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DISCUSSION

OF THE DOCTRINE OF

UNIVERSAL SALVATION:

question:
DO THE SCRIPTURES TEACH THE FINAL
SALVATION OF ALL MEN?"

AFFIRMATIVE. NEGATIVE.
Rev. T. J. SAWYER, D.D. Rev. ISAAC WESCOTT.
APRIL, 1854.

NEW YORK:
HENRY LYON, 548 BROADWAY.
AUBURN :— V. KENYON, 96 GENESEE-ST.
1854.

Entered, according to Act of Congress, in the year One Thousand Eight Hun
dred and Fifty-four, by HENRY LYON, in the Clerk's Office of the District
Court of the United States, for the Southern District of New York.

TO THE READER.

The report of the Discussion here given to the
public, was furnished by M. Beenen, Esq., well
known as one of the best reporters in the city.
Eev. Me. "Wescott has read his arguments in man
uscript, and made such verbal corrections as he
deemed proper. The same privilege has been
accorded to Eev. Me. Sawyee ; but he has availed
himself of it only to a limited extent, being well
satisfied with what he did read, and trusting the
rest to the care of a friend. Both the gentlemen
HAVE CONSENTED TO THE PEESENT PUBLICATION.

DISCUSSION ON THE
FINAL SALTATION OF ALL MEN.

"DO THE SCRIPTURES TEACH THE FINAL SAL
VATION OF ALL MEN?"
AFFIRMATIVE. NEGATIVE.
Rev. T. J. SAWYER, D.D. Rev. ISAAC WESCOTT.
FIRST EVENING.
A discussion on the above question was commenced in
the Broadway Tabernacle, on Tuesday evening, April 4th,
1854, between the Rev. T. J. Sawyer, D. D., pastor of
the Orchard-street Universalist Church, New York, and the
Rev. Isaac Wescott, pastor of the Laight-street Baptist
Church. The Tabernacle was filled at an early hour with an
immense audience — two thousand at least were supposed to
be present. The public interest seemed to be deeply
excited on the topic of debate, and a general desire to listen
to the discussion was manifested. The platform was occu
pied by the disputants, and sundry other clergymen of
various denominations.
The hour for the opening of the Discussion having arrived,
prayer was offered by Rev. Dr. Hodge. Dr. Sawyer then
arose and said :

6 REV. MR. SAWYER.
In opening the Discussion now before us, and to which
we invite your serious and candid attention, you will have
the goodness, I trust, to indulge me in a few preliminary
remarks. There is, if I mistake not, a prejudice against religious
controversy in general, and against oral discussions in parti
cular. The grounds of such prejudice I do not well under
stand, nor have 1 ever been able to see why such discussions
may not be made eminently profitable. Let men holding
different opinions, come together and discuss their matters
of difference with candor and in a christian spirit, and what
injury can it possibly do to the cause of truth ? Perhaps I
shall be told that such discussions are seldom or never so
conducted, and hence the objection to them. Which then
is our duty, to mend our spirits and tempers, and mould
them into a more christian form, or to abandon a good
means for the promotion of christian knowledge, simply
because men are apt to abuse it 1
Not a few seem to think it a matter of reproach to a
christian, if he 'ever seeks for controversy and discussion.
He is said to be an agitator and to love excitement, and to
live only by debate and strife. Such persons little reflect that
every reform has been carried forward by this very means,
and that even Christianity itself has never made a single
step of progress without exposing itself and its advocates to
this censure. In the apostolic times the servants of Christ
were regarded as men who " turned the world upside
down," who wandered about the earth as " pestilent fel
lows," preaching new gods, and introducing a new religion
and new laws. Among these St. Paul was eminent. When
at Athens, that seat of Grecian literature^ and philosophy,
and religion, he not only disputed in the synagogue with
the Jews, and with the devout persons, but also in the

REV. MR. SAWYER.

market daily, with them that met with him. So at Corinth,
the same Apostle —
"Went into the synagogue, and spake boldly for the
space of three months, disputing and persuading the things
concerning the kingdom of God. But when divers were
hardened aud believed not, but spake evil of that way before
the multitude, he departed from them, and separated the
disciples, disputing daily in the school of one Tyrannus. —
And this continued by the space of two years, so that all
they that dwelt in Asia heard the word of the Lord Jesus,
both Jews and Greeks."— (Acts 19: 8-10.)
It was by such means the Gospel of our Lord was carried
forward in the apostolic age. Fishermen and publicans
were the first heralds of the cross ; and the world knows
what they accomplished. Where do we find such fruits
from our elegant churches, and velvet cushions, and satin
ministers, who are too genteel, and whose reputation is too
delicate to allow of disputation. There is one class of men
who are never benefitted by discussion. I mean those
whose opinions are false. When they are conscious of
their weakness, they are certainly not to be condemned for
being tender and chary of them. Such men are politic in
sneering at discussion, and in their endeavors to make
honest and earnest men despised. They had their proto
types in the days of the apostles. There was a whole shop-
full of them at Ephesus — the craftsmen of one Demetrius,
who very well understood by what craft they had their
wealth. When I am either afraid or ashamed to advocate or defend
my religious convictions, in public or in private, from the
pulpit or through the press, I trust I may have the honesty,
at least, if not the grace, to abandon them. Few things
seem to me more contemptible than that professed minister
of the gospel, who, charged with great truths, shrinks from

8 REV. MR. SAWYER.
maintaining them, and then seeks to cover his cowardice, or
his want of faith, by affecting to despise those who attack
them, or by throwing himself upon a dignity as shabby as
his own character is poor. Origen, Luther, Zuinglius, and
other eminent christians, did not shrink from a life of con
troversy. I deem these remarks due to my opponent and myself.
We claim to be honest men, and to be governed by solemn
convictions of truth and duty. On some points of great
moment we differ, and differ widely. And we meet here to
open the Bible before us, and to discuss those points of dif
ference in a candid and christian spirit. God succeed the
right ! Neither he, nor I, nor any one of you all, can have any
real interest in being in error. It is truth, and truth alone,
that can either strengthen our virtue, improve our charac
ters, or increase our spiritual happiness and peace.
The question which we propose to discuss, is simply,
" Whether ihe Holy Scriptures teach the final salvation of all
men f I need not speak of the importance of the question.
It is one that addresses itself to every man's business and
bosom. In every age it has agitated the human heart. Our
own salvation is infinitely dear to us — as dear as our love
of life and of happiness. But our interest does not stop
here. It were a very selfish view which should satisfy us
with a merely personal interest in the redemption of Christ
Jesus. Our loves and our sympathies go out still further.
From the narrow circle of home, they stretch from neigh-
lioihood to neighborhood, and from nation to nation, until
they embrace the whole human family. One thing I may
confidently assert, that whatever may be our faith, and
whatever may be the truth, no human, and, most of all, no
christian soul, can ever be satisfied by a salvation less than
universal. But this is not all. Our question does not concern merely

REV. MR. SAWYER. 9
the destiny of the human race. That would be too narrow
a view of it. By a natural and necessary reaction, it
touches the government of God, under which this destiny
is wrought out ; and, by a still wider influence, reflects
directly upon the Divine character itself. We cannot
separate the law from its operation, nor the worker from
his work. It is the ultimate issue that determines and
crowns every enterprise. Be it high or low, good or evil,
great or small, the end will exhibit its true character, and
display the wisdom or folly, the weakness or power, the
benevolence or the malevolence, of him who originated and
carried it through to its termination.
Our question, then, relates directly to the extent ofthe sal
vation which is by Jesus Christ. In this respect it cannot
fail to attract every one who takes any interest in his own
welfare, or indeed in the Christian religion itself. But it
relates, as I have just said, to the Divine government also,
and to the character of God. Whatever may be its deci
sion, it affects alike all these great questions, and is to throw
a new light over the divine works and the economy of God's
love, or is to mantle the moral universe in a deeper gloom.
It will be my business in this controversy to show that, in
the end, all human souls shall, by the grace of God in Christ
Jesus, be saved from sin, and be made holy and happy —
that the spiritual harmony between God and his moral
creation, which sin had disturbed, shall be restored and per
fected — that " at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under
the earth ; and that every tongue should confess that Jesus
Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father;" so that all
souls, being subjected to Christ, he shall himself become
subject to the Father, " that God may be all in all."
In opposition to this christian and cheering view of the
result of the Divine government, two positions may be
1*

10 REV. MR. SAWYER.
taken ; the milder one, becoming rather popular of late,
which assumes that those persistently wicked, those who
shall, up to a certain time, not have repented and been
saved, shall be annihilated, and become absolutely extinct,
as though they had never been — and the harsher one, which
alleges that the wicked shall be kept in existence, — indeed,
through all eternity, — but banished from heaven and from
God, excluded from all opportunity of repentance or im
provement, and subjected to all the tortures and miseries
of hell forever !
This latter view, being the common one, and one held by
the denomination to which my brother here is attached, is,
I presume, the position which he will assume, and from
which the doctrine that it is my happiness to believe and
preach, will, in all probability, be assailed. There is one
thing in which I doubt not we are all agreed, viz. : that the
wicked must either be reformed and saved, or they must be
annihilated, or, finally, that they must be forever unhappy.
Which of these is to be their fate ?
I shall maintain and endeavor to show, that the final sal
vation of the whole human race is the doctrine of the Bible,
properly interpreted, as it is the doctrine of enlightened
reason, and as it stands in harmony with all our best feel
ings, wishes, and prayers.
In making this appear, I shall, in the first place, show
that this is the end which God contemplated and proposed
to himself in the creation of men. God, I conceive, must
have had some purpose — men always have. You all
remember the argument of Dr. Paley to prove the Divine
Benevolence. He says : —
" ' In creating the world,' God either proposed the hap
piness of his creatures, or their misery, or he was uncon
cerned and indifferent about both. The multiplied instances
of design everywhere around us, prove that he was not

REV. MR. SAWYER. 11
indifferent, and their general tendency to make his creatures
happy, show that he must be good."
I will change the statement somewhat, confining it to the
human race. God, I assume, must have had some object in
view in creating man. It must have been either, first, to
make them all ultimately miserable — or, secondly, to make
a part of them miserable and a part happy — or, lastly, to
make them all happy.
The Scriptures teach us that there is a God, the Creator
of heaven and earth, the Maker of man, and his governor
and king. They teach us that God is infinitely good, " good
unto all, and his tender mercies are over all his works " —
that he is infinitely wise, knowing all things, and foreseeing
all things, " even the end from the beginning" — and, finally,
that he is Almighty, so that whatever he willeth, that he
doeth, and there is none that can stay his hand.
Now in creating a world of moral, and as we believe,
immortal, intelligences, with such capacities as man enjoys,
what should be the object of the Divine Being ? What end
would he propose to himself? What purpose could he
have ? The bible tells us that " for his own pleasure they
were created." But what could that pleasure be, other than
something that was in harmony with his infinite wisdom
and goodness ? In other words, did God create human
beings for the purpose of annihilating them after they had
finished the feverish dream of this life? Or did he create
them for the infinitely worse purpose of casting them
into a hell, and torturing them there through all eternity ?
Would a God of infinite wisdom propose such an end as
either of these ? Could a God of infinite goodness engage
in such a work ? On the contrary, I believe that he created
all men for the great end of being conformed to his own
image, of growing more and more into his likeness, of
becoming holy and happy, and shining at last around his
throne, like stars in the firmament forever.

12 BEV. MR. SAWYER.
I am well aware that this view of the Divine purpose is
sometimes expressly, and often indirectly, denied. Our
Calvinistic Churches teach positively, that God created some
men and angels on purpose to damn them everlastingly.
Calvin himself tells us that some of the human race were
born to the destiny of hell-fire. This terrible doctrine runs
through all creeds and Confessions of Faith belonging to
that school. It was inculcated by its great author, St.
Augustine. It was re-asserted by his Reformer disciple
Calvin. It was clearly taught by the Council of Dort, by
the Westminster Assembly of Divines, in the Old Saybrook
Platform in the Presbyterian Confession of Faith, and every
where, indeed, where Calvinism exists in its purity.
Yet our Presbyterian friends, by an inconsistency peculiar
to error, in their Catechism utter a noble and glorious truth
quite contradictory of their whole system. To the ques
tion — " What is the chief end of man 1 — [i. e., obviously,
what is the great purpose of his creation ?] — the reply is, —
': The chief end of man is to glorify God and enjoy hirn
forever." Now to glorify and enjoy God forever, is some
thing quite apart from being consigned to an eternal hell.
It is, on the contrary, precisely what I believe God made
man for. It is an end worthy of a God of infinite perfec
tion, of a God who is good unto all : and nothing short of
it is so.
The Scriptures teach us that when God had finished his
creative work, among which man stood pre-eminent, he saw
and proclaimed it to be " very good." It was such a uni
verse, peopled with such beings, such natures and destinies
as pleased his infinite wisdom and goodness. He thus saw
the end from the beginning. The purpose was good, the
plan he adopted was good, the issue was good and certain.
It was all "very good."
That great " chief end of man," God has never lost si<rht

REV. MR. SAWYER. 13
of. Through the long track of ages, it has ever stood out in
the clear sunlight of his own truth before him, and steadily
and surely has he been pursuing it amidst all his conflicts
with evil, and under every dispensation of his government.
Too often, alas ! have the dust and turmoil of life, the low,
selfish aims, the ignorance and brutality of man, shut this
great end out from mortal vision, and made the world dark
again. But to the enlightened and believing soul, the holy
Scriptures open a vista once more to that ultimate goal of
human existence, and point it forward to a time when
God's plan shall be perfected, and his great purpose accom
plished in the salvation of the whole human family.
But the scheme which God in his infinite wisdom and
goodness saw fit to adopt was a moral one ; and morality
in a finite being, implies the possibility of sin. If I cannot
disobey God, my obedience is constrained and necessary, and
without merit. If it is not possible for me to do wrong,
there is no worth or worthiness in my doing right. God
made me a moral being, and hence made me capable of
sin. God would have me love him and serve him, but he
would have me do it freely, that he might say to me,
" Well done, good and faithful servant ; enter into the joys
of thy Lord."
God is responsible, if I may use such an expression, for
making me moral, for creating me with capacities for virtue,
for exposing me, if you will, to the possibility of sinning.
Beyond this his responsibility does not extend. That I
have sinned, is an act of my own, and for that act I am
justly held to a righteous account. Hence a moral govern
ment, laws, rewards and punishments, and every thing that
belongs to a state of probation and discipline.
But what I wish you particularly to observe, is, that the
establishment of a moral government, does not at all inter
fere with the great end which God proposed in the creation

14 REV. MR. WESC0TT.
of man, but is one ofthe means to its attainment. As Paul
said of the Mosaic law, that it could not annul the promise
made 430 years before it was given, that that promise
should be of none effect. So here, the moral government
of God, with all of its rewards and punishments — be they
what they may — can not annul the original design of God
— can not thwart his final purposes, — but only promote them.
So far, then, are any of the Divine attributes from being
at war with the final salvation of all men, that they conspire
to demand it. If God is holy, he requires you, and me,
and all men to be holy, because he is so ; and he will never
give us up ; he will never abandon us till he has attained
his purpose. If God is infinitely righteous, and as the
Scriptures speak, loves righteousness, he loves it in his
creatures as in himself, and will never put them out of his
hand till he has brought them to righteousness. The moral
universe must become holy and righteous, because God
himself is so. There must be an ultimate harmony. God
will, in time to come, as in times past, carry on his moral
government till all hearts shall be subdued to him, and all
spirits be filled with his truth and grace. — So I believe, and
so I preach. With the beloved disciple I say — " We have
seen and do testify, that the Father sent the Son to be the
Saviour of the world." " He tasted death for every man."
" He gave himself a ransom for all." And because " the
children were partakers of flesh and blood, he also took
part of the same, that through death he might destroy him
that had the power of death, that is, the devil, and deliver
them who through fear of death, were all their lifetime
subject to bondage."
Rev. Mr. Wescoxt. — That this is a subject of vast im
portance, I am happy to agree with my brother in announc
ing, and with you in believing. It is a subject whose inter-

REV. MR. WESC0TT. 15
ests are as high as heaven, and as enduring as immortality.
And upon the settlement of this question in our own minds
will be connected the dearest interests of our spirits, while
the throne of God shall stand, or angels sing. On this is
suspended the salvation of souls, and in my opinion on our
belief touching this matter is suspended the salvation of
souls. And in regard to the result of this discussion, we cannot
tell what it may be. If it shall be as other discussions have
been upon this great question in years gone by, it will be
the occasion for a few who are Universalists at heart, but
have for some cause or other retained their connection with
orthodox assemblies, to go out and openly avow what have
been the convictions of their judgment heretofore. But
while there shall be one like this, there will be scores of
young men who are on the road to Universalism, that will
pause, reflect, and return.
It is my earnest desire that this discussion may be con
ducted with the spirit of candor, as expressed by my oppo
nent ; and however we may differ in our views in regard to
the doctrines we may discuss, I am confident that there will be
nothing but the kindest personal feelings existing between
the speakers or disputants upon this question. And may
the prayer from every devout heart ascend to the infinite
spirit of God that truth may triumph.
While this is a most important and responsible question
and engagement, yet I have this consolation which my oppo
nent cannot have. If I am in error and he in the right, my
error cannot inflict lasting misfortune or misery upon the
soul. He believes that a period of a few brief years will
bring us, whatever may have been our opinions upon earth,
amidst the ransomed throng that sweep the harps of heaven,
and sing hallelujah in glory. But if I am right, and he is
wrong, then the inculcation of that wrong, as it disposes the

16 REV. MR. WESCOTT.
careless to be indifferent, may result in the undying agonies
of the deathless spirit. I have then this consolation, that if
I be in error, it is comparatively a harmless one. I would
not be understood to say that truth, as such, is not valuable,
and that every item of truth is not valuable ; but I say that
there are some errors that are more injurious by far than
others, and if we happen to mistake one of those fundamental
errors and call it truth, then it results in incalculable misery,
incalculable injury. With what my opponent has said in
regard to the discussion of religious questions I most assur
edly agree in the main. Otherwise I should not have ac
cepted the invitation to discuss this question. Neither is it
new business with me. It is the fourth time in my ministry
that I have been called upon to debate questions similar to
this. I can conceive, it is true, of reasons why good and
honest and talented ministers may decline discussions of this
kind, and yet.not prove recreant to their great calling and
trust. They may be so absorbed in their duties connected
with their pastoral office as in their judgment to leave them
no time for a discussion like this ; or they may have a taste
so hostile to discussions of this kind — a spirit so uncon
genial — as to unfit them for it, and yet be faithful and true
ministers of Christ. But I most cordially agree with him
in expressing my opinion that truth has never suffered by
its conflicts with error; and discussions conducted in the
spirit of christian candor and kindness have never failed to
result in good.
He remarks that in regard to our doctrines we may differ
widely. We do. We differ most widely. We diffe: so
widely that I can hardly conceive of our being different sects
of professing christians — and I make this remark without
any unkind feeling to my opponent or his associates, as men ;
but our Universalist friends themselves declare this as their
conviction. Allow me to read i a extract from one of their

REV. MR. WESCOTT. 17
prominent journals, It professes to be an extract from a
sermon delivered before  is it their general assem
blage % [To Rev. T. J. Sawyer.] Bev. T. J. Sawyer— I
presume before the Convention. Bev. Mr. Wescott — In
which the writer says — " Universalism has a different God,
a different Christ, a different spirit, a different sinner, a dif
ferent sin, a different atonement, a different grace, a different
pardon, a different salvation, a different resurrection, a dif
ferent judgment, a different punishment, a different hell, a
different heaven — in fine, a difference in respect to all the
essential doctrines of Christianity."
So says the Universalist — that they differ with the chris
tian world in these vital points. It is not, then, merely a
difference in some minor points ; it is a difference running
through all the channel from the throne of God down to the
plan of redemption, the entire history of man and the end
less destiny of the human family. Am I wrong, then, in
saying that most important results hang upon tjhe discussion
of a question of this kind 1 There are differences, then
— differences wide, differences radical. If one is true, the
other is utterly and totally false. If Universalism be true,
all that we call Evangelical denominations are utterly and
totally in error. If we are right, Universalism is a system
of complete and perfect errors, from its foundation stone to
its very top stone.
He says no man can be satisfied in his soul with a salva
tion less than universal. I will not touch upon this point
any farther than to say, I hope the time may come when my
opponent and myself may be so swallowed up in the will of
God, as to be happy and satisfied in whatever pleases
Deity. Allow me to say that whatever may be the destiny of the
human family, whether all shall be gathered around the ho'/
throne and praise God forever, or if a part of them volunta-

18 REV. MK. WESCOTT.
rily choosing the way of the transgressor, find the end
thereof, as well as the passage way, to be dark and unhappy,
whatever may be the result, the throne of God will be pure
and glorious. There will be no fault there upon which the
sinner can hang the cause of his eternal ruin. These ques
tions will come up in the course of this discussion.
He says that God must have had a design in creating man,
and that the attributes of Deity — his goodness, his wisdom,
and his power — must render this design favorable to the
best interests of man, and must accomplish it. Allow me
to say that God made man, as my opponent has said, a
moral agent. I fully believe it. But in order to make man
capable of the very highest summit of enjoyment, he must
make him a moral agent. If he made him less than a
moral agent, he never could have arrived at the pinnacle of
mental enjoyment, because whatever good we are forced to
do, renders us not happy. It is only when we have volun
tarily done good that we are happy in the result of our
actions. A simple illustration : Suppose there should be a
family down the street perishing with hunger, and one of
that family comes and steals from you a dollar. You as
certain in a few moments that he has stolen it. You follow
him, and see him as he has just come out from the baker's.
You follow him still farther to his home. You look in and
see them break and devour the bread, and joy begins to
beam in every countenance, as they eat and feel satisfied.
You may say, '¦ Well, poor wretch, I will not call the po
liceman now. You are starving. Eat — enjoy yourself as
well as you can." But it would not give you a hundredth
part of the happiness which you would experience if he had
come to you and told the story of his poverty and starva
tion, and you had voluntarily taken the dollar from your
pocket, and said—" Go to your family." Then you would
look in and see the happy faces, and tears of joy would run
down your own cheek.

REV. MR. WESCOTT. 19
Man, to be infinitely happy, must be made free ; if he is
free, he is capable of sinning, as well as of obeying. I say,
if he is free, if he is a moral agent, he is capable of sinning
as well as of obeying. If God thus intended to make man
capable of the highest enjoyment to which he could arrive,
it involves — I speak with deference — the necessity of making
him such a being as will give him the power of sinking
down in sin and ultimate endless ruin, if he chooses so to
use his moral agency.
You are conscious, my friends, that hear me to-night, that
your sins have been voluntary ones. You are conscious
that God is not to blame for your sin ; that he set before
you the right and the true way. You chose the wrong
way. If you then voluntarily, with all the light shining
upon your mind that now shines, sow the seeds of disobedi
ence and wickedness, is God unjust if he makes you reap
the harvest of punishment 1 No, my friends, God's throne
is clear, whatever be the result to the human family.
But he says the attributes of God positively demand the
final restoration and happiness of the human family. We
cannot judge upon this matter. I boldly say that I am not
able to measure and compare and decide upon what must
be the attributes of Jehovah, or their workings. I, a crea
ture of yesterday, and who know comparatively nothing —
shall I attempt to say that such and such result must accrue
from the attributes of the infinite God of Eternity 1 All
we know about his moral attributes are here in this book.
His natural attributes shine from the works of nature, but
all we know of his moral attributes we learn from the
volume of inspiration. But all his attributes will harmo
nize, whatever may be the result to the human family.
Here let me say that this argument, if it proves anything,
would prove too much for our present purpose. It would
prove that the attributes of God can harmonize with the

20 REV. MR. WESCOTT.
misery of the present, and because the misery of to-day is
consistent with them, the misery of to-morrow may be
consistent, the misery of a week may be consistent, the
misery of a year, of an age, may be consistent, Ihe misery of
eternity may be consistent.
Now, suppose prior to the peopling of this world, two
angels should have been in conversation, if they existed at
that early day, and one of them had said — " I have learned
that God, our Maker, is to establish and people a world,
and," he says, "I have looked through the vista of the
future, and have seen that world filled with tears, and heard
it vocal with groans. I have beheld it an abode of wretch
edness inconceivable. I have seen all the institutions for
man's future good violated and trampled upon, and sorrow
of the deepest die springing and enshrouding the domestic
circle. I have seen the wedded pair unfaithful to each
other, and their whole life embittered. I have seen the
mother abandon her infant and give it up to destruction."
The other angel, arguing from what he knew of the attri
butes of God, would say — " Impossible, my fellow servant.
Why, is not God good 1 And if he is good, he must desire
the best good for all his creatures. Is he not infinitely
wise, and if infinitely wise, he certainly can establish and
people that world so that there shall be there no tears or
sighing. If he is almighty, he can give efficiency to his
goodness and his wisdom.
Now I ask whether that argument would not be equally
good between those two angels as the arguments of my
opponent ]
I need scarcely say in reply that the world has existed for
six thousand years "a vale of tears," a scene of sorrow, of
woe and of agony. And my friend will not argue that all
this misery was necessary in order to make man happy. If
so, the angela must come down for a while, and be misera-

REV. MR. SAWYER. 21
ble in order to be happy. I only introduce this to show
that the misery of some of God's creatures is consistent
with his attributes, and if the misery of some of his crea
tures for six thousand years is consistent with his attributes
I know not why their continued misery and sinfulness
may not be.
I have other arguments which I wish to notice, but pro
bably time will not allow me. Because we are moral
agents, God is not responsible, he says, for our sins ; but
he seems to imply that he is responsible for the conse
quences of those sins. I am not sure that I understood the
gentleman on that point. God has made us moral agents.
He has given us inducements which should have been suffi
cient to cause us to walk in the true and right way. He has
promised us happiness if we choose to walk therein. I
would stand here and vindicate the throne and character of
my God, and say that there is no tarnish upon his govern
ment. But the gentleman says God requires us to be holy,
therefore he will never give us up till he has made us holy.
He here unhappily differs from an old writer, that we believe
is an inspired one. That writer about the closing up ofthe
scripture says, representing Jehovah speaking of his ser
vants — " He that is holy, let him be holy still ; he that is
filthy, let him be filthy still ; he that is unrighteous, let him
be unrighteous still."
And here the message from heaven closes ; beyond that
I dare not say that Jehovah will still prosecute the work of
mercy unto those whom he declares he gives up and leaves
in their unholiness.
Rev. Dr. Sawyer. — My brother congratulates himself,
and very sincerely, I doubt not, on the comparatively happy
position in which he is placed. This is in consistency with
his errors. It is a joy that a great many of his faith have

22 REV. MR. SAWYER.
possessed before him. If I am wrong — if we are wrong —
say they, your faith and the grace of God, as you hold it, is
broad enough to take us all in — that the case cannot be
reversed, because if we happen to be wrong, even innocently
in error, it seems that his God would condemn us all for
ever. I have a better opinion of our heavenly Father than
that. I am happy in this opinion, because this world has
trials and troubles enough, without feeling that there is over
me a malignant power, from whose awful grasp I cannot
wrench myself, and who may, in a moment of his anger,
crush me. He quotes a passage from a sermon that was
delivered at a Universalist Convention, and I do not much
doubt I have said things much like that myself, although
I did not happen to say that. Our views do differ, and I
thank God they differ so widely from what he calls the
evangelical world around us. Their views are revolting,
and, in my opinion, unworthy the great Being who made
the universe, and who placed us so wisely and beneficently
in it. My brother hopes to see the time, and I agree with
him in that entirely, when both he and I will be so absorbed
in the will of God and his goodness, that we shall be entirely
satisfied with whatever pleases the heavenly Father. I be
lieve in that ; and if it were determined what pleases our
heavenly Father, we shall know what ought to please us. I
have before quoted a passage, that God " wili have all men
to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth." God
wills this to be the fact, he desires it, he has made provision
for it, he has sent his Son to effect it, and I do not believe
that he will rest satisfied till he accomplishes it. The pro
phet says Christ shall see of the travail of his soul and be
satisfied ; and when Christ is satisfied, who tasted death for
every man, you and I shall be satisfied, and my brother,
too. My friend says that as man was made a moral being,
he can sink down to endless suffering if he will. Meta-

REV. MR. SAWYER. 23
physically, I do not know that this can be denied ; but what
do you think of the probability of any man's willing it 1
There is, on the one hand, a deep love of life and happiness ;
on the other hand, there is an instinctive dread of misery,
which is as deep as this love of life — then God has so
framed the whole moral universe, that he that sins involves
himself in misery, and he that breaks off from his sins be
gins at once to taste the joys that flow from well-doing.
God calls man every day and hour by his providence and
by his word, to virtue, and truth, and happiness.
We have all, more or less, turned aside from the path of
duty and of life, and have tasted from the bitter cup, by
our own hand put to our lips, and what do you think of the
probability of any man's pursuing a course of wrong and
trampling under foot commandments that he sees at once
to be intended for his happiness, and pursuing that course
throughout eternity, and sinking himself day after day, year
after year, and century after century, and cycle after cycle,
into the depths of hell 1 If he will, he can rise up again.
Sinners, however deeply sunk in sin, can, if they will, be
good again. They may grow in grace, and put on the
garments of heaven, and rise to the throne of the Almighty
through eternity, if they will. Heaven is open to all— an
invitation is given out to all. Think you that all will not
hear ? Think you that the eternal Father will suffer any
of his children to be lost irrevocably, when he can reach
them 1
My brother thinks that we are not able to judge of the
influence of the Divine attribute ; and yet his whole creed
goes on the hypothesis of judging in the matter. He is
not afraid to judge that some men will go to hell forever,
but allows us not to judge that all men will go up to heaven.
I do not know that we can see all things, but we can see
some things — we can see that goodness requires something

24 REV. MR. SAWYER.
besides the torments of hell, and we can see that infinite
goodness must be satisfied with only good results. If we
cannot judge here, I do not know where we can judge at
all. My brother has another difficulty. He thinks my argu
ment, if it is worth anything, proves altogether too much;
and it is a maxim among logicians, that when an argument
proves too much, it proves nothing. He cites a very
beautiful illustration of the angel looking down into our
world and seeing the miseries here, and another angel
arguing that there could not be such a world, with so many
tears and groans, in the government of an all-wise God,
and he concluded by the declaration that if the misery of a
moment is allowable in the government of God — if that be
consistent with the goodness of God, he says, the misery of
an hour, of a day, of a year, and, finally, of eternity, may
be. I think that argument also proves too much, because
this misery belongs to him as well as to me. Now, if it
be consistent with the goodness ofGod that he should suffer
any bereavement, it is consistent with the goodness of God
that he should suffer throughout eternity in the same way.
If it be consistent that all men should suffer more or less
ill this life, it is consistent that all should suffer throughout
eternity in the same manner — if the goodness of God will
allow the one, it will allow the other ; and if it is true that
good men have the most evil in this life, then that mode of
argument will make it out a bad case for them in the future.
This does not follow. If it is consistent for God to allow
me to sin of my own will once or twice, it does not by any
means follow that it is consistent with the goodness or the
will of God that I should continue to sin throughout eternity.
Here is a view worthy of your consideration. When God
made me, he was able to see the end from the beginning —
he kne»v what I would do willingly and of my own self--

REV. MR. SAWYER. 25
he knew how I should sin and suffer — if he had seen that I
would sin and suffer throughout eternity, where was the
goodness in creating me at all ? He was not obliged to
create me — there was no necessity laid upon him to do such
an act ; and what goodness could there be in him when he
saw that I should so violate all the laws of God and my
own nature as to subject myself to eternal torments ? Was
an existence conferred, under such circumstances, a blessing
or a curse 1 If you say a blessing, I should like to have
you show me what would be a curse. If a curse, then I
say God never inflicts such a curse. A good God never
could inflict such a curse.
I argue that the goodness and love of God will follow his
creatures calling them back to obedience, until he succeeds
finally in the accomplishment of his Divine purpose — that
he will not give up and surrender his claim to their alle
giance, obedience and love.
There is a law given forth — " Thou shalt love the Lord thy
God, with all thy heart, and with all thy mind, and with
all thy strength." It is the law of the highest ; it is a
universal law ; it belongs to all worlds, and to all time and
eternity — it is the law of the universe. Neither you nor I
can go beyond it. We cannot escape it — it will follow us
wherever we are ; whether in heaven we shall hear it, or
whether in hell it shall sound down there, and it will con
tinue to sound till we obey. Rely on that. God will
never fetter that law — he will never break off the bond that
he holds over us.
But my brother finds a passage in the Bible where it is
said — " Let him that is unholy, be unholy still," and as he
sees it near the end of the Bible, he concludes that this is
the end of the matter. I doubt that ; there is another end
that we read of, which I will quote to you. It is in a book
quite as intelligible and from authority just as good as that

26 REV. MR. WESCOTT.
which he has quoted. " For as in Adam all die, even so in
Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own
order : Christ the first fruits : afterward they that are
Christ's at his coming. — Then cometh the end, when he
shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the
Father : when he shall have put down all rule, and all
authority, and power. For he must reign, till he hath put
all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be
destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his
feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is
manifest that he is excepted which did put all things under
him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him,
then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him, that
God may be all in all." This has a different aspect you
perceive, from the text which my brother has quoted. We
see no unholiness here — all is subject to Christ — Christ is
subject to the Father, and God is all in all !
Rev. Mr. Wescott. — Perhaps I am very hard to be con
vinced, but I remain unconvinced yet, in regard to the
position I assume. I suppose if I am in error, that my
error will not reflect that lasting injury on me that the
error of my opponent would. It is not merely that the
evil of his error may endanger his own soul — that is not
what I allude to ; it is the preaching of the thing. In
fluencing hundreds and thousands of others to neglect
repentance and faith in Christ, without which the Saviour
himself declares salvation cannot be had. To illustrate
this : — Suppose my opponent and myself standing where
two roads cross, and that a stranger comes and says, " I
understand that in the region beyond, there is a large and
rapid river, over which there are two bridges, to each of
which one of these roads leads. I have heard two stories
about these bridges. One man told me that both were

REV. MR. WESCOTT. 27
equally safe — that I might go which road I pleased, and
that there would be no danger ; but then another man
warned me that one of them was dangerous, and that the
other alone could be trusted. As to one of them, both
agree that it is safe — but some say, that the other is dan
gerous." I say to him — " My friend, the right-hand road
leads to a bridge that every body says is safe. My opinion
is that the left-hand leads to a dangerous one." But says
my opponent, " Never mind, sir, both are equally safe :
take your own choice ; and you will reach the pleasant
land that lies beyond." And now, I ask, suppose this
stranger, who thus inquired, and was thus replied to — sup
pose he should take the left-hand road, and by-and-by
perish in the surging flood beneath. Would there not then
be a little more consolation to my heart, than there can be
to my opponent's 1 That is what I mean. The Saviour has
said that he who believeth not shall be damned. Is it not
better that 1 shall say so ? Is it not safer for me to say so,
and to have you believe that truth ? Is it not safer for you
to believe it 1
My opponent gives us a passage which he means to coun
teract a sentiment I uttered. It is found in 1st Timothy —
" Who will have all men to be saved, and come to the
knowledge of the truth." He first stated that this was
given in the manner of a decree or purpose ; he then said
God wished the salvation of all men, and that this was the
real interpretation of the text in the sense of a decree or
purpose. But nineteen times the word "will have" is used
for "would," and "willing," and "wish," thus: — "Oh,
Jerusalem, Jerusalem ! thou that killest the prophets and
stonest them that are sent to thee, how often would I have
gathered thy children together, as a hen gathereth her brood
under her wings, but ye would not !" The same words !
The will of obstinate man prevails against the " would " of

28 REV. MR. WESCOTT.
God. I believe God takes no pleasure in the death of a
sinner, but would have all men to be saved. He " would"
but they will not. The word, therefore, properly means,
willingness, wish, a desire. That text, therefore, makes
nothing for the final salvation of the whole human family.
Moral agency, my brother admits, and says that so it <
may be possible for a man to continue in sin and misery ;
but he asks what is the probability ? And I, too, ask what
is the probability 1 Is there any argument in analogy 1
Can we argue from the past to the future 1 What has been
the course of the great mass of the human family, for six
thousand years ? This great truth has been sounding in
their ears, that God would have them to be holy and
happy, but the great mass have been vile, abandoned, wicked,
and miserable. Why then should I, without a shadow of
Scripture to support me, why should I conclude that by-
and-by men will change in this matter ? He tells us that,
in time, through the age of eternity, a man may, in an
instant, change his mind, his character, and his condition.
But of this there is not a shadow of evidence from Genesis
to the last word of Revelation. The cross of Christ was
not fixed in hell. The mission of Jesus was on earth.
The theatre of the Holy Spirit, (who alone changes hearts
and educates for heaven,) so far as we are informed in
the Bible, is on earth.
Not only does the Bible give no hint that a man can
change his character and condition in hell, but it teaches the
very opposite. Hear the words of the Saviour — " If ye
die in your sins, where I am ye cannot come." Does this
look like a man changing his character, condition, and life
in hell at any period of eternity, and ascending into heaven ]
Says the Saviour again, in the scrap of history which is
commonly called The Rich Man and Lazarus — " There is
a great gulf fixed between us, so that you cannot pass to

REV. MR. WESCOTT. 29
us." I know how this will be answered to-morrow night.
But I know how, with the Scriptures in my hand, I will
meet the answer. The great gulf is fixed, and no man can
pass thence to us, or from us to you ; and, with the declara
tion ofthe Son of God, that "if ye die in your sins, where I
am ye cannot come." Shall we say that during the cease
less ages of eternity, there can be in those of whom such
words are said, any change of character and condition, any
rising of holiness that can lead to heaven !
My brother, the opponent, alludes to a few remarks that
I offered, in regard to the impossibility of my judging which
is right or wrong from the attributes of God ; and then he
says that I proceed to judge what must be right by the at
tributes. I did no such thing — I shall not do any such
thing. I shall take this precious book, and what this declares
I shall believe — nothing beyond it, nothing to vary from it.
"Who, by searching, can find out God? — who has been his
counsellor — who was brought up with him V All I said,
and want to say, was, that God is perfect, and whatever
does exist must accord with his divine attributes ; but I
said misery does exist ; therefore its existence is in accord
ance with the attributes of God. He asks whether it would
be consistent with the attributes of Jehovah for me to con
tinue in suffering and sorrow during eternity. I answer
frankly, and with humility, " Yes !" If it were not for the
triumph of the cross, if it were not for the agonies of our
Saviour in the garden of Gethsemane, if it were not for the
suffering and the death of Christ, by which divine justice is
satisfied in him who will with humble penitence and faith
lay hold of Christ, it were fully consistent with the attributes
of Jehovah that the sinner should remain in an eternity of
suffering. If I leave out Christ, the attributes of Deity
would harmonize with my everlasting suffering.
My brother, the opponent, says that the law has gone

30 REV. MR. WESCOTT.
forth from Jehovah's lips — " Thou shalt love the Lord thy
God." and that, therefore, obedience must be yielded to
God. But is this so ? How are the facts 1 Is obedience
yielded to God 1 Do men do the will of the Lord and keep
his laws ? Did not Jehovah also say on Sinai's trembling
mount, " Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy
God in vain?" And have men never taken his name in
vain ? It is not more certain that God promulgated that
law, than it is that men do not yield it obedience. In past
life they have not done it ; and in this respect we argue
from the past forward into the future.
Then, our brother tells us, in relation to that declaration,
" Let him that is unholy, be unholy still," that I supposed
because it was written near the close of the bible, it there
fore was the ending of the thing. I did not ; though there
is argument in that too, for which I should thank him. For,
indeed, it is in the last chapter that God caused it to be writ
ten. Also, he said Jehovah would never abandon the sin
ner. I introduced a passage to show that Jehovah would,
at last, abandon the sinner, and that argument remains un
answered, as indeed it must,being no more or less than unan
swerable. He brings what he claims as much to his purpose. Take
the 15th chapter of 1st Corinthians, after you go home;
read it, and you will find that the only subject which occu
pies the Apostle is the resurrection from the dead ; teaching
that, as by one man's transgression sin entered into the world,
and death by sin,-so by the power of Christ in the resurrec
tion shall all be raised from the dead : but every man in his
own order, or character. And what shall be the character
istics of the raised dead ; what their condition as regards
bliss or woe, we must learn from other passages of scripture.
Christ gives us light upon this subject. Hear him: "The
hour is coming when all that are in the graves, shall hear

REV. MR. WESCOTT. 31
His voice, and shall come forth, they that have done good
unto the resurrection of life, and they that have done evil
unto the resurrection of damnation." Such are the words
of inspiration. God himself it is who tells us, through
his Holy Spirit, that, in the resurrection, they that have
done evil, shall come forth to damnation

SECOND EVENING.
Prayer was offered by Rev. H. R. Nye, of Brooklyn.
Rev. Dr. Sawyer. — I would not fail to express the grati
fication I feel at this token of religious interest. I had
doubted whether there was so much feeling on the subject
of religion in the city of New York, as this large assem
blage shows there is. In the whirl of business and of
fashion, in the various pursuits of a worldly nature, men
are too apt to forget the higher interests which belong to
their souls, and to allow these great concerns which touch
their spirits, and reach to an eternity in their importance, to
pass almost unheeded.
In introducing our discussion this evening, I beg to call
your attention for a moment to two or three points pre
sented by my respected opponent last evening. He still
thinks that he has the safe side, and, as it were, two chances
of salvation to my one. There is, in the first place, his
own, and in the second place, (and I apprehend he relies on
that with some degree of confidence) the chance which
Universalism itself furnishes him. If his creed is false, he
says, mine will take him up, and that I think very sure.
But, on the other hand, if mine is erroneous, infinite misery
may be the result. I do not know that I perceive the reason
of this. I cannot but think that God looks with approba
tion upon every honest man, and upon every earnest en
deavor to know the truth. I do not believe he will be

REV. MR. SAWYER. 33
over-hard with those who, amid the conflict of opinions in
this world, sometimes err. But if this view of my brother's
be good for him, I would suggest that it is far better for
other people of more pretensions than he. Archbishop
Hughes, for instance, being an Archbishop of the Mother
Church, which has hedged itself round with a pale of exclu
sive salvation, is very sure that he is safe, and every other
person that is in that church ; while he is by no means con
fident that those are safe who are out of it. Therefore my
brother should hasten to get into the Catholic Church, in
order to be sure of being on the safe side. But I am apt to
think it is better to seek our safety in the truth — in alle
giance to truth and to duty. My brother almost reminds
me of a pious and prudent school-teacher, who, in conver
sation with her friend of the same calling, said, rather con
fidentially, " Do you teach your children to bow whenever
the name of the devil is mentioned V " No," was the
reply. " But I do," said the first ; " I think it is safer !"
She did not know into whose hands she might fall by-and-
by, and thought it best to be on the safe side. (Laughter.)
Now I do not recognize the peculiar safety of thinking ill of
God — of ascribing malevolent passions to him — of contem
plating him as a tyrant and a monster. Can we persuade
ourselves that God will love us the better for thinking so
ill of him 1 — that he will be more ready to save us because
we doubt his will to save us, and his goodness in saving us ?
If the opinions which are too prevalent in the Christian
church are true, I do not see much safety for any of us.
But the great danger seems to be, in the opinion of my
opponent, not in the fact that I believe this doctrine, but
that I preach it, and that others may be induced to believe
it. It may not affect my own personal salvation, but it will
stand desperately in the way of yours ! I do not perceive
the logic of this. If a doctrine does not harm me, it seems
2*

