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SUBSTANCE OF
ADDITIONAL OBSERVATIONS
Intended to have been delivered
IN THE
HOUSE OF COMMONS,
IN THE
Dtbatt on t%i Petition
OF THE
ROMAN CATHOLICS OF IRELAND,
ON THE 13TH AND 14TH OF MAY, 1805.

THE
SUBSTANCE OF
ADDITIONAL OBSER VA TIO NS
Intended to have been delivered
HOUSE OF COMMONS,
IN THt
SDrijate on tije petition
OF THE
ROMAN CATHOLICS OF IRELAND,
ON THE 13TH AND 14TH OF MAY, 1805.
WITH NOTCH, AND AN APPENDIX, CONTAINING LETTERS FROM DR. TROY,
TITULAR R. C. ARCHBISHOP OF DUBLIN J DR. MOYLAN, TITULAR A. c.
ARCHBISHOP OF CORK J AND DR. MILNER, F.S.A. V.A.; WITH OTHER
POCUMENTS CONNECTED WITH THE OBJECTS OF THE PETITION.,

By Sir J. C. HIPPISLEY, Bart. LL.D. F.R.A.S.
M. P. AND RECORDER OF SUDBURY,
AND A BENCHER OF
THE HONOURABLE SOCIETY OF THE INNER TEMPLE.

" If we were one people with the British nation, the preponderance of
" the Protestant Body in the whole empire would be so great, that all rival -
" ships and jealousies between Protestants and Romanists would cease for
" ever j and it would not be necessary, for the safety of the empire at large,
" to curb Romanists by any exclusive laws whatever." — Dr. Duigcnan's
Letter to Mr. Grattan, page 57. 1798.

Sontion :
PRINTED FOR R. FAULDER, NEW BOND-STREET,
BY J. BRETTEIL,
MARSHALL-STREET, GOLDEN-SOU ARE.

1806 ////,; /",.')>

Mye.5oo
G-T \~\e\e.

SUMMARY.

ADVERTISEMENT.
Occasion ofthe present publication, v. — Substance of
Sir J. H.'s Speech in the House of Commons on the
debate on the Petition, vi— x.

SUBSTANCE, Sic.
The Question, p. 1.  Motive for going into a Com
mittee, ibid.  Sir J. H.'s attention to the present sub
ject, and his Correspondence with Ministers thereon at
a former period, 2.  Contradiction of Dr. Duigenan's
Statements, 4.  Importance of the subject : — Extended
Catholic Population, 6.  Of those bearing arms, 7.
 Particular sources of information, 8.  Alarming
position of Dr. D. Q.  Refutation of this from various
acts of parliament, 10.  Distinction between Civil and
Spiritual Supremacy, ibid.  The former proved to be
exempt from danger, 13.  The same claimed by the
Kirk of Scotland, 14.  -Objections of Dr D. against
the signatures, refuted ; 17.  Testimony of Dr. Moylan
on that subject, 18.  Misrepresentation of the Irish
Oath of 1793, and of the English Oath of 179 1 , 19-  •
Extract from the speech ofthe Bishop of St Asaph, 20.
* — —Real cause of the Revolution, 23.  Misconcep
tion of the Oath of Supremacy, 24.  Calumnies against
Catholics refuted by the acts of the legislature, by the
acknowledgment of Dr. D. himself, 26.—^— Misrepre sentation

VI
sen tat ion of Dr. Troy's Pastoral Address, 28 ; — and of his
titles and conduct, 30.  Mistakes concerning the Pon
tifical and Ordination Oaths, 33.  Bossuet's Expo
sition of Catholic Doctrine, 34.  Preface to, a trans
lation of it, by Dr.Coppinger, 35.  Late addition to the
Catholic Catechism on Civil and Social Duties, 40. 
Explanation of Catholic Doctrine by the late Pope Pius
VI. 43.  Misrepresentation of the Fourth Council of
Lateran, 44 ; — and of the Council of Constance, 47-
The Bull of Pius V. opposed by Catholics, 48.  They
not answerable for the individual conduct of particular
Popes, 49.  Exceptionable Doctrines and Conduct of
eminent Reformers, 50.— —Vindication of Dr. Milner's
Case of Conscience solved, ibid. ; — Occasion of that publi
cation, 52.  Account of Doctor Hussey's Pastoral
Address, 52.  -Public merit of the Catholic Prelates of
Ireland, 54.  Mistakes on the subject of Excommu
nication, 55.  Public utility of theCatholic Hierarchy,
57.  Catholic marriages : Necessity of Legislative
Regulations in regard of them, 59.-  Auricular con
fession : Inconsistency of the objections made to it,
61 j — and to the admission of Catholics to seats in Par
liament, 63.  Catholics calumniated on the score of
Perjury, 65.'  No danger from them to the consti-*
tution, 67.  Mistatement of the Number of Catholics,.
iu the Army and Navy : Facts leading to a knowledge of
their real number, 69.  Hardships to which they are
subject as to the Exercise of their Religion, 70.-  De
clarations and Conduct of the See of Rome itself, with
respect to ihe matteis in question, 73.  Her own ex
position of the Pontifical Oath, 74.  Rules of the
Mission of Benedict XIV. 75. — — Conciliating conduct
of Clement XIII.  Pastoral Address of Dr. Troy in
1793;

vn
1793 ; 76.— Detailed Answer ofthe See of Rome to the
Objections contained in a work called "ThePresent State
ofthe Church of Ireland," 77- — The Pontifical Rescript
of Pius VI. addressed to the Catholic Archbishops of
Ireland, explaining and altering the Oath of Consecra
tion, 82.'  Injustice of charging Catholics with the
tenets of persecution, 84.  Anecdote of particular in
tercourse with the court of Rome, 8.5.  Supplies ob
tained from Rome for the British Navy, 86.  Rome
publicly expresses her detestation of the disturbances
raised in Ireland, 88.  Induced to commit the direc
tion of the British communities at Rome to Superiors
who had sworn allegiance to his Majesty, 89.  The
Cardinal of York concurs in this measure, 91.  Im
portance of securing the Allegiance of Catholics and
cultivating a good understanding with Rome, 92.  •
The hospitality of Pius VI. to a detachment of the 12th
Regiment of Dragoons, which had been refused them by
our Allies, 93.  Extracts of Letters from the Viceroy
of Corsica, and from the Right Hon. Edm. Burke on
these subjects, 94.  Refutation of the Objection drawn
from the Coronation Oath, by the Constitutions of Ca
nada, and by those of Corsica, here quoted, 97 : — and
by the commissions granted to the Catholic Chaplain of
the Clangary Fencibles and to other Priests, 98 .¦ 
Imperfection of the act of 1791 ; 101.  Necessity of
repealing the act of 13 Eliz. c. 2 ; 102.  This act of
no force in Ireland or Scotland, 104.  Regulations
proposed to prevent the Encroachments of the court of
Rome, ibid. — — Bulls and Papal Rescripts to be revised
by the Privy Council, 106.  Schoolmasters, besides
taking the oath, to produce a certificate, 107-  Regu
lations of the. Qallican Church under the ancient Mo
narchy,

V1U

narchy, 108.  Anecdote of Mr. Burke, 10g.  ¦
Eventual danger from the existence of Obsolete Statutes,
110.  Misconceptions as to the difference between
Vicars Apostolic and Ordinary Bishops, 111.  -Reasons
for preferring the Spiritual Government of the latter,
1 13.  Willingness of Rome to concur in the proposed
change, 115.  Proposal of his Majesty's nominating
to Catholic Bishoprics, ibid.  Mr. Burke's arguments
against this proposal, 116.  -The present mode of ap
pointing Catholic Bishops and Deans in Ireland, 117.
 Proposal on this subject, ibid.  Unreasonable
ness of the alarm on the score of Popery, 119.

Opinion of James I. ibid.  The decisions of the Ca
tholic Universities in 1788 : Occasion of them, 121.

Their conclusiveness, 122.  Motives for assenting to
the motion.

CONTENTS to APPENDIX. PAGE
No. I. Letter from Dr. Troy, titular R. C. Archbishop
of Dublin, to Sir J. C. Hippisley, Bart. M. P. ; cou-
tainingStrictures on the printed Speech of the Right
Rev. the Bishop of St. Asaph, on the Catholic
Question ------- ------J
No. 1 1. Letter from Dr. Moylan, titular R. C. Bishop
of Cork, fo Sir J. C. H. on the aforesaid subject 15
No.IIl . Letter from Dr. Troy to Sir J. C. H. con
taining observations on Dr. Duigenan's printed
speech ---------- --20
No. IV. Letter from ditto to ditto, concerning a pam
phlet, intitled Substance of tke Speech of Lord Re-
desdale, in the debate on the Catholic Petition 31
No. V.

IX PASE
No. V. Letter from Dr. Moylan to Sir J. C. H."con-
cerning the said pamphlet -------59
No. VI. Letter from Dr. Milner, F. S. A. V. A. to Sir
J. C. H. ; being a defence of the Catholic hierar
chy ---.  63
No. VII. An Abstract ofthe Answers ofthe Foreign
Catholic Universities to the Questions proposed to
them in 1788,  76
No. VIII. Seasonable Reflections, humbly offered to
the Legislature by some Roman Catholics of Ire
land, written by the Rev. James Usher, and
printed at Dublin in 1774, -------88
No. IX. Extracts from Documents and Letters rela
tive to the Services and Civilities rendered to this
Country by the Court of Rome in 1793, and at sub
sequent periods, which are mentioned or alluded
to in the observations of Sir J. C. H. - - - - 93
Extract of a Letter from the Cardinal Secretary of
State intimating that the Pope had directed that all
his ports should be open to his Majesty's Ships of
War, and that provisions should be granted, &c. ;
— expressing also his gratitude for the extension of
privileges to his Majesty's Catholic Subjects, and
communicating a copy of a Circular Letter to the
Catholic Prelates of Ireland, intimating the Pope's
deep regret, that any ofthe Catholics in that king
dom should have been seduced from their loyalty, - 94
Extract of the Circular Letter above referred to - - 95
Extract of a Letter from the Card. Secretary of State
to one. of His Majesty's Principal Secretaries of
State  96
Extract

X PAGE
Extract of Letter from Card. Antonelli, Prefect of
Propagand. Fid. by order of Pope Pius VI. to the
Catholic Prelates of England and Ireland - - 97
Letter from the Card. Secretary of State, announcing
the Pope's present of a gold medal to each officer
of the 12th Regt. of Light Dragoons then at Civita
Vecchia, ---- -_ .___._ gg
General Orders of the Hon. Lt. Gen. Sir C. Stuart,
K. B. in consequence of the above mentioned
present ------------- 100
Extract of a Letter to Sir J . C. H. from the late Right
Hon. Edmund Burke --------- 101
Extracts of letters from Lord Hood, the Right Hon.
Sir William Hamilton, and Lord Minto, to ditto 102-3
Extract from an address ofthe British and Irish Ca
tholic Clergy of Rome -------- 103
Extract of a Letter from the Catholic Prelates, &c.
of Scotland ------------ 105
Extract of a Letter from Cardinal Antonelli, on the
eve of the last conclave at Venice ----- 106
Extract of a Letter from the reigningPope Pius VII. ibid.
Reflections on the Letters and Documents here quoted 109

ERRATA.
P. 13. Note, I. 3, read regalis.
P. 43. Note, 1. 1. for heterodoxes, lege hetcrodoxis.
P. 44. 1. 18, tor four Lateran Councils, read fourth Lateran Council.
P. 55. 1. 9, for it is, read is it.
Ibid. 1. 1 8, after authority, add is.
ERRATA— APPENDIX.
P. 97. 1. 25, for mages, lege magis.
P. 98. 1. 4, for que, lege qua.

XI

ADVERTISEMENT.

¦¦-J8898 -<#>v-8a»eo'
JIN the debate on the Petition of the
Roman Catholics of Ireland, Dr. Duige-
nan spoke at considerable length, and en
deavoured to demonstrate, from doctrines
which he imputed to the Church of Rome,
as recognised by General Councils, and
supported by history, that great danger
must necessarily result to the State from
acceding to the Prayer of the Petition.
Mr. Grattan and Sir J. C. Hippisley rose
at the same moment to reply; when the
latter naturally gave way to a Gentleman,
from the exertions of whose splendid ta
lents

Xll
lents so much expectation had been rea
sonably excited.
It was not till after the Chancellor of the
Exchequer had spoken, that Sir J. H. had
an opportunity of addressing the Chair,
and then only at a moment when the
House shewed a great disposition to close
the debate. He was therefore constrained
to limit himself to the statement of a few
facts, leaving the application to the judg
ment of the House.* Had the moment been
* Sir J. C. Hippisley (in the course of the debate on
the second evening) said, that though he had risen
very early in the debate with much anxiety, to deliver
his sentiments on this important question at some length,
he had nevertheless given way, with great satisfaction,
to tbe Honourable Member (Mr. Grattan), from the dis
play of vvhose splendid talents so much expectation had
been justly formed. As he now saw the House, at that
late hour, little disposed to prolong the debate, he would
trespass on their patience no further than to state two
facts of considerable interest, and he would leave Gen-
tlemen to draw their own conclusions from them. — The'
first was the Constitution of Corsica, as ratified by his
Majesty, and which stipulated that the Roman Catholic
Religion,

Xlli
been more favourable, it was Sir J. H.'s in
tention to have replied, seriatim, to the ar
guments of Dr. Duigenan, and particularly
to his deductions from the proceedings of
General Councils.
The form of address, which was, in
truth, intended to have been delivered to
the

Religion, in all its evangelical purity (which were the
words ofthe Act), should be the only National Religion
of Corsica, and all others tolerated ; and that the Parlia
ment of that island should concert the discharge of the
functions of the Bishops with the See of Rome. The other
fact was, that a Roman Catholic priest, of the name of
M'Donnel, had been commissioned by his Majesty in the
year 1794, as Chaplain to a Catholic Fenciblc Regiment
raised in Great Britain. Sir J. C. Hippisley said, he would
leave those who rested so much on the presumed restrictions
which appeared to them to grow out ofthe Coronation
Oath, to form their own estimate how far these gracious
acts were reconcileable with their interpretation of it, and
whether His Majesty was not at liberty thus to gratify
the expectations of that description of his subjects, with
out trenching on the principles of the Constitution. — As
the house was so impatient for the question, he would
say no more. — Vide Cobbett's Parliamentary Debates,
May 14, 1805.

XIV

the House, is retained in the following
pages, and if any objection be made to
this form, on the present occasion, the very
high and venerable authority of a learned
Prelate of the Established Church, may be
adduced in support of it. The argument
is principally directed to refute the state
ments that were less distinctly answered
in the course of the debate, and to suggest
some considerations respecting certain acts
of the Legislature, which have passed in
relief of his Majesty's Roman Catholic
subjects, particularly that of the 31st year
of his present Majesty, c. 32.
These considerations, it is apprehended,
will establish, to the conviction of every
candid mind, the necessity of a revision
and amendment of those laws ; whether it
is thought proper that the political privi
leges of the Catholics should be extended, or

XV
or confined within the bounds of their pre
sent limited toleration.
Many of the documents adverted to,
will manifest the conduct of the Court and
See of Rome in relation to the interests of
Great Britain, and its dependencies, at a
recent period, and supply the most authen
tic vouchers of political facts which are
materially connected with this great na
tional question.
London, May 28, 1805.

The preceding Advertisement was prefixed
to the first impression of the following pages,
which was confined to a very limited circula
tion. Several editions of Dr. Duigenan's Speech
have since met with a very rapid and extensive
sale : — a speech but Hi calculated to conciliate
and promote the public interests, by exciting
an unity and co-operation, at a most awful cri
sis, when all the moral and physical energies of
the United Kingdom are so imperiously called into

xvi
into action, and when a very considerable por
tion of the regular military and naval force of
the country, must necessarily be composed of
that description of our fellow subjects who are
the marked objects of the learned Gentleman's
accusation and invective.
To offer some corrective to the erroneous
statements in the speech of that learned Gentle
man, was the original object of the first impres
sion of a great part of the following pages. The
Speeches of a Right Hon. and learned Lord and
of a Right Rev. Prelate, soon after appeared in
circulation, and the annexed correspondence
with certain Prelates of the Roman Communion
took place in consequence. The substance of
that correspondence has been deemed so inte
resting and important, that, with their consent,
little apology need be made for offering it to the
public : — their Letters will be found in the Ap»
pendix, with other interesting documents.
London, Jan. 15, 1806.

HOUSli

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

MONDAY, May 13, 1805.
The Question moved, was,
" That this House do now resolve
" itself into a Committee of the
" whole House, to take into con-
" sideration the Petition of the
" Roman Catholics of Ireland."
Sir; JVlY concurrence in the Motion
now before the House, results from a conviction
that a question, involving so many collateral
subjects of investigation, cannot be consistently
and adequately discussed but in such a Com
mittee as has been proposed ; though, at the
same time, I by no means pledge myself to an
unqualified assent to the prayer of the Petition.
— What those requisite modifications may be to
b which

which I allude, as well as the general scope of
the arguments I may think it my duty to urge
in support of opinions long ago formed upon
what is called " the Catholic Question," the
Noble Viscount *, on the Treasury Bench, will
readily anticipate. In a very detailed corre
spondence, during a period when his Lordship
was deeply occupied with those measures, which
terminated in the Union of Great-Britain with
Ireland, I had the honour to communicate, with
out reserve, to that Noble Lord, the sentiments
I had conceived on a great part of the subject
now before the House. — I had the satisfaction
of finding that they were not in opposition to
the views of his Majesty's Ministers at that
period; — they were not at variance with those
of the most enlightened of his Majesty's Catho
lic subjects, — and I had the fullest conviction,
in my own mind, that the suggestions I had
the honour to communicate to that Noble
Lord, as well as to others of his Majesty's con
fidential Ministers, were fully calculated to se
cure the protestant ascendency, as by law esta
blished, both in Church and State. — To defend
that ascendency from all the dangers which
might be apprehended from innovation, was a
principal object of my communication with that
* Lord Castlereagh. Noble

Noble Lord ahd Others of his Majesty's Minis
ters. For while I suggested the necessity of
abrogating those Sanguinary, and, for that very
reason, those impracticable regulations which
had been framed in times and under circum
stances so widely different from the present, I
did not neglect to substitute such guards for
the Establishment, as a sound and vigorous
policy might require. The extent and import
ance ofthe subject must assuredly entitle it to
the most deliberate consideration ; and it is
only in a Committee of the House that such
measures and expedients can be discussed to
advantage, no less with a view to just and wise
concession, than to prudent limitation and
restraint. But before I proceed to state my opinions on
this part ofthe subject, I am desirous of replying
to such observations as I have particularly noted
when they fell from an Honourable Gentleman*
on the opposite bench, to whom, I am not the
less readily disposed, from my dissenting from
him, to give credit for the purest motives. If
the tenets and opinions held by Roman Catholics
were really such as the Learned Member asserts
them to be, and if his deductions from the doc
trines maintained by General Councils, as well as
* Dr. Duigenan, B 2 individual

individual Pontiffs, were to be admitted as con
stituting the rules of their conduct, there would
be no question but that the prayer of the Peti
tion before us ought to be wholly rejected; and
so far from conceding great privileges to Ca
tholics, 1 should be tempted almost to agree
with the Learned Gentleman in his eulogy on
' ' the wisdom, of the Popery Code and the folly
" of repealing it.''* But with perfect deference
to the motives of that. Learned Gentleman, I
cannot but see this question in a very different
point of view, and with all the application of
my humble talents, aided by long and intimate
habits, at a former period of my life, with those
who were the highest living authorities, on such
subjects, I cannot but form very different ideas
of the Canons and proceedings of those General
Councils, which are so much excepted against
by the Learned Gentleman, as well as the Re
scripts of those Pontiffs who have fallen under
his animadversion. Neither can I admit, that
the facts, he has stated, will warrant the civil
proscription which he seems to recommend as
necessary, against this class of our fellow-sub-*
jects. — The character and the conduct of many
individuals, who have been, in a certain degree,
denounced by the Hon. Member, entitle them
* Vid. Dr.- Duigenan's Speech, Hatchard, p. 41. to

to a very different kind of consideration. Of
some of them I think it incumbent upon me to
speak hereafter in terms extremely remote from
these he has made use of; — and that still more.
from motives of justice, than from the influence
of private esteem and friendship. In dischar
ging this duty, I trust he will do me the justice
to think that I am influenced by no hostile
spirit towards him ; and I must also claim cre
dit from him for my veneration for our consti
tution as by law established. V,re may be alike
anxious to invigorate rather than to encroach
upon that constitution, but we differ in our
means ; nor can I think that the harsh expe
dient of rejecting the Motion now before the
House, is one of those means which can conduce
to such a desirable end: — on the contrary, by
going into a Committee of the whole House,
we shall have every opportunity of investiga
ting this important subject. On one hand,
therefore, if the opinions of the Learned Gen
tleman should prove as well founded as he
doubtless believes them to be, he will haye an
opportunity of urging them M'ith all their force,
unshackled by the forms of the House, and pos
sibly of convincing the majority, by the strength
of his arguments, and the nature and authenti-
city ofthe documents he may adduce, that tlie
rejection of the Petition is a debt due to the
security

6
security of our establishment : while our Roman
Catholic fellow-subjects will, at least, not have
to charge us with precipitate judgement. — On
the other hand, if the House, in a Committee,
should think fit to report the expediency of
conceding the whole, or any part ofthe prayer
ofthe Petition, we shall best judge under what
circumstances, or with what guards, those con-.
cessions may be most advantageously made.
I cannot, however, bring my.^lf to regard this,
Petition iu the very limited view, in which it
is contemplated by ihe Learned Gentleman. I
do not rest on the enumeration ofthe signatures
affixed to it, but I consider it as speaking the
language of all his Majesty's Roman Catholic
Subjects— of a fourth at least of the extended
population of Great-Britain and Ireland ! — and
with respect to Ireland itself, not of an inconsi
derable sect — but of a people !— and though the
Honourable Gentleman assumes that it has not
the concurrence of the Clergy of the Roman
communion, from the circumstance of their
signatures not being affixed to it, I have the
fullest proofs of the contrary; but of those
proofs I shall say more hereafter. I now men
tion them, not to state that this circumstance
should be decisive of paying more or less regard
to the objects ofthe Petition, but merely to infer
that the conclusions of the Honourable and
Learned

Learned Member, with respect to the present
question, are to be admitted with some caution.
When, however, I consider the mass of Catholic
population as deeply interested in this question,
I cannot so readily disregard some 200,000
Roman Catholic subjects of his Majesty now
bearing arms in defence of this constitution,
and of those civil privileges, of which they must
necessarily be anxious to obtain their due par
ticipation — and to which, the history of their
country will tell them, no present inferiority of
station appears in itself a barrier.— To what ex
tent they shall be hereafter admitted, consist
ently with the principles which form the great
base of that constitution, as settled at the Re
volution, would be the question to be discussed
by a Committee. — And it would not be decorous
in us to shriuk from that important discussion
in the most extended and practicable mode, by
putting a precipitate negative to the question
immediately before the House.
Many of the Honourable Member's arguments
have been ably replied to by other Gentlemen,
and particularly by the Honourable Member *
who followed him with such a blaze of elo
quence, as well as strength of reasoning; as
also by my Learned Friend f who spoke later in
* Mr. Grattan* f Dr. Laurence. the

the debate.— I shall therefore touch but slightly
upon those points which have been so satisfac
torily discussed, although I noted, at the time,
with much attention, those statements which it
Avas my intention to advert to, when I first of
fered myself to the notice of the Chair.
I think it also necessary to premise, that after
such observations as I may feel it incumbent
upon me to make on the several heads of the
speech ofthe Learned Gentleman, I shall take the
liberty of adverting to some further considera
tions which I conceive to be materially connected
Avith the question before the House, and to
which, long before tbe period of the Union, I
had devoted no inconsiderable attention, under
very particular circumstances. The Noble Vis
count * on the Treasury Bench, Avill, on this
occasion, also do me the justice to admit, that
I do not enter upon the discussion of this sub
ject from the influence of opinions hastily form
ed. With all the presumed advantages which
the Learned Gentleman may so naturally claim,
the Noble Viscount can attest that the sources
of information from Avhich I have derived my
humble opinions are of no common recourse ;
at the same time he will admit, that the having
access to them could not but conduce, in a high
* Lord Castlereagh, degree,

9
degree, to a more accurate judgement on all the
bearings of this important question.
Having premised thus much, I will now pro
ceed to the consideration of the leading points
of the speech of the Learned Gentleman who
spoke second in the order of debate, as far as it
may be necessary to advert to them, after the
observations which have been made on them by
others. The Learned Gentleman very early in his
speech laid it down as a position, that, in his
estimation, " every British subject Avho ac-
" knoAvledges a foreign supremacy or jurisdic-
" tion, even in spirituals, is a traitor.''' — Such
are his words, Avhich I accurately noted as they
were delivered*. — It is fortunate however for
some millions of his Majesty's subjects, that
they stand in a less odious point of view to the
Legislature, than to the Honourable Member
Avho has pronounced this harsh sentence on their
« religious opinions. Repeated Acts of the Bri-
"tish and Irish Parliaments hold a very different
language ; and have recognised, as a principle,
that the admission of a foreign supremacy, in
matters merely spiritual, is " not dangerous to
" society or civil liberty;" — and they have also
* The mode of expression is varied in the printed speech of
Dr. Duigenan which has since appeared, but in substance it is
the same, and more than once repeated. recognised

10
recognised '• as good and loyal subjects" all
Roman Catholics who take the prescribed oaths,
which were expressly framed to allow this ac
knowledgement of a foreign supremacy, as not
incompatible with their first duties of allegiance
to their natural Sovereign. Such are the Acts
which passed in the 31st and 33d years of his
present Majesty, by the latter of Avhich (the
Irish Act) Roman Catholics are capacitated to
fill some of the -most important civil offices in
the state. It is by the arms of such subjects of
his Majesty, (who are at the same time the fel
low-subjects of the Learned Gentleman and of
ourselves, probably to the extent of half our
military and naval establishments*,) that the
sacred bulwarks of our Constitution are, at this
hour, defended. — -Must it therefore be said that
these statutes were passed for the support and
encouragement of treason? — Yet this inference
must folloAV, if the premises laid down by the
Learned Gentleman are to be admitted.
But before I make any further comment on
the positions ofthe Learned Member, it may be
advisable to consider hoAv far the apprehensions
* In the year 1780, when the facility of recruiting our Navy
and Army was so much greater than at present, the Crew of
his Majesty's Ship, the Thunderer, of 74, lost in the great Hurri
cane, in the West Indies, in that year, consisted of nearly two-»
thirds of Roman Catholic Seamen. excited

11
excited by this admission of a foreign Eccle^.
siastical Supremacy are well founded. — Let us
for a moment divest ourselves of our early pre
judices, the influence of our nurses' tales — and
of the orgies attendant on the annual comme-:
mo; ation of the Popish Plot; — let us not con^
found the acknowledgement of supremacy in
spirituals, Avith the duties of allegiance— terms
Avhich are noAV familiarly, but erroneously ap
plied to what, in fact, they have no relation.
It is but fair to permit our felJowTSubjects, who
hold communion with Rome, to speak for them
selves : — let Rome a}so answer for herself, and
let us not precipitately condemn her for tenets
which constitute no part of her doctrines, or
even discipline. Let us examine what Rome
actually teaches and maintains, as applicable to
this important head of Supremacy, and Avhat is
accepted as the fundamental doctrine of her
Church : — not what certain individual Pontiffs
have held, in antiquated times, Avhen by the
general consent of kings and emperors, they
were constituted the sole umpires in temporal
as well as spiritual concerns. — Let us not regard
what was asserted by such Popes as the prero
gative of the pontificate, or what was enforced
by such Avriters as Bellarmine, the champion of
papal infallibility: let us examine rather what
deference was paid to the bulls and rescripts of
such

12
such assuming Pontiffs, in similar instances, by
the most enlightened states of their own commu
nion, and particularly by the English Catholics,
to Avhom the Bull of Pius the Vth was addressed,
— by those Avho, in the face of such fulminating
rescripts, were zealous to defend their excom
municated Sovereign Avith the sacrifice of their
lives !
In forming a judgement on this material
question of ecclesiastical Supremacy, we find
the case too frequently tried by rules which do
not apply to it,— by a fancied analogy which
has no relation to it. — The poAvers exercised by
our Clergy, though denominated Ecclesiastical,
involve principally civil and temporal rights : —
of this description are tithes — glebes, &c. — of
material churches: — Excommunication itself,
in the established Church, is inflicted as a mere
civil punishment.
The Supremacy of Rome, the exercise of
which may be regulated by the modes I have
on other, occasions suggested, and to which I
shall again presently advert, as sanctioned by
the institutions of other states, can militate
against no civil or temporal rights — and cannot
trench on the duties of civil allegiance — in fact,
it is confined to a subordination purely spiritual :
— a Supremacy which is considered inherent in
all other churches as Avell as that qf Rome.— r-
Woukl

1 O
Would Charles- V. or Lewis XIV. bave so
readily submitted to a poAver Avhich really con
trolled their imperial claims ? — No : but they
considered the spiritual and temporal powers as
having different objects,— different means *. —
Pilate, as the advocates of this Supremacy con
tend, Avas not jealous of the spiritual Power
claimed by our Saviour, who maintained, that
" he was a King," — but said that " his king
dom was not of this world:" — and how can the
doctrine of givins: " unto Ctesar the thino-s
Avhich are Caesar's," be reconciled with our Sa
viour's claim of dominion, otherwise than by
the distinction in question, between a power
purely spiritual and a temporal authority ? —
If the power be purely spiritual, it little im
ports the state as far as its temporal interests
are concerned, zvhere that power is lodged, —
whether Avith the Patriarch of Moscow or the
Pope of Rome, — provided the state is satisfied
Avith such pledges as Catholics are called upon
to give, in the Oaths of 1791 and 1793, in
which they declare — " that they do not believe
" that the Pope of Rome, or any other foreign
" Prince, Prelate, State or Potentate, hath, or
* The Pope Gelasius, addressing the Emperor Anastatius,
says — " Duo sunt quibus principaliter mundus hie regituv ; au-
" thoritas sacra Pontificum, et regalis pofestas ; utraque princi-
" palis, suprema uiraque, neque in officio alteri obnoxia est.
" ought

14
" .ought to have, any temporal or civil juris die-
11 tion, power, superiority ; or pre-eminence, di'
" rectly or indirectly, within this realm."-

It is contended, therefore, that the indepen
dency of this purely spiritual Supremacy, ad
mitted in the person of a foreign Prelate, or
rather in the Church, of Avhich he is considered
as the chief organ, can, in no manner whatever,
interfere with the duties of allegiance to a tem
poral Sovereign. — The Kirk of Scotland main
tains a supremacy equally independent of the
temporal jurisdiction ofthe Crown : — the Gene
ral Assembly considers itself paramount in its
definitions of doctrine and decrees of discipline,
and convenes and dissolves itself; — the King's
Commissioner is not allowed to possess any
authority or controul over the acts of the
Assembly. — This poAver claimed by the Church
of Rome, as distinct and independent of all
temporal authority, we have seen admitted by
the most jealous legislatures, and, not inconsis
tently Avith this acknowledgement, we know
that Catholic Princes have waged Avar against
the Pope himself, and reduced him to the state
of a prisoner, in his capital.  It is unneces
sary here to disclaim an allusion to the modern
devastations of Bonaparte, " and the outrages
" and insults offered to the late Pope, which, (to
quote the Avords of a Right Honourable Gen-
1 Heman

ia

tleman on the Treasury- Bench, on a former
occasion) were so multiplied, in spite of the
" sanctity of his age and the unsullied purity of
" his character, that even to a Protestant they
" seemed hardly short of the guilt of sacri-
" lege *."— We cannot but have in contempla
tion the memorable fact of the Emperor Charles
V. prostrating himself at the feet of the SoA'e-
reign Pontiff, Avhom he had held in chains in
the castle of St. Angelo, and whose Spiritual
Authority, at the same moment, he held as para
mount.  Can Ave refuse to allow that such an
acknoAvledgement of Spiritual Authority must
in itself be innoxious ? — But in admitting the
existence of this Spiritual Supremacy of the
See of Rome, Catholics do not even admit
that the Pope shall himself elect and nominate
all Bishops, as in some ages Pontiffs have as
sumed a right to do, in the same manner as
they exercised other powers Avhich have not
even by Roman Catholics been considered as
legitimately inherent in them.  What said
our Catholic Barons of old to the Pope's Le
gate? — " Nolu??ius leges Anglicv mutari." — And
what is the language of our statutes of Provi-
¦sot^s and Praemunire, ofthe days of Edward the
* Vide, the Speech of the Right Hon. Wm. Pitt, on tbe
Union. Third,

16
Third, and Richard the Second, when Eng
land was Avholly Catholic ?
I shall have occasion to advert to other cir*
cumstances which have a material relation to
the Spiritual Supremacy, and must be con
sidered as offering the strongest argument*
against the supposition of its noxious tendency
as applied to the case of the Petitioners, espe
cially when that Supremacy may be recognised
under such provisions as the Avisdom and sound
policy of other states have instituted. And
here I cannot but observe that the acknowledge
ment of the Pope's Spiritual Supremacy Avill
always form the most plausible pretext for ex
clusive laws against Catholics, Avith those per
sons who either from ill will are desirous of find
ing such a pretext, or who from Avant of reflec
tion, or weakness of judgement, are incapable
of separating in their minds the unalienable
riahts of conscience from the duties of civil
allegiance, and of distinguishing a mere spiritual
subordination in the discussion of points of faith,
from the tender made by them, of their property
and persons to the state.
But, Sir, I ought not to have passed over un
observed the first question of the Learned Gen
tleman in point of order, though of but little
intrinsic consequence ; namely, where he asks
Avith

17
with what propriety an English Peer can be
styled a Roman Catholic of Ireland? — One
Avould hardly suppose the Learned Gentleman
serious, when he must have observed that the
-titles of " Waterford and Wexford" immedi
ately follow that of *' Shrewsbury" in the sig
nature of the Noble Earl. And speaking of the
small number of signatures to the Petition, does
the Learned Gentleman doubt, that if the pro
moters of the Petition had considered it as an
object to multiply the names at the foot of it,
they might have swelled the numbers even to
millions? — It would certainly be more charitable
and more consistent with truth, to accept the
Petition in its present state, as evincing, rather,
the wise and moderate temper of those who con
ducted it, in avoiding any indecent appearance
of an attempt to OArerawe government by at mul
titude and host of signatures. With respect to
the absence of their Prelates and Clergy as
Subscribers to the Petition, I should scarcely
have imagined the Learned Gentleman could
have made this objection, after the declaration
•of my Honourable Friend who moved the consi
deration of the Petition, and who read, in his
place, the attestation of the four titular Arch
bishops, in the name of the Avhole body of the
Clergy.— -To this fact I am authorized also to
speak with confidence myself, as one of the
c ipost

most respectable of the Roman Catholic Prelates
of Ireland very early informed me, that it AvaS
from delicacy alone that the Clergy had not put
their signatures to the Petition, lest they might
be construed as intending to influence others.
I haA^e great pleasure in naming on this occa
sion Dr. Moylan, the titular Bishop of Cork*,
Avhose character is not less revered by his Ma
jesty's Ministers, and by some of the most dis
tinguished Prelates of the established Church,
than by myself. It is well known also, that
Dr. Milner attended in London at the express
instance of the R. C. Prelates of Ireland, to
assist the lay delegates in endeavouring to
promote the success of some parts of their Pe
tition. With respect to the comments of the
Learned Gentleman on a pamphlet of Mr.
Scully, one of the delegates, the House has
heard the observations of an Honourable Mem
ber f, Avho has read several extracts from it,
which seem to establish conclusions very oppo
site to those inferred by the Learned Gentleman.
* In another Letter the same Prelate observes, speakinc of
this petition : " I can certainly answer for myself and my own
" Clergy, : and I am confident that all the Prelates of this Pro-
" vince, and indeed of every province in the Kingdom, approve
" of it." — Dr. Moylan to Sir J. C . H .—Extract— dated May 5,
1805. t The Hon. C. H. Hutchinson.
In

19
In these circumstances it is unnecessary to make
any further comment on the pamphlet in ques
tion. The Learned Gentleman next proceeds to
assign reasons Avhy, in his opinion, the R. C.
Clergy have declined to subscribe the Petition,
Avhich he derives from their objection to the
prescribed oaths, and particularly because, as he
asserts, the oath of 1793 renounces the Pope's
infallibility. — That oath, however, does not re
nounce the infallibility of the Pope ; it only de
clares that the belief of it is not a matter of
faith. I make this distinction, only to shew with
hoAv little precision the Learned Member must
have considered this subject. It is more mate
rial, and decidedly conclusive against his asser
tion, to say, that they do not object to this
oath— for they have taken it ! — They have also
urged the laity to take it. If any blame
attaches to the Apostolic Vicars in England
from the objections raised by them, as he ob
serves, in 1791, they must bear it in common
with the Legislature, Avhich sanctioned their
scruples by adopting the amendments proposed
by them. A Right Reverend Prelate* of the
Established Church must also submit to bear
his share of the Learned Gentleman's censure,
* The-Bishop of St. Asaph.
c 2 as

'20
as that Prelate has so recently said in his place*.
' that it was very true, that the Apostolic
' Vicars forbad the taking the Oath, not that
' they Avere unwilling that their people should
' swear to maintain the Protestant Succession,
' but that the Oath, as framed in the lower
' House, contained some theological dogmata
' which they deemed, and in my judgement
' (observes his Lordship) rightly deemed, as
' impious and heretical. The dogmata I allude
' to, is an abjuration ofthe legitimate authority
' ofthe priesthood: — abjurations Avhich I, as a
' Protestant Bishop, could not make, and /
' should impute great blame to any Priest of
' mine zvho should condescend to make them.
' It Avas on account of these abjurations that
' the Apostolic Vicars reprobated the oath as
' it stood in the first Bill, and when it Avas
1 amended in that part, as it was in this House
' [H. of Lords] they made no further objec-
' tion. — On the contrary, when the Bill had
' passed, they exhorted their people, Clergy
' as well as Laity, to take the Oath as it now
' stands, and they have, as I believe, them-
' selves taken itf." We
* Vide the Speech of the Bishop of St. Asaph, Stockdale,
page 113.
•f The following letter which appeared in the Times, may
with propriety have place here :

£1
We haAre here, Sir, a learned Prelate * of the
established Church, one who asserts that he
took
* The Bishop of St. Asaph. Vide his Speech, in Cuthell's
Debates.

TO THE EDITOR OF THE TIMES.
sin,
Having observed in your Paper of Monday, a statement, under
the signature of an Old Whig, calculated to impress on the pub
lic mind an idea, that the oath prescribed by the Legislature as a
test oi Catholic allegiance (and considered by the same authority
to be a satisfactory abjuration of those pernicious doctrines, the
imputation of which is the principal of penal legislation against
persons professing the Roman Catholic religion) is not approved
by the Bishops of that persuasion, exercising the powers of Vicars
Apostolic in England, I beg leave to request the attention of your
readers to the following important fact :
Immediately after the enactment of the Catholic Toleration
Act In 1791 t, the Bishops who preside, over the four districts
into which the English Catholics are divided, severally addressed
charges to their respective flocks, urging a compliance with the
test required by that statute. I beg leave to cite the following
passages in corroboration of this assertion.
" Hasten to give our gracious Sovereign that test of loyalty
which the Legislature calls for, and to disclaim every principle
dangerous to society and civil liberty, which has been erroneous
ly imputed to you." Vide Charge of Dr. Douglass to the Lon
don District. June 14, 1791.
f It is true that objections were raised by the Catholic Bishops to the
wording of ti.e oath originally proposed, but never enacted, and never taken
by any R.oman Catholic. Those objections became the subject of discussion
iii the House of Lords, and were supported by Prelate! ofthe Protestant
Church.
" We

took " a great part" in that question in 179l»
at issue with the Honourable and Learned
Member op the point of fact ; and I trust that
the Learned Member, as he must find he has
been so much misinformed, will now be ready
to avow his error.
Of the unconditional Power of absolution, on
Avhich the Learned Member seems to rest so
much, I shall hereafter have occasion to speak
more pointedly to his misconception of that
subject :
~~ — —~ — ' > < i ¦ ' '¦ 
" We now announce to you, that you may safely and con
scientiously take the oath prescribed in the Act of Parliament."
Vide Charge of Dr. Walmesley to the Western District. June
28, 179'.
" AVe now inform you, that you may lawfully and conscien
tiously acquiesce in taking the oath inserted in the Act of Par
liament." Vide Charge of Dr. Gibson to the Northern District,
30th of June, 1791.
"An oath has been proposed, and required to be taken by all
the Catholics, which has been so cautiously worded, tha$ as it
does not clash with any of the principles or articles of our holy
religion, cannot fail to be taken willingly, and to be subscribed
by all the Catholics of this district without scruple or difficulty."
— Charge ofthe Hon. Dr. Talbot, to the Midland District, 19th
July, 1791.
On the preceding extracts I offer no comment, as it would be
unnecessary : they clearly evince, that the test required by the
Legislature, from the Catholics of England, is sanctioned by their
Bishops. It is with the public to form their opinion on the
candour or accuracy of the Old Whi°-.
I am, Sir, your obedient servant,
Ut May 1805. JURIDICUS.

