¦:>!'.' ¦ , , ;!;!'-;.'lM'-.-H{;t YALE UNIVERSITY LIBRARY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES ON THE SUBJECT OP THE I CONFEDERATION OP THE BRITISH NORTH AMERICAN PROVINCES, 3rib Session, Stt) |)raDlnaal |]avUanimt of (Eaiiatia. ) •¦ 'J /^^Ji__^_^ t' ^'' tJ- ~<^t \.%\JL^.^I I ^ C C). PR11¥TED M^ ORDER OF THE fiECJISlLATCJRE. QUEBEC: HUNTER, ROSE & CO., PARLIAMENTARY PRINTERS. 1865. I IS^T) EX. LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. PROCEEDINGS. Fehruary 3. — Hon. Sir E. P. Tach^ moved that an Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying that a measure be sub mitted to Imperial Parliament, based on certain resolutions, 1. February 9. — Hon. Mr. Sanborn moved an amendment with reference to the Consti tution of the Legislative Council, 124. Fehruary 13. — Hon. Mr. Reesor moved that the debate be adjourned for ten days, 162. Negatived by 37 to 19. Fehruary 14. — Hon. Mr. Letellier DE St. Just moved an amendment to Hon. Mr. Sanborn's amendment, that the debate be adjourned until certain infor mation be laid before the House, 189. Negatived by 38 to 20. Fehruary 16. — House divided on Hon. Mr. Sanborn's amendment, 215. Negatived by 42 to 18. Fehruary 17. — Hon. Mr. CuRRiE moved in amendment to the main motion, that the House should not assent to the measure without a further manifestation of the public will than ha.s yet been declared, 269. House divided on said amendment, 316. Negatived by 31 to 19. Fehruary 20. — Hon. Mr. Aikins moved an amendment with reference to the Consti tution of the Legislative Council, 317. A question of order being raised, the Hon. the Speaker ruled the said amend ment out of order, 318. Hon. Mr. Reesor moved in amendment, that the transmission of the Address should be delayed, until the resolutions should be approved by a direct vote of the electors of the province, 327. A question of order being raised, the Speaker ruled the said amendment to be in order, 328. House divided on said amendment, 333. Negatived by 36 to 19. Hou.se divided on main motion, 346. Carried by 45 to 1 5. Committee appointed to draft an Address. Draft Address reported, agreed to, and ordered to be engrossed. Ordered that an Address be presented to the Governor General by the whole House, riqucsting him to transmit said Address to Her Majesty, 346. Fehruary 23. — The House waited on His Excellency with their Address to Her Majesty. His Excellency's reply, 421. %* The names of the Electoral Divisions represented by elected members are given in Italics. Life members are distinguished by [L] following the name. Aikins, Hon. James C. [Eome'], 154-159, 208, 217, 316-317. Alexander, Hon. George [Gore'], 80-82, 207-208. Allan, Hon. George W. lYark^, 115- 118. Armand, Hon. Joseph F. [Almal, 209- 210. Belleau, Hon. Sir N. F. [Ll 180-186, 189, 317. Bennett, Hoii.Thomas [Eastern],206-207 . Plair, Hon. A. J. Fergusson IBrockl, 11, 300. Blake, Hon. Oliver [TAames], 325-826. BoSBt, Hon. J. N. [De La Durantaye'], 208. Boulton, Hon. George S. [Ll. 152-154, 156. BUREAU, Hon. J. 0. [De Lorimier'], 189- 193, 309-310, 827, 345. Campbell, Hon. A., Commissioner of Crown Landa ICataraqui], 20-24, 45, 156, 159, 160, 161, 175, 178, 202, 223, 272, 281, 290-298, 803, 840, 341, 842, 512. Christie, Hon. David tErie'], 212-222, 224, 277, 279. CuRElE, Hon. James G. [I^iagara'], 45-53, IV 208-209, 210-212, 218, 269-284, 340, 341, 342, 512. De Beaujeu, Hon. George S. [L], 205, 322-324. Dickson, Hon. Walter H. [L], 284-290, 327. Ferrier, Hod. James [L], 193-198, 233, 276. Flint, Hon. Billa [Trenq, 318-322. Guevremont, Hod. J. B. [Satirel], 313. Hamilton, lion. John [Inkermanl, 324- 325. Letellier de St. Just, Hon. L. [Grand- ville-], 12, 13, 186-189. Macpherson, Hon. David L. [Scmqeen], 125, 149-152, 200, 201, 204, 283. McCrea, Hon. "Walter [ Western], 16 i- 17.S, 277, 279. McMaster, Hon. William [Midland], 229-231. -' Moore, Hon. Philip H. rLI, 83, 160, 162, 225-229. L J > , , Olivier, Hod. L. A. [Be Lanaudihre], 173-180, 189, 310-316. Price, Hon. David E. [Laurentides], 338- 339. Read, Hon. Robert [Quinte], 326-327. Reesor, Hon. David [King's], 158, 161 162, 163-167, 327, 328-333, 339-340. ' Ross, Hon. John [L], 71-80, 160, 213 270, 271, 280, 300-301, 327. Ryan, Hon. Thomas [Victoria], 333-338 340. Sanborn, Hon. John S. [Wellington], 118 -125, 222-225, 244-245. Seymour, Hon. Benjamin [Ll, 199-206 298-300. Simpson, Hon. John [Queen's], 160, 23l- 234. Skead, Hon. JiiMES [Rideau], 242-244. Speaker, The — Hon. U. J. Tessier [Gulf], 208, 317, 318, 328, 42J. Tachis, Hon. Col. Sir E. P., Receiver Gene ral and Minister of Militia [Ll, 1-11 76, 83, 175, 177, 210, 211, 2.34-242! 333, 342-346. Vidal, Hon. A. [St. CTaiV], 82-83, 301- 309, 346. J' ) - LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY, proceedings. Fehruary d,.—Eoa. Mi J. Gen. Macdonald moved that an Addre.ss be presented to Her Majesty, prayiog ihat a measure be submitted to Imperial Parliament, based on certain resolutions, IS Hon Mr. HoLTON objected that the motion was not in order, inasmuch as the Address should bo founded oo Resolutions origin ated in Committee ofthe Whole, 18. The Speaker ruled that the motion was in order, 19. March 7.-Hon. Atty. Gen. Macdonald moved the previous question, 703. Hon Alty. Gen. Cartier having moved the adjournment of the debate till the first sitting of the House, to-morrow, after rout,nc_ business, Hon. Mr. Holton nioved in amendment that the debate be adjourned till tbe 13th instant, and that an Address be presented to the Governor General praying him to cause to be laid before the House, in the meantime, various information relating to the subjects em braced in the resolutions, 767. Objection being taken, the Speaker ruled the amendment out or order, 768 The speaker's decision appealed from, 768 Sustained on a division of 59 to 20. Hon. Mr. DoRioN moved in araendment that the debate be aajourned for oae mjnth or until such time as the people of the Province should have au opportunity of constitutionally pvonounciag their opinion, 769 Objection being taken, the Speaker ruled the amendment out of order, 770. i,,^^?-A^''-*^'*-^^^^^'S"i°'ion agreed to, 77o! March lO.-Objection having been taken by Hon. Mr. Holton, the Speaker ruled that ^ the motion for the « previous ciues- tion was in order, 893. Tlie House divided on the motion for the "previous question," 962. Agreed to by il to 39 Sie Son'% .7"^ n °° '^'^ "^'^ »^°tion, of the Hon. Atty. Gen. Macdonald 96'' Agreed to by 91 to 33. '"'^^^> «&.. March 13. — Hon AUv (^^ n moved that a Goni^itt^ '^' '^^^^^o^^^^d draft an addi'ssfoundeSnt^; "^"^'T^ '" 962. Hon J TT°pf°" ^'le resolutions, amendment an iddres?t??r T"' '" General, for an appeal to fl «°T°0'- fore the resolution? should 5' "^'1^^°- ^'- to the Imneriil i>..r ^^ submitted action, 96? Obje trb'-''^^ '''''' ^^^^ wojection being taken, the Speaker ruled the amendmdnt to be in order, 963. House divided on Mr. Ca meron's amendment, 1020. Negatived by 84 to 35. Hon. Mr. Holton moved an amendment, that the measure should not go into operation, until approved by the Parliament of Canada, after the next gen eral election, 1021. House divided on said amendment, 1025. Negatived by 79 to 81. Hon. Joii.s Sandfield Mac donald moved an amendment with refer ence to the subject of Education in Upper Canada, 1025. House divided on said amendment, 1026. Negatived by 95 to 8. Mr. BouRASSA moved an amendment that Roman Catholic minority of Upper Canada be placed on same footing as Protestant minority of Lower Canada, 1026. House divided on said amendment, 1027. Nega tived by 85 to 20. Main motion agreed to on a division and Committee appointed, 1026. Draft Address, reporte.!, 1027. Agreed to and ordered to be engrossed, 1032. Ordered that an Address be pre sented to the Governor General by tho whole House, requesting him to transmit said Address to Her Majesty, 1032. March 14. — The House waited on His E.^ccellency with their Address to Her Majesty. His Excellency's reply, 1032. Alleyn, Hon. Chas. [Quehec West], 641, 642, 669-673. Archambeault, Mr. Louis [L'Assomp- tion], 544-545. Beaubien, Dr. J. 0. [Montmagny], 351, 550-551. Bellerose, Mr. J. H. [Laval], 476-482. Biggar, Mr. James L. [East Northumber land], 882-884. Blanchet, Dr. Joseph G. \Leou], 54.5- 550. B0URAS.SA, Mr. Francois [St. Johns], 1020. Bowman. Mr. T. E. [North Waterloo], 803- .t05. /Brown, Qod. George, President of the Council [South 0.x:ford], 14; 84-115, 412, 450, 474, 476, 663,661, 709-710, 711, 739, 752, 753, 754, 757, 758, 989- 995. 15URWELL, Mr. L. [East Elgin], 447-448. Cameron, Hon. J. H. [Pee/!], 14, 662, 710, 962-975,995, 1006. Cameron, Mr. M. C. [North Ontario], 448- 463, 645, C81, 716-719, 714-747, 770, 975-986. , Caktier, Hon. G. E., Attorney General East [Montreal East], 19, 53-62, 407, 408, 411,412, 452,500, 540, 571,576,642, 092, 713-715, 731, 770, 841. 932, 945, 1022. Cartwright, Mr. R. J. [Lennox and Add ington], 820-825. Cauceon, Hou, J. [Montmorency], 15, 371, 39.3, 554-584, 695-702, 778. Chambers, Mr, F. H. [ Brockville], TiQ~ 775 Cockburn, Hon. James, Solicitor General West [West Northumberland], 810. CORNELLIER dit Grandchamp, Mr. Hip- POLYTE [Joliette], 349. Cowan, Mr. James [South Waterloo], 742, 957-958. Denis, Mr. Paul [Dcauhamois], 644, 871- 880, 986. DeNiverville, Mr. G. B. [Three Rivers], 947-952. DoRiON, Hon. A. A. [Hochdaga^, 15, 245-269, 378, 379 570, 571, 584, 654- 657, 664, 682-695, 731-731, 767, 769, 944-947, 986, 1021. DoRiON, Mr. J. B. E. [Drummond and Arihahas&a], 856-871, 929, 987. DuFRESNE, Mr. Joseph [Mfontcalm], 55i, 608, 922-931, 1017. DuNKiN, Mr. Christopher, [Urome], 19, 482-512, 512-544. Evanturel, Hon. FiiANgois, [Quebec County], 569, 576, 711-713, 913. FsaGUSON, Mr. Thos. R, [South Simcoe], 958-981, 1013-1015. FoRTiER, Blr. MoiSE [Yamaska.], 941-943. Gagnon, Mr. A. [Charlevoix], 952-953. -Galt, Hon. A. T., Minister of Finance, [Sherhrooke], 19, 62-71, 661, 662, 947. Geoffrion, Mr. FiLix [Verchhres], 389, 390, 580, 775-783. Gibbs, Mr. Thomas N. [South Ontario], 668, 810-814, 987-988. HaRWOOB, Mr. A. CHARTlfcR DE LOTBIN- mRi,[Vaudreuil], 825-841. Haultai.v, Col. Fuederick W. [Peter borough], 627-648. Holton, Hon. L. H. [Chateauguai/], 14, 17, 18, 147-148, 394, 408, 411, 419, 440, 475, 660, 661, 664, 704-709, 725, 730- 731,767,768,893, 937-911, 994, 996- 997, 1008, 1021. Howland, Hon. W. P. [West York], 766. Huntington, Hon. Lucius S. [Shefford], 953-957, 1015-1017. VI Jackson, Mr. George [Grey], 884-889, 988, JoLY, Mr. II. G. [Lothinih-e], 346-362, 384, 392, 393, 679, 998-1000. Jones, Mr. D. F. [South Leeds], 814-820. Laframboise, Hon. Mauhice, [Bagot], 742-744, 841-856. Langevin, Hon. H. L., Solicitor General East [Dorchester], 362-392, 579, 691, 781. Macdonald, Hon. J. A., Attorney General West, [Kingston], 13, 14, 16, 18, 25-45, 048-650, 658, 665, 703, 705, 725-730, 944, 962,1000-1007, 1027, 1031. Macdonald, Mr. John, [Toronto Wesf^, 760-765, 766. Macdonald, Hon. J. Sandfifld [Corn- loall], 13, 251, 420, 421, 642, 650-654, 662, 663, 666, 667, 720-725, 734-742, 1008-1013, 1025. MacFarlane, Mr. Robert [Perth], 1022- 1024. Mackenzie, Mr. A.,[Lambton], 421-134, 738, 767, 1009, 1017-1018, 1025. Mackenzie, Mr. Hope ¥. [North Oxford], 673-681, 1009. BIagill, Mr. Chas. [Ha7nilton], 997-998. McConkey, Mr. T. D. [North Simcoe], 889-893. McDougall, Hon. William, Provincial Secretary [North Lanar-k], 492, 538, 719-720, 985. McGeb, Hon. T. D'Arcy, Minister of Agri culture [Montreal West], 125-146, 643 053, 669. McGiVERiN, Mr. W. [Lincoln], 464-475. McKellar, Mr. Archibald [Kent], 765- _^766. ^ -' Morris, Mr. Alexander, [South Lanark!. 431-446. -•' O'Halloran, Mr. James [Missisquoi], 792-799. Paquet, Dr. A. H. [Berthier], 789-792. Parker, Dr. T. S. [North Wellington], 668, 936-937, 1018-1020. Perrault, Mr. Joseph F. [Richelieu], 559, 585-626, 926. PouLiOT, Mr. J, B. [Temiscouata], 880- 882. Powell, Mr. W. F. [Carle-on], 715-716. Rankin, Col. Arthur [Essex], 667, 912- 922. RfcMiLLARD, Mr. Edouard [Bellechasse], 78.3-789. Rose, Hon. John [Montreal Centre], 394- 419. Ross, Mr. John J. [Champlain], 882. Ross, Blr. John S. [Dundas], 799-803. Rymal, Mr. Joseph [South Wentworth], 932-936, 993, 1020. Scatcherd, Mr. T[10S [West Middlesex], 747-760. Scoble, Mr. John [ West Elgin:], 852, 906- 912. Shanly, Mr. Walter [South Grenville] 899-906. Smith, Mr. Alexander M. [Toronto East], 897-899 Speaker, Tho Hon, Lewis Wallbridge [South Hastings], 19, 559, 664, 703, 768, 770, 893, 963, 1032. Stirton, UT.'DjLVJT>[South Wellington], 738. Taschere.au, Mr. Henri E. [Beauce],S9B- 897. Wallbridge, Mr. T. C. [North flastinqs], 419, 657-660, 672. Walsh, Mr. Aquila [Norfolk], 805-810. Webb, Mr. William H. [Richmond and Wolfe], 931-932. Vll THE LEGISLATURE OF CANADA, 3rd Session, 8th Parliament, 1865. GOVERNOR GENERAL. His Excellency The Right Honorable Charles Stanley, Viscount Monck, Baron Monck of Ballytrammon, in the County of Wexford, Governor General of British North America, and Captain General and Governor in Chief in and over ihe Provinces of Canada, Nova Scotia, New Brunsioick, and the Island of Prince Edward, and Vice Admiral ofthe same, &c., &c., &c. THB MINISTRY. ^Hon. Sir Etienne Pascal TachiS, Receiver General, Minister of Militia, and Premier. ^Hon. John Alexander Macdonald, Attorney General West. vHon. George Etienne Cartier, Attorney General East. ^ Hon. Alexander Tillooh Galt, Minister of Finance. Hon. Alexander Campbell, Commissioner of Crown Lands. "•Hon. Thomas D'Arcy MoGee, Minister of Agriculture and Statistics. Hon. Jean Charles Chapais, Commissioner of Public Works. ^Hon. George Brown, President Executive Council. Hon. William McDougall, Provincial Secretary. Hon. William Pearce Howland, Postmaster General. Hon. Hector Louis Langevin, Solicitor General East. Hon. James Cockburn, Solicitor General West. LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. The Honorable Ulrio J. Tessier, Speaker. LIFE members. Residences. Kingston . . . .Hon. Philipsburg . " London, C.W " Brockville ... " Toronto " Montreal " Perth " Cobourg " Montmagny.. " Montreal " Montreal '< Electoral Divisions, Alma Bathurst Bedford Brock Burlington Cataraqui De La Durcmtaye De LanaudUre. . . Names of Members. John Hamilton. Philip H. Moore. George J. Goodhue. James Morris. James Gordon. James Ferrier. Roderick Matheaon. George S. Boulton. Sir Etienne P. Tach4. James Leslie. Frederick A. Queanel. ELECTED Names of Members. Hon. Joseph P, Armand. " James Shaw. " A. B. Poster. '' A. J. Fergusson Blair. " Harcourt Burland Bull. " Alexander Campbell. " Joseph Noel Boss^. " L. A. Olivier. Eesidences, Cotea-udu Lac Toronto Ham,Uton . . . Quebec Quebec Montreal . . . . Port Hope . . . Sorel Cobourg Niagara Names of Members. Hon. George Saveuge de Beaujeu. " John Ross. " Samuel Mills. " Louis Panet. " Sir Narcisse P. Belleau. " Charles Wilson. " Benjamin Seymour. " David M. Armstrong. " Ebenezer Perry. " Walter H. Dickson. MEMBERS. Electoral Divisions. Names of Members. De Larmier Hon. J. O. Bureau. De Le VallHre. De Salaberry . Eastern Erie Gore Grandville .... Gulf J.-Bte. G. ProuL-c. , Louis R^naud. Thomas Bennett. David Christie. George Alexander. Luc Letellier de St. Just. Ulric Joseph Tessier. vm LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. — Concluded. ELECTED MEMBERS. Electoral Divisions. Home Hon Inkerman " Kennebec " King's " La Salle ..... " Laurentides " Lauzon " Malahide " Midland " Mille-Isles " Montarville "¦ Newcastle " Niagara " Queen's " Quinti " Kepentigny " Names of Members. James C. Aikins. John Hamilton. Charles Cormier. David Reesor. Antoine J. Duohesnay. David Edward Price. Elz^arH. J. Duchesnay B. Leonard. A¥m. McMaster. L^audre Dumouchel. Louis Laooste. Asa A. Burnham. James George Currie. John Simpson. Robert Read. P. Urgel Archambault. Electoral Diviaions. Rideau Hon. Rigaud " Rougemont " Saugeen " Saurel " Shawenegan " Stadacona " St. Clair " St. Lawrence " Tecumseth " Thames " Trent " Victoria " Wellington " Western " York " Names of Members. James Skead. East. Prud'homme, Jr. William Henry Chaffers David L. Macpherson. Jean Bte. Guivremont. Charles Malhiot. Jean Elie Gingras. Alexander Vidal. George Crawford. Donald McDonald. Oliver Blake. Billa Flint. Thomas Ryan. John Sewell Sanborn. Walter McCrea. George William Allan. LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY. The Honorable Lewis Wallbridge, Speaker. MEMBERS. Constituencies. Names of Members. Argenteuil Hon. John J. C.Abbott. jicigot Hon. M. Laframboise. Beauce Henri E. Taschereau. Beauharnois Paul Denis. Bellechasse - Edouard R^millard. Berthier Anselme H. Paquet. Bonaventure Theodore Robitaille. Brant (East Riding). John Young Bown. Brant { West Riding). . .Edmund Burke Wood. Brockville {Town.) Fitzwm. H. Chambers. B-fome Christopher Dunkin. Cirleton William Fred. Powell. „, , , ( Charles Boucher de Chambly | Bouoherville. Champlain John Jones Ross. Charlevoix . . ., Adolphe Gagnon. Chateauguay Hon. Luther H. Holton. Chicoutimi ^- SaguenayVievre A. Tiemblay. Compton John Henry Pope. Cornwall {Town) Hon. J. S. Macdonald. Dorchester Hon. H. L. Lamgevin. Drum'd S; Artkahaska. Jean Bte. EricDorion. Dundas John Sylvester Ross Durham {East Biding)John hhuter Smith. Durham { West jRidtng')Henry Munro. Elgin (East JJi'din,!/.). .Leonidas Burwell. Elgin {West Riding.). .John Scoble. Essex Arthur Rankin. Frontenac .William Ferguson. Gaspi John Le Boutillier. Glengarry Donald A. Macdonald. Ore-nviUe'{Soiiih Riding)^ alter Shanly. Grey George Jackson. Haldimand David Thompson. Conslituonoies. Names of Membera. Halton John White. Hamilton (City.) Charles Magill. Hastings {North Riding)Thomas. C. Wallbridge. Hastings [South Riding)E.oa. Lewis Wallbridge. Hochelaga Hon. Antoine A.Dorion. Huntingdon Robert B. Somerville. Huron and Bruce James Dickson. Iberville Alexandre Dufresne. Jacques Cartier Guillaume G, Gaucher. Joliette Hip.C. dit Grandchamp. Kamouraska Hon. Jean C. Chapais. Kent Archibald McKellar. Kingston Hon. J. A. Macdonald, Lambton Alexander Mackenzie. Lanark (North Riding)B.oa. Wm. McDougall. Lanark {South Riding. )A.\exa,i\der Morris. Laprairie Alfred Pinsonneault. L'Assompiion Louis Archambeault, Laval Joseph H. Bellerose. Leeds and Greenville ) t-, . t {North Riding.). . . \ ^fancis Jones. Leeds {South Riding ) . .David Ford Jones. Lennox and Addington. Rlc'ha.vd J. Cartwright. ^^''«s Jos. Goderic Blanchet. ^incoln William McGiveriu. L Islet. . Lo^jg B. Qa^^Q„ London {City.) Hon. John Carlinrr. Lotbiniere Henri Gustave JoTy. Maskinonge ^olse Houde. Megantic Oeorge Irvine. Middlesex {E Riding.)CrowMWMion. Mddlese.v{W. Ri ding. )Thomas Scatcherd. ^*ff 9"°* James O'Halloran. Montcalm Joseph Dufresne IX LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY— Concluded. Constituenclos. Names of Membera. Montmagny Jos. Octave Beaubien. Montmorency Hon. Joseph Cauchon. Montreal (City) Cewire. Hon. John Rose. " " East . .Hon. Geo. E. Cartier. " West . .Hon. T. DArcy McGee. Napierville S. Coupal dit La Reine. Niagara {Town.) Angus Morrison. Nicolet Joseph Gaudet Norfolk Aqni'la Walsh. Northumberland [E. ) ¦, t t>- Ridvng.) , . . j J™«^ ^y°" ^^Sgar. Northumberland {W.)xi t n m. Riding.) ...\ ^°"- ^^'^'''^ Cockburn. Ontario {North Riding) . Matthew C. Cameron. Ontario (South Riding).Thoa. Nicholson Gibbs. Ottawa (City) Joseph Merrill Currier. Ottawa (County) Alonzo Wright. Oxford (North Riding). B.oTpe P, McKenzie. Oxford {South Riding). Kon. George Brown. Peel Hon. John H. Cameron. Perth Robert Macfaiiane. Peterborough Fred. Wm. Haultain. Pontiac John Poupore, Portneuf Jean Docile Brousseau. Prescott Thomas Higginson. Prince Edward .Walter Ross. Quebec {City) East Pierre Gabriel Huot. " " Centre . .Hon. I. Thibaudeau. " West Hon. Charles Alleyn. Quebec (County) Hon. F. Evanturel. Renfrew Robert Maclntyre. Richmond and Wolfe. . .William Hoste Webb Richelieu Joseph P. Perrault. Rimouski George Sylvain. Constituencies. Names of Members. Rouville Joseph N. Ponlin. Russell Robert Bell. St. Hyacinthe R6mi Raymond. St. Johns Francois Bourassa. St. Maurice Charles Lajoie. Sheffbrd Hon. L. S. Huntington. Sherhrooke (Town) . . . .Hon Alex. T. Galt. Simcoe (North Riding) .Thomas D. McConkey, Simcoe (South iii<^mg').ThomasR. Ferguson. Soulanges William Duckett. Stanstead Albert Knight. Stormont Samuel Ault. Temiscouata Jean Baptiste Pouliot. Terrebonne Louis Labreche-Viger. Three Rivers {City). . . .Chas. B. De Niverville. Toronto (City) East. . . .Alex. Mortimer Smith. " " West John Macdonald. Two Mountains Jean Baptiste Daoust, Vaudreuil \ ^f °i°? . , ^tartier de \ Lotbimere Harwood. Vercheres. . . .- F^lix Geoffrion. Victoria James Wicks Dunsford Waterloo (TV. Riding). .Isaac Erb Bowman. Waterloo (S. Riding).. James Cowan. Welland Thomas Clark Street. Wellington (N. Riding)T'homaa S. Parker. Wellington (S. Riding), David Stirton. Wentworth (N. iJiiimg-). William Notman. Wentworth (S. Riding). Joseph Rymal. Yamaska Mo'ise Fortier. York (East Riding) . . .Amos Wright. York (North Riding). . .James Pearson Wells. York ( West Riding)... .Hon. Wm. P. Howland. PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES on the SUBJECT OF THE CONFEDERATION OF THE BRITISH NORTH AMERICAN PROVINCES. Third Session, Eighth Provincial Parliament oj Canada, in the Twenty -eighth year of the Reign of Her Majesty Queen Victoria. LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Friday, February 3, 1865. Hon. Sir E. P. TACHfi moved, " That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying that She may be graciously pleased to cause a measure to be submitted to the Imperial Parliament for the purpose of uniting the Colonies of Canada, Nova Scotia, Nev? Brunswick, Newfoundland, and Prince Edward Island, in one Govemment, with pro visions based on the following Resolutions, which were adopted at a Conference of Dele gates from the said Colonies, held at the city of Quebec, on the 10th of October, 1864 :" I. The best interests and present and future prosperity of British North America will be pro moted by a Federal Union under the Crown of Great Britain, provided such Union can be effect ed on principles just to the several Provinces. 2. In the Federation of the British North American Provinces, the system of Government best adapted under existing circumstances to pro tect the diversified interest of the several Pro vinces, and secure efficiency, harmony and per manency in the working of the Union, would be a General Government, charged with matters of common interest to the whole country; and Local Governments for each of the Canadas, and for the Provinces of Nova Scotia, New Bruns wick and Prince Edward Island, charged with the control of local matters in their respective sec tions. Provision being made for the admission into the Union, on equitable terms, of Newfound land, the North- West Territory, British Columbia and Vancouver. 3. In framing a Constitution for the General Government, the Conference, with a view to the perpetuation of our connection with the Mother 2 Country, and the promotion of the best interests of the people of these Provinces, desire to follow the model of the British Constitution, so far as our circumstances will permit. 4. The Executive Authority or Government shall be vested in the Sovereign of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, aud be administered according to the well-understood principles of the British Constitution, by the Sovereign personally, or by the Representative of the Sovereign duly authorized. 5. The Sovereign or Representative of the Sovereign shall be Commander-in-Chief of the Land and Naval Militia Forces. 6. There shall be a General Legislature or Parliament for the Federated Provinces, com posed of a Legislative Council and a House of Commons. 7. For the purpose of forming the Legislative Council, the Federated Provinces shall be con sidered as consisting of three divisions: 1st, Upper Canada ; 2nd, Lower Canada ; 3rd, Nova Scotia, New Brunswick and Prince Edward Island; each division with an equal representa tion in the Legislative Council. 8. Upper Canada shall be represented in the Legislative Council by 24 Members, Lower Cana da by 24 Members, and the three Maritime Pro vinces by 24 Members, of whieh Nova Scotia shall have 10, New Brunswick 10, and Prince Edward Island 4 Members. 9. The Colony of Newfoundland shall be enti tled to enter the proposed Union, with a repre sentation in the Legislative Council of 4 Members. 10. The North-West Territory, British Colum bia and Vancouver shall be admitted into the Union on such terms aud conditions as the Par liament of the Federated Provinces shall deem equitable, and as shall receive the assent of Her Majesty ; and in the case of the Province of Bri tish Columbia or Vancouver, as shall be agreed to by the Legislature of such Province. IL The Members of the Legislative Council shall be appointed by the Crown under the Great Seal of the General Government, and shall hold office during life : if any Legislative Councillor shall, for two consecutive sessions of Parliament, fail to give his attendance in the said Council, his seat shall thereby become vacant. 12. The Members of the Legislative Council shall be British subjects by birth or naturaliza tion, of the fall age of thirty years, shall possess a continuous real property qualification of four thousand dollars over and above all incumbrances, and shall be aud continue worth that sum over and above their debts and liabilities, but in the case of Newfoundland and Prince Edward Island, the property may be either real or personal. LS. If any question shall arise as to the quali fication of a Legislative Councillor, the same shall be determined by the Council. 14. The first selection of the Members of the Legislative Council shall be made, e.xcept as re gards Prince Edward Island, from the Legislative Councils of ths various Provinces so far as a sufficient number be found qualified and willing to serve ; such Members shall be appointed by the Crown at the recommendation of the General B.'cecutive Government, upou the nomination of the respective Local Governments, and in such nomination due regard shall be had to the claims of the Members of the Legislative Council of the opposition in each Province, so that all political parties may, asneaily as possible, be fairly repre sented. 15. The Speaker of the Legislative Council (unless otherwise provided by Parliament), shall be appointed by the Crown from among the Mem bers of the Legislative Council, and sh?ll hold office during pleasure, and shall only be entitled to i\ casting vote on an equality of votes. 16. Each of the twenty-four Legislative Coun cillors ref resenting Lower Canada in the Legis lative Council of the General Legislature shall be appointed to represent one of the twenty-four Electoral Livisions mentioned in Schedule A of Chapter first of the Consolidated Statutes of Can ada, and such CounciUor shall reside or possess his qualification in the Division he is appointed to represent. 17. The basis of Representation in the House of Commons shall be Population, as determined by the Official Census every ten years ; and the number of Members at first shall be 1 94, distrib- ted as follows : Upper Canada 82 Lower Canada 65 Nova Scotia 19 New Brunswick 15 Newfoundland 8 Prince Edward Island 5 18. Until the Official Census of 1871 has been made up, there shall be no change iu the number of Representatives from the several sections. 19. Immediately after the completion of the Census of 1871, aud immediately after every de cennial census thereafter, the Representation from each section iu the House of Commons shall be readjusted on the basis of Population. 20. For the purpose of such reacb'ustmenta, Lower Canada shall always be assigned sixty-five Members, and each of the other sections shall, at each readjustment, receive, for the ten years then next succeeding, the number of Members to which it will be entitled on the same ratio of Representation to Population as Lower Canada will enjoy according to the Census last taken by having sixty-five Members. 21. No reduction shall be made in the number of Members returned by any section, unless its population shall have decreased, relatively to the population of the whole Union, to the extent of five per centum. 22. In computing at each decennial period the number of Members to wh^cheach section is en titled, no fractional parts shall be considered, unless when exceeding one-half the number en titling to a Member, in which case a Member shall be given for each such fractional part. 23. The Legislature of each Province shaU divide such Province into the proper number of constituencies, aifd define the boundariea of each of them. 24- The Local Legislature of each Province may, from time to time, alter ths Electoral Dis tricts for the purposes of Representation in such Local Legislature, and distribute the Represen tatives to whioh the Province is entitled in such Local Legislature, in any manner such Legisla ture may see fit. 25. The number of Members may at any time be increased by the General Parliament, — regard be- ing4had to the proportionate rights then existing. 26. Until provisions are made by the General Parliament, all the laws which, at that date of the Proclamation constituting the Union, are iu force in the Provinces respectively, relating to the qualification and disqualification of any per son to be elected, or to s?it or vote as a Member of the Assembly in the said Provinces respective ly ; and relating to the qualification or disqualifi cation of voters and to the oaths to be taken by voters, and to Returning Officers and their pow- eis and duties,— and relating to the proceeding's at Elections, — and to the period during which such elections may be continued, — aud relalino- to the Trial of Controverted Elections, and the proceedings incident thereto.— and relating to the vacatmg of seats of Members, and to the issuim' and execution of new Writs, in case ofany seat being vacated otherwise than by a dissolution- shall respectively apply to elections of Members toservein the House of Commons, for places situate in those Provinces respectively fJl' ^^"'^ House of Commons shall continue i;t:'&i'.' '°'^'' p--.-d%rCsSd Parhament 0''"""^/ ^''^^°° °^ '^'^ Oe"eral a period of twelve calendar mouths shall not in tervene between the last sitting of the Gene a Parliament in one Session, and°the first s7tmi thereof in the next Session. "™S 29. The General Parliament shall have power to make Laws for the peace, welfare and good government of the Federated Provinces (saving the Sovereignty of England), and especially laws respecting the following subjects : — 1. Tbe Public Debt and Property. 2.. The regulation of Trade and Commerce. 3. The imposition or regulation of Duties of Customs on Imports and Exports, — except On Exports of Timber, Logs, Masts, Spars, Deals and Sawn Lum ber from New Brunswick, and of Coal and other minerals from Nova Scotia. 4. The imposition or regulation of Excise Duties. i'. The raising of money by all or any other modes or systems of Taxation. 6. The borrowing of money on the Public Credit. 7. Postal Service. 8. Lines of Steam or other Ships, Railways, Canals and other works, connecting any two or more of the Provinces together, or extending beyond the limits of any Province. 9. Lines of Steamships between the Feder ated Provinces and other Countries. 10. Telegraph Communication and the Incor poration of Telegraph Companies. IL All such works as shall, although lying wholly within any Province, be spe cially declared by the Acts authoriz ing them to be for the general ad vantage. 12. The Census. 13. Militia — Military and Naval Service and Defence. 14. Beacons, Buoys and Light Houses. 15. Navigation and Shipping. 16. Quarantine. 17. Sea Coast and Inland Fisheries. 18. Ferries between any Province and a For eign country, or between any two Provinces. 19. Currency and Coinage. 20. Banking — Incorporation of Banks, and the issue of paper money. 21. Savings Banks. 22. Weights and Measures. 23. Bills of Exchange and Promissory. Notes. 24. Interest. 25. Legal Tender. 26. Bankruptcy and Insolvency. 27. Patents of Invention and Discovery 28. Copy Rights. 29. Indians and Lands reserved for the In dians. 30. Naturalization and Aliens 31. Marriage and Divorce. 32. The Criminal Law, excepting the Consti tution of Courts of Criminal Jurisdic tion, but including the procedure in Crixinal matters. 33. Rendering uniform all or any of the laws relative to property and civil rights iu Upper Canada, Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, Newfoundland and Prince Edward J sland, and rendering uniform the procedure of all or any of the Courts in these Provinces; but any statute for this purpose shall have no force or authority in any Province until sanctioned by the Legislature thereof 34. The establishment of a General Court of Appeal for the Federated Provinces. 35. Immigration. 36. Agriculture. 37. And generally respecting- all matters of a general character, not specially and exclusively reserved for the Local Governments and Legislatures. 30. The General Government and Parliament shall have all powers necessary or proper for per forming the obligations of the Federated Prov inces, as part of the British Empire, to foreign countries arising under Treaties between Great Britain and SBch countries. 32. The General Parliament may also, fiom time to tirae, establish additional Courts, and the General Government may appoint Judges and officers thereof, when the same shall appear ne cessary or for the public advantage, in order to the due execution of the laws of Parliament. 32. All Courts, Judges, and officera of the several Provinces shall aid, assist and obey tbe General Government in the exercise of its rights and powers, and for such purposes shall be held to be Courts, Judges and officers of the General Government. 33. The General Govemment shall appoint and pay the Judges of the Superior Courts in each, Province, and of the County Courts in Up per Canada, and Parliament shall fix their salaries. 34. Until the Consolidation of the Laws of Upper Canada, New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, Newfoundland and Prince Edward Island, the Judges of these Provinces appointed by the Gen eral Government, shall be selected from their respective Bars. 35. The Judges of the Courts of Lower Can ada shall be selected from the Bar of Lower Canada. 36. The Judges of the Court of Admiralty now receiving salaries shall be paid by the Gen eral Government. 37. The Judges of the Superior Courts shall hold their offices during good behaviour, and shall be removable only on the Address of both Houses of Parliament. 38. For each of the Provinces there shall be an Executive Officer, styled the Lieutenant Gov ernor, who shall be appointed by the Governor General in Council, under the Great Seal of the Federated Provinces, during pleasure : such pleas ure not to be exercised before the expiration of the first five years, except for cause : such cause to be communicated in writing to the Lieutenant Governor immediately after the exercise of the pleasure as aforesaid, and also by Message to both Houses of Parliament, within the first week of the firat session afterwards. 4 39. The Lieutenant Governor of each Prov ince shall be paid by the General Government. 40. In undertaking to pay the salaries of the Lieutenant Governors, the Conference does not desire to prejudice the claim of Prince Edward Island upon the Imperial Government for the araount now paid for the salary of the Lieutenant Governor thereof. 41. The Local Government and Legislature of each Province shall be constructed in such man ner as the existing Legislature of each such Province shall provide. 42. The Local Legislature shall have power to alter or amend their constitution from time to time. 43. The Local Legislatures shall have power to make laws respecting the following subjects : 1. Direct taxation, and in New Brunswick the imposition of Duties on the Ex port of Timber, Logs, Masts, Spars, Deals, and Sawn Lumber ; and iu Nova Scotia, of Coals and other min erals. 2. Borrowing money on the credit of the Province. 3. The establishment and tenure of local offices, and the appointment and pay ment of local officers. 4. Agriculture. 5. Immigration. 6. Education ; saving the rights and privil- which the Protestant or Catholic minority in both Canadas may possess as to their Denominational Schools at the time when the Union goes into operation. 7. The sale and management of Public Lands excepting Lauds belonging to the General Government. 8. Sea Coast and Inland Fisheries. 9. The establishment, maintenance and management of Penitentiaries, and Public and Reformatory Prisons. 10. The establishment, maintenance and management of Hospitals, Asylums, Charities, and Eleemosynary Institu tions. 11 . Municipal Institutions. 12. Shop, Saloon, Tavern, Auctioneer and other Licenses. 13. Local Works. 14. The Incorporation of Private or Local Companies, except such as relate to raatters sssigned to the General Par liament. 15. Property and Civil Rights, exceptincr those portions thereof assigned to the General Parliament. 16. Inflicting punishment by fine, penalties, imprisonment or otherwise, for the breach of laws passed in relation to 1-7 TU ^"y^V'^Ject within their jurisdiction. 1/. -the Administration of Justice, includin.' the Constitution, maintenance and organization of the Courts,— both of Civil and Criminal Jurisdiction, and including also the Procedure in Civil matters. 18. And generally all matters of a private or local nature, not assigned to the Gen eral Parliament. 44. The power of respiting, reprieving, and pardoning Prisoners convicted of crimes, and of commuting and remitting of sentences in whole or in part, which belongs of right to the Crown shall be administered by the Lieutenant Governor of each Province in Council, subject to any instructions he may, from time to time, receive from the General Government, and subject lo any provisions that may be made in this behalf by the General Parliament. 45. In regard to all subjects over which juris diction belongs to both the General and Local Legislatures, the laws of the General Parliament shall control and supersede those made by the Local Legislature, and the latter shall be void so far as thay are repugnant to, or inconsistent with, the former. 46. Both the English and French languages may he employed in the General Parliament and in its proceedings, and in the Local Legislature of Lower Canada, and also in the Federal Courts and in the Courts of Lower Canada. 47. No lands or property belonging to the General or Local Governments shall be liable to tflxation. 48. All Bills for appropriating any part ofthe Public Revenue, or for imposing any new Tax or Impost, shall originate in the House of Commons or House of Assembly, as the case may be. 49. The House of Commons or House of Assembly shall not originate or pass any Vote, Resolution, Address or Bill for the appropriation of any part of the Public Revenue, or of any Tax or Impost to any purpose, not first recom mended by Message cf the Governor General or the Lieutenant Governor, as the case may be, during the Session in which such Vote, Resolu tion, Address or Bill is passed. 50. Any Bill of the General Parliament may be reserved iu the usual manner for Her Majesty's Assent, and any Bill of the Local Legislatures may, in like manner, be reserved for the con sideration of the Governor General. 51 . Any BiU passed by the General Parliament shall be subject to disallowance by Her Majesty within two years, as iu the case of Bills passed by the Legislatures of the said Provinces hither to; and, m like manner, any Bill passed by a Local Legislature shall be subject to disallowance by the Governor General within one year after the passing thereof. 52. The Seat of Government of the Federated 1 rovmces shall be Ottawa, subject to the Royal Prerogative. ¦' 53. Subject to any future action of the respec tive Local Governments, the Seat of the Local Government m Upper Canada shall be Toronto : ot Lower Canada, Quebec; and the Seats ofthe Local Governments in the other Provinses shall be as at present. 64. All Stocks, Cash, Bankers' Balances an Securities for money belonging to each Province at the time of the Union, except as hereinafter mentioned, shall belong to the General Govern ment. 55. The following Public Works and Property of each Province shall belong to the General Government, to wit : — 1. Canals. 2. Public Harbours. 3. Light Houses and Piers. 4. Steamboats, Dredges and Public Vessels. 5. River and Lake Improvements. 6. Railway and Railway Stocks^ Mortgages and other debts due by Railway Com panies. 7. Military Roads. 8. Custom Houses, Post Offices and other Public Buildings, except such as may be set aside by the General Govern ment for the use of the Local Legis latures aud Govemments. 9. Property transferred by the Imperial Government and known as Ordnance Property. 10. Armories, Drill Sheds, Military Clothing and Munitions of War, and 11. Lands set apart for public purposes. 56. All lands, mines, minerals and royalties vested in Her Majesty in the Provinces of Upper Canada, Lower Canada, Nova Scotia, New Brunswick and Prince Edward Island, for the use of such Provinces, shall belong to the Local Government of the territory in which the same are so situate ; subject to any trusts that may exist in respect to any of such lands or to any i nterest of other persons in repect of the same. 57. All sums due from purchasers or lessees of such lands, mines or minerals at the time of the Union, shall also belong to the Local Govern ments. 58. All assets connected with such portions of the public debt of any Province as are as sumed by the Local Governments shall also belong to those Governments respectively. 59. The several Provinces shall retain all other Public Property therein, subject to the right of the General Governraent to assume any Lands or Public Property required for Fortifica tions or the Defence of the Country. 60. The General Government shall assume all the Debts and Liabilities of each Province. 61. The Debt of Canada, not specially as sumed by Upper and Lower Canada respectively, shall not exceed, at the time of the Union, $62,500,000 ; Nova Scotia shall enter the Union with a debt not exceeding $8,000,000 ; and New Brunswick with a debt not exceeding $7,000,000. 62. In case Nova Scotia or New Brunswick do uot incur liabilities beyond those for which their Governments are now bound, and which shall make their debts at the date of Union less than $8,(100,000 and $7,000,000 respectively, they shall be entitled to interest at five per cent, ou the amount not so incurred, in like manner as is hereinafter provided for Newfoundland and Prince Edward Island ; the foregoing resolution being in no respect intended to limit the powers given to the respective Governments of those Pro vinces, by Legislative authority, but only to lire it the maximum amount of charge to be assumed by the General Government ; provided always, that the powers so conferred by the respective Legislatures shall be exercised within five years from this date, or the same shall then lapse. 63. Newfoundland and Prince Edward Island, not having incurred Debts equal to those of the other Provinces, shall be entitled to receive, by half-yearly payments, in advance, from the (Jen- eral Government, the Interest at five per cent, ou the difference between the actual amount of their respective Debts at the tirae of the Union, and the average amount of indebtedness per head of the Population of Canada, Nova Scotia and New Brunswick. 64. In consideration of the transfer to the Gen eral Parliament of the powers of Taxation, an annual grant in aid of ^ch Province shall be made, equal to eighty cents per head of the pop ulation, as established by the census of 1861 ; the population of Newfoundland being estimated at 130,000. Such aid shall be in full settlement of all future demands upon the General Government for local purposes, and shall be paid half-yearly in advance to each Province. 65. The position of New Brunswick being such as to entail large immediate charges upon her local reyenues, it is agreed that for the period of ten yeaas, from the time when the Union takes effect, au additional allowance of $63,000 per annum shall be made to that Province. But that so long as the liability of that Province remains under $7,000,000, a deduction equal to the in terest on such deficiency shall be made from the $63,000. 66. In consideration of the surrender to the General Government by Newfoundland of all its rights iu Mines and Minerals, and of all the un granted and unoccupied Lands of the Crown, it is agreed that the sum of $150,000 shall each year be paid to that Province, by semi-annual payments ; provided that that Colony shall retain the right of opening, constructing and controlling Roads and Bridges through any of the said Lands subject to any Laws which the General Parlia ment may pass in respect of the same. 67. All engagements that may before the Un ion be entered into with the Imperial Govern ment for the defence of the Country, shall be as sumed by the General Govermnent. 68. The General Government shall secure, without delay, the completion of the Intercolonial Railway from RiviSre du Loup, through New Brunswick, to Truro in Nova Scotia. 69. The communications with the North-West ern Territory, and the improvements required for the development of the Trade of the Great West with the Seaboard, are regarded by this Conference as subjects of the highest importance to the Federated Provinces, and shall be prose cuted at the earliest possible period tbat the state of the Finances will permit. 70. The sanction of the Imperial and Local 6 Parliaments shall be sought for the Union of the Provinces, on the principles adopted by the Con ference. 71. That Her Majesty the Queen be solicited to determine the rank and name of the Federated Provinces. 72. The proceedings of the Conference shall be authenticated by the signatures of the Dele gates, aud submitted by each Delegation to its own Government, and the Chairman is author ized to submit a copy to the Governor General for transmission to the Secretary of State for the Colonies. Having read the motion, the hon. gentleman commenced to speak in French, when Hon. Mr. Ross requested he should address the House in English. Hon. Mr. LETELLIER thought, as there were two members of tbe govemment in the House, one who spoke best in French (Sir E. P. TACHlfi), and one who did the same in Eng lish, it would be better for the Hon. Premier to speak in French, and then his colleague could do the same in English ; but Hon. Sir E. P. TACHfc concluded that as there were English members who did not understand French at all, while the French members all understood English, it would be best for him to speak in the latter language, and proceed ed to do so. Hon. Sir E. P. TACHE then said that in moving the resolution he felt it his duty first to make a few preliminary remarks, and to give fuUy and thoroughly the reasons which had induced him to assume the grave respon sibility of laying this measure before the House and the country. The reasons were two-fold. They related first to the intrinsic merits of the scheme itself, divested of all other considerations, and next, to the settle ment of the domestic difficulties which for some years had distracted the countiy, and the means we might and ought to employ tore- store good feeling, harmony and concord there in. He would, then, first address himself to what he considered the intrinsic merits of the scheme of Confederation, and he would there fore say that if were anxious to continue our connection with the British Empire, and to preserve intact our institutions, our laws, and even our remembrances of the past, we must sustain the measure. If the oppor- -[, tunity wbicb now presented itself were allowed to pass by unimproved, whether we would or would not, we would be forced into the Ameri can Union by violence, and if not by violence, would be placed upon an inclined plain which would carry us there insensibly. In either pase the result would be the same. In our present condition we would not long continue to exist as a British colony. To sustam this position he thought it was only necessaiy to look at the present state of Canada, its extent, its agricultural and mineral resoui'ces, its in- ternal means of communication—natural and artificial, — its geographical position and its climate. The extent of the Canadian terri tory was, perhaps, not defined, but it was suf ficiently well known to enable him to state that it was as large as many empires in En- rope, larger than France or Austria. He knew that the portion cultivated was, in re spect to its superficial area, only as to the sea coast to the sea itself. We had vast forests not yet opened or occupied, and yet we had a population numbering over two and a half millions of souls. With such an extent of territory and so fertile a soil, he had no doubt whatever that in less than half a century Ca nada would embrace a population equal to that of the large empires of the old world. Then with regard to our internal communica tions, natural and artificial, there was the noble St. Lawrence, which, with great pro priety, might be called the father of rivers, for this stream, in point of navigable extent, was longer than any other river in the world. Some of its tributaries which would help to people the interior, were larger than the first- class rivers of Europe, and as to its lakes, none such are to be found elsewhere, especially in view of the facilities they afford to trade. Then the minerals of Canada, Vhich were only now beginning to attract attention, were of the most valuable character, and as practical men asserted, much more valuable than the richest auriferous regions could be. The hon orable member then referred to the artifioisJ commucations of the country, viz., our Canals, which, he said, were on a scale unequalled in America, or, indeed, in the world. Our Rail way system too, in proportion to our means and population, was as extensive as could be found anywhere else; yet with all these ad vantages, natural and acquired, he was bound to say we could not become a great nation. We labored under a drawback or disadvantage wbich would efiectually prevent that, and bo would defy any one to take a map of the world and point to any great nation which had not sea ports of its own open at all times of the year. Canada did not possess those advantages, but was shut up in a prison, as it were, for five months of the year in fields of ice, which all the steam engineering apparatus of human ingenuity could not overcome, and so long as this state of things continued, we must con- sent to be a small people, who could, at any moment, be assailed and invaded by a people better situated in that respect than we were. Canada was, in fact, just like a farmer who might stand upon an elevated spot on hia property, from which he could look around upon fertUe fields, meandering streams, wood and all else that was necessary to his domestic wants, but who had no outlet to the highway. To be sure he might have an easy, good-na tured neighbor, who had such an outlet, and this neighbor might say to him, " Don't be uneasy about that, for I will allow you to pass on to the highway, through my cross road, and we shall both profit by the arrangement." So long as this obliging neighbor was in good humor everything would go on pleasantly, but the very best natured people would sometimes get out of temper, or grow capricious, or cir cumstances might arise to cause irritation. And so it might come to pass that the excellent neighbor would get dissatisfied. For instance, he might be involved in a tedious and expen sive law suit with some one else ; it might be a serious affair— in fact, an afiair of life or death, and he might come to the isolated farmer and say to him, " I understand that you and your family are all sympathising with my adversary ; I don't like it at all, and I am determined you will find some other outlet to the. highway than my cross road, for hence forth my gats will be shut against you." In such a case what is the farmer to do ? There is the air left, but until the aerostatic science is more practically developed, he can hardly try ballooning without the risk of breaking his neck. (Laughter.) Well, that was pre cisely our position in reference to the United States. Since the Atlantic and St. Lawrence Railway was opened we have had a very con venient outlet to the sea, and he, with other hon. members now present, would remember the joyful jubilee which was held on the occa- ision of its opening at Boston in 1851 or '52.- For one he was perfectly delighted, as being a man of a different origin, to mark how the two branches of the Anglo-Saxon race fraternised. How they did shake hands to be sure I How they did compliment each other as possessing qualities superior to all other people. They were indeed very affectionate and almost swore eternal friendship and fidelity, and he (Sir E. P. Tach^) had no doubt whatever of their perfect sincerity at the time. The con sequences of this gi-eat work had, no doubt, been highly advantageous to both sides, for their commercial relations had enlarged very much, so much indeed that bow the transac tions with the United States were, as he be lieved, more extensive than those with Great Britain. If the advantages had been all on one side this increase would, of course, not have taken place. But how were we situated now? Difficulties had supervened, in which we were in no wise concerned, but which ori ginated with themselves. It was North against South solely, yet these difficulties had affected the good feeling between them and this coun try. To be sure there had been no misunder standing at all between our respective Govern ments, but the minds of the people on both sides had been considerably affected. The people of the Northern States believed that Canadians sympathized with the South much more than they really did, and the conse quences of this misapprehension were: first, that we had been threatened with the abolition of the transit system ; then tbe Reciprocity Treaty was to be discontinued ; then a pass port system was inaugurated, which was almost equivalent to a prohibition of intercourse, and the only thing which really remained to be done was to shut down tbe gate altogether and prevent passage through their territory. Would any one say that such a state of things was one desirable for Canada to be placed in ? WUl a great people in embryo, as he believed we were, cooUy and tranquilly cross their arms and wait for what might come next ? For his part he held that the time had now arrived when we should establish a union with the great Gulf Provinces. He called them great advisedly, for they had within themselves many of the elements which went to constitute greatness, and of some of wbich we were destitute. — Canada was unquestionably wanting in several of these important elements, and he had been very sorry a few days ago to hear an hon. member of this House make comparisons un favorable to those countries. That hon. mem ber had said the Lower Provinces were poor and needy, and that like all other poor people they would no doubt be glad to connect them selves with a wealthy partner. He had also said their product of wheat was very small, and that one of the inferior counties in Upper Canada yielded more than tbe whole of New Brunswick. Well, the allegations in respect of the produce of wheat might be true ; but that did not necessarily constitute them poor provinces. Let the honorable member look at MassachiLsetts, Connecticut, Rhode Island and New Hampshire, which, in respect of agricultural produce, might be said to be poor, so poor that an American had once told him (Sir E. P. Tach]6) that theydid not even grow grass, and their inhabitants had to file the teeth of their sheep in summer to enable thom to get a subsistence. (Laughter.) Yet were these states poor? Had they no resources from their trade and manufactures ? If they did not produce wealth in one way they cer tainly did in others, and so it was with New Brunswick. If it did not produce wheat, it produced timber in immense quantities. It had a very extensive fishing coast which was a source of great wealth. Some honorable gentlemen would perhaps remember what an eminent man from Nova Scotia — the Hon. Joseph Howe-— had said at a dinner in this country in 1850, that be knew of a small granite rock upon which, at a single haul of the net, the fishermen had taken 500 barrels of mackerel. That was a great haul no doubt — (laughter) — ^but the honorable gentle man had not given the size of the barrels. (Laughter.) Still no one could deny that the Gulf Provinces were of immense importance, tf only in respect of their fisheries. Then they wero rich in minerals. Their coal alone was an element of great wealth. It had been said that where coal was found the country was of more value than gold. Look at England, and what was the chief source of her wealth if not coal ? Deprived of coal, she would at once sink to the rank of a second or third rate power. But Canada had no coal, and notwithstanding all her other elements of greatness, she required that mineral in order to give her completeness. What she had not, the Lower Provinces had ; and what they had not, Canada had. Then as to ship-building, it was an industry prosecuted witb great vigor and success in those provinces, especially in New Brunswick, and some of the finest vessels sailing under the British flag had been built in the port of St. John, which annually launched a consi derable number of tbe largest class. They were not beggars, nor did they wish to come into the union as such ; but as independent provinces, able to keep up their credit, and provide for tbeir own wants. They would bring into the common stock a fair share of revenue, of property, and of every kind of industry. As to their harbours, he (SirE. P. TAOHifc) had had the good fortune to visit tbem personally, and would say they could not be surpassed .anywhere ; in fact he believed tbey were unequalled in the world. He would especially refer to that of Halifax, and would ask honorable members to imagine an exten sive roadstead, protected by several islands standing out in the sea, so as to break tbe waves and quiet the waters in the worst of storms. This most beautiful harbour could accommodate, in perfect safety, more than 100 of the largest vessels ; but this was not all, for at the east end where it diminished into a gully, but with very deep water, you enter into a large natural basin, rounded as it were by the compass, and of an extent sufficient to take in all the navies of the world. The entrance to this magnificent inner harbour was rendered inaccessible to any foe by the fortifi cations erected at the mouth, and the entrance could, moreover, be so barred that no hostile fleet could ever get through. He did not suppose the fleets of England would ever need to take refuge there — (hear, hear) — although it had been loudly alleged that they could be blown out of the water in an incredibly short space of time — (laughter) — ^but it might afford shelter to isolated vessels, in case they were hard pushed by superior numbers. Well, under the union, Canada would become a partner in these advantages, and with the harbours of Halifax and Quebec, they might well feel proud of their country. On the whole, he thought that the Confederation of all the Provinces had become an absolute necessity, and that it was for us a question of to be or not to be. If we desired to remain British and monarchical, and if we desired to pass to our children these advantages, this measure, he repeated, was a necessity. But there were other motives and other reasons which should induce us to agree to the scheme. Every honorable gentleman in the House knew the political position of the countiy, and were acquainted with the feelings of irritation which have prevailed for many years. They knew it happily not by their experience in this House, but by the tone of the public press, and by the discussions in another place where taunts and menaces were freely flung across the floor by contending parties. They knew what human passions were, and how, when bitter feelings continued for a long time, the distance between exasperation and actual conflict was not very great. They had now before their own eyea an example of the effects of such disagreements. It was persistently believed by many that the rival interests would never come to a rupture, but for three years they had been waging a conflict which bad desolated and ruined the fairest portion of the country, and in the course of which acts of barbarity had been committed which were only equalled by the darkest ages. W h ^'"'^'^'' r'l ''°* "^"^^ perfect, and the ^aTrinhV ^"^T^d whon, as he believed, all the patriotic men in the country ought toUte in providing a remedy for the troubles we had to contend with. It might be said that the remedy proposed was not required, but he would like to know what other could be pro posed. Legislation in Canada for the last two years had come almost to a stand stUl, and if any one would refer to the Statute Book since 1862, he would find that the only public measures there inscribed had been passed simply by the permission of the Opposition. This was the condition of things for two years, and if this were an evil there was another not less to be deploied ; he referred to the adminis tration of public affairs during the same period. From the 21st May, 1862, to the end of June, 1864, there had been no less than five different Governments in charge of the business of the country. The honorable member here gave a history of the several changes until the Mac- DONALD-DORION Administration died, as he stated, of absolute weakness, falling under the weight they were unable to carry. Tbeir successors were not more successful, and being defeated were thinking of appealing to the country, which they might have done with more or less success, gaining a consti tuency here, and perhaps losing another else where. They had assumed the charge of affairs with an understanding that they would have a right to this appeal, and while they were consulting about it they received an inti mation from the real chief of the Opposition, through one of their own friends, to the effect that he was desirous of making overtures to them, with tbe view of seeking to accommo date the difficulties. The honorable gentleman and some of his friends then came into contact with the leaders of the Government, and it was agreed between them to try to devi.se a scheme whicb would put an end to the mis understandings, and at the same time secure for Canada and the other provinces a position whioh would ensure their future safety and procure them the respect and confidence of other nations. They arranged a large scheme and a smaller one. If the larger failed, then they were to fall back upon the minor, which provided for a federation of the two sections of the province. At the time these measures were resolved upon, the country was bordering on civil strife, and he would ask if it was not the duty of both sides to do aU they could to prevent the unfortunate results which would have followed. An honorable member oppo site (Hon. Mr. Letellier de St. Just) had said, a few days ago, that it would have been easy to have prevented the necessity for a Confederation of all the provinces, by granting 3 to Upper Canada the increased representation, or the demand of representation according to population, which they had been contending for. Hon. Mr. LETELLIER DE ST. JUST begged to say that the Hon. Premier must have misunderstood him. What he had said was that if the proposition had been made to the people whether they should have a Con federation of aU the provinces, or give Repre sentation according to Population to Upper Canada, they would have chosen the latter ; and when he had alluded to some other mode of accommodating the difficulties, he meant that if the Govemment had applied to other parties in the Legislature than those they had had associated with themselves, they might have succeeded without having recourse to Confederation. Hon. Sir E. P. TACH^ said that he had not been alone in interpreting the honorable member as he had done, for two city journals had taken the same view of his remarks. Hon. M. letellier said he was aware of it, but they were mistaken for all that. Hon. Sir E. P. TACHE— Well, it did not much matter ; but the honorable member should recollect that Lower Canada had con stantly refused the demand of Upper Canada for representation according to population, and for the good reason that, as the union between them was legislative, a preponderance to one of the sections would have placed the other at its mercy. It would not be so in a Federal Union, for all questions of a general nature would be reserved for the General Government, and those of a local character to the local governments, who would have the power to manage their domestic affairs as they deemed best. If a Federal Union were obtained it would be tantamount to a separa tion of the provinces, and liower Canada would thereby preserve its autonomy together with all the institutions it held so dear, and over which they could exercise the watchful ness and surveillance necessary to preserve them unimpaired. [The honorable member re peated this portion of his speech in French, for the express purpose of conveying his meaning in the clearest and most forcible manner to his fellow-members for Lower Canada, who might not have apprehended so well the English.] But there might be a portion of the inhabitants of Lower Canada who might at a first glance have greater reason to complain than the French Roman Catholics, and these were the English Protestants. And why ?. Because they were in a minority ; but 10 he thought that if they took tbe trouble fully to consFder the subject, they would be re assured and satisfied with the scheme. First a great event had taken place ; tbe law of Lower Canada had been consolidated, and the English-speaking people residing in that section had got reconciled to it; infa,ct they were well satisfied therewith. In this respect, then, they were secure. But they might say that the majority in tbe Local Legislature might hereafter be unjust to them, but he thought that, on looking at tbe past, their fears might be allayed. Before the union ofthe provinces, when the large majority of members in the Legislature were French, the English inhabi tants had never found cause of complaint against them. In no instance had injustice been attempted. Tbe difficulty was that the minority wanted to rule and wanted to possess the whole power of the state in their hands. That tbe people of Lower Canada always acted t/)wards the English with liber ality was best exemplified by facts. Before the union ;Wile the constituencies were almost exclusively French, English Protestant gentle men were frequently returned to Parliament, and he had now opposite to him an honorable member who had for twenty years represented an entirely French and Roman Catholic county. He doubted if in the course of those twenty /ears that honorable member had ever been asked whether he were Scotch or Protestant. They took the man for his sterling worth. It was even a fact that the French had elected members with extraordinary names, and as everybody knew, there was sometimes a good deal in a name. (Hear, hear.) Now if there was one name which French Canadians dis liked more than another, it was that of Luther. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) Yet they had elected a gentleman bearing that significant appellation. He was glad they had, and he had no doubt he bad been elected because of his personal worth ; but it unquestionably showed a great deal of liberal feeling on the part of the electors. (Hear hear.) But if an English Protestant was bad in the eyes of a French Canadian, a French Protestant was infinitely worse, and yet the county of Lot biniere had elected a French Canadian Pro testant without even questioning his religion. That gentleman was a most worthy, able and well_ educated person, and every way well qualified for the important trust. But again, quite lately, in a dspision in Lower Canada numbering over fifty thousand souls, wf which only one thousand four hundred were ilnglish, an deotion of a member to this Chamber had taken place, the candidates being a French Roman Catholic gentleman, long and well known, and an English Protestant — and with what result? Why, that tbe English Protes tant had beaten the French Canadian Roman Catholic by one thousand votes. (Hear.) Could any greater proof of a tolerant and liberal feeling be exhibited ? The.se examples should show, as he thought, that the Protes tants of Lower Canada were sure to meet with not justice simply, but with the largest tolera tion. It might perhaps be said that Mr. Prick, who had been elected for the division of which he spoke, being a large merchant doing busi ness in Chicoutimi, had used the influence which his position gave him over many electors who were in his debt to obtain success ; but whatever might be said of Chicoutimi, it could not be said of the county of Charlevoix, where he had no such business relations, and yet he obtained a majority there too. The fact was, the result might be considered not only as a mark of confidence in Mr. Price, the son elected, but as a token of respect and gratitude to Mr. Price, senior, who had by his energy and enterprise opened up the Saguenay country, and who, in a certain sense, might be said to be the father of that region. Much had been said on the war of races, but that war was extinguished on the day the British Govemment granted Canada Responsible Gov emment, by which all its inhabitants, without distinction of race or creed, w'ere placed on a footing of equality. (Hear, hear) . The war of races found its grave in the resolutions of the 3rd September, 1841, and he hoped never to hear of it again. We were so situated that there must needs be mutual forbearance. This life waa one of compromise. Not only was for bearance needed in public life, but in domestic life. If one member in a family insists upon having all his own way, there will be trouble, and so through all possible relations of humanity. He oelieved the French Canadians would do all in their power to render justice to their fellow-subjects of English origin, and it should not be forgotten that if the former were in a majority in Lower Canada, the English would be in a majority in the General Govemment, and that no act of real injustice could take place, even if there were a disposition to perpetrate it, without its bemg reversed there. He had now given to the House the motives whioh had led him to take the responsibility of introducing tbis important measure, and he trusted they would be viewed as sufficient. When the proper time for the discusBion of tha detaUs came, he would be 11 prepared to give such explanations as might seem requisite, and as to the mode and time of the discussion he would leave that to the decision of the House. Hon. Mr. FERGUSSON BLAIR— [Owing to some noise in the House, the reporter did not clearly understand the opening remarks of the hon. member, except so far as that he de sired to convey the impression that what he was about to say was not to be regarded as committing any one but himself; that he did not speak for any party or as representing any party in the House. The hon. member wa.s also understood to allege he did not think the political struggles and difficulties alluded to by the Hon. Premier could be taken as sufficient to justify the great constitutional change now proposed]. He thought that in the course of party struggles for supremacy, the Opposition had erred in seeking to oust the Ministry be fore they themselves were prepared to assume the charge with a reasonable prospect of being able to carry on the Government with success. This was the British system, and an instance had lately occurred in the Imperial Parliament exemplifying it. On the Danish question Mr. D'IsRAELi could have defeated the Ministry, but, being aware that he could not form a strong Administration, many of his party ab stained from voting. Such a condition df things could happen just as well in an assem bly of 300 as in one of 600, and he did not think the change proposed would guarantee immunity from future difficulties Of the same kind, therefore they might happen in the Gen eral Govemment as well as in that of Canada alone. But looking at the scheme as pre sented, and forgetting all past party disputes and the charges against the public men con cemed, it caine before the House in such a shape as to make it necessary to accept or re ject it. He must say he could not but attach great weight to a scheme prepared by men of different political opinions, by eminent men who had met together for the express purpose of arranging, it, and who had agreed upon its provisions. If it were obstructed by any seri ous amendments, involving a prolonged delay, such delay might be fatal, and if it were to pass, he thought it should be allowed to do sb at a sufficiently early period to pei-mit of its being laid before the Imperial Parliament this year. (Hear, hear.) He could not shut his eyes to the fact that whether or not the union added strength to the provinces interested, it would unquestionably add to their respecta bility and standing, both at home'and abroad. (Hear.) The people of England were^ evi dently looking to the proposed change with confidence and hope, and as likely to perpet uate the connection of the provinces with the empire for a long time to come. But it was well known that there was an anti-colonial , party in England persistently urging that it ( would be an advantage to the nation to get rid of the colonies. The question of defending them was an embarrassing one, and unless some such scheme as this were adopted, it might present grave difficulties. If the scheme were rejected, the effect would be very injuri ous upon our credit. (Hear.) But if adopted, the reverse would be the case. Its acceptance would also improve our position in the eyes of our neighbors in France and other nations ; indeed it would, in all probability, give us a national standing, without the necessity of separating from the mother country. For these reasons he had come to the conscientious con clusion that it would be highly injurious to reject the scheme, and that it was our duty to pass it as soon as was consistent with a due consideration of what was due to so important a subject. He did not think it necessary to express, at greater length, his reasons for giv ing the motion his support, but he again de sired it to be well understood that he spoke only for himself, and not in concert with any one else. At the same time he might say, that from what he knew personally of the feeling of his section of the countiy, it -^as highly favorable to the measure. There might be some matters of detaU upon which there was a difference of opinion, and when the reso lutions came up in their order, he would indi cate what they were. The proposed submis sion of the scheme to the electors would in volve a delay which could not be compensated for by any benefit proposed to be derived from such a course'; but if there should hereafter be any very important public movement and numerous petitions in favor of an appeal to the people, then the subject would present a different aspect. Or if the majority in favor of the scheme in the other branch of the Le gislature should be very small, that might be deemed a sufficient reason for submitting it to the country. As to the course to be pursued in the decision on the merits, he did not know whe ther it would be best to have it in Committee of the Whole or with the Speaker in the chair. Hon. SirE.P.TACHE thought It would be better that theSpeaker should continue in the chair, but with the understanding , that every honoraible member shoijld be at liberty to speak as/reely and frequently as if the House were in oommittea. 12 ¦J Hon. Mr. FERGUSSON BLAIR assented. - Hon. Mr. LETELLIER DE ST. JUST said, that if he were sufficiently master of English he would address the House in that language, but not being so would have to use the French. The difficulties to which allusion had been made were produced by two causes. They were not constitutional, however, but parliamentary, and, as he believed, could have been surmounted without recourse to the constitutional change which it was proposed to adopt without appeal to the country. It was trae that difficulties had succeeded to difficulties, and that legislation was stopped, but if the leaders had sought in the Legisla ture itself for the means of removing them, he believed they would have been found. Who would guarantee the Govemment under the new Constitution from the recurrence of similar troubles ? There would of conrse be an Op position as in the smaller House. If similar difficulties happened, would the Confederation seek relief in another change of Constitution. On the contrary, would not relief be sought in the means he had suggested. At any rate he did not think such a change as the union of all the British provinces was required. In 1820, when a union of Upper and Lower Canada was proposed, it was objected that if it did not work a larger union would follow, and then, lastly, a legislative union of all the provinces. Two of these steps had already been taken, and we were going on with rapid strides towards the last. In such a case it was not hard to conceive what would be the posi tion of Lower Canada. It was a misfortune that we had to contend with national prejudices but it was impossible to forget them. In the event of a legislative union would tbe guaran tees proposed to Lower Canada under the federation system be found ? Would it not then be at the mercy of those they now feared ? He admitted we had a rich country as repre sented ; we had wheat fields, mineral resources forests^ rivers and lakes, but to make them avaUable did we require an increase of terri tory? We had territory enough, and an increase would be a source of weakness, not of strength. Would it not add to our already large frontier, and make us more vulnerable jto invasions. The union would not increase the power of England to protect us, and H-ngland would have the same interest in protecting the colonies without as well as with the union. New Branswick might be rich in coal, in wood and in fisheries, and do a large iTfr r.i'^P ^'''^^''^' I'^t ttese things would seek the best maxkets under any circum- stances, and he did not see that a union with us would increase their value, and if it did it would be no advantage. Then, as to Nova Scotia with its small population and fine harbour — ^where would be tbe advantage of connection witb her? Though not united would not the harbour be equally available to our vessels ? He would now say he preferred to Confederation a legislative union of Upper and Lower Canada with inequality of repre sentation in the Lower House and equality in the Upper. This would not add to the ex penses of the province, and would be more consonant with our interests and the sentiments [ideas] of the people. Though there should be inequality in the Assembly, the equality in the Legislative Council would act as a com- terpoise, and prevent one section from invadins the interests of the other. Then did not Con federation consecrate [establish] the principle of representation according to population ? It would give larger to one of the nationalities, and, as the General Government would be able to veto the acts of the Local Government, would there be no danger to Lower Canada? If representation by population had been so much opposed in this part, it was doubtless because there was cause of fear, yet this very power was to be conferred upon the Federal Government. If it could not be given with safety under our present regime, how could it be safer to give it to the Confederation. The advantage of the plan to Upper Canada was well imderstood, for immediately after the coalition they all agreed to say they had gained what they had so long contended for. Hon. Sir E. P. TACHE— Well, after all, they only got what the honorable member himself proposed to give them. Hon. Mr. LETELLIER DE ST. JUST said he always preferred a short direct course to a long tortuous one. The friends of the new movement had tried to conceal the fact that representation according to population was to be conceded to Upper Canada, but they had tailed, and the avowal had come out at last. The resolutions not being before the House, it would be improper to go into the merits of the details, but he could not avoid alluding to one point which was of profound interest. It was clear that the constituencies had not sent honoraMe members to this House tor the purpose of electing themselves mem bers tor life, as they were invited to do. They were not sent here to change the Constitution, but to uphold it. (Hear.) You were, in tact, about to declare that the local govem ments would have power to recommend to the 13 General Govemment that you should be ap pointed for life. If so, then let the people say whether such power should be conferred. Take the means to make sure that the mem bers of the Assembly shall appeal to the country. In New Brunswick the question was about to be submitted to the people through a general election. To be sure, it was said that the term of Parliament there had expired ; but if the Ministers in New Brunswick had understood they could force a vote, as was about to be done in Canada, he doubted whether the general election would have taken place immediately. He believed, too, that the Conference generally had re garded this as the most proper mode. Then he did not think that such a change should have been brought about under a Coalition Gtivernment. This was contrary 'to British usage, and he beUeved that if a petition was numerously signed, and forwarded to the Imperial Government, representing that this important change had been brought about by a coalition, the act would be declared uncon stitutional. The scheme was practically unknown to the people. Under some pres sure it had been sent confidentially , to the members, but what did the country under stand of it ? — ^little or nothing. It had been said that if the scheme were not adopted now it would be in danger ; but would it not keep good for a little while ? Was it feared that the people would find out that it would occasion increased expense, and so refuse to have it ? If only for the reason that it was not known to the people, he would vote against it. When the details came to be discussed, he believed some of them would not be ap proved ; and he also thought that the project did not embrace all the provisions which it should embrace. Finally, he thought the Government should not set its face against some changes in the scheme, were it only in the matter of the election of members to the Legislative Council, and he hoped the House would lead them to consent to that alteration. When the resolutions came up, he would make it his duty to speak more positively to the particulars in question. The honorable mem ber then sat down, saying he approved of the mode of discussion proposed. (Hear, hear.) Hon. Mr. CURRIE then moved that the debate be adjourned until Monday, which was carried. LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY. Fridat, February 3, 186.5. Atty. Gen. MACDONALD said the Speaker having desired that he should not go on with the Address about the union of the colonies, he proposed not to take it up till Monday next, but as the matter was one of the utmost importance, he thought it would be well now to settle the mode of conducting the discussion. He would propose that after the disoussion commenced, it should continue day after day, and, that for the purpose of greater regularity the Speaker should remain in the chair. At the same time he would propose that tbe rule which prevented mem bers speaking more than once when the Speak er was in the chair should be suspended, in order that every member might haie the same liberty of free discussion as he would have in Committee of the Whole. Hon. j. S. MACDONALD said the Attor ney General's proposition that discussion should continue day after day, was one wbich, in his opinion, ought not to be entertained by tbe House. This was a very grave question, and he thought the people of this country had a right to consider maturely the sentiments promulgated by their representatives with re gard to it. He was sorry, therefore, to have heard it announced by the Attorney General that the Government were to hurry the mea sure through, to the exclusion of all other matters. Atty. Gen. MACDONALD said he had not stated this. His idea was that after the debute commenced it should go on each day after half-past seven, leaving the aftemoon sit- tingfor other business. If the discussion was to be confined to government days, the debate of Tuesday would be forgotten by Friday, the same arguments would be gone over, and they would sit the whole year round to finish it. Hon. j. S. MACDONALD said other changes of no less importance than this, with reference to Clergy Reserves, Legislative Coun cU, Seignorial Tenure, &c., had been before the people for a quarter of a century, and fully discussed session after session before being finally disposed of. Public opinion in that way was fully matured on these questions, but here they were called on at a few days' notice to change entirely the Constitution we lived under, and time was not to be allowed for public opinion to be expressed on it. He ob jected also to the suspension of the rules of Parliament, so as to make the discussion take 14 place with the Speaker in the chair, instead of in Committee of the Whole. If there was any question on which the House should adhere to its forms, it was a question like this — when the Govemment was so strong, so outrageously strong — (laughter) — the minority should be protected by the rules of the House being fully maintained. He observed the President of the Council laugh. He had learned a good deal from that gentleman in standing up for the rules of the House. But now, forsooth, the lion and lamb were lying together, and the Government, knowing that they had it in their power, were now to carry the measure through by brute force — the force of the majority. Attt. Gen. MACDONALD said there was nothing irregular in his proposing tbat discussion should go on with the Speaker in the chair. The suspension of the rules he proposed was for the protection of the mino rity, by allowing each member to speak and state his objections as often as he pleased. Hon. j. H. CAMERON approved of the proposition that discussion be conducted with the Speaker in the chair. With reference to the other proposition tbat it should go on from day to day, he suggested that after Attorney General Macdonald had stated his views at length on Monday, the debate should be ad journed for at least one week, that people in the country might have the views of the Gov emment fully before them, before the debate fairly commenced. After tbat it might go on day after day. Hon. Mr. HOLTON said he had not regarded the Attorney General's proposition in exactly the same light as the member for Cornwall, but was willing to accept it as indi cating a desire on the part of the Government to afford facilities for a fuU and free disoussion. He thought, however, it would be advantage ous if, after the general discussion took place with the Speaker in the chair, the House went into Committee of the Whole, to consider tbe details. He thought three days in the week sufficient for the discussion. Hon. Mr. BROWN said' the member for Chateauguay had rightly apprehended the object ofthe Attorney General when he treated his proposition as dictated by a desire to afford the fullest opportunity of discussing this great question. Nothing could be further from their intention than to hurry the measure through by brute force, as charged by the member for Cornwall. Although the Attorney General had proposed that the discussion should continue day alter day, he had not suggested for a moment that the whole should be hurried on; the debate at any period might be adjourned, if deemed necessary, to allow time for the expression of public opinion. There were 130 members, and almost every member would desire to speak on the question, and he thought clearly the proper course waa to devote every day after half-past seven to the discussion, to allow all the members on both sides to state their views, that they might go to the country and be fully considered. He thought there was a good deal of force in the suggestion of the member for Peel, that after the views of the Government had been stated distinctly to the House the debate should be adjourned for a short time. Of course the Attorney General East, as well as the Attorney General West, would desire to explain the scheme from his point of view, so would the Minister of Finance ; and probably he also (Mr. Brown) from his own particular stand point would like to say something about the scheme. After the views of the Government had thus been put before the House, there could be no difficulty about adjourning the debate for a time, that the country might distinctly under stand what they were about. After some remarks by Hon. Mr. Cau chon and Mr. Dunkin, Mr. POWELL asked whether tbe House was expected to adopt the scheme in its entirety, or would it be open to the House to adopt one portion of it and reject another portion of it ? Hon. Mr. HOLTON— That is not a fair question. Hon. Mr. BROWN— Perfectly fair. Mr. POWELL thought Mr. Helton's re gard for fair play excessive, when it even im pelled bim to interfere on behalf of the Ad ministration. Hon. Mr. HOLTON— I think it would be unfair to answer such a question. Atty. Gen. MACDONALD said he agreed- that Mr. Cameron's proposition was a reason able one. The Government would, in the first place, lay their case before the House, and through the press before the country, and then allow a reasonable time for the country to judge of the case as presented by the Go vernment. It would not, of course, be pre sented by himself alone, as the President of the CouncO had said. The subject was so large in itself and comprehended so great a variety of details, that he fancied all the mem bers of the Government would find it necessary to express their views on particular portions of this great scheme. In answer to the mem ber for Carleton, th« Government desired to 15 say that they presented the scheme aa a whole, and would exert aU the influence they could bring to bear in the way of argument to in duce the House to adopt the scheme without alteration, and for the simple reason that the scheme was not one framed by the Government of Canada, or by tho Government of Nova Scotia, but was in the nature of a treaty set tled between the different colonies, each clause of which had been fully discussed, and which had been agreed to by a system of mutual compromise. Of course it was competent to the House to vote against the Address as a whole, or to adopt amendments to it, but if they did so, it would then be for the Govem ment to consider whether they would press the scheme further on the attention of the House. It was obvious that unless the scheme were adopted as it had been settled between the different provinces, if they prosecuted it fur ther, they would have to commence de novo, and he had no hesitation in expressing his be lief that if the scheme was not now adopted in all its principal details, as presented to the House, we could not expect to get it passed this century. It had been only in conse quence of a very happy concurrence of cir cumstances, which might not easily arise again, that the different provinces bad been enabled to arrive at the conclusion now ' presented, and he should exceedingly regret Iin the interests of Canada and of the future lof British North America, if anything should delay beyond this year the completion and conclusion of this great scheme. The resolu tions on their face bore evidence of compro mise ; perhaps not one of the delegates from any of the provinces would have propounded this scheme as a whole, but being impressed with the conviction that it was highly desir able with a view to the maintenance of British power on this continent that there should be Confederation and a junction of all the pro vinces, tho consideration of the details was entered upon in a spirit of compromise. Not one member of the Canadian (rovernment had his own views carried out in all the details, and it was the same with the other delegates. But after a fuU discussion of sixteen days, and after the various details had been voted on, the resolutions as a whole were agreed to by a unanimous vote ; every one ofthe delegates, whatever his view to any of the details, being satisfied to adopt the whole scheme as adopted by a majority for each individual re solution, and to press it upon his own Legis lature as the only practicable scheme that could be carried; such being the case, he trusted tho Government would have the sup port of a very large majority ofthe House in carrying the scheme just as it stood, mem bers sacrificing their individual opinions as to particular details, if satisfied with the Govern ment that the scheme as a whole was for the benefit ard prosperity of the people of Canada. Hon. Mr. HOLTON would like to inquire whether, according to the course of proceed ing proposed by the Attorney General, the several resolutions of the Conference would be submitted separately to the House as affirma tive propositions ? Atty. Gen. MACDONALD said " no." The proposition submitted to the House is that an Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying that a bill ^should be passed based on these resolutions. All amendments might be moved to that one resolution. It would be the same thing, in fact, as to move them upon each resolution separately. Hon. Mr. HOLTON held that the Govern ment ought to ask for an affirmative vote from the House on each of these resolutions. They had been prepared and passed by a self-consti tuted body, without the House or the people ever having been consulted on tbe subject. Unless the House were a sham altogether, the least reference that could be paid to it would be to obtain a direct affirmation of each of the basis on which the projected Constitu tion which was hereafter to govern us were to be founded. Hon. Mr. CAUCHON wished information as to whether the scheme was to be discussed as a whole, or whether there would be an op portunity given to consider each part of it separately ? There were part of the resolu tions about which there might be some mis understanding and difference of opinion, aa for example those clauses by one of which it was stated that the civil laws of the country were to be under the control of the local governments, and by the other of which the law of marriage was placed under the control of the General Government. The law of mar riage pervaded the whole civil code, and he wanted to know how it could be placed under a different legislature from that which was to regulate the rest of the civil law. He did not, however, see why an affirmative vote on each resolution would enable the House to pronounce with more freedom on these details than the course proposed by the Attorney General. Hon. a. a. DORION said the meinber for Montmorency misapprehended the scope of the objection made by the member for Ohatoau- 16 guay. That objection was that the freedom of Parliament would be better consulted, and more opportunity would be given to learn tbe sense of the House by the different clauses of the Address being moved seriatim, in the same way as supplies were voted. This was the manner in which the Irish Union Act had been passed, as well as tbe bill to change the Government of India, the Canadian Union Act of 1840, Legislative CouncU Act, and other important measures. This was tbe uniform course of Parliament, and there was no pre cedent to be found for any contraiy mode of proceeding. He thought the course proposed ou the Opposition side of the House tbe most reasonable — that there should be a general dis cussion on the scheme, in which Members of the Government should state their views ; that then there should be an adjournment for a week to enable the public to consider these speeches, and that then the subject should be discussed three whole days each week till dis posed of This would, in fact, be devoting more time to it than tbe plan that was pro posed by the President of the CouncU, and would secure more fair, open and full oppor tunity for discussion. Atty. Gen. MACDONALD could uuder- ,. stand the object of tbe hon. meinber for Hochelaga. That hon. gentleman was op posed to Confederation, and the course he pro posed was just that which was calculated to ^throw the scheme to another Parliament and till another conference was held, so that Con federation might not be effected tiU the day of judgLiJut. These resolutions were in the na ture oi a treaty, and if not adopted in their entiKty, the proceedings would have to be coiny.ienccd de novo. If each province under took to change the details of the scheme, there would be no end to the discussions and the conterences which would have to be held — Then, as to having a debate three days a week It would extend the session beyond all bounds' especially as after the Confederation scheme was disposed of, there would be a measure for organizing the local governments under that scheme. Hon. Mr. HOLTON-my not bring that ^ measure down with this ? Atty. Gen. MACDONALD said that they were wo different propositions, and they coiUd be only dealt with separately. If the House declared, by its_ vote, that Confederation was desirable, then it would be proper to consider the na ure of the local governn^ents ; but f it £ it fl?!; '''' ?"r'P'^ of Confederitfon then It would be entirely useless to bring up the other measure. Besides, to bring down both measures at once would make confusion worse confounded, because members would of necessity, introduce their views upon local governments into the consideration ofthe Con federation question. Hon. j. S. MACDONALD comment ed upon the declaration that the resolu tions of the Conference were tantamount to a treaty, and asked by what authority the Govemment had undertaken to negotiate a treaty. He contended that all forms of the House should be strictly observed, so that there should be no infringement upon the rights of the minority. Mr. THOMAS FERGUSON asked whe ther it was the intention of the Government to carry this measure into force without submit ting it to the people ? Atty. Gen. MACDONALD said he could answer his honorable friend at once. If this measure received the support of the House there would be no necessity of going to tho people. If, however, the measure were de feated, it, would be for the Government to consider whether there should not be an ap peal to the country. (Hear, hear, and lauo-h- ter.) Mr. SCATCHERD asked whether it was intended to make any amendments in the scheme to meet the suggestions contained in the despatch of the Colonial Secretary Atty. Gen. MACDONALD, in reply, said of course he could not answer what the policy ofthe Imperial Government might be; all he could say was this, that the represen tatives of the various colonial governments, alter this treaty had been made, agreed to go home and press upon the legislatures of their respective provinces this measure as a whole, ^j J *° present in all the colonial legislatures addresses identical in their nature to Her Majesty, asking Her to pass an Act based upon these resolutions, such address being an expression of the deliberate opinion of the colonies. It would then become the duty of the Imperial Government and Legislature to act as they pleased in the matter. He hoped and believed they would not make any altera tions m the scheme adopted by the Confer ence He was quite satisfied that if the local legislatures asked them to pass the scheme as It stood, they would leave us to be the best judges ofour own affairs and carry the mea sure through. Hon Mr. HOLTON said he had given notice the other day of three questions he in tended to put to the Government before going 17 into Committee of Supply, but as the present was an equally favorable opportunity, he trusted there would be no objection to his put ting them now. Attt. Gen. MACDONALD— No, go on. Hon. Mr. HOLTON said the first question had a reference to the subject to which the Attorney General had alluded in the course of liis remarks just now. It was, whether it was the intention of the Government to bring down their projects for local constitutions for the two sections of Canada before inviting the House to proceed with tho discussion of this question of Confederation. The honorable gentleman had already answered that question by saying it was not the intention ofthe Gov ernment to introduce this measure, and had given reasons for this course. Upon these reasons he (Hon. Mr. Holton) desired to say one word. He maintained that the question now before the House was, should they revolu tionize the country, should they revolutionize the govemment of the country? (Hear, hear.) That was undoubtedly the question, and he would like to know distinctly whether the form of the proposed new government, local as well as general, formed part of the same scheme ? He felt that the House could not be in a position to consider the proposed forms of the Constitution until they had before them, at least in a general way, the forms of government which were to obtain between the two sections of the province, of the union of which a dissolution was to be wrought by the measure before the House. Then another question which he had proposed to put had reference to the educational system of Lower Canada. The Minister of Finance, in a speech at Sherhrooke, had promised that the Gov emment would introduce a bill to amend the school laws of Lower Canada. The honorable gentleman must be aware that this was a question on which there was a great deal of feeling in this section of the province amongst the English-speaking, or the Protestant class, of the population. He did not like to introduce anything of a religious character into discus sions of this House, but in debating the great changes which it was proposed to effect in our system of government, the effect of them upon that class to which he referred must be con sidered. Among that class there was no phase or feature of these threatened changes which excited so much alarm as this very question of education. Well, the Minister or Finance had said, with great solemnity, as having the authority of his coUeagues for it, that this session the Qovenmient would bring down amendments to the school laws of Lower Can ada, which they proposed enacting into law before a change of govemment should take place, and which would become a permanent settlement of that question. The question he then desired to put was whether they intended to submit these amendments before they asked the House to pas^ finaUy upon the other scheme of Confederation, and if so, to state when the House might look for that measure, as it would undoubtedly exercise very consid erable influence upon the discussion of the Confederation scheme, and probably in the last resort from several members from Lower Can ada. (Hear, hear.) Then the third question of which he bad given notice bad reference to the Intercolonial Railway. It was a novelty that, perhaps, might not be found in the con stitution of any country, to introduce a pro vision for the construction of a railroad, canals, turnpike roads or other public works. (Laugh ter.) But the novelty existed in this case, and we are told that a part of the proposed Constitution was to build the Intercolonial Railway, as to the usefulness of which there had been a great difference of opinion amongst members of the House and in the country. After tbe dinner recess, Hon. Mr. HOLTON, continuing his re marks, said it appeared now to be proposed to make the construction of a railway part of the Constitution of the country. The President of the Council, who had formerly strongly op posed the Intercolonial Railway, had now be come so enamoured of it and its adjuncts that he was reported to have declared in a speech at Toronto, that rather than not have those adjuncts, to wit, the union of all the pro vinces, which he had also previously opposed as vigorously as the railway itself, he would consent to building six intercolonial rail ways. (Laughter.) He thought tbe House was entitled to know what was to be done with re ference to that railway before they were asked to consider the gi'eat question of which it formed a part. He desired also some infor mation as to the position of the North-West question on which the President of the Coun cil had always taken strong grounds, main taining that Canada had a territorial right extending over all that region. He took it for granted the President of the Council still maintained his position, but he wished to know from him authoritatively the manner in which the Government proposed to deal with the question. He desired, also, some information on the subject of the defences, and what was to be the measure of our eon- 18 tributions under the proposed scheme for that important object. Atty. Gen. MACDONALD said the Government would cheerfully give an answer to Hon. Mr. Holton's questions. As to the local constitutions of Upper and Lower Canada, wheu subordinate provinces of the Confedera- ation. Government proposed to submit to the House il scheme or schemes to be considered by members of Upper and Lower Canada, respecting the constitutions of their respective governments. But the action with regard to them must be the action of Parliament. That action would onlj' be asked after the Con federation scheme w.is adopted, for until it was settled that there was to be Confederation, it was idle to discuss wbat should be the con stitutions of the several provinces. As to tho school question, it had been announced by Hon. Mr. Galt, at Sherhrooke, that before Confeder ation took place, this Parliament would be asked to consider a measure which he hoped would be satisfactory to all classes of the community. There was a good deal of apprehension in Lower Canada on the part of the minority there as to the possible effect of Confederation on their rights on the subject of education, and it was the intention of the Government, if Parliament approved the scheme of Confedera tion, to lay before tbe House this session, certain amendments to the school law to operate as a sort of guarantee against any in fringement by the majority of the rights of the minority in this matter. Hon. a. A. DORION— Will it apply to both Upper and Lower Canada ? _ Atty. Gen. MACDONALD said he be lieved, as regarded Upper Canada, the matter would remain in statu quo, as the present law there was quite satisfactory to the minority. As regarded the Intercolonial Railroad, the resolutions shewed precisely what was the in tention of the Government in that matter. The railroad was not, as stated by Hon. Mr.HoLTON, a portion of the Constitution, but was one of the conditions on which the Lower Provinces agreed to enter into the constitutional agree ment with us. The North-West question he would leave in the hands of the President of the Council, who understood it thoroughly and could, no doubt, give Hon. Mr. Holton a satisfactory answer. With respect to the de fences ofthe province, they were now the sub ject of negotiations with the Imperial Govern ment, and the fullest information would be given to the House on that subject. He might mention that the Maritime Provinces, reoog- mzmg the peculiar position of Canada geogrt phically, and its danger in case of hostilities, had most cordially agreed that any sum this Parliament might vote for the defence of Ca nada, they would undertake their share of. Mr. WALLBRIDGE asked if he was to understand that a guarantee was to be given in the Constitution of the Federal Government to Roman Catholic separate schools ? Attt. Gen. MACDONALD— I only said this, that before Confederation is adopted, the Government would bring down a measure to amend the school law of Lower Canada, pro tecting the rights of the minority, and which, at the same time, I believe, would be satisfac tory to the majority, who have always hitherto shown respect for the rights of the minority, and, no doubt, wUl continue to do so. Hon. Mr. BROWN said Hon. Mr. Holton had done no injustice to him in supposing he held now precisely the same sentiments on the North-West question he formerly did. He be lieved it of vast importance that that region should be brought within the limits of civUiza- tion, and vigorous measures had been taken to ascertain what could be done with that view. It was not long since he retumed from Eng land, where the matter was very fully discussed, and he had not as yet had an opportunity of submitting tho thing so fully to the Council that a decision could be had upon it, but he had no doubt that in a very short time they would be able to communicate to the House ample information as to their intentions. The discussion was then made regular by Atty. Gen. Macdonald formaUy proposing that an Address be presented to Her Majesty. Hon. Mr. HOLTON said that the uni versal law of Parliament with respect either to bills or addresses looking to the disposal of public property or funds, or additions to the burdens of the country, was that the measure must originate in Committee of the Whole. This Confederation scheme disposed of the whole assets of the country, and established burdens which were to bo applied to the pur poses of the provinces of New Brunswick and Ncwfonndlaud, besides paying eighty cents per head of population to all the various provinces. This appropriation of property indeed ran throughout the scheme. Not only so, but the usage on all si i.ilar occasions was to introduce the measure in Committee of the Whole. The act of union between England and Ireland was originated in this way, and so was our own act of union in the legislature of Upper Canada under the management of Mr. Poulet Thompson, who was well known to be an able English parliamentarian. The 19 same course was taken on our own Reform Bill under the Hincks Government. Atty. Gen. MACDONALD said that any measure appropriating money must origi nate in Committee of the Whole, but it was otherwise with an Address to the Crown, ask ing to recommend a grant of money. This was an address asking the Crown to make a great constitutional change. Now, supposing that it was asking to have the Constitution done away with altogether, must such an ad dress originate in committee ? Clearly not. The money to be appropriated was to be granted by legislatures which did not yet exist. Hon. a. a. DORION— There is nothing more plain than that, according to the stand ing order of the House of Commons, any measure appropriating money or any Address to the Crown asking for a grant of money, or that expenses may be incurred, must origi nate in Committee of the Whole. Our own 80th rule was in a similar sense, setting forth that motions tending to grant an aid or to make any charge upon the people must origi nate in committee. Now, surely these reso lutions tended to create a charge upon the people. Among other things they bound the country to make a railway. Atty. Gen. MACDONALD— That will be made by the Confederate Govemment, not by this Govemment. We are not granting any money. Hon. a. a. DORION — Nor do you ever grant money when you ask the Crown to re commend the grant, since the Crown may re fuse ; surely if a matter involving $5 or $50 must originate in conimittee, so large a mat ter as this must do so. Atty. Gen. CARTIER spoke of Hon. Mr. Dorion's remarks as absurd, as not a farthing of money was being appropriated. It wasquitetrue the rule ofthe Imperial Parliament might seem to go as far as Hon. Mr. Dorion said, but we had no such rule. Ours was founded on the Union Act, which merely said that no appropriation could be made, except after a Message from His Excellency, which must be referred to a committee. The Union Act was our law, and to-morrow the British Parliament, with the sanction of the Queen, might abolish the Con stitution. Mr. DUNKIN— The Attorney General was the very Bayard of defenders of every little corporation which had received its charter from that legislature ; that was of every cor poration or company which enjoyed his favor, froia hone of which hef would take away the smallest part of the privileges ever conferred upon them, and yet he asserted that the whole privileges and rights of this great colony could be taken away to-morrow by the Imperial Par liament. He (Mr. Dunkin) denied that all our rights were held at pleasure, but, if they were, that had nothing to do with the matter. If we were precluded from giving away small sums of money, except in a particular way, surely we were debarred from giving away aU our rights. The British Parliament could de clare that a man is a woman, and he must thereafter legally be called a woman, but that did not make him one. Hon. Mr. GALT said clearly no charge was put on the people by this Address ; not a penny could be taken out of the public chest in consequence of it. He thought also the spirit of the rules was no more infringed than their letter, by taking the course proposed by the Attorney General West ; because, if the Address passed, the Imperial Act would refer again to the people the power of disposing of this property by their votes. Mr. SPEAKER decided as follows ;— The honorable member for Chateauguay haa submitted that the motion is not in order, " inas much as the proposed Address prays the Crown to recommend to the Imperial Parliament the passage of an Act laying new burdens on the people of this Province, aud making dispositions as to the public property and money of this Province, the law of Parliament requires that it should be founded on Resolutions originated in Committee of the whole House." Now, the 4th clause of the 14th section of the Consolidated Statutes ot Canada, " The Legislative Assembly shall not originate or pass any Vote, Resolution or Bill for the appropriation of any part of the said Consolidated Revenue Fund, or of any other tax or impost, to any purpose which has uot been first recommended by a Message of the Governor to the Legislative Assembly, during the Session iu which such Vote, Resolution or Bill is passed ;" and the 88th Rule of this House, " If any motion be made in the H ouse for any public aid or charge upon the people, the consideration and debate thereof may not be presently entered upon, but shall be adjourued till such further day as the House shall think fit to appoint ; and then it shall be referred to a Committee of the whole House before any Resolution or Vote of the House do pass thereupon," which seems to be based thereOn, refer to Resolutions or to an Address upon whioh some Tuture aqtion of this House is to be based. I fail to see in this motion that the action of this House is to be involved any further after passing this Resolution. As this matter was discussed" before I left the chair, at six o'clock, I took occasion to put in writing my opinion upon the subject. I will read: "The motion is for an Address to Her Majesty, in which 20 ihe Resolutions on Confederation of the Provinces are set out. How does this differ from an Address raoved to His Excellency, which always comes on raotion upon a two days' notice given as in this case ? I cannot see how, as a point of Order, I can treat the matter other than as in the ordinary citse of an A.ddress. The argument is that it will be inconvenient so to discuss it. That is not addressed to a question of Order, but to one of convenience. 'The case cited by the honorable member for Chateauu'uay of Resolutions upon the question of a, Bill for the Government of India was not one of Resolutions for an Address, liut of Resolutions simply, containing- the pro poaed principles of the Bill i,iteiided to be intro duced. It is not pretended here that this House has any rij;ht to paas such a Bill, or that it is intended to present one on that subject here. The reasons why it is convenient to discuss matters in the foi-ni of a Resolution on which a Bill is after wards to be introduced, is that Resolutions more easily admit of alteration. The Government have expressed their determination not to admit of any alterations in these Resolutions. Thus it is obvious that the same reasons for going into Committee do not hold. The member who moves an Address can force the vote on his motion in the manner he haa put it, unless the form of it be changed by amendment, and thia appears to be the only course open here. In truth the word 'Resolutions' might very well have been omitted altogether from this motion. Whatever miirht have been the result on a mere question of convenience, it ia certain that the Speaker does not decide that matter. His duties are to preserve order and decorum, and to decide questions of Order." Atty. Gen. MACDONALD moved that the debate be adjourned and made the first order for Monday after half-past seven o'clock, p.m. Hon. Mr. HOLTON raised the objection that this motion could not be put without two days' notice Atty. Gen. MACDONALD said if this was the sort of tactics to be pursued, and an attempt made to embarrass the Govemment at every step, he must withdraw the conces sion made to the member for Peel, and would give notice that he would move on Tuesday, that the debate be continU' d from day to day until the Address was finally adopted or rejected by the House. After some discussion, .Hon. Mr. Holton withdrew his objection, ancl Atty. Gen. MaOdonald his notice. LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Monday, Februa/ry 6, 1865. Hon. Mr. CAMPBELL said that, with the permission of the honorixble member who had the floor (Hon. Mr. Currie), he would offer a few remarks upon one portion of the scheme of Confederation, to which allusion had been specially made in the House, and which, to a limited extent, had occupied the attention of the country. He referred to the proposed constitution of the Legislative Coun cU under that scheme ; and in offering the reasons which had led the Canadian Govern ment and the otber members of the Confer ence, which, as honorable members knew, wa« composed of the leading men in the legisla tures of tho several provinces — the leading men in opposition as well as the leading men in office — to decide as they had done, he begged the House to believe that the decision had not been arrived at hastily, but after prolonged and anxious discussion, and after a full and careful consideration of the subject. It was not to be supposed that the Govemment of Ca,nada had itself laid down the scheme of the constitution as embraced in the resolutions on the table of the House. Honorable gentle men must not misunderstand him. He did not mean to say that the Govemment did not heartily concur in and adopt the scheme, but that it was not its work alone, but that of the delegates from the other provinces as well. It was the result of deliberation, accommo dation and compromise. When it became necessary for the Govemment to press the resolutions, he trusted honorable members would not suppose that they did so out ^ of that love which people have for the creation of their own intellect, but would remember tbey were the joint production of the gentle men to whom he aUuded, and that any per tinacity on his part arose from a sense of the sacrifices they had made to secure an E^ree- ment, and the difficulties which any failure now would create. He felt it had been im possible for the Conference to arrive at any other understanding, and he only wished that those who looked with disfavor uptm their plan, could have witnessed the auxious debates held at Charlottetown and Quebec before it was finally settled. The result arrived at would, he hoped, promote the welfare of the provinces interested, and be remembered with gratitude by their inhabitants many long years hence (And supposing this Chamber and the other^were to,oome to a different opinion 21 and reject the resolutions, what would be the effect ? The sacrifices and com promises submitted to by the representa tives of the several provinces would go for nothing ; the efforts of the eminent men who had put aside personal and party differences to accomplish what they deemed a great and good work would be futile ; and yet, by such men only could such a scheme have been devised and matured. Considering then the earnest efforts made to secure this agreement, and the improbability that, if rejected, any other could be attempted with better hope of success, he felt he had aright to ask the House to give the subject a fair, patient, and favor able consideration. If an amendment were proposed here, and another there, and espe cially if the provision respecting the constitu tion of the House were changed, it was pretty certain that the whole thing would miscarry, for he well knew that in respect of this point the legislatures of the Lower Provinces would come to a different conclusion. If the elective principle were insisted upon in Canada, and its Government bound over to maintain it, even though another Conference were called, no agreement could be expected, for as he had already said, the delegates from the other provinces would be sure to be charged with exactly different instructions. And as of this particular point, so of a hundred others, until it would be utterly impossible again to arrive at anything like unanimity. As the honorable member for Brock had so well said on a previous evening, any failure now would be extremely damaging to our credit abroad. It was well kown that the fact of our public men having throvni aside their political partizanship for the purpose of advancing the welfare of the country, the holding of the Conference, and the agreement secured, had already done us a great deal of good at home. But not only would this first fruit of the work be forfeited, but an injury more than correspond ingly great would follow. (Hear, hear.) [The honorable member elaborated this idea at some length with the view of showing the beneficial effect the adoption of the scheme of Confed eration had produced, and the disasterous consequences which its rejection by Parlij- ment must inevitably entail.] He did not propose to follow his honorable friend the Premier in the discussion of the merits of the project as a whole ; the able manner in which that honorable member had presented it could not but have commended itself to every can did mind. (Hear, hear.) He (Hon. Mr. Camp bell) would, however, take up the point to which he had alluded at the commencement, and from which he had for a moment digressed. and give the reasons whieh had induced the Conference to determine as they had done, upon the constitution of the Upper House. And the main reason was to give each of the provinces adequate security for tho protection of its local interests, a protection which it was feared might not be found in a House where the representation was based upon num bers only, as would be the case in the General Assembly. The number of representatives to the Legislative Council under the Federal constitution would be limited, and they would be appointed for Ufe instead of elected by the people. For the purpose of securing equality in that House, the Confederation would be divided into two sections, viz. : Upper Canada, Lower Canada, and the Maritime Provinces, and each of these sections would send twenty- four members to the House. In Upper Ca^- nada, as had been stated lately by an honor able member, the population has increased very rapidly, and would probably go on in creasing in a much larger ratio taan that of Lower Canada or the other provi'ices, and if the Legislative Council were elective, the time might come when the people of that section would fancy themselve entitled to an increased representation in the Council, and commerce to agitate for it. They might object to the fishing bounties paid the Lower Province, to the money expended there in forti fications, or to sometliing else, and claim a representation in the Council, more in accordance with their population to enforce their views ; and in view of such contingencies the delegates from those provinces conceived it would not be safe to trust their rights to an elective House. It was then determined that in one branch there would be a fixed number of members nominated by the Crown, to enable it to act as a counterpoise to the branch in which the principle of representation accord ing to population would be recognized. It might be said that the principio of limita tion of numbers could have been adopted, and that of election preserved. Well, he did not say the scheme was perfect, but it was the best that could be devised, and an the Lower Provinces felt the danger from their inferiority of numbers, being only 800,000 ag linst double tbat number in Upper Canada alone, it was essential that the security which a fixed repre sentation in the Council afforded to them should be acceded to. The Conffrence acted upon the conviction that they weie not build ing a structure for a temporary pui-pose, but, 22 aa they hoped, for centuries, and knowing how the doctrine of representation according to population had operated in distracting the popular branch of the Legislature in Canada, they endeavored to provide against a similarly disturbing cause in the Confederation. And their precaution appeared to him to be founded in wisdom and justice. For the sake of argu ment let it be supposed that the elective prin ciple is maintained, and that the limit of numbers now proposed, viz., 24 members for each of the three grand sections in the Council is also fixed ; let it be supposed further, that the population of Upper Canada continues to augment as in the past, what may not be that of the Saugeen, Tecumseth and Eastern Divi sions (which now have 130,000, 90,000 and 60,000 respectively) forty or fifty years hence ? And is it not possible, nay, would it not be like ly, that these great constituences, when compar ing them with the divisions in Prince Edward Island, numbering some twenty thousand to twenty-five thousand souls, would be disposed to set up claims for additional representation ? Who that looks to the future will say that with an elective Upper House the Constitution will last? It was the apprehension of danger to ite permanency that decided the Conference to adopt the principle of nomination to the superior branch, and it was the only way which suggested itself for averting it. And he must say for himself, that he fully and entirely concurred in the decision. He felt that the principle of election kept alive a germ of doubt as to the security of the Lower Pro vinces, and he was glad that a way was found of removing it altogether. It was well known that even in the United States, where there was so prevalent a disposition to submit everything to the decision of the people, the principle of limitation to the Upper House was so fuUy recognized and settled by the l.^onstitution, that no attempt was ever made to change it. In this way the smaUest state, like Rhode Island, was as fully represented as the state of New York. And if that was considered necessary in a country so compact together as the United States, how much more would it not be proper in a Confedera tion, some of the sections of wbich were sepa rated from each other by long, narrow strips of land, or wide estuaries, with small repre sentation in the popular branch, and looking chiefly to their equality in the Upper Chamber for security fbr local rights and interests and institutions. He was gratified, upon another ground, that this decision bad been attained, and this was on the ground of the respect he | bore to the life-members of this Chamber. In the law which had made the House elective there was no wiser provision than that Which had guaranteed the seat of the members ap- pointed by the Crown, who then composed it. He had always felt the great advantage of the presence of those honorable members here. If the elective system had entirely superseded the nominated House, removed those gentle men and brought together forty-eight entirely new members, the country would have suffered a grievous loss ; but the old members kept their places and the new ones came in twelve at a time, two years apart, so that the chaise from one system to the other was effected vnthout any injury. The nominated members had retained their influence, and the tone of calmness and gravity which had obtained in their deliberations was insensibly acquired by the elective members as they came in, to the manifest advantage of the House. We (speaking of the elected members) had picked up the spirit of, and the instruction the Crown members were so fully competent to give us, and so had been enabled to discharge our duties in a way we could not possibly have done if had we been left to ourselves. If the life-members had been deprived of theu seats, it was not probable that many, if any of them, would have sought a restoration to them by the elective process, for they were generally gentlemen of wealth, position, and delicacy of feeling, whose habite of mutual deference, quietness and order, would have unfitted them, or made them averse to face the turmoil and excitement of the unfavorable electioneering contests. These honorable gentlemen, under an elective system, must have been deprived of their seats, and their services have been lost to the country ; whUst under the nominative system they wUl stand on the same footing as tbe other members of this House, and have a fair representation along with the members holding their seats by election in tbe Legislative CouncU of the Confederate Parliam'ent. (Hear, hear.) Pass ing on to another point, he would remark that some persons had asked what would be done if the two Chambers of the Confederation came into collision ? He had already re- niarked that the Legislative CouncU was intended as a counterpoise to the weight of numbers m the Assembly, but such a counterpoise did not necessarily imply the probability of collision. It was not likely that utn m?;'"'^v ^""^"^ '"""^ ''""'^ ^^'^h coUision upon minor subjecte, or subjects of minor im portance, for two such bodies shoul? not for 23 the mere sake of resistance, oppose each other in such a way ; they would not venture to do it. He did not remember that there had been any really difficult matter of this kind for a long time. This House had rejected the Squatters' BiU, as it was called, seven or eight times after it had been passed by the Assem bly, but that had not impaired the good un derstanding between them. Indeed the effect had been of the best. The hon. life-member from Cobouig [Hon. Mr. Boulton], whom he did not see in his place, had, by the force of reasoning, convinced the House that the bUl was destructive of the rights of property, and the consequence was that, year by year, the measure had been pruned of its most of fensive features, untU now, as he was informed, it was hardly open to objection. He could not recall another instance of persistent difference of opinion between the Chambers. The real danger of collision would be where one Cham ber invaded the prerogatives of the other, and that danger, if it existed at all, would be great ly increased were the Legislative Council made elective. (Hear, hear.) If the members were elected they might say, " We come from the people just as directly as the members of the Assembly do, and our authority is, therefore, as fuU and complete as theirs. Nay,more,for where we each represent 1000 electors, they only each represent 300, and we have, therefore, as much right to initiate money biUs and impost bills as they have." Make the CouncU purely elective, and he would not promise that an agitation of this kind would not spring up. It had not been a theme as yet on the floor of the House, but it was well known that it had been freely discussed in th" corridors, and if the subject had not been formally introduced, it was probably because it was thought by those who debated it that they could not rely upon the life-members, (ticar, hear.) Let the Council propose to deal with taxation and the elective system would be sure in the course of time to urge it on to do so, and im mediately the spirit of the Assembly would be aroused to resistance. This would be the way to provoke coUisions, and with an elective CouncU it was not unlikely at aU to be resortr ed to. In England, where the Upper House was composed of a class entirely distinct from the Commons, and having interests, as a general thing, diverse from those of the peo ple, even there the collisions between the two branches had been but infrequent. Indeed there had been only one very serious collision in the course of centuries. When, howcvei, such conjunctures arose, the crown overcame tbem by the appointment of a sufficient num ber of peers whose political views accorded with those of the government. The right to sit in the House of Lords being, however, hereditary, the son generaUy inherited the politics of his father, and so tho character of the body was always pretty well utiderstoo 1 ; but be it what it might, and as much as possible removed from popular influences, it had yet learno'! so far to respect tho will of the people as to know when to make concession of its own opinions He did not say that it bowed to every breeze and instantly yielded to every demand, nor did he think that any Legislative Upper Chamber should do so, and be content merely to reflect the temper and complexion of the other branch. On the con trary, he held that when it had good and sufficient evidence, sufficient to satisfy itself that a proposed measure was unjust, it was bound to resist, and public opinion whioh generally came out right in the end, woidd sustain it in such an attitude. But there was very much less danger in countries like thia that difference of opinion would even be aa frequent between the L^islative Chambers aa between tbe Lords and Commons in England. and the reason was clear : our Legislative Councillors would not come from so different a class of society to the general population, aa the peers of the British nation, compared with the people of that nation. The lords had ideas of caste and privileges which none of our people were imbrued with, and the common sympathy existing between all classes here would be felt equally by the Legislative CouncUlors and the Members of the Assembly. Both would be equally subjected to popular influences and be more or less controlled by them. The interests of the Legislative Coun- cUlor, though a nominee of the Crown, would be the same as those of the mass, and the legislation which would be good for them would, as a general thing, be good for him too. He would have no ancestral estates, privileges, immunities and titles to protect, like the peers of England. He would be affected by the social changes which affected others, and would be moved by the same aims and aspirations as his friends around him. This being the case, it was not very probable that his opinions would even be set in opposi tion to those of other men as to make it likely that he would come in collision with them, or that, as a House, the Council would be in danger of a serious quarrel with the Assembly. Then the changes which time would inevitably briu^ about in a body like the proposed Legi»- 24 lative CouncU, would be sufficiently great to prevent the possibility of a continued antagon ism between it and the other branch, if unhap pily it should arise. The demise, the resigna tion and tbe loss of seat from other causes, would do this, and afford the Govemment of the day the opportunity of so reconstructing the House as to bring it more in harmony with public sentiment. He did not say it was desirable that at all times the Legislative Council should be a reflection of such opinion, though it was, of course, desirable that it should not continue violently to shock it. He would have that House conservative, calm, considerate and watchful, to prevent the enact ment of measures which, in ite deliberate judg ment, were not calculated to advance the com mon weal. Any more rapid changes in the composition of the House than those he now indicated, he did not consider wholesome or desirable. From the history of the present Chamber for the last few years, it would be seen that such changes, whether among the life members or the elected members, were much more frequent than might be generally supposed. According to the present elective system twelve members went out and twelve came in every second year. Supposing that a collision had taken place between the two branches of the Legislature, and that it was de sirable to bring the Council more in accord with the representatives of the people, under this system, the same members might be returned, not because of the soundness of their political opinions on the topic which had brought about the coUision, perhaps without the slightest reference to it, but from their position and their exertions. One might come back be cause he wts a, wealthy man and had a social position which gave him a large influence, another because he was an able canvasser and well versed in election tactics, and others from causes equ^dly removed from the political question upon which the two Houses of Par liament were in antagonism. But suppose the twelve seats were at the disposal of the Government, and that an irreconcilable differ ence had existed between the two Houses, would they not have the opportunity of re dress at onte and thoroughly by bringing in twelve members who would harmonize better in opinion with them and the country ? Undoubtedly. Well, within eight years the changes amcmg the life-members had been as follows :• — When the House was made elective, there were 40 .such members in it; two years afterwardt , at the call of the House, the num ber was found reduced to 31 ; two yearg after that again to 26 ; in two years more, to 24 ; and to-day to 21, of whioh 21, one honorable member was now seriously indisposed. In eight years, then, the number had been dimin ished by half. Then changes nearly as great had occurred among the elected members. There had been 24 removals and changes by death and otherwise among these 48 ; and it should be remembered, that as the elected members came in by twelves, two years apart, the aver age time had been only four years. This was sufficient to show the opportunity which, even among younger men than the life-members, the Government would have of keeping the House in accord with the true interests of the country, or of overcoming any unfortunate misunderstanding between the two branchea. [The honorable member here went minutely into a statement of the changes effected by death, acceptance of office, and defeat at elections, among this class of members, which, however, we do not deem it neces sary to specify.] These changes had cer tainly altered, to some extent, the com plexion of the House, and the future would, no doubt, be like the past in this respect. The Conference had taken all these things into consideration, and wisely concluded, as he beUeved, that while the chances of collision were much less under the nominative system, the opportunity of restoring harmonious action was infinitely more prompt and effec tive, and that there was no such danger of coUisons between the two branches of the General Legislature, as to make it a bar to the principle of nomination, which principle, in their judgment, offered the compensating advantage he had endeavored, in the earlier part of his observations, to point out. He sincerely hoped the House would concur in the views he had expressed, and would accept the measure now before them, as one whieh he believed calculated to promote the best interests of this country and the other pro vinces, and to hand down to posterity a con stitution analogous, as nearly as might be, to that of the empire under whose protection we had the happiness to live — a Constitution cal culated further, as he was fuUy convinced, to perpetuate the connection between these colo nies and that mighty nation, to the mutual benefit of both. (Hear, hear, and applause.) Hon. Mr. VIDAL hero inquired from the honorable member why it was that the selection of Legislative Councillors from Lower Canada, in the Confederation scheme, was to be left to the Local Government of that section of the province, while no such provision existed with a9 respect to Upper Canada or the Lower Pro vinces. Hon. Mr. CAMPBELL said it was out of deference to the interests of the British Cana dians of Lower Canada, who had some fear that they might not be sufficiently protected otherwise. Hon. Mr. RYAN objected to this mode of selection, as calculated to perpetuate differences of nationality and creed, and thought it would be better to leave the selection unconditionally to the Crown. [After this a number of questions were put to Hon. Mr. Campbell upon various points of detaU, and a cross fire was kept up from both sides ofthe House, which made it next to impossible to keep track of the proceedings. Among the questions asked was one as to whether the local govemments should be con stituted before the Constitution of the Confe deration became law. The resolution concem- ino' this point seemed involved and contradic tory, as it supposed some part of the plan to be in force, which depended upon the action of local governments not themselves in exist ence.] Hon. Mr. CAMPBELL promised to give an explanation at the next sitting ofthe House. Hon. Mr. SANBORN then addressed the House for a few minutes, it being then nearly sis o'clock. He did not declare himself directly opposed to the scheme as a whole, but believed that the abandonment of the elective principle in respect of the Legislative CouncU was a step backward and an unwise one. He quoted as a proof the opinion of the Premier of the Government expressed two years ago, and thought it not a little strange he should so readUy have changed his views — Cries of six o'clock. Further debate was then postponed untU the morrow, and the House immediately afterwards adjourned. LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY. Monday, February 6, 1865. Attorney General MACDONALD moved, " That an humble Address be pre sented to Her Majesty, praying that She may be graciously pleased to cause a meas ure to be submitted to the Imperial Parlia ment, forthe purpose of uniting the Colonies of Canada, Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, Newfoundland, and Prince Edward Island, 5 in one Government, with provisions based on certain Resolutions, which were adopted at a Conference of Delegates from the said Colonies, held at the city of Quebec, on the 10th October, 1864."* He said: — Mr. Speaker, in fulfilment of the promise made by the Government to Parliament at its last session, I have moved this resolution. I have had the honor of being charged, on behalf of the Government, to submit a scheme for the Confederation of all the British North American Provinces — a scheme which has been received, I am glad to say, with general, if not universal, approbation in Canada. The scheme, as propounded through the press, has received almost no opposition. While there may be occasionally, here and there, expressions of dissent from some of the details, yet the scheme as a whole has met with almost universal approval, and. the Government has the greatest satisfaction in presenting it to this House. This subject, which now absorbs the attention of the peo ple of Canada, and of the whole of British North America, is not a new one. For years it has more or less attracted the attention of every statesman and politician in these prov inces, and has been looked upon by many far-seeing politicians as being eventually the means of decidiug and settling very many of the vexed questions which have retarded the prosperity of the colonies as a whole, and particularly the prosperity of Canada. The subject was pressed upon the public at tention by a great many writers and politi cians ; but I believe the attention of the Legislature was first formally called to it by my honorable friend the Minister of Finance. Some years ago, in an elaborate speech, my hon. friend, while an independent member of Parliament, before being connected with any Government, pressed his views on the Legislature at great length and with his usual force. But the subject was not taken up by any party as a branch of their policy, until the formation of the Cartier-Mac- DONALD Administration in 1858, when the Confederation of the colonies was announced as one of the measures which they pledged themselves to attempt, if possible, to bring to a satisfactory conclusion. In pursuance ofthat promise, the letter or despatch, which has been so much and so freely commented upon in the press and in this Ilouse, was addressed by three of the members of that Administration to the Colonial Office. The * For Resolii tions, see Legislative Council, page 1, 26 subject, however, though looked upon with favor by the country, and though there were no distinct expressions of opposition to it from any party, did not begin to assume its present proportions until last session. Then, men of all parties and all shades of politics became alarmed at the aspect of affairs. They found that such was the opposition between the two sections of the province, such was the danger of impending anarchy, in consequence of the irreconcilable differ ences of opinion, with respect to representa tion by population, between Upper and Lower Canada, tbat unless some solution of the difficulty was arrived at, we would suffer under a succession of weak governments, — weak in numerical support, weak in force, and weak in power of doing good. All were alarmed at this state of affairs. We had election after election, — we had ministry after ministry, — with the same result. Par ties were so equally balanced, that the vote of one member might decide the fate ofthe Administration, and the course of legislation for a year or a series of years. This con dition of things was well calculated to arouse the earnest consideration of every lover of his country, and I am happy to say it had that effect. None were more impressed by this momentous state of affairs, and the grave apprehensions that existed of a state of anarchy destroying our credit, destroying our prosperity, destroying our progress, than were the members of this present House ; and the leading statesmen on both sides seemed to have come to the common con clusion, that some step must be taken to re lieve the country from the dead-lock and impending anarchy that hung over us. — With that view, my colleague, the Presi dent of the Council, made a motion founded on the despatch addressed to the Colonial Minister, to which I have referred, and a committee was struck, composed of gentlemen of both sides of the House, of all shades of political opinion, without any reference to whether they were supporters ofthe Admin istration of tb e day or belonged to the Opposi tion, for the purpose of taking into calm and full deliberation the evils which threatened the future of Canada. That motion of my honorable friend resulted most happily. The committee, by a wise provision, — and in order that each member of the committee might have an opportunity of expressing his opinions without being in any way compro mised before the public, or with his parly, in regard either to his poUtical friends or to his poUtical foes, — agreed that the discussion should be freely entered upon without refer ence to the poUtical antecedents of any of them, and that they should sit with closed doors, so that they might be able to approach the subject frankly and in a spirit of compro mise. The committee included most of the leading members of the House, — I had the honor myself to be one of the number, — and the result was that there was found an ardent desire — a creditable desire, I must say, — dis played by all the members of the committee to approach the subject honestly, and to at tempt to work out some solution which might relieve Canada from the evils under which she labored. The report of that committee was laid before the House, and then came the political action of the leading men of the two parties in this House, which ended in the formation of the'present Government. The principle upon which that Government was formed has been announced, and is known to all. It was formed for the very purpose of carrying out the object which has now re ceived to a certain degree its completion, by the resolutions I have had the honor to place in your hands. As has been stated, it was not without a great deal of difficulty and reluct ance that that Government was formed. The gentlemen who compose this Government had for many years been engaged in political hos tilities to such an extent that it affected even their social relations. But the crisis was great, the danger was imminent, andthe gen tlemen who now form the present Adminis tration found it to be their duty to lay aside all personal feelings, to sacrifice in some degree their position, and even to run the risk of having their motives impugned, for the sake of arriving at some conclusion that would be satisfactory to the country in general. The present resolutions were the result. And, as I said before, I am proud to believe that the country has sanctioned, as I trust that the re presentatives ofthe people in this House will sanction, the schemo which is now submitted for the future government of British North America. (Cheers.) Everything seemed to favor the project, and everything seemed to shew that the present was the time, if ever, when this great union between all Her Majes ty's subjects dwelling in British North Amer ica, should be carried out. (Hear, hear.) When the Government was termed, it was felt that the difficulties in tho way of effecting a union between aU the British North Amer- £7 ican Colonies were great — so great as almost, in the opinion of many, to make it hopeless. And with that view it was the policy of the Government,if they could not succeed in pro curing a union between all the British North American Colonies, to attempt to free the country from the dead-lock in which we were placed in Upper and Lower Canada, in conse quence of the difference of opinion between the two sections, by having a severance to a certain extent of the present union between the two provinces of Upper and Lower Can ada, and the substitution of a Federal Union between them. Most of us, however, I may say, allof U8,were agreed — and I believe every thinking man will agree — as to the expedi ency of effecting a union between all the pro vinces, and the superiority of such a design, if it were only practicable, over the smaller scheme of having a Federal Union between Upper and Lower Canada alone. By a happy concurrence of events, the time came when that proposition could be made with a hope of success. By a fortunate coincidence the de sire for union existed in the Lower Provinces, and a feeling ofthe necessity of strengthening themselves by collecting together tho scat tered colonies on the sea-board, had induced them tb form a convention of their own for the purpose of effecting a union of the Mari time Provinces of Nova Scotia, New Bruns wick, and Prince Edward Island, the legisla tures ofthose colonies having formally autho rized their respective governments to send a delegation to Prince Edward Island for the purpose of attempting to form a union of some kind. Whether the union should be federal or legislative was not then indicated, but a union of some kind was sought for the pur pose of making of themselves one people in stead of three. We, ascertaining that they were about to take such a step, and knowing that if we allowed the occasion to pass, if they did indeed break up all their present political organizations and form a new one, it could not be expected that they would again readily destroy the new organization which they had formed, — the union ofthe three provinces on the sea-board, — and form another with Can ada. Knowing this, we availed ourselves of the opportunity, and asked if thoy would^re- ceive a deputation from Canada, who would go to meet them at Charlottetown, for the purpose of laying before them the advantages of a larger and more extensive union, by the junction of all the provinces in one great gov ernment under our common Sovereign. They at once kindly consented to receive and hear us. They did receive us cordially and gener ously, and asked us to lay our views before them. We did so at some length, and so sat isfactory to them were the reasons we gave ; so clearly, in their opinion, did we shew the ad vantages of the greater union over the lesser, that they at once set aside their own project, and joined heart and hand with us in entering into the larger scheme, and trying to form, as far as they and we could, a great nation and a strong government. (Cheers.) Encouraged by this arrangement, which, however, was al together unofficial and unauthorized, we re turned to Quebec, and then the Government of Canada invited the several governments of the sister colonies to send a deputation here from each of them for the purpose of consid ering the question, with something like au thority from their respective governments. The resultwas, that when we met here ou the 10th of October, on the first day on which we assembled, after the full and free discussions which had taken place at Charlottetown, the first resolution now before this House was passed unanimously, being received with ac clamation as, in the opinion of every one who heard it, a proposition which ought to receive, and would receive, the sanction of each gov ernment and each people. The resolution is, " That the best interests aud present and fu ture prosperity of British North America will be promoted by a Federal Union under the Grown of Great Britain, provided such union can be effected on principles just to the several provinces." It seemed to all the statesmen assembled — and there are great statesmen in the Lower Provinces, men who would do honor to any government and to any legislature of any free country enjoying re presentative institutions — it was cle ar to them all that the best interests and present and fu ture prosperity of British North America would be promoted by a Federal Union under the Crown of Great Britain. And it seems to me, as to them, and I think it will so appear to the people of this country, that, if we wish to be a great people ; if we wish to form — using the expression which was sneered at the other evening — a great nationality, commanding the respect of the world, able to hold our own against all opponents, and to defend those institutions we prize : if we wish to have one system of government, and to establish a com mercial union, with unrestricted free trade, between people of the five provinces, belong ing, as thej do, to the same nation, obeying 28 the same Sovereign, owning the same ^alle giance, and being, for the most part, of the same blood and lineage : if we wish to be able to afford to each other the means of mutual defence and support against aggression and attack — this can only be obtained by a union of some kind between the scattered and weak boundaries composing the British North American Provinces. (Cheers). The very mention of the scheme is fitted to bring with it its own approbation. Supposing that in the spring ofthe year 1865, half a million of people were coming from the United Kingdom to make Canada their home, although they brought only their strong arms and willing hearts ; though they brought neither skill nor experience nor wealth, would we not receive them with open arms, and hail their presence iu Canada as an important addition to our strength? Butwhen, by the proposed union, wc not only get nearly a million of people to join us — when they contribute not only their numbers, their physical strength, and their desire to benefit their position, but wheu we know that they consist of old-established com munities, having a large amount of realized wealth, — composed of people possessed of skill, education and experience in the ways of the New World — people who are as much Canadians, I may say, as we are — people who are imbued with the same feelings of loyalty io the Queen, nnd the same desire for the continuance of the connection with the Mother Country as we are, and at the same time, have a liko feeling of ardent at tachment for this, our cumiuon country, for which they and wc would alike fight and shed our blood, if necessary. When all this is considered, argument is needless to prove the advantage of such a union. (Hear, hear.) There were only three modes, — if I may re turn for a moment to the difficulties with which Canada was surrounded, — only three modes that were at all suggested, by which the dead lock in our affairs, the anarchy we dreaded, and the evi's which retarded our prosperity, could be met or averted. One was the dissolution of the union between Upper and Lower Canada, leaving thom as they were before the union of 1811. I believe that that proposition, by itself had no supporters. It was felt by every one that, although it was a course that would do away with the sectional difficulties which existed,— though it would remove the pressure on the part of the people of Upper Canada for the representation based upon population,— and the jealousy of the people of Lower Canada lest their institutions should be attacked and prejudiced by that principle in our representation ; yet it was felt by every thinking man in the province that it would be a retrograde step, which would throw back the country to nearly the same position as it occupied before the union, — that it would lower the credit enjoyed by United Canada, — that it would be the break ing up of the connection which had existed for nearly a quarter of a century, and, under which, although it had not been completely successful, and had not allayed altogether the local jealousies that had their root in circum stances which arose before the union, our province, as a whole, had nevertheless pros pered and increased. It was felt that a dis solution of the union would have destroyed all the credit that we had gained by being a united province, and would have left us two weak and ineffective governments, instead of one powerful and united people. (Hear, hear.) The next mode suggested, was the granting of representation by population. Now, we all know the manner in which that question was and is regarded by Lower Canada; that whUe in Upper Canada the desire and cry for it was daily augmenting, the resistance to it in Lower Canada was pro- portionably increasing in strength. Still, if some such means of relieving us from the sectional jealousies which existed between the two Canadas, if some such solution of the difficulties as Confederation had not been found, the representation by population must eventually have been carried ; no matter though it might have been felt iu j^ower Canada, as being a breach of tho Treaty of Union, no matter how much it might have been felt by the Lower Canadians that it would sacrifice their local interests, it is cer tain that in the progress of events represen tation by population would have been car ried ; and, had it been carried — I speak here my own individual sentiments — I do not think it would have been for the inter est of Upper Canada. For though Upper Canada would have felt that it had received what it claimed as a right, and had succeed in^ establishing its light, yet it would have left the Lower Province with a sullen feel ing of injury and injustice. The Lower Canadians would not have worked cheer fully under such a change of system, but would have ceased to be what they are now — a nationality, with rcpreseiitatives 29 inParliament, governed by general principles, and dividing according to their political opin ions — and would have been in great danger of becoming a faction, forgetful of national obligations, and only actuated by a desire to defend their own sectional interests, their own laws, and their own institutions. (Hear,hear.) Tho third and only means of solution for our difficulties was the junction ofthe provinces either in a Federal or a Legislative Union. Now, as regards the comparative advantages of a Legislative and a Federal Union, I have never hesitated to stete my own opinions. I have again and again stated in the House, that, if practicable, I thought a Legislative Union would be preferable. (Hear, hear.) I have always contended that if we could agree to have one government and one par liament, legislating for the whole of these peoples, it would be the best, the cheapest, the most vigorous, and the strongest system of government we could adopt. (Hear, hear.) But, on looking at the subject in the Con ference, and discussing the matter as we did, most unreservedly, and with a desire to ar rive at a satisfactory conclusion, we found that such a system was impracticable. In the first place, it would not meet the assent of the people of Lower Canada, because they felt that in their peculiar position — being in a minority, with a different language, nationality and religion from the majority, — in case of a junction with the other pro vinces, their institutions and their laws might be assailed, and their ancestral asso ciations, on which they prided themselves, attacked and prejudiced ; it was found that any proposition which involved the absorp tion of the individuality of Lower Canada — if I may use the expression — would not be received with favor by her people. We found too, that though their people speak the same language and enjoy the same sys tem of law as the people of Upper Canada, a system founded on the common-law of Eng land, there was as great a disinclination on the part of the various Maritime Provinces to lose their individuality, as separate political organizations, as we observed in the case of Ijower Canada herself. (Hear, hear.) There fore, we were forced to the conclusion that we must either abandon the idea of Union altogether, or devise a system of union in which the separate provincial organizations would be in some degree preserved. So that those who were, like myself, in favor of a Legislative Union, were obliged to modify their views and accept the project of a Federal Union as the only scheme prac ticable, even for the Maritime Provinces. Because, although the law of those prov inces is founded on the common law of England, yet every ono of them has a large amount of law of its own — colonial law framed by itself, and affecting every relation of life, such as the laws of property, muni cipal and assessment laws ; laws relating to the liberty of the subject, and to all the great interests contemplated in legislation ; we found, in short, that the statutory law of the different provinces was so varied and diversified that it was almost impossible to weld them into a Legislative Union at once. Why, sir, if you only consider the innumer able subjects of legislation peculiar to new countries, and that every one of those five colonies had particular laws of its own, to which its people have been accustomed and are attached, you will see the difficulty of effecting and working a Legislative Union, and bringing about an assimilation of the local as well as general laws of the whole of the provinces. (Hear, hear.) We in Upper Canada understand from the nature and operation of our peculiar municipal law, of which we know the value, the diffi culty of framing a general system of legisla tion on local matters which would meet the wishes and fulfil the requirements of the sev eral provinces. Even the laws considered the least important, respecting private rights in timber, roads, fencing, and innumerable otber matters, small in themselves, but in the ag gregate of great interest to the agricultural class, who form the great body ofthe people, are regarded as of great value by the portion of the community affected by them. And when we consider that every one of the colonies has a body of law of this kind, and that it will take years before those laws can be assimilated, it was felt that at first, at all events, any united legislation would be almost impossible. I am happy to state — and indeed it appears on the face of the resolutions them selves — that as regards the Lower Pro vinces, a great desire was evinced for the final assimilation of our laws. One of the re solutions provides that an attempt shall be made to assimilate the laws of the Maritime Provinces and those of" Upper Canada, for the purpose of eventually estab lishing one body of statutory law, founded on the common law of England, the parent of the laws of all those provinces. One great ob- 30 jectionmade to a Federal Union was the ex pense of an increased number of legislatures. I will not enter at any length into that sub ject, because my honorable friends, the Fi nance Minister and the President of the Council, who are infinitely more competent than myself to deal with matters of this kind — matters of account — will, I think, be able to show that the expenses under a Federal Union will not be greater than those under the exist ing system of separate governments and legis latures. Here,where we have a j oint legislature for Upper and Lower Canada, which deals not only with subjects ofa general interest com mon to all Canada, but with all matters of pri vate right and of sectional interest, and with that class of measures known as "private bills," we find that one of the greatest sources of expense to the country is the cost of legislation. We find, from the admix ture of subjects of a general, with those of a private character in legislation, that they mutually interfere with each other ; whereas, if the attention of the Legislature was confined to measures of one kind or the other alone, the session of Parliament would uot be so protracted and therefore not so expensive as at present. In the proposed Constitution all matters of general interest are to be dealt with by the General Le gislature ; while the local legi,5latures will deal with matters of local interest, which do not affect the Confederation as a whole, but are of the greatest importance to their particular sections. By such a division of labor the sittings of the General Le gislature would not be so protracted' as even those of Canada alone. And so with the local legislatures, their attention being con fined to subjects pertaining to their own sections, their sessions would be shorter and less expensive. Then, when we consider the enormous saving that will be effected in the administration of affairs by one General Government — when we reflect that each of the five colonies have a government of its own with a sjomplete establishment of public depart H3nts and all the machinery required for t e transaction of the busi- ajss of the country — that each have a separ ate executive, judicial and militia system — that each province has a separate min istry, including a Minister of Militia, with a complete Adjutant General's Department — that each have a Finance Minister] with a full Customs and Excise staff — that each Colony has as large and complete an adminis trative organization, with as many Executive officers as the General Government will have — we can well understand the enormous saving that will result from a union of all the colenies, from their having but one head and one central system We, in Canada, already know something ofthe advantages and disadvantages of a Federal Union, Although we have nominally a Legislative Union in Canada — although we sit in one Parliament, supposed constitutionally to re present the people without regard to sections or locaUties, yet we know, as a matter of fact, that since the union in 1841, we have had a Federal Union; that in matters affecting Upper Canada solely, members from that section claimed aud generally exercised the right of exclusive legislation, while mem bers from Lower Canada legislated in mat ters affecting only their own section. We have had a Federal Union in fact, though a Legislative Union in name ; and in the hot contests of late years, if on any occasion a measure affecting any one sec tion were interfered with by the members from the other — if, for instance, a mea sure locally affecting Upper Canada were carried or defeated against the wishes of its majority, by one from Lower Canada, — my honorable friend the Pres ident of the Council, and his friends denounced with all their energy and ability such legislation as an infringement of the rights of the Upper Province. (Hear, hear, and cheers). Just in the same way, if any act concerning Lower Canada were pressed into law against the wishes of the majority of her representatives, by those from Upper Canada, the Lower Canadians would rise as one man and protest against such a violation of their pecuUar rights. (Hear, hear.) The relations between England and Scotland are very similar to that which ob tains between the Canadas. The union be tween them, in matters of legislation, is ofa federal character, because the Act of Union between the two countries provides that the Scottish law cannot be altered, except for the manifest advantage of the people of Scotland. This stipulation has been held to be so obligatory on the Legislature of Great Bri tain, that no measure affecting the law of Scotland is passed unless it receives the sanction of a majority of the Scottish mem- bersin Parliament. No matt:r how import ant it may be for the interests of the empire as a whole to alter the laws of Scotland —no dl matter how muoh it may interfere with the symmetry of the general law of the United Kingdom, that law is not altered, except with the consent of the Scottish people, as expressed by their representatives in Par liament. (Hear, hear.) Thus, we have, in Great Britain, to a limited extent, an ex ample of the working and effecte of a Fed eral Union, as we might expect to witness them in our own Confederation. The whole scheme of Confederation, as propounded by the Conference, as agreed to and sanctioned by the Canadian Government, and as now presented for the consideration of the people, and the Legislature, bears upon it? face the marks of compromise. Of necessity there must have been a great deal of mutual con cession. When we think of the representa tives of five colonies, all supposed to have different interests, meeting together, charged with the duty of protecting those interests and of pressing the views of their own locali ties and sections, it must be admitted that had we not met in a spirit of conciliation, and with an anxious desire to promote this union; if we had not been impressed with the idea contained in the words of the resolution — " That the best interests and present and fu ture prosperity of, British North America would be promoted by a Federal Union under the Crown of Great Britain," — all our efforts might have proved to be of no avail. If we had not teh that, after coming to this conclusion, we were bound to set aside our private opinions on matters of detail, if we had not felt ourselves bound to look at what was practicable, not obstinately rejecting the opinions of others nor adhering to our own ; if we had not met, I say, in a spirit of concili ation, and with an anxious, overruling de sire to form one people under one government, we never would have succeeded. With these views, we press the question on this House and the country. I say to this House, if you do not believe that the union of the colonies is for the advantage of the country, that the joining of these five peoples into one nation, under one sovereign, is for the benefit of all, then reject the scheme. Reject it if you do not believe it to be for the present advan tage and future prosperity of yourselves and your chUdren. But if, after a calm and full con sideration of this scheme, it is believed, as a whole, to be for the advantage of this pro vince — if the House and country believe this union to be one which will ensure for us Bri tish laws, British connection, and British freedom — and increase aiid develope the so cial, political and material prosperity of the country, then I implore this House and the country to lay aside all prejudices, and accept the scheme which we offer. I ask this House to meet the question in the same spirit in which the delegates met it. I ask each member of this House to lay aside his own opinions as to particular details, and to accept the scheme as a whole if he think it beneficial as a whole. As I stated in the preliminary discussion, we must consider this scheme in the light of a treaty. By a happy coincidence of circum stances, just when an Administration had been formed in Canada forthe purpose of attempt ing a solution of the difficulties under which we laboured, at the same time the Lower Pro vinces, actuated by a similar feeling, appoint- ted a Conference with a view to a union among themselves, without being cognizant of the position the government was taking in Canada. If it had not been for this fortunate coincidence of events, never, perhaps, for a long series of years would we have been able to bring this scheme to a practical conclusion. But we did succeed. We made the arrange ment, agreed upon the scheme, and the depu tations from the several governments repre sented at the Conference went back pledged to lay it before their governments, and to ask tho legislatures and people of their respective provinces to assent to it. I trust the scheme will be assented to as a whole. I am sure this House will not seek to alter it in its unimportant details ; and, if altered in any important provisions, the result must be that the whole will be set aside, and we must begin de novo. If any important changes are made, every one of the colonies will feel itself absolved from the implied obligation to deal with it as a Treaty, each province will feel itself at liberty to amend it ad libitum so as to suit its own views and interests ; in fact, the whole of our labours will have been for nought, and we will have to renew our negotiations with all the colonies for the purpose of establishing some new scheme. I hope the House will not adopt any such a course as will postpone, perhaps for ever, or at all events for a long period, all chances of union. All the statesmen and public men who have written or spoken on the subject admit the advantages of a union, if it were practicable : and now when it is proved to be practicable, if we do not em brace this opportunity the present favor able time will pass away, and we may never ds liave it again. Becattse, just so surely as this scheme is defeated, will be revived the original proposition for a union of the Mari time Provinces, irrespective of Canada ; they will not remain as they are now, powerless, scattered, helpless communities ; they will form themselves into a power, whicb, though not so strong ag if united with Canada, will, nevertheless, be a powerful and considerable community, and it will be then too late for us to attempt to strengthen ourselves by this scheme, which, in the words ofthe resolution, " is for the best interests, and present and future prosperity of British North America." If we are not blind to our present position, we must see the hazardous situation in which all the great interests of Canada stand in respect to the United States. I am no alarmist. I do not believe in the prospect of immediate war. I believe that the common sense of the two nations will prevent a war ; still we cannot trust to probabilities. The Government and Legislature would be want ing in their duty to the people if they ran any risk. We know that the United States at this moment are engaged in a war of enormous dimensions^that the occasion of a war with Great Britain has again and again arisen, and may at any time in the future again arise. We cannot foresee what may be the result ; we cannot say but that the two nations may drift into a war as other nations have done before. It would then be too late when war had commenced to think of measures for strengthening ourselves, or to begin negociations for a union with the sister provinces. At this moment, in con sequence of the ill-feeling which has arisen between England and the United States — a feeling of which Canada was not the cause — in consequence of the irritation which now exists, owing to the unhappy state of affairs on this continent, the Reciprocity Treaty, it seems probable, is about to be brought to an end — our trade is hampered by the passport system, and at any moment we may be deprived of permission to carry our goods through United States channels — the bonded goods system may be done away with, and the winter trade through the United States put an end to. Our merchants may be obliged to return to the old system of bringing in during the summer months the supplies for tie whole year. Ourselves already threat ened, our trade interrupted, our intercourse, political and commercial, destroyed, if wo do not take warning new wben we have the op portunity, and while one avenue is threat ened to be closed, open another by taking ad vantage of the present arrangement and tho desire of the Lower Provinces to draw closer the alliance between us, we may suffer com mercial and political disadvantgaes it may take long for us to overcome. The Confeiy ence having come to the conclusion that i legislative union, pure and simple, was imi practicable, our next attempt was to form a government upon federal principles, whieh would Igive to the General Government the strength of a legislative and administrative union, while at the same time it preserved that liberty of action for the different sec tions which is allowed by a Federal Union. And I am strong in the belief— that we have hit upon the happy medium in those! resolutions, and that we have formed a scheme of government which unites the advantages of both, giving us the strength of a legisla tive union and the sectional freedom of a , federal union, with protection to local inter- ' ests. In doing so wo had the advantage of .; the experience of the United States. It is the fashion now to enlarge on the defects of \ the Constitution of the United States, but I am not one of those who look upon it as a failure. (Hear, hear.) I think and believe that it is one of the most skillful works I which human intelligence ever created ; is ; one of the most perfect organizations that ever governed a free people. To say that it has some defects is but to say that it is not the work of Omniscience, but of human in tellects. We are happily situated in having had the opportunity of watching its ope ration, seeing its working from its infancy till now. It was in the main formed on the model of the Constitution of Great Britain, adapted to the circumstances of a new coun try, and was perhaps the only practicable sys- [ tem that could have been adopted under the ; circumstances existing at the time of its formation. We can now take advantage of the experience of the last seventy-eight years, during which that Constitution has existed, and I am strongly of the belief that we have, in a great measure, avoided in this system which we propose for the adoption of the people of Canada, the defects which timo and events have shown to exist in thcAmer- ican Constitution. In the first place, by a resolution whioh meets with the universal approval of the people of this country, we have provided that for all time to come, so far as we can legislate for the future, we 33 shall have as the head of the executive pow er, the Sovereign of Great Britain. (Hear, hear.) No one can look into futurity and say what will be the destiny of this country. Changes come over nations and peoples in the course of ages. But, so far as we can legislate, we provide that, for all time to come, the Sovereign of Great Britain shall be the Sovereign of British North America. ! By adhering to tho monarchical principle, we avoid one defect inherent in the Con stitution of the United States. By the election of the President by a majority and for a short period, he never is the sovereign and chief of tbe nation. He is never looked up to by the whole people as the head and front of the nation. He is at best but the successful leader of a party. This defect is all the greater on account of tbe practice of re-election. During his first term of office, he is employed in taking steps to secure his own re-election, and for his party a continu ance of power. We avoid this by adhering to the monarchical principle — the Sovereign whom you respect and love. I believe that it is of the utmost importance to have that principle recognized, so that we shall have a Sovereign who is placed above the region cf party— to whom all parties look up — who is not elevated by the action of one party nor depressed by the action of an other, who is the common head and sover eign of all. (Hear, hear and cheers.) In the Constitution we propose to continue the system of Responsible Government,which has existed in this province since 1841, and which has long obtained in the Mother Country. This is a feature of our Constitu tion as we have it now, and as we shall have it in the Federation, in which, I think, we avoid one of the great defects in the Consti tution of the United States. There the Pre sident, during his term of office, is in a great measure a despot, a one-man power, with the command of the naval and military forces — with an immense amouiit of patronage as head of the Executive, and with the veto power aa a branch of the legislature, perfect ly uncontrolled by responsible advisers, his cabinet being departmental officei's merely, whom he is not obliged by the Constitution to consult with, unless he chooses to do so. With us the Sovereign, or in this country the Representative of the Sovereign, can act only on the advice of his ministers, those ministers being responsible to the people through Par liament, Prior to the formation of the Amer- 6 ican Union, as we aU know, the different states which entered into it were separate col onies. They had no connection with each other further than that of having a common sovereign, just as with us at present. Their constitutions and their lawa were different. They might and did legislate against each other, and when they revolted against the Mother Country they acted as separate sove reignties, and carried on the war by a kind ' of treaty of alliance against the common ene my. Ever since the union was formed the difficulty of what is called " State Rights " has existed, and this had much to do in bringing on the present unhappy war in the United States. They commenced, in fact, at the wrong end. They declaredby their Con stitution that each state was a sovereignty in y itself, and that all the powers incident to a( sovereignty belonged to each state, except \ those powtrs whioh, by the Constitution, were conferred upon the General Govern ment and Congress. Here we have adopted a different system. We have strengthened the General Government. We have given tbe General Legislature all the great subjects of legislation. We have conferred on them, not only specifically and in detail, all the powers which are ineident to sovereignty, but we have expressly declared that all subjects of general interest not distinctly and exclusively conferred upan the local governments and local legislatures, shall be conferred upon the General Government and Legislature. — We have thus avoided that great source of weak ness which has been the 0i\use of the disrup tion of the United States. We have avoided all conflict of jurisdiction and authority, and if this Constitution is carried out, as it will be in^full detail in the Imperial Act to be passed if the colonies adopt the scheme, we will have in fact, as I said before, all the ad vantages of a legislative union under one ad ministration, with, at the same time the guar antees for local institutions and for local laws, which are insisted upon by so many in the provinces now, I hope, to be united. I think it is well that, in framing our Constitution — although my honorable friend the member for Hochelaga (Hon. Mr. Dorion) sneered at it the other day, in the discussion on the Address in reply to the speech from the Throne — our first act should have been to recognize the sovereignty of Her Majesty. (Hear, hear.) I believe that, while England has no desire to lose her colonies, but wishes to retain them, whUe I am satisfied that the 34 public mind of England would deeply regret the loss of these provinces — yet, if the peo ple of British North America after full de liberation bad stated that tbey considered it was for their interest, for the advantage of the future of British North America to sever the tie, such is the generosity of the people of England, that, whatever their desire to keep these colonies, they would not seek to compel us to remain unwilling subjects of the British Crown. If therefore, at the Confer ence, we had arrived at the conclusion, that itwas fortheinterest of these provinces thata severance should take place,I am sure that Her Majesty and the Imperial Parliament would have sanctioned that severance. We accord ingly felt that there was a propriety in giving a distinct declaration of opinion on that point, and that, in framing the Constitution, its first sentence should declare, tbat '* The Execu tive authority or government shall be vested in the Sovereign of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, and be adminis tered according to the well understood prin ciples of the British Constitution, iy the Sovereign parsonally, or by the Representa tive of the Sovereign duly authorised." That resolution met with the unanimous assent of the Conference. The desire to remain con nected with Great Britain and to retain our allegiance to Her Majesty was unanimous. Not a single suggestion was made, that it could, by any possibility, be for the interest of the colonies, or of any section or portion of them, that there should be a severance ofour connection. Although we knew it to be possible that Canada, from her position, might be exposed to all the horrors of war, by reason of causes of hostility arising between Great Britain and the United States — causes over which we had no control, and which we had no hand in bringing about — yet there was a unanimous feeling of willingness to run all the hazards of war, if war must come, rather than lose the con nection between the Mother Country and these colonies. (Cheers.) We provide that " the Executive authority shall be ad ministered by the Sovereign personally, or by the Representative of the Sovereign duly authorized." It is too much to expect that the Queen should vouchsafe us her personal governance or presence, except to pay us, as the heir apparent of the Throne, our future Sovereign has already paid us, the graceful compliment of a visit. The Executive authority must therefore be ad ministered by Her Majesty's Represen tative. We place no restriction on Her Majesty's prerogative in the selection of her representative. As it is now, so it will be if this Constitution is adopt- ed. The Sovereign has unrestricted free dom of choice. Whether in making her selection she may send us one of her own family, a Royal Prince, as a Viceroy to rule over us, or one of the great statesmen of England to represent her, we know not We leave that to Her Majesty in all confi- dence. But we may be permitted to hope, that when the union takes place, and we become the great country which British North America is certain to be, it will be an object worthy the ambition of the statesmen of England to be charged with presiding over our destinies. (Hear, hear.) Let me now invite the atten tion of the House to the provisions in the Constitution respecting the legisla tive power. The sixth resolution says, " There shall be a general legislature or parlia ment for the federated provinces, composed of a Legislative Council and a House of Com mons." This resolution has been cavilled at in the English press as if it excluded the Sovereign as a portion of the legislature. In one sense, that stricture was just — be cause in strict constitutional language, the legislature of England consists of King, Lords and Commons. But, on the other hand, in ordinary parlance we speak of " the King and his Parliament," or "the King summoning his Parliament," the three estates — Lords spiritual, temporal Lords, and the House of Commons, and I observe that such a writer as Hallam occa sionally uses the word Parliament in that restricted sense. At best it is merely a verbal criticism. The legislature of British North America will be composed of King, Lords, and Commons. The Legi slative Council will stand in the same relation to the Lower House, as the House of Lords to the House of Commons in England, having the same power of initiating all matters of legislation, except the granting of money. As regards the Lower House, it may not appear to matter much, whether it is called the House of Commons or House of Assembly. It wUl bear what ever name the Pariiament of Enrland may choose to give it, but " The House of Com mons" is the name we should prefer, as shewing that it represents the Commons of 35 Canada, ia the same way that the English House of Commons represents the Commons of England, with the same privileges, the same parliamentary usage, and the same parliamentary authority. In settling the constitution of the Lower House, that whioh peculiarly represents the people, it was agreed that the principle of representation based on population should be adopted, and the mode of applying that principle is fully developed in these resolutions. When I speak of representation by population, the House will of course understand, that univer sal suffrage is not in any way sanctioned, or admitted by these resolutions, as the basis on which the constitution of the popular branch should rest. In order to protect local intereste, and to prevent sectional jealousies, it was found requisite that the three great divisions into which British North America is separated, should be represented in the Upper House on the principle of equality. There are three great sections, having different interests, in this proposed Confederatien. We have Western Canada, an agricultural country far away from the sea, and having the largest popu lation who have agricultural interests prin cipally to guard. We have Lower Canada, with other and separate interests, and espe cially with institutions and laws which she jealously guards against absorption by any larger, more numerous, or stronger power. And we have the Maritime Provinces, hav ing also different sectional intereste of their own, having, from their position, classes and interests which we do not know in Western Canada. Accordingly, in the Upper House, — the controlling and regulating, but not the initiating, branch (for we know that here as in England, to the Lower House will practic aUy belong the initiation of matters of great public interest), in the House which has the sober second-thought in legislation — it is provided that each of those great sections shall be represented equally by 24 members. The only exception to that condition of equality is in the case of Newfoundland, which has an interest of its own, lying, as it does, at the mouth of the great river St. Law rence, and more connected, perhaps, with Canada than with the Lower Provinces. It has, comparatively speaking, no common in terest with the other Maritime Provinces, but has sectional interests and sectional claims of its own to bo protected. It, there fore has been dealt with separately, and is to have a separate representation in the Upper House, thus varying from the equality established between the other sections. — As may be well conceived, great difference of opinion at first existed as to the constitu tion of the Legislative Council. In Canada the elective principle prevailed ; in the Lower Provinces, with the exception of Prince Edward Island, tho nominative prin ciple was the rule. We found a general disinclination on the part of the Lower Provinces to adopt the elective principle ; indeed, I do not think there was a dissent ing voice in the Conference against the adop tion of the nominative principle, except from Prince Edward Island. The delegates from New Brunswick, Nov.i Scotia and Newfcund- land, as one man, were iu favor of nom ination by the Crown. And nomination by the Crown is of course the system which is most in accordance with the British Con stitution. We resolved then, that the con stitution of the Upper House should be in accordance with the British system as nearly as circumstances would allow. An hereditary Upper House is impracticable in this young country. Here we have none of the elements for the formation of a landlord aristocracy — no men of large territorial positions — no class separated from the mass of the people. An hereditary body is altogether unsuited to our state of society, and would soon dwindle into nothing. The only mode of adapting the English system to the Upper House, is by conferring the power of appointment on the Crown (as the English peers are appoint ed), but that the appointments should be for life. The arguments for an elective Council are numerous and strong; and I ought to say so, as one of the Administration responsible for introducing the elective principle into Canada. (Hear, hear.) I hold that this prin ciple has not been a failure in Canada; but there were causes — which we did not take into consideration at the time — why it did not so fully succeed in Canada as we had expected. One great cause was the enormous extent ofthe constituencies and the immense labor which consequently devolved on those who sought the suffrages of the people for election to the Council. For the same reason the expense — (laughter) — the legitimate expense was so enormous that men of stand ing in the country, eminently fitted for such a position, were prevented from coming forward. At first, I admit, men of the first standing did come forward, but we 36 have seen that in every succeeding election in both Canadas there has been an in creasing disinclination, on the part of men of standing and political experience and weight in the country, to become can didates ; while, on the other hand, all the young men, the active politicians, those who have resolved to embrace the life of a statesman, have sought entrance to the Houseof Assembly. The nominative system in this country, was to a great extent success ful, before the introduction of responsible government. Then the Canadas were to a great extent Crown colonies, and the upper branch of the legislature consisted of gentle men chosen from among the chief judicial and ecclesiastical dignitaries, the heads of departments, and other men of the first position in the country. Those bodies com manded great respect from the character, standing, and weight ofthe individuals com posing them, but they had little sympathy with the people or their representatives, and collisions with the Lower House frequently occurred, especially in Lower Canada. When responsible government was introduced, it became necessary for tbe Governor of tbe day to have a body of advisers who had tho confidence of the House of Assembly which could make or unmake ministers as it chose. The Lower House in effect pointed out who should be nominated to the Upper House ; for the ministry, being de pendent altogether on the lower branch of the legislature for support, selected members fbr the Upper House from among their poli tical friends at the dictation of the House of Assembly. The Council was becoming less aud less a substantial check on the legislation of the Assembly; but under the system now proposed, such will not be the case. No ministry can in future do what they have done in Canada before, — they cannot, with the view of carrying any measure, or of strengthening the party, attempt to overrule the independent opinion ofthe Upper House, by filling it with a number of its partisans and political supporters. The provision in the Constitution, that the Legislative Council shall consist of a limited number of members — that each ofthe great sections shall appoint twenty-four members ind no more, will prevent the Upper House from being swamped from time to time by the ministry of the day, for the purpose of carrying out their own schemes or pleasing their parti sans. The fact of the government bein" prevented from exceeding a limited number will preserve tbe independence of the Upper House, and make it, in reality, a separate and distinct chapiber, having a legitimate and controlling influence in the legislation ofthe country. The objection has been taken that in consequence ofthe Crown being deprived of the right of unlimited appointment, there is a chance of a dead lock arising between the two branches of the legislature ; a chance that the Upper House being altogether independent ofthe Sovereign, of the Lower House, and of the advisers of the Crown, may act indepen dently, and so independently as to produce a dead lock. I do not aaticipate any such result. In the first place we know that in England it does not arise. There would be no use of an Upper House, if it did not exercise, when it thought proper, the right of opposing or amending or postponing the legislation of the Lower House. It would be of no value whatever were it a mere chamber for registering the decrees of the Lower House. It must be an independent House, having a free action of its own, for it is only valuable as being a regulating body, calmly considering the legislation initiated by the popular branch, and preventing any hasty or ill considered legislation whioh may come from that body, but it will never set itself in opposition against the deliberate and understood wishes ofthe people. Even tbe House of Lords, which as an hereditary body, is far more independent than one appointed for life can be, whenever it ascertains what is the calm, deliberate will of the people of England, it yields, and never in modern times has there been, in fact or act, any attempt to overrule the decisions of that House by the appointment of new peers, excepting, per haps, once in the reign of Queen Anne. It is true that in 1832 such an increase was threatened in consequence of the reiterated refusal of the House of Peers to pass the Reform Bill. I have no doubt the threat would havo been earned into effect, if neces sary ; but every one, even the Ministry who advised that step, admitted that it would be a revolutionary act, a breach of the Consti tution to do so, and it was because of the necessity of preventing the bloody revolution which hung over the land, if the Reform BiU had been longer refused to tha people of Eng land, that they consented to 'the bloodless revolution of overriding tbo independent 37 opinion of the House of Lords on that ques tion. (Hear, hear.) Since that time it has never been attempted, and I am satisfied it will never be attempted again. Only a year or two ago the House of Lords rejected the Paper Duties Bill, and they acted quite constitutionally, according to the letter and as many think, according to the spirit of the Constitution in doing so. Yet when they found they had interfered with a subject which the people's house claimed as belong ing of right to themselves, the very next session they abandoned their position, not because they were convinced they had done wrong, but because they had ascertained what was the deliberate voice of the repre sentatives of the people on the subject. In this country, we must remember, that the gentlemen who wUl be selected fbr the Leg islative Council stand on a very different footing from the peers of England. They have not like them any ancestral associations or position derived from history. They have not that direct influence on the people them selves, or on the popular branch of the legis lature, which the peers of England exercise, from their great wealth, tbeir vast territo rial possessions, their numerous tenantry and that prestige with which the exalied position of their class for centuries has in vested them. (Hear, hear.) The members of our Upper Hou.'^e will be like those of the Lower, men of the people, and from the people. The man put into the Upper House is as much a man of the people the day after, as the day before his elevation. Springing from the people, and one of them, he takes liis seat in the Council with all the sympathies and feelings of a man of the people, and when he returns home, at the end of the session, he mingles with them ou equal terms, and is influenced by the same feelings and associations, and events, as those which affect the mass around him. And is it, then, to be supposed that the members ofthe upper branch of the legisla ture will set themselves deliberately at work to oppose whi.t^ey know to be the settled opinions and wishes of the people of the country ? They will not do it. There is no fear of a dead lock between the two houses. There is an infinitely greater chance of a dead lock between the two branches of the legislature, should the elective principle be adopted, than with a nominated chamber — chosen by the Crown, and having no mis sion from the people. The members of th? Upper Chamber would then come from the people as well as those of the Lower House, and should any difference ever arise between both branches, the former could say to the members of the popular branch — " We as much represent the feelings of the people as you do, and even more so; we are not elect ed from small localities and for a short pe riod ; you as a body were elected at a par ticular time, when the public mind was run ning in a particular channel : you were re turned to Parliament, not so much repre senting the general views of the country, on general questions, as upon the particular subjects whicii happened to engage tho minds of the people when they went to the polls. We have as much right, or a better right, than you to be considered as representing the deliberate will of the people on general questions, and therefore we will not give way." (Hear, hear.) There is, I repeat, a greater danger of an irreconcilable differ ence of opinion between the two branches of the legislature, if the upper be elective, than if it holds its commission from the Crown. Besides, it must be remembered that an Upper House, the membeis of which are to be appointed for life, would not have the same quality of permanence as the House of Lords; our members would die; strangers would suc ceed them, whereas son succeeded father iu the House of Lords. Thus the changes in the membership and state of opinion in our Upper House would always be more rapid than in the House of Lords. To show how speedily changes have occurred in the Upper Ilouse, as regards life members, I will call the attention of the House to the following facts : — At the call of the House, in Febru ary, 1856, forty-two life members responded ; two years afterwards, in 1858, only thirty- five answered to their names; in 1S62 there were only twenty-five life members left, and in 1864, but twenty-one. (Hear, hear.) This shows how speedily changes take place in the life membership. But remarkable as this change has been, it is not so great as that in regard to the elected members. Though the elective'principle only came into force iu 1856, and although only twelve men were elected that year, and twelve more every two years since, twenty-four changes have already taken place by the decease of members, by the acceptance of office, and by resignation. So it is quite clear that, should there be on any question a differenco of opinion between the Upper and Lower 38 Houses, the government of the day being obliged to have the confidence of the majority in the popular branch — would, for the purpose of bringing the former into accord and sympathy with the latter, fill up any vacancies that might occur, with men of the same political feelings and sympathies with the Government, and consequently with those of the majority in the popular branch ; and all the appointments of the Administra tion would be made with the object of maintaining the sympathy and harmony be tween the two houses. (Hear, hear.) There is this additional advantage to be expected from the limitation. To the Upper House is to bo confided the protection of sectional interests; therefore is it that the three great divisions are there equally represented, for the purpose of defending such interests against the combinations of majorities in the Assembly. It will, therefore, become the interest of each section to be represented by its very best men, and the members of the Administration who belong to each sec tion will see that such men are chosen, in case ofa vacancy in their section. For the same reason each stato of the American Union sends its two best men to represent itu interests in the Senate. (Hear, hear.) It is provided in the Constitution that in the first selections for the Council, regard shall be had to those who now hold similar positions in the different colonies. This, it appears to me, is a wise provision. In all the provinces, except Prince Edward, there are gentlemen who hold commissions for the Upper House for life. In Canada, there are a number who hold under that commission ; but the majority of them hold by a com mission, not, perhaps, from a monarchical point of view so honorable, because the Queen is the fountain of honor, — but still as holding their appointment' from the people, they may be considered as standing on a par with those who have Her Majesty's commission. There can bono reason suggest ed why those who have had experience in legislation, whether they hold their positions by the election of the people or have received preferment from the Crown— there is no valid reason why those men should be passed over, and new men sought for to form the Legislative Council of the Confederation. It IS, therefore, provided that the selection shall bo made from those gentlemen who are now members of the upper branch of the Legislature in each of the colonies, for seate in the Legislative Council of the General Legislature. The arrangement in this re spect is somewhat similar to that by which Representative Peers are chosen from the Peers of Scotland and Ireland, to sit in the Parliament of the United Kingdom. In like manner, the members ofthe Legislative Council of the proposed Confederation will be first selected from the existing Legislative Councils of the various provinces. In the formation of the House of Commons, the principle of representation by population has been provided for in a manner equally ingenious and simple. The introduction of this principle presented at first the apparent difficulty of a constantly increasing body until, with the increasing population, it would become inconveniently and expen sively large. But by adopting the represen tation of Lower Canada as a fixed standard — as the pivot on whioh the whole would turn — that province being the best suited for the purpose, on account of the compara tively permanent character of its population, and from its having neither tho largest nor least number of inhabitants — we have been enabled to overcome the difficulty I have mentioned. We have introduced the system of representation by population without the danger of an inconvenient increase in the number of representatives on the recurrence of each decennial period. The whole thing is worked by a simple rule of three. For instance, we have in Upper Canada 1,400,000 of a population ; in Lower Canada 1,100,000. Now, the proposition is simply this — if Lower Canada, with its population of 1,100,000, has a right to 65 members, how many members should Upper Canada have, with its larger population of 1,400,000 ? The same rule applies to the otber provinces — the propor tion is always observed and the principle of representation by population carried out, while, at the same time, there wiU not be decennially an inconvenient increase in the numbers of the Lower House. At the same time, there is a constitutional provision that hereafter, if deemed advisable, the total number of representatives may be increased from 194, the number fixed in the first instance. In that case, if an increase is made. Lower Canada is still to remain the pivot on which the whole calculation will turn. If Lower Canada, instead of sixty- five, shall have seventy members, then the calculation will be, if Lower Canada has seventy members, with such a population, 39 how many shall Upper Canada have with a larger population ? I was in favor of a larg er House than one hundred and ninety-four, but was overruled. I was perhaps singular in the opinion, but I thought it would be well to commence with a larger representa tion in the lower branch. The arguments against this were, that, in the first place, it would cause additional expense; in the next place, that in a new country like this, we could not get a sufficient number of qualified meu to be representatives. My reply was that the number is rapidly increasing as wc increase in education and wealth ; that a larger field would be open to political am bition by having a larger body of represen tatives ; that by having numerous and small er constituencies, more people would be in terested in the working of the union, and that there would be a wider field for selection for leaders of governments and leaders of parties. These are my individual sentiments,-^which, perhaps, I have no right to express here — but I was overruled, and we fixed on the number of one hundred and ninety-four, which no one will say is large or extensive, when it is considered that our present number in Canada alone is one hundred and thirty. The difference between one hundred and thirty and one hundred and ninety-lour is not great, considering the large increase that will be made to our population when Confederation is carried into effect. While the principle of representation by popu lation is adopted with respect to the popular branch of the legislature, not a single mem ber of the Conference, as I stated before, not a single one of the representatives of the government or of the opposition of any one of the Lower Provinces was in favor of universal suffrage. Every one felt that in this respect the principle of the British Con stitution should be carried out, and that class es and property should be represented as well as numbers. Insuperable difficulties would have presented themselves if we had attempt ed to settle now the qualification for the eleo- ,tive franchise. We have different l.iws in each of the colonies fixing the qualification of elec tors for their own local legislatures ; and we therefore adopted a similar clause to that which is contained in the Canada Union Act of 1841, viz., that all the laws wbich affect ed the qualification of members and of voters, which affected the appointment aud conduct of returning officers and the proceedings at elections, as well as the trial of controverted elections in the separate provinces, should obtain in the first election to the Confederate Parliament, so that every man who has now a vote in his own province should continue to have a vote in choosing a representative to the first Federal Parliament. And it was left to the Parliament of the Confederation, as one of their first duties, to consider and to settle by an act of their own the qualifica tion for the elective franchise, wbich would apply to the whole Confederation. In consid ering the question of the duration of Parlia ment, we came to the conclusion to recom mend a period of five years. I was in favor of a longer period. I thought that the duration of the local legislatures should not be short ened so as to be less than four years, as at pre sent, and thatthe General Parliament should have as long a duration as that of the United Kingdom. I was willing to have gone to the extent of seven years; but a term of five years was preferred, and we had the example of the New Zealand carefuUy considered, not only locally, but by the Imperial Parliament, and which gave the provinces of those islands a general parliament with a duration of five years. But it was a matter of little import ance whether five years or seven years was the term, the power of dissolution by the Crown having been reserved. I find, on look ing at the duration of parliaments since the accession of George III. to the Throne, that excluding the present parliament, there have been seventeen parliaments, the average pe riod of whose existence has been about three years and a half. That average is less than the average duration of the parliaments in Canada since the union, so that it was not a matter of much importance whether we fixed upon five or seven years as the period of duration of our General Parliament. A good dealof misapprehension has arisen from the accidental omission of some words from the 24th resolution. It was thought tbat by it the local legislatures were to have the power of arranging hereafter, and from time to time of readjusting the different constitu encies and settling the size and boundaries of the various electoral districts. Tbe mean ing of the resolution is simply this, that for the first General Parliament, the arrange ment of constituencies shall be made by the existing local legislatures ; that in Canada, for instance, the present Canadian Parliament shall arrange what arc to be the constituen cies of Upper Canada, and to make such changes as may be necessary in arranging 40 for the seventeen additional members given to it by the Constitution ; and that it may also, if it sees fit, alter the boundaries of the existing constituencies of Lower Canada. In short, this Parliament shall settle what shall be the different constituencies electing members to the first Federal Parliament. And so the other provinces, the legislatures of which will fix the limits of their several constituencies in the session in wbie'.i they adopt the new Constitution. Afterwards the local legislatures may alter their own electo ral limits as they please, for their own local elections. But it would evidently be un- proper to leave to the Local Legislature the power to alter the constituencies sending members to tbe General Legislature after the General Legislature shall have been called into existence. Were this the case, a member of the General Legislature might at any time find himself ousted from his seat by an alteration of his constituency by the Local Legislature in his section. No, after the General Parliament meets, in order that it may have full control of its own legislation, and be assured of its position, it must have the full power of arranging and re-arranging the electoral limits of its constituencies as it •pleases, such being one of the powers essen tially necessary to such a Legislature. (Hear, hear.) I shall not detain, the House by entering into a consideration at any length of the different powers conferred upon the General Parliament as contradistin guished from those reserved to the local hgislatures; but any honorable mem ber on examining the list of different subjects which are to be assigned to the General and Local Legislatures respectively, will see that all the great questions which affect the general interests of the Confederacy as a whole, are confided to the Federal Par hament, while the local intereste and local laws of each section are preserved intact, and entrusted to the care of the local bodies. Asa matter of course, the General Parliament must have the power of dealing with the public debt and property of the Confederation. Of course, too, it must have the regulation of trade and commerce, of customs and excise. The Federal Parlia ment must have the sovereign power of rais ing money from such sources and by such means as the representatives of the people will allow. It will be seen that the local legislatures have the control of all local works ; and it is a matter of great importance, and one ofthe chief advantages ofthe Federal Union and ot local legislatures, thet each province will have the power and means of developing its own resources and aiding its own progress after its own fashion and in its own way. Therefore all the local improve ments, all local enterprizes or undertakings of any kind, have been left to the care and management of the local legislatures of each province. (Cheers.) It is pro vided that all "lines of steam or other ships, railways, canals and other works, connecting any two or more of the prov inces together or extending beyond the limits of any province," shall belong to the General Government, and be under the con trol of the General Legislature. In like manner " lines of steamships between the Federated Provinces and other countries, telegraph communication and the incorpor ation of telegraph companies, and all such works as shall, although lying within any province, be specially declared by the Acta authorizing them, to be for the general ad vantage," shall belong to the General Go vernment. For instance, the Welland Canal, though lying wholly within one section, and the St. Lawrence Canals in two only, may be properly considered national works, and for the general benefit of the whole Feder ation. Again, the census, the ascertaining of our numbers and the extent of our re sources, must, as a matter of general interest, belong to the General Government. So also with the defences of tbe country. One of the great advantages of Confederation is, that we shall have a united, a concerted, and uniform system of defence. (Hear.) Weare at this moment with a different militia system in each colony — in some of the colonies with an utter want of any system of defence. We have a number of separate staff establishments, without any arrange ment between the colonies as to the means, either of defence or offence. But, under the union, we will have one system of defence and one system of militia organization. In the event of tho Lower Provinces being, threatened, we can send the large militia forces of Upper Canada to their rescue. Should we have to fight on our lakes against a foreign ioe, we will have the hardy seamen of the Lower Provinces coming to our as sistance and manning our vessels. (Hear, hear.) We will have one system of defence and be one people, acting together alike in peace and in war. (Cheers.) Th e crimin al 41 law too — the determination of what is a crime and what is not and how crime shall be punished — is left to the General Govern ment. This is a matter almost of necessity. It is of great importance that we should have the same criminal law throughout these pro vinces — that what is a crime in one part of British America, should be a crime in every part — that there should be the same pro- \ tection of life and property as in another. It is one of the defects in the United States system, that each separate state has or may have a criminal code of its own, — that what may be a capital offence in one state, may be a venial offence, punishable slightly, in another. But under our Constitution we shall have one body of criminal law, based on the criminal law of England, and operating equally throughout British America, so that a British American, belonging to what province he may, or going to any other part of the Confederation, knows what his rights are in that respect, and what his punishment will be if an offender against the criminal laws ofthe land. I think this is one of the most most marked instances in which we take advantage of the experience derived firom our observations of the defects in the Constitution of the neighboring Republic. (Hear, hear.) The 33rd provision is of very great importance to the future weU-being of these colonies. It commits to the General Parliament the " rendering uniform all or any of the laws relative to property and civil righte in Upper Canada, Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, Newfoundland and Prince Ed ward Island, and rendering uniform the pro cedure of all or any of the courts in these provinces." The great principles which govern the laws of all the provinces, with the single exception of Lower Canada, are the same, although there maybe a divergence in details ; and it is gratifying to find, on the part of the Lower Provinces, a general de sire to join together with Upper Canada in this matter, and to procure, as soon as possi ble, an assimilation of the statutory laws and the procedure in the courts, of all these pro vinces. At present there is a good deal of diversity. In one of the colonies, for in stance, they have no municipal system at all. In another, the municipal system ia merely permissive, and has not been adopted to any extent. Although, therefore, a legislative union was found to be almost impracticable, it was understood, so far as we could influence the future, that the first act of the Confeder- 7 ate Government should be to procure an as similation of the statutory law of all those provinces, which has, as its root and founda tion, the common law of England. But to prevent local interests from being over-ridden, the same section makes provision, that, while power is given to the General Legislature to deal with this subject, no change in this respect should have the force and authority of law in any province until sanctioned by the Legislature of that province. (Hear, hear.) The General Legislature is to have power to establish a general Court of Appeal for the Federated Provinces. Although the Canadian Legislature has always had the power to establish a Court of Appeal, to which appeals may be made from the courts of Upper and Lower Canada, we have never availed ourselves of the power. Upper Can ada has its own Court of Appeal, so has Lower Canada. And this system will con tinue until a General Court of Appeal shall be established by the General Legislature. The Constitution does not provide that such a court shall be established. There are many arguments for and against the establishment of such a court. But it was thought wise and expedient to put into the Constitution a power to the General Legislature, that, if after full consideration they think it advisa ble to establish a General Court of Appeal from all the Superior Courts of all the pro vinces, they may do so. (Hear, hear.) I shall not go over the other powers that are conferred on the General Parliament. Most of them refer to matters of financial and commercial interest, and I leave those sub- / jects in other and better hands. Besides/ all the powers that are specifically given in/ the 37th and last item of this portion of thd Constitution, confers on the General Legis-\ lature the general mass of sovereign legisla- v, tion, the power to legislate on " all matters ' of a general character, not specially and ex clusively reserved for the local governments and legislatures." This is precisely the provision which is wanting in the Constitu- j tion of the United States. It is here that we j find the weakness of the American system — \ the point where the American Constitution breaks down. (Hear, hear.) It is in itself a \ wise and necessary provision. We thereby strengthen the Central Parliament, and make the Confederation one people and one govern ment, instead of five peoples and five govern ments, with merely a point of authority con necting us to a limited and insufficient extent. 42 With respect to the local governments, it is provided that each shall be governed by a chief executive officer, who shall be nomin ated by tbe General Government. As this is to be one united province, with the local governments and legislatures subordinate to the General Government and Legislature, itis obvious that the chief executive officer in each of the provinces must be subordinate as well. The General Government assumes towards the local governments precisely the same position as the Imperial Government holds with respect to each of the colonies now ; so that as the Lieutenant Governor of each of the different provinces is now ap pointed directly by the Queen, and is direct ly responsible, and reports directly to Her, so will the executives of the local govern ments hereafter be subordinate to the Rep resentative of the Queen, and be respousible and report to him. Objection has been tak en that there is an infringement of the Royal prerogative in giving the pardoning power to the local governors, who are not appointed directly by the Crown, but only indirectly by the Chief Executive of the Confederation, who is appointed by the Crown. This provision was icserted in the Constitution on account of the practical dif ficulty which must arise if the power is confined to the Governor General. For ex ample, if a question arose about the dis charge of a prisoner convicted of a minor offence, say in Newfoundland, who might be in imminent danger of losing his life if he remained in confinement, the exercise of the pardoning power might come too late if it were necessary to wait for the action of the Governor General. It must be remembered that the pardoning power not only extends to capital cases, but to every case of convic tion and sentence, no matter how trifling — even to the case of a fine in the nature of a sentence ou a criminal conviction. It extends to innumerable cases, where, if the responsi bility for its exercise were thrown on the General Executive, it could not be so satis factorily discharged, Of course there must be, in each province, a legal adviser of the Executive, occupying the position of our Attorney General, as there is in every state of the American Union. This officer will be an officer of the Local Government ; but, if the pardoning power is reserved tor the Chief Executive, there must, in every case where the exercise of the pardoning power is sought, be a direct communication and report from the local law officer to the Governor General. The practical inconvenience of this was felt to be so great, that it waa thought well to propose the arrangement we did, without any desire to infringe upon the prerogatives of the Crown, for our whole ac tion shews that the Conference; in every step they took, were actuated by a desire to guard jealously these prerogatives. (Hear, hear.) It is a subject, however, of Imperial interest, and if tbe Imperial Government and Imperial Parliament are not convinced by the argu ments we will be able to press upon them for the continuation of that clause, then, of course, as the over -ruling power, they may set it aside. (Hear, hear.) There are nu merous subjects which belong, of right, both to the Local and the General Parliaments. In aU these cases it is provided, in order to prevent a conflict of authority, that where there is concurrent jurisdiction in the General and Local Parliamente, the same rule should apply as now applies in cases where there is concurrent jurisdiction in the Im perial and in the Provincial Parliaments, and that wben the legiblation of the one is adverse to or contradictory of the legislation of the other, in all such cases the action of the General Parliament must overrule, ex-neoes- sitate, the action of the Local Legislature. (Hear, hear.) We have introduced also all those provisions which are necessary in order to the full working out of the British Consti tution in these provinces. We provide that there shall be no money votes, unless those votes are introduced in the popular branch of the Legislature on the authority of the responsible advisers of the Crown — those with whom the responsibility rests of equal izing revenue and expenditure — that there can be no expenditure or authorization of expenditure by Address or in any other way unless initiated by the Crown on the advice of its responsible advisers. (Hear, hear.) As regards the financial features of the scheme, the arrangements made as to the present liabilities of the several provinces, and the future liabilities of the Confedera tion, on these and kindred matters, I have no doubt that my honorable friends, the Finance Minister and the President of the CouncU, will speak at full length, and that they will be able to shew you that this branch of the subject has received the fullest con sideration. I feel I would bo intruding myself unnecessarily on the House if, with my inferior knowledge of those subjects I were to detain you by venturing to speak of , them, when I know that they wi i 'jq go ablj 43 and fully gone into by my two honorable friends. The last resolution of any import ance is one which, although not affecting the substance of the Constitution, is of interest to us all. It is that " Her Majesty the Queen be solicited to determine the rank and name of the federated provinces." I do not know whether there will be any expression of opinion in this House on this subject — whether we are to be a vice-royalty, or whether we are stUl to retain our name and rank as a province. But I have no doubt Her Majesty will give the matter Her gracious considera tion, that She will give us a name satisfactory to us all, and that the rank She will confer upon us will be a rank worthy of our position, ofour resources, and ofour future. (Cheers.) Let me again, before I sit down, impress upon this House the necessity of meeting this question in a spirit of compromise, with a disposition to judge the matter as a whole, to consider whether really it is for the benefit and advantage of the country to form a Con federation of all the provinces ; and if honorable gentlemen, whatever may have been their preconceived ideas as to the merits ofthe details of this measure, whatever may still be their opinions as to these details, if they really believe that the scheme is one by which the prosperity of the country will be increased, and its future progress secured, I ask them to yield their own views, and to deal with the scheme according to its merits as one great whole. (Hear, hear.) One argument, but not a strong one, has been used against this Confederation, that it is an advance towards independence. Some are apprehensive that the very fact ofour forming this union will hasten the time when we shall be severed from the mother country. I have no apprehension of that kind. I believe it will have the contrary effect. I believe that as we grow stronger, that, as it is felt in England we have become a people, able from our union, our strength, our population, and the development of our resources, to take our position among the nations of the world, she will be less willing to part with us than she would be now, when we are broken up into a number of insignificant colonies, sub ject to attack piece-meal without any con certed action or common organization of defence. I am strongly of opinion that year by year, as we grow in population and strength, England will more see the advan- tagis of maintaining the alliance between British North America and herself. Does any one imagine that, when our population instead of three and a-half, will be seven millions, as it will be ere many years pass, we would be one whit more willing than now to sever the connection with England ? Would not those seven millions be just as anxious to maintain their allegiance to the Queen and their connection with the Mother Country, as we are now ? Will the addition to our numbers of the people of the Lower Provinces, in any way lessen our desire to continue our connection with the Mother Country ? I believe the people of Canada East and West to be truly loyal. But, if they can by possibility be exceeded in loyalty, it is by the inhabitants of the Maritime Provinces. Loyalty with them is an overruling passion. (Hear, hear.) In all parts of the Lower Provinces there is a rivalry between the opposing political parties as to whioh shall most strongly express and most effectively carry out the principle of loyalty to Her Majesty, and to the British Crown. (Hear, bear.) When this union takes place, we will be at the outset no incon siderable people. We find ourselves with a population approaching four millions of souls. Such a population in Europe would make a second, or at least, a third rate power.' And with a rapidly in creasing population — for I a satisfied that under this union our popula tion will increase in a still greater ratio than ever before — with increased credit — with a higher position in the eyes of Europe — with the increased security we can offer to immi grants, who would naturally prefer to seek a new home in what is known to them as a great country, than in any one little colony or another — with all this I am satisfied that, great as has been our increase in the last twenty-five years since the union between Upper and Lower Canada, our future pro gress, during the aext quarter of a century, will be vastly greater. (Cheers.) And when, by means of this rapid increase, we become a nation of eight or nine millions of inhabitants, our alliance will be worthy of being sought by the great nations of the earth. (Hear, hear.) I am proud to believe that our desire for a permanent alliance wiU be reciprocated in England. I know that there is a party in England — but it is in considerable in numbers, though strong in intellect and power — which speaks of the desirability of getting rid of the colonies ; but I believe such is not the feeling of the states men and the people of England. I believe 44 it will never be the deliberately expressed determination of the Government of Great Britain. (Hear, hear.) The colonies are now in a transition state. Gradually a dif ferent colonial system is being developed — and it will become, year by year, less a case of dependence on our part, and of overruling protection on the part of the Mother Coun try, and more a case of a healthy and cordial aUiance. Instead of looking upon us as a merely dependent colony, England will have in us a friendly nation — a subordinate but still a powerful people — to stand by her in North America in peace or in war. (Cheers.) The people of Australia will be such another subordinate nation. And England will have this advantage, if her colonies progress under the new colonial system, as I believe they will, that, though at war with all the rest of the world, she will be able to look to the subordinate nations in alliance with her, and owning allegiance to the same Sovreign, who will assist in enabling her again to meet the whole world in arms, as she has done before. (Cheers.) And if, in the great Napoleonic war, with every port in Europe closed against her commerce, she was yet able to hold her own, how much more wiU that be the case when she has a colonial em pire rapidly increasing in power, in wealth, in influence, and in position. (Hear, hear.) It is true that we stand in danger, as we have stood in danger again and again in Canada, of being plunged into war and suf fering aU ite dreadful consequences, as the result of causes over which we have no con trol, by reason of their connection. This, however, did not intimidate us. At the very mention of the prospect of a war some time ago, how were the feelings of the people aroused from one extremity of British Ame rica to the other, and preparations made for meeting its worst consequences. Althouo-h the people of this country are fully awa're of the horrors of war — should a war arise unfortunately, between the United States' and England, and we all pray it never may —they are still ready to encounter all perils of that kind, for the sake of the connecrion with England. There is not one adverse voice, not one adverse opinion on that point. We all feel the advantages we derive from our connection with England. So long as that aUiance is maintained, we enjoy, under her protection, the privileges of constitu tional liberty according to the British sys tem. We wiU enjoy here '^hat which is the great test of constitutional freedom — we will have the rights of the minority respected. (Hear, hear.) In all countries the rights of the majority take care of themselves, but it is only in countries like England, enjoy ing constitutional liberty, and safe from the tyrany of a single despot or of an unbridled democracy, that the rights of minorities are regarded. So long, too, as we form a portion of the British Empire, we shall have the ex ample of her free . institutions, of the high standard of the character of her statesmen and public men, of the purity of her legis lation, and the upright administration of her laws. In this younger country one great advantage of our connection with Great Britain: will be, that, under her auspices, inspired by her example, a portion of her empire, our public men wiU be actu ated by principles similar to those which actuate the statesmen at home. These al though not material, physical benefits, of which you can make an arithmetical calcu lation, are of such overvi^helming advantage to our future intereste and standing as a nation, that to obtain them is well worthy of any sacrifices we may be called upon to make, and the people of this country are ready to make them. (Cheers.) We should i feel, also, sincerely grateful to benificenf Providence that we have had the opportun ity vouchsafed us of calmly considering this great constitutional change, this peaceful revolution — that we have not been hurried into it, like the United States, by the ex igencies of war — that we have not had a violent revolutionary period forced on us, as in other nations, by hostUe action from with-i out, or by domestic dissensions within. Here', we are in peace and prosperity, under the fostering government of Great Britain— a dependent people, with a government having only a limited and delegated au thority, and yet allowed, without restric tion, and without jealousy on the part of the Mother Country, to legislate for our selves, and peaoefuUy and deliberately to' consider and determine the future of Cana da and of British North America. It is our happiness to know the expression of the will ot our Gracious Sovereign, through Her Ministers, that we have her full sanction for our deliberations, tbat Her only solicitude is that we shaU adopt a system which shall be really for our advantage, and that She prom ises to sanction whatever conclusion after full deliberation we may arrive at as to the best 45 mode of securing the well-being, — the present and future JitoSperity bf British America. — (Cheers.) It is' our privilege and happiness to be in such a position, and we cannot be too grateful for the blessings thus conferred upon us. (Hear, hear.) I must apologize fot having detained you so long — for having gone perhaps too much into tedious details with reference to the questions bearing on the Cohstitution now submitted to this House. — (Cries of " no, no" and "go on.") ^— In conclusion, I would again implore the House not to let this opportunity to pass. It is an opportunity that may never recur. At the risk of repeating myself, I would say, it was only by a happy concurrence of cir cumstances, that we were enabled to bring this great question to its present position. If we do not take advantage ofthe time, if we show ourselves unfequal to the occasion, it may never return, and we shall hereafter bitterly and unavailingly regret having failed to embrace the happy opportunity now offered of founding a great nation under the fostering care of Great Britain, and our Sovereign Lady, Queen Victoria. (Loud cheers, amidst vfhich the honorable gentle man resumed his seat). The House, at eleven, p.m., adjourned. LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. TlIESDAY, 7th Fehrwa/ry, 1865. Hon. Me. CAMPBELL said that yester day he had promised to give to the House to-day an explanation of the provision con- taitifed m the 14th resolution relating to the selection of members for the Legislative Council of the General Legislature. This resolution read as foUows : — 14. The first selection of the Members of the Legislative Council shall be made, except as re gards Prince Edward Island, from the Legisla tive Councils of the various Provinces, so far as a sufficient number be found qualified and wil ling to serve ; such Members shall be appointed by the Crown at the recommendation of the Gfeneral Executive Government, upon the nomi nation of the respective Local Govsrnments, and in such nomination due regard shall be had to the Claims of the Members of the Legislative Council ofthe Opposition in each Province, so that all political parties may as nearly as possible be fairly represented. And under it the first recommendation for the appointment of Legislative Councillors from Canada would, should the Confederation scheme bo adopted, come from the existing Government of this province. In making such recommendations, the spirit of the reso lution would be carefully observed, and both sides in this House and as well Ufe as elected members, be equaUy considered and fairly re presented in the new Parliament. Hon. Mr.FLINT begged to inquire whether the resolutions before the House were in all respects the same as those sent to the members. Hon. Mr. CAMPBELL said they were not in one particular precisely as first printed, there being a clause in those before the House to allow Now Brunswick to impose a duty on timber and logs, and Nova Scotia on coal, which was not found in the first ; as for the other provinces, the imposition of such dutie? was reserved to the General Legislature. (Hear, hear, from Mr. Currie.) Hon. Mr.;CAMPBELL said he hoped that honorable members would rather aid in further ing the scheme than take pleasure in detect ing the supposed causes of opposition. (Hear.) Hon. Mr. CURRIE asked whether the dif ference between the two sets of resolutions was merely a misprint. Hon. Mr. CAMPBELL could not say whether it was owing to a misprint or to an error in the manuscript. Hon. Mr. CURRIE again asked whether the members of the Conference had not signed the instrument containing its resolutions ? Hon.'Mr. CAMPBELL could only say that the resolutions now before the House truly and expressly represented the conclusions the Conference had arrived at. (Hear, hear.) Those conclusions had not been changed. Hon. Mr. CURRIE then rose and said that the measure now before the House was the most important one ever submitted to a Colonial Legislature, and he hoped to be able to approach it with entire freedom from party spirit, and Without the purpose of finding out unnecessary objections. He hoped he would, at all times, be able to judge of the measures presented with the fairness and candour of a Canadian and a British subject. At the out set he would, however, say, that; the project now before the House ha:d taken the country by surprise. The first time he had ever ad-' dressed the House he was reported to have spoken thus : — That hy a course of legislation alike moderate, prudent aud upright, it will yet be the lot of some present to live and see the day when Canada will be the centre of a noble British North American Confederacy extending from the Atlantic to the 46 Pacific — a Confederacy not bom in war, or bap tised in blood, but a Confederacy united by the bonds of friendship, held together hy the strong ties of friendly commerce and mutual interests, and cemented by a common allegiance to the throne of Great Britain. From this quotation it would be seen that then he was in favor of a Confederation of the several British North American Provinces, but he little thought then that within two short years such a scheme would be .submitted to Parliament. He was still in favor of Confeder ation — (hear) — but it must be a Confederation founded on a just and equitable basis, upon principles which would be alike advantageous to all parte and injurious to none. If any other kind of Confederation were agreed upon, it would contain within itself the seeds of decay and dissolution. The project had been elaborately presented to the House by the gal lant knight at the head of the Government, and by his able coUeague, the Hon. Commis sioner, of Crown Lands, and what reasons had they alleged in favor of it ? He confessed he had been quite surprised at some of the argu- mente of the former. That hon. gentleman had stated that if the scheme were rejected, whether we would or would not, Canada would be forced by violence into the Ameri can Union, or placed upon an inclined plane which would carry us there. Now when men occupying high positions like the hon. mem ber, assumed the responsibUity of giving ut terance to such startUng opinions, they ought to be prepared to support them with very cogent reasons. Hon. Sir E. P. TACH:6— I'am quite ready to give them. Hon. Mr. CURRIE— If the case were as represented, it must be because we are quite de fenceless, and that except in union with the Lower Provmces we were at the mercy of the United States. But what did the honorable member mean by the inclined plane ? For his part^he had not heard of any desire on the part of the people of this ^province to change their political institutions and turn from the glorious flag under which many of them had fought and bled. Had anything been beard from abroad, to the effect that unless we accepted this scheme, England would cast us off or let ^ slide down the inclined plane? (Laughter) Yet these were the sole, or at least the chief reasons alleged by that honorable member! Let us then ask ourselves whether the scheme provided a remedy for the threatened evils W ould Canada indeed be so physically strength ened searward and land-ward by this aUiance, that in the event of aggression on the part of the United States, we would be rendered quite safe? It was easy to say that union gave strength, but would this union reaUy give us strength ? He could understand that union with a people contiguous would do so, but union with provinces 1,500 miles apai't at the ex treme points, was a very different thing, and more likely to be a source of weakness. In his mind it was like tying a small twine at the end of a large rope and saying it strength ened the whole line. When the honorable member said that Canada would be supported by all the military power of the Lower Prov inces, we should not run away with the idea that this meant anything. What were the facts ? Upon looking at the census of those provinces he found that the male population between the ages of 21 and 50 — the extreme limits at which men bore arms — was 128,457, of which number 63,289 were chiefly employed on the water, that is, in the coasting trade and the fisheries, leaving 65,000 to assist in the de fence of Canada. (Hear, hear.) Now, sup pose a draft of one-third of these was made fbr military exigencies — and one-third would be a large proportion — we would have less than 22,000 men avaUable for the service. Why, that would not be enough to defend their own frontier from aggression. Without referring to the causes wfiich had led to the formation of the present Government, or to the extraordinary conduct of some of the pub lic men composing it, he must nevertheless allude to the express objects they professed to iiuve in view in coming together. And ths principal object was ga scheme of federation, but not the scheme now offered to the House. If he understood the matter at all, the Gov ernment was organized on the basis of a Con- federa,tion of Upper and Lower Canada first, in which Confederation the Lower Provinces might afterwards be admitted if they wished it. Hon. Mr. CAMPBELL— Not so. Hon. Mr. CURRIE— He was not surprised at the dissent of the Honorable Commissioner of Crown Lands, for the leaders in both Houses had placed the larger object, that is the organization of a general Confederation, as the primary one. But the basis of the organization had been reducedjto writing, and he held in his hand the paper which recapitu lated the conditions. They were as follows :— Ihe Government are prepared to pledge themselves to bring in a measure, next session, iov the purpose of removing existing difficulties by introducing the Federal principle into Canada, coupled with such provision as wiU 47 permit the Maritime Provinces and the North- West Territory to be incorporated into the same system of Government." Hon. Mr. CAMPBELL— The resolutions on the table fulfilled that promise. Hon. Mr. CURRIE— Well, the honorable member's colleague, the Provincial Secretary, did not mention the Lower Provinces other wise than incidentally at the great meeting in South Oxford, and the Intercolonial Railway not at aU. If his position (Hon. Mr. Currie's) was correct, that the Confederation of Canada alone was the basis of the coalition, then they had not carried out their pledge, and he pro nounced the scheme now propounded as the authorized production of a number of self- appointed delegates, and not the measure the country expected. Then he had been sur prised to find that in the Conference Canada had so small a representation. He very wU- lingly admitted that we had very able men there, but they were few compared with the whole number of the Conference, and did not fairly represent the population and wealth of the country. The Honorable Commissioner of Crown Lands had said, to be sure, that it did not make much difference as the votes were not taken by numbers but by the provinces ; in other words, that Prince Edward Island, with ite population of 80,000 souls, had as much to say as Canada with ite millions. Hon. Mr. CAMPBELL— The two sec tions of Canada voted separately. Hon. Mr. CURRIE— That was not much better, for it made Prince Edward Island equal to Upper Canada, with nearly 1,500,000 of population. But all this apart, he main tained the country was not prepared to pass judgment upon this momentous question. It waa the greatest matter that had ever been presented for its consideration, and it should be the aim of aU to have it perfectly under stood and approved of before it was adopted. We should seek to frame a Constitution which would last for ages. K any portion of the country were seriously opposed to the project, and it were carried through in spite of them, a wrong would be inflicted which would per petuate iteelf in all coming time. If passed against the sense of a majority of Upper or Lower Canada, the act might lead to an agi tation such as had never been witnessed, and which might be fraught with the most disas trous consequences. To prove that the coun try was not prepared for this sudden change, he would ask how many pubUc meetings had been held in Upper Canada for the purpose of disoassbg it ? He had heard of but one, and that not very influential, where both sides of the question were discussed. The people^had in fact been waiting for the programme, '"and to this moment it had not been supplied—cer tainly not in all its detaUs. In a matter of this momentous importance, upon which the well-being of millions in the future might so much depend, he sincerely trusted tbe country would not be hurried, but that full time for discussion would be given to enable it to arrive at a safe verdict. (Hear.) It was said that aU the Governments interested were in favor of the project, and it was weU known that there was to be a dissolution of ParUament in one of the provinces ; if so, where was the necessity for haste in Canada, unless indeed it was for the purpose of unduly influencing tbe other provinces? When the union between Upper and Lower Canada was effected, there had been no such unpatience of delay. The Imperial Government had brought in a bUl, copies of which were sent out, and submitted to the Parliament of Upper Canada — Lower Canada then had no Pariia ment to consult, and in its case there was less need of delay than now — the biU was sent home again approved, though meetings were held in Lower Canada strongly opposed to the measure, and to this day it is said it was forced upon an unwiUing people. (Hear hear, from some of the French members.) If time was then aUowed, why should not time be aUowed now, when a much more im portant union was in question ? (Hear, hear.) Had the views of such eminent men as Lord Eilenborough and Lord Durham been diUy appreciated in 1839, this Parliament would not now be met fbr the purpose of dissolving a union which had been unprofitable to one section, and unsatisfactory to the other. (Hear, hear, derisively.) He would now take the liberty to quote the views of Lord Dur ham, to which he had just aUuded. They were as follows : I am averse to every plan that haa been pro posed for giving an equal number of members to the two Provinces, in order to obtain the tempor ary end ot out-numbering the French, because I think the same object wiU be obtained without any violation of the principles of representation, and without any such appearance of injustice in the scheme, as would set public opinion both in Bug- land and America strongly against it; and because, when emigration shall have increased the English population in the Upper Province, the adoption of such a principle would operate to defeat this very purpose it is intended to serve. It appears to me that any such elective arrange ment founded oa the present Provincial Divisions 48 would tend to defeat the purpose of Union, and perpetrate the idea of disunion. He cited these pregnant words to indicate the danger of resorting to temporary expe dients for the purpose of overcoming grave difficulties. If hon. members desired to es tablish a union under whioh the provinces would grow in wealth, power and importance, they must endeavor to make it as nearly infal- Uble as fallible men could. He had already remarked that there had been but little dis cussion in Upper Canada on this subject, and he felt it iU became him, representing, as he did, a large constituency, to vote approbation before the people understood what the vote involved. In the Lower Provinces the people and the press seemed aUve to the subject, for the latter teemed with articles for and against, aU tending to give information which our population had not received. But speaking of the Lower Provinces, he was reaUy afraid that some pubUc men down there were dis posed to exaggerate the advantages of a union with Canada, just as some of ours seemed prone to magnify the riches of the Lower Provinces. If we were going into a partnership, which he hoped would last if entered into— (hear, hear,) — we should not attempt to deceive each other, for if tbe people found they had been deceived, the compact would be short-lived. To give honorable members some idea of the manner in which the subject was presented by leading men in the provinces, he would read them an extract from the speech of a Mr. Lynch, at a large meeting in Halifax, as reproduced by one of the organs of the Government there. Hon. Mr. CAMPBELL— What organ? Hon. Mr. CURRIE- Tbey had so many organs they did not seem to know them all. (Laughter.) He would now read from the speech in question : — But we are told by others that we had better have nothing to do with Canada, because she is bankrupt. Canada b mkrupt ! I wish we were all such bankrupts. She is overflowing with wealth. This is now rapidly developing itself, and must eventually place her among the first nations of the earth. I have travelled over aud examined that great country, and it would take more than all the time allotted to me to tell you of her wealtli and resources. Her rivers are among the largest in the world, and her lakes are mighty inland oceans. I never had any idea of their extent until I stood ou the shore of Lake Erie, saw before me a large square rigged ship, and was told that such was the class of vessels that navigated those waters. Why, sir, 7,000,000 tons of shipping trade upon those mighty lakes. Again, look at the growth of the population. Sixty yeara ago it was 60,000, now it is 3,000,900. Upper Canada doubled her population in ten years, and Toronto, in the beginning of this century the abode of the red man of the forest, is now one of the finest cities of British America, with a population of 40,000. The soil is of the richest description, indeed it is only too mueh so. In some places rich alluvial deposit is found to the depth of 50 feet, and in many instances landa have yielded their crops for years without the aid, of a spadeful of manure. Canada has not only the greatest yield but the best wheat in America. It is a well-known fact that the people of the United States in exporting their best flour mix it to a large extent with Canadian wheat, and in Order to give you an idea of the increaaed growth of it I would inform you that while in ten years, the wheat crop increased in the States 50 pei; cent, (an immense increase), it in the same tirae in Canada increased 400 per cent. The average crop is equal to that of the best wheat growing countries in Europe, while some places have yielded the almost incredible quantity of 100 bushels to the acre. The yield of last year was 27,000. He only wished that this honorable gentle^ man alone had been mistaken, but even thg Hon. Mr. TiLLEY, one of the most distinguished statesmen of New Brunswick, had made the statement that our tariff was in fact only an eleven per cent, tariff. But aU the errors were not on that side, for they need but tum to, a celebrated speech of one of our own leading men — a speech regarded almost as an important state paper — and there it was stated that, the , United Provinces would become the third maritime power in the world. (Hear, Hear.) England, it said, was first, then, the United States, and the speaker doubted if France , could take the tlurd rank before us. Our sea-going tonnage would be five milUons, and our lake tonnage seven mUlions. These were , vast figures, and it almost bewildered the mind, to conceive their magnificent proportions.,, (Laughter.) Now supposing aU these vessels, were 500 tons each, it would require 14,000 to make up the sum, but unfortunately the census showed that we had but 808 sailors to, navigate them — rather a smaU number it must, be admitted for 14,000 ships. (Great laugh ter.) The way the mistake — to use the mildest expression — was made, was, simple enough. The vessels were entered at the Custom,, Houses every time they came in and left port, and as some of them came into port 200 times in the year, as at Toronto for instance, their tonnage was counted 200 times. It was easy in this way to run up our inland marine to , seven mUlions of tons. But then if the pro ducts of Canada were as great, as Mr. Ly;nch: represented, why of course we would require 49 all those ships to carry away all that wheat. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) He would be glad if he could tell as fine a story, but he could not do that and at the same time tell the truth. Then the Lower Provinces were told that our tariff averaged eleven per cent., but was it so ? [The honorable member was here quoting from a speech of Hon. Mr. TiLLEY, to which he had before alluded.] Hon. Mr. ROSS— Read on. Hon. Mr. CURRIE, reading on, imme diately came to a paragraph explaining the 11 per cent, to mean the average of duties on the value of aU imported goods, a large proportion of which were duty free. Hon. Mr. ROSS — The statement was cor rect. (Hear, hear.) Hon. MR.CURRIE then proceeded to show the truth in regard to the duties on staples and articles in domestic use in Canada. He said if honorable gentlemen would tum to the Trade and Navigation retums for 1864, they would fiaid that in the first half of that year we imported and paid the foUowing dutiea on eight kinds of commodities : Value. Duty. '"'" Cottons^ $3,277,985 $644,381 ' ¦ "Woolens 2,537,669 499,084 Tea, lbs., 3.048,567 1,959,674 275,124 Iron and hardware 776,225 151.422 Linen 421,543 84;i.36 Hats and Caps 281,197 65,546 Sugar 779,907 376,189 Sugar, refined 9,989 6,260 Coffee, green 89,016 20,449 $2,112,593 Thus hon. gentlemen would see we pay more than fifty per cent, on our sugar, nearly twenty-three per cent, on coffee, while upon tea we pay about twenty-six per cent. He was afraid that if the present condition of Canada was calmly considered wo would be found going into the union in a state far different from the glowing representations of Hon. Mr. Lynch. Let hon. members look at the trade of Canada for half of the year 1864, and they would find that the balance against us was $9,999,000. Then there was the interest upon the public debt ; interest upon loans to private individuals; bank dividends payable abroad, for much of the stock of our banks was held out of the province ; the interest to loan companies and others ; all to be added to the debit balance, and the picture of wealth conjured up would present a very different as pect. Indeed, he wondered how, with all these burdens, the country had bome tip so weU, — ¦ 8 In the next place, he objected to the manner in which the scheme had been brought down. Why, if the Government desired the House to vote favorably, did they not act and speak understandingly ? Why did they not at once bring in the schemes for the local govemments and the estimated cost of the Intercolonial Railway ? He (Hon. Mr. Currie) did not ob ject to the principle of Confederation. (Hear, hear.) No, and he believed there would be the most perfect unanimity on the subject, as there was among the delegates as to the prin ciple of Confederation, but he asked to have, as part of the scheme, the cost of the railway, whioh seemed to be part and parcel of it. We knew little of this project, where it was to commence and where to end, or how many ends it was to have. We heard there was to be one branch from Truro to Pictou ; and then it was said again that the road must pass through the valley of the St. John, and end in that city. Were we to accept the project without inform ation ? Were we to have a road to Halifax ? to purchase the Grand Trunk to Riviere du Loup and the link from Truro to Halifax, aU of them to enter and form part of the national railway ? Notwithstanding the admitted talent of the delegates, he contended that a manifest injustice had been done to Canada, and espe ciaUy to Upper Canada, in the distribution of the subsidies to the local governments. Hon. gentlemen must bear in mind that the subsidies change not with population, but remain fixed. They were as follows ; — Upper Canada $1,116,873 00 Lower Canada 889,248 00 Nova Scotia 264,000 00 New Brunswick $201,000 63,000 Prince Edward Island. 64,03589,043 NewfoBudland 98,110 270,890 264.000 00 153,728 00 369,000 00 $3,066,84-9 00 If a person was proposing to enter into a partnership he would naturally inquire into the assets of the other members of the intended firm. We knew what our assets were. We had the finest canals in the world, which had cost many millions. Hon. Mr. ROSS— And they pay. Hon. Mr. CURRIE— Place toUs on the St. Lawrence Canals and you will see what they pav . There waa one canal that did pay, the Welland. In 1861 this work alone earned 50 a net revenue of $184,289 50, over and above the costs of repair and management ; and if you add to that amount the tolls unwisely re funded, $56,474 63, you have an amount equal to five per cent, on the total expendi ture on the WeUand Canal, as shewn in the Report of the Commissioner of Public Works, up to the 1st January, 1862, and a margin of $7,436 to the credit of this work. Then we had the St. Lawranoe Canals, and if they did not pay it was because of the extravagance of the management and the system of toll on those works. (Hear.) It was reported that some people believed if we could only get Confederation we would have enough to pay for both the general and local govemments, and so mxich more to spare that we would not know what to do with our money. What would be the revenue of the Confederation ? Taking the year 1S63 as the basis, we find the revenues of the proposed Confederation for that year, from customs and excise, to be as foUows : Canada $5,999,320 98 Newfoundland .$496,890 Prince Edward Island.. 153,520 Nova Scotia 861,989 New Brunswick 768,353 2,280,752 00 $8,280,072 98 We will now consider the burdens to be assumed by the Confederation. Interest on the debt of Canada, $3,812, 514 01 ; interest on the debts of New Brunswick and Nova Scotha, of 815,000,000, say $750,000; in terest on the debt of Newfoundland, of $946,000, and the debt of Prince Edward Island, of $240,673— $59,333. Add to this the interest on the cost of constructing the Intercolonial Railway, not less than $1,000,000 yearly, supposing it were to cost us but $20,- 000,000, and the amount to be spent yearly for defensive purposes, $1,000,000. And assuming that civil government and the cost of legislation should be no more for the Con federation than for Canada, which is certainly a reasonable view, we have for civil govem ment, $430,572 47 ; for legislation, $627,- 377 92; judges' salaries. Lower Canada, $115,755 55 ; judges' salaries. Upper Canada, $157,690 33 ; emigration and quarantine, $57,406 32 ; ocean and river service, $511,- 356 40 ; lighthouses and coaste, $102,724 75 ; fisheries, $22,758 41 ; cost of collecting revenue and excise in Canada, $401,661 41 ; local subsidies to provinces, $3,056,849. Thus shewing a balance against revenue of $3,825,- 781 89 ; and if the canals are to be enlarged, as promised, an additional debt must be created of $12,000,000 for such purpose, — another annual charge of $600,000, — or a total balance against revenue of $4,425,781 89. These gentlemen from the east were going to give ns the Intercolonial Railway and enlarge our canals, but if to enlarge the canals, why were not the canals put in the Constitution ? Hon. Mr. DICKSON— They did not want to throw cold water upon it. (Laughter,) Hon. Mr. CURRIE— Why not give a guarantee for their enlargement ? He found that the desirable improvement would entail an expense of $12,000,000. As to the local subsidy, he regarded it as a farce, or as honey spread out to catch flies. As to the argument that the rejection of the scheme would injure our credit, he would ask whether the bond holders wotUd not much prefer our present financial condition to one of fifteen miUions of increased indebtedness, with nothing of value to show for it. If the people of Eng land knew that Confederation and the Inter colonial Railway meant an increase of fifty per cent, on our tariff, they would not be so anxious for it. As to the representation in the Confederated Legislative Couneii, it was proposed to give Upper Canada and Lower Canada twenty-four members each^ and to the Lower Provinces twenty-eight. That is, the 780,000 souls in the Lower Provinces would have four members more than Upper Canada with its million and a half. This proved that though Canada had talented men in the Con ference, they cither forgot our interests or sat there powerless. When the Legislative Council of Canada was made elective, his honorable friend near him (Hon. Mr. Chris tie!) had stood up for the right of Upper Canada, as the Delegates should have done in the Conference. On the second reading cf the bUl to change the constitution ofthe Legis lative Council, on the 14th March, 1856,— Mr._ Brown moved, seconded by Mr. Foley, That it be an instruction to the Committee to amend the bill, by providing that the members of the Legislative Council shall be elected for four years, one-half retiring every second year. Mr.GouLD moved, seconded by Mr. Weight, That it be an instruction to the Committee to amend the bill by providing that the constituen cies shall be arranged according to population, without regard to the division line between Upper and Lower Canada. This amendment was supported by the Hon' Messrs. Aikins, Brown, Cameron, Cheis- TiE,_ Foley, Freeman, Wilson, and many leading reformers in Upper Canada. 51 And on the third reading of the bill on the 27th March,— Mr. Hartmax moved, seconded by Mr. Chris tie, That the bill be recommitted to a Com mittee of the whole House, with a view to ar range the electoral divisions so as to embrace witniu each, as nearly as practicable, an equal population, and without regard to a division line between Upper and Lower Canada. This amendment, although supported by Jlessrs. Brown, Christie, and twenty other Upper Canada members, was not carried. If representation by population were right in 1856, was it not equally right in 1865 ? But it might be said that the union was to be a federal one, whereas it was no such thing. It was neither federal nor legislative, but a mongrel between both. If the representation had been properly arranged, there would have been no necessity for honorable members vacating their seats. In that case. Upper Canada would have had 30, Lower Canada 24, and the Lower Provinces 18. Yesterday the Honorable Commissioner of Crown Lands had given reasons for aboUshing the elective principle as applied to this House ; but not over a year ago he had lauded the system, and he (Hon. Mr. Currie) had not heard the life members say a word in opposition. The system bad got a fair trial of eight years, and bad proved satisfactory, and would a few self- constituted delegates, with a dash of the pen, destroy that which had received the sanction of the country? He was never sent to this House to vote away its constitution^(hear, hear) — and before endorsing any such propo sition he would wish to go to his constituents, and if they said yes, he would not oppose — (hear, hear)— but without that permission, he was not going to give a vote which might have the effect of giving him his seat for life. (Hear, hear.) He had heard of Lower Canada domination, but if this was the first taste of eastem domination, he wished no more of it. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) Hon. Mr. CAMPBELL— It was not a peculiarity of Canada, but the judgment of the whole Conference. (Hear.) Hon. Mr. CURRIE— He then presumed it was not the proposition of the honorable member that the seat the people had given him should be given to the Crown; but it seemed he had passed under the domination of the Lower Provinces. (Laughter.) In 1849, the Legislature had made provision for the support of common schools in Canada, and had set aside one million acres of the best lands for that noble purpose. The lands, all situate in Upper Canada, had been sold, and a fund of a million and a quarter accumu lated, but with another stroke of the pen this, too, was to be scored out. In 1862, the Government of the day had brought down a bUl to amend the Separate School Act of Upper Canada, and without expressing an opinion as to ite merits, he might say it had produced a very strong feeling of indignation, A mass meeting was held in Toronto to con demn the bill, and the people were so exas perated that they had called upon certain members of the Govemment to resign. Other meetings were held, viz. : — Meeting at Harrington, North Oxford, 25th March, 1863 : Resolved, — That the Hon. W. Maodougall has betrayed the interests of his constituents for the sake of office. Meeting at EastNissouri, 6th April, 1863 Resolved, — That this raeetingr, while viewing the manner in which the Hon. Wm. Macdoi'GALl has betrayed the interests of his constituents in supporting Mr. Scott's Separate School Bill, be- lives it to be his duty to resign his seat in the Provincial Parliaraent as member for the North Riding of 0.xford. He had read these resolutions to show the feeling which then prevaUed, and he might have quoted articles to prove that the measure was regarded as a most iniquitous one. He would give one or two from the Globe : — We can hardly believe that a government based on the double majority, will permit an al teration in our common school system in defiance of the vote of an Upper Canadian majority. March 20th. — The prospects of Mr. Scott's bill in the Upper House are not very bright. When it was brought up from the Assembly, nobody rose to move the first reading, and Sir Etienne Tache, who, it will be remembered, introduced this last Upper Canada Separate School Bill, whioh passed into law, was about to assume this responsibility, when Mr. McCrba, the newly elected Councillor for the Western Division, came to the rescue. The Speakeb then very improperly suggested Mr. Aikins as the seconder, an office which the member for the Home Division promptly declined. No one else appearing, Mr. Letellie-k, a French Canadian, seconded the motion. This is French domination with a vengeance. We are not as tonished to find that there is a disposition to give the bill strong opposition, regardless of the con sequences to the government. April 11.— The h'.'A passed tho second reading in the Legislative Council, 11 to 13 frora Upper Canada. In spite of every temptation. Upper Can.ada stands true to her school system. The bill may pass as other infamies have passed our Legisla- 52 ture before, hut it will not be by Upper Canada votes. If our school system is destroyed. Lower Canada must bear the shame of it. April 21st. — Although the bill has passsd both Houses, and no number of meetings can stay its progress, it is well for tbe people of Up per Canada to pronounct upon its merits. They are deeply hurt and mortified by this treatment they have received from Lower Canadians and traitors among their own representatives. A sense of personal wrong and injury exists which we have never witnessed in so great a degree before. The iron of Lower Canada domination seems to have touched the soul ofthe people and the wound rankles. The word contempt does not express the feeling which is manifested. There is a spice of bitterness about it which takes it out of that category. But, notwithstanding these evidences of dis satisfaction, the act became law, and it re mained for the present Government, by this scheme, to perpetuate the law. He was sur prised that the Govemment, framed as it was, should become parties to such a scheme. They had not yet done with the school question. They proposed to protect the Protestant minority of Lower Canada, and a petition was on the table exhibiting what was desired. This was proof enough that the people were not satisfied ; and whether or not the scheme of Confederation were adopted, the Government should bring in a measure to do the petition ers justice. Then from LTpper Canada the Roman Catholics asked to be placed in a posi tion precisely similar to that which the Pro testants of Lower Canada were seeking, and if each of these minorities were suffering in justice, why should not their complaints be redressed before a Confederation took place ? Let these measures prelude Confederation, and let not Pai'liament be asked to proceed blindfold. He was satisfied that if the Inter colonial Railway project wore taken out of the scheme, we would not hear much about it afterwards. Some leading men in Halifax had said, " the Railway first, and Confedera tion next." Hon. Mr. SANBORN— Hon. Mr. Tilley had said that. Hon. Mr. CURRIE— Then it would be better to try the Confederation without the railway. It would, after all, be much easier for the members from the Lower Provinces to come to Ottawa than it used to be for the members from Sandwich to go to Montreal at the time of tbe union. The Grand Trunk Railway had cost tlie province a vast sum, but then it had been of vast service to the countiy. But where is the company that would keep the Litercolonial Railway running for its earnings, the road and the rolling stock being made over to them as a gift ? Suppose a merchant from Montreal wants to go to England, which road wiU he prefer ? Why, he would go by way of Portland. Would any produce be sent over such a road ? How much wheat was there sent over the Grand Trunk, even in winter ? Hon. Mr. FERRIER— A great deal. Hon. Mr, CURRIE— How much from Montreal ? And wby did we hear complaints from Huron and Bruce ? SEVERAL VOICES— They have no rail way there. (Laughter.) Hon. Mr. CURRIE— Was there not the Buffalo and Lake Huron Railway passing through Huron ? It was our duty to hesitats and not to press on at railway speed, but to act like prudent men. We were sent here to place a check upon hasty legislation. But was there ever such hasty legislation as this ? Yet as the Government were strong in Parliament, they might attempt to press the measure with out the consent of the people. If they do, how ever, pursue such a course, they will perhaps receive a check in Nova Scotia or New Bruns wick, for in these provinces they had no inten tion to pass the measure without a free and full disoussion. Hon. Mr. ROSS— Why, if it was good for them as the hon. member said, they might be glad to do it. Hon. Mr. McCREA— If it was so unfa vorable for Canada it must be in the same degree favorable to the Lower Provinces. Hon. Mr. CURRIE— Oh, that does not by any means foUow ; they are a frugal, indus trious and inteUigent people, and it may be considered inadvisable 'by them to join a people who, in the short term of ten years, by a course of extravagance and prodigaHty increased the expenses of their govemment nearly four hun dred per cent., independent of the increase of the public debt. They might also call to mind the Grand Trunk swindles. Hon. Mr. ROSS— When the hon. member said that there had been Grand Trunk swin dles, he said what was not correct. Hon. Mr. CURRIE— Perhaps he used a wrong term. He meant Grand Trunk frauds. Those people might hesitate about connecting themselves with a people that had almost brought themselves to the verge of national bankruptcy, and loaded themselves with such a heavy tariff, they might recall to mind the political dishonesty of our public men, men who had so maligned and blackened the pub lic character of each other as to require a wider stago and a new audience to witness 53 their future acte. They woul'd also observe that aU formerly connected with the Grand Trunk were uiging this scheme forward. He then accused the Govemment of bad faith in bringing down these resolutions, instead of a measure simply for the Canadas ; that the reform party only committed themselves to the latter scheme when Mr. Brown entered the Cabinet, but now it was only secondary. To bear this out he read the following reso lution adopted by that party : — Moved by Mr. Hope McKenzie, and second ed by Mr. McGivERiN — That we approve of the course which has been pursued by Mr. Brown in the negotiations with the Government, and that we approve of the project of a Federal union of the Canadas, with provision for its extension to the Maritime Provinces and the North-Western territory, as one based on which the eonstitetional difficulties now existing should be settled. He was not personaUy opposed to Con federation in iteelf, but this measure was so defective that he could not support it, bearing, as it did, the seeds of decay apparent in ite details. He heartily concurred in the views expressed recently at Halifax,by a distinguished Upper Canada Statesman — (Mr. Brown): — " On a survey of the whole case, I do think that there is no doubt as to the high advan tages that would result from a union of all the colonies, provided that terms of union could be found just to all the contracting parties, and so framed as to secure harmony in the future administration of affairs. But it were wrong to conceal for a moment that the whole merit of the scheme of union may be completely marred by the character of its details." He asked who would not say that the details of this measure did not so mar as to spoil the scheme. If we are to have a Con federation, let it be put upon a proper and permanent foundation, one that wiU be of ad vantage to this young and vigorous province, and he expressed the hope that only such a scheme would be sanctioned by Parliament. (Hear, hear, and applause.) It being nearly six o'clock, Hon. Mr. Ross moved to adjourn the debate till the morrow, whieh was carried. The House then adjoumed. LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY. Tuesday, February 7, 1865. Atty. Gen. CARTIER rose to continue the debate on Confederation. He said that he approached this subject with a certain amount of diffidence, knowing it was not tho first time he had had the honoj of speaking upon it in the Lower Provinces and elsewhere. He felt that this was a momentous occasion, as for anything that he said on this grave question, he was responsible to his constituents and the country. Respecting this grave ques tion, it had been said that the TACHfc-MAC- DONALD Government had taken upon them selves the solution of a problem which was not at the time of its formation before the coun try, and had not even been mooted. Those saying so were ignorant of the parliamentary history ofthe past few years. He would briefly refer to the history of this great question, as far as it had been brought before the Parlia ment and country. When the Cartier-Mac- DONALD Govemment was constructed, after the downfall of the Brown-Dorion Adminis tration, a programme of the policy of the former was laid before Parliament. Among the subjecte contained in this programme of 7th August, 1858, was one referred to in the following terms : " The late Government felt themselves bound to cany out the law of the land respecting the scat of Government, but, in the face of the recent vote on that subject, the Administration did not consider themselves warranted in incurring any expenditure for the public buUdings, until Parliament has had an opportunity of considering the whole ques tion in all its bearings ; and the expediency of a Federal Union of the British North American Provinces will be anxiously considered, and communication with the Home Government and the Lower Provinces entered into forth with on the subject ; and the result of this communication will be submitted to Parlia ment at its next session. The Govemment will, during the recess, examine into the organ ization and working of the public departments, and carry out such administrative reforms as wiU be conducive to economy and ef&ciency." Here was this scheme of a union of tbe pro vinces mentioned in the programme of the Cartier-Macdonald Govemment, in 1858. He merely quoted this passage to show that neither Parliament nor the country was now taken by surprise with regard to this scheme. (Hear, hear.) We had had general and spe cial elections since 1858, and to pretend that 54 this subject, which had been so often canvassed, was new to the country, was to assert an un truth. At tbe close of that session, Sir Edmund Head, in his Speech proroguing Parliament, made use of the following language : — " I propose, in the course of the recess, to communicate with Her Majesty's Govern ment, and with the Govemments of the sister colonies, on another matter of very great im portance. I am desirous of inviting them to discuss witb us the principles on which abend of a federal character, uniting the Provinces of British North America, may perhaps hereafter be practicable." In accordance with that an nouncement of policy, a deputation was sent to England, composed of his then colleagues, Hons. IMcssrs. Galt aud Ross and himself We pressed the matter before the Imperial Govemment, whom we asked to authorize a meeting of delegates from the British North American Governments, to consider this sub ject and report upon it, said report to be com municated to the Colonial Secretary. Of course we wanted, at that time, to act with the sanction and approval of the Imperial Govern ment. We pressed the matter as strongly as we could before it. Of all the provinces that responded to the caU of the Imperial Govem ment, Newfoundland, he thought, was the only one whioh professed her readiness to appoint delegates when the opportune moment arrived. (Hear, hear.) Although the other provinces were not opposed to Confederation, still, as the question had not been brought conspicuously before their people, they did not Uke then to join in the measure and in the proceedings which the Canadian delegates had urged upon the Imperial Government in 1858. At this time the Canadian Delegates had a duty to perform towards the illustrious Administrator of the Government, Sir E. Head, to fulfil the promise he had made, on proroguing Parlia ment, by pressing the measure upon the atten tion of the Imperial Administration. The Canadian Government also kept its promise to_ report to the House the result of the mission to England, at the next session of Parliament. The hon. gentleman here read the despatch dated October, 1858, which was transmitted to the Imperial Government, set ting forth the sectional difficulties whioh had arisen between Upper and Lower Canada, principally on account of the former's demand for increased representation in ParUament, on the ground of its much larger population. Every one who knew anything of his past pub lic course was aware that he was opposed to the principle of representation by population while Upper ahd Lower Canada were under one Government. He did not regret his oppo sition. If such a measure had been passed, what would have been the consequence ? There would have been constant political warfare be tween Upper and Lower Canada. True it was that the members from Upper Canada, being in the majority, it might have been imagined they would have carried everything before them ; but as far as justice to Lower Canada was concerned, such might not have been the case. The consequence of representation by population would have been that one territoiy would have governed another, and this fact would have presented iteelf session after ses sion in the House, and day after day in the public prints. (Hear, hear.) The mo ment this principle had been conceded as the governing element, it would have initiated between the two provinces a warfare which would have been unremitting. (Hear, hear.) He wished that Upper Canada should un derstand him in this matter. He was ac cused of being opposed to Upper Canada's righte, because during fifteen or twenty years he had to oppose his honorable friend the President ofthe CouncU (Hon. Mr. Brown). His honorable coUeague took the ground that representation should be arranged according to population in each section of the prov ince. He (Hon. Mr. Cartier) had resisted that position, believing that the moment such a principle was applied, his honorable friend, who, no doubt, wanted to maintain tbe peace ful government of the country, would have been disappointed in his wish. It would have given rise to one of the bitterest struggles between the two provinces that ever took place between two nations. He did not mean to say that the majority from Upper Canada would have tyrannized over Lower Canada ; but the idea that Upper Canada, as a terri tory, had the preponderence in the Govem ment by a large number of representatives, would have been sufficient to generate that sectional strife to which he had "alluded. In 1858 he first saw that representation by population, though unsuited fbr appUcation as a governing principle as between the two pro vinces, would not involve the same objection if other partners were drawn in by a federation. In a struggle between two"— one a weak, and the other a strong party — the weaker could not but be overcome ; but if three parties were concerned, the stronger would not have the same advantage ; as when it was seen by the third that there was too much strength on ono side, the third would club with the weaker 55 combatant to resist the big fighter. (Cheers and laughter.) He did not oppose the principle of representation by population from an unwillingness to do justice to Upper Canada. He took this ground, how ever, that when justice was done to Upper Canada, it was his duty to see thatno injustice wasdoneto Lower Canada. Hedidnot entertain the slightest apprehension that Lower Canada's rights were in the least jeopardized by the provi sion that in the General Legislature the French Canadians of Lower Canada would have a smaller number of representatives than all the other origins combined . It would be seen by the resolutions that in the questions which would be submitted to the General Parliament there could be no danger to the rights and privi leges of either French Canadians, Scotchmen, Englishmen or Irishmen. Questions of com merce, of international communication, and all matters of general interest, would be dis cussed and determined in the General Legis lature ; but in the exercise of the functions of the General Government, no one could ap prehend that anything could be enacted which would harm or do injustice to persons of any nationaUty. He did not intend to go into the details of the question of Confederation, but merely to bring before the House the most conspicuous arguments in order to induce members to accept the resolutions submitted by the Government. Confederation was, as it were, at this moment almost forced upon us. We could not shut our eyes to what was going on beyond the lines, where a great struggle was going on between two Confederar cies, at one time forming but one Confederacy. We saw that a govemment, established not more than 80 years ago, had not been able to keep together the family of states which had broke up four or five years since. We could not deny that the struggle now in progress must necessarily influence our political exists ence. We did not know what would be the result of that great war — whether it would end in the establishment of two Confederacies or in one as before. However, we had to do with five colonies, inhabited by men of the same sympathies and interests, and in order to become a great nation they required only to be brought together under one General Govemment. The matter resolved itself into this, either we must obtain British North American Confederation or be absorbed in an American Confederation. (Hear, hear, and dissent.) Some entertained the opinion that it was unnecessary to have British North American Confederation to prevent absoi-ption into the vortex of American Confederation. Such parties were mistaken. We knew the policy of England towards us — that she was determined to help and support us in any struggle with our neighbors. The British Provinces, separated as at present, could not defend themselves alone, and the question resolved itself into this : shall the whole strength of the empire be concentrated into Prince Edward Island, or Canada, as the case may be, in case of a war with the United States — or shall the provinces be left to fight single-handed, disunited ? We were not suf ficiently united. We had our duties, with regard to England, to perform. In order to secure the exercise of her power in our defence we must help her ourselves. We could not do this satisfactorily or efficiently unless we had a Confederation. When aU united, the enemy would know that, if he attacked any part of those provinces — Prince Edward Island or Canada — he would have to encounter the com bined strength of the empire. Canada, sepa rate, would be, although comparatively strong in population and wealth, in a dangerous posi tion should a war ensue. When we had organized our good defensive force, and united for mutual protection, England would send freely here both men and treasure for our defence. (Cheers.) He had stated before audiences in the Lower Provinces that, aa far as territory, population and wealth were concerned, Canada was stronger than any of the other provinces, but at the same time was wanting in one element necessary to national greatness — the maritime one ; and that, owing to the large trade and com merce of Canada, extensive communication with Great Britain at all seasons was abso lutely necessary. Twenty years ago our com merce for the year could be managed by com munication with Great Britain in the summer months only. At present, however, this system was insufficient, and for winter communication with the sea-board we were left to the caprice of our American neighbors, through whose territory we must pass. He had also aUudcd to the bonding system, which if the Americans were to withdraw, Canada would be left in winter without any winter harbors. Canada, having two or three elements of national greatness — territory and population — -wanted the maritime element; and as he had said, — the Lower Provinces had this element and a sea-board, but not not a back country or large population, which Canada possessed, — -and for the mutual benefit and prosperity of all the provinces, all these elements ought to be united 56 together. Those who pretended that the British North American Provinces would be in as safe a position, remaining separate, while they belonged to the British Crown, as under Confederation, were under great misappre hension. Now was the time for us to form a great nation of the several provinces. Now was the time to look the matter in the face and adopt the only safe and prudent com-se open to us in the shape of Confederation. He maintained it was necessary for our own commercial interests, prosperity and efficient defence. That was what we had now to dis cuss, and not the manner in whicii Confedera tion was to be brought about, which would be discussed when the details ofthe schema came up for consideration. At present the question was : Was Confederation of the British North American Provinces necessary in order to in crease our strength and power and secure to us the continuance of the benefite of British connection ? He had no doubt that the measure was necessary for those objects. It would be observed that the English speaking opponents of the scheme, in Lower Canada, pretended a fear of this element being absorbed by the French Canadian ; while the opponente, com posed of the latter origin — of men who might be caUed the old Papineau TaU — whose sole idea was annexation to the United States — said they were afraid of the extinction of French Canadian nationality in the great Confedera tion. The annexation party in Montreal, including the followers of Mr. John Dougall, the proprietor of the Witness, opposed the scheme on the ground of supposed danger to the British of Lower Canada. The annexa tion party could not, however, be supposed tobe sincere in their opposition to the scheme — except in .so far as they desired to carry Canada into the American Union. The absorption of tbis province into the Uuited States had long been contemplated, as would be seen from the 7th article in the original draft of the American Constitution, which he would read. It was as foUows : " Art. 7. Canada, according to this Confederation and joining in the measures of the United States, shaU be admitted into, and entitled to all the advantages of this union ; and shall be equally with any other of the United States, solemnly bound to a strict observance of, and obedience to these articles ; as shaU be also any other colony which shall be admitted into this Con federacy. The eleven votes in Congress shaU be increased in proportion as the Confederacy is extended But, except Canada, no other colony shaU be admitted into the Confederacy without the assent of eleven or more votes, as the case may require, by the Confederation being extended." By that article, no new state could go into the union except by the vote of the number of states required to admit a new partner. But, as regarded Canada, no such assent was required ; on knocking at the door of the union, she would, as a matter of course, be admitted. (Hear, hear.) The honorable gentleman went on to say that the papers lately contained a report of a meeting at the Institut Canadien of Montreal, where it was resolved that it was for the interests of Lower Canada — in the interests of the French Canadians, were the province to become a part of the American Union. Hon. Mr. DORION said that was not the case. The honorable gentleman had misquoted what had passed there. Hon. Mr. CARTIER said he was right. If resolutions were not passed, sentimente were expressed to that effect. Then the organ of the Institute — L'Ordre, he thought — had set forth that the interests of Lower Canada would be better secured by annexation to the United States than entering into a Confederar tion with the British American Provinces. It was no wonder, then, that the French Canadian annexationists betrayed their pur pose in opposition to British North American Confederation, and that their English-speaking colleagues pretended a fear of the rights of their class being jeopardized under Confedera tion. We knew their object in this — that they were aware that as soon as this project was adopted, there would be no avail in any cry of separation to form a part of the Ameri can Union. (Hear, hear,) There had been a good deal of fault-finding and complaint as to the proceedings of the delegates having been conducted with closed doors. Such a course was an absolute necessity. Every one could underfstand that if all the difficulties arising among the representatives of the five colonies, during the Conference, had gone every morning to thepubUc, it would have been impossible for the delegates to continue to meet, or compromise any of the difficulties that might be expected to spring up. Be sides, the proceedings of the American Con gress of 1782 was held with closed doors, and their proceedings were not published while matters were progressing. With regard to this, he would quote from a letter of Col. Mason, a member of the Convention :— " All communications of the proceedings are for bidden during the sitting of this Convention; this, I think, was a necessary precaution to 57 prevent misrepresentations or mistakes ; there being a material difference between the appear ance ofa subject in its first crude and indigested shape and after it shaU have been properly matured and "arranged." On the same princi ple the Conference at Quebec very properly sat with closed doors. (Hear, hear.) We wished, however, that the British Canadian public should know the result of our labors when concluded, and that result the Parliament and people of Canada had before their con sideration, and it was for them to discuss its merits. We, on this side of the House — the members of the Government and their supporters — ^had come to the conclusion that Federation was desirable and necessary ; and we were ready to hear the honorable gentle men on the other side who necessarUy, from their standing, were supposed to have devoted their attention to it and appreciated their position, stating what in their opinion would be sufficient in order to maintain ourselves as a British colony on this side of the Atlantic, and to increase in wealth and power. He was aware that some members of the House, and a number of people in Upper Canada, in Lower Canada and in the Lower Provinces, were of opinion that a Legislative Union ought to have taken place instead of a Federal Union. He would say, however, at the outeet, that it was impossible to have one Government to deal with all the private and local interests of the several sections of the several provinces forming the combined whole. (Hear, hear.) The next question to be considered, therefore, by those who had set to work to discover a solution of the difficulties under which we had labored, was — what was the best and most practicable mode of bringing the provinces together, so that particular rights and interests should be properly guarded and protected? No other scheme presented itself but the Federation system, and that was the project which now recommended iteelf to the Par Uament of Canada. Some parties — through the press and by other modes — ^pretended that it was impossible to carry out Federation, on account of the differences of races and religions. Those who took this view of the question were in error. It was just the reverse. It was precisely on account of the variety of races, loc^al interests, &c., that the Federation system ought to be resorted to, and would be found to work well. (Hear, hear.) We were in the habit of seeing in some public jom-nals, and hearing from some public men, that it was a great misfortune indeed there should be a difference of races in this colony —that there should be the distinction of French Canadian from British Catiadian. Now, he (Hon. Mr. Cartier) desired oh this point to vindicate the rights, the merite, the usefulness, so to speak, of those belonging to the French Canadian race. _ (Hear, hear.) In order to bring these merits and this usefulness more prominently before his hearers, it would be only necessary to allude to the efforts made by them to sustain British power oh this con tinent, and to point out their adherence to British supremacy in trying times. We were aU conversant with the history of the circum stances which had brought about the difficul ties between England and her former Ameri can colonies in 1775. Lower Canada, — or rather he should say, the Province of Quebec, for the colony was not then known by the name of Canada, but was called the Province of Quebec, — contained the most dense popula tion of any British colony in North America at that time. The accession of Lower Canada was of course an object of envy to the Other Amer ican colonies, and strenuous efforts were made by those who had resolved to overthrow British power on this continent to induce Canada to ally herself to their cause. As early as 1775, the French Canadians were solemnly addressed in a proclamation by General Wash ington, who caUed upon them to abandon the flag of their new masters, inasmuch as they could not expect anything from those who dif fered from them in language, in religion, in race, and in sympathies. , But what was the conduct of the French Canadian people under these circumstances — what was the attitude of the clergy and the seigniors ? It was right in treating this chapter of our history, to render justice to whom ju,stioe was due, and it was truth to say that the seigniors, forming, as they did, the educated class of our population at that early epoch, had fully understood that the object and aim of those who appealed to them was the downfall of the monarchical sys tera in America. (Hear, hear.) A few years only had elapsed at that time since the trans fer of the country and its population from the Crown of France to the Crown of Great Bri tain ; but even within that brief interval of time, they were enabled to appreciate the ad vantages of their new position, notwithstanding the fact that they were still struggUng and complaining. The people, as well as the clergy and aristocracy, had understood that it was better for them to remain under the English afid Protestant Crown of England, rather than to become republicans. (Hear, hear.) They were proof against the insidious offers of 58 George Washington ; and not only so, but when the Americans came as invaders, tbey fought against the armed forces of Arnold, Montgomery and others. (Cheers.) At> tempte were made to excite hostility to Feder ation on the ground that, under the regime of a local legislature, the English Protestant minor ity would not be fairly dealt witb. He thought the way in which the French Canadians had stood by British connection, when there were but few British in the province, was a proof that they would not attempt to deal unjustly now by tbe British minority, when their num bers were so much greater. On this point, appealing to the evidence of history, he would quote from the work which he had already quoted. At a time when there were, perhaps, hardly a few hundred English Protestant resi- dente in Lower Canada, the address in the name of Washington, to which he had already briefly referred, was circulated throughout the country by Arnold's invading army. The hon. gentleman here read a number of ex tracts from General Washington's proclama tion, addressed to the inhabitants of Canada. It made the most earnest appeals to the Lower Canadians to join the otber colonies. " We rejoice," said General Washington, " that our enemies have been deceived with regard to you; they have persuaded themselves — they have even dared to say — that the Canadians were not capable of distinguishing between the blessings of liberty and the wretchedness of slavery ; that gratifying the vanity of a little circle of nobUity would blind tho people of Canada. By such aitifioes they hoped to bend you to their views, but they have been de ceived. * * * Come then, my brethern, unite with us in an indissoluble union ; let us run together to the same goal. * * ;(; Incited by these motives, and encouraged by the advice of many friends of liberty amono- you, the grand American Congress have sen't an army into your province, under the com mand of General Schuyler— not to plunder but to protect you — to animate and bring forth into action those sentiments of freedom you have disclosed, and which the tools of despotism would extinguish through the whole creation. To co-operate with this design, and to frustrate those cruel and perfidious schemes, which would deluge our frontiers with the blood of women and children, I have despatched Colonel Arnold mto your country, with a part of the army under my command. I have enjoined upon him, and I am certain that he wiU con sider himself, and act as in the country of his patrons and best friends. Necessaries and accommodations of every kind which you may furnish he will thankfully receive and render the full value. I invite you, therefore, as friends and brethren, to provide him with such supplies as your country affords ; aud I pledge myself not only for your safety and se curity, but for an ample compensation. Let no man desert his habitation — let no one flee as before an enemy. 'The cause of America and of liberty is the cause of every virtuous American citizen, whatever may be his religion or descent. The united colonies know no dis tinction but such as slavery, corruption and arbitrary dominion may create. Come then, ye generous citizens, range yourselves under the standard of general liberty — against which all the force of artifice and tyranny will never be able to prevail." It appeared by this ad dress that the most tempting offers and pronii- ses had been made by the republican general; but they had failed, nevertheless, to accom plish the desired effect. This, however, was not the only trait of this nature in the history of the French Canadian people. There was another despatch, or rather proclamation, issued in 1778, by Baron D'Estaing, commander of the French fleet, which was acting in aid of the American revolutionary party. The honorable gentleman read some extracts from this proclamation, as follows : — " I shall not ask the military companions of the Marquis of L£vis, those who shared his glory, who ad mired his talents and genius for war, who loved his cordiality and frankness, the principal characteristics of our nobility, whether there be other names in other nations among which they would be better pleased to place their own. Can the Canadians, who saw the brave MoNT- CALJi fall in their defence — can they become the enemies of his nephews ? Can they fight against their former leaders, and arm them selves against their kinsmen ? At the bare men tion of their names, the weapons would fall out of their hands. I shall not observe to the min isters of the altars, tbat their evangelic efforts will require tbe special protection of Providence, to prevent faith being diminished by example, by woridly interest, and by sovereigns whom force has imposed upon them, and whose poli tical indulgence will be lessened proportionably as those sovereigns shall have less to fear. I shall not observe tbat it is necessary for reh gion that those who preach it should form a body m the state ; and that in Canada no other body wotdd be more considered, or have more power to do good than that of the prieste, taking a part in the Government, since their respectable conduct has merited the 59 confidence of the people. I shall not repre sent to that people, nor to all my countrymen in general, that a vast monarchy, having the same religion, the same manners, the same language, where they find kinsmen, old friends and brethren, must be an inexhaustible source of commerce and wealth, more easily acquired and better secured by their union with power ful neighbors, than with strangers of another hemisphere, among whom everything is dif ferent, and who, jealous and despotic sover eigns would, sooner or later, treat them as a conquered people, and doubtless much worse than their late countrymen, the Americans, who made them victorious. I shall not urge to a whole people that to join with the United States is to secure their own happiness, since a whole people, when they acquire the right of thinking and acting for themselves, must know their own interest. But I will declare, and I now formally declare in the name of His Majesty, who has authorized and com manded me to do it, that all his former sub jecte in North America, who shall no more acknowledge the supremacy of Great Britain, may depend upon his protection and support." D'Estaing had appealed to their ancestry and their prejudices ; he had invoked the names of L£vis and Montcalm, and endeavored to in fluence their clergy ; but the French Canadians understood their position too weU. If they had their institutions, their language and their religion intact to-day, it was precisely because of their adherence to the British Crown. Had they yielded to the appeals of Washington and Baron D'Estaing, it is probable that there would uot have been now a vestige of British power on this continent. But, with the dis appearance of British power, they too would have disappeared as French Canadians. (Hear, hear.) These historical facts taught that there should be a mutual feeling of gratitude from the French Canadians towards the British, and from the British towards tbe French Canadians, for our present position, that Canada is still a British colony. (Hear, hear.; He had had occasion, a moment ago, to refer to the French Canadian clergy in con nection with D'Estaing's address, and he would say this, to their honor and credit, that, if to-day Canada was a portion of the British Empire, it was due to the conservatism of the French Canadian clergy. (Cheers.) It was a pleasure to bim thus to be able to quote from these old documents proofs of the honor, loyalty, and liberaUty ofthe French Canadian people. He (Hon. Mr. Cartier) was as devoid I of prejudice as any honorable gentleman in this | House ; but when he heard or read the state ments occasionally made, that there was some danger that, under the Federation system, the French Canadians would have too much power, and that the power thus obtained would be used to the prejudice of the British and Pro testant minority — the history of the past, in many instances, was the best reply to such attacks. (Hear, hear.) Baron D'Estaing issued his tempting proclamation in 1778, and it was sent into Canada frequently afterwards, and circulated at the instigation of Rocham beau and Lafayette; but our clergy and our aristocracy, the leaders of our people in these days, saw that it was not their interest to cast their lot with the democratic element — they knew the hollowness of democracy. (Hear, hear.) We found ourselves at the present day discussing the question of the Federation of the British North American Provinces, while the great Federation of the United States of America was broken up and divided against itself. There was, however, this important difference to be observed in considering the action of the two peoples. They had founded Federation for the purpose of carrying out and perpetuating democracy on this continent; but we, who had the benefit of being able to contemplate republicanism in action during a period of eighty years, saw its defects, and felt convinced that purely democratic institutions could not be conducive to the peace and pros perity of nations. We were not now discussing the great problem presented to our considera tion, in order to propagate democratic princi ples. Our attempt was for the purpose of form ing a Federation with a view of perpetuating the monarchical element. The distinction, there fore, between ourselves and our neighbors was just this : — In our Federation the monarchical principle would form the leading feature, while on the other side of the lines, judging by the past history and present condition of the country, the ruling power was the wiU of the mob, the rule of the populace. Every per son who had conversed with the most intelli gent American statesmen and writers must have leamed that they all admitted that the governmental powers had become too extend ed, owing to the introduction of universal suffrage, and mob i uie had consequently sup planted legitimate authority ; and we now saw the sad spectacle of a country torn by civil war, and brethren fighting against brethren. The question for us to ask ourselves was this : ShiUl we be content to remain separate — shaU we be content to maintain a mere provin cial existence, when, by combining together, 60 we could become a great nation ? It had never yet been the good fortune of any group of communities to secure national greatness with such facility. In past ages, warriors had stru^led for years for the addition to their country of a single province. We had too, for instance, in our own days, the case of Napoleon III, who, after great expenditure of blood and treasure in the Italian difficulty, had acquired Savoy and Nice, by which he had obtained an addition of nearly one mil lion inhabitants to France — only one miUion souls, and if any person were for a moment to make a calculation of the value of the provinces acquired on one side, and the great cost on the other, he would at once see the great disproportion between the one and the other, and so ascertain the fact that the ter ritory acquired did not compensate the outlay. Here, in British North America, we had five different communities inhabiting five separate colonies. We had the same sympathies, and we all desired to live under the British Crown. We had our commercial interests besides. It was of no use whatever that New Brunswick, Nova Scotia and Newfoundland should have their several custom houses against our trade, or that we should have custom houses against the trade of those provinces. In ancient times, the manner in which a nation grew up was different from that of the present day. Then the first weak settlement increased iuto a vil lage, which, by turns, became a town and a city, and the nucleus of a nation. It was not so in modem times. Nations were now formed by the agglomeration of communities having kindred interests and sympathies. ,Such was our case at the present moment. Objection had been taken to the scheme now under consideration, because of the words " new nationality." Now, when we were united together, if union were attained, we would form a political nationality with which neither the national origin, nor the religion of any individual, would interfere. It was la mented by some that we had this diversity of races, and hopes were expressed that this dis tinctive feature would cease. The idea of unity of races wasutopian — it was impossible. Dis tinctions ofthis kind would always exist. Dis similarity, in fact, appeared to be the order of the physical worid and of the moral worid, as well as in the political world. But with regard tp,,the objection based on this fact, to°the effect that a great nation could not be formed because Lower Canada was in great part f rench and CathoUc, and Upper Canada was Jintish and Protestant.and the LowerProvinces were mixed, it was futile and worthless in the extreme. Look, for instance, at the United Kingdom, inhabited as it was by three great races. (Hear, hear.) Had the diversity of race impeded the glory, the progress, the wealth of England ? Had they not rather each con tributed their share to the greatness of the Empire ? Of the glories of the senate, the field, and the ocean, of the successes of trade and commerce, how much was contributed by the combined talents, energy and courage of the three races together ? (Cheers.) In our own Federation we should have Catholic and Protestant, EngUsh, French, Irish and Scotch, and each by his efforts and his success would increase the prosperity and glory of the new Confederacy. (Hear, hear.) He viewed the diversity of races in British North America in this way : we were of different races, not for the purpose of warring against each other, but in order to compete and emulate for the gen eral welfare. (Cheers.) We could not do away with the distinctions of race. We could not le^slate fbr the disappearance ofthe French Canadians from American soU, but British and French Canadians alike could appreciate and understand their position relative to each other. They were placed like great families beside each other, and their contact produced a healthy spirit of emulation. It was a benefit rather than otherwise that we bad a diversity of races. Of course, tbe difficulty, it would be said, would be to deal fairly by the minority. In Upper Canada the Catholics would find themselves in a minority; in Lower Canada the Protestants would be in a minority, while the Lower Provinces were divided. Under such circumstances, would any one pretend that either the local or general governments would sanction any injustice. What would he the consequence, even supposing any such thing wereattemptedby any oneof tbe local govern ments ? It would be censured everywhere. Whether it came from Upper Canada or from Lower Canada, any attempt to deprive the minority of their rights would be at once thwarted. Under the Federation system, grantr ing to the control of the General Government these large questions of general interest in which the differences of race or religion had no place, it could not be pretended that the rights of either race or religion could be invaded at all. We were to have a Gen eral Pariiament to deal with the matters of defence, tariff, excise, public works, and these matters absorbed all individual interest. Now, he would ask those self-styled , natibnal- ist^ who accused him of bartering fifty-eight 61 counties in Lower Canada to John BuU, and his honorable colleague beside him (Hon. Mr. Brown) — he would ask them, under what supposition could they think it possible for any injustice to be done to the French Cana dians by the General Government ? (Hear, hear.) He came now,to the subject of Local Governments. We could easily understand how a feeUng against the Federation project was raised in the minds of a few ofthe British residents of Lower Canada by fears of such difficulties as those which occurred in the days of Mr. Papineau, relative to the passing of laws relating to commercial matters. (Hear, hear.) These difficulties had been of a very inconvenient nature, Mr. Papineau not being a commercial man, and not understand ing the importance of these measures. He considered Mr. Papineau was right in the struggle he maintained against the oligarchy at that time in power ; but he had never ap proved of the course he took with reference to commercial matters, and in opposition to mea sures for the improvement of the country. But this precedent could not be urged as an objection to Federation, inasmuch as it would be for the General Government to deal with our commercial matters. There could be no reason for weU-grounded fear tbat the minority could be made to suffer by means of any laws affecting the righte of property. If any such enactments were passed, they would fall upon the whole community. But even supposing such a thing did occur, there was a remedy provided under the proposed Constitu tion. The magnitude of the scheme now sub mitted was, perhaps, the reason wby those who had not made themselves conversant with the question felt some apprehension in contem plating it ; but, when we came to discuss it clause by clause, he would be ready to state that no interest would be harmed in any way if Federation took place. It was true that op position was being offered in Montreal, by Mr. John Dougall, of the Witness. (Hear, hear.) And, while referring to the opponents of Federation, he could not help adverting to the strange manner in whioh extremes met and worked in unison to oppose Federation. (Laughter.) Por instance, we had the party who formerly composed what might be styled Mr. Papineau's Tail — the extreme democratic party — ;ioined with Mr. Dougall's Tail. (Hear, hear, cheers, and laughter.) Mr. PERRAULT— And members of the clergy oppose it. (Hear, hear.) Hon. Mr. CARTIER said the honorable gentleman was mistaken. The clergy were for it. But the honorable gentleman would have an opportunity of speaking afterwards. This scheme, he repeated, met' with the ap proval of all moderate men. The extreme men, the socialists, democrats and annexation ists were opposed to it. The French Cana dian opponents of the project were, it ap peared, afraid that their religious rights would suffer under the new arrangement. Fancy the celebrated Institut Canadien, of Mont real, under the lead of citizen Blanchet, taking religion under their protection I (Laughter.) Mr. DoUGALL loudly pro claimed that the British Protestant minority would be entirely placed at the mercy of the French Canadians. He (Hon. Mr. Car- tier) thought the arguments of the young French gentlemen belonging to the national democratic party who cried out that their re ligion and nationality would be destroyed, ought in all reason to be sufficient to satisfy the scruples and calm the fears of Mr. Dou gall. The True Witness, which v/as also one of the enemies of the scheme, said that if it were adopted the French Canadians were doomed ; while his brother in violence, the Witness, said that the Protestants wore doomed. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) At a meeting re cently held in Montreal onthe subject, he (Hon. Mr. Cartier) observed that Mr. Cherrier had enrolled himself among the enemies of the project. WeU, this fine, quiet, old gentleman announced that he had come out of his politi cal retirement for the purpose of opposing Fe deration. All he (Hon. Mr. Cartier) could say was that he never knew Mr. Cherrier was a strong politician. However, it appeared that he had come out once more on the political stage for the purpose of opposing this villain ous scheme, which was intended to desti:6y the nationality and religion of the French Cana dians — all brought about by that confounded Cartier! (Laughter and cheers.) AUusion had been made to tbe opinion of the clergy. Well, he would say that the opinion of the clergy was for Confederation. (Hear, hear.) Those who were high in authority, as well as those who occupied more humble positions, were in favor of Federation, not only because they saw in it so much security for all they held dear, but because it was just to their Protestant feUow-subjects as well, because they were opposed to political bickering and strife. This opposition to a state of political dissen sion and trouble was the general feeling of the clergy, aud because they saw in Confederation a solution of those difficulties whicii had exist ed for some tinie, due regard being 'dad to jiist 62 rights, they were favorable to the project. — The fact, however, was that when we saw such extreme opponents as Mr. Clerk, of the True Witness, Mr. DoUGALL, of the Witness, and the young gentlemen of the Institut Canadien combined to resist Confederation, because each party argued it would produce the most widely different results — ^we might look upon this fact, he repeated, as one of the strongest argu ments in favor of Confederation. (Hear.) We had, on the other hand, aU the moderate men, aU that was respectable and intelligent, including the clergy, favorable to Federation. (Hear, hear, and oh, oh.) He did not, of course, mean to say tbat there were not re spectable opponents to the project — what he did mean, however, was that it met general approval from the classes referred to. He was opposed, he might as weU state most distinctly, to the democratic system which obtained in the United States. In this coun try of British North America we should have a distinct form of govemment, the character istic of whioh would bo to possess the monar chical element. When we had Confederation secured, there was not tbe least doubt but that our Government would be more respect able — tbat it would have more prestige, and command more respect from our neighbours. (Hear, hear.) The great want under tbe American form — the point whioh they all admitted formed the great defect — was the absence of some respectable executive element. How was the head of the United States Gov ernment chosen? Candidates came forward, and of course each one was abused and villified as corrupt, ignorant, incapable and unworthy by the opposite party. One of them attained the presidential chair ; but even while in that position he was not respected by those who had opposed his election, and who tried to make him appear the most corrupt and con temptible being in creation. Such a system could not produce an executive head who would command respect. Under the British system, ministers might be abused aud assailed ; but that abuse never reached the Sovereign. Whether we were made a kingdom" or a vice- royalty — whatever name or grade was assigned to us — we would undoubtedly have addition;! prestige. He would now conclude bis remarks by asking honorable gentlemen to consider well this sohume. It was his hope, his cher ished hope, that it would be adopted by the House. Thf! time was opportune, as his hon orable colleague (^Atty. Gen. MACDONALD)had so ably stated last evening ; the opportunity might never offer itself again in such a facile and propitious manner. We knew we had, in aU our proceedings, the approbation of the Imperial Government. So if these resolutions we're adopted by Canada, as he had m doubt tbey would, and by the other Colonial Legis latures, the Imperial Government would be called upon to pass a measure which would have for its effect to give a strong central or general government and local govemmenta, which would at once secure and guard the persons, the properties and the civil and reli gious rights belonging to the population of each section. (Loud cheers.) Hon. Mr. GALT said,— Mr. Speaker, I trust the House wiU, on this occasion, extend to me the indulgence with which I have often previously been favored when I have ad dressed it on subjects relating to the commer cial and financial interests of this prorinoe; for I am now required to follow the very able and eloquent speeches of the two Attorneys General, East aud West, who have discussed, as none were more able than those gentlemen to discuss, the most important poUtical and philosophical questions which are involved in the Confederation of the British North Amer ican colonies; and the material interests of the country upon which it is my province this night, to dweU, though unquestionably those which are intended to be served through the political alterations we have to consider, are, nevertheless, likely to prove tedious to the House. Explanations respecting them are, however, imperatively called for when we are considering the question now at issue. (Hear.) There is one advantage whioh I feel that I enjoy on this occasion, and it is that this House is not caUed upon, in dealing with the commercial and financial interests involved in t!ie proposed changes, to consider the form or mode of government by which such inter ests are to be promoted. It makes little differ ence to the consideration of this branch of the subject whether the Constitution of the new Government be that of a Legislative or Federal Union — the points with which I am about to deal, are those which concern the public at large, and bear no reference to what may be the creed, nationality or language of portions of the people. The subjects on which I propose to address the House are those connected with the trade, resources and financial condition of ths several prov inces of British North America, and certain questions present themselves for decision, upon a satisfactory answer to which the determination of the House upon the whole plan that is submitted should depend, I 63 wiU divide my remarks into five distinet First. — Do the commercial and material interests of the several provinces point to their union as an advantageous measure ? Secondly. — Is their financial condition such as to permit of this union being carried into practical effect at this moment, with justice to them aU ? Thirdly. — -Are the measures proposed in the resolutions before the House fair to each and to all ? Fourthly. — Is there a reasonable prospect that the machinery through wbich these in tereste are proposed to be governed, will work smoothly and harmoniously ? Lastly. — Does the proposed system for the Government of the United Provinces appear likely to prove so expensive as to render it im possible for the people of Canada to consent to it? In dealing with the first question, whether the material interests of the provinces will be promoted by their union, it may be well for me to offer to the House some few remarks as to the resources of British North America. Possessing as we do, in the far westem p'avt of Canada, perhaps the most fertUe wheat-growing tracts on this continent, — in central and eastern Canada facilities for manufacturing such as cannot anywhere be surpassed, — -and in the eastem or Maritime Provinces an abundance of that most useful of all minerals, coal, as well as the most magnificent and valuable fisheries in the world ; extending as this coun try does for two thousand mUes, traversed by the finest navigable river in the world, we may well look forward to our future with hopeful anticipation of seeing the realization, not merely of what we have hitherto thought would be the commerce of Canada, great as that might become, but to the possession of Atlantic ports, which we shall help to build to a position equal to thit of the chief cities of the American Union. (Hear.) But it is not so much by the extent of a country that its power and real greatness are to be estimated, as by its containing within iteelf the elements of different interests, for it is in the diversity of employment that security is found against those sad reverses to which every country, de pending mainly on one branch of industry, must always be liable. (Hear.) A most re markable iUustration of this has recently oc curred in our own Mother Country. No one would have ventured to say, a' few years ago, that England could have lost its immense eotton supply without having ite gystem of commercial industry almost entirely over thrown, and having ite people sunk into the deepest misery. Yet we have seen, within the last few years, the cotton supply cut off. We have seen, it is true, a considerable portion ofthe people reduced to great want, but, at the same time, the wonderful diversity of employment which exists in the country opened new chan nels for the employment of the distressed oper atives, and though there was great pressure for a time, it was only temporary in its opera tions ; and at this moment, after a short pause, we see the industry of England greater than it was at the beginning of the American war. (Hear.) We may therefore rejoice that, in the proposed Union of the British North American Provinces, we shall obtain some se curity against those providential reverses to which, as long as we are dependent on one branch of industry as a purely agricultural country, we must always remain exposed. (Hear, hear.) The resources of these great colonies, and the extent to which the industry and inteUigence of their inhabitants have de veloped them, are most significantly shewn in the Trade and Navigation Tables, which are in the possession of the public. I am afraid to weary the House by going at any length into statements relating to them, but I feel that in order to place tbe question of union fairly before the House and the country, I am caUed upon to glance, however briefly, at the position in which the trade and tonnage of each ofthe British North American Provinces at the present moment stands. The retums of the trade of Canada in 18G3, taking exports and imports conjointly, shew an aggregate of $87,795,000. Taking the census of 1861, this trade represents thirty-five dollars per head of the population. Tbe value of the import and export trade of New Brunswick, for tho sane year, reaches $16,729,680, amounting to sixty-six dollars per head of its population. The aggregate trade of Nova Scotia for the same period, amounted to $18- 622,359, or fifty-six dollars per head of its people. And in the case of Prince Edward Island, the import and export trade amounted to $3,055,568, representing thirty-seven dol lars per head of the population of that colony. The value of the total trade of Newfoundland was $11,245,032, or eighty-six dollars per head. The whole of these figures represent an aggregate trade of all the provinces amounts ing to $137,447,567. Notwithstanding the large population and the very large amount represented by the trade of Canada, when it is divided per head it faUs considerably short 64 of the trade of New Brunswick and Nova Sco tia, being a, little more than half per head Qf the former, and not more than two-thirds of that of Novii Scotia. All the statistics to which I have had access show that the commercial and financial position of our sister colonies is such as to enable them creditably to seek an alliance with any country on earth ; and it cannot be said that, in seeking or consenting to an alliance with Canada, they have any local, or sectional, or selfish object in view. (Hear, hear.) Passing from trade, I will turn to another subject — the ship buUding and tonnage of those colonies— and will take the returns of 1863. In that year, the num- be of ships built in all those colonies was no less than 645, with a tonnage amounting to 219,763 tons. This statement of the enor mous amount of tonnage built in one year is as good evidence as can be offered of the fa cilities we possess for becoming an important maritime power. The industry represented by those figures shows an export value of nearly nine miUion dollars ! The sea-going tonnage of Canada, including that of the in land lakes, a mounts to about nine million tons, a great portion of whioh, however, represents the tonnage of vessels performing coasting service, many of which frequently clear and arrive in the course of one day. It is gratifying to know that the trade between Canada and the States on tbe other side of the lakes is of a nature to give employment to a large portion of this lake tonnage — amounting to 6,907,000 tons — but it cannot be classed in the same category as the tonnage arriving at Quebec and Montreal, which in most cases can make only two or three trips per an num. Tho sea-going tonnage of Canada amounted to 2,1.33,000 tons; of New Bruns wick, 1,386,000 ; of Nova Scotia, 1,432,000 tons. Consequently the amount of seii-goino- tonnage, subject only to a small deduction, was actually about five miUion tons, of whioh about 2,133,000 was that of vessels tradiuo- between the St. Lawrence and foreign ports. In making this statement it is due to the House that it should be made aware that some portion of this trade wUl not be repre sented after the contemplated union has taken place. At present, the internal commerce between these colonies appe.irs in the returns of each as imports and exports, but I should be glad if I were able to make on this account a large deduction from the figures I have given. It is matter for regret on the part of all of us that the trade between these colo nies — subject all to the same Sovereign, con nected with the same empire — has been , so small. Intercolonial trade has been, indeed, of the most insignificant character ; we have looked far more to our commercial relations with the neighbouring — though a foreign country, — than to the interchange of our own products, which would have retained the bene fits of our trade within ourselves ; hostile tariffs have interfered with the free interchange ofthe products of the labor of all the colonies, and one of the greatest and most immediate benefits to be derived from their union, will spring from the breaking down of these bar riers and the opening up ofthe markets of all the provinces to the different industries of each. (Hear, liear."> In this manner we may hope to supply Newfoundland and the great fishing districts of the Gulf, with the agricul tural productions of Western Canada; we may hope to obtain from Nova Scotia our supply of coal ; and the manufacturing indus try of Lower Canada may hope to find more extensive outlets in supplying many of those articles whioh are now purchased in foreign markets. For instance Newfoundland produces scarcely anything by agriculture, manufactures hardly an article of clothing, and a considerable trade may thus be expected to arise ; while, instead of having payments made, as they are now, through Lombard street, they will be made through our own bankers in Montreal and elsewhere. If we require to find an ex ample of the benefits of free commercial in tercourse, we need not look beyond the effects that have followed from the working of the Reciprocity Treaty with the United States. Iu one short year from the time when that treaty came into operation, our trade in the natural productions of the two countries swelled from less than $2,000,000 to upwards of $20,000,000 per annum, and now, when, we are threatened with an interruption of that trade — when we have reason to fear that the action of the United States wiU prove hostile to the con tinuance of free commercial relations with this country — when we know that the con sideration of this question is not grounded on just views of the material advantages - result ing to each country— but that the irritation connected with political events exercises a predominant influence over the minds of American statesmen, it is the duty of the House to provide, if possible, other outlets for our productions. If we have reason to fear that one door is about to be closed to our; trade, it is the duty of the House to endeavor: to open another ; to provide against a coming! evU. of the kind feared by tunely expansion in, 65 ! another direction; to seek by free trade with om' own fellow-coloniste for a continued and uninterrupted commerce which wiU not be liable, to be disturbed at the capricious wiU of any foreign country. (Hear, hear.) On this ground, therefore, we may well come to the conclusion that the union between tbese colonies is demanded alike on account of their extensive resources, and because of tho peculiar position in which they stand relatively to each other, to Great Britain, and to the United States. All these are questions wbich faU within the province of the General Gov emment, as proposed in the resolutions before the House, and whatever may be the doubte and fears of any one with respect to the de tails of the organization by which it is pro posed to work the new system of Confedera- ation, no one can doubt that the great inter este of trade and commerce wiU be best pro moted and developed by being entrusted to one central power, which wiU wield them in the common interest. (Hear, hear.) I now come, Mr. Speaker, to the consid eration of the second, and perhaps I may say the third, division of my subject also — wheth er the material condition of these provinces is such as to make the union practicable, and whether the details of the measures proposed are equitable to each and to all. In consid ering this point, it is necessary for us first to review the liabUities of each province, the reasons why they were incurred, the objects which have been sought. In doing so, the House wUl not fail to remark that the same poUcy has animated the legislatures of all the provinces, or perhaps I should speak more exactly in saying those of Canada, New Bruns wick and Nova Scotia. The pubUc debt of all these provinces has, with some slight exceptions, been incurred for public improve ments, intended to develope the resources of the country, to attract immigration and wealth to their respective shores, to cheapen the means whereby the products of their farms were to be taken to market, and to reduce the cost of freight of articles which enter largely into the consumption of their inhabitants. Nor will any one fail to observe the intimate connection which aU these public works have with each other — a connection which singu larly iUustrates the natural union which exists between these several provinces. If we con sider the public improvements of Canada^ her great canals intended to bring the trade of the vast countries bordering on the lakes down to the Gulf of St. Lawrence ; if we look at the raUway system forced upcto us in our oornp*- 10 tition with Ameriean channels of trade, stretch ing from the extreme west to the extreme east of the province ; and if we then look at the public works that have been undertaken in Nova Scotia and New Brunswick, we find that, practically, they form parts of one great whole. It is through the St. Lawrence that the people of the Lower Provinces will send their fish, oils and other exports to the west, and it is through our canals and river that they wiU import the necessaries they require from the west. Through these canals and the river St. Law rence, and along the railway systems of all the provinces, when hereafter connected, a great trade wUl flow in one uninterrupted stream, enriching in ite course not only the cities of Canada, but also swelling the tide of a new commerce we may hope to see called into being in the open Atlantic porfe of St. John and Halifax. (Hear, hear.) I will now pro ceed, sir, briefly to lay before the HoUse a statement of the present engagements of the several provinces, beginning with Canada. I find that our whole debt, exclusive of the Common School Fund, which does not form a portion of our engagements relatively to the Lower Provinces, amounts to $67,263,995. The debt of Nova Scotia is $4,858,547, and that of New Brunswick $5,702,991; and I may notice, with reference to the debts of Nova Scotia and New Brunswick, that in the case of Nova Scotia a portion of their liabili ties, to the amount of nearly half a million of dollars, consists of treasury notes, while the poUcy has been pursued both in that province and in New Brunswick of retaining in the hands of the Government the Savings Bank deposits of the people, which form, therefore, a part of the liabilities I have named to the extent of $1,167,000. It must, therefore, be observed that the rate of interest on the debts of these two colonies is not, on the whole amount, higher than that which the biUk of the Canadian debt now bears. Newfoundland has only incurred liabihties to the extent of $946,000, bearing interest at five per cent., whUe Prince Edward Island owes $240,673. The total liabilities of those provinces are, therefore, $11,748,211, against the interest on which ma,y be placed the net revenues of the railways whioh are the property of those pro vinces, and which produced last year a net amount of about $100,000. In addition to the existing UabUities of Nova Scotia and New Bmnswick, there are certain further engage ments they have incurred for the extension of their railway system requiring future provision to tho extent, in the case of Nova Sootia, of 66 $3,000,000, and in that of New Brunswick of $1,300,000. It must be evident to the House that, in entering into such a partnership as is proposed, some common basis must be arrived at on which each province must enter into the Confederation. 'Taking aU the engagements, present and future, of Nova Scotia and New Brunswick, it was found that, relatively to their populations, they amounted to about $25 per head, and this amount, as applied to Canada, would entitle us to enter the union with a debt of $62,500,000. Some difficulty might have occurred in reducing our debt to this amount had it not been apparent, on examination, that a considerable portion of it was connected vrith local ad.vances, such as the Municipal Loan Fund, which does not properly belong to the same category as debt contracted in connection with our system of public im provements, and the management of which is intended to be confided to the General Gov ernment, but rather partakes of a local charac ter, and should more properly be left in the hands of the local legislatures. It wiU therefore be found provided in the resolutions, that in assuming for itself, apart from the General Government, the surplus of debt of about fivemillions ($5,000,000), the Province of Canada became entitled to withdraw from the general assets all those items which were of a local character, and for which a portion of its debt had been incurred. Had not this means been adopted, it would *have been neces sary to permit aU the Lower Provinces to increase their obligations beyond those for which their legislatures have hitherto had to provide, and bring in larger debts to the Con federation than they wiU now do, and a most unnecessary and prodigal expenditure of public money would have been the consequence. It was wise, then, to confine the liabilities of the General Govemment simply to those debts whicii had been incurred for purposes of general improvement, and to provide locally, in this country, for the assumpticm of the sur plus, together with the assets which had been created by it. Hon. Mr. DORION— Do the $67,203,995, stated as the debt of Canada, include tbe ori ginal seigniorial indemnity given to Upper and Lower Canada, under the Act of 1854 ? Hon. Mr. GALT — Yes ; that amount does include the indemnity, and among the arrange ments contemplated by the Government, as suming that Gon'ederation does take place, they wUr submit, for the consideration of this House, a project for the assumption by Lower Qanada of the seigniorial indemnity provided by the Act of 1859, whereby it wiU be ren dered unnecessary to give an equivalent indem nity to Upper Canada, thus saving upwards of three millions of doUars. (Hear, hear.) I would desire again, Mr. Speaker, to refer to the position of the Lower Provinces, and to caU the attention of the House to the fact that both in the case of Newfoundland and in that of Prince Edward Island, their UabUities are very much less in proportion to the popu lation than those of the three larger prorinces ; and in order to permit of their entering into the union upon fair terms, it was necessary to provide that they should be aUowed to receive from the general exchequer a sum equal to the interest upon the amount of debt which they had not been obliged to contract. By this means provision was in fact made for the mainten ance of their local governments, while at the same time a cause of future complaint was re moved. (Hear, hear.) It now becomes my duty to submit to the House a statement of the resources which the several provinces pro pose to bring into the common stock, and I may add that for the purpose of this statement being more readily verified, the financial re tums of 1863 have been taken as the standard. From these returns it would appear that the income and expenditure of the several pro vinces stood in that year as follows: Nova Scotia, with a population of 338,857, had an income of $1,185,629, her outlay being $1,- 072,274 ; New Brunswick, with a population of 252,047, had an income of $894,836, and an outlay of $884,613; Newfoundland, with a population of 130,000, had an income of $480,000,^the outiay being $479,420 ; Prince Edward Island, with a population of 80,000, had an income of $197,384, the outlay being $171,718. The total revenue of aU these colonies amounted to $2,763,004, and the total expenditure to $2,608,025 — the united surplus over expenditure for 1863 being $154,979. It wiU be observed that as regards these provinces their income and expenditure are such that they wiU enter the Confeder ation with a financial position in no respect inferior to that of Canada. If an objection were made with respect to any province in regard to its financial position, it would be against Canada. The Lower Provinces have been and are now in a position to meet, from their taxation, all their expenses, and cannot be regarded as bringing any burthen to the people of Canada. It is not necessary for me to say anything in reference to the financial position of Canada in 1863, but it must be gratifying to the House to know that t>c de- 67 ficiency which unfortunately existed during that year was removed in 1864, and that, therefore, we are not obliged now to propose to enter the Confederation in an inferior po sition, in this respect, to that of our sister colonies. (Hear, hear.) The revenues of each of these provinces are, as the House is weU aware, coUected under different systems of tax ation, suited to the local industry and the wants of their several populations. It is, there fore, manifest that one of the first duties of the General Legislature wiU be to consider the modes by which the burden of taxation can be most easily borne by the industry of the whole country, and to assimilate the several sources of revenue which are now in existence in such manner as wUl least interfere with the profit able exercise of the industry of the people. It would be entirely out of place for me, sir, to attempt on this occasion to indicate what the poUcy of the General Govemment may be, but one thing must be evident to all, and that is, that where the taxation is about equal per head, the adjustment of it cannot be attended with any injustice to the people of any of the several provinces. Reductions may be made in our customs, on the one hand ; and, perhaps, on the other, some portions of our commerce may be reUeved from the exactions to which they are now subjected. Apart from the advan tages which wiU manifestly flow from the free trade which wUl hereafter exist between us, it must be clear to every member of the House that the credit of each and all the provinces wUl be greatly advanced by a union of their resources. A larger fund wiU be available as security to the pubHc creditor, larger in dustries wUl be subjected to the action of the Legislature for the maintenance of public credit, and we wiU also see removed some of those apprehensions which have latterly affected the public credit of this country. (Hear, hear.) It must be evident, for it is proved by the fluctuating quotations of the secu rities of these provinces in London that the apprehension of war with the United States — ^which has, unfortunately, affected the prices of Canadian bonds — ^has not to the same extent effected those of New Brunswick and Nova Scotia, which are less exposed to hostile attack; and we may therefore hope that the union, while it affords us greater re sources, wiU, at the same time, carry vrith it a greater sense of security. (Hear, hear.) I must now enquire whether the proposed system of general and local governments, as regards the intereste to which I have ahready aUuded, is likely to work beneficially ; and this brings me to the consideration of the question of the means that will be at the dis posal of the general and local govemments. It must be admitted that having the power of taxation in theu* own hands, it will be the fault of tho General Legislature if any em barrassment is felt in meeting the expendi ture of the General Government. Before, however, passing to the consideration of the means at the disposal of the local govern- mente, I would take this opportunity of reply ing to the honorable member for Hochelaga, in reference to the export duty on timber in New Brunswick, and the royalty in Nova Scotia on the produce of the mines. This has arisen from the circumstance that in the former pro vince it was found both expensive and incon venient to attempt to levy their timber dues in the forest, and they therefore adopted the plan of causing them to be paid in the form of an export duty upon the clearances of vessels at the custom house. If, therefore, provision had not been made for securing to New Brunswick the payment of these dues, that prorince wotUd have been deprived of the large amount which its territorial timber con tributes to the revenue, and the General Legislature would have been required to in crease tbe proposed grant to that province by an amount equal to those dues — somewhere about $90,000 per annum. In the case of Nova Scotiar— not possessing any public lands or timber to any extent — her territorial reve nue is almost wholly derived from her mines, and coUected in the form of royalty. Her representatives at the Conference pointed out that if the policy of the General Government should be to impose an export duty on her coal, it would virtuaUy obUge her either to re linquish the royalty, which now forms a large source of her revenue, or submit to be placed in a most disadvantageous position in competing in the American markets with the coal of that countiy. For these reasons an exception was made in the case of both of these provinces, such as has been aUuded to by the honorable member. (Hear, hear.) In the case of New foundland, an arrangement has been made whereby the whole of the territorial righte of that colony have been ceded to the General Govemment, and I wUl take the opportunity, when adverting to the means of supporting the Local Govemment of that colony, to ex plain the manner and the consideration for which these rights were BO„ceded.^ (Hear.) I now propose, sir, to ref er^. to the means which wiU be at the disposal of ^the several local governments to enable them to administer 68 the various matters of public policy which it is proposed to entrust to them, and it is evi dent that unless ample provision is made in the arrangements, great danger will arise that the machinery whereby the local wants of the people are intended to be met will speedily become impaired, causing complaint on the part of the inhabitants of the respective localities, and involving considerable danger to the whole machinery of government. (Hear, hear. ) In the case of Canada it will be remembered that the sum of nearly five millions of the public debt has to be borne by Upper and Lower Canada. It will hereafter be for the House to decide how this sum shall be appor tioned, but the probability is that the Govern ment will recommend that it shall be divided on the basis of population. (Hear, hear.) It must be remembered that Canada will have at its disposal a large amount of the local assets, including especially the sums due to the municipal loan fund, which will produce an income for tke support of their local in stitutions. As a matter of account between Upper and Lower Canada and the General Government, they wiU be charged with the interest on their respective proportions of the five millions against the subsidy which it is proposed shall be given to them, while they themselves will collect from the municipalities and other local sources all the revenue and amounts which now enter into the general revenue of the Province of Canada. The question of the sub-division of the local assets of Canada is not, however, before the House. What we have now to consider is whether tbe bargain as between Canada as a whole and the Lower Provinces ought to be assented to. If it be assented to the question wiU arise, how shall we deal with the local matters be tween Upper and Lower Canada ? and a pro position will be brought down which I hope and believe will satisfy both sections, and do them substantial justice. Hon. Mr. DORION— WiU Lower Canada be charged with the municipal loan fund, the seigniorial indemnity, and the educational in demnity ? Hon. Mr. GALT — I must repeat that, no matter what views the Government may have on the distribution of the liabUities as be tween Upper and Lower Canada, they will be susceptible of alteration in any way the House may see fit, this being a matter solely of local arrangement, and in no respect involving tbe agreement entered into with the other prov inces ; but I Inv^st point out that, as regard^ the original seiigniorial indemnity and the mu nicipal loan, they are both included in tie sixty-seven millions already stated as the lia bihties of Canada, and cannot, therefore, form any additional charge against Lower Canada. (Hear, hear.) Indeed, as regards the Municipal Loan Fund, instead of being stated as a liabUity, it appears that the sums due under it are, in connection with the ques tion as I now view it, to be regarded in the light of assets, because we are considering now the sums received as assete by Lower Canada. The Municipal Loan Fund being one of them, tbe sums due to it under the existing provin cial arrangements will become payable as an asset to that section of the prorinoe. (Hear.) It wUl be observed that in the plan proposed there are certain sources of local revenue re served to the Local Govemments, arising from territorial domain, lands, mines, &o. In the case of Canada, a large sum will be received from these resources, but it may be that some of them, such as the Municipal Loan Fund, will become exhausted in course of time, We may, .however, place just confidence in the development of our resources, and repose in the belief that we shaU find in our ter ritorial domain, our valuable mines and our fertile lands, additional sources of revenue far beyond the requirements of the public service. If, nevertheless, the local revenues become inadequate, it will be necessary for the local govemments to have resort to di rect taxation ; and I do not hesitate to say that one of the wisest provisions in the proposed Constitution, and that which affords the surest guarantee that the people will teke a healthy interest in their own affairs and see that no extravagance is committed by those placed in power over them, is to be found in the fact that those who are caUed upon to administer public affairs will feel, when they resort to direct taxation, that a solemn responsibility rests upon them, and that that responsibility will be exacted by the people in the most per emptory manner. (Hear, hear. ) If the men in power find that they are required, by means of direct taxation, to procure the funds neces sary to administer the local affairs, for whicii abundant provision is made in the scheme, they wUl pause before they enter upon any career of extravagance. Indeed, I do not hesitate to say, that if the public men ofthese provinceswere sufficientiy educated to under stand thi'ir own interests in the true light of the priiicijiles of political economy, it would be found better now to substitute "direct tax ation for some of the indirect modes by whieh texation haa been imposed upon the indiistrj 69 of the people. (Hear, hear.) I do not, how ever, beUeve that at this moment it is possible, nor do I think the. people of this country would support any government in adopting this measure unless it were forced upon them by the pressure of an overwhelming necessity —the necessity of providing, by extraordinary means, against dangers by which the peace, happiness and prosperity of tiie country may be threatened, in fact, by some of those great disturbing causes which are frequently tho beginning of the most important financial changes. (Hear, hear.) The local revenue of Upper Canada during the last four years has averaged the sum of $739,000, and that of Lower Canada, $557,239; together they amount to nearly $1,300,000, independent of the eighty cents per head whioh it is proposed to allow the local governments out of the general exchequer, for the purpose of meet ing their local expenditures. These local expenditures include such items as the ad ministration of justice, the support of educa tion, grants to literary and scientific societies, hospitals and charities, and such other mat ters as cannot be regarded as devolving upon the General Government. The whole charge, exclusive of tbe expenses of local govemment and legislation, on an average of the last four years, has in Lower Canada amounted to $997,000, and in Upper Canada to $1,024,- 022 per annum. In addition to these sums, wiU have now to be added such amounts as may be required to meet the cost of the Civil Government of the country and of the Legislation for local purposes. It may be difficult to form any reliable esti mate of the sums recjuired for this purpose, but when the House considers that, according to the statemente given of the expenditure during the last four years, there wUl be avail able in the whole Province of Canada the sum of no less than$l,043,015, it must, I think, be admitted that if tfiose charged with the administration of local affairs in Upjjer and Lower Canada exceed this amount they will be guilty of a degree of profligacy and extra vagance for whicii a speedy remedy will be found by tbe people. (Hear, hear.j With reference to the Lower Provinces, tbe delegates from them to the Conference were asked what reductions they- could make in the existing cost of the govermnent of their several colonies, and the figures I am about to give will be found most satisfactory, as s'nowing their dis position to reduce their requirements to the lowest possible sum. In the case of Nova Scotia, the^ estimate of outiay in 1864 for objects of a local character required an expen diture of no less than $667,000. Some por tion of this expenditure was for services that did not require again to be performed, but it is gratifying to observe that they h.ive under taken to perform the whole service in future for $371,000. (Hear, hear.) In the case of New Brunswick, in 1864 the estimated expen diture was 8404,000, which they have under taken to reduce to $353,000, and at the same time they have further undertaken within ten years to make an additional reduction of $63,000, thus reducing the whole expenditure in the future to $290,000. (Hear, hear.) Prince Edward Island, with an expenditure of 8124,000, proposes to perform the same local duties that formerly required $170,000 ; and in Newfoundland an outlay of $479,000 has been similarly reduced to $350,000. (Cheers.) The House must now, sir, consider the means whereby these local expenditures have to be met. I have already explained that, in the case of Canada, and also in that of the Lower Provinces, certain sources of revenue are set aside as being of a purely local character and available to meet the local expenditure ; but I have been obliged in my explanations with regard to Canada to advert to the fact that it is contemplated to give a subsidy of 80 cents per head to each of the Provinces. In trans ferring to the General Government all the large sources of revenue, and in placing in their hand with a single exception, tbat of direct taxation, all the means whereby the industry of the people may be made to contri bute to the wants of the state, it must be evi dent to every one that some portion of the resources thus placed at the disp(,sal of the General Govemment must in some form or other be available to supply tbe hiatus that would otherwise take place between the sources of local revenue and the demands of local expenditure. The members of the Conference Ci.nsi dered this question with the most earnest desire to reduce to the lowest possible limits the sum that was thus required, and I think the figures that I have already given to the House afford the best possible evidence that no disposition existed, at any rate on the part of our friends from the Lower Provinces, to take from the public exchequer one shilling more than the necessities of their respective communities absolutely demanded. (Heai-, hear. ) lu the case of Canada, perhaps it will be said that a smaller sum would have met our immediate wants, but it was felt that it would be impossible to justify any distinction being drawn between subjecte of the same 70 country. And if in Canada we receive per haps a somewhat larger amount than we ab solutely require, it ought rather to be a subject of gratification to this House that it wiU pos sess the means of giving greater encourage ment to our educational system, and greater development to those interests which are peculiarly entrusted to the charge of the local governments, and this, too, without making any greater demand than is at this time made upon the resources of the people. (Hear, hear.) A subsidy of 80 cents per head was prorided, based upon the popu lation according to the census of 1861. The amount, if taken upon the basis of the present population, would undoubtedly be considerably less ; and it must be observed that the agree ment does not contemplate any future exten sion of this amount. It is hoped that being in itself fixed and permanent in its character, the local governments wUl see the importance — I may say the necessity — of their exercising a rigid and proper control over the expendi ture of their several provinces. We thus obtain one of the greatest securities that can be offered to us that those influences whioh, in such a Legislature as we now possess in Canada, are brought to bear for the purpose of sweUing the public expenditure, will not exist in the local legislatures, but will meet with such a resistance, from the mere fact of the inability of the local governments to obey them, as to produce a very considerable saving in the general expense of the whole country. (Hear, hear.) I have now, Mr. Speaker, only to advert to the last question which I have stated is necessary to be decided on the present occasion ; and that is, whether under the proposed Confederation such addi tional expenses wUl be incurred as to render it undesirable. In considering this point, I must state that in my opinion the question of expense alone is by no means a fair criterion by which to judge of the advantages of a mea sure such as that now before the" House. If it be looked at in its most restricted sense, the only point in which additional expense can be incurred, must be that of the simple cost of governing the country. In no other way that I am able to see, can there be additional ex pense charged upon the people ; and looking at it in this point of riew, we may weU doubt whether the aggregate charge will be greater for the General Government, caring for the general interests of the whole, and for the local governments, attending merely to the local business of each section, — we may well doubt, I say, whether that expense wiU be greater, in any considerable degree, than that which is required for our Govemment under the present system. (Hear, hear.) On the one hand we shall be free from the empty parade of smaU Courts entailed by our present system on each of these provinces, keeping up a pretence of regal show when the reaUty is wanting ; we shall have the legislation of the General Government restricted to those great questions which may properly occupy the attention of the first men in the country ; we shall not have our time frittered away in considering the merits of petty local bills, and therefore we may reasonably hope that the expenses of the General Legislature wiU be considerably less than even those of the Legislature of Canada at the present moment, — while, on the other hand, the local legis latures having to deal rather with municipal than great general questions, vriU be able to dispose of them in a manner more satisfactory to the people, and at infinitely less expense than now. I believe, therefore, the simplo cost of the Government of the country will not be in reality any greater under the new than under the old systam ; but there are other items of expenditure for great public objects, the absence of which from the esti mates of any country is an indication rather of weakness and of dependence than a sub ject that ought to form a source of satisfac tion. If such items are not now found in the public expenditure, either of Canada or the Lower Provinces, it is the best proof that could be given that our position is one of in feriority, and that we do not possess either the power or the means to undertake such works as make such items necessary. Let me give one or two points as examples of my meaning ; and first I wiU instance the great question of defence — (hear, hear) — the absence of items of expenditure for which cnn only be an indication that we are lacking in one of the chief elemente of national greatness, that we do not properly value the institutions under which we live, and that we are not willing to make the sacrifices that every free people must make if they are desirous of preserving them. The same argximent applies to pubUc works, in connection with which it might be said that great advanta,ge would arise from large expenditure ; but with Umit 3d resources and an undeveloped territory it might be impos sible for any smaU country to undertake the necessary outiay. Many works of this kind are not directly productive of revenue, although indirectly of the utmost advantage, and if the resources of a country generaUy cannot 71 be appUed to that outlay, the absence of such expenditure ought to be a subject of regret in the community, and not of rejoicing. (Hear, hear.) In this view let us look at the immense extent of territory that stretches away west of Upper Canada. The reason why we have not been able to assume posses sion of that territory and open it up to the industry of the youth of this country who, in consequence of the want o- some such field for the employment of leir energies, have been obUged to go off ui the States in thousands, especially to those states possess ing the boundless resources of the great North-West, is because there sources of Can ada — great as they have been, considering the disadvantages under which she has labored — have been inadequate for the development of this great district. Now, one of the resolutions of the scheme before the House refers to this same question, and I beUeve that one of the first acts of the General Govemment of the United Provinces wUl be to enter into pubUc obUgations for the purpose of opening up and developing that vast region, and of making it a source of strength instead of a burden to us and to the Mother Country also. (Hear, hear.) Looking, however, to the whole question of expense, I must say that if the benefite of Confederation are to be weighed against the loss of three or four hundred thousand dollars, the House had better care- •fuUy consider whether the people of this country ynll not accept the former at such comparatively trifling cost — whether^they wUl not feel that a union vrith a miUion of their feUow colonists is worth much more to them than any smaU pecimiary question of this kind that may arise. (Hear, hear.) I trust the House wUl not permit the question to be judged of in a small, contracted manner. I trust it wUl keep in view the desire the countiy manifesto for the utmost possible development of its resources. Let us endeavor by this measure to afford a better opening than we now possess for the industry and intelligence of the people. Let us seek by this scheme to give them higher and worthier objecte of ambition. Let us not reject the scheme with the bright prospect it offers of a nobler future for our youth, aud grander objects for the emulation of our public men. Let us not re fuse it on small questions of detaU, but judge it on its general merits. Let us not lose sight of the great advantages which union offers because there may be some small matters which, as individuals, we may not like. Let us trust that this machinery, however faulty it may be, will yet under Providence open up for this country a happy career ; while at the same time the House must not forget that it will for ever remove the great and crying evils and dissensions which have existed in Canada for the last ten years, and which have threat ened to plunge the country into the most dis asterous and lamentable state oi discord and confusion. (Cheers.) Surely this last fact alone will commend the project to the House. It should induce the Legislature and the peo ple to make every aUowance for the men who have been engaged in the work, and lead them to approach the result of their labors as now submitted, not in a hypercritical spirit so that the public mind may be led astray on mere matters of detail. Let the House frank ly and kindly look at it as a great measure brought down for the purpose of relieving the country from distress and depression, and give it that consideration which is due, not to the arguments of the Govemment, feeble as they may be in view of the great interests involved, but to the fact that the countiy desires and cries for, at the hands of the House, some measure whereby its internal prosperity, peace and happiness may be de veloped and maintained. (Loud cheers.) On motion of Hon. Mr. Brown, the de bate was then adjoumed. LEGISLATIVE COUKCIL. Wednesday, February 8, 1865. Hon. Mr. ROSS continued the debate as follows : — Honorable gentlemen will remember that I yesterday moved the adjournment with the intention of replying to the remarks of the hon. member from Niagara Division (Hon. Mr. Currie), who engaged the attention of the House durirg most of its sitting. From its commencement to ite conclusion, the speech of that honorable gentleman was of a most remarkable character. At its very outset he took the opportunity of quoting somo parts of the first speech he made in this chamber, two years ago, in which he strongly approved of the principle of a Confederation between Canada and the Lower Provinces, and in some portions of his yesterday's speech he reiterated in a very decided manner his approval of such a scheme. But other parts of his speech were of such a character that if any of the pro moters of Confederation had been at first in clined to number him among the friends of 72 Intercolonial Union, they might afterwards have said " save us from our friends.' ' (Hear.) He took the very singular course of first decrying tbe credit of the Lower Provinces, and then decrying that of Canada itself, en deavoring to show first that we were making a very bad bargain in uniting our destiny with such poor provinces as they were, and afterwards that such was our state of bankruptcy that they would be very foolish indeed in joining tbeir fate with ours. (Laughter.) It would, indeed, be almost a sufficient answer to the honorable mem ber to take bis speech in separate paragraphs and to place certain of them opposite to others as the reply, for a more illogical and inconse quential address I hardly ever heard. Nor was he content with dealing in what he thought was irony or sarcasm, but ventured to attack important statements of fact made by the pub lic men of this and the other provinces. Now, if we are to have a Confederation at all, I think we should be careful what language we use with respect to such men, and what statements we place before the pubUc. If language such as the hon. member permitted himself to use be encouraged, it will be impossible to secure the good feeling and harmony which are indispen sably necessary to the well-working of the contemplated union. I am, however, satisfied that the sober sense of the House will condemn such language, not only when it comes from the hon. member for Niagara, but when falling from any other hon. member. (Hear, hear.) The hon. member commenced his attacks upon the public men of tbe provinces by quoting from a speech of Mr. Lynch, recently deliv ered at Halifax, and did his best to turn it into ridicule, as well as to excite contemptuous laughter at the expense of that gentleman. Now the statements Mr. Lynch made are facts, not foolish inventions, as the hon. mem ber pretended. That gentleman spoke by the book, and relied for his information upon the official report of one of our public depart ments, and if the hon. member will turn to the census of 1852, he will find, at page 32, a table comparing the produce of Canada and the United States, from which it appears that, while that of the latter increased 48 per cent., that of Canada increased 400 per cent, during the previous decade. This is what Mr. Lynch stated, and what the hon. member for Niagara asserted to be untrue. Hon. JIr. OURRIB —That was between the years 1841 and 1851, while tbe remarks of Mr. Lynch had reference to the subsequent decad*, Hon. Mr. ROSS— It is not so; Mr.LYNCH spoke of an increase of ten years ; he read from our official records in proof, and read correctly. The hon. member probably derived his information from some newspaper, and the error he has committed should teach hun to be more cautious how he assails public men on such evidence. (Hear, hear.) ,He then tumed from Mr. Lynch to the Premier of New Brunswick, a gentleinan of the highest char acter and ability, who is so strong in the esteem and confidence of the people of that province that it seems impossible to displace him. Now I maintain that, to say the least it is in extremely bad taste to attack high-placed public men, especially those of other countries, and more especially those of the sister colonies, as the hon. member has done. Hon. Mr. CURRIE— I did not attack them. Hon. Mr. ROSS — The hon. member has attacked tbeir veracity ; he has denied the cor rectness of the statements they made openly as public men. The Hon. Mr. Tilley quoted the figures of our own Minister of Finance, and the hon. member represented him as not speaking the truth, but as, in effect, attempting to deceive those whom he addi-essed. Hon. Mb. CURRIE — I beg to know when the Finance Minister of Canada stated that the average duties collected in Canada were 11 per cent. The figures — Hon. Mr. ROSS — The honorable member' wUl find it in the Finance Mmister's speech, and while I do not think it proper in him to interrupt me for the purpose of going into calculations just at this moment, I maintain that by taking aU the imports, including those free of duty, the honorable member wUl find that the rate stated is exactly correct. The imports in 1863 amounted to $45,964,493, and the duty collected was $5,169,1'73, whicii is just 11 per cent, of the whole. I repeat, honorable gentlemen, that, instead of making such attacks on great public men, I conceive it to be more properly our duty te defend them. (Hear.) Having thus disposed of the remarks the honorable member made on the veracity of j\Ir. Lynch and Hon. Mr. Tilley, I will now advert to that portion of his remarks in which he endeavored to show that Hon. Mr. Galt's statements were incorrect. He referred to the figures respecting thetonnag'eof the pro posed Confederation, as quoted by Hon. Mr. Galt, and pooh-poohed his remarks in a way which was no doubt intended to be very amusing. The Minister of Finance declared that when the Union was effected, we should be, he be- 73 lieved, the third largest country in the world, as regards the tonnage of our commercial marine, though possibly France might be about on an equality with us. England, he said, was the first, the United States the second, and either France or the contemplated Con federation would be the third ; and this is true. I wUI read the statement of that honorable gentleman : — The sea-going tonnage of Canada, including that of the inland lakes, amounts to about nine million tons, a great portion of which, however, represents the tonnage of vessels performing the coasting service, many of which frequently clear and arrive in the course of one day. It is grati fying to know that the trade between Canada and the States on the other side of the lakes is of a nature to give employment to a large portion of thife lake tonnage — amounting to 6,907,0(10 tons. I cannot class that in the same category as the tonnage arriving at Quebec and Montreal which, in most cases, can only make two or three trips per annum. The seagoing tonnage of Canada amounts to 2,1,33,000 tons; of New Brunswick, 1,386,000 tons; of Nova Scotii, 1,432,000 tons. Consequently the amount of sea-going tonnage, subject only to a small deduction, is actually about five million tons. The way the honorable Minister of Finance made up his statement was exactly similar to that in which the same kind of statistical statements were made up in England, the United States, and other great maritime countries, the object being to show the actual amount of tonnage employed during each year in the carrying trade. It does not matter whether a vessel is engaged in long or short voyages ; if it be employed merely as a ferry, the fact of ite being so employed in carrying goods inwards or outwards is a proof that its tonnage capacity is required by the trade of the countries to and from which it plies. (Hear.) But the honorable member made it appear untruly that the statement of the hon orable the Minister of Finance with respect to the tonnage employed on the Canadian lakes- was put forth for the purpose of misleading the public and inducing them erroneously to beUeve that the Confederation will have a pro minent place among the great maritime nations by reason of the tonnage employed in its trade. Mr. Galt's statement was that the sea-going tonnage of the proposed Confedera tion would be the third largest employed in the trade of the world, and the statistics re garding the tonnage of the inland waters of Canada were superadded to those of the sea going tonnage of the Union. Tbe two state ments were made perfectly distinct, in every 11 table and every speech emanating from the Minister of Finance or his department. It is thus the honorable member tias availed himself of bis position for the purpose of trying to throw dirt upon our leading states men — of endeavoring to asperse the charac ters of our most distinguished public men, and I repeat, for I cannot too strongly urge it upon tbe House, that we ought to dis countenance such attempts, for we should con sider the character of our public men as public property, not to be lightly attacked and damaged. If we are to enter into this scheme, we should at least do so unassailed by our own people, and with as good a public reputation as we, deserve. (Hear, hear.) The honorable member next proceeded to read ex tracts from old Globes and other newspapers, in which, with the characteristic features and bitter feelings of tbe times in which they were written, certain things were stated not specially commendatory of some of the Cana dian ministers now concerned in the prepara^ tion of the Confederation scheme. I am not hero to defend these gentlemen — the Hon. Messrs. Brown and McDougall, his own party leaders, whom he attacked — nor do I intend to make remarks upon past events, but this I will say, that the parties aUuded to have entered upon their present work with the sincere intention, I believe, of putting an end to the grave difficulties which have so long distracted the country. This they have done with the full concurrence and approbation of their political friends, whose advice they sought before entering the Administration; and I think that, under the circumstances, instead of being reproached and held up to pub lic censure, they ought to be treated with con fidence and generosity. I have hitherto always hstened to the honorable member with pleasure, even when I could not agree with him, and even in certain parte of the speech to which I am now referring, the honorable member exhibited considerable abUity ; but I do think, considering it as a whole, that a more illogical, self-contradictory, and gen erally objectionable address has seldom been made in the Canadian Legislature. Upon reviewing the general effect of this re markable effort, I can only compare it with the performances of the Parrott guns dis charged against Fort Fisher, six of which, we have been told, slightly wounded two of the enemy, but killed and disabled about fifty of the men wbo served them. I take it that Hon. Messrs. Tilley and Lynch have got off with very slight wounds indeed, and that 74 any damage done is to the honorable member's own friends. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) I will now come more closely to the subject under debate, the proposed Confederation of Canada and the other British North American colonies, and in doing so I feel I am dealing with a matter in which is bound up the hap piness and prosperity of the country, not for the present only, but for a long course of years to come. I only wish the honorable member for the Niagara Division had read the debates which preceded the establishment of the Ame rican Constitution after the United States had gained their independence. I especially advert to the debates in the Councils of Virginia, which at that time, by reason of its wealth and population, bore a similar relation to tbe other colonies to that which Canada now bears to the Lower Provinces. If he had read the speeches of the Madisons, the Marshalls, the Ran dolphs, the Henrys, the Lees and others, he would have found no passage in keeping with the sentimente he uttered yesterday. Those great patriots evidently met under a deep sense ofthe responsibilities of their work, and instead of bringing into tbe debates the small village feelings and animosities tending to embarrass and to destroy harmony, they acted like great men, true and noble men as they were, and applied themselves to their task with the pur pose of bringing it to a successful issue. The confederation which they first estabUshed, in the year 1781, did not work weU. It remained poor, vrithout respect abroad, or prosperity at home, and so in 1789 they aban doned that condition of existence and adopted the Constitution which lasted until the com mencement of the present unfortunate war, and now governs the North. In speaking of the Constitution prepared by our delegates, the honorable member for Niagara said it was neither one thing nor another, itwas neither legislative nor federative, but a mongrel non descript scheme between the two ; a Constitu tion fbr which there was no precedent in aU the worid's history. Such, at least, was the effect of the words he used. It happens, however, to be a fact, that in opposition to the profound and enlightened opinion of the hon orable member, the work of the delegates has received the approbation of some of the most eminent statesmen of England, as weU as that of the most distinguished and able writers for the press of that country, which is at any rate some smaU consolation. I wUl saythat if the delegates who met at Quebec aud prepared that mstrument were incompetent for the task, I do not know where others can be found to do it better ; and, after aU, I think that, not withstanding the remarks of the honorable member, the disinterested testimonies to the value of the work done, coming from the quarters I have indicated, wiU be considered in Canada as having some weight. (Hear, hear.) But since the honorable member regards this as a mongrel constitution, unworthy of ac ceptance, ought he not to have been ready to suggest something better ? Should he not as a patriot have given the country the benefit of his superior wisdom ? It is of no use to look for a better form to the constitution of the ancient republics which have passed away, their having ceased to exist being of iteelf proof enough of their not being adapted to our wants. The honorable member might perhaps have cited the Swiss and Dutch re publics, or the constitutions of the United States of 1781 and 1789, and if he had, the House would perhaps have been able to com pare them with that now proposed, and arrive at some definite conclusion which might after all have been that ours, as now proposed, is that which promises best to secure freedom to those who are to live under it, and stabUity for the political condition of our country. With respect to the Swiss Confederation, however well it may be considered to have worked, it is a fact that within our own time a civil war has existed among the cantons, and that repubUc has been upon the brink of destruction. As regards the Duteh repub lic, it is a matter of history how it fell. During the whole of its struggle against Philip IL, the provinces comprising it never had that centralized power which is necessary to the stabUity of a government, especiaUy one assaUed by enemies from without, for two provinces, Guelderland and Overyssel, con tributed nothing all that contest through — each standing upon its state rights — while among the remaining five, by far the largest proportion was contributed by the one Prov ince of Holland. The natural result was that tbe republic fell, and became a monarchy. The same evil lay at the root of the American Constitution of 1781, and after it had been adopted, so iU concerted and disunited were the efforts of the thirteen states, that tbe arrange ment would not work at aU, so that General Washington was obliged to ask for and actu ally obtained dictatorial powers, to enable him to carry on the contest against Great Britain. The difficulties between the North and the South whioh now prevail, arose wholly upon the question of state rights, and had provisions existed in the Constitution of the American 75 Union, sunUar to those which it is proposed to introduce into ours, the probability is the States would have remained united. (Hear, hear.) But the hon. member said further that the scheme has taken the country by sur prise. Now, I reaUy beg to ask whether there is any foundation for such a statement? I most deUberately say that there is not. It must be well known to hon. members that the late Chief Justice Sewell, who enjoyed the friendship of the Duke of Kent, the father of Her Majesty the Queen, so far back as 1814, addressed a letter to the noble Duke, recom mending an union, for this fact is adverted to in Lord Durham's report on the affairs of the British North American Provinces. Some ten or twelve years before even that, the Hon. Mr. Uniaoke, of Nova Scotia, had made a simUar suggestion, and from time to time, since then, the importance and desirabUity of the project has been openly advocated by lead ing public men in all the colonies. Amongst others, I may mention Archdeacon Strachan, the present venerable and Right Reverend Bishop of Toronto, whose enlightened opin ions upon great pubUc questions, have always commanded the utmost respect, and who, writing to Mr. Charles Bulwer, the able Secretary of Lord Durham, in 1838, ex pressed himself as follows : — I have only to add that it wiU be a pleasure to me to contribute everything in my power to the prosperous issue of Lord Dukham's Administra tion : and if Mr. Pitt considered the Constitution which he conferred upon the Canadas one of the glories of his life, what glory must redound to the statesmen who give a free Constitution to the British North American colonies, and by consoli dating them into one territory or kingdom, exalts them to a nation acting in unity, and under the protection of the British Government ; and thus not only ensuring their happiness, but preventing for ever the sad consequences that might arise from a rival power getting possession of their shores. Then it was formaUy presented and recom mended in Lord Durham's remarkable report on Canada and British North America gener aUy, so often quoted as a high authority, and only yesterday by the honorable member him self. WeU, what did that distinguished noble man say on the subject. He said : — How inseparably connected I found the inter ¦ ests of Your Majesty's Provinces in North America, to what degree I met with common disorders, re" quiring common remedies, is an important topic, which it will be my duty to discuss very^fuUy be fore closing this report. Again — On my first arrival in Canada, 1 was strongly inclined to the project of a Federal union, and it was with such a plan in view that I dis cussed a general measure for the government of the colonies with the deputations from the Lower Provinces, and with various leading individuals and public bodies in both the Canadas. But I had still more strongly impressed on me the great advantage of an united government, and I was gratified by finding the leading minds of the various colonies strongly and generally inclined to a scheme that would elevate their countries into something like a national existence. Lord Durham, after expressing his opinion in the report as on the whole in favor of the Legislative Union, and referring to the influ ence of the United States as surrounding us on every side, goes on to say : — If we wish to prevent the extension of this in fluence, it can only be done by raising up for the North American Colonist some nationality of his own, by elevating these small and unimportant communities into a society having some objects of a national importance, and by thus giving their inhabitants a country which they will be unwilling to see absorbed even into one more powerful. An union for common defence against foreign enemies is the natural bond of connection that holds together the great communities of the world, and between no parts of any kingdom or stete is the necessity for such an union more obvious than between the whole of these colonies. The whole of this branch ofthis remarkable report on the subject of an union of tbe British American Provinces should be read by every man in the several provinces, the argumente in ite favor are so able and so unanswerable. (Hear, hear.) I wiU honestly say, as many others have said before me, that if it could have been attained, I would have preferred a Legislative Union, but it is well understood that Lower Canada would never have agreed to it. Hon. Sir B. P. TACH:fi— Nor the Lower Provinces. Hon. Mr. ROSS — Nor, as my honorable and gaUant friend the Premier states, would the Lower Prorinces have consented to it. He may well be supposed to know, for he was in the Conference, presiding over its delibera tions, and had the very best opportunity of ascertaining the opinions of the delegatos. (Hear.) But coming down to later times — the times so well described by the hon. Premier in his exceUent speech — when diffi culties between Upper and Lower Canada began to thicken, the Hon. Mr. Galt brought up the scheme of Colonial Federation as the best mode of overcoming those difficulties, and made a most able speech on the subject in his place in ParUament. Subsequently, in 76 1858, that honorable minister entered the Govemment with the express understanding that the question would be dealt with. It is well known that he carried his point so far, that the subject was alluded to at tbe close of the session of 1858, in the Speech of Sir E. Head, the Govemor General, and com munication with the Imperial Government for permission to negotiate with the Lower Pro vinces on the subject was then undertaken. Shortly after this, three members of the Gov ernment, viz., Hon. Messrs. Cartier, Galt, and myself, went to England, and on the 25th of October, 1858, we laid our request before the Secretary of State for the Colonies, Sir E. B. Lytton, but difficulties, not of our creation, intervened and caused delay — Lord Derby's Government was defeated, and the matter continued in abeyance. To say, in the face of the facts I have stated, that the project is unknown and has taken the country by surprise, is to say what is not the case. Even last year it was dis tinctiy referred to in His Excellency's Speech at the close of the Session, and Hon. Messrs. Brown, McDougall and Mowat entered the Government with the express understanding that negociations were to ensue to bring about the proposed Federation. Hon. Messrs. Brown and Mowat went back to their constituents and were re-elected by acclamation, and although Hon. Mr. McDougall was defeated, he too was sub sequently elected for another constituency by acclamation. These gentlemen, instead of be ing decried and assailed for the part they have acted, should be honored for their patriotism. There has been no such thing as surprise. The resolutions were sent to all the members of the Legislature shortly after they were fully settled upon, and even before that the plan was published in aU the news papers of the province, and 1 am at a loss to know how it could have been made more pub lic. _ It is true the Opposition have not held public meetings to consider or object to the scheme, but the reason of this is, that the majority in its favor is so enormously laro-e that they did not venture to do so. (Ilear^) The next piece of disingenuousness on the part of the honorable member was in stating the military power of the Lower Provinces at 65,000 fighting men, or in limiting to that number the men competent for military ser vice — Hon. Mr. CURRIE— No ; I said 128 000 of whom 65,000 only were available, the rest being engaged on the water. Hon. Mr. ROSS— Why did not the hon orable member candidly state their census population, which at this time cannot be much short of a million souls ? Hon. Ser E. p. TACHE— With the per mission of the honorable member I wUl state the result of my experience in this matter. I have been for some time attached to the Adjutant General's office, where I had the opportunity off examining the particularly cor rect returns of the Militia for Lower Canada, and it always appears that out of a given population of both sexes the one-fifth pait shews the exact number of men, between the ages of 18 and 60, fit for military duty. This is the case all the world over. The law is as uniform as that wbich determines the relative numbers of the two sexes j' in aU Christian countries the males being 21 and a fraction to 20 females, while in countries where polygamy exists the case is exactly reversed, the females being 21 and a fraction, and the males 20. I have verified the fact that one-fifth of our population shows the correct number of mUitia^ men, and if the honorable member (Hon. Mr. Currie) wiU apply to the Adjutant General he will find it was so. Hon. Mr. CURRIE— I have taken the figures as fumished by a coUeague of the honorable member. Hon. Sir E. P. TACHE— Then my col league must be in contradiction with myself The number of mUitia-men in Upper Canada, by the last census, was 280,000, which, multi plied by 5, gives the population, with a few to spare. Hon. Mr. ROSS— I think it is now unne cessary for me to say anything else on this subject, as the honorable member has been fully answered by my honorable friend the Premier. All that I need add is that accord ing to the rule now stated, the mUlion of souls in the Lower Prorinces would produce 200,000 instead of 65,000 men, aU capable of bearing arms, those employed on the water being as liable to serve as those employed on the land. I ti ust we shall never require to muster our fighting men from any part of the proposed Confederation ; but the best preven tative of danger is preparedness to meet it. (Hear.) The honorable member next came to the question of the Intercolonial Railway, which after all seems to be his great pecuUar horror — the great piUar whioh overshadows and oppresses him. Well, I will turn again to Lord Durham's report, in which the fol lowing passage, remarkably apposite to the subject, appears: — 77 The completion of any satisfactory commu nication between Halifax and Quebec would, in fact, produce relations between theae provinces that would render a general union absolutely necessary. Several surveys proved that a railway would be perfectly practicable the whole way. ****** The formation of a railroad from Halifax to Quebec would entirely alter some of the distinguishing characteristics of the Cana das. Instead of being shut out from all direct intercourse with England during half the year, they would possess a far more certain and speedy communication throughout the winter than they now possess in summer. This passage greatly impressed the public men of the day — the Lapontaine-Bald- WIN Administration — in which Mr. HiNCKS and the honorable Premier each had a place. It was under* them that the railway legislation of the province received its first impulse, and last session I remember to have had occasion to quote the preamble of an aet passed in 1851, which recites: — That, whereas it is of the highest importance to the progress aud welfare of this province, that a Main Trunk line of railway should be made throughout the length thereof, and from the eastern frontier thereof through the provinces of New Brunswick and Nova Scotia to the city and port of Halifax; and it is therefore expedient that every effort should be made to ensure the construction of such railway. The second clause of the act Authorizes the Government, for the time being, to negotiate with the Imperial Government and New Brunswick and Nova Sootia, for the construction of the line, and to bargain therefor ; the funds to be obtained under Imperial guarantee. This act, honorable gentlemen, is still in force, and from the time of ite passing there has always been an anxiety among the public men of Canada to accomplish the construction of a railway to Halifax. All our govemments, without exception, have felt in the same way, and the Macdonald-Sicotte Administration took steps towards such an end. But the difficulties which followed stopped further pro gress, and, in fact, had almost stopped legisla tion altogether. Now, however, the Hon. Mr. Brown himself has made the construction of this raUway a part of the proposed Constitu tion, and has said, at a great meeting in To ronto, that if the project contained half-a-dozen intercolonial railways he would go for them all. (Hear, hear.) I feel morally certain that if the subject were fairly discussed in every town in Upper Canada, nine-tenths of the people would go heartily for it. Indeed, the railway is absolutely necessary and we cannot do without- it. Upper Canada alone, not to speak of Lower Canada at all, requires it, and so well is this understood in the Lower Provinces that an opponent of the Hon. Mr. Tilley — Hon. Mr. Smith — has lately said it was quite unnecessary for New Brunswick to spend any money on the work, as Upper Canada must build it for its own sake. As to the cost of this road, which has been so greatly exaggera ted, Mr. BRydges, who must be supposed to know solnething about the matter, has offered, on behalf of an English company, to under take the construction of the Une for £3,500,000 sterling. Everybody knows how much that is, and when reciprocity is gone. Upper Canada will do well to build the road on its own account, if all the other provinces refuse. They will hoWever not refuse, for the line is equaUy necessary for Lower Canada and the other provinces, and it is a great advantage to aU parties that it should be so. New Bruns wick requires it to open up its rich interior country which contains, as I have learned from advance reports of subordinate surveying en- igineers, some of the finest lands in the world. Halifax wants it, in order to bring freight to her great seaport when those of Quebec and Montreal are closed. It should have been commenced three years ago, and if it had it would now be built, and we should have heard :nothing about the abolition of the Reciprocity Treaty. (Hear, hear.) The honorable member then asked why, since there Was to be a disso lution and an appeal to the people of New Brunswick on the subject, there should not be one in Canada? The answer to that has al ready been given. The term of Parliament would have expired in that province on the 1st of June, and as the members would then have had to go to their constituents to give an account of their conduct during the previous four years, it was thought better to anticipate the time of ite dissolution by three or four months. In Nova Scotia and Newfoundland, however, where the elections were more recent, there are to be no elections. I wiU add that this mode of appealing to the people is not British but American, as under the British system the representatives of the peo ple in Parliament are presumed to be compe tent to decide all the public questions submit ted to them. When the unions between Eng land and Scotland, and between England and Ireland wCre effected, there were no appeals to the people, it being assumed that the people's chosen representatives were quite competent to judge of the measures. (Hear, hear.) Yet the members who have recently gone to the country have found pubUc opinion to be de- 78 cidedly in favor of the project. One honorable member (Hon. Mr. MAOP^ERSON) who repre sents 130,000 souls, has told the House that he has held meetings aU over the vast Division for which he sits, and that in every case he has explained the subject to them without finding a single person to oppose it. (Hear.) The honorable member for Niagara also said, that the project has been unfairly brought down. Now, I contend that it was brought down in the only way in which it could be submitted to us or to the people. Such a censure as this is beyond my comprehension, and it has cer tainly not been shewn to my satisfaction, nor I should imagine, to that if any body else, in what the unfairness consists. (Hear.) Next the honorable member attacked the financial terms of the scheme, and roUed up a mass of figures which I strongly suspected the honor able member himself did not understand. (Hear, and laughter.) The Minister of Finance fully and lucidly stated the case last evening, and I wiU read part of his speech to show how satisfactorily tbe matter was explained. Hon. Mr, Galt said: With reference to the trade of this country, he had taken the returns of 1863. The returns of the trade of Canada, in that year, taking exports and imports conjointly, showed an aggregate of $87,795,000. Taking the census of 1861, this trade represented thirty-five dollars per head of the population. The value of the import and ex port trade oi' New Brunswick, for the same year, reached $16,'729,680, amounting to sixty-six dol lars per head of its population. The aggregate trade of Nova Scotia, for the same period, amount ed to $18,622,359, or fifty-six dollars per head of its people. And iu the case of Prince Edward Island, the import and export trade amounted to $3,055,568, representing thirty-seven dollars per head of the population of that colony. The value of the total trade of Newfoundland was $1^,245,- 032, or eighiy-six dollars per head. The whole of these figures represented an aggregate trade of all the provinces, amounting to $137,447,567. (Hear, hear.) With respect to the revenue and expenditure of the provinces, I find a succinct statement in the speech delivered by Mr. Galt, at Sher hrooke, as foUows : — Revenue. Expenditure. Nova Scotia $1,185,629 $1,072,274 Wew Brunswick 899,991 884,613 Newfoundland (1862.). 480,000 479 420 Prince Edward Island. . 197,384 171718 Canada 9,760,316 10,742'807 Total, 1863 $12,523,320 13,350,832 Total, 1864 14,223,320 13,350,832 Estimated Surplus, 1864 $872,488 The Hon. Minister of Finance made some admirable remarks, at Sherhrooke, with refer ence to the indebtedness of the colonies, where he gave to a public meeting the following table : Nova Scotia (1863) $ 4,858,.54T New Brunswick " 6,702,991 Newfoundland (1862) 946,000 Prince Edward Island 240,6T3 Total, Maritime Provinces. .. .$11,748,211 Canada, (1863) 67,263,994 Grand Total $79,012,205 Reasoning from these figures, Mr. Galt stated that the debt of Canada amounts at the present time to about $27 per head, and that to enter into an equitable arrangement with the other provinces where the debts were about $25 per head either ours had to be reduced or theirs increased ; that is, when made chargeable to the Confed eration — and as the former is the preferable course, the surplus or excess of ours over $25 per head has to be locally assumed by Oar nada. He also explained that the debts of Prince Edward Island and of Newfoundland being less than $25 per head, an allowance had to be made to them to place them on an equal footing with the rest of the colonies. I wUl add, for the information of the honor able member for Niagara, the following official figures, which are instructive as showing that the people of the Maritime Provinces are a people who contribute, under their present tar iffs, a considerable sum to their respective treasuries : duty ON IMPORTS PER HEAD (1863). Newfoundland $3.53 Nova Scotia 2.46 New Brunswick 2,81 Prince Edward Island 1.69 Canada 1.85 Looking at aU these facte together, the con clusion appears to me irresistible that the arrangement proposed is in every respect an equitable one, and that it has been made with a riew to give to each province as nearly as possible what is right and fair, as far as what is right could be discovered. No honorable member could wish that Canada should have undue advantages over the other parties to the compact. The spirit in which the deliberations of the Conference were conducted was the correct one, and had its members tried to over reach each other— had they not been impressed with the necessity of mutual concessions for the common good — no result could ever have been arrived at. (Hear, hear.) The next point th* honorable member touched was the 79 assete of the Lower Provinces, and he asked very emphatically what they had to bring into the partnership. He said we had our valuable canals, but what had they ? WeU, they have their own raUways, built vrith provincial money. New Branswick has 200 miles, equal in value to eight miUions of doUars ; and Nova Scotia 150 miles or thereaboute, equal to about six miUions of doUars — ^though I am not sure of the exact extent. Hon. Mr. CURRIE— What do they pay? Hon. Mr. ROSS — ^What do our canals pay ? That, however, is not the question ; our canals are assete and valuable assete too, even though they do not pay much directly, for they cheapen transport to an extraordinary extent. I remember the time when the freight of a barrel of flour from Toronto to Montreal cost one doUar, and now it is lOd; and one cwt. of merchandize brought back also cost one dollar then, but now only Is. It is in this way that great pubUc works are valuable to a country. As to the earnings of the Lower Province raUways, the net profite — ^not the gross receipts —are stated, I beUeve, at $140,000 ; $70,000 in New Branswick, and $70,000 in Nova Sco tia, which, at any rate, is something. The WeUand Canal, of which the honorable gen tleman spoke so much, did not pay even the interest on its cost ; and if the canal on the American side of the Niagara is constructed, as we leam from the American press it is to be, the chief source of ite revenue wUl be cut off, and so far from being the best of the canals in a paying point of view, it will be the worst of all those connected with the St. Lawrence narigation. Let me not be understood, how ever, as depreciating the value of the WeUand Canal. None is more ready than I am to admit that its construction was wise, and that it has proved and wiU continue to prove bene ficial in the highest degree. (Hear.) The honorable member, liring as he does on the very banks of the WeUand Canal, very natur ally asked how the canals are to be enlarged ? WeU, they wiU be the property of the General Govemment, and when the trade requires it, that Government wUl, no doubt, appropriate money for the work. (Hear.) As to local taxation, all the prorinces will be put upon the same footing, and nothing can be fairer. If Upper Canada, which it is asserted is so much wealthier than the other portions of the Confederation, requires more than the eighty cents per head allowed to all the prorinces, its greater wealth will cause it feel the taxation so much the less. (Hear.) The honorable member next attacked the pro posed constitution of the Legislative Council, and insisted not only that it should have re mained elective, but that the principle of representation according to population should also have prevailed. But who ever heard that in a Federal Constitution the Upper House should be arranged on that principle? If that view be the sound one, the better way would be to have but one House, for tbe only effect of baring two Houses, both elected onthe basis of population, would be that one would constantly be combating the other, and the wheels of government would unavoidably be brought to a stand-still. In such a case the more powerful members of the Confederacy would be wholly unrestrained, and would com pletely overwhelm the weaker. This was fully considered on the adoption of a Constitu tion for the United States, according to which it is well known that the smaller States are represented in the Senate by the same number of senators as the larger ones — there being two members for each. The same principle has been adopted in arranging the terms of this proposed union, and for the same reason; riz., to protect the weaker parties to the compact. (Hear.) The next point referred to by the honorable member related to the Common Schools and the fund proposed to be created by the Act of 1849, but as the honorable member has been informed, one of its pro visions, that relating to this fund, has never been carried out ; with respect to the other, my honorable friend the Commissioner of Crown Lands has already explained that the million of acres have been set apart and a fund year by year created, while Parlia ment has annually set apart about $100,000 for the support of the schools. Upper Canada then has suffered no injustice in this. (Hear.) The honorable member at last concluded his remarks by drawing a sorry picture of the condition of Canada. According to him, it was about bankrupt when a number, of self- appointed delegates met and derised this scheme for its further embarrassment. So far from this being the case, it is a matter of history that the Govemment was formed expressly for the purpose of considering and framing this very scheme, and getting rid of the dead-locks which have so injuriously affected the legislation of the country. It appeared that by the time the honorable member came to this part of his speech he became so excited that he hardly knew what he was saying. (Hear, hear.) I will conclude by reading an extract from a remarkable speech delivered by His Honor the Speaker (the Honorable U. J. 80 Tessier) at a public meeting held in Quebec in 1858, when the three delegates were in England pressing for Confederation. It is as follows ; — In 1849 and 1852 there were passed acts of ojr Provincial Parliament to give some kind of guarantee for the construction of this (the Inter colonial) Railway. As a member of the Canadian Legislature, I pledge my best support to help this enterprise, and as to the Canadian nationality, distinct from the English or French nationality, composed of the best qualit'es of both, to which allusion has been made, I share in this sentiment, and I hope to see growing a Canadian Empire in North America, formed by a Federal Union of all the colonies connected and linked together by this Intercolonial Railway, that may hold a posi tion able to counterbalance the grasping power of the United States on th s continent. I refer to this able speech to show tbe en lightened views which that honorable member held on the subject, in common with many other distinguished public men. I have now done with the speech of the honorable member for Niagara, and will only say further that I hope the important subject before the House will be fully and completely discussed, so that the fine merits of the scheme may be thoroughly understood. I know it will be discussed calmly, with mutual forbearance and kindness, and with the excellent dispositions which hon orable gentlemen usually bring to the consi deration of the matters submitted for their judgment. (Hear, hear, and applause.) I feel satisfied that after such discussion the House wUl complete its share of this great work by assenting to the resolutions submitted for its approval. (Hear, hear.) Hon. Mr. ALEXANDER said— lam sure that the members of the Government desire (ihat this great question should be freely and fully discussed — I am sure they wiU be glad to see any members of tbis House frankly state wherein they conceived any of its details to be defective — I am sure that the suggestions fey the honorable gentlemen wbo represent the divisions of Victoria and Wellington will be duly weighed by the present Administration, as any other suggestions made in the spirit to accomplish good. But some members in both branches of the Legislature appear to be op posed to the Confederation scheme in toto. — They hold that the constitutional changes pro posed are unwise, and are fraught with gk'eat evil. The honorable member for Niagara Di vision (Hon. Mr. Currie) appears to be of that number, from the very strong appeal which he has made to this House against the whole measure, and I desire to reply to some of the arguments which he pressed, no doubt with very great force and abUity, upon our attention. He objects to the whole manner in which the Convention was formed ; he has no faith whatever in the result of their delibera tions. He maintains, in the boldest manner that tbe proposed union will be found disad vantageous and burdensome to all the prorinces uniting. He produced figures, prepared be forehand, to show that our burdens wUl be increased to the extent of at least $3,000,000 per annum — an increase which will be found oppressive to the industry of the prorinoe of Canada. I cannot understand from what source he has obtained his figures to arrive at such a conclusion. There is no difficulty in our being able to form a reliable idea as to the future financial position of the proposed federal and local governments. If we make an estimate of the whole revenue of those prorinces from their financial retums, taking the basis of 1863, we find tbat there wiU be a net revenue, available for the purposes of the General Govemment, after paying the subsidy of eighty cente per head to the local govern- mente, amounting to the sum of $9,643,108, while we are justified in assuming that the ordinary expenditure of the General Govem ment wiU not exceed $9,000,000. But, of course, there are always certain grants which are not classed under ordinary expenditure, and we shall have to provide for the Intercol onial Railway, and the widening and deepen ing of the St. Lawrence canals ; and suppose that we allow the very liberal item of $25,000,- 000 for those great objects, it wUl be admit ted on all sides that we shaU be enabled to obtain this amount under the Imperial Guar antee at four per cent., thus throwing upon the federal treasury the additional annual burden or charge of $1,000,000, which we may, with perfect right, say wiU be met in tbe foilowmg manner. It can be clearly shewn that it rests entirely with ourselves, whether we cannot meet all the claims of ordinary expenditure and interest on the federal debt with the amount, already named, of $9,643,108 ; while I am sure that most commercial men wUl allow that, with the power which we shaU have of imposing uniform tariff and excise duties throughout the whole united territory of these united provinces, we shall raise sufficient ad ditional revenue to meet this large item. But as I have, on a former occasion, said, we must inaugurate the dawn of our infant national ca reer with the utmost care and prudence. AU jobbery and lavish expenditure must be care fuUy avoided ; and if we do so, I venture to 81 prophesy that the anticipations of my honorable friend from Niagara wiU never be realized. I venture to say, in the face of all his evil fore bodings of increased burdens and debt, that we shaU find our position greatly improved. He appeared in the delivery of his able and power ful speech, very desirous to make out the strongest possible case, raking up even the public condemnation of the Provincial Secre tary at the famous Harrington meeting. I was one of those who voted against Mr. Scott's Separate School Bill, valuing, in common with the earnest electors at Harrington, our noble school system of Upper Canada, which carries the blessings of education throughout the width and breadth of the land ; but the peo ple generally are not prepared to reject the proposed Confederation, because of the po sition of that question, although there are in dividual electors who have strong conrictions on the subject. My honorable friend also dweUs upon the amount wbich wiU require to be appropriated for the militia. He appears to think that soldiers can be formed by magical influence in a day, and to effect a small saving he would elect to leave this magnificent ter ritory, with its valuable homesteads, exposed to be swept at any moment by a ruthless ag gressor ; or should not mind that our Canadian people should run the risk of being subjected to share the liability of three thousand mil lions of debt, in addition to their own burdens. The great body of the people of Upper Can ada have great faith in the expansion and growth of a young country such as this. (Hear, hear.) They do not forget the remarkable fact, that after experiencing a large deficiency in the revenue of the oountry for several years, with also, in addition, two very indifferent harveste, we are in a position to announce a considerable surplus of revenue at this mo ment ; and we look forward to this consolida tion of other great interests, fuU of hope, that it will give us a higher standing in the world — that it will give a great impetus to the growth of our population, our commerce and our revenue; and if the expenditure to be made on thoss great public improvements should sweU the debt, we shaU find ourselves in a condition of such prosperity that it wiU fall lightly upon us. There are so many con spiring circumstances to make us regard this great scheme with favor, the offspring, as it IS presented to us, of the large expetience and matured judgment of the political leaders of all these provinces. (Hear, hear.) We may venture to accept it and give it a fair trial as the best solution of the difficulties we have ex- 12 perienced in working out our present Legisla-- tive Union, It is very true that we have all opposed until now the construction of the In tercolonial Railway, because we have had grave doubts as to the commercial value of that work, and the prospect of its being self-sus taining ; but it certainly cannot be denied that the unfriendly attitude assumed towards us by the neighboring republic in respect to the trade relations between the two countries, makes it more prudential for us thus to secure a winter road to the great highway of the world's commerce — (hear, hear)— and it will certainly place us in a stronger po sition to negotiate fair and just terms in a renewal or modification of the Reciprocity Treaty. Whilst that public work is accepted as an indispensable part of the scheme, we are glad to be asfsured by the members of the Gov emment, that the deepening and widening of the St. Lawrence canals will be carried out simultaneously. Good cannot fail to flow from the union if justice is thus done to all its com ponent parts. As regards the question of finance, the proposition to assume the debts upon a certain basis on tho one hand, and to im pose a uniform tariff on the other, with certain reasonable stipulations, is perhaps the nearest approximation to dealing out common justice to aU, which could be arrived at, with so many varied interests there represented. We know that oar own delegates contended, as we now contend, that it would only have been fair and just that the future subsidy to be paid to each province of eighty cents per head should be based upon the census returns to be made every ten years. But this is not the moment to enlarge upon this point, or upon those de tails, to which, as I have before stated, the great body of my constituents take exception, and I wiU reserve myself, therefore, until we discuss the details seriatim. I would only, in conclusion, observe, that our most enlightoned citizens see nothing but weakness and insecur ity in our present fragmentary position, while they regard the proposed union as calculated in every way to give us importance, standing and strength — improve our credit — inspire a feeling of confidence in our future, and bring emigration io our shores. If we can look back with just pride to our giant growth during the last quarter of a century, so may we enter upon the extended relations now proposed full of hope, that with an accession of terri tory, population and power — commencing our career with a volume of trade exceeding $137,000,000, with such boundless resources to develop, and a country capable of sus- 82 taining any extent of population, there is no barrier to our extension and material progress. (Hear, hear.) We must feel that such a field for human enterprise and such a position is calculated to give our people higher aspira tions, and to make them cherish what may at the present moment be pronounced at this stage of our infancy but a dream; that just as the Russian Empire extends its powerful sway from the Black Soa to the polar regions, so may the people of British North America aspire to raise up a great Northern Power upon this continent, wbich shall be distin guished for the wisdem and stability of its institutions, wbich shall emulate the parent countries from whieh its races have sprung, in developing their manly virtues, and in diffusing the blessings of a higher cirilization wherever ite population may flow. (Cheers.) Hon. Mr. VIDAL said he cordiaUy agreed with the honorable gentleman who had spoken in desiring a union of tbe provinces, and with the Honorable Premier in believing that if such union could be arranged to the satisfaction of all the parties concerned, it ought to be effected. Without exactly committing himself to the opinion of the Honorable Premier that this country was upon an inclined plane which, if the proposed scheme of Confederation were rejected, would land us in the United States, he nevertheless thought that the arguments which he had advanced to demonstrate the necessity of some change which would secure our future exemption from the difficulties by which we were now beset were unanswered and unaswerable. Yet he was obliged to express his disapproval of the manner in which the scheme had been submitted to Parliament, as the course adopted entirely precluded the Legislature from suggesting any improvement or modification of its details. He felt, in common with all other honorable members, that the subject was one of vast importance ; that we were not legislating for the mere pur pose of escaping from unpleasant party political difficulties, but for the safety and prosperity of our country and the welfare of our children and descendants, and therefore could not agree with the honorable member for Brock (Hon. Mr. Blair), that immediate action was neces sary and that any delay was dangerous. Not withstanding all that had been said of this country being acquainted with tbe scheme and prepared to adopt it, he did not and could not believe that such was the case ; in arranging ite details no advice or assistance had been sought from the representatives of the people, and the people themselves were to have no voice in the matter. The scheme was as sumed to be perfect, and being perfect, must be adopted by the House without change or modification of any kind. It was said that nine-tenths of the people were in ite favor ; he believed that a very large majority ap proved of the general principle of union, but there were details of the plan which did not pass unchallenged. It was much to be re gretted that tbe resolutions had not been in troduced in such a way as would have per mitted the House to place upon record its views in respect to any part of them which might be unacceptable, and to suggest to the Imperial authorities who might frame the bill, such amendments as it considered desir able. I,;e thought the honorable member for WeUington (Hon. Mr. Sanborn) was in error in proposing the amendments of which he had given notice, — the resolutions before them were not, properly speaking, resolutions of the House, they must be regarded as a mere statement of certain agreements entered into by other parties and communicated to us for our information, and consequently could not in any way be altered or amended. Hon orable members were thus placed in an ano malous position — invited to discuss the whole subject freely and their assistance requested, and at the same time informed that no change would be effected — that in fact the only assistance wanted was the voting for the adop tion of the scheme as a whole. Whatever doubts may exist as to the change the proposed union might effect either for good or for Ul, he thought there was no doubt that there would necessarily be a vast increase of expense in carrying on the Govemment: without men tioning specific sums, it must be obvious that Canada would have to maintain two local legislatures with all their appurtenances, in addition to her share of the expense of the Federal Legislature, which latter could scarcely be expected to be less than at present. With regard to the proposed change in the constitu tion ofthe Legislative Council, he was far from considering it a wise step ; like the honorable member for Niagara (Hon. Mr. Currie), he had great regard for the right of the franchise as now enjoyed by the people, and felt that it would be improper to vote away that privilege of his constituents without their authority or assent. He had been sent here by them to assist in legislating under the Constitution we now have, and not to change it. It was admitted by aU that the elective system had operated advan tageously, and why then should it be aban doned? — why initiate a retrograde move- 83 ment unsought for by the country ? Much had been said about the risk of coUision between two elective Houses, that legislation might come to a dead-lock ; now it was a remarkable fact that under the present system there had been no such difficulties, while both in England and in Canada, prerious to the introduction of the elective system, they had occurred, and on several occasions the power of the Crown had been called in to overcome them by appointing additional members. What would be the position of the House under the new scheme? It would be the most irresponsible body in the world ; and if a dead-lock should occur there would be no way of overcoming it, for the casualties of death, resignation or acceptance of office, which had been so strongly insisted upon as sufficiently numerous to enable the -Government of the day to modify the character of the House, would not in his opinion be adequate to meet such an exigency. Such was apparently the riew of the Colonial Secretary ; and it would in all probability be found necessary to leave the Crown unfettered in the exercise of its prerogative of apppointment. The hon orable gentleman concluded by saying that he would not now comment upon any other detaUs of the scheme, as he understood the resolutions were to be discussed seriatim, but he did not very clearly see the advantage of such a discussion when it was so distinctly stated that the only question for the House to determine was whether the scheme as now submitted, unchanged and unchangeable, should be rejected or adopted. (Hear, hear.) Hon. Sir E. P. TACHE said the scheme, it was true, must be taken as a whole, or re jected, since it was not the property of the Gov ernment of Canada alone, but of aU the other provmces as weU. But it did not therefore follow that honorable members who might dis sent from some parts of it might not inscribe that dissent on the journals. If the amend- mente proposed were passed, the motion for an Address would not be pressed; but, if they did not carry, then the votes of the honorable mem bers who had supported them would be on record. In former days, before the yeas and nays were taken, it was the practice for members who objected to any particular measure, in confor mity with the practice of the House of Lords, to enter a protest on the journals exhibiting their reasons for dissent, and he knew of no rule which would prevent such a course from being pursued on the present occasion. It was quite in the power of honorable members, if they chose, to propose amendmente, and so secure the advantage of placing their views before the country. Cries of " adjourn I adjourn I" Hon. Mr. MOORE said, as there was an evident desire for an adjournment, he'would not occupy the time of the House for more than a few minutes, his intention being merely to refer to a portion of the remarks made by the honorable gentleman (Hon. Mr. Vidal) who had just sat down. Though he generally agreed in what had been said by that honor able member, there was one particular in which he (Hon. Mr. Moore) thought he was in eiTor. He (Hon. Mr. Vidal) seemed to have become impressed with the idea that it was not compe tent for the House to amend the resolutions, but that they should either be adopted or rejected as a whole. It was true the Govemment had so laid it down, but he (Hon. Mr. Moore) held that the question could be dealt with in the same manner as any other that might come before the House. His honorable friend was also of opinion that, if no suggestions or amend ments were to be adopted, it was wasting time to discuss the scheme. In this respect he (Hon. Mr. Moore) begged to differ with the honorable gentleman, holding that it was not only useful, but essentially necessary that the details ofa measure fraught with such grave and momentous importance to the country should be thoroughly discussed. A calm and con siderate discussion— and every latitude for discussion — were necessary, and he hoped tbe Government would not press the measure with any unseemly haste, for they not only owed it to the Legislature, but to the country, that ample opportunity for consideration of the project should be afforded to the people's representatives. He also considered it import ant that members should have an opportunity to confer with their constituents on the sub- jeet, in order to vote advisedly when the time came ; and he trusted the Govemment would not press the matter, nor hinder the expression of views, even if those views extended to amendment in certain particulars. The hon orable gentleman then sat down, repeating that he thought the House might deal with the question as with any other that might come before it. The debate was then adjourned until the morrow. 