34 REV. MR. SAWYER.
to be something of a reason, at least, why it should not
harm you. If it do not affect my salvation, why should it
affect that of others ? But the truth is (a truth the world
is very slow to learn, but it is time it had learned it,) there
is only one ground of safety, and one ground of christian
and scriptural character, and of moral character. My bro
ther here is not good and pious, is not devoted to the service
of God, because he fears hell, but because he loves God, and
delights in his service. My religion rests on the same
ground, and so does yours. In all this audience there is
not one single person who would dare to confess that he
loved and served God because he feared hell ! Not one !
He would be ashamed of such a confession ; and well he
might be ! If there is nothing in God — if there is nothing
in his moral government — if there is nothing in his good
ness — if there is nothing in his grace to inspire love, and to
urge us on in the pathway of obedience, — where shall we
find it ? Not in this world, not in the world to come. If
it does not cling round the throne of God, it is nowhere.
We shall not find it in the belief of an endless hell. Some
craven spirits, perhaps, may be prevented from doing great
evil by the fear of hell. Thus far may that fear go, but no
farther ; this is its goal. But I wish the religious world
would become wiser, and understand the fact, that all reli
gion and religious piety is to spring from love, and from
love alone.
My brother thinks that when St. Paul said " God will
have all men to be saved, and come to the knowledge of
the truth," he meant only that God was willing — m^ant, at
the most, desire — not determination, but only desire. If you
will read the passage, I think the apostle's language rather
stronger than that — " I exhort, therefore, first of all, that
supplications, intercessions, prayers, and giving of thanks
be made for all men, for kings, and all that are in authority "

REV. MR. SAWYER. 35
(and these are frequently among the worst men we have,)
" that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, in all godli
ness and honesty." Thus universal prayers are good in the
sight of our Saviour, because God " will have all men to
be saved. For there is one God and one mediator between
God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself a
ransom for all, to be testified in due time." — (1 Tim. 2 :
1-6.) But I do not wish to rest my argument on a single word
or passage. The doctrine which I desire to inculcate and
enforce is confirmed, it seems to me, by the whole tenor of
the bible, and especially of the New Testament. " God so
loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that
whosoever believeth on him should not perish but have
everlasting life." — (John 3 : 16.) It seems to be a cardinal
doctrine with my brother, as well as with all the evangeli
cal, so-called, of the day, that there is no repentance, and no
possibility of salvation beyond this present life — that the
whole work of the Redeemer is to be accomplished here, or
no where. He says, " the cross of Christ was not fixed in
hell." But he should remember, that Christ, after being
crucified, descended into hell, whether the cross was fixed
there or not. — (See Acts 2 : 27-31.) In confirmation of his
view, he quoted these words, " If you die in your sins,
where I go you cannot come." There is no such passage.
I think the words he quoted would be improved if read as
Jesus uttered them, thus, " If you believe not that I am he,
you shall die in your sins." — (John 8 : 24.) Michaelis, one
of the most learned of the Germans, says the phrase is am
biguous, and may be taken according to either the Greek
idiom or the Hebrew. If taken according to the first, it
would mean, as we most naturally understand it, that they
should continue in sin to the moment of death ; but if ac
cording to the Hebrew, it means, " you shall die on account

36 REV. MR. SAWYER.
of this very persecution of me." And this was literally
fulfilled. Those Jews did thus perish. But if my brother
thus views this declaration when made to the Jews, I should
like to know how he will view it when made to the disciples
themselves : — " Little children, yet a little while I am with
you. Ye shall seek me, and as I said to the Jews, whither
I go, ye cannot come, so now I say to you." — (John
13 : 33.) Does that look like the view my brother has
given ?
He mentioned a little scrap of history — the story of La
zarus. Now, most Commentators, in every age of the
Church, have been in the habit of looking on it as a parable ;
not a history. But let us look at it as history. Then, if it
would be consistent with itself, heaven and hell are, for
tunately, very near together ; so near that their occupants
severally can see and converse with each other without
difficulty ; also, heaven is not above, and hell beneath, as in
the usual phraseology ; but, (as the Greek words express,)
are on the same level — though there is a gulf between
them. So if our friends be in hell, or if we be there, we
shall have the satisfaction to see them on the other side !
If this story be a piece of history, then the inhabitants of
hell are not such graceless wretches, such incarnate devils,
as the religious world has generally regarded them. Look
at this rich man. He desired relief for himself, but when
he found that could not be obtained, he was anxious that
his five brethren should be warned — thus showing that all
humanity had not died out of him, but that there was some
good even in the depths of hell. It seems to me there is
still left there virtue enough to kindle into a flame. Such
a man cannot be altogether beyond the possibility of sal
vation. Among the most absurd, I think, of evangelical doctrines,
may be regarded that which my brother has introduced —

REV. MR. SAWTER. 37
that the whole work of man's redemption is confined to this
short and momentary life. If this be true, why is Christ
called the Saviour of the world % Take this premise, that
there is no salvation beyond this life, and how can such a
name be applied to him % Look at the facts ! Four
thousand years had passed away before Christ came, and
through that period untold millions had lived and died
without the knowledge of a Redeemer, without the possi
bility of salvation. Since that period, whole nations,
empires indeed, have lived and died in utter ignorance of
Christ, and he cannot save any of all these ! They are lost
beyond all recovery ! And yet he is called the Saviour of
the world ! He is said to have " died for all men," — to have
" tasted death for every man," — to have given himself a
" ransom for all, to be testified in due time ! " I ask the
meaning of these passages on that supposition. But this is
not all. I would like to know why we should limit the
mercy and grace of God to this short life? Is it not limiting
the Holy One of Israel ? Is it not setting up our boundaries,
and saying to God, " thus far shalt thou go, and no farther ?"
And this, too, when God teaches that Christ came to save
the whole world ! Oh ! we will listen to him, and not to
the words of mortal lips.
I do not wish to dwell on these points too long, because
they are unimportant in some of their bearings, at least on
the great question. I desire, however, to fix in your minds
certain fundamental principles, which you can apply your
selves, carrying them with you, to help you in reading the
bible, and understanding its testimony. Last evening I
endeavored to show you that a God infinitely wise, good
and powerful, who was about to create a race of immortal
intelligences such as we are, must have had an object in
view. I argued that his object must have been good, since
it was the product of goodness. I showed that the end

38 REV. MR. SAWYER.
which God must have contemplated, and alone could con
template, was to make a class of beings capable of glorify
ing him, and, as the Presbyterian Catechism has it, of
" enjoying him for ever." That is, he would make beings
that would grow in his likeness, and become holy and
happy. I should be gratified to have my opponent say whether he
regards this as the true end that God had in view, or whether
he supposes God had some other end 1 Will he favor us
with his opinion on this important subject 1 Important in
deed ; because I feel confident that what God undertook to
do, he will accomplish. This is the original purpose of God;
this is the final cause ; this is the chief end of man. God
has never changed. He never will change. Why should
he ? Is he not the same that he was when he created our
first parents ? Has anything occurred in the broad universe
to affect his purpose ? What possibly could occur 1 I can
not conceive it ? He has never lost sight of this great pur
pose 1 but has been, and is still, accomplishing it ; and will
continue to pursue it until it is accomplished.
In confirmation of this view, I wish to call your attention
to one or two other facts, which it seems to me go far to
strengthen it. One is, that in the Gospel, God is represented
not only as good, (as he is represented in the Old Testament,
and as he speaks himself in nature,) but he is declared to be
love! The beloved disciple says, " God is love." Now if
this is his nature and character, his essence and life, it needs
no argument to show that love must appear in all his ways
and works. Love must have been engaged in the creation
of the universe : must have assisted in forming our exist-
ence, and our intellectual and moral faculties ; must have
ordained the laws by which man was to be governed ; must
have been consulted in the attaching of penalties to them ;
and must be present when they are inflicted. If there be a

REV. MR. SAWYER. 39
hell, Infinite Love made it, filled it, reigns over it. There
is no part of all God's dominions where love is not supreme.
" I cannot go," says the poet, " where Universal Love smiles
not around." If there be eternal torments, love inflicts,
pervades, and consecrates them. I ask any man to sit down
a moment and reflect on this — a universe to be filled with
misery — for punishment, eternal torments — a God regarding
the everlasting pains of his own children, and triumphing in
their damnation through eternity ! If this be love, tell me,
in the name of heaven, what would be hatred? If this be
God, tell me what the Devil could do that would be worse ?
Not only is God love, but he is our Father. That must
be the central point around which all the truths of the Gos
pel cluster, that is the great fact Christ came to reveal, and
from which flow all the blessings and glories of the Gospel.
He has a Father's love, solicitude and care for us, and in our
welfare feels all a Father's joy. That Father created us
with a Father's design — knowing our character ; knowing
whether it was for heaven or hell ; knowing whether we
were to glorify and enjoy him forever, or to sink into an
abyss of unutterable, endless torment. God is still our
Father. Of this be sure, my friends, without yielding your
minds to be too much affected by criticisms on particular
words and phrases of the sacred scriptures. This central
fact stands here rooted and grounded. All particulars must
bend to it. God is our Father, and God is love ; and what
ever is inconsistent with these truths must be false, because
it contradicts first principles. And whatever is in harmony
therewith, we must recognize as presumptively true. There
is no point more clearly made out than that to which I am
directing your minds. Keep, then, these principles before
you. Understand that God made us, and what he had in
view in creating us. Understand the elements engaged in
the work — love, goodness, and paternal grace. With these

40 REV. MR. WESCOTT.
principles it is scarcely possible for us to go astray in our
conclusions. Rev. Mr. Wescott. — It is always well for us to pause at
our various stages, and see what we have accomplished. It
would be well to take a survey in order to see what was ac
complished last evening. There were two things, I think,
pretty clearly settled — the one was in regard to the attri
butes of God, and their consistency with human misery. In
examining the subject last evening, we ascertained that God
is perfect in all his attributes ; we ascertained that sin
and misery have existed under the government of God, for
nearly six thousand years ; therefore, sin and misery, under
the government of God, are not inconsistent with the attri
butes of Deity. Hence the attributes of the Deity do not
absolutely demand the final salvation of all men. Although
the gentleman attempted to disturb them this evening, yet
it is in the mind of the whole assembly, that these things
were settled last evening.
There was another question settled last evening ; settled
by a quotation from their works, and admitted by my
brother, the opponent, namely, that Universalism is a religion
entirely and totally different from that of all other religious
opinions held in Christendom ; that it is so different that it
has " another God, a different Christ, a different spirit, a
different sinner" — (remember I am quoting from a Univer
salist work) — " a different sin, a different atonement, a dif
ferent grace, a different pardon, a different salvation, a dif
ferent resurrection, a different judgment, a different punish
ment, a different hell, a different heaven — in fine, a difference
in all the essential doctrines of Christianity." My brother
was not obliged to concede that this was his opinion, unless
he pleased— and yet he did so. Although he was not the
man who uttered those things, (neither did I pretend he was)

REV. MR. WESCOTT. 41
he admitted the sentiment as his. The question, therefore,
is not between two sects of the great Christian family — but
if Universalism be the truth of the bible, or be true, all
other sects professing Christianity are utterly without its pale.
There is no Christ, no Bible, but Universalism. This and
all the rest are utterly and entirely the antipodes of each
other. We agree in no essential point, from the throne of God
to the endless destiny of the human family. There may be
some agreement in some minor things, but not in the essential.
So far, then, we proceeded last evening. Now of course
I could not know, neither was it to be expected I should,
what would be the arguments employed this evening. My
opponent reviews, in a measure, some statements made last
evening ; a casual remark that if our religion prove to be
false, and his to be true, in a few years we shall be as safe
as they ; but if theirs prove to be false, and ours true, ours
does not save them. He says he cannot exactly see the
force of this. I think there are some here" who can. I
think if there is a young man here who has ever felt the
weight of sin, has ever shrunk under the gathering frown of
Jehovah's countenance, as revealed by the bible and his
Spirit; and then to silence an awakened conscience, has
drank in Universalism — he, I think, understands what is the
danger. This is the danger — no man will do for his salva
tion what he does not believe necessary. If he believes
nothing necessary, he does nothing ; but sits down in care
less inactivity and unconcern, till he sinks into the abyss of
endless woe.
I did not say that my brother's error would not affect his
own salvation, (at least I did not mean to say so.) I meant
that his own was not only imperilled, but also that of those
to whom he preached. This was the twofold respect
wherein the danger lay. With regard to the remarks about
entering the Catholic church, or bowing when the name of

42 REV. MR. WESCOTT.
the devil is mentioned, I pass them over. Our question is
not — " Does the Catholic church teach the final salvation of
all men V but " Do the Holy Scriptures teach the final sal
vation of all men V It matters not to me what the Catholic
church may say, what the Baptist church may say, what the
Presbyterian church may say, or what any other person
may say. But what do the Holy Scriptures say about the
matter ? They tell me that he who believeth and is bap
tized shall be saved ; but he that believeth "not shall be
damned ; and the Apostle tells us that that faith which is
requisite to salvation, which works by love, and purifies the
heart, (as no other faith does,) is faith in Christ Jesus. He
tells us that it is love only that leads men to serve God ;
that love is the motive-spring of Christians in the service of
God, I admit. But unconverted men have no love of God
in their hearts.
I will give the gentleman one text, and let him do it
away if he can ; a text uttered by the lips of our Divine
Redeemer — " You have both seen and hated both me and
my Father." I will give another ; the Apostle character
izes the whole unconverted world as " haters of God."
Where, then, is the motive-spring to action, if love alone
move the sinner when by nature he hates God ? Oh, it takes
the thunders, pealing from Sinai's cloud-capped summit, to
wake the slumbering sinner and make him feel. The opera
tion of love, as a motive power, begins not in the heart, till
it is planted there by the operation of the spirit of God.
He presents again this text — " Who will have all men to
be saved," and quotes the context, and tells us God urges
prayer for all men, because he would have all men to be
saved. But he forgets the text as soon as read; there is
no such text. God urges to pray for all that are in author
ity. Why 1 that we may have quiet and peaceable lives.
In relation to that text, I did not touch the subject whether

REV. Ml!. WESCOTT. 43
it is our duty to pray for all men, neither do I now. But
I explained as to the force of the expression — " Will have
all men to be saved" — that it meant only God's willingness
or wish ; and that my brother has not attempted to contro
vert. I examined this point again, and I have found forty
instances in which the Greek word thelo signifies wish or
willingness, not purpose or decree; boitle, with its deriva
tives, was generally Paul's word for decree.
As to confining the opportunity for securing salvation to
this world, and as to the means of grace, he says his oppo
nent should have remembered that though the cross of
Christ was planted here, yet after his crucifixion Jesus
entered into hell. I have no means of remembering what
I never knew. I repeat, / have no means of remembering
what I nevet knew ! I know this is taught in the dogma of
some professed christian churches ; but, do the Holy Scrip
tures teach it ? Whenever he shall introduce the only text
that can be pointed to, that intimates in the most remote
manner, that Jesus Christ entered hell, I shall be ready to
examine that text. There is but one ever referred to, but,
on examination, we find it means no such thing.
I thank him for correcting my quotation of the text last
evening. It was quoted from memory only. " If you die
in your sins, where I am ye cannot come." I take the text
as it is — " Ye shall die in your sins, whither I go you cannot
come." If this be better for his purpose he is welcome to
it, it is in John 8 : 21. There he gives his reasons — that
they were rejecting him ; had not faith in him ; and if they
persisted in their unbelief, they never could enter where he
was. My brother asks if Christ made this remark to the Jews,
what shall we think of his having made it to his disciples ]
I will tell you. The blessed Saviour adds in connection —
" I go away to prepare a place for you, and when I have

44 REV. MR. WESCOTT.
prepared a place for you, I will come again and receive you
to myself, that where I am you may be also." That is the
difference, my brother ! He says you shall not come now ;
but when I have prepared the mansions I will come and re
ceive you to myself.
He alludes to the case of the rich man and Lazarus, but
there is no need of further remark, till he enters more fully
into the matter. I wish he had entered into a critical exami
nation, but he leads in the argument. He puts up his
structures and I have only to knock them down about his
ears. (Laughter.) But, suppose it is a parable ? it is
known to him as well as you, that the parables of our divine
Lord were based on one of two things, either well-under
stood historical facts, or conceded principles of truth. Here
we have an instance of the former kind. When Archelaus
wished to obtain the kingdom for himself, he went to Rome
to secure the favor of Cassar. The Jews opposed his de
signs, and when he returned he slew them. On this trans
action is based the well-known parable — " The Kingdom of
Heaven is as a man going into a far country to receive a
kingdom," &c. The offenders were brought to his feet and
slain. Every one understood this allusion was to Archelaus at
once. Then, if parables are built on principles of truth, so
far as that passage goes it is apparent there is miser}^ as
well as happiness in the other world. But, because these
figurative expressions are used, my brother says the matter
cannot be one of history. He gives only one figurative
expression ; though we have Abraham's bosom and the gulf
between. But he does well to use his texts sparingly, as
he will have very few left by the time he has done. But is
it true that the introduction of a figure of speech into a por-
tion of history destroys its historical truth, and makes it a
parable ? A writer giving a description of the battle of

REV. MR. WESCOTT. 45
Trafalgar, says that the cannon of Nelson breathed forth
fire and death. Therefore the battle of Trafalgar is all a
parable, and there is nothing in it ! We shall probably
have more of this!
My brother then tells us that the day of probation offered '
to man, in which he may repent, could not be confined to
this world, for so, Christ could not be the Saviour of the
world. And he gives his reason ; because four thousand
years had elapsed before Christ came at all into the world,
and thus no salvation was obtainable by those who lived
before him. Now, I do remember one thing (though I do
not remember that Christ went into hell,) I remember there
was shown one who was as a lamb slain from the founda
tion of the world ; and I suppose it was like this, when the
sword of Divine justice glittered over the guilty heads of
men, Jesus Christ entered into a covenant of grace with the
Father, by which he pledged himself in four thousand years
to pay the price for man's redemption, and God accepted
his bond, and acted on it as if it were paid. Mercy enters
into the world ; a voice is heard crying, " Sinners, repent !
Even those who believed since the foundation of the world,
have entered heaven in triumph."
In speaking of God being love, he says, " God is Love."
But has God no other attribute 1 He gave us two others
last night. God was not only loving, but also wise and
almighty. But now, it seems, he is all love; there is no
such thing as justice in the eternal government! But one
of old said, " Justice and judgment are the habitation of
thy throne." And then my brother quotes the poet, in
which he did very well ; because he could do no better —
having no scripture to quote : — " I cannot go where love is
not." I want to know what the Bible says. The Bible
tells us we can go where wrath is. That Jehovah is
infinitely lovely, God forbid that I should question for a

46 REV. MR. SAWYER.
moment ! But all his attributes are employed in the
sovereignty he exercises over the children of men.
He closed by bringing to your recollection that God is
the Father of all.
I cannot take his authority that God is the Father of the
whole human family, in any other sense than that wherein
he is the Father of the stars, the sun, the moon, the ocean,
everything that exists, by creation. But he means a dearer
and closer relation ; and the reason I cannot agree with him
is that he differs with Christ. " You are of your father, the
devil, and his works will you do," says Christ to another
class of persons. Where Christ is on the one hand, and
my learned and pleasant friend on the other, I must, after
all, say that I adhere to Christ. I know that men in the
Old Testament once said, " Have we not all one father ?"
But there was no response, no proof, that God was the
Father of the unconverted. We are made children of God
when the Holy Spirit breathes into us a new principle of
life — the spirit of Jesus. Then, says the apostle, " We
become children by adoption." Adopted into his family,
we have the spirit of his Son sent forth into our hearts — (it
was not there before) — crying " Abba ! Father !" There is
the text of Scripture, that unequivocally establishes this
point — Christ has said, " You are of your father, the devil."
Until the same Scripture plainly and pointedly declares the
contrary, we must believe that while some are the children
of God, others are not, but are children of the devil.
Rev. Dr. Sawyer. — I find some little difficulty in talking
to you now, my friends. I had rather supposed before, that
you were all the children of God ; but now, it seems, that
some of you are probably the children of the devil ; and I
could not, with any propriety, address you all in one class,
or consider you all as belonging to one family. The wonder

REV. MR. SAWYER. 47
to me is, how you happen to look all so much alike, if you
come from two different fathers. Why ! what a strange
doctrine we are having here ! Did anybody ever before
suppose that the Saviour meant that a part of men were
the children of the devil really — or no worse than that they
had an evil spirit — a lying and murderous spirit 1 So far,
they were the children of the devil. Still, I think God
must have made them ; else he would not have undertaken
to govern them. If not his children, they were not his
subjects. If not his subjects, he had no rights in them, no
claims over them, no business to interfere with them. God
is the Father of all men. If it be not so, then how are we
to use the Lord's prayer — " Our Father, who art in heaven V
You may not be, I may not be, an imitator of God ; but,
we are his children, nevertheless, and we are capable of
becoming his children in spirit, as we are in fact.
My brother says I quoted poetry. I did. He has given
us what is not poetry, but what is exceedingly poetical! He
tells us that when the sword of Divine Justice was gleaming
over this sinful world, the Son of God, Christ, entered into
a covenant with his Father, to give him a bond, which God
was to accept, just as though it had been paid — and then I
do not know what all ! Where does he find anything like
this in the Bible 1 There never was a dream of the human
imagination more groundless. Christ entering into a cove.
nant with his Father ! — Christ staying the hand of justice !
Christ interfering with the moral government of God ! The
Bible tells us that God so loved the world that he sent his
Son to teach the truths of everlasting life. Christ tells us
he came not of himself — not to do his own will, but the
will of the Father that sent him. Everywhere Christ speaks
as if he had been sent on a mission — had a work to do. He
came to do the will of his Father. And our brother talks
about a covenant made between them, and a bond being

48 REV. MR. SAWYER.
passed, and that bond being accepted. I wish our theolo
gical world could get out of this commercial mode of treat
ing such themes as this ! It is unworthy of the age — it is
inconsistent with every expression of the Bible — it gives
false views of the whole transaction. If you do not find
an ultimate ground of human redemption in the love of
God, free and unbought, you will find it nowhere. Christ
did not come to reconcile God to us, as this commercial
theology teaches. Christ did not come to stay the hand of
justice. But he came to reveal the Father ; to make known
the grace of God ; to teach the love of God ; to inspire
man with the love of that great Being who so loved them
as to send him on his benevolent mission ; and who loved
us, too, not as our brother here would have us believe,
when we became good, when we had grown pious, when we
had consecrated ourselves to the service of God ; but loved
us while we " were yet sinners," his " enemies by our
wicked works." " Scarcely for a righteous man," says the
apostle, " will one die ; yet peradventure for a good man,
some would even dare to die. But God commendeth his
love towards us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ
died for us." The cross of Christ, on which our Saviour
died, was not reared by the justice, nor by the hatred of
God. It was not set up for the purpose of dispensing with
the hatred or the justice of God. But he who, in token of
compassion and love, spared not his own son, but delivered
him up for us all, how shall he not, with him, give us all
things ?
Our Saviour did, indeed, say, " you have both seen and
hated both me and my Father." I wish my brother had
told you to whom he thus spoke. It would appear to have
been the most righteous class of that day ; pious, godly men,
men of great prayer, men of great religious pretensions.
The Scribes and Pharisees were the very men against whom

REV. MR. SAWYER. 49
our Saviour launched his severest censures and condemna
tion. They had both seen and hated him and his Father.
The common people heard the Saviour gladly. They
listened to his voice ; they followed him, and believed on
him. I do not think that God has made us so that we are
born to hate him. I am apt to think that our hatred of God
grows up in some less legitimate way than this. I think it
would be quite possible to teach children the truth, in such
a manner, and at such an early age, that they shall never
know the dread of God ; never tremble under the apprehen
sion of his curse ; never hate him. But this is not to the
point. My brother dwells on Universalism as being the antipode
of everything " evangelical." I believe this is so, as the
word " evangelical" is now understood. God is a being of
infinite, of universal love. He has sent us a Saviour to teach
us of his universal grace ; and the Saviour's atonement was
made in favor of all men, universally— to change men to God,
not to change God to men. There are always two kinds of
theology ; one begins by making man like God ; the other by
making God like man ! We need not question, for a mo
ment, which is true, and which false. The great sacrifice
of Christ was offered to make men kind, humble, and good.
Is not that the true religion which represents God as the In
finite Fountain of Goodness, and Christ the brightest reflec
tion of it ? We differ ; but we are not so far apart that we
shall not see eye to eye yet. If the world goes on for forty
years more, as it has for twenty years past, even I may
stand among the evangelicals. (Laughter.) I am not quite
sure I do not stand among the true evangelicals now. What
is evangelism 1 It is the Gospel, and the Gospel is " good
news," and " glad tidings."
I return to the most important part of my brother's re
marks. He says it was settled last night, that sin and mis-

50 REV. MR. SAWYER.
ery under the government of God, are consistent with the
attributes of God, and that, therefore, it was settled that the
attributes of God do not absolutely demand universal salva
tion. I doubt whether that was settled last night. I am
of the opinion it will not be settled in that way to-night.
That sin and misery are, in some degree, consistent with the
goodness and love of God, is certain ; because we see sin
and misery in this world where God reigns. That sin and
misery, continued through eternity, would be consistent with
the goodness of God, is a very different proposition, and by
no means to be made out by the same argument. I look
upon sin, (and misery as its consequence) as a temporal phe
nomenon, incidental to a moral system, in which finite be
ings are engaged. It is incidental to such a scheme as God
has established in this world of ours. I showed last even
ing that, our nature being moral, it was possible for us to
sin, and that, therefore, it is right and just that we should be
punished. But, that this punishment should be continued
through eternity, does not follow ; because that would make
punishment, which is only a means, an end. It would be
confounding all principles and modes of reasoning — a confu
sion which I observe my brother to be involved in, He has
no end in view — he contemplates no great and good end of
God in this world and in the creation of our race ; there is
no end that is worthy of God. Punishment, in his theory,
is as much an end, as anything else. Yet every one who
views the subject aright, must see that punishment is only
a means — something that incidentally belongs to sin. It
must, of course, be proved that sin is endless, before it can
be shown that punishment is so.
Let me endeavor to illustrate the idea ofthe existence of
evil, and of punishment, particularly. We are passing a
house, and hear the cry of a child in great agony. Instant
ly we hasten in aud find a parent punishing his child. We

REV. MR. SAWYER. 51
inquire the cause, and learn that the child had been refrac
tory and disobedient. But, we observe that the punishment
is excessive and severe, and we ask why the parent thus
chastises — what object he has in view? " Object!" he re
plies, " what do you mean by the object ?" " What do you
propose in punishing that child ?" " I propose to punish
it!" "But have you no other object in view?" "No!"
" And how long do you design to continue the punishment ?"
" As long as it lives !" What should we think of that man ?
What kind of a father would that be ? Does the Father in
heaven, of whom our brother speaks, do this ? He has
children, too. He proposes to punish them, too. But for
no other end than punishment ? Is there no good beyond ?
No improvement? No hope of a salutary end? Why, if
I were to say that my brother governs his family in that
way, and state it as a matter of fact, to this congregation,
he would regard me as calumniating him ; and I should suc
ceed remarkably well, if I were not brought before the au
thorities to answer for the calumny. " Before I was afflicted,"
(or punished,) says the Psalmist, " I went astray ; but now
1 have kept thy word." (Ps. cxix. 67.) " We have had
fathers of our flesh," says the Apostle, " which corrected us
and we gave them reverence : shall we not much rather be
in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live ? For they
verily for a few days, (or for a season,) chastened us after
their own pleasure ; but He for our profit, that we might be
partakers of his holiness." (Heb. xii. 9, 10.) That is the
object — not punishment for eternity ; but that they may be
made partakers of holiness. And that is an object worthy
of God, consonant with infinite goodness and love — while
anything less cannot be.
I hope my brother will not abandon this point. I want
him to make it clear that endless sin and suffering are con
sistent with the goodness, love, and paternity of God — with

52 REV. MR. WESCOTT.
all his characteristics of love — with even his characteristic
of justice. When this is done, he will have accomplished
a great purpose. And he will have done something more,
too : he will have thrown not alone over our minds, but
over the whole universe of God, a mantle black as night.
For if such a result is possible in one case, it is possible in
two, three, four, all ! And the world God made through
the promptings of goodness, and filled with beings to glorify
and love him, may end, at least, in being a world of torments,
over which, malignantly brooding, God sits solitary and
alone, without a single soul that he has created, to love him
or do him reverence.
Rev. Mr. Wesoott. — I do not know if there is any pos
sibility of settling the question. What I said in regard to
the attributes of God is the following :
God is perfect in all his attributes. You will not deny
that. Sin and misery exist under his government. I sup
pose you will not deny that either. Therefore sin and
misery, under the government of God, are not inconsistent
with his attributes. If my brother, the opponent, denies
that, then he must show that God's attributes are not in
harmony. Hence, I said, the attributes of God do not abso
lutely demand the final salvation of all men. Any man
that can get away from that, is welcome to it. You may
as well attempt to turn over the Green Mountains with a
two-foot lever ; it is incontrovertible.
He said, on rising, he could not call you all the chil
dren of God. I agree with him. I fear he cannot ; I wish
he could. He tells you the class Christ called the children
of the devil, were the best class of their place and time.
Perhaps so ; but I think it very likely that they were
not converted. Christ called them the children of the
devil, because they were the children of wickedness ; —

REV. MR. WESCOTT. 53
as lying, slanderers, murderers, as their father, the devil,
was — just the truth ! But my brother failed to give you a
single text of scripture, intimating that all men are the
children of God. Now, do not blame him ; he would give
it to you if he could ; but he couldn't, for it is not there !
(Laughter.) It is a sad truth that by wicked works, we are the ser
vants of sin, and the children of the fall, and of its leader
or parent, the devil. There is one way by which you can
be adopted into the family of God : but that way is not on
his views of the death of Christ. If he were correct, there
would be an impassable gulf in our way to God. He is
mistaken. Christ did bear our sins on the tree ; whereby
God can now be just, and yet justify the sinner — for he is the
justifier of him that believeth. But I shall not enter into the
argument of the death of Christ at this time. I wish my
brother to be more explicit in showing what place he gives
to Christ. If he does not, I hope, before the discussion is
closed, to give you my views of the plan of redemption.
But it is my business to follow him.
I did not say that God did not love us, till Christ came
and died for us. I only said that, by nature, we did not
love God, and that, therefore, love could not be, in us, a
motive power towards obedience to him — that we could not
love God till love was shed by the Holy Ghost, into our
hearts. If he can controvert that, let him do it. I hope he
will, to-morrow evening, tell us why Christ died, and what
place, in his system, Christ holds. He tells us there is
a difference between the two religions, Universalism and
that of others ; and the one contemplates the making of
God better. I must only say it must be his. Our religion
does not attempt any such thing as making God better. I
never knew that even Universalists added that to their
opinions. But there are strange things, and things unheard

54 REV. MR. WESCOTT.
of, in the days of Murray, seventy -five years ago ! He
tells us he expects to stand, by-and-by, among the Evan
gelical Christians. Well, there is some hope. I believe he
is better than many others. He admits some punishment
beyond the grave. There is some hope of him ; and when
he comes among the evangelical, we will welcome him, and
then how easy will his task be, when he has passages on
every page of the Bible to support him, instead of having
to look and look, and take the poet at last !
As to his illustration of the punishment of a child by its
father, I think I last night clearly enough showed the object
of God in creating men. Now, I do not intend to be
diverted from the logical and natural course. But I will
say, I believe God created man for his own glory, and gave
him the means of serving and obeying him. But men do
not do that here. He will not dare to tell you that God's
design in making men was that they should act as they do
here; that he designed every murder, theft, all wickedness,
and sin, in this world — although he is a pretty strong
fatalist. But he will hardly take the ground that every
thing that exists is by the determinate purpose of the great
and good God.
He quotes the passage of the Psalms — " Before I was
afflicted, I went astray," and explains the word afflicted, as
if it really meant punishment ; but affliction is not punish
ment. Strange confusion of terms ! The one is the gentle
discipline of the parent towards his erring child ; the other,
may be the imprisonment for life of the incorrigible dis
turber of government. When a man is an incorrigible dis
turber of the peace, and commits a specific crime on which
justice can lay her hand, we imprison him for life. Shall not
God have the same power, during the spiritual life, as we
during the natural life ? But the discipline of a father towards
his children is a very different thing. God deals with his chil-

REV. MR. WESCOTT. 55
dren differently from what he does with the children of the
devil. If men will not yield obedience, they shall, neverthe
less, bow the knee before him ; if they will not yield willingly,
they must, as subjects of his power. He calls on me to prove
not only the existence, but the reason of endless punish
ment. That is more than is in the bill. The question
which we discuss is — " Do the Holy Scriptures teach the
final salvation of all men ?" Men are in misery and in
sin. You must get them into heaven. We seek
the facts which God has established, without presuming
to judge of the motives of the Almighty. Allow me to
remark, (and with this I will relieve your patience for the
evening,) that the same reasons which induce me to re
ject Universalism, ought to induce you to reject it. I wish
to give you, in closing, one reason why I cannot be a
Universalist, according to their own explanation of what
Universalism means ; and to preface what I have to say,
let me quote from the Gospel Banner, of Feb. 20th, 1841, a
Universalist paper. Speaking of endless misery, the writer

" We believe it to be the greatest error of our time. Put
all the other errors of the world in one, and these would
not equal in magnitude that to which I refer. Is it any
longer a wonder that we, as Universalists, should employ
so much of our time in preaching and writing against this
great error ?"
To this sentiment their papers and pulpits respond ; this
is their great purpose ! Now, I cannot believe Universal
ism because it would represent my Saviour as acting an
inconsistent part in the whole of his ministry on earth. He
lived, labored, and preached, among a people who believed
in endless misery — (" and this the greatest error of the world
mightier than all the rest put together,") for it is conceded
that Jew and Gentile believed it. And yet he labored.

56 REV. MR. WESCOTT.
preached and toiled, and never a word escaped his lips
against this the greatest error of the whole world. Can I
believe that my Lord and Saviour, coming on purpose to do
the world good ; to preach the truth to them ; being in the
midst of the greatest error the world ever saw, preached for
three years and a half, and yet never uttered a word to
oppose and correct the error, that they might forego it? He
was in the habit of exposing other errors. He rebuked
their superstitious washing of hands, and their tithing of
mint and anise ; their long prayers, and yet exclaimed, " Ye
generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of
hell ?" Such words uttered by him who was all truth, to
men who believed in eternal punishment ! What else could
he mean than that hell is eternal ? Yet, if Universalism be
true, Christ was a Universalist. Still he did not preach and
expose this " great error," equal to the sum of all other
errors !
As Universalists feel bound to employ most of their
time in preaching and writing against this "horrible
error," and as Christ employed none of his time for
that purpose, I must inevitably conclude that Christ was not
a Universalist ; and as Christ was not, neither can I be. This
is a conclusion from which we cannot escape. If Universal
ism be true, it represents my Lord and Saviour as acting a
very inconsistent part in all his mission and ministry.

THIRD EVENING.
The Rev. Mr. Miller, of Yonkers, having offered a
prayer, Rev. Dr. Sawyer said —
My learned opponent has offered a criticism on the Greek
word rendered will in the passage " God will have all men
to be saved." It is very important for him to ward off the
force of that passage. He therefore tells us that this word
signifies a wish, a desire, a willingness that all men should
be saved, and not a determinate will or purpose. He seems
to have examined the New Testament critically, and his
judgment in the case is undoubtedly entitled to considera
tion. Yet I am sorry to say that his criticism contradicts
directly the opinion of Dr. Edward Robinson, Professor in
the Union Theological Seminary in this city, whose scholar
ship is unquestioned, both in America and Europe. He
says that " issXoi signifies to will, to wish, to desire, im
plying active volition, and purpose, and thus differing from
/3ou\ofj.ai. According to Dr. Buttman, the distinction between
^o6Xojxa.i and Se'Xw is that the latter expressed an active vo
lition, and purpose ; the former a mere passive desire, pro
pensity, willingness."
I quote these words for the sake of correctness, and not
because they are important for my purpose. For if God
desires, or is in any degree willing that all men should be
saved, I should like my opponent to tell us when God will
have any less desire. I believe that God is the same, and

58 REV. MR. SAWYER.
will never change ; and of course will never cease to will
that all men shall be saved and come to the knowledge of
the truth. St. Paul tells us, Eph. 1 : 9, that God having
made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to
his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself, that
in the dispensation of the fullness, he might gather together
in one, all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and
which are on earth, even in him. Here this is shown to be a
will oi purpose.
I confess that I was taken somewhat aback by the bold
and hardy declaration of my brother — brother if we chance
to have the same father — that God is not the father of all
men, but that a portion of our race are children of the devil.
It seemed to me an unusual position even in the straitest
sect of orthodoxy at the present day ; and the statement of
the fact as it lies in the bible is important here.
I laid down the proposition last evening, and now repeat
it, that God is the Universal Father, or Father of all men !
In proof of this proposition, I wish you to consider
1. That God, and not the devil, made man. He made him
in a manner different from any other thing or creature that
he created. " And God said, let us make man in our image,
after our likeness. So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God created he him." My argument here
is, that man is the child of God, because God made him in
his own image. Now amidst all the ruins of sin, this image
has not been utterly obliterated. The fall did not abolish
it. It remains still ; for after the flood, when God was giv
ing laws against murder, he said : " Whoso sheddeth man's
blood, by man shall his blood be shed ; for in the image of
God made he man" — thus clearly recognizing something
divine in him.
So St. James, speaking of the tongue, says : " Therewith
bless we God, even the Father, and therewith curse we men,

REV. MR. SAWYER. 59
who are made in the similitude of God." Men, then, are
the children of God, because God made them, and made
them in his own image and likeness, and of course God is
their father.
But God is represented as the father of all ; the evil and
the good, the righteous and the wicked. In his sermon on
the mount, Christ was teaching the multitudes thus : " Ask,
and ye shall receive ; seek, and ye shall find ; knock, and it
shall be opened unto you. For every one that asketh, re-
ceiveth, and he that seeketh, findeth, and to him that knock-
eth it shall be opened." And to encourage them in so ap
plying to God for the grace they needed, he said : " What
man is there of you whom if his son ask bread, will he give
him a stone, or if he ask a fish will he give him a serpent."
And now the conclusion : " If ye then, being evil, know how
to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall
your Father in heaven give good things to them that ask
him ? But I say unto you, love your enemies ; bless them
that curse you ; do good to them that hate you, and pray
for them that despitefully use you and persecute you, that
ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven ;
for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good,
and sendeth rain upon the just and the unjust." Here men
are directed to love their enemies, &c, that they may be
the children (in spirit, characteristically) of their " Father in
heaven." Again: The prophet Malachi says: " Have we not all
one Father ? Hath not one God created us ? Why do we
deal treacherously every man against his brother ?" My
opponent says this was spoken by the wicked people. I
beg his pardon. It was spoken by the prophet against
wicked priests whose lips should keep knowledge, but who
seem to have dealt treacherously by profaning the covenant
of their fathers, and especially by denying that God wa.s

60 REV. MR. SAWYER.
their common father. He then said : " Now, O ye priests,
this commandment is for you."
Once more : St. Paul says there is one Lord, one faith,
one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is above all
and through all and in you all."
Look once more : St. Paul among the Athenians laid
down the doctrine that " God hath made of one blood all
nations of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and
hath determined the times before appointed and the bounds
of their habitation ; that they might seek the Lord, if haply
they might feel after him and find him, though he be not
far from every one of us. For in him we live and move
and have our being. As certain also of your own poets
have said, for we are also his offspring — (My opponent had
a great deal of amusement last night because I quoted a
christian poet, but here we find St. Paul quoting a heathen
poet.) — Forasmuch, then, as we are the offspring of God,
we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold,
or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. And
the times of this ignorance God winked at."
Having now made it apparent to every mind that God is
the Father of all, you will at once recognize the reason of
all his government and his grace. God loves us because we
are his children. God sent Christ because we are his child
ren, and sent him to seek and to save that which was lost.
Man, though a child of God, had wandered from him and
was lost. He was like a sheep gone astray, and Christ, the
great shepherd and bishop, was sent to save him. I con
clude that if God is the Universal Father, 1st, he can never
lose his interest in his children. They are dear to him and
he will never forsake them. Since the Lord will not cast
off forever — " but though he cause grief, yet will he have
compassion according to the multitude of his mercies, for
he doth not afflict willingly, nor grieveth the children of

REV. MR. SAWYER. 61
men." And 2dly, that he will ultimately gather them to
himself, as St. Paul teaches when he says that the creature
or creation shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption
into the glorious liberty of the children of God ; and again
when he says that God will gather together in one all things
in Christ.
In my previous argument I have shown that God our
creator and moral governor is infinite in his wisdom and
goodness and power ; that he is love, and finally is our
father. I have shown that in creating our race, he must
have had some object in view, and an object that accorded
with his own infinite perfections. " The chief end of man
is to glorify God and to enjoy him forever." This object my
brother cannot, dare not deny. If the bible is true, nothing less
than this could have been his purpose. And this high purpose
he has never relinquished, never for a moment lost sight
of, and never will till it is ultimately and perfectly attained.
To show that this is the case, I invite your attention to
a few facts in the history of his moral government.
1. When our first parents had sinned, and God called
them to receive their sentence, it appeared that they had
been seduced from their-allegiance to God and to duty by
the serpent. And on the serpent, therefore, God pronounced
the heaviest curse ; " Because thou hast done this thou art
cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field ;
upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the
days of thy life. And I will put enmity between thee and
the woman, and between thy seed and her seed : it shall
bruise thy head and thou shall bruise his heel." Persons
who live in the country know what is meant by bruising the
head of a serpent. They know that a bruise on the head of
a serpent destroys his life. This is true whatever may be
the nature of the serpent.
Christ is the seed of the woman, for he was " made of a

62 REV. MR. WESCOTT.
woman made under the law." Christ then is to bruise the
head of the serpent, or destroy him. The apostle tells us
that ''Forasmuch as the children are partakers of flesh and
blood, he also himself took part of the same, that through
death, he might destroy him that had the power of death —
that is, the devil — and deliver them who, through fear of
death, were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
The devil is to be destroyed. His head is to be crushed.
But not only is the devil to be destroyed, but his works are
to be destroyed also. St. John tells us that " he that com-
mitteth sin is of the devil, for the devil sinneth from the
beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifest
ed that he might destroy the works of the devil."
Rev. Mr. Wescott. — I presume the congregation will
not forget the very lucid and connected argument to which
we have listened, if I should attend to one or two things
concerning last evening's discussion, before proceeding to
the dissection of the argument which has been presented to
us to-night. Last evening I stated, in the course of some
remarks which 1 had occasion to offer, what I deemed to be
the character and condition of man. I said that I looked on
man as a sinner, and consequently exposed to the sentence
of the just and most equitable law of the Lprd our God,
which law consigned hirn to the wrath of the offended
Deity : — but, that Christ had entered into a covenant with
the Father, to pay a price to the claims of divine justice,
and thus to open a way by which sinners might, through
repentance and faith, be forgiven by their offended and
outraged God, restored to holiness and thus to happiness.
My brother, the opponent, in deference to these views
which I had expressed, undertook to say that there was no al
lusion in the Scriptures to any such covenant. That was his
statement, quite clearly and unequivocally set forth. He

REV. MR. WESCOTT. 63
said the whole thing was no more than a mere imagination
of modern professed orthodoxy. But, for my part, brethren,
I would rather appeal to " the Word and the Testimony."
I wish to read three verses from the sacred volume, the sole
repository of God's truth unto salvation ; and then to ana
lyze them ; and, after that, to leave them for your con
sideration. I turn to the 53d chapter of the prophet Isaiah,
and that, I presume, no one will deny, relates to Christ ; —
although I should not indeed be too certain, such strange
things does it fall to our lot to see in this age of progress.
These are the verses to which I now wish to ask attention :
— " Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him ; he hath put him
to grief; when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin,
he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the
pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand. He shall
see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied : by his
knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many ; for
he shall bear their iniquities. Therefore will I divide him
a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with
the strong ; because he hath poured out his soul unto death :
and he was numbered with the transgressors ; and he bare
the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgres
sors." Now, what is a covenant ? It is an agreement
entered into by two persons or parties, whereby it is under
taken that each shall do certain things ; or that one shall
do, and the other receive, as the case may be ; but, it is
a compact entered into, implying duties to be discharged
and privileges to be conferred. I need not take your time,
(whether my brother opponent, be convinced of the fact
or not) in laboring to prove that here God the Father
speaks, and speaks of His Son, Jesus Christ. Now, let us
analyze. We find, evidently, that the chapter relates to
Christ ; that there are two parties ; that Christ, the God, is
one of these parties, and that God, the Father, is the other.