23
subject : — for a misconception it is, and a very
gross one, that the Church of Rome does claim
any unconditional poAver of that description, or
indeed any power with respect to absolution,
that is not claimed by the Church of England
itself. But to folloAv the Learned Gentleman in his
observations : he says, that to admit the prayer
ofthe Petition in abolishing Tests, is the very
measure, for attempting which, King James II.
forfeited his croAvn. — 1 should have hoped, that
it would have been unnecessary to remind the
Learned Gentleman that King James was not
dethroned for his sentiments in favour of those
of his own communion, nor his desire to legis
late in their behalf, but for enforcing those sen
timents contrary to law.
The Learned Member's uncharitable construc
tion of the motives Avhich induce Catholics to
refuse the oath oi Spiritual Supremacy, is already
sufficiently refuted by the acts of the legislature
itself, Avhich recognise those as " good and
" faithful subjects," Avho shall take the Oaths,
as before observed, which were expressly framed
with a deference to those scruples of consci
ence. — It Avill be, therefore, unnecessary for me
to follow the Learned Gentlemen through the
details of those forced constructions, and, in
deed, I must say, erroneous statementsr Avhich are

24
are amply refuted by the internal evidence
and history of the times. It is a libel on the
Legislature, which has prescribed a specific
Oath of Allegiance to Catholics, to draw the
inference he has done from their not submitting
to abjure the Spiritual Supremacy of Rome : —
it is also unfounded, that they consider them
selves bound to submit to the Spiritual Autho
rity in all matters Avhich that power may deem
spiritual : — it is not less inconsistent Avith the
fact, though asserted by the Learned Gentle
man, that the Oath of Supremo-. y Avas formed
by Henry VIII. as a mere Oath of Allegiance ;
it is Avell known to have been calculated to
comprehend a strictly spiritual power, which
power he exercised himself on innumerable oc
casions, particularly in the exposition of articles
of faith.
The same inaccuracy is apparent in his re
presentation ofthe injunctions of Queen Eliza
beth, as among other things she expressly claims
the same power that her father Henry had exer
cised. Again adverting to the oath of Supremacy,
I must take my stand against the construction
of the learned Gentleman, and the history he
has given of its modifications. For it is a well
known fact, that its abridgement at the Revo
lution Avas for the express and sole purpose of
compre-

25
Comprehending the Protestant Dissenters from
the Church of England.
To the language put in the mouths of our
fellow- subjects of the Catholic Communion by
the Learned Gentleman, namely—" We are
" from conscience traitors to our country — Ave
" maintain that our country is subject to a
" foreign power — we are always ready to sup-
" port the authority of that foreign power, in
" every possible way, by arms or otherwise,
" and to bow down our country to its autho-
t( rjty *." Is it to this language of reproach — of
insult — but not of reasonable discussion, that
argument can be opposed ? Can the learned
Gentleman himself seriously mean, that such
sentiments are imputable to that description
of his Majesty's subjects in the aggregate? —
and Avith respect to Ireland particularly ; not
speaking of a diminutive sect, but of a popula
tion of millions ? But, Sir, let him be answered
to this point, by the strong evidence of facts —
by the solemn and repeated declarations of the
Catholics themselves — by the liberal admission
of almost everv other member of either House
qf Parliament, Avhenever the Catholic subject
has been agitated — by the gracious replies of
his Majesty to the repeated addresses of the
* Vide Speech of Dr. Duigenan, Hatchard, page 1 6.
Catholic

2rj
Catholic body* — and by the language of the
Legislature itself, in the preambles to the suc-
- eessive acts of extension of civil privileges to
his Majesty's Catholic subjects, which have
graced the present reign — and all avowedly
grounded on the recognition of their attach
ment and loyalty.
If principles, such as the Honourable Mem
ber has imputed " to the Romanists of the
" present day and their abettors" (among whom
he ranks all the Jacobins in the country) could,
from any shadow of evidence, be supposed to
exist in their minds — If such were the senti
ments of more than three millions of our felloAv
subjects of Ireland — of a brave and hardy race,
ever ready, as the Honourable Gentleman as
serts, to maintain at the szeord's point, the preju
dices of their religion — how inconsistent is the
declaration of the same learned Gentleman, in
his letter to Mr. Grattan, at a moment of ac
tive civil dissention, during the heat of a Avar,
excited, as he tells us, by Catholics against
Protestants, I mean in 1798, when he asserted
— " that if Ave Avere one people Avith the British
'? nation, the preponderance of the Protestant
¦' body in the Avhole empire would be so great,
* • that all rivalships and jealousies between Pro*
" testants and Romanists would cease for ever,
il and it Avould not be necessary for the safety " of

27
%l of the empire at large, to curb Romanists by
" any exclusive laws whatever." * Hoav for
tunate for the empire, uoav consolidated as ife
is !— What a happy expedient to neutralise
the in-born treasons of three millions of
otherwise efficient traitors to their King and
Country !
But to be serious, Sir, hoAV are we to recon
cile the arguments Ave have just heard from the
learned Gentleman Avith his anticipation of the
effects of this golden age, as pourtrayed in his
letter to Mr. Grattan ? The Irish are now be
come one people with the British nation, in the
construction of the Learned Gentleman at least,
yet — " we demand the repeal of the laws
" Avhich oblige us to swear allegiance to the
" constitutional governing pQwer of our coun-
" try" — say the Irish Catholics, or rather the
Learned Gentleman says it for them, f — " Such
" repeal Avould amount to a national acknoAV-
" Jedgement ofthe dependence of our country,
" and its subjection to a foreign tribunal. It
" Avill enable us to obtain seats in the Supreme
" Council of the nation, and confer power on
" us to betray the independence of our country.
* Vide Dr. Duigenan's Letter to Mr. Grattan, page 57, —
1798. t Vide Dr. Duigenan's Speech, Hatchard, page 16.
" —The

28
" — The Pope and all our divines assure us that
il Ave are bound in conscience to do so, when
" we should procure power." How does this
language accord Avith that of the Petitioners,
or with that of the Legislature* ? The Learned
Gentleman then proceeds to quote some expres
sions of Dr. Troy, in confirmation, as he
would infer, of those principles : — in a Avord,
the essence of his imputation against Dr. Troy,
" who calls himself the titular Archbishop of
Dublin," is, that he has declared in his Pastoral
Address of 1791, " that Catholics cannot con-
" scientiously abjure the ecclesiastical autho-
" rity of Rome, and that the Pope, as successor
" 6f St. Peter, enjoys a spiritual primacy, not
" merely of honour and rank, but of real juris-
" diction and authority in the Universal
* Vide Preambles of Stat. 31 Geo. III. chap. 32; S3 Geo. III.
ch. 44. &c. &c. — also the preamble of 21 and 22 Geo. III.
ch. 24. " an Act for the further relief of his Majesty's sub-
" jects prof essing the Roman Catholic Religion."  " Whereas
" all such of his Majesty's subjects of this Kingdom (Ireland)
" as have taken, or shall take, the Oath of Allegiance of the
" 13th and 14th of his present Majesty, &c. — ought to be con-;
*' sidered as good and loyal Subjects to his Majesty, his Crown
" and Government," &c.  N. B. The same Act enjoins
that every Ecclesiastic of the Roman Communion shall register
his Name, Place of Abode, Age, and Parish, if he has a Parish,
&c. — Quere does not this Act so far recognise the Appointment
of Roman Cathohc Ecclesiastics to Parishes?
'¦' Church."

29
" Church." — Dr. Troy will certainly not d'u-
avow those principles which are inseparable'
from his communion, although, by the learned
Gentleman's inference, he must be considered
as a traito{r for adhering to them. Those princi
pies have nevertheless been already adverted t<
as perfectly innoxious in themselves, and as no.
incompatible Avith the allegiance of British Ro
man Catholic subjects. To the address it
self I Avould Avish to refer *. No man stands
higher in estimation as a good citizen than its
author ; I am bound to say so from the expe
rience of many years, and from an intimate
knowledge of his indefatigable zeal in endea
vouring to tranquillize his ill-fated country in
the worst of times.
A Noble Lord f , who has recently quitted
one of the first offices of the State, has referred
to the same passage of Dr. Troy's address, but
has the candour to style him " a man of ability
" and of unexceptionable character;" that No
ble Lord must be Avell acquainted with his cha
racter from having filled a high official situation
at a critical period in that part of the United
Kingdom. The numerous pastoral addresses of
* Vide Dr. Troy's Pastoral Instruction, 1793; also several
letters and remonstrances addressed to the Roman Catholics of
his district at different periods.
f Tlie Earl of Buckinghamshire. 1 Dfc

30
Dr. Troy addressed to those of his communion,
will stand as the best test of his loyalty and
abilities, and none more so than that which is
so much objected to by the Learned Member.
— That Dr. Troy is " an Archbishop," I am
perrmaded no prelate of the established Church
Avill deny — that he is a Cardinal, none will be
lieve, though the Learned Gentleman has him
self told us so; " he bears (iu his armorial en
sign) " a Cardinal's cap; from whence I pre-
" sume him to be a cardinal," sa}'s the Learned
Gentleman.' — Is he really so unacquainted with
the Roman ecclesiastical costume, as not to
knoAv that the colour, not the form, constitutes
the distinction between the cap of a Cardinal
and an ordinary Prelate ? — With Avhat confi
dence are Ave to look at the learned Gentle
man's definitions of ecclesiastical doctrines and
discipline? — -May Ave not presume they are as
little correct ? But with respect to the assump
tion of the titular Archbishop, he has been so
far acknoAvledged to be at the head of the Ro
man Catholic province of Dublin, that in this
character his Majesty's Ministers in Ireland
have, successively, been in communication Avith
him. Of Dr. Troy individually I will only say
another word, Avhich is, that if his principles
and conduct had been less favourable to good
order, neither the Pope nor the Roman Catho lic

31
lie Prelates Avould have heen, in equity, respon
sible for the ill consequences of his appoint
ment, as he was strongly recommended for the
situation /which he now fills by a noble Chief
Governor *, and his appointment Avas a marked
concession of the late Sovereign Pontiff to the
wishes, then expressed, by his Majesty's Go
vernment. — The titles of Most Reverend and
Right Reverend, are also stated to be assumed
by the Roman Catholic Prelates of Ireland,
" in direct defiance of the law :" — of what law ?
I Avould ask, for I know of none which gives
a monopoly of these additions to the Prelacy of
our own establishment. All Bishops and Arch
bishops, in Avhatever part of the Avorld, become
entitled to them by their consecration : the
French exiled Bishops are so styled. 'But what
says a Right Reverend Prelate, a Lord of Par
liament, in another place, speaking of these
Prelates of the Roman communion? — " Most
" undoubtedly they are Bishops as truly as any
" here," are his Lordship's words L — But
errors of this description are not imputable to
tlie Learned Member alone. From some of the
highest authorities in another part of the
United Kingdom Ave are told nearly the same
* The Duke of Rutland.
f Vide Speech of the Bishop of St. Asaph — -Stockdale's
Debates. thing

te
thing in substance *. But the errors in point
of information of the noble person to whom I
allude, and Avhom no one respects more than I
do, from the knowledge of his many virtues,
are, as far as bears on the present question,
scarcely less glaring than those of the Learned
Gentleman, to whose statements it is my object
more immediately to reply f. The relative
difference however, as far as respects the nume
rous body of his Majesty's subjects, Avhose
vieAvs and interests are now the subject of dis
cussion, is very great indeed, insomuch that
every assertion proceeding from so high an au
thority, must have its increased weight, espe
cially with a reference to former opinions main
tained by that noble Lord, when he so laudably
interested himself for the relief of his fellow
subjects of the Catholic communion from an
avowed conviction of their general good con
duct and loyalty.
The Pontifical Oath, or that taken by Bi
shops at their consecration, is the next object
of the Learned Gentleman's animadversion, of
which he has read some extracts. I will only

* Vide the Observations of Dr. Troy on the Speech of Lord
Redesdale, Appendix, No. IV.
f Vide Letters of Dr. Troy and Dr. Moylan, in the Appen
dix, No. I. II. III. for

33
for the present say, that he has omitted the es
sential clause of reservation, " Salvo meo ordine,"
which, in fact, is the hinge on which all the
obligations of that oath turn, as far as it may
be supposed to involve any conflict between
civil allegiance and canonical duties. As this
oath has been the subject of frequent comment,
and is unquestionably of material import, I
shall reserve the consideration of it till I speak
of the conduct of the See of Rome as it respects
the modification of this oath, as well as other
recent concessions in favour of his Majesty's
Roman Catholic subjects. For the present
therefore I dismiss it with the single observa
tion, that no Roman Catholic Prelate considers
the oath in question as in the least militating
against his allegiance to his natural Sovereign ;
and indeed the oath itself concludes with the
most solemn asseveration that such is their
construction of its letter and spirit.
The oath stated by the Learned Gentleman
to be taken by priests at their ordination, is
the next which comes under observation. It
is not very material here to observe, that the
oath he has cited is not the oath taken at
their ordination, and that the Learned GenT
tleman seems to have mistaken the Apostles'
creed, which is the only profession made by
priests at their ordination, for the creed of

34
Pius IV. from Avhich his extract is made.
But this error is of little import; it is more
material to advert to his observations on the
doctrines ofthe Council of Trent, some of which
are contained in the passages he has read. It
is certainly of great importance to the object
of the Petitioners, that Ave should be able to
ascertain how far the inference of the Learned
Gentleman can be supported.
The exposition of the doctrines of the Coun
cil of Trent will be best ascertained by referring
to a very short and perspicuous treatise of
the celebrated Bishop of Meaux— -the elegant
Bossuet — compiled Avhen the controversy Avith
the Calvinists of France Avas at its highest
pitch : and it is worthy of remark, that the Cal
vinists predicted that the thunders of the Va
tican would be directed against him, as they
asserted that he had betrayed his Church,
and that his exposition Avas not the doc
trine of the Church of Rome. The Bishop
nevertheless received the highest eulogies from
every quarter, and two successive briefs from
Pope Innocent XI. in high commendation of
his work.
This Exposition is received and circulated
by. the Roman Catholic Prelates of Ireland, as
the true Catholic doctrine. It is translated by
Dr. Coppinger, the titular Bishop of Cloyne —
with

35
with a Preface and Addenda, intitled, " the
" Principles of Roman Catholics.'" An extract
from those addenda has been read in his place
by an Honourable Member*, Avho has antici
pated the design I had formed in adducing
them as a most important document. Con
nected with the object of the Petition before
us, nothing can be more in pointy and the de
claration of such opinions cannot but dispose
every candid mind to meet the question Avith
the temper most suitable to the discussion of
so grave a subject "j". I shall also refer in this
place
* Mr. G. Ponsonby.
+ " The Exposition of the Doctrine of the Catholic Church
" in Matters of Controversy," by the celebrated Bossuet, Bishop
of Meaux, was published in Ireland, with a Preface by Dr.
Coppinger, titular Roman Catholic Bishop of Cloyne, during
the insurrection in 1798. — The Preface, with the addenda, inti
tled, " Principles of Roman Catholics," an extract from which
was read in the course of this debate by Mr. G. Ponsonby, may
be here opportunely subjoined J.
PREFACE.
The awkward predicament of Roman Catholics, while Creeds
made for them by their enemies are forced into their mouths,
notwithstanding their abhorrence of them, so often and so so
lemnly declared, is very naturally pictured by the ingenious*
author of the Freethinkers' Letters. He compares their situation
to that of a man who, while his hands are tied behind his ba'cky
is compelled to wear a hideous mask, and is then abused as an
Italy fellow. But unjust, unreasonable, and extravagant as such
J Cork; printed by J, Crouan,_1798.
d 2 treatment

36
place to a part of the Church catechism
directed to be taught universally in Ireland, as

treatment is, they have still cause to complain of it. Their lot
is not only to be traduced by the illiterate vulgar of other Com
munions, but to be misunderstood and misrepresented by the
most distinguished for learning and liberality in the exalted de
partments of the State. They have the mortification to hear
their Religion styled at this very duy impious, abominable, ido
latrous, damnable, and even from the tongue of moderation,
scarcely a milder epithet do they hear applied to it, than errone
ous, absurd, uncharitable, superstitious, and dangerous : If an in
tercourse with them, shall occasionally prove to their fellow
citizens, that the most endearing virtues, both public and private,
adorn individuals of this Communion, as much as those of any
other, the fact must not plead in behalf of their Religion, be
cause Men may be better than their tenets. If these tenets be
pointed out, if catechisms, prayer-books, and public professions
of Faith, be thrown open to the most rigid inspection ; if the
most solemn appeal be made to the God of Truth, that their
sentiments are really such as are here exhibited, — all this must
not serve them, for their religion recommends the breach of Faith
with Heretics, and authorizes perjury, as often as it can promote
the advantage of the Church ; which is as much as to say in
plain English, this mask that we have made for you is certainly
your face, it is in vain to disclaim it, to refer us to your own fea
tures, you can have no other than these horrid ones, — you area
detestable monster, and you should be thankful to us that we
permit you to breathe.
What resource then for Roman Catholics ? No other than to
prevail, if possible, upon their countrymen to examine dispas
sionately their tenets before they thus cruelly condemn them.
They are set down in this little Treatise simply, yet fullv, and
with precision. Tt

37

as addenda to the ordinary catechism of Dr.
Butler, and I have great gratification in stat

ing

It is now more than a hundred jears since it wasfhst pub
lished. The celebrated Bossuct who wrote it, aware of the
violent prejudices entertained by the Calvinists of France 'against
the Roman Catholic Religion, prejudices which a century of
theological exertion had not been able to remove, and having the
strongest conviction, that these prejudices had no other ground
than the false notions conceived of our doctrine, concluded that
the most effectual method of remedying that evil would be to
propose this doctrine from the body of the Council of Trent,
plainly and without bitterness or contention. The success ex
ceeded his hopes. The system here exhibited, differed so widely
from that which the Calvinists had conceived, that they charged
bim instantly with having betrayed his Church. They said that
the doctrine expounded by him was not the doctrine of Catho
lics ; and that when Rome should hear what he advanced, the
thunders ofthe Vatican must inevitably strike him. — But how
much they were mistaken appeared in the high encomiums be
stowed upon this book from every quarter, but more particularly
from Rome herself. Pope Innocent XL in two successive
briefs complimented fhe author warmly upon it. Cardinals,
Bishops, and the most eminent dignitaries of the Catholic world,
vied with each other in applauding him ; which was undeniable
evidence to the Calvinists that Bossuct had faithfully expounded
the doctrine of his Church. Vast numbers of them now ac
knowledged that their prejudice was groundless, and acting in
consequence, embraced that very system which they had so
lately abhorred. The faith of Roman Catholics is the Fame in
every age : What was then a true exposition of it, is still a true
one, and will be so to the end of time ; for however their disci
pline may vary, their faith is unchangeable as the God who
revealed it. It is hoped then, that a cool unbiassed reading of
this

3S

ing also the circumstances connected Avith
their introduction.— At the period I before
alluded

this exposition will do away some of the prejudices in our own
Country which were so happily removed by it in France, and
though it induce no man to change his religion, will at least con
tribute to establish charity, where rancour had existed. This
book, though long since done into English, as into almost every
language in Europe, hath not been so generally read here as
may be expected, perhaps on account of the style which is
rather uncouth, and in many places obscure. The present
translation is offered to the public with a view of correcting that
defect, in which if it succeed, the Translator's ambition is,
abundantly gratified.
SECTION II.
1. The pastors of the Church, who are the body representa
tive, either dispersed or convened in council, have received no
commission from Christ to frame new articles of faith, these
being solely divine revelation ; but only to explain and to ascer
tain to us what anciently was and is received and entertained as or
iaith in the Church, when debates and controversies arise about
them. These definitions in matters of faith only, and proposed
as such, oblige all the Faithful to an interior assent.— But,
2. It is no article of faith that the Church cannoterr either in
matters of fact, or in matters of speculation or civil policy, de
pending on mere human reason ; these not being divine revela
tions deposited in the Catholic Church.— ^Hence is deduced,
3. If a General Council, or Papal Consistory, or any other
Ecclesiastical' Authority whatever, should presume to depose a
King, and to absolve his subjects from their allegiance, no Ca
tholic could be bound to submit to such a decree. — Hence it
follows, that,
4. The subjects ofthe King of England lawfully may, with
out the least breach of any Catholic principle, renounce upon
" oath

39
alluded to, of the correspondence with the
Noble Viscount*, and the Noble Secretary of
State,
* Lord Casflereagh.
oath, the teaching or practising the doctrine of deposing Kings
excommunicated for heresy, by any authority whatsoever, as re
pugnant to the fundamental laws of the nation, as injurious to
sovereign power, and as destructive to peace and government.
5. Catholics believe that the Bishop of Rome, successor of St.
Peter, is the head of the whole Catholic Church ; in which sense
this church may therefore be styled Roman Catholic, being an
universal body united under one visible head. — Nevertheless,
6. It is no matter of faith, to believe that the Pope is in him
self infallible, separated from the Church, even in expounding
the faith ; by consequence, papal definitions or decrees, taken
exclusively from a General Council or universal acceptance of
the Church, oblige none, under pain of heresy, to an interior
assent. 7. Nor do Catholics, as Catholics, believe that the Pope has
any direct or indirect authority over the temporal power and
jurisdiction of Princes. Hence, if the Pope should pretend to
absolve or dispense with his Majesty's subjects from their allegi
ance, on account of heresy or schism, such dispensation would be
vain and null, and all Catholic subjects, notwithstanding such
•dispensation or absolution, would be still bound in conscience to
defend their King and country at the hazard of their lives and
fortunes, (as far as Protestants would be bound) even against the
Pope himself, in case he should invade the nation.
8. As for the problematical disputes or errors of particular
divines, in this or any other matter whatsoever, we are in no
wise responsible for them ; nor are Catholics, as such, justly
punishable on their account. — But,
9. As for the King-killing doctrine, or murder of Princes
excommnnicated for heresy, it is universally admitted in the
Catholic

40
State *, in Avhose department the measures lead
ing to the Union originated. — It Avas suggested
to some of the most eminent of the Prelates of
the Roman communion in Ireland, that a few
short and plain injunctions impressive of a due
sense of the social and political duties of good
subjects, might be advantageously blended with
* The Duke of Portland.
Catholic Church, and expressly so declared in the Council of
Constance, that such doctrine is impious and execrable, being
contrary to the known laws of God and nature.
10. Personal misdemeanours, of what nature soever, ought
not to be imputed to the body of Catholics, when not justifiable
by the tenets of their faith and doctrine. For which reason,
though the stories of the Irish cruelties, or powder-plot, had been
exactly true (which yet, for the most part, are notoriously mis-
related) nevertheless Catholics, as such, ought not to suffer for
such offences, any more than the eleven Apostles ought to have
suffered for the treachery of Judas.
1 1. It is a fundamental truth in our religion, that no power
on earth can license men to lie, to forswear or perjure themselves,
to massacre their neighbours, or destroy their native oountry on
pretence of promoting the Catholic cause or religion : Further
more, all pardons or dispensations, granted, or pretended to be
granted, in order to any such ends or designs, could have no
other validity or effect than to add sacrilege and blasphemy to
the above-mentioned crimes.
12. The doctrine of equivocation, or mental reservation,
however wrongfully imputed to the Catholic religion, far from
being approved of, has been on the contrary condemned by the
Catholic Church, and simplicity and godly sincerity are con-
•stantly inculcated by her as truly Christian virtues, necessary to
the conservation of justice, truth, and common security. their

41
their common doctrinal catechism. This sue:-
gestion Avas unanimously adopted * by the
assembly of the Roman Catholic Prelates Avhich
had been convened in Dublin, for the purpose
of more readily communicating Avith the King's
Ministers on those points Avhich were imme
diately connected with the concerns of the Ro
man Catholic Clergy. As the answers to the
questions in the original catechism are gene
rally given in the Avords of Scripture, so are they
in the addenda, which are interwoven with the
illustrations of the fourth commandment. The
following are a part of them. —
Q. What are the duties of subjects to the
temporal poAvers?
A. To be subject to them, and to honour and
obey them, Sec. he— for so is the will of God.
Q Does the Scripture require any other duty
of subjects?
A. Yes : — to pray for kings, and for all who
are in high authority, &c. &c,
* Extract of a letter from Dr. Troy and Dr. Moylan, to Sir
J. C. H. dated Dublin, 1 March, 1800.
" The addenda, you suggested, have been inserted in a new
" edition of our Church Catechism, now printing, which is to
*' be taught in every diocese in the kingdom, and it shall be our
*' study to continue to impress on our people a due sense ofthe
" social and political duties of good citizens, and with'sentiments
*' of loyalty and attachment to his MajestyVperson and govern-
** ment, becoming good and faithful subjects."
Q. Is

42
Q. Is it sinful to resist or combine against
established authorities, or to speak with con
tempt or disrespect of those that rule over us ?
A, Yes :— St. Paul says, " Let every soul be
subject to the higher power ; he that resisteth
the power, resisteth the ordinance of God ; and
they that resist, purchase to themselves damna
tion ;" &c.
These are the only articles of the addenda I
think necessary here to recite, and I could wish
y to infer from the facts I have stated, the great
readiness manifested by the Roman Catholic
Prelates to adopt any measure, not inconsistent
Avith their principles, which may be deemed use
ful to promote a sense of loyalty and due sub
ordination among the different classes of their
communion. From the oaths which, at different periods,
have been proposed to and taken by Roman Ca
tholics, and from the declaration of principles
circulated and inculcated by them as consti
tuting their rules of action as Avell as doctrine,
and Avhich have been read by the Honourable
Member in his place, we may appreciate how
far the animadversions of the Learned Gentle
man, Avith respect to this description of his Ma
jesty's subjects, are justly applied.
But let us look further, and see how far the
language of Rome herself 'is conformable to the
declarations

declarations- of her disciples. Upon an occasion
which I shall hereafter again advert to, as con
nected with the Pontifical oath, the late Pope
Pius VI. directed the Congregation of Cardi-
dinals assembled for that purpose, to reply to an
address of the Roman Catholic Prelates of Ire
land, and among other expositions, the follow
ing Avas then given with a reference to certain
tenets stated to be falsely imputed to those pro
fessing the Catholic communion. — " In this
" controversy, an accurate discrimination should
" be made between the genuine rights of the See
" of Rome, and those imputed to it for the pur-
" pose of calumniating it. The See of Rome
il never taught that faith is not to be kept zoith
" the heterodox : — that an oath to Kings se-r
" parated from Catholic communion can be vio->
" lated : — that it is lawful for the Bishop of
" Rome to invade their temporal rights and do-
" minion : — We too consider ait attempt or de-
*' sign against the lives of Kings and Princes,
ft under the pretence of religion, as a horrid and
" detestable crime*." Such
»
* " Nunquam Romana sedes docuit, heterodoxfe fidem non
" esse servandam ; — violari posse juramentum, regibus a Catho-
" lica communiorte disjunctis prxsdtum ; — Pontifici Romano
" licere temporalia eorum jura ac dominia invadere. Horren-
** dum vero ac destestabile facinus etiam apud nos est, si quis un-
" quam, atque etiam religionis pretextu, in regum ac principum " vitara

44
Such is the declaration of the late Venerable
Pontiff Pius VI. Avith a reference to the de
posing and dispensing doctrines erroneously
imputed, .as articles of faith, to those profes
sing the Roman Communion. — I may have oc
casion hereafter to refer to the whole of this
important rescript.
With respect to the fourth Council of La
teran and the Council of Constance, it is now
the less necessary to enter into a minute refu
tation of the Learned Gentleman's deduc
tions from the canons of those ancient assem
blies, as the subject has been so satisfactorily-
argued by my Learned Friend *, as well as by
the Hon. Member Avho immediately followed
the Learned Gentleman in the order of de
bate f . — It will now only be sufficient to re
collect, that the fonmLateran Council^ pre
ceded the sera of the Reformation more than
three centuries ; — that tlie canon, so much ex
cepted against, presents no rule of faith, — that
it is not a canon of doctrine, but merely a
declaration of discipline, and even that, deri
ving whatever force and authority it could
pretend to, from the concurrence of the two
" vitam audeat quidpiam, aut moliatur." — Vide declaration of
the Congregation of Prop. Fid. dated Rome, 13 June, 1"91,
cited in Dr. Troy's Pastoral Address, l/y3.
* Dr. Laurence. + Mi . Grattan. Emperors.

45
Emperors, and the paramount temporal Princes
who were actually, or virtually present in the
persons of their representatives, and assenting
to the Decrees of this Council. — Ahd further,
as a rule of discipline, it could have no force
Avhatever but in those dominions Avhere it was
voluntarily accepted * — The rights of the
Lords paramount were also in that canon ex
pressly reserved — " Salvo jure Domini princi-
" palis, dummodo super hoc ipse nullum pratstat
" obstaculum, nee aliquod impediment um ap-
" ponat." It has not been adverted to by any Gentle-
man in the course of this debate, that this
canon is considered, by many of the most
eminent catholic writers, as supposititious : -^-as
such Collier, and many other Protestant Avriters
have also .considered it. The part reputed
most obnoxious, is taken, verbatim, from an
Imperial Constitution of the Emperor Frede
rick, and consequently had the force of a civil
law of the state before it Avas ever supposed
to be a decree of the Church. But genuine or
supposititious, it establishes no article of faith,
nor even of general or permanent discipline

The decrees of General Councils, and the Bulls, and other
rescripts of the sovereign Pontiffs, are considered of no autho
rity in any state, where they have not been formally published
and accepted. It

46
It binds no Catholic of any country, at the
present day, nor are they responsible for the
conduct of those who enacted it *.
* In an Essay towards a Proposal for Catholic Commu
nion by a Minister of the Church cf England, first printed in
1704, and reprinted by Faulder, 1801, is this passage, speak
ing ofthe deposing doctrine, &c.  " Catholics do not believe
" themselves obliged, by any thing that passed in the said Coun-
" cils of Lyons and Lateran, to approve that doctrine so perni-
" cious to princes. 1st, As to the deposition of Frederic I.
" the act of deposition was only a judicial sentence in a par-
" ticular case, involving many particular matters of fact, of one
" particular person. And it is not the doctrine of their Church
" to hold even a General Council, to be infallible on any such
" mete. judicial sentence. Their Church does nowhere Oblige them
*' to approve such a sentence, much less to take it as a canon,
" or rule of their faith  So as to the third canon of Lateran,
" they do not think themselves obliged to believe or even ap-
*' prove the deposing doctrine upon any thing there delivered. —
" First, because the Lateran canons are suspected as spurious,
*' as it is owned by our famous Roffensis, de Potest. Pap. Lib. i.
" c. rj. and by Archbishop Bramhall in his Schism Guarded!
" 2dly, There is not a woTd in that canon, against prince or
" king, or any supreme lord whatever, but only feudatoriei.
" — 3dly, Tlie fathers, in ordering the pope to depose feuda-
" tories, acted on the authority of the supreme Umporat lords of
" the fee, who were present, by their ambassadors, and were
" consenting to it. Lastly, It is only a canon of discipline, in
" which faith is not concerned, and no nation is obliged to re-
* cave, and consequently which lays no obligation upon con-
** science to assent to it."
GO" The Treatise from which this note is extracted is well
¦worth attention: particularly the 2d Chapter, treating of the
power •

47
It is equally unnecessary minutely to dis
cuss the Learned Gentleman's animadversions
on the proceedings of the Council of Con
stance, preceding also by a century the aera
of the Reformation. They have been answered
by the Hon. Members to Avhom I before al
luded *. No declaration of doctrines emanated
from either of those councils, Avhich could in
the least interfere Avith the temporal rights of
princes, or with the good order of any pro
testant government on the face of the earth.
The Sessions of the Council of Constance may
be said to have been more fatal to the Sovereign
Pontiffs themselves, than to the rights of secu
lar princes, as two Popes were successively de
posed by the acts of that council f.
* Vide the Speeches of Dr. Laurence and Mr. Grattan, in
Cuthell's edition, Holborn.
f A very interesting discussion on the proceedings of the
Council of Constance, particularly in respect to the canons ob
jected to, will be found in " Usher's Free Examination," and io
Dr. Hay's Work before cited.
power of the Pope, and the 13 th Chapter, of not heeping faith
with heretics, &c.
The R. C. Bishop Hay, one of the V. A. in Scotland, in a
Treatise published at Edinburgh in 1779, speaks also of this
canon of the Council of Lateran, as spurious, not having ap
peared till more than one hundred years after the sera of that
Council. Bellarmine, he says, does not reject the canon, but
the fight of evidence is against it.
2 The

48
The famous Bull of Pius V. fulminated
against Queen Elizabeth, could not be ex
pected to escape the strictures of the Learned
Member ; — and indeed, it has been the po
pular reproach to the principles attributed to
Roman Catholics, from the asra of its ema
nation. — A letter of Innocent XI. to the
Emperor Charles VI. avowing similar principles
is also cited. Of this Bull of Pius V. it is
sufficient to remark, that it never Avas received
or considered as binding on the consciences or
conduct of the Queen's Catholic Subjects. It
was founded on no principle of doctrine, or
admissible discipline ; — it Avas merely the as
sumption of an intemperate, misjudging indi
vidual, acted upon by the animosity of the
Queen's inveterate enemy, the court of Spain.
The consequences Avere no other than could
reasonably be expected : — none but a frenzied
fanatic could for a moment listen to it. The
Queen's Catholic Subjects defended her person
and throne, — and the thunders of the Vatican
Avere spent in air. — I will only further observe
on this Bull of Pius V- that it is asserted by
the Learned Gentleman to ha\'e been confirmed
by his successor Gregory XIII. — The contrary
is the fact, inasmuch as that Pope expressly
declared it was not binding on the English Ca
tholics ! The

49
The letter of Innocent XI. is subject to the
same comment. But as that Pontiff has been
named, I must beg to call the recollection of
the Hon. Member to the period of the Jan-
senian Controversy, Avhen the celebrated pro
positions, condemned by the same Pope, were
accepted in Fiance, " subject to the rights
" of bishops, the liberties of the Gallican Church,
" and the prerogatives of the crown."
And here again it is necessary to discriminate
between the doctrines and discipline which Rome
professes to inculcate, and those which she dis
claims; and it is equitable also to admit her own
recent and solemn declarations, in opposition
to any dangerous practical mandates Avhich may
be considered as issuing from those antiquated
Councils, or from individual Pontiffs, on which
th6 learned Member, in his zeal, has laid so
much stress.
But if the Church of Rome, in the ages of
intemperate bigotry, Avhen her power and in
fluence was so much shaken by the efforts
of the first reformers, is to be held to every
inconsiderate act and opinion of individual
Pontiffs, (who as men were not exempted
from the passions and prejudices of men), will
she not, in her turn, claim to bind down the
Reformation itself to the principles avowed and
preached by the great patriarchs of the Refor-
e mation ?

50
mation ?  Shall we find the dispensing and
deposing doctrines less strongly urged by a
Luther,— a Calvin,— a Beza, — or a Knox, than
by the Roman Pontiffs already named ? 
Will not some imputation of intolerance, at
least, attach to the names of a Cranmer, — a
Ridley, — or a Latimer ?  It can never be
enough lamented, that both Protestants and
Catholics, in those times, were so zealously
disposed to the purification by fire and fag
got ! The number of martyrs immolated to their
religious scruples will be found, I fear, too nearly
balanced, in those days of intolerance, to afford
triumph on either side, or any ground for
argument, even if a return of such scenes
could with any probability be in future appre
hended. The next attack of the Hob. Gentleman is
upon the principles avowed by Dr. Milner in a
work published, about four years since, under
the title of " The Case of Conscience Solved*."
— From the influence of private regard, as well
as from a principle of public justice, I should
have considered it incumbent on me to have
vindicated tliis learned and loyal subject of his
Majesty from the censures thus cast upon
him. — But my Honourable and Learned Friendf,
* Faulder, Bond-street. f Dr. Laurence. has

51
has left me nothing to regret, but that I had
not earlier been enabled to acquit this grateful
duty. The ingenious author is accused of an
attempt to loosen the ties of the most sacred
obligations, Avhen he says, " that any promise
" or engagement, however confirmed by oath,
u must necessarily turn upon the cardinal vir-
" tue of prudence." — But what follows? — the
Learned Gentleman forbore to quote the con
text, vis. — " This is saying no more, than
" that the eternal and immutable law of na-
" ture, or rather of God, is paramount to all
" subsequent obligations which we may take
" upon ourselves, Avhenever those appear to
*' militate against each other." — " Need I make
any comment on a doctrine so unquestionable ?
Need it be said, that the obligation must be
appreciated, not by weighing interest against
duty, but by estimating the force of one duty
with another, to examine and to decide Avhich
is the greatest, — not in the scale of worldly
prudence, but of the great cardinal virtue of
prudence — the prudence deified by the an
cients, — that prudence, which, by referring to
the eternal grounds of moral obligation, must
constitute the rule of action in man. — " Nul-
" lum numen abest, si sit prudential
I consider it also incumbent upon me to say,
that if the arguments of this learned Divine,
e 2 ia

52
in the publication alluded to, had been so
objectionable, as, Avithout misconception, to
have excited so much horror in the mind of
the learned Gentleman Avhen he read them in
the House, I should have scarcely supposed
they Avould have escaped the censure of some
eminent persons in his Majesty's councils, to
Avhom, I scruple not to say that, the proof
sheets Avere imparted. The Letter was ori
ginally addressed to myself, though, when
afterwards published, it Avas dedicated to my
Right Hon. Friend * near me. The opinions
of those members of his Majesty's government
Avho early perused it, happened not to coin
cide with that of the learned Gentleman ; —
in fact, Dr. Milner, on this subject, has held
the language of every moral writer, whether
Protestant or Catholic, and I have only to
refer to the Advertisement prefixed to Dr. Mil-
ner's Letter, to justify the motives for its
publication. To rescue the characters of individuals from
unmerited attack, is the duty of every liberal
mind ; some of those individuals I have been
happy, for many years, to call my friends, nor
do I consider such a vindication as inconsistent
with the object ofthe present question: — it is
* The Right Hon. William Windham. assuredly

53
assuredly material to knoAV that those persons
Avho have been elevated to the first offices of the
Roman Communion, within his Majesty's domi
nions, are entitled to our respect and confidence,
rather than to be considered as dangerous citi
zens, especially as their influence on millions
of the loAver orders of the people cannot be es
teemed of light consideration.
I am not surprized that the first Pastoral
Address of the late Dr. HusseA', the titular
Bishop of Waterford, should have fallen under
the strictures of the learned Member; — it Avas
certainly a very injudicious publication, and
the tone and. temper of it such, that the Pre
lates of his OAvn communion, were the first (to
remonstrate with him, and to make a point?" of
his restraining himself within the bounds of
moderation.-  In a subsequent Address to
Dr. Hearn, his Vicar-General, which Avas
generally circulated in his district, Dr. Plussey
made ample amends for his indiscretion: — no
thing: could be more moderate or better cal-
culated to effectuate the good ends it Avas in
tended to promote, in the hour of anarchy and
public distress.
But in whatever degree Dr. Hussey might
have been censurable for intemperance of ex
pression or conduct, — let not the blame light on
those who are not responsible. — It has been said
that

54
that his brethren remonstrated, — let it also be
borne in mind that Dr. Hussey Avas not a Pre
late of their choice. Dr. Hussey Avas unques
tionably a man of pleasing manners and eminent
learning. Those who knew him best, say that
he Avas estimable in all the relations of private
life.  He found the means to recommend
himself to the intimacy and friendship of some
of the highest political characters in this
country. He was brought fonvard, as the
learned Gentleman truly says, by the King's
Ministers for the office of one of the Trustees of
the college of Maynooth: — I can add too that
it Avas wholly at the suggestion of ministers
that his name was transmitted to Rome, at the
head of the list of clergy, recommended (agree
ably to the usual practice) to the See of Rome,
to fill the vacant titular See of Waterford*.
And let it be remembered, Avhile speaking of
the Pastoral Letters and Addresses of the R. C.
Prelates of Ireland, that no description of his
Majesty's subjects have ever rendered more
service to the state, than they have done,
by the opportune and forcible injunctions im
pressed, by them, on themindsof the loAver classes
of their fellow-subjects. If the effect has not been
* On the vacancy of a Roman Catholic See, three names are
transmitted to the Pope, who ordinarily directs that the person
first named on the list shall be the successor.
commen-

55
commensurate to the intention, let them at
least have the credit of the essay, — not on a
single occasion, — not by an individual Prelate,
but severally, and in the aggregate, in all their
districts, st the very moment Avhen the disor
ders of the times induced a hope on their part,
that such injunctions might be salutary. 
And is this the titular Hierarchy which is held
out as so obnoxious r — and +fc is really so advise-
able to check or limit the influence they have on
the inferior clergy or the people ?  They
have prostituted (it has been said in another
place)* the rite of excommunication, and an
instance has been given of the mischievous
tendency of powers thus arrogated, — of inter
dictions from the common necessaries of life,
flowing from their ecclesiastio censuresf. — — -
Yet, however high the authority/Zwhich has
given currency to such reports, those Avho are
* In a debate, on the day preceding, in the House of Lords.
t The 33d Article of the Church of England, teaches that he
" who is rightly cut off from the Unity of the Church, and ex-
" communicated, ought to be taken as a Heathen and Publican
" until he be openly reconciled by Penance."  Rogers, in his
"-Catholic Doctrine1 of the Church of England," tells us, " that
the most severe and uttermost punishment that the visible
Church can inflict, is excommunication, and that a man so cutoff
from the congregation and excommunicated, is not to be eaten
•withal, nor to be received into a House."— — Vide Rogers' Ex
planation of the 33d Article. best