84 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY. Wednesday, Fehruary 8, 1865. The Order of the Day for resuming the debate on the Resolution for a Union of the British North American Colonies, having been read, — Hon. GEORGE BROWN rose and said : Mr. Speaker, it is with no ordinary gratifi cation I rise to address the House on this occasion. I cannot help feeling that the struggle of half a life-time for constitu tional reform — the agitations in the country, and tbe fierce contests in this chamber — the strife and the discord and the abuse of many years, — are all compensated by the great scheme of reform which is now in your hands. (Cheers.) The Attorney General for Upper Canada, as well as the Attorney General for Lower Canada, in addi-essing the House last night, were anxious to have it understood that this scheme for uniting British America under one government, is something different from "representation by population," — is something different from "joint authority," — but is in fact the very scheme of the Govemment of which they were members in 1858. Now, sir, it is aU very well that my honorable friends should receive credit for the large share they have contributed towards maturing the measure before the House ; but I could not help reflecting while they spoke, that if this was their very scheme in 1858, they succeeded wonderfully in bottiing it up from all the worid except themselves — • (hear, hear) — and I could not help regretting that we had to wait till 1864 until this mysterious plant of 1858 was forced to fruition. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) For myself, sir, I care not who gets the credit of this scheme, — I believe it contains the best features of all the suggestions that have been made in the last ten years for the settlement of our troubles ; and the whole feeling in my mind now is one of joy and thankfulness that there were found men of position and influence in Canada who, at a moment of serious crisis, had nerve and patriotism enough to cast aside political partisanship, to banish personal considera tions, and unite for the accomplishment of a measure so fraught with advantage to their common country. (Cheers.) It was a bold step in the then existing state of public feeling for many members of the House to vote for the Constitutional Committee moved for by me last session — it was a very bold step for many of the members of that committee to speak and vote candidly upon it — it was a still bolder thing for many to place their names to the report that emanated from that committee —but it was an infinitely bolder step for the gen tlemen who now occupy these treasury benches to brave the misconceptions and suspicions that would certainly attach to the act, and enter the same Government. And it is not to be denied that such a Coalition demanded no ordinary justification. But who does not feel that every one of us has to-day ample justifi cation and reward for all we did in the docu ment now under discussion ? (Cheers.) But seven short months have passed away since the CoaUtion Govemment was formed, yet already arc we submitting a scheme well-weighed and matured, for the erection of a future empire, — a scheme which has been received at home and abroad with aliflost universal approval. Hon. Mr. HOLTON— (IronicaUy) hear! hear ! I Hon. Mr. BROWN— My hon. friend dis sents from that, but is it possible truthfully to deny it ? Has it not been approved and en dorsed by the govemments of five separate colonies ?— Has it not received the all but unanimous approval of the press of Canada ? — Has it not been heartUy and unequivocally endorsed by the electors of Canada ? (Cries of hear, hear, and no, no.) My honorable friend opposite cries " no, no," but I say "yes, yes." Since the Coalition was formed, and its policy of Federal union announced, there have been no fewer than twenty-five parliamentaiy elect ions — fourteen for members of the Upper House, and eleven for members of the Lower House. At the fourteen Upper House con tests, but three candidates dared to show themselves before the people in opposition to the Govemment scheme ; and of these, two were rejected, and one — only one — succeeded in finding a seat. (Hear, hear.) At the eleven contests for the Lower House, but one candi date on either side of politics ventured to op pose the scheme, and I hope that even he wTU yet cast his vote in favor of Confederation. (Hear, hear.) Of these twenty-five electoral contests, fourteen wore in Upper Canada, but not at one of them did a candidate appear in opposition to our scheme. And let it be ob served how large a portion of the country theso twenty-five electoral districts embraced. It is true that the eleven Lower House elec tions only included that number of counties, but the fourteen Upper House elections em braced no fewer than forty counties. (^Hear, hear.) Of the 130 constituencies, therefore, into which Canada is dirided for representa- 85 tion in this chamber, not fewer than fifty have been called on since our scheme was announced " to pronounce at the polls their verdict upon it, and at the whole of them but four candidates on both sides of politics ventured to give it opposition. (Cheers.) Was I not right then in asserting that the electors of Canada had, in the most marked manner, pronounced in favor of the scheme ? (Hear, hear.) And will honorable gentlemen deny that the people and press of Great Britain have received it with acclamations of approval? — that the Gov ernment of England have cordially endorsed I and accepted it ? — aye, that even tho press ; and the public men of the United States have spoken of it with a degree of respect they never before accorded to any colonial movement ? Sir, I venture to assert that no scheme of equal magnitude, ever placed before the world, was received with higher eulogiums, with more universal approbation, than the mea- \sure we have now the honor of submit- .'ting for the acceptance of the Canadian 'Parliament. And no higher eulogy could, I think, be pronounced than that I heard a few ' weeks ago from the lips of one of the fore most of British statesmen, that the system of government we proposed seemed to him a happy compound of the best features of the British and American Constitutions. And well, Mr. Speaker, might our present atti tude in Canada arrest the earnest attention of other countries. Here is a people composed of two distinct races, speaking different lan guages, with religious and social and municip al and educational institutions totally different; with sectional hostilities of such a character as to render government for many years well-nigh impossible ; with a Constitution so unjust in the view of one section as to justify any resort to enforce a remedy. And yet, sir, here we sit, patiently and temperately discussing how these great evUs and hostUities may justly and amicably be swept away forever. (Hear, hear.) We are endeavoring to adjust har moniously greater difficulties than have plunged other countries into all the horrors of civil war. We are striving to do peacefully and satisfactorily what Holland and Belgium, after y^ears of strife, were unable to accomplish. We are seeking by calm discussion to settle ques tions that Austria and Hungary, that Den mark and Germany, that Russia and Poland, could only crush by the iron heel of armed force. We are seeking to do without foreign intervention that which deluged in blood thej sunny plains of Italy. We are striving to settle forever issues hardly less momentousj than those that have rent the neighboring re public and are now exposing it to all the hor rors of civil war. (Hear, hear.) Have we not then, Mr. Speaker, great cause of thank fulness that we have found a better way for the solution of our troubles than that which has entailed on other countries such de plorable results ? And should not every one of us endeavor to rise to the magnitude of the occasion, and earnestly seek to deal with this question to the end in the same candid and conciliatory spirit in which, so far, it has been discussed ? ^Loud cries of hear, hear.) The scene presented by this chamber at this moment, I venture to affirm, has few parallels in history. One hundred years have passed away since these provinces became by conquest part of the British Empire. I speak in no boastful spirit — I desire not for a moment to excite a painful thought — what was then the fortune of war of the brave French nation, might have been ours on that well-fought field. I recall those olden times merely to mark the fact that here sit to-day the descendants of the victors and the vanquished in the fight of 1759, with all the differences of language, religion, civil law, and social habit, nearly as distinctly marked as they were a century ago. (Hear, hear.) Here we sit to-day seeking amicably to find a remedy for constitutional evils and injustice complained of — ^by the vanquished ? No, sir — but complained of by the conquerors ! ("Cheers by the French Canadians.) Here sit the representatives of the British popula tion claiming justice — only justice ; and here sit the representatives of the French popula tion, discussing in the French tongue whether we shaU have it. One hundred years have passed away since the conquest of Quebec, but here sit the children of the victor and the vanquished, all avowing hearty attachment to the British Crown — all earnestly deliberating how we shall best extend the blessings of British institutions — how a great people may be established on this continent in close and hearty connection with Great Britain. (Cheers.) Where, sir, in the page of history, shall we find a parallel to this ? WUl it not stand _ as an imperishable monument to the generosity of British rale? And it is not in Canada alone that this scene is being witnessed. Four other colonies are at this moment occupied as we are — declaring their hearty love for the parent State, and deliberating with us how they may best discharge the great duty en trusted to their hands, and give their aid in developing the teeming resources of these vast 86 possessions. And weU, Mr. Speaker, may the work we have unitedly proposed rouse the ambition and energy of every true man in British America. Look, sir, at the map of the continent of America, and mark that island (Newfoundland) commanding the mouth of the noble river that almost cuts our conti nent in twain. WeU, sir, that island is equal in'extent to the kingdom of Portugal. Cross the straits to the main land, and you touch the hospitable shores of Nova Scotia, a country as large as the kingdom of Greece. Then mark the sister prorince of New Brunswick — equal in extent to Denmark and Switzerland combined. Pass up the river St. Lawrence to Lower Canada — a country as large as France. Pass on to Upper Canada, — twenty thousand square miles larger than Great Britain and Ireland put together. Cross over the continent to the shores of the Pacific, and you are in British Columbia, the land of golden promise, — equal in extent to the Austrian Empire. I speak not now of the vast Indian Territories that lie between — greater in extent than the whole soil of Russia — and that wUl ere long, I trust, be opened up to cirilization under the auspices ofthe British American Confederation. (Cheers.) Well, sir, the bold scheme in your hands is nothing less than to gather aU these countries into one — to organize them all under one govemment, with the protection of the British flag, and in heartiest sympathy and affection with our fellow-subjects in the land that gave us birth. (Cheers.) Our scheme is to estabUsh a gov emment that wiU seek to turn the tide of European emigration into this northern half of the American continent—that vrill strive to develope its great natural resources — and that will endeavor to maintain liberty, and justice, and Christianity throughout the land. Mr. T. C. wallbridge— When 7 Hon. Mr. CARTIER— Very soon! Hon. Mr. BROWN— The hon. member for North Hastings asks when aU this can be done ? Sir, the whole great ends of this Con federation may not be reaUzed in the lifetime of many who now hear me. We imagine not tha,t such a structure can be built in a month or in a year. What we propose now is but to lay the foundations of the structure — to set in motion the governmental machinery that wUl one day, we trust, extend from the Atiantic to the Pacific. And we take especial credit to ourselves that the system we have devised, whileadmirably adapted to our present situa tion, is capable of gradual and efficient expan sion in future years to meet aU the great pur poses contemplated by our scheme. But if the honorable gentleman wUl only recall to mind that when the United States seceded from the Mother Country, and for many years after wards their population was not nearly equal to ours at this moment; that their internal improvemente did not then approach to what we have already attained ; and that their trade and commerce was not then a third of what ours has already reached ; I think he wUl see that the fulfilment of our hopes may not be so very remote as at first sight might be iniagined — (hear, hear.) And he will be strengthened in that conviction if he remembers that what we propose to do is to be done with the cordial sympathy and assistance of that great Power of which it is our happiness to form a part. (Hear, hear.) Such, Mr. Speaker, are the objects of attainment to whioh the British American Conference pledged iteelf in Octo ber. And said I not rightly that such a scheme is well fitted to fire the ambition and rouse the energies of every member of this House? Does it not lift us above the petty politics of the past, and present to us high purposes and great interests that may well call forth aU the inteUectual abUity and all the energy and enterprise to be found among us ? (Cheers.) I readily admit all the gravity of the question — and that it ought to be considered cautiously and thoroughly before adoption. Far be it from me to deprecate the closest criticism, or to doubt for a moment the sincerity or patriot ism of those who feel it their duty to oppoae the measure. But in considering a question on which hangs the future destiny of half a continent, ought not the spirit of mere fault finding to be hushed? — ought not the voice of partisanship to be banished from our debates ? — ought we not to sit down and discuss the arguments presented in the eamest and candid spirit of men, bound by the same interests, seeking a common end, and loving the same country? (Hear, hear, and cheers.) Some honorable gentlemen seem to imagine that the members of Government have a deeper interest in this scheme than others— but what possible interest can any of us have except that which we share with every citizen of the land ? What risk does any one run from this measure in which all of us do not fully participate ? What possible inducement could we have to urge this scheme, except our earnest and heartfelt con viction that it will inure to the soUd and lasting advantage of our country? (Hear, hear.) There is one consideration, Mr. Speak er, that cannot be banished from thig discus sion, and that ought, I think, to be remembered 87 in every word we utter ; it is that the consti tutional system of Canada cannot remain as it is now. (Loud cries of hear, hear.) Something must be done. We cannot stand still. We cannot go back to chronic, sectional hostility and discord — ^to a state of perpetual Ministerial crises. The events of the last eight months cannot be obliterated ; the solemn admissions of men of all parties can never be eraised. The claims of Upper Canada for justice must be met, and met now. I say, then, that every one who raises his voice in hostility to this measure is bound to keep before him, when he speaks, all the perUous consequences of its rejection, — I say that no man who has a true regard for the weU-being of Canada, can give a vote against this scheme, unless he is prepared to offer, in amendment, some better remedy for the evUs and injustice that have so long threat ened the peace of our country. (Hear, hear.) And not only must the scheme proposed in amendment be a better scheme— it must be something that can be carried. (Hear, hear.) I see an honorable friend now before me, for whose opinions I have the very highest respect, who says to me : " Mr. Brown, you should not have settled this part of the plan as you have done ; here is the way you should have framed it." " Well, my dear sir," is my reply, " I perfectly agree with you, but it could not be done. Whether we ask for parliamentary reform for Canada alone or in union with the Maritime Prorinces, the French Canadians must have their views consulted as well as us. This scheme can be carried, and no scheme can be that has not the support of both sec tions ofthe prorince." Hon. Mr. CARTIER— Hear, hear ! there is the question ! Hon. Mr. BROWN— Yes, that is the ques tion and the whole question. No constitution ever framed was without defect; no act of human wisdom was ever free from imperfec tion ; no amount of talent and wisdom and integrity combined in preparing such a scheme could have placed it beyond the reach of criti cism. And the framers of this scheme had immense special difficulties to overcome. We had the prejudices of race and language and reUgion to deal with ; and we had to encounter all the rivalries of trade and commerce, and all the jealousies of diversified local interests. To assert, then, that our scheme is without fault, would be folly. It was necessarily the work of concession ; not one of the thirty-three framers but had, on some pointe, to yield his opinions ; and, for myself, I freely admit that I straggled earnestly, for days together, to have portions of the scheme amended. But, Mr. Speaker, admitting all this — admitting aU the difficulties that beset us — admitting frankly that defecte in the measure exist — I say that, taking the scheme as a whole, it has my cordial, enthusiastic support, without hesi tation or reservation. (Hear, hear.) I be lieve it wiU accomplish all, and more than all, that wc, who have so long fought the battle of parliamentary reform, ever hoped to see ac complished. I believe that, whUe granting se curity for local interests, it wUl give free scope for carrying out the will of the whole people in general matters — that it will draw closer the bonds that imite us to Great Britain — and that it will lay the foundations deep and strong of a powerful and prosperous people. (Cheers.) And if the House wUl aUow me to trespass to a somewhat unusual degree on its indulgence, I am satisfied that I can clear ly establish that such are the results fairly to be anticipated from the measure. Mr. Speak er, there are two views in which this scheme may be regarded, namely, the existing evils it will remedy, and the new advantages it will secure for us as a people. Let us begin by examining its remedial prorisions. First, then, it applies a complete and satisfactory remedy to the injustice of the existing system of par liamentary representation. (Hear, hear.) 'The people of Upper Canada have bitterly com plained that though they numbered four hun dred thousand souls mere than the population of Lower Canada, aud though they have con tributed three or four pounds to the general revenue for every pound contributed by the sister province, yet the Lower Canadians send to Parliament as many representatives as they do. Now, sir, the measure in your hands brings tbis injustice to an end ; — it sweeps away the line of demarcation between the two sections on all matters common to the whole' province ; it gives representation according to numbers wherever found in the House of As sembly ; and it provides a simple and conve nient system for re-adjusting the representa tion after each decennial census. (Cheers.) To this proposed constitution of the Lower Chamber, I have heard only two objections. It has been alleged that until after the census of 1871, the number of members is to re main as at present; but this is a mistake. Upper Canada is to receive from the start eighty-two representatives, and Lower Canada sixty-five ; and whatever increase the census of 1871 may establish wUl be then adjusted. It has also been objected that though the reso lutions provide that the existing Parliament 88 of Canada shaU establish the electoral divisions for the first organization of the Federal Par liament, they do not determine in whose hands the duty of distributing any additional mem bers is to bo vested. No doubt on this head need exist ; the Federal Parliament will of course have fuU power to regulate all arrange- mente for the election of its own members. But I am told by Upper Canadians — the con stitution of the Lower House is aU well enough, it is in the Upper House arrangements that the scheme is objectionable. And first, it is said that Upper Canada should have had in the Legislative Council a greater number of members than Lower Canada. — Mr. T. C. WALLBRIDGE— Hear, hear! Hon. Mr. BROWN— The honorable mem ber for North Hastings is of that opinion ; but that honorable gentleman is in favor of a legislative union, and had we been form ing a legislative union, there might have been [some force in the demand. But the very essence of our compact is that the union shall bo federal and not legisla tive. Our Lower Canada friends have agreed to give us representation by population in the Lower House, on the express condition that they shall have equality in the Upper House. On no otber condition could we have advanced a step ; and, for my part, I am quite wiUing they should have it. In maintaining the existing sectional boundaries and handing over the control of local matters to local bodies, we recognize, to a certain extent, a diversity of interests ; and it was quite natural that tho protection for those interests, by equaUty in tho Upper Chamber, should be demanded by the less numerous provinces. Honorable gentlemen may say that it will erect a barrier in tho Upper House against the just influence that Upper Canada will ex ercise, by her numbers, in the Lower House, over the general legislation of the countiy! That may be true, to a certain extent, but honorable gentiemen wiU bear in mind that that barrier, be it more or less, will not affect money bills. (Hear, hear.) Hitherto we have been paying a vast proportion of the tixes, with littie or no control over the ex- panditure. But, under this plan, by our just influence in the Lower Chamber, we shall hold the purse strings. If, from this CDucession of equality in the Upper Chamber, we are restrained from forcing through meas ures which our friends of Lower Canada may consider injurious to their interests, we shaU, at any rate, have power, which we never had before, to prevent them from forcing through whatever we may deem unjust to us. I think the compromise a fair one, and am per suaded that it will work easily and satisfac- torUy. (Hear, hear.) But it has been said that the members of the Upper House ought not to be appointed by the Crown, but should continue to be elected by the people at large. On that question my views have been often expressed. I have always been opposed to a second elective chamber, and I am so stUl, from the conviction that two elective houses are inconsistent with the right working of the British parliamentary system. I voted, almost alone, against the change when the CouncU was made elective, but I have lived to see a vast majority of those who did the deed wish it had not been done. It is quite true, and I am glad to acknowledge it, that many evils an ticipated from the change, when the measure was adopted, have not been realized. (Hear, hear.) I readily admit that men of the high est character and position have been brought into the Council by the elective system, but it is equally true that the system of appointment brought into it men of the highest character and position. Whether appointed by the Crown or elected by the people, since theintroducticn of pariiamentary govemment, the men who have composed the Upper House of this Legislature have been men who would have done honor to any legislature in the world. But what wo most feared was, that the Legislative Council lors would be elected under party responsibili ties ; that a partisan spirit would soon show itself in the chamber; and that the right would soon be asserted to an equal control with this House over money biUs. That fear has not been realised to any dangerous extent. But is it not possible that such a claim might ere long be asserted ? Do we not hear, even now, mutterings of a coming demand for it? Nor can we forget that the elected members came into that chamber gradually ; that the large number of old appointed members exer cised much influence in maintaining the old forms of the House, the old style of debate, and the old barriers against encroachment on the privileges of the commons. But the ap pointed members of the CouncU are gradually passing away, and when the elective element becomes supreme, who will venture to affirm that the Council would not claim that power over money biUs which this House claims as of right belonging to itself? Could they not justly say that they represent the people as weU as wo do, and that the control of the purse strings ought, therefore, to belong to them as much as to us. (Hear, hear.) It is said they have not 89 the power. But what is to prevent them from enforcing it ? Suppose we had a conservative majority here, and a reform majority above — or a conservative majority above and a reform majority here— all elected under party obliga tions, — what is to prevent a dead-look between the chambers ? It may be called unconstitu tional — but what is to prevent the Councillors (especially if they feel that in the dispute of the hour they have the country at their back) from practically exercising aU the pow ers that belong to us ? They might amend our money bills, tbey might throw out all our bills if they liked, and bring to a stop the whole machinery of government. And what could we do to prevent them ? But, even supposing this were not the case, and that the elective Upper House continued to be guided by that discretion which has heretofore actu ated its proceedings, — stUl, I think, we must aU feel that the election of members for such enormous districte as form the constituencies of the Upper House has become a great prac tical inconvenience. I say this from personal experience, baring long taken an active inter est in the electoral contests in Upper Canada. We have found greater difficulty in inducing candidates to offer for seate in the Upper House, than in getting ten times the number for the Lower House. The constituencies are so vast, that it is difficult to find gentlemen who have tbe will to incur the labor of such a contest, who are sufficiently known and popular enough throughout districts so wide, and who have money enough — (hear) — to pay the enormous bUls, not incurred in any corrupt way, — do not fancy that I mean that for a moment — ^but the bills that are sent in after the contest is over, and which the candi dates are compeUed to pay if they ever hope to present themselves for re-election. (Hear, hear.) But honorable gentlemen say — " This is aU very weU, but you are taking an impor tant power out of the hands of the people, which they now possess." Now this is a mistake. We do not propose to do anything of the sort. What we propose is, that the Upper House shaU be appointed from the best men of the country by those holding the con fidence of the representatives of the people in this Chamber. It is proposed that the Govern ment of the day, which only lives by the ap proval of this Chamber, shaU make the ap- pointmente, and be responsible to the people for the selections they shaU make. (Hear, hear.) Not a single appointment could be made, with regard to which the Govemment would not be open to censure, and which the 13 representatives of the people, in this House, would not have an opportunity of condemning. For myself, I have maintained the appointed principle, as in opposition to the elective, ever since I came into public life, and have never hesitated, when before tbe people, to state my opinions in the broadest manner ; and yet not in a single instance have I ever found a con stituency in Upper Canada, or a public meet ing declaring its disapproval of appointment by the Crown and its desire for election by the people at large. When the change was made in 1855 there was not a single petition from the people asking for it; — it was in a manner forced on the Legislature. The real reason for the change was, that before Responsible Government was introduced into this country, while the old oligarchical system existed, the Upper House continuously and systemati cally was at war with the popular branch, and threw out every measure of a liberal ten dency. The result was, that in the famous ninety-two resolutior s the introduction of the elective principle into the Upper House was declared to be indispensable. So long as Mr. Robert Baldwin remained in public life, the thing could not be done ; but when be left, tbe deed was consummated. But it is said, that if the members are to be appointed for lifo, the number should be unlimited — that, in the event of a dead lock arising be tween that chamber and this, there should be power to overcome the difficulty by the ap pointment of more members. Well, under the British system, in the case of a legislative union, that might be a legitimate provision. But honorable gentlemen must see that tbe limitation of the numbers in the Upper House lies at the base of the whole compact on which this scheme rests. (Hear, hear.) It is perfectly clear, as was contended by those who represented Lower Canada in the Con ference, that if the number of the Legis lative Councillors was made capable of in crease, you would thereby sweep away tbe whole protection they bad from the tipper Chamber. But it has been said that, though you may not give the power to the Executive to increase the numbers of the Upper House, in the event of a dead-lock, you might limit the term for which the members are appointed. I was myself in favor of that proposition. I thought it would be weU to provide for a more frequent change in the composition ofthe Upper House, and lessen the danger of the chamber being largely composed of gentiemen whose advanced years might forbid the punc tual and rigorous discharge of their public 88 of Canada shaU establish the electoral divisions for the first organization of the Federal Par liament, they do not determine in whose hands the duty of distributing any additional mem bers is to be vested. No doubt on this head need exist ; the Federal Parliament will of course have full power to regulate all arrange- mente for the election of its own members. But I am told by Upper Canadians — the con stitution of the Lower House is all well enough, it is in the Upper House arrangements that the scheme is objectionable. And first, it is said that Upper Canada should have had in the Legislative Council a greater number of members than Lower Canada. — Mr. T. C. WALLBRIDGE— Hear, hear! Hon. Mr. BROWN— The honorable mem ber for North Hastings is of that opinion ; but that honorable gentleman is in favor of a legislative union, and had we been form ing a legislative union, there might have been [some force in the demand. But the very essence of our compact is that the union shall be federal and not legisla tive. Our Lower Canada friends have agreed to give us representation by population in the Lower House, on the express condition that they shaU have equality in the Upper House. On no otber condition could we have advanced a step; and, for my part, I am quite willing they should have it. In maintaining the existing sectional boundaries and handing over the control of local matters to local bodies, we recognize, to a certain extent, a diversity of interests ; and it was quite natural that tho protection for those interests, by equality in tho Upper Chamber, should be demanded by the less numerous provinces. Honorable gentiemen may say that it wUl erect a barrier in tho Upper House against the just influence that Upper Canada will ex ercise, by her numbers, in the Lower House, over the general legislation of the country. That may be true, to a certain extont, but honorable gentiemen will bear in mind that that barrier, be it more or less, will not affect money bills. (Hear, hoar.) Hitherto we have been paying a vast proportion of the tixes, with little or no control over the ex- psnditure. But, under this plan, by our just influence in the Lower Chamber, we shall hold the purse strings. If, from this CDucession of equality in the Upper Chamber, we are restrained from forcing through meas ures which our friends of Lower Canada may CDnsider injurious to their interests, we shall, at any rate, have power, which we never had before, to prevent tbem from forcing through whatever we may deem unjust to us. I think the compromise a fair one, and am per suaded that it will work easily and satisfac- torUy. (Hear, hear.) But it has been said that the members of the Upper House ought not to be appointed by the Crown, but should continue to be elected by the people at large. On that question my views have been often expressed. I have always been opposed to a second elective chamber, and I am so still, from the conviction that two elective houses are inconsistent with the right working of the British parliamentary system. I voted, almost alone, against the change when the CouncU was made elective, but I have lived to see a vast majority of those who did the deed wish it had not been done. It is quite true, and I am glad to acknowledge it, that many evils an ticipated from the change, when the measure was adopted, have not been realized. (Hear, hear.) I readily admit that men of the high est character and position have been brought into the Council by the elective system, but it is equally true that the system of appointment brought into it men of the highest character and position. Whether appointed by the Crown or elected by the people, since theintroducticn of parhamentary government, the men who have composed the Upper House of this Legislature have been men who would have done honor to any legislature in the world. But what we most feared was, that the Legislative Council lors would be elected under party responsibili ties ; that a partisan spirit would soon show itself in the chamber; and that the right would soon be asserted to an equal control with this House over money bills. That fear has not been realised to any dangerous extent. But is it not possible that such a claim might ere long be asserted ? Do we not hear, even now, mutterings of a coming demand for it ? Nor can we forget that the elected members came into that chamber graduaUy ; that the large number of old appointed members exer cised much influence in maintaining the old forms of the House, the old style of debate, and the old barriers against encroachment on the privileges of the commons. But the ap pointed members of the Council are gradually passing away, and when the elective element becomes supreme, who will venture to affirm that the CouncU would not claim that power over money biUs which this House claims as of right belonging to itself? Could they not justly say that they represent the people as weU as wc do, and that the control of the purse strings ought, therefore, to belong to them as much as to us. (Hear, hear.) It is said they have not 89 the power. But what is to prevent them from enforcing it ? Suppose we had a conservative majority here, and a reform majority above — or a conservative majority above and a reform majority here — all elected under party obliga tions, — what is to prevent a dead-lock between the chambers ? It may be called unconstitu tional — ^but what is to prevent the Councillors (especially if they feel that in the dispute of the hour they have the country at their back) from practically exercising aU the pow ers that belong to us ? They might amend our money biUs, they might throw out all our bills if they liked, and bring to a stop the whole machinery of government. And what cotdd we do to prevent them ? But, even supposing this were not the case, and that the elective Upper House continued to be guided by that discretion which has heretofore actu ated its proceedings, — stUl, I think, we must all feel that the election of members for such enormous districts as form the constituencies of the Upper House has become a great prac tical inconvenience. I say this from personal experience, having long taken an active inter est in the electoral contests in Upper Canada. We have found greater difficulty in inducing candidates to offer for seats in the Upper House, than in getting ten times the number for the Lower House. The constituencies are so vast, that it is difficult to find gentlemen who have the will to incur the labor of such a contest, who are sufficiently known and popular enough throughout districts so wide, and who have money enough — (hear) — to pay the enormous biUs, not incurred in any corrupt way, — do not fancy that I mean that for a moment — but the bills that are sent in after the contest is over, and which the candi dates are compelled to pay if they ever hope to present themselves for re-election. (Hear, hear.) But honorable gentlemen say — " This is all very weU, but you are taking an impor tant power out of the hands of the people, which they now possess." Now this is a mistake. We do not propose to do anything of the sort. What we propose is, that the Upper House shaU be appointed from the best men of the country by those holding the con fidence of the representatives of the people in this Chamber. It is proposed that the Govern ment of the day, which only lives by the ap proval of this Chamber, shall make the ap- pointmente, and be responsible to the people for the selections they shall make. (Hear, hear.) Not a single appointment could be made, with regard to which the Govemment would not be open to censure, and which the 13 representatives of the people, in this House, would not have an opportunity of condemning. For myself, I have maintained the appointed principle, as in opposition to the elective, ever since I came into public life, and have never hesitated, when before tbe people, to state my opinions in the broadest manner ; and yet not in a single instance have I ever found a con stituency in Upper Canada, or a public meet ing declaring its disapproval of appointment by the Crown and its desire for election by the people at large. When the change was made in 1855 there was not a single petition from the people asking for it — it was in a manner forced on the Legislature. The real reason for the change was, that before Responsible Government was introduced into this country, while the old oligarchical system existed, the Upper House continuously and systemati cally was at war with the popular branch, and threw out every measure of a liberal ten dency. The result was, that in the famous ninety-two resolutior s the introduction of the elective principle into the Upper House was declared to be indispensable. So long as Mr. Robert Baldwin remained in public life, the thing could not be done ; but when he left, the deed was consummated. But it is said, that if the members are to be appointed for lifo, the number should be unlimited — that, in the event of a dead lock arising be tween that chamber and this, there should be power to overcome the difficulty by the ap pointment of more members. Well, under the British system, iu the case of a legislative union, that might be a legitimate provision. But honorable gentlemen must see that the limitation of the numbers in the Upper House lies at the base of the whole compact on which this scheme rests. (Hear, hear.) It is perfectly clear, as was contended by those who represented Lower Canada in the Con ference, that if the number of the Legis lative Councillors was made capable of in crease, you would thereby sweep away the whole protection they had from the Upper Chamber. But it has been said that, though you may not give the power to the Executive to increase the numbers of the Upper House, in the event of a dead4ock, you might limit the term for which the members are appointed. I was myself in favor of that proposition. I thought it would be well to provide for a more frequent change in the composition of the Upper House, and lessen the danger of the chamber being largely composed of gentlemen whose advanced years might forbid the punc tual and vigorous discharge of their public 90 duties. Still, the objection made to this was very strong. It was said : " Suppose you appoint them for nine years, what will be the effect ? For the last three or four years of their term they would be anticipating its expiry, and anxiously looking to the AJoiiiiis- tration of the day lor re-appointment ; aid tlie consequence would be that a third of the mem bers would be under tho influence of the Ex ecutive." The desire was to render tbe Upper House a thoroughly independent body — one that would be in the best position to canvass dispassionately the measures ofthis House, and stand up for the public interests in opposition to h.asty or partisan legislation. It was con tended that there is no fear of a dead-look. We were reminded how tbe system of appoint ing ibr life had worked in past years, since Responsible Government was introduced ; we were told that the complaint was not theu, that the Upper Chamber had been too obstruc tive a body — not that it had sought to restrain the popular will, but that it had too faith fully reflected the popular will. Undoubtedly that was the complaint formerly pressed upon us — (hear, hear; — and I readily admit that if ever there was a body to whom we could safely entrust the power whioh by this mea sure we propose to confer on the members of the Upper Chamber, it is the body of gentlemen who at this moment compose the Legislative Council of Canada. The forty-eight Councillors fbr Canada are to be chosen from the present chamber. There are now thirty-four mernbers from the one section, and thirty-five from the other. I believe that of the sixty-nine, some will not desire to make their appearance here again, others, unhappily, from years and infirmity, may not have strength to do so ; and there may be others ivho will not desire to qualify under the Statute. It is quite clear that when twenty-four are selected for Upper Canada and twenty-four for Lower Canada, very few indeed of the present House will be excluded from the Federal Chamber ; and I confess I am not without hope tbat there may be some way yet found of providing for all who de,sire it, an honorable position in the Legislature of tlie country. (^Hear, hear.) And, after all, is it not an imaginary fear — that of a dead-lock ? Is it at all prob.ible that any body of gentlemen who may compose the Upper House, app ranted as they will be for life, acting as they will do on personal and not party responsibility, possessing as they must, a djep stake iu the welfare of the country, and desirous as they must be of holding the esteem of their feUow-subjects— would take so unreasonable a course as to imperil the whole political fabric ? The British House of Peers itself does not venture, d Voutranoe, to resist the popular wUl, and can it be anticipated that our Upper Chamber would set itself rashly against the popular will? If any fear is to be entertained in the mat ter, is it not rather that the Councillors will be fouud too thoroughly in harmony with the popular feeling of tbo day ? And we have tbis satisfaction at any rate, tbat, so far as its first formation is concerned — so far as the pre sent question is concerned — we shall have a body of gentlemen in whom every confidence may be placed. (Hear, hear.) But it is ob jected that in the constitution of the Upper House, so far as Lower Canada is concerned, the existing electoral divisions are to be main tained, while, as regards Upper Canada, they are to be abolished — ^that the members from Lower Canada are to sit as representing the divisions in whioh they reside or have their property qualification ; while in Upper Ca nada there is no such arrangement. Un doubtedly this is the fact ; it has been so arranged to suit the peculiar position of this section of the province. Our Lower Canada friends felt that they had French Canadian interests and British interests to be protected, and they conceived that the existing system of electoral divisions would give protection to these separate interests. We, in Upper Ca nada, ou the other hand, were quite content that they should settle that among them selves, and maintain their existing divisions if they chose. But, so far as we in the west were concerned, we had no such separate in terests to protect — we had no diversities of origin or language to reconcile — and we felt that the true interest of Upper Canada was that her very best men should be sent to the Legislative Council, wherever they might happen to reside or wherever their property was located. (Hear, hear.) If there is one evil in the American system which in my mind stands out as preeminently its greatest defect, except universal suffrage, it is that under that Constitution the representatives of the people must reside in the constituencies for which they sit. (Hear, hear.) The result is that a public man, — no matter what his talent, or what his position — -no matter how necessary it may be for the interest of the country that he should be in public life, unless Jie happens to belong to the political party popular for the time being in the constituency where he resides, cannot possibly find a seat 91 in Congress. And over and over again have we seen the very best men of the Republic, the most illustrious names recorded in ite political annals, driven out of the legislature of their country, simply because the majority in the electoral division in which they lived was of a different political party from tbem. I do think the British' system infinitely better than that, securing as it does that public men may be trained to public Ufe, with the assured conviction that if they prove themselves wor thy of public confidence, and gain a position in the country, constituencies will always be found to avaU themselves of their services, what^ ever be the political party to which they may adhere. You may make politicians by the other, but assuredly this is the way that states men are produced. But it is further objected that the property qualification of the members of the Upper House from Prince Edward Is land and Newfoundland may be either real or personal estate, while in the others it is to be real estate alone. This is correct ; but I fancy it matters little to us upon what species of property our friends in Prince Edward Island or in Newfoundland base their qualification. Here in Canada real estate is abundant ; every one can obtain it ; and admittedly by all it is the best qualification, if it be advisable to have any property qualification at all. But in Newfoundland it would be exceedingly in convenient to enforce such a rule. The pub lic lands there are not even surveyed to any considerable extent; the "people are almost entirely engaged in fishing and commercial pursuite, and to require a real estate qualifi cation would be practically to exclude some of its best public men from the Legislative CouncU. Then in Prince Edward Island a large portion of the island is held in exten sive tracts by absentee proprietors and leased to the settlers. A feud of long standing has been the result, and there would be some difficulty in finding landed proprietors who would be acceptable to the people as mem bers of the Upper House. This also must be remembered, that it wiU be a very diff erent thing for a member from Newfound land or Prince Edward Island to attend the Legislature at Ottawa from what it is for one of ourselves to go there. He must give up not only his time, but the comfort and conve nience of being near home — and it is desirable to throw no unnecessary obstacle in the way of our getting the very best men from these prorinces. (Hear.) But it is further ob jected that these resolutions do not define how the legislative councillors are tq ba chosen at first. I apprehend, however, there is no doubt whatever as regards that. Clause 14 says : "the first selection ofthe members to constitute the Federal Legislative Council shall be made from the members of the now existing legis lative councils, by the Crown, at the recom mendation of the General Executive Govern ment, upon the nomination of the respective local governments." The clear meaning of this clause simply is, that the present gov emments of the several provinces are to choose out of the existing bodies — so far as they can find gentlemen willing and qualified to serve — the members who shall at starting compose the Federal Legislative Council; that they are to present the names so selected to the Executive Council of British America when constituted — and on the advice of that body the CounciUors will be appointed by thi- Crown. (Hear.) And such has been the spirit shown from first to last in carrying out the compact of July last by all tbe parties to it, that I for one have no apprehension what ever that full justice will not be done to the party which may be a minority in the Govem ment, but is certainly not in a minority either in the country or in this House. I speak not only of Upper Canada but of Lower Canada as well — Hon. Mr. DORION— Ha! ha! Hon. Mr. BROWN— My honorable friend laughs, but I assure him, and he will not say I do so for the purpose of deceiving him, that having been prese.it in Conference and in Council, having heard all the discussions and well ascertained the feelings of all associated with me, I have not a shadow of a doubt on ray mind that full justice will be done in the selection of the first Federal CounciUors, not only to those who may have been in the habit of acting with me, but also to those who have acted with my honorable friend the member for Hochelaga. (Hear, hear.) Now. Mr. Speaker, I believe I have answered every objection tha^ has come from any quarter against the proposed constitution of the Fed eral Legislature. I am persuaded there is not one well-founded objection that can ba urged against it. It is just to all parties; it remedies the gross injustice of the existing system ; and I am convinced it will not only work easily and safely, but be entirely satis factory to tbe great mass of our people. But I go further ; I say that were all the objec tions urged against tbis scheme sound and cogent, they sink into utter insignificance in vievr ol' all the miseries this scheme wiU re- liev<^ us from, — in view of all tbe difficulties 94 amount of annual interest from the federal chest, and that money is to be applied to the reduction of the sixty-three thousand extra grant. (Hear, hear.) And tbis, moreover, is not to be forgotten as regards New Bruns wick, that she brings into the union exten sive railways now in profitable operation, the revenues from which are to go into the federal chest. (Hear.) A similar arrangement was found necessary as regards the Island of Nevribundland — it, too, being a vast country with a sparse population. It was found ab solutely essential that an additional grant beyond eighty cents per head should be made to enable her Local Government to be properly carried on. But, in consideration of this extra allowance, Newfoundland is to cede to the Federal Government her Crown lands and minerals — and assuredly, if the reports of geo logists are well founded, this arrangement wiU be as advantageous to us as it will be to the inhabitants of Newfoundland. I am per suaded then, Mr. Speaker, that the House wUl feel with me that we in Canada have very little to complain of in regard to the subsidies for local government. But if a doubt yet remains on the mind of any honorable member, let him examine the Trade Returns of the several provinces, and he wUl see that, from the large quantity of dutiable goods consumed in the Maritime Provinces, they have received no undue advantage under the arrangement. Let this too ever be kept in mind that the $2,630,000 to be distributed to the local gov- ernmente from the federal chest is to be in full and final extinguishment of all claims hereafter for local purposes ; and that if this from any cause does not suffice, the local governments must supply all deficiencies from direct tax on their own localities. (Hear, hear.) And let honorable members from Upper Canada who carp at-this annual sub sidy, remember for a moment what we pay now, and they wiU cease their grumbling. Of all the money raised by the General Gov ernment fbr local purposes in Canada, the tax-payers of Upper Canada now pay more than three-fourths ; but far from getting back in proportion to what they contribute, or even in proportion to their population, they do not get one-halt of the money spent for loc.il purposes. But how different wiU it be under Federation ! Nine hundred thousand people will come into the union, who will contribute to the revenue quite as much, man for man, as the Upper Canadians, and in the distribu tion of the local subsidy we wiU receive our share on the basis of population. A very different arrangement from that we now endure. (Hear, hear.) I confess to you, sir, that one of the strongest arguments in my mind for Confederation is the economical ideas of the people ofthese Maritime Provinces, and the con viction that the influence of their public men in our legislative halls will be most salutary in all financial matters A more economical people it would be difficult to find ; their prime min isters and their chief justices get but £600 a year, Halifax currency, and the rest of their civil list is in much the same proportion. (Hear, hear.) But, Mr. Speaker, there is another great evil in our existing system that this scheme remedies ; it secures to the people of each province full control over the adminis tration of their own internal affairs. We in Upper Canada have complained that the minority of our representatives, the party de feated at the polls of Upper Canada, have been, year after year, kept in office by Lower Canada votes, and that all the local patron age of our section has been dispensed by those who did not possess the confidence of the people. Well, sir, this scheme remedies tbat. The local patronage wiU be under local control, and the wishes of the majority in each section will be carried out in all local matters. (Hear, hear.) We have complained that the land system was not according to the views of our westem people ; that free lands for actual settlers was the right policy for us — that the price of a piece of land squeezed out of an immigrant was no consideration in comparison with the settlement among us of a hardy and industrious family ; and that the colonization road system was far from satisfactory. Well, sir, this scheme remedies that. Each province is to have control of its own crown lands, crown timber and crown minerals, — and will be free to take such steps for developing them as each deems best. — (Hear, hear.) We have complained that local works of various kinds — roads, bridges and landing piers, court houses, gaols and other structures — have been erected in an inequitable and improvident manner. Well, sir, this scheme remedies that ; aU local works are to be constructed by the localities and defrayed from local funds. And so on through the whole extensive details of internal local administra tion will this reform extend. The people of Upper Canada will have the entire control of their local matters, and will no longer have to betake themselves to Quebec for leave to open a road, to select a county town, or appoint a coroner. But I am told that to this general principle of placing aU local matters under 95 local control, an exception has been made in regard to the common schools. (Hear, hear. ) The clause complained of is as foUows : — 6. Education; saving the i-ighta and privileges which the Protestant or Catholic minority in both Canadas may possess as to their Denomi national Schools at the time when the Union goes into operation. Now, I need hardly remind the House that I have always opposed and continue to oppose the system of sectarian education, so far as the public chest is concerned. I have never had any hesitation on that point. I have never been able to see why all the people of the prorince, to whatever sect tbey may belong, should not send their children to the same common schools to receive the ordinary branches of instruction. I regard the parent and the pastor as. the best religious instruc tors — and so long as the religious faith of the children is uninterfered with, and ample op- tunity afforded to the clergy to give reUgious instruction to the children of their flocks, I cannot conceive any sound objection to mixed schools. But while in the Conference and elsewhere I have always maintained this view, and always given my vote against sectarian public schools, I am bound to admit, as I have always admitted, that the sectarian system, carried to the limited extent it has yet been in Upper Canada, and confined as it chiefly is to cities and towns, has not been a very great practical injury. The real cause of alarm was that the admission of the sectarian principle was there, and that at any moment it might be extended to such a degree as to spUt up our school system altogether. There are but a hundred separate schools in Upper Canada, out of some four thousand, and aU Roman Catholic. But if the Roman Catholics are entitled to separate schools and to go on extending their operations, so are the members of the Church of England, the Presbyterians, the Methodists, and aU other sects. No can did Roman Catholic wiU deny this for a moment ; and there lay the great danger to our educational fabric, that the separate system might gradually extend itself until the whole country was studded vrith nurseries of sectarianism, most hurtful to the best interests of the prorince, and entailing an enormous expense to sustain the hosts of teachers that so prodigal a system of public instruction must, inevitably entaU. Now it is known to every honorable member of this House that an Act was passed in 1863, as a final settlement of this sectarian contro versy. I was not in Quebec at the time, but if I had been here I would have voted agains that bill, because it extended the facilities for establishing separate schools. It had, how ever, this good feature, that it was accepted by the Roman Catholic authorities, and car ried through Parliament as a final compromise of the question in Upper Canada. When, therefore, it was proposed that a provision should be inserted in the Confederaticm scheme to bind that compact of 1863 and declare it a final settlement, so that we should not be com pelled, as we have been since 1849, to stand constantly to our arms, awaiting fresh attacks upon our commou school system, the propo sition seemed to me one that was not rashly to be rejected. (Hear, hear.) I admit that, from my point of view, this is a blot on the scheme before tbe House , it is, confessedly, one of the concessions from our side that had to be m.ade to secure this great measure of reform. But assuredly, I, for one, have not the slightest hesitation in accepting it as a necessary condi tion of the scheme of union, and doubly accept able must it be in tbe eyes of honorable gentle men opposite, who were the authors of the bill of 1863. (Cheers.) But it was urged that though this arrangement might perhaps be fair as regards Upper Canada, it was not so as re gards Lower Canada, for there were matters of which the British population have long com plained, and some amendments to the existing School Act were required to secure them equal justice. Well, when this point was raised, gentlemen of all parties in Lower Canada at once expressed themselves prepared to treat it in a frank and conciliatory manner, with a riew to removing any injustice that might be shown to exist ; and on this understanding the educational clause was adopted by the Con ference Mr.'t. C. WALLBRIDGE — That de stroys the power of the local legislatures to legislate upon the subject. Hon. Mr. BROWN— I would like to know how|much "power" the honorable gentleman bas now to legislate upon it ? Let him introduce a bill to-day to annul the compact of 1863 and repeal all the sectarian school acts of Upper Canada, and how many votes would he get for it ? Would twenty members vote for it out of the one hundred and thirty who compose this House ? If the honorable gentleman had been struggling for fifteen years, as I have been, to save the school system of Upper Can ada from further extension of the sectarian element, he would have found precious little diminution of power over it in this very mod erate compromise. And what says the hon' 96 orable gentleman to leaving the British popu lation of Lower Canada in the unrestricted power ofthe Local Legislature ? The Common Schools of Lower Canada are not as in Upper Canada — they are almost entirely non-sectarian Roman Catholic Schools. Does the honorable gentleman, then, desire to compel the Protes tants of Lower Canada to avail themselves of Roman Catholic institutions, or leave their children without instruction ? (Hear hear, and cheers.) But, Mr. Speaker, I am further in favor of this scheme because it will bring to an end the sectional discord between Upper and Lower Canada. It sweeps away the boundary line between the provinces so far as regards matters common to the whole people — it places all on an equal level — and the members of the Federal Legislature will meet at last as citizens of a common oountry. The questions that used to excite the most hostile feelings among us have been taken away from the General Legislature, and placed under the control of the local bodies. No man need hereafter be debarred from success in public life because his views, however popular in his own section, are unpopular in the other, — for he will not have to deal with sectional ques tions ; and the temptation to the Government of the day to make capital out of local preju dices wiU be greatly lessened, if not altogether at an end. What has rendered prominent public men in one section utterly unpopular in the other in past years? Has it been our views on trade and commerce — immigration — land settlement — the canal system — the tariff, — or any other of the great questions of national interest ? No, sir, it was from our views as to the applying of public money to local purposes— the allotment of public lands to local purposes, — the building of local roads, bridges, and landing-piers witb public funds — the chartering of ecclesiastical insti tutions — the granting of public money for sectarian purposes — the interference with our school system — and similar matters, that the hot feuds between Upper and Lower Canada have chiefly arisen, and caused our public men, the more faithful they were to the opinions and wishes of one section, to be tbe more unpopular in the other. A most happy day will it be fbr Canada when this bill goes into effect, and all these subjects of discord are swept from the discussion of our Leoislature. (Hear.) But, Mr. Speaker, I am further in favor of this scheme as a remedial measure, because it brings to an end the doubt that has so long hung over our position, and gives a sta bUity to our future in the eyes of the world that could not otherwise have been attended. (Ke- peated marks of approval, but ironical cheers from Hon. Mr. Holton.) The hon. member for Chateauguay cries " hear, hear " in a very credulous tone ; but the hon. member should be one of the very last to express doubts on this point. Has he not, for many years, ad mitted the absolute necessity of constitutional changes, ere peace and prosperity could be es tablished in our land ? Has he not taken part in the contests to obtain those changes ? Has he not experienced the harsh and hostile feel ings that have pervad-^d this House and the whole country ? And did he not sign the re port of my committee last session, declaring a Federal union to be the true solution of our troubles, political and constitutional ? And i does the honorable member think these matters I were not well known in the United States, ' and that the hope of our annexation to thej republic was not kept alive by them from year \ to year ? Does he fancy that our discorda \ and discontent were not well known in Great Britain, and that the capitaUst and the emi grant were not influenced by our distractions? Does he fancy that people abroad, as well as at home, did not perfectly understand that Upper Canada wotdd not much longer submit to the injustice from wbich she suffered — and that until the future relations of the two sec tions were adjusted, no one could predict safely what our future position might be ? But when the measure before us has been adopted — -when justice has been done to both sections — when all are placed on an equal footing — when the sectional matters that rent us have been handed over to sectional control — when sec tional expenditure shall be placed on sectional shoulders — wiU not a sense of security and stability be inspired, which we never before enjoyed and never could have enjoyed under existing circumstances ? (Cheers.) Viewed then, Mr. Speaker, from a merely Canadian stand-point — riewed solely as a remedial mea sure — I fearlessly assert that the scheme m your hands is a just and satisfactory remedy for the evils and injustice that have so long distracted the province — (cheers) — and so strongly do I feel this, that were every word of objection urged against our union with the Maritime Provinces just and true to the very letter, I would not hesitate to adopt the union as the price of a measure of constitutional reform in Canada, so just and so complete as now pro posed. (Cheers.) But, Mr. Speaker, sofarfrom the objections urged against union with the Maritime Provinces being sound, so far from union with them being a drawback to this 97 measure, I regard it as the crowning advan tage of the whole scheme. (Continued cheer ing.) Sir, I make no pretension to having been in past years an advocate of the imme diate union of the British American Colon ies. I always felt and always said that uo statesman could doubt that such was the best and almost the certain future destiny of these colonies ; but I doubted greatly whether the right time for the movement had yet arrived. I knew Uttle of the Maritime Provinces or the feelings of their people ; the negotiations for a union were Ukely to be difficult and long protracted, and I was unwiUing to accept the hope of a measure so remote and so uncertain in lieu of the practical remedy for practical erils in Canada which we were earnestly seeking to obtain, and which our own Legislature had the power immediately to grant. But of late, sir, aU this has been changed. The circum stances are entirely altered. A revolution has occurred in Great Britain on the subject of colonial relations to the parent state — the Govemment of the United States has become a great warlike power — our commercial rela tions with the repubUc are seriously threatened — and every man in British America has now placed before him for solution the practical question, what shaU be done in riew of the changed relations on which we are about to enter ? ShaU we continue to struggle along as isolated communities, or shall we unite cordiaUy together to extend our commerce, to develope the resources of our country and to defend our soil ? But more than this — many of us have learned, since we last met here, far more of the Maritime Provinces than we ever did before. We have risited the Maritime Provinces — we have seen the country — we have met the people and marked their inteUi gence and their industry and their frugality — we have investigated their pubUc affairs and found them satisfactory — ^we have discussed terms of union with their statesmen and found thatno insuperable obstacle to union exists, and no necessity for long delay. We come to the consideration of the question to-day in a totaUy different position from what we ever did before — and if the House wUl grant me ite indulgence, I think I can present un answerable arguments to show that this union of aU British America should be heartily and promptly accepted by all the provinces. (Cheers.) Mr. Speaker, I am in favor of a union of the British American Colonies, first, because it will raise us from the attitude of a number of inconsiderable colonies into a great aud powerful people. (Cheers.) The united 14 population of Canada, Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, Newfoundland and Prince Edward Island, is at this moment very close on four millions of souls. Now, there are in Europe forty-eight Sovereign States, and out of that numl&er there are only eleven having a greater population than these colonies united — (hear, hear) — while three of the eleven are so little ahead of us, that before the next census is taken, in 1871, we shall stand equal in popu lation to the ninth Sovereign State of Europe. (Hear.) Then, sir, the public revenues of the united provinces for 1864 were $13,260,- 000, and their expenditures summed up to $12,- 507,000. And, large as these sums may appear, it is satisfactory to know that the tax ation of British America — were there no re duction from present burdens, whioh I am sure there will be — will be one-third less per head than the taxation of England or France. There are only five or six countries in Europe in which the taxation is less than ours will be — and these, moreover, are either petty principalities or states which do not enjoy a very high degree of civilization. (Hear.) Then, sir, as regards the Importe and Exports of the united provinces, they summed up in 1863, to the following dimen sions : — Imports $70,600,963 Exports 66,846,604 Total trade $137,447,567 Now, sir, I should like honorable gentlemen to notice this fact, tbat in 1793 — ^long after the United States had achieved their inde pendence and established a settled Govern ment — their exports and imports did not amount to one-third what ours do at this moment. (Cheers.) There are few states in Europe, and those with a vastly greater popula tion than ours, that can boast of anything like the extent of foreign cotiimerce that now passes through our hands. (Hear.) Then, sir, as to our agricultural resources, I find that 45,638,854 acres have passed from the gov ernments of these colonies into private hands, of which only 13,128,229 are yet tilled, and 32,510,625 acres have still to be brought into cultivation. The whole of these forty-five mil lions are picked lands — most of them selectod by the early settlers in this country ; and il our annual agricultural products are so great now, what wiU they be wben the thirty-two millions yet to pass under the plough have been brought into cultivation ? — and what will they not he when tbe vast tracts stiU held by Government are peopled with hardy settlers ? 98 (Hear.) According to the census of 1861, the value of the agricultural productions of the previous year in the united provinces of British America was $120,000,000; and if we add to that the garden products, and the improvements made on new lands by the agricultural laborers of the prorinces, it will be found tbat the actual product of the industry of our farmers in that year was $150,000,000. (Hear, hear.) The assessed value of our farms — which is always greatly less than the real value — -was $550,- 000,000 in the year 1861. (Hear.) Then, sir, in regard to the minerals of the united provinces — what vast fields of profitable indus try will we have in the great ooal beds of Nova Scotia — in the iron deposits found all over the provinces — in the exhaustless copper regions of Lakes Huron and Superior and the Eastern Townships of Lower Canada — and in the gold mines of tbe Chaudiere and Nova Scotia. And if the mind stretches from the western bounds of civilization through those great north-western regions, which we hope ere long will be ours, to tbe eastern slope of the Rocky Blountains, wbat vast sources of wealth to tbe fur trader, the miner, the gold hunter and the agriculturist, lie there ready to be developed. (Hear, hear.) Nor can another source of wealth be altogether for gotten. The President of the United States is said recently to have declared that the produce of the petroleum wells of the United States will in half a dozen years pay off the whole national debt of tbe repubUc. Well, sir, we too have " struck oil," and every day brings us intelligence of fresh discoveries — (hear, hear, and laughter) — and if the enor mous debt of our neighbors may possibly be met by the oily stream, may we not hope that some material addition to our annual industrial revenue may flow from our petro leum regions? (Hear, hear.) Another vast branch of British American industry is the tim ber and lumber trade. In tbe year 1862, our saw-mUls turned out not less than 772,000 - 000 feet of manufactured lumber,and our whole timber exports summed up to the value of fifteen miUions of doUars. (Hear, hear.) The manufacturing interests of the provinces, too, are fast rising into importance; agricultural implement works, woollen factories and cotton mUls, tanneries and shoe factories, iron works and rolUng mUls, flax works and paper miUs, and many other extensive and profitable me chanical estabUshments are springing up among us, and rapidly extending their operations. (Hear, hear.) And to add to aU, we have already 2,500 miles of railway, 4,000 mUes of electric telegraph, and the noblest canal system in the world, but whicb, I hope, wiU soon be infinitely improved. (Cheers.) These, Mr. Speaker, are some examples of the industrial spectacle British America will present after the union has been accomplished ; and I ask any member of this House to say whether we will not, when thus united, occupy a position in the eyes of the worid, and command a de gree of respect and influence that we never can enjoy as separate provinces ? (Hear,hear.) Must it not affect the decision of many an intending emigrant, when he is told not of the fishing and mining pursuits of Nova Scotia, or of the ship-building of New Bruns wick, or of the timber trade of Lower Canada, or of the agriculture of Upper Canada, but when he is shown all these in one riew, as the collective industrial pursuits of British America? (Hear, hear.) I am persuaded that this union will inspire new confidence in our StabUity, and exercise the most beneficial influence on all our affairs. I believe it wiU raise the value of our public securities, that it will draw capital to our shores, and secure the prosecution of all legitimate enterprises ; and what I saw, while in England, a few weeks ago, would alone have convinced me of this. Wherever you went you encountered the most marked evidence ofthe gratification with which the Confederation scheme was received by aU classes of the people, and the deep interest taken in ite success. Let me state one fact in illustration. For some time previous to No vember last our securities had gone very low down in the market, in consequence, as my honorable friend the Finance Minister ex plained the other night, of the war raging on our borders, the uncertainty which hung over the future of this prorince, and the fear that we m.ight be involved in trouble with our neighbors. Our five per cent, debentures went down in the market so low as 71, but they recovered from 71 to 75, I think, upon the day the resolutions for Confederation, which we are now discussing, reached London. Well, sir, the resolutions were pubhshed m the London papers, with eulogistic editorial ar ticles, and the immediate effect of the scheme upon the public mind was such that our five per cente. rose from 75 to 92. (Hear, hear.) Hon. Mr. HOLTON— What has put them down since ? Hon. Mr. BROWN— I will presently teU the honorable gentlaman what has put them down sinee. But I say that, if anything eeuld show more elearlj than anothar the 99 effect this union is to have on our position over the world, it is a fact like this, that our secu rities went up 17 per cent, in consequence of the publication of the details of our scheme. (Hear, hear.) The honorable member for Chateauguay asks, "What put them down again ?" I will tell him. They remained at 91 or 92 until the news came that a raid had been made from Canada into the United States, that the raiders had been arrested and brought before a Canadian Court, and that upon technical legal grounds, not only had they been set free, but the money of which they had robbed the banks had been handed over to the robbers. The effect of this news, coupled with General Dix's order, was to drive down, our securities 11 per cent, almost in one day. (Hear, hear.) But, as my hon orable friend the Finance Minister suggests, this is but an additional proof of the accuracy of the argument I have been sustaining — for this would not have happened, at all events to the same extent, if aU the provinces had been united and prepared, as we are now proposing, not only for purposes of commerce but for pur poses of defence. (Hear, hear.) But secondly, Mr. Speaker, I go heartily for the union, because it will throw down the barriers of trade and give us the control of a market of four miUions of people. (Hear, hear.) What one thing has contributed so much to the won drous material progress of the United States as the free passage of their products from one State to another ? What has tended so much to the rapid advance of all branches of their industry, as the vast extent of their home market, creating an unlimited demand for all the commodities of daily use, and stimulating the energy and ingenuity of producers ? Sir, I confess to you that in my mind this one riew of the union — the addition of nearly a million of people to our home consumers — sweeps aside all the petty objections that are averred against the scheme. What, in com parison with this great gain to our farmers and manufacturers, are even the fallacious money objections which the imaginations of honorable gentlemen opposite have summoned up ? All over the world we find nations eagerly longing to extend their domains, spending large sums and waging protracted wars to possess them selves of more territory, untilled and uninhabit ed. (Hear, hear.) Other countries offer large inducemente to foreigners to emigrate to their shores — ^free passages, free lands, and free food and implemente to start them in the world. We, ourselves, support costly estaV liihmente to attract inuuigraats to ou; (faun- try, and are satisfied when our annual outlay brings us fifteen or twenty thousand souls. But here, sir, is a proposal which is to add, in one day, near a million of souls to our popula tion — to add valuable territories to our domain, and secure to us all the advantages of a large and profitable commerce, now existing. And because some of us would have liked certain of the little details otherwise arranged, we are to hesitate in accepting this alliance ! (IIear,hear.) Have honorable gentlemen forgotten that the United States gladly paid twenty millions in hard cash to have Louisiana incorporated in the Republic ? But what was Louisiana then to the Americans, in comparison with what the Maritime Provinces are at this moment to Canada? I put it to honorable gentlemen opposite — if the United States were now to offer us the State of Maine, what possible sum could be named within the compass of our ability that we would not be prepared to pay for that addition to our country ? (Hear, hear.) If we were offered Michigan, Iowa or Minnesota, I would like to know what sum, within the compass of Canada, we would not be prepared to pay ? These are portions of a foreign country, but here is a people owning the same allegiance as ourselves, loring the same old sod, enjoying the same laws and institutions, actuated by the same impulses and social customs, — and yet wben it is pro posed that they shall unite with us for pur poses of commerce, for the defence of our common country, and to develope the vast natural resources of our united domains, we hesitate to adopt it I If a Canadian goes now to Nova Scotia or New Brunswick, or if a citizen of these provinces comes here, it is like going to a foreign country. The customs officer meets you at the frontier, arrests your progress, and leries his im posts on your effects. But the proposal now before us is to throw down all barriers between the provinces — to make a citizen of one, citizen of the whole ; the proposal is, that our farmers and manufacturers and mechanics shall carry their wares unquestioned into every village of the Maritime Provinces ; and that they shaU with equal freedom bring their fish, and their coal, and their West India produce to our three millions of inhabitants. The proposal is, that the law courte, and the schools, and the professional and in dustrial walks of life, throughout all the provinces, shall be thrown equally open to us aU. (Hear, be r.) B^^, thirdly, Mr. Speaker, I am in favor of a "^pion of the provinces baoauaa — *ad I oaU tha attention pf honorabla 100 gentlemen opposite to it — ^because it wUl make us the third maritime state of the world. (Hear, hear.) When this union is accom plished, but two countries in the world will be superior in maritime influence to British America — and those are Great Britain and the United States. (Hear, hear.) In 1863, no fewer than 628 vessels were built in British America, of whieh the aggregate tonnage was not less than 230,312 tons. (Hear, hear.) There were buUt— Vessels. Tons. In Canada 158 with . . .67,209 "Nova Scotia 207 " ...46,862 " New Brunswick 137 " . . .85,250 " Prince Edward Island 100 " ... 24,991 "Newfoundland 26 " ... 6,000 Total 628 230,312 Now, sir, in 1861 — the year preceding the outbreak of the civil war — all the vessels built in the United States, with their vast seaboard and thirty millions of people, were in the aggregate but 233,193 tons — only three thousand tons in excess of the British American Prorinces. (Hear, hear.) And I hesitate not to affirm that if the people of British America unite cordially together in utUizing the singular facilities we unitedly possess for the extension of the shipping and ship-buUding interests, many years will not elapse before we greatly surpass our neighbors in this lucrative branch of industry. (Cheers.) Hon. Mr. HOLTON— How much of the shipping built in that year do we own now ? Hon. Mr. BROWN— How much of what the Americans built in 1861 do they own now ? Why is my honorable friend so anxious to decry the industry of his country ? If we have not the ships it is because we sold them, and the money is in our pockets, and we are ready to buUd more. In 1863 we sold ships built by our mechanics to the large amount of $9,000,000 in gold. (Cheers.) But if my honorable friend from Chateauguay wiU permit me, I am going on to indoctrinate him upon the point of the ownership of vessels — Hon. Mr. HOLTON— Don't! Hon. Mr. BROWN— Ah ! my honoroble friend does not require to be instructed ; well, wiU he tell us how many tons of shipping are now owned by British America ? Hon. Mr. HOLTON— I am aware that most of the vessels my honorable friend speaks of, and the building of whieh he cites as a proof that we wiU be a great maritime power, were sold abroad. BuUding sbips is a good thing, and seUing them is a _ better, but that does not prove us to be a great maritime power. Hon. Mr. BROWN— My honorable friend cannot eat his cake and have it too. If we got $9,000,000 for a portion of tbe ships we built in 1863, it is clear we cannot own them also. It did not require a man of great wis dom to flnd out that. (Laughter.) But I was going on to show the amount of shipping that was owned in these prorinces. I hold in my hand a statement of the vessels owned and registered in British America, made up to the latest dates, and I find that the provinces unitedly own not fewer than 8,530 vessels, with an aggregate tonnage of not less than 932,246 tons. Hon. Mr. HOLTON— Sea-going ? Hon. Mr. BROWN — Sea-going and in land. Hon. Mr. HOLTON— (ironically)— Hear, hear ! Hon. Mr. BROWN — Why is my honor able friend from Chateauguay so anxious to depreciate ? Is it then so deplorable a thing to own inland vessels ? None knows better than my honorable friend when to buy and when to sell — and yet, I greatly mistake if there was not a time when my honorable friend thought it not so bad a thing to be the owner of ships and steamers on our inland seas. fHear, hear, and laughter.) Am I vn-ong in beliering that my honorable friend laid the foundation of his well-merited fortune in the carrying trade of the lakes ? — and is it for him, from momentary partisanship, to depreciate such an important branch of national industry ? What matters where the ship floats, if she is a good and a sound ship ? — and the inland tonnage includes so many steamers, that in value it will compare favorably with that of the sea-going. On the Slst December, — Vessels. Tons. 1864, Canada owned 2,311 .. 287,187 1863, Nova Scotia 3,539 .. 309,554 1863, New Brunswick 891 .. 211,680 1863, Prince Edward Island . . 360 .. 34,222 1863, Newfoundland 1,429 .. 89,603 Total 8,530 932,246 Now, sir, it is quite true that the United States have a much larger commercial navy than this, and Great Britain a vastly larger one — but it is equally true that the country next to them in importance is France, and that notwithstanding her thirty-flve mUUons of people, large foreign trade, and extensive sea-coast, she owns but 60,000 tons of ship- 101 ping more than British America. (Hear, hear.) In 1860, the aggregate commercial navy of France was but 996,124 tons. I say then, that even as ship-owners, the British American Confederacy will occupy from the first, a proud place among the Maritime States of the world — and that when all her ships hoist a distinctive flag alongside the Cross of Red, there will be few seas in which it will not be unfurled. And let me bere mention a fact which came under my notice while re cently in the Lower Prorinces — a fact of great importance, and from which, I think, we, who are more inland, may well profit. I learned that, as in the British Isles, a system of joint- steck ship-building has been spreading over many parts of the Maritime Provinces. Ships are built and owned in small shares — say in sixteenth, thirty-second,^or sixty-fourth parts, and all classes of the people are taking small ventures in the trade. Most of the ships so built are sold, but a portion, and an increasing portion, every year, are saUed, and sailed with profit, by the original joint-stock builders. (^Hear, hear.) I was delighted to be told that some of those clipper vessels which wj often hear of as making wonderful trips from China and India and Australia to British porte, are vessels built and owned in New Brunswick, under this joint-stock system. (Hear, hear.) So much for the building and ownership of ships. Now let me show you what will be the strength of the united pro vinces in seafaring men. By the census of 1861, it appears tbat the numbers of sailors and fishermen were then — In Canada 5,958 In Nova Scotia, 19,637 In New Brunswick 2,765 In Prince Edward Island 2,318 In Newfoundland 38,578 Total 69,256 Whether regarded merely as a lucrative branch of industry, or as affecting our mari time position before the world, or as a bulwark of defence in time of need, this one fact that British America will have a combined force of seventy thousand seamen, appears to me an immense argument in favor of the union. (Hear, hear.) And let us look at the pro ducts of the labor of a portion of these men — the fishermen. From the latest retums I have been able to meet with, I find the joint producte of our sea-coasts and inland lakes were, in the years named, estimated at the foUowing values: — Upner Canada, 1859 $ 380,000 Lower Canada, 1862 703,895 Nova Scotia, 1861 2,072,081 New Brunswick, 1861 518,530 Newfoundland, 1861 6,347,730 ' Total $10,022,236 (Hear, hear.) I was unable to find any estimate as regards Prince Edward Island, but fancy the amount there must be about $200,000. But, be this as it may, so valuable a fishing trade as this of the united provinces does not exist in any part of the world. And no doubt these estimates are far under the fact, as a large portion of the delicious food drawn by our people from the sea and inland waters could not possibly be included in the retums of the fishery inspectors. (Hear, hear.) And let us observe, for a moment, the important part played by this fishing industry in the foreign commerce of the provinces. The exports of products of the sea in the year 1863 were as foUows : — Prom Canada $ 789,91," " Nova Sootia 2,390,661 " New Brunswick (1862) 303,477 " Newfoundland 4,090,970 " Prince Edward Island 1 21,000 Total exports $7,696,021 Add to this, nine millions of doUars received in the same year fbr new ships, and we have $16,696,021 as one year's foreign exports of our ship-building and fishing interests. (He.w, hear.) With such facts before us as the re sult of only a partially-developed traffic, may we not fearlessly look forward to the future in the confident hope of still more gratifying re sults, when, by combined and energetic action, a new impetus has been given to these valua ble branches of industry ? But there remains a still more singular comparison to be made. The Minister of Finance referred to it last night — but he scarcely did justice to our position, because he excluded altogether tbe inland shipping. I refer to the statement of ships annuaUy entering and leaving our ports. Of course every one comprehends that a large amount of the tonnage entering and leaving ports on the upper lakes is repeated in the re turns over and over again. This is the case, for instance, with the ferry boats between the American and Canadian shores, that carry passengers and a small quantity of goods. It would be unfair to put down the tonnage of such boate every time they enter or leave a port, as foreign commerce. Still there is a 102 large amount of valuable shipping engaged in the inland trade, and a vast amount of freight is carried between the countries ; and the only just plan is to state separately that which is sea-going shipping and that which is inland. Acting on this plan, I find that iu 1863, the tonnage between Canada and foreign ports was as foUows : — Inwards. Outwards. Total. Canada 1,041,309 1,091,896 2,133,204 Nova Scotia 712,939 719,915 1,432,854 New Brunswick 659,258 727,727 1,386,985 P. E. Island, 1862 69,080 81,208 150,288 Newfoundland 156,578 148,610 305,188 2,639,164 2,769,355 5,408,619 Inland Navigation. Canada 3,538,701 3,368,432 6,907,133 Totaltons 6,177,865 6,137,787 12,315,652 Now, sir, the United States are in the same po sition as we are in respect to this inland traffic, and they include it in their returns as is done here. And what, sir, do you think is the differen'ce between their tonnage and ours ? Why ours is over twelve miUions and theirs is but sixteen miUions. There are not four millions of tons of difference between the two. (Hear, hear.) And let it be recol lected that the United States have had seventy years start of us. As regards France, the whole amount of shipping that entered and left the ports of that great country in one year was but 8,456,734 tons — four mUlions of tons less than that of the British American Provinces. May we not then, when this union is accomplished, fairly claim to be the third maritime state of the world ; and may we not even entertain the hope that, at some future day, a still higher position is not beyond our reach, when the days of puberty have been passed and the strength of manhood has been reached? I ask honorable gentlemen, in looking at these figures, to consider what the effect must be when they are set down thus collectively, side by side, in official commercial returns, in com parison with the commerce of all the great maritime states ? WiU it not strengthen our position abroad ? — will it not give us a degree of influence and importance to have it known that British America wields so large a share of the world's commerce ? — And if honorable gentlemen will still further consider the deep importance to Canada, in her inland position, of exercising her just influence in the control of so valuable a maritime interest, I think they will come to the conclusion that all the objec tions urged against this union are, in the bal- aaoe of ita advantages, utterly contfimptibla. (Cheers.) But, in the fourth place, Mr. Speaker, I go for a union of the prorinces, because it will give a new start to immigration into our country. It wUl bring us out anew prominently before the world — it wiU turn ear nest attention to our resources, and bring to our shores a stream of immigration greater and of a better class, than we ever had before. I was in England when the first public an nouncement of this scheme was made, and vritnessed, with pleasure, the marked impre^ sion it produced. You could not go abroad you could not enter into any company, in any class of society, where Canada or the British American Prorinces were mentioned, but you heard this union movement spoken of almost with enthusiasm. And I say it is deshable that this scheme should not be delayed, but be carried through promptly and rigorously. I hesitate not to say that it should be accom panied with a rigorous effort to give a new impetus to our industrial enterprises, to open up fresh lands for settlement, and to cheapen the transport of our produce to the searboard. With the consummation of this union, I trast we wUl have a new immigration and a new land settlement policy — ^that we will ascertain every lot of land we actually own, so that a printed list may be placed in the hands of every immigrant — that the petty price we have been heretofore exacting wUl no longer be exacted, but that to actual settlers, who come among us to hew out for themselves and their chil dren homes in the forest, no burthen or condi tion will be demanded, beyond resident occupa tion for a certain number of years, and a fixed amount of improvement on the land. — Hon. Mr. HOLTON— Unfortunately for your argument, the lands will be in the hands of the local governments. Hon. Mr. BROWN— So much the better. My honorable friend can manage his pubUe lands in Lower Canada as he likes, and we will manage ours. And, speaking for the western section, I am bound to say there are very few shrewd men in Upper Canada who do not feel that far more public benefit is to be gained from the industry of a hardy actual settler upon 100 acres of land given to hhn free, than the trumpery $150 that can be squeezed out of him as its price, the payment of which keeps bim in trouble perhaps for years, and retards the progress of the country. On this question of immigration turns, in my opinion, the whole future success of this groat scheme which we are now discussing. Why, sir, there is hardly a poUtical or financial or social proyem suggested by this union that lOS does not find its best solution in a large influx of immigration. The larger our '.population, the greater wUl be our productions, the more valuable our exporte, and the greater our abUity to develop the resources of our country. The greater the number of tax-payers, and the more densely they are settled, the more lightly wUl the burden of taxation fall upon us all. And in this question of immigration is found the only true solution of the problem of defence. FUl up our vacant lands, double our popula tion, and we wUl at once be in a position to meet promptly and effectuaUy any invader who may put his foot with hostUe intent upon our soU. (Hear, hear.) And this question of immigration naturally brings me to the great subject of the North-West territories. (Hear, hear.) The resolutions before us recognize the immediate necessity of those great territories being brought within the Confederation and opened up for settlement. But I am told that, while the Intercolonial Railroad has been made an absolute condition of the compact, the opening up of the Great West and the enlargmement of our canals have been left in doubt. Now, sir, nothing can be more unjust than this. Let me read the reso lutions : — The General Government shall secure, without delay, the completion of the Intercolonial Railway from Rivi6re du Loup, through New Branswick, to Truro ia Nova Scotia. The communications with the North-West ern Territory, and the improvements required for the development of the trade of the Great West with the seaboard, are regarded by this Conference as subjects of the highest importance to the Federated Provinces, and shall be prose cuted at the earliest possible period that the state of the finances will permit. The Confederation is, therefore, clearly com mitted to the carrying out of both these en terprises. I doubt if there was a member of the Conference who did not consider that the opening up of the North-West and the improve ment of our canal system, were not as clearly for the advantage of the Lower Prorinces as for the interests of Upper Canada. Indeed, one gentleman held that the Lower Pro rinces were more interested — they wished to get their producte into the west — they wanted a back country as much as we did — they wanted to be the carriers for that great country — and they were, therefore, to say the least, as much interested in these questions as we were. But honorable gentlemen lay stress upon the point, that, while the one enter prise is to be undertaken at once, the other is not to be commenced untU the state of the finances wiU permit. No doubt this is correcti and the reason for it is simply this — the money has already been found for the Inter colonial Railway. They must be well aware that the lateGovernment(tbe Macdonald-Sicotte Administration) agreed to build the Intercolo nial Railway, and obtained from tbe Imperial Government a guarantee of the debentures for building it — so tbat tbat money is ready at a very low rate of interest, whenever required. We know where to find the money for one enter prise at a rate we are able to bear, and can thus at once go on with a work which must be gone on with if this union is to be consummated. But we don't know this of the other great work — and we all felt that it would be exceed ingly indiscreet — I, myself, as the special ad vocate of opening up the Great West and of the enlargement of our canals, — felt that I could not put my name to a document which declared that at aU hazards, while our five per cent, debentures were quoted at 75 or 80 per cent, in the nioney market — we would commence at once, without an hour's delay, any great public work whatever. (Hear, hear.) Honorable gentlemen opposite must not imagine that they have to do with a set of tricksters in the thirty-three gentlemen who composed that Conference. What we have said in our resolutions was deliberately adopted, in the honest sense ofthe words employed, and not for purposes of deception. Both works are to go on at the earliest possible moment our finances will permit, and honorable gen tlemen wiU find the members of the Cabinet from Lower, as well as from Upper Canada, actuated by the hearty desire to have this whole scheme carried out in its fair meaning. Hon. Mr. CARTIER— Hear, hear ! Hon. Mr. GALT— Hear, hear ! Hon. Mr. BROWN— When recently in England, I was charged to negotiate with the Imperial Government for the opening up of the North-West territories. In a few days the papers wiU be laid before the House, and it wUl then be seen whether or not this Government is in earnest in that matter. Sir, the gentlemen who formed the Conference at Quebec did not enter upon their work with the miserable idea of getting the advantage 1— I CO CO 1—1 "^ iCi -^ rH Cq i^- O I-I -^ 00 C5 O OS M Vint.li sides of this Question, but i shall not now in his place — that the appointment of members of the Legislative Council in 30 on both sides of this question, but endeavor, honorable gentlemen, as briefly as 226 possible — for I do not feel able to address you at any length — to speak in that moderate tone in which I conceive the question before us ought to be dealt with. In the discussion of so important a question as the change of the Constitution of the country, the laying aside of the old Constitution and the adoption of a new and very different one, we all ought to endeavor to flnd common ground of agree ment. It is important that no party, or at least no sectional interest among political parties, should betray itself in the discussion of so important a subject. I shall now en deavor to take a brief view of the scheme, as it is presented, and endeavor to give an exposition of the views whioh I entertain with regard to this matter. ("Hear, hear.) It appears to me, in the first place, that the origin of this scheme was not what it ought to have been. It did not emanate from the people, but from the fact that certain politi cal difficulties existed in Canada, in conse quence of the political parties being so equally divided that it was found impracticable to get on with the government of this province. The scheme emanated from the Government of this country in consequence of those politi cal difficulties, and had not its origin with any movement among the masses of the peo- " pie. It is very well known that at the last general election, in 1863, this was not among the questions that were brought before the country. It was not one of those questions that the people were called upon to decide in retuming members to represent them in the Legislature. It is very true that the scheme of a Federal union of all the provinces has been spoken of for a quarter of a century by eminent men of all shades of politics. We may refer to the convention that was held at Kingston, at which the British American League was formed. That convention was convened by the Conservative party of Upper Canada. Subsequently, the great meeting — if I may use that expression — that was con vened in the city of Toronto, referred to the same question. But I go back and appeal to the fact that at the last general election, it was not one of those questions that were re ferred to the arbitrament of the people to decide by their votes as to the desirability of union. I think every honorable gentleman will agree with me that this was the fact. Now, honorable gentlemen, I desire to speak in a temperate tone and manner in regard to this scheme. I beUeve the gentlemen that now constitute the Government of Canada, as well as the gentlemen who constitute the dif ferent governments of the Lower Provinces, are all able men, and I believe they are all honest and practical men, and it was by and through the instrumentality of honorable gentlemen constituting the Government of Canada in connection with the governments of the Mari time Provinces that this scheme, if it had not its origin, at least was by them put before the people of this country in the shape in which it now presents itself in these resolutions. I therefore observe that this is a measure emanating from the minds of the foremost men in Canada, and probably the foremost men on the continent of America. Still, it is not a measure that has emanated from the people, and I would ask you all, honorable gentlemen, in reference to the change of a country's Constitution, if history does not bear me out in asserting that all such changes are preceded by a rising ofthe people in favor of the change. The people, feeling oppressed by the existing state of things, rise in their majesty and put an end to its continuance, and demand a new Constitution. But in re gard to a change effected in the manner in which this is proposed, by the united wisdom of the several governments, without any convulsion, I hold that under those cir cumstances the people of the whole country to be affected by the change ought to have an opportunity of considering the great change. It is not sufficient in my mind that a few of the leading spirits of the land should be able to control and bring about so great a change without the initiatory steps being taken on the part of the people. Now, honorable gen tlemen, I would refer to the representation in the first conference— the conference in which the initiatory steps were taken — at Charlotte town. All honorable gentlemen are aware that the governments of the several Maritime Pro-vinces had decreed by resolutions passed during former sessions of their several par liaments, that they were to send delegates to meet at Charlottetown, for the purpose of uniting their several governments under one govemment ; in other words, to consolidate their governments into what would be termed a legislative union. We could aU understand from the position of those several local gov emments that it was a matter of very great importance that they should unite their gov ernments under one to obviate the necessity of having different rates of duty ; and in fact their interests were so blended that we can understand that union was of very great im portance to tbem. The Government of Can ada met the delegates at Charlotte :;jwn, and 227 by the representations that were made to the representatives of the Lower Pro-vinces, they abandoned their project of meeting together for the purpose of consolidating their govern ments, and took up the larger question of a Federal union of all the provinces. I believe, honorable gentlemen, that if the inducements held out to the delegates convened at Char lottetown to abandon their first scheme were fuUy known, it would be found that chief among them was the construction of the In tercolonial Railway. It strikes me very for cibly from all that I heard in the Lower Provinces during a recent tour, that if there was one thing more than another to which the people gave prominence, it was the Inter colonial Railway. Now, with reference to this subject, the plan previously adopted was, that Canada was to furnish five-twelfths of the money, and the Maritime Provinces seven- twelfths. It appears by the resolutions laid on the table of this House, that if the Con federation scheme is carried out, the Inter colonial Railway is to be buUt. I admit it is a matter of necessity that it should be built in that case. There is no doubt about it. We cannot have union without it. But the fact does exist, that instead of Canada con tributing five-twelfths of the cost of construc tion, it -wiU be called upon to contribute about ten-twelfths. (Hear, hear.) I merely mention the fact to show that it appears to me that some strong inducement must have been held out to the delegates from the Low er Provinces to enter into this great scheme, when we find, as it is very well known, that the Intercolonial Railway has been one of those objects that has been first and foremost in the minds of the people of almost all the Lower Provinces. It would open up for them a vast section of new country, and the benefits to be derived would certainly be par amount to them above anything Canada could derive from its construction. It is therefore evident to my mind that this inducement has been held out in order to induce those prov inces to come into the proposed union. Again, with regard to representation in the Confer- ference — I refer now to the Conference at Quebec — there were twenty-one honorable gentlemen constituting the delegation from the Lower Provinces. Am I correct ? Hon. Sir E. P. TACHE— I believe that is correct. Hon. Mr. MOORE— There were twelve delegates from the Province of Canada; We were told by my honorable friend the Commis sioner of Crown Lands that they did not vote by numbers but by provinces. Well, in vot ing by provinces, I think there was nothing to be gained, so far as the advocacy of certain measures in the interests of the Province of Canada was concemed in this Convention. For if they voted by provinces, the little Island of Prince Edward, and Newfoundland, would equal the votes of the Province of Ca nada. Now, honorable gentlemen, when we consider the position of Canada, our resources, and the amount that this province will bring into the common treasury, it does appear to me that Canada was not equitably represented in the Convention. I would not for one mo ment attribute to the delegates from Canada neglect of their duty in any particular, but when there became a necessity that certain arrangements were to be made with the Lower Provinces, then I can understand that if they were more favorable to the Lower Provinces than to Canada, the vote would preponderate in favor of the former. There is another point, honorable gentlemen, to whioh I would like to draw your attention, namely, the in crease of the expense of government under tbe new arrangement. It does appear to me, that if the scheme is adopted, it will neces sarily increase the burdens of the people, and, I believe that we will be obliged to resort to direct taxation to sustain the local govern ments. It appears to me impossible to have so many local governments, and, also, a Gene ral Government, without greatly adding to the expense. There is yet another point on which I feel more deeply than on any of the preced ing. It places Lower Canada in a false posi tion. ThQ Anglo-Saxon race of Lower Cana da is nearly one-fourth of the population, and in the Local Government they will be com pletely under the control of the people of French origin ; not that I believe but that the latter would endeavor to give all their just due, but still it does appear to me that it places the people of Anglo-Saxon origin in a false position. Then the French population in the Federal Government is placed in a false position, for there they will be in a very small minority — in the same position, relatively, as the Anglo-Saxon race in the Local Govern ment. The honorable gentleman who ad dressed the House so very ably and eloquent ly last evening — the honorable member for Krie — said he preferred taking the scheme as it was rather than risk any alteration. It has also been said by honorable gentlemen of the Government, that they could not permit any alteration, or suggestion of amendment, to be made in the resolutions now before the Hbuge.- 228 But it does appear to me, honorable gentle men, that inasmuch as there are five different legislatures to take those resolutions into con sideration, if any one branch of either ofthose legislatures should be able to suggest any im provements, and the resolutions should be changed before their adoption by that branch, such a step would not defeat the whole scheme. It would be only offering so many suggestions on the part of the representatives of the peo ple. Of course any alterations suggested in this manner, would go before the Imperial Parliament as a basis upon whioh to con struct an Act of Union. It would afford the Imperial Parliament an opportunity of knowing the people's sentiraents, and would not in any way really interfere with the proposed union being carried out. Therefore I think that any amendment that may be made in this branch of the Legisla ture, or in the other branch, or in either of the branches of the legislatures of the Mari time Provinces, would only go before the Im perial Parliament as so many suggestions that might very properly be considered by the Im perial authorities in dealing with so very im portant a subject. New, admitting, as I do admit, that the gentlemen who constituted the delegation from Canada in the Conven tion, were the first men of our land — I be lieve men of patriotism, and who desired to do only that which was for the best interests of the country — still they are not infaUible. They may have made mistakes, and may have omitted some things that, even if they were again to go into conference after six months had elapsed, might be placed in the resolu tions that would very much improve them. My honorable friend from Peel has stated that although he approved of most of the resolutions, he desired to see amendments made, but inasmuch as he saw their intro duction by this House would be fatal to tbe whole measure, he would take the whole as it stood. I disagree with that honorable gentleman, and witb the position taken by the honorable gentlemen representing the Government in this House. I think it is a mistake, and it is insulting to both the House and the country to suppose that, because a certain number of men met together and do- liberated for fifteen or eighteen days, there should be no improvement made upon the result of their deliberations. Now, hon orable gentlemen, I am one of those who, if I can be convinced that a Federal union is going to promote the stability or welfare of Canada, -wUl go with it most heartily, but I do think it becomes necessary not to make out altogether an ex parte case, because I think the resolutions that were passed by the dele gates, though sent out to the country, ought to be accompanied by the other side of the question, which has not been fairly heard." 'There is still another matter to which I wish to refer, and in doing so I might remark that I am aware that this is looking at the darkest side of the picture. I think that the engraft ing of this system of government upon the British Constitution has a tendency to at least introduce the republican system. It is republican so far as it goes, and that is an other reason why I do not approve of it. If wc commence to adopt the republican system, we shall perhaps get the idea of continuing the system until we go too far. It is also said that we are to have a new nationality. I do not understand that term, honorable gentlemen. If we were going to have an in dependent sovereignty in this country, then I could understand it. I believe honorable gentlemen will agree with me, that after this scheme is fully carried into operation, we shall StiU be colonies. Hon. Sir E. P. TACHE— Of course. Hon. Mr. MOORE— Now, t.iat being the case, I think our Local Government will be placed in a lower position than in the Govern ment we have now. Every measure resolved upon in the Local Government will be subject to the veto of the Feder,-il Government — that is, any measure or bill passing the Local Legislature may be disallowed within one year by the Federal Government. Hon. Sir E. P. TACHE— That is the case at present as between Canada and the Imperial Government. Hon. Mr. MOORE— I beg to differ slightly with the honorable gentleman. Any measure passed by this province may be disallowed within two years thereafter by the Imperial Government. But the local governments, under Confederation, are to be subjected to having their measures vetoed within one year by the Federal Government, and then the Imperial Government has the privUege of vetoing anything the Federal Govemment may do, witliin two years. The veto power thus placed in tho hands of the Federal Gov ernment, if exercised frequently, would be almost certain to cause difficulty between the local and general governments. I observe that my honorable friend. Sir Etienne P. TachS, does not approbate that remark. Hon. Sm E. P. TACHE— You understand me correctly. 229 Hon. Mr. MOORE — It wiU be conceded that the question of the veto power was very ably discussed, at one time, in the United States Congress, and that discussion led to a qualification of the veto power in the Consti tution of the United States, so that now any biU passed by both Houses may be vetoed by the President within ten days thereafter, by assigning reasons for doing so. Both Houses may then, however, again take up the measure, and if they pass it by a two-third vote, it becomes the law of the land, independent of the President's wiU. Now, I would have the veto power applied in a similar way in our new Constitution. Exercising it in an arbi trary manner, as the Federal power is privileged to do, it must, from the very nature of things, create dissatisfaction and difficulty between, the two governments. Again, honorable gen tlemen, it is said that by this union we are to strengthen our defensive capacity. I really cannot see the force of this argument, unless it were possible that in uniting with the Lower Provinces their population was to be brought nearer to us. If nature were to make the necessary effort and move their territory up alongside of us, and thus make a compact mass of people, I would at once agree that it would strengthen us in a military point of view. But the fact is, the union will give an extension of territory far greater in proportion to the num bers of the population than now exists in Canada. From that circumstance, I argue that it will weaken instead of strengthen us. ; (Hear, hear.) Unfortunately, if a war should take place between the United States and Great Britain, the Lower Provinces have a thouaand miles of sea coast open to attack, and I apprehend they would be very jealous about having their mUitiumen sent to Canada for our defence from border incursions. And it would be very natural for them to desire that all their own force should be kept at home for their protection ; and the same with regard to Canada. If a consider^ible portion of the mUitia of Canada were ordered to proceed to the Lower Provinces, it would most certainly weaken and cause great dissatisfaction in Can ada. But, setting that aside, does it increase our numbers and our means of defence ? Have we not the same territory exposed ? We shall have no additional men by the union for the defence of Canada. Perhaps, after the union takes place, emigration will flow into the Oountry, but I do not know that there would be any very great inducement, after a union, above the inducements that now exist. It appears to me that that question and fact would remain in very much the same state as at present. Honorable gentlemen, in conclu sion, I would say that I have thus endeavored to point out some of the objections to the scheme as presented that have occurred to me. We have all a common interest in this matter. (Hear, hear.) I think that no po litical or party feeling should have any bear ing upon its consideration, and if, after a free and fuU discussion of its merits and demerits, and the people and the members of Parlia ment come to fully understand the question, it is found that it is going to be an advan tage to the country, I will certainly give it my cheerful support. But I do wish to have some things respecting it made more clear to my comprehension than they are at present, and it is for these reasons that I have taken up the time of the House in making these few remarks. (Cheers.) Hon. Mr. MoMASTER said— The reso lutions before the House have been so ably discussed in nearly all their different bearings, that it appears to me that but little can be ad vanced on either side in addition to what has been already said. I shall therefore only oc cupy the time of the House for a very few moments in explaining my reasons for the vote I intend to give on the amendment of the honorable member for WfeUington. When the Confederation of the provinces was first proposed, I, although favorable to the princi ple of the scheme, entertained grave doubts as to whether, if carried, it would be of any real beneflt to that section of the country in which I am more immediately interested. Much, however, depended upon the details, and after giving them a good deal of consid eration, I have been unable to come to the conclusion that the scheme, as a whole, will be a remedy for all the evils complained of by the people of Upper Canada. (Hear, hear.) The appropriations to be made annually to the local legislatures out of the genera! rev enue I regard as being most objectionable. (Hear, hear.) This, I believe will go far to neutralize some of the advantages which would have resulted from the scheme had tbe governments of tbe different provinces been obliged to provide for all expenditure of a strictly local character. The building of the Intercolonial Railway must also be regarded as a very questionable part of the project ; indeed to my mind it is the most objection able of the whole. (Hear, hear.) We are told by honorable gentlemen that the abro gation of the Reciprocity Treaty renders this road an indispensable necessity in order to 230 secure an independent outlet to the sea-board ; but, if this view of the case be correct, why do not our merchants and millers forward their produce during the winter months to New York, Boston or Portland, by our or any of the other different railway lines which have long been open to these points ? The reason is obvious. The freight by railway is so expensive that they flnd it to be for their advantage to pay interest, storage and in surance on their wheat and flour until the opening of the navigation. And if they do not now avail themselves of the shipping ports referred to, neither of which are more than six hundred miles from Toronto, will they send their produce double that distance over the Intercolonial road to Halifax? Most as suredly not. (Hear, hear.) If the Recipro city Treaty even should be abrogated, the great bulk of our produce in the west will will then, as now, continue to be stored at the different places of shipment along our canals and lakes until the opening of navigation, so that whatever may be said in favor of the Intercolonial road in a military point of -view, or however it may be urged as a necessity in order to fumish easy and convenient inter course between the provinces in the event of their being united, I hold that as a commer cial speculation it will prove an entire failure, which must necessarily add greatly to our al ready large unproductive investments. (Hear.) And how the honorable gentleman from Toronto (Hon. Mr. Ross) could say as he did the other day, that Upper Canada alone had better build the Intercolonial RaUway than be without it, is what I cannot compre hend. Hon. Mr. ROSS — I say so again. Hon. Mr. MoMASTER— Well, if the honorable gentleman would resign his seat and present himself to any constituency west of Kingston, giving the views he has enunciated about this railroad a prominent place in his address to the electors, I fear this House would be deprived of his valuable services. (Laughter.; The change proposed in the constitution of the Legislative Council, by which the nominative is to be substituted for the elective system, I cannot but regard as a retrograde movement; and were the resolu tions providing change, and authorizing the buUding of tbe Intercolonial Railway, and the annual subsidy to the different local legislatures, submitted separately, and under ordinary cir cumstances, I should, if standing alone in the House, feel it to be my duty to record my vote against them ; but when viewed as part of a general scheme, embracing other provis ions, whieh may have an important bearing upon the future interests, the peace and pros perity of the province, I feel bound to consider the resolutions in that spirit of compromise which is absolutely necessary in framing any measure or constitution that will be at all likely to remedy our sectional difficulties. (Hear, hear.) I need hardly remind honor able gentlemen that nothing could be more unsatisfactory than the state of our public affairs for a long time past. The Legislature has been called together year after year, and the usual sessional expenditure incurred — which is always very large — but the sectional major ities arrayed against each other in the other Chamber, rendered useful legislation almost, if not altogether, impossible. Whatever govern ment was in power lived, as it were, by the day, and being engaged in a constant struggle fbr existence, the very natural desire to ob tain increased strength frequently led to the distribution of patronage and the expenditure of public money in a way that could not be justified. All admit we cannot go along as we have been doing, and that some change is necessary; and in the absence of anything bet ter being submitted, I feel inclined to give the scheme proposed a trial, believing that there are reasonable grounds to hope tbat the Constitution which is to be based on the resolutions before the House will, at least to some extent, remedy those sectional difficul ties which have operated so much to the pre judice of the country. (Hear, hear.) ItwiU secure to the people of Upper Canada the entire control of their local aflairs, which I regard as being of the utmost importance. It will put an end to the system of duplicating in one section of the pro-vince large amounts of money granted to the other for colonization roads and other local objects, on which vast sums have been squandered. It will secure to the people of Upper Can.ada representation by population in that branch of the Federal Legislature whioh controls the purse-strings. It wiU also give to them all the unsold Crown lands in tbe western section of the province. And I trust the promises made with reference to the widening aud deepening of our canals, and the opening up of the North-West Territory wUl be carried out in good faith. (Hear, hear.) Indeed no Government can afford to treat with entire neglect works of so much importance to Upper Canada, and at the same time incur the large expenditure required for the Intercolonial Railroad. (Hear, hear.) When I look at these advantages, and think of the critical 231 position in which the province is now placed, and the serious consequences that might pos sibly follow, should the Confederation scheme be rejected, I shrink from the responsibility of becoming a party to any amendment which may have the effect of defeating the measure. (Hear, hear.) Holding these -views, and looking upon the resolutions of the Quebec Conference in the light of a treaty entered into by five provinces, which must be either approved as a whole or rejected, I feel that in giving them my support, I am, all things con sidered, acting in the interest of the pro-vince generally, and doing what is best for my con stituents. (Cheers.) Hon. Mr. SIMPSON said— I think it was said by a wise man that there is nothing new under the sun. But had Solomon the scheme now before the House presented to him, he would probably have changed his opinion. Possibly nothing new can be said on the subject of representation by popula tion, or even on the scheme now before the House ; but representing, aa I do, one of the largest and wealthiest constituencies in Upper Canada, I think it necessary for me to give my reasons for the position I have felt it my duty to take in reference thereto. It has been stated that the elections whioh have lately taken place have gone in favor of the Government ; but, even if such were the case, how could it possibly be otherwise, seeing that men of all shades of politics have united in forming a happy family. We have seen those wbo bave been for almost a life time antagonistic to each other opening their arms, as was so well and eloquently depicted the other evening by the honorable member from Montreal (Hon. Mr. Ferrier), and embracing each other ; and we have been led to imagine that the millennium, so long predicted and anxiously looked for, has, so far as Canada is concerned at all events, at length arrived. (Laughter.) We are to have no more discord and no more strife, but are henceforth to live in harmony the one / with the other. It has been asserted that in regard to myself I owe my return without opposition to the fact that I avowed myself in favor of the Confederation of tbe pro vinces on the basis submitted. This is not correct. I held no meetings — I made no speeches — and in no instance was I asked what were my views in regard to the scheme ; and, if honorable gentlemen will permit me, I wiU read a portion of my short address to the electors. It is as foUows : — You wUl reasonably expect me to give my views on the important constitutional changes that are uow contemplated. No one at all ac quainted with the effects produced upon our legis- gislation and on the general prosperity of the country, by the unhappy sectional difficulties existing between Upper and Lower Canada, but must have felt that some remedy should be found for those evils. Whether the very able gentle men who have so strangely united to solve and remove these difficulties will be able to accomplish their praiseworthy task, time alone can tell. We need the details before being able to pronounce an opinion ; but heartily (and I hope in common with every well-wisher of their country) I most earnestly pray that they may succeed. It wiU be seen that here I simply state that the gentlemen who had so strangely come together would be entitled to the thanks of the country if they were able to agree upon a scheme which would solve the ad mitted difficulties between Upper and Lower Canada. But as I have read from my address, so I still maintain that, before we can be expected to express an intelligent opinion, we ought not simply to have half a scheme, but the details of the scheme in its entirety. If we refer to the election in North Ontario, wbere the Honorable Pro vincial Secretary had been the representative, and who returned for re-eleciion after accept ing office in the present Government, we find that he was defeated by a gentleman (Mr. M. C. Cameron) who is known to be an opponent to the project. And if we take the more recent election which occurred in South Ontario, we find the contest between two gentlemen, both personal friends of my own, and both of whom were favorable to the principle, but who pledged themselves that before it became an accomplished fact, it should, so far as their vote would extend, be submitted for the approval of the people. And I would be greatly deceived if the gen tleman who has now the honor to represent that riding in the other branch of the Legis lature (Mr. Gibbs) shall be found support ing the scheme unless that course be first taken. We need the details before it is possible that wc can pronounce upon the scheme and consider it on its merits. Hon. Mr. ROSS — You have the details. Hon. Mr. SIMPSON— The de-.ails are unfortunately the very things that are want ing — they are the marrow of the whole affair. (Hear, hear.) When the agitation for representation by population was first started in Upper Canada, I stated that I had no confidence in it as a cure for the evils 232 we complained of, and I then, and have ever since, felt that it would be better for the two provinces to separate than to create sectional jealousies and strife by the demand for an increased representation, and the religious cries associated with it. For my part, I have never, like some honor able gentlemen of this House, attended and presided over that kind of political organi zations known as conventions, not believing these to be the proper means of redressing tbe grievances under which the country labored. The effect of those conventions was to add fuel to the agitation which was already sundering the country. That such should be the result I deeply regret, inasmuch as some of the dearest friends I have in the world are not only Lower Canadians, but adherents of a different faith. The fruit ofthis sectional hostility and discord we now see in the demand which has sprung up for Federation with all its concomitant burdens. I can lay no blame to my conscience for having assisted to bring about so unnatural a state of things, and whatever may be the consequences of the new condition of politi cal existence towards whioh we are appa rently drifting, my skirts, I rejoice to say, are clear, for I have had no haod or part in it. We are told that if this scheme is car ried out. Upper Canada will be entitled to the great advantage of having in the House of Commons of the Federal Government 17 additional members. But what real advan tage is this to be to the country ? Do we desire 17 additional members for the purpose of crushing Lower Canada — is that what is meant? I answer, no. But even supposing we have 17 additional members — supposing re presentation by population is conceded in tbe new order of things — wLat will be the gain to Upper Canada ? Will these 17 new members cure the evils of which we complain ? Will they be able to reduce the excessive expenditures under which we are now laboring, and which have been one of the causes of the agitation for constitutional changes ? I do not believe a word of it. Supposing Upper Canada has a larger repre sentation by that number than Lower Canada, you must remember that Lower Canada, with the eastern provinces, is en titled to 112 members ; so that Upper Canada would still be in a large minority of the whole House. My honorable friend the member for Niagara (Hon. Mr. Currie) has brought before the House a number of valu able statistics bearing on this question, and I must say I deeply regret that the members of the Government sitting in this Chamber have not attempted to refute them. If these figures were wrong, they were easily susceptible of being so proved, especially by so able a gentleman as the Honorable Commissioner of Crown Lands. But he has not attempted the task, inasmuch as he knows it would be a hopeless one. I hold in my hands a statement furnished by the Auditor General to the Minister of Finance, from which it appears that our debt amounts to §75,578,000, and deducting sinking fund and bankers' balances, $7,132,000, leaves a balance of $G8,4'lfi,000 as the actual debt of Canada, to be borne by the people of this province under any scheme that can be con cocted. If we assume tbat the cost of the International Railway will be $20,000,000 — and from the experience afforded by the Grand Trunk there is too much reason to fear it will be double that amount — the pro portion which Upper Canada would have to bear would bs $15,000,000, and this added to the already existing debt, would make our direct debt 883,446,000. This increase in our debt will be one of the fruits of Con federation. But it maybe said that the road will yield a revenue, though every member of the House who knows anything of rail- -nay statistics, aud the character of the coun try to be traversed by the Intercolonial Rail way, must know that this is impossible. My honorable friend from Toronto (Hon. Mr. Rossj when he issued his flaming pro spectus to the capitalists of England fondly hoped that the Grand Trunk would pay Hi per cent, on the investment. But we know how these expectations have been disap pointed by the actual result, and so far from there being grounds to hope that the Inter colonial Railway will occupy a better position, there is too much reason to fear that it will be still worse. Why, the cost of its main tenance could hardly be less than $500,000 per annum beyond all its receipts. How then could such a work be considered to be of benefit to the country ? Hon. Mr. ROSS— In the same way as the canals — by cheapening the cost of transport ation. Hon. Mr. SIMPSON— This is impossible. It costs two cents per ton per mile to move freight by rail, and as the distance from To ronto to Halifax is 1168 miles, it would cost $2.28 per barrel to move flour from Toronto 233 to that port ; while a barrel of flour can now be sent vid the St. Lawrence at 50 cents or under, and via New York at 53 cents. Tak ing another view of the scheme, in its finan cial aspect, we find that Canada now con tributes, in all f-irms, to the support of the General Government, over 110,000,000 per annum. No one will say that we shall be called upon to contribute less under Confed eration. And if we add to this sum the in terest, at five per cent., on the additional debt of 815,000,000 created by the proposed rail way and the expense of two local govern ments, assuming them to cost $1,000,000 each, which is below the mark, with $1,000,- 000 to be expended annually on the militia, aa well as our share of maintaining and run ning the railway, we will find that the people of the two Canadas will be called upon to contribute $14,200,000 annually, instead of the $10,000,000, as at present. And I would ask honorable gentlemen if the country is in a position to bear this additional burden ? (Hear, hear.) Really, looking at the ques tion of expense, I am not sure whether I would not be in favor of returning to the primitive system of administering the affairs of the country — in preference to having this scheme — by a Governor in Council. (Laugh*- ter.) For there is no question that our an nual expenditure will be, under Confedera tion, at least many millions more than at present, with the cost added thereto of main taining and running the Intercolonial Rail way — a work which can never pay. Hon. Mr. FERRIER— It was predicted whei: it was proposed to build the Riviere du Loup section of the Grand Trunk that it would never pay, but the fact is that for the last two years it has not only paid expenses, but has given a profit. Hon. Mr. SIMPSON— I should not con tradict the honorable gentleman, because he knows more about Grand Trunk matters than I do, or most other people ; but my late respected friend, Mr. Freer, who was the lessee of that section during two or three years, told me that, while receiving a subsidy of $18,000 per annum for running it, with the free use of four engines, and with a suitable equipment of rolling stock, it would have ruined him had he continued to work the. line even on those apparently favorable terms. Hon.,JIr. ferrier — It is perhaps use less for me to say anything more, as the hon orable gentleman will not believe what I say 81 — (Hon. Mr. Simpson — Hear, hear) — but all I can state is, that a premium was offered for the lease of the line, but the company determined to take possession of it. Hon. Mr. SIMPSON— But the real ques tion is, what was the cost of original con struction, the interest oo that amount, and th 3 cost of maintenance ? Take these charges into account, and it would require a pretty large rental to cover them, much larger, I think, than any responsible person would offer for a lease of the line. As to the In tercolonial Railway, we have no information from the government respecting the route to be followed oi the length or cost of the road ; but from figures I have been able to obtain, the following may be taken to be nearly correct : — Miles To be built. built. From Halifax to Truro 65 . . Truro to Shediao 90 .. Shediac to St. John 108 . . St. John to St. Andrews (under contract) 75 ,. St. Andrews to Woodstock.. 50 .. Woodstock to Rivier du Loup .. 160 223 ,325 The total length of road from Rividre du Loup is 548 miles; add from Riviere du Loup to Quebec, 120 miles; Quebec to Mont real, 170 miles ; Montreal to 'Toronto, about 330 miles ; so that we have a total of 1,168 miles over which it is gravely proposed to send flour and other heavy produce during the winter months. (Hear, hear.) As has been already stated, before a barrel of fiour could reach Halifax from Toronto, it would be nearly eaten up in expenses. [An honor able member — There would be nothing left but the hoops. (Laughter). J It has been urged tbat under Confederation an active trade would spring up between Canada and the Maritime Provinces. A trade in what? What have we to send them ex cepting flour and the coarser grains ? The former, as has been shown, cannot be sent, and the latter they do not require. The principal articles of export from the Lower Provinces are fish, timber and ships. We can take a moderate quantity of fish ; but our forests supply ua witb an abundance of timber, and the ship yard.-j of Quebec turn out some of the finest sailing ships in the world. The true markets for the principal staples of export for these provinces are New York and Boston. Small vessels from 234 thirty to fifty tons, laden with fish, run from the Maritime Provinces to these ports, where they dispose of their cargoes and purchase with the proceeds, corn meal, flour, pork, molasses and other necessaries. But it has been left for our Canadian statesmen to propose new politioal alliances in order to divert trade and commerce from their natural channels. It is yet further said in favor of Confederation that it will increase our power of defence. In the ordinary ac ceptance of the term, union undoubtedly is strength ; but there are cases in which union, instead of being a source of strength, is in reality an element of weakness. If we could attach the territory possessed by the moon to these provinces, and obtain the as sistance for our- joint defence of the man who is popularly supposed to inhabit that luminary, we might derive strength from the Confederation. (Laughter.) But al though John Bull is accused of doing many foolish things, I am persuaded that tbe Mother Country is far too wise to entrust the lives of her valuable soldiers wben sent to our defence — as in case of need I feel well assured they would be — in passing over a road so liable to attack and so easy of destruction by our neighbors on the other side, should we unfortunately ever become involved with them in war, which I sincerely pray may never occur. (Hear, hear.) In conclusion I have simply to say that I cannot possibly vote fbr the scheme before the House, and thereby deprive the wealthy and intelligent freemen, who have twice elected me unanimously, of a Constitution obtained by long years of struggle, without knowing what wo have to offer them in its stead. (Cheers.) Hon. Sir E. P. TACHE— Before the question is put, I have a few remarks to make on the general question, and particularly on the motion of amendment which is now before the House. I havo copious notes which I will not refer to now, but which I -will make use of at another stage of the debate. Ques tions have been put to me by several members, which I will answer in due season ; and ex planations have been asked, which I hope also to be able to give. But, at present, my object is merely to make a few remarks in reference to the amendment wliich has been brought forward by my honorable friend from Wel lington (Hon. Mr. S-\NB0RN). When the gentlemen who composed the Conference met, they had to lay down a broad basis, as it were. for the foundation of their superstructure. Well, it so happened that the corner-stone was that which concerned the representation in both Houses. It was agreed on the one hand that in the House of Commons of the Confederate Government representation should be according to numbers, and that in the other branch of the Legislature it should be fixed that this representation should be equal for all the provinces — that is to say. Upper Canada, aud Lower Canada, and the Maritime Pro vinces, grouped into one, should each be allowed to send the same number of represen tatives, so as to 'secure to each province its rights, its privileges, and its liberties. We acted upon this principle, because we felt that if the House of Commons' representation was based upon population, equality should be secured in the other branch of the Legislature. My honorable friend from Wellington has gone over almost every detail of the scheme of Federation, and he thought also he would try his hand a little at constitution-making, by improving that part which has particular reference to the Legislative Council. WeU, honorable gentlemen, I think the saying is pretty correct that it is easy to find fault, but it is not so easy to do better. (Hear, hear.) The honorable gentleman no doubt thought in his Q-wn mind that he was going to improve the scheme of the Conference, but I think he has made it so bad that I believe I can shew in the course of the few observations I have to offer, even if we had the power to make a- mendments, no member of this House either from Upper or Lower Canada would consent to them for a moment. I have just said the agree- ¦ ment was that there should be equality in the representation in the Legislative Council. But the honorable gentleman has moved that the elective members as they now stand should form the Legislative Council in the Federal Government, and that also the life members should continue for the remainder of their days ; and, as a set-off against the life mem bers, he proposes to aUow the other provinces a certain number of new members who should have the right to sit in the Legislative Council of the Federal Government. But what does he do ? Does he preserve the proportion as laid down at the Convention ? Not a bit of it. The proportion agreed upon at the Con vention was one-third to the Maritime Pro vinces ; the Lower Provinces grouped together had a right to send one-third of the represen tatives. The honorable gentleman, however, I suppose out of the fulness of his good dis- 235 position — I am sure it was not pressed upon him by the delegates from the Maritime Pro vinces — comes forward and says, " I wiU give you ten members as a set-off against the twenty-one members who are now members for life in the Canadian Legislative CouncU." If I am not wrong in my arithmetic, ten are not a third of twenty-one. If the honorable gentleman had given seven members to the Lower Provinces as a set-off against the life members of this House he would have acted with strict justice, but he is generous enough to give them three more — ten, or nearly one half. Hon. Mr. SANBORN— Ten are nearer one-third than the seven you propose. Hon. Sir E. P. TACHE — I think the honorable gentleman is wrong in his calcula tion. I say we have 21 members sitting here for life, and if the other provinces are entitled to one-third of that number, it is clear to my mind that they would have a right to no more than seven. (Cries of "no, no," and "yes, yes.") Hon. Mr. CURRIE— They are entitled to a third of the whole. Do you refer to the elective members ? Hon. Sir E. P. TACHE— The elective members are a fact accomplished. On the elective principle it is proposed to give a third of the members of the Legislative Council of the Federal Government to the Maritime Provinces. But there are twenty-one life members of this House, and you want to give the Maritime Provinces an equivalent for them. Hon. Mr. CURRIE— But not one-half. Hon. Sir E. P. TACHE —You should only give them seven. Hon. Mr. SANBORN— No, ten. Hon. Sm E. P. TACHlS —We wUl have to get a schoolmaster. (Laughter.) If seven ia not a third of twenty-one, I do not know what a third ia. (Laughter.) I am not very fluent in speaking the English language, and when I am met right and left, behind and before, with interruptions like this, I assure you I feel it a hard trial, and if hon orable gentlemen have remarks to make, I truat they will wait until I have delivered mine. (Hear, hear.) Well, honorable gen tlemen, admitting that the third of twenty- one are not seven — (laughter) — I say admit ting, for the sake of argument, that ten are the third of twenty-one — (laughter) — I have another objection, and a very serious objection, which I do not think will advance very much the case of the honorable gentleman who has moved this amendment. Many of us have been appointed for life in tbis House, and some of us were so appointed many years back. Here, for instance, is my honorable friend on the left (Hon. Mr. Hamilton) who has been a member of the House some twenty-four years — who was among the flrst appointed by Lord Sydenham ; and I see on the other side, honorable gentlemen also far advanced in years — men who, in the or dinary course of life, cannot expect to be very long with us. Will the honorable gentleman propose to give to the provinces below the right to appoint old gentlemen ? Not a bit of it. They would send here young men — men who are in the prime of life — and when we shall have gone to our last home, these young men from below will be found sitting in your places and in my place. Where, then, would be the equilibrium ? The equi librium would be lost, and lost for ever. (Hear, hear.) And the honorable gentleman thinks that his amendment would be a great improvement to the scheme of the Conference. Well, for my part, honorable gentlemen, I believe it is a great failure in the way of im proving the scheme of the Con feder,a tion — a very great failure indeed. The honorable gentleman has had the opportunity of speak ing several times in this House, and very often he has made allusion to me since the opening of Parliament. He has endeavored to place me in contradiction to myself. He has stated that, in 1856, 1 was a member of the Govemment conducting the affairs of the House, and that I was the party who brought in the measure to extend the elective princi ple to this honorable House, and he says that I am here again, nine years later, endeavoring to destroy that which I had a hand in erect ing so long ago as I have stated. But, hon orable gentlemen, I think that when I shall have explained the circumstances which then forced the Govemment to bring forward the measure to render this House elective, you will agree with me that it was not on account of any fancy or predUeotion on their part that the elective system was proposed, but that it was necessitated by the circumstances in which the country found itself placed. It is from no levity in the minds of the members of the Government, or in my own mind ; nor is there any inconsistency in what I then did and in what I am now doing. But we will have something more on that point in the course of a few moments. The honorable gentleman, the other day, said we ought to speak freely on this subject, the measure 236 being one of very great importance. He did speak freely himself, and gave expression to the fear that the Protestant English element of Lower Canada would be in danger if this measure should pass. He said as much as this, that in the Legislature of Lower Canada acts might be passed which would deprive religious educational institutions there of their rights, and even of their property. Another honorable gentleman, who spoke yes terday, also gave expression to the fear that vested rights and privileges might be wrested from the hands of the English-speaking popu lation of Lower Canada — that there was no thing secure to them under the new Constitu tion. AYell, the honorable gentlemen who could see, in the future, such dreadful conse quences flowing from this union, and who make such sinister predictions, must make them upon some data. But I would ask hon orable gentlemen if since 1791, when the Constitution was given to Lower Canada, there is, in all the records of the Legislature of Lower Canada, a single act to be found in which it can be shown thatthe Lower Canadians — the Papists of Lower Canada — everattempt- ed to commit a single injustice towards their fel low subjects of English origin professing the Protestant religion ? I say, honorable gen tlemen, that the act is not to be found. But acts of generosity, acts of liberality, acts of tolerance are to be found everywhere. (Hear, hear.) When you predict things of the future you ought to have at least an inch of ground to stand upon. You ought to be able to say that at such and such a time you did such and such unla-wful acts. But I defy the hon orable gentleman to point to one such act. (Hear, hear.) As it was well asked by my honorable friend, Sir Narcisse F. Belleau, who was it that emancipated the Jews in 1808, much earlier than they were emanci pated in England ? Why, a Lower Canada House of Assembly. Who gave Protestant dissenters the right to keep records of mar riages and burials? AVell, it was a French Canadian — a Papist — House of Assembly. And that House had a great deal of difficulty, and why ? Because they were opposed in the Legislature of Lower Canada by the Protestant English minority. Hon. Mr. SANBORN— Not by an elec tive majority. Hon. Sir E. P. TACHE— Perhaps it is well that we have now responsible government, because responsible govemment is a cure for many evils. Well, the bill to give Protestant dissenters in Lower Canada certain rights was opposed again and again in the Legislative Council of Lower Canada, and opposed by English Protestants. But this was no less a proof of the liberality of the French Cana dians. (Hear, hear.) The honorable gentle man behind me is not at all satisfied with the electoral divisions as they stand in Lower Canada. He says there is no security what ever afforded by them to the Protestant com munity. But I wish that honorable gen tleman had taken the trduble to look a httle into the facts upon which he had based his conclusions in regard to tbese very electoral divisions. Honorable gentlemen, I feel warm on this subject. And why ? Because the limits of the counties in Lower Canada were devised by one of the most intelligent, upright and liberal men it has ever been my fortune to meet with. If a model of human per fection can be found in Canada, it must be in the person of the honorable Judge Morin. (Hear, hear.) Before laying his project be fore the Executive Council, that gentleman did me the honor to consult me in the matter, and on two occasions I attended by appoint ment at his office to advise with him on the details of his scheme. The divisions of the other branch of the Legislature were worked out so as to give our Protestant English fel low subjects everything which could be con sidered fair in every sense of the word. I say also that the same spirit was manifested in regard to the working out of the di-visions of the Legislative Council. I assisted to work them out in conjunction with the Hon. Mr. Cauchon, and I do assert here most solemnly that our whole trouble and study was to try and devise some means so as to give the English portion of the community of Lower Canada something like fair play. And when I am conscious of having done these things, I feel it comes hard on me to hear honorable gentlemen say that there is no se curity for them in the future, but that the French — the Papists — -may do anything they choose iu tbe lower branch of the Legislature. But, honorable gentlemen, if the lower branch of the Legislature were insensate enough and wicked enough to commit some flagrant act of injustice against the English Protestant por tion of the community, they would be checked by the General Government. But the hon orable gentleman argues that that would raise an issue between the local and the general governments. We must not, however, for get that the General Govemment is composed of representatives from all portions of the country — that they would not be likely to 237 commit an unjust act — and that if they did so they would be met by such a storm of opposition as would sweep them out of their places in a very short time But, honorable gentlemen, to comeback to the electoral di visions. — I wish to look at them a little more closely, to show the results already produced. I will iae obliged to make a comparison, but believe me, I do not wish to make in-vidious comparisons. When, however, honorable gen tlemen complain that they have no guarantee for the preservation of their rights and liber ties, I act on the suggestion of the honorable gentleman and speak my mind freely. Now, how does the population of both Canadas stand in reference to religious creeds ? We have in Upper Canada 1,396,090 souls, ac cording to the last census, and of that num ber there are 258,141 Roman Catholics. I should like to know how many Roman Catho lic representatives these 258,000 Roman Ca tholics return to this House ? I don't know one. I say that there are 258,000 Roman Catholics in Upper Canada who are not rep resented by one of their own faith on the floor of this House — except, indeed, there are those of the Roman Catholic faith of whom I am not aware. (Laughter.) Hon. Mr. CRAWFORD was understood to say in a jocose way that he was a Catholic. (Laughter.) Hon. SmE. p. TACHE said— No; you are an Orangeman — we have shaken hands together already, and I hope we may shake hands again, but when the honorable gentle man says he is a Catholic, I fancy he must be joking. (Laughter.) I wish, honorable gen tlemen, for you to pay a little attention to what I am saying, because it is facts that always teU. A tree is known by its fruits, and it is the fruit I wish to place before this House and before the country. The total population in Lower Canada at the last census was 1,110,000, and of these 942,724 were Roman Catholics, leaving of all other religious per suasions, know-nothings, if any there are, heathens and other unbelievers, 167,940. That is to say, honorable gentlemen, that the Protestants in Lower Canada are less in num ber than the Catholics in Upper Canada, by 91,201. Here, then, we have Protestants in Lower Canada to the number of 167,000, and the question arises how arc they represented in this House ? Well, they are represented by three members ; besides, there are two other honorable gentlemen from Lower Canada who have EngUsh names, but I really do not know whether they are Protestants or CathoHca. I do however know, as I before stated, that there are three honorable gentlemen, Protes tants, representing in this Council the 167,000 Protestants of Lower Canada. The honor able gentleman by my side, who has moved these amendments, is one of them ; an honor able gentleman who sits opposite to me is another, and an honorable gentleman who sits behind me, is the third ; and there are two other honorable gentlemen with English names whom I do not know whether to classify as Protestants or Catholics. I therefore say that in comparing the representation of the two sections of the province, the hon. gentleman has no cause to complain. I have ever labored to secure to my fellow subjects of English origin, of the Protestant faith, in Lower Canada, their rights and their liber ties ; and that my labors have not been in vain is proved by the fruits I have adduced. But that is not all. Hon. Mr. MOORE— There are five Pro testants in this House from Lower Canada. An Hon. MEMBER— But they are not aU elective. Hon. Sir E. P. TACHjS- 1 speak of the elective members, because the argument has reference to the electoral divisions. Now let us look at the other branch of the Legisla ture ; and I assert that the principle has worked equaUy well there. There are 258,000 Roman Catholics in Upper Canada represented in the other branch of the Legislature by only two Roman Catholics, aud one of these, I am told, like my honorable friend opposite who has avowed himself a Roman Catholic, never goes to mass. (Laughter.) He is, however, a good Catholic, because he has an accom plished and charming wife and most beautiful daughters, the whole of whom are zealous Christians and good Catholics, who go to church and confess regularly ; so that I am bound to take the head of the family as a good Catholic also. (Laughter.) Then, how does the case stand for the Protestants in Lower Canada ? In Upper Canada we have just seen that 258,000 Catholics are repre sented by just two members of their own faith in the lower branch of the Legislature. How are the 160,000 Protestants in Lower Canada represented ? Well, honorable gentle men, they are represented by no less than 14 members. (Hear, hear.) That is to say more by fifty per cent, than they would be entitled to according to strict rule of three. (Hear, hear.) I would ask are all these things mere matters of accident ? Is it chance or Dame Fortune that brings about 238 all these things ? I believe not. (Hear, hear.) Causes invariably produce effects ; and they are the effects mainly — I do not say entirely — of the pains we have taken to give our fellow- subjects of English origin the whole of their rights and fair play in every respect. The rest is due to French Canadian liberality. After stating these facts, I really do not think the honorable gentleman who represents the division of Wellington has much cause to complain. We judge of the tree by its fruit, and the fruit I have endeavored to place be fore you. If I have made any mistakes in my facts, I am ready to be corrected. But besides these 14 gentlemen representing the Protestant element in Lower Canada in the other branch of Legislature, I find three other English names, but whether they are Catho lics or Protestants I cannot say, and therefore, not being certain of their creed, I have classed them as doubtful ; but added to the 14, they would make the number 17. I think all this is pretty good proof of the liberality and the spirit of justice of the Lower Canadians ; and if they have acted so for three quarters of a century, how is it to be supposed, now that they are about to form the majority again in the Lower Canada Legislature, they will all at once change their mode of acting, and become ready to tyrannize over and commit acts of injustice on their fellow-subjects of EngUsh origin in Lower Canada ? I do not believe it. I do not believe there is such a thing as vandalism in their minds, and I believe they are as ready as ever to render equal and im partial justice to their fellow-men and fellow- subjects. (Hear, hear.) I must now pass to another portion of my remarks. Honorable gentlemen say I was inconsistent in that at one time I erected a monument, and since then I have been trying to pull it down. WeU, honorable gentlemen, to understand how we stood in 1856 it is necessary we should take the history of the Legislative Council a little further back — from the time of its formation immediately after the union. We had not responsible government at the time of the union, but then it was that the whole system was put in practice. The first batch of coun cillors were appointed in 1841, and were 25 in number ; but two of them never attended. Out of these 25 there were 18 conservatives and five reformers. In 1842 seven new councillors were added, five conservatives aud two reformers. In 1843 the Govemment changed, and the change made a little differ ence in the political bearing of the appoint ments, so that in 1843, there were appointed one conservative and five reformers. In 1844- 45 there were two appointments — two re formers. In 1846 there was one conservative. In 1847 there were four conservatives. There fore, in 1848, when the Liberal Govemment came into power — the Lafontaine-Baldwin Administration — the fact was that their parti sans in the Legislative Council were fifteen less than the opposite party. (Hear, hear.) What were the Reform Government to do ? They were forced to appoint a large batch this time. They appointed no less than twelve gentlemen. But still it left a majority to the conservative party of three. And if the conservatives had been true to themselves — and I wish to God they had been, and I will tell you, by and by, why — they could have prevented a good deal of trouble and a good deal of agitation in the country. Sup posing that what is called the Rebellion Losses Bill had not been passed in 1849, would the country have suffered a great deal from it ? But if the conservatives had been true to themselves they would have stopped the bill. It would have been discussed in all the public prints. Tho j\iontrealers would not have been entirely reconciled to the mea sure, but they would have waived their opin ions as dutiful subjects of the Queen, and we should not have witnessed the scandal we had in Montreal — the burning of the Parliament ary buildings and the Representative of the Queen pelted with stones and almost murder ed, followed by the annexation movement. But I say if the conservatives had resisted and just postponed the bill for another year, all this trouble might have been avoided. Now, honorable gentlemen, what was the spirit which actuated the appointments to the CouncU from 1841 to 1848 ? It was a spirit of partisanship, and where there is partisan ship there can be no justice. (Hear, hear.) Where there is partisanship there can be no stability — you can depend upon nothing. (Hear, hear.) It is only when justice is ren dered to all parties that you can reckon upon stable and permanent governmental institu tions. (Hear, hear.) To shew the difference between the spirit whioh actuated these nom inations, from 1841 to 1847, and the spirit which exists now, it is only necessary to refer to the resolutions of the Conference. Tbe fourteenth resolution says : The first selection of the members ofthe Legis lative Council shall he made, except as regards Prince Edward Island, from the Legislative Councils of the varioua provinces, ao far as a. sufficient number be found quaMed and willing 239 to serve ; such membera shall be appointed by the Crown at the recommendation of the General Executive Government, upon the nomination of the several local governments, and in such nom ination due regard shall be had to the claima of the members of the Legislative Council of the Opposition in each province, so that all political parties may, as nearly aa possible, be fairly repre sented. This shews you the spirit in which these reso lutions were framed. Certainly the gentlemen who composed the Conference were, like our selves, liable to err, but there is no doubt in my mind that they acted conscientiously from beginning to end. WeU, honorable gentlemen, after the buming of the Parliament House in Montreal, the greatest possible excitement was created aU over the province. Thoae who were most displeased at the passing of the Rebelhon Losses Bill, condemned in the most violent terms the swamping, as they called it, of the Legislative Council, though after all it was nothing to be condemned, seeing that it simply, to some extent, re-established the equiUbrium. But it was called, in the furor of the moment, the disgraceful swamping of the Legislative Council, and there was great agitation aU over the country. Well, by means of the press constantly hammering away upon what had been done by the Gov emment, and representing those who had been appointed as mere machines and tools of the Executive, although they were really among the most respectable and intelligent in Canada — ^but party passion does not reason — the people were led to believe that the Legis lative CouncU had been disgraced by the ap pointment of these twelve additional members. But during the time that the conservatives were, on the one hand, thus battering down the Legislative Council, what had we on the other hand ? We had the old Reform party in Lower Canada beginning to recall their old hatred to the Legislative Council. Although there was no reason to complain after the introduction of responsible govemment, yet people followed not their reason but their pre judice. So that the Legislative Council re ceived a cross-fire from both sides. It was being battered down by public opinion on either hand, and what could it do ? Nothing, but come down lower and lower in public esti mation. Although the consciences of the members reproached them" nothing — although they could walk the streets with their heads erect, yet the Legislative Council had been so much reduced in public opinion, that those gentlemen were really, I will not gay ashamed, but reluctant to attend in their places. But, besides, they came not to receive remuneration or salary. From the time they were appointed in 1841, they sacrificed their time and their money, and gave their ser-vices gratuitously to tho public ; and they were met, as I have already stated, by this universal deluge of abuse which was levelled against them. (Hear, hear.) There was therefore no great en couragement for them to attend in their places in the Legislative Council. But what have we seen since? Session after session, day after day, week after week, we saw the Speaker come into the Council with great pomp, as the Speaker always does come into the Council — (hear, hear, and a laugh) — pre ceded by the mace ; and after the Speaker had made his usual dutiful bow to the Throne, he would take his seat and remain quietly in the chair for the space of one hour. At the end of the hour, he would consult his watch, and saying there was no quorum present — although surely the quorum was a very small one, being ten members only — he would declare the House adjourned until the fol lowing day. It being sis o'clock, the Speaker left the Chair. After the dinner recess, Hon. Sir E. P. TACHiS continued his remarks. He said — Honorable gentlemen, when the clock struck six, I was stating that, in one session after another, the Speaker of this honorable House had day after day to declare that there was no quorum, and the Government of the day had to employ all sorts of means to induce honorable gentlemen to attend in their places. The prestige of the Legislative Council had gone, and the mem bers, notwithstanding the offer to pay their expenses, &c., remained at home, and the business of the country suffered very much. Towards the end of the session, we could muster a few gentlemen. But they did not take much interest in the business of the country — in fact, they were disgusted with it, and they got through legislation at railroad speed. Under those circumstances, what had the Government to do ? They were obliged to resort to some means to restore, if possible, the status stad prrestige of this House. There was one unanimous cry on the subject from one end of Lower Canada to the other — both conservatives and reformers being as one in pointing to the elective principle as a cure for the state of things in which this province was placed ; and the Government, in consequence, consulted with tho English authorities with a view of obtaining leave to extend to this House 240 the elective principle. This was not, as I have stated already, because ofany predilection on our part for the elective principle. It was not because we thought that the elective prin ciple was much better than the system of appointment by the Crown — at all events before the introduction of responsible govern ment. Before that, the gentlemen who no minated members of this House were respon sible to no one. The appointments then were all made on one side. Even after the union, but before responsible government was estab lished, or before it was put in a thoroughly practical working state, the appointments had been made in a partial manner. (Hear, hear.) And it is not surprising that we experienced the difficulties we did until that period. After the establishment of responsible government the position was very different — the resolutions of the 3rd September, 1841, having declared that no Government could be carried on except by heads of departments having the confidence of the representatives of the people in the lower branch of the Legislature. If, from that moment, bad appointments b,appened to be made to the Legislative Council, then the Government for the time being was responsible to the people for those appointments. And, when the people wanted an elective Council at that time, tbey did not base the demand upon constitutional principles, but were led by their passions, which had been excited by their recollections of the past. They did not reason the thing out ; and, in fact, the great majority of the people here, as everywhere else, are not able to reason out constitutional points — tbey are led by those who are at the head of the different parties. In saying this, I have no wish to be unjust to my countrymen. For even in countries like the United States, which boast much of their education, the immense mass of the people are led by prominent men. They do not reflect, they do not think for themselves — and so it was with our people. Tbe Government for the time being were thus, by the force of circumstances, obliged to bring forward the measure for altering the constitu tion of the Legislative Council. The measure -was passid by a pretty large majority ; and I think that until now the elective principle has worked remarkably weU indeed, and that the electors have sent to this House gentlemen who would do honor to any deliberative body in the world — I care not where, whether in England, or on the continent of Europe, or in America. But difficultiea have arisen since the passing of the Act of 1856, and the Gov ernment of the country came almost to a dead-lock. Some remedy had to be found, and gentlemen of opposite parties wisely came together with the view of devising a plan which would not only cure our domestic difficulties, but give greater power and force to the British North American colonies. To bring this about we determined that we would endeavor to obtain a Federal union of all the British American Provinces. Delegates from below, and the gentlemen composing the Ad ministration of Canada met together. Some of us might have preferred still to retain the elective principle, but then we had to meet those gentlemen from below, and we had to give and take. We could not carry every thing our own way. (Hear, hear.) The gen tlemen from the Lower Provinces were op posed to the elective principle, and went strongly for the system of appointments by the Crown. At the same time some among ourselves were not very much enamoured with the present system — (hear, hear) — and those who were anxious to retain the elective principle, were obliged to yield. Thus, hon orable gentlemen, what is now proposed comes before you, not as the act of the Government of Canada — (hear, hear) — but as the mixed work of the delegates from all the provinces, in the form, as it were, of a treaty. I do not think, after the explanations I have given that I can be accused of a great deal of in consistency, or of that levity whieh would make a man build up something to-day whieh he would be anxious to demolish to-morrow. No, honorable gentleman — but circumstances forced the Govemment in 1856 to bring on their measure for rendering tbis House elect ive ; and the circumstances of the country in 1864 required that we should have recourse to some other means to put an end to the dead-lock in which the Province was placed. (Hear, hear.) I am sorry that I do not see the honorable gentleman from Grandville (Hon. Mr. Letellier) in his place. Tho Hon. Sir Narcisse F. Belle.iu the other night made some remarks as to the difficulty of finding candidates for the Legislative Council. Now, for my own part, I should be exceedingly sorry to say anything that would wound the feelings of any one. And where could I look — before me, or behind me, or at my side — to find any one against whom I could bring the least reproach ? No — I re peat it again — that those whom the elective principle has sent here are gentlemen who would compare well with the members of any legislative body that could be mentioned. But then there are difficulties inherent to the 241 working of the principle itself. I would es pecially mention the difficulty which arises from the constituencies being so large. I know not whether this has been felt in Upper Canada, but I know that it has been felt in Lower Canada. Many of you, honorable gentlemen, have spent laborious days and laborious nights in canvassing these immense divisions, where sometimes the internal com munications arc exceedingly difficult. You know the wear and tear thus imposed on the human body, and that some gentlemen after canvassing these immense divisions, have found their graves in consequence of the exhaustion brought on by these efforts. (Hear, hear.) But, honorable gentlemen, it is not merely this tear and wear of the human constitution which you have had to encounter. This country, I need not say, is not very wealthy. In point of wealth it does not re semble the Mother Country. There are gen tlemen there with £200,000 or £300,000 a year, who think nothing of spending several thousand pounds, provided that by that ex penditure they can put themselves in a con spicuous position before the country. But here our fortunes are limited. That is the case in Lower Canada. I hope it is not so in Upper Canada. Hon. Mr. CAMPBELL— It is worse there. (Laughter.) Hon. Sm E. P. TACH]^— Your fortunes in Upper Canada may be much greater than ours. (Cries of " no, no.") But I can tell you how it is generally among ourselves — speaking not so much for the district of Mon treal as for the portion of the country in which I live myself, the district of Quebec. Where I reside, some forty or fifty miles below Que bec, the fortunes are not very large, and the farmer who by his industry has been able to accumulate some £8,000 or £10,000 is a very wealthy man. My honorable friend beside me (Hon. Mr. Campbell) suggests that it is the Ottawa gentlemen who are able to afford a contest. (Laughter.) If so, I tell honorable gentlemen that we cannot affoid it below. It is but few whose fortunes reach £6,000 or £8,000— perhaps half a dozen in a large parish. It is true that some of our merchants in Lower Canada, by their in dustry and aptitude in trade, have accumu lated very handsome fortunes — but these are the exceptions. WeU, a man who, after fifteen or twenty years of hard labor, has accumulated £6,000 or £8,000 for his family, or for his old age — knowing how a candidate is bled — (laughter) — is not very willing to go and 32 spend h alf of it in an election. You cannot persuade such a man to come forward — but you may engage other parties who have not got much money to lose to do so. These men will be ready to promise a great deal, though they may not be able to fulfil their promises, and are thus more likely to be elected than those who have fortunes. My honorable friend from Grandville, I think, "misapprehended the honorable Knight on his left (Hon. Sir N. F. Belleau,) when he understood him to speak slightingly of the talent of honorable members of this House. We have iio aristocracy here in the sense of a family aristocracy, but we have an equally influential aristocracy, that of intellect. (Hear, hear.) And a man of inteUect and education, though not a rich man, I consider is in every way worthy of respect, and would be a most desirable addition to this House. But, suppose we have a man of respectability, of education, and of intellect, and one who is highly esteemed by his neigh bors — suppose he has a little fortune besides, he is not the worse man for that. (Hear, hear.) Hon. Mr. LETELLIER DE ST. JUST— He is so much the better. (Hear, hear.) Hon. Sir E. P. TACHE— But, as I was remarking, what I am afraid of is, that men who are well qualified for the position, after having gone through one or two elections, in which they have lost one-half, or two-thirds, or the whole of their fortune, are not likely to stand another contest, and we lose the happi ness of meeting them here again. And I fear thatthe longer the elective system is continued, the greater would be the difficulty in that respect. Let us take a lesson from history, and from what goes on around us. I recol lect that, in 1855, when on board the Canada, going to Europe, I made the acquaintance of some most respectable Amer ican families, and particularly of a most in teresting American woman. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) Honi soit qui mal y pense. (Con tinued laughter.) I met with a very inter esting American woman, and, as she was con versing with me and mentioning some very preposterous laws that had been;passed in her state, I said — " Madame, have you not some people of good common sense and respecta bility to oppose such absurd laws ?" She re plied, " Sir, I am an American woman, and — I am ashamed to say it — the respectable people, the people of standing in our state, have no voice in the government of their country." (Hear, hear.) Many of you, honorable gentlemen, are familiar with the 242 state of things in the United States, which has resulted from carrying the elective prin ciple too far ; and the fact that that principle, carried too far has worked much mischief, ought to place us on our guard. Some years ago, in Canada, there was quite a rage for the elective principle, and an agitation was got up with the view of rendering the judiciary elective. Well, a statesman of the United States, with whom I am well acquainted, and who now occupies a high position in that country, once remarked to me : " You have quite enough of the democratic element in your Constitution already, and, above all, do not make your judiciary elective, for that would be one of the greatest curses you could inflict on your country." (Hear, hear.) The elective principle, kept within proper bounds, is very good indeed, and hitherto, no doubt, has worked well in this House. But I doubt whether, in the course of time, tbis House would not lose its present high status if the elective principle was continued in it for ever. As regards this, however, I merely state my own opinion, and other honorable gentle men may hold contrary opinions, as tbey are perfectly entitled to do. (Hoar, hear.) Hav ing thus, honorable gentlemen, explained the reasons which induced the Government, in 1856, to propose that the elective principle should be extended to this House, with the concomitant circumstances whicii assisted in bringing that about — and having also ex plained the reasons which have induced the Government now to look for another state of political existence, as we may call it, by Con federation with the Maritime Provinces, I think I am clear from any imputation of inconsistency or levity of purpose. Before sitting down I have a personal explanation to make. When I speak, honorable gentlemen, I speak with sincerity, but, like any other man, I may commit a mistake. The moment, however, that I flnd I have committed a mis take, I am ready to admit it, as any honest man should do. (Hear, hear.) I find that I took a wrong view of the proportions of ap pointed members that were to be allotted to each province, in case the amendment of my honorable friend from the Wellington Divis ion should pasf. I have since been convinced that I was wrong, and that it was really car rying out the principle of distribution adopt ed in the scheme, to allot to the Lower Prov inces other ten members. I am glad to admit that my honorable friend was right in cor recting me. But I stiU maintain that he was wrong — very wrong — in bartering old men for young ones, because, no doubt, the old men would soon disappear from their seats, while the young men from below would long retain their places, and we would thus destroy the equilibrium upon which the whole fabric of the proposed Constitution is based. I say the honorable gentleman was wrong in that, and that, if his proposal were adopted, it would certainly be no improvement on the scheme as it has come from the Conference. (Cheers.) Hon. Mr. SKEAD said — Honorable gen tlemen, I claim the indulgence of the House for a few moments while I state from my point of view, as one of the representatives from Central Canada, the way in which I regard the measure now under consideration. I am an advocate of the union of the British North American Provinces. (Hear, hear.) When I came here a few weeks ago, my mind was scarcely made up as to the course I should pursue. At the same time I was desirous of taking that course which should be approved by the majority of my constituents. In No vember last I received the document which was sent to members of both Houses through out the province ; but as it was marked " Pri vate," I felt bound by every consideration of propriety not to make it public. Having at that time been reelected by my constituents, I had no occasion to use it in connection with securing my return to this House. But, speaking of my reelection a few months ago, I may remark that a number of my constitu ents felt disposed at that time to pledge me to oppose this union of the British North Amer ican colonies. For my own part I felt it would be wrong for me to do so, not knowing what was the programme that was about to be laid ; I refused, therefore, to give a pledge. Probably I felt more independent on account of there being- no opposition. (Laughter.) But be that as it may, I have the same de sire to act in accordance with the deliberate views of my constituents as if I had canvassed every vote in the division. I pledged myself on the hustings on the day of my election, that as soon as the scheme was published I would give it my earnest attention, and form a judgment upon it to the best of my ability. After the document was formally laid on the table of the House, I waited till it was put in type, and having ordered two thousand copies of it, I sent them, some fifteen days ago, to my constituents, with a circular call ing upon them to state any objections they might have to the scheme if they con sidered it objectionable, and to indicate what 243 course they wished me to pursue with re ference to it. I am up to this evening with out any answers to that circular, with one or two exceptions which I need not take up the time of the House by further alluding to. I now take it for granted, having given such an ample opportunity to my constituents to express their opinions, that I am at full liberty to pursue that course which I think myself to be for the interests of the country. (Hear, hear.) My feeling in the first instance was that the matter was being pressed too rapidly in this House — that we might have waited for a little — that we should have allowed the other House to go on and adopt the resolutions first, if they did adopt them, before we were caUed on to pronounce a final decision upon them. But I have somewhat changed my mind from hearing the able speeches of honorable gentle men both for and against the amendment now under the consideration of the House ; and I have come to the conclusion to give an independent vote, according to the best judg ment I can form, since my constituents, after being invited to express their opinions, up to this hour have not responded to the request. I speak here as a representative of Central Can ada, and particularly of the Ottawa country. The people there are engaged mainly in one trade, the lumber trade ; and, with reference to that trade, the promulgation of this scheme has caused us some feelings of apprehension, not to say gloom. TUl within the last few hours, as late as yesterday, I was still in the dark as to the bearings of the scheme in that respect. But I have now had assurances from the Government — and particularly from one or two members of it — that the scheme is not going to inflict that injury upon the lumbering interest which we imagined. In fact the clause relating to that subject has been so ex plained to me, that I am now perfectly satis fied. (Hear, hear.) My feeling formerly was that our trade was treated in a manner which it did not deserve. Here we have a trade employing many thousands of people — employing a large amount of shipping to carry away the produce of our forests, which exceeds the amount of the exported agricul tural produce of the country by a value of some two miUions of doUars. We naturally felt that such a trade had some right to be considered. (Hear, hear.) However, accept ing the assurances of honorable gentlemen, in whom I have the utmost confidence, who compose the present Government, I am now quite prepared, as one of the representatives of the Ottawa section of country, to leave that matter in their hands. A great deal has been said in thia debate on the general question of the Confederation of these provinces, and as to that I shall say but little. As I have already stated, I am an advocate of union. I would even say that the scheme of the delegates to the Quebec Confererence does not go far enough. I contend that, instead of merely taking in the provinces to the east of us, the scheme should have embraced British Columbia and the whole of the territory to the west. An honorable friend near me says that will come in good time. But I am afraid that some Downing-street or other influence may prevent it. (Cries of " no, no 1 ") I should like to see the Pacific as the western boundary of this young Confederation, in the same w^y sis the Atlantic is its eastern limit, so that we should have one country stretching from ocean to ocean. (Hear, hear.) A great deal has been said in this debate on the subject of railways. Honorable gentlemen have spoken of the cost of building our railways, of tbe damage the Grand Trunk has done, and of the profits certain gentlemen have made out of it. For the life of me, I cannot see the force of their arguments. True, the Grand Trunk has cost a great deal of money, but how should we feel if we had to go back to the state of things which existed when we had no railroad ? What should we do if the Grand Trunk were now taken from us ? I believe we could not do without it. It has become a necessity. Every man within the range of its influence, has had his land enhanced in value — and the debt of $15,000,000 or $16,000,000, -while of course in itself a great deal of money, is noth ing when we reflect on the ability of the prov inces to bear it. If spared to continue here dur ing my term of eight years, I shall still advo cate the Intercolonial RaUway as a line neces sary to connect us with the seaboard. It will cost us some little money no doubt, but it will yield us compensating advantages. There are large forests to the east of us, which have stUl to yield up thqj^r wealth, and no one can tell how much may come out of that country, when its resources are developed. The subsidy we are now paying the ocean steamships will go a good way to pay the intereat on our share of the cost of the railway. Besides we are now spending a great deal of money to bring population into these provinces — an object that wUl be promoted to a large extent by the building of that road. To build it wiU take some four or five years, and we can not teU how much that section of the country wiU be settled in that time. It will no doubt 244 prove of great advantage to us. We shall then be ready, I hope, to commence the rail road to British Columbia, and the improve ment of the Ottawa river to the upper lakes — (hear, hear) — and the navvies and others who have been employed on these works will find employment on the road leading to the Pacific, and will ultimately become settlers in the great Red River country. (Hear, hear.) Such are my sentiments in connection with the subject now before the House. My ex perience may not have been as great as that of some honorable members, but I have been in the habit of observing what was going on around me, and I have come to the conclusion tbat the union of these provinces is desirable and necessary. (Hear, hear.) It has been said that the gentlemen forming the present Ministry have held such opposite opinions that no good can be expected to result from their coalition . I have not such a poor opinion of human nature as to feel disposed to question in any way the sincerity and patriotism of those honorable gentlemen. They have seen the necessity of some change being brought about, if the good of tho country was to bo promoted. Whatever may have been the antagonism of their views formerly, they now occupy tho same wigwam, and, it is said, the same blanket covers them — (laughter) — and, so long as the country receives the benefit, I am satisfied to support them, no matter what their politics may bave been during the last twenty years. (Hear, hear.) No doubt the country has been suffering — a cure had to be found, and I think we are now on the highway to get it. (Hear, hear.) Honorable gentle men composing the Government will permit me to repeat that our lumber trade deserves their earnest and best attention on account ot the employment it gives to so large a number of persons, the way in whioh it swells the exports of the country, the market it affords for tho produce of the agricultural portion of the community, and the manner in which it forwards the settlement of our wild lands. To the Ottawa district^it is, of course, of special importance, but it has an interest for the whole province, inasmuch as it makes for us a back country. A country that is all frontier must always be a little country. (Hear, hear.) If a check is in any way put upon the lumber trade, as the consequence of its being placed under the separate control of each local government, it would be a result mueh to bo regretted. But it is to be hoped that the Government will give this matter their most eamest consideration, and that they wUl do what in their opinion is best for the interests of all concemed. It has been said by some in our section that Central Canada is to be made the footstool of Upper Canada, and that it is also to be made the footstool of Lower Canada. For my own part I am quite unable to see how we can be made the foot stool of both. (Hear, hear.) That was the idea expressed in a letter sent me the other day, begging me to give the scheme all the opposition in my power. It may be true that the western part of the province is a little covetous, and a little ambitious of controlling everything; still, I have that faith in the good feeling of the western people, and in our ability to protect ourselves, that I do not be lieve our lumbering interest is to be destroyed all at once, even though the Local Government of Upper Canada should have its seat in To ronto. Whoever may compose the Local Gov ernment, I think they must see the import ance of the lumber trade, and -will do what they can to foster and enoom-age that which is essential to the good of the whole country. I do not believe they wUl adopt the policy cf killing the goose that lays the golden egg. (Hear, hear.) I see there is a disposition to have the vote taken, and I will not detain the House longer. (Cries of " go on.") I have only this to say in conclusion, that when these scattered provinces are united together, as is now proposed, and when the bond of that union has been sealed with the great Imperial seal of Great Britain — with the blessing and favor of an all-ruling Providence — I, for one, have no fear of the result. (Cheers.) Hon. IiIr. SANBORN said— I desire, be fore the vote is taken, to offer a single explan ation. The Honorable Premier (Hon. Sir E. P. Tach£) attributed to me certain remarks on wbich he based the early portion of his speech. He said I complained of the arrange ment of the electoral divisions in Lower Can ada. I made no such complaint. I made no allusion to tbat. What I had reference to was the appointment of Legislative Council lors for divisions, and their having property qualifications in those divisions. 1 am sure the Honorable Premier did not desire to at^ tribute to me anything I did not say. Hon. Sir B. P. TACHE— If my honora ble friend says he did not use the argument, of course my remarks upon it go for nothing. Hon. Mr. SANBORN— Another point, too, I may notice. The Honorable Premier based his argument on my having drawn a 245 distinction between Papists and Protestants. Now, I never used the terms " Papist," or " Catholic," or " Protestant." (Hear, hear.) The distinction I drew, and the remarks I made, were with regard to the English and the French of Lower Canada. And honorable gentlemen wiU remember that I distinctly ad mitted what the Premier had claimed for his countrymen — namely, their well-kno-wn liber ality. I have always admitted that, and have never had any disposition to deny it. But my argument was that, in establishing a Con atitution, our rights and interests should be protected by distinct provisions in that Con stitution — that these would form the only satisfactory assurance we could get — that we could not rest upon the liberaUty of any class of men, but must have the assurance of dis tinct guarantees. That was the line of argu ment I pursued. (Hear, hear.) I do not think the Premier should have been so hard upon me for not stipulating that the ten men who should be chosen in the Maritime Pro vinces should be old men, so^that they might not have the advantage of putting in young men as an offset to our old ones. When I see, in the casa of the Premier himself, at his advanced years, the youthful fire burn up so brightly, and that age does not at all detract from the vigor he manifesta, I think he must excuse me for not having made an invidioua diatinction between old men and young ones. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) Hon. Mr. WILSON begged to state that he was opposed to tho amendment, but was precluded from recording his vote, in conse quence of having paired off with Hon. Mr. Moore. The House then divided on Hon. Mr. San born's amendment, which was negatived by 42 to 18. CoNTEii'ia — Tbe Honorable Mesaieura Aikina, Archambault, Armstrong, Bureau, Chaffera, Cor mier, Currie, Flint, Leonard, Lealie, Letellier de St. Just, Malhiot, Olivier, Perry, Proulx, Reeaor, Sanborn, and Simpson. — 18.: NoN-CoOTENTa — The Honorable Meaaieurs Alexander, Allan, Armand, Sir N. P. BeUeau, Bennettj Blake, Fergusson Blair, Boulton, Boas6, Bull, Burnham, Campbell, Chriatie, Crawford, DeBeaujeu, Dickaon, A. J. Duchesnay, B. H. J. Duchesnay, Dumouchel, Ferrier, Poater, Gingras, Guevremont, Hamilton (Inkarman), Hamilton (Kingaton), Lacoste, McCrea, McDonald, Mc Master, Macpherson, Matheson, Mills, Panet, Price, Prud'homme, Read, Roas, Ryan, Shaw, Skead, Sir E.P. Tach6, and Vidal.— 42. LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY. Thursday, February 16, 1865. Hon. Mr. DORION, in reauming the adjourned debate on Confederation, said — I should have desired to make my remarks to the House in French, but considering the large number of honorable members who are not familiar with that language, I think it my duty to speak at the present time in English. In rising on this occaaion to ad dreaa the Houae on the important question submitted to us, I must say I do so with an unusual degree of embarrassment, not only on account of the importance of the sub ject of our deliberations, but also because I have to differ from many of those with whom I have been in the habit of acting ever since I first entered into political life. Yet, Mr. Speaker, when I consider the questions raised by the resolutions submitted by the Government, I find that whether they be purely political ones, such as the proposal to restrict the infiuence and control ofthe peo ple over the Legislature of the country by substituting a Chamber nominated by the Crown for an Elective Legislative Council, or whether they are purely commercial in their character, such as that regarding the Inter colonial Railway, or the larger question of Confederation itself, I still hold the same views that I held, in common with others who have now changed their opinions, when the subjects weie first mooted. (Hear, hear.) And as I have not heard, since the first opening of this debate, any reason for sub stituting a nominated for an elective Upper Chamber that was not fully argued out in 1856, when, by an overwhelming majority of this House, it was decided that the elec tive principle should prevail — as I have not heard any reason why we should pledge our credit and resources to the construction of the Intercolonial Railway, even previous to any estimate of its cost being made, that was not urged in 1862 when the question was before the country — nor any reason for inter colonial union that was net raised in 1858, when the present Hon. Finance Minister pressed the question on the attention of the Imperial authorities — I do not sec on what ground theae several subjects which wero then ao unpopular, and those views whioh were then almost universally repudiated, should now be more favorably considered by the people of this country — I fail to perceive why those once unpalatable measures, now 246 coupled with additions to the burdens of the people, should have grown into the public favor. I cannot understand why I or any members of this House should change our views merely because certain other members have, when we do not conscientiously think such change would be for the benefit of the country. I say, sir, that I am quite entitled to maintain the same views now that I have always entertained. (Hear.) This scheme, sir, is submitted to ua on two grounds ; firat, the necessity for meeting the constitutional difficulties which have arisen between Upper and Lower Canada, owing to the growing demands on the part of Upper Canada for representation by poulation ; and, secondly, the necessity for providing more efficient means for the defence of the country than now exist. These are the only two grounds we have heard stated for the propositions now submitted to us; and, sir, I shall apply myself to explain my views on these two subjects, and also upon the scheme generally. When on the first question, I trust I shall be permitted to go a little into the history of the agitation of representation by pop ulation, for I owe it to myaelf, to my constituents and the country. My name has been used in various ways. It has some times been said that I waa entirely favorable to representation by population — at other timea that I waa entirely favorable to the Confederation of the provincea, and I will uow endeavor, once more, to state as clearly as possible what my real views have been and still are. (Hear.) The first time represen tation by population was mooted in this House, on behalf of Upper Canada, was, I believe, in the Session of 1852, when the Conservative party took it up, and the Hon. Sir Allan Macnab moved resolutions in fa vor ofthe principle. We then found the con servatives arrayed in support of this constitu tional change. It had been mooted before on behalf of Lower Canada, but the Upper Canadians had all oppoaed it. I think two votea were taken in 1852, and on one of these occasions the Hon. Attorney General West (Hon. J. A.. Macdonald) voted for it; it came up incidentally. In 1854 the M ACNAB-MoRiN coalition took place, and we heard no more of representation by popula tion from that quarter-— that is, as mooted by the Conservative party, who from that moment uniformly opposed it on every occa sion. It was, however, taken up by the present Hon. President of the Council, the member for South Oxford, and with the en ergy and vigor he brings to bear on every question he takes in hand, he caused such an agitation in its behalf as almost threatened a revolu tion. As the agitation in the country in creased, so did the vote for it in this House increase, and on several occasions I expressed my views upon the subject. I never shirked the question — I never hesitated to say that something ought to be done to meet the just claims of Upper Canada, and that represen tation based on population was in the abstract a just and correct principle. I held, at the same time, there were reasons why Lower Canada could not grant it; I entreated Lower Canadian representatives to show themselves disposed to meet the views of Upper Canada by making, at any rate, a counter proposi tion ; and in 1856, when Parliament was sitting in Toronto, I, for the first time, sug gested that one means of getting over the difficulty would be to substitute for the pro- sent Legislative union a Confederation of the two Canadas, by means of which all local questions could be consigned to the delibera tions of local legislatures, with a central government having control of commercial and other questions of common or general interest. I stated that, considering the different religious faith, the different lan guage, the different laws that prevailed in the two sections of the country, this was the best way to meet the difficulty ; to leave to a general government questions of trade, cur rency, banking, public works of a general character, &c., and to commit to the decision of local legislatures all matters of a local bearing. At the same time I stated that, if these views should not prevail, I would cer tainly go for representation by population, and such checks and guarantees as would secure the interests of each section of the country, and preserve to Lower Canada its cherished institutions. (Hear, hear.) This speech, sir, has been twisted in all sorts of ways. I have heard it quoted to prove that I was in favor of representation by popula tion, pure and simple ; that I was in favor of a Confederation of the provinces and for several other purposes, just as it suited the occasion or the purpose of those who quoted it. (Hear and laughter.) The first time the matter was put to a practical test was in 1858. On the resignation of the Macdonald-Cartier Administration, the Brown-Dorion Government was formed, and one of the agreements made between its members was that the constitutional question should be taken up and settled, either by a 247 Confederation^of the two provinces or by representation according to population, with such checks and guarantees as would secure the religious faith, the laws, the language, and the peculiar institutions of each section ofthe country from encroachments on the part of the other. The subject came up again in the latter part of 1850, when the Toronto Convention took place. I should, however, first say that, when the Brown- DoRiON Administration was formed, the Hon. the President of the Council urged very strongly that representation by popula tion should be taken up as the method by which to settle the constitutional question ; while, on the contrary, I saw the difficulty of so taking it up, even with such checks and guarantees as were spoken of, and made the counter-proposition that a Confederation of the two provinces should be formed. Of course as our Administration was so short lived, the subject was not discussed in all its bearings ; but if we could have come to an agreement on one or the other mode, that one would have been submitted as the solu tion for the evils complained of — it being however distinctly understood that I would not attempt to carry any such measure through without obtaining for it a majority from Lower Canada. I would never have tried to make any change in the Constituion without ascertaining that the people in my own section of the province were in favor of such a change. (Hear.) To retnrn to the Toronto Convention. I wasinvited toattend it, but though I was unable to do so, certain communications took place, and a meeting of the liberal members of the House from Lower Canada was held, and a document issued, signed by the present Minister of Agriculture (Hon. Mr. McGee), Hon. Mr. Dessaulles, Hon. Mr. Drummond, and myself The document was given to the public for the purpose of setting forth the views which we held as to the settlement of the difficulty. Pretended extracts have been given from that document, as from my speech, to attempt to prove all sorts of things as being my views, but I can show most clearly that the proposition made in it was just that which had been made in 1858, viz, the Confederation ofthe two provinces, with some joint authority for both. Both at that time, and at the time of the forma tion ofthe IJrown-Doeion Administration, various suggestions were made aa to the carrying out of tbe plan of confederating the two Canadas. Some thought that two entirely distinct legislatures should be form ed ; one local for Lower Canada, another local for Upper Canada, with a general legislature acting for both. Others suggest ed the idea that the same legislature might fulfil all purposes ; that the same body might meet and deliberate on questions of common interest, and that the members for each section might then separate and discuss all matters of a sectional character. Others, again, said the same result might be obtained by having but one legislature, and insisting that no laws affecting either section of the province should be carried, unless with the support of a majority from the section affected by them. These three plans were suggested — the first to have two entirely distinct legislative bodies, one for general purposes, others for local ones ; the second, to have one legislature, of which the parts should have the right to act separately for local objects, after general business had been disposed of; the third, to have but one body, but to resolve that no legislative act of a local nature should pass without the consent ofa majority of the representatives from that locality. (Hear, hear,) The document to which I have just referred, issued in October, 1859, contained this language on the subject : — Your Committee are impressed with the con viction that whether we consider the present needs or the probable future condition of the country, the true, the statesman-like solution is to be sought in the substitution of a purely fedeiative for the present legislative union ; the former, it ia believed, would enable ua to escape all the e-vila, and to retain all the advan tages, appertaining to the existing union. ***** The proposition to federalize the Canadian union ia not new. On the contrary, it has been frequently mooted in Parliament and the press during the laat few yeara. It waa no doubt aug geated hy the example ofthe neighbouring States where the admirable adaptation of the federal aystem to the government of an extensive terri tory, inhabited by people of divers origins, creeds, lawa and customs, has been amply de monstrated; but shape and consistency were first imparted to it in 1856, when it waa formally submitted to Parliament by the Lower Canada Oppoaition, as offering, in their judgment, the true corrective of the abuses generated under the present system. The document further went on to say : — The powers delegated to the General or Fed eral Government ought to be those only which 248 are essential for the ends ofthe Confederation and consequently we ought to reserve for the sub divisions as ample powers as possible. Customs, finance, laws regulating the currency, patent rights, Crown lands and those public works which are of common interest for all parts of the province, ough to be the principal, if not the only subject submitted to the control of the Federal Government , while all that belongs to matters of a purely local character, such as education, the administration of justice, the militia, the laws relating to property, police, &c., ought to be referred lo the local govern ments, whose powera ought generally to extend to all subjects which would uot be given to the General Government. The system thus proposed would in no way diminish the importance of the colony nor impair its credit — Hon. Atty.Gen. MACDONALD—From what document ia my hon. friend reading ? Hon. Mr. DORION— I am translating from the document published by the Lower Canada liberals in 1859. It continues : — The propoaed system would in no way diminish the importance of - the colony, or impair the credit, while it presents the advantage of being susceptible, without any disturbance of the fed eral economy, of such territorial extention as cir cumstances may hereafter render desirable. Well, Sir, I have not a word of all this to take back. I still hold to the same views, the same opinions. I still think that a Federal union of Canada might hereafter extend so as to embrace other territories either west or east ; that such a system is well adapted to admit of territorial expan sion without any disturbance of the federal economy, but I cannot understand how this plain sentence should be considered by the Hon. President of the Council, or by other hon. members who have spoken in the other House, as any indication that I have ever been in favor of Confederation with the other British Provinces. There is nothing I have ever said or written that can be construed to mean that I was ever in favor of such a proposition. On the con trary, whenever the question came up I set my face against it. I asserted that such a confederation could only bring trouble and embarrassment, that there was no social, no commercial connection between the pro vinces proposed to bo united — nothing to justify their union at the present juncture. Of course I do not say that I shall be opposed to their Confederation for all time to come. Population may extend over the wilderness that now lies between the Mari time Provinces and ourselves, and commer cial intercourse may increase sufficiently to render Confederation desirable. My speeches have been paraded of late in all the ministerial papers — misconstrued, mis translated, falsified in every way — for the purpose of making tbe public believe that in former times I held different views from those I now do. A French paper has said that I called with all my heart for the Con federation of the provinces — {que j'appelais de tous mes vcenx la confederation des pro vinces') But I say here, as I said in 1856, and as I said in 186 1 also, that I am opposed to this Confederation now. In the Mirror of Par liament which contains a report, though a very bad one, of my speech in 1861, I find that I said on that occasion : — The time may come when it will be necessary to have a Confederation of all the provinces • * * * but the present time is not for such a scheme. This is the speech which has been held to signify that I wos anxious for Confedera tion, that I should like nothing better. Why ? _ I distinctly said that though the time might come wheu it would become necessary, it was not desirable under existing circumstances. (Hear, hear.) In 1862 I was not in Parliament; the Cartier-Mac donald Administration was dismissed, and my hon. friend, the member for Cornwall (Hon. John S. Macdonald), was caUed upon to form a new one. He applied to Mr. SicoTTE to form the Lower Canada section while he himself undertook the formation of the Upper Canada portion. The question of representation by population then necessarily came up for settlement— this time at the hands of the Liberal party who had voted for it year after year — and when I came down to Quebec, summoned by telegraph, I found the arrangements made, the poHcy of the new government was settled, representation by population was excluded. (Hear, hear.) The Liberal party from Upper Canada, sir, to my surprise, had decided that it was not to be taken up— that they were going into office just as the Conservative party had done before on a similar occasion in 1854; they decided that they would sustain an Adminis tration which made it a closed question, and whose members all pledged themselves to vote against it. (Hear, hear.) Mr. RANKIN— No, no. Hon. Mr. DORION— If not, I was mis informed. I certainly underatood that the Administration was formed qij the under- 249 standing that every member of it should vote against the question of representation by population whenever it came up, and that the Upper Canada party would support the Administration so formed. At any rate the Upper Canada Liberal party supported, for eleven months, a government pledged to ex clude representation by population from the category of open questions, and agreed to lay that question aside. Mr. McKENZIE (Lambton)— No, no. Hon. Mr. DORION — I hear an honorable gentleman say it was not so, that he did not agree to lay aside representation by popula tion then, but if he did not then has he not done so since ? He declared at a public meeting the other day that representation by population was no cure for the evils afflict ing Upper Canada. The members frcn Upper Canada who had joined the Mac donald-Sicotte Government had certainly abandoned representation by population, by entering into an Administration which bound every one of them to vote against it. The Hon. Provincial Secretary had stated pub licly in Ottawa, in January, 1864, that it had been abandoned by the Liberal party at the Toronto Convention in 1859 ; and although he had at the time been soundly abused for this by the Globe and by those of his party who look to the Globe as their political gos pel, he had now the satisfaction of seeing the hon. member for Lambton, and some others who formerly held very strong views on this question, acknowledge, as they had done at a public meeting held at Toronto about three weeks ago, that they also con sidered representation by population as ap plied to Canada no remedy for the Upper Province, and that it was not a measure the liberals ought to insist upon, and that it had been abandoned. (Hear, hear and laughter.) Yes, the question was in effect abandoned when in November, 1859, six hundred delegates from all parts of Upper Canada attended the Reform Convention at Toronto, and agreed to advocate a Confederation of the two Canadas, by giving to each province a local legislature, with some joint authority, to carry on the general business common to both. The hon. member on my left was present on the occasion — Hon. Mr. HOLTON— Yes I was. Hon. Mr. DORION— And the hon. mem ber has told me that he never saw a more respectable, a more educated, or more intelli gent assemblage brought together in such 33 numbers to discuss public questions. But that scheme did not attract much attention out of the Convention. It took no hold on the popular mind. Shortly before that, in 1858, the present Hon. Finance Minister, who then sat on the cross-benches, made a speech of two or three hours' duration, in which, with all that force and ability fbr which he is distinguished, he expounded and advocated the Confederation of the whole of the British North American Provinces. He was then assisted in its advocacy by the pre sent Hon. Minister of Agriculture ; and, subsequently, on becoming a member of the Cartier-Macdonald Administration, he went, to England and drew the attention of the Imperial authorities to the scheme of Confederation of all those provinces. The Hon. Finance Minister received an answer not very encouraging ; and that which he received from this country was still less en couraging. There was not even an answer to his speech, able though it certainly was — Hon. Mr. HOLTON— He never ven tured to propose any resolution to Parliament, Hon. Mr. DORION— Though the Ad ministration was formed with the understand ing of effecting the Confederation of all the provinces, and it was the main plank of their platform, they never dared to submit the question to Parliament at all. (Hear.) Subsequently, in 1861, the hon. member for South Oxford brought forward a motion based on the resolution at the Toronto Con vention. I spoke and voted for it. It was in perfect accord with a notice I had given in 1856, and whieh was read here by the Hon. President of the Council a few nights ago, and with my often-repeated declarations that I was willing to adopt some measure calcu lated to remove existing difficulties, without doing injustice to either section ; but while I was willing to do justice to Upper Canada, I always declared that I would not do so by sacrificing the interests of Lower Canada, or placing her in the position ,of having to beg for justice at tbe hands ofthe sister pro vince. (Hear, hear.) I always stated that the difference existing in the religious faith of the people of the two sections, in their language, in their laws, in their prejudices even — for there are prejudices which were re spectable and ought to be respected — would prevent any member from Lower Canada, representing a French constituency, from voting for representation by population, pure and simple, and thereby placing the people of 250 Lower Canada in the position of having to trust for the protection of their rights to the people of Upper Canada, who would thereby have the majority in the Legisla ture. (Hear.) There is at this moment a movement on the part of the British Pro testants in Lower Canada to have some protection and guarantee for their educa tional establishments in this province put into the scheme of Confederation, should it be adopted ; and far from finding fault with them, I respect them the mdre for their energy in seeking protection for their separate interests. I know that majorities are naturally aggressive and how the poaaes aion of power engenders dispotism, and I can understand how a majority, animated this moment by the best feelings, might in six or nine months be willing to abuse its power and trample on the rights of the minority, while acting in good faith, and on what it conaidered to be its right. We know also the ill feelings that might be engendered by such a course. I think it but just that the Protestant minority should be protected in its rights in everything that was dear to it as a dis tinct nationality, and should not lie at the discretion of the majority in this respect, and for this reason I am ready to extend to my Protestant fellow-citizens in Lower Canada of British origin, the fullest justice in aU things, and I wish to see their interests as a minority guaranteed and protected in every scheme which may be adopted. With these views on the question of representa tion, I pronounced in fivor of a Confedera tion of the two Provinces of Upper and Lower Canada, as the best means of pro tecting the varied interests of the two sec tions. But the Confederation I advocated was a real confederation, giving the largest powers to the local governments, and merely a delegated authority to the General Govern ment — in that respect differing in toto from the one now proposed which gives all the powers to the Central Government, and reserves for the local governments the smallest possible amount of freedom of action. There is nothing besides in what I have ever written or said that can be inter preted as favoring a Confederation of all the provinces. This I always opposed. There is no breach of confidence in my say ing that in the conversations I had with the Hon. President of the Council, previous to his accepting office, aince he has referred to them himself in a speech which he made when reelected at South Oxford, I posi tively declined to support any proposi tion for the Confederation of all the pro vinces. Very true, sir, I did not refuse to vote for it in committee. I did not vote at all — I was not present when the vote was taken, but I did not conceal my opposition to it. In that speech the Hon. President of the Council also said : — Before the negotiations wero gone through with, 1 warned the Hon. Messrs. Holton and Do rion to take action, bnt they refuaed me. (Hear, hear.) I felt all the pain of a refusal, but they left me no resource. When the question was asked me by the Government, I said I wanted six members — four from Upper and two from Lower Canada. When asked how many supporters I could bring from Lower Canada, I replied that since Hon. Mr. DoRioK did not act, I could bring no supporters. So, sir, I have the best evidence possible to repudiate the accusation that I was in favor of Confederation of all the provinces in the fact that, before there was any ques tion at all as to who should go into the Gov ernment, I stated — and that in the hearing of several honorable members now present — that I would have nothing to do with it be cause I did not conceive it would be for the interest of the country to have such a Con federation, at all events at the present time. (Hear.) Now, sir, I think I have shewn that I neither favored representation by population pure and simple, nor a Confeder ation of the provinces ; and when honorable gentlemen state that the necessity of settUng the question of representation is the origin of this Federation scheme, they labor under a grave misapprehension. There is nothing further from the fact. (Hear, hear.) The representation question was almost altogether abandoned — was played out; there was no agitation about it, and certainly less than there had been for the last ten years. The honorable member for South Oxford, after adopting the views of the Toronto Conven tion, still persisted in advocating representa tion by population, but so changed was the feeling that he could hardly get a debate on the motion he made last session for a com mittee to conaider the constitutional difficul ties. There was then another cause for this Confederation scheme of which representa tion by population was made the pretext. It is not so well known, but far more power ful. In the year 1861, Mr. Watkin was sent from England by the Grand Trunk 251 Railway Company, He came with the dis tinet view of making a large claim on the country for aid, but in the then temper of the people, he soon found that he could not expect to obtain that. Thinking that if he only could put some new scheme afloat which would give a decent pretext to a well disposed Government, he would quietly get the assist ance required, he Immediately started for the Lower Provinces, and came back after inducing people there to resuscitate the ques tion of the Intercolonial Railway. Parties were readily found to advocate it, if Canada would only pay the piper. (Hear, and a laugh.) A meeting of delegates took place, resolutions were adopted, and an application was made to the Imperial Government for a large contribution to its costs, in the shape of an indemnity for carrying the troops over the road. Mr. Watkin and Hon. Mr. Vankoughnet, who was then a member of the Government, went to England about tbis scheme, but the Imperial authorities were unwilling to grant the required assist ance, and rejected their propositions. Mr. Watkin, although baffled in his expectations, did not give up his project. He returned again to Canada, and by dint of perseverance, induced my honorable friend on my right (Hon. J. S. Macdonald) and other honor able members of his Cabinet to enter into his views. As to the advantages of the Inter colonial Railway, I have not the slightest idea that my hon. friend had any suspicion whatsoever of the motives which animated these Grand Trunk officials, and that their object was to have another haul at the public purse for the Grand Trunk — (laughter) — but this was the origin of the revival of the scheme for constructing the Intercolonial Railway. Hon. j. S. MACDONALD— We found the project then left to us as a legacy by the Cartier-Macdonald Administration . Hon. Mr. DORION— So it was. The Maodonald-Sicotte Government found the matter so far advanced that an arrangement had been made for a meeting of delegates of the several provinces to consider again this railway scheme, the other project having failed. At this meeting of delegates, which took place in September, 1862, a new scheme for building the Intercolonial was adopted, by which Canada was to pay five-twelfths and the Lower Provinces seven-twelfths. So unpopular was this arrangement that when its terms were made known, if a vote of the people had been taken upon it, not ten out of every hundred, from Sandwich to Gasp6, would have declared in iis favor, although Canada was only to pay five-twelfths of its cost. (Hear, hear.) This project having fail ed, some other scheme had to be concocted for bringing aid and relief to the unfortunate Grand Trunk — and the Confederation of all the British North American Provinces naturally suggested itself to the Grand Trunk officials as the surest means of bring ing with it the construction of the Inter colonial Railway. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) Such was the origin of this Confederation scheme. The Grand Trunk people aro at the bottom of it; and I find that at the last meeting of the Grand Trunk Railway Company, Mr. Watkin did in advance congratulate the shareholders and bond holders on the bright prospects opening before them, by the enhanced value which will be given to their shares and bonds, by the adoption of the Confederation scheme and the construction of the Intercolonial as part of the scheme. (Hear, hear.) I re peat, sir, that representation by population had very little to do with bringing about this measure. The Tach:6-Maodonald Government were defeated because the House condemned them for taking without author ity $100,000 out of the public chest for the Grand Trunk Railway, at a time when there had not been a party vote on representa tion by population for one or two sessions. Those who had been the loudest in their advocacy of it, had let it drop. I was track ed through Lower Canada as being willing to sell Lower Canada, grant representation by population, and destroy Lower Canadian institutions. I thank God, sir, I never in sulted Upper Canada, like some of those who reviled me. I never compared the people of Upper Canada to so many codfish. I shewed on the contrary that I was always willing to meet the just claims of Upper Canada. (Hear, hear.) Well, without any demand whatever for the agitation of this question, the moment the Government was defeated and there was a necessity for resign ing or going before the people, these gentle men opposite prepared to embrace their greatest opponents and said to themselves, " We will make everything smooth, we will forget past difficulties, provided we can but keep our seats." Hon. Atty. Gen. MACDONALD— (ir onically) — Hear, hear. 252 Hon. Mr. DORION— I hear a voice, sir, which is well known in this House, the voice of the Attorney General West, saying "hear, hear." But what was the course of that hon. gentleman last year, when the hon. member for South Oxford had a committee appointed to whom was referred the despatch written by his three colleai,;ues, the Minister of Fi nance, the Attorney General East and the Hon.Mr. Ross, who is now no longer a minis ter. He voted against the appointment of the committee, and, after it was named, as a member of it, he voted against the prin- ciph of Confederation. (Hear, hear.) Hon. Atty. Gen. MACDONALD— Hear, hear. Hon. Mr. DORION— The last vote taken in that committee was about the middle of June, the very day of the crisis, and the hon. gentleman voted against the principle of Confederation of all tho provinces, in accordance with the opinions he again and again expressed in this House, as being opposed to all Confederation whatever. (Hear.) When I state that these gentlemen only found out that Confederation was a panacea for all evils, a remedy for all ills, when their seats as ministers were in danger, I come to this conclusion quite legitimately, from facts wbich are well known to this House. (Hear, hear.) But, sir, it would probably be of very little moment whether I was formerly in favor of Confederation or against it, or whether the Hon. Attorney General West was in favor of Confederation or opposed to it, if the scheme proposed to us were an equitable one, or one calculated to meet tbe wishes of the people of this country ; but, as I said a minute ago, the scheme was not called for by any consider able proportion of the population. It is not laid before the House as one which was demanded by any number of the people ; it is not brought down in response to any call from the people ; it is a device of men who are in difficulties, for the purpose of getting out of them. (Hear, hear.) The members of the Tach^-Macdonald Government could not appeal to the country after their defeat upon the question, whether they were justified in taking $100,000 outof the pub lic chest, in addition to the millions they had previously taken, without the consent of Parliament ; so, having either to give up their seats or evade that particular issue, they abandoned all their previous opinions, and joined the hon. member for South Oxford in carrying out this Confederation scheme. (Hear.) I come now to another point, viz., is the scheme presented to us the same one that was promised to us by the Adminis tration when it was formed ? This, sir, might be but of sUght importance if the manner in which this proposed Constitution was framed had not a most unfortunate bear ing on the scheme itself; but it is a grave matter, since the scheme is so objectionable, especially as we are gravely told that it can not be amended in the least, but that it is brought down as a compact made between the Government of this country and delegates from the governments of Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, Newfoundland, and Prince Ed ward Island — as a treaty which cannot be altered or amended in any particular. (Hear.) The plain meaning of this is, sir, that the Lower Pi evinces have made out a Constitution for us and we are to adopt it. This fact will appear the moie clearly when it is considered, as was pointed out much to my surprise, by the hon. member for Hast ings (Mr. T. C. WALLBRibOE), that in the Conference the vote was taken by provinces, putting Upper and Lower Canada, with nearly 2,500,000 people, on no higher level than Prince Edward Island, with its 80,000 — on the same level with New Brunswick, with its 250,000 — on the same level as Nova Scotia, with its 330,000. Hon. Atty. Gen. MACDONALD— That is entirely a mistake. Hon. Mr. DORION— It was admitted by the Honorable the President of the Council the other evening. Hon. Atty. Gen. MACDONALD— l^o, no ! Hon. Mr. DORION — It was the champion of representation by population who made the statement. He it was that went to Prince Edward Island and asked it to frame a Con stitution for this country. (Hear and laughter.) In order to shew, Mr. Speaker, that I am not mistaken in what I state, that this scheme is not the one which it was announced in the formation of this Administration was to be brought down — iu order to prove, indeed, that it was then determined not to bring down such a measure, — I wiU cite a declaration made by members of the Govemment as to the negotiations which took place at'its formation. I will read from the Quebec Morning Chronicle of June 23rd :— The Hon. Atty. Gen. Macoonald, in explain ing the negoti.itions, read the following memor andum : 253 Memorandum — Confidential. The Government are prepared to atate that im mediately after the prorogation, they wiU addreaa themaelvea, in the moat eamest manner to the ne gotiation for a Confederation of all the Britiah North American Provincea. That failing a successful issue to such negoti ations, they are prepared to pledge themselves to legislation during the next Seaaion of Parliament for the purpose of remedying the existing difficul tiea by introducing the Federal principle for Canada alone, coupled with auch proviaions aa will permit the Maritime Provinces and the North- Western Territory to he hereafter incorporated into the Canadian ayatem. That for the purpoae of carrying on the nego- tiationa and aettling the detaila of th'j promiaed legislation, a Royal Commiaaion shall be iaaued, compoaed of three members of the Government and three members of the Oppoaition, of whom Mr. Beown shall be one, and the Government pledge themaelvea to give all the influence of the ^Adminiatration to aecure to the said Commission the meana of advancing the great object iu view. This was the first memorandum communi cated to the member for South Oxford, but that hon. member did not accept of it. This memorandum proposed the scheme which is now brought to the Houae, and I repeat, that scheme was not accepted by the honorable member for South Oxford, but an under standing was come to, which is to be found in the next memorandum, which was com municated to the House in these terms : — The Government are prepared to pledge them aelvea to bring in a meaaure next aeasion for the purpoae of removing existing difficulties, by in troducing the Federal principle into Canada, coupled with auch proviaiona aa will permit the Maritime Provincea and the North-Weat Terri tory to be incorporated into the same system of government. And the Govemment will aeek, by sending repreaentativea to the Lower Provinces and to England, to secure the aaaent of thoae intereata which are beyond the control of our own legiala- tion to auch a raeasure aa will enable all British North America to be united under a General Legialature baaed upon the Federal syatem. There ia a vast difference, Mr. Speaker, be tween these two propositions. The first was that the Govemment would pledge themselves to seek a Confederation of the British Ameri can Provinces, and if they failed in that to Federate the two Canadas, and this was reject ed ; the second, which waa accepted by the President of the Council, pledged the Govem ment to bring in a measure for the Confeder ation of the two Canadas,, with provision for the admission of the other provinces when they thought proper to enter. Hon. Atty. Gen. MACDONALD— When they were ready. Hon. Atty. Gen. CARTIER-Everything is accomplished. Hon. Mr. DORION— But, sir, I may be asked, granting all this, granting that the scheme brought down is not the scheme pro mised to us, what difference our bringing in the provinces at once can make ? This I wiU endeavor to explain. When they went into the Conference, honorable gentlemen opposite submitted to have the votes taken by provinces. WeU, they have now brought us in, as was natural under the circumstances, the most conservative measure ever laid before a Parliament. The members of the Upper House are no longer to be elected, but nomin ated, and nominated by whom ? By a Tory or Conservative Government for Canada, by a Conservative Govemment in Nova Scotia, by a Conservative Government in Prince Ed ward Island, by a Conservative Govemment in Newfoundland, the only Liberal Govem ment concemed in the nomination being that which ia controUed by the Liberal party in New Brunswick, whose fate depends on the result of the elections that are now going on in that province. Such a scheme would never have been adopted if submitted to the liberal peo ple of Upper Canada. When the Govem ment went into that Conference they were bound by the majority, especially since they voted by provinces, and the 1,400,000 of Up per Canada with the 1,100,000 of Lower Canada — together 2,500,000 people — were over-ridden by 900,000 people of the Mari time Provinces. Were we not expressly told that it was the Lower Provinces who would not hear ofour having an elective Legislative Coun cil ? If, instead of going into Conference with the people of the Lower Provinces, our Gov ernment had done what they pledged them selves to do, that is, to prepare a Constitution themselves, they would never have dared to bring in such a proposition as this which is now imposed upon us by the Lower Colonies — to have a Legislative Council, with a fixed number of members, nominated by four Tory governments. Wby, taking the average time eaeh councillor will be in the Council to be fifteen to twenty years, it will take a century before its complexion can be changed. For all time to come, so far as this generation and the next are concerned, you wUl find the Legislative Council controlled by the influ ence of the present Govemment, And is it 254 to be believed that, as promised in the docu ment we are considering, such a Government as we have " will take care of the Opposition, or consider their right to be represented in the Council?" (Hear, and laughter.) Sir, I thank the delegates for their kind solicitude for the Opposition, but I do not believe they wiU do anything of the kind. Have we not heard the Honorable Attomey General West, a few nights ago, state, turning to his follow ers, " If I wero to ad-vise the nomination, I should advise the selection of the best men I could find — and of course of my own party ?" (Hear.) So it will be, sir ; and, if this pre cious scheme is carried, we shall have a Legis lative Council di-yided in the foUowing pro portion : — For Upper Canada, we should pro bably have liberals in the proportion of three to nine ; for I suppose the honorable member for South Oxford has made sacrifices enough to deserve at least that consideration, and, as his friends compose one-fourth of the Execu tive Council, I dare say we should get one- fourth of the Upper Canada Legislative Councillors liberal too. Hon. Atty. Gen. MACDONALD— Hear, hear. Hon. Mr. HOLTON— Just 25 per cent. Hon. Mr. DORION— Just 25 per cent, of liberals for Upper Canada. Then, in addi tion, we should get from Nova Scotia ten conservatives, from Prince Edward Island four more, and four from Newfoundland. Thus we shall have eighteen conservatives from the Lower Provinces, which, added to thirty-six from Canada, would make fifty-four conservatives against twenty-two liberals, taking the ten New Brunswick councillors to be all liberals. Now, supposing three per cent, as the average number of deaths per aanuni — the average proportion of change — it would take nearly thirty years to bring about a change in the character of a majority of the CouncU, even supposing aU the addi tions made to it to be from the liberal ranks. But, sir, that will hardly be the case. In some of the Lower Provinces there will be Conservative govemments now and then, and there may occasionally be conservative gov ernments in Canada. (Hear, and laughter.) So this generation will certainly pass away before the views of the Liberal party will ever find expression in the decisions of the Upper House. iMr. MACKENZIE (Lambton)— That makes no difference, as between the tAVO mea sures. Hon. Mr. DORION — The honorable member for Lambton says that makes no dif ference. It makes just the difference that we are to be bound by the scheme or by a Constitution enabling the Council to stop all measures of reform, such as would be desired by the Liberal party ; if the hon orable member for Lambton thinks that makes no difference, I beg to differ from him, and I believe the Liberal party generally will. The Govemment say they had to in troduce certain provisions, not to please them selves, but to please the provinces below, and they have pledged themselves to those pro-vinces that this House will carry out the scheme without amendment. Does not the honorable member see the difference now ? If the two Canadas were alone interested, the majority would have its own way — would look into the Constitution closely — would scan its every doubtful pro-rision, and such a proposal as this about the Legislative Council would have no chance of being carried, for it is not very long since the House, by an overwhelm ing majority, voted for the substitution of an elected for a nominated Upper Chamber. In fact, the nominated Chamber had fallen so low in public estimation — I do not say it was from the fault of the men who were there, but the fact is, nevertheless, as I state it — that it commanded no influence. There was even a difficulty in getting a quorum of it together. So a change became absolutely necessary, and up to the present moment the new system has worked well; the elected members are equal in every respect to the nominated ones, and it is just when we see an interest beginning to be felt in the proceed ings ofthe Upper House that its Constitution is to be changed, to return back again to the one so recently condemned. Back again, did I say ? No, sir, a Constitution is to be substi tuted, much worse than the old one, and such as is nowhere else to be found. Why, even the British House of Lords, conservative as it is, is altogether beyond the influence of tho popular sentiment of the country. Their number may be increased on the recommen dation of the responsible advisers of the Crown, if required to secure united action or to prevent a conflict between the two Houses. From the position its members occupy, it is a sort of compromise between the popular ele ment and the influence or control of the Crown. But the new House for the Confed eration is to be a perfectly independent body — these gentlemen are to be named for life — and there is to be no power to increase their number. How long wiU the system work without producing a colliaioii between the 255 two branches of the Legislature ? Suppose the Lower House turns out to be chiefly Liberal, how long -will it submit to the Upper House, named by Conservative administrations which have taken advantage of their temporary nu merical strength to bring about such a change as is now proposed ? Remember, sir, that, rf- ter aU, the power, the influence of the popular branch of the Legislature is paramount. We have seen constitutions like that of England adopted in many countries, and where there ex isted a nobility, such as in France in 1830, the second chamber was selected from this nobiUty. In Belgium, where the Constitu tion is almost a facsimile of that of Eng land, but where there are no aristocracy, they adopted the elective principle for the Upper House, and no where in the world is there a fixed number for it, unless it is also elective. It must be fresh in the memory of a great many members of this House how long the House of Lords resisted the popular demand for reform, and great difficulties were threat ened. At last in 1832 the agitation had become so great that the Govemment de termined to nominate a sufficient number of peers to secure the passage of the Reform Bill. The members of the House had to choose between allowing the measure to be come law, or see their influence 'destroyed by the addition of an indefinite number of mem bers. They preferred the first alternative, and thereby quieted an excitement, which if not checked in time, might have created a revo lution in JiUgland. The influence of the Crown was then exerted in accordance with the views of the people ; but here we are to have no such power existing to check the ac tion of our Upper Chamber, and no change can be made in its composition except as death might slowly remove its members. I venture to prophesy, sir, that before a very short time has elapsed a dead-lock may arise, and such an excitement be created as has never yet been seen in this country. (Hear, hear.) Now, if this Constitution had been framed by the members of our Government, we could change some of its provisions — this provision would most certainly be altered — there is not a man in the Liberal ranks who dare vote for such a proposition as this, that could go before his constituents and say, " I have taken away the influence and control of the people over the Upper Chamber, and I have created an entirely independent body, to be chosen by the present governments of the several provinces." But no, the Constitution is in the nature of a compact, a treaty, and cannot be changed. (Hear.) But, sir, the composition of the Legislative Council be comes of more importance when we consider that the govemors of the local legislatures are to be appointed by the General Govern ment, as well as the Legislative Council ; their appointment is to be for five years, and they are not to be removed without cause. I will venture upon another prediction and say we shall find there will be no such thing as responsible govemment attached to the local legislatures. Mr. DUNKIN— There cannot be. Hon. Mr. DORION— There wUl be two, three, or four ministers^chosen by the lieute nant-governors and who will conduct the ad ministration of the country, as was formerly done in the times of Sir Francis Bond Head, Sir John Colborn, or Sir James Craig. You will have governments, the chief executives of which will be appointed and hold office at the will of the Governor. If that is not to be the case, why do not honorable gentlemen lay their scheme before us? (Hear.) Is this House, sir, going to vote a Constitution with the Upper House as proposed, without knowing what sort of local legislatures we are to have to govern us ? Suppose, after we have adopt ed the main scheme, the Government come down with a plan for settling the local legisla tures upon which great differences of opinion will arise, may it not happen then that the majority from Lower Canada wUl unite with a minority from Upper Canada and impose upon that section a local Constitution distasteful to a large majority of the people of Upper Canada. The whole scheme, sir, is absurd from begin ning to end. It is but natural that gentlemen with the views of honorable gentlemen oppo^ site want to keep as much power as possible in the hands of the Govemment — that is the doctrine of the Conservative party everywhere — that is the line which distinguishes the tories from the whigs — the tories always side with the Crown, and the liberals always want to give more power and influence to the people. The instincts of honorable gentlemen opposite, whether you take the Hon. Attorney General East or the Hon. Attomey General West, lead them to this — they think the hands of the Crown should be strengthened and the influence of the people, if possible, diminish ed — and this Constitution is a specimen of their handiwork, with a Governor-General appointed by the Crown ; with local ^ govern ors also, appointed by the Crown ; with legis lative councils, in the General Legislature, and in aU the provinces, nominated by the 256 Crown ; we shall have the most illiberal Con stitution ever heard of in any country where constitutional government prevails. (Hear.) The Speaker of the Legislative CouncU is also to be appointed by the Crown, this is another step backwards, and a little piece of patronage for the Government. We have heard in a speech lately delivered in Prince Edward Island or New Brunswick, I forget which, of the aUurements offered to the dele gates while here in the shape of prospective appointments as judges of the Court of Appeal, Speaker of the Legislative Council, and local governors — (hear, hear) — as one of the rea sons assigned for the great unanimity whioh prevailed in the Conference. Hon. Mr. HOLTON— They wiU divide aU these nice things amongst them. (Laugh ter.) Hon. Mr. DORION — I do not accuse honorable gentlemen of holding out these in ducements, I only mention the fact from a speech I have read on the subject. Hon. Mr. HOLTON— It was a speech of one of the delegates. (Hear, hear.) Hon. Mr. DORION — I now come to an other point. It is said that this Confedera tion is necessary for the purpose of providing a better mode of defence for this country. There may be people who think that by add ing two and two together you make five. I am not of that opinion, I cannot see how by adding the 700,000 or 800,000 people, the inhabitants of the Lower Provinces, to the 2,500,000 inhabitants of Canada, you can multiply them so as to make a much larger force to defend the country than you have at present. Of course the connection with the British Empire is the link of com munication by which the whole force of the Empire can be brought together for defence. (Hear, hear.) But the position of this coun try under the proposed scheme is very evident. You add to the frontier four or five hundred more miles than you now have, and an extent of country immeasurably greater in pro portion than the additional population you have gained ; and if there is an advantage at all for the defence of the country, it will be on the part of the Lower Provinces and not for us. And as we find that we are about to enter into a very large expendi ture for this purpose of defence — this having been formally announced in a speech deliv ered by the President of the Council at To ronto — and as Canada is to contribute to that expenditure to the extent of ten-twelfths of the whole, the other provinces paying only two-twelfths, it foUows that Canada wUl pay ten-twelfths also of the cost of defence, which, to defend the largely extended country we will have to defend, wiU be much larger than if we remained alone. I find in the speech delivered by the President of the Council on that occasion, this statement : — I cannot conclude without referring to some other things which have received the grave atten tion of the Conference. And the first point to which I deaire to call attention is the fact that the delegates have unanimously resolved that the united provincea shall be placed at the earliest moment in a thorough state of. defence. The attacks which have been made upon us have cre ated the impression that these provinces are in a weak and feeble atate ; if, then, we would do away with thia false impression and place our selves on a firm and secure footing in the eyea of the world, our course must he to put our country in such a poaition of defence that we may fear lessly look our enemies in the face. It is a pleasure to me to state, aud I am sure it must be a pleasure to all present to be informed, that the Conference at Quebec did not separate before entering hi to a pledge to put the military and naval defences of the united provinces in a most complete and satisfactory condition. Hon. Mr. HOLTON— Where is that re solution ? (Hear, hear.) Hon. Mr. DORION — It appears then that our course is to put " the military and naval defences " into " a most complete and satis factory condition." Now I find that, accord ing to these resolutions, the General Govem ment is to have control of "the military and naval defences," but, of course, the cost of them is not stated. This I contend, then, that if the mUitary and naval defences of all the provinces are to be provided for by the General Govemment, and if you have to in crease the militia for this purpose, the Lower Provinces wUl pay only their proportion of two-twelfths, and Canada, while obtaining no greater defensive force than at present, wiU have to pay five times as much as we are now paying. (Hear, hear.) Why, sir, take the line dividing New Brunswick from Maine and you find it separates on the one side 250,000, thinly scattered over a vast territory, from 750,000 on the other, compact and powerful. These 250,000 Canada will have to defend, and it will have to pledge its resources for the purpose of pro-viding means of defence along that extended line. (Hear, hear.) And, if rumor be true, the Intercolonial Railway, this so-caUed great defensive work, is not to pass along Major Robinson's line. The statement has been made — I have seen it in newspapers usually well informed — that a uew ijoutie l;^as 257 been found that will satisfy everybody or nobody at all ; and while I am on this point I must say that it is most singular that we are called upon to vote these resolutions, and to pledge ourselves to pay ten-twelfths of the cost of that railway, without knowing whether there wUl be ten miles or one hundred miles of it in Lower Canada, or whether it wUl cost $10,000,000 or $20,000,000. Hon. Mr. HOLTON— It wiU be nearer $40,000,000. (Hear, hear.) Hon. Mr. DORION— In 1862, when the question of the construction of this road was before the country, what was the cry raised by honorable gentlemen opposite ? Why, that the Macdonald-Sicotte Govemment had pledged itself to buUd a railway at whatever cost it might come to ; and those who were loudest in these denunciations, were the very gentlemen who have now undertaken to build the road without knowing or even enquiring what the cost of it wiU be. (Hear, hear.) Thia, if I remember right, was the purport of a speech made by the Hon. Attorney General West at Otterville. (Hear, hear.j I was aatisfied, sir, at that time, to press my objec tions to the scheme and retire from the Government ; but my colleagues were de nounced without stint for having undertaken to buUd the railway and pay seven-twelfths of its cost, and now the House is asked by the very men who denounced them to pay ten- twelfths of it, without even knowing whether the work is practicable or not. (Hear, hear.) We have heard for some time past that the engineer, Mr. Fleming, is prepared to make his report. Why is it not forthcoming ? — why has it been kept back ? The represen tatives of the people in this House will show an utter disregard of their duty if they do not insist upon having that report, and fuU explanations respecting the undertaking, as weU as the scheme for the constitution of the local govemments, before they vote upon the resolutions before the House. (Hear, hear.) It is folly to suppose that this Intercolonial Railway will in the least degree be con ducive to the defence of the country. We have expended a large sum of money — and none voted it more cordially and heartily than myself — for the purpose of opening a miU tary highway from Gasp6 to Rimouski ; and that road, in case of hostilities with our neighbors, would be found of far greater ser vice for the transport of troops, cannon and all kinds of munitions of war, than any rail way following the same or a more southem 34 route possibly can be. That road cannot be effectually destroyed ; but a railway lying in some places not more than fifteen or twenty miles from the frontier, will be of no use whatever, because of the readiness with which it may be attacked and seized. An enemy could destroy miles of it before it would be possible to resist him, and in time of difficulty it would be a mere trap for the troops passing along it, unless we had almost an army to keep it open. Upon this question of defence, we have heird so much during the past two or three years that I think it is time now we should have some plain explanations about it. We heard the other day from the honor able member for West Montreal — and I am always glad to quote him, he is usuaUy so correc1>— (laughter"* — that in less than a year the American army, the army of the North ern States, was increased from 9,000 to 800,- 000 men ready for service, and that in less than four years they were able to put to sea a fieet which, in point of numbers — I do not say in armament or value — was equal to the entire naval force of England. Well, the honorable gentleman might have gone further and shown that within a period of four years the Northern States have called into the field 2,300,000 men — as many armed men as we have men, women and children in the two Canadas — and that we hear every day of more being raised and equipped. It is stated that, in view of these facts, it is incumbent upon us to place ourselves in a state of defence. Sir, I say it here candidly and honestly, that we are bound to do everything we can to pro tect the country — (hear, hear,) — but we are not bound to ruin ourselves in anticipation of a supposed invasion which we could not repel, even with the assistance of England. The battles of Canada cannot be fought on the frontier, but on the high seas and at tbe great cities on the Atlantic coast ; and it wUl be nothing but folly for us to cripple ourselves by spending fifteen or twenty millions a year to raise an army of 50,000 men for the purpose of resisting an invasion of the country. The best thing that Canada can do is to keep quiet, and to give no cause for war. (Hear, hear.) Let the public opinion of this country compel the press to cease the attacks it is every day making upon the Government and people of the United States ; and then if war does come between England and the States — even if from no fault of ours — we will cast our lot with England and help her to fight the battle ; but in the meantime it is no use what- 258 ever to raise or keep up anything like a stand ing army. Hon. Atty. Gen. MACDONALD-- WiU my honorable friend let me ask him how we can assist England in a war on the high seas un less we have a naval force ? Hon. Mr. DORION— The honorable mem ber for Peterborough stated the other day, and correctly I believe, that the place for our mili tia was behind the fortifications of our forti fied places, where they would count for some thing to be of some use. No doubt of this. Why, sir, it is absurd to speak of defending this country with such a force as we could maintain when we have the recent example before our eyes of a country in Europe pos sessing as large a defensive force, literally wiped off the map by an invading army of some 75,000 or 80,000 men. The kingdom of Denmark consists now of only two small islands — less by far, in extent, than one of our large counties; and this dismemberment has been forced upon it, although it had a standing army of 30,000 men, and the feel ing of the whole population was in favor of the war. (Hear, hear.) I do not use this argument for the purpose of showing that something ought not to be done respecting our militia. I am willing that we should make sacrifices, if necessary, for the purpose of or ganizing it thoroughly ; but I am decidedly opposed to a standing army, and do not believe we could raise an army now that would be able to withstand the force that could be sent against it. (Hear, hear.) We bave sent to the frontier 2,000 men, whose services for a year wiU cost us a million and a-half ; and at the same rate of expenditure, 50,000 men would cost us over thirty millions of money. Now, if the whole defence of the country is to rest upon us, I ask again what would such a force amount to ? (Hear, hear.) Now, sir, when I look into the provisions of this scheme, I find another most objectionable one. It is that which gives tbe General Govemment control over all the acts of the local legislatures. What difficulties may not arise under this system ? Now, knowing that tbe General Government will be party in its character, may it not for party purposes reject laws passed by the local legislatures and demanded by a majority of the people of that locality. Tbis power conferred upon the General Government has been compared to the veto power that exists in England in respect to our legislation ; but we know that the statesmen of England are not actuated by the local feelings and prejudices, and do not partake of the local jealousies, that prevail in the colonies. The local governments have therefore confidence in them, and respect for their decisions; and generally, when a law adopted by a colonial legislature is sent to them, if it does not clash with the policy of the Empire at largo, it is not disallowed, and more especially of late has it been the policy of the Imperial Govemment to do whatever the colonies de sire in this respect, when their wishes are constitutionally expressed. The axiom on which they seem to act is that the less they hear of the colonies the better. (Hear, hear.) But how different wiU be. tbe result in this case, when the General Government exercises the veto power over the acts of local legisla tures. Do you not see that it is, quite possible for a majority in a local government to be opposed to the General Government; and in such a case the minority would call upon the General Govemment to disallow the laws en acted by tbe majority ? The men who sball compose the General Government will be de pendent for their support upon their political friends in the locid legislatures, and it may so happen that, in order to secure this support, or in order to serve their own purposes or that of their supporters, they will veto laws which the majority of a local legislature find necessary and good. (Hear, hear ) We know how high party feeling runs sometimes upon local matters even of trivial importance, and we may find parties so hotly opposed to each other in the local legislatures, that the whole power of tbe minority may be brought to bear upon their friends who have a ma jority in the General Legislature, for the pur pose of preventing the passage of some law objectionable to them but desired by the ma jority of their own section. What will be the result of such a state of things but bit terness of feeling, strong political acrimony and dangerous agitation ? (Hear, hear.) Then sir, I find that in addition to aU the other sums that are to be paid by .the general to the local governments, there are provisions in favor of New Brunswick and Nova Sco tia, which must strike the House as being of a rather extraordinary nature. In the document which was sent by the Provincial Secretary to the members of this House marked "Private," there appears to have been a mistake. It was therein stated that the General Government would have no right to impose an export duty on timber, logs, masts spars, deals and sawn lumber ; but that the local govemmentB would have the power «59 to impose export duties on these articles. This provision, it seems, was too favorable to Lower Canada ; for it would have allowed Lower Car.ada to impose an export duty upon Upper Canadian timber. Hon. Mr. HOLTON— As New Brunswick does upon American. Hon. Mr. DORION— And by this means raise a sufficient revenue, at the expense of Upper Canada, to meet its local expenditure. This mistake seems to have been corrected, for, in this respect, the resolutions before the House have been changed, but hardly amended. Hon. Mr. HOLTON— Changed in a sense hostile to Lower Canada. (Hear.) Hon. Mr. DORION— The clause of the resolutions to which I refer now reads, that the General Parliament Shall have power to make laws " respecting the imposition or regu lation of duties of customs on imports and exports — except on exports of timber, logs, masts, spars, deals and sawn lumber from New Brunswick, and of coal and other min erals from Nova Scctia." That is, the Gen eral Government may impose a tax for its own benefit upon all timber and minerals ex ported from Upper or Lower Canada, but not from New Brunswick or Nova Scotia. (Hear, hear.) Then, among the powers granted to local legislatures, we find the power to pass by-laws imposing direct taxation. (Hear, bear.) That is the first power they have, and I have no doubt that, before many months have passed after they are consti tuted, they wfll find it necessary to resort to it. But, in addition to this, I find that New Brunswick and Nova Scotia, which, no doubt, are the favored children of the Confed eration, have powers not granted to the other provinces. New Bmnswick, the resolution declares, .shall have the power to impose an export duty on timber, logs, masts, spars, deals and sawn lumber, and Nova Scotia on coal and other minerals, for local^ purposes ; so that -while our timber and minerals export ed from Upper and Lower Canada will be taxed by the General Government for general purposes, the timber and minerals of New Brunswick and Nova Scotia will be exempt, the revenue derived from them going to the benefit of the local governments, to be ex pended on local objects. (Hear, hear.) This is one of the results of the Conference in which, of course. New Brunswick counted as much as Upper and Lower Canada, and Nova Scotia and the other Lower Provinces had the balance of influence. (Hear, hear.) Now, among the other powers granted to the General Government is its control over agri culture and immigration, as well as the fish eries. An honorable member from Upper Canada (Mr. Mackenzie of Lambton), en quired very anxiously, yesterday, if it was possible that any act respecting agriculture could be affected by the General Govemment ? Well, sir, it is as plain as can be that agri culture and immigration are to be under tbe control of both the local and the general le gislatures. And the forty-fifth resolution says : — " In regard to all subjects over which jurisdiction belongs to the general and local legislatures, the laws of the General Parlia ment shall control and supersede those made by the Local Legislature, and the latter shall be void so far as they are repugnant to or incon sistent with the former." What will be the operation of this provision ? The Local Legis lature wiU pass a law which will then go to the General Government ; the latter will put its veto upon it, and if that does not answer, it will pass a law contrary to it, and you have at once a confiict. (Hear, hear.) Hon. Mr. HOLTON— Then they wiU fight. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) No sec tional difficulties then ! Hon. Mr. DORION— Oh! none what ever. I may pass now perhaps to the consid eration of a portion of the financial part of tbe scheme. I shall certainly not attempt to foUow the Hon. Finance Minister in what I admit was the able statement, or rather able mani pulation of figures, he made the other day. When that honorable gentleman was able to prove to the satisfaction of the Barings, the Glyns, and the leading merchants of England that the investment they would make in the Grand Trunk Railway would yield them at least 11 per cent., it is not astonishing, that he was able to show to this House that the finan ces of the Confederation will be in a most flourishing condition, and that we shall have a surplus every year of at least a million dollars. (Laughter.) From what I knew of former prophecies, 1 imagined he would make it eleven or twelve millions at any rate, but he is mo dest and puts it down at only a miUion. But how does he make out even this moderate sur plus ? He takes, in the first place, the re venue of Newfoundland for 1862. I had the curiosity to look for the reason, and what do you suppose it is ? The revenue for 1862 was the highest he could find, except 1860. (Hear, hear.) Then he takes the revenue of New Brunswick, Nova Scotia and Canada, for 1863 — the highest figures again. (Hear, hear.) Taking all this, he stiU finds a de- 260 ficiency of $827,512, which he provides for by adding a supposed increase for 1864 of $100,000 for each of' the Provinces of Nova Scotia and New Brunswick, and of $1,500,000 for Canada. (Hear, hear.) And this leaves a surplus of just $872,488. (Hear, hear.) Well, even granting that on the 31st of De cember he had a surplus of a million, if at the end of the present financial year it is not dimi nished to half a million by his militia and other expenditure, I shall be very agreeably aurpriaed. (Hear.) This, then, is the in ducement he offers to the country to adopt thia scheme. I have a million more than I want, he exclaims, and I will reduce the du ties to 15 per cent. But the honorable gen tleman forgets tbat he has the Intercolonial Railway to pro-vide for, as well as that military and naval defensive force wbich we are going to raise. (Hear, hear.) He forgets all this, but the promise is there; and just as he held out to the expected shareholders of the Grand Trunk Railway the 11 per cent, divi dends upon their investments, he now tells the people of these several colonies that the customs duties will be reduced to 15 percent. (Hear, hear.) I do not desire to go over the figures the honorable gentleman has laid before the House, for I have not the talent of group ing them together, so as to present an attrac tive, but deceptive, whole, that he possesses in such an eminent degree. I find in the resolutions now proposed a few propositions to which I would call the attention of the House. The first thing that the Confed eration will have to pro-vide for is the Inter colonial Railway, which will cei tainly cost twenty millions of doUars, the interest upon which, at 5 per cent., will amount to one million of dollars annually. (Hear, hear.) Then to Newfoundland we are bound to pay $150,000 a year, for all time to come, to purchase the mineral lands of tbat colony ; while, as regards the other provinces, all the public lands are given up to the local govern ments. But that is not all, for, in order to manage these " valuable lands" in Newfound land, we shall have to establish a Crown Lands department under the General Gov ernment ; and if honorable gentlemen desire to learn something of the probable expense of such an establishment, they need only refer to a return brought down last night, by which they will see that there are no less than sixty OB seventy officers in the Crown Lands de partment, and that some eight or ten new appointments have been made since Marcb last, when the present Government was formed. (Hear, hear.) This retum is a highly in structive one in other respects. It shows that within that period there is not a depart ment of the Government that has not increased its force of employes, except that of the Attorney General East, who is satisfied with the three officers it contained before he re turned to the Govemment. (Hear, hear.) I may state, however, that in the return there is an omission which ought to be sup plied. The honorable gentleman has made a large number of appointments connected with the administration of justice in Lower Canada that are not mentioned. This return is, how ever, instructive as showing tbe additional number of appointments that have been made within the past year in all the departments — several of whom have been taken from their seats in this House and appointed to offices to make room for others here. Hon. Mr. HOLTON— Oh ! there are only four of them — that's all. (Laughter.) Hon. Mr. DORION— Then New Brans wick is to get a special subsidy of $63,000 a year for ten years. It is evident this sum is voted to that pro-vince to enable it to avoid the necessity of direct taxation. Hon. Mr. HOLTON— Of course it could not impose direct taxation, for it has no mu nicipal machinery. ("Laughter.) Hon. Mr. DORION— Now, I find from a speech delivered by Hon. Mr. Tilley, the head of the New Brunswick Government, that this grant of $63,000 a year, beyond the subsidy of 80 cents per head of the population for the purposes of local govemment, wUl give New Brunswick $34,000 a-year over and above aU its necessities. (Hear, hear.) Under tbese circumstances, there need be no direct taxation in that province. The whole speech of Hon. Mr. Tilley, to which I reier, would be found very instructive if I could read it all, but I am afraid of wearying the House. (Cries of "go on.") Well, after reciting the various advantages that will be conferred on New Brunswick by Confederation, Hon. Mr. Til ley says : — Over and above all these advantages, we get for ten years a subsidy of $63,000 per annum ; our local expenditures, summed up, amount to §3^0,630 ; and we get from the General Govern ment, without increased taxation, $90,000 in lieu of our export duty (it should be " import duty,") and casual territorial revenue, making $201,637, and a special subsidy of $63,000 a year fur ten years, making in all $354,637, beiug $34,000 over and above our present necessities. These are the principal points looked to. (Hear, hear.) But, honorable gentlemen wiU remember, Hon* 261 Mr. Tilley declared — no Intercolonial Rail way, no Confederation — and Canada gave him what he wanted. (Hear, hear.) It is not New Brunswick alone that is to get something handsome over and above its necessities. I have here a letter from the Charlottetown (P. E. I.) Examiner, wherein Mr. Whelan, the editor, and one of the delegates at the Quebec Conference, sums up the advan tages to be obtained by Prince Edward Island pretty much as Hon. Mr. Tilley does for New Brunswick. He says: — By this arrangement the debt of Prince Edward Island will be guaranteed to the amount of $2,025,000 — the hiterest of which, at five per cent, wiU be $101,250. Add to this the pro portion which the Confederation has given to each province for the support of their local ad ministration, at the rate of 80 cents per head, giving for the population of Prince Edward Island, which ia 81,000, the sum ot $64,800 ; we have then a total of $166,050, whioh Prince Edward Island will receive annually. Deduct from this sum $12,000 forinterest at five per cent. on our debt of £75,000 or $240,000, and the bal ance in our favor will be $154,050, which aum ex ceeds by nearly forty-eight thousand dollars the actual cost of our local affairs, the Central Govern ment undertaking to pay certain general expenses. (Hear, hear.) The general expenses he alludes to are the salaries of the govemor, judges, and so on, which the General Govemment will pay. Thus, sir, we have Mr. Whelan, one of the dele gates, and Hon. Mr. Tilley, another, chuck ling over the good bargains they have made at the expense of Canada, and endeavoring in this manner to carry the scheme of Confederation by showing that New Brunswick is to have $34,000 over and above its necessities, and Prince Edward Island $48,000. I would advise the Hon. Finance Minister, when he is in distress for want of money, to go down there and borrow this surplus which we will have to pay to these provinces ; they will no doubt, be willing to lend on favorable terms. (Laugh ter.) I have entered into a short calcula tion to show what proportion Upper and Low er Canada will respectively have to bear of these additional burdens, — $63,000 a year for ten years to New Brunswick, would make a capital at five per cent, of about $350,000. Hon. Mr. HOLTON— More near $400,- 000. Hon. Mr. DORION— My calculation is rather under than over the mark, but let us take $350,000 as the capitalized value ofthis annuity for ten years. That gives an interest of $1'7,500 per annum forever. Now, sup- posbg the increased extent of territory to be defended under the Confederation augments the militia expenditure to the extent of a million a-year — this, I think, is a very rea sonable estimate, and will not go very far to wards carrying out the intentions of the Con ference respecting military and naval defence, as explained by the President of the Council to his Toronto audience. Then add the in terest of the sum required to build the Inter colonial Railway, five per cent, on $20,000,000, and we have an annual payment of $1,000,000 more, which is increased by $150,000, the in demnity paid to Newfoundland for its valuable mineral lands. Then we have to pay the local governments, at the rate of 80 cents per head, $3,056,849. The interest on the debt of Nova Scotia, $8,000,000, wiU amount to $400,- 000 ; on that of New Brunswick, $7,000,000, to $350,000 ; on that of Newfoundland, $3,- 250,000, to $162,000; and on the debt of Prince Edward Island, $2,021,425, to $101,- 071. Adding all these sums together, we find that the annual expenditure, in addition be it remembered to the burdens which we now bear, will be $6,237,920 — (hear, hear) — represent ing a capital of $124,758,400. (Hear, hear.j The share of Canada in this annual expendi ture will be $1.89 per head, amounting to the sum of $4,725,000. This is altogether irres pective of the debt of $62,500,000 with wbich Canada enters the union. The share of Up per Canada, according to population, will be $2,646,000 ; but Upper Canadians have long claimed that they paid upwards of two-thirds of the expenditure, and the Globe lately said that this was the proportion ten years ago, but that the disparity had greatly increased since. If Upper Canada really pays two-thirds of the expenditure, its share in the additional but necessary expenditure will be $3,183,334 per annum. (Hear, hear.) This is taking for granted that the Lower Provinces should pay their share according to population. I have my doubts about that, and I believe that the city of Montreal pays a little more duty on imports than Prince Edward, and more, per haps, than Prince Edward Island and New foundland put together, and tbat the popula tion of the District of Montreal pay a good deal more per head than that of New Bruns wick. Mr. H. F. MACKENZIE— Do you mean the local consumption ? Hon. Mr. DORION — I mean to say that the inhabitants of the city of Montreal pay a great deal more than the inhabitants of any similar portion of any of the provinces, and that the district of Montreal consumes as much as any other section of the same extent and 262 population. But I have taken these figures, as to the relative contribution of Upper and Lower Canada to the revenue, as given by the organ of the President of the Council. But, sir, we have been told, for ten years past, that Upper Canada wanted representation by popu lation for nothing else but because Lower Canada was spending the money of tbe pro- -vince lavishly — two-thirds of it coming from the pockets of the people of Upper Canada. We have been told that it was not to interfere with the institutions, language, or laws of Lower Canada, but merely to give Upper Canada proper control over the finances. That waa the only thing to be gained by it. Mr. a. MACKENZIE— No, no ! Hon. Mr. DORION— Perhaps the honor able gentleman will recollect a letter written by the honorable member for Montreal West to "my dear friend Macarrow," of Kingston It was ou the eve of the general election in June 1801, and intended to induce the people of Upper Canada to join in putting out that bad Administration that had been the bane of the country — the Cartier-Macdonald Ad ministration. The reasons which were given were as foUows: — First. — Because they collectively violated the Constitution, and outraged the moral sense ofthe country by the double-shufHe and double swearing of 1858. Second. — Because they violated the Constitution by allowing payments, aud grantino- gratuities, and giving or procuring lucrative con tracts for members of Parliament, or their sup porters, as witness the payments, grants and con tracts made or given to Mr. Torcotte, Mr. Mc Leod, Mr. Benjamix, Mr. A. P. Macdonald, and Mr. -McMicKEN. Third. — Because they violated the Constitution by keeping for three sessiona Messrs. Alleyn, Dubobd and Simakd in their seats for Quebec on a pretended majority of 15,000 votes. Fourth — Because they violated the Constitution by justifying the sale of offices in Sheriff Mercer's case, and in retaiuiuo- the Hon. Col. Prince in the Upper House aa "their active parti^Hu, after his office had been created and his commissiou made uut, as Judge of the District of Algoma. i^i/i;A.— Because^they vio lated the Constitution by keeping Joseph C. Morrison in the Cabinet, as Mmister of the Crown, after he had besn three times rejected by the people. iSfefA.— Because they violated the Constitution iu abandoning to the discretion of Sir Edmund Head personally, the sole represen tation of the people of Canada, during the mem orable visit of His Royal Highness the Prince of Wales. Seventh. — Because they have continu ously and syslematically violated the Constitution in expe/idlng vast sums of money, amounting in the aggregate to several millions of dollars, with out the authority of Parliament. Sir, I ad-vise the honorable gentleman to con tinue that correspondence and add the $100,- 000 which the Grand Trunk Railway had got, and the bill of exchange affair. Mr. POWELL— The Confederation is worth all that. (Laughter.) Hon. Mr. DORION— The letter proceeds to aay : — Thia indictment will be admitted to - contain grave misdemeanors and breaches of truat, which ought to be punished by the people, now that they have the offenders up for judgment. What ever differences of opinion may exist among the Opposition, whether members or leadeis, as to the nature aud extent of the constitutional re forms demanded in our present frame of Govern ment, there is not a shadow of ^difference in this point, that some remedy must be found at once for the unprincipled expenditure ofthe pub lic money which is daily demoralizing our public men, beggaring the oounfry, and retarding its natural ratio of increase ?•<>•* ^g want, first of all, an honest government, a really responsible government — which, except in the clearest case of necessity, such as an invasion of the soil, will not on any pretext whatever lavish the people's money without the authority of the people's representatives. Well, sir, this was the advice given to Upper Canada in 1861, by one of the leaders, the present Hon. Minister of Agriculture. Hon. Mr. McGEE— What has that to do with the union of the provinces ? Hon. Mr. DORION— It has much to do with it. It shows that representation by pop ulation was put forth as a remedy for the financial evils of our present system of gov ernment. Under this advice Upper Canada gave a large majority against the Government of the day, and the members elected turned round, and by abandoning, for a time at least, representation by poputation, they acknow ledged that the financial question wus para^ mount to it. I have shown, Mr. Speaker, I think, the proportion which Upper Canada would have to pay of the increased expendi ture which must immediately ensue from the adoption of Confederation which is proposed to free Upper Canada from a larger expenditure by Lower Canada than what she contributes to the revenue. Now, let us see what that ex penditure is. The whole expenditure of the province exclusive of interest on public debt, costs of legislation, militia, subsidy to ocean steamers and collection of revenue, which will have to be paid even with Confederation, if it takes place, does not amount to more than $2,500,000, or one doUar per head of the whole population. Then supposing that 263 Upper Canada pays two-thirds of that sum, or $1,666,666, and Lower Canada one-third. Upper Canada would only pay $266,666 more than her share according to population. And it is, I say, to get rid of this expenditure of a couple of hundred thousand dollars that the Upper Canadian members of the Govern ment propose that their section of tbe country should pay an additional yearly expenditure of $3,181,000, yielding no return wiiatsoever — (hear, hear) — and to saddle on Lower Can ada an additional expenditure of from $1,- 500,000 to $2,000,000 a year— the amount depending on the proportion which they res pectively contribute to the revenue of the country. And, Mr. Speaker, this is only the immediate and necessary expenditure that -will fall upon the people of Canada at the very outset. There is not a single sixpence in this estimate for any improvements to be made in the eastem or westem portion of the Confed eracy. (Hear, hear.) But, sir, respecting the defences of the countiy, I should have said at an earlier stage of my remarks that this scheme proposes a union not only with Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, Prince ' Edward Island, and Newfoundland, but also with British Columbia and Vancouver's Island. Although I have not been able to get the information from the Government — for they do not seem to be very ready to give informa tion — yet I understand that there are des patches to hand, stating that resolutions have been adopted in the Legislature of British Columbia asking for admission into the Con federation at once. I must confess, Mr. Speaker, that it looks like a burlesque to speak as a means of defence of a scheme of Confederation to unite the whole country extending from Newfoundland to Vancouver's Island, thousands of miles intervening -sithout any communication, except through the United States or around Cape Hom. (Oh!) Hon. Atty. Gen. CARTIER— There is an Interoceanic Railway to be buUt. Hon. Mr. DORION — Yes, I suppose that is another necessity of Confederation, to which we may soon look forward. Some Western extension of this Grand Trunk scheme for the benefit of ?Iessrs. Watkin & Co., of the new Hudson's Bay Company. So far as Lower Canada is concerned, I need hardly stop to point out the objections to the scheme. It is evident, from what has transpired, that it is intended eventually to form a legislative union of all the provinces. The local govern ments, in addition to the General Govern ment, will he found" 80 burdensome', "that a majority of the people will appeal to the Im perial Govemment for the fonnation of a le gislative union. (Hear, hear.) I may weU ask if there is any member from Lower Can ada, of French extraction, who is leady to vote for a legislative union. What do I find in connection with the agitation of this scheme ? The honorable member for Sherhrooke stated at the dinner to the delegates given at Toronto, after endorsing everything that bud been said by the Honorable President of the Coun cU :— We may hope that, at no far distant day, we may become willing to enter into a Legislative Union instead of a federal union, as now pro posed. We would have all have desired a legis lative union, and to see the power concentrated in the Central Government as it exists in Englanl, spreading the jesis of ita protection over all the institutions of the land, but -we found it was im possible to do that at first. We found that there were difficulties in the way which could uot be overcome. Honorable members from Lower Canada are made aware that tbe delegates all desired a legislative union, but it could not bo accom plished at once. This Confederation is the first necessary step towards it. The British Govemment is ready to grant a Federal union at once, and when that is accomplished the French element will be com- letely over whelmed by the majority of Britisli repre sentatives What then would prevent the Federal Govemment from passing a set of resolutions in a similar way to those we are called upon to pass, without submitting them to the people, caUing upon the Imperial Gov ernment to set aside the Federal form of gov ernment and give a legislative union instead of it ? (Hear, hear.) Perhaps the people of Upper Canada think a legislative union a most desirable thing. I can tell those gentle men that the people of Lower Canada are attached to their institutions in a manner that defies any attempt to change them in that way. They will not change their religious institutions, tbeir laws and their language, fbr any consideiration whatever. A miUion of inhabitants may seem a small affair to the mind of a philosopher who sits down to write out a constitution. He may think it would be better that there should be but one religion, one language and one system of laws, and he goes to work to frame institutions that will bring all to that desirable state ; but I can tell honorable gentlemen that tbe history of every country goes to show that not even by the power bf the sword can such chmgea be 264 accomplished. (Hear, hear.) We have the history of the Greek race, ha-ving at one time a population of six millions, dwindling down to seven hundred thousand, and we find them even then, after several centuries of oppres sion, rising up and asserting their rights. (Hear, hear.) We have the same circum stance in the history of Belgium, whicb was united to Holland with a view to secure the assimilation of the two countries, but fifteen years of trial had hardly elapsed when the whole of the Belgium people and Government rose en masse to protest against that union, and to assert their separate nationality. (Hear, hear.) Sir, it is not only from the history of the past we may derive the lesson, but we have the circumstances of the present gener ation to guide us. I am astonished to see the honorable member for Montreal West helping a scheme designed to end in a legislative union, the object of which can only be to assimilate the whole people to the dominant population. In that honorable gentleman's own country the system has produced nothing but a dis satisfied and rebellious people. Is it desirable that in this country then we should pass a measure calculated to give dissatisfaction to a million of people ? You may ascertain what the cost of keeping down a million of dissatisfied people is by the scenes that have been and arc now transpiring on tbe other side of the line, where a fifth of the people of tbe United States has risen and has caused more misery and misfortune to be heaped upon that country than could bave been wrought in cen turies of peaceful compromising legislation. Sir, if a legislative union of the British American Provinces is attempted, there will be such an agitation in this portion of the province as was never witnessed before — you will see the whole people of Lower Canada clinging together to resist by all legal and con stitutional means, such an attempt at wresting from them those institutions that they now enjoy. They would go as a body to the Legislature, voting as one man, and caring for nothing else but for the protection of their beloved institutions and law, and making gov emment all but impossible. The ninety Irish members in the British House of Commons, composed as it is of nearly seven hundred members, by voting together have caused their influence to be felt, as in the grants to the Maynooth College and some other questions. It would be the same way with the people of Lower Canada, and a more deplorable state of things would be the inevitable result. The majority would be forced by the minority to do things they would not, under the circum stances, think of doing. This is a state so undesirable that, although I am strongly op posed to the proposed Federal union, I am still more strongly opposed to a legislative union. Tbose who desire a legislative union may see from this what discordant elements they would ha,ve to deal with in undertaking the task, and what misery they would bring upon the oountry by such a step. (Hear, hear.) I know there is an apprehension among the British population in Lower Canada that, with even the small power that the Local Government will possess, their rights will not be respected. How, then, can it be expected that the French population can anticipate any more favorable result from the General Gov ernment, when it is to possess such enormous powers over the destinies of their section of the country ? Experience shows that majori ties are always aggressive, and it cannot well be otherwise in this instance. It therefore need not be wondered at that the people of Lower Canada, of British origin, are ready to make use of every means to prevent their being placed at the mercy of a preponderating population of a different origin. I agreo with them in thinking that they ought to take nothing on trust in this matter of entering upon a new state of political existence, and neither ought we of French origin to do so, in relation to the General Government, how ever happy our relations to each other may be at present. Hon. Mr. McGEE — That is a glorious doctrine to instil into society. (Hear, hear. ) Hon. Mr. DORION— WeU it is the doc trine generaUy acted upon, and correctly so. When my honorable friend makes a contract with a friend and neighbor to be fiUed even a few months in the future, does he not have it put in legal form, in black and white ? Of course he does. And when we are making arrangements calculated to last for all time to come, is it not vastly more important that the same safe and equitable principle should be recognized? (Hear, hear.) The honorable gentleman recognized it himself in the most marked manner, by placing in the resolutions guarantees respecting the educational institu tions of the two sections of Canada. The Roman Catholics of Upper Canada were anxious to have their rights protected against the hand of the Protestant majority, and, where the Protestants are in a minority, they are just as anxious to have their rights per manently protected. But, sir, the whole scheme, since it must be taken or rejected ae 265 a whole, is one wHeh I do not think any honorable member of this House can really endorse in an unreserved manner, if he were to speak his sentiments freely. I see nothing in it but another railway scheme for the benefit of a few — and I cannot better describe the whole project than by a quotation from the remarks of a gentleman, who expressed himself on the subject of Confederation and the In tercolonial Railway a very short time before he became a member of the present Adminis tration, and a warm advocate of both these bubbles. After speaking of the visit of Mr. Watkin to this country, he closes with the foUowing : — If our Government were to rush iuto the rail way project, expend a large sum of money upon the road, and form a compact immediately with Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, and JPrince Ed ward Island, both the alliance and the road would be carried out mainly for the benefit of the dominant power in this province at this moment ; we need hardly say we mean Lower Canada. The important question to Upper Canada — her connection with the North-West Territory — would be altogether ignored, Quebec would be made the capital of the Federation, representation by population would form no part of the compact, and, inatead of having one leech draining her of her resources, Upper Canada would have three. Before entering into new alliances, it should be the eflfort of Upper Canadians to regulate the affairs of their own province, to obtain represen tation by population, and to open the North-West Territory, so that when the Federation of all the Britiah American provinces does come, it may be found with Upper Canada as the central figure of the group of states, with western adjuncts as well as eastern. Not even the most ardent supporter of the union of all the provinces can allege that there is any abaolute necessity for haste in carry ing out the project. Nobody is being hurt by the provinces remaining in their preaent condition ; no one single material intereat, either in Canada or the Lower Provincea, would be enhanced in value by the union. Thia appeared in the Ghhe in 1863. Mr. a. MACKENZIE- What Adminis tration did that refer to ? Hon. Mr. DORION— It did not refer to mine. Hon. Atty. Gen. MACDONALD— Well, whose was it ? Hon. Mr. HOLTON— I think the Min ister of Agriculture might inform my honora ble friend. Hon. j. S. MACDONALD— The Honor able Attomey General haa them nearly all around him. (Laughter.) Hon. Mr. DORION— On the 15th of Oc- 35 tober, Hon. Mr. Brown's paper further stat ed: — The line, in fact, will leave us just where we are now. In the summer, when navigation is opened, we can send produce down the river and gulf, and, to some extent, compete with the Americans. But in the winter, to suppose we can send flour and wheat over this long land route cheaper than the Americana can send it from the eastern ports, is an absurdity which no man ac quainted with the trade will commit. Again, on the 17th of October, in the same year, it said :— The road is to run mainly through a country which does not belong to Canada, but which can not, under any possible circumstances, bring any profit or return, directly or indirectly. On the 20th it aaid :— It will not be wise for the opponents of the measure to rely upon present appearances. The ministerial project must b resisted at every stage, in the press and in Parliament. Again, on the 25th of the same month : — With fair professions of retrenchment and economy on their lips. Ministers took office ; but three short months after -vards we find them launching a new railroad scheme upon the mar ket, admittedly more onerous at the raoment of initiation than was the Giand Trunk at the same stage. Sir, I agree with the statement, that to go into the construction of this road without knowing wh:it it is to cost, or over what par ticular route it is to be built, is a thing not to be thought of by any prudent member of this House, and that such a proposal ought to be resisted at every stage. I think, too, that the whole scheme, apart from the construction of the. railway, is worse than the railway acheme itaelf, and ought to be still more strongly opposed. It is a mere revival of a scheme that has been rejected by tbe people on every occasion on which it has been presented to them during the past seven years. Independent of various other considerations the mere question of its expense ought to cause it to be rejected by the representatives of the people. When the duties on imports were raised to twenty and twenty-five per cent., what was the cry we heard from the lower portion of the province ? It was that the people were quite unable to pay such a aerioua tax, and the result was the estabhsh ment of a free port at Gasp6. We have not,_ for several years, collected a single cent of income from that large section of country, but have, from year to year, paid out large sums of money for the opening up of roads, for the administration of justice, and for keeping up 266 a steam summer communication with the ex treme eastern section of the pro-vince. More money has been squandered in that section of the country than on any other, yet it has produced no revenue. And that was the character of the country through which the Intercolonial road was to run, both in Canada and in New Brunswick. For we are asked to add, at one stroke, to our debt of sixty-two and a half millions of dollars, an annual charge representing in capital the moderate sum of one hundred and twenty-four miUions — for that is the financial nature of the proposition, and this for the purpose of adding 900,000 inhabitants to our population, most of whom are not in a better position, if they are in as good, as the people of tbe district of Gasp6. (Hear, hear.) Sir, in 1841, nearly twenty- live years ago. Lower Canada entered into tl e union of the provinces with a debt of £133,- 000. That was a debt created by the Special Council, for the Legislature of Lower Canada under the old Constitution owed not a penny when it ceased to exist. That debt was created between 1837 and 1840. Since the union there have been expended in Lower Canada, for the Beauharnois canal, the en largement of the Lachine canal, the works on Lake St. Peter, and the Chambly canal, about four miUions of dollars. Besides, we have three hundred and fifty miles of the Grand Trunk Railway — about a hundred less (han Upper Canada. Taking one-half the cost to the province of that railway — two million pounds currency, or eight miUions of dollars — we have four miUions for canals and eight millions for railways. Twelve miUions of dollars have, therefore, been expended for public works in Lower Canada, with perhaps another miUion for other small works — in all, thirteen millions of dollars. Mr. a. MACKENZIE— What about the Montreal harbor ? Hon. Mr. DORION— The Montreal har bor will pay for itself. The Government will not be called upon to pay a single sixpence of its indebtedness. The province «nly guaran tees a small portion of its debentures, and will never have to pay a copper of it, any more than it will of the municipal indebtedness of the city of Montreal, the interest of which is regularly paid every year. Twelve or thirteen millions of dollars' worth of public works is all we are able to show for an increase of our debt from £133,000 at tbe time ofthe union, to $27,500,000, which, on going out of the union to enter into the Confederation, is the Lower Canada proportion of tbe $62,500,- 000 of public debt we are bringing into it. I do not take into comsideration the Municipal Loan Fund indebtedness, nor the Seigniorial Tenure redemption, because if we have re ceived any benefit from the outlay, we are going to be charged for those items separately over and above our share in the $62,500,000. If I am not right in thus stating the case, I hope honorable gentlemen on the other side of the House will correct me. From the ex planations given the other day by the Honor able Finance Minister, I infer that by putting the Seigniorial Tenure to the charge of Lower Canada, and by Upper Canada abandoning its indemnity for the Seigniorial Tenure ex penditure, there is no necessity for taking those items into account as part of the liability of Canada in the Confederation ; that the charge for the redemption of the Seigniorial Tenure, the township indemnity under the Seigniorial Act of 1859, the interest on that indemnity, the liability of the pro vince to the Superior Education Fund, and the loss on the Lower Canada Municipal Loan Fund, amounting in all to about $4,500,000, will have to be paid by Lower Canada alone, the interest on which, at five per cent, will be $225,000, wbich sum will be retained out of the $880,000 to be paid by the General Gov emment to Lower Canada for local purposes, leaving something less than 60 cents per head for carrying on the Local Government. Upper Canada came into the union with a debt of £1,300,000. Immediately after the union £1,500,000 sterling was borrowed for public works, most of which amount was' expended in Upper Canada. And yet Upper Canada goes out of the union by simply abandoning its claim for indemnity under the Seigniorial Tenure Act, having nothing to assume but its Municipal Loan Fund and its share in the Federal debt ; while Lower Canada, on the contrary, goes out with a load of $4,500,000 of local debt, besides the $27,500,000 which falls to its share to be paid through the General Government. And this, too, after paying for twenty-five years a highly increased taxation, for all which it has nothing to show except public improvements to the amount of about $13,000,000. Sir, if such a scheme as this, on being submit ted to the people, would be approved by them, I am very much mistaken. I submit that no such project ought to be voted by the House, before we bave the fullest information neces sary to enable us to come to right conclusions. (Hear, hear.) It is for the security of the majority, as well as of the minority, I make 267 this demand. Honorable gentlemen who ory " hear 1 hear 1" may find themselves very much disappointed, if, after this portion ofthe scheme is passed, the local constitutions proposed were quite unsatiafactory. I contend that the local constitutions are as much an essential part of the whole as the general Constitution, and that they both should have been laid at the same time before the House. (Hear, hear.) We ought, besides, to have a clear statement of what are the liabilities specially assigned to Upper and Lower Canada. (Hear, hear.) It is weU that Upper Canada should know if she has to pay the indebtedness of Port Hope, Cobourg, BrockvUle, Nia gara, and other municipalities whicii have borrowed from the municipal loan fund, and what these liabilities are; and it is important for Lower Canada to be told what are the amounts they wiU be required to tax themselves for. We ought, besides, to obtain some kind of information upon the subject of the Intercolonial Railway, what is the proposed cost, and what route is to bo followed ; and before these facts are before the House, we ought not to take it upon ourselves to legislate on the subject. StiU further, the people of the country do not understand the scheme. (Hear, hear.) Many members of this House, before hearing 'the explanations which have been offered, were, and others are StiU, in doubt as to the bearing of many of these resolutions. In the Upper Ilouse doubts were expressed as to who should recommend the appointment of the members composing the Legislative CouncU. It was thought in many quarters that the appointment of these members was to be made by the local govern ments after the scheme should come into operation. But this it seems is a mistake. There are many other matters with which we are unacquainted, particularly as regards the assets and UabUities. There is a provision that the nomination of the judges of the superior courts shall be vested in the General Government, but it would seem that the con stitution of the courts is to be left to the local governments ; and I put the question. What does this mean ? Do yoii mean that the local governments are to establish as many courts as they please, declare of how many judges they wUl be composed, and that the General Government wiU have to pay for them ? Is a local govemment to say, here is a court with three judges; we want five, and those five must be appointed and paid by the Gen eral Government ? I have received no answer to this and to several other questions. I can well understand what is meant by the regula tion of the law of divorce ; but what is meant by the regulation of the marriage question ? Is the General Government to be at liberty to set aside all that we have been in the habit of doing in Lower Canada in this respect ? Will the General Govemment have the power to determine the degree of relationship and the age beyond which parties may marry, as well as the consent which will be required to make a marriage valid ? (Hear, hear.) WUl all these questions be left to the General Government ? If so, it wiU have the power to upset one of the most important portions of our civil code, and one affecting more than any other all classes of society. The adoption, for instance, of the English rule, whereby females at the age of twelve, and males at the age of fourteen, can contract a valid marriage without the consent of parents, tutors or guardians, would be looked to by the mass of the people of Lower Canada as a most objectionable innovation in our laws, as would also any provision to aUow such marriages to take place before any common magistrate without any formality whatsoever. (Hear, hear.) Yet is there no danger that such measures might be carried, when you see the different feeUngs existing on these questions among the people of the different provinces ,5 There is another question to which I must refer before closing. It is aaid that the diviaion of the debt is a fair one. We have given, say the Govemment, $25 of debt to each inhabitant — that is, in those provinces where it was less, they have increased it to that amount, charging it to the Confedera tion, and thereby they have made a present to the several provinces of the difference between their present indebtedness and the $25 per head. (Laughter.) This $25 per head, when compared to the debt of England, is a heavier burthen upon our own people than the Imperial debt upon the people of England, taking into consideration the greater wealth per individual in England and the fact that the greater part of that debt bears three per cent, interest. (Hear, hear.) There is an other aspect in which this question of debt is to be considered. To equalize it, the Con ference have increased it on the basis of tbe present population for the several provinces. This is fair enough at present, supposing that each province contribute the same proportion to the general revenue, and would continue to be so if their population progressed in the same ratio of increase; but, from the natural advantages of Upper and Lower 268 Canada, and their greater area of arable lands, there is no doubt they will increase in popu lation and wealth in a mueh greater ratio than the Lower Provinces, and in ten years hence, this proportion, which this day appears a fair one, wUl have much increased for Upper and Lower Canada, while it will have diminished for the Lower Provinces. (Hear, hear.) I owe an apology to the House for having of fered such lengthened remarks on this ques tion, and I have to thank honorable members for having so kindly listened to them. (Cries of "go on.") I will simply content myself with saying tbat for these reasons which I have so imperfectly exposed, I strongly fear it would be a dark day for Canada when she adopted such a acheme as this. (Cheers.) It would be one marked in the history of tbis country as having had a most depressing and crushing influence on the energies of the peo ple in both Upper and Lower Canada — (hear hear) — for I consider it one of the worst schemes that could be brought under the con sideration of the House ; and if it should be adopted without the sanction of the people, the country would never cease to regret it. (Hear, hear. ) What is tho necessity for all this haste ? The longer this Constitution is expected to last, the greater the necessity for the fullest consideration and deliberation. I find, sir, that when, in 1839, Lord John Rus sell brought into the House of Commons his first measure for the union of the provinces, he announced his intention to lay his measure before the House, have it read a second time, and postpone it till next session, to give a year to the people of Canada to consider it and make such representations as they would think proper. (Hear, hear.) And it was only in the subsequent session, and after under going considerable modifications in the mean time, that the measure was passed. Nothing could be more reasonable than such delay. But here it seems the people are to be treat ed with less respect than they were when their Constitution was suspended, and this meas ure is to be pushed with indecent haste. There are three modes of obtaining the views of the people upon the question now under discussion. The most direct one would be, after debating it in this House, to submit it to the people for their verdict, yea or nay. The second is to dissolve the House and appeal to tha people. The third is to discuss and pass the resolutions or address to a second reading, and afterwards leave it open to the public to judge of its merits, by meet ing and discussing it, and sending in petition^ and instructing their representatives how to vote upon it when they came to Parliament at the next session. Any one of these methods would elicit the views of the people. But to say that the opinions of the people have been ascertained on the question, I say it is no such thing. (Hear, liear.) We have heard one side ofthe question discussed, but we have heard none of the views on the other side ; and yet the feeling, as exhibited in some parts of the country, has been un- mistakeably in favor of an appeal to the people. Some fifteen counties in Lower Canada have held meetings and declared for an appeal before the scheme is allowed to pass ; and when honorable gentlemen on the other side have held second meetings, they have been condemned more conclusively than at first. (Hear, hear.) In the county of Rouville, the hon. member representing that county, not satisfied with the first expression of opinion, held a second meeting, but the decision was still more emphatic than at the first. (Hear, hear.) Then meetings have been held, aU tending to the same conclusion, in St, Maurice, Maskinongd, Berthier, Joli ette, Richelieu, Chambly, Ve-rohferes, Bagot, St. Hyacinthe, Iberville, St. John's, Napier ville, Drummond and Arthabaska, Two Mountains, Vaudreuil, and also in the city of Montreal. Mr. BELLEROSE— What about Laval ? Hon. Mr. DORION — Yes, a meeting was called, and called without the requisite notice ; the notice having been given at the church doors on a Friday for a meeting on the next day; but notwithatanding, when the meeting was held, the hon. gentleman did not dare press a resolution in favor of Con federation, but simply one of confidence iu himself (Hear, hear.) His friends col lected together, and all they did was to expreaa confideoce in him. There waa no rcaolution in favor of Confederation, nor of passing such a measure without submitting it to the people. (Hear, hear.) I have now to thank the House for the patience with which they have listened to my remarks. In the terms of the paragraph I have quoted from the Globe, I shall feel it my duty to resist the passage of the measure at every stage, with a view that the scheme should go to the people in some shape or other. (Hear, hear.) There is no hurry in regard to the scheme. We are now legislating for the future as well as for the present, and feeling that we ought to make a Constitution as perfect as possible, and as far as possible 269 in harmony with the yiews of the people, I maintain that we ought not to pass this measure now, but leave it to another year, in order to ascertain in the meantime what the views and sentiments of the people actually are. (The honor-able gentleman was loudly cheered on resuming his seat.) After some discussion as to the mode of continuing the debate, the House adjourned at ten minutes past twelve. LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Friday, February 17, 1865. Hon. Mr. CURRIE said— Hon. gentle men, with the consent of my hon. friend Opposite (Hon. Mr. Dickson) who is en titled to the floor, in consequence of having moved the adjournment of the debate, t rise for the purpose of proposing the resolu tion which ior some length of time has been before the House, on the notice-paper. It is one which, I think, should commend itself to the good sense and impartial judgment of the members of this Honorable House ; and I shall be surprised if it shall meet any degree of opposition from the hon. gentle men representing the Government in this branch of the Legislature. (Hear, hear) The resolution is as follows : — That upon a matter of such great importance as the purposed Confederation of this and certain other British colonies, thia House is unwilling to assume the responsibility of assenting to a mea sure involving so many important considerations, without further manifestation of the public will than has yet been declared. It is not aimed at either the destruction or the defeat of the resolutions before the House. It simply asks for delay until such time as the people of the country can more fully express their views on the matter than they have hitherto had an opportunity of doing, lion, gentlemen, I stated, when I first addressed this Chamber in reference to tbe proposed address, that I was not opposed to the Confederation of the British Pro vinces iu itself, but that I was opposed to many of the details erabraced in the reso lutions upon which this House is asked to found an Address to Her Majesty the Queen. The hon. gentleman (Hon. Mr. Ross) who followed me upon that occasion, stated among otber thinp-s, that I had attempted to decry the Lower Provinces, and that I Jiad attempted also tio decry the credit gf Canada. I appeal to hon. members present, who were good enough to Usten to me on that occasion, to point out a single word which I said, reflecting upon the credit ofthe people of the eastern, provinces. Instead of having said anything to their discredit, I thought I had paid them a very high compliment. So far from reflecting upon the character of the public men of those provinces, I alluded to but one of them by name, the Hon. Mr. Tilley, and I paid him the compliment, which he fully merits, of stating that he must bo ranked among the leading and most prominent of British American statesmen. (Hear, hear.) As to my decrying the credit of Canada — if, to tell the truth — if, to speak the honest convictions of one's mind — if, to state to the world what the Public Accounts of our country tell us — if this be to decry the credit of our country — then I am guilty of the charge. But the hon. gentleman went on and told us, that my speech was so illo gical that it was unworthy of notice. Hon. Mr. ROSS— I did not say that. Hon. Mr. CURRIE— The hon. gentle man said what amounted to that. And yet to my astonishment he found it necessary to reply to me in a speech four columns in length — a speech, however, in which he failed to controvert a single position which I had the honor to take on that occasion. Then I was charged with having attacked statements of fact made by our public men, Hon. Mr. ROSS— Hear ! hear ! Hon. Mr. CURRIE— The hon. gentle man from Toronto says " Hear, hear." But I ask, is it not the duty of hon. gen tlemen, standing • on the floor of this House, to correct misstatements which have been sent to the country ? Was I doing anything more than my duty, when, in my humble way, I endeavored to correct what, if not misstatements, were at least evidently incorrect statements ? We have had too much of that kind of thing in this country. And since my hon. friend from Toronto (Hoc. Mr. Ross) has chosen to remind me of it, I must say that I think it is much to be regretted that certain state ments have been made in this country, and sent from this country, which, instead of helping to build up our credit, have done much to injure it. (Hear, hear.) Perhaps I could not allude to anything more forcibly in point, than the flaming prospectus sent to the world under the auspices of my hon. friend from Toronto, in which he promised the confiding capitalists of England a 270 dividecd of 11} per cent, on the stock they might subscribe to the Grand Trunk Railway. Hon. Mr, ROSS— Was it not Hi ? (Laughter.) Hon. Mr. CURRIB--N0 ; he was uot so modest as to put it at Hi. (Laughter.) It was 11} per cent. I was charged with attacking the statements of the Hon. Mr. Tilley. I stated, when last addressing the House, that Hon. Mr. Tidley informed a public meeting — I think in St. John, New Brunswick — that the tariff of Canada was in fact an 11 per cent, tariff, and my non. friend from Toronto said that Hon. Mr. Tilley was correct in making that statement. Hon.Mr. ROSS— What I said was that the average duty on the whole imports ofthe coun try, including the free goods, was llper cent. Hon. Mr. CURRIK— Then I must say that that is a very novel way of arriving at the tariff of a country — to take all the duti able goods, to add to them all the free gooda, and then to average tbe duty on the whole. It may be a very convenient, but it ia not a correct or honeat mode in my opinion. Hon. Mr. ROSS — It ia preciaely what Hon. Mr. Tilley did ; and I did it in the aame way. Hon. xMr. CURRIE- My hon. friend told ua that our preaent able and talented Finance Minister had stated the tariff of our- country to be an 11 per cent tariff. I asked my hon. friend when the Finance Minister stated that ? Hon. Mr. ROSS— I said that, taking the statements Hon. Mr. Galt had fur nished with reference to the tariff of customs duties, and the amount of imports of dutiable and free goods, and finding the average of the whole to be 1 1 per cent., Hon. Mr. Tilley had made a statement based on Hon. Mr. Galt's own figures, Hon. Mr. CURRIE— I find the report makes my hon. friend say, that " The Hon. Mr. Tilley had quoted the figures of our own Minister of Finance." He was wrong in that statement, because Hon. Mr. Tilley,* on the occasion I referred to, had quoted the figures furnished by the Comptroller of New Brunswick. Hon. Mr. ROSS— The ComptroUer of New Brunswick could not furniah the figures of the trade of Canada. Hon. Mr. CURRIE— Surely my hon. friend will remember, that, to give official force to the statement of Hon. Mr. Tilley, he said that, after the Comptroller of tho province had reviewed our tariff, he came to the con clusion that it was but an 11 per cent, tariff. I quote from the report : — Hon. Mr. Tilley quoted the figures of our own Minister of Finance, and the hon. membe: represented him as not speaking the truth, but as, in effect, attempting to deceive those whom he addressed. Hon. Mr. Cukkie — I beg to know when the Finance Minister of Canada stated that the average dutiea collected in Canada were 11 per cent. He (Honorable Mr. Ross) desired to be no longer interrupted ; I ceased to interrupt him, and he did not give me an answer to the question. But, if the honorable member from Toronto will turn to the cele brated speech of the Minister of Finance made only tho other day at Sherhrooke, he will find that Hon. Mr. Galt puts the Canada tariff at 20 per cent. Hon. Mr. ROSS— But he did not in clude the free goods ; that is all. Hon. Mr. CURRIE — No, he did not include the free goods. But I say that if he had taken the value of dutiable goods, as we find it given in the Trade Returns of 1863 — the laat complete returns for a year that we have — instead of arriving at the con clusion that we had a tariff of only 20 per cent., he would have found that the actual duty on tho dutiable goods imported in 1863 was 22} per cent. (Hear, hear.) Then my hon. friend from Toronto came to the assis tance of Mr. Lynch of Halifax. And, not stopping there, he undertook the defence of the present President of the Council (Hon. Mr. BaoWN) and the Provincial Secretary (Hon. Mr. McDougall) I confess I was a little amused, and somewhat surprised to find my hon. friend from Toronto becoming the apologist and champion of those hon. gentlemen, who, I believe, are perfectly competent on all occasions to take care of themselves — even without the assistance of my hon. friend. (Hear, hear.) He next alluded to the propriety and necessity — when the people of Canada were on the point of forming a partnership with the other pro vinces — of our knowing what the assets of those provinces were — what stock they were bringing into the common concern. I had shewed that we had a great many valuablo public works — some of them of a profitable character. My hon. friend told us that the Lower Provinces too were engaging in profit able worka. He told us that New Brunswick had spent eight millioaa of dollara ou rail ways, and jNova Scotia aix millions — and that fromj those railways th.Qse provinces 271 were getting a net revenue of $140,000, or $70,000 a year each, which would go into the revenue of the General Governement. WeU, hon. gentlemen, when such statements are made on the floor of this House, they of course go abroad, and those who make them ought to be well satisfied that they are based on rehable facts. Hon. Mf{. ROSS— So they were. Hon. Mu. CURRIE — WeU, I was very much struck by the hon. gentlemen's state ment. I was surprised to find it stated, in the first place, that tbose provinces had already spent so much on railw.sys ; and, in tbe next place, that those railways in the eastern provinces were so much more pro fitable and paid so much better than the railways in Canada. Now, I find, on looking at the Public Accounts of those provinces — the very latest available — that the New Brunswick railways cost $4,275,000, and that the Nova Scotia railways cost $4,696,- 288 — that the New Brunswick railways in 1862 paid $21,711 net, andthe Nova Scotia railways, $40,739 — making together, instead of $140,000 for the two provinces, as stated by my hon. friend from Toronto, the small sum of $62,450. And this too, hon. gentle men will bear in mind, was from new rail ways, or railways comparatively new — and they will find, if they take the trouble to examine the accounts, that the cost of the repairs of those railroads, as of every other railroad after it has become somewhat worn, is increasing year by year. Hon. Mr. ROSS— The House wiU recol lect that I took the figures which were prompted to me while speaking. Hon. Mr. CURRIE — That is the mistake which, I fear, has been committed during the whole of this discusaion. (Hear, hear.) Our public men have been too reckleas in making atatementa — statements in the east, as to the prosperity of Canada ; and statements in the west, as to the wealth, property and resources of those eaatern provinces. Now, hon. gentlemen, let us look at our public works, which my hon. friend in a meaaure tried to belittle and decry. Hon. Mr. ROSS — I did not belittle them ; I said that indirectly they were of of great value to the country. Hon. Mr. CURRIE— Yes ; and directly too. I find, by the Public Accounts of the province, that in 1863 the net revenue of our public works — all of whioh are going to the Confederate Government — ^yielded to this province a net revenue ot $308,187 — and that our public works cost this pro vince, taking the amount set down in the statements of affairs of the province, $25,- 931,168. So much for the stock — so far as the public works at all events are con cerned — that this province is prepared to put into the partnership with the other provinces. (Hear, hear.) I shall refer no further to the remarks made by my hon. friend from Toronto in answer to the few words I addressed to the House the other day, beyond expressing my regret that my hon. friend should not merely have been dissatisfied with the statements I made, but that he should have thought fit to take exception to the style and the manner in which my remarks were submitted to the Honorable House. Hon. Mr. ROSS — I said, the temper and tone. Hon. Mr. CURRIE— From the atten tion you were kind enough to give me, hon. gentlemen, on that occasion, and from the way in whieh my remarks were received both by my political opponents and my political friends, I had hoped that I had not exceeded the bounds of propriety — that, neither in my temper nor in my tone had I violated tbe rules of this House. If I did so I regret it, and I may bo allowed to express the hope that when my native land has paid one-fourth as much for my poli tical education as it has paid for that of my hon. friend from Toronto — if my manners still fail to be those of a Chesterfield, or my eloquence that of a PiTT — 1 shall at all events be able to treat my fellow membera with courtesy and propriety. (Hear, hear.) But, leaving theso little matters to take care of themselves, 1 shall now allude to the strong pressure which seems, from some source or other, to be urging the repreaen tativea of ihe people of Canada, and the people themaelvea, to adopt this important scheme without that time for deliberate consideration which a matter of that kind is entitled to. I am satisfied that that pressure does not come from the people themselves. I am satisfied it does not come either from this or from the other branch of the Legislature. I entertain the fear, which haa been expreaaed before, that it has been a pressure from without, whioh has been urging us to take this step too rapidly, I fear, for our country's good. It may be that the statesmen of Great Britain, 272 and that a great portion of the people of Great Britain are very anxious for this measure, and that the press of that country generally approves of it. But, when they rightly understand it — when parties holding our provincial securities know that Con federation means more debt, more taxation, and a worse public credit — we will have another cry coming from across the Atlantic. And when British manufacturers know that Confederation means a higher tariff on British goods, we shall have different views from them also, crossing the Atlantic. (Hear, hear.) Hon. gentlemen, when I left my constituency, I had little idea that this measure was going to be pressed upon the country in the manner in which I see the Government of the day are attempting to press it. I think we should pause before adopting these resolutions. I think we want some more information before we adopt them. Beforo we vote away our local con stitutions — before we vote away in fact our whole Constftution — we should know some thing of what we are going to got in place of what we are giving away. Did any hon. gentleman suppose, before he left his home, that we would not have the whole scheme of Confederation brought down tj us, and be asked to pass a judgment on it, or to con sider it at all events as a whole schenie ? I think we ought to be cautions in taking half a raeasure until we know what is the whole of it. (Hear, hear.) Hon. gentle men will remember the caution with which the Parliament of England proceeded, in 1839, when dealing with the rights of tha people of Canada. At tbat t'lne there was an urgent necessity for a new Constitution for the people of Canada, and a great neces sity for it, particularly in the eastern pro vince. When the Government of the day brought down their resolutions — in some thing like the same shape as those now before the House — resolutions embodying the principle of a Legislative Union — the leader of the opposition. Lord Stanley, claimed that the whole measure should be r rought down ; and the Government of the day was actually compelled, by the force of public opinion iu and out of Parliament, to withdraw the resolutions, and to bring down their entire measure. (Hear, hear.) And are we to be less careful of our own consti tutional rights — are we to guard more loosely the interests of ourselves and those who are to come after us — than the people legislating for us three or four thousand miles away ? Besides, we are asked by those reso lutions to pledge our province — to what ? To build the Intercolonial Railway, without knowing, as I stated the other day, where it is to run, or what it is to cost. Why do we not have the report of the able engineer sent to survey and report upon that work ? Why is it delayed ? Why is it attempted to hurry this measure through the Legislature, while we are in the dark with reference to that great undertaking ? It may be that it is kept back designedly, and for the purpose of furthering this very measure, not here, but in other parts of Britisli America. Hon. Mr. CAMPBELL— My hon. friend is going too far. The report has not yet been made, and, that being the case, it is some what extraordinary to charge the Government with keeping it back. Hon. Mr. CURRIE— Certainly ; I think the case is bad enough, when the Govern ment are charged merely with what they have done. And I have no desire to make an incorrect statement. But I will put it in this way : I think we have good reason to be surprised, that the Government should como down with their schemo, aud submit it to the House, before they even themselves know what the work is to co.st — (hear, hear) — and ask thia House and the country to pledge themselves to the construction of a work of which they do not even know the cost them selves. (Hear, hear.) Hut, if the report has not been prepared, we have been told in the public prints that the survey is either finished, or very nearly finished. The report, therefore, can soon be furnished ; and, why should there be so much hurry and anxiety to pass thesa resolutions before we get it ? Then, again, why do the Government not bring down those School Bills which have been promised ? Why are the people, or why is Parliament, to have no opportunity of pass ing judgment upon those measures — the School Bill for Upper Canada, aud the School Bill for Lower Canada — before this Confeder ation scheme is adopted ? I cannot see the propriety of keeping back these matters ; and I do not think the members of the Govern ment can show any reason whatever why they should not be settled at once. Then, hon. gentlemen, we should know something about the division of the public debt. If hon. gentlemen will take up the PubHc Accounts placed in their hands during the present session, they will find a statement of 273 the liabilities of this pro-vince, certifying the amount to be no less than $77,203,282. Now it is well known that Canada is only allowed to take into the Confederation the debt of $62,500,000, We have a right to aak how the other $15,000,000 are to be paid ? By whom are they to be assumed ? What portion is Upper Canada to assume ? What portion is Lower Canada to assume ? (Hear, hear.) Then, hou. gentlemen, if we adopt these resolutions, and a bill based on them is brought into the Imperial Parliament and carried — look at the power which is given to the Confederate Parliament. They have the power to impose local taxation upon e ch of the separate provinces I would like to know how that power is to be exercised ; I would like to know whether it is to be a capi tation tax, or an acreage tax upon the lands ofthe province, or whether it is to be a tax upon the general property of the pro vince. I am sure there is no hon. gentle man present who would not like information on these points, before voting for this scheme. (Hear, hear.) Then, hon. gentle men, there is another very important ques tion — the question of the defence of these provinces — which within a few months has taken a shape which it never took before in the history of this country. I shall trespass on the attention of the House for a few moments,- while I read an extract from a very able report on that question, which ranks, and in time to come too will rank, deservedly high as a State paper. It is a memorandum of the Executive Council, dated October, 1862, at the time the Macdonald-Sicotte Administration held oflice. And, whatever the errors of that Government might have been, however they may have been found fault with in other matters, I believe the people generally were of opinion that the stand which the Govern ment took on that question, was one which entitled them to the respect and confidence of the community at large. The Government say in this memorandum : — That they are not unwilling to try to the utmost to comply with the suggestions of the Imperial Government is evidenced by the manner in which the projected Intercolonial Railway haa been entertained. Their conduct in thia matter should relieve them from every imputation. At the same time, they insist that they are and muat be allowed to be the best judgea of the pressure which the provincial credit can sustain. They are prepared, subject to certain conditions, to encumber thia credit with liabilitiea arising out of the Intercolonial Railway, but they are not pre pared to enter upon a lavish expenditure to build up a military system distasteful to the Canadian people, disproportionate to Canadian resources, and not called for by any circumstance of which they at preaent have cognizance. That is, the arming and bringing into the field a force of 50,000 men. His Grace, while promising liberal assist ance, contends that any available supply of regular troopa would be unequal to the defence of the province — and that the main dependence of auch a country for defence muat be upon its own people. Your Excelleucy'a adviaera would not be faithful to their own convictiona or to the trust reposed in them, if they withheld an expres sion of their belief that withont very large assis tance any efforta or aacrifices of which the people of the province are capable, would not enable them successfully and for any lengthened period to repel invasion from the neighboring republic. They have relied for protection in some degree upon the fact, that under no conceivable circum stances will they provoke war with the United States, and if therefore Canada ahould become the theatre of war reaulting from Imperial policy, while it would cheerfully put forth its atrength in the defence of ita soil, it would neverthelesa be obliged to rely for its protection mainly upon Imperial resourcea ; and in auch an event it ig their opinion that they would be juatified in ex pecting to be assisted in the work of defence with the whole strength of the empire. It ia not ne cessary at this stage of their history, to put for ward assurances of the readiness ofthe Canadian people to assume whatever responsibilitiea belong to them as subjects of Her Majesty. Their devo tion has been exhibited too often to be open to doubt or depreciation. They have made sacri fices that should relieve them from suspicion, and which Her Majesty's Government ahould remem ber as a pledge of their fidelity. No portion of the empire is exposed to sufferings and aaCrifieea equal to those which would inevitably fall* upon this province in the event of war with the United Statea. No probable combination of regular troops and militia would preserve our aoil from invading armiea ; and no fortune which the moat sanguine dare hope for would prevent our moat flourishing districts from being the battle field of the war. Our trade would be brought to a stand still, our industry would be paralyzed, our richeat farming landa devastated, our towns and villages destroyed ; homes, happy in peace, would be rendered miserable by war, and all aa the reault of eventa for the production of which Canada would be in no wise accountable. And, honorable gentlemen, that ia not only the language in times paat of leading poli- ticiana in Canada. Hon. gentlemen may call to mind the writinga and sayings to the same effect of men in the eastern provinces — men now holdiug high position under the Impe- 274 rial Govemment. One hon. gentlemen, to whom I have particular reference (Hon. Joseph Howe) declared it was unreasonable to expect that we should defend ourselves against a foreign power, when we had no voice either in the declaring of war or the making of peace — that while we were quite ready, as in times past, to expose our persons and property to meet the invader at the threshold of our country, we were unwiUing to take upon ourselves, as colonists, a duty whioh belonged to the parent state. But does this correspond with the views that are now adopted by the Ministry of the day ? I hold in my hand an extract from a speech delivered by one of the most prominent mem bers of the Government at a recent banquet in the city of Toronto. And what did that hon. gentleman say ? Speaking of the Con ference at Quebec, he stated that '' the delegates unanimously resolved that the United Provinces of British North America shall be placed at the earliest moment in a thorough state of defence." Hon. gentlemen, I was not aware that the Imperial Govern ment had ever cast off the burden of the defence of this province. But we are told by an hon. gentleman, high in the Execu tive, that this Conference, self-appointed as it was, by a resolution that we do not see laid upon the table, promised to place the province in a thorough state of defence. Hon. gentlemen^ what does that mean ? It means an expendeture here of four or five millions of dollars annually, or else the statement exceeded the truth. Again the hon. gentle man stated : — " The Conference at Quebec did not separate before entering into a pledge to put the military and naval defences of the united provinces in the most com plete and satisfactory position." Before we discuss this scheme further — before we are called on to give a vote upon it — I say We ought to know something move with reference to this important matter. (Hear, hear). Hon. gentlemen may perhaps argue that there is no necessity for this question going to the people — no necessity for -further time being allowed to the people of Upper Canada or of Canada generally to consider this matter. Why, hon. gentlemen, has it not been stated by every hon. member who has taken the floor to address the House on this question, that it is the most impor tant question ever submitted to this or any other British Colonial Legislature ? And yet many of those hon. members are unwilling that the people of this country should have any further time to consider this important matter — although, by the laws of our land, no municipality has a right to enact or pass a by-law creating a little petty debt, not to be paid off within a year, without submitting it first to the vote of the people. (Hear.) Hon. gentlemen assign as a reason why the matter should not be submitted to the people — that we have had a number of elections to this House since it was known that the scheme of Confederation was under the consideration of the Government, and that these elections went favorably to the scheme. I would ask, hon. gentlemen, how many elections have we had in Upper Canada since the scheme was printed and laid before tho people ? I would like to see the hon. gentleman stand up, who has been elected to come here to vote upon this scheme since itwas submitted to tbe people. It is true we have had one election in Upper Canada since that time — my hon. friend near me (Hon. Mr. Simpson) alluded to it yesterday — the election in South Ontario, a constituency until recently repre sented by one of the hon. gentlemen who entered the Ministry which brings this scheme before us — our present esteemed Vice-Chanceller of Upper Canada, Hon. Mr. Mowat. What did the candidates say at that election ? Both of them, as stated by my honorable friend, in asking ' tbe suf frages of the people, had to promise that, if elected to Parliament, they would vote for a submission of this scheme to the people. (Hear, hear.) And that is the last election we have had in Upper Canada. It is true that many honorable gentlemen now present, in their addresses to their several constituencies, wheu seeking election last fall, aaid they were in favor of a union of the British North American Provinces. But, hon. gentlemen, there is not a man in this chamber, within the sound of my voice, who would not say the same. I am myself as much in favor of Confederation to-day as evir I was in my life ; and I will challenge any one to say that at any time, on any public occasion, I ever said aught against the scheme of the Confederation of the British North American Provinces. (Hear, hear.) But, honorable gentlemen, when I look at this scheme, imperfect as I conceive it to be, it receives my opposition, not because it is a scheme for the Confederation of British North America, but because it is a scheme containing within itself the germs of ite 275 destruction. The resolution before the House is not, as I said beforo, aimed at the destruction of the scheme ; and I hope, before the debate closes, the Government ¦wiU see the propriety and the advisability of granting the reasonable delay therein asked for. Suppose the Government concedes even the short delay of one month, it can do no possible harm to the measure. If the mea sure be good — if it be so desirable as the governments of the respective provinces tell us it is — the simple permitting it to stand over for a month will certainly not destroy it. If, on the other hand, it be bad — if it contain within itself the elements of decay — it is better to know it now than hereafter, when the resolutions will have been embodied in a Statute over which we have no control. To shew my own feeling in the matter, all I have to say is this : give a reasonable delay — allow the section of the country I have the honor to represent to speak on the subject, and if it be found to be the will of my constituents that the measure in its present shape be adopted, honorable gentle men may be assured that I shall give them no further opposition ; and that instead of doing everything in my power to impede the progress of these resolutions, I will do nqthing to impede their progress through the House. " But," say hon. gentlemen, " delay means defeat." If it be a good measure — if it commend itself to the approval ofthe people, supported as it is by the most able and brilliant men in ParUament — the scheme is in no danger. And, hon. gentlemen, sup posing a month'a delay is granted, we will even then be further advanced with the measure than the people of the eastern pro vinces. The writs for the elections in New Brunswick are returnable, if I mistake not, on tbe 25th March. Hon. Mr. CAMPBELL — On the 9th March. Hon. Mr. CURRIE— Then it wiU be at least the 21st or 22nd of March before the Legislature of that colony can be called together. Hon. Mr. CAMPBELL — I misunder- stood the statement made by my hon. friend. What I meant to say was that the Legislature of New Brunswick is expected to assemble on the Sth or 9th of March. Hon.,Mr. CURRIE— Then they are going to hurry up matters there, I am sor^y to hear, nearly as fast as in Canada, the people of which havo not had the same opportunity, at all events, of considering the question as the people of New Brunswick. The people of New Brunswick seem to be fully alive to the importance of this momentous question, and I hope that when their verdict is given it will be a well-considered verdict ; but this we do know, that it will not be given until after a free and fair opportunity has been afforded them of discussing the question on its merits in all its bearings. My hon. friend from the Western Division (Hon. Mr. McCrea) really surprised me the other day when he declared that an elective Legislative Council was neither asked for nor desired by the people. My recollection is that the Council under the nominative system was a standing grievance in Lower Canada as well as in Upper Canada. Hon, Mr. McCREA— That was before the union. Hon. Mr. CURRIE— The demand arose that the Council should be elective. Hon. Mr. McCREA — Not after the union. Hon. Mr. CURRIE— My hon. friend is, I can assure him, mistaken in stating that there were no petitions in favor of an elective Legislative Council at the time of the change. If my hon. friend will consult the Journals of Parliament, he will find there petitions for the change ; he will find also that from the town of Cobourg a, petition was received in favor of representation by population in this as well as in the other branch of the Legislature. But my hon. friend, in his igno rance of the facts of the case^although he certainly handled the subject with a good deal of ability, though not with the ability he usually puts torth when he has a good cause to plead — (a laugh) — made a state ment whioh he could scarcely have considered before bringing it under the notice ot the House. He said that a House appointed by the Crown would be more responsible to the people than the present House. That, hon. gentlemen, ia certainly a new doctrine to me. If such would be the case, why, I ask, do you not apply the same syatem, to the other branch of the Legialature ? In aueh an event I feel assured that the Government ofthe day would have a much more comfort able and pleaaant life of it than even the preaent Government, atrong and talented as they undoubtedly are. (Laughter.) But, aaya my hon. friend, once more, the people of Canada are in favor of the scheme, in regard to which they have had ample time 276 for holding meetings and adopting petitions. But, I would ask what did most of the mem bers even of this House know of the scheme when they first came to Quebec ? Did we know as much about it then as we know now? Hon. Mr. ROSS— Yea. Hon. Mr. CURRIE- My hon. friend from Toronto says, " Yes." An Hon. MEMBER— No. Hon. Mr. CURRIE — Another hon. mem ber replies, " no." I may say for myself that I have learned something even from the speech of my hon. friend from Toronto that I did not know before. The people of the country have been waiting, expecting this matter would be discussed in Parliament, and that the whole scheme would be presented so as to enable its being judged of as a whole. Unfortunately, however, it is only a part of the scheme which we have at this moment before the Council. I did not have the plea sure of hearing the whole of the remarks of my hon. friend from Montreal (Hon. Mr. Ferrier), but I was greatly interested in listening to the portion I did hear. I refer to what he said respecting the ministerial crisis in June last. I thought that the cele brated memorandum, which, by the bye, has since been in great part repudiated by the Government of the day, contained all the Ministerial explanations. But that scene, so forcibly described by the hon. gentleman, where the President of the Council met the Attorney General East — Hon. Mr. FERRIER— I did not say I saw it. I only heard of it. Hon. Mr. CURRIE— When the Hon. Mr. Cartier embraced the Hon. Mr. Brown. (Laughter.) Hon. Mr. FERRIER— I simply said it was so reported on the streets. Hon.Mr. CURRIE— And the Hon. Mr. Brown promised eternal allegiance to the Hon. Mr. Cartier. (Laughter.) Hon. Mil. FERRIER — I was simply giving the on-dit of the day. I said I knew nothing whatever of it further than what I had heard on the streets. Hon. Mr. CURRIE — I must have mia- underatood my hon. friend. I thought he was a witneas of the affecting scene. (Laughter.) But my hon. friend did tell the House Bomethiug which was new to me, and which must have aounded aa new to the country, when he said that the Grand Trunk Railway cost the people of Canada very little. The hon. gentleman seemed to think that I was very much opposed to the Grand Trunk. But never in my life have I spoken a single word against the Grand Trunk as a railway. I believe there is no hon. gentle man who can possibly appreciate more highly the commercial advantages to this country of that work than I do. At the same time, I have taken occasion, and may do so again if the necessity requires it, to apeak of some of the transactiona connected with that undertaking. Let this work or any other public work come under the atten tion of this Chamber, and it will receive at my hands in the future, as in the past, that degree of consideration to which as a public work it is entitled. I hope the day is not far distant when the Grand Trunk will become what it ought to be, a strictly and entirely commercial work, and when the people of all classea and partiea will look upon it with favor. Hon. Mr. FERRIER— It is strictly a commercial work now. Hon. Mr. CURRIE— My hon. friend stated that it had cost the country a mere trifle. But unluckily the Public Accounta do not tell the same story, and they do not exactly confirm the views of my hon. friend in relation to this work. If he looks at the asaeta of fhe province — the valuables of the province — he will find there ia a charge against the Grand Trunk of $15,142,000 for debentures. And besides there is this little $100,000 which has besn used in re deeming the city of Montreal bonds. There is something more besides about subsidiary lines. Hon. Mr. FERRIBR— I spoke of the first capital investment. Hon. Mr. CURRIE— My hon. friend from the Erie Division (Hon. Mr. Christie) admitted in opening his caae that this scheme was very much marred by its details. Ad mitting this — which is just the whole argu ment — that the details so greatly mar the acheme, it is much to be feared that the measure will not work so peacefully, use fully, or harmoniously as its originators expected, and 1 believe sincerely hoped it would do ; because I do these hon. gentlemen the credit of believing that in devising a scheme which should be for the future as well as the present welfare of the country, they were animated by a desire to do the very best they could under the circumstances. Their great error, in my opinion, lay in 277 their yielding too much on the part of Canada to gratify the eastern provinces, so as to enable them to bring about this scheme at the present moment. If the scheme is so marred in its details as to destroy the whole measure, why not reject it? Then my hon. friend alluded to the state of the country, just before the present Government was formed, in terms which I hardly think he was justified in using. He claimed that the country was in a state of anarchy and confusion. Now, hon. gentlemen, I must say that for my part I saw none of that anarchy, and I must say very little of that confusion. I assert that there may be witnessed in other lands what was witnessed in this. We saw weak govern ments striving month after month to keep themselves in power, and we saw these governments daily and hourly attacked by a strong and wary opposition. But, hon. gentlemen, I bave yet to learn that the giving of 17 additional members to Upper Canada and 47 members to the eastern pro vinces will ensure us against the same state of things in the future. Ic was very well put by the hon. member for WeUington (Hon. Mr. Sanborn) when he said, if there was more patriotism on the part of our public men, and less desire to sacrifice the country for the good of party, we would not have had that state of confusion to whioh my hon. friend from the Erie Division has alluded. Then my hon. friend who represents the Erie Division, in order to fortify the poaition he took in supporting the scheme, took up the resolutions adopted by the Toronto Re form Convention in 1859. He stated that I was a delegate present at that convention ; but I can only say that, although elected a delegate, I took no part in the proceedings, and know nothing more of them than I learned from the public prints. The hon. gentleman, however, conveniently read only a part of the resolutions. But it must be ad mitted that these resolutions were the iden tical basis upon which the present Govem ment was organized. This Government was organized for the express purpose of carrying out the arrangements embodied in the resolutions of that body. And, hon. gentlemen, a committee waa appointed by the Toronto Convention, and that committee prepared a draft address to the public. That was submitted to the executive committee, and conaidered on the 15th of February, 1860, and was revised and sent to the country as the address of theTconvention, of which the hon. member for Erie was a member, and over which he also presided as one of the vice-chairmen. And what did they say ? That convention never intended that Parliament should change the Constitution or give us a new Constitution without consulting the people and allowing the public an oppor tunity of passing its judgment upon the pro posed new Constitution. And how did this convention propose to secure the people the right of passing judgment upon so impor tant a scheme as the adoption of a new Constitution ? Here it is, in large type — and I have no doubt my hon. friend has often read it in going through his large, wealthy, and prosperous division. Hon. Mr. CHRISTIE— It was not pre sented to the convention. Hon. Mr. CURRIE— I wiah to put my hon. friend right. The meeting waa held on the 23rd September, 1859, and waa preaided over by the late Hon. Adam Fer gusson; and my hon, friend, the member for Erie Diviaion, and Mr. D. A. Macdon ald were vice-preaidenta. A special com mittee waa appointed at that meeting to draft an addreaa to the people of Upper Canada on the political affairs of the pro vince in support of the resolutions then adopted. A draft of the address was sub mitted to the executive committee. Hon. Mr. CHRISTIE— I was not a member of that committee. Hon. Mr. CURRIE— The public meeting was held on the 15th February, 1860. Hon. Mr. CHRISTIE— And when was the address published ? Hon. Mr. CURRIE— It was published in thia ahape in February, 1860. Well, one of the proviaiona contained in that address was this : — " Secure these rights by a writ ten Constitution, ratified by the people, and incapable of alteration except by their for mal sanction." Hon. gentlemen, I fear the hon. member for Erie Division will hardly be able to juatify the course he feels called upon to take on this occ aaion by anything contained in the address or the resolutions of the Toronto convention. The hon. gentleman would never have thought of preparing such a scheme as this to be submitted to the members of such a convention. But think you that had such a scheme been presented they would not have demanded that it should be left to the people ? Think you, hon. gentlemen, that that scheme would have met the approval 278 of that body in its present shape? I am sure that niy hon. friend, warm as h« now is in support of the scheme, could hardly have accepted such an issue. I am sure that even the present Government, backed as they are by a large majority in both branches ofthe Legislature, and possessing as they do a large amount of the talent, — I may say a majority of the talent — of Parliament, da.re not bring such resolutions down as a Government measure and ask the Legis lature to support them in carrying it through. Then my hon. friend thought that the scheme had gone through the length and breadth of the land. Hou. gentlemen, it ia quite true that the reaolutiona have gone through the length and breadth of the land ; but where has there been that discussion in Canada to which resolutions of so much importance are entitled — except in Lower Canada, where I am told that fifteen counties have repudiated the resolutions wheu they were subfliitted to public meetings ? And in Upper Canada, where is the single instance of discussion of the facts having taken place except in the city of Toronto, where there waa little or no discussion, and where it was promised that that city, like Quebec, should be made the seat of one of the local govern ments ? I understood my hon. friend from Erie Division to take issue on the fact that the delegates to the Conference were not self-elected, and I heard my hon. friend from Montreal deny it also. But if you take up a copy of the resolutions and the des patches accompanying them, you will find that they were in every sense of the word self-elected. And if they were not self- elected, who deputed them to come and do what I they have done ? Did the basis on which the Government was formed authorize them to enter into this compact ? The basis on which the Government was formed speaks for itself. The measure they promised the people of Upper Canada was simply a measure to settle the existing difliculties between Upper and Lower Canada. They were to form Upper and Lower Canada into a Federation upon such a basis as would here after allow the other provinces, if agreeable, and jf they could agree as to terms, to also enter the Federation. These are the bases on whioh the present Government was form ed, and these are the bases on which the meijub^rs of that Government went to the oountry and asked for the support of their constituents. And to bear me out in this assertion, I have only to read the language of His ExceUency the Governor iS-eneral as I find it embodied in His Excellency's Speech at the close of the last session of Parliament. You will find it in the latter part of the Speech. His Excellency says : — " The time has arrived when the constitutional question, which has for many years agitatad this prov ince, is ripe for settlement." What prov ince is alluded to in this paragraph ? Most certainly the province of Canada. "It is my intention," proceeds His Excellency, " during the approaohing recess, to endeavor +0 devise a plan for this purpose, which will be laid before Parliament at its next meet ing." Hon. gentlemen, where is that plan ? Where is the measure so prornised in the Speech from the Throne . " In releasing you from further attendance," His Excellency goes on to say, "I would impress upon you the importance of using the influence which the confidence of your fellow subjects con fers upon you to secure for any scheme which may be prepared with this object a calm and impartial consideration both in Parliament and throughout the country." Now, what does this mean ? If it means anything, it means this, that the Government pro mised to bring down a measure to this Legislature to enable us to ConfederateUpper and Lower Canada. "Well," hon. gentlemen say, " they have brought down a larger scheme." Yes, but wbo asked them to bring down that scheme ? It is aaid that it makea no difference which acheme waa laid before the House ; but I coutend that it makea all the difference, for if these resolutions had reference simply to Upper and Lower Cana da, they would be susceptible of amend ment by this House. In such a case, hon. gentlemen would not have come down as we now see them shaking their resolutions in the face of the members of the Legislature, and saying, " Here is a treaty which you must accept in its entirety or not at all." They would not be warning us at our peril to alter a word or erase a line on pain of being branded as disunionists, or perhaps aomething worse than that. Had they brought down the resolutions they were pledged to bring down, we would be sitting here calmly and dispassionately, aided by the Government of the day, framing a measure whioh would be in very deed for the benefit of the two provinces. But why do the Q-overnment seek to shelter theln- selves so conipletely behind these fesblu- 279 tions — resolutions which, as they stand, are incapable of justification — refeolutiohs which shew concession after concession to have been made to the eastern provinces, but not one of which (I challenge them to the proof) was made by the Lower Pro vinces to the people of Canada ? Then look at the representation at the Conference. Both parties, I believe, from all the provinces were represented, except as regards one sec tion of Canada. There was no one repre senting in the Conference the Liberal party in Lower Canada. (Hear, hear.) While in the eastern provinces the Government of the day were magnanimous enough to ask the cooperation and consideration of the leaders of the Opposition in those provinces, the hon. gentlemen in Canada ignored entirely the existence of the Liberal party in Lower Canada. (Hear, hear.) My hon. friend from the Erie Division tells us that he is strongly opposed to the details of the Hon. Mr. CHRISTIE— I did not say so. I stated in reference to the electi-ve principle that I was opposed to its abro gation. Hon, Mr. CURRIE— If the hon. gentle man feels towards the elective principle as strongly aa I do, he will oppoae its abro gation to the laat. I have reason to feel strongly in regard to that principle, being, like himself, indebted for it to a seat in the Le gislature ; and I will reai'at the meaaure very long before I vote againat a principle giving the people power to aend me here as their representative. The hon. gentleman alsO told us that the whole country is in favor of Federation. I have no doubt the whole coun try is in favor of Federation in itaelf, but there are many people throughout Canada who are opposed to the present scheme on account of its details. Then the hon. gentleman declared that the country underatood the acheme. Now, What better illustration can we have of the falsity of this position than what was Witiiesaed on the floor of this House last night ? We th^u heard one of the most intel- ligentandone of themost able members ofthe mercantile community in Upper Canada/ my hon. friend from Ottawa Division (Hon. Mr. Skead) tell us it was only within the last twenty-four hours that he had understood the scheme as now submitted to the House. And yetwe are gravely told that the whole oountry understands it ! Do the people ot the pro vince generally know anythiilg in reference to the cost of working the scheme? Hon. gentlemen, it has been stated in various parts of the oountry, by leading public men of thfe country, that the loCal subsidies proposed in the scheme will be more than suflicient to carry on the local governments of the several provinces. But, hon. gentlemen^ we must judge of the future by the experience afforded by the past. If you will look at the Public Accounts of Upper and Lower Canada — take for instance Upper Canad-i in 1838,-^-^ you will find that the expenditure ou 450,000 of a p.ipulation was $885,000 for one year. But hon. gentlemen may assert that at that time LTpper Canada had to bear the burdens of the militia and pay the cost of collecting the customs, and some other small charges which it is now proposed to throw on the Federal Govemment. But What WeVe the charges of the militia for that year ? The insigniflcant sum of £649. 19s. 11 Jd. Then there was received from fees and coniniissibns £817 15s., thus making the total cost of the militia to Upper Canada no more than £332. 4s. Hid. Then as to custoriis. Why, honorable gentlemen, the whole cost of collecting the customs revenue in Upjier Canada, during the year 1838, amonntfed to £2,792. 14s. 2d. — just about one hklf the cost, hardly one half the cost — of collecting the .present duties at the port of Toronto. Then if you come down to Lower Canada you will find that at the time of the union you had a population of 650,000 aouls, and that the expehse of governing the people was $5'73,348. And I venture to aay that no people in the World -were ever more cheaply governed than were the people of Lower Canada beforO the union. (Hear, hear.) But if you can govern theni afteirthe union' juat as cheaply per head as before, Wh'dt do you find ? You will reqiiire $980,000 to carry on the government of thig country',' independent of paying the int'ei'est upon' tfie large portion of debt Sa,ddled ilpon yoii; Iu Upper Cauaida, -we have beeki told that we really shall not know \»hat tb do with the large amount of money about td be laviahe^d on the Local Legislature. (Laughter.) Hon. Mr. McCREA— Who said that— that we would have more money than we know what to do with ? Hon. Mr. CURRIE— You must have read it in the speeches made in the other House, and particularly in the speeches of the Hon. Mr. Brown. Well, if we can govern the people of Upper Canada as dheitp- 280 ly after the union as before, it will cost 82,170,000 or $1,054,000 more than the amount of the local subsidy. I am sure no hon. gentleman will believe that we are going to be more saving of the public money in the future than we were in those early days of our history. Hon. gentlemen, itis said that the people ofthe country have had those resolutions before them, that they perfectly understand them, and that they are pre pared to pass a dispassionate judgment in the matter. It ill becomes the members of the Government to make such a statement. Why, what has been witnessed on the floor of this House ? A simple question was put to the Hon. Commissioner of Crown Lands as to the manner in which the members of the Legislative Councils of the various pro vinces were to be appointed. The Hon. Commissioner informed us that the appoint ments were to be made by the local govern ments, and he was confirmed in that view by the hon. and gallant Premier, who had the dignity conferred upon him of presiding over the Conference of delegates held in this city. Hon. Mr. CAMPBELL— I do not think that my hon. colleague said anything on the subject. Hon. Mr. CURRIE— I understood him to confirm the statement of the Hon. Com missioner of Crown Lands; But at all events, he heard the statement and did not object to it. But what did you find ? After the absurdity of that position was pointed out, my hon. friend, the Commissioner of Crown Lands, asks a day to give an answer. to the question, and he comes down next day and gives a totally different reply. A few days later, the question of the export duty on the minerals of Nova Scotia came under consideration, and I understood the Hon. Commissioner of Crown Lands as saying that in his opinion only the coal and minerals exported to foreign countries would be liable to duty. But according to the explanations given by the hon. gentleman afterwards, I understand that the export duty will apply to all coal and minerals exported from Nova Scotia. My hon. friend went on to explain the meaning of this export duty. And what is his explanation ? He tells us that it is nothing more than a royalty. The export duty is imposed simply upon the coal which leave the country. In Nova Scotia they now impose a royalty, and tbat royalty they intend to change for an export duty, and the difference in their favor will be this — that on the coal they consume themselv^es there will be no duty, but on the coal they send to Canada there will be this barrier of an export duty. Hon. Mr. ROSS— My hon. friend will see this, that had all the Crown lands in the different colonies been placed in the hands of the General Government, the General Government would have received all the proceeda therefrom. But those have been given to the local governments, and as in Upper Canada we will have timber dues, so in Nova Scotia they are entitled to a revenue from their coal. Hon. Mr. CURRIE— Any one not ac- quanted with the subject would naturally fancy from the language of my hon. friend that under Federation we are to have some thing which we did not possess before. But the Crown lands are the property of Upper and Lower Canada now, and we are entitled to the revenue from them. Hon. Mr. ROSS — And so is Nova Scotia entitled to a revenue from their coal. Hon. Mr. CURRIE —But you give them a privilege not accorded to the other pro vinces of imposing export duties. Hon. gentlemen, I would now desire to allude to another matter whioh I think the people do not thoroughly understand, and that is the apportionment of the public debt. I stated before and I again assert that revenue is the only true basis on which the people should go into Confederation as regards their debt ; and I think my hon. friend from the Saugeen Division (Hon. Mr. Macpherson) saw the matter in the same light. Hon. Mr MACPHERSON— Not in this case, because we have not the revenue to base it upon. Hon. Mr. CURRIE— Why have we not the revenue to base it upon ? Hon. gentle men, the Trade Returns of Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, and Prince Edward Island, are in the Library below, and twenty-four hours' work of a competent accountant would shew what each province would contribute to the general revenue from h«r trade under our present tariff. Hon. Mr. CA.MPBELL— But does not the hon. gentleman see that when the tariffs are assimilated, they will not bring in the future what they have brought in the past ? Hon. Mr. GUBRIE — This I can see, that you are giving to the Lower Provinces pri vileges which we do not enjoy Hon. gen. 281 tlemen speak of the imports from the Mari time Provinces. But take the import of coal from Nova Scotia, and we flnd that in 1863, its whole value amounted to $67,000. Then they refer to the fish trade. But why need we go there for fish, when in our own waters we can have for the catching as fine fish as the world produces ? But Confedera tion will give us no privileges over the fisheries which w^ do not at present enjoy. Canadian fishermen can as well go, and have as much the right to go, and fish in the waters below before as after Confederation. We will continue to go there if we desire it, not because we are members of the Confede racy, but because we are British subjects. But I was going to speak of the trade of these countries. \Ve derive now little or no duty from the trade of tho Lower Provinces, at the same time much of the revenues of the Lower Provinces is derived from exports from those provinces to each other, all of which will be lost to the General Government, as tbe Confederation will only be entitled to collect duties on goods imported from foreign countries. We are told, too, that our tariff if to be greatly reduced under Confederation. I am sorry to hear tbat statement, because it is impossible that it can be correct, and there is too much reason to fear that it was done with a view of influencing legislation elsewhere, by holding out the hope in New foundland and in the other provinces, that if they joined us, the tariff would be less burdensome than it is at present. But if the tariff is reduced, the people of Canada may rest assured that they will have $4,000,000 or $5,000,000 to raise in some other way ; so that if you take it off the tariff, you must put it on tbe land. I wish now, however, to speak of the unfair appor tionment of the debt. I havo always taken the ground that revenue is the true gauge by which you can measure a nation's abi lity to pay debt. Well, taking the tables of the Finance Minister, we find that New Brunswick, with a revenue of $1,000,000, goes into the Confederation with a debt of $7,000,000, while Canada, with a revenue of $11,500,000, is only entitled to go into the Confederation with a debt of $62,500,000. Is this fair ? — is it right ? — is it honest ? Take the revenue as the basis' of abUity to pay — and it is the only true, basis — and instead of Canada going into the Con federation with a debt only $62,500,000 she would be entitled to go in with a deb^ 37 of $80,000,000, or more than her present indebtedness. Then it is said that tbe people understand the whole scheme, and that they are perfectly satisfied with it. If that were so we should have petitions coming down. But I have yet tj learn that, when the people, especially of Upper Canada, understand the scheme and how it is going to work, they will be at all satisfied with it. Take the little Island of Prince Edward, with its population of 80,857 souls, or a less population than a single constituency repre sented in the other branch of the Legis lature, and we find it getting $153,728, while it is relieved of a debt of $240,633. Hon. Mr. CAMPBELL - And what does it contribute ? Hon. Mr. CURRIE— It simply contri butes custom and excise duties by the operation of the same tariff and under the same law as the people of Canada. Hon. Mr. CAMPBELL — But how much does it contribute ? Hon. Mr. CURRIK - I ficid the whole revenue of the island set down at $200,000. Rut, hon. gentlemen, pray do not run away with the idea that all this comes to the Con federate Government. All that comes to the Goni'ederate Government are simply the duties from excise aud customs ou goods im ported from loreign countries. Uos. Mii. CA.MPBELL — Whioh is the whole amount of their revenue, except $31 OUO. Hon. Mr. CURRIE — Surely my hon. friend does not wish to get up and argue that the people of this little island — a frugal and industrious people — contribute more to the revenue per head than the people of Upper Canada ? Well, let ua proceed now to Newfoundland, and what do we find ? That with a population of 122,600 souls — less than the population of Huron, Bruce and Grey — less, in fact, than the constituency represented by my hon. friend, the member for Saugeen — they get $369,000 a year for all time, and are relieved of a debt of $946,000. Hon. Mr. CAMPBELL— And what do they contribute ? Hon. Mr. CURRIE — Simply tue revenue from customs and excise, and nothing more. Hon. Mr. CAMPBELL— And what does that amount to ? Hon. Mr. CURRIE — I am aware that — Hon. Mr. CAMPBELL— They will con tribute, under the present tariff, $479,000 per annum. 282 Hon. Mit. CURRIE— My hon. friend surely docs not intend to say th:it Newfound land has no other source ot revenue than customs and exc'se ? Hon. Mr. CAMPBELL— No other; and that is the reason why they get $150,000. Hon. Mr. CURRIE— Newfoundland is to have $106,000 a year, not for this year only, but for all time to come. She gets as well 80 cents per head for all time to come. Then she gets also, what I am sure the Commissioner of Crown Lands can hardly justify, that ia a bonus of $165,000 for all time to come ; and this, if capilatized, amounts to $3,000,000 — and all this that she may come into the Confederation. And why does she receive so large a sum ? My hon. friend tells us tbat she gets it in consideration of the valuable Crown lands and minerals whicii she surrenders to the General Government. But we have yet to learn as a matter of fact that a ton of coal has ever been raised in the island. And what otber minerals have they ? We know of none. Their Crown lands, too, are of no value, as is proved by their not having yielded anything at all for many years past. Then why should we give them $3,000,000, or $165,000 per year for worthless lands ? I will not say, however, tbat they arc altogether worthless ; but I know this, that for years past a statute has been in force, giving the lands free of charge to anybody who will go and settle on them for five years. And these are the valuable lands for wbich we are to pay an equivalent of $3,000,000. But my hon. friend the Commissioner of Crown Lands, perhaps, when he addresses the House, will tell us these Crown lands and minerals, whatever their value to Newfoundland, are worth $8,000,000 to the Confederation, and will argue as that they give up these lands and minerals, and have no local s.jurce of reve nue, it is necessary they should receive this subsidy in return . But why have they no local source of revenue ? Why not adopt the same means to raise revenue in Newfound land that we adopt here ? Why should we he called upon to contribute from the public chest $165,000 for a purpose that we in Canada tax ourselves for ? Hon. gentlemen, I stated that the country was taken by sur prise in regard to the manner in which this measure was brought down to the House ; and I think I have good reason for making that statement. Before we came here we had very little explanation of the financial part ofthe scheme; and that is a most important part. I am not ono of those who, while fa vorable to Confederation as a principle, would put a few hundred thousand dollars in the scale against it. But my grounds against the scheme are these — that if it is commenced upon a basis which is unjust to one portion of the community, it will be based upon a false foundation, and the tenement thus proposed to be erected will not withstand the breath of public opinion. Wo bad reason te suppose that when we came here the measure promised at the close of the last session would be submitted; but instead of that we have a very different measure altogether. But supposing this Address passes — suppo-ing these resolutions are carried, and the other colonies do not concur in the same Address as ourselves, what is to be the consequence ? As I underatand it, the consent of all the pro vinces must be had, and if they do not concur, the scheme falls to the ground. What we ought to have had in Canada was the promised measure to put an end to the sectional difficulties between Upper and Lower Canada. But, instead of that, we are placed in consequence of the Quebec Con ference in this position — a scheme is brought down which is declared to be in the nature of a treaty, and we are told that we are to have no voice in its alteration. No matter what the details my be — our discussion of them is to be a mere farce. Even the reasonable delay I am now asking for will, I fear, be opposed by the Government of the day. Hon. gentlemen, in order to shew the necessity which exists for the measure being equitable and just to all classes of the people and all sections of the country about to be affected by it, I will read the remarks of a distinguished statesman — one of the ablest men, perhaps, that Canada can claim. This is his language : — No measure could possibly meet the. approval of the people of Canada which contained within it the germs of injustice to any, and if, in the measure which was now before the people of Canada, there was anything which bore on its face injustice, it would operate greatly against the success of the meaaure itself. These were the views of the Minister of Finance as expressed by him only a few months ago, and it is because I feel that there are parts of the scheme which will do gross and wanton injustice to portiona of the proposed Confederation, that I feel it to 283 be my duty to oppose it. It may be said that it is not proper for this branch of the Legislature to delay the measure, but I quite concur, on this point, in the views of fhe hon. gentleman who represents one of the largest and most important constituencies in Canada (Hon. Mr. Macpherson), when he said : — Although the Legislative Council is precluded by this Constitution fiom originating money votes or making money appropriations of any kind, they have it neverthelesa in their power zealoualy to guard your intereata, protecting them againat haaty and ill-conaidered legislation, and prevent ing improper and extravagant appropriations of the public funds. Hon. Mr. MACPHERSON— I approve of all that. Hon. Mr. CURRIE— I fully concur in all the hon. member from Saugeen stated in his address to his constituents, with reference to this subject, and I hope the hon. gentle man will now, when the opportunity is offered him, act up to the professions he made, and I feel confident he will do so. Now, hon. gentlemen, what have we here before us ? We have a scheme which is calculated to do manifest and untold injustice to that section of the province which the hon. gentleman has the honor to represent. We have a scheme pledging us to construct the Inter colonial Railway without our knowing whe ther it is to cost fifteen, twenty or thirty millions of dollars. The only estimate is that alluded to by the hon. member from Toronto, who stated that Mr. Brydges was prepared to build it for seventeen and a half millions of dollars. Hon. Mr. MACPHERSON— This House has nothing to do with money matters. Hon. Mr. CURRIE— If my hon. friend entertains that opinion, be will very soon learn a very different and important lesson respecting the privileges of this House. It is our duty as honest legislators to protect the country from the baneful effects of hasty and ill-considered legislation. Well, is not this hasty legislation that is uow proposed to be transacted by the Government of the day ? Hon. Mr. MACPHERSON.— I do not regard it so, and I tell you why. My con stituents ,have considered the queation and jire tully satisfied that the proposed legisla tion should take place. Hon. Mr. CURRIE- It has been said by fcon. gentlemen that the whole scheme con sists of concessions. I would ask what con cessions have been made to Canada? What concession has been made to the views of the people of Upper Canada ? The people will understand why it is that everything was conceded on tbe part of Canada, and compara tively nothing on (he part of the Lower Pro vinces, when they know that the little colony of Prince Edward Island, with its eighty thousand people, has as much to say in the Conference as Upper Canada with its million and a half, and as Lower Canada with its million and a quarter of people. (Hear, hear.) When we conceded to them that point, the series of concessions on the part of Canada began. Then we conceded to them the right of depriving us of an elective Legislative Council. (Hear, hear.) Who challenges this statement ? I defy any hon. gentlemen to say flrat it was not at the dic tation of the eastern provinces, that the character of the Legislative Council was changed. In order to settle this point, it is only necessary to refer hon. gentlemen to what the Hon. Minister of Finance stated in his celebrated Sherhrooke speech with refer ence to it. That was concession number two. Then look at the proposed Constitution. The Lower Provinces had only a population of 700,000 people. One would think they would be satisfied with the samo repre sentation in the Legislative Council that Upper Canada wich double the nuinber of people should have, and that Lower Canada with nearly double the population should be given. But instead of being satisfied with 24, they must have 28 members. There arc three distinct and most important con cessions on the part of Canada to the people of the eastern provinces. And then we go into the Federation with a debt of only $62,500,000, instead of with $82,500,000 as we were entitled to. Then we are to saddle ourselves with a burden of $15,000,- 000, and give them a bonus for coming in, in the shape of an annual payment for local purposes, which we defray in Upper Canada by direct taxation. Hon. Mr. McCREA — That is because they are to help to pay our debt. Hon. Mr. CURRIE—My honorable friend from the West-ern Division says, they have to help to pay our debt ; true they have to help to pay the debts of the Confederation, but that is no reason wby they should receive money from us to pay their local expenses. Then look at the absurdity of giving each 284. province so much per head on its population for the expenses of the local governments. Every one knows that the population of the Lower Provinces will not increase nearly so fast as that of this province. We will there fore have to pay a greater proportion of this amount through the increase of our popula tion than we can receive under the proposed arrangement. This is concession number four. The next concession is to New Bruns wick. We are to give New Brunswick a bonus of $630,000 in addition to building the Intercolonial Railway through a long sec tion of the country — leading the people to believe that the ro.id is to pass through nearly every town in the province. Then Nova Sootia gets the right to impose an export duty on its coal and other minerals coming into Upper Canada, or going else where. Then Newfoundland, as I have said before, is to have upward of three millions of dollars, if you capitalize the annual gift, as an inducement to come in and join us. Then, hon. gentlemeg, my hon. friend from Port Hope spoke of the common schools of Canada, of about one million and a quarter of dollars that is to be abolished by a stroke o the pen — that i^j another concession, I suppose, made to the people of tho eastern provin- Cfs. What do we get for all these conces sions ? Do we get anything that we are not entitled to as a matter of right. We get 17 additional members of the Lower House for Upper Canada — but that is nothing more than we are entitled to — at tbe same time that we get 47 added from tbe east. We are told that the leason for having so large a number of members is to avoid narrow majorities. If everything works well, therefore, under the new consti tution, we are told we will always have a strong Government, somewhat similar to that with which we are now blessed. Hon. gentlemen say, that this question is perfectly understood by the people of Canada, and that they are satisfied with the arrangement ; then what danger, 1 would ask, can there be in allowing the people a few months to consider the matter still more fully ? In my opinion, it is far better to take the thing up deliberately and proceed cautiously with it, than to attempt to forco a measure upon the people, so hurriedly, that they will feel hereafter, if they do not now, that you are doing them a very great injustice. (Hear, hear.) It is most extraordinary, the grounds on which these resolutions are supported by different classes of people. Some hon. gentlemen support them on the ground that the Confederation is to build up an inde pendent nationality in this part of the world. Others, on the ground that it is going to cement us more closely as colonies. And a third party uphold the resolutions on the ground that the injustice of the thing will disgust the people and float our country over to the American Republic. I feel my self that unless the people have due time to consider the matter, and are not driven into it against their will, these resolutions will amount to nothing more than so many withes to tie the provinces together until we all drift like a raft into the American Con federation. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) Hon. Mr. DICKSON— Honorable gentle men, — Every honorable member of this House must be aware of the difficulties which an in dividual member has to encounter in rising to address the House at this lato period of tho debate, when the subject, after a fortnight's discussion, is almost exhausted. I have, how ever, refrained from offering any observations at an earlier stage, in consequence of a desire to confine my remarks more particularly to the principle embodied in the amenjiment of my honorable and learned friend from the Niagara Division. I shall now briefiy refer to the in troductory remarks of the honorable and gal lant Knight at the head of the present Gov ernment, when he submitted the matter for the consideration of this honorable House. That honorable gentleman told us th at the unsatis factory state of things which had existed in the politics of this country for the twenty-five months prior to the Tach^-Macdonald Ad ministration, rendered it necessary that some great political exertion should be made to remedy those difl&culties. Well, gentlemen, what were those difliculties ? Why, it was that five different administrations had been formed, and five different administrations had been unable to carry on the administration of public affairs, and had either resigned or become so weak, in consequence of their small majority in the popular branch, that they could not conduct the Govemment in a satis factory manner. The TachiS-Macdonald Government had arrived at the same state as the five preceding administrations, and finding themselves in this political dilemma, were again about appealing to the country, when a " still, small voice " was heard in the distance; and what was that " stUl, smaU voice," and where did it coma from? It was the voice of a great man, and came from an individual who solicited an opportunity of 285 pouring oil on the troubled political waters. (Hear, hear.) Permission was granted, the oil poured on ; the effect was miraculous — the commotion ceased, and a calm succeeded — a circumstance which caused no surprise when it was discovered, as it speedily was, that the magical oil came fresh from the weUs of Both- weU. (Great laughter.) The Government, as the honorable and gallant Knight told us, received a communication from the "real chief" of the Opposition. And there is no doubt but that he was the real chief of the Opposition, and by his apostacy — this individual from whom the stiU, small voice came — is the real chief of the Government party. (Laughter.) Well, he was desirous of making overtures, and he did, as a matter of fact, make over tures, with the view, as the honorable and gallant Knight has told us, of sinking aU previous differences. We are told he went into the Government for the purpose of settling this one question of a new political existence, and we are therefore justified in inferring that he is either going out of the Government again at an early day, or else is going up to a higher position. Well, gentle men, what difficulties have been settled ? None as yet, but the scheme now before the House was to be a panacea for all the dif ficulties and dissensions that have afflicted the country for the past five and twenty years. From whom does this panacea emanate ? Why, from the very individual who has been more instrumental than any other man in creating those difficulties. (Hear, hear.) Tho honor able gentleman at one time stated that he was a governmental impossibility, but it does not appear that he has been so in reality. After the oil was thrown on the troubled waters, then came the period for making some little delicate arrangements between the Govern ment and the gentleman poaaeasing the still small voice. Well, what were the little ar rangements ? Why, the honorable gentleman insisted on being an outsider. He would not go iuto the Govemment under any circum stances whatever. (Hear, hear.) No, no, he would not. (Laughter.) Well, the mem bers of the Government said : " But we must have you among us ; wc arc too well aware of the power you can bring us, to consent to your remaining on the outside." Well now, it is astonishing the sacrifices public men will sometimes consent to make. (Laughter.) It is really surprising, gentlemen, what sacrifices they do feel called upon to make for the good of their country. (Laughter.) And here wc have a very notable example of it We have an instance of how much can be sacrificed at the shrine of patriotism for the salvation of one's country. (Laughter. Towards the last of the delicate arrangements before alluded to, he thought he would go in — this stiU, small voice gentleman. (Laughter.) Well, this being determined upon, he thought it would be necessary to go in upon some principle, but that was a most difficult operation. What principle could be found applicable to the case ? (Laughter.) Some inventive genius suggested that he might go in on the homoeo pathic principle. Well, he finally went in ou that principle, and took with him an infini- tessimally small dose of Grits. (Renewed laughter.) And the result of his going in on that principle is that we have now a Gov ernment composed of three Clear Grits and nine Conservatives. The honorable gentle man, to whom I have alluded, went to the country and got retumed to his scat in the House and Government. My honorable friend from Toronto says he got returned by acclam ation. Well, when we look at the individual and consider that he has been for years the leading spirit and guiding genius of a large political party, made up of a majority of the representatives of Upper Canada, and look at the acknowledged intellect of the man, and take into account the influence of the pen which he has the opportunity of wielding so powerfuUy — when we take all these things into consideration, it is not at all surprising that he should be returned by acclamation. (Hear, hear.) He came back from the coun try and has since taken part in the Gov ernment ; and here I wish to make a few observations with reference to the Govern ment as it stands to-day. You must re collect, honorable gentlemen, that we are en joying, or at least have enjoyed, a system of government in this country which has a great many admirers, and which some honorable gentlemen admire a great deal more than the quality of the people. Tbe system is known by the name of Responsible Government. If I understand the subject properly, that system of government is defined in this way — tbat the Government of the country must be car ried on according to the well-understood wishes of the people, as expressed through their re presentatives on the floor of the Ilouse of As sembly. (Hear, hear.) Well now, I take exception to the formation of the present Government, on the ground that it was not established on that principle, because they ai-e not a government emanating from the people. I cannot hold them in the same respect that I 286 did before the three Conservative members from Upper Canada, who retired in favor of the tbree Grit members, left it. The Gov ernment then aU belonged to one political party, were all consistent members of that party, and taken together, were equal in talent to any Administration that has ever had charge of the affairs of this or any other province. All holding the same views on leading politi cal questions, even those who opposed them could not but feel a very large degree of res pect for them as sincere, honest, consistent Conservatives, and as I believe, entertaining sound political principles. But the introduc tion of the three other members altered the whole face of the Government. And the first thing this unholy alliance does is to go to work at the suggestion of the chief with the still, small voice to upset our Constitution. (Hear, hear.) When a great constitutional question comes before this House, designed as it is to sweep an entire constitution from our Statute Book, and replace it with another, I think you will agree -with me, honorable gentlemen, that this is one of the most important measures that could come from any government on the face of the earth. (Hear, hear.) Well, I would ask those people who are so anxious to see responsible government carried out in this country in its integrity, is this a govem ment that you can recognize as representing the well-understood wishes of the people ? A government claiming to be a responsible govemment ought to have for its basis re turns made from the polls, and ought not to have its origin through the instrumentality of ministerial convenience. ("Hear, hear.) I would like to ask if, at the last general elec tion, this subject was mooted to the people in any section of the province ? — whether it was a subject to which the slightest reference was ever made by the votes of the people when they returned their representatives ? I do not think that it could have been, because it is a measure that has emanated from the particu lar individual to whom I have referred, since the TACH:fi-MACDONALD Government got into that unfortunate political dilemma. The people were not aware at the last general election that any such measure as this was to come before the Legislature. Honorable gentlemen, I would not stand up here and speak in this manner if the subject brought under our consideration was any ordinary measure which could be passed this session and repealed at the next, if found unsatisfac tory. But these resolutions, if adopted by all the legislatures, will become embodied in an Imperial Act, and the people of Canada wiU find some difficulty in having any change made in respect to them. The power that creates Confederation, by passing the act for that purpose, will be the only power by which any change can be effected in that act. There fore, after passing these resolutions, it wUl be out of our power to alter them in the least degree. This, honorable gentlemen, is one of the reasons why I have refrained from ad dressing the House untU the resolution which has just been proposed by my honorable friend from the Niagara Division should be brought forward. I would take this opportunity of saying that I do not think the observation made by an honorable gentleman, to the effect that it would be in bad taste for this House to suggest a dissolution of the other branch of the Legislature, should have any influence in disposing of the amendment now before us. Why, honorable gentlemen, there is nothing of the kind in the amendment. We argue for delay, and we are perfectly wiUing you should delay the measure until after the next general election. But, if the Govemment think that delay will be so dangerous to the measure, there is a constitutional remedy open to them, which, of course, it would not be proper fbr me to refer to in a more pointed manner. I do not argue for a week or a month's delay. I think there ought to be a much longer time allowed. I think the ques tion ought to be submittted to the people of this country for their approval. I do not want the thing to be gone about in a peddling kind of style, one honorable gentleman running here and another there, and endeavoring in that way to learn the views ol his constituents. If we cannot have the usual constitutional mode of arriving at tbe true views, opinions, and impressions of the people in relation to the scheme, I do not want any delay at all. I do not want the opinion of the people taken, unless it can be done in such a manner as will give us something upon which we can depend. If an honorable gentleman consults the electors in one portion of his constituency and they are opposed to the scheme, while those of another section of the same constituency are in favor of it, he is no better off than when he began. Nor do I believe in taking a vote of the con stituencies, " yea or nay," on the measure, in the manner in which the people have to vote with reference to stopping the supply of intoxicating drink under the 'Temperance Act. (Laughter.) I go for tbe whole British con stitutional mode, or nothing. I have no idea of wishing to see honorable gentlemen going 287 round among their constituents, knocking at every door, and asking : Do you go Confed eration ? (Laughter.) I would as soon see them going around peddling wooden clocks. (Renewed laughter.) I say, honorable gen tlemen, that the whole scheme has emanated from the fertile and imaginative brain of one individual. That individual suggested the scheme to the Govemment ; the Government took that individual in amongst tbem; he proposed this arbitrary mode of carrying the scheme through with the assistance of a united following — and it is going to be done. The whole thing, I say again, proceeds from that individual, who has ^sown to| the storm and reaped the whirlwind long enough, and does not intend to reap it any longer if he can help it. But my opinion is that he is, perhaps, unwittingly sowing a greater storm than ever, and that a whirlwind wiU ensue of a most fearful character. It is just possible, however, that it wiU be found the most ad vantageous measure for the country that has ever been introduced to the Legislature, and if so, the honorable member for South Ox ford is entitled to the whole credit of sug gesting it, and taking the initiatory steps, with out which it could never have been brought about ; whUe on the other hand, if it should prove the most disastrous to the country that has ever been mooted, as I fear wiU be the case, unless submitted to the people in the constitutional way, that honorable gen tleman wiU be entitled to, and will receive the most bitter condemnation. (Hear, hear.) WeU, I now come to the position which the measure now occupies before the House, and the relation in which I stand to this House in dealing with it. When the proposition was made to change the character of the con stitution of thia House, I did everything m my power to prevent its becoming law ; but aU my efforts, with those of a number of hon orable coUeagues, were of no avaU. And those gentlemen who, on that occasion, agreed with me that it was a most unwise step to alter the Constitution in that respect, when they and I found we could do no more, we filed a protest against it, because — First, — The Act of Union conferred upon the peeple of Canada a Conatitution aa nearly aimilar to that under which Great Britain haa attained her place among nationa, as their colonial position would admit; and the Legislative Council, an integral part of that Conatitution, waa early ea tabliahed on ita preaent baaia aa a check equally upon the haaty action of the popular branch, aa upon the undue influence of the Crown. Second ly — Because the introduction of the elective principle into the Constitution of the Upper Chamber gives an undue preponderance to the popular element ; diminiahes the proper influence of the Crown, and destroys the balance that has acted aa a proper check upon both aince repre sentative institutions were given to the colony. Thirdly, — Because the measure now propoaed tends to the destruction of executive responsi bility ; the adoption of a written Conatitution ; the election of the highest officer of the Crown, and the separation of Canada from the parent atate. — Signed, P. B. DEBLAQmERE, John Ham ilton, George J. Goodhue, Wm. Widmee, Jas. Gordon, J. Perrtek, R. Mathiesox, G. S. Boul- To^-, Walter H. Dickson. Well, honorable gentlemen, the change took place in spite of all we could do. I condemned the proposed change on that occasion from my own personal views respecting it, for I had no constituency, as some honorable gentlemen now have, to consult, and I now take exception in the same manner to the scheme before the House. I do not take such strong exception to the details of the measure as some honorable gentlemen do, be cause when I reflect upon the number of indi viduals that took part in the Conference, and the ability possessed by those individuals, I would not, as a matter of course, have the temerity to rise in my place and proceed to point out an error here and another error there, even if they seemed to me to be errors, as some of them do seem, unless I felt satis fied not only that I possessed sounder judg ment than they, but also that I was better acquainted with all the circumstances having a direct as well as indirect bearing upon the question. But, honorable gentlemen, let me ask who is going to be chiefly affected by those changes? Why, the people of Canada. And therefore it is that I ask, and all I ask is what appears to me to be only what is reasonable, as applied to the every day trans actions of life, and that is, that those who are going to be affected should have some voice, at least, in these proceedings. (Hear, hear.) This appears to me to be a sound mode of viewing the question ; and claiming to myself the right of exercising my own personal judg ment, with the limited meana of doing so which the Almighty has thought proper to place me in possession of, I feel it my duty to stand up in this House and record my views and my vote in such a manner as that, while I live, I may look back with some degree of satisfaction upon the view that I took and advocated upon the fioor of tbis House. — (Hear, hear.) I do not think some honorable gentlemen who have stood up and argued 288 against continuing the elective principle in this House, can have done so with as much satisfaction to themselves as if they had not, on a previous occasion, pursued a different course. I well recoUect that when I found it was the determination to introduce tho elect ive principle in relation to the membership of this House, I said — Gentlemen, if the princi ple is good in one case, it is good in another ; let us make the Speaker elective. No, no, they said, that will not do ; that is republi canism. Tbey would not have the Speaker made elective. You know there was a little patronage at disposal by keeping the appoint ment of the Speaker in the Govemment. At that time I could make no progress in getting the House to go for making the Speaker elect ive. Since then, however, they made tho Speaker elective, and therefore the House must admit that I was right on that occasion. I opposed the House being made elective, but honorable gentlemen made it elective, and now they are going to reinvest the appoint ments in the Crown. So it is clear that when the first change was made I was also right on that occasion. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) When the proposal was made to grant three millions of money to the Grand Trunk, I saw it was being done for political support, and I therefore opposed it. I also opposed the grants to the Artbabaska, and Port Hope and Peterborough railways, because I considered them only convenient methods of acquiring parliamentary support on the pretence of get ting money for the Grand Trunk proper. Those roads were termed " feeders " fbr the Grand Trunk, but I called them Grand Trunk "suckers." (Laughter.) I take to myself fome little credit fbr having taken this view of those questions. I am willing to admit that the Grand Trunk is a very great benefit to the province iu a material point of view, but I do believe that we paid very dearly for the whistle. (Laughter.) Having paid so dearly for that road, running, as it does, through the very finest portion of the coun try, I am disposed to be very cautious about entering upon the construction of this Inter colonial Railway. (Hear, hear.) I have often availed myself of a leaf out of the book of my honorable friend (Hon. Mr. Ross) and I like to stick pretty close by him, because if I get off the track he has the happy faculty of put ting me on again. Now, I would like to ask him whether or not, in the remarks he made this afternoon, he stated that there had been no demand on the part of the people for an elective Legislative Council since the union. Hon. Mr. ROSS— What I said was, that there had been no general demand for the change on the part of the people of Upper Canada. I am well aware that there was agitation on the subject in Lower Canada. Hon. Mr. DICKSON— Well, I find here in the Journals of the Legislative Assembly for 1855, that on the 21st of May, when the second reading of the Bill to make this House elective was defeated, the foUowing was en tered on the Journals by eight honorable members, in the shape of reasons for their dissent from the vote, viz. : — Dissentient — Becauae public opinion haa long and repeatedly been expreaaed on the neceaaity of rendering thia branch of the Legislature elective ; because the almost unanimous vote of the Legis lative Assembly, irrespective of party, has, in the most unequivocal manner, ratified the opinion of the people as hereinbefore expressed; because the opposition of this House to the universal desire of the inhabitants of Canada, unsustained either by a party in the other branch ofthe Legia lature or out of it, ia unprecedented, and of a nature to cause the most serious apprehensions. The first name, honorable gentlemen, signed to that protest is the Honorable John Ross, and the second is my honorable and gallant friend. Sir E. P. Tach£. Then there are the Honorable Messrs. Panet, Belleau, Arm strong, Perry, LEOARfe, and Cartier. Well, Ican now exonerate all those gentlemen, after obser-ving, as I have done, how well the elective principle has worked in its application to this House. But I cannot understand how honorable gentlemen could have entertained the view that great disaster would be the result of refusing to grant the elective princi ple, and then inside of ten years, when their ideas had been put into practical effect, and had worked so admirably, they could again rise in this House and advocate a return to the system which then was so bad, and whicii the people were so determined to have altered. (Hear, hear.) Hon. Mr. ROSS — I was then a member of the Government, and spoke their sentiments. Hon. Mr. DICl^SON— Well then, honor able gentlemen, it seems I am to understand that the honorable gentleman did not then ex press the sentiments of Hon. Mr. Ross as an individual, but of Hon. Mr. Ross as a member of the Govemment. I have never been in the Govemment, and therefore, perhaps, I am pardonable for not having understood that tbe gentleman carried about wilh him a double set of sentiments, either of which could be used as occasion seemed to demand. (Laughter.) But, in furtherance of the argument for delay. 289 I desire to say that I am anxious to have the further consideration of the scheme in this House postponed for other reasons than those which I have given expression to. My honor able friend the gallant Knight, in his remarks last evening, made allusion to the burning of the Parliament buildings.' I agree with him that that was a thing sincerely to be regretted. But he stated that, if the conservatives in the Legislative Council had had the prudence and good sense to exercise the amount of wisdora that they might have exercised, they would have put off the Rebellion Losses Bill another year, wbich course of proceeding would, iu all probability, have prevented the deplorable occurrence to which he referred. Now, hon orable gentlemen, I stand here to ask you to take the advice the honorable and gallant Knight has given, and apply it to the present scheme. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) You do not know what disastrous consequences may ensue, if this huge scheme is carried out without an appeal to the people in a constitu tional manner. I do sincerely hope you will allow that powerful argument for delay ad duced by the honorable and gallant Knight to bear upon this question. (Hear, hear.) This is a revolution, gentlemen, not a mere payment of a few thousand pounds, that is proposed. A revolution may be carried out by the exer cise of political power, as well as by physical force. If the Government of the country is subverted, it makes no difference how it is done. It is a revolution all the same, no mat ter how it is brought about. The effect is the same upon the country. The proposal is to sweep our present Constitution away, and sup ply its place with another, which may be better or a great deal worse. As I see by the clock I have only five minutes left before six, and do not desire to speak at any greater length, I will have to draw my remarks to a close. (Cries of "go on," "go on.") Well, as honor able gentlemen seem to desire it, I will make a few further remarks after dinner. A message was here received from tho As sembly, alter wbich the House took a recess untU 8 P.M. That hour having arrived, and the House having re-assembled — Hon. Mr. DICKSON said— The great reason for delay I conceive to be that it is proposed by the adoption of the resolutions of the Government to wipe out the present Con stitution of the country without consulting the people affected thereby. I have not yet heard one single obaervation from t .e Government, or from any honorable member of thia House, tending to show that there is any necessity for 33 the unseemly haste with which the matter ia being pressed. I think it ought to be laid over until after the next general election ; and I beg honorable gentlemen to observe that I make no suggestion respecting a diaaolution of the other branch of the Legislature. But if there ia really any necessity for haste, then there is a constitutional mode of hastening an appeal open to the Government. My honor able friend opposite argued that the prero gative of the Crown was taken away, in refer ence to the appointment of members of this House, without an appeal to the people, and that therefore no harm could result fiom taking away the boon then given them without any demand on their part or any appeal to them. Gentlemen, we were then experimen talists, and the experiment succeeded weU. Then why not stick to it ? We improved on the Conatitution on that occasion. And you may give the people privileges they do not ask, very safely. But what is now propoaed to be done ? It ia propoaed to take that power from them without conaulting them, and I hold that auch a thing ought not to be done. Having raised them to the higheat state of political exaltation, without their even asking for it, it is now proposed to reduce them, almoat without notice, to the lowest possible position of political degradation. It ia the main prin ciple of the Government under which we live, that the people, through their repreaentativea, ahall be conaulted' as to the composition of their Government. As for a mutual under standing between the electors and the elected, in relation to this acheme, there ia none what ever, and I have thus urged delay becauae I do not think there ia any need of hurry. There ia a constitutional mode of aacertaining the viewa of the people, and it ought to be made use of. But honorable gentlemen s-ay, " Oh, doo't throw out any hint about bringing on a general election before the proper period ; we have had elections enough during the past five years." Why, honorable gentlemen, what is propoaed to be done , y the p ssing of these resolutions? WUl their adoption not bring on a new election inside of eighteen uiontha? There is another obaervation I desire to make with reference to honorable gentlemen ..ndeavoring to obtain the viewa of their conatituents by knocking at their doora, and aaking whether they favor the first rcao lution and the second, and so on, through the entire list. I do not think that even by .-uch ,1 proceeding you could arrive at a thorough underatanding of the views of your constitu ents. The common way of doing it is for a 290 member to call his constituents together in a large room in some hotel or otber building, and lay the whole subject before them, express ing his opinion on the various clauses as he proceeds. In so doing he is more than apt to imbue their minds with the same view that he himself holds. I have only heard one member allude to having received the resolutions, and he merely opened and sealed them up again in consequence of their being marked " Private," without endeavoring to ascertain the views of his constituents. I do hope that some course of procedure can be devised by which the spirit of the amendment proposed by my honorable friend from the Niagara Division may be carried into effect. The amendment simply states — That upon a matter of such great importance as the proposed Confederation of thia and certtin other British Colonies, this House is unwilling to assume the reaponsibility of assenting to a measure itvolving so many important considera tions, without a further manifestation of the public will than haa yet been declared. WeU, honorable gentlemen, ia thia House wUling to assume the responsibility of de priving the people of the opportunity of ex pressing their wishes on so momentous a queation as an entire change of their Constitu tion. Those who are willing to take the res ponsibility will vote againat this amendment, whUe those who are wiUing to have the matter referred to the people, wiU vote for it. My sentiments are weU expressed in the amend ment, and exercising my own individual judg ment, having no constituency to be governed by, I shall vote for it, and if it is defeated it wiU strengthen the hands of the Government in carrying out their great principle of Con federation without an appeal to the people — and, as a matter of course, according to our present system of responsible government, they must assume the responsibility. Hon. Mr. CAMPBELL said— I would like, honorable gentlemen, to continue the debate in that exceUent and happy spirit in which my honorable friend who fias just sat down has addreased the House. I envy mv honorable friend very much fbr the possession of that happy faculty of amusing and instruct ing the House in combination. I am some what grieved to feel obliged to call the atten tion of honorable members to that which is, perhaps, more of a business character and less interesting than the remarks which feU from my honorable friend. I must say that I very much regret that my honorable friend should have thought that on this particular amendment being proposed, it was his duty to come to its support, because it is evident to my own mind, and must also be so to every honorable member present, that my honorable friend, while giving his support to the amendment, entertains very different views from those which were enunciated by the honorable mem ber for Niagara, who moved it. My honor- ablefriend says, " If there is to be delay, let it be a substantial delay ; let it be such a delay as will ensure a dissolution of parliament ; such a delay as wiU enable the people to speak in that manner, and in that manner only, that is known to the British Constitution." I can respect that sentiment. There is something real in an argument based on that foundation. I do him the justice to believe that he takes that view with a sincere desire that the delay should not militate against the scheme, but that it should be adopted by the people when referred to them. But, honorable gentlemen, contrast that view with the idea suggested by the houorable gentleman who moved this re solution. What view does he take ? Not that there should be such a delay as would enable the people to express themselves in the manner in which Great Britain and all her colonies speak, but in that sort of way which, as my honorable friend (Hon. Mr. Dickson) has graphically described, is more nearly allied to the peddling of clocks than to any thing connected with British constitutional procedure. What does the honorable gentle man say ? He says, give us twenty days or a month. Hon. Mr. CURRIE— I said that was the least time I would ask. Hon. Mr. CAMPBELL— What could be done with twenty days or a month's delay ? Is it possible for the people to speak in any constitutional way in twenty days or a month ? The honorable gentleman knows very weU that it is not possible, and that under no system of govemment could such a plan, as his mind has suggested, by any possibility be sanctioned by the Legislature. Would the people of New York state, or any of the States of the Union, sanction a proceeding of that kind ? On the contrary, they would adopt the course at once of having the scheme submitted to a direct vote of the people. If you adopt the British constitutional way, then there wUl have to be a dissolution of Parliament ; but, if you adopt the American system, the people will be oaUed upon to vote " yea or nay " on the scheme as it standa. Let it be expressed in one way or the other, fairly and constitutionally, in ac cordance with our system of government. 