64 REV. MR. WESCOTT.
On the part of the Son there are six things stipulated, which
He shall do. One is, that His soul shall be made an offer
ing for sin ; another is, that He is to be put to grief ; ano
ther is, that He shall bear the iniquities of the people ;
another is, that He shall pour out His soul unto death ;
another is, that He shall be numbered among the transgres
sors, (treated like one, because He steps into the place of
one ;) the sixth is, that He shall make intercession for man.
In the next place, on the part of the Father, there are three
things stipulated — -That a seed shall save him, and that this
seed shall last for ever ; that prosperity shall attend the
plan embraced in the covenant ; and that He shall have a
portion with the great and the mighty. Such are the terms
of the covenant. No man, without the command of sophis
try, equal to that you have listened to for the last half hour,
can deny that ; none can ask you to doubt it, without first
involving you in a fog, which, however, can be easily dis
pelled by the effulgence of sacred light. And now, let U3
ask — Has Christ fulfilled His part? We answer, Yes.
Has He a seed to serve Him ? We answer, Yes. Has the
plan of redemption prospered? Let the untold millions
that sweep the harps of glory to-night, answer this question.
Let all who die in infancy, in every land and clime, redeem
ed by the blood of Christ, answer ! Let countless throngs,
who now, thereby, glorify God in heaven, answer ! Let
more than half the human family, when gathered home,
answer whether prosperity attends the plan of salvation !
Let the throngs of angels who, when Emmanuel went home
to His glory in the courts of heaven, rejoiced as they heard
God address Him — " Sit thou at my right hand until
I make thy foes my footstool," answer ! Oh ! I pity
the man, in my soul, that has not learned something
of the plan of redemption, by which the sinner can
reach heaven ! And yet, we were told, last night, that
there was no allusion to it in the Holy Scriptures '.

!

REV. MR. WESCOTT. 65
I shall not enter to-night into the consideration of the
vicarious sufferings of Christ ; that matter I must now leave
for another occasion. There is one other thing which I must
advert to before entering on the consideration of the
remarks made by my brother this evening. 1 must ask
friends to excuse me if I be somewhat inaudible — the defect
is due to a hoarseness under which I am laboring, and have
been since the commencement of this discussion. The case
ofthe rich man and Lazarus has been frequently alluded to,
and to that I wish more particularly to direct your attention
this evening. I will not take up your time with a repetition
of the whole, as I can repeat its substance, and that will be
enough ; I doubt not it will be acceded to by my brother
who is my opponent. Now, Jesus Christ does not call this
a parable. He says there was a certain rich man, clothed
in purple and fine linen, who fared sumptuously every
day ; and there was a poor man, named Lazarus, who, sick
and full of sores, lay at his door, begging for crumbs, which
fell from the rich man's table. Both died : and, in hell, the
rich man lifted up his eyes— (that was after he was buried,
and Lazarus had been carried by angels into Abraham's
bosom;) the rich man lifted up his eyes, and sought for
relief; it was denied him, even while he saw Lazarus in
happiness ; and Abraham told him not only that no relief
was to be given him, but even that it was impossible, for
a gulf was fixed between the places of the two, so that none
could pass from either to the other. Is there any proof in
addition needed ? What more can any reasonable, dispas
sionate mind desire? And consider, not only the plain
statement of the awful facts themselves, but the circum
stances under which this statement was made. Here they
are : The Jews to whom Jesus Christ uttered this parable,
(if it be a parable,) believed, really and absolutely believed,
in an endless, future punishment. Let this rest upon your

66 REV. MR. WESCOTT.
minds — I repeat it ; the people to whom Christ uttered those
thirteen verses believed firmly and unreservedly in an end
less future state of punishment. Bear in mind, (I ask you
again) that this thing is very direct. And now, let me
ask, in the name of the plain reason which, in the light of
scripture availeth to guide all men to a knowledge of the
truth of God, let me ask under a due sense of the awful
importance of the question, its dread import to me, and you,
and every one that lives — let me ask is this language of
Christ calculated to strengthen this belief in future punish
ment, or, is it calculated to weaken it ? If future punish
ment were an error, would Jesus Christ utter language like
this to persons who believed in endless punishment, —
language which was so well calculated to strengthen such a
belief? Would he not rather have uttered words to rebuke
the error? We are told that both men died, and the rich
man was in a place where he lifted up his eyes, being in
torment. In what place 1 " In the abode where separate
spirits are" — the abode of the dead. The word employed
is not the word that is rendered " hell" in other places, it is
true ; but let the word be what it may, the place was a
place of torment. I make this remark to save my adver
sary the trouble of criticism. The word is " Hades," which
does not, in itself, imply, of necessity, either punishment or
happiness, but, according to the circumstances wherein it is
used, and the connection in which it is to be taken, it may
mean either. We are plainly told that this man was in
torment — and that settles the question. My opponent
seems to dwell, as if a something that gave him sure footing,
on the nearness, as he will have it appear, of the two places.
Lazarus, he thinks, was not at so great a distance from the
rich man ; the place of punishment he finds wonderfully
near the place of happiness. But all that makes no
difference ; near or far makes no possible difference ;

REV. MR. WESCOTT. 67
although we may note that the rich man is said to
have seen Abraham " afar off." But it is all the same
— we do not know how far a voice can be heard when
God fits the atmosphere for that end. With regard
to the " gulf" and " Abraham's bosom," we admit that
these are figures ; but two figures do not destroy the
whole narrative, nor the intent of it. The rich man sees
Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. He lifts
up his voice and says, " Father Abraham, send Lazarus
that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and
cool my tongue, for I am tormented in this flame."
Bear in mind that Christ says first, that he died, then,
that he was buried, then that, in hell, he lifted up his eyes,
being in torment ; that he prayed for a favor, and that it
was denied him ; and this language the great teacher
uttered in the ears of men who believed " the greatest
error that the world ever saw " — " the sum of all errors,"
if Universalism be true, — without a single reproof to show
his condemnation thereof! What other conclusion could
the Jews come to than that Jesus meant to confirm their
conviction ? Look at the hopelessness of the matter.
" Send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in
water and cool my tongue, for I am tormented in this flame !"
No, no ! The words are too plain, and unbiased reason
cannot for a moment doubt their import. Again : there
was a great gulf between, and " they that would pass from
hence to you, cannot ; neither can they pass to us that
would come from thence." There was no hope — no hope
— no single star — no, nor even one single ray of hope !
And then he that was in torment asks another favor : " I
pray thee, therefore, that thou wouldst send him to my
father's house, for I have five brethren, that he may testify
unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment."
Ah ! he remembers the influence he had over those men :

68 REV. MR. WESCOTT.
he had led them astray ; he had been their guide into error ;
he had, perhaps, taught them Universalism ! and now he
would send Lazarus to warn them, — why ? " Lest they
come to me and pour on my head the deep and dire execra
tion of betrayed, and lost, and damned souls, — the blood
guiltiness which I cannot wash away !" That is why he
wanted Lazarus to go to his brethren. In fine, the Jews
believed in eternal punishment : Christ related to them
those things as you have heard them ; they believed and
he related ; what, then, could they suppose but that he
believed the same ? Let us take the matter home to our
selves, and ask, What would be the effect on our own
minds if Jesus Christ stood here, and addressing us, uttered
the same things ? That is the way to view the matter, and
to judge of its weight and import.
And to this view the Scriptures elsewhere agree ; to this
truth the warnings of God in almost every page of the
Bible are directed. Let me read three or four of these —
my time will not admit of my adding more. In the pro
phet Hosea, God says : " For the wickedness of their doings,
I will love them no more." And yet my brother, the
opponent, tells me I cannot go where God's love will not
follow me. So he says ; but, in the name of the God of
heaven, the prophet Hosea says, " For the wickedness of
their doings I will love them no more." Again, we read :
" If we sin wilfully after that we have received the know
ledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for
sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery
indignation which shall devour the adversaries." Did Paul
believe these things ? If not, why did he not tell the de
luded people not to tremble at this fiery indignation ? But,
no ! he told them the truth ; if they rejected Christ there
remaineth no vicarious offering; "no more sacrifice for sins;
but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery in
dignation, which shall devour the adversaries !"

REV. MR. WESCOTT. 69
Oh, sir ! these words of Jesus and of Paul will stand
when the pillars of the heaven and the earth shall tremble
and totter to their fall ! — [Applause. Mr. Wescott re
quested that those who coincided with his views would be
good enough not to signify their assent in that way : his
task, he said, was a solemn one, and he had entered on it
with trembling, although without any fear as to the result.
In the conviction of my judgment, (he added) the result of
this debate will deepen the wailing of lost spirits forever,
or heighten the songs of joy that shall be poured forth
around the Everlasting Throne ! He then resumed in the
following words] : The apostle, speaking of certain wicked
men, says that they have " an evident token of perdition."
Iu II. Peter, 3 : 7, we read, " But the heavens and the earth,
which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved
unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of un
godly men !" Have these words a meaning ? Has lan
guage any plainness more positive than this ?
Allow me now to remark, with regard to the first criti
cism of my brother, the opponent, on the Greek words
©s'Xw and BouXo^ai. I wish he had given his own view •
because I think he has more critically examined this text
than Professor Robinson. I would accord with his view of
Robinson's Greek and English lexicon, but I have examined
this in every place where de'Xw occurs in the New Testament ;
I have examined it patiently, and there is not a single
instance in the New Testament where it clearly means " to
ordain or decree :" the word which the apostle Paul gene
rally uses for purpose or decree is BaXi?, or some of its
derivatives. 1 have no more doubt that Ss'a.u signifies to
wish, (nor has my brother) — no more doubt of this being
its primary, literal meaning, than I have of the meaning of
any other word in the Greek tongue, or of any English
word.

70 REV. MR. WESCOTT.
My brother asks how chanced it that we, part of us, were
made the children of God, and part of us the children of
the devil. The idea that struck me was that chance was a
very strange word from his mouth, after all that he has told
us for two evenings of the unvarying results of everything
that Jehovah has wished. I said that part of the human
family were properly, in consequence of their wicked works,
called the children of the devil. I admitted that all men
are God's creatures, in the same sense as are the sun and
the moon, and the stars, and the cattle on a thousand hills ;
but I claimed that, as by wicked works they imitated the
devil, they were properly termed the children of the devil.
My authority for this is Christ. I do not know if that is
good authority with you; it is with some who love the
mercy-seat, and who feel that, with the authority of Christ
they are safe. Have you followed my brother closely
through his reasoning ? It is this : — Though I asked him to
produce a single text wherein the whole human family are
said to be the children of God, he altogether failed to do so.
We have had a good many things told us ; and then, be
cause of those things, we are the children of God ! I might
say, the sun riseth in the east ; and then with as much pro
priety assert that we are, therefore, the children of God, all
of us. The language of the prophets is not that which
teacheth us like this teaching. The bible has this dictinc-
tion, that those who are God's by spiritual birth are the
children of God— those only ; there is nothing to show that
this sonship can be attained unless through the Messiah, and
everything to show that, through Him, it can. That Adam
was called so is evidently proper; he was a child of God ;
and so was Seth ; but in a few years, we find a distinction
made ; part are called the sons of God, part the sons of
men — the sons of men, not of God ! and this in a few years
after Adam was termed the son of God ! There is no text

REV. MR. WESCOTT. 71
found yet which declares the whole human family the sons
of God. My brother goes to Christ's sermon on the mount,
but the nearest thing to his purpose he gives us from that, is
this — " Be ye good to your enemies !" And who denies
that we should be good to our enemies ? So should we all
be, that we may imitate our Heavenly Father, " who maketh
his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth
rain on the just and on the unjust."
But there is no hint given us that these unjust were God's
children. No ! no ! ! Jesus Christ has said : " Ye are of
your father the devil, and his works will ye do." This is
my authority, and it is sufficient for me !
He then introduces a passage (in Ephesians, I think, it
occurs,) where the apostles preach that there is one Lord,
one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all. This is
the nearest he gave, to his purpose ; but, mark ! there comes
a qualifying phrase at the end — " Father of you all." You ;
who are " you ?" Ah ! not the sons of the devil — but those
who were then addressed — the saints, the church at Ephesus !
Truly, well might it be said that God was the father of
them all ; but were the whole human family, or are they,
saints of the church at Ephesus ? 1 presume my brother will
hardly take that ground.
He raised quite a laugh, and a little clapping, when he
referred to tbe apostle Paul quoting poetry, and told how I
had made some pleasing remarks. I do not pretend to any
excellency, or even proficiency, in this art. In preaching, I
never try to cause a laugh ; I never did ; though I fear I am
at present in some danger of learning. But, the difference
is that Paul quoted from a heathen poet a sentiment which
the bible everywhere sustains ; while my brother quoted
from a poet a sentiment which I do not find, nor has he been
able to show, that the bible anywhere sustains. That is the
difference ; a plain one, and, in this discussion, at least, a

72 REV. MR. SAWYER.
rather important one. But, as I have already observed, I
do not and cannot blame my brother. He would willingly,
gladly, quote the bible if he could ; but he can't ; therefore
he has recourse to poetry. On almost every page the bible
declares that there is a land where only wrath reigns.
My brother said, before he got through, that those wicked
men were the children of the devil only by wicked works.
That is all I contend for. And yet, they are the children
of God ! Strange men, that have two fathers ! God their
father, and the devil their father ! Oh, my friends, this
sophistry amounts to nothing ! We must, at last, come
down to plain scripture declarations. The simple question
is — Do the holy scriptures teach the final salvation of all
men ? I was glad to see my brother attempt to resort to
the scriptures. I like to see it ; it is a good sign. I am
free to say, he does better on his side than I could do on
it ; but his effort seems to me to be, so far, an entire failure.
If the bible does not teach the unending misery of sinners,
neither does it teach endless happiness, nor an Eternal
God — for all are based on the same proofs, as we shall find
before we have closed our discussion.
Rev. Dr. Sawyer. — My opponent has a great reverence
for the declarations of the scriptures when they are appa
rently on his side ; but he does not seem to regard them
quite so highly when they are directly opposed to his views.
I presented two or three, which seemed to me to teach
doctrines which lie at the very ground of the doctrine of
the final salvation of all men, and which he has not regarded
at all. I proved to you, as I thought, by the scriptures,
that the serpent, the old tempter, whatever he is, is to have
his head bruised by the seed of the woman, and that the
devil is to be destroyed. Now, if this is true, and the
works ofthe devil, which we know to be sin, are destroyed

REV. MR. SAWYER. 73
also, I should like to know how we are to make out hell's
endless torments, and why all men should not be holy and
happy. I have two or three other things, which I wish to
suggest to my brother. Away back in the distant past,
God was pleased to choose Abraham, formerly called Ab
ram, to be his servant, and the father of a new race and an
especial people. He made him various promises of a very
remarkable character, among which was this, — that he
should be the father of a great nation ; and this at a time
when there was no earthly prospect of his having any child
ren at all ; and, finally, He promised him that in him and
in his seed all the families and nations of the earth should
be blessed. After he had been tempted, as the scriptures
represent it, of God, to go and sacrifice his son Isaac, and
after the command had been withdrawn, the angel of the
Lord called to him, a second time, out of heaven, and said,
" By myself have I sworn, saith the Lord, for because thou
hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine
only son, that in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiply
ing I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and
as the sand which is upon the sea shore ; and thy seed shall
possess the gate of his enemies : and in thy seed shall all
the nations of the earth be blessed." This promise was
repeated to Isaac, and again repeated to Jacob, with very
slight, and merely verbal alterations. As He had sworn to
Abraham, their father, so He would now swear to them
that they should see themselves the heirs of that great
promise. It was a pretty broad promise, that in their seed
all the families and nations of the earth should be blessed ;
it was a gracious promise too, full of encouragement and
hope, not for them only to whom it was made, but to
others also, who knew not of it. Let us, now, inquire a
little how this promise was regarded in the New Testa
ment ; we know well enough how it stands in the Old ; how
4

74 REV. MR. SAWYER.
it was made the ground of all God's dealings with the child
ren of Israel. In the Epistle to the Galatians, St. Paul tells
us that " The scripture, foreseeing that God would justify
the heathen through faith, preached before the Gospel unto
Abraham, saying — in thee shall all nations be blessed."
This promise, as it was made in the Old Testament, is
called, by Paul, the Gospel, in the New; and God's promis
ing it to Abraham was preaching the Gospel, God, fore
seeing what He would do, preached the Gospel before.
Then says the apostle, " Now to Abraham and his seed
was the promise made." He saith not, and to seeds, as of
many ; but as of one. " And to thy seed, which" (says
the apostle) " is Christ." Now you perceive the signifi
cancy. There might have been some obscurity in the Old,
but there cannot be any in the New. Christ Jesus was the
seed of Abraham, and in Him was the promise to be ful
filled ; in Him were all the nations, families, and kindreds
of the earth to be blessed. Nor was St. Paul alone. St.
Peter, in the 3d chapter of the Acts of the Apostles, speak
ing to the Jews, says, — " Ye are the children of the
prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our
fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the
kindreds of the earth be blessed." All the apostles recog
nize this truth ; all saw it with the clearness of spiritual
vision. What kind of blessing was this ? Why, it was
the Christian blessing undoubtedly. St. Peter gives the
explanation in the very last verse, for he says — " Unto you
first, God, having raised up his Son, Jesus, sent him to bless
you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities."
" Sent him to bless you ;" — how ? " In turning away
every one of you from his iniquities." This was a part of
the blessing. Had Peter been as well versed in our theo
logy as we are at this day, he would undoubtedly have told
them that Christ was sent by God to bless them by saving

REV. MR. SAWYER. 75
them from an endless hell and infinite perdition. But
Peter did not understand this matter ; in his day theology
was young ; he had not attained such a clear and compre
hensive notion of things as we have at the present day ;
and he, according to what he knew of the matter, announced
to them that Christ was sent to turn them away from their
iniquities. I have two or three remarks to make only on the obser
vations of my brother. He makes his statements in such a
way that he would lead you to suppose that we Universal
ists believed in no atonement. My dear friends, we believe
in the atonement precisely as it is taught in the scriptures.
We believe in an atonement made for all men ; and we
believe more ; we believe that that atonement has an
efficacy and a power which will surely result in something.
It is, with us, not a mere name, but it is a reality which
shall, in the end, be perfectly and fully accomplished. I
hail, with great delight, the progress of our theology in
these days. In olden times, when some of my now grey
headed friends lived as boys, they used to hear that hell
was paved with infants' skulls ; and the idea is involved now
in the Presbyterian confession of faith — not under the term
of infant skulls indeed, but of infant damnation. It says,
elect infants, dying in infancy, are to be saved so and so. If
elect, those infants are to be saved ; but, if not elect, what
then ? What of those other infants ? Ah ! my Presbyterian
friends, if they do not believe in this, ought to get it out of
their creed.
My brother says the Jews believed in an endless state of
future punishment. I should like our brother to tell us
where the Jews got that doctrine. Not out of their scrip
tures ; and he knows that. I can furnish you any amount
of testimonies of the most respectable orthodox authorities,
that the doctrine of endless torments was never taught in the

76 REV. MR. SAWYER.
Old Testament. If the Jews believed the doctrine (and I
am not disposed to doubt that they did) in the time of our
Saviour, they got it elsewhere than from the scriptures.
We have heard a great deal of the moral influence of that
doctrine, and now it seems to be regarded as one of the
saving influences of this lower world ; — and yet that nation
which so strenuously and utterly believed it, were the most
inveterate sinners in the world. Look at the Scribes and
Pharisees ; they were the great advocates of that doctrine.
Did you ever find more ungracious fellows, darker-minded,
more corrupt, than our Saviour paints them as being ? Yet
this doctrine was hugged to their bosom as the great truth,
but it did not save them from the utmost depravity and
wickedness !
My brother thinks that, in my quotation of poetry, I
differ from St. Paul in this respect. St. Paul quoted what
was accordant with the doctrine of the Bible ; but what I
quote is utterly discordant with the Bible. 1 am not so
certain of that. St. Paul said we were God's offspring, and
the poet had said it before him, and yet my brother cannot
see any proof that all men are God's children. Why does
he not believe Paul, and accept his saying, when he
preaches from the poet what he says is the doctrine of the
Bible ? I quoted from Thomson's Seasons, one of the most
beautiful and truthful works, among the uninspired, that
ever was written. Thomson says — " I cannot go where
love is not." And another poet — the inspired psalmist —
says — " Whither shall I flee from thy presence ? If I ascend
up into heaven, thou art there : if I make my bed in hell,
behold ! thou art there. If I take the wings of the morning,
and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea, even there shall
thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me." It
seems to me there is love everywhere; hell itself is not
excepted. God, says the same poet, the psalmist, " is good

REV. MR. SAWYER. 77
to all, and his tender mercies are over all his works."
Mercy over all his works — and what is there that He made
not ? Hell (if there be such a place) is also the work of
His hand — and over it is His merciful hand, to-day and
for ever ? Was the poet Thomson very far out of the way
— had he drank in none of this greater poetry, gathered
from the inspired poet of Israel ? Had he imbibed none of
this divine sentiment, which has carried joy and gladness to
so many hearts ?
We agree, I believe, my brother and I, in regard to the
end for which God made man. I hope you will not forget
that. Just read over the Presbyterian catechism ; (I mean
the first portion — I do not want you to go any farther ;)
"What is the chief end of man?" "To glorify God and
enjoy him for ever." Had they gone on in the same man
ner through the rest of the catechism, what a glorious instru
ment it would have been ! This is the great end. But,
clearly, this end is not reached here ; shall it, therefore,
never be reached? Shall the end which God himself pro
posed not be attained ? My brother says the world has
gone on six thousand years, and that it is not done yet. He
is quite discouraged about it — about the success of the plan
which God proposed and commenced ! But, my brother,
six thousand years do not make a great while ; 'tis a great
while yet to the end of eternity. My brother reminds me
of some of whom the apostle spake, whose complaint was —
" But we did not see all things subjected to Christ." " No,"
said he, " but we have seen Jesus Christ a little lower than
the angels." He saw Christ crucified, and crowned again with
glory and honor, sitting on the right hand of the throne of the
majesty on high, waiting till God should subject all things
to himself, and the end be accomplished. Seeing that, the
apostle saw enough ; but my brother does not see that yet.
According to my brother's creed, God is not going to

78 REV. MR. SAWYER.
succeed in this enterprise. He made a world — He started
fair — He proposed an end — He introduced all the means
and appliances necessary — and yet, after all, He is about to
fail in it ! Mark that down ! Let it be settled in your
minds that, if my brother's theology be right, God has to
fail in this enterprise. I understand what men mean by
failures. Thus, great merchants down town fail ; and we
can trace the causes of their failures in extravagance, an
unwise trust — in this way they, and manufacturers, and all
classes of men, are liable to fail ; but I have never heard
why or how, by any possibility, God is to fail in this enter
prise. I have never entertained the idea — else God were
like one whom our Saviour represented in this parable —
This man began to build, but was not able to finish.
But, let us grant for a moment that the result my brother
suggests is to take place ; let us suppose that God does not
perform what he undertook ; does not come up to the word
which he has given us. He has said that to the end from
the beginning his counsels shall stand. But let us say so
much of God's word is to fail. God, then, abandons this
enterprise of saving all men, of having all men to glorify
and enjoy him forever. What is he now to do with them ?
My brother told us last night that in the state, when there
is an incorrigible disturber, the people take him up, put him
into prison, and keep him there during his natural life. But
you will remember that God undertook to bring men to
heaven — and failed in that ; how does my brother feel confi
dent that God will succeed in getting so many men into
hell ? Men will not go into heaven, though God has invited,
nay, commanded them to go ; and Christ, with all love and
tenderness, has urged them to go. Yet, absolutely, they
will not go to heaven. If they are so obstinate under that
command, how will they be under the other, to which the
disposition must surely be far less ? Will they indeed go

REV. MR. SAWYER. 79
to hell ? They may say " I will not go to hell," as " I will
not go to heaven." Ah ! I answer to all this — There are
many devices in man's heart, but the counsel of the Lord,
that will stand. That is scripture, too ! I maintain that
God's government and laws will remain in full force forever ;
not one jot or tittle of his laws shall fail, till the whole be
fulfilled ; and his law is — " Thou shalt love the Lord thy
God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all
thy might ; and thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself."
Punishment, and with it all the influences of Christ, and
justice, and mercy, are only means towards the end. All
the influences of the gospel, and God's moral government,
are merely means towards the end ; and, therefore, we exalt
God's attributes when we say, as I have said, that his plea
sure shall be accomplished and his purpose maintained !
Look, for one moment, at the opposite view. God, in
his law, demands our obedience. Obedience would make
us happy ; but, we break the law. Now what will God
do ? Strike us away from the world, and consign us to hell
forever ? What will we do there ? Will we preserve the
law there ? Is obedience to the law secured there ? God
does not propose that man shall be made obedient by the
pains he suffers. He places him in a hell where he can
neither love nor serve God. He is placed there for what
end ? That he may suffer torments throughout eternity, his
whole business being to blaspheme God's holy name ! Let
us look at that a moment. If a man should steal, and then
the state should cut him off from all honest resources, so
that he should go on stealing during all his lifetime, that
would be called a punishment ! Suppose a man is intem
perate, and the authorities shut him up in a groggery
for all his lifetime — that is a punishment ! Would it not
be a better course to shut him up somewhere that not a
drop of intoxicating spirits could enter, where he might be-

SO REV. MR. WESCOTT.
come temperate, learn his duty and perform it ? This idea
of endless punishment, which violates all our notions of jus
tice and divine government, defeats the very end for which
it was introduced ; for, according to this very theory itself,
it violates that end perpetually, and keeps it in eternal abey-

Rev. Mr. Wescott : — My brother told us, in his first
speech, which I have not time to answer this evening, that
when a serpent received a bruise upon his head, that was the
end of him. I have seen a great many serpents with sore
heads, who, nevertheless, lived a long time afterwards. Satan
was, most probably, bruised on his head at the crucifixion ;
still, for two thousand years he has infused his poison into the
hearts of the children of men, and his operations are con
ducted with full vigor yet. This figure does not carry truth
and weight. We never apprehended that Satan could inflict
so much injury on Christ, the glorious Son of God, as Christ
could inflict on Satan. We agree, then, as to all that my
brother has said of the creation and fall of man. What
Christ came to do, he tells us, will surely be accomplished.
One thing is certain, it has not yet been so — but this we will
notice as we move on. He said that God promised to make
of Abraham's seed a new race. They were made a peculi
ar people, but not a new race. God also promised, he says,
" In thee and thy seed all the nations and families shall be
blessed." Now, I do not object to " tiations ;" but, Jehovah
means — though I have called you and made your people a
peculiar people, and will raise up among you a series of
prophets, yet, I wish you to understand that when Christ
comes, he will come as much to bless the Gentiles as to bless
_\ ou. If my brother means by " family" that every particu
lar piivate family or domestic circle is to be blessed, there
are thousands and thousands who have not received the

REV. MR. WESCOTT. 8]
blessing. John says — " I saw out of every nation under
heaven, a great multitude which no man can number." Out
of every nation ! Are all included in these words ? The
seed meant is Christ ; on that point we all agree. But my
brother at last finds the covenant ; the covenant of which,
so late as last night, he had never heard ! He finds it in the
epistle of Paul to the Galatians. I am very glad of this, as
it shows there is some hopes of him yet. Having discov^
ered its excellencies, he perhaps may embrace its conditions.
He also tells us that the way the gospel is to work is by
turning men away from their sins ; and this he shows by
observing that, when Peter explained the purpose of the
gospel to the Jews, he would have told them it was sent to
save them from perdition, if it really were so, while Peter
only speaks of turning them from their iniquities !
I have been preaching for twenty-five years, and I have
ever preached to men to turn from their sins — but I
warn them of the wrath of God if they neglect turning
from sin. But, on this same point, my brother adds another
piece of news which is very strange to me ; he says Peter
knew nothing about perdition. Let us see ! Let us turn to
the Second Epistle General of Peter, 3rd chapter and 7th
verse, and what do we find there ? " But the heavens and
the earth, which are new, by the same word are kept in
store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment, and
perdition of ungodly men." Peter knew nothing about
perdition ! Did he not ? Why, it would seem Peter must
have belonged to the sect to which I have belonged for 25
years. He advised men to turn from sin — and so do I.
He knew there was perdition for ungodly men — and so do I.
He knew it, for there stand his words — " and perdition of
ungodly men !"
Our brother asks where did the Jews get their views of
future endless punishment. Well ; that is nothing to the
4*

82 REV. MR. WESCOTT.
argument at all. My argument was simply this : Christ
finds the Jews, with the exception of the Sadducees, be
lievers in future endless punishment ; he teaches the same
doctrine and confirms them therein, which our Divine
Master would not have done if it were an error ; and,
therefore, it was not an error, but was, and is, the truth.
That is my argument, and I should like to see my opponent
evade its force. But he says such a doctrine could never
be taken from the Scriptures. Is he right in saying so 1
He says many distinguished and learned divines hold so.
Well, probably, it is hard to say what learned divines
sometimes will not do ; at any rate, they differ in opinion ;
seeing which were it not well that we should pass them by
and try what testimony God's word gives us ? For me, I
do not bind myself to prefer, to the statements of the
Bible, the opinions of any divine or number of divines.
Let us consult the only infallible guide, and what do we
learn from it ? " The wicked shall be turned into hell with
all the nations that forget God." " Many of them that
sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake ; some to ever
lasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."
That is the Old Testament ; and though a thousand divines
should give their opinion to the contrary, what weight
would their opinion have after that ? I call no man father.
I bow but to one theological book ; the only theological
work of authority that I acknowledge is the Holy Scrip
tures ; I am bound by the shackles of no man ; I am held
in the bondage of no criticism of man ; what God has said,
that will I believe, and that will I teach.
I do not at this moment recollect how it was introduced ;
but it was in the matter of the poet again that it came up.
My brother quotes the poetry of Thomson, and then another
beautiful scrap of poetry ; but let me continue the quota
tion : " Whither shall I go from thy spirit, or whither shall

REV. MR. WESCOTT. 83
1 flee from thy presence ? If I ascend up into heaven, thou
art there ; if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
If I take the wings of the morning and dwell in the utter
most parts of the sea, even there shall thy hand lead me,
and thy right hand shall hold me."
He was a little startled at one line in this poetry — " If I
make my bed in hell, thou art there ;" but then he would
have you believe God was there in love. What, then,
meant the harbinger of Jesus when he said — "Who hath
warned you to flee from the wrath to come? And another,
when he said — " And the kings of the earth, and the great
men and the rich men, — the chief captains, and the mighty
men, and every bond-man and every freeman hid them
selves in the dens, and in the rocks of the mountains, and
said to the mountains and rocks, fall on us, and hide us
from the face of him that sitteth on the throne and from the
wrath of the Lamb, for the great day of his wrath is come,
and who shall be able to stand ?" If there be no wrath,
what meant John by that? If there be no wrath, what
meant another inspired writer, when he spoke of treasuring
up " wrath against the day of wrath, and revelation of the
righteous judgment of God ?" Ah ! In that dark abode
God's hand is felt, but the balmy wing of love flutters not
over that abode. They who occupy it have resisted love,
they have trampled on love, they have turned their backs on
love, they have trodden under foot the cross that was raised
for them on Calvary — till mercy is wearied, and yields to
vengeance there.
My brother asks you, what is the chief end of man ? I
answer emphatically, — To glorify and enjoy God. God
has made man capable of doing this ; but does man do it ?
No ! He is capable, therefore answerable ; he refuses to
use his capacity aright, therefore guilty. In his own person,
and to his own condemnation, he, not God, rejects the pur
pose which God spread before him.

R4 REV. MR. WESCOTT.
With reference to the punishing of the wicked, my brother
asks something which I suppose he means to be an inquiry,
whether such punishment can be anything but cruelty. I
answer, that every government of which we know anything,
while it honors virtue and protects rights, shuts up in prison
the persevering disturber of society ; I can only add,
Jehovah's government will do the same.
Having answered this objection, I have but a single argu
ment further to offer, and then I will relieve your patience
for to-night. I wish to give you, as a closing remark,
another reason why I cannot be a Universalist. Please God,
I shall give you one every night. My reason is this, —
Because, in a fundamental doctrine of the Holy Scriptures,
Universalism and the bible are contrary to each other. Let
me give you an extract from Universalism. Universalists
maintain that men now possess the same constitution,
physical and moral, as was originally given to the progenitor
of our race. Physical and moral — the same! Now pos
sess the same ! The same constitution, moral and physical,
as was given to the progenitor of our race ! This is a
doctrine of Universalism ; it is so stated to be by the Rev.
Thomas J. Sawyer, D.D., in his Review of Mr. Hatfield.
Now, my friends, I cannot believe that doctrine ; because,
in the first place, we are told God created man upright.
Such, it seems to me, was man's moral constitution — upright.
Let us take a few plain texts of scripture to ascertain what
man is now. " Behold, I was shapen in iniquity, and in sin
did my mother conceive me," said the Psalmist. Again,
says the same Psalmist, " The wicked are estranged from
the womb, they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking
lies." Again, we are told, "Foolishness is bound upon the
heart of a child." In Romans 5: 12, the apostle tells us,
"Death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned."
" Wherefore, as by one man sin entered the world, and death

REV, MR. WESCOTT. 85
by sin — and so death passed upon all men for that all have
sinned." Again, says the Psalmist, " Their inward part is
very wickedness." The inspired writer seems to labor for
an expression sufficiently forcible to depict the depravity of
man. Again, Paul says to the Corinthians, " If one died
for all, then were all dead," — that is dead, not physically,
but morally dead. Again, writes Paul to the Ephesians,
" And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses
and sins." Was this a demise merely of their natural con
stitutions ? Was it not a moral death ? Again, " God saw
that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that
every imagination of the thoughts of his heart, was only
evil continually." Again, " The heart is deceitful above
all things, and desperately wicked. Who can know it?
I, the Lord, search the heart. I try the reins." Again,
Romans 3:9, " What then ? are we better than they ?
No ; in no wise, for we have before proved both Jews and
Gentiles that they are all under sin ; As it is written,
There is none righteous, no not one. There is none that
understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
They are all gone out of the way, they are together
become unprofitable ; there is none that doeth good, no not
one. Their heart is an open sepulchre ; with their tongues
they have used deceit ; the poison of asps is under their
lips : Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness. Their
feet are swift to shed blood. Destruction and misery are
in their ways ; and the way of peace have they not known.
There is no fear of God before their eyes."
There is Paul's description of the human family. Had
Adam such a character when God made him ? If not, I
cannot be a Universalist, because Universalism conflicts
with the Scriptures.

FOTJETH EVENING.
The Throne of Grace having been addressed by the Rev.
Mr. Campbell, of Yonkers,
Dr. Sawyer said : — I wish once more to call your atten
tion to the question in debate and to the matter thus far
introduced in its discussion. The question is, simply, " Do
the holy scriptures teach the final salvation of all men?"
From the holy scriptures we learn, as I have already shown,
that there is a God of infinite wisdom, and goodness, and
power ; a God who is, by his nature, love, and the father of
the whole human race. As he is the sovereign fountain of
reason and knowledge, I have shown that he must have had
an object in view in the creation of man in. his own image.
What was His object, I have asked again and again. It
must be something consonant with his natural character
as a Being of infinite perfections, wisdom, goodness, and
infinite love — something, in a word, worthy of the Heavenly
Father. My opponent and myself are, I believe, now agreed
as to this original purpose of God in the creation. You
also, I trust, who have listened to us thus far, must be en
tirely satisfied on this primary point, — " the chief end of
man is to glorify God and to enjoy him for ever." That is
the end for which God made all men at first ; that he has
ever changed or abandoned this, his original design, no man
can for a moment pretend, and it seems to me no man can
reasonably even imagine; so far from it, indeed, the scrip-

REV. MR. sawyer. 87
tures clearly show that God has never forgotten this, his
design ; has never lost sight of it ; but, amid all the out
ward changes of the world, and through the various dispen
sations of his providence, and his grace, has steadily pur
sued it, and is pursuing it now, and will continue to pursue it,
until he has finally and perfectly attained it. In proof of this
proposition I endeavored to bring to your acquaintance, last
evening, several scripture texts that seemed to me of great
weight ; as, for instance, the declaration of God in the gar
den of Eden, when he had called our first parents, after
their transgression and fall, into his presence, to pronounce
his sentence upon them ; when the temptation was traced
back to the serpent, and upon that serpent the heaviest pos
sible curse was pronounced, in a declaration that the seed
of the woman should bruise his head, while he should bruise
his heel. I showed you, or, at least, endeavored to show
you, that the bruising of the serpent's head, thus promised
by the Lord our God, implied the death of the serpent, or
his destruction ; and I fortified this opinion by a reference
to a passage in the New Testament, where we are taught
that, since the children were "partakers of flesh and blood,"
Christ also " took part of the same, that through death he
might destroy him that hath the power of death, that is, the
devil, and deliver them who, through fear of death, had
been all their life-time subject to bondage."
I endeavored to enforce the fact that, whatever you might
understand by the term serpent, and whatever your notion
of the devil might be ; however malignant, great, or mighty
you might conceive him to be, there is One mightier than
he, who has assured us, by his holy word, that he shall be
destroyed. I, furthermore, showed you that God had, very
graciously, in the early ages of the world, revealed himself
to the patriarchs, and gave promises of what he would, in
due time, accomplish through them and their seed. "In thee

REV. MR. SAWYER.

and thy seed, shall all the nations and families of the earth be
blessed ;" such was the promise given and repeated by Je
hovah. That seed, we learn from Saint Paul, is no other
than Jesus Christ. Through Jesus Christ, then, God pro
posed, away back in the dim past, to reveal himself as the
ren ewer of a tarnished world, as the restorer of lost souls;
and, thus, to bless the whole human family.
I wish, this evening, with your indulgence, to pursue a
similar train of thought, to show you that this doctrine
lying so at the commencement of Revelation, and traced up
through the patriarchal ages, runs through the whole Old
Testament, and is also still more plainly fixed and evidenced
in the New — I say, still more plainly in the New. It is no
doctrine interposed here and there in obscure and dark
verses ; but it seems to me to stand out clearly everywhere
that God has been pleased to speak of it ; forming a silver
chain running through the whole volume of Revelation, in
the most intimate relation with the divine character and
purposes. You will observe, in the first place, that this
original purpose of God, declared in his word to the patri
archs, made a lively and profound impression upon the bet
ter and more spiritual minds of the Jewish people. Those
declarations, and the truths they set forth, were seized hold
of by the psalmist particularly, wrought up in the most
beautiful poetry, and thenceforth made part of the national
education, and an instrument of national worship.
Speaking of Christ, who was ultimately to crush the head
of the serpent, and in whom, as the seed of Abraham, all
the nations and families of the earth were to be blessed, the
Psalmist says : " His name shall endure for ever ; his name
shall be continued as long as the sun, and men shall be
blessed in him ; all nations shall call him blessed." " All
kings shall fall down before him ; all nations shall serve
him." Thus we see him blessing all and blessed of all, the

REV. MR. SAWYER. 89
King of kings, and Lord of lords. Again, the Psalmist says,
"Arise, 0 God ; judge the earth, for thou shalt inherit all
nations." And, once more, "All nations whom thou hast
made shall come and worship before thee, O Lord ! and
shall glorify thy name." That is, shall reach the end for
which they were created. " For thou art great, and doest
wondrous things ; thou art God alone." So great did this
truth seem to him, so great did he represent it to be, that it
was to him a wonder — a wonder, alas ! which too many
christians of this day find it difficult to believe. But, I must
not dwell here. Let us pass into the domain of prophecy,
and hear how God's servants, who spake as they were
moved by the Holy Ghost, were in the habit of represent
ing this matter. How did they look on God's purpose ?
How did they estimate the operations of Divine Grace ?
What extent did they attribute to the salvation which is by
Christ Jesus? They represented God as having made the
amplest provisions for the spiritual wants of the human
family. " In this mountain," says the prophet Isaiah, pro
bably meaning Mount Zion, the earthly centre of spiritual
relations ; " In this mountain shall the Lord of hosts make
unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the
lees ; of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well
refined. And he will destroy in this mountain the face of
the covering cast over all people and the vail that is spread
over all nations. He will swallow up death in victory, and
the Lord God will wipe away tears from off all faces, and
the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the
earth, for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it." What a
beautiful thought ! Oh, that we could only take it in with
a believing soul ! God wiping away the tears from all
faces ! God taking away rebuke from the earth ! Relieving
all human hearts ! What a source of ineffable joy to us !
Watts has beautifully paraphrased these inspired words, so

90 REV. MR. SAWYER.
beautifully, that I must ask leave to repeat his lines, even
though they are poetry. I trust my brother will pardon
me. " His own soft hand shall wipe the tears
From every weeping eye,
And pains, and groans, and griefs and fears,
And death itself shall die."
Watts is not a Universalist — is not so regarded, though
there is in him a great spirit of Universalism, and here it
manifests itself most beautifully. Watts was a Universalist
half the time — the other half he was terribly orthodox.
God, then, has not only made such ample provision for
the welfare of his creatures, but He invites them to partici
pate therein. Hear the prophet again, " Ho, every one that
thirsteth, come ye to the waters ; and he that hath no
money ;" (the poor need not be excluded here ;) — " come
ye, buy meat ; yes, come, buy wine and milk without
money and without price. Wherefore do ye spend money
for that which is not bread ? and your labor for that which
satisfieth not ? hearken diligently unto me, and eat ye that
which is good, and let your soul delight itself in fatness."
Many tell us that Universalism is altogether too good to be
true — that it meets too much the desires of the human heart ;
but the prophet did not think so ; for, what does he say ?
"Hearken diligently unto me, and eat ye that which is
good, and let your soul delight itself in fatness." He cen
sured them for spending their money for that which is not
bread, and laboring for that which satisfies not. And is it
not so even here and to-day ? All over this country how
many pour out their money for that which is not bread, and
labor for a religion that brings them no joy, but makes life
itself, as one of their authors has expressed it, " a cruel
bitter !"
Perhaps my opponent will tell us that provisions made

REV. MR, SAWYER. 9]
for all, and an invitation so cordially extended to all, yet
furnish no proof that all will accept them. Hear, then,
what the prophet has to say on this subject, in the imme
diate connection of the passage just now quoted. " For
my thoughts," says God, " are not as your thoughts, neither
are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. For, as the
heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher
than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven,
and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth and maketh
it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower,
and bread to the eater, so shall my word be that goeth
forth out of my mouth ; it shall not return to me void, but
it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper
in the thing unto which I sent it." -
No ! the rain never falls in vain on the face of the earth,
and God's word goes not forth in vain, however we may
regard it. That sacred power fails not to accomplish the
purposes of the Most High. But I do not stop here ; I go
still further, and say that the prophet, directly, and with
great emphasis, states that God will bring all men to him
self, and accomplish the purpose which he has in view.
Hear the words of Isaiah, which I should wish to have
listened to with the attention they seem to me to deserve.
The prophet had been speaking of the heathen gods, who
were no gods at all, who could not save — and then he speaks
of the God who could and will. "Look unto me and be
ye saved, all the ends of the earth ; for I am God, and
there is none else. I have sworn by myself, the word is
gone out of my mouth in righteousness and shall not
return ; that unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue
shall swear. Surely, shall say, In the Lord have I righteous
ness and strength."
My Christian friends, have you any objection to this ?