56
best acquainted with the usual mode of inflict
ing the censures of the Roman Church, in these
times at least, must be allowed to suspend their
.opinions till the facts are more clearly ascer
tained. — No one would question the high au
thority from Avhich the observation proceeds,
had he spoken from his oAvn knowledge of the
facts ; but he has taken them from others, and
they may have no foundation, or may have been
greatly exaggerated. I have ever understood,
and I have the best authority for saying so, that
excommunication, as taught and practised by
the R. C. Prelates of Ireland, has no civil effects
whatever, and has barely consisted of depriving
the offending party of the sacraments and other
spiritual benefits of the Church ; — and that no
more is assumed by them than that Avhich all
descriptions of Christians assume, — namely, the
power of severing their refractory members from,
their communions*.
But to return to the titular Hierarchy of the
R. C Clergy of Ireland.— — If such an Hie
rarchy did not exist, it is presumed that his
Majesty's Government Avould occasionally find
* Vide the Letters of the R. C. Prelates in the Appendix, in.
which the misrepresentations on this subject are fully refuted.—
Particulars in the recent Case of the Priest O'Brien and Don-
novan, which produced a trial. — Vide Appendix vi. in which
this transaction is particularly noted by Dr. Milner. itself

57
itself under great embarrassment.  To hold
communication with each individual Catholic
Priest, will surely not be urged as advisable or
practicable, and his Majesty's Ministers, in that
part of the united kingdom, have, at no great
distance of time, considered it necessary to re
sort to enquiries of the minutest nature, ex
tending through the Avhole subordinate ramifi
cations of the R. Catholic Church Government
in Ireland ; — and those enquiries were addressed
to the titular Metropolitan Prelates of the
Church of Rome.
In thisjlierarchy, constituted as it is, Go
vernment holds, in a civil and political view,
the first link of a very extended chain of de
pendent subordination in their hands, — and
thereby acquire the rapid, efficient means of
communication to the remotest quarter of ca
tholic population. —Government seems to be
well aware of this facility, nor do they scruple,
as I have observed, to exercise it; — they have
for a length of time had every assurance of the
loyalty of the R. C. Prelates, and, to an un
prejudiced mind, nothing can be more grate
ful, I repeat, than those multiplied docu
ments, not many years since published, in the
form of Addresses to his Majesty and the Chief
Governors of Ireland, as well as the extended
collection, of their loyal Pastoral Charges, —
their

58
their Exhortations, and occasionally their Re
monstrances, addressed to the lower orders of
their communion, in Ireland, at the several pe
riods of popular commotion*.
Of marriages and appeals to Rome, in certain
cases, which have been also noticed by the
learned Gentleman, much may be said, and
much ought to be said ; — and whether the prayer
of the present Petition is conceded or not,
the Legislature, in justice, in honour, and Avith
a just reference to morals, ought to bring for
ward some arrangement to check the prostitu
tion of a sacred rite, which is but too often used
with a vieAV to effect the foulest purposes of se
duction. Appeals to Rome, in certain cases, as
connected with marriage, it will be difficult to
obviate — and I shall hereafter think it my duty
to state how that intercourse may be conducted,
Avith every deference to the security of our es
tablishment.  The Roman Catholic Clergy, I
understand, have no objection to be placed under
restrictions analogous to those of the Marriage
O C5
Act, — I believe they anxiously wish it, —
they contend only that the sacramental essence
should be reserved to the spiritual primacy,
and readily concede that the civil effects should
wholly be regulated by the civil jurisdiction. 
* These have been republished by Coghlan, now Keating,
Duke-street, Grosvenor-square.
My

59
My learned Friend* has already pressed the at
tention of the Legislature to this delicate sub
ject, feeling, as he professionally must, all the
fitness of applying some prompt and efficacious
remedy to the increasing evil. — Some whole
some regulations should be interposed, without
delay, in this too frequent struggle between prin
ciple and profligacy. — Both in Great Britain
and Ireland the same exigency of reform is but
too apparent, though the laws, as applying to
marriage, are materially different. — In the lat
ter, a marriage between Catholics, solemnized
by a Catholic Priest, is legal — in Great Britain
otherwise. — Under the existing Union, afford
ing a more extended intercourse, to what mis
chief does not this dissimilarity of provision ex
tend? — In the descent of property and honours,
may it not produce the most serious conse
quences ?
A Noble Lord, at the head of the IaAV depart
ment in another part of the united kingdom, is
said to have represented the Catholic Clergy as
acting against law, even in solemnizing mar
riages between persons of their own communion.
— It is presumed, however, that his Lordship
must be misunderstood, — for the certificates of
such marriages are constantly received in the
courts of justice in that part of the kingdom.
* Dr. Laurence. It

60
It is true, they are prohibited, under penalties,
from marrying Catholics and Protestants toge
ther. As there is no civil marriage-act in Ire
land, so this contract, like other contracts not
invalidated by laAV, is acknowledged by the law
as binding. By the same rule of application,
marriages performed by excommunicated priests
in Ireland are held good ; Avhich is one of the
grievances complained of by Catholics. An
application, I have heard, was made to Govern
ment, in the Duke of Newcastle's administra
tion, to allow a bill to be brought in to legiti
mate Catholic marriages in England, but the
objection Avas, that as the R, C. Priests wei;e not
then recognized by law, no such relief could be
granted. At the present hour, when they are
recognized, no obstacle seems to stand in the
Avay of a measure, not only dictated by the
wisest policy, but grounded on every principle
of religion and morals.
The Learned Member in the course of his
speech, Avith a reference to Auricular Confes
sion, exclaimed — " Give me the advoAvson of
" a man's conscience, and I Avill not thank you
" for the fee-simple of his property." — These
were his words, Avhich I noted as they Avere spo
ken. — If the abuse only of Auricular Confes
sion Avas meant to be reprobated, there is no
point at issue between us on this head of objec tion ;

b

fJl
tion ; but if this solemn rite of the Roman
Church is to be censured in all cases, the
Ritual of the established Church, as Avell as
that of Rome, must equally fall. Is not the
priest enjoined by our own Rubric to "move
" the sick to special confession ?" — He is
directed specially also to admonish him touch
ing the settlement of his worldly affairs ; — and
then, supposing his penitent has made a
due confession, the priest, in the words of
the Ritual, recognizing the power of Absolu
tion left by Christ to his Church, absolves the
sick person in these Avords : " By his {Christ's)
" authority committed to me, I absolve thee
"from all thy si?/S." — What greater power
does the Church of Rome assume to herself?
We can only say, that as auricular confession
is more frequent in one Church than in the
other, there is, unfortunately, the greater
risk of abuse. — But that Ave may be clear
in our conception of the authority assumed by
the Church of England in this respect, Ave
have only to look to another part of our Ri
tual, — the Ordination of Priests, — where the
great, prominent distinction between their or
dination, and that of Deacons, consists in the
power of absolution, in the most unqualified
terms, imparted by the imposition of the Bi
shop's hands, accompanied by the Avords : —
" Those

62
u Those whose sins thou shalt forgive, are for-
"given; and those whose sins thou shalt re-
" tain, they are retained*."— In both Churches,
Absolution is granted on the like conditions ; —
namely— contrition for past sins, joined to a
firm purpose of amendment: — in both Churches
it is alike taught, that Avithout a firm purpose
of amendment, the absolution is nugatory f.
On this subject I will only add, that what-,
ever evils may have flowed from their abuse,
Auricular Confession and Excommunication
have prima facie the good of society for their
object. — Burnet, no flatterer of Popes or Ca
tholics, laments that Excommunication is not
left to the ClergyJ : — and it is a fact, estab
lished by the evidence of history, that some of
the Protestant states of the Empire considered
* The words taken from St. John xx. 22, 23.
•f Vide the Douay Cateehism, article Penance.
% Mr. Reeves, in his valuable Introduction to the Book of
Common Prayer, recites the ancient form of Penance enjoined,
on the first day of Lent ; adding, that " our Church has sup-
" plied the want of this severe discipline by the suitable office
" called the Commination." — In the service of the Commination,
the Priest, is directed to say, that, " In the primitive Church
** there was a godly discipline ; that at the beginning of Lent,
" notorious sinners were sent to open Penance," &c. — Instead
therefore, until the said discipline may be restored again, which is
much to be wished, he. &c. &c. — Vide Reeves's Introduction
prefaced to the Common Prayer-Rook.— King's Printing-Office. that

63
that the cause of morality had so much suffered
by the disuse of Auricular Confession, that they
petitioned Charles V. to enforce the observance
of it by an imperial edict, as a check on the
prevailing libertinism.
But, Sir, it is painful to feel myself constrain
ed so frequently to negative the assertions of
the Honourable Member — "the exclusion of
" Romanists from seats in the legislative As-
" semblies," he says, " is of absolute, impera
tive necessity ; — it is required by the very
"constitution of Britain;" — yet, need I say
that Catholics did sit in either House and hold
great offices of state for a considerable period
subsequent to the Reformation, and even down
to the reign of Charles II. ?
My Honourable Friend who moved the ques
tion before the House, has argued that the ex
clusion of Catholics from Parliament is an un
just restriction of their natural rights : — the
learned Gentleman, in reply, contends, that
they are not excluded by the Legislature, but
that they exclude themselves by their rejec
tion of the Oath of Supremacy, — " not being
" iu its own nature an oath of exclusion, but
"of allegiance to the state:"  " their re-
ejection of this oath," he says therefore,
"amounts to an avowal that they are, in
"principle, traitors to the state!" — It must
2 then

64
then folIoAV that the Legislature, . by repeat
ed acts, as I have before observed, connives
at their treason and supports it. — But if the de
ductions of the learned Gentleman were estab
lished, it Avould not be enough that Catholics
should be excluded from Parliament, but that
the whole penal code should be revived against
them in its utmost rigour.
The learned Gentleman then proceeded Avith
his declaration, that, " instead of Avarmly sup-
" porting the measure of an Union in the Irish
" House of Commons, he would have opposed
" it to the utmost of his power, had he sus-
" pected that such a measure as the present
" would have been introduced in the event of
" an incorporating Union taking place." — -—
And further he adds — " Such a measure, noztx
" that an Union betioeen Great-Britain and
" Ireland has taken place, is more mischievous
" to the British Empire, than it could have
" been in the reign of James *." — I knoAV not
how the Learned Gentleman will reconcile these
sentiments Avith his anterior declarations, in his
memorable Letter to Mr. Grattan, a few years
since. — He now speaks of the Irish Catholics
as " a strong band indissolubly knit together ;
" — allies to every junto of republicans, every
• Vide Speech of Dr. Duigenan, Hatchard, pp. 47, 48. — 1805,
" band

65
Xl band of dissenters in every opposition to Go-
" vernment, unless gratified by the utter sub-
" version of the Constitution in Church and
" State*." Yet his Letter 'to Mr. Grattan Avas
Avritten, flagrante bello, a civil war lighted up,
as he now tells us, by these very;Romanists, ne
vertheless at that moment he deliberately told us,
that Avere the Irish " one people with the British
" nation, it Avould not be necessary for the
" safety of the Empire at large, to curb the Ro-
" manists by any exclusive laws whatever !"¦}¦ —
I must confess/ these contrarieties of opinion,
under circumstances not essentially different,
are beyond the compassof my understanding to
reconcile. The Honourable Member in the next place
contends, that Catholics hold "that all pledges
" of faith given to heretics by oaths, or other-
" wise, are absolutely null and void, so that
" they may take such oaths and break them
" at their pleasure as absolute nullities, and
" such has been the constant and avowed prac-
" tice of their church J." — " This doctrine is
" founded," he tells us, " on the express decree
" of , the Council of Lateran — that faith is not
" to be kept with heretics." — To this assertion I
•¦* Vide Speech of Dr. Duigenan, Hatchard, pp. 47, 48. 1805.
t Vide Dr. Duigenan's Letter to Mr. Grattan, 1798.
j Vide Dr. Duigenan's Speech, Hatchard, p. 53,
f must

66
must again oppose the solemn declaration of the
See of Rome in the pontificate of the late Pope,
addressed to the Prelates of Ireland, denying
that such principles Avere ever inculcated.— The
Bull of Pope Martin V. may also be cited, Avhich,
condemns wilful perjury on any occasion Avhat-
ever, and declares it to be a principle of Catholic
Communion to believe, that it is not lazoful for
any one to. perjure himself on any account, even
for the sake of the faith*. Every Catechism
and Exposition of the Roman Catholic Doctrine
enjoins the same scrupulous observance of an
oath. — I must add, thatif Catholics could re
concile it to their consciences to take on^ false
oath, even for avowed useful purposes, it will
be difficult, and indeed impossible, to shew why
they might not equally take another under the
same reservation, — that of supremacy, for exam
ple, Avhich Avould entitle them to so many civil
advantages. With regard to the statutes enumerated by the
Learned Gentleman as necessarily to be repeal
ed, should the prayer of-.the present Petition be
conceded, I must observe that the remaining
statutes are neither so numerous, nor essentially
so important as those Avhich have actually been
* The Tracts of Mr. Usher and Dr. Hay, before mentioned,
refer to innumerable documents and authorities in confirmation
«f this principle. , abrogated

67
abrogated in the present reign. — As to " the
" oaths, the bulwarks of the Constitution, and
u the fortifications made for the safety and
" preservation of the state for two centuries,
" noAV proposed to be levelled Avith the dust,"
in the Honourable Member's estimation : — I Avill
only observe, that their security is merely
imaginary. We knoAv that the tests of qualifi
cation for offices are annually dispensed with,
and that too in favour of those! even who
have sat in his Majesty's cabinet, Avho have
never taken them at all '.—and "with respect to
Catholics,1 1 shall presently'sheAV that some of the
mos"t restrictive and severe of those constructive
bulwarks that remain, have no practical effect
whatever. To the historical part of the learned Gentle
man's speech I shall' not reply., Nothing is
necessary to be urged, as far as history is con
nected Avith the question, in addition to the
luminous statements of my Honourable Friend
Who moved the question, and of the Honour
able Member* Avho immediately followed the
learned -Gentleman in the order of debate: — >
it has been my objett, chiefly, to pursue the ex
amination of those points of controversy, which
a particular combination of circumstances, both
'at home and abroad, had at a former period inci-.
* Mr. Grattan. ' <
e a dentally

68
dentally excited : — and £o such facts also as have
fdlen within my own personal, knowledge,
connected Avith this question, I shall think it
my duty to advert. •.. '.O'k; "
Of the " dreadful and dangerous mutinies of
" Irish Romanists in the British, fleet,''! and of
the' conduct of "Irish Romanists" at the period
ef Humbert's invasion, I am not qualified to
speak with accuracy; and I should be disposed
to. think that the. accounts Avhich the Learned
Gentleman has stated Avith respect to the latter,
(though I beg to be understood that I impute
noAvilful misstatement to him) must be greatly
exaggerated; — I mean where he speaks " of
" all the' Rotnanists of influence and property
" in the adjacent districts having joined the
" enemy;"— I f say that I must receive such a
statement with considerable doubt on my, own
mind, as I have heard very different represen
tations, i; i)i[>i)j; t;i ,<[oi'::jtj]! --rii ni'v, W'biv
1 A subject of very light consideration in the
opinion of the Honourable Member, but of most
grave and weighty importance in my own'hum-,
ble opinion, remains for observation; 'I mean,
Sir, the situation of that great proportion of
Catholic population enlisted in the naval and
military serviceof the country. rr TheiHonour-
able Gentleman contends, that "not one half of
" the Irish serving in the/: British fleets and
¦J JFi'-:r:^ V < " armies

v&£

C9
"¦ armies are Romanists, and that the Protestants
" of Great Britain and Ireland Avould furnish
" sufficient armies and fleets, if Romanists Avere
" entirely excluded." Also, that " the degree
" of merit of a Romish common soldier, serv-
" ing under Protestant officers in an army, nine-
" tenths of Avhich are Protestants, is so minute
" as cannot easily be appreciated."* I cannot
but differ most materially from the Honour
able Member, both as to the fact and his reason
ing upon it, and as little, I apprehend, will his
opinions have credit at the War Office. I speak,
Sir, from authority Avhich I cannot doubt, when
I state that in many regiments of the line the
Catholics form a very large majority, extending
even to tzvo-thirds. — Of the three levies for
rank of one thousand men each, recently com
pleted, in two of those corps, stationed in a
southern part of this kingdom, I am assured
there Avere only 160 who are not Catholics. — In
. many, the officers are of the Roman Commu
nion. I am assured that for one English or
Scotch recruit received at the general depdt in
the Isle of Wight, a dozen are Irish, and two-
thirds of them Catholics. I am also assured
that of a regiment noAV stationed in the West of
England, of 900 men, are 860 Catholics ; — and
further, I have the authority of a Noble Lord
* Vide Dr. Duigenan's Speech, Hatchard.
3 for

70
for stating, from his own knowledge, that of
470 sick, in the military hospital at Plymouth,
363 are Roman Catholics.
Now, Sir, although the military service is
open, by laAV, to Catholics in Ireland* they are
no sooner landed in this part of his Majesty's
dominions, than they are subject, and indeed
but too often forced, to attend the service ofthe
established church : — it has often happened,
that the men have refused to march, and the re
sult has been such as is too painful for me to
state. I know that in many instances great
indulgence has been shewn to this description
of our fellow subjects, and I have great plea
sure in saying, that I knoAV the gallant brother
of my Honourable Friend who. moved the pre
sent question, has been one of the most forward
of his Majesty's General Officers to give those
under his command the benefits of unequivocal
toleration. — In other instances I know that Ro
man Catholic soldiers are allowed the service of
their own communion, but, by an inconsistency
which defeats the indulgence, are afterwards
* Even under the mild administration ofthe present Lord Lieu
tenant of Ireland, great dissatisfaction is known to exist from Ro
man Catholic soldiers being forced to attend the established
Church, in direct violation of the law, and even, though on some
occasions, Roman Catholic Priests have been specially engaged to
induce them to enlist, under an assurance of the free exercise of
their religion.
marched

71
marched to the established Church. In the Navy
I understand the same constraint is but top
generaL — it follows therefore that the benefits of
the act of 179', have neArer been considered as
extending to that description of his Majesty's
subjects Avhich is perhaps most intitled to the in
dulgence of the Legislature, and to Avhom it is
most for the interest of the state, that Avhatever
religious and conscientious scruples they may
feel, should be cherished and indulged, namely,
the naval and military defenders of their coun
try. I can venture to assert, as consistent with
my own knowledge, having been the channel
through Avhich many representations on this
subject Avere made to his Majesty's Ministers,
some years since, that the evil Avas then of great
magnitude, and the recruiting service very much-
impeded in many districts in consequence of the
practice. Representations Avere. also made to
my Right Honourable Friend *, who Avas then
in office, and Avhose feelings on the subject Avere
congenial with the liberality and integrity of
his mind: but, notAvithstanding the " perfect to
leration" Avhich some Gentlemen have contended
does exist in every part of his Majesty's domi
nions under the guarantee of the Legislature,
it Avas not Avithin the power of my Honourable
Friend to procure any adequate remedy for the
* Right Hon, W. Windham. evil.

72
evil. Very far I am from imputing blame to the
high authority to Avhichit is natural to look up:
— I know that general orders were withheld, as
it Avas considered that they Avould clash with
the regulations under the Mutiny Act, which
thus defeat the Avise and humane objects of
those statutes to Avhich I have before alluded. I
differ therefore Avith the Right Honourable
Gentleman, * Avho considers that the evil is an
object of mere internal regulation, as it is the
authority of Parliament alone that can supply
an adequate remedy — in the opinion of those at
least Avho are placed at the head of the military
department of the state. I Avish to press these
facts, Sir, most earnestly on the attention of the
House, and I trust that Avhen the Mutiny Act
comes fonvard to be reneAved, in the next Session
of Parliament, Ave shall find such provisions in^
troduced, applying to this grievance, t as sound
policy, as well as justice, demands, by assuring
to this useful class of his Majesty's subjects, the
undisturbed exercise of the religion in which
they have been educated, and which they Avere
* Mr. Pitt.
t A very serious representation has recently been made by the
principal Catholic Prelates in Ireland to the Government there,
complaining of the continuance of this practice. They contend
also, that they c;;nnot consistently promote the enlisting of Roman,
Catholics, while this evil remains unredressed. taught

73
taught to believe was secured to them by the
existing iaAvs of their countiy.
I will now beg to advert more particularly to
the conduct of the See of Rome, especially in
recent times, Avith a view to consider how far
successive declarations of the Roman Catholics
of Great Britain and Ireland ma)' be considered
in unison Avith the authority Avhose supremacy,
in spirituals, they acknowledge and maintain.
And here I must take the liberty to observe, that
I cannot aaree with those Gentlemen who, ar-
guing on this question on the footing Avhether
of right or of expediency, have expressed an
opinion that the authority of General Councils
and of Sovereign Pontiffs is of little import to
its merits, and that the declarations of the Pe
titioners themselves, respecting the supposed
tenets, which are accounted dangerous, but
which they are ready to disavow, need alone
be adA-ertedto. While the supremacy of Rome
is admitted, I will so far agree with the opposers
of the question, that I cannot turn aside from
the consideration of that source of ecclesiastical
authority. — I cannot but look with cautious
anxiety to the decrees and definitions of Gene
ral Councils, in matters of doctrine at least, but
I Avill take care not to confound the discipline
Avith the doctrinal canons of those Councils — an
error from which has originated much of the
obloquy

74
obloquy and imputation Avhich we have heard,
in the course of this debate, so profusely cast
on those holding communion Avith the See of
Rome. But, Sir, Avere I to omit this examination, I
should certainly give the Hon. Member no in-
Considerable advantage, as he has repeatedly
ehallenged the investigation.' — " Let the sup-
, " porters of the present measure," says he, " in-
" form the House, at Avhat period, and by Avhat
" public authority, did the Romish Church or
" its Arotaries renounce or disavow these prin
ciples, or any, or which of them?  It is
" notorious," says he, "they never did*."
The Honourable Member will allow me to
accept this challenge, by referring to a disa
vowal,: on the part of the Church of Rome, of
those very principles he lias been pleased to im
pute to it; — a disavowal of the most pointed
and unequivocal nature, and which I should
have supposed it Avas scarcely possible for hint
to be unacquainted with, as he has so often re
ferred to the very pages which contain it ; — I
mean the Exposition of the Pontifical Oath it
self, by the late Pope Pius VI. Avhich is given
in Dr. Troy's Pastoral Address of 1793. — He
must allow me also to refer to transactions,
* Dr. Duigenan's Speech*— Hatchard.
many

75
many of which I can myself attest, and
the results of Avhich must, I am persuaded, to
'every candid mind suggest different conclusions
with respect to the principles and conduct of the
See of Rome, from Avhat Ave have heard from-
the Honourable and learned Gentleman.
Of the Rules established by Benedict XIV.
(the celebrated Lambertini) for the conduct of
the British Roman Catholic Clergy, inculcating
the most particular obedience to the civil autho
rity, I will not enter into details; I mention
them only as illustrating the subject, by the most
pointed injunctions of good citizenship. — Of
the same favourable disposition of his successor,
Clement XIII., I could adduce repeated in
stances; but I will only mention the fact, that
on the decease of the father of the Cardinal of
York, he interdicted, and othenvise severely
censured, -the superiors of two convents in
Rome, Avho presumed, in an office of the Church,
to name his late Brother, as King of Great
Britain. — But, Sir, let us pass to what more
immediately involves the essence of the question
before us, and Avhat the learned Gentleman Avill
accept, I trust, as a complete answer to his em
phatic interrogation ; I mean the conduct of
the late Pope Pius VI. Avith his interpretation
ofthe formiclable Pontifical Oath. — I Avill state
1 the

7<;
the fact as recited in the Pastoral Address of
Dr. Troy, 1793.
" The Roman Catholic Archbishops of Ireland, af
" their meeting in Dublin, in 1791, addressed a letter to
" the Pope, wherein they described the misreprescnta-
" tions that had been recently published of their conse*
" cration «ath, and the great injury to the Catholic body,
" arising from them : — they expressed their fullest con-
" viction that the oath, obliging them only to canonical
" obedience to his Holiness, and communion with the
" centre of Unity, was perfectly reconcileablc with their
" loyalty as subjects, and the allegiance they had sworn
" to their gracious Sovereign King George HI. — they
" professed a determination to observe both oaths, and to
" preserve their communion with the Holy See invio-
" late: — reflecting, however, on the ignorance, of most
" Protestants respecting the oath, witk which they secin-
" cd only acquainted from the calumnious publications
"against it; the Prelates above-mentioned suggested to
" the Pope, that some declaration or explanation ofthe
" oath, and particularly of the words — fhereticos persc-
" quar et impugnabo, from himself or by his authority,
" would, probably, remove the alarms of well-meaning
" Protestants, and confound the prejudiced, who, by
" their misrepresentations of the oath, endeavoured to
" blast the prospects and expectations of Catholics to ob-
" tain an emancipation from the penal code; which they
<' had reason to hope for, from the clemency of his Ma-
" jesty, and the wisdom ofthe Legislature.
" After due deliberation at Home, the Congregation of
"Cardinals appointed to superintend the ecclesiastical

" affairs of these kingdoms, returned an answer (of which
'' the following is an extract) by the authority and com-
'" maud of his Holiness.

" MOST ItLrSTRtOVS AXD MOST REVEREND LORDS,
" AND BROTHERS*,
" We perceive from your late letter, the great im-
'* easiness yon labour under since the publication of a
"pamphlet, intitled, The present Slate of the Church of
" Ire/and, — from which our detracters have taken oc-
•• casion to renew the old calumny against the Catholic
"" Religion with increased acrimony ; namely, that this
" religion is by no means compatible rcith the safety of
'•' kings and republics ; because, as they say, the Roman
" Pontiff' beitig the father and master of all Catholics,
" and invested &~ith such great authority, that he can free
" the subjects of other kingdoms from their fidelity and
'< oaths of allegiance to kings and princes ; he has it in
" his power, diey contend, to cause disturbances and in-
" jure the public tranquillity of kingdoms, with ease. We
" wonder that you could be uneasy at these complaints,
" especially after your most excellent brother and apos-
• tolical fellow-labourer, the Archbishop of Cashel-f, and
<f other suenuous defenders of tlie rights of the Holy
" See, had evidently refuted, and explained away these
" slanderous reproaches, in their celebrated writings.'' —
" In this controversy a most accurate discrimination
*' should be made between the genuine rights of the
* The original Latin will be found ia opposite columns in Dr.
Troy's Pastoral Instruction, 17°8. — (Coghlan, Duke-street.)
t Dr. James Buder. il Apostolical

78
" Apostolical See, and those that are imputed to it by
" innovators of this age for the purpose of calumniating.
" The See of Rome never taught, that faith is not to be
" kept with the heterodox : — that an oath to kings sepa-
" rated from the Catholic Communion, can be violated :
" — that it is lawful for the Bishop of Rome to invade
" their temporal rights and dominions. We too consider
" an attempt or design against the life of Kings and
" Princes even under the pretext of religion, as an horrid
" and DETESTABLE CRIME."
" His Holiness Pius VI. has not, however, disregard-
" ed your requests ; and therefore, in order to effectually
' " remove every occasion of cavil and calumny, which,
" as you write, some borrow from the words in the form
" of oath of obedience to the Apostolical See, that Bi-
<f shops are required to take at their consecration. — X
" will prosecute* and oppose heretics, t^c. to the utmost
" of my power ; which words are maliciously interpreted
" as the signal of war against heretics, authorizing per-
" secution and assault against them* as enemies; whereas
" the pursuit and opposition to heretics, which the Bi-
" shops undertake, are to be understood as referring to
" their solicitude and efforts inconvincingheretics of their
" errors, and procuring their reconciliation with the Ca-
* No one word in trie English language, corresponds exactly
with persequar, as used here. , Abstractedly it certainly can
not be considered as signifying persecution. To make it bear
this construction, it must be united with some word of hostile
meaning, as Perscqui hello, gladio, <5'c. — one may even say per-
sequi benefcio : — : at any rate it is just to admit that construction
¦which the See of Rome : itself "Now gives it — it matters not whether
tt were ever differently-construed. (Vide AinvtcartKs Dictionary.) " tholiC

79
" tholic Church : his Holiness has graciously conde-
" scended to substitute in place of the ancient form of
" oath, that one which was publicly repeated by the
" Archbishop of Mohilow, to the great satisfaction of
" all the Court of Petersburgh, in presence of the Ein*
" press; and which we transmit to you in this letter.
<c In reality, who is there that does not know what the
" Roman Church, the mother and mistress of all others,
"preaches, teaches, and commands, on the duty of
" obedience from subjects to earthly powers ?
" At the very commencement of the yet infant Church,
" blessed Peter, Prince of the Apostles, instructing the
" faithful, exhorted them in these words : — Be ye subject
" to every human creature for God's sake, whether it be to
'¦' ihe king as excelling, or to governors as sent by him, for
" the punishment of evil-doers, and for the praise ofthe
" good; for so is the will of God, that by doing well you
" may silence the ignorance of foolish men. The Catholic
" Church being directed by these precepts, the most re-
" nowned champions of the Christian name replied to the
" Gentiles when raging against them, as enemies of the
" empire, with furious hatred; we are constantly praying,
ff (Tertullian. inApologet. chap, xxx.) that all the em-
" perors may enjey long life, quiet government, a loyal
" household, a brave army, a faithful senate, an honest
" people, and general tranquillity. The Bishops of Rome,
" successors of Peter, have not ceased to inculcate this
" doctrine, especially' to missionaries, lest any ill-will
" should be excited against the prafessors of the catholic
*' faith, in the minds of those who are enemies of the
" Christian name. We pass over the illustrious proofs
" of this fact preserved in the records of ancient Roman
"Pontiffs;

$0
" Pontiffs ; of which yourselves are not ignorant. We
" think proper, notwithstanding, to remind yon of a late
" admonition ofthe most wise Pope Benedict XIV. >,ho
'* in his regulations for the English missions, which are
"likewise applicable to you, speaks th;.s : — The T tears
" Apostolic are to take diligent care that the missionaries
" behave on all occasions with integrity end decorum, and
" thus become good models to others ,• and particularly
" that they be always ready to celebrate the sacred offices,
" to communicate proper instructions to the people, and to
" comfort the sick with tlieir assistance; that they by all
" meu/is avoid public assemblies of idle men, and taverns
"  The Vicars themselves are particularly charged
" to punish in such manner as they can, but severely, all
" those who do not speak of the public government zcith
" respect." " England herself can witness the deep-rooted im-
" pressions such admonitions have made on the minds of
" Catholics. It is well known, that in the late war, which
" had extended to the greater part of America, when
" most flourishing provinces, inhabited, almost by per-
" sons separated from the Catholic Church, had re-
" nounced the government of the King of Great-Britain ;
*' the province of Canada alone, filled as it is almost
" with innumerable Catholics, although artfully tempted,
" and not yet forgetful of the old French government,
" remained most faithful in its allegiance to England.
" Do you, most excellent Prelates, converse frequently
" on these principles : often remind your suffragan Pre-
«' lates of them : when preaching to your people, exhort
" them again and again to honour all men, te love the
" brotherhood, to fear God, to honour the king. " Those

81
" Those duties of a Christian are to be cherished in
" every kingdom and state, but particularly in your own
" of Great-Britain and Ireland, where, from the benevo-
" lence of a most wise King, and other most excellent
" rulers of those kingdoms towards Catholics, no cruel
" and grievous burden is imposed : and Catholics them-
" selves experience n mild and gentle government. If
" you pursue this line of conduct unanimously ; if. you
" act in the spirit of charity ; if, while you direct the
" people ofthe Lord, you have nothing in yiew but the
" salvation of souls, adversaries will be ashamed (we re-
" peat it) to calumuiate, and will freely acknowledge that
*' the Catholic Faith is of heavenly descent, and calcu-
" lated not only to procure a blessed life, but likewise,
" as St. Augustin observes in his 138th letter, addressed
" to Mnreellinus, to promote the most lasting peace of
" this earthly city, inasmuch as it is the safest prop and
" shield of kingdoms. Let those who say (the words
" are those ofthe holy Doctor) that the doctrine of Christ
" is hostile to the republic, produce an army of such sol-
" diets as the doctrine of Christ has reejuired ; let them
"furnish such inhabitants of provinces, such husbands,
" such wives, such parents, such children, such masters,
" such servants, such kings, such judges, finally suchpay-
" ers of debts and collectors ofthe revenue, as the doctrine
" cf Christ enjoins ; and then they may dare to assert that
u it is inimical to the republic : rather let them not hesi-
" tate to acknonledge, that it is, when practised, of great
" advantage to the republic. The same holy Doctor,
" and all the other Fathers of the Church, with one
" A'oice, most clearly demonstrate by invincible argu-
" ments, that the whole of this salutary doctrine cannot
"exist with permanent consistency and stability; or
'.' flourish, except in the catholic society ; which is spread
fl '« and

8£
" and preserved all over the world by communion with
" the See of Rome as a sacred bond of union, divinely
" connecting both. From our very high esteem and af-
" fection for you, we earnestly wish that the great God
"' may very long preserve you safe. Farewell*
" Rome, 23 June, 17S)I.
" As your Lordship's most affectionate brother,
" L. Cardinal Antonelli, Prefect.
" A, Archbishop of Aden, Secretary J"
I have here recited an extract of consider
able length, from this document, because the
Honourable Member has himself alluded to a
part of it, Avhere he observes an alteration of
the Pontifical Oath made at the instance of
the Empress of Russia. I could wish a refe
rence may be made to the original Latin,
Avhich Avill be found in Dr. Troy's Work, from
¦which this translation is also selected. — The
Pontifical Rescript for the alteration of the
Pontifical Oath to be taken by the Irish Ca
tholic Prelates is as follows: —
" FKOM AN AUDIENCE HAD OF HIS HOLINESS ON THR
" 9th- day OF JUNE, 1,79 !•*
* The Archbishops metropolitans of the kingdom of
" Ireland represented to his Holiness, that from the ig-
" norance or malice of some persons, certain expressions
" in the form of the Oath prescribed by the Roman Ri-
" tual to be taken by Bishops at their consecration,, and
" by Archbishops on receiving the Pall, have been mis-
" represented ; which has added new perplexities to
• Vide Dr. Troy's Pastoral Address, 1793'.
1 »* these

83
" those which they daily experience in a kingdom where
" the catholic faith is not tbe religion of the state: where-
" fore, they humbly requested, if it should appear expe-
" dient to his Holiness, that he would vouchsafe to apply
" a remedy by some act of his apostolical vigilance. His
" Holiness, on this report being made to him by me the
" underwritten, all circumstances of the case maturely
" considered, was graciously pleased to grant, that the
" Bishops of the kingdom of Ireland, at their consecra-
" tion, and the Archbishops on receiving the Pall, may
rt use the same form of oath, which was taken by the
" Archbishop of Mohilow*, in the empire of the Mus-
" covites, by permission of his said Holiness, and which
" is as follows :
"I A. X. &c. (as in the Roman Pontifical to the
" clause — All Heretics, Schismatics, and Rebels, against
" our said Lord, and his successors aforesaid, I zcill to
" the utmost of my power, prosecute and oppose f 
" which is entirely omitted :) afterwards the words — the
" Cardinal Prefect ofthe Sacred Congregation for pro-
" pagating the Faith, are substituted instead of the Car-
" dinal Proponent in the Congregation of the Sacred
" Council. The form concludes with these words :
" Izzill observe all and every one of these things the more
" inviolably, as I am firmly convinced that there is no-
" thing contained in them, which can be contrary to the
"fidelity lozce to the most serene King of Great-Britain
" and Ireland, and to his successors to the throne. So
* Mohilow was erected into an archbishopric, with a chap
ter, by the Pope Pius VJ. The first Archbishop Stanislaus Sies-
trzenceaez, was appointed in a consistory at Rome, 21st De
cember, 178S, and is still living.
t Bishop of Cloytle's translation. o g " help

" help me God and these holy Gospels of God, Thus I
" promise, and engage.
" Dated at Rome, in the house of the said Sacred
" Congregation, the 23d day of June, 1791.
" L. Cardinal Antoneili, Prefect.
" A. Archbishop Ad-anen, Secretary.''
The Learned Member avi'11 observe, that his
construction of the words " Hcereticos perse-
il guar et impugnabo," is very widely at vari
ance with that Avhich is inculcated by Rome'
herself.  1 should not have been satisfied that
the popular sense, imputed to those AvordSj was
disclaimed by the Catholics of this kingdom, if
the See of Rome had held the contrary; but I
must OAvn that I am, in this instance, perfectly
satisfied with the declaration of Rome itself, as
I read it, thus solemnly made, and as I know
from the most authentic collateral authorities',
that notwithstanding the persecuting spirit
avowed by some individual Avriters, and mani
fested also by some individual Pontiffs, that such'
a spirit is not consistent Avith the recognised
doctrines of the See of Rome.
But, Sir, as I before said, were Ave toholdRometo
these persecuting tenets in consequence of the
spirit manifested by those individuals, Avhat might
not she retort upon us from the conduct of
the Puritans in the 16th century ? The principle
laid doAvn by a Presbytery erected at Wands
worth, in that age, is. stated to be, " that it is1
"lawful to destroy any man- who opposes the
" Gospel."