291 My honorable friend does not contemplate that. He contemplates a postponement of the subject, in some way or other, for twenty days or a month, and I am sorry that my honorable friend, who spoke last, should have felt himself called upon to adopt a scheme so entirely contrary to what I know are his views as to what is correct and proper, according to those constitutional and British views which he entertains. I am sorry that he should have been led to adopt a scheme which is evi dently not advocated by him from the same motives as those which actuate my honorable friend from Niagara. Hon. Mr. DICKSON— I approve of the resolution as it stands, and I entertain the views that I have expressed. I have always held that a general election was the proper con stitutional mode of learning the people's views, and I distinctly stated that I did not care to have a short delay. Hon. Mr. CURRIE— AU I suggested was that the Govemment might at least give twenty days or a month, if they would grant no more. Of course, I desire to get what my honorable friend Mr. Dickson has asked. Hon. Mr. CAMPBELL— Then I do hope my honorable friend will withdraw his sup port to the amendment, when he sees that he does not concur with the mover of it, who evidently contemplates some other course than is known to the British Constitution for ascertaining the views of the people — for in stance, by members going from door to door, or by holding meetings in convenient places and making themselves agreeable to their con stituents by indulging in hospitalities, &o. I am quite confident that is not the idea which my honorable friend opposite entertains ; nor, I am satisfied, is it tbe view which any hon orable gentleman of this House can entertain who is desirous of promoting Confederation of the provinces — that these resolutions, im portant as they are, and necessary as it is that we should arrive at some conclusion in refer ence to them, should be laid aside untU my honorable friend from Niagara goes about from door to door throughout his large and intelligent constituency, knocking at each and asking the -views of the electors on each sep arate resolution. My honorable friend is charged with the duty of representing his con stituency on the floor of this House, and it is to be supposed that he is well capable of re presenting them in point of inteUect and good judgment, when he is caUed upon to say whether or not he believes the scheme, as a whole, to be a desirable one for the country. (Hear, hear.) But he seems to ignore all that. He does not seem wilUng to pronounce hia judgment upon tbis scheme. He will not say that it is so objectionable that he will vote against it on the merits of the case. If he is unable to come to a decision, he ought to resign his position, and give place to some one who can come to a decision. But look at the position of a man who says in ef fect, " I have no opinion of my own ; if the people whom I represent are favorable to the scheme, I have not a word to say ; I will vote for it to please them, though I disapprove of it." Gentlemen, let him give his consti tuency the benefit of his best judgment, and consider whether, reflecting upon the fact that there are five different provinces to be con sulted, and constituencies upon constituencies to be canvassed, that which he desires can be ascertained in any better way than by this House, considering itself a fair representation of the sentiment of Canada, coming to an im mediate decision. He says his constituents have not charged him with the duty of alter ing the Constitution. Well, but he is charged with the duty of exercising his best judgment upon every subject brought before this House. We arc not here for the purpose of altering the Constitution. We have not the power to alter the Constitution if we desired to do so, but we bave the aacred duty incum bent upon us of expressing our views in rela tion to such alterations as may be considered advantageous to the country. (Hear, hear.) Do these resolutions alter tbe Constitution of the country ? Not at all. They merely state that such alterations are desirable. The Con stitution itself can only be changed by the Imperial authorities. We are not exceeding what our French Canadian friends called tho mandat with which we are charged. We have no power to alter the Constitution, but we have the power of expressing our views in an address to Her Majesty, which it is pro^ posed to adopt in all the legislatures, stating that such and such changes would, in our opinion, prove advantageous to the country. We are exercising exactly the duties which are incumbent upon us. We are giving to our constituents the benefit of our experience and honest convictions upon the topics which are committed to our charge, and which events force upon our attention. Has not the House, on previous occasions, adopted resolutions, the effect of which has been to bring about chanL^'e,s of the Constitution? And has it ever before been argued that this House had no right to debate such resolutions ?_ Nothing 292 of tho kind. The first alteration asked for, was for the purpose of allowing the use of the French hingu-ige in the House of Parli;imcnt, Honor-ible gentlemen might have said then that they had not the power to ask for such a chinge, but such an idea was never mooted. A.N Ho.N. MEMBER — It was carried un;mimou^ly. Hon. Mr. CAMPBELL— I had not the honor of having a seat in this House at tlie time, but I am happy to hear that it was unMnimously carried. Next, a change was asked for in the composition of this House. This House was at one time nominative, and was, in 1856, made elective. Was that not a change of the Constitution ? Nobody, how ever, urged at that time the idea that this House had no power to pass such a resolution. We stand exactly in the same position uow, and it seems to me a moat futile and illogical argument to say that we have not the power to do what it is proposed to do in passing those resolutions, that is, to pray the Queen 80 to change the Constitution of this province that we may unite in one Government with the other provinces of British North Araerica. I am quite satisfied that, when honorable gen tlemen reflect upon it, they will see that they are not in any way exceeding the powers committed to them by their constituencies. My honorable friend from Niagara suggests this amendment in a spirit that is compara tively poor to that in which it is supported by my honorable friend opposite, fie says he ia in favor of the union, but ia opposed to some of the details. It is painful^ to me that any honorable gentleman, who professes a desire to advance the union, should yet shelter him self, in opposing it, under an objection to some of the details. Does my honorable friend se riously propose to submit to the country all those various detaUs ? Can he imagine that he could get an intelligent expression from any part of the country on those details ? All he could get would be a general opinion in favor of Confederation, and we are all sa tisfied that he would have that. I believe there are but two or three honorable mem bers in this House who are really opposed to Confederation. Take ten thousand people from the country, and you will find nine thousand of every ten in favor of Confeder ation. Several Hon. MEMBERS— No, no. Hon. Mr. CAMPBELL— Well, I wiU sub mit to the opinion of honorable gentlemen from Lower Canada, for I do not pretend to be eo weU acquainted with the feelings of their people, but I am in as good a position to speak for Upper Canada as any other honorable gentleman, and I have no hesitation in aaying that the people of Upper Canada are almost uniinimously in favor of Confederation. I am satisfied that, if the question were put before the people by means of a general election, there would be an unanimous vote in Upper Canada in its favor. Hon. Mr. CURRIE— Hear, boar. Hon. Mr. CAMPBELL— My honorable friend from Niagara says " Hear, hear." My honorable friend cavils at every statement which is made, attempts to throw doubt and distrust upon the figures which have been produced in advocacy of tbe measure, and bas not restrained himself from using every method of opposition which his imagination could in vent cr his ability tum to account. I must say that I can hardly believe an honorable gentleman to be in favor of the scheme, who takes every opportunity to attack it, and, when accused of hostility shelters himself under ob jections to the details. (Hear, hear.) It shows to me that his feelings are not sincere, but that he dcires to upset the very founda tions on which Confederation rests, not perhaps because he is opposed to Confederation in the abstract, or a Confederation auch as be would like to aee established, but because be desires to thwart and defeat the efforts of those who have been honestly and industriously engaged in bringing about tbe scheme which is now before this House. I say, honorable gentlemen, if the people could express their opinions as we may express ours to-night, they would all concur in the firat resolution. (Hear, hear.) Well, gentlemen, it being granted that we are all in favor of union, how are the details tobe settled ? Is it possible that the nearly four millions of people who compose the provinces to be affected by the union, should meet together era masse and settle tbose details ? It is not possible, and those who argue that the scheme should originate with the people, know very well that it is not possible. Well, then, could the parliaments of aU these pro vinces assemble together and agree upou a scheme of Confederation ? Look at the diffi culties that we have to encounter on every point of the details in carrying the scheme through this House, and judge for yourselves whether the parliaments of all the provinces could meet together, and originate and decide upon the details of Confederation. There is no other practicable way than that delegates should meet together as they have done, and frame resolutions on the subject, upon which 293 the act constituting the union could be found ed. Honorable gentlemen have asked who authorized tbose delegates to meet together for the purpose of framing those ri solutions. Honorable gentlemen know very well that the present Govemraent of Canada was forraed for the very purpose of considering and submitting a scheme ofthis kind. My honorable friend from Niagara again takes shelter under the statement tbat what the Government proposed to do was to bring down a scheme fbr the Con federation of Canada alone, and that the bring ing of all the provinces into the Confederation was only a secondary idea. The honorable gentleman knows very well that that statement of the case is a mere pretence. Everybody knew that the Government would endeavor to overcome the difficulties wbich presented them selves in working the govemment of Canada, either by one project or by the other. The honorable gentleman has quoted from the Speech from the Throne delivered at the close of last session, in which an allusion was made to the formation of a Federal union between the two sections of this province, and not to a Federal union of all the provinces. Why does he not refer to and quote from the Speech from the Throne at the opening ofthis session ? My honorable friend will find there, and I suppose he wUl place the expression on even terms with the other, the following : — At the close of-the last session of Parliament I informed you that it was my intention, in con junction with my ministers, to prepare and submit to you a measure for the solution of the constitu tional problem, the discussion of which has for sorae years agitated thia province. A careful consideration of the general position of British North America induced the conviction that the circumstances of the times afforded the opportu nity, not merely for the settlement of a question of provincial politics, but also for the-simultaneous creation of a new nationality. Now, my honorable friend aays in effect that we were not right, when the opportunity preaented itaelf of endeavoring to carry out the idea, in seizing upon it, and endeavoring to combine theae provincea in one nationality, under the common flag of Great Britain, and under the rule of a Viceroy of the Britiah Crown. Every honorable gentleman feels in his heart that we were not only right and patriotic in thus assembling, but that we were doing that which was promised to the Legis lature of this province at the close of last session of Parliament. Honorable gentlemen, I am surprised and grieved that my honorable friend from Niagara, whom I know to be a patriotic and loyal subject of Her Majesty, does not feel it his duty to unite with us in bringing about that which is so dear to all of us — a closer connection witb the Mother Coun try, and abetter means of perpetuating Biiiish institutions on this continent. (Hear, hear.) My honorable friend says the whole scbeme is characterized by concessions to the Lower Provinces. Why, honorable gentlemen, place him in any portion of the Lower Pro, inces and let him listen to the opposition that is made there to the scheme, and he will find that tbe whole cry of those who, like him, do not reflect on the necessity of yielding some thing for the common good, is, that e.-erything has been conceded to C;inada. It is said, " We are going to be united with a province which is infinitely beyond us in point of population and wealth, and whose public men are able to command, by their ability, a much larger influence than our public men." They profess to believe that they are comins!; under the shadow of Canada, and that everything which they desire for themselves wi 1 be trampled under foot. My honorable friend, forgetting those duties which he owes to the Government, and forgetting the duty which he owes as a patriotic citizen to his country, contents him self with finding fault with the details of a scheme which he believes will be for tbe benefit of the country, and picks holes in every part of these details whioh he does not happen fully to understand. He not only complains that the people of Canada have not been consulted, but that in every respect the interests of Can ada have been bartered away. Does he forget that the members of the Government all love their country, and have interests as great and as dear to them as tbe rest of the people of Canada ? Is it likely that my honorable friend at the head of the Government, the honorable and gallant Knight, would give up everything that is dear to his race and to the people of this province? Is it likely that .my of us would ruthlessly throw away any advantage which we could reasonably retain ? On the contrary, if my honorable friend could be brought to look upon the measure with that liberality which ought to characterize a public man, he would concede that, although we had to give away some things, we did that whioh was best for the interests of our coun try. Let him find himself surrounded, as we were, by diverse interests — peculiarities here, prejudices there, and strong intereata in the other direc tion, and let him produce, if he can, a scheme which, on the whole, is more advantageous to the people of this province, or which promises better for the country at large than that which 294^ is now on the table of this House. Let him do this, and then I will forgive him for the illiberality whichhe exhibits towards those who have honestly endeavored, to the best of their united ability, to arrange the scheme which is now under your consideration. (Hear, hear.) I could forgive my honorable friend altogether, if, like my honorable friend opposite, he took the ground that the scheme ought to be delayed until after a general election. But, instead of that, he leaves no stone unturned to prejudice this House against the measure. It seems to me that if he could prejudice the House suffi ciently against it to insure its defeat, as a whole, he would leave no stone unturned to accomplish it. So far from showing that he is in favor of the scheme, I cannot for one moment imagine how any one can believe him to be a sincere friend of Confederation under any circumstances. It is all very well to say, " I am in favor of the scheme, but opposed to some of the details." Was not every one of those details tested and tried in all its bearings, so far as such a thing was possible, by gentle men as inteUigent and well informed upon the subjects embraced as any honorable gentleman in this House ? Every honorable gentleman now listening to me knows very well that it was not possible to adopt a scheme that could not be found fault with. No matter what scheme was put upon the table of tbis House, even if my honorable friend had been able to submit a scheme infinitely superior to this, does anybody believe that certain honorable gentlemen in this House would have supported it? The resolutions may be objectionable here and objectionable there, but it is for honorable gentlemen to consider all the circumstances out of which they have grown, and consider whether, under those circum stances, they ought not to be adopted as a whole by the House. Honorable gentlemen say, where is the advantage to be gained by Canada from Confederation ? Well now, can any honorable gentlemen in his senses believe that the removal of the obstacles to inter course between the provinces, the doing away with the customs duties, and the developing the trade of the St. Lawrence, is no advantage to Canada ? Can it be said that to open up conimeice with three millions of people along the St. Lawrence and the lakes will be of no advantage to the people of the Lower Pro vinces ? Can any Briton, advocating as he does the continuation of our connection with the Mother Country, say — " I would rather be alone, be an Upper Canadian and be left to myself, and that my fellow-colouists be left to take care of themselves.'' Then my honor able friend asks : " Where is the additional military strength ?" Does my honorable friend pretend to deny that there is no additional strength in union over isolation ? Does any man pretend to say that eight hundred or a thousand men belonging to a regiment are just as strong in units as when they are com bined in a regiment and directed by the in tellect of one man ? And just so the forces of all these provinces are comparatively weak in their present isolated state. If we could say to the United States that we had the con trol of four millions of people to guard our frontier and repel attack, would not that form a strong barrier of defence ? Would that be no weapon in the hands of a government de sirous to avert an appeal to force of arms ? It is the strength of a large nuinber of people wielded by one mind, affording a power vastly superior to that which Canada alone could bring into the field, and giving the Govern ment, when negotiating, an opportunity to point to what might possibly result from that power being called into active service. How can men be so lost to all that is true and use ful and patriotic as to oppose a union of the powers of defence, and to oppose a scheme which is alone likely to afford the means of maintaining, for any long period of years, that connection with Great Britain which we all regard as so valuable ? My honorable friend from Niagara took occasion, in the course of his remarks, to throw doubt upon one or two of my statements, and particularly in regard to the value of the mineral deposits of New foundland. I stated that I could satisfy the House that there were mineral deposits in Newfoundland of a valuable character. I will not detain the House by reading it at length, but I hold in my hand a copy of a report that was made on that colony in 1840, stating that those deposits consisted of galena, gypsum, marble, gold, iron, copper, etc. There are most important lead mines in oper ation, and Professor Shephard states that he saw 3,500 pounds of pure galena thrown from a vein at a single blast. He goes on in tbis report to describe the very convenient position of the mines, showing that they can be approached very closely by vessels drawing twelve or fifteen feet of water. This report plainly shows that my honorable friend was mistaken in suppos'-m; that there were no valuable minerals in Newfoundland. But sup pose, for the sake of argument, that there were no minerals there ; suppose we were simply giv ing the Provmce of Newfoundland $150,000 a 295 year for the purpose of getting that island into the Confederation, would it not be better to have the Confederation complete than to refuse to agree to that condition? One would suppose, from the manner in which some honorable gentlemen treat the question, that the various sums to be annually paid to the Lower Pro vinces were to be paid by Canada alone ; but it is nothing of the kind, — they are to be paid by the whole Confederation, the population receiving the benefit contributing as much per head to the amount as tbat of the Province of Canada. What does my honorable friend suppose the Province of Newfoundland gives up to the Confederation in return for the $150,000 ? It transfers to us the whole right of property in its unsold lands, and the whole of its general revenue. In 1862, it had a gross revenue of $480,000, only $5,000 of which was from local sources, and it is calcu lated that the colony will bring a revenue of $430,000 per annum to the Confederate purse, while the total amount it will receive will be $369,200 per annum out of which to defray its local expenses. Is there anything so marvellously outrageous in that ? In ad dition to the fact that Newfoundland wiU pay the Confederation $430,000, and receive $369,000, we have a complete yielding to the Federal Government of all her territorial sources of revenue. And so it is with all the provinces. Each of them will contribute to the general revenue, or to the Confederate purse, more than they will receive from it, so that the revenue of the whole country will show a surplus. The honorable gentleman from Nia gara evidently contemplates much more by his amendment than my honorable friend op posite, who has so ably supported it, contem plates. My honorable friend who supported the amendment contemplates a delay until there shall be an expression of the people taken through a dissolution of Parliament. WeU now, how can a dissolution of Parlia ment be brought about iu a constitutional manner ? Suppose this scheme to receive the support of an immense majority of the Lower House, as it plainly does, and also of a large majority in this House, how, I would ask, under our system of govemment, can a disso lution be brought about? A dissolution is unknown to the British Constitution, as car ried out in this province, except when a measure, originated by the Government, does not receive the support of Parliament. Re ceiving the support of more than two-thirds of the representatives of the people, as the present Government does, how is it possible that Parliament could be diaaolved to suit the views of a small minority ? That is ask ing quite too much, even if it were pos sible to grant it. (Hear, hear. ) What, there fore, do honorable gentlemen ask, when they ask that the scheme be submitted to the peo ple ? They ask us as a Govemment to leave that which we consider the safe, sound, British constitutional mode of procedure, and resort to the American system of obtaining assent to constitutional alterations, by taking the votea, yea and nay, of the individual members of the whole community. What aort of a conclusion could be arrived at by that mode .of procedure? Is it possible that any hon. member of tbis House deairea that the people ahould have the opportunity of aaying yea or nay to each clause of these reaolutiona ? I am aatiafied that that ia not wh it my honor able friend from Niagara desires, because he only asks fbr a delay of a month ; and my honorable friend opposite doea not deaire it, becauae he knows the British Constitution and loves it too well to contemplate such a course for a moment. What conclusion, then, can we arrive at, but that those who oppose the passage of the scheme through this House, by moving and supporting amendments to it, aro deairoua of defeating it, and make thoae amendmenta for that purpoae ? (Hear, hear.) I am aatisfied, from the beat information I can obtain, that the paaaage of the amendment would have a very great tendency towarda de feating the measure. It has to be agreed to in both branches of all the other legislatures, and then in the Imperial Parliament. AU the other legislatures are now waiting upon the action of this House. They are waiting to know whether honorable gentlemen of the Legislative Council of Canada concur in the scheme — whether you are satisfied to put on one side small objections to minor mattera of detail — to put to one aide your individual opiniona on this point and on that point, and give it your support as a whole. Every person who reflects upon the subject must be satisfied that that would have to be done under any circumatancea. Do you deaire to have a union of all the British American Provinces, or do you desire to remain as you are ? That is the isaue. For myaelf, I feel that our connection with the Mother Country cannotbe maintained for any great length of time without such a union. What have we found in the utterances of the public men of England from year to year ? Have we not found them asserting, with more and more vehemence every year, that we were not doing our duty on this side 296 of the water in relation to our defences ? If Great Britain should get into a war with the United States from circumstances over which we had no control, still our destiniea were linked in with those of the great empire of wbich we form a part, and it is our duty, under all circumstances, todo something more than we have yet done, to prepare for events that may happen from one cause or another. But suppose tbat during the past summer armed forces from the United States had en tered Canada in pursuit of raiders escaping into this province from the other side of the border, as they might have done had not Gen. Dix's order been withdrawn; and had we found that our integrity as a member of tbe great Empire was not respected, and Great Britain had coincided with the views of our Government and declared war against the United States, because that country had exer cised liberties in one of her provinces to which no foreign power was entitled, where then would have been the cause of the war ? It would have lain in the assertion of the right of the people of this province to maintain the position of an integral portion of the British Empire. Well, supposing the cause of a war with that nation to have been elsewhere, still we must partake with the Empire in upholding its integrity, and must stand or fall with that Empire. Shall we say that we will contribute nothing towards our defence except to keep up the volunteers, and depend entirely upon what the Mother Country, for prudential reasons, may do for us ? Is that a feeling that any honorable member of this House ought to be actuated by in relation to this or any other question ? I am sure no honorable gentleman would be williog to sit down and fold his arms under the protection which tho money and arms of Great Britain give us ; and I am sure my honorable friend from Niagara himself would not unite in such a view plainly expressed. StiU, my honorable friend thinks theso reaolutiona ought not to pass thia Houae, but ought to be postponed indefinitely, leaving the coloniea in the divided condition in which they now are. I believe, on the contrary, that the interests and deatiny of thia oountry are bound up in the union now contemplated taking place. Suppoae, aa many believe, the end of that unfortunate fratiicidal strife in the United States is at hand, and a reconciliation takes place at any reasonable time between the Northern and Southern States, I am quite sure the main tenance of the integrity of these provinces wiU depend upon this union having been con summated. If the scheme is postponed now, it is postponed indefinitely. For years past the effort has been making to get the Lower Provinoes to assent to a union with Canada, and, if the question is now postponed, there is no knowing whether we shall ever be able to get tbeir assent to it again or not. Action in the parliaments of Nova Scotia, Newfoundland, and P;ince Edward Island, is now hanging upon the proceedings in this House. If you pass an amendment, it will indicate to them that the people of Canada are not warmly in favor of the scheme. Hon orable gentlemen, are you ready to take the responsibility of declaring that the people of Canada are opposed to Confederation ? There is no knowing when circumstances will allow of its being brought to this forward stage again. Those of you who know what difficul ties and objections were met with — the selfish interests ofthe various sections of this and of the other provinces, which we had to over come — must feel that a very great advance was made when the measure was brought to tbe present forward stage. When again wiU it be likely to happen that the representatives of the various provinces will be brought together to consider the question ? When wiU it again happen that the governments of the several provinces concerned will be able to lay upon the table of their respective legis latures a scheme so complete in all its details as this is ? It is impossible to say when that happy coincidence Of circumstances will again occur. Then my honorable friend from Nia gara says, " You have not given us the scheme in detail. You have not given the whole of it. The House has not before it the proposed Constitution under which Upper and Lower Canada are hereafter to meet. You have not told us what are to be the rights and the powers of the local legislatures." Well, hon orable gentlemen, all I can say is, that it would be impossible, and not only impossible, it would be uaeleaa for the Government to have brought down this acheme at the same time that they submitted the scheme now belore the House. Until this scheme passes, until it shall be adopted in the other provinces, until we know whether or not we are to form portions of a Confederate Govemment, there is no occasion for introducing the scheme relating to the local legislatures. But, honorable gentlemen, ia it likely or can it be possible for such a scheme to be adopted without the sanction of both branches of the Legislature? The plan, whatever it may be, for the constitution of Upper and Lower Canada, is it a matter 297 which the ministers of the Crown can carry in their pockets and put in force without the sanction of Parliament ? No, it is a measure which must hereafter be laid on the table of this House, which must be debated, and upon wliich we shall all have an opportunity of pronouncing an opinion before it comes in force. At the proper time, a full opportunity will be afforded to those who dissent from the views of the Govemment, in regard to the constitutions of these provinces, of expressing their opinions, and of seeking to give effect to them. The same may be said in regard to the objections taken to the Intercolonial Rail way. It is asserted that the Intercolonial Railway is something that we ought never to have agreed to. But honorable gentlemen will acknowledge, as a general proposition, that union is impossible -without the railway, and such as believe that union is important and necessary, must be content to take the raUway as a condition which is indispensable. But, honorable gentlemen, the Govemment cannot of itself build the Intercolonial Rail way. There is no power either in this Gov emment or the Governments of the other provinces to build it. We must come down to Parliament for the sanction — not to this Parliament, but to the Confederate Parlia ment, and the Confederate Parliament wiU have an opportunity of saying upon what terms we shaU build the Intercolonial Rail way. The fullest opportunity will be afforded for disoussion before either the Intercolonial Railway is built, or the constitutions are adopted for Upper and Lower Canada. The former will be submitted to the Confederate Parliament ; the latter, should the resolu tions now before the House pass, to the pre sent Parliament of Canada; for that must necessarUy be a matter for the disposal of the Legislature of Canada. I am not one of tbose who would, as suggested, desire to take shelter behind the resolutions before the House for any unworthy purpose ; but this I -will say, that the amendment now before the House ought not to receive its sanction. I am quite satisfied that no honorable member of this House, who is really and truly an advocate of this scheme, and who believes that Confeder ation of all the provinces is important and desirable, will be found voting for tbis amend ment, which would place a barrier in the way of Confederation, such, as, perhaps, we could not overcome. Fancy the number of years during which this matter has been contem plated. As my honorable friend who sits near me pointed out, it is a meastire which has 39 long been agitated. He shewed you that for years and years it has engaged the attention of almost every person who took any kind of in terest in the public affairs of this country. I have only one thing to add to my honorable friend's elaborate statement on this point, and that is, to quote an extract from the resolu tions proposed in this House many years ago by an honorable friend of mine, whom I am glad, and whom every one of his fellow mem bers is glad to find still occupying his accus tomed place in this House — I refer to my honorable friend Hon. Mr. Matheson. In 1855, my honorable friend proposed a series of resolutions in this House against the elec tive principle, the last of which is in language prophetic of the result whicii now we are test ing by actual experience. The resolution is in these words : — 8. Resolved, — That as the subject of a union of the whole of the British North American Pro vinces has for years occupied the public atten tion, it would manifestly be unwiae to complicate future arrangements by a change in the Constitu tion of one of thoae provincea, which haa not been sought for, and which thia Houae believes, would not be acceptable to the others. It ia, therefore, the opinion of this Council, that any proceedings on the subject at the present juncture would be premature, unwise, and inexpedient. My honorable friend at that time looked for ward to that which we now see about to take place — a union of these provinces — and he anticipated also that the elective system, if introduced into this branch of the Legislature, would be fraught with difficulty. It has been fraught with difficulty, and it is a difficulty which we must surmount — a barrier which we must strive to overcome. The personal objections which my honorable friend from Niagara division has started, are the poorest kind of objections. It is not what my hon orable friend near me, or my honorable friend opposite, possibly thought or said at some re mote period, that we Jiave now to consider. We are all more or less exposed to this sort of attack ; but fortunately the time during which I have had the honor of being in pub lic life has been so short, and the position I have since occupied has been so obscure, that I am not so much exposed as many others to these accusations ; but I am well aware that this is owing to my comparative insignificance. I must say that for my part I am disposed to put aside all these things. I am disposed to put aside aU reference to what an honorable member may have done under other circum stances and in other times, and I would mere- 298 ly ask myself this : " Is this Confederation desirable ? Do I wish for it as a lover of monarchical institutions ? Do I desire it as a subject of the British Empire ? Do I wish for the perpetuation of the connection between this country and Great Britain ? " If I do I shall waive my objections on this point and the other, in my deaire for the success of the principle. This Confederation has been sought after for years, but never until now has it ap proached so near a consummation — never was it a possibility as it is now a possibility. After years of anxiety, after years of diffi culty, after troubles here and divisions there, the scheme is found possible, and I will not put it away from me because I object to this point or to that. If this harness of the Con federation of the country is to be put on, we cannot but expect that it wUl chafe here and chafe there ; but time will give relief and provide the remedy, as it has done in other circumstances before. It was so in regard to the union of 1840. The Lower Canadians had a grievance in the French language being ex cluded from the Provincial Parliament. That chafed, as was to be expected, and provoked remonstrance. And what was the result ? The injustice complained of was done away with, and both languages were thereafter per mitted to be used. Then it was the desire of the people that the elective system should be introduced into this House. I believe my self that it was a mistake, but a change was desired, and a change was brought about. And so it will be in this case.. If change is seriously desired, it will be had. It would be unwise and unstatesmanlike, in my opinion, to declare that because we cannot have our way on this point or on that point — that be cause the scheme in all its features is not ex actly what we would like it to be — we wiU not have it at aU. Where, honorable gentle men, is the union effected between any two countries, or any two individuals even, whioh has lasted for any length of time without mutual forbearance and mutual concessions ? Let those honorable gentlemen who have had the good fortune of forming unions, and wbo can therefore speak from experience, say whether any union can be formed either happy or lasting without forbearance on both sides. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) You must give up all thoughts of union unless you are willing to give and take, and cease persisting for everything you think best. Nobody ever did effect a union upon such terms, and nobody ever will. You must forbear here and give way there. I trust and believe that in the present instance this will be the opinion of the Legis lature of this country. I trust and believe we are satisfied that Federation is desirable in itself, and that, without insisting on this point or on that point, we wiU be looking con fidently forward to the future, when we shaU witness, in this country, a population of four millions, with a valuable commerce, and, in point of naval power and supremacy, ranking fourth in the world. (Applause.) Particu larly am I surprised that any honorable gen tleman from Lower Canada should oppose himself to this union, for by union the peo ple of Lower Canada wUl regain possession of those countries which were once belonging to their race, and in which their language con tinues to be spoken. I beUeve that for them, as well as for us, there is a future in store of great promise, to which we can all look for ward with the most confident expectations. And shall we set aside aU these promising prospects because we cannot obtain this little point or that little point ? I hope honorable gentlemen who favor the scheme see as I see that there is imminent danger in postponing the measure, and I ask them not to pass this amendnient, which is brought forward in the poorest of all spirits, which is based on tbe assumption that honorable gentlemen are not ready to give the country the benefit of their minds and their judgments, but which asks us to wait and go knocking about from door to door, asking what is thought about the scheme upon which we are now called to le gislate. Federation is the future safety and salvation of the country. Let us then waive our small objections and vote for Federation. (Applause.) Hon. Mr. SEYMOUR— The Hon. Com missioner of Crown Lands is right in sup posing that I am opposed to Federation I am opposed to it, and particularly on the basis agreed upon at the Quebec Convention. I do not say that I would be opposed to a legislative union on fair and equal terms ; but I am decidedly opposed to Federation on tbe terms now before the House. My hon. friend has said that in aU unions there must be forbearance ; but in this Federation scheme it appears to me the forbearance has been aU on one side. The forbearance has not been mutual. When parties enter into a partnership, there ought to be forbearance ou the part of each, and mutual concessions. But in this case the concessions as well as the forbearance have been all on the side of Canada. My hon. friend, with aU his elo quence and ability, has not answered a single 299 objection raised by my hon. friend from Niagara (Hon. Mr. Currie). He has found it convenient to pass them all over for the simple reason that he found them unanswer able. My hon. friend says : — " Was not the French language restored to Lower Canada, and was not this a change in the Constitution?" Hon. gentlemen, it was certainly restored, and by the Conservative administration of that day, and, as my hon. firiend opposite (Hon. Mr. Boulton) has said, unanimously. There was no opposition, for it was considered a right to which our French Canadian fellow- subjects were fully entitled. But is the restoration of tbe French language to be compared with the resolutions now proposed — with the great constitutional change which is intended to affect, not only our selves, but our children and our children's children for all time to come ? Is a change like this to be compared with the restoration of the French language ? Certainly not. It seems to me to be the most extraordinary comparison I ever heard of. Then my hon. friend has referred to the change in the constitution of the Legislative Council. But was not that question over and over again before the people ? Did not the people at the hustings frequently pronounce an opinion upon that change ? Undoubtedly they did, and it being understood that the people were in favor of it, the change was brought about. My hon. friend says that in the Conference they were surrounded with difficulties. No doubt they were. And why? Because they allowed for Prince Edward Island and Newfoundland as many delegates as they did for Canada. No doubt they were surrounded with diflSculties. No doubt they were overwhelmed by the demands of these gentlemen. The hon. gentleman says that Confederation is necessary to strengthen the defences of the country. In what way ? Can any hon. gentleman tell me in what way ? I have not heard one word to prove, to my satisfaction, how the defences of the country are to be strengthened by Federation, unless indeed it be by placing the whole of the provinces under one head. Why, hon. gen tlemen, did I not shew here the other day what was the feeling ofthe Lower Provinces in regard to the deienc:;s of the country ? At a time when our Parliament were propos ing to pass an act which would entail the expenditure of millions on the defences of the country, what was being done in the LowerProvinces? Why the Financial Secre tary of one ofthe provinces came down with a proposed grant of $20,000, and he was obliged to apologize to the House that the sum was so large ! And the present Premier of Nova Scotia — the province second in impor tance in British North America — proposed to strike off $12,000, and leave the appro priation at $8,000. This was proposed by a province next in importance to our own, and at thetime of the Trent afiair, when there was an appearance of danger much greater than at present. And what did New Brunswick do ? Appropriate $15,000. The people that did all this are the people to whom we are to ally ourselves that we may be strengthened in our efforts for the defence of the country ! Do hon. gentlemen believe that an alliance with provinces whose leading men hold such views as these would add to our strength ? Certainly not. My hon. friend the Com missioner of Crown Lands has also said that 95 out of every 100 of the people of Upper Canada are in favor of Federation. My hon. friend is n.istaken. I once had the honor of representing a portion of his constituents, and I would inform my hon. friend that I know as much of the feeling, not simply of the people of Upper Canada, speaking of them generally, but of his constituents, as he does ; and this I would say that were my hon. friend to go before his constituents and tell them that, in order to get Federation, Upper Canada is to pay two-thirds of the cost of the Intercolonial Railway, and two- thirds of the cost of maintenance of the road for all time to come, and that the roads of the Lower Provinces are to be made Govern ment roads, and to be kept up in future at the expense ofthe Federal Government, and tnat Upper Canada will have two-thirds of the burden to bear, I will venture to say that my hon. friend would fi id himself wrong in his estimate of being able to satisfy 95 out of every 100 of his constituents. Hon. Mr. CAMPBELL— Tell them of all the circumstances, and I would be able to satisfy them. Hon. Mr. SEYMOUR— My hon. friend is greatly mistaken. If my hon. fiiend is to be one of the life members under the Feder ation, he would not require so much to satisfy them. Hon. Mr. CAMPBELL— My hon. friend is altogether too fast. I do not look forward to any such thing. Eon. Mr. SEYMOUR— My hon. friend has the power in his hands ; but if he does SOO not desire the honor, of course he can avoid its being thrust upon him. But my hon. friend could not for a moment go before his con stituents — and he represents a constituency wbich for intelligence is second to none in Upper Canada — and tell them that they are to contribute to tbe revenue ofthe Confede ration in proportion to their import duties — that they are to contribute according to their wealth — and that they are only to receive back in proportion to their po;iula- tion — that largely as they contribute, the return will only be the same as to the fisher men and lumberers who form the fioating population of the Lower Provinces, and carry 80 large a majority as he has named with him. A doctrine such as this is any thing but conservative. I weald submit to any thing rather than vote for such a scheme. Were I to support it in its present shape I should consider myself as betraying the intereata of my country. Hon. gentleman are of course entitled to their own opinions in this matter ; but these are mine, and I shall continue to maintain and uphold them. I assert that the amendment of my hon. friend for delay is a just .and reasonable one, and I cannot see how it can possibly be objected to in a matter of this im-oortance, where the dearest interests of tbe whole country are at stake, and where we are legislating not for ourselves alone but for future generations. Such being the importance of the measure, I cannot conceive how hon. gentlemen can vote against so reasonable a proposition. (Hear, hear.) Hon. Mr. FERGUSSON BLAIR — I seek for information from the Hon. Commis sioner of Crown Lands, as to the scheme respecting the local legislatures. Did I understand ray hon. friend to say that it would be submitted to the present Par liament ? Hon. Mr. CAMPBELL— It i,s so in tended. Hon. Mr. FERGUSSON BLAIR — I also understood my hon. friend to say that belore the House pronounced upon the general scheme of Federation, it would not be proper to submit the scheme for the local legislatures. I cannot see the force of that. But still I will not raise that as an objection to proceeding with the present scheme. Hon. Mr CAMPBELL— Perhaps my hon. friend from Brock is right in the view he takes. But it was throught by the Government that it would be premature to bring in the sheme for the local govern ments untu it was seen ^-bether Parliament was in favor ofthese resolutions. Hon. Mr. FERGUSSON BLAIR— But many members of this House, before making up their minds as to how they ought to vote on the resolutions, would like to be informed as to the nature of the local scheme, which is to have such an important bearing on the question at issue. Hon. Mr. CAMPBELL— The Parliament ofthe country wUl have the fullest opportu nity of proDOuncing upon it. Hon. Mr. SIMPSON— When ? Hon. Mr. CAMPBELL— After these resolutions have been passed. We thought it was unnecessary for us to give our atten tion to the local constitutions for Upper and Lower Canada until we had ascertained whether Parliament was in favor of Federa tion. That ascertained, we shall feel it our duty to give our minds to the preparation of the scheme for the constitutions of the two provinces; and these constitutions will be laid before Parliament. Hon, Mr. ROSS — I do not know what the views of the Government may be upon this point, but it seems to me that it would have been an extraordinary proceeding had they brought down at this- juncture the proposed constitutions for Upper and Lower Canada. There may a great difference of opinion arise as to the constitutions proper to be proposed for these provinces ; and it is quite possible that these differences may occasion the withdrawal of some members of the Government. (Cries of " hear, hear.") Hon. gentlemen cry " hear, hear," But I say that such may possibly be the case. And it would be absurd and impolitic for the Government to throw the country in a state of confusion aa regards the scheme for the local legislatures if they failed in carrying the lesolutions here sub mitted, Hon, gentlemen will see tbat they would be unworthy of the position they hold were they to do so. I am not .sure whether I understood my hon. friend to say that the scheme for the local legislatures would be brought down on the pas;ing of these reso lutions. I hope that I misunderstood him, because I think we should wait the result of the action of the Lower Provinces. We should see if Federation succeeds there, inasmuch as in case of its failure in the Lower Provinces, even if we adopt the reso- 901 lutions here, the arrangement would not go into effect, and we would be placing the country in a state of turmoil and confusion in discussing measures which would be altogether unnecessary. We ought, it seems to me, first to carry out this arrangement as far as it is possible to carry it, and if we can secure the assent to it of the two larger provinces below, there will be a reasonable certainty of the scheme being effected. And then, and not till then will the proper time arrive for the discussion of the propoaed constitutiona of Upper and Lower Canada. I am perfectly amazed , at the proposition of my hon. friend (Hon. Mr. Fergusson Blair), because he is friendly to these reaolutions, and gave ua the expreaaion of his viewa thereon in an admirable manner at the opening ofthe debate. And how the hon. gentleman ahould desire to have the scheme for the local legislatures quoad thia project ia beyond my compre hension. Hon. Mr. FERGUSSON BLAIR— I think it is only reasonable that, as hon. gen tlemen argue, they should aee before voting for or against Federation what are the pro posed constitutiona for the local legisla tures. (Hear, hear.) Hon. Mr. CAMPBELL— My hon. friend should aid this to the reflection — that at all events hon. members will have a full oppor tunity of pronouncing upon it. Hon. Mr. VIDAL said — Honorable gentlemen, you may probably regard it as presumptuous in one so inexperienced as I am in parliamentary debate, to enter the lists againat the Hon. Commiaaioner of Crown Lands, and to venture to dispute the validity of the argumenta adduced by him iu his eloquent apeech againat the amendment now under conaideration ; yet, great as is the existing disparity in point of ability and in fluence, I do not shrink from the contest, for I believe that I have truth and justice on my side, and have confidence that in its own inherent power, the truth wUl ultimately prevail. I have listened with delight to the hon. gentleman's address, and cordially con cur with his views on many points, but there are some in which I differ, in none more so than that which regards all who support the amendment of the hon. member from the Niagara Division (Hon. Mr. Currie) as insincere, nay, even as wanting in loyalty to the Crown and to the country. Hon. Mr. CAMPBELL— What I said was this, that I was slow to believe in the sincerity of those who advocated a measure and sheltered themselves behind details. Hon. Mr. VIDAL — It was more point edly put than that. It was said that the terms of the motion were such as clearly showed that it was made simply for the object of defeatir:g the measure. Hon. Mr. CAMPBELL— And I repeat that it is so. But that is very different from what you charged me with saying. Hon. Mr. VIDAL — The hon. gentleman made the remark that we were not altering the Constitution, butthat the question before us was one simply for an address to the Crown, Now, strictly speaking, and taking the words of the motion in their mere literal sense, this statement is correct; but I ask hon. gentlemen if it is fair or candid to en deavor to lead the House to believe that this motion, which is undoubtedly for an address, is not in effect for a change in the Constitu tion ? Are we not plainly told that no Im perial legislation will take place on this subj ect, unless such an Address as this receives the assent of the Canadian Legislature ? I hold, therefore, that the motion before us, though it be for an Address to Her Majesty, is in effect a measure, which has for its object a change of the Constitution. Such being the case, the subject is one which demands our most careful consideration, and for which we ought to be allowed all the time requisite to the fullest and freest disoussion. The changes which have been referred to, and with which it has been sought to compare this change, cannot with propriety be regarded as similar. I contend, in the language of the honorable gentleman (Hon. Mr. Seymour) who has just preceded me, that this is in fact a revolu tion : the word is not too strong. So far from its being as has been stated, a simple change, like the mere introducing or reintroducing the use of the French language into the Legislature, or even the more important step of altering the constitution of this House, it is an entire alteration of our political condi tion and relations, and affects most deeply the whole country in all its varied interests. Whatever may be the correctness or in correctness of tbe opinion of my hon. friend as to hon. members covering their hostility to the scheme of Confederation by objecting only to its details, it will not apply to me ; I shall take no shelter under details. My course in voting for the amendment of the hon. member for Niagara is based on broad and constitutional grounds. I differ from that hon. gentleman in regard to some of S02 these details, and on the whole, I am not sure if my views do not more nearly coincide with those of my hon. friend the Commis sioner of Crown Lands. Hon. Mr. CAMPBELL— I am very glad to hear my hon. friend say so. I would like him also to state if he goes with the hon. member for Niagara in desiring the delay of a month or delay for a longer period. Hon. Mr. VIDAL— That question will be fully answered when I come to touch upon that point. But I may state, that instead of offering a factious opposition by the course I intend taking, it is my loyalty to our Sovereign and country which induces me to support the amendment now before the House, not with the object of defeating this measure, but for securing its adoption on a broader and more permanent basis. How singular are the different views which are taken of our position and powers accord ing to the manner in which we may vote upon this question ! In one breath we are told that we are the representatives of the people, and we have a perfect right to vote upon it as we may see fit ; and in a few minutes afterwards, we are informed that if we do not vote upon it in a certain manner, we do not represent the people. I cannot possibly reconcile the two statements. Itis also said — and it is the only argument I have heard on the point — if indeed it can be called an argument at all — that if the present oppor tunity of aecuring the union of the provinces is allowed to pass unimproved, it will be a long time before we may look for another. I admit that the opportunity is one whioh has been long desired, and one wbich it will be wise policy to improve ; and it will be my humble endeavor to seek to do so to the best advantage. But if the measure is in reality fraught with the benefits which have been claimed for it, I cannot see how it will be jeopardized by a littlo delay; because the more its benefits are looked into, the better, it is reasonable to suppose, the people will be satisfied with them. I cannot see how the measure_ will be endangered by giving both the people and their representatives a Kttle longer time to become acquainted with its principles and its details. Since the commencement ofthe debate in this House, much light has been thrown on the scheme, and we have had the advantage of the explanations in the other Cbainber, and I am sure that the minds of hon. gentlemen must now be much better informed on parti cular points of the scheme than they were before we came here. For my own part, after having had my mind frequently direct ed to it, and after having listened attentively to the arguments of all the speakers, I am more and more impressed with the magh;^, tude and importance of the various interests on which our action is invited in thi mat ter, and I think we should proceed cautiously and slowly in taking the step before us — a change so great as that contemplated by the framers of these resolutions — a change amounting to nothing less than, as I before observed, a revolution in tbe whole system of governing the country. This is a step which, in order to be permanently successful, must rest on the principles of truth and justice, and these principles must be intelligently apprehended by the people to be governed. Notwithstanding all that h.iS been advanced in this chamber — all the assertions which have been made — in reference to the inform ation said to be possessed by the people of this country relative to this measure, I must say that I do not coincide in that opinion. I believe that the people of the country, as a whole, are not acquainted with the details. What new light has there been thrown on the reaolutiona aince we aaaembled here ? Have we not had our attention directed to the fact that even some who assisted in framing the resolutions, did not themselves know precisely what some of them meant ? Moreover, is it not the fact that the atten tion of the country has not to any great ex tent been called to any arguments against the scheme ? Now, in order to a right apprecia tion of the value and importance of the p'-oposed Confederation, it is right that the people should know and understand both sides of the question. They should not be carried away with the pleasing prospect held out to them of the advantages to be derived from forming part of a great Confederation, without being told at the same time of the cost at which these advantages are to be purchased. And this is all the more necessary because the movement did not originate with the people. All great constitutional changes ought to and usually do originate with the people. But this is an anomaly. Here we have a proposed Constitution framed by a self-elected body — I do not use the term reproachfully, because I hold that these hon. gentlemen did perfectly right in so meeting together — this, I say, is a Constitution which was not framed by a body appointed for the 303 purpose ; and it is sent down to us as a per fect document, which must be regarded as resembling a treaty which we have no power to alter even in the smallest detail. Hon. Mr. CAMPBELL— My hon. friend ^vils at the question of authority. But be must know thatthe Parliament of this country had sanctioned the formation of a Govern ment with the avowed intention of bringing about Federation ; and therefore there was authority for what was done from the people ofthis country. But my hon. friend is a mon archist, and recognizes other sources of au thority than those vested in the people. There is the authority of the Crown ; and on this point I would beg to refer him to the despatch which was received on this subject from the Secretary of State for the Colonies. It says : " With the sanction of the Crown, and upon the invitation of the Governor- General, men of every province, chosen by the respective LieutenantTGovernors, without distinction of party, assembled to consider questions ofthe utmost interest to every sub ject of the Queen, of whatever race or faith, resident in those provinoes, and have arrived at a conclusion destined to exercise a most important infiuence upon the future welfare of the whole community." So here was the sanction of the Crown so far as the action of the other provinces was concerned ; whilst our own Parliament directly sanctioned the formation ofa Government having this object in view. Hon. Mr. VIDAL — I have stated clearly and emphatically that I was satisfied with the formation of the Conference and what it did, so why my hon. friend the Commis sioner of Crown Lands should have thought it necessary to make the explanations he has just now done, I really do not know. I admitted — I never in the least disputed — that the Conference was properly, legally, and formally constituted. I gave the mem bers composing it all praise for the intelli gence and fidelity to the interests of the country with which they carried on their laborious negotiations. But I muat still re iterate my former statement, that on account of this movement not having emanated from the people — and the fact of there being no petitions before either branch of the Legis lature asking for it establishes this — we ought before i'^s adoption to have some ex pression of the views of the people, and con sequently that the motion in amendment made by my hon. friend the member from Niagara is one which I ought to support. I believe, after this debate has been concluded in both Chambers, and the full report of it which is being prepared has gone forth to the country, the people will be in a position to form a correct judgment on the merits of the case. They will then have before them perhaps all that could be said on one side or the other, and if they cannot then form a reliable judgment, it will be their own fault. There is no reason why this House should be at the very great expense — some $2,000 I believe — of printing so large a number of the debates as is being done, if the people are not to be consulted ; for unless they are to be aaked for a deciaion — if the acheme is to be carried into effect without consulting them — where is the necessity for placing be, fore them speeches and arguments which which will only have the effect of disturbing their minds ? In addition to saying that the plan has not emanated from the people, I contend that it haa not even emanated from the representatives of the people. Had these resolutions been framed by our own Govern ment, brought down like other Government measures into our Legislature, and there dis cussed, voted upon, and adopted by the ma jority, I should not think it necessary that there should be any reference to the people, though perhaps I might stiU think such refer ence desirable. But the fact is that the repre sentatives of the people have not been con sulted in the inatter; there has been no way left open whereby they can effect the amendment of any objectionable feature in the resolutions, or influence the Imperial Legislature on the proposed union. I pre sume honorable gentlemen will concur with me that if, after all that has been stated, the country should not desire the change — if the people at large should think they are really paying too much and making too con siderable a sacrifice to secure the anticipated benefits of this measure — it ought not to be paseed. (Hear.) Where, I would ask, is the danger to be apprehended in submitting the measure to the country ? Danger is to be apprehended from forcing upon the people a measure of which they may not approve. (Hear.) But nothing can be endangered by submitted this project to the people, if, as has been so strongly asserted and as I believe, the majority are in favor of it. If I thought an immediate reference to the people would jeopardise the scheme, perhaps I might hesitate in urging it as I now do — (hear, and laughter) — but I believe its object is really one desired by the country generally, 304 and there would be no risk in submitting it. Where is then the danger of delay ? — and delay is all we ask for. What struck me very much in the eloquent and able address of the Honorable Commissioner of Crown Lands was, that he never touched upon the real question of the amendment. It is true he said delays were dangerous, delay would lose the measure, but not a shadow of argu ment did he advance in proof of this view. I think delay is safety, in that it will enable the country and the Legislature to look into the scheme, to weigh all its advantages and disadvantages, if it has any, and so more certainly secure the passing of it if good, and the rejection of it if the reverse. Of course, honorable gentlemen , divers views may exist as to the way in which the opinion of the people on this question is to be obtained. I am not to be deterred from expressing my views by the taunt of republicanism ; a sneer never disturbs me when I have good ground for what I do or say. I have had to bear with many a sneer on account of my adhesion to the temperance cause, but they never moved me from my course. My belief is that the views of the people may be ascer tained without any such delay as will endan ger the scheme. It is to be presumed that the debate will not extend beyond a week or two, in both Houses. A very short time after it is concluded, and the pamphlets containing the speeches printed, a direct vote of the people might be taken with pro priety and safety. The proposition to sub mit the plan to the vote of the people seems at the first glance not to be British— our prejudices rise against it. We are, however, not to be guided by prejudices, but by reason and reflection ; and if we can find the best means of clearly and satisfactorily ascertaining what the people wish, that means ought to be adopted, call it by what name you may. I think that to put the matter to a direct vote in this way ia the beat plan. The people should be told : " Here ia the measure ; will you take it or will you not ?" We ahould not aak them to discuss amendments ; we could not bring the people of all the provinoes together for such a purpose, and if we allowed amend ments to be discussed, we should have inextricable confusion. The plain question should be proposed : Do you wish for this Confederation or not — yes or no ? Hon. Mr. ROSS — No power to alter its details ? Hon. Mr. VIDAL— No. That is the way the question is proposed to this House, and if it be wrong to submit it thus to the people, it is also wrong to submit it in such a manner to the Legislature. (Hear, bean) An additional motive for suggesting tl^ mode of proceeding is, that I should be extremely unwilling to subject myself to the censorious remarks of hon. gentlemen in the other Chamber who might reasonably say, if we propose to have a dissolution and a new election on the subject, 'It is all very well, but you keep your seats, while you send us home." I do not indeed aee why we might not with great propriety wait until the next general election, when, after two years of refiection and diacuaaioj, the people would be still better able to give an intelligent vote. I can see no objection to the wish of the people being thus ascertained in this par excellence constitutional way ; but as ministers tell us we cannot wait, then I say, let us rather have a direct vote of the people on the scheme than precipitate a general election. I should prefer a direct vote to a general election, because during an election other influences are at work besides purely political onea. In many places the personal popularity of a candidate outweighs the political leaning of the electors ; in others, a well-filled purse carries the day, or some local question pre judices a constituency and influences the minds of the voters. But upon a scheme such as this, if submitted directly to the country, none of these considerations would have any effect, and the electors would be guided by patriotism alone. So that while constitutionally the House represents the will of the people, and no fault could be found if the House, after a new election, were to pass upon the matter, still the object desired, viz., to know the desire of the people, would be more expeditiously and less expensively attained by a direct vote. It is of no use to call this method " Yankee " or " Repubhcan." It is well known that it prevailed as far back as the days of ancient Rome. Hon. Mr. LETELLIER DE ST. JUST — You may call it French, too. Hon. Mr. VIDAL— Yes, or, if you please, you may call it imperial; it has been resorted to in France and in Mexico. Itwould certainly in this case be fair — no one could have any ob ject for tampering with the votes of the peo ple, or obtaining a decision which was not a 305 truthful expression of their wish. We could obtain the views of the whole country in a short time — perhaps not within one month, but still in time enough to enable the mea sure to be adopted within the current year. Hie Legislature of New Brunswick is not to meet for some time yet; the question therefore cannot be soon settled there ; and if it were, it has still to go home to England, there to be embodied in an Imperial enactment before being acted upon. The Imperial Parliaraent has assembled and will probably continue in session, as it generally does, some five cr six months. Surely then there will be time to take the vote here I should like to have some reason adduced to convince me that there is danger in delay. I have heard an indistinct allusion to such danger- as being great in case war should suddenly come upon us. Now, hon. gentlemen, I hold this to be an objection whieh has no weight whatever. How long will it be, if we adopt the resolu tions, before this scheme can be <_'0t into ope ration ? I presume it will be twelve months, and if we can wait a twelvemonth, can we not wait two years without risk ? For, what immediate strength is tho raeasure to bring to us ? The moro uniting together of these provinces will not give us one additional soldier ; it will give ua no more nioney ; neither will it le3,?en tho extent of fron i ier to be defended, nor give us any increase of ii:ilitary power. As for its placing all the provinoes under tho direction of one mind — the only argument which I have heard applying to this part of the question — if we -n'ore in a state of war to day, fhe forcea of the whole would be under the direction of one mind. Do we think for one moment, that if a hoatile force set foot on the shorea of Canada, New Brunswick or Nova Scotia, the heart ofthe Empire would not thrill with indignation, and the whole force of the Empire not be brought to bear against the foe who thus insulted and defied the British Crown, just as readily in our isolated as it would be in our united con dition ? I think the danger from war is one on which no argument against submitting this measure to the people can possibly be based. (Hear, hear.) An hon. gentleman has stated that the defences of the country muat remain at a stand-still until Confede ration is accomplished. I do not know the source from which that opinion came, or whether it was spoken by authority. . If it were, it is certainly a startling announce ment. 40 Hon. Mr. ROSS— We havo eertainly been given to understand so, in this Houae. Hon. Mr, VIDAL— I do not, and cannot think the British Government ia going to leave us unprotected and undefended, even if Confederation should not take place. Hon. Mr. CAMPBELL—We may aa- aume that the preparations the Iraperial Government may make for the defence of these colonies may be materially affected by tbe result of our deliberationa on thia Con federation scheme — they may be influenced by our capacity for defence, an 1 the willing ness shown to exert ourselves. Hon. Mr. VIDAL — They may be even tually, but I am speaking of to-day, and I am sure Her Majesty's Government will readily send us to-day every assistance we mii;;lit need. Hon. Mr. MACPHERSON— No pro gresa is being made with our defences — the whole question of defence seema waiting for Confederation — nothiag ia being done. That fact must be patent to evory honorable r:iember of the Houi^^e. Uo.v. .Mr, VIDAL — They may aeem to be waiting, but why I cannot conceive, for evory argument that can be brought to bear to allow thatour dofeacEs will progress uader Confederation, can be equally available for that purpose now, (^Hear.) it has been said by the Hon, the Commissioner of Cro-^'n Land-f, in reply to the raeraber from Niagara, that tho country has not been taken by aur prise by these reaolutiona. In thi,s I differ iroiu him. It ia quite true that aa far aa the queation of union is concerned, it ia not new — ;lie thought of union has long occupied many minds — but I do contend, that with reference to many pointa comprised iu the acheme, the country haa been taken by sur prise. No thought, no knowledge whatever of the character of many of the changes proposed to be introduced ever eatered the minds of the people at large. Hon. Mr. CAMPBELL- It is asatisfac- fcory surpriae. (Hear.) Hon. Mr. VIDAL- It may ba a aatisfac- tory surprise; I have no doubt it is to many. It waa a satisfactory surprise to find that gentlemen from all the provincea, of different poUtical partiea, could meet to gether in auch an amicable way, and make auch mutual conoesaions aa to enable thia scheme to be presented at all. (Hear, hear,) This is just what ought to have been done. To repreaent me aa opposed to Confederation So6 is a great mistake. It is just because I appreciate its advantages, and wish to see them secured without any chance of danger resulting from the scheme having been too hastily adopted, that I speak as I do. (Hear, hear.) It is said the people were not appeal ed to when tho unions between England and Scotland, and Great Britain and Ireland, were brought about. That is quite true, but it is equally true that these unions were brought about by the Parliaments of those countries — the representatives of the people. The measures were arranged -with them, and the people were represented as to those unions by their Parliamenls. Hon. Mr. ROSS— That is just what ia the case here too. Hon. BIr. VIDAL — I beg the honorable gentleman's pardon. If he can find anything in this scheme whioh has emanated from tho Parliament, it is new to me. Are we not told that, if even one amendment is passed by Parliament, it will destroy the scheme? Hon. iMr. ROSS — The course taken here is exactly that which was adopted in Eng land. Negotiations first, then the subraission to Parliau.ent of their result. Hon. Mr. FERGUSSON BLAIR— The unions between England and Ireland, and England and Scotland, were not negotiations merely; they were treaties; they were called treaties — Hon. iMr. ROSS — They were negotiated firat, and submitted to Parliameit after warda. Hon. Mr. VIDAL — As it ia not my in tention to occupy tho time of hon. gentlemen on any other occasion during the debate, I shall venture to touch o't another point, not directly connected with the amendment be fore us, on which I said a few worda when I laat addressed the Houae on thia subject. We have heard much about the propoaed new constitution of the Legialative CouncU. We have been told it was politioal necessity that first forced the elective system on minds that were by no means enamoured of it, and this, I think, has been fully established. Now, it would ill become me, as an elected member, to dwell on any merits or excel lencies the elective system may have possessed as applied to this branch of the Legisla ture — it is a subject we can none of us touch upon with the samo freedom which we might if we were not ourselves elected — but I may call the attention of the House to this, that none of the evils that were dreaded, as likely to flow from the elective system, have yet shown themselves, and I do not think it at all reasonable, much less necessary, that they should be anticipated in time to come. My own views were in perfect accord with those of boo. gentlemen who protested against th'e ; system when it was first introduced. I diJ* not then consider it an improvement, and my views have not changed since ; I have, consequently, no personal predilections for an Elective Council, but far prefer a Chamber nominated by the Crown. But I am not here to carry out only my personal views or pre dilections, but to guard the rights and privi leges of my constituents; and I would remind hon. members that it is one thing to concede a privilege, but a very different thing to take it away. (Hear.) A privilege may be con ceded unasked, but it is a dangerous thing to take it away unasked or unassented to. (Hear, hear ) I cannot find either that the Canadian Government made any endeavor to maintain the elective principle ; I cannot see that the nomination system was forced on them by the wishes of the Lower Provinces. It may have been the desire of some ofthe Blaritime Provinces to maintain their nomi nation system, but tho change in ours was one which obviously met the wishes of the members of this Government, and no effort appears to h.ive been made by them to pre serve to the people of this country the privi lege they now enjoy of electing members of this House. (Hear.) I think, also, that there are objectionable features in certain provisions of the soheme for which the Canadian Governraent are responsible. I speak not as an opponent, but as one of their truest and best friends — one who is desirous to keep them from doing a wrong. It is not as an opponent to them or to Confederation that I support the amendment of the hon. member from Niagara. Hon. Mr. ROSS— I think that amend ment is a vote of want of confidence. Hon. Mr. VIDAL— So it has been said ; but the assertion is not warranted by the facts of the case ; it ia merely an arbitrary declaration . I cannot consent to be put in such a position aa I should occupy if I thought it were not. It is true, my hon. friends in the Government may say, •' You will not do for us if you vote th.it way ; " but I cannot sacrifice my views and vote contrary to my convictiona, in order to be counted as a friend. Hon. Mr. CAMPBELL— My hon. friend 307 must see that if all our friends entertained the same views, we could never get our mea sure through. Hon. Mr. VIDAL — In compelling tho first selection of legislative counciUors from the members of the Chamber, the Conference have put a restraint on the prerogative of the Crown which they had uo right to impose. I am unwilling for a moment to suppose that any low or unworthy motive actuated the Canadian delegate.=, who alone are respon sible for this detail, or that they did this in hopes of securing the votes ofany members of this House in favor of their scheme, which they could not otherwise have been sure of; still that part of tbe soheme has an awkward appearance, and some honorable members may feel with the member from Wellington (Hon. Mr. Sanborn), that if it be not a bribe, it looks something very like it. I, however, do not see it in that light. I do not think there has been anything worse than a desire to make the system of appointment palatable to the people, by taking a certain number of their representatives, whom they then sent to this House, to be members of the new one. (Hear, hear.) As to the boasted im partiality apparent in the 14th resolution, I do not attach any importance to its provi sions. If it were not the understanding that the selection would be made in the manner there laid down, there would be a strong party opposition to the measure, which was a thing to be avoided. (Hear, hear.) One more subject connected with this part of the scheme remains for me to speak on, and I think it is an important ono. Twenty-one members of this Honorable House are to be dismissed. It is quite true we do not know who they may be. A VOICE— Ballot for them. Hon. Mr. VIDAL —I am not speaking of the mode of selection. (Hear, hear.) — Twenty-one members of this Legislative Council are to be told that they are no longer wanted. Are tbey to be those called by Her Majesty in former times to sit here, or those representing the people? It seems to me only fair that those who hold appoint ments from tho Crown for life are entitled to retain their seats, to go first into the new. House, and the rejection wiU then be of the elected members. It wiU involve nearly half of these, and it is quite obvious that it places all honorable members of this Chamber in a very anomalous position to be called upon to VfOte on such a question as this. I may remark that it would have been much the wiser plan, and certainly much more conge nial to the feelings of the members of this House, had the Government thought fit to have passed these resolutions in the Legisla tive Assembly first, and then, if those who are more especially representatives of the people had chosen to pass this clause, we should have felt less hesitation. As it is, I feel it to be my duty to the constituency I represent to lift my voice against it. I have no right, without their consent, to vote away from them a right they may cherish, a fran- chiae they may value, even though I should thereby vote myaelf in for life, which would be a betrayal of my truat. Even my hon. friend from Saugeen — so recently aent here as the representative of that divisi;n — must admit that a great many of his constituents would vote " nay," if they thought the scheme of Confederation was to be purchased at the sacrifice of their representative. (Hear, and a laugh.) Hon. Mr. MACPHERSON— I believe a large majority of them would vote " yea." (Laughter.) Hon. Mr. A''IDAL — There is a difference of opinion between my honorable friend and myself on this point. (Hear, hear.) Hon orable gentlemen, I have said I ara favorable to the scheme of union — I say it sincerely and honestly — and notwithstanding the Honorable Commissioner of Crown Lands may say "It cannot be so; by supporting tho amendment you are destroying the scheme," I cannot see it so. My course, I think, is that which is most conducive to the succesa of the soheme. I consider myself one of its best and most faithful friends in seeking to have it more firmly based upon the approval of the people, at the cost of a trifling delay. A great deal has been said, aa an introduction to this measure, that was unworthy of it. We have had long accounts of political and party difficulties, which have been apoken of aa appertaining to it. These were too small matters to have led to this great constitu tional change. It was clearly seen by the people, as well as by Her Majesty's represen tative, that these difficulties were not based upon what they were 'said to be by some of our politicians. What docs His Excellency say in a memorandum to the Executive Council, communicated to this House on the 30th of June last? — "During this period, (of the late successive governments since the election of 1861,) no question involving any 308 great principle or calculated to prevent poli ticians, on public grounds, from acting in concert, has been raised in Parliament. The time had arrived wben an appeal might, with propriety, be made to the patriotism of gen tleraen oa both sides of the House to throw aside" — what? Their party .neasures ? their political interests ? No — "their personal dif ferences ! and to unite in one endeavor to advance the great interests of the country." A little further on he again raentions "the absence of public grounds for antagonism between them," and intimates plainly that " such a state of things was very prejudicial to the bsst interests of the province." As I have a'ready stated, the people were rapidly coming to the same conclusion, and this evil would soon have been removed by their action at the elections, without resort ing to any change in the Constitution. — Such were His Excellency's views, commu- nicatod to his Council in a memorandum, and I rejoiced to hear them enunciated by him They are views whioh, if held also by the people, would have led to a thorough cure fbr the evils under which we labored, even -without resorting to Confederation, for the people themselves were beginniog to see that their politiciil leaders were too much under the influence of bitter personal feel ings ; prominence was no longer given to the constitutional difficulty of unequal represent ation ; it was droppel both by its friends and its opponents. Yet representation by population was a question of such political importance, that its satiafactory solution would justify the bringing about such a change as this. That wan a sufficient motive to induce statesmen to join together and seek some way of escape from it. I think the scheme now submitted is perhaps the best that could have been found attainable, and I give its framers all credit for it. I am aatia fied with nine-tenths or perhaps more than nine-tenths of the whole, and I am willing to take the oilier tenth, if really neces-ary, for the sake of the rest. I think the very name, ami the prestige of our larger union will bave a desirable iufiueoce upon ourf'uture prosperity. It will infuse into us that feeling of national pride — those t atriotio aentimenta connected with our country, whicii it ia worth much to possess. (Hear.) I think, also, that ourcrerlit in money mijttera will be improved by the union, and it is worth some sacrifice to accomplish such results. I believe, further, that when this scheme is completed it will have the effect of attracting emigration, and thus adding largely to our population. As wc are, in our presented isolated condition, we either fail to attract emigrants or do uot manage to retain them ; but if we were known aa one great country, we should find hojies for many of those able-bodied, enter prising and industrious men.who constitute the groat strength and wealth ofa State. Itwould also, undoubtedly, promote our commerce and develope our trade and resources. It is weU to weigh all these considerations; they may not promise advantages so great as some of the sanguine advocates of the measure pre dict, but they are well entitled to fair and honest consideration. (Hear.) As to Con federation cheapening our government, that idea, I think, is a fallacy ; and here is one of the causes which may lead to future dissatis faction, if the eyes of the people are not opened 1 1 it until too late. The proper and the true way to act is to let the fact be known, that so far from Confederation being likely to lessen the expenses of government, it will be directly the reverse, and that to theso must be added the cost of tbose defences which are to be constructed — of this Intercolonial road which is to be a necessary part of the scherae — of these other works on the canals, &o , wo hear so much about. Confederation will, doubtless, be expensive ; theu why not say so — why nut say to tho people, " Hero are groat advan tages, but they will inevitably cost a large sum " I for one am. willing to take these advantages at that cost. I have not analyzed the numerous figures set before ns by my hon. friend fiom Niagara, for profusion and confusion in matters of figures ia a speech are very much the same to me. I will not pretend to follow him. But I have such confidence in the financial ability of those who watched over our interests, that I am unwilling to receive, except with great cau tion, those objections brought io figures against the raeasure. One honorable gentle man remarked that tho hand of an over ruling Providence might be observed as bringing about this scheme aud reconciling so u;any conflicting influences. That is very true, I delight to recognize an over ruling Providence influeucing the lives of individuals and nations. I rejoice that the blessing of an over-ruliog Providence on the deliberations of this House is daily asked, and I have faith to believe it wUl be granted to us But 1 should have 309 the same comfortable feeling if the question were referred to the people; so that as an argument in favor of our making an imme diate decision does not amount to much, and it certainly docs not impose on ua the duty of hastily taking the whole scheme as it is. (Hear, hear.) I have endeavoured, hon. gentlemen, to show that I am guided by an honest, earnest desiro to advance the interests of the country by the course I now propose to take in reference to this amendment, and I have endeavored to disabuse the minds of those who think that in supporting it I ara acting in hostility to a scheme which I believe will be advantageous to the country, but the advantages of which I think cannot be secured without referring it to the people. I presume it is altogether likely — perhaps I may consider it a certainty — that this is to be the last time I shall appear as a represen tative in the Council of my country. I am anxious, short as my parliamentary career has been and is probably destined to be, that it should be unsullied by anything that can even have the appearance of selfishness. I ara, therefore, unwilling to record a vote which might either have the effectof raaking me a member for life, or of helping to take away the privilege which my constituents at present enjoy, of having a representative in the Legislative Council. (Hear, hear.) Hon. Mr. BUREAU— It is not my in tention to take part in the debate on the amendment which is now engaging the atten tion ofthis Honorable House; but I really do uot feel justified in passing over in silence the declaration which has just been made by the hon. meraber for Toronto (Hon. Mr. Ross ) That gentleman said, with perfect naivetd, that if the Ministry submitted a bill respecting the organization of the local governments, the course would be a bad one ; for, said he, difficulties would probably arise in relation to the matter, whicii might result in the resignation of several members ofthe present Cabinet. In those i'evi words the hon. member fur Toronto has furnished the boat -iiguaicnt in favor of the delay for whioh we ask ; but such was not his intention. In a similar sense, sorae other hon. members have, in my opioion, exhibited a degree of f"rcc and logic which is truly remarkable. Rut can it be possible to make ,i request more essentially legitimate in its character than that of the hon member for Niagara? Por my pai t, I do not think so. And indeed, what can be more reasonable than the wish to know, and to be in a position to form a sound, complete and satisfactory opinion, both for ourselves and for our constituents, res pecting the scheme whicii is proposed to us ? Has not this House a right to require the present Government, within a reasonable period, to lay before it, not only in a general way, but also and more especially in detail, the various aspects ofthe Constitution which it is wished to have voted with such strange and imprudent precipitation ? Let us re raeraber that sometimes no difficulty what ever is raised to devoting an entire session to the consideration of a measure of second- aiy importance. Last year no attempt was made to pasa a new Militia Bill at railroad speed, as it is now proposed to do with tho measure for Coofederation; on the contrary, all the time necessary to complete it and to examine it in all its aspects was devoted to ita consideration. And yet, how immense fhe difference between these two measures, in regard to their importance and the solemn conaequences which might result from them 1 And further, it cannot be denied, the plan which it is sought to make ua adopt is as yet but imperfectly known to the Canadian Le gislature, and the people hardly know its outlines, not having yet had tirae to examine into it, so closely have our ministers invested it with mystery and secrecy. I consider that the hou. member for Toronto shewed rather too rauch zeal in tho cauiie of his friends when he proceeded to make that declaration, whicii was heard by the House with well- marked aurpriae. I am prepared to acknow ledge that in so doing he has done ua a very great service. I have no doubt whatever, in fact, that as we have beon told by the hon. gentleman, the disclosing of the organ ization of the local governments during this phaae ofthe diaoussion would, forthe Admi nistration of the day, be an act of imprudence, and one whioh, it ia highly probable, would subject it to serious difficulties. I am also of opinion that one of tho difficulties, of by no means the least importance, which is feared is that respecting the distribution or division of the partof the public debt which will have to be borne by the different provinces. Indeed it may, with very great reason, bo asked whether it will be pu.ssible to corae to an un derstanding ou this point. With a degroo of courage worthy of a better cause, the Ministry now comes to us and says : " First vote the Address, and afterwards we wUI lay before you the scheme for the organisation 310 of the local governments." But let us note the contradiction in this on the part of the Government, and how illogical its conduct is. Let us for a moment suppose that this meas ure gives rise to difficulties in the Cabinet, during the discussion on the details of the scheme, of sufficient importance to entail the resignation of the Administration. What happens? The Addre,ss having been voted by our Legislature, is sent to England, and whilst the Imperial Government is engaged in ratifying it and incorporating it in a bill, which is to become our Constitution, the preaent Ministry succumbs under the details of the scheme reapecting the local govern ments. A new ministry succeeds them, an appeal to the people probably takes place in the interval, and when the new Constitution comes to us from Great Britain, we have a Government and a Legislature ready to reject it before its promulgation. In view of such a prospect as this, ought we to be in a hurry to accede to the request ofthe Government and refuse the legitimate delay asked for by the motion now before this Honorable House? I have, then, considered that I ought not to pass over in silence the declaration of the hon. member for Toronto, for I am of opinion that it is of a nature to convince us that pre cipitation in so highly solemn a matter is most dangerous. The Constitution of a country should not be changed from base to summit until those who are appointed to watch over the pubhc interests, and the very Constitution in question, have had time to see and to ascertain, in a positive manner, that such a change is necessary and called for by the people. (Hear, hear.) Hon. Mr. OLIVIER— Honorable gen tlemen, in again rising to address the Houae, I beg to assure you that I do not propose to repeat the observations I have already made on a previous occasion ; but being pressed for time, I was obliged to omit to refer to certain aspects of the scheme on which I proposed to offer a few reraarks when the present motion should be before the House. I was aware that this motion would come up for discussion, as it appeared upon our Mintdes of Proceedings. With these few preliminary observations I shall proceed, honorable gentlemen, to offer a few remarks on some few points in the scheme which I was compelled to pass over in silence on the occasion of my first address on the plan of Confederation now submitted for our consideration. I must refer here, honorable gentlemen, to a wonderful incident of this afternoon's sitting. A declaration, novel in every respect to each one of us, fell from the lips of the Honorable the Minister of Crown Lands, who haa only had this one sole reason to offer us in explanation of, and excuae for, the precipitate haate with which hia Government is endeavoring to obtain the adoption of the new Constitution : — " We are anxious to obtain the vote of this House, to transmit it to New Bru nswiok and to the other Maritime Provinces which are to enter into the Confederation." This, then, is the real reason of this incomprehensible and indecent haste, for I cannot believe that the reason given by the hon. member who sits immedi ately opposite to me (Sir N. F. Belleau), in explanation of this haste, can be a serious one. It is difficult, indeed, not to consider as some what absurd the reason alleged by the Hon. Sir N. F. Belleau: — "The Ministry are anxious that this scheme should be adopted forthwith, because Lord Palmerston is already an old man, and might dio at any moment." I would rather accept the reason given by the Hon. Minister of Crown Lands than that of my honorable friend, because I cannot believe he was authorized to give it. Thus this House and the country now know the secret of this precipitate haste on the part of the Government, and I have no doubt they will bear it in mind. But I will venture to enquire of the Honorable the Minister of Crown Lands, who has given us this very absurd reason, whether he hopes to deceive the people of the Lower Provinces by the vote which he desires to precipitate. I will ask him whether it is to be desired that this House should forthwith give a vote on this question, a vote which will undoubt edly have the effect of leading them into error as regards the feelings and opinions of the people of this country in relation to the project of Confederation. WeU, honorable gentlemen, I do not for one moment hesitate to declare to this Houae, that the fact alone of the anxiety of the Government to obtain forthwith a vote of this House on this im portant measure, is that which ought most of all to put us on our guard, and ought to cause us to determine not to give it lightly, and in a manner unworthy of prudent and wise legislators. Indeed, honorable gen tlemen, our vote will have a significance which it will be vain to seek to diminish. 311 We constitute the highest branch of the Parliament of this country, and when the Lower Provinces hear that we have voted for this measure in the shape iu which it has been laid before us, they will naturally and with reason believe that our vote has been given with a thorough knowledge ofthe matter, and that we fully indicate the popular feeling on this important question. They will never for a moment imagine that we have set at naught and ignored the opinions of those whom we repreaent in thia Houae ; they will never believe th at the country haa been ao little conaulted in the matter as it in fact has been. I assert, therefore, honorable gentlemen, that the vote which it is sought to make us give to-day is calculated to deceive the people of the Lower Provinces, both as to the views of this Honorable House and as to the opinions of the vast majority of the people of this province, and that we cannot give it with satisfaction either to ourselves or to those whom we represent. I have already taken occasion to state before to-day, that the scheme of Confederation had not been sub mitted to us complete. I am prepared to prove this statement ; I maintain that only one part of the scheme has been laid before us, and under these circumstances, I would ask this Honorable House, if it is prudent to accept and sanction that with which we are but imperfectly acquainted ? When I accepted from my oonstituents their nomination to the Legislative Council, I did so with the firm determination never to accept blindly the various measures which might be sub mitted for my approval in this House. This resolution I have adhered to hitherto, and I hope that I shall never forget it in the course of my public career. A few minutes ago I remarked, honorable gentlemen, that the plan of Confederation had not been sub mitted to us complete; I now propose to prove this assertion. By art. 6 of the 43rd res olution, we perceive that the local legislatures will have the power of making laws in relation to education, saving, however, the rights and privileges enjoyed by the Catholic and Pro testant minorities in relation to their separ ate schools at the time of the union ; so that by this resolution we are to affirm that the minorities shall be bound by the school laws which will be in force at the moment when Confederation will take effect. On the other hand, we are told that a measure wUl be brought down for the better protec tion of the rights of the Protestant minority in Lower Canada, whilst at the same time we are not informed whether the same ad vantages will be accorded to the Catholic minority in Upper Canada. Thus these school laws form a portion of the scheme upon which we are called to vote, and if unfortunately, after we have adopted these resolutions we are unable to obtain jus tice for the Upper Canadian minority, shall we not be guilty of having voted for the scheme without having known all about it ? We ought then to be on our guard. If, as it is pretended, the meaaure will not endanger the rights of the Catholic minority in Upper Canada, why are we refused the details and the information which we aak to have afforded to ua before pronouncing on the merits of the plan ? I maintain that any one who desires that justice should be extended to the minorities in question, would not know how to vote as wo are called upon to do. In the absence of the information which we are entitled to demand from the Govern ment aa to the nature ot the guaranteea to be offered by the new Conatitution to the minorities of the two provinces of Canada, I do not for one instant hesitate to declare that this Honorable House is justified, and indeed fulfils a sacred duty in demanding the delay sought for by the motion ofthe boa. member for Niagara. If it should so happen that the people are called upon to pronounce on the merits of the measure, it becomes of the utmost necessity that we, their representa tives, should be able to explain and point out to them the details of the scheme. Wc have then every reason to inaist that thia information ahould be aupplied to us. The Premier will now permit me to put to him a queation. May it not happen, after the adop tion of theae reaolutiona, that the Proteatant majority of Upper Canada may ally itself with the Protestant minority of Lower Canada in the present Parliament, and de prive the Catholic majority of Upper Canada of the rights which they are entitled to enjoy in relation to the education of their children ? Should such an event occur, I would ask the hon. Premier what means the aggrieved minority might bo able to adopt iu order to obtain justico ? Hon. Sir E. P. TACHJfi— I will inform you when the proper time comes. Hon. Mr. OLIVIER— The hon. the Premier ought to give us the details of the measure on this subject. I do not mean to assert that I am opposed to every possible 312 form of Confederation ; but what I can never consent to is to vote for a Confederation of which I know neither the exact nature nor the details. The article which I have already q noted is one of those to which I desired more particularly to draw attention. I will now quote the 67 th resolution. I find by this resolution " that the General Government will fulfil all engagements entered into, pre vious to the union, with the Imperial Gov ernment, for the defence of the country." Now, strange to say, the authors of this docu ment do not even lake the trouble to slate by whom such engagements must bo made. No, tbey simply assert the obligation in the terms of the resolution I bave just quoted. Sup pose our Government had entered into an engagement to the extent of fifty millions of dollars, shtill wc — can we — affirm that the engagement was a necessary one, by voting for the measure without knowing fhe nature of the engagement ? Coming now to the 68th resolution, I find : "The General Gov ernment will cause to be completed, without delay, the Intercolonial Railway, from Riviere du Loup, through New Brunswick, to Truro, in Nova Scotia," Now, hon. gentlemen, I maintain tbat this is another portion of the plan with which we ar:; not acciuainted. We do not know what is tobe the cost of this railway thus described in the resolution I have just read. Here, again, wo are kept in tho most complete ignorance by the present Government. Au honorable member of this House haa declared, that though the Intercolonial Railway wore to coat fitly millious of dollars, we should not hesitate to support a measure for oariyicg it out; fbr, even at that price — that exorbi tant price — it would be for the interests of the country, ^\'ell, I ask you, would this House be acting in accordance with that spirit of -wisdom and prudence which ought to characterize it, by voting blindly for such an enormous expenditure as that ? I do not believe it, and for my part, I do not hesitate an instant to say that I would refuse, I am well aware, it is true, that tho construction of this gigiDtic railway cannot cost so large a suti ; but it is generally admitted, both in this House and out of it, that the work cannot be done for less than twenty millions. -Moreover, does it not often happen that public works estimated to cost, say one million of dollars, arc found to have cost, when finished, double and more than double tbat amount? Tbia may happen with the Intero-ilonial Railway, which, it is perfectly clear, wUl cost more than is supposed ; and I repeat it, this Houae ought to hesitate before sanctioning such an enormous expen diture out of a public treasury already heavily charged, and which will scarcely be in a more flourishing position when tho various British provinces of this continent are united under the Confederation. I am justified, then, in demanding that the detaila of the plan should be made known to ua before we are called upon to sanction it. I have already stated that I do not pretend to be opposed to Federation of the provinces in every possible shape — that I might support a Confederation not of too onerous a charac ter for this country— but it is obviously quite impossible for me to support a project of this kind, with which I am unacquainted, in its details and as a whole. It appears to me that the Ministry cannot complain if, under these circumstances, we vote against a project which we desired to know fully in order to form our opinions concerning it, and to ascertain that of the people we repre sent. I do not think it can be pretended that this Ilouse ia not entitled to make so j ust and reasonable a request. As I have shown, hon. gentlemen, if wc accept the resolutions presented to us, Vfe endanger the rights of the minorities in both sections of the pro vince ; wo expose ourselves to the payment of enormous sums for the construction of a railway which may prove to be utterly useless for the defence of the country. It seems to me that, before undertaking such onerous charges, we ought to re flect deeply and to weigh well all pos sible chances of such serious eventua'itiea. I am quite aware that certain hon. membera of this House will never yield to the reaaona I have advanced, nor shall I undertake to bring them round to my views; for I feel that all my efforta must be uaeleas. The fact that we refuse to accept the mossurc proposed to us belore weare acquainted with it, certainly doea not imply, as it is stated and supposed, that wo are opposed to every idea of Confederation. Another provision of the project which we cannot approve is that by which tbe conatitution of the Legia lative Council is based on the nominative principle, instead of tho elective principle which now prevails, aa regards that branch of the Legislature, under our own Govern ment. I bave already had occasion to ex press my opinion as to the constitutional 313 changes' undergone by our own Legislative Council, so that I need not recur to that sub ject. The Hon. Commissioner of Crown Lands has asserted that we are justified in voting on the proposed reversal of the Con stitution without an appeal to the people. I beg to differ from that opinion. I know the nature of a trust, whether civil or political; they both entail very much the same duties. Well, what is the charge en trusted to us by our constituents ? That of working out the present Constitution to the best of our understanding and of our judg ment. Such is the power entrusted to us ; but never have our electors authorized us, as it ia now propoaed to do, to destroy the Constitution itself and to enter into a political alliance with the other British provinces of this continent. Au instance of a similar constitutional subversion, without tbe authorization of the people, is net to be found in the pages of history. It has been stated in this House that the project of Con federation was known to a portion of the people, and that there was nothing to pre vent its adoption being pressed. Here again, I beg to differ with the hon. members who express that opinion. I think that even though the project were, as stated, known by a portion of the people, that would not be a reason for precipitating its adoption, for the plan interests the whole country generally, and it ia not sufficient that it should be acceptable to a certain portion of the inhabitants, but to the great mass of the people. Moreover, if the public meetings already held in Lower Canada serve to in dicate the popular opinion relative to this question, in this section of the country at all events, it may fearlessly be said that the project has been condemned in fifteen counties. Will any one ven ture to pretend th-at Lower Canada is to be of no account in the Confederation, and that Upper Canada alone has a right to make its voice heard ; that only ita approval or disapproval of the scheme can entail the adoption or rejection of that scheme ? Most assuredly, I do not believe that any one would ever venture to enunciate such a pretension. I know of but one single county in Lower Canada which authorized ita represent!.tive to vote on the scheme in question as he should think fit. I therefore consider that I am justified in saying, that the reason which induces the Government to cause this measjjre to be adopted without •Wbmitting all it§ Retails, is that it fears to have those details known by the people, who no doubt would have no course left save to reject them. After having displayed Con federation clothed in the most brilliant colors, the Administration fears to allow the people to examine it in its true light, and as it is intended to thrust it upon them. I have already stated tbat throughout the whole of Lower Canada, but one county has been found which granted to its representative the privilege of voting on this question according to his own judgment. In all the remaining counties in which the people have been called together to pronounce upon it, the scheme of Confederation has been formally condemned. Hon. Mr. GUEVREMONT— Several counties pronounced themselves in favor of the scheme; among others, the county of Vaudreuil.' Hon. Mr. OLIVIER— I am not aware that the county of Vaudreuil voted in favor of Confederation. The honorable member for Richelieu had also mentioned the county of Richelieu as one of those which had not rejected the scheme of Confederation. Hon. Mr. GUEVREMONT— The meet ing in question did not condemn Confeder ation. It merely declared itself in favor of certain resolutions which were submitted to it, which demanded that the people should be consulted as to the proposed constitutional changes. Hon. M«. OLIVIER- It is perfectly true that the county of Richelieu never condemned the details of the measure, and for a very simple reason : the Government had never allowed them to be known, and still persists at thia preaent time in keeping the country in ignorance of them. But tbe honorable gentleman admits that the county of Riohelieu directed its represen-Lative to demand an appeal to the people. To say that Lower Canada is favorable to the scheme of Confederation, ia to make an assertion to which the public meetings which have been held within the laat month or two give the lie in the most formal manner. I know w hat to think ofthe expression of public opinion in the district of Montreal; as to the district of Quebec, perhaps the honorable gentlemen who represent the aeveral divisions com prised in it will be good enough to tell me whether or not there have been any meetings in favor of Confederation ? Until I am shewn that the project has been ap proved there, I shall venture to believe that in the district of Quebec, as in the district of Montreal, public opinion has not approved 314 of the proposed Confederation. I do not wish to assert that the country at large is averse to any idea of Confederation, but I maintain that it cannot be in favor of a scheme with the details of which it is un acquainted, and of the entirety of which it is ignorant. The most effectual means of providing for the defence of a country is to make the people attached to the Constitution of the country ; to attempt to force a con stitution upon them is, in plain language, to impel them towards anarchy. Ah ! we are already surrounded by dangers enough to abstain from aggravating our position. Let us conduct ourselves so that the people may be attached to tbeir constitution, and then we may rest assured that they will be ready to defend it when it is threatened. Undoubtedly, it is not by acting as we are now doing that we shall attain that result. The reason assigned by the Honorable Com missioner of Crown Lands for urging on this measure does not appear to me to be suffi cient. We are not here to pleaae the Mari time Provinces or to legislate ia their inter ests, but we are here to preserve the rights of our fellow-citizens. We did not come here with a predetermined reaolution to throw impediments in the way of any plan of union. We are all interested in the pros perity and greatness of our country. The last time I had the honor to address this Honorable House, I stated that with respect to tbe questions wbich possessed the highest interest for Lower Canada, the proposed Confederation would be a legislative union, that is to say, that we should be at the mercy of Upper Canada and the Maritime Provinces. I expressed that opinion in good faith, and if I was incorrect in my conjec tures, I hope that the members of the Government will be good enough to enlighten me on the subject, and point out my error. Such was not done at the time, for I cannot accept as a satisfactory reply the few expla nations given on the subject by the honorable member who sits opposite to me. I say that the Federal Government will have power to declare that religioua corporations, for in stance, shall not be allowed to hold real estate of more than a certain value — more than is required for the immediate necessities of their establishments. It wUl also have power to enact that there shall be no con nection between Church and State. I say that the powers of the F'ederal Government will be so great that Lower Canada will be a cypher in the affairs which most concern her. Hon. Sir E. P. TACH:E— Yes ! yes ! of course. Hon. Mr. OLIVIER— I am glad that the honorable and gallant Knight confesses so much. Hon. Sir E.P. tache— The hon._ mem ber must surely understand my meaning in saying "yes." He must be aware that I mean it in irony. Hon. Mr. OLIVIER— If the honorable and gallant Knight says it in irony, I for my part can only tell him that I regret to see, when I ask questions in sober earnest con cerning the affairs of the country, when I ask for information on so important a matter, I can get no answer but an ironical one. I ask for information, because I confess, for my part, that I may be mistaken in my opinions on this matter. My opinions are not infallible any more than those of the members of the Quebec Conference — any more than those of the Lower Canadian members ofthe Miniatry; and it is for that very reason that I seek information which may serve to enlighten me and enable me to form a correct judgment on the question. Have those who devised this scheme the presumption to think that they are not liable to mistake ? When I ask for the details of the scherae in the name of my constituents, I am answered ironically. But I know what auch answers are worth. I know that some persons have recourse to irony when they have no serious answer to make, when they have no solid reasons to give. I know what discussion is ; and, ifl have not often mixed in the debates of this Honorable House, I have argued at the bar, and I am perfectly aware that tbose who have no valid reasons to oppose to the pleas of their adversaries, endeavor to shift their ground and blink the issue, by calling attention to some minor point and calling in the aid of irony. If I am denied the explanations which I claim in this place, how can I answer the questions which my constituents have a right to ask me ? But I must now address myself to the consideration of the appointment of members by mandamus which is to be introduced into the new Constitution of the Federal Legisla tive Council. When I heard the honorable and gallant Knight tell the history of the last moments of the Legislative Council sitting under that authority, I took it as the strongest sentence of condemnation of the present scheme. He told us in effect, that those members who had been appointed for life were honorable men, who by their position 315 and their integrity were rightly entitled to carry their heads erect; whereas, when they passed along the streets, it was with heads drooping. Why is this ? Hon. Sir E. P. TACH:^— I did not say that they hung their heads as they walked the streets. I said they were honorable men who had a right to carry their heads high wherever they went, but that they wer3 averse to coming here to sit in the Council on account of the prejudices of public opinion which had been misguided. Hon. Mr. OLIVIER— The unanimous opinion of a country is not so misguided, and the opinion of the country was unani mous in condemning the system of nomina tion to the Council by the Crown. In order to produce as great unanimity of public opinion as prevailed in regard to that system, the cause which leads to it must be slow and deep-seated — the grounds of dissatisfaction must be real. Both Lower' and Upper Ca nada must have suffered long under that system, to condemn it as they both did ; and I regret deeply to hear from the honorable and gallant Knight that he ia willing to return to it. It may be that as men advance in years they may change their viewa and opiniona; but it seems to me that they ought not to change them in ao abort a apace of time as tbe honorable and gallant Knight has changed his in regard to the Constitution of the Legislative Council. It is not so very long since the document which has been read tbis evening was signed. I say, then, that the history told us by the honora ble and gallant Knight is the condemnation of the system now sought to be introduced. After what the honorable and gallant Knight has said about the councUlors appointed by the Crown, wilh what grace can the new councillors come here to take their seats ? Will not the prejudice against them be stronger than ever ? inaamuch as it will be said that those who have voted for the scheme now before us have done it to keep their seats as long as ihey live. What respect can the people feel for such a House ? Hon. Sir E. P. TACH:fi— We know that you will not barter the rights of the people for a mess of pottage. Hon. Mr. OLIVIER— Nor for a dish of gold either. I ask whether the Government of the honorable and gallant Knight have ever found me among those who ask their favora? Hon. Sir E. P. TACflfe— Ididnot accuse you of it. Hon. Mr. OLIVIER— No, but you in sinuate as much. Hon. Sir E. P. TACHE— It is you wbo say that the seats for life are a bait for coun cillors. Hon. Mr. OLIVIER — I see the meaning of the honorable and gallant Knight, and when I am told ironically that I would not barter the rights of the people for a mess of pottage, I have a right to say that I would not sell them even for a dish of gold ; for so far, thank God ! no government have ever reckoned me among thoae who aak their favora. I live by my labor, and want nothing from the Government. I took notice of an expreaaion made use of by the honorable and gallant Knight in speaking of the laat momenta of the Legialative Council appointed by the Crown. He told us that to restore the credit of the Legislative Council it had been found neceaaary to make it elective ; but thia was not the sole inducement for the change; there was another motive quite as reasonable for making tbe Council elective, and this motive waa that in cauaing the Councillora to be elected, they would be taken from among all parties in the country, and would, therefore, repreaent the public opinion of the different parties in it. There wis a time, under the old order of things, when the opinions of two or three men reaiding in the cities of Quebec and Mont real formed the public opinion of all Lower Canada. This had a bad effect, for the public opinions of the different parties in the country ought to be represented in this Houae aa well as in the other. It waa fbr the purpose of attaining this end that the country was broken up into divisiona, that it waa required that the councillora elected ahould be reaidents in the divisiona, or should be the owners of real estate within their limits of the value of £2,000 ; but under the system of Crown nominations to seats in this House, the choice might fall, as it formerly did, on persons residing in the large cities ; it would not be difficult for them to acquire £1,000 worth of real estate in the divisions, and the country would not be equally represented in this Houae. An other reaaon why the elective aystem is preferable to that of nominations by the Crown, is that on every fresh election the newly elected member represents the opinions of the people then prevaihng, whereas coun cillors appointed for life may sometimes represent public opinion as it existed twenty 316 years before. The progresa of tho country requires that from time to time men should enter this Houae as repreaentativea of the opinions of the day. Hon. Mr. ARMSTRONG moved that the Houae do now adjourn. — Contenta, 21 ; Non-Contenta, 29. Hon. Mr. OLIVIER— I shaU now en deavor to answer an objection made by the Hon. the Commissioner of Crown Lands (Hon. Mr. Campbell) to the motion ofthe honorable member for Niagara (Hon. Mr. Currie). He would make it appear that the motion ia inconsistent with the position taken by the honorable member who seconded the motion, because he declared himself as favorable to Confederation. For my part, I can see no inconsistency in the proceeding of the honorable member, who merely asks that time be allowed that tbe people may give their opinions on the question. He does not care in what manner it is allowed. If the Government do allow time for the purpose, it will rest with them to say whether the question shall be submitted to the people by means of a general election, or some other way. The amendment of the honor able member for Niagara does not suggest any particular way of ,aubmitting the ques tion to the country. He only asks that it be so submitted, leaving to tbe Govern ment to choose the most convenient method of doing it. And this is exactly the position which I have myself taken. I have told honorable members who seemed to believe me altogether opposed to Confederation, that it is not the case, that I only want time to ascertain whether the people are in favor of the scheme or not. Only if the project is submitted to the people, it is desirable that it be presented to them in all its details, and not in the skeleton shape in which it is now laid before us. I have no intention to weary the attention of the House, but I thought it right to express my views and say why I intend to vote in favor of the motion of the honorable member for Ni agara. (Hear, hear.) The amendment moved by the Hon. Mr. Currie was then put to the vote, and lost on the following division : — Contents. — The Honorable Messieura Aikins, Archambault, Armstrong, Chaffers, Currie, Dick son, A. J. Duchesnay, E. H. J. Duchesnay, Flint, Leonard, Malhiot, Olivier, Perry, Proulx, Head, Reeaor, Seymour, Simpson, and Vidal. — 19. NoN-CoNTENia. — The Honorable Measieura Alexander, Armand, Sir N. F. Belleau, Bennett, Blake, Boulton, Bull, Burnham, CampbeU, Chria tie, Crawford, De Beaujeu, Dumouchel, Poster, Gingras, Guevremont, HamUton (Inkerman), Hamilton (Kingston), Lacoste, McCrea, McDon ald, McMaster, Macpherson, Matheson, Mills, Panet, Ross, Shaw, Skead, Sir E. P. Tach6, and Wilaon. — 31. On motion of the Hon. Mr. Aikins, the debate was then adjourned. Monday, February 20, 1865. Hon. Mr. AIKINS said— Hon. gentle men, when I last had the honor of address ing the House, it wiU be remembered by thosehon. gentlemen who were present that I spoke very strongly in relation to the changes contemplated by these resolutions in refer ence to this Chamber. Since then, although I have listened very attentively to the speeches of honorable gentlemen, I have heard no good reason to convince me that the elective principle as regards thia honorable House should be abolished. It haa been aaaerted by thoae who are strong advocates of Confederation, that if any amendment ia pasaed affecting the general principles of the resolutions,itwill be considered a defeat ; that the scheme will have to be considered again, and that negotiations with the Maritime Provinces will have to be resumed in order to meet the altered view of the case. Had the amendment ofthe hon. member for Wellington (Hon. Mr. Sanborn) been car ried, this might have been the case ; but as the motion which I am about to move applies only to tho Canadas, that would not be so. It will be remembered that that amendment affirmed not only the elective principle for all the provinces, but that the life members who are now sitting in this House should continue to hold their seats. It went further and declared that a number to correspond with the life members should be admitted to the Chamber' from the Maritime Provinces. In referring to the vote which was taken on tbis amendment, I find that in the 41 votes cast against it, 11 of the Hfe members of the House voted against, while only three voted for it ; thus they, by a large majority vote, negatived the principles therein affirmed. I refer to this particularly, for this reason, that the ground may be taken by the life mem bers in this Chamber that my amendment is specially directed against, and if carried, would be applicable to these hon. gentle- 317 men. The vote they have already given on the resolution referred to is my vindication, and they, in affirming the general principles of the Confederation resolutions, will vote for that which may deprive them of their seats. Hon. Ma. CAMPBELL— Hear, hear. Hon. Mr. AIKINS— The hon. Commis sioner of Crown Lands cries " Hear, hear !" But, after the life members of the House have affirmed by their votes that they do not desire that the elective principle should obtain, I do not think they can find fault with me, an elective member, for affirm ing that it should prevail. And it does appear to me, hon. gentlemen, that this House, if constituted as foreshadowed by these resolutions, would be one of the most independent and irresponsible bodies that could possibly be created, tbe Crown possess ing no power whatever over it. There is no power of dissolution ; the Crown has no power to add to the nuraber ; and whatever difficulties might possibly occur under the elective system, when the opportunity is afforded to the people of correcting those diffi culties, it will be found that these difficulties will be largely increased under the proposed system. It has been stated by some hon . mem bers that a dead-lock might occur. That was the impression which prevailed when the elect ive principle was introduced ; but few have thought proper to use such an arguraent during the present debate, because it has not been proved by the result. But if it were possible for a dead-lock to occur under the elective system, it is far more probable under the system proposed in the resolutions. If a feeling had been manifested by thia Chamber since the elective principle waa introduced — if we had attempted in any one respect to usurp the exclusive privileges of the Legislative Assembly — it might then with truth be affirmed that the introduotion of the elective principle in this Chamber was a dangerous one. But such has not been the case. I think that the elective principle has worked well, and that so far as the danger of a conflict is concerned, it is as far removed under the preaent system as under the nominative system. Holding theae views, I have thought it proper to place my amend ment before the Houae, and I trust that the question will be discussed fairly on its merits. I beg now to move, seconded by Hon. Mr. Bureau, — To resolve, in amendment to the resolutions of the Hon. Sir E.P; Tache, — That the Legialative Councillors repreaenting Upper and Lower Canada in the Legislative Council of the General Legis lature, shall be elected as at preaent, to repreaent the forty-eight electoral diviaiona mentioned in schedule A of chapter first of the Consolidated Statutes of Canada, and each such Councillor shall reaide or poaaeaa the qualification in the division he ia elected to repreaent. The ground may be taken by many hon. gentlemen who are strongly in favor of this soheme, that there is much more symmetry in the scheme presented by the resolutions, and which this motion, if carried, would mar. But really there is very little harmony in them. Under them the appointed council lors will, in Lower Canada, be required to reside in certain divisions or to hold their property there. In Upper Canada the same property qualification applies, but as to residence there is no restriction; whilst in one of the Maritima Provinces (Prince Ed ward) qualification is based on personal property only. Hence there ia in reality very little aymmetry about tbe scheme. (Hear hear.) Hon. Sir N. F. BELLEAU raised the point of order that the amendment had in substance been already disposed of by the vote on the amendment of Hon. Mr. Sanborn. The Hon. the SPEAKER— The ques tion of order raised by the hon. gentleman is whether the amendment now proposed is not substantially the same as the one voted on by tbe House and brought forward by the Hon. Mr. Sanborn, and if it is, whether it ia in order? Before giving my deciaion, I wish that the mover of the ;;mendment ahould himaelf explain tbe difference between hia motion and that already decided by tho Houae, if he thinks proper to do so. Hon. Mr. AIKINS— I contend that it is not the same, in effect, as the motion brought forward by the hon. member for Welling ton. It is true that the elective principle is affirmed in both ; but then the motion of the Hon. Mr. Sanborn went further and applied the elective principle to the Maritime Provinces, and was favorable to the retention of the life members, and it also extended the life principle to the Maritime Provinces, and contemplated the addition of ten life members to this Chamber from those pro vinces. My motion simply affirms the elec tive principle so far as Canada is concerned, and between the two I think there ia a material difference. Hon. Mr. ROSS— There is no doubt that the motion of the honorable member for 318 Wellington embraced aU that this contains, and a great deal more. So that if in the motion that was disposed of the other day, there was embraced what this motion con tains, the present motion ia out of order, containing as it does a principle which has already been pronounced upon by this House. The Hon. the SPEAKER— There may be some difficulty in deciding on a matter of this kind, because the two motions, although not exactly identical, are very nearly so in one particular. The argument that the motion of Hon. Mr. Sanborn contained more than is embraced in this motion does not apply. The question is, does this affirm what was contained in the motion already voted upon ? That in deciding on this particular matter, we have decided on other things connected with it, does not affect the position. Rules on questions of this kind have been made to prevent Parliament deciding one day con trary to another, and to avoid also surprises, by questions being introduced a second time in the absence of members who may have previously voted on them. Were this motion to carry, it would affirm a principle which waa negatived when the motion of the Hon. Mr. Sanborn was before the House. It is not necessary that the two mctiona ahould be exactly the aame ; it ia aufficient if they are subatantially alike. I will quote a few words on this point from May : — It ia a rule in both Houses not to permit any question or bill to be ofi'ered which is substan tially the same as one on whioh iheir judgment has already been pronounced during the same session. This is uece.ssarj to avoid different decisions being given, and to prevent surprises by u, question being resolved trst in the affirmative and next in the negative. Should we pasa this motion now before the House, we should be doing what May says the rule of Parliaraent has been framod to avoid, for it would be affirming- a principle on one day, and in another day the contrary. I ara bound to say that in my opioion the resolution is subatantially contained iu the reaolution already decided upon, and that therefore it ia out of order. (Hear, hoar.) Hon. Mr. AIKINS — I muat confess that I would like to have had the opinion of the House on the motion ; but I am quite willing to abide by the decision of the Speaker. (Hear, hear.) The Hon. the SPEAKER— That the de cision I havo given may be well understood — to remove all apprehension on the score of a motion once negatived not being supposed to be finally disposed of, I may say that we find this in the rules of the Imperial Parliament : " A question once carried or negatived can not be brought forward again." Hon. Mr. FLINT said — Honorable gen tlemen, I deeply regret that the amendment of my honorable friend could not have been placed before the House, in order to a more direct vote being elicited on the principle therein contained, that of the application of the elective principle to this House. It is true that the honorable member for Welling ton embodied the same principle in the resolution which he brought before the House, and which was negatived. I confess I hardly expected, when I saw this amend ment on the notice paper, that it would be allowed to be proceeded with. Still I was in hopes that the Houae would have borne with the honorable gentleman, and would have allowed hia motion to be placed on the Journals of the House. Having been sent here by a constituency which embraces about 75,000 aouls, upon the elective principle, I feel that I sbould but ill discharge my duty to that constituency, without having received from them their direct and positive instruc tions to the contrary, were I to stand up on tbe floor of this House and advocate the taking away from them of the privilege of the elective franchise which has been con ceded to them by Parliament. If this prin ciple had not been granted, the poaition would be altogether changed ; but having once granted to a people the right of saying whom they will have to repreaent them in tbis Chamber, they ought also to be asked, before we are called upon to vote, whether they desire to give back the privilege into the handa of the Government. I would not for a moment think of placing them in so false a position. I oannot, therefore, look with favor upon that portion of the resolu tions which goes to take away from the people the right to nominate and select membera to thia Honorable House. So much has been aaid on thia aubject that it would be hardly worth while for me to conaume the time of the Houae in going over the ground which ao many othera have gone over already. I have not heard, however, in all the apeechea which have been made in advocacy of this meaaure, anything to cause me to swerve for a moment from the viewa I have always en tertained after reading this portion of the resolutions. I may say that when I was 319 elected, it is true that Federation was before the country, but it was before the country in a very different shape from what it is at the present timo. After the Govern ment of the day was defeated last session, and after arrangements had been entered into, it was understood by these arrange ments that we were to have Federation of the two Canadas. That waa all that was placed before us. In issuing my short address, I stated I was in favor of Feder ation. I am so still — (hear) — but while in favor of Confederation of all the pro vinces, I desire it should be carried out in such a way that it will conduce to the best ioterests of all concerned. I wish that no advantage may be taken by any one of the provinces over the others. Wben I came before my constituents for election, as hon. gentlemen may be aware, I had no opposition — I was elected by acclamation. All I could say to the people on the measure was simply this, that I approved of the scherje marked out by the Government when the new ad ministration was formed, but I knew nothing as to what had subsequently taken place. I told them that I was in favor of change — that I was in favor of a Federation of the two provinces of Upper and Low.r Canada, in order that we might live together in peace, as I was satisfied, from what we had witnessed as transpiring for many years, that it was impoaaible to live longer together — that it waa better to aeparate, and in separating we would probably be better friends. I alao stated that the tims muat come when the Confederation of all the provinces would take place, and that if Confederation was fjrmed upon a just basis, it would no doubt be the means of a vast amount of good to our comraon country. (Hear, hear.) The firat knowledge I had of Confederation was, as a matter of course, when the delegatea met and paaaed the resolutions which are now before us with a alight alter ation or two of no moment. AVhen these resolutions were printed by the Government I received one from the Honorable the Pro vincial Secretary, marked " Private," and I alao at the aame time received a note from that honorable gentleman, stating that these resolutions were not then intended for the eye of the public. The consequence waa, I felt thatI could not read theae reaolutiona, and meet my constituenta and tell them that I knew nothing in reference to Confedera tion. Thua feeling my hands tied, 1 placed the resolutions in my desk, and left them there; and never did I examine them to ascer tain what honorable gentlemen had done until I took my seat on tho floor of the House. I could uot feel free to place myself in a position before my constituents, and on being asked from time to time what were the proapeots of Confederation and what -were its details, give a truthful reply with the restrictions placed upon me, were I to have read the resolutions ; and therefore I did not read the resolutions, so that I might honestly say I knew nothing about tbem. I feel, honorable gentlemen, that it would be impossible for me, under existing circum stances, to vote away tbat right which has been granted by the Constitution of our country to those who now iiave the privilege conferred upon them of exercising the elective franchise so far as regards this Chamber. I feel that I should do a great wrong and perpetrate a great injury to the electors who sent me here, were I to vote for that portion of the scheme wbich contem plates the taking away of their franchise altogether. I have no objection, as a mat ter of course, to the life merabers, if they so desire it, voting away their rights, or of placing their seats in the hands of the Go vernment to be dealt with as they please ; and so far as I am individually concerned, I would have no objection to sacrifice my scat in the House for tbe good of the country and of my constituents. They have sent me here, not because I was anxious to be placed in this poaition, however honorable it may be, but becauae I waa their choice. And I muat aay that it waa one of the proudest and happiest days of my life when I found, after having battled politically for so many years on the side of reform, that I could go into a constituency embracing 75,000 souls, of all descriptions and shades of politics, and that I had so far given satisfaction that not a man was to be found who raised his voice against my re-election. (Hear, hear.) I have gained, I may say, all that I desire in the way of earthly honor ; but I feel, like many other honorable gentleraen, that in being placed in this high and honorable position, it is my duty to act faithfully to wards those who sent me here ; and I feel I should do wrong if, on an occasion like thia, I ahould give my vote for placing tbat portion of Upper Canada which I am aent to repre aent in a worae position than they occupied before. Having made these few remarks 320 with reference to the elective principle, I desire now to speak about one or two other things in connection with these resolutions. And one thing in particular, I find, has not been spoken of by any member on the floor of this House. I refer now to the sixth clause, with reference to education. Now, lion, gentlemen, it strikes me it was decidedly wrong on the part of the delegates to place anything in reference to the education of the people of Upper and Lower Canada in this scheme. I will give my reasons for it, and I think those reasons are good. I think it should be left fully and entirely to the people of Upper and Lower Canada to decide what is best with reference to this matter. We see already that both in Upper and Lower Canada both parties are actively engaged endeavoring to press upon the atten tion of both Houses of Parliament the neces sity of granting them greater privileges than they already enjoy. They seera to be deter mined to have nothing less for their Catholic education than a full staff of officers, together with model and normal schools, and all the paraphernalia whioh attach to the present common school system. That which in Upper Canada was regarded as a finality in school matters is now scouted at, and the advo cates of separate schools go so far as to insist upon having a college ; and the object is no doubt to place themselves iu a position to be wholly independent of the proposed local government of Upper Canada. So far as I am individually concerned in reference to schools, I would far rather that the school system was worked out in both provinces on the principle of the common schools. I see no reason why in any neighborhood a portion of the children should be sent to one de scription of school, and a portion of the children sent to another description of school. I believe it is wrong in principle, and that the children of our common country should grow up together and be educated together. In our public schools there should be nothing taught which would have the effect of preventing any person from sending their children to them. These are my views in reference to schools. I believe that the effect of giving exclusive rights and privi leges to certain parties has had a tendency to weaken the good feeling which should subaiat between all classes of the community, and which ia now seen in the demand from both aections for different systema of educa tion. (Hear, hear.) The next thing to which I deaire to call the attention of the Houae is that of the Intercolonial Railway. I am opposed in toto to that great road. I am opposed to it for the beat of all reasons. In the flrst place, I am not satisfied with it, because I do not know what it is going to cost. There is nothing in these resolutions to indicate what is to be the expense ; nor have I been able to discover from what has taken place on the floor of the House, any data on the subject. Consequently, I do not feel that it would be my duty to vote for a measure whioh is going to entail upon Upper Canada a large amount of debt, with out first knowinf^ what that debt is to be. So far from this being regarded as a com mercial undertaking, I cannot for the life of me see how it is possible that it can be worked commercially. The hon. member from Montreal (Hon. Mr. Ferrier), who spoke in his place the other evening, never touched upon this subject. All he told us in reference to this great scheme was simply this : that there were 100 odd oars lying at Montreal laden with produce, and that they could not go forward because on the other side of the lines they had so much to do that they could not send the cars through. But this was no argument at all in favor of the Intercolonial Railway. But supposing the road were built, do hon. gentlemeo believe for a moment that it would pay running expenses ? There is no doubt in my mind that to keep it open a subsidy would be required, like that whioh is paid to the ocean steamers. It was stated the other day by the hon. member from Montreal that two cents per ton per mile was a very small rate for railway carriage. But taking it at that figure, what do we find ? From Toronto to the seaboard, over the Intercolonial Railway, the distance may be estimated at 939 miles, and to send a barrel of flour that distance by railway, at a cost of two cents per mile per ton, the charges on the flour would be not less than $2.08. But supposing one-half this tariff were charged — one cent per ton per mile — and we are told that at such a rate the road would be run at a loss, the cost would be $1.04; and by the time tho barrel of flour was laid down in Liverpool, there would be charges on it for carriage of eight or ten cents per each bushel of wheat over what was formerly paid. These figures are based on the authority of hon. gentlemen opposite. " Oh ! but," say they, " the farmer gets the benefit of his money during the winter." I do not see that this is any argument at all in a commercial point of 321 view. We have the advantage of getting the money in the winter, it is true, but how do we get it ? By losing a large umount. For my part, I do not believe in getting only 3s. 9d. for a dollar's worth of produce. (Hear, hear) And I am satisfied tbat wben oor farmers get to understand the question, they never will consent tobe taxed for the construction of any such road. Taking the cost of transportation at two cents per ton per mile, and the distance from Halifax to Belleville at 831 miles, we find it would cost $ 1 6 . 62 to transport a ton of goods between the t-,vo places. And at such figurea, dues any honorable gentleman who has the slightest knowledge of commercial transac tiona believe for a moment that merchandiae could be aent over the road at any auch ratea ? Supposing you reduce the rate one cent, it would still cost $8.-31, which would pre clude the poaaibility of carrying freight over the road; ao that, in a commercial point of view, the road would be perfectly uaeleaa. It is true that under our preaent system of banking, our bankers endeavor to enforce on tbe purchasers of produce the necessity of immediate ahipmenta and immediate aalea, and with that view cause them to draw for their accommodation at short dates; but it is also true that by such a practice the far mer is in every instance the loser. The reason o! this custom is that the banks want quicker returns. But I contend that the banka ahould be prepared to advance money at such dates aa will enable the producer to so aell hia produce aa to get from it a remu nerative return for hia labor. But thia it not done. It seema tbat the tendency of everything ia to force freight down the rail ways during tbe winter aeaaon, and to thia end noney ia advanced at abort dates, the farmer being the chief loser by the tranaac- tion. Then the Intercolonial Railway is advocated as a military necessity. It is .said that it is e-sential lor the defence of the country, to enable the transportation of troopa and military atorea. I think, hon. gcntltmen, we have only to look acroaa the linea and aee what haa taken place during the war in the State of Virginia and in other statea, to coovioce ua at once that for the purpoae of moving troopa and heavy auppliea, auch as artillery and ammunition, theae roads are of very little use. You will find that they have been cut in almost every direction, and the facilities thjy were auppoaed to possess for transportation have been proved to be well nigh worthless for any practical 42 purpose, — and that, too, in a country where tbey are able in a short time to rebuild any portions of the roads which may be dtstroyed. But how would it be on the Intercolonial Railway ? That road is intended to run through a country near the boundary of the State of Maine, over which troops could be distributed at given points so as, in case of necessity, to break up the Intercolonial Rail way in every direction and to prevent the transportation of troops and munitions of war during tho winter. An HON. MEMBER— They would be unable to reach it so as to cut it. Hon.Mr. FLINT — 1 hat is a very curious idea : " They cannot reach it !" I lo ik upon the Americans as a class of persons who can cut their way wherever they wish to go. Nothing would be eaaier than for them to cut the Intercolonial Railway. But if it were really the caae that the country to be traversed by the Intercolonial Railway is of such a nature that no one could get through to it, the sooner we cease saying anything further about it the better. (Hear.) For if the country is in such a state that it is impossible for men to travel through it, I see no beneflt in having such a railway. (Hear, hear.) These are my views in reference to tbe railway. In the first place I do not feel inclined to pay the large sum of mone^'- it is going to cost, without knowing how much will be required. There is no knowing how much it will coat Upper Canada for her pro portion — whether it ia to be $12,000,000, $15,000,000, or $20,000,000, But taking into conaideration the amount of debt we will bave to aasume, together with our appor tionment of the $62,500,000 aaaigned to Upper and Lower Canada, aa alao that por tion yet unprovided for by the reaolutiona; I think that by the time the Intercolo nial Railway is built, Upper Canada will be saddled with ac least $50,000,000 as her share of debt. I do not see how it is pos- .sible for the people to bear up under such a weight ; nor do I believe that, if they under stood this matter as they ougbt to underatand it, they would give their consent to ua to vote /or it. It may be thought, perhaps, that I ain not in favor of Confederation. Butsuch is not the case, I would much desiie the Federation of all the provinces ; but while I would deaire the Federation ot all the pro vincea, I do deaire that that Federation should be based on true and proper princi ples — that every portion of these provinces of Her Majesty's dominion should share and 322 share alike. I do not believe in one portion of the provinces being placed in a position of inferiority to the others. I believe Upper Canada should have its just rights — I be lieve Lower Canada should have its just rights— and I believe that the other provin ces should have their just rights. We should come together not with a feeling of distrust, but with a feeling of mutual good will, leady to take each other by tbe hand and to pres.s forward to what I would hope might prove an honorable destiny. (Hear, hear.) I am well satisfied that the more this question is discussed — notwithstanding the remarka of some hon. gentlemen to the contrary — the more the question ia diacussed and ventilat ed,, the greater wUl be the diaaatisfaction of the people witb it. I have received but one letter from my conatituents on the point, and the simple reference of that writer ia this : " Do not you vote for the Intercolonial Rail way." He says, " I ahould like Federation ; but do not vote for the Intercolonial Rail way." But, hon. gentlemen, whether I had received auch an admonition or not, I could nbt aee my way clear to vote for the reaolu tiona aa they now stand. I have paid all pOaaible attention to the apeechea which have been delivered in thia cbai! ber. I have list ened with every degree of re?peotful attention to the hon. and gallant Knight who leads the Government, and also to his hon. colleague the Commissioner of Crown Lands, and I should be happy if it were in my power to go with them in the vote which is about to be cast ; but I do not see how that is possible, ifl am at the aame time todiacharge my duty to my constituents, to myself, and to my coun try. I can never consent to vote away the rights which belong to the people, without first asking the people for their consent. If the time ia given them necesaary to make up their minda on tbia subject, and they then say to thia House : " We are willing to try tbis scheme — we are willing to take it with all its defects, in tbe hope that it will be found to work well," I will give my vote for it as it now stands. But, in tbe absence of this opportunity being afforded, I must say that if I am in the House when the vote is called on this measure, I ahall have to record my name againat it, and in ao doing I shall be acting conscientiously. I shall do so be cause I think it a duty incun.bent on me, however painful it may be for me to vote contrary to the viewa of the Government in this respect, and contrary to a large majority of this House. And while I would concede to every hon. gentleman who may differ from me the same freedom of judgment that I claim for myself — while I would look with ail charity on the course thought proper to be taken by my fellow members, I feel per suaded that they will not begrudge rae the right of discharging my duty in accordance with the dictates of my conscience, and what I believe to be for the good of my consti tuents. And if my conatituents do not agree with mc jn wbat I am about to do, they have only to say, " Mr. Flint, your conduct does not accord with our views ; we deaire that you ahould retire from public life;" and I shall be most happy to conform to their wishes. (Hear, hear.) Hon. Mr. DE BEAUJEU said— Honor able gentlemen, I think it an act of patriotism to support the resolutions submitted to us, having for their object the Confederation of several provinces, so aa to bring them into a group, with the -view of forming a nationality. Thia project will not surprise any one, when he recollects that thia immense territory ia occupied by the deacendanta of the two firat powera of the world, and that the greateat portion of them are of Norman and Breton blood. They will also remember that the Normans were the moat adventuroua pioneera, fit for all hazardoua colonizationa, and daring navigatora. After having established their dominion over the British Islands, and over a part of France, Naples, Sicily, even in Jerusalem, Antioch, and near Constantinople, they crossed the ocean and established them selves on the Canary Islands, and afterwards came close on the borders of the Saint Law rence and the Mississippi — a voyage that their ancestors had commenced in the environs of Novgorod, and where a nucleus of their race is yet to be found. The French Cana dian countrymen of this Honorable House ought more than othera to be proud of the scheme, and it ought to bring to their memory that France had once this object in view, but even on a larger scale (having then a territory of 1,800 leagues), and of making on thia con tinent a second to herself by calling it La Nouvelle France. She waa then seconded in this great undertaking by her best military and civil administrators. Among the fore most was the Count de Frontenac, and the Marquis of Denonville, and La GalissoN- NifcRE, and also the celebrated Intendant Talon. The French Government was then laboring under the same difficulty of seeking for an open sea-port in winter, so as to avoid being shut up by the ice during five months of the year, having their powerful neighbors, as we have now, to contend with. The Che valier d'Iber-ville, one of the brave sons of Montreal, the equal, as it is admitted by the best navy historians, of the celebrated Jean Bart, after having made, in 1695, two glori ous expeditions to the Hudson Bay, Newfound land, and to some of the other present Mari time Provinces, wrote a Memoire, in 1701, on the situation of Boston and New York and other coasts of the then British colonies, pointing out the necessity of possessing a sea port during winter. Well, honorable gentle men, this now may be effected without shed ding of blood or money, only by securing the Confederation as agreed at the Convention by the most distinguished parties contractantes of these British Provinces, in extending the present railroad from Riviere du Loup to the Maritime Provinces, so as to connect in winter the most remote parts of Westem Canada to the sea. The advantages to be derived from the annexation of these Maritime Provinces have been most ably developed at the begin ning of this debate by the brilliant speech and sound logic of the gallant Premier, and also by other able speeches in support of those resolutions. 1 will, nevertheless, add that the Province of Canada will also derive the im mense advantage of beginning the nucleus of our future miUtjry being, particularly if you get the great assistance of the Imperial (5ov- emmont that we are entitled to. Let us all recoUect that France commenced her Canadian being by sending divers companies of troops by rotation to the present Maritime Provinces, and also to Louisiana. Thoae companiea were commanded by officera who held the rank of capitaines des detachements de la marine, equal in rank to a lieutenant-colonel in the army. Thoae companiea were in the habit of being trained for navy purposea. I entertain no doubt that the frequent intercourse with those Maritime Provinces, coupled with the navy ship school that the Imperial Government, as I understand, has the intention of establishing at Quebec, similar to those in England and France,will promote this object ; and especially if England open the door of her academies of Woolwich and Sandhurst to our youths, as France was in the habit of doing when pos sessed of these colonies — in admitting, as cadets de marine, at Brest and Rochefort, the sons of those colonists who, as military and oivUian administrators; had deserved such a reward — and, by so doing, they formed a good colonial navy, and it was from it sprang up those able and brave officers — the glory of the past history of the French Canadians ; and the honor that they had so acquired re flected also over Old France. Amongst the great number whose memory ought not to be forgotten, not only by the people of this Pro vince, but also by the Maritime Provinces, at the birth and development of a new nation, and to the defence of which those men have contributed by their intelligence and courage, I will name, amongst others, Bonaventure, SfiviGNY, Chateauguay, D'Alligny, Til ly, Granville, Soulanges, Vaudreuil, Beauharnois, Longueuil, Repentigny, BoiSHiiBERT, St. Ours, &o., &c. ; and many of those distinguished na-vy officers became govemors not only in the French colonies of America and India, but commanded also sea ports in France. Benoit, Chaussegros de LfiRY, the two Vaudreuils, and Pierre Bedout rose to the rank of Rear Admiral, and one of them, Rouer de la Cordon- NiiiiRE, was even complimented by Fox in the English Parliament, for his generous and gal lant conduct towards his enemies. Now, hon orable gentlemen, besides the establiahment of the colonial navy, we should also promote the military organization and martial spirit, the natural accompaniment and the best safe guard of freedom, by assuming part of the military defences of this colony, proportioned to our population and revenues, of course with the effective assistance of the Imperial Government. And I hope that England will call out, to exercise the highest functions of statesmanahip, auch of her aubjecta in thoae coloniea aa will render themaelvea fit to fill auch situations in future. Why should she not even employ them in the diplomatic ser vice, or as governors of her other colonies, as France did formerly, in granting thoae favors for eminent services? And in spite of the intrigues of those near the soleil levant at Ver sailles, the daring exploits of those brave col onists, in that glorious struggle from 1698 to 1759, forced the French monarch to do them ample justice, and by so doing the most of tbe military commands and governorships of the French colonies fell into the hands of Canadian bom subjects. I have said so much to show that the policy of England ought to have been directed to promote, in these colonies, the appointments in the civil as well as in the military career to her colonial subjects, as well as those living in the British Isles. — ^^Hear, hear.) Referring again to the Mari time Provinces, I will say to my French Can adian countrymen that they have too many glorious pages in the past history of America, 324 and particularly in relation to these provinces, not to feel a sympathy towards them, as there still exist a large number of the old Acadiana who will feel proud to renew old acquaint ance, and to live with them aa brothers, happy under the protection of the English Government. Let me call to their memory some of the places which were the theatre of tho exploits of the brave officers I have al ready mentioned, such as Port Royal, or Louisbourg, now Annapolis ; Chebucto, now Halifax ; Port Lajoie, now Charlottetown ; L'Isle Royale, now Cape Breton ; Isle St. Jean, now Prince Edward Island, &c., &c. I hope, also, that the construction of a good route to Riviere Rouge, the Rocky Moun tains and British Columbia, wUl bring those placea to an easy accesa for commerce, trading and agriculture, to our growing population, and wiU prevent them emigrating to tho United States, aa they will find glorioua souvenirs in the former placea, whore their Canadian brothera have already formed flouriahirg agri cultural settlementa, and opened up valuable mines. I truat that my French Canadian countrymen in this House will see the advan tage of adopting the resolutions now hud be fore them, tl dating as they should do to the good disposition of'the Home Government, as this ne-w Constitution is well calculated to develope the resources of this fine and imraense country. And the best proof that we are taking the right ateps to secure our happinesa, is found araongat other aiticlea hostile to Brit ish intereata, in an -article of the Gourrier des Etats-Vnis, when the queation of Confedera tion waa agitated in 1853, and which runa aa follows : — Aotwithstauding all that may be said, written or spouted about English tyranny and rapacity, we must acknowledge that Great Britam has al Ways known how to keep up with the spirit of the age, and to deal out privileges to her colon ies by judicious instalments. Should this great project be adopted, our im portance would rise on the continent of Europe, and we would be on the same footino- at least as our American neighbors, belongino- to a large and important Confederation, and our credit will rise in conaequence. The Lower Canadiana wUl recollect that in 1840, after the temporary suspension of the Act of 1791, England granted us a new Constitution. They wiU recollect also the anguiah, the pangs felt by them at that period ; but notwithstand ing that we had no voice then in the measure as we have now, still the rights and advan tages granted us by the capitulation of Que bec and Montreal and the treaty of Paris in 1763, have not been abrogated, and I am of opinion that by adopting those resolutions, our future rights are as safe as they were for merly. (Hear, hear.) Before I close I wiU answer the remarks made by the honorable meraber for Lanaudi6re division, in a speech a few days ago, respecting the Monroe doctrine, alleging that we ought not to legislate upon thia delicate aubject, or worda to that effect. I will quote two lettera lately diacovered and published by Monsieur Pierre Mergoz, Guardian of Archives of the Ministry of the Foreign Affairs in France, and his remarks on these two great honored navigators who dia covered the Misaiaaippi and other parta of America, and which remarka are aa fo'low : — We cannot shut our eyes to the affinity of the interests of the present times and those of former days, and which recommend the memory of La- Salle and d'Iberville. In 1699 d'Ibeevillb wrote on the aubject of Louisiana: ''If France does not take possession of this part of Amer ca, which is the finest, to have a colony strong enough to resist those that England possesses in the east from Pescodoue to the Caroline, these colonies, which are becoming very extensive, will increase to such an extent that in less than a cen tury they will be strong enough to seize upon the whole continent of America, and to expel all other nations " D'Iberville wrote again in Noveinber, 1702 : " What may be said against the establishment that the king has made at Mo bile ? It IS the only one that could sustain Ame rica against the undertakings of the English on this continent. In a few years they will be able to forward in fifteen daya, by means of their large navy, more than 20,0UO or 30,000 men upon such of the French islands as they wo-ald be in clined to attack, the distance not being, at the utmost, more than 500 to 600 leagues, the wind being generally favorable to carry them on those shores, and by land they may reach Mexico." "These views (says llr. Mergoz), together with D Ibekvii.le's remarks, will account for t' e na tural uneasiness felt by the European powers at what is uow taking place in South America." What I have just quoted is, I believe, suffi cient to convince the honorable member for tbe Lanaudiere Division that the European Powera were not disposed, even at those remote times, to favor the doctrine now caUed the Monroe ; the British colonists of those times being now replaced by our republican neighbors. Having said so much, I will con clude by stating that I shall vote for those reao lutiona aa they are laid before us. (Cheera.) Hon. Mr. HAMILTON (Inkerman)— Honorable gentlemen, so much haa been aaid during the courae of the preaent debate with reference to the elected members of this House, 325 and the righta of the electors who sent us here, that I desire to make a very few remarks to explain why I, representing a Lower Canadian division, a majority of whom will be amongst the minority of the Lower Canada of the future, have decided that it is my duty to vote for the resolutions of the Quebec Conference as they have been laid before us by the Government, and consequently against all the amendmenta. I am free to confeaa, honorable gentlemen, that there are among the reaolu tions aorae that I would have gladly seen, aa I conceive, amended; but considering, from the nature of the thing itaelf, and therefore fully concurring iu what many of ua heard from an eminent ana distinguished statesman in another place, that the whole scheme of Confederation partook of the nature of a treaty, into which, as a matter of courae, the apirit of comproiLiae must largely enter ; and the Government hav ing, aa I also consider they were bound to do, informed ua we muat accept the acheme as a whole, or reject it as a whole, I conceived it was my duty not to be a bar in the way, however humble, of the passage of the reaolu tiona, and I came to thia conclusion the more willingly becauae I have been for a long time an advocate fbr a union of tbe provinoes, and I have been so because it ia indisputable that a much greater share of our self-defence must reat upon ourselves than heretofore ; and though at the best our meana of defence may not be aa great aa we could wiah, yet it muat be manifest they must be greater by being consolidated under one head. Some hon. gen tlemen, especially my neighbor from St. Clair, have ridiculed the idea of Confederation in creasing our powers of defence, inasmuch as under the best of circumstances it must take a long time to perfect our arrangements ; but I would ask hon. gentlemen to consider wbat will be the effect in England, as to our defences, if we reject or even postpone this scheme of Confederation, coming as it would on the heels of a rejected Militia Bill. During the discussion, we have had, if the term is par liamentary and may be uscd,many fancy finance statements. Now, without disputing the cor rectness of any of them, I would ask the honorable gentlemen who have made them, have they made any calculation as to the costs we would be at after we had been gobbled up by our neighbors south of 45°, or, to use the words of the honorable and gallant Knight the Premier, after we had slid down the inclined plane, and become merged in the neighboring republic ? I for one would say that such a position was altogether too contemptible to occupy. With reference to the change doing away with our elective Legislative Council, of which we have heard so much, I for one can say that I conaider the delegates came to tho only correct concluaion, and thia ia no new conclusion, and involves no change of opinion on my part, for I can appeal to an honorable member of this House as to whether, within half an hour of taking my seat in it, I did not express tbe opinion tbat though it was not right to speak ill of the bridge over which one had croaaed safely, yet that I was opposed to the elective syatem as applied to this House. I alao disaent from tbe sentiments I have heard expressed by many honorable members of this House as to our position here, for I never understood that I came here as the mere delegate of the men of Inkerman, to vote just aa the moat active village politioiana happened to pull the wires for me. No, gentlemen, I came here, aa I thought, aa the repreaentative of my diviaion, to do my beat according to my humble ability in legialating for the benefit of the whole country, and under no other circumatancea would I have accepted the poaition. I ahaU not occupy your time, honorable gentlemen, in saying that whioh has been better said by others ; but thanking you for tbe few momenta' hearing you have so kindly given me, conclude by reducing my explanations as followa : I vote for Confeder ation because I consider it essential to the maintenance of British connection, and to preserve that, I for one am prepared to make many sacrifices. (Hear, hear.) Hon. Mr. BLAIiE— I feel it to be my duty, honorable gentlemen, to make a few remarks upon the general question of Federa^ tion before tbe vote is taken. A great deal has been aaid about the manner in which the acheme has originated. It haa been said that the honorable gentlemen composing the Con ference were self-elected. Now I hold that it is most unfair to charge honorable gentle men who have, as members of a government, entered into this matter at the request of His Excellency the Governor-General, with a sin cere desire to do the best that could be done fbr the interests of Canada, with being too precipitate, especially when the subject was surrounded with so much difficulty. Although I have been an advocate of a union of the provinces for very many years, yet I am fully prepared to admit that there are some matters of detail in those resolutions that are very distasteful to me. I refer particularly to the abandonment of the elective principle in the constitution of this branch of the Legislature. 826 I was always in favor of the elective principle as applied to the Legislative Council, and a very largo proportion of my constituency is also in favor of it. I am opposed to the build ing of the Intercolonial Railway, on account of the immense expenditure which it wiU entail upon tbe country, not only now, but for all time to come. I think that that expenditure will be so great that it will fall very heavily on our finances, which are now so very poorly able to bear the burden, and that the road will be of very little use to the country. Much has been said about this scheme not being understood by the people. With regard to that, I can only speak of my own locality. Before coming here, I went through my own constituency, and conversed with a great many leading men of all political parties, and all urged me to go for Confedera tion, without a single exception. (Hear, hear.) I pointed out the objections which I had to the scbeme. I told them that I dis approved of tbe elective principle being ignor ed — of the building of the Intercolonial Railway — and of the increased expense of maintaining two sets of government. I pointed out all these and other objections, but not withstanding, they said that it would be far better to take Federation, even as proposed by the resolutions, than to remain as we are. They said : " The government of the country has come to a dead-lock; wehaveseen onestrong party pitted against another atrong party ; we have aeen tno or three governments formed that were unable to pass a single iraportant measure, and some change is therefore abso lutely neceaaary." The queation then arises. What are we to do ? Now, I would ask the opponenta of thia scheme, if they have any other plan to propose that will relieve the country of the difficulties under which it has been laboring ? (Hear, hear.) On the other hand, we have been told by high authority that we were on the brink of ruin. We were told by the honorable and gallant Knight at the head of the Government, that we were on an " inclined plane," on which we were fast sliding into the republic of the United States of America. I think it is therefore my duty to vote for the resolutions as they stand, and to vote for no amendments of any kind. (Hear, hear.) We are told that if we adopt any amendments to the resolutions, the whole scheme must faU to the ground. Are we to go back to the position we formerly occupied, or will it not be better to accept these resolu tions, on which a new Constitution may be formed ? If it is not formed to suit us, we can alter it hereafter. It is not, I apprehend, to be like the laws of the Medes and Persians, totally unalterable. Tbe Constitutions of Great Britain, of the United States, and of the different civilized nations now in existence have been altered, and why are we to expect that these resolutions are a finality ? Gentle men, the Constitution of the Confederation can be altered in future as easily as our present Constitution has been altered. I hope this scheme will go into effect at an early period, and I trust it wUl be productive of a vast amount of good to our country. (Hear, hear.) Honorable gentlemen say it is a revolution. It may be a revolution, but certainly it is not so violent a one as was proposed in 1837 and 1838. (Hear, hear.) 'There has been a great deal of hea-vy artillery brought into play since this debate began, but I hope that the revolution will be carried out without the shedding of blood. (Hear, hear and laughter.) I am prepared to give my vote for tbe scheme. (Cheers.) Hon. Mr. READ next addressed the House. He said — Honorable gentlemen, I have voted for delay in the passage of these resolutions, believing that to be my duty ; and if I have been wrong in doing so, it haa been through w.int of judgment. I have had no other intention in ao doing than to promote the beat interesta of the country. A--, how ever, I observe that a large majority of this Houae entertaina a different opinion, I shaU no longer atterapt to mar the scbeme, but shall give it my support when the time for voting upon it arrives. (Hear, hear, and cheers.) I never intended to mar it, but I wished to be sure that the country was satis fied with it, and would appreciate it when they got it. (Hear.) I think human nature is the same now as it always was and always will be. As the hon. Premier and the hon. Commissioner of Crown Lands have used some comparisons with reference to the pro posed union, I have also a comparison to make. They said that a union could not be effected without some sacrifices — a little giving and taking all round. I think so too, but I think there is a different way in which this proposed union must be viewed. I compare Canada to a young man who has had guar dians appointed to take care of his estate; but ha-ving arrived at that age that his guar dians think it is time he should be married, they arrange a matrimonial aUiance for him. He is all the time looking on, and expecting to be asked how the arrangement suits him. But in this case it appears he is not to be 327 asked at all. (Hear, hear.) When they have all things in readiness, he says to himself: " You may have power to marry me, but you cannot make me live happUy." Now, had he heen consulted, he would probably have made the same choice and have been fully satisfied with the alliance. As human nature is always the same, I have thought these were sufficiently strong reasons for wishing to have some delay, in order that the people, after the matter was fully before them, might cordially enter into the proposed union. I am favorably impressed with a great many of the resolutions compos ing this measure. I cannot, however, agree with my hon. friend from Toronto (Hon. Mr. Ross), that Upper Canada would build the Intercolonial Railway herself rather than be without it. Upper Canada does not produce anything that can be profitably taken over tl e road. There is no alternative, however, but to build it, if Confederation is to be carried out. In 1862, we had a good bargain thrown open to us, but as we refused to accept it at the time, we cannot now get it without paying a higher price. Along with the ma trimonial alliance into which we are about to enter, there will be fresh responsibilities, and I really do not think the country is quite prepared for them. (Hear, hear, and laugh ter.) It seems we are pretty certain to form_ the alliance, and it is equally certain that those Uttle responsibUities wiU immediately spring up. (Laughter.) I think, however, that we must call them great responsibilities, and I repeat, much greater than we are pre pared for. I would make a great sacrifice for the defence of the country, but if England tells us we must do more than the country is able to do, I do not think we wUl be wUling to submit to it. We are prepared to do all we can, but I am not prepared to go to such an enormous expense as to involve our country in such debt as wiU render it an undesirable place to live in. With Confederation we will have to go to great expense, not only for our defences and our miUtia, but also for a navy ; because I believe that, as soon as the Ameri cans put un increased number of gun-boats on the lakes, we will have to put on an equal number, and it is very doubtful to me if we can afford it. (Hear, hear.) Where is the money to come from ? Hon. Mr. CURRIE— Ye^-where is the money to come from ? Hon. Mr. READ— We are now very heavily taxed, and have a heavy biU to pay for interest on our large debt. I would like tb see the Governmeiit adopt some niethod "by which this interest should not go out of the country. I do not like to .see so much bor rowed from abroad. Interest is a thing that accumulates ' very rapidly, and it has to be paid regularly. If some system could be de vised by which this borrowing from abroad could be stopped,the Federation scheme would suit me much better, especially when we con sider that the taxes of the people of this country, per head, have been running up at an alarming rate — from one dollar to three — since the union, in 1841. It seeins that the Confederation is to increase our taxes ; that fact is generally admitted, independent ofthe expense of building the Intercolonial Railway. I do not see where all the money is to come from, but I dare say the Finance Minister will find out some means of raising it by in creased taxation. When the final vote comes on, I shall be prepared to support the motion rather than have it rejected altogether, and shall press my opposition no further. (Hear, hear.) Hon. Mr. REESOR— Honorable gentle- men, I rise to move — That the following worda he added to the main motion : " Provided always, that His Excel lency the Governor General be prayed to with hold the transmission of the said Address until the said resolutions shall have been approved of by the electors of this province, qualified to vote under th Act 22 Vic, cap. 6, to be signified by a direct vote on the said resolution, to be taken in the various rrunicipalities throughout Upper and Lower Canada." Hon. Mr. DICKSON— I am desirous of caUing to the notice of the House the fact that this amendment appears on the face of it to embody the same principle as the amend ment proposed by the honorable member op posite (Hon. Mr. Currie), and seconded by myself, and wbich, after a long and somewhat tedious discussion, was decided in the negative. I would like to know, therefore, whether the amendraent is in order. I do not oppose it, I Ut if it is not in order, tirae wiU be Saved by disposing of it at once, and I rise to obtain tbe Speaker's decision upon the point. Hon. Mr. ROSS— The objection of the honorable member is, I think, conclusive with regard to the amendment. It appears to be the same in principle as that moved by the honorable member for Niagara, and seems to me to be out of order. Hon. Mr. BUREAU— I think the motion ia in order. It declares tbat before the scheme is finally adopted, it sball be referred to the people, for them to vote yea or nay upon it, 328 No such amendment has before been offered in this House. The Hon. the SPEAKER— The motion proposed in amendment to the main motion by Hon. Mr. Currie was in the following words : — " That in a matter of such great im portance as the proposed Confederation of this and certain other British Colonies, this House is unwilling to assume the responsibility of assenting to a measure involving so many im portant considerations, without a further man ifestation of the public will than has yet been declared." Now, the present motion is — " That His Excellency the Governor General be prayed to withhold the transmission of the said Address until the said resolutions shall have been approved of by the electors of this province, qualified to vote under the Act 22 vie, cap. 6, to be aignified by a direct vote on the said resolution, to be taken in the various municipalities throughout Upper and Lower Canada." Although there may be eome similarity, still it is not substantiaUy the same motion. (Hear, hear.) The " further manifestation of the public will " may be quite a different thing from the manifestation of that will by a direct vote, as provided for by this amendment. I believe, therefore, that the motion is in order ; and, as in a caae of thia kind it is my opinion that a liberal in terpretation of the rules and practice of tbe Houae should be made, I cannot declare that the araendment is included in the motion de cided by the Houae yeaterday. (Hear, hear.) Hon. Mr. REESOR— It wiU have been obaerved that the courae of thia debate haa taken a most extraordinary turn. At firat, honorable members addreaaed tbe Houae in favor of the resolutions— members of the Government more especially, and then some honorable gentlemen supporting them ; but latterly we^have heard several honorable gen tlemen expressing their views very strongly and emphatically against many of the resolutions embraced in the scheme of Confederation, but while expressing theraaelves so strongly, tbey seemed to feel it to be their duty to support it as a whole. (Hear, heir.) Now, it strikes me, and I trust it will strike some other hon orable membera, also, that we have been elected to thia Legislature with a view to perfect as far as possible every scheme or pro position that may properly corae before it. If we have views on a particular measure which would lead us to propose amendments for the purpose of making it different in shape or scope from what it is when first introduced, I maintain that it is our duty to express our views in that direction — not taking the mea aure without looking fairly and impartially into it, or accepting it in the belief that we have no right to diapute or alter any portion of it. For my part, I look upon the scheme now before the House as upon the whole very different from what we had a right to expect from the members of the present Governm^jnt. They have been strongly supported in both Houses of Parliament and in tbe country, and I do not desire to see any difficulty thrown in their way, or anything done calculated to lessen their support in the Legislature ; but at the same time I do say that, with the sup port and confidence they have received, they ought to have brought forward a better scheme than that which they have presented to the House and country. Why, take the question of the Intercolonial Railroad involved in these resolutions, and what do we find ? Jlore than two years ago the governraents of the provin ces of New Brunswick and Nova Scotia made a proposition to the Canadian Government to build this road and pay seven-twelfths of the cost, Canada to pay the remaining flve- twelfths. Well, what arrangement have we now — what has time brought about — what advantages have these two years gained for us? This, that the Government of Canada come down to the Legislature with a scheme .according to which Canada will have to pay towards the construction of this road nine- twelfths of the entire amount, and the other provinces the balance — thus involving addi tional expense on the part of Canada to the amount of several millions of dollars — certainly not les» than six millions to build the Inter colonial Railway alone — more than was de manded of us two years ago — and a total additional expendituie that will add to the annual taxation of Canada more than a mil lion and a half of dollars for all time to come. This heavy expenditure over the proposition made two years ago has, therefore, been need lessly undertaken. It is admitted, even by the promoters of this scheme, that the east ern provinces will benefit far more largely than Canada by the construction of the Inter colonial tvailway. It is admitted by the best commercial men who have spoken upon tha subject, that aa a commercial undertaking it wiUnotpay. Itis admitted that it wUI be of little or no value whatever as a defensive work. This being the case, wby then rush into this large expenditure with such precipi tancy ; why not, at least, postpone its passage in order to get a measure of a more perfect character, and one more in harmony with the 329 wishes of the people chiefly interested ? Hon orable gentlemen who betray such anxiety to press this scheme at once should remember that we are not voting away our own but the people's money, and that this should not be done to the extent that is now proposed, without consulting their wishes in the matter. This the law requires before a municipal council can make any special grant of money. In such cases a vote of the people has to be taken, which is conclusive as to whether the proposed expenditure shall be incurred or not ; and yet we are here passing a measure of vast ly greater importance to them, a measure in volving a revolution in our political affairs — a measure involving an immense outlay of money without asking whether the people are favorable to it or not. (Hear, hear.) I maintain, honor able gentlemen, that before it is finaUy passed upon, the whole question should be submit ted to the people, and that the law which re quires a reference to them in minor matters, should be extended in a matter which so near ly concerns their future condition and pros perity. The people of the eastern provinces have very little to complain of in the plan of Confederation proposed. The fact is, they will be largely the gainers by it, if it is carried out. In Nova Scotia and New Bruns wick, the members of the govemments of those provinces, and other public men, see the great advantage they have gained over Cana da, and are not slow to set them before the people. They are naturally anxious that the scheme shall be carried as speedily as pos sible, and are making every effort in this di rection, for under it unprofitable local works in those provinces are assumed and paid for by the General Government; such, for in stance, as the railways of New Brunswick, which, before five years go round, will, I have no doubt, be run at very considerable cost be yond the retums they will yield to the Gene ral Govemment. The Hon. Mr. Tilley, in a speech to the electors of St. John, sets forth the advantages to be gained by New Bruns wick by the union, as follows : — New Brunawick is allowed to enter the Confed eration with a debt of seven millions, and Nova tcotia with a debt of eight millions. Now, what waa the nature of the arrangement by which we came in ? It waa found that the debt of Canada waa not much larger per head than that of New Brunswick. We came in on better terms than that province. Mr. Tilley then proceeds to show how New Brunswick gained a clear advantage of $610,- 000 a year for aU time to come on the Interco- 43 lonial Railway alone. So much better are the terms to that province under the Intercolonial scheme than those upon which they offered themselves to join us in building that road, two years ago, Hon. Mr. Tilley says : — Of the coat of that road (the Intercolonial Rail' way) New Brunawick and Nova Sootia had guar" anteed the provincial credit for seven-twelfths, and Canada for five-twelfths. Now, if the Con- fsderation would build the road. New Brunawick and Nova Scotia would be relieved of the inter est on the a?Ten millions, amounting to $420,000, as well as upon the interest of the three and a half-twelftha of the three milliona sterling, amounting to $190 000, making in all $610,000 provided for hy the General Government. Thia liberal bribe to bring New Brunswick into the union, one would think, was quite enough to satisfy the little province ; but Hon. Mr. TiLLET adds :— Over and above all these advantages, we get for t«n years a subsidy of 163,000 per anuum. Our local expenditures summed up amount to $320,630, and we get from the General Govern ment, without increased taxation, $90,0ii0, in lieu of our import duty and casual territorial revenue, 80 cents per head ou the population, raaking $201,637, and a special aubsidy of $63,000 a year for ten yeara, making in all $354,637, being $34,000 over and above our { resent necessities. These (says Hon. Mr. Tilley) are the prin cipal points looked to. Hon.Mr. Tilley is very candid, and acknowledges these advan tages in the name of "subsidies." He further assures his audience in the foUowing words : — But we are asked, what guarantee have you that you will continue to receive these subsidies pro miaed by the General Government? Most un questionable security — we are not at the mercy of the Canadians. ' * So close ia the contest between parties in the Canadian Legislature, that even the five Prince Edward Island members hy the'r votes, could turn victory on whatever side they choose, and have the game entirely in their own handa. This is the success with which Hon. Mr. Til ley has acted on behalf of tbe people of New Bmnswick, and I think the Commissioner of Crown Lands, when he reflects upon the ad vantages that the eastern provinces have re ceived over those obtained by Canada, wiU admit that I was not far astray the other day when I said that our public men had acted with a great deal of recklessness. It appears to me that they went to work with the deter mination to get Confederation — to get it on fair terms if they could, but to get it on any terms that might be found necessary to con- SBo cede to the Lower Provinces. (Hear, hear.) Another of the delegates to the Quebec Con ference, Hon. Mr. Whelan, of Prince Edward Island, enumerates all the advantages that will be secured to that province by Confeder ation, and winds up by saying, that that little island wiU have $40,000 a year more than necessary to carry on its local affairs. (Hear.) Taking all these circumstances into consider ation, I do think the Govemment ought to have given more time to deliberate upon and perfect this measure ; and, at any rate, to leave it over till another seaaion of Parliament before demanding a final deciaion upon the queation. Failing to do that, and failing to conaent, to any alteration in any one of the reao lutiona, however objectionable, I think it it is our duty to refer it to the people for their deciaion upon it. I know I will be met with the objection that thia is con trary to British practice — that a reference to the people in the manner I propose ia unknown to the British Constitution. We may say the same thing in regard to every branch of legislation and public business in this country, that it differs in some reapecta from the mode of conducting it which pre vails in England; but we must remember that we are differently situated in this coun try from the people of England, and that our feelings and habits of thought upon public aff.iirs are altogether different. And since we have adopted the principle in the conduct of our municipal affairs, to refer aU matters in volving the expenditure of money for special purposes to the people, it will do no possible harm to apply it to this measure ; and if the people adopt it, and it should afterwards prove that they had entered into a bad bargain, they would have no one to blame but them selves, and I have no doubt would, under such circumstances, bear it more patiently. But if we take the opposite courae, if we close thia arrangement on terma diaadvan- tageoua to us, it will be many years before a change can be effected. Would Prince Ed ward Ialand, at the demand of Canada, give up the lien, the constitutional right ahe will have obtained under this scheme, to the money she receives over and above what ia neceaaary to meet her local requirements? Not at aU. Would Newfoundland give up her bonua of $160,000 a year for aU time, should the looked for coal not be found to pay ? Not a bit of it. Would Nova Seotia give up her right to impose an export duty on coals and other minerals, because Canada found that this right gave her undue advan tages? Certainly not. Would New Bruns wick surrender her right to levy an export duty on timber, or, at the call of Canada, give any extra asaiatance towarda the construc tion of the Intercolonial Railway, which will benefit her far more largely than any of the other provinces, inasmuch as it will open up a large tract of country within her borders, and render the land and timber it containa far more valuable ? Undoubtedly she would not ; we would have to abide by our agree ment, no matter how invidious might be the advantages it conferred, no matter how un favorably it might affect westem interesta. (Hear, hear. ) The complaint that has been made against the working of the present union is that in Lower Canada the people do not pay as much in taxes to the general rev enue, man for man, as the people of Upper Canada. It waa contended, I believe, by the picscnt Attorney General East, at a speech delivered some years aince to hia con atituents at -^'erchferea, that the expenditure for the redemption of seigniorial rights did not affect Lower Canada very much, because Upper Canada paid two-thirds of the revenue of the country ; and all the advocates of the woitern section, who have urged its rights before the people, have taken the ground that it contributed in that proportion to the public exchequer. Now, if there be any truth in this statement, it must follow that under this arrangement Canada, at all events, wUl have to pay more, man for man, than the eastern provinces to the general revenue, because it cannot be contended, I apprehend, that Prince Edward Island, Ne-wfoundland, or either of the other Maritime Provincea, however pros- p2rou3 their condition may be, have a popula tion as wealthy as that of Upper Canada, or- one that will contribute as much in taxes to the General Government. If then, during the paat. Lower Canada has paid less than Upper Canada to the revenue, while enjoying the benefit of as large or perhaps a larger expen diture than that section, what is propoaed to be done now ? Why, to remove that diffi culty which led almoat to a dead-lock in our legialation, to get rid of the embarraasments that have beset the Government of thia coun try for many yeara past, we are asked to adopt a scheme that will perpetuate them on a larger scale than before, and involve, in the con struction of the Intercolonial Railway alone, the expenditure of a miUion or a million and a half annually for ever. (Hear, hear.) How absurd then to urge on this scheme without at least sharing tho responsibility of it with the 331 people ? Why not take time and maturely consider it ? Why not submit it to the verdict of those who have to pay its cost, and if they accept it, let them bear the con sequences. (Hear, hear.) With regard to the constitution of the Upper House of the proposed General Legislature, a good deal has been said, but I think the main point has too often been lost sight of. The course of the debate upon these resolutions has seemed to run in some instances as though we regarded a membership of this branch of the Legislature a position which we ought to occupy by right, as though we had some sort of a constitutional right to remain here, and as though governments and parliamentary bodies were instituted by the people, not for the benefit of the community, but for the ad vancement of those who compose them. We would seem to have overlooked a fundamental principle of all free governments, that govern ments should be carried on for the good ofthe governed ; and the principle of responsible govemment, according to which government must be carried on according to the well-un derstood wishes of the people. Hon. Mr. McCREA — As expressed by their representatives. Hon. Mr! REESOR — As expressed, my honorable friend says, by their representa tives. Very well ; we must remember that those who constitute the Government of this country have brought down here a very curi ous scheme, and have held out to you the in ducement that if you support it you have a chance of being appointed for life to the seat you occupy ; and there is thus a probability of your being blinded to what you owe to the people, of your ignoring the constituencies that sent you here, and of your forgetting the duty you owe to the country. Now, I hold with regard to the elective principle in this 11 ouse, that the oftener a man is brought in contact with the people in a legitimate way, to learn their wishes as constitutionally and properly expressed, the more likely he is to use his influence and talent in conducting the govemment in such a manner as to secure the happiness and prosperity of the country. (Hear, hear.) It is said that, as you have a responsible govemment, the Govemment of the day wiU be held responsible to the people, through their representatives in the lower branch of the Legislature for the appoints ments, it may make to this House. Admitting this to be the case, we know what the ten dency is in England, and what it was in this country when the Government had the appointment of the members of the Legislative Council ; the effect will be to find a place in this House for men distinguished for the aid tbey have given at elections to cer tain men or parties, and not as a reward of true merit or legislative abUity. Further more, if this House is to be of any value at all, it is as affording a wholesome check over hasty and unwise legislation. But if you place the whole legislation of the country in the hands of a single man or body, I care not whether it is democratic or aristrocratic in its tendencies, a power like that in the hands of the Executive to create the Legislative Coun cil is a dangerous one. Unrestrained or un checked action by a single elected body of the most democratic character is apt to go astray if they feel they have only themselves to con sult. This is what is proposed to be done under this scheme ; but let this House be elected, as before, by the people ; let them be retumed for a period of eight years as at pre sent, or even longer if desired, and then, if there is a demand for legislation of a selfish or iU-considered character — a demand which, founded on ignorance or passion, is likely to right itself after the lapse of a few years — the members of this House would take the re sponsibility upon themselves of rejecting it, and public opinion would eventually sustain them and acknowledge that they have done some service to the country. But inasmuch as you appoint these members for life, you have no check over them, nor are they so likely to check legislation of an immature and ill-considered character. While the Ministry of the day wbich appoints them remains in power, it will expect and receive a cordial support from them ; but let it be defeated, and a ministry, formed out of the opposite party, obtain office, there wUl certainly be difhculty — there wUl be a tendency to dead-locks be tween the two branches of the legislature, and a repetition of those scenes which were wit nessed in this country some years ago, and which formed one of the principal causes that brought about the rebellion of 1837. Honor able gentlemen say that we will have the power to remedy those defects in the scheme if they are found to be injurious in their ac tion, but it is well known from the experience of the past that no power can be brought to bear to bring about any change that may be required, without a great deal of agitation and labor. What has been the agitation to secure a change in the representation of the two sections of Canada in Parliament ? It has been going on for ten or twelve years. 332 and yet, on the eve of accompUshment, those who have advocated it have not effected a change of the nature that was desired, but have jumped into a new and totaUy different scheme, that really seems to me to have been brought about for the sole purpose of advancing their own personal aims, rather than satisfying any demand on the part of the people. (Hear, hear.) The hon orable and gallant Knight at the head of the Government stated that we were on an in clined plane, and in danger of sliding into the republicanism of the United States. This phrase has been referred to so often by honor able members who have spoken, and so many deductions have been drawn from it, that I may perhaps be permitted to say a few words upon it. I think all must see that the ten dency of the scheme now before the House will be in a few years to impose direct taxation upon the people for the support of the local governments. Let us then have direct taxa tion, and what wiU be the result ? If there is a large expenditure on the part of the Gen eral Government, in addition to this taxation, politioal agitators will arise, who wiU cry out that the public burdens are unequally borne —(hear) — that two-thirds of the revenue is borne by the people living west of Quebec — that ia, the population west of this city will, man for man, pay twice as much to the public exchequer as the population east of it. There wUl undoubtedly be the same tendency, under such a state of things, as has been charged to exist on the part ofthe Lower Canadian representatives since the union was formed — -namely, a tendency on the part of those who pay the smaller portion of the re venue to spend the public money freely and extravagantly. They will naturaUy say when any appropriation is proposed for their own section — " We will go for this expenditure, for it wiU benefit us; and we wiU support a corresponding expenditure in the other sec tion, because we have not so much to pay of it as the people of that section — we will havo only fifty cents to pay of it, while they will have to pay a dollar." Thia argument will be used in aupport of all extravagant and waateful expenditurea, and you may depend upon it that they wUl soon be incurred. Then you will have political agitatora who will con stantly keep these thinga before the people, who wUl_ demand a dissolution ofthe union of the provinces as a remedy for the evil. Then a further difficulty will be found in the fact that breadstuffs, the American market for which wiU probably he closed, cannot be transported to tho Lower from the Upper Provinces without being protected by a heavy import duty. Will the representatives from the Lower Provinces aUow that import duty to be imposed ? No, undoubtedly they wiU not. Attempt to carry it in the interest of Ui^per Canada and you will at once transform the whole of them into advocates for the repeal of the union. Thus you create cause for agitation in all the sections, and it wiU not long continue until you will again see another dead-lock. You wUl again have three administrations formed and three gen eral elections occurring within two years, and again you will have sufficient excuse for another change in the Constitution. And you may rely upon it, that before such an agita tion goes on five years it will be made an ex cuse for sliding further down the inclined plane than would have been afforded if we had remained as we were. (Hear, hear.) 1 c.in- not help coming to the conclusion, honorable gentlemen, that these resolutions contain the seeds of our destruction as colonies. There can be no political advantage in the proposed union, unless we assume the rights and respon sibUities of an independent country. We are not yet prepared for that step. Our popula tion is not numerous enough ; we are too young and too weak to assume those rights and res ponsibilities. We have no commercial advan tages 10 gain by the union. Why then force it upon us ? Let it rcn^ain for more mature consideration, and the evils you have wiU be borne the more quietly ; but if you force it upon the people prematurely, and the evila I fear spring from it, depend upon it that tho public meu who press it forward wiU be as seriously condemned as they are now highly lauded. The fact is, the people of the country do not understand this scheme. How can it be expected that they should understand it in all its bearings ? Why, the honorable member from the Rideau Division said he heard the expla nations of it and was here a couple of weeks before he understood it, and that he had aent 2000 circulars to his constituents that they might have a knowledge of it. How can he expect them to understand it from these print ed documents, when he himself, with the ad yantage of hearing all the explanations upon it, was two weeka in gaining an underatand ing of it? Honorable gentlemen, I am in tho abstract in favor of the union of theae colon- iea—(hear, hear)— but I do not wish to force on this scheme in a way that is unfair and un- 333 just, that will lead to future difficulties of even a graver character than those we are now laboring under, and that will give cause for the advocacy of such a change in our position as few in this country would desire to see brought about. (Hear, hear.) The House then divided upon the amend ment, with the following resiUt : — Contents. — Honorable Messieura Aikina, Ar chambault, Armstrong, Bennett, Bureau, Chaf fera, Currie, A. J. Duchesnay, Flint, Leonard, Leslie, Malhiot, Moore, Olivier, Proulx, Reesor, Seyaiour, Simpson, Vidal. — 19. NoN-CoNTENTS. — Honorable Messieurs Alex ander, Allan, Armand, Sir N. P.Belleau, Blake, Boulton, Boss6, Bull, Campbell, Christie, Craw ford, DeBeaujeu, Dickson, B. H. J. Duchesnay, Dumouchel, Foster, Gingras, Guevremont, Ham ilton (Inkerman), Hamilton (Kingston), Lacoste, McCrea, McDonald, McMaster, Macpherson, Ma theson, Milla, Panet, Price, Eead, Boss, Ryan, Shav.', Skead, Sir E.P. Tache, Wilson.— 36. So the amendment waa negatived. Hon. Sir E. P. TACHE a.aid— I am anx ious that honorable gentlemen .should have a full opportunity of expressing themselves upon the measure which is now before the House, and as I am the mover of the resolutions, I think it is but just and fair that I should close the debate. (Hear, hear.) If no other hon orable gentleman desires to speak upon them, I think that before the vote is taken I should have an opportunity of answering the argu ments that have been advanced against tbe scheme, and of explaining certain expressions that have fallen from me. I believe the House will be disposed to give me that fair play which has always been given under cir cumstances shmilar to these — (hear, hear) — ¦ and I purpose, therefore — no other honorable gentleman desiring to address the House — to close the debate this evening. Hon. Mr. CURRIE— I would ask if it is the intention of the Government to explain the reaolutiona more fully than haa been done ? Hon. Mr. CAMPBELL— The members of the Government wUl be happy to afford any information the honorable member may desire. The House then adjourned till eight o'clock in the evening, and on reassembling, Hon. Mr. RYAN said — ^The importance of the vote we are about to give on these reso lutions is very great, as the future of the couutry is so largely dependent upon it, and icpresentiiig as 1 di) the division ol Victoria, which ia ono of the most important in the country, containing a large representation of tbose sectiooa or divisions ofracea whicii make up the populatiop of Canada, I think it due to my constituents to make a few observations upon the subject before us. (Hear.) If the constitueucy I represent is, perhaps, not quite the most numerous in the country, it possesses a largo share of the wealth, busi neaa and manufacturing energy and coramer cial enterprise of the province. It also contains, in not very unequal proportiona, people ofthe different nationalities, religions and languages which most largely prevail amongst us. You have the French element, with the Roman Catholic religion and French language ; you have the English, Scotch and Irish Protestant element, and you have the Irish Roman Catholic element, which I may be said more especially to repre sent, and which is by no means an unimportant one. Go through Canada, and you will find that these, with a few European foreigners, such as Germans and Norwegians, make up nearly the whole population. My diviaion is, in fact, an epitome of Canada. (Hear, hear.) It may not be too much to say that the opinion and feeling of Montreal will be a fair representation of what the opinion of the country generally is, and that if Montreal has come to a nearly unanimous conclusion, it is very likely the different sections of the country will have arrived at a very aimilar one on the subject of Confederation. I am happy to be able to state with confidence, that I have taken pains to ascertain the opiniona of each of the different sections of my constituency to which I have alluded, and that I believe they are in consonance with the votes I have given in this charaber. (Hear, hear.) I have alluded to the energy Of my constituenta, to their great commercial enterpriae. I believe that energy ia one of their leading .characteristics, and I may say this, that if that energy has led them, on rare occasions, a little further than their own interest and that of the country required, they, nevertheless, on such occasioca acted on an honest and generoua impulse, or were prompted by the feeling that some injustice had been done to them. I was greatly gratified with the remarka of the honorable and gallant Premier at the commencement of thia debate, wben aUuding to eventa which long since took place in Montreal; ho put the blame where it really should rest — on the Legislature of the day, which was pressing on the people a raeasure distaateful to them, and whioh waa vainly remonstrated againat by numerous portions of the country. The same impulsive character whioh led 334 them at that time into a course which is certainly much to be regretted, afterwards led them to countenance a movement of which I disapproved at the time, and which I opposed with all my might — the move ment towards annexation. They favored that movement, because they thought they had been aggrieved and maltreated. But I nay tell you now, that this feeling haa coiu- pletely vaniahed, and that their wish now ia to place Canada on a footing in which, united with the Lower Provinces and in close con nection witli Great Britain, she may be thoroughly independent of her neighbors, and free from any need cf looking again towards Washington. (Hear, hear.) In considering the project of Confederation, one of the principal subjects which has under gone discussion in this House has been the proposed Conatitution of the Council, and tbe moat prominent question connected with it has been the question of the elective versus the nominative principle. Although an elected member, I voted without the least hesitation against the elective principle, and I believe that in doing so I represented the views of my constituen ts as well as my own — I mean the great majority of my constituents, for there may be some exceptions with re gard to this point, as there are no doubt with respect to the general question of Con federation. I based my vote on what is, I think, a true principle in politics, which is that if you wish a check to be established, such as I think this Council ia intended to eatabliah on the legialation of the other branch, you muat not have the two Chambers returnable by the same constituents. If the constituents of both Houses are nearly the same, you lose the power of check, or at least you will not have it effectual, because you will have the same sentiments and feel ings represented in this House as in the other. I am not singular in this opinion, but were I to cite the opinions of men who are of a conservative turn of mind, and who have always upheld the privileges of the aristocracy and the prerogative of the Grown, I ahould, perhapa, give you opiniona which would carry less weight with the opponents of this measure than will that of a gentleman whose views I will cite, who has written a great deal, and very ably, and who belongs to the ranks of the advanced Liberal party iu England — I mean Mr. John Stuart Mill. In his chapter on the Second Chamber (^Considerations on Representative Government, page 242), he says : — That there should he in every polity a centre of resistance to the predominant power in the Conatitution — and in a democratic conatitution, therefore, a nucleus of resistance to the demo cracy — I have already maintained, and I regard it as a fundamental maxim of government. If any people who possess a democratic representation are, irom their historical antecedents, more willing to tolerate such a centre of resistance in the forra ofa Second Chamber or House of Lords than iu any other ahape, this con.stitutes a strong reason for having it in that shape. Now, honorable gentleraen, I think a Second Chamber, constituted nearly in the same way as the Lower Chamber, would be wholly ineffectual to stop the current of legislation coming from that Chamber; the point, in deed, admita of very little question. (Hear, hear.) The objections which have been raised to nomination by the Crown or the Execu tive Government are of very little effect at this tirae of day. For myself I should have preferred to have the nomination of legis lative councillors vested in the Crown inde pendently cf the recommendation of the Local Government, so as to have left the pre rogative unfettered. There is no doubt that abuses formerly existed in Canada when the nominative system was in force — before res ponsible government was eatablished and when the Colonial Office meddled a good deal with the affaira of the province; but now every honorable gentleman with any koow- ledge of hiatorical eventa in Canada will say at once the case is altogether altered. So far from interfering in our internal matters, the Colonial Office now leaves us a great deal to ourselves and lets us do aa we please. There never was a freer Constitution than ours. Under these altered circumstances, I should have preferred, I say, that in order to avoid all appearance of nominations for party purposes, the direct nomination of le gislative councillors ahould have been left to the Crown or the Crown 'a repreaentative in the Confederation. (Hear.) There was one remark made by the hon. member for Welliogtou in reference to Mr. Cardwell'.s letter, which I think was made in error. He inferred from that despatch that Mr. Card- WELL was opposed to the nominative sys tem. Now, the passage he alluded to was this : — The second point which Her Majesty's Govern ment desired should be reconsidered ia the Consti tution of the Legislative Council. They appreciate the considerations whioh have influenced the Co:;- ierence in determining the mode in which this body, so Important to the constitation of the Le- 535 gislature, ahould be compoaed. Butit appearato- them to require further conaideration whether, if the membera be appointed for life, and their number be fixed, there will be any aufficient means of restoring harmony between the Legisla tive Council and the popular Aasembly, if it ahall ever unfortunately happen that a decided differ ence of opinion ahall ariae between them. Now the point of thia (xMr. Cardwell's) objection clearly ia to the number being fixed, not to the principle of nomination, nor to membera being appointed for life. (Hear, hear.^ Like many honorable gentlemen in this House, there are certain of the clauses in these resolutions which, I think, might have been improved. I, for instance, might have preferred the Confederate seat of gov ernment being established elsewhere than at Ottawa; and, with reference to this subject, I have been much struck with a remark, which I will cite, from a recent writer, who says that — "Any country compelled to fore go the use of its natural chief city, and make some inferior and ill-placed town the seat of its government, labors under incalculable disadvantages." Everybody, however, has his own little bantling, and thinks it the handsomest in the world; and I doubt very much if, after all, we should have made the plan of Confederation much better, had every one of us been consult ed and taken into the Conterence, at Charlotte town or Quebec, to urge our own special views. (Hear, hear.) I rather infer, from the dif ferences of opinion I have heard around me in these debates, that the compromise system would not have been so easily adopted by us as by the gentlemen wbo composed those conferences. I hope, however, that we ahall adopt that system now, and get through the debate in the faith that they have done what is best for the intereata of the country, and that the meaaure ia ao important, as a whole, as to render it unwise to place minor impedi ments in its way to interrupt its course. (Hear, hear.) I have marked several sec tions of the resolutions which I think are open to objection or auaceptible of improve ment, and I hope the honorable and gallant Knight at the head of the Government will give some explanations reapecting the views which animated the Conference in reference to them. One of them is a matter in which Lower Canada is somewhat peculiarly inter ested — the system of marriage and divorce, which, I see, is to be left in the hands of the Federal Government. I hope nothing will be done by the General Government, in rela tion to this question, which will outrage the feelings of Lower Canada, or lead to the laxity, in dealing with the marriage tie, which prevails south of the line 45°. (Hear, hear.) Again, emigration is a subject which is left to the Local as well aa the General Government to deal with. I think it should bo under tho care of tho General Govern ment entirely. Then, as to the question of education, I hope the Government will secure to Roman Catholics in Upper Canada the same rights which will be extended to Pro testants in Lower Canada. To have the same privileges is only equal justice, which I truat and believe will be granted. Having been iu communication with aeveral of the Roman Catholic clergy, I can say that they desire to have every justice done to their Protestant fellow-subjects, but expect to have the same privileges granted to Roman Catholics in Upper Canada (who are the minority there,) as will be given to the Protestant minority in Lower Canada. (Hear, hear.) I must also refer to the clause which gives to local governments the right of dividing the sec tions of the Confederation into constituencies and electoral diviaiona. This power may become very dangerous and lead to great practical injustice, and should, I think, be placed in the handa ot the General Govern ment. I come now to the queation of rail way extenaion, and thia ia a matter which aeema to have been a aerious stumbling-block to a great number of those who are really favorable to the measure of Confederation. Now, I do not think the Intercolonial Railway wUl be a profitable concern, all at once ; but I think I can remove a few of the objections which have been raised to thia part of the acheme. In the firat place, I think a miatako prevaila !.s to what will bo the cost of carrying freight on this railway. I have here the annual Trade and Navigation Returns of New Brunswick for 1863, in which I find the following statement : — If New Brunawick was connected with Mon treal and Quebec by direct railway communication through British territory, our importations from the Statea would decrease immediately, and much of our flour and other supplies would come diiect from Canada ; and in the event of the Reciprocity Treaty and the bonding system of the Un.ted Statea, which allows British goods to pass through their territory free of duty under bond to Canada, being abolished, Saint John would probably become the Atlantic shipping port of Canada for the winter months. People may suppose the rates of freight 336 would be so very extravagant that this could not come to pass ; but in the same report, which has very opportunely come to hand, as it corroborates tbe remarks I made during tho debate on the Address as to the fact that we should have some offset in the trade of the Lower Provinces, under Confederation, for what we should lose if the Reciprocity Treaty were to be annulled, I find the following statement : — The cost of transportation of flour from Mont real to Portland, Maine, by rail, has been reduced to the low figure of 35 cents per barrel, and from Portland, Maine, to thia port, it can be conveyed for 25 cents by ateamer, or 15 cents by sailing vessel, making altogether 60 cents for conveying a barrel of flour, weighing 200 lbs., by rail and steam, a distance of 585 milea, and it could be delivered at thia port (St. John, N. B.) within five or six days from the time of loading at Mont real. Of course these low rates of railway freight apply to large quantities only. Well now, gentleraen, the distance from Montreal to St. John, by railway, is at a rough estimate about 600 miles. Hon. Mr. CURRIE— Not ao much— about 600 only. Hon. Mr. RYAN— So much the better for my argument, but I will give my hon. friend tbe benefit of the 600 milea. l^ow, the further a barrel of flour is carried the leaa the freight per mile ia, becauae you get rid of the coat of handling it at auccessive stagea. If you can carry it from Montreal to Portland, say .800 milea, for 35 cents, you can certainly carry it 600 miles for less than twice that sum, or let ua aay for 60 cents, not more than what it now costs by the combined rail and steamboat route via Portland, while the flour conveyed all the way by rail will be the better for not being moved about from one means of conveyance to another. I have indeed reason to believe, from a very good railway authority, that it would pay a railway company well to carry flour from Montreal to St. John for from 60 to 70 cents per barrel, and that if it were necesaary, the work could be done at a proflt at 50 centa per ba-irel. (Hear, hear.) I want to ahew by thia, that the carrying of flour over the Intercolonial Railway will not be so difficult of accom plishment aa people who bavo not gone into the calculation cloaely may be diapoaed to imagine. (Hear, hear.) I have here, too, a statement of the imports ol flour into New Brunawick, Nova Scotia and Newfoundland. It ia as follows : — Importa of Flour. Barrela. New Brunawick 243,000 Nova Scotia 328,000 Newfoundland 226,000797,000 If we now look at our imports and exports for 1863, we shall find that we imported into Canada 4,210,942 bushels of wheat, while we exported only 3,030,407 bushels. Well, this may appear strange, considering that we are an agricultural and exporting country; but we come next to the article of flour, and find that while we imported only 229,793 barrels, we exported 1,095,691 barrels. Hon. BIr. CURRIE— We imported wheat to grind it into flour. Hon. Mr. RYAN— Exactly so. The excess of flour exported waa 865,898 barrels, which, taken at 4J bushels to the barrel, would be equal to 3,836,541 bushels of wheat. Deducting from thia the excesa of our importa over our exporta of wheat, viz., 1,180,535 bushels, wiU leave us 2,716,006 for export, which at the same calculation, viz., 4J bushels to the barrel, gives us 603,557 barrela of surplus flour, ground from wheat in Canada, with which to supply the demand of the three Maritime Provinces mentioned of 797,000 barrela. (Hear, hear.) Thus, if the Reciprocity Treaty be repealed, we can just about supply what they annually require. ^ (Hear, hear.) Their importation's aie moreover very conatant, for the return aays : — Our importations of wheat flour in ISeS'amount- ed to 2-)3,391 barrels, against 232,237 barrels in 1862; 210,676 barrels in 1861, 198,323 barrels in 1860 ; 295,356 barrels in 18:9 , 226,649 bar rels in 185Sj and 153,515 barrels in 1857. That is as far as wheat or wheaten flour is concerned They conaume also a large quantity of pork, a large quantity of beef and other produce ; but I do not wish to trespaaa longer upon the time of the House, VOICES— "Goon." Hon. Mn. RYAN— I will just read from the New Brunswick return. It says : — Our importations into the Province in 1863, of all kinds of agricultural produce, amounted in value to $2,n60,702,[the description of which was as followa :— Flour and meal of all kinds, bread, beans, peas and pot barley, $1,333,786 ; grain of all kiuda, bran, horae [and pig feed, $148,413; vegetables, including potatoes, §76,769; meats 337 viz., salted, cured and fresh, including poultry, $242,933 ; butter, cheese, lard and eggs, $75,235 : animals, including horses, oxen, cows, sheep and piis, S58 7t5; apples, pears, plums, cranberries, &c., $60,257; tallow and soap grease, $29,973, hops, $i,22ii ; hay, $3,142 ; malt, $4,719; shrubs, trees, &c., $2,188 ; seeds, $10,815 ; wool, $8,531 ; amounting altogether in currency to £515,175. '1 he value ofthe agricultural produce imported in 1862 was £476,581 currency; in 1861 it was £427,083 currency ; andiu 1860 it waa £447,341 currency. The Nova Scotia and Newfoundland returna alao show that large quantities of agricultural pro'!uc3 of all kinda are imported into theae colonies, aa well aa immenae quantities of pork and other meats which we could easily and profitably supply. Now all these articles Canada will be able to supply, and this is another item in the return which is very noticeable. The Lower Prov'inces import large quantities of boots and shoes. The New- Brunswick return atatea that — The value of boots and ahoea imported in 1863 was $.59.851 — duty, $7,521; against $.')7,957— duty, S9,105, inl862; $101,967— duty, $16,385, in 1861 ; and $131,424— duty, $20,832, in 1860. Theae under Confederation would go duty free from Canada. There ia a large manu facture of such articles, and with them, as with aome other articles we make, we might supply the Lower Province markets. (Hear, hear.) If there is one feature in our con nection with the Lower Provinces which we must not loae aight of, it ia their posaeaaing coal in large quanfitiea; thia ia aure eventu ally to create manufacturing oommunitiea amoogat them, to increaae their population, and cauae a larger horae demand than at preaent, for the agricultural productiona of Western Canada. (Hear, hear.) I may now recur to the Intercolonial Railway quea tion, and expreaa a hope that it will be gone about by the G jvernment in the most econo mical manner possible. Thia much may be said, that whatever money ia spent on it will be spent in the country, that is, incur new country, will be spent among ourselves, and will attract a great army of laborers ; and I do hope and trust the Administration will so .irrange the prosecution of the work; -that 'those 'laborers sliaH -be itidiiced to i-settlS; on the latids- tl-avfersed ' by the' line^:.' which),' iJatii wMj^SLK'^eif' fh^orkhh to ¦ settleaiien t, isei- thkfStfother mark^f foi*' oui- mannfactuiics aad f)4-odaotibifs iii&fh'^ foi'mfed -; ai^jthat iSjbki Re '(^ai'^&iit las;' it is'by "tff^ ' aid ot' ih^fif' ' har%'reSf4^ifrg'ppillam'-;Wi'^ll'^^^ai''^ the seaports of the Confederacy and tha 338 Empire, and act with great effect upon the commerce and sea-board towns of any foreign foe It has been said, honorable gentlemen, that this measure is being hurried thruugh the House, and complaint has been made that it has not been referred to the country for arbitrament. But, look at the conse quences of so referring it to the country. Look at the cinsequences of delay. You have read tbe telegram to-day which gives the news of the assembliog oi the Britisli Parliament, and I am glad to aee a atatement in Her Majesty's Speech, that She haa approved of the measure which is now under our consideration. Well, gentlemen, the Parliament of Great Britain will not sit for an unlimited time. Ita session, this year, may be shorter than uSaal, for tbe natural dissolution of this aud the asa.mbling of a new Parliament are drawing near, aud con tending parties generally make an effort, towards the close ofa Parliament, to makea change in the Adminiatration. Any one who reads the EngUsh papera and political docu- menta will aee that a change of 31inistry s confidently expected by sorae people ; and if a defeat of the present Ministry takes place, and Parliament is dissolved, their own affairs will occupy the minds of Britiah statoamen, so that when again called together, for a abort time in aummer, it may be raerely to legia- late on local mattera, aud our Confederation project raay thua be indefinitely delayed. Hon. Mr. CURRIE— Ho much the better. Hon. Mr. RYAN — I think any man with his eyea open will aee that eventa are march ing on upon thia continent with yreat atrides Event follow.-! event iu such rapid aucceasion that we can hardly tell whither the tide will flow next. Already we hear the great anti cipated auccesses of the North. If the news be true that Charleaton has been evacuated, it will be a severe blow to tbe cause of the South; and if the South be conquered, we know what have been the aentimenta towards Canada expreaaed in the United States for the laat three yeara. They will, perhapa, turn north for fuither conqueats, aud try to humble a power which has not in every way met their wiahea. We should, at all eventa, be prepared to meet such a contingency, prepared to repel attack, prepared to defend our homes and the free Constitution under which we live, I will c include by saying that if the citizens of Montreal have been accused in former times of energy iu a wrong direction, they are prepared now, and I speak it advisedly, to use that energy for the de fence of the province. Forthe people of the nationality to which I belong, I will further say they have come to thia country to find a home and they have found one, where they are not oppresaed by any wrongs, where there is no invidioua distinction between racea aud creeds. They appreciate the bleaaing and value of the inatitutions under which they live, they are ready to defend thera, and tbey look on the union of the Britiah North American Provincea as the aurest means of preserving!- and perpetuating them. (Cheers.) Hon. Mr. PRICE — Honorable gentlemen, being one of the newly elected members of this House, I would like to say a few words, by way of defining my po.sition, before the vote is taken. Although I have said that I wa« in fiivor of Confederation as the only means by which we could make proper pro vision for our defence, yet, untU I understood the details more clearly than what I could learn from the resolutions, I could not make up my mind to vote for it. Previous to the declaration at the election in my di-vision, the press had circulated the views of the Confer ence, and I went over the details so far as I Was in possession of them, and the verdict of the people at the hustinga was unanimously in favor of the soheme. (Hear, hear.) I would like to enter into a discussion of the details, clause by clause, but it is impossible to do so at the present time. It is not sur prising that almost every member of the House is opposed to one or more of the reso lutions ; it ia impossible for us, even when we go into committee on almost any subject, to unanimously agree on all the clauses. Before going further I wish to thank my honorable friend the gallant Knight at the head of the Government, for his kind remarks with refer ence to my father and myaelf, at the opening of this debate. For the last twenty years I have been known and resided iu the consti tuency which sent me here, and if I have been elected without much opposition, it was from friendship towards me on the part of my con stituenta. Although I represent people hav ing different religious views, yet I believe only twenty-six Protestant votes were given lor me. I have had a great deal of personal friendship and intercourse with the Roman Catholic clergy of Lower Canada, and must say I have always found them liberal and loyal in their views, and, as a body, almogj 339 unanimous in supporting the acheme of Con federation, being convinced that it is the only sortie from our present political troubles, and of our continuing under the British Crown, knowing well the liberty that all subjects en joy under it ; and I feel certain t.iat if ever the day comes to defend the British flag on thia soU, while a shred is left on the staff they wiU be there to defend it. Being an elected member of this House, who by this scheme may be offered a seat fbr life, I beg to say that I care little for the chance ; but I have been congratulated by my consti tuents, on all sides, upon the prospect before me, and if I vote for the measure as it standa I shaU not, therefore, in any way displease them. Although I voted for rendering this House elective, in 1856, yet I did so, contrary to my own convictions, for the sole purpose of suataining the Government, believing that this House should be a conservative body. I consider that this should be a special branch, where we should judge measures without re ference to popular prejudices, if such a thing were possible. I think we are here to judge without that politioal partiality which actuates most of the members of the Lower House, some of whom got their seats by a majority of one. I am sure persons elected in that manner can hardly claim to represent the popular feeling of the country. For my part, I intend to vote for theae resolutions, for it becomes a matter of choioe with ua either to support them and thus become one strong Confederacy, or else go by driblets into the American Union. (Hear, hear.) I am fidly convinced that we are tending rapidly towards annexation, and that the only thing that can save u» is the formation of a atrong Confederacy. And if that ia not done imme diately, I firmly believe that we shall let the golden opportunity slip, and wiU not again have the opportuoity. Honorable gentlemen say that our debt wiU be rapidly increased under Confederation. Well, that is hard to say, but I think it quite likely it may in crease slightly. But what would be our debt if we were annexed to the United States ? What would our taxes be if we had a propor tion of the enormous war debt of that country to pay, in addition to our own ? For my part, believing as I do tbat this is the only hope of the countiy, and the present the only opportunity we shall have of carrying it through — and ao far as I know it is the only one — I should feel myself unworthy the posi tion I hold if I did not vote in favor of it. It is the only practicable scheme that has ever come before the country for settling the difficulties that bave afflicted the country. For the past ten yeara, during which I have had the honor of being a representative of the people, there has always been a running fight between the ins and outs — first one side and then the other, contending for oflice, and the result has been anything but satisfactory to the country. I think if honorable members would take an impartial view of this question, and conaider that wo cannot alter the details, if we deaired to do so, without defeating the whole, they would not hesitate to vote for it. As I understand it, the details in reference to the formation of our own local governments wiU be brought before us, and we shaU then have ample opportunity of considering and amending them if we think it necessary. (Hear, hear.) Hon. Mr. REESOR— I do not wish to make any lengthened remarks ; but there are one or two points to which I wish to call tha attention of the House before the vote is taken. (Cries of "Question," "question 1"; If I am out of order, I will take my seat. The Hon. the SPEAKER— The hon orable gentleman is perfectly in order. Hon. Mr. REESOR— I wish to oaU the attention of the House to the opinion of the celebrated author quoted by my honorable friend from Victoria Division (Hon. Mr. Ryan). My honorable friend quoted som« part of a work by Mr. John Stuart Mills, a celebrated writer on Representative Govern ment, but he did not go far enough. Mr. Mills says : — The consideration which tella moat in my judgment in favor of two Cliambera (and thia I do regard aa of some moment), ia the evil effect produced upon the mlud of any holder of power, whether an individual or an asaembly, by the consciousueas of having only themselves to con ault. This is perfectly true. But what does my honorable friend advocate? He advocates tbat the whole power shall be concentrated in the General Government ; that they shaU have the power to create this House, ao that the whole power ahall be legally centred in " one body." The writer he quoted goes on and condemns that principle in the foUowing words : — If the writings by which reputation haa been g-ainei are unconnected with politics, they are no evidence of the apecial qualities required, while, if political, they would enable successive miniatriea to deluge the House with party tools. That is the position to which my honorable 340 friend would drive us. He would give the ministry the power " to deluge this House with party tools." He then went on and proved too much with regard to the trade between tbe provinces. He said New Bruns wick and Nova Scotia would take our manu factures, that already we had large manu factures of boots and shoes, and that the Lower Provinces would take these and other manufactures frora us. And then he told us that they had coal in Nova Scotia, and that where there is coal, raanufactures will spring up. Hon. Mr. RYAN— Coal is not used in the manufacture of boots and shoes. Hon. Mr. REESOR— But coal makes a manufacturing country, and there is no reason why Nova Sootia, as a manufacturing country, should not nianufactuie boots and shoes as cheaply as they can bo m-anufactured at Montreal. I have lately learned from good authority that the very articles to which my honorable friend refers (boots and shoes) are now being largely manufactured in the city of St. John. Labor is quite as cheap in New Brunawick aa in Canada, and there ia no reaaon why they could not supply theraselves with the articles named, and with many othera, even cheaper than they can be aupplied from Canada. Hon. Mr. RYAN— Aa regards Blr. Mills' opiniona, the extract I read waa thia : — That there should be m every polity a centre of resistance to the predominant power in the Conatitution — aad in a democratic Constitut'on, therefore, a nucleus of resistance to the demo cracy — I have already maintained ; and I regard it aa a fundameutal maxim of government. If any people who possesa a democratic representa tion are, from their historical antecedents, moie willing to tolerate such a centre of resistance in the form of a, Second Chamber or House cf Lords, than in any other shape, this constitutes a strong reaaon for having it in that shape. He admita that a check can be uaed, and properly uaed, by a House of Lorda or a Legialative CouncU. Then he goea on to say that he doea not think thia the beat cheek, and preacribes a plan of his own ; but his statement on this point is too long to enter upon now. Hon. Mr. CURRIE— I wish to ask the Hon. Commissioner of Crown Lands a ques tion with reference to the meaning of the Sth sub-section of the 29th clauae, which com mits to tho General Parliament " the raising of money by all or any other modes cr sys- ems bf taxation." Am I to understand that he General Government are to have the pow er of imposing local taxation upon the lands of the provinces ? Hon. Mr. CAMPBELL — The general national power of taxation is to be in the General Govemment. Hon. Mr. CURRIE— The 34th sub-sec tion of the same clause commits to the Gen eral Government " the establishraent of a general Court of Appeal for the Federated pro vinces." Is that to be in lieu of the Courts of Appeal we now have? Is it intended to do away with the present Court of Appeal and to establish a new one ? Hon. Mr. CAMPBELL— I do not think my honorable friend has caught the meaning of what is intended. It does not say the general Court of Appeal shall be establiahed, but that the power to eatabliah it shaU be in the General Government. Hon. Mr. CURRIE— New Courts of Ap peal? Hon. Mr. CAMPBELL— If a statute of tbe Parliament of the United Provinces ahaU be paaaed creating a Court of Appeal, it will atate whether it ia in lieu of, or in addition to, the preaent Courta of Appeal. I should suppose it would be in addition. Hon. Mr. CURRIE— I think that point is one which we ought to underatand before giving a final vote; and I do not think the Hon. Commiaaioner of Crown Landa, with reference to_ it, haa fulfilled hia proraise to give an explicit answer to any question which might be put, to elicit further information about the scheme. Then the 43rd clause gives the Nova Scotia Legislature power to make laws respecting export duties on coal. What is the meaning of that ? Hon. Mr. CAMPBELL— I thought I had explained that the export duty "there was almost synonymous with our royalty. It is levied in lieu of a royalty at the mine ; and we therefore perrait the Nova Sootia Government to exact it on coal comino' to this country. Hon. Mr. CURRIE— The honorable gen tleman must see it cannot be a royalty, be cause the royalty must apply to all coal con sumed in the Province of Nova Scotia, while the export duty only applies to coal exported from that province. The 9 th sub-section of that clause impoaea on the local govern ments, " the establishment, maintenance and management of penitentiaries, and of public and reformatory prisons." There is but one penitentiary in Canada, which is situated in Upper Canada. Does this clause impose on 341 the Local Legislature of Lower Canada the construction and maintenance of a new Peni tentiary, leaving to Upper Canada the Peni tentiary now in existence in that province ? Hon. Mr. CAMPBELL— No doubt ; but Lower Canada may arrange with Upper Ca nada for the temporary use of the Peniten tiary, so long as she requires it, or for its per manent use, if that is thought better. Hon. Mr. CURRIE— By the 6th sub section the local legislatures have the control of " Education ; saving the rights and privil eges which the Protestant or Catholic minor ity in both Canadas may possess as to their denominational schools at the time when the union goes into operation." I do not know whether the representations which have been made in some portions of the country are correct — that, under this section the Roman Catholics would be entitled to no more schools than they have at the passing of the act ? Will the Commissioner of Crown Lands please explain ? Hon. Mr. CAMPBELL— By this section it is affirmed that the principle of action with reference to those schools whicii may be in existence at the time the Confederation takes effect, shaU continue in operation. Should this Parliament aud tbe other legislaturea adopt the scheme, and if the Iraperial Parlia ment adopts an act giving effect to it, there will be found iu existence certain principles by which the minorities in Upper and Lower Canada will be reapectively protected, and thoae principlea will continue in operation. Hon. Mr. CURRIE — But auppoae no alteration is made in the Common School Law of Upper Canada — and, as I understand, none is promised — would the Roman Catholics be entitled to establish more separate schools ? Hon. Mr. CAMPBELL— The pre-ent Act would continue to operate, and the honor able gentleman knowa what are the righta of Roman Catholic achools under that Act. Hon. Mr. CURRIE— That is the way in which I understand it. With reference to the 61st clause, I would ask is it proposed, at thia aeaaion of the Legislature, to arrange the balance of the debt — not taken into tho Con federation — between Upper and Lower Can ada ? Hon. Mr. CAMPBELL— It is proposed, before any Federation scheme goes into oper- tion, that the debt shall be arranged between Upper and Lower Canada. Hon. Mr. CURRIE— In the 64th section it is provided that, " in consideration of the traoster to the Generd Parliament of the powers of taxation, an annual grant in aid of each province shall be made, equal to eighty cents per head of the population, as establish ed by tho census of 1861 ; the population of Newfoundland being estimated at 130,000." Would the Commissioner of Crown Lands state wby the population of Newfoundland is to be estimated at 130,000, while the popula tion of the other provinces is taken according to the census of 1861 — Newfoundland thus being allowed 8,000 of a population more than it would be entitled to under the census, and being allowed to take in on that basis $200,- 000 more of debt, and also receiving more subsidy than it would otherwise be entitled to ? If we are to assume that the population of Newfoundland, increased 8,000 between 1861 and 1864 or 1865, why should not a similar increase be allowed to Canada? Assuraing that the population of Canada increased at no more rapid rate, we would have an increase of 160,000, which would entitle us to go into the Confederation with a debt exceeding that with which we now go in of upwards of $4,- 000,000, and which would give us $130,000 a year more of subsidy. I cannot underatand why the population of Newfoundland ahould be taken at 130,000, when all the other pio- vincea — moat of them, at all eventa, increaaing in population much more rapidly than New foundland — go in with the population ascer tained by the cenaus of 1861. Hon. Mr. CAMPBELL— The reason is just this, that there happened to be no census taken in Newfoundland in 1861. The last censua there waa sorae yeara before—I think in 1857. The estimated increase, if I recol lect rightly, waa baaed on the increaae which had taken place during the period between the previoua censua and that of 1857; and, taking that ratio of increase, it was found that the population, at the time of the union, would be close upon 130,000. We therefore put it at that figure. Hon. Mr. CURRIE— The honorable gen tleman is right in saying that the laat cenaus of Newfoundland was taken in 1857 ; but the increase should have been reckoned only ibr a period of four years, and I can scarcely be lieve that Newfoundland could be entitled to an increase of 8,000 in ita population in four years, giving to that colony the benefit of four years' increase raore than Canada. Our cenaua waa taken in 1861. Hon. Mr. CAMPBELL— INot at aU; we all go in with the amouuta of our respective populations estimated at the same time ; 130,- 000 was tho estijukated population of New* 342 foundland at that date. We had no desire to give Newfoundland any advantage. Ita popu lation wjis estimated at 130,000 at the time at which the populations of the other provin oes were taken. Hon. Mr. CURRIE— Perhaps the Hon. Commissioner of Crown Lands will inform us whether, in stating the revenues of tbe varioua provincea, the cuatonis revenue raised on goods exported from one province to another was taken into account ? Prince Edward Is land, in 1861, paid euatoma duties amounting to £17,769 sterling; of that, only £11,096 was paid on gooda imported from foreign countries, or countriea other than thoae which, it ia propoaed, ahall form part of thia union ; ao that the people of that island paid only about 70 centa per head in duties on goods brouglit in Iroui countries outside the proposed Confederation. Hon. Mr. CAMPBELL— What do you make tho total customs revenue of Prince Ed ward Island for that year ? Hon. Mr. CURRIE — Seveen teen thousand^ seven hundred and sixty-nine pounds sterling. Great Britain furnished the largest proportion of the imports; then Nova Scotia; then the United States; then New Brunswick. The whole duties, aa I have said, paid on gooda coming from other countriea than the Britiah Provincea, were £11,096, or about two-thirds of the entire customs revenue. Hon. Mr. CAMPBELL— I auppose the person who was probably the beat inforraed about the atate of the revenue in Prince Edward Island, was the Secretary of the Treasury, Hon. Mr. PoPE ; and our eatimate of the revenue of that ialand waa baaed on a printed return whioh Mr. Pope handed round among the membera of the Conference, informing ua what had been the revenue of Prince Edward Island in 1863, and for a series of yeara before 1863. In the same way Hon. Mr. Tilley furnished the statement of revenue for New Brunswick, Dr. Tupper for Nova Scotia, and Hon. Mr. Galt for Canada ; and on these statements furniahed by the Miniaters of Finance for the varioua pro- \incea the estimatea were baaed. I obaerve that the Miniater of Finance, Hon. Mr. Galt, in a speech delivered elsewhere, puts down the total revenue of Prince Edward Island at $197,000, aU of which is from , customs and excise, aave about $32,000. Hon. Mr. ALEXANDER — My hon. friend iVom Niagara (Hon. Mr. Currie) in his own speech stated the revenue of Prince Edward Island at $153,000. Hon. Sir E. P. TACHE then ro.ae to wind up the debate, with a general reply. He said: — ^Hon. gentlemen, I was very anxious that ample opportunity should be given to the members of this Honorable House to express their opinions on the matter which has been for the last two or three weeks under debate. And now as I aee no member disposed to rise, with the view of offering any further remarks, I think the time has come when the debate may be closed, if such is the pleasure of the House. I commenced, hon. gentlemen, to take notes — pretty copious notes — with the view of answering the statements and argu ments of hon. gentlemen who have spoken in opposition to the scheme. But, at the sug gestion of some of my friends, I have taken my pen and crossed out all those notes — (hear, hear) — by way of compromise, if I may so express myself — (laughter) — and iu order that I might not provoke further dis oussion. I hope that this sacrifice of mine — for it is a sacrifice — (laughter) — will be taken in good part, and that the few remarks I have now to make will not be of a nature to provoke any reply. In the first place, I must answer a queation tbat was put to me, I think by my hon. friend from St. Clair Division (Hon. Mr. Vidal). He said he did not understand exactly what I meant by the province being at the top of an inclined plane. It is true that in going over very rapidly the different topica on which I touched, I did not explain that figure very fully. But I stated that the province atood iu a twofold danger — of being dragged violently into the American Union, and, in the next placo, as we stood on an in clined plane, of slipping down gradually, and without our being aware of it, into the vortex below. It seems to me that the thing waa plain enough. Still, aa I am a Frenchman, and cannot express myself in English in the manner I would like, I think I should be aUowed the privUege which ia conceded to per sons belonging to certain foreign nationalities. For inatance, they aay that an Engliahman is aUowed to speak once, an Irishman twice — An Hon. MEMBER- Three times. (Laughter.) Hon. Sir E. P. TACHE— Well, three times be it; that is still better. And a Dutchman as long as he finds it necessary, untU he can make himself understood. WeU, I want to have the privilege aUowed to the Dutchman. (Laughter.) Aa to being drawn violently into the American Union, if thia scheme of Confederation does not take place, it seems to me that that might be a very pro- 348 bable result of our position. Suppose war was declared late in autumn, at the close of na-vi- gation — ^with the little means we have here of defending ourselves, we would be placed for five months in a very disagreeable and trying position, having no opportunity of obtaining the powerful succour of the Mother Country. (Hear, hear.) That must be so easUy under stood, that I shall make no further remark upon it. But, my statement about the pro vince being placed upon an inclined plane may require some little comment and explanation. I say that, if we do not cultivate with our sister provinces — the Maritime Provinces — a close commercial, political, and social inter course — being aU of us British subjects, all of us monarchists, owing allegiance to the same Crovra — if we neglect the cultivation of that intercourse, we run a great danger. We are, in our present position, small, isolated bodies, and it may probably be with us, as in the physical world, where a large body attracts to itself the smaller bodies within the sphere of its influence. If we do not make those aUiances with the Lower Provinces — if we do not open with them those communica^ tions, political, social, and commercial, which are essential for our own interest, we shall little by little lose some of those principles we now esteem so much ; we ahall lose little by little our attachment to the Mother Country, and the interesting reminiscences which, with many of us, now give intensity to that attach ment ; and we shaU become — you may depend upon it, hon. gentlemen — more and more de mocratised, before we are aware of it. (Hear, hear.) Aud really, hon. gentlemen, if I were to form my opinion by some of the speeches which we have heard in this Honor able House since this debate was opened, I think there are some "hon. gentlemen who, from the way in which they have expresaed themaelvea, raight be suppoaed to be — although I hope in reality they are not — already half way down the inclined plane. (Hear, hear and laughter.) Well, hon. gentlemen, I say that if we want to avoid that, we must have a Federal union with our fellow-subjects of the British Provinoes, and that besides we must have easy means of access to the sea board, so that, in caae of danger, help can be immediately forwarded to Canada and to all parts of this Federal union, and that, we may have a powerful army of Great Britain coming here as an auxUiary to the defence whieh I hope we shall be able to make ourselves. (Hear, hear.; An honorable gentleman has stated that I expressed myself to the effect that, if this Confederation did not take place, Canada could not become prosperous. I never said anything of the kind. I said expressly the contrary. Perhaps I may not precisely apprehend the meaning of the word " pros perous." But I said this, that Canada had within itself all the means to become popul ous, to become wealthy, to become a great people. But on the other hand, I said that Canada and the other British American Pro vinces, without union, could not become a " powerful," as distinguished from a pros perous people. I said that we in Canada could not become a powerful people unless we had some maritime elements, unless we had the means, by having harbors and ports of our own open at ail seasons, of communicating freely with all the nations of the world. (Hear, hear.) That is what I said. I never stated that Canada could not become proaper- oua, make money, and so forth. No ; I think Canada can do that; but Canada, even though ita population should reach forty n alliens — which it may in a century hence — can never be a powerful nation, unless its power ia felt all over the world ; and how can ita power be so felt, unleaa it haa ita aeaporta open all the year round ? (Hear, hear.) And I aaid — " Point out to me the nation in thia world which is powerful, that has not some maritime elements." I say there is no one in tha world. Every nation whose power has been felt over the globe, has been a nation tbat had some maritime outlet. But Canada, situated as it ia, is in great want or' free ac cess to the sea; and, aa long aa we are ahut up, during five montha of the yetir. without being able to communicate with tho reat of the world — for, notwithatanding our fine river, we cannot iio said to have a real mari time element- — we are in truth a dependent people. (Hear, hear.) I have some notes in French, made with the intention of answering honorable gentlemen wbo spoke in that lan guage ; but I think, having commenced, that 1 wiU go on in Engliah. It has been asked by aeveral honorable gentlemen how we were to make proviaion for tbe protection of the min orities in Upper and Lower Canada respec tively. We have in Upper Canada a Catho lic minority, in Lower Canada a Protestant minority. Well, thoae minoritiea (.re now in possession of certain rights ; and, if we were not to legislate at all upon tbose lights, my interpretation of the scheme is, that they would still, under tbe local governments, en joy the rights which they now possess. But it has been provided that, if necestary, addi- 3U tional protection shall be afforded ; and in that case, I say, without hesitation, that what wiU be done fbr one portion of the country will alao be done for the other portions — -justice igale distributive. Hear, hear.) Honorable gentlemen have said that we have merely subraitted the general scheme of the Gov ernment, and they have called upon us to give details — details about tbe School bill, details about the local governments, and the imraense string of other details em- braced in the amendment moved the other day by my hon. friend from GrandvUle (Hon.^Mr. Letellier de St. Just), which I am sure was at least a fathom long, and a very long fathom too. (Laughter.) Now, suppose we had aU these mattera before ua, could we really digeat such a masa of inforraation aa hon. gentleraen have aaked for ? It seems to me it would bo like introducing liquids into a veasel whoae mouth is very araall ; if you throw in the liquid rapidly and in two great quantities, the vessel wUl be overflowed, and the fluid won't be got into it. I think we have enough before ua at preaent, when we have the principal matter, without the aocessoriea. For, what would be the use of the acoeaaories if you reject the principle ? (Hear, hear.) Depend upon it, as aoon aa theae resolutions are concurred in, then the detaila will be given one after the other ; and I trust they will be of such a nature aa to meet with the approval of the majority of thia Honorable Houae. (Hear, hear.) Some hon. gentlemen have told us that this was not a Federal union — that the project before you, hon. gentlemen, was in poiot of fact a project for a Legialative union. One hon. gentleman who took this view read the 29th aection, in order to ahew that the General Government, if it chose, could repeal any of the local acta of the different local legialaturea — that the General Government, for instance, could do away with our religious and benevolent corporations, or deprive them of their property. I think the honorable gentleman muat have been rather short-aighted when ho read the 29th resolution, fbr he omitted a very important part of it; and, if he had not omitted that part, I do not think he would have said that this Federal seh me was really a scherae for a Legislative union.' I have no doubt my honorable friend'acted 'in good faith ;'butr being' rather shortsighted, hedid not read the wholecl.ause ; otherwise he muat 'teive arrived at ' a -different conokision-. - The 29th section stiys : "« Thfe- General ParUamebt^ ahaU l.ave 'power- to makeL'law,s-'fo?j the' 'peace, W61f&te'2.aM'"'g6Dd govemment of tho Federated Provinces (sav ing the sovereignty of England), and especial ly laws reapecting the following subjects." Then follows a list of all tbe subjects com mitted to the General Government. But the resolution does not finish there. There is somethina; that comes after all that, and it is this : " And generally respecting all matters of a general character, not specially and ex clusively reserved fbr the local governments and legislatures." Now I would ask honor able gentlemen if an act incorporating a re ligioua body or benevolent society here in Lower Canada is a aubject of a general char acter ; ia it not a aubject purely local ? (Hear, hear.) Take, for instance, the sistera of charity. Could tbe General Government, under this clause, interfere with the privileges of those ladies ? I say they could not. I suppose the honorable gentleman who used the arguraent advanced it conscientiously and in good faith. But I think it is quite evident from a reading of the reaolution that, if Con federation takea place, the General Government wiU havo no power to interfere with such mat tera. (Hear, hear.) I muat aay positively, if I am competent to draw any conclusion at all from what I read, that tho General Gov ernment will have no right to meddle at aU with those religioua and benevolent corpora tions, none in the world. (Hear, hear.) Remarka have alao been made about the lawa of divorce and marriage, and the honorable member.^r the diviaion of DeLanaudifere (Hon. Mr>0u:viER) told us that the Con ference had don^well in transferring the power of divorce to the General Government. On hia part, I think thia waa a wiae view of the question, and I am glad to have the oppor tunity of now telling him so. He waa, how ever, very uneaay about the word " marriage." Well, I will try to put him right and at hia eaae on that point; and I wUl give him the answer as I find it put down in writing, so that no possible misunderstanding may con tinue to exist. If the honorable gentleman will but take his pen, he will be able to note my answer :— " The word ' marriage' has been it^serted to give the General Legislature the right to decide what form of marriage will be legal in all parts of the Confederation, without in any Way intOrfering' With tte "rules and' prescriptTious of the Chui-ch to wftich the'con-' tracting plirties belong'."''-' Another honorable ' • gehtlemah-^I think th'e honorable meinbe'r' for' ' DeLorimver (Hon, Mr. BUreIu)— askeil me if the General Go-vei-niueht would be respon- Mw^oT*'%&'dkm'\(mmiM iftik^"' 345 prior to the Federal union ? .1 replied " Yes, the General Government would be liable for aU the debts contracted before this date." " But," says he, " there are certain sums above the sixty-two and a half mil lions of dollars whicii will have to be settled as between Upper and Lower Canada. And what wUl become of the amount due to the seigniors ? It may be that Lower Canada will repudiate that portion of the debt so allotted her." WeU, I reply. Lower Canada cannot do that, if she were disposed to do so ; but I do not believe that Lower Canada would be disposed to repudiate a debt which she has herself contracted — a debt of honor — a debt which is, as it were, sacred. But even if Lower Canada were disposed to do so, the General Government are liable for tbe amount of that debt ; and as the General Governraent has to give to Lower Canada a subsidy of 80 cents per head, it would, of course, take very good care to substract from tbe amount aUotted to Lower Canada the interest which is to be paid to the seigniors. (Hear, hear.) So that on that score — I do not know if the hon. gentleman is himself a seignior or not, but he seeins to take a great interest in the seig niors — the hon. member need not be uneasy at all. Hon. Mr. bureau — What I stated was, that under the authority of a public act, special appropriations have been made fbr the redemption of tbe debt due to the seigniors, and that the putting aside of that act I consider an act of repudiation. Then, for the sake of argument I stated thia, that you are ahewing an example of repudiation. But I added that if you were going to pay to Lower Canada whit you state, for her Local Governraent ; in the event of her refuaing to pay the seig niors, probably the General Government would retain suflicient from the 80 cents per head apportionment for that purpose. I do not wiah to puah the arg-ument further ; and I may state that it was only for the sake of argument that I advanced the proposition. Hon. Sir E. P. TACHlS- No law has been repealed — no repudiation taken place. The seignors, as it appears to me — I may not have understood the law, for I am no lawyer — will have addititional security. That, it seems to me, is a plain fact. (Hear, hear.) Then the hon. member from DeLorimier found a great deal of fault with the manner — I must say the able manner in whioh the gaUant Kniyht (Hoo. Sir N. F. Belleau) explained the action of responsible government in this country. The honorable Knight shewed how 45 responsible government protected the French Catholics in Lower Canada under Confeder ation, saying that if ever an act of flagrant injustice was to be attempted in the Federal Government, the whole of the Lower Canadians would join as one man, and by uniting with the minority agaiust the Government — be cause honorable gentlemen must know that there always will be minorities — by means of thus strengthening the minority any Admin istration could be ousted out of their places in twenty-four hours. My honorable friend stated this, and he stated it justly ; he said so, well aware of what he was saying. But the honorable gentleraan from DeLorimier comes forward and says: " Don't you recol lect that at one time the Upper Canadians, with the minority from Lower Canada, united to impose upon Lower Canada their will?" I tell you, honorable gentlemen, that they never did b-arm to Lower Canada, and tbat they never could do harm to Lower Canada had they so chosen. And why ? The French had tbe uae of their own language conceded to them in order to bring them to aupport tho Government, and much more would have been done to accompliah the aame end. I am re- feiring now to the Government of the day from 1844 to 1848. That Government would have given you, what was passed afterwards, an act to aecure to the aufferers the payment of their losses, the Rebellion Losses Bill. — They would have given every shilling of those losses, and they would have given you more if you would have consented to become their foUowera. The honorable gentleman made out no caae at all, and he could not have studied parliamentary history since 1841 cor rectly. Had he done so, he would have found that at that period what was called responsi ble government was not worked out. Sir Charles Bagot, it is true, had lent himself to the views of his advisers, and responsible government had been going on perfectly un der him ; but then he died here, and honora ble gentlemen must understand that Lord Metcalp was opposed to responsible gov ernment. Hon. Mr. BUREAU— Still we had re sponsible government. Hon. Sir E. P. TACHE— You had it in name only, but not in practice ; otherwise Hou. Mr. Baldwin and Hon. Mr. Lafontaine would never have left the Cabinet. They re signed their seats in Council because they held themselves responsible to Parliament, while Lord Metcalf chose to appoint persons to office without consulting them, as his constitutional 346 advisers. Well, then, I assert that the case the honorable gentleman has cited to show that my honorable friend on the other side was wrong, is no case at all. It is not appli cable in any respect to present circumstances, because, I repeat it again, we had not respon sible government at that time. Hon. Mr. BUREAU— We have not r esponsible government yet, then. Hon. Sir E. P. TACHE— How does the honorable gentleman make that out ? Hon. Mr. BUREAU— The honorable gen tleman haa stated that since the death of Lord Bagot we have not had reaponaible government. Hon. Sir E. P. TACHE— The honorable gentleman cannot surely have understood me. I think I said that under Lord Metcalf there was reaponaible government in name but not in deed. And if the honorable gentle man will atudy our parliamentary hiatory a little cloaer, he will admit that auch waa the case. Tbe consequence was, as I have already stated, the resign ation of Hon. Messrs. Lafon taine and Baldwin. StUl the Lower Cana dian party was unbroken. It is true the new advisers of Lord Metoalf coquetted much with that majoritjr to obtain adhesion ; but it was in vain. They remained firm to the last, until the general election of 1848 brought back the parties to Parliament in much about their natural strength. I have already stated that I have destroyed my notes, and I am ready to await the verdict of this honorable House. (Applause.) Hon. Mr. VIDAL said — Honorable gentle men, as I consider it my duty to vote for the motion now before the House, I think it desirable to clear myself from the imputation of inconsistency in having supported tho amendments which have been proposed, and which the House has rejected. I may state that my views as to the desirableness of sub mitting the question to the people are un changed ; the plan has been voted down, but no argument has been adduced to demonstrate that it was wrong in principle, or likely to destroy the soheme. I have previously expressed my general approval ofthe Confederation, and that my desire was to secure its permanency by haying its foundation broad and deep in the expressed approval of the people. Submission of the proposal to them has been refused, and the only question now for me to decide is whether I should accept the scheme as it is, or vote for its rejection altogether. Under these circumstances, I have no difficulty in deciding that I must support the motion for its adoption. (Hear, hear.) The question wag then put on the main motion, which was carried on the following division : — Contents. — Honorable Messieuia Alexander, Allan, Armand, Sir N P. Belleau, Bennett, Fer gusson Blair, Blake, Boulton, Bosse, Bull. Burn ham, Campbell, Chnstie, Crawford, De Beaujeu, Dickson, A. J. Duchesnay, E. H. J. Duchesnay, Dumouchel, Ferrier, Foster, Gingras, Guevre mont, Hainilton (Inkerman), Hamilton (King ston), Lacoste, Leonard, Lealie, McCrea, Mc Donald, McMaster, Macpherson, Matheson, Milla, Panet, Price, Read, fienaud, Rosa, Ryan, Shaw, Skead, Sir B. P. Tach^, Vidal, and Wilson —45. NoN-CoNTENTa.' — Honorable Messieurs Aikins, Archambault, Armstrong, Bureau, Chaffers, Cur rie, Flint, Letellier de St. Just, Malhiot, Moore, Olivier, ProuLx, Reesor, Seymour, and Simpson. —1.5. Hon. Sir E. P. TACHE moved, seconded by Hon. Mr. Fergusson Blair, that a select committee be appointed to draft an Address founded on the said resolution, and that the committee be composed of Honorable Messrs. Campbell, Fergusson Blair, Ross, Chris tie, Sir N. F. Belleau, and the Mover. — Carried. The House adjourned during pleasure ; and on resuming, Hon. Sir E. P. TACHE reported the Ad dress, and moved, seconded by Hon. Mr. Fer gusson Blair, that it be agreed to. — Carried. It was then ordered that the Address be engrossed, signed by the Speaker, and pre sented to His Excellency the Governor Gen eral by the whole House. It was also ordered that such members of the Executive Council as are members of this House, do wait on Hia Excellency the Governor General, to know what time His Excellency will please to appoint to be attended with the said Address. The House then adjourned. LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY. Monday, February 20, 1865. Mr. JOLY said— Mr. Speaker, when it ia propoaed to change the Constitution of the oountry, it becomea our duty to atudy with the greatest care, and from every dia- tinct point of view, the new Constitution which it is proposed to subatitute for the existing one; and in doing ao we ought not to disdain the experience of past ages 34>7 History is the statesman's safest guide ; it ought to be the basis of all his conceptions ; indeed it would be treating its lessons with contempt, were we to attempt to dispoae of the future without firat knowing how Provi dence haa diapoaed of the paat. To make use of a maxim, common, but yet most truth ful : " There is nothing new under the sun;" the history of the world is a constantly revolving acene ; the same events pass and repaaa before our eyea under aapects varied enough, it is true, to deceive the superficial observer, but the man who thinks and investigates will have no difficulty in dis covering that at all periods of the world's history, men have allowed themselves to be controlled by the same motives and passions, and will arrive at the inevitable conclusion that like causes produce like effects. The honorable ministers who have unfolded to us the scheme of Confederation have based all their argumenta on the future ; they have tried to prophecy, but for them ttie history of the paat ia a dead letter. Before attempting to predict the fate of our future Confederation, they should firat have told ua what had been the fate of paat confeder ations. It doea not auffice to paint a aplendid picture of grandeur and proaperity ; let it firat be aacertained that the foundationa on which the edifice is to be erected are sure and proved, and that established, we may then begin to build with safety. As has been said by one of the great professors of political science : " The wisdom of a states man is the result of experience and not of theory." I am by no means astonished, however, at the repugnance evinced by the advocates of Confederation to make allusion to the past. The Miniater of Agriculture alone iiaa had the courage to open the volume of the world'a hiatory, and he haatily closed it with the significant remark, especi ally so falling from his lips : — In all the constitutiona in which the Federal principle has been adopted, it cannot be denied that the same fatal vice is to be discerned — the weakneaa ofthe central authority. Thia haa been the fatal disease in all confederations of which I have heard, or whoae hiatories I have read. They have died of consumption. What the Government has not been willing to do, I now propose to do. Let us take counsel of those nations which have adopted federative constitutions, and may the recital of their unhappy experience be of use to us by placing us on our guard against the same dangers. I propose to cast a brief glance on the history of each Confederation. I do not propose to lay before you my own views, and ask you to adopt them, but rather those of men of eminence, who have made the art of good government the study of their lives. I shall indeed make use, as nearly as I possibly- can, of the very language which they have used. Lord Brougham, who is listened to with profound respect in the Imperial Parliament, thua expresses his views iu the third part of his work on Political Philosophy : — Besides the other defects of the Federal union, its manifest tendency to create mutual estrange ment, aud even hostility, between the different parts of the same nation, is an insuperable objec tion to it. And further on he adds: — Whoever would see further proofs of thia posi tion, may he referred to the ancient common wealths of Greece. As a Florentine hated a Sieuneae worae than a German or a Spaniard, or even an infidel, in modern times, so of old did an Athenian hale a Spartan or a Theban worse than a Persian. Now, the Federal union, by keeping up a line of separation among its members, givea the freeat scope to theae pernicious prejudicea — feelinga which it is the highest duty of all govern ments to eradicate, because they lead directly to confusion and war. Paaaing from the confederacies of Greece and Italy to those of the Seven United Pro vincea (now Holland and Belgium), we there find the aame atate of thinga. Lot ua hear what Lord Macaulay says in the first volume of his History o/ England : — The union of Utrecht, hastily established amid the throes of a revolution, with the view of pro viding for the exigencies of the moment, had never baen considered with calmness, nor brought to perfection iu a period of tranquillity. Bach one of the Seven Provinces, which thia union bound together in one cluster, retained nearly all the rights of sovereignty, and exacted from the Federal Government the niost absolute respect of ita rights. Aa the Federal authoritiea had no means of enforcing prompt obedience from the Provincial authorities, ao these latter were equally powerleaa as regarded the Municipal authorities. The advocates of Confederation take pleasure in citing the result of tbe Swiss (or Helvetic) Confederacy as an exception to the disas trous fate awaiting all confederations; but Switzerland possesaea all the germs of this fatal malady, as witness the civil and reli gious war of the Sonderbund. Here, how ever, the symptoms are less violent than in other coufedorations, on account of its 348 exceptional poaition; France, Pruaaia and Auatria are deeply interested in raaintainiag ttie existence of Switzerland aa a neutral and independo'it state — it ia indiapenaable to their safety. Were it not so, the laat hour ofthe Helvetic Confederacy would have sounded long ago. If we pasa from the confeder- ationa of the old world to thoae of the new, we ahall find that the climate of .Ame rica appeara to be atill raore fatal to confed erations than that of Europe. Let ua begin with the Central American Confederacy or Republic of Guatemala. It waa establiahed in 1821, and was composed of five atatea : Guatemala, Honduraa, San Salvador, Nica ragua, and Coata Rica, In 1829, that is to say, after an interval of eighteen years only, Honduras set the example by seceding from the Confederation, EU example which was very soon followed by the four other states, and that Confederation haa ceased to exiat, after a brief existence, in the midat of revolu- tiona and civil wara. The Confederation of Columbia waa formed in 1819 of the twelve provinces freed by Bolivar from the dominion of Spain. After endleaa troubles and revo- lutiona, they aeparated in 1831 (after an exiatence of 12 yepra) into three indepen dent republics, tliough reunited under the name of Confederation of the United atatea of South Amerira— New Grenada, Venezuela and Ecuador. I hold in my hand a rulume ofthe Amtunire def D'-ux Momies^, eootaiiiing a general history of the different states during the yeara 1S53 and 18 j4. I will not occupy the tirae of the Houae by enterin.' into th/ detaila ofthat history; I shall epito mize it hy reading a few lit.es fr.ira the table of coptentH, in which we find raention made ofthe principal eventa in the raost auccioct forra. I read frora this table as follow,s : — " Venezuela — General condition of Vene zuela — Inaurrection of 1853 — Insurrection of 1854," One per annum, one would aoon become used to inaurrectiona aud think but little of them in that haopy couutry. " Co;o- pulsory Loans " — I auppose one raay get uaed to theae opei-ationa in coarse of time, however diaagreeable they may be. At all events, if mattera turn out well with the coiu- pulaory borrowers, aa I have no doubt tbey do, they do not leave enough to their compulaory oreditora to make it worth their while to renew the operation annu ally, and thus we aee that compulaory loana are not effected every year in Venezuela with the same regularity in whioh tbe insur rections there are carried out. " New Grenada — movements of parties;" I augur nothing good from this movement. " The Golgothas and Draconians" — probably the liberals and conservatives, who have had the singular taste to assume theae villainous titles and who discuaa tbe queation of tho day by musketry practice — "struggles of parties and threats of military revolution; moveraent of 17th April." Still another movement — " uprising of the Provinces;" — here, at all events, we have an unmistakable movement, aa to the nature of which there can be no doubt whatever. " Preaent state of the civil war." — InNew Grenadacivil war figurea in tbe quotations juat aa in Canada; we quote transactions in flour or lumber ; it is their normal condition. I bear an honorable member exclaim " Oh, but they are savages !" They are not savage.s ; but I am free to con fess they behave like savages. This is but the ordinary effect of civil war ; as witneaa wb-at ia paaaing amongat our neighbora in the United Statea. But let ua proceed to another confederation. Bjlivia and Lower Peru formed theraaelves into a, Confederacy in 1836. Thia Confederacy waa born and lived and died, thy whole in three yeara, between 1836 and 1839, hardly allowing tirae to begin to write ita hiatory. Next we have the confederation of the United Pro vinces of Rio de la Plata or Argentine Re public, eatablished in 1816, by the union of fourteen independent provincea. Bouillet, after having refened to the promulgation of the new Constitution, continues in the follow- iog terma : — This Constitution, however, does not prevent the united provinces of Rio dj la Plata from being a prey to anarchy. The federalists and the anti-federalists are continually at war. Manufac tures 1 here are none ; and the trade is very limited. In that same table of contents of the An- nuaire des Deux Mondes, I read * * * "Civil war and raising of the siege of Buenos Ayrea — separate Conatitution lor Buenoa Ayrea * * * --Struggle between tbe parties, and financial di-tresa — Diaturbance (echauffouree) of tho 18 th July 1853." I auppoae this word meana something half-way between a movement and an inaurrection, "Revolution ofthe 25th Sep tember." -Eventa succeed each other rapid ly. " Civil war — Intervention of Brazil," But all thia pasaed ia 1853 and 1854. It is ancient history. Let ua look at a few jour- nala of laat week or the week before. What do we find ? Here ia a specimen or two : "The President of San Salvador in his speech at the opening of the House defends 349 himself indignantly against the imputation of a wish to annex Central America to Mexico;" or take another article; " Hostili ties have recommenced between the Erapire of Brazil and the Republic of Uraguay," one of the States of the Argentine Confedera tion. " Paraguay, an ally of Uraguay, has also declared war against Brazil. The latter is assisted by the revolutionary party in Ura guay, under the ordera of General Florea, A Brazilian fleet aaaiated by General Flores and the revolutionists of Uraguay, has burned Paysandu, the capital of Uraguay * * * ao that Uraguay ia torn at the aame time by civil war and a foreign war." Thia is a lament able state of affaira ! How prudently minis ters have acted in omitting all mention of these sad scenes, in asking us to vote for Confederation 1 They would have spoiled their brilliant picture by too great a depth of shadow. Passy, in his MSmoire sur les formes de Gouvernement et les causes qui les d'eterminent, {3Iemoires de I' Institut, Sciences morales et poVtiques, 2e serie, vol. 3,) ex presses himself as followa, apeaking of all these South Ameiioaa Confederationa : Seldom doea a year pasa, without freah rebel lioua breaking out among them ; very seldom do the heads ofthe governments reach the legal term of their functiona. The preaidentahips are ephe meral dictatorships, the prize of generals who, exiles one day, are at the head of armies the next, while the states themselves aometimes confeder ate, agaia independent, are constantly changing their forma of government and their aspect. Pabst assigns two main cauaes for these occurrences. The absence of homogeneity or common origin, and the want of know ledge. As to this want of knowledge, I must obaerve that there are few nations in the worid, if any, the population of which is generally as enlightened as that ofthe United States of North America, and yet, at thia very time, we see the dogs of civil war let loose among them and raging as fiercely as ever they did among the confederate govern ments of South America. As to the abaence of homogeneity talked of by Passy, if it exiata to such an extent aa to lead to these sad results among the confeder ations of South America, in which all the citizens are, without exception. Catholics, speaking the same language, and who all within a few years fought side by side against their common enemy, Spain, to achieve their liberty,-:— if they are deficient, I say, in homogeneity, what is the ease with us I Protestants and Catholics, French, English and Irish speaking two different languages. The strongest bond of union among the citizens of a state is a community of language and religion. We have neither in common. The confederations of South America have both, and yet, as Passy says, they have not sufficient homogeneity to afford a hope that they can ever live in peace under a federal regime. Mexico was constituted a Confeder ation in 1824. In 1837 it was united, and the union subsisted till 1846, except three years of dictatorship. In 1846 the Federal principle again prevailed, but disappeared in 1853, aince whicb period the hiatory of Mexico is too generally known to need re petition in this place. It is written with the blood of its citizens. I shall merely mention the United States of North Araerica. I do not pretend — I do not poaaeaa the ability — to trace out the real aourcea of the im menae civil war by which they are now rent in piecea. Enough for me to aay, that no body ia to consider alavery as the only cause of the civil strife, .^lore than thirty years ago upon a question of tariff which went to protect the manufacturers of the North at the expense of the planters of the South, South Carolina aounded the aignal of inaurrection, aa ahe aince did in 186 1 ; and had it not been for the firmneaa of General Jaokson, who overstepped hia powers to aave hia country, the civil conteat would have commenced at that time. It waa sure to come on ; it was only delayed for a while. Theae were all trials of the Confederate syatem. Mr. CORNELLIER— All the confeder ations which you bave mentioned were or are republican, and had the comraon fate of republican institutiona. You have not said a word about monarchical confederations. Mr. JOLY — 1 have made no mention of monarchical confederations, because none have ever existed, and none can exist. The principle of a monarchy is that the power resides in one person; the principle of con federation is that it resides in all the mem bers of the confedeiation. A confederation would, therefore, always be a republic, even if formed of several states subject to a mon archy; because tbe power would not be vested in one peraon, but in each of the several states, of which no one would acknowledge a head ; it would be a republic consisting of a very small number of raeui- bers. Before I take leave of all the confe derations, the names of which I have men tioned, I intend to say one word, at least, in their favor. We understand that states 350 perfectly independent of one another, and not subject to any authority bearing equally on them all, may have agreed (notwithstand ing the inconveniences of confederation) to become confederate for the purpose of strengthening themaelvea to reaiat a common enemy. So much they raay have done. But we do not underatand how provinces like ours, which have no existence independent of each other, but are all subject to the same authority, need have recourse to confeder ation for the purpoae of cementing a union which already exista. Confederation, by marking more strongly the lines of demar cation between them, spoken of by Lord Brougham, renders any more intimate con nection between them for the ftiture impoa sible. We are like bars of iron strongly welded together, which men should try to unite more strongly to each other by tearing them asunder to reunite them with shoe maker's paste. Some wiU answer, " True ! the Federal principle haa always and in every caae proved a failure, but the cauae lay in the weakneas of the central power. We shaU obviate that inconvenience, by establish ing a central power strong enough to pre serve our Confederation from that danger." But then it will be no longer a Confeder ation ; it will be a legialative union — h union which the moat zealoua advocatea of Confe deration reject aa incompatible with the varioua interests of the different provinces. If you succeed in establishing thia central power, with strength enough to bear away over the local powera, the latter will uo longer have an exclusive existence ; they will become the authorized delegatea of the central power, their officera and every veatige of confederation will disappear from your Conatitution. If you abaolutely resolve to adopt the Federal principle, you cannot do it without adopting at the same tirae all ita inconvenienoea. The weakneaa of the central power ia not the fruit of the Federal system; it ia its root, it is itself Thia ia the reaaon why atatea which are perfectly independent of each other, adopt the Federal principle solely aa a means of defence againat foreigners, because the central power in a confederation cannot be other than weak. We already possess, under our present Con stitution, and without confederation, a central power stronger than any power which you can create, and to which wo submit without complaint, because it is perfectly compatible -with the existence of our local powers — I mean the power of England. It is exercised by men who live too far from us to hearken to the bickerings of race or of party, or to be mixed up with them in any way. But if that central power was wielded by men taken from among ourselves, men who have taken part in our quarrels and animoailies, and who would make use of it to give effect to the views of their party, it would become in supportable. As it now exists, we feel it only by the benefits it confers. Having thus shown the serious inoonveniences innate in the Federal system, let us see whether there be anything exceptional in our poaition, operating in our favor, and aUow ing ua to hope for iramunity from thoae evUs which have befallen all former confederations. What is our position ? In what respects ia it more favorable than that of other confed erations ? Let us begin with Lower Canada ; its population is composed of about three- fourthfc French-Canadians, and of one-fourth English-Canadians. It is impossible, even for the blindest admirers of the scheme of Confederation, to shut out from their view this great difference of nationality, which is certaioly fated to play an important part in the destinies of the future Confederation. When Lord Durham wrote his celebrated report in 1839, he said, when apeaking of the Engliah-Canadians of Lower Canada :- " The English population will never submit to the authority of a parliament in whieh the French have a majority, or even the semblance of a majority." A little further on, he added :_ — "In the significant language of one of their most eminent men, they assert that Lower Canada must become Eoglish, even if to effect that object it should be necessary that the province should cease to belong to England." Whatever errors Lord Durham may have fallen into in judging the French-Canadians, he certainly cannot be reproached with having shewn too great severity towards the Engliah-Canadians. He raerely depicted their sentiments, as they manifested themselves in his day. Since then, things have undergone a change. And last autumn, at Sherhrooke, the Hon orable Miniater of Finance presented to us a very different picture, when he said : — " For five and twenty years harmony bas reigned in Lower Canada, and the English and French populations have entered into a com pact to labor together to promote the common interests of the country." This picture ia a true one at the present time, as was also 351 that drawn by Lord Durham in his day ; things have changed ! In the Parliament of the United Canadas, the English are in a majority; they have not to deal with a French majority. But, if circumstances have altered, men have not ; place them in the same position in which they were pre vious to 1839, and again you will perceive in them the same sentiments as were depicted by Lord Durham. The seed Ues hid in the soil, it does not .shew itself on the surface ; but a few drops of rain are all tbat is neces aary to cauae it to spring up. If such senti- menta did not exiat between the two nation alities, why this resolution, to be submitted to the Houae by the honorable member fbr Jlissisquoi, which I am now about to read : — Resolved, That assuming the Federal aystem of govemment to be a political necessity in a union of the British North American Provinces, any Confederation of those provinces which ignores the difference of race, language and religion of theinhabitants ofthe respective states or territories sought to be thus uuited, and is not framed with a view to secure to the inhabitants of such slate or territory the management of their own local affairs, in accordance with their own peculiar views and sentimenta, ia unwise and inexpedient, and not conducive to good government or to the peace and tranquillity of those for whom it is framed ; Resolved, That with a view to secure to that portion of the inhabitants cf Lower Canada apeaking the English language, the free exercise and enjeyment of their own ideas, institutions and rights, in any proposed Confederation of the provinces, Canada should be divided iuto three civil divisions, to wit : Western, Central and Eastem Canada. At the mere idea of a legialature in which the French element ia to be in a majority iu Lower Canada, the paaaiona described by Lord DuRHA.-\i are evinced. It ia true that the Miniatry are doing their beat to reassure both parties, and to each party, separately, they make promises at the expenae of the other. French-Canadians ! do not allow youraelves to be led away by those brilliant promises. An Italian poet deacribea the endeavors ofa mother to induce her child to swallow a draught, which is intended to re store him to health; to tempt him, she covers the edge of the cup with honey ; in like man ner, the edge of the cup which is presented to you has been covered with honey, but in stead of containing ahealth-restoring draught, that cup contains poison and death. I do not believe that the French-Canadians will abuse the power of their majority in Lower Cauada by striving to oppress the English- j Canadians ; but there are too many points on whioh they disagree to allow of their Uving long in peace together, in spite of their sincere wish to do so, under the sys tem of local government wbich ia proposed to us. The Honorable Prime Miniater aaid in the Council : — I believe the Prench-Canadiana will do all in their power to render justice to their fel low-subjecta of English origin ; and it should not be forgotten that, if the lormer are in a majority in Lower Canada, the English will be in a majority in the General Government, and that no act of real injuatice can take place without its being reversed by the Federal Parliament. But who is to decide whether any act of the French-Canadians is really an act of injus tice ? The Federal Parliament, in which the English element will be all-powerful ! In.political matters, a disinterested opinion is but seldom come to ; the sympathies of the majority in the Federal Parliament will be against us ; I see in this the prospect of a position which may prove to be a most dangerous one for us; if the strife should commence, no one can tell when it will end. Dr. BEAUBIEN— I have confidence in the conscience of the Federal Parliament. We ougbt not to attribute evil intentions to men, but rather suppose that they will treat us as tbey desire to be treated themselves, with juatice, and in a conacientioua raanner. Mr. JOLY — -Despite the honorable mem ber's sermon — I beg his pardon, I mean despite the honorable member's observation — I am of opinion that we ought not to leave interesta ao precioua aa those which are con fided to ua to the mercy of men with whom we are not alwaya certain of living on good terms, without any other guarantee than their conscience. Confederation, by changing the state of things which establiahed harmony between the Engliah and French races in Lower Canada, will deatroy that harmony, and the consequences may be only too easily foreseen. In Upper Canada there is much more homogeneity, and, by coasequence, the danger of intestine trouble there is much less great ; true it is, that the enormous power of the Orangemen and the law respecting sepa rate schools may give rise to difficulties, but' I fear more for the relations of Upper Ca-^iada with the other provinces, and especially the Atlantic Provinces. Upper Canada objects, in general terras, to the construction of the Intercolonial Railway. Its wish is to see the resources of the future Confederation applied to opening up the immense territory ofthe North-West, and to the enlargement 352 of its canals. The Atlantic Provinces desire the Intercolonial Railway ; but they hold in dread the expenditure which would be en tailed by the opening up of the North-West territory aud the enlargement of the canals. Upper Canada already feara leat the Atlantic Provincea ahould unite with J ,ower Canada against her ; the French-Canadians fear for their nationality, threatened by the Engliah majority from the other provincea, and yet Confederation so far only exists aa a scheme. If our relations with the other provinces are not at preaent very intimate, at leaat there ia nothing hoatile in them. We regard them with intereat and frieudahip aa merabers of one and the aame family with ourselvea We all grow together under the shelter of the Engliah flag, and in caae of war with the United Statea, we are all ready to unite in our efforts, in good faith, for our coramon de fence. But when the different provincea ahall meet together in the Federal Parliament aa on a field of battle, when they have there contracted the habit of contending with each other to cauae their own intereata, so varioua and so incompatible with each other, to prevail, and when, from repetition of thia undying atrife, jealousy and inevitable hatred ahall have reaulted, our aentimenta towarda the other provincea will be no longer the same ; and ahould any great danger, in whieh our safety would depend upon our united condition, ariae, it would then per hapa be found that our Federal union had been the aignal for our diaunion. In auch a poaition the greateat danger would reault from the neighborhood of the United Statea, a nation which for a long time haa looked on our piovinoea with a covetoua eye, and which has an immenae army which the end of the war, probably not far diatant, will leave without occupation. They will follow up our political atrugglea closely, will en courage th: diaoontented, and wUI aoon find an opportunity for interfering in our internal affaira, being called in by the weaker party; history ia full of similar occurrencea. The Attorney General for Lower Canada pretenda that the opponenta of Confederation deaire annexation to the United Statea. I find it difficult to believe in hia ainccrity when he expreaaea that opinion ; itia uaually by auch arguments as thia that he repliea to hia opponenta when he has no other answer to make th-^m. One ofthe moat justly reapect ed men in Lower Canada, a man who enjoya univeraal esteem, Mr. Cherrier, who had I long withdrawn from public life, determined, despite his repugnance to entering the lists, to raiae his voice in order to warn hia fellow- countrymen againat the dangers of the Con federation project. The purity of his motives could not be questioned ; being connected with no political party, he waa perfectly diainterested iu the courae he took. It appeara to me that the opinion of such a man deaerved at least a respectful hearing. Inatead of answering his argument, the honorable the Attorney General attempted to make him the laughing stock of thia House. The Government stifles the voice of thoae wbo wiah to enlighten the people; but it takea upon itaelf the taak of enlight ening them. Here is a work "in favor of Confederation," published in 1865, entitled : L' Union des Provinc s de I' Amdrique JBri- tannique du Nord, par V Hon. Joseph Cau chon, memhre de Parlement Canadien, et Redacteur en-chef du Journal de Quebec; and alao author ofa work publiahedin 1858, " againat Confederation." If the Govern ment were generoua, they would distribute the work of 1858 at the same tirae with that of 1865, in order to afford to every one the •advantage of a choice, more partioul rly aa tho honorable author cannot be right in both. In bringing these two worka into contraat, I do not wiah to make a personal attack oa the honorable member ; the fact that he first wrote againat Confederation and then iu favor of it, ia perfectly foreign to the debate. I ahould not have mentioned the matter, were it not that the Governraent make use of the work of 1865 (the aecond) iu order to propagate iu every direction their doctrinea on Confederation ; they are diatributing tlouaands of copiea of the work throughout Lower Canada, and in order to influence the English-apeaking population, they are having it translated into Engliah. [t is, therefore, right to warn the people that they muat diatruat the ar^iumcnta contained in that book ; they are diametrically oppoaed to the opiniona enunciated by the author in hia work of 1858, in which he says, in express terms, that the conaequencea of Confederation would be the ruin of Lower Canada. Of courae the author, in hia work of 1865, attempta to explain his change uf opiaion ; it ia none the leaa true that he waa wrong either in 1858 or elae in 1865— which ? It may be aaid in behalf of the book of ]8(i5 that it is four times thicker than the other ; this perhapa may seem a disadvantage to the 353 minds of some readers. The Government, knowing well how much the people fear direct taxes, tell them that Confederation involves them in no such risk. What new method are they going to invent then for raising money ? It is perfectly clear that Confederation will largely increase our ex penditure. Then, for instance, Canada, which has now but' one Government to maintain (and it is as much as she can do to maintain it), will have three to maintain, or nearly so : the Government of Upper Cana da, the Government of Lower Canada, and nine-twelfths of the Federal Government ; it will be the same as regards the legisla tures. Canada, with a population forming nine-twelfths ofthe Confederation, will have to build nine-twelfths of the Intercolonial Railway, in place of the five-twelfths she was to have been charged with, under the arrangements of 1863. With reference to the opening of the all but boundless territory of the North-West, and the construction of the fortifications which are spoken of only in whispers as yet, lest we should become alarmed, it is impossible to calculate the expenditure these works will involve. And, in face of this increased expenditure, our chief source of revenue is to be considerably diminished. I refer to the import customs duties. Here is the justification offered by the Minister of Finance for the reduction : — It is evident since the Atlantic Provinces con aume a far larger quantity of articlea paying import dutiea than we do, that we shall be com pelled, in order to assimilate all the customs tariffs, to diminiah the import duties we pay in Canada. The Atlantic Provinces cannot adopt a customs tariff so high as ours. I think I have shown that our expenditure must infallibly increase ; and as our revenue will diminish, to what new tax will the Go vernment have recourse in order to make up the deficit ? We are told that Lower Canada will have a revenue of nearly a million and a half to meet her local expenditure ; with what shall we meet our proportion of the Federal expenditure, which wUl be far lar ger ? But I shall now deal with the advan tages which we are told must certainly result from Confederation. They may be divided into three classes — political, military and commercial. The honorable member for Montmorency tells us that we are to have the advantage of a seat at the banquet of nations. The perspective is a highly flattering one, I admit, but we must be 46 permitted to take a common-sense view of it. The Honorable Minister of Fin ance, faithful to the doctrine that the great ness of a State is proportioned to the great ness of its debt, announces to us that our credit will be considerably increased, and that we shall be enabled to borrow much more extensively than we have hitherto done, a prospect at which he seems greatly to re joice. This faciUty of borrowing is not always an unmixed good ; but it must be remembered that our credit will depend en tirely on the success of our Confederation. If it should not succeed, if any serious dif ficulty should arise within it — a thing which is possible — public opinion wUl be more prompt to take alarm, in that our Federal form of government does not afford strong guarantees for the maintenance of order and peace, and our credit will soon be worth less than the credit of a single province is worth to-day. The Honorable the President of the Council enumerated all our provinces, comparing one after another, as regards su perficial extent, with the great states of Eu rope. He finished with the Hudson's Bay territory, atating that it is as large as Euro pean Russia ; but wUl it ever be capable of supporting, like European Russia, a popula tion of sixty millions, and feeding, with its surplus corn, a great part of Europe ? The vastness of territory in which the honorable minister takes so much pride ia preciaely what inapirea me with uneaainess; we shall have the outward form ofa giant, with the strength of a child ; we shall be unable to stand up. Hasty and premature growth is as fatal to states as it is to men ; a atate should extend its limits only in proportion as its strength in creases. The Roman Empire did not attain in a day its colossal proportions ; its growth, like that of the oak, was slow but sure. Let us not allow ourselvea to be dazzled by the ambition of becoming all at once a great people; the United States are a great people, but where is the people, however small it may be, that now envies their greatness ? Let us be content with our lot ; few nations havo a better one. The territorial formation of the future Federation will also be an insur mountable obstacle to the establishment of a strong government ; it amounts to a deform ity, I give the following passage in support of this proposition : — What may the geographical advantages of the Union be ? We apeak more aa regards the future than aa regarda the present. If the provinces it 354 ia proposed to unite were grouped in a compact maaa as are the majority ofthe states of the Ameri can Union, if their geographical position were such that they needed one another in order to prosper, in order to attain an outlet on the sea, we should aay — here, at all events, is a motive for the sacrifices demanded of us. But no, they are scattered over the surface of the Gulf. The nearest to Canada, New Brunswick, is connected with us solely by a narrow strip of territory at most but a few leagues in width, and bordered throughout by the menacing frontier of the Amer ican Union. And even at this moment, pending the carrying out ofthe worka of improvement we have just referred to, the shortest route from the provinces to Cauada is by way of the United States. While the union of the Canadas -was odious in ita formula, it waa at all events justifi able in a geographical point of view; Upper Canada required the use of the St. Lawrence in order to reach the aea, and the two provincea together form a compact body, a fact whioh is the strongest possible condemnation of the Constitu tional Act of 1791, and on which they were sepa rated.If the readers of the work published by the Hon. Mr. Cauchon, in 1865, in favor of Confederation, deaire to know where I found that paaaage, I anawer, in the work pub lished by the Hon. Mr. Cauchon, in 1858. It is probably the portion of the honorable gentleman's work of 1858, whioh he will find it most difficult to get over. He may, indeed, allege in explanationof his change of opinion on other points, that the poUtical position is altered, that our relations with the provinces and our neighbors ofthe United States are no longer the same; but I apprehend he will hard ly go the length of asserting that the geograph ical configuration of the country is changed. He will perhaps endeavor to show that the Intercolonial Railway, the construction of which forms part of the plan of Confeder ation, will obviate the defects of our geograph ical position ; but I would remind him that in 1858, when he wrote his first work, the building of the Intercolonial Railway was proposed as it is proposed now ; this will ap pear from the passage I have just quoted : " And at this moment, pending the carrying out of the improvements we have just re ferred to, the shortest way to come from the provinces to us is by way of the United States.'' Mr. Speaker, with the best possi ble desire to assist the honorable gentleman, I find it utterly impossible to extricate him from his unfortunate position, and I shall not make the attempt. The Hon. Attorney Gen eral promises us that Lower Canada will be the sun of the Confederation. Since we can not find a comparison on this poor earth em blematic of our future greatness, let us bor row one from the heavens at the risk of losing ourselves in the clouds with the advocates of Confederation ; I propose the adoption of the rainbow, as our emblem. By the endless va riety of its tints the rainbow will give an ex cellent idea of the diversity of races, religions, sentiments and interests of the different parts of the Confederation. By its slender and elongated form, the rainbow would afford a perfect representation of the geographical con figuration of the Confederation. By its lack of consistence — an image without substance —the rainbow would represent aptly the sol idity of our Confederation. An emblem we must have, for every great empire has one ; let us adopt the rainbow. Mr. Speaker, the fact of our provinces being all at once erected into a Confederation will not give us a single additional man ; battalions cannot be made to spring forth from the earth, armed from head to foot, by a stamp of tbe foot as in the mythologioal ages. The Hon. Attorney Gen eral for Lower Canada has developed a plan of strategy which I take the liberty of seri ously recommending to the Commander-in- Chief. The honorable gentleman sums up in the following terms the advantages of the Confederation in a military point of view : " When we shaU be united, the enemy wUl know that if he attacks any part of our provin ces, the Island of Prince Edward or Canada, he will have to meet the combined forces of tho Empire." There was no need of the Confed eration to convince our neighbors of that ; they are, as a general rule, sufficiently sharp- witted to discover, without being told it, that if they content themselves with attacking us at a single point at a time, of course they will have to meet all our strength. Would it not be well to enter into a contract, binding them to attack us at a single point only at one time —say Quebec ? We might, in fact, give them the free use of the Grand Trunk Railway to bring their troops to Point L6vis. Of what benefit to the United States would be their vast armies, their great fleets, their abundant means of transport in every direction, if they were to attack us only at one point at a time, as the Hon. Attorney General seems to hope ? In the war of 1812, they attacked us simul taneously at different points, though their troops were far less numerous in proportion to ours than they would now be in case of war, and though their means of transport were then far inferior to what they now are. Newfoundland, Prince Edward Island, Nova Scotia, New Brunswick and Canada, would 358 be attacked simultaneously, and each province at different points. The provinoes wiU help one another sufficiently if each of them can maintain the integrity of its own territory, so that the enemy may not be enabled to take the adjoining province in flank ; in tbe same way that a soldier in line of battle assists his comrade at his side by simply keeping his own place in the ranks. We do not need Confederation to give us that unity which is indispensable in all military operations — unity of headship. A commander-in-chief wUl direct the defence of all our provinces ; he wUl forward troops, and, if he can, vessels of war, to the points most seriously threat ened, and will assist each province to de fend the post which Providence has al ready assigned to each in our long Une of battle. Moreover, in the event of war with the United States, if we were to trust to num bers we should be sadly disappointed. What we need above all is enthusiasm ; our citizen soldiers must be convinced that they are risk ing their lives for something worth while ; that they are happier in being under the flag of England than they could be under that of the United States, and that tbey must lose by an exchange. In the present position of the United States it is not difficult to make them understand that ; the taxes alone with which the Americans are now crushed down, and of which the vast volume is growing from day to day, suffice to shew, at a first glance, how far our position is superior to theirs in a mar terial point of view. But if, in order to meet the extravagant expenditure the Confedera tion must bring with it, the people find them selves taxed beyond their resources, the Gov emment need not be surprised, if they should ever appeal to the courage of the people and caU upon them to meet the enemy, to receive the answer the old man got from his donkey in Lafontaine's fable. When, at the ap proach of the enemy, the old man wished to mount and fly, the donkey refused to bear him, and commenced the foUowing dialogue with hia master- : — Me fera-t-on porter double bat, double charge ? Non pas, dit le vieillard, qui prit d'abord le large. Et que m'importe done, dit Tane, a qui je sois 7 Sauvez-vous, et me laissez paitre. Notre ennemi, c'est notre maStre, Je vous le dis en bon frangois.* * " On me double burthen do you think they will lay ?" " Not so," said the old man, ere he toddled away, "Then, what odds," cried the donkey, "to whom I belong ? You may take to your heels and leave me to feed. The donkey's real enemy ia hia own master's greed, And I tioet you'll admit that the argument's strong." Lafontaine, it will be seen, found means, two hundred years ago, of saying serious things in a laughing way. If the Government treat the people as a beast of burthen, to be piti lessly overladen, the people wiU one day make them the same answer that the donkey made to his master, in Lafontaine's fable. Lord Bacon, in his essays, expresses the same thought in more serious terms. But apart from purely material interests, which are nevertheless highly important, for happiness and poverty rarely go hand in hand, there are other interests of a higher order which rouse the courage of a people and sometimes render it capable of sustaining the most unequal struggles. Deprive the French Canadians of their nationality, and you deprive them of the enthusiasm which would have doubled their strength. I concur with the Government in their desire to form more intimate commercial relations between the different provinces ; but when it is attempted to use the immense ad vantages which would result from these rela tions as an overwhelming argument iu favor of Confederation, it is as well to form a proper appreciation of those advantages, and see whether we cannot secure them without Con federation. The Gulf Provinces posaeaa tim ber, coal and fiaheriea ; our own two great articles of export are timber and wheat. With regard to timber, the Gulf Prov incea have no more need of ours than we of theirs. As to coal we import from Eng land what we need for our present wants, in ballast, on board the numerous ships wbich come here for our timber, and we thus get it cheaper than we could import it from the Gulf Provinces. When this supply becomes insufficient to meet our growing wants, it wiU be necessary to look somewhere for a supply of coal. If the Lower Provinces can furnish it to us at cheaper rates than we can get it in the United States, we shall buy it from them. Upper Canada will probably get its coal from the Pennsylvania mines, which are in direct communication with Lake Erie, on the north shore of which the richest and most thickly settled portion of Upper Canada is situated. As regards fisheries, Canada has a stock of fish in its waters sufficient not only to supply all its own requirements, but to enable it to export largely from Gasp6 to Europe. Now ' as to wheat. The Honorable President of the CouncU told us that in a single year the At lantic Provinces paid §4,440,000 to the Uni ted States for flour, and that a portion ofthat flour 'came from Upper Canada ; and the hon orable gentleman asks why should not we 356 ourselves sell our flour to the Lower Provin ces ? For the simple reason that, instead of having to pay four miUions four hundred and forty-seven thousand dollars to the United States, they would have to pay us flve millions of dollars, and they would therefore refuse to buy from us. There is no such thing as sen timent in matters of business ; men buy in the cheapest market. The Gulf Provinces will buy their flour from the United States so long as they can obtain it at a lower price there than in Canada ; and the fact that they do obtain it cheaper from the United States is clearly demonstrated by their buying from the Americans and not from us. But a single glance at the map wiU account for the differ ence in price. I do not believe that the In tercolonial Railway can be advantageously employed for the transport of flour from Riviere du Loup to Halifax ; the cost of transport over five hundred miles of raUway would be too great ; the water route must therefore be adopted. Kingston and Halifax are in the same latitude, between the 44th and 45th parallel. From Kingston the St. Lawrence flows undeviatingly towards the north-east, and falls into the Gulf in the 50th degree of north latitude. From that point, in order to reach the Gut of Canso, you must not only make flve degrees of southing, but also make nearly three degrees of longitude to the east, and then nearly three more towards the west before reaching HalU'ax. Moreover, the navi gation is more or less dangerous throughout. When you compare this circuitous route with the far more direct one of the United States, it is quite easy to understand why the United States can sell even our wheat to the Gulf Provinces at lower prices than we ourselves are able to do. I have attempted to reduce the commercial advantages we are promised to their proper proportion. I will now endeavor to show that we can secure every one of these advantages without the Confederation. I shall cite, for that purpose, the very words of the Honorable Minister of Finance : — If we look at the reaults ofthe free interchange of produce between Canada and the United States, we shall find that our trade with them increased, in ten years, from less than two raiUiong to twenty millions of dollara. If free trade haa produced such results in that case,^what may we not expect when the artificial obstacles which hamper free trade between us and the provinces of the Gulf shall have disappeared ? But this fine result was not obtained by means of a Confederation with the United States. What hinders us from having free trade with the Gulf Provinces ? In support of this view, I shaU quote the work of the honorable member for Montmorency, not that of 1858, but that of 1865, -written in favor of Confederation, pages 32 and 33, where he shews in the most conclusive manner that we have no need of Confederation to improve our commercial relations with the Gulf Provinces. It is under tbis head of commercial advan tages that the Intercolonial Railway fitly comes in. The Honorable President of the Council tells us that he is favorable to Con federation, because it wUl give us a seaport at all seasons of the year — a most powerful argument, he adds, in its favor. We stand in great need of a seaport in the winter season, more especially if the United States abolish the right of transit. Absolutely, without reference to that, we require it in order to perfect our system of defence. But is Confederation necessary in order that we may build the Intercolonial Railway ? Certainly not. The hon. minister, in the same speech, gives an answer to the representatives from Upper Canada complaining that the Interco lonial Railway is to be built before any scheme is entertained for opening up the North-West Territory, — " The reason is that the neces sary means of constructing tbe Intercolonial Railway are already secured to us by the guarantee of the Imperial Government, which will enable us to obtain money at a very ad vantageous rate of interest." These means were secured to us a long time since, long before the question of Confederation was agitated. I see also in a report laid before the House in a return to an address moved for last year by the Honorable Minister of Agri culture, that as soon as it became known in England that Mr. FLEMiNa had been ap-, pointed to report upon a plan for the Interco lonial Railway, two offers were at once made for the buUding of it, uncalled for by us. One is contained in Mr. C. D. Archibald's letter of 27th August, 1863, and the other in that of Mr. C. J. Brydges of 4th March, 1864. Our credit is good enough to procure us the means of buUding the railway with out having recourse to Confederation. To sum up all in few words : aU the advantages are negative, that is to say. Confederation wiU do no harm to our interests, military or com mercial, but neither do they require it. As to the inconveniences of which it may be pro ductive, I leave them to the judgment of the House, who wUl decide whether they are posi tive. I am asked: " If you wiU have nothing to do with Confederation, what wUl you have ?" 357 I answer, we would remain as we are. That, I am told, is impossible, in our present position with respect to Upper Canada. The Hon. Premier, in introducing the scheme of Con federation to the Legislature, said, — " At the time these measures were resolved upou, the oountry was bordering on civil strife, and he would ask if it was not the duty of both sides to do all they could to prevent the unfortunate results which would have followed." All the ministers following him, used expressions of the same tenor, nothing caring for the in calculable wrong which they were doing to the country, they whose duty it was to wateh for the preservation of its good name, and the safety of its interests. How will the world be astonished, who look upon Canada as one of the most favored countries on earth, in which the people enjoy more liberty and more perfect tranquiUity than is to be found in any other — how will they be astonished to hear that we are " a country bordering on civil strife?" How wUl such tidings affect our credit ? The world will not understand the motives of our ministers in painting the condition of our country in such gloomy colors. It wiU not be aware that they must have Confeder ation to keep their places, and that this threat of war is uttered for the nonce as an unanswer able argument to force us to accept it. What a discrepancy there is between this declaration of the Ministry that we are "bordering on civil strife," and the opening of the Speech from the Throne, which expresses " thankful ness to a beneficent Providence for the gen eral contentment of the people of this pro vince," or the address voted by the Legisla ture in answer to the Speech from the Throne, which is the faithful echo of this grateful sentiment I What would the members of the Ministry have said_ if a member had risen to move an amendment to the Address in the words made use of by the Hon. Premier, " That the country is bordering on civil strife, and that therefore the House can not admit that there is general contentment among the people?" It is on reasons widely differing from these that the Speech from the Throne takes ground in recommending the adoption of the scheme of Confederation. But are we really bordering on civU strife ? Of course it is representation based on popu lation which is the exciting cause. Do the people of Upper Canada demand representa tion based on population as a condition sine qud non of the continuation of our peaceful relations with them ? Has this desire to ob tain representation based on population taken such deep root in the bosom of Upper Canada, that it is ready to plunge us and itself into the horrors of civil war in order to achieve it ? Or is not representation by population rather one of those political clap-traps whioh ambitious men, who can catch them no other way, set to catch the heedless multitude? We, Lower Canadians, who at this distance cannot judge of the sentiments of Upper Canadians by our own observation, must de pend for the formation of our opinions re specting them on the Upper Canada news papers, and on the speeches of their members in this House. They are the only sources of information which we possess. Well, in 1862, we saw the Upper Canada leaders, except the President of the Council, who was wise enough to keep aloof, who are at the same time con nected with the principal newspapers there, either as proprietors, editors or co-editors, ac cept office under the Macdonald-Siootte Government, the fundamental principle of which was equal representation of the two sections, a principle which entitled it to the cordial support of Lower Canada. These gentlemen we saw reelected, notwithstanding their abandonment of their principles, and we found them voting against representation by population. From this I conclude that Up per Canada is much more indifferent, and its leaders much less sincere touching this ques tion of the representation, than they would have us believe. Were it otherwise. Upper Canada would have taken the opportunity, afforded by the election, of punishing the men who had betrayed her. But who are those two men who now pitch their voices in harmony (formerly so discordant) to predict civil war, if we do not vote for Confederation ? They are the Attomey General for Lower Canada, and the President ofthe Council (Hon. Messrs. Cartier and Brown I) — the one demanding representation by population, the other refus ing it : both took their stand as the champions of their sections, and became their chieftains respectively. When they found out that that game was unprofitable to both, as the Presi dent of the Council seemed to be excluded for ever from the ministerial benches, and the Attorney General could not maintain himself in his position on them, the Attorney General gave way : he agreed to representation by population, trying to disguise it under the name of Confederation; and to reward him for this complaisance, the President of the Council saved him — ^him and his colleagues — and condescended to take a seat among them. They hold over us a threat of civil war to 358 foroo us to ratify their bargain. There is only one man in Canada who could have done what the Attorney General for Lower Canada has done, and that man is himself. Thanks to his energy, to his intimate acquaintance with the strong and the weak points of his fellow-countrymen, the Attorney General for Lower Canada has succeeded in attaining an elevation which no one can dispute with him — that of chief of the French Canadian na tionality. To attain this eminence, he has crushed the weak, cajoled the strong, deceived the credulous, bought up the venal, and exaltr ed the ambitious ; by turns he has called in the accents of religion and stimulated the clamour of interest — he has gained his end. When Lower Canada heard of his alliance with the President of the Council, there arose from all quarters one universal cry of indig nation. He managed to convert the cry of anger into a shout of admiration. When his scheme of Confederation became public, a feeling of uneasiness pervaded all minds; that instinct forewarned them of the danger which impended. He has hushed that feel ing to a sleep of profound security. I shall compare him to a man who has gained the unbounded confidence of the public, who takes advantage of it to set up a Savings Bank, in which the rich man deposits his wealth, and the day laborer the small amount which he has squeezed out of his wages, against a day of need — both without a voucher. When that man has gathered all into his strong box, he finds an opportunity to purchase, at the cost of all he holds in trust, the article on which he has long set his ambitious eye ; and he buys it, unhesitatingly, without a thought of the wretches who are doomed to ruin by his con duct. The deposit committed to the keeping of the Attorney General is the fortune of the French-Canadians — their nationality. That fortune had not been made in a day ; it was the accumulation of the toil and the savings of a whole people in a whole century. To prolong the ephemeral exiatende of hia admin iatration for a few montha, the Attorney Gen eral haa sacrificed, without a scruple, thia precious trust, whioh the unbounded con fidence of hia fellow-countrymen had confided to hia keeping. Hon. Mr. CARTIER— And what have I received in payment for that ? Mr. JOLY — A salary of five thousand dol lara per annum, and the honor of the position. Hon. Mr. CARTIER— That is not enough for me. Mr. JOLY — I am well aware of it ; that is why the honorable member is desirous of extending tbe circle of his operations. But he wiU not long enjoy the fruits of his trea son ; by crushing the power of the hrench- Canadians he has crushed his own, for upon them his existence depends. Does he believe in the sincerity of the friendship of the Liber als of Upper Canada ? They fought with him for too long a time to allow of the existence of any sympathy between them and him, and now he has lost even their respect. _ They consented to ally themselves with him in order to obtain their object — representation by population; but when they no longer stand in need of him, they wUl throw him aside like a worn-out tool. I look upon this threat of civil war as resembling a farce played by two comrades ; they shout out to us, " Take care, we are going to fight; we sball do some mischief if you don't hold us." Do not put yourselves out of the way to stop them ; you need not be alarmed, they wiU not fight. It is also said to us, " See how many changes of Ministry there have been since 1862; can such a state of affairs continue any longer ?" I am free to admit that all those changes must have been very unpleasant for the different ministers who have succumbed under them, but has the country suffered much by them ? The condition of the finances of a nation is the touchstone of its prosperity. In 1862, the Minister of Finance, before re signing, declared a deficit of five mUlions one hundred and fifty-two thousand dollars (page 20 of his speech) ; for the year ending the 30th June last, there was a surplus of seven hun dred and fifty thousand dollars. If all these changes of ministries had not taken place, it is impossible to say how large the deficit would have become by this time, as for sever al years previous to 1862 it had gone on steadily increasing. These two reasons ad vanced by ministers are merely intended as a veil to conceal the true motive for this com plete revolution in our Constitution; that true motive ia aimply a deaire on their parts to remain in power. Without wishing to enter into aU the details of the meas,ure pro poaed to the House, which have been so ably handled by the honorable member for Hoche laga, more especiaUy those relating to the Legislative Council, there are some which I cannot pass over in silence. The following are the paragraphs of the resolutions of tbe Quebec Conference which regulate the organi-' zation of the Lower House of the Federal Legislature, principally in respect of the num ber of representatives : — 359 17. The basis of repreaentation in the House of Commons shall be population, as determined by the official census every ten years . and the number of members at firat shall be 194, dia- tributed as follows : Upper Canada 82 Lower Canada 65 Nova Scotia 19 New Brunswick 15 Newfoundland 8 Prince Edward Island 5 18. Until the ofhcial censua of 1871 haa been made up,there ahall be no change in the number of repreaentativea from the several sectiona. 19. Immediately after the completion of the census of 1871, and immediately after every decennial census thereafter, the representation from each section in the House of Commons ahall be readjvisted on the basis of population. 20. For the purpose of auch readjustments. Lower Canada shall always be assigned sixty-five members, and each of the other aectiona ahall at each readjuatment receive, for the ten years then next succeeding, the number of membera to which it will be entitled on the same ratio of represen tation to population as Lower Canada will enjoy according to the cenaua last taken by having sixty-five members. 21. No reduction shall be mads in the number of members returned by any section, unless its population shall have decreased, relatively to the population of the whole Union, to the extent of five per centum. 22. In computing at each decennial period the number of members to which each section is en titled, no fractional parts shall be considered, unless when exceeding one-half the number en titling to a member, in which case a member shall be given for each such fractional part. I object to the 21st clauae, because it contains provisions which are unjuat to Lower Canada. The full scope of that clause is not generally understood ; that proportion of five per cent. appears to be a very small affair, and yet, under certain circumstances, it might produce considerable results, which are not taken into consideration in the explanations given on that subject in the work written by the Honorable Mr. Cauchon, which the Government has caused to be distributed (pages 72 to 87). It is difficult to foretell what the exact numer ical increase of the several provinces will be from the present time to the next census in 1871. The Honorable Mr. Cauchon assumes, as the basis of his calculations, a rate of thirty per cent. Let us suppose the case to prove that in ali the provinces (with the exception of Lower Canada) the population increases by thirty per cent, between 1861 and 1871, and that that of Lower Canada increases by thirty-four per cent. It may, perhaps, be objected to this that it is improbable. My reply is, that wheu we ara discussing a soheme of such importance as that which is now under our consideration, we should provide for all possible contingencies; but this one is far from being impossible if tbe predictions of the Minister of Finance and the Attorney General, who promise to Lower Canada so brilliant a future under the Federal system, are fulfilled. If Lower Canada becomes the heart of the commercial life of the Confederation ; if the mines of copper, lead, sUver, and gold which we have lately discovered should produce the same results that they produce everywhere else, that of attracting a great influx of popu lation, I cannot be accused of any very great exaggeration in supposing tbat the population of Lower Canada may, between the years 1861 and 1871, increase by four per cent, more than the population of the other proviuces. In the case which I have supposed the in crease would be as follows : — Upper Canada 418,82'7 Lower Canada. 377,625 Nova Scotia 99,257 New Brunswick 75,614 Newfoundland 39,000 Prince Edward Island 24,227 Total increase 1,034,550 According to this calculation. Lower Canada would have, in 1871, a population of 1,488,- 289 souls, which would have to be divided by 65, that being the invariable number of repre sentatives assigned to Lower Canada, in order to ascertain what will be the number of con stituents for each representative in the Fed eral Parliament ; the result will be found to be 22,896. Upper Canada would have a population of 1,814,918 souls, which, divided by 22,896, would give her seventy-nine repre sentatives instead of eighty-two. Nova Sootia would have a population of 430,114 souls, which would give ber nineteen representatives as at present (eighteen and a fraction over the half). New Brunswick would have a popu lation of 327,661 souls, which would give her fourteen representatives instead of fifteen. Newfoundland would have a population of 169,000 souls, which would give her seven representatives instead of eight. Prince Ed ward Island would have a population of 104,984 souls, which would give her five members as at present (four and a fraction over the half). It will be seen that if the five otber provinces were represented on the same scale as Lower Canada, they would, in 1871, lose among them five members ; but as the total population of each will not have decreased by five per cent., relatively to the total population of the Confederated Provinces, 360 there -will be no reduction in the number of their representatives, in accordance with the provisions of this 21st clause. It is the interest of Lower Canada, more than of any other province, to watch with a jealous eye over the mechanism adopted for the organizar tion of the Federal Legislature. In case of a -vital question arising, we should have to coun teract the votes of these five members (who ought, in justice, to be deducted from the representation of the other provinces) by those of five of our members, whose votes would thus be lost to us, as would also be the weight which their five united counties, with a total population of 114,480 (or 22,896 for each county), would throw into the scale. Other combinations of circumstances might arise which might prove even more disadvantageous to us. 'This subject naturally leads me to address myself to my French Canadian col leagues ; I fear that my remarks may not be weU received by all, but I hope that honorable members wiU be good enough to excuse my frankness in consideration of the great import ance of the question. I have no right to maintain that all those who are favorably dis posed- towards Confederation are not acting in good faith; it is not my wish to reproach them for acting according to their convictions, but in so acting tbey should not forget the duties which their charge imposes ou them. It a well known fact that when the scheme of Confederation was laid before the pub lic, all the newspapers, and most of the members who support the Administration, declared themselves in favor of the scheme, but, in nearly every instance, with an ex press reservation of the right to introduce certain amendments which they considered indispensable. But the Honorable Attor ney General for Upper Canada declared, some days ago, that the Government would accept no amendment, and that the resolu tions must be adopted exactly in the shape in which tbey were brought down. Are honor able members going to submit to this decree ? Is it not their intentiou .at least to make an effort to have those amendments, which they looked upon as indispensable, adopted ? Their position in relation to the Government confera upon them an influence which they can never exert more uaefuUy than at present ; it is their duty to exert that influence ; they are responsible for the results of this measure, which cannot be adopted without their con currence. Their principal argument in sup port of Confederation is that we have now an excellent opportunity of obtaining favorable conditions — an opportunity which will proba bly never occur again, and one of which it is their duty to avail themselves. But ha-ve the honorable members made those conditions ? Have they taken as great precautions to pre serve intact the interests of nearly a million French Canadians entrusted to their care, as they would have taken in making an agree ment for the sale of a farm, or even the pur chase of a horse ? Have they made any con ditions at all ? If they have made no condi tions, do they at least know what the fate is that is reserved for us ? Do they know the nature of the form of Govemment which wiU be imposed on Lower Canada? Can they say whether we shall have Responsible Gov ernment ? No ! for the Ministry refuses to speak ; it wiU only speak when the measure of Confederation shall have been adopted, and when it is too late to raise any objections. Responsible government would not be a very efficacious remedy for the evUs which I fore see, but it would, at all events, be a means of defence for us, and we ought not to reject it. It is true that, according to the 41st article of the resolutions, " The local governments and legislature of each province shall be con structed in such manner as the existing legis lature of each such pro-vince shall provide." But the English element is at present in the majority. We are told that the English are naturaUy ^favorable to responsible govern ment. That is true when it relates to them selves ; for how many years did Canada re main without responsible govemment ? The painful events of 1837 and 1838 were the result of that anomaly in the parliamentary system. Upper Canada wUl not need, as we shall, a local responsible government ; it wUl not have, as we shall have, to defend a nation ality which will be in a minority in the. Fed eral Parliament, but which, at least, ought to enjoy in Lower Canada those powers which parliamentary authority everywhere accords to the majority. Upper Canada only desires to make of her local legislature a municipal council on a large scale ; she will flght out her party quarrels in the wider arena of the Federal ParUament. The Engliah of Lower Canada, who -will gain nothing by having a reaponsible local government, because that government is the government of the major ity, will unite their votes with those of Upper Canada to impose upon us the same system of government as in the other section. The local parliaments, in the event of that system being adopted, having no part in the govern ment, -will soon become perfectly useless, and 361 they wUl soon be dispensed with, just as in a machine we do away with useless and expen sive wheelwork. Nothing will then be left to us but the legislative union which the honor able members have not ventured to propose, because they are compelled to admit it would be an act of crying injustice to Lower Can ada. But we are told to rely on article 42, which gives to the local legislatures the right of amending or changing their Constitutions from time to time, and it is said that when Lower Canada is separated from Upper Can ada, she may alter her Constitution if she pleases, and adapt it to her own views. It must not be forgotten, however, that the Lieutenant-Governor, who will enjoy the right of reserving the biUs of the Local Par liament for the sanction of the Govemor Gen-, eral, will be appointed by the Govemor Gen eral in CouncU, that is to say, by the Federal Government, and, as a matter of course, it must be expected tbat he will act in Conform ity with the views of the Federal Govern ment. Any bill reserved by him will require to be sanctioned by the Federal Government, which may refuse such sanction if they think proper, as they undoubtedly will as regards any bill the object of which might be to give reaponsible government to Lower Canada, whUst aU the other provinces would only have govemments which were not responsible. And the militia, — it wiU be exclusively under the control of the Federal Government. Have the honorable the French-Canadian members, to whom I more particularly address myself at this moment, reflected on tbe danger to us that is contained in thia provision ? It is witb reluctance that I once more allude to the dif ficulties which may arise between the different sections of the Confederacy, but it would be wrong to shut our eyes to the future for fear that it may appear too threatening. Did we not, a few days ago, hear one of the honorable members, who most warmly supports the Gov ernment, complain in this House that Upper Canada was going to have four mUitary schools, whUst Lower Canada would only have two ? Why should we vest in tbe Federal Government the right of giving instruction in the military art and of arming the other provinces at the expense of Lower Canada ? Why, while there is yet time, should we ne glect to take those salutary precautions on which our existence as French-Canadians de pend? Our Local Government ought to have the same active part in the organization, in struction and equipment of our militia which 47 belongs to all local governments which fonU pal-t of other confederacies. But I was for getting that this is to be a model Confeder ation, which is to unite within itself all the evils of the Federative system -without includ ing one of its advantages. I read in the work in favor of Confederation, to which I have referred on more than one occasion, page 25, as follows : " With them we offer protection to your religion, to your institutions, and to your civU laws," &c., &c. They offer to protect the French-CanadianS; but when; under the present Constitution, they can protect them selves, why should they abdicate the right of so doing? Now they arc strongly entrenched in their citadel, and they are advised to raze the walls in order to secure their safety. The French Canadians, at the present day, are in a better position than they were at the time of the union. They are at the same tirhe both judges and suitors. They are asked to adopt a new form of govemment ; it is not iraposed upon them ; and, to induce them to do so, thehon. Miniater of Agriculture teUa them that this new form of government was recoinmeUded aucceaaively by Chief Juatice Sewell, Judge Robinson, and Lord Durham. The names alone of theae three men ought to suffice to open our eyea; their avowed object alwaya waa to obliterate French-Canadian nationaUty, to blend the racea into one only, and that the English ; and to attain that end they recom mended, as the Minister of Agriculture has told us, the system of government now sub mitted for our approval. In the last paaaage, a few lines of whicii I have juat cited, we find at page 25 a phraae upon which I have refiected aerioualy ; it ia aa follows, and ia placed by the author in the mouths of the English- Canadians of Lower Canada, "Re raeraber that we, too, are inhabitanta of Lower Canada, and that we, too, aspire to other and nobler destinies." I asked of myself, -with all seriousnesa, what then are the aapirations of the French-Canadians? I have always imagined, indeed I stUl imagine, that they all centre in one point, the maintenance of their nationality as a shield destined for the protec tion of the institutions they hold most dear. For a whole century this has ever been the aim of the French-Canadians; in the long years of adversity they have never for a mo ment lost sight of it ; surmounting aU obstacles, they have advanced step by step towards ita attainment, and what progress have they not made ? What is their position to-day ? They number nearly a million, they have no longe». 362 if they are true to themselves, to fear the fate of Louisiana, whioh had not as many inhabi tants, when it was sold by Napoleon to the United States, as Canada had in 1761. A people numbering a million does not vanish easily, especially when they are the owners of the soil. Their number is rapidly increasing. New townships are being opened in every direction, and being peopled with industrious settlers. In the Eastern Townships, which it was thought were destined to be peopled en tirely by English settlers, these latter are slowly giving way to the French-Canadians. There is a friendly rivalry between the two races, a struggle of labor and energy ; contact with our fellow-countrymen of English origin has at last opened our eyes ; we have at last comprehended that in order to succeed, not only labor is needed, but well-directed and skilled labor, and we profit by their exaraple and by the experience they have acquired in the old countries of Europe. Agriculture with us is now becoming an honorable pursuit ; tbe man of education is no longer ashamed to devote himself to it. Our farmers feel the ne cessity and desire of attaining perfection in the art. We possess magnificent model farms, in which we can learn the science of agriculture. We are entering a new era of prosperity. The French-Canadians hold a distinguished position in the commerce of the country ; they have founded banks and sa-vings banks ; on the St. Lawrence between Quebec and Montreal, they own one of the finest lines of steamboats in America ; there is not a parish on the great river which haa not ita ateamboat ; the communications with the great towna are easy ; we have raUwaya, and we now meaaure by hours the duration of a journey which for merly we measured by days ; we have foun dries and manufactories, and our shipbuild ers have obtained a European renown. We have a literature peculiarly our own ; we have authors, of whom we are justly proud ; to them we en trust our language and our history; they are the piUars of our nationality. Nothing de notes our exiatence aa a people ao much aa our lit erature ; education haa penetrated everywhere ; we have aeveral excellent coUegea, and an uui- veraity in which all the aciences may be atudied under excellent profeaaora. Our young men learn in the military achoola how to defend their country. We possess aU the elements of a nationality. But a few months ago, we were steadily advancing towards prosperity, satisfied with the present and confident in the future of the French-Canadian people. Sud denly discouragement, which had never over come us in our adversity, takes possession of us; our aspirations are now only empty dreams; the labors of a century must be wasted; we must give up our nationality, adopt a new one, greater and nobler, we are told, than our own, but then it will no longer be our own. And why ? Because it is our inevitable fate, against which it is of no use to struggle. But have we not already strug gled against destiny when we were more feeble than we are now, and have we not triumphed ? Let us not give to the world the sad spectacle of a people voluntarily resigning its nation ality. Nor do we intend to do so. Let the people have time given them to understand the question ; let their opinion on the subject be obtained at the polls. It is but their right, unless our form of government is a delusion and a snare. If the measure is a good one, what danger is there in discussing it ? If the new Constitution it is proposed to give us is to last for centuries, why should we not at least endeavor to make it as perfect as possi ble ? Why press its adoption before it is understood ? In conclusion, I object to the proposed Confederation, first, as a Canadian, without reference to origin, and secondly, aa a French-Canadian. From either point of view, I look upon the measure as a fatal error ; and, as a French-Canadian, I once more appeal to my fellow-oountrymen, reminding them ofthe precious inheritance confided to their keeping — an inheritance sanctified by the blood of their fathers, and which it is their duty to hand down to their children as unimpaired as they received it. (Cheers.) The debate was then adjoumed. Tuesday, February 21, 1865. Hon. Solicitor General LANGEVIN — It is not without some degree of hesitation that I rise to address the House on this occasion ; for I see before me the represent atives of two millions and a half of people, who are called together to settle the most weighty matters which concern them, and more particularly to take into consideration a question involving the destiny, not only of the two Canadas, but also of aU the Provin ces of British North America. 1 must con fess that I experience a strong feeling of hesitation and great diffidence: of my own powers, when I consider the importance of the measure submitted to us for discussion, and the consequences whieh may result from 368 our decision, both to ourselves and our pos terity. The measure is so vast in its bear ings, the interests affected by it are so con siderable, that no one can be surprised at my diffidence and hesitation. This question of Confederation is bound up with the common interests of empires and the general policy of nations, for it is no unimportant matter for the great nations who bear sway among mankind, to know into what hands the Pro vinces of British North America may fall. We need only look back into the pages of history to learn how greatly nations are moved by the creation of a new people ; and on the present occasion, the thousand voices of the press proclaim the interest which the question of Confederation excites both in America and in Europe itself, and how closely the governments observe our proceedings ; and this interest which they feel and proclaim is legitimate and natural, for the measure is destined to make us rank among the nations of the earth. More than all, this question particularly concerns Eng land and the United States, and in an equal degree with ourselves. England is interest ed in seeing these provinces well governed, prosperous, free, contented and happy. She is interested in their having a good govern ment, and that it should be so administered as to be no burthen to her as the Mother Country ; that, on the contrary, they should become powerful and in a position to assist her in certain eventualities. On the other hand, the United States must feel a degree of satisfaction in seeing the Provinces of British North America become a powerful nation. They will see it without a feeling allied to jealousy. They must wish us to be strong enough to maintain our neutrality, our good understanding with them, and those friendly relations which should ever subsist between nei^hbori^g nations. But if this question is interesting to England and the United Statea, itia still more so to ourselves — to us, whose destiny is at stake, to us whose position is a lofty one as compared with the ordinary lot of nations ; for the faculty is not granted to all nations to choose their own lot in the full leisure ofa time of peace, with out the taint of a single drop of blood shed — • to fix upou a Constitution which will set them at once on the high road of progress, and enable them to take such ground for their career as may seem good in their own eyes. In 1840, when the union of the two Canadas was under consideration, we occupied no such position, for that union was imposed upon us in our own despite, and we were never con sulted on the subject. It will be re membered that for a certain time our very language was proscribed, and our poaition rendered as unfortunate as it could be made. True, we had an equal num ber of representatives in this House, but as a people we were manifestly held to be inferior. I grant that the attempt to fix the yoke permanently on our necks proved a failure, but this was no fault of those who imposed the union on us. We have won the position which we now occupy by our own energy and perseverance, assisted by some of the representatives of Upper Ca nada. At this day things are greatly changed. We are in the midst of a great revolution, but a revolution of which peace is the guid ing spirit ; we are free to deliberate whether we will change our position, and to dictate the. terms on which the change is to be made. We are invited to shape out our future destiny, and we should not be true to ourselvea, or to our conatituents, if we refused this day to avail ourselves of the resolutions adopted at the Conference of Quebec. The hon. member for Hochelaga (Hon. Mr. Do rion), whom I regret not to see in hia place — Hon. Mr. HOLTON— He wUl be here in a moment. Hon. Sol. Gen. LANGEVIN— The hon. member for Hochelaga told us the other day that the plan of a Confederation was adopted and moved by the present Adminia tration for the mere purpose of stifling the cry of representation by population. Well, and if it really were so, where does the hon. member find the harm in it ? Is it not most important that we should stop that cry for representation based on population, in our present condition ? Repreaentation by popu lation would hMve left ua. Lower Canadians, in an inferior poaition relatively to that of Upper Canada — would have conferred on the latter the privilege ot legislating for us, not only in general, but in local matters. The hon. member for Hochelaga ought to have been the last to reproach the present Govern ment with having, by this meaaure of Con federation, stopped the cry for representation based on population. In 1854, the hon. member admitted, as he himself acknow ledges, that representation based on popula tion waa juatin principle, and the consequence of that admission was fatal. The consequence was that the hon. member was compelled to keep in the same track until the formation of ths BBOWN-DoaiON Administration in 364 1858 — an Administration which had no very long existence. (Hear, hear.) Hon. Mr. HOLTON— Unfortunately. (Laughter.) Hon. Sol. Gen LANGEVIN— That Administration had no very long existence, and I rejoice that I did my part in upsetting it, for it ia probable that, if it bad atood, representation based on population would have been forced upon ua, and we should not be now in our present position — ^in a position to raake our own torraa aa freely aa Upper Cauada, and take part, on a footing of equality, in negotiating a treaty with the Lower Provinces. Thia ia why I rejoice that I contributed to overthrow that govern ment. The hon. member for Hochelaga told us the other evening that in 1856 he spoke aa follows : — In 1856, when Parliament was aitting at To ronto, I first suggested that one means of sur mounting our difficulties would be the substitution ofa Confederation ofthe two Canadas in place of a Legialative union. By that arrangement local questions would be debated in the local legisla tures, and the Central Government would have the control of commercial and other questions of general interest. I said that considering the differences of race, religion and laws now exist ing between the two sections of the country, it -would be the best means of surmounting them. That ia to say, 1 would leave to a central govern ment queations regarding commerce, banking, the currency, public works of a general character, &c., and to the local legislatures all local ques tions. At the same time I said that if these viewa were not accepted, 1 ahould certainly he in favor of representation based on population, with con ditions and guarantees which would secure the interests of Lower Canada, and {preserve to Lower Canada the institutions whioh are so dear to her. WeU, we aee that in 1856, the hon. member for Hochelaga waa desirous of forming a new Constitution for the expreas purpoae of atifling the cry for repreaentation baaed on population. In 1858 he formed, together with the preaent Hon. Preaident of the Coun cil (Hon. Mr. Brown), the Brow.^-Dorion Government; and again, he atipulated that t:^e question of repreaentation based on population should le taken into conaidera tion, and that the Government ahould con sider .the means of settling the difficulties which it involved. In 1859 he signed a document, which also bore the sign;|turea of Hon. Mr. Drummond, Hon. Mr. Des- SAUJ.LES, and Hon. Mr. McGee, in which ho said with his colleagues, that a change in the Constitution of the country was neces sary : — If Lower Canada insiats on maintaining the union intact ; if ahe will neither conaent to a diaaolution of the union, nor consider the project of a Federation, it is difficult to conceive on what reasonable grounds the demand for representation according to population can be resisted. The plea for such resistance has hitherto been that danger might arise to some of her peculiar and raost cherished institutions ; but that ground will be no longer tenable if she rejects a propoaition, the effect of which would be to leave to her own people the sole and abaolute custody of those institutions, and to surround them hy the most stringent of all possible safeguards, the proviaions of the fundamental law of the land, unalterable save by the action of the people affected hy them. The logical alternative now presented to the people of Lower Canada would, therefore, seem to he dissolution or federation on the one hand, and representation according to population on the other.Here, again, he intended to stifle the ory of representation based on population, and intended to do it by founding a new Confed eration. In 1861 it was just the same ; he declared that he was desiroua of settling that question of the represeotation ; that it waa not expedient that it ahould reraain an open queation ; that it waa a difficulty to be got rid of one way or another. In 1862, alao, he went into the Government with the aarae object in view But bow did he aet about carrying it out ? He made it a cloae queation, and adopted, with hia colleagues, the plan of the double majority. The hon. member doubtleaa had forgotten that in 1859, wheu he penned the manifeato which I have juat quoted, he had condemned the double majority. Here ia, in fact, what he aaid in that document : — In each section there would atill he minority and majority partiea, aud unleaa the principle of the double majority could be enacted as a funda mental law, we ahould be exposed to an endless round of the same complaints that we now hear, of one section ruling the other contrary to its well known public opinion, aud to aee reproduced in our politica the same passions, the aame intrigues, the aame corruption and insincerity. The enact ment of the double majority is not advocated in any quarter. The impossibility of clearly defining the cases to which it should apply, and of distin guishing them from those to which it should not, is felt by all ; but were it even possible, it would only lead to new phases of difficulty, by compelling majorities profeaaing opinions and principles diametrically oppoae -I to each other, to unite, aud thereby effectually to extinguish the influence 365 of one or the other minority, or of both. It is difficult to conceive one single legislature com poaed of two majorities and two minorities ; these two majorities -without any identity of principle, acting nevertheless together by common consent, so as to never trespass the one ou the other, and so that each aection ofthe province would alwaya he governed by a majority of ita repreaentativea. On many questions thia courae could not be car ried out without alternately forcing the majority of the repreaentativea of each aection of the pro vince to abatain from voting, or to declare them selves in favor of measures whioh their judgment and their conscience would disavow. The com plications of such a system amounting to nothing short of an application of the Federal principle to a single legialature, would render it impracticable. Then the honorable member had changed hia opinion on thia aubject ! I do not say this as a reproach ; but it proves that he always acted with the same object in view — that is to aay, tostifle the cry for representation baaed on population. How, then, does it happen that he finds fault with the present Ministry for bringing forward a measure to put an end to these difficulties, and to pre vent our being placed in a position of infe riority? But the objectof the Confederation is not merely to do away with existing diffi culties. It haa become a necessity, because we have become sufficiently great, — because we have become strong, rich, and powerful enough, — becauae our product? are numerous enough and considerable enough, — because our population haa become large enough to allow of our aapiring to another poaition, and of our seeking to obtain an outlet through some seaport tor our products. At the pre sent day we stand in a position of vassalage to the United Statea, with respect to the exportation of our products to Europe ; we are at their mercy. If we should have any difficulty with our neighbors to-morrow, they would close the Portland route to us, and we should find ourselves, during nearly seven months io the year, cut off from all commu nication with the seaboard, save by ijeans of the usual long and difficult land journey. This is not a tenable position, nor one worthy of a people such as that which inhabita the Provinces of British North America. It is a position which must be emerged from, for such is the interest of Canada, of the Lower Provinces, and of the Western States. The honorable member for Hochelaga told us that he was in favor of a plan which would settle existing difficulties, and would place Lower Canada in a suitable position ; but he never told as what that plan was. The only thing he ever proposed was his plan of 1859 for the Confederation of the two Canadas ; but that plan would only have settled one diffi culty, and would have allowed others of tho greatest importance to arise — and among others, that respecting our communication with the seaboard. That plan, for instance, would not have allowed us to construct the Intercolonial Railway; for it is almost im possible that so great an enterprise should succeed unless it is in the hands of a great cen*ral power, and if it is necessary to consult five or six governments before commencing it. But the questioD of the Confederation of the two Canadas is not the only one which is presented as a means of eanaping from our difficultiea; there are different plana which I shall enumerate. Some propoae, for instance, that we should remain in the position in which we now are ; others wish for annexa tion to the United Statea; aome would, per hapa, be in favor of complete independence ; others would favor a Confederation ofthe two Canadas ; and, lastly, the Confederation of all the Britiah North American Provinces is proposed. Well, let us cursorily examine these varioua propoaitiona. It may be that there are some members who are desirous that we should remain as we are. The honorable members for Hochelaga and Lotbiniere (Hon. Mr. Dorion and Sir. Joly) consider our position an excellent one, and so, in their speeches, they have told us. They consider that we are ex tremely prosperous, and that we have nothing to wish for. For my part, I consider that in our present poaition we are under a great disadvantage ; it ia that if we remain iaolated and alone, we cannot communicate with the metropolia, except through the United States; if we remain alone we can aspire to no position, we can give rein to no ambition as a people. Again, wo have at the present time as many syatems of judica ture aa we have provincea; with Confedera tion, on the contrary, this defect will be removed, and there will be but two systema: one for Lower Canada, becauae our lawa are different from thoae of the other provincea, be cauae we are a separate people, and because we do not choose to have the laws of the other populations — and the other for the remainder of the Confederation. All the other provinces having the same laws, or their system of law being derived from one and the aame source, may have one aud tbe same system of judicature; and, in fact, a resolution- of the Conference allows them to resolve that they will have one code and oae 366 judicial syatem ; but an exception is made in favor of Lower Canada and our laws. There are also aa many different tariffa aa there are different provinces, as many commercial and euatoma regulationa as provinces. It is true tbat there are now many free goods, but it is also correct to say that there as many cus toms systems as there are provinces. And with respect to great colonial works, is it not true that it is impoaaible at the preaent day to undertake them, becauae the intereata in volved are too conaiderable, and becauae it is necessary to consult three or four legiala turea ? By this it will be underatood that it is almoat impoasible to reconcile ao many differ ent intereata, except by uniting in one and the aame legialature the repreaentativea of those interesta and of the people affected by them, and thia objectwe cannot attain by remaining by ouraelves. Currency and the iuterest of money are also regulated by different systems in the several provincea. There is one cur- lency here, another in Newfoundland, an other in Prince Edward Ialand, and so on. The ahilling and pound of thia province are different from the ahilling and pound of Newfoundland and thoae of the other Mari time Provincea. But, with Confederation, all theae mattera would be placed under the control of one central legialature ; the cur rency would become uniform tbroughout, and capital might be everywhere inveated without obatacle. So alao it will be with reapect to the rights of authors, patents for mechanical inventions, &c. When speaking of tbe Intercolonial Railway, I made no men tion of the Pacific Railway, because I con sider that we ought to devote our attention to accomplishing the worka of which we at present stand in need. At a later period, when our resources and our population shall have sufficiently increased, we may direct our attention to the Pacific Railway. And should it become necesaary, we can, with Confed eration, hope to build it in leaa than ten years, whereaa by remaining by ouraelvea aa we are, we could not hope to have it for per hapa one hundred yeara. I think that I bave now held up in a aalient point of view the disadvantagea of the status quo. The necea aary conaequence of what I have juat demon strated ia that we cannot remain in the po aition in whioh we now are, whether we will or not. The queation of representation based on population must be met; that question ujust be settled. To say that we wiU grant it is to wish to place us in a posi tion of inferiority, and I, for my part, will never consent to place my section of the province in that poaition. Then there ia another alternative that ia propoaed — annex ation to the United Statea. I do not believe there ia a aingle member in tbe Houae or out of the Houae who would consent to the annexation of Canada to the United Statea. But it ia a queation which must be exarained when discussing that of Confederation, be cause it is one of the alternatives offered to us, and out of which we have to make a selection. What then would be our position in case we were annexed to the United States ? It is true tbat we should become an independent State in Ihe American Con federation, but with the advantages accruing from such a state of affairs, we should like wise have the disadvantages. We should have to contribute towards the liquidation of the enormous debt which the United States have contracted in consequence of the war which is desolating one of the finest portions ofthe land; we should have to pay the interest, and subsequently the principal itself, for I do not suppose that the Ameri cans have the slightest intention of repudiat ing their debt. The debt would have to be paid, and to effect that, heavy imposts would have to be paid for a great number of years to provide the interest and sinking fund. Those wbo talk of the debt whioh is going to reault from the Confederation should remember that it will be but a mere trifle compared with that for which we should become responsible under annexation. For one dollar that we shall bave to pay under Confederation, we should have to pay aix under annexation. It ia aaid that the debt will be enormoua, but it will only be as one dollar to four dollars in England, and six dollara in the United Statea. That ia the financial aapect of annexation. But what would be the fate of the French-Canadians in the case of annexation to the United States ? Let us profit by the example of the French race in the United Statea, and enquire what haa been the fate of the French in Louiaiana ? What has become of them ? What haa become ot their language, their euatoma, their mannera and their inatitutiona ? After the war, hardly a trace will remain to show that the French race haa paaaed that way. So far aa religion is concerned, we might not find ouraelvea ao badly off; but we live in peace at the present day and are perfectly comfortable; Catholics and Protest ants have the same rights and religious liberty, and they live as peacefuUy together 367 as if there was but one religion in the land. Mr. DITFRESNF (Iberville)— We are well off, iet us rema.n so. Hon. Sol. Gen. LANGEVIN— Yes, but we cannot remain in the position in ^^hich we are. The hon. m:mber for Hochelaga has said so for ten years past, and undertook to change it. He said the position was no longer tenable in 1854, and if it was not tenable then, it is still less so in 1865. I now come to the other alternative proposed to us — that of independence. Men may be found, both in the House and out of the House, who woul(Lbe disposed to say that we had better have independence than Con federation. For my part, I believe that the independence of tho Britiah North American Provinoes would be the greatest misfortune which could happen to them ; it would be to leave us at the mercy of our neighbors, and to thiow us into their arms. Independence would make us masters of our position, but at the same time we should be deprived of the protection of England, and without that itis by no means difficult to foresee what would become of us. The hon. member for Hochelaga may think it to our advantage to be weak, but in that opinion I do not coin cide ; I consider that it is better to be in a position to meet the enemy in case of his attacking us. Let it be well understood that without the protection of England we can do nothing. And beaidea the outlay which would be entailed by our providing for our defence, there would alao be enor moua expenditure in order to keep up in a auitable manner our relations with foreign powera. With independence, and without the aupport and aaaiacance of Kngland, we should have to maintain an army and a very expensive government, we should have to keep up diplomatic relations with other countries, and provide means to defray a host of other expenses which we should not have to do under Confederation. Independence is, therefore, out of the question for the pre sent. Lastly, we have the fourth alter native — the Confederation of the two Ca nadas, proposed by the honorable member for Hochelaga. In his manifeato of 1861 he told us in what position we should then be. The following passage is from the manifesto in question : — It would have been easy at any time to aatiafy Upper Canada by giving her four or five members more than Lower Canada, preserving at the same time equality in the Legialative Council. To avoid the danger whioh this increase of members might entail, it is proposed to give Upper Canada seventeen membera more than Lower Canada, and there are added beaidea forty-seven members more for the Maritime Provinces ; in all sixty-four members are added to the British element, besides tha twenty-eight additional members which are givei. to the Legislative Council ; and this is the way in which it is pretended that the rights of Lower Canada are to be protected. The hon. member for Hochelaga according to his own plan would have preferred Hon. Mr. DORION— It ia not a plan, it ia an argument. Hon, Sol. Gen. LANGEVIN— Then it is a very bad argument — an argument by no means advantageous to Lower Canada. The hon. member aaya in tbat manifeato that it would be quite an eaay matter to aecure the silence of Upper Canada, by granting it four or five more members than Lower Canada. But the hon. member very well knows that if we were to grant representation baaed on population, it would not be four or five membera we should have to give to Upper Canada, but the seventeen members which it ia now propoaed to give Upper Canada by the plan of Confederation, The increaae would not be baaed on an iraaginary number. But even with four or five membera more in the present union. Upper Canada could impose ita deciaion on all queations which might come before the Houae. The hon. member for Hochelaga haa told ua that under the propoaed ayatem Upper Canada will have soventeen membera more thnn Lower Canada, and that the Engliah element will be in creaaed by the addition of all the membera from the Lower Provincea, and tbat they will enter into a league against us Lower Canadians. I must say, I do not think the hon. member pays a very high compliment to his ex-colleague the Hon. Mr. Holton, when he says that becauae the membera will be Engliah, they will be againat us French- Canadiana. So great waa hia confidence in the hon. member for Chateauguay, that he took him into his Governmeut, and would take him again to-day if he had the oppor tunity; and yet the hon. meraber for Hoche laga speaks of the English as though they were our natural enemies. For my part, I do not think Ijiey are ; moreover, the question before us ia not the formation of a Local Government only. We are conaidering the establishment of a Confederacy — with a Central Parliament and , local parlia ments. The Central or Federal Parliament will have the control of all measures 368 of a general character, as provided by the Quebec Conference; but all matters of local interest, all that relatea to the affairs and rights of the different sections of the Confederacy, wUl be reaerved for the control of tbe local parliamenta. The poai tion in which Confederation wiU place ua ia very different from that which we ahould have occupied under the syatem propoaed by the honorable member, inasmuch as the seventeen membera, whioh Upper Canada will have more than Lower Canada, will have nothing to do with our local affaira, our religioua queationa or particular inatitu tions, and the hon. member for Hochelaga, by his scheme, would have entrusted all that to the good-will of the Upper Canadian majority; but for my part, I would rather entrust the management of these matters to my own people than to them. As regards the seventeen additional members which Upper Canada will have in the Federal Par liament, I am not alarmed at their presence any more than at that of the members from the Lower Provinces, because in Parliament there will be no questiona of race, nation ality, religion or locality, as this Legialature will only be charged with the aettlement of the great general queationa which will intereat alike the whole Confederacy aud not one locality only. Our poaition then ia excellent, and all thoae who frankly give expreaaion -to their opiniona must admit that the representatives of Jjower Canada at the Quebec Conference have care fully guarded her interesta. I may say that the basis of action adopted by the delegates, in preparing the resolutions, waa to do jua tice to all — justice to all races, to all reli- giona, to all nationalitiea, and to all intereata. For thia reaaon the Confederation will be accepted by all, in the Lower Provinces as well as here. Under ConfeiSeration there wUl no longer be domination cf one race over another, and if one aection ahould be deairoua of committing an act of injuatice againat another section, aU the othera would unite together to prevent it. But, auppoaing that an unjuat meaaure was pasaed in the House of Com mon a of the Federal Legialature, it would be stopped in the Lggialative Council; for there we ahall be repreaented equally with the other aectiona, and that is a guar antee that our interests will be amply pro tected. In the Legialative Council we shall have 24 members like Upper Canada and the Lower Provincea. I assert, then, that there is a vast diflPerence between the argu mente of the hon. member for Hochelaga and the measure of the Government ; 9ur interests will be protected by the Legisla tive Council, and the measures of general interest will come under the jurisdiction of the Federal Parliament. When the matter under consideration is a great public enter prise, such as a railway, a canal or a tele graph Une, our religious and national in terests wiU not be endangered. It wUl be the duty of the Central Government to see that the country prospera, but it will not be ita duty to attack our religio*, our inatitutiona ot our nationality, which, moreover, as I have juat proved, wUl be amply protected. While on this point, I will draw the attention of the honorable member for Hochelaga to the fact, that in 1859 he expressed himself as fol lows ; — Whatever may be the number of provinces or of subdiviaiona which it may hereafter be deemed necessary to adopt, the separating line between Upper and Lower Canada must be maintained. In defining the powers of the local and federal governments, those only must be delegated to the latter which would be absolutely necessary for the purpoaea of Confederation, and, aa a neces sary conaequence, reserve to the subdivisions powers as ample and as varied as possible. The customs, the mail service, the lawa respecting the currency, patents and copy-rights, the public lands, and such of the public works as possess an intereat common to all parts of the country, ought to be the principal, if not the only objects which would be placed under the control of the Federal Government, whilst all that would relate to improvements purely local — to education, the adminiatration of juatice, the militia, the laws of property, and of internal police— would be under the control of the local governments, whose powers, in a word, would extend to all matters not specially delegated to the General Government. Thua we aee that the honorable member waa willing to give up the control of the public landa to the Federal Government. He conaidered that it would be better to leave the control of colonization and the public landa to the Federal Government, in which, nevertheless, he was prepared to give a preponderance to Upper Canada. By the plan of Confederation brought down by the present Government, the control of these raatters ia given up to the local legialaturea, and I earnestly hope tbat the honorable member will not endeavor to take them away and transfer them to the control of the Fed eral Government, If hia plan or his argu ment had ever been put into operation, he 369 would have abandoned the control of our public lands to the British element, of which he now pretends to stand in mortal fear. I repeat the declaration that it is impossible for us to couthiue in our present position ; that annexation to the United States would be the greatest disaster that could befal us ; and that it is impossible, that it would be dis astrous to think of the independence of the country ; that the project for the Confeder ation of the two Canadas as proposed by the honorable member for Hochelaga is not de sirable, and would not offer any guarantee fpr the institutions of Lower Canada, but that the Confederation of all the Provinces of British North America would be preferable, and is our only remedy. The Confederation would have the effect of giving us more strength than we now possess ; we should form but one nation, one country, for all general matters affecting our interests as a people. But when I speak of a great and powerful nation, far be it from me to wish that we should form an independent nation, and that we should abandon the protection of the British flag ; on the contrary, I ear nestly hope that we shall long remain under the protection of that flag, What I would say is, that with Confederation we shall be in a better position for self-defence, and to aid the Mother Country under certain exi gencies, than we are at the present time. Having Confederation, the Central Govern ment will be in a position to have its orders carried out over its whole territory ; and when the question of defence comes up, it will not be obliged to consult four or five different legislatures, but it wiU be able to organize our defences immediately and without ob struction. Besides, we shall have acquired a standing which we have not hitherto attained in our relations with other countries with which we have dealings. It is of no small importance for the inhabitants of a country ,to have a standing in foreign countries, and not to be treated as men of inferior position. When Canadians go to London or elsewhere out of their own country, ti;ey have no recognized posi tion, because we are only a simple colony. But under the Confederation we shall be protected by England, and besides we shall have a position in foreign lands, the position which every man enjoys who belongs to a great nation. On this very point a public writer wrote some few years ago in a Lon4pn newspaper an article from which I wUl 48 ask permission to read an extract to the House. The matter under consideration was the cession of the right of fishery on the Banks of Newfoundland by England to France. He says : — Now, see the effect of this want of asajciation and repreaentation here. The baaia of a treaty ia agreed upon between Great Britain aud France, by which Great Britain agreed to give to Prance the excluaive right of fiahing upon a great portion of the coaat of Newfoundland, a thing unjuatified by any former treaty, Newfoundland no aooner heard of it than she remonstrated, and denied the right of Great Britain to sign away to a foreign nation the property of the people of Newfoundland ; and, in fact, aet at defiance the action of the Imperial Government. Now, thia ia not only derogatory to us as a nation, but it illus trates the danger which may ariae to the coloniea from the Imperial Government not being properly informed on such subjects. Por, from a careftd perusal of all the treaties - on the subject in question, we cannot bnt believe that Newfound land waa right. It is evident that, if the Confederation had existed at that period, England would not have acted without consulting us ; but in those days they used to say, " They are Canadians, mere colonists, &c. ;" and as we were then separated, of course we had to submit ; our rights were not protected as they will be when we are united. Under Confederation, England will consult us in all matters which affect our interests, and we shall be able to make ourselves effectually heard in London. In proof pf this I cite from the same writer : — Here is another question which especially affects Canada. In the courae of laat year, the aubaidy of £176,340 per annum, paid to the Cunard vessels plying between Liverpool and the United States, was renewed for a period of six years by the Imperial Government. Another postal subsidy of £78,000 waa juat being granted by the Imperial Government to a new line of ateamera between Galway and the United Statea, in thia case alao without conaulting the interesta of British North America. Thia ia a great injustice, particularly to Canada, for that province has expended large sums in the opening of water communication in the valley ofthe River St. Lawrence, canals which have become valueless from having to compete with the United States routes, encouraged by a subsidy from the Imperial Government of nearly £300,000 per annum , while Canada ou the other hand receives no aid whatever from the Imperial Government, but ia compelled to auhaidize a hne of its own (to attract a feeble ahare of the trade) to the extent of £50,000 per annum." If all the Provincea of British North America had then been united under one 370 single government, we should have been informed that the Imperial Government intended to make that treaty, and our righta would have been reapected ; but as we were but a simple colony, and as there were many interests brought to bear, we could do nothing to protect ourselv'es. I do not desire to weary the House with quotationa, but I trust I ahall be allowed to cite another author, who in addition to showing how limited are the objecta of ambition presented to the inhabit ants of a colony, demonstrates that, though Britiah aubjecta, we are almost on the footing of foreigners in England : — Here again the contiguity of the colonies to the United States suggests disagreeable compari sons. In that great republic, the scope for indi vidual exertion is immense ; and although the rewards of success in the higher walks of life are not generally ao great as under most monarchical governments, some of the " prizes open to all," in that country, are ofa very high order. Many a British North American has seen individuals upon the Uni1,ed Statea side of our boundary, whom he knew from personal acquaintance to be inferior to him in natural abilities, education, wealth, and social standing, raised in a short time to the pre sidency of that republic, a position which would entitle him to rank with the proudest monarchs of Europe. At the same time that British American could not reasonably aspire even to become the governor of his native province ; and if he were to go to England, all the influence which he could command would probably not procure him a pre sentation to his Sovereign. Doea not that ahow that the poaition of a Canadian, or of any other inhabitant of the coloniea, in England ia a poaition of infe riority ? We deaire to remove that infe riority by adopting the plan of Confederation now submitted tu the House. The honorable member for Hochelaga atated that Confeder ation had not been aaked for by the people, but that it waa adopted aa the last resource of a falUng party. He referred, of course, when he expressed that opinion, to the vote of censure he had propoaed last year against the Tache-Macdonald Miniatry. After all his efforts againat that miniatry, the honorable gentleman could do no more than reproach them with an aet committed, or auppoaed to have been committed, five yeara before by another government; and by that means he had succeeded in overthrowing the miniatry. The reault of the vote, brought about by the honorable member, waa very diflerent from what he expected ; it resulted in the Coalition, and the project of Confeder ation now before the House. The honorable gentleman says that the people have not asked for it, but when the Government announced to the House that the basis upon whieh the new ministry had been formed was the Confederation of the provinces, the opposition did not declare that the measure was a bad one. On the contrary, the great majority of the members from Upper and from Lower Canada pronounced themselves in favor of the plan, and promised their support to the Government. The honorable gentleman also asks, who empowered the delegates to meet and prepare a plan of Confederation, and submit it to this House ? I answer, that the power was derived from the expressed sentiments of the House when it consented to the formation of the Govern ment on that basis. The Government felt that they had a perfect ri-ht not only to aasist at the Quebec Confereuce, but to bring it about. And even though there had been no other reason but the difficultiea which had arisen in Canada some years before ; even though there had been no other reaaon than the care of the intereata of the country, we ahould have been juatified thereby in assist ing at the Charlottetown Conference, and in calling the Quebec Conference, at which the measure was adopted by the thirty-three delegates. The honorable gentleman iet faU the accusation that we consented that Canada should have but one vote in the Conference. In making a charge against the Government, as leader of the Opposition, the honorable gentleman ought to have sought to Daae it on more correct information. Hon. Mr. DORION— I understood it to be 80, from what the Preaident of the Council stated. Hon. Sol. Gen. LANGEVIN— Canada had more than one vote ; aud the Preaident ef the Council never stated the contrary. Hon. Mr. DORION— How many were there ? Two ? Hon. Sol. Gen. LANGEVIN— Yea, two ; one for Upper and one for Lower Canada. We could have had more, but that was not the question. We did not go to the Conference to diaouss simple matters of form, nor did we go there to force our views upon othera ; we desired to come to an under standing with the Lower Provinces. It was uot our object to frame a teeble and unjust Constitution, destined, from the very fact, to last but a day. Hence it would not have been right, and we did not desire to take advantage of our position, but we treated 371 -with the provinoes on a footing of equality, not wishing to force our views upon them, but anxious to come to an understanding, and to extend justice to all, Hon. Mr. DORION— The statement I made is not denied, that the votes were given by provinces. Hon. Solicitor Gen. LANGEVIN— It is true ; the Lower Provinces had each one vote, as had Upper and Lower Canada, and it is for us a matter for congratulation. I may be permitted to remind the House, in connection with this matter, ofthe saying of the first Napoleon to one of his ambassa dors, whom he sent to a prince who was feeble, poor, and without an army — that prince was the Pope: "Treat with him as if he had an army of two hundred thousand men at his back ! " Now, that is what we did; we treated Nova Scotia, New Bruns wick and the other provinces- as we desired to be treated ourselves, that is to say, with justice and consideration, and the reault shews that we were right. The honorable gentleman ought to have confined himself to publishing, in his own way, the secrets of the Conference, and refrain from divulging those of the committee appointed last year with respect to constitutional difficulties. I understood that everything was to have remained secret in that committee, except the report made to the House. Hon. Mr. DORION— Does the hon. gentleman accuse me of divulging the secrets of that committee ? Hon. Sol. Gen. LANGEVIN— The hon. gentleman stated that the Hon. Attorney General (Hon. J. A. Macdonald) had constantly acted and voted in that committee against the Confederation project, and that now he presents one himself; and I maintain that he ought not to have said that, for the action of the members of the committee was to have remained secret. If the deliber ations of the committee were to have remained secret, the hon. gentleman must see that he is in a difficult position. The object of that secrecy is evident; it was the same object we had in view in preserving secrecy in the proceedings of the Quebec Conference ; to give increased freedom of opinion to each member, and not, as has been said, to deprive the people of information to whieh they were entitled. We knew that if our proceedings were presented day by day to the people, through the press, we should not have enjoyed that liberty of action and of discussion whioh we required. It is easy to understand, that during the deliborations, a member might one day pronounce against a resolution or some important point, and that the arguments of another member in a contrary sense might make him change his opinion ; but that this might be, it was neces sary to be free from all outside influence, and therefore it was that the Conference sat with closed doors. Hon. Mr. DORION— WUl the hon. member allow me to say a few words ? He has stated that I divulged the secrets of the committee on sectional difficulties. I assert that I never attended the sittings of that committee, that I merely went there on the first day to state that I would not take part in its proceedings, and that I then withdrew and did not again attend. I was opposed to the proceedings of that committee, and I did not attend it; but I learned that the Hon. Attorney General voted, on the last day the committee sat, against Confederation ; and that was all I stated. So that if the secrets of the committee have been revealed, it has not been done by me. Hon. Mr. CAUCHON.— The hon. mem ber for Hochelaga has quite forgotten what passed in the committee. He was present, with the hon. member for Chateauguay (Hon. Mr. Holton), at the commencement of the proceedings of the committee, when it was stated aud agreed that everything that passed in the committee was to be kept secret. I admit that the hon. gentleman refused to take part in the proceedings of the commit tee, but at the same time he knew perfectly well tbat they were to be secret, and he was bound to respect that secrecy. He was aware that the representatives of the press had been excluded. Hon. Mr. DORION.— The hon. gentle man is entirely mistaken, for I was not present. Hon. Sol. Gen. LANGEVIN.— The hon. member for Hochelega must understand that not being myself a member of that com mittee, and knowing that he was a member of it, and that it had been stated in the House that the proceedings were to be secret, I was perfectly justified in blaming him for having spoken. Hon. Mr. DORION.— I never knew that the proceedings of the committee were to be secret. Hon. Sot. Gen. LANGEVIN.— I knew it, and I feel tbat I ^^ perfectly justi- 372 fied in saying what I said ; but after the explanations which the hon. gentleman has just given, I cannot accuse him of having done it otherwise than inadvertently. The honorable member for Hochelaga stated that the memorial submitted by the Government at the time of its formation spoke of a, Con federation other than the one which it now proposes. It will be weU to refer to the docu ment in question in order to ascertain its contents. The memorial consiats of two parts, of which the following ia the first : — The Government are prepared to state that immediately after the prorogation, they will address themselves, in the moat earnest manne r, to the negotiation for a Confederation of all the British North American Provinces. That failing a successful issue to auch negoti ations, they are prepared to pledge themselves to legislation, during the next session of Parliament, for the purpose of remedying' existing difficulties by introducing the Federal principle for Canada alone, coupled with such provisions as will permit the Maritime Provinces and the North-Western territory to be hereafter incorporated into the Canadian system. In other worda, the Government promiaea, in the first part of the memorial in queation, to direct its attention to a Confederation of all the British North American Provinces; and, in the event of its not succeeding in carrying out that object, to turn its attention to a Confederation of the two Canadas. And now here are the contents of the second part : — The Government are prepared to pledge them selves to bring in a meaaure, next session, for the purpose of removing existing difficulties, by intro ducing the Federal principle into Canada, coupled •with auch proviaion as will- permit the Maritime Provincea and the North-Weat territory to be in corporated into the same system of government. And the Government will seek, by sending represfcntativea to the Lower Provinces and to England, to secure the assent of those interests which are beyond the control of our own legia lation, to auch a meaaure as may enable all British North America to be united under a General Legislature based upon the Federal principle. Well, where is the contradiction between these promises and the present action of the GoTernment? We begin with a plan of Confederation for the two Canadas, and sub sequently, finding that the Maritime Pro vinces are ready to enter upon the considera tion of a more extensive union, we have made arrangements to bring them at once into the Confederation. There is no contra diction in that, but it is the same measure and the same plan ; the only difference is, that, instead of admitting them into the union some six or nine months hence, we have admitted them at once. When we approached the question, we found the Maritime Provinces in process of de liberating upon a union amongst them selves ; but the Charlottetown delegates perceived that the Confederation which we proposed to them would be much more advantageous to all the provinces than that upou which they were engaged, and they at once consented to accept our proposition. Accordingly they came to Quebec, and the result of their visit was the plan which has been submitted to this House. The hon. member for Hochelaga has, therefore, no right to reproach us with having altered the plan promised to the House, since it is word for word that which we promised. This measure, as I observed a short time ago, cannot last, unless it protects the interests of all. Now, we have different interests in Lower Canada, in which reside two popula tions differing in origin, differing in religion, and speaking different languages. On the other hand. Upper Canada has a homogeneous population, but one professing different religions, and so it is with respect to the several Maritime Provinces. In these latter provinces, also, we have more than one hun dred thousand fellow countrymen of French origin. Well, Mr. Speaker, we have taken care to protect these different interests, and to preserve the righta of this population, by uniting them in the Confederation to a peo ple numbering a million souls of the same origin as themselves. But we are t.ld : " You wish to form a new nationality." Let us come to an understanding on this word, Mr. Speaker. What we desire and wish, is to defend the general interests of a great country and of a powerful nation, by means of a central power. On the other hand, we do not wish to do away with our different customs, manners and laws ; on the contrary, thoae are precisely what we are desirous of protecting in the most complete manner by means of Confederation. Under the new system there will be no more reason than at present to lose our character as French or English, under the pretext that we should all have the same general in terests ; and our interests 'n relation to race, religion and nationaUty wUl remain as they 373 are at the present time. But they will be better protected under the proposed system, and that again is one of the strongest reasons in favor of Confederation. Not only indeed did we assure ourselves of that protection, but the provinces who were parties to the Confederation desired it also. All local interests will be submitted and left to the de cision of the local legislatures. There will be other exceptions with respect to Lower Canada, and, in fact, all the exceptions in the scheme of Confederation are in favor of Lower Canada. These restrictions in favor of Lower Canada were obtained by the delegates from that province ; but they seek no thanks for their conduct, as they con sider that in so doing they only performed a duty — a duty incumbent on all true patriots and good citizens. All that they now come to this House and ask for, is its sanction to the measure which ensures these privi leges to the populations which they repre sent. I may add that, under Confederation, all questions relating to the colonization of our wild lands, and the disposition and sale of those same lands, our civil laws and all measures of a local nature — in fact every thing which concerns and affects those in terests which are most dear to us as a people, will be reserved for the action of our local legislature ; all our charitable and other institutions -will be protected by the same authority. There is also the question of education. Upon this question, as upon all others, the Lower Canadian delegates have seen to the preservation of certain privileges, and that question has been left to our Local Legislature, so that the Federal Legislature shall not be able to interfere with it. It has been said that with respect to agriculture the power of legislation would be exercised con currently by the Federal Legislature and the local legislatures. But the House is perfectly well aware for what reason that concurrent power was allowed. Every one, indeed, is aware that certain general interests may arise respecting which the intervention of the Central Legislature may be necessary ; but, Mr. Speaker, all interests relating to local agriculture, everything connected with our land will be left under the control of our Lower Canadian Legislature, and this is a point upon which we invariably insisted, and which was never denied us in the Couference. It is thus clear that under Confederation as proposed, the inhabitants of distant parts of the Gonfederfccy, having the privilege of laying their ckisos before their respective local legislatures, will not be put to the great trouble of betaking themselves to the central seat of government, when, for instance, they wish to obtain authority to build a bridge or open a road. I now come, Mr. Speaker, to the subject of the details of the measure, and I shall reply to the observation of the honor able member for Hochelaga on that subject. That honorable gentleman objects to the appointment of the legislative councillors by the Central Government, and adds that those councillors will be appointed by a Tory government, and will necessarily be selected from among the tories. In making that assertion the honorable member did not act with that frankness whioh we are entitled to expect from him. (Hear, hear.) He hardly alluded, if he did so at all, to the clause in the resolutions by which the opposition, in the different parts of the Confederation, are protected. In that clause it is provided that the Central Parliament, in making the appointments in question, shall be careful to watch over the interests of the Op position, as well as over those ofthe Ministerial party. Now, Mr. Speaker, when a govern ment binds itself in this way, is it reasonable and fair to beUeve or to suppose that it wUl break its word which has been so solemnly pledged ? For my part, I am convinced that the members of the present Govemment, should they form part of the Central Gov ernment, would fulfil what has been promised, and would watch over the rights of the Oppo sition as over those of the other party. The honorable member for Hochelaga also pre- itended that the Maritime Provinces had forced upon us the clause which provides that the legislative councUlors in the Gen eral Parliament shall be appointed by the iCrown. Yet, the honorable member right weU knows that the elective principle in our existing Legislative Council was mere ly an experiment, and that in Lower Ca nada we have become tired of the system, not because the councUlors who have been elected by the people are unworthy of the position which they occupy, or because their selection was an unfortunate selection, but because the very nature of the system prevents a large number of men of talent, of men qualified in every respect and worthy to sit in ithe Legislative Council, from presenting them selves for the suffrages of the electors, in con sequence of the trouble, the fatigue and enor mous expense resulting from these electoral contests in enormous divisions. We know that the system has wearied Lower Canada, 374 and that that pro-vince -will approve of our having inserted the clause in question in the resolutions. The vote which took place last night in another place, shews that I am not mistaken in what I assert on this subject. One of the greatest objections which the honorable member for Hochelaga raises to the appointment of the legislative councillors by ¦ the Crown, is that their number will be fixed, and that, by consequence, it wUl prove an obstacle to the decisions and legislation of the Commons House of the Federal Parliament. In a word, the honorable member declares that the Legislative Council, so constituted, will be, to use an English expression, a nuisance. The honorable member should glance back at the past to consider how many councillors ap pointed for life there were in the Legislative Council at the time of the concession of the elective principle, and how many of those said councUlors remain at the present day. He would have ascertained that in eight years the number had diminished by one-half. Of the forty-two or forty-three members which there were then, there now remain but twenty-one or twenty-two. (Hear, hear.) The honor able member for Hochelaga should also have admitted that in those eight years there had been such considerable changes among the elected councillors, that there was uo danger of the Legislative Council not being at least accessible to the people. This diminution gives an average of three members a-year, and if we take the proportion between this diminution and that which would necessarily prevail among a larger number of councillora, we shall find that there wiU be at least five vacancies in each year. The honorable mem ber must then, perceive tbat, if it should hap pen that the Legislative Council should be so opposed to the views of the Lower House as systematically to reject the measures of the popular branch of the Legislature, at the end of a year or perhapa leaa, auch changea would be effected by death or otherwise, that we should immediately have such an infusion of new blood, that any attempt of thia kind could not be repeated for a long time. Beaidea, the Legialative Council wiU not con stitute a separate class like the House of Lords in England. Tbe councillors will come from among the people, with whom they will have interests in common, and it is absurd to suppose that they will be induced to oppose systematically and constantly the meaaures which the Lower House may enact in favor of the people and at their instance. The hon. member for Hochelaga, when on this subject. reproached the Attorney General for Upper Canada with having stated in his opening speech, that if he had to preside over the selection of the legislative councillors, he would see that the beat qualified men were ap pointed. Now, Mr. Speaker, I see nothing in that declaration which is not in the most perfect accordance with the interests of the country, and it is important that the best men from each section of the Confederacy should be called to sit in this important branch of our General Legislature. The honorable member has taken occasion to find fault -with the clause of the resolutions which provides that the lieutenant-governors shall be appoint ed by the Central Government, and sees in it great danger, especially to Lower Canada. Mr. Speaker, I should very much like to know what protection the population of the different provinces derive from the fact that the govemors of the British North American Provinces are sent out to us from England. Under the existing system, our governor is responsible neither to tbe people nor to the House ; he depends entirely upon the Eng lish Government, to whieh he is responsible. Under the system proposed the lieutenants governors will be appointed by the Central Government, to which they will necessarily be responsible for their actions. And in that Government we shall have more than one vote ; we shall be represented in it by our ministers, who will be there to cause every encroachment or arbitrary aet which the lieutenant-governor may allow himself to commit, to be condemn ed. If the Central Government should refuse to do us this juatice, and ahould persist in not recalling any lieutenant-governor who should have so failed in his duty to the population wbich he governed, we should have our sixty- five representatives to protest and to vote at need against a govemment which should dare to act in such a way. In that respect we should have much better guarantees than at present ; and in very truth this is a new privi lege that we have obtained, as the people will have a voice in these appointments, from the fact that we shall have our responsible minis ters in the Central Government, who will be sustained and supported by the members from our section. In allusion to the appointment of the lieutenant-governors, the honorable member for Hochelaga thought proper to make a violent attack upon the Conservative party. He asserted that that party continu ally sought to diminish the liberties and the privileges of the people, whUst the Liberal party labored to extend and ensure those same 375 liberties. Well, Mr. Speaker, I believe the people know their interests as well as the hon orable member for Hochelaga, and that they will not heap reproaches upon us for having given them a Constitution, the object of which is to protect their local and general rights in a much more effectual manner than they are protected under the present system. While thus attacking the Conservative party, the honorable member for Hochelaga did not neglect also to make a slight insinuation against the delegates to the Couference. In fact, he says : — The Speaker of the Legislative Council will also be appointed by the Cro-wn. This is another retrograde atep, and a bit of patronage more for the Government. We have all heard talk of a speech delivered lately in the Island of Prince Edward or in New Brunawick — I forget which — m which the apeaker enumerated the advantages which had been flashed in the eyes of the delegates, while they were here, in the ahape of appointm nts which were to be looked for, as those of judges iu the Court of Appeals, of Speaker of the Legis lative Covmcil, of local governorships, as one of the causes of the unanimity which prevailed among the members of the Couference. The honorable member muat have a very mean opinion of human nature, to auppose that pub lic men, having such great interests entrusted to them, and their own and their country's honor to guard and to keep pure and unsullied in the eyea of the world, would agree to betray and deliver up their country for the love of a poor appointment, even if it were the post of lieutenant-governor or of chief justice. I am willing to believe that that insinuation was a slip of the tongue, and that he is already sorry that it ever escaped from his lips. Another point on which the honorable member for Hochelaga enlarged, is the militia question and the defence of the country. On this head, the honorable member declares that he cannot understand how the union of the provinces is to increase our strength. The experience of the honorable member for Hochelaga and the teachings of history ought, however, to have taught him that a disunited people, scattered over a vast extent of territory, must be an easier conquest than one which is united under a single strong and respected govemment. This brings me to speak of another observation made by the honorable member, who declared that our best policy, in order to avoid aU diffi- ctdty with our neighbors, and escape the evils of a war, would be to remain quiet and sit -with our arms across. The House wUl permit me to quote the very expressions of the honor able member on this subject : — It would be a, piece of foUy for us to raise a standing army, by way of keeping off an invaaion of our frontier. Our best plan la to remain qruet, and to give no pretext to our neighbors for making war on ua. Let a healthy state of public opinion be our shield ; let not the press violently assail the northern authoritiea ; then if war comes without any fault of oura, it will be our duty to do our best to assist the Mother Country in the struggle which would ensue. I think, as the honorable member does, that we ought not to give any juat cause of dissatis faction to our neighbors, and still less attack their frontier; and the present Government have given proof, on aU occasions, that they are disposed to respect the rights and opinions of the American people. But, on the other hand, the honorable member is the first to inform us that the best means of defending ourselves is, not to be ready and accustomed to the use of arms, but to remain unarmed, with our arms across like men of peace — in plain terms, to give ourselves up, bound hand and foot. Now, I wiU ask him a plain ques tion. If he were apprehensive of an attack from a neighbor of his, would he go to him and say, " Here I am, do what you please with me," or would he not rather be prepared to meet an attack ? I rather think that the honorable member would not be long in making up his mind as to which course he would take. Now, that whioh is wise and politic in an individual is equally wise and politic in the case of a nation. We are not desirous of assuming a threatening attitude towards our neighbors. On the contrary, our wish is to live with tbem in peace and quietness. We are anxious not to do the leaat act which can be construed into a threat; buj^we should be lamentably blind if, with the enormous mUi tary armament of our neighbors before our eyes, we looked at this formidable mUitary display with our arms across, and a careless disregard of its greatness in our hearts. Such an attitude would neither be patriotic nor worthy of a nation of free men. The most certain way to avoid an attack and subjugation by our neighbors, to have our independence and our privileges respected, is to shew them that we are prepared to defend them at any cost. The honorable member for Hochelaga has declared that he is prepared to make some sacrifices to defend the cotmtry, but he has not told us how much he is ready to do in that behalf. Perhaps he will let us know at a future time, if we axe called upon to spend money for the purpose. However that may be, I must animadvert on the remarks whioh he has made with regard to tho volunteers. 376 Speaking of the expense which the Govern ment were incurring for the defence of the frontier, he said that 30,000 militiamen would cost thirty mUlions of dollars I The honorable member has a singular way of calculating. The fact is, if we were under the neceaaity of raising an army of 30,000 men, we should not pay them at the rate of a doUar, nor even three-quarters of a dollar, a head. The hon orable member for Hochelaga knows as well as I do that the militia force now on foot and doing duty at the frontier, or in garrison in the interior, was called out in circumstances altogether exceptional, and that the Govem ment were quite unable to control, to the extent they would perhaps have desired, the rate of pay which was to be allowed. The honorable member must likewise be aware that those brave mUitiamen gave the greatest proof of their love of country, and in many oases made very great sacrifices to the detri ment of their own interest and that of their families. Many of them were employds in commercial houses, some in counting-houses, others in workshops, whioh gave them much higher remuneration than they are now re ceiving from the Govemment, and I consider it very bad taste indeed that any should grudge them their paltry pay, under the pre tence that it will be a hea-vy item on the budget. (Hear, hear.) They did not hesi tate, when the country claimed their services, to risk their health and to give up the comforts and delights of home, and I am well assured that the people wUl not grudge them the mis erable half crown which they receive in ex change, and will approve of what the Govern ment has done under the circumstances. The honorable meifiber for Hochelaga reproaches the Government with another misdeed. The truth is that he finds something wrong some short-coming, in every action of the present Administration. Accordingly, aUud ing to the right of veto permitted to the General Government, the honorable member expresses himself in this manner : " Thus, if a measure were passed by a majority of a local legislature, and if, nevertheless, tho ma jority of the section of the General Govern ment representing that particular province were opposed to it, would not that section use aU their influence in the General Govemment tp throw out that measure ?" Before answer ing the honorable member, Mr. Speaker, I think it wUl be weU to refer to the two clauses which relate to that matter. In these clauses we find : — 1. Any hill of the General Pariiament may be reserved in the usual manner for Her Majesty' assent, and any bill of the local legislaturea may, in like manner, be reaerved for the consideration of the Governor General. 2. Any bill paased by the General Parliament ahall be subject to diaallowance by Her Majeaty within two years, aa in the case of billa passed by the legislatures of the aaid provincea hitherto ; and, in like manner, any hill paased by a local legialature shall be aubject to disallowance by the Governor General within one year after the pass ing thereof. WeU, I ask the House, what is wrong in those two clauses ? At present, what is our position when a biU has passed the two Houses of our Legislature ? It is this : the bill is submitted for the sanction of the Govemor General, and in nearly all cases is sanctioned -without being referred to the Imperial Gov ernment. But if, for instance, the bill relates to a divorce, or to any question which con cerns the Imperial Government, or if again it is a measure affecting our relations with our neighbors or any other nation, it is then reserved for Her Majesty's sanction. When a measure is thus reserved, does the honorable member for Hochelaga suppose that the mem bers of the English Government meet to take it into consideration ? Not at all ; there is in the Colonial Office a second or a third class clerk whose particiUar business it is, and who makes his report to the minister. This report decides either the sanction or the disallowance of the measure in question. If the measure is highly interesting to the country and is disallowed, we cannot blame. any one and must submit, as the English ministry are not res ponsible to us. Under the Confederation this danger and inconvenience wiU no longer exist. In a case wherein the Local Government of Lower Canada should pass a law which the Lieutenant-Governor might think fit to re serve for the sanction of the Central Govern ment, if the latter refused their sanction, al though it was demanded by the people of the section, and there were no reason for this re fusal, we should have our sixty-five members in the Central ParUament to protest against it, and who would unite and make combina tions to tui-n out the mmistry who should act in that manner. And you are not to say that those sixty-five members would be powerless against the rest of the House. United in a compact phalanx, they would, without doubt, find support among the members of the other provinces, who would have every reason not to aUow our rights and privileges to be infringed, lest they sbo^ild one day ex perience the game treatment themselves in 377 regard to their o-wn. On the ether hand, Mr. Speaker, the disallowance of a measure sanctioned by the local govemments is limited as to time, and must be declared within twelve months, whereas, under the present system, it can be done within two years. This is a restriction which has been granted in favor of Lower Canada and of all the other provinces of the Confederation ; it is a restriction fa vorable to the people, but the honorable mem ber will refuse, no doubt, to acknowledge that this concession to the people ia our work. Moreover, why should we be afraid of this veto ? In our Local Legislature we assuredly have no intention to be unjust towards a por tion of the population, but propose to act towards them, as in times past, as towards equals ; we intend, in short, to be as just to that part of the population as we were when they were a feeble clement in it. This has not prevented the honorable member for Ho chelaga from telUng the English members from Lower Canada that they must be on their guard and take care of themselves. Well, Mr. Speaker, I shall not offer such an insult to the race to which I belong. The French-Canadians have always acted honor ably towards the other races who live among them, and they wUl certainly not take advan tage now, any more than they have done in times past, of the majority they may have in the Local Legislature to molest or persecute the minority. This is the reason why we have no fear nor misgiving relative to the right of veto. Moreover, we are not to suppose that the intention of the two clauses whieh I have already quoted, is that every bill passed in the local legislatures wUl be reserved for the sanc tion of the Central Government. That re servation will take place only in respect of such measures as are now reserved for Her Majesty's sanction. So that the honorable member for Hochelaga is widely mistaken wheu he reproaches the present Govemment for having agreed to those two clauses. Another question on which the hon. member has also called us to account, relates to the export duties on timber and coals. In clause 29, which relates to the powers of the Federal Parliament, the third section reads as follows : The imposition or regulation of duties of cus toms on importa or exports, except on exports of timber, logs, masts, spars, deala, and sawn lumber from New Branswick, and of coal and other minerals from Nova Scotia. The fact that this power has been conferred on the Government does not imply that it wiU be exercised. The power was granted 49 simply because it might be necessary in certain cases mentioned. Now this is the reason for the second part of the clause which I have just read to the House, and which I cannot better explain than by citing some expressions of a speech by the Hon. the Minister of Finance on the subject. Nevertheless, as there are several honorable members in the House who do not understand English, I think it wUl perhaps be better to explain them in French. Here then was the thought of the Convention ; as in New Brunswick the Gov ernment had found that it was a great disad vantage to collect the duties on timber ac cording to the system formerly adopted, and they had substituted an export duty which superseded aU other dues on that product, it was no more than right that this source of revenue should remain in New Brunswick, to which province it was an object of absolute necessity to defray its local expenses. In Canada we retain, under the new Constitution, our own method of collecting simUar duties. As to New Brunswick, the duty on the article in question is their principal revenue, as coal is almost the sole revenue of Nova Scotia ; and if they had been deprived of them, they would have peremptorily refused to join the Confederation. (Hear, hear.) Their demand was perfectly just, and could not therefore be refused. Moreover, we have no right to com plain, for they leave us all our mines and our lands, and we shall now, as heretofore, collect the proceeda for our own use and profit. The honorable member for Hochelaga says that i t wUl be impossible to administer the affairs of the local legislatures without having recourse to direct taxation ; but a man of his expe rience ought not to have made that assertion. Inatead of attempting to trade on popular prejudice, he ought to have admitted at once that the right granted by the new Constitution of levying direct taxes, is the same that already exists in the present Constitution ; it is the same right that all our municipalities possess. It does not follow that the right will be exercised. But the honorable member knowa well that the people are not in favor of direct taxation, and that they would be unwilling to adopt it as a system, in place of indirect taxes ; hence his attempt to use it as a bug-bear in order to alarm the people of Lower Canada. We must bear in mind that the proceeds of the local revenue of Lower Canada will be employed in defraying local expenses. The Hon. Minister of Finance has stated that in Lower Canada the Ibcal revenue will be $557,000, besides the 80 ¦ cents per 378 head of the population to be paid each year, in half-yearly payments in advance, by the Federal Government. This subsidy will, therefore, amount to $888,000, making a total of $1,446,000 for the local requirements of Lower Canada. I am aware tbat the honor able member bas cast a doubt upon the accuracy of the figures set down by the Hon. Minister of Finance, and attempted to show that the local revenue would not be as large ; but the figures I shall give are taken from the Public Accounts, and I think it will be ad mitted that they must be considered to be correct. At all events, here are the figures I have gathered from an examination of the official documents : — Expenses other than those of the legialature and of the local debt of Lower Canada $ 997,000 Cost of legislation 150,000 I iterest on local debt 90,000 Total $1,237,0U0 Now the revenue of Lower Canada will be as foUows, taking the present figures and without adding the probable increase : — Slide dues | 49,040 Casual 4,000 Quebec Pire Loan 294 Fines, &c 341 Tax on judicial proceedings 91,731 Cullers' fees, me.isuring timber. . . 