92 REV. MR. SAWYER.
Were it possible to bring every soul here to-night to ac
knowledge God in his supremacy and spiritual power, and
to become a disciple of Jesus Christ, would you have any
objection ? And if this whole city, and country, and world,
and, finally, the whole universe, were to be thus redeemed
to God, to submit themselves to his government and sway,
to honor and glorify him, and to enjoy him too — would
that consummation bring you any sorrow? Would it not,
rather, be to you a source of ineffable joy ? It was cus
tomary, it seems, in ancient times, when a new king
ascended the throne, to have at least all the nobles, if not
all the people, brought together to honor him in his new
capacity, to bow the knee to him in token of homage and
acknowledgment, and to take the oath of allegiance that
they would serve and obey him. This ancient custom the
prophet had in view, as is apparent from the phraseology
he employs : "I have sworn by myself; the word is gone
out of my mouth in righteousness and shall not return, that
unto me every knee shall bow and every tongue shall swear,
Surely, shall say, in the Lord have I righteousness and
strength." This passage finds a beautiful and complete commentary
in the language used by Saint Paul in the second chapter of
his Epistle to the Philippians. The apostle speaks of Christ
Jesus, his humility, and tells how he "made himself of no
reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant."
The apostle says, too, that " God hath highly exalted him,
and given him a name which is above every name ; that in
the name of Jesus" — (not "at" the name, as our translation
hath it, but " in " the name of Jesus,) — " every knee should
bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things
under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that
Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."
It seems to me as if the apostle had his eye on those

REV. MR. SAWYER. 93
declarations of tne prophet, transferring them from God to
Jesus Christ, through whom God was revealing himself.
I wish you to observe, in opposition to the remark of my
brother last night, in his criticism on the word " nations,"
that we have now descended to the true religious stand
point of considering men as individuals. It is not " nations "
any longer that are spoken of as sharers in the good tidings
— but it is every person to whom a participation of this
great joy is promised, — " Every knee shall bow, and every
tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of
God the Father."
In the matter of religion everything is personal ; and na
tions are only the aggregate of individuals. My brother
will, undoubtedly, tell you that this declaration of the
prophet does actually set forth a great truth, that all souls
are to be subjected to him — some in love, and others by the
power of God. I remember that Dr. Thomas Scott, in his
ponderous commentary, makes that remark. 1 always won
dered why the apostle should not be allowed to tell his own
story. Saint Paul says nothing of this — he does not men
tion two ways of subjecting souls to Him. — " Every tongue
should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of
God, the Father.'' I wish you furthermore to observe that
all this God has confirmed by an oath. " Since He could
swear by no greater, He was pleased to swear by Himself,
that by two immutable things, in which it was impossible
for God to lie," the race of men should have great consola
tion. " The Lord of hosts hath sworn," says the prophet,
" saying, surely as I have thought, shall it come to pass, and
as I have purposed, so shall it stand." I confess I cannot
read the bible without seeing these passages. There are a
great many passages that speak of punishment. I do not
deny punishment ; but, it is not so great as this. Punish
ment is consonant with the government of God. It will be

94 REV. MR. WESCOTT.
executed — righteous punishment — where it is required; but,
after all, God's mercy and truth will stand, and God will
glorify himself in the accomplishment of his great final pur
poses. With these, punishment, righteous and just, does
not interfere ; it is a means towards its attainment. None
of the phenomena lying round us, and contemplated by my
brother, is opposed to this great final plan, or effectually in
terferes with it. I believe in punishment just as really as
he does. I believe as firmly as does he, in all the punish
ment that God has threatened in his holy word — but, it
is not endless ; for if it were, it would be objectless ; it is
not an end; — punishment an end of the All-good and All-
wise ! Oh no ! It is not an end proposed by him ; it is
only a means which he employs !
Rev. Mr. Wescott : — I am very glad, for our sakes, that
we have at last an attempt, from the scriptures, to establish
the question. We have had, heretofore, very much meta
physical reasoning, which I have not attempted to follow,
because, in plain fact, that was not the question. It cannot
be expected that on this evening, in the time allowed to me,
I would be able to give an explanation of all the texts of
scripture quoted on the subject; but I pledge myself to you
that, if my life be spared, I will do it, and show that they
mean no such thing as is contemplated in the question be
fore us. But, before I enter on the examination, particu
larly, of these texts, it may be necessary for me to refer
again to questions which have been started this evening for
the fourth time ; namely, in regard to God being our father,
the father of the whole human race, and with regard to the
object which Jehovah had in the creation of man. I an
swered these questions — the latter one — on Tuesday evening,
when it was first taken up. I supposed my answer satisfac
tory to the assembly. I did not suppose my opponent would

REV. MR. WESCOTT. 95
be satisfied with it at all. In regard to God being the father
of the whole human family, or the whole human family be
ing his children, allow me to say (as I have said already)
that he is, indeed, the creator of all men, as he is the creator
of all nature,animateandinanimate; thus far I admit, as I
have already admitted, that God is the father of all men.
But, as regards that sense in which one becomes an heir to
the inheritance of a father ; as regards that gracious sense
in which a son of man becomes an heir of God — a joint heir
with Christ — in that sense the whole human family are not
the children of God. In this latter sense, to which I allude,
men are called the children of that Being whose spirit they
possess. Sometimes they are the children of the world ;
sometimes the children of the serpent ; sometimes the chil
dren of the devil ; and sometimes, (when reference is made
to the spirit of God being infused into their hearts) they are
the children of God. And now for a few passages of scripture
by which, so far as I am concerned, and I think so far, also,
as you, my brethren, are concerned, I will consider this
question settled. It may be introduced again, on the re
maining four evenings ; but I shall not hold myself under
obligation to follow it, as it may be brought in from time to
time, inasmuch as it shall have been settled by the word of
God, clearly and explicitly.
In Matt. 23 : 33, Christ says — " Ye serpents, ye genera
tion of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell ? "
I suppose rny brother will not cavil on the word generation •
I suppose he will readily admit that generation of vipers
means children of vipers, and that such generation gives the
spirit of the viper. Keep that text in mind. In Luke 16 :
8, we read, " The children of this world are in their gene
ration wiser than the children of light." I suppose it is
clear enough that a distinction is here made between two
classes of the human family. One class is called " the

96 REV. MR. WESCOTT.
children of the world." Why ? Because they are filled
with the spirit of this world, as they appeared to be in this
case ; while there is another class who are called " the
children of light," because they have sought and found a
brighter light, a light that would shine and guide to the glory
of heaven. Again, in Ephesians 2:3, we read, " Among
whom also we all had our conversation in times past, in the
lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of
the mind ; and were by nature the children of wrath, even
as others." There is the natural condition of the human
family ; there is their estate by nature, children of wrath ;
and such were the apostles and others, but who, receiving
life through Jesus Christ our Lord, were made heirs ofthe
kingdom of heaven. Again, in Ephesians 5:6, we have
these words, " Because of these things cometh the wrath of
God upon the children of disobedience." Why of disobe
dience? Because their life was characterized by disobe
dience to the commands of God. Said the apostle, when
addressing the man who sought to turn the deputy governor
away from the faith, " Oh ! full of all subtilty," — (thus he
accosted him, fixing his eye on him,) — " Oh ! full of all
subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou
enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert
the right ways ofthe Lord?" I think he was no child of
God, in the sense of a joint heir with Jesus Christ. Again,
in Romans 8 : 14, we read, — (and now we come to the
characteristics of another class,) — " As many as are led by
the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God." That is the
characteristic of sonship. How ? Jesus — being " led by
the Spirit of God ?" Yes ; and the Spirit itself witnesseth
with our spirit, that we are the " children of God."
Do you suppose the apostle considered those child
ren of the devil, and these children of God, equally the
children of the Highest ? Do you imagine that he looked

REV. MR. WESCOTT. 97
on them as joint heirs with Christ ? My opponent, perhaps,
may think so ; but you do not. Again ; let us turn to
Romans 9 : 7. There we read, " Neither because they are
the seed of Abraham are they all thy children, but in Isaac
shall thy seed be called ; that is, they which are the children
ofthe flesh, these are not the children of God." Let me read
that text again : — " They which are the children of the flesh,
these are not the children of God." Thus does the apostle
characterize those who seek the things of the flesh — They
" ARE NOT THE CHILDREN OF GOD ! " Now, although this
text may not satisfy my opponent that the scripture writers
recognized two classes ; and, in regard to that gracious
faith, which makes a man a fellow-heir with Christ, although
he may see no difference between those who are lod by the
Spirit, and actuated by faith and grace, and those who,
devoting themselves to sin, are therefore termed the children
of sin, the children of wrath, the children of the devil, —
although he may not be satisfied, yet, every candid inquirer
after truth who hears me to-night will feel that this ques
tion is settled for ever. Let me say to you, having the
word of God on this subject, having heard the declaration
of Christ, " You are of your father the devil, and his works
you will do," — let me say to you, in the language of
scripture, "Wo unto him that striveth with his maker!
Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth.
Shall the clay say to him that fashioned it, What makest
thou ? — or thy work He hath no hands ? Wo unto him."
Yes, " Wo unto him that striveth with his maker." Oh !
when the maker has settled the question, wo to him who
lulls his conscience, and goes on in his sins, trusting that,
somehow or other, God's inspiration does not speak the
truth of this matter !
We have again to introduce, for the fourth time, (I mean
the fourth evening, for it is more than the fourth time,) the
5

98 REV. MR. WESCOTT.
consideration of what purpose Jehovah had in the creation
of man. Let me briefly give my opinion — the same that I
gave on Tuesday evening, when this question was first ad
vanced. I said that, in my opinion, Jehovah intended to
create a race of intelligent, immortal beings, capable of
ascending to the highest summit of intellectual enjoyment;
that, in order to this, it was absolutely necessary to make
each individual of this race a moral agent, because, whatever
we are forced to do fails to communicate intellectual and
moral happiness. I illustrated this by a reference to the
case of a poor and starving family. Let me now give
another illustration. A merchant in our city took into his
employ a smart, bright-eyed boy, who, after a few weeks
had elapsed, picked up on the side-walk a hundred dollars,
which had been lost there by his employer. The latter
took the little parcel of money, counted it over carefully,
and, with great satisfaction, found it contained every dollar
he had lost — not one had been abstracted. Raising his
head, he saw the large, lustrous eye of the little boy filled
with tears, looking at the money. The idea occurred to
him that he might belong to a poor family, might be the
son of a widowed mother ; and he said to the boy, " James,
what is the situation of your family ?" The boy answered,
" About a year ago my father died, and my family depends
wholly on me for support. I have a mother and two little
sisters, the one three and the other five years of age — and
mother is sick ; I will tell you the truth, sir, I was tempted,
at first, to carry the money home, and I had put it in my
pocket, when I remembered that my mother had taught me
never to steal." The merchant gave the boy $20, saying,
" Carry that to your mother, and when you want more,
come to me first." Now did not that money, thus volunta
rily bestowed, confer more real happiness on the giver, as
well as on those who received, than could five times the

REV. MR. WESCOTT. 99
amount of the stolen money not thus willingly applied to
a good end ? In order to have a good deed promote your
happiness to the greatest extent, it is absolutely necessary
that it should be a voluntary one. The Lord intended to
raise us to the very pinnacle of enjoyment — but to do that
it was necessary to make us moral agents, and this involves
the power of sinning as well as of obeying. Hence, God
not only placed us here with motives before us, but also
placed us under a law ; and His law was — " Do this and
live ; do that and die." Man disobeyed ; he fell ; he became
a sinner ; and now the question is, whether God's gracious
plan is ever to be accomplished ? I say, so far as the sal
vation of the whole human family is concerned — the raising
of them all to the pinnacle of enjoyment, — we have no
evidence whatever !
The inquiry was again raised — " Can the plan of the infi
nitely wise and powerful God fail ?" Let us look at that.
The argument is that He commanded, and therefore so it must
be done according to His command. But He said to men,
"Take not my name in vain;" and, have we never sworn
vainly by our Maker's name? They have — therefore God's
will was not done. Whatever God does, He does accord
ing to His will, but it is not certain that man does so. God
said to men, " Do not steal !" But, how is it ? Have men
never stolen ? Have there never been robberies committed
in the world ? Is God's law kept in this regard ? No, truly.
He said, " Do not steal — I will that you shall not steal."
And so God willed that all men should be infinitely happy ;
but, notwithstanding all the arguments we have heard to
show that what God " would have" must come to pass —
notwithstanding all that, how are the plain, unmistakable
facts known to all men, and which no man can reject with
out disguising his plainest experience ? Why they show
that men do blaspheme, and men do steal, and that which

100 REV. MR. WESCOTT.
God commanded shall not be done is done, and that which
he commanded to be done is not done ; and His law is
broken, and His purpose trampled on ; and, therefore, to
say that, because such was his wish, or such his desire, or
such what " he would have" men to do, therefore such must
be, and cannot but be done — is to deny our experience and
abrogate our reason. No, no ; that will not do for us ; we
are not fatalists enough for that ! " Thou shalt not steal."
But do they steal ? Go to your State prisons and let them
bear witness how that law of God is kept. " Thou shalt
not bear false witness." Do they not bear false witness ?
Look at your trials for perjury, and tell the fatalist to be
rebuked and silent. Is this clear ? Is this established ? Or
must this too again come back to us ?
If, then, the gracious and merciful desire of God fails
among his creatures on earth, where is the evidence that it
shall not fail elsewhere? This is the last time I shall feel
under the obligation to reply to this sophistry so frequently
presented to you. I repeat it boldly ; the purpose and will
of God — (I do not use the word purpose in the meaning of
a decree) — but the gracious purpose and will of God is not
accomplished among men, and no man will dare to say it
is, unless he is ready to maintain that, when God said,
" Thou shalt not swear," He meant that they should swear;
and that when He said, " Thou shalt not steal," He meant
they should steal ; unless, in a word, he is ready to assert
and uphold that God was not honest in the. expression of
His will — and for my right hand 1 would not say it. As
God's gracious plan of mercy, then, has not been accom
plished through our moral agency here, it is not certain that
it will be as regards the future world.
There is another declaration brought forward, the attempt
to apply which to my opponent's views I supposed I had
answered. It is taken from the 15th ch vpter of the First

REV. MR. WESCOTT. 10l
Corinthians, and particularly a part of the 28th verse, " God
shall be all in all." It was said to me by a friend, that if
he rightly understood, my opponent meant to give this
interpretation to the passage : Then God shall be all, and
in all men. I did not think so ; if he did, it is entirely
unauthorized. The expression is simply a Hebraism —
" God shall be absolutely sovereign, His friends gathered
around Him, His enemies at His feet ; Jesus Christ having
given up the mediatorial kingdom, shall not any longer
stand between God and men ; and then the wicked shall be
given over to consuming fire, but such as were renewed by
the gracious spirit should be added to the hosts of God and
made happy for ever." In this chapter the doctrine of the
Resurrection is the only doctrine treated of; and because
-the giving up of the mediatorial kingdom succeeds the
resurrection and judgment, it is there introduced ; and thus
it is said " God shall be all in all." The meaning is what
the same words would express among us — " all in all."
It is a literal translation " all in all." The meaning
is just the same as we understood by the common remark
of General Jackson in the time of his administration. How
frequently it was said, " he is all in all;" that is, he allowed
no man to interfere — (I do not say whether he was right or
wrong ; I only illustrate the meaning of the expression) —
that is all it means. Jesus Christ stood between a guilty
world and the Divine Justice ; His mediation being ful
filled, He delivered up His kingdom to God the Father.
Christ having accomplished His purpose, that was ended;
and then all was again subjected to the Father's rule. Com
pare the following text of scripture. In the second Psalm
we read : "Ask of me and I shall give thee the heathen for
thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for
thy possession. Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron,
thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel."

102 REV. MR. WESCOTT.
" Every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess," is but
the same doctrine. Some shall bow in humble and willing
submission, some by forcible subjection, as enemies before
the King. It is like this : A king sends his son into a
revolted province where an army is collected in arms against
him. He offers mercy. A great number throw down their
arms, yield to the claims of the government, and are re
ceived with a cordial pardon. But there is another number
who refuse to yield this submission ; they keep their
ground ; they stand with the weapons of their rebellion in
their hands. These the king's son binds in chains, presents
them at the foot of his father's throne : and then and thus
gives up the kingdom to his father. The human race had
revolted from their King, and Maker, and God. With a
message of mercy, but with the powers of compulsion, His
Divine Son was sent to call them back to their allegiance.
Some heard the call, obeyed it, became again the voluntary
subjects of their King, and those shall receive their reward.
Others refused to listen to the words of grace, resisted its
influence, persevered in their rebellion, and shall receive
their reward also. But the meaning of the apostle in the
chapter referred to is nothing more, and nothing less. It
has no more to do with the final salvation of the whole
human family than with their final damnation.
Now, in answering these three questions, which have been
answered before by me, I have consumed all my time but
five minutes. I do not expect to be able to go through all
the texts adduced ; but, allow me to say, my opponent has
admitted more in respect to Christ than I expected. " Christ
is the restorer of a ruined world." As a general expression
I agree to that. " Christ was to endure forever." I never
doubted it — nor did you. " Kings and nations were to
glorify him." Yes ; all are to be subjected to his power :
a king is glorified, not only when his subjects loyally revere

REV. MR. WESCOTT. 103
him, but also when stubborn rebels are brought in chains to
his feet, and thus the peace of his kingdom is again restored.
He says he will clothe his enemies with shame — that is,
those who will not receive his mercy ; — while to those who
do, he will make "a feast of fat things — a feast of wines on
the lees." Why, if I stepped in suddenly, and heard my
brother repeating these texts, I should have supposed him
to be a Baptist preacher. I have not a word to say in
regard to the gracious promises adduced, than that they no
more teach final and universal salvation than final perse
verance of the saints. The poor and the rich will both
share God's kingdom ; that is not doubted. " My word,"
he has said, " shall not return to me void, but it shall
accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the
thing whereto I sent it." And thus, says the apostle, the
gospel " we preach is to one the savor of life unto life, to
another the savor of death unto death." God's gospel is
never void. It either softens the heart and brings it nearer
to Christ, or it hardens and repels the soul ; and this latter
effect it has, not because of anything in its nature, but the
same sun which melts wax, hardens clay ; and thus that
which attracts the godly, repels the sinner farther from God
— puts him in further opposition to his Maker and his Lord ;
and this we see in every day's walk of life.
I wish to comment on one other text ; and if my brother
has examined it thoroughly he may still be right, because I
have not examined it in regard to criticism. " Look unto
me, and be ye saved," &c. " Surely shall every one say,
In the Lord have I righteousness and strength." Our ver
sion is — " Surely shall one say." I do not know ; I have
not examined the place critically ; but, unless he has ex
amined it closely, I still think the opinion of the fifty-four
learned men who translated our version is worthy of atten
tion. No doubt " one " — that is, any one who trusts God —

104 REV. MR. SAWYER.
may say, " Surely in the Lord have I righteousness and
strength." No, my dear sir. You must get other texts than this.
There are some other which you quoted, but time will not
now permit me to go any further. If there be any texts
in Scripture that teach the ultimate salvation of all men, I
cannot' find them. By-and-by we will get to the main
battle-ground, when we reach the declarations of our Lord
teaching the damnation beyond the grave. But, of course,
these texts of Scripture must be understood and explained.
Rev. Dr. Sawyer. — I do not know precisely how it is,
but it seems to me that my brother and myself are talking
on the paternity of God in two very different ways ; yet, I
think, if we only stopped a moment and conferred together,
we would be found to be not so far apart. What I mean
by God's being the father of all men, and all men God's
children, is that he actually sustains the relations of a
father to them. They are, many of them, very sinful, very
far gone astray ; but, they are his children still, just as if
your sons were to become, some of them, disobedient and
unruly ; you call them your children still, you feel towards
them as your children still, although they are far from
resembling your wishes and character. We have a
beautiful illustration of this in the Bible, in the parable
(if it be a parable) of the Prodigal Son. You all remember
the story. A certain man had two sons, of whom one went
away from his father, gave himself up to vicious courses,
wasted his patrimony, and steeped himself in abject wretch
edness. And then, when in his miserable state, he said to
himself, "I will arise, and go to my father," — (he still
thought he was his father : if my brother were there, he
would have told him his mistake — he would have informed
him that he was but the son of vice and crime ; but he, not

REV. MR. SAWYER. 105
being acquainted with theology, thought that his father was
still his father,) — " I will arise and go to my father," — and
so he did : he arose and went, and found his father, as he
expected. (It was as well for him, perhaps, that our brother
was not there). And when his father saw him, even a great
way off, he had compassion, ran to him, kissed him, clad
him in the best robe, made a feast, and rejoiced, because
that his son who was lost was found again. There was
another son, who was not well pleased with this treatment
which the prodigal received, and remonstrated with his
father ; but he said : " This thy brother, who was lost, is
found, who was dead, is alive again."
Yes, he was still his son ; and as dear to him still as he
that had never left his house nor strayed from his counsels.
And so, the children of God are oftentimes more or less
unruly ; they turn aside, they commit sin, but, have they,
therefore, no father? Then, what means this lesson, given
by the Saviour to the great multitude — Pray, saying, our
father ; be ye kind and affectionate ; love your enemies ; do
good to those that hate you ; pray for those that persecute
you and calumniate you ? That you may be the children of
your father ; that you may become spiritually as you are
by nature, children of God ; take on the character of God in
your character and lives. I receive and believe all those
texts as my brother does ; we become sons of God spiritu
ally when we receive his spirit and walk as he directs us.
But, we were naturally his sons before, but wicked, per
verted, and needing to be brought back — and this was the
purpose for which Jesus Christ came. "Thou shalt call his
name Jesus, for he shall save his people from their sins."
What of that text ? He shall save them ; therefore call him
the Jesus — the Healer — the Saviour — his name tells his
great and gracious office ; was it to be a vain one — was it
undertaken for nothing ? Did he leave the skies on a par-
5* *

106 REV. MR. SAWYER.
tial, or a useless, errand ? No ; God's children, the work
of his hands, the race that was to glorify him, were his
children still, and he sent them a Saviour with a mission
wide enough to reclaim and save them all.
My brother spoke of the atonement. I will beg leave to
say a word in respect to that matter. He spoke of vicari
ous atonement as the only ground of hope ; but there is
scarcely any question of theology on which there have been
so many opinions ; men change their opinions remarkably,
and in nothing more so than this. My brother, it seems,
holds to the old doctrine of an absolute vicarious atone
ment. This is not the opinion of the most learned modern
theologians of any sect. I believe in the atonement ; and
I believe that God was in Christ, reconciling the world to
himself; and that is the atonement. Atonement means
reconciliation, of men to God, not of God to men. My
brother, last night, quoted several texts for the purpose of
proving the contrary of the doctrine I am laboring to main
tain. I suppose you all understand that the two doctrines, end
less torment and universal salvation, cannot be taught by the
bible ; if it be from God, his revelation being true, one or the
other of these two doctrines must be false. Now my brother
quoted several passages to prove the opposite of our ques
tion, that is, eternal torment. It is not precisely the ques
tion — the precise question is — " Do the Holy Scriptures
teach the final salvation of all men?" — and if I have brought
forward passages that prove this question — then, those other
passages do not, (for they cannot) disprove it. But my
brother adduces the following text — " Those that believe and
are baptized shall be saved ; those that believe not, shall be
damned" — and he thinks this proves his argument. But
indeed it does not ; for I maintain that his assertion is
founded on a common mistaken opinion or prejudice. What

REV. MR. SAWYER. 107
does damnation mean ? The orthodox say, hell ; but hell is
not taught in the bible — not the hell of my brother's inten
tion — not the hell which the popular belief paints as the
meaning of the word. Let us examine this a little. He
quoted from the Old Testament — " shall be turned into hell"
— but, what is the word in the original text? Sheol; and
does this mean the hell that the prejudice of to-day means ?
Dr. Campbell has shown that it does not mean a place of
endless misery ; this my brother should understand, and so
should all scholars. Prejudice misled in this matter, until it
was examined ; now that it is, and' settled, the prejudice
should be put aside and truth accepted. Then my brother
brings forward a passage from the New Testament — " How
shall you escape the damnation of hell ?" But here too, I
ask, does the original word mean the orthodox hell — the
place of unending torment ? Not at all ; the word is Ge
henna ; how did he understand it ? How did the Jews
understand it ? It did not lie so far out of their knowledge
that they could not understand it well ; and they understood
it, not in the sense my brother affixes to it. It was a valley,
the valley Gehinnon, lying almost under the walls of the
city. There the inhumanities of idolatry were practised;
there terrible punishments were wrought ; there the garbage
and all offensive objects of the city were cast out and con
sumed with fire — and thus, and thus only, the Jews under
stood the name of the place. He speaks of the anger of
God, and of the wrath of God — but he forgets what God
himself said of his anger — " I shall not contend forever, nor
be always wroth, for the spirit would fail before me."
Therefore he would not be always wroth; and so the
Psalmist says — " His anger endureth but a moment; in his
favor js life; weeping may endure for a night, but joy
cometh in the morning."
Such is a picture of all the afflictive and primitive part of

108 REV. MR. SAWYER.
God's system. "His anger endureth but for a moment;"
a moment indeed, when compared with the eternity of
peace, and joy, and love, which His unerring first design has
provided for all the intelligent creatures of His hand. And
though their " weeping may endure for a night," though
they may tremble and be downcast in the dark places
whereunto their waywardness has led them— still, there is a
friend who cares for them, a Father who loves them, their
"joy cometh in the morning," and they are led back to love
and to happiness. God is said to be angry with the wicked
every day. He is angry now ; He is angry every day ;
but he retains not his wrath for eternity. As the Hebrew
says — continually they may be said to be fighting against
Him and He against them. He is angry, He is displeased
indeed ; but His anger does not endure for ever, nor is the
term of man's woe illimitable. For has not the Divine
Word itself said it — is it not plainly written on the Book of
Life — (not the Book of Death) — that, though their weep
ing may endure for a night, joy cometh in the morning?
There is a night indeed for all, but God has made a morn
ing which shall have no night to swallow it up. My brother
draws a picture of the final results of the divine government.
We agree, it seems, with respect to God's original design,
but fail to agree with respect to its issue. The great differ
ence between us is simply this : I firmly believe that the
great end which God, the all-wise, all-powerful, and all-good,
proposed to Himself, will be attained by Him ; my brother
believes that it will not. He believes God must fail ; he
believes there must be a failure, in part at least, with some
of the human race and entirely a failure with others of the
human race. He will bring some to infinite rewarding feli
city ; and here He will be successful so far, because this is
a part — (and only a part, remember,) — of His original great
design ; but others are to sink into unutterable and never-:

REV. MR. SAWYER. 109
ending misery ; and here He will fail, because, surely, even
my brother will not say that this was a part of the original
plan of the all-wise and all-good Being. The scheme was
one of happiness for all- — for all ; but it seems this cannot
be carried out ; a portion must go down into misery ; there
fore, on the whole, the scheme is a failure ; the plan and
purpose of Infinite Power fails ! Let us look for one mo
ment at this matter. I need not stop to ask you whether
it was wise and good in God to create millions and millions
of human beings, clearly foreseeing, (as the all-wise must
have foreseen,) that they would go down into infinite, end
less torments. I will not stop to ask you that question.
Where was the goodness and wisdom of that ? He was not
obliged to create them ; there was no occasion to create
them. Seeing they would fall into everlasting torment,
why did He bring them into existence ? But, having
brought them into existence, is there any occasion for
destroying, nay, tormenting them in this manner ? Could
He not do something with them, besides this ? He might
act as our destroying friends believe — that would be a
mercy. I regard that doctrine as one of the falsities of the
world ; but it is not so terrible, so revolting, as this of end
less torment. I am not surprised that many minds, horrified
by this doctrine of endless torments, are verging into the
belief that God will, by-and-by, put an end to the misery of
His helpless creatures. Let this doctrine be preached
widely, and, so natural a refuge does it afford from the
shocking, revolting, horrifying doctrine of everlasting tor
tures, that hundreds and thousands will be found to come
forwrard and embrace this doctrine of destruction. God
either does the best He can with those sinners whom He
cannot reform, or He does not do the best in his power with
them. If He does not do the best He can with them, the
best that His infinite goodness and mercy would permit —

110 REV. MR. SAWYER.
I ask, why does He not ? Why not be as benevolent and
kind as He can ? Perhaps I may be told He does the very
best. Let us look, then, a little further. Suppose, instead
of falling into the hands of a God of infinite love, sinners
should fall into the hands of the devil ; suppose him pos
sessed of infinite power and wisdom, and that he employed
both those qualities to make them miserable throughout
eternity, what worse could the devil himself do than that
which my brother claims that God does ? Suppose, with
respect to those unhappy creatures that they had been
created by the malignant enemy of God, the enemy of all
holiness and happiness, could they have been consigned to
any state of existence more horrible, more to be dreaded,
than that very state to which they are going forward under
the government of the benign God ? Are we having God
and the devil in such close contiguity ? The truth is — this
doctrine has been preached so much and so habitually, that
men have taken it without any trouble to examine it. How
many in this congregation have given it any thought ? How
many have sat down and thought of this doctrine in its
bearing on themselves, and on their children, and on their
friends, and on their race ? How many have really given
it sober consideration? How many have given it the con
sideration a question of such infinite magnitude demands?
I have here a little work from the Rev. Dr. Barnes, of
Philadelphia, with whose character you are all familiar. He
is a Presbyterian divine of great moral standing and worth.
I beg to read a few lines from his work :
" That sin should have been allowed to come into the
system formed by a holy God. That since he had power
to create or not, as he chose, and since worlds have been
made that were holy, and are still holy, that all should
not have been made so. That misery has come into the
universe, and that death, with many forms of woe, has been

REV. MR. SAWYER. Ill
commissioned to cut down one whole race, and that, in
doing it, the whole earth is strewed with hospitals, and
sick-beds, and graves. That the immortal mind should be
allowed to jeopard its infinite welfare, and that trifles should
be allowed to draw it away from God, and virtue, and
heaven. That any should suffer forever — lingering on in
hopeless despair, and rolling amidst infinite torments with
out the possibility of alleviation and without end. That
since God can save men, and will save a part, he has not
purposed to save all ; that on the supposition that the atone
ment is ample, and that the blood of Christ can cleanse
from all and every sin, it is not in fact applied to all.
That, in a word, a God who claims to be worthy of the
confidence of the universe, and to be a being of infinite
benevolence, should make such a world as this — full of
sinners and sufferers ; and that when an atonement had
been made, he did not save all the race, and put an end to
sin and woe forever.
" These, and kindred difficulties, meet the mind when
we think on this great subject ; and they meet us when we
endeavor to urge our fellow-sinners to be reconciled to God,
and to put confidence in him. On this ground they hesi
tate. These are real, not imaginary difficulties. They are
probably felt by every mind that ever reflected on the sub
ject — and they are unexplained, unmitigated, unremoved.
I confess, for one, that I feel them, and feel them more
sensibly and powerfully the more I look at them, and the
longer I live. I do not understand these facts ; and I make
no advances towards understanding them. I do not know
that I have a ray of light on this subject which I had not
when the subject first flashed across my soul. I have read,
to some extent, what wise and good men have written. I
have looked at their various theories and explanations. I
have endeavored to weigh their arguments — for my whole
soul pants for light and relief on these questions. But I
get neither ; and in the distress and anguish of my own
spirit, I confess that I see no light whatever. I see not one
ray to disclose to me the reason why sin came into the
world ; why the earth is strewed with the dying and the
dead, and why man must suffer to all eternity. I have
never seen a particle of light thrown on these subjects that
has given a moment's ease to my tortured mind ; nor have

112 REV. MR. WESCOTT.
I an explanation to offer, or a thought to suggest, which
would be a relief to you. I trust other men — as they pro
fess to do — understand this better than I do, and that they
have not the anguish of spirit which I have ; but I confess,
when I look on a world of sinners and of sufferers ; upon
death-beds and grave-yards ; upon the world of woe filled
with hosts to suffer forever ; — wjien I see my friends, my
parents, my family, my people, my fellow-citizens — when I
look upon a whole race, all involved in this sin and danger,
and when I see the great mass of them wholly unconcerned,
and when I feel that God only can save thern and yet that
he does not do it, I am struck dumb. It is all dark — dark
— dark to my soul — and I cannot disguise it." — Barnes'
Practical Sermons, pp. 123-125.
He well says that this remains unexplained, and by the
system of orthodoxy it will remain so to the end of eternity.
And how strange, yet wholly consistent is his closing decla
ration — " It is all dark, dark, dark to my soul, and I cannot
disguise it ! " Here is an honest mind, that has dived into
the depths of this terrible subject ; — you see how it is
received, and how it operates there.
Rev. Mr. Wescott. — The difference between my oppo
nent and Dr. Barnes, is the same as that which is between
my opponent and the Psalmist. My opponent is deter
mined to seek out God. " The secret things beiong unto
the Lord our God ; but these things which are revealed
belong unto us, and to our children for ever." The Psalmist
says with Dr. Barnes, " Such knowledge is too wonderful
for me ; it is high ; I cannot attain unto it." And thus
says the Apostle, " Great is the mystery of godliness."
No, sir ; no man can ever know the wonderful nature of
God, — His ways are not our ways ; and any attempt brings
but confusion on him who makes it. Better be humble,
and confess that we know nothing of so high a theme.
Besides; let Dr. Barnes say what he may, the question for

REV. MR. WESCOTT. 113
us is, — " Do the Holy Scriptures teach the final salvation
of all men ? "
I shall have to leave some things for Tuesday night,
of course. We again have the story of God's being the
father of all men, and all the human family being His
children ; but, there is an advancement ; before the end,
we will probably get together. My brother puts on the
supplement ; he says we do not become the children of
God spiritually, until the Spirit is infused into our hearts.
That is what Paul teaches, therefore I agree with my
brother. But, he says we are the children of God before ;
we are God's children even without grace ; — that I do not
go in for ; that is not in the book of God. With regard to
the atonement I have nothing to say to-night, but on Tues
day night I will try to give you the scriptural views on
that subject. I will endeavor to give you the scriptural
views (for they are mine) on the plan of redemption. My
brother alludes to some texts I quoted. 1 do not wonder
at the manner in which he alludes to them ; they are stub
born things; I made no remarks; simply quoted the words
of Divine Revelation. " He that believeth and is baptized,
shall be saved ; he that believeth not shall be damned."
These are not my words ; they were uttered by our final
judge ; the judge of the just and the unjust. He made a
difference between the damned and the saved. Christ said,
" He that believeth, and is baptized, shall be saved ; he that
believeth not, shall be damned." Did he mean the same
by both ? These are the words of the unerring guide. I
made no remarks upon them ; I quoted them. Last even
ing I said that Hades means in itself, neither a place of
happiness nor a place of misery — but, the place ofthe dead.
But the connexion shows its meaning in the passage under
consideration. The rich man was in that place, Hades, —
but I proved that the place he was in was one of misery, —

114 REV. MR. WESCOTT.
for other words in the text declare that he was tormented. I
have no doubt but the corresponding Hebrew word will mean
the same thing in the place. But the case is not so with regard
to the word Gehenna, for that in the New Testament, inva
riably means a place of unending misery. Into that I
will not go now ; but, when we come to that stage of the
argument, if I cannot prove the endless misery of those
who reject grace through Christ, I never will attempt to
preach again. I have no more fear on that matter, that I
could clearly prove it to any court and jury, entirely igno
rant of any teachings ofthe holy scriptures, on the evidence
I could bring, than on any other single question that can be
conceived. We have not arrived at that yet ; that is our
great battle ground; we shall get there by-and-by. Yes,
the Saviour meant something when he drew a distinction
between those that were to be damned and those that were
to be saved.
My opponent quotes this, " Weeping may endure for a
night, but joy cometh in the morning." This is a mistake
of his, — he takes children's meat and gives it to the dogs ;
he confounds two classes whom God keeps apart, as widely
separated as day and night ; the righteous and the wicked,
believers and unbelievers, friends of God and enemies of
God. He brings them all together, and deals out God's
promises to those who have no taste for them. He says to
those who love and serve Him, that though dark clouds
may gather around them, still the glorious beams of His
gracious promise will penetrate to their souls. But of the
wicked he says, " They shall be clothed with shame," and
" in His hand is a cup ; it is full of mixture, and He
poureth out of the same ; but the dregs thereof all the
wicked of the earth will wring them out, and drink them."
There is the difference which the Divine Word itself draws
between the two classes of human beings, and this differ-

REV. MR. WESCOTT. 115
ence all the sophistries of my learned opponent will never
be able to obliterate. " God so loved the world that he
gave his only-begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in
him should not perish but have everlasting life — but he that
believeth not is condemned." " He that believeth on the
Son hath everlasting life, and he that believeth not on the
Son shall not see life ; but the wrath of God abideth on
him." He that believeth on the Son hath life, but the
wrath of God, not cometh, but abideth, remaineth on him
that does not believe in Jesus.
This is the distinction my brother does not see, plainly,
as, to my eyes, it is kept by God from the first chapter
of Genesis to the last of Revelation ; — the promises of God
were all made to the believers, not to those who rejected
Christ, and scoffed at his mercy and love. Again ; my
brother says, " If God knew they would be lost, why did
He make man ? " This I have explained'as well as I can ;
I cannot do it any better. Men were invited to the very
highest possible enjoyment ; to this it was necessary to
give them moral agency, freedom to act well or ill — they
have made their choice ; I cannot explain this any better.
My brother asks how the devil could be more cruel ; I
thought of the apostle's words, " Nay, but oh man ! who
art thou that repliest against God ? Shall the thing formed
say to him that formed it, ' Why hast thou made me thus ?'
Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump
to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor ?
What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make His
power known, endured with much long-suffering the vessels
of wrath, fitted to destruction." It is astonishing how
Universalism clashes with all God's truth, with revelation,
with inspiration.
Again, my brother deals with our sympathy, he asks us
whether we have sat down and thought if our children

116 REV. MR. WESCOTT.
would be lost. But, I ask, what has sympathy to do with the
question ? He arraigns my God for simply allowing me to
do as I please. He has told me — that road leads to hell,
that to heaven ; He has given me an intelligent mind, and
then, if I will go to hell, God is a tyrant, because, after all the
motives to a right choice which He has set before me, I
please to choose wrongly ! No, no, it is not so, fellow sin
ner. You have the choice ; you may say the door of heaven
is wide open thrown by the blood of the Son of God ; the
voice from Calvary's cross sounds in your ears, inviting all
of you to go, by the cross, to heaven — but, if you will not,
you must perish — you must perish ! My opponent asked
last night, if God's plan of mercy failed in getting us to
heaven, could we not say that God cannot force us to hell ;
(I give it with qualification, which it needs.) God cannot
force intelligent minds to enjoyment ; that I grant ; but He
can to the reverse. To illustrate : the State government
cannot force citizens to virtuous courses, but it can force
them to prison, to the gallows. And so, if men will break
the silken cord of God's mercy — then, the strong chain of
Omnipotence binds them to His bar.
I wish to give you, in closing, my third reason why I
cannot be a Universalist. I cannot be a Universalist, be
cause my being so would require me to do away, or deny,
all that class of sacred texts that represent a limited time in
which the sinner may reach God and find heaven. My
brother told us we could reform our character in time inde
finite ; but there is a class of texts which seem to show a
limited time to seek God. Thus we read : " These things
hast thou done and I kept silence ; thou thoughtest that I
was altogether such a one as thyself, but I will reprove thee
and set thee in order before thine eyes. Now, consider
this, ye that forget God, lest I tear you in pieces, and there
be none to deliver." Again, in Ezekiel 13 : 22, "Because

REV. MR. WESCOTT. 1 17
with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom
I have not made sad ; and strengthened the hands of the
wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by
promising him life." Again, Isaiah 55 : 6, " Seek ye the
Lord while he may be found, call upon him while he is
near." Again, 2 Corinth. 6:2, " Behold, now is the
accepted time ; behold, now is the day of salvation." Again,
" Enter ye in at the strait gate, for wide is the gate and
broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there
be which go in thereat." " That, then, will I profess to
them, I never knew you ; depart from me, ye that work
iniquity." Again, in Proverbs, " Because I have called and
ye refused ; I have stretched out my hand, and no man re
garded ; But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and
would none of my reproof: I also will laugh at your
calamity, I will mock when your fear cometh. When your
fear cometh as desolation and your destruction cometh as a
whirlwind, when distress and anguish cometh upon you.
Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer. They
shall seek me early, but they shall not find me, For that
they hated knowledge and did not choose the fear of the
Lord." To be a Universalist I must deny that class of texts ; I
must arraign the right aud power of Jehovah ; yes, I must
arraign the Divine Throne, and Jehovah must account to
me for all that He has done and said ! God forbid ! Let
me find my place at the feet of my Maker — swallowed up
in His infinite will ; then shall I know what peace is — and
not till then.