85
u Gospel.'" — Sir Charles Hatton, afterwards Chan*
cellor, was known to be no favourer of that sect,
and Burchet, one of their elders, undertook to
kill him, but mistaking his man, desperately
wounded one. of the name of Hawkins. By
the terror of a proclamation, and the executiort
of Burchet, this species of proselytism Avas re
strained. What I infer from this is no more,
than that the individual acts of frantic zealots
are not to justify a proscription against any de
scription of religionists in the aggregate, on the
presumption of dangerous tenets and opinions
entertained by them.
I will now, Sir, beg to folloAV the conduct of
Rome a little farther, to the distance of two
years subsequent to the alteration of the Ponti
fical Oath. And here, Sir, I must submit to
the imputation of some degree of egotism ; but
| consider the facts to which I shall refer as
materially illustrating the general argument
Avhich I have endeavoured to support.  But,
it may be here necessary previously to call the
recollection of Gentlemen to the relative situa
tion of the governments of Gre#t Britain and
Jlome. The estrangement Avhich had subsisted
for little less than three centuries, and the exist
ence of highly penal laws, though the occasions
which gave birth to them had long ago ceased
to exist, were apparent obstacles to a friendly
intercourse between the two countries. An event,
however,

86"
however, occurred Avhich at least illustrated the
inutility of such restrictions; — operating as a
sort of admonition against artificial and political
antipathies, and enforcing the Avholesome truth
that states, like individuals, Avere bound toge
ther by the chain of mutual necessities. From
a great failure of the crops, in other parts of
Italy, the Roman state offered the only mate
rial source of supply to our fleet and to many
thousand of our troops in the Mediterranean.
The fleet consisted of 40 sail of men of war, and
there Avere no ordinary official means of provid
ing for the exigency. Being at that period in
Rome, the extent of the necessities experienced
by our army and navy Avere intimated to me,
and my interposition Avitb the Roman gqvern-
ment Avas anxiously solicited. — Prom a long re
sidence at different periods in Italy, and the in
fluence of social habits, strengthened by a family
connexion, I had lived in intimacy with many of
the leading members of the Roman government.
— I scrupled not to make our necessities knoAvii
to the Sovereign Pontiff, Avhose liberality Avas
as eminent, as it was prompt. A supply of grain
and flour Avas immediately granted, equal to the
consumption of 12,000 men, for three months,
with a considerable quantity of cattle,- all free
of the duties of transit, and at a price from 30
to 40 per cent, under that of the market. — The
channel of application thus opened, further sup
plies

87
plies Avere from time to "time as liberally admi
nistered, and afterwards as liberally acknow
ledged by his Majesty's Government *.
I have mentioned this preliminary fact, as
only leading to that intercourse which had a
more immediate relation to objects intimately
connected with the question now before the
House, and to which I shall beg to advert. I
say intimately connetced with the question, as ¦
the conduct of the See of Rome, Avith respect to
this country, has ever been regarded Avith a
Avatchful jealousy at least, and the apprehensions
excited by that consideration, seem, at present,
to .constitute much of the reluctance to admitting
£he prayer ofthe Petition now before us. — But,
Sir, to return to facts. — The speech of a No
ble Lord f in the Irish Parliament had appeared
in several foreign Gazettes, complaining of the
ingratitude and seditious conduct of many Ca
tholics of that kingdom. I Avill not scruple, Sir,
to repeat in this place, what I avowed at the
moment, to the King's Ministers, that I thought
if might be for the advantage of his Majesty's
government, at such a' crisis, that the See of
Rome should not be uninformed of this imputa
tion, which, to a certain extent, might proba
bly be too well founded-— The correspondence
betAvecn the See of Rome and the Prelates of
* Vide Appendix, No. IX. -(The Earl of Portarlington, 1 793.
that

88
that communion, in Ireland, Avas known to be
frequent, and the most wholesome admonitions
had often proceeded from the Roman Pontiff,
as the chief and centre of unity of the Catholic
communion : — no doubt Avas entertained but that
the Roman' Catholic Prelates, and the great mass
of their inferior clergy, would have zealously an
ticipated the sentiments of theirchief pastor on
this occasion ; but the lower classes of those pro*
lessing the Roman communion, had been taught
to believe that the cause of the insurgents Avas
the cause of religion, and patronized by the See
of Rome". The result of this communication
Avas, that the letters Avere addressed to the Irish
Roman Catholic Clergy, expressive " of his
" Holiness 's deep concern and disapprobation of
" the conduct of those ill-advised Catholics, who
" had suffered themselves to be seduced, recalling
" them back to their duly, and admonishing them
" to be aware of the snares laid for them, by those
tl who had no other view but to subvert all rcli-
*' gion and the throne'\." — And here I must re-
* The conviction of a man of the name of Levery, about this
period at Belfast, for administering un oath — '* to be true to the
Duke (Cardinal) of York, and his Committees, has been adverted
to as a presumption that a remnant still remains, active in the
desperate cause of restoring the excluded family, and that the Sen
"/Rome abetted it."
r Vide Appendix, No. IX.
mark,

S9
mark, that this and other letters, dictated ia
the same spirit, from Rome, at this period,
were admitted to have produced very beneficial
effects. I shall state another fact in proof of the rea
diness of the See of Rome to concede to sug
gestions intimately connected Avith the good
order of his Majesty's government. — It Avill
be recollected that there are certain national
establishments at Rome, founded for the educa
tion of his Majesty's Roman Catholic subjects,
and principally to qualify them to officiate as
ecclesiastics in Great Britain and Ireland. The
practice had long obtained to appoint Italian
superiors charged Avith the education of the stu
dents. The national clergy had, for more than
tAventy years, endeavoured to procure a reform
in favour of national superiors, and in this ob
ject they had often been indirectly sanctioned
by the approbation of his Majesty's govern
ment*. Whole seminaries, expressly appropri
ated to the education of British subjects, exist
ed at Rome ; the system and principles incul
cated, necessarily became objects of circumspec
tion. Urged by the entreaties of this de
scription of my fellow subjects, during my resi
dence at Rome, I also considered it my duty to
devote my endeavours to aid the success of so
* Particularly that of Lord North. interesting

so
interesting a reform; and I had the gratifica
tion to see it established by an order of the
late Sovereign Pontiff, and confirmed by hjs
successor. The principle which I considered
as justifiable, and consequently ventured to
urge in support of this reform Avas, — that al
though Rome might reasonably expect or de
mand that the youth, so educated, should be
trained up to the doctrines and discipline of her
own Church, yet, on the other hand, the Bri
tish government had an imperious interest in
securing their early and national attachment to
the civil constitution of the state in which they
were destined to exercise their clerical functions.
From their relation to the British government,
certain high duties necessarily flowed, Avhich.
of course, required a clear discernment of their
extent and obligation. — From Italian superiors
it Avas little probable they Avould be disciplined
to these habits. — No plan to secure this advau-,
tage Avas likely to be so effective as, that of com
mitting to British subjects the superintendance
of these seminaries of education. The Bishops
and Irish Catholic Prelates having themselves
taken the oaths of allegiance, might then be
ansAverable for the superiors of the national col
leges, Avhose nomination was thus transferred to
them, that they should give the same test of
their allegiance, An education conducted on
any

91
any other principle, must necessarily be fo
reign to the manners, the habits, and the
interests of their native country, and to the
claims of its established government. Injustice
to the Cardinal York, it should also be stated
that, after the disorders incident to'the irruption
pf the French, during Avhich a derangement of
ihis system Avas the natural consequence, his
Eminence, probably animated Avith a just sense
of his Majesty's beneficence toAvards him, mani
fested great zeal to effect and complete this reform
under the present Pontificate, and a Superior Avas
afterwards placed at the head of the Scotch Col
lege, who had previously taken the Oaths of Al
legiance, to his Majesty, in Great Britain *.
* It seems that Bonaparte has recently held out a lure to invite
British and Irish Catholics to receive their education in France.
He has issued a decree consolidating all the funds and other pro
perty of the Catholic Seminaries (fpr men) which were confisca
ted at fhe time of Robespierre, into one establishment, which is
fixed in the Rue des Postes and the Rue Ckeval Vert. A Dr.
Welch, a native of Ireland, is appointed President of this college.
Those who had claims on the former establishments, are invited to
send young men to it ; which if they neglect to do before the
middle of next May, they are to forfeit their presentations : and
these conditions have been lately intimated, hy the new President^
to some of his Majesty's subjects in this kingdom. This fact
is well worth the attention of his Majesty's Ministers, who cer
tainly are called upon to provide greater inducements for the
King's Catholic subjects to renounce foreign connexions." — In
Ireland, the Government has been liberal in the establishment of
the College of Maynooth.
When

92
When it is considered, Sir, that the Roman
Catholic population, including Great Britain
and its colonies, cannot be estimated to be less
than five, millions, the education of the Roman
Catholic Clergy can never be regarded with in
difference by an enlightened and provident
government ; nor can the favourable disposition
of Rome itself be an object of secondary or sub
ordinate consideration. Admitting even, that
the prayer of the Petition before us is not such
as should be conceded, how little suited to the
interests of his Majesty's government is much of
the invectiA'e Ave have heard in the course of
this debate ! In a national view, Ave have many
fair motives to cultivate a good understanding
with the Roman government, and I -will not
Suppose, that, because it is nearly at its extreme
point of depression, there is no chance of its
again rising to some consideration even in the
scale of temporal states. — The History of the
Popes, from the earliest ages, presents a. greater
number of instances of revolutions, depositions,
and imprisonments of their persons, even by
Christian Princes, than can be found in the an
nals of any other state whatever. — Whether we
consider the influence Avhich the Supreme Pon
tiff must ever maintain over the minds of a
large majority of those professing the Roman
t:ottimunion, in spirituals ; or whether we are to
1 regard

95
legard him as a temporal prince, possessing a
fertile territory, with convenient ports in the.
Mediterranean and Adriatic Seas, to Avhich,
in a political and commercial view, it may be
of considerable importance to us to have ac
cess on the most favourable terms ; the language
of temperate discussion, at least, is equally -en
joined*. The fallen state of Rome, Avas also, in the
course of this debate, inferred by an Hon. Mem
ber, from the circumstance of the late Popei
Pius VL, being guarded, as it Avas said, by Bri
tish troops in his capital. I advert to it, merely
to demonstrate hoAv much it is the fate that
every transaction connected Avith Rome should
be misrepresented or misunderstood. The fact
alluded to, is, that apart of his Majesty's 12th
regiment of light dragoons was received at Ci-
vitta Vecchia Avith the most marked hospitality
by the late Pope, and entertained, during a pe
riod of three months, in his dominions, after
having solicited and being refused admission
into the ports of our allies. An Honourable
Member f, whom I see in Iris place, commanded
the detachment,- and I know will' bear Avillrng
testimony to the courtesies of the Pontifical
GoA-ernment. — The official notification of the
order which recalled them from the Ecclesiasti-
* Vide Appendix, No. IX.
f Major-General Archdale. cal

9*
cal States* concluded Avith this acknowledge-?
ment: — " We are not the less indebted to the
" friendly and seasonable hospitality by Avhich
" Pius VI. stahds distinguished in Italy, both
" for steady attachment to England, and
" for manliness Avith regard to the common
" enemy*.
Without entering into the details of out inter
course, at this period, Avith the Court and See
of Rome, which Avas incessant and multiplied
from the pressure of our necessities, I am per
suaded that I shall be scarcely censured as de
parting materially from the question, if I adArert,
on this point, to the sentiments of a truly great
man, whose very name is ever impressive of ve
neration within these Avails, though considered
by the learned Member, as " one of the active
'* and able agents of Romef ;" 1 mean the late
Mr. Burke.
" As to what you have done," said he £, " with regard
" to the supply of his Majesty's fleet in the Mediterra-
" nean, there can be no doubt of its propriety. — Cir-
* Extract of a letter from the Right Honourable Sir G. Elliot,
Bart. (riowLord Minto), one of his Majesty's Plenipotentiaries
in the Mediterranean,— to Sir J. C. H. dated St. Fiorenzo,
March 31, 1794. — Vide Appendix IX.
•f See Dr. Duigenan's Speech, Hatchard, page 39-
J In a Letter of the Right Honourable Edmund Burke to Sir
J. C. H. dated loth Oct. 1 793. " cumstances

95
" cumstances may happen to render the good disposi-
'* tion of the government of the country where you
" reside, of great use to the general cause. Nobody
" can be so Very squeamish as to refuse benefits, (n«J-
" thing else will ever be offered by his Holiness) because
" they come from the Pope. He would be an Admiral
" of wonderful theological talents, but of not quite such
" splendid military qualities, who should scruple the
" receipt of those ¦ indigencies called Munitions de
" Guerre et de Bouche, from a Prince Prelate that be-
" fieves in purgatory. — I should not think a great deal
" better of a statesman at home, who, from a disposl-
"¦ tion to polemic divinity, Avas so indifferently quali-
" fied for the conduct of' any other kind of warfare.
" But we have no such Admiral* and no such Mini-
" sters.— I confess I would, if the matter rested with
" me, enter into much more distinct and avowed poli-
" tical connections with the court of Rome than hi-
" therto we have held. If we decline them, the bi-
" gotry will be on our part, and not on that of his Ho-
" Ijness. — Some mischief has happened, and much
" good has, 1 am convinced, been prevented by out
" unnatural alienation. If the present state of the
" world has not taught us better things, our error is
« y^y much our fault. (This good correspondence
" could not begin more auspiciously than in the per-
" son of the present Sovereign Pontiff, who unites the
" Royal and Sacerdotal characters with advantage
" and lustre i to both. He is indeed a Prelate, whose
".dignity as a Pnnce takes nothing from his humility
" as a Priest, and whose mild condescension as a
" Christian Bishop, far from impairing in him, exalts
" the awful and imposing authority of the secular So-
" vereign." I have

96
I have no light gratification, in adverting to
such an opinion, floAving from such a man.
This, Sir, is not the language of the bigoted
Romanist, nor, to borrow the learned Gentle
man's description, * " of the active agent of
" Rome," — " of agents imposing the grossest
"falsehoods on the British Ministry? but of the
wise and provident statesman, vieAving the sub
ject through the medium of an enlightened and
equitable policy.
I shall now, Sir, beg to examine, for a moment,
hoAvfar, in pointoffact, the conduct of the British
Government, in the reign of his present Majesty,
has corresponded Avith the sentiments of those
Gentlemen Avho have argued in favour of the
permanent restrictions resulting, in their appre-
* Vide Dr. DuigenanYSpeech, Hatchard, page 39; — where,
with a reference to the above description, is subjoined this note — ¦
" particularly the late Mr. Edmund Burke." — It shoufd seem
lhat the resident Graduates of the University of
Oxford maintained a very different opinion of Mr. Burke from
that avowed by the learned Gentleman, when they addressed him
in the following words : — " We are persuaded, that we consult
" the real and permanent interests of this place, when we ac-
" knowledge the eminent service rendered, both to our civil
" and religious constitution, by your able and disinte-
" rested vindication of their true principles ; and we obey tke
" yet more sacred obligation to promote the cause of religion
" and morality, when we give this proof that we honour
•' the advocate by whom they are so eloquently and. effectually
" defended." hensiori,

97
hensiori, from the obligations of the coronation
oath. I Avill not go into the argument ; it has
been discussed with great poAvers of reasoning
by those who contend that if the Petitioners
make out their averment, viz. that they enter
tain no principles which are dangerous to soci
ety and civil liberty, — no restraint whatever is
imposed on his Majesty, by his Coronation
Oath, from acceding to the prayer of their
Petition. The repeated concessions of his Majesty in
favour of his Roman Catholic Subjects, in every
part of the world, form one of the most stri
king features of the liberal spirit Avhich has long
distinguished the mild and equitable reign of
his Majesty. The Constitutions of Canada
and Corsica, are characteristic of this beneficent
spirit. The first article of the latter code esta
blishes — " 1st, That the Christian, Catholic,
" Apostolic Roman Religion, in all its evange-
" lical purity, shall be the only national religion
" in Corsica. — -idly, That the Parliament shall
" take measures for the discharge of the func-
" tions of the episcopacy, in concert with the See1
" of Rome. — And 3dly, That other religions
", shall be tolerated *."
* Vide the Constitution of Corsica. Tit. x. Art. 1. 2. 3. —
ratified by His Majesty 1794. II It

98
It is scarcely necessary to call to recollection
the various Catholic Regiments raised and the
Officers commissioned by his Majesty during
the late war. The most remarkable of these was
in the instance of the Glengary Fencibles, raised
in Great Britain; — a Corps in Avhich a Priest of
the Church of Rome* Avas commissioned as
Chaplain. — I would have those Avho rest so
much on the presumed restrictions of the Co
ronation Oath, to form their own estimate hoAv
far these gracious acts of his Majesty are re-
concileable Avith their interpretation of it, and
Avhether his Majesty is not at full liberty, con
sistently Avith his oath, to gratify still further the
expectations of his Catholic subjects, Avithout
trenching on the principles of the Constitution. f
— When
* The Rev. A. M'Donnel : — His commission was. dated,
Aug. 1794. —The Catholic Chaplains ofthe regiments compo
sing the Irish Brigade were equally commissioned by the King.
•f A few days previous to this debate, Sir J.H. received a letter
from a Roman Catholic gentleman residing in the West of En
gland, from which the following is an extract : — " I admit that no
" more solemn and decisive verdict was ever recorded than that, in
" the reign of James II. in favour ofthe prptesting Bishops, de-
" daring their right to remonstrate with the Sovereign in behalf
" of the established Religion of the Country, as by law established,
" yet that verdict, it is clear, could not regard the King, in his
" legislative, but only ia his executive capacity, inasmuch as
"¦it is not in the power of the. Law 'itself, much less of a Jury,
" to take away or restiain the essential prerogatives of any
& " Member

99
¦ — When such have been the recent measures
of his Majesty's Government, can we suppose
that any branch of the Legislature, or that his
Majesty's confidential advisers, should noAV be
actuated by different feelings and different prin
ciples ? — I have heard it, Avitbin a few hours,
argued elsewhere, though certainly not to my
conviction, that the 5th Article of the Union
with Scotland must be violated, if the prayer
of this petition is granted. I cannot see "how
this deduction can be established, especially as
in this sense the 5th Article of the Union with
Scotland would be diametrically opposed to the
4th Article of the Union Avith Ireland, Avhich
says, that the Tests against Catholics shall be
taken " until Parliament shall otherwise pro-
" vide."  In like manner the Union with
Scotland, inasmuch as it sanctioned the Kirk
of Scotland, Avas a violation of Queen Anne's
Coronation Oath, if Ave are to admit this argu
ment.
" Member of the Legislature, whose primary and indispensably
" duty it is to watch at all times over the interests of the Com-
" munity, and to provide such laws as times and circumstances
" require. It certainly cannot be at the option of the Legislative
" Body itsejf to divest themselves of this power, as long as they
" retain their legislative capacity, — i. c. as long as they are con-
" stituted by the community to do for it what they judge to
" be most conducive to its welfare and happiness. If therefore

100
So much has been said both within and with-
out these walls on this subject, that I should
be guilty of great presumption in attempting
to enforce or to enlarge upon those arguments
Avhich have so clearly established both the
right of Parliament to legislate freely, in its
discretion, on this subject, and the sound, as
Avell as equitable policy for carrying into full
effect the spirit of that Fourth Article of the
Union to which I have just adverted, and of
following up that course of Avise and liberal con
cession, which has been so peculiarly charac
teristic of the present reign. God forbid, that
any Member of this House, in assenting to
the Prayer of the Petition before us, under
such modifications as may be deemed advise-
able, should be accused of a Avish to propose
to his Majesty a departure from the solemn
obligation by which he has bound himself
" it should seem meet to the wisdom of Parliament, at present,
"to annul the Test and Corporation Acts, which were not
" found necessary for the support of the Protestant establishment
" for near a century and an half, or to make any other alteration
" in the existing laws, it would, it should seem, be an arrant abuse
" of religion to pretend, that the conscience of our gracious So-
" vereign, in his legislative capacity, and those of the Members
" of either House, are to be disquieted on this consideration.
" And as to the executive capacity of the first Estate, it appears
" indisputable, that it can be bound to nothing beyond what the
' legislature demands and exacts of it." "to

101
" to maintain the Protestant Reformed Reli-
" gion established by law, and to govern the
"people according to the statutes in Parlia-
" ment agreed on, and the laws and customs of
"the realm *."
I will now proceed to tlie consideration of
certain provisions of an act of the 31st of his
present Majesty, the avoAved object of which is
to relieve his Majesty's Roman Catholic Sub
jects from penalties and disabilities imposed
by former statutes. The act in question is
indeed, speaking strictly, an English act ; but
as every subject of his Majesty, of the Roman
Communion, Avhen residing in England, is
equally bound by its provisions, I cannot con
sider the observations which I shall make upon
it as foreign to the subject under discussion.
It has been contended that the free exercise
of their religion has been assured, by the Le
gislature, to Roman Catholics, in every part of
the King's dominions. ¦ — We shall presently see
how far the assertion is warranted by the fact.
With a view to concede Avhat is considered
as complete toleration in favour of those Avho
shall take and subscribe the oath prescribed by
the statute of the 31st of the King, many pro
visions of various enumerated acts, commen
cing with the 1st of Elizabeth, are, in the whole
* Coronation Oath. or

102
or in part, repealed ; — yet the highly penal
act of the 13th of Eliz. ch. 2. is left. entire on
our statute books, and, as I consider it, in full
force. By this it is enacted, that " any person who
" shall get from the See of Rome any Bull,
li-JVri'ting, or Instrument, written or print-
"¦ ed, containing any thing, matter, or cause
"whatever," shall be deemed guilty of high-
treason : — any application to the See of Rome
for such rescripts, by the 25th of Henry
VIII. subjects the person so applying to a
Praemunire : —and, " the importation of beads,
" crosses. §c. and offering them to be worn or
" used, by any person, " also subjects the
" offender to the penalties of Praemunire, by
the same statute of Elizabeth, — Yet need I say
that such procurations and importations are
of daily occurrence, and that Bulls, Writings,
and Instruments, from the See of Rome, are
considered by Roman Catholics, in various
cases, as essential to the -exercise of their re
ligion? — Such, for instance, as the reneAval
of the extraordinary faculties granted to the
British Roman Catholic Prelates : — for dis
pensations likewise in cases of matrimony,
within the second degree of consanguinity,
and in a variety of other instances of fre
quent occurrence, in conformity to the estar
blished

103
Wished practice and discipline of the Church
of Rome.
Those who are alarmed at the possible en
croachments of the See of Rome, contend in fa
vour of the 13th of Eliz. that it constitutes the
only substantial bulwark to protect us against
the introduction and promulgation of Papal Re
scripts, hostile to our establishment in Church
and State: — yet the prohibition, in'mass, of
all Bulls, Writings, Sec. from Rome, mili
tates against the spirit and avoAved object of
the act of the 31st of his Majesty, inasmuch
as the " rites, practice, and observance of the
" Roman Catholic Religion,"' to use the Avords
of that act, cannot be said to be fully tole
rated, if a correspondence with the See of
Rome, Avhich is deemed essential to its disci
pline, remains proscribed.
But in fact, the severity of the act of Eliza
beth has defeated itself, as unnecessary rigour
ever does, for penalties may be carried so far,
and be so oppressive, as in the laws of Draco,
that none will be found to execute the law ; so
that if we are to admit any hostile disposition
on the part of the Roman Pontiff, noAV or at
any time, we are more exposed to suffer from it,
as far as an injury can be attempted through
the medium of such missive Avritings, than if
no such laAV had ever been enacted. It does not

104
not appear indeed that either in Scotland or
Ireland any similar statute exists. A statute
of his present Majesty enacts, that Ireland
thenceforth shall be bound only by her OAvn
laws, and nearly at the same period an act
passed, enumerating certain English acts as ob
ligatory on Ireland — this highly^ penal statute
of the 13th of Elizabeth was not of that num
ber. — I conceive that the act of the 31st of
the King, which professes to give complete
toleration to such of his Majesty's Roman Ca
tholic subjects as take the prescribed oath,
leaves the interdiction of intercourse Avith the
See of Rome in the same state as if that act
had never passed, and that the loth of Eliza
beth still bears equally on all Catholics casu
ally or permanently resident in this part of the
United Kingdom, Avhether they take the oath«
or not.
Much as I am disposed to favour the objects
of the Petition before the House, and much as
my feelings are abhorrent from the penalties of
the act to Avhich I have just now adverted, I
am by no means adverse to tbe principle that
gave birth to them. — I would wish to be con
sidered as not less jealous of a foreign inter
ference and abuses, than our ancestors were in
the days of Edward III. and Richard IL from
which period the statutes of provisors and prae
munire

105
munire take their date ; and though my view of
the subject Avith respect to the mischief to be
apprehended from the admission of a' foreign
Primacy, in Spirituals, is very different from
those in general Avho oppose the present ques
tion, I Avill meet them in a Avish to institute a
solid and rational barrier against any possible
encroachment of the See of Rome, in the
place of those visionary guards, Avhich counter
act their oavu purposes from their sanguinary
tendency. By instituting regulations to this end, we
shall be countenanced by the practice of, I
believe, nearly every other European state,
Catholic or Protestant, and the Noble Vis
count, who conducted the arrangements of the
Union, will do me the justice to recollect that
I urged the adoption of such regulations as I
would now propose, - when the Catholic subject
was known to have occupied much of the atten
tion of the King's Ministers, and " the esemp-
" tion of the Irish Roman Catholics from the
" remaining disabilities, (as avoAved by my
" Honourable Friend then in the Cabinet) Avas
" the principal object of those who concurred
*' Avith the measure of the Union*."
The repeal of the 1 3th of Elizabeth, ch. 2.
J then stated as necessarily enjoined by the
* Vide Mr. Windham's Speech. purview

106
purview of the act of the 3 Ist of his present
Majesty, ch. 32. and in lieu thereof. I proposed
the enacting that no Bull, nor other Papal Re
script, containing any ordinances of the See of
Rome, should be circulated or published till after
it had been transmitted to one of his Majesty's
Secretaries of State, or some other appointed
officer, and in certain cases also be laid before
his Majesty's Privy Council, if thought expe
dient, to Avhich such Prelates as were of the
Council should be specially summoned. — If, on
due examination, those instruments contained
only the ordinary faculties or regulations of
internal discipline,, they should be Certified,
without delay, by the officer appointed, as con
taining nothing contrary to the establishment
in Church or State. — A regulation of this de
scription might, Avith facility, be so modified,
as, to give perfect satisfaction to his Majesty's
Roman Catholic subjects, by avoiding all un
necessary and vexatious interference or delay,
and, at the same time, to afford complete secu
rity to the Establishment.
Another regulation, suggested at the same
period, was that any Roman Catholic Priest
or Schoolmaster applying to be licensed under
-the aqt of the 31st of the King, should, in
addition to the Oath of Allegiance therein.
prescribed, produce a certificate from his
immediate

107
immediate Superior, if a Priest, or from some
known respectable persons, if a layman, attest
ing his good moral character, and attach
ment to the civil constitution of the state; —
Avhich certificate should be authenticated by the
nearest resident Magistrate, and in conse
quence of Avhich the licence should then be
granted as in the manner noAV directed. — As
the laAV now stands, any Priest or School
master, merely on his own avowal, however
notoriously bad his character may be, provi
ded he scruple not to take the oath, may demand
a licence on paying one shilling for his certifi
cate. — It is unnecessary to observe that the
law is not so loose with respect to the Clergy
and Schoolmasters professing the established
religion, in view to Avhose functions, testimo
nials and certificates are the required qualifi
cations. And further Avith respect to the statute of
the 13th of Elizabeth: —by not enforcing its
provisions, Avhich Ave are constrained to connive
at from their excess of severity, we tacitly
permit the circulation of every sort of papal.
instrument Avithout resorting to those safe
guards Avhich other states, as I have observed,
have Avisely instituted. — Those Avho are ap
prehensive that the rescripts of the Thuilleries
may be occasionally imposed upon us in the guise of

108
of decretals of tlie Vatican, Avill necessarily be
alive to the possible abuse of a Avant of some ra
tional and practical restriction.
The restrictions to which I allude, are in
strict conformity to the provident institutions
of the old Galiican Church, ever jealous ofthe
encroachments of Rome, and her privileges de
pended on two prominent maxims: — 1st, That
the Pope had no authority to order, or interfere
in any thing, in which the civil rights of the
kingdom Avere concerned : — 2dly, That not
withstanding the Pope's Supremacy Avas acknOAv-
Iedged, in cases purely spiritual, yet jn other
respects his poAver was limited by the decrees of
the ancient Councils of the Realm. — — The su
preme Council of Provence, in the year 1482,
decreed — "That no letters coming from foreign
"jurisdictions, though only in spirituals, should
" be executed without the ratification of the
" court."—  In consequence of these recogni
sed principles, it was provided that every rescript
from Rome should be presented to one of the
Courts of Parliament, where it Avas examined,
lest it should, contain any thing hostile to the
"' Privileges of the Galiican Church, and the
" temporal Rights of the Crown."  It after-
wards became current, under a certificate, as a
matter of mere ecclesiastical discipline.
The Calvinistic States of the United Pro
vinces

109
vinces regulated their conduct with respect to
their subjects of the Roman Communion on
similar principles. — The nomination even of a
Cure (or Parish Priest) Avas certified by the
Arch-Priest to the Provincial Magistrate, and
if objected to, another Avas appointed. — But
indeed, regulations analogous to those proposed,
obtain in almost every state in Europe *.
The adoption of such regulations Avould fully
meet the object of the 13th of Elizabeth, di
gested of its sanguinary provisions. While it
remains unrepealed, the toleration held out by
the act of the Slst of his Majesty is illusory,
as recourse to the See of Rome in certain in
stances, as I have stated, is not to be a\7oided,
consistently Avith Catholic discipline. — I could
state the testimony of a truly great man f, now
unfortunately no more, one indeed of the great
est and wisest men that ever had the honour of
a seat Avithin these Avails, Avho Avas himself de
terred from receiving a letter, purely compli
mentary, addressed to him by the late Pontiff
Pius VI. by the interdiction of this formidable
statute. At the same period \ letters came ad
dressed to his Majesty, Avhich Avere withheld,
* In the kingdom of Naples, though a fief of the Church, si
milar regulations were instituted and often put in force with, great
rigour. t The Right Hon. E. Burke. J 1793. probably

110
probably from the same consideration. — This
statute may perhaps be classed Avith such of our
laws as my Lord Bacon, I think, somewhere
calls " long-sleepers." — But Avho will say that
these sleeping terrours Avill never be awakened?
or, to use the Avords of Blackstone, speaking of
the penal statutes against Catholics — "it ought
" not to be left in the breast of every merciless
" bigot, to drag down the vengeance of these
" occasional laws, upon inoffensive though
" mistaken subjects, in opposition to the lenient
" inclinations of the civil Magistrate, and to
" the destruction of every principle of tolera-
" tion and religious liberty*." — We must recol
lect that obsolete statutes, Avhich lay dormant
for near two centuries, Avere called into action
within the last feAv years, to ground, proceedings
against the clergy for non-residence. " At least,"
(as I could not refrain from observing on ano
ther occasion, Avhen speaking of the harsh and
impolitic provisions of this statute of Elizabeth, )
" there can be no security against their en-
" forcement, so long as theological rancour and
" polemical hatred inflame the heart of man. — -
" Our security is not to be sought for in prohi-
" bitions so repugnant to the temper and spirit
" ofthe age ; — in statutes dictated by other cir-
" cumstances, in other times, — and Avhich now
* Vide Blackstone's Comm. Vol. 4. ch. 4. " throw

in
" throw a sanguinary hue over our wise and
" healthful institutions." — " In his neque fidu-
" cia, neque securitas, neque spes." 
As so much misconception and misrepresenta
tion has obtained, with respect to the different
forms of the Roman Church Government, as
existing in the different parts of the United
Kingdom, I conceive it to be of considerable
importance to state, distinctly, in what that dif
ference consists. — It has been Aery recently
intimated, in another place, that it Avould be
desirable that the practice of the Roman Catho
lic religion in Ireland, as to this particular,
should be put on the same footing as it is in
Great Britain. It has been signified also, that
the influence of Rome on her hierarchy in Ire
land, Avas greater than on that here, and that it
could be more easily directed to dangerous pur
poses. — I confess I was much surprised to hear
that these opinions were to be traced to so high
an authority, as I conceive that a very little
examination into the subject would have esta
blished a conviction directly the reverse.
In Great-Britain, the Church Government
of the Roman Catholics is vested in Vicars-
Apostolic, with the rank of Bishops in parti-
bus * — that is, deriving their titles from ancient
Sees, mostly in the East, and having no ordi-
* In partibus infidelium. nary

112
nary jurisdiction. ¦ — In Ireland, the Roman Ca
tholic Bishops exercise the ecclesiastical power
of ordinaries. The Vicars- Apostolic are dele
gated by the See of Rome, and removeable at
pleasure. — The Bishops Ordinaries, once ap
pointed, can only be removed for some great
canonical offence, proved upon them by- process,
canonically instituted. The Vicars-Apostolic
can by their special faculties suspend or remove
the inferior clergy, at their pleasure : — the Bi
shops ordinaries, though they appoint, cannot
suspend or remove them but fpr canonical of
fences, which also must be canonically proved.
Now, Sir, so far I am from agreeing with
the Noble Lord in a Avish to promote such a
change as he professes to think desirable in
Ireland, that I shall ever be of opinion that
Avhile Ave are necessarily/obliged, in justice and
policy, to tolerate, at least, the practice of the
Roman Catholic religion among any part of
our fellow subjects, it Avould be highly desirable
that the superior Clergy should exercise an or
dinary jurisdiction, circumscribed and limited
by the knoAvn canons of the Church, in spiri
tuals, rather, than, as the case is at present in
England, a vicarial and indefinite authority from
the See of Rome. — Were the constitution of the
Roman Church Government the same in Great-
Britain as in Ireland, we certainly should find the

113
the possible interference of foreign authority re
moved to a still greater distance, by thus getting
rid of vicarial, or delegated power, that delega
tion being, to use the Pontifical phrase, — " Ad
" nostrum et sedis Apostolicce beneplacitum." —
I must, again repeat, no such delegation exists in
Ireland. I shall beg to pursue this subject a little fur
ther, as it seems to be so much misconceived,
and as the prejudices, resulting from that mis
conception, have been so injuriously operative.
The Vicars- Apostolic, though agents of the See
of Rome, are not invested Avith those canonical
rights Avhich are considered as inherent in Bi
shops ordinaries. — They have no power to deli
berate Avhether they shall publish a Bull from
tlie See of Rome or not ; — they must obey. — If
a Bull is canonically published, the great mass
of Catholics consider it as binding on their con
sciences, provided it be not contrary to their
allegiance. — Bishops ordinaries, such as those of
the Roman communion in Ireland, have an un-
questionablecanonical poAver to receive or reject
any Bull from the See of Rome, which they
may deem objectionable; in many of the Ro
man Catholic Dioceses in Ireland the discipline
of the celebrated Council of Trent has never
been canonically received and published. We
know that many Cathplics of this part of tlie
r United

114
United Kingdom, have expressed their appre
hensions of a possibly mischievous interference
ofthe See of Rome, and alledge that, having
independent duties to acquit, they require a
more independent Church Government Avithin
themselves. ¦ — I do not wish here to enter into an
examination of the different opinions entertained
by Catholics on this subject; I speak only to the
fact that, in this respect, a considerable number
of Roman Catholics in Great Britain have ex
pressed a Avish to be so far on a footing Avith
their fellow-subjects of Ireland. — The Apos
tolic-Vicars themselves also must naturally in
cline to such a reform, as investing them with an
authority more agreeable to themselves, and
more congenial to the principles of the con
stitution of their country.
I can speak Avith the greater confidence on
this point, it being one of the many considera
tions connected Avith this important subject, on
Avhich I have heard much discussion, both in this
country, and also many years since, from the
highest authorities in the quarter from which the
reform must originate, if at all. — lam per
suaded also that there are many Prelates of the
Established Church Avho view it in the same
light, and are of opinion, that regulations might
be made Avithout difficulty, to guard against any
possible encroachment of the See of Rome on
the

115
the national Church, either in name, power or
dignity. — With equal confidence I can affirm,
that it Avould not have been opposed in the quar
ter to which I have alluded, if it had been con
sidered as a reform, sanctioned Avith the concur
rence of his Majesty's Government*.
Iii'this vieAv of the subject it is difficult to
conceive how a preference can be given to the
delegated Roman Ecclesiastical Government
obtained- in Great-Britain, though exercised,
as it is, by Prelates of approved and exemplary
loyalty, to the exclusion of that canonically
regulated system Avhich is subject, in the in
stances I have described, comparatively, to
much less dependence on a foreign jurisdiction.
And now, Sir, speaking of the Roman Ca
tholic hierarchy, I beg to examine the subject
a little further, and I am the more induced to
do so, as an Honourable and learned Member f,
who spoke with great temper and intelligence,
has entertained an opinion that his Majesty,
instead of the See ofRpme, should, in future,
nominate to the vacant Sees of Bishops of the
Roman Communion, and has asked my Honour-
* In a conference, in 1 794, on this subject, with the Cardinals
Zelada and Antonelli (the Secretary of State and Prefect of
Propagand. F.), their Eminences declared such to be the disposi
tion of the See of Rome.
t Mr. Lee, Member for the County of Waterford.
I % able

116
able friend (who has this day moved the ques
tion) " to what extent the Catholics would go in
" this respect? — I conceive, Sir, that neither
the Catho-lics could consistently concede such
an innovation, nor could his Majesty consist
ently assume such an unprecedented exercise of
power*; — but the Avholesome end Avhich the
learned Gentleman had in view, might easily be
attained by another regulation, though not di
rectly by the means he has proposed.
In the vacancy of any titular Roman Catho-
* Mr. Barke in his " Letter to a Peer of Ireland on the Penal
" hains of Catholics" — speaking of the measure then suggested,
of giving to the Castle, the patronage of the presiding Members
ofthe Catholic Clergy, thus expresses himself: — " Never were
" the members of one religious Sect fit to appoint Pastors to
" another. Those who have no regard for their welfare, repu-
" tation, or internal quiet, will not appoint such as are proper.
" The Seraglio of Constantinople is as equitable as we are, whether
' ' Catholics or Protestants ; and where their own Sect is concerned1,
*' full as religions ; but the sport which they make of the miserable
'' Dignities of the Greek Church, the factions ofthe Haxam, t&
" which they make them -subservient,, the continual sale to which
" they expose and re-expose the same Dignity, and by which
" they squeeze all the inferior orders of the Clergy, is nearly
" equal to all the other oppressions together, exercised by Musi-
" selmen over the unhappy members of the Oriental Church.. —
" It is a great deal to suppose that the present Castle would no-
" rrunate Bishops for the Roman Church of Ireland, with a re-
" ligious regard for its welfare. Perhaps they cannot; — per-
" haps they dare not do it, &c. &c."— Burke's Works, Vol. VI.
p. 290. lie

117
lie diocese in Ireland, the Chapter elects a
Vicar-capitular, to govern it per interim, and
having what is termed the right of postulation ;
the Chapter also recommends three persons to
the See of Rome, and confirmation Avith the
permission of being ordained is granted to one
of them ; — generally to the first on the list. 
The titular Deans are also appointed by the
Pope, on the recommendation of their respective
Diocesans, and in this instance also a Papal
Bull is necessarily expedited. — Among the vari
ous regulations I ventured to suggest to his
Majesty's Government, at that period to Avhich
I before alluded, antecedent to the Union, Avas
one, providing that in future all Lists of persons^
recommended to fill vacant titular Sees or Dean
eries, previous to their transmission to Rome,
should be communicated to his Majesty's Mi
nisters, stating the particular clerical situation
or charge, residence, and other circumstances-
connected with each person so recommended. —
It is certain that by the Concordat between
Francis I. and Pope Leo X. this Monarch se
cured to the crown the nomination to all the
vacant Bishoprics within the realm, leaving
merely the formulary of collation to Rome. 
In a Protestant Government Ave cannot see the
same direct facility : but from the adoption of
the measure suggested, there is no doubt but the
names

118
names, thus submitted to Government, would be
unexceptionable as to their choice. — I have
stated the practice heretofore obtaining in the
United Provinces, Avhenany exception was taken
to the persons nominated. — We Avill not sup
pose, with respect to the particular appoint
ment, that it could be wished to be made an
object of state patronage. — I could, however,
without difficulty, point out several instances
(and indeed I have already adverted to two such)
where Rome has invariably fixed her choice on
the individual Avho was represented as carrying
with him the countenance of his Majesty's Mi
nisters*. — Were we to go into a Committee, I
should think the occasion favourable for ad
ducing many other heads of regulation which I
conceive to be usefully connected with the con
cession of the objects of the Petition — so ne
cessary, in my own opinion at least, that I
should not think myself justified in voting ulti
mately in favour of that concession, if unac
companied Avith provisions of a similar ten
dency; and, under the influence of the same opi
nion, they were submitted to the consideration
of his Majesty's Ministers, while the great mea
sure of the Union was then pending. I should
hope that no Catholic subject of his Majesty
* In the instances of Dr. Troy and Dr. Hussey. Others
also might be named. Avould

119
would imagine that those regulations were sug
gested from my thinking less favourably of the
mass of the Roman Catholics of this kingdom,
than of those of the established communion. —
I am persuaded that such regulations would not
be considered, even at Rome, as incompatible
with the acknowledgment of its Spiritual Su
premacy:  But, in acknoAvledging that su
premacy, I cannot participate in the alarms of
an Honourable and learned Member *, who con
siders the " Papistry, " as he terms it, of the
Roman Catholics, more formidable in Ireland
at present, than before the Revolution. — If
it be so, let us meet the evil with Avholesome
and practicable provisions, extending equally to
every part of the United Kingdom. — Cease
then to stigmatize Avith the most opprobrious
epithets, the Sovereign Pontiff. — Do not any
longer hold out, in the pages of our Rubric,
the terrours of Popish Plots, to no other end
than to create uncharitable distinctions, and
excite lawless riot, — Our James the 1st felt no
difficulty in corresponding with this dreaded
Pontiff, nor in acknoAvledging him as the first
of Christian Bishops in rank and dignity — nor
in styling him the Patriarch of the West. —
We must admit, in favour of the great mass of
* Mr. Alexander. our

120
our Catholic felloAV subjects, that their Bishops
must have their mission from him, and that re
course in all (Avhich they term) the greater
causes must be had to him; but, as I have ob
served, let us guard that intercourse, and fence
it Avith the most rational and secure barriers
against any possible encroachment that can be
made upon our Constitution, after the example
of other states Avho have manifested an equal
jealousy to preserve their rights and liberties,
civil and ecclesiastical, from violation. — I
agree however with the same Honourable and
learned Member in a conviction that " without
" a knoxvledge of the Catholic doctrines, and of
" the influence of those doctrines, the question
" cannot be fairly understood, and that wilful
" or assumed ignorance of their opinions is un-
" justifiable in a Gentleman agitating such a
" question *." — Impressed with this conviction,
I haA'e endeavoured to call the attention of the
House to those doctrinal opinions Avhich were
supposed most to clash with the spirit of our
OAvn civil establishment. — I should have gone
further into that part of the subject, had it not
been so ably treated by some of my friends on
this side of the House. — I could Avish most
¦sincerely that every Member, before he gives
* Vide Mr. Alexander's Speech, p.69. — Cuthell's Edition* his

121
his vote on this important question, Avould re
sort to the three Questions proposed to the prin
cipal Foreign Universities, in the year 1788,
with the answers returned to them. These are
so pointed and full, that, I own, I cannot fancy
a mind so constituted as not to derive complete
conviction from them, — a conviction, I mean,
to say, that no recognised principle of the Ro
man Catholic Religion is incompatible with the
duties of good citizens and good subjects of the
realm. Those questions were put by the Com
mittee commissioned by the body of English
Catholics, at that period, to solicit and promote
the repeal of the statutes then in force against
them. The Minister*, it is understood, was per
fectly satisfied with regard to the sentiments of
that body itself, but expressed a desire to know,
whether, in making the declarations Avhich they
then made, they had not departed from the ge
neral tenets of the Roman Catholic Church? —
To afford his Majesty's Ministers, and the nation
in general, the most complete evidence which
could be obtained on this head, it was considered
by them that nothing could be more effectual
than to propose those Questions in the manner
that was done. — As they have already been ad
verted to in this House, and in another place, I
* Mr. Pitt.
ic will

122
Avill not repeat them; — but I will content my
self with observing, that the ansAvers given by
the several learned Faculties contain the most
irrefragable refutation of all the charges hitherto
adduced against the civil and social principles
of Roman Catholics, as Catholics and as mem
bers of a Protestant State, that Avords can
convey*. It is unnecessary to go further into the gene
ral subject, which has been so ably treated by
my Honourable Friend both in his opening and
reply, and in which the policy and expediency
of the concession have been so luminously de
monstrated; I will conclude such observations,
as I conceived, from circumstances to which I
alluded, it was peculiarly my duty to offer on
this subject, Avith giving my hearty assent to the
motion for going into a Committee. Some mo
difications of existing Statutes affecting the se
curity of the Roman Catholic part of the com
munity, even in the participation of those pri
vileges which were meant to be assured to them
by LaAV, I conceive, in justice and honour, are
to be no longer withheld, and in the Committee
moved for, that part of the subject can be most
advantageously discussed.
If the admission of Roman Catholics to a full
• Vide Appendix — " The Three Questions" Sec.
participation

123
participation of civil privileges be a question
which must be considered with an assiduous re
ference to the circumstances of the times Avhen
they are asserted, yet we are bound $ver to re
collect that civil protection and civil obedience
are reciprocal duties, and that the exclusion of
large bodies of men from the general franchises,
narroAvs the basis of the social and political fa-
brick. To the general Question therefore, when
ever it may be thought most adviseable to bring
it forward, I shall think it my duty on these
principles to give my affirmative, with the reser
vations I have premised ; — And I cannot grant
that assent upon a stronger and truer principle
than that expressed by the great Statesman
whose Avords I have more than once quoted. —
" Our Constitution," says he, " is not made
" for great, general, proscriptive exclusions : —
" sooner or later it will destroy them, or they
" will destroy the Constitution."
• Vide Letter of Mr. Burke to Sir Hercules Langrishe,
Bart. 1792.