79,960 Interest on Municipal Loan Fund . . 114,889 Court houses. Lower Canada 25,392 Jury and building fund, L. C 29,710 L. C. mu- icipal fund 38,752 Common school landa 128,340 Tavern liceuaes applied to L. C. municipal fund 3,962 Crown lauds 205,512 Total revenue 771,823 80c per head of population 888,888 1,660,712 Less : — ^Interest on municipal loan fund, and proceeda of school landa 243,129 Leaving a net revenue of. . .$1,417,582 Now it is evident that these figures agree with the calculations of the Honorable Fi nance Minister, less a difference of $20,000 to $25,000. Lower Canada wiU have a reve nue of nearly $1,500,000, and the excess of its revenue over expenditure, according to the calculations of the Honorable the Finance Minister, wiU be $209,000. Hon. Mr. DORION— Why do you deduct the revenue from the Municipal Loan Fund ? Is it because Lower Canada is to be charged with the payment of the Municipal Loan Fund debt? Hon. Sol. Gen. LANGEVIN— I strike out the item of revenue from the com mon school lands, because in the course of time the lands will become exhausted, and the revenue cannot be considered as permanent. Besides, the amount must be added to the Common School Fund, and cannot really be considered as an ordinary source of revenue. It is the same as regards the Municipal Loan Fund, which cannot be considered as per manent revenue, and I wish tb count only the ordinary items of revenue. But, on the other hand, it must be seen that many of the items of revenue will increase in course of time, so that the surplus of revenue over expenditure in Lower Canada will always be considerable. Hon. Mr. DORION — The honorable meniber did not understand my question. I asked him whether Lower Canada will be compelled to pay the municipal debt, and he has not answered. Hon. Sol. Gen. LANGEVIN— I un derstood the honorable gentleman perfectly well, but I make it a rule never to allow my self to be turned aside by interruptions, and I shall not depart from that rule now. (Hear, hear.) The figures I have given are highly important, for they demonstrate that Lower Canada will have a real revenue under the new Constitution — a revenue which is not calculated upon the probable increase and prosperity of the country, but upon the pre sent revenue — of nearly $1,500,000, to meet local expensea. And yet, in the face of these figurea, which are baaed upon the most evi dent facts, honorable members talk of direct taxes. They simply want to frighten the country. But the people will see that there is no danger of direct taxation with the sur plus revenue wc shall have. Direct taxation must be resorted to if Lower Canada should give way to extravagance and spend more than her means, but not otherwise. Lower Canada will have a revenue sufficient to meet all its expenses, unless it follow tbe example of a person with an income of £400, who should expend £1,000. The total expenses of Lower Canada for all purposes, less the cost of legislation and the payment of interest on the local debt, wiU be $997,000, calculating the expenditure upon the present basis. But it ia evident that Lower Canada wiU reduce ita expenditure, audi for instance as the expenditure connected witb the Crown Lands department, and that economy wiU be prac- 379 tised in order, at a future period, to meet the expenses of local works, without rendering it necessary to defer other necessary items of expenditure. The expenses of the local le gislation of Lower Canada may be set down at $150,000, and that is a reasonable estimate if we remember that all questions of general interest arc to be discussed and regulated by the Federal Parliament, and that tbe local legislatures will only have to deal with ques tions of local interest. It is clear that the sessions wUl be far shorter than they are at present, and far less expensive. Every one wiU admit that under the present system long discussions do not take place in the House on private bUls and measures of local interest, whioh are discussed in committees, but that such discussions occur on questions of a gen eral interest, such as railways, taxation, the tariff. Confederation, and that these are the discussions which prolong the seaaion. I say, moreover, that the interest on the portion of the public debt to be aaaigned to us wiU be about $90,000, and that our total yearly ex penditure -will reach $1,237,000, lea-ving us a aurplua revenue of $209,000. I trust Lower Canada wUl have the prudence to set apart a large portion of the $209,000, in order to carry out hereafter local works and improve ments without being compelled to touch its yearly revenue. Mr. dufresne (Iberville)— The sur plus can be put out at interest I (Laughter.) Hon. Sol. Gen. LANGEVIN — The honorable member for Hochelaga feigns great uneasiness as to the position of Lower Canada in the Confederation, as well as to the matter of direct taxes. He spoke at great length as to the prosperous financial position of Lower Canada when she entered the union in 1841 ; but we must remember that before the union the revenue of Lower Canada was but $580,- 000, and that, nevertheless, she was compelled to provide for all local expensea and many itema of general expenae which, under the Confederation, wiU fall within the domain of the Federal Government, auch, for instance, as the payment of the salaries of the judges, etc. Under the Confederation Lower Canada wiU have a surplus of over $200,000 on its local expenditure, even though the preaent ex penditure should not be reduced. The hon orable member for Hochelaga also said that the share of the debt apportioned to Lower Canada, apart from the general debt, would be $4,500,000. He must have made serious errors in his calculations in order to arrive at such a result. The debt of the two Canadas ,at the present njoment, deducting the Sinking Fund, is $67,263,000 ; comparing the calcula tion of the honorable member with that put forth by him in his address to his electors in 1863, 1 find he has arrived at a perfectly differ ent result, and he has no right to accuse others of being in error. Thus, in his addresa he atates that apart from the then debt, $16,- 000,000 would be required for the Interco lonial Railway, and yet he now asserts that it would take twenty millions. Hon. Mr. DORION— It was the Presi dent of the Council who said it. Hon. Sol. Gen. LANGEVIN— The honorable member should not trust to the cal culations of the President of tbo CouncU, since he himself has stated that nothing good can come from this side of the Ilouse. But the fact is the honorable member was anxious not to frighten the people at that time, and therefore it was that ho spoke of sixteen mil lions, whereas now he speaks of twenty. With regard to the amount of the public debt, the Hon. Minister of Finance has given us figures taken from the most reliable sources, and I prefer adopting his figures to following those of the honorable member for Hochelaga. The Hon. Minister of Finance told us that the total debt of the two Canadas, without counting the Sinking Fund, was $67,263,000, and that the Federal Govemment would un dertake $62,500,000. There wUl therefore remain about $4,763,000 to be divided be tween Upper and Lower Canada, and if Lower Canada takes for its share $4,500,000 as the honorable member stated, there will only re main about $263,000 for Upper Canada I I do not see how the honorable gentleman has managed to arrive at such a result, for it is clearly erroneous. Hon. Mr. DORION— Let the Honorable Soliticitor General apply to the Honorable Minister of Finance, and he will get the ex planation. Hon. Solicitor General LANGEVIN — ^It is evident that the honorable member for Hochelaga, in his calculation of the apportion ment of the residue of the debt between Upper and Lower Cauada, has put a 4 in place of a 1 or 2, in the same way that he put 20 in place of 16 in the matter of the Intercolonial Railway. In his anxiety to find fault he sees double, and instead of seeing five miUions to be divided, he s'cs nine. The debt devolving upon Lower Canada will not be $4,500,000. Lower Canada will have only its just share of the tive miUions to be divided. Hon. Mr. DORION — The honorable member has forgotten the explanations of the Honorable Minister of Finance, who stated 380 that the debt incurred for the redemption of the seigniorial tenure, which amounts to three millions, was not included in the general debt. Hon. Solicitor General LANGEVIN — The Minister of Finance stated the whole debt, in his speech at Sherhrooke, at $67,- 263,994. The amount of the debt is $75,- 578,000 ; but it is necessary to deduct the Sinking Fund and cash in bank, $7,132,068, reducing it to $68,445,953; the Minister of Finance also deducted the Common School Fund, which amounts to $1,181,958, and he arrived at the result I have just given, that is to say, that the real debt of Canada is $07,- 263,994. I do not give all the items of the public debt, for I do not think it devolves upon me to prove that the calculations of the Finance Minister are not correct ; that is the task of those who accuse him of error ; and the Public Accounts are there to shew that the Finance Minister has stated nothing but the truth. The honorable member for Ho chelaga has manifested excessive anxiety re specting the financial position of the Confed eration ; but in this case alao we have the aame guarantees as for that of the local gov ernments. He asserted, for instance, that Newfoundland was too poor to contribute to the revenue of the Confederation, and that, in place of receiving anything from that province, we shall be compelled to send down money to prevent the people of the island from perish ing by cold. The honorable gentleman is, nevertheless, well aware that Newfoundland has a large revenue, a revenue of $480,000, and that its expenses are leas than its income. Newfoundland will receive ita share from the Federal chest, but it will also contribute to the general revenue. While I am considering this portion of the honorable gentleman's speech, I must admit that it is tbe strongest argument in behalf of Confederation, from the stand point of the Lower Provinces, that could bo brought forward ; and, for my part, I desire to see thousands of copiea of his speech sent to those provinces, for his object clearly is to shew that the measure would be entirely to their advantage. He has attempted to shew that they will have a larger revenue than they have at present ; but he omitted to state that Lower Canada would have $200,000 over and above her expenses. He knows perfectly well that tbe total revenue of the provinces forms a sum of $14,223,320, for 1864, and that the total expenditure amounted only to $13,350,- 832, so that there is a surplus of $872,488, apart from the revenue from increase of im ports in 1864. The financial position is there fore highly favorable for the formation of a Confederation. The honorable member for Hochelaga stated that New Brunswick would have a surplus of $34,000 over its expendi ture, and he complains, upon that ground, of the subsidy of $63,000 it is proposed to pay that province during ten years. But every one is aware that the subsidy is to be paid because that province gives up all its revenues to the Federal Govemment, except that derived from its export duty on timber ; that was the reason its delegates insisted on the payment of the subsidy during ten years, and they were right. The honorable member alao stated that Prince Edward Ialand was to receive $48,000 more than its expenses. But how comes it then that Prince Edward Is land has hitherto exhibited reluctance ? It must be that that province takes a different view from the honorable member. The truth, however, is that Prince Edward Island, like the other provinces, was treated with justice and equity by the Quebec Con ference, that its local requirements were con sidered, and that a sufficient revenue to pro vide for them was awarded to it. The hon orable member for Hochelaga, who spoke in English, took that opportunity to make a violent appeal to the members from Upper Canada, and told them that there would be enormous imposts, and that two-thirds of the revenue and of the taxes would be paid by them. He did well to speak in English, fbr I am certain that he would not make the same assertion in French in the presence of tbe members from Lower Canada ; he would mako no appeal of that nature, and I regret it, for that would give us the best of reasons for entering into the Confederation ; but I must acknowledge that that statement of the honorable member is not exactly correct, for the basis of the Confederation is justice to all. The honorable member for Hochelaga alao aaid, in order to produce an effect upon the members from Upper Canada, that the extension of the Confederation westward was a farce, " an absurd affair," because the wes tern provinces do not even think of it, and becauae we have no communication with that territory. Hon. Attt. Gen. CARTIER— We must go round Cape Horn 1 (Laughter.) Hon. Sol. Gen. LANGEVIN— Since the question of Confederation has been raised, paperi have arrived from Victoria (Vancou- ver'a Ialand) and from British Columbia, and they ^aU agree in saying that it is to their 381 advantage to unite themselves -with the pro vinces for all general business, reserving to themselves the management of their local af fairs. I quote as follows from one of the journals iu question : — Whatever may be the reault of the preaent at tempts to form a Confederation of the North American Colonies, we may be certain of one thing, and that ia, that but few yeara will pasa away before the accomplishment of a plan of this nature. Haifa dozen provinces lying adjacent to each other, and subject to one and the same power, having different tariffa, exhibit a state of aOaira which, from ita very nature, cannot con tinue long. However, setting aside thia ano maly, we find North American Coloniea for which a more vast political career must be provided. The people have too long labored under the weight of disabilitiea which, hy wounding their pride, have placed them in a humiliating position before the eyes of the whole world. With all the advantagea of responsible government granted to him by the Imperial authorities, after yeara of strife and trials, the colonist hardly possesses one half the national privileges enjoyed by an Englishman. He is deprived of his share of patronage even in cases iu which he is entitled to it and is eminently worthy of it. The position of Colonial Governor is seldom or never granted to him, and in many parts of Her Majesty's dominions he ia forbidden to practise hia profes sion in the courts of justice. We therefore hail this initiative taken by the Canadian Government as the commercement of the regeneration of the colonists, who have hitherto remained in pupilage. With a confederation of colonies extending from one ocean to the other, what limits shall we assign to our greatness, our material progress and our political aspirations? Instead of seeing th^ talent of our statesmen fettered, harassed and restrained within the narrow limits of local poli tics, we shall find its scope extended to a whole continent, while a more vast and natural field will be thrown open to the active and enterprising spirit of the North American Provinces. Want of space prevents our entering upon this question at greater length to-day ; hut we hope that the moveraent will succeed, and -will allow ua at no distant day to emerge from the iaolated and feeble poaition in which we now are, to become a part of the great British North American Confeder- Etion. That is the language of one of the news papers of those colonies. What has the hon. member to say to it ? I hope I shall be forgiven for reading some more extracts from these journals, which we do not read here as much as we ought to do, although they are of a nature to give us information respecting that part of British North America. Another paper says : — There ia then but one course left for the Eng- liah coloniea, and more especially the North American and Australian colonies. Before ten yeara have passed over our heads, the population of the coloniea comprised between Vancouver's Island and Newfoundland will be hardly less than aix millions of souls, occupying a territory as large as that of the United Statea before the civil war, and iu extent greater than three-fourths of the continent of Europe. With telegraphic com munication and railways from one ocean to the other, with a Federal union, in which will be combined and concentrated all the talent of the colonies, and the object of which will be to re preaent the various interests of those colonies, what country has hefore it a more splendid future than thia immenae Confederation, with ita in numerable and inexhaustible resources ? I shall not occupy any further time in quoting from these journals, but I wished to demonstrate that the plan of Confederation is not only a plan of political men in their extremity, as was said by the hon. member for Hochelaga, but that the pro vinces give in their adherence to it, because they perceive that it will be advantageous to them. As to the facUities for communication, I shall quote an excellent authority — Pro fessor Hind — to show that they are not so limited as the hon. member declares them to be. The following is from an essay by Pro fessor Hind on the subject of the North- West Territory : — The Canadian emigrant party assembled at Fort Garry, in June, 1862, travelling thither by Detroit, La Crosse, St. Paul, and Port Abercrombie, by rail, stage and steamer. At Fort Garry they separated into two parties ; the first division con tained about one hundred emigrants, the second division, sixty-five peraons. The first party took the northern route, by Carlton to Edmonton ; the second, the southern trail. At Edmonton they all changed their carts for horses and oxen, and went thence in a straight line to the Leather Pass (lat. 54°), through which they took 130 oxen, and about 70 horses. They sud'ienly found them selves on the head waters of the Fraser river, and so gentle was the ascent that the only means they had of knowing that they had passed the dividing ridge of the Rocky Mountains was by unex pectedly observing the waters of the rivers flow ing to the westward. When in the mountains they killed a few o'xen for proviaiona ; othera were sold to the Indiana at Tfete Jaune Cache, on the Fraser river, and othera were rafted down the Fraser to the forks of the QuesneUe. At Tete-Jaune Cachs a portion of the party separated from the rest, and, with fourteen horses, went acrcss the couutry by an old well-worn trail, to Thompson's river, and thus succeeded in taking their horses from Port Garry through the Rooky Mountains — through a supposed impassable part of British Columbia — to the wintering station ou Thomp- 382 aon'a river for the pack animala of the Britiah Columbia gold-aeekers. With this party of more than 150 people were a womau and three little chUdren. The little children were well cared for, for the emigrants took a cow with them, and theae infant travellera were supplied with milk all the way on theirlong journey to the Leather Paas iu the Rocky Mountains. I look upon the successful journey of the Canadian emi grants in 1862, across the continent, as an event in the history of Central British America of unex ampled importance. It cannot fail to open the eyes of all thinking men to the singular natural featurea of the country which formed the scene of this remarkable journey. Probably there ia no other continuous stretch of country in the world, exceeding 1,000 milea in length, and wholly in a state of nature, which it would he possible for 100 people, including a woman and three children, to traverse during a single abort aeason, and succesa- fully, and indeed easily overcome such apparent ly formidable obstacles as the Rocky Mountains have been supposed to present. On a review of what ia now known of Central British America, the following facts cannot fail to arrest the attention and occupy the thoughts of those who think it worth while to consider its future, and its possible relation to ourselves during the next and succeeding generations. We find in the great basin of Lake Winnipeg an area of cultivable land equal to three timea the area of this province, and equal to the avail able land for agricultural settlement iu the pro vince of Canada. It is watered by great lakes, as large as Lake Ontario ; and by a vast river, which in summer is navigable to within sight of the Rocky Mountains. It containa inexhaustible sup plies of iron, lignite, coal, salt, aud much gold. It has a seaport within 350 miles, via the Nelson River, of Hudson Bay, which is accessible for three months in the year for steamers. This great basin contains the only area left on the American continent where a new nation can spring into existence. This is a complete refutation of the statement made by the hon. member for Hochelaga, that communication with those colonies is impossible. In a part of the lecture from which I have just quoted. Professor Hind says that, between Lake Superior and the Lake of the Woods, the distance is only about 200 mUes, and when once that ia got over, an immenae valley more than a thouaand miles in length is attaioed — a magnificent valley, which may form part of the Confed eracy and pi-ovide an outlet for our popula tion. The hon. member for Hochelaga alao told us, that if we accepted Confederation we should subsequently be drawn into a legislative union; but he well knows that by the Conatitution which ia submitted to this House, the question of a Federal union only is mooted. If at a aubaequent period our^ descendants should, choose to have a legislative union, that will ,be their affair and not oura ; if they do choose to have it, it will be because they^will then be strong enough to have nothing to fear. Further, without entering into all the details relating to the position,^ as to religion, of Lower Canada in the Confederation, I must call attention to the fact that the total popu lation of all the provincea, in 1861, was 3,300,000 souls, and of these the total num ber of Catholics amounted to 1,494,000. Thua they will be numerous enough to protect their religious and other interests ; and those interests will be in a position of safety in the local legislatures. We do not seek to be aUowed privileges which others have not; we only wiah that our rights may be respected as we respect those of others. French-Canadians are not, have never been, and will not become persecutors either in political or religious mattera under the Con federation. I appeal to men belonging to other religions to say whether we have ever proved unjust or persecutors to them. That part of the population of Lower Canada which is of foreign origin will have nothing to fear under the Local Government, any more than we ahall have anything to fear under the Federal Government. But in consideration of what haa been said by the honorable members for Hochelaga and Lot biniere, and ofthe mistrust which they have endeavored to create in the minds of the French-Canadian and Catholic population of Lower Canada, I think the Houae will allow me to read an extract from a letter written by Hia Grace the Archbishop of Halifax, who is likely to underatand the intereata of the CathoUc population quite aa well as the two honorable membera in question. This is the reply which he makes to those who pretended that we had reason to fear inva sion ot the country by the Fenians : — If there be fifty thousand men already pre pared to invade this coantry, as you admit, instead of laboring to keep us in our present disjointed and defenceleas position, you should rather call on all to unite where a single man cannot be dispensed with, and gird on our armor for the rencontre. If responsible government, which the great and good men of this country won for us, be a precious ^heirloom on the lilliputian scale on which we now find it, instead of bartering it away for nothing by Confederation, as you say, we shall rather, in my opinion, add to its lustre and value, and ennoble and enrich it, and make it bound lessly grander and more aecure for ourselvea and those who are to come after us. We obtained 383 responsible government from the Mother Country, in whoae legialative halla we had not a single member to represent us. We are now, ou the contrary, asking to transfer the rich and prized deposit to a place which will he a part only ofour common country, where our voice muat he heard, and where we will have a fuller and fairer repre sentation than the city of London or Liverpool, or Bristol, can boast of in their English House of Commons; and thia is the great difference hetween obtaining from England what we had not, and transferring what we now have, in order to make it more valuable and more available for our own purposes, and by far more secure. Confeder ation, therefore, inatead of depriving us of the privileges of self-government, is the only practical and rehable guarantee for its continuance. We are too small to be warranted in the hope of being ahle to hold it always on the strength of our own resources ; and England, if not too weak, is cer tainly too prudent and too cautious to riak her last shilling and her laat man in a country where, inatead of a population of four milliona, she will have scarcely one-tenth of that number to help her againat the united power of a whole continent. To deny, therefore, the obvioua advantagea of Confederation, you muat first prove that union is not streugth —that England under the heptarchy, and France under the feudal chief and barona, were greater and stronger and happier than they now are as the two gi-eateat nationa of the world. Here, again, ia what he says in answer to those who will have nothing to do with defence, under the pretext that we have nothing to fear from our neighbors : — ^ No nation ever had the power of conqueat that did not use it, or abuse it, at the very first favorable opportunity. All that ia said of the magnanimity and for bearance of mighty nationa, can he explained on the principle of aheer expediency, as the world knowa. The whole face of Europe has been changed, and the dynaatiea of many hundred yeara have heen awept away within our own time, on the jrinciple of might alone— the oldeat, the strongest, and, aa aome would have it, the most sacred of all titles. The thirteen statea of America, with all their professions of self-denial, have been all the time, by money-power, and by war, and by negotiation extending their frontier, until they more than quadrupled their territory within sixty yeara ; and believe it who may, are they now, of their own accord, to come to a full stop ? No ; aa long aa they have the power they muat go onward, for it ia the very nature of power to grip whatever ia within ita rsach. It is not their hoatile feelinga, therefore, hut it ia their power, and only their -power I dread. Tn reply to those who declare that the best defence we can have is no defence at all, he To be fully prepared ia the only practical ' argument that can have weight with a powerful enemy, and make him pauae beforehand and count the coat. And aa the aort of preparation I apeak of ia utterly hopeleaa without the union of the provincea, ao at a moment when public opinion ia being formed on this vital point, as one deeply concerned, I feel it a duty to declare my aelf unequivocally in favour of Confederation as cheaply and aa honorably obtained as possible, but Confederation at all hazards and at all reaaon- able sacrificea. After the most mature consideration, and all the argumenta I have heard on both aidea for the last month, these are my inmoat convictions on the neceaaity and the merita of a measure which alone, under Providence, can secure to us social order and peace, and rational liberty and all the blessings we now enjoy under the mildest govern ment and the hallowed inatitutiona of the freest and happiest country in the world. I will now draw your attention to a short letter from the Roman Catholic Bishop of Newfoundland, which haa not yet been read in the House, but which has juat been pub lished in the newspapers : — St. Johns, Jan. 5th, 1865. My Dear Sir, — In reply to your communication ofthis date, I beg to state that I took no notes of the observations I made at the laat examination of the youth of St. Bonaventure'a College. I distinctly remember, however, that among other arguments I used to impress on parents aud scholars the necessity of education, one was, that according to the tendency of the age, a nnion of all the Britiah North American Provinces would take place, if not immediately, by the force of circum stances in a few years ; and that such a union -would have au extraordinary influence on the rising genei ation in Newfoundland. People were in the habit of saying that education of a high class was useless in this country, aa the field waa too limited. I repudiated that idea altogether. Newfoundlandera were not confined to this island, the British Empire and the Statea were open to them. Wherever the Engliah language waa apoken, there waa an opening for an educated Newfoundlander. But independently of that, the Confederation of the Provincea would open up a home-market for education and talent — a market increaaing every year, and of which at present we can form no conception. The bar, for example, would be open to all ; the Central Legislature would open up a great field for political ability ; the higheat offices of the law and the government would be open to Newfoundlanders as well aa to Canadiana or Nova Scotians ; and I hope that they would be found perfectly qualified by education to take their places, side by side, with their fellow- confederates, and compete for the prizes the Confederation would hold out to them, on terms of perfect equality. I sincerely believe that they could do so, aa, from my experience, I considered that the youth of thia country have aa fine talents, 384 and aa great an adaptability for learning, as I have seen in any part of the world ; and that I never saw, in any part of Europe, boys acquitting them aelvea better (and in many cases not so well) than they did at the preparatory examinations and the preaent exhibition. This, ao far as I recollect, was the substance of the remarks I made on the fact, immediate or prospective, ofthe Provincial Confederation. Thus, whilst some honorable members seek to alarm Lower Canada by asserting that our religion and our nationality are in danger, here we have an Archbishop and a Bishop declaring themselves strongly in favor of Confederation, and who do not see in it any danger for their flocks. And it is well known, even here, that the whole of the estimable and most respected body of the clergy, from those of the highest rank down to the very humblest of their followers, are in favor of Confederation. But the honorable member for Hochelaga, for the purpose of frightening Lower Canada, has told us that we should very soon have a legislative union, and that in that case the fifty French- Canadian membera from Lower Canada would coaleace with the minority of the Federal Parliament, with the view of obatrueting the working ofthe Government. Well, what better proof could we have that we have nothing to fear, and that wc shall not be expoaed to danger under Confedera tion ? Hiatory ia before ua to prove tbat there will alwaya be an oppoaition, and that if an atterapt is made to oppreaa any one section of the Confederatioo. ita repreaentativea would unite in a bodv with tbe minority, and having thereby con stituted a majority, would prevent any injua tice on the part of the Federal Government. I beg to thank the hon. member for having, againat hia will, furniahed me with ao atrong an argument in fiivor of Confederation. The hon. member then appealed to the national passions and the prej udices of race. He told us tbat the Protestant minority in Lower Canada would have to seek protection against the majority of that section. I re peat it, he made that assertion in EngUsh, und would not repeat it in French. But what treatment did the minority receive in Lower Canada when she had a separate Par liament? Did not the French-Canadian majority always exercise liberaUty towards our fellow-countrymen whose origin and re ligion was different from ours 'i Thank God, our race is not a persecuting race ; it has ever been liberal and tolerant. The hon. member for Lotbioifere (Mr. Jolt) has also appealed to the religious and national preju dices of the English minority of Lower Ca nada, but he ought to remember that there is no more danger for the English race in Lower Canada than for any other, and that he was the very last member of the House who ought to appeal to religious or national prejudices. Mr. JOLY — Mr. Speaker, I beg lea veto correct the honorable member. Hon. Sol. Gen. LANGEVIN — The hon. gentleman can speak presently. Mr. JOLY — But any member may cor rect another when he has been made to say tho very reverse of what he did say. Hon. Sol. Gen. LANGEVIN- Mr. Speaker, I call the hon. gentleman to order. I have not found fault with his having spoken for three hours. I did not interrupt him whilat he apoke, and conaequectly I do not choose to be interrupted myself. I do not wish to put words into his mouth whioh he has not uttered, but I wish to have it understood that he made an appeal to the English of Lower Canada, caUing upon them to reflect on tbe fate of their race and their re ligion, when he read anextract frora the report of Lord DtJRHAM, the hon. gentleman took very good care to read it in English only — Mr. JOLY — I protest against the lan guage ofthe hon. 'member, and I claim the right to explai-n. Mr. j. B. E. DORION— It is not so; the hon. member for Lotbiniere did not appeal to religious prejudicea. Mr. JOLY — I deaire to know, Mr. Speaker, whether the hon. member ia to be allowed to asaert that I aaid what I did not say ? Mr. SPEAKER— The hon. member for Lotbiniere is entitled to explain his language, or to correct the Solicitor General after he bas flnished speaking. Hon. Sol. Gkn. LANGEVIN— I have the floor, and I claim to be heard without further interruption. Mr. J. B.E. DORION— Goon; but state correctly what a member may have said. Hon. Sol. Gen. LANGEVIN — The hon. gentleman ia not pleased that an attack should be made on one of his friends, and yet he was by no meana diapleased at the language uaed by the hon. member for Lot biniere laat night when speaking of my colleague the Hon. Attorney General. At all events I will not be interrupted. 385 Mr. j. B. E. DORION— This is the sort of justice to be expected from the other side of the House. Hon. Attt. Gen. CARTIER— You may speak when you like ; you can speak when your turn comes, but we shall not listen to you. Hon. Sol. Gen. LANGEVIN— I assert then that the hon. member for Lotbiniere has appealed to the passions, seeking to have it believed on the one hand that French Ca nadian nationality and the CathoUc religion would be endangered by Confederation, and on the other hand that English nationality and the Protestant religion would be exposed to danger in Lower Canada under the local government. He cited in the English lan guage the report of Lord Durham, to induce the belief that the EngUsh of Lower Canada would never consent to submit to a legisla ture, the majority of which would be French- Canadian ; but for my part I am not of that opinion, and I think that they will submit to it, because they are sure that they will be treated with justice. It ill became that hon. gentleman to make this statement, when he is himself elected for a county ex clusively Catholic, which has not hesitated to entrust him with its interests. He ought not to have made this appeal, as he himself is a living proof of the religious tolerance and liberality of our compatriots. Neither did it become the hon. member for Hoche laga to speak as he did to the same effect, when we have seen a large and important electoral division — the division of Lauren tides — reject a venerable gentleman who presented himself for reelection to the Legislative Council, a man who had been in political life for more than twenty-five yeara, to elect in his place an English Protestant, Mr. Price, although there were not 1,500 Protestants in the whole division, out of a population of 50,000 souls. The election of the member for the county of Megantic (Mr. Irvine) is yet another evidence of the liberality of our fellow-countrymen, the majority of the residents in that county being French-Canadians and Catholics. Mr. j. B. E. DORION— It was not they who sent him here. Hon. Sol. Gen. LANGEVIN— On the contrary, but for their votes he would not have been returned to ParUament for that county. I may further say, Mr. Speaker, that the presence here of the hon. member for Shefford (Hon. Mr. Huntington), that 50 of the member for Chateauguay (Hon. Mr. Holton), and the presence of several other members afford abundant proof of the liberality of our fellow-countrymen, because those honorable membera, although Engliah and Proteatant, repreaent counties the great majority of the population in each of which is French-Canadian and Catholic. The English have always been dealt with more liberally than the hon. member for Hochelaga himself would, perhaps, treat us were he in power. We did not require the aid of the hon. members for Hochelaga and Lotbiniere for the protection of the minorities in the Conference. We were the first to demand that justice should be extended to the Catholics of Upper Canada and the Protest ants of Lower Canada, because we desired to establish a solid work, and not to build on the sand an edifice whioh would crumble to dust the next day. The Euiilish of Lower Canada will not be excited by the appeals of the hon. members, because they know that whatever they can justly claim will be conceded to them without difficulty and with all good will. Mr. Speaker, although it is with great i egret that I have to ask the continued attention of the House, at this late period of the evening, yet such is the great importance of the question before us, that I venture to hope that the House will pardon me for presenting at such length my views on this matter. I may be permitted, I hope, to refute another assertion made by the honorable member for Hochelaga. That honorable member, who has found something to censure in every article of the scheme of Confederation, conceived that he produced an argument that would be irresistible by asserting that tho distribution of the debt was unfair and burdensome to Lower Canada. To give a greater force to this argument, he stated that Lower Canada entered into the union with a debt of $400,000, and that she would leave it with a burden of $30,000,- 000, after having only expended in the interval the sum of $12,000,000 for public works within her limits. This argument is most specious. Supposing that our debt was $400,000, and that to-day it is $30,000,000, the honorable member muat at all events admit that the circumstances also have very much changed. At the time of the union our population was only 030,000, and to-day it is 1,250,000. The honorable member, too, must not forget that at the time of the union our territory only produced 21,000,000 386 bushels of grain, whilst to-day it produces more than 50,000,000 bushels. At the time of the union we had only 1,298 schools, and to-day we have 3,600. At the time of the union these schools were attended only by 39,000 children, whilat to-day they are attended by more than 200,000. At the union the exportations from the ports of Quebec and Montreal amounted to $9,000,- 000 ; to-day they exceed »18,!JOO,000. At the union the number of vessels built annually in our shipyards was 48 only ; now we bave 88, and the tonnage is quadrupled. At the time of the union our importations amounted to $10,000,000, and to-day they reach $45,000,000. At tbe time of the union our exportations and importations amounted to $16,000,000 ; to-day they reach the enormous sum of $87,000,000. And it is with such figures as these before us that we are to be told that we are leaving the union with a debt of $30,000,000 ! At tbe time of the union the revenue arising from the tax on bank-notes, which affords a fair indication of the extent of business done, amounted to $2,200 ; to-day it amounts to $15,800. At the time of the union the number of merchantmen arriving in Quebec every year was 1,000 ; now it is 1,660, and the number of vessels ar riving at all the ports in Lower Canada is 2,463 At the time of the union the tonnage of these vessels was 295,000 tons, and now in the port of Quebec it ia 807,000 tona, and for the whole of Lower Canada 1,041,000 tons. At the time of the union 25,000 sailors arrived here annually; now we have 35,000. In 1839 the revenue of Lower Canada waa $588,00ti; when we enter the Confederacy, although we are not called upon to pay any of the expenditure for general purposes, our revenue will be $1,446,000, that is tossy that we shall bave, under the Confederation, a revenue three times as large as it was at the time of the union ; and instead of having, as we then had, an excess of expenditure amounting to about $80,000, the total expenditure of Lower Ca'-.,ada, under the Confederation, will be about $1,200,000, leaving a aurplua of more than $200,000 ! If then our debt haa increased, we have made most rapid pro gress, and we have received the full value fbr our money. Nor must it be forgotten that at the time of the union of Upper and Lower Canada the country had not a single railway, and now it is traversed from end to end by one of the finest railways on this continent; and ere long, let us hope in the interest of our commerce and our safety, that this iron band will connect the extreme west with the Atlantic ocean. (Hear, hear.) We entered the union when the Welland canal had hardly been begun ; we leave it with one of the most magnificent canal systems the world has ever seen. And then the telegraph lines. At the time of tbe union the only telegraph we had was that one with balls, which so many of us remember, and which used to connect the citadel with the Island of Orleans, and thence communi cated with Grosse Isle by a telegraph of the same kind; now an immense network of telegraph wires places us in daily and immediate communication witb the most remote districts in the different provinces. We leave the union with a debt greater than that with which we entered it, but we leave it with a most perfect system of lighthouses, wharves, piers, slides, in fact with a large number of other public works, whioh have mainly contributed to the settle ment and the prosperity of the country, and which have more than doubled its resources sinee the union. The Grand Trunk Railway alone, for the sixteen millions which it has cost us, has- contributed to increase the value of our lands by millions and millions of dollars, by enhancing the value of our agricultural productions, which are by its means brought with greater ease ti the different markets, and has moreover entailed an expenditure in our midst of more than seventy millions of dollars for its construction alone. Yes, Mr. Speaker, if we entered the union with a debt of four hundred thousand dollars, and if to-day we leave it with a debt of thirty millions of dollars, we can at all events show what we have done with the money, by the immense extent of territory, then uncleared, which is now covered with abundant crops, and which have served to keep in the country, not indeed all the child ren of our farmers, but at least a very great number of them, who but for these impro vements would have emigrated en masse to the neighboring councry. Under the Confedera tion we shall have the control of our lands, and we can settle them so as to retain in our midst all those of the rising generation of both origins who too often take to a foreign land their strong right arms, their energy and devotion. Our mineral lands, so rich and so productive, the opening up of which has 387 hardly been begun, will also be a source of enormous revenue to the country, and will largely contribute to increase the sum ofour population, by keeping in Canada many men who would have gone in search of fortune elsewhere, and it inspires me with still greater confidence that Provid ence has been pleased to join to His other blessings conferred upon us, the possession of mines the richest and perhaps the most abundant in tbe world. As regards our fisheries, they were hardly opened up at the time of the union ; and now, although much more may be done with them, it is, nevertheless, undeniable that every year they are more and more developed, and that they are destined, at no distant period, to be a source of immense revenue to the country. (Hear, hear.) There are many other points of view, Mr. Speaker, from which we might examine the advantages we have derived from the union of the Canadas, in return for the sacrifice we have imposed upon our selves. We might look at the political position we occupied at that period. We should see that we had just come out of a terrible crisis, during which blood had been spilt on battle-fields and elsewhere; our Con stitution had been suspended, ahd the whole country had witnessed scenes such as its inhabitants, hitherto happy and prosperous, had never seen before. Now we enjoy responsible government, one of the most glorious of England's institutiona, and one that has stood the test of ages. This great constitutional guarantee we take with us into the Confederation, into -which we are about to enter in a state of peace and prosperity, with happiness in our midst, and with the conviction thaf this peace, this proaperity and this happiness will be made more lasting than ever. We enter it with the legitimate and patriotic aim of placing our country in a position more worthy of our population and of greater importance, and meriting higher consideration from foreign nations. The hon. member for Hochelaga, not content with calling up past events, has also alluded to the constitution of the courts of law in Lower Canada under the Con federacy. He declared that he did not under stand the meaning of that article of the resolutions which leaves to the Central Gov ernment the appointment of the judges, whUst by another article it is provided that the constitution and maintenance of the courts was entrusted to the Local ParUament. The honorable member should have observed that by the powers conferred on the local govcim- ments. Lower Canada retains all her civil rights, as prescribed by the 17th paragraph of article 48, as foUows : — The adminiatration of juatice, including the constitution, maintenance and organization of the courta, both of civil and criminal juriadictiou, and including alao the procedure in civil mattera. This is a privilege which has been granted to us and which we shall retain, because our civil laws differ from those of the other provinces of the Confederation. This exception, like many others, has been expressly made for the pro tection of us Lower Canadians. It was our desire, as the representatives of Lower Can ada at the Conference, that we should have under the control of our Local Legislature the constitution and organization of our courts of justice, both civil and criminal, so that our legislature might possess full power over our courts, and the right to establish or modify them if it thought expedient. But, on the other hand, the appointment of the judges of these courts had to be given, as it has been, to the Central Government, and the reason of this provision is at once simple, natural and just. In the Confederacy we shall have a Central Parliament and local legislatures. — WeU, I ask any reasonable man, any man of experience, does he think that, with the am bition which must naturally stimulate men of mark and talent to display their powers on the theatre most worthy of their talents, these men wiU consent to enter the local legis latures rather than the Federal ParUament ? Is it not more likely and more reasonable to suppose that they would rather appear and shine on the largest stage, on that in which they can render the greatest service to their country, and where the rewards of their ser vices wUl be the highest? Yes, these men wiU prefer to go to the Central ParUament, and among them there wiU be doubtless many of our most distinguished members of the legal profession. The members of this pro fession are often accused of going into Parlia ment for the purpose of monopolizing the representation. If this be the case at the pres ent time, is it not to be supposed that they wUl do the same thing under Confederation ? Were the appointment of the judges left to the local legislatures, the local governments would be subjected to a pressure which might be brought to bear upon them by the first ad vocate who would attain influence in the Local Legislature. To get rid of an inconvenient member who might have three or.four foUow ers, the Local Government would have to take 388 this troublesome advocate of the seeond, third or fourth order of talent, and place him on the bench, whilst by leaving these appoint ments to the Central Government, we are sat isfied that the selection will be made from men of the highest order of qualifications, that the external and local pressure will not be so great, and that the Government will be in a position to act more freely. It may be re marked, in passing, that in the proposed Con stitution there is ' an article which provides that the judgea of the courts of Lower Can ada shall be appointed from the members of the bar of that section. This exception was only made in favor of Lower Canada, and it is a substantial guarantee for those who fear the proposed system. Besides, tbe honorable member for Hochelaga, who fancies that he sees danger in the powers given to the Central Government, knows by experience, as having himself been a minister of the Crown, that in respect of every appointment of a judge the Cabinet always consults the ministers for the section in which the appointment is to be made, and accepts their choice. The same practice would necessarily be followed by the Central Govemment, who would be forced to respect it, because behind the ministers from each section would be found the members from that section, and behind our ministers for Lower Canada wUl be found the sixty-five members whom we shall have sent to repre sent and protect our interests in the Federal Parliament. It is then advantageous, and there could be no danger in the provision that the judges ahould be appointed by the Central Government; indeed, it is for our interest, and the interest of all, that it should be so. And although it may be looked upon as a secondary consideration, yet it may as well be mentioned now, that by leaving the appoint ment of our judges to the Central Govern ment, we are the gainers by one hundred thousand dollars, which will have to be paid fbr their services by the central power. This consideration -will perhaps have some weight with the honorable member for Hochelaga, who makes such an outcry to alarm the peo ple that we shall be obliged to have recourse to direct taxation to defray the expenses of our Local Legislature. Notwithstanding the advanced hour of the evening, I cannot pass over in silence another observation made by the honorable member, and I beg he wiU ac cord me his undivided attention at the pre sent moment. The honorable gentleman has asked the Government what meaning was to be attached to the word " marriage," where it occurred in the Constitution. He desired to know whether the Government proposed to leave to the Central Government the right of deciding at what age, for example, mar riage might be contracted. I will now an swer the honorable gentleman as categorically as possible, for I am anxious to be under stood, not only in this House, but also by aU those who may hereafter read the report of our proceedings. And first of all I will prove that civil rights form part of those which, by article 43 (paragraph 15) of the resolutions, are guaranteed to Lower Canada. This paragraph reads as follows : — 15. Property and civil rights, excepting those portions thereof assigned to the General Parlia ment. WeU, amongst these rights are all the ci-vil laws of Lower Canada, and among these latter those which relate to marriage; now it was of the highest importance that it shotdd be so under the proposed sys tem, and therefore the members from Lower Canada at the Conference took great care to obtain the reservation to the Local Govern ment of this important right, and in consent ing to allow the word " marriage " after the word "divorce," the delegates have not pro posed to take away with ono hand from the Local Legislature what they had reserved to it by the other. So that the word "marriage," placed where it is among the powers of the Central Parliament, has not the extended signi fication which was sought to be given to it by the honorable member. With the view of being more explicit, I now propose to read how the word marriage is proposed to be understood : — The word marriage has been placed in the draft of the proposed Conatitution to invest the Feder al Parliament with the right of declaring what marriages shall be held and deemed to he valid throughout the whole extent of the Confederacy, without, however, interfering in any particular with the doctrinea or rites of the religious creeds to which the contracting partiea may belong. Thia is a point of great importance, and the French Canadian members ought to rejoice to see that their feUow-countrymeu in the Government have not failed in their duty on a question of so serious a nature. On many other points many of them will doubtless claim that we have not thoroughly fufilled our duty, but as regards the matter in ques tion there can be no difference of opinion, as we have all a common rule to guide us ; and I repeat that they ought to rejoice that their co-religionists in the Conference have not been fouud wanting on this occasion. The whole 389 may be summed up as follows : — The Central Parliament may decide that any marriage contracted in Upper Canada, or in any other of the Confederated Provinces, in accordance with the laws of the country in which it was contracted, although that law might be differ ent from ours, should be deemed valid in Lower Canada in case the parties should come to reside there, and vice versa. Hon. Mr. DORION— There was no ne cessity for that provision. Hon. Sol. Gen. LANGEVIN— I have just proved that it was necessary. Mr. ARCHAMBEAULT- 1 would ask of the Hon. Solicitor General if a marriage contracted in the United States, before a ma gistrate, and not according to canonical laws, would be deemed valid in Lower Canada ? Hon. Sol. Gbn. LANGEVIN— It would be so, from a civil point of view, if it were con tracted in accordance with the laws of the state in which it was celebrated. Mr. GEOFFRION— If a marriage con tracted in the United States is valid here, as a matter of course a marriage contracted in a British colony in conformity with the laws of the country must be valid ; therefore the explanation of the Hon. Solicitor General is inadmissible, or the resolution is useless. Hon. Sol. Gen. LANGEVIN— The hon orable member for Vercheres does not choose to be convinced ; so I -will make no further at tempt to con-vince him. The resolution in question signifies just what I have stated. Hon. Mr. DORION— That is to say, it means nothing at all. Hon. Sol. Gen. LANGEVIN— I beg your pardon, it means that a marriage contracted in no matter what part of the Confederacy, -will be valid in Lower Canada, if contracted according to the laws of the country in which it takes place ; but also, when a marriage is con tracted in any pro-vince contrary to its laws, al though in conformity with the laws bf another province, it -will not be considered valid. Let us now examine the question of divorce. We do not intend either to establish or to recognize a new right ; we do not mean to admit a thing to which we have constantly re fused to assent, but at the Conference the ques tion arose, which legislature should exercise the different powers which already exist in the constitutions of the different provinces. Now, among these powers which have been already and frequently exercised de facto, is this of divorce. As a member of the Conference, without admitting or creating any new right in this behalf, and while deelarii^, as I now do, that as Catholics we acknowledge no power of divorce, I found that we were to decide in what legislative body the authority should be lodged which we found in our Con stitutions. After mature consideration, we resolved to leave it in the Central Legislature, thinking thereby to increase the difficulties of a procedure which is at present so easy. We thought then, as we stUl think, that in this we took the most prudent course. The fol io-wing illustration wiU prove this stiU more forcibly. It is known to the House how zealous a partisan the honorable member for Brome (Mr. Dunkin) is of the cause of tem perance. Well, we will suppose that the honorable gentleman were present as a mem ber of a municipal council in which it was to be decided whether all the tavems in a very populous part of the parish, whioh could not be suppressed, should be banished to a remote corner of the parish, where they would no longer be a temptation and a stumbling-block ; would he not vote for such a measure ? Would he not send them to a place where they would be least accessible to the popular tion, and would he not think he had done a meritorious act, an act worthy of a good friend of tho temperance cause ? Just so in a question of divorce ; the case is exactly analogous. We found this power existing in the constitutions of the different pro vinces, and not being able to get rid of it, we wished to banish it as far from us as pos sible. One thing it would be vain to deny, namely, that although we, as Catholics, do not admit the liberty of divorce, although we hold the marriage bond to be indissoluble, yet there are cases in which we both admit and require the annulling of the marriage tie — ^in cases, for instance, where a marriage has been con tracted within the prohibited degrees without the necessary dispensations. An instance of this occurred very recently. A few months since, an individual belonging to my county, who had married a young girl of a neighboring parish, without being aware at the time of his marriage of the relationship which existed between him and his wife, found out several months afterwards that they were related in such a degree that they required a dispensa^ tion from the bishop. That dispensation had not been obtained. He spoke of it to his wife, who refused to apply for a dispensation, as a step towards the legal celebration of their marriage. It became necessary, therefore, to have the marriage annulled. The affair was brought before the Ecclesiastical Court, and, after a minute investigation, the diocesan 390 bishop gave judgment, declaring the marriage null in a canonical sense. Regarded in a civil point of view, the marriage was still valid until it should have been declared null by a civil tribunal. It became necessary, there fore, to carry the cause before the Superior Court, and my honorable friend, the member for Beauce, who took the case in hand with his usual zeal and legal address, obtained from the court, after a suitable inciuiry, a judgment declaring the marriage null in a civil sense, and ordering that it should be registered as Such in all places where it should be needful. If this affair had occurred in Upper Canada, what recourse would the parties have had ? The parties being Catholics, the case would have been brought before the bishop, who Would also have declared the marriage null after suitable inquiry; bnt the cause would not have had the same conclusion in the civil court, particularly had it depended on certain irapediments which have force in Lower Can ada, but none in Upper Canada. It would have become necessary to go to Parliament to pray fbr an act, which, in a Catholic point of view, would be a mere decree of separation, but which the Parliament would have termed an act of divorce. This power to grant a separation is therefore necessarily vested in the Parliament, by whatever name such separ ation may be designated, and we are not to be reproached for the interpretation which others may give to such name, different from that which we assign to it. I thought it - right to make myself understood on thia point, because I do not choose that people should be able to say we are afraid of explain ing our position with regard to the question of divorce and marriage, and I believe that I have shown that our position is consistent with our religious laws and our principles as Catholics. I regret that I have dwelt so long on the matters touched upon by the honorable meinber for Hochelaga ; but after his speech, and considering the position he assumed, he must have expected an answer. And, hav ing done with him, I come to the honorable member for Lotbiniere (Mr. Joly). That honorable member has endeavored to prove that all confederations die of consumption, and has cited, in support of his argument, the political condition of the Spanish republics of South America. Why did he say nothing of the Germanic Confederation ? If he had men tioned that, he would ha-ve had to confess that it had proved a success. He would have said also that it is a monarchical confederation consistihg of thirty-one states, the chiefs of which are almost all kings, prince*, or electors. There are not more than four or five states which are not monarchical, and, nevertheless, that confederation works well. Mr. GEOFFRION— Are they sovereign Hon. Sol. Gen. LANGEVIN— Yes, but they have done what we are now about to do. In order to hold their own among tbe great pow ers, and not to be at the mercy of the first who might choose to assail their rights, they have united their strength because they con ceived that " union is strength." When the honorable member for Lotbiniere was talking about the weakness inherent in confedera tions, he ought to have recoUected late events in Italy, as they happened a few years ago. He should have called to mind the conquests of Garibaldi, and reflected that if he had suc ceeded in overcoming a number of petty states and even the kingdom of Naples for the bene fit ofthe king of Sardinia, it was because the Italian States, being divided as he found them, were too weak to resist an invasion, and that, had they been confederated, neither Gari baldi nor Victor Emmanuel would ever have succeeded in getting the upper hand of them. And what happened when the little states of Italy were banded together with Piedmont ? This happened — when Garibaldi aimed at making conquests on his own account, he soon found out that the small states no longer ex isted, and that a large state had been formed out of their fragments, the consequence of which was that he was beaten at Aspramcnte. The honorable member says that our connection with the Mother Country, under the Confedera tion, would be one of paper, and that the Up per Canadians would detest the Lower Cana dians. Mr. GEOFFRION- He did not say that such things would be, but that such might be the effect of Confederation. Hon. Sol. Gen. LANGEVIN — Why should such be the effect of Confederation ? INo questions will be decided in the Federal Parliament but such as relate to general mat ters. Local matters will not be treated of, nor questions of race, of reUgion, or of insti tutions peculiar to the several provinces, and consequently there can be no collision of opinions on such questions. Such a fear, therefore, is quite unfounded. The honorable member says, moreover, that the Confedera tion would lead rather to divide than to unite us, that civil war would be the result, and that the Upper Canadians would rather be annexed to the United States than subjected to Lower 391 Canadian rule. For my part, I believe no such thing. I believe that the Upper Cana- diaps are too loyal to wish to be annexed to the United States. They are quite disposed to trade -with their neighbors, to keep up a good understanding with them, but they do not -wish to be annexed. The honorable member for Lotbiniere, getting over his fears and predictions and speaking of the sixty-five members from Lower Canada, put the fol lowing question — " Suppose the population in Lower Canada should in ten years increase thirty-four per cent., whUe that of the other provinces increases only thirty per cent., would it not be unjust to Lower Canada that the number of ite representatives should remain the same, should stiU be aixty-five, while that of the other provinces will be in creased ; while in any case the number of re presentatives from the other provinces is not to be diminished unless their population should diminish five per cent ?" This point is very important, but we must observe that whatever the increase of the population in the other provinces, the part from Lower Canada is fixed and known. Thus, for instance, if the population of Upper Can ada should increase more than that of Lower Canada, the latter will always have sixty-five members, the other provinces re ceiving such increased number of repre sentatives as their increased population would entitle them to. But the resolutions do not prevent Lower Canada from having more than sixty-five representatives, if its population should increase faster than that of the other provinces. The French translation of these resolutions is erroneous, for it says that " for the purpose of determining the number of representatives from each province at the end of every decennial census. Lower Canada shall never have either more or less than sixty-five representatives," whereas the English version of the resolutions, which is the official version, says : " Lower Canada shall always be assigned sixty-five members." This does not mean that Lower Canada can never have more than sixty-five members, but that it can not have less than .sixty-five mem bers. That is, I think, a categorical answer to the honorable member's objection. If the honorai)le member for Lotbiniere were here, I would answer him on other points ; but 1 wUl not attack him as he last night attacked the Honorable Attorney General. The honorable member compared the conduct of the Honor able Attorney General, m moving tho scheme of Confederation, to that of a man who, pre siding over a savings bank in which every ono came to deposit his savings, having confidence in his honesty, should some fine day turn de faulter, betray their confidence and ruin them. He said that the honesty of the Hon orable Attorney General for Lower Canada had yielded to the temptation of honors, titles and places, and that he had forgotten all his obligations and duties and sold his feUow- citi zens. I shall not retort on the honorable member, but I shaU take upon me to continue the comparison made by him and tell him that the Honorable Attorney General has in fact opened a savings bank and has in-vited every one to deposit in it his title deeds and his savings. Accordingly we find one day the seigniors and the censitaires coming and de positing in his keeping their title deeds, their lands and aU they have. These the Honor able Attomey General takes and deposits in his bank, and when he is called upon to re store them, when he is required to account for them, he pays as never man paid before him ; to the censitaires, instead of their title deeds burthened with mortg^es, hds et ventes, corvies and all sorts of services and duties, he restores their lands free from all burthens ; whUe to the seigniors he tenders the full value of their seigniorial rights ; and if this day there are seigniors holding a hundred thousand acres of land in fuU right of proper ty, which they can safely estimate as worth eight dollars per acre, they may thank the Honorable the Attorney General for Lower Canada for it. The suitors in our courta come next; they were oppressed with enor mous costs, which amounted almost to a de nial of justice ; they went and deposited their briefs, declarations and pleas in the Honor able Attorney General's savings bank, and he retumed them, giving them at the same time judicial decentralisation and diminhahed costs of suit. Thus it is that he has earned the re- spec; and gratitude of his fellow-citizens. It is the same as regards the inhabitants of the townships ; in place of their ambiguous civil law, he gave them a civil law applying to the whole of Lower Canada, the townships as well as the seigniories; and all are now unanimous in expressions of gratitude towards the Hon. Atty. General for extricating them from the judicial chaos iu which they were involved. Pleaders, advocates, in fact the whole country, deposit^ ed their complaints in the Hon. Atty. General's hands, and at the end of five years he has given them a civil code which will do honor to Lower Canada, honor to the three distinguish ed Codification Commissioners selected by the 392 Hon. Atty. General, whose name it wUl trans mit to posterity. Yes, his name is attached to that work, and the attacks of the honorable member for Lotbiniere wUl hardly prevent that name from going down to our descend ants surrounded with the respect of all those who know the services he has rendered to his country. But the Hon. Attomey General for Lower Canada was not satisfied with these services. In the midst of a terrible crisis his country confided to him aU its interests, aU its rights, all its institutions, its nationality, its religion, in a word everything it held most dear. The Hon. Attomey General received the whole trust into his safe and faithful keep ing, and when caUed upon to render an ac count, he exhibited aU these interests, rights, institutions, our nationality and religion, in feet everything that the people held dear, and restored them guaranteed, protected and sur rounded by every safeguard, in the Confeder ation of the British North American Pro-vin ces, He has been a faithful banker, and haa not betrayed the trust reposed in him, he has honestly paid his debt ; rich and poor, seigniors and censitaires, advocates and pleaders, aU have received their due, and the banker is blessed from one end of the province to the other. The honorable member says that the Hon. Attorney General -will have his reward. He is right ; my honorable colleague wUl have his reward — his day will come as did that of the late Sir Louis Htpolite Lafontaine. When that eminent citizen held the position occupied to-day by the Hon. Attorney General, the opposition heaped upon him the same re proaches, the same insults that are now offered to my honorable friend. He was accused of being a tr.utor to his country ; it was broadly asserted that he was selling his feUow-citizens, aud that he was the enemy of his race. Nevertheless, that defender of the rights and institutions of Lower Canada had but one ambition, namely, to secure for his fellow- countrymen the splendid position they have ever sinee occupied. He let the disaffected continue to asaail him, and before deacending into the tomb, he had the happineaa of aeeing hia patriotic efforts and the purity and noble ness of his intentions acknowledged ; and when hia mortal remains were carried to their last resting place, all classes of his fellow-citizens were eager in doing honor to that great man, and all united in blessing the memory of one who was no longer accused of being a traitor, but whose name was universally admitted to be deserving of a place among the very highest in parliamentary history. It -will be the same as regards the present Hon. Attomey General for Lower Canada. He wiU have his reward ; his day wiU come, not in the sense of the honorable member for Lotbiniere, who makes use of the expression as a menace, but by re taining that confidence of his feUow-citizens which appears so completely incomprehensible to the honorable member for Lotbiniere. That he should enjoy the oonfidence of his fellow-citizens appears to me a thing perfectly natural, and not by any means difficult to understand. During his whole life, like Sir Lours Htpolite Lafontaine, the present Honorable Attomey General for Lower Canada has devoted himself to protecting and pro moting the material and religious interests of his fellow-countrymen, and he has now crowned his gigantic labors by the important share he has had in the framing of the new Constitution, which is destined to govern one of the greatest empires in the world, a Coji- stitution beneath which all races and aU reli gions will find protection and respect. He wiU have his reward, and like his predecessor, his name will go down to posterity as one of the greatest benefactors of his country. I regret, Mr. Speaker, having spoken at such great length, but the importance of the ques tion must be my excuse for having, perhaps, wearied the House. After the long speeches delivered by the honoiable member for Hoche laga and the honorable member for Lotbiniere, it was impossible for me to curtaU my re marks, when I had to refute and destroy all the hazardous assertions of tbe two honorable members. I think I have said enough to show that the honorable member for Hoche laga made a false prediction when he said that the day on which Confederation was accom plished would be an evil day for Lower Canada. No,Mr. Speaker, the Confederation, I am per fectly convinced, will afford the best possible guarantee for our institutions, our language and all that we hold dearest iu the world ; un der its protection we shall be strong against the common enemy, we shall advance rapidly in the way of prosperity, and when we with draw from the arena it wiU be with the con solation of leaving to our descendants an in heritance worthy of a free people. (Cheers.) Mr. JOLY— WhUe the Honorable Solici tor General was speaking, I twice asked per mission to explain what I had stated, because I thought he had not understood me; but from the manner in wliich he has acted towards me, twice refusing me the opportunity of explaining myself, I am now convinced that he perfectly well understood what I wished to 393 say, and that he merely pretended not to understand it. I am not wiUing to bear tho onus of the charge he has brouglit against me. I shaU take the opportunity of setting hira right, and of explaining what I said yesterday. I am quite ready to bear accusations of impru dence or ignorance, but I will not stand a charge of cowardice, and that is the accusation I find in the Joumal de Quihec ofthis day. The hon orable member charges me with having ap pealed to the reUgious prejudices of the French-Canadians. I did not appeal to their religious prejudices ; I made an appeal to their national prejudices. I look upon this measure of Confederation as fatal to the in terests of Lower Canada, and I consider that that was the only means of breaking the bands by which the French-Canadians are bound, and of arousing them while it is yet time ; that is what I have done and ever will do. But I am not the man to appeal to the national prejudices of the EngUsh after my appeal to the French-Canadians, as the honorable mem ber has stated. I shall now state the manner in which I explained the passage from Lord Durham's report. I said it was impossible that both races should long continue to live in peace ; that some day or other the two nationalities would come into coUision; that judgment would be given by the Federal Parliament, in which the English were to have the majority, and from which the French-Canadians could not hope to obtain justice. I did not state that the French- Canadians would act unjustly towards the British; but I said that the latter might complain, and that the Federal Legislature would be caUed upon to decide as to whether injustice had been done ; and that its sympa thies must be distrusted. I added that the Federal ParUament being composed of a ma^ jority of English members, would be inclined to give ear to the English of Lower Canada rather than to the French-Canadians. I than #quoted Lord Durham's report to prove that English-Canadians would never wilUngly sub mit to the majority in Lower Canada. And in citing the two extracts from Lord Dur- BAm's report, I first read them in English and then translated them into French. How can it be asserted, therefore, that I made use of the English language in order to make an appeal to the prejudices of the Anglo-Canar dians? The charge is absurd. Far from desiring to influence them in that sense, I read the passages with hesitation, because I felt that the British ought to blush for them. There was no need of quoting the passages referred to in order to tell the English of Lower Canada what their sentiments were ; I cited them in order to make them known to the French Canadians. With regard to the second passage, I could not cite it in order to attract the sympathies of the British, since it was an extract against them. How can it be shown that I cited that passage for the pur pose of exciting the national prejudices of the English ? I appealed neither to the re ligious prejudices of the Canadians, nor to the national prejudices of the English. Hon. Mr. CAUCHON— I did not say that the honorable member for Lotbiniere was a coward ; I found fault with him for treating the question incompletely and putting it in a wrong light. With reference to the quotations, the honorable member did not translate into French that part in which it was stated that the English wUl never submit to a French Canadian majority. Mr. JOLY— I translated it word for word, Hon. Mr. CAUCHON— I did not hear it, but I am quite willing to take his word. The honorable member has said that he wished to excite the national prejudices of the French- Canadians, but that is quite as bad as exciting religious prejudices. All I said was, that he was wrong in exciting the prejudices of the one race against the other. Hon. Sol. Gen. LANGEVIN— After the explanations given by the honorable member for Lotbiniere, and though he has stated in a moment of excitement that he felt convinced that when I made an accusation against him I knew it was not weU founded, I must con clude that I was mistaken, and that he trans lated his quotations from Lord Durham's report unknown to me. I take his word in the matter, but I am quite sure that if he had not been excited at the moment, he would not have charged me with wilfully misrepresent ing him. Mr. JOLY — I am the more clear in my recollection of having translated the passage from Lord Durham's report, from the fact that I had great difficulty in translating it, as the House will remember. Mr. DUNKIN— And in fact your transla tion was not quite correct, particularly as to the word British. _ Mr. JOLY— But since the Honorable So licitor General has given explanations and has withdrawn what he had said against me, I feel it to be my duty to state that I regret to have expressed myself so strongly with refer ence to him. The debate was then adjourned. 394 Wednesdat, Fehruary 22, 1865. Hon. Mr. HOLTON— Before the debate is resumed, I would enquire whether it is the purpose of the Government to bring down the promised meaaure on the aubject of education in Lower Canada, before the Houae is invited to pass finally the scheme of Confederation now under discusaion ? I need not say to honorable gentlemen that this is a matter wbich is regarded with a great deal of interest by a very large portion of the people of Lower Canada, and I think that before my hon.jrable friend for Montreal Centre (Hon. Mr. Rose) proceeds to take part in this debate, the position of the Government upon that question should be clearly defined. Hon. Attt. Gen. CARTIER — Al though the question is not put regularly, I have no hesitation in answering- the •honorable gentleman. My anawer is the anawer which haa already been given by my honorable friend the member for Sherhrooke (Hon. Mr. Galt^. ^ Hon. Mr. HOLTON — The honorable member for Sherhrooke has not atated to the House — Hon. Attt. Gen. CARTIER— Order ! Hon. Mr. HOLTON— I think I am quite in order, on the calling of the Orders of the Day, to put a queation of thia kind. But I rise again, simply to give notice to the honorable gentleman that I shall renew the queation on the Orders of the Day being called to-morrow evening. I do think it is dealing slightingly with the House and with the country for honorable gentlemen to refuse to state explicitly what are their pur poses with regard to this important question — whether or not their measure is to be brought down before a final vote is taken on Confederation. I shall renew the queation to-morrow. Hon. Attt, Gen. CARTIER— The ques tion haa been answered twice, but the Government are ready to answer it again, if the honorable gentleman ao deairea, Hon. Mr, ROSE theu reaumed tbe adjourned debate. He said — Before I pro ceed, Mr. Speaker, to offer any obaervationa on the motion in your hand, I wiah to acknowledge very cordially the conaideration which the Houae evinced laat eveoing during my abaence, and eapecially to acknowledge the courteay of my honorable friend from Lambton, (Mr. A. Mackenzie), my honor able friend from Chateauguay (Hon. Mr. Holton), and my honorable friend the mem ber for Brome (Mr. Dunkin). I certainly feel indebted to them for the manner in which they yielded me precedence, at the request of the honorable member for Mont- morenci (Hon. Mr. Cauchon) ; and I shall endeavour to shew my sense of the kindness of the House, by not trespassing on its indul gence any longer than I can possibly help. And, before I offer any remarks on the ques tion itself, I would premise this, that I hope in the courae of them I shall not give utter ance to a single expression which would seem to reflect upon those who entertain strong opinions adverse to the proposition now before the House. Far be it from me to deprecate discussion — discussion of the amplest, widest, and most searching charac ter, on this important question. And far be it from me, by the use of a single word, to impute to those honorable members, who feel it their duty to oppose this measure, any absence of patriotism. I believe they are actuated by the same ardent desire for the good of the country, which I claim for myself. (Hear, hear.) It is right that the question should be considered in all its details — not merely in its bearings on the present state of parties, but as respects its influence in all time to come on the country at large. And with that view I think it ought to be calmly, deliberately and patiently investigated, and instead of deprecating the fullest and most ample discussion, I trust the opportunity will be afforded to every honorable member of this House to speak on it in his own way and at his own time. (Hear, hear.) WeU, sir, I presume there are few who, in the abstract, would not favour the idea of a union between a number of small states adjoining each other, rather than that they should remain isolated under separate governments. To the idea of union in the abstract between states so circum stanced, I take it no one would be opposed. But the principal ground of the opposition which is made to the present scheme by a not unimportant class, is this — that the mere abstract principle of union does not apply with full force to colonies circumstanced as Canada, New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, Prince Edward Island, and Newfoundland — the five colonies that are parties to this scheme. It is feared by many that it is the first step towards independence — that it must tend to loosen tbe ties now existing between this and the mother country — that it changes our relations, and will produce a strength inco m- 39S patible -with Imperial sovereignty — that it may probably result in not only severing our connection with the Mother Country, but in forcing us to a union with the neighbouring republic. That I have heard urged as the greatest and most important objection which strikes at the root of the proceedings of the Quebec Conference. I know that many of the opponente of the scheme entertain the apprehension — perhaps the conviction — that that will be the result. (Hear, hear.) Far from deprecating, then, the discussion ofthat question in its broadest aspect, I think all of U8 who desire to perpetuate our connection with England, should listen calmly and anx iously to the objections which are urged by those who conscientiously entertain those opinions which are not only blameless, but entitled to respect. (Hear, hear.) Now, I do not deny that the effect of the present movement may be to change the character of the actual relations which subsist between this province and the Mother Country. Hon. Mr. HOLTON— Hear ! hear I Hon. Mr. ROSE— I do not deny that the result may be to change the character of thesejrelations. But I maintain, and I hope I shaU be able to satisfy the House of the soundness of the position I take, that the change will be of that character, that, instead of loosening or weakening or diminishing the connection with the Mother Country, it will tend to put it on a footing which will make it stronger and more enduring. (Hear, hear.) Though I believe these relations will be somewhat changed, and we may have to consider what new aspect they will present, I believe this measure is forced upon us by the necessities of our position. The irre sistible force of passing events will not allow us to stand still. But, whether by this inevitable change the country shall gradually lose its dependent or protected character and assume more of the Federal relation, consti tuting this a territorial division of the Em pire, I believe it will result in placing those relations on a surer and more steadfast foot ing, and that we will still acknowledge the same Sovereign, owe the same fealty, and maiatain the same veneration for the Engliah Constitution and name. (Hear, hear.) It cannot be denied that there is a state of pub lic opinion growing up in England just now — not confined, as it was a few years ago, to a class of extreme theorists — that the connec tion which subsists between the colonies — Canada especially — and the Mother Country, is a source of expense and danger. It can not be denied that that kind of opinion has obtained a good deal more force within the last few years, than those of us who desire to maintain the connection between these colo nies and England would like that it should have obtained ; and we cannot ignore the consequencea which that increasing volume of public opinion may have upon the legisla tion of England. Then there is another consideration which makes this subject stand out more prominently before the people of England at the present time than otherwise it would do, and that is, the state of 'its relations with the republic adjoining us, and the enormous military power which the United States have shewn, within the last two or three years, that they possesa. In consequence of this, the state of opinion in England which might have been confined for many years perhaps to mere theory, has been brought to a head. It ia not now merely a queation of abatract opinion, whether under such and such circumstances it would be better for this and other colonies to assume a more independent attitude towards Eng land. But it has been pressed with unex pected abruptness to a practical issue before the people of England, and they have now to consider what the relations of Great Britain to these colonies would be, in the event of war with the United States ; how far, in that event, it would be possible to protect this remote dependency of the em pire, to avoid disaster to the English flag, - and at a distance of 3,000 miles to maintain the prowess of the English name. It is this which has forced public opinion so strongly in England to a consideration of the actual relations between this oountry and the Mother Country, and it is this state of facts with which we must deal now. It is, I repeat, past discussing as a mere abstract matter of doctrine. We must look our situation in the face. We must consider the eventual ities which press themselves on our notice, and it is our bounden duty to see whether we cannot find in the union ofthese colonies security to ourselves and a source of strength to the Empire at large. (Hear, hear.) With respect, then, to the objections urged by those who consider that this scheme may be leading us along a new and untrodden path towards independence, or at least to a more independent relation with reference to England than that in which we now stand towards her, I say we cannot forget that our 396 surroundings are of a peculiar kind. I would grant that there would be much force in the argument that it might sever our ties with England, if we were circumstanced as some of the smaller sfates of Europe — if we had, for example, a state like Switzerland on the one side and any of the German Princi palities on the other. If we had, as our neighbours, states like Belgium or Den mark — if, so situated, we were one of a num ber of small states, I grant you that, if a union ¦^ uo gthese provinces were to take place, it '" lead possibly to that independence W' 1 tbose who oppose the scheme now fear, and which for one, I hope from my heart, may never occur. (Hear, hear.) No doubt, if situated in tbat way — if we had no powerful and over-awing neighbor, such a political combination as we now propoae might lead to practical independence of England. If we were a mere congeries of small states, with no powerful neighbor, that result which we so much deprecate might possibly follow. We should, probably, in time aspire to have foreign relations of our own, to have our own army and navy, and to seek for that complete emancipation which with communities as with individuals, matu rity prompts. But independence in a atate must always be relative, and none of us can expect to live to see the day wheu the British dominions in this part of the world wUl be peopled to such an extent, and become so powerful, that they can afford to be indepen dent of England. We must, from the neceaaitiea of our geographical position — so long as the United States continue to be as powerful as they are; and even if they were divided into two or three portions — we must always find in them a source ot danger which must force upon ua a dependence on England. We find, I repeat, in our poaition towarda the United Statea, and in the great preponderating power they poaaeaa, a guarantee that we need not apprehend that there will be anything like practical independence of England aaaerted by the colonies of North America ; because, from the very necesaitiea of our poaition, we shall alwaya have to look up to her for protection and aid. I say nothing of the aentiment of loyalty, of that attachment to the British Crown, that love for the person of the Sovereign which we all possess so strongly and try to instill into our childrec. I do not apeak for the moment of the pride we all have in the constitution of England, and iu our being identified, in aU our associations and feelings, with the glory of the English name. I put aside, for the moment, the inatinct of attachment to the Mother Country, and I put the caae on this ground alone, that the necessity of self-preservation will for centuries — for generations at all events — prevent the possibility of these colonies asserting their independence of England, unless it were, indeed, to become a portion of the republic which adjoins us, and to which, I think, it is neither the interest nor the inclination of any member of this House to become united. (Hear, hear.) What ever fate may be in store for us, that is a destiny to which no one looks with favor. The genius and instincts of our people are monarchical and conservative — theirs level ling and democratic. But, sir, though I have said that I was disposed to look upon this question — the danger of Federation rendering us independent of England, quite apart from the considerations that spring out of sentiments of loyalty, yet I believe that those attachments will be increased tenfold by this propoaed union. We will have a sentiment of nationality among ourselvea ; and I con,9ider it to be one of the first duties of a atatesman to inculcate that national feeling that givea the people a atrong interest in their country's welfare. We will feel that we have something here, in the way of constitutional bleasinga due to our union with England, and that we have atable material interesta which we can transmit to our poaterity. We ahall feel very differently from what we uow do aa colonicts, apart and alienated from each other, and in some respects jealous of one another. With a stable government and a strong central power controlling an immense territory, we shaU be able to enter upon a well conaidered, well deviaed and attractive system of immigration. (Hear, hear.) We will be enabled shortly, I trust, to commence to bring from the Mother Country a conatant stream of inimigra- tion by which those sentiments of attachment to horae and devotion to the Crown wiU be perpetuated. And in thia continuous recruiting of our population I aee one of the great elements we will have to look to for the perpetuation of the attachment of this country to the Crown We have not, in tirae past, been able to devise or carry out any exteusive ayatesi of immigration. We could not, iu our divided and isolated condition, offer thoae attractions which we 397 will be enabled to offer to emigrahta when we can throw open to them the choice of a large country, a country which will have a name and a nationality — a country in which they and we can all feel an honeat pride. (Hear, hear.) They will not feel as we have hitherto done, doubtful how long our system of constitutional government, and the bless ings flowing from it, were to last. I trust, therefore, that the formation of a stable government, and the devising of a system of emigration that will be attractive to the people of England, Ireland and Scotland, wiU do a vast deal to keep up that conatant attachment to the Mother Country which we aU desire to see strengthened. (Hear, hear.) We shall then not only have the ordinary motive to present to emigrants, of self- interest — the opportunity to make money merely, but tbe other interest cf attachment in a permanent way, to the soil, without a deaire to go back to the Mother Country after a competence ahall have been gained — for the aentiment of nationality will aoon take root among us. Now, sir, I think that so far as the danger of union leading to independence is concerned, those who are most earnest in desiring to perpetuate the union, need not have much apprehension . But, it may be said, that from the necessity of our position there is danger that we shall feel our material and commercial ioteresis so strongly bound up with the United States, and feel so reliant in our own strength as a great country, tbat we will eventually form a closer alliance with that republic than any of us desire, and that the formation of the present union is the first atep towards annexation. I do not think we need have any fears on that score. I do not think our interests would lead us in that direction. At the present time we are almoat entirely dependent upon the United States commer cially. We are dependent upoa them for an outlet to the ocean during the winter , months. If they choose to suspend the : bonding system, or by a system of consular I certificates make it practically useless; if •¦ they abolish the reciprocity treaty, and carry the passport system to a greater degree of stringency, we should feel our dependence upon that country even in a greater and much more practical way than we do at the 1 present time. And perhaps, sir, it is worth [ our while to consider whether this may not j be the real motive which dictates the policy tliby' ate now pursuing I (Hear, hear.) But, give us this Intercolonial Railway, affording us communication with Halifax and St John at all seasons of the year, and we shall be independent of the tfnited States commercially as we now are politically. We may not find this route to the ocean more economical, especially in the winter season, than to go through the United States, but if we have a route of our own to which we may resort, in case of necessity, our neighbors will find it to their interest to give us the use of their channela of communication at a cheaper rate. (Hear, hear.) Thffg»i*l not do that if they find we have nif '' .r outlet ; but if we are prepared with an n- ing for our produce, all the year round, they will not act so foolishly as to deprive them selves of the opportunity of carrying our goods through their territory. It we had this railway built, we should have no need to fear the withdrawal of the bonding system, or the continuance of the passport system, because they would be inflicting upon them selves a greater injury by so doing than upon us. Let me say then once more that I can perceive no one element of danger to us in this union. I certainly did try, during the many months in which the process of incuba tion of Federation, if I may so speak, was going en — I certainly did try to bring as unprejudiced and dispassionate a consiilera- tion to its various phases as I possibly could. I looked upon it, I confess, with suapicion at the outset ; I felt it was launching us into an unknown future, and that we were changing a system, that we got along with in comparatively a satisfactory manner, for one that was, in some of its aspects, new under the British Constitution. I say now, however, after giving to it the fullest consid eration I am capable of giving, that I do not see, in any one respect, how the cementing of these colonies together in the bonds of government can tend to make us independent of Great Britain If I did, I should feel it my duty to offer it a most uncompromising opposition, and to endeavor to defeat it by every meana in my power. But, sir, I do see a great danger the other way. I see that if we remain a mere congeries of isolated colo nies, hostile in some degree to each others' interests, there is danger ahead. I see that danger existing and threatening us in the United States. I see that if we do not unite aud form one Central Government, giving it the power to diret^t all tho physical energies of this country in whatever direc tion may be necessary, that we are liable to be overrun by that power. And this I co«- 398 ceive to be one of the very strongest argu ments in favor of the Confederation of the provinces, that it enables us to prepare appropriate defences along the whole frontier of our country. I believe I shall be able to ahow in a very few words, that if we are united, we shall afford to England sufficient inducemente for undertaking those worka of defence that are essential to our own security and to the maintenance of her flag on this continent for all time to come, and that if Wife "te go into this union, aa I believe we will we siulII be placed iu a poaition to defend our selves successfully from attack. And this, sir, unfortunately, is not a contingency which we can hope will never occur. It is nut now a mere vague possibility in a far diatant future which we have to consider. So long as the preaent civil war continuea, it ia impoaaible tor any man to foreaee that auch national complicatiooa will not ariae aa may at any diiy or hour involve ua in actual hoatilitioa. It ia impoaaible for any prudent man to diaregard that dark threat ening cloud that haa been gathering upon our bordera, ready at almoat any mom ent to burat upon ua. It behoves us therefore to loae no time, if we believe tbat union offera a guar.iutee of aafety against the dangers that threaten us — it becomea important that we lose no time to consummate the proposed union, in order that tbe General Govern ment may put ua at once in a proper atate of defence. The public opinion of England, aa we unhappily know, does not at the pre aent tirae tend very much to warrant the Imperial Government in making any large expenditure for colonial purposea. There muat be aome reaaonable proapect, that if expenditure ia incurred in erecting neceaaary worka of defence, thoae works will be actually available, when conatruoted, to protect the country upon whose frontier they are eatab liahed. We cannot expect England to enter upon a courae of expenditure for fortifica tiona on our frontier, unlesa ahe baa the aaau rance of our ability with her aid to hold those works against attacks from a hoatile power. I believe that if tbe prop aed plan of union breaka down — fails to get the assent of the several provinces — and we go back to our old condition of aeparate coloniea, we shall so discourage the statesmen of England in reference to us, that they will feel very much embarrassed with the prospect before them. (Hear, bear.) Hon. Mr. HOLTON— No, no! Mr. DUNKIN — What reason have you to think so ? Hon. Mr. ROSE— I believe that the formation of a government, having the power to direct the whole strength of five colonies would greatly add to our security. Who doubts that there is greater security in such a union than in isolation, each with aeparate interests and having no common action ? I think the advantages of union for purposes of defence are not properly appreciated. (Hear, hear.) What would be the atrength of Great Britain if there was a separate government for England, another for Wales, another for Ireland, and another for Scot land ; each directing ita owns military and naval power ? If one national government had not called forth all the national materials and elements of strength, would the prowess of her fieet or of her armies have been what it ia ? Ia there no benefit in having a power that can bring to bear the whole military atrength at any point deaired ? If there is not, then I am willing to say that this argu ment which carries conviction to my mind is of no value whatever. Hon. Mr. HOLTON— Are we uot all connected with the Mother Country ? Hon. Mr. ROSE— Certainly. Hon. Mr. HOLTON— Then what stronger could we be by merely having a mere politi cal connection with others ? It would give ua no more men. Hon. Mr. ROSE — Does my honorable friend think that if each province had con trol of its own militia force. Nova Scotia and Ne wf oun dland and Prince Edward Island con trol over the seamen, and Canada the direction of her own militia, that the military forces of theae five provinces could be brought to bear with the same advantage as if they were under the control of one central power ? We could not take tbem out of their own provinces contrary to the laws of those pro vinces. Is it of no importance to make the hardy seamen of Newfoundland, or the people of Nova Scotia and New Brunswick feel, that if a hostile force lands at Sarnia in Upper Canada, their territory and their soil are invaded, or their independence threatened I We should have embroilment and difficulty among ourselves at the very moment when united action in presenting a bold front to the enemy was necesaary to our safety. If we go back to our old con dition of isolation, now that the solemn approval of the Mother Country has been 399 given to this proposition of Federation (and her statesmen see in this a great source of strength in enabling her to avert a war, and a ready means of defending the country) — do you believe that tbose statesmen will look kindly upon the act ? Even my honorable friend from Hochelaga has admitted tbat there must be in that case a dissolution of the union between Upper and Lower Canada. That honorable gentleman stated in his speech the other night, that if this measure failed there must be Federation between the Canadas ; and what, I would ask, is that but a dissolution of the present union ? It is certainly a dissolution of the present union to adopt some new Federative system as be tween Upper and Lower Canada. But does the honorable gentleman think tliat he will find in the separation of these provinces an element of strength ? Hon. Mr. HOLTON— That is what you propose to do now. Hon. Mr. ROSE— No, Mr. Speaker, I do not propose to do anything of the kind, as my honorable friend will acknowledge, if he will but bring his mind, dispassionately and earnestly, to the consideration of the question. There is no one more capable of seeing and appreciating the important fea tures of this scheme than he. But my hon. friend has strong feelings, and sometimes is led away by preconceived jealousies or fears; I say that if my honorable friend will bring his strong intellect to bear on this scheme, he will find in it none of those dangers which ordinarily attach to the Federal form of governmeut. I must now say a few more words in reference to the question of our ability to provide for the defences of the country. I have already stated — and I must apologise to the House for the digres sion which has been forced upon me — that I do not beUeve that, if we reverted back to our original condition, the Imperial Govern ment would be as much disposed to aid us in the construction of the works necessary for our defence, as if they found that in the presence of a common danger we were united together to repel the common enemy. I say the Imperial Government would not in such a case be actuated simply by a regard to the expense of constructing these works — in whioh I understand the Lower Provinces will have to bear a share — but she would be deterred from so doing by the further con sideration, that when built, these works would be less likely to serve the purpose they were designed to_ accomplish, namely, to enable the country to be efficiently de fended. It is one thing to have a population of four millions united under one common head, and enabled to direct all their ener gies to the point of danger ; and it is another thing to have a number of separate unita, with no common action^ each under a different government, and distracted and aeparate at the very time when they ought to be moat united. (Hear, hear.) What we have to guard againat is tbia : a audden conqueat or aurprise, for which wo might be unprepared. I believe myself that, if works can be constructed, by means of which we can effectually defend the country against audden attack, no one will grudge the ex pense. Of courae they will cost no incon siderable aum ; but I hope, aa I believe my hon. friend the Finance Minister, although he may be preaaed for other purpoaea, will not heaitate to recommend the appropriation neceaaary for the purpoae, and to impose increased taxation for that purpose. (Hear, hear.) For I am sure that no member of this house, nor man in this country, would hesitate, if need were, to put their hands in their pockets and give a tenth of their sub stance for the construction of the works re quired to protect the country from the rav ages of the aggressor, and to secure to ourselves a perpetuation of the inestimable blessings derived from our living under tho British flag. (Hear, hear.) I am the more earnest in this question on account of the observations which have been made by my honorable friend the member for Hochelaga, (Hon. Mr. Dorion) observations which I am sure he did not mean to have such an effect, but which nevertheless have a most mischievous tendency. That hon. gentleman stated that our true policy was, in fact, neu trality ; that it was hopeless for us to attempt to defend ourselves against the overwhelming force which the United States could bring to bear against us, and that with our small population we would be very much in the same position as Denmark when opposed to the armies of Austria and Prussia. Indeed, he almost went as far as a gentleman who no longer holds a seat in this Houae, when he said that " the best armament for Canada was no armament at all." I am sure that had the honorable gentleman felt that any injuiy would be done — any false impression produced on the public mind — by the use of observations like these, he would not have employed them at all. But I may say that they aU tended to this end — the taking away 40O ofthat confidence we should have in our energy and resources, by telling us that the prospect before us is practically a hopeless one — that there is no use undertaking pubUc works for our defence — no use in organizing, training, and arming our militia — that all attempts to hold our own would be fruitless on account ofour inability to bring sufficient able-bodied men in the field to cope with the force to which we might be opposed. AVhy, sir, is it by such a tone as that, that you can keep up the spirit of the people for the defence of the country, by telling us tbat four millions of British subjects could offer no resistance whatever, oven when backed by the power of England, against the United Statea or the greatest military nation on earth ? I assert that even were we to be put in the unfortunate position ot Denmark, ninety-nine out of every hundred of our population would bo prepared to make a stand, hopeless though it might be for them, and to resist until the last foot of ground was wrested from us. (Hear, hear.) But if England, in case of war, should, for the first time in her history, decline to come to the aid of her colonies, future generations would not glory in the name of being English men, as the past had such juat reason to do. Sure I am, however, that we ahould occupy no hopeleaa or iaolated poaition. It is in order that the observations of my honorable friend the member for Hochelaga may in some respect be counteracted, that I would yet treapass upon the indulgence ol the House for a few minutes more on this head. We know that in modern warfare, if you can erect certain works which will compel an enemy to sit down before them, so as to prevent him from making progress into the country, you may by such means defend it for many months. I do not know what the scheme of the defence commissioners may be. But it is well known that they expreas the conviction that by the conatruction of certain worka at varioua pointa, the manning of which ia quite within the compass of our power, we can arrest tbe progrea.'* of an invader for many months, we can compel him to expend and exhaust hia atrength before theae works, and we could throw embarraasmenta in his way such as would take an invading force many months to over come. Becauae honorable membera must remember that it is impossible to have more than a six months' campaign in thia country. And supposing you were to erect works | before which an enemy was compelled to sit down in the month of May, it would take him fully three months before he could bring up his supplies and siege train and protect his communications, and by the time he was ready to make a determined attack, he would be overtaken by winter, be com pelled to raise tbe siege and go into winter quarters. In truth our winters are our safeguard and defence. Such, at any rate, is the opinion of military men. During six months only are military operations practi- c.ible in this country, and thus whatever is done one season has to be abandoned on the spproach of winter and begun again the following spring. If therefore we can only, by manning certain salient points in the country, prevent the progress of invasion, we are safe. Sudden conquest would be impos sible — delay and impediments are everything. Every one knows the history of the celebra ted Unes of Torres Vedras, which extended thirty miles, and by means of which the invasion with which Napoleon terrified Eu rope was first rolled back. These lines were defended by but a small number of men, and they corapelled Napoleon to retire before thom. Then, on this continent we have the experience of Richmond, which haa forced the army of General Grant to become a mere corps of obaervation, and of Charles ton which has fallen at last, but after what delay and at what cost ! Going to the Crimea, we see Scbastopol defying for months and months the joint efforts of Eng land and France. If we therefore can keep the invader from our doors for a certain number of months, our Canadian winter wiU do tbe rest, whilst English ships would be engaged in harassing their coasts aud iu the destruction of Aoierican commerce in every sea. I, therefore, entreat those who are dis posed to take a desponding view of the question to consider these things. An ag- gressi7e warfare in this country is one thing, and a defensive warfare another, and a very different. (Hear, hear.) Our country is well adapted for defensive purposes, and it is next to impossible to subdue us. The badness of our roads, the difficulties presented by our winters, our deep, broad and unford able rivers, and the raeans we could estabUsh for keeping an enemy in check at certain points for the necessary time, would enable us to resist the United States with all their power and resources. No man can have a greater appreciation of the enormous re- 401 sources, of the courage, of the varied appli ances, of everything in fact which tends to success in war than I have of the American nation. I have seen them in the field, and seen them at sea. They certainly have come out as a military nation in such a way as almost to astonish the world. But, sir, let us consider a little more closely what their circumstances are in other respects. No doubt they have an enormoua navy, but that very navy would not be moro than sufficient to defend their harbora in case of a war with England. It is not because I imagine their ships could not cope singly with British ships — it is not because I believe their men are lacking in skill or courage, or that they are unable to buUd sufficient vessels — but they lack this — and it is a consideration which we cannot and ought not to forget — that they have not a si ogle harbor in any sea, except on their own coast, to refit their vessels. (Hear, hear.) Supposing them to send a fleet of 20 or 30 ships to England. An Hon. MEMBER— Orlreland (Laugh ter.) Hon. Mr. ROSE— If they went to Ire land, they would have a very warm reception indeed. (Hear, hear.) No doubt they could get there with the coal they could carry ; but where would they get the coal to bring them back or to carry on operations there ? SaiUng vessels now-a-days can do nothing ; aU vessels of war have to be propelled by steam ; and there is no neutral port in the world where in time of war with England, the navy of the United States would be able to obtain aasiatance. For I take it for grant ed tb-dt in the event of a war with England the United Statea would have few allies. And, as I before remarked, there is not a port in the world whjre they could get an ounce of coal or any addition to their armament. In this would cou.siat our great safety. They have no porte in the Indian Sea, in the east Atlan tic, the Mediterranean or China seas, and it is simply because men of war could not exist without coaling and refitting that the navy ofthe Uuited States would be placed at so great disadvantage. It is contrary to interna tional law, as the House is weU aware, that the ships of a belligeient nation can be received iu a neutral port and assisted, beyond what is requiied by the dictate^ of humanity, to enable them to face the elemente. They would be unable, i say, to get a single man, a ton of coal, an ounce of gunpowder, or a pound of iron, in 52 any neutral port, and I would like to know what the United Statea could do in a war with England ao cireurastanced? (Hear, hear.) Well, air, this is one state of things. But there is yet another view to be taken of the question. Do we not know that in the event supposed, wo .should find the Atlantic coaat awarmingwith Engliah veaaela carrying moveable columns of troops, menacing and landing at every point. The navy of Eng land, the arsenals of England, the purse of England, and all the appliances and require ments of war would be brought to bear upon and be available to us in such a struggle. We should not suffer from the lack of the material of war, which is perhaps the very thing of all other things the most essential . In all respects we should be in a very different position from the Confederate States at the preaent day. We should simply be required to hold our own, while the United States were being harassed on the seaboard, and then when the winter came we should be compara tively safe. Think of the exhaustion to the United States of such a war ! I have ventured to say thus much with a view of counteracting, so far as my feeble observations will enable me to do, the remarks of the hon. member for Hoche laga the otber night, because I think it waa a most pernicioua, unmanly, and un patriotic view of the caae to be allowed to be disaeminated, when wo ought to do all we can to encourage and evoke a military apirit on the part of the youth of thia couutry. NeutraUty haa been spoken of. But how could neutrality be poaaible in a struggle between England and the United Statea ? The country which cannot put forth an effort to defend itaelf occupiea a deapicable poaition, and forfeita on the score of weakneas, even the wretched privilege of being neutral. How ia it poasible, I ao-ain ask, that we could maintain a neutral position in auch a war ? We could not. We should have to make common cause with one or the other. Do you suppose the United Statea would allow ua to atand 3.810.6 Hon. Mr. HOLTON— It ia the Miniater of Agriculture' a opinion that we should hold a neutral poaition. Hon. Mr. ^lioGBE — Not at all. Hon. Mr. ROSE— I have listened with pleasure to many apeechea from my hon. friend th-e Minister of Agriculture, but I have never heard one in which it was 402 implied that we ought to remain neutral in the event of a war between England and the United States. My hon. friend is well able to speak for himself; but I must say I have no recollection of hearing him utter so unpatriotic a sentiment. Hon. Mr. HOLTON— Hear ! hear ! Hon. Mr. ROSE— I have no doubt that what my hon. friend meant by neu trality was this, that we, as part of the British Empire, were bound to remain neutral as between the two warring sections of the neighboring states. Hon. Mr. HOLTON— No; tho hon. gentleman expressly gave it as his opinion that the neutrality of this country should be guaranteed by treaty, the same as is the case with Belgium and Switzerland. Hon. Mr. McGEE— I had this idea once. It was shortly after my hon. frien 1 op posite (Hon. Mr. Holton) declared in favor of annexation. (Laughter.) Hon. Mr. HOLTON— The sentiment has been expressed by the hon. gentleman within the last two or three years. Hon. Mr. ROSE — Events have changed very much within the last two or three ears, and we have got to deal now, not with mere party questions only, but with events that are transpiring, I will not say any thing further on this point, however, as my hon. friend from Hochelaga is not in his place, although the hon. member for Cha teauguay chivalrously defends him in his absence. I say then, Mr. Speaker, that while I do not wish to exaggerate the dan ger, I cannot be insensible to it. It is a danger, dark, imminent and overwhelming, and if it was on that consideration alone, 1 say that I find in this question of deience sufficient not only to justify me in voting for the scheme now before the House, but to demand of me every effort to carry it into effect. (Hear, hear.) If we ahow that we are in earnest on this question of defence, England will be encouraged to come to our assistance in time of danger, knowing that she can look to us not only to contribute towards the construction of works, but effec tually to defend them when constructed. (Hear, hear.) If we show England that she can dep3nd on a population of four mil lions, with a strength wielded from a com mon centre, she will be encouraged to aid us with both men and material of war, and wUl lend us the assistance necessary to protect ourselves both now and in time to come. Let me repeat then, sir, that were there nothing in addition to the great considera tions to which I have adverted, I should go heartily for these resolutions, and I should be disposed to overlook many inequalities and some objectionable features which I see in the scheme. I do not intend to advert in detail to these, for I feel that I have to con sider this question as a whole, and that unless I see objections to it, so great and numerous as to make me vote against it as a whole, it is useless to criticise that which I cannot mend. The scheme is in the nature of a treaty. It will not do to cavil at this or at that ; we must either accept it or reject it. (Hear, hear.) I see the difficul ties of the scheme, and the inequalities of it; but we must not complain if one colony gets a few thousand dollars more than another, or if one colony has to aasume more of tho debt than another. Unless I saw enough in the whole scheme to make me vote against it, I think it would be a mere waste of time to cavil at these small matters. Because without the consent of all the other colonies they cannot be altered, and on the whole there is no reason why the whole scheme should be rejected, and these slight inequaUties will soon right themselves. (Hear, hear.) There is one thing I would ask the House to consider —apart from the higher consideration of defence ; apart from the cementing of our union with England, which I beUeve is involved in the adoption of this measure, and apart from the chance of our falUng a prey to the United States — and it is this : are we prepared, looking at Canada alone, to go back to the old state of things of twelve or eighteen months ago ? Are we wiUing to revert to the chronic state of crisis in whioh we constantly found our selves for years past ? (Hear, hear.) This House and the whole Government had lost the confidence of the country, and the most lamentable recriminations and difficulties ex isted on the floor of this chamber. Indeed at the time of which I speak affairs were in such a state as to make every man with any feeling of self-reapect diapoaed to abandon public life. I think we aee in thia alone enough to reconcile us to the change, and I believe I should see sufficient cause in this to induce me to vote for a change in our political system. The dread of going back to the past, the apprehension leat old party cries should be revived, and the fear lest difficultiea in which we i'nuid ouraelves might be perpetuated, would impel me to vote forthescheme now in ourhands. (Hear, hear.) 403 Having said so mueh on the general policy of the union, I might have been dis posed to enter at greater length into it, were it not that I wished to keep faith with my honorable friend from Lambton ; but, having said so much on the higher grounds which recommend this scheme, I will now say a few words in reference to the objections which have been urged against its character, viz., because it embraces those elements of disruption which are to be found in every federal union. That is the objec tion of many who, while they would be will ing to go for a purely legislative union, object to one of a federal character. They see in it that which tends to a disruption, and collision with the Central Government. Now, sir, I do not deny that if a legislative union, pure and simple, had been practicable, I, for one, would have preferred it ; but I cannot dis guise from myself that it was, and is at pre sent, utterly impracticable, and I cannot help expressing my astonishment and extreme gratification, that five colonies which had been for so many years separate from each other, had so many separate and distinct interests and local differences, should come together and agree upou such a scheme. Remembering the difficulties tbat had to be encountered in the shape of local interests, personal ambition, and separate governments, I certainly am sur prised at the result, and I cannot withhold from the gentlemen who conducted these negociations, the highest praise for the man ner in which they overcame the difficulties that met them at every step, and for the spirit in which they sunk their own personal differences and interests in preparing this scheme of Confederation. (Hear, hear.) It is remarkable that a proposition having so few of the objections of a Federal system, should have been assented to by the_ repre sentatives of five distinct colonies, which had heretofore been alien, practically indepen dent, not only of each other, but almost of England, and almost hostile to each other. (Hear, hear.) There had been very much to keep these colonies apart, and very little to bring them together, and the success which has attended their efforts speaks well for those statesmen who applied their minds earnestly to the work of union. (Hear, Hon. Mr. HOLTON— The necessity was urgent. Hon. Mr. ROSE— I quite understand the ironical spirit of my honorable friend — but the work of Confederation was no less one of vital importance to the country. I cannot help saying that I had no sympathy with the hon. member for Hochelaga (Hon. Mr. Dorion), the other evening, in his historical detail of all the antecedent difficul ties which existed in our political position. That honorable gentleman told us what were the opinions of this member and of that one at different periods, — commented on their inconsistency, and claimed that he himself had always been firm in his opposition to the project. Well, sir, I do not care what may have been the views of one member or of another, or how inconsistent he may have been. What we have to consider is the scheme which is now presented to us. Let us forget the past; let us forget former differences ; do not let us revive former animosities ! Let us consider that we are starting fresh in life, or as the term has been uaed, that we are entering upon a new era of national existence. (Hear, hear.) Let us caat aside past recriminations and look at the merits of this scheme. I have only to say that a man who does not change his opinions is a very unsafe man indeed to guide the affairs of a nation. Such a man is Uke an old siga-post ou a road that is no longer used for travel. The sign-post is consistent enough, it remains where it had been placed, but though a type of consistency it is an emblem of error. (Hear, hear.) The hon. member for Hochelaga spoke of his consistency and the inconsistency of others, but he was Uke the aigu-poat which pointed out a road that exiated twenty years ago, but which no one could now pasa over. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) I think, therefore, that inatead of endeavoring to find objectiona to this scheme becauae it does not give us a legislative instead ot a federal union, we ought to acknowledge the sacrifices of those men who came together and prepared it. (Hear, hear.) Whatever may be said of our desire to get out of our own constitutional difficulties in Canada, that objection oannot be urged against the public men of the Lower Provinces. Newfoundland has not been in a state of crisis like us, and New Brunswick has been tolerably faithful to Mr. TiLLET for the last ten years ; a short time ago the Premier of Nova Scotia had a majority of thirty in a very small house— everything went on swimmingly there, and even Prince Edward Island waa not much ^ embarrassed. 404 A VOICE— It wanted a railway. Hon. -Mr. ROSE— Lot us attribute no motives, but rather give to every man who has had anything to do with this measure the credit of being actuated by the utmost patriotism and singleness of purpose. Such, I believe, ia the feeling of nine-tentha — yes, ninety-nine hundredths ofthe people ofthis country. What inducement, except thoae of a public kind, had my hon. friend the Preaident of tho Couneii, or the Attorney General Weat to, enter the same Government, if it waa not with a view to bring about a union of the coloniea ? And even if they had only in view to heal the conatitutional difficulties of the past, we ought to be deeply thankful to them. (Hear, hear.) I stated that I would not criticise many of the features of tbis schema; but there are two main features which to my judgment commend themselves to the attention of every one who has any doubts aa to the atability of the system, and which give ua a sufficient guarantee, that guarantee whioh federal uniona have hereto fore Wanted, namely : that it eatablishea a central authority which it will not be within the power of any of the looal govemmenta to interfere with or rise up againat. It appeara to me that they have avoided the errora into which the iramera of the Araeri ean Conatitution not unnaturally fell. They have evidently learnt aomething from the teachings of the past, and profited by the experience afforded in the case of our Ame rican neighbors They havo established this Central Governraent, giving it auch powera, and so defining the powers of the local governments, that it will be impossible for any Local Parliament to interfere with the central power in such a manner as to be detrimental to the interests of the whole. The great advantage which I see in the scheme is this, that the powers granted to the local governments are strictly defioed and circumaoribed, and that the reaiduum of power liea in tho Central Government, You have, in addition to that, the local governora named by the central authority — an admirable proviaion which establishes the connection of authority between the central power and the different localities; you have vested in it also the great«queation8 of the customs, the currency, banking, trade and navigation, commeroe, the appointment of tbe judges and the administration of the laws, and all thoae great and large questions which interest the entire community, and with which the General Government ought to be entrusted. There can, therefore, be no difficulty under the acheme between the varioua aectiona — no claahing of authority between the local and central govemmenta in thia case, aa there haa been in the caae of the Americana, The powers of the local governments are distinctly and strictly de fined, and you can have no assertion of sovereignty on the part of the local govern ments, as in the United Statea, and of powers inconsistent with the righta and aecurity of the whole community. (Hear, hear.) Then, the other point which commenda itaelf ao atrongly to my mind ia tbis, that there is a veto power on the part of the General Govern ment over all the legislation of the Local Parliament. That waa a fundamental element which the wiaeat statesmen engaged in the framing of the American Constitution saw, that if it w.aa not engrafted in it, muat neceasarily lead to the destruction of the Conatitution. Theae men engaged in the framing of that Constitution at Philadelphia saw clearly, that unleaa the power of veto over the acta of the atate legialaturea was given to the Central Government, sooner or later a claahing of authority between the central authority and the varioua atatea muat take place. What aaid Mr. Madison in reference to thia point ? I quote from Ths Secret Debates upon the Federal Constiiution, whioh took place in 1787, and during whicii this important question was considered. On the motion of Mr. PiNKNET " that the National Legiala ture shall have the power of negativing all laws to be passed by the state legislature, whioh they may judge improper," he stated that he conaidered " this as the corner stone of the system, and hence the necessity of retrenching the state authorities iu order to preserve the good government ofthe National CouncU." And Mr. Madison said, " The power of negativing is absolutely necessary — this is the only attractive principle which will retain its centrifugal force, and without this the planets will fly from their orbits." Now, sir, I believe this power of negative, this power of veto, this controlling power on the part of the Central Government is the best protection and safeguard ofthe system; and if it had not been provided, I would have felt it very difficult to reconcile it to my sense of duty to vote for the resolutions. But this power having been given to the Central Government, it is to my mind, in conjunction with the power of naming the local governors, the appointment and pay ment of the j udiciary, one of the best features 405 of the scheme, without which it would cer tainly, in my opinion, bave been open to very serious objection. (Hear, hear.) I will not now criticize any other of the lead ing features of the resolutions as they touch the fundamental conditions and principles of the union. I think there has been through out a most wise and statesmanlike diatribu tion of powers, and at the same time that those things have been carefully guarded which the minorities in the various sections required for their protection, and the regu lation of whieh each province was not unnaturally desirous of retaining for itself. So far then as the objection is concerned of this union being federative merely in its character, and liable to aU the diffi culties which usually surround federal governments, I think we may fairly consider that there haa been a proper and satisfactory distribution of power, which will avert many of those difficultiea. (Hear, hear.) But, sir there ia another objection made to it, and one upon which, from my staod-pomt, I desire to make aome obaervationa, and that is with reference to the manner iu which the righta ofthe varioua minorities in the pro vinces have been protected. This ia unques tionably a grave and aerious subject of con sideration, and especially so to the minority in this section of the province, thatis theEng- lisb-apeaking minority to whioh I and many other membera of this House belong, and with whose interests we are identified. I do not disguise that I have heard very grave and serious apprehensions by many men for whoae opinions I have great respect, and whom I admire _ for the absence of bigotry and narrow-mindedness which they have alwaya exhibited. Ihey have expreaaed themselves not so much in the way of objection to specific features of the scbeme as in the way of apprehension of something dangerous to them in it— apprehensions which they cannot state ex plicitly or even define to themselves. Ihey seem doubtful and distrustful as to the con sequences, express fears as to how it will affect their future condition and interests, and in fact they almost think that in view of this uncertainty it would be better it we remained as we are. Now, sir, _I_ believe that the rights of both minorities-the French minority in the General Legislature and the English speaking minority in the Local Legislature of Lower Canada— are properly guarded. I would admit at once that without this protection it would be open to the gravest objection ; I would admit that you were embodying in it an element of future difficulty, a cause of future dissension and agitation that might be destructive to the whole fabric ; and therefore it is a very grave and anxious question for us to consider — especially the minorities in Lower Canada — how far our mutual rights and interests aro respected and guarded, the one in the General and the other in the Local Legisla ture. With reference to this subject, I think that I, and those with whom I have acted — the English speaking members from Lower Canada — may in some degree congra tulate ourselves at having brought about a state of feeling between the two races in this section of the province which has pro duced some good effect. (Hear, hear.) There has been, ever since the time of the union, I am happy to say — and everybody knows it who has any experience in Lower Canada — a cordial understanding and friendly feeUng between the two nationalities, which has produced the happiest results. Belonging to different races and professing a different faith, we live near each other ; we come iu contact and mix with each other, and we respect each other ; we do not trench upon the rights of each other ; we have not had those party and religious _ differ ences which two races, speaking different languages and holding different religious be liefs, might be supposed to have had ; and it is a matter of sincere gratification to us, I say, that this state of things has existed and is now found amongst us. (Hear, hear.) But if, instead of this mutual confidence; if, instead of the English-speaking minority placing trust in the French majority in the Local Legislature, and the French minority placing the same trust in the English majo rity in the General Legislature, no such feeling existed, how could this scheme of Confedera tion be made to work successfully ? (Hear, hear.) I think it cannot be deniedthat there is the utmost confidence on both sides ; I feel assured that our confidence in the majority in the Local Government -will not be misplaced, and I earnestly trust that the confidence they repose in us in the General Legislature will not be abused. (Hear, hear.) I hope that thismutual yieldingof confidence will make us both act in a high-minded and sensitive manner when the rights of either side are called in question— if ever they should be called in question— in the respect- 406 ive legislatures. This is an era in the history of both races — the earnest plighting of each other's faith as they embrace this scheme. It ia remarkable that both should place such entire confidence in one another ; and in future ages our posterity on both sides will be able to point with pride to the period when the two races had such reliance the one on the other as that each was willing to trust its safety and interest to the honor of the other. (Hear, hear.) Thismutual confid ence has not been brought about by any ephemeral or spasmodic desire for change on the part of either ; it is the result of the knowledge each race possesses of the charac ter ofthe other, and of the respect each en tertains for the other. (Hear, hear.) It is because we have learnt to respect each other's motives and have been made to feel by expe rience that neither must be aggressive, and that the interests of the one are safe in the keeping of the other. And I think I may fairly appeal to the President of the Council, that if, during the ten years in which he has agitated the question of representation by population, we the English in Lower Canada had listened to his appeals — appeals that he has persistently made with all the earnestness and vigor of his nature — if we had not turn ed a deaf ear to them, but had gone with those ofour own race and our own faith, the people of Upper Canada, who demanded this change, where, I would ask him, would have been our union to day ? Would not a feeling of distrust have been established between the French and English races in the community, tbat would have rendered even the fair con sideration of it utterly impracticable ? (Hear, hear.) Would the French have in that case been ready now to truat themaelvea in the General Legialature, or the English in the Local Legialature of Lower Canada? No; and I pray God that thia mutual confidence between two racea whieh have so high and noble a work to do on this continent, who are menaced by a common danger, and actuated by a common interest, may continue for all timo to come ! I pray that it may not be interrupted or deatroyed by any act of either party ; and I truat that each may continue to feel assured that if at any time here after circumstances should arise calculated to infringe upon the rights of either, it will be aufficient to say, in order to prevent any aggression of this kind — " We trusted each other when we entered this union ; we felt then tbat our rights would be sacred with you; and our honor and good faith and in tegrity are involved in and pledged to the maintenance of them." (Hear, hear.) I be lieve this is an era in our history to which in after ages our children may appeal with pride, and that if there should be any intention on either side to aggress upoa the other, the recollection that each trusted to the honor of the other will prevent that intention being carried out. (Hear, hear.) Feeling as I do thus strongly that our French feUow-subjects are placing entire confidence in us — in our honor and our good faith — we, the English speaking population of Lower Canada, ought not to be behind hand in placing confidence in them. I feel that we have no reason as a minority to fear aggressions on the part of the majority. We feel that in the past we have an earnest of what we may reasonably expect the future relations between the two races to be. But although this feeling of mutual confidence may be strong enough in our breasts at this time, I am glad to see that my hon. friend the Attorney General East, as representing the French majority in Lower Canada, and the Minister of Finance, as re presenting the English speaking minority, have each carefully and prudently endeavored to place as fundamental conditions iu this basis of union such safeguards and protection as the two races may respectively rely upon. (Hear, hear.) I feel that it has been carefully considered and carried out, and with the same amount of mutual con fidence in the future working as in the past, we need not have any apprehension in trust ing the interests of the two races either in the Federal or Local Legislature. (Hear, hear.) But although we here, and as members of this House, feel this confidence in each other, no doubt those who prepared these resolutions were conscious that the powers must be so distributed, and the reservations of power so made, as to commend them to the people of the country at large. You must carry the people with you in this movement, for you oannot force a new Constitution, a new state of political being, upon a people, unless their own judg ment and their own convictions as to its safety go along with it. Hon. Mr. HOLTON— Hear, hear. Hon. Mr. ROSE — You cannot, I say, force a new Constitution upon an unwilling people, but in this instance I believe a very great majority approve of, and are earnestly desirous of the change. I know you must 407 satisfy them that their interests for all time to come are safe — that the interests of the minority are hedged round with such safe guards, that those who come after us will feel that they are protected in all they hold dear; and I think a few observations will enable me to show the House that that has been well and substantially done in this case. (Hear, hear.) Looking at the scheme, then, from the stand-point of an English Protestant in Lower Canada, let me see whether the interests of those of my own race and religion in that section are safely and properly guard ed. There are certain points upon which they feel the greatest interest, and with regard to which it is but proper that they should be assured that there are sufficient safeguards provided for their preservation. Upon these points, I desire to put some questions to the Government. The first of these points is as to whether such provision has been made and will be car ried out that they will not suffer at any future time from a system of exclusion from the federal or local legislatures, but that they will have a fair share in the re presentation in both; and the second is, whether such safeguards will be provided for the educational system of the minority in Lower Canada as will be satisfactory to them ? Upon these points some apprehensions appear to exist in the minds of the English minority in Lower Canada, and although I am free to confess that I have not shared in any fear of injuatice at the hands of the majority, aa I conaider that the action ofthe past forms a good guarantee for the future, yet I desire, for the full assurance of that minority, to put some questions to my hon. friends in tho Government. I wish to know what share of representation the English- speaking population of Lower Canada will have in the Federal Legislature, and whether it will be in the same proportion as their representation in this Parliament ? 'This is one point in which I think the English in habitants of Lower Canada are strongly in terested. Another is with regard to tboir representation in the Local Legislature of Lower Canada — whether the same proportion will be given to them as is now given to them in this House, that is to say, about oue-fourth of the Lower Canadian representation, which is the proportion of the English speaking to the French speaking population of Lower Canada, the numbers being 260,000 and 1,100,000 respectively. Now, the spirit of the resolutions as I understand them — and I will thank my hon. friend the Attorney Gen eral to correct me if I am in error in regard to them — provides that the electoral districts in Lower Canada for representatives in the first Federal Legislature shall remain intact as they now are ; and, although the resolution is somewhat ambiguously expressed, I take that to be its spirit. Hon. Mr. HOLTON— Have the kindness to read it and see. Hon. Mr. ROSE— Tho 23rd resolution reads ; " The Legislature of each province shall divide such province into the proper number of constituencies, and define the boundaries of each of them." Then the 24th resolution provides that " the Local Legislature may from time to time alter the electoral districts for the purpose of repre sentation in such Local Legislature, and distribute the representatives to which the province is entitled in such Local Legislature, in any manner such legislature may see fit." In these resolutions I presurae that power is given to the Legislature of each province to divide the province iuto the proper number of constituencies for representation in the Federal Parliament, and to alter the electo ral districts for representation in tho Local Legislature. Now, to speak quite plainly, the apprehension which I desire to say again I do not personally share in, but whioh has been expressed to me by gentlemen in my own constituency, is this, that with respect to the Local Legislature, it will be competent for the French majority in Lower Canada to blot out the English-apeaking minority from any share in the representation, and so to apportion the electoral districts that no Eng- ish speaking member can be returned to the Legislature. That is an apprehension upon which I would be veiy glad to have an ex pression of opinion by my hon. friend the Attorney General East. As I read the reso lutions, if the Local Legislature exercised its powers in any such unjust manner, it would be competent for the General Government to veto its action, and thus prevent the intention of the Local Legislature being carried into effect — even although the power be one which is declared to be absolutely vested in the Local Government, and delegated to it as one of the articles of its constitution. Hon. Attt. Gen. CARTIER— There is not the least doubt that if the Local Legislature of Lower Canada should apportion the electoral districts in such a way as to do injustice to the English-speaking population, the Gene ral Government will have the right to vet 408 any law it might pass to this effect and set it at nought. Hon. Ma. HOLTON— Would you ad vise it? Hon. Attt. Gen. CARTIER— Yes, I would recommend it myself in case of injus tice. (Hear, hear.) Hon. Mr. ROSE— I am quite sure my hon. friend would do it rather than have an injustice perpetrated. There is another point upon which I would like to have from the Attorney General East an explicit state ment of the views of the Government. I refer to the provision in the 2.Srd resolution whioh I have just read ; what I wish to know is whether the Legislature therein spoken of means the Legislature of the province of Canada as it is now constituted, and whether it is contemplated to have any change in the boundaries of the electoral districts for re presentation in the first session of the Fede ral Legislature? Hon. Attt. Gen. CARTIER — With regard to Lower Canada, it is not the inten tiou to make any alteration in the electoral districts, because there will be no change in the number of representatives sent to the General Parliament. But with regard to Upper Canada, there will be a change in the electoral districts, because there will be an increase of members from that section. Hon. Mr. ROSE— So that I clearly un derstand from the statement ofthe hon. gen tleman that in Lower Canada the constitu encies, for the purposes of the first e'ection to the Federal Legislature, will remain as they are now ? ¦'i Hon. Attt. Gen. CARTIER— Yes, as they are now. Hon. Mr. ROSE— And that as regards the representation in the Local Legislature, the apportionment of the electoral districts by it will be subject to veto by the General Government. Hon. Attt. Gen. CARTIER— Yes, in case of injustice being done. (Hear, hear.) Hon. Mr. ROSE — I have to thank the hon. gentleman for the manner in which he has answered the questions, and for the assu rances he has given ou these two points — assurances which, I feel persuaded, wiU re move some apprehension felt in the country with regard to them. An hon. gentleman who sits near me (Mr. Francis Jones) asks me to enquire who is to change the electoral diatricta in Upper Canada. Hon. Mr. GALT— The Parliament of Canada. (Hear, hear ) Hon. Mr. ROSE — The hon. gentleman wants to know if it ia the preaent Parlia ment of Canada ; but I am quite willing to let Upper Canada take care of itself, and I think ita representatives are able to do so. One minority is quite enough fbr me to attend to at present. (Laughter.) I trust the Attomey General East, from my putting these questions to him, will not infer that I have any doubt as to the fair dealing that will bo accorded to the minority by the majority in Lower Canada. But it is very desirable, I think, that we should re ceive a clear, emphatic, and distinct decla ration of the spirit of the resolutions on these points, io order that the minority may see how well their rights and interests have been protected. (Hear, hear.) I am fully persuaded that in the past conduct of the majority ia Lower Canada there ia nothing which wUl cauae the minority to look with doubt upon the future ; for I will do my hon. friend the justice of saying that in the whole course of his public life there has not been a single act on his part either of execu tive, administrative, or legislative action, tinged with illiberality, intolerance, or bigotry. (Hear, hear.) I say this to ex preaa my Delief that in the future, wherever he haa control, there will be no appearance of bigotry or illiberality, and I feel that the confidence I repoae in him in this respect is shared in by many others in thia House and throughout the country. (Hear, hear.) Hon. Mr. HOLTON— WiU my hon. friend allow me to interrupt him ? Perhaps it would be well, while he is asking queations of the Government, to elicit an answer to the queation I have put once or twice touching the propoaed meaaure of the Administration on the subject of education in Lower Canada, as it affects the English-speaking minority. Perhaps he will ascertain whether it will be submitted to the House before the final passage of the Confederation scheme. Hon. Mr. ROSE— I intend to come to that presently, and to put a question to my hon. friend the Attorney General East in reference to that subject. What I wish to do now is to point out the objections I have heard on the part even of some of my own friends to this scheme — objections which, as I have said, are grounded on an undefined dread of evil rather than on anything that they actually now see obnoxious in the scheme itself. These fears, I have said, are vague and undefined, and difficult therefore to combat. Ifl go among one class and ask 409 them what they fear, I am told — " Oh, you are going to hand us over to the tender mercies of the French; the EngUsh in fluence will be entirely annihilated ; they will have no power in the commu nity; and all the advantages we have gained during the past twenty-five years by our union with the people of our own race in Upper Canada will be entirely lost." I can but answer — "What are you afraid of? Where is the interest affecting you that is imperilled ? You have, in conjunction with a majority of your own race, power in the General Legislature to appoint the local gov ernors, administer justice and name the judges, to control the militia and all other means of defence, and to make laws respect ing the post office, trade, commerce, naviga tion ; and you have all the great and important interests that centre in the community I represent — all matters that affect the minority in Lower Canada — within your control in the Federal Legislature, The French have sur rendered the questions relating to usury, to marriage and divorce, on which they hold pretty strong opinions, to the Central Govern ment. What, then, are you afraid of in the action of the Local Legislature ?" " Well," I am answered, " all that may be true enough ; but we shall not get a single appointment ; the administration of local affairs in Lower Canada will be entirely in the hands of the French majority, and they will control all the patronage." You say to them again — " Is it the exercise of patronage you are afraid of ? Is not the appointment of the judges, the patronage of the post office, the customs, the excise, the board of works, and all the other important branches of the administration in the hands of the Federal Government ? What is there, then, but a few municipal officers to be appointed by the local legisla tures; and for the sake of this petty patron age, are you going to imperil the success of a scheme that is fraught with such important consequences to aU the Provinces of British North America? Is it for this that you will oppose a measure that contains so many merits, that possesses so much good, and that is calculated to confer such lasting benefits upon these provinces, if not to lead to the formation of a territorial division of the British Empire here ?" Well, these ques tions I havo put, and these explanations I have made, but some still seemed to enter tain an undefined dread that they could not reahse to themselves — a dread which to a great extent appears to be shared by my hon. 53 friend opposite (Hon. Mr. Dorion) in re gard to the General Legislature. Well, if we look to the hiatory of the past twenty- five years and see how we have acted towards each other, I think neither party will have any cause for apprehension. Haa there been a single act of aggression on the part of my hon. friend the Attorney General Easton ua the Engliah minority, or a aingle act of aggreasion on our part towards the race to which he belongs? (Hear, hear.) Has there not been mutual respect and confidence, and has there been an act on either side to destroy that feeling ? (Hear, hear.) I think the past gives assurance to us that no such difficulty will arise in the future, and that we shall continue to live and work har moniously together, each holding the other in respect and esteem. (Hear, hear.) But we are told — and it is urged as an objection against tbe acheme — that works of improve ment will be obstructed by the Local Govern ment in Lower Canada. Now, I think the day has long gone by when acts which ware formerly committed could possibly be repeat ed — when, for instance, before the union, the work carried on by the Montreal Harbor Commissioners could not be proceeded with because Mr. Papineau opposed it. The days of progress and advancement have come since that time. Tbis is an age of progress, the very spirit of wbich is hostile in the atrong eat degree to auch a state of thinga. It is impoaaible for either race to treat the other with injuatice. Their intereata are too much bound up together, and any injuatice com mitted by one would react quite aa injuri- oualy upon it elaewhere; and I believe that the rautual confidence with which we are going into thia union ought to and will in duce ua all to labor together harmonioualy, and endeavor to work it out for the best. (Hear, hear.) I do not disguise from my self that the minority in Lower Canada haa always been on the defensive. That is a condition which is natural under tho circum stances ; fbr we cannot be in a minority without being more or less on the defensive. But I think that under this scheme the French minority in the General Legialatuie and the EngUah minority in Lower Canada, will both be amply and satiafactorily protect ed. (Hear, hear.) Now, air, I come to the queation adverted to by the hon. member for Chateauguay, in reference to the education meaaure which the Government has promised to bring down to the Houae. I believe this is the first time aimost in tha history of 410 Lower Canada — and L call the attention of my hon. friends from Upper Canada to the fact — that there has been any excitement, or movement, or agitation on the part of the English Protestant population of Lower Ca nada in reference to the common school question. (Hear, hear.) It is the first time in the history of the country tbat there has been any serious apprehension aroused amongst them regarding the elementary edu cation of their children. I am not aware that there has ever been any attempt in Lower Canada to deprive the minority of their just rights in respect to the education of their youth. I do not state this simply as my own opinion, or as the result of obser vations which I have made alone. I have received letters from those who have been cognizant of the educational system in Lower Canada for many years, confirmatory of this in the strongest degree. It was alao obaerv ed and commented upon by the three com missioners who came out from England to this country in 1837, and Who in their re port said it was one of the most remarkable circumstances that came under their notice, that they found two races, apeaking different languages and holding different reUgioua opinions, living together in harmony, and having no difference or ill-feeling in respect to the education of their children." Now we, the English Protestant rainority of Lowe Canada, cannot forget that whatever right of separate education we have was accorded to us in the moat unrestricted way before the union of the provinces, when we were in a minority and entirely in the handa of the French population. We cannot forget that in no way waa there any attempt to prevent us educating our children in the manner we saw fit and deemed best ; and I would be untrue to what is just if I forgot to state that the distribution of State funda for educational purpoaes was made in auch a way aa to cauae no complaint on the part of the minority. I believe we have always had our fair share of the public granta in so far as the French eleraent could control them, and not only the liberty, but every facility, fbr the establishment of separate dissentient schools wherever they were deemed desirable. A single person has the right, under the law, of establishing a dissentient school and obtaining a fair share of the educational grant, if he can gather together fifteen child ren who desire instruction in it. Now, we cannot forget that in the past this liberality has been shown to us, and that whatever we desired of the French majority in respect to education, they were, if it was at all reason able, willing to concede. (Hear, hear.) We have thus, in this also, the guarantee of the past that nothing will be done in the future unduly to interfere with ourrights and inter ests as regards education, and I believe that everything we desire will be as freely given by the Local Legislature as it was before the union of the Canadas. (Hear, hear.) But from whence comes the practical difficulty of dealing with the question at the present mo ment ? We should not forget that it does not come from our French-Canadian brethren in Lower Canada, but tbat it arises in this way — and I speak as one who has watched the course of events and the opinion of the country upon the subject — that the Protestant majority in Upper Canada are indisposed to disturb the settlement made a couple of years ago, with regard to separate schools, and rather to hope that the French majority in Lower Canada should concede to the English Protestant minority there, nothing more than is given to the minority in the other section of the province. But still it must be conceded that there are certain pointe where the present educational system demands modification — points in which the English Protestant minority of Lower Canada expect a modification. I would ask my honorable friend tbe Attorney General East, whether the system of educa tion which is in force in Lower Canada at the time of the proclamation is to remain and be tbe system of education for all time to come ; and that whatever rights are given to either of the religious sections shall con tinue to be guaranteed to them ? We are called upon to vote for the resolutions in ignorance, to some extent, of the guaranties to be given by subsequent legislation, and therefore my honorable friend wiU not take it amiss if I point out to him where the Protestant minority desire a change, with a view of ascertaining how far the Government is disposed to meet their views by coming down with a measure in which they may be embodied. The first thing I wish to men tion has caused a good deal of difficulty in our present system, and that is, whether non-resident proprietors shall have the same right of designating the class of schools to wnich their taxes shaU be given as actual residents. That is one point — whether a person Uving out of the district or township 411 shall not have the same privilege of saying that his taxes shall be given to a dissentient school as if he resided upon the property. A second point is with reference to taxes on the property of incorporated companies. As it is now, such taxes go in a manner which is not considered satisfactory to the minority of Lower Canada. What I desire to ascertain is whether some equitable provision will be made, enabling the taxes on such property to be distributed in some way more satisfac tory to the owners — perhaps in the same way that the Government money is. Some have urged that it should be left to the directors of such companies to indicate the schools to which such taxes should be given, while others think that each individual shareholder should have the power to say how the taxes on his property should be applied. I am inclined to think the latter method would be found utterly impracticable. I confess it is an extreme view, and I do not think we could expect that. But I do think there ought to be some more equitable way of appropriating the taxes on such property. These are two pointe, of perhaps inferior importance to the third, and that is, whether a more direct control over the administration and management of the dissentient schools in Lower Canada will not be given to the Protestant minority ; whether in fact they will not be left in some measure to them selves. I am quite well aware that this is a question that concerns both Catholics and Protestants, for I believe that about one- third of the dissentient schools are Catholic schools. Hon. Mu. HOLTON— Dissentient on account of language. Hon. Mr. CARTIER— There are none dissentient on account of language. Hon. Mr. HOLTON— Well, what for then? Hon. Mr. CARTIER— WeU, not on ac count of language ; there is no difficulty on account ofthat. Hon. Mr. ROSE— The question relates to all dissentient schools, from whatever cause they may have been led to dissent. The remedy can be made to apply equally to all. I do not ask what precise measure will be brought down, but I do think they ought to have more control than they now possess. The final question is one relating somewhat to the finances, and therefore belongs more properly to my hon. friend the Minister of finance. Hon. Mr. GALT— You shall have an answer immediately. Hon. Mr. CA.RTIER— Mr. Speaker, as usual, I am ready to answer categorical questions, and I will answer my hon. friend in auch a way as to satisfy both the House and my hon. friend. With regard to the firat point, respecting non-residents in the townships, I may say that it is the intention of the Government, in a measure which is to be introduced, to give those who are in a minority power to designate to what dissenti ent schools their assessment shall be paid. Hon. J. S. MACDONALD— Only in townahipa ? Hon. Mr. CARTIER- Everywhere. Not to Catholica alone either. With regard to the second question — the diatribution of money raised from commercial companies — I am well aware that to thia day there has been a complaint with regard to the diatribution of those moneys. It is the intention of the Government to have in the meusure a pro viaion which will aecure a more equitable distribution of those moneys, distributing them in such a way aa to aatiafy everyone. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) Now, with re gard to the third enquiry, I am ready also to anawer my honorable friend from Montreal Centre, that it ia the intention of the Government that in that law there will be a proviaion that will secure to the Protestant minority in Lower Canada such manage ment and control over their schools as will satisfy them. (Laughter and cheers.) Now, with regard to my hon. frind from Chateau guay, who said that there were dissentient schools on account of language. Hon. Mr. HOLTON— The hon. gentle man must have misunderstood what I said. The honorable member from Montreal Centre was saying that there were dissentient schools on account of religion. I' merely suggested that there might be disaentient schools on account of language. There waa nothing in the law to prevent it. There might be Catholic diasentient schools in municipalities where the majority waa Protestant. Hon. Mr. CARTIER— The honorable member for Chateauguay has the lawa of Lower Canada in his poasession. Well, he will not find there that there is any such thing aa Catholic or Proteatant schools mentioned. What are termed in Upper Canada aeparate achooh, come under the appropriate word, in Lower Canada, of dis sentient. It is stated that where the majority 412 is of either religion, the dissentient minority — either Catholic or Protestant — have the right to establish dissentient schools. In the cities the majority being Catholics, the dissentient schools are Protestant, but in the townahipa, the majority is sometimes Protea tant and the diaaentient achoola Catholic. Mr. POPE— What will be the provision made, where the population is pretty sparse, as in some parts of my county ? Will you allow the minority of one township to join with a neighboring township for the purpose of establishing a dissentient school ? Hon. Mr. CARTIER— Yes. There will be a provision enabling the minority to join with their friends in a contiguous munici pality in order to make up the requisite number. Hon. j. S. MACDONALD— WhUe the Government ia in a communicative mood — (laughter) — I think it ia of some importance that we should know whether it is the in tention of tbe Government to extend the same rights and privileges to the Catholic minority of Upper Canada that are to be given to the Protestants of Lower Canada ? Hon. Mr. CAkTIER— I cannot do my own work and the work of others. The Hon. Attorney General for Upper Canada ia not preaent, but I have no doubt that on some future occasion he will be able j,to anawer my honorable friend from Cornwall. Hon. j. 8. MACDONALD— In the ab sence of the Hon. Attorney General West, perhaps the Hon. President of the Council will be kind enough to give us the desired information ? Hon. Mr. BROWN— If my hon. friend wants an anawer from me, I can only aay that the proviaiona of the School bill relat ing to Upper Canada have not yet been conaidered by thcGovernment. As soon as a bill is framed there will be no delay in laying it before the Houae. Hon. Mr. ALLEYN— I aincerely hope that the Government feel diapoaed to grant to tbe Catholics of Upper Canada tha aame privilegea they Lave just promiaed to the Proteatanta of Lower Canada. Hon. Ma. ROSE — The manner and apirit in which the Government have given ex- planationa on the subject o-jght to be satisfac tory to the people of Lower Canada of the Protestant religion. The liberal manner in which they have been dealt with in the past gives us every reason to be convinced that we will receive justice. (Hear, bear.) I have no hesitation in saying that I have full confidence that the Lower Canada section of the Adminiatration will deal with us in a fair and liberal spirit. I have confidence in my hon. friend the Minister of Finance, and in my hon. friend the Attorney General East, and I am glad to learn that he will give all proper conaideration to that financial ques tion, the distribution of the assessment of commercial companies in a satisfactory man ner. I hope the Miniater of Finance will be disposed to go further, and deal in a similar spirit with the endowment of col leges. Hon. Mr. HOLTON — Bring the pressure to bear, and you will get it. Now is the time, before the Confederation scheme comes to a vote. Hon. Mr. ROSE — WeU, it happens that my honorable friend from Chateauguay and myself hold very diaaimilar viewa respect ing the importance of Confederation. If I were disposed to follow such tactics, I might possibly profit by his advice. But I am inclined to overlook a great many things on which my honorable friend would hesitate, for the purpose of seeing so important a measure carried out. While I have every confidence in the present Govern ment, I feel that we may expect as much justice at the hands of the Lower Canada Local Parliament as from any Government of United Canada that we ever had. We have never yet had occaaion to appeal to the Protestant maj ority of Upper Canada for help, and if we ever ahould deem it proper to do ao, I have no reaaon to believe that we ahould receive more attention than our wants re ceived at the hands of the Catholic majo rity of Lower Canada. (Hear, hear.) Now, air, so far as the three questions to which I have made allusion are concerned, the appre hensions of being shut out from the General Government — being handed over to the French in the Local Parliament of Lower Canada, and our educational rights being interfered with, I feel every assurance that the spirit of the answers juat given will be carried out. I will now aay a few words respecting the arguraent preaented by my hon. friend from Hochelaga (Hon. Mr. Do rion) in the courae of hia speech the other evening — that the plan for Federation would inflict great financial injustice upon Canada, and that it would, through the Intercolonial Railway and works of defence, entail such enorinous burdens upon the people of Canada 413 as to ultimately lead them to rise up against and overthrow it. Well now, for the life of me I cannot see how it is to increase our expenditure. I cannot see how it can go beyond what the Minister of Finance stated — that it could not in any case add to tho present cost more than the expenses of the General Government. The Local Govern mente cannot be more expensive than tbe present Government, and therefore all we need to add at the very most ia the expenae of the General Government. I do not aee how it is poaaible to add any more. I would, however, ask the attention of the House to another statement made the other evening by the hon. member from Hochelaga. He said that we were making a mistake in aup poaing that we were diacuaaing a question of colonial union. Confederation, he said, was simply tacked on to the Intercolonial Rail way at the suggestion of Mr. Watkin, and that the whole arrangement was merely a nicely planned scheme for the benefit of the Grand Trunk Railway. Mr. wallbridge— That was the very motive. Hon. Mr. ROSE — Well, does any one suppose that my hon. friend the President of the Council could be duped in that way ? Is it possible that my hon. friend from Ho chelaga believes he has so little astuteness as not to see through such an attempt as that ? The argument was used to get the support of the opponents of railways in this House against the Federation. Sir, it would appear that the hon. President of the Council, and the hon. Provincial Secretary and the other members of the Government, who are anti- railway in their views, have been altogether mistaken, and that we are merely going to build up another gigantic railway monopoly for fraudulent purposea. They may all be deceived by this imaginary project, and it would seem too, sir, that -Mr. Watkin, poa sessing the wiles of MEPHibTOPHELES, had hoodwinked the Governor General, and the Colonial Secretry, and cauaed them to fall into the trap alao". Nay, further, it would appear that his wiles had reached the Throne itself, for Her Majesty has expressed herself in the speech to ParUament in favor of the scheme. (Hear, hear.) Hon. Mr. HOLTON— Order, order. Hon. Mr. ROSE— Can it be supposed that a grave and important matter of thia kind would have received such consideration from the Home Government, if it were nothing more than a Grand Trunk job? My hon. friend opposite sonorously cries "Order," when I come to deal with his late colleague's arguments as the only anawer he can give. Does he suppose I am going to allow a grave charge of such a nature to go unanswered ? HoN.Mtt.HOLTON- IfIcalled"Order," it was becau-:e I considered that Her Majesty ought not to have been mentioned in con nection with the term " hoodwink." Her advisers were the responsible parties. (Hear, hear.) Hon. Mr. ROSE — I repeat that the Speech from the 'i'hrone which we have received to day, and to which I have a perfect right to refer, does not treat thia meaaure as anything akin to a Grand Trunk j ob. Itia really preaum ¦ ing too much on the part of my hon . friend from Hochelaga to get up and aay in effect to the members of this House : "You know nothing about this scheme ; you cannot aee or under atand what it really is ; but my astuteness enables me to see that it ia nothing more than a mere railway job." (^Laughter.) Does the hon. member really believe what he haa stated ? Does he really believe that the whole project is for the benefit of the Grand Trunk ? It is a most unworthy courae for him to puraue to endeavor to bring old prejudicea against the Grand Trunk Company, to bear in the manner he has been doing; prejudices and animosities based upon atoriea that have been repeated until a further reference to them aeems almoat childiah. But it ia not posaible that any honorable member'a judg ment can be carried away by thoae little appeala to aide issues, on a question of this important nature. What does the Speech from the Throne say :— Her Majesty has had great satisfaction in giving her sanction to the meeting of a conference of delegatea from her several North American Pro vincea, who, on an invitation from Her Majesty's Governor General, assembled at Q-jebec. These delegates adopted resolutions having for their object a closer union of those provinces under a Central Government. If those reaolutiona ahall be approved by the Provincial Legislatures, a bill will be laid before yon for carrying thia important measure into effect. (Loud cheers.) This is the language used by our Sovereign when addressing the Imperial Parliament, and are we now to be urged to under estimate the value of the great project by mere appeala to the prpjudicea of the people at large against the threatened monopoly of the Grand Trunk Railway. The opinion of Her Majesty is shared in, too, by some of tha 414 greatest statesmen of England, whose names are identified with tbe history of the nation. What said Lord Derbt in reference to Confederation ? Does he consider it to emanate from a mere clique of railway speculators ? Speaking of the relation of Canada to the United States — and his remarks come in most opportunely in connection with the observations I made at the outset — speaking of defending the upper lakes with armed vessels, the noble lord says : — I do not ask Her Majesty's Government what atepa they have taken, but J do say thia, that they will be deeply responsible if they are not fully awake to the position in which this country is placed hy these two acts ofthe United States. If the preponderating force upon the lakes should be in the hands of the United States, it could only be used for purposes of asrgression. (Hear, hear.) An attack on the part of Canada upon the United Statea ia a physical impossibility. The long fron tier of Canada is peculiarly open to aggression ; and assail.nble as it is by land, unless there be a preponderating force upon these lakes, you must he prepared to place the province, of Canada at the disposal of the United States. I prefer the appreciation of Lord Derbt, and hia opinion of the state of these af fairs, to the ironical cheers or opinion of my honorable fiiend from Chateauguay. I place what the noble lord has said as to the Confederation queation in ita relation to the defence of theae provinces and the strength to be thereby added to the Govern ment of England, before anything which he or the other opponents of thia acheme can expresa. The noble lord aaya with regard to the great meaaure iteelf: — Under the circumatancea I see, with additional satisfaction, the announcement 'if a contemplated atep— I mean the proposed Federation of the British North American Provinces. I hope I may regard that Federation as a measure tending to constitute a power strong enough, with the aid of this country, which, I trust, may never be with drawn from these provinces — to acquire an irapor tance which separately they could not obtain. If I saw in this Federation a desire to separate from this country, I should think it a matter of much more doubtful policy and advantage ; but I per ceive with aatisfaction that no such wish is enter tained. Perhaps it ia premature to discuss at this moment resolutions not yet submitted to the dif ferent legislatures ; but I hope I see in the terms of that Federation an earneat desire on the part of the provinces to maintain for themselves the blessing of the connection with thia country, and a determined and deliberate preference for mon archical over republican inatitutiona. (Hear, hear, and cheers.) Now, sir, could there be anything more opportune ? This is the lan guage of one of the ablest statesmen of Eng land. Be united, he says, that you may he strong, and depend upon it you will have the whole power of England to sustain you. Can there be anything more cheering or encourag ing to those who have taken an interest in the subject, than the language I have just quoted, and which was uttered in the House of Lords not three weeks ago ? (Hear, hear.) And yet my honorable friend from Hochelaga presumes to stand up here and tell us, in effect, that we are so many children — that we are deceived with the idea that we are going to establish a great nation or Confederation of provinces, and that there is nothing of that kind in it; and he appeals to prejudices for merly entertained by members on this side of the House, in order that he may induce them to withdraw their support from the important measure which the Government haa brought down, and which the greatest statesmen of England have stamped with their approval. (Hear, hear.) Perhaps the House wUl indulge me if I read a few more words from the dis cusaion in the House of Lords upon the Speech from the Throne. Earl Granville, the President of the CouncU, said : — And what ought to make ua atill more proud of the good government which must undoubtedly have prevailed amongst us, is to find that our North Anerican colonies, in expreaaing their wish to continue their connexion with this coun try, and in adopting the new institutiona they have been considering with such calm and prudent statesmanship, have thought it desirable to beep aa close aa possible to the constitution and inati tutions under which we so happily live. (Loud cheers.) He does not belittle the men who have sacrificed so much, as honorable gentlemen opposite are inclined to do. He does not sneer at those who have gone into the matter with the honest view of carry ing it out ; but, on the contrary, he praises their " calm and prudent stateamanahip," and says that it is a matter of which they may feel proud, and I say that those who have taken part in originating and bring ing this project to the present advanced stage, may well feel proud of their work, when the greatest statesmen of the world com mend it as a thing of wonderful perfection, conaidering the difficulties with which it is surrounded. And theae opinions were not confined to any one party, but were uttered by both liberals and conservatives. Lord Houghton said in the course of the same debate : — On the other side of the Atlantic the aame im pulse has manifested itself ia the proposed^ amal- 415 gamation ofthe Northern Provincea of Britiah America. I heartily concur with all that haa been aaid by my noble friend the mover of this addresa in his laudation of that project. It is, my lords, a most interesting contemplation that that project has arisen and has been approved by Her Majeaty'a Government. It ia certainly con trary to what might be considered the old maxima of government iu connection with the coloniea, that we ahould here expresa, and that the Crown itaelf ahould express saiiafaction at a measure which tenda to bind together in almoat in dependent power our colonies in North America. We do atill believe that though thus banded together they will recognize the value of Britiah connection, and that while they will be safer in this amalgamation we shall he aa safe in their fealty. The measure will, uo doubt, my lorda, require much prudent consideration and great at tention to prevent suaceptibilitiea. It will have to deal with several British provinces, but with a race almost foreign in their habita and origin. I do hope it will ultimately aucceed, and that the French-Canadians forming part of this great in tegral North British American empire will have as much security and happineaa as they can attain. Those who say that the people throughout the country are opposed to thia measure, I am satisfied, know very little what the sentiment of the country is. I believe there is a deep- rooted sentiment of approbation af the steps that have been taken. I know that those who are perhaps most fearful with reference to it, and whose interests are perhaps most in jeopardy — the English speaking minority in Lower Canada — have considered it carefully. and with all their prejudices against it at the outset, are now warmly in its favor. I speak particularly of those who have great interests at stake in the community which I represent — the great and varied interests of commerce, trade, banking, manufactures and material progreaa generally, which are auppoaed to centre in the city of Montreal. Theae men — and there are none more competent in the province — have conaidered the soheme in a calm and busineaa-like way, and have deliber ately come to the concluaion that it ia calcu lated to promote the best interests and greatly enhance the prosperity of this country. (Hear, hear.) Well knowing th-it they are to be in a minority in the Local Legislature, and to be cut off, as it were, from those of their o-wn race and religion in Upper Canada, yet, after con sidering how the change is to affect the im portant interests which they have at stake, they are prepared to cast in their lot with the measure, and endeavor to make it work har moniously. (Hear, hear.) And I beUeve, Mr. Spbakek, that we have not a day to lose in carrying out the project. I believe the question of preparing for the defence of this country is an imminent one. (Hear, hear.) There is not, I repeat, a day or an hour to be lost, and I believe that if this oountry is put into a proper condition of defence, the union will be tbe best safeguard we can have. If our neighbors see that we have the means of causing them to sit down on our frontier and spend a summer before they can hope to make any impression upon the country, we wiU then be in a pretty good condition to defend our selves. I trust that the blessings of peace may long be preserved to us, that the good feeling which ought to subsist between Can ada and the United States may never be in terrupted ; that two kindred nations which have so many ties, so many interests, and so many associations in common, may never be come enemie8,and I think that we ought to make every honorable conceasion in order to avert the calamitiea of war. No man can appre ciate the bleaaings of peace more than I do, and no one is more alive to the horrors of war than I am. But at the same time we cannot conceal from ouraelves the fact that within the last three or four years we have sev eral times been seriously threatened. It is not in the power of any man to say when the cloud, which so darkly over shadows us, may burst in full fury on our heads, and those who have the direction of the destinies of this country ought to be pre pared to do all that in them lies to place it in a position to meet that event. We cannot recede from the poaition we have assumed. We cannot go back, we must go forward ; and it is certain to my mind that if what has now been undertaken is not consummated, we will regret it in years to come. I have but to add one word more, and I must apologize to the House for the time I have already occu pied. (Cries of " Go on.") I am afraid I have very much transgressed the limits I had assigned to myself. There is but one point more, and I have done. My honorable friend opposite (Hon. Mr. Dorion) sayS that this scheme is going to ruin us financially — that it is financially unfair. But he has faUed to point out in what feature this can be regarded as financially injurious to any particular sec tion. There can be nothing fairer to my mind than that, in forming a partnership be tween these five provinces, the amount of the debt should be equalised at the time the part nership is formed, and that whatever one is short should be made up by an annual grant to the other, not an increasing one but a fixed 416 sum. There can be nothing unfair in the application of such a principle as that. Of course the interest on the debt, whatever it may be, must be met by taxation. " And," says my honorable friend, " the Lower Pro vinces are less able to pay taxation than we are, and therefore the great bulk of the taxar tion will have to come out of the inhabitants of Upper and Lower Canada, and particularly themerchants ofthe city of Montreal." Well, sir, is not this just ? Is it not fair that the richest portion of the community should pay the most taxes ? Does my honorable friend mean to say that those who consume most ought not to pay most to the revenue ? And if the people of Upper and Lower Canada are larger consumers than the people of the Lower Provinces, ought they not to contribute ac cording to their consumption to the revenue ? "But, oh," saya my honorable friend, "the people of the Lower Provinces get their 80 cents per head, and we get no more, although we are much larger contributors to the revenue." And, he adds, "the amount to be derived from the contribu tions to the revenue by the Lower Pro vinces will be very infiniteaimal." But grant ed, for argument's sake, that this is so, I think we ought not to undervalue in tbis discuaaion the collateral advantage whioh the control of the fisheries will give to the united govern ment in the union to be formed. Remember that these fiaheriea will form an important part in the future negotiations with the Uni ted States in reference to reciprocity, which Upper Canada attaches ao much importance to. Hence Canada in this union will have the control of the policy in regard to the con cession of fishing rights to the American Government. And it is in this reapect that the future commercial position of the Upper Canada farmer and the Lower Canada mer chant will be enhanced by the fact that the concession of the fisheries will procure for them advantages in other branchea of trade ; for I repeat that the future policy will be di rected in a great meaaure by the influence wielded by Canada in the Confederation. — (Hear, hear.) My honorable friend, however, goes on to say, " But you are about to incur a large amount of debt. Lower Canada entered into the present union with a debt of only $300,000 or $400,000, aud the united debt of the two provinces is now 167,000,000." Well, sir, this is quite true. But Lower Canada, when she entered the union, had only a population of 600,000, and Upper Canada a population of 400,000. There was not at that time a mile of railway ; now there are upwarda of 2,000. (Hear, hear.) There was hardly a light-house, and see how the St.Law- rence and lakes are lighted now from Lake Superior to Belleisle. (Hear, hear.) She went into the union without a canal, and she has now the flnest canal system in the world. (Hear, hear.) She had no educational sys tem, and look at the state of education among us at the present time. (Hear, hear.) She was without a municipal system, and look at the municipal institutions of Lower Canada as they are to be found to-day. (Hear, hear.) She went into the union with the seigniorial tenure grinding as it were the people, and weighing down the industry and enterprise of the country ; and has not the seigniorial tenure been abolished ? (Hear, hear.) Does not my honorable friend see the advantages of all these reforms and improvemente ? And does not my honorable friend know that of the $62,000,000 which is regarded as Canada's proportion of the joint debt, $19,000,000 and more have been actuaUy expended in and are now positively represented by public works of that value ? Hon. Mr. DORION— Not in Lower Ca nada. Hon. Mil. ROSE— My honorable friend says " Not in Lower Canada." But does he not aee that the chain of canals which have been constructed to bring down the trade of the West to Montreal and Quebec, is a benefit of the most substantial kind to Lower Canada ? (Hear, hear.) What but tbese very facilities have increased the shipping of Montreal aome five hundred per cent, within the last few years. Does my honorable friend mean to say that the connection of the Grand Trunk with the western railways of the United States is not a benefit to Lower Canada ? Does he mean to assert that the slides con structed on the Ottawa so as to bring lumber to Quebec is of no advantage to Lower Cana da ? Surely he does not measure everything that is done in the way of improvement by a petty, narrow, sectional standard, which would exact that unlesa a pound of money laid out in a particular apot or locaUty benefited that particular place, it was thrown away. Is this the policy which he would like to see in troduced into the new rigime f Hon. Mr. CARTIER— We have, too, the Victoria Bridge. Hon. Mr. ROSE— Yes, we have also the Victoria Bridge. And does my honorable friend think that we would have had this 417 great work had the views he enunciates been acted upon ? Hon. j. S. MACDONALD— Leave us as we are. Hon. Mr. ROSE— We cannot be left as we are. I should be content, Mr. Speaker, were I to live for twenty-five years after the union now contemplated is consummated, I should be content to know that I had taken a humble part in bringing it about, if the pros perity of the country during the next twenty- five years under it were only as great as dur ing the twenty-five years that have past. (Hear, hear.) My honorable friend seems to think that the Intercolonial Railway is an un dertaking of doubtful advantage, if it is not one of positive uselessness. But does my hon. friend think we can safely continue in our present position of commercial dependence on the United Statea ? Shall we be denied ac ceaa to the aeaboard for a bale of goods or a bag of letters ? Are we to be for all tirae to come dependent on the fiacal legialation ofthe United Statea ? Ia it to come to this, that in the winter season the Upper Canada farmer shall have no means whereby he can send a barrel of flour, or the Lower Canada mer chant a bale of gooda, to the seaboard, with out the leave of the United States ? Is my honorable friend disposed to leave us in this cohdition of commercial dependency for ever ? I can hardly believe he will deliberately say that we are to continue in such circumstances as these — that under no conditions shall the expense of constructing the Intercolonial Rail way be incurred. I believe with him that that work is a great and grave undertaking, and one that wiU involve a serious charge on the wealth of the country. But then I con tend that it. is one whioh we cannot a void- it is a necessity. We must have it. It is called for by military reasons and commercial necessity, and the date of ite construction can not safely be postponed. Why, what have we not seen within a very recent period ? Re strictions have been put on goods sent through the Uuited States, by the establishment of consular certificates, to such an extent that you could not send a bale of goods through the States without accompanying it with one of these certificates, the cost of which I am told was nearly $2 — perhaps more than the worth of the package, or more than the cost of the freight. (Hear, hear.) StiU further, the Senate of the United States had also be fore them a motion to consider under what regulations foreign merchandise is aUowed to paas in bond through the neighbouring coun- 54 try ; and this was evidently done with an in tention of abolishing the system under which goods were permitted to pass in bond from England through the United States. I do not hesitate to say that if the bonding system were done away with, half the merchants in Canada would be seriously embarrassed if not ruined for tbe time. (Hear, hear.) In the winter season you could not send a barrel of flour to England — you could not receive a single package of goods therefrom. The merchants would have to lay in a twelve months' stock of goods, and the farmer would be dependent on the condition of the market in spring, and would be compelled to force the sale of his produce at that moment, whether there was a profltable market for it then or not, instead of having as now a mar ket at all seasons, as well in England as the United States. So that whatever sacrifices attach to the construction of the Intercolonial Railway, we must have it, seeing that it is impossible for us to remain in our present poaition of iaolation and suapenae. It ia one of the unfortunate incidenta of our position which we cannot get rid of. It will be a costly undertaking, but it is one we must make up our minds to pay for, and the sooner we set about ite construction the better. Hon. Attt. Gen. CARTIER— We must always expect to pay for what is good. Mr. WALLBRIDGE— But when it is good for nothing, what then ? Hon. Mr. ROSE— I have just done. I do not hope to convert my honorable friend ; but I desired to show how indiapenaable and how deairable thoae communicationa are, and how neceaaary it is tbat they should be effected. No one can foresee what the future of the neighboring States will be — whether they will be reconstructed aa one union, or aplit up into two or more confederacies. They have a dark and uncertain future before them, for no one can doubt that no matter what their condition as regards reconstruction may be, they will have an enormoua load of debt weighing upon them, and that they will have to encounter great difficulties before they finally settle down into the same state of per manent security as formerly. If we are alive to the natural advantages of our poaition, unleaa we deliberately throw them away, we can, whatever that future may be, aecure a profitable intercourae with them. IJnless the St. Lawrence and Ottawa cease to flow, and the lakes dry up, those roads to the ocean are tho natural outlets for the west, and we can turn them to good account. We know^eoB""- 418 thing of the great productiveness of the West em States. There is, in fact, no limit to that productiveness, and the necessity of their hav ing another outlet to the sea, without being altogether dependent upon New York and Bos ton, is to my mind very plain. This neces sity of the powerful western interests must have a controUing influence in the commer cial policy of the United States ; and if we can direct the trade of the Western States down the St. Lawrence by giving them ad ditional facilities, it cannot be doubted that we shall find therein a great element of secu rity for the future peace of the two countries. This House will remember the resolutions, of a couple of years ago, of the states of Wis consin and Illinois in reference to this ques tion. These resolutions contained one or two facts which are of the greatest importance, as showing the necessity existing in the Wes tem States for a channel of communication through the St. Lawrence. The memorial founded on it stated these facts : — With one-tenth of the arable surface under cul tivation, the product of wheat of the North-Wes tern Statea in 1862 ia estimated at 150,000,000 of buahela ; and from our own State of IlUnoia alone there has been shipped annually for the laat two yeara, a aurplua of food suflicient to feed ten millions of people. Por several years past a lamentable waste of cropa actually harvested has occurred in consequence of the inability of the railways and canals leading to the seaboard to take off the excesa. The North-Weat seems ah ready to have arrived at a point of production beyond any possible capacity for transportation which can be provided, except by the great na tural outlets. It has for two successive yeara crowded the canals and railw?.ya with more than 100,000,000 of buahela of grain, besides immenae quantities of other provisions, and vast numbers of cattle and hogs. This increaaing volume of business cannot be maintained without recourse to the natural outlet of the lakes. The future prosperity of these statea bordering on the great lakea depends in a great measure on cheap tranaportation to foreign marketa ; hence they are vitally intereated in the question of opening the u t. Lawrence, the great natural thoroughfare from the lakes to the ocean, through, and by which the people of England may enlarge their supplies of breadstuffs and provisions, greatly ex ceeding the quantity heretofore received from the Uuited States, at one-fourth less cost than it hsis heretofore been obtained. Prom actual ex perience derived from ahipmenta of Indian corn from Chicago to Liverpool, it is shown that the freight charges often covered aeven-eightha ofthe value of the bushel of corn at Liverpool ; more than one-half of the cost of wheat ia alao often conanmed by the preaent very inadequate means of transportation. The European cuatomer for our breadatuffs determinea their price in aU our marketa. The aurplua of grain derived from the North-Weat ia fifty or sixty milliona of bushels beyond the demand of the Eastern Statea, and when that aurplua ia carried to their marketa, the foreign quotations eatablish the value of the en tire harvest. The interior of North America ia drained by the St. Lawrence, which furnishes for the country bordering upon the lakes a natulral highway to the aea. Through its deep channel muat pasa the agricultural productiona of the vaat lake region. The commercial apirit of the age forbida that international jealouay should in terfere with great natural thoroughfares, and the govemmenta of Great Britain and the United Statea will appreciate this spirit and cheerfully yield to ita infiuence. The great avenue to the Atlantic through the St. Lawrence being once opened to ita largeat capability, the lawa of trade, which it haa now been the policy of the Federal Governmeut to obatruct, wiU carry tbe commerce of the North-Weat through it. I say, then, give us the Intercolonial Railway, give us the command of the St. Lawrence, give us a government by which we can direct OUT national policy, give us the control of the fisheries, and we will be able to secure such reciprocal trade with the United States for Upper Canada as it requires. But if we are disunited — if the Lower Provinces retain the control ofthe fisheries, and Canada has nothing to give in exchange for the conceaaion she aeeka from the United States in the way of commercial intercourse, in breadstuffs and otherwise — I say that in such a case as this we are very much hampered indeed. I have detained the House very much longer than I intended, and I fear that I have exhausted the patience of honorable members; (Cries of "No, no," and "goon.") I have fallen into the same error wHch has been attributed to others. But there is a single observation I desire to offer in conclusion, and it has reference to the demand made by some honor able members, that there should be a dissolu tion before the question is finaUy decided. WeU, sir, time presses. We have, and I can not repeat it too often, not a day or an hour to lose in undertaking those great works of defence which may be absolutely necessary to our existence. Hon. j. S. MACDONALD— What works of defence ? Hon. Mr. ROSE— The works to which I have alluded. Mr. WALLBRIDGE— Where are they? Hon. Mr. ROSE— Does any honorable gentleman know, or, if he does know, ought he to say publicly where they are to be ? AU we know is that there must be a large outlay 419 on the defences of the country, of Which the Lower Provinoes wiU bear their share and the Imperial Government -will bear its share ; but how do I know, or ought any honorable gentleman here to enquire if I did, whether these works wiU be at Point L^vis, at Mont real, at Kingston, at Toronto, or where? But that there are to be works, and extensive works necessary to be constructed, so as to cheek sudden conquest or invasion, does not admit of a doubt. Does not the honorable gentleman know that there have been out here time and again eminent miUtary officers, under directions from the Imperial Govern ment, to ascertain where would be the best pointe for the erection of those fortifications ? Hon. j. S. MACDONALD— And how much of the cost are we to contribute ? Hon. Mr. ROSE — I hope as much as may be necessary and fair. (Cheers.) For my part — and I know that this feeling is shared in by every honorable member who hears me — I am prepared not only to stake the money of others, but, if necessary, to expend my last shilling on these works, if they are declared to be essential for the defence of the country. (Hear, hear, and cheers.) I con sider such precautions as much a necessity as insuring one's house against fire. If the hon orable gentleman means to say that, in provid ing for the continuance of our national exist ence, the people would bargain whether they should give a hundred pounds or a thousand pounds, I can assure him he knows very little of the spirit of the country. The people are prepared to tax themselves to the extent of their last shiUing in order to defend themselves against aggression. (Hear, hear.) I do not pretend to know anything of military opera tions, but any man with a head on his should ers must see that there must be works of some kind constructed to enable us to resist aggres sion. Mr. wallbridge— I pretend to have a head on my shoulders as well as the honor able gentleman, and I would ask him whether the railway, which is made part of the Con stitution, is considered part of the works he aUudes to or not ? Hon. Mr. ROSE— I do not think the Intercolonial Railway is part of the Constitu tion, but its construction is provided for, and a raUway from such point as shaU be con sidered on the whole best, both in reference to commercial considerations and mUitary con siderations, is indispensable; and what is more, I believe the couutry wiU cheerfully bear the expense. (Hear, hear.) But in regard to the question of an appeal to the people, I would just ask, is there a single member of this House who does not already know what is the feeling of his constituents on this question, who is not aware whether they are for the nnion or against the union ? Is there a member who does not kn ow what his constituents desire in respect to it, and who is not himself prepared to take the re sponsibility of his vote ? I believe there is not. And does any honorable gentleman think that if there was to be a dissolution and an appeal to the country on this question, the elections would turn upon the scheme itself, that there would not be individual predilec tions, personal questions, and local questions affecting the elections, far more than Confed eration ? And would it not be most anomalous to elect a Parliament, the first vote given by which would be its own death ? The sole business of the new Parliament would be to agree upon a Constitution which should annihilate itself. There is something so anomalous, almost unconstitutional and absurd in such a step, that I think it could not com mond itself to the common sense of the country. I think we are already sufficiently aware of what the feeling—the mature and dispassionate feeling — the calm conviction and views of the country are, and that too after an intelligent appreciation of it in all its bearings, and I do not think there is anything to be gained, but on the contrary much to be imperUled, by the expense and delay of an election. I know that in my own constituency — not the least important in the province— this conclusion has been come to, not from any in considerate love of change — not from any ardent and temporary impulse or vague aspir ations to be part in name of a future nation, at the risk of imperUling their relations with England or of injury to their interests, but I believe the scheme is stamped with their ap proval, because their reason and judgment convince them that it is not only desirable but a necessity of our condition. (Hear, hear.) I again apologise for the time I have occhpied the attention of the House, and express my thanks for the kind consideration honorable members have extended to me. (Loud cheers.) Mr. a. MACKENZIE moved the ad joumment of the debate. Hon. Mr. HOLTON— I would like to say a word, and only a word, before the motion to adjoum the debate is put. I have listened with very great attention to the speech of my honorable friend from Montreal Centre, a large portion of which was devoted to the 420 subject of the defences of the country. I ad mit to the full the importance of that subject, but I maintain that as yet we are not in a position to give the proper weight to the ar guments of my honorable friend and of other honorable gentlemen on that question, that in fact we are hardly in a position to consider the subject at all; and I do maintain that it is hardly fair to introduce it as an element into this discussion, so long aa the Government withhold from us the official information which may be assumed to be in their possea- sion on that subject. I have risen, therefore, to expreas the hope that the honorable gentle men on the Treasury benches will see the propriety of submitting to thia Houae the fullest poaaible information on that subject. (Hear, hear.) I am sure my honorable friend who haa juat taken hia seat will himaelf admit the force of what I am now urging, and that we cannot give the conaideration he aaka to that branch of the general aubject of Confed eration without having tbe ampleat inform ation that the Governmeut can give ua with regard to it. I would, therefore, expreaa the deaire — which I am sure is shared by a large number of the honorable membera who sit around me — that at once, before we proceed further in this debate, this important inform ation should be submitted to the House in a distinct form. (Hear, hear.) Hon. j. S. MACDONALD— My honor- rable friend from Chateauguay (Hon. Mr. Holton) has very properly called the atten tion of the Governraent to the neceaaity of having laid before thia House information aa to the amount we shall have to appropriate for the defencea of the country. It ia well known that Imperial officera were aent out some time ago to make a survey, and report on the defensive condition of this country, and the best points at which to build fortifi cations — the points d'appui, where in cases of diaaater we should be obliged to take ahelter, if the enemy drove us into our garriaona The report of those officera waa made before I left office, more than a year ago. Surely during that time, with such a loyal adminiatration aa that composed of the honorable gentlemen now on tUe Treasury benches, the secret of the amount of the appropriation that will be required at our hands has not been kept from them. (Hear, hear.) It appears to me that this is a branch of the queation to which wc must address ourselves, before we are in a condition to deal satisfactorily with the gen eral subject. It is a principle of the British Constitution that the appropriation of any moneys from the taxes paid by the people, shall beat the disposal of Parliament. We have a right therefore to know, at the earliest possible period, before we go blindly into this scheme of Confederation, what we are called upon to appropriate in connection with this matter. (Hear, hear.) And there is another point on whicb, as yet, we have had no infor mation, beyond what was given to-night when the hon. member for South Oxford answered me in his curt way. The Govemment may as well at an ear'y date — I mean the portion of the Government who wUl have to speak for Upper Canada, and who are especially respon sible for the acts of the Administration with reference to that section of the province — give their attention to the question how far the Catholics of Upper Canada are to be placed in the position of maintaining their schools and claiming their portion of the public funds, and enjoying generaUy the aame privilegea which are to be enjoyed, ac cording to the declaration of the Honorable Attomey General East, by the Protestants of Lower Canada. I expresa no opinion at thia time aa to the propriety of the demanda made by the Proteatants of Lower Canada, or as to what I shall be prepared to do when that ques tion comes up. Nor do I express now any opinion as to the propriety of giving the Ca tholics of Upper Canada more righte than they have got. But I say the Government ought to address themselves at once to the question, whether they are to make the same provision for the Catholics of Upper Canada, as for the Protestants of Lower Canada. This is a matter which comes home to the feelings of the Catholics of Upper Canada, and they have here at this moment delegates to express their opinions. No doubt, to enforce what they conceive to be their own rights, they will use as a lever the proposition to extend to the Protestants of Lower Canada the priv ileges which they claim as their due. And depend upon it, that when the time comes for the Protestants of Lower Canada to ask what they assert to be tbeir rights, they will be ex pected to stand up also for the Catholics of Upper Canada, and to deal out to them the same justice which they expect the Catholics of Lower Canada to extend to them. Hon. Mr. BRO >VN — My honorable friend from Cornwall does not of course agree him self with the views he is now urging. I think he ought to wait till the parties he speaks for ask him to express their views, or allow them to get as their advocate one who does share their views, He surely does not want to urga 421 views upon us in which he does not sympathize himself. •' ^ Hon. j. S. MACDONALD— Is my honor able friend ignorant of the resolutions whioh have been passed by the Catholics of Upper Canada ? Is he ignorant that Vicar-General McDonnell of Kingston is here at the Palace, to give effect to them ? And does he say that whatever opinions I may entertain on the question, I must not presume to ask the Government to state their intentions -with regard to it ? Their answer should not be delayed on the plea set up to-night by the President of the CouncU (Hon. Mr. Brown), that they are to consider the matter. It is a matter worthy of consideration, and I press it on the attention of the Govemment in order that they may be prepared, for it must come. Mr. a. MACKENZIE— What must come ? Hon. J. S. MACDONALD— The question must bo brought up in this House. Hon. Mr. BRO WN— WeU, bring it. Hon. j. S. MACDONALD— I want the gentlemen on the Treasury benches, when the question is brought up and put to them, to be prepared to say what they are to do with reference to the Catholic minority of Upper Canada, as the Attomey General East has manfuUy stated what he will do for the Pro testant minority of Lower Canada. (Hear, hear.) I have never come to this House to act as the champion of any religious sect. I have come to do justice to all parties, and I claim that we are entitled to understand, when it is intended to make distinctions for the benefit of the minority in one section of the province, whether similar distinctions are to be made also for the benefit of the minority in the other section. (Hear, hear.; The motion for adjourning the debate was then agreed to. LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Thorsdat, February 23, 1865. The SPEAKER reported that the House had that day waited on His Excellency the Governor General, with their Address to Her Majesty the Queen, on the subject of uniting the colonies of Canada, Nova Scotia, New Bmnswick, Newfoundland and Prince Ed ward Island in one government, with provi sions based on the resolutions which were adopted at a Conference of delegates from the said colonies, held at the City of Quebec, on the 10th of October, 1864 ; and also, the Ad dress to His ExceUency the Governor Gen eral, requesting him to transmit the same to the Secretary of State for the Colonies, in order that the said Address to Her Majeaty may be laid at the foot of the Throne, — and tbat Hia Excellency waa pleaaed to return the following gracious reply : — " Mr. Speaker and Honorable Gen tlemen : — I shall have much satisfaction in transmitting your Address to the Secretary of State for the Colonies, in order that it may be, by him, laid before Her Majesty the Queen." LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY. Thursdat, February 23, 1865. Mr. a. MACKENZIE reaumed the ad journed debate. He said — Before proceed ing, Mr. Speaker, to diacuaa the meaaure of Confederation itself, I think it deairable to revert for a moment to the position which we have occupied, in discussing those con stitutional questions that have so long separ ated parties, and involved the two sections of the province in serious diaaensions. I do thia to meet the chargea of inconaiatency brought against myself and others, becauae we support the present Coalition Government with a view to obtain the solution of the difficulties with which we have had to contend — in a way not perhapa hitherto advocated very extenaively, especially in that part of the province to which I myself belong. Since I had the honor of having a seat in this House, I have never advocated representation by population as the sole measure I would accept aa a settlement of those difficultiea. In the first speech I ever made in this House, I used the following language : — I am not myself bound down to representation by population aa the only possible measure. If the oppoaenta of that measure can suggest any other remedy, I am quite willing to give it a can did consideration ; and I am quite sure that the large constituency I represent will support me in considering any measure which will place it out of the power of the Government of the day to per petrate sectional injustice ; but until such a remedy is suggested, I feel bound to advocate 422 reform of the representation on the baaia of popu lation aa one remedy I believe to be an effective one.(Hear, hear.) The hon. member for Hoche laga (Hoa. Mr. Dorion) aaaerted that we had advocated thia meaaure merely aa a meana of remedying the financial injuatice of which we complained. That was not the caae. It is quite true that we urged very strongly — and I am not prepared at this moment to withdraw a single statement I have made with reference to that— we urged very strongly the injustice of the position in which we were placed, in coatributiug largely to the public revenue, and finding that that revenue was expended without due conaideration being given to that part of the country whieh contributed moat heavily towarda it. But, at the samo time, we felt that we were treated unjustly in another respect. We felt that it was not fair — that it could not be just — that four men in Lower Canada sbould be equal, politically, to five men in Upper Canada. We complained that our laws were framed by an eastern majority, in spite of our proteatations. It was this which aggrieved ua much more deeply than the mere loss of a certain sum of money. (Hear, hear.) Up to the beginning of 1862 the agitation for a redress of thia grievance had been carried on throughout the whole of Weatern Canada; aud I am convinced that at that time there waa not an individual who could appear in public in Canada Weat, and take any ahare in the public diacuaaiona of the day, with any chance of getting a favorable hearing, unless he asserted that he was in favor of repreaentation by population. Hon. j. S. MACDONALD— Oh ! oh ! M R. A. MACKENZIE— The hon. member for Cornwall criea "Oh!" Well, I wiU except him. Hon. Mr. BROWN— No ! no ! Mr. a. xMACKENZIE— It is true, per haps, that even that hon. member cannot be excepted ; for no one spoke more strongly than he did of the injuatice perpetrated on Upper Canada. Hon. j. S. MACDONALD— Hear, hear. Mr. a. MACKENZIE— He went even further in hia aaaertion of the righta of Upper Canada, and of the justice due to it, than I would be diapoaed to do. He aaaerted on the floor of this House that he would not submit to any legialation, good, bad or indif ferent, that came from the Administration of the day, simply because they would not accord justice to Upper Canada. Hon. j. S. MACDONALD— Any Upper Canada legislation. Mr. a. MACKENZIE— The hon. gentle man could not have taken stronger ground than that. I shall come to speak presently of his own Administration. 'The hon. member for Hochelaga seemed to think that, because the people of Canada West conducted their agitation -with a good deal of system and order, there was nothing very alarming or dangerous about it. But the hon. gentleman should have remembered that it is a character istic of the British people, that they on all occasions conduct a political agitation with due decorum and due respect to the kws, and that it is not the leas serious on that account. When they have a deep-seated feeling that injustice is being perpetrated upon them, they will not sit stUl under it, although they will at the same titne, while conducting the agitation against it, respect the rights of other parties. (Hear, hear.) I am free to confess that, when I first came into this House, I labored under some slight misapprehension of the position which the Lower Canadians occupied towards us of Western Canada. There is, or there was then, a popular opinion that the Lower Ca nadians were only afra d of representation by population, because they dreaded that the people of Canada West would use the larger power they would thereby obtain forthe inju ry, if not the destruction, of their religious institutions. That is entirely an error. lam convinced that the people of Lower Canada have no such opinion and no such fear. In speaking the other day on that subject,' the honorable member for Hochelaga (Hon. Mr. Dorion) quoted from a speech of mine deliv ered in Toronto a few days before this sesssion commenced ; and I do not think the hon. gentleman shewed his usual candor or fair ness in making the representation he did. He represented me as having stated at that nieeting, that I had abandoned representa tion by population, as a thing that was not advisable, or possible, or something of that sort. Now what I did say was this : — Having taken aome part iu public affaira, he (Mr. Mackenzie) had long felt it would be almoat impoasible, by repreaentation by popula tion, to obtain to the full extent the juatice that Upper Canada' should receive with a legialative union aa the basia of our power. Hon. Mr. BROWN— Hear, hear! 423 Mb. a. MACKENZIE— He had looked at it in thia way. The time had been when the people of Upper Canada imagined that the LOwer Canadiana were afraid to grant repreaentation by population leat western reformers ahould interfere with their religious institutiona. He waa fully satisfied that that idea was entirely erroneous — that the French people never had the alighteat fear of the kind, becauae they knew it would be political auicide, it would be abaolute ruin to any political party having the administration of affairs in their hands, to perpe trate injustice on any section of the people, to whatever church they belonged. (Cheers.) There waa one element, however, which alwaya entered largely into the discussion of aU our na tional questiona, and that waa that the French people were a people entirely different from our selvea in origin, and largely in feeling. We all had a certain pride in our native country, and gloried in the deeda of our anceatora. The French people had that feeling quite as atrongly as any of ua ; this reaaon, and alao because they were a conquered people, they felt it neceaaary to main tain a atrong national spirit, and to reaiat all at tempta to procure justice by the people of the west, leat that national existence ahould be broken down. He (Mr. Mackenzie) felt for one that mere representation by population, under auch circumatancea, would perhaps scarcely meet the expectations formed of it, becauae although Up per Canada would have seventeen more members than Lower Canada, it would be an eaay thing for the fifty or fifty-five membera representing French conatituencies to unite with a minority from Upper Canada, and thua aecure an Admin iatration aubservient to their views. These were the sentiments that I uttered at that meeting, and the sentiments to which I am prepared now to give utter- ranceagain. (Hear,hear.) I believe that that feeling of nationality has been our sole difficul ty, in working our present political system. But I do not believe for one moment that it would be possible or perhaps desirable to extinguish that strong feeling of nationality. Break down that feeling and all patriotism will be broken down with it. (Hear, hear.) I do not think it would be fair, or kind, or honorable, to attempt to do so. When Britain conquered the country, she accepted the responsibility of governing a foreign people in accordance with their feelings, so far as consistent with British policy. That feeling of nationality obtains so strongly in all countries, that, where attempts have been made, as in Austria, to break it down, they have signally failed. When such an attempt failed, though made bya despotic government, -svitji a powerful army at its command, how could we expect it to succeed in a free coun try. In Austria, at this moment, eighteen different nationalities are represented in the national councils ; and, notwithstanding all its military power and prestige, Austria has been compelled to accord locil parlia ments or assemblies to every one of those eighteen nationalities. (Hear, hear.) I have felt, therefore, that it would be utterly impracticable to obtain repreaentation by population so long as the French people be lieved, as I came to find they ilid believe, that this concession to us would involve destruction to them as a separate people, Hon. Mr. HOLTON— That is what they fear will be the result of the soheme now proposed. Mr. A MACKENZIE -No; I have yet to learn that they have any such fear. The Attoney General Bast (Hon. Mr. Cartier), in his speech, a few evenings ago, adverted to the position taken by the French inhabi tants of Lower Canada at the time of the French revolution, and claimed credit for them, because they remained loyal to the Britiah Crown, when all the other North American Coloniea threw off the British away. The honorable gentleman's claim was perfectly just. But I belie^-e that they were actuated by another feeling beyond the feeling of loyalty — that they felt their only safeguard as a distinct people — the only way to preserve their nationaUty, waa tO' remain attached to Great Britain. Tbeir exiatence for twenty yeara aa a French colony under Britiah rule, was not perhapa sufficient to give that attachment which they have now to the British Government. But it was perfectly clear to theiu that, if they entered the American Union, they would be absorbed and loat, juat aa the French colony of Louisiana has aince been. (Hear, hear.) I have been charged, and others with me, who have held the same political views, with deserting our party, becauae we have ceaaed to act with the gentlemen from Lower Can ada with whom we formerly acted. I think there is no fair ground for such a charge. For what, after all, is party ? It is but an association of individuals holding opiniona in common on some grounds of public policy, or some raea,sures which they may believe to be necessary for the conduct of the government of the country to which tbey belong. Looking at the matter in that light, there is no part of our party politics in the west, that wo have insisted upon so strongly as that which concerns the representation of the people in Parliament. Hon. Mr. BROWN— Hear, hear ! Mr. a. MACKENZIE- And, as soon as our former political frienda in Lower Canada ceased to take advanced ground on that ques tion, while the other party, hitherto opposed to us, became willing to take that advanced ground, it became clearly our duty to unite with that party who held opinions in com raon with us on matters that concerned us above all others. (Hear, hear.) At the time of the formation of the Macdonald- Siootte Government, I was, with many others, strongly blamed, becauae we allowed that Government to come into exiatence at all. It is quite possible we were wrong; but I think after all it was fortunate that the hon. member for Cornwall (Hon. J. S. Macdonald) had a fair opportunity to try his favorite remedy for our constitutional difficulties — the "double majority principle." That principle had been pressed on the attention of the country for ten years aa one amply aufficient aa a remedial measure, under which the existing political system could be harmoniously worked. In the Macdonald-Sicotte Government it had a fair trial and a speedy death. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) The existence of that Government, if it served no other purpose, showed the utter impracticability of the one means, by which my hon. friend hoped to accomplish what he, in com mon with ouraelvea, had long aime * at. (Hear, hear. Now, supposing the Lib eral party of the west had refused the terma offered by the present Ad ministration — if we had declined to sup port a government which was really giving us nearly all we demanded — I do think we would have been fairly chargeable with creating if not advocating a state of anarchy. I think it would have been a most suicidal thing, if, having obtained — if not to the full extent, yet to a very great extent — tbe concession of the principle we had con tended for ao long, we had refuaed to accept tbe aettlement offered, merely becauae a cer tain number of gentlemen, to whom we had been atrongly opposed before, were among the leaders of the new moveraent. 1 for one felt it would be quite impoaaible for me to main tain my ground in Canada Weat, if I took the reaponaibility ot acting in that way. Some honorable gentlemen have asserted, and truly asserted, that this measure is not as perfect as it might have been — and that it ia not aa complete as some of us might have desired it to be. It is not perhaps, consider ing everything, in the exact form in whioh we demanded it. But, where there are two great partiea in a nation — aa there have been with us — it is quite clear that, whei-j they agree to effect a settlement of the constitu tional difficulties which have separated them, this can only be accomplished by mutual compromise to a greater or less extent And the true question to be determined in this discussion, and by the vote at the close of this debate, is this — whether this a fair com promise or not. I am prepared to say it is perhaps as fair as could reasonably be ex pected, and I have therefore no heaitation in giving it all the support in my power. (Hear, hear.) In ita main features it ia the very scheme which was proposed by the Toronto Convention — only carried to a greater extent than the convention thought advisable or possible at the time. The speeches which were delivered at that convention, aa well aa the resolutions which were passed, shewed clearly that it was the opinion ot the dele gates there present, that a Confederation of the whole provinces would be deairable, if it were poaaible to attain it aa speedily, as they expected they could obtain a Feder ation of the two Provinces of Canada. That, I believe, was the sole reaaon why reaolutions were not moved and adopt ed in favor of the larger instead of the smaller acheme. But we have been told by the two hon gentlemen beside me — the hen. member for Chateauguay(Hon. Mr. Holton) and the honorable member for Hochelaga (Hon. Mr. Dorion) — that the scheme of the Toronto Convention took no hold upon the public mind. As to this I have to say that having had as fair an opportunity perhaps aa most men to ascertain the feelinga of the people in Western Canada, I can aaaert, without any fear of contradiction by hon. gentlemen from that part of the country, that no acheme ever took a greater or more complete hold upon the public mind in Upper Canada than the acheme of the Toronto Convention. (Hoar, hear.) And for the very reason that the preaent scheme ia merely an expanaion of that one, it has received almost universal approval in Canada West. (Hear, hear.) It is true that after the Toronto Convention was held, there was not any very strong agitation in its favor. But I have observed this, that at all the elec tions which have been held subsequent to the convention, gentlemen who have taken the same side of politics as myself have been aecustomed to say that as soon as the Lower 425 Canadians who were opposed to representa tion by population would agree to the scheme of the Toronto Convention, they were ready to meet them on that ground. Personally, I have always been in favor of a legislative union, whore it can be advantageously work ed. If it could be adapted to our circum stances in those colonies, I would at this moment be in favor of a legislative union as the best systen\ of government. I be lieve that is the general opinion of the people in the west. But it is the duty of every public man to shape his course with refer ence to theoretical principles of government, according to tho circumstances which may prevail locally. And it is quite clear that, if the legislative union could not be worked well with Upper and Lower Canada, it would woik still worse with the other provinces brought in. There remained, therefore, in my opinion, no other alternative than to adopt the Federal principle, or to dissolve entirely the connection which exists between Upper and Lower Canada at the present moment ; and that I would look upon as one of the greatest calamities which could befall these provinces. Even if this scheme were more objectionable than it is, had I the alternative put before me to accept dissolu tion ofthe union or to accept this, I would without hesitation accept Confederation rather than dissolution. (Hear, bear.") In the scheme as propounded, we have all that we could possibly demand in tha way of representation in the Lower House. Ani, besides that, we have provision made for ex tending the representation east or west, as occasion may require, according to the in creaae of cur population shown at the decennial periods for taking the census. Any thing fairer than that could not possibly be demanded. And if Lower Canada increases more rapidly in population than Canada West, she will obtain re presentation accordingly. For, although the number of her members can not be changed from sixty-five, the proportion of that number to the whole will be changed relatively to the progress of the various colo nies. On the other hand if we extend, as I have no doubt we will do, westward, towards the centre of the continent, we wUl obtain a large population for our Confederation in the west. In that quarter we must look for the largest increase of our population in British America, and before many years elapse the centre of population and power wiU tend westward much farther than most people 55 now think. The increase in the represen tation is therefore almost certain to be chiefly in the west, and every year will add to the influence and power erf Western Canada, as well as to her trade and commerce. "The most important question that ariaea relates to the constitution of the Upper Houae. It is said that in this particular the scheme is singularly defective — that there haa been a retrograde movement in going back from the elective to the nominative system. I admit that this atatement is a fair one from those who contended long for the applica tion of the elective principle to the Upper House ; but it can have no weight with another large claaa, who, like myaelf, never believed in the wisdom of electing the members of two Houaea of Parliament with coordinate powers. I have always believed that a change fiom the present system was inevitable, even with our preaent political organization. (Hear, hear.) The conatitu tion of an Upper Houae or Senate aeema to have originated in the atate of society which prevailed in feudal timea; and from being the sole legislative body — or at leaat the most powerful — in the State, it haa imperceptibly become leas powerful, or secondary in impor tance to the lower chamber, aa the masa of the people became more intelligent, and popular rights became more fully underatood. Where there is an Upper House it manifestly implies on the part of its members peculiar duties or peculiar rights. In Great Britain, for inatance, there is a large class of landed proprietors, who have long held almost all the landed property of the country in their handa, and who have to pay an immense amount of taxes. Tbe fiscal legialation of Britain for many years haa tended to the reduction of impoat and exciae dutiea on articles of prime necessity, and to the impo sition of heavy taxes on landed property and incomes. Under such a financial system, there are imraense interests at stake, and the Houae of Lorda being the higheat judicial tribunal in the kingdom, there is a combi nation uf peculiar rights aud peculiar duties appertaining to the class represented whioh amply justify its maintenance. We have no such interests, and we impose no such duties, and hence the Upper House becomes a mere court of revision, or one of coordinate juris diction ; as the latter it is not required ; to become the former, it should be constituted differently from the House of Assembly. The United States present the example of a eommunity socially similar to ouraelves, 4S6 establishing an Upper House. They have — reasoning doubtless from the same premises — not only given the legislatures of the respective states the power of nominating the members of the Senate, but have also given that body powers entirely different from those possessed by tbe elective branch. It is a remarkable fact that there is only one other government in Europe which has a system similar to Great Britain, and that is Sweden. There is another class, represented by a number of the German nations. There are Wurtemburg, Hesse Darmstadt, Prussia, Saxony, Hanover, Baden and Bavaria, with an aggregate population of about 30,000,000, whose Upper Chambers are partly hereditary, partly nominative, and partly ex-offi,cio. The purely hereditary principle, as found in Great Britain and Sweden, obtains among a population of some 82,000,000. Then there is another class nominated by the Crown for life from a list chosen by intermediate bodies. The councils choose three lists and the Sovereign nominates therefrom. In this way, Spain, Brazil and the new nation of Roumania, composed of the Turkish princi palities of Moldavia and WaUacbia, appoint their Upper Houses — Spain, with a popula tion of 16,801,850; BrazU, 7,677,800; Rou mania, 8,578,000; altojether 27,556,650. There is another class where the members of the Senate are nominated for Ufe, where the number is limited, and where some few members of the royal faraily have tbe privi lege of sitting as membera. Italy, with a population of 21,777,834; Portugal, 3,581, 677; Servia, 1,098,281; Auatria, 34,000,000. Thia claaa repreaenta altogether a population of 61,460,292. Then there is another class where the members are elected for a term of years, and it is a remarkable fact in this con nection that the countries I refer to are, with the exception of three British colonies and one monarchy, entirely repubhcan. The one mon archy in the list that elects its Upper Cham ber in this way, is Belgium ; but Belgium, although a monarchy, is well known to be one of the moat democratic countriea in Eu rope. This list includes Switzerland, whose people number 2,534,242 La Plata, 1,171,- 800; Chili, 1,558,319; Peru, 2,865,000; United States, 30,000,000; Liberia, 500,000; Belgium, 4,529,000 ; South Australia, 126,- 830; Tasmania, 89,977; Victoria, 540,322 — having a total population of 43,915,490. In Nassau we find the Upper Chambi.r partly nominative and partly ex-officio, the p ipula- tion being 457,571. Then there is Denmark, with a partly nominative and partly elec tive system, the elections being held by the Provincial Councils, the population being 1,600,000 ; while iu the Netherlands, with a population of 3,372,652, the members are elected entirely by the Provincial Councils. In one of the British colonies. New South Wales, the members are nominated for a term of years ; whUst in two of the youngest and most enterprising of the' British colonies. New Zealand and Queensland, they have tho system which we propose to adopt, of nomina ting a limited number of members for life. There is evidently room here for great latitude of opinion as to the constitution of the Upper Chamber, and I do not think we can be fairly charged with retrogression because we choose to make the members of our Upper House nominative instead of eleo- tive. Our people comprise but one class, and if the members of the two chambers are to be chosen by the same electors, it is very clear that it will be extremely difficult for both to maintain their individuality, possessing simi lar powers and privileges, and avoid collisions. It is evident that two chambers which have originated in precisely the same way, will claim to exercise the same rights and privi leges, and to discharge the same functiona ; but were the Upper Chamber nominative, instead of elective, the jurisdiction of that chamber would be, of course, correapondingly changed, and the chances of collision made more remote. There are quite a number of atates (some of them very considerable in size and population, and of recent origin) which have diapensed with an Upper Cham ber altogether. I confeaa my arguments would lead to the adoption of this system, as the one most suited to our circumstances. (Hear, hear.) The nations whioh have adopted this system are Hesse Cassel, with a population of 726,000; Luxemburg, 413,000; Saxe Wei mar, 273,000; Saxe Meiningen, 172,000; Saxe Altenburg, 137,000 ; Saxe Cobourg, 159,000 ; Brunswick, 273,000 ; Mecklenburg Schwerin, 548,000 ; Norway, 1,328,471 ; Mecklenburg StreiUtz, 99,060 ; Oldenburg, 295,245 ; Anhalt, 181,824 ; Lippe-Detmold, 108,513; Waldeok, 58,000; Sehwarzburg, 71,913 ; and in the kingdom of Greece, with a population of 1,096,810, where a new con stitution has been recently adopted, the states men of that couutry have, after some experi ence of the duplicate system, resolved to legislate with a single ch:unber. But while it is my opinion tbat we would be better without an Upper House, I know that the queation is 427 not, at the present moment, what is the best possible form of government, according to our particular opinions, but what is the best that can be framed for a community holding dif ferent views on the subject. Hon. Mr. BROWN— Hear, hear. That is the point, and therefore I acoept, aa a fair compromise, a second chamber nominated by the Confederate Cabinet. Mr. a. MACKENZIE— One honorable member — I think the honorable member for Lotbiniere (Mr. Jolt) — used the argument that the Federal syatem was a weak one. I do not think the Federal system is necessarily a weak one ; but it is a system which requires a large degree of inteUigence and politioal knowledge on the part of the people, and I think it was entirely unfair ou the part of the honorable member to compare our probable prospects in the future, under Confederation, with the past history of the Spanish republics in South America. We have in this country a population habituated to self-government, and this entirely destroys the parallel sought to be instituted. For my part, I hold it would be altogether impossible for the honorable member for South Oxford, for instance, or some other honorable members we know of, to carry on the same agitation in any of the South American republics — (laughter) — that we have aeen them doing in Upper Canada, without producing a complete revolution, and inatead of my honorable friend (Hon. Mr. Brown) finding himaelf at the head of a newspaper, controlling hia columns, he would find himself at the head of an army marshal ling its columns. (Laughter.) Hon. Mr. GALT — He would, perhaps, be found issuing a, pronunciamento. (Laughter.) Mr. a. MACKENZIE — Yes, apronuncia- mento would undoubtedly be the legitiinate result in such a state of society. The fact ia, we cannot compare auch a population with those who are educated to our own form of government. I have time and again attended political meetings with my honorable friends opposite, and after seven or eight hours in dulging in strong language, and sometimes bitter enough speeches, the people have separ ated quietly without any personal feeling being entertained the one against the other. fore, then, asserting that the people of this country are incapable of governing themselves, or that the Federal principle is a weak one, it is necessary to prove that we are not more civiUzed than were the people of South America thirty years ago. (Hear, hear.) I assume, therefore, that it is necessary to prove that our people are less civilized than the populations of the South American re publics were thirty yeaas ago, or that they have already shown an incapacity for govern ing themselves before wc can receive the as sertion that the Federal principle as proposed to be applied in our case is a weak one. If the honorable member based his argument against the Confederation on the question of weakness or strength as exemplified in exist ing governmente, he would be bound to ac cept Russia as the model for his government, there being no stronger government on the face of the earth. But a despotism is only possible where tbe people are ignorant, and an attempt to establish a republic among such a people would be out of the question, — it would only produce weakness. Were a re public to be established at this moment in Russia, it would occasion a state of anarchy, becauae the people are too ignorant to exerciae intelligently the franchiae beatowed upon them. It ia for this reason unfair to institute comparisons between these unfortunate re publics and the proposed govemment for the people of British North America. I am certain that, if there were a Federal union be tween all the colonies of British North Ameri ca, extending even across the continent to our westem confines, although great inconvenience might be experienced by such an extension, we would find a law-abiding people capable of self-government, in aU parts of the Confed eracy. (Hear, hear.) The example of the United States has been appealed to, and it is true that when the war commenced, when they found themselves unable to enforce their laws in some portion of the ' states, that it did seem to prove to the minds of those who did not understand the people, and to the writers of certain newspapers in England, that there was an inherent weakness in the system. There is no doubt that there were some indi cations of such weakness, and the conflict of sovereignty between states and the Federal Government did produce weakness. But I think the attitude of the people of the Nor thern Statea fully ahows that even with the imperfections of their syatem, which will be admitted, and which imperfeetions are avoided in the soheme now before the House — even with these imperfections, a strength, a power, and a vigor have been displayed, which have silenced even the attacks of hostile criticism. (Hear, hear.) The Federal system, then,can- not be said to be a failure with our race, neither can it bo said to be a failure in Switz erland. Thig was admitted iu a measure by 428 the honorable member for Lotbiniere, but that honorable gentleman gave aa a reason for its apparent succesa, that Switzerland waa aurrounded by a number of powerful nations. I think, on the other hand, that the reason assigned would be the very cause of a failure of the system in Switzerland. Tbe govern ment of that country would have broken down long ago if there was any inherent weakness in the form of the constitution, in consequence of the hostile systems which surrounded it. The fact of the Swiss maintaining their inde pendence so long and conducting the adminis tration of their affairs so well and cheaply, is an evidence to my mind that the Federal sys tem of government is not weak where the people are trained and educated to under stand and appreciate tbe benefits of self-gov ernment. (Hear, hear.) Then, sir, we are assured that all sorts of calamities will over take us if we change our Constitution, and many of the honorable gentlemen who pro phecy these evil resulte will no doubt, like many other propheta, do all they can to Ijring their predictiona to paas. (Hear, hear.) This is not the firat time in the hiatory of the world that prophecies of this kind have been indulged in. I was a good deal amused the other night in reading the discussions which took place in tho Scottish' Parliament on the occasion of the proposed union with England in 1707; and in perusing one of the speeches in particular, I could not help remarking the coincidence betwen the tone therein assumed and that adopted by Her Majesty's loyal Can adian Opposition. The speaker. Lord Bel- haven, used this language in depicting the dire calamities which he imagined would be fall Scotland by joining her fortunes to Eng land : — Mt Lord Chancellor, — I think I see our learn ed judges laying aside their practiquea aud deci sions, studying the common law of England, gra velled with ceriior^ries, nisi priuses, -writs of error, verdicts iu dovar, ejectione firmae, injunc tions, demurs, &o., and freighted with appeals and avocations, because of the new regulations and rectifications they may meet with. X think I aee the valiant and gallant aoldiei-y either aent to learn the plantation trade abroad, or at home pe titioning for a amall aubsistenee as the reward of their honourable exploits, while their old corps are broken, the common aoldiera left to beg, and the youngeat Engliah corps kept standing. I think I aee the honeat, industrious tradeanian loaded with new taxes ar d impoaitiona, diaap pointed of the equivalents, driuking water in place of ale — (laughter)— eating hia saltless pot tage — (renewed laughter) — petitioning for en couragement to his manufactories, and answered I by counter petitions. In short, I thmk I aee the laborious ploughman, with his corn spoiling upon his hands for want of sale, cursing the day of his birth, dreading the expense of hia burial— (laugh ter)— and uncertain whether to marry or do worse. (Much laughter.) I think I see the incurable dif ficulties of landed men, fettered under the golden chain of equivalents, their pretty daughters pe titioning for want of husbands— (laughter)— and their sons for want of employment. I think I see our mariners delivering up their shipa to their Dutch partners, and what through preasea and necessity, earning their bread £s underlings in the royal English navy. And. here, Mr. Speaker, comes the climax, and if I were asked to point to one of tbe dramatis personae in our Canadian Houae of Assembly fitted to take part in a similar scene as is here depicted, I should unhesitat ingly turn to the honorable member for Cha teauguay (Hon. Mr. Holton), who could more suitably than any one else I know per sonate Lord Belhaven when he exclaims : " But above all, my Lord, I think I see our ancient mother Caledonia, like C.a;SAR, sit ting in the midst of our Senate, ruefully looking round about her, covering herself with her royal garment, attending to the fatal blow and breathing out her last with et tu quoque mi fill." (Laughter.) It must have seemed very atrange for the statesmen of Scotland, wbo saw in the union of the two kingdoms all the evidences of coming power and grandeur, to have heard expressed such desponding sentiments as these. (Hear, hear.) No doubt the majority saw in the union whicii they were then about to consum mate, the strength which subsequently grew out of that union, and the influence and greatness by which it would be attended. At the time of the union Scotland had only a revenue of £150,000 per annum, and last year she contributed to the British exchequer nearly £7,000,000. (Hear, hear.) This, however, is but one instance of the benefit of the union, which has worked to the fullest extent aa weU as could possibly be desired. If neceaaary I could bring forward many ar guments to prove that, in the same manner, unionbetween different peoples who are geo graphically situated so as to favor it, adds to their strength, and makes them greater and more powerful than they could possibly hope to become in their several states of separation and isolation. (Hear, hear.) I am quite aware, sir, tbat in a matter of this kind it is exceedingly easy to make objections. There can be nothing easier than to carp at a set of resolutions like these. It would not be diffi- 429 cult to spend hours in captious criticism as to the details of such a scheme as is proposed. But I think we may fairly call on those gen tlemen who criticise in a hostile spirit a measure of this character, to say what else they propose to do ; for, if we cannot carry this into practical operation now, it is quite evident something else must be devised. I re collect that last year, when the present ad ministration came down to the House pro posing such a plan for settling our difficulties, aud received, as I for one imagined, the sanc tion of this House, I remarked that the course of the House was a revolutionary one, the revolution to be a peaceable one certainly, but StiU a revolution. It implied the opinion on the part of our public men, that our present system could not be gone on with ; and if our present system cannot be continued, we ought not to attempt to throw out this measure merely because it does not entirely meet the views of every member of this House. (Hear.) I think it would have beon desirable that all the members from Lower Canada should have united with us and studied out a new system, and gone to work earnestly to give it effect by the ne cessary legislation. (Hear.) I did hope that when the measure came down and we met this session to discuss it, it would not have been thought necessary by any one to organize a regular opposition. Certainly I did not expect that honorable gentlemen like the honorable members for Hochelaga and Chateauguay, who have hitherto appeared to recognize the gravity of our constitutional dif ficulties, or have at least asserted that they did, would have found it necessary to go into unqualified opposition. 1 rather thought they would have endeavored to give effect to the measure as the only remedial one within our reach. (Hear, hear.) It is not because I think the measure entirely faultless that I propose to give it my utmost support, but be cause I beUeve every other measure to be im possible now, and because, under the proposed government, the country has a great future before it. Looking at the matter commer cially, as a question of comparative cheapness, we shall not be, to say the least, any worse off than at the present moment. I believe we shaU be able to govern as cheaply united as we now do separately. I apprehend there wiU be no necessity in the Local Legislature for more than one chamber, and although this branch of the subject has not been discussed in the House, and we do not know what the propositions of the Government are to be, I may take occasion to say that I hope they will not think of adopting the double system in our local legislatures, for it wUl cause a serious increase of expenditure, not attended with a corresponding benefit. (Hear, hear.) The honorable member for Montreal Centre devoted a large portion of his speech last night to the mUitary side of the question, and argued very strongly, from the position of the neighboring republic, that it was absolutely indispensable for us to become a military power. NoW; while I am not at all disposed to take the view that gentleman does of the position of the United States relatively towards ourselves ; while I do not think that any large proportion of the people of the United States have hostile inclinations towards ourselves — though they are apt to in dulge in language that is undoubtedly unbe coming and certainly threatening ; whUe I do not at all anticipate they will adopt, iu so un justifiable a manner as he seemed to expect, any hostile measures towards us, it is not to be denied that with a population of three miUions and a half, it will be absolutely necessary for us to take some steps that will place us in a more independent poaition. It ia not honor able, it is not manly for so powerful a colony as thia ia to depend entirely on the Mother Country for protection. (Hear, hear.) I took occasion to express these views laat year, when diacuaaing the eatimatea, and said I hoped the Government would bring down a measure to pay a large portion of the expenditure at tendant on the maintenance, by the Imperial Government, of British troops among us. (Hear, hear.) Portugal, with a population as nearly as can be equal to our own, has a standing army of 17,000 men. Holland, with about the same population aa ouraelves at home, but with extensive colonies abroad, has a standing army of 57,500 men. Denmark, with a population not quite equal to one half what the Confederacy will possess, has an army of 22,900 men. Now I do not think it will be at all necessary for us to maintain a standing army like these nations. I do not think we are in the same position as theae countries, because our wealth is, to a great extent, not realized. It would be hardly fair to assess some of our new countiea, where people own nothing but their land, at the nominal value of that land, for the purpoae of paying a large atanding army ; and beaidea we have no colonies, no outside sources of wealth. I think, however, we are nearly as well able, man for man, to maintain a force necessary for our defence as the people of Great Bri- 430 tain, and whatever measure the Confederate Government may propose of a moderate, rea sonable nature, wiU, I am convinced, receive the support of the majority of tho people of this country. (Hear, hear, and cheers.) I ap prehend it is not looking at all too far forward to think of the day when another colony to the westward of Canada West will come into the union. I am of course unaware what papers may be brought down by the Govern ment in reference to the North-West and the Hudson's Bay Territory, but I hope when they do come down they will show some progress in that direction, in raising that magnificent country from the state in which it now is. I hope some system will bo put into operation for extending roads and telegraphs to that country, so as to open it up for settle ment by our own young men and immigrants coming from Europe. The question of the North-West is moat intimately connected with our prosperity as a people, and some exception has juatly been taken to the 68th and 69th paragraphs in the resolutions, which say : — 68. The General Government shall secure, without delay, the completion of the Intercolonial Railway from RiviSre du Loup through New Brunawick, to Truro in Nova Scotia. 69. The communications with the North-West ern Territory and the improvementa required for the development of the trade of the Great "VTest with the sea-board, are regarded by this Con ference as subjects of the higheat importance to the Federated Provinces, and shall be prosecuted at the earliest possible period that the stale of the finances will admit. Mr. T. C. WALLBRIDGE— That is the point. ( Mr. a. MACKENZIE— Yes, that ia the point my hon. friend ia very much exercised over, but he is quite aa much in favor of Con federation as I am. In thia paragraph, while it ia pronounced indiapenaable to have the In tercolonial Railway built at once, it ia only promised that as aoon aa the atate of the finances will permit, the North-Weat ia to be taken in hand. I think it is absolutely neces sary for the prosperity of thia colony that our canal connection with the upper lakea should be perfected aa early aa possible. Our canal system must be improved so as to accommo date the large trade that is coming from the North- W^est. On tho northern shorea of Lake Superior wo have sources of wealth that are perfectly inexhaustible. We read only the other day that a mountain of iron had been discovered cloae to the coast, quite sufficient to supply the demands of the world for 500 years. We have in that locality an abundant supply of minerals of all kinds, and unless our canals are made capable of carrying that traffic, it will necessarily find channels in another direction. (Hear.) There is an agitation among a portion of tho community for making a new canal from Toronto to the Georgian Bay, and I admit it is very desir able it should be. constructed, though I do not think it ever can be; and even if it could be, it is entirely beyond our resources at the present time. I am convinced that the true route for a canal (if a new one should be un dertaken) to the Georgian Bay is up the Ottawa, because that would be giving a great backbone to the country. If we had a fine canal, capable of carrying vessels of war in that direction, it would be a splendid means of defence, as well as a great highway for the commercial products of the west. Of course I know this to be impossible at the present time, but 1 think it exceedingly desirable that we should press on the attention of the Gov ernment, with all the influence that can be brought to bear, the necessity for having thia 69 th article attended to, though I am not inclined to go farther th an that now. (Hear.) The importance of perfecting the present and other highways to the centre of the continent muat be so apparent to all parts of our com mon country, that I see no reason to fear that the subject will not receive due attention from the Confederate Govemment at the earliest moment. Aa regarda the Intercolonial Rail way, I have taken some little interest in that, as I knew that I would be compelled to dis cuaa it on approaching this subject, and, in examining the maps and reports of Major Robinson, I find that there is no difficulty whatever in arriving at a conclusion as to the comparative cost. The route that is most feasible — that alluded to by tho honorable member for Richelieu — the northern or eastern route by the Bay of Chaleura, ia about 655 milea from HaUl'ax to Quebec. It is already constructed to Truro, some 55 mUes from Halifax, and from Quebec 140 mUes to Riviere du Loup. This wUl leave nearly 400 mUes to be built. Major Robinson estimates the cost of the road at about £7,000 per mile, or_ about £2,800,000 altogether. I do not think, judging from the statement he gives of the grades in the road, the bridges to bebuUt, and the material to be found along the line, that it is a fair inference that the cost would equal the amount he sets down. The charac ter of the ground over which the road will paas is very simUar to the raUways of Canada. 431 It is represented to be very much of the nature of tbe country through which the Great Western runs westward of Hamilton over a great portion of the line. The best portion of the line is equal to the worst por tions of the Great Western. Even at the cost of £7,000 per mile the expense of constructing the entire road would be a little over fifteen millions of dollars. The proportion of that payable by Canada would be about nine mil lions. I think it is extremely probable that when we obtain the report of the engineers sent out by our Government, it will be found that a very large portion can be constructed for much less than £7,000 per mUe. But, whatever the sum may amount to, it is per fectly clear that without the road there can be no union of the provinces. (Hear, hear.) It is equally clear that on that road there is a very large proportion of the country that is exceedingly desirable for settlement, and that only awaits the opening up of some means of eommunioation with the markets. Major Robinson reports that on one portion of it — and I confess that I was not aware of tbe fact until I examined the report more closely to day — that there is a tract of country along the New Brunswick portion of the line not excelled for timber or land in any part of the world that he ever saw. (Hear, hear.) I do not propose taking up the time of the House by reading from this valuable report, but estimates are given showing the amount of population that tbese districts will support when properly settled. He shows that the country, if the road is once carried through, will be settled very rapidly. I do not, how ever, expect that that road can possibly pay as a commercial enterprise for a long time to come, and I do not deaire to deceive myaelf or deceive any other peraon on that point. That it will be of importance more aa a mili tary work than for any other purpoae, nobody can deny. In 1862, when I opposed the pro poaition to construct the road, I then felt -that thia waa an arguraent that could fairly boused in its favor. Military authorities are atill unanimously of opinion that ita construction would be of great iraportance as a means of protection in case of hostilities. The most iraportant reason, however, why it should be constructed, in addition to the military reason, ia, that without its construction there can be no union of tiie provinces, and without a Federal union of the provincea we cannot hope to obtain a settlement of our sectional difficul ties. The one is dependent upon the other, and I believe the people of Canada are wilUng to accept the conclusion that this argument ne cessarily leads us to engage in the construction of that road. (Hear, hear.) I do not propose to-night to indulge much in figures relative to what our condition will be, financially, after this measure is carried out ; but the honorable member for Hochelaga made some statements that I can scarcely allow to pass. He was understood to say that Lower Canada came into the union without any debt, and was to go out with thirty millions of dollars of debt, whUe only some twelve millions of doUars were expended in that section of the province. Now, sir, there has been spent altogether on the canals of Canada $20,813,304.03; on roads and bridges in Canada West, $562,866, and on roada and bridges in Canada East, $1,163,829.34; onthe government buUdings at Ottawa there have already been paid over $1,513,412.56; and on raUroads there have been spent altogether $29,910,825.16, or altogether about $53,964,236.79. Now, I think that one-half of thia enormoua amount is fairly chargeable to Lower Canada. One- half or a little more than that of the works on which the money was spent are situated in Lower Canada, and, if we include the Victoria Bridge, it is considerably more than one-half. Besides these, however, there are quite a num ber of other items whicii I do not take into account. There is the Quebec Fire Loan, and a deficiency in a number of special funds that I will not take any notice of at this time. Then take it from another ]?bint of view. From a return made to Parliament, we find that the entire cost of improving the navigation in Upper Canada, including the cost of light-houaes, oanala, &c., altogether araounted to $7,022,665.61 ; that the revenue derived from Upper Canada harbora and canals haa been $4,887,291.73 ; leaving a balance againat Upper Canada of $2,145,- 373.88. In Lower Canada, during the same period, the expenditure haa been $4,484,- 566.52, while there waa a revenue of $708,086.80, leaving a balance againat Lower Canada of $4,176,479.72. I give these figures simply to prove that the position taken by the honorable member for Hochelaga was entirely incorrect ; but it would be superfluous to do that if I were to allude to one item which he gave when he was comparing the amount of debt that we would have to pay per head of our population, compared with that of Great Britain. The amount per head with us is about $25, and he gravely told the House that the amount per head in Great Britain was only $37, when every person 432 knows or ought to know that it is about $140. Nevertheless he drew a comparison showing that while the comparatively poor people of Canada would have to pay $25 per head, the rich people of Great Brit ain had only $37 to pay. It is very re markable, however, that the whole of this portion of the honorable gentleman's speech was omitted from the report given in the papers next morning. I do not propose to go into these figures, but merely to refer to a few facts to place the assertions made by that honorable gentleman in their true light before the House. Our debt is indeed very large, and we could all wish that it was very much less than it is, but we have got to bear it and to pay it, and must do the best we can under the circumstances. The measure of Con federation, in my opinion, will not add to nor yet lessen it, except what may be incurred for the construction of the Intercolonial Rail way. It is quite possible, of course, that we may undertake enormous expenditures for public works calculated to open up and de velope the resources of the country, and thus soon render our debt much heavier than at pres ent, and it -will be a question for the Govenment that may be established after Confederation, to decide how far it will be wise or prudent to undertake works of great cost untU we shall have a good surplus in hand. (Hear, hear.) One of the objections urged by the opponente of the measure is, that it is being hurried througH too fast — that in a matter of so much much importance to present and future gener ations, more time for consideration should be given. We have been discussing this question for many years in Canada West. Since the Toronto Convention of 1859, th5 question has been continuously before the people. It is now nearly a year since it was proposed in some thing like its present shape in this House, and since that time the whole of our newspapers have been writing upon it continually. We have nearly 300 newspapers in the country — and they have been carrying on a constant argument for or against the scheme, until I do not think it is possible to say or write much more upon the subject with any advantage. If the question is not now fully understood, I fear it wUl not be much better underatood by any delay that can be now accorded. (Hear, hear.) Another objection raised is, that a measure of such vast importance ought not to be carried through without its first being submitted to the people. I have mixed with the people a good deal, and I have found the opinion all but universal amongst them. that it was expedient to put the measure into practical operation as soon as possible. The people consider it utterly impossible to carry on the former violent political agitation with any benefit to the country, and the desire is general that we should get rid of the present constitutional difficulties and get settled down to some quiet and permanent way of manag ing our governmental business and political discussions. (Hear, hear.) The charges that are made against members of this House about inconsistency in advocating this measure, are very easily met. In a country like ours, so full of change, with a conatant agitation going on for constitutional changes and for new laws, both local and general, it is utterly im possible that a man can remain long in public life without being open to charges of incon sistency ; but if these are caused by a strong effort to settle the difficulties under which the country has been laboring, like the present one, I feel certain that the success of the measure in hand wUl render the charges of only evanescent existence. I think it exceed ingly desirable, even for the sake of those people who might reasonably feel the strongest objections to it — I mean the English minority of Lower Canada, and the Catholic minority of Upper Canada — that it should be settled at once. So long as the question remains in its present state, there will be a constant agi tation going on, and much injury may be done by the misrepresentations that will be indulged in, and the misapprehensions which will exist ; but if these people can be assured that the scheme provides a perfect remedy for any injustice that they might apprehend, they will immediately concur in it. As regards the people of Lower Canada of French ori gin, and who are Roman Catholics, I have always heard it said in their favor, that a large degree of liberalism characterizes their conduct toward their Protestant neighbors. (Hear, hear.) Lower Canada, I believe, was the first portion of British territory to give political freedom to the Jew. I believe that a person of this persuasion sat in the Lower Canada Legislature thirty years before the same privileges were accorded in Great Britain. People who charged the French Canadians with intolerance should remember this with some degree of favor. With regard to the people of British origin, over the whole Confederacy, I do not think it is at all necessary to defend them from any charges of this kind. I do not think they will be in clined to persecute the' people of Lower Cau ada if they had it in their power ; but I ad- 433 mit that it is reasonable and just to insert a provision in the scheme that will put it out of the power of any party to act unjustly. If the power that the central authority is to have — of vetoing the doings of the Local Leg islature — ia uaed, it will be ample, I think, to prevent anything of that kind. But the veto itself is objected to. It is objected that the elected Legislature will be rendered powerleaa by tbe infiuence of the appointed Upper House exerciaed over them. Well, sir, under the British Constitution, in all British colon ies, and in Great Britain itself, there is a certain elaaticity to be preaumed. Every thing is not provided for, becauae a great deal ia trusted to the common aense of the people. I think it is quite fair and safe to aaaert that there is not the alighteat danger that the Federal Parliament will perpetrate any injua tice upon the looal legialaturea, because it would cauae auch a reaction aa to compaaa the deatruction of the power thua unjustly exercised. The veto power ia necessary in order that the General Government raay have a cuntrol over the proceedings of the looal legialaturea to a certain extent. The want of thia power waa tbe great aource of weakneas in the United Statea, and it ia a want that will be reraedied by an amendment in tbeir Constitution very aoon. So long aa each state conaidered itself aovereign, whoae acta and lawa could not be caUed in question, it was quite clear that the central authority was deatitute of power to compel obedience to general lawa. If each province were able to enact auch laws as it pleased, everybody would be at the mercy of the local legiala turea, and the General Legialature would be come of little importance. It ia contended that the power of the General Legialature should be held in check by a veto power with reference to its own territory, resident in the looal legislatures, respecting the application of general lawa to their juriadictiou. All power, they say, comes from the people and asoenda through them to their repreaenta- tives, and through the representatives to the Crown. But it would never do to aet the Local above the General; Govemment. The Central Parliament and (>overnment muat, of neceaaity, exerciae the aupreme power, and the local govemments wiU have the exercise of power corresponding to the duties they have to perform. The system is a new and untried one, and i.-iay not work so harmoniously as we now anticip::te, but there will always be power in the British ParUament and our own to rem edy any defects that may be discovered after 56 the system is in operation.. Altogether, I regard the scheme as a magnificent one, and I look forward to the future with anticipa tions of seeing a country and a government possessing great power and respectability, and of being, before I die, a citizen of an im menae erapire buUt up on our part of the North American continont, where the folds of the British flag will float in triumph over a people poaaeasing freedom, happineaa and proaperity ecjual to the people of any other na tion on the earth. If there ia anything that I have always felt anxious about in this coun try, it ia to have the Britiah poaaeaaiona put in auch a poaition that we could aafely repoae, without fear of danger from any quarter, under the banner which we believe after all covera the greateat araount of peraonal free dom and the greateat amount of personal happiness that is to be found in the world. (Hear, hear.) A.nd when we look to the vaat territory we have in the North-Weat; when we know that the great rivera which flow through that territory, flow through imraense beda of coal, and that the whole country ia rich in mineral deposits of all kinds — petro leum, copper, gold and iron ; that the land is teeming with reaourcea of wealth calculated to build up an oxtenaive and valuable commerce, and aupport a powerful nation ; that all this we can touch and seize upon the moment we aro prep ired to open up a way to reach them and allow the settler to enter ; when we re member this, I say, I think we can look for ward with hope to a prodigious increase in our population and an immense development of strength and power. (Hear, hear.) So far our people have had to contend with the usual difficulties common to the people of all new countriea like oura ; but now Canada is beginning to aaaume a poaition of commer cial importance, and in proportion aa that importance increaaes we will be able to devote ourselvea to the opening up and aettlement of the interior, and to the development of a new nationality — ¦ to uae the term that haa been so sharply criticised — in that vast western country where there is hardly a white man living to-day. (Hear, hear.) I do not propoae, air, to follow the example that has been set of speaking four or flve hours upon thia aubject. I propoaed at the beginning briefly to give my own vi^a iu reference to the Confederation of theae provincea, and then to le:ive the ground to other honorable gentle men. 1 ara exceedingly deairoua of aeeing the debate proceed as rapidly aa possible ; and belie-mg it wiU be necessary for us to 434 speak briefly upon the question rather than -indulge in long set speeches, I determined to give an example in this respect and bring my remarks within reasonable bounds. (Hear, hear.) 1 believe then, sir, in the first place, that Confederation is desirable ; in the second, that it is attainable; and, in the third place, that it is the best thing we can get, and this last is perhaps the strongest reason of all for accepting it. It is quite clear that we must have a aettlement of our difficultiea in aome way, and I think the acheme proposed ia a very favorable settlement of them. I think it is more than perhaps some of us expected at the time when the present Government was formed to bring about a settlement; and I do think, sir, that it would be the greatest act of madneas that western members of this House could perpetrate to vote against it. (Hear, hear.) I am not, however, afraid that it will be voted against by them. I believe that tftder it we have obtained representation by population, that we have obtained What we have long contended was justly due to us, that we have obtained our legitimate influence in framing the financial policy of the country, and that beyond this we have obtained the prospect of building up a great British Union on this continent. We should, therefore, I think, in view of these great advantages, over look those objections which may be regarded as antecedent to the soheme, and endeavor heartily to carry out the work successfully. I shall willingly yield my support to the soheme, and I believe it will be acceptable to the people I represent — not only to the people of the locality, b^t tc those who surround me in Upper Canada. (Cheers.) Mr. morris said— Mr. Speaker, the member for Lambton has, I think, set a good exa,mple, and I shall endeavor if it be possible to follow it. I desire to state at the outset that tbia, aa has been well observed by many who have spoken upon the subject, is no new question ; but that in one phase or another, as was very properly stated in the narrative given to the House by the honorable member for Montreal West, it has been before the people of this country from time to time for many years past. It is not my intention to follow that honorable gentleman in his inter- eating narrative of the history of this question, but I deaire to aak'the attention of the House to the fact that this is the third time that this queation has been formally brought before Parliament by the Government of this coun try. The first occasion was, I believe, in 1858, when the then Governor General, in closing the session of Parliament for that year, used in the Speech from the Throne the following words : — " I propose, in the course of the recess, to communicate with Her Ma jesty's Government and with the government of the sister colonies, on another matter of very great importance. I am desirous of in viting them to discuss with us the principles on which a bond of a federal character uniting the provinces of British North America may, perhaps, hereafter be practicable." That formal statement was followed by the despatoh which has been referred to frequently in this House and during this debate, and which was made the basis of the motion laid before the House last aesaion by the honorable mem ber for South Oxford — which motion haa had the effect of cauaing preaent and, aa I believe, future great reaults. (Hear, hear.) I be lieve tbe appointment of the committee moved for by that honorable gentleman will be look ed back to as an era in the history of this country. (Hear, hear.) Now, as to the second occasion on which tbis question was formally brought before the attention of the Ilouse and country, we have heard from thoae who object to thia acheme, tbat the people of the country have been taken by aurprise, that they do not understand it, and that they are not prepared to discuss it. I would ask, sir, in reference to that, if this present Gov ernment was not formed on the very basis and understanding tbat it would bring about a settlement of thia queation, and if the people of the country did not know tbia to be the fact ? I hold in my hand the basis upon which the Government waa formed, in which the following is stated as the result of a long negotiation between the leading members of it:— The Government are prepared to pledge them selves to bring in a measure next session, for the purpose of removing existing difficulties hy inti o- ducing the Federal principle into Canada, coupled with such provision as will permit the Maritime Provinces and the North-West teri-itory to be incorporated into the same system of Govern ment. Hon. Mr. HOLTON— Hear, hear I Mr. MORRIS— I truat the honorable gentleman will aay " Hear, hear," with the aame emphasis when I read the next parar graph : — And the Governraent will aeek, by sending re presentatives to the Lower Provinces, and to England, to secure the assent of those intereata whioh are beyond the control of our own legiala tion to auch a measure aa uiay enable aU British 435 North America to be united under a general legialature baaed upon the Federal principle. This, sir, was the pledge given to this House and country by the preaent Government on ite formation. It was pledged to introduce the Federative aystem into the Government of Canada, with special provisions for the incor poration into this Federation of the Maritime Pro-vinces, and it was also pledged to send delegates to those provinces and invite them to join us in this Federation. (Hear, hear.) And yet we are told forsooth that these dele gates, who were thus appointed in conformity with the pledge of the Government, were " a self-constituted junta," — we were told that they had no authority for their action in the face of the distinct obligation resting upon the Government to send delegates to those pro vinces and to England with a view of bring ing about this Confederation. No self-con stituted junta were those delegates who framed these resolutions ; but they met in accord-ance with a pledge given by this Government, and must be held to have been called together with the sanction of the Parliament of Canada, because Parliament gave the Government, formed to effect the Federation, its confi dence. They met also with the sanction of the Imperial Government, as now appears from statements and despatches in possession of this House. (Hear, hear.) But coming now to the present aspect of tho matter, I feel that this country has reason to be satisfied with a scheme of so practical a nature aa that now under the conaideration of tbe Houae. I believe that the plan of union propoaed will be found to meet the exigenciea of our local poaition, give latitude to local development, and due protection to local intereata, and yet secure that general control which ia essentially neceaaary for the proper government of a country placed under the dominion of the Britiah Crown. (Hear, hear.) And while I thus look upon the plan, I deaire to atate em phaticaUy and clearly that it is no new prin ciple that the people of this country and the members of this House are asked to give their sanction to. The question of colonial union, in one shape or another, is one that has en gaged the attention of high intellects and able statesmen in England ; and I think I wiU be able to show to the House that the very prin ciple we are now endeavoring to introduce as a principle of govemment in these Britiah North American Provincea, is one that has received the sanction of eminent men in England, and more than that, the sanction of a solemn act of the Imperial Parliament. (Hear, hear.) I will go back a few years, when the condition of the Australian colonies rendered it necessary for the statesmen of Great Britain to endeavor to find a practical solution of the difficulty of govemipg those great and growing dependencies of the British Crown. What was the practical mode adopted when events made it necessary that they should form a new Constitution for the more perfect government of thoae coloniea ? Why, the Iraperial Government revived an old committee of the [Privy Council, called the " Committee on Trade and Foreign Plan tations," and referred the question to it, call ing in to ita aid, aa new membera of the com mittee. Lord Campbell, then Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, Sir James Stephen . and Sir Edward Ryan. The reault of the deliberationa of that committee waa a report in which the eminent men who compoaed it recommended the formation of a general as aembly, to wbich the control of the geneial affairs of the Australian colonies should be entrusted, with local govemmenta having local juriadictiou and certain defined powera grant ed to them. I hold in my handa a aeriea of lettera on tbe colonial policy of England, ad dressed by Earl Grey to Lord John Rus sell, wbich contain the report of the com mittee of the Privy Council that I have re ferred to, and I find that the plan there aug geated ia analogous to the one we are now aaked to give practical effect to in thia coun try. (Hear, hear.) The proposition of the committee waa that there ahould be a Gover nor General to administer the affaira of the Auatralian coloniea, and that he should con vene a body, to be called the General Assem bly of Australia, on receiving a requeat to that effect from two or more of the Auatralian legislaturea; and it waa recommended that thia General Aaaembly, so convened, should have the power to make laws respecting the imposition of duties on importa and exporta, the poat office, the formation of roada, canals and railways, and a variety of other aubjecta. The advantagea of this plan were so manifest, aa uniting thoae coloniea together and aecur ing for them a better and more aatiafactory form of government than they had before en joyed, that the report waa at once adopted by the Privy Council, embodied in a bill and aubmitted to Parliament. The biU pasaed the Houae of Commona and reached the Houae of Lorda ; but whUe before that body the two clauaea which introduced into the govemment of the Australian colonies the same system that in effect it is proposed to 436 introduce here were dropped, and why ? Not becauae of any change of 'opinion on the part of the Government on the question, nor be cause the House of Lorda was opposed to the principle, but becauae it was fo-and on exam ination that they were liable to practical ob jections, to obviate which ameudraenta would have to be introduced whioh there were no means of arranging without further commu nications with the colonies. The Imperial Guvernment would not make theae changea in the meaaure without the consent of the coloniea, but Earl Grey by no means changed Ilia mind in regard to the advantagea to be derived from the plan propoaed, as the follow ing extract from one of his despatchea, writ ten iu 1850, to the Governor of New South 'Wales, will show : — 1 am not, however, the less persuaded that llie want of some aueh central authority to rc^'ulate ma)t«r,.; of common importance to tbe Australian colonii.'s will be felt, and [a-obably at a very early period; but wheu this want i.s so felt, it will of itself suggest the means by which it raay be met. The several legislatures will, it is true, be unable at once to gue the iiecessary author ty to a General Assembly, be cauae the letfislative power of each is confined of necessity within its territorial limits; but it two 01- mo;e of these legislatures ahould find that there are objects of common interest for which it is expedient to create such an authority, they will have It in their power, if ihey can settle the terms of ail aiiangement for the purpose, to pass acts f-ji- giving effect tu it, with clauses suspending t'leir Ojieiutiun until Parliament shall huvesupplied tlie authority that is waiitiu>;. By such acta the extent and objects of the powers whieh they are prepared to delegate to such a body might be delined and limited with pieeision, and thcn^ can be little doubt that P.irliament, wheu applied to in order to i^ive etiect to an arrangement so agreed upon, would readily consept to do so. Some may say, Mr. Speaker, that this is very ti-ua, but that the British Government dropped the plan and did not proceed with it. I think I shall be p-fcpared to meet that ai-i;-u- uient, aud show tiiat it only rested in the jihiu to learn the wishes of the people of the colo nies ; for you find it following the very aame principle, reported upon favorably by the Cora raittee on Trade aud Foreign Plant.itioua, in the Con.-titutiou which wua aubseqiiently gr.mted to the New Zealand provinces. In 1852, the plan auggeated by that committee, in regard to Auatralia, waa carried into effect in New Zealand, and it muat be reraerabered that at that time the population of New Zea land waa very small, so small indeed that one cannot help contrasting the position of that country with that of British North America at the present d.ay ; but the atatesmen of Great Britain looked into the future of the colony, and they decided that it would be advisable to confer on it powers analogous to those now sought for by us. The New_ Zea land Constitutional Act created six provinces, with superintendents, provincial councils of nine appointed by the goveruor, and a general government of three estates. In the debate on that bill. Earl Grey said that this was the only form of government whicii could be con ferred on a colony aituated as that one was. He remarked : — It waa impracticable and must for many years continue to be so, for any general iegialatuve to imet all the wants of so many separate Rettle, ments at a great diatance from each other; hence it aeemed absolutely neceaaary to constitute pro vincial legislaturea on which a great portion of the public busineaa must devolva. The very difficulty which was met with there is the one we have to overcome here. It was found absolutely necessary to create in every province a Local Legislature, and in addition one cen tral power, to whom mattera common to all might be referred. Earl Gret, in the course of the aame debate, apeaking of the iraport ance of thia arrangement, said : — " There were aome aubjecta on which extenaive incon venience would arise, if uniformity of legisla tion among the several provincea were not in sured, whioh could only be accompliahed by a General Legialature." And that, air, ia what this Govemment now aaka us to adopt. They aak us to invite the Imperial Parliament to create for us provincial legislatures, to whom shall be referred all looal mattera, and that we shall have a General Legislature for the care of those aubjecta of a general charac ter which could not be ao well looked after by the provincial legislaturea. And I say, sir, that finding as we do that this is no new queslion, wc can, therefore, understand wby thia measure met with auch ready approval from the ata.tea- meu of Britain and the high commendation of Her Majeaty by her advisers. (Hear, hear.) But, iMr. Speaker, I will now pass from the conaideration of the history of this important movement — aud I assure you that I feel the difficulty of addressing the ilouso on this sub ject, in conaequence of the aense I entertain of the gravity of the queation itself and the momentoua character of the i,-sues it involves. The subject, sir, is one of tbe very hig'nest importance. The destinies of this great coun try are bound up in it. (Hear, hear.; The 437 Upper House haa already sanctioned the scheme, and I would take the opportunity of remarking that I do not think that the mem bers of that House can be rightly charged -with not having given it that deliberate con sideration which its importance demands. I think that they have shown a very proper ex ample in their discuaaion of the queation, and one that we may well follow. They debated with leisure, deliberation, and a thorough ap preciation of ite gravity, day by day, during four weeks, and I therefore think that the members of the Upper Houae ought not to have been charged with " indecent haste." Hon. J. S. MACDONALD— Who said so ? Mr. morris — The honorable member from Cornwall was one of those who said so. Hon. j. S. MACDONALD— I said it waa unsuitable haste. Mr. MORRIS — I have somewhat of a re cording memory, and I think the worda he unfortunately used were " indecent haste." However, I have no intention of disputing with my honorable friend as to the particular worda he used. I have only to expresa my opinion that the time which haa been already spent on thia question here and elsewhere has not been lost. I think it is our duty to con sider thia aubject in all ita aapecta, and be lieving aa I do that the scheme will be adopt ed by thia House, I feel the importance of a full and free diaeuasion, in order that ita mer ita may be put before the country. (Hear, hear.) Mr. Speaker, I deaire now to atate that I support the proposal at preaent under our conaideration, because in my honest and deliberate judgment I believe that tbis union, if accomplished, ia calculated in ita practical effects to bind us more closely to Britain than we could be bound by any other system. (Hear, hear.) A VOICE — It would put an end to the connection. Mr. MORRIS — An honorable member says " it would put an end to the connection." WeU, I would say to that honorable gentle man and this House, that in my opinion there are but two destiniea before ua. We have either to rise into strength aud wealt!i and power by means of this union, under the shel tering protection of Britain, or we must be absorbed by the great power beaide us. (Hear, hear.) I believe that that ia the only con clusion we can arrive at. A VOICE— But the people are againat it. Mr. MORRIS — An honorable gentleman says the people are not in favor of a Federal union. But we know on the contrary, that the people are in favor of the change. When the public mind is excited against any mea sure, is there not a means open to the people to make known their opposition, and how is it that the table of this House is not covered with petitions against the scheme, if it is so unpopular aa honorable gentlemen would have ua believe ? An Hon. MEMBER— There are no peti tions for it. Mr. MORRIS— An honorable gentleman says "there are no petitions for it." And why is it that there are uot ? Is it not becauae the Government waa conatituted on the basis of union? (Hear, hear.) The people, through a vast majority of their representatives in this Houae, are in favor of it. If they are op posed to it they have the remedy in their own hands, they have the means of oppoaing, but they do not oppoae it because they feel that a change of some kind ia abaolutely essential, and they have confidence in the wisdom of those entrusted with the destiny of the country in this crisis of ita history. But I aay that the great reaaon why this scheme haa taken the hold that it has done upon the public men of the j)rovince, ia that they aee in it a,n earneat desire to perpetuate Britiah connec tion. Hon. Mr. HOLTON— It wiU turn out a deluaion. Mr. morris — I am not a prophet, nor the aon of a prophet, but I am willing to place my prediction againat that of the honor able gentleraan who saya it will be a delusion. (Hear, hear.) A fear has been expressed that the Confederation will lead to the aever- ance of those linka which bind ua to the Mother Country. But I believe it will be our own fault if the ties between ua are broken. With entire freedom and the right of aelf-government in the fullest sense of the word, together with the great advantage of an iraproved position, and the strength and power of Great Britian to foster and protect us, why should we seek to change our con nection, what object could we have to induce us to form other ties ? (Hear, hear.) What have we to envy in the position of the neigh boring country, burdened as it is with the heavy load of taxation ariaing frora the cruel war raging there, that we should covet that fiag ? Why then ahould our coming together for the purpoae of union weaken our position or diminiah the tie that linka ua to Britain ? It will be for honorable gentlemen who do not beUeve that the union of theae scattered colo nies wiU give them strength, to prove that, 438 contrary to all precedent, union is not strength. (Hear, hear.) But I wiU state why this union is calculated to prolong our connection with Britain. It is well known that there has been an entire and radical change of late in the colonial policy of England. That policy has been to extend to us the utmost liberty in our relations to the Empire. What is after all the nature of the bond which links us to Great Britain, apart from our allegiance and loyalty ? What is it but a Federative bond ? That is what linka ua to Britain,and I feel quite satisfied, in the words of an English publicist of some eminence, that " the new colonial policy is calculated to prolong the connection of the colonies with the Mother Country." I believe it wiU raise these provinces as part of the British Empire, and so secure to us the per manency of British institutions, and bind us more closely to the Crown. (Hear, hear.) I believe it will, in the words of that far-seeing statesman. Lord Durham, "raise up to the North American colonist a nationality of his own by elevating those small and unimportant communities into a society having some objects of national importance, and give these inhab itants a country which they will be unwilling to see absorbed into that of their powerful neighbors." And, sir, our neighbors so see it. Shortly after the visit of the Duke of New castle to this country, attention was directed to the question of the union of the colonies, not only in this country, but in England and in the United States. The New York Courier and Inquirer, in an article published at that time, came to the conclusion "that the union would, in fact, be an argument for a continu ance of the existing relations between the two countries as a matter of policy and gratitude, and that such a change of government could be met with no objection of any weight." (Hear, hear.) I invite the attention of the honorable member for Chateauguay to that statement. But, Mr. Speaker, it is a sin gular study, looking back over the history of the past, to see how this queation haa come up in the experience of the various colonies. Before the American revolution, Ben jamin Franklin suggested a plan for a Federation of the old colonies of Britain on this continent, which, he afterwards said, would, according to his deliberate opinion, have pre vented the severance of the connection between the colonies and the Mother Country. I wUl quote a passage written by him after the revolution, in whioh he makes aUusion to this project. He said : — I proposed and drew up a plan for the union of all the colonies under one governmeut, so far as might he necessary for defence and other import ant general purposes. By my plan, the General Government waa to be adminiatered by a Preai- dent-General, appointed and supported by the Crown, and a General Councfl, to be chosen by the repreaentativea of the people of the aeveral coloniea, met in the reapective assemblies. The plan was agreed to in Congreaa, but the aaaem- bliea of the provincea did not adopt it, aa they thought there waa too much prerogative in it, and in England it waa judged to have too much of the democratic. The different and contrary reaaona of dishke to my plan made me auspect that it waa really the true medium, and I am atill of opinion it would have been happy for both sidea if it had been adopted. The coloniea ao UU ted would have been strong enough to have defended themselves ; there would then have heen no need of troopa from England ; of course the aubsequent pretext for taxing America, and also the bloody conteat it occaaioned, would have been avoided. It ia singular that nearly a htmdred years ago, Benjamin Franklin, looking at the difficulties then existing between the colonies, should have suggested a plan of union similar to that now propoaed to us, and it ia a strong proof of the wisdom of the plan now before this House, that seeing the difficultiea under which the other coloniea labored for want of a central power, juat as we now see them, proposing this Confederation, he should have declared that if such a plan had been adopted then it would have prevented the severance of the British connection. Hon. Mr. HOLTON— This scheme is looked upon as equal to independence. Mr. MORRIS— Is that the opinion of the honorable member ? I think that far different views prevaU in Britain. In 1858, when British Columbia was erected into a colony, it was found then that the Commons of Britain had no intention of surrendering the fair pos sessiona of Britain on thia continent, and Her Majesty was ad-viaed to say : — Her Majeaty hopes that the new colony in the Pacific may be but one step in the career of ateady progresa, by which Her Majesty'a dominions in North America may ultimately be peopled in an uubrokeu chain from the Atlantic to the Pacific by a loyal, induatrioua population of subjects of the British Crown. (Hear, hear.) I say, sir, that there is no evidence whatever that the atatesmen of Britain look upon thia great scheme as in volving the severance of our connection -with the Empire ; but these utterances, as read here the other night by the honorable member from Montreal Centre, prove directly the con trary. If breaking off from the Mother 439 Country were ite tendency, then I, for one, would not support it, nor would it be sup ported by any of those honorable gentlemen who so strongly advocate it. I am not afraid to say that any govemment which dared to bring down such a measure would be hurled from their places. (Hear, hear.) But, Mr. Speaker, I have been led into the discussion of this question of connection with the Mother Country at much greater length than I had intended, by the suggestions of hon. members, and I will take the liberty of call ing the attention of the House to a passage from a work I have already referred to, and in which we find an exposition of the policy which governed the administration of Lord John Russell. I find there an elaborate argument to prove that the colonies are an advantage to Britain, and that Britain of course is an advantage to the colonies ; and on the mere ground of material interest, if there were no other — if deeper and stronger ties did not exist as they do — I feel satisfied that this country would not be prepared to take the first step towards the severance of our connection with England, and the loas of that prestige and power which go with every British subject to every civilized part of the globe, enabling him to say, like the old Roman, " I am a British citizen." Earl Grey states that : — The possession of a number of steady and faithful aUies, in various quarters of the globe, -will surely be admitted to add greatly to the strength of any nation ; while uo alliance be tween independent statea can he ao close and intimate as the connection -which unites the colonies to the United Kingdom as parts of the Great Britith Empire. Nor ought it to he for gotten, that the power of a nation doea not depend merely on the amount of physical force it can command, hut rests, in no small degree, upon opinion and moral influence. In thia respect British power would he diminiahed by the loss of our colonies, to a degree which it would be difBcult to estimate. Passing on a little, we find him saying : — To the latter {i. e. the colonists] it is no doubt of far greater importance than to the former, because, while still forming comparatively amall and weak commumtiea, they enjoy, in return for their allegiance to the Britiah Crown, all the aecurity and conaideration whioh belongs to them as members of one of the most powerful atatea in the world. No foreign power venturea to attack or interfere with the amalleat of them, while every coloniat carnea with him to the remoteat quartera of the globe which he may^ viait, in trad ing or Other purauita, that protection which the character of a British subject everywhere confera. (Hear, hear.) But to view the subject in another aspect. I believe it will be found that all the conditions are combined in the scheme now before us, that are considered necessary for the formation on a permanent basis of a Federative union. I hold in my hand a book of some note on Representa tive Government, by John Stuart Mill, and I find that he lays down three condi tions as applicable to the union of in dependent atates, and which, by parity of reaaoning, aie applicable to provincea whioh seek to have a cloaer alliance with each other, and alao, thereby, a cloaer alliance with the Mother Country. The conditiona he laya down are, first, — That there should be a sufficient amount of mutual sympathy among the populationa. And he atatea that the sympathies which they ahould have in common should be — Those of race, language, religion, and, above all, of political institutions, as conducing most to a feeling of identity of political interest. Hon, Mr. HOLTON— Hear, hear. Mr. morris — We poasesa that strong tie of mutual sympathy in a high degree. We have the aame ayatema of government, and the aame political inatitutiona. We are part of the aame great Empire, and that is the real tie which will bind us together in future tirae. The second condition laid down ia : — That the aeparate atates be not so powerful as to be able to rely for protection against foreign encroachment on their individual strength. That is a condition which applies most forci bly in our case. (Hear, hear.) The third condition ia : — That there be not a vejy marked inequality of atrength among the aeveral contracting atates. Hon. Mr. DORION— Hear, hear. Mr. morris — Allow me to proceed with the extract : — They cannot, indeed, be exactly equal in resources; in all federations theie will be a gradation of power among the members ^ aome will he more populous, rich, and civilized than othera. There is a wide difference in wealth between New York and Rhode Island. Just as there is between Canada and Prince Edward Island. I trust I have satisfied ray hon. friend from Hochelaga (Hon. Mr. Dorion), that Mr. Mill's views are entirely appUcable to our position. (Hear, hear.) I now proceed to state my belief that we will find great advantages in the future, in 440 the posaeaaion of a strong Central Govern ment aud looal or municipal parliamenta, auch as are proposed for our adoption. I believe the acheme will be found in fact and in piaetice — by its corabination ofthe better filatures of the American syatem with those of the Britith Conatitution — to bave very great practical advanta,"es. I shall read an extract from an article in the London Times, written in 1S58, bearing on this subject, and whicb brings very clearly into view the distinction between the aystem whieh haa been propoaed for our adoption, and that whicii has been adopted iu the States, The great weakneaa ofthe American syatem has lain in the fact that the several st-dtea, on entering the union, claimed inde pendent jurisdiction ; that they demitted to the Central Government certain powers, and that they claimed equal and sovereign powers with regard to everything not so delegated and demitted. The weaknesaea and difficultiea of that system have been avoided in the project "now before us, and we have the central power with defined aud sovereign powers, and the local parliaments with their defined and delegated powers, but subordinated to the central power. The article saya : — It is ipite clear that the Federal Constitution of the United States of America forms a precedent wliich cannot possibly be followed in its principles or details by the united colonies, so long as they remain part of the dominions of the Imperial Cri.wu. The principle of the American Feder ation ia, that each is a aovereign state, which consents to delegate to a central authority a portion of ita sovereign power, leaving the re mainder which is not so delegated absolute aud intact in its own hands. This is not the position of the colonies, each of which, instead of being ao isolated sovereign slate, ia an integral part of the British Empire. They cannot delegate their sovereign authority to a central government, because they do not possess the sovereign author ity to delegate. The only alternative as it seems to us would be to adopt a course exactly the contrary ofthat which the United States adopted, and instead of taking for their motto b) Pluribus Unum, to invert it by saying In Uno Plura. (^Hear, hear,) Hon Mr. HOLTON— What are you readi ug from ? Mr. MORRIS— From the London Timex, and I quote the article on account of the force of the remarks themselves, apart from the standing of the journal in which they appear ; — The first steps towarda a Federation of the American Colonies would thus be to form them all into one state, to give that state a completely organized government, and then to delegate to each of the coloniea out of which that great state ia formed, such powers of local government as may be thought necessary, reserving to the Central Government all such powers aa are not expressly delegated. The Government of New Zealand forma a precedent well wosthy the atten tion of those who are under tiiking this arduoua negotiation.And I cannot doubt that the framers of thia Constitution have studied the precedent as well of the propoaed Conatitution of Auatra lia, aa that of the Constitution of New Zea land which has been in use for ten years paat. Hon. Mr. UOLTON— How does it work ? Mb. MORRL"? — I have uot been there — (laughter)— but I know that from a email population of 26,000 ia all the New, Zealand provinces when that Constitution was given them, they have risen iu ten years to a po pulation of 250,000 — indicating- certainly growth and progress. Hon. Mr. HOLTON — As we have grown in'spite ofthat terribly bad uuiou you wish to do away with. Mr. MORRIS — True, we have grown and progressed under the present union. But the hon. gentleman knowa tbe heart-burn- inga we have had in the past. 1 have not been in Parliament so long as thst honorable gentleman. But I recollect, when 1 first took a seat in thia House, the atate of excite ment which then prevailed, and which coo- tinued, making government practically im poaaible. For we had govemmenta maintain ing themselves session after session by majoritiea of one or two — ahewiug that it was impossible for any government to con duct public affairs with that dignity and success with whieh a government ou;i;ht to conduct them. But, as I have stated, I think the Couference has been exceedingly happy in the plan they have subraitted lor our adoption A community of Biitish free men as we are, deliberately surveying our . past as well as our preaent position, and look ing forward to our future, we in effect resolve tbat we will adhere to the protection of fhe British Crown ; that we will tell the Goldwin Smith school — these who are crying out for cutting off the coloniea — that we wiU cling to the old Mother Land — (hear, hear) — we desiie to maintain our connection ; we have no desire to withdraw 441 ourselves from that protection we have so long enjoyed; but we desire, while remain ing under that protection, to do all that Ues in our power for our self-defence, and for the development of all the great interests which Providence haa committed to our truat ; and we seek at the hands of the Bri tish Parliament such legislation aa will enable us to accomplish theae great ends for the whole of British America. (Hear, hear.) Why, what a domain do we possess ! We have over three millions of square miles of territory — large enough, certainly, for the expansion of the races which inhabit this country ; and our desire is, in the language of a late colonial minister — language which, I believe, well expresses the views and senti ments of the people of all these provinces — we would approach the British people, the British Government, and our Sovereign, with thia language : " We deaire, by your aid, with your sanction and permission, to attempt to add another community of Christian free men to those by which Great Britain confides the records of her Empire, not to pyramids and obelisks, but to states and communities, whose history will be written in her lan guage." That was the language of the Colonial Secretary, Sir Bulwer Lytton, when he proposed and carried out the setting off of a new colony on the Pacific shore — language certainly which indicated a firm and sure reliance in the power and efficacy of British institutions — that these institu tions would be found capable of all the expansion requisite to meet the circumstances of a new country, and of any body of British freemen to whom the care of these institu tions may be entrusted. (Hear, hear.) But I fear I have been tempted to forget the excellent example of my honorable friend from Lambton. (Cries of '?No, no," "go on.") I desire very briefly to notice two or three immediate advantages which, in my judgment, would be derived from the consummation, under one central power with local municipal parliaments, of a union of the Canadas with the Maritime Provinces. Let us glance at what is their position, in relation to the great military power which is rising on the other side of the lines. Let us see what they are thinking of us there. One of their eminent statesmen suggested some years ago, that they should cultivate our acquaintance, while we were still " incurious of our destiny." But we have passed that state. We have become curious '57 of our destiny, and are seeking, as far as we can, to place it on a sure and certain basis. (Hear, hear.) Here is the view taken of our position by an American writer : — They have now no comprehenaive power that embraces the interests of all — that acta on the proaperity of the aeacoast and interior — of commerce and agriculture where they are seemingly rivala — that givea uniformity in tariffs and taxes, and the encouragement that ahall be entruated to the fiahing, mining and other great interesta.That ia a view of the position of these provinces to which I commend to the attention of my hon. friends from Chateauguay and Hochelaga. I ask, is it not a correct view ? Is not that the position in which we have long been ? And I beUeve the result of this union will be to do away with that state of things. (Hear, hear.) I believe that when these colonies are combined, acting in concert, and quickened and invigorated by a feeling of mutual dependence and interest, the tendency will be to increaae their wealth and manufacturea, and general strength. And, sir, I am satisfied one of the great advantages cf this union will be found in this that we will be raised above our sectionalisms, and come to feel and to act as the citizens of a great country, with destinies committed to us such as may well evoke the energies of a great people. But I desire to point out another practical advantage which, I think, is of no mean or slight moment ; and it is this : — Bound as we are to England, by the closest ties, and yet enjoying our own government, England ia still compelled to act for ua in all mattera of an international nature. But, when we have for all theae Britiah provinces one General Government, able to take an oversight of the whole, and to attend to all their various interests, we will be able to represent to Britain on behalf of the whole, with a force and power we have never before been able to use, what these interests are ; wO will be able to press them home on the attention of British statesmen in such a manner as will lead them to appreciate, and seek to protect those in terests in their negotiations with foreign powers. I would allude, as au illustration of what I mean, to the Reciprocity Treaty, and I cannot refrain from reading a very striking extract from a report presented to the United States House of Representatives, in 1862, from the Committee of Commerce on the Reciprocity Treaty. I ask the attention 442 of the House to this extract, as shewing how the United States have been able to take advantage of our isolated condition — our want of central power and authority — to gain for themselves advantages in the negotiation of that treaty, auch aa they could not have ob tained or even sought, had we been in a position to present all the advantagea, in negotiations with the United States, which Canada and the Maritime Provinces as a whole could present. Inatead of the Ameri can atateamen having to negotiate with the separate governments of separate provinces, they would have to negotiate with the com bined intereata of Britiah North America. I read thia extract as a very atriking ono, and as entitled, on account of the source from which it comea, to aome weight. In the report I have referred to, the natural reaulta of the treaty and of its abrogation are thus apoken of : — g A great and mutually beneficial increaae in our commerce with Canada was the natural and pri mary reault of the treaty. Many oauaea of irrita tion were removed, and a large accesaion to our trade waa acquired, through the treaty, with the Maritime Provincea. Argumenta founded upon the results of the treaty as a whole, with the vari ous provinces, have a valid and incontrovertible application against the unconditional and complete abrogation of the treaty, so far as it refera to provincea againat which no complaint is made. The isolated aud disconnected condition of the various governments of these provincea to each other, and the absence of their real responsibility to any common centre, are little understood. No fault ia fouud with the acta of Newfoundland, Prince hdward Ialand, Nova Scotia aud New Brunawick. Theae aeparate provinces and that of Canada have each a aeparate tariff and legia lature, and neither of them is accountable to or for any other. An abrogation of the treaty, aa a whole, would therefore be a breach of good faith towards the other provinces, even if it were ex pedient to adopt such a courae towarda Cauada, but no advantages gained by the treaty with the Maritime Proviuces can be admitted as offsets in favor of Canada. Bach province made its own bargain, and gave and recsived ita separate equi valent.(Hear, hear.) Thia ia an inatance of some moment, and I believe the same principles will be found to apply to all those ques tions on which, in the future history of this Confederation, it will be found neces sary to confer with foreign governments, through the Mother Country. No longer detached and isolated from eaeh other, we will be able to present a combined front, and to urge the advantages which may be derived from the exhaustless fisheries of the Lower Provinoes, as well as those afforded by Canada. (Hear, hear.) The defence question has been alluded to very frequen'ly in this debate. I think there really cannot be a question that it would be forthe advantage, not only of Britain, but of each one of tbese provinces, that on such subjects as the militia, and on all kindred questions, such as those relating to aliens, the observance of neutrality and like sub jects, there should be a general and uniform action ; that, seeing the action of any one of the coloniea might involve the parent state in war, there should not be separate and distinct action, but one uniform action, on all that class of national and international subjects, throughout the whole of the British Provinces. I cannot help thinking that in practice an immense advantage would be derived from the introduction of such a system. It is not my forte, aa that of some hon. gentlemen, to speak with regard to the defence question. There are other hon, members who understand that subject thoroughly, and will no doubt deal with it in a satisfactory manner. But I cannot help thinking that a uniform system of militia and marine for British 'North America would , be powerfully felt in tbe history of this con tinent. Hon. Mr. HOLTON— Are we to have a navy ? Mr; MORRIS— The hon. gentleman no doubt listened with interest to the speech of the President of the Council^ and he might have learned from that, that we had a navy of which any country might be proud, de voted to the pursuits of honest industry, and which causes us to rank even in our infancy as the third maritime power in the world. And should the time of need come — as I truat it never may — I am satis fied that in the Gulf, on the St. Lawrence, and on the lakes, there would be enough of bold men and brave hearts to man that navy. (Hear, hear.) I would further remark, that under the proposed syatem, local intereata would be much better cared for. I am satisfied the local interests of all the separate provinces would be better cared for if their legislatures were divested of those large sub jecte of general interest which now absorb —and necessarily so— so much of our time and attention. (Hear, hear.) I wUl now only mention briefly one or two incidental advantages which I believe will be found to accrue in the future from 5ur position as 443 united provinces of the British Empire. I will not at this late hour of the night, as I see the House is wearied — (cries of " No, no," " Go on.") — I will not quote any figures to shew the extent of intercolonial trade that will spring up with the Maritime Provinces and with the West India provinces. Some years ago there was, as mercantile men well know, a large trade conducted with the West India Islands, which, from varioua eircumatances, haa almoat entirely ceaaed. I believe that, when the provincea are united, not only will a large trade spring up in those agricultural and other products which are now supplied to the Lower Provinces from the United States, but a trade will alao be establiahed with the Weat India Islands. Some time ago I took the trouble to look into the figures, and I was surprised to find how large a trade was conducted twenty-five years ago with thoae ialanda ; aud 1 believe tbat, by carry ing out this union, we will have facilities for establishing such commercial relations aa will lead to the reopening of that valuable Hon. Mr. HOLTON— You should bring in the Weat India laiands also. Mr. morris — The hon. gentleman is very anxious to extend the Confederation. (Laughter.) I have known him for long years as a Federalist, and I believe he is only sorry that we do not go a little faster. I am satisfied that when Confederation is accom plished, he will be one of its most hearty supporters. (Hear, hear.) I would now, Mr. Speaker, desire to quote a few words from a lecture delivered some years ago by Principal Dawson, of Montreal, a well-known Nova Scotian, and who is distinguished for his thorough acquaintance with the Maritime Provinces. He says : — Their progresa in population and wealth ia alow, in comparison with that ot Western America, though equal to the average of that of the Amer ican Union, and more rapid than that ofthe older statea. Their agriculture is rapidly improving, manufacturing and mining euterpriaea are extend ing themaelvea, and rah waya are being built to connect them with the more inland parta of the continent. Like Great Britain, they possess im portant minerals in which the neighboring parts of the continent are deficient, and enjoy the ut most facilities for commercial pursuits. Ultima tely, therefore, they must have wilh the United States, Cauada and the fur countries, the same commercial relations that Britain maintains with weatern, central, and northern Europe. Above all, they form the great natural oceanic termina tion of the great valley of the" St. Lawrence ; and although ita commerce haa hitherto, by the skill aud industry of ita neighboura, been drawn across the natural barrier which Providence has placed between it and the seaporta of the United Statea, it rauat ultimately take its natural channel ; and theu not only will the cities on the St. Lawrence he united hy the strongest common interesta, but they will be hound to Acadia by ties raore close than any merely political union. The great thoroughfares to the rich lands and noble scenery of the west, and thence to the sea-breezes and salt-water of the Atlantic, and to the great seats of industry and art in the old world, will pass along the St. Lawrence, and through the Lower Provinces. The surplus agricultural produce of Canada will find its nearest consumers among the miners, shipwrights, mariners, and fishermen of Acadia ; and they will send back the treasures of their mines and of their aea. Thia ultimate fusion of all the populationa extending along thia great river, valley and estuary, and the establishment throughout its course of one of the principal streams of American commerce, aeema in the na ture of thinga inevitable ; and there ia already a large field for the profitable employment of lab orers and capital in accelerating this desirable result. Such, I believe, Mr. Speaker, will be found to be the reaulta ot the ateps now being taken. (Hear, hear.) In conclusion, I would desire to call attention to the advan tages we will enjoy in consequence of our being able to do somethicig to secure the developmeot of the immense tract of country lying beyond us — Central British North America, popularly known as the Great North West. If Canadians are to stand still and allow American energy and enter prise to press on as it is doing towarda that country, the inevitable reault muat be that that great section of territory will be taken poaaeasion of by the citizena of the neighbor ing atates. The queation ia one of great intereat to the people of Canada. Yeara ago Canadian induatry puahed ita way up the valley of the Ottawa to the Great North Weat. In 1798 the North-Weat Company had in ita employment not loaa than 12,000 peraons ; and there is no reason in the world why the trade which was then carried on ahould not be reeataibliahed between the North-West and Canada. No insuperable obstacles stand in the way. A practicable route exista which can be used by land and by water, and there ia no reaaon why the neceaaary atepa ahould not be taken to aecure the development of the reaourcea of that country and making them tributary to Canada. (Hear, hear.) I think it waa a wise foresight on the part of the gentlemen 444 who prepared the plan now before us, that they laid this down as one of the principal features of the scheme — that they regarded the development of the North-West as necessary for the security and the promotion of the best interests of British North America. (Hear, hear.) If tbe House will bear with me, Mr. Speaker, I would ask hon. members to consider for a moment the extent ofthe territory there possessed. An Ameriean writer, who estimates it at 2,500,000 square miles, puts it in this way :— How large is that? It ia fifteen and a, half timea larger than the State of California; ahout thirty-eight timea as large aa the State of New York ; nearly twice aa large as the thirty-one States of the Union ; and, if we omit the territory of Nebraska, as large aa all our atatea and terri- toriea combined. Between the settled portions of Canada and the Red River country, there are areas of arable land, ranging from 200,000 acres downwards, with facilities for opening up communication by land and water ; and I do not wonder that the late Sir George Simpson, while making his celebrated journey round the world, in passing from Montreal to Red River, and thence overland to the Pacific, should be struck with the extraordinary advantages of this country, and that on one occasion, when surveying the magnificent expanse of inland lake and river navigation, in the midst of a fertile country, he should exclaim — Is it too much for the eye of philanthropy to discern through the vista of futurity thia noble stream, connecting, as it does, the fertile shores of two spacious lakes, with crowded ateamboats on ita boaom, and populous towns on its borders ? (Applause.) Sir George Simpson waa not a man likely to be carried away by mere impulse; but viewing the proapect before him, be could not refrain from breaking forth in the glowing language I have quoted. Then glance for a moment at the Saskatchewan, the Assiniboine and the Red River country, with the Red River settlement of 10,000 people, forming the nucleus for a future province — a nucleus around which immigration could be drawn so as to build up in that distant region a powerful section of the Confederation. It ia a country which embraces 360,000 square milea, and the Red River, Lake Winnipeg, and the Saskatchewan afford a navigable water Une of 1,400 mUes. And what is the character of the country ? On this point I would quote Professor Hind, who describes the valley of the Red River and a large portion of the country on its afiiuent, the Assiniboine, as " a paradise of feitility." He could speak of it in no other terras " than of astonishment and admiration." He adds that as an agricultural country the character of the soil could not be surpassed, affirming in proof of this assertion : — That all kinda of farm produce common in Canada aucceed admirably iu the Diatrict of Aasinihoia, and that aa an agricultural country it will one day rank among the most distin- guiahed. Nor are there any difficulties of climate. If any hon. member will take the trouble to examine tbat excellant work in our library, Blodgett's Climatology, he will find it stated as having been " demonstrated that the climate of the North-West coast, and of the interior towards Lake Winnipeg, is quite the reverse of that experienced in the same latitude on the Atlantic, and is highL'^ favorable to occupation and settlement." (Hear, hear.) Mr. Speaker, I desire now to place before the House the extent of the territory we possess in the Atlantic and Pacific Provinces. The Atlantic Provinces comprise Canada East, with an area of 201,989 square miles ; Canada West, 148,- 832; New Brunswick, 27,700; Nova Scotia, 18,746; Prince Edward Island, 2,134; Newfoundland, 35,913— together 435,314 square miles, to which add the territory of Labrador, 5,000 miles, making a grand total of 410,314 square miles, embracing a popu lation of something like 4,000,000 of souls. The Pacific Provinces are British Columbia, containing 200,000 square miles, and Van couver's Island, with 12,000 square miles; and there is the territory of Hudson's Bay (including Central British North America), with 2,700,000 square miles. (Hear, hear.) I desire now, sir, to thank the House for the patience with which hon. members have listened to my remarks. I rose at a late hour in the evening, and seeing that the House was wearied when I commenced, I did not wish to prolong the debate. I have thus shortened very much the remarks I intended to offer, and have treated only hurriedly and casually on many points which might have engaged further attention under other circumstances. I desiro to express my confident opinion, before closing-, that 445 this great scheme is not one which ought to be faotiously met. For if ever there was a plan submitted to any legislature which deserved to be treated with an avoidance of party feeling, it is this. (Hear, hear.) It is evident that in the House there are a large majority in favor ofthe plan, and while it is their duty to concede to the minority — what is the right of the minority — the opportunity of stating their objections to it, it is, on the other hand, an evidence of the strongest kind that the majority, in support ing tbis measure, believe they are doing the best for their country, and that it is a measure wbich meets the popular sanction and ap proval, when they avow by their own act their readiness to return to the people for their approval of the steps they have thought proper to take. (Hear, hear.) It is the duty of those who are in favor of the scheme — and I believe there are a very large majority who see in it advantages of the most substantial kind — I am firmly persuaded that it is a duty they owe to those who sent them to this House, it is a duty they owe to the country, it is a duty they owe to the great empire -of which we form a part, to bring this scheme to a speedy consummation. I am glad, sir, in taking a retrospect of the three eventful years during which I have had a seat in this House, to reflect that on the flrst occasion I had the honor of addressing the House, in 1861, I declared myself in favor of an analo gous scheme to that we are now discuvsing ; that I then expresaed myself in favor of a general government of tbe British North American Provinces, wich separate local legislatures, in the following terms, when speaking of the question of representation by population : — He had confidence that men would be found able to meet the queation fairly and to come down with a measure aatiafactory to the country. It might be that that measure would he one which would bring together the different proviuces of British North America into a union, formed on such a baais as would give to the people of each province the right to manage their own internal affairs, while at the same time the whole should provide for the management of matters of common concern, so aa to secure the conaolidation of the Britannic power on this continent. I have held this opinion ever since I have had the capacity of thinking of the destiny of thia country, and I would beg to be allowed further to quote language I used in 1859. Reviewing at that time, as I have done hurriedly to-night, the extent of our possessions, and the great advantages we would be able to obtain by the union now proposed to be carried into effect, I spoke aa follows, in a lecture on the Hudson Bay and Pacific territory, delivered in Montreal : ' With two powerful colonies on the Pacific, with another or more in the region between Canada and the Rocky Mountains, with a railway and a telegraph linking the Atlantic with the Pacific, and our inland and ocean channels of trade becoming a great thoroughfare of travel and of commerce, who can doubt of the reality and the accuracy of the vision which rises distinctly and clearly defined before us, aa the great Britannic Empire of the North standa out in all ita gran deur, and in all the brilliancy of ita magnificent future ! Some hard matter-of-fact thinker, some keen utilitarian, some plodding man of business, may point the finger of scorn at ua and deem all thia but an empty shadow — but the fleeting fan- taay of a dreamer. Be it so. Time is a worker of miraclea — ay, and of sober realities, too ; but when we look east and west and north ; when we cause the goodly hand of the north-men Irom Acadia, and Canada, and the North-West, and the Columbia, and the Britain of the Pacific, to defile before ua, who are the mastera of ao vast a ter ritory, of a heritage of such surpassing value ; and when we remember the rapid rise into greatness, as one of the powers of the earth, of the former American coloniea, and look hack over their progresa, who can doubt of the future of these British Provinces, or of the entire and palpable reality of that viaion which rises so grandly before us of thia Great British Empire of the North — of that new Bngliah-apeaking nation which will at one and no distant day people all thia northern continent — a Russia, as has been well said, it may be, but yet an Engliah Russia, with free institu tiona, with high civilization, and entire freedom of speech and thought — with its face to the south and ita hack to the pole, with ita right and left resting on the Atlantic and the Pacific, aud with the telegraph and the iron road connecting the two oceans ? (Applauae.) Such, Mr. Speaker, is the vision which is preaent to myself and to many others who, like myself, whether in Upper or Lower Canada, are " to the manor born," and whoae all and whoae destiny is here. I know and feel, and am assured that if the people of these British Provinces are but true to themselves, and if the statesmen of Britain now act aright their part in this great crisis of our national history, thia viaion will be realized. We will have the pride to belong to a great country still attached to the Crown of Great Britain, but in which, notwithstanding, we shall have entire free dom of action and the blessings of responsible 446 self-government ; and I am satisfied we will see as the results of this union all that we could possibly imagine as its fruits. ,^Hear, hear.) Thanking the House for their kind attention, I have only to say further, that I believe the plan under which we seek to aak the Parliament of Great Britain to legialate for us is a wise and judicious one, and which not only deserves, but which I am confident will receive, the hearty support of the repre sentatives and of the people of this province, and to which I, for one, shall feel it my duty to give my warmest and most cordial sanction. (Loud cheers.) Mr. M. C. Cameron moved the adjourn ment of the debate, which was agreed to. Friday, February 24, 1865. Mr. bur well, in resuming the debate upon Confederation, said — Mr. Speaker, before allowing a measure of this importance to go through the House, I feel it my duty to offer a few words upon it. The question of Federation is not a new one to my consti tuents. Ever since the Reform Convention in Toronto, in 1859, they have been quite familiar with it. At the general election in 1861, in an address to my constituents, I stated that in case we should not be able to get representation by population, I would be in favor of Federation of the two provin ces of Canada, with a Local Government in each province and a Central Government to administer matters common to both, provi sion to be made to admit the Eastern Provin ces and the North-West territory, should they see fit to enter the union, of course with the sanction of Great Britain. And at the last general election in 1863, I addressed them in preciaely tbe aame language. (Hear, hear.) The agitation for conatitutional changes had been so general and peraiatent for a length of time in Upper Canada, that it was impossible to all appearance to stave off much longer some action in reference to the difficulty. Efforts were made at different timea to secure represention by popu lation as a remedy, but without success. The nearest approach to a remedy for the difficulty under which Upper Canada labors, is, in my opinion, the resolutions of the Quebec Conference now before tbe House, and the question for consideration is whether thoy are acceptable to ^us and our people, or not. The principle ofFederation, in my view, has been a great success on this continent. I think that, if we look to tho history ol the United States, it cannot be denied that there, as a principle of free government, it has been successful ; and I doubt whether his tory records a like exaraple, under ordinary circumstances, of such great success and prosperity. The present trouble in that country — the war now raging there — is not in my opinion attributable to the federative form of government adopted there. I at tribute it to different causes altogether, which might have existed, had it been a monarchical or a despotic government that prevailed. Slavery existed there and was the cause of the war. It was opposed to the spirit of the age, and had to be eradicated. (Hear, hear.) There were, no doubt, other causes which had some influence ia bringing it about ; such, for instance, as the desire of the, North for a high protective tariff to en courage ite domestic manufactures, and the opposing intereat of the South in favor of free trade, so that, manufacturing nothing itaelf, it might have all the benefit of cheap importationa. Theae, sir, I conceive were the two great cauaes of the difficulty in the United States. Now, in forming a Federal Governmeut in theae provinces, I think we should look for an example to a people who are similar to us in situation, habits and customs. I find that example in the people of the United States. (Hear, hear.) My honorable friend from Lambton cited the example of a great many other countries, but they were not not perhaps accus tomed so much to free government as the United States ; for it was not Federation that first gave them liberty, the old colonies of New England enjoying a large share of liberty long before the adoption of Federal Government by them. (Hear, hear.) The plan proposed by the Conference at Quebec is, in my opinion, too restrictive, as regards the power of the Local Legislatures. It gives too much power to the General Govern ment. I am one of those, sir, who believe that the appointment of the deputy or lieutenant governors should not be in the gift of the General Government, but that they should be elected by the people. (Hear, hear.) I believe, too, that tho members of the Legislative Council ahould be elected by the people. (Hear, hear.) There is no element in this country — no class in this country, nor do I think it possible to create a class — the counterpart of 447 the class that composes the House of Lords in England. The British Government is undoubtedly the best-balanced government in the world ; but we cannot exactly copy the system here, because of the absence of the class to which I have referred. The nearest approach that we can have to the House of Lords is, in my opinion, an elective Legislative Couneii, the members of which shall hold office for an extended period. My hon. friend from Lambton, in the very excellent speech he made to the House yesterday, said that if both Houses were made elective their circumstances and powers would be so similar that neither would be a check upon the other; but I contend that if we had an elective Upper House, with the members repre senting larger constituencies and elected for a longer period than the members of the Lower House, it would be less liable to be infiuenced by every change of public opinion, and conservative enough in its character to be a wholesome check upon raah and haaty legislation. (Hear, hear.) But although the soheme now propoaed doea not make these provisions, there are many things in it that I can approve of. That the General Government should have control over many matters committed to it by the scheme is, I think, quite right. The customs is a branch of the adminiatration that has ramifications throughout the whole country, and it and the appointments connected with it should be in the hands of the General Government, So, too, with regard to the post office, which affects the whole country, and should be under the aame control. The militia and all mattera connected with the defence of the country should also be placed under the con trol of the Central Government; and the scheme would be defective if it were other wise. I think there is no question more important now to us than that of defence. A military spirit seems to have seized the people all over the continent, and promises to control their action for a long time. I think it wise, therefore, that provision should be made by which the General Government can put the country iuto a state of prepar ation for whatever may occur. It is well also, in my opinion, that the judges should be appointed by that government. I like to see an independent judiciary, and believe that this will be secured to us by the mode proposed in these resolutions. (Hear, hear.) It is hardly necessary for me to make allusion to the local governments ; there are so many propositions connected with them, and so little is known of what their constitution will be, that it is hardly possible indeed for me to refer to them. I would like to be informed as to their charac ter and authority before speaking of them. My opinion is, that they should have certain poweis defined in written constitutions, so that beyond these powers they would have no right to legislate, and if they did, that their legislation should be sot aside and rendered null and void by the superior courts, I believe that the British Constitu tion is of that elastic character that the institutions which exist under it can be made most popular and still work well. I think history has proved this to be the case. Under it we have kept sacred the great principle of responsible government which we now enjoy, and under which ministers of the Crown hold seats in and are responsi ble to the Legislature. Well, we want no change in that principle ; for I think it is the greatest safeguard to liberty, not only in England, but the world. (Hear, hear.) With regard to the executive head ot the General Government, appointment by the Crown as at present is the only mode that is desirable. It will not do to tamper with or change this provision of our govern ment; for if we become detached from and cease to be a dependency of the Bri tish Crown, what do we become ? We must necessarily become independent, and when that state of political existence is reached, we know not what will follow. (Hear, hear.) The question may be asked, is the Constitution foreshadowed in these resolutions such as can be accepted by the people of this country ? Is there a possibil ity, if it be defective, of bettering or amend ing it ? I think that in many of its detaila it has a great deal that is good ; and if, in portions where it is desirable, it cannot be amended, I think, nevertheless, that the people of this country would hardly be justified in rejecting it. (Hear,hear.) There is no doubt that all history shows that nothing in the way of government ia ever conaidered a finality. Changea are conti nually going on in all forma of government The political history of our own country even is proof of this faot. At the time of the union of these provinces, the memDers of the Legislative Council were appointed by the Crown, but since then there has been a change, and they are now elected by the people. At that time, too, the wardens of 448 our district councils were appointed by the Crown ; that principle was subse quently changed, and they are now ejected by the popular vote. It is impossible, sir, to take this question of Confederation into consideration, without also taking into account the question of the Intercolonial Railway. I have on several occasions spoken against the construction of that road at the expense of Canada. I never could see that any advan tage would be derived from it, unless in a military point of view ; and as a military work I did not think it worth the large sum it would cost. But if commercial advantages could be pointed out equivalent to the cost of it, then I admit its construction might become a subject of consideration. (Hear, hear.) I think that free intercourse and free trade with 800,000 of our fellow-subjects in the Lower Provinces are not light and unim portant considerations. They are, in my opinion, something like an equivalent for the expenditure — (hear, hear) — and if there are no graver difficulties than the building of this road in the scheme of the Quebec Con ference, then they may all be easily sur mounted. (Hear, hear.) That there will be great expense in the construction of the road, and in connection with Confederation, admits scarcely of a doubt. But we have cjme to a period in our history when, for various reasons, expense has becorae neces sary. We must have some change in our Constitution, and whether it be attended by additional expense or not, it is indispensable in order to remove the evils under which the country has so long labored. (Hear, Mr. M. C. CAMERON said— Mr. Speaker, I approach the discussion of this subject in no degree of diffidence or temerity, because I apprehend that it signifies very little what I or any other hon. member may say, it will receive but little attention, so far aa tending to change in the aUghteat degree the opiniona that hon. members may have in reference to the project of Confederation. (Hear, hear.) Nevertheless, though no weight may attach to anything that I may say, I feel it my duty to the constituency that I represent, and to the province at largo, to enter my protest against the passage of this resolution in ita preaent shape. (Hear, hear.) I am in favor of a union of the provinces, but it must be such a union as will benefit and protect the interests of the provinces at large ; and I feel that those interests cannot be protected and benefited ' if we are going into the extravagances that must necessarily follow such a union as is now contemplated. (Hear, hear.) The question has been considered in its political, in its commercial, in its defensive or military aspects, and in its sectional aspects, and very little that can be said by any hon. gentleman now will be considered new ; and he who speaka at this stage of the discussion will speak at a disadvantage, because he can say very little that is new. He may speak on those matters that have been discussed in new language, and so make some little change, but as for the material positions, they have' been already discussed, and by honorable gentlemen very ably discussed. I understand that the position whieh the Government of this country assumes, in introducing this measure with the haste in which they are doing it, declining to allow the people to have anything to say upon it, except through their representatives, who were not sent here to vote on any such measure as this, is that this country had arrived at such a stage that it was impossible for the affairs of the Government to be carried on, unless some change took place, and that of a radical character. In that assertion I do not agree. I dissent from it entirely, and I feel that it was not the necessities of this country that have brought about these resolutions, but that it was the factious conduct of honorable gentlemen on the floor of this House. If that factious con duct had not been persevered in, there would have been no necessity for tbe consideration that we are now undertaking. (Hear, hear.) I feel that I am making a statement the correctness of which cannot be denied; and I shall refer to the language of the Hon. President of the Council, even since this matter has been under consideration, to establish it. (Hear, hear.) It has been stated by him that the affairs of this country had come to a dead-lock. * It has been stated that we were drifting into inevitable ruin ; that our debt was so fast increasing, that it was absolutely impossible to atem the torrent, or cloae the flood-gates of the treasury that that had been opened by the mismanage ment of hon. gentlemen sitting alongside of the Preaident of the CouncU at the present time. Understand me : I am not charging thosehon. gentlemen with extravagance; I am simply referring to the language used by the Honorable President of the Coun cil. But on a recent occasion he spoke of this union as a matter to be proud of, and 449 said that every one of the provinces that was entering into the union would enter it with a surplus of revenue, and were, there fore, not obUged to go into it from necessity: that they did not enter into the partnership as a bankrupt concern, but, on the contrary, would commence business in a most prosperous condition. Now, if that were the case, wbat is the necessity for this change — a change that will render so much more extravagance necessary to carry on the government, even under the guidance of the Hon. the President ofthe Council ? Itwas said that the people of the section of the pro vince to which I belong had become satis fied tbat there was extravagance in the Government, that the people of Lower Canada were absorbing too large a propor tion of the revenue that was paid by the people of Upper Canada. It was asserted that the people of Upper Canada were pay ing seven-tenths ofthe whole revenue of the country ; that we had not sufficient repre sentation in Parliament ; and that there was ruin staring us in the face, because we had not our proper voice in the Legislature, by means of whioh we might resist the extrava gance of Lower Canadians. It was said that for every appropriation made for Upper Canada, a corresponding one had to be made for Lower Canada, and thereby the people of Upper Canada were paying more than their fair share into the common purse of the country. Taking that view of the case, I would aak the Honorable Preaident of the Council, who ia so warm in advocating these resolutions, how much the people of Upper Canada will be called upon to pay more than Lower Canada in the new scheme? I understand that Lower ia to receive 1888,- 531 from the Federal Government. Aa Upper Canada has been paying two-thirds, nay, as much as seven-tenths into the general Kivenue, how much are we granting to Lower Canada out of the pockets of the people of Upper Canada towards paying the expenses of managing their local affairs — affairs of which we in the Upper Province will bave not one word to say ? By the arrangement that is to be entered into, suppose that the Lower Provinces constitute about one-fifth of the whole — which, I presume, is all that tbey wiU contribute. Thiswould make $177,706. Upper Canada, on tbe principle of paying two-thirds, would contribute $473,884, and Lower Canada only $236,941. For the sup port ofthe Local Government of Lower Canada 58 from the Federal exchequer, Upper Canada would, therefore, have to pay no less a sum than $478,884, wbich is nearly double the amount that Lower Canada itself will pay for tbe same purpose. The amount that Upper Canada will have to pay in excess of Lower Canada, for exclusively Lower Canada pur poses, is $175,8.59. (Hear, hear.) Now that is the position in which that branch of the question stands ; but it is said that we are to become a great people, third, I think, in rank of the nations of the earth. It is said that, because wc unite with a people who have less than a million of inhabitants, while we have nearly two and a half millions, we are to become thia vaat nation, and to hold a position in the world above that of all nations except three on the face of the globe. WeU, it does not strike me that the mere fact of our joining the Lower Provinces to this pro vince by the Intercolonial Railway is going to give us that position. We need a vast population as- well as a vaat country to acquire that greatneaa. It ia aaid that we will be stronger by tbis union ; that we will 'ce better able to protect ourselves in the event of hos tilities breaking out between this country and the United States. But is that true ? (Cries of " Yes, yea," and " No, no.") Are we to become at once an independent nation that will make treaties with foreign nationa, or aro we atill to be dependent on the British Crown — a dependency that I hope will never be done away with ? (Hear, hear.) Let it be understood that I am not to be dazzled by those ideas of greatness that are being held out to us. We can never bo so great in any way as wo can by remaining a depen dency of tho British Crown. Every one of theae provincea ia true and faithful in its allegiance to the British Crown, and if that power makes war, each will do all tbat lies in ita power to defend ita own ter ritory and assist the Mother Country. But how do we gain strength from the schemo ? We obtain many hundreda of milea of addi tional frontier, and we do not get men in proportion. (Hear, hear.) We shall build a lailway that cannot possibly be of much use to us, but that will be subject to destruc tion by the enemy, and wUl be indefensible and difficult to keep open. The armies that will be brought against us by tbe United States will be too great to be resisted along the entire frontier, and no ordinary force will be sufficient to protect so long a line of communication. I therefore argue that the 450 Confederation will not make ua a atronger or a greater people than before. Then it is said that in our present exigencies we must look out for other markets for our produce than those we havo been depending upon ; that we must endeavor to become a manufac turing couutry, obtaining minerals from the Lower Provinces and sending them our pro duce in return. That ia all very fine, but it can be accomplished without entering into au extravagantly expensive arrangement auch aa thia ia. We could have a legialative union with ono Legialature or Central Gov ernment, that would raanage all our affaira on a scale as economical aa the affairs of the province of Canada have been conducted ; but when you provide fbr a General Govern ment, and then for a Local Government in each province besides, it stands to reason that the expenditure must be far in excess of that which would result from having a single legialature. The Hon. Preaident of the Couneii haa said that he is not, al though all hia other coUeagnea who have apoken on the floor of the Houae have ad mitted that they are, in favor of a legialative union, if thia union could be accompliahed. The Hon, Preaident of the Council thinka, perhapa, that thia wouid be too damaging an admaaion, ao he aaya; "I would not have a legialative union if I could. There ia nothing but a Federal union for me, be- ¦ cauae our country ia so extenaive that it would be impoaaible to control it with a Legialature aitting at Ottawa." Now, is thia so ? Would four or flve hundred additional miles of territory mako all the difference ? Hon. Mr. BROWN — The hon. gentleman ia miataken. I never uaed any auch ex pression. Mr. M. C. CAMERON— Of courae it ia very unpleaaant to bave to aay it, but my eara muat have deceived ma very groaaly indeed, if the hon. gentleman did not aaaert in the hearing of peraons in this House, when delivering his address on these reso lutions, that he preferred a Federal union, and assigned as a reaaon for hia preference the extent of tbe country. Hon. Mr. BROWN— The hon. gentle man will see that this is a very different thing from the atatement he previoualy made. What I did say v/aa thia, that it would be exceeiliiigly iiicouveuieut to raan age the looal affaira of so widely cxteu.led a country. I did not say that we couid not exercise a general control over the country. I said that it was impossible to attend to the mere parish affairs of Newfoundland, Prince Edward Island, New Brunswick and the North-West. That is what I said. Mr. M. C. CAMERON— Well, one reason assigned by thehon. gentleman for a Federal union was that in attending to the private busineaa of tho Lower Provinoes, under a legialative union, we would be kept sitting at Ottawa for nine months of the year. It ia, however, the caae that the affaira of United Canada can be tranaacted in a period of three or four montha, while according to the Hon, the Preaident of the Council, the affairs of the federated provincea would not be attended to io losa than nine months in conaequence of the private buainesa whicii would be added to tho legialation from a people numbering only aeven or eight hun dred thouaand, (^Hear, hear.) The buaineaa of two and a half milliona can be diapoaed of in three months, whilat it ia aller,ed that the buaineaa brought by the addition of seven or eight hundred thousand more would prolong the seaaiona of Parliament by aix montha. (Hear, hear.) I think that the poaition which the hon. gentleman took in reference to that, ia juat aa untenable as his position tbat a Legislative union in itself would not be better than a Federal union. Now, it ia aaid that our oommercial affaira will be very much advanced by thia arrangement. It is said that the Reciprocity treaty ia going to be abrogated. No doubt we have received notice of it. It ia alao said that it ia poaaible — although the Hon. President of the Council doea not think it ia ao — that the bonded aystem is to be done away with between Canada and the United States, and that, therefore, we would have no meana of reaching the Atlantic except during the aummer montha of the year, in consequence of which it is very deairable that this great work of the Intercolonial Railway should be accomplished, and that this union of the provinces should take place. I presume it is a well understood fact tbat a people wiU always find some channel into which to direct their energies— that there will be a channel for their commerce — that there will be a channel for their produce. Now, if the Reciprocity treaty is abrogated, and if the bonded aystem is put an end to, it will be done long before the Intercolonial Rail way can bo eatabliahed, and we uiuat theu remain auffering for a nuraber of years until 451 that work is accomplished and before we get communication with the Lower Pro vinces, except through the medium of the St. Lawrence, which ia only accessible during the aummer time. Then it would be absolutely necessary for ua to resort to some other means, to devise some other soheme, by which we might not allow the affairs of these provinces, in the meantime, to be injured, to lag and to suffer; and when our commerce flows in such new channel, it will not be easy to divert it. But is it not the fact that we have been in existence a number of years as a colony here ? Is it not the fact, too, that wo have been far removed from the sea? Is it not the fact, that wben Upper Canada was subject to duties to Lower Canada, and when we had no connection with the United States except by paying high restrictive duties. Upper Canada progreaaed rapidly and became a large and proaperoua province ? Did wo then coraplain with all these restrictions weighing upon us ? For my part, I have yet to see, if the reciprocity treaty is put an end to and if the bonding system is dis continued, that we would be unable to flnd means by which the energies of the people of thia country would find development. We would atill go on in material prosperity, if we found hon. gentlemen forgetting their faction, and allowing the wheela of government to progreaa without being unneceasarily impeded. (Hear, hear.) In one vi:w ofthe caae, if I were aatiafied that tbe people of thia country fully approv ed of the scheme, I would give it my aup port, although I diaapprove of it in its present shape. But I cannot understand why thoae hon. gentlemen who have profeased, at all events heretofore, to be the advocates of the rights and liberties of the people, should so far forget those rights and liberties as to set them aside, and allow half a dozen gentle men in this province to corabine with a number of gentlemen from the Lower Pro vinces to completely ignore and set aside the views of those they profess to represent. (Hear, hear.) It has been said that the people of this couutry have fully endorsed and approved of < his measure. But where is the evidence of it ? It has been asserted that this is a raatter which was under consider ation in the year 1S58, and that it has been mooted at different times since. But this very fact shews that it has never taken a deep hold on tbe peoplg, god oertaia it 19 that it has never been made a question up to this time at the polls. (Hear, hear.) Therefore, the people have not pronounced an opinion upon it. And I mean to say this, that if the people understood it was going to cost so much more than the present form of government, they would not be inclined to approve and to accept it as readily as hon, gentlemen seem to think. I hold that, if the hon. gentlemen who occupy tbe Treasury benches were really sincere in their views of the benefits to result from this meaaure, they would allow the queation to go to the people for the fullest consideration. In 1841 the people of this country obtained responsible government, and it was declared to them then that they should have a con trolling voice in the affaira of the country — that no important change, in fact, should take place without their having an oppor tunity of pronouncing upon it. And yet hon. gentlemen now disclaim the right of appeal to the people, and arrogate to them aelvea an amount of wisdom to auppoae that the tena of thouaanda of people of this pro vince have not the capacity to undor,stand tho meaning or the m.ignitude of this ques tion. They exclude frora these men the right of pronouncing au opinion; and is it not singular that it ia the people of the pro vince of Canada who are treated in this way ? It is not so in the Lower Provinoes. New Brunawick, for inatance, disaolvea ita House, and goea to tho people. And why should New Brunswick do that whioh is denied to Canada? Why ahould the people of New Brunawick be treated as more able and more capable of underatanding and pronouncing an intel ligent opinion than the people of Canada? (Hear, hear.) The people of Canada, I apprehend, are just aa capable of compre hending a meaaure of thia importance aa the people of New Brunawick, and they ought to have the same opportunity of pronounciog upon it. (Hear, hear.) The Honoraole Preaident of the Council haa aaid that a hos tile feeling had ariaen between both sections of the province to such a degree, that the government and legislation of the countiy had almost come to a dead stand. Now, was there such a feeling of hostUity existing between the people of the different pro vinces? Waa auch the fact? Did honor able gentleraen of French extraction meet honorable gentlemen of Britiah extraction upon the floor of this House with any feeling 9f Jiostility whatever ? Did we uot «je§^ ^s 452 friends ? They considered that they had peculiar interests to serve, and we considered tbat we had a larger population than they, and which population had not a sufficient representation on the floor of this House, and we sought a change in order to give them the representation to whioh they were entitled. Tbo President of the Council claims tbat he has accomplished a great work in gaining for the people of Upper Canada that repreaentation on the floor of Parliament. Now, I beg to join iaaue with him on that point. I asaert that, inatead of having gained for tbe Upper Province that boon, he has arrayed thirty additional votes against Upper Canada. He makes Upper Canada stand not as she ia now, but -with thirty additional voicea to contend against. (Hear, hear.) We shall pay in the same proportion, in fact, that wo paid before to the whole revenue of the country. Let ua see if I am singular in thia view — let us see whether the gentlemen who compose the governments in tho Lower Provinces do not entertain the same opinion. Hon. Mr. Tilley made thia repreaentation in a apeech which he delivered on tbe 17th November laat ; — So close is the contest between partiea in the Canadian Legislature, that even the five Prince Edward Island members by their vote could turn victory on whatever side they chose, aud have the game entirely in their own hands. Suppose that Upper Canada should attempt to carry out schemes for her own aggrandizement in the west, could she, with her eighty-two representatives, success fully oppose the sixty-five of Lower Canada and the forty-seven of the Lower Provinces, whose interests would be identical ? Certainly not ; and she would not attempt it. Mr. _H. MACKENZIE— What has tbat to do with representation by population ? Mr. M. C. CAMERON—" What has that to do with representation by population?" aaka the hon. gentleman. Representation by population waa agitated, so far as Upper Canada ia concerned, because we are paying so large a proportion of the revenue of the country ; and should the Lower Provinoes have a corresponding voice, we should still pay the same proportion of revenue — instead, in fact, of standing on an equality, we would have thirty voices moro to contend against. (Hear, hear.) Now, let us see whether, in another point of view, it is going to benefit us. It is represented by this same gentle man in the Lower Provinces that, when this change takea place, they will be relieved from the burdens they now bear ; because, as asserted in the speech to which I have referred, they have paid $3.20 per head of taxes ; and, when the change was brought about, they would only pay f 2.75 — that is, they would be gainers by the arrangement by 45 cents a head. Is that so, or is it not so ? If not, then there is dishonesty at the bottom of this scheme, when it requires arguments of that kind to further it. If it is so, then these gentMmen who assert that they are looking out for the interest and the advantage of Canada, are proving traitors to the trust reposed in them, are doing a wrong to their country, and are doing that for the sake of their own self-aggrandize ment. Hon. Atty. Gen. CARTIER— Allow me to make a remark. A little while ago the honorable gentleman quoted from a speech of Hon. Mr. Tilley, in which that gentleman, supposed the case, that on some evil day Upper Canada, actuated by selfish motives, would endeavor to obtain the passing of some measure that would be conducive to her exclusive aa;grandizement. " In that event," said Hon. Mr. Tilley, addressing himself to his people below, with the view of meeting that hypothetical case, "you will havo the sixty-five members from Lower Canada and the forty-seven from below, to unite in resisting any attempt of the kind." On that account the honorable member for North Ontario has stated that he is opposed to this scheme of Federation. He prefers a legislative union ; but of course with a legislative union there would bo the same ratio of representation, and his opposition, on this particular ground, ought to apply to the one system as much as to the other. Mr. CAMERON— I will give you a practical illustration of how this may affect our interest. It is a part of this scheme, or ought to have been a part of it, that the opening up of the North-West should be in cluded in it; that improvements should be made in that direction so that we might have the advantage ofthe vast mineral wealth which exists there, and of the great stretch of territory available for agricultural purposes as well. But this is not given to us now. The Intercolonial Railway is made a portion of this scheme. It ia made, ao to speak, a part of the Constitution — a necessity without which the scheme cannot go on. Now, suppose we ask in the Federal Legialature for the improvement of the North-Weat, because we consider it for our interest to have that territory opened up and improved, 453 shall we not find a verification of the lan guage of this gentleman — sixty-five mem bers from Lower Canada and forty-seven from the Lower Provinces, whose interesta are identical, will be united againat ua, and we will not be able to accompliah a work of that kind. (Hear, hear.) In considering a question of this nature — ^in considering a change of the Constitution — I presume every man ought to* have the interest ofthe whole at heart, and not the interests merely of individual parts — that every man from the Lower Provinces who seeks this union should desire it, not because it is going to advantage the Lower Provinces merely, but because it is going to advantage Canada as well. The argument should be, that it is to be for the advantage of the whole. It should not be an argument that $2.75 is the sum that wifi be paid by the Lower Provinces under the arrangement, wben they are pay ing now $3.20 a head to the pubUc revenue. Arguments of that kind should not be used to show that an advantage is gained by one portion of the proposed Confederation at the expense of another; for example, that the subsidy cbtained by the Lower Provinces from the Federal Government will be so great, that it will meet all their expenditures, and leave them $34,000 the gainers. (Hear, hear.) Now, I aak, are we contributing to that in the aame proportion that we are contributing to the aubaidy to Lower Canada — and ia th'at honorable gentleman who haa taken the advocacy of Upper Canadian intereata so peculiarly under hia own control, acting for the intereata of Upper Canada when he consents to ah arrangement of this kind ? (Hear, hear.) The President of the Council haa used this language with reference to the matter. He saya : — " It ia not a queation of interest, or mere commercial advantage ; no, it is an effort to estabUah a new erapire in British North America." That ia the honorable gentleman'a atate ment. But, for my own part, I think it would be better to get out of the debt whioh now burdens us, — to reduce tho expeaaea the people aro suffering from, — to lighten the taxation we are laboring under — than to - endeavor to eatabliah an erapire such as my honorable friend the President of the Council speaks of. It would be much better for us to endeavor to reduce our expenditure, and live within our raeans, than to attempt to eatablish a new empire ; be cauae, unleaa he meana by that that we are going to establish our independence, we are already, as subjects of the British Crown, sharers in all the glories of the British nation. (Hear, hear.) The hon . gentleman also said — and this was the argument he addressed to the House as a reason why his friends from Upper Canada should unite with him in supporting this scheme — " We complained, that immense sums were taken from the public chest and applied to local purposes, in Lower Canada, from which wo of Upper Canada derived no advantage." Now I ask, have we ever seen an attempt made by Lower Canada to obtain so great a subsidy as $175,000 a year in perpetuity ? And yet, that is what the hon. gentleman, by this scheme, actually concedes to them, apart from the greater expenditure we will have to pay in connection with the administration of the general affairs of the whole Confeder ation. Let us see what the seventeen addi tional representatives we of Upper Cauada are to obtain, will cost us. I make it that for each representative we will have to pay only $16,397 per annum. I make that out in this way. The contribution by the Lower Provinces to the General Government ia $1,929,272. The contribution of Lower Canada is $2,208,035. The contribution of Upper Canada is $4,416,072. I am apeak ing now of the eontributiona that go to meet the expenditure of the Federal Government. The contribution of Upper Canada is thus in excess of the Lower Provinces, $2,486,800 ; in excesa of Lower Canada, $2,208,037 ; and in exceaa of both, $278,765, which, divided by 17, will give $16,397 aa the coat of each additional member we are getting. Hon. j. S. MACDONALD— Hear, hear. Mr. CAMERON— Well, thia matter is not left to us either, as the representatives of the people, to pronounce an opinion upon it. We are to take the acheme aa a whole. We are not to be allowed to atnend it in any particular. Rut the Government come down and tell us, that in consequence ofthe union of political parties which has taken place, they feel themselves so strong that they can say to the repreaentativea of the people : "Just take this, or you shall have nothing, and revert back to inevitable ruin." That is the position in which they put us. Yet, if the statement made by the Hon. Finance Minister is correct, our revenue has increased, ao that we have a surplua of $872,000, after making up the deficiency of the previoua year. He tella us the revenue of Canada has increased by a million and a half of dollars ; and that the revenues of New Brunswick and Nova 454 Scotia have increased $100,000 each — being an increase for the whole provinoes of $1,700,000. Would we then revert back to ruin, if these statements be correct ? If our income has really increased so much as has been represented, would we, if we remain as wo are, go back to ruin ? (Hear, hear.) It has been said tbat there has been a dead- look in the affairs of the country for a con siderable length of time ; but I think the province haa not been going to ruin, if it has been getting an increase of revenue to the extent of a million and a half, notwith standing that dead-lock. I am not sure but the province would do better if this House were closed up for ten years and hon. members sent about their business. (Ironical ministerial cheera.) Then it haa been said that we are bound to accept thia scheme, if we oannot show some better means of getting out of our difficulties. With reference to that, I would say that if any of thoae hon. gentleraen were really the patriots they repreaent themaelvea to be, let them exemplify the virtue of reaignatioU' — let them leave their placea in the front ranks of the ministerial benches, and let new men be introduced to take their placea — let them do this, aod I have no hesitation in saying that parties in this country are not so bitterly hostile but a government or any number of governments could be formed to carry on the affairs of the country. (Hear, hear.) Hon. gentlemen who have been in the front of the political affairs of this country for yeara back, have fancied that the whole of the political wisdom of the country waa centred in them, and that thia country muat of neeeasity go to ruin, if they were not at the helm of affaira. Thia, I think, ia claim ing too much. However, I do not mean to aay that they are not exceedingly able men. But I would aay that the Attorney General Eaat, and hia colleague the Attorney Gen- ral for Upper Canada,, who havo been so much oppoaed and vilified by the honorable gentlemen wbo are now aa- sociated with them in the Government, must havo felt exceedingly gratified when they found that after all the charges of corruption which had been brought against them, theae pure patriots from our section of the country were willing to place them selves side by side with tbem to' carry on the affairs of the oountry. (Hear, hear.) It was represented by the Honorable Provincial Secretary in a politioal conteat that he and I bad together^-and which? — when we were in the field, we carried on pretty plear santly, notwithstanding there had been some rather sharp passages at arms on the floor of this House between us — that honorable gentleman, in excusing himself before the electors for the change he had made in his views on the question of representation by population, said the financial crisis of the oountry had become so much more imminent than the conatitutional, tbat it was absolutely necessary to take office — in fact, to join the gentlemen of Lower Canada, who made re presentation by population a close question. We must look after the purse-strings, he said, or the country will go to ruin. It is very gratifying now to find that honorable gentle man now in a position in which he is going to create so much larger a debt than before. It is quite gratifying to find him now seated on the Treasury benches advocating the addition al burdens, to the extent of miUions of dollars, that will be caat upon ua by thia union and the construction of the Intercolonial Railway. At one time, and it was not long since, thia country was agitated from one end to the other with the statement that the public debt was so great as to amount to a mortgage of 125 upon every cleared aore of land in the province, and now those who made this state ment wish to add millions more to the debt by this railway, and to add as it were $5 more to the debt per head of every man in the land. (Hear, hear.) Now, if the Honorable Pro vincial Secretary was sincere in his argument that retrenchment was necessary to save us from ruin, how can he reconcile it with his sense of duty and propriety that he should be found advocating this vast extravagance at this time, when there is no imminent danger to call for it, but, on the contrary, a degree of proaperity that ahould make us exceedingly careful how we adopt experimental changes. I find honorable gentlemen complaining of the incapacity of our railways to meet the commercial requirements made upon them-r- to do the business of the country properly. It is true the crops are not so abundant as they were ; no foresight or management wiU ensure us a plentiful harvest, but still, even according to these honorable gentlemen, the trade of the province ia growing, and their atatementa altogether in thia reapect do not show that we are going to ruin. A people who are increaaing in population as we are increasing, who are growing in wealth aa we are, and who, over and above all our expendi ture, have a million and a half surplus revenue, are not rushing to ruin iq tbe ipanner that hag 455 been represented by some honorable gentlemen. I say, then, that we ought not to hasten on a change that may prove injurious tous, without asking the people themselves whether they approve of it or not. (Hear, hear.) So anxious are the honorable gentlemen on the Treasury benches to have it carried, that they even quarrel amongst themselves as to the parentage of the scheme ; and the House was amused tbe other day when the Hon. Presi dent of the Council took the Hon. Attorney General West to task because that honorable gentleman presumed to say that it was his Government that had first brought the matter up. (Laughter.) Tbey appear to take great pride in the child, but this country of ours, the mother of the bantling, is travailing in agony from fear of the burdens that these honorable gentlemen are endeavoring to put upon it. (Hear, hear.) The Honorable Minister of Agriculture the other evening called our attention to the affairs that are occurring in the United States, and spoke of ,the army of contractors and tax-gatherers that was springing up there. He said tbat the cry of " Tax, tax, taxi" came up perpetually from the tax-gatherers, and the cry of " Money, money, money!" from the hordes of contrac tors who are fattening upon the miseries of the people ; and while he was talking of the message conveyed to us in the sound of every gun fired in the United States, he may have thought perhaps that in the formation of thia union and the building of tbis Intercolonial Railway, we too shall hear the criea of "Tax, tax, tax! money, money, money 1" in the same way. (Hear, hear.) It is said again, in reference to this scheme, that every line of it shows a compromise. The Hon. Minister of Agriculture, if I remember right, used an expression of that kind. But I would ask the Preaident of the Council and thoae who with him have been advocating the intereata of Upper Canada, where is there any coneession to Upper Canada in it ? If they can point out one solitary instance, with the exception of the seventeen additional mem bers given to the weat, where anything has been conceded to that section, then I will say the scheme is deserving of my support. But I hold that the additional number of repre sentatives given to Upper Canada is no boon or concession. The differences between the two provinces of Canada were not merely na tional differences, but were of a sectional character. It was the West arrayed against the east, rather than nationality against na tionality, for was it not a fact that the sixteen English-speaking members from Lower Canar da united themselves with the French-Cana dian majority, and not with the majority of their own race in Upper Canada? The Eng lish members from Central Canada did the same ; and I contend, therefore, that the dif ferences we had were sectional in tbeir nature, and that we had no national differences thai rendered a change at this time necessary. Are we going to get rid of these sectional dif ferences by this scheme ? Will not the thirty additional members called into 'this legislature from the east unite with the Lower Canadian majority, and will not the same preponderance of influence be cast against Upper Canada as before ? (Hear, hear.) Now, if a union of free people is to be brought about, it should be because the people desire it and feel that it is advantageous on the whole ; and I am quite satisfie4 that if, in these provinces, we are to have a union that will confer any advantage upon ua, it ought to be a Legislative and not a Federal union. We should feel that if we are to be united, it ought to be in fact as well as in name ; that we ought to be one people, and not separated from each other by sec tions ; that if we go into a union, it ought to be such a union as would make us one people ; and that when a state of things arises favor able to such a union, we will have an oppor tunity of forming a union that will give us strength and protect our interesta in all time to come. The Honorable Preaident of the Council thinks that we should enter the union proposed for the purpose of protecting and defending ourselves. I would like to know of that honorable gentleman if he thinks that we, with a population of two milliona and a half, can create a aufficient armament, and raiae a aufficient number of men to repel the mil lions of the United Statea, ahould they choose to attack us? (Hear, hear.) I do not sup pose, Mr. Speaker, that there would be any more ready to defend the honor and integrity of Great Britain in this country than those who feel aa I do in reference to thia matter ; and I am satisfied that, even with the know ledge of certain destruction before us, if at tacked by the United States, we would have defenders springing up at any moment — de fenders to sell their lives as dearly aa possible, and to fight inch by inch before they would be compelled to surrender the honor of the British Crown. But stiU, sir, we cannot help feeling the vaat disparity of numbers between us and the United States ; we can form no ar mament that could repel them from every por tion of our territory, and spending mUlions now 456 in that direction is but crippling our resources aud weakening us for the time of need. If these moneys we now propose to spend in that way were carefully husbanded, we will have them when the necessity arises, and be able to use them to better purpose than in defending ourselves. (Hear, hear.) Some say that Canada is defensible, and others say that it is entirely defenceless ; but I apprehend that there are certain points in the country which could be so fortified that they could be held against any foe. While so held, the rest of the country would probably be under the con trol of the enemy, and would remain so until the fate of war decided whether we were to remain as we were or be absorbed in the neighboring union. Now, it was said by the Hon. Miniater of Agriculture that we are to have fortifications at St. John, New Bruns wick ; and if this union is to be brought about in order that we may be taxed for the purpose of constructing fortifications in New Brunswick, it will certainly be of little service to the people of Canada in preventing their country being invaded and overrun by an enemy. Fortifications in St. John, New Brunswick, would not protect us from the foe, if the foe were to come here. They, of course, would be an advantage to the country at large and aid in sustaining the Britiah dominion in thia part of the continent, and so far we would not object to contribute to a reaaonable ex tent to an expenditure of that kind ; but I do say that it would be quite impossible by for tifications to make the country so defensible that we could resist aggression on the part of the United States at every point. To endea vor to make it so would be a waste of money. Mr. McKELLAR. — ,What would you do then ? Surrender to the enemy ? Mr. CAMERON.— No, I would not. Mr. McKELLAR.— What would you do if you neither spent money nor surrendered? Mr. CAMERON— We would do as many brave people have done before when thoy were attacked ; and the country from which the honorable gentleman comes is a marked exam ple of what a small nation can do against overwhelming numbers, without fortifications, such as it is here proposed to put up. (Hear, hear.) Hon. Mr. BROWN— It is aomething new that a country can be defended without forti fications. (Hear, hear.) Mr. CAMERON— I do not know whether honorable gentlemen mean tbat tbis country is capable of undertaking the expenses that would be necessary to put it in such a state of defence aa to enable it to resist the aggression of the United States. I want to know whe ther with two and a half miUions of people, we could cope with an army of millions — be cause the United States have shown that they are capable of raising such an army — or make fortifications that could resist it. (Hear, hear.) The Hon. Provincial Secretary has spoken on the floor of Parliament as well as to the electors in the country, to the effect that it was retrenchment we needed more than constitutional changes ; and yet now he says that the people are not to have one word to say in reference to these vital changes that are proposed, and the vastly increased expenditure that is to take place. In addressing this House in 1862, he said — " The finances of the country are growing worse and worse, and a check must be applied. It was chiefly for this cause tbat the people of Upper Canada desired a change in the representation." Now, I should like to understand how a union with 800,000 people, with immense expenditure, is going to improve our finances, which, accord ing to the honorable gentleman, are "growing worse and worse." (Hear, hear.) I have not heard in what has been yet said on the subject of these resolutions, anything to show me how this great increase and improvement is going to take place by a union with less than a mil lion of people ; but arguments for the union, when directed merely to the material intereata that will be aerved by it, are arguments ten-fold stronger in favor of union with the United States. (Hear, hear.) The arguments of honorable gentlemen all point that way, because they say it is to our interest to be joined with the 800,000 people of the provinces, who will furniah us with a market for our produce, when we have on the other side of the line thirty millions of people to furnish us a mar ket. Arguments of this" kind, urging the measure because our material interests will be promoted by it, are, therefore, arguments for union with the United States rather than with the Lower Provinces ; but union with the United States, I hope, will never take place. (Hear, hear.) Still I cannot help believing that this is the tendency of the measure ; for when we have a legislature in each provinc:, with powers coordinate with those of the Federal Legislature — or if not possessing co ordinate powera, having the same right at leaat to legialate upon some subjects as the General Legislature — there are certain to arise disagree ments between the Local and the General Legislature, which will lead the people to de mand changes that may destroy our connection 457 with the Mother Country. The Federal cha racter of the United States Government haa been referred to to prove that it has increased the prosperity of the people living under it ; but in point of fact the great and relentless war that is now raging there — that fratricidal war in which brother is arrayed against bro ther, filled -with hatred toward each other, and which has plunged the country into all the horrors of the deadliest strife — is the strongest comment upon the working of the Federal principle — the strongest argu ment against its application to tbese pro vinces. (Hear, hear.) The French element in Lower Canada will be separated from us in its Local Legislature and become less united with us than it is now ; and therefore there is likely to be disagreement between us. Still more likely is there to be disagreement when the people of Upper Canada find that this scheme wiU not relieve them of the bur dens caat upon them, but, on the contr.ary, will subject them to a legislature that will have the power of imposing direct taxation in addi tion to the burdens imposed by the General Govemment. When they find that this power is exercised, and they are called upon to contribute as much as before to the Gene ral Government, while taxed to maintain a sep arate Local Legislature — when they find that the material question is to weigh with them, they will look to the other side of the line for union. I feel that wc are going to do that whioh will weaken our connection with the Mother Country, because if you give power to legislate upon the same subjects to both the local and the federal legislatures, and allow both to impose taxation upon the people, dis agreements will spring up which must neces sarily have that effect. (Hear, hear.) Then again, by this scheme that is laid before ua, certain things are to be legislated upon by both the general and the local legislaturea, and yet the local legislation is to be subor dinate to the legislation of the Federal Parlia ment. For instance, emigration and agricul ture are to be subject to the control of both bodiea. Now suppose that the Federal Legis lature chooses to decide in favor of having emigration flow to a particular locality, so as to benefit one province alone — I do not mean this expression to be understood in its entire sense, because I think that emigration in any one portion will benefit the whole, but it -will benefit the particular locality much more at the time — and if provision is made by tbe General Legislature for emigration of that kind, and grante are made from the public 59 funds to carry it out, it will cause much com plaint, as the people who are paying the great est proportion of the revenue will be subject to the drafts upon them as before. Suppose again, for instance, that arrangements are made for emigration to a particular part of Lower Canada or New Brunswick, and a grant is made for tbe purpose, who is to say whether it is for the local or general good ? It is the Federal Legislature that has to pro nounce upon it. The expenditure and the benefit would be received by a portion of the pro-vince lying remote from that which pays the largest proportion of the money, and so we would not be relieved from the difficulties that have exiated between Upper and Lower Canada. Thia being the caae, the reasoning on which this whole scheme is based falls to the ground. (Hear, hear.) But this question has been of some ser-vice. It has enabled us to ascertain what our debt is. This sve have never previously been enabled with certainty to find out. Our higheat authorities have widely dif fered in footing it up. I recollect the Hon. Preaident of the Council asserting that our debt was eighty-five millions of doUars. Hon. Mr. BROWN— When did you hear that? Mr. M. C. CAMERON— I heard it in one of the speeches which you made on the floor of this House. You remarked tbat you had gone to the Auditor that very moming and found the debt to be eighty-five millions. Hon. Mr. BROWN- ~" ¦ tlcman is mistaken in the first figure. seventy-five milliona that I atated. Mr. M. C. CAMERON— I think the hou orable gentleman haa made a raistake. I will show him that his memory is short on this occasion. Hon. Mr. BROWN— Very good. Mr. M. C. CAMERON— You said the debt was $85,000,000, but that there was the Sinking fund and the Municipal Loan in debtedness which together would amount to some fourteen or fifteen millions of dollars, whioh would reduce the amount to about $70,000,000 of direct debt. Hon. Mr. BROWN— (Hear, hear.) Why did you not say tbat at first ? Mr. M. C. CAMERON— WeU, I did not design to catch the Hon. President of the Council in the trap that he had laid fbr him self. (Hear, hear.) We have now found that our debt is not so much as that honorable gentleman led us to suppose it was. The fourteen or fifteen millions did not belong to ' us at all. But the honorable gentleman, since -The honorable gen- It w; 458 he has been so closely connected with those old corruptionists, has discovered that it is only sixty-seven and a half millions. Well, the-Hon. President of the Council has also said, and has acknowledged it too, that he was very much opposed to the Intercolonial Railway, and when the Hon. Attorney Gen eral West made the observation that he learned from a brief paragraph in a paper called the Globe, that Messrs. Sicotte and Howland were about to retum, having ac complished the object uf their mission, viz : to throw overboard the Intercolonial Railway, the Hon. Preaident of the Council remarked, that that was " a very senaible thing — the most sensible thing they ever did." But now the honorable gentleman goea so heartily into this matter, that he will build this vast raU way which it was so sensible to throw over board at that time, and I think be went so far as to say he would build five intercolonial railways rather than that the scheme should fail. Several Hon. MEMBERS— Six; he said six. _ Mr._ M. C. CAMERON— Well, we wUl give him the benefit of one, and yet I have not been able to hear him expreaa in pounds. shillinga an pence the practical benefit there ia to be derived by thia country aa compensa tion for the expenae of building that useleaa thing that it was so senaible to throw over board two yeara ago ; sensible even though tho persons who went home were charged with act ing falsely by the people of the Lower Provinces, and the honorable gentleman commended their throwing it overboard at the risk of our being charged with a breach, of good faith. (Hear, hear.) Now, looking at ibis scheme politi cally, I do not see that we gain any advantage from it. I do oot se 503 wise any of our provinces may experiment, in the way of variation, in framing their constitutions, at least there must everywhere be some attempted approach, in principle, to one or other of the two great divergent systems — the British on the one hand, with its responsible Cabinet — the American, on the other, withiut. That you cannot work the problem on the former of these two plans, I will show presently. For the latter, Mr. Speaker, in the States, it is always carried on with two elective houses, never with one, and with an elective governor ; and all are chosen for terms tbat are not long. It could not be made to work other wise. An appointed governor, holding in dependently, for a term not short, and above all, with only one House, is an experiment as new and unpromising as need be. For a moment, before going further, I revert to the principle on which the Federal Execu tive is to be constituted. We are promised there a cabinet, reaponsible after the Britiah model, and atrangely ani anomaloualy as we have aeen that it will have to be organized, in sections to repreaent our provincea, we must understand that the British principle of its joint reaponaibility ia to be and will be carried out. But it is of the esaence of reaponaible government, that with its re sponsibility such government should have power. No ministry can be answerable for the entire government of a country, unless it has the power to control in some way or other, and to the requisite extent, the course of affairs. If wf are going to build up or Buffer in the country any power too strong for it to deal with, it will ceaae to be reapon aible. It muat be able to overcome oppoai tion, and that in a constitutional manner. Tet, according to thia scheme, indepen dently of and besides all the difficulties our sectionally-organized Federal Cabinet will find in dealing with its sectionally-organized Federal Legislature, it is to have these pro vincial governments also, to embarrasa it. Let these last be what you will, responsible or republican, or some of them the one and some the other, so soon as they begin to act for themselves, so soon you have got powers in action that cannot long move together without clashing, and yet neither of which can overcome the other, unless by practically destroying it, or in other words, by revolu tion. (Hear, hear.) Whether we adopt one system or another, we must create the proper machinery for carrying out whatever system w« adopt. And the plain truth ia, that the Federal system is simply inconsist ent with the first principles that must pre vail in a properly organized Britiah respon sible central government. (Hear, hear.) Indeed, aside even from Federalism, the British system and the republican are antagonist in principle ; neither of them will work mixed up with the other. You must be content with one or other, and muat not commit the folly »f attempting any new, untried, mongrel aystem, or com pound of the two — such as nobody can shew to be capable of being worked at all. And now, Mr. Speaker, let us just fol low out the course of our distinguished fel low-colonist who is trying to govern some one of our provinces under this proposed amalgamation of the two systems. We will suppose him a most admirably fitted person for the post, the fuuctionsof which heis called upon to exercise; but he must necessarily have one or two causes of incapacitation, so to speak, for it. When Her Majesty appoints a governor to come out to Canada, or any other colony, she ia preaumed by every one here to have named aomebody holding a good poaition at home, and somebody against whom no one in tbe colony can have any ground of dislike. He comes with a social rank and status presumedly higher than that ofthe people whom he is here to meet with and govern. Every one is diapoaed to re- cogniae in him the representative of Her Majesty ; and he haa every chance of main taining himself in that pleasant attitude — that of adminiatering hia government to the aatiafaction, ao far as such a thing is pos sible, of all parties. In adopting the views of his constitutional adviaera, he ia not called upon to give up any views which he may himself be thought to entertain. He can express to the people'a repreaentativea the viewa of bis Cabinet, whether they be con servative or reform, or even though they be conservative thia seaaion and reform the next, without any sacrifice of position, no matter what his own political views may have been in the Mother Country. But suppose any of our politicians, whether of this province or of any other in the Con federacy, say Canada, Newfoundland or Nova Scotia, to be assuming this rSle of lieuten ant-governor in any of our provinces. He has this disadvantage to begin with ; he has to that moment been passing through that ordeal of abuse under which every prominent public man in this country must have suf fered before attaining any distinetion what- 504 ever. (Hear, hear.) When a politician, Mr. Speaker, in the United States, who is obnoxious to the ill-will of any large body of the people, is there elected to be Governor of his state, the halo of his election sur rounds him with a something of political glory that throws into shade any stains on his political reputation. But if the governors of the several states of the American Union were appointed from Washington, do you think the people would put up with the results of such appointment, as they now do with those of their own choice; when they might feel that the man was even a deapiaed, diahoneat man, and hia appointment as well an inault aa a wrong ? Who does not know that our chief public men of all partiea have been ao aaaailed, aa to be held at thia moment at a painfully low value by the large section of our people who have differed from their views ? I do not say that they have deserved this fate, but the fact is undeniable that they have met it. Let any one of our dozen or twenty most prominent Canadian politi cians be named Lieutenant-Governor of Up per or of Lower Canada, would not a large and powerful class of the community in eith'er caae to be governed, be very likely to resent tbe nomination as an insult ? Do not tell me that we are entering upon a new era, that all auch thinga are paased away, that we are to have a political millennium, by virtue of thia Confederation? Come what may, we are going to have pretty sharp con tests for place and power in the future as in the past. No matter over what colony ap pointed, or from what colony coming, a lieu tenant-governor will have hard cards to play, and wil) have very much to put up with from the people over whom he is set, on this mere score of his past political exploits. And he will not find it easy, either, to get along without exciting a good deal of iU- feeling, as he goes. He haa been known as a politician, and will be held to be favorable or unfavorable to this or that party in the province he governa. He wiU have stepped into position as a statesman ofthe Confeder ation. No man so placed will be able to blot the record of hia paat, or deny hia participa tion in thia, that and the other proceeding, which hia opponent may chooae to brand aa perhapa next to criminal ; how then will he be able to hold that poaition of equilibrium between political partiea, which, if he ia not to fail utterly in h\sr8le of governor, he muat maintain? He will be auspected, watched, attacked, vilified ; must stick by frienda and puniah enemies ; cannot win respect, esteem and sympathy, aa a stranger might. Nor will he be free from another aource of embarraaa ment. I incline to think there will be a aort of diatinction between the two classes of politicians to grow up under our proposed Confederation. There wiU be those who will aim at and get seats in the Federal Legislature, and who may be denominated the senior or higher class of our politicians. It wUl be from this class that men wiU get into the Federal Executive Council, into high-caate judgeships, lieutenant-governor ships, and other high places of the new system — " the chief seats in the synagogue." The lower seats, with their less tempting prizes, will be left to the junior or lower class of our politicians. But if anything ever so little like responsible government is to be carried out in the provinces, while the lieutenant-governors must be taken from the former of these two classes, the members of any cabinets or quasi-cabinets that they may have (not to say their provincial Pre miers even, very likely), must be taken from the latter class. Do you mean to tell me that a governor chosen from among our politi cians, of what I may call high caste, will put up with much of control from a lot of poli ticians of low caste, sitting at his sham council board or forming his sham legisla ture ? I fancy he will want to have — and will be held by his people to be wanting to have— a vast deal more of power than they will like, or than any ayatem ever so little free can allow of. And meantime, what of the power behind, and nominally above him — the Federal Executive — with its Premier, sections, and what not ? Once named, he is likely to feel every inch a governor ; might perhaps run round to the^Premier and Minis try that had named him, and tell them in effect, though probably not in so many worda : " I am here and you are there. I ahall be careful not to give you sufficient cause for so bold a atep as my diamisaal, but there ia a good deal I can do. I am here for five yeara ; and your tenure of office ia leaa certain." He may be drawn into this atti tude by differences growing up between himself and them. Or, the Federal Cabinet may ao change ita composition or policy as to force such attitude upon him. Why, Mr. Speaker, you may have a Lieutenant- Governor — aay of Lower Canada — in open quarrel with the Premier who named him, or with a auccesaor of auch Premier ; the two, may be, not speaking in the streets ! He haa 505 his seat for five years, and the unfortunate Federal Premier , his supposed master, whose views do not agree with his, may — A MEMBER— Whistle! (Laughter,) Mr. dunkin — Yes, may whistle — may find his Lieutenant-Governor counter-working him in Parliament, in the Provincial Legisla ture, everywhere ; and perhaps, in the en counter, may catch a very ugly fall. (Laugh ter.) Mr. Speaker, let me once again make reference to Canadian history, Juat before the union of tho Canadaa, and after it, the late Lord Sydenham, who waa cer tainly not a fool, thouirht lie would try a political, experiment. I believe he made no secret of its being, to his own mind, an ex periment, nor yet of tbe faot that he did not suppose it would so far succeed as to last long. He was very anxious to introduce into Canada a municipal system. Well, he tried first to get such a syatem embodied in the Union Act ; but he failed in that. He afterwarda got hia enactment pasaed aa he wiahed, for Lower Canada, by the Special Council, and for Upper Canada by the Ca nadian Parliament at ita firat aeaaion. That system had in it certain featurea of this acheme now propoaed for our Confederation. Each municipal district waa to havo ita warden appointed by the Governor General, and to have ite eleetcl diatrict council, or little legialature of on e chamber. The powera of that little legialature, or large municipal body, were well atated. There waa no mia- take aa to juat how far it could go. The power of diaallowing .by-laws paaaed by it, and alao that of nominating the warden, were carefully reaerved to Government. And, mind you, my Lord Sydenham did not make the blunder of letting hia wardens hold otherwise than during pleasure. He kept in his own haods aU needed control over them; and, by the way, he kept, too, wbat was most material, the power of dis solving any refractory council, in the hands of Government. The whole thing waa ricely arranged, and waa meant to work, and Lord Sydlnham probably thought it would work for aome few yeara, and that then the dia tricta would outgrow the ayatem, and elect their own wardena and paaa their by-lawa freely. But, Mr. Speaker, the plan never did work at all, neither in Lower nor in Upper Canada; and the firat thing done by the next Parliament waa to sweep it all away — nominated wardens and power of disallowing by-laws together. Everybody saw and felt that it was a 65 real power and not a sham, tbat waa ao reserved to Government. And so it will bo in this case. Your Lieutenant-Governor will be felt to have a real power, not a sham one. What your petty districts would not put up with five and twenty years ago, your provinces will not put up with now. Is a larger iUustration wanted ? One comes readily to hand. The Imperial Government used once to try the experiment of sending out governors to colonies having representative institutions, without instructing them to pay due deference to those institutions, and it led to a most la mentable failure. (Hcnr, hear.) Are we going to try to work, in all these provinces, a worse system than that which, when worked from the Colonial Office at bome, resulted in what Lord Dorham well called " constituted anarchy?" If we are, how long may we count on putting off the confiict of authority that shall end in a complete crash of the en tire fabric ? (Hear, hear.) But, Mr. Speaker, I have not come to the crowning difficulties of this case, even yet. Not at all. Between the states of the United States, aa I have al ready atated, while there ia an essential iden tity of conatitution, there ia at the aame time a carefully diatinot separation of powera and functiona. I do not say that the dividing line is drawn exactly whore it should be, but that there is a distinct dividing line, no one can gainsay. But how do we atand here, Mr. Speaker, aa to the attributea of our own provincial legialaturea and government--, on the one band, and those of the Federal power on the other ? Do we follow American ex ample, and give so much to the union and the rest to tho provincea ; or so much to them, and the reat to it ? Either rule would be plain ; but thia plan followa neither. It sira ply gives us a sort of special liat for each ; making much common to both, and aa to much more, not shewing what belongs to either. I cannot go now — it is impoaaible for me at this hour of the night to go — into de tail on thia head. I can give no more than aome few specimens ; and I take first the three subjects of the fiaheriea, agriculture, and im migration. Theae three aubjecta are equally aaaigned to the General Legishiture on the one hand, and the Provincial Legislature on the other. It ia provided by the 45th reaolution, that in all such cases, wherever any statutes of the general and local parliaments clash, those of the General Parliament shall over ride those of the local. So that in tbese matters of the fisheries, agriculture and immigration, either the local legislatures must not legislate at aU, or if they do 506 the General Legislature may at any time undo anything they may have done. One can eaaily foresee any amount of claahing of authority in such cases. Fishery regula tions of all sorts — bounties perhaps ; the thouaand questions affecting agriculture. Or to take just one that suggesta itaelf as to im migration ; one province wishes, perhapa, to encourage immigration of a certain kind, aay, for instance, from the continent of Eu rope. It ia a legitimate wiah ; but the Fed eral Legislature may, perhaps, in the varying shifts of public opinion, adopt a different policy, and reverse all that the province may have done. To what end give powers to the local parliamenta which may thus bo taken away at any moment by the Federal Legialature ? (Hear, bear.) But, Mr. Speak er, there are a hundred other caaea as to wbich I could satisfy the House, had I time for doing so, that more or less of thia confu aion ariaea. Take the aubject of marriage and divorce for one — a subject on which there is a great deal of local prejudice and feeling, and into whicb even religious coh viction s largely enter. That matter is given to the General Legislature. But on the other hand the larger matter, civil rights — of whioh this of marriage and divorce, from one point of view, forms a mere part — ia given to the lo cal legialaturea. I tum to another inatter, hap hazard — the aubjecta of railway legislation, of railway incorporation, and of railway amalga mation. What Legialature has power in theae mattera under tbia scheme ? I am not sure that there are not here aa nice a lot of pretty littlo questiona as one would desire to see in a aiim- mer'a day. And I am not alone in the matter of tbia oriticiam. Her Majesty'a Colonial Secre tary expreases an opinion, rather diplomati cally, it is true, but stiU an opinion on this point ; and what does the Colonial Secretary say ?— The point of principal importance to the prac tical well--workiiig of the scbeme. is the accurate determination of the limits between the authority of the central and that of the local legislatures in their relation to each other. It has not been possible to exclude from the resolutions some provisions which iippcar to he less consistent than might, peihap.«, have been dcircd wilh tho sim plicity of ihe svstem. Bnt, upo;i the whole, it appears to Her Majesty's Government that pre cautions have been taken which are obviously in tended — ["intended;" he doea not say, "calcu lated"] — which are obviously intended to secure to the Central Government the means of effective artion throughout the several provinces, and to guard against those evils which raust inevitably aiiso if any doubt were permitted to exist as to the respective limits of central and local authority. It is perfectly plain from this that Her Ma jesty's Government could see that whatever may have been the intention, there has been a good deal of short-coming between it and tbe execution. (Hear, hear.) A thing is not done by being merely intended. I wiU take now a criticism on the same point from the London Times. In an article most eulogistic of theso resolutions on the whole, the writer in the London Times says — " But the most important clause in the whole resolutions, and unfortunately by no means the easiest to underatand, ia the one which definoa the powera of the Central Federal Legialature." He then quotea the words of the resolutions, and goea on to aay : — It is exceedingly difBcult to construe these pro visions. First, general poweis of legislation aro given in the widest terras to the General Parlia ment ; then a power ia given especi.ally to make lawa on Ihirty-sevcn subjecte, one of thoae being all matters of a general character not exclusively reserved to the local legislatures. Nothing is exclusively reserved to the local legislatures, and itwould seem, therefore, that the effect of this clause is to cut the power of central legislation down to n-iatters of a general character — a most vague and unsatisfactory definition, and one sure, if It be retained, to produce conflict and con fusion. In the samo way, what are matters of a private and local nature not a.ssigned to the Gen eral Parliament? "We have failed to discover any matters of a private and local nature which are so assigned, aud therefore the power will be limited by the words "private" and "local," so that the effjct of these clauses will be th.at, be yond the subjects attributed to each, tlis Central Legislature will have jurisdiction over geneial matters, -whatever they are, and the Local Legisla ture over local matters, whatever they are ; while it is iu the highest degree doubtful what the courts would consider general aud what local, and whether the Central Legislature has any concurrent juris diction over private and local matters or no'. The writer in the Times goes on to aay — and I have great respect for the opiniona of these writers when thoy criticise what tbey under- staiiLl, t,hou;.;li I bavo none whatever for them when they take it upon theraaelves to tell us what wc know a good deal better than they : — These inaccuracies are probably the result ofa succession of compromises, and w-e can do no better seivice to the federative movement than by thus early pointing them out. The resolu tions ask forthe co-operation of the Local and jiupevial Piiili.iments for the purpose of gi\iuo- them effect, and v,e h-ive no douht that before thoy assurae tho form of law thpyivili have under 50-: gone consideration and scrutiny fully commensu- late to their importance. I rather think this writer had little idea of what we were to be asked to do ! He little thought that there was not a word of alter ation to be allowed ; tbat these resolutions were to bo laid before Parliament, and tbat Parliament would be required to swallow them at once, defects and aU. (Hear, hear.) Well, Sir. Speaker, I have stated what, in diplomatic phrase, are the views of Her Ma jesty's Government, and I have also read tho.se of the leading journal ; and now I desiro to quote a few expressions from tho last num ber of the Edinburgh Review. The Edinburgh Review is about as good an authority as can be cited on a queation of thia kind, for its ar ticles are never lightly written. Hon. J. S. MACDONALD— It is the organ of the Liberal- Whig party in Great Britain. Mr. DUNKIN — Certainly, it is a most important and influential publication ; and there are a few words that I deaire to quote from an article it containa on this subject. The article is in the last or January number of the Review, and purports to be in commen dation of this scheme. After giving the words of the resolutions themselves on the subject, and especially their residuary legacy, if I may so call it, to the General Legislature, of all mat ters of a general character not specially and exclusively reserved for the local parliaments, this probably not undistinguished writer remarks — "Obviously very loosely expressed ; for what are matters of a general character, and who ia to decide whether a matter ia of a general character or not ? * * We ahould prefer to the foregoing enumeration of the powera of the Federal Parliament, a simple declaration that all powers are given to it except thoae expreaaly reaerved to the aeveral membera of the Confederation." And in another part of the same article, reverting to the same aubject, we have theae worda — " And although the diatinction attempted to be drawn between general and local mattera ia in some re.-pccts scarcely traceable in the draft minutes of the Conference " — Yes, sir, so thia writer calls them, their looseness of expression evidently leading him to take them for some thing far short of the solemnly drawn treaty they are now set up for, — though this dis tinction, says he, is hardly traceable in these draft minutes, "the object they had in view is sufficiently clear and intelligible." Perhaps so ; or perhaps that object was little more than to give people to understand that some how or other the General Govemment and Parliament were to have great power, and the provincial governments and parliaments none too much. Any way, the idea is very like that of the Colonial Secretary's despatch, and the two run rather to the tune of the left- handed compliment paid Slender, '¦ I think my cousin meant -icell." Hon. j. S. MACDONALD— Quote the concluding p.irt of tho article. Mu. DUNKIN— I shaU do so before I sit down, if my strength allows me to com plete my argument. I paas nov? to another matter, aa to whioh further capacities for con flict arc very well laid out -lor us. In tlie framing of the United Statea Constitution they did not forget to provide for a district of Columbia, for a territory within which the pov.-or of Congress and the General Govern raent waa to be perfectly and unmistakably supreme ibr all purpoaea. And they did not forget to declare that the powers, legislative and otherwiae, of the Federal authority, were to be complete over all the vaat territoriea belonging to the nation, and over aU ita smtilier .properties, such aa forta, arsenals, dockyards and the like. We have nothing of the kind here ; and, at leaat aa regards the seat of Government, this is not a mere forget. We find it stated that " The seat of Government of the Federated Provin ces shall be Ottawa, subject to the royal prerogative." It is distinctly laid down as a part of our system that the royal prerogative, the right to chnuge the seat of the Federal Government at wiU, is to be maintained. But I venture to say that the maintaining of that right is siraply inconsistent wilh tbe practical working out of a Federal system. And this is a matter involving a good deal of anomaly, as honorable gentlemen will see when they be gin to think of it. The Govemor General or Viceroy, the all but king of thia Confederacy, with hia all but Imperial Government, and all but Imperial Legialature, conatituted no mat ter how, reaident within the territorial juria dictiou of a aubordio ate province ! The po lice of the Federal capital, not Federal but provincial ! That thing won't do. 'The framera of the Constitution of the Uuited States knew it would not do, and therefore they were par ticular to give power to their General Govern ment to acquire and hold and control and le gislate for, in all reapecta, as they liked, a ter ritory within which they could reign and rule and have no subordinate authority over them. We have not got to Ottawa yet, but suppose the seat of Govemment were in Ottawa — per haps we may yet get it there — it might so 508 happen that some Honorable Premier of the Federal Administration may not be on speaking terms with the Lieutenant-Governor of Upper Canada ; or at least, there may be between them fhe most decided, thorough, unmis takably proclaimed antagonism of views and feeling. It ia easy to iraagine that a Premier in that position, and a Lieutenant Governor in fh,at position, could between them make a Viceroy very uncomfo-talile ; and that the re ault might be the bringing up of a great many tickliah queations for adjudication by the various authorities. It is clear there ia a de fect here, which might lead to plenty of trouble. But it ia aaid — " Oh ! there won't be a,ny trouble ; men are in the main aensible, and won't try to make troubl.