FLFTH EVENING.
The Rev. Mr. Goodno offered prayer.
Rev. Dr. Sawyer. — My learned opponent presented a
reason the other evening why he could not be a Universal
ist. It was that I had somewhere said that I believed man
to possess the same constitution now, physically and mo
rally, as that which he had when he was created. My
brother seemed to regard that as a very hazardous declara
tion, indeed, and directly in the face of the scriptures ; but
I have not seen any reason for changing my opinion. I
believe that precisely now, and I think he believes it also,
and you believe it likewise. I believe, for instance, that
man is a moral being, that is, free to do right or do wrong,
and that he is responsible to God, his great moral governor,
for the exercise of his faculties. Does not my brother be
lieve this ? Man was created such a being when he was
first made ; he retains the same constitution to-day, or he is
another being that God did not make. He will retain it
throughout all eternity, otherwise God's government over
him must cease, and punishment as well as sin, come to an
end. My brother would, I think, 'do well to distinguish a
little between constitution and character. My watch, for
example, has a certain mechanical constitution ; it may
sometimes run too fast and sometimes too slow, and that
would be the character of its keeping time ; but the consti
tution of the watch is the same, or else it is a different

REV. MR. SAWYER. 1 19
instrument. Man has the same constitution, and always
must have had : his character differs every day, according
to his life, just as he does well or ill, just as he serves God
or serves him not.
I will quote a single passage from Bishop Butler in rela
tion to this matter, which seems to me to be decisive, and
which I had in my eye, if I remember aright, when I wrote
the passage to which my brother objects : " We should
learn to be cautious lest we charge God foolishly by as
cribing that to him, or the nature he has given us, which is
owing wholly to our abuse of it. Men may speak of the
degeneracy and corruption of the world according to the
experience they have had of it ; but human nature, consi
dered as the divine workmanship, should, methinks, be
treated as sacred ; for in the image of God made He man."
My opponent has a great desire, it seems, to exhibit to
you the doctrine of endless torments. He says if he can
not prove to any court and jury that the word "Gehenna,"
through the whole New Testament, always means the place
of such torment, he will never preach again. To this I
have two remarks to make. In the first place, I advise him
to be preparing to leave the ministry very soon, because
he has not the power to prove any such thing as he asserts :
it is not in the power of mortal to do it. Secondly : I wish
to observe that it hardly, with propriety, belongs to this
discussion to prove the doctrine of endless torments ; our
question being — " Do the Holy Scriptures teach the final
salvation of all men ?"" Two or three evenings ago, you
will remember, my brother said he had nothing to do but
follow me, and knock down my work. Perhaps I may be
altogether mistaken, but it seems to me there is considerable
work of this kind to be knocked down yet that is standing
directly in his way. Let him show, if he can, that my
principles and premises are false. Let him him show, if he

120 REV. MR. SAWYER.
can, that the numerous passages of scripture I have adduced
do not prove the doctrine for which I have adduced them.
If, after this discussion is ended, my learned brother wishes
to attempt to prove the doctrine of endless torment, I shall
be but too happy to meet him here, or anywhere, whenever
it may suit his convenience, to go over that whole ground
of endless punishment as taught (he says) in the Bible. I
hope to be able to show, on such an occasion, and under
such circumstances, that that terrible doctrine, however
popular it may be, however strong may be the belief ac
corded it by the multitude, finds no adequate support in the
Scriptures of Divine Revelation.
Now, in any government, punishment can have but three
objects, some one or more of which must be contemplated
in every infliction. Its first and most important end, is
always to reform the punished ; and that government is the
best which reforms the most. Its second end is, by the
influence of example, to deter others from similar offences.
The third and last is, to place the criminal beyond the possi
bility of repeating his transgression — as when we confine a
thief in prison to prevent him from stealing, or when we
hang a murderer to prevent him from committing another
murder. Now, endless punishment, if there be any such
thing in the universe of God, cannot have reference to any
one of these ends ; and if it have not, I ask my brother to
tell us what object it has in view. It does not propose to
reform men ; if it did, it would accord with the Bible and
with Universalism. But no one can pretend that endless
punishment was ever designed to reform men. Neither
does it propose to benefit others by the influence of example ;
because, unfortunately, the example is not given till after
the whole scene of mortal probation is ended, and, conse
quently, nobody that we know of is to be benefited by it.
It does not propose to prevent sinners from continuing in

REV. MR. SAWYER. 121
sin ; because (if I understand aright) it is the very means
adopted by the Almighty for keeping them in sin — perpetual
sin throughout eternity.
What, then, is the object of endless punishment I I have
asked this question again and again throughout my life, and
never have I received a satisfactory answer, nor do I believe
that one can be rendered. Are we, then, to believe in a
doctrine which has no ground — for which we can assign no
adequate or rational reason ?
In carrying forward my argument this evening, I propose
to follow, as heretofore, and according to the terms of our
question — the same method I have hitherto pursued. I
propose to offer you passages of scripture that seem to me
to teach the final salvation of all men. In the language of
the prophet, — " To the law and to the testimony, if they
speak not according to His word, it is because there is no
light in them." If the Bible does not teach this doctrine, I
do not wish to believe it. Last Friday evening — Thursday
and Friday evenings — I considered passages presenting them
selves in the Old Testament. I shall, this evening, begin
by calling your attention to the New.
Before the birth of our Saviour, (which constitutes the
central point of light around which the whole economy devel
oped in the New Testament is made to move ; before He
was born, I say,) — an angel was sent from heaven to Joseph,
the husband of Mary, with this declaration with respect to
his wife : " She shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call
His name Jesus — for He shall save His people from their
sins." Jesus is a Hebrew word, signifying Saviour ; the
announcement, therefore, was equivalent to this — " Thou
shalt call His name Saviour, for He shall save His people."
But, who are Christ's people ? Not the little company of
saints of whom my brother so frequently speaks. His people
were far more extensive. They were, on the contrary,
6

122 REV. MR. SAWYER.
sinners, persons who needed salvation, and the groat mercy
which He was to perform towards them was — to save them
from their sins. Who were they, then ? I answer, they
were the whole world, with reference to whom the whole of
Christ's public ministry was performed. "Ask of me,"
says the Almighty, " and I shall give thee the heathen for
thy inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy
possession." Christ was to become their ruler and governor,
their King ! " The Father loveth the Son," says the Evan
gelist, " and hath given all things into his hand." " Thou
hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give
eternal life to as many as thou hast given him."
God has appointed Christ the heir of all things — He has
made Him Lord of all. All souls, then, are Christ's. He
did not come to save any that are not His own ; He came
to His own ; He came to save His own ; He did not taste
death for those that did not belong to him — but He did taste
death for every man ; and so the angel with great propriety
says — " Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save
his people" — yes, His people, the whole world of mankind,
" from their sins."
Secondly. — When Christ was born, the event was cele
brated by another , visit of an angel : he appeared to the
shepherds, and, we are told, appeared in the glory of the
Lord ; that glory " shone round about them, and they were
sore afraid." But he said to them, " Fear not, for behold !
I bring you glad tidings of great joy, which shall be unto all
people ; for unto you is born, this day, in the city of David,
a Saviour, which is the Christ, the Lord." And, suddenly,
we are told, there was with the angel a multitude of the
heavenly host, praising God, and saying : " Glory to God in
the highest, and on earth peace and good-will toward men."
The apostle tells us this glad tidings of great joy was to be
to all people — it was not to be to a little sect, to a small

REV. MR. SAWYER. 123
party of men, not to the Jewish nation alone, but to all
people without distinction. It has not yet been so ; it never
was so ; it is not so now ; all people have not heard that
name ; all people have not been made acquainted with those
" glad tidings of great joy ;" but the angel promised that it
would be so, and I have ever believed the angel's declara
tion. If my brother cannot believe it, I will pity his weak
faith and hold fast to my own. When the good old Simeon
entered into the temple, and laid his eyes, now dim with
many years, upon the form of that young child Jesus, and
took him in his aged arms, he said : " Now lettest thou thy
servant depart in peace, for mine eyes have seen thy salva
tion, which thou hast prepared before the face of all people,
a light to lighten the Gentiles and the glory of thy people,
Israel." Simeon saw something more in Him than the
popular theologians of the present day see. He saw in
Him a joy and light, not for one nation alone, but all nations,
and the salvation prepared before the face of all people.
Before our Saviour began to preach, and while John, with
his disciples, was carrying forward his ministry, he, one
day, saw Jesus of Nazareth passing by, and called the atten
tion of his disciples to Him, saying, " Behold the Lamb of
God, that taketh away the sin of the world." "The sin of
the world !" By His taking away the sin of the world I
understand His removing it, His converting' sinners to the
truth, His saving men from sin, and it was to be the sin of
the world ; not yours nor mine alone ; not that of a few of
us ; but the sense is larger and broader. The apostle tells
us the same thing when he says that, " For this purpose
the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the
works of the devil" — that is, destroy sin, for sin is the work
of the devil. The prophet Isaiah says : " Surely he hath
borne our griefs and carried our sorrows ; He was wounded
for our transgressions and bruised for our iniquities • the

124 REV. MR. SAWYER.
chastisement of our peace was upon Him, and with His
stripes we are healed." Saint Matthew refers to this decla
ration when relating how Christ healed all that were sick,
and says that this declaration of Isaiah's was to be fulfilled,
" That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the
prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities and bare our
sicknesses." He was promised to this end. Not that
Christ became infirm and sick, but became the remover of
our infirmities and sicknesses, and healed us : and, so, He
takes away our sins ; He was promised to finish transgression,
make an end of sin, and bring in everlasting righteousness.
Our Saviour bore much testimony to Himself; in a great
many passages he speaks of His own character, His offices,
the mission on which He came, and what He came to ac
complish. Thus He says, " I am the light of the world."
John had already said of Him, that He was " the true light
that lighteneth every one that cometh into the world."
This did not mean that every man was then, at that moment,
enlightened by Him ; but He was the sun of the moral uni
verse, and in that sun all should ultimately rejoice ; all
eyes should receive from it streams of light, all hearts drink
from it streams of life.
Again ; He said, " I am the bread of life ;" " The bread
of God is He which cometh down from heaven, and giveth
life to the world." " I am come that they might have life,
and that they might have it more abundantly." " The Son
of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save
them." Again we read, " The Son of man is come to seek
and to save that which was lost." We hear a great deal
of lost sinners — of lost souls ; preachers speak of them
frequently ; they are lost ! Well, if lost, they must have
belonged to some one — and, indeed, must still properly
belong to some one. We do not say that the pebble on
the shore of the sea is lost, because it belongs to no one ;

REV. MR. SAWYER. 125
but when a sheep goes astray, we say it is lost, because we
know very well it belonged to some owner — it had some
shepherd ; and when a man is lost, we say so, because he
belongs indeed to God — still belongs to our all-loving God,
and is only out of his place Christ, then, came to seek and
save that which was lost. What was lost? A few men, or
all ? Do not all sin, and come short of the glory of God ?
The prophet says, " All were like sheep, and have gone
astray. We have turned every one his own way, and the
Lord hath laid upon Him the iniquity of us all." Our
Saviour took up and dwelt on this figure of lost sheep, with
so much emphasis and effect. " What man of you, having
a hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the
ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which
is lost until he find it ? And when he hath found it he
layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing ; and when he cometh
home," &c, &c. I wish you to observe that this owner, or
shepherd, had a hundred sheep, out of which number he lost
only one ; but he could not rest ; he must go after the lost
one ; and when he found it, so glad was he that he raised
it, placed it on his shoulders, and carried it home, rejoicing.
Are we not also. told that there is joy in heaven — that the
angels rejoice more over one sinner that returneth from his
sin, than over ninety and nine just persons who need not
repentance, (if there be such) ? Shall this joy be crushed
iu its bud, or shall it go on increasing, till there shall not
be one lost sheep in the universe of God ? Not one lost
sheep that is not restored, and the joy of heaven full ?
Hear our Saviour again : " I am the good shepherd," — it
was a mode of expression he loved, and God had, before-
time, been called the Shepherd of Israel,) — " I am the good
shepherd ; the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep."
" He that is a hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own
the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the

126 REV. MR. SAWYER.
sheep and fleeth, and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth
the sheep. The hireling fleeth because he is an hireling,
and careth not for the sheep. I am the good shepherd ;
therefore my father loveth me, because I lay down my life
for the sheep." We must infer, if our Saviour had been
merely a hireling, and had no deeper interest in the welfare
of mankind than some would lead us to suppose, that he
would have tired out and wearied before the consummation.
But no ; the good shepherd, whose sheep is lost, does not
so easily turn back, but seeks the lost one until it is found;
and, if the wolf comes, he lays down his life for the sheep,
rather than surrender them ; — by his life he is willing to
work out their salvation. " I am the good shepherd," he
says, " Therefore my father loveth me, because I lay down
my life for the sheep." This very self consecration, this
devotion of Himself for the interests ofthe flock, constituted
one of the bands that bound God's heart to him. And not
only so, but lest the Jews, ever prejudiced, ever ready to
think that every thing should belong to them alone, —
(somewhat in the spirit of my brother, when he complained
that I took the meat of the children and gave it to the
dogs,) — lest the Jews, I say, should suppose that this care
was to belong to them alone, and not to the whole world,
he added, " And other sheep have I, which are not of this
fold ;" — sheep lying beyond you, of whom you little think
now, — " Them also will I bring, and there shall be one fold,
and one shepherd."
Yes ; in the great consummation there shall be one fold,
and one shepherd. My brother thinks there shall be two;
Christ with his little fold, and the devil with his ! But not
so ; there shall be one fold and one shepherd ; the great
shepherd and bishop of souls. You will remember the
occasion of our Saviour's conversation with the Samaritan
woman ; and how she ran, and told the men there, whom

REV. MR. SAWYER. 127
she found about the gate, of the man who had told her
everything she had done in all her life-time ; and " is not
this the Christ ? " said she. Some believed, because of her
words. But, when Christ went down, and remained with
them two days, preaching and teaching the things pertaining
to the kingdom, a great many, at the end of that time, be
lieved on him, and said to the woman, " Now we believe,
not because of thy saying, for we have heard him ourselves,
and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the
world." The Saviour of the world ! I do not see how
people can read such declarations as this, " I am the light
of the world ;" " I am the bread of the world ;" " I am the
life of the world ;" " This is the Saviour of the world," and
see no consequences from them. It seems to me- this lan
guage means something more than a few elect persons, as
the Calvinists teach, or a few persons whom Christ shall
gather together in the process of time, according to the popular
orthodox faith. Suppose a man is crossing a river with his
wife and family, their boat is overset, they are struggling
with the waves, and all in danger of perishing ; and then
suppose some one launches out, and saves the husband and
two or three ofthe children, while the wife and two or three
more of the children are lost, what would be the surprise
of the neighborhood, if the papers next day would, in an
nouncing the fact, characterize that man as the saviour of
the whole family ! " The whole family !" they would
exclaim, " but he saved only a part ; he saved the husband
and two or three ofthe children — but the wife and more of
the children are lost ; he did not save the half of them !"
But the papers insist — " Oh ! he is indeed the saviour of
the whole family." Everybody would say it was false ¦
yet it would be no more false than is the interpretation
that this declaration means a small number, a small part.
The bible says, with great emphasis, that He is the Saviour of

128 REV. MR. WESCOTT.
the world ; I do not know how we can read such language
without giving it its proper meaning. "The world " means
the world, unless there be some good reason why we should
alter it from its signification. Once more, — but my time is
up ; the argument, however, is not up.
Rev. Mr. Wescott. — We have one passage of scripture
that I am forcibly reminded of, " He that is first in his own
cause seemeth just; but, another cometh, and searcheth
him." We have had this evening, as previously, a great
number of texts, some of them bearing on the subject, and
these will be noticed in due time ; but the great mass of
them having no more allusion to the question we are dis
cussing, than they have to the Russian war, or the Nebraska
bill ; these will not be noticed. Before entering, however,
on a consideration of the relevant texts, I shall, as three or
four evenings have elapsed since we last met, pause a little
to review what we have done, and see whether any great
and prominent principles have been settled thus far, and, if
so, what they are, that we may put up our land-marks, and
be able to tell where we are. _ ,
In the first place, then, as regards the attributes of God
requiring the final holiness and happiness of all men, we
have found that God is perfect in all his attributes ; that
sin and misery do exist under the government of God ; and
that, therefore, sin and misery, under the government of
God, are not inconsistent with the divine attributes. Hence
the conclusion is manifest, that the attributes of God do not
require the final holiness and happiness of all mankind. So
much we have settled. In the next place we have ascer
tained that, whatever God does, must be in accordance with
His will ; but that man, being a moral agent, frequently
does things which are displeasing to God ; and that, there
fore, God's will is not always done in the world. And of

REV. MR. WESCOTT. 129
the truth of this conclusion we have instances in abundance,
for men steal, and swear, and lie, and bear false witness ;
thus committing sins which God has distinctly forbidden.
God's will, then, is not done ; and God may have had a
gracious plan — a will — and yet it not be accomplished.
Thirdly ; it is agreed that, with whatever propriety creation
may entitle us, or the animal creation, or inanimate nature,
to the name of Children of God, yet, in that spiritual sense
which constitutes us heirs of God, and joint heirs with
Christ to the heavenly inheritance, we can become the
Children of God only by receiving, and being led by, the
Spirit of God. To that both of us agreed : both said, on
Friday evening, that we cannot be God's children spiritu
ally, but by receiving, and being led by, the Spirit. Not
only did we agree, but we both happened to agree with Paul
— in this respect.
Fourthly ; it was said, on our last evening, by my oppo
nent, that Christ is the restorer of a lost and ruined world,
— to which I most heartily respond. Hence we perceive
that there are four great principles arrived at, and that each
of them is a death-blow to a prominent principle of Univer
salism ; each of them renders it as much impossible for
Universalism to exist in truth, as for a house to stand with
all its corner-stones knocked out. So far we have gone : so
far we have made our advance. But, let us examine this
last admission — " Christ is the restorer of a lost and ruined
world." Let us examine this. By " world," I suppose my
opponent meant the family of men : — he could not mean
by the word, in this connexion, rivers, lakes, oceans, islands,
continents ; these are not lost : he must have meant the
family of men. Well, then, if lost and ruined without
Christ, that condition must be the consequence of some
thing, and that something unquestionably is sin. If, then,
God has inflicted that misery upon men, which my brother
6*

130 REV. MR. WESCOTT.
calls the state of being " lost and ruined," is that condition
just ? Was God just in inflicting that upon them ? If so,
would the world have been justly lost and ruined, if Christ
had never come ? We must all answer in the affirmative.
Well, then, if the world would have been justly lost
and ruined without Christ, and if, in the next place, any
man reject Christ, he is left in that lost and ruined con
dition. And if it would have been just in God to leave
the world in that lost and ruined condition, without
Christ, clearly, it will be just in God to leave eternally
every man who rejects Christ in the same lost and ruined
state. This is as clear as the sunbeam. And with this
the blessed words of Jesus agree. Hear what He says on
this point : — in John 3 : 36, " He that believeth on the Son
hath life ; and he that believeth not the Son shall not see
life, but the wrath of God abideth on him." Abideth —
remains — just as if Christ had never come; and that state
is "lost and ruined." Oh! ye men that are relying, in
your sins, on a feather for your hope, listen to the words of
your Saviour and final judge ; " He that believeth not on
the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth " —
(that is, remains) — '¦ on him." He remains in the lost and
ruined state. But, can men reject Christ? Not if what
we have heard this evening be true, they cannot. Can they
reject Christ? Can they avoid belief in Christ? Let ns
look again. We have recorded in the 13th of Luke, some
where about the 23d verse, an interesting conversation
between one of the disciples and the Saviour. One of the
disciples says, "Lord, are there few that be saved?"
What an interesting opportunity for Jesus to clear up the
mists in their darkened minds ! The apostles, like other
Jews, believed in a future state, and believed in endless
punishment. The disciples' mind feared in regard to the des
tiny of the human family. They inquired about this great

REV. MR. WESCOTT. 131
result, — " Lord, are there few that be saved ?" If Christ
had been a Universalist, he would have said, — " Oh, sir,
you mistake the whole matter; every individual of the
human family will be saved." Did he say thus ? Mark
the emphatic words of Jesus : " Strive to enter in at the
strait gate ; for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter
in and shall not be able. When once the master of the
house is risen up and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to
stand without and to knock at the door, saying, 'Lord,
Lord, open unto us ;' and he shall answer and say unto you,
' I know you not whence you are.' " What mean these words
of Christ ? In answer to a simple question touching the
final salvation of few or many, what means an answer like
that ? Is it calculated to diminish or to strengthen their
belief in endless punishment ? What means such an an
swer, so well calculated to impress on their minds the
danger of being shut out from the kingdom of heaven ?
" But," say you, or rather said the gentleman on Friday
night, quoting from Isaiah 45 : 24, " all men shall say, Surely
in the Lord have I righteousness and strength." I thought
that passage favorable to his views. As he read it, it did
seem to be so. Some will bear in mind that I remarked I
had not critically examined that text, but that he read it
differently from what it was in our translation. Let me
read the whole passage: "Look unto me, and be ye saved,
all the ends of the earth ; for I am God, and there is none
else. I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my
mouth in righteousness, and shall not return ; that unto me
every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. Surely,
shall one say," — (not all say, but one say ; and here, allow
me to observe, I do not think my brother read it " all," but
I think that was the impression left on the minds of the
audience,) — " in the Lord have I righteousness and strength ;
even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed

132 REV. MR. WESCOTT.
against him shall be ashamed." That part — "all incensed
against him shall be ashamed," my brother did not read.
He said, in answer to a question I put to him, that the
"one" is supplied by the translators. The question is —
Why is " one " supplied instead of the plural noun or pro
noun ? My answer is : The verb is in the third person
singular, and a noun should be in the singular number to agree
with it. There is another reason, and a more important
one. The last sentence of the text implies that a part of
the human family is left out, — " and all that are incensed
against him shall be ashamed ;" and, connecting that with
the sixteenth verse, (which the best German and English
critics say are intimately connected) we have this : " Come
unto me all the ends of the earth ; come, as the willing
subjects of my grace, or the conquered subjects of my
power. Then all shall confess to my power — but they shall
do so one by one ; that is, it must be an individual work ;
there will be no converting in masses : they that reject me
shall be covered with shame and confusion, and scattered
abroad as by the winds of heaven." That is the meaning
of this passage !
The text, therefore, means nothing to my brother's pur
pose. I have another reason for this interpretation still. The
apostle Paul takes this passage, " Unto me every knee shall
bow, and every tongue confess;" and, in Romans 14 : 1, 10,
11, and 12th verses, makes this use of it : " For we shall all
stand before the judgment-seat of Christ. For it is written,
As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and
every tongue, shall confess to God. So then every one
of us shall give account of himself to God." You see,
then, clearly, that this bowing to God, and confessing, is to
be at the judgment-seat, where just and unjust are to be
arraigned, and where every man is to have done to him
according to the deeds which he has done in the flesh. This

REV. MR. WESCOTT. 133
text in Isaiah, of which we have been speaking, is a gra
cious invitation to every sinner to come and receive the
mercy offered him within mercy's hour. While many will
reject Christ and perish forever, we have a blest assurance
that there is an ample sufficiency in Christ for all that will
receive him. He has become the vicarious atonement for
all sinners ; I mean that he suffered for and instead of sin
ners, and offered such satisfaction as makes it consistent
with the divine law to forgive the sinner. It is said the
sufferings of Christ are not called in the New Testament
"atonement," but that the meaning is "reconciliation."
But translators everywhere give "atonement:" the Greek
word is iXatffAo's, which the septuagint has rendered the
Hebrew word Kopher. Thus we read in First John 2 : 3,
" And he is the propitiation for our sins ; and not for ours
only, but also for the sins of the whole world ;" and in the
fourth chapter of the same, tenth verse, — " sent his Son to
be the propitiation for our sins." In both instances it is
iXarfjios. Now, by atonement I understand the propitiation
of the New Testament : a transaction which renders it just
in God to forgive sins under certain circumstances. It is
one thing for a friend to forgive a personal offence, and quite
another for a ruler to forgive a public offender. A ruler
cannot forgive a public offence without impairing the force
of the law and its penalty. If God would restore sinners
to favor without satisfaction to the great controlling prin
ciple of his holy law, he would thereby incite rebellion. If
this point be controverted, we will resort to the scriptures
to establish it ; otherwise, we will allow it to pass as
it is. In regard to some texts quoted here this evening — and we
have had an avalanche of them — some of them seem to de
mand a careful answer. As to Butler's remarks, they are
nothing with me. I shall not be drawn into a consideration of

134 REV. MR. WESCOTT.
the divines of the Saybrook platform, nor into the catechism,
nor into anything else of the kind. I am bound by no
man's system; I wear no man's shackles.
My opponent's remarks on the moral constitution of men
being contrary to the general view, my criticism was per-
fecty appropriate, and so was the list of texts from the
sacred scriptures which I brought forward to support it. In
due time, when we get to the subject of future endless
punishment, I shall notice the texts in which Gehenna
occurs ; this evening there is no necessity of this.
" The numerous passages," (says my opponent,) " which
I have adduced heretofore have been unanswered." Not one
has been unanswered, that I recollect, unless one in the
Epistles, which shall be noticed in due time. He says the
question whether there is or not endless punishment does
not naturally belong to this discussion. Well, I suppose
he would rather not have it discussed, though it probably
will be. He says punishment is designed for one of three
things — either to reform the penitent, or to prevent others
from falling into sin, or — but the third has escaped my
memory, having been interrupted at the time. There are
two cases in which it is proper. Let us just notice the
second — " to prevent others from sin." There are hundreds
to-night trying to believe Universalism, drinking in the first
drop of it, trying to shut their eyes against the dreadful
threatenings of God's law that loom up in the moral
horizon. Is there no good effect derived from these threats
of punishment ? Surely then these threatenings are calcu
lated to restrain from vice. But the entire effect of punish
ment is not merely this ; it is sometimes good to vindicate
the injured majesty of the law. We imprison in our State
prisons ; we wish the reformation of the criminal, it is true,
but do we pay no regard to the outraged majesty of our

REV. MR. WESCOTT. 135
law ? And is the majesty of God's law not to be vindi
cated ?
Then my brother brings the following passage of scrip
ture : " Thou shalt call his name Jesus, and he shall save
his people from their sins." Who are his people? This
question he asks, and answers, " the whole world." Unhap
pily there is a little difference between him and Christ on
this point. In the celebrated prayer in the xvii. John, " I
pray for them ; I pray not for the world, but for them
which thou hast given me, for they are thine, and all mine
are thine, and thine are mine." He did not pray for the
world, but for those who were given him ! Here is the
difference between my opponent and Christ ; he can settle
it with Him, not with me. Nowhere has Jesus uttered a
prayer for the salvation of the whole world. He said of
one man, Judas, that it were better for that man that he
had never been born. Were a man to suffer during as
many millions of years as we can conceive, and then be re
stored to holiness and happiness, and have an eternity of
blessedness before him, it could not be said of him that it
were better for him had he never been born.
Then my opponent quotes another text ; it is in the second
Psalm ; (I wish he would give the references to his texts, it
would enable me to turn to them more readily ;) it repre
sents the Father saying to Christ, " Ask of me, and I will
give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the utter
most parts of the earth for thy possession." Let me quote
the very next verse, " Thou shalt break them with a rod of
iron ; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel."
If that makes universal salvation, he is welcome to it !
The apostle says, at the judgment seat of Christ every
knee shall bow, every tongue shall confess ; so says God
the Father, " My Son shall reign over the whole universe •"
"I give him the heathen for his inheritance, and the utter-

136 REV. MR. WESCOTT.
most parts of the earth for his possession ; and those that
are incensed against him he shall break with a rod of iron,
and dash them to pieces like a potter's vessel." These are
the texts that we are flooded with. In them is no reference
to the great question of man's ultimate salvation — at least
we certainly have nothing in its favor. " He came to his
own," quoted my opponent. " His own," said my oppo
nent, is the whole world. Well, you will find the descrip
tion of this event in the First of John. But what was the
result ? " His own received him not." That is the expres
sion, and, I ask, how much does that make for universal
salvation ? Again, we have, " I bring you good tidings of
great joy, which shall be for all people." I admit this has
a bearing upon the question ; but let me ask, is it necessary
that every individual ofthe human family must be made a
recipient of gospel grace, to authorize this announcement ?
Suppose that ten individuals are confined at Sing-Sing, and
some pious philanthropic individuals try to get their pardon
on easy and just conditions, and succeed with the Governor.
The news flies on the wings of the wind, and one comes to
the prison, saying, " I have good tidings of great joy for
those ten prisoners ; they have but to give their written
promise of allegiance, and undertake to be good citizens
henceforward, and they will be pardoned and released." But
suppose there are three of them who refuse, and turn their
backs, saying, " Away with such a pardon ! We will have
an unconditional one or none." Now, did the messenger
utter a falsehood when he announced that there were good
tidings for the whole ten, because these three refuse to
accept its easy and just conditions? Certainly not. You
see the force of this illustration. " Christ came to seek and
save that which was lost," says my opponent, and that
therefore, every one of the human family must be saved.
But the apostle says afterwards, " If our gospel lie hid, it

REV. MR. SAWYER. 137
is hid to them that are lost ;" — implying, that if the gospel
be preached to one, and he reject it, that one is lost. Men
reject this proffered grace, until their consciences are seared
with a hot iron, and past feeling. Surely, such are lost.
" I lay down my life for the sheep," is another text ; it
is in the 10th chapter of John : read it, and say what it has
to do with an unbelieving and unrepenting sinner. It is
only to the sheep of Christ it is addressed.
Rev. Dr. Sawyer. — My brother and I stand on ground
so very different from each other, and look at our subject
in so different a light, that I do not perceive much prospect
of our seeing eye to eye. He has an eye as sharp as an
eagle's for anything belonging to damnation ; he sees that
in all its length and breadth, and it seems almost as if it
gave him a kind of delight to show how it stands, or what
it means ; but, whenever there is anything said of the grace
of God that is for the world, or of the salvation through
Jesus Christ which is for all men — that does not mean any
thing to him, and has no significance at all. Now, I am
inclined to give all due weight to every threatening you
can find in the Bible ; let it stand there ; let its wholfe force
and application be allowed it. But, over and above all
these, there is something greater and better still — God's
love and goodness — which encircle the world like light, and
which, like light, make plain to us the path whereby we are
to go. Here is a passage : " He that believeth on the Son
hath everlasting life ; and he that believeth not the Son,
shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him."
I believe all that — believe it perfectly and thoroughly — it
is true to-day ; it is true of my brother and myself, in some
degree. He does not so believe in Christ as to live the true
Christian life ; and, just so long as any man is without the
life of Christ, the wrath of God abides on him, and will

138 REV. MR. SAWYER.
continue to abide on him — just as long as he continues in
unbelief. But there is none of us that is not an unbeliever;
we were all so ; he was once ; yet the grace of God was
strong enough to change him from an unbeliever to a be
liever ; and he passed at that very moment from damnation
to salvation — from the wrath of God to the life of Christ.
And so it is with every christian. Every christian, per
haps, remembers the very hour when the great change took
place in his heart, changing it from a heart of stone to a
heart of flesh — changing him from an enemy of God to be
come God's friend, and to look on God as his Father.
But he found the question — " Are there few that be
saved ?" Now, my brother does not believe the interpre
tation of the passage which he has given. I do not mean
that he has uttered a lie — told a falsehood — but he has not
put the matter in the true light. If that relates to the ulti
mate, final issue of the whole government of God, it is
certain that not half of the whole human race will be saved.
" Are there few that be saved ?" " Many, I say unto you,
will seek to enter in, and shall not be able." And, in
another passage, where our Saviour refers to the same
matter, he said, "Broad is the way that leadeth to destruc
tion, and many there be which go in thereat ; because
strait is the gate and narrow is the way which leadeth
unto life, and few there be that find it."
Does he believe in his soul that only a few are to be
finally saved, and that the many are to be damned end
lessly ? I know he does not. This was a Baptist and a
popular doctrine a century ago. I can quote a number of
authorities. But such men as Dr. Beecher, and Professor
Stuart, and Dr. Parker, of this city, have changed the
whole cast of our theology, and now the doctrine is scouted.
These passages are not to be, and cannot be, so interpreted.
What our Saviour said was true at the time. There were

REV. MR. SAWYER. 139
few, very few, then who followed him, and profited by his
salvation, while the many neglected him, and were estranged
from his life. My brother has gone into a very learned
and labored exegesis of Isaiah's words — " Look unto me,
and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth ; for I am God
and there is none else. I have sworn by myself; the word
is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not
return; that unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue
shall swear, surely shall say, In the Lord have I righteous
ness and strength." But my brother says that is not right.
Why not? Our translators (for what purpose God only
knows) put in the word " one." Why not let it stand as it
was, and as I read it ? That only agrees with the original —
" Surely shall say." Who shall say ? Why, of course,
" every tongue shall say," — that is, the preceding subject,
which fairly and clearly belongs to this place. But, my
brother has a grammatical difficulty — the verb is in the
singular number. That does not answer the purpose. The
words are there as God put them ; but the translators, mere
men, understanding the Word of God in some particulars,
understood orthodoxy better, and put in their own words
to make out a doctrine. He finds a passage in Romans,
however, which seems to give him great satisfaction.
Now, I believe in standing before the judgment seat of
Christ, and God ; 1 believe it all. But what has that to do
with endless damnation ? I do not know how it is, but my
brother, like a great many others of his school, seems to
think he can make out a case very easily if he can only
catch a word here and a thought there, while portions of the
greatest importance are passed by altogether. I quoted a
passage from St. Paul, far fuller and more explicit than that
which he quoted. He says, " God has exalted Christ and
given Him a name which is above every name ; that in the
name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven,

140 REV. MR. SAWYER.
and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that
every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the
glory of God the Father." But my brother says some do
this willingly and others by being compelled. I wish the
apostle had told us that, instead of my brother, if that was
his doctrine. I would rather have Paul's word than his.
But Paul did not say any such thing ; and I defy any rea
sonable man to read his words, and say that Paul had any
such idea. Why did Paul not say that there were two ways in
which men were to confess and bow the knee? The apostle
tells us all is to be done in the name of Christ. " Whatso
ever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord
Jesus." Whether we eat or drink it should be in the name
of Jesus. That is in reference to His possessing his king
dom as Son of God and Saviour of the world. But, also,
they were to confess that He was the Lord. Whose Lord ?
The Lord of somebody else ? Does God desire that I
should say Christ is the Lord of my brother ? All men
were to acknowledge Christ to the glory of God the Father.
Is God to get as much glory by damning as by saving
men? My brother believes in vicarious atonement, but it is the
strangest I ever heard of. It means that Christ paid a debt
which was owed by us. It is the same as if I owed a thou
sand dollars, and you paid it for me, and then the creditors
were to come and demand the money from me. What
would you think of such a demand ? I would, very natur
ally, say — " My vicarious friend paid for me." But my
brother's theology is, that though the punishment was suf
fered vicariously, yet men are to be sent to hell ! That will
not do ; you must have a better theology than that.
My brother thinks I am not sound in respect to depravity ;
I guess I am. I believe that men are desperately depraved,
but I do not believe that little children are : and I beg of

REV. MR. SAWYER. 141
my brother, when he goes home, if he has a little child, to
take it in his arms, look at it, and see if there are any fea
tures of the devil in it. I ask mothers, when fondling their
children, to look at them, and say if they believe indeed
that their little children are depraved, accursed of God, and
deserving of hell, as the confession of faith among our Pres
byterian friends, and our Baptist friends too, recognizes. I
wish they would put this point of faith to such a practical
test. My brother believes that hundreds in this audience
are very much exercised in their wish to become Universal
ists. I think so too. There are more than two thousand
persons here who are wanting to be Universalists ; and the
peculiarity is that, the better the mind and heart the greater
the anxiety to be a Universalist; it is so with my brother
himself. But he holds out the idea that, if those persons
could get universalism into their heads, they would be
straightway privileged to rush into sin. I would say, with
all kindness to my brother, that there are more orthodox
ministers than Universalists in the States prisons to-day. It
is not Universalists that are running on in sin and iniquity.
I say it in kindness, but with great plainness. The doctrine
of endless punishment has much more to be charged with in
that regard. I wish he would go over the ground again.
My brother made a strong remark, that our Saviour
never uttered a prayer for the whole world. Can He be
lieve that Christ laid down His life for the whole world, and
yet never breathed a prayer for them ? He lived so earn
estly for all the world, He tasted death for all the world ;
and yet, did He never utter a prayer for the whole world ?
Does my brother forget the prayer offered on the cross
when He was surrounded by His enemies who had nailed
Him there, and who wagged their heads at Him in mockery ?
Did He not even then pray, saying : " Father, forgive them,
for they know, not what they do ?" If He prayed for them,

142 REV. MR. WESCOTT.
why not for others ? And how are we taught- to pray for
all? "I exhort, therefore," says the apostle, " that, first of
all, prayers, intercessions, supplications, and giving of
thanks be made for all men — for this is good and acceptable
in the sight of God our Saviour, who will have all men to
be saved and to come unto the knowledge of the truth, for
there is one God and one mediator between God and man,
the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself a ransom for all, to
be testified in due time."
Mr. Wescott. — My opponent says I have an eye as sharp
as an eagle for everything that relates to damnation ; and
that I almost seem to take pleasure in the denunciation of
it. I am very sorry, if there has been anything in my man
ner or voice, anything in my words, or in the uttering of
them, indicating that I take pleasure in repeating these
fearful truths. Let me say, emphatically, that I take no
pleasure even in quoting these denunciations which I find in
the Scriptures of Divine Truth against the finally impeni
tent ; but I wish to know how I can exhibit my friendship
and love for you in any better way than, if He whose I am
and whom I serve, and who, if I am what I profess to be,
has put me into the ministry — if He, I say, has taught me
that there is danger for those who disbelieve Christ, if it be
true, that " he that believeth not shall be damned" — how
can I show my love and friendship for you in any better
way than making clear to you those important, those awful
truths? Notwithstanding the remarks of my brother the
other night to the contrary, I have no more doubt than 1
have that I am standing here, that the doctrine I maintain is
taught by God's word. How, then, can I show my friend
ship better than by warning you against the evil of neglect
ing the great salvation ? It seems to me I should act the
part of an enemy, not a friend, if I were to cry peace and
safety when certain destruction cometh.

REV. MR. WESCOTT. 143
The wrath of God, my brother says, will abide on us just
as long as we disbelieve. Yes ; but there are so many
passages in the scripture that represent the giving up of the
hope of the wicked when he dies, that I am constrained to
believe that in a future world he can never change his char
acter and condition. Again, if in the midst ofthe means of
grace ; if, when the morning and evening zephyrs waft
mercy's gentle call from Calvary's trembling cross ; if,
when urged by all the religious privileges of the pious
domestic and social circle, with the constraining power of
public worship ; if, with the influence of the Holy Spirit,
the sinner cannot be prevailed upon to repent and believe in
Christ — what hope is there that the sinner would be inclined
(even if he could) to repent, when shut up in the prison of
hell, where none of these means of grace exist ?
Read, and seriously reflect upon the following passages
of scripture which represent the wicked as giving up all
hope at the hour of death, and you will be constrained to
believe that beyond death there is no hope for the ungodly :
"The hypocrite's hope shall perish."
" His hope shall be cut off and his expectation shall be
like the spider's web."
" What is the hope of the hypocrite when God taketh
away his soul ?"
" The expectation of the wicked shall perish."
" When a wicked man dieth his expectation shall perish."
"The candle ofthe wicked shall be put out."
"The eyes of the wicked shall fail, and their hope shall
be as the giving up ofthe ghost."
"The wicked is driven away in his wickedness, but the
righteous hath hope in his death."
These texts of Scripture, clashing with Universalism, con
stitute my fourth reason why I cannot be a Universalist.
My brother gives us some remarks in regard to Isaiah,

144 REV. MR. WESCOTT.
45 : 24, but, as he does not attempt to controvert the criti
cism I offered, it remains in all its force. Bear in mind,
my main position was not that the verb was in the third
person singular, and better agreed with a noun in the sin
gular number ; but my more prominent reason was the use
made by the apostle of this passage. He quoted it as
applicable to the judgment-seat of Christ, where not only
life everlasting but also eternal punishment was to be dis
pensed. My other main reason is, that the text itself em
braces not only those who hear his voice and submit to
him, but his enemies, who are to be "ashamed," and "con
founded." He says I made out a case very easily in regard
to the continued punishment of the impenitent, by my ex
planation given of this verse. I admit it, because God
prepared it for me ; that is what makes it so easy for me.
I concede to my brother superior talents and a profound
education. God has made it out, therefore ; it is easy for
me. I have only to take reason and the Scriptures — I have
only to read that sacred book, and on almost every page I
find passages which teach me this fearful truth.
He asks us, when we go home — he asked me, when I go
home, to take up my little child, if I have one, look in its
face, and say if I can see any picture or likeness of the
devil there. This he says on the subject of depravity. My
brother probably has not looked at the meaning of the
word depravity : it means, simply, destitution. Destitution
of what ?
[The lights in the room here went out suddenly, which
circumstance caused Mr. Wescott to conclude before his
time was out. He merely could add the following few-
words : — ]
By depravity — human depravity — and even if I were to
use the term total depravity, which I have not, and probably
shall not — we simply mean that the heart is, by nature,

REV. MR. WESCOTT. 145
destitute of that love of holiness which is God's due, and
which was lost by the fall of Adam. If, therefore, I look
in the face of my child, and watch it as it grows, — as its
mental and moral faculties are developed — I will find in it
no principles leading to the love of holiness, the love of
God, the love of the service of God. These must be im
planted by grace — Divine grace alone — that, in brief, is
what I mean by depravity and natural sinfulness.