FINIS.

J. Brettell, Printer,
Marshall- Street, Golden-S<]uar«.

APPENDIX.

The following interesting Letters were received since the
Publication of the Speeches cf the Bishop of St. Asaph,
Dr. Duigenan, and Lord Redesdale. — The numeral
References in Dr. 'Troy's Letter refer to the Edi
tion of Dr. Duigenan's Speech published by Hat
chard, and of Lord Redesdale 's by Clarke and Sons.

[No. L]

From Dr. Troy, titular R. C. Archbishop ofDublin,_
to Sir J. C. Hippisley, Bart. M. P.
Dated Dublin, 12 June, 1805,
MY DEAE SIE, 1 Have the honour
to acknowledge your esteemed letter, enclosing a
printed report of the Bishop of St. Asaph's Speech upon
Lord Grenville's recent Motion in favour of the R.
Catholics, and desiring some information from me on
that subject. 1 had previously seen the newspaper report
of his Lordship's Speech, as well as that by his Grace

the Archbishop of Canterbury, and those ofthe other
Prelates ; and, while I regretted their opposition, it was
impossible for me not to be deeply penetrated by the
candour, moderation, and chrislian-lilte feelings evinc
ed in their manner of opposing it.
With respect to this particular Speech, I own I do
not much wonder, that the honest mind of the learned
and respectable Speaker of it should have conceived
some alarm from the description of the Catholic Hie
rarchy of Ireland, to which he has alluded.' When he
heard strong' and hardy assertions uttered by a learned
Lord, he could not possibly have been aware, that
those assertions were inaccurate, and even opposite to
facts, which could have been proved at the Bar ofthe
House. It gives me pain to contradict the positions of
a Nobleman holding a high legal office urfder the
King ; but had that learned Lord condescended to re
quire correct information from any of the Catholic
Clergy or respectable laity upon those subjects, (which
I must presume he did not) I cannot but persuade
myself, that he would never have uttered those mis
statements, which appear to have operated so forcibly
upon tbe Bishop of .St. Asaph's mind, and to have de»
•termined his vote to reject, in limine, the Catholic
Petition. In fact, the. actual state of the Catholic Hierarchy
jin Ireland bears very little resemblance with the de
scription of it given by the learned Lord. We do not
claim jurisdiction in exclusion of the legal claims of the
established Prelacy and Priesthood. We do not treat
the Prelate* or Priests of the Established Church as
Usurpers or Intruders. No Catholic Archbishop pub
licly takes to himself such a title as Armachens, or desig-
patesthe Lord Primate by the simple and rude misnomer
©f Doctor Stuaa'r., On the contrary, we concede and ap-

3
ply to them in allour intercourse and daily conversa
tion in society, all their titles, precedence, privileges,
jurisdiction, and authority, as claimed by themselves,
and as confirmed by the laws of the land. We have
never denied or refused to them those distinctions. We
might solicit, and we do not- fear a scrutiny of our con
duct in this respect. We appeal to the testimony of
our neighbours and countrymen of whatsoever per
suasion. JHoBishopor Priest pf the Established 'Church
has made any such complaint, that I have heard of, in
public or' in private life, as is, now brought forward
against us; aqd that at a time, and in a place, and by
a personage the most unlikely to have entertained so
strong and unfounded an accusation. Is .it. likely, that
auch improprieties, if real, would have remained dor
mant, undiscovered, and unpunished, through the
entire reign of the active, and vigijant Popery Code,
and should only have been brought to light by that
learned Lord, who, as I understand, maintains little
or no intercourse with lioman Catholics of any de
scription ?
Having repelled, by a total and emphatical denial,
those noyel imputations of assumed rank, I come to
the manner, in which (as the Bishop states the learned
Lord to have informed the House) we exercise our spi
ritual authority. And here again, I am sorry to find,
that we have been so unfortunate as to incur the repre
hension of a most benevolent man for crimes, which
exist only in the speech of our accuser.
That " Excommunication from the Catholic Church
" is, with us, not simply a separaiion from the body
" of the faithful, but to all intents and purposes an
" interdiction ab igne et aqua," is pertainly altogether
untrue ; I will add, that it is ridiculously so, and most
notoriously. Equally untrue, in every possible sense or
extenuation, are the other assertions adverted to by
a2

his Right Reverend Lordship, that " No Catholic
" dares to administer a crust of dry bread or a cup of
" cold water, or any other necessary sustenance, to ah
"¦ excommunicated person." And that the offence
which draws down this sentence is " any friendly in-
" tercourse, which a Catholic may be found to hold
" with Protestants." - v
It might possibly be sufficient for your own private
satisfaction, lo have thus negatived, as I have done,
those statements; but asthegood opinion of the Bishop
of St. Asaph, andof the other Bishops of. the Estab
lished Church, is what we are bound to seek for, by
the obligation of our ministry, and by our gratitude as
honest men ; and as I should never cease to lament,
that the loss of that good opinion should be occasioned
by those statements upon a subject, which needs not to
shun the light, I beg leave to add a few observations
relative to the Catholic Hierarchy of Ireland.
The Christian Prelate, whose Speech I have before
me, says of us, and without disapprobation, " I have
" long understood that the Roman Catholic Clergy of
" Ireland were upon a different footing from their bre-
" thren here. I knew that in Ireland each province.
(c has its titular Archbishop, each diocese its titular.
" Bishop, and each parish its titular Priest ; but I had
" no conception, till a Noble and Learned Lord in-
" formed me of it, that these titular Prelates claim, &c."
 It is very true, as the Bishop understood it. In
every class of Christians, and in every religious com
munion, there is some sacred government, some eccle
siastical rank or hierarchy, how wide soever the dif
ference may be in the names by which this govern
ment, order, or rule is denoted.
For the purposes of securing, or preserving a succes
sion of ministers, of fixing the rights of their respec-
jive communions, of maintaining internal subordination

by the authority and acknowledged jurisdiction of su
periors,, of restraining from crime by religious admo
nition and authoritative censure, they have established
modes of ordaining or appointing ministers, gradations
of orders, and regulations ii) their conduct for cor
recting or excluding from their communion, jn sacred
things, the scandalous, impious, and refractory, whose
had example, may be noxious. All these and other
points 'of internal regulation and discipline are in some
degree common to all churches, whether established or
dissenting. The Dissenters, I mean Protestant Dissenters in the
united kingdom, have their Congregations, their Dis
tricts, their Synods, Inspectdrs, Elders, Moderators,
Readers, &c. In the Roman Catholic Church of Ire
land, therefore, not consisting merely of a handful of
gentry, traders, artisans, and labourers, as in England,
but comprising an immense portion of the people, there
does exist, and has long existed, a gradation of clergy,
with competent powers to officiate in appropriated dis
tricts, such as tlie Bishop has noticed, more or less ana
logous to that of other dissenters.
And surely it will not be alleged by any person,-
not prepossessed against the sacred character generally,-
that the existence of such a CathoIio.Ck.rgy and Priest
hood in Ireland can be injurious to the moral or poli
tical principles of the people, or that dt is not rather
highly beneficial to both. Long experience and con
stant observation have fully satisfied me, that our
Hierarchy, unendowed, unsalaried, unpatronized as
It is, yet zealous in the discharge of solemn and
charitable duties, i* entitled, (if the word be not
arrogant) to he spoken of without such an excess of
contumely, as the broadness of those slanders compels
us to feel, we are thought low and friendless enough to-
be subjected to.

6
Witty respect to the exercise of this power of ex
communication, so far is it from being directed against
every Roman Catholic, who holds friendly intercourse
with Protestants, that on the contrary, no social inter
course whatever with Protestants, however friendly or
intimate, is in itself a subject of any censure what
soever. Do we not daily associate with Protestants,
and form the closest alliances with them r Are not very
many, of the Catholics intimately acquainted with
their protestant brethren, their partners in trade, their
tenants, their landlords, their customers, their agents,
their servants, their friends or companions in. private
life ? Do we not mutually partake of the hospitality of
each other ; clergy with clergy, laymen with lay
men, in numerous mixed companies of different reli
gions and occupations ? Nay, in the archdiocese of
Dublin there are at this moment, to my own know
ledge, Catholics, who have been married to Protestants
by Protestaut Clergymen only ; yet these persons, so far
from having been denounced as excommunicated, are
constantly in the habit of frequenting our chapels, of
joining in our rites, and of receiving the sacraments ia
our church. .
In fact, this, sentence is hot pronounced, as has bee^
suggested, frequently, or on light causes. It is re7
served, as the punishment of crimes of gross enormity
or turpitude. I have been particularly connected for
19 years past, with the archdiocese pf Dublin, in which,
from the vicious habits of a great capital, the most frer
quent instances may be supposed to have occurred ; yet I
have known only two instances of excommdication. The
one was a case of public incest : the pther, equally crip
minal and notorious. My excommunication of such Car
tholics of the archdiocese as were= actually concerned in
the rebellion of 1798, was declaratory and positive ; and
«0Uirr.;aatory in regard to suclfof them as might engage

in it afterwards. In the lime of my predecessor, th^
late Doctor Carpenter, a period of about 17 years
only two instances occurred, and one of them upon the
marriage of a nun. Yet none of these persons so ex
communicated have, I believe, experienced any tem
poral punishment or privation from it. Some of them
continue in trade or business as before ; they are
not molested, and they meet and deal with their
Catholic neighbours like other people. The un
happy individuals are known. The so much exag
gerated cruelty of this punishment is, in fact, li
mited, as the Bishop defines it, to "the separation of
" a Christian leading a -disorderly life disgracing his
" profession, from the christian congregation; a banish-
" ment of him from the church." It amounts amongst
us to neither more nor less, than the removal ofa member
of any other religious society, as of a Quaker or other
dissenter from his respective congregation, would,' I
apprehend, amount to in such a society. There ensue*
no interdict against any other persons communicatino¦
with the expelled member in temporals, except so far
as such communion extends to and manifests a wanton
and contumacious encouragement or approbation pf the
jnisconduct so punished. Hence, therefore, the ex
communicated person retains his claim to all the offices
«f charity, to relief in his necessities, to maintain the
ordinary relations of society, as sovereign, subject, fa
ther, husband, master, servant, soldier, trader, &c. &c.
Even in Catholic countries the exceptions to the temporal
effects of excommunication are so many and so compre
hensive, they are construed with so much indulgence,
and practised with so much greater latitude, that the
punishment really operates no further than I have
stated. We count not the excommunicated person as an
enemy, but admonish him as a brother, agreeably to the

8
injunction of the Apostle in his letter to tbe Thessalo-
nianSi I know no instance of excommunication denounced
against the associates of the expelled member, or even
for abetting and encouraging him ; and I believe, that
scarcely any such instance has occurred, at least, with
the sanction of any Catholic Bishop.
Before I conclude this letter, I must beg your indul
gence for a few words, on a topic, which 1 should con
sider as a mere controversial assertion, and therefore
modestly pass over in silence, but for the inferences,
which his Lordship derives from the principle, and
which he urges with expressions of severity against our
-body ,• such as, we are persuaded, his honest indigna
tion, rather than his deliberatejudgment, suggested to
him in speaking. After distinguishing like a theolo
gian the power of order from the power of jurisdiction,
his Lordship states the proceedings used in the appoint
ment of a Bishop in the established Churches of England
and Ireland ; and finally declares, that the claiming
an Episcopal Jurisdiction within this kingdom, inde
pendent ofthe Crown, is a most outrageous violation of
the very first principles of our ancient constitution.
You will not be surprised, dear Sir, that we should
hesitate to concur in this argument, which, if granted
by us, convicts us at once of outrageous, and perhaps
treasonable encroachment on the Royal Prerogative.
We agree in the definition given by his Lordship to the
words, "Power of Order," namely, " a capacity of
-" exercising the power of jurisdiction conferred by a
" competent authority :" but as the point- in dispute
-regards tbe power of jurisdiction, which we are charged
with assuming criminally, I regret that, in the printed
minutes of the Speech, I cannot find any definition
given to this " power of jurisdiction,"

He that finds an error of name in his indictment, I
haye read somewhere, is bound to rectify the mistake,
of which he avails himself, by a dilatory plea : this rule
is equitable, and I presume, Sir, that you will require
from me something more explicit than the answer I
have given, which turns perhaps on the omission of
the reporter, or perhaps on the supposed evidence of
the thing itself.
The power of order with us is the calling and dedi
cation of men to the function of the gospel, which
calling is supposed to be from divine authority. Of this
we have an early example in the Acts of the Apostles,
ch. xiii. v. 23. where Saul and Barnabas are consecrated
by the Prophets and Doctors at Antioch for the mission,
to which the Holy Spirit had destined them. Here we
have as well the power of order conferred, as the
power of jurisdiction indicated ; for jurisdiction, as
properly belonging to the Christian government, is con
fined to those things, to which the apostolic mission is
limited. The jurisdiction of a Bishop is the sum of his
duty, and, in the Pontifical of the R. Catholic Church,
the duty of a Bishop is declared to be that of judging,
expounding, consecrating, ordaining, offering, baptizing,
and confirming.
If then we consult the holy scriptures, and surely in
this point, we may not with safety neglect to consult
them, we shall find that the power of jurisdiction, as
well as the power of order, originate from the same
divine institution, through the authority of the same
hierarchical power. The Holy Spirit calls tp the mis
sion, and declares this to the Church : the Church
consecrates to this mission, and dismisses the disciples
to it; that is to say, it gives jurisdiction, as far as
spiritual authority can be so denoted.
When his Lordship therefore remarks, that order and
b

10
jurisdiction are of a quite distinct and different origin,
I trust it will not appear presumptuous to answer, that,
unless 1 have entirely misconceived his idea, it seems
rather to be against the fact. The first ordination of
Christian hierarchy was undoubtedly that, which was
established in the Apostles, and their mission was de
termined by the Saviour himself to comprehend all
human creation. Since by the mission of Christ trans
ferred by him to his Apostles, and from them supposed
to be transmitted to the present age, the power of juris
diction, as far as it is secluded from temporalrule, and
held without the aid of temporal coercion, is resident
in the sacred authority ofthe Christian Church, I think,
I see clearly, that no jurisdiction can- be rightfully
assumed without the mission, of which the scriptures
make mention ; but I cannot see how this jurisdiction.
becomes illegal, when attempted to be exercised with
out applying to the Majesty of any, even of the greatest
human ruler.
A man may be a Bishop, and yet it follows not of
necessity that he is a Bishop of a diocese. This is cer
tainly true, and yet must be equally so, that his mis
sion, though confined to that single diocese, may come
from that authority, which gives the mission of the
world at large to the Apostles. If by diocese, be under
stood a district circumscribed by metes and bounds, by
order ofthe secular power, it would be difficult to shew
any necessary connection between such a district, and
the mission originally given to the Church. The word
Diocese I should rather apprehend to be introduced, in
order to signify the local and canonical circumscription
of a previously resident ecclesiastical mission.
His Lordship further states, " that the only compe-
" tent authority for bestowing episcopal jurisdiction, in
" England or Ireland, is that of the crowu : in Eng-

11
*f land there is a nominal election by the chapter; in
" Ireland not even the appearance of an election. The
" grant is made- by letters patent, without any conge
" d'elire," and therefore, that " the claiming of such
" jurisdiction within this kingdom is an outrage-
" ous violation of the first principles of our ancient
" constitution."
It is manifest, that by Episcopal Jurisdiction the
Right Reverend Prelate understands, not merely the
spiritual power of teaching, reproving and exercising
priestly functions, but this power as invested with an
exterior magistracy, a social rank, and legal honours.
In this sense, we are so far from claiming that Episco
pal Jurisdiction, such as his Lordship enjoys it, that
we most positively disclaim the imputation of being
thought to possess any exterior title, power, or distinc
tion, which may seem to rival his own. A plain declara
tion like this, we hope, will be admitted by his Lord
ship as not the less sincere, from its being constantly
and loudly made.
But if it should be the case, that by Episcopal Ju
risdiction his Lordship would signify, not the tempo
ralities of a Bishop, but the mere spiritual office and
exercises, which flow, in our persuasion, from the ap
pointment of the Founder of the Church itself*, we
will beseech him to consider, that by fixing the mark
of outrage and violation of the first principles of the
constitution on a practice and persuasion, which we
cannot but consider as arising from our mode of faith,
he seems inclined to solicit a revival of penal law upon
a religious persuasion, which he himself was among
the foremost to enlarge from the fetters and infamy,
under which it had suffered long.
* Acts xx. 28. — John xx. 20.
b2

12
From what epoch shall we date the commencement
of this outrageous violation ? It cannot be of longer
standing than since the year 1782. By the penal code
in Ireland, Popish Bishops were ordered to transport
themselves, and death with torture was their doom, if
they returned. Will his Lordship say, that there was
outrage against the constitution in not applying for
spiritual jurisdiction to that power, which adjudged
such persons to the hurdle and gibbet; pr will he say,
that Episcopal Jurisdiction cannot exist under persecu
tion ? Did it not exist during the three first centuries
of the Christian Church, when the Religion of Christ
was so fiercely persecuted by the Pagan Emperors ?
With regard to the principles of the constitution, I
am very ill qualified by skill or profession to discuss
such matters. Yet I will venture to affirm, that, in the
ancient cbnsiitution of England, it was not considered
as an outrageous crime, that Roman Catholics should
not apply for the power of jurisdiction to the Supreme
Ordinary of the- Protestant Church, although this Su
preme Ordinary should be one and the same person
with the most excellent Majesty of the King. This
was plainly a Casus non provisus, because then no
other religion than the Roman Catholic was pro
fessed. The letters missive to Chapters became imperious by
a statute making it a pramunire to delay ten days
without appointing the person recommended. This
statute is ofthe reign of Henry VIII. and was the an
nexation of a new prerogative, not a declaration of
ancient right. Yet this law was made, when it was
found expedient to new-model the Church of England.
A further attempt was made under Edward VI. to
order that Bishops' letters should be attested under the

13
King's arms, and that the style should be not by the
grace of God, but from the King's appointment. The
wise policy of Elizabeth restored the dignity of the
episcopal name, and gave back their ancient, and, as
we conceive, their inalienable titles to jurisdiction from
divine authority.
A word more on this argument. His Lordship
generously avows, and argues, that " a Protestant, in
" his opinion, would have been a very unfit person to
" have held any high office under the old French go-
" vernmenl." He goes further than this: he de
clares that " he himself would have been unfit." We
perhaps think differently from the Bishop of St. Asaph
in this. — He asserts, that " the placing of Neckar, a
" Protestant and a Republican at the head of the
" councils of Louis XVI. was the overthrow of the Gal-
" lican Church and State." Now is it not natural, on
this very principle, for a Roman Catholic to shudder
at the consequences of having the jurisdiction over his
religion in the hands of the supreme head of an ad
verse religion ? Is is not natural to apprehend, that
what Neckar accomplished against the united powers,
prejudices, and resources of so great- a church and so
puissant a kingdom, may not easily be effected by
the prerogative of the greatest King, against the un
protected and contemned Church of the Roman Ca
tholics of Ireland.' Lastly, ought not the apprehension
increase from the consideration, that of all the con
stituent parts of the R. Catholic discipline, the exer
cise of episcopal power, such as we profess to hold, has
been, within these late most trying times, not only free
from crime, but defying accusation.
So much, my dear Sir, for the nature of our Hie
rarchy, and the extent and practical consequences of
our excommunication. I shall be truly rejoiced, if this

u
explanation shall bave contributed to undeceive your
friends in England, and to chace away those bug
bears from their apprehensions. One word more, as
to the Bishop's observation, that the words "directly
" or indirectly," used in the English Catholic Oath,
are omitted in the Irish Oath. A reference to the
Irish Statutes of 1773 and 1793, will satisfy his Lord
ship that those words are not omitted. His Lordship
was probably led into the error by the omission of the
Words, for brevity sake, in the recital of the Oath in
ihe late Petition. Be assured of the perfect esteem,
with which I have the honour to be,
My dear Sir,
Your faithful humble Servant,

J. T. TROY

Sir J. C. Hippisley, Bart. M. P.

15
No. II.
From Dr. Moylan-, titular R. C. Bishop of Cork,
to Sir J. C. Hippisley, Bart. M. P.
Dated Cork, 14 June, 1805.
DEAE SIB, THO' the issue of
the debate on the Petition of the Roman Catholics,
has not been so favourable as we had wished, yet I am
-persuaded, that the able discussion which took place,
has not injured our cause. The C question is nearly
cleared from all the abominable imputations, which
the prejudice of education, strengthened by partial
reading, had attached to it in the British dominions,
and I must say (as from your travels and long residence
on the Continent, you well know) in the British do
minions alone. Tbe old calumnies of treachery and
disloyalty,' of no faith to be kept with heretics, no alle
giance due to Protestant princes, are exploded, and are
countenanced no longer even by those, who persist in op
posing the removal of the restrictions affecting the Ca
tholics of Ireland. But if the discussion has procured us
many new supporters to our cause (which we really con
ceive to be the cause of the empire at large), we observe
on the other band with surprise, and greatly lament, that
it seems to have deprived us of the good opinion of one of
the most eminent and enlightened Prelates on the Eng
lish Bench, hitherto among our warmest friends, bnt,
who now appears to have withdrawn from us both his
confidence and support. This indeed we feel with a

16
sensibility proportionate to the loss of so much virtue
and talent exerted hitherto, and successfully exerted in
advocating our cause. To you, my dear Sir, I am
indebted for the perusal of the venerable Bishop of St.
Asaph's speech, for which many thanks. From the long
Intercourse you have had with those best informed on
the subject, I am disposed to think, that you could
have given but little credit to the assertions which have
been the cause of this loss, yet I think it my duty to
offer an observation or two on his Lordship's speech,
and the more so, as I am persuaded, that the zealous
application you have given for so many years to this
important subject, does not arise less from a conviction,
that it holds out the secret means of giving security
to the established foundation of the Revolution, by
giving ease and energy to so many millions of his
Majesty's subjects, than from your own benevolent
disposition towards so numerous a description of -your
fellow Christians, with whose principles you had the
best opportunity of becoming acquainted, and of whose
conduct you have not been an inattentive observer.
I am inclined to believe that a plain, full, and satisfac
tory answer and explanation of every point his Lord
ship has touched upon will appear, and I shall not be
surprised, considering his known candour and liberality,
with that rectitude of judgment and extensive informa
tion he possesses, I shall not, I say, be surprised to see
him again in the number of our advocates. His Lord
ship's change was sudden and almost instantaneous, as
he owns himself; he came into the House disposed to
vote, if not for all that the Petition called for, at least
for a part. The inclination of his mind was not to
oppose the motion of going into a committee; and
it was not till the debate had made a considerable pro
gress, that his mind was changed, and completely

17
changed by the representations made by Lord Redes
dale of the R. C. hierarchy of Ireland, as assuming
authority and exercising power contrary to law, and as
holding out the Bishops and Clergy of the Established
Church in the light of intruders and usurpers ; — a seri
ous charge, indeed, and which, if it were founded, we
should acknowledge ourselves unworthy of your con
fidence and support, as well as that of the other vir-
tuousj liberal, disinterested, and enlightened statesmen,
who have so irresistibly demonstrated to the British
public, the justice, the policy, the expediency ofthe
measure of our emancipation. We deny the charge,
and challenge our accusers to the proof of the R. C.
hierarchy having ever asserted, that the established
Bishops and Clergy were intruders, usurpers, or un
lawful possessors of their revenues, or having in any
manner interfered with or interrupted ibem in the ex
ercises of their rights, privileges, or prerogatives. With
in the precincts of our places of worship (to the erec
tion of which in most places, justice and gratitude oblige
us to acknowledge the munificence of our Protestant
fellow citizens has been generally applied), the laws of
the land authorize the full and free exercise of every
part of our religion. Every one of the various sects to
be found in this country claims and occasionally exer
cises the right to expel from its body any contumaci
ous offender. In the Catholic Church nothing less than
gross acts of impiety kor immorality persisted in, calls
forth an excommunication ; the motive ofthe infliction
is the reparation of the scandal given, and the reforma
tion of the delinquent. The persons are R. Catholics
alone. The effect is the depriving of the R. Catholic of
the'spiritual advantage he derives from communication
with the Church. . Such is the real nature of our ex-

18
communication, dins' it is exercised: and how the ex
ercise of this jurisdiction, purely spiritual, regarding
only the members of the R. C. communion, can ever
come in contact, much less clash with the exercise of
the jurisdiction ofthe Established Church, or with the
laws of the land, il would be hard to shew. Had his
Lordship of St. Asaph known, what numbers had been
deterred from rebellion through fear and respect for
the exercise of this spiritual authority, how many have
been reclaimed and confirmed in their loyalty by this
same authority ; had he known the real state of this
country, I am confident not all the assertions and re
presentations of the highest authority in this kingdom
would in the least have shaken the opinion he had
formed to himself from reading, reflection, and obser
vation. Suppose a few, a very few instances of an
improper use of their spiritual jurisdiction to bave hap
pened by the indiscretion of any of the inferior R. C.
Clergy, unknown to and without the approbation of
their Bishops, should the R. C. hierarchy of this king
dom be, on that account, crushed by the strong arm of
power f Would his Lordship, or any other of the Rt.
Rev. and venerable Bench of Bishops of England
think themselves or their hierarchy answerable for the
indiscretion and misconduct of any of their clergy ?
As to the plan.of reducing our hierarchy, I really deem
it chimerical, nor would it effect, if it were practicable,
the intended purpose ; for certainly the (hierarchy of
the established Church in this kingdom would not be
strengthened, nor more respected, were it carried into
execution. But should tbe attempt be made to crush
that calumniated hierarchy by the strong arm of power,
and persecution be the order of the day, I trust,- with
the assistance of the Almighty, that the R. C. Pre-

19
iates of this kingdom would support the severe and
unmerited trial with the dignity, fortitude, and re
signation becoming their character, and worthy of
the sacred cause, for which they would suffer.
I have the honour to be most sincerely,
Dear Sir,
Your most obedient,
and faithful se'rvant,
F- MQYLAN.
Sir John Hippisley, Bart. M. P-

c£

20

[No. III.]

From Dr. Troy, titular R. C. Archbishop of Dublin,
to Sir J. C. Hippisley, Bart. M. P-

Dated Dublin, 15 June, 1805.

My dear Sir,

J- A m much obliged to you
for the printed report of Dr. Duigenan's Speech in the
parliamentary debate on the Catholic Petition, publish
ed by himself.
His principal arguments from Councils, Bulls of
Popes, &c. have been frequently answered ih various
replies to his former publications on the same subject ;
I shall, therefore, be very brief in my remarks upon
them, and be silent upon his political ones, which I am
incompetent to discuss. I shall number each remark,
and note the page of the Speech on which it is made.
No. I. Page 7- The Doctor greatly errs in his state
ment ofthe oath prescribed for the British Catholics by
the statute of 179 1. The Bishop of St. Asaph, who bad
a great share in that business, states it accurately. See
his Lordship's printed Speech, page 6, and Dr. Milner's
Short View, &c. in a Letter to a Member of the House
of Commons, pp. 17 and 18: also my Pastoral In--
struction on the Duties of Christian Cititens. London.
Coghlan 1793,, page 75.
II. Page 8. The Professors and Members of May-
nooth College, although not strictly obliged to take the
oath of 1793, have nevertheless, generally, taken it.
pur Bishops and Clergy have generally taken that oath,
as well as the other of 1773.

21
III. Page 11. On the Oath of Supremacy, see Dr.
Milner's Letters to a Prebendary, and his Short View,
Sec. page 33.
IV. Page 13< The alleged usurpations ofthe Pope
were not complained of by Henry VIII. until Clement
VII. opposed his projected marriage with Ann Boleyn
in the life-time of his lawful wife Queen Catharine.
He had been a great favourite of Clement's predecessor
Leo X. who honoured him with the title of Defender of
the Faith. Henry, irritated at the Pope's opposition,
disclaims his Spiritual Supremacy, and compels his Par
liament to declare him, himself, the only supreme Head
on earth of the Church of England and Ireland. — Henry
the VIII. did notoriously assume the spiritual jurisdic
tion, altho' he did not exercise the administration of the
sacraments; for he appointed Vicars General to pre
side in convocation in the Legate's place, — he estab
lished a Court of Delegates for trying heresies, 8tc. — he
erected Bishoprics, — he arraigned the public doctrine
in his Education and Institution ofthe Christian Man,
— he enacted the Six Articles, and was declared by Par
liament by his learning and skill to have almost defined
them, — finally, he ordered his approved version of the
Scriptures to be received by the Bishops and laity.
Elizabeth was the first to retract the pretensions, which
Henry acted upon, and Edward VI. still more out
rageously."^" The oath was altered at the Revolution, as
Dr. Duigenan states, and at present abjures the spi
ritual authority of the Pope. Pray is not this some
thing more than a mere oath of temporal allegiance,
which no Catholic, ecclesiastic or layman, refuses to
take ? See Dr. Milner, ibid.
V. Page 1 5. The statutes af praemunire andprovisors
were first enacted in the reign of Edward III. to pre-.
Vent the papal nominations of foreigners unacquainted
with the English language, to Bishoprics and other be-

22
nefices in England ; to moderate the fees exacted1 at
Rome for dispensations and forensic proceedings ; to
preserve the right of presentation to the respective pa
trons, and other similar temporal causes of discipline.
(Rex Eduardus primus omnium) says Polyd. Virg. Histi
Angl. Lib. 19.) de Concilii Sententia indixit immanem
Mis pecnam, qui impost erum impetrarent ubivis gentium
Anglicana Sacerdotia a Romano Pontifice, aut causas,
nisi per appellationem, ad eumdem defer rent, ,lfc. Ltx
provisionis,siveprcBmumrevocitatur. An agreement was
entered into between the Pope and King Edward in
1374, stipulating that the Pope should not in future re
serve any benefices, and that the King should not confer
any by his letters quare impedit. — Et tandem, says
Thomas Walsingham, concordat um est inter eos, quod
Papa de ceetero reservationibus beneficiorum minimi ute-
retur, et quod Rsx beneficia per literas (quare impedit)
1 ulterius non conferret. Legatine Courts, appeals to a
dubious Pope, there being one at Rome and another at
Avignon, provisions of benefices from either, were pro
hibited by the statutes of^prcemunire, in the reign of
Richard II. The statute quoted by Dr. Duigenan from
Carte's Ormond was caused by the weakness of this
Prince, who had applied to the Pope to confirm his
Ordinances and the Acts of Parliament. This was one
pf the charges in the 33 articles, upon which he was
impeached;, and was thus worded: Quamvis Corona
Regni Anglice, et jura ejusdem corona, ipsumque Reg
num fuerit ah omni /empore retroacto adeo libera ; ut
Dominus Summus Pontifex, nee aliquis alius extra reg
num se inimmittere debeat de iisdem ;. tamen prafatus
Rex ad roborationem Statutorum suorum erroneorum
supplicavit Domino Papa, quad Statuta in ultimo Par-
Hamento suo ordinata confirmarei. These different sta
tutes of praemunire and provisions have not been expli
citly repealed, but they were not enforced, as we find

23
resident legates, natives and Italians, in every succeed
ing reign, even in that of Henry VIII. himself. Appli
cations were likewise made to Rome during the same
long period for various dispensations ; and all matters
of spiritual jurisdiction were, as usual, referred to, and
determined by the See of Rome : but were it even other
wise, these different statutes regarding only temporal or
mixed matters of discipline, do not affect the Pope's
supremacy in matters purely spiritual, nor prohibit ap
peals on them to his tribunal.
VI. Page 17- Although Catholics consider Henry
Vlll. as having usurped the rights of the then Catholic
Church of England in contempt of his solemn corona
tion oath, yet, when once those rights have been secu
larized, and are, with respect to Catholics, as a part
annexed to the established government, the Catholics
do not consider James or Charles, or any later king, to
have been or to be usurpers on this head.
VII. Page 18. The tiles of Most Reverend and Right
Reverend, both by Catholic laymen, who use this form,
and by Churchmen, to whom it is addressed, are words
of courtesy and reverence merely, without any associa
tion of the idea of temporal pre-eminence, but solely as
indicative of ecclesiastical rank within our own commu
nion. These titles are so clearly annexed from ancient
church practice to episcopacy, that, in the Synod of
Carthage, held by the Emperor's order against the ille
gal sect of the Donatists, those disqualified Bishops are;
nevertheless, entitled in the Acts Sanetissimi by the or
thodox, who did not even consider them as really or
dained Bishops.
VIII. Pages 18 and 19. Doctor Troy is quoted by
Dr. Duigenan as stating the omission of the clause in the
consecration oath of Catholic Bishops : w Hmreticos,
" schismaticos, et rebctles, eidem Domino nostro, vel
" successoribus pradictis, pro p&sse persequar et impug-

24
" nabo." Dr. Duigenan should have likewise, quoted
Dr. Troy for the following concluding words ofthe
same oath taken by Irish Catholic Bishops since the
year 179L as he must necessarily have seen them, they
being immediately after the former above written ones.,
in Dr. Troy's Pastoral Instruction of 1793, page 59- —
" Heee omnia et singula eo inviolabilius observabo, quo
" certior sum nihil in Mis contineri, quod fidelitati meee
" e.rga Serenissimum Magnec Britannia et Hibernia
" Regem, ejusque ad thronum successores debitee, ad-
" versari possit." — " I will observe all and every one
" of these things the more inviolably, as I am firmly
" convinced, that there is nothing contained in them,
" which can be contrary, to the fidelity I owe to the
" most Serene King of Great Britain and Ireland, and to
" his successors to the throne." See Dr. Milner's" 5Aor£
View,§c. page 29. — This oath, as explained by Catho
lics, is not so formidable, as the Doctor's barbarous
translation would make it. The Regalities of St. Peter
mean neither more nor less than the Pope's principa
lities in Italy and Avignon : the title of Dominus is
nearly as terrific as that of Mr. in English, and by Go
thic ceremonial belongs to Abbots as well as to Bishops :
the promise to augment the honours of the See has been
strangely neglected these 300 years past, if the Doctor
has argued truly on the meaning.
IX. Page 19. No Catholic Priest swears at his, or
dination to the Profession of Faith, of which Dr. Duige
nan has given an extract, nor otherwise, except on the
appointment to a benefice. It was published by Pius
IV. and is a summary of the dogmatical points defined
as articles of faith by the Council of Trent. Parishioners
are not called subjects by the parish priests.
X. Page 20. The first and second Canons of the
IV. Lateran Council are the only doctrinal or dogmati
cal decisions obliging all the faithful. The others are

25
of discipline, or temporary. None of them relate to
Protestants, who were unknown in the 13th century.
The heretics alluded to in the III. Canon were the Al
bigenses, an execrable set of Manicheans. Their dog
matical errors are condemned in the first Cation.
Church and state combined to destroy those enemies of
both. See Dr. Troy's Pastoral Instruction, 1793, p. 126.
Dr. Milner's Letters to1 a Prebendary, and Short Re
view, fyc.
XL Page2i. Council of Constance. See Dr.
Milner's Short Review, b)'c. page 18 et seq.
XII. Page 22, Efccdmmutiication of Queen Eli
zabeth. See ibid. p. 36, and Letters to a Prebendary.
Xlli. Page 22. James I. died long before Clement
IX. was elected Pope. The Catholics disregarded these
and similar injunctions. See Dr. Milner, ibid.
XIV. Page 2*2. The Sovereign Pontiffs usually en
ter their protests against the violation of former treaties
favourable to the Catholic Religion, ahd against religi
ous innovations. Charles VI., notwithstanding the de
claration of Clement XI. enforced the covenants of
the treaty of Alt Rastadt, and lived and died in
communion with the See of Rome. Similar decrees,
declarations, rescripts, or Bulls of Popes, are devoid of
every condition required to render any Canon or Bull
of infallible authority with Catholics. The Pope, as
enjoying the place of established umpire in Germany,
and as called upon by the Catholic States, whether
ecclesiastical or temporal, to interpose his authority, as
such, could not have avoided entering protest in the
case referred to, which went to abridge, not the Catho
lics merely of power, hut the Catholic establishment's of
security; as it was manifest, that in Germany the Lu
therans used their freedom perpetually for dispossessing
the Catholics of property ; and, when they gained pro
perty, used power, thus obtained^ to enslave the Catholics.
d

26
XV. Page 23. The Pope's Legate at Brussels deli
vered his own private unauthorized opinion.
XVI. Page 24. Dr. Troy is not a Cardinal, nor
does he use a Cardinal's cap in his arms. He does not
openly assume or use the arms of the Archdiocese of
Dublin. The Roman Catholic Prelates of Ireland are
frequently applied to by their countrymen, military
officers, merchants and others, in Spain, Portugal and
other countries, for their signatures to certificates of
Baptism, Confirmation, Marriage, &c. Such certifi
cates, without an appropriate seal, would avail nothing
in Catholic countries ; and a certificate issued from the
spiritual courts here, as by law established, would not
run in those foreign Catholic stales, where there is no
intermixture of sects, and consequently no courts nor
officials communicating with the, established church
courts of this United Kingdom. Dr. Troy does on such
ocqasions, in his letters or certificates of ordination,
use a Seal, in which a Pall, (see Dr. Troy's Pastoral
Instruction of 1793 above cited, p. 57) under a cross and
Prelate's hat, is quartered with his family arms, under
which is his family motto, Laudat, tentat, vincit.
This cannot be called the Archiepiscopal Seal used
by the Protestant Archbishop, which exhibits the Pall
only. XVII. Page 25. The Roman Catholics of Ireland
contemplate with gratitude the munificence of his Ma
jesty and Pariiament in the erection and endowment of
a spacious College for the education of their Clergy;
which, however, is not altogether so magnificent and
commodious as Dr. Duigenan insinuates, two or three
of the scholars being obliged to sleep in the same nar
row room.
XVIII. Page 27. Concerning the Statutes of Rich
ard II. and other Catholic Kings of England, see above
No. V. The Acts of Henry VIII. and Elizabeth, Pro
testant Sovereigns, are not to the purpose.

27
XIX. Although the discipline of the established
and Roman Catholic Church on marriage be different
in some respects, neither the Pope nor the Catholic
Bishops of Ireland interfere with the civil or state-
laws regarding it. Matrimonial cases are not re
ferred to the Pope, except in very extraordinary in
stances, which seldom or never occur ; as the Bishops
are empowered to grant dispensations in the degrees of
kindred, and other cahoriical impediments. — I can add
nothing at present to what I have observed on our ex
communications, in my remarks on the Bishop of St.
Asaph's speech. — If auricular confession and absolution
confer that mighty temporal power on the Catholic
priesthood, which Dr. Duigenan asserts, is it not sur
prising, that Catholic states should allow and follow the
practice in the greater part of Christendom ? Is it cre
dible, that Bonaparte would tolerate such division of
power in the widely extended dominions of France !
He is not head of the Catholic Church in Francej nor
has he assumed that supremacy. The ceremony of
coronation presupposed Bonaparte's possession of power,
but did not confer any. See Dr. Milner's Short View,
fyc. page 39 in note.
XX. Page 29. The greater the despotism of any
government, the more suspicious and jealous must the
despot be" of any encroachment on the exercise of his
power : if therefore the Catholic states of Europe were,
or are the most despotic, they would not have 'so long-
continued to acknowledge the Pope's supremacy, as
they did, and do, if it interfered with, their temporal
rights; which they defend as zealously as Protestant
states possibly can.
XXI. Pages 35 and 36. The Ctft holies disregarded
the Bull of excommunication and deposition of Eliza
beth. Pius V. .did not recommend assassination. See
above No. XII. XIII. and XIV. On this subject aad
d2

28
subsequent transactions, see Dr. Milner's Letters, to a
Prebendary, and his Short View, <Sfc. page. 37. Mr,
Pitt, in Ills late speech on the Catholic Petition, denied
that the rebellion in Ireland of 1798 was connected with
the rejigious principles of Catholics.
XXlI. Catholic rebellion, massacre of Protestants,
&c. &c. mere party declamation, assertion without
proof, contradicted by Mr. Pitt.
XXIII. Page 42. Lord Chesterfield was a Free
thinker or Philosophe. Persons of this description are
more prejudiced against the Catholic religion, which
they affect to ridicule, than any other. Hi! Lordship's
authority is not serviceable to Dr. Duigenan on the pre
sent sqbject.
' XXIV. Page 43. The Catholics assembled in Fran
cis-Street Chapel in 1795 were residents in Dublin, and
were not the representatives of the Catholics of Ireland.
There were not two hundred at the meeting. The re-
presentatives of the Catholics, as such, never met in
Francis-Street Chapel. They always assembled in
Taylor's Hall, Back-Lane.
XXV. Pages 45 and 46. The meeting at the Ex-,
change in 1799 was an aggregate one of householders,
and was more numerously attended by Protectants than
Catholics. The citizens of Dublin of all denominations
•were generally hostile to the Union. The most respect
able Catholics in other parts, particularly in the South,,
were friendly to the Union, and addressed in favour of
it. As to the " goals having been canvassed,, for sub-
*f scribers and signatures of wretches who could not
" write their names," I never heard of it until I read
Dr. Duigenan's speech.
XXVI. Page 47, Several Members of both Houses,
particularly General, now. Lord, Hutchinson, declared,
they voted for the Union because the cjaims of the,
Irish Catholics would, as, they said, be more impartially.