\" Well, air, if thia ia so, if there is thia general dispoaition to be senaible, and make thinga work well, I just want to know how we come to have had lour criaea in two yeara ? (Hear, hear.) There ia another matter, intimately con nected with thia, to -which alao I muat paaa on. I aaid a little while ago, that the United Statea syatem was one of ex ceeding skill as regards the constitution of the judiciary. De Tooqueville, and every other writer who haa treated of the United States, haa awarded it this praise ; and they are right. Each atate has ita own judiciary ; and the United Statea have theira ; and the func tions of the two are most carefully laid down, so that no serious trouble haa ever arisen from their clashing. The judiciary of the United Statea ia undoubtedly the moat conser vative and atrongeat bulwark of their whole aystem. (Hear, hear.) What then are we going to do on this head ? Juat aa we have forgotten all about difficultiea where the aeat of government ia concerned, ao here. We are not quite aure whether we arc going to have any distinctively federal judiciary or not. There is a, power given to have one — there may be one ; but wo are expreaaly told that perhapa there will not be. But what are we told on the other hand ? Oh, there ia no doubt whatever, according to the re solutions laid before us — no doubt what ever — that whether we have a Federal judi ciary or not, the provincial judiciaries are to be a sort of joint institutions. And a very curious kind of co-partnership the Federal Government and the provincial governments — the Federal Legislature and tbe provincial legislaturea — are thus to liave in the judioi.il institutions of the country, generally. All the courts, judges, and other judicial officera of the provinces are to be, for all manner of federal purposes, servants of the Federal Government. There is an old saying, " No man can serve two masters." But aU these unfortunate courts, and all their officers, and specially all tbeir judges, must serve two mas ters, whether they can or not. All the Su perior Court judges — and, in Upper Canada, the judges of the County Courts — are to be named and paid by the Federal authority, and ,'ire only to be removable by the Federal au thority, on a joint address of tho two Houses of the Federal Parliament. But, on the other hand, the provinces are to constitute the courts — (hear, hear) — are to say what their functions shall be — what the number of tbe judgea — how they are to perform their func tiona — are to give them more work or leaa — to make their work pleaaant or diaagreeable, high work or dirty work, aa they like. (Hear, hear.) In thia way they can wrong a judge juat as much aa they please ; the only check on them being the power of the Federal Gov ernment to diaallow their legislation. The Federal Government, foraooth, names the judgea, and pays them, and alone can remove them. Does that take away the power from the local parliaments and governments, the power to change the constitution of the court, to change it in. the way most distasteful to those judges, to legislate away the court alto gether, to legialate down ita functions in auch a manner as may drive the judge to resign ? And wo are told there will be no clashing ! (Hear.) I have no doubt the Hon. Attorney General Eaat thinka he could manage courta on thia aystem ; could have one authority constituting the courts and another naming and removing the judges, and have the systera work harmonioualy. He may think so. I do not. I am aatiafied if ever the acheme ia tried, it will be found that it wiU not work. Human nature ia human nature ; and here is a firat-rate lot of mattera to quarrel over, and to quarrel over aeriously. Why, there ia even a special refinement of confusion as to crimi nal matters. Criminal procedure is to be federal ; civil procedure, provincial ; crimi nal legislation, proper, is to be federal ; but with a most uncertain quantity of wb-at one may call legislation about penalties, provin cial ; civil rights, in the main, provincial ; but with no one can tell how much of federal interference and over-ruling, and aU with courts provincial in constitution, but whose judges hold by federal tenure and under f'ederal pay. I pity the poor man' who ia at once a criminal judge and a civil judge. Be tween the clashing of his masters and the clash- 509 ing of his book authorities, he had better mind what he is about, with the painful doubt rising at every turn whether provincial legislation may not be overridden by federal legislation. His province may well have legislated on what it holds a local matter, whUe the Federal Par liament may have legislated on it, thinking it a federal matter. Anywhere there may well be some bit of federal legislation contradict ing something in A local statute. And do our resolutions say that the federal statute shall always override the local statute ? No, only in cases where there is concurrent jurisdic tion. And yet our judge who is to decide these nice questions is paid by one power and re movable by that power, and may have his func tiona taken away and be peraecuted to the death by the other. He will have a bad time of it. Well, Mr. Speaker, I have ao far been deal ing with mattera, nearly all of which may be said to be general to every part of this great Confederacy ; but now I must ask the atten tion of the House for a few moments, to some sources of misunderstanding which may more particularly make trouble, unless human na^ ture ceases to be human nature within this Canada of ours. There are in Canada, and especially in Lower Canada, the two differences of language and faith ; and there is no doubt that the real reasons which have rendered, or are supposed to have rendered necesaary thia plan of a sort of Federal Government, are referable to thia fact. Thia machinery ia deviaed, on purpoae to meet a poaaible or pro bable clashing of racea and creeda in Canada, and particularly in Lower Canada. Now, in the United States, when their conatitutional system was adopted, the framers of it must have foreseen, of course, tbat controversy would arise on the subjects of state rights and slavery. There was a jealousy be tween the small states and tbe large, and the commencement of a dissent between the Northern and tbe Southem States of the re public. There was undoubtedly a foresha dowing of trouble on the subject of slavery, though, by the way, slavery was to all ap pearance dying out rapidly in the Northern States, not so rapidly in the Southern. How, then, did the framers of that Constitution un dertake to deal with these foreseen troubles, these questions of state rights and slavery ? Sir, they did all they possibly could to keep both out of sight — to bury them — that they might not rise up in the future to give trou ble. It is true that in so doing they but buried the dragon's teeth, and that these, aU buried as they were, have yet sinee sprung up, armed men ; but so far as they could, they kept them down, kept them from growing, prevented recognition of them at that time and for long- after. Well, how are we going to carry out this scheme of ours ? Are we burying, or are we of set choice sowing, our dragon's teeth ? Are we trying to keep our difficulties out of the way, to bury them out of sight, that we may smooth our way for the future lessening of them ? I think not. On the contrary, we are getting ourselves as deliberately aa -we well can to keep up the distinctions and thedif- crences which exiat among ua, to hold them conatantly in everybody'a sight — in the hope, I auppoae, that while everybody is looking at them intently, aomehow or other no one may aee them at all. (Laughter.) In the United Statea, be it remembered, they atarted with their atates sovereign and independent. From that they went into their system of confed eration, whioh was a great improvement ; and from that they went on into their present federal-national conatitution. At each atep they were moving to limit state rights, and alao, indirectly, the extent and infiuence of alavery. It ia true they did not altogether aucceed in thia policy, but their want of suc cesa has been mainly owing to circumstancea over which they could exercise no control. We in Canada, for the laat twenty-five yeara, have been legialatively united, and we have worked that union in a federal apirit. We complain that, as a result of this, the dis tinctions which exist among us have become so prominent — the truth being, that it ia rather thia proposed change which ia auddenly bringing them into atartling prominence — we have worked that union, however, I say, in a fdderal spirit, and it is said to have produced or aggravated a certain state of feud amongst us ; and now, for the purpose of perpetuating this state of feud, we are going to effect a professedly Federal union which ia even expreasly recommended to ua, or to many of us, as meant ancl calculated to be so worked as to amount, fbr all practical purpoaea, to diaunion. Under it Lower Canada haa all sorts of special exceptions made, as the phrase runs, in her favor. The Legislative Council is to be named in a peculiar manner, so far aa ita membera from Lower Canada are concerned. The other proviuces may have tboir lawa made uniform, but an exception in thia reapect ia made for Lower Canada, and aa if to make it apparent that Lower Canada ia never to be like the reat ofthe Confederation, it is carefully provided that the General Parliament may make 510 uniform the laws of the other provincea only — that is to say, provided tbose pro vinces consent to it, but by inference it can not extend this uniformity to Lower Canada, not even if she should wish it. Supposing, even, that the other provio'^es were to desire to adopt our Lower Canadian system, accord ing to the letter of tbis Constitution, one would say they cannot do it. They may become uniform among themselves, but Lower Canada,-cveu though her people were to wish it, must not be uniform with them. Again, as to education, exceptions of sorae sort are to be made in Lower Canada, and indeed in Upper Canada too, though no one can tell to wbat extent these exceptions are or are not to be carried. Thus, in one way and another. Lower Canada ia to be placed on a separate and distinct footing from the other provinces, so tliat her interesta and inatitutiona may not be meddled with. I say thia syatem, aa a whole, and theae pecuiiaritiea and exceptiona in regard to Lower Canada, aro adopted with a special view to remedy our Canadian difficul ties of race and creed. But, sir, thia ia no way at all of avoiding or lessening trouble from this cauae. Itia idle to pretend that by thia system collision is going to be prevented. Under the legislative union of the Canadas, even worked as it has been, the tendency of the minorities in Upper and Lower Canada, reapectively, haa been towarda the mainten ance of the union — towards the avoidance of all intemperate language and prejudiced feelings — to-n'arda the pulling down of the feuda that before divided them and the reapective majoritiea. And the reault haa been, that while just before the union the feud between tbe races in Lower Canada was at ita higheat and bittereat point, it haa since then all but diaappeared. The com plaint of Upper Canadian politioiana has been that they eould not set the Britiah aud French racea in Lower Canada by the ears, that they could not get the former, either aa British or as .Pr.itestanta, to join with thera in a crusade againat the Lower Canadian majority. Mr. a. MACKENZIE— Who made that complaint ? Mil, DUNKIN— I do rot say tbat it haa been aaid in worda, but it ha.a been in apirit. Mr. a. MACK-EiNZIE— No, no. (Hear, he.-ir.) iMr. DUNKIN — Yea; the complaint haa been made, perhaps not in that particular form, but certainly in that spirit. The British of Lower Canada havo been again and again told they were worse than tiieir French neighbois, for not casting in their lot with the people of Upper Canada. (Hear, hear.) Well, Mr. Speaker, undoubtedly, before the union. Lower Canada, as I have said, was the place where the war of races was at its height; and that w.ir of racea did not nearly ceaae for a number uf yeais after. But the atrife did very gradually h-s^en, aud a bettor and more friendly feeling haa for some time prevailed, in both camps. Indeed, there has been -a more toltraot state of fool ing in both camps, than in any other community so divided as to race and creed, that I know of. But the moment you teil Lower Canada that ' the large-simoding powers of your General Governmeut are going to be handed over to a British- American majority, decidedly not of tiie race and faith of her majority, that moment you wake up the old jealousies and hoatility in their atrongest form. By tho very , proviaiona you talk of for the piotection of the non-French and non-Catholic interests, you unfortunately countenance tho idea that the French are going to bo more unfair than I believe tbey wiah to be. For that matter, what elae can they well be ? They will finei themselves a minority in tho General Lci;is- lature, and their power in the General Government will depend upon their power within their own province and over their provincial delegations in the Federal Parlia ment. They will thua be compelled to bo practically aggressive, to secure and retain that power. They may not, perhaps, wish to be ; they may not, perhapa, be aggresaivc in the worst aense of the term. — I do not aay that they certainly will be ; but whether they are or not, there will certainly be in this ayatem the very atrongest tendeuciea to make them practically aggressive upou the rights ofthe minority in language and faith, and at the same tirae to make tho minority most eu,-^pioiou8 and resentful of aggression. The aamo sort of alienation, aa between the two faitha, will be going on in Uf per Canada. Note of warning ia already given by this acheme, to both partiea, that they prepare for fight; and the indicationa, I regret to say, are tbat such note of warning ianot to be given in vain. (Hear, hear.) The prejudices of the two campa are once more atirred to their deptha ; and if this scheme goes into operation, they will separate more 511 and more widely, and finally break out into open war, unless, indeed, it shall work very differently from what any one can now imagine. If provincial independence is to be crushed down by a General Government carelesa of local majoritiea, then you will have thia war. Or, if on the other hand, the policy ofthe Federal Executive should bo to givo effect to the aggregate will of the several local mnjovities, at whatever sacrifice of principle, still then you will have this war. The local minorities — threateUed witb elimination, in their alarm and jealousy, will be simply desperate, ready for any out break of discontent at any moment. Take a practical case. Suppose the rule adopted, of not having an Executive Council inconve niently largo. Lower Canada, aa we have aeen, can then only have three members of it; aud if all these three are French-Cana dians — as they almost must be, because the I'rench cannot put up with less than three out of twelve — how will not the Iriah Catho lica and the Britiah Proteatanta feel them selves aggrieved ? You cannot help it. Thoy muat in that caae feol deeply aggrieved, and 80 feeling, they will cauae troublea. The Iriah Catholica will be told, 1 auppoae, " Ch, you will have an Iriah Catholic member of tho Government to look to from Newfound- lanJ ;" and if ao, they will have to guide themselves by aome sort of Irish-Catholio Newfmndland rule of policy, and not by any rule ever so little savoring of a regard for Ijrgcr or higher principle. The Britiah Proteatanta, in their turn, will be told : "You lia'vc a majority of your own tongue and faitli from Upper Cauada aud the Lower Provinces ; you rauat be content with that, aod look to their membera of the Government for such care as you may need in tho matter of your affairs." " Oh, we raust, muat we ?" will be the anawer; " tlien we will .-¦.qaare our conduct, not by any rule for J^iiti.sli America or even Lower Canada, but )jy the ahifting exigenciea of preju- iliee or paaaion, whatever they may be, in I 'pper Oaua la and your Lower Provinces." (llcdr, hoar.) Those discontented olemouts in Lower Canada, depend upon it, will ci-cjte no small confusion ; and among thoae thus driven into making trouble, tbero will be uot a few whose preferences will even be American, and who will appeal to outside influences for protection. Such will be tbe legitimate effect of this ayatem ; and if any ouo tdla me that it will be conducive to the peace and good government of this country, I say he prophecies in a way that I cannot understand. Thank God, Mr. Speaker, I do not need, as I stand here, to defend my self from any charge of bigotry as against any sect or party. There was a time in Ca nada when it was raost difficult for any person who spoke my tongue to stand up and say that the French-Canadians ought not to be politically exterminated from the face of the earth. I stood out steadfastly against that doctrine theu. I remember well the painful events of that sad tixe. I foresee but too distinctly the fearful probability there is of that time coming again, through the adoption of these reso lutions. And I do not shrink from the danger of being misunderstood or misrepre sented, when I now stand up here and warn the country of this danger. If trouble of this sort ever arises, it is one that will ex tend very rapidly over the whole Confederacy. In all parts of it, in every province, there are minorities that will ba acted upon by that kind of thing. In the Lower Provinces, and in Newfoundland, thit-ig-; are but too ripe for the outburst of hostilities of this description. Talk, indeed, in such a atate of thinga, of your founding here by this meana " a new nationality " — of your creating such a thing— "Of your whole people here rallying round ita new Governmeot at 0tta-\va. Blr. Speaker, ia such a thing possible ? We have a large class whose national feelings tarn towards London, whose very heart is there ; another large class whose sympathies centre here at Quebec, or in a sentimental way may have some reference to Paris ; an other large class whose memories are of the Emerald Isle; and yet another whose com- parisona are rather with Washington ; but have we any claaa of people who are attached, or whoae feelinga are going to be directed with any earnestneaa, to the city of Ottawa, the centre of the new nationality that is to be created ? In the times to come, when men shall begin to feel strongly OQ those questions that appeal to national preferences, prejudices and passions, all talk of your new nationality will aound but atrangely. Some other older nationality will then be found to hold the first place in moat people'a hearta. (Hear, hear.) Mr. Speaker, it ia only right tbat I ahould atate to the Houae that I have uot reached within a long diatance of the point which I had hoped to reach before aitting down ; but 512 I feel compelled to ask the indulgence of the Houae, from my atrength being insuffi cient to bear me through. (Cheers.) The debate waa then adjourned, Mr. Dunkin having the floor again for to morrow. LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Tuesday, February 28, 1865. Hon. Mr. CAMPBELL— Before the Houae risea, I deaire to aubmit a atatement of tbe revenue of the Ialand of Prince Ed ward, which has come into my handa since the cloae of the debate on the propoaed union of Canada and the Lower Provioces. The hon. member for Niagara aeemed to take exception to wbat I said in relation to that particular point, and I am therefore happy to be able to satisfy the hon. member that what I then stated ia fully suatained by the authentic return now before me. I hold in my hand a " Report of the Comptroller of Cuatoms and Sundry Statistica " of that colony for the year 1863, which ahowa that the total revenue of the ialand for tbat year waa £61,688 lla. 4d., ialand currency, equal to £41,125 16a. 3d., sterling, an increase over the previoua year of nearly 35 per cent. The hon. member seemed to think it impoa sible that auch a aum aa I had atated sbould have been raiaed, and auggeated that a great part must have come from local sources. Well, the amount derived from excise and duties on imports for 1863 was £46,057 6a. 7d,, island currency, from the poat office £1,590, and from cuatom houae office feea, £71 98. 9d, ; together £47,718 16a. 4d., island currency, or about £32,000, sterling, equal to $156,000 or thereabouts. There are a good many other items of revenue, but I have selected theae three, aa those certain to come into the treasury of the General Governraent, and there may be others. But it will be aeen that these alone would make up the aum I gave as the revenue of the island, which would be available for the general purposes ofthe Confederation. Hon. Mr. CURPJE — I did not question the correctness of the figures of the Honor able Commiaaioner of Crown Lands, but I felt and expreaaed aome aurprise at the sum, whicb, when compared with former years, exhibited, as I thought, an almost incredible increase. Will the Honorable Commissioner state what proportion of these imports was foreign, and what came from the provinces it is proposed to unite, as after the union no revenue would of course be derived from the latter ? Hon. Mr. CAMPBELL— There are ta bles shewing the imports and exports, and the imports from the following places were in 1863 :— United Kingdom £122,880 5 6J Nova Scotia 66,890 11 5i New Brunswick 19,975 3 11 Newfoundland 1,865 15 3 Bermuda and 'West Indies, .. . 3,969 5 7 Saint Pierre 292 U 3 Canada 6,152 8 3 Magdalene 302 3 0 United States 71,103 0 8 Total, sterUng £293,431 4 11 Taking from the above the importe from Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, Newfound land and Canada, amounting to £94,883 18s. lOd., the balance of nearly £200,000 was all foreign, and auch as would pay duty to the General Government. The exporte were £209,472 98, 6d, to whieh waa to be added the value of 24,991 tons of shipping built in the island, which at £5 sterling per ton, was equal to £124,955, and raised the credit aide of the aheet to £334,427 9a. 6d,, against £293,431 4s lid to the debit aide, thua shewing a balance in favor of the colony in 1863 of £40,996 4s. 7d. (Hear, hear.) [The honorable member here handed the report to the Hon. Mr. Currie, who, after having examined it, aeemed to concur in the atatement of the Hou. Commiaaioner of Crown Landa.J LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY. Tuesday, February 28, 1865, Mr. dunkin, continuing hia speech from yesterday, said — Mr. Speaker, when the kindness of the Houae permitted me to reaume my seat laat evening, I waa comparing the conatitutional ayatem of the proposed Confederacy with the Constitution ofthe Unit ed States primarily, and with that of Great Dritain secondarily. I had gone over several leading points of compariaon ; and it will be in the recollection of the House, no doubt. 51S that I had compared the composition of our proposed House of Commons with that of the House of Representatives of the United States ; and I endeavored to shew, and I think I had shewn, that we were departing altogether from the principles upon which the British House of Commons is constituted, and taking up mal dpropos, and unfor tunately, the least inviting features of the composition of the American House of Representatives. It is proposed to adopt here a plan which bas a direct tendency to place on the floor of our House of Commons a number of provincial delegations, and not a number ot independent members of parlia ment. The tendency is therefore towards a system antagonistic to, and inconsistent with, those principles on which the British Constitution reposes. With provincial delegations, rather than membera of parlia ment, on the floor of the Federal Legislature, we are not likely to have that politioal longevity, whether of men or parties, with out which the British ayatem of government can hardly exist. Turning then to the Legislative Council, and comparing its constitution with that of the Senate of the United States — the principles governing the former are diametrically oppoaite to thuae on which the latter ia founded. The Seuate of the United Statea forms an excellent federal check upon the Houae of Repreaent- atives, partly owing to the way in which it ia conatituted, and partly on account of the powera given to it, and which are not pro poaed to be given to our Legislative Council. All that can be said of it is, that it is pro posed to be constituted upon almost the worst principles that could have been adopt ed. It seems as if it were so constituted for the mere purpoae of leading to a dead-lock. 'The membera of it are not to represent our provinces at all, but are to be named by the Federal power itself, for life, and in numbers to constitute a pretty numerous body, but without any of the peculiar functions wisely assigned to the Senate of the United States. In fact, the federal battle that must be fought will have to be fought iu the House of Commons and in the Executive CouncU, very much more than in the Legislative Council. Turning then to the Executive Council, I had ahown that it is a necesaary consequence of the proposed system, that we are to have not merely a House of Com mons cut up into aections, but also an Exe cutive Council cut up in the same unfortu nate way. You can get nothing else in the 66 nature of a real federal check. Your federal problem will have to be worked out around the table of the Executive Council. But this principle, which muat enter into the formation of the Executive Council, is clear ly inconsiatent with the principle of the Britiah Conatitation, which holda the whole Cabinet jointly reaponaible for every aet of the Government. In our present union of the Canadas, we have latterly gone upon the plan of having almost two ministries. The plan urged upon our acceptance purposes the experiment of six or more sections in the Executive Council, instead of the two that we have found one too many Among the difficulties that will grow out of that plan is this, the abaolute necessity of either having an Executive Council that will be ridi culously too numerous, or else one that will represent the different provinces in sections entirely too small. From thia compariaon of these thiee leading features, I had paased on to conaider the relationa of the Federal Government with the several provincea, comparing them with the relationa subsist ing between the United Statea Government and the govemmenta of the several atatea of the American Union. The several statea oi the neighboring republio commenced their exiatence aa atates with all their conatitu tiona conatruoted on the aame general plan aa that of the United States, aud in fact the same republican principles underlie all their governmental institutiona, municipal, state and federal. But it ia here propoaed, that while we are to atart with a ayatem of gen eral government, part Britiah, part republi can, part neither, it ia to bo an open quea tion, left to the decision of each aeparate province, what kind of local conatitution is to be constructed for itaelf. Each province must, of courae, have an elective chamber, but aa to a aecond chamber, that is to be as each local legislature may aee fit. Some, probably, will have it elective, while others may dispen e with it entirely. Then, looking to the appointment of the lieutenant-gov- ernora, and the tenure by which they are to hold office, it becomea about as clear as day that you cannot carry on responsible government in the provinces, but must have in them all a system that is neither British nor repub lican, and that, I believe, will be found to be totally unworkable. Turning to the assignment of powers to the Federal Govern ment on the one hand, and the local or provincial governments on the other, we meet again with the unhappy contrast be- 514 tween the wisdom diaplayed on that point in the Conatitution of tlie United Statea, and the lack of wisdom in the arrangement proposed for adoption hero. There ia, iu the United States' ayatem, a clear aud dis tinct line drawn between the functiona of the general and atate govemmenta. Some may not like the idea of state aovereignty, and many may wiah that more power had been given to the General Governmeut. But thia much is plain, that it ia not propoaed to allow anything approaching- to state sove reignty here. We have not even an intelli gible atatement aa to what powera are to be exercised by the general, and what by the local legialaturea and govemmenta. Several aubjecta are apecifically given to both; many otheia are confuaedly left in doubt between them ; and there ia the atrange and anomaloua proviaion that not only can the General Government disallow the acts of the provin cial legislaturea, and control and hamper and fetter provincial action in more ways than one, but that wherever any federal legislation contr,-;venes or in any way clashes with pro vincial legislation, aa to any matter at aU common between them, such federal legis lation shall override it, and take its place. It is not too much to say that a continuance of such a system for any length of time without serious clashing is abaolutely im poaaible. Thia ia in effect so declared in the despatch of Her Majeaty'a Colonial Secretary, and it is clearly pointed out in the London Times and in the Edinburgh Review. It seems as if our atateamen had aought to multiply points of coUisicn at every turn. Then as to the non proviaion of a permanent seat of goveroment, aud the arrangements contemplated forthe judiciary, we find still more ot the aame aort of thing; and aa to the extraordinary painathatseem tohaveb3en taken to throw up a great wall or hedge round thoae inatitutiona of Lower Canada which of late have been giving us no trouble to speak of — aa to the extraordinary pains, I aay, that seem to have been taken to put a wall around those institutions, and to give every posaible guarantee about them on this side aud on that ; why, this very machinery, prov ided forthe mere purpoae of inducing people to agree to the acheme, who would not other wise countenance it, is calculated, at no very diatant day, to cauae the cry to reaound throughout the land — '' To your teota, 0, larael !'* (Hear, hear.) I had reached thia point of my argument, when I was com pelled to throw myself on the indulgence of the Houae. There is just one consideration connected with these matters to which I have been alluding, that I wish to revert to in few words, because I believe it escaped me, in part at least, last night. A marked difference between the history of the United States just before they framed their consti tution, and our late history, is this : tUe adoption of the Constitution of the United States followed immediately upon their suc cessful war of independence. The men who adopted it had just gone shoulder to shoulder through the severest trial that could have been given to their patience and other higher qualities. Their entire com munities had been, you may say, united as one man, in the great struggle through which they bad passed, and were then equally united in their hopes as to the grand results which their new system was to bring forth. They had tried the system of mere confederation, and were agreed that it was inadequate to meet the wants of their situation. 'They were all trying to remove the evils that they felt and apprehended from it, and to build up a great nationality that should endure in the future. That was the position they occupied. Ours is some thing very different indeed. We have not gone through an ordeal such as that through which they had so proudly passed. On the contrary, we have ended, temporarily ended at any rate, a series of struggles it is true, but struggles of a very different kind; struggles that have just pitted our public men one against another, and to some extent, I am sorry to say, even our faiths and races against each other. (Hear, hear.) For one, I do believe that these struggles — of the latter class I mean — were dying out, but for these contem plated changes, which are threatening to revive them. But, however that may be, struggles there have been amongst us, of which wc have no cause to be proud; thinga have occurred siuce the union of which we ought to be aahamed, if we are not (Hear, hear.) Of thia kind are the only atruggles that we have had ; and when, from such a past and present, we are told to start with the idea, so to speak, of at once creating and developing the character of a new and uoited nation, under institutions giving us a something short of indepen dence, and at the same time any quantity of matters about which to dispute and come to trouble, we may as well not shut our eyes to the fact, that we start with but poor omens 515 of success. (Hear, hear.) But I have to turn now, Mr. Speaker, to another branch of my comparison — the financial; and here, I may at once give the House an assurance, which I am sure it will be glad to have, that I will not trouble it with more figurea than are absolutely necessary to my explanation of the views I have to present, and that I will not give a single figure as to which there can be the posaibility of a controveray. The contraat between the financial system as a whole, with which the framers of the United States Constitution started, and the financial system with which it is proposed we shall start, is as salient as it is possible for the human intellect to conceive ; and further the contrast between this proposed financial sys tem, and the financial system of England, is just aa aalient too. The framera ofthe United Statea Conatitution started with the principle, that between the United States andthe several states there should be no financial dealings at all. They were to have aeparate financial systems, separate treasuries, separate debts — all absolutely distinct. And ever since the time when the unhappy attempt on the part of Great Britain to tax the colonies was given up, almost as absolute a line of demar cation between the Imperial finances and treasury and the colonial finances and trea suries, has been maintained. We have had our own separate finances and our own sepa rate treasury, -with which the Imperial Govemment has had nothing to do. The Imperial Government may have gone, and may still go, to some expense on provincial behalf; but the British principle is, that Imperial finance is as distinct from the pro vincial, as in the United States Federal finance is from that ofany state. Now, theaya- tem proposed here for our adoption is not this of entire and aimple aeparation of the federal from the provincial treasuries, but a sy.stem of the most entire and complex confuaion between them. One has to think a good deal upon the subject, and to study it pretty closely to see precisely how the confusion is going to operate ; but there it is, unmistak ably, at every turn. I do not mean to say that under all the circumstances of the case something of this sort waa not unavoidable. In the courae of debate the other day, I remember a remark waa thrown acroaa the floor of the House upon this point and the Hon, Minister of Finance in effect said : "Yes, indeed, and it would have been a very pleasant thing for gentlemen opposed to the sohemOj if it had thrown upoQ the provincea a necessity of resorting to direct taxation." Of course, in the mere view of making the acheme palatable, iit waa clever to make the Federal treaaury pay for provincial expenditure ; but the syatem that had need be eatabliahed ahould bear testimony, not to clevernesa, but to wiadom. Is the system propoaed for our acceptance as good, then, as statesmen ought to and would have made it ? I think not ; and the extraordinary thing is, that it ia brought out with a flouriah of trumpeta, on the ground that in some unde- scribable way it is to work most economically ! (Hear, hear.) Well, to test it, I will take it up in three points of view — flrst, as to aaaets ; next, as to debta and liabilitiea ; and, lastly, as to revenues. Aa to the aaaet part of the queation, the tale is soon told. The assets of these provincea, apeaking generally, are of very little commercial value. They are niucb like the aaaets of an insolvent trader, with lets of bad debts upon his books; it is of small consequence to whom or ho-w they are assigned. The general principle upon which the soheme proceeds, is to give the Federal Govemment the bulk of these assets. The only exceptions of any conaequence — I am not gomg into the detaila of the acheme, but still I must present to the Houae so much of def-i.il as to show that I am making no rash statement, not borne out by facts — tbe only important exceptions, I say, to this rule are those I am about to notice. Certain proper- tiea auc'i aa penitentiariea, priaons, lunatic aay- lums, and other public charitable institutions, and other buildings and properties of the kind, which, together with those I have just mentioned, may be characterized as excep tional properties, are to be assigned by the general to the provincial governments. Also, with the exception of Newfoundland, the several provinces are to take the public lands, mines, minerals and royalties in each, and all assets connected with them — in com mon parlance, their territorial revenuea. The General Government ia, however, to have the mines, minerals and public lands of Newfoundland, paying for them of course. (Hear, hear.) Then, Upper and Lower Canada are severally to have those assets which are connected with the debts, reserved for payment by them reapectively; but these will not be worth mueh, and I shall not take the trouble of saying much about them. It is enough to know that tbe proportion of the debta to be assumed by the two has, not yet, for some reason, been stated, and that the assets connected with them amount to very 516 little. Further, I am not quite sure that I am right, but I understood the Hon. Attorney General for Lower Canada, the other night, to intimate that the seigniory of Sorel is to be somehow a provincial asset of Lower Canada. If that is not to be the case I will pass on ; but if it is, perhaps the honorable gentleman will sav so. Hon. Atty. Gen. CARTIER— I will speak on that subject at another time. Mr. DUNKIN— Then, I am to take it for granted, I suppose, that it is not to be a provincial asset ? Hon. Atty. Gen. CARTIER— I wUl not interrupt the hon. gentleman now, Mr. DUNKIN— Well, Mr Speaker, I did suppose that I should have had an immediate answer aa to whether thia seig niory is to be a provincial aaaet or not; but the hon. gentleman doea not aeem inclined to give any information upon the point. By theae resolutions it is provided, that all ordnance properties are to be taken by the General Government; and I never heard but that tbe seigniory of Sorel is an ordnance propertj-. But from the statement made here the other day, it would seem that although this printed document purports to be the scheme, it does not give us true in formation on this point. The wording of the 55th resolution ia, that the " property tranaferred by the Imperial Government and known aa ordnance property " ia to belong to the General Government; if any part of it ia really a provincial aaaet, it muat become 8o by one of thoae explanationa or glossea which we are not allowed to inaert in the inatrument now, but are to take our chance of for aome future time. (Hear, hear.) Paaaing over the myatery that seema to hang over the aubject, I refer then to a raat ter about which there can be no miatake. There certainly cannot be a doubt that the landa, mines, and minerals of Newfoundland are to be a Federal asset ; and there is not any doubt either that tbe Federal Govern ment will have to pay $150,000 a year for them. It ia perfectly certain that theae landa will coat that money; and it ia per fectly certain, I think, thatthe adminiatration of them will alao coat a certain amount of trouble and diapute, aa to the manner in which it is to be carried on. But if human nature remains human nature, we may rea sonably and probably surmise that they will not yield so great a revenue to the General Government as is by some thought. We shall have Newfoundland delegations in the Commons House, and in the other House ; and in order to keep them in anything like good humor, and to enable the Lieutenant- Governor of Newfoundland to carry on his government with anything like ease and com fort, tbeir lands, mines and minerals wUl have to be administered, not with a view to Federal revenue — even though to that end they are costing the direct payment of $150,000 a year— but with a view to New foundland popularity. In fact, I think it will be found that the management of these properties will be carried on more with a view to the development and profit of Newfoundland, than for any profit of the people of Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, and Upper and Lower Canada. Every man, woman and child — from the Lieutenant- Governor downwards — connected with New foundland, will regard it as a fit article of political faith, that tbey must be worked with a special view to the great future of that great country. And the consequence will be many little passages between the province and the Federal Government, not advantageoua to the latter, but illuatratlve of the way in whioh governments too often have to deal with thinga for which they have had to pay. Well, air, I pass to the matter of the debts; and these, it must be acknowledged, are rather more important than the aaseta. (Hear, hear.) 'There ia no miatake about that; though there might seem to be a miatake about the reaolutions on tbia aubject, were you to take their letter only. The aixtieth reaolution says that the General- Govemment shall assume all the debts and liabilities of each province; while the aixty-firat haa it, that part of our Canadian debt is to be borne by Upper and Lower Canada reapectively. In a aense, I wiU presently explain. I think the sixtieth resolution about tells the truth, or rather, I ought to aay, falls short of it. But it requires one to work the oracle out, to follow the calculation through, in order to see that it does so, that these debts will indeed all — and more than all — ^fall, directly or indirectly, on the Federal Government. Meantime, on our way to that part of my argument, I set it down that under the sixty-first resolution there is an amount of reserved debt which, in a certain man- ner, ia to fall on Upper and Lower Canada respectively. Pretty much aa it waa juat now in the ordnance property, so here, 517 we cannot get an intelligible answer as to what theae reserved debts are, as against either province, or what the assets are that each is to take as an offset to them. But, for the purpose of constituting the stated debt of the future Confederation, Upper and Lower Canada, we are told, are to throw into it an amount of 162,500,000, the surplus of their debt being nominally left to be borne by themselves, after they shall have become confederated ; Nova Scotia, on the otber hand, is to be aUowed to increase her debt to $8,000,000; and Newfoundland and Prince Edward Island are to throw in theirs at the nominal figure they stand at now. But, by an ingenious contrivance, the aggregate real debt of the country is to be, in effect, a good deal more than the aggregation of these figures would give. Upper and Lower t'anada, to begin with, as we have seen, are, besides, separately to pretend to bear the weight of their con siderable excesa of debt over the $62,500,000, or $25 a head, allowed under thia arrange ment. Nova Scotia and New Brunswick, should tbey not increase their debta to be aasumed up to this figure of $25 a head, are to be paid interest at five per cent, on any amount of shortcoming in that behalf they may be guilty of. And Newfoundland and Prince Edward Island are to be paid in terest at the some rate, on the amount to which their smaller debts fall abort of this same normal $25 allowance. For practical purposes, therefore, the debts of the four Lower Provinces are thus brought up to thia atandard level. The Federal Government ia to pay intereat on them to that tune — if not to creditora of thoae provincea, then to the provincea themaelve. And we are tostart with a clear, practical debt of $25 a head for every man, woman, and child in the Confederacy. Incurred or not, we atart with it aa due, and pay accordingly. And there are, besides, those amounts of debt left nom inally to the charge of Upper Canada, as to which I shall have a word more to say shortly. Meantime, I proceed to our third head — of revenues. And here, the firat and moat striking fact is, that the Federal Government IS to make yearly grants, payable, by the way, semi-annually and in advance, to each province, in proportion to its population as shown by the census of 18*jl, and at the rate of 80 cents a head. And the way in which thia 80 centa a head apportionment iscomeat, is in itself somewhat edifying. According to the statements made here by Ministers, the Finance BInisters of the several pro vinces were invited at the Conference to come forward with a statement of their respective wants. Of courae tbeir atate menta were to be framed with a due regard to economy. Such thinga are always to be done economically. This is a diplomatic phrase, of which we underatand here the full meaning ; and I was not at all surprised to hear, that however economically the statements were made out, thoy had to be cut down. Whether they are said to have been cut down once or twice, or oftener, I do not distinctly recollect. But, at laat, after having been duly cut down, they were found to require thia grant or aub vention, at the rate of 80 centa a head all round — aubject always to deduction as againat the Canadas, and to additions in favor of the four Lower Provinces, as we shall presently aee. With leaa, the provincoa could not get on at the rate thought neceasary, unless by levying undesired taxes Well, besides these subventions, the provinces (all but Newfoundland) are to have tho proceeds of their lands, minea and minerals ; and New foundland is to have, instead, the further grant from the Federal treasury, of $150,000 a year, for ever. They may all, further, derive some more indirect iovenue from licenses of various aorta ; and Nova Sootia may add to theae an exceptional, and ex ceptionable, export duty on coal and other minerals; and New Brunswick, the like on lumber. Beaidea wbich, on the mere ground that she cannot do without it. New Bruna wick ia to bave a further Federal grant of $63,000 a year for ten yeara ; unlesa, indeed, in the event of her not augmenting her debt to tbe full amount, in which case, any payment made to her of interest on that score is to be deducted from the $63,000 — a shrewd hint, by the way, that she had not best be too economical — and, lastly, all are to have the precious right of direct taxation, and the higher privilege of borrowing without limit. The Federal power is to havo, of courae, the right to tax in all aorta of ways, the special export duties made over to New Brunawick and Nova Scotia, alone excepted. Now, Mr. Speaker, taking thia whole arranage- ment togethe-r, I muat repeat that I see in it no principle but "one. The provinces are to be able to carry on their opera tions according to their supposed probable future exigencies, without danger of direct, that is to say, oppressive or new taxation. Well, sir, engineers say that tbe mea- 518 sure of strength of a fortified place is the strength of its weakest part. And this principle ia here applied to our provinoes in a financial point of -view. The need of the neediest is made the measure of the aid given to all. The most embarrassed is to have enough for its purposes, and the rest are to receive, if not exactly in the same ratio, at least so nearly up to the mark as that they shall all be satisfied ; while, on the other hand, the debts of aU the provinces are to be, for all practical ends, raised to the full level of the moat indebted. To ahow this, air, another word or two aa to the amount of tho promiaed aubventions to Upper and Lower Canada. This is to be, as we have seen, only the 80 cents a head, less some deduction, I care not what, for the purpose of my pre sent argument ; but there is no doubt, I say, that they are to receive less than the 80 cents, because the excess of their debt over $62,- 500,000, though thrown on them, wiU have to be guaranteed, and the interest on it will have be paid by the Federal Government, and that interest will be deducted by the Federal Government from the subventions payable to them respectively. The Lower Pro-vinces, on the other hand, as we have also seen, are reaUy to get more. Well now, suppose for the moment the arrangement had been, for the Confederation to assume at once the whole debt of Canada, and accordingly to pay pro portionably larger amounts of interest to the other provinces. The two Canadas would then have needed, exactly, so much the less of nominal aubvention, and the other pro vincea too. The cost to tbe Federal treaaury, in the whole, would still have been exactly what it is. Indirectly, therefore, I say that for all practical purposes there is thrown upon the General Government the whole .amount of the past debts of these provinces, and more ; and the whole burden, too, of the carrying on of the machinery of government, both Federal and Provmcial ; unless, indeed, any of the provinces should see fit hereafter to undertake what I may call extraordinary expenditure and to defray it themselves. I do not think they wiU. It would involve direct taxation. And I think they can do better. But for aU this part of the plan, sir, it is like the reat framed on the mere idea of making thinga pleaaant — the politician idea of anyhow win ning over intereata or partiea for to-day — not on any atateamanlike thought aa to its future working and effecta. (Hear, hear.) Now, Mr. Speaker, with this outline of the sys tem, I should be glad to know where the prospect of economy of administration is to be found. The Honorable Finance Minister of the future Federal Government wUl have to do — what? To come with a budget, not merely to cover the outlay of the Federal Government — that is of course — but with a budget to cover alao aU that I may caU the normal outlay, the intended outlay, the fore- aeen outlay of all the provinces. (Hear, hear.) The Minister of Finance — if any there ia — of the province, unleas he chooses to outrun the constable ; unless, with his lieu tenant-governor and local government and le gislature, he chooses to spend more than he can get out of the Federal Government, by this ayatem, or by that nice modification of it which ia pretty sure to be soon thought of, and to which I shall by and by advert, need have no budget at aU. He knows he ia to have about so much from his landa, mines and minerals, so much from licenses and 80 forth, 80 much from the Federal Gov ernment, 80 many thousand or hundred thousand dollars in all ; and he wiU of course make the beat he can of that. And by the way, it is a remarkable fact in this connec tion, that we find tbat with one accord those who are undertaking to apeak to the dif ferent provinces in aupport of Confederation are agreed in each teUing the people of his own province what a firat-rate bargain has been made fbr it. (Hear, hear.) My hon. friend from Hochelaga read us an extract the other night from a speech of Hon. Mr. Til ley, of New Brunawick, in which that hon. gentleman cyphered out, perfectly to his satis faction, and to that of many who heard him, that New Brunswick is guaranteed an excesa over her real needa, of $34,000 -i year. If I am not miataken, the Hon. Solicitor General for Lower Canada undertook aince, in this House, to shew us that some $200,000 or more ar year beyond hers, is in the same way secured to Lower Canada ; even though she does not receive the full 80 centa a head. I think I remember that the Hon. President of the Council — though I have not yet got the report of his apeech to refreah my memory — made it a point that really Upper Canada, as well as Lower Canada, is comfortably off in this respect. One hears too, I think, of the same aong in Nova Scotia ; and in Prince Edward Ialand certainly, we have the advo- 0- tea of Confederation telling the people there — " Yoa, too, have got a capital bargain, you have so much more to apend, according 519 to this arrangement, than you ever had before." A strange comment on that earnest desire for economy, which is claimed to have dictated the whole of these arrangements. (Hear, hear.) If that was the intention, the per formance has fallen far short of it, (Hear, hear.) And before I go further, there occurs to me this consideration, arising out of this state of things — out of this abun dance, not to say plethora, that is meant to characterize the pro-vincial exchequers, what^ ever may be the case with the Federal exchequer under the system — one considera tion, I say, connected with this, which should not be lost sight of when we are talking about the application of anything in the least like responsible government to our provinces. I never yet heard of an elected legialative body that had much control over a government, unleaa it had hold of the strings of a purse from which the govemment wanted to get something. In the old days, before responsi ble government was thought of — in the days when casual and territorial revenues gave provincial govemments aU they wanted, or a little more — provincial legislatures had mighty little to do with government, and, if they complained of a grievance, were little likely to be listened to. It was even the same long before at home. When the English Crown had ita abundance of resources, English kinga cared little for their parliaments. But when their resources were exhausted, and they could not borrow eaaily, and had to aak for taxes, then the Houae of Commona began to acquire power, and, in course of time, became the body it is now. I shaU be surprised if we do not find, in the event of this Confederation taldng place, that for aome time our pro vincial legialatures, whether they conaiat of one chamber or of two, will be less powerful for good than many would wiah to have them, that the machine of state will not be altogether driven by their means. But there is another result, about which there can be no question. With one accord, not in Ne-wfoundland merely — I was hinting a little while ago at what would be the caae of Newfoundland, as to ita lands, mines and minerals — not there only, but in all the pro vincea — the provincial governments will, in a quiet way, want money, and the provincial legislators and people will want it yet more ; grants for roads and bridges, for schools, for charities, for salaries, for contingencies of the legislative body — for all manner of ends they -wiU be wanting money, and where is it to come from? Whether the constitution of the Provincial Executive savors at all of re sponsible govemment or not, be sure it will not be anxious to bring itself more under the control of the legislature, or to make itself more odious than it can help, and the easiest way for it to get money will be from the Gen eral Government. I am not sure, either, but that most members of the provinc' al legis) a^ tures will like it that way the best. (Hear, hear.) It will not be at aU unpopular, the getting of money so. Quite the contrary. Gentlemen will go to their constituents with an easy conscience, telling them ; " True, we had not much to do in the Provincial Legis lature, and you need not ask very closely what elae we did ; but I tell you what, we got the Federal Govemment to increaae the aubvention to our province by five cents a head, and aee what this give^ you — $500 to that road — $1000 to that charity — so much here, so much there. That we have done; and have we not done well ? " (Hear, hear.) I am afraid in many constituencies the ans wer would be ; " Yes, you have done weU ; go and do it again." I am afraid the provin cial constituencies, legislatures and executives will all show a most calf-like appetite for the milking of this one most magnificent govern ment cow. Hon. j. S. MACDONALD— There wUl be more municipal loan funds. Mr. DUNKIN— Yes, that is one of the analogies, and there is another even nearer. Years ago, we in Canada said we would for ever give a certain fixed sum per annum for an edu cation fund. It was to be divided, in a cer tain ratio, between Upper and Lower Canada. But from time to time, as the census shewed changes of their relative population, the divi sion was to be altered. In a little while this alteration of ratio gave Lower Canada less money and Upper Canada more. " Oh I but," said the Administration, " we cannot do that with Lower Canada. After having had distrib uted to her so many thousands a year, she could not stand having ever so much less. No, no ; we cannot do that. What shall we ^o, then ? In our estimates we will put in a vote for Lower Canada, just to keep her figure up to the mark of what she has been receiving. And what then ? Why, of course, we must add a vote for Upper Canada in the same pro portion, just to take her so much further beyond her former figure." (Hear, hear.) To be sure, I do find, with reference to this subven tion, a pleasant Uttle expression, which one wishes may be carried out. It is to be " in full." " Such aid shall be in full settlement 520 of all future demands upon the General Gov emment for local purposes, and shall be paid half-yearly, in advance, to each province." Yes, sir, so tbe text runs. But suppoae our selvea in the time of our firat, or aecond, or third Federal Cabinet, conaiating of ita six or more sections, of course ; and, for the sake of my argument, I will auppose a great deal, that every one of these sections controls com fortably the delegations from ita own province in the two Houaea of Parliament, that the machine ia working beautifully, that there is no lieutenant-governor cruaty, no provin cial adminiatration kicking over the tracea, and no provincial legialature giving any other trouble than by its anxiety to be weU- paid. I will auppose even that thia halcyon state of things has gone on for aome time. But one or two or more of the provincea begin to feel that they cannot do without hiving more money. And the preaaure will be auch upon the Provincial Legialature and upon the Lieutenant-Governor, and upon the delegationa to the General Legialature, and upon the section of the Federal Executive repreaenting each such province, that it never can be long resisted ; there will be trouble if it is, and things muat be kept pleaaant. (Hear, hear.) One mode — the moat obvious, though the leaat scientific — will be just to increase the sub vention from eighty to eighty-five, or even to eighty-two or eighty-one cents a head. An additional cent a head from the Federal Exchequer would be an object — a few cents a head would be a boon. Or suppoae the demand took thia form . suppoae the people — aay of Upper or Lower Canada — should say, " Those Newfoundlandera are getting $150,000 a year for their lands, mines, and minerals; and the Federal Government is positively administering those lands, mines, and minerals, not for Federal profit, but more for the advantage of thxt province than we find we can administer our own ; the General Government, therefore, must take our lands, mines, and minerala, and give ua alao an equivalent." That ia one way of doing the thing ; and, when the time comea for making that sort of demand, depend upon it that it will sound singularly reasonable in the ears of the provinces whoae repreaentativea shall make it ; and if two or three provinces ahall join in the demand, my word for it, the thing wiU aoon be done. The same aort of thing may be looked for in reference to the New Brunawick timber export duty and the Nova Scotia mineral export duty. Here ia one form of the cry that may be raiaed — " You give these exceptional privileges to New Bruns-wick and Nova Scotia ; give them, or some equiva lent, to us also." With common ingenuity lots of such cries may be nicely got up. But for everything so given, much or little, to what ever province, you wiU have to do the like for all the rest, and the figure will be alarming before you get to the end. And even this is not all. Not only will you havo these com paratively direct demands — more or less in geniously, but always irresistibly — made, but you will have demands made in a more indi rect form which it will be yet easier to carry, from their consequences not being so clearly aeen, and which will therefore be atiU worae in their effecta. I apeak of that tremendoua catalogue of outlays which may be gone into without the appearance of a grant to any par ticular province — the costly favors which may be done in reapect of inter-provincial ferries, ateamahip Unea between or from the pro-vinces, railways between or through the provinces, telegraph lines, agriculture, immigration, quarantine, fisheries, and so forth. There will be claims of every description under aU theae heada ; and beaidea them there wUl be the long roll of internal improvementa of all kinds, whether for the benefit of one or of more than one of the provinoes. For any looal work in which it can be at all pretended that it is of general interest, pressure may be brought to bear upon the General Government and Legislature, and whenever one pro-yince succeeds in getting any such grant, every other province muat be dealt with in the aame way. Corapenaation muat-be made all round, and no human intellect can eatimate the degree of extravagance that before long muat become aimply inevitable. (Hear, hear.) Sir, with our Qpper and Lower Canada we have had pretty good proof of this. We know that whenever anything has had to be done for one aection of this province, it has constantly been found necesaary to do aome thing of the same or of some other kind for the other. If either needed anything very badly, then the ingenuity of the Minister of Finance had to be exerciaed to diacover some thing elae of like value to give the other. In one word, unless I am more mistaken than I think I can be, these local govemmenta -will be pretty good daughtera of the horae-leech, and their cry will be found to be pretty often and pretty succeasfuUy — " Give, give, give! " But, air, there ia very little need for our dealing with conaiderationa of thia kind as to a future about which one may be thought to be in danger of drawing more or leaa upon imagin- 521 ation. We have in these resolutions a some thing that is to come upon us, one may say, at once ; I allude to the expenditure for our defences — the Intercolonial Railway — the opening of communication with the North- West — and the enlargement of our canals. There is no doubt that all these new sources of outlay are immediately contemplated. Their cost is not given us ; it could not be given -with any safety to the scheme. I do not pretend to say, sir, but that some of these expenditures are necessary ; and this I am even prepared to say as to one of them — the outlay for defences — that every province of the empire is bound to do its full share towards its own defence. QHear, hear.) I never gave a vote or expressed an opinion in any other, sense. I was always ready with my vote for that purpoae. (Hear, hear.) But looking at the great outlay, I may aay the enormous outlay here understood to be contemplated, I confess I cannot approach the subject in this connection without a feeling of misgiving. I can quite understand our going to the full limit of our means for all the ex pense that is necessary for the thorough main tenance of our militia on an efficient footing as to instruction and otherwise ; but when we hear of Imperial engineers, with Imperial ideas as to cost, laying out grand permanent works of defence, then I confess I am much incUned to think that we had need try to practice what economy we can in that direc tion. (Hear, hear.) Then, as regards the Intercolonial Railway, we have in these reso lutions a very blind tale indeed. " The Gen eral Government shall secure, without delay, the completion of the Intercolonial Railway from Riviere du Loup, through New Bruns wick, to Truro in Nova Scotia" — and this quite irrespectively of the expense. The vague pledge is, that the General Governmeut shaU at any cost secure tbe immediate com pletion of this work. As to its commercial or miUtary advantages, I have not a great idea of them. I believe there has been much exagger ation as to both. Unless with a strong force to defend it, in a military point of view, it would be of just no use at all. (Hear, hear.) For my own part, as I have often said, I heartily wish to see the road built ; but un less we can get it done upon terms within our means, we had better do without it a little longer, and develope what other means of communication are at our command. While I want to see the thing done, I am not pre pared for the declaration I find in these reso- utions, that, coUte que coUte, we will at once fi7 have it. I doubt the policy of that way of dealing. (Hear, hear.) Viewed in its politi cal aspects, tbe work is as much an Imperial as a provincial work ; is one for which we have a right to look for aid from the Empire. I know it is said the Empire is going to aid us. Well, for a long time we held this lan guage : if the Imperial Government and the Lower Provinces between them will combine to do tbe rest, we are ready with lands and subsidies, in a certain proportion and to a certain limited amount. It is unfortunate, in my opinion, that that proposal led to no result. I should have been glad to have ob tained it on such terma, and even would have bid up the limit to the utmost extent of our means. Hon. j. S. MACDONALD— That offer is extant yet. Mr. DUNKIN— I know it is, but those since made have left it outof sight. In 1862 the start was made to a larger and not limited outlay — five-twelfths of an unstated whole — Great Britain to reduce the cost by endorsing for us to a stated figure. I regretted that scheme; but still it was better for us than what is now being forced upon us. By this last acheme, Canada will have to bear aome nine- twelf tha — it haa been aaid ten- twelfths — but some nine-twelfths, at any rate. In fact, the bulk of the burden is to fall on us ; and it is aignificant, though I dare aay that the honorable gentlemen who drew up thia reaolu tion did not mean it, that it aeema to let the Imperial Government off froxu its guarantee. This ia no more critioiam of mine ; my atten tion waa drawn to the point by the article in the Edinburgh Review from which I was quoting last night. That writer — who is not a nobody, you may depend upon it — remarks, in effect, that from the wording of thia reso lution, the honorable gentlemen ofthe Confer ence do not seem to be holding to the Imperial guarantee. Should it not be given, the cost to us will be frightfully increased. And this it had not need be. For the honorable gen tlemen who are running us into it might do well to remember the past. We had the Grand Trunk railway offered us for what was called next to nothing. The guarantee we were to give was not for much ; and it was well secured ; and we were assured it waa not meant to be made use of^ — was more a form than a reality. Yet the guarantee was uaed and extended, and made a gift of ; every eatimate failed ; the cry ever since has been for more, more ; and the whole concern is now in such a state as to be threatening us day by day 522 with yet larger demands on the public purse than ever, to keep it going. Well, air, I paaa on from these hes-vy outlays for permanent de fences, and the Intercolonial Railway ; and I read in these resolutions that " the communi cations with the North-Western territory, and the improvements required for the de velopment of the trade of the Great Weat with the seaboard, are regarded by this Conference as subjects of tbe highest importance to the Federated Provinces, and shall be proaecuted at the earlieat poaaible period that the atate of the finances will permit." Well, air, we are told that this last phraae ia aynonymoua -with thoae unqualified worda, " without de lay," that are uaed aa to the Intercolonial. I am rerainded of a aaying current in the daya of Lord Sydenham, who waa a good deal in the habit of wanting work done faater than the workera liked, and of whom it uaed to be aaid that all he ordered had to be done " immediately, if not aooner." (Hear, hear, and laughter.) I take it, the Intercolonial Railway ia to be done " immediately, if not aooner," and these other improvements are to wait tiU "immediately, if not later." They are to be proaecuted aa aoon as tbe state of the financea will permit. I know some hon. gentlemen think that will be very soon, but if so, there muat be moat extraordinary meana taken to borrow or otherwiae raiae money. (Hear, hear.) Nothing can be vaguer than the intimation given aa- to what theae worka are to be. The communicationa with the Great North-Weatern territory, where are they to begin ; what are they to be; and where are they to end? And the other improvementa to be carried out the communicationa with the seaboard — the enlargement of the canala — bow much en largement, 8ir, and of how many and what canala ? An honorable friend near me saya canal enlargeraent ia or ahould be productive. No doubt, but at what rate ? 1 remember reading in a Lower Province paper the other day of a late apeech of Hon. Mr. Tilley'.s, in which he aaid that at the Quebec Confer- enoe they went into a calculation of the pro ductive value of the entire outlay of theae provincea upon productive public works, aod found them to be yielding an average of one and an eighth of one per cent,, or aomething like that, of yearly return upon their co.st. I admit there may be in the widening of these canals a something of pro ductiveness; but to aay that it will be any thin o- like proportionate to the outlay, ia absurd*^ But what I am coming back to is this — we are to go at once into the outlay of the Inter colonial Railway, and we are to go into this other, too ; but yet, almoat beyond the shadow of a doubt, these canals and other communi cations witb the west — whioh western politi cians think they are to get as their equivalent — are to be held back a bit, I forgot to bring here an extract from a late speech of Hon. Sir. TiLLEY's,in which heplainlysaid tbatan immediate carryingon ofthese western works did not enter into the calculations of the Conference, tbat the Intercolonial was unmis takably to be put through at ouce ; but that tbe Lower Province delegates gave no promise of the like prosecution of these other works as fhe price of that. (Hear, hear.) An Hon. MEMBER— Where do vou find that? Mr. dunkin— It is quoted in a late number ofthe Toronto Leader ; and if any one wiU bring me the fyle of that paper from below, I will read the words with pleasure. Now, Mr. Speaker, I am raising no question of any one's sincerity upon this question. The poUticians of the eastern provinces, I have no doubt, are thoroughly in earnest in their demand for the construction of the Intercolon"al road, and are quite wUling to have the westem improvementa begun about aa aoon aa they can be ; and lam quite sure that the friends of thia scheme in the weat want their weatern worka instantly gone on with. I even beUeve they both think they will get what tbey want; but I am surprised at their credulity, for I do not aee how they can. I beUeve thoy are deceiving themaelvea and their frienda with the bright picturea their fancy haa been painting, and that my weatern frienda, at any rate, are doomed to aome disappointment. Whenever a Federal Parliament shall meet, I fancy it will become a queation of grave interest whether or not the state of the finances will admit of the conatruction of all theae worka ; and if not, then what is to be done firat— and how— and when ? And aa I have shewn, unless the SIX majorities are pretty much agreed, there will be no great deal done in any hurry. •' Hon. j. S. MACDONALD— That is worse than the double maiority Mr. dunkin- Yea, three timea aa bad, to aay the leaat. WeU, auppose the financiers of the Lower Provincea, having before their eyea the fear of direct taxation by the Federal ParUament, should come to the 523 conclusion that it will not signify for a few years, whether these western works are begun at once or not ; and should propose to sit down first a little, and Count the cost. Hon. j. S. MACDONALD— Insist on having a survey made, for instance, first ? Mr. dunkin— Well yes, tbat would probably be insisted upon before they would consent to commit themselves further to the undertaking. Suppose, then. Lower Canada to go with the Lower Provinces for staving off this commencement of these works, how will it fare with Upper Canada's demand for them ? And what will not be the indignation of the people of Upper Canada at being tied to, and controlled by the non-progressive people of the east ? Or, suppose that Upper and Lower Canada should agree, and the Lower Provincea be aeriously angry, at any over-caution eastward, or over-rashneaa weatward ; would not they too, so left out in the cold, be making things quite unpleaaant? Or again, suppose the raore eastern and the western interests should continue to push on both plans, careless of cost, and that Lower Canada, for fear of direct taxation, should hold back in earnest, would that make no trouble ? Ia not any one of theae auppoaitions more probable than the cool assumption, over which weatern gentlemen are so happy, that when the time comes all interests will inatantly work to gether, and by magic do everything, east and west, at once ? But, be thia aa it may, sir, on all three accounta — defencea. Intercolonial road and western works — we are aure of cost, as well as of disputes, in plenty. And there is, besides, a fourth. I ahall have occaaion to shew presently that we are going to be called upon to spend money for yet another kindred purpose, and a large amount too — and this, as a part of this scheme. Our star of empire ia to wing its way weat ward ; and we are to confederate everything in its track, from Newfoundland to Vancouver's Island, this last included. But, between us and it, there lies the Hudson Bay territory. So, of course, we must acquire that for confederation purpoaes ; and the plan ia, that before we get it we ahall have to pay for the elephant — though, after we get him, we may find him costly and hard to keep. It will not be difficult to prove that this is contemplated by the promoters of this soheme. Between railways and canals, and western extensioD, before we get the scheme carried out in all its contemplated amplitude, we shall have bled pretty well, and seen some sights that wc have hardly yet learnt to anticipate. (Hear, hear.) Well, with this certain prospect before us of a gigantic outlay, wbat is the proapeot for a gigantic income ? A MEMBER— Oh, never mind that. Mr. DUNKIN— I quite underatand that many hon. gentlemen take little thought of where money ia to come fiom, if only it ia to be apent as they wish. But, Mr. Speaker, before I go further, I am handed the fyle of the Toronto Leader, and, with the leave ot the House, I will read from it the extracis from Hon. Mr. Tillby's speech to which I was referring some minutes ago. This jour nal refers to it as follows : — Mr. Tilley, we are sorry to say, does not give us much hope of the speedy enlargement of our canals. He laugha at the idea of hia opponent quoting Mr. Browk aa authority that thia work is to be undertaken at once. " The Conference," aaya Mr. TiLLEV, " agreed to build the railroad without delay, the canals as -o^n as the state ofthe finances will peimit." But he ridiculea the idea that the finances will be held at once to admit of this being done. " Cauada," aays Mr. Tilley, "could uot have been brought into the union on a promise to build her canala, for the railroad will coat $12,000,000, whioh added to the $22,000,000 for canala, would be au amount far above what they could have gained them for without Confe deration." Such ia Hon. Mr.Tii.LEv's style of remark, and I do not think it is at all encouraging to the very sanguine view of the scheme taken by aome western politioiana. It ia presumable that he will take Newfoundland, Prince Edward Island and Nova Scotia with him, and along with them he will get much of Lower Canada. If I should have the honor of a seat in the House, they may depend upon it, I ahall do what I can to get them fair play. But I repeat, I do not expect to see them aatiafied with the reault. Well, air, however thia may be, there ia going to be, at any rate, an immenae amount of money required, come from whence it may. Where ia it to come from ? We oannot shut our eyes to the fact, that the cuatoms tariff must come down. (Hear.) There are no two ways about that Our tariff ia much higher than thoae of the Lower Provincea; and the advocates of Confederation there have to asaure people that their tariffa will not be materially raised, in order to get any sort of hearing for the scheme. To tell them that the tariff of Canada ia to be that of the Confederation, would bo to ruin the chances of getting a favorable reception for it. (Hear, h^Eff.) 524 We are marching faat and steadily towarda free trade. We must meet the views of the people of the Lower Provinces, who are hos tile to high tariffa, and the demand of the Imperial authorities that we ahould not tax their manufactures so heavily as — in their phrase— almost to deprive them of our mar ket. It was distinctly and officially stated the other day, in Newfoundland, tbat aaaur ance had been given to the Governi-ient of Newfoundland that the viewa of the Cana dian Govemment are unmistakably in this direction. And I do not think there is any mistake about that, either. To shew how people at home, too, expect our tariff to come down, I may refer to the apeech of Mr. Hambury Tracy, in aeconding the Addreaa in anawer to the Speech from the Throne, in the Houae of Commona the other day. He could not atop, after saying generally that he waa pleaaed with thia Confederation move ment, without adding that he truated it would reault in a very considerable decreaae ia the abaurdly high and hoatile tariff at present prevailing in Canada, I have not here the exact words, but that waa their purport. Well, if the euatoma tariff ia to come down largely, we muat look xbr a decrease of revenue. I am free to admit that a reduction of the tariff on certain articles, or even some measure of reduction all round, might be no material loaa, or might even be a ^ain, to the revenue — in ordinary or prosperous timea, that ia to say. But when the object of reducing the tariff ia to meet other exigencies than thoae of revenue, one can hardly hope to get auch a tariff aa ahall give ua the largeat revenue attainable. And besidea, no one can deny that we are about entering upon a time, ccmmercially apeaking, that may be termed hard. We have had, for aome time paat, pretty heavy importationa, and our beat in formed and ahrewdeat commercial men tell ua that we are going to have, for aome time to come, pretty light importationa. We are not to have a plethoric purae, even under ordinary drafts upon it, for some yeara, Hon. Mr. HOLTON— The tiard time is come now. Mr. dunkin — Yes, it is come, or is close on ua, and it rather threatena to laat. And if, j with this state of things before us, to oblige the Imperial authorities and the Lower Pro vincea, under preaaure of an inevitable atate neceaaity, we are to reduce our euatoma rates, or any number of them, below what I may call their figure of largest productive ness, then aurely it is little to say that we cannot look forward to an increase in the revenue, or even to a continuance of oui present income, and it is rather strange that we sbould be called upon, withal, at the same time ao to change our whole aystem as to involve ourselves in the enormous extra vagances here contemplated. No taxing soheme can ever meet the case. Nothing can be looked to, but a device of borrowing without limit — the incurring of an amount of debt that, in interest and sinking fund, muat prove to be simply unendurable here after. (Hear, hear.) But, in fact, we can not even borrow to any large amount unless under false pretences. We cannot borrow without telling tales of our con dition, resourcea and expectationa, that will in the end be found out to be lies. We must awaken hopes in the minds of money lenders abroad, that cannot but prove deluaive — the memory of which muat work us hereafter an aggravation of punishment that we shall then scarcely need. And when that time of reckoning shall have come, then staggering under the load, without credit at home or abroad, the country -will have to chooae whether it wiU have heavy direct tax ation — for hea-vy auch taxation then must be — or have recourse to more or less of re pudiation; or even run some risk of both. Sir, if ever that time shall come, the pubUc men of that day and the people on whom the burthen will then press, will not bless the memory of those who held out the false hopes and inducements under which it is now sought to decoy us into -wild expenditure and crushing debt. (Hear, hear.) Well, Mr. Speaker, I now paaa to another branch of my subject ' altogether. There is a further saUent con trast between the American system and the syatem propoaed for our adoption. The people of the United States, when they adopted their Constitution, were one of the nations of the earth. They formed their whole system with a view to national ex istence. They had fought for their inde pendence, and had triumphed ; and stiU in the flush of their triumph, they were laying the foundations of a system absolutely na tional. Their Federal Government was to have ita relations with other nations, and was aure to have plenty to do upon entermg the great family of nationa. But we— what are we doing ? Creating a new nationality, ac cording to the advocatea of this scheme. I hardly know whether we are to take the phrase for ironical, or not. Is it a remiadet 525 that in fact we have no sort of nationality about us, but are unpleasantly cut np into a lot of struggling nationalities, as between ourselves ? Unlike the people of the United States, we are to have no foreign relations to look after, or national affairs of any kind ; and therefore our new nationality, if we could create it, could be nothing but a name. I must say that according to my view of the change we ought to aim at, any idea of Fed eration that we may entertain had need take an Imperial direction. Whenever changing our institutions, we had need develope and strengthen — ^not merely maintain, but main tain, develope and strengthen — the tie, not yet Federal as it ought to be, between us and the parent state. (Hear, hear.) It is the entire Empire that should be federalized, and cemented together as one, and not any mere limited number of its dependencies here or there. A general, or so called federal government, such as we are here proposing to create, will most certainly be in a false po sition. As I said just now, the Federal Gov emment of the United States was to take its place in the great family of the nations of the earth ; but what place in that family are we to occupy? Simply none. The Imperial Government wiU be the head of the Empire as much as ever, and will alone have to attend to all foreign relationa and national mattera ; whUe we shall be nothing more than we are now. Half-a-dozen coloniea federated are but a federated colony after all. In atead of being so many separate provinces with workable institutions, we are to be one province most cumbrously organised — nothing more. How many grades of government are we going to have under this system ? The Im perial Government, the one great head of the Empire; then this Federal Government ; then our lot of provincial governments; below them again, our county municipalities, and, still below these, our township and other local mu nicipalities. (Hear, hear.) We have thus five different sete of governmental machinery, and of these five there is just one too many in my judgment. You might as well make six while you are about it, and interpolate be tween our provincial and county governments a district governmental machinery. If we did that we should be doing a thing not a whit more absurd than we propose to do now, in erecting a new piece of such machinery be tween the Imperial and provincial govern mente. We do not want a third municipal govemment, because there is nothing for it to do ; and when we propose to create a Federal Government between the Imperial and Pro- -vincial, we are equally proposing to create a something which, having nothing of its o-wn to do, must find work by encroaching on the functions of the Imperial and provincial gov ernments in turn, with no place among na tions, no relations with other eoutUries, no foreign policy ; it will atand in juat the same position towards the Imperial Government as Canada now standa in, or as Upper or Lower Canada before the union used to occupy. That intermediate work ol government which is now done by the Povince of Canada, the Province of New Brunswick, the Province of Nova Scotia, the Province of Prince Edward Island and the Province of Newfoundland, is to be done, part by the Federal Government and part by the provincea. The work is sim ply divided that ia now done by the provin cial legialaturea and govemmenta, and in my opinion there ia no uae in thia subdivision of work at all. You are putting this fifth wheel to the coach, merely to find out that a misfit ting odd wheel will not serve any useful pur pose, nor so much as work smoothly with the other four. (Hear, hear.) Your Federal Government will occupy about as anomalous a position between the Imperial and provin cial governments as I showed, last night, will be occupied by your lieutenant governors between tbe Federal authority and the pro vinces. Both will be out of place, and to find themselves in work they must give trouble. I do not see how they can do good, but I do see how they can do any quantity of harm. (Hear, hear.) The real difficulty in our po sition is one that is not met by the machinery here proposed. What is that difficulty ? In the larger provinces of the empire we have the system of responsible government thor oughly accorded by the Imperial Government, and thoroughly worked out ; and the difficul ty of the system that is now pressing, or ought to be, upon tbe attention of our states men is just this — that the tie connecting us with the Empire, and which ought to be a federal tie of the strongest kind, is too slight, is not, properly apeaking, so much as a federal tie at all. These provinces, with local respon sible govemment, are too nearly in the posi tion of independent communities ; there is not enough of connection between them and the parent state to make the relations between the two work weU, or give promise of lasting long. There is in the machinery too much of what may be caUed the centrifugal ten- 526 dency. (Hear, hear.) All the great pro vinces are flying off too much, attending too exclusively to mere local conaiderationa, too Uttle to thoae of the general or Imperial kind. And at home, aa we seem to be flymg off, they, too, are thinking of us and of the interests they and we have in common lesa and leaa. - What ia wanting, if one ia to look to the intereat of the Empire, which ia really that of aU ita parta- what ia wanting, as I have said, is an effective federalization of the Empire as a whole, not a subordinate federa tion here or there, made up out of parta of it. I have neither time nor atrength to-night to go fairly into tbe question of how this thing should bo done ; but a few words more as to that, I must be pardoned for. Until latterly in Canada we have not had, and some colo nies have not now, I beheve, a Minister of MUitia. Even we bave not as yet, in our Cabinet, a minister to attend to wbat may be caUed Imperial affairs. It is not the business of any miniater, nor ia it even diatinctly recog nized aa that of the Ministry as a whole, in any of these provincea, to attend to what is really at the preaent juncture the most important part of our whole public buaineaa — ^the regulation of affaire between tbem and tbe Mother Country. I know it may be aaid thia ia in the hands of the Governor. So are other thinga. But for them, we see the need of his ha-ving adviaera. And as to this, if a Cabinet leaves it wholly to him, that practically amounts fo ita neglecting theae affairs alto gether. Let me go back to a point or two in the history of affairs in Canada within the re collection of all honorable gentlemen. In 1862,when the then Militia BiU waa before the House, it was aaked over and over again by gentlemen of tbe Oppoaition, what communica tiona, if any, had been received from the Im perial Govemment in reapect of the defencfe of thia pro-vince ; and the answer invariably waa, that there had been none, none known to the Administration, aa an administration. Now, if there had then been an officer — the Pro vincial Secretary, the Miniater of Militia, or any other member of the Government — whose duty it had been and was to attend to that important branch of the public aervice ; if the relationa between the Mother Country aud this province had been known to be in his charge, such an answer as that could never have been given, nor the second reading of that bill lost in consequence. The other night, when the Raid Prevention and Alien BiU was before the House, we did receive the intima tion that the Motber Country desired legisla tion of that kind at our hands ; and it passed accordingly. But that intimation was then given us exceptionally. There is a large dass of questions springing up continually whioh affect Imperial interests and Imperial views as well as our own, and we ought to have— and if our connection with the Empire i8 to laat, we muat have— thia department of our public affaire attendedlto by a regularly appointed Miniater of the Crown here, who, whenever occaaion requirea, may explain them and who shaU be responsible to this House. Of course, nobody deniea that the Governor General ia the channel of communication between ua and the Imperial Government. He ia the Queen' a representative and aervant, and hia communicationa with the Home Gov ernment must be of the most confidential character, except in so far as he may see fit to make them known. But fully admitting this, still besides those communications of this character whicb he may, have and indeed at all times must have unrestrictedly with the Imperial Government, there should be and, if our Imperial relations are to be maintained, there must be — a further class of communicationa between the two govemmenta, aa to which the Governor ahould be advised by a minister whose particular duty it ahould be to manage affaira between the Mother Country and ouraelves, and to be in effect a'local ad- viaer, aa to auch matters, of the Imperial advisers of the Crown in England. In one word, we have got to develope the Imperial phase, so to apeak, of our provincial system ; to find the meana of keeping our policy and that of the Mother Country in harmony ; and if we do not, we cannot long keep up our con nection with the Empire. If thia were done — if we had in our aeveral provincial adminis trations aome member charged with thia de partment of the public service, as latterly we have come to have one charged with the cog nate subject of the militia and defence of the country — if these ministers of Imperial relations made periodical viaita home, ao aa there to meet one another and such members of tlie Imperial Government or others aa the Crown might charge to meet and confer with them — if there were thua organized, some aort of adviaory colonial council upon the precedent (ao far, of courae, as the analogy might bold) of the Council for Eaat Indian Affairs lately created — if, I say, something in thia way were done, then indeed we should be developing our Imperial relations in the proper direction, taking at least a step — the first and hardest — towards the framing of that Imperial feder- 527 ation of which we so stand in need. But there is no provision of that kind in the system here proposed; there is po apparent contemplation of a step of that kind in connection with this step. On the contrary, this step is all in tho wrong direction. We are here proposing to create in this part of the Queen's dominions a mere sub-federation, so to speak, tending, so far as it tends to anything, towards the exclusion of this kind of provision. This other machinery to which I have been allud ing, Mr. Speaker, if we had had it a fevi years ago, would have been of extreme useful ness. Suppose we had had something of that kind when the Rebellion Losses Bill was passed, when so much excitement was thereby created in the country. Suppose that then when the indignation of a large olass was con centrating iteelf against Lord Elgin for his supposed purpose of assenting to that bill, he could have said — " It is idle for you, as you must see, to require me to listen to you against the advice of my constitutional advisers ; but you know there is a tribunal at home, to which you may appeal from that ad-vice, where you will be heard and they, and from whioh you may be sure of justice if you have been aggrieved or injured here." Sir, if it had been possible for the Govemor General to have given such an answer at that time to the angry remonstrances of those who opposed that mea sure, the Parliament House would not have been burnt, nor would we have had to deplore the long train of consequent disturbances and troubles which then and ever since have brought so much discredit and mischief to the country. Take another ease. If such ma chinery had existed when the fishery treaty with France was entered into by the Imperial Government, conditioned upon the consent of Ne-wfoundland, no such anomalous proceeding could have taken place. For the representa tives of Newfoundland and of the rest of theae provinces would at once have shown the Im perial Government that it would not meet ap proval in that colony, nor indeed for that matter, anywhere else in British America. Great Britain would have been saved from en tering into a treaty that — as matters went — had to be disaUowed, with some discredit to the Empire, and some risk of a rupture of its friendly relations with a foreign power. Mr. SCOBLE— Does not the House of Commons afford that machinery ? Mr. DUNKIN— The House of Commons knows very Uttle, and cares much leaa, about our local affairs. (Hear, hear.) I say, if there had then been a Colonial Council at home, where representatives of the different provincial administrations might have met and advised with any of Her Majesty's minis ters, there would have been no difficulty. It would have disposed of any number of other questions more satisfactorily than they have been disposed of. The north-eastern bound ary question with the States, for instance, would never have been settled in a way so little accordant with our -views and interests ; and the question of the western boundary would have been settled sooner and better, also. Take another Ulustration. When the diffi culty arose between this country and Eng land about our tariff, when tbe Sheffield man ufacturers sought to create a feeling at home against us, becauae we, mainly to raiae re venue, placed dutiea higher than they liked on importationa of manufactured goods, if any such machinery had been in operation, no such wide-spread and mischievous misappre hension as to our acts and purposes could have arisen, as ever since has been prevalent in England, and even on the floor of the House of Commons. In fact, I repeat that without some such system, I do not see how our re lations with the Empire can be maintained on a satisfactory footing. It is just the want of it tbat is leading go many at home now to think us in a transition state towards separa tion and independence , when, in truth, we have such need to prove to them that we are in a transition state towards a something very different indeed — the precise antipodea of aeparation. (Hear, hear.) Sir, 1 waa aay ing that in this scheme there ia no auch con- aervative tendency aa tbis — nothing indica tive of a aet purpoae to develope, atrengthen and perpetuate our connection with the Em pire. That end we might indeed better gain without than with thia extra machinery of local federation ; for diaguise it how you may, the idea that underlies thia plan ia thia, and nothing else — that we are to create here a something — kingdom, viceroyalty, or princi pality — something that wiU soon stand in the same position towards the British Crown that Scotland and Ireland stood in before they were legislatively united with England ; a some thing having no other tie to the Empire than the one tie of fealty to tbe British Crown — a tie which in the cases, first, of Scotland, and then of Ireland, was found, when the pinch came, to be no tie at aU ; which did not restrain either Scotland or Ireland from courses so inconsistent with that of England as to have made it necessary that their relations should be radically changed, and a legislative 528 union formed in place of a merely nominal union. Suppose you do create here a kingdom or a principality, bound to the Empire by this shadow of a tie, the day of trial cannot be far distant, when this common fealty will be found of as little use in our case as it was in theirs ; when, in conaequence, the question will force itself onthe Empire and on us between entire separation on the one hand, and a legialative union on the other. But a legialative union of Britiah America with the United Kingdom muat be, in the opinion of, one may aay, every body at home and here, a aheer utter impoa- sibility ; and when the question ahall come to be whether we are ao to be merged in the United Kingdom or are to separate entirely from it, the answer can only be — " At what ever cost, we separate." Sir, I believe in my conscience that thia atep now propoaed ia one directly and inevitably tending to that other step ; and for that reaaon — even if I believed, as L do not, that it bid fair to anawer ever so well in tho other reapecta — becauae I am an Engliahman and hold to the connection with England, I mutt be against thia scheme. Sup poae now, on the other hand, tbia acheme were not to go into operation, there would be no earthly difficulty in working out, with thia Canada of oura, the other plan I have been auggesting for the placing of our relationa with the Empire on a better footing. Nor would there probably be any material difficulty either in bringing about a legislative union of the Lower Provincea, or in developing a very near approach to free trade, or indeed absolute free trade between us and them. I know there are thoae who aay that thia mock Federal union is neceasary in order to our getting that free trade with thoae provincea. Well, air, aa to that, all I care to aay ia thia, that for a number of yeara paat we have had a near approach to free trade with the United States — a foreign country ; and I imagine we can have it with the Lowor Provinces as well, without any very great difficulty. (Hear, hear. ) I aay again, we had far better bold firraly to the policy of thua maintaining and strengthening our union with the parent atate, than let ouraelvea, under whatever pretext, be drawn into thia other courae, which must in evitably lead to our aeparation from the Em pire. (Hear, hear.) But, Mr. Speaker, there ia atill another point of view in which thia acheme requirea to be conaidered. The people of the United States, when they framed their institutiona, were uot only starting as a nation — they were so atarting with no dan gerous neighbor-nation near them. If we are to take the step now urged upon us, no.t only are we to be something less than a nation, but we are to be this with a very dangerous neighbor-nation indeed. In this connection I may be aUowed to read a few words. The thirtieth resolution saya :— The General Government and Parliament shall have all powera necesaary or proper for perform ing the oblig-ationa of the Federated Provinces, a3°part of the British Empire, to foreign coun tries, arising under treaties between Great Bri tain and auch countries . It ia quite right that the General Govem ment ahould have auch powers ; but the very fact of our having to make a reservation of this kind, is an unpleasant recognition of the fact, in itself the reverae of encouraging, of the all darkening neighborhood of the United States. It is a most singular thing that we are required on the one hand to go into this union on this very account — for downright dread of the United States — and yet that on the other, we are as confidently assured of our own immense resources, are told that we are so wonderfully great and wonderfully rich, that we are something like — I don't know whether we are not — the third or fourth power, or maritime power, one or other, in the world. Really, I would not undertake to say how great we are, or are not, according to honor able gentlemen. They startle one. I had no idea how great we were ! (Hear, hear.) But yet, with all this wonderful magnificence and greatneaa, we are told we poaitively muat not, fbr very fear of the United States — for fear of their power — for fear of their hos tility, we muat not any longer atay diaunited, but must instantly enter into this so-called union. Juat aa if either their power or their hoatility towarda us — taking that to be their feeling — would be lessened by our doing so. Just as if they would not be only the more jealous of us and hostile to us, for our setting ourselvea up oatentatioualy aa their rivals. (Hear, hear.) In this connection, it does seem to mo that we have more than one question to answer. Many honorable gentle men appear to think they have done all that need be done, when they have answered to their own satisfaction the one question. What is the amount of our resources ? Starting with the vastness of our territory, they go into aU kinds of statements as to our trade and so forth, multiplying ton nage impossibly, adding together exports and importe — those of the Intercolonial trade and all. I only wonder they do not, on the same principle, calculate our inter-county and 529 our inter-township tradings, or our dealings between cities and country, adding exports and imports of course all round, and so proving that we have done more trade than all the rest of the world put together ; unless, indeed, they were to count up the trade of the rest of the world by the same rule ; and then to be sure they would find out that, after all, the rest of the world do more business, are more populous, richer, and stronger, than we. The question is not sim ply. What are our o-wn resources ? We must supplement it with a second — What are they comparatively? And especially, what are they as compared with those of the United Statea ? And while we are asking thia ques tion, we may as well not take it for granted as a fact, that the larger our country the strong er we must be. Suppose we are to be four miUions of people in a country as large as Europe or larger. I wiah to Heaven we were four millions of people — with all the adjacent unexposed territory you will — but in a coun try smaUer th-m England. Why, sir. New England alone has more population and re sources, all told, than the Lower Provinces and Lower Canada together ; and with het- compactness and advantage of position, she could alone, presumably, beat both. Hon. Atty. Gen. CARTIER— New Eng land stronger than the Lower Provinces and the two Canadas? Mr. DUNKIN— I did not say that ; I said stronger than Lower Canada and the Lower Pro-vinces. Hon. Atiy. Gen. CARTIER- Itis about the same in population, two and a half mil lions, while we have more shipping than they. Mr. DUNKIN— I fear that if we were to come into collision, a good deal of ahipping might change hands. At any rate, at the best, we should have a pretty tight time of it. (Hear, hear.) An Hon. MEMBER— Better put a bold face on it. Mr. DUNKIN— Yes, yes. " Brag is a good dog, but Holdfast is a better." Then, there is the State of New York, which would certainly be more than a match for Upper Canada — and New York is but one of several states conterminous with Upper Canada. Who in his tenses, sir, thinks of these provinces as able, of themselves, to bold their own against New England, New York and the rest of the tier of states along our frontier ? And yet we are talked to as if Confederation were about to make us the 68 third or fourth power, or maritime power in the world! But what I was saying more particularly was, that too much of territory, and above all too much of exposed frontier, does not increase our strength, but lessens it. Ours is the ' long thin line of red," which is not so well able to receive a charge as the solid square. Col. haultain was understood to signify dissent to some of the propoaitiona here advanced. Mr. DUNKIN— If the hon. member for Peterborough thinka tl at in a military point of view, the length andnarrowneas of our ter ritory adda to our atrength— if he thinka we are the stronger for our length of frontier, I would respectfully recommend him toattend one of our military achools (Laughter.) But aerioualy, air, if we are to compare our icsourcea with thoae of the United Statea, we ahall find, as Ihavesaid, that theirs are unmistakably, and beyond count, greater. CoL. HAULTAIN— Than the British Erapire? Mr. DUNKIN— That is not the com parison. We are continually h.earing of what Confederation is to do for ourselves, how it ia going to make us a groat power in the world. It ia going to do nothing of the kind. But again — aud here ia a third quea tion that in thia connection we have got to anawer — howia the temper of the United Statea going to be affected, on the one hand, by the policy here urged on u-*, of what I may call hoatile independent effort — effort made on our part, with the avowed object of setting ouraelvea up aa a forraidable power against them ; or on the other hand, by a policy such as I luye been urging, of un obtrusive development of our inatitutiona iu connection with the Britiah Empire ? In which of the two caaea are they likely to be the more amiable, or, (which ia perhapa more to the point), the leas aggresaive or practically unamiable, aa our neighbora ? Beaidea, there comea up atill another queation. What is to be the attitude of Great Britain under either of theae two auppoaitiona ? Aa I have ¦said, the question is, firat, as to our own reaourcea; next, aa to the comparative re sourcea of the United Statea ; then, aa to their attitude and temper towarda us, upon one or other of these two suppositiona ; then, as to the attitude and temper of Great 'Britain, in reference to each of these suppo sitiona ; and lastly, as to the reaction (so to speak) upon ourselves, of these respective attitudes of the two countries in either case. 530 If, sir, we are thinking to give other people the idea, that by uniting ourselves together in any such way as this, we are going to make ourselves able to take care of ourselvea, we are merely humbugging ourselves, and try ing to humbug othera. The people of the United Statea are atronger than we are, and are known so to be ; and if we are to hold our own againat or beaide them, it can only be by remaining strongly, avowedly, lastingly, attached to Great Britain. 'Thia ia the firm conclusion I have come to ; and I believe it ia the conclusion to which any one who will give his thoughtful attention to tho subject must corae alao. And I must and do protest against the notion which seema to prevail among the advo catea of thia acheme, that somehow or other it is going ao to increaae our power, aa to make ua a formidable neighbor of the United Statea. The danger ia, of its making that people more, jealous of us and more hostile towarSs us than before. And if, besidea that, it ia going to give them and the people of England, or either of them, the idea that aa a reault of it we are to care leaa for tbe connection with the Empire than before — that under it we are before long to go alone, it ia going to commit ua to about the aaddeat fatal mia take that a people ever made. (Hear, hear.) Mr. Speaker, I muat .apologize for the length to which I have wearied the Houae. (Criea of " Go on !") I have gone through, aa well aa I could, the leading pointa of my argumenta, so far ; and have indicated a number of pointa of contraat between thia system and that ofthe Unired States. I trust I have not been too prolix in my attempta to shew that the Constitution now offered for our acceptance preaenta machinery entirely unlike that of the United Statea, and entirely unlike that of the Britiah Empire — that it 13 inconaistent with either — that ao far from ita proflei-ing to ua aU the advantagea of both and the disadvantagea of neither, it rather presents to ua the disadvantagea of both and the advantagea of neither; that ao far from its tending to improve our relations either with the Mother Country or with the United States, it holds out to us verv little prospect indeed for the future, in either of these reapecta. (Hear, hear.) I shall not attempt to review my argument on theae heada, fbr I do not think that to anyone at all willioi; to refiect, what I have advanced can require to be proved more fully. If I am not entirely wrong, the only way in whioh thia propoaed machinery can be got to work at all, will be by an aggrega tion, so to apeak, in the firat Federal Cabinet, of the leading men of the different exiating provincial adminiatrations. The attempt muat be made to combine the six majorities, ao aa to carry on an adminiatration in har mony with the understood wishes of the six several provinces, irrespectively of every consideration of principle, or of sound far- seeing policy. I do not soe how, although this thing may be done at starting, it can be carried^ on — I was going to say, for any length of time — I might say, for any time, long or short, unless by a system of the most enormous jobbery and corruption. Whenever any sore spot shall show itself — and we may rely on it, there will be more than one such show itself very soon — then feuds and divisions of the worst sort will follow, and the machinery will no longer work. Unfortunately, there are in it none of those facilities for harmonious workino-s none of those nice adaptations by which the stronger power is so tempered as not to fall too harshly on the weaker. Just so long as the majorities in all the different provinces work cordially together, well and good. But they cannot possibly work harmoniously together long; and so soon as they come into collision, there comes trouble, and with the trouble, the fabric is at an end. (Hear, bear.) For myself, I am decidedly of opinion that our true interest is to hold this machinery over, to consider it carefully, to see if something better cannot be devised. (Hear, hear.) I am sure there can. But inatead of that, we are called upon emphati cally and earneatly at once to throw aside all conaiderationa to the contrary, and to adopt tbe measure ; and we are at the same time told, in unmistahSble language, that we posi tively cannot— muat not— ahall not— change a aingle word of it. Various considerations are urged upon ua for thia unaeemly haate ; conaiderationa connected with the attitude of the United Statea, with Great Britain, with the Lower Provinces, and with our own domestic affairs. With the permission of the House, I will touch as briefly as I can on these four classes of considerations, and then cease longer to weary the House. I begin, then, with the considerations connected with the attitude of the United States, which are urged upon us as reaaona why we should rush into this meaaure of Confederation. To some extent I have already incidentally 531 touched on these in another connexion ; but they call for some further notice, and in giving it them, I will try not to repeat myself. Judging from much of the language which we have heard on the floor of this Houae, one would auppoae we muat be on the verge of a war with the United States. For my part, I believe nothing of the kind. But if we were, would it be at all the right thing for us to abstain from the more pressing ques tions of our defences and the organization of the militia, and to be instead discussing here these plans of a Federal Union, Provincial Constitutions, and I know not what ? These we are called upon, I admit, to discuaa in a tremendous hurry, to settle off-hand, in workable or unworkable shape, nobody seem ing to know or to care which, everybody professing to hope that ail will come right in the end, whether he thinks it will or not. But, sir, I say again, if war were imminent with the United States, the one question for us would be tbe state of our defences, the organization of our militia, how much Eng land can do for us, how much we can do for ourselves, how much England and we, each of us, are to undertake to do together. That is not the question at the present time at all, and I therefore take it that the outcry raised in connection with this scheme, about our defences and the militia, is just so much buncombe. (Hear, hear.) If honorable gentlemen opposite believed in it, I am cer tain that the pressing question would be taken up first. Further, if such danger were not even pretty far off, I for one would be disposed to think that the tak ing up now of this other class of ques tions comes a little late in the day. With any near, real danger of war with the United Statea, it would be quite too late for ua to be aitting here, gravely diacuaaing a political union, to be conaummated montha hence, at soonest, and then only to lead to the construction of railways which will take years, and defences which cannot be put in order for months or years, and to future developments of all kinds, which it wiU take years on years to carry out. If war, I say, is imminent, these ulterior undertakings, though begun now, would be begun all too late. Whenever there is such danger, our defence will not be found in the making of federal or other constitutions, or in paper display of any kind, but muat be found in the atrong arms and determined courage of our people, responding earnestly to the caU of the Mother Country, and backed with all the power she can bring to bear upon tbo conflict. Supposing that time come, we have plenty of governing machinery for that defence. We do not need, in order to it, a viceroy and court, ani lieutenant- governors, and all the complicated political apparatus of this acheme. We could get along juat aa well under our present ayatem, and I think better. Certainly, if modified aa I have indicated it might be — if improved by the better development of our relationa to the Empire — the aystem whioh would thence result would be aa good as that here offered for our acceptance — indeed, would be much better. But, sir, the real danger is not of war with the United States. It is from what I may call their pacific hostility — from trouble to be wrought by them within thia country — trouble to arise out of refusal ofl reciprocity — repeal of tbe bonding syatem — - cuatom-houae annoyancea — passport annoy ances; from their fomenting difficultiea here, and taking advantage of our local jealouaiea; from the multiplied worries they may cause us by a judicious alternation of bullying and coaxing, the thousand, inci dents which may easily be made to happen if things are not going on quite well in this country, and the people and govemment of the States are minded to make us feel the conae quencea of our not getting on quite ao well aa we might. Whether the union of the Statea ia reatored or not, thia kind of thing can go on. The danger ia, that either the whole United States, or thoae portiona of the United States whioh are near ua, and whioh are reaUy atronger than we are, and enterpriaing enough and am- bitioua enough, and not very fond of ua, and not at aU fond of the 51other Couutry, not at all unwUling to atrike a blow at her and to make ua aubaervient to tbeir own interest and ambition — the danger is, I say, thatthe United States, or those portions of the United States ' near us, may avail themselves of every oppor tunity to perplex us, to embroU us in trouble, to make us come within the disturbing in fluences of their strong local attraction. — Now, to pretend to tell me that the United States or the Northern States, whichever you please, are going to bs frightened, from a policy of that kind, by our taking upon our selves great airs, and forming ourselves into a grand Confederation, is to tell me that their people are, like the Chinese, a people to be frightened by loud noises and ugly grimaces. (Laughter.) I do not believe they are. They 532 are uot to be frightened by any union we can make here. They have among them politi cians, to say the least, quite as bold, shrewd and astute as any we bave here. The dan ger will just be that of our having agitation of our own going on here, and internal troubles, while these annoyances on fhe part of our neighbors across the border are being multi plied upon ua ; and that England may at the same time be feeling that the tio between her and us ia more or lesa relaxed, and that wrong and humiliation put upon ua do not concern her 80 much aa they would have done when our connection with her waa practicaUy more intimat.e. In and before 1840, after the troubles which had been distracting Canada were put down, it was declared, and perfectly well underatood, that the Imperial Government waa aimply determined to hold on to the con nection with thia country. And tbe know- ledtre of that expresaed determination gua ranteed ua a pretty long term of comparative feedom from annoyancea and trouble of the kind to which I have been referring. If, now, a different idea ia to prevail — if the no tion ia to go abroad that we are, by creating ourselves into a new nationality, to be some what leaa connected with the Empire than these provincea heretofore have been, then I do apprehend that a very different future is before ua, and that in all aorta of waya, by vexationa of all kinds, by the fomenting of every trouble within our own bordera, whether originating from abroad, or only reacted on from abroad, we ahall be exposed to dangera of the moat aerioua kind. And, therefore, ao far from aeeing in our relations towarda the Uui ted Statea, any reaaon why we should assume a position of aerai-independence, an attitude of seeming defiance towarda them, I find in them the strongeat reason why, even while regard ing, or affecting to regard them aa little as posaible, we should endeavor to make all the world aee that we are trying to strengthen our union with the Mother Country — that we care far less about a mere union with neighboring provinces, which will frighten no one in the leaat, but that we aro determined to raaintain at all hazarda and draw closer, that connection with the Mother Country which alone, ao long aa it laats, can Imd will protect ua from all aerioua aggreaaioii. (Hear, hear.j But we are told that, on account of a variety of considerations connected with the state of opinion at home, and out of deference to that opinion, we muat poaitively carry out this scheme. WeU, there are two or three ques tions to be answered here. What is that opinion at home ? What is it worth ? And what sort of lesson does it teach us ? There are some distinctions which, in my judgraent, must bo drawn with reference to this. There are different phases of opinion prevailing at home, which must be taken into account. I have great reapect for some home opiniona. Many thinca they know in England much better than we do. Some things they do not know so well. They do not know so much about ourselves as we do ; and they do not occupy their minds so much with that claaa of questiona which relate merely to our interesta, as we at any rate ought to do ; and on these matters I am not sure that we ahall act wiaely if we yield at once to the first ex presaiona of opinion at home. But now, air, what is the opinion at homo, cr rather, what are the opiniona entertained al home, with reference to thia meaaure ? Of course, I do not intend to weary the Houae with a long detailed statement on this subject. But I muat say this — and I do not think th-at any one who knowa anything at all about it wUl contradict what I state — there is at home a considerably numerous, and much more loud- speaking than numeroua, class of politicians who do not hesitate to say that it is not for the interest of England to keep her colonies at all. Mr. SCOBLE— Not numerous. Mr. DUNKIN— WeU, I think they are ra ther numerous and pretty influential, and they make a good deal of stir ; and some of them being in pretty high places, there is danger that their views may exercise a good deal of influence upon public opinion at home. There are raany influences at work at home, tending to the prevalence of the idea that the sooner the colonies leave the Mother Country,- the better — and especially that the sooner these colonies leave the Mother Country, the better. There is a very exaggerated notion at home of danger to the peace of the Empire from the maintenance of British supremacy in this part of the world. That iathe fact ; aud there ia no use in our shutting our eyea to it. We may just aa well take it, uncomfortable and hard fact aa it mtiy bo. If wc choose to tell our aelves it ia not tho fact, we are only hum bugging ourselvea. (Hear, ¦ hear.) Thatis one point, as regards public opinion in England. Another is, as to the appreciation, at home, of this particular scheme. I take it, that what wo are told on this head by those who urge this scheme upon us, about opinion ;it home, amounts to this — that at home this soheme is regarded 533 with very great favor, that we are ex pected to adopt it, and that if we do not adopt it, it will be the better for us with reference to home public opinion. Well, the questions for us are : What is the opinion at home about this scheme ? What is the opin ion entertained in high quarters as to its goodness or badness ; and if there is an opin ion in favor of the soheme being adopted, from what considerations does that opinion, to a great extent, prevail ? I am not going into these questions minutely, but I must be al lowed to make a remark or two as to the opinion expresaed by Her Majeaty'a Govern ment with regard to thia scheme. I have al ready, to some extent, alluded to the dispatch of the Colonial Secretary ; but in this con nection, I must allude to it a little further. (Hear, hear.) It is clear from that dis patch that the Colonial Secretary wrote under these impresaions : first of all, he was under the idea that this scheme had been drawn up by the repreaentativea of every province, choaen by the respective governors, without diatinction of party. That was not quite the caae. There were repreaentativea from the two leading partiea in each of the other pro vinces, but it was not so as regarded Lower Canada. (Hear, hear.) The Colonial Se cretary was, besides, evidently under the im pression that when these gentlemen came to gether, they gave the matters before them the most mature deliberation. He saya : — " They have conducted their deliberationa with patient sagacity, and have arrived at unanimous con clusions on questions involving many difficul ties." The "patient sagacity" was exercised for seventeen or nineteen days, and the " un animous conoiuaions " were, after aU, certainly not uuauiraoua. The Secretary goea on to .say : — Her Majeaty's Govemment have given to your despatch aud to the resolutions of the Confer- eace, their most deliberate consideration. They iiaVe regarded them as a whole, and as having l)een designed by those who framed them, to establish as complete aud perfect a union of the whole, into one government, as the circumstances of the caae, aud a due consideration of existing interests, would admit. They accept them, there- lore, as being in the deliberate judgment ofthose best qualified to decide upon the subject, the hest framework of a measure to be passed by the Imperial Parliament for attaining that most desirable result. Her Majeaty's Government thus take for- granted a " deliberate " examination, which most unquestionably never has been given to this crude project. Now, with all this, with the impreaaion that men of all partiea had here acted in combination, when in truth they have done no such thing ; that patient sagac ity had been expended on the framing of the scheme, when in truth there was nothing of the kind ; that the conclusions were unani mously arrived at, which again was not tbe fact ; with all this. Her Majesty's Government have only come to the point of giving a very general, and, as any one who reads the dis patch can see, a very qualified approval of the scheme. First, an objection is raised as to the want of accurate determination of the limits between the authority of the Central and that of the local legislatures. I will not read the words, as I read them last night, but no one can read the dispateh without seeing that the language of the Colonial Secretary on that point is the language of diplomatic disap proval. (Hear, hear.j Though he gives a gen eral approval, he criticises and evidently does not approve. He sees an intention, but calls attention to the fact that that intention is not clearly and explicitly expressed. He then goes on and makes another objection — the financial. His language is this : — Her Majesty's Govemment cannot but expresa the earnest hope, that the arrangements which may be adopted in thia respect may not he of such a nature as to iucrease — at least in any con aiderable degree— the whole expenditure, orto make any material addition to the taxation, and thereby retard the internal industry, or tend to impose new burdens on the commerce of the country. The hope that it will not be is the diplomatic way of hinting a fear that it may be. When Her Majesty's Govemment is driven to " hope" that these arrangements will not in crease in any conaiderable degree tbe whole expenditure, or make any material addition to taxation, and thereby retard internal indus try, or tend to impose new burdens on the commerce of the country, it is perfectly clear that they see that in the scheme which makes them tolerably sure it will. And then we have a third objection : — Her Majeaty'a Government are anxioua to lose no time in conveying to you their general ap proval of the proceedings of the Conference. There are, however, two provisions of great im portance which aeem to require reviaion. The first of these ia the proviaion contained in the 44th resolution, -with reapect to the exerciae of the prerogative of pardon. That is emphatically declared to be entirely 534 wrong. And then comes the fourth objection : " The second point which Her Majesty's Gov ernment desire should be reconsidered" — and this phrase is positively, so far as words can give it, a command on the part of Her Ma jesty's Government that it sball be recon sidered : — The second point which Her Majesty's Govern ment desire should be reconsidered ia the consti tution of the Legislative Council. They appre ciate the considerations which have influenced the Couference in determining the mode in which this body, so important to the constitution of the Legislature, should be compoaed. But it appeara to them to require further consideration whether, if the members be appointed for life, and their number be fixed, there will be any sufficient means of restoring harmony between the Legis lative Council and the popular Assembly, if it sh.iU ever unfortunately happen that a decided difference of opinion shall arise between them. These two pointa, relating to the prerogative of the Crown and the Constitution of the Upper Chamber have appeared to require distinct and separate notice. Is not that a pretty emphatic dissent ? Questions of minor consequence and matters of detailed arrangement may properly be reserved for a future time, when the provisions of the bill intended to be submitted to the Imperial Parlia ment shall come under consideration. So, air, there are more objectiona atill whioh the Colonial Secretary haa not atated. He givea a general aanction, but specifies four matters, two of which he diatinctly aaya muat be altered, and the other two he doea not ap prove of, and he aaya that other matters — too numerous, I suppoae, to apeoify— muat be reaerved for remark at a future time. Well, juat at the time that thia deapatoh made ita appearance, there waa an article in the London Times, a paaaage from which I will read in , thia connection, though it may aeem to bear on a somewhat different branch of the question \ from tbat with which I am just more parti cularly dealing. The London Times, referring to this despatch, makes use of these expres sions, and I beg the attention of the House to them, because they give the key-note of a great deal of tho public opinion at home with reference to this matter : — ¦ It is true we are not actually giving up the American colonies, — nay, the despatch we are ,f; quoting does not contain the slightest hint that ¦ such a possibility ever crossed the mind of the ',, writer ; but yet it is perfectly evident — and there '¦'( is no use in concealing the fact — that the Con federation movement considerably diminishes the difficulty which would be felt by the colonies in separating from the Mother Country. Even now the North American Confederation repreaenta a state formidable from the numbera of ita hardy and energetic population, and capable, if ao united, of vigorously defending the territories it possesses. A few yeara will add greatly to that population, and place Canada, Hochelaga, Acadia, or by whatever other name the Con federacy may think fit to caU itself, quite out ofthe reach of invasion or conquest. Such a state would not only be atrong aga-nst the Mother Country under the imposaible aupposition ofour seeking to coerce it by force, but it might be aeparated from ua without incurring the disgrace of leaving a amall and helpless community at the mercy of powerful and warlike neighbors. Here, then, ia the aomewhat leas diplomatic utterance ofthe Times, on the occasion ofthe appearance of this despatch. It is perfectly true that no hint was given officially, when this scheme was sent home, that it contem plated separation. Perfectly true, that in the answer there is no hint that separation is con templated. But it is perfectly true, also, that the leading journal instantly sees in it, and seizes at, the possibility — first, of its greatly facilitating our going — and, secondly, of its greatly facilitating, on the part of the Mother Country, the letting of ua go. I ahall come back to this branch of the aubject preaently, after I shall have quoted from a much more important expression of public opinion than any article in the Times. Meantime, I must refer to thepanguage of Her Majesty's Speech from the Throne. It has been read during this debate already, and has been read as if it contained tbe most emphatic approval posaible of thia whole acheme — so emphatic an approval, that even to assume to discuss it now would seem to amount almost to treason. Thia language, of courae, it ia needleaa to aay, ia that of Her Majeaty'a Imperial adviaera, and ia to be read in connection with what Her Majesty'a Government have aaid about thia plan in the Colonial Secretary's des patch — that before it ia paaaed into an enactment, it will require a good deal of reviaion. We may be told here that the document before ua ia a treaty, on which not a line or letter of amendment can be made by ua. But Her Majeaty's Government clearly underatand that they are not bound by it, and that they are to alter it as much aa they pleaae. They won't give the pardon ing power to theae lieutenant-governora ; they won't conatitute the Legialative Council in thia way ; tbey won't look with indifference to the incurring of unheard-of expenses, and the hampering of commerce whicb they 535 consider to be implied in this scheme. No, they are to look into this thing, to look into the details of what they evidently think to be a pretty crude scheme ; while we, who are most interested, are required by our local rulers not to look into it at all, but just to accept it at their hands aa a whole. The language addressed from the Throne to the Imperial Parliament is this : " Her Majesty has had great satis faction in giving Her sanction" — to what? — " to the meeting of a conference of dele gatea from the several North American Provinces, who, on invitation from Her Majesty's Governor General, assembled at Quebec." Certainly; we knew that before ; they assembled without Her Majesty's sanc tion, but they got-her aanction afterwarda to their having so asaembled. " Theae dele gates adopted resolutions having for their object a closer union of those provinces under a central govemment. If those reso lutions shall be approved by the provincial legislatures, a bill will be laid before you for carrying this important measure into effect" — not for giving full effect to the details of this scheme, but tor carrying the measure — the closer union — in the shape the Imperial Government may give it, into effect. That is all. (Hear, hear.) Take this along with the despatch of the Colonial Secretary. If it is a declaration that this thing ia a treaty, whioh may not be amended by us without flying in the face of Her Majeaty's Govern ment, I do not underatand the meaning of worda. (Hear, hear.) In connection with the Speech from the Throne, we had, the other night, some notice taken, on the floor ofthis House, of language used in discuss ing the address in the Imperial Parliament. Lords Claremont, Houghton, Gran-ville and Derby had something to say in respect of this acheme in the House of Lords ; as also, Mr. Hanbury Tracy in the House of Commons. I do not attach great weight to what was there said, because there really was little said any way, and that little could not indicate any great amount of knowledge upon the subject treated. However, I wiU quote first what the mover of the address, the Earl of Claremont, said. After refer ring to the war in New Zealand, he went on : — My Lords, although theae operations in India, New Zealand, and Japan, are mattera of more or lesa intereat or concern to the nation, and, aa such, are fully deaerving of notice, yet they are amall in comparison to the importance of the probable change in the constitution of our North American Colonies. Since the declaration of independence by the colonies, siuce known aa the United States of America, so great a scheme of aelf-government, or one ahadowing forth ao many similar and possible changes, has not occurred. Now, I cannot read this sentence with out aaking what analogy there is between this project and the declaration of inde pendence. Why should these resolutions suggest to any one's mind the declara tion of indepondence ? Did the gentlemen who signed these resolutions in order to authenticate them — pledge their lives and fortunes, and I don't know what beaidea, to anything, or riak anything, by appending their aignatures to the document ? Was it a great exercise of political heroism? Why, che men who. signed the declaration of independence qualified themselves in the eyes of the Imperial Govemment for the pleasant operationa of heading and hanging. They knew what they were about. They were iaauing a rebel declaration of war. But thia ia a piece of machinery, on the face of it at leaat, to perpetuate our connection with the Mother Country ! Why then doea it suggest the idea that so great a scheme of self-gov ernment, or one shadowing forth so many similar and posaible changes, " hardly ever before occurred ?" It is because there is, underlying the apeaker's thought, juat that idea of the anti-colonial achool in England, tbat we are going to alip away from our con nection with the Mother Country ; and in this respect, therefore, it seems to him that it ia like the declaration of independence. The re maining sentence indicates a curious misap prehension as to the preaent poature of this question. " If the delegates of these several colonies finally agree to the reaolutiona framed by their committee, and it theae reaolutiona be approved by the several legis latures of the several colonies. Parliament will be asked to consider and complete this federation of our Northern American pos sessions." The noble lord, the mover of the Address, seems to take the resolutions for a mere report of a committee which (on their way here) had yet to be submitted to the consideration of the delegates ! Next, I turn to the language of Lord Houghton, the seconder of the Address ; and from his Ups too, we have an almost distinct utterance of the idea of our coming independence. He says : — 536 That impulse which inchnes small statea to bind themselves together for Ihe purpoae of mutual protection and for the dignity of empire, haa ahewn itaelf in two remarkable examplea, of which I may be permitted to say a few words. In Europe it has manifeated itself in the case of Italy, which ia not, indeed, alluded to in any part of Her Majeaty's speech, because it is an accom plished fact of European history. A convention has lately taken place between the Emperor of the French and the King of Italy, in which Eng land can take no other iuterest than to hope that it may redound to the prosperity of the one and the honor of the other. At auy rate, one great advantage haa been accomplished. With hia capital in the cen1;re of Italy it is no longer pos sible to talk of Victor Emmanuel as King of Piedmont. He is King of Italy, or nothing. On the other side of the Atlantic the same impulse — [that same impulse, which, in the case of Italy, the speaker characterizes as aiming at the dignity of empire] — the same impulse had man ifested itself in the proposed, amalgamation of the northern provinces of British America. I heartily concur in all — [the all being as we have just seen, not muchj^that haa been said by my noble friend the mover of this ad dress in his laudation of that project. It is, my lords, a most interesting contemplation that that project has arisen, aud has been approved by Her Majesty's Government. It is certainly contrary to what might be considered the old maxima of governmeut in conuection wilh the coloniea, that we should here express — and that the Crown itself should express — satisfaction at a measure which tends to bind together, iu wlmost independent power, our colo nies in North America. We do still believe that though thus banded together, they will recognize the value of British connection, and that while they will be safer in thia amalgamation, we ahall be as aafe in their fealty. The measure will no doubt, my lords, require much prudent considera tion and great attention to provincial suscepti bilities. I repeat, Mr. Speaker, there ia in thia q.iotation a aecond pretty-plainly-expreased auticipation of our nearly approaohing inde pendence. We are auppoaed, by one of theae noble lorda, to be taking a atep analo- goua to that taken by the authors of the Declaration of Independence; and by the other, to be moved by the aame impulae of empire that haa been leading to the eatab- lishraeiit ofthe Kingdom of Italy. Mr. SCOBLE— It ia a caae of want of iuformation. Mr. DUNKIN— Yea, I have no doubt it ia a case of want of correct information, and not tho only one of ita kind. And now, sir, for Lord Derby's remarka, which alao have been quoted here. Certainly, they are in a different, and to my mind a more satis factory, tone ; but they are auggesti-ve, for all that, of an idea that is unwelcome. After remarking on certain passages indicative, in his view, of unfriendly feeling on the part of the United States towards Great Britain and towards us — their threatened abrogation of the reciprocity treaty, arming on the lakes, and so forth — Lord I)erby says :— • Under these circumstancea I aee with additional satisfaction — [Meaning of, course, though cour tesy may have disallowed the phrase, " less dis satisfaction," for he certainly did not see those other mattera with any aatisfaction at all] — I see with additional satisfaction the announce ment of a contemplated im- ortant step. I mean the proposed h'ederation of the British American Pro vinces. (Hear, hear.) I hope I may regard that Federation aa a measure tending to constitute a power atrong enough, with the aid of thia country, which I trust may never he withdrawn from those provinces, to acjuire an importance which, separately, they cou'd not obtain. (Hear, hear.) If I saw in thia Federation a deaire to separate from this country, I ahould think it a matter of much more doubtful policy and advantage ; but I perceive with aatisfaction, that no such wish is entertained. Perhapa it ia premature to discuss, at present, reaolutiona not yet submitted to the different provincial legislatures, hut I hope f see in the terms of that Federation an earnest desire on the part of the provinces to maintain for themselves the blessing of the connection with thia country, and a determined aud deliberate preference for monarchical over republican insti tutions.(Hear, hear.) Now, wbat I have to =ay is thia, that while I think no man ought to find fault with any of the aentimenta here uttered, they are yet the utterances of a stitesmau who betrays in thoae utterances at least, aa they sound to me, a certain amount of scarcely-concealed apprehension. When a man in the poaition of Lord Derby, maater of tbe whole art of expression, speaks at once so hypothetically and so guardedly, falls back upon " I hope I may regard," " I trust may never be," " I hop>e I see," and so forth, one feela that there ia an under-current of thought, not half concealed by auch exprea aiona, to the effect that there ia too much danger of the very thinga so hoped and trusted againat coming to paaa at no very diatant period. Hon. Atty. Gen. CARTIER— I see the reverae of that. (Hear, hear.) Mr. DUNKIN— Well, the hon. gentle man aeea differently from what I do. If there had been no doubt whatever in the mind of Lord Derby, as to our want of strength, the growth of the anti-colonial party at home, and the tendency of this 537 scheme towards separation, his hope and trust to the contrary, would either have been unuttered, or would have been uttered in another tone. I am well enough satisfied that Lord Derby himself has not the most reraote idea of falling in with the views of the so-called colonial rrformers in England, who desire to see the colonies pay for every thing or be cast off; but he knowa the hold that their viewa have gained at home, and he apeaka accordingly. And there ia no doubt, sir, that thia feeling haa been got up in Eng land to an extent very much to be regretted. In this connection I have yet to notice some paasages — and I shall deal witb them as briefly as I can — from the very important article I quoted last night, which is contained in the E linburgh Review for January, and which, I am sorry to say, expresses thia feel ing in the strongest possible form. But before citing them, I am bound to saythat I by no means believe tbe views they express are universally or even generally entertained at home. I do believe, though, tbat tbey are entertained by many, and that there is much danger of their doing avast deal of mischief. That they are loudly avowed, does not admit of doubt ; and when we find them set forth in the pages of so influential an organ of opinion as the Edinburgh Review, the case assumes a very serious aspect. There are other passages in the article to the same effect as those I am about to read, and which might, perhaps, be quoted with advantage, did time allow. Well, here is one occurring early in the article : — There are problems of colonial policy the solu tion of which cannot, without peril, be indefinitely delayed; and though Imperial England ia doing her best to keep up appearancea in the manage ment of her five and forty dependenciea, the political linka which once bound them to each other and to their common centre are evidently worn out. Misgivings haunt the public mind as to the stability of an edifice which seems to be founded on a reciprocity of deception, and only to be shored up for the time by ohaolete and meaningleaa traditiona. Wben an utterance like thia finds its way into the pages of the Edinburgh Review, a review which more than almost any other may be held to speak in the name of a large class of the ablest statesmen of England, we have reason to ask what it is all tending to. I never in my life felt more pain in reaJing anything political, than I felt in reading this article ; and I never discharged a more painful duty than I am endeavoring to^qis- charge at this moment, in commenting on it. But truth is truth, and must be told. A little farther on, the same writer pro ceeds : — It ia not unnatural that the deaire to maintain a connection with the power and wealth of the Mother Country should he stronger on the aide of the coloniea than it ia on that ofthe Biitiah public, for they owe almoat everything to us, and we receive hut little from them. Moreover, the existing svstem of colonial government enables them to combine all the advantages of local in dependence with the atrength and dignity of a great empire. But the Imperial Government iu the meantime has to decide, not as of old, whether Great Britain is to tax the colonies, but to what extent the colonies are to he per mitted to tax Great Britain — a question which is daily becoming more urgent aud less eaay of solution.Further on, the writer goea on to say : — It might puzzle the wiseat of our atateamen, if he were challenged to put hia finger on any single item of material advantage resultinj: to ourselves from our dorainions iu British North America, which cost us at thia moment about a million sterling a year. They do no auch thing ; but that ia neither here nor ihere. Then follow theae aen- f encea, more galling still : — Retainera who will neither give nor accept notice to quit our service, must, it is assumed, be kept for our service. There are, nevertheless, special and exceptional difficultiea which beset us in thia portion of our vaat field of empire. Nearly a page followa of description of what theae difficultiea are, being mainly those arising out of apprehended dangers from the United States, and thereon is based this ob servation : — It is acarcely aurpriaing that any project which may offer a prospect of escape frora a politic"! situation ao undignified aud unsatisfactory should be hailed with a cordial welcome hy all parties concerned. But one meaning can be put upon all this. In the opinion of the writer, England doe's not believe that these provinces are worth anything to her, while the connection with the Mother Country is worth all to us; and she would hail with aatiafaction any way of eacape from the obligationa and dangers that we are aaid to cast upon her. I go on a littlo further, and I find what are his views aa to the undertakinga that, in con nection with this project, we are expected to assume. "WThat I am next quoting' form| 588 a foot note; but a foot note is often, like a lady's postscript, more important than the text of the letter : — A very important question, on which theso papers afford no information, is that relating to the future condition of thoae territoriea and de pendenciea ofthe Crown in North America, which are not included within the present boundaries of the five provinces. We allude more particularly to the territories now held by the Hudson's Bay Company, under the Crown, by charter or lease. The Crown is doubtless bound to take care that the interest of its grantees — [it never seema to have occurred to our friend that we, too, ai-e granteea] — are not prejudiced hy these changes ; but, on the other hand, an English trading com pany is ill qualified to carry on the government and pi 0 vide for the defence of a vast and inac cessible expanse of continental territory. One would think ao, seeing that it is juat thia territory which thia writer has been telling ua England shrinks herself from defending : — Probably, the best and most equitable solution would he the cession of the whole region to the Northern Federation for a fair indemnity — [pro bably enough, from a point of view not oura — (hear, hear)] — and this would lead to the execu tion of the Gieat Northern Pacific Railway, under the auspices of the Federal power. Would it ? (Hear, hear, and laughter.) Hon. Atty, Gen. CARTIER— Hear ! hear ! Hon. Mr. HOLTON— la that the policy? Hon. Atty. Gen. CARTIER— Hear ! hear! Mr. DUNKIN— a little further on, in the article, I find some amplification of thia grand programme : — The result of these proposals, if carried into effect, would be the creation of a new state in North America, still retaining the name of a British dependency, comprising an area about equal to that of Europe, a population of about four millions, with an aggregate revenue in ster ling of about two millions and a half, and carrying- on a trade (including exports, imports and inter colonial commerce) of about twenty-eight millions sterling per annum. If we consider the relative positions of Canada and the Maritime Provinces— the former possessing good harbors, but no back country, the former an unlimited supply of cereala, but few minerala ; the latter an unlimited supply of iron and coal, but little agricultural produce. The commercial advai - tages of union between atatea so circumstanced, are too obvious to need comment. The completion of the Intercolonial Railway, and the probable annexation of the fertile portiona of the North- Weatern territory to the new Confederation, form a portion only of the probable conaequencea of ita formation, but in which Europe and the world at large will eventually participate. When the Hon. Mr. McPOUGALL — The hon. gentleman ahould do juatice to the reviewer. He leaves out an important passage. Mr. dunkin- What is it ? Hon. Mr. McDOUGALL— After the word " formation," the following words are given : — " The benefits of which will not be limited to the colonies alone, but," &c. Taken witb the context, these words are important. Hon, Mr. MoGEE— Hear ! hear ! Mr. dunkin — An ironical cheer-is an easy thing to raise; but I fancy my charac ter hardly warrants the insinuation that I would dishonestly falsify a quotation. I wrote out these extracts hurriedly, the one procurable copy of the Review being sent for while I was writing, and I had no oppor tunity of comparing my manuscript. I am sorry if in my haste I omitted a single word, [After comparing the passage in the Review with his manuscript, the hon. mem ber said] : I find I have omitted exactly one line — certainly by the mereat accident ; indeed, if any one can auppoae I did it on purpose, he must take me for a confounded fool. (Hear, hear.) But to continue my quotation, reading again that last sentence, with its dropped line : — The completion of the Intercolonial Railway, and the probable annexation of the fertile por tions of the Great North-Western territory to the new Confederation, form a portion only of the probable conaequencea of ita formation, the benefita of which will not be limited to the coloniea alone, but in which Europe and the world at large will eventually participate. When the Velley of the Saskatchewan shall have been colonized, the communications between the Red River Settlement and Lake Superior completed, and the harbour of Halifax united hy one con tinuous line of railway, with the shorea of Lake Huron, the three misaing links between the Atlantic and Pacific ocean will have been sup plied. Three pretty large linka, by the way, and it would have been mere correct if the writer had aaid ' ' three out of four " — the trifle of the Rocky Mountains being atill left for a fourth, (Hoar, hear.) Hon. Mr. McDOUGALL— That is very good. Mr. dunkin— I don't think so; it's rather too good. I have read these portioiig 539 of the article to show what we are expected by this writer to do. We are to buy the Hudson's Bay territory, and take care of it, and make a grand road all across the con tinent, which Great Britain shrinks from contemplating herself. And now I will readjust two passages to show how little sanguine he is of any good to be done by the scheme as regards ourselves, and in the conduct of our own affairs. Here is one of them : — What we have to fear, and if posaible to guard against, is the constant peril of a three-fold con flict of authority implied in the very existence of B. federation of dependencies retaining, aa now propoaed, any conaiderable ahare of intercolonial independence.Rather a suggestive hint, and which, further on, is expanded and emphasized thus : — If, as has been alleged, a legialative union ia unattainable, because iuconaistent with due secu rities for the righta guaranteed to the French Canadiana, by treaty or by the Quebec Act, aud Federation is therefore the only alternative, the vital queation for the framera of this Constitution is how the inherent weakneaa of all federations can in thia instance be cured, and the Central Government armed with a sovereignty which may be worthy of the name. It ia the essence of all good governments to have somewhere a true sovereign power. A sovereignty which ever eludes your grasp, which haa no local habitation, provincial or imperial, ia iu fact no government at all. Sooner or later the shadow of authority which ia reflected from an unsubstantial political idea must cease to have power amoug men. It has been assumed by those who take a sanguine view of this political experiment, that its authors have ateered clear of the rock on wh.ch the Washiwgtou Confederacy haa apUt. But if the weakness of the Central Government is the rock alluded to, we fear that unlesa in clear water aud amooth aeaa, the pilot who ia to ateer thia new craft will need a more perfect chart than the reaolutiona of the Quebec Conference afford, to aecure him against the riaka of navigation. So far, then, accoiding to the writer of this article, we have three points settled. He considers, and those for whom he writes and speaks consider, and the Edinburgh Review makes known that it considers — first, that the retention of these coloniea ia so manifestly dis advantageous to the parent state, that it would puzzle any statesman to find any reason for keeping us ; next, that a result of this mea- suie is to be the early carrying through by us of undertakings too vast now for England not to shrink from ; and thirdly, that the measure itself, viewed as a machinery of government for ourselves, is not going to work well. There is stiU a fourth point. The measure embodies a proffer of fealty to the British Crown — and with no hint but that such fealty, and the correlative duty of protection, are meant both of them to be perpetual. How does our writer treat of this ? He says : — If the Quebec project were to be regarded aa in any aenae a final arrangement, and the equivalent iu honor or power to be derived by the Crown from the acceptance of ao perilous an authority, were to be weighed iu the balance with the commensurate risks, the safety and dignity of the proffered position might be very questionable ; but it is impossible to regard this proposed Feder ation in any other light than that of a transition stage to eventual independence ; and in thia view the precise form which Imperial sovereignty may for the time being asaume, becomea a matter of comparatively secondary importance. And, aa if this was not warning plain enough, the article closes thua : — The people of England have no deaire to snap aaunder abruptly the slender links which stUl unite them with their trans- A tian tic fellow-snb- jecta, or to shorten by a single hour the duration of their common citizenship. * • » « We are led irresistibly to the inference that thia stage has been well nigh reached in the history of our trans-Atlantic provinces. Hence it comes to pass that we accept, not witli fear and trem bling, but with unmixed joy and satisfaction, a voluntary proclamation, which, though couched in the accents of loyalty, and proffering an endur ing allegiance to our Queen, falls yet more wel come on our ears as the harbinger of fhe future and complete independence of British North America. (Hear, i ear.) WeU, Mr. Speaker, I can only say that if these are the opinions which honorable gentlemen opposite are diapoaed to " hear, hear" approvingly, they are not mine. I find in them an unmis takable proof that there ia an important party at home who take up this measure, and hope to see it carried through with the mere view to its being a step to absolute independence on our part, and a cutting of the tie between these provincea and the parent atate. (Hear, hear.) Sir, I look upon the early cutting of that tie aa a certain reault of ttiia measure ; and of that again, I hold the inevitable result to be our early absorption iuto tbe republio south of ua — the United Statea, or the Northern Statea, be which it may. (Hear, hear.) It cannot be, that we can form here an independent atate that shall have a prosperous history. I aay 540 a^' ain, I am far from believing that this idea of aeparation ia by any meana the dominant opinion at home; but I am sure it is enter tained by a prominent achool of English politicians. (Cries of "Name, name.") Itia eaay to call for namea; but there are too many; one can't go over the namea of a whole achool. I indicate them well enough when I give them the well-known name of the Goldwin- Smixh achool. There are influential men enough, and too many, among them — (Renewed cries of "Name.") Well then, I rather thiuk Mr. Cobden, Mr. Bright, and any number more of the Liberal party, belong to this school — in fact, most of what are known as the Manchester school. But, joking apart, if honorable gentlemen in their simplicity believe that utterancea of the kind I have been reading appear in the Edinburgh Review without aignificance, their aimplioity paaaea mine. I read these utter ances, in connection with those of the Times and of any quantity of other English journals,aa representing the views of an infiuential portion of the Britiah public, views which have auch weight with the Imperial Government aa may go some way to account for the acceptance — the qualified acceptance — which this scheme has met with at their hands. It is recom mended at home — strongly recommended, just on tbis account, by those who there most favor It — as a great step towards the inde pendence of thia country. Now, I am not deairous that our acceptance of the scheme should go home to be cited (as it would be) to the people of England, aa a proof that we so view it — a proof that we wish to be separated from the Empire. I am quite satisfied separation will never do. We are simply sure to be overwhelmed the instant our neighbors and we differ, unlesa we have the whole power of the Mother Country to assist us. Mr. SCOBLE— We shaU have it. Mr. DUiNKlN— I think we ahall, if we maintain and strengthen our relationa witb the parent atate ; but I do not think we ahall, if we adopt a scheme like this, which must certainly weaken the tie between ua and the Empire. Our language to England had bet ter be the plain truth — that we are no beg gars, and will ahirk no duty ; that we do not want to go, and of ouraelves will not go ; that our feelinga and our intereata alike hold ua to her; that, even apart from feeling, we are not strong enough, and know our own weakneaa, and the atrength of the power near us ; and that the only means by which we can possibly be kept from absorption by that power, is the maintaining now — and for all time that we can look forward to — of our con nection with the Mother Land. (Hear, hear.) We are told, again, that there are conaiderationa connected with the Lower Pro vinces which make it necessary for us to accept this measure, that it is a solemn treaty entered into with them. Well, a treaty, I suppoae, impliea authority on the part of thoae who framed it to enter into it. Hon. Atty. Gen. CARTIER— We are asking for that authority now, but you oppose it. Hon. Mr. McGEE— Her Majesty says in her Speech from the Throne at the opening of the Imperial Parliament, that she approves of the Conference that framed the treaty. Is not the royal sanction sufficient authority ? Mr. dunkin — Her Majesty's approval of tbose gentlemen having met and consulted together, is not even Her Majesty's approval — much less is it provincial approval — of what tbey did at that meeting. At most, the resolutions are not a treaty, but tbe mere draft of an agreement come to between those gen tlemen. Hon. Atty. Gen. CARTIER— Oh, yes, it is a treaty, and we are now fighting to up hold it. Mr. DUNKIN— Well, it is a draft of a treaty if you like, but it is not a treaty. Plen ipotentiaries, who frame treaties, have full authority to act on behalf of their respective countries. Hon. Atty. Gen. CARTIER^It is the same aa any other treaty entered into under the Britiah ayatem. The Government is re aponaible for it to Parliament, and if thia doea not meet your approval, you can diapossess us by a vote of want of confidence. Mr. DUNKIN— Tbe honorable gentleman may have trouble yet before he is through with it. Hon. Atty. Gen. CARTIER— Very weU, we will be prepared for it. Hon. j. S. MACDONALD— It is not so long since the honorable gentleman waa voted out, and it may not be long before he ia served the same way again. (Hear, hear, and laugh ter.) Mr. DUNKIN— Well, I was saying that thia ia no treaty to which the people either of Canada or of the Lower Provincea are at aU bound ; and it ia very doubtful whether the people of the Lower Provincea will not reject it. I am quite aatiafied that the people of Canada ought not to accept it, and T am not 541 so very sure but that before the play is played out to the end, tbey wUl refuae to accept it, especially the people of Lower Canada, where, if it is carried at ali, it will be by a very small majority. (Hear,, hear.) But the hon orable gentleman (Hon. Mr. Cartier) has come over to my ground that it is not a treaty, but only the draft of a treaty, subject to the disapproval of the House and country. Taking it, however, as a treaty merely be tween thoae who entered into it, I am dia poaed to make one admiasion, that it haa one quality such as often attaches to treaties entered into by duly constituted plenipoten tiaries, and that is, that there seem to be some secret articles connected with it. (Hear, Hon. Atty. Gen. CARTIER— The gen tlemen who entered into it represented their governments, and the governments of all the provinces were represented. It is therefore a treaty between these provinces, which wUl hold good unlesa the Government ia ouated by a vote of the House. Mr. dunkin — The honorable gentleman does not, I suppose, forget that when thia Government was formed there was a distinct declaration made, that until the plan they might propose should have been completed in detaU and laid before Parliament, Parliament was not to be held committed to it in any way. (Hear, hear.) But I was going on to something else, and I cannot allow myself to be carried back. I was saying that, assimilating this to a treaty like some other treaties, it seems to have secret articles in it. I find that one of the gentlemen who took part in the negotiations, the Hon. Mr. Hathaway, of New Brunswick — Hon. Mr. McGEE — Mr. Hathaway was not here at all. Mr. dunkin — I was under the impres sion he was ; though I acknowledge I have not burdened my memory with an exact list of the thirty-three distinguished gentlemen who took part in the Conference. At all evente, he was a member of the Govemment of New Bmnswick, which was a party repre sented at the Conference. Mr. Hathaway, at a pubUc meeting lately, said that — He occupied a very unenviable positior. He waa under peculiar embarrassments, more so than any other apeaker who would addresa them. It waa well known to most of his audience that he had been one of the sworn adviaera of Hia ExceUency for the past three yeara. Aa auch he couldrevealno secreu of Council, It waa true H'S Excellency had given him permission to make public the correspondence that had taken place on the aubject of his resignation, but what ever might be the effect upon himself, there were secrets connected with the scheme that he could not divulge. There were secrets of the scheme that he was not free to speak of. And we, too, find here that there are secrets; many matters as to which we may ask as much as we like, and can get no information. But the main point I was coming to ia thia. Call this thing what you like — treaty or whatever you please — it is not dealt with m the Lower IProvinces at all in the way in which it is proposed to deal with it here. The Lower Provinces, we think, are smaller political communities than ourselves. Tbeir legislative councils, their Houses of Assembly, we do not caU quite so considerable as our own. We are in the habit of thinking that among the legislative bodiea in the Britiah Empire, we atand num ber two ; certainly a great way behind the Houae of Commons, but having no other body between us and them in point of importance. (Hear, bear.) The Lower Provinces, I say, are not so big as we are, and yet how differ ently has our Parliament been treated from the way in which their amaUer parUamente have been. And the apology, the reaaon as- aigned why we are treated as we are, is, that this thing is a binding treaty, if not yet be tween the provinces, at least between the governments of the other provinces and the Government of Canada. But how does the Lieutenant-Governor of Nova Scotia address his houses of parhament ? " It is not my pro vinces," saya he, " and I have no miaaion to do more than afford you the ampleat and freest scope for the consideration of a proposal" — ne does not caU it a treaty — he calls it merely " a proposal, which seriously involves your own prospects." I suppose it does ; but, so far from calling it a treaty, he does not caU it even an agreement. Hon. Atty. Gen. CARTIER— But what he says implies that he so regards it. Mr. DUNKIN— Does it ? Let me read the whole passage : — It ia not my province, and I have no mission to do more than afford you the ampleat and freest scope for consideration of a proposal which seri ously involves your own proapecta, and in refer ence" to which you ahould be competent to interpret the wishes and determine the true intereata ofthe country. I feel assured, however, that whatever be the reault of your deliberationa, you will de- 542 precate attempts to treat in a narrow spirit, or otherwise than with dispassionate care and pru dence, a question so broad that it in reality covera the groimd of all jartiea, and precludes it from becoming the measure of merely one government or one party. He gives his parliament perfect carte blanche to deal with it as they pleaae. Mr. WOOD— As a whole. Mr. dunkin — It is a pity the same lan guage was not addressed to ua. In that caae, Mr. Speaker, I think the motion put into your handa would have been, that you should now leave the chair, in order that we might go into committee of the whole to give the matt3r careful and becoming conaideration. It ia not preaaed on in Nova Scotia, as it is here, with undue haste. The Lieutenant> Governor, in the next paragraph of his apeech, goea on to aay : — I need only observe further, without in the leaat intending thereby to influence your ultimate de termination, that it is obviously convenient, if not essential, for the legislatures of all the pro vinces concerned to observe uniformity in the mode of ascertaining their respective decisions on a question common to all. I have, therefore, desired to be laid before you some correspondence between the Governor General aud myself on that point. That oorreapondence, too, which is to be laid before the Parliament of Nova Scotia, has not been laid before us. (Hear, hear.) I have given the language addressed by this Lieuten ant-Governor to his Legialature with reference to thia " propoaal." In what language do the Commona of Nova Seotia reply ? How will they deal with it ? The report from the delegates appointed to confer upou the union of the Maritime Provincea, and the reaolutiona of the Conference held at Quebec, proposing a union of the different pro vincea of British North America, together with the correspondence upon that subject, will obtain at our handa the deliberate and attentive con sideration demanded by a question of such mag nitude and importance, and fraught with couse- quences so momentous to us and our posterity. Tbis, sir, ia all that the Government of Nova Scotia ask the Legislature of that province to aay. And I do not think that thia courae of theira exactly indicates that they think they have made a treaty by which they must stand or fall, and to every letter and line of which they muat force their Legislature to adhere. If they do regard it in that light, they have_ a very indirect way of expressing their ideas. But this is not the case merely in Nova Sco tia. In Prince Edward Island, every one knows the Government is not bringing this down as a treaty ; in New Brunswick every body knows that the Government has been more or less changed since the Conference, that a general election is going on, and that a great deal wUl depend on the doubtful re sult of that election. Every one kno-ws that the matter is in a very different position in every one of the Lower Provinces from what it is in here ; that there is none of this talk about a treaty anywhere but here. I would like, however, by the way, to draw the at tention of the House for a moment to a case in which there undoubtedly was a treaty. I ¦ speak of the proceedings which eventuated in the union between England and Scotland. In the reign of Queen Anne, at the instance of the two legislatures, then respectively in dependent — of England on the one hand, and of Scotland on the other — Her Majesty appointed commissioners to represent each of her two states, and they framed what were declared to be articles of a treaty. They took months to frame those articles ; and twice in the course of their proceedings Her Majesty came down to assist personally at their deliberations. Their meeting was au thorized by acts of Parliament; they were named by Her Majesty ; they deliberated for months ; and the Queen attended their de liberations twice. And after they had en tered into thia treaty — ao called on the face of it — the Parliament of Scotland departed from it and inaiated on changea which were approved of by the Parliament of England, and the treaty aa thus changed went into op eration. In both parliaments the bills to give effect to it passed through every stage ; originated in Committee of the Whole, and had their first, aecond and third readings. All waa done with the utmoat formality; and yet there waa there unmiatakably a treaty aolemnly made beforehand. Here we have an affair got up in seventeen days by thirty-three gentlemen who met without the sanction of the Crown, and only got that sanction afterwards. The document they agreed upon is full of oversights, aa the Colo nial Secretary states, and as everyone knows who has read it. Yet our Government regard it as a sacred treaty — though no one but themselves so regards it — and want to give it a sacredness which was not claimed even for that treaty between England and Scotland. (Hear, hear.) I am at last very near the close of the remarks I have to offer to the House ; but I must say a few words as to the 543 domestic consideration urged to force us into this scheme. We are asked, " What are you going to do ? You must do something. Are you going back to our old state of dead-lock?" At the risk of falling into an unparUamentary expression, I cannot help saying that I am re minded of a paragraph I read the other day in a Lower Province paper, in which the editor was dealing with this same cry, which seems to be raised in Nova Scotia as weU as here — the cry that something must be done, that things cannot go on as they are. I have not his words here, but their general effect was this — " Whenever," says he, " I hear this cry raised, that something must be done, I •suspect there is a plan on foot to get some thing very bad done. Things are in a bad way — desperate, may be. But the remedy proposed is sure to be desperate. I am put in mind of a story of two boys who couldn't swim, but by iU luck had upset their canoe in deep water, and by good luck had got on the bottom of it. Says the big boy to the little one, ' Tom, can you pray ?' Tom confessed he could not call to mind a prayer suited to the occasion. ' No, Bill,' says he, 'I don't know how.' Bill's answer was earnest, but not parliamentary. It contained a past partici ple passive which I won't repeat. It was, ' Well, something must be done — and that — soon !' " (Laughter.) Now, seriously, what do hon orable gentlemen mean when they raise here this cry that " something must be done?" Is it seriously meant that our past is so bad that positively, on pain of politi cal annihUation, of utter and hopeless ruin, of the last, worst consequences, we must this instant adopt just precisely this scheme ? If that is so, if really and truly those politi cal institutions which we were in the habit of saying we enjoyed, which, at all events, we have been living under and, for that matter, are li-ving under now, if they have worked so iU as all that comes to, or rather if we have worked them so Ul, I think we hold out poor encouragement to those whom we call upon to take part with us in trying this new experi ment. We Canadians bave had a legislative union and worked it close upon five and twen ty years, and under it have got, it is said, into such a position of embarrassment among our selves, are working our political institutions so very badly, are in such a frightful fix, that, never mind what the prospects of this parti cular step may be, it must positively be taken ; we cannot help it, we cannot stay as we are, nor yet go back, nor yet go forward, in any course but just this one. (Hear, hear.) If this thing is really this last desperate remedy for a disease past praying for, then indeed I am desperately afraid, sir, that it will not suc ceed. The hot haste with which gentlemen are pressing it is of ill omen to the deceived Mother Country, to our deceived sister pro vinces, and to our most miserably deceived selves. But the truth is that we are in no such sad case ; there is no fear of our having to go back to this bugbear past ; we could not do it if we would. Things done cannot be undone. In a certain sense, whatever is past is irrevo cable, and it is well if should be. True we are told by some of the honorable gentlemen on the Treasury benches that their present harmony is not peace, but only a sort of armed truce, that old party lines are not effaced, nor going to be. WeU, sir, if so, suppose that this scheme should be ever so well dropped, and then that some day soon after these gen tlemen should set themselves to the job of finding out who is cuckoo and who hedge- sparrow in the govemment nest that now shel ters them aU in such warm quiet, suppose there should thus soon be every effort made to re-vive old cries and feuds — what then ? Would it be the old game over again, or a variation of it amounting to a new ono ? For a time at least, sir, a breathing time that hap pily cannot be got over, those old cries and old feuds will not be found to be revivable as of old. Even representation by population will be no such spell to conjure witb — will fall on ears far less excitable. It has been adopts ed by any number of those who might other wise be tbe likeliest to run it down. It will be found there might be a worse thing in the minds of many. Give it a new name and couple it with sufficient safeguard against legislation of the local stamp being put through against the veto of the looal ma jority ¦ — ¦ the principle tacitly held so, and found to anawer in the case of Scotland — and parliamentary reform may be found no such bug-bear to speak of after all. And as for the bug-bears of the personal kind, why, sir, after seeing all we have seen of the extent to whioh gentlemen can set aside or overcome them when occasion m-ay re([uire, it is too much to think they will for soi ue little time go for so very mueh. Like it or not, honorable gentlemen, for a time, will have to be to some extent busy witb a game that shall be not quite the old one. The frienus of this project, Mr. Speaker, never seem to tire of propheaying to ua smooth things, if only it is once first adopted. To every criticism on its many and manifest defects, the ready an- 544 swer ia, that we do not enough count upon men'a good senae, good feeling, forbearance, and all that sort of thing. But, sir, if the adoption of this scheme is ao to improve our poaition, is to make everything so smooth, to make all our public men so wise, so pru dent, and so conscientious, I should like to know why a something of the same kind may not by possibility be hoped for, even though this project sbould be set aaide. If we are to be capable of the far harder task of working out theae projected unworkable political in atitutiona, why ia it tbat we muat be incap able of the eaaier taak of going on without them ? I know well that in all tirae the tem per of those who do not think has been to put faith rather in the great thing one cannot do, than in the smaller thing one can. " If the prophet had bid thee do some great thing, wouldest thou not have done it ? " And here too, sir, as ao often before, if the truth muat be told, the one thing truly needed ia what one may call the smaller thing—not perhapa easy, but one must hope not imposaible — the exerciae by our public men and by our people of that amount of diacretion, good temper and forbearance which aees something larger and higher in public life than mere party struggles and crises without end ; of tbat political saga city or capacity, call it which you will, with which they will surely find the institutions they have to be quite good enough for them to use and quietly make better, with out which they will as surely find any that may anyhow be given them, to be quite bad enough for tbem to fight over and make worse. Mr. Speaker, I feel that I have taken up a great deal of the time of the House, and that I have presented but imperfectly the views I am anxious to impress upon it as to this great queation. But for aheer want of atrength, I might have felt it neceasary, at whatever risk of wearying the House, to go into aome mattera more thor oughly, and more especially into that branch of tbe aubject which relatea to what I may caU the alternative policy I myaelf prefer to this measure, and would wish to see adopted and carried out. As it ia, I have but to aay in concluaion, while warmly thanking the Houae for the attention and patience with which it haa for ao many houra listened to me, that I have aaid nothing but what I firmly believe, and felt myself bound to say, and that I truat the sober good sense of the people of these provinces, after full reflection and discuaaion, will decide rightly upon thia the largest question by far that haa ever been before them for deciaion. (Cheers.) On motion of Hon. Mr. Cauohon, the debate was then adjourned. Thursday, March 2, 1865. Mr. ARCHAMBEAULT— In rising on thia occaaion, sir, my intention is not to occupy the attention of the Houae for a long time, nor to diacuaa the merita of the meaaure which is now before ua. I intend merely to explain my own motives for the vote which I ahall give, and this I ahall do aa briefly aa poaaible. I am bound to ao- . knowledge at once that when I arrived in Quebec, at the commencement of the aeaaion, I waa oppoaed to the plan of Confederation, and ao strongly oppoaed to it, that I waa fully determined to vote againat it. But after a more aerioua oonaideration of the queation, and after hearing the explanations which have been afforded to ua of the scheme of the Government, I have arrived at the conviction that I had decided, if not wrongly, at leaat haatily, and that I ought not to aid in the rejection of the measure, merely because it did not quite coincide witb all my opinions. After listening to the diaeuasion, and the explanationa of the membera of the Adminiatration, I perceived that the plan waa one of compromiae and could not, therefore, be adapted to auit aU viewa, nor ahaped even to meet thoae of the men who framed it. I can understand that thoae persona who are oppoaed to any degree of Confederation, and who would rather bave repreaentation baaed on population or the annexation of Canada to the United States, may be oppoaed to the project ofthe Government, and reject it accordingly ; but those who, like myaelf, are not opposed to it under any circumstancea, and are capable of appreciating tbe neceaaity of it at the present conjuncture, together with the advantages it may produce to the country, ought not, can not, I think, reject it, only because some of ita detaila are not exactly to their mind. It ia our buaineaa first to enquire whether aome constitutional changes are not necesaary, and none I think will deny that they are. The political leaders of the two parties into which this House ia divided, have acknow ledged thia as a neeeasity. It remains, therefore, only to conaider what changes ahould be made. The members of the Government have decided this question, and proposed a Confederation of all the Provinces 545 of British North America. They have come to an understanding with the sister provinces, and now lay before you their acheme of a Confederation. We are not now to inquire whether all the details of the soheme per fectly agree in every point with our particu lar ideas, but whether the change is neces sary, whether the proposed scheme ia good and fit to be accepted aa a whole ; for, aa the scheme is a compromise between differ ent parties, whoae intereata are at variance with each other, the Government who now move ita adoption muat be held to be respon sible for all its details. Any amendment of the plan passed by this House would really be a vote of want of confidence in the Gov ernment, and you muat therefore either adopt the plan aa laid before you, or paaa a vote of want of confidence in the preaent Adminia tration. Now, I for my part am not prepared to vote a want of confidence in the men now in power. To induce me to do that, I muat see in their opponents a better security for good govemment, and its advantages to the country, than they are able to show ; I must hope fo find in the latter something better than what I find in those whose measures they withstand. So far, I do not find that they have offered, nor do I find that they now offer, such security or such hope. Far from it; if we are to judge them by their former acts, we must confeaa that we cannot give them our oon fidence, that they have diaplayed great want of capacity for the government and manage- meut of the affaira of the oountry. When they were in power, they had no decided policy, they were incapable of dealing with any important question : they lived from hand to mouth. Their acts in the Adminis tration were stamped with a spirit of resent ment and injustice towards their adversaries. They instituted commissions of inquiry, for instance, against public officers, in order to get a pretext for dismissing them and making room for their hungry partisans. Again, have they any better plan to propose to us than that of the Government ? No I They might offer ua, perhaps, repreaentation baaed on population, or annexation to the United States ; but I do not think such remedies would suit our taate. In theae circum stances, I have no heaitation in deohring that I shall vote for the scheme of Confeder ation, as preaented to ua by the Government, although it doea not meet aU my viewa, aud does not promise all the guarantees which I .should be glad to find in it, and although I 70 do not consider it as likely, in its present form, to afford a sufficient safeguard for the interests of the different provinces, and to secure stabUity in the working of the pro posed union. As I am not in a position to influence public opinion, so as to oblige the Government to modify their plan to suit my viewa, I take sides with the men who have alwaya had my confidence, and with whom I have alwaya acted, becauae I have confidence in their honeaty and their patriotiam. I cherish a belief that in thia all-important queation, whieh affects our best interests and' our national existence and social welfare, they have been actuated by the same love for their country which has ever guided them in times past. (Cheers.) Mr. blanchet said— Mr. Speaker, as no one is disposed to take the floor just now, and it wo-rld seem as if all who intend to discuss thia queation are bent on having a large audience in the galleriea, I ahaU take upon me to aay a few words. Thoae who moved to have the apeechea of this House printed in official form certainly did no good aervice to the country; for all are trying -which ahaU make the longeat apeech, and I do not think it ia altogether juat to the public purae. Each one would speak at a particular hour, and to the eara of a cer tain audience ; but the hiatory of the Par Uament of England ahews that her great atateamen and oratora did not concern them aelvea about that. The greateat and moat important apeeches were delivered in the House of Commons at a very late hour of the night; thus Fox delivered hia great apeech on the Eaat India Bill at two o'clock in the morning; Pitt hia on the abolition of the slave trade at four o'clock in the morn ing; and we should lose nothing by speaking before half-paat seven in the evening. But as the honorable meinber for Montmorency (Hon. Jlr. Cauoho.v) is to speak thia evening, and I wiah to explain my way of thinking on the queation, I riae to do so. This question of Confederation is not a new one. It has already agitated men's minds and been a subject of debate for a great many years. Now public opinion is completely made up concerning it. I have no occaaion to enter into details reapecting the acheme which we have before us. It has been dis cussed witn much nore of knowledge and precision than I bring to the consideration ofthe subject, by the members of the Gov ernment and the honorable membera on the opposite side of the House. I need not say 546 that tbe territory intended to be included in the Confederacy ia nearly aa large as all Europe, that it will contain four mU lions of souls, and that having confeder ation, we shall become the fourth power in the world in respect of merchant ahipping. We have only to compare the atatement of our preaent imports and exports with that of the United States a few yeara ago, and we ahall find that our poaition ia aa good aa theira was. I hold in ray hand a work lately written by Mr. Bigelow, at preaent chargi 'd'affaires Irom the American Government to the Tuileriea, containing valuable atatiatica of the commerce, manufacturea and reaourcea of the United State.s, aa well aa of the war at preaent raging in that country. In the chapter devoted to commerce, he writea aa followa : — After the reorganization of the constitutional government in 1798, commerce speedily grew to vast proportions. The tonnage, which, iul7y2,wa3 564,437 tons, had reached 1,03'2,;:19 in 1801 ; the imports valued in 1792 at 31,500,000 dollars (157,500,000 francs), were iu 1801, 111,363,511 dollars (556,817,555 francs); the e.xports had in the same period risen from 20,753,098 dollars (111.3,765,490 francs) to 94,115,925 dollars (470, 579,625 francs). In 18lj7 the tonnage was 1,268,- 548; the imports 138,500,000 dollars (692,500,- 000 francs); andthe exports 108,313,1,30 dollars (541,715,750 francs). At that period, American commerce received a blow from which it did not recover for several years. The measures of the English Parliament, followed by NAPOLEOu'a decrees, issued from Berlin and Milan, and by the embargo of 1807, produced a deep stagnation in the commercial affairs of the Union, and although the amount of tonnage did not very perceptibly diminish during the tifteen following yeara, the imports feU in 1808 to 56,990,000 dollars (284,- 950,000 francs), and exports 22,430,960 dollars (112,154,000 frauca). The war of 1812-'16gave employment to the ahipping which would other wise have rotted in the docks, aud occasioned some clipper privateers to be built; but the trade of the country continued to decline, so ¦ that in 1814 the imports rose only to 12,965 000 dollars (64,825,000 francs), und the exports 6,927,441 dollars (34,6:-,7,205 francs.) The end ing of the war gave activity to commercial pur suits. In 1815 the importa reached 113,041,274 dollars (565,206,370 francs) and in 1816, 147 103,000 dollars (735,515,000 francs) ; the exports of these same yeara were 52,557,753 dollars (262,788,765 francs) aud 81,905,452 dollara (409,602,250 francs). This amount of imports, which was in excess of the i-ei|uirements of the couutry at that time, fell the foUowiiio- year to 99,250,000 dollars (496,25 ,000 fraucs),°and from that period to 1830, excepting the year 1818, the average amount of the imports did uot exceed 78 milliona of dollars (390 milliona of frauca), and the exports reached about the same amount. Thua we find that the average amount of the imports and exports did not exceed $78,000,- 000 at that time. We are only a few years behind the United States in that respect. I said a moment ago that the queation of a Confederation of all the Provincea of Britiah North America waa not a new one, and in fact we find that it waa mooted at a aomewhat remote period ofthe history of the country. In 1821, the leader of the Upper Canada Radi- cala, Mr. W. L. Mackenzie, declared that he wiahed with hia whole heart that there could be a Confederation of tbe British Provincea. Ten yeara later the scheme became a special question of debate, aod the discuaaion eatabliahed it as a positive fact, as it will soon be an historical one. (Hear, hear.) Others besides the members on this side of the Houae are in favor of a Federal union ; aome incline to a Confederation of all the Provincea, othera to a Federal union of the two Canadas only— all are well disposed to a Federal union of one kind or other. At the time of the crisis of 1858, the Brown-Dorion Government were to settle the difficulties then besetting us, and if I understood the meaning of one of the membera of that Government, who went to meet hia conatitu enta in order that they might ratify hia acceptance of a portfolio in that Adminis tration, the remedy intended to be applied to the existing evils by that Cabinet waa a Federal union of the two Canadas ; but he aaid alao that, although the policy of the Government to which he belonged waa not yet clearly defined, he thought they would take up, at aome future day, the queation of a Confederation of all the Provincea of Britiah North America. That hon. member was the Hon. P. Lemieux, and he waa re tumed by the county of Levis immediately after making theae declarations. Nearly about the same time Mr. J. C. Taoh:^, at present Secretary of the Board of Agricul ture, wrote a work which was almost prophe tic of the question of a Confederation of the Britiah North American Provinces. It ia unneceaaary to remark that that gentleman had acquired much experience in his travela, and rauch information by hard atudy and preaevering labor, and waa therefore perfectly qualified to form a judgment on the queation. Mr. TAOHtfi haa written a work of aome length, in whioh he roughly sketches the scheme of a Confederation of the Provinces, 547 of which I trust the House will permit me to cite a few lines. These will show that his predictions are speedily to be realized : — What hopea may we not be allowed to indulge respecting the material future of the immense country whioh includes the two Canadas, New- Bruna-wick, Nova Scotia, Newfoundland, Prince Edward Ialand, the Hudaon'a Bay Territory and Vancouver'a Ialand, when we reflect on the wealth ofa soil which ia almoat everywhere remarkably fertile, (we except the extreme north,) on the re sourcea which the forests have treaaured up for the settler in the lapse of agea, on the immenae fiaheriea in the Gulf, aufficient of themselvea to feed the whole world with fiah of the fineat quality ; when we consider that the whole of thia vast con tinent offers to ua, in ita varioua geological form- ationa mineral wealth of the moat precious kinda, and that nature haa arranged for ua channela of intercommunication of incredible grandeur. The fertile aoil of theae pro-vincea intersected through out their entire length by the rivera St. Lawrence and St. John, bathed by the waters of the Gulf and those of the Great Lakes, the superb foirests through which flow the immense Ottawa, the St. Maurice and the Saguenay, the mines of copper bordering on lakea Superior and Huron, the iron mines of Canada, the coal meaaurea of Nova Scotia and New Brunawick, the seaports of Que bec, Halifax and St. John, the ores of aU kinds dispersed throughout the provinces — all those form an aggregate of means which, if we suppose them to be tumed to account by a competent population, governed by a political ayatem baaed on true principlea of order and liberty, justifies the most extravagant calculations of profit, the most exti aordinaiy predictions of growth, as com pared with the present atate of thinga. Thua spoke Mr. TachiS at that period. Not satisfied, moreover, with sketching with a. rapid pencil the general working of this mighty organization, he entered, in a subse quent part of his work, into details which, astonishing to say — although I have no doubt that the members of the Cooference had read his work — exactly coiacide with the plan now submitted to us. Accordingly, in the partition of powers between the General Government and the local governments, the scheme of the Conference is nearly word or word Mr. Tach^'s work. Hon. Mr. DORION- The hon. member is mistaken, for Mr. Tach^ assigns the ascendancy and the highest powers to the local governments, whereas the Government plan assigns them to the Central Government. Mr. BLANCHET— This is what Mr. TACHjfi says : — These powers of the Federal Government are not, as we imderstand the matter, tobe exercised. except as regards the following subjects, viz.. Commerce, compriaing purely commercial laws, auch aa laws respecting banks and other institu tions of a general financial character, coinage, and weights and measures ; Customs, including the establishment of a uniform tariff, and the col lection of the revenue resulting therefrom ; great Public Worka and Navigation, auch aa canals, railways, telegraph lines, great seaport worka and the lighting of the coaat ; Post Oflice arrange mente, both in their entirety and in their internal and external details ; the Militia in the entirety of ita organization ; Criminal justice, comprising all offences which do not come under the jurisdic tion of the police courta and juatioes of the peace. Everything elae connected with civil law, education, public charitiea, the aettlement of public landa, agriculture, city and rural police, road works, in fact, with all matters relating to the family life, ao to speak, of each province, will remain under the exclusive control of the respect ive Local Government of each one of them, aa by inherent right ; the powers of the Federal Gov ernment being looked upon as merely a concea aion of righta, which are specially designated. I conaider that under the preaent plan of Confederation the local legialaturea are su prerae in respect of the powera wbich are attributed to them, thatia to aay, in respect of local mattera. In thia reapect it goea even further than the honorable member for Hochelaga himaelf waa prepared to go in 1859, for he propoaed to leave to the Federal Government the right of legialating upon the French civil lawa, &c., of Lower Canada ; but, aa hia Government waa not very long- lived, I know that the honorable member for Hochelaga can deny all thia. Very nearly at the aame time another Government ad dreaaed to the Imperial Government a memorial, in which it aaked for the Confed eration of the Britiah North American Provincea ; but the Imperial Government replied that it waa not prepared to give a decided reply ; and aa there had been no agreement between the provinces, tbe matter remained in abeyance for the time. Thence forward no steps were taken in the matter until last year — until the crisis, with the cir cumstances connected with which every one is perfectly well acquainted. Different gov ernments had been defeated, and the country was already weary of that atate of affairs, when the honorable member for Hochelaga moved his vote of censure upon the Govern ment in relation to the $100,000 affair, and the Government then finding itaelf in a minority, waa compeUed to seek a remedy for the exiating state of affairs, and the result was the Coalition, the Quebec Confer- 548 ence, and finally the plan of Confederation, although he doea not now choose to acknow ledge his offspring. (Hear, hear.^ That conduct releases the latter from any debt of gratitude. (Hear.) It is not ray intention to discuaa the queation of Confederation in a commercial point of view, nor in a financial point of view, nor in a politioal point of view, for in theae aeveral aapecta it has been ably diacuaaed by thoae who have preceded me. I ahaU confine myself to making a few remarks upon the queation in respect of defence. Every one acknowledges that in order to defend a country effectually there must be unity of action, uniformity of syatem, and a combination of the meaaa of defence. Without uniformity, without unity, it ia im poasible to make any serious attempt at defence in case of attack, and the divided country falls an eaay prey to the enemy. So general ia thia rule that history ahewa ua that weak nationa bave alwaya united together, have alwaya coaleaced when they were attacked or were in fear of being attacked by a powerful enemy. The North American colonies did ao in 1775, when they wiahed to offer reaiatance to the Mother Country. They organized themselvea into a Confederation, and it waa in consequence of their ao doing that they were able to reaiat what they conaidered aa an act of oppreaaion on the part of England. Had those colonies, inatead of organizing them- aelves as they did, had each of them a different system of defence, and had there been no uniformity in their tactics, England would have had an eaay bargain of them. And ia it to be suppoaed, if they had not band ed themaelvea together, ao aa to poaaeaa a cer tain amount of strength, that they would have obtained the alliance and the aaaiatance of France? When a feeble power ia attacked by a powerful enemy, it ahould aeek to ally itself with other states which have interests in common with it, in order that they may defend themselves in coraraon. So far aa we are concemed, if we are deairoua of aaaiating the Mother Country in offering an effectual reaiatance to invasions by the American people, we ought to have unity of command, in order that we might be able to send the militia from the centre and cause them to extend towarda the circumference. In caae of war with our neighbora, we ahould, of neceaaity, be compelled, by tho very force ol circumstances, to unite with the other provinces. That being the caae, why not do so at once, in time of peace, while we have time to devote to it that calm and deliberate consideration which the impor tance ol the subject demands. Confederation is the sole means of offering resistance to attempts at invasion by our enemies. The Federal system is the normal condition of American populations ; for there are very few American nations whioh have not a political system of that nature. The Federal system is a state of transition whioh allows the different races inhabiting the same part of the globe to unite, with the .view of attaining national unity and homogeneous- ness. Spain, Belgium, France, and several other European countries were formerly peopled by different races, who constituted so many different communities ; but they became united, they entered into confedera tiona, and in the course of agea all the communitiea were consolidated into thoae whioh we now aee — into everything that ia held to be beautiful, noble and great throughout the whole world. When the Federal ayatem haa been put in practice in an enlightened manner, it haa alwaya aufficed for the requirements of those who adopted it. The case of Greece has been cited by an hon. member of this House, to show the fatol nature of this syatem to the nationa who adopted it ; but he ought to know that tbe decadence of Greece only began from the moment when ahe abandoned the Federal ayatem. The hon, member for Lotbiniere aought to prove that confederations were the aource of all aorta of diaturbances ; and in aupport of what he aaid, he read out to ua the table of contenta of the hiatory of South America, in which he found a long liat of echavffourees, movements, agitations, risings, civil wars and revolutions. It ia not my wish to deny the facta quoted by the honorable member, but I muat aay tbat hia con clusions are not correct, and that it ia not right to draw concluaions adverse to a system from merely perusing the table of contenta of any work whataoever. The hia tory of all nationa will afford tablea of con tenta, whieh, if they were taken aa indicating the normal and habitual condition of a people, would cauae ua to make atrange mia- takea and to draw strange hiatorical conclu- aiona. Even the preaent hiatory of England, the history of the reign of Her Majesty Queen Victoria, might afford to a person, who was desirous of forming a judgment reapecting it from the table of contenta alone, aome facta which might induce him to believe in the complete disorganization of 549 the British Empire ; for in it he would find allusion made to the Chinese war, the several insurrections in India, the insurrectional movement in Ireland, the Russian war, tbe Sepoy rebellion, and a large number of other matters ; but all tbis would prove nothing against the prosperity of the empire under the rule of Her Majesty. (Hear, hear.) But, without losing time over the reply which maybe made to this style of reasoning, I say that it" does not follow that the Federal system is impracticable, because it has not succeeded among certain people who were not in a sufficiently advanced condition for the application of the system. No constitu tion suits every people equally well; constitu tions are made for the people, and not the people for the conatitution. When a people is sufficiently enlightened and sufficiently educated and civilized, a constitution ensur ing their liberty may be given them ; but it is necessary to wait until they are able to appreciate and enjoy it, before giving it to them. A free constitution entruated to an unenlightened people is like an edged tool placed in the hands of a child ; it is a dan gerous inatrument, with which it may chance to wound itself. Besidea, certain forma of government are better suited to certain people than othera. Thua, to endeavor to give the Engliah (constitution to the French people would be to commit a great mistake, for the French people are not adapted to the working of the political institutions of Eng land. Again, try to give the Engliah people the French Conatitution, and the Engliah people will revolt. Before giving a conati tution to a people, that people muat be taught how to uae it. It cannot be said that a table of contents is not hiatory, but certainly one would not aeek in that part of the volume for the philosophy of history. Let us suppose that some one is desirous of reading the history of the Celestial Kingdom, and that on taking up the book he finds, in the table of contents, that at a certain period there was a terrible battle between the good and the wicked angels ; if he shared the ideas of the hon. member for Lotbiniere, he would say to himself : " This country cannot have a good government, and it is not advisable to live in it." When a person draws historical conclusions from a table of contents, it shews that he has not derived much benefit from his st i.ai-s. _' Co.; who are now opposing Confederation are not agreed as to their mode of attack, any more than they are upon the means to be adopted to meet the difficul ties of the position in which we are now placed. The hon. member for Hochelaga (Hon. Mr. Dorion) is in favor of Confeder ation of the two Canadas, and the hon. member for Lotbiniere (Mr. Jcly) is against any Confederation at all. They do not even agree aa to their reasons for opposition. Some are opposed to Confederation because it grants too much to Lower Canada, and others because it grants too much to Upper Canada. Yet Confederation cannot be dis advantageous to everybody, and, for my part, I am of opinion that everyone may find some thing good in it, if he is only reasonable in his expectations. If the hon. member for Hochelaga -n ere caUed upon to arrange the difficulties in wbich the country ia at present situated, I am satisfied that he would not bring forward any other plan than some scheme of Confederation or other; and if he did not succeed with tbe scheme for the Confederation of the Canadas, he would try the more extended plan of a great Confeder ation of aU the provinces. There is indeed, it is true, another remedy which would be more likely to meet the views of certain members — annexation to the United States; but I, for my part, am resolutely opposed to it, and am prepared to fight against it by every possible means, and to take up arms, if necessary, to reaiat it. If we are ever invaded by the United Statea, I shall ever be ready to take up arms to drive the invaders out ofthe country. (Hear, hear.) A great outcry which is raised against Con federation ia that about direct taxation. For my part, I consider that the honorable Miniater of Finance (Hon. Mr. Galt) has proved clearly that we shall not require to have recourse to it. But even supposing tbat such should turn out to be the case, we should not be any worse off than wc should be with the gentlemen on the other side of the House in power ; for it ia perfectly weU known that the hon. member for Chateau guay' a plan is to establish direct taxation. With thom, therefore, we should not have to wait for Confederation before we got it. The honorable members on the other side of the House have alao taken occaaion to find fault with the Speech from the Throne having contained an alluaion to the peace and gene ral proaperity of the oountry. " Why," they aay, " tbe Speech from the Throne atates that trade ia proapering, that the people are happy and contented, that the harvests have been magnificent, and that great contentment and great prosperity everywhere prevail ; 650 and yet constitutional changes are proposed in order to soothe the discontent of the people and the agitation of tbe country." Well ! let us suppoae tbat the gentlemen are right — for it ia true that the year has not been a good one in respect of buainess, and it is natural that such ahould be the caae, in view of the poaition of tbe criaia through which America is now paaaing, and but little else can be expected; the harvest haa not been a very'good one, — however, allowing that theae gentlemen are right, it ia not the leas true that we are relatively in a atate of quiet ude and great proaperity, and it ia juat at the preaent time, when we are in a atate of tranquiUity and can do it in perfect liberty, that we ahould adopt meana to aettle our internal difficultiea. It ia not during a tirae of trouble or a civil war that we can do it, and therefore we ought to profit by the opportunity which ia now offered ua. A Con atitution will not laat unleaa it ia elaborated with the care,, the deliberation and the calm conaideration which can be devoted to it only in time of peace. We are now at peace with our neighbors, our friends are in a large majority, the queation is known to the oountry and haa been conaidered for aeveral montha paat, and our duty ia to do now in time of peace, what it ia impoaaible to do in time of trouble. We ought alao to labor to enlighten public opinion on the aubject of this plan ot Confederation, not by appeals to ita prejudices, but by free and open discus sion, and by wiae counael baae^ on that truth which ahould alwaya be our guiding atar. I am, therefore, diapoaed to vote in favor of the reaolutions which are aubmitted to us. When I became aware that the Government were bringing forward thia acheme of Con federation, I aaid to myaelf that we were about to be liberated from colonial leading- strings, and that we were about to become a people, and I expected the House would approach the question with due regard to its greatness ; some hon. membera have un doubtedly done so, but I regret tbat many others have not been able to raise themselves above the narrow considerations of party. The question has been diacuaaed by atatea men on thia aide of the Houae at least ; but on the other side it has been made a miser able queation of party and of taxation. With these few remarks, I shall conclude by stating that it is my determination to vote in favor of the scheme submitted to us, — (Applause.) Mr. BEAUBIEN— Mr. Speaker, I do not rise to make a long speech, for 1 freely acknowledge that it is not in my power to do so ; and besides, the question which is submitted to ua haa been ao weU diacuaaed by thoae who have preceded me, and who are in a better poaition than myaelf to judge of the condition and requirementa of the country, that the aubject is almost exhausted. I only wish, by riaing on tbia occaaion, to record my preaence at the debates which are in progreaa on thia queation, and to atate in a few worda what the reaaona are which in duce me to aupport thia meaaure. The peculiar poaition of the Britiah North Ame rican coloniea and their proximity to the United Statea, call upon them to unite together in order to form a stronger nation, and one more able to withstand the onslaught of an enemy, should it be necesaary so to do, and to increase their proaperity in a mater ial point of view. There ia one fact which muat not be forgotten, and whioh I muat mention — it ia that when France abandoned thia oountry, and England took poaaesaion of it, from that moment French immigration entirely ceaaed and gave way to immigration of peraooa of foreign origin — of Britiah origin. From that period the English popu lation increaaed from day to day in thia country, and at the preaent time the French- Canadians are in a minority in United Canada. Under theae circumatancea, I am of opinion that it would be at once an act of iraprudeuce and one characterised by a lack of generosity on our parta to wiah to prevent the majority of the population of the country from diaplaying greater aapirationa for our common country, and from deairing ita ad vancement and more rapid progreaa in an onward direction, at the aame time drawing cloaer the bonds which unite ua to the Mother Country. I have reflected on these matters, and although I am not diapoaed to aubmit to injuatice to my oountry or my countrymen, yet I am ready to enter into a compromiae with peraons of other origins. I consider, moreover, that .since we are aatiafied with our position aa Engliah aub jecta, and with the Conatitution which we are allowed freely to exerciae, we should do all in our power to increase England's intereat in her coloniea; and for my part, I conaider that tbe meana of so doing is to accept the Confederation which is proposed to ua. Not long aince diacontent waa m-sui- feated in England among a part ofthe com- 551 mercial class, in consequence of the liberty which we took of imposing high duties on English merchandize imported into this country ; but the Engliah Government did uot share that diacontent, I am happy to say, and did not choose to interfere. This fact, however, was of a nature to cast a chill upon the interest with which we were re garded in England ; but when the news of Confederation reached England, that interest was revived, and has ever aince continued to increaae. If we deaire to interest England in our fate, we must draw closer the bonds that unite ua to her, and we must do it by means of the Confederation now propoaed to us, because' that meaaure ouce carried out, ahe will undoubtedly put forth her whole strength for our defence if we ahould be attacked. Moreover, in view of the eventa which have recently occurred in the aouthern portion of this continent, if we reflect that it seema to be the policy of France and of England to establish a balance of power aimilar to what exiata in Europe, if we conaider that it is for this end that France has establiahed an empire in Mexico, it ia clear that England cannot but view with a favorable eye the movement now in progreaa bere for the Con federation of all the Britiah North American Provinces. It is not at such a time as this, therefore, that England would be disposed to abandon her colonies, as it has been pre tended by some. I stated, a moment ago, that we should not resist the just demands of the British population of this country, provided they do not ask anything involving injuatice towards French-Canadians. If we were guilty 'of injustice towards them, they would complain, and propose a plan of con stitution humiliating to the French-Cana dians, and they would no longer entertain sentiments of esteem and conaideration for us. I do not refer to this matter for the purpose of discouraging my own feUow- countrymen, but because I believe it is necesaary that they should take this view pf the matter into account in the poaition in which we now find ouraelvea placed. To-day our position is an excellent one ; we are strong as a party, we have atateamen at the head of the affaira of our country who are devoted to ita intereat— they have proved it again and again— and united together by the ties of interest and friendship; and above all, we have ever had confidence in those who prepared the project of a Constitu tion now submitted for our consideration ; it is evident, then, that a more favorable opportunity could not possibly be found for effecting constitutional changes than the present circumstances afford. These men, who are surely posaesaed of aa much diplo matic skill as the representatives of the other provinces can exhibit, will undoubtedly look after the interests of Lower Canada; and their opinion, based upon justice, will prevail with those to whom the preparation of our new Constitution is to be entrusted. More over, what I have just stated is perfectly understood by eveiy influential class in the country, by all men who help to form public opinion, who are the guides of the people, and who have hitherto managed to lead them aright, and to bring them into a safe harbor at the laat. To-day theae men and these infiuences are in favor of the present plan, and all are convinced of its necessity. But, on the other hand, what are the influences opposed to Confederation in Lower Canada ? They are confined to a party which has existed for the past fifteen years in Lower Canada, and whicb has always been remarkable for its opposition to aU measures demanded and supported by the party representing in this House the vast majority of the people of Lower Canada, This persistent opposition to the measures of the Lower Canadian party savoured of revolution — for your revo lutionist is by nature incapable of sub- mit'ting to the majority; it is the aame party which in other countriea forma secret so cieties, by means of which society is thrown into diaorder — and it is admitted that every where, in Europe aa well aa in America, theae aecret aocietiea are compoaed of men who are invariably oppoaed to everything calculated to aecure the peace and happineas of the people. Ia it not true that in 1856 or 1857 a place in the Adminiatration was offered to one of the leaders of that party by the present Attorney General, and that an opening was repeatedly made for them, because it was thought that they were acting in good faith ? Now, did they not invariably refuse the alliance offered them ? And did they not even refuse to give a cordial sup port to the Macdonald-Siootte Adminis- stration, which was composed of Liberal- Conservatives ? And the reason was, that that Administration was not exclusively composed of the democratic element. Hon. Mr. DORION— Who voted against that Administration, and who defeated it ? 552 Mr. BEAUBIEN— It is true that the actual vote by which that government was upset was given by us, because there was in that Govemment an excess of the element I have just referred to, and for other reasons; but it was that party that betrayed and spurned those who had enabled them to carry their elections. (Hear, hear.) Is that not the truth ? Then, that persistent and constant opposition to everything, shows that the members of tbat party were inspired by paaaiona, not to be found in the generality of men. The Conaervative party haa always opposed representation by population under the present union, because under thia union we are face to face with the population of a country of whioh the producta are different from oura, and of which the interesta are not alwaya identical with oura. Thia queation waa strongly agitated. The whole people of Lower Canada resisted that demand, and the whole Conservative party firmly refused to consent to it, while the other party — the Opposition party — held out hopes to those who demanded that measure, and aUied themselves with tiiem. This is a statement, the truth of whioh cannot be denied, for documents proving the facts exiat, and have been laid before thia Houae and the country. This cause of diaaenaion haa always exiated, and will alwaya exist in Upper Canada, not becauae it ia neceasary to the aupport of auch or such a party, but becauae it ia the reault of a proviaion of the Conatitution, and because the intereata of Upptr Canada are not the same aa ours. Aad if we do not effect a settlement of thia question now, these dissenaiona will, ere long, be renewed and the difficultiea increaaed. Here ia an opportunity of removing theae difficultiea by unitiog ouraelvea with the Lower Provincea; and 1 thiuk Lower Canada would do well not to loae the opportunity. Uuder Oon- federatiou, the political partiea into which the provincea will be divided will find it neceaaary to form alliancea, and our alliance wiU ba courted by all, ao that we ahall in reality hold the balance of power. More over, I am quite convinced that we have no grounda for fear in that reapect. I have alwaya remarked that material intereata are of great weight in the formation of partiea, and the conduct of the French-Canadiana, with reference to their religioua inatitutiona, never inapired any uneaaineaa or diatruat in our fellow-countrymen of a different origin trom euro, when they found it their intereat 10 form an alliance with ua ; and I am certain that we shall find, under like circum stances, the same disposition among tbe inhabitants of the Lower Provinces. The plan proposed to us being based upon the principle of justice and equity to all, it is deserving of the support of all parties, ft presents a remedy for the evils of which Upper Canada complains, at the same time that it affords guaranteea for the protection of the intereata of the other provincea ; and inaamuch aa it is founded on just bases, it will be found — more especially among a people such aa that of thia country, who are peaceable and well-diaposed, who are, for the most part, owners of land, and have many interests to protect — it will be found, I say,that a aentiment of juatice will, prevail, and that every one will do hia beat to promote the working of the new Conatitution in auch a manner aa to give full aatisfaction to aU the parties interested. Notwithstanding what the hon. member for Lotbiniere has aaid in the courae of a apeech, with which he him self seemed to be so intensely amused, the sound sense and judgment of the people of Lower Canada will satisfy them that they will find in the project which haa been aub mitted to ua, guaranteea for all their intereata and for everything they hold dear, and that the meaaure will meet all their wanta ; and on the other hand, the aound sense and judg ment of the people of the other provinces will prevent them from committing any exceaa or any act of injuatice towards Lower Canada, if the latter should happen to be in a minority, or if the alliance I have referred to should not be made. And, moreover, aa regards our being in a minority, are we not exposed to it under the preaent syatem? And I prefer facing the larger majority, aince it will be leaa hoatile to Lower Canada. As mattera now atand, we should find ourselvea at the mercy of the Upper Canada majority, if they wiahed to commie any injuatice towarda ua; but, under the Confederation, I believe we ahall have better guarantees than we now poaaess against any attempt at injua tice on the part of the Federal Government, for the policy of England ia to afford her coloniea every poaaible reaaon for content ment. The hon. member for Richelieu haa apoken of the eventa which occurred prior to 1837, to convince ua that we have every reason to diatruat the sentiments of the Bri tish population. Why refer to matters so long forgotten ? The hon. member ought to know that the policy which eircumatances have induced England to adopt, is no longer 55S the policy which then prevailed. Doea any one believe that England would now encour age any section of. the Britiah population in doing an injuatice to the inhabitanta of Lower Canada? It will be said that tbe national life of Lower Canada is so deeply rooted, that it is impossible to destroy it ; but, if we desire to secure its safety, we must accept the present scheme of Confederation, under which all the religious interesta of Lawer Canada, bor educational inatitutiona, her public landa, in fact everything that con stitutes a people's nationality, will find protec tion and safety. With the control of our public lands in our own handa, we can attract the tide of emigration, retain our own people in the country, and advance in proaperity aa rapidly as the other pro vinces. And all thia ia aecured to us under the plan of Confederation. Every impartial man will admit that great care has been taken, in the drawing up of this project of Confederation, to protect all our interests. It may be true that it is not quite free from defect, but every one mnst acknowledge that it is the moat perfect ayatem that could poaaibly be obtained, and the .ayatem beat calculated to afford ua security. All the hon. gentlemen who have spoken on the Opposition side say that the expenses will be extraordinary, aud that the revenue will not be sufficient to support tho governments of the Confederation. But they base their calculations upon the revenue as it now stands, and they do not refiect that the pre sent debt ofthe province haa been contracted in carrying out the vaat public worka we now possesa, and that theae public worka have not aa yet produced a revenue, but will hereafter do ao. Theae public works were essentially necesaary for the development of our resources ; and if at this moment the Minister of Finance is able to preaent a budget ahewing a surplus of revenue over expenditure, we are juatified in hoping that within a few yeara our revenue will be more than sufficient to enable ua to meet all the expenaea of the different govemmenta, and to extinguish our present debt. For my own part, I do not think that our expenses will be greater under Confederation than they are at present. If the Federal Government works well, our expenses will be less than they, are at present, fbr we shall be rid of factious sectional jealousies, and the system of equivalents, which have done so much injury to the country, and which have so greatly impeded the working of the 71 Government in tiines past. It is ridiculous to fancy that the Government of Canada can continue to work and maintain itself with a majority of one or two votes in this House, as we have witnessed for some years past ; for a government so placed is at the mercy of every member who has a local intereat to serve, or a particular favor to obtain ; and it is thus forced to grant favors which it would refuse if it were stronger. This was the cause of all the useless expenditure ; and almost every one of our governments has been in that position. (Hear, hear.) But under Confederation we may hope that the Federal Government will generally have the support of a large majority, and will con sequently not be compelled to yield to the demands of a small number of members. The resources at the disposal of the local governments being limited, they will practiae a degree of economy whioh will aerve as an example to the Federal Govemment itself Lower Canada, when left to heraelf, will be come highly proaperoua in,a few yeara — and perhaps Upper Canada alao — ^ provided her expensea be kept within bounda ; and I am convinced that her Local Govemment will be a model for the Federal Govemment ; for men forraed in the school of the Local Govemment, and who wUl be habituated to the practice of eoonoiny, will exert a salutary influence on the members of the Federal Legislature, to whom they will impart, and on whom they will impress, their ideas of economy and good government. (Hear, hear.) It -is well that the meana at the diapoaal of the local govern ments ahould ba limited, but at the aame time amply sufficient, for they must then feel that they cannot enter into too large expen diture, and they wUl adopt a perfect system of economy. (Hear, hear.) Before conclud ing I must pay a tribute of justice to the Britiah population of Lower Canada. We have alwaya gone along hand in hand like good friends, acknowledging each other's rights, and each party invariably making it a rule to accede to the just claims of the other. This will be our safety also under the Federal Government. For my part I should be sorry to see the present plan of Confederation fail, at all events through any action of ours, for that would justly disaatiafy the Britiah popu lation of this oountry, who desire to see it carried out, and to whom we should not re fuse it. We know that tbe Britiah have al ways done everything in their 'power to pro mote the material prosperity of the country, and it is our duty to respect them and to ac cede to their just demanda. With theae few 554 remarks, Mr. Speaker, I shall conclude by stating tbat I am in favor of the present plan of Confederation, not becauae I truat solely to the evidence of ray own judgment, but because I see at the head of the movement the moat enlightened men in the country, and becauae all the men of influence, all the men of property in the oountry, are in favor of the project. (Hoar, hear.) And I am convinced, notwithatanding all that may have been aaid, that the country ia aufficiently familiar with the project, and that tbe people now know all they will ever know about it. In every pariah there are men who arc the leadera of public opinion, and we know that theae men are in favor of tbia plan. We have all theae influ- encea with ua, and for my part I attach but little importance to the opinion expreaaed at certain public meetinga held to oppoae Con federation, or to tho petitiona preaented againat the project, for it ia alwaya eaay to obtain aignaturea to petitiona. And, more over, let any one compare the signatures to theae petitiona with the poU-booka kept at electiona, and it will be found that they are the namea of thoae who have always been op poaed to everything propoaed by the great national party, which haa ever represented the interests of Lower Canada. (Applause.) Mr. dufresne (of Montealm)— Mr. Speaker, I do not rise to speak on the ques tion now before the Houae, but aimply to expreaa my surpriae that after aix weeka of diacuaaion the Oppoaition pretend that we re fuse them time to discuss the measure, and that nevertheleaa they refuae to diacuaa it during the afternoon sittings, and will only take it up in the evening. For my part, I am prepared to vote at once upon this matter, and I believe that the question is perfectly mastered and well underatood by every mem ber of thia Houae. Why are the Oppoaition unwilling to speak during the aftemoon ait- tinga ? Their object in apeaking ia to kill time, rather than to diacuaa the merita of tho queation. And why is this? Is it because they are waiting for a few more peti tions, a few more namea, in order to protest against Confederation ? But we know the value of theae petitions — we know what the Rouges are, and that they will sign any and every petition, provided it be against the Gov ernment and its policy. The Opposition is like a sulky child ; if you refuae him a play thing he cries for it, and then if you offer it to him he refuses to take it. The Confeder ation is in reality the plan of thoae gentlemen themselves, and yet to-day they will not hear of it ; they reject it as something horrible. The country is watching them, and I hold the Opposition reaponaible for the loss of time we are now undergoing. If they have any reasona to advance, let them do so, but let us come to a vote. Their conduct will receive ita due reward at the handa of the people. (Hear, hear.) After the recess, — ¦ Hon. Mr. CAUCHON said— Mr. Speak er, when so many eloquent voices have spoken on the great question which occupiea ua ao aeriously, which stands preeminent over all othe.ra in the present situation, which pre-oc- cupies all minda, which agitatea to ita fartheat limits all British North America, which in- cludea within ita immenae acope two oceana and nearly half a continent, and which ia pregnant with the destinies of a great people and a great country — when the whole of the motives which can be advanced for and against the project have been so luminously discussed, when I myself have, elsewhere, at such con siderable length and so completely developed, with tbe feeble abilities which Providence has conferred upon me, the considerations which militate for or against the entirety and the details of the work of the Quebec Conference, I might — perhaps I should — have remained a simple spectator of these solemn debates, wMle awaiting the hour at which I should be per mitted to record my vote in accordance with my convictions. I considered, however, that as one of the oldest representatives of the people, after having spoken elsewhere, I should speak again within the parliamentary precinct, in order to accomplish to the letter my trust, and in order to obey that voice which has a right to command me. I have therefore come this evening in order to bring my feeble tribute of ideas to the decisive ordeal which is being accomplished. For my part I should have wished for the bringing forward of fewer personal questions, fewer criminations and recriminationa, fewer allu aiona to the paat; in a word, I ahould havo wished to aee the debate riaing at ita very outaet to the dignity of the queation itaelf, so as to place us in a position to judge of it on its own merits, without considering the names or the antecedents of thoae who may defend or may oppose it; I should have wished to see the conscience of our pub lic men in harmony with the public con science, and that under such grave circum stancea, men had forgotten that they were party men, in order to remember only their national character. (Hear, hear.) But sev- 555 eral of the speakers have not appreciated the situation in this manner ; they have not be lieved that it was of such importance as to ex act the development of great virtues and great sacriflces. One honorable gentleman amused himaelf by making ji'eucB de mots of doubtful merit on the complexion of two pamphlets ; another devoted a third of his long speech to the task of endeavoring to make his present position agree with hia antecedents, and the other two-thirds almost entirely to an effort to mako his opponents contradict themselves, without any regard to the question under dis cusion, imitating the Trojan hero of whom Virgil sings, and of whom Rousseau says : " Pouvait-elle mieux attendre De ce pieux voyageur. Qui, fuyant sa ville en cendre, Et le fer du Grec vengeur, Quitta lea mura de Pergame Tenant son file par la main. Sans prendre garde a sa femme, Qui se perdit en chemin? " * (Hear, hear, and laughter.) I acorn to de fend here my paat opiniona on Confederation. I wrote from conviction in 1858, juat aa I have written from conviction in 1865. My two worka are there — provoking diaeuasion, and throwing down the gauntlet to thoae who may deaire to take it up. It will soon be a third of a century since I commenced to write, and if I had no other recommendation to public attention than that of being the oldest journalist in the country, it appears to me that people ought, if they could, not to have allowed me to pasa without aaking me the reaaon of my preaent doctrines. How is it, then, that from the midst of tho de mocratic and oppoaition press not a single voice has been heard against the long commen tary of the Journal on the acheme of the Quebec Conference ? (Hear, hear.) Is it in ability ? Is it that talent is wanting among this phalanx which believes itself to have been specially ushered into existence in order to enlighten and govern the country ? Even if I had not written under a strong sense of duty, I should feel sufficiently strengthened by the high and disinterested approbation which greeted my humble work, to bear un- ¦* What conduct could she hope less flagrant From this good, holy, pious vagrant, Who, flying from his city's sack, The avengiug Greek upon his track, And leading by his hand his boy, Fled from the walls of burning Troy ? To help his wife he would not stay j So ahe was lost upou the way. disturbed the scratches and pin pricks of the honorable member for Lotbiniere, and, all un worthy though it may be, I should not heai tate to place it in the balance against, I will not say the episode, but tbe speech by which he seems to hope to arrive at the position of a statesman, to which he aspires. It is to be regretted also that the honorable meraber for Hochelaga kept himaelf almost constantly, during three hours and a half, in the lowest level of peraonal recriminations. Was he unable to raise himself to a more dignifled ground, or is it the natural level of his talents and his habits ? It seems to me that the occasion required more serious debate, larger views,' wiser appreciation drawn from more profound thoughts, a truer idea of the situa tion, greater truth in the statement of facts, greater exactness, more sequence, and more logic in the reasoning. But, instead of this, we have had a jumble of ideas and assertions, dates which give each other the lie, and a his tory sadly made and sadly told. The honor able gentleman challenged .me, and I must accept this challenge before entering upon the consideration of the question which is now before us. The honorable gentleman (Hon. Mr. Dorion) said the other evening : — This speech has been tortured and twisted in every possible senae. I have seen it quoted in order to prove that I was in favor of representa tion by population pure aud simple ; I have seen it quoted in order to prove that 1 was iu favor of the Confederation of the provinoes, and, in fact, to prove many other things, according to the necessities of the moment or of those who quoted it. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) The first time the question waa put to a practical teat was in 1858. On the occaaion of the resignation of the Maodonald-Cartier Government the Brq-wn- DoRioN Government waa formed, and it was agreed between the membera that the constitu tional question should be met and settled, either by meana of a Confederation of Upper and Lower Canada, or by meana of representation by popu lation, with checks and guarantees ensuring the religious faith, the laws, the language and the local institutions of each section of the country against any attack from the other. Pretended extracts fiom this document as of my speech have been given and falsified, in the press and elsewhere, to prove every kind of doctrine aa being my viewa ; but I can ahow clearly that the propoaition which it containa ia exactly the same aa thtit which was made in 1858, that ia to say. Confederation of the two provinces, with some joint authority for the management of affairs common to both. My apeechea have been late'y paraded in the ministerial journals ; they have heen distorted, ill translated, and even falsified, in order to induce the public to believe that I 556 formerly held opiniona different from thoae which I now hold. A French journal haa aaid " that I loudly called for a Confederation of the provin cea." But I shall say now, as I stated in 1856, and as I stated in 1861, that I have always been and am still opposed to Confederation. I find by the Mirror of Parliament, which contains a report of my speech, although an exceedingly bad report, that I atated iu 1861 — '' A time may come when it will be neceasary to have a Con federation of all the provincea j • * • but the time haa not yet come for auch a scheme." This was the speech which was misrepresented as meaning that I was calling loudly for Coufeder- tion, and that nothing would give me greater pleasure. And yet I explicitly stated ou that occasion that although a time might come when Confederation would become necessary, it was not desirable under actual circumstancea. The honorable gentleman already admits two things with which he has been charged — re presentation on the basia of population, with checka, guaranteea and aaaurances, and the Confederation of Upper and Lower Canada. We ahall now see if, in extending the field of my investigations, I shall not find that the honorable member for Hochelaga haa — to uae a felicitoua expreasion of the honorable mem ber for Lotbiniere — occaaionally enlarged the circle of hia conatitutional operationa. Here is what the honorable gentleman stated on the 6th July, 1858 ; the extract ia from the Ghhe, of which, at that period at least, he did not queation the veracity : — The honorable member for Brockville, the Honorable Postmaster General, the Speaker, and other members representing Lower Canadian counties iu the present Parliament, have voted for representation by population. Before long, it will be impossible to resist the demanda of Upper Canada in thia reapect. If representa tion hy population ia not granted now, it will in fallibly obtain it at a later period, but then without any guarantees for the protection of the French- Canadians. The repeal of the union, a Federal union, representation based on population, or aome other great change must iu all necessity take place, and for my part I am disposed to consider the question of representation by popu lation, in order to see if it may not be conceded with guarantees for the protection of the religion, the language, aud the laws of Lower Canadians. I am equally ready to take into consideration the project of a Confederation of the provinces, leaving to each section the administration of ita local affairs, as for example the power of regu lating ita own civil, municipal and educational lawa ; and to the General Government the ad ministration of the public works, the public lands, the post-office department, and commerce. I now quote the Mirror, the orthodoxy and veracity of which are denied by the honor able member for Hochelaga and his organs. The date of the report in the Mirror is the 3rd May, 1860 :— 1 hope, nevertheless, that a day will come when it will be deairable for Canada to unite federally with the Lower Provincea ; but the time ia not yet ripe for auch a project. And even if Canada should be favorable, the Maritime Provinces would not like to enter into it on account of our great debt. As to the joint authority, it ought to have the least authority. But those who are in favor of the Federal union of the pro-vinces ought to aee thia Federation of Upper and Lower Canada ia the best mode of creating a nucleus around which, at a later period, the Confedera tion of all the provinces might be formed. Thua the honorable member for Hochelaga had aU sorts of wares, just as the keeper of a " general store " possesses all sorts of mer chandise, great and smaU, on hia shelves. To some he seUs lace and to others cutlery. (Laughter.) Hon. Atty. Gen. CARTIER— It ia a 2Mt pourri. (Laughter.) Hon. Mr. CAUCHON — The houorable gentleman calla it a pot pourri. I think my comparison of it as a general atore is much more accurate and characteriatic. A MEBIBER — Music ia sold there. (Laughter.) Hon. Mr. CAUCHON— Yes, onhiaahelves loaded with aU sorts of goods, even old music is to be found. (Laughter.) Here there is a conflict of authorities as there is in relation to dogmatic questions between Pro testant and CathoUc writers ; and the Pays expressed itself as follows with respect to the Mirror of Parliament : — But here is the crowning of the edifice. The editor of the Journal finda strange things in the Mirror of Parliament, a publication whioh was never controlled by auy committee of the House, and the authority of which is worth less than that of a solidly founded newspaper such as the Globe, the Herald, the Chronicle, or the Journal de Quebec itself. It ia uotorioua that the reporters for this Mirror were not over particular as to their correctness, and that but little importance was attached to their reports ; so much ao that the sheet iu queation had only an ephemeral ex iatence. Without admitting the truth of the preten- siona of tbia organ of the honorable member for Hochelaga, I did not heaitate to foUow the honorable gentleman on the ground wbich he himaelf haa choaen, and I found the fol lowing in the Morning Chronicle of the 4th 557 May, 1860, to which he referred me for a more exact and veracious report — it being the same speech of the third May, a report of which I have read from the Mirror of Par liament. [Here the honorable gentleman read a French translation of the Chronicle's report.] And in order that there may be no doubt as to the exactness ofthe translation, with the exception of a word which I shall ex plain after reading the extract, I shall now quote the English text as reported in the Chronicle, viz. : — Mr. Dorion argued that when Lower Canada had the preponderance of population, complaints were of the inequality of the representation of that section. The union of Belgium and Hol land, which waa aomewhat aimilar to that at preaent exiating between Upper and Lower Canada was dissolved when it waa found it did not work advantageously to both conntries. He instanced a number of questiona on whioh it waa imposaible for Upper and Lower Canada to agree ; public feeling beiug quite diaaimilar — subjects pop ular in one section being the reverse in the other. He warned Lower Canada members, that when the time came that the whole of the representa tives from the western portion of the province would be banded together on the question, they would obtain representation by population, and secure the assistance of the Eastern Township members in so doing. He regarded a Federal union of Upper and Lower Canada as a nucleua of the great Confederation ofthe North American Provinces to which all looked forward. He con cluded by aaying he would vote for the reaolution, as the only mode by which the two aectiona oi the province could get out of the difficultiea in which they now are. He thought the union ought to be diaaolved, and a Federal union of the pro vincea would iu due time follow. The translation into French aaya, " que j'appelle de mes vceux," and the original text ia "to which aU looked forward." Thua, inatead of rendering the desire' for a Confed eration of the provinces, as his own he made it general. Instead of speaking for himself, he spoke for all, and as the whole comprises the part, in expressing the general thought he had most naturally expressed his own thought. (Hear, hear.) I take this opportunity of correcting this involuntary error of transla tion, and of saying that the honorable gentle man affirmed then tbat not only himself, but that all turned tbeir eyes from the mountain top towards the promised land of Confederar tion of all the British North American Prov inces. Did not the honorable member for Hochelaga say in his famous manifesto of the 7th Nov., 1864 :— ' The union which ia propoaed appears to me premature, and if it is not altogether incompati ble with our colonial state, it is at leaat without precedent in the hiatory of the coloniea. Aud the other day, in this House he stated : — Necessarily, I do not mean to say that I ahall alwaya be opposed to Confederation. The popu lation may extend itself, and cover the virgin foreata which exist between Canada and the Mari time Proviuces, and commercial relationa may increaae in such a manner as to render Confedera tion necesaary. It is, therefore, in every respect merely a question of time, and of expediency as between the majority of the House and the honorable member for Hochelaga. But he has not thought proper to tell us why Confederation of all the provinces of British North America is to-day a crime, an anti-national act, yet would have at one period, been good and accept able to Lower Canada. In the same manner he has also preserved silence on the character which Confederation should possesa, in order to merit the sanction of his word and his vote. Al ways to condemn, alwaya to deatroy, never to build up — this appears to be the motto of the honorable member for Hochelaga, and those who foUow his lead on the floor of this House. (Hear, hear.) They always keep to themselves the easiest share of sacri fice and patriotism — the task of casting blame and censure upon others. (Hear, hear.) Tbe honorable gentleman thinks that the union propoaed to us, that is to say Confederation, is without precedent in Colonial hiatory. He haa, therefore, not read the Federal hiatory, scarcely accomplished, of the colonies of Australia. But if it be true that the Con federation of the aix colonies is without pre cedent in Colonial hiatory, will the honorable gentleman at leaat tell us where he found hia precedent for the Confederation of the two provincea ? (Hear, hear, and laughter.) In osder to get out of the difficulty again thia time, the honorable gentleman will hardly deny that which he affirmed ao categorically only the other evening. It is evident that logic and a recollection of facts are not among the most prominent features of the honorable member's eloquence. Since he desires so much to establish that he was at all times in favor of a Confederation of the two Canadas as an alternative for representation by popu lation, it appears to me, and it ought to be evident to the House and to the country which we represent, that he should have stated the motives of such a deep and constant 558 conviction. Why conceal from ua the fruits of so many and such serious meditations? Why, setting aside the facile and convenient task of censor, does he not como forward as the architect of a political edifice capable of sheltering and protecting against tempest from without, our nationality and the institutions of which it is coraposed. It ia becauae " if critioiam ia eaay, art ia difficult." Thia truth enunciated by a poet, nearly two thouaand yeara ago, evidently belonga to all ages, and it finda, to-day more particularly, its application in the person of the honorable member for Hochelaga. (Hear, hear.) Tempora mutan tur et nos mutamur in illis — and behold, the honorable gentleman told us on the 16th February, 1865 ;— Kepresentatiou based upon population waa one of the least causea of this project. [And further on] : But, as aoon aa the Government found itself, after its defeat, obliged either to resign or to appeal to the people, gentlemen on the other side of the Houae, without there being the slighteat agitation on this question, prepared to embrace their most violent adversaries, and said to themselves : " We are going to forget our past differences, provided we can preserve our portfolios." Had tbe honorable gentleman, therefore, for gotten that which he atated with so much emphaaia and apparently with ao much con viction in 1858 : — The honorable member for Brockville, the Postmaster General, the Speaker, and other members repr. seating Lower Canadian counties, in the present Parliament, have already voted for representation by population. Before long, it will become impossible to resist the demand of Upper Canada in this respect. If repre sentation by pop'ilatiou be not granted uow, it will infallibly obtain it later, but then with out any guarantee for the protection of the French Canadians. Had he changed hia opinion in 1859 when he wrote conjointly with Hon. Meaars. Drum-* MOND, Dessaulles and MoGee: — It is with the settled conviction that an inevit able constit-tional crisis imposed upon the Liberal party of Lower Canada duties proportionate with the gravity ofthe circumstances in which the af- fiiis ofthe country were, that your Committee has undertaken the task with which it is charged. It has become evident to all those who, for several years back, have given their attention to daily events ; and above all to those who have had to min.:le actively with public affairs, that we are rapidly reaching a state of things which will necessitate modifications in the relationa ex isting between Upper and Lower Canada ; and a search for the means most likely to meet the dif ficulty; when it presents itself, has not failed to be the aubject of the moat serious consideration and frequent discussion in and out of Parliament. *#**«** The propoaition for the formation ofa Confed eration ofthe two Canadaa ia not a new one. It has frequently beeri agitated in Parliament and iu the preaa for several yeara past. The example of the neighboring states, in which the applica tion ofthe Federal system has shewn us how fit ting it was to the government of an immense ter ritory, inhabited by people of different origins, creeda, laws and customs, has no doubt suggested the idea; hut it was only in 1856 that this pro poaition waa enunciated before the Legialature by the Lower Canadian Opposition, aa offering, iu ita opinion, the only effective remedy for the abuaes produced by the present system. Lower Canada wishes to maintain intact the present union of the proviuces. If she will not consent to a dissolution nor to Confederation, it ia difficult to conceive what plauaible reasons she can advance for refusing representation by popu lation. Up to the present time ahe haa oppoaed it by alleging the danger which might result to aome of the institutiona which are most dear to her; but this reaaou would be no longer sustain able if it resisted a proposition the effect of which would be to leave to the inhabitants of Lower Canada the absolute control of those same insti tutions and to surround them with the most efficient protection which it is possible to im- agiue — that which would procure for them the formal dispositions of a written conatitution, which could not he changed withont their consent. It appears therefore that the only alternative which now offera itself to the inhabitanta of Lower Canada ia a choice between disaolution pure and simple, or Confederation on one tide, and representation by population on the other. Aud however opposed Lower Canada may be to representation by population, is there not immin ent danger tt:at it may be linally imposed upon it, if it resist- all measures of reform, the object of which is to leave to the local authorities of each section the control of its own interests and institutions. We should not forget that the aame authority which imposed on us the Act of Union, or which altered it without our consent, by repealing- the clause which required the concurrence of two- thirds of the members of both Houses in order to change the representation respecting the two sec tions, may again intervene to impose upon us thia new change. Tue customs, postal matters, lawa regulating currency, patents, copyrights, public lands, and those public works which are of common inter st to all parts of the country, should be the princi pal if not the only subjects of whioh the Fedeial Government would have the control, while all that related to purely local improvements, to edu- 559 cation, to the administration of justice, to militia, to lawa of property and internal policy, should be left to the local governments, the powers of which, in a word, should extend to all those aub jecta which do not come within the domain of the General Government. Your Committee believea that it ia eaay to prove that the expenaea absolutely necessary for the support of the Federal Government and the several local govemmenta ought not to exceed those of the preaent ayatem, while the enormoua indirect expenses occasioned by the latter syatem would be avoided by the new — both on account of the additional reatriotiona which the Conatitu tion would place upon all public expenditure, and of the more immediate responsibility of the aeveral officera of the Government towarda the people who are iutereated in reatraining them. The Federal Legislature having only to occupy itself with a limited number of affairs, might, in a short time every year, perform all necessary legislation ; and, as the number of members would not be very great, the expenaea of the Federal Governmeut would not, therefore, he a fraction of the present expenses, which, added to the cost of the local governments, if they were on the plan of those of the United States, which are the best and the most economically administered, could not exceed the figure of the present budget. The system proposed could not in any way diminish the importance of this colony, nor damage ita credit, inasmuch aa it offera the great advantage of being able to suit itself to any ter ritorial extension which circumstances might, in future, render desirable, without troubling the general economy of the Confederation. A. A. DoRiON, L. T. Drummosu, L. A. DeasAULLEa, T. D. McGee. Mr. PERREAULT — I riae to a queation of order. We have liatened with much plea aure to the excellent pamphlet which the hon orable meraber haa been reading out to us for half an hour past. I can understand that the honorable member having written a pam phlet in 1858 against Confederation, and an other in 1865 in favor of Confederation, now feels the necessity of writing a third pamph let to make the two others agree. But, as the honorable member for Montmorency pos sesses great powers of improvisation, the House, I think, ought not to be more indul gent to him than to other members, who are compeUed to speak under all the disadvanta ges of improvisation, which is always difficult. I have, therefore, to ask whether the honora ble member for Montmorency is in order in reading his magnificent speech from begin ning to end ? Hon. Attt. Gen. CARTIER — I see nothing extraordinary in this particular case. I see that my honorable friend the member for Montmorency has notes before him to which he refers, but I do not see any speech. The honorable member for Richelieu, with his eccentric genius, requires no notes when he makes those splendid speeches with which he regales us from time to time. I can easily understand that for such lucubrations no very lengthy preparation is necessary. (Laughter.) Hon. Mr. CAUCHON — Every one has not the genius of the honorable member for Richelieu. I know also that he is one of those who can talk a long time, because tbey do not always know what they are saying. (Laughter.) The honorable member may talk as long as he likes, without being afraid of my interrupting him, for his speeches can do no harm except to the person who utters them. (Laughter^ The speaker said it was not exactly in order for an honorable member to read a speech quite through, but he might make use of notes. Hon. Mr. CAUCHON— From all these extracts one muat conclude that either the honorable member for Hochelaga waa ready to aacrifice everything in order to attain power in 1858, or elae that in 1858, aa in 1859, he was deeply convinced that nothing but representation by population or a Federal union of the two Canadas could prevent tho storm then lowering on the horizon. We find therein, firatly, that we were rapidly reaching a atate of thinga which would neceasitate mod- ificationa in the relationa between Upper and Lower Canada ; aecondly, that the propoaal to form a Federation of the Canadaa waa not new ; thirdly, that the example of the neigh boring Statea, where the application ofthe Fed eral ayatem ahewed how auitable it waa to the govemment of an immense territory, inhabited by people of different origin, belief, laws and cuf toma, had auggeated the idea ; fourthly, tbat Lower Canada would not have any legi timate motive to reaiat representation based upon population if it refuaed a written Consti tution, under which it would have protection for and control of its institutiona ; fifthly, that it would be in imminent danger of see ing imposed upon it representation based upon population, if the Confederation of the two Canadaa were obatinately reaisted, and that thoae who impoaed the Union Act upon ua, and afterwards altered it to our detriment, could oblige us to accept the former ; sixthly, that cuatoms, currency, patents, copyrights, public lands, pubUc works and things of common 560 interest should be among the attributes of the Federal Parliament; seventhly, that the ex penses of the Federal and local govemments should not exceed those of the present system. Tbe following extract, taken from the same document, must be added to those already cited : — Your committee haa therefore become con vinced, that whether we consider the present wants -svith regard to the future of thia country, the substitution of a purely Federal Governmeut for the present legialative union, presents the true aolution of our difficulties, and that auch aubati- tution would free us from the inconveniences, while at the same time securing to ua all the advantagea which the preaent union may poasess. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) At the same period the Pays, with a conviction as profound as that of the honorable gentleman whose organ it is, thought that if we did not make some constitutional concessions we should not be able to resist the torrent of public opinion of Upper Canada, which threatened to break through the feeble barrier opposed to it by the Union Act of 1840. The honorable member for Hochelaga went on with his fears and his convictions to tho time when, by an accident unfortunate for the country, he again came into power. (Hear, hear.) It is not then merely the holding of a ministerial portfolio which is cast up to ua to-day. The time haa then arrived when conatitutional changes become necessary — the question of Confed eration under any form ia, therefore, not new. (Hear, hear.) To take the LTnited Statea, aa the honorable member for Hoche laga haa done, for example, I will say that the Federal syatem is auitable for the govemment of an immenae territory, inhabited by people of different races, lawa and euatoma, and con sequently more auitable to tbe Confederation of the Britiah North American Provinces than to the araaller one of Upper and Lower Can ada. Lower Canada, "unlesa she wish -re preaentation baaed upon population, ahould not reject a written Conatitution under which ahe haa protection for and control of her pecu liar inatitutions." (Hear, hear.) Finally, the expenses of the federal and local govern ments and legialatures will not exceed those of the present system. According to the ?iIontreal manifesto of 1859, the Federal Gov ernment and Parliament, having very little to do, ought to cost but little, so as to leave more to be done by the local legialaturea. Accord ing to the scheme of the Conference held at Quebec, the tables are turned, and it will be the local legislatures that, ha-ying but local affairs to attend to, wiU have to practise econ omy for the benefit of the General Govern ment. It is therefore evident that the hon orable member for Hochelaga is not niore of a conjuror than others. It is again stUl more evident that the honorable member would be less hostile to this project, had he been the author of it, or if he had been sitting on the right instead of on the left side of the House ; for after aU it is but a question of expediency, at least as regards principle. The honorable member for Hochelaga also told us : — ¦ I would never have attempted to make a change in the Constitution of the country without being convinced that the population of that section of province which I represented waa favorable to such a acheme. (Hear.) I do not wiah to doubt hia sin cerity, but has he not also said, " I know that tbe posaeaaion of power leads to deapotiam ?" Did he not aay, before the eventa of 1858, that were he in power, never, no never, would he conaent to govern Lower Canada with the help of an Upper Canada majority, and yet how did he act in 1862 ? How did he act on coming into power in 1863, after having ejected in such a loyal and aympathiaing man ner hia illustrious predecessor and chief, Hon. Mr. Sicotte ? (Hear, hear.) It was not deapotiam, but thirat for power, whicb made him adopt meana to attain that end, whioh I shall not designate by their proper name in tbis solemn debate. (Hear, hear.) How did he act ? Forgetting his declarations of 1858, he governed Lower Canada with a weak minority of its representatives, and as, according to his ideas, " power led to des potism," he ruled it with that rod of iron which tbe radicals alone know how to wield. But happily those days of painful memories are paaaed, and the level of the political aoil, which had sunk down, from some of thoae secret causes known to Providence alone, again suddenly rose up to escape from the over flowing torrents of demagogic principles which threatened society at large. What the Op position defeat the most in the project of the Quebec Conference, is its monarchical charac ter, as also those words found at the com mencement of that remarkable work : — The best interests and preaent and future prosperity of British North America will be pro moted by a Federal union under the Crown of Great Britain, provided such union can be effected on principlea just to the several provinces. In the Federation of the British North Ameri can Provinces, the system of government best adapted, under existing circumstancea, to pro tect the diveralfied interests of the several pro- 561 -vinces, and secure efficiency, harmony and per manency in the working of the union, would be a General Government, charged with matters of common intereat to the whole country ; and Local Governments for each of the Canadaa, and for the Provincea of Nova Scotia, New Brunawick and Prince Edward Island, charged with the control of local matters in their respective sections. Provision being made for the admis sion into the union, on equitable terma, of New foundland, the North-Weat Territory, Britiah Columbia, and Vancouver. We move in a different circle of ideas from that in which the Opposition moves. We wiah in America, as elaewhere, for a monarchy tem pered by parliamentary ayatem and miniater ial reaponaibility, becauae, without interfeiing with liberty, it rendera inatitutiona more solid and secure. We have all seen British democ racy holding its exiatence under the protec tion of the immutable »gia of Royal Majeaty, and exerciaing over the deatiniea of the coun try that salutary control which haa made Great Britain so rich, so powerful and so free. (Hear, hear.) We have also seen, not far from our own homes, that aame democracy -wrapped in the mantle of republicaniam, mov- iu'r at a rapid pace towarda demagogy, and from demagogy to an intolerable deapotiam. (Hear, hear.j We have aeen military rule extending over the entire face of the great neighboring republio, lately so proud of its popular institutions. And we have also seen that people, so proud of their liberty, humbly bend their necks to the sword of the soldier, allow their press to be muzzled, after ha-vinu condemned the ayatem of cenaorabip legalized in France, and anffer their writera to be im- priaoned without a proteat. (Hear, hear.) M. DE Tooqueville has lived too long ; his admirable work on democracy in America produces upon our minds, at the present day, only the effect of an heroic poem ; it ia the lale of Calypao, ao admirably aung by Fene- LON, but whioh fades away when you have closed Telemachus. (Laughter.) Instead of those institutions, framed with such mathe matical preciaion, and that mechaniam ao fin- iahed and so regular in its course, there is to be seen but violent and jerking motions, over- turnings, and the coUision and smashing of the component parts of the disconnected ma chinery of state ; instead of peace and har mony we find civil war on a gigantic scale, universal desolation, formidable battles, and the blood of brothers mingling in streams on the soU -F their common country. '(Hear, hear.) What has become of that race of giants who, after seven years of a glorious 72 struggle, laid the foundation, in 1783, of the American republic ? Disdaining to use the means employed by the smaller spirits of the age to grasp at the helm of the state, they have retired from the public arena, so as to live iu an honorable and dignified manner in private retirement — for the genius of the American people is not dead, and the country which still produces great judges and learned jurists could also, under another order of things, and in a different moral condition, give birth to new Washingtons, Franklins, Hamiltons, Adams, and Madisons. (Hear, hear.) They did not act wrongly then, those forty chosen men of British North America who came to Quebec to erect a new nation on the monarchical basia, and aa much aa posaible on the principles of the Parliament of Great Britain. It seeras to us that that authority was iraposing enough to merit the respect of men of much lesa experience, and much leas versed in the science of government. (Hear, hear.) And yet when the honorable member for Joliette asked with much reason of the honorable member for Lotbiniere why he did not speak of Confederation based upon mon archical principles, the latter gentleman an swered that he could not speak of what did not exist, and of what was absurd. He was like the French savant who, in 1836, proved by arguments not to be refuted, that it was imposaible to croaa the ocean with ateam as the motive power. But while he was thus fiounderiog through his powerful and leamed arguments, the Sirius waa ateaming majeati- cally across the Atlantic as if to mock the wiadom of acience. Facta are atubbom and poaitive thinga. (Hear, hear.) We are not here, like CoLUMBUS, looking for an unknown world ; yet the honorable member who went a a far back as the heroic times of Greece to find arguments againat all Confederations, who unfolded pompously to our gaze Roman his tory to prove to ua that what was strong and durable was formed piece by piece, and that even what is actually strong must also perish, as the Roman Empire had ended by succumbing under the weight of its own power ; who, bent on finding out Confederations in confusion, and in the midat of pronunciamentos, of movimen- tos and of ichauffourees, travelled through -with out aeeing them, thoae non-federative Spaniah- American republics, ao irritable and so agi tated ; who, to be faithful to this system, at tributed the flve hundred years' existence of the Swiss Confederation to every other cause than to the atability of its principle, and to the conservative and national character of its 562 inhabitants ; and who, in his enthusiaam for his doctrines, did not see that the European equilibrium would have been secure just as well by the existence of one or more distinct states as -with a Confederation in the Helvetic Mountains — he failed to aee not far from the native land of his ancestors, the noble Helvetia which conquered and maintained for five centuries its independence in the that he believes with that honorable il « that power engenders des- gentleman that p ^^B^^^ ^^^^^^ ^^ potism ^''*' '" fl,n of vouth and of the my public c"^«'-Jflhioh it inspires, in- STsertng'hftorlhtosuchinfl'ammable elements as National and religious preju- dices! I should have imit^ted^the ^exa.mple of the honorable member for Montreal lOr nve centuries its inuepeuueuce m uuc Oi tlic ii.~j~^^^ rnntnal diatrnot midst of the most terrible conflicts which Centre ; and in order to calm mutual distrust shook the aoil of Europe, which overturned thrones and transformed nations — be has not seen, in flesh and blood, a Confederation reat ing almost entirely on the monarchical prin ciple — the Germanic Confederation — of which Austria is the head, and for which this latter power and Prussia alone can decide questions of peace and war. (Hear, hear.) This waa preceded by the Confederation of the Rhine, which had found like it its elements and its mode of being in the ancient empire found ed by Charlehaqne, "the strongest hand that ever exiated," to use the aplendid expression of Ozanam ; the Germanic Em pire, a true confederation of princea, be coming reaUy independent in the course of centuries, and kings in their reapective states under the Imperial suzerainty. The Golden BuU promulgated by the Emperor Charles IV., in 1356, gives us some useful in formation on this subject. I would refer the honorable member for Lotbiniere to it. (Hear, hear.) But why should we ransack history to establish a fact whioh is as clear as day ? Ia it not sufficient to open the first dictionary at hand to know that the word " confederation " means simply " league," union of states or sovereigns, of nations, or even of armies for a common object. (Hear, hear.) The honorable member has there fore ill-chosen his time to be witty at the expenae of a man of sense. He declared himself by turna againat the Federal prin ciple and againat legialative unity. Appealing alternately to every prejudice to attain hia object, he aaid to the French-Canadian CathoUca— " Reaist Confederation, becauae it will leave you without protection in the Federal Govemment and Parliament," Theu, turning towarda Engliah Proteatants, and reading complacently to tbem an extract from Lord Durham's report, he aaid : — " Do not vote for Confederation ; you would be at the mercy of a French and Catholic majority in the Local Government and Parliament." (Hear, hear.) Although the direct reverae in every other respect of the honorable member for Hochelaga, his conduct proves I ahould have endeavored to fulfil my duty by recalling the eminently honorable, chris tian and civilising hiatory of the last quarter of a century. (Cheers,) But the honorable gentleman was evidently incapable of so doing. He had just emerged terrified from amidstthe pronunciamentos, the echauffourSes and the movimentos of the very civiUzed Spanish Confederations of Central America, and full of feverish agitation, he launched himself on spreading pinions towards the rain-bow and the aurora borealis. (Laugh ter.) We know what the rainbow is physically. It ia compoaed of dropa _ of water, which, placed at a certain angle facing the sun, refract and reflect its light with all the colors of which it ia compoaed (Laughter.) Aa to the aurora borealis, some attribute it to the reverberations of aolar light on the anowa of the North Pole, whither the honorable gentleman proceeded in order to find the vast territory with which he wishes us to form the Confederation domain. But tbe opinion most generally accepted is that it is, in a manner, some thing imponderable and unsubstantial. (Laughter.) Our people, seeing them moving in all directions with the most prodigious rapidity , rising, falling, doubling backward and forward on each other with auch inconceivable rapidity, have given them the true and picturesque name of dancing puppets (marionnettes'). (Hear, and laugh ter.) It ia, therefore, easUy seen that if they hold in horror the prejudicea which are pro ductive of so much evil, their mind is at least not ao torpid aa the hon. member for Lotbi niere believes, and it ia at least not neceaaary to arouso them in thia manner, (Hear, hear.) ^e know what invariably happena to aU theae luminous meteors. Jack o' the Lanterns and Will o' the Wisps having complacently expanded theraaelves on the confines of the infinite horizon, after having gambolled at their eaae, becorae serious and soleran — they are aeized with the ambition of aacending to the zenith. But as they have, " with the stature of a giant, but the strength of a 363 child,'' they soon diminish and disappear, to be, in the words of Bossuet, " qu'un je ne sais quoiqui n' a plus de nom dans aucune langue (a thing which has no name in any tongue)." (Hear, hear.) On close exami nation, however, it would be seen that the hon. member was not so sarcastic as might have been at flrst supposed, when he suggested the iris as the emblem of the new Confederation. The rainbow, from a figura tive point of view, is the emblem of alliance, and consequently of strength and durability — it is the symbol of peace and calm after a long day of storm and tempest — it is the pledge of promise that, in future, the flood-gates of demagogy will no longer be opened on the country, to leave upon its surface that morbid sediment, the fetid odors of which still offend the moral sense of the people after their unwholesome waters have retired. (Cheers.) It is the unity of many-colored rays which, combined, produces light and heat and fecundity. I should, therefore, advise those who will be charged at a future day with our new destinies to adopt the rainbow as our national emblem, and to give credit to the hon. member for Lotbiniere, who will doubtless be astonished to find that he has been so wonderfully inspired. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) If there were never to be any mutual confidence among men ; if we were for ever destined to fear and suspect each other reciprocallv, we would be obliged to renounce all idea of government as well as all the relations of social life. The very laws which protect persons and property would be without value, because they are expounded by men. (Hear, hear.) For tunately auch ia not the case, aa our own hiatory aufficiently proves. Before the union, the parliamentary majority in Lower Canada was Catholic, and although it waa long involved in a struggle wirh power, waa it ever guilty of an injuatice towarda the Proteatant minority? (Hear, hear.) On the contrary, did it not emancipate tbe latter, civilly and religiously, and did it not give that minority privileges which it had not hitherto poaaeaaed ? If our people are inflexibly attached to our faith, it ia a'so full of toleration, of good-will towards those who are not of the same belief. Since the union the parts have changed. Protes tantism dominates in the government and in the legialature, and yet has not Catholicity been better treated, and has it not been better developed, with more liberty and more prosperity than under the regime of the Con stitution of 1791. (Hear, hear.) Living and laboring together we have learned to know, to respect, to esteem each other, and to make mutual concessions for the common weal. We Catholics have therefore no fear of the ill-will of a Protestant majority in the Federal Government and Legislature, and we are certain that the Protestants of Lower Canada need not fear for themselvea in the local legislature. (Hear, hear, and cheers.) The hon. member for Hochelaga has declared that he was willing to accord to the Protest ants the guarantees of protection which tiiey sought for the education of their children ; but in this ho has been forestalled by the Quebec Conference and by the unanimous sentiment of the Catholic population of Lower Canada. If the present law be in sufficient, let it be changed. Justice demands that the Proteatant minority of .Lower Canada shall be protected in the same manner as the Catholic minority of Upper Canada, and that the rights acquired by the one and the other shall not be assailed either by the Federal Parliament or the local legislatures. (Hear, hear.) This is all I feel called upon to say, on this occasion, respecting a question which will again arise in the course of the debate. The hon. member for Lotbiniere has attacked the scheme as being too federal, and the hon. member for Hochelaga has condemned it as not being sufficiently federal, and as tending too much towards unity. Neither one nor the other is strictly accurate — it is not ab solute unity, nor the federal principle in the American sense. In the American Confed eration, supreme authority proceeded at the outset from the delegation of the atates, which nevertheless divested themselves of it forever — at least according to the opinion of the Northern jurisconsults, who hold that no state is free to break the compact of 1788. In the soheme of the Quebec Conference there was no delegation of the supreme authority, either from above or below, inas much as the provinces, not being independ ent states, received, their political organiza tions from the Parliament of the Empire. There are only distinct attributes for the one and the others. (Hear, hear.) Unity does not obtain in an abaolute aense, becauae local intereata and inatitutiona required in tho local conatitutiona, guarantees and protections which they feared they would not find in the united Parliament and Government. But it is aa complete aa poaaible,inaamuch aa unity gives to institutions chances of duration, and an initiatory force whioh is not given, which 564 cannot be given, by confederacies in which authority is scattered, and where it is con sequently without value and without real exiatence. Every conatitutional mode of existence has ita advantagea ; but aasuredly that state of exiatence which gives perman ence and stability to institutions should be preferred to others. Let us bear in mind that the Constitution of the United Statea has been b-jt a compromise between atate sovereignty and tbe need of a auprerae authority to enaure tho working of the atate machinery, and that it waa not perfect even in the opinion of ita authora. In order to prove thie atateraent, I ahall call to my aasiat ance words of greater weight than my own — thoae of Joseph Storey, probably the greateat conatitutional authority of the United Statea : — Any survey, however alight, of the Confeder ation will impress the mind with the intrinsic difficulties which attended the foi-mj,tion of its prin cipal features. Itia well known that upon three important pointa touching the common rights and intereaU of the several statsa, much diversity of opinion prevailed, aud many animated discussions took place. ,The first was as to the mode of voting in Congress, whether it should be by states or according to wealth or population. The second, as to the rule by which the expenses of the Union should be apportioned among the atates. And the third, as has been already seen, relative to the disposal of the vacant aud unappro priated lands in the western territory. But that which strikes us with most f,,rce is the increasin ¦- jealousy and watchfulness everywhere betrayed m respect to the powers to be conhded to the General Government. For this sevtiral causes may be assigned. The colonies had been long engaged in struggles against tUe superintending authority of the Crown, and had practically felt the inconveniences of the restrictive legislation of the parent country. These struo-o-les had naturally led to a general feeling of resis tance of all external authority, and these in conveniences to extreme doubts, if uot to dread of any legialation, not exclusively originating iu their domestic assemblies. They had, as yet, not felt the impojtauce or necessity of union among themselves, having been hitherto con nected with the British sovereignty in all their foreign relations. What would be their tate, as separate and independent oommuuilies ; how far their interesta would coincide or vary fiom each other aa such ; wbat would be the effects of the union upon their domestic peace, their territorial interests, their external commerce, their political aecurity, or their civil liberty, were points to them wholly of a speculative character, in regard to which varioua opinions might be entertained, and various and even oppoaite conjectures formed, upon grounds apparently of equal plausibility. Nothwithstanding the declaration of the articlea, that the union of the statea waa to be perpetual, au examination of the powera confided to the General Government would easily satisfy us that they looked principally to the existing revolu tionary state of thinga. The principal powera reapected the operationa of war, and would he dormant in times of peace. In abort, Congreaa iu peace wca posaeased of but a delusive and shadowy aovereignty, with little more than the empty pageantry of office. They were, indeed clothed wil h the authority of sending and receiving ambassadors ; of entering into treaties aud allian ces ; of appointing courts for the trial of piracies and felonies on the high seaa ; of regulating the public coin ; of fixing the atandard of weights and measures ; of regulating trade with Indians, of establishing post offices; of borrowing money and emitting bills on the credit of the United States ; of ascertaining and appropriating the aums neceasary for defraying the public ex penses, aud of disposing of the western ter ritory. And moat of these powers required for their exercise the ass-nt of nine states. But they possessed not the power to raise any revenue, to levy any tax, to enforce any law, to secure any right, to regulate any tra^ie, oi even the poor prerogative of commanding means to pay its own ministers at a foreign court. They could contract debts, but they were without means to discharge them. They could pledge the public faith, but they were incapable of redeeming it. They could enter into treaties, but every state in the union might disobey them with impunity. They could contract alliances, but could not command men or money to give them vigor. They could insti tute courts for piracies and felonies on the high seas, but they had no means to pay either the judges or the jurors. In short, all powers which did not execute themselves were nt the mercy of the states, and might be trampled upon at will with impunity. One of our leading writera addreaaed the following atrong language to ihe public :— - By this political compact the United States iu Congress have exclusive power for the following purposes, without being able to execute one of them : they may make and conclude treaties, hut can only recommend the observance of them. 'Ihey may appoint ambassadors, but cannot de fray even the expenses of their tables. They may borrow money iu their own name on the faith of the union, but cannot pay a doUar. They may coin money, but they cannot purchaae an ounce of bullion. They may make war, and determine what number of troopa are necessary, but cannot raise a single soldier. In short, they may declare everything, but do nothing. Strong aa thia language may aeem, it has no coloring beyond what the naked truth would justify. Washington himself, that patriot without stain or reproach, speaks, in 1786, 565 with unusual significancy on the same sub ject. ''In aword," says he, "the Confed eration appears to me to be little more than a shadow without the substance, and Con gress a nugatory body, their ordinancea being little attended to." Tha aame aentimenta may be found in many public doeumenta. One of the moat humiliating proofa of the utter inability of Congreaa to enforce eveu the excluaive powera vested in it, is to be found in the argumentative circular addreaaed by it to the several states, in April, 1787, entreating them in tbe moat supplicating manner to repeal auch of their laws as inter fered with tbe treaties with foreign nations. " If in theory," says the biographer of Wash ington, " the treaties formed by Congress were obligatory, yet it had been demonstra ted that in practice that body was absolutely unable to carry them into execution." — In thia state of things, the embarrassments of the country in its financial concerna, the general pecuniary diatreaa among the people from the ex hausting operations of the wa,r, the total prostra tion of commerce and the languishing unthriftinesa of agriculture, gave new impulses to the already marked political divisions in the Legislative Councils. Efforta were made on our aide to re lieve the pressure of the public calamities by a resort to the issue of paper money, to tender lawa, and instalment and other lawa, having for their object the postponement of the payment of private debt, and a diminution of the public taxes. Ou the other side, public as well aa private credi tora became alarmed from the increased dangera to property, and the increased facility of perpe trating frauds, to the destruction of all private faith, and credit. And they insisted atrenuoualy upon the eatablishment of a govemment aud sys tem of laws which should preserve tbe public faith and redeem the country from that ruin which always followa upon the violation of the principlea of justice and the moral obligation of contracta. " At length," we are told, " two great parties were formed in every atate, which were diatinctly marked and which pursued distinct ob jecta with systematic arrangement." The wonder indeed ia, not under auch circumstances, that the constitution should have encountered the most ardent opposition, but that it should ever have been adopted at all by the majority of the atates. In the convention itself which framed it, there waa a great diversity of judgment, and upou some vital subjects an intense and irreconcilable hostil ity of opinion. It ia underatood that, at aeveral perioda the convention were upon the point of breaking up without accomplishing anything. On the other hand, if the votaries of the national govemment are fewer in number, they are likely to enlist in ita favor men of ardent ambition, comprehensive views and powerful geniua. A love of the union, a senae of ita importance — nay, of its necessity to secure permanence and safety to our political liberty ; a conaciouanesa that the powers of the national constitution are eminently calculated to preserve peace at home aud dignity abroad, and to give value to propertv, and system and harmony to the great interests of agriculture, commerce and manufactures ; a consciousness, too, that the restraints which it imposes upon the states are the only efficient means to preserve public and private justice, and to enaure tranquil lity amidst the conflicting intereata and rivalriea of the atatea — theae will doubtless combine many sober and reflecting minds in ita support. If to this number we are to add those whom the larger rewards of fame or emolument or influence con nected with a wider sphere of action may allure to the national councils, there ia much reason to presume that the union will not be without reso lute friends. The eventa now occurring in the United Statea aufficiently prove, 1 think, that the feara ofthe illuatrioua foundera of the Union were not without aome foundation. The acheme of Conatitution whioh ia aubmitted to ua ia alao a compromiae, but a compro miae in the beat conditiona of exiatence, and in thoae leaat dangerous to the stability and the atrength of the nation to which it ia to give being. Unity moves more at ease, and the checks placed therein for the benefit of the sectiona are placed in auch a manner aa not to obatruct the general action. It ia uot ao much against the Federal principle that the greater number of the arguments of the hon, member for Hochelaga are directed. For him it ia a party queation whieh he puts to himself in thia manner : — " How ahall we find ourselves, my frienda aud myaelf, in this Confederation ? Shall we be strong or weak ? May we hope to regain power, or shall we be lost like so many drops of water in the ocean ?" In order to convince the House that I have correctly appreciated the motive of tbe bon. gentleman's ( Hon. Mr. Dorion's) opposition, I shall quote from his speech of the 16th inst. : — Hon. Mr. Dorion — But, sir, I may be asked; admitting all that — admitting that the scheme now submitted to us is not that which haa been promised ua, what difference will the immediate admiasion of the Provincea into the Confederation make ? I will try to explain it. When the miniaters conaented to the votes in the Conference being taken by provinces, they gave a great ad vantage to the Maritime Provinces. This mode of procedure had for ita result the moat conserva tive measure that was ever submitted to the House. The membera of the Upper House ars no longer to be elected, but nominated — and by whom ? By a Tory or Conservative Government for Canada, by a Conservative Government in Nova Scotia, by a Conservative Government in Prince Edward Island, and by a Conaervativa 566 Government in Newfoundland, the only Liberal Government concerned in the nomination of the Upper House being that of New Brunawick, where there is a Liberal Administration, whose fate dependa on the result of the elections now taking place in that province. A aimilar acheme would never have been adopted by the Liberal membera from Upper Canada, the people of which aection, to the number of 1,400,000, with those in the Lower Province, making in all 2,500,000, have been controlled by the 900,000 people of the Maritime Provinces. Have we not been told in aet terms that it was the Lower Provinces which did not want an elective Legialative Council ? If, inatead of inviting to a Conference the delegatea of the Lower Provinoes, our Government had done what it engaged to do, namely— had itself prepared a Constitution, it would never have dared to draw up a proposal like this now laid hefore us ; it would never have proposed a Legis lative Council nominated for life, with a limited membership, and which has to be named by four Tory Governments. Reckoning 15 to 20 yeara, aa the average of the time each Legialative Councillor will hold hia aeat, a century would elapae before ita composition could be entirely changed 1 We will have, thus, a Legislative Council lasting for ever — at least as regards this, and the next generation — controlled by the in fluence which to-day preponderates in our Govern ment and in those of the Maritime Provinces ; and are we going to believe, as the present docu ment promises ua, that a government like that which we poasess now, will employ itself in get ting the Opposition represented in the Legislative Council? (Hear, hear, and laughter.) I thank the delegates for their solicitude aa regards the Oppoaition, hut I rely but little on their promises. Did we not hear the Honorable Attorney General Weat say the other day, turning towards his sup porters : "If I had the recommending of the nominations, I would advise the choice of the most qualified — but of course, of my own party. (Hear, hear.) It would be done in thia way, sir ; and, if thia precioua acheme ia put into operation, we shall have a Legialative Council divided in the following manner : for Upper Canada, we ahall probably have Liberals in the proportion of 3 to 9, for I suppose that the honorable member for South Oxford (Honorable Mr. Brown) has made enough sacrifices to deserve at least this conces sion, and as his friends constitute a fourth of the Executive Couucil, I suppose we shall have also one-fourth of the Executive Councillors for Upper Canada, Liberals. Hon. Attorney General Macdonald — Hear, hear. Hon. Mr. Holton — Exactly 25 per cent. Hon. Mr. DoBioN — Yes ; precisely 25 per cent. Besidea, we shall have for Nova Scotia ten Con servatives, from Prince Edward Island four more, and four from Newfoundland. Thua we are to have eighteen Conservatives from the Lower Provinces, who, added to the thirty-six from Canada, will make fifty-four Conservatives, againat twenty -two Liberals, supposing thatthe ten Legislative Councillors from New Brunawick will all be Liberala, Now, supposing that the average of deaths amounted to three per cent, in a year, it would need a term of thirty years to bring about a change in the character of the majority of the Council, taking it for graated that the additions which might be made to it would be taken from the ranks of the Liberal party. Yet that would be acarcely possible. In aome of the Lower Provincea there would be from time to time Con aervative Govemmenta, and there might be also a Conaervative Government in Canada. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) And the preaent gen eration will have paased away hefore the opiniona of the Liberal party will have any in fluence in the divisiona ofthe Legislative Council. Mr. Mackenzie — That makea no difference. Hon. Mr. Dorion — The hon. member for Lambton aaya that makea no difference I The honorable member % ready to acoept everything, but for those who are not so well diapoaed, the difference would be that we would he bound by thia conatitution which will permit the Legislative Council to throw obstacles in the way of all measures of reform wished for hy the Liberal party. If the hon. member for Lambton thinks that that makea no difference, I -will take the liberty of differing from him, aud I think that the Liberal party generally will differ from him also. The Government told us that they were obliged to consent to the introduction of certain nieasures in the project of Confederation which did not altogether please them, so as to come to an understanding with the Lower Province dele gates, and that they bound themselves to cauae the scheme to he adopted by this House without amendment. Does the hon. gentleman not see a difference now ? If the two Canadas were the only interested parties, the majority would act as they pleased, would examine minutely the Constitution, and erase all measures which did not suit them, and a proposition such aa that relative to the Legislative Council would have no chance of being adopted— it ia too abort a time ago since this Houae voted, by a crushing majority, the substitution of an elective Council for a Council nominated by the Crown. In fact, the Clouncil named by the Crown had so faUen in public estimation — I do not say so on account ofthe men who composed it, butatUl such was the fact, that it exercised no influence ; itwas even difficult to assemble a quorum of membera — a change had become abaolutely necessary, and up to the present time the elective system has worked well —the elected members are equal in every respect to those nominated by the Crown. Well it ia juat aa public attention commencea to be beatowed upon the proceedinga^of the Upper House, that we are to change its conatitution to give it the place of the same one we ao abort a time ago condemned. I aaid same Constitution— I mis take, Mr. Speaker, we want to substitute for the present Constitution one much worse than the old one, and one for which it is impossible to find a precedent. 567 Here, then, is the solution of the enigma; here, then, is the reason why Federal union is worthless — without us there is no country — itisnolongerthedoctrine : "Let thecountry perish rather than aprinciple he abandoned," but "let tJie country perishrather than a polit- icalparty should succumb." It is less absurd, but at the same time less noble, and if it be not cynical in words, it is so undouDtedly in conception. (Hear, hear.) What! must we res-ist in future all progress, all strength and national greatness, solely because a party, which exhausted itself almost at its birth, thinks it cannot discern in the new order of things the stepping stones to power ? But is it our fault that the doctrines and the acts of that party are not in accordance with the feelings of the country, an* that the country persists in discountenancing them? The hon. member for Hochelaga would hope more for his party in a Confederation of the two Canadas only ; he has aaid to himaelf, no doubt, " In thia laat order of things the increase of the Upper Canadian repreaentation would augment the Radical majority of Upper Canada, and that majority, added to the small minority I command, would have placed me in a position to rule Lower Canada as I have already done, against its will, and in spite of my former declarations." Either he must think us very blind, or else he must expect that placing the question in a party point of view, he would rally around him only those who, leaving aside all na tional sentimenta, follow him nevertheless. (Hear, hear.) But the extract which I have just now read brings us naturally to the question of an elective Legislative Coun cil, to which system the honorable member for Hochelaga grants a great degree of superiority over the nominative one. Just now he told us that the Council nominated by the Crown had fallen into imbecUity, and had lost public respect. (Hear, hear.) Now, to prove how logical he is, he tells us : It ia true that the Houae of Lorda, Conaer vative though it be, finda itaelf removed from aU popular influence; but ita numbera may be increaaed upon the recommendation of the reapon sible adviaera of the Crown, if auch a meaaure were to become neceaaary to obtain the concur rence of both Houses, or to prevent a collision between them. The position which ita membera occupy in it eatabliahea a aort of compromise between the Crown and the popular eleraent. But this new House, after Confederation, will be a perfectly independent body ; its members will be nominated for life, and their number cannot be increased. How long wiU this syatem work without bringing about a collision between the two branchea of the Legialature ? Let us suppoae the Lower Houae composed in a great part of Liberals, for how long a time would it submit to an Upper Houae named by Government ? Be kind enough to obaerve, Mr. Speaker, that under the old ayatem, the Legialative Council poaaeased the aame elementa of exiatence aa the House of Lords, and that the Crown could increase its numbers at need ; it augmented it in 1819, as it threat ened to augment the House of Lorda in 1832. Obaerve, again, that it ia preciaely this control exercised by the Crown over the Upper House that the hon. gentleman found so fatal to legislation previous to 1S56. But there ia a more rational manner of appreciating the part auatained by the House of Lords in the British Constitution. No one denies to the Sovereign the abstract right of increaaing at will the Houae of Lords ; but such right has never been exer cised but for the purpose of rewarding men distinguished for great national services ! and when, in 1832, William IV. granted Earl Grey the tremendous power to swamp the representative body of the great landed nobility, it waa becauae the country waa moving with rapid atrides towarda revolu tion, and becauae there remained to the Sovereign but two alternativea, either to lessen the moral weight of the House of Lords, or to see his own throne knocked to pieces from under his feet. (Hear, hear.) To convince the House that I do not exag gerate, I will read an extractfrom Lingard's History of England : — It ia known that juatice and common aense were wounded by the electoral system of England, when such a rock, such a building, such a hamlet belonging to noble families sent representatives to Parliament, where citiea of 100,000 inhabi tanta were uot represented, where corporations of twenty or thirty individuals had a right to elect members for large cities, and ao forth. All thia waa the conaequence of a aocial order, founded on privilege, and in which property was the mis tress of all power. To reform the electoral system waa then to make an attempt not only on the Conatitution, but society. And the Tories offered a desperate resistance. Such was their attitude, that the Ministry proclaimed Parliament dissolved ou the llth May, 1831, a course which waa joyfully welcomed by the people. New elec tiona were had, and resulted in a ministerial majority. The Reform Bill was adopted by the Commons, but the House of Lorda threw it out by a majority of forty-one votes. The intel ligence of thia reault was received throughout the three kingdoms with the moat lively agitation. 568 Petitions were sent in from all parts,praying for the upholding of the Ministry, and for a new creation of peers ; reform associations were formed, and aerioua disturbances took place at London, Bris tol, Nottingha. Ac. Parliament waa ororogued, and at ita re-assembling the Refoi Bill waa •jgain preaented with aome alte .jona. The Commous accepted it; it pissed a first and a second reading in the House of Lords, but the third reading was adjourned, and Wellington and seventy-four peers protested. Agitation became almost univeraal ; societies met, petitions took a threatening character ; everything was tending towards armed insurrection. England never before presented such a spectacle. Meantime the Miniatry had demanded of the king a new creation of peers to change the majority of the Upper Chamber. It was refused, — they immediate ly resigned on the 9th May, 1832. The Duke of Wbllikoion and his friends were then called in to form a Minist y ; he tried it several days in vain. The nation was astir ; whole aimies were being created ; riots broke out everywhere ; the lives of the principal Tories were threatened, and the House of Commons seemed disposed to sup port a measure which would have overturned both the Government and the aristocracy. The King called back the Grey Ministry, and the Bill was presented to the House of Lords for a third reading, on which the Tories, knowing that the Cabinet had decided to create an > unlimited number of peers, so as to obtain a majority, abstained from attending the discussion, and the BiU passed by 106 votes against 22. The Par liament was immediately dissolved, and new elec tions took place according to the new electoral law, and on the 5th of February, 1833, the first Reformed Parliament was opened. It muat then have been a real revolution, thia nomination of one hundred new peera, a revolution aa real aa that which menaced the Throne; and do we not feel perauaded that if one day our Federal Legialative Council were to place itaelf obatinately and systematically in oppoaition to popular will, matured and strengthened by ordeala, it would not be awept away by a revolutionary torrent auch aa threatened to sweep away the Houae of Lords in 1832 ? Thia Council, limited as to numbers, becauae the provinces inaiat on maintaining in it an equilibrium without which tbey would never have con sented to a union, this Council, sprung from the people — having the aame wanta, hopea and even paaaiona, would reaiat lesa the pop ular will in America, where it is so prompt and active, than could the House of Lords in England, where the maaaea are inert be cause they have not political rights ; reason tella us thus becauae they would be a leas powerful body socially or politically. The honorable member for Hochelaga has spoken to us of the elected senate of Bel gium, which he aaya works admirably. But let ua examine the manner of its conatruc tion and the reaaona of ita organization. We find in a note under the 53rd article of the Belgian Conatitution, aection 2 of the Senate in Havard's Public and Administrative Law, vol. I : — 89. Elected by the People. — Three principal opinions divided the Congress on the question of the senate. One wanted no kind of aenate. Another wished the senate named with or with out conditions, by the head of the state ; and another wished for the senate but elected by the people. These two last opiniona carried the exia- teuce of the Chpmber to be admitted, but it was difficult to fi.x the majority on the mode of nomi nating the senators* Among the members who desire a senate, the greater number sustained nomination by the king, aa being more in harmony with the nature of the institution : but those who wished only one Chamber directly elected heing in despair, and in order to popularize an institu tion which they accused of not being sufficiently so, joined with those favoring senators elect, named without the intervention of the royal power, so that this opinion prevailed. The senate and ita mode of exiatence was not, there fore, the result either of the same opinion or of the same majority. The central section proposed, with a majority of sixteen against four, nomina tion by the king without presentation and in un limited number. The question was discussed at the aitting of the loth, 16lh aud 17th December. JSIomiuation by the king waa rejected by 96 against 77. Two leading opiniona still divided the partisans of election. Oue would confide it to the ordinary electoral colleges, and othera to the Provincial Council or Sratea. " We deaire," aaid M. Blargxieb in proposing the last mode of election "a neutral power which can resist the dangers which might result from the preponder ance of the head of the state or from an elective Chamber. It ia, therefore, necessary that this power should emanate neither from the aame elementa as the elective Chamber, nor from the chief of thestate." To confide election to a parti cular class, was said on the other side, is to create privileged electors with a double vote, aud to in troduce iuto our country all the inconveniences of the division of electors which has just heen abolished in France. Provincial Councils should, moreover, be administrative bodies. The aystem of article 53 was adopted by 136 votea againat 40. The opinion which waa in favor 0° only one Chamber, and oonaequently only one mode of election, delermiued the majority. Thua we find that the conatitution of this aenate ia a compromiae aimilar tj that of the Federal Government of the United States. But let us go on a little further : — In order to be elected and to continue to he a senator, one qualification, among others, is to 569 pay, in Belgium, at least one thouaand florina of direct imposts, patents included. Ia not this laat proviaion of the Belgian Conatitution a hundred times more con servative than all the provisions of thia acheme, which tbe honorable member con- demna ? What ! no one can be a aenator in Belgium without paying $500 direct taxes, over and above indirect taxes, muni cipal and local impositions of all sorts. And the honorable member for Hochelaga calla that a popular Houae ! Who but men powerful and rich in titles and fortune can enter it ? (Hear, hear.) Hon. Mr. DOEION— What is the quali fication of the electors of the Belgian House of Representatives ? Is it not much higher than elaewhere ? Hon. Mr. CAUCHON— It ia the same for both Houses. And this ia an argument againat the honorable meinber ; for if, in a country like Belgium, in which every fourth person you meet is a beggar, it has been found requisite tomake the elective franchise and the electoral qualification of the senators so high, it is a proof that he has made a bad selection of examples ; it is a proof that the tendencies of Belgium are conservative. Why, then, should we adopt another course in Canada, where there is not one beggar in a thousand inhabitants ? Hon. Mr. EVANTUREL — Will the honorable member for Montmorenci allow me to interrupt him in his argument in relation to the qualifications and ap pointment of the legislative councUlors. Like him, I am quite of opinion that the con servative element ought, of necessity, to be the basis of the Legislative Council, to coun terbalance tbe popular element. This princi ple governed the constitution of the House of Lords in England, that of the Legialative Council in Belgium, and that of every well- organized representative government. It is that element of conservatism which I desire to see introduced into the Constitution of the Confederation now before us ; but the hon orable member for Montmorency will aUow me to remark that the whole of his argument applies only to the antagonism which might arise between the two branches of the legisla ture, in a monarchical government like that of Belgium, which is not based on a Federative system like that now submitted to us by the Government. But wc have not only to avoid the differences which might arise between the conservative and the popular elements; 73 we have also to protect the rights of the several provinces which are to form part of the proposed Confederation. That is the all important question wc have to con sider. We have accorded the principle of representation based upon population in the House of Commons of the Federal Govern ment, and that is without doubt a great sacri fice ; but we ought only to make so important a concession on the condition that we shall have equality of representation in the Legisla tive Council, and tho right reserved to our selves to appoint our twenty-four legislative councillors, in order that they may be respon sible to the public opinion of the province and independent of the Federal Government. — Without this essential guarantee I affirm that the rights of Lower Canada are in danger. For my part I am ready, on behalf of Lower Canada, to give up her right to elect directly her twenty-four legialative counciUors, al though the retention of the elective principle might perhaps be the surest means of pre serving our institutions; but I am anxious that the new Conatitution now proposed should give ua adequate guarantees that the legialative counciUora to be appointed for life sbould, at all events, be selected by the Local Government of Lower Canada, whioh would be responsible to the people. These not ill-grounded sources of anxiety I should like to see removed. I would bespeak the earnest attention of the honorable member for Montmorency to this point, which ia of the very higheat importance fo ua Lower Cana diana ; and I hope that he will pardon me for having interrupted him; and that he will be in a poaition to give me auch an anawer as will diaaipate the anxiety which I am aware haa been evinced on thia aubject. Hon. Mr. CAUCHON— Tbe honorable gentleman haa not understood me ; my object has not been to attack the representative ayatem of Belgium aa being too conaervative ; on the contrary I uae it aa an argument iu my favor, because the qualification there is so high, that hardly one in six thousand can be found who can aspire to tbe post of senator. Parties having been unable to come to any under standing at the time of the revolution of 1830, and neither the hereditary peerageor the life peerage having been able to prevail, the moat conservative principle next to theae was adopted, viz., that of a large property qualifi cation. AU thoae who have drawn up conati tutiona, either theoretical or for practical pur poaea, have never omitted to provide counter poises to prevent, on the one hand, too 570 precipitate and hasty legislation, and on the other hand tbe encroachment of the power of the executive. In our Conatitu tion it ia the duty of the Legialative Council to exercise the conaervative influence, and to modify the legialation too energetic and too full of outside efi"ervescence, which ia aent for their conaideration from the House of Com mons. But when public opinion gains vigor from the obataolea whicii it encountera, and the reforma demanded are rational and come before them in due courae, there is no danger that the legialation which erabodiea them will be obatructed in ita progreas ; for the people will riae in their majeaty and in their aenae of jua tice, aa did the people of England in 1832, and the obataclea they might meet with on their way would be swept away aa by a tor rent. (Hear, hear.) Hon. Mr. DORION— That ia exactly where the danger liea. Hon. Mr. CAUCHON— That ia the danger whicb aaaailed the Houae of Lorda in 1832, but no one would venture to confront to the last extremity a danger such as thia. But the honorable member for Quebec tella ua, if I underatand him rightly, that we have not sufiieient guarantees fbr Lower Canada in the appointment of the legislative counciUora. The selection of legialative councillors has no bearing whatever on the question we are now considering, viz., whether the appointraent by the Crown is or is not pre ferable to the elective principle. But in an swer to hira I will say, that the scherae be fore ua aeeraa to be quite clear. According to thia plan the candidatea for tbe Legiala tive Council wiU be recommended by the bcal govemmenta and appointed by the General Governraent, and it ia by tbia very diviaion of powera that the aeleotiona are aure to be good, and made in conformity with the deaire and aentiments of the provincea. Hon. Mr. DORION— Only the firat nom inations are to be made in this manner, not tbose whioh may be made afterwarda. Hon. Mr. CAUCHON— The first nomin- ationa will be made by tbe present Govem menta, and the federal councUlora will be taken from the preaent legialative counciUora to the nuraber prescribed, 24, provided so many can be found who will accept the post, and who poaaeaa the requiaite property quali fication. The Conference haa engaged, by the terma of the scheme, to reapect tbe righta of the Opposition, and any government wbo should fail to carry out ao solemn an en gagement would well deserve to lose the pub lic confidence. (Hear, hear.) I repeat that the mode of appointing the councillors in no wise affects the conaervative principle of nomination on which the constitution of the Legialative Council ought to be based. Hon. Mr. DORION— In the course of my observationa the other night, I did not examine the queation from the point of view from which the honorable member fiom Quebec is now looking at it. That honorable meraber, if I have understood him rightly, affirms that in the proposed con stitution of the Federal Legislative Council there is no conservative principle to guaran tee tbat the provinces will be represented in that Council, and he does so with justice. If the honorable member for Montmorenci will examine it attentively, he will see that the first nominations are to be made by the existing governments. Thua the Government of Ca nada, that of New Brunawick and that of Nova Scotia will appoint legialative council lors, but afterwards the Federal Government wiU make the appointments. The honorable member for Quebec can, with reaaon, draw the concluaion that there is no guarantee that the views of the provinces will be respected. I for my part have investigated the matter, more in connection with tbe power that will be vested in the legislative councillora. I aaaerted that by appointing them for life and limiting their number, an absolute authority would be created, which would be quite be yond the control of tbe people and even of the Executive; that the power of thia body will be ao great, that they will alwaya be in a poaition to prevent every reform if they thought pro per, and that a collision between the two branches would be inevitable and irremediable. The danger arising from the creating of auch a power ia exactly that of being obliged to dea troy it if they reaiat too obatinately the popu lar demands. In England there ia no necea aity for breaking down tbe obatructiona tome- timea presented by tbe Houae of Lorda, becauae tho Crown having it in its power to appoint new peera, can overcome the difficulty. Here there wUl be no means of doing it, when the number of councillora ia fixed. Accord ingly, I have looked at the queation through the medium of tbe powera aaaigned to the councillora, whereas the honorable member for the county of Quebec fears leat the Govern ment ahould make choice of men who would not repreaent public opinion in the provinces ; that they might appoint'members all of French origin or all of English origin to represent Lower Canada, or take them all from among 571 a class of men who would not represent the province for which they are appointed, and who could give no pledge that they would maintain its institutions. Hon. Attt. Gen. CARTIER— It ia evi dent- that the honorable member for Hoche laga haa not read the reaolutiona ; but I have read them. Lower Canada is in a peculiar position. We have two races of people whose interests are distinct from each other in respect to origin, language and religion. In preparing the busineaa of the Confederation at Quebec, wc had to conciliate theae two inter- eats, and to give the country a Constitution which might reconcile the conservative with the democratic element ; for tbe weak point in democratic institutions is the leaving of all power in the bands of the popular element. 'The history of tbe past proves that this is an evil. In order that inatitutiona may be stable and work harmoniously, there muat be a power of resiatmce to oppose to tbe democratic ele ment. In the United States the power of resistance does not reside in the Senate, nor even in the President. The honorable mem ber for Hochelaga says that the objection of the honorable member for the county of Quebec is well founded, because the Federal Government may appoint all English or all French-Canadians as legislative councillors for Lower Canada. If the honorable member had read the resolutions, he would have found that the appointments of legislative councillors are to be made so as to accord with the electoral divisions now existing in the province. Well, I ask whether it is probable tbat the Executive of the Federal Government, which will have a chief or leader as it is now — I ask whether it ia very probable thao he will recommend the appointment of a French-Canadian to repre sent divisiona like Bedford or Wellington for inatance ? Hon. j. S. MACDONALD— You wiU be in a minority in the Federal Government. Hon. Attt. Gen. CARTIER— Am I not in aminority at preaent in appointing judgea? And yet when I propoae the appointment of a judge for Lower Canada, ia be not appointed ? Did the honorable member for Cornwall (Hon. J. S. Macdonald), when he was in the Government, ever attempt to interfere with the appointments recommended by the honorable member for Hochelaga ? And now, when a chief justice or a puisn6 judge is to be appointed for Lower Canada, I find myself surrounded by colleagues, a majority of whom are English aud Protestants; but do they pre sume to interfere with my recommendations ? No, no more than we Lower Canadians inter fere with the recommendations of my honor able friend the Attorney General for Upper Canada in making appointments to ofiice in Upper Canada. There will be in the Federal Government a leader for Lower Canada, and do you think that the other Blinisters will presume to interfere and intermeddle with his recommendations ? But I am told that I am in a minority. So I am now, so I have been for eight years — Mr. GEOFFRION— You have ecj[uality between tbe two provinces. Hon. Attt. Gen. CARTIER— Yes, we have equality, but not as a race, nor in respect of religion. When the leader for Lower Can ada shall have sixty-five members belonging to his section to support him, and command a majority of the French-Canadians and of the British from Lower Canada, will he not be able to upset the Government if hia colleagues interfere with his recommendations to office ? That is our security. At present, if I found unreasonable oppoaition to my viewa, my remedy would be to break up the Government by retiring, and tbe aame thing will happen in the Federal Govemment. Hon. Mr. DORION— The honorable mem ber will be allowed to retire from the Govern ment; as there will then be a sufficient number of Engliah membera to be able to do without him, be will be allowed to retire, and nobody will care. Hon.Mr. CAUCHON— The honorable member for Hochelaga put a queation to me relative to the constitution of the Legislative Council, and said that he had not looked at the question, while speaking the other even ing, in the same light as the honorable mem ber for tbe county of Quebec. He spoke of tbe conservatives as a party, and his fear was, not that the Upper House would not be con servative enough, but that it would be too much so. Hon. Mr. DORION— I looked at it both ways, both as it involved the interests of par ties, and in regard to tbe power which that Houae would exerciae from the nature of its constitution. Hon. Mr. CAUCHON— I did not see the two ways of looking at it. I saw but one. It is the same idea in a different form. He said that even if the Lower House were altogether liberal, the Uj per House would remain com posed of conservatives ; this was his fear. He has been a long whUe trying to ga.n predomi nance for hia democratic notions, but it ia evi dent he wiU not succeed. 1 recur to the real medium through which the honorable mem ber looks at the question, namely, his fears 572 that his party will sink out of sight. In the present day, parties disappear and become fused with others, while others arise from passing events. In New Brunswick, conser vatives join the liberal government to carry Confederation, and we see no parties there but the partisans and the opponents of the union, as in 1788, in the United States, there were no partiea but the adherenta of royalty and thoae of Federal Government. We aee the aame thing in Nova Sootia. This is true patriotism and the real dignity of public men. It is unfortunate fbr us that we do not follow their example here. Mr. GEOFFRION-Hear ! Hon. Mr. CAUCHON— The honorable member from Vercheres says •' Hear I " Is it not a fact that the Opposition vote as a party on the preaent queation ? If it ia not 80, will he name a aingle member of the Op poaition who does not vote against Confeder ation ? Hon. j. S. MACDONALD— Hear ! hear I Hon. Mr. CAUCHON— The honorable member for Cornwall aaya " Hear ! hear ! " He may well say ao — he who never had a party. He came into power, nobody expect ed he would. He will never get it again, everybody expecta that. ( Continued laughter. ) I am bound to shew him reapect because he ia ray aenior in thia Houae, my senior by three years. It ia true he has not alwaya repre sented the aame county, hia brother having fraternally driven him out of Glengarry, and obliged him to take refuge iu the rotten borough of Cornwall. (Laughter.) But al though we have almoat always been unlucky enough to do duty in diiferent camps, we have not on that account ceaaed to be good frienda. (Laughter.) I will not look at this queation in a party light, becauae partiea expire, and we do not know whether in thirty yeara the preaent partiea will exist. We ought to look at the queation apart from party conaidera tiona, and on ita own merita : that ia to say, we ought to place in the Conatitution a counter poise to prevent any party legislation, and to moderate the precipitancy of any government which might be diapoaed to move too faat and go too far, — I mean a legialative body able to protect the people againat itself and againat the encroachments of power. (Hear, hear.) In England, the Crown has never attempted to degrade the Houae of Peera by aubmerging it, becauae it knowa well that the nobility are a bulwark agaiust the aggreaaions of the democratic element. The Houae of Lords, by their power, their territorial poaaea aiona, and their enormoua wealth, are a great defence against democratic invasion, greater than anything we can oppose to it in America. In Canada, as in the rest of North America, we have not the castes — classes of society — which are found in Europe, and the Federal Legislative Council, although immutable in respect of number, inasmuch as all the mem bera belonging to it will come from the ranka of the people, without leaving them, as do the membera of the House of Commons, will not be selected from a privileged class which have no existence. Here all men are alike, and are all equal ; if a difierence is to be found, it arises exclusively from the industry, the in telligence, and the superior education of those who have labored the most strenuously, or whom Providence has gifted with the highest faculties. (Hear, hear.) Long ago the pri vileges of caste disappeared in this country. Most of our ancient nobiUty left the country at the conquest, and the greater number of those -who remained have sunk out of sight by inaction. Accordingly, whom do we see in the highest offices of state ? The sons of the poor who have felt the necessity of study, and who have risen by the aid of their intel lect and hard work. (Hear, hear.) Every thing is democratic with us, because everyone can attain to everything by the efforts of a noble ambition. The legislative councillors appointed by tbe Crown will not be, there fore, socially speaking, persons superior to the membera of the House of Commona; thoy will owe their elevation only to their own merit. They will live aa being of the people and among the people as we do. How can it happen, then, that having uo advan tage over ua greater than that of uot being elected, they will not be aubject in a legitimate degree to the influence of public opinion? There are some men who have enough patriotism to approve of everything done elaewhere, but to find fault with every" thing done at home — it ia a pitiful crotchet in the human mind. If there had been as much danger for tbe liberal party in this union as you aay there waa, would Hon. Mr. TiLLET, the leader of the Liberal government of New Brunawick, a man of such foresight and judgment ; would tbe honorable member for South Oxford, your former leader, whose talent and experience you wiU not deny, have ac cepted it ? (Hear, hear.) But look rather at what ia now paaaing in New Brunawick and Nova Scotia ; what they havo agreed to deaignate aa the Federal electoral ticket ia composed of six candidates for the town and 573 county of St. Johns, N.B. ; and in Nova Scotia, Hon. Mr. Tupper, the leader of a Conser vative government, and Messrs. Archibald aud McCullet, two of the chiefs of the Liberal party, are working hand in hand for Confederation. (Hear, hear.) One must be short-sighted not to see that this new order of things will produce new combinations similar to those produced by the American Constitution of 1788, when the citizens and public men divided into two camps, the camp of the supporters of national union and that of the friends of the state sovereignty. (Hear, hear.) Let us not then be anxious about the future of parties. What does it matter to this country what position the houorable member for Hochelaga or myself may occupy in this new Constitution ? (Laughter.) What matters it to the country if we be above or below, the first or the last, the victors or the vanquished, so long as it is happy under the new rule, and finds happiness, greatness, power and prosperity in the free development of its resources and institutions? (Hear, hear.) The opponents of Confederation do not desire the union of the provinces for the purpose of military defence; two and two will always make four, say they, and in uniting the popu lations of the different provinces, you will not give us more strength to resist the common enemy, unless, as facetiously remarked the honorable member for Lotbiniere, we make a treaty with the enemy, which would bind him to attack iis at but one place at a time, so as to allow us to oppose all our forcea to the invaaion. Yea, two and two will always War between make four. You are right. England and the United States would expose us in our colonial position to the attacks of the enemy at all vulnerable points of the re spective provinces. But, firstly, the union carries witb it the construction of the Inter colonial Railway, and that railway which does not particularly please the two annexationist leaders of the Opposition, would allow England and the provincea to transport troops rapidly from the furthest liraits of the country to the threatened points of the national ter ritory. Without the aid of railways how could Napoleon III. have been able, in a fortnight, to throw two hundred thousand men on the plains of Italy, to defeat the Austrians at Magenta and Solferino, and to gain one of the bloodiest aud most glorious victories of modem times? But in the ad vanced condition of our civUization, our com merce and our manufactures — with so many elements of greatness, with so many prodi gious sources of prosperity and wealth — with a population of nearly four millions already — should we have so little ambition as not to aspire to take our place one day in the rank of nations ? (Hear, hear.) Sball we forever remain colonists ? Does the history of the world afford examples of eternal subjection ? (Hear, hear.) It is not, for my part, because I do not feel myself proud and happy under the glorious flag which protecta and ahelters in safety one hundred and fifty millions of souls. It is not because I do not feel myself free as the bird of air in the midst of space, under the mighty segis ofthe Britiah Empire — a thouaand timea more free than I ahould be, with the name of citizen, in the grasp of the American Eagle. (Hear, hear, and cheers.) But we must not conceal from ourselves the fact that we are attracted by two centres of attraction — the opposing ideas which are developed and which make war upon each other, even within these walls, sufficiently attest the fact. Everything tells us that the day of national emancipation or of annexation to the United States is ap proaching, and while the statesmen of all par tiea in the Empire warn ua affectionately to prepare for the first, a few of our own public men drive us inceaaantly towarda the second, by propagating republican ideas, and by en deavoring by all posaible means to aaaimilate our inatitutiona to thoae of the neighboring republic. (Hear, hear.) If we remain iso lated, what will happen at the moment of separation from the Blether Country ; for that moment will come, whether we wiah it or wish it not?' Each province would form an independent state, and as to at tack the one would no longer mean to at tack all, inasmuch as we should have ceased to be the subjects of the same empire, the United States, if they covet them, would devour them one by one in their isolated po sition, following therein the able tactics of the Romans in Asia, Europe and Africa, of the Engliah in India, and of Napoleon, the greateat warrior of modern timea, in Europe. I underatand that the annexationiats insist on the status quo and on isolation ; but othera would be blind did they listen to them, inas much as reason commands them to organize, so as to be ready wben danger comes. If we are four millions to-day, we shaU probably be eight millions and over then, with proportionate means of defence, and the alliances which we would find in the necessity on the part of tbe European powers to keep within bounds the too extensive development of that nation which 574 is now struggling in the horrors of civil war. (Hear, hear.) Honorable gentlemen do not deaire Confederation, becauae there must be an outlay for its defence. But are those, who argue thus, logical ? If two and two did not make more than four a moment ago, why would they make five now ? If each province, atanding in an isolated position, would be obliged to expend money to organize the defence of its territory, why would the com bination of all these various outlaya in Confederation araount to more than the total of theae same expenses otherwiae added up ? Would thia be the caae becauae a aingle organization ought to be, neceaaarily, leaa ex penaive than six diatinot commands ? Tho honorable member for Hochelaga haa exag gerated tbe expenaes of the Confederation, as he haa everything else ; as he exaggerated and perverted, the other day, the words of the Hou. President of the Council. Mr. GEOFFRION— And besides this, the Maritime Provinces have to be paid to come into tbe Confederation. Hon. Mr. CAUCHON— That question will naturally come up in its turn. But it is not the less true that all the provinces come into the Confederation on an equal footing, as tbeir debt is placed in equilibrium ; and as, for the purposes of the union, the arrangement is strictly based on the total population of each of them. On a previoua occasion, as I bave elaewhere quoted, the honorable member for Hochelaga stated tbat the Maritime Pro vinces did not choose our alliance, because our debt was too great. Now he does not choose tbeir alliance, becauae he ia afraid we shall have to pay for them. Now that the debt is perfectly equal, in proportion to the total population, and the Conference has ao equal ized it in order to found Confederation on juatice, the Atlantic Provinces conaent to the union. Hon. Mr. DORION— What provincea are thoae ? Hon, Ma. CAUCHON— I allude to New Brunawick and Newfoundland, aud I am convinced that the deciaion of those two provincea will aufficiently influence Nova Scotia to oau.se her to reaolve to come into tbe Confederation. The Nova Sootian newa- papera, even those of them which are moat hoatile to the scheme, acknowledge tbat that proviaoe cannot reraain isolated ; and accord ingly shj awaits tho reault of the electiona in New Brunawick before taking action, lu the meantime the journala in queation aro making incredible exertiona to prevail upon New Brunswick to refuse the great Confe deration, because they wiah for anotner and a araaller one, that of tbe Maritime Pro vincea alone. Another motive which will induce Nova Scotia to accept the scheme of the Quebec Conference, if New Brunawick ahould declare heraelf in favor of it, ia that the terminua of tbe Intercolonial Railway would be fixed at St. John inatead of at Halifax ; and what would become of Nova Scotia BO iaolated ? She would not conaent to it ; her writera and her atateamen poaitively aaaert it. For our part, we require an out let upon the Atlantic aeaboard, and that we can only have by means of Confederation. (Hear, hear.) To those who cherish differ ent ideas, I can conceive that this matter is not one of equal importance, for they wish to fix their terminus at another point on the Atlantic seaboard. (Hear, hear.) I feel that I have already spoken at length, and I have yet some important pointa of the scbeme to examine. I will not, then, enter into calculations of figures to prove th_p extravagance and absurdity of those of the hon. member for Hochelaga, preferring, moreover, to leave them in the more skilful and powerful hands of the Hon. Slinister of Finance. I ahall content myaelf with telling the hon. member for Hochelaga — and that will suffice for myaelf aa well as for the House and the couutry — that I prefer Con federation with its prospects of expense, to annexation to tho United States with an actual debt of close upon three thousand millions, and with an annual tax of five hun dred millions of dollara. The 34th paragraph of the 29 th clauae of the scheme reads thua : " The eatablishment of a General Court of Appeal for the Federated Pro vincea." What ia the object— what wUl be the cl aracter of the tribunal? Thoae two queationa will naturally preaent theraaelves to those who have given any attention to that part of the scheme which refers to the civil and criminal law, and the working of the judiciary. The whole of the clauses which refer to the latter are as complete aa the_ moat ardent aupportera of union could desire, tempered by the lew exceptiona by meana of which the provincea have wished to shelter their local institutiona from attack. (Cheera.) To convince the Houae of tbia, I need but read the following •_ o 31. The General Parliament may also, frora time to time, establish addhional courts, and the General Government may appoint jud 'es and officers thereof, when the same shaU° appear 575 neceaaary or for the public advantage, in order to the due execution of the lawa of Parliament. 32. All courta, judgea and officera of tha several provincea ahall aid, assist and obey the General Government in the exercise of its righta and powera, and for such purpoaea shall be held to be courts, judges and officers of the General Government. 33, The General Governmeut shall appoint and pay the judgea of the Superior Courts in each province, and of the County Courts in Upper Canada, aud ParUament shall fix their aalaries. 35. The judgea ofthe courta of Lower Canada shall be aelected from the Bar of Lower Canada. 37. The judgea of the Superior Courta shall hold their officea during good behaviour, and shall be removable only on the address of hoth Houaea of Parliament. 45. In regard to all aubjecta over which juris diction belonga to both the General and Local Legislatures, the lawa of the General Parliament shall control and supersede those mads by the local legialature, and the latter shall be void so far as they are repugnant to, or inconsistent with the former. 38. For each of the provinces there shall be au executive officer, styled the lieutenant-gover nor, who shall be appointed by the Governor General in Council, under the great seal of the Federated Provinces, during pleasure : such plea sure not to he exercised before the expiration of the first five years, except for cauae : such cause to he communicated in writing to the Lieutenant- Governor immediately after the exerciae of the pleasure as aforesaid, and also by meaaage to both Houses of Parliament, within the first week ofthe firat aession afterwarda. 39. The lieutenant-governor of each province shall be paid by the General Government. 50. Any bill of the General Parliament may he reaerved iuthe uaual manner for Her Majesty'a assent, an I any bill of the local legislatures may, in like manner, be reaerved for the conaideration of the Governor General. 51. Any bill paaaed by the General Parliament shall he aubject to diaallowance hy Her Majesty within two years, as in the case of billa paaaed hy the legislatures of the said provinces hith«rto, and, in like manner, any bill pasaed by a local legislature shall be subject to diaallowance by the Governor General within one year after the paas ing thereof. The evident object of this organization ia to reaasure the Protestant minority of Lower Canada against any apprehension for the future; it is also perhaps in the interest ol national unity, to prevent local parliaments and governments from infringing the attri butes of the Central Parliament. The nomination of judge.', the veto, the reserva tion and even certain directions to be found in the project itself, tend to the same end, and must necessarily attain it. I see nothing wrong in that, provided that this formidable engine in going out of its course does not crush the righta wbich we are bound to rea pect and maintain forever in their integrity. (Hear, hear.) I am not of tbe aame opinion aa the hon. member for Brome, who pretends to see in those clauses thatthe judges would be under two maatera at the same time. If they could possibly be controlled at all, it would be by the Federal Government, wbich alone will appoint them, pay them, and have the power of dismissing them in certain cases. There is no anomaly here, because one thing follows another ; all are linked together and harmonize perfectly. If any thing could possibly arise, it would be danger. However, so far as we can see, there will be no danger in the administration of justice — the question of veto, and reserve with regard to legislation, being a totally different thing, and suggesting considerations of a different' nature. But here ia the point to which I wish to draw tbe attention of thia Houae. Among all the thinga guaranteed to Lower Canada in the Constitution, and in fact to all the provinoes, we find their own civil laws. Lower Canada has been so tenacious of its civil code, that it is laid down in the project before us tbat the Federal Parlia ment shall not even be able to suggest legia lation by which it may be affected, as it will have the right to do for the other provinces. The reason is obvious — the civil laws of the other provinces are nearly sirailar ; they breathe the same spirit and the same prin ciples ; they spring from the same source and tbe same ideas. But it ia not so with regard to thoae of Lower Canada, with tbeir origin from almoat entirely Latin sources ; and we hold to them as to a sacred legacy'; we love them because tbey auit our euatoma, and we find under the protection for our property and our Jamiliea. (Hear, hear.) The Conference haa under atood and reapected our ideaa on thia point. However, if a Court of Appeal ahould one day be placed over the judiciary tribunala of all the provincea, without excepting thoae of Lower Canada, the result would be that those aame laws would be explained by men who would not understand them, and who would, involuntarily perhaps, graft Engliah juris prudence upon a French code of lawa. — (Hear, hear.) Such waa the spectacle pre sented in Canada after the conqueat, and no one, I am aure, would wiah to aee a repetition of the scene. (Hear, hear.) We have, it 576 ia true. Her Majesty's Privy Council as a last resort, but we owe it to necessity ; we have not asked for it ourselves. At any rate it is composed of chosen men, all or nearly all of whom are well versed in Roman law — men who, when they have a doubt upon some point, avail themselves of the counsels and advice of the most eminent jurists of France. Nor does the proposed Constitution speak of doing away with this tribunal, which will dominate by ita imperial character even over the Court of Ap peal which tbe Federal Government has the power of creating. Here the Conven tion had national views; it foresaw evidently in the future the day of colonial emanci pation. Nevertheless, whatever the inten tions ofthe delegates, their project does not define the attributes of this Federal court; and as there ia aome apprehenaion on this point, I would wiah to put the following question to the Government : — If thia Court of Appeal be eatabliahed, wUl it be a purely civil tribunal, or a constitutional one ? Or will it be at the same time civil and con stitutional ? If it be a civil tribunal, will it bave jurisdiction over Lower Canada? (Hear, hear.) Hon. Attt. Gen. CARTIER — The queation put by my hon. friend the member for Montmorency ia one which it ia not eaay for the Government to answer, inasmuch aa the power conferred by that article ia only that of creating a Court of Appeal at some futuie day, and thejurisdiction of that court will depend on. the cauaea which lead to ita creation. The hon. member haa very juatly remarked that it may become neceaaary at a future period to constitute such a tribunal. At preaent the aeveral provincea which are to form part of the Conlederation have the same court cf final appeal. Aa long a« we keep up our connection with the Mother Country, we ahall alwaya have our court of final appeal in Her Majeaty'a Privy Council. But when the Britiah Provinces on this con tinent are united by the bond of Confeder ation, we shall have one uniform system, common to all, in regard to imports, bills of exchange and promisaory notes, aa well aa univeraal juriaprudence. Accordingly, when we have lived some years under the Federal regime, the urgent need of such a Court of Appeal with jurisdiction in such matters will be felt, and, if it is created, it will be.fltthat its jurisdiction should extend to civil causes which might arise in the several Confederate Provinces, because it will necessarily be composed of the most eminent judges in the different provinces, of the jurists whose re putation stands highest, of men, in short, profoundly skilled in the jurisprudence of each of the provinces which they will re spectively represent. Well, if this court is called upon, for instance, to give final judg ment on a judgment rendered by a Lower Canada court, there will be among the judges on the bench men perfectly versed in the knowledge of the laws of that section of the Confederation, who will be able to give the benefit of their lights to the other judges sitting with them. I must observe to my hon. friend the member for Montmorency, that he disparages the civil law of Lower Canada in the estimate he makes of it ; but he need be under no uneasiness on that head. He should not forget that if, at thia day, the laws of Lower Canada are so re markably well understood in Her Majesty's Privy Council, it is because the code of equity, which is a subject of deep study and familiar knowledge among the members of the council, is based on Roman law, as our own code is. All the eminent judges, whether in England, in the Maritime Pro vincea or in Upper Canada, are profoundly veraed in thoae principlea of equity, which are identical with thoae of our civil code. Now, aa to my own personal opinion, reapecL- ing the_ creation of that tribunal, I think that it is important not to eatabliah it until a certain number of yeara shall have elapsed from the eatablishment of Confederation, and to make it consist of judges from the several provincea ; for this court would have to give final judgment in cauaea pronounced upon in the courta of all the sectiona. Nei ther can I tell what functiona and powera might be aasigned to it by the act establishing it. Time alone can tell us that; but I do hold, and the spirit of the conference at Quebec indicated, that the appeal to the judicial committtee of Her Majesty's Privy Couucil must always exist, even if the court in question is eatabUahed. Hon. Mr. EVANTUREL— I acknow ledge the frankneas which the Hon. Attorney General for Lower Canada haa evinced in giving the explanationa to the House which we have juat heard ; and I truat that the honorable miniater will permit me to aak him one question. Paragraph 32 gives the Federal Government the power of legialatino- on criminal law, except that of creating 577 courts of criminal jurisdiction, but including rules of procedure in criminal cases. If I am not mistaken, that paragraph signifies that the General Government may establish judicial tribunals in the several Confederate Provinces. I should much like to be en lightened on this head by the Hon. Attorney General for Lower Canada. Hon. Mr. CARTIER— I am very glad that the honorable member for the County of Quebec has put this question, which I shall answer as frankly as that of the hon. member for Montmorency. My bon. friend will find, if he refers to the paragraph which he has cited, that it gives the General Go vernment simply the power of providing for the execution of the laws of the Federal Government, not of those of the local govern ments. Hon. Mr. CAUCHON— I have listened to the explanations of my hon. friend the Attorney General for Lower Canada, and I find them perfectly satisfactory, as they regard criminal law ; for that is the same or nearly the same in all the provinces. For my own part, I infinitely prefer the criminal law of England to that ofany other country. It affords more protection to the party ac cused, than, for instance the criminal code of France does. The civil laws of the latter, by the way, have my warm admiration, as have also their administrative talent and their apt ness for civUizing influences. ( Hear, hear.) If the English criminal law gives the criminal too great a chance of escaping, it at least savea society the stigma of condemning the innocent. The accuaed is tried for the single act for which he is indicted, and is not questioned concerning his whole past life and conversation. The lawa of commerce are nearly the same in aU countries, and thoae which rule the trade of two continenta may be aaid to be founded on an ordinance of a king of France. Accordingly, there wiU be no inconvenience in bringing commercial cauaes, aa well aa othera, for adjudication before the Court of Appeals mentioned in the scheme of Confederation. I am convin ced that if ever that tribunal comes into exiatence, it wiU be composed of the most eminent men in the several provinces, who wUl devote their whole energies to the causes brought before them, but the majority of whom will have studied and practised a code different from ours ; although the laws of Upper Canada, for instance, have a constant tendency. to coincide with our civil code: 74 Blackstone, with his national common law which he aimed at establishing, being no longer the great authority which he was in former days, and England, like Germany, drawing rather from the pure spring of Ro man law, as the most perfectly rational code in existence. We have not, however, yet come to this position of things in our pro vinces, and, up to the present hour, English law consists rather of precedents and decisions of eminent judges, like Lords Mansfield, Coke, and others; and as the scheme of a Constitution makes an exception in favor of our civil laws, it would be most prudent, in my opinion, to leave the decision of our causes to those judges who have studied aud practised them. Nothing is as yet written in the Constitu tion concerning them, and nothing stands in tbe way of the desired exception. (Hear.) I am aware that it may be attended with some inconveniences and that in this behalf concessions may have been, perforce, sub mitted to in order to obtain others ; but I think that on reflection it will be found best for all concerned to have the laws en forced rather by thoae who underatand them than by thoae who do not. (Hear, hear.) I now come, Mr. Speaker, to the queation of marriage and divorce. The word divorce haa sounded atrangely upon Catholic ears through tbe length and breadth of Lower Canada ; for the CathoUc, whether he live in Rome, in London, Paris, New York, Halifax or Quebec, does not recognize any authority on earth with power to sanction or legalize divorce. Such is what the Catho lic believes, whether he be the Sovereign Pontiff, ruling spiritually over 200,000,000 .souls, or the humblest or poorest of the faithful, with nothing to shelter him from the fury of the elements but the thatched roof of his cabin. (Hear, hear.) That is what I believe, in common with all the CathoUcs of tbe world; but here, in this House, composed of Catholics and Protes tants, I feel that I need, in order to be understood, to speak in another language, which will be understood by all, because it is baaed upon principles anterior to Chris tianity and univeraally admitted. What is marriage, considered as a natural contract ? It is the aocial formula ; it is, as I had occa- sioD to write elsewhere, the natural mode of trauamitting property, which ia the funda- ijsntal base of society, and, to go farther, society itself in its constitution. (Hear, 578 hear.) If we cannot suppose a body without a form, so we cannot suppose society with out ita formula, and in destroying its for mula you destroy society. That is the reaaon why the marriage tie ahould be in- diaaoluble ; it ia it which conatitutea the family, and in breaking that tie you destroy the family, in breaking that tie you atrike a mortal blow at society, because family ties are ita only baae, its only foundation, its only element of composition (Hear.) It ia from thoae fundamental trutha that apring the righta, dutiea and civil laws wbich prove their exiatence aud at the same time protect them. (Hear.) I havo heard in another place than in thia Ilouse, men who, forgetting the natural law and the principles of aociety, become affected at the recital of the domeatic miseriea of one of their fellow-beinga, and even invoke the Divine word to juatify them in granting a divorce for cauae of adultery. Let ua aee if the language of the Saviour of the world, who taught here upon earth a aocial doctrine, by preaerving the inviolabiUty of domeatic tiea and aurrounding them with dutiea which rendered tbem atill more sacred, juatifics auch an interpretation — " I aay unto you, that he who putteth away hia wife, except for adultery, and marrieth another, commit teth adultery, and he who marrieth her who hath been put away also committeth adul tery." Are not theae words as clear aa day, and do tbey not expreasly forbid divorce, ¦ aince tbey declare an adulterer the man who shall marry the woman aeparated from ber huaband. (Hear, hear.) Theae worda per mit the sending away, the aeparation of the body, but they expressly forbid divorce — thatia, the rupture of family tiea, (Applauae.) I have aaid that thoae Divine worda had a aocial object ; in fact what other object could they have but to preaerve intact the aocial formula for the tranamiasion of property ; and if they surround that formula with a super natural aanction, accompanied by a proapect of reward or puniahment, it ia to protect it atill more. It ia for thia reaaon that, in CathoUcism, marriage, a natural contract, ia elevated to the dignity of a aacrament, but it waa inviolable and indiasoluble before that sanction. (Hear, hear.) Now, if wc drop the conaideration of theae great philoaophical Chriatian ideas, we come to the region of ma terial facts, and we are forcibly led to distin guish between force and right, between power and duty. The sovereign legislative authority. as a superior power everywhere, in spite of right and duty, has ruled with a high hand questions in the social order, among which may be found divorce ; everywhere, in ancient Rome, in France, in England, in the United Statea, and in Canada, has this authority acted, and the judiciary was bound to execute its commands. (Hear, hear.) This power ia inherent to Parliament, and is exercised without oppoaition. Our preaent Parliament poaaeaaed that power, as did those of '74 and '91, and several of ua have had, at some time or other, to give our vote on a bill of divorce. Catholics invariably voted against those bills, denying the right, but unable to deny the power, of Parliament, thus reconciling their consciences with their principles. (Hear, hear.) This scheme of the Conference does not ask us to-day to proclaim a principle, but simply the transposition of the exercise of a power which exists in spite of us. Now, in weighing the advantages and inconveniences, I, for my part, say^ — and I believe, in so speaking I expreaa tbe general aentiment of Catholica — that, ainoe the evU is a neces sary one, and cannot be got rid of, I would rather see it where its consequences would be less serious, because tbey would be more cramped in their development, and conse quently less demoralizing and less fatal in their infiuence. (Hear, hear.) Marriage presents itself to us here under another aspect — that is, marriage with regard to its civil effects. This project attributes the civil laws and legislation as to property to the local legislatures. Now, marriage, considered as a civil contract, becomes necessarily a part of these lawa, and, I might even say, it affects the entire civil code, containmg in its broadest sense all the marriage acta, all the qualities and conditions required to allow marriage to be contracted, all the formaUties relative to its celebration, all ita nullifying causes, all its obligations, its diasolution, the aeparation of the body, ita cauaea and effects ; in a word, aU the possible consequences that can result from marriage to the contracting parties, their children and their estates. (Hear, hear.) If such had been the intention of the dele gates, we might as well say that the civil laws will not be one of the attributes of our Local Legislature, and that theae worda, "Property and civil righta," have been placed ironicaUy m the fifteenth aection of the forty-third clauae of the acheme. But I was sure be forehand that such could not be the' case when the Honorable Solicitor General for Lower Canada declared the other day, in the 579 name of the Government, that the word mar riage, inserted in the project of Confedera tion, expresses the intention to give to the Federal Parliament the power to declare that marriages contracted in any one of the pro vinces, according to its lawa, should be con sidered as valid in all the others. Then am I to understand that that part of the Constitu tion relating to thia question will be drafted in the sense expressed in the declaration of the Honorable Solicitor General, and wiU be restricted to the caae mentioned? Hon. Sol. Gen. LANGEVIN — I made, Mr. Speaker, the other day, in the name of the Government, the declaration now alluded to by the honorable member for Montmor ency, relative to the question of marriage. The explanation then given by me exactly accords with that which was affixed to it at the Quebec Conference. " It is undoubted that the resolutions laid before this honorable Houae contain in all things only the princi ples on which the bill or measure respecting Confederation will be based. I can asaure the honorable member that the explanationa I gave the other evening, relative to the quea tion of marriage, are perfectly exact, and that the Imperial Act relating to it wiU be drawn up in accordance with the interpretation I put upon it. Hon. Mr. DORION— I thought I under stood from aome one, whom I had reaaon to conaider well informed, that that article waa intended to protect mixed marriages. Hon. Sol. Gen. LANGEVIN— In order that I may be better understood by the hon. member, I wUl read the written declaration which I communicated to the Houae the other evening. Thia declaration reada as follows : The word marriage haa been placed in the draft ofthe proposed Constitution to invest the Federal Parliament with the right of declaring what mar riages ahall be held and deemed to be valid throughout the whole extent of the Confederacy, without, however, interfering in any particular with the doctrinea or ritea of the religious creeda to which the contractmg partiea may belong. The hon. member for Hochelaga 'will pleaae to remark that I have been careful in reading this declaration ; and in order that no doubt may exist respecting it, I have given to the reporters the very text of the declara tion. Hon. Mr. DORION— I may have been mistaken ; but the question on which I wish to be enlightened by the Hon. Solicitor Gene ral for Lower Canada is this : WiU a Local Legislature have the right of declaring a mar riage between partiea not professing the same religious belief invalid ? Hon. Attt. Gen. CARTIER— Has not tbe Legislature of Canada now the power of legislating on that matter, and yet has it ever thought of legislating in tbat way ? (Hear, Hon. Mr. CAUCHON— If I underatand the explanation of the Hon. Solicitor General for Lower Canada correctly, it will be nothing but tbe application between the provinces of public international law, namely, that a mar riage lawfully contracted in one province should be equally binding in all the others. (Hear, hear.) Hon. Mr. DORION— In that case you have no need of that clause. Hon. Mr. CAUCHON— If tho principle ia juat, I do not aee what harm there can be in having it written in tbe Conatitution, par ticularly aa it ia desired in tbe provinces, and we, for our part, are interested in knowing that marriages contracted in Lower Can-ada are valid in all parts 'of the Confederation. That declaration is aatiafactory and reaasur ing. Sorae of the apeakera, irabued with de mocratic-republican ideaa, have gone ao far as to deny one of the moat essential and funda mental principlea of the Britiah Conatitution — that is to 8-ay, that tbe Parliament may change the Conatitution without special ap peals to tbe electoral body, and without re course to popular conventiona. It is evident that they wiah to lead ua towarda a aocial re public, government and legialation in fuU force. The Roman armies in the daya of the decadence of the empire, made and unmade eraperora ; but it never occurred to them to make lawa and adminiater afl'airs of atate. Thia had to be reaerved to our republicana, who are againat Confederation becauae tbey deaire annexation to the United Statea, and who raiae all kinda of obataoles in order to attain their end. (Hear, hear.) Here there are uaeleaa debates provoked in order to kUl time ; there, petitions covered with falae aignaturea or names obtained under false pre tences ; and the forlorn hope of democracy, who in the streets threaten with riots and gibbets all who wiah for the union of_ the pro vinces, and thereby, in its time, constitutional monarchy and parliamentary government. (Hear, hear.) But for those who, like my self, move in another circle of ideaa, who have other aapirations, and who are_ unwill ing to accept on any condition their ahare of a debt of three thouaand miUions, and of an annual burthen of five hundred mil- 580 lions of dollars; for those the theory and practice of English constitutional law alone possess attractions. (Hear, hear.) These con victions on my part are not of yeaterday. When, in 1849, after a commercial criais, which had everywhere cauaed diacourage- ment, ruined merchanta sighed for annexa tion, because tbey hoped to find in it a rem edy for the iUa and the fortune they had loat ; they supplicated Great Britain to allow them to go over, arras and baggage, to - the Wash ington Government ; to them became imme diately allied the republicans by inclination and principle, among whom were the honora ble members for Chateauguay and Hochelaga. (Hear, hear.) The proaperity which followed brought back the merchanta to affection for Britiah rule, but the othera remained repub licana and annexationiata. Their leadera are here before ua. Their acta betray them, and were it permitted to ua to hear them in their familiar counaela, I aia sure their words would also betray them. .(Hear, hear.) The an nexation movement had scarcely commenced in Montreal, when the two similar classes of men began to agitate in Quebec, and called an annexationist meeting in tbe St. George's Hotel, now occupied as the Executive Coun cil Chamber. Thia meeting waa inaugurated under evil auapicea. It waa preaided over by a bankrupt, merchant. It waa evening, and the meeting was held by gas-light. An orator waa chanting with atentorian lunga the praisea < : annexation and republicaniam, from which we were to derive proaperity and happineas. Reapectable leading citizena, indignant at what they beheld, implored me to apeak, and by a spontaneoua movement I waa borne to warda the platform. The annexationiat orator, loaing hia balance with the shock, in order to keep himaelf upright, seized the gaa-burner above hia head, but the frail support gave way. (Laughter.) The flames ascended in a threatening manner towards the ceiling, and the terrified hotel-keeper immediately ran to the cellar and put a stop to the sources of illu mination — and thus annexation was quenched in utter darkness. (Cheera and continuoua laughter.) The republican annexationiata, their hearta burating with rage, in order to avenge themaelvea, proceeded to break my windowa. This occurred nearly aixteen years ago, and time has only strengthened within me the opinion which guided my action then. It ia neither hatred nor prejudice which has inspired me since I have been able to read and reflect. My opinion is the result of matured conviction. It is, therefore, in the parliamentary history of Great Britain, and not in that of American institutions, that I shall seek a rule of conduct to guide me under the circumstances. In 1717 the British soil was invaded by the Pretender. The tories, who were not in power, but who wanted to rise to it precisely like the honorable members in opposition whom I see before me, exclaim ed, like them, that the church and religion of the country were in danger. Observe well the simUarity. These tories wished to elevate a Catholic prince to the throne. (Laughter.) The Whiga, who held the Govemment, and who aaw in the approaching election the cer tainty of the downfall of the reigning dynasty, determined to prolong the existence of the Parliament for four yeara more -without an appeal to the people. Their adveraariea ex claimed, aa do oura to-day, about violation of the Conatitution, and accuaed them of evading, by violent means, an appeal to the people, to maintain themselves in power. Mr. GEOFFRION— In proportion to their numbers, there are more Protestants than Catholics in favor of Confederation. Hon. Mr. CAUCHON— In the first place, there are a great many more Proteatanta in the House than Catholics — Upper Canada being entirely Protestant with the exception ef two votea, and the Opposition of Lower Canada pronouncing themselves, as a party, against Confederation, it is not to be wondered at that there should be proportionably more Protestants than Catholics in favor of Con federation. (Hear, hear, from the Opposition benches.) And this leads me to say that Catholic institutions have been much better maintained by Protestant votes than by certain Catholic votes in the Legislature. If Catho licism has been insulted, the insult has come from the Opposition newspapers. (Hear.) Mr. GEOFFRION— The Globe, the organ of the Honorable the President of the Council ! Hon. Mr. CAUCHON— Yea, the Ghhe haa made attacks on Catholic inatitutiona and the Catholic clergy — it waa wrong, there ia no doubt, and so was ita proprietor. But at that time, and more particularly wheS the Honorable the President of the CouncU ac cuaed Catholiciam of demoralizing society, who was it who replied on the floor of thia Houae, at great length, and I believe viotor- ioualy, in disproof of that aaaertion ? (Sensa tion.) I am then juatified in saying that the Honorable the President of the Council was wrong in speaking and writing as he did. He was unjust, but he was a Protestant, and he adhered to his opinions. What, however, has 581 he written in comparison with what has been -written by certain newspapers of the Catholic opposition, among which the Avenir takes the highest place ? They have ransacked the history of the world from the beginning of the Christian era in search of the calumnies of past ages, with the view of overwhelming, if it were possible, our bishops and priests. They have even gone so far as to cast their venom upon the august Pontiff who now rules over the Catholic Church ; and what has not been done by the Institut Canadien of Mont real, which is patronized by the leaders ofthe Opposition? (Cheers.) Hon. Mr. CARTIER— And the Avenir, which asserted that the Pope ought to be a schoolmaster. Hon. Mr. CAUCHON— Ah ! we now well know those who pretend to be the defenders of Catholicism, those former editors of the Avenir; we know what has been done by the Avenir, and the Pays also, in certain circum stances. (Hear, hear.) But here is what we find in a great constitutional authority, the value of which honorable gentlemen opposite -wiU probably not contest — " Hallam's His tory of England" : — Upon the prevalent diaaflhetion and the general changes of the established government was found ed that measure ao frequently arraigned in later times, the aubatitution of aepteunial for triennial parliamenta. The Miniatry deemed it too periloua to their maater, certainly for themaelvea, to en counter a general election in 1717 ; but the ar gumenta adduced for the alteration, aa if it waa meant to be permanent, were drawn from ita per manent expediency. Nothing can be more ex travagant than what is aometimes confidently pretended by the ignorant, that the legialature exceeded its righta by thia enactment ; or if that cannot legally be advanced, that it at leaat vio lated the truat of the people, and broke in upon the ancient Constitution. The law for triennial parliaments waa of little more than twenty yeara' continuance. It waa an experiment which, aa waa argued, had proved unsuccessf al ; it was subject, like every other law, to be repealed entirely, or to be modified at discretion. As a question of constitutional expediency, the septen nial bill waa doubtleaa open at the time to one serious objection. Everyone admitted that a par liament aubaiating indefinitely during a king'a life, but exposed at aU times to he dissolved at hia pleaaure, would become far too little depen dent on the people, and far too much ao on the Crown. But if the period of ita continuance should thua be extended from three to aeven years, the natural course of encroachment ofthose in power, or aome momentous circumstance like the present, might lead to freah prolongations, and gradually to an entire repeal of what had been thought ao important a aafeguard of its purity. Time haa happily put au end to appre- henaiona, which aie not on that account to be reckoned unreaaonable. Against tbose who pretended that the Parlia ment of England eould not effect, without an appeal to the people, a legislative union with Ireland, William Pitt, that other great constitutional authority, maintained that Par liament had the right to alter even the suc- cesaion to the Throne, to incorporate with it aelf another legialature, to deprive of the fran chise those who elected it, and to create for itself other electors. To be more exact I wiU quote from a speech made by the Ulustrious Sir Robert Peel, on the 27th Marcb, 1846, on the Corn Law question. You wUl find there the opinion of Pitt, Fox and Peel himself, the most weighty English constitu tional authority of tbis century. It is found in Hansards Parliamentary Debates, third series, vol. 85, pagea 224, 225 and 226. Sir Robert Peel said : — But my honorable friend says he did not object to it as impeding the formation of a protection government, but as preventing a dissolution ; and my honorable friend aud others have blamed me for not advising a diaaolution of Parliament. In my opinion, it would have been utterly inconaiat- ent with the duty of a Minister to advise a disso lution of Parliament under the particular circum stances in which this question of the Corn Law was placed. Why should it be ao utterly impos sible for this Parliament to deal with the present proposition? After its eleclioa in 1841, this Parliament passed the existing Corn Law, which diminished protection ; this I'arliament passed the tariff destroying altogether the syatem of prohibition with respect to food ; this Parliament passed the Canada Corn Bill; why should it exceed the functiona of this Parliament to enter tain the preaent proposition 1 But upou much hio-her ground I would not consent to a dissolu tion. That, indeed, I think would have been a "dangeroua precedent" for a Minister to admit that the existing Legislature was incompetent to the entertainment of any question ; that is a pre cedent which I would not establish. "Whatever may have been the circumstancea that may have taken place at au election, I never would 3a,nctlon the view that any House of Commons is incom potent to entertain a measure that is necessary for the weU-being of the community. If you were to admit that doctrine, you would shake the foundationa on which many of the best laws are placed. "Why, that doctrine was propounded at the time of tbe union between England and Ire land, as it had been previously at the time ofthe union between England and Scotland. It was maintained in Irelaad very vehemently, but it was not maintained in this country by Mr. Fox. It waa slightly adverted to by Mr. Sheridan at the time when the message with regard to the union 582 waa delivered. Parliament had been electfld without the slighteat reason to believe it would reaolve that ita functions were to be fused and mixed with those of another Legislature, namely, the Iriah Parliament ; and Mr. Sheridan slightly hinted it aa an objection to the compe tency of Parliament. Mr. Pitt met that objection at the outset in the following manner. Mr. Pitt said : — " The first objection is what I heard alluded to hy the honorable gentleman opposite to me, when His Majesty's message waa brought down, namely, that the Parliament of Ireland ia incom petent to entertain and discuaa the queation, or rather, to act upon the meaaure propose-! without having previously obtained the conaent of the people of Ireland, their constituents. This point, sir, ia of ao much importance that I think I ought not to suffer the opportunity to pasa without illua- trating more fully what I mean. If this principle of the incompetency of Parliament to the deci sion of the meaaure be admitted, or if it be con tended that Parliament has uo legitimate author ity to discuaa and decide upou it, you will be driven to the necessity of recognizing a principle the most dangerous that ever waa adopted in any civilized atate, I mean the principle that Parlia ment cannot adopt any measure, new in its nature and of great importance, without appealing to the constituent and delegating authority for direction. If that doctrine be true, look to what au extent it will carry you. If such an argument could be set up and maintained, you acted without any le gitimate authority wheu you created the repre sentation of the Principality of Wales or of either ofthe countiea palatine of England. Every law that Parliament ever made, without that appeal, either as to its own frame aud conatitution, as to the qualification of the electors or the elected, as to the great and fundamental point of the succes sion to the Crown, was a breach of treaty and an act of usurpation." Then, Mr. Pitt asked, if they turned to Ireland herself, what would they say to the Protestant Parliame t that destroyed the exclusive Protestant franchise, and admitted the Rom.-in Catholica to vote without any freah appeal? Mr. Pitt went ou : — " What must be said by those who have at any time been frienda to any plan of parliamentary reform, and particularly auch as have been most recently brought forward, either in Great Britain or Ireland ? Whatever may have been thought of the propriety of the measure, I never heard any doubt of the competeucy of Parliament to con sider and discuss it. Yet I defy any man to maintain the principle of those plana without contending that, aa a member of Parliament, he poaaeaaes a right to concur in disfranchising thoae who aent him to Parliament, and to aelect othera, by whora he waa not elected, in their stead. I am aure that no aufficient distinction, in point of principle, can be successfully maintained for a single moment ; nor should I deem it necessary to dwell on this point in the manner that I do, were I not convinced that it ia connected iu part with all those false and dangerous notions on the subject of Government which have lately become too prevalent in the world." Mr. Pitt contended, therefore, that Parliament had a right to alter the aucceasion to the Throne, to incorporate with itaelf another legislature, to disfranchise its con stituents, or asaociate others with them. Why, is it poasible for a Minister now to adviae the Crown to diaaolve Parliament on the ground that it ia incompetent to entertain the question what this couutry shall do with the Corn Law ? There could not be a more dangeroua example, a more purely democratic precedent, if I may ao say, than that this Parliament should be dissolved, ou ground of its incompetency to decide any ques tion of thia nature. I am open to the charge, therefore, if it he one, that I did advise Her Majesty to permit this meaaure to be brought for ward in the preaent Parliament. The principle which I hold ia so firmly estab lished, that at the time of the fligh t of James II. in 1688, the Engliah Parliament, that ia to say two branches of it only, declared the succession vacant and gave the Throne to a new dynasty. Hon. Mr. DORION— Hear ! hear ! Hon. Mr. CAUCHON— I wish to be well understood. I do not cite this example aa an authority, becauae the Parliament was incom plete without its third legislative branch, but only for the purpose of shewing to what length the Parliament of Great Britain has carried the exercise of its great prerogative. During the illneas of George III., aa it had been im poaaible to foreaee that such a miafortune would happen, and aa without the action of the Sovereign, neither the adminiatration of the government, which ia conducted in the name of the king, nor legialation, which ia only effectual after receiving the assent of the tbree branches of the legislature, were possible ; un der tbese unforeseen circumstances, the two Houses, at the suggestion of the Ministers created a mechanism to act during the illness of the king, and all that waa done under ita operation became law, and waa regarded as such by the whole British nation and all those charged with the execution of the laws of Par liament. But setting aside these extraordin ary circumstances, which demanded extraor dinary remedies, we assert that Parliament in its integrity has power to alter thfe Conatitu tion and even the succession to the Throne. As to us, we do not propose to go so far ; we simply ask the Imperial Parliament to give us a new Constitution, and even that Parliament wiU only with our consent make use of that power which it has a right to exercise without our consent. (Hear, hear.) Let it be ob- 58S served, Mr. Speaker, that I am only considering now the question of power and right ; the question of what is fit and ex pedient is quite another matter. We niight do well or we might do ill by taking this course, but as we act in our capacity of representatives of the people, it is for us to decide whether it is expedient or advantage ous that an appeal should be had to the peo ple under the circumstances. (Hear, hear.) As regards the sentiments of Great Britain in relation to us, the events which have taken place since the union show that they are al together changed. In 1840 we had a Con stitution imposed upon us against our wiU, and by so doing Great Britain was guilty of in justice towards us. Now they await our decision before they act. In past days England looked upon the colonies as her own special markets. and fortified them by prohibitory duties against foreign trade. Now they are open to the whole world. Formerly we were under a des potic and, oligarchical government, and since 1841 we have had that British Parhamentary Government which the great economist Tur- GOT, more than sixty years before, had ad vised England to extend to her colonies. (Hear, hear.) Thus the Parliament of Great Britain, which had just proclaimed the union with Ireland, incorporated into its legislature the representation of the latter, and constitu ted itself, by its own authority, the first Parliament of the United Kingdom of Great Britain, without recourse to a dissolution and new elections. At the meeting of the Houses they proceeded to the election of a new Speaker for the Commons, pre cisely as after a general election, and all the other formalities were observed whioh, according to custom, accompanied the open ing of new parUaments. You wiU find those details in the Parliamentary History, vol. 35, page 857. Here is another authority which the repubUcan-annexation adversaries of Con federation wUl hardly care to doubt. I find it in pages 164, 165, and 166 of Sedgwick on Statutory and Constitutional Law : — .or are theae merely apeoulative or abatract queationa. We ahall find them presenting them selves in a large class of cases which I am ahout to examine. The difficulty, generally, aeems to have ariaen from a want of accurate notions aa to the boundary line which, under our ayatem, dividea the legislative and judicial powera. I now turn to a more detailed conaideration of the cases la this country, where theae queationa have been conaidered and which, so far aa they go, t«nd to give a practical definition to the term tow, and to define the boundaries which separate the legisla tive from the judicial power. And first, of causes where the legislature haa Bought to diveat itself of real powers. Efibrta have heen made, in sev eral caaes, by the state legislatures to relieve themaelvea of the reaponaibility of their functions, by aubmitting statutea to the will ofthe people, in their primary capacity. But these proceedings have been held, and very rightly, to be entirely unconstitutional and invalid. The duties of legialation are not to he exercised by the people at large. The majority governs, hut only in the preacribed form ; the introduction of practices of thia kind would remove all checka on hasty and improvident legislation, and greatly diminish the benefita of repreaentative government. So where an act to eatabliah free achoola was, hy ita terma, directed to be submitted to the electors of the state, to become a law only in case a majority of the votea were given in its favor, it was held, in New York, that the whole proceeding was entirely void. The Legislature, said the Court of Appeals, have no power to make such aubmis- aion, nor had the people the power to bind each other by acting upon it. They voluntarily sur rendered that power when they adopted the con stitution. The government of this state is democratic ; but it is a repreaentative democracy, and in paasing- general lawa, the people act only through their repreaentativea in the Legialature. Aud in Pennsylvania, in the caae of an exciae statute, the aame atern and aalutary doctrine haa been applied. In aome ofthe more recent state constitutions this rule has been made a part ofthe fundamental law. So in Indiana, the principle is now framed into a constitutional provision whioh vests the legialative authority in a Senate and House of Representatives, aud declares that no act " shall be pasaed, the taking effect of which ahall be made to depend upon any authority except aa provided in the Constitution." And under these provisions it has been held that so much of an act as relatea to its submiaaion to ths popular vote, waa null and void. Hon. Mr. DORION— In England there are aeven or eight acta of Parliament which were submitted to the popular vote before be coming law. Hon. Mr. CAUCHON— In England it is admitted tbat ParUament may do anything and even change the sexes if necesaary, ac cording to tbe doctrine ofthe honorable mem ber for Brome. (Laughter.) The honor able member fbr Hochelaga is an admirer of written constitutions; I am citing authorities to suit him, and which it is quite impossible for bim to reject. (Hear, hear.) All these authorities estabUsh, by incontestable evidence, the power of ParUament in regard to every question that may come before it. Ihere only remains now the question of convenience and expediency, and that question can only be considered by ParUament. In 1717, 1800, 584 and 1846, the British Parliament decided it without appealing to the people. In 1832 it decided the question after an appeal to the people, acting in all those circumstances un der the constitutional responsibility of ita truat. That ia what we shall do in the pre aent difficult conjuncture, awaiting in the ap proaching electiona the approval or condem nation ofour initiative. But let the oppon ents of the scheme be well convinced that we understand, quite aa well aa themaelvea, the entire importance of the vote whioh we are going to give. In closing, Mr. Speaker, I may be allowed to aay to the Houae, that in a debate of- such a solemn character, and when such great destinies as regards the future of the whole of Britiah North America are at stake witbin theae walls, let us have the courage to riae superior to passions, hatreds, personal enmities, and a miaerable apirit of party, in order to allow our minds to aoar more freely in the larger aphere of generoua aentimenta, and of great and noble national aspirations. We poaaeaa all that we want — all the neceasary elements of greatness and proaperity to found an empire in America. Let -ua boldly set to work, sheltered by the flag and protected by the powerful aegis of the Empire which leads us on to undertake the taak. (Prolonged applause.) Hon. Mr. DORION— Mr. Speaker, the honorable member for Montmorency, who has just sat down, having given it as his opinion that all thoae who are oppoaed to Confedera tion are annexationiats and infidela, I muat congratulate him upon having at laat opened hia eyea and eacaped the danger of being drawn into the vortex of the American Union, and perhapa into aomething worae — (laughter) — aa but a abort time ago he waa in the bad company of thoae who are oppoaed to Confed eration. He haa even written a whole volume in oppoaition to the union of the Britiah North American Provincea. (Hear, hear.) I suppoae that at that time he did not look upon himaelf aa an annexationiat, and still less as an infidel, for the simple reason that he combatted with all the power at bis com mand, not only Confederation, but also union of any kind with the Britiah American Pro vincea. (Hear, hear.) In that book, which I have just referred to, and which was writ ten at the end of 1858, the honorable mem ber, after having described the different sys tems under whioh the union might be pro jected, aays ; — " We do uot deaire it, because we do not want union in any form, inasmuch as the same object wiU always be attained, no matter under what form the union may be es tablished." That object, according to the hon. member, was the depriving Lower Canada of the small influence which she exercises on the legislation of the existing union. It is true that the honorable gentleman has written an other book lately. According to that book he no longer sees any other danger for Lower Can ada than that of annexation, and invites every one to turn round as fie has done, and to fol low him with the view of avoiding these dan gers. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) Once more I congratulate him that he is now out of danger, and I will endeavor to follow him with hia two booka in his hand. As it is too late to-night, however, I will do it at the next aitting, and for that purpoae I move that the debate be now adjourned. Hon. Mr. CAUCHON — The honorable member for Hochelaga alludea to the two pamphlets which I have written, one in 1858, and the other in 1865, on the aubject of the Confederation of the provinces. Tho differ ence between the honorable member and me ia aimply thia, that I do not deny what I have written, whilat in order that he may enjoy greater freedom of diacuaaion, he haa thought proper to deny hia actiona in the paat. (Hear, hear.) There is another contradiction which it is of importance to remark. After having asserted, up to 1861, that there was danger for Lower Canada in not granting to Upper Canada representation based upon population, or its subatitute, the Confederation of the two Canadaa, and that the danger was so menacing tbat it was more prudent to give way than to aUow it to be forcibly taken by her — to-day he comes down and maintains that the horizon ia quite aerene ; that there ia no necessity for conatitutional changea. Does he then so easily forget the days of 1858, '59, '60 and '61 ? (Hear, hear.) For my part, Mr. Speaker, I think we should be acting with more dignity, and would ren der more service to the country, if we de voted ourselves 'exclusively to the considerar tion of the queation, setting aside those ac cusations of contradiction from which no one is ever exempt. (Hear, hear.) Hon. Mr. DORION moved the adjoum ment of the debate to tbe sitting to-morrow night at half-past seven. Hon. Attt. Gen. CARTIER moved in amendment that it be adjourned till half-past three to-morrow, to be then the first order of the day after routine business. After some discussion, the amendment was carried, and the Hsuse adjourned. 585 Friday, March 3, 1865. Mr. PERRAULT— Mr. Speaker, it is not without a degree of hesitation easy to be understood that I venture to give my reasons for my vote on the question of the Confederation of the Provinces of Britiah North America. I heaitate, becauae I am conacious how much I fall short in respect of solid information and political experience to enable me to form a healthy and reliable judgment of the various reasons to be alleged on both sides of that vast question, the decision of which is pregnant with such serious consequences to the future welfare of the country. A further cause of my hesitation, Mr. Speaker, is that I see on the Ministerial benches men grown old in political warfare — men who for many yeara have been the leadera and guidea of the majorities in the two Canadaa — supporting the scheme now submitted to ua, and aasur- ing ua that it ia the only remedy for all the difficulties of our present position. Still another cause of my hesitation is that I am aware of the great aeverity with which the Miniaterial press visits all the adversaries of the plan of Confederation, and of the small measure of juatice which it metea out in eatimating the motivea of thoae who oppose this constitutional scheme, however upright their characters or honest the motives which actuate them. But I should consider myself wanting in my duty as a member if, swayed by these mis givings, I did not state my motives in thia House for my opposition to the project 'of Confederation. On so important a question it is a duty to my constituents, it is a duty which I owe to myself, that I should justify the responsibility which I take upon myself in resisting a measure ^wbich is so strongly supported in this House, and I should think I failed in my dut;y and was unworthy of the seat which I fill in it, if I did not add force to my opposition by citing the history of the past, by pourtraying the prosperity of the present, and by point- ingout the dangers to be feared in the future which is preparing for us. I have been long studying the general question of a Con federation, and I am of opinion tbat the Provinces of British North America are destined to form, at some future time which may be more or less remote, a vast Confed eration, in which the two races of French and English origin will be seen struggling jn the career of progress for the common 75 prosperity of both ; and for the better con venience of studying the question, I visited the Lower Provinces in 1863, by way of the Gulf, and in 1864 by the Bay of Fundy. I am bound to say that I found the people everywhere in eaay circumstances, and in telligent, and doing honor to that part of the country. I was then enabled to appre ciate the advantages and tbe inconveniences attending on the decision of the question of Confederation generally. On my return from my last journey, which I made in the month of August, 1864, in company with a certain number of the members of both Houses, it was said by the press that I had in several companies declared myself favor able to the plan of a Confederation of all the provinces. At that time the Conference at Charlottetown had not taken place, and pub lic opinion had already busied itself with classifying the members ot this House aa favorera or opponents of Confederation. I had already, at that time, publicly expresaed my opinion on the queation through the preaa, in order that I might bring it under the notice of my conatituents, and I muat declare that the opinion which I then ex preaaed coinoidea with the line of conduct to which I atill adhere, and that I have not found it neceaaary to alter my poaition in any one point from what it then waa. In order that I may ahow thia in the clearest manner, I shall read what I wrote in the month of August last, as perfectly explana tory of what I always thought of the scheme of confederating the Provinces of British North America. Here is what I wrote : — This question of serious import, on which the minds of all our political world are so busy, in the present crisis, is ao difficult of aolution, that it would be an act of presumption in me to at tempt even to diacuss it, while our public men of the highest mark are still doubtful whether to favor °it or not. Aa the Minerve, however, in its last number, claims me as one of the new con verts to the great scheme of Confederation, I should thiuk myself wanting to my duty and my convictions if I failed to let the worid know my impressions of the present position, as I under stand it. Those who consider the inexhaustible resources of the Provinces of British North Ame rica have no doubt that we possess all the ele ments of a great power. In territory we have a teuth part of the habitable globe, capable of supporting a population of 100,000,000 of per sons. Bounded on the east by the Atlantic, on the weat by the Pacific, our territory ia further a''cessible by the navigation ofthe internal aeas, which bound it on the south. Our rivers com plete the incomparable netrwork of communica- 586 tion hy water, and, like vivifying arteriea, hear on their bosom to the ocean and the markets of the world the heavy produce of the western plains, the lofty pines of our forests, our ores of gold and copper, our furs collected in our hunting grounds, and the produce of our fisheries iu the gulf. Jn thia vaat field of productiveness, wheie all the materials of immense wealth exist, we need a moving power, and the inexhaustible coal fielda of Nova Scotia are at hand to furniah it. British North America, therefore, looma iu the future with gigantic proportions, and it depends only on ourselvea to decide whether the French element shall have a large share of the power which is to grow up within its limits. With energy and union, we shall keep the ground we have gained in a struggle of a hundred years. The past is a warranty of success in the future. Yet must we not hurry matters, nor overrun the natural progress of events. "While we an- still too few to take the offensive, our policy should he one of resistance. Accordingly, before pledging myself to the support of Conlederation, which is a total change of the basis of our present Constitu tion, I would be perfectly sure that we shall not loae au inch of ground. More than this ; I would permit no change to be made in our present Con stitution, except in .is far as it would ensure a larger measure of prosperity for our couutry, more powerful protection for our institutions, and the absolute inviolability of our rights. For I have not deviated in the smallest degree from the terms of iny address to the electors of Richelieu, when I had Ihe honor to solicit their votes as their representative in the Legislative Assembly. In that address, I declared myself opposed to any concession whatever to Upper Canada. Accord- iugly, if it should appear that the scheme of Coafederatiou, which is to be laid before the Pro- -yincial Parliament in its next session, would assure to French-Canadians greater advantages than they enjoy under the present Constitution, I should, as a thing of course, be iu favor of Confederation. But if it should be otherwise ; if, :n however small a degree, Confederatior should appe.'ir to be a concession to Upper Cauada, to the detriment of our institutions, our language or our laws, I shall to the utmost extent of my power oppoae any change whatever in the present Constitution. Of course I am not one of those who \fould bound our political horizon and place limits to our great ness as a people ; on the contrary, nothing would render me happier thau the creation of a vaat political organization, spread over an immense territory. The heart-burnings between localities and individuala would thenceforward cease and die out from mere insignificance, as compared with the great interests which would be confided to the watchful guardianship of our statesmen, and become the subject of their deliberations iu the councils ofthe nation. Then the laudable ambi tion of achieving a great name in a great couutry would produce a race of great men, of whom we might be justly proud. But if this glorious future ia to be purchased only at the price of our absoip- tion, of our language, ajid all that ia dear to ua aa Frenchmen, I for one could not heaitate hetween what we may hope for while atill remain ing what we are, pnd the baatardlzing of our race paid as the price of advantages to come. To aum up all, therefore, I declare for the Constitution such as it is, which, so lar, haa yielded us a greater amount of advantage than all the proposed changea would; and such, I venture to aay, is the opinion of the majority of our Legialative Aasembly. But if the projected scheme aecurea to ua in the conven tion all the privileges which the French-Canadiana now enjoy iu the present Parliament, and if, in the whole and in every part, it secures to us greater advantages than those which are guaranteed to ua by the Constitution, I shall prefer Confederation to all other changes. I am bound to declare that this way of look ing at the question, in the month of August last, haa undergone no change in my mind, aince I heard the explanations given by the members of the Adminiatration. The skill which they have evinced certainly does them great honor, but neither tbe argumenta of Miniatera, nor thoae of the members of the House who support the scheme, bave convinced me ; and I rely on being able to show in my remarks what are the grounds of my opposition, and to juatify, according to my way of looking at it, the reaponaibility which I undertake in opposing a project which has found auch powerful aupportera in thia Houae. I trust I ahall be able to show, first, the inexpediency of a constitutional change ; second; the hostUe object of Confederation; third, the diaaatroua conaequencea of the adoption of the project of Confederation. The inexpediency of a constitutional change muat be perfectly evident to any one who conaidera for a moment the preaent proaperity of Canada, and who takes the trouble to examine the progress made by United Canada since 1840. The Hon. Attorney General Eaat aaya that " the union has done ita work." But ia that quite certain ? When we compare the past with the present, have we not reason to be proud of our growth ainoe . 840, and of the fact that within the past twenty-five yeara, our progresa, both social aud material, haa kept pace with that of the firat nations in the world ? During ihe^ past twenty-five yeara we have progreaaed poUtically in a manner unprecedented in colonial hiatory ; and Canada has furniahed a magnificent inatance of the good result of reaponaible government in an Engliah colony, notwithatanding diveraity of racea and religioua. Iu i840, we had just terminated a glorious struggle, during which, unfor tunately, many lives had been loat-- 587 struggle undertaken in order to secure responsible government, which had, up to that time, been refused, and which was then accorded ua as the reward of tho struggle. At that period Lower Canada waa united as one man ; she had forwarded to England petitions, bearing 60,000 signatures, asking for responsible government. We then bad in our ranks men who did not shrink from the struggle, men accustomed to resist oppression, men who had grown up in the midst of a strife with an arrogant minority, which sought to overrule the majority; and these were the great men who secured the triumph of our nationality, and upheld the rights of Lower Canada, by securing respon sible govercment at the same time that the union was forced upon ua. Let us now see the result of their labors. Is it true that we have progressed both socially and ma terially since tbat period? Any one who reflects on what Canada was in 1840, and what it is in 1865, cannot but admit that we have progressed in a degree almost unpre cedented in the history of the prosperity of nations ; that we have immensely extended our territory, by clearing away the foreat ; that our population has increased in a wonderful manner, that that population ia prosperoua and contented, and that we have progreaaed materially and socially in a manner heretoforce unprecedented under the colonial system. In the social order, let us examine, first, our legislation and aystem in municipal mattera. Can a more perfect aystem be found anywhere ? Haa not every locality »li the powers neceaaary for effecting all improvementa of real neceaaity? It ia aince the union that we have perfected thia ayatem, and that we have endowed our rural districts with the means of effecting all •im provements they may deaire, and particularly as regards road mattera and the making of new roads, in order to facilitate the transport of farm produce to market. (Hear, hear.) But I need not dweU on the progreas we have made and the reforma we have carried out, as regards legislation. That which had chiefly contributed, from the first estab hshment of English rule, to arrest our pro gress in this respect was the Legislative Council of the former Legislature, and that which existed from the union up to 1856. Siuce that period have we not obtained an elective Legislative Council, and must not our greatest reforms be considered the con sequence ? With the union and responsible government, did we not also secure the right of being represented by French-Canadian fellow-countrymen in the Executive Coun cil ? And since then have we not enjoyed all the advantage of a system of government under which the people can, not only ex press their wants, but enforce their wishes ? These are reforma of the higheat importance, but we have obtained yet more. "When, in 1840, the union of the Canadas took place, landed property in Lower Canada was sub jected to the feudal system, which had been introduced with all its features derogatory to the dignity of man, with all its charges upon property, and all its vexations for the censitaire. "Under that system no property whatever could change hands without "being submitted to a heavy charge in the form of lods et ventes for the benefit of the seignior, and to cens et rentes whioh considerably reduced ita value. Witb the political rights conferred on us by tbe union, the seigniorial syatem of neceaaity diaappeared, giving us property in freehold, the same as in the neighbouring States and in all civilized nationa. It ia alao aince the union that we have conaolidated our laws ; that we have created a system of public instruction which imparta the bleaainga of education to the moat remote parta of the province. At the preaent moment we have a achool syatem which doea honor to the couutry, and the intelligent, however poor they may be, can, almoat without charge, acquire an edu cation. Now, each village, each conceaaion haa ita school, and the child of the back woodsman dwelling in the midat of the foreat, can there obtain a degree of elementary inatruotion aufficient to enable him to enter upon a career of honor and fortune, ahould hia talenta, hia induatry aud hia energy fit him for playing a part in politica, in the aciencea, in the arta or in the ranka ofthe clergy of hia oountry. It ia a remarkable fact, Mr. Speaker, and one which I deem it right to mention, that the majority of the notable men who have attained aeata on the judicial bench, in the Miniatry and even in the Episcopal chair, came forth from our bumble country homea, and qualified them selvea in our educational inatitutiona, where inatruotion ia afforded aU but gratuitously, by dint of talent, perseverance, atudy andiudua- try. It waa the preaaure of want in the family homeatead that in many caaea created in the breaata of our moat eminent pubhc men, tbe eager deaire of attaining a high position by meana of atudy and labor. Since the union our system and means of pubhc 588 instruction have made immense progress. Before the union we had no Catholic uni versity in tbe country. Young men intend ing to enter the liberal profeaaiona were compelled, inatead of following a regular courae, to content themselves with what they could acquire in the office of their patrons, who were not in all cases competent for the task they undertook, or elae to go abroad at great expense for many years, in order to obtain in England or France a certificate of qualification. To-day we havo in Lower and in Upper Canada univeraities rivalling Eu ropean univeraitiea of the same class, and we have alao a body of young students, who, fifteen or twenty yeara hence, will give proof of the excellence of our univeraity aystem, and of the high curriculum of studies theae inatitutions have now rendered univeraal. Now, in face of the degree of progreaa I have juat referred to, in the aocial order, can it be truly said that the union haa run ita day, when all theae marvela are ita creation ? When we are atronger and better educated than we were twenty yeara ago ; when we have new political righta ; when we have a free right to the aoil, and -when we have created a system of public instruction such as we now enjoy, can it be aaid that the union has done ita work, and that it muat be broken up ? For my part, Mr. Speaker, I am not pre pared toaupport that assertion. Theunion has been for us a great means of progreas, aince it has enabled us to secure all these resulta in the aocial order. The Hon. Attorney Gen eral Eaat has told us that Confederation will procure ua material advantagea atill greater, and that that ia all we want. I deny, Mr. Speaker, that material interesta form the sole ambition of the French-Canadian popu lation. We attach a far higher importance to the preaervation of our own inatitutiona. But even aa regarda material intereata, apart from the advantagea, in the social order, derived from the union, we have still a vaat field before ua aa regarda the progreaa we have made since 1840. In order to see what the union has done in thia reapect, it ia sufficient to look at our ayatem of railroada, and above all, at the great Grand Trunk line from Sarnia to Rivifere du Loup, which haa increased our commerce tenfokl, opened our dense forests to colonization, and multiplisd our resources to an incalculable extent ; it is sufficient to look at our ports of Montreal and Quebec during the season of navigation, filled with vast forests of shipping, to see our trans-atlantic steamers bearing off weekly the products of our oountry to the most distant European markets, in exchange for the articles of import we require. And if we ascend our great River St. Lawrence, what do we see ? We find canals, which in their dimensions, the materiala of which they are constructed, and in their extent, are unsur passed in any part of the world. I main tain, Mr. Speaker, that there is nothing to be found in Europe to compare with our artificial water communications. In England, for instance, the canals are only miserable gutters, and the little boys, in rowing their hoata, can touch both aidea at once with the enda of their oara. Here our canala pass through the whole country, and connect the moat remote parts of it with the markets of Europe. A.nd, in fact, a ship of tour hundred tons burden can now sail from Chicago, cross the ocean, and diacharge her cargo in the docka at Liver pool. The union which haa given ua such canals, such railways, has not run its day, has not done its work, as the Hon. Attorney General East pretends. On the contrary, with such means as these, we are justified in anticipating from the union atill greater results in the future. If we look at our colonization, we behold tbe foreat receding before the axe of the settler, the products of our land increaaed tenfold, and our aettlera locating in advance of the aurveyor ou our wild lands. What the union has already done for us is certainly great, but the advantages it has in store for us are still greater, if we know how to avail ourselves of the means it places at our com mand. Therefore it is that I do not think the union has done its work, but that, on the contrary, it will yet secure our pros perity. And hence it is tbat I wish to preserve the union and remain under allegiance to Her Most Gracious Majesty the Queen of England, and refuse to accept conatitutional changea which muat of necea aity imperil our future aa a nation. (Hear, hear.) It haa often been said that Lower Canada was a drag on Upper Canada, retard ing her advancement in the march of pro gresa, and that a new Conatitution waa neceaaary. I deny the juatice of the accuaa tion, and I maintain that such a charge could only emanate from Upper Canadian fanaticiam. True, the French-Canadian race haa been characterized at Toronto by a Governor General aa an "inferior race," but the insult thus offered to Lower Canada has not a single fact to bear it out. Moreover, 589 I am happy to bring forward the testimony of the Hon. Finance Minister (Hon. Mr. Galt) to refute these assertions, to answer these insults, and to prove that the prosperity of Canada is due to the active co-operation of the French-Canadians — not only in the Executive, but in the Legislative Assembly. In a letter written from London in 1860, the Hon. Minister of Finance says : — From 1849 up to this day, the French Canadian majority haa been fairly repreaented in the Minia try, and it ia with ita powerful co-operation aud the part it haa taken in initiating every measure, and the aupport of ita votea in Parliament, that all great reforma have been realized. Well, if it be true that the French-Canadian members of the Government, since 1849, have, by their unceasing efforts, obtained the realization of these reforms, why is it now sought to destroy the Constitution under which they were obtained, and to create a new state of things which will diminish that influence whieh we now enjoy ? It is bo- cause, notwithstanding our material pros perity, the old aggression of race against race, the former state of antagonism and ill-will, has not disappeared. The end pro posed to be attained by the Government in making these changes is a vast and noble end, I admit. It is the creation of an im mense Empire, which will redound to our glory and to that of England. But it seems to me that this will not be the necessary result of the means whioh are being taken to attain it. (Hear, hear.) Whenever the great measures of reform to which I have already referred have been submitted to ParUament, we have seen public men devote themselves exclusively to these measures, and labor for their realization. We have seen parties arrayed for or against these great queations — the abolition of the Seigni orial Tenure, the election of the members of the Legislative Council, the construction of our railways and canals, &c. In view of these great questions, there was no room for the contemptible personal considerations, and the miserable wrangling of the church door; but as soon as these great reforms were obtained, there was no longer any ground for opposition to the Government on these subjects; yet subjects for the exhibi tion of discontent and opposition had to be devised, with the view of attaining power, and of satisfying individual ambition. They then addressed themselves to the prejudices of race and religion. A cry was raised in Up per Canada that French-Canadian domination could no longer be endured, and that an end must be put to it. No heed was taken of the progress that had yet to be made, but it seemed as though nothing required to be done in order to attain suoces?, but to destroy the national character of a large section of Canada. They complained of French domi nation, the influence of the clergy, and of the great number of religious institutions in Canada ; and what was the remedy proposed to put an end to all these evUs which Upper Canada could no longer tolerate ? The hon. member for South Oxford (Hon. Mr. Brown) was imported, and brought out here from Scotland, to cast the flaming torch of discord between the two populations, and to inflame them one against the other. I emagine that since that time the Hon. Mr. Buchanan must have more than once regret ted this importation, which was not quite in the regular line of his commercial operations. And when this gentleman had been imported, who has been the cause of all our dissen sions up to the present time, parties were organized under his command as they are this day. To diminish or destroy the in fluence of the French-Canadians in Parlia ment, the hon, member for South Oxford raised a clamour for representation based upon population, which was reechoed from one end of Upper Canada to the other. These cries, the offspring of fanaticism, were rejected by Lower Canada with unanimity on the part of our public men. The hon. member for South Oxford, finding that this cry for representation based on popu lation was a magnificent war-horse, made use of it to form a party. Since that period he has aUowed nothing to stand in his way. He haa calumniated every pubUc man and all the institutions which were held in respect by the inhabitants of Lower Canada; he has attacked, with the greatest fury, all that was dear to us as Frenchmen and CathoUcs ; and by this means he gained his object; and we ha-ye seen all the western farmers, all the inhabit ants of Canada West, cry out that here we were aU under the domination of the clergy, and that the English and Protestant popula tion ought not to submit to so heavy a yoke. He knew that the English element was fanatic and aggressive, and by means of this cry the then leader of the Opposition in Upper Canada succeeded in forming a phalanx so strong, that Lower Canada has been compelled to yield some portion of the 590 ground whieh she had conquered in her str-iggles of former days. I do not believe that there ia a aingle member for Lower Canada v\ ho would wish to change our present Constitution in the manner now propoaed, were he not forced to it by Upper Canada. We are, then, about to give up some of our franchises and our rights in this new struggle against the apirit of encroachment and domination manifested by the Engl sh race. Hon. members who support the measure will tell you that they are giving up a part of our righta, in order that what remaina may be aaved from deatruc tion, and that they may not loae all thoy now enjoy, before any lengthened period ahaU have elapaed. But waa thia clamor in favor of repreaentation baaed upon population aincere on the part of thoae who uaed it aa a meana of attacking ua ? Waa it in reality a remedy for the evila of wbich they complained ? No, Mr. Speaker, I do not think it waa. It was aimply an electoral plat form, by which to attain power and consum mate the encroachment upon our rights con templated by the leadera ofthe movement. I do not deem it necessary to repeat here all the argumenta brought to bear againat the de mand for repreaentation by population, in eighty apeechea delivered in 1860, during the diaeuasion of that exciting queation ; but I remember that debate with all the more pleaaure, that the French-Canadians shewed tbat they retained some veatigea of firmneaa in the day of battle, and of perae- verance in the maintenance of our righta, which our fathera had ao often manifeated. On that occaaion the Hon, Attorney General Eaat (Hon. Mr. Cartier) deaerved the approbation of his country for the reaiatance he made to that unjust demand on the part of Upper Canada, with that energy and tenacity he is so well known to display ; he waa the champion of our rights. Why, then, doea he to-day come down and propoae a compromiae with hia opponenta of those days? Ia it just at the moment when the leadera of the Upper Canadian Oppoaition had, by entering the JIacdonald-Sioottb Government, absolutely rejected the principle of repreaentation based upon population, that he ahould abandon the struggle ? Is it at the moment the Maodonald-Sicotte Governmeut had obtained separate schools for the Catholics of Upper Canada, that the party led by the honorable member for South Oxford waa to be dreaded '! Is it at the moment when the law providing aeparate schools for fhe Catholics of Upper Canada was the subject of a triumph, which the Hon. Attorney General had never suc ceeded in obtaining during the whole time he has been in power, that the Hon. Attorney General should cease from further efforts, throw down his arms, and de clare as a French-Canadian that we eould no longer hold the breach, and that we must make concessions to Upper Canada ? Did not the Macdonald-Sicotte Adminis tration make a close queation of repre sentation by population ? Were not all the members of that Government bound to oppoae it? Yea, Mr. Speaker, the Hon. Attorney- General Eaat waa guilty of a grievoua wrong, when he defeated that Government by a hostile majority composed of French-Cana diana. It waa after that hoatile vote that Upper Canada inaiated on her right to renew her claima to repreaentation based on popu lation, and that we are compelled to-day to make conoesaiona. For my part, Mr. Speaker, I have never been convinced of the aincerity of those who made use of the cry for repreaentation baaed on population, for I have never seen any other means employed to obtain the aid of the western farmers in securing more eaaily the reina of power. Haa the principle of representation based on population ever served as the basis of a government having monarchical ideas, like thoae whieh actuate the existing Govern ment ? Now we are aeeking for a Confeder ation for which there ia no precedent — not a Confederation like thoae to be found in other countries which have adopted that form of government, but a monarchical Confedera tion. (Hear, hear.) It ia sought to retain the English Constitution, and yet it ia assert ed that representation by population is a just principle, and that it muat be extended to Upper Canada. Doea not the Honorable Attorney General Eaat (Hon. Mr. Cartier) remember the arguments he urged in 1860 against this principle ? Did he not then declare with the view of showing that the principle was neither a just one nor one recognized in the Britiah Conatitution, that if it were appUed to the Britiah Parliament the city of London alone would have thirty membera inatead of aixteen, and that Scotland would aend many more members to Parliament than she does now ? Did he not assert that rotten boroughs, containing only a few hun dred inhabitants, had one representative, and that counties containing 100,000 in- habitants had no more ? Have these argu- 591 ments, then so full of power, lost all their force and value to-day ? Have tbey become futile since the alliance of the Honorable Attorney General East and the hon. member for South Oxford ? Can they no longer be used to save our Constitution and our liberties ? How can the party wbich has so long been kept together by its opposition to the principle of representation by popula tion, say to-day that it is a just principle, and that it must be conceded ? 1 confess, Mr. Speaker, that I cannot understand why we should concede to-day what we refused in 1860. It is true that I do not possess the experience of the hon. gentlemen who now occupy the , Ministerial benches, and that, perhaps, it may be wiser to bend to-day than to be broken to-morrow ; but when I study the history of the past, when I look at things as they are, and look for ward to the future which is now proposed for us, I only see in the scheme of Con federation a remedy whioh is more violent than the disease, and which, instead of removing the difliculties it ia proposed to eradicate, will only have the eflect of pro ducing reaulta the moat unfavorable to the peace and prosperity of our country. I state 1 then. Mi. Speaker, that the queation of repreaentation by population, whieh haa been the principal cauae of the Con federation acheme, waa excluded from the political programme of the Macdonald- Sicotte Government, and that the Upper Canada majority, the leadera of which, throughout their whole political career, had 80 loudly demanded this conceaaion in favor of Upper Canada, had bound itaelf not to raise that exciting question within the halls of the Legislature, at least during the exist ence of the Maodonald-Sicott.. Miniatry. (Hear, hear.) I atated that, thanka to the patriotic firmneaa of that Adminiatration, Lower Canada waa enabled for two yeara to live in peace and enjoy the fruita of a tran quiUity unknown for ten years previous, and during two sessions the question of represen tation based on numbers ceased lo be a sub ject of strife and fanatical attack on the part of Upper Canada. (Hear, hear.) It was at that period that the honorable member for South Oxford asked for s committee to enquire as to the means of settling the sec tional difficulties, by effecting a change in the basis of the present Conatitution. (Hear, hear.) Well, Mr. Speaker, what took place then ? We saw that able speaker, that indefatigable and powerful advocate of the claims of Upper Canada against the Lower Canada section, unable to find in this House ' more than forty men prepared to aupport him in hia unjust demand for a conatitutional change which the preaent Adminiatration are about to grant. (Hear, hear.) We saw that powerful politician humbled, and giving up in despair all hopes of succeeding with the House — and, for my part, Mr. Speakek, I must say that I felt pained at his poaition — aaking a leave of abaence in order to avoid a humiliating defeat, and returning to hia home to lament hia fall and the loss of an influence based solely on fanaticiam and prejudice. (Hear, hear.) Subsequently, Mr. Speaker, the House witnessed an act which I do not desire to characterize now ; we saw the Administration which had the courage to chain down the monster of re presentation by population, overthrown by a French-Canadian majority ! (Hear, hear.) Yea, Mr.SPEAKER, that Liberal government, whioh had afforded so much security to our inatitutiona by maintaining intact our preaent Conatitution, waa defeated by a French-Cana dian majority of thia Houae. I do not intend, when I aay thia, to attack my fellow- countrymen, far from it; but I wiah to trace the parliamentary history of our country, and I do not heaitate to aasert that that vote gave a fatal blow to our in fluence aa French-Canadiana, and that poaterity will record that vote, which is now a matter of history, aa a fatal act by which our public men aacriflced to party apirit the deareat of our intereata. (Hear, hear.) I fearlessly aasert, Mr. Speaker, that for fifteen yeara our affaira had not been admi nistered by men more aincerely devoted to our intereata and better able to protect the political libertiea, the intereata and the institutiona of Lower Cauada. What have we aeen during the paat fifteen years in this House ? We have witnessed party appeals •to prejudices and the most insulting person alities ; and, in fact, the lowering of the moral status of our national representatives, as the natural result. We have seen the men best qualified to enforce, on the floor of thia House, the righta of the people, refuaing to come fbrwavt. at elections, because tbey aaw that the poaition of a member of Parlia ment no longer conferred tbat degree of dignity and poaition which made it an object of ambition in better times. We have seen men of eminence, who had labored in behalf of the interests of their constituents for many long years, abandoning their political 592 career in disgust, and retiring to the seclusion of their homes. Then it was that we saw a French-Canadian majority voting down a Ministry whoae political programme afforded more effectual guarantees for Lower Canada interests than that of any previous government., (Hear, hear.) But a blind and paltry party spirit induced them to sacrifice, for a momentary triumph, the general intereata of their country ; and the majority, by ita vote, decreed our national downfall. (Hear, hear.) Well, Mr. Speaker, under the new Government we found repre sentation by population again made a subject of discussion in our Legislature; and now, there ia no denying it, that unfortunate conceaaion, which places ua at the mercy of Upper Canada, haa become an accompliahed fact. (Hear, hear.) I stated, juat now, Mr. Speaker, that the hon. member for South Oxford waa unable to obtain hia committee under the Macdonald-Sicotte Adminia tration, an eaaentially liberal one. (Hear, hear.) On reference to the Journals of thia House of that period, what do we find ? The Miniatry which succeeded that Govern ment had hardly taken posseasion of the Treaaury benches, when the Hon. Mr. Brown again came before the Houae aak ing for a committee, and in that inatance with more success. I had the honor to pro pose an amendment to hia motion, but my amendment waa rejeoted, and amongat the membera who figure in that unfortunate divi sion, I find the namea of the Hon. Miniater of Public Works, the Hon. Provincial Secretary, and the Hon. Attorney General East. Mr. Speaker, this is a very significant fact, and one extremely deserving of attention at the present moment. In pressing that motion upon the House, I maintained that our policy was to act on the offensive, instead of merely defending ourselvea, aa we had up to that time done; that we ought to unite as one man to obtain tbe re-enactment of the proviso to the 26th clauae of the Act of Union, which had been ahamefuUy atruck out in 1856, when we obtained an elective Legialative Council (Hear, hear.) Now, on thia point, whicb was perfectly clear, we found theae aame Miniaters voting for tbe rejection of the amendment, which asserted aright sacred to French-Canadians. Did not this vote imply that thoae who made thia cowardly conceaaion were prepared to yield again in the proposed conatitutional changea ? Yes, Mr. Speaker, 1 do not hesitate to assert, that from that moment. Upper Canada understood that our politioal leaders, who, up to that time, had shown an unyielding front, were about to give way. And when the Hon. Mr. Brown submitted hia propoaition to the House, all the Engliah membera united in an overwhelming majority, and he carried his point aucceaafully, notwithatanding that all the French-Canadian membera voted againat it, except the hon. member for Rouville (Mr. Poulin), who diaplayed the questionable courage of thus committing an act I ahall not attempt to qualify. (Hear, hear.) I need not dwell upon the conaequences of that vote, for they are now patent to the whole country, and the hon. member for South Oxford himaelf haa told us in this House that the acheme of Confederation waa the creation of his constitutional committee ; that the appointment of that committee was the firat atep in the direction of the object for which he had atruggled during hia whole political career, and thatthe acheme of Con federation now before the Houae waa an ample reward for his unremitting efforts, and a complete justification of the princi ples he haa aupported in the atruggle be tween Upper Canada and Lower Canada. Subaequently, Mr. Speaker, the Taoh^- Macdonald Government aucoumbed on a queation of finance, and, finding that they could not sustain themselves without the asaiatance of the Oppoaition, that aame Gov ernment called into the Cabinet the man who had proved most hostile to Lower Canadian interests, and with whom they had ever lived in unexampled antagonism. From that alliance resulted the acheme of Confederation which is now aubmitted to ua, and which concedea the principle of repreaentation baaed on population. Ought the Lower Canadian party to have made ao important a conceaaion to Upper Canada ? I am prepared to estab lish by figures that that question contained within itself its own remedy ; and those who voted in favor of ita conceasion are in no way juatifiable, looking at the queation in any point of view whataoever. The future held out to ua a poaitive a.saurance that the grounds of this demand would no longer exist at a period which is close at hand ! When we look into the question of the respective populations of the two Canadas, we shall observe at a glance that that of Upper Canada is in great part English and Protest ant, and, by reference to the last census, we shall find that a very large proportion of the 593 annual increase in that section is the result of emigration. From 90,000, which was the total amount during the single year 1847, immigration gradually fell to 10,000 in the year 1860. But there is another important fact which it would be well to bear in mind ; it is that Lower Canada, which increased slowly at firat, because her material and moral development was impeded 'oy the political institutions under which she was governed, and becauae she had no colonization roada through her foresta, still beheld her sturdy children emigrating from their native soil to the United States in search of daily bread and liberty. The increase in the population of Lower Canada was slow and small then ; but as railways were built and highways were opened, the population was found to increase in nearly the same proportion as the diminution was observed to be going on, in reapect of annual increaae, in Upper Canada. I maintain further, Mr. Speaker, that the cenaua of 1801 is no basis from which to estimate exactly the total popula tion of the two sections ; that conaua ia merely a tiasue of errora of a aerioua nature, which demonstrate tho inaccuracy of the whole. Thua when we find it atated that at Three Rivers there is not a .aingle Catholic church; that at Hamilton there ia but one; tbat in the year 1861 there were but three veaaels built in Lower Canada, while we know that at Quebec alone more than sixty were constructed, we m%j with perfect safety asaert that aimilar iaaccuraoies must needs have occurred in the totala of the populations of the two sectiona. We know that in Upper Canada the true total of the population haa been greatly exaggerated. Did not all their journals declare that the census of 1861 must indicate a very large total population in favor of Upper Canada over Lower Canada ? And, accordingly, the reault ahewed a majority of nearly 300,000 soula in favor of that province. To such an extent was the number of the living increaaed, and the number of the dead diminiahed, that the total number of living children under one year old was 8,000 more than the total number of births in the year. (Hear, hear.) lam quite willing to admit that the climate of Upper Canada is most salubrious and highly favorable to the development of that part of the population of a less age than one year, but even then there is some difficulty in understanding how it is that in twelve months some of them do not die, and how 76 there can be 8,000 more of less than a.year old than wero born during the preceding twelve months. ney (Hon. Mr. Cauchon). But aa that honorable gentle man was not in his place iu the afternoon, ho 627 had yielded the floor to the honorable mem ber for Richelieu (Mr. Perrault). The honorable member lor Montmorency, he ob served, was stUl out of the House, and he should like to defer his remarks till the hon orable gentleman should be in his seat. (Cries of "Adjourn," and "Goon.") Col. HAULTAIN then rose to addreaa the House. He said — If the House will permit me, I shall relieve the honorable mem ber for Hochelaga (Hon. Mr. Dorion). It is not surprising to me, Mr. Speaker, that there should be this hanging back on the part of honorable members with regard to express ing their views on this subject, as so much has been said about it, that it is now, I won't say thoroughly, but very nearly worn out. And for my own part, in common, I suppose, with all who will have to speak at this stage of the debate, I feel reluctant to trespass on the time of tho House. At the same time, I cannot properly call it a trespaaa, but muat rather conaider it a duty. On a mat ter of thia very creat importance, involving the interesta of ao large a portion of tbia C(m- tinent, I think it behovea most of us to ex press our opiniona with the best ability that we can bring to the subject. (Hear, hear,) We havo had thia queation discussed from so many pointa of view, and, I preaume, by the ableat men who occupy public positions in Canada, that a humble individual like myself muat feel great diffidence in aaying another word on the subject. But it ia no amall en couragement to know — at any rate I feel it to be an encouragement in apeaking in advocacy of the acheme — that I am in auch good com pany, that the leading men in thia province, the leading men in the British Provincea gen eraUy, and I may even say the leading men in the Britiah Empire, are aU agreed aa to the deairableness of what is now proposed, and as to the wisdom which has been displayed in the framing of the scheme now aubmitted for our adoption. 