SIXTH EVENING.
Prayer was offered by Rev. Mr. Goodrich.
Rev. Dr. Sawyer. — I am afraid my learned friend is not
quite orthodox in the important doctrine of depravity. He
defines that term to mean " want of goodness." He gives
it no positive character ; but you know that the confessions
of faith lay it down as implying an averseness to all that is
good, and an inclination to all that is evil. I have here
what I suppose to be the confession of faith in Baptist
churches, and the doctrine is laid down in broader terms
than he has presented. They say that man was created in
a state of holiness, under the law of his Maker ; but by
voluntary transgression fell from that holy and happy state;
in consequence of which, all mankind are now sinners, not
by constraint but choice, being by nature utterly void of
that holiness required by the law of God, and wholly given
to the gratifications of the world, and of Satan, and of their
own sinful passions, and therefore under just condemnation
to eternal ruin, without defence or excuse." That is the
doctrine of depravity. My brother hesitates a little about
calling it total depravity. I agree to that, but it is not
orthodox. Let us have total depravity, and in the old-
fashioned way, strong and clear, so as to be intelligible. I
doubt whether that is the doctrine of the Bible. I remem
ber when our Saviour was on earth, and his disciples would
repel those who brought little children to him, he forbid

REV. MR. SAWYER. 147
them thus — "Suffer little children to come unto me, and
forbid them not, for of such is the kingdom of heaven." He
could have said they were totally depraved, if he thought
so — hut if He thought so, how could He say — " Of such is
the kingdom of heaven." Then He says to His disciples,
"Unless you be converted, and become as little children,
you cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven." I think the
Bible is not very clear on the doctrine of total depravity.
My brother quoted several passages to show why he
could not be a Universalist, such as " The expectation ofthe
wicked shall perish," " The hope of the hypocrite shall
perish," " The wicked is driven away in his wickedness, but
the righteous hath hope in his death." If he had only
told you what kind of expectation and hope the wicked and
the hypocrites have, I think you would see that there was
no great calamity in the same perishing. The hypocrite
hopes to get along in hypocrisy, his hope is one opposed to
God, and all His moral government, therefore it should not,
and will not endure, but perish. The wicked hope to suc
ceed in their wickedness, though God's holy and eternal will
is against it. My brother tells us that Judas had a very
severe sentence pronounced against him : " good were it for
that man if he had never been born." My brother said
"better," but our Saviour said "good." But this is an
expression which the learned look on as having been a pro
verbial one among the Jews, and applied in a great many
instances where there was no reference whatever to the
future. There is no reason to suppose that our Saviour had
any whatever in this instance. He spoke of the condition
of Judas, into which he threw himself by a great transgres
sion ; his terrible misery, the gnawing of his conscience, and
all those consequences which we see recorded in the scrip
ture as following him till the very moment of his death.
Dr. Adam Clarke, who is a very orthodox authority, has

148 REV. MR. SAWYER.
gone over this subject with great learning and candor, and
he came to the conclusion that, in the scriptures there was
no evidence of Judas' ultimate damnation ; and this was a
second examination, because, in one passage he speaks of it
as a certainty, but afterwards comes to the conclusion I have
mentioned, having gone over the matter more largely.
My learned opponent still insists, with great pertinacity,
that if sin and misery are consistent with the moral govern
ment of God here, they must be so in the future : if allowed
to-day, he thinks they must be allowed to-morrow, and
through all eternity. Now, I am aware how important this
position is to my brother, because, if he gives it up, he is
gone entirely. I do not wonder that he clings to it ; yet I
do wonder that he does not see the intrinsic absurdity of
the position. Why, are we persuaded that the suffering
which is consistent with the fleeting condition of to-day,
must be consistent with love and goodness throughout all
eternity 1 It is consistent with love and goodness that we
should be born infants, without knowledge and without
virtue ; but would it be consistent that we should remain
so ? Would it be consistent that we should remain through
out all eternity without any increase of knowledge, or of
power, or of goodness ? It is consistent with the attributes
of God that good men should suffer much here, in this
world, from sickness, and the opposition of their fellow-
men, and the oppression of the wicked, and in various
ways. Take the instance of Job, and others recorded in
the scriptures. Is it consistent with the goodness of God
that such hopelessness and misery should attach to the
wicked throughout eternity ? So it must be if my brother's
argument be correct. It was consistent with the infinite
wisdom and goodness of God that our Saviour should suffer
on the cross, the object of mockery to his enemies ; and
that he should die a bitter and agonizing death — a death of

REV. MR. SAWYER. 149
shame and misery. Would it be consistent with God's
attributes that Jesus should be crucified eternally ? But so
it must be if ray brother's argument be worth a straw.
But we know it is not worth anything. There is an ab
surdity lurking under it which cannot, by any ingenuity,
be escaped from. Everybody must say that, in the de
velopment of a moral system like ours, evils and miseries
may spring up and exist for a time ; but it must be clearly
seen that, ultimately, they shall be overcome, as it would
be inconsistent with the attributes of Deity that they should
be endless. We often see little children, who have never
sinned, and who are only wanting in the presence of virtue
and goodness, (as my brother says) suffer for weeks and
months, so that when their parents see them dying at last,
they are almost or entirely ready to address thanks to God
that the little things are removed from their sufferings.
But, if my brother were to chance along, he would say,
" Do not congratulate yourselves too much — the child is
indeed removed from a world of suffering ; but, as it has
been consistent with the goodness of God that it should
suffer here for a while, it is quite consistent that it should
suffer throughout eternity in the same manner."
My brother still maintains that, in the future world, we
can never change our character or our condition. We can
do it here, he thinks, but never in the future world. I wish
he would put two or three things together. He will see in
a moment that he gives up the doctrine of moral freedom,
the very instant he takes that position. Moral freedom
exists here, to be sure, for a little while. It is a sort of
snare or trap cunningly placed by God to secure the dam
nation of His creatures. He gives them moral freedom
long enough to expose them to temptation, to bring them
to condemnation and to hell, and then suddenly takes it
away. Surely, if it be consistent with the Divine attributes

150 REV. MR. SAWYER.
that we should be moral beings here, with freedom to return
to God, why not the same throughout eternity ? How is
the salvation of those dying in infancy secured, on my
brother's theory ? He says that, in the future world, there
is no change of character or condition. Children are born
in sin, conceived in iniquity, very depraved, (my brother
hardly dares to say totally depraved) and yet he believes
that all are to be saved who happen to die in infancy. How
is this to be brought about ? 'Tis hard to tell, seeing that
there is no change after this world, and we know they are
not christians in this : they have neither knowledge, faith,
virtue, nor goodness ; they have nothing to recommend
them to God ; still my brother believes they are all to be
saved ! I wish he would bring these things together and
see how his system will shape itself — into what form it will
throw itself. According to this theory of no change after
death, what disposition is to be made of idiots — insane per
sons — of those who have lived and died in darkness like the
heathen — aye, and even of millions and millions around him
to-day — even of himself? Does he expect to be perfectly
pure and holy before leaving this world ? We know that
nothing unholy can enter into heaven — that nothing incon
sistent with the attributes of God can take place there — and
yet he believes that those who cannot improve beyond this
life, and who, he will hardly say, can become quite holy
here, will enter into heaven ! I do not believe a word
of it.
In the early part of our debate, my brother's complaint
was that I had no scripture to give him, and he rather con
gratulated himself on my deficiency in that regard. Last
evening he began to think I gave him too much of it ; it
came in a "perfect avalanche." We see that it almost
buried him up. He congratulated himself, however, that a
great part of it had no reference to the matter in hand, no

REV. MR. SAWYER. 151
more than it had to the Russian war or the Nebraska bill. I
am not quite sure of that ; and I do not think that his confi
dence in it, either, is very clear or strong. I find myself
under an avalanche to-night. Now, there are so many
passages of scripture that I want to quote, and my time is
so limited, that I shall be able to give only a very few of
all that I desire. There is a strong passage that occurs in
the 5th chapter of Paul's Epistle to the Romans, to which
I wish to invite your attention. The apostle was comparing
Adam and Christ. I shall not go into any examination of
the grounds of the comparison ; but it is obvious, from the
very letter, that he represents Adam not only as the head,
in a manner, of the human race, but also as the source of
its sinfulness ; and, so, that he represents Christ as spiritu
ally the head of the race, and spiritually the source of
righteousness and holiness to the whole race. " For if by
one man's offence death reigned by one ; much more they
which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteous
ness shall reign in life by one, (Jesus Christ.) Therefore
as, by the offence of one, judgment came upon all men to
condemnation ; even so by the righteousness of one the
free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For
as, by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so,
by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."
I need not stop to criticise the word " many," in Greek, oi
tfoXXoi, signifying " the many," that is, (as many Commen
tators have it,) the whole human family. As all came to
be sinners through their connexion with Adam, so all shall
become righteous through their connexion with Jesus Christ.
Such is the argument ofthe apostles, and it is very decisive.
I do not care how the relation may be brought about in
either case, the result is still the same ; whoever was made
a sinner through the influence of Adam is brought out of
his sin, into life, by the influence of Jesus Christ. The

152 REV. MR. SAWYER.
apostle concludes by telling us, " Moreover, the law entered
that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded,
grace did much more abound ; that, as sin hath reigned
unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness
unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord."
And now I ask your attention to another passage hi
Romans, 11th chapter, from the 25th to the 36th verses.
The apostle was here presenting the case of the Jews and of
the Gentiles, as the two great opposing parties in the world.
The Jews were the ancient favored people of God, now
rejected ; while the Gentiles, formerly rejected, were now
brought in. He lays down the doctrine that the Jews had
been cast off — but, says he, " Have they stumbled that they
should fall ?" — that is, irrecoverably, so as to be utterly
and endlessly lost ? " God forbid !" — he resumes, — " but
rather through their fall salvation is come with the Gentiles,
for to provoke them to jealousy. Now, if the fall of them
be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them
the riches of the Gentiles, how much more their full
ness ? For I speak to you, Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the
apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office : If by any
means I may provoke to emulation them which are my
flesh, and might save some of them. For if the casting
away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall
the receiving of them be, but life from the dead ?" And
then, he says — " I would not, brother, that ye should be
ignorant of this mystery," — (a mystery that a great many
men since have been as ignorant of as were his brethren,) —
" lest ye should be wise in your own conceits ; that blind
ness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness ofthe
Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved, as
it is written. There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer,
and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob : for this is my
covenant with them, when I shall take away their sins.

REV. MR. SAWYER. 153
As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes ;
but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers'
sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repent
ance ;" — that is, whatever God prepared from eternity, He
never annuls ; — " For as ye in times past have not believed
God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief ;
Even so have those also now not believed, that through
your mercy they may also obtain mercy. For God hath
concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy
upon all. O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom
and knowledge of God ! how unsearchable are his judg
ments, and his ways past finding out ! For who hath
known the mind of the Lord ? or who hath been his coun
sellor ! Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be
recompensed unto him again ? For of him, and through
him, and to him, are all things : to whom be glory for ever."
Thus and then solves the apostle that great mystery which
had hung over His dealings with the Jews and the GentileSj
In solving that, he also has solved the question of the des.
tiny of the human family.
Let us look again at Ephesians. In the 1st chap., 8th ver.,
the apostle, speaking of Divine grace, says, " Wherein God
hath abounded towards us in all wisdom and prudence ;
having made known unto us the mystery of his will, accord
ing to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself;
that in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might
gather together in one" — (that is, Christ,) — " all things in
Christ, both which are in heaven and which are in earth ;
even in him." Here the apostle tells us it was the good
pleasure of God that it accorded with the Divine purpose,
that all things should be gathered together in Christ ; and,
as if there might be some doubt as to what the meaning
might be, he adds, that the all things which are in heaven,
and the all things which are on the earth, shall be gathered
together in Him.
& 7*

154 REV. MR. SAWYER.
Again ; let us look at Colossians 1 : 19, 20, — " For it
pleased the Father that in him should all fullness dwell,
and, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by
him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say,
whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven." The
apostle had just been declaring that all things had been made
by and for Christ ; and now he tells us that all are to be
reconciled to God through Him. Here is another passage
to the same purport : in 2nd Corinthians we read, " All
things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by
Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of recon
ciliation ; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the
world unto himself."
Here we have the same terms, the same phraseology, the
same world, all to be reconciled by Christ. Look at First
Timothy, 4 : 10, — " For therefore we both labor and suffer
reproach because we trust in the living God, who is the
Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe." God
is the Saviour of all men ; but those that believe have
entered into a special salvation — are in the present enjoy
ment of salvation. Mark the language of the apostle, —
" We both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in
the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of
those that believe." I ask my brother if he has labored and
suffered reproach for trusting in the living God, who is the
Saviour of all men. I have ; — I have suffered a good deal
of reproach on account of my trust in the living God, the
Saviour of all men. Look again at Titus : " For the grace
of God that bringeth salvation to all men, hath appeared ;
teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we
should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present
world." I transpose the language here a little of our trans
lators ; they have marked the passage in the margin. The
reading in the common version is, " For the grace of God

REV. MR. SAWYER. 155
that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men." But
that was not quite- true when the apostle spoke, nor is it
now, while it was quite true that " the grace of God which
bringeth salvation to all men had appeared." I insist on
this, for the apostle recognizes this universality of the grace
of God as the source of pure morality.
I omitted a passage last night, to which I now invite
attention. In his last public prayer, in which, contrary to
my brother's declaration, Christ prayed for the whole world,
he said : " Father, glorify thy name :" (it is found in John)
" Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both
glorified it and will glorify it again." The people who
stood by differed, it seems, with respect to the import of
this voice ; for some " said that it thundered ; others said an
angel spake to him." But he said : " This voice came not
because of me, but for your sakes. Now is the judgment
of this world ; now shall the prince of this world be cast
out. And I, if 1 be lifted up from the earth, will draw
all men unto me." Mark— that was the moment ; that may
be regarded as the crisis in the world's history. "Now is
the judgment of this world," He says ; " now shall the
prince of this world be cast out" — now commences the
great struggle between truth and error, between Christ and
the devil ; and he is to be cast out, destroyed ; " and I — if
I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me."
That there might be no mistake as to the meaning of His
being lifted up from the earth, the evangelist adds — " This
he said, signifying what death he should die ;" if on the
cross, then would He draw all men unto Him. I ask, with
earnestness, what does this language mean, what can this
language mean, if not precisely what is implied in our
question — " Do the Holy Scriptures teach the final salvation
of all men ?" Christ tells us that, if He were lifted up from
the earth (as we know He was) He would " draw all men

156 REV. MR. WESCOTT.
unto Him." I maintain that this signifies precisely what
we mean by salvation. He would draw them to see His
glory and recognize His authority, to feel His power, to
submit to His government, to taste His grace, to live in
His joy, to share in His beatitude, to glorify God in His
name — for, " If I be lifted up from the earth, I will draw all
men unto me."
Rev. Mr. Wescott. — I suppose my opponent thought he
had made an end of me by this time ; that I would come
out and say he was right and I wrong ; and invite my
friends to embrace his views. Well, before I do that, I
will examine them a little. It is true, we have been over
whelmed with an avalanche of texts ; but I have crawled out
pretty well, and cleared my way, and I am here to-night
just where I was last night. But, before entering on the
matter, I will ask you to recollect that, last night, after I
had spoken for about seven minutes, the lights in the house
went out, and, as the reporters wished to take notes, I thought
it best to desist. I was then speaking on native depravit}'.
There is one other remark I had to make ; it is in reference
to one made by my brother, to which I wished to allude,
one which I regretted, and which perhaps he too regrets by
this time. It was this — •" That there are more orthodox
ministers in the States' prisons than Universalists." I sup
pose he meant Universalist ministers.
[Dr. Sawyer said he did not, but Universalists, whether
lay or clerical.]
Then I dissent. I can hardly find a man in the State's
prison who is not, or was not, a Universalist ; and such men
have told me that it was disbelief of God's threatenings that
first placed them in the road thither.
I will, in the first place, make a few remarks in regard to
some things advanced this evening ; and then I will take up

REV. MR. WESCOTT. 157
the subject of depravity, which my brother desires I should.
He asks us what kind of a life the wicked man has. I
will answer ; he has a hope that he will escape the threat
ened wrath of God ; and the passages I quoted last night
declare that when he dies this hope is given up. That is,
the hope of the wicked man — of every wicked man that
hears me to-night; and although the wrath of God is plainly
threatened against him for his wickedness, he hopes — some
how or other — to escape it. Such is the hope of the wicked
man — such is the hope of the Universalist, that, somehow
or other, he will escape the threatened wrath of God. My
brother says that the remark of our Lord in regard to Judas
was simply a proverbial remark — " It were good for him
that he had not been born.'' He quotes Dr. Adam Clarke ;
I wish he had quoted one of the inspired writers, because
that would settle the question with me. It is no kind of
use whatever for my opponent to quote celebrated divines ;
we have no fathers in Christ ; we have no books of authority
but the scriptures of Divine Truth. When Jesus Christ
said — " it is better — or good — for that man that he never
had been born," He meant something more than the anguish
of a few hours, experienced by a man who was to be
wafted on angels' wings to glory, to get there even before
Jesus Christ did ; He certainly meant something more than
that. I know what Dr. Clarke says on the subject ; but it
is one of his weak points ; he is a great man in many re
spects ; but, he meant to get Judas to heaven somehow or
other, and he thought he had accomplished the task. The
subject of the attributes of God is introduced again, but in a
manner to evade the argument I intended to answer last
evening. It was this — that the attributes of God, goodness
wisdom, and power, are inconsistent with the continued
misery of the human family. That was the first argument
the gentleman adduced. I showed then, as twice since, in

158 REV. MR. WESCOTT.
answer to his five-times repeated argument, that God was
perfect in all his attributes ; that sin and misery do now
exist ; and that, therefore, under the government of God
sin and misery are not inconsistent with the attributes of
Jehovah. That is the argument, and no man can evade it ;
it holds like a vice upon the consciences of those that hear
me ; they feel its force. My brother says (and that is the
only thing I will notice in regard to depravity) that /stated
we were conceived in sin and brought up in iniquity. He
says — "he says," but, it was God who said it; Jehovah
said it ; I simply repeated His words. He asks us, then,
how we are to have infants saved, if we are all born with
sinful moral natures. To him it may, perhaps, be a
mystery ; to me the Bible is perfectly clear upon the sub
ject. By Adam's transgression moral turpitude has entered
and passed upon the entire human family, so that all that
are born into the world are born with sinful elements in their
moral natures. It would be impossible for them to be saved
by the law. But the atonement of Jesus Christ has entirely
removed the effect of Adam's transgression beyond the
grave. I will give you one text ; it is the one he quoted,
but I will give it in the meaning of the apostle — " As by the
offence of one, judgment came upon all men unto condemna
tion ; even so, by the righteousness of one the free gift came
upon all men unto the justification of life. The meaning is
— just so far as Adam's transgression has consigned all the
human family to God's wrath, just so far has Jesus Christ
unconditionally delivered them from it. And this meets
the case of those dying in infancy, though condemned to
present and future wrath by Adam's transgression, yet, so
far as a future state is concerned, they are saved by the
atonement of Christ if they die before they know good and
evil. But not so with man coming to years of understand
ing ; he having sinned for himself must believe for himself,

REV. MR. WESCOTT. 159
repent for himself, or be damned for himself. To us, who
take the Bible instead of old musty books of theology, which
have in many instances darkened and rendered obscure the
doctrines of the scripture — all these doctrines are as plain
as the noonday's sun.
My brother's other texts of scripture will be answered in
due time. He tells us, however, — (allow me to introduce
one or two now,) — that Christ is the Saviour of all men,
especially those who believe. Peter tells us, that the long-
suffering of God is salvation ; that is — God bears with you,
my fellow-traveller to eternity, for so many years without
your repenting and believing, this is called salvation — that is,
the common salvation. But the special salvation is that
which imparts to you a living faith, and the Spirit of Jesus
Christ. It is not, as he tells you, that the common salva
tion — that is, the salvation of all men — is secure out yonder.
No, no ! Common salvation is the forbearance of God from
month to month, as Peter has decided ; but the special
salvation is that which brings individuals into fellowship
with God, through Jesus Christ. All his texts, which seem
to draw a contrast between the Jewish nation and the
world, are easily understood. The Jews, in ancient times,
believed themselves to be the only favored people of God ;
and it is for this the apostle tells them that Christ came,
not alone for them but for the whole world, the Gentiles as
well as the Jews being embraced. But does this render it
positive that every individual of the whole world shall be
made the recipient of gospel grace ? By no means. Even
the phrase " all men" does not always mean every indi
vidual. It is said in the scripture, that when certain men
were converted they brought forth their books of enchant
ment and " burnt them before all men." But who were
really present at the burning ? Not one thousandth part
of the human family — nor does the expression mean that

160 REV. MR. WESCOTT.
there were ; it simply means that the thing was done in an
open, public manner. So the meaning here is, that salva
tion is virtually proffered to all — that is, to the Gentile as
well as to the Jew.
As to that figure, in Romans, of the cutting off of the
Jews, and the grafting in of the Gentiles, it has no different
bearing. There had been an exclusion in favor of the Jews ;
that was discontinued, or cut off; and,' under the gospel
dispensation, the offer was made to all. The first offer of
mercy was for the Jews alone ; the second was for the whole
world — in contradistinction to that offered to the Jews.
Then we have this text, upon which much stress is laid :
" If I be lifted up from the earth, I will draw all men unto
me." But, how does He draw all men ? By the gracious
invitations of the gospel. But what was, and is, more com
mon than that those invitations, given by Christ, by the
apostles, by the ministry at the present day — were and are,
instead of being accepted — rejected, spurned at — and the
career of sin still persevered in ? Nothing is, or was more
common than this. These texts, however, shall be more
fully examined at a future time.
Let me return, and take up the more prominent point in
my opponent's argument, namely, depravity. When I made
my remark on total depravity, I did not imply that I did
or did not believe in total depravity ; I did not wish to
waste your time, nor mine, in questions that were useless
for the purpose. I gave the meaning — entire destitution of
love for God, and love of holiness in the human heart, — (I
did not say of goodness.) It is not that our physical powers
are destroyed ; it is not that our intellectual faculties are
spoiled ; no, no ! but that, in the heart, in the affections, in
that power of the soul that loves, it is that the heart is
destitute of the great principle of love, love to God, love
to holiness, and even love to man as the creature of God.

REV. MR. WESCOTT. 161
This is the depravity of which I spoke ; I said this was
natural, this was a part of our nature ; 1 said it was a part
of our moral constitution ; and I am not yet prepared to
yield that point. My brother thinks it would have been
well for me to have observed the difference between cha
racter and constitution. Constitution may be defined to be
the groundwork and ruling principle of any man, as the
constitution of the United States is the groundwork and
controlling principle of all our laws. So the moral consti
tution of man is the groundwork and governing principle
of his moral faculties ; and as there is an entire want of
love to God in every unregenerated heart, we may, with
propriety, say that man's moral constitution is depraved.
It was on the subject of man's depravity that my opponent
said that " man now has the same moral constitution that
was originally given to the progenitor of our race." If he
may use the term " constitution" in this sense, why may I
not ? Let the word of God speak to this matter : I ask
you to bear in mind the texts I have quoted already, be
cause I will not repeat them again. In Ecclesiastes 7 : 29,
we read, " Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made
man upright, but they have sought out many inventions."
Job 15 : 14, " What is man that he should be clean, and
he that is born of a woman, that he should be righteous ?"
Ephesians 2:3," And were by nature children of wrath,
even as others." Romans 8:7, " The carnal mind is
enmity against God, for it is not subject to the law of God,
neither indeed can be." 1st Cor. 2 : 14, " The natural man
receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God, for they are
foolishness unto him : neither can he know them, because
they are spiritually discerned." Psalms 14: 1, "They are
corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none
that doeth good." Romans 3 : 10, " There is none
righteous ; no, not one." Same, 12 v., " They are all gone

162 REV. MR. WESCOTT.
out of the way, they are together become unprofitable ;
there is none that doeth good ; no, not one." Same, 13 v.,
" Their throat is an open sepulchre ; with their tongues they
have used deceit ; the poison of asps is under their lips."
Same, 16 v., " Destruction and misery are in their ways."
Same, 18 v., " There is no fear of God before their eyes."
When the natural state of man is thus described, what
man will stand before us and say that the natural state of
man is unchanged, — that his moral constitution is the same
as it was when it came from the hand of his Maker to his
progenitor, Adam ? The Scriptures of Divine Truth are
opposed to the assertion !
The inquiry now arises — How shall man be just with
God ? If this be our condition, thus wicked by nature, and
wicked by practice, how shall man be just with God ? He
says — Break off from your sins ; then all is changed. Yes,
we ought to break off from sin ; but what is he to do with
his past sins ? Does breaking off to-day atone for the past?
Suppose a man has been running an account at the store;
when he examines it he finds it much larger than he ex
pected. He determines to run on credit no longer ; and so
says to the merchant, " I intend to trade with you as I have
done, but I shall pay for each article as I get it." Would
this pay the old debt of a hundred dollars ? A few months
after, the merchant asks him for the amount, and, with sur
prise, the debtor says, " Why, sir, I broke off running the
account with you three months ago, and since then have
paid for all I got ; does not that make us even ?" What
would you think of that man ? So will your breaking off
from sin now atone for past offences ? These are still
recorded against you in the books of God's justice, and
must be atoned for, and blotted out, or you must be lost.
It was this view of the subject that caused the inspired
writer to ask, " How can man be just with God ?"

REV. MR. WESCOTT. 163
My opponent says that we cannot escape the just punish
ment for our sins, whether we repent here or in hell, — that
all that is due to our sins must be inflicted upon us, whether
we believe in Christ or not ; that Christ saves no one from
any deserved punishment. But what says the Bible? "By
him" (that is, Christ,) "all that believe are justified from
all things from which ye could not be justified by the law
of Moses." Again -. Romans 3 : 24, — " Being justified freely
by his grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus."
And again, Romans 5 : 9, — "Much more, then, being justi
fied by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through
him." And Zechariah 9 : 11, — " By the blood of the cove
nant, I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit."
But, how did Christ accomplish this ? I answer — By
offering himself as a sacrifice to the offended majesty of the
law which we had broken, — by answering its claims and
suffering its penalties. It is by this, and this alone, that we
are to be received by him. Let me give a few texts of
Scripture to prove this. I take the ground that Jesus Christ
took the place of the sinner, not in a commercial sense —
not as paying a debt — but the atonement is a moral trans
action, by which satisfaction is made to the offended majesty
of the Divine law, so that God can be just and yet the
justifier of him that believeth in Jesus. In this sense
Christ was our substitute. And this, the following passages
of Scripture affirm : Isaiah 53 : 5, 6, — " He was wounded
for our transgressions ; he was bruised for our iniquities ;
the chastisement of our peace was upon him ; and with his
stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray ;
we have turned every one to his own way ; and the Lord
hath laid on him the iniquity of us all." Again, Daniel
9 : 26,—" Messiah shall be cut off, but not for himself."
Acts 20 : 28,—" Feed the church of God, which he hath
purchased with his own blood." First Peter, 2 : 24, —

164 REV. MR. WESCOTT.
"Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the
tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteous
ness, by whose stripes ye were healed." Revelations,
7 : 14, — "These are they which came out of great tribu
lation, and have washed their robes, and made them white
in the blood of the Lamb." Not they that have suffered in
hell till made clean, and then come up, trusting in the puri
fying effect of hell fire, but they who trusted in the blood
of the Lamb. And so it was declared by the angel — •
" These are they who have washed their robes, and made
them white in the blood of the Lamb." No, no ; sinners
by nature and by practice ! No man has of himself power
to change his own heart on earth nor in hell — neither here
nor there. The Holy Spirit alone creates us heirs of grace
in Christ Jesus ; and if the Holy Spirit leaves us we might
as well attempt to create another sun and hang it up in the
heavens, as to hope to gain life everlasting through any
endeavor of our own. But the Holy Spirit, the great
Physician, is ready to heal us of every malady. Trust
not, oh dying sons of men ! the purging of your sins to
your own sufferings or works — but to Christ, and while the
way to Christ is open, flee to him as your only refuge !
By him alone can you find salvation.
As additional proof of the vicarious suffering of Christ,
allow me to say — Jesus Christ either died for himself, a
mere ordinary death, or, he died in the place of, and for,
others, and suffered for others. If he died for himself, he
ought to have died the most happy and triumphant death
of any that ever gave up this mortal being. What being,
at the point of death, ever had such prospects before him?
What injury had he ever done to any man ? What good
could he do which he had not accomplished ? He knew that
he had done his father's will — that his soul would go to par
adise as soon as he died — that his body would rise from the

REV. MR. SAWYER. 165
dead in three days. If, I repeat, Jesus Christ died only for
himself, he ought to have died the most happy and trium
phant death of any being who ever departed from this life.
But, what is the truth ? Never was there a death so miser
able ; never was there a death of such agony ; of such in
describable suffering, as the death of Jesus Christ. Look at
him in the Garden of Gethsemane : a man thirty-three years
of age, full of vigor and strength — and yet such was the
agony he endured, that the blood issued from the pores of
his skin, and trickled down on the ground ! You know that,
save in exceedingly feeble health, none have had perspira
tion even tinged the color of blood — but no one in the prime
and vigor of life has ever this tinge of blood. But Christ
sweated great drops of blood ! Then look at him on the
tree of the cross, exclaiming in overwhelming agony of
soul — " My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me ?"
Why did Christ thus suffer? Why was he so miserable?
You who deny vicarious suffering, answer the question ! Do
you ask me why he thus suffered ? I answer — his soul
groaned under the heavy weight of man's sin. He was pay
ing the price which was to satisfy thej law, so that the Divine
Lawgiver might pardon the repentant, returning sinner, and
receive him into glory. The world lay upon him our ini
quity ; it was impossible that they could save themselves ;
they might break off from sin — but how could they dis
charge the vast arrear ? God provided a way : he that be
lieves in it is safe. Belief in Jesus Christ saves the believer,
and the gospel dispensation effects that redemption which
never could be procured by the Law of Moses.
Rev. Dr. Sawyer. — The remark which I made last night,
and which my brother regrets, and thinks that I, perhaps,
by this time, also regret — was called'forlhby what I thought
an unkind insinuation, repeated, I believe, every evening

166 REV. MR. SAWYER.
during our discussion, to the effect that men wanted to be
Universalists, that they might indulge freely in their sins,
throw off all moral responsibility, and be entirely relieved
at once from all apprehension and all conscientiousness. It
seemed to me that such a remark was not called for, and
that it was unkind, although I know that that is the estima
tion in which Universalism is held by the reputed orthodox
world. I said what I did say for the purpose of reminding
my friend that facts are worth a great deal more in this mat
ter than sheer surmises or fictions. Our state prisons have
been visited frequently, and their inmates examined as to
their religious belief; and what I said last night I said with
great caution, and on the authority of those repeated exam
inations. I meant — (and I observed that the reporters did
not give it rightly in the morning papers) — I did not mean
that there were more Orthodox ministers in state prisons
than Universalist ministers — but that there were more
Orthodox ministers in those prisons than Universalists of
any class whatever. I meant precisely what I said. I know
whereof I speak. There were at one time more than twenty
Orthodox ministers in the state prisons of the state of New
York, and you could not at that moment, find there three
who ever professed to be Universalists — I mean laymen,
even ; men who believed at all in the doctrine. My brother
says that wicked men always are Universalists ; or, that the
great mass of men in the state prisons are Universalists ;
he knows that it is so, having talked with them. I know that
it is not so. How is it on Blackwell's Island to-day ? Seven-
tenths of those there are Catholics, brought up in the strait-
est sect of the doctrine of endless torments. I do not be
lieve, that on that whole island, there can be found a single
individual — except it be the keeper of the prison — who pro
fesses to be a Universalist, or ever did so. My brother
thinks that wicked men hope, somehow or other, to escape

REV. MR. SAWYER. 167
the wrath of God. That is a pretty common case, also,
with good men. They, too, hope, somehow or other, to es
cape the wrath of God. Men who profess that they deserve
to go to hell forever, hope, somehow or other, to escape the
wrath of God. You find them in Orthodox churches — these
men who hope somehow or other to escape the wrath of
God, though they know, and profess, that they deserve dam
nation. It is one of the peculiar doctrines of Universalism
— (a most unpalatable one to most people, and which stands
very much in the way of our success) — that God is a just
God, as well as a Saviour ; that he who doeth wrong shall
receive according to the wrong he doeth ; that there is no
respect of persons. Constantly, daily, we lay down the
doctrine that God judgeth men according to their works, and
this is a doctrine that wicked men do not love to hear — it
is only good men who do. When the former class hear it
preached — (and I have preached it a great deal) — they dis
like it exceedingly ; and simply for this reason, that they do
really hope, somehow or other, to escape the punishment of
their sins.
My brother thinks Dr. Clarke was a very good man in
some respects, but that he erred exceedingly in others. I
think it likely that he did ; but I do not sympathize with my
brother in his contempt for all authority, for all the opin
ions of the learned of this country. There are a great many
men around me who have given a much larger share of
attention than I to subjects appertaining to theology, and
whose opinions are, therefore, entitled to some degree of
reverence. He speaks with respect to the Bible precisely
as a Roman Catholic does; he asks no interpretation; he
allows no man's opinion ; he wants merely the word of
Christ ; Christ says so and so, and that is enough. Now,
what I would like to know is — what Christ meant? He
said, (for example,) " This is my body ;" and " this is my

168 REV. MR. SAWYER.
blood ;" and Bishop Hughes says — " Christ said it ; believe
it, or be damned." Yes ; Christ said it, indeed ; He used
these words : but what did He mean by them. I say,
" Christ was really speaking to those to whom he gave his
body and blood." " Oh, no matter" — returns the bishop :
" it is the word of Christ ; believe it or be damned. He
spoke the word; and he that believeth shall be saved, and
he that believeth not shall be damned." Now, I should like
to know what Christ meant, because the meaning of the
Bible is the Bible ; what the inspired writers meant is what
we are required to believe. My brother has used a passage
which I quoted from Romans — for the purpose of providing
salvation for infants. I think it provides salvation for all
men, and that even his argument is worth no more than as
it points to the same result. All that theory which he so
ingeniously wove in makes no part of the Bible. Why
does he not adhere rigidly to the expressed letter of revela
tion, when it is on my side, as well as he does when it is on
his ? Paul there says " all men ;" he makes no specifica
tion of little children ; it did not seem to be in his mind ;
but my brother sees nothing but little babes there. But he
says " all men" does not mean really all men ; as when
those books were brought and burned before the presence of
all the people. But the very circumstances of the occasion
would serve to show the meaning ; they necessarily limit
the application to those who were in the place at the time.
But, when there are no such circumstances ; when the
apostle is speaking of the salvation which is by Christ
Jesus ; when we know that He died for the world, for all,
gave Himself as a ransom for all, or a propitiation for our
sins, and not ours only, but the sins of the whole world,
what reason is there why the term should be limited to a
few, or to any portion ? There being none, why should not
the word be taken in its common and proper sense ? It

REV. MR. SAWYER. 169
would be taken so, if my brother could find a passage so
clear on his side ; it would be the express word of the
Bible, and he would not allow me to turn aside one inch.
As he would hold me, I hold him. These are the words.
"All men" means all men; nothing more, and nothing
less; and this being so, the question between us is pretty
clearly settled by Divine authority. Christ says, " I will
draw all men to myself." Yes, says my brother, so He
does ; he calls them by the gospel, the preaching, the minis
try ; yet a good many reject the call. But Christ said
nothing about calling them ; He did not refer to any call.
He said — " If I be lifted up from the earth, I will draw all
men unto me." Draw them — where ? Unto Himself —
" unto me !" I do not know how it is ; my theory, per
haps, is not so clear as my brother's with respect to the
method of Christ's salvation, the old-fashioned vicarious
atonement ; but I recognize in that cross, and the death
upon it, a potency greater than our imagination can con
ceive. Throughout all the world has the voice from thence
gone sounding, or will go ; and thousands and thousands in
every age have yielded themselves to its potency, and the
process is going on still, and will continue to go on ; and
that cross shall rise, as it were, higher and higher, and
shine brighter and brighter, till every human eye is directed
to it, and every human heart has yielded to its call.
My brother has, again, much to say about constitution
and total depravity, and depravity without the total. I
care very little about that. I know the world is very
wicked — " we have all sinned, and come short of the glory
of God." There is no dispute about that. If I had time I
would dispute as to whether we are born sinners, and
whether the nature God has secured to us, by being the
children of Adam, is really corrupt, and depraved, and
deserving of endless torments. I do not believe it is ; I
8

170 REV. MR. SAWYER.
look on God's work with greater reverence and love ; I see
in the smile of an infant no token of a depraved heart. I
believe that, when our Divine Master took little children in
his arms, and spoke of them as he did, I believe he did not
look on them as the depraved creatures our theology
teaches. I do not say they are holy or innocent. I do not
say they are corrupt, but I am very well satisfied that, when
they come to act as moral beings, they will act very much
as did our first parents ; that, though created upright, and
without sin, yet, in temptation, they will soon turn aside
from the path of duty. But this does not imply any wrong
in the constitution.
I will not dispute with my brother about Christ dying for
himself. We all know that he was innocent. Judas, who
betrayed him, confessed he had betrayed innocent blood,
and went back with penitence and sorrow and cast the
money, the price of his villany, down at the feet of those
high priests. Christ died for us. The manner in which he
died, the precise significancy of that expression — " died for
us," — we perhaps may not agree on; but I believe he so
died for us as to bring us to God, make us conscious of our
duty, warm our hearts, animate our faith, turn our love
into the channel in which it should flow. I believe that he
effected the great object which he proposed to himself, what
ever it was. My brother believes it was vicarious ; and
yet it was vicarious in such a peculiar manner that it meant
nothing, unless we make it mean something. He thinks
there must have been something done to answer the de
mands of the majesty of the law — something more than
merely making men good and true — something, in a word,
to answer the demands of offended Majesty. But the mode
adopted for this purpose is a singular one. It is a very
singular fact (and I wonder this has not occurred to my
brother) that God should pour His wrath on His own inno-

REV. MR. SAWYER. 171
cent Son : it was a very peculiar method of explaining His
indignation towards sinners. Suppose a murderer in this
city were found guilty by a jury of his countrymen, and
condemned to death, and that great efforts were made to
save his life, so much so that strings of petitions to that
effect were sent to the governor from all the most respecta
ble citizens of the city. Suppose the governor should prove
inflexible ; but that, by-and-by, another deputation should
wait on him, and urge the matter, and then that he should
say — "Gentlemen, I have thought this matter over, and I
do not see well any method by which I can be at the same
time just and merciful. Yes ; there is one way — one way
that will perfectly vindicate the majesty of the law, and in
which alone I can be justified in pardoning this man."
Gladly do they receive such words, and inquire the way.
" Simply this : he is a great sinner ; I cannot look with any
degree of favor upon him ; but there is my friend, Mr.
Wescott, down there in New York ; I propose that he shall
be hung instead of this murderer, for the purpose of vin
dicating the majesty of the law of the state of New York.
Then you, citizens of the state of New York, will reverence
me for my justice and mercy, and glory shall redound to
the whole government." But, says somebody, "Mr. Wes
cott is entirely innocent." " Never mind ; the more inno
cent the more to my purpose — the more to the purpose of
maintaining the majesty of the law !"
What would we think of this governor, and this justice,
and this mercy, and this glory? No, no, my friends! God
sent His Son to seek and save that which was lost. He so
loved the world that He sent him to be its Saviour ; and
so He showed His love in that, though we were sinners,
Christ died for us, and God was in Christ, reconciling the
world to himself.

172 REV. MR. WESCOTT.
Rev. Mr. Wescott. — I do not wonder that my brother
knows not where to put Christ in his plan of salvation ; I
certainly should not, on his system. I have asked the
question frequently, but got no answer. The whole matter
seems to be shrouded in mystery. He asks whether it
would be right for God to punish an innocent person,
instead of a guilty one ? I will just read one passage of
scripture in addition to the many I have read already, which
shows that He did so, whether we conceive it consistent or
not. " Awake, oh sword ! against my shepherd, and
against the man that is my fellow, saith the Lord of Hosts ;
smite the shepherd." I believe it will not be disputed that
the reference here is to Christ.
Already, by my brother's own acknowledgment, we have
seen man in a lost and ruined state. If lost and ruined,
that state is just. He has transgressed the law which, in a
measure, is inflexible. How can man be delivered from
the curse of the law ? I say, — I repeat, — that Jesus Christ
offered Himself to keep that law perfect in His own person.
Then, when He would have had a title to have gone home
to glory, without suffering, so far as His own salvation — He
offered Himself, instead, to suffer to an extent that would
satisfy the intelligences throughout God's universe, — that
God regarded His own law, and that the transgressor
could not be forgiven unless the law were satisfied in him
self or in a substitute. Jesus Christ did thus satisfy the
law, so as to render it consistent to dispense pardon to who
ever repented and believed. My brother asks if this was
reasonable. I answer yes ; infinitely so. But, suppose it
were not within the scope of my reason, or my brother's —
suppose it one of these things into which the angels
desire to look, but cannot — what of that ? If the scriptures
declare it is so, are we to arraign the Infinite God at the
bar of our finite reason, and try Him there ? But are there

REV. MR. WESCOTT. 173
really no' reasons for this substitution ? Man could not
bear the penalty of the law without ruin ; Jesus Christ
could ; also, on account of the dignity of His person, His
sufferings were infinitely valuable. The value of sufferings
is in proportion to the dignity of the sufferer. If a man
slew a beast, he could pay the price of its blood in money ;
but not so the blood of man. " Whoso sheddeth man's
blood, by man shall his blood be shed." Why could not
a ransom be paid for the death of man ? Because of the
superior dignity of man. Suppose an angel were made the
offering; clearly, the value would be higher still. But
look at the Infinite Son of God ; assuming our flesh and
giving infinite dignity to our flesh proportionate to the
exceeding grandeur and glory of His own infinite nature,
which gives to His sufferings for an hour an importance
that would not attach to the sufferings of such creatures as
we, continued through millions of years. Jesus Christ
offers Himself, and is accepted by the government of heaven.
What objection can any man have to that ? Suppose that
twenty or thirty persons were to be executed, and suppose
it were consistent with the justice of human governments —
(which it is not) — that my friend, on account of his high
standing in society, his influence and his education, could,
without ruining himself, endure an amount of suffering
instead of those twenty, which would provide for them a
way of salvation, without having the force ofthe penal law
destroyed and trampled under foot — and suppose he offered
himself for this end ; what objection, under the supposed
circumstances, could there be ? So, Jesus Christ offered
Himself ; He was accepted ; He endured the penalty ; He
entered the grave ; He arose from it, triumphant, and now
reigns in glory. I suppose that, if the offering of the inno
cent instead of the guilty, could result in greater good, the
matter would be better still, and still more reasonable.

174 REV. MR. WESCOTT.
What was the good resulting from the death of Jesus
Christ ? Let the songs of thanksgiving from nearly a
million of congregations throughout Christendom on every
sabbath-day, attest ! Let the songs of the millions that
have entered the holy city, bear testimony, — whom Jesus
Christ has glorified through His sorrows and His sufferings.
Why, then, does reason rebel ? But, whether it seems to
us reasonable or not, it is God's plan ; so Jehovah hath
ordered it ; and we must humbly come, and embrace it,
or perish.
The remark which I made, and which drew out the re
mark of my friend with regard to orthodox ministers, I
meant not with regard to Universalists ; my contest is not
with Universalists as men, but with Universalism as a sys
tem, and a doctrine. I simply said the truth, that thousands
of young men who wish to live a life of sinful pleasure, but
are deterred by the fear of the wrath of God, are glad to
take hold of the idea that His wrath will never be executed,
and are ready to embrace Infidelity, or any other system
of error, whereby they can silence conscience and put her
to sleep, and pursue their sinful career unconcerned. That
is all I said. That is the true remark I made ; a rather
severe one ; but one I had to make. Allow me to say, that
this whole question has been conducted by my opponent in
a very gentlemanly manner ; I have no complaint to make.
But there are men here to-night who will bear me witness
that, if they could be satisfied that there was no future
misery, they would be quite willing to take the misery that
is felt here, from day to day, for the sake of worldly excite
ment, and sinful pleasure. It was to arrest the downward
course of this class that Jehovah has uttered the threatenings
which we find in His word, which teacheth that we must
embrace the terms of pardon — or perish.
My brother asks, again, how we can save infants without

REV. MR. WESCOTT. 175
saving the entire human family ; the same construction, he
says, of the holy word, would save the whole world. I
answer simply, so far as the world would be condemned by
Adam's transgression, so far the whole world is saved. No
man living has any sense of guilt on account of Adam's
transgression — he has the consequences — pain, and death, and
sickness, and disappointment ; the atonement of Jesus
Christ has delivered the world from condemnation in the
world to come, under which it came by Adam's transgres
sion. But when he commits sin for himself, he must repent
for himself, or perish for his own sins.
We are condemned, then, in consequence of our own
acts ; and it is because men will sin, and not repent and
believe in Jesus Christ, that they will be lost. I cannot see
any mystery about this. My brother does not believe that
we are born into the world with sinful propensities, or a
sinful moral nature. Let me ask a simple question. If the
twenty or thirty texts I have quoted directly asserting that
we are, do not satisfy him, what will ? If children be born
holy and pure, how happens it that no one ever grew up
so ? How happens it, in all the world of mankind, that no
child ever yet grew up pure and holy ? How happens it that,
in a child, the earliest developments are those of anger,
wrath, ill-will ? How can this be accounted for, except on
the ground of natural depravity ? Here we are, sinners by
nature, under the condemnation of God's holy and righteous
law, with the atonement of Jesus Christ made, and the
demands on us, to repent, and believe the gospel ; for we
are told that by this we can be saved — otherwise, that we
must perish eternally. The scriptures give full warning of
this. Proverbs 1 : 24, " Because I have called, and ye
refused ; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regard-
eth ; But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would
none of my reproof ; I also will laugh at your calamity ; I

176 REV. MR. WESCOTT.
will mock when your fear cometh ; When your fear cometh
as desolation, and your destruction as a whirlwind ; when
distress and anguish cometh upon you. Then shall they
call upon me, but I will not answer ; they shall seek me
early, but they shall not find me." This is a most fearful
warning, by the eternal Jehovah, to those who will not
listen to the offers of grace ; to those who will not believe
in Christ ; to those who will not repent in time." God
gives this warning ; — and my earnest entreaty to you is, to
listen to it, and attend to it, before it shall be too late.

SEVENTH EVENING.
Rev. Dr. Babcock having addressed the Throne of
Grace :
Rev. Dr. Sawyer said — There is one thing which must
have struck all your minds as very singular, I think, if not
altogether unaccountable. I allude to the remarkable fact
that, while my opponent and myself are gradually agreeing
in regard to the attributes of God — His wisdom, His good
ness, His love, His power, nevertheless, the conclusions at
which we arrive from considering them are diametrically
opposed to each other. I have maintained that God could
have created our race only for the purpose of their final
holiness and happiness. He, on the contrary, contends that
endless, and perhaps, I shall say, infinite misery may be the
issue of this creation. It is very obvious that both of these
conclusions cannot be true ; and it is equally obvious, it
seems to me, that one of us must have reasoned very
badly ; or, at least, that we must differ very widely indeed
in respect to the terms which we employed. My notion of
the Divine perfections must, of necessity, be very unlike
his ; else it would be impossible for us to think so differ
ently respecting the final result of the Divine government.
Is there no method by which we can be constrained to see
this subject in the same light ? Can we not determine God's
real will, and the character of His government, and what
we may reasonably expect from them ? There is one me-
8*

178 REV. MR. SAWYER.
thod, I think, simple, and clear, and conclusive ; let us, for
a moment, attend to it. There is one fortunate circumstance
attending Christianity everywhere : namely, that all men
agree with respect to iis great moral principles, and the
duties which those principles demand of us. It matters not
to what sect or party in religion we may chance to belong ;
no Christian ever doubted that it was his duty, for instance,
to love God supremely, and to love his neighbor as him
self; to speak the truth; and to labor to do God's will.
We differ widely about many doctrines, as you have seen ;
but not at all about moral duties and moral principles.
Here, then, there is a broad and clear ground of union
among the sects and among all christians ; and I am happy
to call your attention to it. I propose, this evening, to con
sider those principles and duties a little in detail. It may
seem to you out of place, and of no momeut ; yet it were
worth your time at least to reflect on the subject, even
though it did not properly belong to this part of our debate.
For the purpose of making myself better understood, I
will endeavor to place before you the duties God is pleased
to require of us ; in the first place as they appear negatively
- — that is, as He commands us not to do certain things.
We aie forbidden, for instance, to indulge in certain tem
pers, dispositions, practices and acts. We are forbidden to
indulge in anger, wrath, hatred, malice. We are forbidden
to do whatsoever would spring forth from such malevolent
passions. We are not to speak evil of any one ; we are
not to injure any one ; we are to recompense to no man
evil for evil ; we are not to curse, and so on. There are
many passages of scripture which are very explicit on these
points, and they lie so plainly on the face of Revelation that no
man can doubt them. Thus, in Ephesians 4 : 31, the apostle
says, " Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamor,
and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice."