29
discusssed in the Imperial Parliament than in the Irish,
one., XXVII. Page 49. The rebellion in Ireland was not,
according to Mr. Pitt, Romish or Catholic, in the mean
ing of Dr. Duigenan. See Dr. Milner's Short View,.
&c. page 25.
XXVIII. Page- 50. Catholics do not hold any of
the decrees or canons of the fourth Lateran Council as,
infallible doctrines proposed,. to be believed as dogmas,
or articles of faith and of Catholic Communion, except
the first and second, in which the principal doctrinal
errors of the Manicheans arid Albigenses, and ofthe
Abbot Joachim on the Trinity, are condemned. Sees
above No. X.
XXIX. Page 5Q. The spiritual Supremacy of the-
Bishop of Rome is an article of Catholic faith. See
Dr. Milner's Letters to a Prebendary, and a Short
View, fyc. page 33. Catholics do not hold themselves
bpund to propagate their peeujiar tenets by force or by
improper means of any kind. They hold, agreeably.
to the thirty-nine articles of the Church of England,
and to the Athanasian Creed, forming a part of her
liturgy and common prayer ; in Conformity likewise, as.
they conceive, to the profession of faith of every Chris
tian congregation, that there is no salvation without
divine faith, nor without communion with the. Catholic
Church, except in the case of invincible ignorance or
invincible necessity; but they do not presume to doom
individuals to damnation, leaving judgment to God, the.
searcher of hearts. They deny upon oath the damna
ble position, that faith is not. to be kept with heretics,
and that no oaths to an heretical prince or government
are binding.
XXX. Page 52. Catholics willingly and heartily
abjure_apy temporal or civil authority, &c. of the Pope
in these realms, but cannot abjure his spiritual and eccle-

30
siastical Primacy, which is an article of their faith.
Consequently, they cannot, as Catholics, take the Oath
Of Supremacy prescribed by law, affirming " the King
" to be the only supreme governor of this realm as
" well in spiritual or ecclesiastical things or causes, as
" temporal." See above No. III. and IV.
XXXI. Pages 52, 53. The Albigenses were the he
retics alluded to in the III. Canon of the fourth Lateran
Council, as remarked above No. X. and XXVIII.
XXXII. Page ,55. The Roman Catholics, like
others, were divided at the last general election, and
voted, like others, according to their respective interests.
This will always be the case.
XXXIII. Catholics hold no doctrine hostile to the
independence of the state, of which they are subjects.
I have tired you with these remarks, although I have
endeavoured to be brief. Most of Dr. Duigenan's argu
ments have been anticipated and answered in the publi
cations, to which I have referred, and in a style more
becoming the Christian and the Gentleman, than that
which the Doctor is accustomed to use when charac
terizing his poor Catholic countrymen and their ancient
faith. If they were perjurers, traitors, rebels, disloyal,
&c. under every Protestant government, from a princi
ple of religion, as he and others have described them,
they should have been treated as real Helots, instead
of being tolerated ; or expatriated to the wilds of Siberia
or America, as the outcasts and disgrace of civilized
society. I am in bad humour with the subject, and
must conclude ; but with sincere assurances of the perfect
regard and esteem, with which I have the honour to be,
My dear Sir,
Your faithful and obliged
humble servant,
J. T. TROY.
Sir J. C. Hippisley, Bart. M. P.

31

No. IV.
From the Rev. Dr. Troy, titular R. C. Archbishop of
Dublin, to Sir J. C. Hippisley, Bart. M.P.
Annfield, near Dublin, 24 August, 1805*
Dear Sir, I Have just read over the
pamphlet entitled, Substance cf the Speech of Lord
Redesdale, in the-debate on the Catholic Petition.
You will naturally suppose that it has given me little
pleasure ; and, in truth, I am concerned at the indis
cretion of the publishers, whoever they were, that could
risk so highly respectable a name, on a publication so
replete with errors.
You wish, it seems, that I should inform }rou par
ticularly in what these errors consist, which I shall en
deavour to perform, by throwing them, for the greater
clearness, into distinct articles. I will pass over no
thing that merits even a denial.
In the review I shall take of this substance, I am,
much relieved by considering, that I have tlie advan
tage of addressing a Gentleman wjiose knowledge of
Roman Catholic manners, usages, and disciplinary
laws, completely entitles him to judge between the
parties, and whose character is placed above the suspi
cion, either of undue partiality, or of vulgar prejudice.
It gratifies me, Sir, to remember, that you derive your
acquaintance with our ecclesiastical polity from far bet
ter sources than those writers had access to. You have

32
seen and conversed with the very first ministers of our
religion, and therefore may well recollect the ideas
you took from experience, and compare them with the
accusation and with the defence. My obligations to
your friendship commenced at that time, when you
were in a situation to observe the rules and practices of
the Catholic Church in the centre of Papal authority.
I willingly persuade myself, that had this brochure come
into your hands at that time, you would have consulted
the honour of your country by suppressing it.
The author of the pamphlet under consideration
has simplified, to a great degree, the art of polemical
argument. After giving us scarcely forty lines on the
object of the Petition, he settles on the theme of the
Roman Catholic Clergy in Ireland; who, as it hapr
pened, were by no means connected with that object, and
who, of all the Irish Roman Catholics, the only persons
that were not to be benefited, as a professional descrip
tion, by the concession ofthe political favours, for which
their lay-brethren humbly asked. To.be Post-Master-
general or Special, or Generals of Brigade, or Inspec
tors of Ordinance, or Custodes Rotulorum, or Speakers
in one or the other House, has never been an object of
ambition, so far as my own knowledge extends, for
any Catholic Clergyman. By inferences, I know they
may be brought in, and we have experienced, rather
uncomfortably, "that, in all riots, misdemeanors, and
crimes in Ireland, a Catholic Clergyman, like the
occult quality cf the ancient schools, must come in t6
solve the mystery, and to save the labour of thinking,
of inquiring, and of confessing error. This writer has
had the address to avail himself very largely of this
Peripatetic solution ; and, allowing for some short ex
cursions into the history of the Refornration, such as
he is pleased to give it, the main business of his disser
tation is with the Irish Roman Catholic Clergy. They

33
form his great objection to the late petition : the accu
sations he brings against them are the following:
I. The strongest accusation, at least that which is
the most prolix, consists of the story of the excommu
nicated couple, and ofthe two hundred pilgrims which
occurs in pages 17, 18, 19. This " Pilgrims Progress,"
like that of John Bunyan, ought to have concluded
with the discovery, " I awoke, and lo ! it was a dream,"
for you are already aware, Sir, that the narrative,
though perhaps highly descriptive as an allegory, does
not contain one syllable of literal truth. The manu
facturing of that story has been partly traced to a
southern part of Ireland, where we all know that such
prompt justice is established, that the labels on the
breasts of two hundred pilgrims marching in a Body
would only have served as the marks for the bullets of
a well-trained military. However, it is but justice to
own, that, in the present rifacimento of this dissertation,
the labels are left out, and the void is supplied by an
aggravating circumstance, viz. that the couple, after
a most humble submission made to the Vicar-General,
were notwithstanding excommunicated. You see, Sir,
what an easy matter it is for an accuser to refute his
own story, through ignorance. of the matter and pre
judice. To excommunicate a person submitting and
penitent, is surely no Catholic principle.
II. In this same story it is gravely affirmed, that
" an excommunicated person may starve, if not re-
" lieved by ' the charity of Protestants." That man
must be very credulous, who can bona fide believe such
an assertion. It is rather a slur on Christianity than on
Irish Catholics. It is totally false, and it asserts' a
practice subversive of our religion, and manifestly in
sulting to our very character as Irishmen. Were such
an inhuman principle to be preached up, as the con
trary is preached, to Irish Roman Catholics, they
e

34
would disdain it as hea'rtily as the new missionary
scheme. III. The next accusation is presented in such a
variety of shapes, that proves the exuberance of the
author's invention. " The Roman Catholics of Ire
land," he says, (page 5.) " maintain a complete
" hierarchy, and represent that hierarchy as the only
" lawful successors of the ancient Clergy of Ireland,
" assuming all the powers, and claiming all the Re-
" venues of tltat Clergy," — denying to the Legislature
all power (ibid.) over- the revenues of the Church.
" The Roman Catholic Clergy (page 7.) consider those
" in possession as usurpers, claim the powers and Re-
" venues of the Church as their right." — The Roman
Catholic Clergy in Ireland represent those (page 14.)
whom the law has placed in possession of the emo
luments of the national Church, as usurpers of those
emoluments — "Require their flocks lo consider them
" as the lawful owners of the ecclesiastical Revenues/'
(page 15.) — Every Archbishop and Bishop, every in
ferior Dignitary (page 16.) meets in his place a rival
Clergyman, ready and anxious to seize his benefice,
Iiis dignities, and revenues, whenever the opportunity
shall offer.
To this indictment, in all its shapes and counts, I
openly and steadily reply, that it is false, — manifestly
and totally false, and directly opposite to the known
truth. I affirm that no Roman Catholic Priest or Pre
late thinks or teaches, or wishes to teach the people,
that he is the proprietor of the temporalities, or emo
luments, or worldly honours possessed by the Church
established by law. As for the strong terms of seizing
the revenues, and such other harsh terms resorted to by
the writer, I can only account for them by his strange
and deep-rooted prejudices against Irish Catholics, which
hinder him from forming any ideas of them, but such

35
as are unkind and irrational. The only attempt, how-
Over, at proving these heinous charges, lies in the two
following phrases; of which one overthrows the other
in terminis, and of which both are equally destitute of
truth. IV. " The Roman Catholic Clergy teach their
" people that, by the commandments of their Church
" (which they boldly represent as equal to the com-
" mandments of God) the people are bound to pay
" their tithes to their lawful pastors, which pastors they
" represent themselves to be." (p. 15.)
V. " Any proposition for the commutation of
" tithes, in which, as the law stands, they have no
" apparent interest, has been treated by them with the
" strongest terms of reprobation ; evincing" (i. e. they
evincing) " by their eagerness to condemn any such
" measure, that they still consider the tithes as their
'*' property." (p. 32.)
You will observe, Sir, by the first axiom, it is a
public and sanctified part of our doctrine, that we, the
Roman Catholic Clergy, are the proprietors of the
tithes : we claim them by divine authority, in opposi
tion to law : by the second axiom, we who have appa
rently no interest in the tithes, as the law stands, (al
though to him it is manifest that we hold *he law as
null, and pretend to the tithes, notwithstanding) yet
reprobate a commutation' by law ! that is, we teach it
as God's command, that the law which gave away
those tithes is null, add yet we fear a law that should
establish a modus. Ifa modus alone can countervail our
church precepts, the Author who has discovered our
vulnerable part, ought to recommend a modus against
Popery itself. *
It is extremely fatiguing to attempt the refutation of
such inconsistent reasonings the inconclusiveness of
which is, perhaps, more evident in the bare words of
e2

36
the quotation, than it would be in the very best cri
tique that could be made upon it. But I must not
omit to remind you, dear Sir, that the first quotation
is curiously inaccurate, inasmuch as it has taken two
pieces of citation from our Catechism for Children, and
mutilated both passages.
The Writer affirms, that we teach, that our Church
precepts are equal to the precepts of God. Our Cate
chism puts the question : — " Are the commandments
" ofthe Church to be equally obeyed, as the commands
"¦ of God ?" And the-answer is given in the affirma
tive, in the words of Christ there quoted. The Writer
ought to have gained some little information on this
topic, before" he lectured in theology. He should have
learned, that the commands of a parent are equally to be
obeyed with the commands of God, and yet the com
mands are not equal iu authority or dignity; and he
ought to have known, that, when the Church or the
parent enforces obedience by alledging a divine autho
rity, they do not supersede, but enforce the authority,
under which they claim to be obeyed. The second
mistake in this first assertion is, that he charges us with
teaching the people to pay their tithes to us their lawful
pastors. Their tithes must mean, in this place, the
tithes, of which the law takes notice, and which he
so repeatedly declares us to be ready and anxious to
seize. Now, Sir, the mentioned Catechism has it, to
pay tithes, not the tithes, and the Catechism explains
paying tithes to be " contributing to the support of
" them that instruct us in religion." (See also the
General Catholic Catechism taught in this kingdom,
Lessons xx. and xxi.)
I forbear what indignation would add on such an
..occasion, and proceed to observe that the word tithes
is of most ancient and universal acceptation in the
christian world, for merely denoting the offerings dedi-

37
cated to the support ofthe ministers of the gospel, and
is anterior to any statute or political law for assigning
over an effective tenth, or any rated part of growing
property. -(Origen. Hom.x'i.in Num. 18.) You know-
very well, that in the East no such tithes, as prevail in
this kingdom by law, were ever introduced; and that,
even at Rome, where the precept solvere decim,as is
taught also, no tenths nor twentieths are known, and
the Parochial Clergy are supported out of the city
taxes. If the word titht is alarming, the word apostle
ought not to be less so. Both terms are similarly
transferred from the law and practice of Judaism, and
the apostle, with respect to the Jews, was a commis
sioner sent abroad with authority to convey the precepts
of the Sanhedrim, and to collect the tributary offerings
and tenths.
Without meaning to encumber this letter with any
thing approaching to polemics, I a'm sure it may be
amicably stated, that the right of lawful pastors to
support from their flocks, -(and each pastor is considered
as a lawful one, by him, who permanently acquiesces
in his direction) that this right I say, can vouch au
thorities of the highest name, exclusive of the sanction
ofthe laws of the land, to which our author is unsea
sonably fond of appealing, as well in matters of revealed
religion as in those of common sense. It is plain, that
whosoever professes the Roman Catholic Religion as
the true one, will consequently believe that this religion
is worthy of support; and that, if it cannot be support
ed, without a support and aid to its ministers, those mi
nisters are to be supported. Here, exclusive of any
right existing in the ministers ihemselves, there is a
just obligation on the part of their flocks ; and if, more
over, there be a religious precept among Catholics to
bestow this support, a precept founded in the system
of Christianity itself, arid if there be also a title given

38
by the Lawgiver of Christians to his .disciples, to take
this support (as there is beyond a doubt) it follows that
the Catholic Clergy may lawfully and justly think
themselves entitled to a support ; and although the
object is their own sustenance, may religiously teach
this obligation and right as a church commandment.
It would require a very powerful subtilty to demon
strate that the Roman Catholics, as such, are tolerated,
while the exercise of their religion is made illegal; or that
this exercise is tolerated, yet is not to be supported from
ruin; or that this essential support is allowed, while it is
made criminal to bestow it in that extent which the
precepts of that religion, when it obtained toleration by
law, had openly declared to be essential to its exist
ence. In short, Sir, it is much to be apprehended,
that if such arguments as this writer resorts to are not
discountenanced by those that wish well to common
tranquillity, some attempt will be made by refinements
of black-letter metaphysics and penal-statute juggling,
to reduce the Roman Catholics of Ireland to a most dis
tressing condition of nominal toleration and real perse
cution. To proceed to the second axiom laid down by this
Writer, "That the Catholic Clergy have always treat-
" ed every proposal for the commutation of tithes (in
" which as the law stands they have apparently no in-
" teresty with the strongest terms of reprobation," it
is so false in fact, and, though it were true, so per
verted in order to infer a criminal design, that I cannot
conceive how any well-informed writer could adopt it.
I know of no modus ever proposed, except that pro
posed by Mr. Grattan; and you, Sir, may remember
whether it was the Catholic Clergy who then deafened
the House of Commons and the public with outcries
against this modus, complaining that it was " a conspi-
" racy of Papists, Dissenters, and Atheists, to destroy

39
" the Church established." We were then accused of
being the instigators of the proposal, in order to set
up our religion in its ancient state. Now we are
charged with having been averse from the proposal with
the self-same view. Until it is agreed on among our
accusers, whether it is better to accuse us of opposition
or of adherence to the measure, we beg to be privileged
from answering any false witness on either side. The
next assertion I shall notice with regard to the Catholic
Clergy, is conveyed in the following terms.
VI. " The Roman Catholic Clergy of Ireland are a
" great and compact body, (p. 14.) a species of cor-
" poration, with all the forms and gradations of a
" distinct and firm government." This preamble \
will not contest, until'I am'enabled distinctly to under
stand its meaning. It is certain we preserve the apostolic
institution of Bishops, Presbyters, and Deacons, and
'that there is a subordination of offices in the Church,
from the Bishop to the tonsured Clerk. Whether this
amount to a corporation, or whether the Writer betravs
not rather an inverted talent of philosophy that embo
dies the spiritual instead of abstracting from the sensible,
is a problem that would require great leisure to solve.
VII. " Connected by no tie with the Government
" of the country, (ibid.) and utterly incapable of being
" so connected." It seems, then, that the tie of alle
giance passes for nothing in the conception of this
Writer! VIII. " Standing in open defiance of the law."
(ibid.) " Lifting themselves up in defiance of the law."
It is plain the Writer has read only the penal statutes,
without the postscript *. v
IX. " Exercising an authority which the law ex-
" pressly forbids." (p. 14.) He means the penal laws,
* See the Act of 1791.

40
now repealed, under which, were they now in force, I
grant Dr. Coppinger might have been hanged.
X. " Their Parochial Clergy are formally kisti-
" tuted Rectors or Vicars of the several parishes, ac-
" cording to the titles of Rector or Vicar, as they stood
" before the Reformation." — Their Parish Priests are
still appointed by the Bishops, with the titles ofthe an
cient tutelary Saints given to those local districts before
the sera of Protestantism. But the Parish Priests are
appointed as such, not as Rectors or Vicars. All this
was perfectly well known to the Irish Parliament when
the penal code was abolished.
XI. " They have preserved their Deans and Chap-
<c ters, and the dioceses and provinces of the several
" Archbishops and Bishops as they existed before
" that event, with the difference only of some unions
" since made by the authority of the Pope." {ibid.)
—It is very true. The succession of Catholic Bishops
in Ireland is nearly of fifteen hundred years standing.
The Deans and Chapters are an honorary Council to the
Bishop, as is the case in all Roman Catholic Countries,
and likewise in Protestant Prussia, and in Russian Po
land, and throughout the world.
XII. " The Roman Catholic Clergy exercise
" their power over their flocks (p. 16.) without the
" controul of the law of the land, to which they were
•' subject before tlie Reformation." "The impossibility
(p. 19-) " of obtaining any redress, however oppressive
" and tyrannical the proceedings in excommunication,
" Ste. may be, is the true source of their extravagant
"power; a power far greater than that possessed by
'_' Clergy in those states where the Roman Catholic is
" the established religion : a power subject to no con-
" troul, inconsistent with peace, order, and good go-
" vernment : a power, which our ancestors, in limes
" of the greatest higotry, had dared to restrain by va-

41
¦" rious legislative provisions. The only remedy the
" Roman Catholics can have against those oppressions
" is an appeal to Rome, (p. 20.) and what sort of redress
" can be obtained by such an appeal ! ! !"
I marked the pages of this " Substance," and classi
fied the repetitions with some labour, and am so tired
out with copying, that I beg you to give me credit for
any further samples of da capo on this topic, of an un-
controuled power.
The Roman Catholic Clergy do not exercise those
powers without the controul of the law of the land, to
which they were subject before the Reformation. The
Writer having a confused remembrance of the statutes
of Provisors and Praemunire, confounds tbe object of
those statutes, (which went to restrain the excessive
and unprecedented abuse of provisors and applications
to the Court of Rome) with the ancient liberties of the
Church of England, which those statutes left untouched.
The law ofthe land did not interfere in an}' matter of
pure church authority, and merely spiritual : (Cncum-
specteAg. 13 Ed. I.) The ministers ofthe Church were
, not to answer in the King's Courts touching matters of
theirjurisdiction, (15 Ed. III. St. 1.) nor commissions
to be granted for holding inquisition on them, (18 Ed.
III. 3.) Their certificates in cases of bastardy or
loyalty of marriage was final to the King's Courts, and
the Courts Christian were sovereign, and exclusive
within their sphere*, insomuch that it was not even
allowed to a person certified to be excommunicated to
save himself from arrest oh that account, by offering to

* The independence of the spiritual power may be collected
from the very address of the King's Writs to the Bishops. Ed.
wardus Dei gratia, &c. Venerabili Patri W. eadem gratia Episcop.
Lincoln. Sal. (Hengham Magn. temp. Ed. I. Ch. t.)
f

42
abide an issue, that the cause of excommunication was.
a lay case *.
The law cf the land did certainly controul excom
munications. In this we confess the Writer to have
cause for triumph ; but in candour he must permit us to
remark, that those excommunications were not merely
a separation from the use of Sacraments and Commu
nions in divinis, (with which excommunication the laws
ofthe land never intermeddled, and which alone is now
ever resorted to by the Roman Catholic Clergy of Ire
land, and that Very rarely, and never for pecuniary or
litigious causes, but solely for great scandals) but were
effectively a sentence of outlawry, to the execution of
which the Bishops called on the aid of the secular armf,
if the person so excommunicated remained forty days
in contumacy. A power such as this, were it to be

* See Lib. Pari. 25. Ed. III. No. 31. a petition (to the King)
" That no excommunication shall issue without a Sd. Fa. against
" the party, to know whether the case be lay, thatif such, the
" party may reverse it, or have an opportunity to shew the whole
" matter," was denied. Fitzherbert's N. B. 145 note.
t "Nota. Excommunicato aut fertura judice et tunc est
" poena delicti vel ab homine et tunc est poena conturriacisE in
" non veniendo vel parendo : utroque autem vel major qiuia privat
" a receptione sacramentorum et ab hominum consertio, qualis est
" hodie in usu (and is commonly called at this day Excommunicatio)
" vel minor qua: excludit a perceptione sacramentorum. Liber
" de Rubricis de Sent. Excommun." Note by Sir M. Hale to
F. N. B. 149. whose words also are those in English in the pa
renthesis. A further proof, that in the lesser excommunication
the laws of the land gave no aid to either party, is the tenor ofthe
King's Significavit, where a man was excommunicated by the,
Chancellor of Oxford. "Rex, &c. Quumnos, &c. Concesseri-
" mus quod Cancells. &c. significare possit et certificare de nomi-
«' nibus singulorum de jurisdictione prsefat. Cancellae, &c. qui
<• majoris Excornmunicationis vinculo fuerint iunodati." F. N. B.
*47«

43
had for asking,! firmly believe that no Catholic Bishop
in Ireland would wish to handle. Instead therefore of
general assertions on the ancient controul ofthe laws of
the land over tyrannical and oppressive proceedings, we
think it would be less tyrannical in the Writer to prove
some one certain point in which the provisions he
speaks of may fairly apply to the present state of Ca
tholics and Catholic- Clergy in Ireland.
, The only remedy, continues he, for the oppressed
Catholics, is an appeal to Rome, and he leaves it to his
hearers to judge what kind of justice may be expected
there. This, indeed, is un peu tropfort, to reduce the
argument to I leave you to guess. Is Rome then sworn
to do perpetual injustice without a bribe for so doing ?
If the Writer will take her for Antichrist, no man will
resent this, I trust : but, fanaticism apart, the philoso
phical and~equitable jurisprudence of Rome is thought
to be admirable by the Protestant States on the Conti
nent, and the lawyers of Saxony are not ashamed to
derive light and elegance from the advocates of the
consulta*. .. /
And why does the Gentleman argue on the supposi
tion that the Clergy in Ireland are necessarily to be
oppressors ? Possibly they may have given hitn offence
without meaning it : but, though this were the case, he
ought not to defame iu one breath their individual and
collective good name. He supposes that the Clergy
are always parties as well as.judges. The case is not so.
Far from it : and I hope, Sir, you will not consider it

* Appeals to Rome from excommunications by Bishops in Eng
land were always allowed until the great schism ; and this appeal*
being certifiVd into Chancery by the Bishops official (who had
signified the excommunication) a Supersedeas went forth to the
Sheriff to stop execution pendente appdlationis ncgotio supra dicta,
F. N. B. 148.
f2

44
unseasonable vanity in us, so slandered, to reply,
that far the greater part of the authority exercised by
the Clergy over Roman Catholics, is that of arbiters,
voluntarily sought ; in other words, of peace-makers.
It may be, that in this respect, as in onr Bishops,
Priests, and Deacons, we usurp some corporation fran
chises, or trench on the authorities of the Justices of
the Peace. Waving this frightful surmise, I wished
only to state to you, Sir, that this voluntary, ungainful,
and daily employment of our Clergy, must be good evi
dence to any not over-prejudiced Judge, that we do not
seek power to oppress : instigators are generally at hand
to solicit either of the parties to break those agreements,
for the sole purpose of harassing and endangering the
Clergy ; especially if there be such a judge as is disposed
to find every action of a tolerated clergyman to be ei
ther treason, robbery, or idolatry ; or, at best, an
usurpation of the franchises of a firm and compact body,
such as, a species of corporation or hierarchy.
XIII. " The Roman Catholic Clergy dissolve mar-
(< riages for causes not allowed by law, precontract,
" consanguinity, ok affinity, in degrees beyond those
" prescribed by the Legislature; and they license
" marriages within those degrees. The proof of suc-
t( cession and right of property remains with them."
(P- 20.)
This objection you have seen periodically renewed in
all the pamphlets published under the name of Dr.
Duigenan, and from those pamphlets it is now copied.
It was copied into those pamphlets from the Statute-
book, where, in the acts of 28 and 33 Hen. VIII. the
very same charges are made, but with a degree of cout
rage which since that time has never been rivalled*,

* (2$ Hen. 8. Irish ch. 2.) " And for as much as many incon-
*.* veniencies have fallen, as well in this your said land of Ireland,

45
until the revival of good faith and good breeding in the
said pamphlets. The object of the contrivers of the
former of those statutes, was to assure the lawfulness of
the King's marriage with Lady Ann Boleyn^ acd to
this end two things were required, the nullity of the
marriage with Catharine of Spain, artd the nullity of
Lady Ann's precontract with Lord Piercy. To intro
duce these matters in the shape of general provisions, it
was deemed, proper to assert that God's law had often
been violated; although the case principally had in
view, namely, the marriage of Henry witlu*bis brother's
widow, was at the same time argued to be unlawful, on
the strength of its standing sole. The impedimeht of
precontract alone per verba de futuro, was never al
lowed in the Catholic discipline to break a marriage
consummated ; hut at that time, the cause of divorce
having been evoked to Rome, it was plain that the
King could not there obtain a dispensation, and this
precontract must be done away by a general provision
founded on a notorious lie ; whereas, the avowed disci
pline of the Church of Rome, for hundreds of years
before this event, was, that a precontract per verba de
futuro, even confirmed by oath, did not amount to
marriage, nor dissolve a marriage subsequent: 2. That

" &c. by reason of marrying within the degrees of marriage prohi-
" bited by God's law — that is to say, the sun to marry the mother or
" stepmother, the brother the sister, the father the son's davghter,$c."
(33 Hen. 8. cap- 7.) "Divers and many persons, after longconti-
" nuance together in matrimony without any allegation of either
,k ofthe parties, &c. . . . And after same marriage solemnized and
" consummate by, &c. and sometimes fruit of children, neverthe-,
" less by an unjust law ofthe Bishop of Rome, which is, that, upon
" pretence of a former contract made and not consummate, have
" been divorced and separated." To the honour of controversial
warfare, the charges contained in the above two specimens of false
hood, were thought too foul to be brought into action until the
period above mentioned.

46
a sworn contract per verba de futuro, if possession fol
lowed, though not a marriage, yet inferred in consci
ence a marriage, because it deteriorated one ofthe par
ties beyond a recompense, and, without great iniquity,
such contract could neither be broken off, nor be sup
posed not serious, nor be permitted to remain unac
complished*. — (Summa S. Thomae de Matrimon. Q. 46.
Art. 1. 2.) This discipline however has been changed
by the Council of Trent ; and at present I can find no
difference between the discipline of the Church of
England and that of the Church of Rome on this
subject. The impediments of consanguinity and affinity do
certainly exist; but it is equally certain, that in no
case are they extended by us to interfere with any civil
loss or gain, insomuch that at the same time we declare
the immorality of the connection between the parties,
we. have always taken care not to confound the civil
effects of the legal contract with the repentance of the
parties. In no case does the proof of property, or proof
of succession remain with us, unless where the marriage
discipline of any Dissenter would be allowed -\.
XIV. Another accusation, and a very harmless one,
is tbe following: " In England (page 24 and 25.) the
"Roman Catholics ofthe lower orders are distinguished
* And such was the discipline of the Church of England, under
the modem statute against clandestine marriages.
¦f The degrees beyond which marriages are good in law, are those
expressed in the xviii Leviticus, which the 28th of Henry VIII. iu
littering its slanders, copied verse by verse to such an intolerable
degree of audacity as to accuse the whole Christian Church, under
the name of the Bishop of Rome, of licencing the marriages of
men with their grand, daughters. In Portugal, by their Acts of
Settlement, intermarriages of the Royal blood are sometimes so
lemnized within Levitical degrees, that is, within the second
canonical degree. It is evident, that in these two points, the writer
knew not what he was copying.

47
" from their equals in the other sects by greater tem-
" perance, better conduct, and greater submissiveness
" to law." In Ireland, the writer confidently asks
Gentlemen who have seen the Irish at home, " Whe-
" ther tbe fact be not the reverse f" This difference
which the author gives us to understand, very forcibly
struck his mind, he admirably explains, as usual, by the
grand solution — the priests only. " Because," says he,
" in England the priests know, they can expect indul-
" gence only by -inculcating morality, while in Ireland
" the same description unfortunately conceive, that ihe
" realizing all their ambitious hopes depends on keep-
" ing a spirit of disobedience alive. They accordingly
" neglect morals, and make religion depend on ob-
" servances." With the truth of these observations he
is strongly impressed. (Ibid.)
The observations are ingenious, and come with
great propriety from this author, who in every argument
he puts together, discovers that very inference he
wished to find, and in every observation, most clearly
sees the truth of what his owrt surmises had long before
taught him. The facts are these. In England, Catholics
are rather more orderly than Protestants: in Ireland,
Catholics are worse than Protestants, speaking of the
lower classes in both countries. Suppose the data-true.
Would not you, Sir, on hearing of the contrast, natur
ally, and from habitual philosophy, make answer,
that most probably, in England, the Protestants are the
multitude, and, in Ireland, the multitude is Catholic}
and since the age of the seven sages of Greece, the
proverb has been current, that the multitude is ihe bad
proportion. This explanation would not be, very far
fetched ; but our author drinks deep in causes, and will
come up to the fountain head ; viz. the priests, in whom
he discovers all causes of evil, as the Manicheans did
in their bad principle.

48
In the first place he does not understand, that the
same reason which, in his system, impugns the Ca
tholic Priests of Ireland, does ultimately assail the
established Clergy of England. If it is the neglect,
or comparative neglect of the Clergy, that causes ihe
moral inferiority of their flocks, his accusation strikes
with a double edge, and the Protestant Clergy of Ireland
do not gain on the whole; for it is an acknowledged
fact, that the Quakers of Ireland, notwithstanding their
avowed equalizing principles, have so far outdone the
Protestants, in peaceable demeanour, that during tbe
rebellion they passed every where unmolested, and since
that time, have been entirely forgotten in. all charges
and recriminations among all the other parties.
In the second place it is very extraordinary, that he
should look here in Ireland for the opportunity of
making a contrast, inasmuch as he himself allows that
in " many parts of the country not a Protestant of the
" lower order can be found," (page 48.) This pheno
menon he will explain to you presently, by his specific
arcanum, the Priests; but for the present, allowing the
fact, would it be fair reasoning to infer the want of
morals in any religious "sect, or the want of inculcation
of morals, because the house-robberies happened to be
generally committed by persons of that sect, and it
appeared aliunde, that all the poor belonged to this
sect, and all the rich, and almost none but rich folks,
belonged to. some other persuasion. These are certain
crimes, and even certain divine precepts, from the
literal commission or violation of which some descrip
tions of life are almost secured ; and to judge ofthe
quantum of morality existing in any society, from the
instances of submission to positive law, without taking
into account the natural wants and the violent tempta
tions resulting from those wants-, may be sound penal
statute criticism, but is atrocious jurisprudence.- In

49
England, the proportion of Catholic Clergy to that in
Ireland, may be as four to seven, while the proportion
of Catholics is nearly as four to one hundred and thirty-
five. In England, three or five hundred will constitute a
flock : in Dublin, one parish has above seventeen thou
sand. In England, the property ofthe Roman Catholics
is perhaps doubly greater than that of near three millions
of Catholics ia Ireland, who consequently form the lower
order of the country, and whose riotous appearance,
and, no doubt, whose hungry appearance, so forcibly
impressed the guilt of our Priests on the present observer.
In your country, the lower orders can read, and profit
ofthe instructions conveyed in books. In this country,
they are generally illiterate, and servants of the glebe;
and cut off by a thousand disadvantages from rising by
industry, they stagnate and cluster in the confines of
labour and despondence, from which discontents, and
desperate vices originate. In England, the instructions
of any Christian teacher are not thwarted. Here, it is
quite the contrary ; and to undermine popery in the
minds of the common people, the first approaches are
attempts in various shapes, to obliterate all religious
ideas; from which the natural consequence flows, that
such of the lower orders as, from time to time, have
conformed to the established religion, have become Sin
gularly unprincipled men, and re-acted their ill charac
ter against their own example. But, though I could
tire you out with enumerating other true and determin
ing causes, and then allow you to transfer to the Catho
lic Clergy the surplus of guilt unexplained, I will cut
short with bringing to your mind that drunkenness,
which about fifty years ago had nearly destroyed your
capital, while it was decimating your population, and
which therefore was repressed with a high hand; that
this exterminating and abominable vice is suffered to
g

50
reign in Ireland, and that while this reigns the people
will be wretched and vicious. There is no country in
Europe besides, where deadly poison is vended with
licence ; and what is more afflicting, where the pro
duce is called a state revenue. This cause, which no
man can walk half a street without observing, and
which would be sufficient to explain weekly rebellions,
our author, who looks beyond the surface of things, has
passed over. He finds guilt only where he wishes to
punish, and punishes only what he hates or dis
likes. XV. " He has reason to think (pp. 27, 28.) that
" many ofthe Parish Priests in Ireland would be satis-
" fied to live in harmony with the Protestants, ifper-
" mitted to do so by those who exercise authority over
" them, but they are not permitted."
This being, in my opinion, not even a plausible
charge, I pass it over in silence.
XVI. The intelligence concerning the Catholics of
Canada, and their- averseness to the jurisdiction exer
cised by the Bishop, (pp. 26, 27.) deserves as short a
criticism. It is totally grounded on misinformation.
XVII. If it be true, that ihe mezzo termine of family
prayer has been, on some occasions, merely a bait for
introducing religions topics, and detaching the ignorant
Roman Catholics from the practice of their own reli
gion, it must have appeared very suspicious, and will
readily account for the conduct of the late Doctor
Hussey ; on which the writer ofthe pamphlet remarks,
(pp. 27, 28, 29.) Certainly, if Roman Catholics should
attempt the same thing with their Protestant servants, it
would immediately become the matter of jealous in
quiry *.
•The long-winded paradox in page* 31, 32, 33. of which the
upshot is this, that the lower order of Catholics most strongly wish

51
XVIII. The Writer's remark on the Petition wanting
the signatures of the Irish Clergy, (p. 44.) I dare
say has not forcibly struck you as a truth, since you are
in possession ofthe real cause, in common with every
friend to the Catholic claim ; and, 1 think, with every
Gentleman who made any inquiry into the cause. His
maxim, so often insisted on, that it is an essential pro
perty of human nature to seize upon whatever is an
object of temptation, notwithstanding the most sacred
pledges given to the contrary, manifests a sovereign
disbelief in the possibility of human virtue.
XIX. The specimen he gives of Irish history, (pp.
21, 22, 23.) from Henry VIII. to William III. is chiefly
remarkable for two things ; of which the first is, that it
omits every principal fact that would affect his inference,
and takes in every fact that has been demonstratively
refuted. Were the issue joined on this, any man of
moderate acquaintance with our history, could easily
shew him, that an extract from the history of the
Assyrians would have served his purpose as well.
XX. The story of the Protestant and Catholic ser
vants, (p. 49-) is too glaringly inconsistent to need re
futation. XXI. That Heretic and Englishman is expressed
by the same word in thelrish language (p. 49.) is a curi
ous discovery. The author. appears to be an Englishman,
and has possibly made great advances in the Milesian
tongue. However, I recollect that tins very same dis
covery appeared in two former pamphlets, and likewise
in two speeches published here under the name of Dr.
for the abolition of tithes, and that to keep up the old claim to
tithes, the Roman Catholic Priests place them artfully by the side
ofthe forfeited estates, is false, if it be not worse; and, iftrue^
would overthrow all the former stories concerning the despotism
®f the Clergy.
g2

52
Duigenan, from which it is probable our Writer derived
his information. 1 am given to understand that th&
Irish word means a Saxon, and must be therefore of
high antiquity in its application, and that it eventually
denotes a Protestant as a man attached to the English
Church and liturgy. I am much mistaken if you
Englishmen do not .retaliate, in calling us sometimes
Romans and sometimes Romanists. In my present ig
norance of the resources of our Irish language, I must
be allowed to doubt as to Heretic and Englishman being
expressed by the same word. If so, it must be very
perplexing to find an Irish epithet for an English Ca
tholic. This terrible Irish word, this popish doable
entendre, he informs you, (ibid.) is employed by the
Catholic Priests to stir up hatred against the Protestants,
as Englishmen and Heretics. This, indeed, is a master
piece of art on the part of the Priests. In the Catholic
Church of Dublin there are, I believe, as many of
English blood, -name, and language, as there are Ro
man Catholics in England separately. What excessive
craft is it then in the Priests to confound the origin
with the heresy, and thus stir up with one word the
people against themselves. I myself could hardly
escape : but, I beg your pardon, Sir, for seeming to
argue against such an objection.
XXII. The Writer takes more than one opportunity
to urge, that the Catholic religiou is intolerant, but the
Protestant is tolerant, — that, consequently, the Pro
testant religion may, with safety, be admitted to an
equality of privileges in a state governed by a different
religion, but that the Catholic cannot. The argument
of intolerance would be almost unanswerable, had this
very speech been made by a Catholic. For my part,
J think that every sect in proportion as it is Christian,
is tolerant of persons and intolerant of error. But, in
the present case, I fear the author is declaiming against

53
fact; for wherever the Catholicreligion has been admitted
to an equality, it has been as tolerant as the Protestant
religion. Witness Maryland, Switzerland, the German
states, and Prussia. I leave it to you, Sir, whether the
tolerant side can bring as many instances of toleration.
In Ireland truly it would be very hard to find them.
XXIII. He dwells in several places on the fallacy,
breach of faith, and so forth, of which the Parlia
ment would become guilty in acceding to thd wish of
the Petitioners : that the establishment of the Pro
testant Church in England and Ireland has become
a fundamental article df the late Union, and that
the exclusion ofthe popish religion from political power
has become an essential part-of the constitution.
Remitting to you, Sir, and to men of political sci
ence, the decision of the last assertion, I am really
pleased to find the Writer appeal to such principles as
good faith and public honesty, from legislative com
petence. The " uti inter bonos, bono jure agier opor-
" tet," is surely a principle, which no power that
affects dignity ought to lay aside in explaining its own
compacts and concessions. Let us try this Writer by
his own text. The Catholic Religion had been in Ire
land the object of proscription for 240 years, and
every vulnerable . point had been attempted. The
statutes most accurately distinguished the tenets from
the disobedience to law, and punished the Catholic as
well for his speculative religion as for his non-cou-
formity : he was an idolater, and therefore declared, by
the tolerant established Church of Ireland, not to be
allowed any toleration, for any reason of state, or auy
worldly good : he was a re.bel by denying the Eccle
siastical Supremacy of the Crown ; and for this crime,
persisted in, he incurred the pains of high-treason :
the priestly character and functions were distinctly out
lawed, and the character of Bishops, exercising such

54
jurisdiction, was separately made guilty and punish
able. " All this premised, a repeal of all penal statutes
(with a saving to some lay privileges, the established
Church, certain marriages, and walled towns) is enact
ed, and not twelve years after such repeal, this same
Writer, iu the face of day, and in the teeth of good
faith and public honesty, openly argues by inferences
for a new persecution of this Catholic Religion,
by abstracting the toleration granted to the tenets,
from that granted to the Clergy : in other words,
by allowing the repeal to operate on the statutes
against the Seven Sacraments, and quashing its opera
tion on the statutes against the ministers of religion.
Et heee est fides vestra ? Will Englishmen approve this ?
 Again, if public faith and the agreement of men
are to be respected, his assertion, that to admit Catho
lics to further political rights would be an infringement
on the late Union, is a monstrous position, and can
never be made good, without establishing against very
great men the heinous charge of faith-breaking. Pray,
Sir, was it ever understood in the English Parliament,
that this establishment of the Irish Church made it a
fundamental point, not to better the condition of the
Catholics, or was not the direct contradiction to this
assertion made when the great Statesman enumerated
this benefit of it as likely to arise to Catholics, from the
Union, as well as the security ofthe Church ? Was the
text of Adam Smith never quoted, or not constantly
relied on, and does not this text assert the perfect
restoration of Catholics, and the destruction of religious
tyranny by the few over the people, as the second
great benefit of that projected Union ? The Writer who
publishes under the name of Doctor Duigenan has told
you, that the jails in Ireland were canvassed for signa
tures : this, I am certain, is false ; but what he allows
is evident, that the Catholics were resorted to ; and this

55
is most true. If theavowed end and mutual understanding
of an agreement is to be overthrown by mental reserva
tions to the exact contrary ; if the Catholics, by wish
ing and meaning to accept of peace, justice, and the
hallowed prospect of constitutional freedom, were" en
snared to consent to the sentence and execution of all
their hopes, I had rather be so deceived than so deceiv
ing : but, were I to plead for such deception, like the
writer of the — Substance, — I would not, like him, al
lude to such a word as public faith : and since the
Writer so confidently objects the constitution, will he
undertake to answer this plain question: "If it is the
essence of the constitution, that the King's liege sub
jects are the people, and by the constitution their birth
right is freedom, and this freedom is, to be representa
tively admitted to a share in the legislative office, and
the people of Ireland are, morally speaking, Catholics,
is it a part of the constitution, or a suspension of the
constitution, to deny the people their birth-right ?"
XXIV. His answer to the argument taken from
the Church of Scotland I do not well see the force of,
as I do not conceive his meaning, when, to shew that
the Petitioners are not to be heard, he asserts erro
neously, that the Episcopal Jurisdiction now exercised
by the Catholic Clergy is against law. Male fertur
exceptio ejusdem rei cujus petitur dissolutio. When the
penal laws were repealed, it was never objected, to my
remembrance, that the religion about to be tolerated
was against standing laws ; because, I imagine, the
repeal was intended of those standing laws, against
which that religion stood ; in other- words, which stood
against that religion. The objection goes to prove, that
no law whatsoever ought to be repealed. The argu
ment taken from the Presbyterian establishment in
Scotland was the following : That, although the form
of religion there was opposite to that in England, yet

56
no evil had ensued to the episcopal establishment from
ihe admission of Presbyterians info Parliament, altho'
the worst consequences had been foreboded : that the
Catholics, if admitted into Parliament, might there
fore be supposed to respect tbe established1 religion.
The Writer answers, that the Presbyterian form had
been already established in Scotland : true. That in
Scotland, it had nothing further to claim : true. That
in England, it had nothing to hope : this is false, if it
mean that there are no objects of ambition in England
for the Presbyterian. If it means, no object attainable
by law against the majority ofthe other religion in the
House of Commons, it applies with ten-fold force, to
put down any such hopes of 'Catholics, though ad
mitted into Parliament. That the Presbyterian Church
not exceeding its lawful claims, was the best security for
its own possession : this applies evidently to the case of
the Catholics also. The argument, therefore, taken
from the Presbyterian establishment in Scotland, so far
as it was intended to prove, is demonstrative. The dif
ference he takes between the object of the petition, and
the tendency of this argument, is grounded on a false
supposition ; namely, that the Petitioners wished to
have all the offices of state thrown open to the Catho
lics of all parts of the empire, whereas out of Scotland
the Presbyterians are obliged to qualify for the high
offices of state in England. It is not true, that the Pe
tition was urged in behalf of the Catholics of all parts of
the empire, but ofthe Catholics of Ireland, and with
regard to the high offices in England, it was retalia
tion, and no more ! for to hold any jurisdiction in
Scotland, an Englishman must qualify according to the
church established there: whereas, in the event of
emancipation, as it is termed, the Catholics having no
established church in Ireland, could not exclude a
fellow-subject.