1 do not expect to aay anything new, and the fear of repeating what has already been said makes me reluctant to say anything at aU; and were I to consult my own feelings, I have no doubt I sbould be silent, and would rise only when you call on us, Mr. Speaker, to give our votes either for or against the reso lutions in your hand. I think every honor able member who has spoken iu this debate has expressed his senae of the reaponsibility resting upon him, when addressing the House and the country on a matter of such vast im portance to us all. I feel equally with others how great is this responsibUity, and have en deavoured to bring the best powers of my mind to the consideration of tbe queation. Tbe more we conaider it, tbe more we look into tbe future in connection with our present movement, the larger the importance, I believe, it must assume in our minds. It not only affects the interests of Canada, but of all tbe British Provinces of this continent. Its pro bable results wiU materially affect the future, both ofthe British Empire and of the neigh bouring republic, and, therefore, more or less the future of the world at large. I do not think that I am using languge at all exagger ated. From the best consideration I have been able to give to this subject, I believe there are under-lying the question now before us principles of the greatest importance to the world. I believe there are principles in volved in our present action that must very much determine the character of the institu tions that will generally prevail. The im pression upon my own mind is, that if suc cessful, we sball give greater stability and a more permanent foothold to the principles that obtain in the British Constitution ; but that failing in our present object, we shall see the decadence of these principles on this contin ent, and the advance of those principles which obtain in the neighbouring republic. (Hear, hear.) The more I consider it, the stronger ara 1 of the opinion, that at tho present time the principles of democracy and of monarch- ism — if I may so expresa it — are at atake ; and, conaidering it in thia view, I look upon the acheme before ua aa calling for the moat cordial and earneat aupport of every man who has learned to value the atability, the mo deration, and the juatice which have cha racterized the British nation aa compared with any other nation that exiata on, the face of the globe. The great queation before ua ia that of union — a practicable and attainable union — a union of pro vincea owning allegiance to the same Crown, possessing, generally, similar inatitutiona, similar systema of government, the aame lan guage, the aame laws, the aame dangera, the same enemies. Our institutions are generally similar, although, no doubt, from having been isolated for so great a length of time, and having had no intercourae one with the other to apeak of, there ia an idioayncracy attached to each of the provincea aa they now exiat, and the longer we remain separate the greater the divergence muat be, and the more difficult union between ua will be of accompliahment. The advocates of this scheme propose the union of aU these provinces. It is a trite 628 proverb that " union is strength, and division is weakness." So universally accepted is this statement, that no man can venture to deny its correctness. And I feel, as an advocate of union, that our position is one whioh is unassailable, and tho arguments must indeed be atrong whicii would convince me that we are not going in the right direction when moving towarda union and conaolidation. (Hear, hear.) Apart from the intrinaic force and power of union, whicii would be in itaelf sufficient to call ua in that direction, Canada haa apecial reasons for desiring tbat the Brit ish provinces should draw together more closely than they have yet done. By such a step we may remove one great cause of our own political difficulties. I do not think that this is at all a necessary part of the argument for our uniting together. But it so happena that by our union we hope to remove theae difficultiea, and that is an additional argument for union, although not at all necesaary to induce the adoption of the acheme. I believe that if we had no difficultiea whatever in Canada, if wc were perfectly aatisfied with our political position, union would atill be deairable on the broad ground of the advan tagea we would derive from it. But, in addi tion to those advantages, and the force and strength which union will give us, it will assist us in aurmounting and removing those great difficultiea under which we labor ; and it is a moat happy circumatance that, while we are carrying out a principle ao excellent in itaelf, we are at the same time enabled to remove difficultiea which might prove moat diaastroua to our proapecta. And, in addition to theae reaaons, we have evidently the wiahea of the Mother Country for tbe succesa of thia scheme. (Hear, hear.) No one can with reason ques tion the reception whicii the acheme haa met with from the preaa and from men of all ahades of political opinion in the Mother Country. It haa met with univeraal approbation there. (Hear, hear.) There haa been no jealouay of it that 1 know of. There haa not pro ceeded from any quarter one word of diaap- probation or of doubt as to the prudence and the wisdom which have dictated our advancea towards union. The good wishes of Great Britain are thoroughly with ua. (Hear, hear.) An additional reason, I may aay neceaaity, for union exists in the hoatility of the United States ao palpably manifeated during the paat few montha. In fact, sir, looking at all our interests — our interesta socially and commercially — our interests of defence — our internal harmony — our very existence as an independent people — all bid us go forward in the direction of union. I shall allude but briefly to the poli tical difficulties of Canada, as this part of the subject has been most ably handled by honorable gentlemen who have preceded me. Our difficulties, I had fancied, were palpable to all, and yet we havo heard honorable gen tlemen wbo are opposed to the scheme, almost ignoring their existence, or treating them as though they did not weigh in the scale of the arguments on this queation at all. I am aorry my hon. friend from Brome (Mr. Dunkin) ia not here, aa I will have to refer to aome of hia remarks. That honorable gentleman, as well as others, intimated to the House that our difficultiea had diaappeared ; that aince 1862 Upper Canadahad been aatiafied with her poaition ; tbat agitation bad been laid aaide ; that there was no more mention of any sense of injustice on the part of Upper Canada. Thia line of remark only shewa me how ignorant those honorable gentlemen were ofthe subject on which they were speaking ; how entirely they had remained in the dark aa to the feelings which existed in the minds of the people of Upper Canada ; manifesting a degree of ignorance on one very important feature of our position, that rendered them to a great degree incompetent to deal with this question. From much that I have heard relative to the cause of the dissatisfaction known to prevaU in Upper Canada, I think it well not to be alto gether silent about it. We must look deeper than tbe displeasure felt and manifested at the passing of certain measures obnoxious to the majority of that section, or at the unjust principle of an equal distribution of the public revenues between tbe two sections. It ia true that these tended to draw attention to, and make more prominent the real cause of diacontent. It lay deep in the chafing of the minda of men whose national characterittic is impatience of intolerance and injustice. It dwelt in the abiding sense of the unfair poai tion that the terms of the union of 1840 now imposed upon them, and obeying their national instincts, they could never cease to insist upon a representative reform. (Hear, hear.) I suppose there are no people on the earth who feel more strongly or who will resist more determinedly the perpetration and continu ance of any injustice. It was that sense of injustice, weighing heavily on the minds of the people of Upper Canada, that rendered our position one of difficulty and of danger so long as relief was denied them. I have been surprised, therefore, to hear the statement 629 which has been made by some hon. gentlemen in this House, that the feelings of dissatisfac tion which exiated in. UppeV Canada have disappeared. The formation of the Mac donald-Siootte Govemment has been men tioned as a proof that we have become indif ferent to the question of representation by population, which had been so repeatedly and so strongly urged, and that the people of Upper Canada were quite willing, for the sake of some small material advantages, to cast aside that for whioh they had been agitating for so many years. In opposition to this, I muat state that there waa the atrongeat dia- approbation felt and expressed throughout Upper Canada at the formation of that Gov ernment. The only excuae made for it was, that it was simply a provisional government, and that its formation was nothing more than a temporary measure. I would not hesitate or fear to appeal to any conatituency in Upper Canada, whero the queation of representation by population had been agitated, and ask them to aay whether they did not cheriah the strongest feelings of disapprobation that that question sbould have been ignored at the time of the formation of that Government. Mr. M. C. CABIERON — North Ontario elected a member of that Government. Hon. Mr. HOLTON— They were aU elect ed. Mr. M. C. CAMERON— But in North Ontario a member of the Government came who had not been the member for that con stituency before, and defeated one who was in favor of representation by population. Col. HAULTAIN— In alluding to this matter, I would wish to guard myself against rouaing anything like party queationa or party feelings. (Hear, hear.) I desire, in dealing with the important subject now under debate, to remember that the question before us now ia not who waa right or who was wrong in 1862 or 1863. The question is, are we right in advancing towards union, or are we making a great miatake ; but where it ia neceasary for me to allude to the courae puraued by either party, it is for the purpose of argument alone, and not in any way to raise the question who was right or who to blame. I stated, sir, that there was the strongest disapprobation — I might more correctly say disappointment — felt in Upper Canada that the question of representation by population should have been laid aside by the Macdonald-Sicotte Government. I felt as strongly as any man could have done the unfortunate posi tion in whicii we were then placed ; but giving it the best consideration I could, and believing that a change of govemment was desirable uuder almost any circumstances, I most unwillingly consented. I believed nothing else could have been done at the time. It was the opinion of most, though not of all, with whom I then acted — we might have been wrong, that is not the question. Believing, therefore, that we could not then secure the success of the measure for which we had been agitating and which we had been seeking, wc thought it necessary to form and acknowledge and support a provisional gov ernment, for I do say that the Government then formed was in my estimation, and in the estimation of Upper Canada generally, a pro visional government — ^nothing more ; a Gov ernment which was simply tolerated, and which could not possibly exiat for any length of time. It waa a govemment formed for a certain purpoae, and Upper Canada aauctioned it only becauae of tbat purpoae, which was regarded at the time as of primary import ance. He knowa little of the mind of Upper Canada who aeea in it any indifference to the queation of parliamentary reform. It was a position that neither party haa anything to boaat of; tbe apparent inconsistency of the one resulted from the felt miagovernment of the other. It is no amall pleasure to be able cordially and conaiatently to act with honora ble gentlemen whom I atrongly oppoaed be fore, and I so acted because I thought it my duty under tbe circumatancea so to do. — (Hear, hear.) Well, sir, how long did thia proviaion al government laat ? Within one year it waa defeated, and before it could ahew itaelf to Upper Canada, there waa an entire reconatruction of the Cabinet — and why ? Be cauae the principal meaaure which Upper Can ada had demanded waa loat aight of. Hon. Mr. BROWN— Hear! hear! Col. HAULTAIN— There can be no atronger evidence of thia fact, than that it waa neceaaary to bring into the Cabinet men who truly repreaented the viewa and wishes of Upper Canada, and men also in Lower Can ada who were thought to be more friendly to Upper Canada demands. Had that govern ment, without reconstruction, gone to Upper Canada, where would they have been? Had they gone lo Upper Canada aa they were, and without admitting other elementa into the Cabinet, they would have met with a very general hoatility. The Premier himaelf was made fully aware of this, and he wisely bowed 630 to the wishes of Upper Canada. There can not, therefore, be a stronger evidence than this of the faot that the question of reform in the representation was not laid aside, neither had it lost one iota of its importance in the minds of the great majority of the western section. The Government that had ventured to lay it aside was virtually swept away, aud another formed who made it an open question. This, sir, lies at the very foundation of our difficulties. It has been the source of our difficulties, and no doubt would have continued to be, had no remedy been provided. I have said before on another occasion, and I repeat it, that the minda of men in Upper Canada were fiUed with foreboding as to the future. Tbey feared that Lower Canada would reaiat their demands ; tbey feared that Lower Can ada would continue to deny to them what appeared to them to be palpably juat and right, and what the end of it all would be they did not know. I confeaa that I shared this feeling in common with others ; and it was a matter of common conversation that thinga could not continue aa they were ; that it Was impossible for Upper Canada, with her superiority in numbers and in wealth, to consent to remain in the united Legislature in the inferior position ahe then occupied. If the attempt had been peraiated in to deny to that section what was so reasonable and just, no man could have foretold the serious difficulties which might have followed. Hon. gentle men from Lower Canada, who have expressed an opinion that thia question had ceaaed to be conaidered aa of importance in the west, manifeat a very great ignorance ofthe char acter, the feelin,^s and the intentiona of the men they had to deal with. My hon, friend from Bromo waa one of thoae who wiahed to make light of our present difiicultiea. He aaid, towards the cloae of his speech, that it only needed a Utile patience, that very little was wanted to make everything quite smooth. But, air, even he was obliged to admit that a slight meaaure of parliamentary reform was neceaaary in order to remove the diffi cultiea by which we were surrounded, and he evidently intimated his willingneaa to concede it. And there have been hinta thrown out by certain Liberal members from Lower Canada that it would not be .such an irapoaaible thing, if we would give up this soheme of union, for Upper Canada to ob tain her right poaition, and what ahe has so juatly claimed. But if thia be their feeling, I aak them why they did not come boldly out before and avow it ? I would ask my hon. friend from Brome — and I regret ex tremely that he is not iu hia place — why did he not, in 1862, speak of concessions to Upper Canada, instead of, by vote and by argument, do his beat to convince ua that we could expect no relief from him and from thoae acting with him, from the same aection. Very different language is now used by Lower Canada members of all shades of opinion, to that we havo been accustomed to hear. Those who now admit the juatice of the demanda of Upper Canada, and yet in time paat have reaiated them, ought to be the laat to oppose thia scheme, which settles the difficulty on a baais accepted by all. The honor-ible member for Bromo and the British membera from Lower Canada, who reaisted the reform aaked for, ought to be foremoat in aupporting the acheme before ua; and I am sorry to find that my hon. friend appears to me to occupy a very inconsistent position. Had he always advocated parliamentary reform, he might with consistency have opposed the proposed union. In some auch poaition, and even in a stronger point of view, do the French Liberal members appear to be. They were the profesaed alliea of the Reform party in Upper Canada, and were, of courae, aware that no reform government could atand that did not deal with the representation queation. Now, it appeara to me, sir, that the Liberal French party have been singularly untrue to their Upper Canada alliea ¦ Hon. Mr. HOLTON (ironically)— Hear ! hear ! Col. HAULTAIN— I repeat, sir, that the Liberal French members have pursued a course that if continued in, could only have terminated as it has done. I speak of what haa come under my own obaervation since 1862. A new Parliament had been convened. The queation of repreaentative reform had attained great prominence. The Reform party had apoken diatinctly on that queation. Had tbeir Lower Canada aUies contemplated a continuance of the alliance, we might auppoae that they would have forborne raiaing unnecessary difficulties. But, air, what was the courae pursued ? It will be remembered that an amendment to the ad dress was moved, asserting that the principle of equal representation was eaaential to the union. This waa a gratuitoua though moat significant expression of the divergence that was inevitable. This was made more palpa- 631 ble still, when, at the formation of the Macdonald-Sicotte Government, the Re form party were obliged to pay, as a price lor their alliance, the surrender of the prin ciple moat prominent in their political creed. An alliance baaed upon auch terms could not possibly last. And what must we think when we hear hon. gentlemen intimating that thia principle might now be conceded ? Had the same principles been then enunciat ed, had a bold, straightforward course been adopted by the Liberal members of Lower Canada, they might now be occupying the po sition of aettling our very serious difiicultiea. I have alluded, sir, to the wiahea of tbe Mother Country relative to the movement upon which we have entered, and I asaert that the feeling there ia one of univeraal approbation. Still, so much has been said relative to the opinions existing in the Mother Country aa to the connectioa with her colonial dependenciea, and eapecially with those in Britiah America, tbat I think it right to remark on this, branch ofthe sub ject rather more fully than I should other wise have done, for I feel the great impor tance of it. I know of nothing that would so much tend to discourage the people of this country as that an impreaaion ahould go abroad that the Mother Country was intend ing to cast ua adrift— to aever the connection. I have no doubt myaelf, air, that did auch an opinion really exiat in the Mother Country, and were it to be carried iuto efi'ect at the present tirae, or within any abort period of time, the only alternative — I fear, the only alternative — would be our annexation to the United States. (Hear, hear.) Therefore, I feel it to be of great iraportance that no doubt ,':hould exist in the minds ofthe people of this oountry relative to the feelinga enter tained towarda ua at homo. My hon. friend the member for Brome dwelt at considerable length on the suljoct. He expreaaed, and I am quite sure he entertaina the atrongeat desire for the perpetuation of thia connec tion ; yet it did seem to me that he dwelt with peculiar satisfactiua upou every word he could extract from speeches and pam phlets, which appeared to him to point to a de,aire to sever thit connection, and I cannot but remember that he was frequently cheered with " Hear, hoars " corresponding with the sentiments he expressed. The remarks made by the hon. member from Brome were, to my mind, moat extraordinary. The deductions he drew from the speeches of certain noble men and gentlemen in the Imperial Parlia- rcent, were so directly opposite to what appeared to me the deaign and tendency of those apeeches, that I cannot account for it in any other way, than by presuming that my hon. friend was not in hia uaual health, and tbat hia mind did not poasess that degree of clearoesa which he generally brings to bear on every aubject he investigates. (Hear, hear.) It seemed to me that he looked at everything relating to this question through a distorted medium. I listened with the greateat pleaaure to the dissection the hon. gentleman made of these resolutions, and to the microscopic analysis to which ho subjected the amalleat part of their proviaiona. It shewed the great acute ness of his observation, as well as the large and extended information of his mind. But I could not help feeling that he was looking at thia aubject through the discoloured lens ofa powerfully microacopic mind. (Laugh ter.) I bave no doubt whatever that this also was the impression made by his speech on other hon. gentlemen. ilia talenta and hia ability I fully recognize, and I have no doubt that every hon. gentleman liatened, equally with myself, with pleaaure to what I may call the excruciating diaaec- tion to which he submitted these important resolutions. (Hear, hear, and laughtei.) But I must at the same time say that the reault of all his analysia, and the aumming up of all hia obaervationa, only proved to me that the ground on which the advocates of this acheme stand ia well nigh immovable and uoaaaailable, and convinced me of the smallness of the objections which have yet been urged againat it. Of course my hon. friend from Brome, considering the tempera ment of his mind, dwelt at length and with much force upon the article which lately appeared in the Edinburgh Review. I must acknowledge that in that article there arc passages of extreme offensiveness, such as I regret to see in any Britiah publication, and which were uncalled for and imprudent. If I thought that the article reflected the views of either of the partiea now divid ing the political world in Great Britain, I should indeed say that our connection with the Mother Country was precarious, aud that it behoved us to aak with pertinacity what really waa the intention of the atateamem and tho people at home with regard to us. Hut, sir, we have happily the most conclu sive evidence that could be afforded, tha. 632 hat article does not represent the views of either of the great parties in the British Parliament. It may be the mind of a few isolated individuala; it may represent what is called the Manchester School ; and I am not surprised at all that they should utter ,aentiments of that character. I believe that the Mancheater School, being in a meaaure republican in their political tendeuciea, would not be aorry to see us joining the great republic to the south, and that it would not be a matter for much sorrow to them to aee us forsaking our allegiance to the British Crown, and joining our fortunes with thoae of our neighbora. It behovea ua to see if there are not some grounds of complaint — if there is not some reason why the Manchester School should wiah to get rid of ua. It baa been well observed that the remarka made upon ua by our enemies are generally more valuable than thoae emanating from our frienda. We cannot very weU afford to despise the opinions of our enemies, and we would do well to conaider, if we deaire to perpetuate the connection with the Mother Country, whether we cannot conaiatently with our intereat and honor conciliate every party in Great Britain. Believing as I do that our in dependence and proaperity depend upon preserving the connection with the Mother Country, I would be wUling to remove every just cause of complaint which may be found to exist. I beUeve, further, that no man ahould take part in the govern ment of theae provincea who ia not alive to the importance of thia queation. And what ia the ground of complaint made by those who hold looaely the connection of the coloniea with the Crown ? The complaint ia that they are taxed with our defence, while we tax the industry of the Mother Country, and go directly in opposition to the policy adopted by that country; and aurely there ia aome force and truth in thia complaint. There is no doubt that, aa we are growing in wealth and numbera, theae men feel it aa an oppression that they should continue to be faxed as heavily in order to provide means for our defence, and especi ally aa, ia_ timea paat, we have done ao little ouraelvea in that direction. Aa from year to year, or decade to decade, we grow in numbers and wealth, we ought to consider, if we value the connection, In what manner we can relieve the Mother Country of the expenses entailed upon her for our defence. I also hold that, in so far as our financial position admits of it, we should seek to adapt and assimilate our financial policy to that of Great Britain. If we would contin ue an integral part of that country, we ought not to have high tariffs intervening as so many barriers to that commercial intercourse which should exiat between the two coun tries, for theae muat be provocative of soreness and diaaatiafaction. I am, however, well aware that there are circumatancea which, at the preaent time, do not admit of such a commercial policy with the Mother Country. I merely say we ought constantly to keep the matter in view, and that thoae who desire to maintain the connection should conaider it their duty to decreaae the tariff aa much aa it can be done with juatice to our own position, and thua remove the great cauae of complaint on the part of the people at home. (Hear, hear.) I have alluded, sir, to the Edinburgh Review and to the extreme offenaivonesa of some of ita paasagea referring to the coloniea. But at the same time, there are aentimenta en unciated in the very same article, which seem to me to contradict the drift of the article itself. As we have heard so muoh of this article, and as it has been made the ground on which to baae the suppoaition that there ia a growing deaire in England to bring to an end her connection with the coloniea, I beg to call the attention of hon. gentlemen to this suggestive paragraph, as I find it in the same article : — The people of England have no desire to auap asunder abruptly the aleiider linka which still unite them with their transatlantic fellow-sub jects, or to ahorteu by a single hour the duration of th.-jir common citizenship. On the contrary, by strenghtenin^ the ties which still remain, they would convert into a dignified alliance au un dignified, because unreal, subserviency. This is a remarkable passage to find in auch an article, because, as 1 said before, the whole dritt of the article seema to imply a deaire on the part of the writer to aee the connection severed ; and yet, while express ing this sentiment, he says there ia no deaire to shorten by a aingle hour the dur ation of our common citizenship ! Why, thia article which haa been made so muoh of, which has been dwelt upon ao forcibly, and which haa been sent forth to the country aa indicative of the future policy of England- I say this very article has strong language 633 manifesting a desire for the maintenance of the connection. Hon. j. S. MACDONALD— What does the concluding part of the article say ? Col. HAULTAIN — That a stronger alliance is desired. Hon. j. S. MACDONALD— I mean the concluding part of the article altogether. Col. HAULTAIN— I do not mean to say that there is nothing in the latter part which contradicts the former. But the article points to a position the writer would desire to see us occupy. Hon. j. S. MACDONALD— A position of independence. Col. HAULTAIN— Of alliance, not inde pendence. Hon. j. S. MACDONALD— No ; the latter part of the article expresses the satis faction felt by the writer at the prospect of our becoming independent. Col. HAULTAIN— IhavenottheiBeMPJ/; by me, and it may be as my honorable friend says. But the general drift of tbe article is as I have stated it to be. I do not mean to say that there are not apparently contradic tory sentiments therein expressed — senti ments which are absolutely and altogether contradictory. To resume my argument, it seeras to me that if we evinced a desire to remove the existing cauaes of complaint, even the Manchester School, even such men as Goldwin Smith, would not be unwilling to see the connection between these provinces and the Mother Country continue. My honorable friend the member for Brome, not only alluded to this article in the Edin burgh Review, but he thought there were speeches uttered by certain noblemen and gentlemen in their places in the British Parliament, from which, looking at them through his discolored lens, he could extract sentiments ofa similar character. Thehon. gentleman would admit nothing whatever in favor of this scheme, and seemed determined that England, whether she liked it or not, should cut the connection. He said the Mother Country eulogised the scheme, but — that Lord Granville approved, but — that Lord Derby spoke in favor of the connec tion, but— All the virtue to his mind was in the " huts." Nothing would satisfy him, and nothing would satisfy England whatever was done, and the sooner she got rid of us as a bad bargain, the better she would be pleased. (Laughter.) But what was really the tone of the speeches from which the hon. gentleman quoted ? L*rd Hou«HTon, 81 in seconding the motion for the Address in the House of Lords, on the 7th of February, said, " He hoped and believed that these colonies would still recognize the value of the British connection, and that their amal gamation would render them more safe, without in any way weakening their fealty. (Cheers.)" What language, I ask, could more clearly express the feelings ofthe person speaking than this, and, as the seconder of the Address, the desire also of the party connected with him, that " our fealty to the British Crown should in no manner be weakened." And yet my honorable friend from Brome thought, with that discolored view he took of it, that he detected some uncertainty — some "but." (Laughter.) Lord Derby was even more strong and eraphatic in his language : — If I saw in this Confederation a desire to sepa rate from this country, I should conaider that a matter of so much more doubtful policy; but I aee it with satisfaction — perhaps, however, it ia too soon to diacuaa reaolutiona which have not yet been finally adopted — but I hope I see, in the terms of thia proposed Confederation, an earneat desire to retain the blessings of the connection with this country — an earnest feeling of loyalty, aud a determined and deliberate preference for a monarchical form of government over republican institutions, and a desire to maintain, as long as it cau be maintained peaceably — and no human heing can wiah to aee it maintained longer — the amicable connection which at present exists be tween this country and the colonies. (Cheers.) I notice that on both occasions when Lord Derby and Lord Houghton expressed these sentiments of attachment to the colonies, cheers were given in the House of Lords ; and yet the hon, member for Brome, laboring under some extraordinary mental hallucina tion — (laughter) — thought he could detect evidences of a desire to abandon us to our fate — a willingness on the part of the two great parties represented in the House of Lords by Earl Granville and Earl Derby, that this connection should ceaae ! Wheu we conaider the position Lord Derby occupies; when we consider that he spoke from his seat in Parliament — and we aU know the significance attached to the utterances of even the men of least note, when they speak from their places in the Legislature, how their words will be noted down and becorae a matter of record to be referred to five or ten years hence perhaps, as I dare say haa moro than once been found to be the case with regard to honorable gentlemen 634 occupying seats on the floor of this House — when Lord Derby, I say, the leader of the greatest political party in Great Britain — and I do not hesitate to aaaert that it atands to-day the moat numerous party — gives utterance in the strongest terms to hia deaire to aee perpetuated the connection with the Mother Country, I hope we see in that an evidence, that so long as we diacharge the duties properly devolving upon us, England will never fail us in our hour of need. (Cheers.) Lord Granville aaid : — It was gratifying to see the good feeling which existed between- thia country and the North Am erican coloniea, which, while they strove to carry out their own wiahea, desired to continue the connection with England. Why, sir, if my hon. friend from Brome (Mr. Dunkin) was right. Earl Gran ville, ao far from aaying that he desired to see thia connection perpetuated, ahould have expresaed hia regret that we were deairing to maintain thia connection. Notwithatand ing the atrength of the language I have quoted, my hon friend from Brome waa determined to aee in it aome desire in the minda of theae noble lorda that the connec tion ahould cease — some desire on the part of the people of Englan tbat they should no longer hold, aa appendagea of the Britiah Grown, th^se valuable Provinces of Britiah America, He said even, with reference to the language of Lord Derby, that his lord ship " hoped" and " truated" that ao and so would be the case — and that tbe very faot of Lord Debby's expressing a hope that we were not going to sever the connection, waa in hia mind tantamount to aaying that a separation was inevitable. (Laughter.) What would happen, air, if my hon. friend were to carry out theae extraordinary viewa in the common intercourae of life ? It atruck me, while he was speaking, that in his state of mind, there might be danger in the inter change of the casual civilities of social intercourse. He ia unfortunately laboring under a aevere cold. Suppo.'ie I were to meet him to-morrow morning, and in the exercise of that friendly regard that I cordially feel for my hon. friend, I were to express a hope that his malady was decreasing. If he were to interpret my " hope" in the same strange manner in which he haa taken tbe " hope" of Lord Dehby and others, he would very likely tell me ihat he was not so near his dissolution as I imagined, and that he had no intention yet of ordering his grave to be dug. For it must be evident, that acting under the mental delusion that has charac terized his remarks on this subject, he would interpret my " hope" that he was better, to a persuasion on my part tbat he had but a precarious tenure of his life, (Hear, hear, and laughter.) And to illustrate farther- how incapable his mind had become of deal ing impartially and correctly with the im portant subject before ua, I would caU the attention of the Houae to the fact that when Lord Derby expreaaed " a hope," be was not apeaking at all of the feeling in England, but he waa speaking of the feeling in this country. He said he hoped we should continue the connection. But when he spoke of the feeling in the old country, he did not even use the word " hope," but spoke poaitively and with aaau rance, aaying : " I am aure " that the aid of Great Britain will never fail them when they require it. (Hear, hear.) We have had hia remarka quoted to ua before, but I make no apology at all for extending the diacuaaion upon it, for I feel strongly how important it ia that thia country ahould underatand what the feeling in England ia with regard to ua. We have alao had quoted to us the worda uaed in Her Majeaty'a Speech, at the time that Columbia was formed into a British province. I will read it again : — Her Majesty hopes that this new colony on the Pacific may be but one step in the career of steady progress by which Her Majesty's dominions in North America may ultimately be peopled in an unbroken chain from the Atlantic to the Paci fic, by a loyal and induatrioua population of suh jects of the British Crown. (Hear, hear.) Theae utterances from high official quarters, which are generally very reticent, are remarkable for their force, and for the unmistakable language in which they are coUched, But, if there was any doubt as to tbe feeling which existed among the leading men of the political parties of the Empire, ought not that doubt to be removed by the visit of Hia Royal Highneas the Prince op Wales to thia country? Was that a mere sham, an ake-believe, on the part of England aud the Engliah Government, that Her Majeaty deaired to retain, and Her Govern ment aud the people of England desired to retain, the allegianc3 and the homage of Her people in the west ? I do not believe it for a single instant. I have had recalled to my mind the language used by the Prince op Wales, which I remember struck me very forcibly 635 at the time. It occurred in his address to the Canadian regiment in the year 1858, or the beginning of 1859. After its arrival iu Eng land, colors were presented to that regiment by H.R. Highness. It was his first public act, after he had been appointed to a commission in the British army. I will read the words which fell from the lips of His Royal High ness on that occasion, and which made a most gratifying impression on my mind, having spent, as a British officer, previous to that time, many years of my life in these pro vinces. His Royal Highness, in presenting the colors to the regiment, used these words : — The ceremonial on which we are now engaged possesses a peculiar aignificance and solemnity, because in confiding to you for the firat time this emblem of military fidelity aud valor, I not only recognize emphatically your enrollment into our national force, but celebrate an act which pro claims and strengthens the unity of the various parta of this vast empire under the sway of our common Sovereign. While on thia subject, I may refer to one or two of the answers which His Royal High ness made to the various addresses presented to him in passing through this country. One ofthe most gratifying to my own mind, and to the mind of every man who desires to see our connection with the Mother Couutry per petuated, is his answer to the Address from the Legislative Council, in which he said — " Most heartUy do I respond to your desire that the ties which bind together the Sovereign and the Canadian people may be strong and en during." (Hear, hear.) But it is not neces aary for me to quote further from the answers made by His Royal Highness. The whole aspect of his viait to thia country — the utter ances of the leadera of the two great partiea in the Britiah Empire — the well-known wishes of our Sovereign and of the Heir- Apparent to the Throne — aU these intimate, so far as acts and language can intimate anything ,that there is stiU an unanimous desire on the part of the British people for the continuance of the connection of these provinces with the British Empire. And I beUeve it rests with us — altogether rests with us — whether that connection shaU be perpetuated. (Hear, hear.) I have no doubt that thia prevailing desire for the perpetuation of the connection is one main ground of the satisfaction with which the people of England view our move ment towards union. They are well aware — not looking at it from the view of our sec tional jealousies and party conflicts, but look ing at it from a broader point of view — that our union must tend to the consolidation of our power and our strength, and to the de velopment of our reaourcea. I see no abso lute necessity why, as we grow in strength, we should think, for many long years to come, of severing the connection; but as we in crease in wealth and in numbers, we ought gradually, in the time of peace, to relieve the Mother Country of the expense to which we now put her for our defence. (Hear, hear.) Another reason why we should earnestly de sire a union of the Britiah provinces, in order to develops our nationality, in order that we ahould loecome better acquainted, in order that new channels of commerce should be opened up, ia because of the hostility of the United States, evidently manifested to this country during the past few months. What has been the policy of the United States towards Canada during that time ? We have seen adopted the paaaport ayatem — a remnant of deapotiam which even the de spotic governments of the old world have abolished. We have seen that democratic people embarraasing and reatricting the inter courae between ua; they have given notice of the terraination of the convention limiting the lake naval force ; they have, I believe, given notice of the abrogation of the Reci procity treaty ; we have aeen the committee of ways and means reporting a bill for put ting the frontier defences in order, and re commending the expenditure of upwards of a million of dollara on thoae defences. They have given notice, or propose to give notice, of the abrogation of the Extradition treaty. They have proposed the conatruction of a ship canal around the Niagara FaUa for gunboats and veaaela of war. Thia ia the policy of the United States towarda Canada. (Hear, hear.) And it makea us consider what steps tbey will take next. It must make every man consider the position of this country, should she be cut off from a commu- nication with the ocean through the United States by the bonding syatem being suddenly terminated. It makes ua feel the humUiating poaition we occupy, that our very national exiatence at tbe preaent time ia in a great measure dependent — most humiliatingly de pendent — upon a foreign and an unfriendly power. (Hear, hear.) The people of the United States have recently manifested no good-will towarda ua, and the atepa that have been taken to exhibit their ill-will are perhaps only a foretaate of what we may expect before long. But whether they take extreme meas ures or not at the present time, does our 636 present position offer any guarantee for inde pendence, or for the continuance of our con nection with England ? Rather, do not the condition of this continent and the earnest advice of British statesmen call aloud upon us to be prepared, unless we intend to form part and parcel of the great republic? I can readily understand how men with annexation tendencies, and who are inclined towards republican institutiona, would rejoice at our preaent position. I can underatand how men who wiah to aee the whole continent converted into one great republic, are»plea8ed at difficul tiea being created between the Empire and the provincea. But thoae who entertain different views see plainly that sorae steps must be taken, that we must go to work earnestly to build up a nationality independent of the United States, though not in hostility to it, to counteract the tendency so evident on every hand to drive us into their arms. We know very well what must be the result of the steps which they are now taking — unless we ourselves take measures in another direction — unless we find another outlet to the ocean — unless we find some other channels for our trade and commerce, they know tbat we must inevitably fall into tbeir arms. That is another reason why I wish to see no delay in the union and in the amalgamation of the British provinces, in order that we may at once consolidate our selves into one people, and at once endeavor to abolish those barriers which now exist between us, and develope the feeling that we have com mon interests, and that we are dependent the one upon the otber, which can never be the case so long as division walls exiat. It aeema really astonishing to my mind that any man who really desires to see built up on this con tinent a nationality independent of the Uuited States, should offer any oppoaition to the pro poaal now before ua. (Hear, bear.) So much haa been aaid with regard to our financial and commercial poaition and proa pecta, that I think it ia quite unneceaaary for me to aay anything further on the aubject. I am quite aure that I could not place the matter before you aa well aa it haa been aubmitted by thoae who have preceded me. But it ia natural that each apeaker should dwell upon that which moat impressea his own mind. I am perauaded that in every point of view — in view of our dependence upon, and precarioua relationa with the United Statea ; in view of a deaired union with the Britiah provincea ; in view of our connection with the Empire — we should be culpably lacking in our duty, did we any longer delay to seek and to create new channels for our trade and com meroe. It is well known that at the present time our productions are actually passing through the hands of the New York mer chants before they reach the Maritime Pro vinces. These merchants are deriving all the benefits of that trade, which, with all our dis advantages, does exist to a considerable ex tent, and is evidently capable of an enormous extension. It is only necessary to refer to the position and characteristics of the different provinces, to see at once how exactly they supply the wants and deficiencies of each other. Suffice it to say that we are agricul tural and manufacturing, whilst they are, and must remain, principally a maritime popula tion, requiring for consumption that with which we can aupply them. I know it ia said tbat these channels of commercial intercourse may be opened up without union. But we need to feel ourselves to be one people, with identical interesta, dependent upon each other ; and what can do thia aa well as a political union, bringing ua together into one legisla^ ture and under one government ? Perhaps it ia not too much to say that our commercial interests would be furthered more in ten years under a political union, than it would be in thirty yeara without it. (Hear, hear.) In connection with thia aubject, I am naturally reminded of the Intercolonial Railway. Now, air, it appears to me, although the Interco lonial Railway has been dragged into this ques tion — although the expense of that undertak ing has been dwelt upon by the opponents of this scheme as if it were part of the scheme and of this scheme alone — I believe that whatever the event, whether there be a Confederation of the provinces or not, the Intercolonial Rail way is an indispensable necessity. The ex pense of that railway is, therefore, a question altogether apart from this scheme, and can not be allowed to enter into the arguments pro or fon. I do not look upon the Inter colonial Railway, at the present time, in the light of a profitable commercial undertaking, neither, to any great extent, as a valuable military undertaking. (Opposition cries of "Hear,bear.") There is not the least doubt that when we are not actually engaged in hostil ities, it would be of the greatest advantage in furnishing us with an outlet at aU seasons of the year. Before actual hostUities, as in the Trent affair, we need it to secure our inde pendence of the United States in bringing rapidly troops and munitiona of war into the provinces. When actually at war, we are aware that raUways are easily destroyed, and 637 rendered of little use, unless we have the mean's of protecting them. But as a great social and political engine, it seems to mc ab solutely neceaaary, if ever we are to have a union ; and if a union does not como to-day, but is looked forward to ten years hence, I still hold that we ought at the preaent time, and without unneceasary delay, to commence ita construction. Union, sir, is desirable, because undoubtedly it will add to our means of defence. It is true we shall not have any territory added to us which wiU increase our strength ; neither shaU we add to the number of battahons in the provinces generally. But it does not, I apprehend, require a military man, or a man with military experience or military education, to be aware that there ia no combination which so much needs one head and one guiding mind as the management of military organizations, and the guidance of mUitary operations. What, I ask, would be our position in the event of war, should there be no union ? We have at present five dis tinct provinces, with as many independent governments. The people are but little known the one to the other, and consequently have but the slightest possible interest in each other. In the event of war, circumstances might frequently occur where concerted action on the part of two or more of the provinces might be required. Immediate cooperation might be essential to the success of the pro posed project. Should we not have the most serious difficultiea thrown in the way of the undertaking, simply from the fact that so many independent governments must be con sulted, each jealous of its own i ights, and con cemed only about its own safety. (Hear, hear.) Such a state of things demands a change, were there no other argument in favor of it. If we are to remain independent of the United States, we must unite, in the most effective manner possible, our available means of defence. We must become ac quainted with one another, and do all we can to call into existence a feeling of oneness, and of interest not only in one section or province, but in British America generaUy. Canadians should cease to think that they are interested alone in the defence of Canada, and Nova Scotians must learn to look beyond the limits of Nova Scotia. If we are to offer anything like a united resistance, we must have a com mon interest in the whole country. And how can we so surely effect this, how effect it at all, without union ? But let us carry out the scheme that is proposed- for our adop tion, and in course of time we shall all learn to feel interested in the in tegrity of every part of the Confederation. If we are united we shall find the people of tbe Maritime Provinces admirably suited for the work required to be done on the lakes — the key to the defence of Upper Canada. If, therefore, we can be united as one people, if we are brought under one head and one mind, we shall have Nova Scotians assisting in our defence, and very likely we shall assist in the defence of Nova Scotia. (Hear, hear.) I cannot too strongly impress on the minds of those who hear me the strong convictions of my own mind with reference to the impor tance of immediate and thorough union. Our own interests demand it, the interests of the Empire require it, that we may be able to hold our own against the strong and energetic power to the south of us. For these import ant objects we must learn to throw aside all our sectional disputes, and to place ourselves in the hands of men who would have to guide us when the time of difficulty may arrive. No one more earnestly .desires the continuance of tbe blessings of peace ; but should the reverse come, we must all learn to obey orders with zeal and promptitude, to stand in readiness for ser-vice in any part of British America where our presence may be required. This can never be done so long as Nova Scotia is building up a nationality for herself, and New Brunswick, Newfoundland and Prince Ed ward Island are each remaining in a state of isolation, and Upper and Lower Canada are far removed in sentiment and feeling from either. So long as this is the case, we are diffusing our strength and are weakening our selves. From no point of view can union be more strongly urged as a necessity than in the case of our defence. The defence of Can ada, although we have such an extended fron tier, is not so difficult as might at first sight appear. There a few prominent points which must be defended, and which we must make up our minds to hold. It is true we have an extensive frontier, but _ the frontier of the United States is not the less so. It ia true alao that we have many towns on the frontier, but they are not to be compared to the wealth and importance of those of the United States, and therefore we are not placed at so great a disadvantage in that respect. There are cer tain points which are the key or the gates to Canada, and wbich, if properly defended, we may reasonably hope to hold the country, without fear of any number that may be brought against us, and it is of the first im portance that the people of Cauada should 638 awake to the necessity of having these posts defended. If we are to remain independent, if we really desire a nationality apart from tbat of the United Statea, it is necessary that we should think of these things, and look them fully in the face — to consider it well, and to see the absolute necessity of coming to some arrangement with the Imperial Government as to tbe proportion we are mutu.-dly to bear. If we are really in earnest in our professed desire to maintain our independence, I be lieve we sball be willing to tax ourselves and submit to the necessary sacrificea. The very fact that there ia an uncertainty exiating in the minda of many whether Canada will con sent to be taxed for her defence, is one of the strongest grounda, to my mind, why we should lose no time in completing the union of the British American Provincea. I feel that so long aa Canada ia separated from tbe reat of Britiah America, so long will she be without any feeling of nationality. She can not exist here alone. We need to feel that there is a nationality on this continent to which we are attached ; and I know of noth ing more likely to extend our ideas and views, so as to embrace the whole of British Ameri ca, than the present project. We are likely to view a country such as the Confederation would include, as something worth struggling for and defending. All other countries of tbe world are satisfied to tax themselves for their defence, and we find countriea not so numerous in population, and with revenuea and commerce inferior to ouraelvea, maintain ing comparatively large atanding armiea. And yet when we talk of our defencea — when we speak of the taxation which will be neceasary in order to erect and defend theae worka and to inatruct the militia, we hear doubts ex preaaed, uncertainties floating about, whether Canada will really consent to bear her share of it. It shows to me that there is among some a want of a deep-seated feeling of nationality, and that that necessary senti ment has yet to be caUed out and developed. Where this does exist the people do not heai tate to make any aacrifice neceaaary for the maintenance of their independence. Other countries have manifested their attachment to their nationality and their flag by the sacrifice of almost everything they posaeaaed. Sometimes, however, it is urged that wben the time arrives Canada will show to the world that she is willing to spend her last drop of blood in defence of the soil. This i^a very proper sentiment, and sounds exceedingly well, but I cannot help thinking that if those who give expression to it wish to shew that it can stand the test of trial, they would now urge the expenditure neceaaary to give effect to it. They would then be doing some real practical good, and not be so liable to be regarded as mere sentimentalists. The question ia an eminently practical one, and the aentiment that haa no practical issue may be regarded' as spurious and useless. We may be sure of thia, that if we are not willing to spend the money that is necessary for our defence, when tbe time comes there will be a great unwillingness to apend the blood. (Hear, bear.) We ought to conaider that it ia not sufficient that we should be willing to spend our lives, for these alone cannot defend us. If we make no prepar ation, what will the deatruction of life avail us ? It is unreasonable and foolish to say that we will leave everything undone — the training ofour men, and the strengthening of our positions — until the very time when our only chance must depend upon our having trained men and fortified positions ready to our hand. It would be as reasonable for a man to say, "I will learn to swim when I am drowning." Every reasonable man expoaed to dro.vning would certainly take every meana to learn to awim beforehand, ao that when expoaed to the danger he would be able to extricate hima.'lf. It aeema to me quite aa reaaonable for ua to say that when the time comes we will spend our lives in defence of the country, and neglect all precautionary measures beforehand. I have no sympathy with such a sentiment, and very little confidence in it. I should like rather to see a little practical sense manifeated ill a queation of such vital importance. I have read with attention the report of Col. Jervois, who waa sent out by the Imperial Government, and, I preaume, most other hon. members of this Houae have also seen it. That officer points out certain places which must be defended, and he closes his report with this remark : " That unless these works are constructed, it is worse than useless to continue any British force in Canada." Mr. PERRAULT— Hear ! hear ! Col. HAULTAIN— The hon. gentleman says " Hear ! hear !" Of course, sir, I can not pronounce abaolutely what may be pass ing in his mind, but I have noticed this — the hon. gentleman will know whether it justly applies to himaelf or no — that when the expensea of our defence were mentioned by my hon. friend the member from Nortb 639 Ontario (Mr. M. C. Cameron), in a manner deprecating the expenditure, there was a very significant " Hear ! hear I" intimating a hearty concurrence in such sentiments. But, sir, when my hon. friend in his usual forcible manner, expressed his willingness, when the time arrived, to spend the last drop of his blood in the defence of this land, we heard no more of the responding and concurring " Hear ! hear !" I alluded to. (Laughter.) My hon. friend, if I under stood him rightly, deprecated the idea that any expense should be entailed upon us for defensive works. But, sir, he spoke like a true Briton, and I am quite sure that he was in earnest, and did not utter a raere barren sentiment, when he said that he would spend his last drop of blood in the defence of his country. And I am sure he would do ao. But I would put it to my hon. friend if it ia more reaaonable that he ahould spend this blood, or spend a few pound a ? Who can tell the thouaanda, ay, the hund reds of thouaanda of human livea that may be apared by the judioioua and timely ex penditure now ofa few hundreda of thousands of pounds ? I wish to impress upon my hon. friend what is the clear conviction of my own mind, that in every point of view it ia economy — economy of treasure, and economy of useful livea, to spend some money now to place our country in a state of defence, I think a great change has taken place within the last few years in reference to this subject. The ventilation of the subject has drawn men's minds towards it, aud we are beginning to feel that here we are a people consid erable in numbers and considerable in wealth, and it is incumbent upon us to do more than we have been doing in times paat. I would call attention to a very important work which can scarcely be overestimated. I allude to the Ottawa canal. I regret that the atate of our finances will not permit us to think of its construction at the present time, but I refer to it that we may think of it ; that the representatives of the people raay think of it; that the statesmen of the country may think of it. In order to secure the future defence of the country, and especially the western section of it, and to maintain its independence, the Ottawa canal must be built. The Ottawa canal would be worth 50,000 men to us. With that canal, and the aid.of the Mother Country, which we are assured will never be wanting when we require it, we will be able to maintain and hold our own on the lakes, and thus make our own territory secure, and threaten our opponents at many important points. At the present time we are in a sad condition as regards our canal communication, looked at from a defensible point of view. Our St. Lawrence canals are almost entirely useless. I am glad to see that the American Government have given notice of their intention to terminate the convention for not keeping armed vessels on the lakes. I am glad to see that this is to be put an end to, for it was decidedly preju dicial to our interesta, and I have no doubt we ahall have gunboats on our lakes bei'ore the end of the present year. Had it continued otherwise, we might have been very much at the mercy of the United States. There ia no queation that, ahould they determine upon going to war with ua before the opening of navigation, we might not be able to get a Britiah gun-boat on our waters by the St. Lawrence canals, as they are so eaaily accessible to our opponents, and, without much difficulty, could be rendered uaeleas for navigation. Aa regarda the Rideau canal, how are we to get gun-boats through it ? There ia a certain claaa of gun-boats that might pass through it. Mr. H. MACKENZIE was understood to express doubt on this point. Col. haultain— Yes; the locks of the Rid'eau canal are, I believe, 130 feet long, and would admit a certain class of gun- boata. But, aa my hon. friend aeema to remark, the Rideau canal would, neverthe leaa, be uaeleaa, because tbe only way by which we can reach it ia thro'agh tho Gren ville c-anal, and the looks ot the Grenville canal are only 70 feet long. Therefore, we should be entirely at the mercy of tbe United" States, becau'ie, unless we held Lake Ontario, the Upper Pro vince would be inevitably gi ne. Well, sir, it appeara to me that all our inter esta — commercial, political and defeuaive — and the peculiar circumataaoes in whioh we are placed, urgently call for the union of the Britiah Provinces. The reaaona are of that force and tbe intereata of that magni tude, that it ia aurpriaing to me that any hon. gentleman, who really deair a that theae provinces should be indepenrlent of the United States, should hesitate for a single moment about adopting the soheme, not that it is perfect, but because it is the only one within our reach. (Hear, heah) 640 I have now to make a few remarks on the character of Her Majesty's loyal Opposition. The composition of that Opposition strikes me as somewhat remarkable. It is certainly heterogeneous. The great difference be tween the Opposition and the Government seems to me to be this, that while the Government are anxious to build up, to consolidate, to strengthen, the only object of the Oppoaition, the only object which keepa them together, appears to be to pull down, to weaken, to divide. (Hear, hear.) Many of the remarks which which have fallen from the various members of the Opposition, they might have made with equal force againat each other aa against the Government. To uae a military phraae, they aeem to have been firing at one another, but aa it is only a war of words and arguments, they may still fire away, although logically hors de combat. One says it is necessary we should have a change. Another aays he desires no change, but wiahea us to remain as we are. A third is against Confederation, because he thinks the Federal principle ia one which in all time paat haa been proved to be weak and powerless. Another member of the Oppo sition bases his hopes of the world's future on the principles of Federalism. Another says he will have nothing but a legislative union ; while, I believe, there are not a few of those with whom he acts who would threaten fire and sword if a legislative union were attempted to be carried. We have surely here an extraordinary display of anything but unanimity. As I said before, they present the spectacle of a most heterogeneous company, with power only to destroy. Mr. T. C, WA.LLBRIDGE— What sort ofa spectacle do the Government present in that respect ? Col. HAULTAIN— The members ot the Governmenthaveacommon object. They have come together, not to assail ona another with their opposite principles and views and opin ions, but they have come together to combine — they have come together, like reaaonable men, for the accomplishment of a great com mon object — and they have conaidered how best they can meet one another's views by mutual concession, whicb ia the law that binda aociety together, without whicb aociety would be at an end. They have united in thia way and in thia spirit to strengthen the position of these provincea, and the poaition of the Empire to which they belong. But I do not hear one word of this, with regard to the hon. members forming the Opposition. I do not hear that they have met together, and are prepared to propose to the country some scheme that will be better than the one that is now offered for our adoption. I do not hear a word of anything of the kind, and this I do most seriously complain of I maintain that the importance of this matter ia auch, that it ia their duty not to avail themaelvea of what ia ordinarily called the latitude of parUamentary oppoaition. — The eircumatances of this country are too grave for us to trifle with such a question. If we present to the Houae and to the country something to meet the difficulties of our poaition, then I aay that honorable gentlemen who oppoae that scbeme are wanting in their duty to their country, and are wanting in the appreciation they ought to have of thoae difficultiea, if they do not on their part present something to ua, and aak ua to accept from them wbat they suppose better than is offered to them by ua. I cannot but expreaa my regret at the course they have puraued, (Hear.) I will now allude, air, to an opposition to this acheme, wbich haa been very decidedly expreaaed by a certain aection of the Protestant minority of Lower Canada. I am aware, from personal intercourse with many gen tlemen belonging to that section of the community, that they do feel a very atroDg aversion to this scheme, becauae, aa they aay, it will place them at the mercy of the French-Canadiana. On thia point I desire to assure my honorable frienda from Lower Canada, tbat whilat I conaider that our present circumatancea require ua all to apeak openly and honestly one to the other, it ia and thall be my earnest desire to speak with all kindliness of feeling towards them. I feel compelled to siy that there is no part of this scheme that I feel more doubt about, than the effect it will have upon the educa tion and political interests of the Protestants of Lower Canada. It has been said that there is and always has been a spirit of toleration and generosity on the part ofthe French-Canadians towards their Protestant fellow-countrymen. I have heard it said that they have on every occasion furthered to the utmost of their ability, and in the fairest and most just manner, the educational interests of the JProtestant minority. But on the other hand, gentlemen who have paid a great deal of attention to the subject, have 641 also said that, in time past, although there has not been an open hostility to the educa tion Ol' the Protestant minority, there has been a very decided under-hand obstructive- ness. This is stated by gentlemen who have taken a particular interest in the matter, and who, I am confident, would not make such a statement if they did not think it to be the case. And I muat say, for my own part, that I do think the Proteatant minority have some grounds for this fear. And thia ia my reaaon : the religious faith of the majority ia Lower Canada is, as we know, Roman Catholic, and they receive from the head of the Romish Church their inspiration ; they are guided by the prin ciples that are laid down,. and that are from time to time publicly promulgated by the head of that Church. Now, I do not think that my Roman Catholic fellow-oountrymen can be aurpriaed — and I would aak their attention to what I am saying, I desire to speak honestly, but, of courae, courteoualy — I do not think they can be aurpriaed at theae suspicions and feara of their Proteatant brethren. And why ? Becauae they muat theraaelves be aware what are the principles of the Roman Catholic hierarchy. Hon. Mr. ALLEYN— What are thoy? Col. HAULTAIN— They are not tolerant. (Murmurs of disapprobation from various parts of the House.) Hon. Mr. alleyn — Are Preabyteriana more tolerant ? The hon. gentleman haa stated that the principles of the Roman Catholic hierarchy are not tohrant. Will he explain whether he means that they are not tolerant with regard to civil liberty, or with regard to religioua liberty. We wish to underatand precisely what the honorable gentleman means. Col. haultain— And that ia preciaely my object. I believe that civil and religioua liberty are so bound up that you cannot separate them. Hon. Mr. ALLEYN— You beUevo they are intolerant on both points ? Mr, robitaille- It is not well to discuss such matters here. Col. HAULTAIN— I think I have only to refer to the letter recently issued from Rome, to find a complete and absolute answer to the question which the -hon. member for Quebec has put to me. I see io that letter, which is invested with all the gravity and authority that necessarily aurround a meaaage from the head of the Roman Catholic Church 82 — I see, amongst other things, tbat it is there stated as an error to be condemned, " that emigrants to Catholic countries should have freedom of worship." (Hear, hear.) I do not think there can be any one more anxious than myself to avoid anything like religious discussion in this House, or to avoid rouaing anything like religioua animoaity. But when wo are diacuaaing a scheme of the greatest import ance, involving the interests of various sec tions of the community, I do think it behoves every man to speak honestly. (Hear, hear.) I have said that the Protestant minority in Lower Canada fear leat they should not have full juatice done to them. They know the great power of the Romiah hierarchy in Lower Canada. They know how much everything ia ahaped according to the wishes of that body. They know that that hier archy receivea ita inapiration from Rome, and within the laat few weeka we find what is the character of that inspiration. (Re newed murmurs of disapprobation.) Now I aak my Roman Catholic friends to conaider this candidly. When there comes from the Pope, the head of the Roman Catholic Church, a letter clothed with all the autho rity that we know tho French Canadians attribute to that source, and when we have it declared here that it is au error to say that in some countries called Catho lic, emigrants ifhould enjoy the free exercise of their own worahip — (Hear ! hear !) — I hear aome of my honorable friends say " Hear, hear," in rather a jeering tone. But I aak you to think honestly about it. Suppose it were possible for the Protestants of Canada to apeak in a manner aimilar to that in whioh the head of the Romiah Church has apoken, and that we were to declare it to be a principle that ahould guide ua, that we ought not give to thoae who differed from ua the freedom of religious worahip, would not the Roman Catholica in Upper Canada have good reason to be alarmed ? Now, I ask you to do me the justice, my hon. friends, to think of it in a just light, and not in the light of an attack upon your religion. I ask you to think of it fairly, especially at such a time aa this, when the Proteatants of Lower Canada are called to put themaelvea into the power of the Roman Catholic hierarchy; for I believe it ia aimply tantamount to that. I ask you to think what must be their feolioga when they read, aa emanating from the head and ruler of the Romish hierarchy, such a 642 sentiment as that contained in the passage I have quoted. Hon. Atty. Gen. CARTIER— Will the hon. gentleman allow me to say a word ? The Protestant minority of Lower Canada have always lived in harmony, not only with the Catholics, but with the Catholic clergy of Lower Canada. And I may say also, on behalf of the Protestants of Lower Canada — the majority of them at all events — that they are so convinced that there is true liberality in tho hierarchy, in the Catholic clergy of Lower Canada, as well as in the great majority of the Roman Catholica of Lower Canada, that they have no auch feara as the hon. gentleman entertains. (Hear, hear.) Col, HAULTAIN— Of courae, it muat be perfectly obvious, that in a matter of thia kind, what emanatea from my hon. friend the Hod. Attorney General East will have very little weight, in comparison with what emanates from the head of the Roman Catholic Church. Now, I do not accuse my French-Canadian fellow-aubjecta of anything like intolerance. But what I say is tbis, that there is ground for suspicion on the part of the Protestants of Lower Canada, knowing what is the poaition in whioh they will be placed, with regard to the Roman Catholic hierarchy, when they find emanating from the head, the very in spiration and fount of that hierarchy, the intolerant aentimenta I have alluded to. Why do I mention thia? Ia it with the view of raising any difficulty about the scheme now before ua ? Quite the reverae. I speak in time — I speak to aaaure my co religionists in Lower Canada — to elicit the declaration of tolerant and generous senti ments on the part of Roman Catholic mem bers ; I speak in earnest warning now, that there may be no neceaaity for it hereafter. 1 need scarcely declare what are my own sentiments — tbose of every British Protest ant ; we grant cheerfully to our Roman Catholic fellow-countrymen that which we also demand, the freest liberty of conscience, the freest exercise of every political right. (Hear, hear.) Hon. j. S. MACDONALD— The Hon. Attorney General East rose and apoke for the Proteatanta of Lower Canada. My hon. friend from Peterborough (Col. Haultain) alao apeaka for them. How ahall we decide between the two ? Hon. Mr. MoGEE— The hon. gentleman from Cornwall ia like the blank leaf between the Old and New Testaments, belonging neither to the one nor to the other. (Laugh ter.) Hon. j. S. MACDONALD— I really think this is a very important matter. The hon. meinber for Peterborough speaks for the Protestants of Lower Canada, aud the Hon. Attorney General East also aays he speaks the feelings of the same class. What shall we say between them ? Hon. Atty. Gen. CARTIER— I can say this. I have seen, aa the hon. member is aware, a considerable amount of political life, and during all t! at time I have alwaya atood by the cause, when it was attacked, of the Catholic hierarchy of Lower Canada ; but at the same time I have alwaya atood up on behalf of tbe rights of the Proteatant minor ity, and it haa been my lot alwaya to have tbe confidence of that body. Hon. j. S. MACDONALD— Not as a body. Hon. Mr. ALLEYN — ^I propose that this part of the diaeuasion be postponed till Sunday. (Laughter.) Hon. j. S. MACDONALD- And sing the doxology before we begin. Col. HAULTAIN— I think, air, this is a matter too serious to be made tho occaaion of unmeaning jokea. I speak what I know when I say there ia a feeling of diatruat on tbe part of a great many of the Proteatanta of Lower Canada. And I speak what I know, when I say that what I have quoted as emanating from the head of the Roman Catholic Church, has tended to increase that distrust. It muat be evident, that if we aro in the future fo progreaa amicably and well, it ia better we ahould apeak honestly beforo we enter into tbia compact, and that we ahould all atrivc to guard against any systetu being carried out, or any courae puraued, that would tend to create difficultiea in the future. What do my hon. friends from Lower Canada aay -n'ith regard to what I have quoted? One hon. gentleman riaea with a jeer about deferring tbia diacussion till Sunday. (Hear, hear.) I should like to know what the hon. gentleman thinks of the paaaage I have read. Docs he agree with it ? Hon. Mr. ALLEYN — Upon my word, I have not read the whole letter. Col. HAULTIN— Does he agree with the portion I have read ? Hon. Mr. ALLEYN— I am in favor of liberty of conscience to the fullest extent. Col. HAULTAIN— I think, io juatice to themselves, hon. gentlemen of the Roman 643 Catholic faith should make themselves ac quainted with what has emanated from Rome. I feel there is ground for the remarks I have made, and that I would have been failing in my duty to the Protestants of Lower Canada, had I not made them — had I not stated on their behalf tbe grounds of their fears for the future. I hope hon. gentlemen will make themselves acquainted with what I have alluded to. I do not know whether the long list of errors was read out in the Roman Catholic churches, but I do know that the Encyclical letter which accompanied it was communicated to those who attend church. I do not know whether my hon. friend is in the habit of going to church. Hon. Mr. ALLEYN— Oh ! yes. Hon. j. S. MACDONALD— I would like to know how my hon. friend from Peterbo rough will satisfy those for whom he speaks, if he votea for this Confederation scheme. Col. HAULTAIN — I have sufficient con fidence that my honorable friend the Attor ney General East would oppose anything like an oppression of the Protestant popula tion of Lower Canada. I am quite satisfied he will faithfully carry out the assurances he has given from hia aeat in Parliament with reference to the amendments to the Education Act of Lower Canada. Hon. Atty. Gen. CARTIER— And I may say that my fulfilment ofthose pledgea will be eaaily performed, because it has never enter ed the rainds of the Catholic clergy in Lower Canada, or of the majority of the Catholics of Lower Canada, to oppreaa their fellow- subjects the Protestants. (Hear, hear.) Mr. j. dufresne— What happened before fhe union should be proof of that. Col. HAULTAIN— Well, after all that has been said to me, I ask honorable gentle men of the Roman Catholic persuasion to look at what the head of their Church has written and published to the world, and then to say either the one thing or the other — either that they have no confidence in what the head of their Church says, or that they have confidence in it, and will act accord ingly. Hon. Mr. McGEE — I hope the honorable gentleman will be found willing to extend to the Roman Catholic minority of Upper Canada the same privileges which we are ready to extend to the Protestant minority of Lower Canada. Hon. j. S. MACDONALD— The hon orable member for Peterborough admits that the intentions of the Hon. Attorney General East are sincere, and says he relies on them. But, on the other hand, he reads to this House an edict which supersedes any prom ises which the Hon. Attorney General can make. That is tho difficulty in whicii the honorable gentleman is placed. Hon. Atty. Gen. CARTIER— I recom mend the honorable member for Cornwall to read the Encyclical letter. Hon. j. S. MACDONALD— I have read every word of it. Mr. BELLEROSE— Then you didn't understand it. Hon. J.S. MACDONALD— AU I wished to say was, that I think the honorable mem ber for Peterborough has put the case very fairly. Col. haultain— Whether I put it fairly or not, or whether honorable gentle men approve of what I have said or not, matters not in the least to me. I have simply discharged what I conceived a duty to my fellow-religionists in Lower Canada. I bring to the knowledge of houorable gentle men of the Roman Catholic persuasion what many of them seem to have been ignorant of. And it is all nonsense to endeavor to ignore the fact that I have brought before them. We know that in some Roman Catholio coun tries absolute intolerance prevails. In Spain, for instance, not a Proteatant church is al lowed to be erected throughout the whole length and breadth of that country. It is of no uae, therefore, for honorable gentlemen to jeer at what I aay ; and when an edict of in tolerance is again promulgated and sent out to the world, emanating from the very head of the Romiah Church, is it surprising, when the Protestants of Lower Canada are in a small minority, and know that they will be at the mercy of the hierarchy entertaining those viewa, that they ahould feel some reluctance to be left in that position. I know this very well, that the generality of Roman Catholics in this country would avow, as they have done, their opposition to the sentiment I have quoted. I call upon them practically to dis avow it, and I have confidence that they will do so. Whether they like the dilemma in which they are placed, or not, ia another mat ter. (Hear, hear.) Composed, as our society is, of those different elements, when we have to discuss matters similar to that before us, when we have to adopt a scheme involving the interests of minoritiea and aections, it is right that we should do so frankly and hon estly one to the other, and face to face. I have spoken with every desire to avoid being 644 offensive, uncourteous and unkind, and I have done it, 1 trust, 'in a manner befitting the oc casion and my own character. Mr. Dl'^NIS — Will the honorable member allow me to put to him a question ? Since the honorable member has referred to this letter from the head of the Church, does he enter tain the opinion that any honorable member has a right to come here and criticise in a similar way the mode of procedure of Protest ant clergymen ? If so, bow are we to get along at all ? The honorable member may have hia own opinions in regard fo thia letter, but he ought not to state them on the floor of the Ilouse, for if he does so any other honor able member bas the right to come here and critiae the conduct of reapectable clergymen of tho Free Church, of the Epiacopal Church, or of any other Proteatant Church, and make such commenta aa he thinka fit. Thia ought not to be. Then, the honorable member aaid the letter ought to be looked upon with sus picion. Well, all I can say ia, that if we go into a chapter on auspicious, every man ought to be suapioioua. We might bring auapiciona to bear upon everything, however reapectable it may be, and in this way it would be impoa sible with frankness to deal with anything. My hon. friend uses the word "hierarchy." Well, a word even does damage sometimes. My honorable friend may have his opinion upon these things, and that opinion ought to be respected, because I believe it to be an honeat opinion ; but if he baa a right to speak of " Romish" and all that sort of thing in connection with our Church, we will have a right to speak in a disrespectful manner of ministers of the Free Church, of the High Church, of the Low Church, and of aU the other kinds of churchea, and bad feeUng will be created to no purpose. Col. HAULTAIN— Mr. Speaker, when ever any one who has the right or authority to speak for Protestants enunciates such a doctrine as that which has emanated from the Pope of Rome, I am quite wiUing it should be thrown in my teeth on the floor of this House. I will toll my honorable friend who haa just addressed me, what he ought to have been aware of, that there is no analogy whatever — no similarity whatever — ^between the Pope of the Church of Rome and any minister of any other body of Christiana. I would diamias thia aubject, air, by simply atating that I have used terma ordinarily employed, and have been anxioua to do so in no offensive manner. Some of the reasons given for the opposition which has been offered to the soheme now before the House are, that it is not perfect, and that it embraces principles which would endanger the working of the projected Con stitution. Now, of course, sir, the scheme in one sense is not perfect. Hon. Mr. HOLTON— Hear, hear. Col. HAULTAIN— Any Constitution drawn up to meet fhe circumstances under which the five, I may say the six, provinces were situated must necessarily present appa rent inconsistencies. Coneessiona and mutual compromise must inevitably be consented to if we are to have union at all. It does not manifest auy extraordinary degree of acute ness in order to be able to discover the possi ble difficulties that may arise from it. Hon orable gentlemen who have spoken against it have magnified the dangera of collision, and especially has the honorable member for Brome clone so. I am of opinion, air, that if the aamo rigid and hoatile analyaia were made of any form of government, or of any conati tution, monarchical or republican, originated for uniting aeparate and diatinot peoples to gether, it would not be difficult to foresee dangers of collision aa likely to flow therefrom. Were the Britiah Conatitution itself subjected to the same kind of dissection, flaws and com promiaea might be detected, and poaaible dan gers be foretold. In the Constitution pro poaed for our adoption, aa with all others, the successful working of it must mainly depend upon the charactera and principlea of the men who have to work it. The honorable member for Brome certainly attempted to make the worst of these reaolutions, and endeavored to point out, in almost every feature, defects which he thought might endanger the interests of tbe people. He dwelt particularly upon the apparent facilitiea for the development of what is called in this country ''log-rolling." He aaid we might find the Maritime Provincea working with each other, and with Lower Canada againat Upper Canada, and vice versa. Well, it must be obvious, sir, that the honor able gentleman's objections in this respect applied with as much force to a Legislative union as to a Federal union, and yet my hon orable friend is himself in favor of a legisla tive union. Hon. Mr. HOLTON— I must set my hon. friend right. My honorable friend from Brome — who is now absent — said he waa op posed to any other union than that at present existing b3tween the provinces ; and his whole argument went to show that he was opposed to any other tie than that now existing. Hon. Mr. MoGEE— If the honorable 645 gentleman will permit me, I may say that I followed the honorable member for Brome very closely, and that according to my under standing he expressed himself in favor of Fed- oration, but without a union such as that now proposed. His argument was that we should federate with the Imperial Government, and that there should be a Council in London. Hon. Mr. HOLTON— That was another point. Hon. Mr. McGEE — No, it was this point : His proposal was — and he is the only member on the other side who has ventured to put forth a counter-proposition to that now before the House — that we should have a Council simUar to that for the East Indies. I intend to reply to tbis proposition when the proper time comes. But my honorable friend from Peterborough is quite right in what he has stated. Col. HAULTAIN — I am of opinion that the honorable member for Brome, if he did not desire it at the present time, at any rate expressed himself in favor of union at some future time. Hon. Mr. HOLTON — A legislative union, if a union at aU. But ho really did not want any other than that now existing. Col. HAULTAIN— That is precisely what I said, and I maintain that the very same arguments which I have alluded to as uaed against a Federal union, might likewiae be urged against a Legialative union — that there would be the aame amount of " log rolling " in tbe latter aa in the former. Hon. Mr. BROWN— And a great deal more. Col. HAULTAIN— Certainly as much. I think my honorable friend from North Ontario (Mr. BI. C. Cameron) used the same argument', and yet I believe he is in favor of a legislative union. Mr. M. C. CAMERON— 1 am. Col. HAULTAIN— But my honorable friend muat see that this argument againat the Federal union might be urged with equal cogency against any union at all. Mr. M. C. CAMERON— I may, perhaps, be allowed to say tbat my position is just this, that a legislative union would bo preferable, because the people would enter into it with the design of working for the harmony and advantage of the people ; whereas, if a Fed eral union were entered into, the local interesta of each province would predominate over the interests of the whole. Col. HAULTAIN— I think in this point of view the argument is rather in favor of the Federal principle, which does remove some of the causes of the difficulty, in so far as local matters are removed from the juris diction of tho General Government, and are left to that of the local governments. But looking at it in every point of view ; consider ing the greater expense, the danger of colli sion between the govemments, and the compa rative diviaion of sovereignty under tbe Fed eral system, I am decidedly in favor of the closer and more simplo form of governmeat secured by a legialative union. (Hear, hear.) But I would remark to those who oppoae the former becauae of their profeased desire to see the adoption of the latter, that in attacking the Federal scheme in the manner alluded to, they are only putting arguments into the mouths of those who are opposed to any union at all. They should also take into considera tion, that it ia admitted on all sides that a legialative union ia unattainable, and there fore, practically, we need not now diacuss their comparative merits. It appears to me but a- useless waste of time to advocate a cer tain system of union with others, and to make such advocacy the ground for opposing a prac ticable union, when those with whom we are to unite, and who are free to make their own choice, pronounce against it. (Hear.) We have to consult the wiahea of aix independent provincea ; and if five of them oppose a legis lative union, what sense or juatice ia there in making our preference for it an argument againat tbe only union that all will consent to, unleaa indeed it ia urged that no union is better than a Federal one. In again referring to the remarka of the honorable member for Brome, I feel bound to say that I listened with great pleasure to the miscroscopic analysis to which he subjected the proposed acheme. He was, however, only satisfied with picturing all the posaible dangera to which we might be expoaed in the working of it. He dwelt with a certain kind of satisfaction on the succession of knaves and fools to whom might be committed our future deatiny under it; the possibility that its very adoption would call into existence a race of public men devoid of all moral worth and ordinary in telligence. But, sir, I wish fo take a prac tical, common senae view of this question, and I think the country will be inclined to do the same. Were a similar diaaection made of the provisions or institutions regulating human society in any of ita diversified combinationa, dangera and difficultiea might be magnified, and all patriotism, virtue and justice consigned to the grave of the past ; this would apply 646 equally to all associations, whether of a com mercial, political or national character. Ap ply it to our own position at this moment. We meet here to conduct the affairs of the country ; the forms and rules laid down for our guidance are the result of the wisdom and experience of centuries, and yet half a dozen unprincipled men, if so determined, might obstruct all business and prevent the working of our system of government. The only practical conclusion I can draw from such an analysis would be to abolish all gov emment and abandon all association. My honorable friend went too far ; ho strengthened the poaition of thoae it was hia avowed ob ject to assail. It waa obvioua to my own mind that every day experience, under approx imately aimilar circumatancea, swept away the array of dangers and disasters he conjured up, and happily gave ua hope that men might arise equal to the occaaion that in the future might ariae. Our own politioal difficultiea may be pointed to aa the opposite to this experience. The eaaential difference lies in this. Felt injustice creates our present diffi culties, whereas, with all the supposed defecta of the acheme before ua, palpable injustice to any section cannot be charged against it; and in our dilemma have we not had tbe men equal to the occaaion ? If wo have men at the head of our affairs, deairous of acting justly and uprightly, there ia nothing that I have heard from the honorable member for Brome, the chief opponent of the measure, to create ap prehenaion forthe future. It certainly is incum bent upon the Opposition, if they are disaatia fied with this scheme, considering all the circumatancea ofour position, to lay before the House and country some proposition in lieu of it. Hon. Mr. HOLTON — What do you say to the maintenance of the status quo 'i Col. HAULTAIN— I need hardly remind my honorable friend, who is now ouo of tho leaders of the Opposition, of hia own admis- siona that it ia neither juat nor posaible to remain in statu quo. He haa before aaid that the union, as at preaent conatituted between Upper and Lower Canada, could not continue. And he ia quite right. We cannot remain aa we are. So aaid alao my honorable friend the meraber for Hochelaga (Hon. A. A. Dorion), the preaent leader of the Oppoaition. He haa expreaaly stated that some change was neceaaary. So far we are agreed. A new political combination haa beon accordingly deviaed, and the advocates of it say to the Opposition that if they do not like the scheme, then they are bound on their own admission, as patriotic men, to submit something else. Then only will they have a sufficient excuse for rejecting what is proposed as a solution of our difficulties. (Hear, hear.) The only honorable gentleman who has offered any thing in substitution for Federal union is the honorable member for Brome. I confess, .air, that it was with surprise and something akin to disappointment, that I heard tbe conclu sion, the summing up, of my honorable friend's very able speech. No one can deny to him acuteness of intellect and great analy tic powers of mind, and it waa without doubt an intellectual repaat to which he for some houra treated ua. But, sir, what a waste of mental energy, how fruitleaa hia intellectual toil I Wbat haa his country profited by his exertions ? Has he proposed soraething worthy the elaborate dissection we had listened to? Did he addresa himself to the difficul tiea in which hia country is placed, and pro pound a Conatitution harmonioua and faultless? What did he, sir, propose for drawing together these isolated fragmenta of the British Era pire, consolidating thera into one, and thereby adding to their future atrength and proaperity ? To meot all those urgent wanta and diveralfied intereata, he proposes to appoint " a Colonial Council in London, aomething like the Indian Council, to which our Ministers from the various coloniea might be aent to conault with Her Blajeaty on affairs concerning those prov incea." (Hear, hear.) And what ia this Indian Council that my honorable friend would prefer to the broad union we propose in order to bring those provinces together, which have beon too long aeparated ? What ia the poaition of India,and what the object and compoaition of the Council of India ? That vaat country ia a conquered appanage of the Britiah Crown. It is governed by a Governor in Council, who acta under the orders of the Secretary of State, the preaident of the Indian Council in London. The revenue and expenditure of the Indian Erapire are subjected to the control of the Secre tary in CouncU, and no grant of such revenue can be made without the con currence of a majority of tbo Council. Such sir, ia tho Council that my honorable friend propoaed for our conaideration, and in the adoption of which " we would be takino- the best me.ans of developing our relations in a proper connection with the Mother Coun try." He further says that " in the present 647 scheme there was no step of the kind con templated." And who, sir, in hia sober senses would venture to propose such a step ? It is difficult to conceive that my honorable friend was serious when recommending it for our adoption. A more crude and ill-digosted scheme (using his own words) could scarcely have emanated from his mind. What had become of all the acuteness and microscopic power he brought to bear upon the resolutions of the Quebec Conference ? "A Colonial Council in London, something like the Indian Council !" Does he mean that we ought to have a Council in London which is to direct us as to our proceedings; whicb ia to aend out govemors general to this province from time to tirae to dictate the course of our legialation, and inatruct ua in regard to the expenditure of our money ? — because the Indian Council, under the presidency of a Secretary of State, has control of the whole expenditure of the means of the East India Company, and the Governor General of India acta under their direct supervision and command. I mention this to shew what position the ojiponents of the reaolutiona now before us are in, what they are reduced to in order to provide aome thing aa a aubatitute for what is proposed for their acceptance. Hon. Mr. HOLTON— Surely my houor able friend doea not wish to misrepresent the honorable member for Brome — to say that he purposed to substitute for our present govern mental machinery a council similar to the Indian Council. My honorable friend surely docs not want to impute to the honorable member for Brome, in his absence, such an idea aa that. Col. HAULTAIN.— I find it difficult to impute anything at all. (Laughter.) I have given hia own worda and their legitimate meaning. I could not understand what was paasing in my hooorable friend's mind, which certainly appears to have been in a most ex traordinary state. (Renewed laughter.") From beginning to end my honorable friend aeemed to be labouring under some hallucination. (Laugher.) And I cannot help thinking that my honorable friend from Chateauguay (Hon. Mr. Holton) ia also labouring under the same hallucination. (Laugher.) Hon. BIr. HOLTON — ^I confess I cannot aee the point of the joke. Col. haultain — In making theae re marka I do not seriously wish to impute to the honorable member for Brome a deaire that we ahould put ouraelves into the hands of a Secretary of State and a council at home. I do not suppose that his mind had quite de serted him. But applying something of the same kind of analysis to the remarks of that honorable member, which he applied to the scheme now before the House, it would be quite legitimate and fair to conclude that such was his meaning. I do not think my honorable friend from Brome or the Opposition have any reason to pride themselves on the scheme he has suggested for our guidance. And it ia moat extraordinary that a man of hia acuteneas of mind, and of his extended information, should so far forget himself as aerioualy to propoae for our acceptance, in hia place in Parliament, after a labored, length ened and able analyaia of theae resolutions, this animalcule which he announced as the reault of hia protracted incubation of eight hours' duration. (Laughter.) I am sorry my honorable friend is not here to listen to what I have thought proper to reply. I need not say that I have made these remarks in the moat friendly apirit, befitting the friendlineas and respect that I cordially entertain towards him. When, Mr. Speaker, I think of the sraallness of the objections and of tha greatness of the subjects involved, I cannot help seeing that it is much to the interest of the British Empire, as certainly it is altogether to our interest, that the scheme now before us should go forward fo fruition. I should have liked, had time permitted, to have said a few words as to the remarkable concurrence of circumstances which has taken place in connection with the preaent movement, and to the no loss remarka ble unanimity which on the whole prevailed at the Conference. At the time of the assembling of that body, we heard from all quarters of the extreme difficulty — the almost impossi bility of getting so many men of widely dif ferent opinions, and representing so many diverse interes'ia, to come to a mutual under atanding. It could only have been accom pliahed by fhe unanimous desire that seemed to prevail to accomplish the object that brought them together. And now that wo have secured a scheme, to which the leading men of all the provinces have assented, are we to throw it on one side, and adopt some such miserable thing in its stead as that proposed by my honorable friend the member for Brome ? We have yet to leam what other members of the Opposition may be able to produce ; but I hope, for their own credit's sake, they wUl submit something more suited to the gravity of our position. As between the two schemes yet suggested, I can have no difficulty in making my selection. 648 Much has been said, and I believe felt also, about the uncertainty of our future. We are forcibly reminded that the future is not in our own hands ; neither by any prudence or wisdom of our own, can we determine it. We are from day to day debating upon our present position, deviaing new arrangements for tbe future, and discussing the probabilities of their success or failure. It proclaims our own im potence and our absclute dependence upon a higher Power. I feel deeply, sir — and I make no apology for expressing it — that we ought to look above for Divine guidance ; and I regret that our religious differencea should so operate as to prevent our performing together a public act of invoking God's blesaing on our proceedinga, without which allbur deliberationa wiU fail of aucceaa. (Cheers.) Hon. Mr. ALLEYN moved that the debate be adjourned. Hon. Atty. Gen. CARTIER moved in amendment, that the debate be adjoumed, and be resumed iraraediately after routine business ou Monday. After discussion, the amendment was carried on a diviaion. The Houae then adjourned. Monday, March 6, 1865. Hon. Atty. Gen. MACDONALD— Before the debate on the reaolutiona in your hands, Mr. Speaker, ia continued, I wiah to aay a few words. The Government ia well aware that the Houae muat naturally feel anxious and deairous of information — and that no doubt queationa will ba aaked — aa to the courae whioh the Government will puraue in conaequence of the newa that has been received from the Province of New Brunswick, with reference to the reault of the elections in that province. (Hear, hear.) The Government are quite prepared to atate their pohcy ou the queation before the Houae, inview ofthat information. Although we have no official information as to the result of those elections, and would not be justified, constitutionally, in making up our minds aa to that result, until the Legialature of New Brunawick haa declared itaelf either for or against the Confederation acheme ; yet we know, aa a matter of fact — and we cannot shut our eyea to the fact — that the Premier and several of hia ooUeaguea in the Government of New Brunswick have been defeated, and that so far there has been a declaration against the policy of Federation. Of course, in a general election, it is not to be supposed that the question of Confederation is the only one discussed at the polls. Being a general election, there waa the usual fight between the ins and the outa, the Miniatcr- ialiata and the Opposit'iOn; and, of courae, a lot of o'her influoncea were at work, such as questions between the Intercolonial Railway on the one hand, and linea of railway to connect with the United Statea on the other. Still, we ahould not be treating tbe Houae with candor if we did not atate that we muat conaider the reault of those elections as a check upon the Confederation project. The Canadian Government however, I may say at once, do not consider- that the result of these elections should in any way alter their policy or their courae upon thia question. (Hear, bear.) They wish it to be moat de cidedly underatood, that inatead of thinking it a reason for altering the^'course, they regard it as an additional reason for prorapt and vigorous action. (Hear, hear.) We do not consider that in theae eventa to which I have alluded, there ia any cause whatever for the abandonment of the project, or for ita poatponement, In fact, the only reaaon why we ahould consider them to be a matter of grave import is, that they form the first check that the project bas received since the queation was aiibmitted to tbe people of theae provincea, at the time of the formation of the preaent Government of Canada, [f we only look back to June laat, and then regard the preaent condition of the ques tion, we cannot but feel surpriae at the advance which haa been made. In June last we would have been aatisfied if we could have contemplated tbat so soon as this the question would even have been favorably entertained by the governments of the dif ferent provinces. But, within the short period which has since elapsed, a conference has been held, and the measure framed by that conference haa received the aanction of the govemmenta of all the provinces, and each ofthe governments of the five colonies is pledged to submit, not only the question of Confederation, but the scheme as pre pared by the Conference, to the legislature of each of those provinces. And we have gained more than this. Not only has every government of every colony been pledged to the scbeme, and pledged also to uao all its legitimate influence aa a Government to 649 obtain the endorsation of the project by their respective legislatures, but we have alao obtained the sanction and approval of the Government of the Mother Country. (Hear, hear.) That approval has been conveyed to us by a formal dispatch from the Colonial Office, and in addition, we have had, subsequently, the approval of the Brit ish Government as expressed in Her Ma jesty's own words in the Speech from the Throne in opening the Parliament of Great Britain. And not only this, but we know that it has met, or wUl meet, with the un mistakable approbation and sanction of the Parliament, the press and the people of England. (Hear, hear.) Therefore, instead of being at all surprised that the whole scheme ahould not have been begun, carried on, and «nded without one check, we should be well aatiafied that we have only received one such check from the commencement. The obligations under which the Canadian Government entered at the time that the Conference waa concluded, and thoae reaolu tiona finally agreed to, still remain in ful! force, and we feel that force. We feel it our duty to call upon the Legialature of Canada, and to uae all the legitimate influence of the Government to obtain from the Legialature of Canada a favorable opinion upon the resolu tions that havebeen submittedforits consider ation, (Hear, hear.) And, sir, in view of the intelligence that has reached ua from New Brunawick, we think it of more impprtance than ever that the scheme ahould be carried out as a whole — that it ahould be dealt with as a treaty, to be endorsed without one single amendment or alteration, (ilear, hear.) Aa every hon. member of the Houae who is deairoua.of carrying Confederation muat see, it is now more especially necessary that that course should be taken, so that no other province shall have the opportunity of say ing, " Why, even the Province of Canada itself, through its Legislature, does not ap prove of the scheme as settled by the Con ference." We must give no excuse to any one of the colonies to say, " It is open to us to deal with the question as we like ; for even the Province of Canada, which pressed the subject upon us of the Lower Provinces, did not express its approval of the scheme, but propounded a new one of its own, which it is open to us either to accept or reject." (Hear, hear.) Sir, not only do we feel that the obligation and expediency of press ing this measure upon the attention of the 83 Legialature remain aa before, but we feel it all the more neceaaary now to call for prompt and immediate action. The Govemment will, therefore, at once atate, that it is our design to presa, by all proper and parlia mentary modes of procedure within our power, for an early decision of the House — yes or no — whether they approve of this scheme or do not. (Hear, hear.) One great reason, among othera, calling for promptneaa, ia to provide aa much aa possible against the reaction which will take place in England from the disap pointment that will pervade the minds of the people of England, if they get the impression that the project of the union of the provinces is abandoned. (Hear, hear.) I believe that if one thing more than an other haa raiaed Britiah America, or the Province of Canada, its chief component part, in the estimation of the people and Government of England, it ia that by this scheme there was offered to the Mother Country a means by which these colonies should cease to be a source of embarrassment, and become, in faot, a source of strength. This feeling pervades the public mind of England. Every writer and speaker of note in the United Kingdom, who has treated of the subject, aaya a new era of colonial exiat ence haa been inaugurated, and that if theae coloniea, feeble while diaunited, were a aource of weakneaa, they will, by forming this friendly alliance, become a strong aupport to England. The diaappointment ofthe corres ponding reaction would be great in the Mother Country, if they got the idea that t^e project was to be given up; and we appeal to honorable gentlemen not to fall away from the poaition we have obtained by the mere aubmiaaion of the acheme to the Government and the people of England, and not to allow Canada and the whole of Britiah America to lose all its vantage ground by ahowing any aigna of weakneaa, any signs of receding on thia queation. (Hear, hear.) Another reaaon why thia queation muat be dealt with promptly and an early decision obtained, is, that it ia more or leaa intimately connected with the queation of defence, and that ia a question of the most imminent necessity. (Hear, hear.) No one can exaggerate the necessity which exists for the Legislature of this country considering at once the defences that are called for in the present position of affairs on this continent. I need not say 650 that thia aubject has engaged our anxioua attention aa a Government. The Provincial Government haa been in continued oorrea pondence with the Home Government aa to the beat meana of organizing an efficient de fence againat every hoatile preaaure, from whatever aource it may come. And, aa thia Houae knowa, the reaolutiona themselves speak of the defence queation aa one that must immediately engage the attention of the Confederation. We had hoped tbat the Confederation acheme would have aasuraed such an aspect that the question could have been adjudged of as a whole, and tbat one organized system of defence could have been arranged between the Federal Government and the Imperial Government at an early day. But we cannot disguise, nor can we close our eyes to the fact that the course of events in New Brunswick will prevent an early united action among tbe provinces on the subject of defence; and, therefore, that question comes up as between Canada and England, and we feel that it caunotbe post poned. (Hear, hear.) In fact the subject has already been postponed quite too long. (Hear, hear.) It ia time, high time, that it waa taken up and dealt with in a vigorous manner. (Hear, hear.) These are two of the reaaons which, the Government feel, press for a prompt deciaion of tbe Houae upon the reaolutiona before it, (Hear, hear.) Then there ia a third reaaon, which ia found in the state of the commercial relations exiat ing between Canada and the United Statea. The threatened repeal of the Reciprocity treaty, the hazard of the United Statea doing away with the ayatem of bonding gooda in transitu, and the unaatisfactory position generally of our commercial relationa with the neighboring country — all thia calla for immediate action. And the fact of the union of these provincea being poatponed, and of the conatruction, therefore, of the Intercolo nial Railway being put off iuaefinitely, ren dera thia all the more iraperative. It ia, therefore, the intention ofthe Governraent — and they aeek the aupport of thia Houae and of the country to the policy which I now announce — firat, to bring thia debate to an end with all convenient apeed, with a view to having a declaration of the Houae upon the question of Confederation. The Gov ernment, to this end, will press for a vote by every means which they can properly uae. Then, secondly, as soon as that is obtained, it is the intention of the Government to ask the Legislature for a vote of credit, and pro rogue Parliament at the earliest posaible date. (Hear, hear.) It ia their intention to provide that all the unfinished busineaa of the preaent session shall be so arranged, that it can be proceeded with next session, from the point where it is dropped at the close of this aeaaion. Upon the prorogation of Par liament, the Government will send a mission to England at once, for the purpose of dis- cuaaing and arranging these important points to which I have aUuded — the question of Confederation, under ifs present aspect — the question of defence — and all matters bearing upon our commercial relations with the neighboring country; with instructions to press their work forward with the least pos aible delay, with the view of enabling the Government to submit the reault of the mia aion — whioh we hope wiU be aatiafactory — to thia Houae at an early aummer aession. (Loud cheers.) Hon. j. S. MACDONALD said— The manner and spirit in which the Government have made the announcement of their de cision is so far satisfactory. They have, however, adopted a new policy and announced a change of tactics, and one which this House is to be called upon to enforce. They have departed widely from the policy that they decided upon not long since. I beo- leave to call the attention of the House to the words used by the Hon. Premier of the Government hiraself, at the opening of the session. He says : — They had aaaumed the charge of affaira with an underatanding that they would have a rio-ht to appeal to the country ; and while they were cjn- sulting about it, they received an intimation from the real chief of the Opposition, through one of their own friends, to the effect that°he waa desiroua of making overturea to them, with the view of aeeking to accommodate the difficulties. The hon. gentleman and some of his friends then came into contact with the leaders of the Govern ment, and it was agreed hetween them to try to deviae a acheme which would put an end to the misunderstandings, aud at the aame time seeure for Canada and the other provinces a position which would ensure their future safety, aud pro cure for them the respect and confidence of other nationg. They arranged a large acheme and a smaUer one. And now, Mr. Speaker, I wish to call the attention of the Houae to thia point. « If the larger failed, then they were to fall back upon the minor, which provided for a Feder ation of the two sections of the province." 651 The larper scheme, Mr. Speaker, ia evidently a failure. (Hear, hear.) And I will tell you why I think it a failure, Thia scheme was to be agreed to by all the pro vinces, and the different Governments were to bring it down for the consideration of their several Houses of Parliament. The leaders of the Opposition in New Bruns wick, as well as the Government of that province agreed to a treaty, as if is called, and went back to submit that treaty to their Legislature for approval. But being defeated in New Brunawick, it ia not possible for the arrangement to be carried out. What reaaon haa the Government for believing that those who have been just elected in New Bruns wick as opponenta of the scheme will allow it to be brought down for the conaideration of their Legialature ? How can it be expected that a free people will agree to a scheme, from the terms of which they entirely dia- sent ? It seems to be the idea of honorable gentlemen opposite, that if this Legislature adheres to the scheme, it will be forced upon the unwilling people of New Brunswick — that some proceaa will be found by which the Government of that province will be induced to submit it to their Legialature. They seem to imagine that the rejection of tbe Tilley Government, and, consequently, of their Confederation scheme, by the peo ple, is a matter that can be traced only to the annexation proclivities of a large section of the people of New Brunswick. If that is so, we ought immediately to appoint a day of general thanksgiving, in this appropriate time of Lent, for the blessing of being relieved from any danger of union with such a people. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) It would be one of the greatest miafortunea that eould happen our province to be con nected with thoae annexationiats. Hon. Mr. HOLTON— But it ia not true that the annexation feeling waa the cause of the defeat. Hon. J. S, MACDONALD— I do not say it is so, but I am referringto what members of the Government have said about this defeat being caused by the disloyal and annexation proclivities of the people of New Brunswick. Hon. Atty. Gen. MACDONALD— Who did? Hon j. S. MACDONALD— WeU, I find their organ of this morning attributing it to that cause. And what did the Minister of Agriculture (Hon. Mr. MoGee) say on Fri day night, on the reception of the news ? He said there were many in that portion of the province who were influenced by a desire for connection with the United States, and that there were capitalists from Boston and from Maine whose interests lay in having New Brunswick more closely coupled with the destiny of the United States. If these are the feelings that induced the gentlemen who have been elected to repudiate the proceed ings of the Convention, then, I say again. they are a people with whose views we of Canada ahould have no sympathy. If the gentlemen on the Treasury benches suppoae that by passing tbese resolutions they will compel the gentlemen, who have been returned to that Parliament on the expresa condition that they ahall oppose the treaty or Convention scheme, to turn round and aupport it, then what ahall we say of such men ? What ahall we say of men who, after having obtained the suffrages of the people as opponents of the scheme, ahall turn round immediately after they have got into office, and in effect perjure themselves? (Hear, hear.) We have, unfortunately, enough of that class of legislators in Canada, without linking our destinies with like persons from New Brunswick. If that is the character of the people to whom we are to be united, then all I can say is, that they are not a deairable claaa to have added to Canada. If it is contemplated that they are going to compel those gentlemen to vote approval of the scheme, who have been elected specially to oppose it, it would be very interesting to know by what process it is to be done. Are they to be bribed into acquiescence, or forced into submission ? If the latter, then we must presume that they are not of the race of British freemen who, elsewhere, would resent with indignation — ay, rebel — before yielding up their indepen dence; and in that view, they are again unworthy of association with us. There is no doubt that the gentlemen who have been elected in New Brunswick have deliberately considered their position, and whether it is attempted to bribe them or coerce them, they will manfully resent it. I do not believe it is desirable to have a Confederation adopted by either course. What are we to gain by compelling such a community to come in with us ? Will they not, for all time to come, cast upon us tbe reflection that they became part and parcel of the Confederacy without their consent ? Is it desirable to have to do with neighboring 652 colonists, who have been either forced or bribed to accept what is repugnant to them ? Will they not always be a source of discord by endeavoring to make the acheme work badly? (Hear, hear, ) But, Mr. Speaker, We have before ua an instance of the danger of men undertaking to make treatiea without authority. This ia the kind of penalty which they pay, ..nd I think we have an instalment of the punishment that ia justly due to them, and which tliey will receive. Sir, we find that iu New Brunswick, Nova Sootia and Prince Edward Island, a union took place between the Government and tbo Opposition for the purpose of arranuint; a plau by whioh thoae provinces should be joined together. They had the authority of their respective governments and legislaturea before entering into that Conference. They met together by deliberate pre-arrangoment, with full conaent, unlike the manner iu which the gentlemen oppoaite precipitated them selvea into a union fever, growing out of a politioal contingency. VYhen the delegatea went to Charlottetown, from their reapective provincea, to treat of mattera of great impor tance to the people of thoae provincea, and conaidered it to be a deairable object to obtain the union of the Maritime Provincea, they were interrupted in their deliberationa by the merabera of the Canadian Governraent. — Greater inducementa were then offered them, and they were filled with higher hopea and expectationa of the good thinga to be derived from the Confederation of all the provincea. Lieutenant-governorahips, chief-j naticeahipa, and Ufe-meraberahipa of the Legialative Council were aU held out in the proapective by the Canadian Miniatera. By theae means they inveigled these men from the object for which they met, and undermined the purpose they were assembled to promote. The Cana dian Ministers said : — " Never mind your union of these provinces. Come away from Charlottetown with us, and we will show you plana by wbich your ambition may be bett x gratified, although you may thereby betray the truat of the people who aent you here They may not be satisfied, but never mind them — they can be managed in some way afterwards. We will show you the way." This, in effect, was the language used towards the delegates. They took the bait offered them, and the next thing we heard of was the adjournment of the Convention to Halifax, where the delegatea enjoyed the <' feast of reason and the flow of soul" for a week. They then sped off to St. John, where convivialities were renewed, and finally they aU agreed to come to Quebec, and we all recollect the subsequent feastings in Montreal, Ottawa, Kingston, Toronto and Hamilton. I will not allude to the meeting that took place here, becauae it ia well known what tbe reault of the Conference waa ; but I will speak of the sequel to theae proceedings — the events that subaequently happened in the Lower Provincea. Hon. Mr. Tilley knew he could have submitted the scheme of the Quebec Conference to the people of New Brunswick — that he could have summoned the Parliament of that province and ascer tained what its wishes were — as early as the Canadian Government could. But he did nothing of the kind. He knew he had vio lated the trust reposed in him, and that he had given reason for a withdrawal of the peo ple's confidence ; but he thought that by bringing on an election in the country, he could gain his own ends by the unsparing uae of all the influence a govemment can employ on such occasions, and by employing all the arta of cajolery for the purpoae of deceiving the people and winning them over to his own aelfiah purposes. Well, what is the result ? Hon. Mr. Tilley and hia followers are routed horae and foot by the honeat people of the province, acouted by thoae whoae intereata he had betrayed and whoae behests he had neglepted; and I think hia fate ought to be a warning to thoae who adopted this acheme without autherity, and who ask the House to ratify it en bhc, without having aought or aeeking to obtain the aanction of the people. (Hear, hear.) I come now, air, to a matter personal perhaps more to myaelf than to any one elae. I would aak the Houae who waa it that aasailed the Govemment of Canada more by hia apeechea and letters than thia aame Hon. Mr. Tilley ? Who was it that charged the Govemment of this country with a breach of faith towards the Lower Provinces in refer ence to the construction of the Intercolonial Railway; and whose statement was it that was reechoed on the floor of this Houae over and over again, that Canada had lowered its character and dignity by faUing to go on with that undertaking ? Waa it not the Hon. Mr. Tilley who made theae falae accusations, and were they not, on his authority, repeated here by an honorable gentleman now in the Government, at the head of the Bureau of Agriculture (Hon. Mr. McGee) ? RecoUectr ing these things, sir, I have a pleasure— a mischievous pleasure — (hear, hear, and laugh- 653 ter) — I have a mischievous pleasure, I say, in knowing that the Hon. Mr. Tilley has been defeated. (Ironical cheers.) I repeat that I have experienced to-day a considerable degree of happiness in announcing that the man who, at the head of the Government of New Brun- wick, betrayed the trust of the people, who faUed to carry out their wishes in respect to the union of the Maritime Provinces, who exceeded the authority with whioh he was entrusted, who betrayed the interests of his province and abandoned everything that he was sent to Charlottetown to obtain — the man who went throughout the length and breadth of his province crying out against the good faith of the then Canadian Government — I say I have happiness in announcing that he has been disposed of by the people. (Hear, hear.) Hon. Mr. Tilley came to Quebec in 1863, with Hon. BIr. Tupper, and although he made the charge of bad faith against the Canadian Government, he knew as well as Hon. Mr. Tupper that the agreement of 1862 respecting the Intercolonial Railway was to be abandoned, except so far as the survey of the line was concerned. Hon. Mr. McGEE— Hear, hear. Hon. j. S. MACDONALD— The honor able gentleman cries " Hear, hear," but can he say that, while a member of the Government, he did not write a letter to a gentleman in this province, in which he said that the scheme of 1862 was abandoned by the Canadian Gov ernment. Hon. Mr. MoGEE — The honorable gen tleman has made that charge once before pub licly, and I denied it publicly. If he can get any such letter of mine, he is fully authorized by me to make it public. Hon. Mr. Tilley, so far from believing the scheme abandoned, went back to New Brunswick with a very dif ferent impression ; and I ask the honorable gen tleman whether he did not say to him whUe here: — "I declare to God, Tilley, if I thought by resigning my office we could get the Intercolonial Railway, I would do it." The honorable gentleman is out of office now, and perhaps he wiU say whether he made this declaration or not. (Hear, hear.j Hon. j. S. MACDONALD — I do not deny that. I was then, and always have been, in favor of the Intercolonial Railway, and am desirous that it should be built. I think that an outlet to the ocean on Bri tish soil, at all seasons of the year, is a very desirable thing to be obtained, and upon that point I have never changed my opinion. But I do say that Hon. Mr. Tupper and Hon. Mr. Tilley understood that it was not to be proceeded with at that time, and a memoran dum was drawn up by Dr. Tupper at the time (I am now speaking in the presence ot my late colleagues, who are aware of all the tacts), embodying the decision at which the Govem ment arrived, but which wasnot signed, because Hon. Mr. Tilley aaked that Mr. Fleming might be conaidered as engaged to proceed with the survey, and wished to reserve it for the formal ratification of his colleagues when he went back to New Brunswick. When he did go back, his colleagues dissented from the views he had formed, and, in order to get himaelf out of the awkward poaition in which he waa placed, he took the ground that the abandonment of the project waa owing to the bad faith of the Canadian Govemment. Now I say it is -a matter of great satisfaction to me that the honorable gentleman who cir culated this charge, and gave ground for honorable gentlemen now on the Treasury benches to attack the Government of which I was a member, and accuse it of bad faith to the sister provinces, has for these bold and auda cious statements met bis just deserts. He has been scouted and rejected by his own people. He has lost tbeir confidence, and with ; bat loss of confidence this great scheme of Con federation has come to woeful grief. I say punishment has overtaken him. It was a long time coming, but it haa come at laat vi it'i terrible effect. (Hear, hear.) The Hon. Attorney General Weat saya that the Govern ment will ask for a vote of credit, but he has not told us how long this vote will extend. He does not teU what they will do if .he Confederation scheme fails, as it is pretty sure to fail. He does not say that it is going to carry, nor does he say that it will b-~ suc ceeded by any other. Where, I would like tu know, is the smaller scheme — the pet scheme ofthe meraber for South Oxford — of a Feder ation of Canada firat, to be followed, if need be, by a Federation of all the pro vinces ? What ia the honorable gentleman to do with this scheme? Ia it to be brought down to the Houae, or, the larger one having failed, ia it to be kept in hand for use at some future time ? Have we not a ri<>;ht to know what this scheme is and what tho Government proposes to do in regard to it? (Hear, hear.) Are the people of tbe country to be left in a feverish atate of excitement, becauae the Government haa no definite policy, until the miaaion spoken of goes to Eciiiand, in the hope that the people of the Lower Provino»8 wiU in the meantime repent of th^ 654 action they have taken ? Why, sir, not only have the minds of the people of Canada been unhinged by the proceedings of the past year, not only have they been made dissatified with the institutions under which they have lived and prospered for a number of years, but political parties have also been demoralized. (Hear, near.) Yes, the Reform party has become so disorganized by this Confederation scheme, that there is scarcely a vestige of its greatness left — hardly a vestige of that great party that demanded reform for a number of years, but which unfortunately, in 1864 as in 1854, went over to the other side wben ita leaders could no longer endure to remain in the cold shades of opposition. (Hear, hear.) Ia it too much to ask honorable gentlemen on the Treasury benches to tell us something of the scheme for federating these two provinces — to give ua an inkling of what is to be done, now that the other scheme haa failed, and of the liabilities to be assumed by the respective sectiona of Canada ? Are we to be kept in ignorance on theae aubjecta ? Are the affairs of the country to continue in the unsettled state in which they now are ? Is all legisla^ tion to remain at a atand-atill until the more and more doubtful proapect of Confederation is realized ? (Hear, hear.) What amount of money is required by the Government to meet the danger that ia aaid to have suddenly threatened us ? Are the people not to know what preparations are to be made and what sums are to be expended in our defence ? I am not opposed to any proper measures being taken to defend the country, but at the same time prudence dictates that we should know what tbey are to coat before we blindly vote for them. If Confederation ia not to take place, what is the uae of going on with measures of defence that depended upon Confederation being carried ? Why not come down now with a scheme that will apply to Canada alone, and let us know precisely what burdena the people wUl have to bear for their defence, what additional taxation will be required, and all other information connected with the aub ject ? (Hear, hear.) I do aay that it is anything but satisfactory to be told tbat we are to postpone the promised scheme for our defence at thia time, to adjourn over till aum- mer,and in the meantime to aend commissioners home to treat with the Imperial Government. If tbe danger ia so imminent as it is said to be, why this long delay ? (Hear, hear.) Sir, I never was myself an advocate of any change in our Constitution ; I believed it was capable of being well worked to the satisfaction ofthe people, if we were free from demagogues and designing persons who sought to create strife between the sections. (Hear, hear.) I am not disposed to extend my remarks further at present. All I can say is, that the Honorable Attomey General West has done the House justice if he has given us all the information in his possession with regard to the present aspect of the Confederation question ; and yet it appears to me somewhat absurd to proceed with the debate, when even the Govemment itself admits the measure to be a failure. (Hear, hear.) Hon. Mr. DORION— I think the an nouncement made by the Hon. Attorney Gen eral West must have taken the House a little by surprise. (Hear, hear.) The policy agreed on by the Govemment in June, 1864, was certainly not the one carried out at the opening of this session, and still less that which has just been announced. The policy, as we find it in a memorandum then communicated to the House, was that a measure for the Confederation of the two Canadas, with pro visions for the admission of the other pro vinces, should be brought before the House this seaaion. I will give the terma of the memorandum, in order that there may be no doubt about it. When explanationa were given in June last, by the present Govern ment, two memoranda were communicated to the House. Oue was a memorandvim that had been communicated to the Hon. the President of the CouncU, and marked " Con fidential." It was in these words : — The Government are prepared to state, that im mediately after the prorogation, they will addreaa themaelvea, in the most earneat manner, to the ne gotiation for a Confederation of all the Britiah North American Provincea. That, failing a successfal issue to such negoti- tions, they are prepared to pledge themselves to legislation during the next seaaion of Parliament for the purpose of remedying the existing difficul ties, by introducing the Federal principle for Canada alone, coupled with such proviaiona aa will permit the Maritime Pro-vincea and the North- 'Western Territory to be hereafter incorporated into the Canadian system. That, for the purpose of carrying on the nego tiations and settling the detaila of the promis'ed legislation, a Royal Commission shall be issued, composed of three membera of the Government aud three membera of the Opposition, of whom Mr. Bro-wn shall be one, and the Government pledge themselves to give all the influence ofthe Administration to secure to the said Commisaion the meana of advancing the great object in -view. This was the first memorandum that was 655 communicated to the Honorable President of the Council. It was a proposition on behalf of the members of the then Government to the Honorable President of the Council, to the effect that the Government would be pre pared, immediately after that session, to take measures for obtaining a Confederation of all the provinces, and, failing in that scheme, to bring into the House at the next session — that is the present session — a scheme for the Confederation of the two Canadas, with a provision that the Maritime Provinces might come into the union when they saw fit. But this proposition was not accepted, and another memorandum was submitted to the Honor able President of the Council in the following terms : — The Government are prepared to pledge them aelvea to bring in a meaaure next session for the purpose of removing existing difficulties, by in troducing the Federal principle into Canada, coupled with auch proviaiona aa will permit the Maritime Provincea and the North-West Territory to be incorporated into the same aystem of gov ernment. This, then, is what the Government pledged itself to do. The firat memorandum to open negotiations for a Confederation with the Lower Provinces waa rejected by the Honor able Preaident of the CouncU, and he agreed to go into the Government on this pledge, that it would be prepared to bring in a mea sure, thia session, for the purpose of removing existing difficulties, by introducing the Fed eral principle into the Government of Canada, coupled with such provisions as would enable the Lower Provinces to come iu at any sub sequent time. This is the measure that was promised by the Government ; this is the measure that honorable gentlemen on the other side, at the end of last session, said they would be prepared to introduce to the Legislature this session. But instead of that the whole scheme has been altered. (Hear, hear.) Hon. Mr. GALT— -Read the balance of the statement. Hon. Mr. DORION— There is nothing in the remainder of it to qualify the pledge then made by the Government. (Hear, hear.) It is a distinct and positive pledge given by hon. gentlemen in their places on the Treasury benches, that at this session of Parliament they would bring in a measure for the Con federation of the two Canadas, leaving it to the other provinces to come in if they pleased. (Hear, hear.) Certainly there is this addition at the end of the memorandum : — And the Government will seek, by sending representatives to the Lower Provincea and to England, to aecure the aaaent of those intereats which are beyond the control of our own legiala tion, to auch a mjaaure aa will enable all British North America to be united under a General Legialature based upon the Federal system. We find, from theae explanationa, that a measure for the Confederation of the whole of the provinces did not suit the Hon. Presi dent of the Council and the Liberal party in Upper Canada, that it was rejected by him and his party as not the proper remedy for our difficulties, and that another meas ure was accepted by him, applying the principle of Federation to the two Canadas ; and in order to secure to that measure the acquiescence of those interests which were beyond the control of the Government of this country, delegates were to be sent to confer with the Lower Provinces with the view of bringing tbem into this union. Well, sir, I must say that if tbe honorable gentlemen opposite had not been untrue to their pledge — if they had brought to this House the measure they then promised — we in this country would, at all events, have been saved the humiliation of seeing the Government going on its knees and begging the little island of Prince Edward to come into this union, and then going to Nova Scotia and New Brunswick and supplicating them to re lieve us of our difficulties ; and saved the humiliation of seeing tbese supplications and the bribes in every direction with which they were accompanied, in the shape of subsidiea to New Brunswick and Newfoundland, and of the Intercolonial Railway, rejected by those to whom they were offered. Canada would, at all eventa, have held a dignified position, and not auffered the humiliation of seeing all the offera of our Government in dignantly rejected by the people of the Lower Provinces. The Hon. Attorney General Weat says that the scheme of Confederation has obtained the conaent of the governments of all the provinces ; but where are those governments now ? Where is the Government of New Brunswick ? Where is the Govern ment of Prince Edward Island ? (Hear, hear.) As for the Government of Nova Sco tia, it pledged itself to bring the scheme be fore the Legislature ; but it is well known that it dare not press it, and still less appeal to the people upon it. The members of that Government were wiser than the Government of New Brunswick, and would not appeal to the people. And here I must say that I 656 oomplmient the Government upon the wisdom it .shows in not appealing to the people of Car.ada. Honorable gentlemen have sho-wn far more Icreaight in thia matter than the Gov ernment of New Brunswick, in refusing to let llic people have an opportunity of pro nouncing upon this scheme, for the petitions coming down daily againat it ahow conclu sively tbat the people, of Lower Canada at aU events, are almost unanimously against it, and that an appeal to them would meet, as regards the members of the Lower Ca nada Administration, with the same fate which befel the membera of the New Bruna wick Government. (Hear.) I do not wiah, sir, fo prolong this debate more than neces sary, out I muat say that I am aurpriaed to hoai tho Hon. Attorney General West aay that the defencea of the country require auch im mediate attention that the matter cannot be delayed fbr a moment. If I miatake not, the Covornment have had in their handa a report from Col. Jervois upon the defences, since the 12th of October last, and yet since that tirae not a aingle thing haa been done towards defence. We are now told with atartling emphaaia that the country is about to be in vaded, or is in moat imminent danger ; and all at ence, now that the great acheme of Confederation ia defeated, we learn that not an hour'a delay can be allowed, and that we cannot even wait to vote the supplies, so urgent is the necessity of sending a mission to Ei.^land about this matter. Between Friday last and this morning the Government has dis covered that this imminent danger threatens us, and so anxious is it about it that we cannot even stop to vote the ordinary sup plies, but must pasa at once a vote of credit. (Hear, hear.) And, sir, while I am on the subject of the defences, I must say it ia moat aatoniahing that although we have repeatedly asked for information on the subject, in con nection with this great scbeme, we ban not get it. (Hear, hear.) At the earliest mo ment after the commencement of the seaaion the honorable member for Drummond and Arthabaaka (Mr. J. B. E. Dorion) made a motion for any deapatchea, reporta, or com munications, or fbr extracta theieof, which might be in the poasession of the Government on the queation of the defences of the country, and the Hon. Attorney General Weat roae and replied that to give thia information would endanger the safety of the province. The Miniatry of Canada therefore refused us that which we now find in the report which comes from England. Hon. Atty. Gen. MACDONALD— Not the report. Hon. Mr. DORION— If not the report, at all eventa the substance of it. There they do not find that it wiU endanger the safety of the country by gi-ving the House of Commons such information as will enable Parliament to take the necessary steps to provide for the defences of any part of the British Empire. I moved another Address at a later period, asking for such information on the subject of our defences as the Government might deem it proper to give ; and although that Address was voted a full fortnight ago, I have been unable to obtain an answer to it up to the present time. Nor can we get information in regard to the finances — in fact every kind of information whioh is necessary to enable us to form proper and correct judgments is refused. But, sir, I must say that at the present moment I am unaware of any reason which could be urged for our being called upon to act with such precipitate haste aa to grant a vote of credit to hon. gentlemen. (Hear, hear.) The aession has been caUed at the usual time — rather earlier than the usual time fbr holding our meetings of Par liament — and I aay it ia a moat extraor dinary thing that we ahould be aaked by tbe honorable gentlemen on tbe other aide to give them a vote of credit. (Hear, hear.) Why, sir, is the whole busineaa of the country to be thrown into a condition of derangement in order to aUow the honorable gentlemen to get themaelvea out of a difficulty — not to get the country, but themaelvea, out of the difficulty which tbey have acknowledged to have over taken them? (Hear, hear.) Are all the affaira of the province to be thrown over, for auch a reason, until next session, which may not be held for six months or nine months, or until the honorable gentlemen choose to c.iU us again together ? Because " an early summer seaaion " may be the month of Auguat or the month of September, or it may mean even a later period than that. Do they expect a vote of credit of aix mUliona of dollara to enable them to conatruct theae defencea whieh are apoken of by Col. Jervois ? Hon. Mr. GALT— No, no. Hon. Mr. DORION— Then, if we do not paaa a vote for that purpose, what is to be come of the country in the meantime ? (Hear, hear.) We are told that there is urgent ne- ceaaity for expending money on our defencea, and that the danger ia imminent. Well, sir, I apprehend if there is imminent danger, we ought to be kept sitting here until provision 65"^ is made to meet that danger, or at all events, affairs ought to be placed in such a position that, at any moment, we can be called to gether to pro-Tide for the danger. (Hear, hear.) Hon. Mr. GALT— We want to avert it. Hon. Mr. HOLTON— What is the dan ger? Hon. Mr. DORION— It puzzles the hon orable gentlemen to reply. I think that they themselves never discovered there was any cause for alarm until Friday last, when there was imminent danger of the defeat of their scheme, and imminent danger also of the loss of their position. (Laughter.) This, sir, is the real danger the hon. gentlemen want to avert, and they proceed to do so by asking us, in lieu of granting the ordinary supplies, topass_a vote of credit. We will then be sent away, with the prospect before their friends and support ers of another session thia summer, when the additional sessional allowance wUl of course be welcome to all. (Hear, hear, sud laugh ter.) I simply rose, sir, to protest against the continuance of this scheme by the honor able gentlemen opposite. I think they are bound to proceed in some other way, seeing that this scheme cannot be carried; as it cer tainly cannot. It has been rejected not only by New Brunswick, but by Prince Edward Island, one of whose delegates to Quebec, Mr. Whelan, has been holding meetings, and all that he has been able to accomplish is the passing of resolutions of confidence in himself, and the assertion that no such scheme should be given effect to without being first submit ted to the people. That is the most favora ble expression of opinion that can be obtained in Prince Edward Island. It is well known, too, that the Legislature of Nova Scotia is against the scheme by a large majority. And now we find that New Brunswick has pro nounced against it also. WiU hon. gentlemen go to England and press on the scheme under such circumstances ? WiU they argue that because we are 2,500,000 and they only 900,- 000, we ought io swallow them up by press ing them into Confederation against their wishes ? (Hear, hear.) I do not suppose honorable gentlemen on the other side pur pose attempting to coerce, by means of their influence with the Imperial Govemment, the Lower Provinces to come into this Confederar tion. Therefore it is that I say that this scheme is kiUed. (Hear, hear, and derisive Opposition cheers.) I repeat that it is killed. I claim that it is the duty of hon. gentlemen opposite, and particularly is it the duty of the Hon. President of the Council, to insist upon their colleagues keeping to the pledges they have made. It is the duty of the Liberal members generally to insist on these pledges being redeemed, without whioh they would have refused to sanction the taking of office by the three Liberal members of the Government, and in accordance with which alone they eould justify that step before their consti tuents. It was only the knowledge that, failing the success of this measure, they would carry out a scheme which was within the power of the Government to carry, that the Liberal party of Upper Canada approved of their three friends making part of the Gov emment. The Administration could not give a pledge that they would carry the Confeder ation of all the provinces, but they could pledge, and did pledge themselves to bring in, in the event of the failure of that scheme, a meaaure for the federation of Upper and Lower Canada. And, air, not only was this promiae made at that time, but we have since seen, this session, the head of the Government, Hon. Sir E. P. "Taoh^, renewing the pledge then given in these words : — " They arranged a large soheme and a smaller one. If the larger faUed, then they would faU back upon the minor, whioh provided for a federation of the two sections of the province." And it was expressly stated that during this session, if the present scheme failed, they should bring in a measure to federate the two provinces. (Hoar, hear.) That was the promise given to the Honorable President of tbe Couucil, and, if it is not redeemed, I fear his position will be a most unenviable one in the country. (Hear, hear.) Mr. T. C. wallbridge— There is another point, Mr. Speaker, upon which I desire to see an understanding come to before we proceed further with this discuaaion. Honorable gentlemen opposite have attempted by their profeaaiona to manufacture a little cheap pocket loyalty, and to that end I find the moat atrocious sentiments expressed in this morning's editorial of their organ, the Quebec Chronicle. I will read the paragraph. Hon. Mr. GALT — You need not; we have aU read it. Mr. WALLBRIDGE— It wUl bear read ing again for the information of the House. It is as foUows : — A telegram from New Brunswick ou Saturday night aaya Tilley and WATTEsa are defeated — majority 250. Theae gentlemen were the Con federate candidatea for the city of St. John. Knowing the infiuences at work, we are not greatly aurprised at the reault ; but our conviction in the 658 alternative of confederation or annexation ia more than ever confirmed when we see how com pletely American influence can control elections of the provincea. Theae aentimenta are calculated to introduce into politioal diacuaaion in thia country a dangerous element, a mischievous cry. I would like to aak the Hon. Attorney General Weat, who has to some extent endorsed this sentiment, whether I was right in under standing him to say tbat it was the infiuence exerted by American railway men on the elections whioh led to the defeat of the Confederation candidates ? Hon. Atty. Gen. MACDONALD— What is that ? Mr. WALLBRIDGE— I understood the Hon. Attorney General West to state that the American railway influence had had some effect upon the St. John's elections. Hon. Atty. Gen. MACDONALD— I wiU repeat to thehonorable gentleman what I did say. It was this : that I had no doubt the ques tion of Confederation was one of the subjects which influenced the people of St. John. But I did not pretend that that was the only one. There were other local questions which, I have no doubt, had their due weight of influence. There was, for instance, the usual struggle between the ins and the outs, and I presume there was the influence to be contended against of those who were in favor of the railways to the American frontier — the Coast Line or Western Exten sion Railway — as opposed to the Intercolonial Railway interest. Mr. WALLBRIDGE— I wish to nail this forgery to the counter before it goes further, and to that end I desire to be permitted to read a few extracta from one of the leading papera in the Lower Provincea (the Nova Scotian'), and which are aa follow : — But not quite so fast, good friends. This ia not the first we have beard of this " military " railway. Last summer, a committee of Congress, composed mostly of shrewd New Englanders, came from Washington to examine and report as to the expediency of constructing a "military " road to the frontier of New Brunswick. They were not allowed, however, to stop at the fron tier, for when they arrived there they found an invitation inviting them to go on to St. John. They went, and St. John waa in a perfect ywrore of interesting excitement. A public meeting was called i we are not sure whether Mr. Tillkt was present or not — we thiuk he waa accidentally abaent from some inevitable cause, but sent a message with his compliments and sympathies. The mayor occupied the chair ; the vianda were excellent ; the champagne flowed " ting their former profesaiona on the repreaent ation question, and broadly asserts that the I Honorable President of the Council, as the leader in the agitation for representation by population, has agreed to a measure that is a mere delusion, that in point of fact puts Up per Canada in a worse position than she now occupies. He says that instead of occupying a position of equality in the legislature, as now, she wiU be found in the new union with a majority of thirty arrayed against her. The honorable gentleman builds his argument upon false and erroneous premises, when he says that Upper Canada does not get by this scheme what its people have long sought, representation according to its population; and when he points out that all the other provinces, unitedly, wiU outvoie her in the General Legislature by thirty votes, I submit, sir, that his argument is exceedingly unfair, and is founded on the aaaumption that Upper Canada aaked for an increase of representa tion for the purpose of obtaining supremacy in the Government. Now, I deny that most emphatically on behalf, not only of myself, but of every man from Upper Canada who de manded a change in the representation. We did not advocate that change fbr the purpose of gaining the supremacy, but simply and solely as a measure of justice t3 the people of Upper Canada, and to place them on an equal footing, man for man, with the people ot Lower Canada. We had certain grievances and wrongs which we complained of, and which the granting of representation would not of itself redress ; we complained that a larger proportion of the public revenues, to which we contributed seventy per cent., was spent in Lower Canada than in Upper Can ada; we complained alao of legialative acts pasaed by majoritiea from Lower Canada and which concerned Upper Canada chiefly ; we did not aak repreaentation by population be cauae we believed it, of itself, would sweep away aU thia injustice, but becauae it would give ua thia advantage, that we would in this House have our due proportion of the repre aentation, every man in Upper Canada having an equal, and no more than equal, voice in the J-egialature with every.man in Lower Can ada. Thia was all we asked ; we never de manded more than what waa just ; we asked but f'au- play — British fair play — an equal representation, man for man, and we would be wUUng to take our chance in the political struggle for the redress of the evils we com plained of. We never sought or wished for supremacy, but only our juat and fair in fluence according to our numbers and the public burdens we bore, and having obtained 677 this we were willing to take our chance whether that influence, employed in a legiti mate and constitutional way, succeeded in re moving our grievances or not. (Hear, hear.) To say now that we do not obtain what we have contended for — to say that we do not got representation by population because the Lower Provinces, including Lower Canada, will have thirty more votes in the General Legislature, is simply doing Upper Canada an injustice and a wrong ; and the history of the British parliamentary system and our own experience in Canada, warrant the conclusion that in the General Legislature we shall not have, as aUeged by honorable gentlemen op posed to the scheme, parties divided against one another because of the provinces which they represent. Under our present Constitution we are not divided sectionally, but as political parties, for we find gentlemen from both sections taking sides according to their poli tical predilections, irrespective of sectional considerations ; and so it will be under the propoaed Confederation. We have conaerva- tives and radicals, and always will have them. Do we not find men of both races in the pro vince voting on both sides politically ? It is true the demand for constitutional changes has to some extent, but only to some extent, divided us as the representatives of sections in this House ; but on all other questions — such as commerce, banking, customs tariffs, excise, and other questions — we find gentle men voting according to their political views, and not as representing sections. So it will be under the Confederation. People will be divided into parties by their political opinions and leanings, and not by sectional considera tions. (Hear, hear.) In claiming, then, that under it there will, on all questions, be a majority against Upper Canada, is to assume that Upper Canada wUl be at war with all the other provinces, and that they will be con tinually at war with it. WeU, what right has any man to assume that this will be the case — that Upper Canada will be the Ishmael of the Confederation ? I think he has none what ever. (Hear, hear.) The addition of seven teen members to Upper Canada in the outset, with the proposed arrangement for re-adjust ment every ten years according to the increase or decrease of population in each of the pro vinces, is substantial justice to all, and is all that Upper Canada ever asked for or expected. But, Mr. Speaker, the honorable member for North Ontario not only accuses the Upper Canadians who support this scheme of an abandonment of their principles on this point, aud of offering to the people of Upper Canada the very opposite of what they asked for, but charges that we have sacrificed our cash as well as our principles. An honorable mem ber of the other House hag taken similar ground, and charges in effect that the Lower Provinces have been bribed into this scheme at the expense of Upper Canada, and that as regards Lower Canada, we undertake to pay her in perpetuity a subsidy of $167,000 a year ; and the honorable gentleman asks if ever Lower Canada asked for anything like that under our present system ? He tells us, too, that for each of the seventeen additional mem bers we get in tbe Federal Government, we pay at the rate of $16,000 each. As regards the Lower Provinces, I submit that it cannot be shewn that their union with us wiU be to our detriment in money matters. They will contribute as large an amount per head to the general revenue as we do in Upper Canada, and if any financial effect wUl be felt by Upper Canada in consequence of the union of these provinces with us, I think it must be in the direction of lessening her burdens ; such, at all events, is the con clusion 1 have arrived at, and such, I think, is the conclusion any man wUl arrive at who wUl take the trouble to inform himself of the position of these provinces as regards the fin ancial questiona between Upper and Lower Canada. I do not know where the honorable member geta his figures, nor can I very well understand them, but in regard to the subaidy of $167,000 a year tbat he speaks of, what are the facts of the case ? Let it be borne in mind, sir, that as Upper Canadians we claimed that we were paying an enormous price for the present union with Lower Canada, and that we urged this as one reason why we were entitled to the concession of repreaentation by population as an act of justice, that we might have our due share of infiuence in controlling the expenditure of the revenues of the country to which we contributed ao largely. We com plained, and it was advanced in this Assembly over and over again, as one of the reasons for demanding representation by population, that our money waa given away to aections which contributed little or nothing to the general re venue ; that whUe we paid seventy per cent. of the revenue and Lower Canada only thirty per cent., an equal proportion of the expen diture was enjoyed by Lower Canada; and that under this system Upper Canada was paying not only for its own looal improvements 678 and sustaining not only the cost of carrying on its o-wn local affairs, but contributing largely as well to the local wants of Lower Canada. (Hear, hear.) Now, it was in re ference to these local matters that the evil was chiefly felt and that complainta were louder than witb reference to general expen diture, for they were tangible grievances, things that were easily understood, and that presented themselves as an injustice every year in the estimates presented to this House. There was a sum of two millions, or more voted every year for the support of looal in terests and to promote local works or improve ments, including such items as the support of education, hospitals and charities, and the opening up of colonization roads ; and of this sum one-half was applied to local purposes in Lower Canada. Now, our argument was, that of this money taken out of the public cheat, Upper Canada contributed seventy per cent., and Lower Canada the remainder. If this was true — and I thiuk it waa incontrovertibly ao — then it waa perfectly clear that we in Upper Canada had to pay not only the appropriationa made for looal pur poses in that section, but also nearly one-half of the appropriationa for looal purpoaea in Lower Canada. Let me remark here that I do not think any man will complain that we in Upper Canada are paying thia large portion of the public revenue. Under our ayatem of indirect taxation, or indeed under any ayatem, it must be that the richeat part of the com munity ahall bear the largest ahare of the public burdena, and they have a right to do so. I do not complain that the people of Upper Canada pay a larger amount of the revenue of the country than those of Lower Canada, becauae if they choose to conaume the imported articlea upon which dutiea are le-yied, they do ao becauae they are able to pay for them. They are not required to conaume them, but if they do, and aie made to pay indirectly to the public exchequer, they have no right to complain that the people of Lower Canada, more frugal and economical, consume leaa dutiable gooda and therefore contribute leas to the revenue. We in Upper Canada do not complain of this, but we give it aa a reaaon why we ahould have our juat ahare of influence in the legialature and government ofthe country. We do not argue that because we contribute more we ought to have a larger representation than Lower Canada ; but we say that if we really do pay more to the public exchequer, it is an additional reason — our population being greater — that we should have an equal voice with Lower Canada, in propor tion to our numbers, in controlling the expen diture of the country. (Hear, hear.) Well, this being the case that Upper Canada con tributes the largest share of the revenue, it is perfectly clear to my mind — and I think it will be to that of any man who examines the subject intelligently — that Upper Canada pays to Lower Canada, under our present system, a considerable sum of money, amounting to half a mUlion of dollars yearly, for the sup port of its local interests and institutions; and if the honorable member for North On tario will balance the proportion that Upper Canada pays of the eighty cents per head propoaed to be paid to Lower Canada with the amount now paid to it by Upper Canada, he will find that a large aaving will be effected by the plan now propoaed for our acceptance. (Hear, hear.) We have thus, I think, gained by this scheme, not only representation by population, saving ua from tbe imputation of having sacrificed thia principle in order to obtain Confederation, but we have also, by the same measure, gained a substantial redress of the grievances to remove whieh repreaentation by population waa demanded. (Hear, hear.) Not only has a aa-ving of money been effected, but alao a removal from this Legislature of those aubjecta Upon whioh angry, intemperate, and painful diacuaaiona have taken place in timea paat. For these reasona, I think it ia a moat deairable thing that the scbeme should be carried out. (Hear, hear.) It ia marvel- loua how inconsistent some honorable gentle men show themselves to be in their desire to oppose this meaaure. The honorable member for Lotbiniere, apeaking of it from a sectional point of view, has also, I think, exposed him aelf to thia charge. He chargea the Honor able Attorney General Eaat with inconaiafr ency, if not aomething worae, in occupying the poaition he now doea aa affecting the in tereata of Lower Canada, forgetful of bis own relative poaition. He aaid : — _ If the member for South Oxford had earned his popularity by attacking the inatitutiona of Lower Canada through the agitation for repre sentation by population, it might be said of the Hou. Attorney General Bast that he had risen to popularity hy defending or by affecting to defend those institutiona. (Hear, hear.) He had ao well succeeded in obtaining the good graces of the people of thia aection of the province, and in ae curing their confidence, that it wa,a extremely difficult for any of thoae who were politically op posed to him to attempt to speak in the interesta of their fellow-countrymen. (Hear, hear.) The hon. member for South Oxford (Hon. 679 Mr. Brq-Wn) is here represented as having earned his popularity by attacking the insti tutions of Lower Canada, and the honorable member for Montreal East (Hon. Mr. Car- tier) as having earned his by defending these same institutions, and the insinuation is that he has now abandoned the defence of these institutions and handed them over to the ten der mercies of the Honorable President of the Council. Let me ask the honorable mem ber for Lotbiniere, if being in company with the honorable member for South Oxford be evidence of hostility to the institutions of Lower Canada, how he explains his own po sition, and that of his party, when they cast in their lot with the honorable member for South Oxford, while earning his popularity by, as he says, attacking the institutions of Lower Canada, and abandoned the Honorable Attorney General East when doing battle in defence of those institutions ? (Hear, hear.) I think the question is one not easily an swered. The honorable gentleman must either have been politically dishonest before, or po litically dishonest now, and he can take either hom of the dilemma he pleases. Mr. JOLY — I never supported the Honor able Attorney General East, and if I have been forced upon the same side as the honor- orable member for South Oxford, it was be cause we were united together in opposition to that honorable gentleman. That was the only bond of union that connected us to gether. On the question of representation by population we were always divided. What I meant in the observation I made, tbat bas been alluded to by the honorable member, is this, that the Honorable President of the Council had gained the position he occupies now by attacking Lower Canada, and the Honorable Attorney General East hia, by as suming to defend it ; and when at length they found that the game would no longer answer, when the Honorable President of the Council saw himself excluded forever from a seat in the Ministry if he continued to play it, they banded together, and we now see the result. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) Mr. H. MACKENZIE— At aU events, BIr. Speaker, the hon. member makes it clear that he has changed sides. For when the Hon Attorney General East was defending the institutions of Lower Canada, he opposed him, and now he opposes him because he says he has adopted the contrary policy. Mr. JOLY — I opposed him for other reasons — not for that reason. Mr. H. MACKENZIE— At aU events the hon. member has contributed his mite to the influence the hon. member for South Oxford had in this House, by attacking, as he declares, the inatitutiona of Lower Canada. I have already said that all parties are not satisfied with this scheme; and while on this point, I wish to allude for a moment to the constitution of the Legislative Council. It is the only reference I shall make on this branch of the subject. When addressing my constituents, I took exception to this portion of the resolutions. 1 did so, not because I cared very much whether we had in this country a Legislative Council nomi nated by the Crown or elected by tho people, but, the nominative system having been superseded by the elective, I preferred to have it as it was. It was in these terms that I spoke to the people. After having ad dressed one or two meetings, I saw the despatch of the Colonial Secretary, and I noticed that this matter of the constitution of the Council was pointed out as one which required revision ; and I took it for granted that communications would be opened be tween the several Colonial Governments such as would possibly lead to a change. Doubtless there are sufficient reaaons why this has not been done. But, although I would have liked it to have been so, and although it would have concurred more closely with the views of Upper Canada, I do not think it of sufficient importance to warrant me in reject ing the scherae on that account. (Hear, hear.) If it involves the rejection of the whole scheme, I do not feel myself warranted in pressing tor an amendment on the point. (Hear.) In framing a constitution of this kind, everybody must be aware that an agreement could never have been arrived at except on the principle oi compromise and concession. It is perfectly useless — itis worse thau useless — to suppose that any of the several sections of a wide-spread territory could come together with a view to the formation of a union among themselves, unless each one of these sections was prepared to sacrifice and give up something. What right, I would ask, had we to expect that all the other colonies would agree to the views of Upper Canada, or to the views of Canada as a whole ? What right had we to expect that the Province of Nova Scotia would agree with ua in our views with reference to every particular matter ? What right had we iu Upper Canada to expect that in framing this scheme we would be able to expunge the separate school clauses from the School Act ? If that could 680 be done, it would no doubt be agreeable to the people of Upper Canada, becauae we think that in our Comraon School syatem there should be no element of sectarianism. As a people, we are desirous of having our School law without any provision for separate schools. It is perhapa a bold atatement to make, but I believe the people of Upper Canada as a whole, Roman Catholics as well as Proteatants, would be content with our school system without a particle of aectarian- iam in it. We could acarcely expect that if we were to succeed in framing a basis of union under a new Constitution, we could get the sectarian clauaea of the School Act removed, if they were inaiated upon as sine qua non by the Roman Catholics in Lower Canada in conjunction with the adherents of the aame faith in Upper Canada. But not withatanding tbia, although it ia a senaitive point in Upper Canada, and particularly among my own conatituenta, I venture to say that the people of the weat generally, in their willingneaa at all timea to listen to reaaon, will be quite content to accept the scheme as a whole, as it has been preaented to ua. (Hear, hear.) I hope that no attempt will be made to increase the pri vilegea of the advocatea of aeparate achoola, but that the question will be left where we now find it. (tiear, hear.) It ia worth while, perhapa, to read a single passage, written by a distinguished man, in reference to this principle of conceasion. I have already instanced the views of framera -of the American Constitution when they set to work to do away with the first Federation acheme and to adopt a new Con stitution. When they had framed the new Constitution, we find Washington accom panying the document with a letter, in which this paaaage occura : — It ia ohvioualy impracticable in the Federal Governmeut of these atatea to aecure all rio-fita of independent sovereignty to each, and yet provide for the interest and safety of all. Individuals entering into society must give up a ahare of liberty to pieserve the rest. The magnitude of the sacrifice must depend as well on situation aud circumstances as ou the object to be attained. It is al all times difficult to draw with precision the line hetween thoae rights which must be sur rendered and thoae which may be reserved. Doubtleaa, sir, the members of the Quebec Conference encountered the same difficulties as the framers ofthe American Constitution did. They must have found it difficult to draw the line exactly where it should be drawn. I presume it could not be done, and that each one felt it incumbent upon him to make certain conoesaiona, and that all they could hope to do waa to have some broad margin, some neutral ground, on wbich to draw the line, so as to be able to say they did tbe best they could to unite the sectional interesta of the provinces and to further something like a nationality for the country. (Hear, hear.) I do not deaire to treapaas upon tbe Houae ; I have purposely paased over much that I intended to have aaid, had the Government deaired to encourr go dia cuaaion at greater length ; and I paas on rapidly to a concluaion. (Criea of " Go on !") I think the union desirable, not only aa a benefit to ouraelvea, but aa a meana for con- aolidating the Britiah Empire on thia conti nent, and to aave ua from a degrading dependency on the United States, eapecially aa we have the meana within ouraelves of making them to a certain extent dependent upon ua. Look at the map of thia country, look at the poaition we occupy geographic ally ; see the outlet we possess to the ocean ; look at the magnificent St. Lawrence, with the vast grain growing country beyond it. Is it not in our power to draw the trade of the Great West through thia ita natural outlet to the ocean ? Ia it not poasible to so improve this channel as to bring the produce of the great Weatern Statea to market through our territory ? Is it not poaaible, by meana of a little judioioua outlay, to make the people of the United Statea dependent on ua, inatead of ua being dependent on them? (Hear, hear.) There ia much that could be aaid on this sub ject, and the meana that might be reaorted to for aecuring to ua theae benefita of trade and commerce. It is not so much to the en largement of the Welland and St. Lawrence canala, although that ia neceasary, as to the construction of a ahip canal to Lake Huron through the Ottawa country, that in my opinion we muat look for the ultimate com mercial greatneaa of thia country, aa furniah- mg the ahortest and aafeat route for the conveyance of the contents of the great granaries of the west to foreign markets. The proposed Ottawa canal may not run through a oountry as fertile as the valley of the St Lawrence; it ia of a different geolo gical formation ; nevertheleaa, I beUeve it to be a country of great riches, whoae re sources are as yet undeveloped. I think that 681 a ship canal from Georgian Bay in that direction would not only furnish a satisfac tory outlet for the produce of the west, but would lead to a splendid market for the lum ber trade, and find employment for a class of vessels to whioh we cannot at present give profitable occupation ; and, besides, it would open a channel for such vessels and imple ments of war as may be necessary for the defence of the country, (Hear, hear.) I would conclude by saying that I think union desirable, not only because of ita preaent ad vantages, but on account of our future pros pects. Looking at the future, I do not think it desirable that one government should exer cise sway over the whole of the North Ameri can continent. (Hear, hear.) Nor do I think it desirable that such a government should be a republican government. (Hear, hear.) Taking this view of the case ; looking back to the history of the past; reflecting upon the evils which have followed hasty constitution-making, and the troubles that have occurred in consequence of blundering at the outset, it becomes us to consider whether the scheme which has now been laid before us has in it the elements of stability. I think it has, so far as human foresight can determine. (Hear, hear.) Geo graphically this country covers a vaat extent of territory. We can lean our backs on the anowa of the north, and from that quarter no enemy 3an attack ua ; and if we have no great breadth from north to aouth, we have a large expanae westwards. Although, too, we are in a northern clime, although our latitude is higher than that of our southern neighbor, yet this is no obstacle to the growth of population or to the increase of pros perity. (Hear, hear.) Teeming mUlions will in future inhabit this land, and we are called upon now to lay deep and broad the foundations of a great empire. Let us shew that we value the free inatitu tions of Britain transplanted to this soil ; institutions founded upon principles of freedom and universal toleration; institutions that have made the parent land great, and that mark it out as the one bright spot in the old world to which the eyes of the nations turn when their liberties are im perilled, and as the city of refuge towhich crowned heads, as well as the victims of their misrule, can alike flee for safety in the hour of their misfortune. (Hear, hear.) I have no hesitation, Mr. Speaker, in en dorsing the scheme before us. I do so 87 because I believe its leading principles are in harmony with the principles upon which the British constitutional system is founded, and because I think it ia a fair arrangement between all the provinoes; and, as an Upper Canadian, I accept it because I think it concedes to us the status we are entitled to occupy. I acoept it, further, because of the prospect it holds out to us of building up a great nationality here, and of handing down to our children institutions which our fathers have bought with their blood. (Loud cheers. ) Mr. M. C. CAMERON— I wish to ahew the honorable member for North Oxford the figurea upon which I have baaed my calcula tion. I find that under the scheme — The Federal aid to Lower Canada ia $ 888,531 do do Upper Canada. . 1,117,590 $2,006,121 Of the aid to Lower Canada — The Maritime Provinces contribute, say l-5th ^ $ 177,706 Upper Canada contributes |rda of the balance, or 47.3,884 Lower Canada contributea |rd do 236,941 $888,531 Of the aid to Upper Canada — The Maritime Provincea contribute, aay l-5th $ 223,514 Lower Canada, |rd of balance 298,025 Upper Canada, |rds do. 596,051 $1,117,590 Contribution by U.C. to L.C $473,884 do by L.C. to U.C 298,025 $175,859 Expenaes of General Government. .$8,553,379 Contribution by Mar. Pro. according to Mr. Galt. $1,929,272 Contribution by L. C, at |rd of balance 2,208,035 Contribution byU. C, at |rda of balance 4,416,072 r $8,553,379 U. C. in exceaa of Mar. Prov $2,486,800 U. C. in excesa of L. C 2,208,035 U. C. in excesa of both $ 278,765 Thia aum divided by 17, the additional repre aentativea to Upper Cauada, makea the coat of each $16,397 annually. 682 Hon. Mr. DORION— Mr. Speaker, the intelligence received from New Brunawick since the last sitting has caused the question of Confederation, now under discussion, to loae muoh of ita intereat. Every one ia now convinced tbat it ia a queation whicii no longer haa any real existence, and whieh may safely be ahelved for aorae time to come at all eventa. I deem it, however, to be my duty to make a few obaer?ations in reply to the hon. raeraber for Bl ontraorenoy, and to allude in paasing to the apeech of the Hon. Solicitor General East (Honorable BIr. Lange-VIN). The honorable member for Blontmoreucy began hia speech by aaying that the members of thla House ou^ht to raiae their viewa above all paltry conaid erationa of a peraonal or party character, and diacuaa the queation of Confederatiou upon ita own merita, that thereby its advan tagea or diaadvantagea might be made ap parent. Aod yet the houorable member haa devoted at leaat one-third of hia speech to calling to mind and diacuaaing what I may or may not have aaid iu past timea. I have already said, aud I repeat it, that I defy any member of thia House to cite a single passage from any one of my speeches, or oue single line of anything 1 raay have ever written, to prove that I have ever been iu favor of a Confederation of the Britiah North American Provincea. In order to produce a aemblance of proof, and with tne view of making me contradict myself, it haa been neceasary to torture my worda, to falaify my apeechea, to make falae tranalationa of them ; and even then with all the skill that haa been uaed, the attempt haa been unaucceaaful. The apeech which haa been quoted with the greatest complacency, to ahjw that I was in favor of the Confederation of all the provincea, ia that which I delivered on the 3rd Blay, 1860. Thia apeech, which occupied nearly two houra in ita delivery, was reported iu about twenty-five lines of the Mnming Chronicle, and only occupied a column in the Mirror of Parlia>nent. Theae two re porta are corapletely at variance one with the other, and neither of them ia exact; but they are aufficient, nevertheleaa, to estab lish the contrary of what it has been tried to prove. When it was desired to shew that I was in favor of representation baaed upon population, a part of the report in the Mirror haa been cited, and when it is sought to estabhsh that 1 waa in favor of Confederation, tbe report of the Chronicle ia triumphantly brought forward. But the portion of the Mirror report, which ia cited in relation to repreaentation, ia so absurd that it suffioes to read it to be convinced that I could never have made use of the expres aiona which it containa. For inatsnce, on the o.caaion of a diacuaaion which_ haa but an incidental relation to representation baaed on population, but which relatea to a Con federation of the two provincea, I am made to say that I have alwaya been opposed to representation by population, but that if Upper Canada deaired to have it, that I waa ready to concede it. Thia ia nearly the contrary of what I aaid oo that occaaion, for I invariably raake my apeechea coincide with my votea ; and as I have invariably voted against every propoaition tending to tbe conceasion of repreaentation based upon population, so I have never declared that I was in favor of that measure, but on the contrary, I have alwaya declared that Lower d Canada could never conaent to auch a propoaition, becauae it offered no guarantee for her inatitutions. (Hear, hear ) _ But now that the question of Confederation is under discuaaion, the 3Iirr„r report is set aside and that of the Chronicle is quoted. Thia report made me aay, in aubatance, that I looked upon the Federal union of Upper and Jjower Canada as the nucleus of the great Confederation of the Britiah North American Provinces, that every one foreaaw muat sooner or later be effected. The expreaaion uaed in the report ia " to which all looked forward." The hon. member for Blontmoreucy, who haa brought this report to light, although he could not be ignorant that an entirely different one waa contained in the Mirror of Parliament, haa given tne text of it by aubatitutiog the word "he" for the word " all," and haa translated it so as to make me aay, in speaking of tbe Confederation of all tbe provinces, " que je I'oppelais de tous mes vceux," and in trans lating thia laat expreaaion into Engliah, in the pamphlet wiitten by him in 1865, he makes me aay, "which (Confederation) I' atrongly deaire to see." It is enough to read the report in the Mirror, imperfect though it be, to ahew that I never said anything of tbe kind. Thia is what I said in apeaking of Confederatiou : — He urged that the principle of the double ma jority could only be applied by giving to each aection of the province the control of ita local affairs, and that when populations differed so 683 much as did those of Upper and Lower Canada, it was the only way to govern them in a satisfac tory manner. He hoped, however, that a time might coma when it would be desirable to effect a Confederation with the Lower Provincea, but the time had not yet arrived for a meaaure of thia kind. ..... • But thoae .who were iu favor of a Fede ral union of all the provincea ought to bear in mind that a Federal union between Upper and Lowec Cauada waa the beat meana of establishing a nucleus around which the great Confederation might be formed when the proper time arrived. If in this citation the word " believed" were substituted for tbe word " hoped," my idea would be correctly given, in very nearly the language I made use of in May, 1860. As is q-aite clear, there is a great difference be tween wbat I said and the report given by the Clironicle, which tbe hon. member for Montmorency haa been obliged to diaguise in citing it, and which he haa tranalated in the moat absurd manner, and all to make it appear that I bad expressed myaelf in a manner favorable to Confederation, and thereby ahew that I have contradicted my self. That I may have declared that at some future period, when the population of the different provincea ahould have ao increased as to render the settlements contiguous, when the means of communication ahould have been improved, and wben, by oommercial in tercourae, our intereats should have become identical, and the different populationa should constitute, ao to apeak, one united pe-iple, it might be of advantage to bave a Confederation of all the provinces, thia lam quite willing to admit; but there ia a groat difference between thia anticipation and the expreaaion ofa deaire for a Confederation to which I have alwaya been opposed, becauae I did not consider it advisable under preaent circumatancea. I find no change in the cir cumstancea of the country to lead me now to deaire what I expreaaed my disap proval of in 1860. I again aaaert that I no more pronounced myself in favor of Confederation then than I have since ; only apeaking of a propoaition for establish ing a Confederation of the two Canadas, and after several members had spoken in favor of a Confederation of all the provinces, I made use of the very natural argument, "That for those who deaired the great Confederation, there could be no objection to the proposition then under consideration, because that Confederation would be the nucleus around which the other provinces might gather when the proper time arrived." The hon. member for Montmorency has spoken ofthe contradictions which he has imagined to exiat between the opiniona which I expreaaed in 1856, 1858 and 1860, and thoae which I entertain at the preaent time on the aubject ofthe Confederation of the provincea. But theae contradictiona do not really exiat. I have never expreaaed an opinion in favor of a Confederation of all the provinces, but of the two Canadas only, aud that Confederation to which I would have agreed as a remedy for tbe difficulties created by the question of the repreaentation, had no reaemblance what ever to that which ia now propoaed to ua. By that plan Lower Canada would have had coraplete control of all her local affaira ; under the preaent scheme her control is surrounded by so many reatriotiona, that in fact it ia the central government which has the control, not on y of what relates to all the provincea, but also of what may relate to one of the provincea only. (Hear, hear.) Before speaking of contradictiona, the hon. member lor Montmorency ought to bear in mind that he ia more vulnerable on this head than any one elae. He ought to remember hia two pamphleta — one publiahed in 1858, and the other in 1865 ; one going to prove the abaurdity of a Confederation of all the Britiah North American Provinces, and the other pointing out tho advantages we ahould derive Irom auch a Confederation. In the first of theae pamphlets the hon. mem ber, after having propoaed27 queationa witha view to examine uuder all ita different aspects the queation of a Federal union of the two Canadaa and that of a Federal or Legialative union of all the provincea, rejecta alike both these projects, because he only aaw in them the.annihilation of Lower Canada. The hon. men.' ber waa ao thoroughly convinced of that, that of all the propoaitiona he gave the preference to a legialative union, becauae it would come to an end all the aooner. He found it more logical, looking at the imme diate reaulta of the union. " In fact, if we muat have a union of aome kind of all the provinces, and if Lower Canada is destined to lose the little influence which she yet exer cises on legialation under the exiating union, it would be better to attain our object by a machinery more siraple, leaa complicated and less costly." And a little further on he adds, " As far as we are concerned, we are opposed to it. We want no union under any form, as it is certain to attain the samo 684 end, no matter under what form it may be imposed upon ua." That is the concluaion at which the hon. member arrived in 1858, after a careful examination of the whole question. In 1865, mattera are completely changed, and the hon. member haa diacover ed that the only poaaible aafety for Lower Canada ia to be found in that very Con federation of all the provincea wbich he rejected with all his might in 1858. Thia is the concluaion at which he arrived in hia lateat pamphlet. " After having carefully considered the various achemea of union with their varioua conditiona of existence we, have proved that Confederation waa, in our preaent circumatancea, the syatem beat calcu lated for our protection and for aecuring our proaperity in the future." The hon. member for Montmorency explaina this coraplete change in hia viewa since 1858, aa followa : — Until lately we admit we were more in favor of a Confederation of the two Canadas than of the grander acheme, because then we had no national aspirations, and we believed that we should find in it more protection for the interests of Lower Canada. We acted aa though we had to deal with present or probable enemies, and like a good tactician we desired to have as few enemies arrayed against us as posaible ; but sirce our constant communications during the sittings of the Convention with the eminent statesmen ofthe Atlantic Provinces, many of these apprehensions, and indeed the motives of opposition, have heen dispelled from our mind. So that the mere contact which the hon. member enjoyed with the political men of the Maritime Provincea, during the fifteen daya they were here, haa been aufficient to diapel all hia apprehenaiona for the fate ofthe institutiona of Lower Canada in the Con federation of all the provincea. It ia the confidence with which theae gentlemeo have inapired him, and not the guaranteea offered by the plan of Confederation, which have changed hia opinions of 1858. I find in the Journal de Quebec, a newapaper edited by the honorable member for Montmorency, a few very amuaing paasages upon the question of the confidence which ought to be repoaed in political frienda. Theae articles also date from 1858. The honorable member waa then in oppoaition. It is true that he did not look at the honorable member for South Oxford and myself in such an unfavorable light as he has since done. At that time he was laying the whip pretty severely upon the shoulders of his present friends. But the doctrines he then held appear to be still applicable. On the 26th of August, 1858, the honorable member wrote an article under the heading " Les Amis les Ennemis," in which he said : — The friends, the ministerial supporters from Upper Canada, have endeavored, during the present session, to impose upon us representation based upon population, and the abolition of sepa rate schools. A minister, Mr. Smith, even voted for representation based on population ! The enemies — the membera of the Oppoaition — have left the initiative of these odious mattera to be taken by our friends the ministerialists ; and moreover, to prove that though they were ene mies, they would treat us better than our frienda the ministerialista, they were willing to pay the seigniors all the casual rights due by the eensi- tairea (£500,000). After that we do not ask too much when we ask that our enemies may have justice And a little further on he adda : — Mr. Cartier galvanises a corpse, whioh starts up in its hideousness only to fall back never to riae again. The lamp in going out casta aome few pale and feeble raya, and soon we ahall have the darkness of night. The daya of the very worat government which haa ever weighed down the deatiniea of Canada are numbered. There are not many of them, and all the le-conatructiona that are possible will not add one to their number. On the 28th Auguat, in an article on representation based on population, the hon. member for Montmorency expressed himself aa followa :— But frienda may do anything they like ; what ever they do ia weU done I Mr. Fergubon. a miniaterialist, will demand the abolition of separate schools; he is a Jriend; one must have confidence in him and kiss the Orange hand which strikes the blow. Mr. Malcolm Cameron will ask for representation by population ; he is anotherfriend, and Mr. Bro-wn is the criminal, Mr. Brown ia the enemy. The Administration, for the first time in our parliamentary annals, makes the question of the representation an open question. The Ministry is composed of ten of our most ardent and loyal frienda ; wiU they deceive aud betray us ? Mr. Smith, the first among ihem, votes in the face of astonished Lower Canada for representation hy population. He ia an Orangeman, one of our kindest friends, and of courae in hia extreme friendship it is his duty so to vote. The mem bers from Lower Canada ought to accept all this and they have accepted it with gratitude 1 But for a rouge--an enemy-to aeek even the tenth part of all thia, is odious, it is immoral, it ia to aap the foundation of the country, it is to deaerve the ahame and death of Calvary. Aud would you believe it 7 — all this indignation is expended for the benefit of a power which haa soUed, blemish- 685 ed and corrupted everything in the order of morality and political integrity. The hon. member for Montmorency then proceeded to speak of hia preaent friends, and of the excuses offered by the Ministe rial supporters for blindly voting for and approving whatever their friends desired them to vote for. Did au Orangeman de mand anything at which their Catholic con sciences might take alarm, their consciences were soon quieted by the fact that " it was a friend," and the Orangeman obtained at once what he sought ; and the hon. member for Montmorency declared that all this had been done by a power whioh had soiled and corrupted everything in the order of morality and political integrity. Now, he heartily approves of all that he then held to be abomin able and atrocious, so long as it was pro posed by his friends. Then he was opposed to Confederation of any kind, because it was a certain means of obliterating the influence of Lower Canada, and he preferred a legis lative union to a Confederation. But now his friends propose a Confederation of all the provinces, and he heartily approves of it. I quote again from what he said on the 28th August, 1858 :— During thia aeasion Confederation was found to be so unpopular, that Mr. Galt did not dare to ask a vote on hia informal reaolutiona. But hardly had he obtained power and hia viewa were triumphant, and Canada ia to bow her head to a new order of thinga which an instant be fore had been considered replete with danger and ruin. The policy of the Government aa regarda Confederation ia not more defined or tangible than that of Mr. Galt on the aame subject, and yet the men who, two daya before, furioualy demanded that Mesara. Brown and Dobion ahould give explicit explanations, accept it with confidence and with cloaed eyea, doubtleaa because it came from their friends and friend Galt. Friendship haa the power of tranaforming principlea and things, good into evil and evil into good, im- moraUty into morality, injuatice into justice, and consciences into inert machines, bending to the movement given to it by the firm hand of frienda. I quote from the paper of the hou. mem ber for Blontmoreucy. — I do not aay this myself: — More than thia, the Miniatry take upon them selvea to make a Conatitution for the people, and to change the condition of Canada without con aulting them, without taking the trouble even of telling them what they are going to do for them. Not leaa than four membera of the Government, they aay, are going to negotiate our deatiniea either in Downing-atreet or in Lom- bard-atreet, but moat probably in the latter. If Confederation auits the ideas of the Grand Trunk, depend upon it we shall have it, even though the whole of Canada should reject it. The Journal asks what will become of the French element in the Coufederation. Eh! grand Dieu, you may aee ita fate already iu the fact that out of four Ministers aent to negotiate the transformation, uot a aingle one ia French, the happy individuala heing Meaars. Galt, Roaa, Macdonald and Roas. At that time the enemiea, that ia to aay the present frienda of the hon. member, were deairoua of changing the Constitution with out consulting the people, and he considered that an atrocity ; but now they propose to effect a revolution in our political institu tions without giving the people an opportu nity of pronouncing on their scheme, and the hon. member for Montmorency warmly approves. It seems, when the other day I asserted that this acheme of Confederation waa planned by the Grand Trunk Company, that I did but expreaa the opinion of the hon. member for Montmorency, ft waa he who firat made thia aaaertion, and not I. " If the Grand Trunk," aaid he, " wantf Gonfederation, we are aure to have it." In thoae daya his friends the enemies desired to sell the country ; now he seeks to save it by exactly the same means that they took to ruin it. Now he no longer seeks to ascer tain whether the plan of Confederation is good or bad ; he only looks to see that it comes from his friends,and thatis sufficient to secure for it his hearty approval. This acheme be ing propoaed by the friends and aupportera of good principlea, it cannot contain anything that may endanger the institutions of Lower Canada. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) But formerly it waa quite a different matter, when the same scheme was proposed by enemies, the present friends of the honorable member for Montmorency. What constitutes the excel lence of tbis scheme in the eyes of tbe honor able member, is that it is not submitted by rouges or annexationists, but by the represen - tatives of good principles, the guardians of the interests of Lower Canada. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) Besides, the delegates from the Lower Provinces, whom he had looked upon as eneiuies to Lower Canada, inspired him with such confidence during the dinners and balls of tbe Conference, as to have removed any appre hensions under which the honorable member might before have labored. He told us so himself. For my part I do not believe that the communication which the honorable mem ber enjoyed with the delegates from the Lower 686 Provinces during their sojourn here had the effect of changing his opinion on this question. He looked to see from what side the propoai tion came, and aeeing that it came from the side ou whioti hia frienda aat, he waa at once convinced that it contained nothing that could endanger the inatitutiona of Lower Canada. It ia evident that he votea for it with certain ty. In 1858 he reproached thoae membera who, like the honorable meraber for Blont- calm (BIr. Jos, Dufresne), look quietly to see from which side meaaurea come before pro nouncing upon them, with only thinking and acting according to word of command given by the present Blinistera. Has not he also been obliged to write a pamphlet of 150 pages in 1865 to refute the one of forty pages wbich he then wrote? Then he held to be absurd all that was connected, either nearly or remotely, with Confederation ; now he holda everything to be right and per fect ; he ia quite aatiafied, and geta the promiae of all hia membera to vote for the acheme be fore ua without amendment. He throwa hia hat in the air and exclaima — " Let ua vote for Confederation and for our frienda." (Hear, hear, and laughter.) That honorable member may be able to discover contradictiona in my conduct. He aees a mote in hia neighbor's eyes and seeth not the beam in hia own. But let us continue our examination of that pamph let of 1858. It contains most precioua inform ation. At page 15 I find the following pas sage : — The beat possible condition under which Con federation could exist, would be that in which the two chambers would be elected and would both have population as the basis of their num ber, for no oiher system excepting that of having but one chamber only with the number of its merabers based on population, would give us ab solutely one vote in three in the Federal Legis- ture. ''o in 1 858 he found that the best we could hope for, under Confederation, was that we might have two elective chambers, with a nura ber of membera proportioned to the popula tion in each province, which would have given ua one vote in three. It waa the elective syatem, with repreaentation baaed on popu lation in each chamber. In view of the Con federation of all the provincea, that plan waa decidedly better than the one now propoaed to ua, in which Lower Canada ia only to have 65 out of 194 in the Lower Houae, and 24 out of 76 in the Legislative Council, leas than the proportion which we should have had under the elective system, without taking into account, that as the legislative council lors are to be appointed by the General Gov ernment, Lower Canada will exercise but little influence as regards tbe appointment of her councillors. But let us see what the hon orable member for Blontmoreucy now thinks ofthe elective system. Alter having, in 1856, hiraself brought in the bill to render the Legialative Council elective, and having thus done more than anyone else to effect the change which then took place in the eonsti tution of that body, and after having, in 1858, declared in writing that " the beat pos sible terms that could be obtained in Confed eration would be the making of tbe two chambers elective," in 1865 he says, at page 65 of hia aecond pamphlet : — It was in obedience to the general sentiment, and not by conviction, that he who now writes gave up, m 185-', an opinion which he had al-ways held, and himself drafted the present constitution ofthe Legislative Council, and it is with genuine satisfaction, and a conviction strengthened by experience, that we greet the revival of the principle of Crown nomination to the Legislative Coancil under conditions superior to those of former times. It would aeem, then, tbat in 1856 the honor able meraber altered the Conatitution, not as the result of conviction, and becauae he con sidered it waa defective, but in obedience to the general aentiment; that in to say, that being a Blinister^ he did not wiah to diaplease his frienda, who demanded that this change ahould be made, and that, rather than sacrifice his portfolio as a Minister, he preferred to sacrifice his principles and convictions. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) Now, the honorable member haa no other aaciiflce to make than that of hia peraonal dignity ; tbia ia but a trifling one ; and he returna to hia old opiniona, 80 aa not to diapleaae hia preaent frienda. He clung to power in 1856 ; to-day he pays homage to it; that is the whole difference. When the wind blew in the direction of re form, the honorable meraber was a Reformer, not from conviction but from interest ; and when it blows in the direction of absolutiam, the honorable member becomea by instinct a Conaervative and a Tory. So he who, in 1856, obtained the passing of an act to render the Council elective ; who, in 1858, again pro nounced himself in favor of the elective prin ciple as applied to the Council, tells us in 1865 that he greets with genuine satisfaction the revival of the principle of Crown nomination of the Legislative Councillors. (Hear, hear.) Ministers went on their knees to the Lower 687 Provinces beseeching them to come to an understanding aa regarded a change of the Constitution, and with respect to a scheme of Confederation. Explanations were the result, which have only been given on a few impor tant points ; the delegates of the Lower Pro vinces, after having obtained the most favor able financial stipulations for those whom they represented, have still further imposed their views and have modified the scheme of Con federation in a manner at variance with the views of our Ministers; and yet, after the Mari time Provinces have repudiated the action of their delegates, the Governraent still obstin ately persiats in obtaining the adoption of the scheme without any amendment whataoever. If that reaolution p.isaes, we shall aak England to change our Conatitution, and to give us one which will not be iu accordance with the ¦views of our ministers, and stiU leas with tbose of the people of this province. But let us aee what the honorable member for Blontmorency said in 1858 oa this subject. I cite from page 12: — To ask England to change the Constitution ia to give her aa opportunity of changing it to suit her own views or those of our enemiea. Nay, more, to ask that we ahould take the firat atep is to 'claim it for all the provinces, it ia to call i.pon them too to say upon what conditiona they will accept the Federal union. But in the conflict of all the';e voicea one only will never be heard from the Imperial Throne, becauae it would be in the French language. It is no prejudice, it is but ths history of our fifty yeara of trial and aorrow. Have circumstances so greatly changed since 1858 ? What has occurred since that period to give the honorable member for Montmorency more confidence now in the justice of England, or in the efficacy of our petitions than he then had ? Is not tbe history of our fifty years of sufferings vivid in the memoriea of all ? When we aaked the Imperial Government to change the conatitution of the Legialative Council, did ttiey not unneceaaarily, and without our having aought it, repeal the clauae which ren dered neceaaary a two-tbirda vote to change the baais of the representation ? That aafe guard of the intereata of Lower Canada waa taken away from us without our knowing, and at the present moment we do not know at whose inatance that clauae of the Union Act was expunged. Have we not similar reason to fear that they may impose on Lower Can ada a new Constitution, with conditions which will encroach upon the rights solemnly guar anteed to us by treaty ? And this is the more probable from the fact that, this soheme having been rejected by the Lower Provinces, England will not be deairoua of enforcing it upon them, and that if it ia adopted by the Iraperial Parliament, it can only be ao adopted with such modifications as will m-ke it applicable to Canada' alone, leaving to the Lower Prov inces the right of accepting it hereafter; and Heaven alone knows what these modifications wiU be, and how they may affect our institu tions. (Hear, hear.) If the Imperial Par liament thinks proper to take up this Consti tution without the acceptance of it by the Blaritime Provinces, it will come back to us, as did tbe answer to tho Addreaa in relation to the Legialative Council, entirely different from the Address we are about to vote. Hon. Mr. EVANTUREL— I thought I underatood, when explanationa were given to-day by the Hon. Atty. Gen. Weat, that the Government intended to lay before Her Majesty the Address to be paaaed by this House, then to ask the advice of the Imperial Government aa to what tbey had better do under the circumatancea, and then return and report to tbe Houae. Hon. Mr. DORION— I enquired, in lan guage aa explicit aa it waa poasible to use, of the Hon. Atty. Gen. West, whether the Government would submit a new Constitution for ratification by the Legislature, and he only replied that the Governraent would aub mit the whole matter to the Iraperial Govern ment, that is to say, the Addreaa to be paaaed by this Houae, and an explanation of the present state of matters in view of the defeat of the scheme of Confederation in the Lower Provinoes. He refused to say that the Gov ernment would come back to the House with the measure. Hon. Attt. Gen. CARTIER— The hon orable meraber for Hochelaga would like to make the Houae believe that it ia the inten tion of the Government to cauae a meaaure to be paaaed by the Imperial Government against the wishes of this House ; but no such conclusion can be drawn from the explana tiona given by my honorable friend tbe Hon. Atty. Gen. Weat. He atated that a deputa tion would go to England, and that they would submit to the Imperial Government the ad dresaea of the two Houaea, containing the plan of Confederation adopted by the delegates of all the provincea, and that they would urge upon the Imperial Government to bring down a measure that should apply to all the prov inces Hon. Mr. LAFRAMBOISE— That is 688 not saying, however, that the new Constitu tion will be submitted to the House on the return of the deputation. (Hear, hear.) Hon. Attt. Gen. CARTIER— Nor is it saying, either, that it is without the consent ofthe House. Hon. Mr. DORION— What I wish to say is, that it is perfectly clear that the' House wUl not be called upon to pronounce upon the new Constitution which is to be given to us, no matter what changea may be introduced into the resolutions on which we are now called upon to vote. (Hear, hear.) The Hon. Atty. Gen. East cannot aay that the Government will aubmit to the House the reault of the advice which they may receive from the Imperial Government. (Hear, hoar.) AU that we can underatand from the Govemment ia, that they will preaa the adoption cf the measure by thia House, and tbat, if they can pasa it, they will aSk the Imperial Government to give ua a Constitution based on these resolutions, and that this Constitution will be impoaed on the country without either the House or the people being called upon to ratify it, even although it be altogether different from the reaolutiona now submitted to us. (Hear, hear.) As in 1856 we saw the clause of the Union Act, which required the concurrence of two-thirds of the members of tbe Houae to authorize a change in tho baaia of the repre sentation, repealed without any application on our part fbr ita repeal, so we shall perhapa aee in thia new Conatitution which ia to be given to ua, that tbe principle of Confederation will have been sacrificed in order that a legisla tive union, pure and simple, may be imposed upon ua. (Hear, hear.) And thia is the more probable now, that itis well known that the Maritime Provinces have repudiated the plan of Confederation in its preaent shape. Hon. Attt. Gen. CARTIER— We shaU make a small Confederation by dividing Can ada into four parts. (Laughter.) That is what the honorable member for Hochelaga promised the honorable member for South Oxford when he formed his Government. There sbould be little men, little pro-vinces, and a little Confederation. (Laughter.) A VOICE — Now-a-days the Government haa only great projecta. Hon. Attt. Gen. CARTIER— Yes ; we propose great measures, and what is more, we carry them. Hon. Mr. DORION— Yet the Honorable Attorney. General has undertaken to grant a little Confederation, and to divide us into little provinces if the grander scheme does not pass, and he has a very fair chance to come back to little matters. (Hear, hear.) The honorable member for Blontmoreucy, after having expressed his opinion with respect to the constitution which ought to be provided for the Legislative Council, in order to the protection of our interests, said in that pamphlet of 1858, on the subject of Con federation :— The object of Confederation ia external pro tection ; it can defend itaelf from enemiea from without, but it could not defend itself againat itself. It was not with a view to aocial improve ment, not to attain a more perfect and complete internal political organization, that the American coloniea and the small statea of Germany, who wiahed to remain independent, had recourae to Confederation ; it waa for mutual protection againat enemiea from without, aud for that only. Now we have England to protect ua, the political Confederation ofthe pro-vincea is therefore abaurd ; But if it be at once abaurd and fatal, why ahould we persist in demanding it ? Theae are the opinions of the honorable member for Montmorency : — Were we to have a Confederation of the pro vinces, they would aoon range themaelvea into two distinct camps ; and if we are to judge of the paat hy the preaent, it is needless to say to what dangera Lower Canada would be exposed. [And a little further on, he adds] : When once we have admitted a principle, not only we have to admit the consequences, but even to suffer them to our ruiu. The conaequencea of Confederation would be the ruin of Lower Canada. The honorable member for Montmorency was convinced that the Confederation of the pro- -vinces could not be effected without having recourae to direct taxation, whioh loomed up conatantly before his eyes — (hear, hear) : — Direct taxation for the maintenance and to carry out the objecta of the local legialaturea, are a neceaaity of the Federal aystem ; and if Lower Canada waa to refuse to tax herself to pay the expenaea of its Government and Legialature, it would be forced into doing it ; bearing in mind the refuaal in daya paat of ita House of Assembly to vote the suppliea, they would treat her aa they did in 1840. Thus the great Confederation, so fatal and absurd, would be the ruin of Lower Canada. Now for a little description of our new friends in the Maritime Provinces : — What advantage can Canada hope to obtain in the conaolidation of the revenues of all the pro vinces ? • » . « Whilst the united revenuea of the four Atlantic provincea hardly reach the aum of four hundred 689 thousand pounds, and whilat not one of theae provincea haa much in the future with the excep tion of New Brunawick, Newfoundland with ita cold climate, ita barren aoil, like that of the north shore of our Lower St. Lawrence, will never be more than a fiahing atation, to which, besides, we have accesa in common with all the other nationa of the world. Nova Scotia ia another fishing ata tion, to which also we have access in common with everyone else. It has no soil fit for cultivation. Ita revenue remaina stationary, or diminiahes like the population of ita capital, Halifax (although aituated at the extremity of one of the moat mag nificent harbora in the world), which, in 1840, had 25,000 inhabitants in its woo-fen houses, and which now affords shelter to fifteen thousand hu man beings only. » » • They are poor, and aeek an alliance with the rich. They have good reason ; were we in their place, we would do the aame. That ia his account of the new alliea he now propoaea to give ua. (Hear, hear, and laugh ter.) And now paaaing to the question of religion, thia ia what we find: — In the existing union the Protestants are slightly the most numeroua, at leaat according to the cenaua of 1860. The proposed union would increase the Proteatant strength, for the very great maj ority of the populations of Nova Scotia and New Brunswick is Protestant, and New foundland, in which Catholicism prevaila, is too poor, both at present and in prospective, with ita Darren aoil, to give any atrength, or even hope, to Catholicism. Protestantism would thus be more powerful in a union of all the provinces than it is now in the exiatino- union of the Canadaa. I think I need aay no more. I think that the reaaona adduced by the honorable mem ber for Montmorency from the French-Cana dian point of view, againat the union of the provinces in 1858, exist at the present day, and that they h-ave greater force now than they had then ; and thia ia the more evident wben we see all tbe members from Upper Canada declare that Confederation is not what they want, but that they would prefer a legislative union. This fact ought to add to our alarm, and convince us of the danger to which we should be exposed by this union. The honorable member for Montmorency now encourages his friends to proceed to England and obtain ita adoption by the Imperial Gov ernment, and its impoaition on the Maritime Provincea as weU as upon Canada. It is an appeal to Great Britain to pass a measure upon the application of the Canadian Govern meut, and to impose it upon the Lower Pro vinces, after making such modifications to it as would satisfy them. The honorable mem ber for Montmorency, animadverting upon a letter which I wrote last autumn to my con • stituenta, in which I asserted that no prece dent existed for a Federal union between mere colonies, has cited, in refutation of my statement, the case of New Zealand. New Zealand is composed of three islands, divided into eleven provinces, each of which possesses a SQrt of municipal council which is called a govemment, just as the municipalities are called provinces. Each province has a head or executive officer, elected by the people, and charged with the carrying out of the laws. The municipal councils have the power of legislating, but their powers are restricted within very narrow limits. They cannot in terfere even with the laws relating to wills and successions, whilst, on the other hand, the Central Government has the right to legislate on all matters affecting the colony. The po litical system of New Zealand is exactly like our county and parish municipal syatem. Our county municipalitiea repreaent the cen tral power, and our pariah municipalitiea re preaent the local governments. Had the hon. member for Blontmoreucy examined the Con stitution of Belgium, he would have seen that there, there are provincea whioh each have a Governor and a Local Parliament, and theae parliamenta have much greater powera than the looal councUs in New Zealand, and aro much more important ; yet no one haa ever ventured to aasert tbat Belgium was a Con federation, although it was divided into pro vinces. Neither is the French Empire a Con federation, although ita departmenta are gov erned by Prifets. ( Hear, hear.) The hon. member for Montmorency haa told ua that our interests would be perfectly protected by the proposed Conatitution. I find that tbo powers assigned to the General Parliament enable it to legislate on all subjects whatso ever. It ia an error to imagine that theae powera are defined and liraited by the 29th clause of the resolutions. Were it desiroua of legislating on subjects placed under the jurisdiction of the local legislatures, there ia not a word in these reaolutions wbich can be conatrued to prevent it, and if the local legis laturea complain. Parliament may tum away and refuse to hear their complaints, because all the sovereignty is vested in the General Government, and there is no authority to de fine its functiona and attributes and those of the looal governments. Hon. Attt. Gen. CARTIER— What do you understand by sovereign power — please explain ? Hon. Mr. DORION— I wiU teU you in a ego moment. I say that the Federal Parliament will exerciae sovereign power, inasmuch as it can always trespaaa upon the righta of fhe looal govemmenta without there being any authority to prevent it. What authority have you constituted whioh can come forward and say to the Federal Parliament — " You shall not do such and such a thing, you shall not legislate upon auch and auch a aubject, because theie matters are reaerved to the local goverainsnts." There will be no such author ity, and consequently it will have aovereign power, and can do all that it pleases, and may encroach upon all tho rights and attributes of the local govemmenta whenever it may think proper. We shall be — I apeak aa a Lower Canadian — we shall be, at ita mercy, because it may exercise ita right of veto on all the legislation of the local parliamenta, and there again via shall have uo remedy. In caae of difference between tho Federal power and the local govcraments, what authority will inter vene ibr ita settlement 'I Hon. Attt. Gen. CARTIER— It wiU be the Imperial Government. Hon. BIr. DORION— In effect there wiU be no other authority than that of the Impe rial Government, and we know too well the value assigned to the complaints of Lower Canadians by the Imperial Government. Hon. Attt. Gen. CARTIER— The dele gatea underatood the matter better than that. Neither the Imperial Government nor the General Governmont will interfere, but fhe courta of justice will decide all questions in relation to which there may be differences between the two powers. A YOICB — Tho Commiaaioners' courts. (Hear, hear.) Ho.N. BIr. DORION— Undoubtedly. One magistrate will decide that a law paased by the Federal Legialature ia not law, whilst another will decide that .it is law, and thua the difference, instead of being between ihe legislatures, will be between the several acourts of juatice. Hon. Attt. Gen. CARTIER— Should the General Legialature pass a law beyond the limits of ita functiona, it wiU be nuU and void pleno jure. Hon. BIr. DORION— Yes, I understand that, and it is doubtless to decide questions of this kind that it is proposed to eatabliah Federal courta. Hon. Attt. Gen. CARTIER— No, no I They will be established solely to apply and adjudicate upon the Federal laws. Hon. BIr. DORION— In Great Britain, Parliament is all-powerful, every one admits it— and I would like to know whether it is proposed to give to the Federal Parliament the omnipotence enjoyed by the Imperial Parlia ment. Without that, the system proposed to be established is no longer a political monar chical system, but rather a vast municipality. If all the courts of justice are to have the right of deciding as to the legality of the laws, the Federal Parliament will not be able to make tbem without a justice of tho peace or commissioner of small causes setting them aside, under the pretext that they are not within the juriadictiou of the central power, aa ia now done in the caae of a procls-verhal of road work. That ia not the monarchical system ; it is the republican system. In Eng land, as it is here at the preaent moment, the Legialature is all-powerful, and I believe that that was the principle whioh it was sought to adopt. If the dift'erenoea between the Fed eral and the Looal Parliamenta are not to be aubmiited to the deciaion of a Supreme Fed eral Court, I do not aee who can poaaibly decide them. (Hear, hear.) We are told that the Federal Court of Appeala wUl not ba charged with tbe deciaion of matters in dis pute between the legialatures, but they will only havo to give final judgmenta in cases de cided by the local inferior courts. Well, for my part I cannot approve of the creation of this court. The great inoonveniences of it to ua Lower Canadiana may easily be seen. Thua, when a cauae shall have been argued and decided in all our courts, we shall still have to go before a Federal Court of Appeal compoaed of judgea of all the provinces, and in which we shall probably have only one judge, who may be selected out of the Eng lish population. And this is the protection afforded to ua. I repeat that I see no protec tion whatever for our interesta, aa Lower Cana diana, in the constitution of the political and judicial powers, for the Federal Parliament can encroach upon our righta -without any authority having the power to interfere, and then we shall have a Federal Court of Appeal in whioh we ahall only be represented by one judge against six or seven of other origins. (Hear, hear.) There is another and very important question to be considered, and that is aa to what is meant by paragraph .30 ofthe 29th resolution, in relation to marriage and divorce. I aee, not without apprehension, that it is left to the General Parliament to legislate on all matters relating to marriage and divorce. The question of marriage is in timately connected with a large portion of our 691 code and civil rights, for upon marriage de pends the settlement of famUy interests and successions, and the civil condition of the population. If the right of legislating on all matters connected with marriage is left to the Federal Parliament, it will have the right to declare that a marriage contract ed elsewhere will be valid in the Confed- acy, provided it has been contracted in accordance with the laws of the country in which it took place, as stated by the Honorable Solicitor General East, for it ia a principle of international law perfectly under stood in every country of the civilized world, and which it would be impossible to alter, and it was of no use whatever to insert it in the Conatitution. I aay, then, that not only will the Federal Govemment have thia power, but they will also be able to change the civil conditions of marriage which now constitute a part of our code. But if it is sought to remove from the local legislatures the right of legislating respecting the conditions under which a marriage may be contracted, the age at whish marriage is to be allowed, the degree of relationship whieh shall be an impediment to marriage, the consent of the relations, and the requisite dispensations which are now required to be obtained from the ecclesiastical authori ties, then I can understand why this article has been inserted in the resolutions, and that the right to do t.li this is to b ; veated in the Federal Parliament. If it is desired that a minor should be allowed to marry, as he can in countries in which the laws of England prevail, without the consent of his relations, lean conceive the reason for placing the right to legislate respecting marriage iu the hands of the Federal power ; but if that was not the object in view, I see no reason why the right to legislate on this subjo -.t has not been left to the local governments. (Hear, hear.) I should see with considerable apprehension and aiarm this power :;iven to the Geneial Pariia ment, because it will be composed of men who have ideas entirely at varii^nce with ours in relation to marriage. Aa regards the ques tion of divorce, we have had every kind_ of explanation as to the meaning of the resolution of the Conference. The Honorable Solicitor General of Lower Canada (Hon. Mr. Lange vin), who last year made so great a fuss because a divorce suit came before the Housa, and who even moved the rejection of the biU at its firot reading, has been brought to terms on the subject, and has discov red that^ it would be a good thing to have an authority for the settlement of this matter. Last year he said that it was impossible for a Calholic to sanction even the first reading of a divorce bill, and hii made us a long speech on the subject, but he has found out his mislake, aud he is unwilling tbat Ihe locil legiJaturo should legislate on divo:ce, but lie vesta this right in the Federal Parliament, aud author izes it to do so. He cannot himself legislate, but he allows another to do so for him. Well, I -do not think that this is any im[irovement ou the existing state of things, and I think that divorce ia more likely ti be prevented by leaving the subject among the functiona of the loca'i legislaturea, at all eventa aa far aa .Lower Canada is concerned, than by leaving it to the Federal Parliament. But I go further, and I say that the leaving of thia queation to the Federal Legislature ia t") in troduce divorce a , ong the Catholics. It is certain that at present no Catholic eould obtain a divorce either in the present House or 1rom the Looal Legislature of Lower Can ada under (Jonfederalion. But suppose that th^ Federal ParliamenI were to enact that there shall be divorce courts in each aeotiou of the province, the Catholics will have tho same ace ss to thom as the Protesiauls. And who is to prevent the Federal Lcgi lature from establis'niog a tribunal of tMs kind in Lower Canada, if t.ey are established else where? In that caso — if tribunals of this kind ar.-; eatablished — will not the Honorable Sohcitor General, if h . votea for this r.ailu tion, have voted fi,r the establishment of divoiee courta over the whole country, to whi'jh Catholics and Proteatants can have recourse for obtaining a divorce 'l That is the only conclusion it ia poaaible to arrive at, and the legitimate consequence of the votea of those Catholics who will vote to vest this power in tho Feleral Parliament. (Hear, hear.) It ia evident that a Catholic who thinka that he oannot vote for a Divorce bill ought not to vote indirectly fbr the eatabUsh- nient of Divorce courta, auy more than to vote directly fbr it. The Honor ble Solicitor General Eaat told ua the other day that he had recently obtained the annulment of a mar riage, becauae the partiea, being relationa, had married without diapensation. Hon. Sol. Gen. LANGEVIN— I never pretended that that was a divorce. I s-iid that if the cise of annulment of marriage to which I referred had arisen in Upper Canada, the Ecclesiastical courts might have deslared the marriage null as far as the cai,on law was concerned, but net as regarded the civil laws, for the law of Upper Canada does not recog- 692 nize the impediments to marriage provided by the Canon law, ar.d that the husband and wife would have been obliged to apply to Parlia ment to obtain their separation. And I stated that this separation could net be looked upon as a divorce from a Catholic point of view, although the Act of Parliament might be called a Divorce biU. Mr. geoffrion— Would ParUament grant a divorce on the ground of relationahip ? Hon. Sol, Gen. LANGEVIN— I can cite other caaea, aa, for inatance, that of a Catholic married to an infidel who had not been bap tized, without being aware at the time of the marriage that thia impediment existed. If he discovers the fact afterwards, he is not married as far as the Canon law is concerned. If the wife is not willing to consent to the obtaining of the necessary dispenaations to render her marriage valid, she may, in Lower Canada, apply to the Eccleaiastical court to have it annulled, but in Upper Canada she would alao have to apply to Parliament. BIr. GEOFFRION— Could a divorce be obtained from Parliament on the ground of relationship ? Hon. Attt. Gen. CARTIER— It would be proved before Parliament that the mar riage contracted under theae circumstances is null as regards the Canon law and tbe law of Lower Canada. There are ecolesiaatical au thoritiea in Upper Canada juat as there are in Lower Canada, but as the Civil law there is not the same aa it is here, the couple whoae marriage would be void under the Canon law but not under the Civil law — for in the eyea of the law the marriage would be valid and binding, and neither husband nor wife could remarry without having obtained a divorce — the couple, I say, would have the right of ap plying to Parliament, who might legally de clare that marriage null which had been so declared by the ecoleaiaatical authorities. But the nullity of the marriage must firat be proved to the aatisfaction of the eccleaiastical authoritiea and under the Canon law, and then Parliament might annul it on that evi dence, for it would be omnipotent. Hon. Mr. DORION— Then the Federal Parliament will be omnipotent ? Hon. Attt. Gen. CARTIER- Yea, in that respect. Hon. BIr. DORION — But even auppoaing that the Federal Parliament would interfere in auch a caae, which ia a matter of doubt, the Local Government would alao have had the right to interfere if the power so to do had been given to it. Moreover, this would not be a case of divorce ; it would simply be the declaration that no marriage had ever taken place, which is quite a different matter. In Lower Canada the Canon law forms part of our Ci-vil law, but in Upper Cauada it is not so, and the law there does not recognize the right of the ecclesiastical authorities to declare a marriage null. (Hear, hear.) I think, then, that the explanation of the Hon. Solicitor General is not of more value than that which he gave us on the subject of mar riage, for it does not in the least prove that the Federal Parliament have not the power to establish Divorce courts in all the pro- -vinces, and the resolution does not admit of the construction that the Federal Parliament will only have the right of declaring void marriagea declared to be so by the Catholic eccleaiaatical authoritiea. (Hear, hear.) I perceive that the aubject of immigration is left to the General Govemment, concurrently with the local govemmenta. I think that danger liea in the proviaion that the General Govemment is to appoint all our judgea. It ia aaid, aa the Honorable Attorney General Eaat stated the other day, that there will be French-Canadians in the Executive of the Federal Government, but their number will be limited, and if the Executive is composed of fifteen members for inatance, there will only be one or two French-Canadiana at the most. Well, suppoae the French-Canadian Bliniatera recommend the appointment of a peraon aa judge, and that all their eoileaguea oppose it, the former will have the right to proteat, but the majority will carry the day, and all that the minority can do will be to retire from the Government. But in that case they will be replaced, and things will go on as bei'ore. That ia aU. The aame argu ment appliea to the appointment of legislative councillora ; and when I call to mind all the injuaticea committed by the Legialative Coun cil of Lower Canada, which waa nominated by the Crown, and in a spirit hostile to the great masa of the population, I cannot con ceive that French-Canadiana can be found who are willing to return to that system. Will they not remember that it was that sys tem which closed our common schools, by re fusing to vote the suppliea granted by the Legialative Aaaembly, and thereby delayed, for yeara and years, the progreas of education in Lower Canada. The hororable member for Blontmorency aaya that wc must have a conaervative chtimber, and th:it our Legisla tive Council, under Confederation, will be less conservative than the Belgian Senate, be- 69S cause the elective qualification of the Belgian senators is higher than that of our legislative counciUors. The Belgian Senate is elected for eight years, and is renewed by one-fourth at a time. Hon.Mr. CAUCHON— Every four years, by one-half. Hon. BIr. DORION— Yea ; the honorable member is right. The term for which each senator is elected is eight years, and the elections take place for one-half of them every four years, and another change in the compo sition of the Senate can also take place, because it may be dissolved like the Lower House. Now, under these circumstances, there can be no clashing of any duration between the two Belgian Chambers, and the Senate oannot obstruct, for an indefinite period, the action of the Lower House. If a difference should arise between the two bodies, the Government can remedy it by new elections, by which senators would be returned favorable fo the views of the people. Thus the Senate is not conservative, from the sole fact of the electoral qualification of the senators being very high. What I consider excessive and of a too conservative character in the constitu tion of the Legialative Council of the Con federation, ia that no power exista whioh can change its compoaition in the case of a col lision between it and the House of Com mons. The councUlors wiU bo appointed for life, and their number is fixed. By what means shall we be able to prevent the Legis lative Council from stopping the progress of business if a difference ahould arise with the Lower Houae ? Tbe honorable member for Montmorency says that the obstacle- will be broken down ; but if no otber remedy than that ia provided, I aay that the principle ia faulty. It does not do, when we frame a Constitution, to open the door to obataclea whioh can only be aurmounted by breaking them down. (Hoar, hear.j In England, where the Houae of Lords ia very conaerva tive, the Crown haa power to name new peera, and it ia preciaely the poaseaaion of that power of creating new peers whioh haa pre vented the breaking down of the obatacle — which prevented a revolution in 1832. The honorable member for Blontmoreucy himaelf admita that at that period England waa on the eve of a revolution, and that it would have happened if the Houae had any longer refuaed to aanotion the meaaurea of reform paaaed by the House of Commons and de manded by the people ; and that revolution was only avoided because the King, having declared that he would create now peers, a certain number of tbe lords, to escape this danger, absented themselves and permitted the passing of the Parliamentary Reform BUl. (Hear, hear.) There are two or three other matters whicii are left to the joint juris diction of the Federal and Looal Legislatures, such as agriculture, emigration, and the fisheries ; but the laws of the Federal Par liament will always prevail in these matters over those of the local parliaments ; thus, for instance, a Local Legislature may pass a law in relation to agriculture, but it may be over ridden the next day by a law of the Federal Legislature. (Hear, hear.) I shall not touch upon the question of the finances, but I muat say that tbe figures given by the Hon. Solicitor General East do not agree with thoae in the Public Accounta. I do not know where he obtained them, but for my part I have been unable to find them. When I enquired whether Lower Canada waa to pay the Blunicipal Loan Fund debt, he did not think proper to anawer. When I asked the Hon. Bliniater of Finance whether Lower Canada wouid be charged with the debt contracted for the redemption of the Seigniorial dues, with the Common School Fund, the Blunicipal Loan Fund, and the in demnity payable to the townships, amount ing in the whole to $4,500,000, he re plied that he would bring down a pro position at some futuie period for the settlement of theae queations, but h^has not thought proper to give any explanations. Well, I have stated that besides the debt of $67,000,000 due by the province, there are more than $3,000,000 due to Upper Canada as compensation for the Seigniorial indemnity, and that in fixing at $62,500,000 tbe debt to be assumed by the Federal Government, there v\Ul remain about $9,000,000 to divide between Upper and Lower Canada. With the amount of the Blunicipal Loan Fund debt and of the other items wbich I have mentioned. Lower Canada wiU find herself charged with a local debt of $4,500,000. (Hear, hear.) When we entered the union we had a debt of $500,000 ; we have expend ed since the union, on public works in Lower Canada, about $13,000,000, aud we go out of the union with a debt of $27,500,000 as our proportion of the Federal debt, beaidea our own apecial debt of $4,500,000, whilst Upper Canada will go out of it without any local debt on giving up the indemnity to which she is entitled under the Seigniorial Act of 1859. Well, I assert that it is an unjust 694. treaty, and that it is also unfair that the Blinistry should refuse us all explanations on this point, before we are called upon to give our votes on the resolutions. (Hear.) The Hon. Solicitor General East told us the other day that in the plan of Confederation whioh I hid proposed for the two Canadas, I intend ed to leave the administration and ownership of the Crown lands to the General Govern ment, and he said that under Confederation the Crown lands would belong to the local govemments, and thia, in hia opinion, was a great improvement on the plan which I pro posed. Well, it must be observed that a very large amount is due on sales of Crown lands ; there is about $1,000,000 due in Lower Can ada, and $5,000,000 or $6,000,000 in Upper Canada. If these landa had remained in the union there would have been about one million from Lower Canada, and five or six millions from Upper Canada towards the payment "of the general debt. We ahould have benefited to that amount by the extinction of ao much of the public debt ; instead of that, under the plan of the Government, Upper Canada ia to liave the benefit of the five or aix milliona due on the landa sold in Upper Canada, whilst Lower Canada will only have one million of dollars at the outside. If it were only the public lands, there would be no injustice in leaving them to the local governments, but the difference in the amounta due on the lands sold gives a considerable advantage to Upper Canada.^ There ia another very aerioua ob jection to tho Constitution of the Legialative CouncU. The honorable member for Blont morency said that the Legislative Council would serve as a protection and safeguard to the interests of the French-Canadians, be cause in it we would have an equality of members with the other provincea. A curi ous equality that will be I Th it of which the honorable member for Blontmorency spoke when he pronounced himself in favor of two elective chambers, becauae in that case we should have one member in three, waa in finitely preferable. In the Lower House we shall not have one member in three, nor shall we in the Upper Houae either, for we shall only have twenty-four councillors out of aev- enty-aix. Thua we shall have equality neither in the Lower Houae nor in the Council. (Hear, hear.) But then the General Gov ernment wUl nominate the councillors, and wc shall be in a ji;i'eat minority in the Ex ecutive CouncU. Another objection is that the nomination of the legislative counciUors on the recommendation of the Executive Coun cil of the General Government, and this offers no guarantee for the inatitutions of Lower Canada, because the predominating influ ence in that Council will not be that of the majority of Lower Canada. To offer an effectual guarantee, it would be neces sary that they should be elected by the peo ple, or, at all events, only appointed on the recommendation of the looal govemments. Theae reaolutions, we are told, are only as it were tbe headings to the chaptera of the new Conatitution, and the new Constitution may be anything elae than what ia now under con aideration. It will come back to us in the form of an Imperial Act, to which we shall have nolentes volentes to submit. (Hoar, hear.) Supposing even that the scheme should not bo modified, I could not approve it. I cannot with a joyful heart give up the imprescriptible rights of the people who have sent me here to repreaent them. I cannot conaent to a change whioh is neither more nor less than a revolution, a political revolution it ia true, but which doea not the les.a, on that account, affect the righta and interesta of a miUion of inhabitants, the deacendanta of the firat aettlera in America, of those who have given their names to the vast regions whioh tbey discovered, and whose careera have been rendered famoua by so many heroic traita. (Hear, hear.) I am opposed to thia Confed eration in whioh the militia, the appointment of the judgea, the administration of juatice and our most important civil rights, will bo under the control of a General Govemment the majority of which will be hostile to Lower Canada, of a General Government invested with the most ample powera, whilat the powers of the local govemmenta will be reatricted, first, by the liraitation of the powers delegated to it, by the veto reserved to tbe central authority, and further, by the concurrent jurisdiction of the general author ity or government. Petitiona, with more than 20,000 aignaturea attached to them, have al ready beeu presented to thia House against the scheme of Confederation. Numerous pub lic meetinga have been held in nineteen countiea in Lower Canada, and one in tbe city of Montreal. Everywhere thia acheme haa been proteated againat, and an appeal to the people demanded ; and yet, iu defiance of the expresaed opiniona of our conatituents, we are about to give them a Conatitution, the effect of which will be to snatch from them the little influence which they still enjoy uuder the existing union. We are about, on their behalf, to aurrender aU the rights and 695 privileges which are dearest to them, and that without consulting them. It would be mad ness — it would be more, it would be a crime. On these grounds I shall oppose this soheme with all the power at my command, and insist that under any circumstances it sball be sub mitted to the people before its final adoption. (Cheers.) ' Hon. BIr. CAUCHON --Mr. Speaker, I received intelligence thia evening that the Hon. member for Hochelaga was about to reply to my speech of the 2nd of March, and thatis v/hy I came here. Otherwise, aa I have not yet quite recovered, I ahould have re mained at homo ; but I frankly acknowledge tbat if I had foreaeen tbat I should bave had to liaten to such a apeech as that which we have juat heard, I ahould not have put myaelf out of the way for ao little. Any one hearing hira apeak muat have aaid : " Either he ia not a very powerful reaaoner, or thia hon. member has but a poor idea of the intelligence of thia Houae and but little respect for hia eoileaguea." But for my two pamphleta and for tbe apeech of the Hon. Solicitor General, which he read and com mented upon aa he knowa how to do, ho would very apeedily have found himaelf aground ; but by deriving aaaistance in the way I have mentioned, lie contrived to find the meana of apeaking for three houra. (Hear, hear.) Ia it necessary for me to repeat that I have never denied the opinions which I held in former daya ? Nor will I deny them to-night. I acknowledge freely that my opinions on certain matters have changed. Of what advantage, then, can it be to him to spend his time in repeating what I admit myself ? If I proved to bim that he had changeil several times himself, I did not do 80 to lay blame upon him, but to reproach him with denying his past ca'reer, in order that he might be more at his eaae in that which he is at present following. (Hear, hear.) But, for that matter, what does it signify to the oountry that he or I held one opinion yesterday and that we hold another to-day ? W bat the country requires to know is whether the soheme of Confeder ation which is submitted to us by the Govern ment is good or bad. (Hear, hear.) The man who declares that he has never changed his opinion on any subject whatever is, to my thinking, a simpleton. The "public re quirements change with circumstances, and necessarily bring with them other ideas. (Hear, hear.) We do not eat when we are no longer hungry, nor drink when our thirst is satisfied. Did the hon. member, for in stance, put in practice, when in power, the doctrine which he enunciated respecting the double majority, when he was seated on the Oppoaition benches ? When the House was engaged in debating a resolution, the object of which was tn affirm the principle of the double majority, the present Hon. President of the Council having got up to say that he would never have governed Upper Canada by means of a Lower Canada majority, the hon. member for Hochelaga rose in his turn to declare tbat he also would never consent to govern in opposition to the will of Lower Canada, And yet, in 1858, did he not enter a Cabinet which waa refuaed by nearly all the members from Lower Canada? Hon. BIr. DORION— I said that at the tirae of the formation ofthe Brown-Dorion Blinistry. I told the Hon. Preaident of the Council (Hon. BIr. Brown) that I would not undertake to carry through the Legisla ture the four great measures which were then in question, without the consent of the majority of the representatives from Lower Canada. Hon. Mr. CAUCHON- Ah, yea ! An excellent reaHon can always be found for retaining power when we have it, in spite of our own declarations. In 1862, did he not form part of a Government situated in the same position ? And from 1863 to 1864 did he not govern Lower Canada -with a rod of iron, supported only by a weak Lower Canadian minority ? Hon. BIr. DORION— The only meaaure paaaod in 1863, that relating to Separate Schools in Upper Canada, was carried by a majority in both provinces. Hon. Mr. CAUCHON— That is not so, as the Upper Canadian majority voted againat tbat bill, whioh owed its aafety to Lower Canadiana only. But it is the prin ciple which ia in queation here, and the hon. member cannot divert the attention of the Houae from that faot. If the double ma jority waa good in one case, it muat be so in all caaea, in legialation aa in administration, but more eapecially in adminiatration, which cannot and ought not to be based on any thing except public opinion. Now, the hon. member for Hochelaga certainly governed his country despite the majority of ita repreaentativea. (Hear, hear.) He haa apoken to us of the petitions presented to this House against the scheme of Confeder- 696 ation, but what do those petitions amount to ? The way in which they were covered with signatures is well known. (Hear, hear.) I shall here cite an anecdote relating to the parliamentary history of Upper Canada, at a period shortly before the Union. A member was talking a great deal about peti tions in a debate upon a bill. "Petitions!" said his opponent, "I will undertake within a fortnight to present a petition to this House praying that you may be hanged, and which shall be covered with good and valid aigna turea !" The challenge waa accepteJ, and at the end of three weeka the petition arri ved, praying for the hanging of the man who had ao much faith in the virtue of petitiona ! How had it been obtained ? By poating at a tavern situated at four croaa-roada a akilful and knowing agent, who inceaaantly said to the frequenters of the tavern — " Do you like good roads ?" " Yes." " Well, then, aign this petition." All aigned, without reading it. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) Exactly in thia manner were obtained moat of the aignatures againat Confederation. At Mont real, agenta went from tavern to tavern and iuduced all who wero there to sign, or signed for those who reaided in the vicinity without even conaulting them. (Hear, hear.) Have we not alao aeen petitions coming from coun tiea in which the Oppoaition were not even able to find candidatea ? They may eaaily obtain aignaturea of thia deacription, and by thia met^ns ; but that does not conatitute an expression ofthe opinion of Lower Canada, and thoae petitions will not carry electiona. Tho hon. member ought to know something about it, he who waa in power at the time of the laat general election. (Hear, hear.) He endeavored to explain away hia contra dictiona by saying that he had never been in favor ot the Confederation of all the pro vincea. I did not atate that he waa in favor of thia Confederation of all the provinces; I only said that he waa willing, aa a member of the Brown-Dorion Government, in 1858, to havo repreaentation baaed on popu lation, with checka, guaranteea and aaaur- ancea; that then, in 1^59, he propoaed as an alternative to that measure, in his Montreal manifeato. Confederation ofthe two Canadaa; aud then, in 1860-'61 he was ready to accept any possible change, even Confedera tion of all British North America. (Hear, hear.) To prove that he was in favor of Confederation of all the provinces, I quoted one of his speeches, in which he said, on the 6th July, 1858 :— The repeal of the union, a Federal union, representation based on population, or some other great change, must of necessity take place, and for my part I am disposed to examine the question of representation based on population, with the view of ascertaining whether it might not be con ceded with guaranteea for the protection of the religion, the language and the lawa ofthe Lower Canadiana. I ara likewiae prepared to take into conaideration the acheme for a Confederation of the provinoes, &c., &c. Then another, of the 3rd May, i860, of whieh I gave two veraions — the first from the Mirror of Parliament, and the second from the Morning Chronicle, to which I was referred as being more authentic and more orthodox by the organ of the hon. meraber for Hochelaga: — I hope, however, that the day will come in which it will be deairable for Canada to federate with the Lower Provinces, &c. * * * Those in favor of a Federal union of the pro vinces muat aee that this propoaed Federation of Upper and Lower Canada ia the beat meana to form a nucleua around which the great Confedera tion of all the provincea could be formed in the course of time. — Mirror of Parliament. I look upon the Federal union of Upper and Lower Canada as the nucleus of the great Con federation of the Provinces of North America to which all look forward. I believe that tirae will bring about the union of all the proviuces. — Morning Chronicle. Could anything be more explicit ? Hon. BIr. DORION— The word ' he " ia not in the report. Hon. BIr. CAUCHON- No; and I cor rected that error the otber night ; but I maintained with reaaon that the worda " to which all look fornard" meant that all peraona directed their attention towards Confederation. Now, if all persons expect Confederation, if ail persona direct their attention towarda it aa towards the promised land, the hon. member for Hochelaga must be included to a araall extent in thia term " all peraona." (Hear, hear.) Did he not, moreover, declare that the Confederation of tho two Canadas, whioh he proposed, waa to be but the nucleua of the great Confeder ation, the neceasary nucleus for the Con federation of all the American Provinces, which we are considering at present ? Hon. BIr. DORION— I did not aay the necessary nucleus. Hon. BIr. CAUGHON-The hon. mem ber always seeks loop-holes by which to escape from his speeches and to evade the consequences of his past opinions ; but as I 697 did not interrupt him, I hope that he will Mt interrupt me either. Did he not say me other day : — Of course I do not aay that I ahall be opposed to their Coufederation for all time to come. Po pulation may extend over the wilderneaa that now lies between the Maritime Provinces and ourselves, and commercial intercourse may in crease sufficiently to render Confederation de sirable. Is not this admitting everything ? Is it not saying that there is nothing between us but a question of time and of expediency ? Why then should he make the opinions of us, the ma jority, such a crime, when he himself arrives, at the end of a four hours' speech, at the con clusion that Confederation will be good or necessary at a time which is more or less near? In his manifesto against the scheme of Con federation he adheres so far to his previous opinions as to consider the scheme which is submitted to us as merely premature. There again, then, it was only a question of time, and in declaring himself to-day opposed to Confederation, he therefore changes his opinion as to the very basis ofthe question. I do not cast it up to him as a reproach ; for, as I said but a minute ago, he who main tains that he has never changed, conveys but a poor opinion of his judgment and of his aptitude for public affairs. Events, in changing, absolutely compel men to change also. (Hear.) A general was once boasting to the great Turenne that he had never committed an error of strategy. " He who boasts that he has never been mistaken," returned Tcrenne, " proves thereby that he knows nothing of the art of war." These words, which are full of wisdom, may be applied to the hon. member for Hochelaga, who, by his persistence in maintaining that he has never contradicted himself nor been mistaken, provea that he is no statesman. (Hear, hear.) But, I say it again, it would have been better for him to lay aaide per sonal queationa. (Hear, hear.) On the 6th July, 1858, he said : — Before long it will become imposaible to reaist the demand of Upper Canada. If representation based on population ia not granted to her now, ahe will infallibly obtain it hereafter, but then without any guarantee for the protection of the French-Canadiana.But to-day he changes his opinion. Then he was willing to grant representation by population, or Confederation based on the same principle. It had to be conceded in 89 order that we might not be carried away by the tempest. But to-day, according to his shewing, the storm no longer impends ; the whole sky is calm and serene ; public opinion in Upper Canada no longer threatens to break asunder the frail bands of the union, and changes are useless. Ah ' and yet we have had as many as three ministerial criaea in one year. (Hear, hear.) He mistakes then ; the difficulties have but increaaed, and it ia better to-day to provide againat the storm, than to be carried away by it at a later period. The greatest wisdom directs its efforts, not to cure the disease, but to prevent it ; this truth ia aa applicable to politica aa it is to medicine. (Hear, hear.) Tbe hon. member for Hochelaga talked to us of conflicts between the Fedeial Parlia ment and the local Houses, and of the sovereign power of the Central Government over the legislatures of fhe provinces. But what, then, is this sovereign power over the attributes of the provincial legialaturea ? If it exists it must be in the Constitution. If it is not to be found there, it is because it does not exist. He says that the Federal Ijegislature will always predominate ; and why ? Who then will decide between the one and the others ? — the judicial tribunals being sworn to respect the laws and the Constitution in their entirety, and charged by the very nature of their functions to declare whether such a law of the Federal Parliament or of the local legislatures does or does not affect the Constitution. (Hear, h.-ar.) There will be no absolute sovereign power, each legislature having its distinct and independent attributes, not proceeding from one or the other by delegation, either from above or from below. The Federal Par liament will have legislative sovereign power in all questions submitted to its control jn the Constitution. So also the looal legis latures will be sovereign in all matters whioh are specifically assigned to them. How is the question of a conflict now settled in the United Sfates, when it arises between the legislation of Congress and that of individual states ? I do not speak of the present time when nearly the whole of the territory of that great country is under military rule, and overrun in every direction by an army of 500,000 soldiers. I allude to what occurs in their normal condition. (Hear.) The sovereign power is vested in the Federal Govemment with respect to all Federal matters, and in the states with respect to all matters con nected with their special attributes. By 698 reading Storet, or rather the Constitution, the hon. member will ascertain that the states are not paramount with respect to questions of war and peace, the tariff, trade, treaties and all relations with foreign coun tries. Their authority is void so far as relates to those questions, and the sovereign power is vested exclusively in ths Federal Government. If any conflict arises between the Federal Legislature and that of the states, it is decided by the judicial tribunals. I am not aware that any difficulty of this nature has ever arisen, and so far as relates to tbe legislative attributes of the states, that Federal legislation has ever predomina ted over local legialation. (Hear, hear.) Why then ahould the case be otherwiae ao far aa we are concerned ? Is it because we are differently constituted, and because our nature is subservient to other laws ? These are wretched arguments, and he has even been reduced to splitting hairs since he has attended the school of the member for Brome, whose place he almost fills since he has been ill. (Laughter.) The honorable member for Hochelaga considered my first pamphlet muoh better written than my last, doubtless for the same reason that be con sidered my speeches of 1858 greatly superior to that which I delivered here tbe other day. He thinks now as I thought in 1858 ; he has therefore receded by six years. Allud ing to my speech of the 2ijd March, he appears to impute it to me as a crime, that I yielded to the influence of my relationa with the delegates from the Blaritime Provinces, and that under the action of that influence, I changed my opinions respecting Confeder ation. I admit the fact of that influence legitimately exercised. We lose nothing by coming in contact with intelligent men. The meuibers ot this House, who last autumn visited those provinces, returned amazed at what they had seen. They were convinced that those provinces were possessed of great resources. Contact with the moat eminent men of thoae countriea could be productive of no evil, and the hon. member would have gained by it. Perhapa if he had experi enced that contact, he would not to-day have recourse to the means which heis employing to caat diacredit on the scheme of Confeder ation, and to cause it tobe rejected. (Hear, hear.) Among those men there are some who are endowed with magnificent abilities, and at whose side I should be happy and proud to ait in a deliberative aaaembly. (Hear, hear.) Yea, we were gainers by coming in contact with them, and I venture to believe that, on their parts, they wore divested of many prejudices which they may possibly havo entertained againat ua, juat aa we had some such against them. The hon. member quoted certain articles from the Journal de Quehec of 1856 and 1858 to prove that I said that then the Government was the worst I had ever seen. Perhaps I was right at the time, but I could not say the same thing since it has been my lot to look upon the hon. member's Government ! (Hear, and laughter.) If there was ever a tyrannical and dishonest Govemment, it was certainly that cf 1863, and accordingly it succumbed beforo the attacks of all honest men. Ex cept for some accident, such as that which occurred in 1862, who ventures to hope to see the hon. member return to power ? (Hear, hear.) He told us that it was not expedient to change the Conslitution without first having recourse to an appeal to the people. Bui the first question to be decided is the constitutional question, and the ques tion of expediency and convenience comes after. He talks to us without ceasing of consulting the electors. His doing so may be easily understood ; on the elections reat hia only hopea. Always deceived in every election, he hopes, but hopes in vain, that the next will give him the victory. He ought to know, however, that our Constit-ation ia constructed upon the model of the British Conatitution, and that members do not and cannot receive an imperative order from their electors. Each representative, although elected by one particular county, representa the whole country, and hia legislative re sponsibility extenda to the whole of it. If, therefore, I am convinced that any legislative measure preaented by the Government or by a member of this House, is of a nature to save Lower Canada, I muat vote for that meaaure, even though my conatituenta are oppoaed to it. Bly electora might punish me afterwards, but they could not impose upon me duties which I consider to be en tirely beyond their juriadictiou, and to relate to the very Conatitution of the country. (Hear, hear.) If there are any membera who conaider that the acheme of Confeder ation is a bad one and opposed to the inte rests of Lower Canada, even if the majority of our people think otherwiae, it is their duty to oppose it on preciaely the aarae principle. They may alao, if they choose, deraand an appeal to the people. But would they be juatified in so doing, and ought this House 699 to demand it simply in order to compensate for that absence of opposition which gives inces sant trouble to the hon. member foy Hoche laga? (Hear, hear.) Thehonorable member for Hochelaga spoke of public meetings held in certain counties in the district of Blontreal ; but those meetings are far from possessing the importance which he assigns to them. We all know how they can be got up everywhere, and what they amount to. However the case may be there, there have been none such in the district of Quebec, and even in the district of Three Rivers, against Confederation, and it cannot be said that the members who represent those districts, and who vote for this mea sure, are acting in opposition to the wishes of their constituents. Such meetings are only found to occur in the district of Mon treal, where the party of the honorable mem ber is most strongly represented; but an opinion may be formed as to those meetings from what is going on at Quebec at this moment. While the whole body of citizens are calling for the suspension of the present municipal council, some individuals inter ested in keeping it in authority are calling public meetings in the nooks and corners of the suburbs. (Hear, hear.) The honorable member made tremendous efforts to prove that the interests of our religion, our na tionality and our inatitutiona would fee in a position of much greater safety in his hands than they would be in those of the majority. For my part, I am willing to leave to pubUc opinion the care of deciding that question ; and as he declares himself to hold that opinion in great respect, I must suppose that he will agree with me on this point. (Hear, hear.) I would not assert that the honorable member is himself personally hos tile to tbe religion and the institutions of Lower Canada ; but I may say that all the tendencies of the party which he represents are adverse to those same institutions. (Hear, hear.) There ia sufficient proof of this in the writings and the acts of that party. As to my opinion respecting Coufed eration, I may repeat here what I have already said on a former occasion, and that is, that no one knew what that opinion was, how I should write, and on what side I should write, when I began my work. I kept sUence that I might not be annoyed either by friends or by opponents, and in order that I might be able to judge of the question in the fulness of my liberty. (Hear.) Blention has been made of the dangers of Confederation. I know that every question has its dangers, and it is probable that this one presents some such in the same way as all others do ; but the greatest danger that we could incur would be the bringing on of a conflict between the Catholics and Protestants, by appeals like those which certain members on the left have made to the religious passions of our population. (Hear, hear.) In what posi tion should we find ourselves, we Catholics, if we provoked such a conflict ? Tho 258,000 Catholics of LTpper Canada are re presented in this House by but two mem bers, those for Cornwall and Glengarry (Hon. J. S. .and BIr. D. A. BIacdonald), whilst the Protestants of Lower Canada are represented by fifteen or sixteen members ; and in case of a conflict between the Catho lics and the Protestants, what would become of us ? (Hear, hear.) From the justice, the wisdom and the liberality of our acts alone have we hitherto found our strength and our protection to proceed, and from them shall we again find them to proceed under Confederation. (Hear.) The hon orable member for Hochelaga quoted a garbled portion of my firat pamphlet, to give it a meaning which it doea not convey ; he then accuaea me of having changed my opinion aa to the Conatitution of the Legis lative Council. But I can teU him that I have never changed my opinion on that question ; I have never been in favor of the elective principle being applied to the Le gialative Council; and if in 1858 I prepared and introduced the law which changed tbe constitution of that body, it was only that I might gratify the univeraal opinion which deaired an elective Legialative Couneii. But, the honorable member for Hochelaga will reply, did you not write in 1858 : — • The best possible condition under which Con federation could exist would he that in which the two chambera would be elective, and would both have populdtion aa the basis of their number ; for no other system, excepting that of having but one chamber only, with the number of its membera baaed on population, would give us absolutely one vote in three in the Federal Legislature. Was the question then whether the elective principle was preferable to that of appoint ment ? No ; we were diacuaaing a queation of much greater importance, that of aacer taining in what condition of constitutional existence we should find the greatest protec- 700 tion, and having to select from two alterna tives, numbers or the State, I preferred numbers, because it would have eonferred upon ua a larger share of representation and of influence. The worda which follow, and which I will give, clearly prove my thought at that time : — The Conatitution of the United Statea, on which, perhapa, oura would be modeled, would not give to us Lower Canadiana the same pro tection and the same guarantee of aafety, aa by it we ahould in reality enjoy a little pro tection only in the Houae of Representatives, in which we should be one to three. Thus the protection would have been veated in the Legislative Council itaelf, if it had been created on the principle of the State and not of numbers. To shew that my mind waa then filled with but one idea — that of obtaining the greateat share of influence in the Federal Legislature for Lower Canada, by any conatitutional system whatever, I also wrote in the aame pamphlet : — Under the Federal principle, small and great provinces will carry equal weight in the single (general) legislature ; the little island of Prince Edward as much as the twelve hundred and fifty thousand aouls of liower Canada. Having no information to go upon, I then thought that the American ayatem would be adopted, which givea in the Federal Senate to the little atatea of Rhode Ialand, Jeraey, Maine, Vermont and Connecticut the aame repreaentation as it givea to the large atatea of New York, Pennsylvania and Ohio. But tho scheme that we have belore us proves that I was mistaken, as Prince Edward's Island, instead of having as many represen tatives in the Legislative Council as we shall have, will only have one-sixth of the number. For the purpose of representation in the Legislative Council, the three Atlantic Pro vinces are grouped together, and are to be represented together by but twenty-four votes, juat the same as Lower Canada. (Hear, hear.) As the question was as to the establishment of equilibrium between the provinces, if the scheme of the Quebec Conference gives me the same result as an elective Legislative CouncU, what contradic tion is there in my returning to the nomina tive principle, which I always preferred to the elective principle ? The conditiona of equilibrium being the aame, I give the pre ference to the principle which confera on legislation the best guarantee of wisdom and mature judgment. (Hear, hear.) But sup posing — what is not the case — that I had contradicted myself, in what way could my contradictions have affected the merits of the question under discussion ? If it can be proved that my opinions of to-day are not based on reasonable grounds, let it be proved. If it cahnot be proved, do not let anyone imagine that he has answered me by saying : " You thought differently six years ago." Because I reaaoned in 1858 on hypothesea which are controverted by facts to-day, must I then, in order to appear consistent, adhere to those suppositions which substantive truths so completely contradict ? (Hear, hear.) The hon. member for Hochelaga told us that the Constitution of the Belgian Senate ia leas conservative than that of the Legislative Couucil which we propose to eatablish under the Confederation, becauae the membera of the Belgian Senate are in part changed every four years. To this I reply, that the conaervative principle may be found elaewhere than in the manner of select ing the eouncillors or the senators, and that in Belgium it is found in the excessively high atandard of qualification which ia re quired of candidates forthe Senate^; so muoh so that only men of large fortune, who are everywhere few in number, can aspire to enter it. In Belgium the Constitution re quires that there ahall be one man qualified in every aix thouaand aouls of population, and that man must pay one thouaand florins of direct taxea. Will it be aaid that the Belgian Senate, so constituted, is not more conservative than our Legislative Council wUl be — the Belgian Senate, in which none can sit but very rich men and large landed proprietors ? (Hear, hear.) I am answered that one-half this Senate is renewed every four years, and that the Crown may dissolve it at pleasure. But can the Crown prevent men of large fortune and large landed pro prietors from entering it ? It is proved that it is with difficulty that there can be found in the House of Lords any scions ol the great families who flourished there under Charles IL; but that House is constantly recruited from among the territorial nobility and from among men who render great poli tical or military services to the state. By renewing it thus with the same elements, does the Crown take away its conservative charac ter ? (Hear, hear.) The hon. member stands in perpetual dread of conflicts and disagreement^. S apposing that the House of Lords had persisted in its opposition to 701 the Reform Bill in 1832, what would have happened if William IV. had refused to overwhelm it by numerous nominations to the peerage ? Does any one believe that it would have persisted to the last ? No ; after having long resisted, it would have bent before the storm which threatened to sweep it away. (Hear, hear.) In 1832 the struggle was between the great proprietors and the middle classes, who wished to make their way ; for the English people, properly termed the populace, have no political privi leges ; they are of no account in the Consti tution, they hold no political position, and have no energy for the struggle, which, moreover, would not be productive of any benefit to thera. It resembles in uo respect the populations of the great towns in France, which make and unmake governments by insurrections or revolutions. In England it is the middle classes who make revolutions or who threaten to make them. Growing richer daily, they advance slowly but surely towards the securing of political privileges and immunities. The Radical school of Manchester at bottom wishes for nothing more, although it asserts that it is de sirous of obtaining privileges for the peo ple. If the great nobility, in 1832, offered such determined opposition to the Reform Bill, itwas because they feared that it would annihilate their influence and place them at the mercy of the will of the masses. But we have no caste here, and fortune, like politioal honors, is the property of every man who labors to attain it. Here every one, if he chooses, cau almost without an effort be come a proprietor and possess the right of having a deliberative voice in the discussion of national questions of the highest import ance. To be a legislative councillor it will be sufficient to poaaess real estate of the value of four thousand dollars. The legislative councillors will form part of the people, will live with the people and by their opinions, and will know and appreciate their wants ; the only difference that there will be between them and the members of tho House of Commons will be, that being appointed for life, they wUl not be as directly brought under external influence ; that they will have more freedom of action and of thought, aud that they will be able to judge with greater calmness of the legislation which will be submitted to them. For what reason then would they provoke contests which would neither be conducive to their interests nor in accordance with their feelings ; they will not, like the House of Lords, have pri vilegea to save from destruction. In the Constitution they will have but one part to play, that of maturing legislation in the interests of the people. The hon. member for Hochelaga said in his last manifesto, and repeated here, that if we applied to England to amend our Constitution, we should expoae ourselves to having alterations, for which we do not ask, made by some mischievous hand. The thing is poasible I admit. It ia pos.ai- ble, aa it ia also possible for the Imperial Parliament to change our Constitution with out even waiting for us to take the initiative, aa it did in 1840, but if there is any harm now in asking Great Britain for the Confed eration of all the provinces, because she may subject us to something which ia not contained in the soheme, why did the mem ber for Hochelaga wish for constitutional changes in 1S58 ? Did he hope to change the Constitutional Act of 1840 without the concurrence of the Imperial Parliament ? And will he be good enough to tell us by what supernatural proceeding he hoped to succeed in doing so ? If there is danger in 1865, there must also have been danger in 1858. Why thou should he, to day, impute to othera as a crime that whieh he wished to do him self then ? Has he forgotten all tbat ? Does he wiah to deny it ? Differing alightly from the Bourbons, he has learned nothing and has forgotten everything. (Hear, and laughter.) To frighten us, he also spoke of direct taxation, to which we should bave to aubmit, if we had Confederation. Now, in his conatitutional acheme of 1858, with whioh we are all acquainted, be gave to the Federal Government tbe customs revenue. We should, therefore, have had to have re course to direct taxation to meet the expen diture of the local governments. The plan of Constitution whioh ia aubmitted to ua treats us better thau that, for it gives ua enough, and more than we require, to enaure the easy working ofthe local organizations. Hon. BIr. HOLTON— Hear ! hear! Hon. Attt. Gen. CARTIER — Yes, hear ! hear! just sol Hon. Mr. CAUOHON— The hon. mem ber for Chateauguay, who ories " Hear, hear," ought to be satisfied if he thinks himself in the 'right ; for when he was Minister of Finance he told us that in order to fill up the deficit left by his predeceasora, he muat necessarily have recourse to direct taxation. (Hear, hear.) The hon. member for Hochelaga has long wept over the mis- 702 fortunes of his country. He has long la mented, like Jeremiah, over the thought ofthe disaatera which were overwhelming it. And at last, in 1858, enlightened by the in telligence of his luminous friend the member for Chateauguay, he thought he had dis covered in direct taxation the remedy for the evils which were bringing it to its grav^. (Hear, hear.) But to-day he rejects a scheme which may save the country without its being necessary to have recourse to tbia extreme and objectionable remedy. (Hear, hear.) If the soheme becomes law, not only sball we have a sufficient revenue to meet our looal expenditure, but we shall also have a surplus with which, if we practise wiae economy, to pay off by degrees the residue of the debt whioh will remain to us. The hon. member for Hochelaga teUa us that Lower Canada will be burthened with a local debt of more than $4,500,000 ; but we have clear and palpable proof that the debt of Canada, deducting the part of the Sinking Fund which haa been paid, amounts to only $67,500,000. Now our share of the Federal debt is establiahed at $62,500,000. There will conaequently remain lesa than $5,000,000 to be divided between the two Canadaa, and all the argu menta of the hon. member wUl not change ao inconteatable a fact aa thia. (Hear, hear.) We do not get theae figurea from the Hon. Miniater of Finance. They are given to ua by a man who is perfectly independent of all Blinistera and of all parties — a man whom I myself formerly reproached with being too much ao; I aUude to BIr. Langton, the Auditor of Accounts. (Hear, hear.) We do not yet know, it is true, how this debt of four milliona and aome hundred thouaand dollara will be divided between the two Canadas, but we do know, without any poaai bility of doubt, that the local revenuea will belong to the local govemmenta, and that they will amply auffice for all their requirementa. (Hear, hear.) The honorable member for Hochelaga complaina that Upper Canada retaina her public landa and what ia owing to Government on thoae landa, and he maintaina that Lower Canada ought to have her share of what thoae lands produce. But did those lands beleng to ua before the union, and have we not our own public landa, together with the revenue accruing from them ? Have we not more landa to aettle than Upper Canada? Since the diacovery of our gold and copper mines the amount produced by the sale of our public lands has increased fivefold, whilst Upper Canada has hardly any land left to sell. Let our mines be opened, and we shall find that we have no reason to envy Upper Canada. (Hear, hear.) Everything is well adjusted ; for if we have a less considerable revenue than Upper Canada, our population is also leaa numerous. Upper Canada poasesses a more conaiderable revenue, but one which must diminiah with the decrease of the quantity of land to be sold, whilst we have a revenue which is gradually increasing. (Hear, hear.) The hon. member would no doubt hand over the public lands to the Confederation so as to be in accordance with his plan of 1859, as set forth in the Montreal manifesto ; but I am certain that Lower Canada does not share hia opinion. He talked to ua alao of marriage and divorce. He aaid : " Now, you will not vote directly for divoice, but you vote to eatabliah divorce courta." Well ! no one condemns divorce more than I do myaelf, and I am convinced that the hon. member for Hochelaga would accept it sooner than 1 would. But if no mention was made of divorc3 in the Constitution, if it was not assigned to the Federal Parlia ment, it would of necessity belong to the local parliaments aa it belonga to our Legia lature now, although there ia not one word respecting it in the Union Act. For my part, I would rather see that power removed to a distance from us, aince it must exist somewhere in spite of us. (Hear, hear.) These reaaoninga on the queation of marriage are extraordinary to a degree, coming from a man holding a poaition at the bar. They are ao extraordinary, and ao inoonsiatent with all logic and all law, that I shall not take the trouble of controverting them. The explanations of the Government have satia- fied me on that point. The legialative power of the Federal ParUament in relation to marriage will only be that which ia conferred by the Constitution, notwithatanding the aingular assertions of thehonorable member. (Hear, hear, and cheers.) On motion of Dr. Parker, the debate was then adjourned. Tuesdat, 7th March, 1865. The Order of the Day being read for re suming the adjourned debate on Confedera tion, — 70S Hon. Attt. Gen. MACDONALD said— Before the debate is resumed, I wish to say a few words. I would call the attention of the House to the telegram received to-day — which is rather confused in its terms — with reference to a debate in the House of Lords on the subject of the defences of Canada. According to this telegram, "Earl Db Gret, Secretary of State for War, admitted the importance of the question, but regretted that any doubt should be expressed of the concUiatory intentions of the Americans. The Government would ask a vote of £50,000 for the Quebec defences, whUe the Canadians would undertake the de fences of Montreal and westward." The amount, according to another statement, is £30,000. The figures are apparently a mis take for £300,000. My object in rising was to state that so far as we oould gather from this confused summary of the debate, the Imperial Government were about to ask a a certain amount for the defences of Quebec, while the Canadians would undertake the defence of Montreal and the country west ward. I may state it is quite true that the Imperial Government made a propoaition some time ago to the effect that they were wiUing and prepared to recommend to Par liament a vote for the defence of Quebec, as ia here atated, provided thia pro-vince undertook the defence of Blontreal and points westward. Negotiations havebeen going on on thia quea tion between the Imperial Government and the Canadian Government ever since, and I think that there is every reaaon to believe that these negotiations will result most favor ably, and that arrangements will be made in a manner such as to secure the defence of Canada, both east and west — in a manner such as to enaure the fuUeat protection to the country, and as at the aame time will not press unduly on the energies of the people. (Hear.) Sir, those negotiations are still proceeding — they have not yet concluded — and it muat be obvioua to every honorable member who haa read thia abort synopsis of the debate in the Imperial Parliament, that it is of the greatest poaaible importance that Canada should not be unrepreaented in England at the present time. (Cheers.) It must be evident to all that some of the leading mem bers of the Administration should be in England at this juncture, for the purpose of attending to Canadian interesta, and of con cluding these negotiations without any loss of time whatever. (Hear, hear.) It is deairable, as I stated yesterday, that the two questions of Federation and Defence should be discussed at the same moment, and that the opportunity should be taken of exactly ascertaining the position of British North America with respect to her degree of reliance on the Im perial Government in a political sense, as well as with regard to the question of defence. Therefore, there should not be any loss of time whatever, and with that view the Gov ernment would ask this House — as the disous sion has already f/one on to a considerable length, and a great many honorable gentlemen have spoken on the subject — that it will offer no undue delay in coming to a conclusion in this mat ter. Of course the Government would not attempt to shut down tbe floodgates against all discussion ; but they would merely ask and invite the House to consider the import ance of as early a vote as the Ilouse can pro perly allow to be taken upon this queslion. It is for the House to determine whether the Federation soheme which has been proposed by the Govemment and laid before the House is one which, with all its faults, should be adopted, or whether we shall be thrown upon an uncertain future. In order that the House may at once come to an understanding in the matter, I shall, as I stated yesterday, take every possible step known to parliamentary usage to get a vote as soon as it can con veniently be got, and I have th.refore now to move the previous question. (Ironical Ofipo- silion cheers and counter cheering.) I move, sir, that the main question be now put. (Biore cheering.) Honorable gentlemen op posite know very well that my making this motion does not in any way stop the debute. (Hear, hear.) The House will be gratified to hear, and will still have an opportunity of hearini;-, from the honorable member from Chateauguay (Hon. Mr. Holton), who cries "Hear, hear," an expression of opinion whether this scheme is so objectionable that the House would be wise in rejecting it, with nothing now offered as a substitute, and no future to look to. It will afford us all great pleasure to hear the honorable gentleman say whether we should adopt this scheme. There is an independent motion on the paper of my honorable friend from Peel (Hon. J. H. Cameron). Bly motion does not interfere with that. But if the House should consider that this scheme ought to be adopted, my honorable friend wiU then have an opportunity of prc'posing his motio'i. (Hear, hoar.) The SPEAKER— If honorable gentlemen desire it, I will i ead the rule of the House as to the previous question. The 35th rule of the House is as follows : — " The previous 704 question, untU it is decided, shall preclude all amendments to the main question" — (ironical Opposition cheers) — " and shall be in the following wordf — ' That this question be now put.' If the previous question be resolved in the affirmative, the original question is put forthwith, without amendment or debate." (Hear, hear.) Hon. Mr. CARTIER— Mr. Speaker, I seeond the motion. (Derisive Opposition cheers.) The speaker— The motion is that this question be now put. Hon. Mr. HOLTON— I shaU not on this occasion, sir, make any remarks as to the mode of proceeding adopted by the Honorable Attorney General West, further than this, that a friend, an honorable member of this House, intimated to me yesterday that this course was likely to be pursued by the Gov ernment in order to crowd this measure through the House. I scouted the idea. I thought it was impossible that a govemment, numbering in its ranks public men who have played a prominent part in the parliamentary history of this country for some years, could resort to so base a trick — (cheers and coun ter cheers) — after having introduced this measure in the manner they have done — after having introduced it in a moat unparliament ary and unconstitutional manner — and aeeing that amendments would be made to several of the propositions contained in the resolu tions adopted by the Conference which assem bled in Quebec, they shut off all opportunity to amend the meaaure by moving the previous question. (Hear, hear.) Why was it not stated by the Honorable Attomey General West himself that we would be able to get at the sense of the House upon every one of the propositions, by moving amendments? (Hear, hear.) In full confidence that that pledge would be kept, when my honorable friend who sits near me told me he had reason to believe that this very course was in con templation, I repeat I scouted the idea. (Hear, hear.) I shall not offer any further observations on this point at the present mo ment, beyond remarking that if the object be to curtail debate, as the honorable gentleman says it is — if his real motive be in truth to ar rive at an early vote upon this question — his own statement shows how utterly futile his motion is to accomplish that end. It v^as not at all necessary that the honorable gen tleman should have told ua that we may diacuss the previous question. We are now, by a compact which I presume wiU not be violated — although I do not know what at tempt wiU be made next — we are practicaUy in Committee of the Whole, with liberty to speak as often as we please on this question. Therefore, the object atated by the honorable gentleman cannot be attained, but another object can be and will be attained — they will take their foUowera, whom they have already led on to do things of which they will bitterly repent when tbey come face to face with their constituents, and drag them stiU further through the mire — (cheers and coun ter cheers) — by depriving them of the oppor tunity of putting on record their views, even in the inconvenient form of amendmenta, upon the varioua propoaitiona which are propoaed to be embodied in thia Addreaa to the Crown. (Hear, hear.) Sir, the honorable gentleman aays that the information received by tele graph in reference to the defences renders it necessary that an early decision should be come to in the matter of Federation. But what has been tho course of the honorable gentlemen opposite, throughout this debate, when the subject of the defences has been re ferred to ? When we have said — " Put us in possession of the necessary information to consider the subject of the defences, whieh must be diacuaaed in connection with the scheme of Confederation," what haa been the reply ? Why, that there was no natural or necessary connection between the two sub jecta. (Hear, hear.) Thus, when the honor able gentlemen were asked to bring down the information in regard to tbe defences, they have maintained that there is no connection between tho two questions ; but when they have a purpose to serve by ao doing, they re verae their position and aay, " By all means rush this thing through with all poaaible apeed, in order that the oountry may be placed in a po aition of defence." I think, air, we are entitled at this stage of the debate, and under these circumstances, to demand that all the infor mation in possession of the Government in regard to the defences, should be laid before the House. I believe there is no better re cognized parliamentary rule than this, that when a Minister of the Crown rises in his place in Parliament and refers to despatches on matters of public importance, these des patches must be laid before the House. It is founded on the same rule whioh prevails in our courts, which requires that any paper re ferred to in evidence or argument, in order to be of use, must be in the possession of the court. I should like to ask the Hon. Attorney General West the question — and I pause for 705 an answer — whether it is the intention of the Government, before pressing this resolution to a vote, to place the House in possession of the information for which I am now seeking ? Hon. Attt. Gen. MACDONALD — It certainly is not, and for reasons of the best kind. Hon. Mr. HOLTON— The honorable gentleman says it certainly is not. And yet he asks us to give a vote, in view of information which he withholds, not mere ly on the question of the defences, but of Confederation as well. If the honorable gentleman had used the arguments for withholding information which he has put forth, if the proposition were simply a money vote to place the country in a state of defence, there might be some reason in it, but he is using them to induce us to vote for a political scheme embracing all sorts of things other than the question of defence. The position the hon. gentleman now assumes is unconstitutional; but being unconstitutional, it is in perfect keeping with the whole courae of this Administration since its formation in June last, when it initiated its existence by pledging the Crown, in a written document, uot to exercise the prerogative of dissolution until another session of this Parliament should have been held. (Hear, hear.) I say that their course in this instance is in keeping with every step they have taken since their formation. Well, sir, I have put one question to the Hon. Attorney General West, and I propose now, with the leave of my hon. friend the member for North "Wellington, who is entitled to the floor, to put another question. He may answer it or not, as he thinks proper ; but the country will draw its own inference from his reply. Yesterday, he stated that in consequence of the result of the New Brunswick elections, it had become tolerably apparent that this scheme had received its first check. In other words, he admitted plainly that the result of the New Brunswick electiona was adverse to the scheme. I may add, that he knows very well a majority of the present Parliament of Nova Scotia ia adverse to it. Hon. Mr. BROWN— No! no ! Hon. Mr. HOLTON— I say, yes; and in the Island of Prince Edward, there is no probability whatever of the scheme^ being accepted. Well, notwithstanding this, he says that he shall press this measure to a vote. A question was put yesterday, which 90 was answered ; but there is some misap prehension as to the purport of the answer, and I think it will be admitted to be a question in regard to whieh there should not be any misapprehension whatever. Hon. j. S. MACDONALD— You could not understand it. Hon. Mr. HOLTON— WeU, I admit the obtuseness of my understanding. The queation I desire to ask the leader of the Government is this — Is it the intention of the Government to presa for Imperial legis lation, under the Address which they are now inviting the House to adopt, affecting the Lower Provinces, or any of them, with out the concurrence of those provinces ? That is the question I desire to ask the hon. gentleman. Hon. Attt. Gen. MACDONALD— It is not the intention of the Canadian Govern ment to press the Imperial Government to paas any act whatever. Hon. Mr. HOLTON— Then clearly the hon. gentleman was misunderatood yeater day. He then stated that it waa of the higheat posaible importance this measure ahould paaa without delay, in order that the Miniatry might go home and consult with the Imperial Government in respect to the bill to be introduced to give effect to this Addreaa. Hon. Mr. BROWN— And that ia correct. BIr. RANKIN— The Government do not intend to " preaa" for Iraperial legialation. Hon. Mr. HOLTON— I do not want to quibble about mere worda. What I want to know is — whether, in purauance of this Addreaa, bon. gentlemen intend to aak, or have any reason to expect that the Imperial Governraent — (Hon. Mr. Rrown — " Oh ! oh ! ") — or have any reaaon to expect that the Imperial Government will legialate with out the concurrence of the Lower Provinces ? Whether, in point of fact, if the concurrence of the Lower Provincea be withheld from the scheme of tho Conference, he has reason to believe that legislation can be had thereon? I desire to know, first, whether he intends to ask for auch legialation; and, second, whether he thinks it can be had ? Hon. Attt. Gen. MACDONALD— I think the House, and even the hon, gentle man himself, must aee the unreaaonablenesa of the queation he asks, which is, whether I have any expectation that the British Government will enact some compulsory law against the will of the Lower Pro- 706 vinces on the question of Federation. All that I can aay is, that I have uo better meana of forming an opinion on the aubject than the hon. gentleman himaelf. AVhat I stated yeaterday I repeat to-day, that the Canadian Government, knowing that the opinion of the people of New Biunawiok has been expreaaed againat Federation, would em brace the earlieat opportunity of discuas- ing with the Imperial Government the poaition of Britiah North .\ merica, especially with reference to the present atate of affairs in Canada, containing a population of four- fifths of the people of British North America, in favor of Federation, as against New Brunawick, with a population of two bun- died odd thouaand againat it. In diaoussing the question with Her Blajesty's Imperial advisers, we ahall probably enter into the conaideration of the whole matter ; but what the nature of theae discusaiona may be, or what they will lead to or wUl not lead to, I ctmnot possibly say. They may lead to conclusiona, tut what thoao cincluaiona may be 00 mortal man can tell. We cannot say to what conclusions the Imperial Govern ment may come. (Hear, bear.) Hon. BIr. HOLTON— I am obhged to the honorable gentleman for hia ooutteous anawer. I think it ia, on the whole, a aatia factory anawer, because the anawer plainly impliea thia, that without the concurrence ofthe Lower Provincea thia neasure cannot go on. Thiit ia the plain implication. We know well that we ahall not have the con currence ofthe Lower Provincea, and there fore it ia abaurd to aak thia House to '. ote a meaaure which the honorable gentlemen themselves, aa they have risen oue after another in the course of this debate, have declared to be an imperfect mcsure — a measure of o.mpromiae — not such a measure aa thoy, in many reapecta, deaired and advo cated, but a meaaure which they had ton- curied in fbr the purpose of inducing the Lower Provinces to Lecone partiea to it. Why, I aak, ahould thia House be cal'ed upon to vote ibr the objectionable featurea of a acheme, when there is no longer any reaaon fbr such a vote — wlien it ia admitted tbat tbe Lower Piovinces, for whose sake these objcctioi able features were introduced, will not consent and cannot be coerced into it? (Hear, hear.j Ihe Hon, President oi the Council told the people of Toronto, at tl e banquet recently held there, that he waa entiiely oppoaed to the new conatitution of the Legislative Council, and that he op posed it in the Conference. We know a'so that that feature of the scheme is very objec tionable to the whole of what might once have been called the Liberal party, but the Hon. Preaident of the Council haa deatroyed that party, and it ia not, perhapa, right to apeak of it aa the Liberal party any longer — they are only now to te known aa those who once ranged theraaelves together, in Upper and Lower Canada, under the Liberal banner. The Hon Preaidentof the Council atated, that aa repreaenting in the Conference the Liberal party of Upper Canada — the Liberal party of Lower Canada having no repreaentation in the Conference at all — as representing the Liberal party of Upper Canada, the party from that section which is in a large ma jority in this Houae, the honorable gentle raan atated that he waa opposed to thia feature of the acheme — a feature which ia known to be aa unpalatable to a large majority of this House as it is to the hon. gentleman himaelf. I merely mention this to illustrate my argument. Why ahould hon. gentlemen, who were diapoaed to accept thia acheme aa a whole, notwithatanding theae objectionable featurea — who were dia poaed to accept it, ou the grounda set forth by their leadera, aa a meaaure of comproraiae — why, I aak, ahould they now be called upon to vote in oppoaition to their convic tiona, merely to gratify the amour-propre of the hon. gentlemen on the Treaaury benchea, whoae deaire it is to carry through the Houae an Addreaa which, by "their own admiaaion made to thia Houae, muat be of non-effect? (Hear, hear.) Hon. Attt. Gen. MACDONALD— But that it will be the Constitution of this country, I am aatisfied. Hon. BIr. HOLTON— The hon. gentle man boasts that it wUl be the Constitution of this country ? Hon. Attt. Gen. BIACDONALD — What I meant was, of ali British North Ameiioa. Hon. BIr. HOLTON— The hon. gentle man said "of this counlry." J he hon. gentleman, therefore, admits that if he falls in procuring the concurrence of the Lower Proviuces to the measure— that if they cannot be brought into the scheme ibr re constructing their Govemmenta — th y are going to aak the Imperial Government to Iound a Constitution for the two Canadas upon these resolutions. Hon. Atty. Gen. MACDONALL— The 707 hon. gentleman has drawn erroneous in ferences from what I atated. When I ,aaid I had no doubt that the reaolutions now before the House would be the Conatitution of thia country, I meant to aay I had no more doubt than that I atand here that it would be adopted not only by Canada, but by the other provinces. Hon. BIr, HOLTON— Ah ! Thehon. gentleman has '• no doubt." Hon. Atty. Gen. BIACDONALD— You aie trying to twist ray worda; but go on. Hon. BIr. HOLTON— I have not had the aame training aa the honorable gentleman in the way of word twiating. I take bis worda in their plain and literal aenae. He saya he haa no doubt that theae resolutions will form the Conatitution of thia country. Then, air, why do not honorable gentlemen keep faith? Why doea not the Hon. President of the Council, in an especial manner, keep faith with his party, by giving us the acheme which he pledged himaelf, in the event of such a contingency as this, should be brought down during this session of Parlia ment ? Thehonorable gentleman does uot find it convenient to answer. I confess I did not expect an answer ; but nevertheless I thought it desirable to put the question to hira. I, equally with other members of the Houae, can draw my inferences from his silence. He knowa very well it ia a viola tion of tbe prograranie under whieh he entered the Government ; and well he knowa that it ia a departure from the avowal which conatituted, I will not aay his juatification, but hia aole excuae for occupying the seat which he now filla. The queation is now aaked whether it ia intended by the Govem ment to go to England and aak the Imperial Parliament to eatabliah a Coaatitution for this country, the principlea of which have never been conaidered, becauae we are con sidering now the acheme of Federation for the whole country ? Hon. Attt. Gen. MACDONALD -I stated that the firat thing to be done by the Governraent, in the aummer aession, would be to submit a meaaure for fully carrying out the programme First, carry Confeder ation, aud when we met again we would brino- in a scheme for the local govern ments of Upper and Lower Canada. Hon. BIr. HOLTON— Yes, local gov emments. I am obUged to the honorable gentleraan for reminding me of the local governments; but I was speaking of the General Governraent ff Canada. (Hear' hear.) I think it follows irreaiatibly from the admiasion of the hon, gentleman to-day, that it is their intention to seek a general Conatit'ition for Canada under theae reaolu tiona, without ever having aubmitted that queation to the Houae. Well, air, there is another reaaon perhaps for the courae taken by hon. gentlemen yeaterday and puraued to-day. It haa alwaya been a theory of my own — perhipa it has not yet been demon strated by facta — Hon. Attt. Gen. MACDONALD— Hear, hoar. Hon. Mr. HOLTON- 1 say it has always been a theory of my own, and facts are rapidly demonatrating the truth of that theory, that thia Governraent waa formed in conaequence of the eniergenciea of certain gentleraen who were in office, and deaired to retain office, aud of certain other gentleraen who were out of office and who deaired to come in. I believe that the whole constitu tional difficultiea, or alleged conatitutional difficultiea, of this country arose from the personal or rather the political emergencies into whioh certain hon. gentlemen found theraaelvea, from cauaes to whioh I ahall not row advert. (Hear, hear.) Well, air, feeling that ihia scheme haa failed — feeling that tbe pretext upon which they have held office for aix or nine montha ia about to fail them, they deviae other meana, as a aort of lure to the country, whereby office may be kept for a further period. I admit the dexterity with which the thing ia done — a dexterity for whioh the Hon. Attorney General Weat bas long been famous in thia country. His theory is : " Take care of to-day — when to-morrow comea we will see what can be done'' — and by adhering to this maxim he has managed to lengthen out the term of his political existence. That, I believe, will be acknowledged to be the theory upon which the hon. gentleman acts. Hon. Attt. Gen. BIACDONALD— And a very sensible theory it is. (Laughter.) Hon. Mr. HOLTON— A sensible theory no doubt it is. I am glad to hear tbat the hon. gentleman does not deny the fact; but while admitting that be has achieved a con siderable meaaure of aucceaa in this way, whether, after all that aucceaa, he haa earned the higheat kind of reward of a public life — whether there ia anybody who speaka or thinks ol the hon. gentleman aa a atatesman, raay perhaps be doubted. It is admitted 708 hat he is an adroit manager — his manage ment being based on the theory of doing to-day what must be done to-day, and of leaving till to-morrow whatever can be de ferred. I doubt, however, after all, whether, when thehon. gentleman comes to review his career, he will be satisfied that that sort of policy brings with it the highest rewards of puUic life. Hon. Attt. Gen. MACDONALD— I shall be quite satisfied to aUow the hon. member for Chateauguay to be my bio grapher (Laughter.) Hon. Mr. HOLTON— But while that bas been his theory and his practice, and a certain de^urec of s-jccess haa attended it, I would like to aak the Hon. President of the Council whether he haa heretofore acted upon tbat theory, and whether he can quite afford to act upon it now ? Bloat of ua remember — those of ua who have been for a few yeara in public life in thia country, muat remember a very atriking apeech delivered by tho hon. member for South Oxford (Honorable Mr. Brown), in Toronto, in the aeaaion of 1856 or 1857 — he haa delivered many atriking speeches in his time, but this was one of the most striking — in which he described the path ofthe Hon. Attorney General West as being studded all along by the grave-stones of hia slaughtered colleagues. (Hear, hear.) Well, there are not wanting thoae who think they deacry in the not very remote distance, a yawning grave waiting for the nobleaf victim of them all. (Laughter ) And I very much fear, that unleaa the hon. gentle man haa the courage to aaaert his own ori ginal atrength — and he haa great atrength — and to diacard the blandiahmenta and the sweets of office, and to plant himself where he stood formerly, in the affections and con fidence of the people of this country, as the foremost defender of the rights of the people, as the foremost champion of the privileges of a free Parliament — unless he hastens to do that, I very much fear that he too may fall a victim — as I have said, the noblest victim of tbem all — to the arts, if not the arms, of the fell destroyer. (Laughter.) I desire, as I am on my feet — and am not at all certain that I shall, under the new phase of things, trouble the House with any length ened observations — I desire to say a lew words on the merits of this question of defence. Of course I hold, as I presume every man in this country holds, that the people that -will not defend themselves are unworthy of free institutions. I hold that we must defend ourselves against all aggressors, in the best way we can. I think the policy we have been pursuing for some years past, of enrolling our people and train ing them to the use of arms and in military exerciae, and in the inatrueting of officers who might lead them, should neceaaity re quire — I think all that is sound policy. I would even go somewhat further in that direction than we have gone heretofore. But if honorable gentlemen propose that we should eatabliah a atanding army— that we should equip a navy — that we should go into a ooatly aystem of permanent fortifica tions, they are proposing what is beyond the strength of the country — they are pro posing what will speedily bring financial ruin on the country — and by bringing finan cial ruin on the country, and by creating thereby disaatiafaction among the people, they will prepare the way to that very event which they profess so strongly to deprecate. I believe, if it has not that effect, it wiU certainly result in depopulating our country. Already the work of depopulation is going on. Hon. Mr. BROWN— Oh ! oh ! Hon. BIr. HOLTON— Throughout the whole of the western countiea of Canada, at the preaent moment, there ia a greater amount of financial diatreaa and of 'malaise than I have known for twenty-five yeara. I challenge the honorable gentlemen aroundme to contradict the statement. And I say we are not in a poaition to stand very great ad ditional burdens on our resources. (Hear, hear.) Then what is the condition of our finances ? The honorable gentleman who presides over our finances did not venture the other day to dispute the atatement I made, that every branch of the revenue waa falling off, and that we had an inevitable deficit for thia current year staring us in the face. Is it not so ? Hon. BIr. GALT — The hon. gentleman may repeat his own statement, but he must not put it in my mouth. Hon. Mr. HOLTON— The hon. gentle man did not venture to deny it, and I thought the gravity of the statement was such that he would have denied it, if he could. iLoN. Mr. GALT— Make your statement on your own reaponsibility, not mine Hon. Mr. HOLTON— Then, I say, ou my own responsibility, that every branch of the revenue has been falling off since the 709 beginning of this year, except the compara tively small amount from bill stamps. Hon. Mr. GALT — Do you say every branch of the revenue, with the exception you mention ? Hon. Mr. HOLTON— Yes. Hon. Mr. GALT— Then you wiU be shewn that it is not so, when you sit down. (Hear, hear.) Hon. BIr. HOLTON— Of course I shaU be glad to hear it. That is the sort of in formation we want before we give hon. gen tlemen a vote of credit, and allow them to go to England to do as t'- ey please for the next six months. It maybe that the revenue hasbeen brought up witbin the last few weeks from accidental causes. A rumor got abroad tbat the Hon. Finance Minister intended to make a change in the duties, and in two or three of our large cities a rush was made to the bonding warehouses, in order to save the additional amount that would be exacted by the change in duties. This, no doubt, in creaaed the receipts for the time being, and it is just possible that from that cause the revenue may have regained something of what it had lost during the earlier weeks of the present year. Then, too, the state of our securities in England — which waa so much improved, according to the statement of the Hon. President ofthe Council, by the action of the Quebec Conference, — is now anything indeed but satisfactory. I believe that with tha exception of the point they touched at one time in October, or early in November, and which they touched then for a very brief space — they are lower now and have been lower for a longer time than they havebeen at any period before since the union I think, therefore, we are not in a position to impose heavy and unmeasured burdens upon our people, for the purpoae of establishing a standing army, or for the pur pose of constructing permanent fortifications. (Hear, hear.) But I have said more than I intended when I rose, and shaU no longer deprive my hon. friend from North WeUing ton (Dr. Parker) of the floor. Hon. Mr. BROWN— I shall detain the House but a very few minutes in replying to the hon. gentleman who has just taken his seat. As regards his statement that the revenue has fallen off to the extent of which he speaks, in every branch, it is entirely erroneous. It will be shewn when the pro per time comes, when the House is asked to grant supplies, that the revenue is very far from being in the hopeless position which the hon. gentleman has stated. And I ap prehend his assertion with regard to the condition of the province is as greatly exag gerated as his other stateraent. It is very true that many portions of our country un fortunately labor at this moment under considerable depression ; but no intelligent person, who conaidera the circumatancea, will think that thia is at all extraordinary. We are alongside a country engaged in a fearful war. Our commercial relationa with that country, with which we usually have im mense transactions, are very greatly dia turbed. Then we have had short cropa for aeveral yeara, and our banks are all very properly under cloae-reefed topaails. These and other cauaes have contributed to produce the atagnation that now exiats, and a general diapoaition to curtail buaineaa operations. (Hear, hear,) But with all this — notwith standing the scarcity of money, and a good deal of embarrassment and auffering from its scarcity — I venture to affirm that the great branches of our national induatry were never on a sounder baaia; that buaineaa men have not for years owed less debt than at this moment; and when a better atate of things sets in, tbe evils of wbich the hon. gentleraan speaks will not be found to have been very deep-seated. (Hear, hoar.) The hon. gen tleman ia exceedingly anxioua that I ahould fulfil the promiaea I made to the country at the time I entered thia Adminiatration. The hon. gentleman, I think, would ahow a little more diacretion if he allowed rae to judge for myaelf of the boat way in which I should fulfil those promiaea. When, in the short apace of six montha, the Government have come down with a matured acheme, in volving auch important changes, and placed it before Parliament in the candid way in which they have aubmitted it, I think the country haa no good cauae to complain, either of time having been loat in the fulfilment of my promiaea, or in the manner of fulfilling them (Hear, hear.) And I think it ill-becomea the hon. gentleman — when he haa heard it declared that, notwithatanding what haa occurred in New Brunawick, we atill adhere to the baais on which the Governmont was formed— that all we ask is time to ascertain how our scheme can beat be carried into effect — and that in the brief period of a very few weeks we will be prepared to meet Par liament again, and declare the result of our enquiries- — I do say it ill becomes an honorable gentleman, professing to be in favor of constitutional changes, to get up 710 here and endeavor to create an unfounded prejudice against those who are thus shewing in every way their determination to discharge fully and promptly their duty to the country. The ho-.orable gentleman says ] have broken up the Liberal party. He says there was a Liberal party in Upper Canada and a Liberal party in Lower Canada, who -were acting cordially together, aid that I have destroyed the harmony which existed between tbem. I shall not enter irto that diacuaaion now. The time will come when it can be fully gone into without danger to public interesta, and I promise the honorable gentlema-; to give him his anawer. But I have thia to atate in tbe meantime to tbe hon orable gentleman, that I think it ia not for him at leaat to throw auch taunts across the table, when he recollects that in a apeech he made in thia Houae only laat aeaaion, on the announcement of thia Coalition, he atated that he could make no complaint as to the course I had taken ; that under the circum stances I could only act as I had done. (Hear, hear.) If he can find any act of mine in contradiction of tbe couise I took then, he has a right to blame me. But so long as I am carrying out in good faith the pledges I gave to the country, to my aupportera, and to this Houae, it ia not frora that honorable gen tleman at all eventa tbat any charge against me should come. (Hear, he-ar.) The hon orable gentleman says that the proposal for a union of all the colonies haa failed. I totally den/ it. (Hear, hear.) I am not prepared to admit — I do not believe — that the repre aentativea of New Brunswick, when the sub ject ia fiiny diacuaaed in PaiUauient, and the proposition has been preaented in all ita lighta, will reject it. When they do so, it will be time enough for the honorable gentleman to aaaert that the acheme has failed. Strange indeed would it have been had so laige a scheme auffei ed no check in ita progreaa — but stranger atill would it be were the promotera of the meaaure to abandon it from such a check as this. (Cheers.) The honorable member for Chateauguay is miataken alao when he aaaerta that the majority of the membera of the Nova Scotia Legialature are aarainat thia measure of Confederation. ^HoN. BIr. HOLTON— I believe ao. Hon. BIr. BRUWN— Having heard that the honorable member for Hochelaga had made auch a statement to this House — Hon. BIr. DORION— On the best authority. Mr. a. MACKENZIE— Give us your authority. Eon. Mr. BROWN— I think it better not to ask for the honorable gentleman's authurity, or to use any names in such a matter as this. But I wish to say that the moment I heard that the statement had been made, I tele graphed to a friend in the Nova Scotia Lc- iiislature, and received an answer entirely contradicting the statement which had been made. Hon. Mr. HOLTON— Why then don't they go on with the question ? Hon. BIr. BROWN — I apprehend it is for them to decide wben they shall go on — what is the right moment for them to go on — and not for the honorable member for Cha teauguay, who is entirely opposed to this measure. Hon. Mr. DORION— There is strong presumptive evidence in favor of my authority againat yours. Hon. BIr. BROWN— That I must leave to the House to judge. The honorable mem ber for Chateauguay aaya tbe motion made by the Hon. Attorney General Weat doea not meet the point at which it is aimed, namely, to bring this debate to a speedy concluaion. He says it may cut off amendments, but that it will not atop debate. But that ia an entire mia take. It is the only mode by which the debate can apeedily be brought to an end. Hon. Mr. DORION— Honorable gentle men oppoaite want to stop the debate, beaides stopping the amendments. That is the object. Hon. Mr. BROWN— If the honorable member for Hochelaga had waited till he had heard me out, he would have found I had no such meaning. With regard to the main proposition, honorable gentlemen may apeak aa long aa they like. So long aa the Houae doea not come to the concluaion that the time haa arrived for getting a vote upon tbat, they can talk. Hon. j. S. MACDONALD— Thank you ! Hon. BIr. BROWN— Of course, no one can prevent them. And, so far as I am con cerned, I can asaure the honorable member for Cornwall that I have no desire to prevent him or any one elae from being heard to the fulleat extent they deaire. But, aince the beginning of thia debate, we have conatantly seen incidental queationa raiaed and the aame membera getting up night after night to make long speeches upon them and kill time, to a degree never witnesaed before, I venture to aasert, in thia or in any other legialative body. And it is evident that if this motion were not put, we ahould have theae debates continued on'a variety of amendments, and 711 that this discussion would be kept up to an extent which would utterly frustrate the prompt accompliahment of thoae great pur posea for which thia Government was formed. (Hear, hear) Hon. Mr. EVANTUREL— As oneof the friends of tbe present Administration, I must say that I am surprised by the conduct ofthe Govemment and the extreme poaition in whioh they chooae to place themaelvea. For my part, I am in favour of the principle of Confedera tion, and one of thoae who maintain that by means of that principle the rights and liber ties of each of the contracting parties may be preserved ; but, on the other hand, I am of opinion, and 1 do not diaguiae it from myaelf, that it may be ao applied as to endanger and even destroy, or noarly ao, the righta and privileges of a atate which ia a party to thia Confederation. Everything, therefore, dependa on the conditions of the contract. As a friend of the Administration I can understand, as well as any one, that any Confederation and particularly such a one as this which is now laid before us, can only be brought about by means of a compromise ; and, on this account, BIr. Speaker — and it is probably needless to proclaim it here — I am ready and disposed to go to as great a length as it is possible for any man to go. I am alao one of those who, when we are called upon to unite, under the segis of a strong government, the different provinces of British North America, and when I see that the general interest calls for such a union, will give my cordial support to all who seek to eatabliah such a government. I shall always be prepared to meet them half way; but when the question assumes- a differ ent shape, aa it now doea, and when, in con sequence of the events announced to this Houao yeaterday, the Constitution propoaed to ua seema to concern none but the provincea of Upper and Lower Canada, I aay, BIr. Speak er, that the compromiae between the differ ent provincea no longer exiating, we are no longer called upou to be so generous. I say that if we admit that New Brunswick, by its recent repudiation, and Nova Scotia and Prince Edward Island are no longer parties to the contracts agreed on between the proviuces, and we have now to ask of England to modify the Constitution only in relation to the two Canadas, I say that the conditions are no longer the same as they concern us — (hear, hear) — and that I am on that acco uut much less disposed to allow the Governoient to proceed to present in England, as ttie basis ef our future Goustitubiou, tne resolatioas which we have been compelled to accept in very unfavorable circumstances. I do not hesitate in saying tbat the position assumed by the Government is a very dangerous one for themselves, and for tbose who would glad ly aaaist them to pass a good scheme of Coa- fedoration. If I understand aright, the in tention of the Governraent, in moving the previoua queation, ia to place their friends in the awkward poaition of not being able to move any modification of the plan. In our altered poaition we are going, therefore, to aay to England that we were obliged to sub mit to auch and such conoesaiona in order to come to an underatanding ; that the other provincea have backed out of the bargain, notwithstanding theae onerous conoesaiona and the compromiae which we were obliged to make, and which have not been accepted by the other partiea ; and that, in tbe face of all this, we come to pray that our Constitution may be altered so as to accord with those very same onerous conditions which we had accepted at the Quebec Conference. Why tie us down so strictly now ? Why should we not avail ourselves of the retrogression of the provinces to make alterations in the scheme which will be less onerous fbr us ? I think it my duty to declare that the Govern ment, in acting as they have done, place their friends in a very awkward poaition. For my part, Mr. SPEAKER, I am strongly in favor of Confederation, and am ready to aupport the Government in their efforts to release the chariot of the state from the position in which it now lies ; but I wish, ou the other hand — and I think it is but bare justice to say it — I wish that Blinisters should place us in such a position before the country, that I and all others may be able to say that we have done our best to improve the situation. This is why I so deeply regret that the Government have thought fit to take their present arbitrary attitude. (Hear, hear.) I acknowledge, with the Administration, that time is precious ; but we ought not, in avoiding one danger, to risk faUing into another. I acknowledge also that the course of events which has taken place within a few days gives reason to apprehend that Britiah rule in the pro vinces of British North America may cease altogether in a few yeara. I admit all theae dangera, Mr. Speaker; but on the other hand I do not conceal from myself that the extreme position in which we are placed does not tend to diminish them. On the contrary, I am greatly afraid that if public opinion be too deeply stirred by the imposition of a new 712 Constitution, without liberty on our part to amend it, the danger will be increased rather than diminished. So far. Lower Canada has sufficiently showed, by the voice of her leaders, that she ia prepared to make all possible con- ceaaiona; but after that, would it be prudent to render her dissatisfied by denying us the right of modifying the proposed plan in some degree. We have been obliged, in order to satisfy the public mind, to allege, and truly, that the Blinistry had been compeUed to make some conoesaiona to the provinces for the general satisfaction ; but now that the contracting parties to the plan of Confederation retreat from their engagements, after having imposed on us compromiaea and exacted conoesaiona, why ahould we, at a critical tirae like the preaent, proceed to aubmit our position to the Imperial Parliament, exactly as if the Pro vincea had been true to their pledges ? I am of opinion, BIr. Speaker, tbat this is asking too much of us, and that as the Lower pro vinces are evidently no longer in the mind to be united with us, we French-Canadians should be greatly in the wrong if we presented our caae with the aame conditiona aa we were led to accept, in compliance with the require ments of tbe aiater colonies. I think that both Upper and Lower Canada are now entitled to preaent themaelvea much more favorably before the Imperial Parlia ment, and that they may aay — " Theae are conceaaious whioh we had made, it is true, for the sake of the common good ; but tbe Mari time Provinces have now gone back from their engagements, and their present deaire is either to remain independent or to enter the American Republic I We have done our duty, and we are still ready to remain faithful to our engagements, which we had entered into with the contracting parties ; but as they gave us up, and the conoesaiona which we made are not now held by them to be auffi cient, we are come to plead our own cauae before you, and to tell you that the intereata of Lower Canada now require better guaran teea than we had been obliged to acoept from the Blaritime Provincea, for the aake of com ing to an amicable concluaion. We now come to requeat that England will be more favour able to us, and relieve ua from our difficultiea by making conatitutional changea lesa diaad- vantageous to us." In such a case, I believe that the Imperial Government would not venture to impose a Constitution on us with out our consent, but would be favourable to our wishes. That the French-Canadians are ftU loyal subjects of Her Britannic Blajesty, no one wiU doubt ; but it would be an act of folly on the part of English statesmen to impose on them a Constitution which they would reject or very strongly resist. I say this out of a feeling of loyalty, for I know that there are statesmen in England who understand that the loyalty of Upper and Lower Canadians most depend on their being satisfied with their new Constitution. How would it benefit England to give us a Con stitution whioh might suit her, as tending to perpetuate her rule in Lower Canada, but whioh would not be at the same time satis factory to the majority in both Upper and Lower Canada ? A spirit of discontent would be soon aroused which would cool our zeal in defending our country. This is a self-evident truth, intelligible to aU the world. I trust, therefore, Mr. Speaker, that if the measure of Confederation is passed, it will not be forced upon us, without the present House having an opportunity of weighing ita merits, and amending it. I am pre pared, I confess, to go aa far aa any man, and to make the greatest concessions, to extri cate the country from its difficulties, and come to a good understanding, that we may make sure of a Confederation with the immenae advantages which it might bring with it ; but I am bound to confesa, when I am told, in preaence ofthe eventa which have juat pasaed, that we must aubmit to the conditiona impoaed on ua by the contracting parties, who have, so soon after making it, refused to ratify it — I aay that I think it wrong to tie down Lower Canada abaolutely to the firat conditiona. I wiah the extreme poaition which the Govern ment have taken up in the face of the country may be productive of the greateat amount of good to it ; but, for my part, BIr. Speaker, I oannot help thinking and confessing that I have very atrong fears on that subject. It aeems to me that in the present circumstances, the Government ought to have granted the fullest opportunity, both to Upper and to Lower Canada, to make such suggestions as they might think fit, and not to insist on the adoption of the soheme in its present form. By such a proceeding they would have afforded members who have amendments to move a fair and constitutional way of setting them selves right in the opinion of their fellow- countrymen, by recording them at least on the Journals of the House. The position in which we are placed is tantamount in its effects to the cry of " all or nothing." But, Mr. Speaker, I have always been averse to such a system; and if we look back to our past 713 history, we shall find that it has never pro duced aught but lamentable dissension. (Hear, hear.) What ia the present cry of the Opposition as reg.irda the acheme of Con federation ? It is this : yo-i refuse an appeal to the people ; you most unjustly hurry on the debate ; you deny us all opportunity of moving amendments to the plan, or recording- them on the journals of the House ; and you arebenton iuipoaingon ua, without our consent, a Conatitution no detail of whioh ia made known to ua, and of the general tenor of which our knowledge is alao very iraperfeot. Now, Blr. Speaker, I beg to a&k Miniatera whether it would not be infinitely better fbr thera to quiet all theae apprehenaiona, and ailence all cora plaints? Why should they hurry on the debate, I do not aay unconatitutionally, but I do say with dangerous precipitancy ? Why should they b ir the moving of any amend ment to the acheme, puitieulirly aa there is nothing press'inn- in the occasion, and as the aspect of the question ia iu many respects al tered from wbat it wis previous to theae late eventa? I shall probably be told that I am wrong in saying there is nothing pressing in the occasion ; that, on the contrary, events render the immediate passing of the measure absolutely neceaaary ; that the defence of our frontier is a queation which muat be aettled at once — that there ia not a moment to be loat. Well, BIr. SPEAKiiR, I acknowledge, for my part, that if 1 vote in favor of the acheme of Confederation, it ia not out of a feeling of the neceaaity of setting about our defence ; ibr hitherto I have never had a thought that the Confederation of the provinces afl'orded any better meana of defending the frontier than that which we have at preaent — (hear, hear) — inaamuch as wo have already all opportuiiity of combined action to the fullest extent under the protecting arm of Enf^land ; butthiaseeina not to have entered the minds of the authors of the acheme. But I go further than thia, and usaert that the discusaion which ia d.iiiy going on ou the aubject of the proposed conati tutional changea is agitating the public inind very strontily. As at a former epoch of our history, auch changes neceaaarily tend to dis turb the minds of the m my ; and thia very natural agitation is attended with its dangera, and afforda another proof that conatitutiona are not the work of a day — that time, and even a great deal of time, ia necessary to settle the foundation of the aocial and conatitutional edifice of the best diapoaed of the nationa. The preaent Constitution of Great Britain is a proof of thia. That is certainly well establiahed , 91 but it Iiaa taken agea to bring it to what it now is. I say, then, that we should not be in too great a hurry, so as to raiae diacontent among the people, but that we ought to proceed with the more care and deliberation now that, as the Mini ters theraaelves acknowledge, wc are i i irarainent danger of war. If we are ao liable to have war, I say that we are not in the best condition to undergo a audden change of our Conatitution, and that far frora placing ourselves in a good attitude of d fence to raeet the imminent danger, we are perhaps weaken ing our position, by acting too atrongly or prematurely on public opinion. I aay then again, that thoae who would force our repre aentativea to accept the measure without amendmenta, for tbe bare reaaon that we mu^t prepare to defenu ouraelvea in arma without loaa of time, are acting without juatifiible or aufficient reaaon. I regret deeply that the previoua queation has been moved, ao as to reduce the friends of the Governraent to the necessity of voting on the measure before us without being able to move any amendment, aod that in the face of a total chunge of cir cumstancea I pray for the forgiveneaa of the House for having apoken on the subject, but I conaidered it a duty to proteat at once againat the proceeding of thu Govern, iient wnich I had not foreaeen. I shall vote there fore againat the motion before us, because I am in favor of amending the acheme of the Conatitution, laying on the Goveruuient the whole responsibUity for their conduct if tbey peraiat in denying us an opportunity of making aome modificationa in the piesent plan of Confederation. H..N. Attt. Gen. CARTIER— I am glad that the hon. meraber for the couuiy of Quebec haa, with hia cuatoraary caudor, ooramuuicated to ua hia apprehcuaions. I have listened to him with groat attention, and I am certain that there is no difl'ereiice between hia views and oura. We .a e per fectly agreed. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) 1 knew perfectly well, Blr. SPKAKiiH, before 1 rose to give explanationa to the lion. member lor the county ot Queb o and to the Houae, that the few worus 1 have just uttered would excite the laughter of the Opposition; for the monieui these hwo. gentlemen see a member who is uau; liy a aupporter of the Government, rise in this House and ^peak with some dejiree ol anima tion on any measure of the Goveinmeut, they are nady to conclude, jruiu his animation, that the hon. member is ojiposcd to the measure. I say again, Mr. Speaker, 714 the Government is, in the present case, perfectly of the same mind as the hon. member for the county of Quebec. If they now request that the House would hasten their deciaion on the grand queation of a Confederation of all the Britiah Provinces of this continent (not of the two Canadas, as tbe hon. member for the county of Quebec terms it), it is because they are desirous, as the Hon. Attorney General for Upper Canada observed yesterday, to despatch delegates to England, to lay before the Imperial Parliament the reaolutions adopted at the Conference. The Government wish to give effect to the compromise entered into between the Blaritime Provinces and Canada, to enable the Imperial Government to offer their coui:sel to the governments of the provinces, who have backed out from their agreement, and show them that the document to which they would have their sanction is a compromise. They would prove to Great Britain that if one of the Blaritime Provinces, or all of them, refuse to carry out the terms of the compromise after their solemn engagement with the Canadian Government to observe it — if, in short, they have failed to fulfil the terms of the treaty — Canada has been true to them, and desires its fulfilment. The Constitution prayed for is not a Constitution for the two Canadas only, as the hon. member for Chateauguay said it was, putting a false construction on the explanations of my hon. colleague the Attorney General for Upper Canada, but, on the contrary, a Constitution for all British North America. (Hear, hear.) If the Government now press the House for a decision, it is not to enable them to go to England and ask for a Con stitution for the Canadas, under a pretext that the other contracting provinces have failed to fulfil the treaty into which they had entered. By no means, Mr. Speaker. I have always had the interests of Lower Canada at heart, and have guarded them more sedulously than the hon. member for Hochelaga and his partisans have ever done. A MEMBER— A proof of that is your sending the seat of government to Ottawa ! Hon. Atty Gen. CARTIER— Well, BIr. Speaker, I do not hesitate to maintain that that question of the seat of government was decided favorably for Lower Canada. I have always maintained this, and I will maintain it always and against all comers. I now come to the observations ofthe hon. member for the county of Quebec, This is what the Government propose to do : We shall represent to the Imperial Government that Canada consented to compromises aud sacrifices, and that the Lower Provinces failed in rhe fulfilment of their part of the treaty at the last moment. We shall entreat the Imperial Government to offer their ad vice to the governments of those provinces, and we entertain a hope that the influenoe which England necessarily exercises over those colonies will have the effect of inducing them to reflect on their proceeding with reference to us. I pray the honorable member for the county of Quebec to lay aside his fears. I assure him that not a single member of the Government has the slightest intention of asking Great Britain to legislate on the Address which wo are to present, and to pass a Constitution for the two Canadas. Our whole intention is to lay before the Government of the Mother Coun try our position, as it now is, in consequence of the breaking of the treaty by the Blaritime Provinces, in order that they may bring some pressure to bear on them to bring about the Federal union which was designed. Even though the legislatures of those provinces should rue the part they took in the plan of Con federation, the adoption of it would be only a question of time ; for probably within twelve months they will amend their deci sion and accept the compromise. We say that as far as we are concerned, we can do neither more nor less than carry out the compromise ; that we are desiroua of acquit ting ourselves of the duty we owe to the Imperial Government, as they thought fit to sanction it in the despatch laid before this Houae, as well as by the honorable mention made of it in Her Most Gracious Blajesty's Speech from the Throne. It is of conse quence, I say, that we should show the Imperial Government that Canada, which contains more than three-fourths of the population of all the provinces on this con tinent, has not failed to fulfil her part in the compromise, but that the Blaritime Provincea it ia which have broken their sworn engagement, and that if the compro miae is not to be carried into effect, English supremacy over the American colonies may at no distant day be endangered. We trust that all these conaiderations may have a salutary effect, that they will dissipate the unfounded apprehensions of the Blaritime Provinces, and that hereafter the Constitu tion, based on the compromise which we 715 shall submit to the Imperial Governraent, will bear sway over the several English pro vinces on this continent, united in one great Confederation. (Hear, hear.) I can assure the hon. member for the county of Quebec, therefore, that the only purpose of the Gov ernment of which I am a member, in urging forward the adoption of the scheme submit ted to the House, is to despatch it to England in order that the Imperial Parliament may merely sanction the letter of the measure. 'The Government never had a thought of taking the House and the people by surprise. If we were to go to England and pray for a Constitution different from that which is mentioned in the Address, we should be branded with disgrace, and deservedly so, and should render ourselves unworthy of the position which we now fill. These reasons are sufficient, I think, to shew that there is not so much difference between the opinion of the Governmeut and that of the hon. member for the county of Quebec, as that hon. gentleman supposes. We are agreed on the point to which he takes exception ; and aa he haa declared that he would vote in favor of the new Conatitution if the Maritime Provinces continued to be parties to it, I have reaaon to trust that he will do so, aa the Government will be in no way bound to abide by that Constitution, unleaa the other con tracting partiea shall accept it. BIr. POWELL — I muat expreas my deep regret, Blr. Speaker, that the leader of the Houae should have been induced to submit to tbe Ilouse a motion of the character of that which you hold in your hands. (Hear, hear.) I distinctly avow myself a friend of the Administration, and as one anxious to assist them in carrying out the importantscheme they have undertaken; and while according to them the fullest confidence, I must express my regret that their course in relation to this question, in this House, has certainly not been what I would have advised or been inclined to support. They selected their own mode, in the first place, as regards the manner in which this debate should be conducted, and from that mode they have departed. I did feel that when, as between the Opposition and the Government, there was something in the nature of a compact, that compact should be carried out. (Hear, hear.) I think the Opposition has its rights and privUeges, and is especially entitled to have these respected by the Govern ment, who have so powerful a majority at their back. (Hear, hear.) When the Government departed from the understanding originally come to, as to the way in whioh the debate should be conducted, I believed that that departure was in the interests of the House and in the interests of the public. I do not hesitate to say it had my approbation, as far as my individual opinion was concerned. But, notwithstanding that it had my approbation, as tending to the convenience of the House and the advantage of the public, I did not feel that the Government were justified, ao long aa the Oppoaition were diasenting partiea, in departing from the original understanding. That was my first ground of objection; and I think, in the present instance, the Government are taking a still more extraordinary course. I do not know whether a case can be found in the records of our own Ilouse, or of the English House of Commons, where the leader of the House has availed himself of technical rules to prevent a question being fairly presented. Hon. Mr. DORION— To move the pre vious question to his own motion ! BIr. POWELL— I do not know if such a thing is usual, or if a precedent can be cited for it. All I can say is, that if a precedent can be cited, I regret extremely that auch a courae should be adopted on the preaent occaaion. We are here engaged in the discuaaion of a great conatitutional queation, with regard to which the Adminiatration have aubmitted to ua the reaolutiona of the Conference — I do not aay of aelf-constituted delegates, or that they acted without the sanction of the people — but certainly they have taken upon themselves a great responsibility, which I readily admit they have well fulfilled, and I am quite prepared to endorse their course, in the framing of this scheme, from beginning to end. They first of all adopt those resolutions at the Conference, and they then come down to this House and say : " Accept them in their entirety, without amendment, without vari ation, or the scheme falls to the ground." That may be all very well. It may be all very well to deny the right of an appeal to to the people. It may be all very well for us as a Legislature to arrogate to ourselves the right to change our whole constitutional system. That may be all very well. But, by this motion of the Hon. Attorney Gene ral West, they stop any gentlemen who dissent from their views from putting their 716 rpiuions cm record. (Hear, hear.) I think that ia going a little too far, and it is aa a friend of the Adminiatration that I expreas that opinion. Hon. Attt, Gen. BIACDONALD— We do not require vnur advice. Mr. POWELL- The hon. gentleman may accept it or not, aa he pleaaea Hon, Attt, Gen, BIACDONALD— I do not accept it. BIr, POWELL— Then he may take the otber alternative. I think the Houae and the Couutry haVe expended an enormoua degree of conaie'eratioo to thia Government, but I till the hon. gentlemen that if they continue the courae they are now purauing, a riactioo will take place in the llouae and the Ciiuntry. (Hear, hear.) I hope that this Houje ia not to drop down into being the mere ech i of the Executive — so that we shill oot have opinions of our own at all, or be allowed to offer any advice whatever to the Executive. If the hon. gentleman accepta iheae remarka in a hoatile apirit, he may do ao. All I can aay ia that 1 do not mean them to be ao received. But I con sider the courae taken by the Government thia aftoruouii ia a moat extraordinary one. Tho reaa^in aaaigned ia, that hon. gentlemen oppo.site have been offering a factioua oppo sition, and that they intend to continue it by moving motion after motion. But even if th?y do, I aak, can that involve above a couplj ot weeka more of diacusaion ? And I aay that it ia not for the credit or the character of the Government, thitto ahorten the diaeuasion they ahould take auch a courae aa this. I believe they bave under taken the great work they have in hand in a moat, pa riotic apirit. I believe tbat uiy hoo. iriend — though he rejecta my adviee — ia animited in ihe courae he ia taking by a p -rely patriotic apirit. But, while 1 believe that, I think he ought to accord to me the right of expreasing my opinion aa to the mode in wnich thia debate ahould be con ducted I do uot know whether the frienda of the A 'ininisiration are to be gagged aa well aa ita opponenta — (laughter) — whether it ia intended that we ahall all be prevented from exprwsaingour viewa. lint [ do trustthe leader of the Government will withdraw thia motion — (hear, hear) — whicii ia unworthy of him when he haa in hand thia grand aud magnificent project. He haa all the advan tagea he cju wish on hia aide, aod I would adviae hira to avail himaelf of thoae advan tages, and not to give — by pursuing a course that ia certainly unusual, extraordinary, and unprecedented — the enemiea of thia great schetne the opportunity of easing that it was forced down the throata of thia Legisature and of tho people of thia country. (Hear, hear.) I believe that he has the people at hia back — that they endorae hia acheme — that they are fully with hira — and that the large niajoritv of thia Houae truly repreaent the feelinga and wiahea of the jieople in endorsing the acherae. (ILar, bear.) I aay, therefore, that he can well afford to be raagnanimoua and liberal to the Oppoaition — who are feeble in nurabcra. though energetic in the atand they take — and that he can carry out this scheme without having to call to his aid the technical rulea of the Houae. (Hear, hear.) Hon. j. H. CABIERON— I de=ire to inquire whether the motion for the " previous queation" made by the Government, if carried, will throw any impediment in the way of the resolution of which I have given notice ? Of courae I know that it can be moved ; but if a diacuaaion ariaea upon it, I am afrciid we ahall not reach a vote upon it until the aeaaion ia closed. I hope the word of promise ia not to be kept to the ear and broken to the hope. Hon. Attt. Gen. BIACDONALD— I have no deaire to choke off' the honorable gentleman's resolution in any way. He will have an opportunity of raoving and pressing bis motion after the resolutions have been adopted. Hon. j. S. BLACDONALD— But it is quite clear that the moving of the previous queation shuts off aU amendments. Hon. j. H. CAMERON— My motion is not proposed as an atuendment. 1 propose to move it after a decision has been corae to on the question now before the House. It ia for the purpose of having an expression of the people'a wiU upon the Addresa, before it ia sent to the Imperiil authoritiea. Hon. j. S. BIACDONALD— WeU, tbat ia an amendment, but I wiU not argue the point juat now. Mr. M. C. CABIERON— I do not know that I can claim, like ray honorable friend from Carleton (Blr. PoWELLj, to be a friend of the Governraent, and ao any advice that I may offer will not be conaidered as coming from a warm friend of theirs ; but I appre hend that I do entertain that kind of friendly feeling for tbe Hon. Attomey General West that would induce me to advise him moat atrongly agaioat the course he has been in duced to adopt, had my advice been asked. I cau scarcely think that that honorable 717 gentleman would have adopted the policy which he baa become a party to, unleaa he had been urged on to it by hia colleagues in the Government. I am very well aware that thoae who are in tho habit of talking most loudly of the rights and liberties of the people, when they find themselves in places of poai tion and power, may frequently forget thoae righta. (Hear, hear.) 1 am quite satisfied that if the Honorable Presiaent of the Council had been iu oppoaition juat now, we would have heard thi course that is now adopted by the Government called the grossest tyranny and worat kind of outrage that could have been perpetrated upon a free Parliament such as ours. (Hear, hear.) And not only would we have heard such language on the floor of this House, but through that engine in Toronto which he moves with so much power, we should have had it aent throughout the whole country. There would not have been a man who voted for it who would not have been held up as the greatest foe to the rights and liberties of the people that could be imagined. (Hear, hear.) And now we find that hon. gentleman endeavoring to stifle, not exactly the discussion of the question, for we cannot be deprived of the right of speech, but to stifle the expression of the opinion of the House with reference to the merits of thia scheme in the only way it could be effective and valuable, and in a proper parliamentary manner. The motion now made prevents our taking the senae of the Houae aa to whether some modification of the scheme might not be adopted, or sorae other plan of union agreed upon that would prove raore advantageous. I have given notice of an amendment that I intended proposing in favor of a legialative union of the provinces, with provisions that the lawa, the language, and the religion of Lower Canada should not be interfered with ; that no legislation should take place for that section, unleaa that legialation waa originated. by a member from Lower Canada, and should not become law unleaa carried by a majority of the repreaentativea from that section of the country. I propoae thoae provisions in order that the rights of Lower Canadiana might be fully protected, and that their institu tions should not be in danger of deatruc tion, and that they might have no opportunity of saying that a change of this kind was desired for their injury rather than fbr their benefit, aa well as for the beat intereats of the provinces at large. I had intended to take the sense of the House upon this proposition, mainly lor the reason that a legislative union would be more economical and more stable. Tho commissioners wbo were sent out to Canada by the Iraperial Government to ascertain what defences were required, and wbat they would c, st, reported that £1,300,- 000 sterling would be sufficient for the pur poae. I find the local governments to be created under this Federal scheme are to receive for their working expenses no less a sum than $3,981,914; so that in twoyears, if tue expenaes of these local governments were aaved to ti e country, they would amount to a sufficient aum to conatruct all the defe-jces that are said to be neceasary for the protection of the country against attack from any quarter. But we are not to have the oppor tunity, it seems, of taking the sense of this House as to whether that would be better than the scheme submitted for our adoption. And we are also prevented from ascertaining whether the people of Canada approve of the scheme or not. It would seem that the Honorable Attomey General West, for whose ability I entertain a very high degree of respect, has foigotten the conservative cha racter that he haa heretofore so nobly main tained upon the floor of this House, and in forgetting that character, that he has alao forgotten the righta and libertiea ofthe people. I am not aurpriaed that thoae rights and libertiea should have been fcrgotteu and trampled upon by the Honorable Preaident ofthe Council and the Honorable Pro\iucial Secretary. They have been too loud-inouthed in their pretended championahip of those righta in timea paat to render them above suspicion of forsaking tbem no\, ; but I am surprised that the Honorable Attorney General Weat should go wilh them in stifling the voice of the people. (Hear, hear.j Aud 1 am very sorry to hear it stated that members of the Govemment are to go to England, there to appear carrying aa it were from the people of thia country to the Imperial Govemment, opinions favorable to Confedera tion. Now in truth they wiU not do so. They oannot do so iu point of fact, because they have not taken the senae of the people, and have refuaed even to allow Parliament to aay whether or not the scheme ahall be referred to the people, or whether aome other soheme would not be more acceptable, and much better in every way, than the oue now under conaideration. They find that the people of the Lower Provincea are strongly oppoaed to the acheme, and yet they propoae to go home and ask the Imperial Government to carry out the measure, though they weU know it cannot 718 be enforced upon the people of the Lower Provinces. If the great urgency which they profess to see for the carrying out of this scheme arises from a desire to have the defences made secure, why do not they ask Parliament for power to place the country in a proper position of defence ? Why do not they ask for that if it is so urgently demanded, and leave this great Confederation question in abeyance until the people in all parts of the country have had fair opportunity of under standing it in every point of view. They have not yet had that opportunity, and I think the honorable gentlemen on the Trea sury benches, in depriving them of that opportunity, and especially in doing it in the manner in which they are now doing, have taken a course which will redound to their own and to the country's disadvantage. The people only require to be awakened to the course that is being pursued, to understand that these opinions and views are to be dis regarded, or are of no consequence, to call forth that sentence of condemnation which will hurl honorable gentlemen on the Treasury benches from place and power, and cause namea honored in the paat, to aink into dia- honored oblivion. If the proper atepa had been taken, gentlemen from Lower Canada would never have been able to aay that repre sentation by population could not be safely given to Upper Canada, and would have no grounda for fearing that their righta would not be protected, and that therefore they muat reject it. If tbey refused to grant repreaent ation according to population when full pro viaion ia offered thom for the protection of their inatitutions, it would be without other reaaon than that of tbe aulky woman or the spoiled child, and I do not believe that tho representa tives of the people of Lower Canada aro made up of that kind of atuff. They only wiah to be aaaured that their rights are not to be inter fered with. If they deaired more, let thom reflect that the hon. member for Montmorency (Hon. BIr. Cauchon) in addreaaing the Houae the other evening, instanced the poaition in which the Engliah Houae of Lorda atood when the country waa in danger of being plunged into a revolution by their reaiatance to a juat popular demand. He gave ua to understand that that body might have been swept away before the indignation of the people, if it had not yielded to the pressure and allowed the Reform Bill to pass. If tbat was tbe case in reference to so strong and highly respected a body as the EngUsh House of Lords, let them reflect upon what might be the result of resisting a legislative union and forcing a scheme so expensive as the present one, so i'ull of elements of contention and dissolution, upon the people of Canada. If the people of Lower Canada, comparatively few in numbers, with the Governmeut to aid them, continue to persist in refusing to give the people of Upper Canada that whioh is their right, and which can do no -wrong to any other portion of the country, perhaps they will find that the people of these provinces will take the same stand that endangered the Houseof Lorda, in England, and the same reaulta foUow, and then it wiU be too late to aak or offer terms. The Honorable Attorney General West ought not to have allowed a free expression of the views of the members of this House to be stifled in the way that it is now being done. The Govem ment ought to have allowed the amendment to be put respecting which I have given notice, and also that providing for taking the sense of the people. Perhaps it was thought that the motion to be made by the honorable member for Peel (Hon. Mr. Cameron) would answer the purpose as well ; but it cannot do ao, be cauae it ia not to be propoaed until after this acheme haa been carried. That amendment, to be of any service to the purpose I had in view, ought to be made before tbese reaolu tiona are voted upon. After the Houae has expressed itaelf in favor of the reaolutiona, the repreaentativea become leadera to the people. They should lead ua, but wc should then be leading them by seeraing to pro nounce our opinion on the aubject before hand in favor of Federal union, although I am aatiafied that a majority, or at all eventa a very reapectable minority of this House, is not in favor of the scheme now presented, and most of the honorable gentlemen who have spoken have declared a preference for legis lative union. If the scheme is forced through the House under this motion for the previous question, no amendments being allowed to be placed on record, it will not appear to the Im perial authorities that there is that great amount of dissatisfaction with the soheme which is well known to exist, nor will it appear to them that any otber scheme might have proved more satisfactory to the people, giving, in their opinion, greater stabUity of govem ment, economy in management, and a means of maintaining our connection with the British Crown by better and stronger bonds, than is likely to be the case with a Federal Government. For these reasons Mr. Speaker, I repeat that I sincerely regret that the Honorable Attorney General 'West has been led to make the motion 719 which has been placed in your hands. (Cheers.) Hon. Mr. McDOUGALL— I am not sur prised, BIr. Speaker, that honorable gentle men who are opposed to the policy of the Government on this question, and desirous of overthrowing it, should feel a little disappoint ment at the course that has been announced to-day. But I cannot understand how hon orable gentlemen who are friendly to that policy, and desire that it should prevail, should, at this stage of the discussion, find fault with the course of proceeding which we have felt it our duty to propose. Sir, we have been dis cussing this question now for nearly four weeks, and I am sure no honorable member will venture to deny that the discussion has, for the last ten days, dragged very heavUy ; that there has been a marked disinclination on the part of honorable gentlemen opposite to go on with it. Hon. Mr. DORION— No, no. Hon. BIr. BIcDOUGALL — The honora ble gentleman says "No," but the fact is that adjournments have been moved several times as early as half-past nine o'clock, becauae no honorable gentleman was ready or inclined to speak against the measure. Hon. Mr. DORION— Only once, and that on account of the illness of the honorable member for Brome. Hon. BIr. McDOUGALL — The honor able gentleman is mistaken. On another oc caaion the honorable member for Hochelaga himself moved the adjournment at an early hour, because his friends were not ready to go on with the discussion, and hon. members who were in favor of the scheme have several times been obliged to speak, when they were not disposed to do so, in order to fill up the tirae and drag the diacuaaion along. Well, air, the Honorable Attorney General Weat stated to the Houae yesterday, in such terms that uo one could have misunderstood him, that the Government felt it to be their duty to avail themselves of every parliamentary expedient for the purpoae of ascertaining the opinion of thia Houae upon the question as promptly aa posaible. To-day the announce ment haa been repeated, and good and suffi cient reaaona given for the adoption of this policy. The hon. members for Carleton and for North Ontario complain that there has been a departure from the usual practice of this House in making thia motion, and charge ua with atifling discuaaion; but theae honor able gentlemen aurely do not need to be in formed that tbia motion does not stop the debate, The House can discuss the " pre vious question" to any extent. Strictly, perhaps, honorable members are limited to giving reasons why the question should not now be put, but among those reasons are all the arguments yet to be adduced, pro and con, on the main motion. BIr. POWELL— Then what good wiU it do? Hon. Mr. McDOUGALL— The good it will do is this : it will prevent factious and irrelevant amendments, and enable us to get a decisive expression of the opinion of the House upon the real question before it. (Hear, hear.) It is all very well for the honorable member for North Ontario to tell us that he wishes to propose his scheme of a legislative union, with local legislation controlled by the members of each province ; but sir, it happens that he occupies a seat on that side of the House, and not on this. It is the duty of the Govemment, who are re sponsible to Parliament and to the people, to propose their measures, and if the honorable gentleman can convince the House that those measures are not adapted to the circumstances and interests of the couutry, we shall be obliged to leave this side of the House, and then tbe honorable gentleman from North Ontario can come over here and submit his scheme to Parliament. (Hear, hear.) But as we are here, and have taken it upon us to submit these resolutions, we are determined to obtain as early as possible (without, how ever, preventing any honorable member from expressing his views upon tbem) a vote of this House. The outcry raised by gentlemen oppoaite againat the propositions of the Gov ernment to facilitate the discussion by giving the whole time of the House to it, proves that delay is their real object. If tbey have any arguments to offer against the scheme, they have had ample opportunity to present them. They have thought proper to talk of everything but the merits or demerits of the scheme itself, until the patience of this House, and I think also of the country, is exhausted. I am happy to believe that a very conaider able majority of the members of this House are ready and willing to vote yea on tbe quea tion, and they ought not to be any longer de tained from doing so, especially in view of circumstances that have ariaen on thia aa well aa on the other aide of the Atlantic, to which my colleague the Hon. Attorney General has already directed the attention of the House. Hon. BIr. EVANTUREL— I understood thiit the Government had stated that the question of Confederation was an open one, 720 I never understood that they had stated that amendments could not be proposed. It was to be treated not as a purty question, but the fulleat latitude was to be allowed, as if in committee of the whole ; but now the Governineut shuts down upon friends as well as opponents. 1 think their course most illog ical, and I would like to have tL.e Hon. Pro vincial Secretary explain it. Hon. iMr. McDOUGALL — I apprehend there aro few honorable gentlemen in the House whoae impreaaiona on the aubject are siiuUar to thoae of the honorable gentleman. ( Hear, hear.) it was fully understood by the Houao ti'at the scbeme waa brought before Parliament aa tbe reault of the Conference of all the colonial govemmenta, and aa a Gov ernment meaaure. I think, air, it was further diatinctly atated that being in tbe nature of a treaty, it waa absurd to suppoae that it would becoinpetentforanyofthelegialaturestoamend the scherae, because the moment the door ia thrownopen to amendmenta in one legialature, the aame privilege would be claimed by each of the others. What kind of a acheme would it be after each legialature had tinkered it to suit ita own viewa, and what length of time does the honorable gentleman think it would take to an ive at a corainon agreement if that course were pursued ? In the very nature of things, whether thia ia the best or the worat scheme that could have been deviaed, we can not get around the fact that it ia of the nature of a treaty, aid, therefore, muat be voted upon by a siraple yea and nay. (Hear, hear.) It is in that view that the Govemraent have aub mitted it to thia House, and it ia upon that view that the verdict of thia House must be pronounced. As I have already stated, the deteiiniuation to which the Governraent has come ia to preaa the main motion, pare and siraple, upou the attention of the House, and to uae every legitiraate parliamentary meana to get a decision, aud by that decision we are prepared to stand or fall. I hope there will be uo misunder&tandiug on the part of honor able raembers. It ia not the intention ofthe Government, in any manner, to deprive hon orable gentlemen of the opportuuity — tho fullest opportuuity — of exprea.-'ing their viewa ou thia sciieme. But what we do intend to prevent, if we can, ia the attempt to divert the attention of the House from the reaolutiona of the Coufereup. to propositiona like that ofthe honorable member for North Outaiio, who desires to aubmit another and a totally differ ent aclieme, which he knowa well must be re jected by every member of the proposed Con federation. Tbis proposition must be dis cussed, if discussed at aU, in some other way than as an amendnient to, or substitute for, the scheme of the Quebec Conference. Hon. j. S. BIACDONALD— I think, sir, that the large majority of the members of thia Houae will agree with me that the proposition made by the leader ot tho Gov ernment to prevent amendmenta being aub mitted by moving "the previoua queation," haa taken ua all by aurprise. 1 thiuk this House should hold this step to be a groaa breach of the understanding which was en tered into at the time it was agried that the House should be consideied as in com mittee of the whole, with you, sir, in the chair. For it was then fully understood that though no amendmeut would be allowed to be adopted, if the Government could prevent it, yet there would be no objection to their being moved in the ordinary way. It waa therefore underatood that tbia Houae waa, for all practical purpoaea, io Coraraittee of the Whole, and aa "the previous quoftion" could not be moved in Committee of the Whole, it waa conaequently out of order to move it now. I would ask hon. gentlemen on the Treasury benches, if tbey did not aolemnly enter into a compact of that nature with thia Houae ? If they committed an error in de ciding to retain the Speak ^-R in the chair on the conditiona referred to,they are now taking advantage of their own wrong. Sir, the Op position proper have abstained from placing on the paper any notice of amendmenta. 'They found that several amendmenta which embraced their viewa were to be moved by gentlemen who were friendly to the Admin istration. Thoae gentiemen could not sup pose for a moment that their motiona were to be choked off, whatever might be the intention of ths Government in relation to similar amendments if propoaed from thia aide of the Houae. But •' the previous ques tion," thua moved, applica ruthlessly to friends and foes. To quote the language of the honorable member tor Carleton : — " It is uow quite clear that they (the Government) are going to put the sa;. e gag on their frienda that they devised for their opponenta." (tlear, hear.) Jjet us enquire who are those who compose the Admiuiatration, and who, after violating their aolemn agreement, now venture to trample upon the righta and privil -'gea of the repreaentativea of i he people in thia Houae? 1 need only rei^ark that nine membera of thia Coveinment, aud who were in the Administration bei'ore the Coali- 721 tion was formed, had a vote of want of confi dence recorded against them by this same House, for aets of malfeasance, which must be fresh in the memory of honorable members, since which time they have evaded an appeal to the country in order to test whether their new and strange combina tion would be ratified by tbe people. And these gentlemen who have hatched up a coalition, by inviting three members of tbe then Opposition to join them on the most monstrous teriiis ever known in any country, are at tbis mom ent proposing to ask tbis House for a vote of credit, and for plenipotentiary powers to authorize them in England to speak forthe people of Canada. My hon. friend from West York (Hon. Mr. Howland) stands in a different position from his two reform col leagues, fie came generously to the aid of his friends who first joined the Coalition, but he stipulated that he must first go to his constituents. On a reference to hia speech at the hustings, it will be found he said in effect, that tbe scheme of Confederation was now before the country — that he knew no more about it than they did themselvea, and tbat he must aay there were featurea in the acheme which he did not like. I acquit him of being in the aarae category with hon. gentlemen who have been voted down by thia House, becauae he has obtained by his election a quasi authority to deal with this grave subject. But what have the others attempted to do, BIr. Speaker ? How dif ferent is their conduct and tbeir practice to-day from what they promised would be their conduct towards the House at the com mencement of the debate ! And how widely have they strayed from the programme laid down at the time tbe Coalition was formed ! I shall read for the information of the House what were the views of the hon. member for South Oxford in 1864, when he stampeded himself, and took with him a large portion ofthe reform party to tbe enemy's camp so unexpectedly, and upon so short a notice : — Mr. Bko-^tn asked what the Government pro poaed aa a remedy for the injuatice complained of by Upper Canada, and as a aettlement of the aec tional trouble. Mr. MAODONALn and Mr. Gai.t replied that their remedy was a Federal union of all the British North American Provinces, local mattera being committed to local bodiea, aud mattera common to all, to a general legialature conatituted on the well-underatod principlea of Federal Government. Mr. Brown rejoined that this would not be acceptable to the people of Upper Canada aa a remedy for exiating evila ; | that he believed that Federation of all the Prov- 92 incea ought to come, and would come ahout ere long, but it had not yet been thoroughly consider ed by the people — (hear,hear) — and even were this otherwiae, there were ao many parties to be con sulted, that ita adoption waa uncertain and remote. (Hear, hear.) Hon. Mr. BROWN— What ia tbe date of that ? Hon. j. S. BIACDONALD— Th^ hon. gentleman knows very well that it is found in the ministerial explana'ions at the clcse of last sessioi, little more than six months ago, Blark the words, Blr. Speaker. BIr. Brown then stated that Federation had not been con sidered by tbe people, and that its adoption was therefore uncertain and remote. Is it because he found a good opportunity of getting into power, and because he visited the Lower Provinces, and negotiated, and got explanations from them, that the period so remote aix months ago must now be con aidered immediate ? He aubatitutea the word " immediate" — for " remote" a most extra- ordi ary perveraion of worda : — Mr. Brown was then asked what his remedy was, when he stated that the measure acceptable to Upper Canada would he parliamentary reform baaed on population, without regard to a separ ating line hetween Upper and Lower Canada. To thia both Mr. Macdonald and Mr. Gai,t stated that it was impossible for them to accede, or for any Government to carry auch a measure, and that unless a basis could be found on the Federation principle suggested by the report of Mr. Brown's committee, it did not appear to them likely that any thing could be settled. Further on I read : — Mr. Brown accordingly waited or. the Governor General, and on his return the memorandum ap proved hy Council and by the Governor General was handed to him, and another interview ap pointed for 6 p. M., Mr. Brown stating that he did not feel at liherty either to accept or reject the proposal without consulting with hia friends. In that memorandum I find tbe following passages : — The Government are prepared to state that immediately after the prorogation, they will address themaelvea, in the moat earnest manner, to the negotiation for a Confederation of all the British North American Provinces. That failing a successful issue to such negotia tions, they are prepared to pledge themselves to legislation during the next aession of Parliament — (hear, hear) — for the purpose of remedying exist- ing difficulties by introducing the Federal prin ciple for Canada alone, coupled with such provi sions aa will permit the Maritime Provinces and 72^2 the North Weatern Territory to be hereafter incorporated into the Canadian syatem. Then the record proceeds : — Shortly after six o'clock the partiea met at the same place, when Mr. Brown stated, that without communicating the contents of the confidential paper entrusted to him, he had aeen a sufficient number of his frienda to warrant him in express ing the belief that the b-alk ot his frienda would, aa a compromise, accept a meaaure for the Feder ative Union of Canada, with proviaion for the future admission of the Maritime Colonies and the North 'West Territory. To thia it was replied that the Administration could not consent to waive the larger question ; but alter consider able discusaion, an amendmeut to the oriijinal pro posal -was agreed to in the following terms, sub ject to' the approval, ou Monday, of the Cabinet aud of His Excellency : — •' The Governmeut are prepared to pledge them selves to bring in a measure, next session, for the purpose of removing existing difficulties, i.y intro ducing the Federal principle into Canada, coupled with such provision aa will permit the Maritime Provincea and the North West Territory to be in corporated into the same ayatem of Government." The language of theae quotationa cannot be misunderstood ; for nothing can be clearer thau that the amaUer acheme, that is, the scheme for the Federation of Upper and Lower Canada, was then promised and con templated aa the one which was to precede that now under consideration. Again I quote from a apeech of the Premier made in the other House on the introduction of the reaolutiona now before ua : — The honorable member (Hon. Sir^E. P. Tache) here gave a history of the several changes until the Maohonald-Uorion Administration died, as he stated, of absolute weakness, falling under the weight they were unable to carry. Their suc cessors ^the TAOuli-MACnonAi.D Gov'erameut) were not more successful, and beiug defeated, were thinking of appealing to the couutry, which they might have done with more or less succesa, gain ing a constituency here and perhaps losing auother elsewhere. They had assumed the charge of ahairs with an understanding that they would have a right to this appeal, and while they -were conaulting about it, they received au intimation from the real chief ot the Upposiiion (Mr. Brown), through one of their own triends, to the etiect that lie wa.s desirous of making overtures to them with the view of seeking to accommodate the difficulties . The honorable geutlemi^n and aome of bis friends then came into contact with the leaders of ihe Government, aud it waa agreed between them to try to devise a stheme which would put an eud to tue misuiideratauUiugs, andatthe aame time aecure for Canada aud the other provinces a poaition which would ensure their f'uiure safety, and pro cure them the respect and confidence of other na tiona. They arranged a large acheme and a amaUer one. If the larger failed, then they were to fall back upon the minor, which provided for a Federation of the two aectiona of the province. Here is a recent declaration by the Pre mier that they had arranged a large scheme and a smaller one. Is it not important to us in Upper Canada to know what the nature of the latter scheme is? Assuredly, it is not too much to aak that the littie acheme shoald be left with ua, whUe they run away to Dow ning-atreet with the large one. We miuht be profitably employe I in tho meantime in digesting the various detaila which promise ao much aolace and contentment, and which for ever ia to settle all sectional difficulties between Upper and Lower Canada. I hope the supporters of the Adminiatration will inaiat at once upon the smaUer bantling being left with us,— this Houae agreeing to pay all expenae of ita care and protection during their abaence. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) Inatead, therefore, of fulfilling their pro miae they boldly propoae fo their reform foUowera tbe scheme which the hon. member for South Oxford had declared to be prema ture, aad which aix months ago he inaiated muat be poatponed to a remote period. It is scarcely possible to find words aufficiently atrong to characterize in proper terms so fla grant a breach of a compact as the one which I have been deacribing. It waa of course well known, last summer, that the several legislatures of New Brunswick, Nova Scotia and Prince Edward Island had contemplated a legialative union of their provinces, and a resolution wua paaaed by each body author izing delegatea to be appointed from their reapective govemmenta to meet for that object. Charlottetown having been selected aa the place of meeting, the several delegates assembled there. Instead of permitting that Convention quietly to arrange a scbeme such as was contemplated by their legislatures, and permit reaaonable time for ita promulgation, or a declaration of its failure to be made, the gentlemen on the Treasury benches be thought themselves of a plan by which to scatter the Charlottetown delegates, caring nothing for the disappointment which auch an attack muat have neceaaarily created among the people of the aiater provincea. I bluah to think that a fearful reaponaibility attaches to this Government for their interference with an arrangement which was to make the Maritime Provinces one people. But not satisfied with their visit to Charlottetown and breaking up the scheme whicii was 723 being discussed there, they now coolly ask us to give them authority to proceed to Dow ning-street to report the utter failure of their own grand scheme, which, as I remarked in a former debate, they yet hope to manufacture into a live constitution for these distracted- provinces, through Downing-street influence. (Hear, hear.) Itis well known thatour finan cial condition is truly alarming, and instead of proceeding with the legislation of the several measures now before tho House, and submit ting, according to custom, the Budget, so that the real condition of our affairs may be fully exhibited to the people, the gentlemen on the Treasury benches have suddenly come to the concluaion, not only to withhold this im portant information, but, forsooth, we are asked to pass a vote of credit to be accounted for at the next aeasion. A prorogation ia shortly to follow, and the country will be lef*^ in a state of uncertainty as to its future, un til it shall please these gentlemen to return from their mission. When we consider the effect which the blandishments of the Trea sury benches but too frequently produce upon members sent to this House to carry out certain avowed principles and measures ; when we see the class to which I allude vio lating the promises made to their consti tuents and going over " body and bones" to a Government they were elected specially to oppose, we need not be astonished shortly to learn that influences and blandishments in higher quarters will have the like effect on the gentlemen opposite when abroad, who will ever be ready to find a plauaible excuae for any groas betrayal of the truata repoaed in them by pliant and aubaervient followers. The avowed object for the immediate proro gation of the session is the imminent danger which threatens this province, and yet we are kept in the dark aa to the real cauae for alarm. We are told, however, that a large outlay, but the amount is not atated, ia to be devoted to fortifying certain portions of Canada by the Home Government; and that we are to be asked to contribute an unknown sum of money towarda tbe same object. But when we aak for more definite information, we are met by the aaaurance that it woula not be for the public interest to afford furthei information just now. We are told to wait patiently and to be content with the fact that certain gentlemen on the Treasury benchea are to proceed to England with the view of arranging the amount to be appropriated by Canada for its defence, and towards the maintenance of a more effective militia or ganization then we have heretofore been called upon to make. I maintain, sir, that the understanding in respect to such contri butions could be as well arrived at by means of dispatches and correspondence between this Government and the Colonial Office. (Hear, hear.) I protest against the transfer ence of the negotiations on these matters to Downing-street, before we obtain some more satisfactory replies to the questions we have addressed to the gentlemen on the Treasury benches. The representatives of a people overburdened with heavy taxes, have a right to insist on knowing the limit beyond which the gentlemen on the Treasury benches sbould not consent to make this province liable. We know that it is a diffi cult matter to obtain money in England at present and we are not even informed ofthe terms on which the Finance Minister is now borrowing. We have had no information upon this queation. We are kept in igno rance ofthe poaition in which we are to be placed. Now, I think that the policy of the people of thia country should be to vote what they think they can bear, and no more. There is no member of this House, there is no man in this country, I beUeve, who is unwilling to give hia quota of taxes for the work of defence; but there muat be a limit to every thing. (Hear, hear.) The principle laid down by three of the honorable gentlemen on the Treaaury Benches whom I now see on the other side of the House, when with myself they were membera ofa former admi niatration, is as sound now as it was then ; and if the force of the American army two years ago was not such as to induce us to recommend, by way of guarding against dan ger from that quarter, large outlays for defence, I do not see why my old colleagues should now conaent to entertain a proposal involving an enormous sum of money at the preaent time. Now, I ahall read extracts from a Minute of Council, dated 28th October 1862, iu reply to the Duke of Newcastle's suggeation that we should raise fifty thousand volunteers : — The proposal of Hia Grace to organize and drill not less than 60,000 men is not now for the first time preaented to the province. The mea sure prepared hy the late Government and rejected by the Legialature, contemplated the formation of a force to that extent, and Your Excellency's ad viaera cannot diaguise their opinion that the pro vince is averse to the maintenance of a force which would seriously derange induatry .and tax its resources to a degree justifiable only in periods of imminent danger or actual war. The people 724 of Canada doing nothing to produce a rupture with the United States, and having no knowledge of any intention on the part of Her Majesty's Government to pursue a policy from which so dire a calamity would proceed, are unwilling to impose upon themselves extraordinary hurthena. They feel that, should war occur, it will he pro duced hy no act of theirs, and they have no incli nation to do anything that may seem to fore shadow, perhaps to provoke a state of things which would be disastrous to every interest ofthe province. Thia waa the opinion of the honorable gentle men only two yeara ago. (Hear, hear.) Hon, BIr. HOLTON— How many of them are on the Treaaury benchea now ? Hon. j. S. MACDONALD— I have al ready said that there are three of those gen tlemen there. (Hear, hear.) Well, to go on a little further. His Grace recommended direct taxation, to which we replied : — Without entering into a discussion of the rela tive merita of direct or indirect taxation, Your Bxcellency'a adviaera feel that it -would not be prudent, suddenly or to any large extent, to impose direct taxation for military purposes. This is not the occasion for adopting a principle hitherto unknown in the fiscal policy of the pro vince, and assuredly this is not the time for plung ing iuto an experiment for which the people of the province are unprepared. No more serious mistake can he committed than to conduct an argument upou the supposition that the ability ot the Canadian people to sustain taxation is greater than has hitherto been acknowledged in the fiscal arrangements of the Government. And I may remark that the condition of the country at thia moment ia much more cala mitous than when thia report waa made. When the hon. member for South Oxford (Hon. Mr. Brown) waa on hia feet a few minutes ago, he spoke ofthe prosperity ofthe merchants in UppOx^ Canada, and said the condition of the country was not such as to justify the remarks ofthe hon. member for Chateauguay (Hon. Mr. Holton). Sir, he forgot to speak of the situation of the farmers, of whicii I shall speak presently more at length. This report goes on further to say: — The wealth of the country is in ita lauda. If the people are in the enjoyment of comparative wealth, it is so invested as to be not readily avail able for the production of a large money income. Your Excellency's advisers believe that no gov ernment could exist that wonld attempt to carry out the auggestion of His Grace for the purpose designed. That was the language of our Government when asked to train fifty thousand men and to familiarize tbem to the use of arms. (Hear, hear.) I feel that the pressure which has been brought to bear upon the Imperial Government by the Goldwin Smith politi cians — by the Manchester School — to get rid of the colonies, is having its effect. Tbe telegram received to-day indicates that the burden of the defences is to be borne by the colonies, as the telegram now before me atatea : — ¦ Earl RuaaELL regretted the diacusaion, and atated that the Government declined to make any move ment while the Canadiana declined to take mea- suraa themaelvea ; but aa they now showed a different diapoaition, the Q ovevnment comes for ward to assist them . Mr. Speaker, I ask this House, if the boncrable gentlemen on the Treasury benches have made any propoaala to the Home Gov ernment, whether we are not entitled to know what they are ? I aay that we ought not to leave tbia House till we have advised them in thia matter — till the opinion of thia Houae, repreaenting the people of thia country, has been elicited. (Hear, hear.) We are the peraona whp ought to adviae thera in thia matter; and wihout seeking that advice, they are taking a atep in ad vance of their legitiraate duty. (Hear, hear.) 'The Dukeoi Newcastle aaked uain theaarae deapatch to place the money required for increaaed military organization in Canada beyond ihe domain of Parliaraent ! Such a propoaal waa met in fitting terms, becom ing a, people enjoying Britiah Jrecdom. We could not submit it to Parliament, and we did not It was said in the aame deapatch that the credit ofthe country waa endangered in the marketa of Europe, and that if we were wilUng to ahow that we were prepared to defend ouraelvea, if we went to thia vaat outlay, we would materially assist in the raaintenance of our credit abroad. Our reply to that was, that — The maiuteuance ofthe provincial credit abroad is undoubtedly an object which the administratora of the affairs of the province ahould at any coat accompliah. Your Excelleucy'a adviaers aubmit that their varioua measures demonstrate the sin cerity with which they are atriving to preserve the public credit unimpaired. They contend, however, that not the least important of the agencies to be employed to this end ia the exhibi tion of a due regard to the meana at the command ofthe province. They hold that they are more likely to retain the confidence of European capi- taliats by carefully adjuating expenditure to in come, than by embarking in schemea, however 725 laudable in themaelvea, beyond the available reaourcea of the Canadian people. [It being aix o'clock, the Speaker left the chair before the honorable gentleman con cluded his remarks.] After the recess, Hon. Mr. HOLTON said— With the con sent of my hon. friend from CornwaU, I de sire, before the debate is renewed, to call the attention ofthe Hon. Attorney General West to the matter of the previous question which he has moved — to recall to his recollection the .atatementa that were made when the agreement waa come to that this debate should bo conducted in all respects as if the House were in Committee of the Whole, and to appeal to his sense of justice to adhere to the letter and spirit of that agreement. It will be remembered that, on behalf of hon. gentlemen sitting on this side of the House, I objected very strongly to the proposition to consider these resolutions as a aingle re aolution, and inaiated that they were of a natuie that required them to be conaidered in Com mittee of the Whole Houae. The hon. the lea Ier of the Government objected to that on thia ground. He aaid that the reao lutions were a treaty — I do not think the position sound, but I am not combating that just now — and that the Government were bound to bring all their influence to bear to paa them in their entirety; and in reply to some objection made by myself, be aaid hon. gentlemen would have no difficulty in putting their views upon record by araend raents moved to the scheme. I thought at the time tbat that was placing us at a very great disadvantage, and that we were entitled to bave the propositiona conaidered separately and a vote taken, yea or nay, on the several resolutions ; but I waa overmled and the agreement was come to, which you, sir, de clared, rising in your place, to be that the debate should be conducted in all respects as in Committee of the Whole. Well, I have two thinga to urge — flrat, that in Committee of the Whole the previous question cannotbe moved ; and second, that a distinct assurance was given by the Government that amend ments could be moved to the resolution. These are the very words of the hon. gentle man as given in the official report, which has been thia moment put into my hands : — Hon. Atty. Gen. Macdonald aaid " no." The propoaition aubmitted to thia Houae ia — That an Addreaa be submitted to Her Majesty, praying that a bill should be paased based on these reso lutions. AU amendments might he moved to that one resolution. It would be the aame thing, in fact, as to move them upon each reaolution aeparately. Now, the hon. gentleman says that we may not move amendments, and none can be moved if be succeeds in getting the previous question affirmed by the House. I state — and I am sure I have only to state it to him to convince him ofthe justice of it — that a persistence in moving the previous question will be simply a violation of the assurance the hon. gentleman gave to the Hcmse, and of the distinct understanding arrived at by the House at the opening of the debate, and stated by you, sir, from the chair. (Hear, hear.) Am I to understand that the hon. gentleraan adheres to his motion ? Hon. Atty. Gen. MACDONALD— I certainly do adhere to it. Hon. .Mr. HOLTON— And has the hon. gentleman nothing to say to my objections ? Hon. Atty. Gen. MACDONALD— To what ? Hon. Mr, HOLTON— In reference to cutting off amendments by this motion. Hon. Atty. Gen. MACDONALD— Why did not the hon. gentleman put them ? Hon. Mr. HOLTON— We reUed upon the assurance given by the hon. gentleman that there would be no attempt to cut short oiscusaion, no attempt to prevent a full and free expreaaion of the opinion of the Houae upon every feature ofthe scheme. I ask him now again if he intenda to adhere to that declaration ? (Hear, hear.) Hon. Atty. Gen. MACDONALD— I will, Blr. Speaker, on reflection, make a few remarka in answer to the hon. gentle man He speaka as if it ~ was a great concession to the majority of this House and to the Governraent that the arrange raent was made at the opening of the debate. Why, sir, it was no concession whatever to the Government or to the majority of the House. (Hear, hear.) Acting on behalf of the Government, and with the full approbation of ray colleagues, I made a motion that an Address should be ]iresented to Her Majesty, praying 11 er sanction to the resolutions adopted at the Quebec Conference. That motion was quite parliamenta i-y in its character, and there was no parliamentary reaaon whatever why it ahould be considered in Committee of the Whole. The hon. gentleman could not, by any rule known to 726 parliamentary practice, force us to go into committee or require us to discuss any one of these resolutions by itself. It was then quite open to me, according to the usage of the House, to make a motion for an Address to Her Majesty for the pur pose stated, and it was not as a favor to the Government that the arrangement was raade to discuaa it aa if the Houae were in Committee of the Whole. On the contrary, it was a conceaaion of the Govern ment to the minority in the Houae ; for I stated, of my own mere motion, that although I had a right to proceed in the ordinary manner with the Speaker in the chair, and to reatrict honorable gentlemen to a aingle speech in accordance with the rules that govern debate — that although thia was my undoubted right according to parliamentary practice, yet, for the purpose of allowing the fulleat aud freeat diacusaion, I auggeated that the same rule should obtain as if the House were in Committee of the Whole, when every member could speak twenty times if he felt ao diaposed, and present his views fully on all the points of the scheme. That was the propoaition made by the Govern ment ; it was a fair, liberal, even generoua one. But how were we met by honorable gentlemen opposite ? We were ready to proceed with the discuaaion at once, and to present the aubject to the Houae without delay. But it waa atated that that would be unfair — that the membera of the Govern ment should flrst make a atatement, and allow it to go to the Houae aud country, so that neither should be taken by sur prise in a matter of so much importance, and that honorable gentlemen might have the fullest information upon which to make up their minds. We did make our stateraent, and when aaked for a week'a delay in order that these speeches might be fully considered, we consented to it. Sup posing that after this postponement the debate would go on at once, we gave hon. gentlemen opposed to the scheme a whole week to consider our remarks, to prepare themselves for debate, to work out objectiona to our argumenta, and pick out al' the flawa they could find in the scheme itself. We did thia becauae we thought it fair, and be cauae we believed hon. gentlemen were ain cere in their professed desire to have the fullest information upon the subject. Well, the debate began, it haa gone on now for three weeks since that postponement, and aa my hon. colleague the Hon. Provincial Secretary haa said, it haa dragged on wearily, with no prospect of an early ter mination. And how have we been met by hon. gentlemen opposite ? Has it been in the aame apirit that actuated the Government throughout the debate? We aaked them to come forward, and honeatly and fairly, in the preaence of the House and country, to diacuaa the scheme; but in'itead of ao doing, they have deliberately trifled with the queation and waated the time of the House. (Hear, hear.) Hon. Mr. HOLTON— No, no ! Hon, Atty. Gen. BIACDONALD— The hon. gentleraan aa a man of honor cannot deny it, as a man of candor he cannot deny it ; and if he should deny it, his character as a man of honor and candor would sink in the estimation of thia Houae. (Hear, hear.) I say it distinctly that this was the plot of hon. gentleraen opposite, to delay the con aideration ofthis subject. Their policy waa to wait, like BIicawber, for "aoraethingto turn up," to aee what would happen favor able to them in New Brunawick, to learn what would be done in Nova Scotia, and to embrace every pretext of delay that pre aented Itaelf The hon. gentleman was playing, deliberately playing, a trick. He talked about a base trick having been played upon the Oppoaition, but waa it not a baae trick in him not to diacuaa thia queation, but to put it off upon every poaaible excuae, to in- teirupt hon. gentlemen when they diacuaaed it, making inuendoea, auggesting motives for delay, trying to disparage the "acheme and ouraelves in the catiraation of the Houae and country, and getting othera to say wbat he would not dare to aay himaelf (Hear, hear.) That was the plan of the hon. gentleman. He complains of not being able to raove an araendment, but the Oppoaition attempted to move none. It waa friends of the Govern ment who offered the only amendments yet presented. The policy of the Oppoaition was just this — they wiahed to spend the whole of March and the beat part of April in the general discusaion upon my motion ; and then, when they could do nothing more to nauaeate the Houae and diaguat the country with the aubject, when they had wearied the members and made the reporters sick with their talk — (laughter) — they were to spend the remainder of April, all May and June, and run the debate well into summer, upon the amendments they intended to propose 727 one after another. (Hear, hear, and laugh ter.) It is because these honorable gentle men have not endeavored honestly and can didly to discuss the question, but have played the game of prolonging the debate to midsummer and preventing the House coming to a final decision upon it, that the Government have taken the step now pro posed, and have said to these hon. gentlemen : " Here, you have had a month to move amend menta and make speeches. You have been allowed to sit here discussing the queation every night during that time, and aometiraea till one or two o'clock in the moining. You have not fairly discussed the scheme, nor moved any araendraents to it. You appear, on the contrary, determined to obstruct the measure by every means in your power. You have deliberately laid a plot to throw it back with the view of defeating it in this under hand manner. We are not going to allow that, nor should be worthy of the position we hold as a Government if we did allow it;" and, sir, I should be unworthy of the char acter the hon. gentleman (Hon. Mr. Holton) gives me of being a good parliamentary strategist, if I allowed this plot of preventing the House coming to a vote to succeed. (Hear, hear.) Now, in resorting to mea sures to prevent the success of this game played by the Opposition, we have not taken hon. gentlemen opposite or the House by surprise. We gave them from the middle of winter almost to the beginning of apring, and the opening of navigation, to discuaa the queation and propoae amendmenta ; and when we aaw they were determined to waate the time of the Houae and country indefi nitely, I came down yeaterday and, on behalf ofthe Government and with the full appro bation of my eoileaguea, stated fairly and frankly that it was of the greateat conae quence, the utmoat conaequence, to the beat interests of this country, that thia queation ahould not be allowed to drag on before Parliament, but that a vote ahould be taken without delay, in order that we might be able to tell the sister provinces and inform Her Blajeaty that the contract we made with them, the arrangement we entered into with the govemmenta of thoae provinces, had met the full approbation and consent of the Parliament and people of Canada. (Hear, hear.) And I gave fair notice that the Government considered the recent political events in New Brunswick, and the state of affairs in that province, called not only for action, but prompt action by this House ; and that every proper and legitimate means known to parliamentary practice would be taken by the Government for the purpose of getting this Ilouse to come to a full and final decision upon the question. (Hear, hear.) We have never taken hon. gentlemen by surprise. On the contrary, we have allowed them every latitude in this debate, and have given them fair notice all through of what we intended to do. But how have we been met by them ? Have we been met in the same spirit of frankness and sincerity ? No — and I say it without hesita tion, we have been met throughout in a spirit of obstruction and hostility ; and, instead of discus.-lng the question fairly on its merits, hon. gentlemen opposite are dragging on the debate slowly for months, in order to tire out the patience of the House and country. (Hear, hear.) I ask the House whether tbey will permit such a shabby, such a miserable game to be played successfully ? Will they allow a question so closely identified with the best interests of Canada to be thrown acrosa the fioor of the House like a battle dore between the hon. membera for Corn wall and Chateauguay ? Will they allow these hon. gentlemen to trifle with it, not so much becauae they are oppoaed to the acheme itaelf or diaapprove of ita general principlea, aa becauae of those by whom it is presented for the adoption of tbe House. (Hear, hear.) Sir, there has been some little misapprehension aa to the efi'jct of the motion I have propoaed to the Houae, which it ia aa well ahould be removed. It has aimply and only thia effect — that it does not prevent hon. members expressing their views fully and freely upon the subject, but calla upon every hon gentleman to give — if I may uae an Americanism — a atraight and aquare vote upon the queation, and to state plainly whether or not he approves of the scheme of Confederation aa a whole. (Hear, hear.) As I stated when I opened thia debate upon my motion, and as haa been over and over again stated by several of my colleagues, we agreed with the governments of the sister proviTces upon a future Con stitution for the whole of British North America, and we ask this House to approve or disapprove of that Constitution. We told the House that wo had made this treaty with the sanction of Her Majesty and of the Imperial Government. 7'28 Hon. Mr. HOLTON— With some quali- fic-ations. Hon. Atty. Gen. MACDONALD— No ; we told the House that we had the previous sanction of Her Majesty and of Her Blajesty's representative to our meeting. The Confer ence met and sat under this authority, and we worked out a scheme for the Constitution of the provinces. That scheme may be a good or it may be a bad one ; but whether it be good or bad, we have a right to ask this House to approve or disapprove of it, to accept or reject it. We had the sanction of Her Majesty and the Imperial Govemment to our meeting — because tbis House knows that the union of these colonies is a matter of great Imperial as well as of great local interest — and under that sanction we have worked out a Constitution and made a bargain with the other provinces. We have pledged ourselves as a Government to come down to tbe Cana dian Parliament and say — " Here is a Con stitution which we have agreed upon for fhe future government of these provincea. We have agreed to submit it to this House, just as the governments of the other provinces have agreed to submit it to their respective legislatures. We have a right to ask the members of this Houae whether in their judt^- ment it ia a scheme that, with all the faults and imperfections it may have, ought to be entered into by the Parliament of this coun try We exercise this right, and ask you to declare by your votes, yea or no, whether we were right in framing thia meaaure, and whether it is auch an one aa ought to be adopted by this Houae." (Hear, heai.) This, iVlr. Speaker, is the position of the Govern ment ; and what though amendments should be carried— what though the amendment of Which the honorable member fbr North On tario haa given notice should aucceed, and the Houae ahould declare in favor of a Lesjialative instead of a Federal union (supposing the honorable gentleman did preaent aud "carry such a motion) what good' could it poaaiblj do J The contract that we entered into with the other provinces would be broken; thia Legislature would be violating the sdemu engagement under which we are to the other colonies, and we would have a Conatitution drawn up which none of the other provinces would adopt. We know that they would reject it— we know that Lower Canada would go as one man against it. (Hear, hear ) Hon. Mr. HOLTON-WeU, the other provincea go againat this. Hon, Atty. Gen. MACDONALD— At all events the governments of the other pro vincea will aubmit the queation to their legis latures and take their opinion upon it, and we have a right to aak thia Houae — " Do you or do you not approve of it ? • If you diaap prove of the scheme altogether because of its general principles, why vote it out. If you think that it ought to be a Legislative and not a Federal union, why vote it out. If you think it wrong to create a life peerage instead of an elective Legislative CouncU, why vote it out. Vote it out for any or all of these reasons if you like ; but give us at once an honest, candid and fair vote one way or the other, and let the sister colonies know without delay whether you approve of the arrange ment or not." (Hear, hear.) And, sir, amendments are a mere matter of folly and absurdity. (Hear, hear, and ironical cheers from the Oppoaition.) Honorable gentlemen opposite cry "Hear, hear." I do not of course speak of the merits of any propoaition in amendment for a legislative union, or an elective Legislative Council, or for any other change in the provisions of the scbeme ; but I state this in all earnestness, that for all prac tical purposes the carrying of any amendment to this scheme is merely to lose the only chance of union we can ever hope to have with the Lower Provincea for the sake of some fancied superior Constitution which we cannot get any of the colonies to agree to. (Hear, hear.) All we ask this House to do is what the other branch of the Legialature has already candidly done, to discuss the matter fairly and honestly upon its merits, and then to come to a vote upon it. Thoae who think the Conatitution likely to place the country in a worse poaition than it now occupies, will vote againat it. Those who think, on the other hand, that it ia an ap proximation at any rate to what ia right, that it will bring the colonies together into closer communication, that it wUl form the basis of a powerful and enduring alliance with England, will vote for it with all its faulta. (Hear, hear.) Now, as to the consequencea of thia motion which I have proposed, thia Houae ought to know that not a single speech can be cut off or shorn of its dimensions by it, and that every honorable gentleman can dis cuaa the queation of Confederation, giving, as tuUy aa be deairea, the reasons why he will vote foror against the scheme proposed. All the motion will do, all tho Govemment wish ^ clo, IS to keep the question before the Mouse; and the honorable member for North Ontario can speak as well to it as if he had 729 his amendmeni in his hand, and can, as he usually does, make as able a speech as if there were half-a-dozen amendments proposed to it. The whole scheme, in fact, is as muoh in the hands of tho House, and as fully before it and open to discustion, as it was on the day I moved its adoption. AU ' this motion wUl do is to prevent honorable gentlemen opposite playing the trick which I have spoken of — drawing the disoussion away from the main queation before the House, getting up debates upon the powers of the General Government and of the local governments, upon an elective or an appointed Legislative Council, and upon all sorts of side issues upon which the changes would be rung night after night and week after week, through the spring and summer, till the House became weary with the surfeit of talk, and the country disgusted. (Hear, hear.) That, sir, is the aim and object of honorable gentlemen opposite, but I hope thia House will not be so foolish as to faU into the trap they have laid, aud I know honorable members are fully aware of the deaigns of these honorable gentlemen. They cannot complain that they have not had an opportunity of moving amendments. 'They have had three weeks to do it, and they have not yet moved one or given notice of one. Then, sir, what will be the consequences, on the other hand, if the previous question is not carried? If it is rejected, and the main question is not put, Confederation is defeated. And I wUl at once inform the House that to vote that the main question be not put, will throw Confederation over forever, and forever destroy the last hopes of a friendly junction between the colonies of British North Amer ica. (Hear, hear.) Hon. Mr. HOLTON — Why the last hopes ? Hon. Atty. Gen. BIACDONALD— Be cause if we reject now the agreement come to by all the governments of all the provinces, we can never expect to get them to meet again to make another. Hon. BIr. HOLTON— But one of these Govemmenta has ceased to exist. Hon. Atty. Gen. MACDONALD— The hon. gentleman knows perfectly well that the govemments of all the provinces are pledged to the scheme, but that the legislatures have not yet expressed themselves upon it. If any of them appear now to be hostile to it, that feeling may disappear when it is fully ex plained to them. Even the Hon. Attorney Gen eral Palmer, of Prince Edward Island, may himself become convinced of its desirability, 93 and vote for it. We cannot say how those legis latures will vote, but what we propose fo do is to lay our action before the Imperial Gov ernment, and ask it to exercise its influence with the other colonies in securing the pa.?- sage of the scheme. And I have no doubt that if the Blether Country gives friendly ad vice to the sister colonies in that kindly spirit in whicii she always gives it, if she points out that in her view this scheme is calculated to aerve, not only our interests, but the general interests, welfare and prosperity of the Em pire, I am quite satisfied that the people of those colonies, whatever may bo their looal feelings, will listen at all events with respect, and perhaps with conviction, to the advice so given by the Imperial Government. I have no doubt, indeed I am satisfied, that if the Imperial Government gives t'nat advice, it will be in the spirit of kindness and maternal love and forbearanc3, and that if England points out what is due to ourselves as well as to the Empire, and shows what she, in her exper ience and wisdom, believes to be best for the future interests of British North America, her advice will be accepted in the spirit in whioh it is offered, and sooner or later with conviction. (Cheers.) For all theae reasons I think the members of the Government would be wanting in their duty in this great straij;, this great emergency in our affairs, if they did not press for the decision of this Houae as quickly as possible. (Hear, hear.) Why, there is the question of defence, which the honorable member for Cornwall admits to be of the most pressing iraportance, that re quires immediate attention and demands that further delay in dealing with this scheme should not be allowed. Hon. Mr. HOLTON— What has defence to do with this scheme of Confederation? The honorable gentleman has stated, over and over again, that it has nothing to do with it. (Hear, hear.) Hon. Atty. Gen. MACDONALD— The honorable gentleman is mistaken. The two questions are intimately connected. Hon. BIr. HOLTON— Why, wben we aaked for information the other day as to what itia proposed to do in the matter of defence, the honorable gentleraan said that that was a different subject from this altogether. (Hear, hear.) Hon. Atty. Gen. MACDONALD— The honorable member for Hochelaga certainly did move a series of reaolutiona asking for in formation upon this subject, which we refused, because they were offered for the purpose of 780 obstructing and delaying the debate on this scheme. (Hear, hear.) When I say that there is an intimate connection between these two questions of defence and Confederation, I mean this : that the progress of recent events — events which have occurred since the com mencement of this debate — has increased the necessity of immediate action, both with re gard to defence and to this scheme. Honor able gentlemen opposite havebeen in the Gov emment — they have been behind the acenes — and they know tbat the queation of the de fence of Britiah North America ia of great and pressing iraportance, and they know that the queation of the defence of Canada cannot be aeparated from it. And honorable gentle men have been informed, and will find by the scheme itself, that the subject was considered by the Conference, and that it was arranged that there should be one organized system of defence for the whole of the provinces and at the cost of the whole. Well, it is now of the greatest iraportance that some members of the Government sbould go home imme diately, in order that England may know what the opinion of Canada is upon this question of Confederation, as well as upon the question of defence. (Hear, hear.) Hon. j. S. MACDONALD— Is that what you want them to go for ? Hon. Atty. Gen. MACDONALD— Yes. The aeaaon ia faat approaching when it will be neceaaary to commence theae worka — the only aeaaon during which they cau be carried out at all ; and that man is not true to his country, that man is not a true patriot, who, for the sake of a petty parliamentary triumph, for the sake of a little party annoyance — for the con duct of the Opposition amounts to nothing more — would endeavor to postpone some defi nite arrangement on this important question of defence. (Hear, hear.) Yes, Mr. Speaker, this opposition is either one or the other of two things — -it is either for the sake of party annoyance, or it ia a deliberate deaire to pre vent anything being done to defend ouraelvea, in order that we may eaaily fall a prey to an nexation. (Cheera.) I do not like to believe that honorable gentlemen oppoaite entertain any wiah to become connected with the neighboring repubUc, and therefore I am forced to the conviction that they are actuated by the miaerable motive of gaining a little parliamentary or party success. There are only two alternatives of belief, and one or the other of them must be correct. (Hear, hear.) I believe the honorable member for Chateau guay is in his heart strongly in favor of a Federal union of these colonies ; but because it is proposed by honorable gentlemen on this side of the House, he cannot and will not support it. (Hear, hear.) So long as my honorable friend the Hon. Finance Blinistersits here on these benches, so long as Mordecai sits at the King's gate — (laughter) — and so long as the honorable gentleman sits on the opposite instead of this side of the House, so long wUl he find fault and object. Hit high or hit low, like the flogged soldier, nothing will please him. (Renewed laughter.) But I believe the House will not sanction such pitiful conduct as honorable gentlemen op posite exhibit. I believe we will have a large, an overwhelming majority, to sustain us in the course we have adopted ; and that we should be highly blameable were we to exhaust the patience not only of ourselves, but of our supporters, by allowing this conduct to be pursued much longer unchecked. These, sir, are my answers to the questions of the hon orable member for Chateauguay. (Cheers.) Hon. BIr. HOLTON— I have the satis faction of having provoked from the hon. gentleman altogether the best speech he bas delivered during tbis debate. So much I freely admit, and I think hia own followers will confess that this is the first time he has spoken with anything like his usual spirit and force during the whole debate. 'This was perhaps inevitable, because in hia other speech, and notably in his introductory speech, he labored under the consciousness that the scheme was at variance with his own antecedents, and was not approved of by anybody. We had, therefore, at that time none of that vivacity, none of that strength of declamation, none of that humor with which his brief speech this evening has overflown. But, sir, to return to the point to which I called your attention when you resumed the chair. To that point the hon. gentleman has not beeu pleased to speak. He has gone off on all sorts of subjects He has said he will not hold himself bound by the arrangements which he himself entered into at tbe opening of the debate. He says he does not consider himself so bound ; and I must be allowed to say a word or two in reference to his excuse for his de parture from that agreement. He says that 1 and other hon. gentlemen on this side have been instrumental in wasting the timo of the House. Emphatically I deny that statement. (Hear, hear.) That we did re sist the unfair attempts on the other side of the House to change the order of the debate 731 which was deliberately established, whereby the debate waa to be resumed every evening at half-past seven, I do not deny. I frankly admit it, and claim that we were justified in so doing ; at all events I am prepared to take the responsibility of having contributed my share to that result. But as to the debate on the main motion, I defy the Hon. Attorney General to indicate one hon. gentle man on this side who has wasted a single mo ment ofthe time of theHouse — who has spoken beside the question — and who has spoken iu order to postpone the question and to protract the debate. And for proof of this assertion, I venture to say that when we get the extended reports of this debate, it will be found that the space occupied by the speeches of honorable gentlemen who support this meaaure ia at hast twice that which is occupied by the speeches of hon. gentlemen on this side of the House. (Hear, hear.) Hon. Atty. Gen. CARTIER— That's just the complaint made on this side, that you will not speak. (Laughter.) Hon Mr. HOLTON — Oh, we are wasting time by not speaking — that's the charge ! (Laughter.) It is quite obvious that the honorable gentleman's leader would never have made a blunder of that kind. We have wasted the time of the House by not speaking ! Well, sir, it is a very novel way of talking against time, by holding our tongues ! (Laughter.) But, Mr. Speaker, I am not going into the general debate. I shall not proceed with this matter further. I rose for the purpose of appealing to the sense of justice and common fairness of hon. gentlemen. That appeal has been disre garded. 'They adhere to that unfair step of theirs, and of course we must meet it as we can. (Hear, hear.) Hon. Atty. Gen. CARTIER — BIr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman found fault with what I stated just now. But what I said was quite correct ; and that is, that we wanted to give as free scope to the debate aa could be afforded on both sides of the House. When, however, hoc. gentlemen on the other side had their opportunity to speak, they were never ready ; and we all remember that on two occasions they actually moved the adjournment of the House, one night at nine o'olock, and again, when the hon. member for Brome (Mr. Dunkin) was unable to continue his speech, at ten o'clock. Some hon. gentlemen on this side had promised to speak, and I well recollect that the hon. member for Lincoln (Mr. BIc- Gi-verin) had to come fo their relief, and filled up the space in the debate, in order to give the opportunity to the Opposition of being ready on the following day. (Hear, hear.) Hon. BIr. DORION— I cannot allow tho Hon. Attorney General West to run away from the question by one of those " artful dodges," for which he is so well known in this House and the country. (Hear, hear.) The question put to him by my honorable friend the member for Chateauguay (Hon. BIr. Holton) was, whether he did not agree to the debate being continued on certain terms, and in such a way as that full oppor tunity should be given to hon. members to move their amendments. It is very well for the Attorney General West to say that that arrangement was made, not for the benefit of the House, not for the advantage of the public, not for the convenience of honorable members, but out of mere courtesy by the Government. Sir, the proposition was his own. The hon. gentleman himself came to the House and stated tbe manner in whioh the debate should be conducted, actually proposing that the rule which prevented honorable, members speaking more than once on the same question, with the Speaker in the chair, should be auapended, in order that every member should have tbe same freedom of discuaaion as though we were in Committee of the Whole. That was the propoaition ofthe Hon. Attorney General West himaelf, thinking it the most proper way to conduct the courae of the debate. He went further, and atated it aa hia opinion that after the debate commenced, it should go on each day after half-past seven, leaving the afternoon sitting for the other busineaa of the Houae. Thia waa another of the hon. gentleman's voluntary statements. Then, going on, what do we find? We find the Hoo. Attorney General West, immediately after, in answer to my hon. friend on my right (Hon. J. S. BIacdonald), saying : — Hia idea was that after the debate commenced, it ahould go on eaeh day after half-paat aeven, leaving the afternoon sitting for other buaineaa . And again — The Buapenaion of the rules he proposed was for the protection of the minority, by allowing each member to apeak and atate hia objectiona aa often as he pleased. »•••••»' « • » i » 2^ sgreed that Mr. Came ron's propoaition was a reaaonable one. The 732 , Government would, in the firat inatance, lay their eaae before the House, and through the preaa be fore the countty, and then allow a reaaonable time for the country to judge of the caae aa pre aented by the Government. The lion. Presideot of the Council alao said : — Although the Hon. Atty. Gen. had proposed that the diaeuasion ahould continue day after day,he had not auggeated for a moment that the vote should be hurried on ; the debate at any period might be adjourned, if deemed necessary, to allow time for the expression of public opinion. There were 130 members, and almost every member would desire to speak on the queation ; and he thought clearly the proper course was to devote every day, after half past seven, to the diacuaaion, to allow all membera on both sides to state their views, that they might go to the country and be fully considered. This, then, waa tho manner in which the Government brought the propoaition before the House — the matter was to be discussed without hurry, and the whole of the 130 membera on the floor of the House were to be allowed to express their opinions fully, and their viewa were to go to the country to be fully weighed and consideied. After that we heard the Hon. Atty. Gen. Weat aaying : — Of course it was competent to the House to vote against the Address aa a whole, or to adopt amendments to it ; but, if they did so, it would then be for the Government to consider whether they wonld press the scheme further on the atten tion of the House. Still further, the Hon. Atty. Gen. West said : — All amendments raight be moved to that one resolulion. It would be the aame thing, in faot, aa to move them upon each reaolution aeparately. This, Blr. Speaker, occurred during the preliminary discusaion. Hon. Atty. Gen. MACDONALD— That is right. Hon. BIr. HOLTON— But you back out of it now. Hon. Atty.Gen. CARTIER— Why did you not move ? Hon. BIr. DORION — I was saying that this occurred in the preliminary discus sion which took place on the floor of the Houae when the Hon. Atty. Gen. Weat himaelf brought in the resolution upon which the diacuaaion of thia meaaure ahould be baaed. We proposed that, as the best protection for the minority, wo should go into Committee of the Whole; but the Hon. Atty. Gen. West said that we should have all the advantagea, and more, too, than if we went into committee. He promised that we should be allowed to express our views as often as we pleased, while we would have the beneflt of greater order being kept, with the Speaker in the chair, than would be possible in Committee of the Whole. We relied upon this agreement being kept, and believed that not only would members be allowed to express their views without check, but that the public would have time to hold meetings and petition. We there fore consented at once to the eight days' adjournment, which was suggested by the honorable member for Peel (Hon. J. H. Cameron), and which waa conaidered by all a moat reasonable propoaition. Well, the Government took eight days to send their speeches to the country, and four days after the debate was resumed, we find the hon orable member for Blontreal Centre (Hon. Mr. Rose) putting a notice on the paper to do away with the solemn agreement which was entered into on the floor of Parliament between the honorable members on the min iaterial aide and the minority in opposition; (Hear, hear.) The honorable gentlemen on the Treasury benchea cloaed the expoaition of their caae on the Bth of February. On the 16th the debate waa resumed, and on the 21st — Saturday and Sunday intervening — juat two nights' debating having taken place in tho meantime — the honorable mem ber for Blontreal Centre went to every mem ber to get a round robin signed for the pur pose of breaking a solemn agreement, which had been entered into in good faith, between the Government and the minority. (Hear, hear.) Having failed, after two nights' dia cussion, to carry the resolution of which he had given notice — after, I say, the honor able member for Blontreal Centre had been foiled in his attempt to carry that motion — ¦ the Hon. Atty. Gen. West put a notice on the paper to the same effect, thereby assum ing the responsibility of all that had beon done in this respect by the honorable member for Montreal Centre. And in the absence of the Hon. Atty. Gen. West, the Hon. Atty. Gen. East moved that resolution for breaking the agreement which he and his colleagues had solemnly entered into. (Hear, hear.) And, sir, not only did they attempt to break this agreement, so as to prevent discussion on the part of tho minority, and to stifle the expression of public opinion, which was 733 manifesting itself at public meetings, which were being held everywhere throughout the country, and making itself known to this House through the right of petition ; but we now find the hon. gentlemen taking advan tage of ever/ rule and technicality known to parliamentary practice to accomplish the same object. (Hear, hear.) And, forsooth, the hon. gentlemin rises ia his place and attempts to justify himaelf by calling the Oppoaition a factious opposition, and by charging it with wasting the time of.the House. 