REV. MR. SAWYER. 179
Reflect on these terms for a moment. See how broad, and
clear, and general, and decisive they are. Again, the
apostle says, " Put off the old man which is corrupt, accord
ing to the deceitful lusts ; and be renewed in the spirit of
your mind ; and that ye put on the new man, which after
God is created in righteousness and true holiness. Wherefore
putting away lying, speak every man truth." Thus are all
the vices interdicted to which our race is given. So much
for the spirit of Christianity. Now, take Romans 12 : 17,
with regard to the practical duties of Christians, " Recom
pense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the
sight of all men. If it be possible, as much as lieth in you,
live peaceably with all men. Dearly beloved, avenge not
yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath ; for it is
written, Vengeance is mine, I will repay, saith the Lord ;
Therefore, if thine enemy hunger, feed him ; if he thirst,
give him drink ; for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire
on his head. Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil
with good." As Christians, we all acknowledge that these
are our duties, and that we are bound to obey them. We
are to put away those bad passions, to forbid ourselves this
ill conduct — in one word, we are to cease to do evil. Think
for a moment what a change should come over our world if
all men were to conform themselves strictly to this negative
morality ; were all Christians to put away all bad passions
from their hearts, envy, and anger, and wrath, and hatred,
and malice; to recompense to no man evil for evil ; to put
off the old man entirely ; never to revenge themselves, but
to refer all to the government of their Creator. What a
happy world would this then be ! But suppose they went
still further, and put into their hearts all the principles and
virtues which Christianity comprises ; suppose they would
• study to be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving
one another ; suppose they were honest in all things, as the

180 REV. MR SAWYER.
apostle enjoins ; suppose they lived peaceably ; suppose
they came up to the requirements of St. Paul, when he said,
" If thine enemy hunger, feed him ; if he thirst, give him
drink ; for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his
head." What then would you think of human life and the
world ? Would not the earth be almost transformed into
heaven at once? Only let the principles of the divine
religion of our master sink deeply into our hearts, and bring
forth their fruits, and earth becomes paradise again. Or,
take the words of our Divine Master himself, where He
expresses the whole truth, in a very few sentences. " Ye
have heard that it hath been said, Love thy neighbor, and
hate thine enemy." Having made that clear statement of
the principles of the old philosophy, and religion, and faith,
the Saviour goes on thus, " But I say unto you, Love your
enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that
hate you, and pray for them that despitefully use you, and
persecute you." Here you have both the temper which
Christ requires of us, and the exercise of that temper in
ordinary practical life. Now, say what we will about it,
my friends, this is Christian morality ; this is the Christian
spirit and the Christian life ; and we are Christians really
no farther than we conform with these rules. Our ortho
doxy, or our heterodoxy, will do us no good if they do not
inspire us with their spirit, and attach us to their practice.
Are we agreed so far ? I am sure my brother will say
" yes" to that, and so will you all. Here there is no dif
ference of opinion ; with respect to these truths we all stand
on common ground. Let us thank God for it, and take
courage. But, says some one yonder, what has all this to do with
the subject before us ? Let me tell you, very much, in
deed, my friend, as we shall proceed to show. To be a
Christian, (as we have seen) I must be Christ-like ; I must

REV. MR. SAWYER. 181
have Christ's spirit, his temper, and his disposition ; I must
live as he lived ; not in the same degree, perhaps, for that
would be beyond my power, but certainly in the same
manner. I must have the same kind of life, the same kind
of spirit. Arid, in like manner, to be a child of God, a
son of God, in the highest sense, the spiritual sense, I must
be like God — I must resemble God in my temper, and in
my spirit, and in my life. A godly man is one who is God
like, who resembles God, who follows God. Now, we are
not only required to be followers of Christ, and imitators of
Christ, but we are required to follow and imitate God him
self. The apostle says, in connection with the above passage
in Ephesians : " Be ye followers of God, and walk in love,
as Christ also has loved us." The word here rendered
followers is fiifjw)<rai, which properly means imitators ; it is
the word from which our English word " mimic" comes.
One who imitates another may be said, in a good sense of
the term, to be a mimic of that other. We are to imitate
God ; that is the doctrine of the apostle. The more nearly
we can be like him, the better and happier shall we be, for
he is the infinite standard of all moral excellence in the
universe ; to be like him is to be truly good. Being unlike
him, falling into wrong and evil — that is the great calamity
of man.
Now you will readily see why we are required to love
God ; since, if we love him like dear children, we shall, like
dear children, endeavor to imitate him, as all the best men
ever have endeavored. Thus we are required to love our
neighbors, since love is of God himself. I wish you to fix
in your minds the fact that our highest duty, as religious
beings, is to love and resemble God. This, it seems to me,
is everywhere enjoined in the gospel. There is no other
ground of morality than the Divine Character. We are
required to be holy because He is holy. We are to speak

182 REV. MR. SAWYER.
the truth, because He is truth. Tell me what God is, and
you tell me, at the same time, what my duty is ; for I am
to be like Him. You will now see how infinitely important
it is to have just conceptions of God, because we are to be
like Him. If we have not true conceptions, and are not
true to our just conceptions, the whole character of our
moral life will be warped and corrupted. No matter what
my notions of God may be, I can hardly rise above them ;
the stream will not go higher than its fountain ; man will
not be better than his God. So said the prophet of old :
"All nations shall walk, every man in the name of his
God ;" that is, as I understand, every man will, in his
character, imitate the God he worships ; his notions of the
character of his God will overshadow him, and control his
temper and his life ; he wi11 grow into the image of the
God whom he adores. Now, you will at once perceive
that, if we have false views of God, these at once enter into
our spiritual life, and at once corrupt the very fountain of
our spiritual being. Tell me what notions you have of
God, and I will tell you what kind of man you are. God
requires us, as I have now shown, to put away all bitter
ness, and anger, and -wrath, with all malice. But, I wish to
know if God indulges these passions Himself. Understand
me. God commands me to put away all anger, and wrath,
and malice. Now, I wish to know if God Himself indulges
tbese passions — because, if he does, and I put them away,
I shall be unlike God at once. If He indulges anger, and
malice, and wrath, then, to be like God, I must indulge
these passions — that is plain enough.
Now, the doctrine which I am opposing, and which my
brother here so eloquently and effectively recommends and
enforces, teaches, if I understand, tnat God is an angry
Being; actually does indulge anger, hatred, and malice,
practices wrath ; and yet the same God commands me in

REV. MR. SAWYER. 183
the Gospel to put away all these — to be utterly without
them, and to cherish an entirely different spirit. I am to
exercise love and forgiveness ; I am to De kind and tender
hearted, to practice all the gentle and affectionate virtues,
while God Himself practices an entirely different class.
God is angry — but I am not to be. God exercises wrath,
and I am not to exercise it. How then, do I imitate God ?
Suppose I become a Christian, suppose I follow Christ and
do as he commands, I should like to know how I imitate
the God whom my brother here recommends? Christ re
quires us to love our enemies. " I say to you," says our
great Teacher, " love your enemies." Everybody knows
how to love his friends, but the great mystery of the gospel
was how to love one's enemies. Christ enjoins us, as one
of our duties, to love our enemies. I wish to know if God
loves His enemies. Does He love his enemies ? If He
does not, then I am not like God when I love mine. But
if He does love his enemies, then I should like to know
what ground the doctrine of endless punishment has to
stand on. I am sure I should never torture even for a cen
tury, to say nothing of eternity, anybody that I love. God
requires me to bless those who curse me ; that is what He
requires of us all as the disciples of Christ. Does God
Himself practice what he enjoins here ? Or does He only
bless those that bless Him, but curse those who curse Him ?
If orthodoxy be true, the latter is true — God curses those
who curse Him. To-day He may be tolerant, may allow
us to go on our way, may be tender and kind. But, alas !
when I pass over the mysterious line which separates the
present from the future, God is benignant no longer ! but,
with all the infinity of His power, with all the energy of
his Being, he curse^s me throughout eternity ! If that be
not to curse after a strange fashion, I want to know what
can cursing be. And I am to copy God, I am to imitate

184 REV. MR. SAWYER.
God, so far as I can. I am to follow Him and gather up
His spirit ; I am not to love my enemies ; I am not to
bless those that hate me, and to pray for those that perse
cute and calumniate me ! No, it cannot be so ; for God,
by His own Word, requires me to do good to those that
hate me. Does He Himself do good to those that hate
Him? If the doctrine of endless torments be true — if the
doctrine my brother labors to support be true — then God
does not do good to those that hate Him. He may to-day ;
but, to-morrow, or next day, the moment they enter the
eternal world, they go beyond the reach of His mercy —
that mercy which the Psalmist celebrates over and over
again as enduring forever and ever ! To send an individual
to hell, to confine him there, to perpetuate his existence,
merely that he may suffer every form of misery which an
All-powerful Being can inflict upon him, that it is possible
for an Infinite Being to invent, — to punish him in never-
ending fires, and such fires as our orthodox divines have
described with so much eloquence and such terrible effect —
is that to do good to those that hate Him ? If it be, might
I be informed what it would be to do them evil ? Why,
my friends, the great objection I have to the doctrine of
endless torments is that it holds up to us a God whom we
cannot love, whom we cannot imitate without making our
selves the children of the devil. Let the spirit this doctrine
infuses go out, (as, God knows, it has gone out too freely)
and it carries with it, wherever it goes, a hard, sour, perse
cuting spirit, builds up inquisitions, pursues and persecutes
the innocent, grinds them to the dust, and makes the earth
swim in tears and blood. Read the history of the Church,
through which this doctrine has gone like an evil spirit, and
you will see what baleful effects its presence has had on
men's minds and in their actions. Let us learn to avoid
this dark, this lamentable error, let us learn to look on God

REV. MR. SAWYER. 185
as the Infinite Morality, who blesses His enemies, who does
good to those who hate Him. Then shall we begin to imi
tate God, and find our highest enjoyment as well as our
highest duty in those teachings which Jesus Christ not only
taught, but exemplified in his life. Could we learn to know
that God, by His very nature, cannot but bless us all, how
that blessed knowledge would change all our feelings, and
the whole current of our lives !
You will, then, readily see the force of this moral argu
ment in favor of Universalism. We predicate it on the
very moralities of the gospel itself, and from that ground it
cannot be removed. I now know, when I look at God,
what goodness means in Him, what love means in Him,
what forgiveness means in Him, what tenderness and mercy
mean in Him, because He has instructed me to be this and
thus, and, at the same time, to be like Himself; and then,
this is no longer a mystery to me, but, in His moral nature,
as it has come down and spoken to me, as it is, face to face,
I see God in Christ Jesus, in His doctrines, in His love, in
His life, in all the sufferings through which he passed — in
His last solemn prayer upon the cross — " Father, forgive
them, for they know not what they do ;" and then I feel a
new life has entered into the world — I feel that it is no
longer dark as it was before — I feel that men have learned
to love their enemies, that they have been instructed to
bless those who curse them, that they have been taught
that God is good to all, that His tender mercies extend over
all His works, that He is kind even to the unthankful and
the evil, that, in a word, He loves His enemies, and that,
out of that love of His sprang the gospel itself, that He
sent Jesus Christ because He loved sinners — because He
would seek and save that which was lost, and bring all to
eternal salvation.
Great stress has been laid, and is always laid, by our

186 KEV. MR. SAWYER.
orthodox friends, on the moral tendency of the doctrine of
endless misery. They see in it a power calculated to shield
men from transgression, and- guide them in the path of
truth ; but I am just as much persuaded that it has a power
to teach men wrong, to instruct them in evil passions and
malice, to encourage them in wrath, and to lead them into
a path that God has not marked out for them, and one that
He never would bless. But, some one will say, — my bro
ther will say — " Do not the Scriptures speak of God as a
God of wrath? — do they not represent Him as indulging in
anger ?" Yes, they do ; and the same Scriptures speak of
God as a being, who has arms, and hands, and eyes, and a
mouth ; they speak of Him after the manner of men ; but,
when Jesus Christ speaks of Him, he speaks of Him as the
Eternal Father — as a Being of Infinite Love — whose good
ness is greater than we have yet imagined, and overshadows
and embosoms us all. What the Scriptures mean by God's
wrath is His punishments ; but even these spring out of
His goodness and love : they are not vindictive ; they are
not intended to destroy ; their object is not to make men
miserable, but to teach them, to instruct them, to make
them understand their duty, to lead them into the way of
life. They are reformatory in their character : as the
apostle says, when speaking on this subject, — " We have
had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them
reverence : shall we not much rather be in subjection unto
the Father of spirits and live ? For they " (that is, our
earthly parents,) " verily for a few days chastened us after
their own pleasure" (sometimes unwisely, in passion, or
anger,) " but he for our profit, that we might be partakers
of his holiness. Now, no chastening for the present seemeth
to be joyous, but grievous ; nevertheless, afterward it yieldeth
the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are
exercised thereby."

EEV. MR. WESCOTT. 187
Rev. Mr. Wescott. — It seems, then, if we can have a
God to suit us, we can love Him ; but if not, we will de
throne Him, if we can. That is what my opponent's argu
ment amounts to. I repeat that that is the amount of it.
If we can have a God to suit us, we can love Him ; if not,
we will dethrone Him if we can. If God will do just as we
want Him to, treat men just as we wish Him to, if He will
talk just as we would have him, He may be God ; but if
not, then He is compared to the devil ! and they that imi
tate Him, to the children of the devil ! In regard to what
my opponent said during the first part of his speech, I was
happy, most happy, to accord with him as to those negative
virtues which are enjoined on us : these we are to possess ;
and the positive ones required of us we are to exercise.
But it is strange he did not stumble even more than he did
when he came to one text. It is strange, I say, he did not
stumble a little more ; he hesitated (though I think it strange
that he did not hesitate more) at the reason assigned why
we are not to avenge ourselves. " Vengeance is mine, saith
the Lord, and I will repay." As though Jehovah had said —
"My children, I know better how to avenge your wrongs
than you do. I see the end from the beginning ; leave,
then, the avenging of your wrongs to me."
My brother seems to suppose, that whatever would be
wrong in a finite, short-sighted creature of to-day, would be
wrong in the Infinite and Eternal God, the maker and ruler
of the universe. Now, it would be very wrong for some
half-a-dozen of us here present to seize on a man who we
knew had violated the law, thrust him into prison, and load
him with chains. But suppose that the same man was
arrested by one legal process, brought before a court and
jury, tried, and convicted, is there no authority in our judi
cial tribunals, rightly and justly vested there, to confine him
in prison ? I think the application is very plain. Is, then,

188 REV. MR. WESCOTT.
the judge and ruler of the universe to refrain from doing
what would be wrong in my opponent and me, for no other
reason but that it would be wrong in us ? I have not so
studied my bible — I have not so learned God. My brother
asks, if we all acted as we should, what a blessed place this
earth would be. To which, if I were a good Methodist — (and,
perhaps, I ought as a Baptist,) — I would have said " Amen !"
Then there would be no present nor future punishment to
speak about. But the difficulty is, we do not act so. In
stead of being in humble and obedient allegiance to the
great sovereign and ruler of the universe, we are in a
revolted state ; we stand with the arms of rebellion in our
hands, sowing the seeds of disorder and anarchy, driving
our weapons at the very foundation of the throne itself, and
saying to God, '' If Thou wilt rule just as we wish Thee to
rule, then we will serve Thee ; if not, then we will curse
Thee !" It would, perhaps, have been the best argument I
could use against the final salvation of all men, just to have
risen and said, " Take the argument of my opponent, lay it
beside your own common-sense, lay both beside the bible,
and see if a doctrine which leads its advocates to the avowal
of such feelings and principles, is a doctrine likely to con
duct to heaven, where ail is obedience, where all is swal
lowed up in the mind and will of God." Let us hear what
God says upon this matter ; or, rather, let me first say, if
we all did as we should, our state would be a happy one.
So it was with Adam. Did he remain so ? Oh, no ! Is
any one of his descendants in that state ? Oh, no ! Then
what is the application here ? What has all this to do with
our question, — " Do the holy scriptures teach the final
salvation of all men ?" If in all lands, and in all ages, not
a solitary soil or daughter of Adam ever reached the point
of goodness, what does all this amount to ? But here is
the truth : " Thou thoughtest I was altogether such an one

REV. MR. WESCOTT. 189
as thyself." Oh ! they had then, in the days of the old
prophet, those who used to try and judge God by their own
human feelings ; and Jehovah answers, " Your sin is that
you thought I was altogether such an one as you are ; and
for this I will rebuke you in my displeasure." My oppo
nent says, God is represented as a God of malice. I never
heard that attribute given to Jehovah before. I never
heard a man who believed in future punishment, say it-
But the bible says, (and that, my friends, is a book that
weighs with me considerably,) that God is angry with the
wicked every day. This I throw upon your consciences in
opposition to his declaration. The bible says, God is angry
with the wicked every day. This was written by the inspi
ration of the Holy Spirit. If he can explain that away, so
as to make anger love, he can make black white, and he
comes as near doing it as any man I ever heard plead.
" God is angry with the wicked every day." Again ; the
men of the world are represented, at a certain period of
Christ's reign, saying to the rocks and the mountains, " Fall
on us, and hide us from the face of Him that sitteth on the
throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb ; for the great day
of His wrath is come." Oh, yes ! God has wrath ; He has
anger ; He has no malice, but wrath and anger ; and I would
believe it and preach it, if all the world besides me were
Universalists, and maintained that those passages of scripture
were utterly false ; I still would clasp my bible to my
heart, and justify God, and say with holy Job, " Though
He slay me, yet will I trust in Him." My religion teaches
me so to revere my God ; and in this my religion differs
from that of my opponent. Again ; in reference to that
passage — which, being ascribed to Christ, cannot be denied,
" Kiss the Son, lest He be angry, and ye perish from the
way." What was all this if God have no wrath, if He
never be angry ? What mean all these warnings, scattered

190 REV. MR. WESCOTT.
broad-cast on God's word ? Universalism is one system,
and the bible doctrine its antipode. I do not wonder that
a Universalist preacher said, " We differ from the partialist,
or orthodox, sects in every particular ; we have a different
God, a different Christ, a different Saviour, a different sin.
a different sinner, a different pardon, a different atonement,
a different regeneration, a different hell, a different heaven."
Oh, it is all different ; and different from the doctrine of the
bible, as is the dark midnight hour from the resplendent
noon-day ray. Again, hear what God says in Isaiah 27 : 11,
" He that made them will not have mercy on them, and He
that formed them will show them no favor." We may
arrive at that point, fellow-sinner ! You may resist God
till His mercy yields to wrath, at that point where He says,
" I that formed them, will show them no favor." All these
texts of scripture occurred to my mind when I was listening
to my opponent. The fact is, these texts are scattered
everywhere in the bible ; almost in every page we find
these threatenings of Jehovah against the wicked. Look
again. It would be very wrong in me to say to any man,
" You are a serpent, and you are the son of a viper ;" but
I never would say that Christ did wrong, nor harbor a
thought against my Saviour, because He said, "You serpents,
you generation of vipers, how can you escape the damnation
of hell ?" Oh, my friends ! there may be things right with
God, that are wrong with us. His premise was right, but
his inference wrong. We ought to possess all graces com
manded by our holy religion ; we ought to imitate God in
all His perfections ; but we cannot infer from that, that
God must not exercise wrath which we are not allowed to
exercise. There was a passage or two introduced into last even
ing's discussion ; I allude particularly to Romans 1 1 ; from
the manner in which it was read, I saw that it made an im-

REV. MR. WESCOTT. 191
pression on the minds of the congregation i-n favor of this
thought, that the gospel which was sent to the world was
finally not only intended for the whole world, but must
result in the final salvation of every human family. I wish
to take that very chapter, and ask you to go through
with an analysis of some parts. We will see the dif
ference, when the text is looked at in the connexion.
Suppose we take that chapter, Romans 11, commencing
first, if you please, with the 12th verse, "Now, if the fall of
them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them
the riches of the Gentiles ;" that is the qualifying phrase, for
there is no man who does not know that " Gentile" and
" world" are used interchangeably, as meaning the same
thing — by a simple variety in expression to avoid tautology ;
so that by the " world," as used in this chapter, and by the
" world," as used by the apostle in almost the entire Epistle
to the Romans, he simply means the Gentiles in contradis
tinction to the Jews. In the old Jewish system, the Gen
tile was not permitted to participate with the Jew in
religious privileges. So exclusive was the- Jewish religion,
that the Gentile could not approach so near the temple as
the court of Israel. The whole system was confined to the
Jews alone. But the gospel was for the whole world, —
Gentile as well as Jew; and it is called the Gentile world,
and sometimes the whole world, meaning theGentile world,
meaning both Jew and Gentile. But you find not a sen
tence implying that every individual of the whole world
must be made the happy recipient of life everlasting. " I
speak to you, Gentiles," says St. Paul, "inasmuch as I am
the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify my office ; if by any
means I may provoke to emulation them which are my
flesh, and might save some of them." There was a danger,
then, of their being lost ? Oh ! so says the apostle, and
this was the reason why he labored, in hope that he might

192 REV. MR. WESCOTT.
save some of them. Again, pass down to the 20th verse ;
" Well, because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou
standest by faith. Be not high-minded, but fear." See
how the apostle mingles fear with all the gracious invita
tions offered in this chapter. " For if God spared not the
natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Behold, therefore, the goodness and severity of God ; on
them which fell, severity ; but toward thee, goodness, if
thou continue in his goodness ; otherwise thou also shalt be
cut off." Now, let me ask, in this connexion, does it sound
like the same passage that was read to you last night ?
We might go on, line by line, through the passage, and
still find a different spirit from that intended to be conveyed
by my opponent ; everywhere the apostle mingles threaten
ings with the glorious promises of God. Just so it was
with another passage of scripture, which I last evening
presented, and thought upon. My brother puts this triumph
antly, — " Ask of me, and I will give thee the heathen for
thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for
thy possession." But, when I just read the next verse,
" Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron, and dash them
in pieces like a potter's vessel ;" it throws a very different
aspect on the whole passage. And so with another text,
" He came unto His own." Who were they ? my brother
asked, and answered, " the whole world." What did He
come to them for ? To seek them, and save them ! And
thus mingling two passages forty pages apart, he makes out
a very fair case. But, let us take the passage as it is ; " He
came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as
many as received him, to them gave he power to become
the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name."
To become the sons of God, when they believed Christ —
just the doctrine I have preached for a quarter of a century !
These passages are samples of all that my brother has

REV. MR. WESCOTT. 193
introduced for seven evenings. But I do not blame him.
He has done better than I could have done in his cause. I
should have given it up long ago. When, last Tuesday,
after consultation, they hurled down an avalanche of texts,
(probably to overwhelm me) yet, what did they all avail ?
As well might you read the chapter in Hebrews concerning
Melchizedek, and contend that it established the doctrine
contained in the question we are discussing.
Now let me give you a few simple, plain passages of
Scripture, containing' warnings and declarations of Divine
truths, that clearly show the unsoundness of all this sophistry.
First Peter, 4 : 18, — " What shall the end be of them that
obey not the Gospel of God ? And, if the righteous scarcely
be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?"
Jude, 7th verse, — " Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the
cities about them, in like manner, giving themselves over to
fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an
example, suffering" (at the present time, you see,) "the
vengeance of eternal fire." It was not the wood, the brick,
the walls of the city, that were suffering eternal fire : that
could not be ; it was the inhabitants. And for two thousand
years, at the time when Jude uttered those words, the in
habitants had been, and then were, suffering the vengeance
of eternal fire. And yet the sacred writer calls it eternal fire
still, and sets it forth to be an example to others. In Mark,
3 : 29, we read, — " He that shall blaspheme against the
Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of
eternal damnation." Can a man be in danger of that which
never existed ? If there were no such thing as eternal
damnation, could a man be in danger of it? Suppose I
were to warn you as you were going out of this hall to
night, to be careful not to step into the river, you would
say — " Mr. Wescott talks strangely." Why ? Because you
know very well there is no river between this place and the

194 REV. MR. WESCOTT.
street. So, if a man can be in danger of eternal damnation,
it exists — my authority is the Lord Jesus Christ. That
may not be very good authority with my opponent ; still, I
think it had better settle down into jour hearts, my friends;
it is authority that will stand when the heavens and the
earth are rolled together as a scroll !
Again: look at Luke 9 : 26, — "Whosoever shall be
ashamed of me and my words, of him shall the Son of man
be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory." Now,
if when Christ comes in his own glory and the glory of the
Father, any are in danger of having Christ ashamed of
them, how unhappy — how miserable must be their doom !
I ask you, fellow-sinner, whether you should like to meet it?
Those who neglect Christ — those who do not give him their
daily prayers — those who are ashamed of him — he shall be
ashamed of them when he comes in his glory and the glory
of his Father. Again ; Luke 12 : 4, 5, — " Be not afraid ot
them that kill the body, and after that have no more that
they can do. But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear.
Fear him which, after he hath killed, hath power to cast
into hell ; yea, I say unto you, Fear him." This is after
death — after the body is killed : man can kill the body ;
but there is One who declares that He has power to kill,
and also to cast into hell. What mean these warnings from
the lips of Infinite Wisdom? What means Jesus Christ?
Oh! ye creatures of the Infinite God, living amidst His
boundless mercies, and tending to the judgment-seat of
Christ, what mean those warnings scattered over the pages
of His Sacred Book? Again; Romans 9 : 19, 20, 22,
where one is represented as complaining of God, and say
ing, — " Who hath resisted his will ?" the apostle answers
and says, — " Nay but, oh man ! who art thou that repliest
against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that
formed it, Why hast thou made me thus ? Hath not the

REV. MR. SAWYER. 195
potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one
vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor? What if
God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power
known, endured with much long-suffering the vessels of
wrath fitted to destruction." Now, my friends, it ought to
take something more than for my opponent to tell you that
this God of wrath is not his God. He is your judge ; you
may trample on His mercy ; you may turn a deaf ear to
His invitation ; but the chain of His omnipotence holds you
to His bar. " Oh ! kiss the Son, lest he be angry and ye
perish from the way !"
My opponent may say he does not think so badly of bis
God, but there are the words of inspiration that speak of
wrath ; yea, they come in tones of warning to arrest your
ear on probation's ground ; they are a warning while mercy
waits. Listen to it — oh ! listen to it ! Listen not to the
syren song, which says that though you go on in sin, yet
you may be spared ; that there may be peace when God
has spoken of no peace. Let these words taken from the
page of God's inspired word drop like words of inspiration
into your ears and into your hearts !
Rev. Dr. Sawyer. — My opponent labors under two diffi
culties. This terrible doctrine of endless punishment has
been in his mind so long, and he has come to cherish it so
much, that he can see nothing else in the bible. It looms
up everywhere to his eyes ; thousands of passages sup
porting it, as he supposes, crowd on him from all quarters.
It is really astonishing how he meets with it on every page.
His condition on this point reminds me of a good old doctor
who once preached a sermon, (and a terrible sermon it was)
from this text — "In one time their foot shall slip," — where-
from he made out eternal punishment for the greater part
of the human family, with exceedingly great cleverness and

196 REV. MR. SAWYER.
force, although, in fact, nobody else could see any allusion
to it in the text he was dealing with. My brother has
quoted a great many texts, which, as he thinks, teach the
doctrine of endless torments ; and to those who have from
the cradle drunk in that doctrine, as it were, with their
mother's milk, those texts have a very formidable sound.
But the Universalist has already been through all this edu
cation himself,- and he has been enabled, by the light of
God, and by the Scriptures of God's truth, to discover that
these passages do not at all mean what the orthodox world
supposes they do. My brother talks as if we had never
seen these terrible denunciations — as if his utterance were
to bring them, for the first time, to the ears of Universalists.
Let me tell you, my friends, we are more familiar with them
than they are. We have gone over them a hundred times,
again and again ; we have studied them in the light afforded
by their own commentators ; and there is not a passage in
the Old or New Testament which their commentators have
not given up as teaching this doctrine of endless punish
ment. I am surprised to see my brother dwell on the good
results of this gloomy belief, when others, such as Professor
Stuart, admit that this tremendous doctrine, if true at all,
covers the whole universe with darkness. My brother talks
as if the doctrine were to be made out in the easiest man
ner possible, and as if there were nothing in it that should
not be expected in the government of the infinite, wisep
great, and good God, while, as has been clearly shown, and
by a rule, or instinct, a principle that must find an instant
and heartfelt response in the breast of every human being
that hears me, it is the very last resource, the very last
supposition, that any moral being would have recourse to ;
and the man who believes it, without the best of all reasons,
and by the force of evidence that goes beyond all doubt, no

REV. MR. SAWYER. 197
shadow of doubt, is doing dishonor to God, and God's
government. It is not my business to follow my brother and show you
how the passages he ciies are to be interpreted in accordance
with their'meanmg and its consistence with the whole govern
ment of God. They have a meaning — they do express real
facts; and my brother is not quite fair in hiding from you
the circumstance that we believe all those threatenings as
really as he does ; but we do not believe that they mean
endless punishment. We believe that God is angry with
the wicked every day ; we believe that His government is
constantly against them. We believe this a great deal
more thoroughly than he does, or any of his school : they
have a thousand contrivances by which the sinner may
escape the anger and the punishments of God — while we
have none.
The other evening I stated that, if my brother were
anxious to present those terrible proofs of endless torments, I
should be too happy to meet him, and show (as I think I can)
that there is not a single text in the whole Bible which teaches
any such tremendous sentiment. I say the same again
to-night. Any time and place that will suit his convenience
will suit mine. Let us go through this ground carefully ;
let us take those passages, one after another ; and if 1 can
not show that he is guilty of the same offence whereof he
charges me — putting passages ingeniously together that
have no business being together, garbling passages, to make
out a doctrine — then I will be very much mistaken indeed,
and he will have done what any other teacher of the doc
trine of endless misery has ever failed to do.
He says he wonders I did not stumble worse than I did
in a certain passage. The apostle says, " Avenge not your
selves, but rather give place to wrath, tor vengeance is mine,
saith the Lord ; I will repay." I think I do not go too far

198 REV. MR. SAWYER.
in saying, that ni}- brother misapprehends the whole mean
ing of this passage. Why did not God allow His own child
ren to avenge themselves 1 Just for this reason — because
they were apt to overstep the line of duty ; to allow hate,
anger, vengeance, malice, to come in and disturb the proper
ends of justice ; and therefore he says to men, " Avenge
not yourselves ; vengeance is mine, and I will mete it out ;
I will take care of that." And, for my part, I would
greatly prefer taking the amount of punishment that God
would deem it right to inflict on me, than the amount which
my enemies would award me. Like David of old, I cry,
" Let me fall into the hands of God, not of men." My
brother thinks God would do this duty because He could do
it worse than men ; they could only torment in this life,
but He could torture throughout eternity, and therefore He
takes the whole thing into His own hands. But, clearly,
this is a total perversion of the doctrine ; for the apostle
goes on to say, " If thine enemy hunger, feed him ; if he
thirst, give him to drink." Does he not see that this was
acting directly in the face of God, and His moral govern
ment ? Cannot my brother see that God may be just, and
yet be good ? Can he not see that He can punish the sin
ner and yet maintain His mercy ? The Psalmist tells us,
" His mercy endureth for ever ;" — for ever ! And yet my
brother talks of God's mercy wearing out, and yielding to
vengeance ! Is that in the bible ? Is that the doctrine of
Christ? Is that the doctrine of the Church of God ? If
that be so, why should nyt men carry out the similitude,
and practise goodness and mercy for a little while, and then
give them over, and put vengeance in their place, and burn
their enemies, as John Calvin did ? Why not persecute
them, and put them to death in every manner, and the
worse manner the better, in order to be like God ? The
more the torments, the greater the torture, the closer the

REV. MR. SAWYER. 199
resemblance to God ! If God be such a being, as this
belief represents him, what should not this universe be ? 
what should not His children be ? How could they be else
than torturers of their fellow creatures, in order to be
imitators of their God — in order to resemble the Great
Being whom they served, and whose name they should
labor so much to honor and glorify ? My brother tells
the Universalists that their God is a different God from his.
I acknowledge it — oh, with what joy ! for the Universalist's
God is a God of justice, of truth, of mercy, and of love ;
and His justice, His truth, His mercy, His love, come not
to an end ; they pervade the world, they fill the universe ;
they never separate, never part company from Him ; and
He is the same yesterday, to-day, and for ever. If He be
not, wherefore ? But my brother thinks that I have taken
it into my head that God must be just such a being as I
am ; that 1 will not have any God except one just to suit
me ; and that that is the great fault of Universalists. He
goes to work more thoroughly ; it makes no difference to
him what sort of a God his is ; even one of infinite malignity.
He says He is not this, but a being that will place his own
children in endless fire, and hold them "there — (although
they pray earnestly for annihilation) — for the purpose of
torturing them throughout eternity. But, in. heaven's name,
what shall we call this, if not malignity ? Tell me what
would malice be, if this be not malice ? Tell me what the
devil himself could contrive, or conceive, more worthy of
his nature ? Put that poor wretch into the hands of the
devil himself; give him infinite power and wisdom ; bid
him do his worst ; and he cannot do worse than this ; and
yet that is the God whom my brother pretends to worship ;
the God whom he will serve through thick and thin !
" Thou thoughtest I was altogether such an one as thyself;"
— that applies to my brother's case a hundred times better
8

200 REV. MR. SAWYER.
than to mine. I am sorry to say I am not like my God ;
my God is infinitely better than I am ; but I hope my
brother is better than his God. I am required to be like
my God ; to practise the same love, mercy, forgiveness,
that He does, even to seventy times seven ; as He that sits
on the throne of the universe is represented by the Saviour
as doing. But we are, none of us, all that ; we are very
far short of being His children in all respects.
We have had the texts, " Kiss the Son, lest He be angry
and ye perish ;" and, " Thou shalt break them with a rod
of iron, thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's
vessel." Does he not know that the Redeemer's kingdom
goeth on, dashing in pieces the kingdom of His world ?
altering them to a nearer and nearer approach to a divine
form ? That work will go on till it is brought to the con
clusion, and He himself be emperor over all. 1 believe all
that ; but not in the sense of sending men to hell. Then
we had the text about Sodom and Gomorrah, and their
suffering in eternal fire ; and their having suffered for two
thousand years at the time the text was written, added to
which, there are now two thousand years more. But, does
not my brother know, that there is scarcely a respectable
Commentator of the orthodox church who takes that view ?
Sodom and Gomorrah were set forth as an example in their
terrible destruction, — not in the world to come, but here :
that paradigma was presented as of what they were to the
eyes of man in this world.
Next we have this, " If the righteous scarcely be saved,
where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear ?" But the
Commentators explain this, " If those who were Christians
in the time of the trouble then drawing nigh, shall scarcely
be saved in the destruction ofthe Jewish state, what should
become of those who remained the enemies of God ?" The
Commentators tell us more : this passage was quoted from

REV. MR. WESCOTT. 201
the Old Testament, where it is said, — "The righteous
shall be recompensed in the earth ; much more the wicked
and the sinner." " If there be no danger of eternal damna
tion, why did Christ threaten it ?" asks my brother. There
was that damnation which He threatened, but not in the
sense of " endless." He knows that term is ambiguous, as
employed in the bible. Israel was called everlasting ; the
temple was called everlasting ; the priesthood was called
everlasting. Were they everlasting ? Here the term is
applied to punishment; does it follow that that must be
endless ? No ; the meaning is long-continuance. So, the
punishment into which the children of Israel fell, and where
they now continue, is called endless in the Old and New
Testament. Rev. Mr. Wescott. — In all my quotations of scripture I
give you the book, the chapter, and the verse. I ask but
one favor, — just that you will take and read the passage for
yourselves ; and if you find me misapplying a solitary
verse of scripture, then I leave it with you to accuse me of
duplicity. " My opponent," says my friend, alluding to
me, " can see nothing in the scriptures but future punish
ment, or damnation." Oh, yes ! I can. I have, for these
last seven evenings, told you three times as much about
the giace of Christ, the sufferings of the Saviour, the invi
tations of mercy, as I have about future punishment or
damnation. Both, I have told you, are there. You may
escape the one, by flying to the other. But I advise you to
seek the road to heaven, that leads by Christ through Cal
vary, instead of that which leads through purgatory or
through hell. That is the way of life to which you are
invited. My brother says that he knows a hundred times
more about those texts ; that is, he is a hundred times
more familiar with them than we can possibly be. Then I

202 REV. MR. WESCOTT.
am astonished at his last half hour's speech — to say that
God could not have anger, could not execute vengeance ! —
I am astonished ; and if he did not mean to give that im
pression, I ask your candid, unbiassed judgment, what he
did mean. I quoted these texts of scripture that you might
see that wliile God, in the bible, hangs out the banner of
mercy and love, He also, sometimes, threatens judgment
upon those who refuse to hearken to the call of mercy.
" We believe all these threatenings, but not in the sense in
which my opponent does," said he. He says also, that we
have a thousand contrivances, by which sinners may escape
punishment." But no, my friends, there is but one, — the
atoning sacrifice of Jesus ! The atoning sacrifice of Jesus
is the only way of escaping for any man that ever sins,
and that is an efficient way. He says that that expression
in Romans is entirely misapprehended by me, and then
goes on and gives a precise interpretation of it, excepting
one single word. He says God requires them not to
execute vengeance, because He could do it "worse" than
they could : I said " better" not worse, and that is all the
difference. God says, " Execute not vengeance yourselves,
because I can do it better than you can ;" — that is the
meaning. I have read the 12th chapter of Romans more than once in
my life : read it, my friends, when you go home ; you will
find the passage near the close of the chapter ; read it for
yourselves, and ask yourselves what the apostle means.
My brother quotes the passage from the Psalmist, which
says that mercy endureth forever, and then asks — Does
God's mercy ever cease following the sinner? I answer,
most emphatically, Yes ! for He declares it Himself, — " I
will love them no more forever." He declares it in a
passage I already referred to, Psalms 2 : 12,— "Kiss the
Son, lest he be angry and ye perish from the way." He

KIlV. MR. WESCOTT. 203
teaches it in the parable of the barren fig-tree, in the 13th
chapter of Luke. He teaches it in almost every passage of
the Scripture — that we may pursue a course of sin til1 His
mercy ceases to follow us — then my brother asks, " Will
God put his own children into hell, and confine them there
forever ?" I answer, emphatically, — " No, no !" and it will
be recollected that my brother admitted, the other evening,
that we could not be made the children of God in a spiritual
sense, so as to be heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ,
unless by receiving, and being led by, the Holy Ghost.
Now, he states again, in substance, that the incorrigible and
continued rebel is the child of God ! Not so, my friends.
God, in that Holy Book, calls no unregenerated man his
child, in this sense, which makes him an heir of heaven and
a joint-heir with Jesus Christ. I have asked again and again
for a passage controverting this declaration, but I have ever
asked in vain. Have we not seen that God did confine the
rich man in a place of torment, and kept him there, although
he prayed and prayed for a drop of water, and besought
that Lazarus might go to his father's house, to warn his
brethren who were there ? Now, I ask, whom will you be
lieve — the God of Heaven, or my friend who argues with
me ? Oh, my friends ! let the Word of God rest with
weight and power upon your hearts ! I say again, there is
mercy for every sinner. He would have him come to
Christ and live ; but he that refuses to come must perish,
and perish forever.
Allow me to say that not only is this system of Univer
salism diametrically opposed to the Bible in all its details,
but it is false as matter of fact, sense, and reason. Uni
versalism tells us that in this life only is sin punished. I
allude to modern Universalism, which was embraced by the
great body of Universalists some fifteen years ago, more or
less, in their Convention, in which I believe my respected

204 REV. MR. WESCOTT.
opponent sided with this modern class who rejected all
future punishment; at all events, a large class rejected all
punishment, except in this life. And how is this punish
ment in this life inflicted ? Oh, by mental anguish ! There
fore, if a man commits a sin once a day, he endures a
certain amount of mental anguish ; if he commit it twice a
day, under the same circumstances, he endures twice the
amount of mental anguish ; if he commits it ten times a
day, other circumstances remaining the same, he endures
ten times the amount of mental anguish ! This is according
to the system of Universalism : how is it according to reason
and experience ? Let us take an illustration. A young
man swears once, takes the name of God in vain once, and
then he suffers a certain amount of mental anguish. Well,
he does it again ; and now his anguish shall be doubled,
(other things being equal) to keep even-handed justice.
Suppose he commits the crime ten times a day, then, other
things being equal, he should suffer ten times as much men
tal anguish. And if a hundred times, the anguish of mind
should be increased a hundred-fold. But, is it so? How
are the facts? We ask a young man if he remembers the
first time he ever uttered au oath. He says, — " Yes, I do ;
and then came to my mind the instructions of a pious
mother, the teachings of a godly father ; that profane word
grated on my soul and troubled my conscience." But you
did it again ; you increased the frequency of the act ; you
got to be so that you could do it ten times a day ; and how
was it then ? Was the anguish increased ? " Oh, then I
could swear, and swear without thinking anything about it."
Where, now, is the mental anguish ? Is this mental anguish
proportional to the enormity of the offence ? Rather, it is
diminished ! What sent Gibbs, the murderer, who suffered
the penalty of his crimes by being hung on your island ?
Why, he said, " The first man I murdered I hardly slept a

REV. MR. WESCOTT. 205
wink for twenty-four hours afterwards; I shuddered at
every sound; I trembled at my own thoughts; but I did
not think so much of it the second time; and still less the
third ; until soon I could revel in human blood and human
butchery." How about your proportion of mental anguish
to crime in that case ? " Yes," says the objector ; " but
when a man comes to death, he suffers enough in a few
hours to stand against all his crimes."
See the assassin, waylaying his victim in the forest ; he
means to murder and rob him ; but, instead of that, the
intended victim perceives him in time, fires, sends a bullet
into his forehead, and down he drops, dead in an instant of
time. With murder in his heart, he dies, having no time
for anguish, yet he goes straightway to realms of endless
life and joy ! Does he, indeed ? It cannot be, for he
rejected Christ, and where is his punishment ? Where is
his turning to Jesus to obtain peace? And we are told
that, unless he does obtain it, he cannot escape punishment !
Oh ! Universalism is not only opposed to God's Sacred
Word, but it clashes with all the facts in the history of man;
it contravenes even common sense itself. I therefore cannot
be a Universalist.
My friend has given me a challenge to meet him, at some
future time, to discuss the question of endless punishment.
I never give a challenge ; I never decline one. I accept it.
* It is understood that the discussion here proposed and accepted,
will take place in September next, (1854,) of which due notice will be
givea