57
XXV. The long argument by which he under
takes to shew (pp. 37, 38, 39, 41.) that the Catholics
of Ireland do not swear allegiance according to the
limitations provided by the Act of Succession and
Settlement, is an entire mistake. The facts he relies on
are either perversions or inventions. The Irish Roman
Catholics swear allegiance explicitly according to that
act ; and the omission of the words, " being Pro-
" testants," in the recital ofthe title of that act, while
the act itself is designated with all certainty, gives no
possibility of evasion, and ought therefore to give no
colour to accusation. The Catholics were not the au
thors of that omission, nor is there one amongst them,
I am certain, who either considers it as an advantage,
or would move a finger to prevent the insertion of those
two so efficacious words. The Writer has strangely
misrepresented the co&duct of the Apostolical Vicars
in England, of the Roman Catholic Prelates of Ire
land, andof the Court of Rome respecting this test.
The Bishop of St. Asaph, who acted a very conspicu
ous part in the parliamentary discussion upon it, states
the proceedings accurately. (See the printed Speech
of this learned Prelate on the Catholic Petition, p. 6.
also Dr. Milner's Short View, fyc. pp. 17 and'18.)
XXVI. The abolitioh of the Catholic Hierarchy,
so importunately called for by this Writer, (pp. 14. 25.
33. 41. 51.) although in itself an event which no
• foresight or effort of ours can either repel or defer, is
still a matter that you would blame my not adverting to,
at least so far as to mention what I should consider the
natural consequences of such an event.
I think, that it is easy to kill all the Roman Catholic
Bishops in Ireland. I fear that some persons would re
joice at it ; those, I mean, who suffer themselves to be
so fretted by pride or envy, as to think their own legal
and constitutional respectability insulted, when they see
h

58
a Catholic peasant doff h'is hat to his country priest.
I do not think it so easy to abolish this Episcopacy ;
because its name, and reverence, and utility, are inter
woven with the religion, esteem, attachment, and ad
herence of the people. I will say more : (and with
twenty-nine years of Episcopacy, and some observa
tion, I may consider myself not superficially acquaint
ed with the subject) The Episcopacy of the estab
lished Church in Ireland could not promise itself a
year's quiet tenure, when once the name had been re
moved from the Catholic body. I do not, indeed, ap
prehend this persecution as imminent, although I can
not but see in certain persons of power a great impa
tience to enjoy such a spectacle.
If, however, the secular arm should be. won to aid
the gratification of unmerited resentment or other selfish
passions ; and if my last years should be overtaken by
the grasp of those most tolerant men to whom I allude,
I trust in' God that I shall not dishonour my 'predeces
sors who evangelized from the prison-cell, nor desert the
testimony with which I was entrusted, until I resign my
mission to him whose 'humble Vicar I am; that is, to
Christ the Bishop of Souls.
I have the honour tobe, with great respect, Your's, &c.
J. T. TROY.
Sir J. C. Hippisley, Bart. M. P.

59

[No. V.]
From the Rev. Dr. Moylan, titular R. C. Bishop of
• Cork, toJSir J. C. Hippisley, Bart. M. P-,
Dated Cork, %4th August, 1805.
[EXTRACT.]
1 Lament that his Lordship [Lord R.] had not
. more dispassionately considered his assertions against
the conduct and principles of the R. C. Clergy and
Hierarchy of this kingdom, before he hazarded impos
ing them on the public by bis authority. — We solemnly
protest against his representation of them. — Could we
entertain the slightest' hope, 'that his Lordship would
condescend to grant us, what he refused in the House
of Peers to the pressing demands of some Noble Lords,
and of that gallant and patriotic Nobleman, Lord
Hutchinson, in particular, we would with all humility
solicit some proof of the following assertions. ,
" They (the R. C. Clergy) assume all the power, and
" claim all the revenues of fhe ancient Clergy of Ire-
" land, and treat the Clergy of the reformed religion
" as usurpers." — " They refuse to acknowledge the va-
Vf lidity of those laws, by which the revenues of the
" church establishment are transferred to the niinisters
" ofthe established Church."---" They deny to the Le-
" gislature ofthe country all power over the ranks, dig-
" nities and authorities, and even the revenues of the
" Church."— "They are not connected, by any tie, with
"the state."— " They teach, in tbfir catechisms, that
" the people are bound; topay them the tithes." 
h «

60
In countries not enjoying the blessings of our free
constitution, men in power may with impunity insult
the persons, vilify the characters, and isritale ihe feel
ings of the less favoured portion of the community ;
but that the same may be practised on unoffending sub
jects in a country governed by the most perfect system
of political and civil freedom, it has been reserved for
the Head himself of the law department in Ireland to
demonstrate. — But, with whatever deference the R. C.
Clergy of this kingdom must submit to his Lordship's
decisions in his court, touching any litigated property^
they do positively refuse his Lordship any power to alie
nate their characters."- — In the general wreck they flat
tered themselves hitherto with having preserved their
honour. From assertions, tending to deprive them of
that, unfounded in fact, and not supported by a shadow
of evidence, they appeal to the justice ofthe public: —
they appeal to every man of principle and honour in
Ireland : — they appeal to their countrymen, Protestant
Clergy and Laity, and do not hesitate to declare ; that
not one man of character or reputation in Ireland can
come forward and state, that the R. C. Clergy, do or
have represented or treated the Clergy of the established
Church as usurpers of their livings — or. that the Legis
lature have no power fo make such laws as they have
made in regard to church property.
In the Catholic Catechism this question is put :— —
Q. Which is the fifth commandment of the Church ?— •
Answer, To pay tithes to our pastors. — This is quoted by
Lord Redesdale, but mark that candour which omits
noticing the explanation given in the very next ques
tion.— -Q. What means the commandment, to pay tithes
to our paslors't — Answer, By this we are commanded to
contribute to the support of our Clergy. — Notwithstand
ing this exposition of the commandment, which Lord R.
must have seen, he charges the R.C. Clergy with claim-

61
ing the tit lies, though he must know, if he knows any
thing of the history of this unfortunate country, that
for the last 200. years, no R^C. Clergyman has received
or claimed any tithe of. land ; nay, has paid himself
the tithe of the produce of his, own farm, and all the
church rates and ministers money in towns ; except,
when the politeness ofthe incumbent made him a com
pliment of it.
Another assertion of the Noble Lord — "That when-
" ever any plan for the commutation of tithes was pro-
" posed, it was constantly treated by the R. C. Clergy
" with the strongest terms of reprobation, from the
" hopes they entertain of recovering them at some f u-
" ture day." — This assertion stands on the same foun
dation with his other assertions. — Inasmuch as this com
mutation would, in the minds of the most intelligent
persons, tend much to the permanent tranquillity and
peace of the country, by removing from the lowest
order of the people' of this kingdom an annual cause of
disaffection and uneasiness, the R. C. Clergy, far from
opposing it, would rejoice in it. But as they are not
personally concerned, and have no voice in the Legis
lature, it does riot belong to them to discuss this delicate
question. — Lord R. asserts, that the R. C. Clergy are
not connected by any tie with the state. — They have
however, taken the oath of allegiance, the strongest tie
in their minds, that could be devised. Others may
think that the honours and emoluments, places and
pensions are the only ties, by which a subject can be
bound or connected with the Sovereign : — they shall not
controvert their opinions, but content themselves with
adhering to their own. — The R. C. Religion, after 200
years of suffering and unexampled patience, is still the
religion of the majority of the Irish people. It's Pas
tors and Hierarchy exercise none but spiritual autho
rity : — they have hitherto and will persevere, for con-

62
science sake, notwithstanding the calumnies and misre
presentations of their enemies, to instruct their people
in religion, to exhort them to loyalty, to peace and
good order. — Their religion being, through the wisdom
and liberality-of the Legislature, now protected, by law,
in Ireland, it's ministers being as well entitled to the
protection of the law, as any other loyal subjects, with
which his Lordship surely cannot be unacquainted ;
what can he mean, by insisting, as he does, on the ne
cessity of abolishing the R. C. Hierarchy in this king
dom, and the extinction of the R. C. Religion in this
country, but the re-enacting of the old code of penal
laws, and that persecution should become the order of
the day? — Thanks to God, it does not depend on him,
nor on those advisers, whose sentiments his Lordship has
too hastily and without due consideration adopted ! —
How far these measures may be consistent with the real
good and prosperity ofthe empire, the Legislature,- and
not Lord R., must decide.

F. MOYLAN.

63

[No. VI,]

From the Rev. J. Milner, D.D. F.S.A. V. A.
to Sir J. C. Hippisley, Bart. M. P.
Dated Wolverhampton, Dec. 31, 1805.
Dear Sir, NOTHING has surprised me
more than that men of superior rank, talents and in
formation, men zealously devoted to the security and
welfare of their King and country, arid enemies to ex
periments and innovations of every/ kind in the line of
politics, should, nevertheless, so decidedly and earnestly,
in times like these, have declared themselves for the
proscription and extinction of the Catholic Hierarchy
in Ireland, as I have lately witnessed to be the case.
In matters of a doubtful aspect I should think it right
to be guided by the opinion of such men ; but it would
be madness to follow them, when I see, with perfect
evidence, that they themselves are misled by prejudice
and wrong information.
To hear the language of the persons alluded to, it
might be supposed, that the Catholic Church had vari
ous forms of ecclesiastical government iu the different
countries which have embraced her faith, and that she
had latterly, from a spirit of hostility to the established
Church in Ireland, adopted that form there which she
judged would be most offensive to it. — But has this
really been the case ? — No, Sir, the Hierarchy, consist
ing of Bishops, Priests and inferior Clergy, is, as she

64
has solemnly defined, essential to her constitution. She
can no more part with it where it actually exists, or
modify it, than she can do the same with any other of
her sacraments. Accordingly tho Catholic Hierarchy
was introduced' into Ireland by St. Patrick in the
fifth century, with Christianity itself, and it is the
glory of the Irish Catholics, that this has continued
unimpaired and in regular succession amongst them,
from that remote period down to the present day. It
is true, the Legislature has, by various acts, during the
three last centuries, stripped this Hierarchy of all and
every one of its civil advantages and external honours,
such as possessions, revenue and rank, and it bows, with
entire submission, to these ordinances of the supreme
power ofthe state. Still its essential right of teaching,
administering and presiding in things relating to eternal
"salvation, remains the same. As these are things which
are not of this world, so, we may humbly presume. they
are removed out of the reach of it. I admit indeed that
in some countries out of which the regular Hierarchy has
been extirpated by persecution, and in others, where the
Catholic religion has hardly obtained a footing, there
are no resident Bishops. But this very statement shews
the religion in such circumstances is not in its perfect
condition : and I may add that, even in these circum
stances, it is not devoid of the authority of episcopal
government. What a mockery then is it to offer the
Irish Catholics civil advantages on condition of their
giving up their Hierarchy ! It is in fact no more than
repeating to them what they have ever heard since the
first penal law was enacted against them : viz. You shall
not suffer any inconvenience from the practice of your
religion provided you will agree to renounce that reli
gion. — To assert, as some have done, that there are
Catholics in Canada, and others in Ireland, who wish
to be exempt from episcopal government, is no more

65
{supposing but not admitting the fact) than, in sub
stance, to assert that there are Catholics in both those
countries, who either do not understand their religion,
or are indifferent about it. Perhaps some of these may
think what they say, but it is probable that most of
them say what they perceive to be agreeable to those
with whom they converse.
I now proceed to inquire, what advantage the go
vernment of the country would derive from suppressing
the Catholic Episcopacy and new modelling the seve
ral parishes and congregations in Ireland now subject
to it into Presbyterian or Independant Societies, as these
politicians wish to be done. Is it then a point estab
lished either by theory or experience, that the Republican
or Democratic forms of government, whether ecclesias
tical or civil, are more peaceable and orderly than the
Monarchical or Aristocratic forms? Does our history
shew the disciples of Calvin to have been more loyal
to their King, and more amenable to the laws of their
country than the members of the Church of England ?
If this cannot be said, but rather, if the reverse of this
must be maintained ; I ask to what other adequate cause
this can be attributed, except to the independant form
of government amongst the former and to the Hierar
chical form amongst the latter? Strange indeed is tbe
proposal of turning the Catholics into Calvinists and
Puritans, in order to make them better subjects!
And what after all is the misconduct of the Catholic
Bishops that Calls for their suppression ? Is it that they
exhibit in their private life lessons of piety and virtue
which their enemies have not yet dared to impeach?
Or is it that they have devoted themselves to the in
structing, reforming and tranquillizing their respective
flocks, with an ardour, perseverance and disinterested
ness that perhaps never was equalled in similar circum
stances? Recollect, Sir, their exertions in supporting
i

66
the peace and order of their country during. all that
tempestuous season which began with the French Re
volution. Read my venerable friend Dr. Moylan's
Address to the Catholics of Cork, written on the spur of
the occasion, when Hoche was off the coast, and when'
bank notes were waste paper in that city; an Address
to which the Viceroy, in his official dispatches, very
justly attributes the most beneficial effects. Read the
several Exhortations and Pastoral Instructions of another
honoured friend of mine, Dr. Troy, as likewise those of
Dr. Coppinger, but read them, as they speak for them
selves to your own impartial judgment and candid heart,
without the envenomed glossesof their enemies. Inshort,
Sir, read the two volume's of similar Exhortations and Re
monstrances which were printed and circulated by the Ca
tholic Prelates during the late unhappy rebellion. Hav
ing perused these I am sure you will acknowledge that,
if you have met with other compositions superior to them
in eloquence, which with me is a question, you have
never met with any that breathe a more ardent, gene
rous and exalted spirit of patriotism and loyalty than
they do. These publications, however, constituted but
a small part of the merit of these excellent men on that
trying occasion. They were indefatigably employed
(I mean those whose flocks were in a state, or on the
verge of insurrection) in personal exertions, as well as
by means of their respective Clergy, in disarming the
rebellious, in appeasing the discontented, and in con
firming the loyal and peaceable ; and all this they did
at the risk of their authority, of their property, and of
their lives. I do not mean, Sir, to degrade the loyalty
of the established Hierarchy ; on the contrary, 1 have
praised it. Still I may be allowed to ask, whether you
meet with equal exertions, on their part, in the history
of the! Grand Rebellion, or in that ofthe Popery Riots
in 1780? The.truth is, Sir, many of the Catholic Bi^

67
shops of Ireland deserve statues from their country;
and yet thei'e are found men of patriotism and loyalty,
who are never weary with insulting and persecuting
them ! The main point, however, Sir, for you to deter-
mine> in your own mind at present is this : whether, if
these men had succeeded in extinguishing the Hierar
chy of Catholic Bishops previously to the Rebellion,
the independant Priests would or could have exerted
themselves with greater ardour and unanimity, in the
cause of order and loyalty, than their superiors have
done ?
Still, it is asserted, that the Hierarchy in question is'
an establishment not to be borne with, inasmuch as it-
stands in defiance ofthe law, and causes the legal Dig
nitaries a'nd Clergy to find rivals of the catholic persna-
^sion in each one of their respective stations.
But give me leave to ask, Sir, whether the established
Clergy do not find other rivals beside the Catholic
Clergy ? What are the Presbyterian Ministers, the
Methodist, Quaker, New Jerusalem, and other dissent
ing teachers, spread over every part of the United
Kingdom, but men, who profess to be the only right
and trust-worthy teachers and ministers of religion,'
within their respective districts; man}' of whom have
gradations of dignity and authority amongst them, no'
less than the Catholics ? In fact, Sir, this argument,
if it had any weight, would lead to a universal- extermi
nation by fire and sword, of every religion in every
country, except that which is established by the state.'
The truth evidently is, that the, ministers of most of
the several religions, and the Catholic Clergy inpar-
ticular, are recognised by the law ofthe land in nume
rous instances. I grant, indeed, that if our Bishops
claimed the palaces and cathedrals, and our Parish
Priests the tithes and the churches of the county, there
would be grounds for the objection of our adversaries.

But as they have, in the most formal and solemn man
ner, disavowed all such claims, the law is no more in
fringed and the established Clergy is no more affronted
by their keeping up their original titles and by their
claiming and exercising the mere spiritual jurisdiction
belonging to those titles, than when any of the above-
mentioned Dissenters professes to teach the word of
God in the conventicle belonging to his sect.
But, says the Anti-Catholic party : Your Hierarchy
enforces its authority by the most dreadful of all means,.
the power of Excommunication ; a power restrained by
no law, subject to uo controul, and inconsistent with
the public peace.
Well, Sir, let us suppose all this to be truer just in the
manner that has been objected. And let us suppose «
that, ih punishment of their abuse of power, the Hie
rarchy was destroyed and all the Catholic Bishops in
Ireland were put to death, or deported a la. Francaise,
what would be gained to the public peace thereby as
far as the power of excommunicating interrupts it?
You would get rid of about twenty-five Prelates, who*
now possess the exclusive* right of Excommunication,
and you would leave that weapon to be taken up and
used, at their pleasure, by as many hundreds of inferior
Clergy, the bulk of whom cannot be supposed to be
possessed of more discretion and moderation than their
superiors ! How sparing the Prelates are in exercising
this censure will appear from the following fact, that
not more than two persons have been excommunicated
in the great Catholic District, of Dublin, during nine
teen years that my honoured friend, Dr. Troy, has been
at tbe head of it, and one of the persons, if I do not
mistake, was excommunicated for Jacobinical princi
ples and practices. Indeed almost the only use which,
the present Catholic Prelates have made of this power
was in restraining and repressnag the late fatal rebel-

69
lion. On that occasion the very persons who are now
the most eager to deprive the Prelates of this power,
were the loudest in calling for its aid and proclaiming its
utility !
Aye but, rejoin these persons, it is one part of our
plan, as we have already intimated, when the Bishops
are put down, to subject the power of excommunica
tion to our controul, in whatsoever hands it may be
found. What : is it consistent with justice and common
sense that those persons should determine who are and
who are not fit to be members of our Church, whilst
they themselves do not belong to it ? nay, whilst they
openly profess their intention of using every means in
their power for its subversion? And why, after all,
should we be restrained in the exercise of a right which
is inherent in and essential to every society whatsoever?
For do not the Presbyterians and other Dissenters ex
communicate, and in some circumstances also inflict
public penances ? Has not the law, in a late instance,
justified Quakers in refusing to admit an excommuni
cated member into one of their Meeting-- Ho uses? x Do
not the Jews and the very Gentoos excommunicate?
Nay, does not every Freemason's Club, and every other
Club, of whatever denomination, claim a right to dis
miss refractory members ? You are not obliged to enter
into or to continue in any of these societies; but if you
will belong to them, common sense tells you that you
must observe their respective regulations.
But, continue these antagonists, Excommunication
amongst Catholics is very different from the same cen
sure in the established Church and in other commu
nions. It is an interdictio ab aqua et igne. Any per
son against whom it is denounced might starve, if not
relieved by the charity of Protestants. In proof of this,
they tell us of a recent instance, in which 200 persons,

70"
merely for having spoken to certain persons who had
been excommunicated in consequence of a misde
meanor for which they had made previous atonement,.
were themselves obliged, under a threat of similar ex
communication, to march twenty miles in- order to
make their submission to the Bishop's Vicar, and then
to march thirty miles further, by way of penance for
their fault, carrying labels on their breasts to testify the
same, or being obliged to proclaim it, with their voices,
to all whom they met.
To this statement I answer, that Excommunication
is indeed a very different thing, as it is exercised in the
established Church of Ireland and in the Catholic
Church ; but that the effects of it are precisely the re
verse of , what these adversaries represent. In the for
mer, it is attended with the most terrible civil effects,,
being nearly equal to legal proscription. In the latter,
it js barely and simply; an exclusion of the censured
party from the prayers and sacraments of Catholics.
This is so far a true account, that, to my certain know
ledge, the Catholic Bishop or his Vicar would not
cause an excommunicated person to be forcibly turned
out of the very chapel in which he had been so cen
sured. With respect to the fifty miles procession of
the 200 penitents, in punishment of their having had
intercourse with other penitents, it is just as credible a
story as if any one were to publish, that 200 Hottentots-
had landed at Oxford, and thence had marched to
London with labels of insurrection to lay siege to the
Tower! If the personages who gave credit to this fa
brication of mean sycophants had been acquainted with
the Canons of our Church, or the spirit and usages of,
our Prelates, they would have seen at once into its
falsehood. At present this tale is universally scouted,
however once it echoed through public Courts and the .
Houses of Parliament,

71
You will not at least deny, exclaim our opponents,
that other history, which has been detailed in all the
newspapers of late, and has been established in a court
of justice, concerning the injustice and cruelty ofthe
Rev. Mr. O'Brien, Parish Priest of Clonakilty, and
Vicar-General of Bishop Coppinger, who, by this en
gine of excommunication, not only extorted various
syms of money from Donovan; a Catholic baker in the
said town, but also injured him in his trade, in conse
quence of which the latter brought an action against
the former, and recovered from him the sum of fifty
pounds. Here our opponents triumph. Their two hundred
victims of episcopal tyranny are, indeed, reduced to a
solitary instance, and that instance evidently established
to answer their particular purpose of rendering our Pre
lates odious *; yet in this instance they fancy them
selves impregnable, and they boast with the same con
fidence as if they had demonstrated the truth of all they
had before asserted.
But what will these boasters say, when, they find that
the excommunication in question, such as it was, not
only took place without the authority of that worthy,
much-injured Prelate, Dr. Coppinger, but also without
his knowledge, and even in opposition to his general
orders ? Now all this is publicly confessed by Mr.
O'Brien himself in his Justification, dated last October*
l6th, and published in the Star, Coui-ier, and other
newspapers, who adds on this occasion; that he " had
* It was acknowledged at the trial, by Dennis Sullivan, one of
Ponovan's own witnesses, that the latter, "if left tolnmselr, would
" not have brought the action, but that he was excited to it, and
" supported in it." See the Rev. Mr. O'Brien's detailed Just.fica-
tion of himself, dated Oct. 15, and published in the -Cork Met can-
lite Chronicle, the Dublin Evening Post, the Mar, the Courier,
and other prints.

72

" no precedent in the canons or practice ofthe Catholic
" religion for what he did." Accordingly Dr. Cop
pinger has given the strongest proof that it was in his
power to give of his disapprobation of Mr. O'Brien's
conduct, and the other Catholic Bishops have taken
occasion to confirm their prohibition of- the inferior
Clergy's exercising the power of excommunicating, as
I judge from a Latin Address of Dr. Troy to his Clergy,
which has just fallen into my hands.
Again, what will these boasters say, when I prove
that the account of this very excommunication, as pub
lished by them in the Irish and English newspapers,
has been distorted and. misrepresented in all its parts ?
For, 1st, it is absolutely false, that the Rev. Mr.
O'Brien had any personal interest in the collection of
money which he promoted, and which, was the occa
sion of Donovan's action against him, or any other
interest, except that which honour, justice, and
charity to his flock gave him. The facts are, the
parish chapel ofthe populous district of Clonakilty was
in so ruinous a state, that part, of it fell down, by which
accident two persons were killed outright and several
others maimed. The consequence was, that the prin
cipal inhabitants of the town and neighbouring coun
try being assembled for that purpose, resolved that the
chapel should be rebuilt, by means of a general sub
scription ofthe persons amongst them who were in de
cent circumstances. They, at the same time, appointed
a treasurer to receive the subscriptions, and four other
persons to superintend the work. The new chapel was
accordingly begun upon in the year 1800, and in the
course of two years was covered in, at which time it ap
peared there were several heavy debts standing against
the building, for the payment of which the creditors
were exceedingly clamorous, and' which there were no
means of paying but by the subscribers making good

73
their engagements. This, however, several of them,
from party motives rather than from inability, refused
to do.
2dly, It is false that the said Mr. O'Brien, even for
the just and laudable object in question, made ar
bitrary levies and forced loans upon his parishioners, or
that he extorted sum after sum from Donovan, as the
public has been told. The fact is, the rates to be paid
by the several parishioners were settled by tbe aforesaid
principal inhabitants, who divided the whole of them
into three classes, agreeing that persons in the first
class ought to contribute a guinea, those in the second
class three crowns, and those in the last class half a
guinea towards the work, at the same time leaving it to
the choice of every one, if he did not approve of the
class in which his name stood, to place it in either of
the others. And after all, Sir, be pleased to observe
there was an alternative for those persons who did not
cbuse to contribute at all; namely, they had but to fore
go the advantage of the new chapel, and to go to
another at a greater distance ; which alternative, how
ever, only regarded persons who had it in their power
to contribute ; for as to the poor, they were to be ad
mitted absolutely gratis. But it appears that Donovan
would not submit to either part of this alternative, for he
did not contribute one shilling towards the new build
ing, and yet he insisted on availing himself of the bene
fit of it, in defianceof honour and justice, aswell as of
the admonitions and threats of his pastor.
Sdly, It is not true, that, even ,in these circum
stances, Donovan was, strictly speaking, excommuni
cated by his parish priest; but rather, he himself deli
berately chose to incur that censure. In other places of
worship, that are laid out for the accommodation of
subscribers, if a stranger were obstinately to obtrude
himself, the clergyman would direct the beadle to turn
k

74
him out of doors. But Mr. O'Brien did not act in this
manner by Donovan ; he recollected that he was not
possessed of any civil power, and therefore, impelled,
as he thought, by duty, to see justice done to the
creditors of the chapel, and to the generality of his pa
rishioners, he took up the only weapon in his power,
namely, that of spiritual censures, which, however, he
did not employ in the most offensive manner that he
might have done, viz- by declaring those subscribers
actually excommunicated who had not paid theirquota,
he barely pronounced that such persons would incur
that censure in future, if they persisted in their intru
sions into the same. Still he acted wrong, by going
Contrary to the regulations of his Bishop, and by em
ploying censures in a pecuniary concern, even when
his object was notoriously to give every man his own.
In conclusion, the people of Clonakilty, not chusing
to deal with Donovan in the manner they had done
before, for reasons which I think must be obvious to
every one, and by no means because an invalid censure
was passed upon him, which, (though it were binding)
would not prevent his customers from dealing with him,
he was lately (viz. since the tale of the 200 pilgrims
was refuted) excited and supported, as has been proved,
to bring an action for damages against his pastor, by
means of which he recovered from him the sum of 50l.
To this decisiou Mr. O'Brien bowed with due humility,
and left the Court with conscious satisfaction, after
having extorted from the lips of his very enemies an ac
knowledgment that he was, as a man, devoid of private
malice, and of irreproachable conduct ; and as a pastor,
indefatigable in the duties of his station, more particularly
in grounding the poor children of his numerous flock in
the principles of religion and morality.
But, hir, I will not. detain you any longer, but will
now leave it to your calm consideration arid impartial

75
justice, whether, from the history of the Rev. Mr.
O'Brien, or from any thing else that has been alledged
against the Catholic Prelates in Ireland, you will give
your vote for those experiments on the religion of the
people of that great island, which have been proposed.
And also, whether you can seriously wish to see our
Episcopal Hierarchy turned into an Independent Pres
bytery, or a Democratic Anarchy ?
I have the honour to remain, with due respect,
Dear Sir,
Your most faithful and obedient Servant;
JOHN MILNER,

to Sir J. C Hippisley, Bart. M. P.

kS

76

[No. VII.]

An Abstract of the Answers of the six Foreign
Roman Catholic Universities to the Ques
tions proposed to them in the year 1788. — The
Questions were proposed in the Latin Language, and
the Answers were transmitted in the same Language.
The following Extracts are faithfully translated*.

The Three Questions.

I. T TAS the Pope or Cardinals, or any body of men,
XJL or any individual of the Church of Rome, any
civil authority, power, jurisdiction, or pre-eminence
whatsoever within the realm of England ?
II. Can the Pope or Cardinals, or any body of
men, or any individual ofthe Church of Rome, absolve
or dispense with his Majesty's subjects from their oath
of allegiance, upon any pretext whatsoever ?
III. Is there any principle in the tenets of the Ca
tholic Faith by which Catholics are justified in not
keeping faith with heretics, or other persons differing
from them in religious opinions, in any transactions
either of a public or private nature ?

* Vide Appendix to Ctithell's Edition ofthe Debate upon the
Catholic Petition, where the Answers are introduced more at
large.

77

Extracts from the Answers of the Facility of Divinity of
the University of Louvain.
The Faculty of Divinity at Louvain having been re
quested to give her opinion upon the questions above
stated, does it with readiness ; but is struck with asto
nishment that such questions should, at the end ofthe
18th century, be proposed to any learned body by inha
bitants of a kingdom which* glories in the talents and
discernment of its natives.
The Faculty being assembled for the above purpose,
—It is agreed, with the unanimous consent of all voices,
to answer the first and second questions in the nega
tive. The Faculty considers the following propositions to
be beyond all dispute : — l0- That God is the Author
of the Sovereign Power of the State in civil matters. —
£°- That the Sovereign Power of the State is, in civil
matters, subordinate to God alone. — 3°- It follows,
that this Sovereign Power is in no way, not even indi
rectly, subject to or dependent on any other power, tho'
a spiritual power, or one instituted for eternal salva
tion.— '40, It also follows, that no power whatsoever,
whether of Cardinal, Pope, or of the whole Church
assembled in General Council, can deprive this.Sove-
reign Power of the State of its temporal rights, posses
sions, government, jurisdiction, or pre-eminence; nor
subject it to any restraints or modifications. — 59, It
also follows, that no man, nor any assembly of men,
nor even the whole Church assembled iu General
Council, can, on any pretence whatsoever, weaken the
bond of union between the Sovereign and the people ;
still less can they absolve or free the subjects from their
oath of allegiance.— 6"?- Therefore, as in the kingdom
of England the Sovereign Power of the State stands

78
upon the same foundation, and its nature is well known:
The Faculty of Divinity of Louvain has no doubt to ap
ply what has been said before, in its utmost extent, to
the Kingdom and Sovereign Power of England.
Such is the doctrine which the Faculty of Divinity
has derived from the Holy Scriptures, the writings of
the ancients, and the records of the Primitive Church :
— a doctrine that she will maintain with her last
breath, and, with the help of God, impress upon the
minds of her scholars.
The Faculty of Louvain holds that the principles
Iiere laid down by her are not peculiar to her. She
believes that there is no society of learned men, at the
present day in the whole Catholic world, who would
not willingly subscribe them, (according to the common
expression) with both hands.
Proceeding to the third Question, the said Faculty
(though astonished that such a question should be
proposed to her) most positively and unequivocally an
swers, that there is not, and that there never has been,
amongst Catholics, or in the doctrines of the Church of
Rome, any law or principle which makes it lawful for
Catholics to break their faith with heretics or others of
a different persuasion, either in matters of a public or
private nature. The Faculty declares the doctrine of
Catholics to be : — That the divine and natural law,
which makes it a duty to keep faith and promises, is the
same, and that it is neither shaken nor diminished,
whether those, with whom tbe engagement is made, hold
erroneous opinions in matters of religion or not.
The said Faculty strongly protests against the impu
tation, that the Catholic Church has, at any time, held
a contrary doctrine. This, she asserts, is a calumny,
invented and enforced against Catholics by the worst
of men, who, knowing their charges against the latter
to be destitute of truth, endeavour to make falsehood

79
supply it's place, and thereby render them odious to
princes and nations.
In testimony ofthe above, we have caused this instru
ment, authenticated under the Seal of our University, to
be signed by our Beadle.
J. B. DE MAZIERE, S. T. D. and Actual
L. S. Dean.
By Command of my Excellent Lords and Masters,
J. F. VANOVERBEKE, Beadle of the
Sacred Faculty.
Given at Louvain in an Extraordinary
Assembly, Nov. 18, 1788.

Extracts from the Answers, of the Sacred Faculty of
Divinity of the University of Douay, copied from the
Register. Jan. 5, 1789- -
At a Meeting ofthe Faculty of Divinity of the Uni
versity of Douay, the Dean informed the Members
that the Catholics of England wished to have the opi
nions of the Faculty upon. three Questions, the te
nor of which is as follows : — I. Has the Pope, 2tc.
&c. &c. '
These Questions having been privately considered by
each Professor of Divinity, and afterwards having been
attentively discussed, at the public Meeting: — To the
first and second of them the Sacred Faculty answers :
That no power whatsoever was given by God, in civil
or temporal concerns, either to the Pope and Cardinals,

80
or to the Church itself; and, consequently, that Kings
and Sovereigns are not, in temporal concerns, subject,
by the ordinance of God, to any ecclesiastical power
whatsoever ; neither can their subjects by any authority
granted from above to the Pope or the Church, be
freed from their obedience, or' absolved from their oath
of allegiance.
This is the doctrine which the Professors and Doctors
hold and teach in our schools': and this all the candidates
for degrees in divinity maintain in their public Theses.
To the third question the Sacred Faculty answers : 
That there is no principle of the Catholic faith by
which Catholics are justified in not keeping faith with
heretics, who differ^from them in religious opinions. On
the contrary, it is the unanimous doctrine of Catholics,
that the respect due to the name of God, so called to
witness, requires that the oath be inviolably ,-kept to
whomsoever it be pledged, whether Catholic, Heretic,
or Infidel. Decided on the day and in the year above-
named, and signed by order of the Most
Learned Doctors, BACQ, Beadle and Scribe.

Extract from the Answers of the Faculty of Canon
and Civil Law in the University of Douay, to the
same Questions.
Having seen and attentively considered the above-
written Questions, and the Answers of the Sacred Fa
culty of Divinity tp them, the Faculties both of the
Cation and the Civil Law, declare :— That they, without

81
hesitation or doubt, concur in the aforesaid Answers
ofthe 5th instant.
Subscribed, in virtue of our order, by our Scribe,
this 5th of January, 1789- SIMON, Scribe.
[Here follows certificates ofthe Magistrates of Douay,
that the Sieur Bacq is Beadle of the Faculty of
Canon and Civil Law in the said University.]

Extracts from the Answers of the Faculty of Divinity
of Paris to the Queries proposed by the English
Catholics. Answer to the first Question.
Neither " the Pope, nor the Cardinals, nor any body
" of men, nor any other "person of the Church of Rome,
" hath any civil authority, power,jurisdiction, or pre-
" eminence whatsoever in any kingdom, and con-
" sequently none in the kingdom of England, by rea-
" son of any authority, power, jurisdiction, or pre-
" eminence by divine authority, interest in, or any
" other means, belonging to the Pope or the Church
" of Rome."
This doctrine the Sacred Faculty of Divinity of Paris
has always held, and, upon every occasion, main-
-tained, and has rigidly proscribed the contrary doctrine
from her schools.
Our Faculty devotes herself the more religiously to
the defence of this doctrine, because she finds it per
fectly consonant to the word of God and the Tradition
of the Fathers. 1

82
Answer to the second Question.
Neither " the Pope nor Cardinals, nor any body of
" men, nor any persons of the Church of Rome, can,
*' by virtue ofthe keys, absolve or free the subjects of
" the King of England from their oath of allegiance."
— The present and the former question are so intimately
connected, that the answer to the first, immediately
applies to the second. For what greater authority over
a sovereign can be conceived, than the right of absolv
ing and freeing subjects from their oath of allegiance to
him ? With what justice might it be said. That
the kingdom cf Christ is of this world, if the right of
deciding and disposing of temporal kingdoms had been
annexed to its authority, and conferred upon its mi
nisters. Answer to the third Question.
There is no " tenet in the Catholic faith, by which
" Catholics are justified in not keeping faith with heretics,
" or those who differ from them in matters of religion."
The tenet : "That it is lawful to break faith with
" heretics," is so repugnant to common honesty and
the opinions of Catholics, that there is nothing of which
the advocates of the Catholic religion have complained
more heavily than of the malice and calumny of their
adversaries, in imputing this tenet to them. As it is
rejected by Christians of every communion, and is
repugnant to the fundamental principles, both of na
tural and revealed religion, we cannot think it incum
bent on us to enter upon this subject, and we think it
requires no discussion. Given at Paris in the General Assembly
ofthe Sorbonne, held the 1 1th day
before the Calends of March,
1789.
LE CHEVALIER, Dean of
*he Sacred Faculty.