'They are anxioua to strangle the diacusaion after five or six days' debate, when more time had been employed b}' hon. membera on that aide than by hon. members on our side, having already succeeded in forcing on the discussion at half-paat three in the afternoon, inatead of half-paat seven, according to the agreement. And now, sir, we are witneaaiug the extraordinary spec tacle of a Government moving the " previous question " to their own motion. (Cheera.) Well, indeed, raight the hou. member for Carleton (BIr, Powell) aak if there could be found a precedent for auch a course ! Hon. gentlemen who can accompliah auch a thing aa the " double ahuffle" can never be mueh embarrasaed for tho want of a precedent. They wbo have so long, by meana of parliamentary tricks, succeeded in maintaining their poaition, arc nowinventiug a new dodge in order to choke off discuaaion on this queation. Already, sir, have we aeen, on one celebrated occaaion — in the Corrigan case — the Hon. Attomey General West rising in his place and moving a resolution, and afterwards inviting his own foUoweis to vote against it. (Cheers.) And now, following a similar course, he is proposing tbe " previous question," the object of whioh is, in ordinary parliamentary practice, to prevent a vote being taken on the main proposition. Whenever an hon. gentleman does not want to vote in favor of the question before the House, and dares not vote against it, he moves or gets a friend to move the " previous question," which is that the question be now put, and votes against it, (Hear, hear.) Such is the invariable practice in England, where parliamentary uaage is better known than in thia country, and we here find a govem ment resorting to a similar dodge in reference to a measure of their own, and the moat important meaaure that was ever brought before the country. Hon. j. S. BIACDONALD— And a strong govemment, too. Hon. BIr. DORION—Yes, and a strong government, as my honorable friend says — a government which boasts of having au immense majority, and of having the power to carry such measures as- it pleases. It is such a government as this, I say, which is dragging its supporters still deeper through the mire — which is saying to them : " You shall vote for the scheme without putting your views ou record, and without giving the people an opportunity of expressing their opinion in the usual constitutional manner." (Hear, hear.) But what do they gain by such a course ? They acknowledge it will not stop diacusaion. And thus they will not gain a aingle hour or a single minute in point of time. But this they will gain — if their supporters are blind enough to follow them — those who are pledged to their constituents not to vote for the scheme without first aubmitting it to the people, will be forced into eating up all the promiaea that they have made whih in the preaence of their constituenta. It may be posaible that they will find some who will thus, following the example shown them by the Government, give the denial to their solemn promises, and turn their backs on the pledgea they have given — they may find, I say, a few of their followers doing thia ; but I ahall bo much miataken if the majority of the membera of thia Houae who have gone to public meetings iu the country — who have met their conatituenta face to face, and who have faithfully pledged themaelvea to vote for an appeal to the people, will be dragged, aa the honorable gentlemen on fhe other side attempt to drag them, into doing that which their own consciences aud their promises to their conatituents alike forbid. (Hear, hear.) It will bo diacreditable to this House,' should honorable raembers be found in such a position — if, hy a mere dodge of this kind, Blinisters themselves can not only break their own promiaea, but compel their supporters to break their pro mises as well. I hope, for the honor of thia House and the country, there will not be found one of thoae who have promised to vote for an appeal to the people, recording his vote for the question now before the Chair. Let it bo clearly understood, that every honorable member who votes for the previous question declares against any amendment being moved to the main motion, 734 against any expression of opinion on the part of the members of this House being placed on record. In voting, too, for the " previous question," he also votes to con done the breach of faith of which honorable gentlemen have been guilty towarda this House. And, sir, honorable gentlemen must have sunk very low in the estimation of their own friends, when two or three of their warm eat supporters have to rise, one after the other, to charge them, as was done this afternoon, with a breach of faith, and with not having kept their promises to this Houae and to the country. (Hear, hear.) In my opinion, tho honorable gentlemen would have shown a little more dignity and self-respect had they not thus exposed them selves to the t-aunts of their own friends. But I cannot believe that the House will consent to be led away by the dexterous man agement of tho Hon. Attorney General West — by the fictitious indignation which he is alwaya ready to summon to hia aaaiatance, and with which he has burat upon the Houae to-day. In reapect to the factiouaness of the Oppoaition, I repeat that I never wit- neaaed in thia Houae such a spectacle as that which haa juat been diaplayed by hon. gentlemen on the other aide. Never, in my life, did I hear a atrong government riaing in ita place, and upon a queation of this mag nitude, involving the dearest interests of the country, exclaiming — " You shall acoept the scheme aa a whole; you ahall not even have the opportunity of moving a aingle araendraent." The honorable gentleman, air, treated aa an abaurd proposition that of the honorable member for North Ontario — which ia also the deaire of the Lower Provincea — for a legislative union, with guarantees for the lawa, language and reli gion of the inhabitanta of Lower Canada, inatead of a Federal union. But, air, ia it not the caae that a great many members of thia Houae, nay, some in the Adminiatration, would prefer that to the propoaed acheme of Federation ? Is it not also the caso that in Nova Scotia, Hon. Mr. Howe has aet bis face againat Federation, and ia a atrong advocate of legialative union, which the honorable gentlemen oppoaite treat aa an abaurdity. Well, sir, whether it is an absurdity or not, every honorable member of thia House ought to have an opportunity to put hia views on record, and of saying — " I want a legislative union, and not a Federation; I want an elective, and not a nominative CouncU." (Hear, Hear.) Sir, the honorable gentle men say that a legislative union is an absurdity, that an appeal to the people on this question is alao an absurdity ; but this is only in keeping with their whole course of conduct, which is to treat the people of this country with contempt, and altogether to disregard the wishes of their representatives in Parliament. (Hear, hear.) Not only do they treat this side with contempt, but they treat with even greater contempt their own friends, whom they are trying to coerce into approval of their unconstitutional course of conduct. (Cheers.) Hon. j. S. MACDONALD resumed his speech, which was interrupted at the dinner recess, by saying : — His Grace proceeds to point out a course which, if followed, would most assuredly secure the accomplishment of the object he had in view. He says: — Whaterar other atepa may be taken for the im proved organization of the militia, it appeara to Her Majesty's Government to be of essential importance that its adminiatration and the supply of funds for its support, should be exempt from the diaturbing action of ordinary politica. Unlesa this be dona, there can he no oonfidence that in the appointment of officera and in other matters of a purely military character, no other object than the efficiency of the force is kept in view. Were it not that it might fairly be considered too great an interference with the privileges of the repreaentativea ofthe people, I ahould be inclined to suggest that the charge for the militia, or a certain fixed portion of it, should be defrayed from the Conaolidated Fund of Canada, or voted for a period of three or five years. I truat the House will bear with me while I read the opinion of the Canadian Govern ment on this extraordinary propoaition : — Another suggestion embraced in Hia Grace's despatch ia well calculated to excite surprise. Your Excellency's adviaers allude to that portion ofthe despatch in which Hia Grace propoaea to remove the control of funda required for militia purposea from the domain of Parliament. Hia Grace ia evidently aware that the proposition wears the aspect of "an interference with the privi leges ofthe representatives ofthe people," aud it is certain that any measure liable to thia conatruc tion never will be, and ought not to be enter- tamed by a people inheriting the freedom gua ranteed hy British institutiona. The Imperial ParUament guards with jealoua care the means of maintaining the military and naval forcea of the Empire. Its appropriations are annually voted, aud not the moat powerful minister has dared to propoae to the House of Commons the abandon ment of its controlling power for a period of five 735 yeara. If the disturbing action " of ordinary politica" ia a reaaon for removing the final direc tion of military preparationa from Parliament, it ia in every senae as applicable in England as in Canada. What the House of Commons would not under any circumstances of danger entertain, ia not likely to be entertained by the Legialature of Canada. 'Whatever evils are incident to repre sentative institutions, the people of a Britiah pro vince will not forget that they are trivial in compariaon with those which are inseparable from arbitrary authority. Popular liberties are only safe when the action of the people retaina and guides the policy of thoae who are inveated with the power of directing the affairs of the country. They are aafe against military despotism, wielded by a corrupt government, ouly when they have iu their hands the means of controlling the supplies required for the maintenance of a military organ ization I will now quote one more extract from the same report, which will exhibit the opinion entertained at that time by us in relation to the political union of the provinces. What I am now about to read was written in answer to a proposition made from the Colonial Of fice that a fund should be raised by the British North American Colonies, and which should be expended under the direction of tbe Secretary of State for the common defence of the whole country. The extract here cited will place the House in a position to under stand what was then intended to be done : — A union for defence is proposed by His Grace the Secretary of State for the Colonies — a union of the British North American Provinces, for the formation and maintenance of one uniform system of military organization and training, having a commou defensive fund, and approved by Her Majeaty'a Government — a union, whose details would emanate from the Secretary of State, aud whose management would he entirely independent of the aeveral local legialaturea. Your Excel lency's advisors have no heaitation in expreaaing the opinion that any alliance of this character cannot at preaent be entertained. An Interco lonial Railway aeems to b'e the firat atep towarda any more intimate relationa between the British North American Provinces than those which now exist. The construction even of this work is by no meana certain ; although this Government, looking at it mainly as a meana of defence, haa entertained the preliminariea, in common with delegatea from the provincea of Nova Scotia and New Brunawick. It is premature, just now, to speculate upon the possible political consequences which may never be consummated. Certain it ia, however, that there can be no cloaer intercolonial union of any kind until increased facilities for in tercommunication are provided ; and equally certain that the provincea, supposing them to be hereafter united, will never contribute to an expensive syatem of defence unlesa it be subject to their own control. Speaking for Canada, Your Excellency's advisers are sure that this pro vince will continue to claim the exclusive right of directing the expenditure of the public moneys. Sir, theae were the ropliea to the various propoaitiona submitted by His Grace in rela tion to our contributions towards the defence of this country, and to the means for supply ing the same. If different ground is now taken by honorable gentlemen on the Trea sury benches, it seems to me tbat they abandon the rights which belong to a free people — fhe right of controlling tbe expendi ture of our own money, the denial of which caused the revolt of the American colonies in 1776. In the observationa I have made on the question cf defence, and the willing neaa of the people of this country to contri bute their share, I wish to be understood that the proportion aaked of ua ahall be according to our ability. What I say is that in the condition in which the country is at this moment, it would be idle for ua to undertake an outlay which would hopelessly embarrass our exchequer. To organize a large force in connection with the outlay for fortifications, would require a large number of men, who would be withdrawn from the industry of the country — and, that industry being heavily taxed, without any return being expected ; — and the soil refusing perhapa to be aa prolific aa in other yeara, most serious embarrassments would overtake us in the attempt to defend ourselves in a war which we had done nothing to provoke. And, having no knowledge of the Imperial policy whioh might bring about such a war, I say it becomes the people of this country, before they undertake a large outlay for defence or military organisation, to consider what por tion we can bear of the burdens sought to be imposed upon us. (Hear, hear.) I say nothing of the sensational style of speaking which the Attorney General West gets up about other topics, in order to get away from the point raised by my honorable friend from Chateauguay, who stated the caae in a way that any one who deaired might have met it fairly. When a plain anawer ia wanted to a pointed queation, honorable gentlemen oppo site invariably fly off to something else. I will not allude to the debate which incident ally followed after the recess this evening, and before I resumed my observations a littlo while ago, farther than to make a remark on the statement of the Attorney General West, that I sneered at the question 736 of defence. The honorable gentleman stopped there, and- I do not know what he in tended to add. I suppose it was to be the aame courteous and elegant language which he addressed to my honorable friend the member for Chateauguay — language whieh, as regards its audacity and vituperative character, no other member of this House would condescend to use. Complaints from this side of the conduct of the Govern ment generally, the honorable gentleman meets by getting up in a dreadful fury, and singling out honorable gentlemen on this side for personal attack. Such conduct, I think, is unworthy of the leader of this House. (Hear, hear.) I deny that I have ever sneered at the defence question. During my life, it has been more than a sentiment with me — it has been a principle that this country should be defended. I know it is a duty we owe to the Empire, as a self-gov erning colony, to contribute a fair proportion of our means for defence. And I am sure I speak the sentiments of every honorable member on this side, when I say that we are prepared, to the extent of our resources, to contribute all we can for that object. But it is not only that we are called upon to con tribute means for our defence ; we shall be called upon also, in the time of danger, to contribute men, to shed the best blood of the countiy, to see our fields devastated, our towns destroyed, our trade and commerce ruined. All these are consequences of a state of war, which must necessarily fall upon ua, in the event of that calamity ariaing. We have all that to consider, and we have the consciousness also that. Without a very large amount of Imperial aid, it would be impoaaible for us for a long time to resist an invasion of this country. But, while taking this ground, let us not be led away by this buncombe talk of loyalty — by the dragging in of the name of the Sovereign and the name of the Governor General by hon. gen tlemen oppoaite. To over-awe and whip in their supporters, they say to them that they must do what they bid them, because the Queen has said this, and the Governor General has said that, and they constantly refer to " loyalty." For my own part, I never invoke the aid of that term — for I always take it for granted that men are loyal, until they prove by word or deed that they are disloyal. (Hear, hear.) The imputations cast on our loyalty aie a gratuitous insult offered to true Britons, who have proved in times past, and are ready to prove again. their loyalty and their valour —men, wliose attachment'to the soil on which they- were born makea them still more anxious to keep their hearths and firesides free frora the pollution of the invader. Those ''-rt'ho have come here only yesterday cannot feel the strength of tho ties -which bind ua to our native land; an J yet they bave the audacity to charge us with being an nexationists. So far from submitting to this imputation, I charge the gentlemen on the Treaauiy benches, by th6 course of legis lation they have introduced — -by the sudden manner in whieh they have changed their tactics, and proceeded to organise a Constitu tion which familiarises the people of thia country more to American inatitutions than anything ever done here before — I charge them with having done much, to hasten annexation. I put it to honorable gentlemen whether the outside talk of annexation is not assuming a very alarming aspect. . (Ironical cries of " Hear ! hear" from tbe Blinisterial benches.) Yes, and I charge honorable gen tlemen with the fatal cousequepce .of placing the isaue before the Engliah pubUc, the people of this country, and the people of fhe United States — that either this Self-made, unauthorised Constitution must be aupported, or else the rejection of it will be tantamount to annexation, and conaequently that we are annexationiata at heart who do not approve of thia meaaure. We, who raiae our voicea honeatly against the scheme, being deairous really to perpetuate our connection with the Mother Country, and to defend this province with the means we have, arc to be stigmatised as annexationists by the Minister of Agriculture, who sends it forth to the world, tbat there are annexationists not only here but down in the Lower Provinces. He, forsooth, is the man of all others to talk about loyalty ! I have listened with disgust — (oh ! oh !) — with disgust, at the assumption with which the honorable gentleman passes judg ment on those who will be found standing by the British flag when he will be nowhere. (Hear, hear.) Yes ; I can scarcely restrain my anger when I hear that honorable gentle man reading us a lecture on loyalty. It is " Satan reproving sin." When he gets into a government with a numl)er of super- loyal gentleman, he forsooth must stigmatise as disloyal every one who will not go just his own way. Hon. BIr. McGEE— I had said all these things you refer to, bafore you took me into your government. (Laughter.) 737 Hon. j. S. MACDONALD— Whilst the honorable gentleman was with us, we kept him as close as we could, and it was a hard task. (Laughter.) We managed, however, to keep him right, and he took his part in settling the principles which were laid down in the answer we gave to the Duke of Newcastle. Hon. BIr. BIoGEE — Some of the views laid down in that document are very good. Hon. j. S. MACDONALD — And no doubt, when he disagrees with the gentlemen with whom he is now associated, and leaves them as he left us, he will have different views again. Hon. BIr. McGEE— I wiU never go back to you. Hon. j. S. BIACDONALD— The honor able gentleman was glad to come to us. It was the first lift he got in Canada. Hon. Mr. BIcGEE— I never sought you. Hon. j. S. BIACDONALD— I was led into this digression in consequence of the taunts and imputations cast upon us this evening by the leader of the House. We were obliged to him for saying, in his speech at the opening of this debate, that -we are all loyal in this country ; and yet the At torney General East in his speech made on the following day, said there were annexation ists here — there were the John Dougall party and the extreme democratic party. It is not for me to reconcile the statements of the two honorable gentlemen. One says there are no annexationists, the other says there aroi Th'e Hon. Attorney General Eaat apoke of au annexation aentiment in Montreal. Whe ther he is right or not, we know that that city became notorious for its annexation proclivities at a former time. With regard to the prosperity of the country, and its con dition at this present time, I have some observations to make, and will leave the Houae to deduce therefrom how far the Administration will be justifiable in asking from thia Houae authority to- make the out lay whieh they may propoae for purpoaes of defence. I have said that the cry of annexation has arisen from the attempt made by honorable gentlemen opposite to shape our Constitution after the American model. And there is nothing more natural than, when the commerce of the country is at a stand-still, when indebtedness presses hard and heavy upon the farmers and mechanics as well as merchants, and aU branches of trade are depressed— nothing is 94 more natural than that people should look somewhere for relief. This leads me to state that the desire for change — which it is said this proposed scheme is intended to meet — has not been produced so much by any sec tional difficulties, as by the embarrassments whioh have overtaken the country. Blake the institutions of this country analogous, except in some very triflinor instances of dif ference, to those of the United States, and let us feel that our commerce is too limited, and embarrassments have overtaken us — and the result will be that the policy of honorable gentlemen opposite with regard to this question will make people look to the States, in spite of themselves. I wish to shew that the state of the country ten years ago was much more prosperous than it is now. The condition in which we found our selves in 1852 and 1853 justified us to a great extent in going into a large indebtedness for the Grand Trunk. And probably the healthy condition ofthe farming interest and of every branch of trade at that time, justified to some extent the enactment of the Municipal Loan Fund Act, which enabled municipalities to borrow money for all sorts of improvements. Having referred to the state of prosperity whioh then prevaUed, I shall next aUude to the cause, whicb, in my judgment, more than anything else contributed to produce the diaaatroua difficulties which have since overtaken the country. I firat quote from the deapatch of Lord Elgin in 1852, to ahow what waa our condition about that period, when trauamitting to the Colonial Office the Ca nadian Blue Booh for the previoua year : — I had the honor, with my despatch. No. 2, on the 9 th September, to transmit two copiea of " Tables of the Trade and Navigation of the Pro vince of Canada for 1851," and I now enclose the Blue Book, together with a printed copy of the " Accounts of the Province," and of aReport by the Commissioner of Public Works for the aame year. Theae doeumenta furniah much gratifying evidence of the progress aud proaperity of the colony, and justify the anticipations on this head expresaed in my despatch. No. 94, of the Ist August, 1851, which accompanied the Blue Book of 1850. That is tbe official statement made by the then Governor Genernl to the Mother Country. And what does he say in the following year? In 1853y after going over a number of faets, shewing the advancement of trade and com merce, and the general progress of the country, he says, in the last sentence but one of his despatch : — 7S8 I enclose the supplement of a local newapaper, which containa copiea of the addresaea that were presented to me at various points in mv progress up the Ottawa. Your Grace will observe with aatiafaction the uniform testimony which they bear to the prosperity of the country aud the content ment of the inhabitants. Reports -which reach me from other parts of the province speak on this point the same language. Canada has enjoyed seasons of prosperity before, hut it ia doubtful whether any previoua period in the history of the colony can be cited at which there was so entire an absence of those bitter personal and party animosities which divert attention from material interests, and prevent co-cperation for the public good. I could quote alao from the essays written at that time by the member for South Lanark (BIr. BIoRKis), the SoUcitor General East (Hon. BIr. Langevin), and the late John Sheridan IIogan, to shew the unprece dented progress which was being made by Canada at that time. And what was the first thing to mar that prosperity? I wish to call the attention of honoralle gentlemen to the fact, that the first step in bringing about the embarrassment we are now laboring under, was the repeaFof the Usury laws. In the first place, the bill of the honorable member for South Oxford (Hon. BIr. Brown) in 1853, took away the penalty attached to lending money at uaurious rates. Bloney was then got freely — farmers and others borrowed heavily — and we commenced our downward career. Afterwards all restrictions on the lending of money were taken off'. At first people could get money at six per cent., but afterwarda capital came in from abroad, and the' country waa flooded with money, but at unlimited intereat. I appeal to honorable gentlemen, who repreaent the farming por tiona of Upper Canada — I appeal to honor able membera for Lower Canada, if they can riae in their places and say that the condition of thia country at present is not deplorable ; that there ia not an amount of private indebtedneas which ia frightful to con template ? And why is this ? It ia beoauae ao raany are borrowing money on account of the facility of obtaining it at high ratea ; then, getting embarrassed, they borrow for three or four years more at 15 or 20 per cent; next they have to borrow at 30 or 40 per cent, and finally are stripped of their property and ruined. Blr. A. BIACKENZIB— Does the honor able gentleman want an anawer to the appeal he made a moment ago ? Hon. j. S. MACDONALD— Certainly. BIr. a. MACKENZIE— Well, I have to aay for one, that while there ia a considerable amount of money borrowed in the part ofthe country which I represent myself, there is an amount of accumulated wealth there tenfold what it was at tbe time the honorable gentleman has referred to ; and there is not anything like that amount borrowed now that there was at that time. (Hear, hear.) BIr. stirton.— I have no heaitation in endoraing ths.t atatement, aa applicable alao lo the part of the country which I represent. BIr. a. MACKENZIE— And I should have added that money can be borrowed at lower rates now than at the time referred to. Hon. j. S. BIACDONALD— Well, it appears that I have the testimony of two honorable gentlemen against me. As regarda the atatement of my honorable friend who comea from the Oil Springs, we can easily understand why money has flowed in there, where they sell a hundred acres for a million of dollars — and why, at the time his section of country has become rich, other parts ofthe country may remain poor. (Hear, hear.) A-t the time the usury laws were repealed, I had the honor, BIr. Speaker, to be in the seat which you tiow occupy, and I hal therefore no opportunity of urging my oppo sition to the bill then brought before the Houae by the honorable member for South Oxford (Hon. BIr. Brown) with all that energy and earneatneaa which characterises that honorable gentleman. But whenever the attempt was subsequently made to restore the usury laws, or to reimpoae the reatric- tiona on the rate of intereat, my vote will alwaya be found to have been with thoao who were oppoaed to what is called free trade in money, and to-day I feel more satisfied than ever that it is the repeal of the usury laws which has brought about a large amount of the depression and the difficulties under which the country now suffers. It is true that for two or three years after the repeal of tho usury laws, the country was pros perous. Property was valued at enormous rates ; large amounts were borrowed from the Blunicipal Loan Fund, and were spent on local improvements generally, yielding no return whatever. Then there were large sums borrowed from the different moneyed corporations that came into the country — such as the Canada Loan and Credit Com pany — the Trust and Loan Conqiany — and the various insurance companies that are daily investing their surplus funds in valu- 739 able property in this country. Where does that money go ? It does not remain here. It is drained off in the dividends of the banka, and ofthe various companies that are lending at usurious rates of interest. It is going out of the country. And what do we get in return ? Blore facilities for borrowing. And I aak honorable gentlemen from Upper Canada — I do not know how fiir this is applic able to Lower Canada — whether it is not true that an immense number of our youth, now in the armies of the United States, have gone away because the properties held by their fatliers are so heavily mortgaged that they had , no hope of retrieving them. Speaking for my own section, I can say that there is scarcely a young man who can now look forward, as was the rule ten or twelve years ago, to succeeding his father in tbe family homestead. I say then that this gene rally depreaaed atate of the country, without any prospect of relief, causes a large amount of uneasiness in the public mind. And there is no doubt that a good deal of the feeling in favor of tbe scheme which honorable gen tleman take credit for, is infiuenced by the desire to look for some change, as a reliel' from the depresaion under whioh we labour. And I am not without authority for the atate ment I am now making. I ahall read from an article publiahed only a day or two ago by one, whoae name I am sure is well known to the commercial community generally — who has contributed more than any one elae to the atatiatica of our trade and commerce by hia labora in Toronto, and aubaequently in Blontreal— I allude to the Editor of the Trade Review. I ahall read from that article, and ahall then aak the Houae to aay whether I have been exaggerating. lam now speaking more of the condition of our farmers, and' thoae who have been induced to borrow on account of the facilities afforded for getting money ; I shall come presently to speak of the trade and commerce of the country, and shall prove from the same source that the statistics of our trade shew both to be in a deplorable condition. I do this to show that we should not blindly inpur an immense liability in the matter of defence, when we have no means of meeting the outlay that may be impoaed upon ua. When the Hon. Solicitor General (Hon. Mr. Langevin) and the member for St. John's (Mr. Bourassa) had a race every year to see who would be foremoat in bringing in his bill to reduce the rate of interest, the member for South Oxford (Hon, Mr. Brown} of course insisted onthe maintenance of his pet acheme, which, in my opinion, has done more harm to the couirtry than anything else. I regret that the House should have agreed so far with the honorable gentleman in maintaining that policy. As I said before, in a country like this, where our wealth is in our lands, where we own but little money — when our crops fail, how can we meet the extravagant demands made upon us by those from whom we borrow ? But I will proceed to read what the Trade Review of February last says of our present laws on the subject of usury : — The framera of these lawa evidently intended them, we think, to protect the trader and the farmer from the extortiona of money leudera, aud, aa auch, they may have been auited for the time, when banking was solely in the hands of oue er two corporations, which, of courae, were monopolista. But competition haa now fairly effaced all possibility of oppression from auch a source. These laws, in fact, instead of guarding the intereats they were intended to protect, only aerve to drive their repreaentativea into the ene my'a quarters, and leave them at the mercy of the oppreasor. Mercantile paper, which our banka are not willing to discount at aeven per cent., ia handed hy the needy trader — who is in want of money to meet the pressing demands of some creditor, or to retire some notes falling due — to a broker, by whom, perhaps, after getting a bond over part of the trader's property, the paper ia discounted at a rate more nearly assimilated to that at which respectable bankers are selling " current fund" drafts upon New York (say fifty per cent, discount) than a fair rate for commercial paper. Thia is the kind of protection our usury laws afford. Bather a rude nurse, we should call them, for our undeveloped "resources, and our infaut manufactures." \ That ia the language of the reviewer, one whoae buaineaa it ia to review, not only the monetary condition and the commerce ofthe country, but every branch of our induatry and tratie, and he seals with his judgraent the statements which have been made as to the deplorable condition into whioh the existing usury laws, in this and in former years, have brought the country. That is one of the consequences of free trade in money. The honorable member for South Oxford in answer to a remark from this side, said this afternoon that the commer cial interests of Upper Canada wero in a most proaperoua condition. Hon. Mr. BROWN— I did not say "a most prosperous condition." What I said was this — that the honorable member for Chateauguay had exaggerated the difficulties now existing in Upper Canada; that the 740 troublea in the United States, short crops and other cauaes had caused a depression in Upper Canada ; but that this, I considered, was merely temporary, and that with one or two good crops all this would disappear. Hon. j. S. MACDONALD— But these are hard truths which I have been reading. And I think it is better to tell frankly our condition, than to base our estimates on a condition which we do not really enjoy. Let ua not aend out extravagant atatementa about our aituation which will not stand the test of an impartial scrutiny. Let us rather make known here and in the Blether Country our real resourcea, than make false representa tions of a state of prosperity which does not exist. Then this is our prospect, as stated by the editor of the Trade Review, and honorable gentlemen must remember that our present proapecta have a great deal to do with the courae they should take in legis lating on the future constitution of our gov ernment :— A very general degree of anxiety ia apparent among mercantile men as to the prospects of a healthy trade during the coming aeason. There are so many unfavourable circumstances combi ning to affect our comruerce, that this anxiety is by no meana without a cause. Exceaaive importa tions last year, implying large internal and foreign indebtedness ;, decreased eKports, equally implying inabi'ity to readily reduce this indebtedness, are facts that iu themselves are sufficient to create a marked change in the immediate condition of trade . There can be no doubt but that the grain crop throughout Weatern Canada falla abort of even diminished expectation, the fine sleighing of the past two montha having failed to induce deli veries to any large extent by farmers. Taking into account, however, that throughout the au tumn the deliveries were insignificant, it was generally anticipated that during the winter the amount of produce to be brought out would he very large , But unfortunately, notwithatanding a continuance of excellent roads, a very great pressure for money, and a fair demand at mode rate rates, at no point in all the province have the receipts yet reached those of previoua years. The only inference is, that the crop is not only a short one, but that the money heing realised for it falls far abort of general expectation. The result must be to materially lessen the debt-paying power of the people, and render them less likely to make new purchases, hi' ot only will this be the internal effect, but when it is understood that one section of the province will require for con sumption very nearly all the surplus produce of the other, the difficulty to discharge foreign in debtedness is intensified." Mil. Speaker, I again quote from the Trade Review. It tells us tbat the pro bable excess in Upper Canada will be more than swallowed up in Lower Canada. The article goes on to say ; — Another cause for anxiety ia the general con dition in which the retail trade of the country is found. The numeroua failurea that are daily occurring, and the wretched dividends which real estatea are likely to pay, indicate a condition of thinga not at all desirable. Not only ia there constantly apparent a manifeat lack of capacity, but, as we remarked laat week, a degree of raa- cality ia heing developed, which cannot fail to be highly injurioua to general confidence. We do not now propose to enumerate the causea for these frequent casualties, or point out the policy of trade that haa induced them : it is sufficient to say, that recent eventa make it more than uaually incumbent upon importers to scan their credita very closely; to lessen large amounts in few hands ; and to use every legitimate precaution for aafety rather than profit. We need hardly another cause to account for the anxiety of merchanta aa to the future. But another cause we have in the reatricted policy which the banka will of necessity be compelled to puraue. All that we have been attempting to describe will act with far greater force upon the banka than upon individuala. A small movement of produce implies an equally small circulation of bills ; any lack of confidence in the retail trade will hasten the policy which has been for some time evident, viz., the con traction into large citiea of the meana of the leading institutions. Even in the ordinary con dition of affaira, the banka would not do other than contract in a year of short crops and low prices. But another cauae for contraction will he the contemplated withdrawal of Southern gold now in deposit. The passage of the Alien Bill may have one of two effects, — 1st, it may cause the withdrawal of a considerable sum of gold held by the banks ; or 2nd, it will certainly necessitate preparation for auch a withdrawal, should it even never take place. Either consequence impliea a conversion into bullion of some" property not now iu that shape. The hanks now unitedly hold five and a-halfmillions of dollara in gold, against which there is a circulation of notes of over nine mil liona. Thia proportion will doubtleaa be main tained, and any considerable drafts for deposits will be met by bills of exchange ou England, the banka either uaing their credit there, which they can do with interest at five per cent., or they can sell the securities in which their foreign deposits are inveated. Sir, there is the future, drawn only last month, of the condition of Upper Cauada — short crops and nothing to export, and nothing staring us in the face but actual distress and actual want. Then, if that is imminent, does it not beho-ye us to regard closely the conduct of the gentlemen on the Treasury benches ? We ought to admonish them not to go heedlessly and needlessly 741 into extravagance which tbis country cannot bear. (Hear, hear.) The effect of this legislation, the unhinging of the public mind, and the high expectations formed of the advantages which are to result from the adoption of this scheme of a new Constitu tioa — all these things have contributed to make the people unhappy and to drive the population out of the country. (Hear, hear.) I put it to the House, whether the honorable gentlemen on the Treasury benches have not given, as the main excuse for preaaing the Confederation scheme, the imminent danger which surrounds us. Does the emigrant choose that country where he cannot profitably invest his capital ; where he cannot find profitable employment on his arrival, nor lands in convenient situations, which he can convert to immediate use, where extravagance has been induced by the facilities afforded for borrowing and for wild speculations; and above all, where he expects to be called upon to perform mili tary duties in the face of a powerful enemy immediately on the borders of his new home ? I think that if, in the face of all these ciroumatanccs, the gentlemen on the Treasury benches pledge themselvea to an exceaaive outlay, we ought to be told now what are the proapecta in store for the people of Canada. (Hear, hear.) But, sir, they are silent on that point. We know this, hov ever, from past experience — we know that it will be impossible for us to regulate the conducto f the honorable gentle men on the Treasury benchea, when they get to Downing-atreet, surrounded by the influences which will meet them there. Sir, we have occasion for alarm. We remember that when Hon. BIr. Hincks wentto England in 1854, notwithatanding we had .voted one million eight hundred sterling in 1852 for the Grand Trunk, he returned to Canada just in time to call Parliament within a day of the prescribed period ap pointed for its meeting, and proposed, as the important measure for that session. £900,000 stg. additional ; and this vote was forced through Parliament during the fol lowing session, when it transpired, for the first time, tbat the agreement to advance this sum out of the public' exchequer had been entered into by Mr. Hincks and Lord Elgin whilst in London. We are now called upon to give these gentlemen a vote of credit ; to give them the control of a large sum of money, to spend as they think proper ; to allow them to betake themselves to England to bind us to an agreement for all timo to como. (Hear, hear.) We see, sir, day after day, 'as I have said before, how gentlemen come to this House and dis regard the pledges they have made their constituents. Once in their places here, they forget tho vows by which they ob tained them. I could give a long list, iu my experience of a quarter of a century in this House, of members who have betrayed the confidence reposed in them by the people who elected them. (Hear, bear.) Is it vain to appeal to members now to control the power the Government are asking from us, after we have protested against thia sort of thing year after year ; when we are re fuaed thoae explanationa which should be given to this Ilouse ; when the country is deeply embarrassed, I fear, beyond redemp tion ? (Hear, hear.) I have to apologise to the Houae for the length of time during which I have occupied ita attention. But I hope the Houae will' believe this, that I am not actuated by any factious motives in this matter. (Hear, hear.) I stand here as one who has no vote of his to recall ; as one who has always raaintained that, under our Con atitution, aa it ia, prosperity and enjoyment might be secured, with all their concomitants, were we free from demagogueiam, which haa produced a very large proportion of the difficultiea by which we are aurrounded. (Hear, hear,) I think I have demonatrated that there is sufficient cauae for alarm to make ua anxioua for the future. For all we know, we may find ouraelvea in a very awkward predicament when the queation; turna upon Confederation or annexation. I sincerely regret to notice the prevalence of this tone of annexation, and I say that, since the honorable gentlemen opposite got on the Treasury benches, this tone haa been much more decided on thia queation than ever before. (Hear, hear.) Sir, I need only refer to the declaration of the honorable Premier in the other Iloiiae, who atated the other day that we were on an inclined plane towarda annexation, but which the Confeder ation scheme waa calculated to arreat. I regret alao, as mueh as any one, the position in which we are placed, and that, with such a large population, we are, like mendicants, knocking at the door of the Lower Prov inces, imploring tbem against tbeir will to step in to save us, forsooth, from destruc tion. (Hear.) It is no wonder that the 742 people there refuse to cast their lot with ours, after hearing the opinion the honor able gentlemen on the Treasury benches have so frequently expressed of each other. And what will be the consequence if an attempt is made to coerce them ? Why, they will be like the damsel who is forced to marry against her will, and who will, in the end, be most likely to elope with some one elae. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) With the tricka which the gentlemen on the Treaaury benches know so well to play, we will only haaten the day whan the Lower Provinces will perhaps en deavor to withdraw from the Blether Couu try and seek another alliance. I reaume my seat, sir, regretting tbe manner in which the Go-^rnment have tried to stifle the full and free diacusaion of this great queation. (Cheers,) BIr. COWAN — I cannot agree altogether, BIr. Speaker, with tbe honorable member for Cornwall as to fhe causes whioh led to the prosperity of thia country from 1854 to 1858, nor yet with the picture ho drawa of our present circumstances. That hon. gen tleman attributea our proaperity to tbo repeal of the Usury laws. 1 do uot doubt but that the repeal of the Usury laws had some effect, but there wero other causes which bad much more to do in producing that prosperity than the repeal of the Uaury la-ws. In the first place wo imported money by the million to build our railways, and in the second place, not only had we abundant harvests, but short cropa in other countriea gave us fabulous prieoa for everything we raiaed. Inatead of eighty or ninety centa, wheat waa worth two dollars a buahel and upwards, with millers scouring the country with teams to carry it from the barn tp the mill. Such a tide of prosperity, BIr. Speaker, never set in on any country ; the result waa that it unhinged the aober calculation of almoat everybody, and we ran into debt individually, municipally, and provincially, aa if pay-day had never been to come. "Well-to-do farm- era, with perhaps a thousand dollars or two in their pocket, thought they might purchase an adjoining farm, but it was well if they escaped with the lo-ss of the money paid down. In many instances the homestead waa sacrificed ere the new farm was paid for, while houses planned and built then have not yet received their furniture. But, BIr. Speaker, if our prosperity was unprece dented, so were our reverses. The commer cial crisis of 1858 came on ua when we were almost without a crop. The disastrous frost of tho llth of June destroyed the one-half, if not three-fourths, of the fall wheat. — Spring wheat — aU except the Fife aort, then but sown — was so blij^hted as in many instances not to be worth the cutting. And many a farmer was not only destitute of potatoes to eat, but had even to purchase hia next year's seed. The only article from which numerous farmera got any return was surplus stock, which that season brought fair prioes — lean as well as fat — in the American marketa. But these reverses were not without a salutary effect. All apeculation waa inatantly stopped. Farmera began to practice anew frugality and economy, and turned their attention to rearing stock as well as cereals. The consequence is that the country has in a great measure recovered from the shock of 1858, and, notwithstanding rather short crops and comparatively low prices, I cannot help thinking that the hon. member fbr Cornwall takes altogether too gloomy a view of the state of tbe country. But though I cannot coincide with the gloomy views of the member lor Cornwall, neither can I acoept the- bright prospect of the member for South WeUington, as being deacriptive of the agricultural interest, generally, throughout the province. It ia all very well for my hon. friend, who residea in oneof the moat fertile countiea in Canada, and whoae farmera devote their attention to rearing stock — stock second to none in the province— to talk of agricultural prosperity. But in leaa favored aections it -cannot be denied that there ia much individual suffering, cauaed by the midge and the unprecedented drought of last summer. (Hear, hear.) Hon. BIr. LAFRABIBOISE said— BIr. Speaker, when, a few nights ago, I had the honor to assert in thia House that the Gov ernment would adopt every means to cauae their scheme of Confederation to be passed without amendment, and would have recourse to motiona of the nature of that which ia engaging our attention at the present time, I certainly did not expect that my prediction would be ao soon accompliahed, and I ac knowledge that I did not believe that it was ao weU founded tia it has proved to be. What do we see, Mr. Speaker ? We see an ex ample of the moat deplorably restrictive ac tion which can poaaibly be diaplayed by a government. After delivering, to satiety, speeches lasting several hours, speeches to 743 which we have listened with the greatest pos sible attention, the Administration, alarmed at the agitation which is arising everywhere throughout Lower Canada, and dreading re action, takes every means to prevent disous sion, and to cause the House to vote without allowing it an opportunity of propoaing amend ments to the informal scheme wbich it is de sirous of imposing upon the country. (Hear, hear.) Among those who were witnesaea of the unworthy behavior of some of the hon orable Blinisters, who now sit on the opposite side of the House, at the time of the cele brated " Double Shuffle " of 1858; among those who saw those men record an oath at ten o'clock at night which they violated the very next day — among those, I say, the breach of faith, of which tbe Hon. Attorney Gen eral Weat has juat given so sad an example to this House, will excite no surpriae, for thoae gentlemen have long accustomed us to auch unworthy actions on the part of a Min istry which has lost all sense of honor and of the respect which they owe to the House. (Hear, hear.) It is evident, Mr. Speaker, that the Government is afraiti of amendments which might be proposed by the Opposition to their scheme, and of the vote which would be taken on those amendments; disoussion alarms them, and the Hon. Attomey General for Lower Canada dreads nothing so much as an appeal to the people, notwithstanding that he would appear to hold in contempt the protests which come to us in the shape of petitions from all tbe counties in the district of Montreal. (Hear, hear.) Yea, BIr. Speak er, theae numeroua petitiona prove to us that several honorable membera of thia Houae do not represent hero the opinion of their con atituenta in reapect of the new Conatitution which it ia wiahed to impoae upon ua. There are representatives here who are ready to vote in favor of the scheme of Confederation in spite of earnest proteatationa from the coun tiea for which they were elected. I shall con tent myself with mentioning a aingle one — I allu'io to the honorable member for St. Hya cinthe. Well, BIr. Speaker, that honorable member has declared that he will vote ag Inat the appeal to the people, and in favor of Con federation, notwithstanding that out of two thousand inhabitants whom he represents, or rather does uot repreaent,* in this Houae, aeventeen hundre'-' have formally enjoined him, by a petition ligned with their namea, to adopt the contrary courae. (Hear, hear.) A VOICE — How many of those are elec tors ? Hon. Mr. LAFRAMBOISE— Thoy are all electors ; and if you like, you may con vince yourself of the truth of what I state by examining the signatures, which are those of duly qualified electors who voted at tho Sec tion of the honorable member for St. Hy acinthe. I say then, BIr. Speaker, that the imposing and significant movement whioh is now going on in Lower Canada alarms the Ministry, and that if the Lower Canadian representatives obey the popular voice, and do not disregard it as some of them appear dis posed to do, they will vote against the motion proposed by the Honorable Attorney General for Upper Canada; for if those honorable membera aupport this motion, they wUl simply declare that they do not wish for amendments to the scheme, that they are opposed to an appeal to the people and to any Alteration whatever of the scheme. The other night the honorable member for , Blontmorency de clared in this Hofise tbat this signified nothing ; that a representative was not bound to respect the wishes of his constituents, and that wo were at perfect - libeirty to vote as we might think fit on any measure whataoever, and espe cially on the acheme of Confederation. At all events, BIr. Speaker, I shaU venture to hold a different opinion from that of the honorable member, and I say that every man who shews a proper reapect for his poaition in this House cannot vote contrary to the expreaaed wishes of hia constituenta ; it ia a doctrine v/hich waa never called in queation until the honorable member for Montmorency conaidered that he might cast a doubt upon the correctness of it. Well, a faot that none wiU venture to deny is, that several members promiaed their consti tuents that they would vote in favor of an appeal to the people ; and, by compelling them to-day to accept the motion of the Honorable Attorney General fbr Upper Canada, every chance of their doing so is taken away. Placed as they are in thia dilemma, the mem bera who made that promise, and who at the same time are in favor of the Government, ought not to hesitate as to the course to bo pursued ; they ought to throw out this motion, for, if it ahould be adopted, Confederation will at once become an accomplished fact, and the appeal to the people will have to be given up. (Hear, hear.) The Honorable Attomey General for Lower Canada haa reproached the Opposition with pressing the adjournment of the House at ten, and half-past ten o'clock at night ; but let him remember that he himself pressed an adjournment at the same hour, in order to give his colleague, the honorable 744 member for Dorchester, an opportunity of speaking on the following evening. Hon. Atty. Gen. CARTIER— I moved tho adjournment at a later hour of the even ing ; the clock on your side marked a later hour than half-past ten. Hon. BIr. LAFRAMBOISE— WeU, I can say that the Blinisterial clock ahewed the hour which I have mentioned, and the two clocka generally agree, better than we agree our selves. ( Hear, hear, and laughter.) In con clusion, BIr. Speaker, I have no hesitation in saying that our parliamentary history shews uo precedent for ao unworthy a proceeding as the present. I aay that it ia the intention of the Government to send their measure to England to receive the Imperial sanction before the people of this country have had time to judge of it, and before their representatives have had an opportunity of amending it in any way whatever. This measure, or this new Constitution, after it shall have so received the sanction of the Imperial Government, will have to be aceepted by Lower Canada, whether it suits her or not. (Hear, hear.) BIr. Speaker, I venture to hope that greater in dependence will be exhibited by our Lower Canadian representatives than our Bliniatera are wUling to believe will be exhibited, and that our Lower Canadian membera will not conaent to allow theraaelves to be so led by the noae by their leaders. We were promised, at the commencement of this debate, that all the membera ahould have an opportunity of expressing their views on the soheme, and of making amendmenta to it, ahould they think proper to do so; and now, treading all their promiaea under foot, the Miniatry thua laya ita ultimatum before ua : you muat adopt the soheme which we submit to you, without attempting to change a aingle iota. For my part, Mr. Speaker, I conaider that I ahould be failing in the performance of my duty aa a repreaentative if I did not record my proteat against auch conduct, and auch acandalous neglect of all the principles of responaible government. (Applauae.) BIr. bi. C. CABIERON— I very much re gret that I find it neceaaary to detain the Hoiiae, even for a few momenta, for a second timo on the same day, on the same subject ; but I desire to repel, in the strongest manner, the insinuation that the Hon. Attorney Gen eral West bas cast on thoae hon. gentlemen who are opposed to the Confederation acheme . — the charge that we are either -actuated by feeUngs tending towarda the annexation of Canada to the neighboring republic, or else that we desire to offer factious opposition, and that we have no good motive in seeking for delay with reference to the consideration of this question. Now, speaking for myself, I muat say that I dcT not believe that there is an honorable gentleman on the floor of this House, or even within the length and breadth of British North America, who would leas de sire to aee any change iu the conatitutional relationa exiating between theae provincea and the Mother Country than myaelf. (Hear, hear.) In my opposition to the scheme I am actuated by a feeling, that adopting it in the manner in which it is now proposed to be done will tend more to drive us towards that annexation, which is held up as such a bug bear, than anything that could be done by honorable gentlemen on the Treaaury benches in half a century, if our Constitution were al lowed to remain as it is. (Hear, hear.) Then, as to our being called obstructionists, I would call your attention, Mr. Speaker, to the cir cumatancea aurrounding thia debate. In the firat iaatance, aa baa been repreaented by aeveral honorable membera, it waa propoaed that the matter ahould be conaidered as if in Committee of tbe Whole ; but forjpurposea of preserving order and convenience fbr transact ing other business, that the Speaker should remain in the chair. Though the Hon. Attorney General West does not consider that proposition in the same light as it was under stood on this aide of the Houae, and by myaelf, yet I am satisfied that the intention of hon. gentlemen in proposing it, was that the debate should go on in the same free and unrestrained manner, due order being preserved, as if the Speaker was not in the chair. (Hear, hear.) Hon. gentlemen on the Treasury Isenches then proposed that tbey ahould have the opportunity of laying the acheme before the Houae and fhe country in as ftUl and care ful a manner as they pleaaed — that they were to take their own time to do this, and were to be allowed to apeak without any interruption. That privilege waa accorded to them moat heartily and cordially by tbe Opposition. There was no interruption whatever from this side of the House during the whole of their five long apeechea. (Hear, hear.) But the very moment they had accoraplished their object, and we desired to have exactly the same opportunity — that of laying our views before the House and the country in the same manner, and letting them follow the speeches of the honorable gentlemen on the Treasury benches in proper order — they objected in the most arbitrary manner. The Hon. Attorney 745 General East claimed the right to reply at once to every speech delivered on this side of the House. (Hear, hear.) Then again a motion was made by the Hon. Attomey Gen eral West that until disposed of, the con sideration of this question should be taken up every evening at half -past seven o'clock, and that was at once concurred in on our part. 'In a very short time afterwards it was proposed, and the proposition was endorsed and pressed by the Government, that this solemn agreement should be broken up, and the whole business of the country on the floor of this House suspended until the debate should be brought to a close. In reference to that, I did oppose the course pursued, because I did not think it was for the interest of the country, or that it would facilitate the busi ness of tbis House. We find that several days were occupied in discussing whether that resolution should "be adopted from day to day or not. Who is responsible for that discussion and delay ? Was it hon. gentlemen on this side of the House, who desired to carry out the arrangement proposed by the Gov ernment themselves, or was it the hon. gentle men on the Treaaury benchea, who sought to break up the agreement that had been entered into, of which they themaelvea were the authora ? (Hear, hear.) I have alao, Mr. Speaker, in thia connection, to make my acknowledgmenta to the Hon. Attorney Gen eral West for the very elegant compliment he paid the honorable member for Peel and my self, in characterising us as the " ahanghaia " from their, the Miniaterial aide of the Houae (bear, hear, and laughter) — but though he did give us the credit of being the only ones that had laid eggs that amounted to anything, the others being all addled, he might have re flected a little, and in doing so have found that the eggs that these " shanghais " had laid will produce birds that in aU probability wiU cut the combs of honorable gentlemen on jthat side of the House. (Laughter.) 'The hot haste with which those honorable gentle men are proceeding with this measure is fos tering and providing that heat that wiU bring iito vitality and life those very eggs that they referred to ; and when the country understands the character of the brood which is produced by those egga, honorable gentle men wiU find that they have been counting without their host in hatching them. (Hear, near.) Hon. Mr. GALT — Cotrntuig their chickens before they are hatched. (Laughter.) Mr. M. C. CAMERON— Exactly ; count- 95 ing the chickens before they are hatched. Honorable gentlemen parade before this House an indefinable something that they are careful to keep in the background, which they seem to intimate, if they were only to divulge, would bring almost every meniber of the House around to their view of the question at once. Mr. Speaker, if there is any in formation of that kind in their possession, we should know what it is. (He-ir, hear.) If we have a herculean labor before us to meet some approaching difficulty, this House should know what tbat labor and that difficulty is, that we may prepare to meet it as speedily and as bravely as possible. (Hear, hear.) I do not find that the honorable gentlemen are making auy preparations for meeting the lack of defence under which they say the country exists, between the present time and the assembling of this House in the summer. And yet they bring the matter up to frighten tbe House into submiaaion to their views. They have a puppet from which, by keeping it aufficiently behind the screens, they throw a distorted shadow upon the wall and tell us to look at the giant ; but when the shadow is traced to its origin, it will be found, I appre hend, to be nothing but a puppet after all. If they were to come out boldly and give this Houae all the information of which they boaat the poaaeaaion, I am very much miataken if the myatery would not turn out to be a mere scarecrow. They make a great cackling about the hawk, and then when the whole brood of chickens ia gathered under their wings, it turna out that the source of their pretended fright is nothing but a harmless dove after all. (Laughter.) Honorable gentlemen on the 'Treasury bencbea are conatantly endeavoring to lead ua to suppoae that there ia imminent danger of a war with the United States, and yet each honorable member, as he rises, de clares that for himself he has no apprehension of anything of that kind. They ought to consider that if there is any ground for ap prehension, if there is any danger of the United Statea attacking Canada and getting, into a war with England, such a war wUl be upon us almost immediately. When the nation emerges from the strife in which it is at present engaged, they will have learned a costly lesson of the horrors of war and the financial burdens it imposes ; and I am satisfied that sq intelligent a people as they are universally admitted to be, will not rush into a contest with a power like that of England, unless they do so while smarting under wrongs they im agine they have suffered at the hands of Eng. 746 land in connection with the war in which they are now engaged. After they have bad time to reflect and to ait down and count the coat of the strife through which they will have pasaed, in treaaure and blood and intel lect, and their national wounds have had time to stiffen, there wiU be little danger of their again rushing into another similarly diaaatroua conteat. I heard a gentleman deacribing thia matter a abort time ago, by an illuatration which I will here repeat. Hia position waa that the respective probabilities of a war with the United States, at an early or a remote period, might be learned from what is often seen when two men have been engaged in a round of fisticuffs. They pumraell and bruise each other in the most shocking manner ; and while the wounds they have received at each other's hands are freah, while their blood is up, and while they are smarting under their injuries, if a bystander interferes with either of them, even sometimes by a little wholesome, well- meant advice, the wounded man will be ready to pitch into him at once, almost without thought of tbe odda that may exiat againat him. But after auch an individual coola off and hia wounda become atiff and aore, and he gets time for reflection, he haa no desire what ever to enter into a conteat. And ao, I appre hend, will it be with our neighbora on the other side of the line. When they get cooled down after the preaent conteat, return to their almost desolated homes again, and see the vacancies that have been caused, and when their leaders count up the milliona upon milliona of dollars that their present war will have coat them, and the claima that wUl be made upon them for corapenaation, war loaaes, and numeroua other mattera, they will feel a very great averaion to enteiing upon hoatilitiea which will bring down upon them the whole power of England. Therefore I hold that if we are going to expend money in defencea, it ought to be done without a day'a unneceasary delay. And yet hoa. gentlemen propose to delay submitting a measure for the conaideration of the Houae until another session. They will prorogue this aeaaion without making any appropriation for de fence, and go home to England to puah through a scheme which there is now no object in hurrying forward. (Hear, hear.) Hon. gentlemen on this aide of the Houae are not actuated in their oppoaition to the scheme by any desire to occupy the place of any one of the hon. gentlemen on the 'Trea sury benches, but their object is to protect the interests of the people, on whose behaU' they have been sent to this House, and on their behalf to see that we have a govemment carried on upon economical principles, so that the people may be led to respect and sustain it. (Hear, hear.) But if we have a govern ment that is extravagant in their ideas, how can we expect the people to respect that government ? And what is there so well_ cal culated to place this country on the incUned plane to slide into the American Union — so graphically described by the head of the Government in the Upper House — as extrav agance on the part of our Government? If we have to spend the sum that the commis sion has recommended in erecting works of defence, and then provide corresponding forces of men and equipments, the expense will be monstrous. And yet, forsooth, because we ask for information, and object to tbe coercion they have attempted, they charge us with being obstructionists. Do they mean to say that it is factious conduct for the repre sentatives of ttie people to demand thatthey be consulted before their very Constitution is trampled upon and another forced upon them ? Canada is by far the most numerously popu lated, most wealthy a d most important of all the colonies to be affected by the change, and yet the people of this province are the only people that are to have no opportunity of saying whether the change is acceptable or not, nor are their representatives in Parlia ment to have even the opportunity of moving a single amendment to it. (Hear, hear.) If opposition to that kind of thing entitles me to the epithet of obstructionist, then I glory in the name of an obstructionist. (Applause.) I shall vote against the motion that has been made by my hon. friend the Hon. Atty. Gen. Weat, and I again express my sincere regret that he sbould have been induced to bring in such a motion, calculated, as it is. to stifle the proper and ordinary expression o this Houae. To tell ua that we may diacuaa the question aa much aa we pleaae ia most gratu itoua, and ia nothing but a sham, alongaide of the fact that the motion abuts us off from bringing forward any amendments, or placing our views upon the aubject upon the records of the Houae. How often bave hon. gentle men on that aide of the Houae told ua that if we were not prepared to accept the meaaure, we ought to be prepared to propoae a better one ? But no aooner do we give notice of what we conaider a better one, than we are virtually gagged, and told that we ahall not have the opportunity of even propoaing them to the House, If that ia the way that a free 747 people is to be treated, hon. gentlemen wil) soon find out that they are on the wrong track ; and when Parliament is again sum moned, they will be met by a voice from tbe people that will show them that they have adopted a course that will consign names that have heretofore been honorable, to political oblivion, on account of this outrage upon the rights and liberties of a free people, and it wiU be an oblivion that will be richly mer- iteo. (Loud cheers.) Mr. scatcherd said :— The resolu tions under debate, involving as they do an entire change in the Constitution of this country, I regard as of greater importance than any question that has been debated before this House since the union. So sweeping a change seldom takes place except after war or insurrection. (Hear, hear.) But we have had neither war nor insurrec tion — (hear) — we have enjoyed a very long season of peace and quietness, and at no time has there been an agitation among the people for auch a change aa that now pro poaed. I believe this acheme to have been undertaken mainly becauae the leadera of the I wo political parties saw that they had no hope left of continuing in office on the one hand, or getting into office on the other, while they fought against each other. I have heard it asserted in this House and out of this House, that so grave had become the position of public affairs, that all gov ernment had becoiLO impossible, and that the gravity of the occasion required that men of all parties should unite to find a solution of existing difficulties. I hope this was not a mere pretence, put forward by men in office to continue in office, and by men out of office to get into office. It is a fact well known, that so long as either party could govern without the assistance of the other, no advance was made toward a union between the leaders. The changing of two or three votes in this House would have indefinitely postponed the scheme now under consideration. That there was no necessity occasioned by a dead-lock in carrying on the Government must be apparent, when we con sider that political parties, by a little forbear ance, would have avoided the dead-lock. Surely, if parties could unite as they did in June last, they could have united to prevent the difficulty complained of, and have put off the evil day perhaps forever, without entering upon a scheme to subvert the Con stitution. If a dead-lock existed, it ought to be attributed rather to the contention of parties than to any defect in our form of government, (Hear, hear ) The union be tween the Canadas took place in 1840 ; for some time afterwards each section was represented in the united Legislature by forty-two merabers. Upper Canada at the time of the union had. a population of 486,000, and Lower Canada 661,000. After the union took place, from 18 t4 to 1848, the majority of the Government was a very narrow one. The Government was kept in power by- two or three votes; yet during these yeara there was not a auggestion in favor of a change of Constitution for the purpose of increasing the majority. (Hear, hear.) Tbe aame number of membera con tinued to repreaent each section of the province until 1854, when tho number from each section waa increaaed to aixty-five, and has continued ao to the preaent time. Froin the year 1854 until the preaent time, there haa existed among the people of Upper Canada a strong agitation in favor of repre sentation according to population. That principle waa agitated by the Reform party at every election. It was the principal political topic, and membera were required to pledge themaelvea to maintain it under all circumatancea upon the floor of this House. And not only was the Refoim party committed to that principle, but many Con servatives were forced to declare themselves in favor of it. In 1858 aome of the mem bera of the Government sent an official letter to England, in whieh the difficulties of the country were graphically i;eterred to, and the agitation waa characterized aa being fraught with great danger to the peaceful and harraonious working ofour constitutibiial ayatem, and conaequently detrimental to the progreaa of the province. This document waa laid before Parliament in February, 1859, and in November of the aame year the Toronto Convention met, where the Reform party waa represented by about 570 prominent geutiemen from all p'arts of Upper Canada. At that meeting the griev- snces of which Upper Canada complained were diacuaaed in an able manner by gentle men fully acquainted with them, and capable of setting them forth. Although the project of a Federal union of the provinces had been brought before Parliaraent and the country in February, and the Convention met in Noveraber, and ample time waa given for its agitation, we find that the Convention did 74S not conaider that it afforded a proper remedy for the evila that exiated in Upper Canada. The reaolutiona paaaed by that Convention with reapect to the grievancea of Canada, and the proper remedy for them, were aa follow : — No. 1. — Reaolved, That the existing Legiala tive union of Upper and Lower Canada has failed to realize the anticipations of its promoters, has resulted in a heavy public debt, burdenaome taxa tion, great political abuaes. and univeraal dissatis faction through Upper Canada, and it ia the matured con-viction of this assembly, from the antagoniam developed, from differen.ce of origin, local interests, and other cauaea, that the union in ita present form can no longer be continued with advantage to the people. So much for the grievancea. No. 5. — ^Resolved, That in the opinion of thia assembly fhe best practical remedy for the e-vila now encountered in the government of Canada, ia to be found in the formation of two or more local governments, to which shall be committed the control of all mattera of a local and sectional character, and some joint authority charged with such matters as are necessary, common to both sections of the province. Such waa the remedy. The 4th resolution shows tbat the Federation of the provinces was not entertained as a remedy for the evils complained of by the Convention, for it resolved : — That without entering on the discussion of other objectiona, this assembly is of opinion that the delay which must occur in ob taining the sanction of the Lower Pro-vinces to a Federal union of all the British North Ameri can Colonies, places that measure beyond con sideration as a remedy for present evils. Now, if it had been the opinion of the people of Upper Canada, aa repreaented in that Convention, that a Federal union with the Maritime Provincea would prove a remedy for the grievances they were laboring under, they would have taken it into consideration. Either it did not suit the leaders of the Re form party at that time fo take up that plan as it was brought forward by men opposed to them, or else they did not believe it the true remedy. If they had believed it the proper remedy, there waa nothing to prevent ^them uniting with the Govemment to carry it out, with the cooperation of the other provinces. The only drawback to the adop tion of the scheme was the fact that its pro posers, were in office and likely to remain there. That to my mind is the only reason which can now be alleged for not taking it it u-ps at that "time. One ef the reasons assigned for calling that Convention together was, that although the population of Upper Canada was much larger than that of Lower Canada, and was constantly increasing, yet Upper Canada found itself without power in the administration of the affairs of the pro vince, (Hear, hear.) Another principal grievance under which Upper Canada labored was the unjust levying and diatribution ofthe public luqneys. It was contended that seventy per cent, of the annual taxation was collected from Upper Candida, and only thirty per cent, from Lower Canada ; on the other hand, when the money came to be expended, for every dollar that was expended in Upper Canada, a dollar "was also expendedin Lower Canada. And that appears to have been the opinion of prominent members of both poli tical parties ; .representation by population was demanded bv the people of the western section as a cure for that state of things. They considered that if they were repre aented in thia Houae according to numbera, they would be able to prevent the unjust diatribution o-f the public revenuea of the province. Now, the "great meaaure before thia Houae haa been considered by aome aa deaigned to create a nation, by othera aa a meana of increasing largely the material and comraercial interests of the country. I can not see that the Federation ofthe provincea bas anything of a national phase in it. For those who are dissatisfied with remaining as coloniata of Great Britain, it may be very well to look forward to the creation of a nationality or atate of national exiatence. When you apeak of national exiatence, you apeak of independence; and ao long as we are colonists of Great Britain we can have no national exiatence. (Hear, hear.) In New Brunawick thia queation haa been treat ed purely aa a queation of material intereat to tbe people. (Hear, hear.) In a work recently publiahed by the Hon. Mr. Cau chon, I find the following atatement of the way in which the queation ia treated in New Brunawick. The honorable gentleman saya, pag^ 26 : — The only point for them to consider in making a aelection would be the material question of profit or loss ; more or lesa of trade, more or less of taxes. The truth of this is clearly shown by the project of Coufederation itaelf, in which it will be aeen that the exceptiona affect only Lower Canada, and in the speeches made by Mr. Tillet, in New Brunawick, in which he atatea frankly and unequivocally, that with that province there can be but oue paramount question in the diaeuasion of the scheme, namely^ that of pecuniary interest. Will New Brunawick, under the union, pay more or leaa, receive more or less ; will the taxes im- 749 posed, under the union, be more or lesa than they now are ? The question haa been thua received by the preas and public men of that province, and they have ao diacuaaed it, with a -view to ac cept or reject it. To my mind, that ia the way in which the queation ought to be treated in thia province. Aa "a national matter it ought not to be con sidered at all. The true question is, whether the people of this province will be called upon to pay n:ore or less taxes, and enjoy more or less prosperity. (Hear, hear.) The agitation in connection with representation by population has continued during the past ten years. Going back to the time of the defeat of tho Cartier-Macdonald Ad ministration, we find that that Administra tion had considered it an open queation. The BIacdonald-Sicotte Adminiatration, which succeeded, reaolved to treat it aa a cloae queation. They agreed to leave it in ubeyance, but I never underatood that their supporters from Upper Canada agreed to abandon it. It was stated diatinctly at the time ofthe formation ofthat Governmeut, that any abandonment of the queation waa a matter altogether with the Government, and waa not binding upon their aupportera. (Hear, hear,) That government adopted what waa called the double-majority principle, but I never underatood tbat a majority of their aupportera from Upper Canada agreed to accept it aa a basis, or a meana of aecuring the aettlement of the grievances of Upper Canada, What the Upper Canada Reform party agreed to waa, that aa there waa great corruption and extravagance in the adminiati ation of tbe financea of thia country, for the sake of securing administrative reform they would allow tbe queation of repreaentation by popu lation to remain in abeyance for a time. However, the double-majority .principle would not work. (Hear, hear.) 'ihe Mac donald-Sicotte Government were defeated, and the Macdonald-Dorion Governm<^nt was formed. 'They treated the queation in the aame way as the Gautiek-Macdonald did — left it an open queation. While that government continued in office, there waa no special agitation for representation according to population, although in the House it waa very generally aupported by merabera from Upper Canada. That government reaigned, a new government waa formed, and, during the period of that new government'a exist ence, the hon. member for South Oxford had his committee appointed to take into consid eration the representation question. That" committee, it appears, had the matter under consideration for a long time. They made a report the same day the Government was defeated, but came to no conclusion what ever, except in the general atatement that moat of its members looked in the direction of a Federal Government. (Hear, hear.) This government was defeated on the ques tion of the $100,000 paid to the city of Blontreal. That vote took place on the 14th of June, the latter part of the resolution being as follows : — And in view of the facts above recited, this House would he failing in its duty if it did not express its disapprobation of an unauthori-'ed ad vance ofa large amount of public money, and of the subsequent departure from the conditions of the Order in Couucil under which the advance waa made.There waa never a vote aimed more distinctly than that at the Honorable the Blinister of Finance; it was declared by a majority of this House that he was the means of the loss of this 1100,000 to the country. The majo rity voted in that way, and affirmed that resolution. The moment it was passed a Ministerial crisis occurred, and it was under stood that tbe .Ministry had the sanction of the Governor General to dissolve the Houae ; within a few daya, aome of the very men who condemned the Miniater of Finance were willing to overlook his offence, to treat the vote of the House as of no consequence whatever, and to become colleagues of that honorable gentleman in the Government. (Hear.) Thus the present CoaUtion was formed with its policy of Confederation, I believe that the agitation for representation by population had been less active for three years preceding the formation of tbat gov ernment than at any tirae during the last ten years ; but the merefacc.of the Govern raent being defeated seemed to be a sufficient excuae for these honorable gentlemen tojoin men to whom they had been oppoaed for yeara, and to come down to this House with a proposal for a Confederation of the provin cea. For my own part, I am uot opposed to a Confederation of these provinces, on a proper baaia, although I would rather have aeen a legialative union of them preferred. 1 have no sympathy with those members in their opposition to the scheme, who, while opposing it, are equally opposed to legisla tive union and representation by population. I think, from the increase of population in 750 Upper Canada, that some change is neces sary ; and I cannot understand how hon. members, who are opposed to tuis scheme and alao to a legialative union, and to any change in repreaentation, can expect sym pathy from Upper Canadian members. It is not- the principle of the scheme that I object to. My objections I will state. Part ot the new Constitution proposes the con struction of the Intercolonial Railway. Now, when that question was first brought up in 1862, I was opposed to it. When it was first announced as tbe intention of the Macdonald-Sicotte Govemment to undertake the building of that road, I expressed myself as decidedly in opposi- , tion to it, on the very first opportunity that offered, and I have never since seen any reason to change the position I then took. In connection with this subject, I beg leave to cite the opinions of the hon. member for South Oxford, as then expressed. I do not do so in order to show tbat be has changed his mind with regard to this road, for I believe he does not conceal the fact himself. I make this citation to show not only wbat his views were, but what were the views, I believe, of the majority of the people of Upper Canada at that time, views whioh in my opinion they still entertain. It ia atated that the road ought to be built becauuae it ia neceaaary for the military defence of the country. It ia stated that it ought to follow the longest route, becauae the shorter one will bring it too near the boundary line of the State of Maine. (Hear, bear.) When it is conaidered that this road will unite with tho Grand Trunk at Riviere du Loup, and that the Grand Trunk ia at placea within twenty-six milea of the boundary of Blaine, I think that the amount it will contribute to the military defence ia of very little value. It ia ridiculoua to auppoae that the Americana would not be able to cut a railway only twenty-aix milea from their territory. If we are not atrong enough to hold and protect the road which runa through Maine, the lutercolonial would be of very little importance or uae. The opinion expreaaed in the Globe about thia railway aa a work of military defence was this — I quote from the isaue of the 18th September, 1862 : — But aa our opinion upon military mattera may not be worth much, we are prepared to adduce corroborativH teatimony in ita support. And then he cites the following from Blade- wood's Magazine : — On the whole we are inclined to think that until our miliiary frontier ia rectified, the con atruction of a railway between St. John and the St. Lawrence would, aa far aa military operationa are concerned, be money thrown away. If the Intercolonial Railway ia to be built, let ita frienda justify it upon bonajide grounds, and not upon the bogua plea that it la necessary for the military defence of the province. That was the opinion, I believe, of the majority of the people of Upper Canada at that time, that as a military defence this road would be completely useleaa. But we find that the propoaition to build the road ia inserted in one of these resolutions, the 68th, in the following terms : — The General Government shall secure, without delay, the completion of the Intercolonial Rail way from Riviere du Loup through New Bruna wick to Truro, in Nova Scotia. The next reaolution refers to the North- Western Territory, and is as follows : — 69. The communication with the North-Western Territory aud the improvementa required for the development of ihe trade of the Great West with the, aeaboard are regarded by thia ConfercLce aa subjects of the highest importance to the Feder ated Provincea, and shall be prosecuted at the earliest possible period that the state of the finances will permit. According to these resolutiona the con atruction of the Intercolonial Railway ia made a part of the Constitution of the country, and the road will have to be built. On tbe other hand the enlaigement of the oanals and the opening up of tbe North- West will depend upon the contingency whether the finances of the country will permit of the performance of these works. Now, the opening up of the North-West is a subject tbat has engaged the serious atten tion of many people in Upper ( anada. By a large majority of the population it is con sidered aa moat important for the intereat of of thia country that that territory ahould be opened up to settlement. I find the Great North-West is thus referred to by the Hon. Mr. Cauchon. in hia pamphlet on the Union of the Provincea of British North America, page 56 : — And what is Canada in extent compared to the Western prairies, the area and fertility of which can scarcely be appreciated or judged even with reports before us furniahed by Mr. Dallab, Govenor of the Hudsou'a Bay Company, aud Ur. Rae, an old factor, well known from hia reputation as an sstronomer, and aa having discovered the remaina of Frakklin and his unfortunate companiona, The latter, instructed to attempt the discovery of 751 a paaaage through the Rocky Mountaina for the Tranaeontinental Telegraph Company, atatea that the river Saskatchewan ia a great public highway, flowing through immense fertile valleys, in which wheat and barley might be grown in abundance. Mr. Dallas aUudea to it in the following worda : — The whole country ia more or leaa adapted to colonization. Two yeara ago I rode on horseback in the month of August over the greater part of that com, try. 'We had to wade as it were knee deep through tares and fitch. I saw there horses and oxen as fat aa any I ever found on the best paaturage grounda in England. Thoae animala had passed the winter iu the open air, without a mouthful of hay ; this will give a better idea of the climate here than if I were to furnish the variations ol the thermometer. I look upon thia country aa well adapted to settlement, and extraordinarily healthy. Every thing seems to thrive here ; the wheat crop ia of course rather uncerta.n, but oU other cereala and vegetablea obtain the same perfection that they do in England. Towards the north we find an area of timber land, and undulating prairies, which extend over the whole country. The lakea and rivers abound in fiah, and the prairiea with every apeciea of game, &c. Now, air, that ia a deacription of the country held forth to the people of Upper Canada aa a kind of aet-off againat the Intercolonial Railway, to be opened up whenever the atate of the financea will permit.- I object to the scheme, for the reason that it makes the opening up of auch a country a mere con tingency; and to ahow the intereat taken by the people of Upper Canada generally, I will refer to an article that appeared in the Globe about the time the Macdonald- Sicotte Government propoaed to build the Intercolonial Railway, on tbe 19th of Sep tember, 1862. It aaid: — We observe that Mr. Foley haa the good aense to reject the suggestion of Mr. Howe that the Quebec and Halifax road is iu fact an important link in the great Pacifio Railway through British territory. Not a pound of freigut nor a paaaenger which may come over the Pacific Railway, when it ia built, will ever aeek the port of Halifax. It ib au absolute injury to the Pacific Railroad lo repreaent that it is necessary to construct four hundred milea oi an utterly unproductive line before commencing the greater work with one- fifth of the aum per annum which ia to be devoted by the miniaterial scheme to the Intercolonial Railroad. We can open a practicable communi cation acrosa the continent ani annex to Can- ' ada half a contiuent of the richeat land yet unoccupied by civilized man. Not a penny are we to receive for thia purpoae, but £50,0(i0 per annum thrown away upon the rocks of Riviere du Loup. That, sir, was the opinion expresaed by the Globe newspaper so late as September, 1862, and I call the attention of the Houae to the faot that aa a very large proportion of the expenae of building this railroad ia to be borne by Upper Canada, would not the aaine aum, if so applied, open up thia magnificent country ? Are we not, in fact, deferring the opening of it up by apending a large aum of rao-icy in the opposite direction ? Hon. Mr. BROWN— Oh, no; quite in correct. BIr. scatcherd— Then another com plaint that has long been made in this coun try is, that we have a very large pub ic debt ; that the people are very highly taxed for tbe necessaries of life, and that in fact the chief articles consumed by the people can bear no more taxation. I think there can be no doubt that this complaintaa true to quite as great an extent as has ever been urged. Let ua look back and see what duties were paid upon the principal articles of consumption ten years ago, compared with the duties that they noW bear. I hold in my hand a statement showing the rates of duty from 1855 to 1865, and also the values of tbe chief articles for consumption im ported into thia province for the half-year ended 30th June, 1864 :— 3 n ««• r-T o 1— 1 t— ?H UTSt-l US iH O ur> '^M -W HM y-i O CO i-H cq l-H rH ri l-H < a M o o ^ p ffl o £ 't; • b. 752 Well, air, we flnd that some of these articles have been taxed-to an amount equal to one- half their value. The person who buys and pays 50 per cent, duty, gets in fact in value only one-half of the money paid. With the duty derived from these articles it is proposed by this acheme to do, what ? Why to apend $20,000,000 on this railway, and that money will have to be raised aome way or other out of the earnings of the people. I will cite another extract from the Globe with respect to the paying or auppoaed paying qualities of this road. On the 23rd of September, 1862, it said : — The scheme of the Government for the con struction of the Intercolonial Railway opens an account that never will be closed ; every storm of anow in the inhospitable regiona below Riviere du Loup will lay a new burden on the people of Upper Canada. The tax-payera will watch the passenger travel and freight traffic with the live liest interest, as indicating the extent of the de- mauds upon them for the year. The road will be run with a perfect consciousness that there is a prompt paymaster behind. With all the care that public companiea can employ, the expenditurea upon the small items connected with the running of a railroad is above all things difficult to con trol ; but what suma will be spent when it is the Government that will manage and the people of the province that will pay ? It was bad - enough when they consented that Canada should pay five- twelfths of the expeuditure, when in fact it will not receive one-twelfth of the benefit. Who can fail to see -the hand of the Grand Trunk in thia ? It is the dream of many persons in Nova Scotia that this Halifax and Quebec Railway will draw to their harbor the trade of the West, but it is a dream and nothing more. No passenger, no shipper of freight, will ever think of going or sending to Halifax when he can find shipping at Quebec or Portland. He -will not add the cost of seven hundred miles of railroad to the expenses of transit to benefit the people of Halifax. As to freight, the thing ia not to be apoken of. Neither freight nor passengers would such a line diaw from any point higher than Riviere du loup. There is a refreshing coolneaa in the demand that Canada ahall pay for the construction of a road which ia profeaaedly designed to draw away trade from its great estuary. la that not equally the caae now aa- then ? Who can fail to aee the hand of the Grand Trunk in thia Confederation acheme ? — (Hear, hear, and laughter.) Again, with reapect to thia Intercolonial Railway, L find the following language uaed in the Globe on the 26th September, 1862 : — With Upper Canada decidedly opposed to the acheme, and Lower Canada divided, we are happy to say that we do not see any great danger of hasty action. We are only astonished that the Ministry ahould have committed themselvea to a acheme which finds so little aupport in any part of the province. The Lower Province delegates humbiigged them beautifully. It is evident that Blue Noae ia a aharp fellow. He ia rubbed bright on hia rocks. We shall have to be careful in our dealings with him. If Lower Canada ia afraid of him because he is British, we must learn to watch him because he is not very rich but very keen and shrewd. Well, it waa supposed when the members of the Macdonald-Sicotte Government were dealing with these men in 1862, that they were humbugged beautifully, but when we got the best men in the country, the ableat and moat talented men, to deal with them, what kind of bargain did they make with theae ahrewd blue noaea ? (Hear, hear.) Why, inatead of Canada paying what waa propoaed by the Macdonald-Sicotte Gov ernment, the Lower Provinces made a much more favorable bargain with the cleverest men we have. (Hear, hear.) I contend, sir, that this scheme, at one jump, proposes to increase the public debt twenty millions of dollars. And another thing stated ia, that a aum neceaaary for the purpoae will be expended for the defence of the country ; and if we are to place any reliance upon tho report of Col. Jer-vois, the aum of about six milliona of dollara will have to be expended upon the defencea. From the reports which reached ua to-day by telegraph, it appears that the Imperial Government will expend for our defence. only the aum of £50,000. Hon. BIr. BROWN — Thehon. gentleman ia miataken. The Hon. Attorney General Weat distinctly stated to-day that there was an error in the telegraphic leport of the debate in the Imperial Parliament, and it is highly indecorous for the hon. gentleman to repeat tbese statements after tbey have been shown to be erroneoue. And I am now in a position to state, that we have ¦ had an answer to a telegram sent specially to New York to ascertain the fact from the London papers, that the sura asked for by the Impe rial Govemment for the defences of Quebec was £200,000, not £50,000 as stated by the hon. raember. Mr. SCATCHERD— Before the hon. member makes charges, he ought to have ascertained that this telegram had been brought to my notice. I took the statement as it appeared in the pubhshed telegraphic reports. He haa no right to charge me with repeating an incorrect statement, (Hear, hear.) 753 Hon. Mr. BROWN— It was not to that that I particularly referred; but the hon. gentleman all through his speech has repeat ed things which my colleagues as well as myself have repeatedly declared, from per sonal knowledge, to be incorrect. Hon. BIr. HOLTON— If the papers wero brought down there would be no mis apprehension. BIr. sc ATCHERD— 'W hat is the amount to be contributed by the Imperial Govern ment altogether for our defence ? Is it only £200,000 ? Hon. :Ir. BROWN— The hon. gentleman will see from the reports that that amount is intended simply for works at Quebec. The proportion to be contributed for the defences at Blontreal and westward is not stated, nor yet settled. Mr. SCATCHERD— I have been told for the first time that tbe Imperial Govemment will contribute anything towards the western defences; for the telegraphic reports say that, if they undertake to fortify Quebec, the Canadian Government will have to undertake the works at Blontreal and weatward. Now, we are told that thia scheme has reference both to local government and local defence, and as the cost of defensive works is stated by Col. Jervois to be six millions, I suppose we will bave to pay that too. Hon. BIr. BROWN— The cost may be a great deal more than aix milliona, poaaibly. We can aay nothing at present as to the cost. Mr. SCATCHERD— A great deal more. Then immense sums of money are to melt away like snow upon these works, and, in fact, there will be no limit to the expeudi ture. (Hear, hear.) However, passinij on from this point, I would like to ask, if Con federation is carried, in what poaition will the country stand in reapect to the public debt ? It appears that the population ofthe various proviuces, in 1861, was aa follows : — Upper Canada 1,396,091 Lower Canada ...1,110,664 New Brunawick 252, i '47 Nova Sootia .330,857 Newfoundland 130,000 Prince Edward Ialand 80,757 If Confederation takes place, theae pro- vinc-:s will be indebted as follows ; the public debt of Canada, according to the Public Accounts, amounts to $67,i!63,000 ; Nova Scotia is to be allowed to increase its debt to $8,000,000 ; New Brunswick wiU be 96 allowed to increase its debt to $7,000,000 ; the debt of Prince Edward Island is $240,- 000 ; and the debt of Newfoundland, $946,- 000, making, if the provinces are united, a grand total of $83,0U0,000 as the debt of the Federal Govemment. It may be said with reapect to Canada, that she is going into the Confederation with a debt of only $62,500,000; although that may be true, she will nevertheless owe the whole amount I have stated, which, if not paid by the Federal Government, will have to be paid by the Governments of Upper and Lower Canada. Hon. Mr. BROWN— Bly hon. friend will see that the debt of $5,000,000 that make up the $67,263,000 is due to ourselves, and that there are assets to meet it, which asaeta will be made over to the local govem menta. The reason it waa taken from the 167,263,000 was because it was due upon local account, and because there were local funds to meeO its payment. It was altogether apart and distinct from the general debt of the province. BIr. SCATCHERD— Whatare the assets? Are they sufficient to pay the interest upon the amount ? Hon. Mr. BROWN — Yes, quite enough. M . SCATCHERD— This $5,000,000 is part of the debt of the province, which I have put down at $67,263,000. Hon. Mr. BROWN— "Kes; but my hon. friend must see that there are local funds to meet it, juat in the aame way aa we deduct the Sinking Fund from the amount of the general debt. Mr. IIYBIAL — Two years ago the hon. gentleman taught ua to believe, and I heard him say that the debt of the country was $78,000,000. (^Laughter.) Hon. BIr. HOLTON— Was^the amount of the Sinking Fund always deducted by the hon. member '( Hon, BIh. BROWN— Yea ; I always de ducted it from the debt; but I did not deduct these local funds that are now placed against the sum of $5,000,000 to be borne by the local governments. Mt!. SCATCHERD— At the time Con federation takes place, there will be a debt weighing upon the provinces of $83,000,000, upon which interest will have to be paid, and the following additional debts, so far as we know, will be immediately contracted by the new GovernmeDt : Intercolonial Railway, $20,000,000. •'/.54. Hon. Mr. BROWN— No! no! My hon. friend muat surely see how wrong it is to make auch a atatement. It ia quite uncer tain what amount will be thrown upon the Federal Government for the conatruction of that road ; but, if itia built in the way which has been suggested by the Lower Provinr'es, it will cost no such sum, nor anything like the sum, mentioned by the hon. member for West Middlesex. Of courae, no one can at preaent tell in what way the Federal Government may decide tbat it shall be done; but if it is done in the way of a bonus to be paid on the completion of the road, and on security being given tbat the road shall be kept open for a certaiic term of years, it will cost nothing like the aum mentioned by my hon. friend. Hon. Mr. HOLTON— We have no such proposition before us. Hon. Mr. BROWN— But I believe tho Lower Provincea have such a propoaition before thera for a large section of the road — a proposition for a bonua of $10,000 per mile, which would complete tbe whole road for a sum infinitely lesa than my hon friend has mentioned. Therefore, my hon. friend leada the Houae quite aatray when he dogmatically puta down the coat of the Intercolonial Railway at $20,000,000. Hon. Mr. HOl.TON— Hon. Mr. Tilley aaya it will coat $12,000,000. Hon. BIr. BROWN— Perhapa Hon, Mr. Tilley thinka tiiat it raay cost that sum, but there are other hon. gentlemen who are quite aa wjU able to judge of the matter aa my hon. friend, Blr. Tilley, who place it at $8,000,000 ; and the money that will be necesaary for the purpoae will be borrowed under the Imperial guarantee, at a rate, I preaume, not exceeding 3J per cent. Mr. scatcherd— 1 would aak my hon. friend the Preaident of the Council if he haa not atated that the Intercolonial Rail way would coat $16,000,000 or $18,000,000 ? (Hear, hear.) Hon. Mr. BROWN- It ia quite probable ; my impreaaion at one time waa that it would coat $15,000,000 ; but then thia waa alwaya baaed on the idea of ita being built by the Govemment, and it waa one of my atrongeat objectiona to the acherae that the honorable geutiemen who now conatitute tbe Opposi tion intended to build it at the public coat, and run it at the public coat. Hon.Mr. HOLTON— Hon. gentlemen who now form the Oppoaition ? Hon. BIr. BROWN — I am not speaking of the hon. member for Chateauguay, but of his leaders. Hon. Mr. HOLTON— Will the honorable gentleman please refer to those he means more snecifically ? Hon. Mr BROWN— Tbe hon. gentleman wbo sits at his side is one of them. Hon. Mr. HOLTON— Surely the hon. gentleman does not refer to my hon. friend the member for Hochelaga (Hon. Mr. Dorion) ? Hon. Mr. BROWN— The hon. member for Bagot (Hon. Mr. Laframboise). Hon. BIr. HOLTON— No; the hon. member for Bagot only joined the Govern ment in 1863. Hon. Mr. BROWN— Tho hon. member for Cornwall (Hon. J. S. BIacdonald), is at any rate fully responsible. Hon. BIr. DORION— The government of my honorable friend (Hon. J. S. BIac donald) had a proposition before it som.e- what similar to this, and which was to build a railway ; but it was not said by what means. You, however, have bound yourself to build a railway, and if you do not find a company to conatruct it, you will have to build it and keep if open at your own cost. Hon. Mr. BROWN— Not exactly; and there is already a proposal to build a large portion of the line. Mr. SCATCHKRD-I think the course whicb the debate has taken shows the absolute necessity that the Government should have brought down a statement of the expense of this road, so that members might have been able to form some opinion in regard to ita coat. They might have called upon the engineer who surveyed the ;oute to make S5me approximation of the probable outlay. Wben, in the abaence of auch information, I riae in my place and say tbat according to the best data at my command, it will cost $20,000,- 000, I am met by the Hon. President of the Council proteating againat my making auch a atatement. But when I ask my honorable friend if he haa not stated that it will cost $16,000,000 or $18,000,000, he replies that he might have said it would cost $15,000,000. So that, according to my hon. friend himself, it ia safe to aaaume tbat for the Intercolonial Railway, the debt will be increaaed by $15,000,000. Thia, then, ia one of the new debts the new Government will be called upon immediately to contract. Then another debt will be required for the defenoes of the country. I put this sum down at $6,000,000. 755 But the Hon, President of the Council says it is impossible to say what the defences will cost, and they may cost a great deal more. Hon. Mr. BROWN— The hon. a,entleman should state raore carefuUy what I said. I did not speak of this country simply, but of the whole defences — those to be undertaken by the Imperial Government as well. Mr. SCATCHERD- 1 refer to the forti fications required for Quebec, Montreal, Kingston, Toronto and Hamilton. It is imposaible for ua to form any eatimate of what defencea may be required in St. John and Halifax, and other portiona of the Lower Provincea, But certainly the sura which will be required for the defences and for the armament of thoae defencea in Canada will not be less than $6,000,000. Adl thia and the aum required for the Intercolonial Railway to the debt already exiating, and it will be found that, almoat at the outaet of ita career, the Federation would labor under preaaure of a debt amounting to about $110,000,000. Hon. Mr. BROWN— Oh ! no, no. BIr. SCATCHERD— The fact is undeni able. Almost from the first day of its exis tence, the new Government will be called upon to pay interest, on account of public debt, to the amount of $3,809,668 for Canada; $750,000 for Nova Scotia and New Brunswick, and $59,383 for Newfoundland and Prince Edward Island ; then there is, over and above the subsidy of eighty cents per head, the sum of $115,200 to be paid yearly to Newfoundland, and $88,900 to be paid annually to Prince Edward Island. To this muat be added the interest on the out lay for the Intercolonial Railway. It haa been stated that money for this purpose can be borrowed at three and a half per cent,, but there is nothing to ahow that the ar rangement proposed to be entered into by the Macdonald-Sicotte Government, some two or three years ago, in reference to tbe borrowing of money at three and a half per cent., can now be carried out. We have no reason to believe that the proposed Federal Government will be able to borrow money on the same favorab e terms ; and, if the interest charged is at the rate of five per cent., there will be nearly $1,000,000 to be paid annually as interest on the Intercolonial Railway debt alone. Hon.Mr.BBOWN— A million of dollars! Five per cent, interest on money borrowed on the credit ofthe Imperial Government ! Mr. SCATCHERD— What has been shown us to the contrary? Hon. Mr, BROWN— My hon. friend muat have heard the statement of an arrange ment beitig made with the Imperial Govern ment for borrowing the necessary funds. BIr. scatcherd— I read in the pam phlet recently published by the hon. mem ber for Montmorency ("Hon. Mr. Cauchon), who is a warm supporter of the Government, and is supposed to bo an authority on this subject, that : — The population of Newfoundland being 130,000' $25 per head would eatabliah its deht at $3,250,' 000, and it would thus be placed on a level with the population of Canada, Nova Scotia, and New Brunawick with regard to their respective figures of population. But as that pro-vince owes $946,000, we must deduct this amount from the $3,250,000 ; thia would give a reault of $2,3!>4,000, on which the Federal Government will have to pay to New foundland an annual intereat of five per centum, viz: $115,200. But if the money can be obtained at three aod a half per cent., why ia it propoaed that the Federal Government ahall pay interest at the rate of five per cent, to the Provinces of Newfoundland and Prince Edward Is land ? Hon. Mr. BROWN— Doea not my hon. friend aee how this ia, and how unfair his conclusiona aro ? The reaaon why we are to pay theae provincea five per cent, ia, that we are about to throw upon them a large share of the burden of our public debt, upon which five per cent, interest is paid; if the people of Newfoundland and Prince Edward Island, who have little or no debt, assume debts of the other provinces, for which they have to pay five per cent, interest, it is only fair and juat that they ahould get their five per cent. back again. Mr. scatcherd— The Hon. Preaident of the Council says that at present we pay five per cent, on our indebtedness, but that in future we shall not pay so high a rate. Hon. Mr. BROWN— No one said so. What I said was that the Imperial Govern meot would guarantee the interest on the money to build the Intercolonial Railway, and that we should have to pay interest according to the terms on which the Imperial Government would be able to borrow, which will be about 3 J per cent. Mil SCATCHERD— And supposing the money is obtained on these favorable terms, 756 the interest for the Intercolonial Railway debt will be hall a n;illion of dollars. Hon. Mr. BROWN— $350,000, Mr, scatcherd— At the reduced rate of interest, the Federal Government will start with an annual burden, in the shape of inter est, of at least $5,000,000. I had put the sum down at $6,158,851. Hon. BIr. BROWN— How much does my hon. friend make the difference in the interest— $1,158,851? Mr. SCATCHERD— Yea. Hon. BIr. BROWN— Bly hon. friend i= entirely wrong in hia calculationa. But will my hon. fiiend anawer this queation : How much additional money ahall we receive into the treaaury iu the shape of euatoma dutiea from the Lower Provincea? Mr. scatcherd— But wc are given to underatand that fne euatoma duties, inatead of being increased, will be decreased. If, however, the Lower Provincea, whicb now pay on an average, we will say 5 per cent., shall be caUed upon to pay at leaat 20 per cent., and up to 40 percent., they will never agree to Confederation. Hon. BIr. BROWN— Bly hon. friend is all wrong in his figures, but that is really not the point. When he saya that the intereat will be increased, he ahould alao state what we are to get back in tbe ahape of cu,storaa dutiea from the Lower Provinces. What is the use of giving one side and not the other ? BIr. SCATCHERD— I think that any person who will aerioualy contemplate thia propoaition of the Government, must come to the concluaion that this Confederation scheu e is nothing more or leas than a scheme to construct the Intercolonial Railway. (Hear, hear.) If it was not necessary for some parties tbat that road should be constructed, we should have had no Con federation scheme Another objection, to my mind, on the face of these resolutions, has reference to the subaidy of 80 centa per head. The 64th reaolution provides that the General Government shall pay 80 centa. per head of the population of 1:61 to the several pi'ovinces for local purposes : — Upper Canada , $1,116,872 Lower Canada 888,531 Nova Scotia 264,685 New Brunswick 201,637 Newfoundland 104,000 Prince Edward Island 64,505 j tlunk it will be adnutted by every meinber from Upper Canada, that if the people of Upper Canada had representation by popu lation, they would have no deaire to change the present system of government. (Hear, hear.) We in Upper Canada contend that we pay seventy per cent of the taxation, while Lower Canada pays only thirty per cent. Now, what will be the effect of the 64th reaolution ? Under that resolution. Upper Canada will receive a subsidy of $1,116,000, and on the principle which has always been contended for in Upper Canada, the proportion of tbat sum which Lower Canada will pay, as a member of the Con federation, will be thirty per cent., or say •8335,000, while Upper Canada will pay seventy per cent., or $781,000. We have been paying the larger proportion of the taxation, and Lower Canada the smaller proportion, and the object of going into this Confederation is, tbat the local governments should have the management of their own local affairs, and that we should raiae tho money necessary for our own looal purpoaea, while Lower Canada should raiae the money neceasary for her local purp laes. But in tbia inatance, the General Government will collect that money in Upper Canada in tbe large proportion which I have juat atated ; on the otber hand. Lower Cauada will get a aubsidy of $888,000. Upper Canada, aa a raember of the Confederation, will pay $621,000 of that sum, according to the admitted ratio in which she contributes to the public exchequer, and Lower Canada will pay 30 per cent., or $267,000. Mr. lope MACKENZIE— The hon. gentleman is entirely mistaken in his argu ment. BIr. SCATCHERD— By thia arrange ment, then. Upper Canada, in compariaon with Lower Canada, will pay to the General Government yearly, for all time to come, in excesa of Lower Canada, $286,000 more than she would pay were theae subsidies collected direct Irom each province. Hon. Mr. BROWN- -The calculation of ray hon, friend ia entirely incorrect. But I do not wish to interrupt hira, unlesa he de sires it. Mr. SCATCHERD— I have no objectfon. Ia not the principle on which 1 have raade the calculation correct ? Hon. BIr. BROWN--N0, it is not cor rect. The hon. gentleman ahould remember that the relationa between Upper and Lower Canada will be entirely changed when all these provinoes are brought together. 757 Mr. SCATCHERD— If there is no change, the principle is correct. Hon, BIr. BROWN — Of course, so far as Upper Canada and Lower Canada are con cerned. But the hon. gentleman must see that by the introduction of the Maritime Provinces into the union, an entire ehange is made in the relations between Upper and Lower Canada, There will not only be a change in the way in which tbe taxes con tributed by the people reach the treasury, but an immense change also in the way in which those moneys will be distributed, and by both Upper Canada wil! profit. BIr. SCATCHERD— The hon. gentleman admits that the principle is correct, and, unless as affected by altered circumstances, it will bring out the result I have stated. Hon. Mr. BROWN— But we know what the circumstances will be. The honorable gentleman sbould take up the whole of the financial arrangements of the soheme. It is not fair to take up a mere portion of them. If he had looked at the commercial tables of all the provinces, he would have seen that his calculations were entirely erroneous. BIr. SCATCHERD— What I say is this, that if, instead of paying all the local gov ernments this subsidy of 80 cents per head. Upper Canada had been left to collect from her own people her $1,116,000, and Lower Canada to collect from her people the $888,000 whioh she is to receive, that would have been what we have been contending for in Upper Canada. Hon. Mr. BROWN— No doubt. BIr. SCATCHERD— WeU, we have always contended that we were willing to collect the moneys required for our own local purposes in Upper Canada, and that Lower Canada should do the same. We are entitled, according to that principle, to $286,000 more than we shall receive ; and the proposed arrangement, therefore, I say is Unjust; otherwise we have been contending for what was incorrect for the last ten years. It should have been made part of the scheme, that whatever Upper Canada required for her local expenditure should be obtained by taxes levied on her people, and that whatever LoWer Canada required for the like purposes should be levied in the same way. But that is not the scheme, so that we gain nothing with regard to our paying mOre thau we receive, which has been bur complaint hitherto. Hon. Mr. BROWN — I am surprised that toy honorable friehd should g'o so far. I *gree ^tii him so fal- as iny bWh judgnierit is concerned, that it would have been a de Arable arrangement if we could have got each pro vince to collect, by direct taxation, tbe moneys it required to meet its own local expenditure. But the honorable gentleraan raust not say that because we have not got that length, -we leave the matter exactly as it was. There is a very great change, and the proposed system is much more just than that existing hitherto. (Hear, hear.) Mr. SCATCHERD— But wUl the hon. gentleman not say that it would have been desirable that these sums, instead of being coUected by the General Governraent, should have been collected by each province? Hon. Mr. BROWN— Certainly ; that was what I contended for. But we had not the making of the whole of the bargain ; and surely the honorable gentleraan cannot contend that because wc did not get everything our own way, we should therefore give up the whole scherae. I apprehend, however, it will be found, if this scheme goes into operation, that the burdens on the people of Upper Canada will be very different from what they have been in tiraes past. BIr. SCATCHERD— WeU, the honorable gentleman adraits th^t Upper Canada wiU not get in this scheme all he contended for, and I say that if ibis acherae goes into oper ation, the poaition of Upper Canada wUl be no better than it wa-^ before. I give thia as a glaring instan..e — there are others which cannot ao readily be detected — of the w ly in which tbe juat clairaa and intereats of Upper Canada have been overlooked. I do not aee hew honorable gentlemen will be able to an swer the charges brought against them by their constituen! a, that they have deliberately agreed, that for all tirae to come there sbaiil be that advantage of one section over the other. If Upper Cai'ada ia to get no more benefit from the' Confederation than I can find in these resolutiona, 1 am at a loss to see how she is benefited by thera. The expense of an Intercolonial Railway is to be saddled on her farraers and her people generally — they are to pay the larger portion of that expense, and that, so far as I ca i see, is to be the grand effect of thia scbeme. (Hear, hear.) Another objection I have to the pro ject relates to the proposition with reference to the Conatitution of the Legialative Coun cU. I say it is a retrograde step to do away with the elective principle in the Legislative Council — (hear, hear) — and a step that wiU be very unpalatable to the people of Upper Canada. I do not see why th6 large province 758 of Canada, containing a population of two and a half mUlions, should have been obliged at the Conference to give up a point involv ing so iraportant a principle, to the smaU provinces containing a population of only 800,000. (Hear, hear.) I say take those resolutions from first to last — there are seven ty-two of tbem — let any man read thera, and he cannot fail to come to the conclusion that from the first to the seventy-second, it is concession after concession on the part of Upper Canada to thoae Lower Provinces. Col. HAULTAIN — What doea New Brunawick aay ? Mr. scatcherd— What I aay ia, that I cannot aee why this large province ahould have been overruled at tbat Conference with reference to thia queation of the Legialative Council. What did it matter to New Bruna wick if the people of Upper Canada deaire to have their legialative councUlors elected ? If New Brunswick desires to have hers nom inated by the Crown, let it be so ; but why prevent Upper Canada from having hers elected by the people ? (Hear, bear.) Then the 43rd reaolution I conaider objection able. The firat clauae of that reaolution authorizea New Brunswick to impose du ties on the export of tiraber, logs, maats, apara, deala, and aawed lumber. If thia In tercolonial Railway is constructed, it will have very little paaaenger traffic during a large portion of the year, and I auppoae it will do a large buaineaa in freight. Like other railwaya, it will be the raeana of conveying a large quantity of timber to the seaboard. It appears to me that any one interested in the timber buaineaa of thia country must aee that every atick of timber that will go on the Intercolonial Railway from Canada into New Brunawick wiU be liable to thia export duty. I aak the Honorable Preaident of the Council if that will not be the fact ? Hon. Mr. BROWN— I think the honor able gentleman could not have been preaent when the Honorable Finance Mini.ster ex plained thia matter. This export duty is the same as is paid on timber in this country in the shape of stumpage. Mr. scatcherd— That is not the point ; no timber can go out of New Bruns wick without paying an export duty. Is not that the law at the present time ? Hon. Mr. BROWN— No timber can go from our forests without paying a duty of exactly the same kind. Hon. Mr. holton— Exactly the same? Hon. Mr. BROWN— What is the differ ence ? Hon. Mr. HOLTON— Does the honorable gentleman say that this export duty and stumpage are exactly the same in their nature ? Hon. Mr. BROWN— I say exactly the same, with reference to the lumber from which the Government of New Brunswick now de rives a revenue. There will be some instances in which it wUl not work in exactly the same way. Hon. Mr. HOLTON— Such as timber cut on private lands ? Hon. Mr. BROWN— There wUl be a dif ference as regards that. This was the way in which this arrangement arose. For myself, I regret it should be put in that shape, for I am opposed to all export duties. (Hear, hear.) Of course it was arranged that the Local Gov emraents ahould have the landa, minea, min erala and Crown tiraber of their respective provinces. From our Crown timber here we receive a large revenue in the shape of stump age, whicb is to go to Upper and Lower Can ada respectively for their local purposes. But the New Brunswick delegates said — " We do not levy a stumpage duty on our Crown tim ber as you do ; we find it better to le-vy it in the shape of an export duty " — and we com plied with their desire that they ahould have their looal revenue in that shape as an offset to our stumpage duty. Mr. McKELLAR— I think the question raised on this point by the honorable member for West Blidjlesex is hardly worth discuss ing, becau.se timber from Canada wiU never be carried over the Intercolonial road. It does not pay to carry it over our own roads, and it would certainly never be carried by railway all that distance. (Hear, hear.) Mr. T. C. WALLBRIDGE— It is carried from Canada to Portland over the Grand Trunk for shipbuilding purposes. ( Cries of "No, no.") Mr. SCATCHERD— My honorable friend from South Oxford has not come to the point, which is this, that it is not right for the people of New Brunswick to charge this duty on timber. What right have they to levy an export duty on our timber ? Yet this resolution, it appears to me, would give them that right. Hon. Mr. BROWN— My honorable friend will recollect tbat these resolutions are to be embodied in a statute, and the intention will be much more clearly stated in it. It was not by any means the intention that one pro- 759 vince should have the right to impose an export duty on the products of another. Mr. SCATCHERD— It seems to me, however that the meaning of that resolution is clearly as I have stated it. This scheme is objectionable on the face of it, because it will largely increase tbe public debt for the erec tion of defences and the construction of the Intercoli nial Railway. Hon. BIr. BROWN— What return wUl we get for that ? Mr. SCATCHERD— Why, according to the extracts I have just read, we wUl get nothing at all. Hon. Mr. BROWN— The hon. gentleman says that the construction of this railway to the Maritime Provinces will involve us in in creased debt. Now, should he not let us, in all candor, know how much we are to get in the shape of revenue from those provinces, as an offset. Mr. SCATHERD— It is generally admit ted that we wUl receive no advantage from the construction of the Intercolonial Railway. Hon. BIr. BROWN— Who admits it ? Mr. SCATCHERD— I say that this road will have to be run at the expense of this province, and not only that, but it will be a piece of corruption from tbe tirae of the turn ing of the first shovelful of earth. All the officers of the road wiU be appointed by the Government, and it will be an everlasting expense. It could not have been better ex pressed than it was by the hon. member for South Oxford in his own paper, tbat every storm of snow would be watched with the Uveliest anxiety by the people of Upper Ca nada. (Hear, hear.) I know it is said that the Government will open up the North-West when the atate ot the financea permit; but how much better would it be to have the money taken, which ia to be appropriated for this unprofitable railway, and expended at once in opening up that territory ? It ia doubtful whether there ia any land in that part of the country through which the rail way ia to pass, fit for cultivation. Then, ac cording to the view taken by my honorable friend from South Oxford, the only products shipped on it will be thoae grown eaat of Riviere du Loup. (Hear, hear.) The pay ment of subsidies from the General to the Local Governments, the doing away with the elective principle in the Legislative Council, and the construction of the Intercolonial Railway, are to my mind grave objections to the Confederation. I consider that such a measure ought not to become law until it has been submitted to and pronounced upon by tbe people. (Hear, hear.) Yet it is the de clared intention of the Government not to sub mit it to the people for their opinion. Now, I think the Government are not keeping faith with the people in this respect. At a dinner in Toronto, in November last, the honorable member for South Oxford is reported, by the Ghbe of Nov. 4th, to have said : — Hon. Mr. Bro-wn — A friend aaka if the scheme ia to go into operation without being submitted to the people. That is a matter for the different Parliaments to consider — whether it shall be done, or whether it ahall uot be done. It ia not, I apprehend, for the Adminiatration of this pro vince, or any other province, to aay that this meaaure ahall or shall not be aent especially to the people. We are in the handa of the repre aentativea of the people, and by their decision we are ready to abide. How different ia that declaration from the conduct of the Government now, when they come down and aay they are going to uae every meana to carry the acheme through without submitting it to the people 1 (Hear, hear.) At the same dinner there was another honorable member of the Government present, the Hon . Minister of Finance, and I will read to the House what he said on the question of appealing to the people : — They would have desired to see a Central Gov ernment, extending ita segia over all interests. But there were difiicultiea which rendered thia im possible, and in meeting these difhculties he trusted that the measure which would be submit ted to the people, to the Imperial Parliament, and to the Provincial Parliaments, would be found to be one which protected local interesta, while national interests had been reserved for tha central power, which he hoped would manage them in a way to do honor to the race from which we had sprung. (Cheers.) There ia the express declaration of two Ministera of the Crown that thia measure, before it would become law, ahould be sub mitted to the people. (Hear, hear.) Now, ia the courae indicated- that which haa been adopted ? Is the scheme to be submitted to the people ? No ; they bring down the scheme and say that it must be paaaed in ita entirety, and so far from submitting it to the people, they move tbe previous question to prevent the possibility of an amendment to that effect being put. Some members who have pre ceded me contended that it would be un constitutional to submit it to the people, and they cited cases in support of their argument. But in those cases. Parliament had full power to dispose of the question then before 760 it; this Parliament has no power to dispose finally of this question. The British Par liament can act with or without tbe consent of tliis Parliament ; therefore, it appears to me that the cases cited arc not appUcable to our case, and 1 maintain that submitting the reso lutions to the people would prevent irritation hereafter. (Hear.) How can it be pietended that if the ii:easure is not passed now, the time will never occur again ? So far as Upper Canada is concerned, I think ahe might hope to obtain auch a scheme as this at any time — (hear, hear) — aud I am wiUing to take the respon-ibility of voting against this Con federation PCI eine. (Hear, hear.) Bin. JOHN MACDONALD (Toronto) said — BIr Speaker, before recording my votj on this queation, I deaire plainly to state the poaition which I occupy in regard to it. I deaiie to say that I am in favor of Confederation. (Hear, hear.) The firat reso lution wbich was propoaed at the Quebec Conference and agreed upon, namely, that a Confederation of all the British North America Provinces, on principles just to all, was desiiable, I have uo hesitation in saying, meets with my entire approval. We have been told that the Conference at Quebec exhibited one of tho grandest spectacles which the world ever beheld. (Hear, hear.) I may be wrong, but I fail to see it in that light. I am prepared to award 10 honorable gentlemen all the sincerity in meeting together to settle the aec tional difficulties ol thia' country to which they can poaaibly lay claim, and it ia a matter of great regret to me that I find myself to-night compelled to record my vote againat hon. gentlemen with whom it haa been my pleasure to be associated ever since I entered political life. But, sir, it is with me a matter of conacientioua conviction, and I am bound, whatever the conaequences may be, to follow thoae convictions. (^Hear, hear.) Now, Mr. Speaker, I think that hon. gentlemen, in bringing thia acheme down and aaying that we muat take it just aa it ia without making any amendment to it whatever, are asking too muoh. (Hear, hear.) That is aaauming the document ia perfect in every particular, or as nearly so as posaible. If we are to undertake the discuaaion of thia queation, and yet not be allowed to alter it in any aingle particular so as to adapt it to the circum- tancea of the province, I really cannot conceive foi- what purpose this House has been called together. (Hear, hear.) We have heard a good deal said about the lead ing Opposition members in all the provinces having received invitationa to enter tho Conference for the free discussion of the question, but I would ask, sir, on what occaaion the Opposition of Lower Cauada were invited by the Government to take part in that Conference ? (Hear, hear.) I understood the hon. member for Blontr real Centre (lion. Mr. Rose) to say, that although he did not agree with some of tho minute detaila, yet rather than jeopardize the adoption of tJie whole scheme, he was prepared to vote for it juat as it stands. Now, I would ask if the question of our School law is a minute detail ? I would ask if the appropriation of the debt between Upper and Lower Canada is a minute detail ? I would ask if the question of the defences of the country is a minute detail ? And yet we are asked to vote for this measure without having these particulars laid before ua for our consideration. (Hear, hear.) It is better, the hon. gentleman says, that we should vote upon it in ignorance of theae things, and leave the result, if wrong, to be -righted by future legialatora. Well, the member may vote in ignorance if he prefera to do thinga in that way, but as I am constituted (it may be a fault of mine), I cannot do that. I will aever record a vote in this House unless I know, or have tried my utmost to know what I am doing (Hear, hear.) The Hon. Minister of Fiuince, in the very able speech which he delivered at Sherhrooke, alluded to the great difficulties which sur rounded tbe School question. He intimated that the question was one of such magnitude, that a great deal of time was required for its consideration, and then invited the cooper ation of all intelligent men to the solution of that difficulty. If then the smaller ques tion is of so much importance, why should the larger one be forced upon this House with such haste ? Does it require lesa time for conaideration than tbe smaller one to which I have alluded ? It seems to me very much Uke building a house first, and after it is built proceeding to examine the founda tions. The hon. gentleman spoke of the improvement which this scheme had already secured in the value of our securities in En gland. Now, it does uot require much thought to discover that it is an easy matter to affect the stock exchange either favorably or unfa vorably. Securities go up to-day and down to-morrow. A man in business may get an 701 endorser whioh may for a short time improve his credit; so we seek to improve our credit by an aUiance with the Maritime Provinces. Blr. Speaker, there are other and far better ways of improving our credit, the very best of which is living within our means, bring ing our expenditure within our income, and- establishing our financial operations on a sound and healthy basis. Rest assured, tbe monied men of England wiU attach much greater importance to such a course than any alliance we can posaibly make with other provinces, for the purpoae of improving our credit. (Hear, hear.) Well, sir, we are told that this great scheme is to settle all our sectional difficulties. I may perhaps be very dull of comprehension, but I must con-_ fess that I cannot see that. We have difficul ties amongourselves, as scenes that have tran spired on the floor of this House have fully proved, and we seek to settle those difficulties by forming a union wilh provinces that are at loggerheads among themselves. (Hear, hear.) Now, sir, we have long contended in Upper Canada for a just representation in Parliament, and we are told that, because we are going to get seventeen more members than Lower Canada in the Federal Legislature, all the difficulties for the settlement of which representation according to popula tion was sought, are to be thereby remedied. I cannot see that that result will follow, because io the Upper House there is still to be an equality of votes, and 1 quote now from the pamphlet written by the Hon, Mr. Cauchon to show tbat he is of opinion that any advantage which wo gain in the Lower House will be completely paralyzed in the Upper Chamber. He says ; — The Constitution of ;i840 only stipulated for equality in the Lower House. Let us auppoae that the majority of the Legialative Council had choaen to adapt a project of law which would hive been hostile to the interests of Lower Canada ; as Upper and Lower Canada were equally represented in the Lower House, the hill adoDted by the Upper House would have been certainly thrown out, and it is by the Lower House alone that we have, up to thia time, been able to protect and save our inatitutiona, taking into account alao the good-will ahown to us by Lower Canadian repreaentativea of English dea cent. 'Why has the Legislative Asaembly alwaya been the battlefield witti reapect to the struggle that haa been going ou for the laat fourteen yeai a hetween Upper and Lower Canada on the ques tion of repreaentation by population? it is because there alone equality haa existed, and there alone conld be found the meana of solving 87 the conatitutional problem. If then, instead of the preaent Constitution, we substitute local legislatures, and over them the Federal Parlia ment, we shall see in that case precisely the inverse of that which we have alwaya observed iu our present legislature, that ia to aay, that on the occurrence of any local misunderstanding, the struggle will he carried from the Lower Hpuse to the Legialative Council, and preciaely fo the redBona that we have adduced. Mr. Speaker, we have here, in the language of one of the moat determined opponents of the. principle of representation according to population, very good reasons given for coming to the concluhion that the granting of increased representation in the Lower Legislature will amount to nothing, while the same just prii.ciple is denied in the constitution of the Legislative Council. I hope I may be incorrect, but I am of opinion that if thia acheme goea into opera tion, we ahall witneaa the difficivlty alluded to on the floor ofthe Confederate legialature in less than aix months after ita organization. (Hear, hear.) And the unfair repreaentation which Upper Canada will have in the Upper Chamber muat exiat throughout all tirae. Nor will ahe be able to add even one member, no matter how great may be the preponderance of her population over other parta of the Confederacy And thia equality of votes between Upper Canada and Lower Canada will act, aa Mr. Cauchon tella his Lower Canadian friends, as a perfect counter poise to the legislation of the Lower House. In conuection with this subject, there is another feature of the scherae which is painful to contemplate, in which we are, I think, about to advance backwards. The quah fication of a Legislative Councillor is now $8,000 ; but it ia proposed to reduce it to $4,000, which I regard as retrogressive. And in the case of Prince Edward Island and Newfoundland, the qualification may be personal property as well as real estate — in other words, the legialative councillors from those provinces may be peddlers of jewelry or any other commodity, whoae stock in trade may be burned up while they are attending a session, rendering them unable longer to qualify. (Hear, hear.) But there is a much worae feature than that : it will have the effect of introducing into the Upper Chamber a class of needy adventurers who in a crisis may be approached without very much difficulty, and who might plead th. ir own circumstances as an ample apology in quieting their consciences for the votes they 702 might give. Now, Mr. Speaker, I object further to this scheme on the ground of the cumbrous and expensive machinery of the local governments. I know it has been asserted that it will not cost the country any more than under the present system, and I will entirely give up my position if any hon. gentleman can prove to me that a man will not go behind 'who doubles or even increases the number of his employes without at the same time increaaing the capital and extent of hia buainess. I see in. thia scheme the introduction and increase — the rapid increase — of a large number of consumers, without correspondingly increasing the producers of the country. If I err in this I err in good company, for I quote the worda ofthe Secre tary of State for the Colonies, BIr. Cardwell, who says on this point : — A very important part of this subject ia the expense which may attend the working of the Central and the Local Governments. Her Ma jesty's Government cannot but express the earnest hope that the arrangements which may be adopted in this reapect may not be of such a nature as to increase, at least in auy considerable degree, the whole expenditure, or to make any material addition to the taxation aud thereby retard the internal industry or tend to impose new burdens on the commerce of the country. Now, air, I object aa a weatern man (and I will be pardoned if I allude to the aectional queation) to the great injustice which will be done to the people of Upper Canada in the heavy burdens whioh she will have to bear in tho carrying on of the General Government. In the able speech delivered by the Hon. the Blinister of Finance at Sherhrooke, he said that when the population of Canada should reach five millions (a larger population than that of the proposed Confederation at preaent), the revenue which would be derived for public purposes would not be a farthing more than now. One hon. gentleman has said in this House that it is as cheap to govern three millions as five millions of people. That may be true, but one million of money will not go as far as five millions, in making those local improvements which Upper Canada would require, and to which the people of Upper Canada would be justly and fairly entitled. Then I object further to the scheme, because while Upper Canada will contribute the largeat amount to the general revenue, she will also have to bear the heavy share of defensive and other public works in the Maritime Provinces and Lower Canada. (Hear, hear.) I object further to the in definite postponement of the opening up of the North-West, the settlement of the valleys of the Saskatchewan and the improvement of our canal system. (Hear, hear.) There is a very marked difference in the phraseo logy of two of the clauses of this scheme which muat strike any one reading them aa extraordinary. The one declares that the Intercolonial Railway shall be built. There can be no mistake about that, nor is there any possibility of doubt. The language is definite — it is to be built immediately. (Hear, hear.) The other clause (69) reads thus : — The comunication with the ' North-Western territory and the improvements reqjired for the development ofthe trade ofthe Great 'West with the seaboard are regarded hy this Conference aa aubjecta ofthe highest importance to the» Feder ated Provinces, and shall be proaecuted at the earlieat possible period that the atate of the financea will permit. (Hear, hear.) This certainly is the most ambiguous language that could well be em ployed in reference to this great and desirable work. However, we are told that this is a mistake, and that the opening up of the North-West will go on simultaneously with the construction of the lutercolonial Rail way; but we find Hon. Mr. Tilley asserting in the Lower Provinces that there was no aerioua intention of going on with thia work at preaent, and that a large aum waa to be apent at once io New Brunawick in improv ing its defences. Ifl may be allowed to give an illustration of the uncertain and evasive cha racter of this proviaion of the scheme, I will quote from a cartoon in Punch, which I have here before me. It refers to a Russian State paper on Polish affairs. England, France and Austria examining it, thus explain it : — England, " It seems to meani — Eh? H'm !" France, " I think it means— Eh ? Ha !" Austria, " I suspect it meana — Eh? Ho 1" Chorua, " And we don't know what it meana." Hon. Mr. McGEE— That appears to be quite correct in your caae. BIr. JOHN BIACDONALD— Well, my ignorance ia pardonable when there ia ao much ignorance of the scheme even among members of the Blinistry. (Hear, hear.) I can fancy the question of the opening up of tho North-W^st coming up in the first session of the Federal Legislature and the manner in which it will be received. 763 New-Brunswick will say : " Oh we cannot go on -with this work until the Intercolonial Railway is completed, and New Brunswick is put in a complete state of defence." Nova Scotia will say : " When the finances permit we will proceed with it ;" and all the provinoes will unite in saying, when this provision of the Constitution is pointed out to them, " Oh, we don't know what it means." (Laughter.) I object to this scheme, sir, on account of the burdens it proposes to place on this country in the shape of defence. (Hear, hear.) We have had glowing accounts trom the Hon. Minister of Agriculture and others about the territory that will belong to this Confederation. We are told that it will extend for four thousand miles from ocean to ocean ; and will it be believed that we in Upper and Lower Canada, with a population less than that of the city of London, will be called upou to defend such a frontier — a territory, we are told, as great as the conti nent of Europe ? (Hear, hear. ) The thing is an anomaly that no country in the world presents except our own. I regard this addition of territory by Confederation as a source of weakness instead of strength ; and to my mind the casting of the burden of defence upon this country ia like inveating a sovereign with all the outward semblance of royalty, and giving him a dollar per day to keep up the dignity of his court, or like expecting the engine of one of the small ferry steamers which ply on the river here to Point L^vis, to propel the Great Eastern across the Atlantic. (Hear, hear.) Sir, I am not unmindful of the fostering care of the British Island over all its colonies. I am not unmindful of all that England has done to guard and protect her colonies through out the world, and to develope their re sources. But when we see by the telegraphic reports of to-day that the Imperial Govern ment is about to expend £50,000 — or if you accept the correction of the Government, as stated this evening, £200,000 — upon the defences of this country, I ask in all serious ness what is that amount for the protection of an exposed frontier such as our's ? Hon. Mr. BROWN— I do not wish to interrupt my hon. friend ; but I must say that when he has heard it stated that this £200,000 is to be granted by the Imperial Government simply for the defence of the city of Quebec, I am amazed how he can get up here and charge the Imperial Govern ment with the intention of giving only that amount for the defence ofthe whole country. Hon. Mr. DORION— It is distinctly stated in the report of the debate in the House of Lords that that is all the Imperial Government intend to appropriate. Hon. BIr. BROWN— I beg the hon. gentleman's pardon, but it is not so stated. I think the hon. gentleman will find that there are now large works going on at Halifax and St. John ; and that besides the appropriation for works at Quebec, the ques tion of the amount to be contributed for the defence of Canada elsewhere is still under the consideration of the Imperial Govern ment. Hon. Mr. DORION~Oh, no j only the question of the naval defence. Hon. Mr. BROWN— Well, the hon. gentleman may not accept the statement I make, but I am quite sure the hon. member for Toronto will, that the question of the defence of this province at Montreal and westward is still under fhe consideration of the Imperial Government, and at this moment is undecided. Mr. JOHN MACDONALD— Of course, ¦ I was aware that the £200,000 proposed to be appropriated were for works at Quebec. Hon. Mr. BROWN— The hon. gentle man should not have stated, then, that they were for the defence of the whole of the province. Mr. JOHN BIACDONALD— I am free to admit that this was a mistake, and that the amount was for the defences of Quebec, Hon. Mr. BROWN— Well, it was very wrong to repeat it. Mr. JOHN MACDONALD— Well, I ask that if the Imperial Government will appropriate only this sum, where, at such a period of imminent danger as the present is said to be, and with every point of the fron tier perfectly defenceless, is the money to come from to place all parts pf the province in a position to resist aggression, and who is to provide it ? The hon. member for Lambton, the other night, in alluding to the abiUty of this country to raise and maintain a standing army for our protection, instanced the case of Denmark, which he said was able to support an army of 20,000 men. I certain ly thought the allusion a most unhappy one, and one would have imagined thatthe recent history ofthat country would have prevented its being made. (Hear, hear.) But in regard to all the features in this scheme objec tionable to Upper Canada, and adverse to 764. its interest. Upper Canadian members in this House say, " Ob, let us have Confederation, and we will make all these things right by subsequent legislation." Well, I say to every Upper Canadian that if he goea into this treaty with a view of violating its letter and spirit subsequently, he is unfaithful to the duty he owes to "Upper Canada as well as to Lower Canada and the sister provinces. (Hear, hear ) I do not desiie to enter into a treaty with the object of escaping its obli gations at some future time ; and it is because I wish to do what is right, that I point out those things in the scheme that I beUeve to be wrong, and which, unlesa they are modi fied, I cannot aupport by my vote. (Hear, hear.) It would be a breach of faith on the part of Upper Canada ia a few yeara after thia to say, " We want an increased repre sentation ; we want a larger amount for our local purpoaea," when with their eyea open, her repreaentativea accepted tUe document now before the House, and with a clear apprehenaion of what they were doing, made themselvea partiea to thia treaty. Why, Mr. Speaker, ia it that Lower Canada haa ao long reaisted the cry for an increased repre sentation to the weatern aection of the province? Simply becauao the treaty of 1840 granted to both sectiona equality on the floor of thia Houae. (Hear, hear.) I regret ex ceedingly that the Government intend to force thia meaaure upon the people without appealing to them on the queation, and knowing whether it meeta with their approval ornot. (Hear, hear.) Inthataame apeech of the Hon. Bliniater of Finance to which I have already made alluaion, one of hia strongeat points waa thia, that the Union Act of 1810 waa forced on the people of Lower Canada without their consent. (Hear.) Yet, BIr. Speaker, what do we find ? We find the intelligent and enterprising people of New- Brunawick have rejected thia measure, and that it is not favored either by the people of Prince Edward Island or Nova Scotia. We find, further, petitions coming in every day agaiust the mea.5ure from all parts of Lower Canada. (Hear, hear.) And yet, in the face of all thia oppoaition, the Govern ment preaume to force the meaaure upon the country. But then we are told that the rejection of the scheme by New Rrunawick, Nova Scotia, and Prince Edward Ialand will make no difference, although they were treated with here on equal terms. Prince Edward Island having the same vote in the Conference as Upper or Lower Cauada ; they assisted in framing these articles, and it was to conciliate them that all these concessions were made. We are told th?t this is a document of concessions ; but I declare that I have failed to see any concessions whatever that have been made to Upper Canada ; they were all made to the Maritime Provinces, I repeat that the delegates who met in Quebec as the representatives of provinces, and who had equal weight in the Con- ferenc with Canada, are now to be treated as if they were of no account ; that if the people of Canada, representing three-fourths of the whole population, decide upon it, it will be carried through. (Hear, hear.) Then we are told that the danger of war ia very imminent. I fail to see that. The Government brought in an Alien Bill, and a large majority in the House voteti for it, because they believed it necessary, at the time, to secure the peace of the country ; and in like manner they will be aupported by thia Houae in any meaaure which may be required for the purpose of adding to our security. But I ask, sir, if these resolutions were carried to-night, how much they would add to our peace and security ? What increased facilities of com munication would they give us with the Lower Provinces, until it was possible to build the Intercolonial Railway ? Very many years must necessarily elapse before that work could be completed ; meanwhile, the whole question of union could be discussed; objections oould be considered, and the people could be consulted. Thus, without hastily pressingon a measure which might eventuate in disappointment and misery, a sound and judicious measure might be devised, which would meet with the approval of the country, and whose principles might be perpetuated with the happiest results. Hon. Atty. Gen. CARTIER— That's a fact ! (Laughter.) Mr. JOHN MACDONALD— Perhaps I differ with many in regard to the subject of the Intercolonial RaUway. I am willing that the Intercolonial Railway should be built, and I am wiUing that it should be built at once. I wUl go farther than that, and say I am willing that this Parliament should grant as the share of this country an amount sufficient to justify scund commercial men in taking up that work, which I look upon in the Ught; of a great commercial undertaking. That is the idea that I hold 765 in regard to the Intercolonial Railway. We should then know how much the road would cost, and how much money we had to apend, and by placing it under the management of sound, judicious commercial men, the best possible guarantee would be afforded us of its being properly worked.(Hear, hear.) I do not, for my part, underrate tbe difficulties which beset the hon. gentlemen who now occupy the Treasury benches. However much others may be ready to charge hon. gentlemen with having lost confidence in them, I am free to admit that my confidence in hon. gentlemen with whom I have hitherto worked, is as strong as ever it was. But sir, no matter whether that confidence were strong or feeble, I must vote on this question as I conscien tiously believe it is my duty to vote. That course I have ever followed sinee I have had the honor of a aeat in this Houae, and that courae I intend to pursue so long as I conti nue in public life. Far be it from me to withhold from honorable gentlemen that full measure of cri^dit to which they are justly entitled. I believe that they were perfectly sincere in thus coming togetuer to endeavour to bring about a solution ofour constitutional difficultiea, and I hope they maybe succesful in their efforts in that direction. And if in the end they shall accomplish that great object — if they ahall succeed in banishing strife and discord from the floor of this House, and in bringing to our shores an increased mesure of commercial prosperity, no man will be more willing to acknowledge his error than I shall, and no one will be more ready to join in giving them that full measure ofa nation's gratitude to which under those circumstances they will be so fully and fairly entitled. (Cheers). Mr. McKELLAR— It is very late in the evening, and I do not intend to speak at any great len.'th. However, I think it is proper, in the interesta of a considerable portion of the people of Upper Canada, that I should call the attention of the House to this fact, that a few weeks ago a very large and influential meeting of the citizens of Toronto was held in that city, most of them, I believe, being the constituents of the honorable gentleman who has just addressed us, and to which meeting that honorable gentleman was invited for the purpose of discussing that very mea sure. He did not, however, think proper to attend ; but I myself was there ; and I think he has treated his constituents not with that courtesy and attention which they had a rit^ht to expect at his hands. (Hear, hear.) Why; sir, did he not attend that meeting, and throw ou it that flood of light which he has ¦ shed abroad amongst us this evening ? (Laughter.) Well, in the metropolis of Upper Canada, where many of the most influential m^n of that section of the province were asaembled, on a motion being made for what the honor' able gentleman now conten s, an appeal to the people — that this measure should be sub mitted to the popular vote before being dis posed of by this House — at a public meeting, I say, in the metropolis of Upper Canada, where there were hundreds of the leading men assembled, not a seconder could be found. (Hear, hear.) I say we must hold that hon orable gentleman responsible for not going to that meeting and enlightening his constituents upon thia very important subject. An Hon. BIEMBER— Did .you do so with your constituents ? Mr. McKELLAR — Yes, the qiiestion Was fully disouased by them. The honorable gen tleman who sits in the Upper Ilouse as the representative of the two counties of Essex and Kent was elected by acclamation. And why ? Because this CoaUtion had taken place, and this scheme of Federation was in progress, and that honorable gentleman came out, openly and above board, and declared in his speeches and in his address that he was prepared to do what he did the other day in the Upper House, vote for every paragraph of theae reaolutiona. (Hear, hear.) The hon orable memb, r for Toronto (Mr. John BIac donald), however, did not venture to go near hia consti luents, although they were aaaembled within aome two hundred yards of where he resides ; and in the face of that he comes here and tells us we must have an appeal to the people. If ever a subject was brought under the attention of this House, which met the almost unanimous approval of the people of the country, it is the scheme now under discussion. (Cheers and counter cheers.) We have been told that because the press of the country support the scheme nearly with out exception, the press has been subsidized, and yet, up to this moment, they have not been able io point to a single case in proof of their asserticn. It is paying the conductors of the press of Canada a very poor compliment to say that they could be bought, even were such a thing to be attempted. (Hear, hear.) The press of this country — the unbought press of the country — from one end to the other, are in favor of the scheme. We have 766 had, too, elections for thirty or forty consti tuencies in both sections since the soheme was brought forward. Hon. j. S. MACDONALD — Does the honorable gentleman speak of municipal elec tions ? Mr. McKELLAR— The honorable mem ber aUudes to those elections as being munici pal elections, but I spoke not of the little mu nicipality of Cornwall, and tbe hon. gentleman need not therefore be in any way alarmed. (Laughter.) Almost without exception, the elections which have since taken place have been in favor of this scheme of Federation. (Hear, hear.) It was my intention to have spoken at some length on the merits of this scheme. Dr. PARKER — Blove the adjournment. Hon. Attt. Gen. CARTIER— No, no, no. Mr. McKELLAR— I am quite willing to drop the sbbject in the meantime. I may state that if it is thought desirable to proceed to a vote without discuaaion, for my part — Hon. Attt. Gen. CARTIER — I muat beg tbe honorable gentleman to understand what is our poaition on thia subject. He stated just now that he had merely risen to answer some objectiona which were made by the honorable member for Toronto, and he appeara indisposed to speak this evening. — WeU, the honorable gentleman may speak at another time. It ia only half-past twelve, and we may very well ait till two — (oh, oh) — ao there ia plenty of time. And as we know very well that the honorable gentlemen be longing to the Oppoaition are desiroua of dia- ¦cussing this question at greater length, we are willing to liaten to what they have to say. Hon. j. S. BIACDONALD— I am willing to stand as much night work as any honor able member of tbis House, but it ia a little too much to aak ua to sit here -after twelve, night after night. At no time have I ever seen any aucceaa attending legialation after midnight. Mr. BIcKELLAR — I simply rose at the present time to point out the extraordinary conduct of the honorable member fur Toronto. I may or may not desire to trespaaa upon the attention of the Houae to-morrow. But if I do not then speak, it is because of the immi nent danger which I believe we are in, that the debate should be brought to a speedy -close. In caae I do not addreas the Houae again, I desire ,to take this opportunity of saying that I am entirely in favor of the reso lutions, and that I shall support them cor diaUy, and oppose any amendments which may be offered to them ; and, in taking that course, I am confident that I am doing that which will bo endorsed almost unanimously by my constituents, and which wUl commend itself to at least three-fourths of the people of Upper Canada. If I believed that this measure was opposed to the wishes of the people of Canada, I would be the last man to press for a vote upon it until it had been sub mitted to them; but believing, from the clear est evidence, that the scheme meets with the almoat unanimoua approval of the country, I think the sooner we bring it into operation the better. (Hear, hear.) Mr. JOHN BIACDONALD— I may per hapa be allowed to state in explanation that the good people of Kent are doubtless favored with a representative of much clearer views and sounder judgment than he who repre sents the unfortunate people of Toronto. But I would just say to that hon. gentleman, that if he will only look after the interests of his own constituents, I wiU try to look after the interests of mine. There is this difference between the hon. gentleman and myself, that wben the scheme was first announced, he took the whole thing down at once, whilst I thought it too weighty to be thus hastily dispoaed of, and required time for reflection. And the debatea which have taken place in thia House — the diversity of opinion amongst Miniaters themselves as to several pointa of tbe scheme — convince me that so far from its being understood by every man, woman and child in Upper Canada, as the hon. member for Kent stated, and as he would fain have us believe, it is far from being understood in the country.' I am persuaded that the course I took was right. I can only say that, if the honorable gentleman leaves this Houae with skirts as clean as I intend mine shall be when I retire from Parliament, he will have no cause to reproach himself for anything he has done during his political career. (Hear, hear.) Hon. BIr. HOWLAND— I desire to say a few words in reply to what fell from my honorable friend the member for Cornwall (Hon. J. S. Macdonald), so that no mis conception should exist on the part of the members of this House iu regard to the course I thought proper to pursue when I went before my constituents, after having accepted the office which I have now the honor to hold in the Govemment. From the honorable gentleman's remarks, I think it would be inferred that I had accepted office 767 subject to conditions, and had left it to be understood that amendments would be made to the scheme now before the House. At least such is my impression from what fell from my honorable friend. I feel ex tremely obliged to [the honorable gentleman for the kind manner in which he has spoken of me, and I can assure him in return tbat I value his opinion and friendship most highly ; at the same time, it is proper that I should say a word or two in reference to what he has stated, in order that no misconception may possibly exist on the subject. I placed before my constituents, fairly and fully, my views od this important question. I indicated to them that there were some parts of the scheme which, if I had been a delegate to the Con vention, I should have opposed and en deavored to modify. At the same time, I stated that we had to accept it as it was, it being in the nature of a treaty, or reject it. Hon. j. S. BIACDONALD— I am sure my honorable friend will not accuse me of a desire wilfully to misrepresent his position in reference to this matter. What I meant to say, if I did not say it, was this, that the scheme, as a whole, is not such as the Hon. Postmaster General desires — that he himself told his constituents that he enter tained objections to it ; and on that I argued that if the scheme was so bad as to be unsatis factory to the members of the Government themselves, it was not fair to deny to the Opposition, to whom it was still more dis tasteful, the opportunity of placing on record their objections to it. (Hear, hear.) BIr. geoffrion moved the adjourn ment of the debate. Hon. Attt. Gen. 'CARTIER moved in amendment that the debate be resumed at the next sitting of the House to-morrow, as the first Order of the Day after routine busi ness. Hon. BIr. HOLTON moved in amend ment : — That the debate be adjourned till Monday next, and that an humble Addresa be presented to His Excellency the Governor General, praying that he will cauae to be laid before thia House, in the meantime, all information submitted to the Con ference, aa well as any that may have since come into the poaaesaion of the Government, relating to the various important subjects referred to in the resolutions of the Conference ; and particularly all information reapecting the route and cost of the proposed Intercolonial Railway, the proposed distribution of the public property and liabilities among the aeveral govemmenta which are intend ed to replace the present Government of this Pro vince, the nature, extent and cost ofthe contem plated improvementa of our inland water com municationa, the righta of Canada in the North- West Territory, and the cost of opening np that territory for settlement, the amount required to be contributed by the provincea towards the pub lic defence, and the extent and value of the pub lic lands of Newfoundland, in order that this Houae may be better enabled to conaider the effect of the propoaed constitutional changes on the material interests and the future political condition of the country. The honorable gentleman said — BIr. Speak er, I shall simply say, with respect to this motion, that we are asked to adopt conclu sions come to by the Conference of delegates which met in Quebec in October last. It is only right and proper — it is only fair and reason able — -that we should be placed in posseasion of the data upon which these concluaions are founded. If we are a free British Parlia ment, worthy of our position as the represen tatives of British freemen, we wUl insist on being placed in possession of all the informa: tion upon which these reaolutions were found ed. I think there can be no reasonable answer to oppose to thia request, .ind I feel that I should be doing injustice to the House if I detained it for one moment longer with any argument upon the subject. (Hear, hear.) Mr. a. MACKENZIE— The time men tioned is too short. It would be necessary to adjourn the debate for two months at least, in order to get the information here sought. But there are serious omissiona in the reso lution. The honorable gentleman ought to have asked for the number of engines fl,nd cars proposed to be employed on the railway, and the amount of traffic which is expected to be carried backwards and forwards in the course of a year. (Laughter.) The while thing to my mind is ridiculous. (Hear, btar.) Hon. Atty. Gen. CARTIER— I am sur prised, sir, that the honorable member for Cha teauguay should have propoaed such a motion in amendment as this — a motion wbich has no affinity whatever to the question under con sideration. In my opinion things sbould be called by their right names, and I have not the leaat hesitation in saying that this motion, from the irrelevant matter it contains, is en tirely irregular — that it is, in fact, an absur dity. (Hear, hear.) Hon. Mr. DOBION — This is the only way in which we can make a motion for get ting information from the Government. The amendment proposes that the debate shall be adjourued untU Blonday next, for the purpose of affording an opportunity to the Government 768 to bring do-wn the information which they had before them during the Conference at which the resolutions in favor of Confedera tion were originated. It cannot be denied that when the Hon. Finance Minister and his colleagues agreed that $150,000 should be paid for the unoccupied landa in Newfoundland, they must have had aome information before them as to the value of those lands, and whelher they consisted of one acre or a million. There is no doubt that when they agreed upon what part of the public debt of Canada should form p-^rt of the debt of the Conlederation, they had a statement laid before them upon which that agreement was based. If I re collect aright, I saw in the newspapers a state ment that the Conference had adjoumed for a day or two in older to allow the Finance Ministera of the several provincea to make up and bring before the Conference a atate ment reapecting the debta and financial po sitions of the several provinces. Well, this is all we want to obtain. We want the same information that the honoiable gentlemen had before them when they agreed to those resolutions in conference. We do not sup pose that they went into the consideration of these matters without any information before thera. We do not auppoae that they merely guessed that the debt of Canada was $62, 500,000, and guesaed io the aarae way at the debts of the other provinces. We want the same opportunity of underatanding theae reaolutiona . nd of coraing to a correct de cision upon th rn, that the honorable gentle men themaelvea enjoyed. We do not want an hour's delay more than is absolutely necessary to bring down the inf rmation and enable us to apply it in judging of the meiita of the scheme. (Hear.j Honor able gentlemen say it will require montha to get thu iuformation. Th" honorable meraber for Lambton (BIr. A. Mackenzie) aeema to be very much afraid to have the information brought d' iwn, leat it would reault in the acheme not being carried. He ought to remeii.ber that we have not the confidence in the Hon orable Attorney General hast, nor yet in the Hooorable Finance Minister, that he haa. (Laughter.) He has known thoae gentlemen for a long time, and the Houae has bad fre quent opportunities, durmg past sessiona, of obaerving the amount of confidence he haa always reposed in thera. He had a wonderful amount of contidence in the Honorable Fin ance Miniater at tho cloae of last aeaaion, when be voted for the moiion reapecting the $100,- 000 handed over to the city of Montreal for the payment of a Grand Trunk railway Ua- bility. But he will pardon us and exercise a little patience with us if we, who have never had that confidence in the honorable member for Sherhrooke since he has been Finance Min iater, deaire to have a little information before we vote for the extravagant scheme wbich he haa brought before us. We want information mainly reapecting the financea, the Intercolo nial Railway, and the Crown landa of New foundland, and we have no other way of placing our demand in a shape to be recorded, aince the previoua question has been moved, than by moving for it in amendment to the motion for adjourni'ig the debate. Hon. BIr. GALT— The honorable gentle man is going into the merita of a resolution about whicb a point of order haa been raiaed. Hon. Mr. DORION — I was not aware that a point of order had been raised. What is the point of order? I understood the Hooorable Attorney General East to have been arguing against bringing down the in formation called for. Hon. Mr. CARTIER— No, no, not at all. The Speaker wUl decide whether the reaolution ia in order or not. The SPEAKER— It ia a weU underatood rule that no amendment to a motion for an adjournment can be propoaed, unless it relates to the time to which the adjournment is pro poaed to be made. The firat portion of the motion ia in order, or would be in order if it were separated from wbi^t followa, and pro poaed by itaelf ; but I cannot compel fhe hon orable mover of it to alter it. According to the beat of my judgment, the motion ia out of order. Hon. Mr. HOLTON— Then, Mr. Speak er, I deaire to have an opportunity of placing an appeal from the decision of the Chair on the resolution I have ofi'ered, upon the Jour nals of the Houae. The membera having been called in, the decision of the Honorable Speaker was sus tained on the following division : — YEAa.— Messrs. Alleyn, Ault, Beaubien, Belle rose, Biggav, Blanchet, Bowman, Bown, Brous seau, Brown, Carling, Atty. Gen. Cartier, Cart wright, Cauchon, Chapais, Cockburn, Cornellier, Cowan, Currier, De Bouoherville, De NivervUle, Dickson, Dufresne (Montcalm), Dunsford, Evan turel, Galt, Gaucher, Gaudet, Gihbs, ,Haultain, Higginson, Howland, Jones (Soulh Leeds), Lan gevin, LeBoutillier, Mackenzie (Lambton), Mac kenzie (North Oxford). Magill, McConkey. Mc- D.jugall, McGee, McKellar, Morris, Morrison, Pinsonneault, Poulin, Powell, Robitaille, Ross (Prince Edward), Scoble, Smith (Toronto East), 769 Stirton, Street, Sylvain, Thompaon, Walah, Wella, 'Willson, and 'Wiight'(Baat York).— 59. NAva. — Measieura Cameron (North Ontario), Coupal, Dorion (Drummond and Arthabaaka), Dorion (Hochelaga), Dufreane (Iberville), For tier, Geoffrion, Holton, Houde, Labreche-'Viger, Laframboise, Lajoie, Macdonald (Cornwall), O'Halloran, Paquet, Parker, Perrault, Eymal Scatcherd, and Thibaudeau. — 20. The queation being again put on Hon. Mr. Attorney General Cartier's motion, Hon. Mr. DORION said— Mr. Speaker, I hold in my hand an amendment which will exactly suit the ruling of the Chair, as it re lates only to the time to which the debate shall be adjourned. The very unfair and ar bitrary courae whicb the Government haa un fortunately seen fit to pursue, has prevented the honorable members of this House from moving any amendments to the scheme pro posed for its adoption ; but I for one am moat deairous, in accordance with the alraost univeraal wiah of the people of the diatrict of Montreal, to have the queation teated whether the opinion of the people ahall be allowed to be heard before a final decision ia come to by thia Houae. I find that in nineteen French- Canadian counties in that district, resolutions have been passed in favor of that course, and petitiona have been signed by from fifteen to twenty thousand inhabitanta, aaking that no such acheme be adopted without subrait ting it to a vote of the people. (Hear, hear.) Sir, I think it would have been far more dignified on tbe part of the Government, and more respectful towards the country, to have allowed the scheme — which, in their opinion, will create such prosperity that everybody will be in eeataciea over it, but which, in our opinion, will biing on this country auch a atate of diaaatiafaction as will perhapa , engender some other feeling than that of union with the Lower Provinces — to be voted upon by those who are most deeply interested in it, the people of Canada. But they have chosen to gag us, insomuch that we have no other course left but to move amend ments to the motion for adjourning the de bate, and that we are determined to avail our selves of. My motion in amendment is : — • That the debate on thia resolution, involving aa it does fundamental changea in the political inatitutiona and in the political relations of thia province, changes which were not in the contem plation of the people at the laat general election, ought, in the opinion ofthis Houae, to be adjourned for one month, or until such time as the people of this province shall have an opportunity of coa- 98 atitutionally pronouncing their opiniona thereon, by an appeal to them. I do not fix the time arbitrarily in which the appeal to the people ahall be made. If hon. gentlemen are anxioua to have the acheme carried at an early day, they can bring on an election at once, or they may take their own time. Let them dissolve the House to-mor row. We are ready for it at any time. The conduct of the Government in reference to the procedure of the House upoo the great question they submitted to it, is as disgrace ful as it is derogatory to the dignity of thia House. After coming to a solemn agree ment with the House that the discussion should go on as if in Committee of the Whole, and that consequently amendments might be moved, they now distrust the favor able feeling which they told us at the outset existed among tbe people, and now they will not allow us to place amendments to the scheme in the Speaker's hands. They fear to have the question diacuaaed and understood among the people. They are wiae in their generation. They have juat beheld the Hon. Mr. Tillet — for ten yeara past at the head of the Govemment of New Brunswick, and a most deservedly popular gentleman — though uniting with his own strength that of the leaders of the Opposition, swept away by the people. (Hear, hear.) WeU may they tremble for the fate of their scheme among the people of Canada. But they do not content themselves with simply refusing an appeal to the people. They go further and refuse tbe members of thia Houae the op portunity of placing their viewa before the House and oountry. We are ready to go to our constituents at once upon the question, and if they say that the scheme is a desira ble one, I for one am prepared to bow to the will of the majority. But, sir, to bow to a self-constituted delegation — an association of honorable gentlemen who were never authorised, either by the Par liament or people of this province, to meet together along with gentlemen from other provinces, and concoct a new Constitution for the govemment of the people, and then to come to this Houae and say to it, "You must accept this new Conatitution in all its details, making no change or amendment, nor even having the privilege of proposing any amend ments so as to have them placed on the Jour nals of this House " — I say the demand that we should bow in meek and humble submis sion to that sort of treatment at the hands of 770 the gentlemen on tbe Treasury benches, is most monstrous. (Hear, hear.) I cannot say that under other circumstancea, auch an appeal aa has just been made frora the decision of the Chair would have been taken, but in this instance there was no other course left to the minority to show that they had de manded most important inforraation in refer ence to the scheme under discussion. Whe ther it be until a direct appeal can be had to the people by a general election, or by petitions, I say the gravity of tbe question calls for de lay. Never haa auch extraordinary action been taken by any government, whether weak or atrong, aa haa been takeu by honorable gentlemen oppoaite. BIr. M. C. CAMERON— The Government having endeavored to checkmate the Opposi tion to their scheme in the tyrannical way in which thoy have done, I think it ia only fair to defeat their object and to atalemate thera, becauae in point of fact it will araount to that if we aucceed in thia motion. I think honor able gentlemen will adrait that in thia great and momentoua change which ia going to take place, the people who sent us here are as deeply interested aa we are. They aent ua here to make lawa under the Conatitution as established, not to overturn the Conatitution ; and before auch a violent change of Conatitu tion ia made aa wiU, undoubtedly, plunge ua into most aerioua expenaea, there ought to be given them an opportunity of aaying whether or not they concur in the change propoaed. It ia for thia reaaon I aecond the reaolution in amendment, and I hope we shaU have for it the support of thoae honorable gentlemen who, though aupportera of tbe Government, have expreaaed auch marked diaaent from the policy of abutting off amendmenta by mov ing the previoua queation. Hon. Attt. Gen. CARTIER aaid— With reference to thia motion, I have to r-iiae the same point of order that I brought againat the other one. I beg to aay at the out aet that the atateraent that there ia to be no other opportunity of bringing for ward a motion in favor of aubmitting the acheme to the people, ia all clap-trap. The honorable meraber for Peel has given a notice of a motion on that subject, aa a sub stantial propoaition on whioh every hon orable gentleman will have an opportunity of recording his vote in a regular way. [The honorable gentleman then went on to discusa the point of order, giving several reasons for considering it irregular. The dis cussion of the points raised was also taken part in by Hon. Messrs. Galt, Holton, Dorion, J. S. Macdonald, and Mr. Morris.] The speaker ruled the motion out of order. He said that the practice in such cases appeared to be for the Speaker to eliminate from such motions all that was irregular, ahd if fhe honorable member who prepared the motion consented to that, to put it to the House as it then stood. If the honorable member would not consent, why the motion fell to the ground. If tbe honor able member for Hochelaga would consent, therefore, to his eliminating from the motion all but tbat which referred to the adjourn ment, he (the Speaker) would put it to the House. If not, he would be obliged to rule it out of order. Hon. Mr. DORION having declined to allow his motion to be interfered with, it was accordingly ruled out of order, the amend ment of the Honorable Attorney General Cartier was agreed to, and the debate was adjourned until three o'clock the next day. Wednesdat, March 8, 1865. Mr. CHABIBERS said— The position of the speaker who comes towards the laat, in a debate is, if diaadvantageous in aome reapecta, at leaat advantageoua in othera. If from the ability of gentlemen who have preceded him, and from their logical and argument ative powera, moat that could have been said haa been aaid— if, from the ample store of knowledge they posseas, nuraerous ideas have been advanced, and logical conclusions drawn therefrom, there ia at least thia advan tage to their aucceaaora in the debate, that they have the benefit of thoae conclusions, the advantage of those ideas and of that knowledge. And although a subsequent speaker may be unable to advance new theories, or even adduce new arguments, he can at least compare the opinions and the views of those who have preceded him . I may state in the outset that 1 had hoped, at the commencement of this debate, to have heard It announced that this Legialature would be allowed the privilege of amending such of the reaolutiona aubmitted aa they might, upon earneatand careful examination, have deemed neceaaary. I had hoped, Blr. Speaker, that aome latitude would be allowed to this Legis lature in suggesting improvements and 771 amendments to the resolutions, which do appear to me to have been resolved upon with some degree of haste for matters fraught with such vital interest and importance to theso provinces. If indeed, sir, the hon. gentlemen who so receotly held their deli berations in this city had been composed of men perfect in intellect, and possessing intelligence unalloyed by the baser ingredient of ordinary humanity — liability to err, then it would, I say, have seemed more consistent to ask this or any other legislature to adopt the Constitution which they had framed for us and' for posterity without amendments, to aak ua to receive, as we would or as we do, the articles of our religious faith — to aak ua to have faith, and to believe that theae del egates had embodied in these resolutiona all the requiaitea and neceaaariea for a perfect Constitution. I had hoped, air, we ahould be able to apply ourselvea to the calm, delib erate, impartial conaideration of these impor tant resolutions, and, being divested of all party spirit, endeavor to arrive at such con clusions as would be advantageous to all the provinces. Put, sir, notwithstanding all this; however much it may have been desired, and whatever alterations we may have wished for ; whatever further benefits and advantages Upper Canada may have de=ired to secure in this great national co partnership; and although I should myaelf have preferred alterations in some of the resolutions, as well as in some of the details, yet I am not, after having listened patiently and anxiously to the able arguments in favor of Confederation, as well as against it — I am not, I repeat, prepared to state that I will take upon myself to say that Confederation, aa a acheme, should be rejected — that I will state that I shall vote againat the creation of a new nationality. (Hear, hear.) I will state some reasons why I am not prepared to do so. In the first place, when I look abroad and aee the neighboring American Republic engaged in one of the moa-o terrible and disa-trous wirs that has ever racked this continent; when I read in almost every journal issuing from the press of that country anathemas against the British Empire; when I see that press teeming with threats against thia country; when I know that that nation has by sea a navy prepared to cope with the strong powers of the old world, and a force on land, in point of numbers at least, aston ishing the generals of the most advanced of warlike nations — when, I say, I see that nation in a warlike, and not only in a war like, but in a threatening attitude towards us, I am led to consider, aa paramount to every other conaideration, what ought to be done for the aafety of thia oountry. To preserve its territory from invasion, to pro tect the lives and property of its subjects, is, I conceive, the fiiat iraportant duty to wards which the attention of every govern ment sbould be directed. (Hear.) Then, sir, upon the well-understood maxim that union is strength, I am inclined to believe that the union of the Britiah North Ameri can Provincea would give strength to us all. (Hear, hear.) I confess I fail to see a aource of weakneaa in thia union, as is very ingeniously argued by some hon. gentlemen opposed to this scheme in toto. It does appear to me that the very political and national status given to theae provincea by a union, would become immediately a source of strength ; that the very new name to be given to the new nationality would be an immense fortification of defence in itself. (Hear, hear.) When, sir, I consider the interest evinced by the people of England, the people of France, and, I may say, of all Europe, the very apprehension that seems to exiat with regard to thia Confederation of the British North American Provinces, it appeara to me that the very announcement of the creation of thia new nationality has given us already a position and a atrength which in the palmiest daya of the old rigime we might never have hoped for. (Hear, hear.) When I remember, sir, that great Conatitutiona in the old world bave been founded in the blood of contending nations; that in the Mother Country the heirs of contending houses, at times through various centuries, struggled for supremacy ; and that authority, power and good govern ment have been dstabUshed only after being wrenched from opposing factions by the sword — wh-n I remember, sir, that history records the revolution which terminated the long struggle between the sovereigns in England aud tbeir parliaments — how, from union, order and freedom, established only by the sword, sprung a prosperity hitherto unknown in the annals of human affairs; when I trace their hiatory from the days of feudalism down to the preaent, I am led to believe that if we have the opportunity of securing greatness, proaperity, and an eatab liahed and well-regulated freedom, compar ing favorably with all that ia enjoyed by the Brother Country, and without the coat of a single drop of blood, and, if the financial 772 statements are correot, with little losa, if any, of treaaure, we would not aet wiaely in letting pass the opportunity. (Hear, hear.) I think, on the first propoaition, that our defenaive poaition would be strengthened by this union. First, because were wc to remain as we at present stand, separate provinces, there would be greater temptation to the adjoining republio to acquire poaaea aion of our territory, believing, aa they undoubtedly would, that thia could be done with advantage and little coat to themaelvea; whereaa the magnitude of our national poaition, under the Confederation, would be t'ae meana, I am aatiafied, of deterring them frora auch an enterpriae And I am aatisfied, too, that the people of England would be more alive to our intereata, more willing to apend their livea and their treaaure in aaaiat ing in our defence, compoaing a atrong, united, new nationality on thia continent, than they would if we were to remain iaolated colonial dependenciea, (Hear, hear.) I believe the very intimation of thia Confed eration haa awakened the world to the great neaa, the vaatneaa of the reaourcea of thia country. (Hear, hear.) That theae views are shared in by eminent atatesmen in Eu rope ia alao a significant fact. Lord Hough ton, on seconding the Addreaa on the late Speech from the Throne, very emphatically declared, in regard to that portion in which alluaion ia made to Confederation, " that he was glad of thia movement, becauae he con- fesaed that he believed the future of the world reated not in iaolated municipalitiea, but in great empirea." And the Earl of Derbt, too, in hia remarka on that occaaion, alao aaid : — Under the circumstances, I view with the ut most satisfaction that most important step to which Her Majesty's Speech refers — the Confed eration of the Canadian Proviuces. I hope to see in that Coufederation of ihe Canadian Prov inces a determination to constitute themselves a power strong enough, with the aid of this country (which r am sure will never he withheld from them), to defend themselvea against all aggres sion. (Hear, hear.) Now, I aak, what would have been the conaequences if the political com bination that haa taken place, for purpoaea well underatood and declared, had not been made? We have seen the political party strifes that agitated this country ; we have seen^ the bitterness with which opposing parties contended for offiee ; we have seen the business of the country neglected, and its legislation brought to a stand-still, while parties assailed each other in our legislative halls on some personal, individual ground of malice; we have aeen Lower Canada refusing to Upper Canada her fair represent ation in Parliament; we have seen aec tional and religious difficulties and dissen sions growing more and more complioated, and portending strongly a dissolution of the union, because we of Upper Canada could not have much longer submitted to waive our fair and equitable right to be representsd according to our population upon the floor of this House. (Hear, hear.) Looking, then, at the matter from thia point of view, I deem the circumstances opportune that have opened a way for a solution of the difficulties that surrounded us, and at the aame time afford a wider and more extended and ample scope to the people for their defence, for their commercial, manufactur ing and mining interests, and for their social intercourse. Believing, then, that in respect to the solution of the political differences so recently existing, the Confederation of the provinces is exceedingly deairable; believ ing that in order to maintain an honorable exiatence, the union has become expedient, as affording a means of defence against aggresaion, I have, I think, at leaat two exceedingly atrong grounda upon which I may favor the acheme in a general point of ¦view. (Hear, hear.) Admitting that Con federation on general principles is a propo sition that admita of being atrongly enter tained ; that I feel convinced in my own mind that aomething requirea tobe done; that necessity demanda atrong and vigorous action on the part of the Government to relieve us from the difficulties into which political differencea have thrown ua, to guard and defend us agaiust difficultiea not only pohtical at home, but warlike abroad— I am, nevertheleaa, not one of thoae who are willing to acoept, without investigation and careful enquiry, a Constitution cut and manu factured without tbe measure of the people It IS proposed to fit having been taken. \''^n' ^^^^-'^ ^ '^'^'^"¦^ *^^* tlie garment of the Conatitution should be made to fit the P°°P'e and at their requeat. (Hear, hear.) it 1 had any apprehension that this acheme waa diaiaateful— waa not acquieaced in— waa not endoiaed by the people, I should be the aat man in thia Houae to endorae these reso lutions; and I should like every infcrmation afforded to this Hotiae that can be possibly given. I will not, however, pretend to die- 773 tate to, the Government of the day what amount of information they shall furnish and lay before us. I shall not charge them with dereliction of duty in not giving more information. I do not pretend to say that they should at this stage give further intimation of the line of policy proposed to be pursued and adopted by them with regard to the local governments. They, in their wisdom, no doubt, have laid down a course they deem judicious and advisable to pursue, and which may be so. But at the same time I reserve to myself the right to be satisfied or dissatisfied with the reasons given, and with the information laid before us, and I conceive no blame can be attached to the man from Upper Canada who is anxi oua to know, before he votes for Con federation, wbat the results will be to that section of the country. (Hear, hear.) Gentlemen will, I hope, take it in no wrong spirit when I say that upon others than themselvea — upon the young men of this House and this oountry — will fall the con sequences of thia scheme, if carried into \ effect, whether beneficial or disastroua ; and upon ua who now caat our votea in its favor will fall the reaponsibility, if, after its adop tion, the working of its machinery shall prove disastrous and injurious to Upper Canada. I maintain that the merit for the time being of framing a new nationality will attach to the few who have conceived and accomplished it; and they will no doubt be removed to places of honor, trust and emolu ment beyond the reach of the people, while we shall be left to see that the cog-wheels anil straps and appurtenances of this gigantic invention are made to adhere to their respec tive and destined positions. (Hear, hear.) And woe to us if a wheel becomes displaced, or a single accident happens in its future working. Is it then, sir, improper to desire to see the fullest programme before we enter upon the play ? Though fovorable to Con federation, we might be unwilling to swaUow some of Its indigestible ingredients, if any such it should, upon examination, be found to contain. (Hear, hear.) Now, upon exami nation ofthese resolutions, I find the first one contain I think nothing but that which would be acceptable and be gladly received by every truly loyal British subject — a Federal union under the Crown of Great Britain. No one has attempted to address this House but has given the fullest expression of his desire to see the connection witb' tlie Motlier Country maintained and preserved — to see the great arm of the British I'mpire, whioh we all so much eateera, reapect, and admire, strengthened. (Hear, hear. ) It has been argued here th£t the Britiah connection will be endangered by thia acherae, that growing in atrength, we shall by and by becorae in.le- pendent, throw off our allegiance, become coveted, and finally swallowed up by the neighboring republic. I believe the interest now exhibited in England in our welfare, in ourproaperity, in the formation of our new nationality — the affection ahown for us in the hearts of many Engliah atateamen, ex hibited in their declarationa of their belief in our loyalty, ia sincere. (Hear.) I cannot beUeve that as we grow great, proaparoua, and valuable, their interest in ua will grow less or be in the slightest degree diminiahed. The contrary is the reasonable deduction. If that nation has been in times paat so solicitous with regard to us ; if when poor, small, and unknown comparatively, she has sent her best blood and her richeat treaaures for our defence and support, it is unjust to her now and unreasonable to assume that she will ever, unleaa at our own requeat, aband on, neglect or forget ua. (Hear, hear.) The recoUectiona of our childhood and of the anxioua care extended toward us will be ever freah, I truat, in the mind and heart and memory of our Ialand Parent, and when maturity overtakes us, I am aure she will not forget the child she has so loved I trust not. I see no occasion for apprehension oo thia account in thia direction. (Hear, hear.) I aee, Mr. Speaker, embodied in thia aecond reaolu tion — if we are to have a union of tbe pro vincea — the only method which I think could be at all aatiafactory to the varioua aections It is alleged by some that a legis lative union would be deairable. For ray own part, I aee many difficulties that would inevitably arise out of a legislative union, which it appears to me would be insurmount able. I do uot believe that a general government would be as capable, even if it were aa willing — which I doubt if it would be — to deal with the local affaira of the differ- entsections as tbe local governments would be. I .believe a general government, charged with matters of common interest to the whole country, and local governments for the province-:, as proposed by this reaolu tion, is best adapted to secure efficiency. harinqny a,nd. periuaneacy in the working of 774 this union. The second resolution, too, opens up a mighty page on our historic future. It points a significant finger to the day when millions of inhabitaots shall people the verdant valley of the 'Saskatchewan , when railways and telegraphs ahall thread tho almoat boundleaa territory of the North- West, wbere the war-hoop ofthe savage alone is heard. It points to the vast commercial enterprises yet to be engaged in upon the Paiiific shores, to the rich gold fields of Columbia and the fertile shores of Vancou ver. (Hear, hear.) We riae, Mr. Speaker, in thia reaolution, from the aimplioity of small colonial dependenciea to a vaatneaa in extent of territory to whicii the little ialanda that compose the mighty Empire to which we belong are insignificant. We may look forward, even with hope and pride, without, I think, too great a stretch of imagination, to aome diatant day, when in the rocking of European thronea, perhaps, we ahall be able to aend out our fleeta and our armiea, gather ed from' the Atlantic to the Pacific, to afford aid and aaaiatance to that very Empire to which we now, in our weakness, appeal for support and strength and aid. (Applause.) Who will say that the conception of this scheme has not a grandeur about it com mending itself to the minda of thoae who rise superior to the cries of party strife — commending itself to the favorable consider ation of those who desire to move onward with gigantic strides to greatneaa, to wealth, to a more perfect civilization — to break out from the narrow grooves of prejudice, and 8elfiabness,and bigotry, and desire to take to the broad gauge of an enlightened and expansive policy ? (Hear, hear.j Resolu tions three, four and five I may pasa over. They all have for their tendency the planting of the roota of the Conatitution of thia new nationality in the firm aoil of the Britiah model; of coupling to the firm car of Britiah freedom thia new nationality, the wiadom, and expediency and policy of wbich courae ia not attempted to be denied by a aingle voice in thia House. I paaa to the conaideration of the eleventh reaolution, which haa been the aubject of much diacuaaion among the people outaide of thia Houae, and haa been referred to aa one very atrong ground for the rejection of the acheme. Thoae of the old Reform party wbo contended — and I am aure conacientioualy contended — for the elective principle in the Upper Houae, ever jealous as they have a right to be of those rights and privileges, for whieh they have long and ardently contended, see in this reaolution a retrograde rather than a pro- greaaive principle — a backward rather than a forward movement — inatead of a salutary reform, a return to the old-fogyism of the past, if I may be allowed the expression. (Hear, hear.) Well, sir, I in some mea sure agree with those who entertain these opinions. I would, for my own part, very much prefer to see the elective principle retained in the Legialative Council, and I very much deaire, if tbia scbeme is to be adopted at all, that in pursuance of the intimation given in the despatch of the 3rd Deceraber, 1864, from the Imperial Govern ment, acknowledging the despatch of this Government of the 7th of November, 1864, the provinces should enter again upon the consideration of the resolu tion respecting the appointment by the Crown of the members of the Legislative Council. Aa thia auggestion ia ooe that comes not from either of the provinces — ariaea from no sectional nor provincial preju dicea — -none of tbe provincea can well refuse to entertain it if they are really actuated by a desire to arrived at a form of Conatitutional Government baaed upon principles just to the several provinces, aa is declared to be their deaire in the very firat of theae reaolu tions. (Hear.) I will not, air, enter into further detaila upon thia aubject; I will not discuaa the advantages of an Intercolonial road, or ita diaadvantagea ; but I wUl aimply say, that in the hour of emergency, when our poaition is snob that we oannot, we muat not atand atill — when we are hurried along by tbe resistleaa power of eircumatances — when dangers threaten, on the one hand, and bright proapecta of greatneaa lie in imme diate unity of action on the other, we ahould not deacend to the penurioua poaition of being unwilling to apend a dollar to accom pliah a great and mighty project that will live in the memory of all future agea — of foumi- ing a nationality that will, it may be, exiat, aa the learned biatoiian quoted by my hon. friend from Quebec has said : " Wben some traveUer from New Zealand ahall atand upon a broken arch of London Bridge to sketch the ruins of St, Paula." (Hear.) I would not, sir, on the other hand, be willing to adopt a acheme which would, in a finan cial point of view, endanger the best interests of Upper Canada; but I am assured by the facts and figures intro- 775 duced by my honorable friends from South Oxford and from Sherhrooke, who, I am aure, do not wiah to be taken in in reapect to tbis scheme any more than I do, or than any other man from Upper Can ada — I am assured, I say, by them, that our financial position will be benefited by the Confederation. I have compared those facts and those figures, and I must confess I have confidence in their conclusions. (Hear, hear.) I have heard it urged, sir, that because sorae counties in New Bruns wick have rejected the men who have adopted Confederation as a policy, we onght therefore to abandon the scheme. WeU, sir, we are either bound in good faith to carry out the engagement entered info at Quebec or not, and I say with my friend the Honorable Attorney General West, we are bound in all conscience and honor, and in every principle of law or equity, to adhere to the agreement entered into. (Hear, hear.) The tu quoque argument is not a good defence to such a breach of good faith. What a sorry figure should we cut, sir, before the Imperial Government wilh this argument in our mouths ; — "The Provinces of New Brunswick, Nova Scotia and Prince Edward Island broke faith, violated their pledges, were untrue to their engagements, and we followed their example." I think, sir, auch a poaition would be pitiable, and would tend to lower ua in the eyea of the Imperial Government. (Hear, hear.) I maintain that the principle enunciated by my friend the Honorable Attomey General Weat is correct; we must adopt *hese reaolutiona, and we muat take them before the Iraperial Govemraent, in order to maintain the reapect of that Government, in order to maintain the reapect of the Empire, in order to maintain even our own self-respect. (Hear, hear.) When that is accomplished, our duty will be ended. If the Maritime Provincea will uot adhere to the arrangement, we ahall have done our duty, and shall have secured the good-wiU and respect of the Blether Country. (Hear, hear.) Before taking my seat, I will say, sir, with regard to the putting of the previous queation, I am sorry that has been done. I am one who is desirous of giving to every man, of every party, of every shade of political opinion, the moat extenaive scope for the expresaion of hia opinions, the fairest opportunity of giving them utterance and of recording his votes, so that they may appear upon the Journals, ready to be referred to, in order both to protect himself and to benefit othera. Thia, sir, is, however, a technicality ; and however much I may regret that the question has been put in that form, I cannot on that account reject the whole scheme of Confederation. (Hear, hear.) Mr. GEOFFRION said— Mr. Speaker, when I moved the adjournment laat night, it waa not my intention to offer to-day a general review ofthe acheme which ia under diacuaaion ; for I am of opinion that it has btsen sufficiently discussed to enable the country to judge of its merits and of its disadvantages. My intention was rather to confine myself to certain points in the plan whioh, in my opinion, have not been held up in a sufficiently salient point of view, and to make a few remarks on what has been said, both in this House and in the Legisla tive Council, in relation to the protection of the inatitutiona of Lower Canada. In the Upper Houae the Hon. the Prime Miniater (Hon. Sir Etienne Pascal Tach^), in his speech ofthe 3rd February last, said : — If we obtain a Federal union, it will be equivalent to a disunion of the provinces, and thereby Lower Canada will preaerve her autonomy, together with all the institutiona which are so dear to her, and over which she may exercise all the surveillance which ia neceasary to preserve them from danger. And the Hon. Solicitor General (Hon Mr. Langevin), after having explained, in hia way, the reaolutions reapecting marriage and divorce, expreaaed himself as followa, in hia speech of the 21at February laat : — Thia is an important point, and the French- Canadian membera ought to congratulate them selves on observing that their fellow-countrymen did uot fail in the performance of their duty ia relation to a question of such importance. It is needleaa to aay that on many other pointa aome of them will not admit that we performed our duty well ; but on the point iu question, there can be ao difference of opinion, for we have all a common rule, and, I repeat, they should be aatisfied that their co-religionista in the Con ference were not forgetful of their duty on that occaaion.It then behoves this honorable House, Mr. Speaker, to see that our national institu tions are really protected by the resolutions which are submitted to us. In order that this end may be fully attained, it ia neces sary to define the peculiar features of our position aa a people. I can say, with the utmost sincerity, that for mj part I have 776 never found any other points of difference between the English and the French-Cana dians who inhabit this country, but these arising from their religion, their language, and their laws; for we have the same attach ment that they have to the British Empire, and I am convinced that no hon. member of this House will express a contrary opinion. (Hear, hear.) This being admitted, Mr. Speaker, I beg to call the attention of the House to the twenty-ninth reaolution. It reada aa follows : — The General Parliament ahall have power to make laws for the peace, welfare aud good gov ernment of the Federated Provincea (saving the Sovereignty of England), and especially lawa respecting the following aubjecta : — • • • Then, after a long enumeration of subjects on which the General Government is to have power to legislate, we come to the 31st para graph, which relates to marriage and divorce. On the 2nd July, 1864, the Prime Minister, (Hon. Sir Etienne Pascal Tach^), in the course of an eloquent apeech delivered on the second reading of the Benning Divorce Bill, spoke aa followa in the Legialative Council : — I oppose the second reading of the bill, and I do so on the principle that divorce is antichristian and antinational. [And after having cited various passages from the Bible, he continued :] Divorce is immoral in its consequences, and, worse still, it destroys society by destroying the family. [And again : J I should be sorry to wound the feelings of any one, but we have to protect aociety m gen eral, and we have certain duties to discharge. For my part, I should he acting against my con science, my religion aud my country, if I did not oppose the bill. Death alone can dissolve mar riage — that is the teaching of the Apostles, and it is also the doctrine of all the Fathers and Councils. On the 9th July of the aafne year, the Hon- Solicitor General for Lower Canada, in hia speech delivered in thia Ho'ase on the aame subject, expreaaed himaelf aa followa : — If I oppose the bill now before the Houae, it ia not because I do not believe that the person petitioning for it haa just grounds of complaint, but because we are asked to do that which is dia metrically opposed to my principles in thia matter ; and because, moreover, I consider that the House has not the right to dissolve the marriage con tracted between the parties iutereated, and to permit them to marry again. Thia opinion of the Hon. Solicitor General for Lower Canada was supported by the whole of the French-Canadian and Catholic membera, who declared, on that occasion, by voting even against the first reading of the bill, that they were opposed to the principle of divorce ; and their opinion was concurred in and supported by the f^reater part of the newspapers in Lower Canada. The Canadien said, on that occasion : — The Divorce BiU waa, we regret to aay, read a firat time yeaterday evening. The diviaion was 61 votes against 42. There is, therefore, no hope of thia antiaocial meaaure being defeated. The duty of reflecting men, nevertheless, ia to warn aociety of the danger in which it ia placed; to proteat atrongly againat the deadly aaaault s made upon it. Measra. LiNGEViN, MoGee and Caetiek diacharged, yeaterday evening, that high and im portant duty, and, aa repreaentativea of Lower Canada aociety, they addressed in eloquent terms warnings to society in Upper Canada". The Courrier du Canada, with reference to the aame queation, said : — If any one aaya that the Church ia in error when, for varioua reaaona, she decides that a separation between married persons, in so far as regards the marriage bed or cohabitation, may take place for a definite or an indefinite period, let him be anathema. That ia the doctrine of the Catholic Church as to marriage, aud in thia instance, as in every other, it ia in accordance with the laws of nature, which themselvea repel divorce aa aome thing monatroua. The Journal de Quebec of the 9th June, 1864, aaya : — The queation of divorce recurs periodically to occupy the attention of the House and aflSict the consciences of Catholics. Divorce is the most powerful agent for effecting the dissolution of society, for marriage ia the aocial formula ; once you open the flood-gatea of divorce, no matter under what pretext, how are you to dam up the tide and prevent it from submerging the whole of aociety ? Now, Mr. Speaker, aa I said a moment ago, these were the opinions of all Frecch- Canadians, and, with reference to this ques tion, I cannot imagine anything to justify the change of opinion which has manifested itself amongst a certain number of Frenohr Canadian membera and our CathoUc miniaters If it be true that a Catholic cannot adopt the principle of divorce, and if we are in con science bound to oppose it in our capacity as legialatora, by voting againat every meaaure tending to aanction it, I aak how we can vote for a reaolution purporting to veat in the Fed eral Legialature the power of legialating on the aubject? The hon. member for Blontmo rency, in the courae of his speech in this House the day before yesterday, told us that if it had not been recorded in the resolutions 777 that the Federal Parliament would have the right of legialating on divorce, that power would have been exerciaed not only by the latter, but by the local legialaturea also. The 43rd resolution, article 15, tells us that property and civil righta, excepting thoae portions thereof aaaigned to the General Parliament, are to be left to the local gov emmenta. [t ia evident, therefore, that if it had not been stated in the resolutiions that the Federal Government waa to have tho right of legialating on marriage and divorce, that DOwer would have remained veated in the local legialaturea. Hon. bi'.. CAUCHON— And if that re aolution had not been inaerted in the scheme, what would have been the effect ? Mr. GEOFFRION— The inaertion of that clause places us precisely in the posi tion we ahould have occupied under a legia lative union. By one aection ofthat clauae, the Federal Legislature is vested with the power of legislating, not only on the question of marriage and divorce, but alao on the civil righta of the French-Canadiana. It can, whenever it chooaea, attack our civil laws. The hon. meraber for Montmorency admits that the 43rd clauae, and paragraph 15, aaaure tbe protection of our civil rights, and aays that if that portion of the reaolu tiona had not been inaerted, tbe local legiala turea would alone have had the right to deal with the matter. Mr. Speaker, a aingle glance at our civil code is aufficient to con vince any one of thia. Under article 74 of title 5, I find the following : — " Marriage ia dissolved solely by the natural death ol one of the parties; so long aa they both live, it ia indiaaoluble." If it be true that our French civil law declarea that marriage can not be diaaolved by any means whataoever, nor by any authority ; if the right of legialating on marriage and divorce had not been left to the General Legialature, no peraon could have obtained a divorce and leave to marry again. Hon. Sol. Gen. L ANGEVIN— What happena at the preaent moment ? Mr. GEOFFRION- Whathappens? It is true that the Legislature furnishes us with precedents, but every time that a divorce has been asked from the Legislature, the Catholic members have voted againat it. Aa the reaolutions atand, the Federal Legia lature may grant billa of divorce, thanka to the inaertion of this clause in tlie scheme. We are told that this haa been done in 99 order to remove a danger which already exiated in the local legislatures ; but a great error has been committed ; for, under the new system, any one can make application to the Genoral Legislature an d obtain a bill of divorce. And if that right had not been given to the Federal Legislature, it would have been im possible to obtain a divorce in Lower Canada, inasmuch as the majority in the Looal Legis lature will be French-Canadian and Catholic, and marriage and divorce would be under the control of that legislature. (Hear, hear.) The Hooorable Solicitor General Langevin aaid in hia apeech — and I fancied that he had much difficulty in explaining the article rela tive to divorce, that the Catholic members of the Conference were not opposed to that arti cle, and that, though tbey were opposed to tbe principle of divorce, he admitted that there were cases in which Catholics were al lowed to separate. I cannot help saying, Mr. Speaker, that this was a very poor argument for granting to the General Government the power of legislating in the matter of divorce. The same reaolution says that the Federal Government is to have the right of legislating on marriage, and the Honorable Solicitor General, in his speech, explains that article as follows^; — The word "marriage" has been, placed in the draft of the proposed Constitution to invest the Federal Legislature with the right of declaring what marriages shall -'e held and deemed to be valid throughout the whole extent of the Confed eracy, without, however, interfering in any par ticular with the doctrines or rites of the religious creeds to which the parties may belong. I muat acknowledge that tbe atatement is very skilfully made, and to persons who ac cept it without cloae examination, I admit that it is calculated to convey the idea that the Governraent hold that the Federal Legisla ture cannot decree that a civU marriage is obligatory, and that a marriage must be cele brated under the Catholic or the Protestant Church in order to be valid. But any one who closely examines that portion of the clause will easily see that it cannot possibly be in terpreted in any such sense, and that the exiatence of that clause in the Constitution will enable the Federal Government to enact that civil marriage alone shall be valid, so that children the issue of marriages contracted in the Church and not ratified by a civU magis trate, will be illegitimate. I maintain that the clause ia auaceptible of no other intrepretation, and I defy the Honorable Solicitor General for 778 Lower Canada (Hon. 'Mr. Langevin) to in terpret it correctly in any other aenae. (Hear, hear.) He haa really given ua a magnificent explanation of the clauae, but it seems to me that aa the House ia called upon to deal with written reaolutions, we must interpret them as they are laid before us ; the House cannot scrutinise the hidden intentions of the Gov ernment in the matter. If the resolutions have any other meaning than that expressed on the face of them, the House ia entitled to call upon the Government to explain and cor rect tbem. The motion now before the Houae ia aa foUowa : — That an humble Addresa be presented to Her Majesty, praying that She may be gracioualy fleaaed to cause a measure to be aubmitted to the mpeiial Parliament, for uniting the Coloniea ot Canada, Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, New foundland, and Prince Edward Island in one government, with provisions based on certain re aolutiona which were adopted at a Conference of Delegates from the aaid Coloniea, held at the city of Quebec, on the 10th October, 1864. I aaaert, then, that if we vote thia Addreaa, we cannot complain if the Imperial Government ahould declare that tbe Federal Legialature ahall have the right to legislate on all mat^ ters relating to marriage and aivorce. Hon. Mr. CAUCHON— Who is to draw up the Conatitution ? Mr. GEOFFRION-The Imperial Gov ernment. Hon. Mr. CAUCHON— Not at all. It will be drawn up here and submitted to the Imperial Government. Mr GEOFFRION — If I am not mis taken as to the meaning of the motion, the Address asks Her Blajeaty to cauae a meaa ure to be subraitted to the Imperial Parlia ment for the purpoae of uniting the Coloniea of Canada, Nova Scotia, New Brunawick, Newfoundland, and Prince Edward Ialand in one govemment, with proviaiona baaed on certain reaolutiona which were adopted at a Conference of delegatea from the aaid colon iea. Now, if the Imperiat Governraent ia to adopt the meaaure, thoy can do aa waa done in 1856, with reference to the Legialative CouncU, and we oannot complain if they ahould amend it in a senae diata?teful to ua, aince our reaolutiona declaie that the Local Government shall have the right to legialate on property and civil righta, except auch portiona thereof as ahall be veated in the Federal Government — and amongat the sub jects left to the latter are marriage and divorce. (Hear, hear.) I know the answer that will be made to me on this point. It wiU be said that it is through party spirit I am standing up to defend religion, and that I desire to lead this Honorable House tu believe that by voting for these resolutions we endanger our religious institutions. But it appears to me, Mr. Speaker, that for all of us Catholics, the indissolubility of marriage is an article of religion, and that if the reso lutions do not admit that doctrine of the Church, they oust be rejected by every on.; of us. But it wUl perhaps be asked — "How does it happen that our CathoUc clergy remain passive whilst one of the dogmas of our reUgion is thus being undermined ? " I deny, Mr. Speaker, that the Canadian clergy are in favor of the Blinisterial scbeme, and I am supported in this by the 1 act that the petitions sent here against the scheme were signed by several priests. Hon. Mr. CAUCHON— By how many ? Mr. GEOFFRION— Several of them have signed the petitions; I can fancy that some raembers of the clergy are in favor of the project, but I deny that the clergy in general profess the aame aentimenta. We have not received a single petition in favor of Confeder ation, and every day large numbera of them reach ua, praying for the abandonment of the acheme. Hon. Mr. CAUCHON— Do not drag the clers:y into the debate: we have not done ao. BIr. GEOFFRION— Yea, you have done it. The Honorable Attorney General for Lower Canada aaid in tbia Houae that the clergy were in favor of the acheme. Now, I main tain that a great many prieata are opposed to Cimfederation. (Hear, hear.) I find in the Canadien of this day a letter written by a member of the clergy, who expresses hiraself in the following terms on the subject of Con federation — Mr. ROBITAILLE— la the letter reaUy written by a priest ? BIr. GEOFFRION — If the honorable meraber haa any doubt on that point, he can aolve it by applying to the honorable member for the county of Quebec, who ia the proprie tor of the paper. Thia is what the reverend gentleman says:—" The clergy are not in favor of your Confederation as it is proposed ; a great many of thera, it is true, have faith in It, and truat in our public men, but a good many of them alao dread it, and would like to aee it amended." It ia quite easy for any one who takes the trouble to reflect on thit ;;i after 779 to understand that among the clergy, as among the people, there may be a great many persons who, having always had confidence in the Lower Canada Ministers, and having been accustomed to look upon them as the natui al protectors of religion and of our national in stitutions — are ready to accept the declarations and explanations made in this House by our Miniatera. Now, theae explanations simply stated that the legislation of the Federal Government would merely go the length of declaring the validity of marriages contracted in any one of the provinces of the Confeder ation when the parties entered Lower Can ada ; but it is evident tbat if they accept such explanations, those members of the clergy who bave always had confidence in the present Blinisters are not easily susceptible of alarm. But if we take the trouble of inter preting that clause of the resolution in its true sense, it must be admitted that the legis lation of the Federal Government on marriage and divorce may in many ways run counter to our sentiments aa Catholica, aince it may declare that marriage ia nothing more than a civil contract, and that religioua marriagea contracted either by Proteatants or Catholica, and not ratified by a magistrate, shall not be valid. Let us now see what wiU be the effect of these provisions as regards our laws. The Honorable Attorney General fpr Lower Can ada gave us a pompous eulogy of our civil code ; he went so far as to state that it was infinitely superior to the French code, and to any code he was acquainted with. We are told that our institutions and our civil laws will be fuUy protected, and that the Federal Legislature can only legislate on the laws of the other provinces, our civil laws being placed beyond its reach. If this provision relating to marriage and divorce be adopted, what will be the effect on our civil laws ? The Hon. Soli citor General for Lower Canada told us that the object of that resolution was to render valid throughout the Confederation a marriage con tracted in any one of the provinces. It seems to me very extraordinary, Mr. Speaker, that a gentleman in the position of the hon. mem ber for Dorchester, and wbo, in virtue of that position, may aspire to a seat on the bench, and who already enjoys precedence over the majority of the Bar of Lower Canada, should evince such deplorable ignorance of our civil law. In article 19, title 5 of tbe Civil Code, relative to marriage, I find the following : — "A marriage celebrated out of Lower Canada be tween two persons, either or both of whom are subject to its laws, is valid, if celebrated according to fhe formalities ofthe place of celebration, provided tbat the parties did not go there with the intention of evading the law." Thus, Mr. Speaker, since the marriage of a Lower Canadian contracted in another coun try in accordance with its laws, is valid in this country, the explanation and interpretation given by the Honorable the Solicitor Cleneral, ofthe clause relating to marriage and divorce, has no force whatsoever, and the clause may as well be struck outof the resolutions. (Hear, hear.) If I rightly understaml that clause, the legislature will have power to deal with a host of matters relating to marriage ; thus it may change that part of the civil code which defines the age at which a child may marry without the consent of parents ; it may alter the mode of contracting marriage, change the mutual rights and duties of married persons ; it will also have power to modify our civil code in the matter of our obUgations arising from marriage, in the matter of tutorship, paternal authority, &c., &c., in fact in a mul titude of its proviaiona. If that be the great protection aflbrded by the new Conatitutioif to our lawa, to our religioua and civil inatitutions, there is every reason to fear that tbey may one day receive a fatal blow. I will now call tho attention of the House, and particularly of the French-Canadian members, to the forty-sixth resolution, which relates to the uae of the French language in the Federal Legialature. It ia aa followa : — " The Engliah and French languagea may be uaed airaultaneoualy in the proceedinga of the Federal Legialature aa well aa in the Legialature of Lower Can ada, and alao in the Federal courta and in the courta . of Lower Canada." A close examination of thia reaolution ahewa at once that it doea not declare that the French language ia to be on the aame footing as the Engliah language in the Federal and Local Le gialaturea ; in place of the word " shall," which ought to have been inserted in the resolution, the word uaed ia " may," ao that if the Bri tish majority decide that the Votes and Pro ceedings and Bills of tbe House shaU be printed only in English, nothing can prevent the enactment taking effect. Of course we shall be allowed to use the French language in debate, but on the other hand, it is evi dent that the majority may, whenever they choose, enact that the bUla and proceedings of the House shall not be printed in French, and consequently the clause affords no aecur ity whatever to us French-Canadians. I take it for granted that as regards all the bills or resolutions of this House, the meaning to 780 be given to words is that given to them by the law of the country, and I am therefore justified, when explaining the resolutions be fore us, in holding to tbe very letter of their resolutions, and it needs no effort ofthe im agination to discover the intention of those who prepared them. The provincial statute 22 "V^ictoria, chap. 29, relative to the inter pretation of the atatutea, aaya : — " Whenever by any act it ia provided that a thing ahall be done, the obligation to do it is to be in ferred; but when it is said that a thing mtiy be done, the power of doing it is permissive." In the reaolutiona submitted ua, the word uaed in the EngUah veraion is "may," which is translated into French by the word " pour- ront," and it is said that the Engliah and French languages may be uaed aimultaneoualy in the proceedinga of the Federal Parliament as well aa in the Legialature of Lower Cana da, and alao in the Federal courts and the courta of Lower Canada. It ia eaay to see, then, that the uae of the French language ia rendered extremely precarioua, and that the majority may proacribe it in our Votes and Proceedings, and in our Legialature. The Low er Canada membera who have alwaya aupport ed the Miniatry ought to urge them to inaert a clauae in the reaolutiona declaring that the French language ahall be on the aame footing as the Engliah language ; the guarantee afford ed ua by the resolutiona, aa they now atand, amounta to nothing. I am not the firat to point out the danger to our inatitutions and our laws ; the Canadien of this city has enu merated them over and over again, and the honorable member for Montmorency himaelf, who quite recently admitted in tbia House that he waa the editor in chief of the Journal de Quebec, wrote aa followa in that paper on the 18th January, 1865. After having apoken of the paat conduct of the Upper Can adians, and more particularly of the Honor able Preaident of the Council (Hon. Mr. Brown), he aaya : — For 1 ower Canada there are other questions atill besides the question of money ; there are the religious, social and national questions. Here it ia that the greatest difficulties exist in the way of the success of the scheme, for a few slight changea in the letter of the scheme- — changea which will in no way affect the interesta of the other provinoes — will cause the project to he accepted by the immenae majority of the popu lation of the country. 'We do not hesitate to aay that it ia astounding that the Conference should have approximated ao closely K equity, after a few daya only of work, and in the midat of innumerable obataclea. It seems to me, Mr. Speaker, that if the honorable member for Montmorency was right in telling the Ministry that our nationality and our institutions were in dancer, and tbat changes were required, we Fiench-Canadian members are bound to see that the resolutions submitted to us afford sufficient protection to thoae inatitutiona, anH that fhe resolutions are not written in such a way as to be suscep tible i:f two interpretations. How haa the diacuaaion of the scheme of Confederation been conducted in Lower Canada ? In thia way: in the fit at place, all tbe Bliniaterial journala begged and prayed the people not to condemn the acheme before being made ac quainted with it ; they proclaimed stoutly that the Government must bs aUowed to elaborate its n easureg in peace, and then, when the acherae waa made public, the aame journala declared that certainly the scheme muat be amended in certain particulars be fore being adopted by the '.'.ountry, aud that they -u ould be the first to call for these changes, which, moreover, ctrald be obtained with out difficulty from the Administration ; if not, they would oppose the scheme as dangerous to Lower Canada. Even the Mercury made tbat statement. It was also said : " The Gov ernment will not make a Blinisterial question of the adoption of the scbeme as it is ; the project raay be discussed, and if it is found to involve anythina; dangenms for our re ligioua and national i::iatitutiona, that danger can be obviated by amending the reaolutiona." Blore than that, at the openina of the dia euasion of the s-heme, the Hon. Attorney General for Upper Canada himself declared in thia Houae that merabers mi. ht propose amendments, and that the House would dis pose of them. Now wbat have we seen since ? We have seen the same Hon. Blinis ter declare that the scheme must be accepted as it was, aud that the Government would not tolerate any amendment. Is auch con duct calculated to inspire confidence in tbe scheme, and in the Adminiatration who bring it forward ? I appeal to honorable membera from Lower Canada, and I aak them if they are prepared to ratify by their verdict the unjuatifiable courae adf^pted by the Govern ment, and whether it is not their duty to inaiat on the Government affording ua better aecurity for our religioua and national inati tutiona ' (Hear hear.j I trust that the Lower Canadi members wUl not ahirk their duty, and that they will inaiat on the Gov ernment declaring, in their resolutions, that all these thinga we hold so dear shall be pro- 781 tected from the attacks of our adversaries. Every danger of false interpretation ought to be removed from these resolutions. If, as it is stated, our language is to be fully protected under the new system, I do not see why it is not so stated clearly in the Constitution. The explanations of the Honorable Solicitor General for Lower Canada (Hon.' Mr. Lan gevin) are all very well, but they are not sufficient, and I should much prefer a written statement in the Constitution itself, formally setting forth that these matters shall not be affected by any legislation of tbe Federal Government. (Hear, hear.) I trust the English members of this House will not take offence at my insisting on more ample gua rantees for our religious and national institu tions, and tbat they will see that it is not through a spirit of hostUity to their institu tions, and that the same motives that induce them to demand more ample guarantees for their national minority in Lower Canada — guarantees which were claimed the other evening by the honorable member for "Mont^ real Centre (Hon. Mr. Rose) — make me ask for tbe same guarantees for my fellow-coun trymen. Hon. Sol. Gen. LANGEVIN— Will my honorable friend allow me to say a few words in explanation ? He said he hoped the Gov emment and members on this side ofthe House would adrait that his desire was to defend the religious and national interests of Lower Canada. The honorable member for Verchferes need not be uneasy on that point. For it muat alwaya be taken for granted — and every member on thia aide of tbe Houae will agree with me in thia — that every aentiment ex preaaed on the floor of thia Houae by honor able gentlemen opposite, relative to tbose ques tions touching our nationality and our re ligion, is frank and sincere, and we, therefore, feel that in expressing himself aa he has done, the honorable member for Vercheres is per fectly frank and sincere. However, I take th' liberty of answering him on two points. The flrat queation is that of marriage. The hon orable member did not quote the whole of that portion of my speech which relates to marriage ; he simply quoted the fiist part, but he ought to have given the second, which is as follows : — The fact is that the whole matter amounts to this— the Central Gpvernment may decide that any marriage contracted in Upper Canada or in any of the Confederated provincea, in accordance with the laws of the country in which it waa con-, tracted, although that law might be different from oura, ahould be deemed valid in Lower Canada, in case the parties should come to reaide therCi and vice versa. This was merely a development of what I said. I stated before that the interpretation I had given of the word " marriage" was that of the Government and of the Conference of Quebec, and that we wished the Constitu tion to be drafted in that sense. The honor able member for Vercbferes quoted that part of the draft of the civil code which states that one of the articles provides that a mar riage contracted in any country whatever,, ac cording to the laws of the country in which it shall have been contracted, sball be valid, and I he argues from that, that since it was declared by the civil code, there was no necessity for inserting it in the resolutions. But tbe hon orable member must be aware that tbat part of the code may be repealed at any time, and that if this occurred, parties married under the circumstances referred to would no longer enjoy the protection they now have and whioh we desire to secure for them under the Con stitution. I maintain, then, that it was abso lutely necessary to insert the word " mar riage " as it has been inaerted, in the reaolu tiona, and that it haa no other meaning than the meaning I attributed to it in the name of the Government and of the Conference. Thua the honorable meinber for Verohferea had no grounda for asserting that the Federal Legialature might change that part of the ci-vil code wbich determinea the age at which marriage can be contracted without the oonaent of parenta. Another point on which the honorable member for "Vercb^rea inaiated, no doubt with the view of obtaining in formation, which I ahall be delighted to afford if it ahould induce him to vote for the reaolutiona — and I am perfectly certain it ought to be auffioienfr-^ia the point as to the use of the French language under Con federation. The forty-sixth reaolution ia as foUows : — The English and French languagea may be uaed aimultaneoualy in the proceedings of the Federal Parliament aa well as in the the Legiala ture of Lower Canada and in the Federal courts and in the courta of Lower Canada. The honorable member for Verchorea aays — " It ia true that the French language may be used in tbe 'Federal Parliament .-md in the Legislature of Lower Canada, ns well as in the courts of justice of the Confederation, but the resolutions do not afflrin that that language may be used in the drafting of laws and in the Votes and Proceedings of the Federal and Local Legislatures," WeU 782 Mr. Speaker, I am quite sure the hon orable member for Vercheres wiU be de lighted to learn that it was perfectly well understood at the Conference of Quebec that the French language should not only be spoken in the courts of justice, in the Federal Parliament and in the Legislature of Lower Canada, but that, precisely as is now the case, the Votes and Proceedings of the Legislature, as well as all the Federal laws and those of the L egislature of Lower Can ada, should be printed in both languages. And what is still more, under Confederation the French language will be spoken before the Federal tribunals, an advantage wbich we do not possess at present when we apply to the Court of Appeala of Great Britain. So tbat tbe honorable mem ber for Verchorea and thia honorable Houae will gladly admit that ita repreaentativea at the Conference of Quebec did not fail in their duty on that point. Theae are the principlea upon which the new Conatitution will be baaed, and I feel juatified in going so far as to say that it was imposaible to secure more effectually thia eaaential privUege of our nationality, and at the same time our civil and religious institutiona. I was anxious to offer these explanations to the honorable mem ber for Vercb6res and to the House, and I trust they will completely satisfy the country. Mr. GEOFFRION— The honorable mem ber for Dorchester (Hon. Sol. Gen. Langevin) haa explained to ua that the intention of the merabera of the Conference of Quebec waa, not only that the French language sbould be used in the Federal Legislature and the Local Governraent of Lower Canada, as well as before the tribunals of the country, but that it was to be a right guaranteed to the French popu lation by the Constitution under Confedera tion. The honorable gentleman has also told us that the word "marriage" inserted in the resolutions does not signify anything else but what he explained to the House in his speech, and that we ought to be happy to see that the representatives of the French population at. the Conference had thus secured the safety ot their civil and religious institutions. For my part, Mr. Speaker, I must aay that I cannot bring myaelf, like the honorable mem ber, to aee the splendid protection he vaunta so highly. If the resolutions now before thia Houae have any meaning, that meaning ia only to be derived from the atrict letter of the reaolutions themselvea. It will alwaya be optional with the Britiah majority to avail themaelves of the letter of the Constitution, and they may at any time say to us : " You cannot have it, we oppose it, and the Consti tution doea not confer on you the righta you claim under it." And it will be the more eaay for them to do so from the fact that the resolution does not affirm that theae matters cannot be disturbed. If the Conference had any other intention than what appears in the resolutiona, the House should be made aware of it before being called upon to vote on these resolutions. For if the intention of the Con ference was aa stated by the Honorable Soli citor General for Lower Canada, and if that intention be carried into ett'ect, the House wiU run the risk of discovering that on all the otber reaolutions the intention is different from the letter, and will be in like manner carried out, for the resolutions must be inter preted as they stand, without reference to the intention of the members of the Confer ence. And for that reason I cannot help de claring that we French-Canadians would be guilty of an act of unpardonable imprudence in adopting a resolution wbich declares that the Federal Legialature ia to have the right of legislating on marriage and divorce, and which merely declares that the French lan guage wia^ be uaed in the Federal Legialature. We French-Canadian membera, I repeat it, ought to inaist that the word "shall" be sub stituted for the word " may" in the resolution relating to this matter, with reference to the publication of the proceedinga of the Legiala ture. If thia ia not done, and if we do not take every posaible precaution, sooner or later the English speaking majority in the Federal Legialature wiU unite againat ua on this pomt, and enact that the laws shaU be printed in the Engliah language only. And if we rest satis fied witb the underatanding referred to by the Honorable Solicitor General for Lower Can ada, we ahall be told when we exclaim against that injustice: "You should have obtained more full and complete guarantees, and you should have seen that the Constitution was made more explicit and more precise on this pomt." An we ahall have no anawer to make. We muat perforce be reaigned, and put up with all the reatriotiona the majority may impoae upon ua. I maintain, therefore. that It IS the duty of the French-Canadian membera of thia Houae to induce the (:iovern- ment to embody the underatanding arrived at amongat the membera of the Conference in the Conatitution, and to require that the guaranteea aaid to be afforded to us by the Constitution shall be more clearly expressed than they are in the resolutions. If we vote 783 these resolutions as they are, we shall vote ¦without knowing exactly the nature of the guarantees they afford us. ( Cheers.) Mr. RjfiiVlILLARD said— Mr. Speaker, the question of a Federal union of the British North American Provinces ia one of such importance, that at the present time it is engaging the attention, not only of this honorable Houae, but alao of the whole political world. I conaider, there fore, that it is the duty of thoae to whom it ia submitted to expreas, each in hia own way, the reasons which induce them to adopt or reject the union in question. When for the first time, in the year 1861, the county of Bellechasse did me the honor to send me here as its representative, I had not the slightest idea that I should be called upon, in the beginning of 1865, to take part in the discussion of such a measure, upon which, in my opinion, our whole future dependa. So rapid, however, ia the growth of eventa in thia age of progreaa of every kind, that there is no reaaon to be aurpriaed that we are to-day called upon to grapple with the aubject of the political poaition of our youthful country. I am prepared at once to acknowledge, Mr. Speaker, that that poaition haa not for several years past appeared to me to be an enviable one ; and in fact what has the political aspect been ? Within the precincts of this House we have looked upon scenes that are to be regretted and that were of frequent occurrence. We have looked upon bitter and incessant strife between our public men on the subject of certain sectional difficultiea, which ahould be aettled in a friendly way, if it ia our wiah at a later period to avoid aerioua troublea. We have aeen Blinistries succeed each other at intervals of hardly six montha — Miniatriea which were daily accused, and in many caaea with good reaaon, of having been guilty of acts of corruption in order to prolong their feeble existence. Without these precincts we have seen public journala filled with peraonal attacks and insults of every kind, general elections every year, carried, in many coun ties by means of fraud, and the fomenting of wretctied prejudices. (Hear, hear.) To such a degree had this been carried, that the people had come to consider it a highly me ritorious action to calumniate a member or a candidate, and to deprive him of that good character which he had,' in some cases, acquired by many and great sacrifices. (Hear, hear.) Honest men cau experience no feeling other than disgust at such a poli tical course, which is inimical to every feeling of patriotism, and is fraught with danger to our institutions. The Canadian people, by nature brave, intelligent and courageous, are called upon to play a more noble and a more worthy part than that. Upon our statesmen, let them belong to what party they may, it devolves to- provide them with a career which is suitable to them, without taking into consideration either prejudicea or opinions expressed at another period and under other circumstances. (Hear, hear.) We French- Canadians eapecially, if we are deairous of continuing to enjoy, in the midst of the various races who inhabit this vast continent of America, the institiitions which have been ao carefully preserved for ua, and which are more precioua to ua than life itaelf, require to aeek an alliance with the inhabitants of the other Britiah American Provinces, with which we have intereats in common, which will have, in case of invasion, the same enemies as ourselves to repulse, and which, like ourselvea, enjoy the advantage of living under the protection of Great Britain. At a time when we are, ao to speak, threatened by the United States, ought we to be so foolish as to disregard the advice which comes to us from Great Britain, without whom we could do nothing for our defence, and to pretend aerioualy that we can without danger overthrow the Federal union which we are diacuaaing, in the preparation of' whioh our atateamen them aelvea preacribed the conditiona whioh they considered to be most equitable and the beat calculated to preaerve the intereata which are most dear to aO ? Should we aet in this way, we should be forming a very incorrect estimate of our position in relation to England, and our formidable neighbours the United States. The diatinguiahed men who took part in the Conference held at Quebec in the month of October laat, unani- moualy declared that " the beat intereats and preaent and future proaperity of British North America wUl be promoted by a Fede ral union under the Crown of Great Britain, provided auch union can be effected oo prin ciples juat to the aeveral provincea." The most eminent men in England have repeated the aame thing, and have approved of the scheme of the Conference. I do not pro poae, Mr. Speaker, to diacuaa the aeveral ' articlea contained in the plan of union ; the honorable members who have preceded me 784 in this debate haVe, iu my opinion, said all that can be said on each of the articles. Moreover, the erudite and carefully-weighed papers on the subject which have been pub lished in this city in the Journal de Quihec and the Courrier du Canada have contri buted to diffusihg a knowledge of the scheme in no,- less 'degree than the numeroua speechJes which have been delivered in this HousOi I)espite the good opinion which I have of'some of the honorable members who have endeavored to prove to thia Houae aud to the country that the propoaed union would be more'diaaatrpus than advantageoua in ita reaults to the several provincea affected by it, I muat acknowledge that their argumenta have not convinced me — I will even say did not appear to me to be convincing, (Hear, hear.) The hon. member for Lotbiniere for exaiiple, in whom, as he is aware, I have confidence, and from whom I greatly re gret to differ in opinion on a measure of such importance, is opposed to any alteration in our present Conatitution. He finda that everything haa been for the beat. The following ia what he aaid in hia eloquent speech : — Let ua not be dazzled hy the ambition of be coming, all at once, a great people. The United States are a great people, but what people, how ever amall ic may be, is there which now enviea their greatneaa ? Let us be aatisfied with our lot; few people have a better. I agree with my honorable friend to a certain extent. Like him, I do not envy tbe lot of the United Statea, but I diaagree with bim aa to the meana to be taken to protect us dgainat t.ur adveraariea, even againat tbe United Statea, and to preaerve our nation ality. The honorable member, to prove that the union propoaed would be an evil, quoted to ua the following extract from Lord Brougham's work on Political Philosophy : The Federal union, by keeping up a line of aeparation between ita membera, givea the freeat acope to these pernicious prejudices, feelinga which it is the highest duty of all -governments to eradicate, becauae they lead directly to .confuaion and war. I may miatake, but it appeara to me tbat this extract from Lord Brougham's work is not so much oppoaed to a Federal union, aueh aa that which is proposed to us, aa it is to the existing aituation of the French- Canadiana, In faot there ia a atrong line of demarcation in thia province between the inhabitanta of Upper Canada and those of Lower Canada; it is that very line of demarcation which haa given riae to the sectional difficulties which our statesmen have undertaken to settle in a friendly way. The leaders of the Opposition themselves undertook , to settle these difficulties in a manner much less advantageous to Lower Canada. If then the opinion of Lord Brougham is to be an authority in this case, it would bo the duty of the Govem ment of thia province to remove the line of demarcation to which I have alluded as ex iating between the inhabitants of Upper Canada and those of Lower Canada. Thia, I am aatisfied, is not what my honorable friend desirea. (Hear, hear.) When apeak ing of the seven United Provinces (now Holland and Belgium), the hon. member for Lotbiniere read the following extract from the first volurae of Lord Macaulat's His tory of England : — The union of Utrecht, rudely formed amidst the agoniea of a revolution, for the purpoae of meeting immediate exigenciea, had never been deliberately reviaed and perfected in a time of tranquillity. Every one of the aeven coram on- wealtha which that union had bound together retained almoat all the righta of aovereignty, and aaaerted thoae righta punctilioualy again.it the Central Government. Thia ia all that the honorable member quoted from Lord BIacaulat. Aa may be seen, Mr. Speaker, tbia author ia not oppoaed to a Federal union ; he aimply points out the defecta of the union of Utrecht. Thatunion had been rudely formed, in the midat of a revolution, for the purpoae of meeting imme diate exigenciea. But our plan of union waa weighed with deliberation, in a time of tranquillity, and thia tranquillity is certainly the result of tbe formation of the present Coalition Government. Therefore, the author who haa been quoted merely demonatratea one thing, and that is, that we should be wrong to await the convulsions of a revolu tion, or of an invasion, in order to discuss the bases of a Federal union. (Hear, hear.) The honorable member for Lotbiniere gave us to understand that the moat certain method of obtaining the friendahip of the Maritime Provinces, and of aecuring their aympathy and zeal in caae of attack, was, so to apeak, to have nothing in common with those provinoes. I believe, on the contrary, that Lower Canada would gain by causing heraelf to be better known, and by causing the spirit of juatice and of liberality which prevails among her inhabitants and her institutions, as they at present exist, to be 785 better known. Does not the best under standing exist between the people of different origins in all classes of society ? We every day perceive with pleasure, and I am happy to say it, that Lower Canada has risen greatly in the estimation of hon. members from Upper Canada, since it has been their lot to reside in our midst, and to see for themselves what our institutions are, and what we are our selves. (Hear.) I hope that my honorable friend the member for Lotbiniere will forgive me if I take the liberty bf discussing, for a few seconds longer, certain portions of his speech ; but I am very anxious to convince him that I listened to him with great atten tion, and that if he did not succeed in con vincing me, it was from no fault of mine. To set us on our guard against the proposed union, the hon. member laid before us a hasty sketch of the history of Ancient Greece, in order to shew us the hatred which the Athenians bore to the Spartans. No doubt he fears that that hatred, should the union be consummated, will manifest itself between the inhabitants of Lower Canada and the inhabitants of Newfoundland and Prince Edward Island. He also took us a long journey through various countries, in which ho pointed out to us frequent insurrections, echauffouries and troubles of all kinds among people living under a syatem of Federal union, and therefrom he drew the concluaion that Federal uniona are bad and pernicious. But did the honorable member shew us that the political condition of those nations, pre vioua to their Federative union, was analogoua to ours? Did he shew us that the basia of those Federal unions was similar to the basis of that which we propose to establish ? Did those unions cause thoae nationa to paas from a atate of prosperity, tranquillity, and happineas, to the state in which they have been held up to our view ? Were they situ ated as we are ? Had they the aame procli vities, the same tastes, and the same antece dents as we have ? Did they, as we do, trace their descent from the two wisest, the two greatest nations in the world ? Lastly, had they, as we have, the Crown of England to protect them ? No ! they were not possessed of any of the advantages of which we are possessed, and no comparison between the two cases was possible. (Hear hear.) Besides, Mr. Speaker, is it not suffi cient to cast a glance at the history of all countries, to perceive that everywh'ere, under all possible institutions, there have arisen, not 100 only ichauffourles, but even frequent wars and sanguinary revolutions, characterized by the greatest horrors? Have not the institutions of England and France been consecrated in rivers of blood ? All these arguments and reasonings adduced by the honorable member for Lotbiniere are there fore not applicable to the question which is submitted to us, and are not of a nature to change ,the opinions of those who are in favor of a Federal union of all the British North American Provinces. (Hear, hear.) I now return to certain objections offered by other honorable members of the Opposition to the present scheme of the Government. Thus, they spoke to us of divorce, and tried to show us that great inconvenience would result from leaving to the Federal Parlia ment the right of legislating on that subject. But they do not remark that by this means the members from Lower Canada, that is to say, in the Local Legislature, will be exon erated from taking those questions into consideration. At the present day, all the Catholic members from Lower Canada are opposed to divorce as a matter of expediency and of conscience, and yet, even in the existing Legislature, they cannot prevent it. Why, therefore, blame the Government for not having prevented in the Federal Parlia ment that whioh they cannot even prevent here ? Hon. Mr. LAFRAMBOISE— They could prevent divorces in Lower Canada. BIr. re bull ARD— Has it ever been very easy to impose in Lower Canada laws upon the Engliah inhabitants of that pro vince, and to prevent them from obtaining what they consider as a right ? No ; it would have been an act of injustice to endeavor to force our opinions on this subject on the English and Protestant popidation of Lower Canada ; and if an attempt had been made to do so. Confederation would probably have failed, because the majority of the members of the Conference would have main tained their claims, and this would have been sufficient to prevent Confederation. (Hear, hear.) It is not to be urged as a crime against the Government that they have permitted the Federal Legislature to have the power of legislating upon subjects upon which we ourselves may legislate. For my part, BIr. Speaker, I did not enter upon this question in order to judge the scheme of Confetlera- tion. I have sufficient confidence in the clergy to admit that on this question they 786 are the best judges, and it is they who ought to decide whether there is danger ornot; and there can be no doubt but tbat tbe bishops and the clergy have consulted to gether respecting this article, and that they came to the conclusion that it is an evil which there are no means of preventing. The honorable member for Vercheres (Mr. Geoffrion) maintained that it was neces sary to state clearly in the resolutions what were the intentions of the members of tbe Conference in relation to marriage and divorce, in order that the Imperial Government may not impose upon ua a Constitution otber than that for which we ask. Now, I have more confidence thau he has in the word of our public men, and in the sense of juatice ofthe Imperial Government. Our public men having raade a comproraiae, and aaked a Conatitution for the Britiah North American Provincea, which ia to do away with the difficultiea which exist in the province, are we for a aingle instant to believe that when thia scheme, which is fraraed to reestablish that peace, harmony and concord of which we stand in need, is carried to England that a clause will be inserted wbich would raise the Lower-Canadians like one man ? In such a case we should see petitions pour into the House headed with the aignatures of the principal membera of the clergy, exclaiming againat auch injuatice; in auch a caae we should see real petitions against this attack upon our religious rights. If our institutions should be so menaced, the Lower Canadian people would do themselves justice, if it waa refused to them, and we should no longer enjoy that peace which now prevails in Canada between populations of different origins and belief, in consequence of the absence of disquietude among the people — (hear, hear) — I have confidence enough in the clergy and biahopa of Lower Canada to believe that if that clause, on which so much stress is laid, was of a nature to do any inj ry to our religious interests, they would loudly exclaim against it and have justice done us. Our biahopa are not in the habit of atanding in fear of the civil authoritiea, when their duty calla them to defend the intereata whicii are entruated to them. (Hear, hear.) It is stated also that the clergy are not in favor of the scheme of (Confederation, because two or three of its members have written in newspapers and Iiave signed petitions opposed to the scherae. But is that a manifestation of the opinion of the clergy? No; for. they do not write in the name of tbe clergy, but simply in their individual capacity as citizens ; for they sign their writings under their title as citizens. Certain members of the clergy may differ widely in opinion from the remainder of their brethren ; as citizens they may believe that the scheme of Confederation is a bad one, but those who hold that opinion are certainly a minority, just as in the House it is the minority of the membera who are opposed to Confederation. (Hear, hear.) Blention is alao made of the use of the French language ; it is said that it cannot be used in the Federal ParUament. But, for my part, I am of opinion that if the acheme is adopted, the French knguage will be more uaed and will be held in higher eatimation in the Federal Parliament, than it haa been in this Legislature for some years. It is feared that the laws, the doeumenta and the proceedinga of the Federal Parliament are not to be printed in the French language. But what doea the 46th clauae of the reaolutiona say ? It saya : — Both the Engliah aud French languagea may be employed in the General Parliament, and in its proceedings, and in the Local Legislature of Lower Canada, and also in the Federal courts, and in the courta of Lower Canada. Thua, if the uae of the French language can be excluded, so alao may the use of the Engliah language be excluded, for both are on an equal footing. Because it is not stated that tho laws and the proceedings of the Federal Parliament shall be printed in tbe French language, the conclusion is drawn that they will be so in Eng'.iah ; but the aame thing might be aaid of the Engliah language, aa it ia not stated that they will be printed in that language. The hon. member for Vercheres (BIr. Geoffrion) would have something more; instead ofthe resolutions setting forth that the French language may be used, he would have them declare that it shall "be used ; in that case the members from Lower Canada might be compelled to apeak French ; but are the Upper Canadian membera also to be forced to apeak that language, they who do not underatand a word of it ? I ahould be with the bon. member for V^erch^res if we could compel Lower Canadian members to apeak French, and Upper Canadian members to speak English, as in that case each would learn the language of the other. I am really of opinion that if the Hon. Attorney General 787 for Lower Canada had never spoken anything but French in this House, the membera from Upper Canada would have learned that language in order to understand him ; but as he wiahea to make them underatand him without putting them to ' that trouble, he most frequently speaks English. (Hear, hear.) It is said that in the resolutions the guarantees which we seek to have for our language, our lawa and our institutions are not clearly enough expressed, and that the Imperial Governraent might, consequent ly, confer upon us something other than that for which we ask. But could not fhe Im perial Government impoae Confederation upon us as it did the union ? And as it does not do so, but is merely desirous of being consulted, we ought not to believe that it will irapose upon us conditions which are opposed to our interests. Hon. Mr. LAFRAMBOISE— It is pro posed to impose it on the Lower Provinces, who do not wish for it. Mr. re .MILLARD— Certain hon. mem bera conaider our present position an excellent one, and say tbey do not wish it altered. But that is not the opinion of the greater number, and nearly all the hon. membera of the Oppoaition have declared that changes are indiapenajble and neceasary. The hon. member for Hochelaga haa acknowledged it, and bas expresaed hia opinion on the aubject. When I waa asupporter of thoBlACDONALD- Dorion Adminiatration, I underatood that the membera of that Government were of opinion that changea were neceaaary, and that we could not very long remain in our preaent poaition. The hon. member for Hochelaga has admitted that the opinion of Upper Canada must be respected, and that to it would have to be granted representation baaed on population ; and the influence of Upper Canada made itaelf felt by the Mac- DONALD-aJorion Adminiatration ; it made itaelf felt especially when, just before the last general elections, it bee .me necessary to oust the Honorable Mr. Sicotte from the Miniatry to satisfy Upper Canada. By meana of Mr. SicoTTE, elections had been secured aufficiently advantageous in their results to overthrow the Cartier-Maodon- ALD Administration, to whioh I was opposed, because I did not wish to aee a c.alition between tbe parties, and because I conaid ered that that Government had made too Iree a uae of the public money. But I foresaw that sooner or later I should return to the Conservative party, from which I had de tached myself in consequence of the extra vagant conduct of two or three of its leaders, and in consequence I was thou elected with out the assistance of any party. Alone 'I strove with the Conservative party in my county. I was faithful to the friends with whom I went at the time, and I do not regret that I went with them ; so long as they stood in need of me, I supported them in order that they might avail themselves of circumstances to bring about a change in the financial affairs of the country. I would not change my party then, but matters and cir cumstances having changed, I consulted my friends in the county which I represent, and I was then able to go with the men whom I consider able to protect and preserve our institutions and the interests of the country in general. For this reason I am prepared to acoept the scheme of Confedera tion prepared by them, for I have more con fidence, as regards the preservation of our rights and our institutions, in the men who are now in power than in those with whom I formerly worked. (Hear, hear.) I can not do otherwise than declare it. It is not my wish to insult anyone; I merely state the reasons which have decided me to go with them; and as I find that it is always necessary to be in favor of one party or the other in this House, that is to say, for that one which is considered to be the best, I do not hesitate to state my opinion and to declare myself in favor of the Conservative party. (Hear, hear.) It was my intention to reply to the speech of the hon. member for Richelieu (BIr. Perrault), but I per ceive that my ideas do not flow rapidly, and moreover, I do not wish longer to tatigue the House. SEVERAL VOICES— Go on I go on ! Mr REMILLARD— Well, I listened with pain to the language used by the hon, member for Richelieu. Should what he said in French be repeated by some one in English, 1 should greatly fear that it would give rise to prejudice against us among the English memtera. (Hear, hear.) Last y ar he said to the members from Upper Canada,-^" The French-Canadians are learn ing the uae of arms, and if you inaiat u| on having repreaentation baaed upon population, they will be turned against you ;" and this year he says that one Lower Canadian can stand against ten Upper Canadians. He considers himself fortunate in being under 788 the protection of the Engliah flag, and yet hia whole apeech was one insult to the English Government. (Hear, hear.) Does he forget, then, that the French-Canadians are in a minority ? He talked a great deal about the great men who saved our nation ality ; but if those men had made use of such language aa the hon. member has done, they would not have obtained that which they did obtain. (Hear, hear.) Our nationality would long aince have paaaed away ; for, I repeat it, hia whole speech was one insult to England and Engliahmen. Fortunately his apeech was not understood by the English members of this Houae, and conaequently it could produce no effect upon thera ; and thoae who did underatand hira, moreover, are aware that he apoke for himaelf alone, and that he doea not re present the opiniona of the Lower Canadian members or of the Lower Canadian people. I am therefore convinced that they will bear no ill-will to the French-Canadians in conae quence of that speech. (Hear, hear.) It has been said that the scheme of Confedera tion would entail the imposition of enormous taxes, and that we ahould bave to provide for the defence of the country. And yet moat of the hon. membera who oppoae this scheme acknowledge that the defence of the country muat be provided for, or at least that we must contribute our share to it. Uuder the present regime, the Government has the right of presenting a bill respecting the militia or the defences, and the members may accept it or may reject it if they con sider it too burdensome for us ; and will the case be different in the Federal Parliament ? We shall lose nothing, under Confederation, in respect of defence, for we shall have allies who will asaiat ua in economising and in preventing the adoption of any measure which would be beyond the strength of the country, for the people of the other prov inces are no fonder of taxation than are those of Lower Canada. It is perfectly well known that any change in our position would be only to our advantage, under Confedera tion, in relation to defence ; for if the United States should attack the English provincea, they would attack all the provincea together; they would probably begin by attacking Canada, becauae they think more of Canada than of the Lower Provincea. In caae of difficultiea ariaing between England and the United States, the burthen of war would fall upon us, for we should be first attacked. It is, therefore, our interest to be able to receive aid from the Blaritime Provinces, and to be able to convey the reinforcements which they would send us, and which Eng land would send us, by railway. As regards defence, I am of opinion that Lower Canada would be found to occupy the most advan^ tageous position in the Confederacy, being situated in the centre of all the provinces. (Hear, hear.") In a material point of view, we could not but grow and advance. The annexationists of the district of Montreal only are afraid of Confederation. Indeed, all the commercial transactions of the dis trict of Montreal are with the United States. But if we are not desirous of being annexed to the United States, and if we are desiroua of preserving the institutions whioh are so dear to us, I maintain that we must con struct a Confederacy which shall be compe tent to protect us from the United States. If we will do nothing to show England tbat we are disposed to improve our position in relation to the defence of the British North American Provinces, we expose ourselves to aee England withdraw her forces and aban don us, because she cannot, unaided, carry on the strife with tbe United Statea. With our help, she would be certain of victory. (Hear, hear.) We ought, therefore, to build up a Constitution which will establish such relations between all the provinces as shall make of them a single state and a aingle people, who wUl unite in caae of war. We may change our Conatitution without altei- ing our inatitutions, and I maintain that the more monarchical our government ia, the aafer will our inatitutiona be, for in thoae inatitutions the monarchical principle espe cially predominates. It ia in conaequence of our having alwaya been at peace that those institutions have grown and prospered. If England should alsandon her colonies, the United States would take possesaion of us, and we should soon disappear, for the Ame rican Constitution ia not sufficient to protect our institutiona. The citizens of the United States would show but little respect for thoae inatitutiona, aud the law would not be powerful enough to prevent the massea from spreading themselves in our midst, and from depriving- us of what we hold most dear. (Hear, hear.) In conclusion, I aay that I unite with pleaaure with tbe men who are now propoaing a scheme which I consider to be of a nature to preserve our inatitutions, our language, our laws and our 789 religion, with that great party which pos sesses the confidence of a large majority of the inhabitants of this country. (Cheers.) Dr. PAQUET —Mr. Speaker, although I am not in the habit of addressing the House, and although the question now under consideration has already been discussed at great length, I cannot allow so important an occasion to pass without making known the reasons which induce me to protest against the constitutional changes which are now pro posed, and wbich tend to nothing less than the complete overthrowing of the Constitu tion under which we have been governed since the union of Upper and Lower Canada. Since the prorogation of Parliament in June last, I have endeavored in vain to explain to myself the advantages which we. Lower Can- atiians, would derive from Confederation, and I had lost myself in the motives and the ob ject of a union of this kind, when I had the opportunity of reading in the speech of the honorable member for Sherbrooke that " the scheme of Confederation had not been a new question since the days of Lord Durham, that only the question of carrying it into ef fect was wanting." After having read this significant passage, I set myself to work to study and ascertaic what were the tendencies and spirit which actuated Lord Durham, and more especially, what object he had in view. I did not take long to convince myself, as any Lower Canadian member may do on reading his celebrated report, that everything he had in view was calculated to secure our annihilation as French-Canadians, and that he desired neither more nor less than to sub ject us to a ruling power exclusively English. When we see, BIr. Speaker, the hon. mem bers from Upper Canada rejoicing over such a scheme, and declaring themselves so much the more satisfied from the fact that they would obtain, by this fine stroke of policy, more than they had at first hoped for, when the honorable meraber for Lambton (Mr. A. Mackenzie), whilst avowing, as he has al ways done, that his views are but incomplete ly expreaaed in the language which I am about to read, there is reason for some little alarm. This is what that honorable gentleman said in the House the other night : — I believe then, sir, in the first place, that Con federation is desirable ; in the second, that it is attainable; and in the third place, that it is the best thing we can get, and this last is perhaps the strongest reaaon of all for accepting it. It ia quite clear that we must have a settlement ofour difhculties in some way, and I think the scheme proposed ia a very favorable settlement of them. I think it ia more than, perhaps, some of ua ex pected, at the time when the present Government waa formed, to bring about a settlement, and I do think, air, it would he the greatest act ofmad- nesa that western members of thia Houae oould perpetrate, to vote against it. (Hear, hear.) I am not, however, afraid that it will he voted againat by them. I believe that under it we have obtained representation hy population, that we have obtained what we have long contended was justly due to us, that we have obtained our legi timate influence in framing the financial policy of the country, and that beyond this we have ob tained the prospect of building up a great British union on this continent. We should therefore, I think, in view of theae great advantages, overlook those objections which may be regarded as ante cedent to the scheme, and endeavor heartily to carry out the work successfully. I shall willingly yield my support to the acheme, and I believe it will he acceptable to the people I repreaent — not only to the people of the locality, but to those who aurround me in Upper Canada. If, Mr. Speaker, honorable gentlemen from Upper Canada are permitted to give utter ance to auch opiniona as these, I hope that my fellow-countrymen from Lower Canada will permit me to vindicate their rights. (Hear, hear.) But let ua proceed to examine this Confederation, to which the practical question is alone wanting. I read from the report of Lord Durham : — I entertain no doubts as to tbe national char acter which must be given to Lower Canada ; it must be that of the British Empire ; that of the majority of the population of British America ; that of the great race whieh must, in the lapse of no long period of time, be predominant over the whole North American continent. Without effecting the change so rapidly or roughly aa to ahock the feelings and trample on the welfare of the exiating generation, it must henceforth be the first and steady purpose of the British Govern ment to eatabliah an English population, with English laws aud language, in thia province, and to trust its government to none hut a decidedly English legislature. A little further on in the same report, I read as follows : — If the population of Upper Cauada ia rightly estimated at 400,000, the English inhabitants of Lower Canada at 150,000 and the French at 450,000, the union of the two provincea will not only give a clear English majority, but one which would be increased every year by the influence of English emigration ; and I have no doubt that the French, when once placed, by the legitimate course of eventa and the working of natural causea, in a minority, would abandon their vain hopea of nationality. (Hear, hear.) 790 Hon. Mr. CAUCHON— He was in error. That all related to the Union Act and to nothing else. Mr. PAQUET — Yes; it had reference to the beginning of the end. (Hear, hear.) A little further on I read as follows : — A general Legialative union would elevate and gratify the hopea of ahle and aspiring men. They would no longer look with envy and wonder at the great arena of the bordering Federation, but see the means of satisfying every legitimate ambition in the high officea of the judicature and executive government of their own union. Again I find the foUowing passage : — But even in the administration of justice, an union would immediately supply a remedy for one of the most serious wanta under which the provinces labor, by facilitating the formation of a general appellate tribunal for all the North American colonies. And again : — The completion of any satisfactory commu nication between Halifax and Quebec would, ill fact, produce relations between these proviu ces that would render a general union absolutely necessary. Several surveys have proved that a railroad would be perfectly practicable the whole way.And thus we come to the Intercolonial Rail way ; and it is easy to perceive that Lord Durham, from the beginning to the end of his report, preaches in favor of the very Con federation whioh we are about to have im posed upon us. Even before Lord Durham, Judge Sewell, in 1814, bad expreaaed opin iona nearly similar to those of the noble lord, and in 1839 tbe whole of the present plan of Confederation was traced out. Tbe honorable member for Montmorency pretends that Lord Durham was mistaken ; but for my part I find, in addition to the other causes of reproach whicb have been accumulated against the members of the Conference, we may urge thia, that they did not give Lord Durham credit for tbe work he had already done, and that they did not endorse upon the acheme of Confederation now laid before ua the words " True copy of the acheme of Lord Durham as set forth in his report to the Britiah Gov ernment." (Hear, hear.) French-Canadian nationality has been talked about. Lord Durham apeaka of it in hia report in the following terms : " The error of Lower Can ada conaiata eapecially in that vain attempt to preserve a French-Canadian nationality in tbe midat of Anglo-American statea and coloniea.-' When ia the impoaition of a new nationality apoken of, if not at the time when it is sought to snatch from a people that which it already poaaeaaea ? There will be opposition, I trust ; for otherwiae, Mr. Speaker, I cannot com prehend the logic of honorable members who emphatically declare that they will stand by it at any riak. I am well aware that the na tionality of a people cannot be changed by a mere act of the Legialature ; but why should obataclea be placed in our path, why should we submit to tbe yoke of the oppressor, when there is no legitimate ground fbr imposing it upon us ? Another reason which gives me good ground for hoping that the work of destruction will not be accompliahed in a hurry, as desired by the honorable members of the Adminiatration, is that it is a difficult matter to ostracise a people whioh numbers more than a million. The example of Bel gium auffioet' to prove it to us, and alao that of Greece, which, after three centuriea of ty ranny and oppreaaion, atood up manfuUy and exclaimed, " We are atill Greeka." I am confident, then, that following their example, in defiance of all the conatitutiona that may be framed for ua, and of all the vexations to which we may have to aubmit, we alao shall come out triumphant from our triala, exclaim ing, "Weare still French-Canadians." (Hear, hear.) The honorable members of the Gov ernment, and especially thoae from Lower Canada, ought not to forget, either in our interest or in their own, that a generation which detaches itaelf from the generationa whioh preceded it runs the riak of being repu diated by the generations which come after ; that aocial exiatence ia not concentrated in a aingle period, that it influencea the future. Theae honorable geutiemen would do well to reflect on thia before impoaing upon ua the practical queation of Lord Durham. Paaaing now, BIr. Speaker, to the financial queation, I regret that I cannot agree in the viewa expressed by the honorable member for Dor- cheater (the Honorable Solicitor General for Lower Canada), who clairaa to have expreaaed an official opinion on thia head. Although he hiia affirmed that he drew them from authentic sourcea, the reaulta which he has obtained from hia calculationa differ from those which I have obtained, founded upon the figurea which he has made uae of to eatablish his proposition. He baa declared that we ahall have a surplus of $200,000. Mr. ERIC DORION— And he added tbat we should be in a position to lend the amount. 791 Mr. PAQUET— I shall now aubmit to this honorable House a statement of the expen diture which will be incurred by the Government of Lower Canada : — Administration of justice $364,YS5 Deducting the salaries of the judges . . 5i»,000 $314,785 Education 254^000 Scientific inatitutiona 5,900 Hoapitala and charitiea 1 24,949 Board of Arta and Manufacturea 3,5o0 Agriculture 50,000 Repairs and public huiltiings. 15,000 Colonization and roads 113,000 Timber- cullers 35,000 Office and other contingencies 77^000 Public works , 30,000 Slides ;i5.000 Surveys 30,000 Court houses and gaols 10,500 Rent of site of Parliament house ' 4,444 Legislation 200,000 Executive Government 100,000 Public departments 100,000 Public lands 37,000 Publication of the laws 20,000 Electiona 15,000 River police 30,000 Unforeaeen expenditure 10,000 Interest on the Federal deht, share of Lower Canada 300,000 Total expenditure , .$1,885,078 Local revenue eatimated at about. . . . 1,400,000 Deficit $485,078 Theae figurea are taken from the Public Accounta for laat year. Subtracting from that sum the estimated amount of the revenue of the Local Government, instead of a surplus there will be a deficit of $485,088; and I ask you, Mr. Speaker, how are we to meet it otherwiae than by direct taxation, or by diminiahing the public appropriationa, which are by no means exceaaive now ? (Hear, hear.) If we do notadopt the latter alternative,! there will ] remain, I say, no other means than direct taxation. The Hon. Minister of Finance, moreover, told us so expreaaly, in theae words : — The Federal Legislature will have power to impoae any ayatem of dutiea which they may think proper to meet the expenses of its admin iatration, whilat the local legialaturaa will he obliged to have recourse to direct taxation for the aame purpose, if their revenues prove in sufficient.For my part, Mr. Speaker, I affirm that the country ia not ready to aubmit to auch a atate of things, and in this matter, as also upon tbe scheme itself, I am quite certain that I express the opinion of my county. (Hear, hear.) A third point, which I would humbly submit for the consideration of the House, is the expediency of pressing for the adoption of tbis measure before an ap peal haa been had to the people. I believe and I hope that the House will have too much reapect for itaelf and for the people to vote at once upon the reaolutiona now aub mitted to ua. If, however, pubUc opinion is not to be regarded, I flatter myaelf that at all events precedenta will not be treated with contempt. We find in the History of (Janada, by Christie, that in 1823, when a propoaition was made in the Lower Canadian Parliament to effect changes in the Con atitution, the following deciaion waa come to by 'the Government of Lower Canada, and the paragraph I am about to read formed part of the Speech from the Throne : — I am commanded to inform you that His Majesty's Ministera proposed to Parliament cer tain alterationa in the act thirty-first George the Third, ^chapter thirty-one, principally with a view to unite into one the two legislaturea of Upper aud Lower Canada ; but the measure was with drawn and postponed to the next session, in order to afford an opportunity ot ascertaining the sen timents of the people of those provinces upon it. (Hear, hear). In the aame hiatory we find another example, which will, I believe, strongly aupport me in the poaition I have taken : — In 1839 Lord John RuaaELL gave notice in the Hous ¦ of Commons, on the 3rd June, of certain resolutions which he intended to submit relating to the projected union of the Canadaa. He waa, however, induced, ou the auggeation of Sir Robert Peel, to waive them, and at once to introduce hia bill for the purpoae. Jn doing which he atated it to be hia intention to carry it only through a second reading, in order that it might undergo discussion, hut that having re ceived a atrong proteat, on the part of Upper Canada, againat the intended union, he did not deem it advisable to legislate that session finally on the subject. Here we have another fact which provea that iu England, in 1839, the meaaure waa opposed at its second reading, and that a year was given to the Canadian people to reflect upon the merita of the proposed union of the two Canadaa. (Hear, hear.) I trust then, Mr. Speaker, that what waa done in 1839 will again be done in relatiqn to the. 792 project of Confederation. For these reasons I am of opinion that the Government ought not, in the firat place, to humiliate ua by taking from us the privileges to which we are entitled, then ruin us by a scheme which muat triple the expenditure, and laatly, fail in the respect whioh they owe to the people, by refusing to consult them before changing the Constitution. If I am not greatly mis taken, the party which is aeeking theae con stitutional changea is the very party which calls itself Conaervative, who obtained their electiona to preaerve and guard the Conati tution, and which has always opposed us because, it exclaimed, we were the allies of the hon. member for South Oxford (Hon. Mr. Brown), to whom, said they, we wereready to concede representation by population, tbe powerful lever which was to endanger all our civil and religioua inatitutiona. Well, what do theae hon. gentlemen do to-day ? Inatead of preaerving the Conatitution, they ehange it and indeed destroy it, by granting to Upper Canada preponderance in ths repre aentation. I prove thia by citing the fol lowing extract from the apeech of tho Hon. Minister of Finance (Hon. Mr. Galt) : — Now it became necessary to introduce into the constitution of the Lower House the principle of representation proportioned to population ; for without that, Upjer Canada, who has so long demanded this reform, would never have consent ed to enter into the Confederation. If Upper Canada would never have consent ed to enter into the Confederation without repreaentation by population, then ahe haa obtained it, aa ahe haa conaented to enter the Confederation; and why say that tbat measure has not been conceded ? In conclusion, I affirm that the proposed Confederation ofthe provinces is only a Legialative union in dia guiae, and I will cite the language made uae of a abort tirae ago by a man well known tbroughout the country for hia talenta and his eloquence, at a meeting, held in the city of Blontreal, to condemn the Bliniaterial scheme, tbat the preaent Confederation ia but tbe chrjaalia of a Legialative union, and that the butterfly would not be long in making ita appearance. (Cheers.) BIr. O'HALLORAN— Before proceeding, BIr. Speaker, to offer a few observations on the resolutions in your hands, I may say that if 1 had any hesitation in pronouncing on the merits of this scherae, I might have taken a preliminary exception to the jurisdic tion of tbis House to pass this measure. You, sir, and I were sent here to make laws, not legislatures. (Hear, hear.) We were sent here to work out the Constitution of this country — not to undermine and destroy it. There is not an elector from Gasp6 to Sarnia, however humble he may be, who has not just as much right to pronounce upon this qucE- tion as you and I have. Therefore, if it were my wish to shirk this question, which it is not, I could justify myself by saying it was no part of my mandate, or of the compact between me and those who sent me here. When we aaaume the power to deal with thia queation, to change the whole system of Gov ernment, to effect a revolution, peaceful though it be, without reference to the will of the people of this country, we arrogate to ourselves a right never conferred upon us, and our act is a usurpation. But I rise not for the purpose of discussing this scheme in detail, as it has already been discussed so fully — and I cannot possibly say much which may not already in substance have been said, and much better said than I could expect to say it — but I rise to record my protest against the usurpation which this House, in my humble opinion, is guilty of in undertaking to pass this measure, or, so far as in its power lies, to impose upon the people of this country a Constitution con trary to their wishes — a Constitution which they will never have an opportunity of seeing, until they are called upon to submit to it and obey it. I rise to protest also against this parliamentary gag by which the at tempt is made to suppress free discusaion in this House, and to compel it to adopt against its will, or against its reason and judgment, a measure with which, perhaps, a very large number of the honorable membera of thia Houae have no real sympathy. It ia no anawer to me to say that I may expreaa my viewa_ freely— that I may fully diacuss this queation. It is no answer to say tbat I have the privilege of pointing out the defects of this measure, if I am denied the privilege of obtaining the sense of this Houae, and of pu^ ting on record what I may consider ita objectionable featurea — if I am denied the right of submitting to the House subatantive motiona and reaolutions, which might perhaps meet the sense of the majority of this House, and which at all events would afford to the people of tbis country the opportunity of knowing the views of the honorable members of ^ this House upon posaible amendmenta which might be proposed to this measure. At an early period of this session, I gave notice lys of substantive resolutions .which, however lit tle they might have met the sense of the ma jority of this House, express the views of a large m'ajority of my constituents. It would interest them to see how far those views met the approbation of the representa tives of the people here ; it would interest them to know how far honorable gentlemen from Upper Canada are prepared to go to in sure to the English speaking, minority of Lower Canada those rights and liberties which they claim for themselves ; it would afford us some criterion by which we might measure the degree of protection we should find in the Federal Parliament, from possible oppreaaion in our Local Parliament. For if honorable gentlemen from Upper Canada, on the floor of thia Houae, will not hear ua to day, if they manifeat an indifference to tbe injuatice about to be inflicted upon the Eng liah apeaking inhabitanta of Lower Canada by the propoaed Conatitution, wbat guarantee have we that similar selfishness may not mark their conduct after we- shall be powerless to rebuke it ? I will read those resolutions which I h-ad designed to propose, for the purpose of obtaining the opinion of the House on a modification of this measure, whioh, if it must be adopted, might possibly have been so amended as to remove many serious objec tions now entertained to it by a large portion of the people of Lower Canada. They are in these words : — Resolved, That assuming the Federal syatem of government to be a political necessity in a union of the British North American provinces, any Confederation of those provinces which ig nores the difference of race, language and reli gion of the inhabitants of the respective states or territories sought to be thua united, and is not framed with a view to secure to the inhabitants of each such state or territory the management of their own local affairs, in accordance with their own peculiar views and aentimenta, ia un wise and inexpedient, and not conducive to good government, or to the peace and tranquillity of those for whom it ia framed. This resolution I put forth simply for the sake of shewing the idea which I had in my mind, without, I am free to confess, any expectation tbat tbe particular modification which I was about to propose would meet the senae of the majority of this House, but as giving an indication of the direction in which the Bngiish-speaking inhabitants of ' Lower Canada would consider that their interests might be best preserved. The second reso lution I designed to propose is as foUows : — Resolved, That with a view to secure to that 101 portion of the inhabitanta of Lower Canada apeak ing the Engliah language, the free exercise and enjoyment of their own ideas, inatitutiona and rights, in any proposed Confederation of the pro vinces, Cauada should be divided into three civil diviaiona, to wit : Western, Central, aud Eaatern Canada. Why ia it that objection ia made to a legisla tive union ? The reason why so large a por tion of tbe people of Lower Canada of French origin will not consent to a legislative union, is the very reason that makes it desirable to the English speaking population of Lower Canada. We are in favor of a legislative union. We desire that Canada ahould be a united people, ignoring sectionalism, and bas ing our institutions rfpon one broad principle of Canadian nationality, which ahall blend all racea, and in time obliterate all accidental diatinctiona of language, religion, or origin. Our French-Canadian fellow-aubjecta will not conaent to thia. If they wiU not hear our argumenta, let them liaten to tbeir own. If Federaliam is necessary for the protection of their rights, it is necessary in a tenfold degree for the protection of tbe rights of the English speaking minority. Tbey tell us we may rely upon their well-known liberality and toleration. We cannot consent to hold our liberties by mere sufferance, when we are entitled to hold them by right. It would be unworthy of us to submit to such humiliation. In these remarks which are forced from me, and which I am compelled to make in defence of the rights and liberties of those who sent me here, I mean no disrespect to those of another origin — to the French-Canadian honorable gentle men whom I see around me. (Hear, hear.) In many respects I sympathise with them, and have always sympathised with them. I desire to live among my French-Canadian fellow-subjects in peace. I desire to maintain those amicable relations which have always subsisted between the English-speaking and the French-Canadian populations of Lower Canada. As I said before, I sympathise with my French-Canadian fellow-subjects in many respects. I respect their character, I admire their laws. But this antagonism ia not courted by me. It ia forced upon me. Let me call the attention of honorable gentlemen, more eapecially of those from Upper Canada, to the poaition in which this propoaed Conatitu tion now before the House would place the English-speaking people of Lower Canada. I may say at the outset, that although they number only one-fourth of the population, they possess at least one-third of the property, 794 and pay one-half of the taxes. The French- Canadian differs very materially in many respects frora the Englishman, or the Anglo- Saxon. He ia raore siraple in hia habits, more frugal in hia mode of life, and leaa dia poaed to novelty. He is content to ride in a carriage of the aa- I.e faahion aa that of hia grand father. He ia wed'led to hia institutions, his old euatoma, and old lawa. It ia different with the Engliah-apejkmg people. They are, aa a people, raore extravagant, more eager for novelty, and in many other reapecta widely different from the French-Canadians in their tastes and habita. Of courae a compariaon would be invidious, and I do not deaire to inatitute one. But I am not at liberty to ignore the facta. Let ua see how, under thia propoaed Conatitution, the English-speak ing people would be placed in reference to their peculiar interests and their peculiar ideaa. In the firat place, I would desire to direct your attention to the llth resolution, by which it ia provided how, eapecially after the local govemmenta are eatabliahed, the Le gialative Council of the General Government ia to be conatituted — by ita members being appointed by the Federal Government on the noraination of the respective local govern ments. We must bear in mind that in this Local Legialature which will be imposed on Lower Canada, the Engliah clement will not certainly be more than one-fifth in number. Under theae circumatancea, and under the peculiar proviaiona with reference to the powera granted to the local governments, by which the legialative councillora are to be appointed by the General Government on the recommen dation of the looal govemmenta, and in the caae of Lower Canada, when its Local Govern ment will be four-fifths French-Canauian and only one-fifth of English origin, think you how inany EngUsh members from Lower Ca nada would ever find their way to the Legis lative Council ? How would it be possible, when the Legislative Council is to be ap pointed on the recommendation of the Looal Government, and that Local Government four-fifths French-Canadian, for the Engliah element to obtain fair repreaentation in the Legialative Council ? When, I aay, would an Engliah-apeaking inhabitant of Lower Can ada ever receive aueh a recomraendation, un leaa he approved himaelf more French than Engliah? (Hear, hear.) Again, by the 23rd reaolution, it ia provided that " the Le gislature of each province ahall di\ide auch province into the proper number of conatituen cies, and define the boundaries of each of them." How eaay would it be, under the proviaions of that clause, for the Local Legis lature to snuff out one-half of the English con atituenciea in Lower Canada. They might arrange ti eir bounda in such a manner that the English-speaking element would be con fined within very narrow limits. There would be a few constituencies left entirely English, but the English population would thus be deprived of the influence which their numbers and wealth sbould give them in the Local Legislature. (Hear, hear.) Again, the Local Legislature will have power to alter or amend their Constitution from time to time. We to-day may frame a Constitution — the English-speaking majority in this House may frame a Constitution which would give proper protection to the English-speaking population of Lower Canada. But, by this scheme it will be in the power of the local legialatures to change that, and to modify it so as to suit it to the wiahea or prejudicea of the French majority. We would be powerless, after we leave these halls, any longer to conserve our rights, and the privileges which this Parlia ment might give us may be taken away at the very first aesaion of the Local Legialature. Then look at tbe powers wbich, under this Constitution, are conferred on the Loca] Gov ernment. The first I find is the powSr of direct taxation. In the case of all govern ments, the power of taxation is tbe most im portant power they can possess. It is that which concerns all portions and all classes of the community, and wbich gives rise to the greatest controversy, and the greatest amount of difficulty. It ia the moat important of aU legialative powers, and this power ia to be con ferred on the Local Legialature of a province where one nationality haa four-fiftha of the' numbers, and the other nationality con tributes one-half of the taxes. Then tbe Local Legislature is to have the control of immigration— a very important subject, which deeply interests the English-speak ing population of Lower Canada— but they woula have no voice in framing the measures which might be adopted for directing and controlling that important matter. Then tbe Local Legialature is to have the control of education. And what subject can there be of greater importance ? And what sub ject is there which might be a source of greater strife between the two nationalities, which by^fhis provision would be brought into antagonism ? Even under our present s;^stem,:wi(h sixty-five Upper Canadian Eng lish-speaking members, who would naturally 795 be expected to sympathise with the English- speaking people of Lower Canada, it is a crying grievance with the latter tbat they cannot get such legislation on the subject of education as tbey desire. What, then, would they have to expect if they went into a Legislature where four-fifths of the repre sentatives were of a different nationality and a different religion, and whose prejudices and intereata were in opposition to the claims of the one-fifth minority ? (Hear, hear.) Then the Looal Legislature is to have con trol of " the eatabliahment, maintenance and management of hoapitals, asylums, charities, and eleemosynary inatitutiona." Now it ia a poaitive fact, aa I have atated before, that the Engliah-apoaking population of Lower Can ada, on account of their wealth and expenaive mode of living, their extravagant habita, their deaire for change and progreas, their different ideas generally from the French- Canadians, consume more than one-half of the dutiable soods that are brought into thia country, and pay one-half of the taxes ; and yet the money which they would pay into the public cheat would be diatributed by a majority over whom they had no control — a majority who would not in any manner aym- pathiae with them; and their taxea would be applied to objecta which they might not deem deairable— which they might, perhapa, con aider detrimental to tbeir intereata. And they would be completely without remedy, should this proposed Constitution unfortu nately be imposed upon them. (Hear, hear.) It is painful to me to be compelled to refer to these matters. It is not with pleasure that I bring before the House the antagonism which would inevitably ariae between the two nationalitiea, should they be brought together into one Legislature, with such a vaat diaproportion between their meana of taking their own part We are told, and told very truly— I rejoice that it ia the fact —that hitherto the two racea in Lower Can ada have lived in peace. But it would be impoasible that they could any longer live in peace; it would be impossible that with such a disparity of numbera, and with such antagonistic interista they ahould not come into conflict. It would be a conatant war fare, and thia new Conatitution, inatead of settling the sectional difficulties in this country, instead of bringing peace to tbis country, instead of removing jealousies .and heart-burnings, would have the yery opposite effect. Prom the fact that the field of conflict would be smaller, that the arena would be moro circumaoribed, the atrife would be all the fiercer. You are not bringing peace, but a aword. (Hear, hear.) Mr. POWELL— Doea the leader of the Opposition in Lower Canada assent to that ? (Hear, hear.) BIr, O'HALLORAN— It is not my pro vince to inquire wbat any hon. gentleman assents to or diaaenta from. What I have to do is to see that the interests of those who sent me here are not put in jeopardy. And it will be for the leader ofthe Opposition to aee that he too, on hia part, faithfully dis- cbargea hia du'y to those he repreaenta. But, air the Engliah-apeaking people of Lower Canada are to be amused, and their attention is to be diverted from a full exam ination of those serious matters wbich press themaelvea upon our conaideration, by cleverly drawn abatractiona and aopbiatries, such aa new nationalitiea — union ia atrength — a great empire — and the other plauaible pretexta that are attempted to be impoaed upon them. It would be eaay to refute and ahow how baaeleaa are all theae .schemea cf greatneaa with which the people of tbis country are sought to be misled. We are gravely aaked : " What man would reraain poor, when he could at once become rich ? What man would remain weak, when he could at once become powerful 1 Who would.be diminutive, when by merely taking thought he could add cubita to hia atature ? What people would continue to be a mere colony, when by the atroke of a pen they could at once become an erapire, under a new nationality ?" Sir, theae aophiatriea will not impoae upon the people of thia country. Where ia the deraonatration furniahed us that by this acherae you would add one dollar to the wealth of thia country, or one human being to ita inhibitanta, or one inch to ita territory ? We do not find it afforded during the courae of thia debate. I have liatened attentively to the arguments in favor ofthe scheme, but no atterapt has been made to demonstrate tbese thinga. It haa been repeatedly atated tbat we are about to consolidate the strength of this oountry, in order to reaiat invasion ; but I ahould like to know in what manner such an end is prOinoted by this measure. Are we not already united under one Government? Are we not already living under the control of the same executive power ? Do we not fight uuder the same flag, and pay allegiance to 796 the same Sovereign ? Is not every man in Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, Newfoundland, and Prince Edward Island just as much under the control of the head of our Govern ment aa the inhabitanta of thia province ? It is all aophiatry thia idea that we are going to increaae the atrength of thia country by the propoaed union with the Lower Pro vincea. An atterapt is made to alarm us by aeoaational rumora about invaaion, and it ia stated that we muat put forth every poaaible .strength to aave ouraelves from being swallowed up by the neighboring republic ; and we are gravely to'd that through the action of a number of self- constituted delegates assembled around a green table, and adopting certain resolutions, the whole of the physical laws relating to our country are to be changed. Newfound land and Prince Edward Island are to be brought up into Lake Ontario, and tbe whole of our territory ia to be compacted, conaolidated and strengthened. Our ex tended frontier is no longer to be exposed to attack, and, if attacked, will be much more easily defended. Is not thia the most abaurd aophiatry ? Can paper reaolutiona change the lawa of nature, or modify the phyaical geography of the country. Will not New foundland be aa iaolated from this province after Confederation ahall have been adopted, aa it is to-day ? I think, sir, it ia generally admitted that Canada ia unequal to the defence of ita own frontier againat invaaion from the only quarter from which it ia apprehended. It ia alao admitted that the Blaritime Provincea are alike unequal to tbe defence of their own frontier. By what proceaa then will you demonatrate to me, that by adding the frontier of the Lower Provincea to that of Canada, and by adding the force of thoae provinces to our own, there will not be the aame defenceleaaneas as at present ? Will there not be the same disproportion between the defensive power and the object to be defended ? (Hear, 'hear.) Mr. Speaker, in the first place I perceive no immediate necessity for those conatitu tional changes. I think that our preaent Conatitution ia ample for the wants of the people of this country, and tbat all the diffi cultiea, either real or imaginary, under which we labor, might be aolved, within the limita of our preaent Conatitution. I conaider rill our difficultiea to be merely aectional, ariaing neither from differencea of religion, of origin, of language, or of laws. On examination it will be found that they are merely fiscal difficulties, and that they arise from the fact that our General Government does not con fine itself to the true end and object of its existence. Do away with your local grants, and your absurd syatem of compenaating for one improper expenditure by the creation of another. Let there be no expenditure for merely local purpoaes, or for purposea that do not properly come within the functions of the General Government. (Hear, hear.) By what rule of right, for instance, are the inhabitants of Upper Canada called upon to pay for the redemption of the seigniorial tenure of Lower Canada ; and what right has Lower Canada to be called upon to meet the extravagant municipal indebtednesa of Upper Canada ? If our difficultiea ariae from differences of language and races, how comes it that the Engliah- apeaking people of Lower Canada have ao long harraonized and ay-mpathized with the extremeUltramontane party of J J ower Canada? (Hear, bear.) I think you cannot find any reaaon for it, except on the auppoaition that they reraain united for the purpoae of raaintaining their aectional power and in fluence, under a ayatem by which the coramon exchequer ia deemed a legitimate object of public plunder. Each aection seeras to have always regarded tbe public cheat as fair game; and it is undeniable that Lower Canada has generally had the beat of it. These thinga cauaed diaaatiafaction in tbe minda of people from other aections of the country, and they undertake to form combinationa for the purpose of obtaining from the public cheat aimilar undue advan tagea. The remedy for this atate of things is to deprive the Legialature of the power to make granta for local objecta. Let there be no revenue collected more than ia absolutely neceaaary for the general expenaes of the country, and let it be diatributed for those general pur poaea with due economy, and we ahall hear nothing more of aectional difficulties. (Hear, hear.) Mr. Speaker, in connection with thia same idea, I find in my own mind another very important consideration con nected with the adrainistration of the governraent of our oountry. It has now, I believe, ceased to be a crime to " look to Washington." Not long ago, the term " looking to Washington " waa one of re proach. But that time haa paaaed away, , and our friends on the other side of the 797 House have not only looked to Washington, but absolutely gone there, and imported the worst features of the republican system for in corporation in our new Coostitution. While they were doing this, I regret very much that they did not import from Washington, or from some other parts of the United States, their ideas of economy in the administration of the fiacal affairs of the country. (Hear, hear.) I regret they did not import from that country a very important principle prevail ing there, to the effect that the Government of tbe day shall impose as few burdens upon the people as possible. To-day, sir, we are paying the mau who stands at that door to admit you to this chamber a greater annual salary than is paid to the Governor of the State of 'V^ermont. We are paying the man who stands in that corner with his paste brush to wrap up our papers, more than the indemnity allowed to a United States sena tor. We pay the Governor General a greater allowance than is received by the President of the United States of America. We are the most heavily taxed people, and pay larger salaries for the work performed, in propor tion to our resources, than any other people in- tbe world. Hon. Atty. Gen. MACDONALD— We pay ourselves well too. (Laughter.) Mr, O'HALLORAN— It has 'been said, and it seems to be thought a strong argti- ment in favor of this scheme, that we must do something ; that our affairs cannot with advantage go on in the same channel in which they have been doing ; aud that there is a necessity for some change. It is made a complaint that legislation is obstructed by party strife, and that the country suffers for the want of new laws. Sir, if there is one vulgar error in political economy more false and unsound than another, it is that the prosperity of any country depends on the amount of its legislation. We have, as a general thing, too much legis lation. If I may use the term, we are legis lated to death. And when I have seen bills pouring into this House ty the hundred at every session, I have said to myself: — " What, in Heaven'a name, will become of this country if all these bills should, by any possibility, ever become law ? " (Laughter.) The idea seems to prevail, that in this coun try even the grasa cannot grow unless its growth is regulated by au Act of Parliament. No change in the Conatitution ofthis country will remedy the difficulties of which you complain, for they have their aource within ourselves. It is honest, economical adminis tration you require, not legislation, or a change in our form of Government. '"Bout forma of government let fools contest. That which ia beat adminiatered is best." You may remove you. aeat of govemment to Ottawa, and increase your Legialature from 130 to 194 membera, but you will find the same difficulties under any system of govern ment which you may adopt, ao long as you continue extravagant sectional expenditure. Those difficultiea will atill meet ynu in the face, so long as tbe legislature or legislatures of the country are permitted to exercise functions that do not properly belong to a general government ; ao long aa you refuae to corapel localitiea to raeet their own local expenditure by local meana, you will find the aarae cauaea producing the aarae effecta in Ottawa aa in Quebec. Caelum non animam mutant qui trails mare currunt. (You but change your akiea by tbe propoaed conatitu tional changes.) I remarked, at the outset, that I must deny to this House the right to impose on this country this or any other Conatitution, without firat obtaining the conaent of the people. Who aent you here to frame a Conatitution ? You were sent here to adminiater the Conatitution as you find it. Throughout the length and breadth of Britiah North America, there ia not one other government that haa dared to arrogate to itaelf the right of changing the Constitu tion of their people without consulting them, except oura. I am aurprised, sir, tliat even this strong Government of ours have dared to assume this power, when, sooner or later, they must go before the people ofthe country. (Hear, hear.) There comes to my hand, this evening, a resolution proposed by the Honorable Attorney General of Newfound land in the Legialature of that colony. It is instructive as ahewing that there was one uniform sentiment, throughout all the Lower Provinces, in favor of submitting the queation to the people. It waa ao aubmitted in New Brunswick — it met its fate. It is now about to be submitted to the people of Nova Sco tia. The Administration ol this province have been wiser in their generation thau those of the Lower Provinces. They did not dare to submit it for the consideration of the people — a courae which, if not exhihiting wiadom on their part, shows, at the least, that skill and craft in public matters for 798 which most of them have become famous. (Hear, hear.) The resolution I have refer red to, and which embodies the policy of the Government of Newfoundland on this quea tion, is as follows : — Resolved, — That having had under their most aerioua and deliberate consideration the proposal for the formation of a Federal union of the Britiah North American Provincea, upon the terma con tained in the report of the Convention of dele gates, held at Quebec, on the 10th of October laat — the despatch of the Right Honorable the Secretary of State for the Coloniea, dated De cember 3rd, 1864 — the observationa of Hia Excellency the Governor in relation to this aub ject in hia opening^Speech of the present session — and the report ofthe Newfoundland delegatea — thia committee are of opinion, that having regard to the comparative novelty and very great im portance of thia project, it ia desirable that before a vote ot the Legislature is taken upon it, it should be submitted to the consideration of the people at large,> particularly as the action ofthe other proviuces does not appear to require that it should be hastily dispoaed of, and as (the present being the laat aesaion of this Assembly) no unreaaonable delay can be occasioned by this course; and they, therefore, recommend thata final determination upon this important subject be 'deferred to the next meeting of the Legisla ture. (Hear, hear.) An Hon. MEMBER— That is the report of a committee. Mr. O'HALLORAN— Yes, it is the report of a committee ; but it was submitted to the Legislature by the Hon. Attorney General as the policy of the Government, Of course, if the resolution is not carried in the Legislature, then, the scheme is doubly defeated. In this little, petty province, whose interests, as compared with ours, are of trifling importance in relation to the scheme, the Government considers that the que.stion is one of sufficient moment to demand that before the slightest action is taken upon it by the Legislature, the people should be consulted ; but in this large province, with its coraparatively large popu lation, and with iraportant interests to be affected, the scheme is to be hurried through without allowing the people to have a voice in the matter, or even to have time for its consideration. (Hear, hear.) Tbey are to have no voice in determining what kind of government they and their children are to live under for yeara to come, BIr Speaker, I know very well that it ia a bold declaration for me to make, that this Parliament has no right to deal with this question ; but, sir, I make it not hastily nor unadvisedly, because I defy honorable geutiemen to find a prece dent for their propoaed action in any free country under similar circumstances. We are not living to-day in a time of revo lution or of great emergency; but, even if our circumstances were different, I doubt very rauch if any of the precedents that have been referred to, aa having occur red many yeara ago and in troubloua timea. could again be practised or adopted, even in England, from which country we draw all our precedents. The precedents which have been invoked in approval of the course that has been adopted by the Government prove too muoh. If they form a justification for the course we are pursuing, then you might prove by the same means that thia Houae had the power to perpetuate ita exiatence beyond the limit fixed for the termination of the preaent Parliaraent, or vote ouraelves membera for life. We might juat as well constitute ourselves life members of the Federal T'Cgislature of tbe proposed Con federacy, aa to take the action that ia contem plated. I know that it ia repreaented aa very important that the meaaure ahould be carried into immediate operation ; but thatia amatter of mere expediency, and haa nothing to do with conatitutional principlea. (Hear, hear.) The Irish union haa been trium phantly referred to aa a precedent for thia meaaure. To my mind it ia a moat unfor tunate one, and little deaerving of our imi tation. Let me show you how thia matter haa been regarde I by one, whoae authority will not be diaputed. I read from BIat's Constitutional History of England, page 505 of the 2od volume. Speaking of the union of Ireland with England, he aays : — A great end was compassed by means the most base and shameless. Grattan, Lord Charlemont, Ponsoxbv, Plunkett, and a few patriots, continued to protest against the aale of the libertiea and free Constitution of Ireland. Their eloquence and public virtue coramand the reapect of poaterity ; but the wretched hiatory of their country deniea them ita sympathy. Thia, sir, ia the judgment of the impartial English hiatorian upon tbe meana by which this great national crime waa consummated, and it is the juat eneanium on the noble few whoae patriotic efforta failed to prevent it. I read it, in anticipation, aa the future hiatory of the wrong now about to be perpetrated on tbe people of thia country; and while it impliea, on the one hand, in no doubtful terma, the well-merited praise of 799 the small band who stand here to-night for the rights of the people, in opposition to this scheme, it pronounces, on the other, the just condemnation of thoae who trample on those righta, and who forget, in the pride of their brief authority, who it waa that raiaed them to tbe poaitions they occupy, not that tbey might coerce, but carry out the will of the people, the only rightful source of all political power. fCheers.) Mr. j. S. ROSS— I wUl not attempt to address the. House at any great length at this late hour of the evening, as I think it very desirable that this debate should be brought to a close at as early a day as possible ; and believing that that is the prevailing opinion in this House, I shall endeavor to be as brief as I can. ' The hon. gentleman who bas just taken hia aeat haa referred to one matter on which 1 shall not at present say anything, on which I shall not commit myself. I auppoae that it will be very well understood what I refer to, without my alluding to it more particularly. But there waa another atatement which he made — that there waa no neceaaity for any change^on wbich I ahall dwell abortly, and endeavor to ahow that there waa a necessity for a change. It must be in the recollection of every hon. member in this House, that one year ago affairs were in such a state — such difficulties presented themselves, that legislation was becoming almost impracticable. No better proof of this could be deaired thau thatthe Government ofthe day found themselves so surrounded with difficulties in the House, that they declared themselves unable to carry on the adminiatration of the affairs of the country in a satiafactory man ner. Now, why should a Government poaaeasing ao much talent and ability aa that Government did, make that declaration, if there was no neceaaity for it ? (Hear, hear.) Hon. j. S. BIACDONALD— If you had voted with ua, it would have been all right. (Hear and laughter.) Mr. ROSS — Although I always enter tained a very high opinion of the honorable gentieman who waa Premier ofthat Govern ment, I differed from him politically. Then, Mr. Speaker, there ia another matter to whioh I shall refer, to show that this House did acknowledge that there were difficultiea in the way. A motion waa made by the honorable member lor South Oxford for the appointment of a cc^mittee on conatitutional changes. That committee reported to this House, and I will just read the last para graph of that report in support of what I have said : — A strong feeling waa found to exist among the members of the committee in favor of changes in the direction of a Federative ayatem, applied either to^Canada alone, or to the whole Britiah North American Provinces, and such progress has beeu made as to warrant the committee in recommending that the subject be again referred to a committee at tha next session of Parliament. Now, thia waa signed by twelve gentlemen, and among them I find the honorable mem ber for Chateauguay, who then^declared that there was a neeeasity for some change. I think, BIr, Speaker, that this clearly shows that the matter was not brought upon us in a hurry, that the scheme now before us is a subject which has been looked forward to for some time. When we refer to that period, we find that the Government of the day placed their resignations in Hia Excellency's handa, a new Government waa formed which met the Houae on the Brd of May, and on the 14th of June they were defeated. At that time, I believe, they had obtained from Hia Excellency per mission to dissolve the House. An effort waa made, however, to effect a change in the Adminiatration, in order that it might com mand a majority of this House, and be enabled to carry ou the buainesa of the country. After some time, a reconstruction was effected, and in the programme which the present Government adopted, they did announce that they would take up this ques tion, and that when they met the House the next session, they would be prepared to lay- before the House a measure for the purpose of removing existing difficulties, by intro ducing the Feaeral principle into Canada, coupled with such provision as will permit the Maritime Provinces and the North-West territory to be incorporated with^.the ss.me system of govemment. If there were objectiona to a change, why were they not made at that time ? Did not the House commit itaelf, then, by receiving it without any objection ? Hence I think that the Gov ernment puraued a manly, atraightforward courae in coming down and announcing what their scheme was ; and whether that acheme is a good or a bad one, they have redeemed their pledgea ; they have met this House with a scheme for the Confederation of th« British North American Provinces. (Hear.) Whether this scheme ii all that we could desire or net, ic perhaps a matter on whick 800 we shall not be unanimous. I for one, ever aince I have thought anything about poli tica, have alwaya looked forward to the time when auch a scheme as this might be carried out. I have been an advocate of a legislative union. I think thatis the correct principle, but I am not ashamed to aay that I am open to conviction, and in dealing with a great queation like this we muat not expect to have everything to meet our own viewa ; we muat be prepared to make conceaaiona, and take the beat we can get. (Hear, hear.) We know the heaitation with which the Conatitution of the United States was accepted ; that Washington — the father of that great country — expressed himself, as well as many other eminent peraona, against it, but accepted it aa the best that could be had. We find the aame expreaaiona falling from the gentlemen of the Conference which prepared tt is meaaure. They believe that it waa the very beat that could be had under the circumatancea. (Hear.j Now, if we look for one moment at tbe work of the Con ference which met here in Quebec, whether the acheme is what we all could desire for the benefit of the country o) not, we must admit that tbe gentlemen who coraposed that Con ference were men of ability, men of mind, men who have for yeara been the guiding apirita of public aff4ra. (Hear, hear.) And the honorable gentlemen from the Lower Pro vincea atand iu their reapective provincea equally high with those who represented Ca nada, and I am ready to believe that the del egatea who compoaed thia Conference ap proached the queation in a apirit of the tru- eat patriotiam, with the honeat endeavor to aettle the difficultiea of the country, and in the hope that the scheme would be accept able to the people, and be the meana of bring ing us together, and conaolidating and build ing up in thia part of the glorious Em,, ire, a government that would be laating and stable. (Hear, hear, and cheers.) And, Mr. Speaker, I think there has been nothing that has proved more acceptable, or that has been better received by the people of the country. (Hear, hear.) So far as I am con cerned, I took the opportunity of bringing the subject before my constituents, and when I read the first clause of the resolutions — " The beat interests and present and future prosperity of British North America wiU be proraoted by a Federal union under the Crown of Great Britain, provided auch union can be effected on principlea just to the sev eral provinces," sir, it met with their hearty cheers. (Hear, hear.) Although I have not the honor to represent one of the largest constituencies in Upper Canada, yet I re present one that I am proud of — the people of the good old county of Dundas are sound at the core ; they do glory in British con nection, and nothing would induce them to support me or any other representative who would give an uncertain answer to the ques tion of whether we should retain that connec tion or not. (Cheers.) Sir, I believe that the time is upon us, when we look at the sur rounding difficulties, for us to make some change, and there is an uncertainty in the minds of Canadians at present that we ought to get rid of, and the sooner we approach the subject the better. The sooner we find out that we have a great future to establish, that we have a country here of which we may feel proud and rejoice in, I think, sir, the sooner that state of things is brought about the bet ter. (Cheers.) Not only in a Canadian point of view is this desirable, but also for the sake of our position alongside of our neighbors, with whom, I am sure, we all de sire to remain at peace, if they will only leave us in quiet amongst ourselves. That is all that we desire, but at the same time it ia well tbat these people should understand that we have no desire whatever, not the most remote intention, of connecting our destinies with theira. (Cheera.) Now, Mr. Speaker, it ia aaid that this' matter is new, and tbat it ia forced upon ua. I recollect reading, aome yeara ago, moat able letters written by Hon. Mr. Howe, of Nova Scotia, addressed to Lord John Russell, to show how necessary this union was. Dr. PARKER— I would like to ask the honorable gentleman if those letters were not in favor of a 1 .-gislative union ? Mr. ROSS— I think they were; but I be lieve that if he — the writer of them — had found himself at Quebec as one of the dele gates, he would have done just as they did. Again, I find that at another time in our coun try, in 1849, in the city of Kingston, one hun dred and forty gentlemen, chosen by the peo ple — tbe ablest and foremost men of the coun try, and presided over by a gentleman who has since left this state of action — a gen tleman of high mind, and universally respected — I mean the late Hon. George Moppatt — that organization, the British League, acknow ledged that to lay a basis for the future of this country, a union of the British North American Provinces was essential. (Cheers.) If I had time, sir, I could show that at several 801 periods in the House of Commons, the union of these provinces haa been spoken of as what must eventually take place. And since the subject has been uuder discussion in this oountry, I have read with the greatest satis faction, in the press of the United States, arti clea showing the advantages of this union ; and in particular one very able article in the Chicago Times, in which the writer pays the people of this couutry a high compliment for the foresight with which they are seeking to protect their interests in the future. (Hear, hear.) There are other authorities to which I could refer to show the advantages of a union of these provinces. Whether Legislative or Federal unimportant — union ia atrength, and union ia deairable if we expect future growth and greatneas. I think the arguments are in favor of a legislative union. When we ap proach the subjectfairly, we must acknowledge that it is not reasonable to suppose that the people of the Lower Provinces should prefer a Federal to a Legislative union. I can quite understand why they appreciate the advantages of the local parliaments ; to ask them to give up their whole machinery of government, and to place themselves in the hands and at the tender mercies of a people who would have the commanding infiuences in the legislation of the country, and with whom they are com paratively little acquainted, would be asking rather too much. There is also some reason to fear why a legislative union would be too cumbersome. Many think that too much of the time of the Legislature of the country would be taken up with the local buaineaa of the different sections of the province. I believe, after this machinery haa been well in operation, and after we have be come better acquainted with each othei , that we shall find we can work together, and that this has been a movement in the right direction, by bringing together the people from all parta of the country. We ahall find that our interests are better understood, indeed that they are one ; it will be the more easy to do away with the local parliamenta, and to merge them all into one. (Hear, hear.) Then, air, there will be thia advantage from the preaent scheme — we sball have the machinery for governing the whole country in existence; and it will be easy for those who desire it — if in the -wisdom of the people who will be living under the institutions of the country at that time, it is thought desirable — the necessary machinery will be in existence for consolidation, and the change will not be ofthat radical nature that it would be at the present moment. Take another view of the case, which I believe will 102 be borne out by the facts ; if we are united — if we shew to the world at large that we have reaolved upon a more enlarged sphere of exist ence for the future — the population of this country will increase to such an extent, that there will be work enough for the local gov ernments as well as for the General Govern ment. I think, also, that the ayatem will have the effect of inducing, on the part of the local adminiatrationa, a apirit of emulation in the way of conducting their respective govern ments as cheaply and aa economically as pos sible. I have no doubt, too, that when the local parliaments are once established, the people will see the advantage of material changes in the municipal institutions of the country ; those institutions being to a greater degree subordinated to"" the local govern ments. At all events, these are all matters for future consideration, and possibly for future action. (Hear, hear.) I shall now, Mr. Speaker, refer briefiy to the question of Confederation in a commercial point of view. It is stated that in this respect no benefit will accrue to tbe country — that there will be no increai!e of trade between the provinces. But I ask this House to look at the matter in this light — and I am sorry to say that we have good reason for so viewing it — there can be no doubt of the fact. The United Statea bave given notice of the abrogation of the Reciprocity treaty, and there ia too muoh cause for the apprehenaion that the bonding ayatem wUl alao be done away with. Well, if we are cut off from all these facilitiea and ad vantagea, what ia our poaition ? We are cut off' from the ocean for aix months of the year, aud in this respect our position of dependency on a foreign power ia a moat humiliating one. (Hear, hear.) The conatruction of the In tercolonial Railway haa been inaiated upon aa a commercial neceaaity, and although it may be an expenaive work, I think the time has come when it muat be built. I may briefly atate my own poaition in regard to that un dertaking. When the appropriation w a brought up for the Intercolonial Railway aur- vey, ao atrongly waa I oppoaed to that acheme at the time that I voted againat it. But, aa I have already atated, I now aee the necessity for it. I believe the time haa come when this railway should be constructed. (Hear, hear.) I hope it will be constructed in a proper and economical manner, and, when it is built, I believe that in a commercial point, our poai tion will be greatly improved. (Hear, hear.) It ia impoaaible for any honorable gentleman to shew that by means of that raUway no increase of trade will spring up between the 802 different provincea. Western Canada is de- cidelly an agricultural oountry ; it haa a large .surplua of grain, and it must find an cutlet for it. Shut out from the United States, and deprived of winter communication, where are we to go ? To atore and houae it throughout the winter months would be a great cau:-e of loaa. It ia aaid that the export of grain during the winter ia not profitable. But do not the United Statea ahip continuously large quan tities of flour and products to England aud to other parta of the world in the winter season ? And what ahould hinder ua from purauing the same course if we have the Intercolonial Railway? (Hear.) Hoo. gentlemen may attempt to argue that auch ia not the caae, and endeavor to conceal the faci; but I firmly believe it to be the policy of the United Statea to introduce coercive mea=urea, with the view of making usf'eel that our commercial intereata are identified with thera, and I believe they will continue that courae of policy towards ua, not perhapa to the extent of immediate invaaion and attempted aubjugation, but 1 fear that their policy will be one of a re strictive kind, 80 aa to make ua feel aa much aa they can our awkward poaition of depend ence. Such, I believe, is their policy. They do not intend immediate invaaion, but in atead of that, they will, 80 to speak, put on the screws, in order, if possible, to make us feel that our iuterest is wit.i them and not separate from them. ;_Hear, hear.) I can very well see and very well understand the meaning of thia desire to annex Canada, al though many have maintained that such ia not their wish. Going back to the early his tory of the United States, I find that even in the articles of Federation of the United Statea, it ia provided by the llth artick that Canada, acceding, shall be entitled to participate in all the righta and privilegea of the union, whilat they refuaed to allow any other country to come in unleaa with the con aent of nine states. The war of 1812, too, evinced a atjong dispositio'j on the part of our neij^hbora to attach CanaJa. And I be lieve that ti,e atatesmen of the United States, in our own day, are animated by the a;ime far-sei ing policy in regard to this country, and that thoy are now applying a little gentle preaaure to make ua feel that our interest is no longer to lemain iaolated from theni, but to connect oui destiny with theirs. Not long aince I liatened to a certain lecture in this city, in which it appeared to rae that induce menta were purpoaely and deaignedly held out for us to connect our deatiniea with those of the people of the neighboring States. It was said that the great cause of difficulty in the United States was now removed, and that there was no obstacle now in the way of their material and aocial progresa. Well, sir, I ac knowledge that they are a great people, and that their advancement has been great ; but I fail to perceive that, if true to ourselves, we have not the same advantages. (Hear, hear.) At aU events, if our advantages are not so great, they are sufficient for all our purposes, and we ought to be satisfied. There is one other consideration to which I desire to al lude. When we look at the people who in habit these provinces, and consider from whence they come and what are their charac teriatica, that they are a progreaaive, enter priaing and go-a-head people, is it reasonable to suppose that we are alwaya going to re main in thia state of uncertainty ? Is it reasonable to auppoae that we are always to be divided into different provincea, with an imaginary line ? Have we no deaire or wiah to expand and grow ? And, I aak, is it poa sible that we can hope to attain national greatness in a separate state of existence ? I think that the interests of the several pro vinces should be consolidated. There is no disputing the reaourcea of the country, so far a a territory ia concemed. Stretching from the Atlantic to the Pacific, it ia ample for the support and sustenance of a great people. I have even heard it said, by persons who are good authority on the subject, that they believe the child is now born who wiU see British North America inhabited by a popu- htion of 60,000,000. This may be going too far, but 1 think there can be no doubt a large increase to our numbers will take place when we shall have given effect to the scheme now in contemplation. (Hear, and cheers.) The honorable meinber for Hochelaga (Hon. BIr. Dorion) stated in the course of his re marks that it would be a dark day for Ca nada should these resolutiona be adopted. Mr. Speaker, that may be that honorable gentleman's opinion j but I muat aay that I differ frora him entirely. On the contrary, I believe it will be a dark day for the whole country if we cannot agree upon some plan for aecuring our apeedy union. (Cheers.) The honorable gentleman also atated that the scheme waa far too conaervative in its char acter. Well, I can understand why the hon orable gentleraan sbould find fault with it on that account, but I confess that that does not trouble me in the slightest degree. (Cheers.) He declares that it wUl destroy 803 the great Liberal party. I should be sorry to see such a calamity. I have always pro fessed to be a liberal — a raoderate man in politics. (Hear, hear.) While I would be sorry to see any great prrty destroyed by tbia acheme, I would particularly regret to wit neaa the deatruction of the great Liberal party. (He ir, hear.) I believe, however, that that party will not be deatroyed in any such manner. After this great scheme ia perfected, we will have parties tbe sarae aa before. There may be aome changea as re garda individuala, but I truat that at all events there will still be a great Liberal party. (Cheers and laughter.) Party is necessary for the good government of the country ; but I trust that party feeling will not be manifested for the sake of creating divisions and discorda, but that all parties will unite to build up a power here which will be felt and respected throughout the world. (Hear, hear, and cheers.) The hon orable member for Brome (Mr. DtrNKi.-v) made sorae remarks whioh it strack me were very singular in their character, but which are a fair instance of the manner be adopts to illustrate and subatantiate hia viewa. He quoted from Engliah atatesmen and English publications all that could poaaibly be cited to throw doubt upon the scheme ; but the moment English opinion was invoked in its favor, he turned round and declared that English views on Canadian affairs were en tirely unreliable. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) As, however, that honorable gentleman is not preaent, I sball not refer further to his statements. The honorable member fbr Corn wall (Hon. J. S. Macdonald), for whom I have always entertained the highest respect, said that the cry of annexation had been raised in order to push this scheme through. Well, sir, if I am not miataken, the honorable meralser for Hochelaga (Hon. Mr. Dorion) said that thia waa the very measure to bring about annexation. (Laughter.) Hon. J. S. MACDONALD— The Pre mier stated that we were being driven towards annexation, and that this scheme would stop it. Mr. ROSS — I think I have detained the House too long already ; and if opportunity presents itself I will claim the indulgence of the House while I refer to one or two other pointa hereafter. (Criea of " Go onl") Aa I said before, I believe the gentlemen who met in Quebec approached the matter in a spirit and with a desire to adopt a Constitution wliioh would be for the good of the whole country. And although I do not entirely concur in the resolutions — although there are some things about them whioh I would deaire to see changed, I ahall give them my aupport as a whole. Tako the Constitution of the Upper House for instance — I would prefer rather to see the present system retained ; but aa the delegatea thought fit to change it, I would not feel justified in voting againat the whole acheme on account of my objection to one or two itema of detaU. (Hear, hear.) We must expect to give up, to a certain extent our opinio s in order to the attainment of greater benefits than we at preaent enjoy. I, at any rate, feel it my duty to act in this manner, and I feel alao tbat the honorable gentlemen will deaerve the best th-mka of the country if the acheme whioh they have brought down shall be carried into effect. I do hope that whatever may take place — that whatever checks thia scheme may meet with — it will eventually be succesaful, and that Addreasea will be paased by the reapective legialaturea aaking Her Majeaty to paaa a meaaure giving effect to thia acheme. When thia Conatitution shall have been perfected and ratified — when there ahall no longer be any doubta bout ita containing the principles upon which the government of the country is founded — every true-hearted and loyal Cana dian will have cause to rejoice that hia lot has been caat in auch a highly - favored land. (Cheera.) BIr. BOWMAN — As the discussion on this great queation appeara to be rapidly drawing to a cloae, I deaire to offer a few re marka upon the acheme of Confederation be fore voting for it. The queation of conatitu tional reform is not a new one in Canada. It ia a question which haa occupied the atten tion of the atatesmen, the preaa and the peo ple of thia country for a number of yeara ; and so urgent have been the demanda for re form on the part of the people of Upper Can ada, tbat it haa been found impoaaible to form a Government Under our preaent! ayatem, for several yeara paat, wbich could command a majority in the Houae aufficiently large to carry on the buaineaa of the country with auocesa. The people of Weatern Canada have, for a nuniber of yeara, agitated atrongly for increaaed repreaentation in Parliament, the juatice of which few will pretend to deny. 0 wing to the diaparity in the population of the two aectiona of the province, and the manifeat injustice which ia done to Upper Ca.ucda, 1 am aatiafied that some change must be made soon, with a view of establish- sow ing a more satisfactory system of govern ment. (Hear, hear.) The people are so thoroughly in earnest on this question, tbat I am perauaded they are prepared to give a fair trial to any acheme whioh offers a reaaonable proapect of inaugurating a better and more aatiafactory state of affaira. (Hear, hear.) There are, in my opinion, two methods by whioh thia may be done. The first ia a le gialative union between Upper and Lower Canada, based upon representation by popu lation ; the aecond ia by a Federal union either between tne two Canadaa or between all the British North American Provinces. Unleas one or other of these two remedies is speedily applied, there ia great danger that au entire separation of the two provinces may ultimate ly take place, which, in my opinion, would prove fatal to our exiatence as a British colony. (Hear, hear.) Our proximity to the United Statea makes it neceasary that the union ahould be maintained at almoat any coat. In order to effect a change in our Con stitution, it is highly deairable to obtain the conaent of a majority of the repreaentativea of both aectiona of the province ; for, although a scheme might be adopted by the majority of one section, aided by the minority of the other section, it would not give such general aatisfaction aa could be deaired. The de manda made by the people of Upper Canada for repreaentation by population under the existing union, have hitherto been reaiated by the people of Lower Canada with a degree of determination that has convinced even the moat aanguine advocates of that meaa-are that it ia impracticable, at least for some time to oome. Admitting, then, that re presentation by population under the exiat ing union cannot be obtained, I think it is our duty to endeavor to find some other aolution of our sectional difficultiea. In my opinion the formation of a ayatem of government baaed upon the Federal principle, with a Central ParliamenI which ahall have the control of mattera common to all the provincea, and a Local Legialature for each province to man age local aff'aira, ia the only ayatem which will prove aatiafactory to the people of theae pro vincea. Such ia the scheme now under dia cussion by thia Houae. It ia said by some ofthe opponents pf the present scheme that there ia no necesaity for a change, that the people of Upper Canada have abandoned tiieir agitation for constitutional reform, and that they are perfectly content to go on as they are. I can only say to those honorable gen tlemen that th^ are entirely miataken. The desire for a change is as strong now as ever, and the people of Western Canada wUl never be satisfied until their just demands are con ceded in some shape or other. (Hear, hear.) We are not the only people who have fouud it necessary to alter their Constitution. There; is hardly a nation in the civilized world which has not, from time to time, found it itseK" compelled fo change its form of govemment, in order to keep pace with fhe ordinary pro gresa of eventa ; and we generally find that thoae great political changea which reault in the conaolidation or disruption of empires, are brought about by violent civil commo tions, involving tbe sacrifice of thousands of valuable lives and the expenditure oi millions of money. Of this fact we have a melancholy example in the present condition of the United States, The Constitution of that country was laid down by some of the wiseat and ablest stateamen, yet i-j leas than a cen tury after its formation, tbe people who have hitherto looked upon it as being the most perfect Constitution in the world, find theraselves in the midat of a moat dia aatroua war, trying to remove a conatitu tional difficulty which has given them a vast deal of trouble. Now, if we shall succeed in , laying down a permanent basia for the con aolidation of theae provincea — if we ahall 8u;ceed in forming a union which will reauli in the perpetuation of Britiah inatitutiona on thia continent, and thus check the abaorbing influence of the neighboring republic — we ahall confer a great boon upon poaterity, and prevent .uuch bitter atrife among ouraelves. (^Hear, hear.) While deliberating upon this scherae, we should diveat our minds as much as possible of old political associations, in order that we may give it that calm and de liberate oonaideration which ita great impor tance demanda. When we consider the sec tional difficultiea to be adjuated, the conflict ing intereata whioh are to be reconciled, and the prejudicea which are to be overcome, it is evident that we muat conaider thia scheme in the spirit of comproraiae. Blutual concea- sions must be made,ao as to respect the rights and feelings of all, so far as it can be done without doing an injustice to any. In refer ence to the acheme now before the Houae, allo-w me to aay that although there are some of its details to whicb I am opposed, yet, taking it as a whole, I believe it is the 'best that can be obtained under our peculiar cir cumatancea, and therefore I feel it to be my duty to ai'.pport it. That part of the scheme ' wbich provides for a nominated Legislativ« 805 Council I believe to be contrary to tbe wishes of a majority of the people of Western Ca nada, and particularly of my own constitu ents. I think it will be admitted that the elective system has given us a class of repre sentatives in that body which would do honor to any country in the world, and I should prefer to see that system continued. But while I would be prepared to vote for an amendment which would have for ita object the perpetuation of the preaent system, pro- -vided it could be done without interfering with the success of Confederation, yet I do not believe that my constituenta are prepared to reject the whole acheme, siraply because there are a few features in it which are not exactly in accordance with their views. And I can assure you, Mr. Speaker, that I have no desire to do ao. The opponenta of the scheme appeal to the French population, telling them that their nationality is in danger, that they will be entirely absorbed in the Central Legialature, and that their righta and libertiea will be interfered with. Then the same partiea tell the Engliah of Lower Can ada that their nationality and their schools will be entirely at tbe mercy of tbe French in the Local Legialature. And, with a view of obtaining the , defeat of the scheme in the weat, they appeal to the pocketa of the people of Upper Canada, aaaerting that they will have to bear the greater proportion of tbe taxation under tbe new ayatem. Now, I think it haa been clearly ahown that the Maritime Provincea will contribute their full share towards the public revenue — that tbey wUl pay as much per head as Upper Canada, and much more than Lower Canada, so that the financial argument againat Confederation cannot be substantiated. Thoae honorable gentleraen who are trying to defeat tbe scheme by appealing to the pnjudices and sectional animosities of the people of Lower Canada, should bear in mind that they are pursuing a course whieh is calculated to mar the har monious working of any system of govern ment, and that if they should succeed in de feating the scheme, it would go very far to convince the people of Upper Canada that Lower Canada is determined not to conaent to any meaaure of juatice to Upper Canada. (Hear, hear.) It ia also asserted that this scheme will bring about a separation from the Mother Country. Now, I believe that the advocates of union are as deairous to perpe tuate our connection with Great Britain as its opponents, and that it is desirable to main tain that connection as long as possible. But assuming that we are laying the foundation ofa British North American Empire, whioh is destined to become independent of the Mother Country, after our resources have become sufficiently developed, and our vast territory has been filled up with an industrious, intel ligent and thrifty population, I do not think auch an anticipation ahould induce ua to vote against it. Another objection which ia raiaed againat this scheme is the supposition that tbe Maritime Provinces will oppose the open ing up of the North-West territory, which is an unwarrantable assuraption on the part of tbe opponents of Confederation ; for I think it will be found that even the people of those provinces will see that it is for their interest to have that portion of our dominions opened up for settlement. Such a course would extend their field for trade and commerce, in which the Maritime Provinces are extensively en gaged, ao that the advantagea would be of a mutual character. A great deal haa been aaid about aubmitting tho acheme to the people before it ia finally adopted, and I muat aay that I could never make up my mind to vote for it without firat having an expression of popular opinion upon it in some way or other, unless I were perfectly satisfied that a large majority of ray constituents are in favor of it. I took the precaution to hold a number of public meetings in the conatituency which I represent, in order to obtain the views of the people upon it, and, in almost every in stance, a large majority present at thoae meet inga, not only expressed themselves in favor of the general features of the scheme, but also expressed a desire that it should be dealt with and adopted by this Parliament without first holding a general election. I shall take much pleasure in voting for the scheme now before the Houae, believing that by ao doing I shall best discharge my duty to my conatituents and to the country at large. (Cheera.) Mr. WALSH aaid — It waa my intention, during the earlier atagea of thia debate, to have aaked the Houae to bear with me while I made some lengthened remarka on the im portant aubject embraced in the reaolutions now in your hands. It was my iutention to review the circumstances which made it necessary that the acheme now aubmitted should be placed before the inhabitanta of Britiah North America — to trace fully the courae of the aectional agitation with re ference to the difficultiea between Upper and Lower Canada — and to ahow how it had gradually grown in importance, untU the time had arrived when we had to accept 806 one of two alternatives — a dissolution of the existing union between Upper and Lower Canada, or some larger scherae, auch aa that now conteraplated by the people of theae provinces. I should also have atated at sorae length my reaaons, if we had to decide between theae alternativea for oppoaing the former. I believe — and I think hon. gen tlemen almost unanimoualy in thia Houae agree with me — that the union exiating be tween theae provincea tt the preaent time haa, in all its important bearings, more than reaUzed the moat aanguine anticipationa of thoae who were concemed in bringing it about. We have seen, since the union, an increase in the population, revenue and resourcea of theae provinces seldom witneaaed in the hiatory of any country. We have aeen two peoplea entirely diaaimilar in race, language and inatitutiona — having nothing in common but their joint allegianc-i to the aame Crown — we have aeen thoae two peoplea rapidly be coming one people — one in name, one in object, one in feeling. And I believe that in every reapect the union under which we now live haa been moat happy in ita reaulta. Ifl had gone, therefore, into the aubject, aa I originally intended, I ahould have atated fully my viewa upon it in all ita bearinga. And I ahould bave atated, aa I now atate, that if I had had to give my vote whether the connection between theae two provincea ahould remain, or whether it ahould be dia aolved, and we ahould go back to the state of separate existence in which we were be fore the union, I should have been found for one moat hoatile to a diaaolution of that union. (Hear, hear.) But circumatancea, over some of which thia House haa not con trol, while others are within our control, have led to a probable termination of thia debate at an earlier period than I had an ticipated, and I will not treapaaa on the patience of the Ho'-ise, at thia late hour, by detaining honorable membera with any lengthened remarka. In the few obaer vationa I shaU offer, I wUl confine myself to a reference to aome of the leading featurea of the acheme now before ua, I shall not, as many honorable gentlemen have done, go into lengthy quotationa of other men's opiniona, or comment on the effect of different ayatema of government in other countries. I will confine myaelf to what I consider, from the best means of in formation I can obtain, the probable effect and bearing of this proposed soheme upon ourselves. (Hear, hear.) I agree with many honorable gentleraen who have pre ceded me, when I aay that aince I firat gave attention to public matters, I have looked forward to the time when a mure intimate connection between theae British American Provinces would not only be deairable, but would become absolutely neceaaary. I look upon it as desirable in a military point of view, and in a coram jroial point of view. It muat be evident to any honorable gentleman who haa occupied a aeat in thia Houae — even for the short period that I have had the honor of a aeat here^that tho opinion of the Houae of late years has very materially changed with reference to the defences of the country. I am satisfied that we have, irrespective of party, become more alive to our duty in that reapect; aod tbat the people of thia country, acting through those who sit here as their repreaentativea, are prepared to take upon themaelvea their juat share of reaponsibility for the defence of these pro vinces, (Hear, hear.) And I look upon this acheme of union aa a moat in-.portant atep in that view ; becauae while we rely, as we do rely to a great extent, on the asaiat ance of the home Government for the de fence of this country, it must be evident to all of us that theae provincea, acting in concert with each other, and all acting in concert with the home Government, can organize a more effective ayatem of defence than -we could do if we remained aeparate and iaolated. (Hear, hear.) I believe thia queation should be considered chiefly from a commercial point of view- We muat neceasarily conaider the question in connection with the more inti mate commercial intercourae which it ia con templated will reault from the conatruction of the Intercolonial Railway. A new market for our commoditiea will be opened up by the reraoval of the barriera to trade which now exist between ua. Believing, aa I do, that our comraercial relations with our aiater provincea should be free and unrestricted, I am heartily in favor of the conatruction of this railway. After atating that upon these general principles Iara in iavor of the union of theae provincea, 1 may alao atate that had I ray choice, and were my vote to decide the queation, I would aay " give ua a Legislative union," because I believe it would have, for its effect, the bringing of all the colonists more immediately into contact and connec tion with each other, rendering our interests mueh more identical than by the Federal plan But I infer, from the speeches made on the floor of this House at the opening of 807 this debate, by honorable gentlemen who were delegates to the Conference held ia this city, that the tw ¦ schemes were dis cussed in that Conference — the Legislative and the Federal — and that the forraer was found to be impracticable. It is, therefore, not possible for us now to decide the question in favor of a legislative union. We have evidence before us that is satisfactory to my mind, that probably all of the other pro vinces would refuse to take part in a legiala tive union. The Honorable Attorney General Weat, in his speech at the opening of the debate, gave ua sufficient information on the point to convince the Houae tbat this quea tion had been fully diacuaaed in tbe Confer ence, and the legialative plan rejected, on account of ita being impracticable. For this reason, sir, believing that the choice before us is either to accept a Federal union or reject the proposal entirely, 1 give my assent to the present acheme without heaitation. (Hear, hear.) It ia brought aa one of the strongest arguments against this union that the Federal Govemment will be far more expensive than our present sys tem. That may be true to some extent; but my impreaaion is that it will not be found true to the extent represented. We must bear in mind that we have in each province a Government fully conatituted, with all the machinery necessary for carry ingon the buaineaa of government. Therefore the new machinery required would be very little, and would amount siraply to the local legialaturea for Upper and Lower Canada. Upon theae general principlea then, I muat aay that I shall give my adheaion to the scheme of union aubmitted to ua ; and aa was well remarked by the hon. member for Dun das (Mr. J. S. Ross), the language in which the scheme has been laid before us must prove very acceptable to all who are in favor of a union such as that proposed. The gentlemen composing the Conference could not have used language more acceptable to me than that in wbich the firat reaolution is, couched, except in the uae of the word "Federal," inatead of " Legialative." The resolution reads : — The beat interests and present and future pros perity of British North America wjU be promoted by a Federal union under the Crown of Great Britain, provided such a union can be effected on principlea just to the several provinces. Now, sir, I am prepared to say here, and I think I but echo the voice of every hon. gentleman present, that all the people aak is thatthe union be baaed upon principlea just to the several provinces. (Hear, hear.) We ask nothing more. Again, sir, the language employed in the third reaolution ia moat satisfactory : — In framing a Constitution for the General Government, the Conference, with a view to the perpetuation of the connection with the Mother Country, &c., to the promotion of the heat in terests of the people of these provincea, desire to follow the model of the British Conatitution, so far as our circumstancea will permit. Surely, air, we all agree that no better model can befound, or better ayatem of govemment followed, than that of the Britiah Conatitu tion. (Hear, hear.) One of the features of this scbeme that commends itself strongly to my approbation is the marked distinction between the system that is submitted to ua, and that which ia in exiatence in the neigh boring republic. 1 believe that to a great extent we may trace the unfortunate difficul ties that exiat in that country to the abaurd doctrine of atate righta. Inatead of their Central Govemment having, in the firat in atance, supreme power, and delegating cer tain powera to the local or state governments, the very reverae is the principle on whicii their Conatitution ia founded. Their local govemmenta poasesa the principal power, and have delegated certain powers to the General Government. In the scheme sub mitted to us, I am happy to observe that the principal and suprerae power ia placed in the handa of the General Governraent, and that the powera deputed to the local govern ments are of a limited character. (Hear, hear.) I am glad alao to obaerve that in the propoaed organization of the General Legis lature of the united provinces, that question which has so long agitated the people of Canada — representation by population — is in a fair way of being satiafactorily solved. It ia propoaed that in the General Legiala ture, or Houae of Coramona as it is to be called, each province shall be repreaented in accordance with ita population, thereby removing that which has been so long a source of agitation in Upper Canada, and of vexation to Lower Canada, and which has led to the discussion of the scheme now be fore the House. In reference to the organiz ation of the Legislative Council, I may say that I have always been found among those who opposed the introduction of the elective principle into the constitution of that body 808 in this province, and I, therefore, find no difficulty in giving my hearty assent to the change now proposed. I have always believed, and I still believe, that we could not expect two branches of the Legislature, owing their existence to the aarae aource, and being elected by the same class of votera, to work in harmony for any length of time. (Hear, hear.) It raay be called a retrograde move ment, yet I can heartily aaaent to it, becauae, in my opinion, it places thinga where they ahould have been left. In preaaing upon this Houae the adoption or rejection of theae resolutiona aa a whole, I believe the Govern ment aro actuated by the beat motives, and that it ia their duty to do so. But whilat I am prepared to give my vote in that direc tion, I am alao quite wiUing to admit the force of the objectiona urged by the Colonial Secretary in his despatch to the Governor General of the 3rd December lalt, in rela tion to the conatitution of the Upper House, ao far aa the limiting ofthe number of mem bera ia concerned. I for one, although there ia no doubt that theae reaolutiona will be paaaed by thia House preciaely in the form in which they have been aubmitted to ua, am quite content that the Imperial Parlia ment ahould make auch alterations in that, or any otber reapect, aa they conaider necea aary, and I ahall bow with very great aatis faction to auch amendmenta. (Hear, hear.) There are two or three queationa in connec tion with theae reaolutions upon which I deaire to offer a few remarks. One of them ia that of education. We have already had, in the courae of thia discusaion, a good deal aaid on thia aubject. I would aimply aay, aa one of those who gave effect by my vote to the present law of Upper Canada for the establiahment of aeparate schools, that in doing so I believed that I was according to the minority of one section of the province what I conceived tbe rainority of the other section were entitled to, thus doing justice to all. It givea me, therefore, great satisfac tion to obaerve the recognition in theae reao lutiona of tbe principle that the righta of the minoritiea, in each aection, with reapect to educational facilitiea, should be guaranteed. I confesa that if I were living in Lower Canada, I ahould not feel that I waa being juatly treated in being called upon to contribute by taxation to the support of achoola to which I could not con scientiously aend my children. (Hear, hear.) I have the aatisfaction of knowing that, after giving myvote upon the laat Separate School BUl, and goins back to my conatituents, they were fully satisfied with the explanation I gave them, and my action was endoraed by them. Another question that I look upon as of very great importance to these colonies, ia not dealt with in theae reaolutiona in that manner to which its importance entitles it. I refer to the management and aale of our Crown landa. I am very aorry to obaerve that tbey are to be confided to the control of the local legialaturea. I believe that if, in any one queation more than another, the Governraent of thia province have failed in their duty in times paat, it is in the manage ment of our Crown lands. The complaint I have to make ia that they have not made uae of thoae landa in establiahing a wiae and liberal ayatem of immigration, by offering them free to all who would come and settle upon them. It cannot but be humiliating to every peraon having a atake in thia province to obaerve the torrenta of immigration that pour from the Bi other fountry into toe neighboring republic; and eapecially ao when they aee them paaaing through the whole lenjj-th of Canada by multitudea to the Weatern Statea. (Hear, hear.) We have, in timea paat, failed to hold out auch induce menta aa would atop that tide of immigra tion from flowing past ua. I fear tjiat by leaving thoae landa in the handa ofthe local legislatures, the immigration queation will be dealt with, in future, in the same narrow apirit in whieh it haa been treated in times past. I would have been very highly pleased if I could look forward to the future with the hope that our Generil Legislature would adopt a large, enlightened, and liberal scheme of immigration, sending their agenta to all the European porta from whicb the largeat tide of immigration seta in, for the purpoae of explaining to the people the advantages they could derive from settling in these pro vincea. I am, therefore, very sorry to see that the delegates were obUged to make the arrangement they have made with reference to thir^ important question. (Hear, hear.) Now, sir, in reference to another of the queationa embraced in these reaolutiona, though not forming a part of the propoaed Conatitution, I am prepared to admit here that my opiniona have undergone a very material change since I firat came into this Houae. I refer to the conatruction of the Intercolonial Railway. I came here, in 1862, decidedly hoatile to our aaauming any portion of the expenae of constructing that road. I believed, at that time, that it 809 construction would be of no advantage to Canada; but the course of events has con vinced me that the time has now arrived when we should take upon ouraelves our fair share of the expense of constructing this important work. It cannot be satisfactory to any Canadian, on going to New Bruns wick or Nova Scotia, to find that he is a stranger in a strange country, and among a people who, though living so close to Canada, have no commercial intercourse with us. Although they are neighbors of ours, in one respect, yet they are neighbors with whom we have no intercourse. It is very desirable that the barriers to our intercourse should be removed, and the construction of the Intercolonial Railway is,' in my opinion, the only effectual means of removing them. Mr. Speaker, it has been argued by a great many of those who have taken part in debating this subject that this House is assuming for itself a power that it does uot, or ought not to possess, in disposing of the question without submitting it to the popular will. It is said that before these resolutions take effect an expression of public opinion should be had through a general election; Some of those honorable gentlemen who have taken this position have stated as a reason for advocat ing that course that the public mind was not yet properly informed as to the effect of the proposed change, and that, therefore, time should be given until public opinion is pre pared to decide upon it. But with a strange inconsistency those same gentlemen are flood ing this House with petitions from the elec tors, not asking for delay, not asking for fur ther time to consider the matter, but asking that the scheme be not adopted. They in effect show by their petitions that they have considered the subject — that they know all about it — that their opinions are fully form ed — and that the measure ougbt not to be adopted. Either the public mind is fully ripe for the adoption or rejection of the scheme, or else those electors are signing petitions without having sufficient inform ation on which to base the opinions they ex press. But, sir, there is such a thing as obtaining public opinion on almost any ques tion, and very correctly too, without going to the polls ; and, for my part, I find elections very inconvenient. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) I beUeve the majority of the electors of Upper Canada have read those resolutions, and understand tbem about as well as many members of this House ; and, 103 sir, we have every reason to believe that the sentiment of Upper Canada at least is largely in favor of the adoption of this scheme. (Hear, hear.) I took occasion to consult my constituents before coming to this House on the present occasion. I held meetings in the various municipalities in the county, and I believe, sir, according to the best of my ability, I did submit this scheme to the electors of that portion of the pro vince. I have heard a good deal said here about the importance of having the question submitted to a vote of the people. Mr. M. C. CAMERON— I would like to ask the gentleman whether he laid any figures before his people to ahew the differ ence between the coat of a Legislative and a Federal union. Unless he did that, the people were not in a position to express an opinion as to what was best for their interests. Mr. WALSH — I did not submit figures to shew the difference in cost between a Federal or Legislative union, for tbe simple reason tbat until the organization of the local governments is decided upon, it is not poaaible to give reliable figurea, and I therefore think the people aa competent to make calculations on thia aubject aa myaelf or my hon. friend, lawyer though he be. (Hear, hear.) I may aay, however, in anawer to the hon. gentleman, that I did state to my constituents that the reaolutions now under consideration place in tbe hands of the present Legislature the preparation of the constitutiona and the organization and compoaition of the local govemmenta of Upper and Lower Canada ; and that aa the Federal Govemment ia to pay an annual sub sidy of eighty cents per head of its popula tion to the respective provinces, for carrying on their local governments and the construc tion of local works, any sura required over and above that subsidy must necessarily be raised by direct taxation, and in that fact we have the strongest possible guarantee that in the arrangements made by this Legislature, and in the subsequent management of their domestic affairs by the local governments, the strictest simplicity and economy will be observed. (Hear, hear.) So much, Mr. Speaker, in answer to the question of the hon. gentleman. The difference between us on this question being that whilst we are both advocatea ofa legialative union, he will accept none other. I, believing that un attainable at preaent, am prepared to accept 810 the system now proposed, hoping that the experience of the people will soon induce them to agree to the abolition of the local governments, and the adoption of the legis lative system. (Hear, hear.) I may add — and I do ao with great peraonal aatiafaction — that the meetings which were held in my own county were largely in favor of the scbeme, and that resolutions approving of it were moved and seconded, in almost every instance, by persons of different political opinions. (Hear, hear.) I was going on to remark, that it is aaid by many members of this House that tbe scheme eould not be submitted to the people, becauae the Govern ment in aending the reaolutions to the mem bera of the Legialature marked them " Pri vate." Now, air, I managed to get over that difficulty without trouble. A copy of the reaolutiona waa sent 'to me, and as I was precluded from making use of them in that form without violating the confidence re posed in me, I turned to the newapaper veraion of the sanre reaolutiona, and finding it to be a verbatim copy of the original, when I attended my meetinga I read fro.n the newapaper and not from tbe private document itaelf (Hear, hear, and laughter.) I think other hon. gentlemen might have taken the aarae course with aafety to thera selves and profit to their constituenta. (Hear, hear.) Without wiahing to detain the Houae longer, I ahall content myaelf by simply expressing my regret tbat on a ques tion of auch paramount importance — a quea tion which towera in magnitude above all othera that have ever come before tbia Houae — a queation which not airaplyaffecta Canada, but the whole British North American Pro vinces — a question wbich does not only intereat us, but will be felt in ita influenoe upon future generationa — I have, I aay, to expreaa my deep regret that auch a queation ahould not have been treated apart from party feeling, party prejudicea, and a desire for party triumph. (Cheera.) Our object in conaidering thia aubject ahould not be to put one party out of office and another party in, but to determine what will moat conduce to the preaent and future proaperity of the British North American Provincea. (Hear, hear.) It ia a, matter of indifference to mo, ao far aa it affecta thia queation, who occupy the aeata on tbe Treasury benches. I look upon this question irrespective of party feelings. From the present position of these provincea, I think it ia our duty and our intereat alike to give effect to theae reaolu tions so far as we can do so. If they fail through the action of the Lower Provinces, we shall not be responsible. If we believe that the resolutions will be conducive to our interests, we are bound to sustain the hon. gentlemen who agreed to them as a basis of union. Believing this to be the proper course to be pursued, I shall, as I have already said, have great pleasure in giving them my support. (Hear, hear.) There is just one other remark that I may perhaps be permitted to refer to, which fell from the hon. member for North Waterloo (Mr. Bow man), that I decidedly dissent from. The hon. gentleman spoke ofthis scheme as one which, if adopted, ^would conduce to in dependence. I must object to that view being taken of it. If I thought that the adoption of the scheme now before us could in any respect have the effect of severing these colonics from the Blether Country, whatever the consequences might be, I should have no hesitation in giving my vote against it. I believe there is nothing more ardently to be desired — no greater glory attainable than for these coloniea remaining for all time to come, aa we are now, depen dencies of Great Britain. Hon. Mr. COCKBUR!^— The honorable member for North Waterloo referred to it as a means of maintaining our indeoendenoe againat the United States. BIr. WALSH — I do not deaire to mis represent the hon. gentleman, and I am glad to hear that I have misconceived the tenor of his remarks. Mr. Speaker, I have detained the Houae longer than I purposed doing when I roae. I have touched very briefly on aome of the general featurea of the scheme; but I have not occupied valuable time in quoting authorities, or in reading passages illustrative of the past political hiatory of hon. gentlemen on either aide. It mattera very little to me, in con aidering tbis queation, what certain hon. gentlemen thought twelve montha ago about representation by population or any other subject. This is a question to be decided by itaelf and upon ita own merits ; and be lieving that the adoption of this scheme, so far aa we in Canada are concerned, will be fraught with great benefits to ourselves as well aa to thoae who may come after ua, I repeat that it will afford me great pleaaure in giving my support to the resolutions. (Cheers, j BIr. GIBBS said— BIr Speaker, in rising at this late hour, I feel, in common with 811 many hon. members who have preceded me, that the debate has been sufficiently pro tracted, and should be brought to a close as speedily as poasible. Nevertheleas, as a member lately elected to represent a wealthy and populous constituency, largely engaged in commercial, manufacturing, and agricul tural pursuits, I deem it my duty to atate my viewa on the propoaed union of the Britiah North American Provinces, now under the consideration of this House. In my opinion, sir, the gent'emen who occupy the Treaaury bsnches deserve credit for the earnest and energetic manner in which they have applied themselves to carry out the pledges which they gave the countryduring the course of last summer. (Hear, hear.) I look 'upon it that the vote about to be taken is a foregone conclusion, and, fbr all practical purposes, might as well have been taken as soon as tho resolutiona had been read and spoken to by the Hon. Attorney General Weat. I have remarked, air, that almoat every hon. member that haa spoken haa expresaed himself as fovorable to a union of some kind or other with the Blaritime Provinces. When the delegates from the eastern provinces met at Charlotte town, Prince Edward Island, they contemplated a legisla tive union among themaelvea; but when in vited to viait Quebec for the purpoae of holding a conference with a view to a union of the whole of the colonies, the Federal principle waa auatituted for the Legialative, Lower Canada and the eaatern provincea voting aa a unit for it, while the members repre senting Canada West were divided, the Hon. Attorney General West preferring a Legia lative union, and the Hon. Preaident of the Council a Federal one. The aubject of " Union of the Provinces " has been looked upon with favor, not only by our own states men, who have of late years regarded it as a measure calculated to remove the difficulties whieh have surrounded the legislation of the country, but by leading statesmen of England as well, who view the proposal favorably, aa being the meana of building up a great nation, and alao of preserving monarchical institutions on thia continent. (Hear, hear.) BIr. Speaker, whatever may have been the pointa of difference which gave rise to the lengthened discussions of the Conference, there waa one upoa which, judging by the speeches of the delegates, and also froia the resolutions themselvea, there was perfect unaajmity — that of loyalty and attachment to the Throne of Great Britain. (Hear, hear.) One would have thought it unnecessary to incorporate such a sentiment in the reaolutions, yet the first of the series gives utterance to it and is thus expressed : — The heat interesta and present and future proa perity of British North America will be promoted by a Federfil union under the Crown of Great Britain. With regard to the future of thia proposed union, it is curious to note what is said and written in reference to it, some urging that its inevitable result will be a separation from our present happy connection with the Blether Country, and ultimate independence; while another class, equally confident, declares that it will lead to annexation with the United States. (Hear.) Whatever the ulti mate fate of such a union may be, it is con ceded by all parties that there esists a necest.ity for a, change of sorae kind in the politioal relations exiatfng between Upper and Lower Canada, and it ia gratifying to reflect that an expedient haa been deviaed for allaying the rancouroua party spirit that has been too frequently exhibited on the floor ofthis Houae. (Hear, hear.) We may congratulate ouraelves, sir, that while our republican neighbora are engaged in bloody atrife, one portion apilling its best blood in order to obtain a new Conatitution, we can diacuaa tbe propriety of making a change in our own, which haa not been iuaptly termed a " bloodleaa revolution," without let or hindrance, but on the contrary with the full conaent and authority of the power to which we owe afiegiance. (Hear.) The proviaions of this new Conatitution have been widely di.'^seminated, and in sorae aectiona thorough ly discuaaed. In the riding which I have the honor to repreaent, public attention waa drawn to Confederation during the recent election, and I am fully juatified in atating, that with a few exceptiona here and there, there were not to be found many diaaentienta to it. (Hear, hear.) It ia true that upon one or two occaaiona there were found lead ing men who took the ground that they did not think it desirable to enter into this union, but such instances were rare. One ofthese gentlemen, the reeve of one of the most iraportant townships in the riding, attended a meeting, where he met a large nuraber of the electors; but after -he had delivered his address, he could not find one to 812 respond to the sentiments he had expressed. (Hear, hear.) Another gentleman, an ex- reeve and an ex-member of Parliament — although he never had the honor of taking his seat in this House — also addressed a large meetin.ir, but with the same result as in the previous case. Tbe only opposition which was manifested throughout the con test was not to the scheme itself, but to points of detail. (Hear, hear.) Tbe Consti tution of the Legislative Council was the principal one referred to, my opponent contending that the Upper House sbould continue an elective body, as at present, instead of being a nominated Charaber, as it is proposed to make it. I can sustain the view taken by the Hon, President ofthe Council in his opening address the other evening, when he said he would not hesitate to go into any liberal constituency in Western Canada and obtain their sanction to this principle. (Hear, hear.) Such at all events was the result in South Ootario. I am free to admit that a change was not asked for in the constitution of the Legislative Council; but although the resolutions make the change, there is a feeling abroad in the country that on thia account the acheme as a whole should not be rejected. (Hear, hear.) Whenever a point waa attempted to be made againat me that I waa endeavoring, by my advocacy ofthe nominative principle, to build up an ariatocracy in thia country, and that the result would be the locking up ofthe lands ofthe province in the hands of a privileged clasa, I replied that auch had not been the ca?e in the paat, and that in a country like ours such could never be its results; and I further stated that the leader of the Reform party, the Hon. President of the CouncU, had himaelf stood almost alone on his side of the House in 1850, in resist ing the change from the nominative to the elective principle. My desire, sir, ia to see the union carried out only on a fair and equitable basis, and this, I think, is likely to be attained in the manner proposed for the assumption by the Central Government (at $25 per head) of the debta or portion of debta for which each province is now Uable. I regret, however, that so high a figure as 80c. per head has been fixed upou as the subsidy to the local legialaturea, for I fear the revenue will be ao large that taken in connection with the revenues derivable from local sources, the surplua, after defraying the expenaea of govemment, may induce that extravagance which has been so frequently deprecated in the paat, and whioh by this arrangement may be continued in the future. I have taken some pains, sir, to ascertain what will be the probable position of Upper Canada under the arrangement as proposed, and I find that its revenue and probable ex penditure wiU be aboui as follows : — EB-yENUB. Law fees $100,000 Municipal Loan Fund 180.000 U. C. Building Fund 30,000 Grammar School do 20,000 Crownlands 280,000 Education Fund 8,000 Public works 64,000 Subsidy at 80 cents 1,117,000 Other sources 32,000 $1,831,000 EXPENDITURE. Administration of juatice $2'75,00O Education - - - - 265,000 Literary and acientific inatitutiona. 10,000 Hoapitals and charities 43,000 Agricultural aocietiea 56,000 Gaols, from Building Fund 32,000 Roads and bridges 75,000 Expense of managing Crown lands 75,000 Interest on liabilities over asaeta.. 225,000 Interest on proportion of debt to he assumed, say 150,000 Balance available 625, OOQ $1,831,000 In thia statement I have not included the Blunicipality Fund, as the receipts are dis tributed the following year amongst, the municipalities. Estimating the expense of the Local Government at $150,000, we have a balance of $475,000 per annum for local purposes. I regard the subsidy as altogether too large, and sbaU hope to see it very materially reduced. (Hear, hear.) My hon. friend from North Ontario, upon the hypo thesis that the Blaritime Provinces con tribute one-fifth of the revenue of the pro posed Confederacy, and the balance by the Canadas, in the relative proportion of two doUars by Upper Canada to one dollar by Lower Canada, founds an argument thereon, shewing that each additional representative gained for Upper Canada will cost $17,000. Now, Mr. Speaker, I apprehend that when the union is accomplished and the duties equalized, this seeming objection will, to some extent at least, be removed, for it is well known that the Blaritime Provinces consume much more largely of imported 813 goods, per head, than we do. (Hear.) But let this principle be extended to county and township matters, and it would necessitate appropriations to the wealthier townships, in the proportion each contributed to the revenue ofthe county — a principle which has never been contended for, and facts wUl go to show that it is seldom done even upon popu lation, as is proposed by this scheme. But as it was necessary to establish some basis for contributing to the expenses of the local governments, without compelling them to resort to direct taxation, I think the principle adopted, that of population, is not unjust. (Hear, hear.) Again, it is argued that as Canada West contributes in the pro portion already alluded to, that in the pay ment of subsidies she will contribute more than her fair proportion in the proposed Confederacy. To this I reply, if the hypo thesis that the proportion which Upper and Lower Canada respectively contribute to the general revenue be correct, and that the subsidy should be based upon revenue and not population, then undoubtedly the argu ment is a good one. But, sir, let us see if the proposed arrangement is not a great improvement on the present method of dis tributing the public funds. It is well known, sir, that the complaint which Upper Canada has made in t'ae past was that the appropri ations were made, not upon revenue, nor even according to population, but in utter disre gard of both. Under the system which has hitherto prevailed for dividing money grants, of the proposed subsidy to the two Canadas ($2,005,408, or 80 cts. per head), Upper Canada would have re ceived one-half $1,002,701 Whereas, according to popu lation 1,116,872 Difference in favor of the proposed system over the old one ? 114,171 As the moneys have been distributed equally in the past between Upper and Lower Ca nada, I maintain that the balance of the public debt, say $5,000,000, to be appor tioned between them, should be divided in the same way, and not, as proposed by the Hon. Finance Minister, on population. But it is said the scheme will lead to extrava gance. I had hoped, BIr. Speaker, that an alliance with the frugal and thrifty pop ulation of the eastern provinces would in duce the very opposite, and lead to greater economy in the public expenditure thau we bave had in the past. (Hear, hear.) With reference, air, to the coat of the local gov ernments, that subject has been left in the bands of the local legislatures entirely, the resolutions shewing whence their in come shall be derived, and what the subsidy shall be without compelling a resort to direct taxation. I claim for this scheme, Mr. Speaker, that it will give us national im portance. (Hear.) But here again it is objected that to obtain this we must have a vast population. When the colonies now forming a portion of the American union severed the connection from the parcntstate, their population was .set down at 2,5li0,d00, and although an impression has very gener ally obtained that they have increaaed in population faater than we have, an examina tion into the facts shows that such is not the case — for in 1860 their population reached 30,000,000, an increase of 1,200 per cent, while oura in the same period had increased from 145,000 in 1784, to 3,000,000 in 1861, or over 2,300 per cent. (Hear.) Confederation, air, would give us nationality — I speak of Britiah nationality — a nation created from tho fragmentary portiona of the provinoes of Britain on this continent, but atill retaining ita allegiance to the Britiah Crown. Then, air, it is claimed that the commercial advantages which "^iiiay ariae from Confederation of the provinces can as readily be obtained by a Legialative aa a Federal union. Thia ia admitted; but aa that is not obtainable, and aa a union would remove the barriers to commercial inter course and foster the trade between the colonies (each of which now effects more exchanges with the United States than with all the rest of the provinces), it is deairable that the union should take place. (Hear.) This leads me, sir, to remark upon the probable abrogation ofthe Reciprocity treaty. The country will be glad to know, from the announcement made to the House on Blon day last, that the Blinistry if alive to the importance of entering into immediate ne, gotiationa, through the Engliah Government, with that of the United Statea, for the renewal of thia treaty. (Hear, hear.) I am not of the number who believe that the advantages accruing from this treaty have been all on the side of Canada; for, from the statementa lately publiahed, it appeara that the whole trade of 1854 waa... $24,000,000 And in 1868 43,000,000 An increase in ten years of 814 nearly 180 per cent $19,000,000 The exports from Canada to the United States amounted in ten years to $150,000,000 Imports into Canada in do.... 195,000,000 $45,000,000 The dift'erence in favor of the United States being paid in gold. In 1854 free goods imported into Canada from the United States amounted to S 2,000,000 And in 1863 19,000,000 Increase in ten years 850 per ct. §17,000,000 I do not fear, air, but that the treaty will be renewed ; enlightened counsels will prevail, 'and, with the better feeling existing between the two countriea, the subject will be taken up in a proper apirit, and legialated upon accordingly. (Hear.) The construction of the Intercolonial Railway ia said to be a necessity of the proposed union, and without it there can be no union except in name. Calculations have been made which show that tlya road cannot be used for carrying- heavy merchandise at remunerative ratea, more especially flour, whicii it haa been ahown would co-^t $2,25 per barrel from Toronto to Halifax, at two centa per ton per mile. The Grand Trunk Railway now car ries flour from Toronto to Blontreal for 'iS centa per barrel during winter, and at the same rate a barrel of flour would cost 51.22. If thia could be done, the difference in coat between winter rates and ahipping viathe St. Lawrence in summer, at 85 centa per b.arrel, would be made up in a saving of storage, intereat, and insurance. Then there is the military aspect of the subject, which haa already been thoroughly discussed. I con tend, sir, that union with the Blaritime Provinces not only alliea ua more cloaely to them and to each other, but also to that power which alone could render ua aid whenever subjected to attack ; and, regarded liora thia point of view, thia railroad ia said fo be a necessity. Lord Durham in hia report said : — An union for common defence againat foreign -enemies is the national bond of connection that holds together the great communities of the -world, and between no parts of any kingdom or state did the necessity exist of such a union more obviously than between the whole of theae colonies. (Hear, hear.) In conclu=ion ; sir, if we reject the propoaed union, what ia offered aa a substitute 'j' In the abaence of anything better which will aettle our exiating diffi culties, shall we reject the opportunity now presented and that may never recur ? Rather let us, as members of tbe same family, unite for weal or for woe. ,By it we secure enlarged commercial intercourse, greater security in case of attack, a remedy for the existing dif ficulties between Upper and Lower Canada, and also render more lasting the connection now existing with the Bdother Country. (Hear.) While in favor of this measure, but believing that it should be submitted for the approval of those who are to be affected by the contemplated change, I shall feel it to be my duty in the first instance to vote against the "previoua queation," in order that auch an amendment may be put, reaerv- ing tbe right to vote for the amendment of the hon. member for Peel, when that shall come up for discuaaion, ita object being to subuvit the question for popular aanction. (Cheers.) If thia, however, shall fail, I ahall vote, BIr. Speaker, for the resolution now in your hands. The oebate waa then adjourned. Thursday, March 9, 1885! BIr. D. ford JONES resumed the adjourned debate. Ee said — I rise, BIr. .Speaker, to addresa the House on tho reao lutiona which you hold in your hand in favor 'of a Confederation of all the Provincea of Britiah North America. I feel tbat the question ia one involving iuoh very great intereata, involving a change in the whole Conatitution of the country, and involving conaequencea which may plunge us into great difficulties, or which may have tho very opposite effect — that I feel great diffidence and embarrassment in approaching it. But 1 feel it. is a duty I owe to myself and to tbose who sent mo here, that I should expreaa my opiniona oo thia propoaed union, beforo I record my vote on the reaolutiona now before the Ilouse. I desire to do this, because I cannot give my approval to the whole acheme, aome of ita detaila being auch that I cannot aupport them. 815 Hon. Mr. HOLTON— Hear, hear. Mr. JONES— The way in which I look at thia queation do:s not at all depend on whether this hon. gentleman or that hon. gentleman may be at tbe head of affaira in thia country ; or whether we may have a Coalition Govemment or a purely party Government ; but I consider we ahould look at the sheme on its own merits, and deal with it aa a whole, giving a fair aud square vote on tbe reaolutiona aa a whole. (Hear, hear.) I think, therefore, that fhe courae which has been taken by the Government to obtain such a vote is the wise and honest course. (Hear, hear.) I think they deserve credit for the atep they have taken with a view to bringing thia debate to a cloae. We have been debating thia question day after day for a number of weeks, and I must say that the opposition given by hon. gentle men on the other side haa been of a very factioua character ; time after time tbey have risen to make motiona on this, that, and the other thing, keeping the House from addreaaing itself to the matter really under debate, and protracting unneceaaarily the deciaion ofthe queation. Only the night beforo laat, when an hon. gentleman had riaen for the purpoae of addreaaing the Houae, they cried out that it waa too late, and called for an adjourment of the debate ; and yet, when that waa agreed to, they waated two or three houra in moving addi- tiona to t'nat motion for adjournraent. Thia waa done, too, by hon. geutiemen who were well converaant with the rulea of thia Houae, and who must have known that theae motions were not in order. At raidnight they were too tired to allow the debate to go on, and yet they kept the Houae aitting after that till three in the morning, diacussing mere pointa of order. (Hear, hear.) Th: t haa been the course puraued by hon. gentle men opposite. And wbat, on the other hand, haa been tho courae pursued by the Admin istration ? Did they not put a motion on the notice paper — a motion which the factiouaness of hon. gentlemen oppoaite prevented from being put to the vote — to give further time for the diacusaion of this queation, by ready ing that inatead of ita being taken up at half-paat seven, it should be taken up at three, the whole time of the House being devoted to it ? Wo have been debating the queation for weeka, and though hon, gentle men opposite have been in their plaoea, they have not proposed a single amendment. And yet, after this had gone on for such a length of time, so soon as the " previous question " is moved, those hon. gentlemen get up and cry out that they are gagged. Even after the House began to discuaa the question at three o'clock, theae hon, gentlemen day af'er day waated fhe time by getting in one side wind after another, in order to create delay, to see if something might not turn up against the scheme. Now, at last, thoy have got aomething. Something has turned up in New Brunawick, and I suppose they will now permit us to come to a vote. (Hear, hear.) In diacuaaing this question, I do not see any necesaity for going back eight or ten years to the apeechea of hon. members. I do not see why lengthy extracts should be read to shew that the hon. member for Montmorency opposed the union ofthe provinces in li58, or that the hon. member for Hochelaga, at that time, was in favor of it. I do not see what that bas to do with the question before us. It is now submitted in a practical form for our deciaion, and what we have to do ia to give a square vote, yea or nay, that we areio favor ot this Confederation, or that we are against it. Our circumstances have changed within the laat few years ; but it ia not on thataccountmerely tbat I now aupport thia union. I have alwaya, upon every occa sion, on the hustinga, at public meetinga and elaewhere, advocated a union of the British North American Provincea ; and were our relationa with the United States in the sarae favorable form that exiated aome five or aix yeara aince, I would still give my support to a union. It is, therefore, air, not becauae I think there ia a great preaent neceaaity for the scheme being brought to a speedy conclusion that I now support it. That present necessity, however, now exists, and I do not see why other hon. gentlemen, after a lapse of five or six years, wben times bave changed, and a greater urgency has arisen for such a union, should not be allowed to change their minds. " Wise men change their minda ; fools have no minda to cha.ige," (Hear, hear.) Shortly before the meeting of thia House, I advertised that I would hold a aeriea of meetinga in the riding of South Leeda, for the purpoae of placing my viewa upon this queation before my conati tuenta, and to see whether their views accorded with my own ; men of all shades of politics were requested to attend theae meetinga, and they were very numerously and reapectably attended, not only by thoae who supported' me, but alao by thoae who were my most bitter opponents at the last 816 election. And at all of those meetings, aome aix or seven, not a single voice was raised againat the union of theae provincea with the Provinces of Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, Newfoundland, and Prince Ed ward Island. All appeared to think auch a union advisable and necessary, not only for commercial purposes, but because it would tend to strengthen the ties that bound- us to the Mother Country. It has been said that this union has never been before the people, that it has never been a test question at the polls. Now, sir, so long ago as the year 1826, thia union waa advocated by Sir John Beverley Robinson, one ofthe moat able men thia country haa ever produced ; subsequently, on different occasions, it waa adverted to by Lord Durham in hia celebrated report — alao by the Britiah American League, preaided over by the late lamented Hon. Geo. Moeeatt of Blontreal, and latterly in that despatch to the home Government in October, 1858, over the aignaturea of the Hon. Meaars. Cartier, Galt and Ross. Why action was not taken upon tbat despatch, I cannot say ; I leave tbia matter in the handa of those who at that time adminiatered the affairs of this country, and who are responsible for the courae they puraued in allowing it to be dropped. Sir, the union of theae provinces would, in my humble opinion, be of the very greateat advantage to ua in many pointa. It would strengthen, and not weaken, as has been said by its opponenta, the ties tbat bind us to the Mother Country. It would give ua a atandiog in the eyea of the world. Inatead of being several small, disjointed and fragmentary pro vincea, aa waa ao ably expreaaed in the Speech from the Throne, we would form one great nationality, with a population to begin with of nearly 4,000.000 people, which would place ua among the liat of the firat countriea ofthe world. (Hear, hear.) It would tend to atrengthen our aecuritiea both bere and in the Blether Country. Instead ofour atocka and our bonda being quotedaaif by accident on the Stock Exchange in London, they would be looked for daily, and sought after. It would give us an increased market for our produce and our manufactures, and it would tend more than anything else to cause a tide of emigration to flow to our shorea. (Hear, hear.) Now the emigrant in coming to Araerica ia preplexed to know to which of the different provincea he ahall go, and when be apeaka of going to America, the only placo he thinka of ia New York. It would create a daily line of steamships from the different points of Europe to Halifax, the nearest point aud shortest sea voyage to this country — and with the Intercolo nial Railway .to bring the emigrant directly through to Canada, who will say that we' shall not have a tide of emigration to our ahorea auch as we can scarcely imagine? The only emigration we now have is that induced to come by friends who have made this country a home and have prospered. These, air, are the reasons, from a political point of view, why I support the resolutions now in your hand. And, sir, in speaking in a commercial sense, and as a commercial man, they shall also have my full and hearty support. (Hear, hear.) Does any one pretend to say that by the addition of nearly a million of inhabitants to these provinces, a thrifty and intelligent people, that this country will not be made more prosperous ? Does any one pretend to say, that by taking away the barriers that exist to trade, with a million of people living close alongside of ua, that this country will not be advanced ? Will we not have largely-increaaed marketa for our manufac turea when those hostile tariffs that now meet us at every port in the Maritime Provinces, restricting our trade with them, are removed '! Will we not have an in creased market for our produce when we are linked together by the Intercolonial Railroad, and when a free interchange of all our commoditiea exiats ? Can we remain, as at present, without any highway of our own to the Atlantic, for ingress or egress, for five months of the year ? (Hear, hear.) When we see tbe hostility existing towards us, and forcibly shown towards us, by the press, the people, and the Govern ment of the United Statea, by the enforce ment ofthe obnoxious passport system, by the notice of the abrogation of the Recipro city treaty, by the annuUing of the bonding syatem, by the notice given to the Govern ment of Great Britain that the treaty regarding armed veaaels on our lakes is to be done away with — when our farmers can not send their produce for five months of the year to a market ; when our merchants, for the same period, cannot get their stocks of merchandise for the supply of the wants of the country; when we are dependent on tbe generosity of a foreign country even for the paaaage of oiir mails to Old England — when that is our position, shall it be said that this union with the Lower 8i7 Provinces is uot desirable, and that we shall not, as soon as possible, have a railroad across our territory to the Atlantic seaboard, to Halifax, one of the best harbors in the world ? Shall we be indebted, be subservient to, be at the mercy of a foreign country for our very existence ? (Hear, hear.) Sir, shall we remain dependent upon that country for all these things, or shall we not rather put our own shoulders to the wheel, throwing off our supineness and inertia, and by building the Intercolonial Railway, provide an outlet for ourselves ? (Hear, hear.) And simultaneously with the conatruction of that great work, I hold that for the benefit of the commercial interests' of the country we ought to enlarge and deepen our canals. (Hear, hear.) I desire now to read a Minute of the Executive Council, issued by the Sandpield Macdonald-Dorion Gov ernment, under date 19th February, 1861. It is as follows : — Although no formal action, indicative of the strength of the party hostile to the continuance ofthe Reciprocity treaty, haa yet taken place, information of an authentic character, as to the opiniona and purpoaes of influential public men in the United Statea, haa forced upon the com mittee the conviction that there is i umineut dan ger of ita apeedy abrogation, unleaa prompt and vigorous steps be taken by Her Majesty'a Im perial adviaera to avert what wotild be generally regarded by the people of Canada aa a great calamity. And in another place it is stated : — Under the beneficent operation of the ayatem of aelf-goveinment, which the later policy of the Mother Country has accorded to Canada, in com mon with the other colonies poaaesaing repreaent ative institutiona, combined with the advantagea secured hy the Reciprocity treaty of an unre- atricted commerce with our neareat neighbors in the natural productiona of the two countriea, all agitation for organic changea haa ceaaed, all dissatisfaction with the existing political relations of the province haa wholly diaappeared. From this Minute it appeara to have been the opinion of the Sandfield MacDOn- ald-Dorion Government that the abroga tion of the Reciprocity treaty would pro bably be a great calamity to this coun try. But I am not of that opinion, and I believe that the people of this country will never be so reduced as to go on their knees to pray the Government of the United States to continufe the treaty. (Hear, hear.) Indeed, for the past year or two, in consequence of the difference in the 104 currency between the two countries, we have felt almost as though that treaty had been put an end to already. In consequence of the state of the currency, many of the best interests of this country have been injured, the mining interest ofthe province has been put a stop to, and the lumbering intereat, one of the moat important of our many important interests, crippled and paralysed. (Hear.) What much greater injury can befall us, by the abrogation of the Reciprocity treaty, than that we now suffer through the de rangement of the currency ? Instead of the repeal ot the Reciprocity treaty being a great calamity, it will lead to an agitation for organic changes which cannot fail to be of the greatest advantagea to the future proaperity of the country. For my part I do not at all like the idea of a document of that kind, emanating from our Canadian Govern ment, falling into the hands ofthe American people, and leading them to believe thIt in our estimation the repeal by them of the Reciprocity treaty would be calamitous to thia country. (Hear, hear.) I repeat that I do not believe that the abrogation of that treaty will eventually be detrimental to our interests. It is true that we may suffer for four or five years, and suffer greatly, but we will be thrown upon our own resoutces, and ultimately become strong and self-reliant. Our merchants will no longer be denied an outlet to the ocean during five or .six months in the year, except by the favor or forbearance ofour Yankee neighbors. Let us put our hands into our pockets to build this Inter colonial Railway, and we will be opening a way to the ocean to our merchants and our farmers for shipping their products over their own territory. And when we are in that position, we sball be able to say to the people of the United States — " You shall no longer be allowed to participate in the bene fits of our fisheries — we will close the naviga tion of our canals against you — and we will cease to permit, without the payment of a heavy duty, the importation into this country of your coarse grains for the supply of our diatillers and brewers.'' And, air, when it is stated that the importations of these grains have amounted to nearly two millions of bushels annually, it will be seen that after all the reciprocity is not altogether on one aide. (Hear, hear,) I think that they will then acknowledge it wiU be better for them to be on more friendly terma with thia pro vince, seeing that we control the navigatibn of the Welland and St. Lawrence canals, the 818 natural outlet for the products of the Western States, which m 1863 amounted to the enormous quantity of five hundred atid twenty million bushels of grain — they will be dependent upon us, inatead of our relying upon them. Compared with the St. Lawrence navigation the Erie canal ia but a ditch, and it ia cloaed by tbe froat earlier in the season than our lake and river navigation. Whefi all these advantages which we enjoy are considered, the people of the United States will see how much better itis to live on terms of friendahip aLd amity with us, inatead of, to uae a vulgar but forcible phraae, " cutting off their noae to apite their face." (Hear, hear.) Vv'ith regard to the propoaed reaolu tiona, I atated at the ouiaet that there were portiona of tho acheme to which I objected, and 1 may now, air, be allowed briefiy to advert to them. I would prefer that the whole power was concentrated uuder one head by 8»l.egisktive union, rather than a Federal union. Ifear that tho machineiy will be com- plex,and thatwewill find, under the proposed system, that the expenses of the Government will be much greater than if we had one General Government without these additions of local legislaturea for each of the provincea. (Hear, hear.) But 1 ara happy to aay that the propoaed Federal ayatem is not a reflex ofthe old Federal union of the United Statea. Notwithatanding aome honorable gentlemen have praiaed the lederal aystem in the Statea aa worthy of imitation, still I thiuk our propoaed aystem much to be preferred. It diff'era in thia — the United Statea Federal syatem waa formed from a number of sov ereign atates, with sovereign powers, dele gating to a central power juat aa much or aa little of their power aa they choae ; thereby the doctrine of state rights obtained, and, as we have seen within the laat four yeara, haa been the cauae of bloodahed and civil war, it may be to the probable deatruction of that Federal union. Our caae ia exactly the reverse. Inatead ofthe Central Government receiving its power from the diflerent pro vinces, it gives to those piovinces just as much or as little aa it chooaea. Hear what the 45th reaolution aays — ¦' In regard to all subjects in which jurisdiction belongs to both the general and local legislatures, the laws of the General Parliament shall control and supersede those made by the local le gislaturea, and the latter sball be void so far as inconsistent with the former.'' This places the whole control in the handa of the General Government, making the union as nearly legislative as the circumstances of the various provinces would admit. So much is this the caso that the hon. member for Hochelaga fears that it would eventually result in a legislative union — a re.^ult to my mind most devoutly to be desired. ( Hear, hear.) There are two or three more of the points of the resolutions to which I have objection. The public lands are placed at the disposal of the local legislatures; immi gration also is in the hands of the local le gislatures, and the seacoast fisheries are in the hands of the local legislatures. These are matters common to the whole, and should, tor many reasons, be under the control ofthe General Government. These various interests, however, are all covered by the 45th resolu tion of the Conference wbich I have just read, and which declares that when con sistent with the welfare of the General Government, their control wUl be taken from the local legislatures. (Hear, bear.) I have, as briefly as poaaible, ahewn that in my opinion , in our political and our commercial relations we would be benefited by the union of Canada with the Maritime Provincea. I have alao adverted briefiy to the objections which I hold to the proposed mode of carrying out the union. I shall now endeavor to show that as a means of defence it is highly desir able. If there is one thing more desirable than another, it is to have the whole forces of the couutry under one governing power. How might it fare with us, in caae of war or invasion, wit'h the provincea diaunited ? Objectiona could now be made againat the withdrawal of a portion of the militia from one province to the others, without the consent of the govemment of that province, and before they could be brought into the field, valuable time would be lost, red-tapeism would stand in the way, and the delay might be dangeroua. (Hear, hear.) By beiug united and controlled under one head, troops could be thrown upon any point attacked, at a moment's notice. Objections have been made by hon. gentlemen to any expenditure for the purpose of building tortificatioLS, at pro per points, for the defence of the countiy ; but 1 am satisfied there is no reasonable sum that may be required that will be grudged by the people of Canada ; for if there is any purpoae for which they will contribute cheer fully, it is for the defence of their country, and to continue the connection and cement the tie that binds us to the Mother Country. 819 I^Hear, hear.) It has been also stated that ve could not defend ourselves against an iverwhelming power such as the United States. Time was when we did defend our selves, and that suceessfuUy ; and if the time should ever come again, the people of Canada md ofthe Maritime Provinces will not be Pound backward to defend everything they h Id aacred and moat dear. (Hear, hear) It baa alao been said that we should keep a strict neutrality; in fact that our neutrality should be guaranteed by England, France and tbe United Siatea, in case war should unfortunately take place between them. But auch an idea is too absurd to be considered for a moment. Would the people of this country submit to such an arrangement even if atterapted to be carried out ? AV^ould we allow England, if forced to go to war with the United Statea, want the aaaiatance other Canadian subjects ? Could we restrain the people of Canada from doing their duty, when they saw the Blether Country battling with her foes ? If I thought such would be the case, I ahould deny my country, for we should be held up to the scorn and deriaion of the world. (Hoar, hear.) Oo the question of our defencea, I deaire to read an extract from the report of Col. Jervois, the abh engineer sent out to report upon the practicability of defending Canada against attack : — The question appears tobe whether the British force now in Canada ahall be withdrawn in order to avoid the risk of ita defeat, or whether the neceasary measure shall be taken to enable that force to be of use for the defe ice of the country. The aum required for the construction of the propoaed worka and armamenta at Montreal and Quebec would only be ahout one year'a expense ofthe regular force we now maintain iu Canada. It ia a deluaion to suppose that force can he of any use for the defence of the couutry, without fortificationa to compenaate for the comparative amallneaa of its numbers. Even when aided by the whole of the local militia that could at pre sent be made available, it would, in the event of war, be obliged to retreat before the superior numbers by which it would be attacked, and it would be fortunate if it succeeded in embarking at Quebec, and putting to sea without serious defeat. On the other hand, if the worka uow recom mended be constructed, the vital points of the country could be defended, and the regular army would become a nucleua and aupport, round which the people of Can-ada would rally to reaiat aggresaion, and to preaerve that connection with the Mother Country which their loyalty, their interests, and their love of true freedom alike make thera deairous to maintain. Such is the report of Col. Jeevois, one of the ablest men ou those subjects in the En glish service, and I think it can with greater reason be relied upon than all the mere asser tions of hon. members, who are not supposed to know much, if anything at all, upon a sub ject which they have never made a study, and upon which they have had no experience whatever. (Hear, hear.) Sir J. Walsh also, a few days since, in a speech upon an Address to Her Majesty for papera and cor respondence with the American Government in relation to the Reciprocity treaty, and the notice for a finality of the treaty reatricting the number of armed steamera upon our inland waters, spoke thus : — There might be aome hon. gentlemen who would contemplate, without ahame or regret, the total and entire aeverance of the connection between England aud Canada, and who would aay that thia country would get rid thereby ofa aource of muoh embarrassment, expense and trouble. He would, however, tell those hon. gentlemen that Great Britain could not, if she would, cut Canada adrift. Aa long aa Canada retained her deaire to be connected with this country — aa long aa Canada preserved her spirit and her reaolution to be independeutof .