EIGHTH EVENING.
Rev. Mr. Moore, of Newark, having offered prayer :
Rev Dr. Sawyer said : We have great occasion, cer
tainly, to be gratified with the continued attendance on this
discussion, and especially by the presence of such an audience
as this on such a stormy evening It shows how deep an
interest you take in the great question which is being agita
ted — one that can never be addressed to a human heart
without meeting a ready and earnest response. Last even
ing my opponent drew a very touching and humorous pic
ture of Universalism, as settled at some convention, at
which he thinks I was present and assisting, about fifteen
years ago. My friend, though a mortal enemy of poetry,
is, after all, I think, somewhat of a poet himself, for this
whole representation of his is a specimen of as sheer a fic
tion as ever poet's brain conceived, no such convention hav
ing been held, and no such doctrine established ; and if it
had been, I am sure I should not have been on the affirmative
part of it. My views, I suppose, have transpired to your
understandings, with respect to that matter. I am not a
Calvinist, by any means ; I think whatever of the leaven
of Calvinism might once have been in me has all been
worked out. We have some among us, in a denomination
made up, to a very considerable extent, of individuals
brought from every sect and party in the United States, who

REV. MR. SAWYER. 207
have brought with them their old theoretic philosophy, and
the influence of their modes of faith, and the feelings they
formerly entertained. Such men, by not an unnatural pro
cess, are very apt to look upon this life as the only scene of
moral action. It is precisely what our orthodox friends do
when they refuse to regard the future as holding any imme
diate moral relatioirio the present. There we are no lon
ger moral beings ; at least we have no moral capacity — we
cannot act freely as we do here. My opponent still insists
that the bible teaches, in almost every page, that God's
mercy will cease, and that, I infer, at no very distant day.
I have only to say, in reply, that, if it be so, the scripture
contradicts itself, by representing God as changeable, when
we are assured by the same scripture, that there is neither
variableness nor the shadow of turning in him, by giving
the lie direct to a great many passages, which, in the most
direct terms, say that his mercy endureth forever. The pas
sage which my brother quoted last evening, with such an
air of triumph, and, I must say, of apparent satisfaction —
" I will love them no more forever"- — is not exactly in the
bible ; at least the word " forever" does not happen to be
there. It was put there by my brother, in the heat of argu
ment, for the purpose of making the passage mean what he
supposed it to mean. The prophet Hosea was speaking of
Ephraim ; and then we have these words — " All their wick
edness is in Gilgal ; for there I hated them." Gilgal was
the place where they worshipped their false gods or idols.
I wonder my brother did not quote that too ; there God
hated them. "For the wickedness of their doings I will
drive them out of mine house ; I will love them no more ;
all their princes are revolters. Ephraim is smitten ; their
root is dried up, they shall bear no fruit ; yea, though they
bring forth yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of the
womb. My God will cast them away because they did

208 REV. MR. SAWYER.
not hearken unto him ; and they shall be wanderers among
the nations." Wanderers among the nations ! That is the
meaning of the passage ; it has no reference whatever to the
future world ; all its threatenings relate to this, and it has no
application whatever to the subject for which my brother in
troduced it. In the last chapter of the same prophet, speak
ing ofthe same, he says : — "I will heal their backsliding; I
will love them freely, for mine anger is turned away from
him." And " Ephraim shall say — what have I to do any
more with idols ?" If we take the bible first in its literal
sense, we make out that God repents, changes his modes of
feeling and action every day ; sometimes loves men, some
times hates them, sometimes is good to them, sometimes
curses them, sometimes extends mercy to them, and some
times punishment. Is there no method by which to under
stand these things ? Are we to look on God as we do on
man, as a being of a thousand conflicting passions, betimes
of love and mercy, and again of hate and cruelty ? I pity
the theology that is obliged to take the bible thus in its lit
eral sense, without a single particle of reason about it.
My brother, you will remember, presented to us the case
of an 'assassin, a very difficult case for salvation, but one
which Universalism would, he thought, provide for speedily
enough. He supposes him lying in wait for his victim ;
being suddenly struck with a musket-ball, he falls dead ;
and then, without any repentance, without any preparation
to fit him for a better life, he says, according to Univer
salism, he takes his flight directly to heaven. Now, suppose
this man, instead of having been perceived, and shot, had
committed the murder, been arrested, gone through the
process ofthe law, been convicted, sentenced, and visited by
our evangelical clergy, — he then would have swung from
the gallows directly into heaven ; while, in all probability,
his victim, whom he had sent out of this world unprepared

REV. MR. SAWYER. 209
and unrepented, would have gone at once into the flames
of endless hell ; and the murderer would then sit peaceably
in heaven, looking down upon the lost soul, and joyfully
contemplating the result of his act throughout all eternity !
I think that, under the government of an infinitely wise and
good God, things are managed a little better than this, after
all. God recompenses to every man according to his
works ; he that doeth wrong shall receive according to the
wrong he has done, for with God there is no respect of
persons. We are about to draw our arguments to a conclusion this
evening ; and it naturally comes before us to inquire what
has been done, or what we have been doing, during this
protracted debate. It has been my duty and object to pre
sent, as far as time and circumstances have allowed, as many
proofs as I could of the great fact that God is the Saviour of all
men. I have shown that God is infinitely wise, good, and pow
erful, and that He is also, and always, our Father. My
brother insists, that this last point has not been made out ;
but the argument is before you. I do not know what
proof is wanting of the fact. I showed that God created
us in His own image ; that we are His offspring according
to the declaration of inspiration ; that there is One God and
Father of all, who is above all, who has taught all men to
pray to Him, saying, " Our Father !" I have shown that
all men are required to love God as a father, to serve Him,
and obey Him, and resemble Him in temper and spirit.
What more do you need to prove that we are God's child
ren in a certain sense, and a very important sense, as
furnishing the ground of all His love, and all His grace
towards us ? I showed that God could have had but one
great ultimate object in view in the creation of the human
family, that is, that they should become holy and happy,
so (as the Catechism has it) as to glorify and enjoy Him

210 REV. MR. SAWYER.
for ever. 1 have shown that man is a moral being, with
powers enabling him to obey, and also to disobey, and
therefore liable to sin, and a proper subject of moral govern
ment, and that, as a consequence, he is rewarded or punished
according to his works. I have shown that the great end
proposed by God in the creation of man, never could be,
and never has been, abandoned by Him ; that we cannot
conceive how, or why, it shall, or could, be abandoned ;
that it has never been lost sight of, but has been steadily
and successfully pursued, and will continue to be so, until,
at last, it is fairly and fully accomplished. In proof of
those great propositions, I have shown that, in the Garden
of Eden, immediately after our parents first sinned, God
freely promised universal deliverance in the threatening
which He pronounced on the tempter, — namely, that the
seed of the woman, (which we recognize as Christ,) was to
bruise the head of the serpent, " to crush it," as commen
tators say ; and the crushing of the serpent's head occasions
its death or destruction. We are also taught, in the New
Testament, that since " the children were partakers of
flesh and blood, Christ took part of the same, that He
might destroy death and him that has the power of death —
that is, the devil." This shows that the serpent, or devil,
however powerful he may be, is ultimately to be destroyed
by the power of Christ. That is true, if the bible is true.
That is true ; and my brother has not denied it, and dare
not deny it. I have shown that God made promises to the
patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, that in them and
their seed, (which the apostle tells us, by inspiration, is
Christ,) all the nations, families, tongues, and kindred ofthe
earth shall be blessed. All the reply to this has been, that
some ofthe nations will be blessed in Christ, — but why did
not the inspired writers say " some," if they meant it ?
Why use such a strong, universal phrase, to express their

REV. MR. SAWYER. 211
meaning, if they had only a partial meaning ? Besides, on
the theory of orthodoxy it is not true that some of all
nations and families shall be blessed in Christ, because
many nations there have been which have sprung up,
and perished, without any knowledge of the Saviour or
of the true God ; but, by that theory, they are lost : — how
then, could it be said, that all nations are to be blessed in
Him ? I pursued the proofs of this great doctrine as they
lie scattered along over the course of revelation ; and
especially as they present themselves to us in the Old
Testament. We there found numerous passages in which
the great doctrine of universal salvation through Jesus Christ
is clearly taught. We there learn that God has made pro
vision for all men, that He has invited all men to partake,
that He has given an assurance that all shall come and
worship before Him, and glorify His name. Yes, God
goes still further ; He gives us one of His strongest decla
rations, an assurance of His own, granted us on His oath,
that all men shall come to Him, and partake of His truth
and love. " Look unto me and be ye saved, all the ends
of the earth, for I am God, and there is none else. I have
sworn by Myself, the word has gone out of my mouth in
righteousness, and shall not return. That unto me every
knee shall bow,, every tongue shall swear ; Surely shall say,
In the Lord have I righteousness and strength ; even to
Him shall men come, and all that are incensed against Him
shall be ashamed." That little word, " ashamed," is all
that my brother finds to comfort him in this strong passage,
and on that little word he predicts eternal damnation !
Does he not know that every body who does wrong, and is
brought to see it, is ashamed ? Who, that comes to know,
to understand God, shall not be ashamed of his sin — that
he ever could have been incensed against him ?
Entering on the New Testament, we come, as it were,

212 REV. MR. SAWYER.
not to a new revelation, but a clearer light and a more dis
tinctive field ; the same truth shines forth more clearly and
more conclusively. Before the birth of the Saviour, an
angel announces to Joseph that he shall call His name Jesus
— (that is healer, or Saviour,) — simply because he would
save his people from their sins ; not from hell, not from the
justice of God, not from anything they deserved, but from
their sins. When He was born, an angel announced to the
shepherds — " Fear not ; for behold, I bring you good tidings
of great joy, which shall be to all people : for unto you is
born this day, in the city of David, a Saviour who is Christ
the Lord." It was to "all people." And then a multitude
of the heavenly host was suddenly with the angel singing
that transcendent anthem — " Glory to God in the highest, and
on earth peace, good will toward men." If the New Tes
tament is to be believed, God loves the whole world ; He
wills the salvation of all men; He has purposed their salva
tion; and, in the accomplishment of that divine purpose,
sent forth his son, Jesus Christ, to affect it, to bring it about.
These facts stand out on the face of the New Testament
just as clearly as the sun stands in the sky at noonday.
They can no more be denied than our existence, if we be
lieve the New Testament. Christ has come ; has labored,
suffered, and tasted death for every man ; He has given
himself a ransom for all, a propitiation for our sins, and not
for ours only, but for the sins of the whole world — these are
truths, if there are any in Revelation ; if they be not true,
then, the whole Bible may be regarded as a tissue of decep
tions and falsehoods. Christ is the Lord of all ; he is the
Saviour of all ; and if he be the Saviour of the world, how
can it happen that a large part of it, or any part of it, shall
not be saved by Him ? I showed that we are told that
Christ is the light ofthe world ; the light that lighteth every
man that cometh into the world ; that he brought life, and

REV. MR. SAWYER. 213
the water of life, and the bread of God, unto all men ; that
he came down to give life to the world. He is " the good
shepherd that giveth his life for the sheep;" who, if ever
one be lost, goes after him till he be found, and then bringeth
him home rejoicing. I showed that, ultimately, there would
be one fold and one shepherd — Jesus Christ, tho great shep
herd of one fold. I showed what Jesus Christ taught before
his arrest and crucifixion, with all the solemnities of that
scene around him, and looking forward to the last hour of
his natural life — when he said — " Now is the judgment of
this world, now shall the prince of this world be cast out,
and I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto
me." What language can be used to express universal sal
vation if this does not ? How can Christ draw all men to
him, if not tc save them? I have shown that, as by one
man's disobedience (that is, Adam's), many are made sin
ners ; so, by the obedience of one (that is, Jesus Christ),
the same many are to be made righteous. My brother tells
us this making righteous, relates only to the sin of Adam.
He does not know what it relates to. I think whatever it
teaches it teaches in the broadest sense of universalism.
Whatever were the effects of our connection with Adam,
were to be done away by our connection with Jesus Christ ;
nay more — for we also read that " where sin abounded
grace did much more abound." I showed that God included
the Jews and Gentiles into one fold, to have mercy on all,
carrying forward His scheme after His own fashion, and
according to His infinite wisdom. I have shown that the
grace of God, that bringeth salvation to all men, hath power
to teach us the principles of a divine morality, to deny ungod
liness, and worldly lusts; to live soberly, righteously, and
Godly in this present world. Finally, I have endeavored, at
least, to show that, at last, in the name of Jesus, every knee
shall bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things

214 REV. MR. SAWYER.
under the earth ; and that every tongue shall confess that
He is Lord, to the glory of God the Father ; and when that
time shall arrive, there shall be no more sinners in the uni
verse. I have shown, also, that, in the grand sequel, when
the end shall have been attained, and ail things submitted
to Christ — Christ shall become subject to God the Father,
and God be all in all.
Look, my friends, at those various declarations, scattered
up and down throughout the gospel — everywhere standing
in intimate relation with the character and purpose of God
— making, as it were, the final issue of the plan devised in
the beginning — and which God has ever steadily and closely
pursued and is still pursuing. Do you not see a chain of
argument and facts — a chain so well compacted, and so
strong, that no sophistry and no unbelief can break it?
And how has this been answered ? It is not for me to
judge — you have heard all that has been said upon the
subject. My brother has not dwelt much on this argument;
he has relied chiefly on what he regards as counter-tes
timony ; his whole method of procedure is, not to meet
my argument, but to try to establish the doctrine of endless
punishment, which he would have done, indeed, if Univer
salism were false ; he would have done what he proposed,
if he could have done it ; but you see two such doctrines
cannot stand together in the Bible. If that which I have
labored to establish be true, his must, most assuredly, be
false ; and if his be true, mine must, perforce, fall to the
ground. You will perceive the force of this remark, which
is entitled to great consideration. On my brother's theory,
the passages which I quoted and on which I rely, have no
sequence at all ; he empties them of all power and meaning.
Orthodox men never regard them at all — they pass them
by as if they were not there. But, to those which he quotes,
Universalists give a meaning, and a great meaning, too, —

REV. MR. SAWYER. 215
really a deeper and more consistent meaning than the
orthodox give them ; for we hold that God actually will
inflict those punishments which He has threatened, (while
they hold no such thing) but in a mannner consistent with
His Doundless grace and love, and which will not interfere
with His great ultimate designs. These passages are true,
in the sense intended by Inspiration, but Universalism is a
truth which stretches beyond, and rises above them all.
My arguments, thus presented, I am willing to leave with
you, commending them to your reflection and your serious
examination. I pray that you may consider this whole
question in the light of the Scriptures. " Search the Scrip
tures " — search them daily — and see if these things be not
so. If my doctrine is not consistent with the teachings of
the Bible, reject it ; if it is consistent, you will receive it;
you will receive it in spite of all the odium that is thrown
around it, in spite of all the opposition to which it has been
exposed for centuries. You will receive it, love it, cherish
it, and rejoice in it, as the great idea of God, unfolding His
character, and making known His glorious attributes. I
could adduce to you more testimony of the same kind as
that to which I before called your attention, but, perhaps, it
is not necessary. I do not say the Bible is full of it ; I do
not (as my brother does of his) tell you that it is to be
found on every page ; but I do find a golden chain running
through the whole sacred volume, and teaching this doctrine
with such clearness, with such variety of proofs, such irre
fragable force, that it seems to me no power on earth can
dissolve it.
I would refer to one fact more, to which I have not dis
tinctly .called your attention. In reply to the Sadducees,
who disbelieved the resurrection, our Saviour said, " Ye do
err, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God ; for
they who are accounted worthy to attain that world and the

216 REV. MR, WESCOTT.
resurrection of the dead, neither marry nor are given in mar
riage, neither can they die any more ; for they are equal unto
the angels and are the children of God, being children of the
resurrection." If we ask how many are worthy of this great
gift, the apostle Paul shall answer, "As in Adam all die, even
so in Christ shall all be made alive." In the 15th chapter,
First Corinthians, the apostle clearly shows his views : death
was to be swallowed up in victory. " Oh, death, where is thy
sting 1 Oh, grave," (oh, death,) " where is thy victory ?"
Thus is victory given through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Rev. Mr. Wescott. — Allow me here to acknowledge the
general courtesy and gentlemanly deportment of my oppo
nent, throughout this discussion, for the last seven evenings,
and during this evening ; and although our views of doctrine
clash greatly, yet I do not believe there is any interruption,
but rather an increase, of kindly feelings between us person
ally. For Universalists I have respect and affection ; I know
many of them and esteem them as my personal friends ;
but for their doctrine I have neither respect or affection —
that is, for so much of it as distinguishes them from other
denominations. I thank my brother for calling my attention
to one text — for there is one which he has quoted which
seems to have a reference to the question under discussion,
which I have not answered ; the only one, to my recollec
tion, which I have not answered. I am not able to repeat
it, perhaps he can assist me to it,
[Dr. Sawyer seemed to the Reporter to be unable.]
The sentiment of the text is that Christ was revealed to
destroy death and him that hath the power of death — that is,
the devil. Be assured I have not neglected to answer this
from design, but merely because it had escaped my memo
ry. My brother knows well that the phrase "destroy"
cannot be used in its ordinary primary meaning. He

REV. MR. WESCOTT. 217
no more believes that the devil will be destroyed than I be
lieve it — in the sense he attached to that word. He believes
that he will ultimately become one of the blessed, and
therefore holy and happy — while I believe that he will re
main miserable forever. As to the word " destroyed," I sup
pose there is no difference of opinion. I suppose he will
admit its meaning here, namely, " to release or unclasp ;"
and this Christ was to do with respect to the devil — by his
glorious resurrection from the grave, and as in Adam all
die — so in Christ shall all live. Thus, also, the devil
must unclasp his grasp on those who cry to Christ for help.
The strong man keepeth his house, and his goods are in
peace ; but when a stronger cometh on him, he taketh from
him, &c. The simple meaning is that the hold must be un
clasped which Satan has on the soul of him who yields him
self a willing subject to Jesus. So much the text means —
no more and no less. Whatever it makes for the final sal
vation of all men — it does make.
My brother charges me with saying that God's mercy
will cease, and that, in saying so, I contradict the attributes
of Jehovah — of Jehovah who is unchangeable and immuta
ble. Yet you cannot help observing that, in less than one
minute, in quoting the text — " I will love them no more,"
(he quotes the text to charge me with adding the word
" forever") he admits that God may cease to love or follow
the sinner with offers of salvation. Now I did not quote
this text to prove endless punishment, but in answer to an
objection of his, that the sinner could not go where God's
love to him would not follow him. I quoted this to prove,
in the language of Jehovah, that he would " love him no
more ;" and I think it is quite enough to prove that ; I am
sure it answers as well for that argument without adding
"forever" as with it, for I did not, I say again, adduce it in
reference to endless punishment ; but simply to show that
10

218 REV. MR. WESCOTT.
a sinner may prosecute his rebellion until God's mercy
ceases to follow him. I think it answers that purpose. I
shall give up in despair in regard to one thing — namely,
ascertaining what are my opponent's views in regard to fu
ture punishment, whether there be any for the wicked, or
not. Last night I thought I could provoke him into an ex
planation on this point, but I will give it up — I don't think
I shall try it even at our next discussion ; I will give it up
— I will give it up ! I really thought, last night, when
making my closing remarks, that I would get an answer
this evening. I had made up my mind for a pretty good
lashing this evening, but I see the gentleman prevails.
He commences by reviewing what he has attempted to
prove — that we all ought to pray, to love God, and serve
him — to which I certainly agree. Then he commences
again — the promises of Jehovah commenced in the garden
of Eden ; they run down, through Abraham and the prophets,
until they get into the New Testament — wherein are an
nounced the good tidings of salvation offered to the entire
world — all of which we most heartily accord with and agree
to. It is true there is a point on which we differ ; where it
is said that the gospel of Jesus Christ is sent to all nations.
My brother understands this saying as absolutely embracing
every individual of the human family. I have explained,
from the apostle's own words, last night, that he uses the
words " world," and " all nations," simply to signify
" the Gentiles" — quite interchangeably with this last expres
sion. This is the distinction. The Jewish dispensation was
confined simply to the Jews ; the gospel was intended to go
beyond them ; it was to go to " the nations of the earth ;"
and such is the meaning of this promise. But when he says
all the nations of the earth have not been blessed, I must
disagree with him there again. I believe that the whole
world, and every individual that has lived in the world, has

REV. MR. WESCOTT. 219
been blessed by the gospel and mediatorial office of Jesus
Christ. My brother contends that strict justice must take
place. I think he will agree that strict justice would consist
in the execution of punishment on criminals the very instant
that their offences are committed. Every infant that ever
was born is indebted to Jesus Christ in his mediatorial office,
for that it was spared from the punishment due for the
transgression of Adam in the garden of Eden. The sinner,
the hour after his transgression is committed, is indebted to
this mediatorial office of our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ,
for that he is not then handed over to wrath. Individuals,
families, nations, continents, the world, are blessed in this
Divine office. We have for this view the authority of the
apostle — " The long forbearance of God is salvation." This
blessing, then, is sent to the whole world — -to every indi
vidual ; but so far as the saving power of the gospel is con
cerned, the phrases — "all the world," " all nations," "all
people" — simply mean that the gospel is for the world at
large, instead ofthe Jewish nation, to whom the Jewish dis
pensation was confined. The gospel of Jesus Christ is
preached to every man as an individual; he, personally and
for himself, is to embrace faith in Christ and be saved, or
to reject faith in Christ, and be lost. Thus it is in Ro
mans xi., so largely quoted from by my opponent on the
night before last, so adroitly turned to his view out of the
proper light, but restored to its due place by our examina
tion of last night, when it was made plain that there was no
application of the meaning to masses, but only to individu
als — with this one exception, namely : the case of infants
dying before having arrived at years of understanding, for
the atonement of Christ has swept away the effects of
Adam's transgression beyond the grave.
My brother gives again this passage — " Look unto me
and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth." But we after-

220 REV. MK. WESCOTT.
wards learn that those " who are incensed against him shall
be ashamed." I connect this, as most commentators do,
with the 16th verse, which says they shall be " ashamed,"
and also " confounded," and '' go to confusion" — that is, be
overthrown and scattered. In this connection it does not
make much for my opponent. He tells us Christ saves no
man from deserved punishment. What, then, was his object
in entering the world ? " Oh ! to announce God's love !"
Could not God have accomplished his end at a cheaper rate
than by giving his only Son, to pass through so much hu
miliation, degradation, and suffering ? What was the neces
sity for His inexpressible agonies — for his death on the tree
of the Cross ? An angel could have made the announce
ment. Prophets had made it ages before. It was repeated
and repeated — uttered and re-uttered, the love of God for
men ! If Jesus Christ did not come to save men from that
from which they could not be saved by the Law of Moses,
I ask, for what did He come ? " We are justified by Christ
from all things from which we could not be justified by the
Law of Moses." This is the declaration of the Scripture,
and yet my brother tells us that Jesus Christ saved no one
from punishment ! — What, then, does giving a pardon mean ?
I suppose he will say, turning a man away from his sin.
Suppose a man were in the state prison for a crime, and
that a friend petitioned for his pardon, to Governor Sey
mour, and that the Governor answered — " I will pardon
him" — what would the petitioner understand ? What news
would he bring to the man in prison ? Would he tell
him that the Governor meant to turn him away from his
sin, or that he absolutely meant to give him his pardon and
release him ? Must we alter the vocabulary of the English
language to prove universalism?
He says I quoted a long list of passages to prove endless
punishment; and that both doctrines (that is, eternal sal-

REV. MR. WESCOTT.  221
vation and endless misery), could not be contained in the
Scriptures of Divine Truth. That is certainly true : if the
one be there, the other is not ! He then charges us with
throwing away all the passages of Scripture which he relies
on. No, verily ! we do not. What do his passages mean ?
Simply this ; — God, in the plentitude of his love and mercy,
gave the world Christ as a fountain of life to every human
soul. Christ came into the world, and offered his atone
ment, wide as the human family, deep as the depravity of
the human heart, high as heaven ! Wafted on the wings of
Love Divine,the message of the Gospel comes spreading
over the world, and inviting all men to come to Christ and
be saved. All these passages of Scripture help to make
up that glorious system of salvation, revealed in the scrip
tures. But when invitations are given, compliance on the
part of the invited is demanded. But let me ask, do all
men hearken to this call ? No, verily ! Do all men be
lieve in Christ? No, verily ! We admit all the promises,
all the invitations; but still the world remains in-the dark
ness and bondage of sin — men turn their backs on Christ.
God offers mercy — but they will not receive it. He gives
them a limited time in which to repent — they pay no heed.
Hence comes the wrath and the punishment, which are as
plainly revealed as the endurance and the mercy. Passage
after passage declares this truth aloud. " Seek ye the Lord
while he may be found ; call ye upon him, while he is near."
What means this, if not a limited time within which the Lord
can, without which he cannot, be found ? Thus, we read in
the first Chapter of Proverbs — " I have called and ye re
fused, I have stretched out my hand and no man regarded.
But ye have set at naught all my counsel and would none
of my reproof. I also will laugh at your calamity, I will
mock when your fear cometh. When your fear cometh as
a desolation and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind,

222

REV. MR. WESCOTT.

when distress and anguish cometh upon you ; then shall
they cal! upon me but I will not answer, they shall seek me
early, but they shall not find me." Again, Christ says —
" O that thou hadst known, even thou, in this thy day, the
things which belong to thy peace, but now they are hidden
from thy sight." If these passages, and many more like
them, do not show a limited time for obtaining God's mercy,
I have read my bible very much in vain. Then I showed
from the threats ofthe Divine Word, that in the next place,
those who continually and perseveringly reject mercy, are
given over to endless punishment. We find offers of mercy,
but we find the world spurning them, turning their backs on
them ; and then we find God threatening those who thus
persist, with final and eternal damnation. We have es
tablished this — we have poured passage after passage of
Sacred Scripture upon you ; you have heard them, and un
derstood them. Let me now give you a few more. Having
presented such things as we attempted to prove, and having
presented our proofs, let us now present additional proof.
The first I refer to is the lxxiii. Psalm, Verses 2, 3, 17,
and 18. "But as for me, my feet were almost gone; my
steps had well nigh slipped. For I was envious at the fool
ish, when I saw the prosperity of the wicked. Until I went
into the sanctuary of God, there understood I their end.
Surely thou didst set them in slippery places, and castedst
them down into destruction." David was in danger of be
coming a Universalist once, when he looked abroad, and
saw the wicked prospering as well as the righteous. But,
when he went into the sanctuary of God's wisdom and
justice, he saw their end. Yes, he saw their end — and his
error was corrected.
Again ; the apostle, in addressing his Hebrew brethren,
says, Chap. ii. verse 3 : " How shall we escape if we neg
lect so great salvation ?" 'Tis true, uiy brother has told us

REV. MR. WESCOTT. 223
we shall escape, but how ? That he has not told us ; the
question was too difficult for Paul — he did not attempt to
answer it ; I do not wonder at my brother's leaving it un
answered. Again : we read in Matthew vii. 26, 27 : " And every
one that heareth these sayings of mine and doeth them not,
shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house
upon the sand. And the rain descended, and the floods
came, and the wind blew, and beat upon that house, and it
fell ; and great was the fall of it." If you reject my words,
said Christ, this shall be the result of all your hopes. They
shall be like the house of a man who built on the sand ; but
when the flood rose and the winds and rain came, it was
swept away !
Again ; we read in Matthew xi : 23, 24 : " And thou,
Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shall be brought
down to hell ; for if the mighty works which have been
done in thee had been done in Sodom, it would have re
mained until this day. But I say unto you that it shall be
more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judg
ment than for thee." Here we learn that Sodom had been
suffering for two thousand years, although their day of
judgment was not yet come ! The day of judgment for
Sodom was future, as well as for the inhabitants of Caper
naum. Again : look at Hebrews x : 26, 27, 28, 29 : " For if we
sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of
truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a cer
tain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation
which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised
Moses' law died without mercy under two or three wit
nesses. Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall
he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the
Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant

224 REV. MR. SAWYER.
wherewith he was sacrificed an unholy thing, and hath done
despite unto the Spirit of Grace ?"
What sorer punishment could overtake a man than death
under the law of Moses ? Endless destruction in the future
world, then, must be the punishment here threatened.
Again ; in Matthew xxv. 46 : " And these shall go away
into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into life
eternal." This passage, added to those uttered before by
the language of inspiration, should settle the question for
ever. Taking these with the passages of scripture brought
up in such abundance by my opponent, we believe they
make together a perfect web of Divine Truth, scattered
through the scriptures, teaching that God, in His infinite
mercy, has provided us a way to life in the world to come ;
but at the same lime that He announces this, He also de
clares his threatenings ; if we do not come to Him through
Jesus Christ, by-and-by the hour shall have passed away,
His Spirit shall be withdrawn, and then shall the perverse
be cast down into endless destruction. This is the teaching
of the Bible; and it is so plain that a way -faring man,
though a fool, need not err therein. Oh, that we would all
take the scripture oracles of Divine Truth, given as a guide
in this world as well as to the world to come ; go to them
with an earnest desire to know just what they teach ; with
a determination to do just what they recommend, and to
abstain from all that they forbid ! Then should a new hap
piness, unknown before, come down upon our hearts, and
dwell in them for ever !
Rev. Dr. Sawyer. — The passages of Scripture which my
brother has introduced here, proving, as he thinks, the doc
trine of endless punishment, I shall not undertake to answer
this evening ; because the time will come, by-and-by, ac
cording to our agreement, when we will go into this matter

REV. MR. SAWYER. 225
from the beginning, taking them up, one by one, so as to
see what they mean, and determine whether they have the
strength he seems to imagine. I have read the Bible wrong
if they prove to be so mighty — if they are so convincing.
I shall show to him and you, (if you are so kind as to
attend) that those very passages, almost without exception,
have been interpreted by his own friends and brethren in a
different way from what he interprets them, and what is
fashionable in the popular pulpit of to-day. Learned men
do not always agree with us preachers ; and terms, such as
world, nations, tongues, and all that, are not to be inter
preted too rigidly, but taken in a slow, good-natured sort of
way. I remember a passage in the Revelations where I
think there is a sort of particularity deserving of attention.
St. John says, " And every creature which is in heaven, and
on earth, and under the earth, and such are in the sea and
all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing and honor and
glory and power be unto Him that sitteth on the throne and
unto the Lamb forever."
Where is hell now ? Where are the damned now ?
There is not a soul, an intelligent soul, in the universe,
that does not sit before the throne, and bless and honor
the power and glory of God to eternity. My brother says
Sodom was suffering fire two thousand years, although it
had not yet been brought to judgment. Is that the way
that God governs his world ? I rather think He had passed
a judgment on them long before that. Why, the com
mentators tell us this judgment was their destruction ; they
had been judged, they tell us ; and judgment was yet to
fall on Capernaum — but all this I leave to the great battle
field, by-and-by.
There is one fact I ask you to ponder on — some are igno
rant of it — some understand it — that is : If Universalism is
not true — if it is not the doctrine of the Bible — it ought to
10*

226 REV. MR. SAWYER.
be, for the glory of God, and the happiness of His intelli
gent creatures. It is the only system of faith that helps us
to solve the mysteries of the Divine government, and places
the plan of God in a clear light before our eyes. The
author of such a system as my brother believes, is beyond
the reach of human sympathies and human loves. As Dr.
Channing once said, with respect to these representations of
the Divine Being, "If He be such, I could not love Him if
I would, and I would not if I could." I read a passage, the
other evening, from the celebrated Dr. Barnes of Philadel
phia, wherein he acknowledged that he found himself most
utterly in the dark on this momentous subject. " It is
dark, dark, dark to my soul, and I cannot disguise it." Such
are his words ! Saurin, the eloquent preacher of the doc
trine of endless punishment in France, says, " I sink under
the weight of my subject when I reflect that I, that you,
that we are all threatened with these torments, when I see
in the lukewarmness of my devotions, in the languor of my
love, the least evidence, though it be only presumptive, of
my future misery, I find in the thought a mortal poison,
which renders society tiresome, nourishment insipid, plea
sure disgustful, and life itself a cruel bitter."
Such was the testimony of one of the most eloquent and
devoted preachers of this doctrine. Follow this doctrine
for the last twenty-five or thirty years, and you will find
that, wherever religion, or what is called so, has been most
active and efficient, there insanity has walked in its foot
steps ; wherever a revival occurs, there insanity closely
follows. In the New Testament we read of the progress of
the Gospel, and in no single instance did it drive reason
from the soul ; on the contrary it lifted up reason, and
infused new strength and life into it. I object to this doc
trine also as being most fatal to our reverence for God. It
infuses dark passions, roots out the good sentiments which

REV. MR. SAWYER. 227
God implanted in us, and makes life itself a dark and fear
ful scene ; and, what is remarkable, the better the man, the
more fatal its consequences. In the dark ages, in -those rude
times, when men really loved this doctrine of hell, and
regarded it as a great truth, and shaped their practice by it,
its effect was seen upon them, for they lived a savage life,
really a life of devils in this world of God's ! How is it
now ? John Foster, once one of the most celebrated of my
opponent's Baptist brethren, broke away from it.
Robert Hall, one of the brightest geniuses of England,
came to the same conclusion. Is it not the same over the
whole world ? If this doctrine be true, it ought to be
preached with a tongue of fire ; but, on the contrary, it is
taught so gently, so inefficiently, that thousands and thou
sands, sitting under its ministry, hardly know that it has a
being in the bible. There is a very large class of ministers,
as well as laymen, that are breaking away from this tremen
dous doctrine. A long time ago, Professor Stuart (who was
as familiar as any man in the Union with the sentiments of
the clergy) said that many of the clergy, though connected
with evangelical sects, did not believe it ; and so it is to-day.
In their earlier lives men do not hesitate to accept this be
lief; but as, by years, they become more Christ-like, it
seems to die out of them. At times, Watts seems to gloat
in the very fires of hell ; but, in after life, when he had seen
more of the world, was more maturely acquainted with the
goodness that glows through all the works of God, he
changed his views, and said — -" I cannot think that God will
continue the anguish of this creature, who looks up to him
from hell. I cannot think that the vengeance of God will
continue to torment such a creature ; but rather, I think that
the perfections of God will contrive for him a means of
escape." Such was Dr. Watts in the better days of his life.
So Dr. Edward Young, in his celebrated Night Thoughts

228 REV. MR. SAWYER.
(I quote him, even although he was a poet) uttered' the like
sentiments :
" Wtio, without pain's advice, would e'er be good ?
Who, without death, but would be good in vain J
Pain is to save from pain, all punishment
To make for peace ; and death to save from death :
And second death to guard immortal life !
By the same tenderness, divine ordained,
That planted Eden, and high bloomed for man,
A fairer Eden endless in the skies.
Great Source of good alone, how kind in all !
In vengeance kind ! Pain, death, Gehenna, save."
No later than yesterday, I had an instance that comes under
this head, which touched my heart. A beautiful child of eight
years, and brought up in our faith, with a soul as pure as a flow
er, sickened and died. Almost in the last hours of her life, as
her mother stood by her, she wanted to know, if she died,
whether God would love her. " Yes," said her mother, " God
will love you." " But," said she, " will he not burn me — will
he not burn me in hell ?" " No," said her mother, " where
did you get such a thought ?" She had been at one of our
Orthodox churches, (she told us where) and had gathered that
damning poison into her young soul — that thought which
makes the death-bed terrible — that God would burn her !
If you believe that doctrine, in the name of God preach it
and support it. " What is the wheat to the chaff?" saith
the Lord. But you who do not believe it, I call on you to
set your faces against it ; it has done evil enough; it has
carried blight and sorrow far enough ; let its end come ; let
the peace of God settle once more on the human soul; in
the midst of all our errings and our sufferings, let us be able,
at least, to look up and see God in heaven ! The better the
man, the milder and purer the soul, the more congenial is
our faith to it. Look at those great men who have held it
— Origen, Gregory the Great, Clement of Alexandria, who

REV. MR. WESCOTT. 229
loved this faith and labored to promote it. Look in modern
times at Fenelon, that good bishop of the Catholic Church,
whose gentleness and love formed a halo around him ; he,
Lavatar, Jungstelling, Oberlin, all, living, shone with the
radiance wherewith this faith encompassed them. On the
other hand, men — (not according to their characters as men,
but warped by this dreadful belief) — grow harsh, cold, stern,
forbidding; gloat over images and pictures of torment, un
til they come to feel a kind of love of torment, until they
come to be un-Christ-like, and divested of goodness.
Let us go on our way. I thank my brother, as he has
thanked me, for all his courtesy and kindness. 1 thank my
God for the opportunity enjoyed to bring these opposite
opinions face to face, in the presence of so large and respect
able an audience. I thank you for the patient hearing
which you have given, and for the interest which, I trust,
you have felt on this great subject. Carry it home with
you. Consider it in the light of God's revelation. Treasure
up whatever truth there is in it, and learn to love God more
and your fellow-men better. Try to see that light which God
placed in the world through Jesus Christ ; and prepare
yourselves, not only for sharing the beatitude here of mem
bership with Jesus Christ, but also for that better and more
glorious state which He has revealed for the whole family
of man.
Rev. Mr. Wescott. — We had a passage quoted, in which
ascriptions of praise and thanksgiving were offered to Jesus
Christ from thousands and thousands of every nation
gathered before the throne. Certainly this is a most
precious passage of scripture. I have frequently read it
with delight. But we have here a similar passage, found in
the 21st chapter of the book of Revelations, referring to
the time immediately succeeding the judgment, where it is

230 REV. MR. WESCOTT.
said, " God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes ; and
there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying,
neither shall there be any more pain, for the former things
are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said,
Behold, I will make all things new. And he said unto me,
it is done ; I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the
end. I will give unto him that is athirst, of the fountain of
the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit
all things, and I will be his God, and he shall be my son."
Where have we had a passage indicating universal salvation
more clearly than that ? But now, hearken to the next
verse, " But the fearful, and the unbelieving, and the
abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and
sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars shall have their part
in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone, which is
the second death." This is the second death ! God gives
His declarations of mercy, He also adds His fearful warn
ings. Happy the man, who, while he hears the gracious
promises, will take in connexion the fearful warnings of
Jehovah, and fly to the only refuge provided for guilty
souls, the atonement of Christ Jesus !
In reference to Sodom and Gomorrah, which I said had
been suffering the vengeance of eternal fire during two
thousand years, and yet had not come to their day of
judgment, he asks, " Will the gentleman accuse God of
injustice, in sending to punishment men before they are
judged ?" Oh, no ! It is only Universalists who arraign
God, and call Him unjust. I give ascriptions of praise
and glory to God, let Him do what He will. There
are things which I cannot understand ; — darkness and
clouds are round about Ilim, and yet I shall say, " Jus
tice and judgment are the habitation of His throne." If
there are mysteries which I cannot fathom, I will not
accuse my maker of having the " malignity of the devil."

REV. MR. WESCOTT. 231
I will not arraign him at my bar; but I will say, "Thou,
unsearchable One ! all thy ways and thy judgments are past
finding out;" "Although Thou slay me, yet will I trust
in Thee." That is the language God has taught me;
but these are not the thoughts that Universalism infuses
into the hearts and minds of men. I say Universalism,
not Universalists ; I speak of the system ; not of the men.
Universalism erects its one throne of judgment ; it sum
mons thither the God of heaven for trial, and if the
attributes found in Him, the promises he holds forth,
and the threats he employs, do not accord with the claims
of Universalism ; it ascribes to Him malignity, and spurns
His rule ! Oh ! you, my fellow-travellers to the judgment
seat of Christ, embrace not a system that arraigns the God
of heaven, which draws him to a human bar, lest you fall
beneath His wrath when there is no deliverer near !
What a miserable world we should have, if my brother
were right ; if there were none but Universalists in it !
He says that orthodoxy is filling the world with tears and
anguish ; he also says, it is very feebly preached by its
ministers ; and, again, he says, it is filling the insane
asylums with crazy people !
There is just as much connection in those three sentences
as in the whole system of Universalism, as we have had it
explained for eight evenings. It is all a jumble of various
little fractions of systems, taken and put together. When
he related that affecting scene (it was to me affecting, for he
and I are equally, though of different denominations, often
called on to assist at a dying-bed) describing the little girl
looking at her mother and asking — " shall I suffer ?" I hardly
could think it was at an Orthodox meeting that she learned
to think of future suffering. I rather think she read her
bible, and that even a little child could not fail to perceive
the threatenings which it contains. If I were there, and the

232 REV. MR. WESCOTT.
question which she put was put to me, I would have said —
No, my dear, if you believe in Christ you need have no
fear ; for God so loved the world that he gave his only Son,
that whosoever believed in him might be saved. Yes ; I
would have pointed to Christ, because I know no road to
redemption except through him. If any of you expect to
get to heaven by suffering all that your own sins demand,
you will have a long journey. The purgatory of the Uni
versalists, (if they have one beyond the grave) differs not
materially from that of the Roman Catholics. They would
rather go to purgatory, or even to hell, to atone for their
sins. I prefer the more direct road to Heaven — the road
through Calvary, where Christ preaches pardon to believing
and repentant sinners — pardon sufficient to atone for all
their sins.
My opponent said last evening — (to this I must refer) —
that I ought not to preach the doctrine of endless punish
ment, unless I knew it to be true ; it was such a fearful doc
trine ; but how much more ought he not to preach the doc
trine that all men must inevitably be saved, if he be not
quite sure of it ! 'Tis surely better to warn men of their
danger than to cry perfect safety so long as there is the least
doubt of there being peace and safety. But, with the mass
of scripture presented during the last eight evenings, is there
room for doubt in the heart of any man that God threatens
the sinner ? All punishment, we have been told, is disci
plinary ; that is, intended to reform. We have been told it
is not right to punish a man unless to reform him. If I un
derstand this, we are not to punish an incendiary because he
burns a house, but to try to make him better ; nor a mur
derer, because he has taken human life, but only to try to
reform him ; and, therefore, the magistrate must have no
regard to any interest, except the reformation of the crimi
nal. He is the only one to be pitied and regarded ; and of

EEV. MR. WESCOTT. 233
course, when it appears that all amendment is hopeless, that
there is no chance of improving the malefactor, then we are
to let him go away and burn and murder as much as he
pleases. Ah ! men are sometimes punished for other rea
sons ; they are sometimes shut up in prison to prevent them
from disturbing the community.
Here is this system, my dear friends. It gives a free offer
of eternal life, with the assurance that, in the end, all shall
be brought before the judgment-seat of Christ ; and to those
who reject His offers of eternal life it says — " Of how much
severer punishment shall he be thought worthy who hath
trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the
blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an
unholy thing, and hath done despite to the Spirit of Grace ?"
I say with my opponent, the way to heaven is plain for
the whole human family. There is a sufficiency in the plan
of redemption for all ; I say with him that God has made
man a moral agent, and requires man to serve Him. But I
say, in distinction and opposition to him, if you will not
believe in Christ, and serve God, you will be damned. Not
that we take pleasure in this announcement, but that it is
our duty to give the warning. The difference is wide — very
wide indeed ! May Infinite Wisdom lead you to ponder —
to pause — to reflect — to embrace the truth — and, in the
truth, to live forever.

THE END.

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MORAL ASPECTS OF CITY LIFE.

This volume contains a series of eight brilliant Lectures by
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They are replete with sound, wholesome advice, bearing
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They are brimfurof vigorous, practical thought, eloquently
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They are the best from Mr. Chapin's pen, and we do not
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Every young man, especially, should obtain a copy. — Star
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These eight Lectures forcibly demonstrates the deep thought,
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appliances to reform. — Hingham Journal.
The above work is jfublished by H. LYON, 548 Broadway,
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