83
By order of the Venerable Dean and the Masters of
the sacred Faculty. HARDY, Scribe.

The Judgment ofthe University of Alcala upon the
three Questions.
It is the opinion of the University, that none of the
persons mentioned, in the first question, either individ
ually or collectively, or in any council assembled,
have any right to civil authority. For the right of
governing kingdoms, in civil concerns, aswell as that
of possession, was instituted before the Catholic Church
was founded by Christ our Lord, the Author of that divine
law by which they are governed, by which law he express
ly declares he leaves untouched, saying : " Mi/ kingdom
" is not of this world." The sense of these words are well
explained by St. Augustine, Tract 115, in Joan. n. 2.
" Listen," says he, " ye Jews and Gentiles; hear this
" all ye nations of the earth : I interfere not with your
" dominion in this world. Be not sejzed with ground-
" less fears, &.C."Answer to the second Question.
Having considered the state of England and its so
vereign, the University in like manner, is of opinion ;
that none of the persons mentioned in the proposition
has a power to absolve the subjects of his Britannic
Majesty from the oath of allegiance which they have
taken or are bound to take to his said Majesty, or to
dispense with its obligations. 12

84

* . _. - Answer to the third Question.
So persuaded is the University that a doctrine, which
would exempt Catholics from keeping faith with here
tics or other persons dissenting from them in religious
matters, so far from being an article of the Catholic
faith, is entirely repugnant to its tenets, that she could
not have believed it possible there should exist any
persons who would dare to impute to Catholics any
thin" so iniquitous, had she not learned from the sacred
scriptures that the same Pharisees, who had heard out-
Lord openly commanding to " Give to C&sar the things
" that are Cesar's," afterwards laid- this very crime to
bis charge : " We have found this man perverting our
" nation, and forbidding to give tribute to Ctzsar."
But the devil, who moved their -tongues to utter such
falsehoods, has never desisted from perverting others in
like manner.
These are the unanimous opinions of this University,
after a mature deliberation, in a full assembly of the
Doctors, this l?th of March, 1789.

A Decision concerning the three Propositions laid before
the University of Va-lladolid by the English Ca
tholics . Answer to the first Question.
The University of ValladoJid acknowledges no civil
authority, power, jurisdiction, or pre-eminence in the
Roman Pontiff, Cardinals, or'even in a General Coun
cil, much less in any individual, either directly or in
directly, within the kingdom of Great Britain, or in
any other kingdom or province, whether Catholic or
not, over which they possess no temporal dominion..

¦85
Answer to the second Question.
Neither the Roman Pontiff, nor the Cardinals, nor
any Council, not even a General Council, can any wray
absolve the subjects- of the king of Great Britain, or
any other persons, whether Catholics or not, over
whom they hold no temporal dominion, from their oath
of allegiance, nor dispense with its obligations.
Answer to the third Question.
Amongst the articles of tbe Catholic faith, there is
none which teaches that Catholics may lawfully break
their faith with heretics, or any other person whomso
ever dissenting from them in matters of religion. The
obligation of keeping faith is grounded on the natural
law, which binds all men equally, without regard to
their religious opinions; and with respect to Catholics,
it 'has still greater force, being confirmed by the pre
cepts of the Catholic religion.
This is the decision of the University of Valladolid,
signed by all ahd each of the Professors, Feb. 17,
1789.

re-

A Determination of the University of Salamanca,
lating to the Concerns of the English Catholics.
All the Doctors and Professors being assembled, and
the questions proposed to them having been for some
time weighed, six members of the University, chosen
out of the Faculty of Divinity and Canon Law, were
appointed to draw up their answers, which are as
follows. Answer to the first Question.
The. same power, and no other, was given by Christ
to Peter and his successors, the Bishops of Rome, and.

86
to the Universal Church, which to himself, as man, had
been given by his Father. As the living Father sent
me, I also send you. Now he invariably denied that he
received any temporal power, by declaring that his king
dom was not of this world ; by flying away when certain
persons wished to make him a king; by his answer to
one who said to him: Master, speak to my brother to
divide the inheritance with me ; and by his commanding
tribute to be paid to Ceesar. Therefore, since the rights
ofthe King of England, whether they persecute or
tolerate the Catholics, arc founded on the same prin
ciples with those of all other sovereign princes under
heaven, we are firmly of opinion, that neither the Ro
man Pontiff, nor the Cardinals, nor any Council, nor
any individual in the Catholic Church, by virtue of his
communion with the Catholic Church, has any civil
authority, power, jurisdiction, or pre-eminence in the
kingdom of Great Britain.
Answer to the second Question.
The solution of this second question, naturally arises
from the principles laid down above. — We, therefore,
without any hesitation, declare that neither the Roman
Pontiff, nor the Cardinals, nor any Council, nor any
individual ofthe Catholic Church, can absolve the sub
jects of his Britannic Majesty from their oath of alle*
giance, or dispense with its obligations.
Answer to the third Question.
The natural rights of men were not intended to be
weakened by the law and doctrine of Christ, but to be
confirmed by them. Now, nothing is more clearly
engraved on the minds of men by the law of nature than
the principle : that all men, however differing from
each other in religious tenets, are, to every intent and
purpose, in a state of equality with respect to negocia-

87
tions, alliances, and compacts. The Spaniards, who in
point of zeal for the Catholic faith, yield to no nation
under heaven, have entered into contracts, both com
mercial and relating to peace, with the English them
selves, and with other Calvinist and Lutheran states ;
and itwould be an atrocious injury and a vile calumny
to assert, that such contracts have been, at any time,
violated under the pretence of religion. Because we
are Catholics, it is not necessary that we should be ac
tuated by a persecuting spirit against those who are
averse to our religion. Meekness and Charity are its
great characteristics, and the examples left us by our
predecessors recommend to us a contrary conduct. —
Therefore amongst the Articles of the Catholic faith
there is none which teaches, that Catholics are not
bound to keep faith with heretics, or with persons of
any other description who dissent from them in matters
of religion. Given in the University of Salamanca, A. D.
1789.
Signed, in the name of the University, by the
Rector and the sLx deputed Members.

88

[ No. VIII. ]
Seasonable Reflections, humbly offered to the Considera.
tion of the Legislature, by some Roman Catholics cf
Ireland.  Written by the Rev. James Usher.
Dublin printed, 1774.
I.
JLN^any country, real punishment operating perpet
ually against problematical guilt, is the highest
solecism in politics. II.
If different religious doctrines are connived at in such
a country, parties will be apt to misrepresent their ad
versaries. The civil principles therefore of the more
obnoxious party should by no means be taken from
men ill-informed, much less from men indisposed to
be well-informed. III.
The legal punishment it'flicted on any set of obnoxious
relig.o-'isns should undoubtedly- receive their justification
from the avowed civil principles and general conduct
of such religionists.; they should receive no justification
from mere local opinions, or temporary doctrines,
chargeable only on those who maintain them.
IV.
If it should appear that the, case of the Irish Papists
has been ptejud_,td, would it not be worth the while
(in the present state of the nation) to give it a rehear
ing, and examine witnesses instead of Accusers ?

89 V.
The Papists of Ireland have been long charged with
civil principles inconsistent with the security of our free
and protestant government. VI.
On the supposition of the truth of that charge, all
the incapacitating laws against the Irish Papists (since
the year 1703) have been founded.
VII.
On the certainty that the charge is well grounded,
it will admit of no doubt but that the legal restraints on
the industry of that set of men ought to be continued in
perpetual operation, because indigent security, is
to be preferred tb a dangerous prosperity.
VIII.
On the falsehood of that charge much evil to this
nation may be grafted. We might substitute opinion
to knowledge, and mistake greatly in the distribution of
rewards and punishments.
IX.
May it not import the Legislature, at the present
time in particular, to enquire whether the proofs
brought to support the above charge against the majo
rity of our manufacturers and farmers be sufficient.
X.
Should the incompetency of such proofs be disco
vered, it would follow that we have long cherished a
hurtful mistake :  that our penal laws have operated,
for seventy years past, without their proper object :
that the general good has been obstructed :r 
that injury to the public has not only been licensed,
but enforced by law, and that individuals have been
exposed to punishments no ways proportionate, in kind
or degree, to their civil demerits. ra

90 XI.
Should Irish Papists be willing to give such a Test
of their civil orthodoxy as would be sufficient for the
security of the civil establishment, it may be presumed
that they cannot be proper objects of legal incapacities,
which restrain them from co-operating with the public
for the public, in such services as dissenters from the
established 'religion can be entrusted with.
XII.
Should Irish Papists be ready to tender an oath of
allegiance to his Majesty King George tbe Third, and
profess religiously that no power on earth can absolve
them from such A duty, some reasons must exist
for rejecting in this country a test found effectual and
profitable in several other protestant states on the conti
nent, particularly in Holland, in Brandenburgh, in
Saxony, and in his Majesty's German dominions.
XIII.
Should Irish Papists, in the most solemn manner, de
clare that it is no tenet of their religion, " That faith
" is not to be kept with heretics ;  that Popes have a
" right to depose kings, or transfer their dominions to
" any invader ;  that the Roman Pontiff can dis-
" pense with perjur}', or authorise the commission of
" any moral or civil evil;" it may be presumed that
the religious renunciation of such odious principles may
qualify the renouncers for a reception into the pale of
bur civil communion. XIV.
These are no light things with men who make religion
(good or bad) a matter of conscience.  Should any
Papist among us, blinded by school opinions, or rather
influenced by doctrines never generally admitted, refuse
giving government a test of fidelity, their recusancy.
would be useful information, and information to be de-

91
pended upon.  It would afford a proof of their ilL-
affection to the civil establishment ; but it would at the
same time afford a proof of their sincerity also, and of
their abhorrence of perjury to serve any cause whatever.
Men of such a cast would be easily detected, and their
error, as subjects, should only affect themselves : it
should by no means affect those who renounce it ; but
the Legislature, in such a case, and in no other,*would
be enabled to direct the penalties on the face of our
statutes to their proper objects, and draw a precise line
between constitutional and anti-constitutional Pa~
pists.  In such a case, our law-givers would be in
possession ofthe mighty advantage of correcting the
mistakes, avoidirig the injustice, and preventing the
destruction ever attendant on indiscriminate punish
ments.
XV.
Good converts to our civil government can be very
easily obtained, and seem to prevent application. 
Converts to the established religion come in slowly 
Their number is not great; and the experience of
seventy years past demonstrates that the rewards and
punishments of law have but a very tardy operation,
when opposed to the rewards and punishments of reli
gion (whether true or false in its fundamentals.) 
The latter frequently rousing our hopes and fears, have
a mighty influence on the human heait, and (excepting
those who come in from ton viction) have been over
looked, chiefly by gentlemen whose inheritances (soon
after the demise of the late King William) have been
exposed to a gavel partition on non-conformity to the
established worship.  The conversion of such men
had a motive too powerful with the rich and luxurious
part of mankind. It arose from the grief of seeing
what they deemed their birth-right transferred to ano
ther ; it arose from the pride of family, from the
111 %

92
greatness of the reward, and particularly from the ri
gour of the penalty, in a fall from all consequence in
one's country, to a prospect of invincible poverty. 
We are not to wonder if such motives had their effects
on some; or that others (while they had the power)
disposed of their inheritances, and flew with the value
into foreign lands, to the diminution of our circulating
specie.
XVI.
In the present distress ofthe public, from the decline
of our manufactures, from absentees abroad, and from
legal restraints on such great numbers at home, this na
tion wants cordials to strengthen, not the emetic of a
new penal law to damp the little vigour we have left.
... i -The Papists of Ireland, through a course of seventy
years, have performed a long quarantine of political
health; a term found sufficient for emancipating the
Jews themselves after an equally long captivity in Ba
bylon. XVII.
Without permanent property to be a pledge of their
good behaviour to government; without any real se
curity for even a monied interest, without feehng the joy
of finding themselves at home in their native country,
they can only express a wish, that their fidelity as
subjects may obtain some reward, and that the hard
ships they endure may be mitigated.— —But whether
the grant of such a mitigation, or the further extension
of new penal laws be most eligible, must be humbly
submitted to the wisdom of the Legislature.

93

[No. IX.]

AT is observed in the preceding pages, that "in a na-
" tional view we have many fair motives to cultivate
" a good understanding with the Roman govern-
" ment, and we are not to suppose, that, because it is
" nearly at its extreme point of depression, there is no
" chance of its again rising to some consideration even
" among temporal states. Whether we consider the
" influence which the Supreme Pontiff must ever main-
" tain over the minds of a large majority of the Roman
" communion, in spirituals, or whether we are to regard
" him as a temporal prince, possessing a fertile terri-
" tory, with convenient ports in the Mediterranean and
" Adriatic Seas, to which, in a political and commercial
" view, it may be of considerable importance to us to
" have access on the most favourable terms, the language
" of temperate discussion, at least, is equally enjoined."
In the spirit of these remarks, it becomes a subject of
interesting contemplation to revert again to the singular
circumstances of that period of the last war, when the
British fleet and many thousands of our troops were sta
tioned in the Mediterranean, and when the constructive
barrier against all political negotiation, or communica
tion with the Roman government, was imperiously borne
down by our necessities.  As it ever will be difficult,
if not frequently impossible, in point of history, to
separate the proceedings of the See of Rome from its
State Government, so no distinction of that description,
will be now made, in adducing a few extracts, from a
very voluminous mass of documents and correspon
dence, illustrating the nature and importance of that in
tercourse.

94

Extract of a Letter from the Cardinal Secretary of
State— intimating that the Pope had directed that all
his Ports should be open to H. M.'s Ships of War, and
that Provisions should be granted, as far as the cir
cumstances of his own States would permit ; — expressing
also his gratitude for the extension of privileges to II.
'Majesty's R. C. Subjects, and communicating a Copy
of a Circular Letter, addressed to the R. C. Prelates
of Ireland, intimating the Pope's deep regrets, as theirf
spiritual Chief , that any of the R. Catholics of that
kingdom should have been seduced from their alle
giance, r* iSi/7' Dated from the Palace ofthe Quirinalt
Aug. 31. 1793.
" La Santita sua, desiderosa di contestare co' fatti li
" sentimenti dell' animo, non solo Jascia aperti li suoi
" Porti al ricovero, e alia stazione de' Legni della FJota
" Inglese per quanto la natura, e l'opportunita. de' Porti
" stessi permettono, ma ben volentieri si prestera ezi-
" ando all' effetto che possano essi provisionarsi di quei
" generi, e prodotti de' qUali potessero abbisognare, e
" nella maniera che le circostanze dello stato medesi-
" mo il consentano.
" Se tutto questo e dovuto ad una ben giusta corris-
" pondenzaper ladifesa accordata, nella Guerra attuale
" da sua Maesta Britanuica alii dominj d'ltalia, non e
" altresl dimentico il santo Padre di quelle beneficenze,
" e favori, che la stessa Maesta" sua, e la .Nazione In-
" glese accordano ai Cattolici dimoranti in quel Regno,
" e per i quali non pu6 non risentire gli stimoli d'una
" signale infima risconoscenza.. Di fatti, pari al rin-
" crescimento sofferto per la notizia giuntagli, non ha
" guari, che in Irlanda si fosse fatta della bassa classe

95
de' Cattolici qualche sediziosa adunanzafu viva e sol-
lecita la sua premura td impegno difar sen tire imme-
diatamente alii medesimi la disappr ova zion e, e indig-
nazione di simil contegno non quella niaggiore efficacia,
che puo rilevarsi dall' annessa copia di lettera scritta
a quel Vescovi dalla Sag. Congiegazione de Propa
ganda Fide, e impieghera ulteriormente tutte le cure,
e le misure le piu adattate, ed opportune, onde Ji Cat
tolici suddetti con una ben regolata condotta sian
sem premeritevoli di quella protezione, che presente-
m elite godono in que' dominj."

Extract of a Circular Letter, written by order of the
late Sovereign Pontiff Pius VI. to the R. C. Prelates
of Ireland y dated Sept. 1, 1793, [referred to in the
preceding Letter of the Cardinal Secretary of State.]
CIRCULARE.
" Dai fogli pubblici Inglesi della scorsa settimana, e
" anche da varie lettere private si ha notizia, che siasi
" fatta qualche adunanza sediziosa dalla bassa classe di
" Cattolici in Irlanda: si riporta anzi il discorso fatto
" in Parlamento su tal proposito da Milord Portarling-
" ton, pieno de querele contro i Cattolici, come che
" abbiano mal corrisposto alle grazie usate con loro
" dalle due Camere del Parlamento. Non dubita il
" Santo Padre, e la Sag. Congiegazione che nel caso
" ancora che sussitano questi fatti non potra l'accusa
" portarsi, se non che contro quei pochi Cattolici, che
" dissubidienti alia voce di loro Pastori si lasciano tras-
" port are dalle massime democratiche, che pur troppo si
" spargono in questi tempi di nemici della religione, e
" del principato. Cid nonostante ha voluto Nostro
" Signore e questa Sag. Congregazione, che io ne fa-

96
" cessi intesaV. S. accioche unitamente agli altri Ves-
" covi disapprovi la condotta di questi mal consigliati
" Cattolici, li riconduca al loro dovere, e li ammonisca
" di guardarsi dalle insidie de' mal intenzionati i quali
" non ad altro mirano se non a sovvertlre le basifonda-
" mentali della Religione, e del Trono."

e-

Extract of a Letter from the Cardinal Secretary of
State, addressed to one of His Majesty's Principal
Secretaries of State, dated Rome, 3 Sept. 1793,*^^fc»r _
 " Vous ne devez pas ignorer combien Sa Sain-
" tele s'est empressee de seconder les instances qu'on
" lui a faites, pour approvisionner la Flotte Angloise,
" des que le dit Mr. H., fit parvenir a la connoissance
" de sa Saintete, combien il etoit essentiel d'avoir re-
" cours h Ses Etats, meme dans la circonstance pres-
" sante ou nous nous trouvions — Ces marques de cor-
" respondanee et d'amitie actuelles, desquelles le Saint
" Pere ne s'eloignera pas dans tout ce qui dependra de
" lui, nous assurent de la part de Sa Majeste, de Votre
" Excellence, et des autres Ministres, la continuation
" des faveurs reciproques pour le bien et l'avantage de
" l'une et 1'autre Cour, et des deux Nations."

Extract of a Letter from the Cardinal Antonelli, Pre
fect of the College of Propaganda Fide, in the name
of that Congregation, addressed, by order ofthe late
Pope Pius VI., to the Roman Catholic Prelates of
Great Britain and Ireland, dated Feb. 7, 1795.
" Itaque,hoc ipsum a vobis, amplissimi praesules, in
" hac temporum injuria faciendum est. Dei siquidem

97
" implorata ope docere populos vestrae fidei commissos,
" quasnam sit expetenda libertas, quse contra servitus
" vitanda. Quod quidem quum in omni imperio reli-
" giose praestandum sit, multo magis a catholicis e'pisco- '
" pis iti isto regno exequi oportet, ut prasteritoruin tem-
" porumcalumniasublaia, ac catholico nomine ab omni
" labe criminis, aut suspects, fidei vindicato hujus sanc-
" tissimse religionis sectatores fidissimos Deo, ac principi
" unusquisque quamvis parum sequus Judex esse faie-
" atur. Quod quidem maximi postulat, suoque quasi
" jure exigit optimi istius Regis Georgii III. beneficen-
" tia, sub cujus miti, ac suavi imperio degentes catholici
" tarn longe abest, ut durum, ac grave jugum perjerre
" cogantur, ut potius a gravioribus, quibus antea
" obstricti erant, conditionibus liberati, privilegiis in-
" structi, militaribus cppiis adscripti, et catholicee ju-
" ventutis instituenda venia impetrata, omni beneficio-
" rum genere cumulati sint. Et sane;, si omnis cathohco-
" rum coetus, qui in florentissimis istius regni provinces
" versatur, luculentiores imposterum fidelitatis, atque
" obedientia? significationes amantissimo regi certatim
" praestare studebit, fausta qua3que, ac meliora a cle-
" mentissimo ejus animo in dies merit6 sibi poterit au-
" gurari. Nee vana profecto res est, ampliora etiam
" deinceps esse adepturos, quibus multo mag^s aucti,
" atque ornati, cajterorum civium conditioni asquipa-
" rentur, ac liberum tandem aliquando, quod maxime
" in votis habendum est, absque ullo honorum, ac fa-
" cultatum detrimento catholicas religionis exercitium
" obire possint 

" Quid ver6 dicam de Gallis profugis, atque extorri-
" bus, quos nunquam satis prsedicanda ejusdem regis
" pietas, ac munificentia omnibus liberalitatis, honoris-
" que significationibus excepit; quum ejus patrocini-
n

98
" um, ac tutelam, ejusque ministrorum, ac totitis An-
" glicas nationis propensam voluntatem ipsemet sanc-
" tissiinus Pontifex expertus sit in iis expediendis ne-
ic gotiis, que egregii Viri D. H., unius ex membris
" senatus fidei, dexteritati, ac prudentiae commissa fue-
" runt, quique testis luculentissimus esse potest, quanta
" idem sanctissimus Pater optimum regem, ac totam
" nationem Britannicam charitate, studio, ac grali ani-
" mi officio compleetatur." L. Card. Antonelli, Profectus,
A. Archiepisc Adanen, Secretarius.

Letter from the Cardinal Secretary of State, announcing
the Pope's present of a Gold Medal to each of the
Officers of the detachment of the \%th, or the Prince
of Wales's Regiment of Light-dragoons, then stationed
at Civita Vecchiat in the Roman States, fa Jt-/f->
Dalle Stanzt del Vaticano, Maggio SO, 1794-
" La speciale considerazione che il Santo Padre ha
" sempre avuta ed avera verso 1'ilLustre, e generosa
" Nazione Inglese, fa, ch' egli non tralasci di darlene
" una prova in occasione della dimora fatta da un Reg-
" gimento della medesima in Civita Vecchia ; e non
" potendo se non lodarsi della regolar plausibile con-
" dotta tenutaci da qaella truppa, ha determinato di
" contestarne la piena sua sodisfazione agli Uffiziali,
" col dono d'una medaglia d'oro per ciascheduno, com-
" presi, il Generale Cav. Stuart, e il Colonello Car.
" Erskine, quantunque assenti. Siccome pei6 tali me-
" daglie uon sono al presente in ordine, ne possono
" aVersi in tempo prima della partenza del Reggimento
" dit Civita Vecchia, sara cura del Santo Padre di farle

99
" tenere quanto prima al riveritissimo M. H., afnnche
" poi si compiaccia egli inviarle a respettivi Uftiziali,
" facendosi presso di loro interprete degli affettuosi
" sentimenti della Santita sua, e del particolare impeg-
" no, che autre di dimostrare in ogni im-ontro, non
" meno alia Nazione intera, che a tutti gl'mdividui di
" essa, la costante sua dilezione. Nel participate per
" tauto il Card, de Zelada, Segretario di Stato, queste
" Pontificie disposizioni al riveritissimo M. H. si offre
" sempre pronto ai di lui comandi, e gli ratifies le
" proteste della propria distinta Stima."

Sir J. H. was requested by the late Pope Pius VI.
to present Gold Medals (each in value about five gui
neas) to Lieutenant-General Sir James Stuart, Bart.
and Sir James St. Clair Erskine, Bart, the Colonel and
Lieutenant-Colonel, and to each of the Officers of the
detachment of the 12th, or Prince of Wales's regiment
of Light-dragoons, accompanied with copies of the
preceding letter; Silver Medals also were presented to
the non-commissioned officers.
His Majesty wa9 afterwards gracious!}' pleased to ac
knowledge this courtesy of his Holiness, by a letter from
one of His principal Secretaries of State to the Cardinal
Secretary of State, accompanied wnh a Gold Snuff Box,
with his Majesty's Portrait, which Sir J. H. was com
missioned to transmit lo the Governor of Civita Vecchia.
In reference to these transactions, the late Lieutenant-
General, the Hon. Sir Chafies Stuart, K. B. (vvhose loss
must ever be regretted as a public calamity), published
the following General Orders, when in the command
of the British troops in Portugal, as an incentive, proba
bly, to the Court of Lisbon, to act with the firmness
which characterised the late unfortunate Pius VI.
n 2

100
General Orders issued by the Hon. Lieutenant-General
Sir Charles Stuart, K. B. Commander in Chief
of his Majesty's Troops in Portugal, dated Lisbon,
March 17, 1798.
"The Commander in Chief is confident that there is
" no occasion to remind the 12th or Prince of Wales's
" Light .Dragoons, of the hospitality and friendship
" they received from the Sovereign Pontiff, when in
" the Roman States; and it must give the officers and
" non-commissioned officers of that regiment infinite
" satisfaction to be in possession of Badges which they
" received in gift from his Holiness on account of their
" good behaviour; — Badges which they are recom-
" mended to wear at the present moment, in token of
" regret for his misfortunes, and the high sense they en-
" iertain of the virtue of a Prince, who, though op-
" pressed with age, and suffering under the severest of
" all human calamities, has the firmness to remain with
" his people."

From Correspondence recognising the liberal Conduct
of the Roman Government, the following Extracts
are selected.

Extract of a Letter from the late Right Honourable. .
Edmund Bukke, dated London, October 3, 1793.$ /< ¦>¦

" With regard to the supply of his Majesty's fleet in
" the Mediterranean, there can be no doubt of its pro-
" priety. Circumstances may happen to render the
" good disposition of the Government of the country
"where you reside of great use to the general cause.

101
" Nobody can be so squeamish as to refuse benefits
" (nothing else will ever be offered by his Holiness)
" because they come from the Pope. He would be an
" Admiral of Wo*nderful theological talents, but of not
" quite such splendid military qualities, who should
" scruple the receipt of those indulgences called Muni-
'' tions de Guerre et de Bouche, from a Prince Prelate
" that believes in purgatory. — I should not think a
" great deal better of a statesman at home, who from a
" disposition to polernick divinity, was so indifferently
" qualified for the conduct of any other kind of warfare.
" But we have no such Admirals and no such Mini-
" sters. — I confess I would, if the matter rested with
" me, enter into much more distinct and avowed poli-
" tical connexions, with the court of Rome than
" hitherto we'rfSve had. If we decline them, the
" bigotry will be on our part, and not on that of his
" Holiness. Some mischief has happened, and much
" good has, I am convinced, been prevented by our
" unnatural alienation. If the present state of the
" world has not taught us better things, our error is
" very much our fault. This good correspondence
" could not begin more auspiciously than in the person
" of the present Sovereign Pontiff, who unites the
" Royal and Sacerdotal characters with advantage and
" lustre to both. He is indeed a prelate, whose dignity
" as a prince takes nothing from his humility as a priest,
" and whose mild condescension as a Chrisiian Bishop,
" far from impairing in him, exalts the awful and
" imposing authority ofthe secular Sovereigu."

a*K

102

Extracts of Letters from Lord Viscount Hood, Com
mander in Chief in the Mediterranean, dated Victory,
Toulon-Road, 1th Oct. \7§3. fo ? f #~~~
" You were very good in anticipating my wants;
" I have now to provide for 10,000 troops, and all the
" inhabitants of Toulon, not one of whom, I believe,
" has tasted animal food for several weeks. — In all my
" letters home, I have expiessed how much I felt
" myself obliged to the Pope for the readiness which
" his Holiness manifested in furnishing me with what-
" ever supplies his dominions afforded."
From the same, dated Victory , Toulon-Road,
Oct. 14, 1793.,^"*
-" As the enemy has cut off the water from alj

" the mills, the inhabitants of Toulon are in great want
" of flour, which leads me to desire, 3rou will cause this
" circumstance to be made known to the Pope, with
" my request, that his Holiness will be pleased to grant
" permission to export, from Civita Vecchia, as much
" flour as can be spared without distressing his own
" subjects."
Extract of a Letter from the Right Honourable Sir
William Hamilton, K. B. Envoy Extraordinary
and Minister Plenipotentiary at the Court of Naples,
dated July 13, 1793. <>2f*

 " To negociate with the Pope was certainly
" weil-judged; I should have been greatly distressed
" if Lord Hood's fleet had come here a month
" ago, for we had not a sufficiency of Corn for our-
" selves." 

103
Extract of a Letter from the Right Hon.SiR Gilbert
Elliott, Bart, (now Lord Minto,) Viceroy of
Corsica, fyc. $7^
"We have sent for the regiment of dragoons from
" Civita Vecchia, but we remain not the less indebted
" to the friendly and seasonable hospitality, by which
" Pius VI. stands again distinguished in Italy, for
" his steady and faithful attachment to Englaud,
" &c. &c. &c.'*

It was before observed, in the preceding pages, that
the grain and flour supplied, in the first instance, to our
seamen and troops, by the Pope, and at a time of ge
neral scarcity, was equal to the consumption of 12,000
men for three months, delivered free of the duties on
transit and all other imposts on the coast, at a price
from 30 to 40 per cent, under that of the market ; and
that further supplies continued to be as liberally granted
during the remainder ofthe period the British fleet and
troops continued in the Mediterranean.
The advantages resulting to his Majesty from these
opportune supplies were afterwards distinctly and offi
cially acknowledged by his Majesty's Cabinet Mi
nisters.

Extract from an Address of the British and Irish
Secular and Regular Roman Catholic Clergy resident
in Rome, dated June 17, t794.<5^Tp
" This important subject, to which you have bu-
" manely devoted so much of your time and labour,
" is, in our humble opinion, highly advantageous in its

104
" consequences to every British subject, whafever may
" be his religious persuasion or local residence ; but
" how mUch more to us, professing fhe Roman Ca-
" tholic Religion, far removed from our families, often
" necessarily obliged, as essential to our religion, to
" offer a constructive violence to laws yet existing ; —
" and deprived, in our present situation, of any repie-
" sentative of our nation, to whom we might resort in
" points of the greatest importance to ourselves and
" to our connexions.
" Such has been the hard fate of us and our pre-
" decessors for more than two centuries; but we now
" entertain pleasing confidence that the moment is not
" far distant, when an open and liberal communication,
" between the two Governments, may be restored,
" so much to the advantage and honour of both
" nations.
" It is, Sir, with infinite satisfaction we have wit-
" nessed many striking events, which seem to have been
" directed by the kind hand of Providence to facilitate
" this great object of our prayers ! — We have seen the
" venerable Pins VI. liberally opening the resources of
" his country for the supply of the British fleet, in a
" moment of great internal scarcity, and the most gener-
" ous acknowledgements made of this service, by his
" Majesty's commanders, to the Court of Rome. — We
" have seen also one of his Majesty's regiments of
" cavalry received with the most distinguished honours,
" and entertained for three months, in the dominions
" of his Holiness, &c. &c.
" We cannot but consider, Sir, this fortunate
" concurrence of Events as happy omens of the con-
" summation of our hopes. And we ha,ve seen with
" gratitude that the nation is sensible of the unmerited
" hardships that have been so long imposed upon a
" faithful body of his Majesty's subjects, as well as the

105
** unjust odium cast by many of our laws on the Go
vernment of the See of Rome 
(i
te " The injustice of thus precipitately drawing a general
" conclusion from the mistaken or criminal conduct of a
" few individuals, and of confounding the political
" conduct of the Court of Rome, at the distance of
" more than two centuries, with the permanent priri-
" ciples, conduct, and discipline of our Church, might
" have been sufficiently proved by a reference to the in-
" variable directions and admonitions of the sacred
" congregation of Propaganda Fide to the Catholics of
" his Majesty's dominions, by which it will appear,
" that a dutiful obedience to the established Govern-
" ment, and a respectful submission to those in au-
" thority, are the great rules of civil conduct that have
" been zealously inculcated.
" We cannot help taking this short retrospect of
" those circumstances, and which form the basis of
" our present hopes, trusting that after the many solid
".concessions of civil rights, and religious indulgence
" to our brethren, which have distinguished the pre-
" sent Parliament, the current of benevolence and
" grace will not be arrested at the point of honour
" which is so dear to us."

Extract of a Letter from the R. C. Prelates, &c. Admi
nistrators of the Funds of the Clergy of the Roman
Communion in Scotland, dated Aberdeen, 26 Aug.
1801. fa JC*#~ '
" We the Administrators of, the funds of the Scotch
" R. Catholic clergy now met, according to custom,
o

106
l.f with our bishops, are happy to be-the organs of the
" whole body of Roman Catholic clergy of Scotland,
" in transmitting to you the sentiments of all. . . .

" Permit us therefore, Sir, to beg that you will add
" to former favours, that of assuring the Noble and
" Illustrious Persons of his Majesty's Ministry, that,
" as we have always considered it one of the first of
" our duties to entertain in ourselves, and to propagate
" among others, sentiments of loyalty to his Majesty's
" sacred person, and of attachment to our happy con-
" stitution ; we shall consider ourselves as henceforth
f bound by a new tie to fulfil the same duty, 8tc. &c.
" Signed, by appointment of the General Meeting,
" JOHN CHISHOLM, Preses.
" REM. MACDONALD, Secy."

Extract of a Letter from the Cardinal Antonelli,
a Member of the Congregation of State, and Prefect
ofthe College of Propaganda Fide, fyc. dated Venice,
at the Eve of the last Conclave assembled for the Elec
tion of a Pope, Nov. 30, 1799. /ffff-tf'
" Le Sacre College, au nombre de 34 Cardinaux,
?' est deja assemble a, Venise, et demain nous entrerons
" en Conclave, et en implorant le secours de l'Esprit
" Divin nous procederons a. I'election de nouveau
" Pontile. II n'y a craindre aucuh.e\nfiu.ence d'au-
f lorite de la part de cette cour* qui^ouverne ce
Vienna.

107
" pays ci, dans 1'affaire ties impor.tante dont il s'agit ;
" nous sommes dans une entiere liberte, et nous en.
" avons de prenves ties convaincaotes. Je ne saurois
" me promettre autant de facilite et de condescendance
" relativement a la phrase que vous avez adoptee : ' Red-
" dite, qutc sunt Casaris Ccesari.' Tl y a, certainement
" plus a craindre qu'a esperer ; le desordre de J'ltalie
" est tel, qu'on ne peut voir que d'une manieie bien
" eloignee encore, lessouverains rendus a. leurs anciens
" etats. Les loix de l'honneur, et de la justice, sont
" obscurcies par celles de la politique, et un souverain
" quoique juste et religieux peut en §tre quelquefois
" seduit. La vertu, la droiture, la justice, l'honneur
" paroissent regner a\ la cour de Londres, assises sur Je
" Trdne de son incomparable souverain. II peut etre le
" salut de l'ltalie, il peut consoler les affliges, il peut
" revetir les depouilles, et comme ses armes, et ses
" victoires brillantes, ont fait trembler les ennemis de
" 1'humauite et renverse leurs projels, de meme Dieu
" paroit lui reserver la gloire de donner une paix, qui
" fasse tout rentier dans sa premiere tranquillite ! . .

" Je vous recommande aussi l'lrelande; ou les bien-
" fails du Roi seront bien dispenses, si par le raoyen
" des Evequeson tache de conserver la Religion parmi
" les Fideles Catholiques, et les instruire des devoirs
" qu'elle enseigne, et dont celui de fobeissance a leur
" souverain doit etre un des premiers."

The conclave terminated on May 14, 1800, in the
elevation ofthe Cardinal Chiaramonte to the pontifical
throne. He was Bishop of Iroola, and highly re-
o 2

108
spected for his private virtues, though not distinguished
by those energetic qualities which conspicuously mark
ed the character of his predecessor. He assumed the
name of Pius VII. in compliment to thelate Pope, who
created him a Cardinal, which will account J'or the
phrase " sua <Creatura" in his letter. The sentiments
therein expressed, with respect to this country, at a
period when he was under no constructive restraint,
may be supposed to have been more congenial with
his feelings, than the more recent acts of his pon
tificate. Extract of a Letter from the reigning Pope, Pius VII./^/i #
" E come il suddetto gloriosissimo Pontefice* (la di
" cui autorita ha grandissimo peso presso di Noi, che
" siamo sua Creatura, e che ci troviamo a lui legati coi
" piu forti e soavi vincoli di venerazione, e di amore, e
" di riconocensa), ha dato tante, e si palesi riprove dell'
" alta stima che aveva della generosa Nazione Inglese,
" e del suo magnanimo e giusto Governo e si e fatto un
" particolar pregio di coltivarne la buona armonia ed
" amicizia, e dimostrargli, in ogni occasione, il piti
" premuroso attaccamento, cosi ancor Noi insistendo
" sopra le sue pedate ci studieremo, per egual maniera,
" di conservare gelosamente questa reciproca buona
" intelligenza ed unione, e~ non permetteremo, per
" quanto le Nostre forze la concederanno, che I'ln-
" ghilterra si accorga, che nella RomanaCatedra siede
" un altro Pontifice diverso da quello, da cui ha pptuto
" si costamente conoscere i riguardi e l'amicizia^ verso
« di lei, &c. &c. &c."
PIUS P. P. VII.
Venezia, in San Giorgio,
10 Maggio, 1800. * Pius Vf.

109
To a more copious summary of documents connected
. with the transactions of that period (viz. 1793, &c.)
«U''f'"' and compiled/vupon a late occasion, the following ob-
' servation's were subjoined.
" Many of these documents bear an immediate rela
tion to some of fhe most important principles of civil
government, that have recently been called into agita
tion. Considered in reference to the subject of them,
they will naturally prompt us to inquire into the grounds
of expedience or justice, on which our intercourse with
the Court of Rome has heretofore been restricted. In
this inquiry, we cannot but observe the narrow and
contracted policy, out of which this restriction arose,
together with the other restrictions of which those times
were so fruitful. By a necessary process of thinking,
we must be compelled to compare the mistaken views
that dictated an inhibition so unqualified, with the en
larged and comprehensive scope of an enlightened go
vernment in an enlightened age.
" The true interests of states in their external rela
tions, are best secured by free and generous communi
cations. Such are the sympathies that draw them to
gether by the force of mutual wants, and mutual neces
sities, that their intercourses will be maintained in the
very teeth of the strongest interdictions framed to pre
vent them. The causes, by which states are led to
commune with each other, are of irresistible operation
in the affairs of mankind. There will be therefore a
perpetual struggle between the restriction and the neces
sities which violate it. This is one of the absurdities
we are driven to in preserving institutions, which the
good sense and civility of the world have virtually re
pealed. " Other governments of the Protestant communion

110
have yielded to those necessities, instead of carrying on
an unnatural struggle against their own interests. They
bave cultivated apolitical intercourse with fhe pontifical
government, on the same principles which regulate their
connexion with other powers. Will Great Britain
alone withhold from Rome a participation of those li
beral maxims of polity she has been, in every other in
stance, the foremost in exhibiting to the world : — Will
she yet persist in receiving the advantages of such a
communication bv a sort of fraud, and a mean evasion
of the letter of statutes, the reason and justice of which
have long since decayed ?
" It is difficult to reconcile this ' froward retention of
' custom," as Lord Bacon somewhere calls it, to any
ordinary rule of civil expediency, and to account for
the perpetuation of laws, conceived in a period of com
parative darkness, down to a period, when those cir
cumstances are merely matter of history. But among
these problems the most perplexing is, the pertinacity
wilh which Great Britain keeps up those ungracious
interdictions, and abandoning that ingenuous plain
course of procedure, without which neither states nor
individuals can be respectable, adheres to inhibitions
which render the advantages of the intercourse scanty
and imperfect, while the inhibitions are themselves weak,
mischievous, and ridiculous. It is scarcely consistent
with the dignity of a great government to receive occa
sional benefits, through private and unaccredited chan
nels, where a regular diplomatic communication is held
to be proscribed, and to enter into clandestine engage
ments, to which the public faith is as irrevocably
pledged as if they were sanctioned by the most punctili
ous formalities of office.
" It may also be gravely asked, whether, in the pre
sent state of the world, an envoy of the first Christian
Bishop, and one of the most ancient of secular sove-

Ill
reigns, ' uniting, (as in the person of the late venerable
Pius VI.) the royal and sacerdotal character with ad
vantage and lustre tp both/ might not be publicly ac
credited to the Court of St. James's with as much offi
cial decorum as the envoys and ministers ofthe piratical
states of Barbary ?
" These are a few of the reflections which naturally
offer themselves from the perusal of a part ofthe pre
ceding correspondence. It must indeed be acknow
ledged, that Rome has not escaped the almost general
degradation of European powers. He that has overrun
the fairest portion ofthe modern world, has atchieved
an easy triumph over the Pontifical States* The mild
virtues of Pius VII. unaccompanied with the energies
of his predecessor, were incompetent to assert, much
less to maintain the prerogatives of the Roman Hie
rarchy, and the rescripts ofthe Vatican appear to be not
unfrequently dictated from the consular throne of the
Thuilleries. But against any pernicious consequences
to be apprehended from this usurpation, who will say
that the laws, to'which we are alluding, interpose any
practical antidotes ? It is the disease of bad laws, to be
worse than useless.
" It must nevertheless be a pleasing retrospect^ to
mark the gradual departure of that theological hatred
which not long ago corrupted our social habitudes, and
public institutions. The nearer we approach the his
tory of our own times, the more we may perceive those
dark tints, that discoloured our civil polity, fading
away. Powers, whose occasional necessities, as well as
permanent interests, demand au intimate connexion,
can reap no adequate advantage from an imperfect and
impeded intercourse. The fruits of such an intercourse
can never be fully derived to either, while even the
dead letter of such statutes remains, although the pe
nalty itself is silent and inactive. Disowning their

112
foundation both in civil expediency and moral justice,
and solicitously preserving as it were their offensive
remains on the legislative records of the country, is
a solecism in reasoning, as much as a problem in
policy."

FINIS.

Omission in Dr. Troy's Letter, Appendix, No. III.
page 21, line 26, after the word "outrageously."
"Although the form ofthe Oath, and the Declaration
of the Queen, are matters of fact, the act for restoring
the Crown's Supremacy (Irish Stat. Anno 2d Eliza
beth) gives all manner of jurisdiction, privileges, and
pre-eminences, in anywise touching or concerning any
spiritual or ecclesiastical jurisdiction, and to visit, re
form, &c. all manner of heresies, which by any spirit-
val authority may lawfully be reformed."

Kcatmg, Brown and Co. Piintcn, 37, Duke-Street, Grofvenor-Square,