^.merica, so long would England be bound by her honor, by her interests, and by every motive that could instigate a generous or patriotic nation, to sus tain, protect and vindicate : he rights of Canada, and to guard her, whether as an ally or a depen dency, against the aggressions of the United States ; it was impossible for England to ahrink from the obligation. The day might eome when the Chancellor ofthe Exchequer would come down, and in happy phaae and -vith mellifluous eloquence, congratulate the House upon having emancipated itself from a source of military expenditure. He might felicitate the House that Birmingham was aending admirably finiahed Armatrong and ^Whit- worth guna to arm the new naval forces of America ou the Canadian lakes. He might congratulate the House that Birmingham was sending out a plenti ful supply of fetters and handcuffs to be used in coercing the refractory Americana. The right hon. gentleman mi^ht, at the same time, be able to congratulate the House upon a vast amount of commercial proaperity, and announce that.he waa able to reduce the income tax a penny or two pence on the, pound. .But if ever, that day ahould come, and if ever that apeech were made, the whole world would; observe that_ the old Bnglishoak ,waa not; only ^.withered in its limbs, but waa 'rotten at ita heart. There was, in fact, no escape from the obligation which bound Great Britain, Dy every tie of national honor and inter est, to, maintain and defend Canada. The ques tion was not one merely between England and Canada, but was one between England an^ thg United States. It appeared to him that the notice given by the American Government.waa an act of auch unmistakable hostility, that it almost ,820 amounted to a declaration of war, and at a much earlier period of our hiatory, it would have been ao regarded. When auch viewa are held in England, when so atrong a deaire ia manifeated in Canada to maintain our conneotiDU with England, and to remain under tbe abeltering folda of tbat flag we love ao well, ahall it be aaid that we have not the apirit left to digfend ourselves ? I know, sir, that the people of Canada will not bebackward, should ever that time arrive. I feel that there is some of the spirit of 1812 still left among ua. I am convinced that the blood of thoae men who left the United Statea, when they gained their independence, and who gave up all in order to live under the protection of the laws of Old England — the blood ofthose old U. E. LoyaUsts, I say, still courses through our veins. (Hear.) Sir, I trust that this union may be consummated, in order that British power on this continent may be consolidated, our connection with the Mother Country cemented and strengthened, and that under this union this country may be made a happy home for hundreds of thouaanda of emigranta from the Blether Country — a happy and contented home for all now living here, and for our children and children'a children for generations to come. (Hear, hear, and CD.GPl'S "^ BIr. CARTWRIGHT, said— Mr. Speak er, the turn which this debate has aaaumed of late ia somewhat remarkable. Up to a veiy recent period, hon. gentlemen opposite have dwelt chiefly on the extreme — 1 think they even aaid the indecent — haste with which this project has been pushed forward. They have asserted that this scheme was the sole, the only bond of union between the members of the present Ministry, and fur ther, tbat ao raah, ao inconaiderate was tbeir eagerneas to effect theii end at any cost, that they have serioualy compromiaed our interests by undue concessions to the remain ing provinces, and notably to Newfoundland and New Brunswick. Latterly, however, the question has assumed a new and different phase. It has been discovered that ao far from being a bond of, union, the project of Confederation ia a mere pretext, a blind to cover their predetermination to maintain their poaition at all hazards. Now, sir, paas ing over the obvious inconsistency of these contradictory accuaations, paaaing over the abai^rdity of Calling the Confederation the sole bond of union, and yet a sham to cover that union, I shall bave a few words to say as to the reasons whioh induce(^ me, in com mon with a great majority of this House, and I believe with a great majority of the people of this country, to support honorable gentlemen on the Treasury benchea, notonly as regards the project we are now diacuss ing, but as to their general policy in effecting the extraordinary fusion of parties which took place last summer. Sir, it is idle to talk of that step as if those honorable gentlemen were alone responsible for their conduct on that occaaion. What they did was done with the full know ledge and conaent of their supporters, and reflects on our honor, if wrong, quite as much as on theirs. But, sir, I am very far indeed from admitting that we were wrong. [ think the reasona whioh influenced ua then were strong enough to justify us fully ; those reasons are tenfold stronger now. To understand them, Mr. Speaker, we need only glance at the parliamentary history of the last few years, and then ask ourselves whether any languai^e is too strong, any sacrifice too great, to put an end to the state of things which prevailed throughout that period. But first, sir, let me pause to deal with the charge of undue haste. Doubtless the rapidity with whioh these negotiations have advanced waa as remarkable aa it was unexpected. I believe there is hardly an instance in which a political project of such magnitude and delicacy has made such astonishing progress in so short a time; and so far from holding it an objection, so far from allowing that this is any evidence that the coun try has been taken by surprise in assenting to this scheme, I hold that it is, on the con trary, the best possible omen of its ultimate success, no matter what temporary checks it may encounter, because it shows conclusively not only how zealously and honestly Blinis ters have devoted themselves to the task of carrying it into effect, but, which I think of even more importance, because it proves how powerfully the events of the last few years have contributed to mature men's views on this subject, and shows that, so far as this province is concerned, my honorable friends are but aiding to carry out a foregone conclusion — a conclusion long since arrived at by every man among us who desires to maintain our independence or our connection with the British Crown; that in this, or some such scheme as this, lies our best, if not our only hope of escaping absorption into the great republic which adjoins us. Sir, this is an argument whioh perhaps has more weight with me than -with some hon. 821 gentlemen before me. It may be that there are some even here who are secretly dazzled by the magnificent viaion, so dear to Ameri can statesmen, of an empire which shall spread from sea to sea, and unite every scattered state and province from the Gulf of Mexico to Hudson's Bay under one law and one rule. Sir, I can understand the fascination which such an idea can exercise ; I can even sympathise with it to some extent ; and it is just because I do under stand it that I am prepared to oppose it to the utmost, believing that in the long run the eatabUshment of a power so gigantic could not fail to be fraught with the greatest misfortunes to thoae who might live under it, if not to the whole human race. And now, air, to return to my subject, I would like to take a rapid glance at the perils from which we have but lately eacaped ; and in so doing, I shall apeak only of those of which I have myself been cognizant in my own parliamentary career, brief though it is ; and I appeal again to the consciousness of every honor able gentleman, whether there ia anything in the events of the paat two aeaaiona of which we have much reason to feel proud, save, perhapa, their cloaing scene ? What was our position, Blr. Speaker ; what was that position which some honorable gentle men have the hardihood to affect to regret ? Two dissolutions granted (though in the latter case the Royal prerogative was not exerciaed); three changea of Miniatry within the space of a aingle twelvemonth ; the fate of cabineta dependant on the vote of a single capricious or unprincipled individual, in a House of 130 members"; a deficient revenue and a sinking credit ; all useful legislation at a stand-still — these, "sir, were circumstances which might well have filled us with appre hension, had they occurred in a time of profound peace ; but which, sir, coming, as they did, at a period when we are menaced with the gravest danger which can befall a free people, would have argued us deaf and blind to every lesaon which the miafortunea of our neighbora ought to teach ua, had we not embraced the very earlieat opportunity to extricate ouraelvea from such a position ; and the wonder to me is not that our statesmen should have shown themselves wilUng to bury their private grudges and paltry personal animosities, but rather that we could have been infatuated enough to permit such a state of things to continue at such a crisis for two whole years. It is not for me to say who haa been moat to blame in the paat. I judge no one, atill leas do I undertake to defend them; but I speak of acts patent and known to all, when I say that the position of parties in thia province, the bitterness and virulence of party feeling, and the narrowness and acrimony to which those feelings gave rise, were de grading and demoralizing us all to a degree which it is not pleasant to look back upon even now. And so far from regarding the union of parties which has taken place as a political misfortune in itself, or as tending to deprive the people of any safeguard, 1 .say that it waa ofthe greateat importance to our people that they should be relieved, if only for a brief period, from the deaperate party atrugglea in which they have been engaged — that a lull of aome kind ahould be afforded, that they ahould have aome opportunity of conaidering the grave dangera whicb encom- paaa them, aome chance of eaoaping from the state of practical anarchy into which they had l/6en drifting. It ia to their credit, Mr. Speaker, and to the credit of thoae who control the preas of thia country, that ever aince thia project haa been fairly before us a very marked improvement has taken place in the whole tone and temper of public discussion. Of the preaa, in particular, I muat say that the moment they were relieved from the neceaaity of aupporting party manoeuvrea — the moment a subject of auffi cient importance waa submitted for considera tion, they seem to bave risen at once to the level of the subject, and to have abandoned all those unhappy and ranoourous personali ties wbich, in times past, were too apt to disfigure their pages. Sir, I believe the people of Canada have learned a lesson which they will not easily forget. I believe that henceforward it will not be found so easy to array citizen againat citizen, race againat race, aa it baa been heretofore. I believe our people have diacovered that men who riae to be the heada of groat parties are not of necessity villains and scoundrels — that both sides may have great political principles to maintain — that the words Reformer and Revolutionist, Conservative and Corrup- tionist, are not absolutely convertible terms, and that men who have given up the best part of their lives, and sacrificed too often, the best part of their fortunes in the service of their country, have had some bet ter and higher reasons than mere love of 822 jobbery and intrigue for doing so. To me, sir, tbia appeara a matter of great moment. It ia only too notorioua how muoh of the miaery and misfortune which has befallen tbe United States, is to be traced to the sys tematic degradation of their public men. It is well for ua that the matter ia atill in our own power. It is well for ua that we have atill the choice whether we will have atatea.- meu or stump orators to rule over us — whether tbia Houae ahall maintain ita hon orable poaition aa the repreaentativea of a free people, or whether it shall aink into a mere mob of delegatea, the nomineea of cau- cuaea and of wire-pullers. It is atill in our power to decide whether we shall secure a fair share of the best talent we posaeaa to carry on the affairs of the country, or whether we will ostracise from our councila every man of superior ability, education or intelli gence — with wbat practical results we need not look far abroad to see; and I think, sir, it is fast becoming apparent that in this, aa in other mattera, the, people of Canada are well disposed to adhere to the traditiona of their Britiah anceatry. There is one objection, Blr. Speaker, which haa been advanced perpetually throughout thia debate by aome hon. gentlemen who, while unable or unwilling to ahow any valid reaaon againat Confederation in itaelf, pro fess themaelvea bitterly acandaliaed at the political corabination by which it is likely to be brought about. Now, sir, I admit at once that there is a prejudice, a just and wholesome prejudice, against all coalitions in the abatract. I admit that that prejudice ia eapecially atrong in the minda of English men, and that, in point of fact, a coalition is alwaya an extreme meaaure, only to be had resort to in caaes of extieme emergency. A coalition, Mr. Speaker, may be a very baae act, but it may alao be a very noble one. It may be a mere conapiracy, for purpoaea of revenge or plunder, on the partof men hating and detesting each other to the uttermoat — or It may be an honorable aacrifice of private personal enraity before the pressure of over whelraing public necessities, to escape frora great danger or to carry a great object. Sir, I shaU not insult the inteUigence of the House by enquiring whether this preaent exiating Coalition haa propoaed to itaelf an object of aufficient importance to warrant ita formation Even those who censure the de tails of this scheme moat strongly are fain to do homage to the grandeur of the project, and are compelled to admit that a union which should raiae this oountry from the position of a mere province to that of a distinct nation, is a project well worthy of the utmost efforta ofour stateamen. To determine the remain ing queation whether the position of our •affaira were so critical as to require the utmost energy of all our loaders, and to justify any union which gave a reaaonable hope of extricating ouraelves from our diffi culties, 1 must again revert to the co-; dition in which we found ourselves during the last few years, and I ask every hon. member to answer for himaelf whether it was one which it gives him any pleasure to look back upon '! Was it pleasant for us, BIr. Speaker, a young country without one penny of debt which has not been incurred for purposes of public utUity — waa it pleaaant forua,! ask, to flnd our revenue yearly outrunning our ex penditure in the ratio of 20, 30 or even 40 per cent, per annum? Waa it pleaaant for ua to know that some of our once bnaiest and moat prosperoua citiea were being depo pulated under the preaaure of exorbitant taxation ? Waa it pleasant for ua, inhabiting a country able to sustain ten times its present population,to find capital and im migran ta alike fleeing from our shorea, even if they had to take refugo in a land desolated by civU war? Waa it pleaaant for ua, sir, tho only colony of England which haa ever vindicated ita attachment to the Empire in fair flght, to know that our apathy and negligence in taking steps for our own defence was fast making us the byword to both friend and foe ? And lastly, Mr. Speaker, I ask was it pleasant for us, n.eeding and knowing that we needed a strong Government above all thinga, one whioh sbould .maintain a firm and steady policy, andjpossesa the good-wUl and support of at least a lari^e majority of our people— I aay, sir, was it pleasant for us at such a criais to find ourselves the victims of a mere political see-saw — to be aure only of this one fact, that whatever course of policy waa adopted, the circumatance that It emanated from one party would cauae it to be viewed with jealouay and auapicion by the whole remaining moiety of the nation ? I would oot have it thought, BIr. Sps-.akee, that in aaying this^ I am blind to the difficul ties with which our stateamen have had to struggle. So far from thia I believe that it haa been quite too much the faahion to underrate them in times past. Wehavespoken of them as if it were the easiest task in the 823 world to blend together, in less than one gen eration, two distinct peoples — peoplea differ ing from one another in race, in language, in laws, cuatoms and religion — in one word, in alraost every point in which it is possible for men of European origin, and professing one common Christianity, to differ from eaeh other. Sir, this could never have been an eaay taak. It is one which has again and again baffled the ablest statesmen of the most powerful monarchies of Europe ; and I will not undertake to say whether it is ever capable ot complete accompliahment. Be that as it may, 1 know tbat in every empire which haa ever exiated, from the English to the Roman, which has held different races under its sway, it has alwaya been found necesaary to make large allowancea for dis tinctive national traits — has, in fact, been found necessary to introduce in some measure the Federal element, though it is equally true that in every state which deaerved the name of an empire, the supreme authority of the central power in all that concerns the general welfare has been acknowledged un reservedly. And, air, it ia just because this seems to have beeu effectual in all essential points in the scheme now before ua — becauae, while reserving to the General Government the power ofthe purse and the sword, it accords the amplest defensive powers to the varioua local bodies — becauae, even where there may be some conflict of juriadictiou on minor matters, every reasonable precaution seems to have been taken against leaving behind ua any reveraionary legaciea of sovereign state rights to stir up strife and discord among our children. For ail these reasons, I say, I am disposed to give my hearty sup port to the soheme as a whole, without criticising too narrowly the innumerable details wnich it must inevitably preaent to attack. All I hope is that in adjusting our new constitutions, local and general, we shall not allow our minds to be warped by antiquated notions of the dangers which threaten our liberty. No fear here, Blr. Speaker, for many a day to come at least, of perils which await us from the tyranny of hereditary rulers, or the ambition of aristo cratic oligarchies. No, sir, no; and while it is true tbat here as elsewhere, there are always dangers enough to retard our pro gress, I think that every true reformer, every real friend of liberty will agree with me in saying that if we must erect safe guards, they should be rather fer the security of the individual than of the masa, and that our chief'ost care muat be to train the majority to reapect the righta of the minority, to prevent the claima of the few from being trampled under foot by the caprice or paaaion of fhe, many. For myself, sir, I own frankly I prefer British liberty to American equality. I had rather uphold the majeaty of the law than the majesty of Judge Lynch. I had rather be the aubject of an hereditary monarch, who dare not enter the hut of the pooreat peaaant without leave had and obtained, than be the free and sovereign elector of an autocratic President, whose very Blinister can boaat the power of impriaoning one man in New York and another in St. Louia by the touching of a bell-wire ! I aaid, air, that there were many reaaona why we ahoulel all unite in furthering this project. It is not merely because of the barriera to material progreaa which it will remove — though I am far from undervaluing their importance ; it ia not merely becauae of the higher prizea which it will throw open to individual ambition — though I do not affect to deapiae thia either ; but it is chiefly, after all, because I believe it will be found to have the most beneficial resulta, in elevating our politics and in inapiring our people with thoae feelings of dignity aud self-respect which lie at the bottom of all real national greatneaa. Sir, I can only liken cur poaition for some time paat to that of a youth who haa been allowed to take poaaeaaion of his inheritance at an age when he is not yet legally responsible for his actions. I do not believe that such a position is good either for a nation or an individual, and I for one rejoice that it is about being brought to a close. There were aeveral other subjects, Blr. Speaker, which I had inteuded to allude to; but I find my voice is still too weak to allow more than a few remarks. Still, sir, I do not wish to sit down without saying briefly that I am glad to find one leason at least, which the British Constitu tion ought to teach ua, is beginning to be impreased upon our people. That Constitu tion, Mr. Speaker — though we have not always been sufficiently alive to the fact — while it does not require the poaaeaaion of thoae lofty, impracticable virtuea which moat republican inatitutiona demand fiom their votaries, does neverthelesa preauppose a reasonable amount of discretion at the hands of those who are intrusted with the 82* carrying out of its details. And, sir, though it is true that it does recogniae the calm, de liberate, juat deciaion of the majority — and the calm and deliberate deciaion is almost always just — as final in the last resoit, it does atiU so abound with safeguards — with latent checks of all kinds — checks estab lished, many of them, more by custom and uaage than by poaitive law — as to make it all but imposaible for any majority, how ever strong, to perpetrate any gross act of injustice on a minority, so long aa that minority could command but oue or two reaolute repreaentativea on the floor of Par liament. Sir, it ia impoasible not to feel that it is io a very great degree to thia fact, to the instinctive sense of the inherent powers of self-defence whieh our customs give to the weak against the strong — to the conviction that to drive any party to deapair would create an inevitable dead-lock — that England owea it that she haa contrived to adminiater her affaira for near two hundred yeara without any overt acta of tyranny or one direct colliaion or irregular interferenee with the ordinary courae of law. Sir, I rejoice to aee that we will continue to adhere to a ayatem whioh haa borne auch good fruit, aa a whole, in the parent land; and I think the reflection how difficult, if uot how dan geroua, it ia to oppreaa a determined minority under auch a ayatem, may aerve to calm the feara of those hon rable gentlemen who dread the loas of local rights and privi leges at the hands of the stronger race. For the rest, BIr, Speaker, though I wUl venture upon no predictions — though I know we muat expect many difficultiea, many checka before we can hope to bring ao grea't an enterpriae to a aucoessful iaaue — I truat I may be p.ardoned for expreasing my con viction that the loyalty and fidelity of the early aettlera of tbis country — and I speak here without regard to any apecial nation aUty— is deatined to be rewardsd in the way in whieh they would most have deaired to see it rewarded if they had lived to aee thia day, by the establishment of a kingdom on the banka of the St. Lawrence, which, without binding itself down to a slavish adherence to the customs of the old world would yet cherish and preaerve thoae time- honored asaociationa our American neighbors have seen fit so recklessly to cast away. Sir, our forefathers may have had their faulta ; but atill, in apite of all, I dare affirm that the brave, aelf-saorificing spirit they dis played — their manful struggle against heavy odda — and last, but not least, the patient, law-abiding apirit which haa ever induced them to prefer reform to revolution, even when engaged in sweeping away the last ves tiges of worn-out feudal systems in Church and State from their midat— I say, sir, that these afford ua ample proof that the men to whom, I hope, we ahall 80on look back as the foundera of a new nation, were ancestors of whom any people might be proud; and I trust that we, their descendants, may prove ouraelves but half aa capable of administering and developing the vast inheritance which awaits ua. Sir, I believe that even we ouraelvea are but juat beginning to grow aware ofthe immenae reaoUrces, whether in field or forest, , in mine or in minerala, in seas or in fiaheriea, with which it abounds ; that we are but just beginning to appreciate the advantages which surround us — our aU but unparalled internal navigation ; a healthy and far from over-rigorous climate, and a country whieh, even if it does not present the same facilities for accumulating enormoua fortunes in the haods of a few individuala whioh aome other landa may afford, atiU promiaea, and, I think, wiU continue for many a day to promiae, comfort and competence to every man who ia willing to work for it. Older nations, BIr. Speaker, are working for us even now. Older nationa are accumulating the akill and the cap-ital whioh will yet be tranaferred to our shores, if our own folly do not prevent it. Older nations are even now busied in solving those problems which advanced civilization is sure to bring to us in our turn ; and we, if we are wise, may learn and profit by their example. A little patience, a httle forbearance, a little timely concession to mutual prejudices, a little timely prepar ation against possible dangera, and we may well hope to eatabliah a state which, in all eaaential attributea of power and happineaa, need not fear compariaon with any other on this continent. Let ua not be daunted by any accidental checka— we muat lay our account to meet such in matters of not one- tenth its importance— this is the time and this the hour ; never again can we hope to enter on our task under circumstances better fitted to remove the natural, the inevitable prejudices which must exist between so many different provinces— never ao-ain can we hope to receive a warmer and more energetic support from the Imperial autho rities—never again can we hope to see a 825 Ministry in office which shall command moro completely the confidence of the great maaa of our people, and which shall possess the same or equal facilities for adjusting those sectional difficulties which have disturbed us so long ; and I trust that in this moat important crisis, this House will show itself not altogether unworthy to be intrusted with the destinies of three millions of their countryraen. My own years are not very many, BIr. Speaker, but yet even I can remember when Canada was but a petty pro vince, an obscure dependency, scarce able to make its voice heard on the other aide of the Atlantic without a rebellion ; forgotten or ignored, aa if, aa the French Miniater said when be signed the treaty for its surrender, " it mattered not what became of a few barren acres of snow !" And yet, sir, in less than thirty yeara I have lived to see Canada expand into a state equal in numbera, in resources and power of self-government to many an independent European kingdom — lacking only the will to step at once from the position of a dependency to that of an ally — a favored ally of the great country to whieh we belong, and to take that rank among the commonwealth of nations wbich is granted to those people, and to those only, who have proved that they possesa the power aa well aa the wiah to defend their libertiea. This, air, ia what I think Canada can do ; this is what I think Canada ought to do; and if, aa I believe, thia project of Confeder ation would contribute moat powerfully to enable ua to do ao, there are few aacrificea which I would refuae to make for such an object — much more, forgive my honorable frienda yonder for having in time paat apoken aomewhat over harahly and hastily of each other. Lot tbem only persevere, let them only go on and complete the task which I will say they have ao nobly begun, and they will have made good their claim — I do uot say to the forgiveneaa — but to the regard, the affection, the esteem of every man who ahall hereafter bear the name of Canadian. (Cheers.) Mr. harwood said— Mr. Speaker, the importance of the propoaed meaaure ; the fatal conaequences which would result to the country if the plan of Confederation were rejected by this House; the sources of social, political and commercial prosperity with which the measure of Confederation is preg nant, if it is adopted with a firm deter mination on the partof all to contribute their part towards its perfect working, are such, 105 that notwithstanding the eloquent speeches delivered on fhe subject on both sides, and which seem to have corapletely exhausted it, I conaider it my duly to make known to the oountry the reaaona which influence me to assist in passing it. Called, as we all are, to record our votea either for or againat thia great conatitutional change, it is no more than right that every one should in his own way account for the part which he may take in a measure which will naturally inaugurate a new era in the parliamentary annals of Canada. (Hear, hear.) I have liatened attentively to the opponenta of the meaaure, and read their apeeches again and again, and truly the only effect they have had on my mind is a stronger conviction that in the anomalous position of the country, a Federal union of all the Provinces of British North America is the only remedy for all the innumerable difficultiea which are aha- dowed forth on our political horizon. (Cheera.) The opponenta of the meaaure, not being able poaitively to deny the advan tages of Confederation to all the five pro vinoes of British America, endeavor to get up a cry that this union would involve the loss to us French-Canadians, and Catholics, of our nationality, our language, our lawa and inatitutiona. I, for my part, cannot look upon it in ao terrible a Ught — having all hiatory before me, I cannot come to that conclusion. I ahall aoon shew clearly that there exista throughout the world confeder ationa iu whioh are included different nation alities, different religious aecta, and in which, nevertheleaa, the most thorough equilibrium prevaila of tho political, civil and religioua righta pertaining to the different claaaes of which they conaiat. Do we find any other meana of aettling our difficultiea of all kinda beaides this of Confederation ? No, I find none ; and none is propoaed to ua by the opponenta of the plan now before the Houae ! BIr. Speaker, the country ia come to a political dead-lock ; we have arrived at a criaia ; ambition, the thirat of power, political paaaions worked upon in all ways and on all sidea, have so clogged the wheela of the machine of govemment, that it haa been brought to a atand-atill ; and thoae who guided ita movementa have had to rack their braina to find aome way of continuing the transaction of public buainess — a way by which we may arrive at a solution of the difficulty, and escape from the slough of status quo in wbich the wheels of government are stuck fast, and by which wo may return to the s?6 high road of progress and improvement. Truly, BIr. Speaker, if the bitterest eneray of Canada had had it in his power to invent an inclined plane on which he might place us to hurry us to ruin, he could not have done it better than the different political parties bave done it within the last few years. Elections en elections, one Ministry succeeding another ; one crying out extrav agance, the other issuing commiaaiona of inquiry to try to make placea for ita frienda — what, in abort, haa been the course of events for the laat few yeara ? Since the 2l8t May, 1862, have we not had four or five governments, who have managed the affairs of the country ? One we had which seemed to be "the darling of the nations," the paragon government of economy and retrenchment, tho BIacdonald-Dorion Government. What did it do for the country? Nothing, absolutely nothing ; it had not even the moral courage to stand by its own measures. In tbe beginning of February, 1864, it brought in a bill (that respecting sheriffs). Well, what did it do in the circumstances ? Afraid of its own work, it stood aghast at the remonatrancea of aome of ita own partiaana, wbo were con tumacious — deapair fell upon the leaders — the camp was a scene of confuaion ; and lo ! one fino day thia Blinistry, which was to bring back the golden age of happiness and proaperity, aank placidly to reat — became a thing of the paat, and left "not a wreck behind" to mark ita accession to power. In a word, that pattern Adminiatration died in ita virginity, died with the famoua scheme of retrenchment in its hand, and a still-born "budget" on its eonsciei^ce! (Continued laughter and cheers.) I ask every man of sense how many such govemmenta aa that we ahould require to take the ship of the country'a welfare into port — to redeem ua - from our unhappy condition— to calm the atrife of partiea— to settle the many queations, often irreconcilably incorapatible with each other, which had so long agitated the differ ent sections of the country — a strife which threatened to become perpetual? AVhat would have become of us if a providential piece of good fortune had not brought to gether the men who compoae the preaent Adminiatration ? Every one can conceive that the Coalition Govemment, the only pos sible one in such circumstancea, came in juat in the nick of tirae; and, aa a proof of ita fitneaa for ita misaion, it " took fortune by the forelock," as the proverb says, and cle verly made uae of opportunity. In faot, three montha after the present Ministry was formed, three of the Lower Provinces, com prehending the utility of a union among themaelvea, conceived the idea of forming one from which might flow strength and prosperity to all; being convinced that a state of disunion such as theira had alwaya been — their commerce paralyzed by hoatile tariffs — was a political suicide. They therefore sent delegates to Charlottetown, to devise a plan among themselves for the purpose of solving, in some profitable manner, the difficulties which beaet them, tbe three provincea. What courae did our Govemment then take? The members of the Cabinet — too wise to disregard the importance of the movement — too statesmanlike to neglect its advantages — found means to take part in tho proceedings at Charlottetown ; and being convinced that a Federal union of all the Provinces of British North America would be the real salvation of the country, laid before the delegates at Charlottetown a large, well-digested scheme baaed on a regard for justice and equality in reapect of the righta and privileges of all ; a scheme by which each origin and each belief will enjoy full and complete protection ; a scheme of Federal union, in a word, having for its apex the powerful segis of England ; for its foundation, social, political and commercial proaperity ; and for its cornerstone, conatitu tional liberty in all ita amplitude and atrength. (Cheera.) Thia idea of a Confederation of the provinces ia not a new one. AU who are in the slighteat degree acquainted with the parliamentary hiatory of the country, are aware that a plan for the Confederation of the Britiah North American Provinces was one of the base^ upon which the programme cf the Cartier-BIacdonald Administration reated il} 1858. It may be aaked—" Why ahould we have Confederation ?" " Why ahould we not remain aa we are ?"^ It is impossible, and its impossibility is proved by the past. Let those who do not see the seasonableness of the Confederation look at what is going on on the other side of the line — what do they see there ? The threatened abrogation of the Reciprocity treaty. Tbe abrogation of tbe transit system is tlireafened. A passport system, whioh throws the greatest possible obstacles in the way of our free travel through the States, and does serious injury to the development of our trade, has been in augurated. We have no means of com- 827 municating during the winter with the Mother Country, except by passing over American soil, and our"passage over^that'soil is^merely toler ated ; we may at any moment be deprived of this privilege, and in that case we'should find ourselves all at once, during the long winter season, without, any possible/means ^of com munication with Europe. These reasons are more than sufficient to cause us to seek to im prove our position, and the only possible means by which to effect that, object, is a commercial, social and politioal union with our sister colonies, the Maritime Provinces. I hear honorable members say — " Why not rather have the repeal of the union?" "Why not leave Upper and Lower Canada separate as they were previous to 1840 ?" Such a measure would probably put an end to the reiterated demanda of Upper Canada for representation^baaed upon population, and the fears entertained by Lower Canada, the fear of seeing her institutiona endangered, should that system of representation be con ceded ; but that measure would be rather a retrograde one, which would throw the country back, and would place it in the posi tion which it occupied previous to the union. That nieasure would abrogate an agreement which has long existed — a union which has proved to the country a well-spring of pro gress, riches and prosperity. Such a dissolu tion would only tend to weaken us still more, and we should be but two weak and insignifi cant provinces, whereas our union has con verted us into one province comparatively strong. We can realize the gigantic works which have been carried out when we look upon our canals and our railways. Ia there any one man endowed with ordinary fairness — any one man who has not completely taken leave of his senses, who will venture to say that Upper and Lower Canada would have been as far advanced, each of them, as they now are, if they had remained separate, with tariffs inimical the one to the other ? " Soon er than have Confederation," will exclaim an opponent, root and branch, of the scheme pro posed, " let us concede to Upper Canada repre sentation adjusted on the basis of population wholly and entirely, as the honorable member for Hochelaga would appear in his celebrated manifesto of 1865 to desire;" but this is positively absurd — it is a violation of the spirit and the letter ofthe Union Act of 1840 ; it is the principal source of all the difficult.es of a sectional nature which have proved the source of difficulty, both in this House and throughout the country, for several years past. It would,be asking for the utter ruin ot the civil and religious rights of the French- Canadians. Under such melancholy circum stances, BIr. Speaker, what is then left for us ? There is left for us the Coufederation of all the British Provinces in North Ameri ca. That ia the only poasible remedy under exiating circumstances. Of two alternatives we must select one. Either we shall form part of a Confederation of the British North American Provinces, or we shall faU into the unfathomable gulf of the Confederation of the neighboring States, formerly the United Statea. (Hear, hear.) How abaurd are they who believe that the United Statea do not want us, with our mineral wealth and our fisheries, which latter are if themselves an inexhaustible source of riches to the country ! The United States did not, in 1776, number more than four, millions of inhabitants ; there were then only thirteen states ; now there arQ thirty -one states and seven territories — at least that was the number before the war — and a population of more than thirty millions. We know that the prodigious growth of the United States is owing to their purchases, their treaties and their conquests. They want us, and would stir heaven and earth to have us in their grasp. (Hear, hear.) Let us beware I We stand on the brink of the yawning gulf of the American Confederation, falling into which we encounter, first, our share of liability to pay a national debt of three thousand millions of dollars, and an an nual expenditure of five hundred millions ; and next, a share of their national quarrels and civil wars. Exposed to persecution by the conqueror, and loaded with the heavy burthen of enormous debts incurred in the prosecution of a cruel and fratricidal war — a war of which, be it said, everybody knows the beginning, but of which nobody knows the end — the uncalculating opponents of the measure before us will regret their obstinacy and their disregard of their country's weal. Then they will see the naked features of those democratic institutions which are in reality inconsistent with trueliberty — of thoae boaated inatitutiona, under whoae influence the last vestiges of liberty have faded away, as does the light at the close of a bright day. Under them the liberty of the press is un known ; uuder them, liberty is but a name, a dream, an illusion, a mockery, often a snare ; under them no man can venture to speak frankly, what he thinks,[and must take care 828 that what he says is in unison with the opin ions of the majority of his audience ; under them the rights of th'e minority are unac knowledged, ignored, as if they had no exist ence : tho will of the majority is law. For my part, Mr. Speaker, democratic institu tions have no charms for me. Liberty, Equality, Fraternity I How m^any sad and mournful memories are connected with those three words in France ? In the name of Liberty, Equality, Fraternity, in the year 1793, that country saw the best of kinga led to the guillotine, provincea laid waate, blood flowing like water ; the standard of rebellion and insubordination raiaed and borne triumph antly ; the pillage of churches and monas teries, the desecration of the altar ; priests, nuns, old mon, women. End even children, murdered ! Those three magic worda were the aignal and vindication of the " drowninga at Nantea," sometimes called by the fine Bounding name of " republican marriages." Yea, Blr Speaker, civil war ragea among our neighbora ; but let ua hope that Divine Providence will guard theae new countriea from the diaaaters and the horrid crimes which, to the eternal shame of civilization, atain the hiatory of certain portions of Eu rope at the close of the laat century. It waa after a civil war that the terrible pro- acriptiona of Marius and Sylla commenced. Let peace once bo made between the Fed eral and Confederate States, then we shall see the harveat of rancorous hatred cover the earth, the firea pt revenge burat forth ; then woe to those who have given offence to men of the type and character of the famous General Butler. What ia incumbent on ua, then, if we would eacape sharing the horrors of the aituation ? What but to unite, one and all — to combine all our means, our re sourcea, our en rgiea, and to have confidence in ouraelves and in one another — to show England that we intend to emerge from the state of isolation in which each several pro- yince haa lain as regards the othera ; that we intend to organize a ayatem, so aa to be pre pared to do our part in the hour of danger ? We have every assurance that England will spend her last m.-m, her last shilling, in de fending and protecting us. Having a Fed eral union, all the wealth which abounds in the five provincea will be moat highly devel oped ; our mineral richea, our timber, our fisheries, our commerce, internal ani external, our industrial arta and manufacturea, will all receive a fresh impulae ; capital wUl flow in, and with it the means of defence of every description. I do not pretend to say that the mere fact of a " Confederation " will ren der us invincible. No, far from it, eapecial ly when oppoaed to so formidable, so warlike a foe as the neighboring Confederation has now become; but I do venture to say that if we do our best, England will never desert us, and if the armies of the neighboring Con federacy should occupy our country, it would not be hers to keep it long. It is not essen tially a necessity, Mr. Speaker, that a smaU Confederation cannot exist by the side of a large one without being swallowed up and absorbed. If all great nations are bound to subject to their yoke all the little onea, wby are there so many small states in Europe ? (Hear, hear.) It may be that the mutual jealousies of the great powera are the cause ; then who ahall say that France — France which fought aide by side with England in the Crimea — France which, look ing at Bloxico, ia so deeply interested in the affairs of thia continent — would not join with England in a war between that pov, er andthe neighboring Statea, if the latter should un dertake to drive the Engliah from the banka of the St. Lawrence ? When a nation, atrong in ita righta, ia determined to preaerve them, it ia often invincible. When Xerxes, with a million of men, fell upon Greece, was he not driven back witb the total loss of hia immenae army ? When war waa declared againat the South, was not the North, with its population of twenty miUions, going to annihilate the South in three months ? It is now more than four years that the war has been raging, and the South, without frienda, without alliea, ia not yet conquered and made to pasa under the yoke. Thj history of Pruaaia afforda a proof of what bravery can achieve, even when opposed to an enemy infinitely auperior in numbera. In 1740, the youthful Prince Frederic ascended the Throne of Prussia. The country contained no more than 48,000 aquare miles, and had a population of only two milliona and a half, leaa than the popula tion of Canada alone, as it now ia. Her fron tier northward was a wall of ice, all the sea porta were cloaed during the winter season ; her only ally was lukewarm ; to the east, west and south, she was bounded by powerful em pires, the population of each of which alone far exceeded that which she could boast. The country was long and narrow ; it waa flat and well adapted at all points for the move menta of troops ; no couutry could be more exposed to an invasion ; nevertheless the Prince, unchallenged, threw himself headlong 829 into a bloody war — as the aggressor — with all his neighbors. Alone, and simultaneously, he had on his hands Austria, France and Russia. Yet he left to his successor a king dom of 74,000 square miles, and a people numbering nearly six millions. The small and heroic republic of Holland did not hesi tate to enter into a war with the mighty monarchy of Spain, then mistress of the wealth of the Indies. At this day her vessels are found in every sea. Java and Sumatra belong to her. Yet her population is smaller than that of the Provinces of British North Amer ica. Single-handed in 1848, Piedmont dared to enter on a struggle with Austria. The King of Piedmont had then four millions of subjects ; he now reigns over twenty-two millions. Even poor little Greece, with a million of inhabitants, must have its share in revolutions, choose a king, and talk of its rights, its pretensions, and its aapirationa. No, BIr. Speaker, the one, the only meana of safety for us, in the cir'-umatancos, is to have a Federal union of all our provinces — a social, political, commercial and inilitary union. Happen what may, when we have done all that men of courage and energy can be expected to do to mend our position, our future will not be ao dark aa the frienda and advocatea of the status quo would have ua believe. Do theae wonderful patriota really believe in their hearts, that continuing to be iaolated as tbey are from each other, having no cordial alliance, almost no relationa or in tercourae, the Provinces of Britiah North America would be either stronger or less ex posed to the attacks of the Northern States than they would be if united ? Are tbose persons not original in their ideas who allege that the endeavor of the Provinces of British North America to form a Confederation is a kind of provocation and defiance to the North em Statea ? If the Northern Statea made thia allegation, the moat that could be aaid of it would be, that it would be a vain pretext, as futile aa it would be abaurd. Not leaa ridiculous and misjudging are these peraona who pretend th.it the Confederation of the Provincea of British North Araerica would be a atep towarda annexation to the Northem States. Truly, there are aorae minda which have an odd way of looking at thinga. If, indeed, the opponenta of Confederation would only preacribe aome other remedy to obviate the evila which threaten ua aa an effect of Confederation, we should have at least the benefit of a choice ; but no — nothing of the sort — they attack, criticise, but suggest nothing. On the other hand, the principa journals of Europe and several respectable journals in the neiL'hboring States have re corded their approbation of the scheme of Confederation submitted by the Government, and predict a brilliant future for the new empire which is about to arise on this aide of the frontier line. (Hear, hear.) Re ferring to biatory, we find that confederations have been formed in nearly all ages, and that the principal cause of their formation has been, not only the purpose of mutual protec tion, but a military object. These two mo tives combined with a third, that of com mercial advanta!j;cs, suggested the project which now occupies our attention. Among the ancient Greeks there were several Federal unions, the two principal being the iEtolian and the Achoean ; the former, dating from a period long antecedent to that of Alexan der, was broken up by the subjection of the states composing the league to Rome, about 180 years B.C.; the aecond, which was formed about 280 years B. C, was deatroyed by the Romans about 150 years before the vulgar era. The jEtolian Confederation com prised all the northern parts of Greece on tho confines of Thessaly and Epirus, a portion of Ce-itral Greece, and several of the islands of the jiEgean sea. This was a union rather of provinces than of cities. It had a "Consti tution," " States General," a chief magistrate, a commander-in-chief, and different public officera, with different functiona or powera ; the power of declaring war and that of mak ing p*ce, of levying taxea coining money current at that time — all were intruated to the Central Governraent. The Achoean liOague, on the contrary, was a union, not of pro vinces, but of cities or towns — not lesa than seventy in nuraber. There was a Federal capital, a " Cjnatitutioo," different public officera, each inveated with privilegea and cer tain powera and dutiea, too raany to be enu merated in tbia place. Who haa not read the life of Aratus and that of Philopcemen, the la, ter one of the greateat statesmen, the other the greatest captain of the Achoean union ? In reading the hiatory of theae na tiona we shall find that it was their union which saved them so long from the inroads of their enemiea, aod which, for agea, preaerved their autonomy. We next come to the Ital ian Confederation of the middle agea. Like those of Greece, they derived their origin from military necessity. The League of Lom bardy, and that of the Tuscans, were pro jected principally as a mutual protection 830 against the emperors, who were greedy of conquest, and among them against Frederic Barbarossa. In that of the Tuscans, there wag even an ecclesiastical element of a decided character, inspired by Pope Innocent III., its principal author. The famous Roman Tribune Rienzi tried to form a Confederation of all the Italian States, but perished without realizing this dream of his existence. Rome was to be the Federal Capital. Rienzi died in 1352. The Swiss or Helvetic Confederacy exiated from the twelfth century. In 1474 Louis XI. of France endeavored to aubdue it, but loat hia trouble. In 1477 Charles the Bold of Burgundy lost his kingdora and life while foolishly assail ing thia Confederate power. In 1488 the Em peror MAXIMILI.4.N tried also in vain to sub jugate the oountry. Spain likewise endeavored on many occasions to subdue the Confederate Sfates, but failed. In 1798 the Cantons of Switzerland became the Helvetian Republic. In 1803 they fell under the protection of Napoleon I., and in 1813 the allies overran them. In virtue of the Federal Act signed at Zurich in 1815, important amendments were made in their Constitution. The pur pose of the Helvetian Confederation ia the protection of the country againat foreignera, the maintenance of peace and tranquUity at home, the preaervation of public liberty in the Confederation, and the increase of its general proaperity. Thia Confederation haa survived two European revolutiona, without mentioning internal troubles, and it is now fifty years old. We must bear in mind that a^opula- tion the moat various, the moat mixed in point of origin, language and religion, livea under thia Constitution. The people number about two milliona and a half; about one and two-tbirda of a niiUion apeak Ger man, half a raUlion apeak French, and the remainder Italian and other languages. One half of the population is Catholic, the other Protestant. Their interejsta ariaing from locality, race and faith, are aa complioated and aa vai-ious as are tbeir manners, language and customs, and yet they all are free, all live se curely, respected, happy and proaperoua. They all enjoy the greateat and the pureat liberty. Theie are twenty-two Cantons, and what is astonishing ia that the chief of the Canton of Neufchatei ia a king, the King of Pruaaia. (Hear, hear.) I shall not speak of the Con federation of the United States of the Nether lands, whicb had their day, their glory and their uae ; but I shall aay a word of the great Germanic Confederation. This ia compoaed of forty states of very different size, and con tains thirty-four miUions of inhabitants. There belong to it kingdoms, grand duchies, duchies, principalities and free cities. In this vaat association are (Jatholics, Protest ants, Jews, in short different religions and nationaUties, and yet none tyrannise over others ; all live happily under tho same Feder al union and under the protectorate of the Emperor of Austria. Of those sfates, Aus tria is, properly speaking, the first in import ance ; her army in time of peace is 280,000 men, in time of war she can bring into the field 800,000. Prussia is the second, with an army of 200,000 men, and a national mUi tia of 400,000 men. There are, as I have said, in these states various nationalities and different sects of religion, and, nevertheless, the rights of each are preserved in all their integrity. Why then should not we, French- Canadians and Catholics, become a component part of the Confederation of the Provinces of British North America, without any appre henaion of seeing our language, our laws, our religion and our institutiona endangered ? It aeems to me that we could find no perfect and complete protection otherwise than by a Confederation of this nature, inasmuch as it is a union based on equity towards the inhabi tants of tbe five provinces as its most vital and fundamental principle. As to the Con federation of the United Statea, I shaU merely name them. Every one knowa that in 1775, when the thirteen colonies revolted against England, they believed that the only meana of aecuring internal proaperity and of de fending themaelvea againat the common enemy, was to unite together for their mu tual protection ; cleaiTy perceiving that if they remained separate, and without any bond of union, as the uncalculating oppo nents of the present plan of Confederation would wiah the Provincea of British North America to remain, their defeat was certain, and instead of coming victorioualy out of the atruggle, they would be eaaily conquered. I shall now, BIr. Speaker, ask to be allowed to say a few words on the other confedera tions which have existed on the continent of Araerica. In the first place I shall mention that of Central America, or Guatimala. That Confederation was aituated on the ahorea of the Pacific Ocean and the Gulf of Mexico. It consisted of five statea — Guatimala, Hon duraa, San Salvador, Nicaragua, and Costa Rica. These states were peopled by Creoles, Blestizos, Indians and Negroes. Until the year 1821 tbis Confederation was rich and 831 prosperous. Guatimala, then, imitating the ill-advised example of other Spanish colonies, declared its independence, and thought^fit to set up as a Federal republic ; but in 1839 an insurrection detached the state of Honduras from the Confederation, and shortly after tbe other states also declared themselves to be in dependent (1847) ; and what are they now ? They have fallen into complete insignificance, a prey to the ambition of numerous dictators, without any common bond, disunited, and therefore without vitality or strength. (Hear, hear.) We next come to the united provin ces of Rio de la Plata, now constituting the Argentine republic. The Confederation of La Plata comprised fourteen states, the great er part of which formed at one time a por tion of the immense Viceroyalty of Peru. In 1778, being united to the present province of Bolivia, to Paraguay and Uruguay, they formed a particular Viceroyalty, that of Rio de la Plata. In 1810 they took part in the important insurrectionary movement which shook all the transatlantic dependencies of Spain ; from that time everything tended to republicanism ; separate and independent states became republics. They are now a prey to anarchy and the confusion which at tends such institutions. The industrial arts are unheeded, and the commerce limited. If, sir, that Confederation had proved to be faithful to the cause which gave it life, if union had prevailed instead of disunion, strength, power, prosperity and wealth would have fallen to the lot of the association, in place of poverty, miaery, and decay, which aeem now to be their inevitable fate. (Hear, hear.) But some of the honorable members of this House have maintained that the union would be beneficial to none but the Maritime Pro vinces, that they alone would derive advan tage from it, as they are comparatively poor, while Canada is lich by means of its trade, through its industrial pursuits, its manufac tures and ita agriculture. I maintain for my part that we are as much in need of them as they are of us — (hear, hear) — both in regard to industry, to trade, and to military power. In the first place, let us consider the various resources of the several Maritime Provinces. Nova Scotia is not, certainly, altogether an agricultural country, but it contains valleys in which the soil is as deep, as rich, and as well suited for farming as the best lands of tbe West. A large portion of the population are devoted to fishing, and skilled in drawing from the bosom oi* the deep the inexhaustible treasures which wiU be a perennial source of wealth and prosperity to that country ; more over, such a life tends to form men to brave the dangers of the sea, and, in case of need, those hardy seamen would be ready and will ing to loud tbeir aid and do their part in the defence of the country. Nor is this all ; the country exports prodigious quantities of tim ber of all kinds, which will not be exhausted for ages to come. Every year they build a great number of ships, and, in propojrtion to its population. Nova Scotia has a larger amount of "tonnage" than any other country in the whole world. (Hear, hear.) Another source of wealth ia poaaessed by that country, ever abounding, never failing. One would say that nature has especially favored it and en dowed it with the most bountiful of her gifts — I mean the rich mines of coal which super- abound in that country, which the hand of Providence has placed, as if by express de sign, not in tbe interior of the country, but along the sea side. Everybody knows that coal at tbe present day, wben steam does so much that the hand of man formerly did, is one of the principal aliments whicii nourish the industry of mankind through out the civilized world. Situated on the shores of the Atlantic, these mines can be worked very cheaply, and are easily acces sible to ships of all nations. The charges of loading are small indeed, there is scarcely any land carriage required to convey it to tho bays and ports to whioh the different trading ships resort for their lading. Geologists celebrated for their knowledge have explored theso ^ regions, and declare that there are thousands of square miles of coal, and in some places seventy-six beda or layera of coal one above the other. What a fertile source of revenue, of wealth ! And when we reflect that the main source of the prosperity of England has been and still is her mines of coal, small in comparison with those of Nova Scotia, we shall find that no change of circumstances, no political ties or relations could ever prevent that province from posseaaing in it,- coal meaaures, a aource, an element of wealth, in comparably greater than the famous gold and silver mines of Peru. Thousands of years must paas away, no doubt, before they will be cxhauated. I say nothing of the miues of gold, silver and copper, with whioh the country seems to be covered. And now, am I to be told that Canada, having the benefit of free trade with such a country, is to be no better for it ? Does not everybody know that firewood is beginning to run short in the district of Montreal and elsewhere in Lower 832 Canada, and that if we have no coal to take ita place, the country people will in thirty years' time be obliged to abandon their farms for want of means to enable them to bear tbe cold of our long wintera ? We ahall obtain wood from a diatance, some wiU tell you; but thinking men know very well that firewood is not to be carried far without great expense, which muat raiae the price ao aa to put it beyond the reach of the great majority of con sumers. Perhaps we shall find coal in Canada. No, saya Sir Wil. LoG-iN, our learned geologist — impossible; science tells us tbat it does not exiat. (Hear, hear.) Now every msm who has the least idea of public order, of political economy, muat be well aware that a mere commercial union, a union for the levying of customs — a "ZoUverein," in a woid — would not suffice to create the well- being and general prosperity of the five pro vinces. The Blaritime Provinoes are im mensely important to us in a social, indus trial, commercial, political, and especially a military point of view. New Brunawick has also considerable reaourcea. Looking at the . seasonablcneaa, and the other pointa making for the union of the provincea, we must not omit to consider it in ita relation to our meana of defenoj. In thia point of view, Newfound land ia of paramount iraportance. Caating a glance at it on the chart, we find it lying acroaa the Gulf of St. L-iwrence, comraandinj the two atraita by which the trade of the countriea aurrounding the gulf and the river reachea the ocean. Let that ialand but fall into the hands of foreignera, the trade of Can ada would in war time be aa completely atopped as if the ice of winter had erected ita permanent domicile in tho middle of the gulf. (Hear, hear.) These are the rcisona which have led our atateamen to aecure, by all poaai ble meaus, the aUiance of that province, aa they well underatood thit, that wanting, the Confederation would lose tho benefit of aU otber advantagea and would be in continual danger. The aeaboard of Newfoundland ia 1,2U0 milea in length, and it poaaeaaei.' the fineat harboura in tbe world, roadateads which might ahelter whole fleeta. The main aource of her wealth ia her fiaheriea, in which more than 30,000 men are annually engaged — men accuatomed to brave the wavea of a terapeatu- ous sea. Her trade in fiah with foreign na tions bringa her in contact with nearly all the maritime countriea of Europe, and with the Cnited Statea, and yet ahe haa at present scarcely any such connection with Canada. What ia her position with relation to ua at this moment ? Her merchants are forced to resort to the States to transact their business, for, in order to reach Montreal, they must pass through Halifax and Boston. The es- tablishmrnt of a line of steamers between tbat island and Canada would be a great ad vantage to both provinces; for Newfoundland possesaes what we want and requires what we have. It appears that the Island buys from the United States to the amount of several millions of doUars yearly, and exactly those articles which we are able to furnish ; and tbat the current of trade having taken ita preaent direction, ia owing to certain fiscal impediments to trade between the two pro vinces. With free trade, Newfoundland would buy from Canada woollen stuffs, cutlery and hardware — everything, in short, which she requires. Under Confederation, the town of St. Johns, in Newfoundland, would be the most easterly sea-port of the union, and by making it a port of call for our transatlantic stearaers, it would bring us within six days of the Blether Country. As to Prince Edward Island, that also has its importance. Its revenue is well managed ; it is in a prosperous state, and has no debt ; on the contrary, it has a considerable reserve fund. Accordingly, now is the time to take a step in the right direction. This union of the provinces is a political necesaity, and any delay would entail the danger of loaing the opportunity alto gether, which might never occur again. Can ada, with her immenae commerce, la indebted for her acceaa to the seaboard during six months of the year to the tolerant good-wiU of a neighboring nation. If that permiaaion were withdrawn, our merchanta muat import during the aummer all the gooda which they require in the year. This would, in the long run, be the loss of the consumer, because everything must, of course, be paid for at a higher rate. Finally — and this is the most important consideration of all for every one, and one which would of itself be sufficient to make ua deaire the union of the provincea — it would be tbe moat effectual means of procuring the building of the Intercolonial Railway — a road whicb would open an uninterrupted line of communication between Sarnia and Halifax, thus connecting the two extremities of the Confederation. Three things are necessary, nay, indispensable, to the prosperity of a great empire — the peraonal element, the territorial, and the maritime element. In Canada we have the peraonal and the territorial elementa ; the maritime element alone ia wanting, and thia we may obtain by the unijh of the provinces. 833 (Hear, hear.) As to us, French-Canadians and Catholics, what have we to fear from Con federation ? Our language, our rights and Our privileges are guaranteed to us. Look at the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland ; does it not consist of three distinct nations, holding several religious creeds ? Those three nations have fought side by side on sea and land for ages, against the enemies of their country. What glorious victories, what noble deeds in arms have they achieved I And the most perfect harmony exists among them. In England, are the Jews persecuted, deprived of their rights and privUeges ? Are the Roman Catholics? Is there not residing in the very capital of England a prince of the Romiah Church — Cardinal Wiseman? And, Mr. Speaker, who would have believed the fact ? — the last census shows that the city of London contains 100,000 Catholics more than Rome itaelf — Rome the aeat of the Ca tholic Church ! And a greater number of Jewa than there are in Judea or all Palea tine ! (Hear, hear.) And yet all these peo ple enjoy tbeir respective righta and privi legea, and worship tiieir Creator according to the traditions of their forefathers, unmolest ed, undisturbed by any. (Cheers.) I now come to the plan of Confederation considered intrinsically. I shall not enter into a discus sion of its details ; four members of the Ad ministration have given us explanations of it which were so clear and lucid, that it is use less to enter on the subject anew. There are, no doubt, certain points which are not all tbat we could desire ; there are certain articles which I should be disposed to reject if I were not aware that we are to look at the question from five different points of view, and not from one sectional point of view. I can conceive that the Conference con sidered the plan as a compromise — a treaty in which the five provinoes were the contracting parties; that many concessions were found to Le necessary, to satisfy the interests of indi viduals or of localitiea ; that great conciliation waa an important element, wit - a strong wish, by great conoesaiona on all sides, to carry forward an important negotiation, which in their abaence would have utterly faUed ! I am, moreover, convinced that the Ministers of Canada did everything in their power to promote and guard our general and local interests; that their only aim was to make us a great and strong nation ; that the dominant idea in their' minds was that "a Federal union," under the protection of England, would be for Canada a harbor of 106 refuge from all storms, particularly that which now assails us, as well as conducive to advance the best interests and the pros perity of all the provinces ; that this union would aecure to ua the continued enjoyraent of our laws an I inatitutiona, of our liberties and our relations with the Blother Country, while it would facilitate tho development of our national, social, commercial and politi cal proaperity. If we do not adopt it aa a whole, if we meddle with its clausea to make radical changes in it, the otber contracting parties, justly offended, will reject it wholly, as they understand that we have no right to depart from its proviaiona without their consent; or if, following our example, the Blaritime Provincea ahould alao make changea in it, the whole plan would be ao mutilated and diafigured, that it would become a mark for universal diaapprobation, and all the labora of the Conference would be ren dered uaeleaa and abortive. Moreover, if in' the meantime the Maritime Provincea, tak-' ing up again their old acheme of a union among themaelvea, should refuae to liaten to any overtures we might make, we should, like madmen, have loat the golden op portunity. Nothing would remain for ua but annexation to the United States — an idea most abhorren' to my feelings, but one which ia, perhapa, in reality, the cheriahed deaire of the unreaaoning opponenta ofthe preaent meaauie. (Hear.) Aa a British aubject, I find moat pleasure in that article of the scheme which declares the Sovereign of Great Britain to be the head of the Executive. The monarchical eleraent will predominate in the Constitution, and we shall thus escape that weakness which is inherent in the Constitution of the neighboring States. Their President, Mr. Speaker, is no more than the fortunate chief of a party ; he can never be regarded as the father of his people; his reign ia but temporary; he ia, for four years a kind of deapot, with unlimited power and it: mense patronage ; his favors fall on thoae only who have elected hira, and who can elect him anew at the expiration of four yeara; none feel the refreshing dewa of hia favora, save his party. Woe to the unlucky ones who have voted against him at his election ! For them there is no smile, no gracious accep tance, no favors. Under the working of our Constitution, on the contrary, as the seven ig!i ia permanent ("the King is dead — God save the King ! ") we have at aU times in him a father,^whose interest and whose 83 i inclination it ia to extend his protection equally over the cottage of the poor and over the palace of the rich, and to dispense e^al justice to both. (Cheers.) Our Ministers will still be responsible to the people. In the States, the President ia under no obliga tion to conault hia Cabinet, which ia compoaed merely of the heada of depart menta. In the scherae which now engages our attention, all matteis of general interest, which are not left to be diaposed of by the local legislaturea, will be aettled by the General or Central Government, and the diapoaal of local mattera will belong to the local govemmenta. Accordingly all necea sary power has been aaaigned to tbe general aa to the local legialaturea ; and that aource of weakneaa has been avoided which has been so frequent a cause of trouble in the neighboring States — the conflict of jurisdic tion and authority between single states and the Federal or Central authority. It ia really astonishing to see the different means employed by the journals in the interest cf the unreasoning opponents of the plan of Confederation. They utter cries of distress, amidst which the veil of party is easily seen through. According to their views, no good can come out ofthe syatem for either party in tbe commonwealth. "Think twice of what you are doing, you English Protestants of Lower Canada ! The Local Government will swallow you up," criea the Montreal Witness. " Take care of youraelvea, you French-Cana dians of the Catholic Church !" bellows the Montreal True Witness ; " if the plan of Con federation is sanctioned by the Legialature, you wiU diaappear like a dream : the hydra of the Central Government will poiaon you with ita peatiferoua breath." (Hear, hear.) And the otber journala of the same party, inapired by the aame apirit, open full cry on the plan of Confederation, aa nothing leaa tb^n a " political auicide !" Othera there are— and aorae in the interest of the preaent Government — who have aome miagivino-s, some doubta, touching the clauaea relating to marriage and divorce. With respect to the proviaiona of the instrument which beara on theae two important questions, they aeem at firat aight, I confeaa, a little alarming to Catholics — to us who have leamed from the Church the indissolubility of the marriage bond, who look upon raarriage not only as a civil contract, but " a sacrament." With reference to this subject, I answer that the system on which the new Constitution will be based is to be considered in the aspect which it bears to all the provinces. We are not all Catholics, and the majority are Pro testants. Again, if the control of matters connected with marriage and divorce had been assigned to the local govemmenta, what would have been the fate of our co-religion ists in Upper Canada, who are in a minority in that province ? Add to this, we have not in Canada at present any divorce law, and we need not apprehend that the Federal Government will impose one upon us. Nothing indicates that the proportion of Catholio members in the Federal Legislature will not be about equal to what itis in the Par liament of United Canada. Bloreover, every body is aware that it was by the help of the Protestants, who think aa we do on this aubject, that we have hitherto eacaped the passing of a divorce law. Divorce is not looked upon with a favorable eye by all Proteatanta ; far from it, and we muat hope that at no diatant time that aource of disorder and scandal of every apeciea will be effaced from the parliamentary recorda of every Chriatian community. (Hear, hear.) We must bear in mind, also, that there are Catholica elsewhere besides in Lower and Up per Canada ; they are to be found in all the Lower Provinces, and what would be their position if these questions were left to the local legislatures? The Catholics, there fore, of both Upper and Lower Canada, as well as those of the Lower Provinces, are directly interested in the removal of theae queationa from the local legialaturea. It aeema to me that every man who atudies this question in a Catholic point of view, as it stands in the five provincea, wUl find that the Conference was perfectly right in not leaving the question of divorce to the control of the local governments 1 shaU not enter into all the details ot the plan of Confederation, inasmuch as hereafter each of ita clauaea will be diacuaaed. I ahall reaerve, however, the right of adding afew worda. I think, therefore, Mr. Speakew, that every man who has the interests of his country at heart — every man who will take the pains to read history, the great teacher of kings and nationa, will be convinced that aituated as are the five provinces of British North America, separated, disunited, with no social, political or commercial ties to bind them together, but having tariffa calculated to injure each other, but no free interchange of commodities— without railwaya by which they might hold communication during the long winters, when the rivers are obstructed with 835 ice, and taking into consideration the excep tional position of Canada in respect of its near neighborhood to the United States, and the political troublea which have ao long wounded it in ita bosom — a Federal union of all the pro vinces is our only harbor of refuge, and the only means of securing to the Provinces of British North America sure and durable pros perity. (Hear, and cheers.) Now, Blr. Speak er, we have seen that iu ancient days, in the middle ages, and in modern times, states, provinces and kingdoms desirous of growing in strength, wealth and prosperity — desirous of acquiring power internally, and making themselves formidable to rivals abroad — desirous of means to repeal ambitious assail ants and enterprising neighbors — combined together — formed confederations with a view to increase the general prosperity, and the means of a commou defence and mutual pro tection. We have seen that it was the surest, the most rational, and the most generally adopted plan in all ages ; and wby should not we, profiting by tbe experience of others, do the same ? How long has union been a cause of weakness ? Is oot England, united under one ruler, infinitely more powerful than in the days of the Heptarcliy or Seven Kingdoms ? Are not the forty states which compose the Germanic Confed eration stronger, more powerful, united, than they would be if isolated and separate ? Wouli each individual state, if alone, left to its own resources, without free trade witb its neighbors, without social, political or com mercial relations, be richer, more proaperoua than it ia now, joined, united and allied to thereat? And in the United Kingdom of Great Britain, where a kind of Federal union is found, is not each nationality, every sect and every religion fully and entirely protected and guarded from the attacks of bigotry and of political and religious intoler ance ? After the States had separated from England in 1775, would they have done better to remain in the position of thirteen colonies detached from each other, without social, commercial, or political relations, as the colonies of British North America now aro, than to form a compact as they did ? Is it not from that union that their strength has grown, that they have become so powerful, so rich, so independent of the rest of the world, and the admiration of modern times ? So would they have continued to advance too, with giant strides, in the path of progress and improvement, if the demon of civil war had not arisen to break up a union but lately so happy and so pros perous ! Let us avail ourselves ot the example of others, and of the auspicious circumstances which seem to have occurred expressly and opportunely for our benefit, and let us resolve to become a great erapire. Is it not asserted that, if a union of the pro vinoes should be effected, we should be, at the least, the fourth maritime power in the world ? Are there not kingdoms — confeder ations — in Europe which would be numeri cally inferior to us ? Belgium has no more than 4,500,000 of inhabitants; Denmark, including the Duchies, no more than 2,500,000 ; the Kingdom of Bavaria, 4,500,- OOO; the Kingdom of Greece, 1,000,000 the States of the Church, 3,000,000 ; Por tugal, 3,500,000; Sweden, 3,500,000; Nor way, l,5OO,0OO ; the Helvetic Confeder ation, 2,5O0,OOO ; while the proposed Con federation will soon contain 5,000,000 ; a*d yet these provinces are but in their infancy, we may say. Any one who has the slightest knowledge of the natural riches and the resources of the five provinces, and of the energy and love of labor which characterise the different races which people them, may safely predict a brilliant future for our new Confederacy. (Hear, "hear.) Is there a single Canadian who does not know that Canada will always hold the first and most exalted poaition in tbe Confederacy ? Lower Canada, eapecially, will be the centre of the induatrial arta and commerce, the point towards which all the rich produce of the west, and the oil, fish and coal of the east, will naturally be brought; Lower Canada, especially, which is so rich in mines, ores, and minerala. Do we not know that certain great capitaliats have recently formed companies on a vast scale, to work the rich gold and silver mines of the district of Beauce ? Do not tbe geologists, who have explored that region, tell us that it contains copper, silver and gold, scattered in rich abundance over hundreds of square miles. (Cheers.) Canada possesses a territory of about 360,- 000 square miles— 1 60,000,000 of acres of land, of which 40,000,000 are con ceded ; 11,000,000 are under cultivation. Canada possesses above 2,000 miles of rail way, which intersect the province in all directions ; it has 4,500 miles of telegraph line ; it poaaeaaea, moreover, 250 milea of canal, which carried, in 1863, 3,000,000 tona of freight, and gave a revenue to the Pro vincial Government of nearly 1400,000. (Hear, hear.) There are hundreds of 836 rivers in Canada, three of -which, with their tributaries, water a surface of 150,000 square miles. Five or six of tbe lakes cover a surface of 84,000 square miles. The mails are carried over 15,000 miles of road, in which distance there are 2,000 post-offices, which annually distribute 1 1,00",00'J of lettera, besides newapapera. fHear, hear.) The mineral wealth ot Canada is alraoat fabuloua, and awaita only the introduction of EngUsh and American capital to aatoniah the world. (Hear, hear.) The Acton copper mine, in Lower Canada, ia perhapa the richeat exiating. The copper mines of Lake Superior are already famoua for their extent and the richness of the ore ; and the iron minea of St. Blaurice and Lake Superior are auppoaed to be inexhauatible. According to Sir William Logan, our learned geolo- giat, there are iron minea of great value in the seignicry of Vaudreuil and on the out- sfirts of the pariah of St. Blartha, in the county of Vaudreuil.. The diggings in the auriferous river of the Chaudiere and the Gilbert, in the Eaatern Townahipa, have been very productive during the laat two yeara. A new company haa juat been formed at New York, with a capital of five milliona of dollara, to work on the Chaudiere. The capital atock of the corapanies and private peraona uow engaged in thia pursuit ia reckoned by railliona. The Trade Returns shew that tbe produce of the mine exported from Canada has been nearly nine hundred thouaand doUara. The manufac turea of Canada are extenaive. Those of lumber occupy upwarda of two thouaand aaw- mUla, which tum out annually nearly eight million feet of timber. There are more than two hundred diatillcriea and breweriea which produced laat year more than nine million gallona of apirituoua or fermented liquora, yielding an exciae duty of more than $700,000. (Hear, hear.) These dis tilleries and breweriea conaume raore than 1,500,000 bushela of grain and raalt. The counti-y containa at leaat l.UOO griat milla for the grinding of wheat' and oata; 250 carriage facloriea, nearly 201.) foundriea, 200 carding railla, 130 cloth milla, and 500 tanneriea. Other eatabliahmenta of lesa account are innuraerable. Canada producea annm.'lly between 25,000,000 and30,00l).000 buahela of wheat, 12,000,000 buahela of peaa, 40,000,000 buahela of oata, more than 1,500,000 tona of bay, 13,000,000 buahela of buckwheat, 28,000,000 bushels of potatoes. and 10,000,000 buahela of turnipa. Canada conaumes 30,000,000 pounds of beef, shears 5,500,000 pounds of wool, and makes from 42,000,000 to 45,000,000 pounds of butter. The cattle, milch cows, horses, sheep and pigs owned in Canada are above two millions in number. The fisheries yield to the value of two million dollars annually. It appears that Lower Canada alone owns 2,500 fiahing veaaela. The Magdalen Ialanda, whicii belong to Canada, send out to the fiaheries 270 boats. The capital stock of the banks in Canada, which have a charter, amounts fo $33,000,000. Here is real wealth, and yet our country is still in ita infancy, if I may be allowed to uae the expresaion ; and the third part of this beautilui country is stUl uninhabited ; what wUl it be when inhabited, cleared and settled in every direction ? From all quarters men will come — some to obtain a nook of land whicb they can really call their own ; others to escape from the horrors of civil war and the ruinous taxes which bow them down to the earth- Here we have peace and tranquiUity — good air— room enough — a superabundance of land — and the virgin foreat wooing the axe of tbe woodman, to be converted into fertile farma; here, above all, we have the " birth-right of man," liberty in all its purity. (Hear, hear.) It is time, Canadians, that we should withdraw from the political dilemma in whioh we are involved. If we reject the plan of Confederation, we fall back into a speciea of status quo ; now, for a new country like oura, to remain stationary is to retrogade ! Let us not forget that British North America contains other provinces besidea these of oura, namely, Britiah Col umbia, Vancouver, &o. , which will hereafter form a part of the Confederation ; th.-t those vast countriea are in extent aa large aa all Europe ; that the soil in many places is of marvellous fertility ; that the day will come when the greater part of all those countries and provinces will be inhabited; that there will be a net-work of railway connecting the extremities of all tbose possessiona, and linea of steamboats connecting ua, not with the Mother Country only, but with the whole of Europe, and that at all aeasons of the year. When we all, without exception, animated by the same spirit, struggling after the good, after the prosperity of our common country, shall see riaing around ua a vaat empire under the protectorate of England, we shall then underatand the political saga city of those who, now steering the vessel 837 of State, have brought before us and car ried through the scbeme of Confederation proposed. There may be certain faults of detail in the system : I grant that there are. But does not every work of man bear the impress of imperfection ? Is the celebrated Code Napoleon perfect? The most cele brated French lawyers do not think it so; and yet this production is a master-piece of legialation in many reapecta. Doea not the Conatitution of the United States contain faults ? aud yet it is said to be a model work of its kind. I am of opinion that the plan of Confederation, taken as a whole, is the best we could desire or hope for, adapted, aa it had to be, to the well-understood interests of the five provinces, x'o consider it from a purely sectional point of view, would be to misunderstand the position which a atatesman .should occupy. If however, BIr. Speaker, the unreasoning opponents of the propoaed measure were able to suggest any means of meeting eventualities, and point out a way by which, while rejecting the scheme proposed, we might find some prac tical mode of escape from our difficulties, I should then be disposed to listen to them, and to compare their scheme with that which is now before us ; but those gentle men think it sufficient to blame and criticise. The celebrated BIr. Rameau even (the author of La France aux Colonies), from his retirement in diatant France, aenda forth a cry of alarra at the dangers with which he thinks Coufederation is pregnant, but not a word of good counsel or of a better remedy of his own. Others cry aloud from the houae-tops that this scheme is not a " Federal union," but a Legislative one in every point 1 If it were so, Mr. Speakek,, I ahould be the firat — and I proclaim it uere before the whole country — I should be the first to scout and reject the soheme with all the power which Providence has given rae ; but as it is, on the contrary, a Federal union, in the full force of the term, having a Central Government invested with all the power neceaaary to obviate and remedy the weakneaa which characteriaea Federal Government in the American union, giving, in a apecial manner, to each province the management of ita own local affaira, and to ita inhabitants full and unrestricted power to make ita own lawa, I cannot, for the interest of my constituents, for my country's interest, help approving of a mea sure which, while it respects the rights and privileges of all, will have the effect of increasing the individual and collective atrength of the five provinces, will secure to us the confidence of the Mother Country, and make of thia aection of British North America, under the powerful segia of Eng land, another imperium in imperio. (Cheera.) I return to thoae whoae cry ia, " But our nationality wiU be loat! Our language, our civil and reUgious institutiona will disap pear." 0 ye who cry so loudly, and who find such charma in the neighboring re public, do you think that if we fell into that whirl of divera nations and different religions composing the American Confed eracy, which haye no common traditiona nor common hiatory with us, French-Canadian nationality would long enjoy a separate exiatence, or that it would not speedily be lost amidst so many otheia ? Anawer if you can, and I wiU believe you. (Cheqps.) Conaider the fate of Louiaiania, inhabited chiefly by French ! Ia not the English element in a majority in the Parliament of United Canada ? And have I not, never theleaa, the honor to addreaa you at this moment in French ? in that beautiful lan guage of our ancestors in which Jacques Cartier, in 1535, extolled the glories of our majestic St. Lawrence ! (Cheera.) Would you know one of the reasons assigned againat General Fr:6mont when he waa a candidate for the Preaidency of the United Statea a few yeara ago ? " I)o not vote for Fr:!Smont," waa the cry on tbe huatings and in the papera of the day; " FrSmont ia a Frenchman" — " Fremont is a Catholic" — and FriSmont loat hia election accordingly. However, FR:fiMONT waa not a Catholic 1 but they aaid he waa, and it waa a crime suffi cient in their eyes to disqualify bim in his candidateahip for their confidence, notwith atanding tbat they proclaim " liberty of con acience !" (Bear, hear.) Do they reject a man in England bc-'auae he ia a Catholic ? Does that faot debar him from enjoying the confidence of his Sovereign and his fellow- citizens ? Certainly it does not, and there are inatancea to prove it. Have we not often seen, in Canada, Catholics repreaenting coun tiea eaaentially Protestant? Was not the county of Vaudreuil, a county in which Catholics are a majority, lately represented by an English Protestant ? Why should the Engliah, under the Confederatiou, seek to deatroy French-Canadian nationality? What interest could they serve in doing so ? In 838 1775, and in 1812, the French-Canadians, at the call of their clergy, roae as one man to defend the Crown oi England. (Hear, hear.) What intereat have the Enaliah to induce them to aweep away our religioua institu tions ? In what school or coUege are youth educated with greater talent or greater success — where do they receive a more thorough classical education — than in our colleges ? Where does a young man learn his duty to God, to himself, to his country and to his Sovereign better than in our Catholic colleges ? (Cheers.) I pasaed ten years of my life, Mr. Speaker, in a Catholic college, that of Montreal, and if I did not profit by the instruction I re ceived, mine is the fault; in that house, I heard none but the counsels of wisdom, saw only examples of virtue in the venerable priests who were intrusted with tbe care of my^outh. (Cheers.) Where is better in struction in agriculture to be had — agricul ture, the source of the prosperity of a country — than in two or three Catholic coUeges in Lower Canada? Who has better appreciated the force of the maxim, " The soil is the country," than the CathoUc clergy ? What are the model farma founded by the Govem ment compared with the model farms of two or three of our collegea ? (Hear, hear.) Ia it tbe Catholic clergy themaelvea who would be endangered by the Confederation ? There ia not a aingle right-thinking Engliahman in the land who will not atand up and teatify to the virtuea ofour clergy and their uaef'ul- neas in the country ! Wherever there is an aaylum to be built, or a houae of refuge for the poor, the inaane, the aged or the orphan, then and there you aee the clergy foremoat in the work, first to set tbe example, and often defraying all the coat ! (Hear, hear.) If tbe Queen of England deairea to see a faithful subject, on thia aide ofthe Atlantic, She will as,suredly find him in the ranks of the clergy ! If the country calla ibr a zeal ous citizen , animated by the noblest patriotiam, the call will first be answered unmiatakably by a priest — ly one of those men who seek no other reward ibr their actiona than the approbation of their own conacience — by one of those wbo perfectly comprehend the maxim that " the poetry of life ia the fulfil ment of duty"— by one of those wise but modest men, as humble as they are pious, who, standing ever constant at the post which Providence has assigned to them, instruct the young, encourage the good, seek to bring back the sinner into the paths of virtue, obey the laws and teach that obedience to others, pray daily for the happiness and prosperity of " Our Gracious Sovereign" and of the Blother Country, visit the poor in garret and cellar, soothe the sufferings, moral and physical, of the sick and dying, and finally point out the road to heaven — they them selves leading the way ! (Prolonged cheers.) What have such men to fear from Confeder ation ? Nothing. No, Mr. Speaker, such men have nothing to fear ! England loves and reveres our clergy, and sees in them loyal and faithful subjects of the Queen. (Cheers.)' Would you see an instance of what the Catholic clergy can do when the country wants a man of courage ? All know that the country is in a political dilemma, that the machine of government is at a stand, that the sound of a mighty tempest is heard from afar ; that fhe fate of the country is traced out in feeble and wavering lines in an uncertain future, over shadowed with threatening clouds filling a void of conjecture and doubt; that the moraent is come for the true friends of their country — fbr men of education — to declare their views on the course to be taken to save the country from the danger impending and the perUs of actual events. Well, here too we have a member of the Catholic clergy boldly standing forth to give his opinion on the subject, and counael ua in this melan choly crisis I I will read to you an extract of the letter of the Catholic Archbishop Conngllt of Halifax, on the aubject of Confederation : — Instead of cursing, like the boys in the up turned boat and holding on until we are fairly on the brink of the cataract, we muat at once begin to pray and strike out for the shore by all means, before we get too far down on the current. We must, at thia most critical moment, invoke the Arbiter of nations for wisdom, and abandoning iu time our perilous position, we must strike out boldly, and at aome riak, for some rock on the nearest shore — some reating place of greater security. A cavalry yaid visit from our Fenian frienda through the plaina of Canada and the fertile valleys of New Brunawick and iMova Scotia, m^y cost more in a single week than Confederation for the next fifty years; aud if we are to believe you, where ia the aecurity, even at the present moment, against such a disas ter? 'Without the whole power of the Mother Country by land and sea, and the concentration in a single hand of all the atrength of Britiah Ame rica, our condition ia seen at a glance. Whenever the present difficulties will terminate-aud who can 839 tell the moment ? — we shall be at the mercy of bur neighboia ; and victorioua or otherwiae, they -will be eminently a military people, and -with all their apparent indifference about annexing this country, and all the friendly feelings that may be talked of, they will have the power to strike when they please, and thia la preciaely the kernel and the only touch-point of the whole question. No nation ever had the power of conqueat that did not use it, or abuse it, at the very first favorable opportunity. All that is said of the magnanimity and forbearance of mighty nationa can he explain ed on the principle of aheer expediency, aa the world knows. The wtiole face of Europe has been changed, and the dynaatiea of many hundred yeara have been awept away within our own time, on the principle of might alohe — the oldest, the strongeat, and aa some would have it, the most sacred of titles. The thirteen original stateS of America, with all their profesaiona of self- denial, have been all the time, hy money power and by war, and by negotiation, extending their frontier until they more than quadrupled their ter ritory within sixty years ; and believe it who may, are they now of their own accord to come to a full stop ? No ; aa long as they have the power, they muat go onward ; for it ia the very nature of power to grip whatever is within ite reach. It is not their hostile feelinga, therefore, but it ia their power, aud only their power, I dread ; and I now state it as my solemn conviction, that it becomes the duty of every British aubject in these provincea to control that power, not by the insane policy of attacking or weakening them, but by strengthening ourselves — rising, with the whole of Britain at our hack, to their level, and so he prepared for any emergency. There is no sensible or unprejudiced man in the community who does not see that vigorous and timely pre paration is the only possible means of saving ua from the horrors of a war such as the world has never seen. To be fully prepared is the only practical argument that can haye weight with a powerful enemy, and make him pause beforehand and count the cost. And as the sort of prepara tion I speak of is utterly hopeless without the union of the provinces, so at a moment wheu pubhc opinion is being formed on thia vital point, aa one deeply concerned, I feel it a duty to declare myself unequivocally in favor of Confederation as cheaply and aa honorably obtained as posaible — but Confederation at all hazards and at all reasonable sacrifices. After the most mature consideration, and all the argumenta I have heard on both aides for the last month, these are ihy inmoat oouviofions on the necessity and merits ofa measure which alone, under Providence, can securejjto.jua 'isocial order, peace, and rational liberty, and all the bleaainga we now enjoy under the mildeat Government and the hallowed institu tions of the freest and happiest country in the world. This letter is dated^in January, 1865. The Catholic Bishop of'the Ialand of NeWfouhd- land, Monseigneur Mullooh, has' also written a magnificent letter in favor of Oonfederati-^n. Moreover, Mr. Speaker, when the time comes, our Catholic clergy — our Canadian clergy — will make their voices heard in favor of the proposed measure, and will show" the whole world that now, as formerly, tbey can keep pace with the times — that they can distinguiah the true from the falae, and that their paternal eyes watch with the tenderest solicitude over the destiniea of their children. (Loud cheera.) Now, BIr. Speaker, let ua oast a glance over the English colonies in Australia. They, like us, are desirous of taking steps to form a Confeder.ttion, to break frora their state of isolation, stretching forth their arms to each other as beloved aiafera, and making efforta to lay the founda tion of a great empire on the diatant sho'.es of Oceania. (Hear, hear.) As to ouraelvea, let tas ahow England that our hearta yearn to maintain our connection with her, and she will spend her laat aoldier and laat shilling to keep and defend us againat all the vrorld, and to aaaist us to become a great and powerful nation Back ! back ! those who think that England will r^aat ua off, and leave ua to our hard fate. Back ! all thoae who, like Bright, Cobden, Go:.dwin Smith, and othera of that achool, weary the ear with crying that England loaea more than ahe gains by her colonies ! They are confronted by the logic of facta. England, without her coloniea, would be a power of the aecond class. Let us hear wbat Mr. Laing, late Minister of Finance for India, said, in answer to Goldwin Smith and others :— I would have you observe, said he, that our for eign possessions are by far our best custoraers. Taken together, they make up nearly a third of our import trade, and a half of our export trade , British India holds the first place on the list, and givea ua nearly £50,000,000 sterling of imports, taking in return £20,000,000 of e.x:port8. In the present year these figures will be greatly exceeded, and the rate of progress is more diatinctly marked : the importa having been, 10 years ago, £10,672,000 only, and the exports £9,920,009. We find in Australia still raore astonishing re sults, if we consider the recent date of her estab lishment as a colony, and her limited pijpulation. Besides gold, she aends ahout £7,000,000 of im ports, and takea from ua £13,000,' 00 of exports. The North American colonies, with a population also British, give us £8,00'', 000 of imports, and take from us nearly £5,000,O0ii of exports. The small island of the Mauritius, which enjoys British Government and thrives with British capi tal, sends us nearly £2, 000, i '00 worth per year, ahd takes in return £5,000,000. These figures clearly ahow the advantages derived to commerce 840 from"colonies, and confute the false theoriea of those meu'who would persuade us to abandon our distant possessions as uselesa. Obaerve, Mr. Speaker, that theae enormoua amounts are not in dollars, but pounds ster ling : each pound being worth nearly five dollars of our money. This is information for those who think that colonies are of no importance to England ; that they add noth ing to her grandeur, her power, or her com merce ! Those who know anything at all of England, know perfectly well that she is an eaaentially commercial nation— perhaps the moat commercial nation in the world— tbat "that nation of ahop-keepera," as it vaa called by Napoleon L, haa always found in ita commerce the chief element of ita atrength ; for with commerce comea money, from money men to carry on ita wara. The ancient Romans knew how to conquer provincea, countriea, kingdoms, be cause their geniua waa eaaentially warUke ; but they did not know how to keep tbem, because they had not what chiefly diatin- guishea England — a geniua for commerce. Accordingly, when the Engliah make them selvea maatera of any territory, you imme diately aee a crowd of tradera ruah into it, build atores, find out the reaources of the country, and next come a body of aoldiera to aecond the authority of juatice, and enforce respect for law and order. In a abort space of time you see a nation, but lately barbarian , buried in sloth and inaction, shake off the slough of infancy, assume a different aspect, grow rich and prosperous, and in turn coCperate in adding to the greatness of tbe Mother Country, (^Hear, hear.) Yes, Mr Speaker, England is bound to keep us. Losing ua, ahe would, at a future day, loae her Weat Indian posseaaions, and would enter on the first phase of an eclipse which she is too far-seeing not to anticipate and avoid. (Hear, hear.) England aees with pleasure the efforts which our Government ismaking to carry out the union of all tbe provinces, and looks upon our future union as a step in the right direction — the only practical means of increaaing our reaourcea aud strengthening our power. One word, Blr. Speak i-.R, on the appeal to the people. There are three claasea of men in aociety : those who deceive, those who are deceived, and thoae who are ueither deceivers nor deceived. I take my place advisedly among the laat. I will not rank aa a deceiver ; and as I have promised my constituents that I would lay before them, and explain the scherae of Confederation, with all its details, before giving my vote finally, I am at all times ready to do so. For the present, I shall vote purely and aimply for tbe "reao lutiona," becauae I am in favor of the principle of Confederation, and becauae, hereafter, when the Blinistry shall have laid befoie us the plan for the local govemmenta with its details, then will be the time to demand an appeal to the people, if my county requires it of me. To aak for it only with reierence to the principle of Confederation, and to ask for it again when we shall have the plan and all the details relating to the local governments, would bean absurdity; for it would be a double appeal to the peo; le on two parts of the same scbeme of Confed eration, and ctmaequently two electiona on the back of each other — a needleaa exceaa of expense aud trouble, both for tbe country and the members. We must bear in mind that after the two electiona conatituting the double appeal to the people, we muat have atill more general electiona to inaugurate the new Parliament, for the preaent aeasion is the third of thi? ParliamenI. I would not be one of the deceived ; and I should be so in a striking degree if I allowed myaelf to be cajoled by the gentle purringa of the Oppoaition, who make a ahow of agitation for the appeal to the people, only that they may have an opportunity, at any coat, of defeating the scheme of Confederation. I maintain, BIr. Speaker, that the Oppoaition have not the slighteat wiah to go to the country ; and why ? becauae if the Oppoai tion had really and truly wiahed for an appeal to the people, they would at any time, witbin tbis laat fortnight at least, have made a motion in thia House expressive of their deaire — as a preliminary — for such an appeal ! The House haa been debating this measure three or four weeka, but the Oppo aition have not shewn the least diapoaition to move for an appeal to the people ; and, when it ia too late, they will come forward with such a motion — (hear, hear)- — and then, when they do not curry it, tbey would go crying throughout the land, in town and country, that if the people have had no voice in the buainess, it ia no fault of theirs; that they moved heaven and earth — but such was the bull-headed obstinacy of the Ministry, it waa not to be obtained ; and the people will believe them; and we, who are the real, the beat friends of the people, we shall be pointed at as the real 811 criminals ! Poor people ! why do you allow yourselves to be deceived ? If the Ministers are desirous of pushing on the measure, it is because of the check which the Ministry of New Brunswick have just had, aud because it is for us to use all diligence to show the Mother Country that we do not hang fire, but are ready to do our part to carry out the treaty or compromise agreed on by the delegates at the Conference held at Quebec. It is time we should do some thing to improve our position; for the intended revocation of the treaty of recipro city, the probable abolition ofthe "transit" system, and other tokens of ill-feeling with which President Lincoln's Message of the present year is filled, arc enough to warn us to prepare to meet the storm which is blowing up on the political horizon, that we ought immediately to look out for better shelter than we have at present. (Hear.) If, hereafter, an appeal to the people, relative to the plan and details of the local govern ments, becomes neceasary, I am convinced that a majority of the counties of both Canadas will understand their true interests, wUl be able to distinguish tlieir real friends from those who aim at deceiving them by flattering their prejudices, and that we shall be sent back to this place with full powers to vote the final adoption of the scheme of Confederation. (Cheers.) But if I, for one, ara civilly told that I must stay at home, I shall have the satisfaction of saying that I have fallen like a man who preferred his duty to a fleeting popularity ; and although it may be an easy matter for the fair and inteUigent county of Vaudreuil to send to this House, as its representative, a member more competent in many respects than I am, I venture to affirm that it will be difficult to find any one who has more at heart than I have tbe interests, the happiness and the proaperity of hia oountry 1 (Continued cheera.) I have abundant reason to believe that the people will comprehend the position of tbe country, will aee that a meaaure ofthis kind is necessary — nay, indispensable, and thatwhen once theunion of the five provincea of Britiah North America has been perfectly settled, we shall enter on a new era, an era of progreaa in all thinga — industrial, manu facturing and commercial, and shall begin to take a prominent place among the nationa of thia vast continent; the people will under stand, finally, that the veasel of the state has fallen into the hands of able pilots, well quaUfied to take it into port, notwithstanding 107 the storms and rocks with which its course isheset. CCheers.) I for one, Mr. Speaker, have full confidence in our future in the bosom of Confederation . The day is, I think, not lar distant when the " Good Genius" - who rules over the future destiny of the new Empire of British North America will ory aloud, with one foot on the shores of the Pacific while the other rests on that of the Atlantic — " All this is ours This wealth, these fair fields, those pretty hamlets, those vast cities, in which thousands of people enjoy the fruits of their toil, and live without fear under the English flag, belong to us ! See those factories, those works of all kinds, those canala and railwaya crossing each other in every direction, fostering trade throughout the length and breadth of this vast domain ! We arc now a numerous and a mighty people — our population has grown — Europe has con tri buted its contingent of brave and courageous hearts, who have been attracted hither by the hope of an amount of happiness and prosperity which their native country had denied them." Then too, this "Good Genius," turning his eyes in the direction of Great Britain, will say with truth — "Blother, behold your eldest-born, worthy of such a parent !" (Cheers.) And posterity, glorying in their ancestors, will exclaim — " Behold the fruits of the conacientioua and patriotic labors of that chosen band of thirty-three, who sat in high conference at Quebec, in October, 1864." (Loud cheera.) Hon. Attt. Gen. CARTIER— After bearing the eloquent and talented apeech which the hon. member for Vaudreuil has just delivered, I have one emotion of regret: it is, that the venerable anceator of that gen tleman (the Hon. Alain Chartier de Lotbiniere), who waa one of the first Speakera called to the Chair of the Legiala tive Assembly of Lower Canada, whose por trait adorns this House, has not, from the tomb, heard the accents — the well-considered, loyal and heart-felt expressions of his descendant. How justly would he have been proud of him ! (Cheera.) Hon. BIr. LAFRABIBOISE— Mr. Speak er, the honorable member for Vaudreuil asked, a moment ago, wbat we French-Cana diana had to fear under Confederation ? WeU, I will tell him at once, or rather when his friends have done congratulating hira. The honorable gentleman read ua a couple of letters from bishops of the Lower Provinoes in order to convince us that all must bo for the best under Confederation for our Catholic 842 population ; with tbe permission of thia hon orable House, I wiU rean for his benefit the letter of a Lower Canadian priest, who, having the advantage of a somewhat closer view of thinga than the biahopa of the Blaritime Pro vincea, ia in a better position to judge whether our apecial institutions and our nationality will be sufficiently guaranteed under the Federal ayatem now about to be ii.poacd upon ua. (Hear, hear.) This letter appeared in the Canadien : — To the Editor of the Canadien. Sir, — Il the Confederation of the provincea may be considered a thing decided upon, there is neveitheless no deujingthe fact ihatilie minds of the people are filled with a tear aud anxiety which nothing can remove. I have read the speeches ofour representatives; I have heaid their explan ations ; and far from being reassured, I am more uneasy than ever. The necessity of Coufederation has indeed heen demonstrated, but Has there heen any attempt to explain certain clauses of a dangerous character in a French-Canadian and Catholic point of view ? Promises, eulogies, dazzling pictures of our iuture prospects, figures more or less successfully £-rouped,all these we have had ad nauseam ; but what I have looked for in vain is a satisfactory explanation as to our future liberty of action under Confedeiation. With your permission, sir, 1 will state as briefly aa pos sible my objections to the scheme of Confeder ation, ; nd the features which cause it to be dreaded so much by almost all those who have studied it 1 leave aside the question of divorce; tbe ecclesiastical authorities beiug silent upon the matter, I do net pretend to be' more Catholic than the Pope. Let e\ery one bear his own responsibility. When, at some tuture day. Catholic Lower Canada will be dishonored by the presence of a divorce court, e\ err one will, no doubt hasten to wash his hands ot the matter, and re|iudiaie all responsibility for ***** the circumstauces in which we are placed. My ob jections 10- Confedeiation as proposed, are — fiist, the dangerous ceiitializatiou it establishes • second, the enoimous expense it entai.s. Cen tralization I Jjehold the great danger of modern governments. In place of endeavoiiug to conier on each ofour provincea the greatest measure of liberty compatible with a central power, one would fanty that our Ministers had done their best to leave us but the very smallest measure possiljle. In endeavoring to avoid the excess of power vested in the states of the American Con federation, they have given us a scheme tolerably closely copied from the Swiss Confederation. They wished to avoid state independence, whieh caused the war between the North and the South, and they expose us to a new Sondeibund with all its disasters. Let us see what are the powers of the Central Government, and the rights of the provinces, and of Lower Canada in° particular, under our Confederation. The Central Govern ment will be composed of — first, an elective Chamber, baaed on population ; aecond, a Senate; third, an Executive Council, and Kesponsible Ministers, and a Governor. The Lower Houae will he composed of 194 membeia. Of these 194 sixty-five will be Lower Canadians, and fifty French-Canadians. In theHouse of llepiesenta- tives we ahall therefore be one to thiee, or, if we count as French-Canadians, 1 to 4. How many Lower Canadiana or French-Canadians are we to have in the Executive Council ? One, peihap.=( ; two at most. Such is the measure of our influ ence in the Central Government. And this is the Government that is to appoint our aenatora after the firat selection is made. It will appoint, or rather impose upon us, a governor. It will have the power of veto over all our local measures. It will also enjoy that power through the gov ernor, its creature 1 Was there ever a more dangerous centrahzation ? What liberty of action, then, is there left to, our legislature V An Orangeman will perhapa be sent to govern us ; and what can we say ? Our senators will he selected, if it should please the central power, from the ranks of our enemiea ; to whom shall we apply for redreas ? All our most cherished local measures, our acts of incorporation, will he re served or vetoed ; and who will redress our grievances ? But all theae are mere imaginary dangers I Imaginary, forsooth I Heaven grant that they may be 1 But do we not know the Orange men ? is not the example of Ireland befo.e our eyes? But the Sonderbuud war! Be quiet, we are told ; men ao well tried, so honoiable as our leaders, would never propose the measure ibr our adoption if it could possibly be of a fatal charac ter. I do not desire, iu any way, to accuse our statesmen or to question their motives. But have our statesmen always avoided contradiction — dan gerous measures? Is it prudent to trust solely to men, without scrutinizing their measuies ? What of the e.\-perieuce of the past? What of the maxim, " Measures, not men ?" "Fear not," we are told again, "none ofthe dangei s you fear can arise; the thing is impossible." Impossi'ole 1 Why, then, leave a possibility of danger iu the law ? Why so much haste with a measuie of such importance? The authors of the Constitu tion ot the United States labored for months and years at the draft of their Confederation, and after eighty yeai a it is Iound defective. Our statesmen elaborate a Conathution iu a lew days, lu the midst ofthe noisy rejoicings of hospitality, aud we are told that Constitution is perlect I ""Ton must not touch it; you shall not amend It." ^ But, we say, it contains dangerous clauses, it gives our enemies power to annihilate us. Ihe answer is : " Be silent I It is th.- cieation of our Ministers, our leaders I Trust iu their honor, m their talents." Excellent reasons, no doubt 1 And yet, strange to aay, people are still uneasy, still distrustful 1 But, are not the clergy, are not the people for Confederation? As to the clero-y no i they are not all for your Confederation as it la proposed. A great many of them, it is tiue, teel no uutasinesa, and trust all to oui- statesmen ¦ 843 but many of them, also, dread it, and would wiah to see it amended. As to the people they know nothing about your acheme, and until the time (jomes when they shall undergo the ordeal of taxes and imposts, they will, I fancy, exhibit the utmost indififereuce. But let the Confederation be carried out, let the fabuloua expenaes be com menced connected with the defence of the coun try, the support of a railitia. the creation of a marine, the construction of the Intercolonial Railway and other public works, and, aa the pro verb aava, "Time will tell." Yea, we shall then perceive the disastrous results of this measure, but it will be a little too late. I now come to mj second objection to the scheme of Confedera tion. With your permission I shall treat it on a future occasion. A Citizen. Quebec, March Gth, 1865. Well, Mr. SPE.iKER, if I am not miataken, that reverenl gentleman, a member of our clergy, aeema to be somewhat leaa convinced than our Blinisters and the honorable member for Vaudreuil of the safety of our religious interests, and of our nationality. Are not his expressions sufficiently eoergetic and aignifi cant. But let ua now see whether the rever end gentleman haa grounds for his alarm, and whether he is not aomewhat carried away by hia zeal and patriotic anxiety for the welfare of his fellow-countrymen. Let us see whether, on the contrary, he does not appreciate more correctly than our Lower Canada Ministera the poaition in which we ahall be placed by Confederation. I think we ahall be enabled tojudge from an article which appeared in a late number of the organ of the Honorable Preaident of the Council. The Toronto Globe of the Gth Blarch in'at., — a paper which is now one of the principal organs of tbe preaent Governmeut— publiaiies an article, written perhaps by the Honorable President of the Council himself, in which I find the following kindly expresaion applied to our honored clergy : — We trust that thoae well-mearing hut miataken friends of the Common School system of Uppei Canada, who have been censuring the educational agreement in the Quebec resolutiona, will now see something of its value. Bishop Lynoh's bold letter ahould he a warning to ua all how utterly unsafe our schools are under the present Constitution. The Romish Church ia ever ag gressive — getting to-day conceaaiona with which it proteases to be entirely satisfied, only to come hack and demar.d new onea at the first oppor tunity. (Under our present parliamentary syatem, it ia never safe to aay that the Romiah bishops in Canada cannot, with a little labor, get all they may ask. Under Confederation, while gladly " crying quits" and leaving them what they now have and can keep in apite of ua, we should be placed in a position to refuse them anything more. But lot our preaent Conatitution laat five yeara longer, and the chances are that the new demands ofthe hierarchy will be conceded.) If tbe honorable gentleman is not satisfied now that the fears of the clergy are well founded, I really cannot aee how he can pos sibly be convinced. (Hear, bear.) That honorable meirf!?er gave us a splendid and perfectly just eulogium of the admirable merits and devotedness of our Lower Canadian clergy — an eulogium which expreaaea the thought of every man who haa any feeling of admiration for deaerving merit, wherever it may befound, and whatever may be hia own nationality or religion — an eulogium which I endorae with ray whole heart. (Hear, hear.) But, Mr. Speaker, I am not the lesa convinced that everything foreabadowed by the extract I have juat read from the Globe ia deatined to occur one day, if we adopt the meaaure now before ua. And wbat is the meaning of the petitions pouring in every day by thousands , why all these crosses aflixed to these energetic and patriotic protests — crosses formed by rude hands guided by noble hearts ? (Hear, hear.) I will tell you, Mr. Speaker, why there are so many crosses ; it ia becauae, previous to the union of the Canadas, the Legialative Council was composed of enemies ofthe Lower (Janadians, who refuaed, for a great number of yeara, to make even the moat paltry granta for our Lower Canada achoola. Thanks to this tyrannical proacription, the schools were closed by hundreda, and the children of our people were un ible to obtain the benefita of educa tion, of which tbey would moat certainly have availed theraaelvea. Hence it is that fihe petitions pourini; in upon us from all quarters, to proteat againat the oppreaaion 'about to be established, are in great part aigned with croaaea — crosaea certainly of equal value with the magnificent aignatures of certain honor able membera of this Houae, who have at tempted fo tum into ridicule the aignatures of these petitions. At that period, Mr. Speaker, the Canadian clergy were, as they are to-day, the leaders of the education movement, and the British oligarchy did aU in its power to contract the limits of their noble work — the education of the children of the soil. (Hear, hear.) But thanka to the conatant and ener getic proteats of patriotic men — thanka to the struggles they maintained for many a long year — struggles which culminated at last in open rebellion against the authority of Great Britain — we gained the libertiea we now enjoy. And with .reference to the rebellion, I think 844 the Honorable' Attorney General 'East must remember that he hiraaelf waa one of thoae who raised the flag of freedom at St. Charlea, and donned tbe cap of liberty. At tbat period, Mr. Speaker, the Honorable Attor ney General Eaat did not shrink from open rebellion againat the Crown, in order to aecure what be considered the legitimate libertiea of hia fellow-citizena ; to-day he does not shrink from a baronetcy, the reward of the _ treason he is prepared to consummate against hia aame fellow-citizena. (Hear, hear.) I aaid a moment ago that French-Canadians had every reason to fear for the safety of their institutions under Confederation, and I will prove it by quoting a few passages from the celebrated report of Lord Durham — a report which has been used as a model by the Government in preparing their scheme of Confederation— in fact the latter is copied almost word for word from that able sum mary of the means to be adopted for the utter annihilation of French nationality in this country. (Hear, hear.) To those who may feel inclined to consider my fears un founded, I have but one thing to say : you may rest assured that the English members -will not aUow themselves to he led by the few French-Canadian members of the Federal Govemment, and that they will strive con scientiously, and in some sort naturally, to carry out the work initiated by Lord Dur ham, and carried on up to this day with a deeree of skill and ability which, though de feated in some instances, was none the less calculated to produce the results foreseen and desired by Great Britain. I will read to the House an extract from the report in ques tion ; for it is good to remind the representa tives of Lower Canada of these facts: — Never again will the British population toler ate the authority of a House of Aasembly in which the French ahall possess, or even approxi mate to a majority. Such, Mr. Speaker, are the expreaaiona uaed by Lord Durham in hia deapatch to the Eng liah Govemment ; and 1 will show how faith fully the plan has been carried out. It waa begun by a union of the two Canadas, and it is to be continued by a Confederation of all the Provinces of British North America, and consummated at last by a legislative union, under which the French race will be absorbed and annihilated for ever. (Hear, hear.) An honorable member who addressed the House during yesterday's sitting, told us that Con federation would be the beginningjof the end, and the destruction of tbe Lower Cana dians. It would have been imptissible to de scribe more truly the poaition in which we sbaU find ourselves placed under Confedera'- tion. (Hear, bear.) The honorable member for VaudreuU (Mr. Harwood) said there were as many Catholics in London as there were in Rome itself, the centre of Catholicity. Well, what is the value of that assertion ? Does it prove anything in favor of his arg-u ment? How many members are there in the English Parliament to represent the Ca thoUcs of Great Britain ? If I am not mis taken, I think there are but two or thiee. Now I ask what influence can the Catholic population have in that Parliament, and what power have they to protect their institu tions and their liberties? If the honorable member for VaudreuU thinks he has brought forward an unanswerable argument, he is very much mistaken, for tbe argument turns entirely against him. (Hear, hear.) The honorable member for Vaudreuil also brought forward, in favor of Confeder ation, an argument which bears a cer tain appearance of plausibleness and weight. He said that if we adopt Confederation, Lower Canada will enjoy the rich coal mines of New Brunswick. Does the honor able member fancy that the coal is to be de livered to us free of all cost and charges, and without our having to give anything in ex-, change for it ? (Hear, hear.) Really, Mr. Speaker, it seems to me that when only such arguments as these are available in sup port of a case, it would be quite as well to aay nothing about it. It may be that the praiaes profusely bestowed by the Honorable Attorney General East on the honorable member for Vaudreuil are well deserved. It may be that the Honorable Attorney General thinks so ; but fbr my part — I say it in all sincerity — I consider that the style of elo quence displayed here by the hon. member for Vaudreuil was better calculated to win the applause of a parish meeting ; the hollow tinsel of that style of eloquence may take with a certain class of men, but I do not hes itate to assert that it is hardly the kind of speech suited to this House. What is re quired here is a speech calculated to bring conviction to the minds of those who listen. No doubt the hon. member for Vaudreuil tumed many pretty and elegant phrases, but for all tbat, I cannot help thinking that the Honorable Attomey General's compliments were somewhat extravagant, and that he only ' spoke as he did in order to remove the im- 84^ pression of the contempt he afiects to enter tains for his fellow-countrymen holding seats in this House, who hold opinions different from his, and for all the French speeches de livered on tbia aide of the Houae since he brought down hia Confederation scheme. Af ter all, the Honorable Attorney General has a perfect right to p;iy compliments to any one he likes, and whenever he likes ; and in mak ing theae remarka I do not complain of his having formed that opinion of the honorable member for Vaudreuil! The honorable mem ber also told us tbat the Government had done everything in their power, and that they had examined the queation of Confoderation from the atand-point of the five parties to the contract. I think so too, and I do not hesi tate to say that if our French-Canadian Min isters present at the Conference had exam ined the question from a Lower Canadian point of view — since they were charged with the protection of our interests — it i'a highly probable that many thinga unfavorable to those interests, which the scheme now pre sents, wouid have been removed. But the honorable member for Vaudreuil must know that the Lo-v\er Canadian Ministers at the Conference ought to have gone there to re present the interests of their fellow-country men, and to defend those intereats if neces sary, in the same way that the repreaentativea (if the other nationalities went there to repre sent those of their fellow-countrymen ; and the event shows but too clearly how strenuously the latter worked for their own interests. The scheme of Confederation shows clearly that the English race have in this, as in every other inatance, been favored, to the detriment of the French element. They obtained every thing, or nearly everything, they desired. It being aix o'clock, the Speaker left the chair. After the receas, Hon. Mr. LAFRAMBOISE reaumed his remarks as follows — Mr. Speaker, aa a pre lude to the remarka I propoaed making againat Confederation during the firat part of thia sitting, I answered aome of the argumenta brought forward by the honorable member for VaudreuU, in aupport of the acheme aa propoaed for the conaideration of this House. I shall now proceed to examine certain portiona ofthe scheme, and show the absurdity of the arguments brought forward in support ot it. It liaa been stated by honor able gentlemen oppjsite that Confederation is a compromise. Well, Mr. Speaker, what IS the meaning of the word " compromise" V It means an understanding arrived at by means of mutual concessions ; and in tbe case now before us, I find concessions made only on one side and none whatever on the other. I find that the concessions have all been made by Lower Canada to Upper Canada: the con cession of representation based upon popula tion, the concession to the Federal Parliament of the right to legislate on marriage and divorce. Not a single concession to Lower Canada. All the Lower Canadian members of the Adminiatration have, in their tum, told us that Upper Canada has made uoncessions to Lower Canada, but not one ofthose honor able gentlemen have pointed out a single instance of the kind. In looking over a pamphlet which has become celebrated for many reasona which I need n jt enumerate — I mean the pamphlet of the honorable mem ber for Montmorency — I find that Upper Canada has made one concession to Lower Canada. The honorable gentleman says, witb reference to the concession of represen tation based upon population : — Every confederation ia a compromiae, and where would he the compromise if nothing were conceded by both sidea? The compromise made by Lower Canada ia representation based upon population in the Lower House, and the compro mise on the part of Upper Canada ia the concea aion of equality in the Upper House in exchange for representation based upon population in the Assembly. The aame compromise occurs between the two Canadas and the Maiitime Pro\-inces, and it is based upou the same principle. Thua, Mr. Speaker, the only concession the honorable meraber for Montmorency haa auc- ceeded in shewing in favor of Lower Canada, notwithatanding the eminent talents we all admit he poaaeaaea, and hia well-known zeal for the Miniaterial scheme, is that which I have just mentioned, and in my opinion it is no concession at all, aince Lower Canada had and atill has the right to claim an equal repre sentation in both Houaea of the Legialature. Let ua now aee what is the nature of the con ceaaious made by Lower Canada to Upper Canada. In tbe firat place, I find thia, the moat important of all, and whicb by itself is worth all the rest — I mean the concession of representation based upon population. No one has forgotten the aniraated discussions which occurred, both in this House and elae where, relative to tbis queation. What means were not employed and what efibrts were not made by the Conaervative party iu order to make political capital out of that question, 1 and what success have not this same party, 846 who now concede representation based upon population, obtained in Lower Canada by loudly proclaiming that the Liberal party, or rather the " Rouge party," as they were pleased to atyle us, were ready to grant to the Honorable President of the Council repreaentation baaed upon population ? Well, Blr. Speaker, tbe accuaation made against the Liberal party, o( being prepared to grant to the Honorable Preaident of the Coun cil his cheriahed measure, I ahall leave to that hon. gentleraan himaelf the taak of answering. We heard hira declare in this Houae tbat he had oifered the hon. member for Hochelaga to continue to work wifeh him if he waa willing to concede the principle of representation baaed upon population, and that that gentleman having refuaed to comply witb the demand, he had accepted the alliance of the Hon. Attorney General Eaat, who gave him all he aaked. (Hear, hear.) But, Mr. Speaker, there ia aome thing still more important than that. A few daya ago, tbe Hon. Preaident of tbe Council, addreaaing the bon. membera fbr Hochelaga and Chateauguay, said, " I had long conaidered that you were the beat frienda of Upper Canada, but I can see today that your are not, and that our real frienda are the Hon. Attorney General for Lower Canada and hia Lower Canada eoileaguea." (Hear, hear.) After having granted the favor ite meaaure of the great Clear Giit chief, the Lower Canada delegates doubtleaa conaidered that that waa not aufficient, aince they also made another important conceaaion to Upper Canada and to the Protestants of Lower Canada, by veating in the Federal Govern ment the power of legialating on marriage and divorce — (hear, hear)— two queationa upon which the French-Canadiana were united by the bonda of a common faith, and on which they could not tolerate any diaeua sion ; and the Bliniatera, theiefore, ought not to have made thoae conceaaiona, whioh are utterly opposed to the religious doctiines they themaelvea profeaa, I aay that power hasbeen given to the Federal Government to legialate on divorce and to legalize it, and I am not miataken in saying it, for the principle is adopted by the fact ot giving to the Federal Legialature the right of legialat ing on thia question. Thia power ought to have been granted to the Iccal legislaturea, and not to the Federal Legialature, aa haa been done; and 1 ahall prove it in tbia way : tbe other day, the Hon. SoUcitor General for Lower Canada (Hon. Mr. Langevin) told ua, that aa regarda Lower Canada, there waa no necessity fbr granting to its legisla ture tbe power of legi.-lating on divorce, becauae, aaid he, " the religioua authorities are recognized; but it waa neceasary and proper to grant that power to Upper Canada." ( Hear, hear.) Now, I ask, if ijower Canada did not require that power of legislating, why haa it been given to the Federal Legia lature, which will be compoaed in great raajority of Proteatanta, who do not hold the aame opinion that we do on theae queationa, when it ia evident that that Legislature will probably grant billa of divi roe to all peraona wbo apply fbr thera, without conaidering whether the partiea are Catholica or Pro- tettants ? If divorce ia condemned by the Catholic relicion, I maintain that it ia wrong to grant that power to a Legislature which will be coraposed in great part of Proteatant membera, ready to legislate on divorce, and to grant divorcea to thoae who bring forward what they may conaider reaaonable grounda, aufficient to entitle them to obtain divorce, without conaidering whether the religioua faith of the partiea permita or doea not permit divorce. If divorce be condemned by the Catholio Church — and all the world knows that it ia ao condemned in the most formal raanner — the power of the Legislature in this matter ought tohave been restricted, and not made general, as it is proposed to make it in the scheme of Confederation subraitted to us. BIr. Speaker, I have shown, I think, that ijower Canada has gained nothing, but that she has con ceded everything in this compromise; true, in order to cover these guilty conceaaiona, we are told, " But the protection of our inatitutiona and the maintenance of our laws are fully and amply guaranteed to us by the new Constitution." In the firat place, under the Confederation, our ins-titutiona will not be protected — aa it h,43 vainly been atterapted to deraonatrate they will; but, even though it were the caae, doea not the Constitution under which we now live afifonl us infinitely better guaranteea -for all our dearest libertiea ? Let ua examine, for a moment, what apecies of guarantee we have under ti-.e preaent ayatem, and what guarantees we sball have under tie Federal system. The guarantee which the French-Canadiana have under the present system, conaiata in the fact that out of 65 mtubcrs, they count at leaat 51 of their own origin and faith, and that they 847 possess in the country and in the Legislature so powerful an influence, that the existence of any and every government dependa on their good-will, and that co legislation can be carried on without their conaent; whereaa, under the new Conatitution, tbe General Legialature will be corapoaed of 191 m-em- bera, Lower Canada having 65, of whom 14 at leaat will' be Engliah aud Proteat anta, leaving thua 51 French-Canadian or Catholic membera. Now, even if these 51 members act together as one man, they will have to atruggle againat 148 members of a difi"erent origin and a dif ferent faith from themselves. Thus, BIr. Spe.aKER, I am convinced tbat the guaran teea we ehjoy under our present Conatitu tion — guaranteea which are assured to us as long aa we do not change our system of govemment — are inflnitely superior to thoae offered to ua by the new Conatitution which it is sought to force upon the people. But we are told that the Federal Government will have the Catholic minority to deal with, and thai tbe aaaiatancs of the latter will be abaolutely necessary to carrying it on. Well, I ask, BIr. Speaker, what can a minority composed of 51 membera do againat a ma jority of 143 ; and what protection can it offer to our laws, our inatitutiona and our language? No; it ia evident that all these things which we hold so dear may, under the Federal system, disappear and be anni hilated at any moment; they will be con stantly at the mercy ofour natural enemies. In order to secure Confederation, 30U have granted to Upper Canada representation based on population — a principle against which the people of Lower Canada have always voted as one man, and you have also granted everything that the Upper Canadian delegates desired to obtain for themselves and their co-religioniats. Itis quite natural that the English members in Lower Canada should be nearly all in favor ofthe acheme, since they have a aure guarantee in the veto power of the Fedeial Legialature, Thua the Local Legialature of Lower Canada cannot paaa a aingle law without aubmitting it to the aanction of the Federal Legialature, which can, by its veto, amend, change or completely annul, if it thinks proper, any law or any nieasure so submitted to it. But what guarantee will the Federal Legislature offer to the French-Canadian majority of Lower Canada, and to the Catholic minority of Upper Canada ? None whatever. How can the great Conservative party which boasts so loudly of representing the interests of tbo Catholics of Lower Canada, which takea ita atand as the natural protector of the religion andthefaith of Catholica — (hear, hear) — very abaurdly I rauat admit — how can that great party, I aay, have forgotten, as it evidently haa forgotten, that there are Catho lica iu Upper Canada who expected and are entitled to ita protection ? How will the Catholic minority in Upper Canada be pro tected in the Local Legialature of Upper Canada, compoaed of Englishmen and Protestants? Shall I tell you how, Mr. Speaker 1 Well, they will be protected by two merabers only, the hou. members for Cornwall and Glengarry (Hon. Mr. .1. S. Mac donald and BIr. Donald A. McDonald). The great Conservative party, which atyles itaelf the protector of Catholicism, has siraply handed over the Catholic minority of Upper Canada to the tender mercies of their enemiea. And to give an idea of the kind of protection they will enjoy under the new ayatera, it ia aufficient to atate that a few days ago. Bishop Lynch, of Toronto, was forced to address himself publicly, through the preas, to the citizens of Toronto, to protest against the insults offered in broad daylight, in the public streets of that city and elsewhere, to revered Sisters of Charity, and to ask protection for the vener able ladies of that community ; and then look at the fanatical and intolerant writings, such as those I read to thia Honorable Houae before the receaa, from an article in the Globe of the 6th Blarch — a paper which repreaenta the opiniona of tbe preaent Government, and which is the organ and property of the Hon. President of the Execuliive Council (Hon. Mr. Brown). Can it be said that we have nothing to fear, that the religious institutions of Upper Cauada will be perfectly safe under the system sought to be introduced into the country ? Does not the hon. member for Blontmorency adrait, in hia famoua pamphlet of 1865, that our religious it^atitutiona have many a time been inaulted in this House ? And has not the Bithop of Toronto just complained that Sistera of Charity have been insulted in the streets of the capital of Upper Canada, and that they have been turned into ridicule at masquerades and masked balls, frequented by the beat society of that locality ? And in order that every one may be convinced of the fact, I take the liberty of reading his letter, which is as follows : — 848 TO THE CITIZENS OF TORONTO. The Sistera of Charity have been from time to time groasly insulted in this city. Men have rudely seized hold of them in the public streets whilst going on their errand of charity ; they have been pelted with stones and snow-balla. They have been called the moat opprobrious and insulting names ; their costume haa been con- tumeliously exhibited in masquerades on a skating rink. We, confiding in the honor and justice of the gentlemen of Toronto, most respectfully ask protection in the premises. Your obedient servant, t John JoaEPU Lynch, Bishop of Toronto. Bnt even though many hon. members of this House doubted the truth of the statements made in that letter, is not the danger we shall incur, as Catholica, once we are placed at the mercy of our enemies, exemplified by facta which they cannot have forgotten ? I mean the numOerleaa injuriea and inaulta offered by an honorable member of thia Houae to everything Catholica hold dear. Have we forgotten tbe infamoua chargea uttered by oue ol the friends and warm supporters of the Hon. President of the Council (Hon. BIr. Brown) on the floor of this llouae ? Well, I aak you now — you, the great Conaervative party, the natural protectora of our religion and of ita admirable inatitutiona — what have you done to aecure protection for the Catholica of Upper Ca nada in the new Confederation ? Nothing whatever ! (Hear, hear.) But if Lower Canada haa obtained uo new conceaaion, and if her poaition ia no better under the new system than under the present one, why are we to have Confederation ? I can answer the question, and, in fact, the answer is patent to every one : our Bliniatera had re courae to Confederation aimply becauae it preaented a pretext for clinging to office, and enjoying the sweeta of power for a few years longer. That is the reaaon, and the one only reaaon, fbr their alliance with a man who deapiies thera in hia heart, and who joined thera only because they advance hia plana and ambitioua designa. The Hon. Solicitor General for Lower Canada ex plained to ua the other evening the inten tiona of the Government, It aounded very well, no doubt ; but every one knowa that the intentiona of a governraent are not un- chaugable, that they may change them, and that Ihey have, in f,.ct, already done so. At the time uf the formation of the present Ministry, did not the Lower C.inada Min istera tell their friends in this House, and was it not repeated in every shape by their newspapers, "Don't be uneasy. Confedera tion will uot be carried out." Tbe Hon. Commissioner of Public Worka (Hon. BIr. Chapau) did not deny having stated to a priest of this diatrict, "that he must be quiet; that there waa nothing to fear; that Confederation wo Id not be carried out; that the whole thing was done in order to entrap the great Clear Grit leader and to get rid of him for ever, and of the Lower Ca nada Liberal party." (Hear, hear.) It seems that our Lower Canadian Blinisters did not take into account the pressure of the Upper Canada members, nor that of the delegates from the Maritime Provinces, who, by combining together, obtained all the conceaaiona they deaired from the infiniteai mal Lower Canadian minority repreaenting ua at the Conference of Quebec. They wire told that Confederation must be carried out undersuch and such conditions; and these brave patriots, in order to avoid losing their cheriahed miniaterial placea, did not heai tate to aacrifice their fellow-countrymen. They accepted all the conditiona of the Proteatant delegates, and now they are striving to induce the Houae, and particu larly the Lower Canadian membera of it, to ratify their ahameful conceaaions. Unhap pily for Lower Canada, I fear the House will vote for the destruction of French- Canadian nationality in this province. There is one important point which muat not be loat aight of, namely, that the great majority of the Upper Canadian members are in favor of Confederation, because everything in it is entirely to their advantage ; but I cannot conceive how a majority of Lower Canadian members can be in favor of the measure. True, many of theae membera are repudiated by tbeir countiea, and do not repreaent tbe opiniona of tbe majority of their conatituenta on thia question, and it is certain that many of those who will vote for tbis scheme wiU never have an opportunity of voting for the project, if an appeal be made to the people. (Hear, hear.) With reference to divorce, I aay that if the doctrinea of the Catholic religion tell ua that it ia wrong and crim inal to grant it, and that Catholica cannot accept it, it was the duty of our Blinisters at the Conference to do all in tbeir power to restrict it. True, it waa not poaaible to pre vent it in Upper Canada and in the Blari time Provinces, but it might have been done as regards Lower Canada; and if it was deemed right to grant the power of 849 legislating on this question, it ought to have been given tu the local govern ments. But divorce was granted in this way because England had established a special tribunal for this matter, and Eng land desired thiit divorce should be granted in Lower Canada as well as in every other province of British North America. Our Lower Canadian Ministers have simply yielded to the British influence which has been omnipotent in the Convention. (Hear, hear.) They ^y " It is very true that the Catholic religion prohibits divorce, but vote in favor of its establishment ; for if you do not, tho Rouge party will retum to power and destroy all your religious institutions, if you give them the control of the government of tbe country." Well, gentlemen upholders of religion, ought you not to use every means to prevent these dreadful Rouges from mak ing use, of the law, which you youraelves are about to establish, which will enable them to obtain divorce whenever they please, and thus to insult the dogmas and doctrines of the Catholic Church ? The Hon. Sol. Gen. East (Hon. Mr. Langevin) gave us, the other night, what he pretended were satis factory explanations — satisfactory to him, perhaps — on the law of divorce. Well, Mr. Speake (, let us examine these wonderful explanations. That hon. gentleman told ua that it waa aimply a law authorizing the de claration that a marriage contracted in any of the confederated provinces, in accordance with the laws of the province in which it waa contracted, should be deemed to be valid in Lower Canada in case the husband and wife came to reside there. Well, I aak you, Blr. Speaker, il there was any necesaity lor making this provision in the new Conatitu tion ? Would not a marriage, under the preaent Constitution, contracted under the circumstances referred to by the Hon . Solicitor General for Lower Canada, be as valid as it would bounder the Confederation ? Certainly it would ! Then what do the Govemment mean? I am well aware that the Catholio members from Lower Canada will not admitit, and I know that they refuaed to believe me when I made the aaaertion, but I do not hesitate to repeat it here, thai it is the intention of the Convention to legalize civil marriages. The Lower Canadian section of the Ministry has not ventured to admit it, because they well knew that they would draw down upon themselves the disapproba tion of the clergy of the country, and of all their fellow-countrymen. If the power con- 108 ferred on the Federal Legislature in relation to this matter means anything at all, it is that and nothing else, and all the explana tions given by the Hon. Solicitor General for Lower Canada and his colleagues are utterly valueless, and cannot be accepted by the Catholic membeis. Why say that divorce will be permitted? If the existing law authorizes divorce now, it was quite unne cessary to make a new law on the subject, and to make it an article of the new Consti tution, The Government takes every means in its power to conceal tbe real intentions of the Conference ou this important point of the scheme, but I am firmly convinced that their object ia perfectly underatood, and the future will prove whether or not I am mia taken when I aaaert that it is intended to make civil marriagea legal in thia country. One of the reaaona — and the only one which I have been able to diacover — for which the preaent Government haa granted power to the Federal Legialature to decree divorce, is that the Proteatanta of Lower Canada would never, but for that proviaion, have given their aupport to the Confederation meaaure propoaed by our Bliniatera. I am well aware that there are certain Proteatant denoraina- tiona whose doctrines forbid divorce, bat I do not heaitate to say that the only reason of tbe concession is the one I have just stated. Besides, in the pamphlet of the hon. member for Blontmorency, I find a very strong admission : — Catholic opinion urged that a question of such aocial importance should be left to the local govemmenta, but let it be understood that in leaving it as regards Iiower Canada to a Protest ant majority, we only maintain tha present condi tion of that important question. By so referring it to the Federal Government, we avoid raany causes of contention aud many violent complainta which might eventually be listened to by the Mother Country, where divorce is legalized and operates aa a social institution. Who can aay that the Protestants — who are in great majority in our preaent Parliaraent, and who will constitute the two-thirda of the Confederation — would ever have consented to localize legialation on the subject of divorce? The hon member for Bloutmoroncy knows juat as well as I do that the Proteatanta of Lower Canada would not have liked it, and that to obtain their support, it has been aaid to them, " Oh yes, let ua concede that too ; we have yielded repreaentation by popula tion, let us also give them divorce and any - thing else they like." 850 Hon. Sol, Gen. LANGEVIN— Hear ! hear! Hon. Mr. LAFRAMBOISE— The hon. member may exclaim " IIear,bear," aa loudly and aa often as be likes, but those who beard him deliver the (I will not say eloquent, because that would not be true) speech which he made in opposition to the first reading of the Benning Divorce Bill, and who now behold bim impoaing on Catholics, who do not deaire it, the consequences of a principle whieh we then refuaed to apply to Proteatanta who aought for it — those I aay are juatified in believing and in aaying that tbe Hon. Solicitor General for Lower Canada bas either renounced his former opinions on divorce, inasmuch as he authorizea the Federal Legislature to legialate on thia sub ject, and to grant divorces either to Protest ants or Catholics, and either to Upper or Lower Canada, or he could not have been very sincere in hia opposition to the Benning Bill. (Hear, hear.) There ia one certain fact, and that is that the., Proteatanta of Lower Canada have aaid to the Government, " Paaa a meaaure which ahall guarantee to ua tbe atability and protection of.our educational ayatem and of our religioua institutions, and we will support your acheme of Confedera tion ; unleaa you do, we will never support you, because we do not wish to place our aelves at the mercy of a Local Legislature the three-fourths of the members of which will be Catholica." They were perfectly juatifiable in acting as they did, although it is generally admitted that we Catholics have much more liberality than the Protestanta — and thia is to a certain extent proved by the fact that several of cur Lower Canadian counties are represented by Proteatants. I do not, however, BIr. Speaker, I do not wiah to reproach the Proteatant min ority of Lower Canada for having pro tected ita own intereata. I admit that in doing thia they have only done their duty ; for who can aay, after all, what ten yeara may bring forth ? Ten years hence ideaa may be changed upon thia queation, and if it be true, aa atated by the Toronto Globe — and the Biinialjy cannot say that this journal dues not speak the truth, as it ia the organ of the present Government — if it be true that tbe Cath. lie clergy are an encroaching body, that tbey are never aatisfied, and that tbey seek to take poaseaaion of all they aee if that be true, Blr. Speaker, who will aay that in a few yeara the Jjower Canadiana will not be diaposed tn say to the Protestant minority, " We insist that all the schools should be Catholic," as the majority in Upper Canada has said to the Catholic minority there, many and many a time, and as it will before long say again if Confeder ation takes place. (Hear, hear.) I need not say that I do not believe that the Catholics of this section will ever push intolerance to that extent ; but on the other hand, I cannot but approve of the determin ation of the Protestant minority to protect themselves from all eventiialities of this nature ; and for the same reason, I say that we also ought to take every precaution, and that we ought not to suffer our dearest intereata to be at the mercy of a Proteatant majority in the Federal Legialature. (Hear, hear.) We are not juatified in aaking for any conceaaions which we are not ourselves prepared to yield. (Hear, hear.) Before the House rose at six o'clock, I slated, Mr. Speaker, that the plan of Confederation waa, so to speak, traced word for word upon the famous report of Lord Durham. With the permission of the House, I wOl take the liberty of reading a few extracts from that report, in whioh the author, after having aaaerted a number of falaehoods in relation to our race, which I will not trouble the House with reading, declares that we ought to be merge'd into the Engliah nationality. Obaerve how similar tbe ideaa of the noble lord are to thoae which are expreaaed in the plan of Confederation. I cite fbr the aecond time the following paragraph : — Never again will the Britiah population tolerate the authority of a Houae of Aaaembly in which the French ahall poasess. or even approximate to, a majority. Here, Mr. Speaker, we have a sentiment which ahews that England haa followed, atep by atep, the advice of Lord Durham. The hon. member for South Leeda aaid the other night that he hoped that we ahould aoon attain to a legialative union. WeU, a legialative union waa also one of Lord Dur ham's dreams I proceed to read another extract from his report : — It will be acknowledged by every one who has observed the progresa of Anglo-Saxon coloniza tion m America, that sooner or later the English race was sure to predominate, even numerically, lu Lower Canada, as they predominate already by their auperior knowledge, energy, enterprise and we 3,1th. The error, therefore, to which the present conteat must be attributed, ia the vain endeavor to preaerve a French-Canadian nation- 851 ality in the midst of Anglo-American coloniea and atatea. A Uttle further, Mr. Speaker, I read aa follows : — These general principles apply, however, only to those changes iu the ayatem of governmeut which are required in order to rectify disorders common to all the North American coloniea ; but they do not, in auy degree, go to remove thoae evila in the preaent state of Lower Canada, which requiie the most immediate remedy. The fatal feud of origin, which is the cause of the most extensive mischief, would be aggravated at the present moment by any change which ahould give the majority more power than they have hitherto possessed. A plan, by which it ia proposed to insure tbe tranquil government of Lower Canada, must include in itself the means of putting au end fo the agitation of national disputes in the Legia lature by aettling, at once and for ever, the national character of the province. I entertain no doubta aa to the national character which muat he given to Lower Canada — it must be that of the Britiah Empire — that of the majority of the population of British America — ^that of the great race which must, in no long period of time, be predominant over the whole North American continent. Without eff'ecting the change so rapidly or ao roughly aa to ahock tbe feelings and trample on the welfare of the exiating generation, it muat henceforth be the firat and steady purpoae of the British Government to establish an English population, with English lawa and language, in this province, and to trust ita government to none hut a decidedly Engliah Legialature. And further on I find what follows : — It may be aaid that thia ia a hard meaaure to a conquered people ; that the French were originally the whole, and stUl are the bulk, of the population of Lower Canada; that the English are new comera, who have no rio-ht to demand the extinction of the nationality of a people, among whom commercial enterprise has drawn them. It may be said that if the French are not ao civilized, so energetic, or ao money-making a race as that by which they are surrounded, they are an amiable, a virtuoua and a contented people, posseaaing all the essen tials of material comfort, and not to be deapiaed or ill-u«ed because they aeek to enjoy what they have without emulating the apirit of accumula tion which influencea their neighbors. Their nationality ia, after all, an inheritance, and they must not be too aeverely puniahed because they have dreamed of maintaining, on the distant banka of the St. Lawrence, and trauamitting to their posterity the language, the mannera and the insti tutions of that great nation that, for two centuries, gave the tone of thought to the European conti nent, ff the disputes of the two racea are irfeconcilahle, it may be urged that juatice demanda that the minority ahould be compelled to acquieace in the aupremacy of the ancient and moat numeroua occupants of the province, and not pretend to force their own inatitutions and eua toma on the majority. But before deciding which of the two racea ia now to be placed in the ascendant, it ia but prudent to enquire which of them must ultimately prevail ; for it is not wise to establish to-day that which must, after a hard struggle, be reversed to morrow. The pretensions of the French-Cana dians to the exclusive poasession of Lower Canada would debar the yet larger English population of Upper Canada and the townships from access to the great natural channel of that trade which they alone have created and now carry on. The possessiou of the mouth of the St. Lawrence contierns not only thoae who happen to have made their aettlementa along the narrow line which bordera it, but all who now dwell, or will hereafter dwell in the great baain of that river. For we must not look to the present alone. The question is, by what race ia it likely that the wilderneaa which now covera the rich and ample regiona surrounding the comparatively small and contracted districts in which the French-Canadians are located, ia eventually to be converted into a settled and flourishing country ? If this ia to be done in the Britiah dominions as in the rest of North America, by some speedier process than the ordinary growth of population, it must be by immigration from the English Isles or from the United States — the countries which supply the only settlers that have entered, or will enter, the Canadas in any large numbers. This immigration can neither be debarred from a passage through Lower Canada, nor even be prevented from settling in that pro vince. The whole interior of the Britiah domin iona must, ere long, be filled with an English population, every year rapidly increaaing ita numerical superiority over the French. Is it just that the prosperity ofthis great majority, and of thia vast tract of country, should be forever, or even for a while, impeded by the artificial har which the backward lawa and civilization of a part, aud a part only, of Lower Canada, would place between thera andthe ocean? Is it to be supposed that such an English population will ever aubmit to such a sacrifice of its interests? The French-Canadians, on the other hand, are but the remains of an ancient colonization, and are, and ever must be, isolated iu the midst of an Anglo-Saxon world. And is this French-Canadian nationality one which, for the good merely ofthat people, we ought to strive to perpetuate, even if it were possible ? I know of no national distinctions marking and continuing a more hopeless inferiority. The language, the lawa, the character of the North American continent are English, and every race but the English (I apply this to all who speak the English language) appears there in a condi tion of inferiority. It is to elevate them from thai iuf liority that I desire to give to the Ca nadians our English character. ;_, ;, — ,_s— iwti There can hardly be conceived a nationality 852 more deatitute of all that can invigorate and elevate a people than that which is exhibited hy the descendants of the Preach iu Lower Canada, owing to their retaining their peculiar language and mannera. They are a people with uo history and no literature. The literature of England is written in a language which is not theira, and the only literature which their language rendera familiar to them is that of a nation from which they have been separated by eighty years of a foreign rule, and still more by those changes which the revolution and its consequences have wrought in the whole politioal, moral and social state of Prance. Well, BIr. Speaker, Sir Edmund Head, when he called ua an inferior race, without our French-Canadian Miniatera proteating in any way againat thia groaa and foolish insult — drew hia inspiration from the report from which I have juat cited an extract, and which, from ita fiiat to ita last page, breathea the moat bitter hatred of all tbat beara the French name or atamp. A little further on Lord Durham continuea aa followa : — In these circumstances I should be indeed sur prised if the more reflecting part of the French- Canadians entertained at present any hope of continuing to preaerve their nationality. Probably, BIr. Speaker, Lord Dun ham waa deairoua of alluding to the membera of the present Adminiatration who to-day evince a diapoaition to aacrifice their nationality for the honora and titlea whicb Lord Durham counaelled the Imperial Govermenment to beatow on thoae of our reflecting French- Canadiana who would Eot refuae to take the gilded bait which Great Britain might dangle before their eyea. I continue my citations : — Lower Canada must be governed now, as it must be hereafter, by an English population ; and thus the policy which the necessities of the moment force upon us, is in accordance with that suggested by a comprehensive view of the future and permanent improvement of the province. A little further on Lord Durham pro ceeds as followa : — It ia proposed either to place the legislative authority in a governor, with a council formed of the heads of the British party, or to contrive some scheme of representation by which a minority, with the forms of representation, is to deprive a majority of aU voice in the management of its own affairs. Tbe plan of Confederation now aubmitted for our adoption is exactly that dreamt of by Lord Durham. Our Ministers have copied it, so to speak, word for word. Lord Du HAM indicates all its eaaential pointa; and if I cite hia report, it is witb the view of proving that the real author of the Con federation, which it is aought to impoae upon us, ia, in fact. Lord Dlirham himaelf. (Hear, bear.) I quote again from hia report : — The only power that cau be effectual at once in coercing the preaent disaffection and hereafter obliterating the nationality of the French-Cana dians, is that ofthe numerical majority of aloyal aiid English population ; and the only stable government will be one more popular than any that haa hitherto existed in the North American colonies. The influence of perfectly equal and popular inatitutions in effacing distinctions of race without diaorder or oppression, and with little more than the ordinary animosities of party in a free country, is memorably exemplified in the hiatory of the State of Louisiana, the laws and population of which were French at the time of its cession to the American union. And the eminent success of the policy adopted with regard to that state points out to us the means by which a similar result can be effected in Lower Canada. Lord Durham waa perfectly correct in sug gesting the adoption of tbis policy. He did not wish to put his foot on our necks, but he advised that we should be made to dis appear little by little under English influ ence, and when we should be weak enough to be no longer dangeroua, then that we ahould have the coup de grdce Aa in Louiaiana, our nationality was to disappear under the influence of foreign elementa. BIr. SCOBLE— WiU the hon. gentleman permit me to obaerve to him, that it ia only justice to the memory of that great states man to aay, that he wrote hia report having only in view a legialative union, and that circumatancea have changed since tbat day? Now we are only diacuaaing a Confederation, and conaequently Lord Durham's viewa do not apply to it, Hon. BIr. LAFRABIBOISE— I think that the pl-m conceived by Lord Durham waa that of a legialative union and a Con federatiou of all the British North American Provinces. We are about to begin with Confederation, but we shall finiah with a legislative union. Confederation, as has been well observed by that eminent states man, is tbe first stop to a legislative union. " Act with prudence," he says in his fatrous report to the British Govercment ; " we must not crush the French race too suddenly 853 in these colonies ; they might resist and give trouble, but make use of diplomacy, lavish honora and titles on their leading men, acd perhapa you will aucceed." I am convinced that we ahall have a legialative union in a very few yeara if the plan of Confederation ia adopted, and I am not the only one wbo saya .=0, for the other night the hon. member for South Leeda stated in thia Houae that in a abort time we ahould have a legialative union and all ita conaequencea. 'Well, Mr. Speaker, if we are threatened in this way, the hon. member f r South Leeds ought not to be surprised that as a Lower Canadian I have something to say against the opinions expressed by Lord Durham in his report. I can perfectly understand that he could not possibly have the feelinga of a Lower Canadian, and that he could not consequently feel as I can feel, the affront and the wrong which that statesman inflicted on my fellow- countrymen. (Hear, hear.j But neither, on the other hand, doea he feel as I dc that the plan of Confederation will bring the French-Canadian race to tbe aocial condition conceived and predicted by the noble lord whoae report I have juat cited. That hon. member, aa an Englishman and a Proteatant, ia in favor of a legialative union, in preference to any other syatem of govern ment. He would behold with pleaaure but one race — and that the Britiah race — in habiting theae colonies of Great Britain. I do not blame him for these sentiments, which are perfectly justifiable wben held by an Englishman; but, on the other hand, I am thoroughly convinced that he will not deem it a strange thing that a French- Canadian should entertaiu entirely different viewa on these points. (Hear, hear.) Thus, BIr. Speaker, that great statesman. Lord Durham, the most dangeroua enemy of French nationality, makea uae of the follow ing language in bia famoua report : — If you are deairoua of gaining over the politi cal leaders of the Lower Canadians, act as fol lowa : — Begin by giving them ofBces, titlea and honora of every kind ; flatter their vanity, give them a vaat field in which to satisfy their ambi tion. Lord Durham came into this country after the rebellion, and perceived that his pre decessors in the government had been guilty of political errors which had alienated the French-Canadiana from Great Britain, aad he thought that he ought to leave behind him, to serve as a guide to his successors, that famous report in whicb he has collected toge'her all the means that diplomacy could furnish him with, to crush out a nationality which he saw with regret living happily and contentedly on the aoil of ita birth, and from whicii it drow its sustenance. Lord Durham, like the hon. member for South Leeda would have preferred a legialat've union of all the Britiah Provincea to the union of the two Canadaa ; but the Britiah Government conaidered it more prudent to b';gin with thia partial union, knowing well that later it would easily find the means of accompliahing a legislative union. Eng land reaaoned in thia way : if wo give the Engliah race time to develope itaelf, we can easily, at some future period, irapose a legia lative union on the French-Canadiana To day the Canadian Govemraent, accepting the views of Lord Durham, come down and aak ua to take this firat atep towarda annihil ation, by accepting Confederation, which tbey preaent to ua in the raost brilliant and tempting guiao. (Hear, hear.) For want of argument, they aay auch thinga as these to excuse the culpable atep which they are ready to take — " What iathe uae of reaiating? We muat have aooner or later the Confeder ation now propoaed to you, and ultimately a legialative union?" 'Well, Mr. Speaker, I think, for rfny part, that we might eaaily escape this laat danger to our nationality, if all the Catholica and French-Canadians in thia Houae were to league themselvoa to gether to defeat the meaaure before us, which denies to the latter that legitimate influence which they ought to have in the Federal Govemment. Why not concede to us the guarantees and concessions which we have given to our fellow-countrymen of other origins ? TheLower Canadian Blinisters, who have not inaiated upon obtaining for us that protection, have rendered theraaelvea highly culpable towards their fellow-countryraen. (Hear, hear.) Under the Federal union, Lower Canada can never have more than sixty-five members in the Federal Legiala ture, notwithstanding the explanations to the contrary made on thia head by the Hon. Solicitor General Eaat. All who have dis cussed tbe question in this Houao cotild nof do otherwiae than admitit. Well, notwith standing this injustice, and notwithstanding any increaae that our population may attain under the Federal regime, our repreaentation will always remain at the same figure, and we shall pay our ahare of the pubUc debt in the ratio of the number of our population. 854 WeU, Mr. Speaker, ia there not injuatice in thia provision ? We have been told that we shall have the management of our public lands. I admit that thia would be of great benefit to us, if we were in a poaition to aaaure thoae who might aettle in our midat that they would have a voice in the councila of the nation. But no, Mr. Speaker ; im migration to thia country will alwaya be imposaible under the Confederation perparing for ua, and it will be diverted towarda the territories of Upper Canada, where the settlers can be represented in the Provincial Legislature, where the climate is more favorable and the soil more fertUe. But from another point of view, can we consider advantageous to Lower Canada the posaeaaion and administration of its public domain under tbe circumstances in which we shall be placed by Confederatiou ? Assuredly not, and for thia reaaon : each province ia to aaaume ita public landa, with the debta due upon the landa. On the public landa situated in Upper Canada, and wbich she is to assume, there ia a debt of six milliona of dollars due to the province, whUst on those in Lower Canada there is only a debt of one million, conaequently Upper Canada will obtain from Lower Canada a claim for five million of dollara in exceaa of that which she yields to Lower Canada. H§re we have one of the few great advantages wbich have been pointed out to us since the beginning of the diaeuasion ; and I aak you, BIr. Speaker, whether it is advantageous to Lower Canada ? On the contrary, while highly advantageous to Upper Canada, it is grossly unjust to Lower Canada. Ia it not evident that the Confederation ia entirely for the benefit of Upper Canada? And ia not a sufficient proof of it to be found in the fact that we find in thia Houae but two or three membera from that aection of the province who are oppoaed to the scbeme ? If all the members from Upper Canada, to what party soever they may be long, unite to-day to support the scheme of the Government, it is becauae they perfectly underatand that everything ha- been con ceded to them, and that they have obtained all that they wiahed for — aHllhe conceaaiona that they aought for, and for whioh they labored and atruggled so energetically and so long. (Hear, hear.) That ia perfectly well understood. But if influencea hoatile to Lower Canada, which worked againat ua during the preparation in England of the law respecting the change in the constitution of the Legialative Council, had not caused the removal from the Union Act of the clauae requiring the aaaent of two-thirds of the membera of the Legislature to effect a change in the baaia of our repreaentation — if those influencea had not worked to re move that aafeguard of our intereats, Upper Canada would never have been ao peraiatent in atriving to obtain representation baaed on population. She would have seen the im poaaibility of obtaining it, and the inutility of aaking for it, and would, in conaequence, have abandoned it. But from the moment when that clauae waa removed from the Union Act, it was competent to the Legisla ture to enact a change in the Constitution by a mere majority; and it may oonaequently , be said that through that influence which worked againat ua. Upper Canada now obtaina representation baaed on population. (Hear, hear,) The membera from Upper Canada will obaerve that 1 do uot maintain that the principle of repreaentation baaed upon population ia in itself an unjuat prin ciple ; but I maintain that as they refused us the application of it when the population of Lower Canada was in a majority, it is unjust of them to demand it uow becauae they are in a, majority, and I cannot aee by what right they wish to obtain it now. I aay that if the application of that principle waa unjuat twenty yeara ago, it is also unjust to-day; and that if it ia juat to-day, it was equally juat twenty yeara ago. (Hear, hear.) A member conaidered it very extraordinary that the Rouge party — let ua call it by that name, aince it ia the one by which the Liberal party is deaignated in thia country, and we have no reaaon to take exception to it, — ainco the Rouge party in Canada have waahed away from that name all the ataina with which the Rouge party in France had covered it, and that here th" banner of that party is spotlesa — (hear, hear) — a member, I aay, conaidered it extraordinary, and ridiculed the idea that the Rouge party ahould have conatituted themaelves the protectora and def'endera of the religion, the nationality and the inatitutions of Lower Canada, during the diacussion ofthe soheme of Confederation, But when we aee at the head of the movement, hoatUe to that Confederation, a man like BIr. Cherrier of Blontreal, who will certainly very favorably bear compariaon with all the members of the Conservative party of Lower Canada in respect of devotion, honor, national feeling and ability — when we see, I repeat, a man 855 like Mr. Cherrier at the head of fhe move ment hostile to Confederation, I say that it is wrong to cast ridicule on that movement, and to make a pretence of believing that the membersof the Liberal party, or ofthe Rouge party, have no religious, national or patriotic feelings. I say that the Conservative party were greatly in the wrong in endeavoring to ridicule Mr. Cherrier, because he is a man who is too well known as a man of probity and of religious sentiments — and the same oannot be said of several of those who have attacked him ; and I am convinced that that gentleman sincerely believes thatthe nation ality, the institutions and the religion of Lower Canada are in danger. (Hear, hear.) Beaides, admitting, aa the Ministerial party pretend, that the Rouge party were not authorized to speak for tbe clergy and to defend our religious and national righta, it doea not follow that all that tbe membera on thia side ofthe House stated on this subject is not strictly true ; and if it had been possi ble to reply to it, it would have been better to meet it uy arguments of a serious charac ter than by peraonal attacka, the latter meana being only employed aa a blind. And thoae who exclaim so loudly to-day against the Liberal party, and who pretend to see in that party nothing but dialoyalty and treaaon, did not alwaya hold the monarchical and loyal ideaa which they profeaa to-day; they were not always auch ardent supporters of mon archical government as they are now. (Hear, hear.) Thus, all the world knows right well that the Hon. Attorney General for Lower Canada yE.on. Mr. Cartier) was at the head of the party which atirred up the troubles of 1837-38. Mr. j. B. E. DORION— No, no I he was at the tail of it ! (Laughter.) Hon. BIr. LAFRABIBOISE— I do not know whether he waa at the head or at the tail of it ; but at any rate, he was in it He was at St. Denis a few minutes before the battle. (Laughter.) I do not know whether he remained there ; but I know that it is reported that be was deputed by the rebel camp to go and fetch provisions, although they could not then have been iu any great need of provisions, for the moment at least. (Laughter.) At any rate, he was in the rebel camp. But he haa now corrected all his democratic errora ; he haa renounced all ideaa of that nature, and haa substituted monarchical ideas for them;. he is now in favor of a great monarchical power on this continent, and would be prepared to accept I the position of Royal Prince if it should be offered to him. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) The Hon. Solicitor General for Lower Ca nada (Hon. Mr. Langevin) explained to us why he had so assumed monarchical ideas, when ho told us that he would receive his reward. (Hear, hear.) After having as sumed monarchical ideas, he ia ready to assume their livery. (Hear.) But why should he be rewarded, as the Hon. Solicitor General has said he will be ? He will be so, that gentleman says, because the Hon. Attorney General brought about the passing of a measure for the abolition of the seigniorial tenure — because the censitaires and the seigniors, brought their title-deeds to him, and he retumed them a measure which was satisfactory both to the aeigniora and to the censitaires. Now, I am really aurpriaed that the Hon. Solicitor General, who, in the poaition which he occupiea, ought to be acquainted with the history of the laws of thia country, is not aware that it waa the Honorable Mr. Juatice Drum mond who prepared and brought about the paasing of the law for the abolition of the seigniorial tenure, and not the Hon. Attor ney General for Lower Canada at all. (Hear, hear.) That is, therefore, no reason why he should deserve a reward. The Hon. Solicitor General also aaid that the Hon. Attorney General waa entitled to the grati tude of hia country, because he had brought about the passing of the law for judiciary decentralisation, and had thereby conduced to the interests of auitora, advocatea, judges, and every one in general. The Honorable Solicitor General is free to admire the laws of his chief, the Hon. Attomey General; but I may say, that if ever an Attorney General made crude, incomprehensible and imprac ticable laws, it was undoubtedly the present Hon. Attorney General for Lower Canada. He has never been able to make- a aingle law whicb it has not been absolutely neces sary to amend and touch up every session, and the worst in this respect is his judicature law. " But," 'says the Hon. Solicitor Gen eral, " he has passed a registration law." Well, his registration law contains similar defects, and proves his complete inability to prepare a passable law. And to so great a degree is this the case, that it has been impossible to put it in practice, and it has been necessary to amend it during five con secutive sessions, without that course having very greatly improved it. (Hear, hear.) Thpse two lawS; then, do not entitle him to 856 a reward. The Hon. Solicitor General also says that the Hon. Attomey General deserves a reward fur having introduced the French law of Lower Canada into the townships. But hero again he awards him praise and reward whijh are not hia due, for it waa Hon. Judge Loranger who made that law, and had it pasaed and enacted by the Houae. For tbis law, then, also he ia not deserving of reward. (Hear.) These are the three reasons fbr wbich the Hon. Solicitor General says that the Hon. Attorney General is enti tled to a reward ; but I consider that he hardly deaervea any, aa it was not he who brought about the paaaing of the first and the laat of thoae laws, and the other two are ao ill-made that he deaervea anything but a reward for having conferred them upon the country. (Hear, hear.j Yet I muat say that he deaervea a reward, but Irom whom, and why ? Ah ! ho deaervea a reward from England fbr having done exactly what Lord Durham adviaed the doing of in relation to the Canadians, in hia famoua report on the means to be taken to cauae ua to diaap pear; he deservea a reward for having cauaed the setting aside of the French laws and the substitution for them of Eng liah lawa ; he deserves a reward for having done the will of England in every respect ; and, lastly, he deservea a reward fbr having deviaed the preaent scheme of Confederation, and caused it to be accepted by a majority of this House. (Hear, hear.j While on tills subject, and to show how he haa deaerved and received rewarda, it will be well to read a paaaage from Lord Durham's report, in which he pointa out the means to be adopted to corrupt the leaders and to get the maatery of the Lower Canadian people. Ihe follow ing ia the paaaage to which 1 allude : — While I believe that the eatablishment of a, comprehensive system of government, and of an effectual union between the different provinces, would produce this important effect on the gene ral feelings of ita inhabitants, I am inclined to attach very great importance tp the influence which itwould have in giving greater scope aud satisfaction to the legitimate umbiMon of the most active and prorniueut persoi.sto be found in them. As long as personal arnijiiiou isiiihereatiu human nature, and as loug as the morality of every free and civilized community encourages ita aspira tions, it is one great bubiueas of a wise govern ment to provide for its legitimate developraent. If, aa is commonly asserted, the disorders ofthese colonies have, in great measure, been fomented by the influence of designing and ambitioua indi viduals, this evil will be beat remedied byaUowing such a scope for the desires of such men as ahall direct their ambition into the legitimate chance of furthering, and not of thwarting their govern ment. By creating high prizea in a general and reaponsible government, we shall immediately afford the meana of pacifying the turbulent ambi- tiona, and of employing in worthy and noble oc- cupationa the talenta which are now only exerted to foment diaorder. Lord Durham well knew what he waa about when he recommended the beatowal of placea and honors on the ambitioua in dividuala who made a diaturbance, and the Hon. Attorney General for Lower Canada made a great disturbance and stir in 1836 and IBS'/; he was present at the meeting of the five counties, when he donned the cap of liberty. (Hear, hear.) Lord Durham says, " Give places to the principal men, and you wiU see how they will sacrifice their countrymen and submit to England." And indeed it is that course which haa met with the greateat auocesa ; and it haa been seen that all those who impeded the movement in Lower Canada againat the union, and all thoae who exclaimed, " Hold your tongues ; the union has saved us I" have been re warded. Some have been knighted ; on others, honora, plaoea and power have been conferred; and the Hon. Attorney General for Lower Canada will receive hia reward, aa they did, and wUlbe made a baronet, if he can aucceed in carrying hia meaaure of Confederation — a meaaure which England so ardently desires, (Hear, hear.) For my part, I do not envy him his reward; but I cannot witness with aatiafaction the efforts he makes to obtain it by means of a raeasure of Confederation which I believe to be fatal to the interests of Lower Canada. I am determined, therefore, to do everything in my power to prevent the realization of his hopes. (Cheers.) Mr. j. B. E. DORION— Before I proceed to examine the question which engages our attention, Mr. Speaker, I wish to premise that in any expression of my sentiments, I speak on behalf of no politioal party, but for myself only. In discussing a proposition which so intimately affects the destiny of Canada, and ail that we value most, I would rise above peraonal and party conaiderationa, in order that I may look at it from a vantage point removed from party influencea. Why, Mr. Speaker, are we engaged thia evening in diacuaaing a Confederation of the Provincea of Britiah North America? Becauae we had, last year, a Bliniaterial crisia, from which aroae a proposal for the union of the two political parties who divided public opinion. 857 The Macdonald-Tach^ Ministry, who re presented the Conservative party in the coun try, had just been defeated in the Legislative Assembly ; they were obliged to resign. It wUl be recollected that tbe Government were beaten on a question of mal-administration of the public business. I allude to the advance of $100,000 made to the Grand Trunk Rail way without authority of Parliament, for whioh act several members of the Cabinet were responsible. Could you inform me, Mr. Speaker, what haa beeome of the $100,000 question? Alas 1 it disappeared in the Minis terial crisis, and left us the extraordinary Coalition which now governs us, composed of men who for ten years treated each other as men devoid of political principle I (Hear, hear.) The Conservative party clung so tenaciously to power, .that they were not appalled by the position to which they had brought the country. Any union or coalition between two political parties, of opposite principles,- proves an abandonment of prin ciple by one or the other. All coalitions are vicious in their very foundation : they have always been held as proofs of political profli gacy, in England as everywhere elae ; and they are the more dangerous that they are generally strong. To the present Coalition wc are in debted for the scheme of the Confederation of the British Provinces in a tangible form. Had that Coalition never been formed, we sbould never have heard of the Quebec Conference, nor of the resolutions adopto'i at that meeting in October last, and now sub mitted to our consideration. Now, who au thorised tbe holding of that Conference? What right had that body to arrogate to itself the power of propoaing a radical change in our political condition ? How was Canada represented there ? Three-fourths of the Ca nadian delegates were men under the ban of parliamentary c, ndemnation. How was the voting carried on at that Convention ? Waa it not by provincea ? H ave not the four little provinces below had twice as many votes on each question as the two large provinces of Canada ? These questions all occur naturally. If to each of them a categorical answer were rendered, we should be able to throw s^me light on the way in which the interests of the country havebeen neglected, overridden, and sacrificed. If we only think that to the last question no other answer could be rendered thau an affirm ative, there is no room for wonder that the Lower Provinces had all the advantage in the arrangeraents concluded at the Conl'erence. Notwithstanding that the compromise was in 109 their favor, the great number of the pro vinces concerned now repudiate its provisions, according to information which reaches us every day. They seem to be afraid of us ; and notwithstanding the offers of money made to them, they will have nothing to do with a union. Our reputation for extrava gance must be very bad to frighten them to that degree ; and, no doubt, when they saw us speni in the course of a month or two, for receptions, in traveling and in feasting, sums equalling in araount the whole of revenue of Prince Edward Island, they must have gone back with a sorry idea of our way of manag ing public business. (Hear, hear,) I do not mean to repeat what has been said during the debate ; but before proceeding, I may be allowed to draw a contrast between our manner of acting and that of our neigh bors in the United States when con stitutional changes are in question. In the United States — that country which people take so much pains to represent as tbe hotbed of all politicil, social, moral and physical hor rors — they do not play with the written con stitutions of the several states, any more than with that of the American union. There, whenever a constitution is to be araended, generally, it requirea a vote of two-thirda of each of the two Houses. If it is the Con stitution of the United States which is to be amended, tbo measure must also be sanctioned by a majority in each ofthe legislaturea ofthe aeveral atatea. If the araendment relatea to a local '.-onatitution, beaidea a two-thirds vote of the two Houaea, the amendnient must be rati fied by a conveiition of delegatea from tbe different parties in the state, selected specially for the occaaion. The United Statea are now occupied with the consideration of an airend- ment of their Conatitution, the objectof which ia the abolition of slavery. The amendment has been adopted by the Congress and by tbo Senate of the American union, and muat be ratified by a majority of tbe local legislaturea, before it forma a part of the Conatitution. It will even be necesaary to take into the account the statea wbich are now in rebeUion. We see at once tbe guarantees they are provided with, that no radical change shall be adopted without the consent of the people, who are allowed aufficient time to weigh all the conai derationa which may operate in favor of any projected change. Thia is the raethod of pro ceeding araong our sagacious neighbors in raatters of importance; and, aa a thing of course, they have established a political status which leaves far behind it all that human 858 wisdom had previously devised to secure the peace and prosperity of the nations of the New World. But in our dear Canada, with all the English precedents of whioh so mueh account is made,we do not require such precautions. It is quite enough that pien should have been found guilty of misapplication of the public money, that they sball bave abused each other as political robbers for ten years, to bring about a coalition of the combatants, to make them hug each other till all feeling of personal dignity is lost, and all regard for principle is forgotten. It is enough, I say, that we have a scandalous union — a state of political pro fligacy — like tbat perpetrated in 1864, to believe in our right to do what we please. (Hear, hear.) "With a majority of thirty or forty votes, we hesitate at nothing. The Conatitution, which hampera the curvetinga and prancinga of our leading chiefa too much, and rather curbs thoir personal ambition — - which circumscribes in short the range of their speculative operations, is found to be inconvenient. It is aaaailed with relentless blows ; it is to be thrown down without asking the leave of those most concerned ; and in its place is to be set up a new order of things under which there is to be no more regard for political principles than for the rights and wants of the people. A simple parliamentary majority of ono will be sufficient with us to overthrow the entire poUtical order of things, and we have no appeal from so important a decision, save an appeal to an authority three thousand miles off, which may add something to the scheme to make it less acceptable to us than it already ia. (Hear, hear.) The people may hereafter condemn their repreaentativea, but the mischief will be done I Thia ia all thu conaolation we ahall have. Is not the contrast between our stupid method of doing things, and the prudent rational proceeding of our neighbors, a very atriking one ? And truly they are our auperiors in all poUtical respects. Now, let mo justify my opposition to the projected change. I am opposed to the scheme of Confederation, because the first resolution is nonsenae and repugnant to truth ; it ia not a Federal union which ia offered to ua, but a Legislative union in disguise. Federalism is completely eliminated from this scheme, which centres everything in the General Govemment. Federalism means the union of certain states, which retain their full sovereignty in everything that imme diately concerns them, but submitting to the General Government questions of peace, of war, of foreign relations, foreign trade, cus- toins and postal service. Is that what is proposed to us ? Not at all. In the scheme we are now examining, all is strength and power, in the Federal Government ; all is weakneas, insignificance, annihilation in the Local Government I I am opposed to the scheme of Confederation, because, far from removing the difficulties complained of between Upper Canada and Lower Canada, it must, if adopted, simply multiply them tenfold. There will be a constant conflict of authoritiea, particularly as to questions sub mitted to the double action of the local and general legislatures. I am opposed to the scheme of Confederation, because the Constitu tion in which it is to be embodied wUl be faulty in its very basis. We are told that the representation is to be based upon popu lation in one House, and that the prinoiple of equality is to prevail in the other ; and to-day that principle is violated as regards New foundland, as it wiU be, no doubt, to-morrow in favor of British Columbia and Vancouver Island, should those colonies think proper to enter into our proposed Confederation. What is to prevent the smaller provinces forming a league together, and thus getting the upper hand ofthe larger but less numerous provinces, on purely local questions ? That is one ofthe great defects of the Ministerial scheme, in my opinion. But, moreover, the autonomy of Lower Canada is menaced and placed at the mercy of a parliament of one hundred and ninety-four members, of whom forty-seven, or at most forty-eight only, wiU represent the views of the majority of its people. I am opposed to the scheme of Confederation, be cause it takes away from the people of this country political rights which they have won by many years of struggles; among others that of electing its repreaentatives in the Le gislative Council, as it does its represent.i- tives in the Assembly. Since 1856, we have enjoyed an elective CouncU. For more than half a century that reform had been asked for. Our claima were urged in the press, in public meetings, in petitiona to Parliament and to the home Govemment, and in the form of direct motiona in the House. The Legislative CouncU, as constitu ted previous to the Act of 1856, had become highly unpopular ; it had also fallen into a state of utter insignificance. By infusing into it the popular element by means of periodical elections, it was galvanised into life and became quite another body in the estim ation of the people. The electoral system completely restored its prestige, entitled it to 859 the respect of the people, and gave it an im portance it did not previously possess. Since the Council has been made elective, not a siijgle complaint has appeared against its new constitution, in the press, or in the form of public meetings, petitions or motions in the House. Has it produced any evil effects in the administration of the affairs of the country? Has the Gov ernment suffered from it ? Has fhe Mother Country found any bad results from it? Has the country been the worse for it ? And in what respect? Answer, you who desire to deprive tiie people of the right to elect that House, though they have not asked you to do so, and though you yourselves hold your seats by their will ? The elective Legislative Council represents better the character, the wants and the aspirations of our Canadian society, than the Council appointed for life ever did. With regard to the talent of the country, it has represented it as well as it was represented under the old system. With regard to its moderation and its conservative spuit, experience has shewn that it possessed these two qualities to a degree surpassing the expectation of all parties. I do not hesitate, therefore, to say that the change was a change for the better in every respect ; that it satis fied and tranquiUized public opinion, and that it secured to the country a more direct control over public affairs. Lower Canada has tested both systems of nomination, that by the Crown and that by the people, and it does not ask to retum to the former. We had a life-nominated Council for half a century in Canada. Every one knows that the acts of that very Council drove the people of Lower Canada into rebeUion in 1837 I One of the great arguments advanced in support of the proposed scheme is that the electoral divisions are very extensive, and that the rich alone, by means of their wealth, can attain a seat in that House. It costs so much now-a-days, it is said, to carry an election ! If that argument were of any value aa regards the Legislative CouncU, it should have equal weight aa regards the House of Assembly. To be consistent, you you should have asked also for the appoint ment of the members of the Assembly, in place of having them elected by the people I But that ia not the true reaaon. And beaides, let those who do not wish to spend money remain at home, if the people refuse to elect them without being paid. Let corruption cease ; adopt vote by baUot, which wiU des troy corruption, and there wiU bono need' of inventing imaginary grievances in order to restrict the liberties of the people. This Tory scheme wiU throw us back fifty years. It is nothing else than a plot ! (Hear, hear.) I am opposed to this scheme of Confederation, because we are offered local parliaments which will be simply nonentities, with a mere semblance of power on questions of minor importance. When we shall have seen the Local Parliament in operation with its restricted powers (res tricted except as regards expenditure, extrav agance, and the power of taxing real property), it wUl soon be found, as it is in faot destined to become, a mere taxing machine. Nothing more, nothing less I The expenditure of Lower Canada for justice, education, asylums, hospitals, courts, prisons, interest on the debt, &c. , &c ., added to the expen se of a Loc al G overn- ment and Parliament, will exceed $2,000,000. The revenue wUl fall far short of that amount. Direct taxation would be a necessary conse quence of the establishment of the new sys tem, without any compensation for the fresh burthen which the people must bear. I have said enough to shew the difference between the American federal system and that proposed for our adoption. In the American union each state is sovereign over all that immediate ly concerns it. Here, everything would be submitted to the General Parliament. Lower Canada is opposed to free trade in money, and desires to limit the rate of interest ; and yet this she could not do, inasmuch as that very ordinary question would be under the control of the General Parliament. Whether the principle be a sound one or not, it is admitted that nine-tenths of our people desire that the rate of interest should be fixed. Each state of the American union regulates questions of this kind as it chooses, without the intervention of neighboring states, or of the ¦Washington Government. Thus, the rate of interest varies in a great many of the states, and in others it is not fixed. In Vermont the rate is six per cent.; in New York, seven per cent.; in Ohio, ten per cent.; in Illinois, thirty per cent.; and in the other states, trade in money is free. These are facts which prove that the real Federal system resembles in no sense that which we are asked to adopt. (Hear, hear.) I might give a host of facts of this kind in support of my position ; but I shall confine myself to one. It is well known that the people of Lower Canada are almost unanimous in repudiat ing the principle of divorce. Nevertheless, under Confederation the ParUament of Lower Canada is not to have the right of regulating 860 that queation according to its wishes ; but the Federal Parliiment, sitting at Ottawa, will be empowered to force upon us principles utterly opposed to our own, and even to establish a Court of Divorce at Quebec. Under the Federal ayatem, nothing ao unjuat, nothing ao revolting to the feelinga cf the people could occur. In the American union there arc some states in which divorce ia permitted, and othera in whieh it is not — another proof that sovereignty may be veated in each state, without detriment to the union. (Hear, bear.) I am oppoaed to the acheme of Confederation, becauae the courta of juatice of Lower Canada wUl be under the control of the General Governnent. We should have courts of juatice in Lower Canada, but the judges who would sit in them would be a| pointed by the Govemment of the Confederation. It would be theaarae in the other provinces ; but Lower Canada, with her lawa, which are peculiar to her, ought especia.ly to reaiat the interference of the General Government iu the administra tion of juatice. It wUl be aaid tbat the Con- feren e endeavored to cause their intentions to be auspected, and it haa already been urged that thia airangement is a stroke of the lawyera, who would prefer to aee the nomina tion of the judgea vested in the General Govern ment, because they wculd receive -igher salariea, rather than aee them appointed by the local govemmenta, who would be obliged to hflve recourae to direct taxation in order to pay their aalarica. But setting aaide thia idea, I aaaert that the appointme-.it of the judges in each province by the General Gov ernraent appears to me an uncalled-for inter ference, an anomaly which cannot be too strongly opposed. (Hear, hear.) I am opposed to the scheme of Confederation, becauae the local go-vemors would only be tools in the hands of the General Government, who would interfere in the local matters by the continual pressure they would bring to bear on them whenever they desired to change the opinions of the local parliaments, elected by the people in each province, on any queation which they might bave to diacuaa. "Why have the local govemmenta, with the insignificant powers which it ia propoaed to confer upon them — •why, I say, have they not been allowed to elect their respective governors ? Would there be any more harm in thia than reaulta from the electiona of mayora in our large towna ? There was once a time when even the wardena were_ appointed by the Government. Haa tho election of mayora and wardena been produc tive of evil or diacontent throughout the coun try ? I am oppoaed to the acheme of Confeder ation, because by means of the right of veto vested in the Governor by the 51st resolution, local legislation will be nothing but a farce. Tliey may try to make us believe that thia power would be bat rarely exerciaed, and that it differa in nowise from that exerciaed by the present Govemor when he reserves bills for the Royal assent ; but all the country knows that it would not be so. From the moment that you bring the exercise of the right of veto more nearly witbin the reach of inter-, ated parties, you increase the number of oppor tunities for the exercise of the right--you open the door to intrigues. As, for instance, a party will oppoae the pasaing of a law, and not aucceeding in his opposition in ParUa ment, he will approach the Blinisters and the Governor General, intriguing to obtain as a favor tbat the law may be disaUowed. 'Take an example. I suppose your Confederation to be establiahed ; that a bill is passed for the protection of settlers, such aa we have seen pass the House six times in ten years without becoming law, on account of the opposition to it in the Legislative CouncU by the council lors from Upper Canada ; what would happen ? The few interested parties who were oppoaed to the measure would ruah to the Governor General to induce him to diaallow the law. By an appeal to the right of property, to the respect due to acquired righta, and to other aophistriea, they would override the will of the people on a meaaure whioh is juat in itaelf, and whicb ia aought for and approved of by all legal men of Lower Canada in the present Houae. The people of Lower Canada wiU be prevented from obtaining a law similar to thoae now exiating in thirteen different atatea of the American union, and which would in no way affect the principles of the existing law in Lower Canada. (Hear, hear.) Thia ia one inatance out of a thouaand, and will aerve to iUuatrate the effect of thia right of veto. I am opposed to the acheme of Con federation, becauae I cannot see wby, on the one h md, it haa been agreed to give aU tho public landa to the Government of each pro vince, and on the other hand that the Govern ment ahould purchase the lands in the Ialand of Newfoundland. The General Government ' gives up the fertUe lands of Upper and Lower Canada, but it purcliases the barren lands of Newfoundland at th-.' enormous price of $150,000 per annum, a a- m representing a capital of $2,500,000. Is not this a grand 861 speculation for the country ? The Govemment at Ottawa wUl not possess a single inch of land in Canada, New Brunswick or Nova Scotia, but they will have a Land Department for the management of their superb possessions in Newfoundland ? Is it imagined that if the pub lic lands of that island had been of any value, they would have been given up to the Gen eral Government fbr any timount? No, the fact is that these lands are utterly useless for cul tivation, that the whole island does not produce hay enough for the town of St. Johns, and that every year large quantities of it are im ported. I know a farmer in Three Rivers who has sent cargoes of hay to Newfoundland, and who is now only waiting for the naviga tion to open to send more — and these are tho landa which it is proposed to buy for a fabu lous price, in order to induce that province to come into the Confederation. (Hear.) But there is also another matter for consideration with respect to this arrangement regarding the public lands. I am of opinion that it is more advantageous to the progress of coloni zation of our wild lands that they should remain in the hands of the present Govem ment, rather than come into the possession of a local govemment, whioh might, perhaps, be obliged to maintain itself by direct taxation ; for in that case the very uttermost farthing due on these landa will have to be collected. In a country like Lower Canada, with ita rigoroua climate, colonization muat be aided and encouraged if reasonable progress is de manded. In that view the Govei nment have made free grants, and have remitted many claims for interest on the public lands. Had they not done so, fhe population in certain sections would have been forced to leave the country. Remisaions and free grants will dia appear with the appearance of direct taxation. 1 am oppoaed to tlie acherae of Confederation, becauae it ia most unjustly proposed to enrich the Lower Provinces with annuities and dona- tiona, to persuade and induce them to enter into a union whicii will be injurious to all the contracting parties. I am opposed to the soheme of Confederation, because the division of the public debts of the several provinces has been made in an unjust way, and because no portion of these debts ought to have been impoaed on the local govemmenta, which, in the event of the union, ought to have begun anew without being burthened with debt. I am oppoaed to the Confederation, becau-e I foreaee difficulties without number in relation to the concurrent powers oo several pointa conferred on the general and local govemmenta. Col lisions on these points wUl always be settled in favor of the stronger party, to the advan tage of fhe General Govemment, and to the detriment of the often just claims of the dif ferent provinces. I am opposed to Con federation, becauae the premium ofi'ered to New Brunawick ia of a moat extraordinary character. It has been agreed to pay her $63,000 por annum for ten years. The sum to pay this will have to be borrowed every year. Intereat will have to be paid upon it, so that at the expiration of ten years the Con federation will have paid to New Brunswick : Capital $630,000.00 Interest ou capital 105,000.00 $735,000.00 And what will it have received in exchange ? Nothing whatever I For the sum agreed to be paid to Newfoundland there is at least a aemblance of direct corapenaation in the ces sion which it makea of ita barren landa. But in the caso of New Brunswick, there ia no thing to be got frora her for theae $735,000, on which intereat will have to bo paid long after the fen yeara have expired. (Hear, hear.) And that ia not all ; we are to pay intereat to New Brunawick, at tho rate of tivo per cent., on $1,250,000, for the difference between her debt and that of Canada in pro portion to their respective populations. (Hoar, hear.) I am oppoaed to the soheme of Con federation, becauae it haa been agreed to con atruct the Halifax Railway without a notion of what it will cost, and at a time when we have already as much tq pay aa our reaources can boar, without plunging into ruinous and unproductive enterprises of this kind. There is no exaggeration in the statement that at least $20,000,000 wUl be required for the ex ecution of that entoi prise. Of what uae will it be? Doubly uaeleaa in a militii-y and in a commercial point of view. We aro not in a poaition to undertake it for the mere pleaaure of having a road which will place ua in direct communication with the sea over English ter ritory. What would the Intercolonial Rail- W'ly be worth i i a oommercial point of view? In aum, ner we have the St. Lawrence, which affords means of communication muoh more economical in their nature than any railway. In winter, without taking info account the difficulties cauaed by the vaat quantity of anow which falla between Quebec and Hali fax, ia it suppoaed that there will be many travellera who will adopt that route, six hun dred miles in length, to reach the seaboard at 862 Halifax, when they may reach Portland by a railway not moro than one-third aa long aa the propoaed road ? Does any suppose that a person having flour to export will send it to Halifax, when he can despatch it by Port land ? There is no sentiment in trade ; it takes the road which it finds to be the ahort- eat and the moat profitable, and all your Con federation will not change thia immutable law of trade in all countriea. (Hear, hear.) But, it is said, this road will be of great uae in time of war aa a military route. Have thc^e who talk in thia way ever thought of the trifling distance that separates that road from American territory in certain places ? Have they ever thought how easy it would be, in a single night, to destroy enough of it to m^e it unserviceable for months together ? Have they ever thought how many soldiers would be rec^uired to protect it and keep it in opera tion ? The experience of the preaent Amer ican war teaches us that to keep a railway in operation, nearly as many soldiers are required as there are lineal feet to protect. (Hear, hear.l I am oppoaed to the acheme of Con federation, because it is proposed to ensure, to guarantee the fulfilment of all engage- menta whioh shaU have been entered into with the Imperial Government by all the pro vincea up to the time of union on the subject of the defence of the country, without the nature and extent of those engagements being known. There ia perhapa no cjueation in all the reaolutiona of the Conference of higher iraportance than thia. Yet it is wiahed to make us ratify all these engagements with our eyes shut. What do we know about the engagements which "the Governments of Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, Newfoundland and Prince Edward Island may have entered iuto on the subject of their respective defences ? What do we know even of the engagements entered into by our own Government with the English Government in relation to the same queation? Nothing; we can know nothing of them. -^Ve are told that the oor reapondence on the aubject of the defences cannot be submitted to ParUament uuder existing circumatancea. Why then should we blindly vote on questiona of auch grave im portance ? I am oppoaed to Confederation becauae it is wiahed to make us enter into a financial arrangement which it is frightful to consider, and one which ia moat diametri cally opposed to the interests of Canada Let us -aee what is proposed iu thia respect. Ihe Confederation would have us to pay— For land in the Ialand of Newfound- laud $ 2,500,000 Indemnity to New Brunawick 735,840 For the HaUfax Railway 20,000,000 Difference in the debt of the provincea : Nova Scotia 3,000,000 Newfoundland 2,300,000 New Brunswick 1,250,009 Prince Edward Island 1,840,000 For fortifications in the six pro vincea 25,000,000 For the North-West road 5,000,000 Por military expenditure 5,000,000 Add the public debt of Cauada 1573,000,000 Other unliquidated lia bilities of Canada. . . 5,000,000 Debt of Nova Scotia. . 8,000,000 Deht of New Brunawick 7,000,000 Debt of Prince Edward Island 244,673 Debt of Newfoundland 946,000 366,625,840 94,190,673 $160,816,513 Here we have a pretty balance-aheet, not one item of which is exaggerated, and which ia offered to ua by Confederation. All thia is excluaive of the enormoua expenae of fhe general and local governments. Some of the aums just mentioned wiU not be payable at once, but nearly all of them will be so before fi-ve years have elapaed ; suma aa conaiderable will be payable at once, it may be said, if we enter in the account the expensea of the Con federation and its unforeseen enterprises. At the last census, all the provinces only con tained 3,294,056 souls. Supposing them to contain 3,500,000 at the time of the union, the debt, with the foregoing liabUities, would amount to $45 for each man, woman and chUd, and of that debt wc should have to pay the interest. (Hear, hear.) I am opposed to Confederation, becauae I cannot see the use or the necesaity of it in a c ommercial point of view. Countries yielding different products may gam considerably by uniting. What do the Lower Colonies produce ? Do they not live in a climate sinular to ours ? Do they iiot produce simUar grain to that grown in Canada ? What trade could there be between two farmers who produced nothing but oats ? Neither one nor the other would want for them. They might stand and atare at each other with their oats before them, without over being able to trade together; they would require a third person— a purchaser. In such a poaition are we with regard to the adjacent 863 colonies. Should we go for ice to the Lower Colonies ? I think there is enough of it in Canada, especiaUy at Quebec, and will be so long as sufficient spirit of enterprise is not displayed to export it to hot climates. They talk to us of fish — but those we have in our own waters — and of coal as a very great affair. BiR. T. C. WALLBRIDGE— The Lower Provinces have reserved the right of placing an export duty on their coal. Mr. j. B. E. DORION— My honorable friend reminds me that wo shall not be able to obtain coal from the provinoes which wUl form part ofthe Confederation,* without paying them a tax. Is not that admirable ? We are to constitute a single people, a single country, but there wUl be taxes to pay for trading with each other in certain articles. (Hear, hear.) I should understand the commercial advan tages which we should gain if the English Provinces were situated in dift'ercnt climates, yielding every kind of produce, which should be freely exchanged. That which built up the commercial prosperity of the United Statea is their geographical poaition — their imraense territory, in which is to be found every climate imagmable, from the north producing ice, to the south producing the moat delicious fruita. An inhabitant of Maine may load a vessel with ice, proceed to New Orleans and barter his cargo of ice for rice, sugar, tobacco, &c., with which he may return home without paying a single farthing of customs duties. It is thia free and continual exchange of their varioua producta from Maine to California which has placed the United States in the first rank of commercial nations in so short a time. (Hear, hear.) Let us not, therefore, be lulled with fancies of tho great commercial advantages we shall derive from a Confeder ation of the provinces. We have wood, they produce it ; we produce potash, and so do they. AU that they would require would be a little flour, and that Upper Canada can sup ply to them now without paying any tax for doing so. Again, our trade with them cannot be very considerable, because there aro natural obstacles in the way to prevent its being so. Si tuated in the same degree as ourselves in respect of climate, they produce what we produce, and what we want they want — a foreign market wherein to diapose of their surplus products. Besides, the commercial advantages may all be obtained by a mere commercial union, apart from a political union. England concluded a commercial treaty with the United States, by means of which we trade freely with them in all products of the soil and of the fisheries. What objection could there be to the estab lishment of a system of free trade between the colonies, whioh are all subject to the same authority ? They would then enjoy all the advantages that could result, without entering into a political union, the depths of which we arc not able to fathom. (Hear, hear.) I am opposed to Confedera tion, because instead of giving us strength to defend ourselves, it will prove to be a source of incalculable weaknesa. How can it bo believed that by adding 700 miles to our long frontier, we shall strengthen ourselves against the enemy, when the territory to be added does not yet contain inhabitants enough to defend it ? Is it supposed that if we had a war with the Americans, they would not attack the Engliah Provincea at all points ? They Would attack Newfoundland, Prince Edward Island, Nova Scotia and New Brunswick, as well as the two Canadas. A country without depth, like that which it is proposed to form here, has not its like under the sun. It would be vulnerable at all points along its frontier of 1,600 to 1,800 miles. In geo graphical form it would resemble an eel. Its length would be everything, ita breath nothing. Nothing would be eaaier than to cut il into little pieces, and none of the parta so sliced off' oould send help to the others. The more of snch country as the provinces which it ia wiahed to unite to ua that we have, the weaker ahall we be, and the greater will be our difficultiea in relation to military defencf). (Hear, hear.) I am oppoaed to the acheme of Confederation, becauae I conaider that it is the result of a conspiracy against popular rights in Canada, and that the hope is to impel the people into a course fatal to their real interests, by causing to shine before their eyes all sorts of wonders which would be accomplished in the end to the prosperity of the country, if that country would only accept the new form of Government which it is proposed to force upon it. (Hear.) I am opposed to the scheme of Confederation, becauae it ia proposed to perpetuate, on a still greater scale, a state of things which is not suitable to the populations of America when they attain to years of discretion — a atato of thinga which evidently waa not in tended for a country in which there are no caatea, no privileged classes and no heredi tary aristocracy — in which all are equal, socially and politically, by force of circum stances. I am opposed to the scheme of Confederation, because I am desirous that we should be as untrammelled as possible in 864* the selection of tbe future form of Govern ment for Canada, when we shall emerge from the colonial condition. I am free to admit that I do not paiticipate in the illu sions of certain persons in respect to tbe magnificent destinies of the erapire fo bo founded by us in North America, and that I am far frombelievingthatitwould be toour advantage. lamopposed to the acheme of Con federation, becauae Ideny that thia Houae has power to change the political constitution of the country, as it ia now propoaed to do, without appealing to the people and obtain ing their views oo a matter of such irapor tance. These are the principal reaaons which induce me to oppose the acheme brought down by the Government. But these are not all ; I have yet many other ccnsidera- tions to urge. The gate of the future destinies of the country was opened when this scheme was laid before us, and I too am desiroua of penetrating within ita portala. I have said tfiat the new organization which it ia wiahed to establish here dees not auit either our reaources or our wants. It would appear that we cannot attain in Canada a reasonable limit aa regarda tbo adminiatra tion of public affaira. Our aystem ia not found to be extiavagant enough, and it is wished to substitute for it one still more costly. Our neighbors have eatablished an economical political ayatem, which ia much more advantageoua to them than ours would be to auy country. Wo pay hero muoh more than ia paid in the United States, although that people ia infinitely richer than we are. If we prepare a liat of tho salaries paid to the governors of the st.itea in the union, with a view of comparing it wilh the list of aalariea which we pay'here to our principal public employes, we shall be aur priaed at the difference which will be found to exiat to our disadvantage. Here ia a table of the salaries of tfie governora, to gether with the population of each state :— ¦ -States. Population. Salaries. 1. Maine ff28,276 . . . .$1600 2. JS-ew Hampshire . 226,073 . . 1000 3. Vermont 315,098.. 1000 4. Massachusetta 1,231,066 . 3500 5. Rhode Island 174,620... 1000 6. Connecticut 460.147. 1100 7. New York ,3,880,735 . .'.' 4^00 8. New Jersey 672,035 .... 8000 9. Pennsylvania 2,906,115 .... 4000 10. Delaware 112 216 .... l.s:-iH| 11 M,ryland..._ 687 049 . . . . 3600 ]l' S^'! y'^S'."'-^ 393,234 .... 2000 13. East Virginia 1,261,397 .... 3000 Siatea. Population. Salaries. 14. Kentucky 1,155,684 2i00 15. Ohio 2,339,502 1800 16. Michigan 749,113 1000 17. Indiana 1,350,428 ...3000 18. Illinois 1,711,951 1500 19. Missouri 1,182,012 3000 20. Iowa 674,942 2000 21. 'Wisconsin 775,881 2000 22. Minnesota 173,855 1500 23. Kanaas 107.206 2000 24. California 379,994 7000 25. Oregon 52,465 1500 There are also ton other states which were in rebellion at tbe beginning of the year 1^64, the date of the table wbich I have given. It will be seen that Ver mont pays only $1,000 a year to an elec tive governor. That ia less th,?n we pay here to the mayors of our great cities. The State of New York, which is by itself more rich and populous than the whole of Canada, only pays $4,000 a year to her Governor. I will not compare thia aalary with that of our Governor, amounting to $32,000 ; but by comparing it with that of our judges of the second-class, it will be found that the latter receive higher salariea than the Governor of the State of New York. (Hear, h-^ar.) The State of Ohio, more rich and more populous than Canada, only pays $1,800 to her Governor, If the aalariea are comparatively small in the United States, it is becauae it waa understood there that good adminiatration of public affairs might be obtained by the practice of a wiae economy, withcut that diaplay of luxury which ia ruining ua here. Another com pariaon, on a amaUer acale, mij;ht be made between the State of New York and Canada, in reapect of another matter. It is this : — The State of New York poaaeaaea magnifi cent canala, which coat her an enormoua price ; but the revenue produced by them iiaa paid their cost, whilst here our canala, whioh alao cost ua very dear, do not even pay the intereat of the debt which waa contracted for their conatruction, and that ia a point of difference by no meana of amaU magnitude. The State of New York con tracted a further debt Jor the enlargement of her oanala after the revenue produced by them had paid off that which had been contracted for their conatruction ; and the revenue which they yield is aufficient not only to pay the interest of that debt, but also to create a sinking fund which will allow of its liquidbtion in five years from the present day. Last year the State of 865 New York received from her canals the sum of $5,118,501.35; the expenses of manage ment amounted to $111,503.78, and those of repairs to $659,378.74, forming a total of $770,882.52, which left a net revenue of $4,.347,618,83, after paying all expenses of management and costs of maintenance, (Hear, hear.) Do you know what was done with that surplus ? It was applied as fol lows : — Sinhing Fund under 1 Art. 7. . . $1,700,000 do do 2 Art. 7... .350,000 do do 3 Art. 2... 1,116,242 To the Treaaury towarda paying the expenaea of the atate. . . . 200,000 $3,366,242 Leaving a balance of $981,376.17 after hav ing met all engagementa in relation to the Sinking Fund, and paid a sum of $200,000 towarda the coat of the governraent of the state. Here, when a school or sinking fund ia created, it is expended, or borrowing haa to be had recourae to in order to meet it. Let ua then compare the management of our oanals with that of the canals of New York. Here the tolls on certain of our canals are abolished with the view of favoring trade, inatead of a reaaonable revenue being levied from thoae great works ! (Hear, hear.) The total debt of the State of New York on the 30th September, 1863, was as follows : — Conaohdated debt $6,505,654 37 Canal debt 2.3,268,310 25 Total recorded $29,77'iJ,964 62 In the course of the same year, $3,116,242 waa paid into the sinking fund, and there remained stUl five and a half millions in hand produced by tbe canals, so that in less than ten years the canal debt and the special debt of the state will be entirely paid off. Shall we be able to say aa much of our own debt iu ten yearatime ? (Hear, hear.) I repeat then, that the financial aystem of our neighbours ia greatly superior to ours, and that they pay reasonable salaries to their public officers, while auch payments here are on an extra vagant acale. If I speak of all this, it is because I am opposed to the scheme, and be cause it ia wiahed to establish a monarchy, a new kingdom on this continent, and because a tleaire ia manifested to have a court, a nobility, a viceroy, tinsel, and so on, I am alarmed at the position in which it is Wished to place us, for from extravagance it 110 is proposed, with all these absurd and ridic ulous schemes, to pasa to folly, (Hear, hear.) The commercial criaia through which we passed in 1846, when England repealed the import duty on foreign grain brought to her markets, will be remembered. Before that period our grain and other produce were protected on the English marketa in being admitted free of duty, while that from the Black Sea and the United Statea was subject to a duty which waa high enough to afford great protection in favor of oura. This new policy in relation to the colonies was productive of disastroua conaequences to Canadian trade. The exportation of grain to England was completely put a stop to. There was no longer an outlet for that produce. To get to the United States mar kets twenty per cent, had to be paid. Well, the long and terrible crisis which followed the abolition of this protection of our pro duce, and whieh raged during tbe years 1847, '48, '49, may be remembered. Be^jin- ning in 1847 there was a disastrous commer cial crisis in Canada. Failures followed each other with rapidity, and difficulty was everywhere felt. Matters had not greatly improved in 1848. It was evident that a fresh outlet for the agricultural produoo of Canada must be found in order to enaure to her aatiafactory relief. Diacontent mani feated itaelf, and agitation became apparent. Argumenta and negotii.tiona were had with the politioal men of England, but without any aatiafactory reault being attained. It waa then thought that a solution of the commercial difficulties of the country was to be found in political changes. Hence followed the annexation movement of 1849. The obtention of a political change of this character would at once open to Canada all the markets of the United States, and would, without any doubt, have ensured the material prosperity of the country. The annexation movement raet with con siderable sympathy in the Northern States ofthe American union, but in tbe South it excited alarm. Fear was entertained of thel influence which would have been conferred] upon the North, by the accession of territory of suoh considerable extent as the two Canadas, at first, and subaequently of all thel Engliah Provincea. The Government of the United Statea was in the handa of poli tical men from the South. To avert the danger which threatened their influence, that Govorument shewed themselves favor able to a oommercial agreement with the 866 Engliah Government. Both were iutereated in a commercial connection which left ua nothing to envy in tbe lot of our neighbora. In the Canadian Parliament the question of commercial reciprocity with the United Statea was taken up. The Imperial Gov ernment approved of the steps taken by the Canadian Govemment, which tended to place their agriculturists on a footing of equality with the Americana on tbeir markets. On the 16th Blarch, 1855, the Reciprocity treaty entered into by the United Statea and England, came into force, after having been ratified by the Canadian Parliament. Lengthy debatea took place in the American Congress upon the queation, but aouthern influence carried the meaaure through. The Reciprocity treaty waa to continue for ten yeara, from the 16th Blarch, 1855, without ita being poaaible to repeal it ; but if one or the other of the contracting parties should think fit, after the expiration of the ten years, they might demand the abrogation of the treaty, by giving the other party one year's notice. The question of the repeal of that treaty has, therefore, for two or three years, been agitated in the American Con greaa with some warmth, by those who found their interests to auffer by it. The opponenta of the Reciprocity treaty succeeded in Congreaa for two reasona : firat, on ac count of a feeling of indignation raiaed up againat Canada, by a part of our preaa, which displayed hostility to the Northern States ; and second, because the rebellioua Southern Statea were not represented in the American Government. On the 16th March next, the Preaident ia to give that notice, and on the 16th Blarch, 1866, the markets of the United States will be cloaed to ua. _ (Hear, hear.) We have seen that atthe time the American Government, which waa then in the handa of politioiana from the Southem States, waa not favorable to the annexation of Canada to the United Statea, becauae thoae atatesmen dreaded tbe influ ence which two new free statea in the union would bring to bear in relation to slavery. The ten years of the treaty consequently terminate on the 1.6th March in the preaent year, and thanka to the behavior of a very large portion of the Canadian preaa in re lation to the Government of the United Statea, since the beginning of the war which now desolates the American Republic, the no tice of the final abrogation ofthat treaty within a year is to be given to us. It will have existed for eleven years, and its abrogation wUl certainly be a great misfortune to our country. It may be said that tbe treaty is aa advantageous to the United States a^ it is - to ouraelves, and that its abrogation will do as much harm to them as to us; but the ill they wiU undergo in consequence will not remedy our evil, and will not prevent the United States markets from being closed to ua, and our being subaequently compelled to pay a conaiderable duty for the privilege of carrying our produce thither, such as our oats, our horses, our horned cattle, our aheep, our wool, our butter, &c. The 16th March, 1865, will be a day of mourning for Canada, but the 16th March, 1?66, will be a day of muoh deeper mourning, for it will mark the commencement of a commercial crisis such as we have never perhaps undergone, and the disastrous results of which to the future of the country are beyond calculation. (Hear, hear.) In order to understand the whole importance of this treaty to the prosperity of the country, it is necessary to know what passes in the country parts, as I myself am in a position to know through my constant relations with those parts. All the o-.;ts pro duced in the country from Trois Pistoles to the upper extremity ofthe province are exported to the United States, where they find a ready market, becauae they are wanted there. This year persons went as far as Three Rivers for them by way of the Artbabaska Railway. This branch of trade is now very consider able ; but the very moment we have to pay an export duty of 25 per cent, upon our produce on entering the United States, we ahall have a commercial criaia which wUl derange all buaineas operations throughout the land. When the Reciprocity treaty is declared at an end, our oats will be worth no more than Is. or la. 3d., as in former times, instead of Is. 8d, or 2s,^as at preaent; and it ia clear to all that the farmer can derive no profit from growing them at that price. Formerly, 'before the treaty was made, the farmer could make aomething by selling his oats ^ that price, becauae food was cheaper and taxes less than they now are. The latter were no more than 2J per cent, and 5 per cent., whereas they are now 20 per -cent., and wiU be increaaed rather than diminiahed, under Confederation, as certain members ofthis House have alleged. (Hear, hear.) I am thoroughly acquainted with all that passes in the country parts; and when I think of the consequences of the repeal 867 of the Reciprocity treaty, I say again, I am alarmed. "What is going on at this present moment? We all know that for several years past there have been bad harvests ; that of last year was not good, not in Lower Canada only, but also in Upper Canada; and since New Year's day, half the country people in Lower Canada have been buying the flour necessary for their subsistence. All they spend in the purchase of flour, from this time till the harvest is gathered in, is capital which ought to be applied to the payment of their numerous debts. It is capital withdrawn from the working and improvement of their lands. Trade already feels the effects of it. The imports are more limited ; a good deal of last year's stock of goods in the cities remains unsold. The public revenue will be considerably affected by it, and the surplus of 1864 will in 1865 become a deficit. It is not necessary to be a prophet to augur so muoh. (Hear, hear.) I say, then, that we are on the brink of a commercial crisis, and it is not such a scheme as that before ns that will enable us to avoid it, when we need rather to practise the strictest economy in our public expendi ture. There is a great movement in pro gress from Lower Canada to the United States, notwithatanding the war ; that ia to say, people are obliged to leave Canada for the United States in order to earn money to pay debts which they have been compelled to contract for the necessaries of life. In many country places people are shutting up their houses and setting off to the Statea ; if any proof of tbis assertion is neceaaary, visit Acton — Acton which has become a amall city since the discovery of the copper mines now worked there. Well, Mr. Speaker, half the houaea in Acton are now ahut up, although aa lately as last year the village presented every appearance of the higheat proaperity. Thia year the inhabitants are driven to leave home and country to support their families. (Hear, hear.) I say that a movement of self-banishment like that which is now going on in the winter season, is alarming; for when half the country people are obliged to buy their flour as they now are, it proves that they must continue to buy it until next autumn, after the harvest is gathered in ; and as many of them have not the means of waiting till then, they must leave the country to try to supply the wants of their families, by applying for work to our neighbors. (Hear, hear.) This move ment is in progress among the rural popula tion as well as among the mechanics, in the new townships as well as in the old. After the commencement of the war, a considerable number of Canadians, who had returned home to escape from ita evils, brought with them a small capital; but seeing the aituation of affairs in this country, and having spent what they had, they are going back to the United States, preferring rather to take their chance of the conscription for the army than to eke out a miserable existence here. I repeat, then, BIr. Speaker, that a great many housea are shut up in the new settle ments. I can specify them by the numbera of the range aq^ lot in the counties which I represent. An unseen but very extensive influence is at work in all the country south of the St. Lawrence, above Nicolet and as far as the frontier. I ahall explain it to you. In all that part of the country, a great many young men go to the United States to look for employment. These chil dren of the people find there a wider field for their enterprising minds ; in fact, they are forced to leave Canada in order to earn money. When once they are eatabliahed in the United States, they correapond with their relativea whom they have left behind them. In all their letters they describe the treatment they receive, and boast of their position, the footing they are on in their social relations with the Americans, the good wages which they receive, and the state of prosperity at which they soon arrive. Not only do they correspond, they visit Canada to see their families from time to time. On these occasions, Mr. Speaker, their com raunications are made with greater freedom ; they relate all that they have seen, and heard, and all they have learned. Be sure of this, Mr. Speaker, these communications, these intimacies between Canadians established in the States and their home friends, have greater effect to produce favorable feelings towards the Americans in our country than all the newspapers in the world. It is a portion of the heart ofthe country removed into a strange land by the force of circum stances. The accounts lihey hear from their friends prove to them that the Americans are not auch horrible monafers as they are said to be in certain quartera, and that their political institutions are far superior to ours; that every man is on a footing of equality with his neighbor, and that he possesses politioal rights of which he cannot be deprived. This influence of which I am speaking is very great, and certainly it is 868 not to be counteracted, nor the feeling of sympathy for the people and the institutiona ofthe United Statea to be repieaaed in tbe minda of thoas who confeaa it, by such changea aa thoae now propoaed to be made. (Hear, hear.) I aay that the people of Lower Canada are alarmed at the scheme of Confederation, and the unknown changes which are on foot. I do not say tbat this feeling prevaila in the diatrict of Quebec, for in that locality everybody seeras to be fast asleep ; but it exists, beyond doubt, and very warmly, in that of Blontreal, and even as far as Three Rivers, on both sidea of the river. Nothing tenda more to alienate the people frora tHeir govern ment, and render them diaaffectei to England, than the attempts now made to impoae on them a new Constitution without consulting them; for we must recollect that we are no longer in the aame social atate aa in 18 12; we no longer think in the aame manner, and people would be grjatly in error who ahould believe that the aame feel inga prevail which then prevailed. (Hear, hear.) I will not aay that the people are dialoyal ; far be it from me to expreaa such an idea ! — they are aa loyal aa thoae who accuae thera of disloyalty, but they are in clined to forra free opiniona on the acta cf their governraent and their own intereata, and there is a great difference between being loyal to Ureat Britain and fighting for a ayatera of governraent and a principle im- pused on ua aud accepted regretfully. I maintain, then, that the people are affrighted at the expenae propoaed to be made to organize what is called the defenoes of the couutry, and naturally ask each other whe ther it is right to call upon them to bear a ahare of the burthen of auch defencea, in the event of a war between our neighbora ani England, a war in which they could neither aay anything to avoid it, nor in ita progreaa take any other part than that of ahedding their blood and paying their money. They ask, moreover, whether it would not be better to remain in our present condition— whether it would not be better, even, to be smaller than to aeek greatneaa — to try to compete with our neighbors in order that we may be the aooner crushed. They say, moreover, that a atruggle between ua aod tbe United States would be a strug gle between a dwarf and a giant; for no man in his senses will aay that we could stand out against them. It is pretended that in case of a war with them, we should have asaiatance from England. That is very well; but to any body who, recolhots the Crimean war, it will be very evident, chat when England shall have sent us 30,000 soldiers, she will have given to the extreme limits of her power, and that she must reaort to Spain, and France, and Germany aud the whole continent of Europe to find soldiers. When we have 1,600 miles of frontier to defend, where should we be with our 30,000 English troops ? It would not be nineteen men to a mile. (Hear, hear.) No, we are not to imagine that a war with the United States now would be like that of 1812, and that a company of 60 men would put the American army to flight, as in the palmy days of Chateauguay ! (Hear, hear.) At this time, the army and navy of the United States are the strongest in the world, and the resources of the country inexhaustible. In four years they have built 600 vesaela of war; and the number of tbeir soldiers is told by hundreds of thouaanda. Now, peace wiU be made between tbe North and South, although it may happen not to pleaae our politicians, who are friends to slavery, and have always despised and depreciated the Government of the United Statea ; for the South cannot hold out long now that it haa loat all the towns and cities through which it could receive aaaistance from abroad. The American Constitution will come out trium phant from the trial which it is now under going. It will come out purified and refined, aud stronger than ever in the affections of the people who live under it. It waa not againat the forra ol Republican Governraent that the rebellion waa undertaken in the United Statea, seeing that the Rebel States adopted exactly the sarae system when th-ey declared their independence. They too have a President, a Senate, Representatives, a Govemment and a Legislature for every atate, juat the same as under the Ameriean Republic. (Hear, hear.) When peace ia made between the North and South, ahould we be able to reaist the combined forces of both section^ of the United States of America ? Should we be able to make a stand against their ships of war, which would overspread the ocean and the lakes — their guns which throw balls of several bun'jred pounda' weight a diatance of eight or ten milea — from one end of a pariah to the other ? The State of New York, with it four millions of aouls, can turn out more soldiers than all the colonies of England together ; and there are still thirty.four rich and populous ?tates 869 besides, to help in case of war. (Hear, hear.) No, we are not to imagine that a war at this time would be a war of 1812, and the people know it perfectly. weU. If a Confederation like this which is now pro posed is imposed upon the people without consulting them, and even against their wUl — if they are forced to bear a burthen much heavier than they now bear —and if the treaty of reciprocity is not continued — if a commercial crisis shoiild ensue, and if war should break out between England and the United States, you must not suppose that the people will fight aa they fought in 1812, when you have driven them to discontent, and rendered their poaition harder than it now ia. You may toll off the population into regiments, and they will not rebel, be cauae they are loyal and submissive, but their hearts will not be in the cauae, and they wiU aasuredly not fight with the aame spirit aa they would ahew if they were de fending a constitution and a state of thinga of their own chooaing. They will not fight with the aame courage as the southern rebels have shewn, for they were fighting to defend institutiona — bad ones it is true, but which they were attached to, and which they were deairous of preaerving. (Hear, hear.) In the event of a war with the United Statea, and being under a Confederation, the people would be called upon to defend a state of things which they dislike — a Constitution imposed upon them, to which they would not be attached — a Conatitution in which they would have no interest. The war might reault from a difficulty originating in China ! They would be compelled to fight againat a people whom they look upoB not aa enemiea, but as frienda, with whom they keep up daily relationa ; and, I repeat it, it would not be possible for them to fight as they did in the laat war. (Hear, hear.) But I return to the Recipro city treaty, and I aay that we shall feel ita great value once it haa been repealed. It is like a bridge over a river between two pariahea'; ao long aa the bridge stands, every one takea advantage of it without a thought of its utiUty, but let the bridge be carried away or deatroyed, and every one feela what an advantage it was, and the people realize the losa they have suffered, when they are once ' more compelled to reaort to the old syatem of flats and boats every time they require to cross tbe river, (Hear, hear.) And if the Reciprocity treaty be repealed, it wUl be due to the conduct of several mem bers of the Ministry, and to the papers that support them, and which they support in re turn ; it wUl be due to the conduct of Tory politicians and journalists in Canada, who, since the beginning of the war, have con stantly done everything in their power to irritate our neighbors and to embroil us with them, by displaying misplaced aym pathy. (Hear, hear.) For my jpart, Mr. Speaker, I know that the people of Canada do not aak for annexation to the United States, for they are in the enjoyment of peace aud contentment aa thinga now stand. The people do not desire any change ; but if you wish to establish a new order of thinga, if you deaire to create a new nation ality, I fancy we have the right to say what we consider auited to ua ; and if you desire to establish a new kingdom on thia continent, we aurely are entitled to examine what it ia to be, and the baaia upon which it is to be erected. I aay it would be a misfortune for us if we attempted to establish a system founded upon a political principle contrary to that of the United States — on the mon archical principle. If we must inaugurate a policy, let it not be a policy calculated to gi-Sfo umbrage, a policy of distrust and pro vocation. Let it rather be a policy of con ciliation and peace. Let it not be a policy of armies, of useless walls and fortifications — a policy of ruin and deaolation I What would be the uae of all these fortifications, all theae walla, if . they load ua with an unbearable burthen of taxation, reatrict our commerce, paralyae our induatry, shut ua up within our own narrow limits, with our vast products cut off from a profit able market ? (Hear, hear.) Do you fancy that the people would then care much whether the flag floating over them bore a cross or a stripe ? The people are satisfied to remain as they are ; they do not wish for anything better now ; but if you desire to change their political relations, they have the right to examine your scheme in all its phases. They have the right to ask them selves whether what you offer them is not a permanent state of war for themselves and their children. (Hear, hear.) The Consti tution of the United Statea is certainly far superior to that proposed to ua, and far better auited to our habits and the state of society amongst us. This scheme of Confederation, this scheme of an independent monarchy, can lead but to extravagance, ruin and anarchy ! You may decry as much as you choose the democratic system^ and laud the 870 monarchical syatem — the people will ever estimate them both at their proper value, and will ever know that whicb will suit them best. Aud when the farmers of Upper Canada are compelled to sell their wheat, after sending it to Montreal, ten cents a bushel lower than they now sell it at home, in consequence of the repeal of the Recipro city treaty, there will be a general demand throughout the whole of Upper Canada, as well .as of Lower Canada, for a change other than Confederation. And aa to thia point, here ia what waa said by a gentleman who, but a few montha ago, held a seat on the Ministerial benchea — I lefer to the, Hon; BIr. Buchanan. He said : — The continuation of the Reciprocity treaty -with the United States ia favorable, not only to the farmera of Canada, ard to all other clasaea through them, but alao to the English Govern ment ; for, without the existence of that treaty, the Canadiana are in a position to be greatly benefited, in an industrial and commercial sense, by the annexation of Canada to the United Statea, unlesa other induatrial or intercolonial arrange ments should take place. Annexation is far preferable, in an industrial point of view, to our " free trade in raw products," which 13 unaccompanied by protection for home industry. " Thoae who speak the truth to the people in times of criaea like the preaent, are really the most loyal men," adds Hon. Blr. Buchanan ; and he is right ; therefore, it is that I take it upon myself to speak thus frankly and to tell the truth to the people. (Hear, hear.) " But," it wiU be said, " annexation ia national auicide, and the people will never conaent to it ! Look at Louisiana, which haa loat itaelf in the American union !" The people of Lower Canada will reply, that Louiaiana contained but 30,000 whitea when it waa aold to the United Statea for $14,000,000, and that Lower Canada counts more than 1,000,000 of inhabitanta; that there is, therefore, no comparison between the poaition of Louisiana at that time and that we now occupy. Besides, those 30,000 whitea in Louiaiana were not all French • for thirty years previoua to 1800, Louisiana had belonged to the Spauiarda. No one can deny that. It waa in 1803 that it waa ceded by France to the United States, and yet its French population haa not beeu absorbed and haa not diaappeared. (Hear hear.) Siuce it was ceded to ' the United Statea, Louisiana haa always governed itaelf as it liked, and in ita own way. Itis true that the official use of the French langua-^e has been aboUahed in its Legialature, but why and by whom ? It waa abolished by the people of the oountry themselves, to mark their dissatisfaction at having been sold by France. But notwithstanding that fact, and the great influx of foreign popula tion, the original population have remained French, their laws are published in French, the judges speak French, pleading is carried on before the tribunals in French, numerous journals are publiahed in French ; in a word, the country haa remained aa thoroughly French as it waa under the domination of France. (Hear, hear.) To thoae who tell our people that annexation would annihUate them aa a people) aud destroy their nation ality and their religion, they will reply that there is no danger of their being transported like the inhabitants of Acadia, and that Lower Canada would be as independent as any of the other states of the union ; that they would, therefore, manage their own affairs, and protect their interests as they thought proper, without fear of intervention on the part of the General Government or of the other atatea ; for they would posaeaa, like all the other statea, full and entire sovereignty in all matters specially relating to their own interests. They would be obUged to submit to the Federal Government only as regarda matters of general interest, such as pcsfal matters, the tariff, foreign relationa, defence against enemiea, &e., &o. With regard to local matters, they would be perfectly sovereign in their own country, and they could make all the lawa they thought proper, provided such laws were not hoatile to the other atatea. Thua, as regafds the queation of divorce, they might legislate so that divorce could not be effected within their limita. At preaent aome of the states have divorce laws, whUe others have not; divorce is not permitted everywhere. (Hear, iiear.) In the sarae way as regards the militia ; the people will tell you that they might do like Vermont, which has formed part of the American union since its found ation, and which never adopted a militia law until January, 1864, because the political organization of the United States never rendered it necessary for the American peo ple to maintain armies in each state in time of peace, and each state ia perfectly free as regards the organization of its militia, pro vided it furnishes the number of aoldiera asaigned to ita population, in time of war. (Hear, hear.) They do not ruin themselves in time of peace to organize the militia. A 871 great obatacle to the political progreaa of our oountry ariaes from the vast number of per sons who arrive amongat ua each year from the British Ialanda ; they are here, bodily, it is true, but their minds wander over the sea between the two hemispheres, and they act as though they were in England, in Scot land, or in Ireland, without considering our poaition, our aocial and political relations; and they think they need only cry out " Loyalty, loyalty !" to make' the people ruah to arma ; but I repeat again, that if it be attempted to force the people into a change such aa is now propoaed, the people of the rural diatricta will become hoatile to thoae who force it upon them, an.d they will not fight in defence of such a Constitution, as they would fight in defence of a principle they approved of, and of a political poaition with which they were satisfied, (Hear, hear ) I have but one word more to say on thia aubject, and it is this : it ia all very well to aay that the debt of tbe United Statea ia enormous ; that will not frighten the people, for, notwithatanding the war between the North and the South, if we conaider the wealth and reaourcea of the United Statea, that debt will not be by any means so formi dable a matter to deal with as we have been told. In January last, the receipts of the United States Treasury amounted to $31,000,000 — one million a day; and notwith atanding that fact, despite the heavy taxea paid, and paid willingly, by the American people, commercial prosperity ia far greater in that country than it ia here, as those who now viait the country cannot fail to notice. On the firat of December last, the close of the fiscal year, the debt of the United States was $1,740,690,480. With a population of 32,000,000 this debt does not, therefore, excsed $56 per head. 1 have already shewn that under Confederation, our debt would be $40 per head in Canada. Com paring our resources with those of the American nnion, we were much more deeply indebted than they were at the period of the last annual report of the Treaaury. It is easier for them to collect two dollara than for us to collect one. But with their im mense reaourcea, their boundless commerce, their ever-increasing manufactures, if the war were to end tomorrow, the United States would pay off their debt in a few years, if the government continued to levy the same amount of taxes that they now do. A revenue of a million a day, $365,000,000 per annum, $3j650,000,000 in ten years !— double tho amount of the national debt at tbe beginning of the year, notwithatanding the terrible four yeara' war ! If tho Govern ment were to reduce the present impoata by one-half, the debt would bo paid off in ten yeara; whereaa in ten yeara from now our own debt, which is proportionably considerable, will have doubled itself, or, it may be, in creaaed in a much greater ratio, if we are to judge by preaent appearancea. (Hear, hear.) I repeat, I do not aak for the annexa tion of Canada to the United l tates, nor do the people desire it ; but I aaaert that changes such as thoae propoaed in our social and politioal condition, are the surest means of bringing it about, be cause they are of a nature to create aerious discontent, and a conatant conflict between ua and our neighbors; and the people, far from being satisfied with that, will be but ill-inclined to defend such a atate of things. I beg, in conclusion, to call the attention of hon. members to the fact, that while it is proposed to change our Constitution, the Government refuse to give us any details or explanations aa to the propoaed changea ; and I aaaert that it ia our duty not to vote for these changea blindly. With reference to what I have aaid, 1 have not aaid it with out well weighing the bearing of my worda ; I am ready to abide the conaequences that may follow. I am in a poaition to speak frankly, and I have done ^ ; for I am not here to represent my own personal interests, nor the interests of any individual. I have spoken the language of facts, I have spoken as the people would speak throughout all the rural districts on the south side of the St. Law rence, if they were frankly told how matters stand, and if the conaequencea ofthe violent changea aought to be effected in our political condition were explained to them. (Cheera.) Mr. DENIS — BIr. Speaker, for a few days past we have heard very extraordinary apeeches from tbe honorable members of the Opposition, occupying seats on the other side of the House. Those honorable gentlemen have taken the interests of the country in hand, and undertaken to set them right by such speeches as we have just heard froni-.the honorable raember for Drummond and Artha baaka (Mr. J. B. E. Dorion). . j Hon. Mr. HOLTON— Don't crush him. BIr. DENIS— I do not wish to crush any one ; but I must say conscientiously what I think of the extraordinary speech whicb he has just delivered. The honorable members of the Opposition have, since the commencement 872 of this debate, held one course— they have constantly appealed to the prejudices of a class who, for the protection of their interesta, uniformly depend on those who repreaent them here, and who, in order to make aure of their aUegiance and perpetuate it, work aecretly and in the dark to obtain the aignaturea of unauapecting partiea to petitions which they send roun4 tbe country, and uae afterwarda to ensnare the confidence of members of thia House. (Hear, hear.) Fortunately, they have hitherto had but little success in their undertakings, and have made but small pro gress in their attempta to injure ua. _ Theae gentlemen make a loud outcry againat the reaolutions introduced by the Government; but if they are aa bad aa they say they are, why do they not themselves prepare some remedy for the troubles and difficultiea of tbe country, inatead of limiting their exertiona to criea and reproachea ? But no. It ia alwaya the aame thing with tbem. " Great cry, and little wool." (Hear, hear.) The Oppoaition have always had but one object in view, and that was, not the good of tbe country, but the attainment of power. Thia haa been the aim of aU their actiona, and when they did ac tually, by an accident, acquire power, their conduct was far worse than that of which they accused their predecessors in office. Their intention is to frighten the people, as tbey did on the militia question, by enlisting prejudices of all kinds again«t the meaaure now under diacuaaion — trying every petty aubterfuge and shabby artifice to bring back tbe honorable member for Hochelaga (Hon. BIr. A. A. Dorion) to power. But it will not work — their little game will have no luck. To be sure, we cannot deny the honorable member for Drummond and Artbabaska, for his part, the credit of knowing how to work upon the people, or rather how to agitate them, while they, good souls, trust blindly to tbe integrity of tbe men who repreaent tbem here. It was in thia spirit of truth that he atated in hia stricturea on the Militia Bill introduced by the Cartier-BIacdonald Govemment that it waa a meaaure wbich would entail a tax of $20 a head on every habitant, and it ia in tbe aame spirit that he now tella them Confederation will entail one of $40 a head. One aaaertion ia aa true aa the other — neither of them is worth much. How can tbe honorable member venture on such assertions, since he knows nothing of the details of the measure — that ia, the meaaurea of detail which are to come after ? He can only talk on supposition, and his hypothesis is false and unfounded. He declares, for instance, that the intention ofthe Government, in moving for Confederation, is to introduce monarchy into Araerica, and to create princes, viceroys, and an ariatocracy, and make the Honorable Attorney General for Lower Can ada (Hon. Mr. Cartier) Governor of Lower Canada. Such ideaa could never enter any head but those of men who are incapable of self-government, and who are good for nothing but °to become demagoguea. In good truth, they mean nothing but to agitate— to make trouble and sow diacontent throughout the land, with relation to the great queation wbich has for months been the subject of discuaaion. For this end, they get up little petitiona, to be aigned in the conceasions, saying to the women,—" If you would not loae your huaband, aign. He ia aure to be drafted for the Confederation. Sign,^ if you would not have your chUdren deprived of their religion ! " (Hear, and laughter.) It ii by such means that they gain their little ad vantages. I have juat been informed that theae men, who have alwaya cried out that the clergy ougbt not to interfere iu poUtics, are doing all they can to enlist the clergy and sweU the cry against Confederation, by pro- chdming that the Church is in danger. _ But the clergy know them too well, und wUl let them ahout. When I hear theae hon. gentlemen of tho Oppoaition pretend that the clergy are on their aide, becauae two priests have written againat Confederation in the newapapera, I cannot help laughing. They are now, for aooth, the aavioura of religion and of the clergy, loving and reapecting them above all thinga. They spoke another knguage wben they insulted religion and the clergy in their journals; when they declared, in their Institut Canadien, that pri' sts ougVit to be forbidden to talk politics, and not to be allowed to vote at electiona. Let them recollect the famous parody on excommunication, published in tbe Pays, which never existed save in the narrow and diabolical mind which rnlea the Siicle. But now all tbis ia to be forgotten ; now they aay,— "Give up your leadera — the traitors who intend to aell the country, betray your reli gion, and drag your nationality through the inire — and come, follow ua !" You sraile, be cauae you know that all these proteatationa which you are making in favor of reUgion, of the clergy, and our nationality, are a fine piece of acting. The people know thia, and will not believe you ; they will remain true to their leaders and to those tried friends who have always served them well and faith- 873 fully. Those who are now in power have on their side the people and the ecclesiastical authorities, whom you would use as a stalking horse in your campaign against Confedera tion. All your efforts, aU your tricks, will not succeed in shaking the confidence of the people in their representatives. You talk of public meetings, of the people's opinion, pe titions, &c., but why did you not call these meetings when the members were at home in their counties, when tbey .might have met you face to face ? You waited, like cowards, tUl they had corne here to attend their duties in this House, and set hire ling agents to work to get up those meet ings, expecting an easy victory. We know perfectly well, for we have proofs, that agents well paid by a political committee at Montreal, were sent to all the parishes to get up meetings against Confederation, at whioh ^ey made use of the most contradic tory arguments, varied as occasion required, to suit their object, which was to induce the people to declare against the scbeme, and sign petitions accordingly. (Hear, hear.) These petitions bear the names of children, and, in faot, of sucklings, as was proved the other day by the honorable member for BoucherviUe. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) And if that much is certain, we are justified in thinking that those agents must have done something stUl worse, with which we are not acquainted, for the purpose of prejudicing the people against the Government scheme. Now, I say that in view of all this — in view of aU this underhand trickery and hypocrisy of the Opposition — all French-Canadians should unite together in support of a just, frank and straightforward measure, such as that now submitted to this House. Was it not stated, long before the meeting of Parlia ment, that the measure should receive a calm and fair consideration ? And yet since the beginning of the discussion we have had nothing but appeals to prejudice made by the adversaries of the measure, in place of dis cussing it on its merits, as they ought to have done. The honorable member for Richelieu (}lv. Perrault) has distinguished himself in the way of appeaUng to national and re ligious prejudices, and in order to attain his object he cited facts long past — drawn, in fact, from ancient history. We all know the facts he mentioned ; but why cite them as he did in such a body as this? It is neither politic nor right. Our duty as members of this House is to make laws for the well-being anf prosperity of tbe country and of all IU classes of the population, and not to excite the hatred and prejudices of one section of the community against another section. (Hear, hear.) Then, again, what was the gist of the speech just made by the honorable member for Drummond and Artbabaska (Mr. J. B. E. Dorion) — who certainly, I must admit, possesses oratorical ability, as well as other gifts ? It was just simply a compari son between our Goverment and that of the United States, ani of course he gave the preference to the latter. The honorable member is never weary of looking to Wash ington with one eye. (Hear, hear.) Why does not the honorable member tell us frank ly at once that he desires the annexation of Canada to the United States ? For, if we are to believe his statements, the American Government is an extraordinary government, a model government, a government unequalled in the world ! But no ; instead* of giving us the benefit of his real thoughts, he stops short at insinuations, and comparisons of tiie expenditure attending the two forms of gov emment, in order to leave an impression on the mintls of the people. (Hear, hear.) An other hon. member of this House, who is not in the habit of appealing to the religious or national pr^udices of the people — the hon. member fo^agot (Hon. Mr.LAERAMBOiSE) — has thought proper, this evening, to join in the outcry of the Opposition on this subject. He cited an event which has j ust occurred at Toronto, and whicii everybody regrets, and used it as an argument against the scheme of Confederation submitted to us by the Gov ernment. Why drag that faot into the dis cussion of a great question, and .at a solemn moment like this ? I do think that it was hardly becoming in an honorable ex-minister of the Crown to say to this House, — '_' Two sisters of charity have been insulted in the streets of Toronto; ergo, sisters of charity will not be tolerated under Confederation; the clergy will be persecuted, and religion an- nihUated." But this style of argument is re sorted to somewhat too tardily. These pro testations of devotedness to religion and to the clergy come too late to be believed by the people of Lower Canada, or to make any im pression on them. (Hear, hear.) The hon. member for Riohelieu also indulged in insin uations against the Honorable President of the CouncU (Hon. Mr. Brown), and stated that he was stUl as great a fanatic as ever against our religion and our clergy. Certain ly, the Honorable President of the Council was wrong m speaking as he formerly did. 874 when be was in the ranks of the Opposition ; but how muoh more culpable was it not in the Rouges to support him at that very time ? The members of the Opposition reproach us to-day with supporting the Lon. President of the Council, and blame us for things we have not done. We blamed the Hon. President of the Council for attacking our clergy and i-j- sulting what we respect most. We opposed him with all our strength, but at that very time the Opposition supported bim, and ap proved of everything he said. The people know that perfectly well ; they know and ap preciate thoroughly tbe difference between our motives and yours, in opposing the hon. member for South Oxford, and you cannot deceive them. The people will say to you, — " Give us a proof of what you can do ; and if you are better than those you attack, we will accept your leadership." What crime are we charged with to-day by the Opposition ? Af ter numberless fierce struggles, and two gen eral elections, it had become impossible for any party to govern the country. The people were weary of the whole thing, and wished for a change. It was then that a coalition took place between the two parties who formed the majority in either section ofthe province. The Opposition ahould not condemn that al liance ; on the contrary, they ou^ht to con tinue to give tbeir aupport to the honorable member for South Oxford (Hon. BIr. Brown), since he has formed an aUiauce with the Hon. Attomey General for Lower Canada, in order to find some means of carrying on the Gov ernraent, and of removing the difficultiea by which we are aurrounded. It haa been atated that tlie delegates to the Quebec Conference were not empowered to prepare a scheme auch aa that now before us: but can it be said that tbe Government had not the right to do so ? The Blinistry have prepared a scheme -which they now submit to ua, and the ques tion is not as to whether they were or were not empowered to prepare it, but whether the scherae is a good one, whether it ia deaerving of the approval of the people, and for the best intereata of the province. Thia it ia for ua to say, and it is aU we have to say ; but it is not right to accuae hon. Bliniatera, who have en deavored to discharge their duty and to re heve the country from ita difficu'ties — it ia not right to reproach them, after they have labored day and night at their task, and to tell them they had no right to do what tbey haye done. We had a right to expect a serious discussion of the Govemment scheme • but no, we have had nothing of the kind ; we have had nothing but personal attacks, ap peals to prejudice, and underhand attempts out of doors against the scheme. We have had a crop of suppositions and insinuations against this man and that man. It is " sup posed " that the Honorable Attorney General for Lower Canada desires to become a gover nor ; another is accused of desiring to be made a judge of a Federal court, and every hon. member of this House favorable to the Government scheme is accused of aiming at making money, obtaining a place or honors, by betraying and selling the cause of the people. This is certainly most unjust, and every one of these suppositions is utterly un warranted-. Those who indulge in them have not a shadow of proof to bring forward in support of their assertions, and they would, therefore, be much better employed in a calm and deliberate discu.asion of the meaaure it self. (Hear, hear.) Other hon. nftmbers, with a view of oppoaing the Government acheme and depreciating it in the opinion of the people, have made uae of the name of an honored citizen, now living in the retirement of private life. The honorable member for Bagot (Hon. Mr. Laframboise) told ua that Mr. C. S. Cherrier, of Montreal, was atrongly oppoaed to tbe acheme of Confedera tion, and that his opinion should have great weight, because he is a " devout " man. Now, I should like to know, BIr. Speaker, what connection there can possibly exist between religious devotion and a discussion such as this? I was really sorry to hear such lan guage fall from the honorable member for Bagot, for he is not in the habit of making use of arguments of that kind. It ia utterly aatounding to see the party who wanted to ahut up the priests in their veatriea, and deny them the right to hold any politioal opinions, uaing BIr. Cherrier's devotion aa a weapon wherewith to combat Confederation. (Hear, hear.) But what is the origin of the great agitation promoted by the hon. member for Hochelaga (Hon. Mr. Dorion), since the alliance of the Conservative party with the Hon. President of the Council ? Has he forgotten that he himself carried out im plicitly the behests of that hon. gentleman all the time they worked together ? And if not, how can he possibly make it a crime in others to work with him ? Was he not aware that his own Government— the Govemment of the hon. member for CornwaU (Hon. J. S. BIac donald)— existed only at his -ss ill; that the 875 Hon. President of the Council chastised that Government for its most trifling backslidings ; and that whenever he threatened, the Govern ment quickly mended its ways ? To-day you speak of the vast expenditure of the province ; but you formed part {if a Ministry which prom ised wonders to the country, and what did it do after aU? The facts are there; and surely it ill-becomes you to speak of extrav agant expenditure. Hon. gentlemen exclaim — "$40 per head!" They do not, it is true, tell us that the high price of molasses is due to Cartier and J. A. Macdonald — (laugh ter)— but they everywhere assert that these gentlemen want to ruin the people, increase the taxes, and plunge the country into an ocean of debt. And yet honorable gentlemen opposite have themselves been in power, and notwithstanding all their previous denuncia tions of taxation and extravagant expenditure, tbey were forced to admit the necessity of customs duties, and to work out responsible government ; they found it necesaary to retract all they had said in former speeches, when they themselves held the reins of power. But they did not remain in office long enough to get rid of the old leaven completely, and now that they are out of power once more, we find them taking up their former cries. We have thehonorable members for Chateau guay and Hochelaga, who once had a Con federation scheme of their own, opposing the scheme of the Government, simply because it did not originate with themselves, and op posing the adoption of any measure for the defence of the country. These honorable gentlemen stated, through their organ Le Pays, that if England desires to retain Canada, she should pay for its defences. This is not said so openly now, but the great wealth of the United States, the immense number of their guns, ships of war and armies, are used as arguments to shew the uselessness of any attempt on our part to defend ourselves in case of attack, and also to lead the people to the concluaion tbat it ia better for the country not to expend anything for defence. When the Cartier-Macdonald Govemment was defeated on a question of loyalty towards the Imperial Government, the whole Opposition voted against the principle of organizing the militia for our defence. The leaders of the Opposition then voted unflinchingly against a Militia law ; but three or four days after, when they had succeeded in taking the place of those whom they had defeated, tbey them selves voted, without scruple or hesitation, $600,000 for the organization of the militia. They appointed instructors throughout the whole country, for they had leamed that as British subjects they had duties towards the Imperial Government. To-day they are acting as they then acted, and they desire once more to play a double game. They do not want Confederation, but they admit that there is need of a remedy for our sectional difficulties, of the existence of which there can be no question. Yet they refuse to say what remedy they propose for our difficulties. They keep it all to themselvea, shut up in their own minds, as they did with the cele brated budget of the honorable member for Chateauguay, which was to be the cure for all our flnancial difficulties, but which never saw the light. Eighteen months of incubation did not suffice to bring forth the bantling. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) If tbe Govern- ment^hould not succeed in inducing all the provinces to accept the scheme, they, at all events, will have kept their wwd and kept the faith whiehis due to a treaty solemnly con tracted between the Provinces of British North America. The hon. member for Chateau guay (Hon. Mr. Holton) has told us that he had received a telegraphic despatch, by which he had positive information that the people of the Lower Provinces had rejected Confeder ation, aud that tbey had pronounced agaiust it in New Brunswick. But what does aU that amount to ? Ought we on that account also to reject the scheme ofthe Government? Are we not bound to this scheme by the word of our Ministers? No, we hold to this great soheme of Confederation, and we want no little schemes such as are proposed by tbe honorable gentlemen on the other side of the House — schemes by which they would appoint little judges and divide Canada into little dis tricts. The Opposition, it is true, ha-ye created a certain amount of distrust in this scheme among tbe people, by harping on direct taxation, and declaring that Canada will be obliged to tax herself in order to pur chase and defend the territory of the Lower Provinces. They hope by these means to gain the confldence of the people, and to retum to power ; but even if they succeeded, they would be obliged to do later what they have already done, what they now con demn, and what the men now in power aro desirous of doing in the interest of the people ; they would be obliged to organize the defences of the country, as the Government propose to do, and as the Imperial Government desire. At the present moment we have to choose one of two alternatives— either we must annex 876 ourselves to the United States, or we must respect the wishes of England and accept Confederation with the Blaritime Provinces. If we do not desire either Confederation or annexation, we must remain as we are and continue to struggle with Upper Canada; and in the meantime the people will remain behind their plough, business will be at a stand-stiU, and the debt will be increased by mUlions. (Hear, hear.) For several days past, Mr. Speaker, we have listened to pompous speeches made by honorable members of the Opposition, appealing iucessantly to the reli gious and national prejudices of the popula tion of Lower Canada, with the view of de feating the Government scheme. These hon orable gentlemen draw pictures which are really heartrending. They tell the Protes tants that under Confederation they will lose all their rights in Lower Canada in reapect of the education of their children; and, on the other baud, they teU the Catholics that their religion is in danger, because the Fed eral Govemment will have the right of veto in respect of all the measures of the Local Govemment. But this right of veto must of necessity exist somewhere, in order that the minority may be protected from any injustice which the majority might attempt to do them. We cannot hope to have tbe majority in the Federal Parliament, when we French Lower Canadians and Catholics have never had it under the existing union. And yet we cannot but congratulate ourselves upon the relations which have always existed between us and our fellow-countrymen of other origins and re ligions. The Benning Divorce BiU affords a proof that we are in a minority in the present Legislature, fer the Protestants all voted in favor of that measure, and the Catholics against it, and the bUl was passed. The Catholics, then, are wrong when they exclaim that we ought to unite and carry out our own religious views and secure the triumph of French-Canadian nationality; doing so will only have the effect of exciting the Protestants and the British-Canadians to do the same thing, and then we should fall into a state of anarchy. One night last week, about midnight, an honorable member of this House an ex-Minister, the honorable member for Cgrnwall (Honorable J. S. Macdonald) forgot his poaition ao far aa to seek to excite religioua jealouaiea and hatreds ; but I am happy to see that he haa not aucceeded in his attempt, and that Catholica and Protestants have treated his fanatical appeals with con tempt, and have made no response. After having heard this, can any one beUeve in the reality of all these anticipations of danger paraded in the newspapers, in the House, and throughout the country ? No, it is impossi ble to believe in it, and not to perceive that it is all hypocrisy, with the view of exciting the prejudices of the people. (Hear, hear.) It has been also said that the use of our language was in danger, and that the French laws would disappear when Confederation was accomplished. But is it not a weU-known fact that we owe the protection of our French laws to the Hon. Attorney General for Lower Canada (Hon. Mr. Cartier), and is not the Code Civil, which he has just laid before us, a sufficient answer to all that can be asserted on this head ? The French laws wiU be maintained and respected in Lower Canada, and this we owe to the Hon. Attorney Gene ral (Hon. Mr. Cartier). We shall have a statute to aaaimilate the law of evidence is commercial matters in Lower Canada; but the French laws -will not be aboUshed. If there is a man in the whole country who pos sesaes real legal judgment, and who is per fectly acquainted with the laws and statutes of Lower Canada, it is certainly the Hon. Attorney General for Lower Canada, Mr. George Etienne Cartier. No one wiU deny this, and there ia not a man who can compete with him in this respect. "Why come here and teU us that our language is about to disappear, and that its use is to be abolished in the Federal Legislature ? Is it because lies must be told in order to oppose the scheme of the Government, and real rea sons for opposition cannot be found ? A dro-wning man catches at a straw, and that is what the Opposition are doing to-day. But they ought to be just, and to admit that we shall have our code, which wiU guarantee to us the maintenance of our laws in Lower Canada, just as the Imperial Aet wiU guar antee to us the use of our language. Why, too, should personal recrimination be indulged in in this discussion? " Cartier," they say, " does this because he wants to be Gov ernor." BIr. geoffrion— Hear, hear. Mr. DENIS— The honorable member for Vercheres, who cries "Hear, hear," is a man of too much talent and good sense to approve of such language, and especially to make use of such arguments. He ought to leave that to the honorable member for Richelieu (BIr. Perrault), who openly tells us in this House that the majority is venal and servile. Such language as this ought not to be made 877 use of here, out of respect for ourselves and for the French-Canadians in this House. It is a great mistake on the part of a beardless youth, with no more experience than the hon orable member for Richelieu, particularly when he is addressing men of the ex perience and capacity of the Honorable At torney General for Lower Canada. All parties agree iu saying that the Hon. Attorney General East is capable, honest, and of tlie highest integrity ; but all do not approve of his policy, and that is perfectly legitimate. But that is no reason for attacking his private character, and putting in his mouth opinions which he has never uttered. They say he is honest and upright, and yet we read in the newspapers that he is wUling to sell his coun try, his religion and his nationality for a title or an appointment as Governor. This is very unfair. (Hear, hear.) The members of the Opposition demand an appeal to the people upou the question of Confederation. But if it were granted, you would see, Mr. Speaker, to what lengths they would go. These demands for an appeal to the people are only made with the view of serving the purposes of a clique, who would say to those who desired to discuss frankly the question before the country — " Hold your tongues and vote against the Government !" This is what they have already attempted to do by means of meetings which they have caused to be held in different counties ; but I must say that in mine they did not succeed in their designs. They sent three agents there, uuder different pretexts, who tried by every possible means to induce the people to pronounce against the Ministerial scheme ; but they did not succeed; and yet I am the humblest member of this honorable House. But as I happened just at that time to be attending to the duties of my profession at the court of the district of Beauharnois, I observed that these agents had been sent by the Montreal com mittee, and I was enabled to defeat their little plans and their little games. They tried to make little speeches, and hold little meetings, but as I was on the spot they gained nothing ty it. But aU this serves to indicate tJie means that have been employed by the par tisans of the Opposition to excite the people against the measure of Confederation. I do not want to be too hard upon them, because they naturally were desirous of obtaining a triumph for their party, and they employed these means as they might have employed others,, although they do not care a rush for the holy cause of nationality or religion. (Hear, hear.) I remember very well what used to be said and what used to be done in the Institut Canadien of Montreal, and I observe with satisfaction that the present con duct of the honorable members of the other side of the House who belonged to that Insti tut is a direct protest against what they did in the Institut, in which we have had Swisses coming and preaching religious toleration. Then it used to be said — " We must advance with the times," and they used to read the Pucelle. (Hear, hear.) Now, the Govern ment does not propose to establish the annual parUaments, that the hon. member for Hoche laga used to cry out for, but they are engaged in settling the difficulties of the country. They call upon every man of talent to aid them in this task, or to invent a better" remedy for these difficulties, and to submit it to the country. But if* those who oppose the Government measure are contented with mere .opposition, without proposing any better measure in its stead, what will the people say to them if they present themselves to their constituents, to ask them to pronounce between them and the Government ? They wUl aay — " What have you done ; what have you to offer to compare with what the Blinisters have done and offered to us ?" They will ask them for their measure, but tbey will keep it hidden away with that famous budget of the honorable member for Chateauguay, which has not yet been hatched after eighteen months' incuba tion. (Hear, hear.) We know perfectly well that the Government measure is not per fect, and that it has defects, as all plans made by men must have. For my part I admit it most willingly ; but it must be remembered that it is a compromise, and this the gentle men of the Opposition take good care not to allow for or to state. In public they say that the French-Canadians are going to be over whelmed by the English element in the Con federation, and tbat they wiU lose their lan guage. But do they not know that in Upper Canada the French language has been pre served as pure and unalloyed as in Lower Canada, wherever there is the smallest nucleus of French inhabitants ? The members on the other side propose giving us leaaons in the art of preserving our language and our nation ality — they, annexationists at heart and in their actions, who are always looking to Wash ington. I do not say that it ia a crime to be an annexationist, but at least let them frankly admit what they are. Thua the honorable member for Chateauguay (Hon. Mr. Holton) is more of a Yankee than any one. He told us 878 to-day he did not like great undertakings, but it seems to me that certain great under takings in which he has had a hand, have not had the effect of emptying his purse. (Hear, hear.) Why should the country be prevented from advancing in the way of progress ; why prevent the construction of means of com munication, which will have the effect of keeping our French-Canadians in the country ? You seem to forget your words and deeds of yesterday. When he occupied a seat on the Treasury benches, the honorable member for Chateauguay was constantly rising to tell us that we were a factious Oppoaition, a dreadful Opposition, because we did not aUow the Government to do just what they liked. But he does not think his own opposition to day factious, he who has riaen fifty-five times in the course of this debate, and who cjata up every queation like freah butter. He aays to day that the Government wishes to choke off discussion and to prevent the members of the Opposition from speaking, and yet he has .spo ken fifty-five tiraes I The hon. member for Lot biniere (BIr.JoLT) told us, the other day, that the people are iu a condition of torpor, and that they must be awakened. If they are in a condition of torpor anywhere, they are cer tainly not ao in Lower Canada ; but if they were, they would undoubtedly be awakened by all the fine speeches delivered by honor able membera on the other aide of the House, and on obaerving the great reaiatance which they offer to divorce and their fervent energy in maintaining family tiea unbroken. Thoae gentlemen loudly proclaim to ua that we ought not to vote for divorce ; but it ia quite unne ceaaary for them to tell ua ao — all Catholica are perfectly well aware that it is their duty to vote againat divorce. We know tbat tbe lawa of Parliament cannot prevail over thoae of the Church. And we are not voting for divorce in voting for the acheme of Confeder ation ; and the declamationa of hon. members on the other aide of the Houae, on this sub ject, cannot carry conviction into tbe minds ofanyone._ Nobody asks us to enact a law to allow civil magistrates to celebrate mar riages, and aU that is said by the Opposition in relation to this question only amounts to a tempest in a tea-pot. At any rate we may congratulate ourselves upon the conversion of hon. members, and now they need ouly tell the truth for the future, and their paat sina will be forgiven them. However, although they constitute themaelves the protectora of our religion and nationality, it is evident that the people do not yet very firmly believe in their conversion, and that they have not yet attained the confidence of the country ; for otherwise the plan of the Government is sufficiently new and sufficiently little under stood to allow of their having a chance of retuming to power. (Hear.) The people, in view of all their fine declarations, wUl probably think that they are going to ally themselves with our friends ; but if they do not do so, it will then be perceived that they are not sincere, and then so much the worse for them. In the meantime the people wiU consider the scheme which is submitted to us, and will judge it upon its merits, without allowing themselves to be led away by appeals to prejudices and insinuations made by honorable members on the other side of the House. I shall, at a later period, speak upon the question itself, but I will not follow the example of the honorable member for Riche lieu, wbo gave us a long speech with the help of Garneau's ^'isfory of Canada, which he read out noarly from one end to the other. Nor will I utter threats either, and no one of us will say, " If matters do not go on in this way, or in that, you will see." In a country like ours, we do not say "you wiU see !" To do so is to try to create useless excitement among the people, and all honest ¦len sbould reprove such conduct. Besides, who is the man who has influence enough to raise the people at the present moment? Certainly not our worthy feUow-citizen, BIr. Cherrier, for he is too peaceable, too devout, and too good a Catholic to tell tbe Cana dian people to rise and fight against the scheme of the Government by force of arms. No, h3 will rather tell them to reapect authority, and claim their rights if they conaider themaelves injured, because he is aware that it ia better to reapect one'a father than to fight againat him. As to Hoc. Mr. Papineau, that distinguished man has undergone mortification enough in his public life, and feela enough regret for hia friends and fellow-countrymen who perished at St. Denia and elaewhere, to prevent hia wiahing to recommence playing that game. The ho»orable member for Bagot reproached the Hon. Attorney General for Lower Canada with having been preaent at St. Denia, and with having returned from thence. 'Would he have preferred to have seen him lying amid the dead and mingling his ashes with thoae of the victims who perished there ? Hon. BIr. LAFRAMBOISE— Oh ! there waa no danger. Mr. DENIS — You reproach him with 879 having done this when he was young, and yet you say that you would do the same if you were powerful enough to undertake it. That is no argument, and that is not what we ought to do. We ought to say to England that it is our wish to reihain under the shadow of her noble flag; that we stand in fear of our neigh bors, and are desirous of knowing what she can do to help us. It is in this way that our Ministers should approach the Imperial Gov ernment, and if the negotiations do not ter minate in a satisfactory manner, then it will be time to separate and to seek another state of existence. The debate has taken too personal a turn, and we have listened to ac cusations and insinuations against thia per son and that person ; but as the Opposition has nothing better to suggest to us than what is proposed to us by the present Govern ment, they cannot hope that members on this side of the House will support them with the sole object of defeating the Admin istration. Gentlemen on the Opposition benches call for the details, but their lead ers may be called upon to say what they suggest to bring the country forth from the difficulties in which it is plunged. What they desire is the status quo. But let them propose something practical to ut ; let them say what they want and what they can do. Instead of this we hear from them nothing but recriminations and perpetual fault find ing. They ask why the Government does dfbt now state, how the local governments are to be organisecf ; but the reply to this question made by the Hon. Attorney General for Lower Canada, was very just, when he told them that the Government wished firat to know whether we were favorable to Confeder ation, and tbat then they would bring forward the detaila. Thia ia perfectly fair, and we muat not mix up the carda. (Hear, hear.) 1 do not wish to speak at greater length at present; but I muat allude, however, to the continual aaaertion of ths honorable member for Hochelaga (Hon. BIr. Do rion) with reapect to the enormoua na tional debt which Confederation will entail. Why does he not take account of the reasons -vvhioh induce the Lower Provinces to refuae Confederation ? Ia it becauae thoae rea.sons are fatal to his argumenta ? la fact the JjOwer Provinces declare that our Blinisters wished to obtain too much for Canada, that the burthens to be laid upon them are too heavy, and that an alliance with us would ruin them : whilst honorable members on the other side of the House declare that they will none of this alliance, because we grant too much to the Lower Provinces. 'Those provinces say that Confederation will not be advantageous to them, because they will be compelled to pay for the canals, the railways anil other improvements iu Canada, and because they would derive no advantage from an alliance with us. Besides, those provinces are now in the hands of agents of the United States, whose great object is to prevent the success of Confgderaiion, be cause it would be fatal to their trade with the provinces. That is why they labored, and labored successfully, to prevent the election of the partisans of Confederation in New Brunswick, just as they would do all in their power to prevent our elec tions here, if an appeal to the people shouli be had on the question, for they would work in the interest of the United Statea. (Oppoaition laughter.) I sec tho honorable member for Drummond and Ar tbabaska laughing — BIr. j. B. E. DORION— I am laughing at the silly stuff you have been talking to us for the last hour. BIr. DENIS — If there is a man in thia House who has talked silly stuff and holds narrow ideas, that man is undoubtedly the hooorable member for Drummond and Ar tbabaska — he who bas never done anything but stir up and foment the prejudices of race — he wbo writes little letters to get pe titions against Confederation signed in his county by all the women and children in it. Although I have not, like the honorable member, at my command a little newspaper like the Defricheur, which never cleared (defricM) anything except when the hon orable member for Hochelaga was At torney General for Lower Canada, and then the honorable member knew very well how to make clearings among Governmeut jobs and advertisements — I am quite able to reply to the honorable member. It is truly laughable to hear a man like him talk of the "silly stuff" of others, when we think of his newspaper articles in which he said : — " Pay 1 wretched people — molasses and tea are dear" — and what he said about the Seigniorial bill and the Municipal bill — two measures which hjive called forth the adrairation of the whole world — and about the Reciprocity treaty, which was, by his shewing, to do all sorts of harm to the country, but which has done all sorts of 880 good. Ah ! it is the same school all over. The instant a man holds a different opinion from those gentlemen, he is good for nothing, and all that he says is silly stuff. Truly, these are the foolish virgins who have no oil in their lamps. iMr. j. B. E. dorion— You are charm ing! Mr. DENIS — The honorable member told us, a short time since, that we were passing from extravagance to folly ; with one stroke of th« pen he sweeps away all the apices of the country, and declares that they are merely heaps of foola and simpletons ; but I forgive him, for I believe that he is not compos mentis. As to those who set themselves up here as the defenders of reli gion, we -shaU, before believing them, wait for an expresaion of opinion on the part of those to whom is intruated the difty of speaking on the subject ; and as to the pro tection of our nationality, we shall hearken to the men to whom the people have delega ted the duty of watching over and protect ing it, and we shall not follow the leading of men like those who are opposed to the plan of Confederation. (iVlinisterial cheers, and ironical Oppoaition laughter.) Mr. pouliot said — BIr. Speaker, it was my intention, before recording my vote on the resolutions which are now before the House, to make some remarka reapecting them at much greater length than I ahall now do ; for now we find that this new being, which was to be brought forth in order to save the country, has already per- iahed while atill in embryo, from the violent blow which it haa received in New Bruns wick ; and if we still turn our attention to it, our doing so is certainly only in order to relieve the womb of its mother, whom it greatly inconveniences, and who would ul timately have been destroyed by it. There is, therefore, nothing left for us to do, Mr. Speaker, but to join in the libera and to chant requiescat in pace — (laughter) — and that, I think, tho whole of Lower Canada will sing with a great deal of pleasure, giving, at the same time, thanks to that Providence which, we love to think, watches with special care over our beloved Canada, for having preserved ua from being plunged into the abyas, on -the verge of whioh -^e were standing, and to charge the honorable gentlemen who sit on the other side of tbis House to go to England and deliver its funeral oration. (Hear, hear.) Yet, though such is the case, Mr. Speaker, the excep tional position in which tho county which I have the honor to represent here, and the position which an effort bas been made to describe me as occupying in this House, by the assertion that I do not represent the opinions of my constituents in relation to this great question, compel me, before vot ing, to hold up to view the special situation of my county and to show that in voting as I propose to do, I shall be doing no more than carrying out and executing tho wishes of the electors whom I represent. I should wiah that several of the members who are going to vote on the oppoaite side may be able to shew as good grounds in support of their votes. (Hear, hear.) It is true that a meeting, called by myself in my double capacity as warden of the county and mem ber representing it, was held in my county, and that at that meeting there was some disturbance which prevented an expres sion of opinion in relation to Confederation ; but, BIr. Speaker, ic is well to know that that meeting was held only two days before the balloting for the militia, and that in con sequence great agitation had been got up among the young men, who are not even electors, in order to divert the attention of the meeting from the subject, to discuss which it had been called together ; and it is acknowledged, BIr. Speaker, that it is alj^aya eaay to find a certain number of people, in any county whatever, who will be ever ready to create a disturfkance if only they are provided with what is needful, and such is what took place on the occasion in question. Since then, however, several of the principal parishes have pronounced upon Confederation, as will Be seen by the following resolutions, whicii I shall take the liberty of reading to the llouae : — At a apecial meeting of the municipal council ot the parish of St. Arsene, in the county of Temiscouata, duly called by special and public notice, aud held in the aaid parish of St. Arsene, in the public hall, on Monday, the thirteenth day of the month of Fehruary, in the year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and sixty-five, in conformity with the proviaiona of the Munici pal Act of Lower Canada of 1860, and at which meeting were preaent : J. Piiime Roy, Baquire, Mayor, and Measieura FEANcoia DoBfi, J. Bte. Pelletier, Hector Roy, Germaix Terkiault, JoaEPH Roy and Clovis BbrubI:, members of the said Council and constituting a quorum ; the said J. Prime Roy, Esquire, presiding as Mayor; and at which meeting waa alao present a large number of the principal inhabitants aud electors of the said pariah. Councillor PaANCOia DubIi moved, seconded by Councillor Hector Rot : — 881 That it be reaolved that thia Council being of opinion that the scheme of Confederation of the Britiah North American Provincea now before the Legialature, would be diaadvantageoua to Lower Cauada, conaidera it their duty to requeat J. Bte. Pouliot, Eaquire, member for the county, to do all in hia power to prevent the adoption of the acheme in question, or at least to obtain the postponement of that adoption until after an ap peal to the people shall have been had, in auch way aa the Legialature ahall think moat expe dient. — Unanimously adopted. Mr. Ciovia Eot moved, seconded by Mr. Jos. Bot:— That a copy of the foregoing reaolution be at once tranamitted to the aaid J. Bte. Pouliot, Esquire. — Unanimoualy adopted, (Signed) J. Prime Rov, Mayor. " Elib Mailloux, S. T. I have also other resolutions, identical in character, adopted in several other parishes in the county, but I shall abstain from read ing them. (Hear, hear.) Now, Mr. Speak er, in order to explain clearly to honorable members the peculiar position in which the county whioh I have the honor to repre sent is placed, I have to inform them that whatever line is adopted for the Intercolonial Railway, if it should be built — and I hope that it will be built without Confederation — it must, in any case, pass through the whole of the county — an extent of more than fifty miles — and subsequently be carried through a great extent of virgin forest, to which the inhabitants of my county are the moat nearly situated. The advantajres reaped by the localities, BIr. Speaker, in which worka of such magnitude are being carried out, both as regards their construction and their subse quent maintenance, and the other advantagea accruing to settlements from the building of a railway, arc well known. All this haa been perfectly well understood by the in habitants of my county ; that is to say, tbat iu respect of material interests,Confederation might be beneficial to ua — an opinion which I also hold myself; but they have also, how ever, understood that as it is with individ uals, so it is with nations — that the richest are not always the happiest. And believ ing that the French-Canadian nationality would be endangered if Confederation should be carried out, they did not hesitate for an instant to pronounce against the scheme, and charged me, as their representative, to oppose it here in their name ; so that in acting as I am doing, Mr. Speaker, I am merely carrying out their wishes. (Hear, 112 hear.) I must say, Mr. Speaker, that I greatly regret that several of the gentlemen with whom I have worked and with whom I still work, should have so strongly based their objectiona to Confederation onthe con struction of the Intercolonial Railway. To listen to those gentlemeu, one would really believe that Canada ends here at Quebec, or that the part which is situated below is not worth occupation. I invite those gentlemen to examine with a little moVe attention the map of the province as far as. its lower ex tremity — the Bay of Chaleurs and Gaap6, and they will perceive that it containa a tolerably vaat territory and good land adapt ed for colonization — a fact of which they may alao convince themselvea by glancing at the colonization reports. They will per ceive, I say, that if the Intercolonial Rail way were made by the line caUed Major Robinson's line, but not by New Brunswick, as recommended by the resolutions submit ted to us, we ahould, before many years had elapsed, see an immense population settled on that territory, which ia capable of con taining more than 100,000 souls; and sev eral of the gentlemen who oppoae the con struction of that road, and who reaide in countiea in which there ia no room for the surplus population, might induce that sur plus population to go and settle on the ter ritory in queation, and would have no rea son to regret having done ao. (Hear, hear.) And, BIr. Speaker, beaides the advantages which that road would bring to the trade of Canada in general, it would, if made to com municate with the Gulf of St. Lawrence by way of Ristigouche, have the immediate effect of imparting an impulse to the working of our fiaheries, whioh are capable of giving em ployment to several thouaand more peraons than are now engaged in them. The effect of this'would be to keep our young raen at home, and even to bring them back from the United States, where many of them now are. I, therefore, invite the gentlemen who are opposed to the railway in question to join with us in hurrying the construction of it, for it will be one of the best means of restoring equality of population between the two provinces, and of stifling the cry which is so deafening to us Lower Canadians — the cry for representation by population. I willingly admit, Mr. Speaker, that public opinion below Quebec appeared at flrst to be favorable to Confederation, or at least that there was a disposition to submit to it, be- SB'S cause the public had been made to believe that government was no longer possible, and that Confederation waa the only means of settling our difficulties ; but I believe that that opinion has greatly changed since the Ministerial explanationa have been made public ; for every one expected, and it was everywhere asserted, that amendments would be made, and that we should be informed as to the nature of the local governments, and as to the debt of Lower Canada. (Hear, hear.) With these few remarks, Mr. Speaker, I shall conclude by saying that I shall vote against the resolutions in order to carry out and to comply with the wishes of my constituents. (Cheers.) Mr. j. j. ROSS — I propose, Mr. Speak er, that the speech of the honorable mem ber should be printed in pamphlet form, apart from the official debates, and that seve ral thousand copies should be atruck off to be distributed freely throughout the country. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) Mr. biggar — As the resolutions on the Confederation of the Provinces are looked to with a very great deal of interest by the country, I think it neceaaary to make a few remarka iu explanation of the vote which I intend to give. But before doing ao, I think it neceaaary for me to atate, aa briefly as posaible, the poaition that I hold toward tbe preaent Government, aa alao the two govem menta that have preceded them. In my canvaaa in 1861, I moat distinctly and unhesitatingly stated to my constituents that I had no confldence in the Cartier-BIac donald Government, who were then in power, as I considered that they had managed the finances of the country very badly, and had, by their extravagance, brought us to the eve of bankruptcy ; and that if I were elected to the House as their representative, I should feel it my duty to vote want of confidence in that Government, if such a vote was proposed. In 1862 the Militia BUl was introduced by that Adminis tration. Believing that some legislation was necessary in that direction, and admitting the principle of the bill, I voted with the Government on it. Some of my poUtical friends, with whom I was then acting, found fault with me for the course I then took and the vote I then gave ; but I am happy to aay that they have aince been induced to take the same view of the matter that I did at that time, and they would now be willing to go a Uttle farther in the same direction than I would perhaps feel it prudent to go with our great public debt. It is gratifying to me, however, to find that the course I took on that occasion has been approved of now by them. That Government was defeated on that vote ; and when the new Government was formed, known as the Macdonald- Siootte Administration, I was not satisfied with their policy. I had promised my con stituents that I would support representation by population, and vote against separate schools ; and as that Govemment proposed to make representation by population a close question, and to bring in a Separate School Bill, I felt that I should have to vote against them when representation by population would be moved as an amendment to the Address. I accordingly voted for the amend ment; and when BIr. Scott's Separate School Bill was introduced, I felt it my duty to vote against it, in accordance with fhe pledges I had made to my constituents. That Government waa defeated, and a new Gov- ernm3nt was formed, in which I advised you, Blr. Speaker, and my friend the late Hon. Postmaster General, to take office. I stated to you, Mr. Speaker, and to the Hon. Mr. Mowat, that I would not advise you, as my friends, to take office, unless I would feel it to be my duty to support you ; and that if the question of representation by population was again moved as an amendment to the Speech from the Throne, I would vote against the amendment, and that I would go before my constituents, as a general election waa approaching, and state what I had done, and if they did not sustain me in what I had done, I was quite willing to remain at home. I believe that Government did right in resigning when they found they could not carry on the business of the country in a satisfactory manner ; and when the Taoh:6-BIacdonald Administration was formed, I decided to give them a test-vote, but I was willing that they should proceed without any opposition from me, if they could control a maj ority of the House; butwhen the reconstruction took place, I felt that I could not be a party to a government of that kind — that the demoralizing influence of a co alition such as that Government contained would counteract all the good they could ever do, and that the alliance was an un happy one. (Hear, hear.) I was not wil ling, after having voted a want of confidence in them on the 14th of June last, for having misappropriated one hundred thousand dol lars of the funds of the province, to come down to the House eight days after and say 883 that I would support them, now that they had promised'' to give the Hon. George Brown, on behalf of himself and two other members of the Liberal party, the selection of three seats in the Cabinet, when they had done no act to merit my confidence, but simply state that they would grant constitu tional changes, whicii they might or might never do. I was not prepared, however, to give them any factious opposition, but was -wiUing to support any good measures that they might bring forward. That Gov ernment met delegates from the Maritime Provinces, at a Conference in this city, and agreed upon the resolutions that are now submitted to this House. In them I find principles which do not harmonize with my pledges to the people, and without an appeal to the people I cannot support the measure now before the Houae. (Hear, hear.) I will not here say anything of the merits of the resolutions, but simply state that they embrace principles which I cannot support on account of the promises that I have made to my constituents. The people of my county have been led by the Globe to believe that the Intercolonial Railway would be a very dangerous affair for the country, and that it would not be useful either as a military or commercial undertaking. Looking at it from a military point of view, it is well known that part of the proposed line would run within twenty-six miles of the American frontier, and that communication could be cut off at any moment by an American army ; and that as a commercial undertaking it could never compete with the water route during the season of navigation ; and in the winter it would be comparatively uselesa on account of the depth of snow. They have been told that it would never pay for the grease that would go on the axles. (Hear, hear.) When I went before them and stated that I would aupport the Macdonald- Dorion jrovernment, they said that Govern ment should be looked upon with suspicion, aa they had granted ten thousand dollars for the survey ofthe Intercolonial Railway; but I told them that the best guarantee that they could have that that work would not be pro ceeded with, was that the Hon. Mr. DoRiON was in the Cabinet, and that he had previ ously resigned his seat as Provincial Secre tary in the Macdonald-Sicotte Adminis tration, rather than agree to the construction of that raUway. Another question that I found a little embarrassing was that of separate schools. The present Hon. Solicitor General for Canada West came into my riding and veryingeniously told the people that I was re sponaible for the Separate School Bill having been forced upon them, inaamuch aa I had supported the general policy of the Govern ment that had carried the bill, although I had voted with the hon. gentleman against the bill in all its stages from the beginning to the end. They were satisfied, however, when I told them that I was prepared to vote to rescind the amendments to the Sepa rate School BUl as introducedby Mr. Scott. Now, as these resolutions propose to perpe tuate separate schools in Upper Canada for all time to come, I feel that they would con flict with the pledges that I have made to the people, and that I cannot support them. (Hear, hear.) I was a little surprised to find the Honorable President of the Council get up and say that he did not fear any of the evil results that might proceed from the present Separate School Bill. Was that the language of the hon. gentleman in 1862 ? Was that the way the subj ect had been treated in the columns of the Globe when the bill was being discussed in 1862 and 1863 ? Every member of this House will remember how the thirteeen members, even spoken of in the Globe in 1862, for having had the courage to vote against the second reading of Mr. Scott's Separate School Bill — when 95 members of the House were wUling to vote for the second reading — and in 1863 when the bill waa being passed into law by the Macdonald-Sicotte Government — how the members were warned to be true to their pledges, no matter what might become of the Govemment. Even Dr. Ryerson, the Superintendent of Education for Upper Canada, who had devoted twenty years of the best of his Ufe in perfecting a system of education, was denounced in the columns of the Globe as a deserter of the best inter ests of education in Upper Canada, for having consented to the amendments as pro posed in BIr. Scott's Separate School Bill. I cannot help referring to another remark made by the Hon. President of the CouncU. He said — " Let any one vote against these reso lutions and dare to go before the people." Is he not prepared to allow others the same f reedo m of though t which he enj oys himself ? (Hear, hear.) I can only say that I for one will not be coerced into anything ofthat kind. (Hear, hear.) 1 am not responsible to the Hon. President ofthe Council for my votes. I am responsible to the people that sent me here, and to a higher power, and J 884 am not going to be coerced into giving a vote whioh I cannot approve, (Hear, hear.) I cannot say whether I will ever be called upon again to represent the county that I now have the honor to represent ; whether I do or do not, it is a matter of no conaequence to me; but I do say that I will nof, under any circumstances, be coerced by the honorable gentleman. He ahoiild not forget, however, that his influence in Nor thumberland ia not what he might have anticipated, and that when he thought proper to come down from Toronto, in AprU laat, to oppoae the Hon. Solicitor General, when he waa contesting the Weat Riding with a very reapectable farmer, that notwithstanding the very powerful apeechea of the Hon. Preai dent of the Council, the Hon. Solicitor General was returned for that riding by a very large majority. I suppose that, had the Hon. President of the Council antici pated that he waa, within two months, to have had a seat in the same Cabinet with tbe Hon. SoUcitor General, he would have acted differently. I myself had a very strong invitation to go up to the West Riding to oppoae tbe Hon. SoUcitor General, but I waa wUUng to act upon the principle of retuming good for evil. I waa quite wilUng to aUow the electors of West Northumber land to choose for themselves whom they would elect for their representative in Par liaraent; and in regard to the Hon. Solicitor General, I muat aay that, aa far aa I can learn, he has discharged the duties of hia office with aatiafaction to the Government and the people that he repreaenta, and with credit to himself It ia not my intention to give the Government any factioua oppoai tion. I will cheerfully aupport any good measures for thebeneflt of the country which they may bring forward for our adoption ; but I wiah the Governraent to underatand, as I do not wish to occupy any doubtful position in this House, I am no supporter of theirs, and if a vote of want of confidence is at any time proposed, I am prepared to vote against them (Hear, hear.) Mr. JACKSON- 1 think it right to say a few worda on tbis question before the vote is taken ; but at this late hour, I will uot detain tbe House very long. The aubject haa been discussed from varioua pointa of view. In the early part of the debate, one gentleman, the bon. member for Hochelaga (Hon. Mr. Dorion), objected to the scheme mainly on the ground that it approximated too closely to a legislative union, and that it would interfere with the privileges which the parties to the union exercise in their respective localities; and if I remember rii^htly, be aaid tbat the plan ofthe Govern ment would have the effect of interfering with the language and religion of Lower Canadians. It occurred to me at the time he was making his speech, that he was taking untenable ground, and I felt grateful then, and I do ao now, that tbat hon. gentleman ia not in a poaition to exerciae more power, at this criais, than an ordinary member of the Legialature. I admire the ability of that honorable gentleman, and I conaider it unfortunate that at thia important juncture he did not rise above narrow and limited sectional views, and take more statesmanlike ground. (Hear, hear.) Then the hon. membor for North Ontario (Mr_. M. 0. Cameron) objected to Confederation from a different point of view, but he arrived at his conclusions from arguments of an entirely different character. Strange to say, he did not regard this with satisfaction, whUe a legislative union would meet with his appro val. He professed to believe that the Mari time Provincea would combine with Lower Canada, aud form a union detrimental to the interests of Upper Canada, placing the people the: e in a worse position than that which they at present occupy with an equality of representation. As he made that remark, I asked him what difference it could make then, whether we had a Federal or a Legislative union, which he professes to admire, as it would have charge of all the important general interests, Hia answer convinced me that there waa nothing to aupport hia argument. It aeemed to me that he took too much for granted in aasum- ing that there would be a union between Lower (Janada and the Blaritime Provinces as against Upper Canada. Itis hardly tobecon-' ceived tbat gentlemen called together for the performance of certain high purposes would atterapt to do an injury to one part ofthe country over another. (Hear, hear.) If such a sectional alliance was possible, it would be much more likely that the union would be formed with Upper Canada, inas much as that part of the proposed Con federacy has a muoh larger aggregate busi ness than any or either of the other separate sections. But I will not dwell upon this, asit appears to me to carry with it its own relutai ' tion. This principal reason for opposing this scheme is. I think, founded on the fact that the hon. gentlemen now united together in 885 the Government do not posseas his con fidence. He referred to their antecedents, and spoke of their being opposed to each other before, and said that it waa impoaaible for them to unite now for any good object. I think, air, it will acarcely be denied that in looking back upon the antecedents of our pubUc men, there is hardly one of any note who has not, during some portion of his life, found himaelf in such a poaition aato render it neceasary for him to abandon views which he had previously maintained, and that no government has been successful which has not been founded upon mutual conceaaiona. It ia necessary that public men on both sides .should unite in great emergencies in order to promote the general welfare. We know very well that those who are open to conviction very frequently change their course, and it is no disgrace to any one that under the influence of increased knowledge he bas ahaped his conduct in accordance with the degree of light which has surrounded him. The honorable gen tleman knows very well that we must judge the actions of individuals not merely by their motives — for these wc cannot often penetrate — but by the character and results of their actions. And so we must look upon the Scheme now before us as it really is. We must examine it for ourselves, and un less we see clear evidence to the contrary, we ought to give its promoters credit for honesty and aincerity. I have no sympathy with thoae who wilhngly attribute the ac tiona of public men to the infiuence of unworthy motivea, when they may fairly claim to originate in the higher qualitiea of the mind and heart. It ia the duty, I think, of all right-minded men to give this Govern ment the credit of acting from high-minded motives. But supposing, for the sake of argument, that these honorable gentlemen had united for dividing among themselves offices of profit and emolument. It is fortu nate that the germs of evU sel'lom attain to their complete development. Professions of patriotiam do not alwaya betoken the abaence of aelfiahneas. He has read history to little purpose who has not discovered that poUtical dishonesty haa frequently been not only harmleaa, but has been practically the min ister of public good. The hon. member for North Ontario (Mr. M. C. Cameron) stated the dther day, that under Confederation Upper Canada would contribute an un equally large proportion of the amount necessary to sustain the machinery of the Confederacy. He had a large array of figures before bim ; but as I took no notes of theae figurea, I am not prepared to dis pute their correctness. But he forgot this, which is a matter of great importance to be considered, that under Confederation there will be a uniformity in the tariffa of the aeveral provincea, and if the tariff of Canada is reduced so as to bring it into conformity with those of the Maritime Provinces, the dispropoition will disappear. An hon. ,o;entleman who afterwards addreaaed the House, and who, I regret, is abaent from the Houae by reaaon of in dispoaition — the hon. meniber for Brome (Mr. Dunkin) — I underatood to say that nations and constitu tions and governments owed their origin to that creative power to which all are indebted for existence and tbe means of perpetuating it. The idea is well expressed in the words of a celebrated writer : — ' ' There is a Divinity that shapes our ends, rough hew them aa we may." He (BIr. Dunkin) then went on to queation the honeaty of fhe purpose of those gentlemen, Hon. Blessrs. Ross, Galt and Cartier, who signed the deapatch of 1858, which reaulted in the Conference of laat Sep tember. He deacribed all the intermediate atagea as " accidenta," and then found fault with every item of the conferential arrangement. The hon. gentleman, on his own principles, ahould not criticise too se verely the action ofthe Govemment. They might be only instrumenta in the handa of the Supreme Architect, The reasonable method would be to examine the arrange ments or agreements ofthe Conference, and if the scheme is found to be based upon just and equitable principles, it must recommend itself to favorable consideration, and the ine vitable conclusion is that it ought to be adopted. I confess I admire the arrange ment, which haa no doubt been arrived at after much care and deliberation. 'The com mercial and financial parts of the scheme seem to me to be as just as, under the circum stances, they posaibly could be. It ia a very ordinary accompliahment to be able to find fault. It is much easier to deatroy than to build up. We know that thoae so disposed might take up the best schemea ever deviaed by human ingenuity, and draw improper concluaions therefrom. In fact there is no form of government in the world but what, if badly administered, would be productive of evil. On tbe other hand, a acheme somewhat defective in itself, if placed in the hands of good and patriotic men, might be made to 886 conduce to tUe advantage of the country — " That which is best administered is best." Mr. Speaker, no scheme can be entirely perfect. Indeed, it is scarcely desirable it should be so. There ahould be room for fhe exercise of political virtue, and scope for the exercise of that executive responsibility which attaches to our system of government. There is a great deal of discretion left to our public men, and they are expected to use their powers for the general weal and welfare. I am disposed to place confidence in" the Governmeut, and believe that they will, so far as their ability goes, work out this scheme to a desirable result, and in this I hope and trust they wiU succeed. The hon. meraber for Lennox and Addington (Mr. Cartwright), in his speech to-day, which, like all hia other apeechea, was of the moat admirable kind, made some profound observations. He had thought deeply upon the subject of which he was treating. He remarked that the Govemraent were merely giving effect to a foregone conclusion. He, no doubt, recognized that the public sentiment and public opinion had attained a certain state — had arrived at such a point, that the Govern ment were compeUed to go with the stream, and endeavor to consummate that which the people had already brought into such a con dition of forwardness. And I thought, sir, that this waa the proper and philoaophical view to take of the matter. It ia true, to my mind at all eventa— and I think that thoae who have made themselves acquainted with pohtical history, and the political history of England in particular, must come to the conclusion that thoae govemments act moat wiaely who take advantage of exiating cir cumatancea, and adapt legialation to the real wanta and exigenciea of the country. The question is not at aU timea what ia beat in the abatract, but what ia moat uaeful and advantageoua to the people. My idea of a atatesman is that he ahould be infiuenced to a large extent by motives of expediency. Abatract propoaitiona can aeldom be reduced to practice. It ia fooUah for gentlemen placed in the poaition of the Govemment to go againat the popular atream, and they best naanifest their prudence, tbeir ability, and their adaptation to the discharge of their im portant duties, who make uae of paasing eventa for directing the veasel of state into a aecure harbour. The honorable member for Missisquoi (Mr. O'Halloran) said the other night that there was too much legis lation — that the country waa governed to death, and I admit that to a certain extent there is some propriety in- his remarks ; but they did not apply to the preaent subject. I' presume we are not here for the purpose of discussing the paat acta of the Govern ment, but for the purpoae of considering the scheme now before us, and it will be an evidence of our good sense and wisdom — it will ahow, too, our aeriouaness — if we give it our calm and impartial conaideration without reference to extraneoua mattera. (Hear, hear) I think, sir, we are now passing out of the aeaaon of political childhood, and that we are being called upon, in the courae of events, to enter upon the dutiea and reapon- aibilitiea incidental to the period of youth. We are required to practise and inure our selves to the discharge of important dutiea, which require diacretion and self reliance. And as it is in nature, so it ia in communi tiea — there are varioua stages of progreaa through which we must paaa before we can arrive at the poaition of manhood. There are only two kinds of animala that attain to eminence — things that fly and thinga that creep. Thinga which fly are never aepure — ^^they are frequently brought down ; whilst thinga vyhich creep proceed firmly and cau tiously, if alowly, and by degreea arrive at the topmoat point. And so people who pass at a bound from a state of political childhood to a state of political manhood, violate the order and arrangement observed in na ture. We have seen inatancea where people have diaregarded the varioua stages of political exiatence; but in ao doing they have deprived themselvea of the ad vantagea of that experience which is ne cessary to a vigorous manhood, and which previous training alone can secure. I trust we shall not make this mistake, but that we shall obaerve the order and gradationa of nature, and paas through the various politioal stages of being, from childhood upwards, in aueh a way tbat we may learn to diacharge the duties of our position in a spirit of self- rehance; that we shaU have been taught how to make the beat of our circumatancea, and prove that the training we have received during our pupUage haa been auch aa to fit us for a vigoroua and prosperous T'^^^X- <^^^®'^''-) ^ think that thia view of the subject is one of some importance— so much 80, that it haa been said the logical conclusion of it would be our independence. 887 Well, I do not think there is anything dis loyal, that there is anything improper, in supposing that the time may come when this British North American territory shall be the abode of a great and independent people. I do not wish to live to see it. But I knowwery well that when the time comes, there will be no interference on the part of Great Britain with that which seems to be a condition of the inevitable order of things ; that the country with which we are now con nected and allied — and itis notonly a political alliance, but a social alliance, an attachment of affection and esteem — would not at all feel jealous if in the course of events the people inhabiting British North America should be prosperous enough and numerous enough to aspire to independence. (Hear, hear.) Blr. Speaker, the circumstances whioh have brought about the contemplated measure — and I trust it will be a successful one — are such as have forced themselves on the con sideration ofthe Government. I have already alluded to one of these circumstances, and that is the fact that we are passing from the stage of childhood to a higher and more reaponsible position — that the Government of this country has for some time been in a state of transition, and that this is the only relief which the circumstances present to us, the only way in which an amelioration can be found. During a number of years, and especially since I have taken an active part in politics — in the course of my various elec tion contests — I have invariably stated, that while I looked upon representation by population as a remedy for the political inequalities which existed as between the two sections of the province, a Federal union of the British North American Provinces seemed to me to be the only proper and legitimate conclusion to be ultimately arrived at. Therefore, in advocating this scheme and in giving myvote for it, as I shall do wheu the matter is brought to that stage which will enable a vote to be taken, I am only doing that which I have for a number of years looked forward to, and whioh I believe the exi gencies ofthe country necessitate. (Hear.) There are other circumstances besides that to which I have aUuded, which render me favorable to the adoption of the resolutions now before tbe House. The war in the United States, and the, at one time, ap parently imminent disintegration of that republic, strongly directed our attention to the necessity and desirability of uniting with our neighbors for defensive purposes. I do not say that the desire for a union of the provinces grew out of the war in the United States, nor am I going to give any opinion in reference to that war. We all regret its existence, and will all be grateful when it is brought to a close, and the bless ings of peace shall again visit our continent. I hope that the commercial relations as between us and the United States will be continued ; that we shall bave the freest intercourse with that people, and that the passport system being removed, the time is not far diatant when our relationa with them ahall be as friendly and aa cordial aa they have heretofore been. (Hear, hear.) The threatened repeal of the Reciprocity treaty is another thing that has led to the strong feeling that has been aroused in favor of tbia soheme. We hope by thia union to obtain a large number of cuatomera for our producta, intercourse with whom will not be subject to thoae interruptions that charac terise trade with foreign nations. We shall have a large territory under our own govemment, trade with which and through which will secure to us mutual advantages. Having made these remarks, I would paas on to observe that the expressed desire on the part of the leading men, both of the Government and of the Opposition, in all the provinces, for a close connection, is another strong reason why we should at once take the necessary steps for enabUng the union to be carried out. It is a most remarkable and moat favorable circumatance that the beat men, the ableat men, the wiaeat men and the most patriotic men in all the provinces — men whose integrity and abilities have raised them to the highest places in the regards of the people, and whose wisdom in the management of public affairs has auatained them for a long period in those high and honorable positions — met together and agreed upon a scheme of union without any diaaenaion. Tbia agreement in forming a basis of a Conatitution, and a foundation to what may become a great nation, I look upon aa a most favorable omen indeed. I look upon this union of sentiment as another strong reason for our taking the necessary steps to carry out the union ao happily inaugur ated, as also a atrong evidence of the pro priety and wiadom which characterised the courae of the hon. gentlemen who composed the respective delegations. The gentlemen representing the Lower Provinces gave 888 evidence of ability of a very high order, and I am sure the country will regret that any of the gentlemen who so well adorned the Conference, and who occupied auch honorable poaitiona in the government of their provincea, should have loat those posi tions through attachment to the scheme, for I had learned to look up to those men with a great deal of interest and hope for the future. (Hear, hear.) They are men of such a superior order, that they would grace any legislature in which they might be called upon to take part, and I trust they may be soon again placed in the poaitions of power and trust from which they have been so unhappily ejected. (Hear, hear.) 'There are other reasons to whioh I might refer, that are pressing the subject upon our attention. I will first, however, briefly refer to one important point connected with the subject, about which a good deal has been said by thoae who have spoken againat the reaolutions, and it is a matter that will be made the utmost of among the electors of Upper Canada. I mean the question of referring the scheme to a vote of the people, at a general election or some other way, to ascertain what their views are upou it before taking final action in this House. Previous to the opening of the present session, I took occasion to visit several townshipa in the county I have the honor to repreaent, I laid the whole matter aa fully before them aa I could well do, and I did not meet with a single individual who did not recognize it as the duty of the preaent Houae of Parlia ment to carry tbe meaaure into effect aa speedily as possible, so far as it waa in the power of our Legialature and Government to do. At varioua meetinga reaolutiona were voluntarily propoaed by individuala in the audience, inatrueting me to aupport the measure, and further stating that they would conaider it a calamity if a general election wero reaorted to for the mere pur pose of obtaining the consent of the peo ple on the subject, nine-tenths of whose preaa endorse it, So satisfied were my con stituents of the fairness of the acheme on the whole, and of tho importance of having it go into operation with the least delay posaible, that I feel that I shall be sustained in the vote I am about to give, by the sentiment of thoae wham I repre sent in this House. For these reaaons, then, I am prepared to vote fbr the proposed union of all the Britiah American Provinces, as provided for in the resolutions now before the House. (Hear, hear.) Mr. Speaker, I trust tbe House will not regard me as desirous of assuming the office of a censor, if I expressmybelief that many of thespeeches that have been made upon this question have contained a vast quantity of matter quite irrelevant to the question under dis cussion. 'There may be parts of the arrange ment propiosed that are unsatisfactory to many hon. gentlemen, but it is utterly im possible to devise a scheme that will be acceptable to everybody, or that will not be open to the criticism of seeming to bear harder on one section ofthe country than on another. But it should not be judged ia that manner, but by its general fairness and by its being calculated to promote tbe wel fare of the entire country embraced and to be embraced in the Confederacy. It would be absurd to suppose that a scheme could be deviaed for the purpoae that would please and satisfy every section. The scheme under conaideration ahould not be treated and criticised in thia narrow, contracted view. Some portiona of the country may have to make conceaaiona and aacrifices for the public good, but these should be cheer fully borne, if not of too aggravating a nature. If Upper Canada is blessed with more wealth than any of the other provinces, it ought not to be forgotten that its account ability and ita reaponsibility are greater — that they are in proportion to ita richea — and while the people of that important section of the Confederacy may be called upon to con cede some things that they have valued very highly for the general welfare, yet it is not for a moment to be supposed — and no one who dispassionately examines tbe whole sub ject can come to that conclusion — that Upper Canada will not receive very important advantagea in return, in other respects. There muat be conciliation and compromiae between tbe aeveral conflicting interests found in so large and so varied a territory, and we never can have a union without meeting and accommodating ourselves to thia difficulty. (Hear, hear.) The question of our defencea ia another important conaid eration in connection with the subject ; but I am not going to diaouas that, becauae I am not a military man. I cannot, however, see how any hon. gentleman can deliberately stand up and expreas as his candid convic tion, tbat the propoaed union will not in any manner increaae our defenaive power. To me, auch atatementa soem most extraordinary. But this portion of the question has already 889 been quite fully discussed ; and not being, as I before remarked, a military man, I do not think anything I could say upon it would add much to the enlightenment of the House at this late stage of the debate. I will, therefore, Mr. Speaker, simply say that I look forward to the union with great hope for the future of our land. In the first place, the union will vastly enlarge our ideas of the greatness and ultimate destiny of these pro vinces, and give scope for higher aspirations. It will make the young men of this country feel that they have a better inheritance than they now feel to be theirs, and an opportunity of rising to higher points of distinction in this the land of their birth or adoption. The same opportunities will also be open to the young men ofthe Lower Provinces, and in this con nection I have no hesitation in saying, from what I know of them, that the inhabitants of the Lower Provinces, for enterprise, in dustry and general intelUgence, will compare favorably with any other portion of the ter ritory that will be embraced in the union. It will be an advantage to us to have their coSperation in working out the future of this country, and our connection with them will give birth and life to those ideas that lie at the foundation of a nation's prosperity and happiness. (Hear, hear.) And now, Mr. Speaker, having thus rapidly glanced at some of those important particulars that to my mind render the proposal under con sideration a wise and desirable one for our adoption, I sball conclude; because I do not desire to protract the debate, by stating, that for the reasons I have briefly adduced, and from the process of reasoning I have been led to adopt, it is my intention to sup port the motion for the adoption of the resolutions respecting Confederation, pro posed by my frieq,d the Hon. Attorney General West. (Cheers.) Mr. McCONKEY said— Mr. Speaker, at this late hour of the night I rise to addresa you with very great reluctance, but I feel that I would not be doing juatice to myself and the people who sent me here, did I allow the vote on this momentous question to be taken without expressing my opinion upon it, however briefly. In doing so, Mr. Speaker, I shall not invoke the aid of history, or exhume old newspaper files to give the opinions of other men, but shall simply confine myself to stating a few of the ideas which have suggested themselves to my own mind in considering the subject. 113 The task is the more difficult at this stage of the debate, as the arguments for and against the measure have been already so ably and lengthily elaborated by members of this honorable House. Mr. Speaker, we have had eventful times in Canada. The union of the Canadas was an import ant event in this country ; and, sir, although latterly it has nofc worked satisfactorily, I am not one of those who are prepared to say that under that union we did not prosper. From a very small population, we have grown, under the union, to be a very consid erable people, comprising a population of two millions and a-half. We have also grown in wealth, intelligence, and everything elae that tends to national greatness. But diffi culties between the provinces have sprung up ; Upper Canada rapidly increased in po pulation and wealth over Lower Canada, and haa for the laat ten or twelve years demanded an increased representation on the floor of this House. She argued, and very properly, that her position was a degraded one — that with a population in excess of that of Lower Canada by 400,000 people, and contributing about three-fourths of the revenue of this country, she was entitled to such a constitutional arrangement as would place her on a perfect equality with the sister province, and that she would not be satisfled until that was conceded, as the demand was a just and honorable one. Sir, just although this was. Lower Canada, with, I have no doubt, just as much honesty and quite as much determination, resisted their demand. Hence the terrific struggles which ensued between the sections for the last few yeara. Within the paat three years we have had no fewer than three Ministerial crises. Neither the one party nor the other could govern, so evenly were parties balanced in this House and the country. The machinery of government was almost entirely stopped, and a chronic crisis had set in. Sir, it was apparent to every discerning mind that some solution of existing difficulties must be sought. The present state of things could not continue. Mr. Speaker, I well recollect the announcement of the Honorable At torney General West. After the defeat of his Government, in June last, that honorable gentleman manfully acknow ledged the political difficulty in which this country was placed. He informed the House that His ExceUency the Governor General had granted the Government carte blanche, 890 involving a diaaolution of Parliament, if they choae, but that they, nevertheless, hesitated tc^^exercise the power ; that while individual changes might be made in the constituencies, the two great parties would come back nearly the same ; aud added, thathehad had an inter view with the hon. member for South Oxford (Hon. BIr. Brown) of a most satisfactory nature, from whicii he thought he saw a solution of our difficulties, and asked an adjournment of the House. Subsequently, interviews were had between the members of the Government and the member for South Oxford, which resulted in the present Co alition Government. Sir, after a full con sideration of the subject in all its bearings, I decided to give the new Government my support, trusting they would be able, as I believed they desired, to put the affairs of this country on a more satisfactory and enduring basia. But, while I support tbis Government, I muat not be understood as approving of coalitions generally. I hold that to a country enjoying representative inatitutions and responsible government, it is indeed a matter of very little consequence which ofthe political parties are in power, so long as there is a strong party to scruti nise their acts, and exercise a general sur veillance over tbem. Vraen, however, the two great parties coalesce, and there is no atrong party in the country to watch them, there is more or less danger of abuses and corruption creeping in. I do not, however, desire that the gentlemen on the Treaaury benchea ahould understand that I apply this remark to them. They, sir, I believe, are not only pure, but, like C.<5ESAr's wife, a'bove auapicion. And, if even a neceaaity existed in any country to justify a coalition, it was in Canada ; and I rejoice to know that we had stateamen among us who could rise above the petty political and personal squabbles, in which they had been unfor tunately too long engaged, to grapple with a great national difficulty. (Cheers.) I think, too, it was most fortunate — providen tial, I might say — that this country had a strong, vigorous Government during the past season, when complications between us and the United States were gathering. To the strength of the Government we owe the prompt manner in which raiders and others,, desirous of creating a difficulty between England and America, were put down. (Hear, hear.) BIr. Speaker, I have read the reaolutions of the Conference, now in your hands, carefully; and whUe, in my opinion, many of the details are objection able, from an Upper Canadian pointof view, I have, nevertheless, no doubt they were framed with a desire to do justice to all the provinces. No person can read those resolutions without coming to the conclusion that mutual concessions must have been made all round. They clearly bear the impress of compro mise. No doubt, sir, much difficulty was experienced by the gentlemen composing the Conference, in fitting and dovetailing the heterogeneous parts or provinces into a homogeneous whole. 1 have listened at tentively to the speeches of the Opposition, and have so far failed to hear of a better proposition than the one before us; and, indeed, I am not surprised that a better proposition should not have been presented to us, considering that this scheme was com piled by the master minda in Britiah America. (Hear, hear.) I stated, sir, that some of the details were objectionable, and I now repeat that had the Govemment permitted amendments to the resolutions, I certainly would have supported them ; but in view of the very critical position in which this country stands, I will not assume the re sponsibility of opposing this scheme as a whole. (Hear, hear.) Although I admit the building of the Intercolonial Railroad to be just as necessary to the proposed Con federation as the spinal column to the human frame ; nevertheless, in view of the jobbing and extravagance committed with the Grand Trunk, I have a dread of the amount its construction and working will cost this country. Sir, I am not as sanguine as some honorable gentlemen in this Houae in reference to this road. I have no faith in it aa a commeicial enterprise ; I look upon it as a military necessity, and a bond of union between the Confederated Provinces. Sir, we have been told that the Imperial Government has been notified of the inten tion of the Government of the United States to abrogate the Reciprocity treaty. To my mind this will be most unfortunate for Canada, and I sincerely trust that the mem bers ofthe Government who will shortly visit England will urge the Imperial Govern ment to secure a renewal cf it, if it can be obtained on honorable terms. While hoping this treaty may be renewed, I do not participate in the feeling that its abrogation will drive us into the United States. (Hear, hear.) Sir, I regret to hear 891 gentlemen speak so glibly of annexation. One tells us that if Confederation is not consummated, annexation is the other al ternative — that we are already on an " in clined plane " — and that the abrogation of the treaty and refusal to adopt the reso lutions in your hands wUl certainly " grease the ways." Sir, I believe nothing of the kind. The assertion is a libel on the people of Canada, who, I believe, are truly loyal to the Britiah Crown, and have no desire to change the state of their political existence. (Hear, hear.) But while provision is made in these resolutions for the construction of the Intercolonial Railroad, I am aorry to see that uo decisive provision is made for the western extension. And I would not be at all satisfied myself with the resolutions as they stand, were it not for the positive assurances ef the Government that that mat ter would be attended to simultaneously with the construction of that road. For I hold it to be of essential importance that we should proceed, as soon as possible, with the opening up of the North-Weat country and the extension of our canal system. (Hear, hear.) And while on this subject, I may be permitted to say that I hope, that in going on with the canals, the Government will not overlook the necessity which«xists for the construction of the great Georgian Bay Canal. (Hear, hear.) I reaide on the shores of the Georgian Bay, and am satisfied that that is the best feasible route by which we can hope to bring the trade of the Great West through thia country. (Hear, hear.) Ido hope the Government will seriously consider this when they are framing their canal scheme. I am glad to see the Hpn. Attorney General West listening closely to what I am saying on this subject, and I trust he will not overlook it. Hon. Atty. Gen. MACDONALD — Hear ! hear 1 Mr. McCONKEY— I have no hesitation in expressing my desire that these resolu tions as a whole may be carried into effect, and that the whole of the other provinces will come into the arrangement. I hope they will. I would be sorry to see the Britiah Government attempt to coerce them against their wUl — but I trust that before many months they will see the propriety of coming in — and that before this time twelve months we shall have been forined into one great British American Confederation. (Hear, hear.) I have no doubt that the consummation of this union will give peace and contentment to the whole country. I have no hesitation in stating my own con viction that it win give peace and content ment to Upper Canada, by giving us the management of our own local affairs without let or hindrance, while Lower Canada in Hke manner will have the management of her own local affairs. It will also give Upper Canada, at least in the House of Com mons, what we have so long contended for — representation according to our population. I am happy to find that this is fully conced ed to us in the popular branch of the Legislature. (Hear, hear.) I cannot do otherwise than approve of the proceedings of the Government the other day, on tbe intelligence reaching ua of the result of the' elections in one of the eastern provinces. When I heard that many of thoae elections in New Brunswick had gone against the scheme, I was at a loss to decide what would be the proper course — whether the scheme should still be pressed, or whether we should turn our attention to some other scheme. On full consideration of the subject, I have arrived at the conclusion that the Gov ernment have acted properly, and that they deserve every credit for the prompt action they have taken J;o get a speedy decision on this quesfllbn. It is clear that the question of our defences, and that of our commercial relations with the United States, must be immediately looked to. Some steps must, as soon as possible', be taken to put the country in a proper state of defence. The season is approaching when we would be in a very unsatisfactory condition for meeting a hostile force, and it is the duty of the Gov- nerment to take prompt action, that we may be prepared, should the hour of need arise. (Hear, hear.) A good deal has been said during this discusaion about the propriety of an appeal to the people. I hold that great revolutions of this kind ought to receive the sanction of the people. But, in view of the fact that it ia well known that ninety out of every hundred, in Upper Canada at leaat, are in favor of the scheme, I do not complain that it has not been considered advisable to sub mit it to a direct vote of the people. Fpr my own part, being fully alive to the great responsibility I had to assume in voting upon these resolutions, I felt it my duty, before coming here, to hold meetings through my county, in order to consult rny constituents. Those meetings were held all through the 892 riding, and at every one of them the people were unanimous in supporting the scheme. (Hear, hear.) Some of the details were objected to, but the scheme as a whole was approved of. These meetings were attended by men of all parties, and the resolutions were moved and seconded in many cases by my political opponents. I did not fiod more than three gentlemen, at all of those meet ings, who gave opposition to the measure. And I may say further, that, when an appeal to the people was mentioned, the expression of opinion was, that it was not at aU desirable or necessary, as it was known that the mea sure was so generally approved of. The result was, that my constituents instructed me to support these resolutiona, giving me authority at th.e same time to propose amend ments to such details as I might disapprove of, if the Govemment would allow any amendments to be made. (Hear, hear.) I find, from conversation with aeveral hou. members from the west, that I differ from them with reference to the compoaition of the Legislative Council. I hardly approved of the propoaition of the Government when an innovation was made on the constitution of the Legialative Council in 1855. I felt it waa a wrong atep, and fully sympathized with the oppoaition given to it af that t^jne by the preaent Hon. Preaident of tbe CouncU (Hon Mr. Brown) and the honorable member for Peel (Honorable J. H. Cameron). Had I then been in a position to give effect to my views, I should have joined those honorable gentlemen ia proteating against that encroachment upon the Conatitution. I approve entirely of the propoaition contain ed in the resolutions now before the House, with reference to thia matter. If a neceaaity exiats at all for a check upon haaty and ill-digested legialation of the popular branch, that check should not derive its power from the same source, and in the same man ner. I have, however, for some time in clined to the opinion that the Legislative Council might, with safety, be abolished altogether, and that thereby there would be effected an immense aaving to the country. In carrying out this scheme, very much, of course, will depend upon the character of the local conatitutiona. If such a system can be adopted aa will render the working of the local governments simple and inex pensive, it will conduce very muoh to the prosperity of tha whole Confederation. I muat aay, air, that if I am permitted to have a voice in the framing of a Constitution for Upper Canada, I shall insist upon it being of the most inexpensive kind, dispensing with a great deal of the paraphernalia that we see so muoh of here. (Hear, hear.) In bringing the new system into operation, and laying the foundations of the new nationality of British North America on a permanent and enduring basis, a weighty responsibility indeed devolves on the governments of these provinces, and the most rigid economy consistent with propriety ought ta be, and I trust will be, a leading feature in their arrangements. (Hear, hear.) Mr. Speaker, I am no alarmist, but disguise it as we may, this country is at the present moment deep ly depressed. I entirely dissent from sen timents enunciated by honorable gentlemen on the floor of this House as to the general prosperity of Canada; the actual state of matters is not as they represent it. Through a failure of crops for a number of years back in Upper Canada, that section of the pro vince is in a state of agricultural aad com mercial prostration ; farmers and others are unable to meet their engagements to the merchant, who, in consequence, is unable to meet his liabilities to the wholesale dealers, and the result ia that scores, I may aay hundreda, are obliged to collapse and go into liquidation; bank agencies are being with drawn from the country districts, and bank ing accommodation very much curtailed. Mr. Speaker, these are facta that cannot be gainaayed. Every branch of induatry is almost paralyzed at the present moment, and a general gloom hangs like a pall over the land. Under these circumstances, it behoves the Government to do everything in their power to revive and foster industry in the country. Sir, I will not say that this Gov ernment does so, but governments have been too much in the habit of borrowing from the banks that capital which ought to go into circulation for the benefit of the trade of the country. I hold that it is the duty of all governments to refrain from doing anything that will bear upon the people's industry; and I implore this Government to turn their attention to the position of this country just now, and do all they can to better the condition of the people. WhUe, sir, there are features in the proposition before you which, if they stootl alone on their merits, I should certainly oppose, yet, as 1 stated before, I do not t -.ink them of sufficient importance to justify me in rejecting the scheme, which ia certainly calculated to elevate us from the position of 893 mere colonists to that of citizens of a great British American nation/ covering as it will half a continent, stretching from the mighty Atlantic on the east, to the golden shores of the Pacific on the west, bounded on the south by the great American Repub lic, and on the north by — sir, I waa going to say the North Pole — with, not an inter colonial railroad merely, but an interoceanic communication, stretching from sea to sea. Blj. Speaker, I deeply feel the great res ponsibility that attaches to the vote I will shortly be called upon to give. I have weighed well this matter, and taking aU things into account, I can arrive at no other conclusion than that it is my duty to vote for the resolutions in your hands, and I am now prepared to do so, believing that I am carrying out the views of th^ great bulk of my constituents. (Cheers.) On motion of BIr. Taschereau, the debate was then adjourned. Friday, March 10, 1865. ¦ On the Order, for resuming the debate upon the motion •' That the question be now put" upon the Resolutions relating to Confederation, being called — Hon. BIr. HOLTON rose to a point of order, objecting thatthe " previous question" waa in the nature of an amendment, an J that no member could move an amendment to his own motion. After some discussion, Mr. speaker decided as follows:— "The original motion, made by the Hon. Attorney General for Upper Canada, is that the House should concur in certain resolu tiona relating to a Federal union of the provincea. Debate having arisen thereon, the Hon. Attomey General fer Upper Ca nada moves, not in amendment in my opinion, ' that that question be now put.' Tbe sub stance of an amendment is to alter the ori ginal question. Does thia motion alter the original question ? So far from that, it is a proposal to bring that question before the House for immediate decision. The autho rities cited to show that thia motion in an amendment sustain the contrary view iii my judgment, because they only state that the previous question is 'in the nature of an amendment.' If it were really an amend ment, or were to be used as an amendment it Would be stated that it was in fact an amendment. The motion to adjourn is also spoken of as being in the nature of an amend ment, but it is not an amendment, and like ' The previous question,' does not displace tbe original proposition, if carried. Hence I conclude that ' The previous question' is not an amendment. The objection that the Hon. Attorney General for Upper Canada cannot move it, on account of having pro posed the original motion, in my opinion is not valid." Mr. taschereau said — It is not without hesitation, BIr. Speaker, that I riae at thia late period of the debate to offer a few observations on the measure before us — the plan of Oonfederation of the British North American Provincea; and my heaitation is the greater that I am under the necesaity, not only of speaking on a question which has been so long and skilfully dis cussed, that it would appear almost impos sible to say anything which may interest hon. members, but alao ani more eapecially that after long and deliberate conaideration — after carefully weighing the gist and tendency of these resolutions, and tracing out the effects which cannot fail, I believe, to result from the measurepf whioh they are the exponents — I feel myself bound, Mr. Speaker, to aban don, on this question, those with -whom I hav3 always acted hitherto, to differ in opinion from those whose talents and judg ment I have never ceased to admire, and to record my vote against the new Constitution whioh is proposed to us in those resolutions, (Hear 1 hear ! from the left.) It could not fail to be to me a particular cause of regret that I felt compelled to come to this con clusion. I could not understand that this measure was a simple party matter— one of those questions on which those party feelings which have prevailed in Canada so many years ought to influence any body. I could not conceive how, in considering a question which, in my opinion, imperils aU that we hold moat dear, and opena to ua, if itis carried, the prospect of a future, dark with clouds, portending evU not only to us Lower Canadians, but perhaps no less to all British North America — I could not conceive, I say, how I could be unmindful of my convictions, and lay aside my fears and the sense of duty which binds me here, to yield blind obedience and submission to the influence of political party. I thought myself at liberty to think 894 for myself, even on so important a question ; and I am persuaded that if there are members of this House who consider themselves authorized to doubt the sanity of those who do not always think as they do, they aro not in a majority here. For my own part, BIr. Speaker, I re spect every man's opinion. I am willing to allow all who are so disposed to think differently from me, and do not, on that account, hold them to be either prejudiced or dishonest; on the contrary, I am willing to believe that they act according to their convictiona, and with perfect good faith. I deaire that others will judge me in the same manner, and that those from whom I am now dissentient on the subject of the reso lutiona in your hand, Mr. Speaker, will believe, at leaat, that I too am acting in this matter according to my honest convictions and with good faith ; -i.hat I, too, am anima ted by love for my country and my nation ality ; that I, too, have at heart the preservation of that nationality and those institutions which have been transmitted to ua by our fathera, aa the reward of so many struggles and sacrifices. (Hear, hear.) At this advanced atage of the debate, it is not my intention to combat or discusa all the arguments which have been urged in favor of Confederation, I must, how*fer, obaerve that I have not been convinced by the hon. gentlemen who have apoken before me, that the Constitution offered to us embodies guarantees sufficient to protect our rights. I am of opinion, therefore, that the vote which I shall give against Confederation would be given by a large majority of my constituents, and a large majority of the people of Lower Canada; and my opinion on this subject is so flrmly grounded, that I should despise myself if, for the sake of not separating from my party, I were to vote for Confederation, my convictions being so strong and so sincere. (Hear, hear.) Wc were taught to believe, till within the laat two or three days, that the most ample diacuaaion of the qucBtion would be allowed; but, by the moving of the previous question, the face of things has undergone a change. This House, and all Lower Canada, supposed that before being called upon to vote on the main question, we should bave had an opportunity of obtaining an expresaion of the opinion of the people. I am perauaded that if, after a full and complete discuaaion of the meaaure in thia House, the people were called upon for their opinion, they would be more decidedly opposed to Confederation than they ever were to any measure. (Hear.) Unfor tunately, as the previous question has been moved, we must vote on the resolutions as they stand, without being able even to move amendments which might render them less objectionable to the country. I now come to the appeal to the people. Well, I main tain that in voting to change fhe constitution of the Government, without consulting the people on the aubject, the members of tKs House are exceeding their powers ; and that even if the people were in favor of Con federation, they ought not to pass it, as they are now about to do, without apecial authority. (Hear, hear.) 'The hon. member for South Lanark (Mr. BIorris) haa told ua that thia is no new question — that it has been for a long time a subject of discusaion — that the people understood it thoroughly, and that the members of this House were privileged to vote on it without referring it to their constituents. ' I am quite aware that much has been written on the subject of the Confederation of the provinces ; but has the question ever been discussed before the people at elections ? I am fully convinced and perfectly certain tbis question was never brought up at any election, nor the question of any Confederation at all. It has never been laid before the people, and the people have never expressed an opinion on the subject. (Hear, hear.) It appears to me that the amendment which is to be moved by the hon. member for Peel (Hon. J. H. Cameron), after the present resolutions have been voted by the House, wiU be in a singular position. (Hear, hear ) I have understood the explanations given by the Honorable Attorney General for Upper Canada (Hon. J. A. Macdonald), re lative to the resolution of the honorable member for Peel — that the reaolutiona before the House would be passed first, and that afterwards, when the House went into com mittee, the hon, member for Peel would move his amendment, namely, " that the House will vote the Addreaa to Her Majesty thia evening, in order that the Govemment may deapatch it to England to-morrow, if they please, and that on Blonday afternoon the hon. member for Peel will come apd move an Address to His ExceUency, praying tbat he will refer these resolutions to the people." (Hear, hear.) I confess that I do not understand how the members of this 895 House, who are in favor of the appeal to the people, can vote for Confederation after the previous question has been decided, any more than I can understand how the hon. member for Peel can move the appeal to the people after the resolutions have been passed. The hon. member has said that he would endeavor to move his resolutions before the Addresa is presented to His Excellency, or before it is referred to a committee of the whole House ; but I think I understood like wiae that the Hon. Attorney General for Upper Canada will not allow thia, and haa said that the hon. member for Peel is not entitled to do so. (Hear, hear.) I am not alone in feeUng the apprehensions which I have expressed relative" to the new Consti tution intended for us. A njember of this House, who wrote, now a long time since, on the subject of Confederation, has allowed us to see indistinctly that the resolutions as presented to us did not afford sufficient guarantees to settle all our sectional difficul ties at once. The honorable member for Montmorency could not, in his pamphlet written in 1865, avoid saying as follows : — But, nevertheless, it is clearly evident that con current legislation ia full of danger for the future ; that is plainly laid down even in the clause that w'e are now diacuaaing, since, to obviate it, eentral legislation haa invariably been made to predominate over local legislation. Will it be posaible to avoid the points of contact likely to be produced by concurrent legislation, or to define them -with auch preciaion that these conflicts would be impoaaible, or nearly so ? WithoVit harmony the system would be worth nothing, and would soon destroy itaelf; andthe harmony of the aystem cannot be found exclusively in the predominant power ofthe Governmeut and of the Federal Parliament. It ia necessary that this harmony should also exiat in the inferior machi nery, and be felt throughout the whole aystem . And afterwarda, in the same chapter, he adds :— Iu fact, will not the elementa upon whioh the local institutions will be baaed, be reproduced in all their vivacity in the Government and in the F«deral Parhament 7 Aud this local power which it has been their object to compress will react dangerously on the whole syatem. At one time it may be Lower Canada that will be puniahing its Ministry and ita membera for having wounded Lower Canadian feelinga and striking at ita inter ests ; aud another time it may be Upper Canada, or perhapa the Atlantic Provincea, that may make similar complaints. This should not be, and to avoid it our eminent stateamen muat put their heads together to find a better solution to the problem. While the hon. member for Montmorency was writing that article, he naturally saW that Confederation would have some very com plicated parts in its mactiinery, and that the difficulties which might occur would not be easily surmounted — that the resolutions would need to be amended. That was, no doubt, the opinion of the hon. member for Montmorency when he wrote those articles, but since he has found that the Ministry are resolved not to allow any amendment of the resolutions,- the honorable member has thought it better to take them as they are, with all their imperfections, than to risk losing Confederation altogether. (Hear, hear.) I believe, Mr. Speaker, that we needed a remedy for the constitutional dif ficulties in which we were involved, but I believe also that the remedy proposed would be worse than the disease sought to be cured. (Hear, hear.) I believe that the country has suffered from those difficul ties, but on the other hand I see in Con federation internal strife in the local legisla tures, not to speak of that strife which will infallibly spring up at an early day between the federal and the local legislatures. (Hear, hear.) It is evident that the federal will never be able to satisfy the local legislatures. In Lower Canada, for instance, we shall have a pretty strong party — the English party, Protestants, who WiH carry their complaints to the Federal Government, just as, in Up per Canada, they made complaints relative to representation based on population, and that party being a minority in Lower Canada, wiU seek a remedy for their evils, real or imaginary, at the hands of the Federal Government. Moreover, we shall have con stant contests and sectional heart-burnings between the local legislaturea themselvea, on all those subjects on which their interests may come into collision. (Hear, hear.) Let us suppose, for instance, tbat the Legisla ture of Lower Canada should mako some perfectly just demand, something to which that province is clearly entitled, and that the repreaentativea of Upper Canada and the Maritime Provinoes should combine to hinder it from obtaining its demand — would the Lower Canadians be well satisfied with such treatment ¦? And this might easily happen. The hon. member for Vaudreuil (Mr. Harwood) has spoken in pompous language of the prosperous future which awaits us under Confederation. To hear him we are not only to have coal mines, 896 but lakes of gold at our disposal. I think the honorable member's figures of rhetoric have carried him rather too far; and I sin cerely believe that instead of that prosperous and happy future foreseen by him, we are preparing for ourselves a state of things which will cause us to repent in ten years of what we are now doing. I believe that we are commencing Confederation ten years too soon. (Hear,, hear.) We should have an Intercolonial Railway at least five or six years before thinking of Confederation. At present we are as much strangers to New Brunswick and Nova Scotia as we were previous to last autumn. We may perhaps know them a little better than we did before we began to discuss Confederation ; and we ought, in the first place, to establish easy me thods of communication between those pro vinces and ourselves, as a means of bringing about Confederation at some future day, if it be practicable. I say that the Intercolonial Railway ought first to be built, and that Confederation might be put off oven several years after that. (Hear, hear.) Article 41 of the resolutions before us says as follows : — The Local Government and Legialature of each province shall be conatruoted in auch manner aa the existing Legialature of each auch province ¦shall provide. If I underatand tbat article right, the local constitution of Lower Canada will be settled by the present Legislature ; juat aa in New Brunawick, Nova Scotia, &c., the preaent legialaturea will decide on the conatitution of their legialatures under Confederation. Very well ; but in that caae Upper Canada will give ua a conatitution, aa we may give her one. The effect of that clause will be, that in order to the organization of its local con stitution. Lower Canada will stand with 47 French-Canadian votes, against 83 votes of members of other origins. We shall there fore not stand on the same footing as New Brunswick or Nova Scotia in this respect; the difference will be very great. (Hear, hear.) We have only 47 French-Can adian votes out of 130, and we could not count on Upper Canadian members for the safety of our interests — either local or religious — whereas they would have the support of all the English and Protestant members from Lower Canada. (Hear.) And in Confederation the English minority of Lower Canada will not make common cause with the French-Canadian party, but, on the contrary, with the Upper Canadian party ; for they will look to Upper Canada for pro tection. (Hear, hear.) We are told that all our interests and institutions are protected, and that the clergy are in favor of Confeder ation. I, for my own part, have seen no proof of the truth of that assertion ; I be lieve that the clergy have not made any display of their opinions on this question. I am moreover convinced that those of that body who have considered the question, have looked upon it as fraught with danger for us — as pregnant with evils, the develop ment of which may be grievous to us as a nation hereafter. Another part of the reso lutions whieh we should not adopt without consideration, is that contained in the 34th article of clause 29. It reads as follows ; — The Generalt Parliament ahall have power to make lawa for the eatabliahment of a General Court of Appeal for the Federated Provinces. We have a guarantee that we are to have our own local tribunala, that our judges will be taken from the har of Lower Canada,and that our civil laws will be maihtained. Why then establish a Federal Court of Appeals, in wbich appeals will lie from the decisions of all our judges? We are told, it is true, by the Hon. Minister of Finance, that the resolutions did not create a Court of Appeals, but only gave the Federal Parliament the power fo create it. But what difference is there between creating the court forthwith and granting a right to create it hereafter? The principle is the same. If the Govern ment may lawfully create such a court, no one can prevent the Federal Govemment from establishing it whenever they think fit. Would thia tribunal be an advantage to us French- Canadiana, who are so attached to our civil code ? It will be composed of judgea from all the provinces — from New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, Upper Canada, &c. ; and not withstanding the talents and the learning of all those judges, we Lower Canadiana cannot hope to find the same justice from such a tribunal as we should receive from one consiating of judgea from Lower Canada; for our lawa being different from the laws of thoae provincea, they will not be able to underatand and appreciate them as Lower Canadiana would. (Hear, hear.) And, moi cover, when thia new Court of Appeals is instituted, the appeal to England wUl not be abolished, so that we shall have one more means of producing delay and increasing the costs of suitors. Lower Canadians will 897 assuredly be less -satisfied with the decisions of a Federal Court of Appeals than with those of Her Majesty's Privy Council. In good truth, T do not see why this clause was imposed upon our delegates. I do not suppose that the delegates of the other pro vinoes can have very strongly insisted on it; but even if they had, I do not see why ours submitted to it. Of course our laws would not be understood in such a court, and most of the judges would render their decisions according to principles of jurisprudence unknown to Lower Canada. I am convinced that those Lower Canadian members who are in favor of Confederation are not in favor of a legislative union ; but have they not read the speech made at Toronto by the Hon. President of the Council (Hon. Mr. Brown) ? And did they not hear that of the honorable member for South Leeds (Mr. FoRD Jones), and the speeches of the members from Upper Canada generally, who nearly all spoke in favor of a legislative union, declaring that they accept Confeder ation as an instalment — a first step — towards a legislative union, which we shall have in a few years ? It is not necessary for me to discuss, on this occasion, the advantages or disadvantages of a legislative union, for all the members are perfectly well acquainted with the question ; but I am well convinced that the Confederation will be convert ed into a legislative union in a few years. I believe that the Hon. Minister of Finance and the hon. member for South Leeds were sincere in saying that, and that they were perfectly convinced of its truth. (Hear, hear.) It has been said, as a reason for hurrying on the passing of the measure, that if we wish for Confedeiation, now is the time to obtain it ; that if we wait another year it will be too late ; that the Lower Provinces are ready for Confederation, and that England is disposed to grant us a new Constitution. I believe that the Lower Provinces have proved to be a little slack in falfilling their engagements, and that the poUcy of the Government might therefore, with great safety, undergo some modification. (Hear, hear.) But if we must absolutely have Confederation, if there is no getting on without it, why was not an appeal made to the people last autumn, when the scheme was quite prepared? (Hear, hear.) For my part, I think that the want of the mea sure of Confederation is not so urgent as it is said to be, and that time should be taken to mature the plan. Does anybody believe 114 that the question of Confederation would have been thought of if the TachiS-Mao- DONALD Ministry had not been overthrown last summer ? No ; we should not have heard a word about it. (Hear, hear.) So that Confederation was not so very pressing at that time ! And if the want of it was so little felt in the Constitutional Committee appointed last year at the instance of the hon. member for South Oxford (Hon. Mr. Brown), that many members who this day vote themselves, and induce others to vote for Confederation, thought themaelvea au thorized to oppose it theu, and to vote against any proposition of the kind, I think that it ia not so needful to unite us by Confederation as we are told it is. I believe that if the adoption of the measure is urged forward so anxiously, it is only because there is fear of public opinion being roused to examine it, and fear especi ally of its not being accepted hereafter, wben the people have pronounced upon it. (Hear, hear.) And, I repeat, I believe in my heart, if the Government had not been overthrown on the 14th June last, we ahould never have heard a word about Confedera tion thia year. (Hear, hear.) Aa I said when I commenced speaking, I will not discuss every question connected wilh this scheme, because tbe Houae muat be tired of auch a long discusaion. I am bound, how ever, to declare again, that all the reaaona hitherto alleged in favor of Confederation, and all the magnificent picturea preaented to our view of the prosperity we are to enjoy under its auspices, have entirely failed to convince me that it is our bounden duty to adopt the resolutions laid before ua ; aud notwithstanding the eloquent speech made to us yeaterday by the hon. member for Vaudreuil (Mr. Harwood), I cannot say, as he does, that our posterity wUl be grateful to us for having opened the way for them to become members of the great empire of the Provinces of British North America. I shall say, on the contrary, what will be soon found out, that this Confederation is the ruin of our nationality in Lower Canada — that on the day when Confederation is voted, a death-blow will have been dealt on our nationa'ity, which was beginning to take root in the soil of British North America. (Hear, hear.) Our children, far from feel ing grateful for what we are now doing, wUl say that we made a great mistake when we imposed Confederation on them. (Cheers.) Mr. a. bi. smith— BIr. Speaker, I 898 cannot permit the vote to be taken on this important measure, without placing on re cord some of the reasona which induce me to give it my aupport, and to show why, to sorae extent, I hav^ changed my views on a few of the leading details of the scheme. When, air, the people of the first commercial city in Weatern Canada elected me to repre sent them on tbe floor of tbia House, I publicly stated that by every legitimate means I would oppose the conatruction of a railroad between Canada and the Lower Provincea — then, aa I do now, believing that in a coramercial point of view, that Intercolonial road would never pay, nor be even beneficial to Upper Canada. But at tho same time, air, I pledged myaelf to urge upon the Bliniatera of the Crown and this House tho vast importance to the country of an enlargement of our canals and the exten aion of our canal ayatem. Since then, BIr. Speaker, our political and commercial poai tions are very much changed. (Hear, hoar.) Threatened with the abrogation of the Reci procity treaty, a very serious losa will be entailed on Canada — if the threat be carried into execution — without any advantage ac cruing to the Uuited Statea. Indeed, from the nature of our commercial rela tiona with the United Statea — the natural reault of a trade foatered and carried on between the United States aud Canada for years — the abrogation of the Reciprocity treaty cannot be otherwise than attended with great distress and aerioua loss to the busineaa men of thia country. In addition to thia, air, we are threatened with the abro gation of the bonding syatem. Surely this IS much to be deplored. To every thinking mind a resort to such measures must seem absurd, and what could induce a people so thoroughly commercial as the people of tbe United States, to desire the abrogation of a treaty wbich, while it benefits us by per mitting the transit of goods through their territory, also benelita them largely by in creaaing their carrying trade, and fosters an immenae trade in the purchase of gooda of all deacriptions in bond — I muat declare my inability thoroughly to understand. But, however strange, Blr. Speaker, all this may seem to us, angry men, it must be admitted, frequently do indulge in atrange antica, and it need not surpriae us that a nation plunged in all the horrora of civil war should, under the excitement of some real or fancied wrong, do the same thing; as has been exem plified in the adoption of the deapotic system of passports, the abrogation of the Reciprocity treaty, and the annulling of the treaty for the extradition of criminals. Yet, BIr. Speaker, I cannot believe that the United States will abrogate either the one or the other, and I do not believe that the great and high-minded and honorable men who control the moneyed institutions of the United States will permit it. But, sir, it is only right on our part to do the next best, and only thing we can, to protect ouraelvea from the loss and inconve nience to our trade in winter, and that is, to build the Intercolonial Railroad — for we must have a highway to the ocean at all seasons for our mails and our merchandise. But, Mr. Speaker, while I admit that I have changed my mind with regard to the Intercolonial Railroad in voting for the scheme in which it is a prominent measure, I am more and more convinced of the par amount necessity of immediately aettirgabout the enlargement of our canala. We hear of schemes to connect the Georgian Bay with Ottawa by way of the French River route and the Trent route, and sir, perhaps- the only practicable and shortest route via Toronto and L-ake Simcoe ; but ali these only divert attention from what really cau and ought to be done, at a very trifling cost in co-nparison with any other soheme — I mean the enlargement of the canals we now have. (Hear, hear.) We have now nine feet of water in the St. Lawrence canala, and ten feet in the Welland, and the cost of increasing the depth ofthose canals to twelve feet, I am told Ly men competent to judge, would be trifling indeed — probably not over two or three millions of dollars. But if it cost as many pounds, I contend that it would not really cost the country one cent. If the toll of one cent per bushel on grain outward and a proportionate rate on inward merchandiae were enacted, the canals would not only be self-suataining, but would become a source of revenue to the provincea. Take for inatance, what I believe a amall eatimate, one hundred milliona of buahela outward, and an equal amount inward for other merchandiae, and you would have a revenue of two millions of dollars — a sum more than sufficient to pay interest and working expenses. Then, BIr. Speaker, see the impetus it would give to our inland shipping trade, if we could — and we could then do so — attract to the St. Law rence route the immense grain crops of the Great West. I might also refer, BI r. S feaker, to the ship-building suited to tbe wants of our country, and the immense advantage 899 shippers of grain -would have if their vessels proceeded to sea without the ruinous delay of transhipment, and the mixing and destroying of property round the wharves and storehouses at the different points at which grain, under the present system, has to be transhipped. I only wish I had the eloquence of the Hon. Attorney General West ; with the little practical knowledge I have of those things, I think I would be able to interest both westem and eastern members alike on the necessity of improving, and at once, this great and vital avenue to our future prosperity. (Hear, hear.) Now, sir, with regard to our defences ; while I do not object to some expenditure to please the English people if you choose ; I am of opinion our best dsfence is to culti vate with the United States friendly com mercial and political relations, and then, sir, I do not fear that if we do what is right, they will do us any wrong. Sound and honorable conduct on our part is of more strength than all the forts of m.asonry or earthwork that we shall ever see. (Hear, hear.) Mr. Speaker, the prompt and manly course that our Government haa pur sued with regard to the Alien Bill, and call ing outa portion of our voluntnera to repreaa raiding and piracy, will entitle them to the gratitude of every right-minded man in thia country. Sir, had they commenced to build forta and arm ahips, instead of the manly and honorable courae whioh they did puraue, they would, in my opinion, have found uso for their volunteers and their forta too; while I hope that in a very short time they wUl not require either. (Hear, hear.) I wish now to say a few words about thia great Confederation, from which ao much ia ex pected, commercially and politically. I am of opinion that the advantages will be very evenly divided — they taking our grain and flour, while we buy their fish and oil. Wo will have an open market for our manufactures with them, and they wUl have the aarae for theira with ua, so that it is a mere mat ter of who gives most. But at present the Maritime Provioces import from the United States flour and grain, if I am correct, to the amount of three or four millions of dol lars' worth per annum, which our political and more intimate relations would in a more or leas degree attract to Canada ; and I have no doubt our merchanta would know how to turn those advantagea to account. Mr. Speaker, these are some of the reasons why I gave this Confederation scheme my hearty support, believing that the honorable gentlemen who have brought this treaty before this Houae have no other motive, and can have no other motive, but the pro motion of the beat intereata of thia our adopted land. (Hear, hear.) I think the soheme aa propoaed ia, aa near as it can be, fair to all the provincea Before I close, I would just say a word with reference to the course pursued by my respected and honora ble colleague from Toronto AV^est (Mr. J. Macdonald). I have no heaitation in saying that I am confident that he is aincere in his oppoaition, and he may be right ; but I am not so sure that he represents the wishes of hia constituents. I attended a large and influ ential meeting of the citizens of the city of Toronto before the meeting of this House, and a gentleman there proposed that the scheme ahould not bo carried into effect until it waa referred to the people, but he could not get even a seconder to his resolu tion. For myself, I feel juatified by the reault of that meeting in aupporting this acherae throughout. The meeting waa ex tensively advertiaed — all had an opportunity to attend, and both sides of the question were ably argued. I ahall record my vote for the scheme, and shall be happy to aee it carried into early conauramation. (Cheera.) BIr. SHANLY said — In riaing to addreas the Houae on tho great queation under debate, it ia not my intention to go minutely into the aubject; for after all that haa been aaid, and ths great length to which the debate has dragged on, I oannot expect to be able to fix the attention of my hearers for very long, even were the subject one to which I could speak authoritatively, instead of being, as it is, one that the ablest and most statesmanlike among us must in a great meaaure accept upon faith — truating to the future to develope the excellencies claimed for it on the one hand, or to eatabliah the faults that are charged on it on the other. But though I do not pretend to be able to say anything new on the subject, or to throw any light on the uncertain future that lies before us, still I would be unwUling that in, perhapa, the most important division ever taken in a Colonial Legislature, my vote should be recorded without my first stating some, at all events, of the reasona that actuate me in voting aa I intend to vote. One feature has been strikingly observable in the debate, and that is, that from first to 9oo last, as far as it has yet gone, no new thing has been offered or suggested. The pro gramme of Confederation stands now exactly as it waa preaented in a quasi private form to the representatives of the people of this country some four months ago. The promoters of the scheme have added nothing to, taken nothing from the original bill of fare, and they have as good as told us, frankly and squarely, that they would add nothing to, take nothing from it if they could. The opponents of tho project on the other hand, while giving it a sweeping condem nation, offer nothing, auggeat nothing to replace that which they ao summarily reject. Nothing is easier than to find fault with other men'a work ; it ia a talent that we all poaaeaa, and that few of ua ever think to hide under a bushel. For myaelf, though in favor of the scheme, being equally at a loss with other honorable membera to say anything new upon it, I, too, will have to tum to my fault-finding instincts in the first instance. The honorable member for Mon treal Centre (Hon. BIr. Rose) has said in his able speech tbat if we could not improve on the project, we should forbear to find fault with it. I do not agree with him. On the contrary, I conceive that even though ap proving of the resolutions as a whole, it ia the duty of membera apeaking to the question to point out and place on record the faults that strike them as likely to require correc tion by and by. And first of all — coming to discuaa Confederation from my own stand point — I would say that I have long looked forward to the time when the whole of the British North American Provinces would be united under one stable government ; believ ing, as I alwaya have believed ever since I came to know thia country well, that we pos aeaa all the elementa, in natural reaources and endowmenta, and in diatinctive geographical poaition, to form the ground-work of a power on thia continent. I feared, nevertheless, when the project was foreabadowed here laat year, that the time was not yet fuU for bringing about the desired combination. I feared that the almost total separation, poli tical and aocial, which had heretofore exiated between ourselves and the provinces below, might possibly cause a premature union to result in permanent estrangement. It ap peared to me that we should firat have cultivated social and commercial relations with our kindred on the seaboard before uniting, for better for worse, in a poUtical alliance. Theae were the views which I took of the Confederation project when it was so suddenly sprung upon us at the close of last session ; and I confess that I still entertain grave apprehensions that we may be about to come together upon too short an acquaint ance, before we have an opportunity of knowing one another, and learning to adapt ourselves the one to the other. In this con sists my broad and general objection, not to the principle of Confederation, but to the hastiness with which it is sought to be car ried out — threatening, as I fear, to mar our destiny in striving to overtake it. To the details of the scheme itself I hold one strong and marked objection, which I desire to record, though I know that this is not the time or place for remedying defective detaila. I allude to the Federal feature of the pro ject. I own to a rooted dialike, if not to the Federal principle or Federal theory, at all events to the practical results of the working of the system; and neither the warm eulogium which the Hon. President of the Council (Hon. BIr. Brown) has passed upon tbe system as illustrated by its work ing in the United States, nor the milder defence of the system pronounced by my hon. friend the Hon. Minister of Agricul ture (Hon. BIr. McGee), has served to clothe it in other than most distasteful colors in my sight. However the Federal system of govemment may have tended to promote the material growth of the United States — and it would not be safe to assert that such a country, with such a people, would have failed to attain to early greatness under any form of free government — how ever, I repeat, the Federal form of govern ment may have promoted the material progreas of the United States, it does not seem to me to have elevated, politically speaking at all events, the moral standard of the people of the United States. One most marked and evil result of the syatem has been to produce politicians rather than statesmen — swarms of the former to a very limited proportion of the latter ; and I would much fear, if we are to see Canada redivided, that the petty parliaments of the separated provinces will prove to be but preparatory schools for that class of politicians who take to politics as toa trade, and whose after-presence in the greater Assembly—to which they would all aspire — would serve to depress the standard of political worth, to lower the tone of poli tical morality, which we might hope to see prevail in a Confederated Parliament of British North America under a purely legis- 901 lative union, which is the description of union into which I trust to see the present imperfect Constitution, or proposed Constitu tion, eventually nierge. For the reasons stated I have looked upon this Federal scheme of union with dislike and distrust. But the promoters of the scheme, most of whom, it must be admitted, have appeared here rather as its apologists than as its upholders, tell us that it is a necessity of circumstances, an unavoidable consequence of difference in language, laws and local interests between Upper and Lower Canada on the one part, and an absence of commu nity of local interests between us here in Canada and the .Blaritime Provinces on the other hand. The latter part of the argument is undoubtedly correct ; but, admitting the whole of the premises, for argument sake, the other question naturally suggests itself: Is Confederation, even in the faulty form in which it is laid before us, to be accepted as a likely remedy for the evils under which we now labor in Canada, and as a possible antidote against the greater evils which threaten us in the near future ? I would anawer that queation in my own way, and from my own point of view by and by ; meanwhile I would ask to be permitted to say a word in respect of the financial phase ofthe Confederation project; and upon that point I feel it difficult to agree with my hon. friend the Hon. Finance Minister, in assum ing that the joint expenses of the two local governments here in Canada may be kept so much below what we are now paying for our single form of government, as to leave a wide margin towards defraying, if not wholly to cover, our proportion of the expenses of the General Government. I can hardly venture to take such a couleur-de-rose view of our position as that. I will not weary the House with estimates and figures, which, after all, can be but problematical and conjectural ; but I would venture to predict that under our new condition of existence, with its quasi national obligations, our expenditure must increase largely beyond the present limits that we have hitherto been accustomed to. I believe that to be an inevitable result of the Confedera tion ; but I also believe that there is a future looming upon us — Confederation or no Con federation — which will involve us in duties and responsibilities which we must not shirk-^which, in fact, we cannot shirk if we would. The signs of the times are not to be mistaken, and I fear we have an expensive future before us for some time to come. But if, in bringing about a union of all these provinces, wc were in reality laying the sure foundation of social, commercial, and politi-- cal prosperity — if we felt that in reality wo were laying the ground-work, as it were, of a new nation on this continent — we might justly, along with the great benefits we be queath to posterity — benefits which we, in our generation, cannot hope to enjoy in their fulness — bequeath to them also the financial burden which would seem to be the ordained and inevitable accompaniment of progressive nationality. And if I felt assured in my own mind that this measure of Confederation, faulty as it is, promised even a fair chance for successfully solving a great political difficulty, I for one would not fear to take my share of tbe responsibility of increasing the ex penses of government and adding to the debt of the country. I have alluded to the expenaes attendant on Confederation as being, to a certain extent, conjectural and problematical ; but there is one item of its cost which is not of that character. The Intercolonial Railway is a vital part of the Confederation project — the latter oould have no useful, practical existence without the former. As a commercial undertaking, the Intercolonial Railway presents no attrac tions, it offers no material for a flattering prospectus ; we could not invite to it the atten tion of European capitalists as presenting an eligible investment for their surplus funds. But for the eatabliahing of thoae intimate social and commercial relations indispensable to political unity between ourselves and the sister provinces, the railway is a necessity. It will, therefore, have to be undertaken and paid for purely as a national work, and it is right that the people of Canada should know and understand in the outset what the pro bable addition to our public debt would be in connection with the 68th resolution. I do not think the proportion of the cost of the railway falUng to the share of Canada can be much short of what we have already given towards the construction of the Grand Trunk Railway — at all events from twelve to fourteen millions of dollars. If it shall come about that the sense of the people is to be taken on the Confederation question, the Intercolonial RaUway feature in the plan wUl prove the most difficult to reconcile the people to, and especially the people of Upper Canada. In my own constituency — and I 902 may venture to assert that there are not many honorable members in the House stronger in their constituencies than I am — if I were to come before my electors purely on the Confederation issue, and as the advocate of Confederacy, I know that denunciation of the 68th resolution would be a tower of strength in the hands of any anti-Confederate opponent who might choose to measure swords with me in the electoral field ; but I would be prepared to face that difficulty, and in the fullest confidence that I could do so successfully and triumph antly, if satisfied that I could — and I think I could — show to my people that the scheme of Confederation, even with the In tercolonial Railway inseparately interwoven in its web, is esaential to our existence aa a Britiah people. (Hear, hear.j Reverting to the objectionable featurea I have alluded to in the reaolutiona before ua, I have aaked myaelf thia queation — la Confederation, aa offered to ua, faulty, as the plan may be likely to work well for the future of the country ? Is it likely to prove a satiafactory solution of the very grave political difficul ties that beset ua ? It would be in vain to attempt to conceal from ouraelves that Canada ia at thia moment approaching the moat critical period of her hitherto exiatence. Threatened with aggrcaaion from without, we are not in a gratitying condition of proa perity within, let blue booka and census retums aay what they will to the contrary. Great ani momentoua eventa aro tranapiring juat beyond our frontier — eventa which have already aerioualy and injurioualy affected ua commercially, and which muat inevitably, in aome way or other, affect ua politically. A people until recently devoted ouly to indus trial purauita and the development of their oountry, have auddenly expanded into a great military power. To uae their own expreaaion, the Americana are " making hiatory very faat," and it ia impoasible that that eventful hiatory can be manufactured in a territory separated from our own by little more than an imaginary line, without our having eventually acme part in its pages, for good or for evil. In fact we cannot conceal from ouraelvea that aomo great change is impending over the destiniea of our country— a change that will preaent itself to us in aome form or otber, and that before. long, without its being in our power to avert, though it m.ny be in our power to ahape it. There ia faat growing up in England a feel ing of want of confidence in Canada. We see it in the tone of the press, in the par hamentary debates and elaewhere. We are told that we are giving more trouble to the Blother Country than we are worth. A simi lar feeling of want of confidence, amounting almost to contempt, has always prevailed towards us in the United States. The ignorance of everything relating to Canada — of our political and social condition — of our resources and our commerce — our growth and our progress — that exists among our kindred across the border, cannot fail to have surprised those who have mingled much among them, and if not altogether creditable to them is certainly very humi liating to us ; but, great aa the ignoranee is there, it is fully equalled by that which exists with respect to Canada, and all per taining to Canada, among our nearer and dearer kindred in the old world. What can we do to remedy this unfortunate and humi liating state of things ? What can we do to inspire confidence in us abroad; to command respect; to defy contempt? These appear to me to be the practical questions with which we have to deal. We are plainly told by England that we must rely more upon our own resources in the future than we bave done in the past, and it is right aod just we should do so. It appears to me that there are just three statea of politioal exiatence poasible for ua here, when we emerge from the chrysalia-form in which we have hitherto existed. Firat, there ia the attempt to stand alone as a aeparate nation ality pn thia continent — that ia one alterna tive. Secondly, there ia the proapect held out to ua in the reaolutions — namely, a union of all the British North American Coloniea, under the flag of England, becoming more and more every year a homogeneous British people, and building up a consolidated British power on this continent. The laat and inevitable alternative, if we reject the other two, ia exactly that atated by my honorable friend from South Lanark (BIr. Morris)— abaorption into the United States. It ia in vain to shut our eyes to that fact, or that the time is at hand when we will have to make our selection. I know that the latter alternative — and I can speak from as thorough an acquaintance with the wants, fodlings and wishes of tho people of Canada as any honorable gentleman in thia [louse poaaeaaes — would be most dis taateful to the gieat maas of the people of this country. (Loud cheers.) To myself personally, it would be so distasteful that it 903 would amount to a sentence of expatriation, rupturing the ties and associations ofa quarter of a century. (Hear, hear.) When my hon orable friend the Hon. Attorney General for Upper Canada introduced the reaolutions to the House, he gave us to understand that the question, or the details of the question were scarcely to be considered as open for debate. He told us plainly and squarely that the project must be viewed as a treaty already sealed and signed between the con tracting parties, and would have to be accepted as a whole or rejected as a whole. I felt the force of the situation then, and when the same honorable gentleman came down here a few days since, and, in reference to the new phase of difficulty resulting from the turn taken by the elections in New Brunswick, announced that prompt and vigorous action was neceysary, in a somewhat different direc tion from that originally contemplated, I felt the force of the situation even more fully than at first. (Hear, hear.) And I would here ask to be allowed to digress a moment from the main question. T wish to take this opportunity of saying that I never had more than a sort ofa half-confidence io the Gov ernment as now conatituted. When the leadera ofthe Conservative party, with whom I have always acted, saw fit last year to make certain poUtical combinations which, even they muat admit, astonished and startled the country — combinations resulting in the pre sent Coalition Blinistry — I claimed that I and every member of the Conservative party, in this House or_ out of it, who chose to dissent from the' courae adopted by our leaders, had a right to hold ourselves absolved from all party ties and obligations whatever. I claimed then as I claim now, that from thenceforward I owed no political allegiance, no party fealty, to any man or any body of men on the floor of this House. In electing to adopt for myself the anomalous and bybrid position of an "independent member," 1 knew full well that it waa to " burn my ^ P." — *° "^^^ away Trom me all chances of political advancement; but I never had political aspirations that warred with my own notions of political honor and consistency, or with my love of personal independence. But when great changes in our political relations we taking place; when all feel, as I be heve all do feel, that a great and momentous event is impending; when, under such eironmstances, my hon. friend the Honorable Attorney General for Upp-r Canada announ- | ces, as he has done, in a frank, bold, manly and statesmanlike raanner, prompt and vig orous policy on the part of the Government in dealing with an unlooked-for difficulty— I allude to the difficulty growing out of the New Brunswick elections — I will teU that hon. gentleman that he and his colleagues may now — and always when boldly grappling with the political emergencies of the country — count on a cordial, eamest and admiring sup port from me. (Hear, hear.) Without further diacussion or debate, I caat my vote for and my lot with the Confederation, and this I do in the fulleat confidence and belief that, how ever faulty may be certain of the details of the scheme, and however awkward it may be to work out some of its provisions suc cessfully, tbe resources of the people of these provinces, their innate adaptation for self- government, will be found fully equal to overcoming all the difficulties and obstacles that may beset their path. I fully believe that the faults which I now object to in the plan of Confederation will, like the diaeaaoa incident to childhood, grow out of our system as we advance in political strength and stature, and that when another decade has passed over us we will be found a strong, united British people, ready and able, in peace or in war, to hold our own upon this continent. (Cheers, j It being six o'clock, the Speaker left the chair. After the recess, BIr. shanly, resuming hia remarka, said — Before the House rose, I had expres sed my belief that the people of this country would be found equal to any emergency that might arise in working out the Conatitution embraced in the resolutions, and would prove themselves capable of altering or amending it until it worked effectually and well for the benefit of the whole country. And in making the choice which I know the people of this country will make — aa between annexation to the United Statea and connection witb Great Britain — as between republicaniam and monarchy — aa between Canada our country, or Canada our state — I believe they will be choosing that which will best advance the material pros pects, and best ensure the future happinesa and greatneaa of the country. If we were to be abaorbed into the republic, and become a atate of the union, that would in no way relieve us of the great undertakings that are before us for the improvement and de- 90* -velopment of our resources. We would still have a large debt on our hands, of which, unaided, we would have to bear the burden ; our canals and other public works would be treated, not as national, but as state enterprises, and the expense of en larging or extending them would have to be charged upon a diminished revenue, for nearly the whole of the revenue we now raise from cuatoms and excise would go, not to the improvement of this state of Canada, but would be poured into the coffers ofthe General Govemment at Washington. I can not understand how any patriotic Canadian, even of those who regard political matters from a material point of view only, can ad vocate annexation to the United States. I be lieve there are many persons in Canada who, though entertaining feelings of true loyalty to the Crown of England, imagine that in some way or other — they cannot exactly tell how — annexation would bring about an extraordinary and sudden state of prosperity. I differ entirely, even in the material and practi cal points of view, from the theorists and visionaries who entertain so false a convic tion. How, I would ask, is this country, with diminished means at its command, to be enabled to carry out those great works through which alone it could hope to become great, but the ways and means for construct ing or improving which still puzzle our financiers ? I have always been of opinion, since I first came to ponder carefully the future of Canada, that that future does not depend so much upon our lands as upon our waters. The land — the terra firma — of Canada is not inviting to those who have tilled the soil of Great Britain or explored the vast fertile plains to the west of Lake Blichigan. Our country is just on a par with the northern part of the State of New York, and with the States of Vermont and New Hampshire in respect of climatic condi tiona and conditiona of aoil. But we poaaeas one imraenae advantage over thoae countriea, an advantage which givea us a diatinctive poaition on thia continent — the poaseaaion of the noble river which flows at our feet. It is through that river and our great chain of inland waters thatthe deatiny of thia country is to be worked out.- But we cannot fulfll our deatiny — or the deatiny of this country rather — hy standing idle in the raarket place ; by, as one honorable member hoa auggeated. doing nothing to improve our natural highwaya or create artificial ones, truating to fortune or to Providence for the development of our resources. I believe that we have a high and honorable des tiny before us, but that it has to be worked out by hard toU and large expenditure ; and we certainly would not be in a better condi tion to work it out were we to be united to a country that would at once absorb four -fifths of the revenue on which we now depend for our very existence. The improvement of our internal navigation is the first great undertaking we should consider, whether for commercial purposes or for purposes of de fence. And as regards the prompting of our commercial interest in the improvement of our navigation, what advantage, I would aak, could we expect to gain by becoming a atate of the American union ? 'There ia not one of the aeaboard states but would be in every way interested in diverting the western trade from our into their own channela, and in endeavoring to obstruct the improvements calculated to attract that trade to the St. Lawrence. The Weatern States, doubtless, would have intereata in common with ua, but they are not in a poaition to render ua mate rial aid for the construction of our works, being themselves borrowers for the means of carrying out their own internal improve ments. I believe, then, that even from a material point of view, every unprejudiced thinker must admit that our future pros perity and importance lie in preserving our individuality, and in making the moat of our heritage for our own special advancement. (Hear, hear.) I feel quite certain that nine- tenths of the people of Canada would not be deterred from taking their chance aa a nation through the fear that they may some day have to atrike a blow in defence of their country ; and of all else, whether of reality or of sentiment, that should be dear to a brave and loyal people. We stand here the envied poaaeaaors of, take it all in all, the greateat river in the world; the keepera of one ofthe great portals to the Atlantic; and I trust that Canadians will never be found to yield posaeaaion of theii'heritage till wrested from them by force ! And that muat be a force, they may rest aaaured, not merely suf ficient to over-match tbe people of these provincea, but all the power of the Empire beaidea. (Hear, hear.) Now, though I have aaid I would not enter into details, I must claim the attention of the House for a few moments longer, while I touch upon one very important point. I refer to the 69th resolution, foreshadowing the colonizing by Canada, and at the expense of Canada, 905 of the North-West territory. There is not in this House one hon. member who appreciates more fully than I do the great natural resources and great future value of that territory ; but I am not of that class of sanguine and visionary politicians who would risk losing all by grasping too much, and in the vast dominion extending from Lake Su perior to the shores of Newfoundland, the Confederacy will have ample scope for the energy and enterprise of her people for a long time to come. The North-West terri tory, from its geographical position as regards us, ia very difficult 'of acceas. A broad tract of barren and inhoapitable country inter venes between Lake Superior and the fertile plaina of the Red River and the Saskatche wan, which for seven months out of the twelve are, in fact, wholly inaccessible to us save through a foreign country, rendering it next to impossible for us alone to effect close connection with and colonization of that country. We cannot jump all at once from the position of colonists to that of colonizers. That great territory can only be developed, colonized and preserved to us by the exercise of that fostering care which the Empire has ever bestowed upon her colonies in their infancy. The Hon. President of the Council (Hon. Mr. Brown), in the course of the debate, said he hoped to see the day when our young men would go forth from among us to settle the North-West territory. I harbor no such wish. On the contrary, one of the fondest hopes I cherish as a result of Confederation is, that it will 80 attract capital and enterprise to the pro vinces, so tend to develope our internal resources, as to offer to the youth of the oountry a field for the exercise of that laudable energy and ambition which now cauae so many of them to leave their own hearths and cast their lot with strangers. Oneoftliegreatestills that Canada now suffers from is, that the young men born and brought up in her midst look abroad for their future, and bestow their energies and talents on another land ; and, although an immigrant myself, I know and admit that a man born and brought up here is worth any two immi grants for the arduous task of clearing and settling what remains to us of the public domain. I hope and trust that the Confede ration of the Provinces will create sufficient inducements to keep the young men of the country at home. (Hear, hear.) It is in that hope that I support the measure. I trust at the same time that the great North- 115 West territory will be preserved to our flag, and tbat, fostered by the Mother Country, it will in time become great and populous, and finally extend the British American nation to the shores of the Pacific. It would be unfair, at this late stage of the debate, to enter further into details. I promised that I would not do so. With details, indeed, it has all along appeared to me we had little to do now. If the project as a whole be good, surely means will be found, as we go on, to remedy objectionable details. With all its defects — and I admit there are many defects — there never was a written Constitution but had its defects — I feel confident that the general design set forth in the resolutions meets with the approval of a large majority of the people of Canada at all events ; and it would be an insult to the sound common sense of a people that have so long proved themselves capable of judging for them selves and of governing themselves, to suppose them incapable of adjusting, from time to time, as occasion arises, the minor details or defects of a system of government to which they have resolved on according a fair trial. (Hear, hear.) And now, Mr. Speaker, what I had to say on this important subject of Confederation I have said. I promiaed that I would not weary the Houae by entering into details ; I trust that I have not done so; but I may be permitted to express a hope— a hope founded in a deep and abiding belief — that the people of these provinces are and will prove themselves equal to the great under taking that ia before them ; that aided by all the commercial power of Britain in time of peace, by all her military and maritime power in war, should war unhappily come about, we will ahow to the world that we are not unworthy acions of the noble races of which we come, but that we are compe tent to successfully work out to a great end the taak that ia intruated to ua — the noblest and worthiest task that can be intrusted to an intelligent and enlightened people — that of making for themselves a name and a place among the nations of the earth ; that of building up — to borrow a quotation aptly introduceti into his able speech by my hon. friend from South Lanark — a quotation from the speech of a renowned British statesman, when speaking on a great colonial question — that of building up " one of those great monuments with which England marks the records of her deeds — not pyramids and obelisks, but states and commonwealths, 906 whose history shall be written in her lan guage." (Cheers.) Mr. scoble — If I were to consult my own feelings or my convenience, Mr. Speaker, I should certainly not rise at this advanced period of the debate, to offer any observations on the great question which has now been so long under diacua.aion ; but having some what altered the opinions that I entertained of the scheme submitted to the House by the Government, I feel it necessary to make , a few remarks in explanation and vindi cation of the vote I intend to give. In approaching the consideration of the ques tion, I shall divest myself, as far as posaible, of all party predilectiona, of all personal preferences, and of all aectional jealousies, and shall endeavor to discuss it upon ita merits, fairly and impartially — first, with reference to the great difficulties which un happily exist between Upper and Lower Canada ; and, secondly, in relation to the pro posed union of the British North American Provinces for purposes and objects common to them all. These branches of the main question, or rather these two questions, are not necessarily connected, and may, there fore, be discussed separately; for it is possible we may not be able immediately to secure the union of the provinoes, and in tihat case we shall still have to deal with the difficul ties of our own position, and try, if possible, to flnd a satisfactory solution for them. (Hear, hear.) And flrst, sir, with reference to the difficulties which have so long dis tracted and disturbed us, and which hitherto we have in vain attempted to remove. If we may believe the hon. member for Brome (Mr. Dunkin), whom I regret to see is not in his place, the difficulties to which I have referred are imaginary, not real. He told us, in his elaborate and exhaus tive speech, that in Lower Canada the Catholio and non-Catholic, the English and French-speaking populations, were liv ing in the most entire harmony with each other ; and this statement was confirmed by the honorable and learned gentleman the Hon. Atty. Gen. East (Hon. Mr. Cartier), who declared that so great was that har mony, that he enjoyed the confidence not only of the Catholic, but the Protestant sec tion of the community, and in fact repre sented them both. Now, sir, I am not disposed to question the fact proclaimed by these honorable gentlemen; on the contrary, I fully believe it, and ascribe the circum stance to their having common objects to pursue, and common interests to maintain. (Hear, hear.) But the hon. member for Brome went further. He affected to believe that no difficulties of any moment existed between Upper and Lower Canada, and that any dissatisfaction that had been manifested by tbe upper section of the province, might be easily removed without resorting to an organic change in our present Constitution. At least, so I understood the hon. gentle man. On this point I am at issue with him, for I believe those difficulties to be of a most formidable character, and. that they threaten at no distant day, unless they be adjusted, the peace and the prosperity of the pro vince — perhaps its disintegration — perhaps its annexation to the United States. Every lover of his country must deprecate such results, and ought to strive to prevent them, or either of them. The House and the country will sustain me in the view I take of the danger of our position, and conse quently of the importance of the measure now under consideration, as one means of removing it. (Hear, hear.) If, sir, we can ascertain the true cause of our difficulties, we shall not have to seek far or long for their remedy. In what do they originate? Some tell us in difference of nationality, of religi ous creed, of civil institutions, and of language. I am not disposed to ignore these, or to deny that they may be made to play a conspicuous part in the non-settlement of sectional ques tions; but I utterly deny that they are the cause of our difficulties. Take the question of nationality, for instance. Those among us who are of French extraction may be justly proud of their ancestry, of their traditions, and of their history. They can boast oif the mighty empire which those of kindred blood with themselves have founded in Europe, and of the vast influence which it exerts over the civilization and p»litica of the world ; but as they are no longer subject to France, but are within the allegiance of the British Crown, and enjoy all the fran- chiaes of Britiah freemen, it appeara to me that the queation of French nationality dia- appears, whilst that of origin only reraains ; and that now the only nationality that can be recognized among ua is a British nationality, unless indeed we are pre pared to sever our connection with the parent atate, commence a new nationality of our own, or merge our political existence in the neighboring republic. But who, sir, 907 among us is prepared for either of these alternatives ? Am I to suppoae that the people of this province of French origin are less loyal to the British Crown than those of Anglo-Saxon descent? Am I to beUeve that were the opportunity afforded them, they would reunite themselves with France ? These questions, I am assured, they will answer indignantly in the negative. At aU events, of this I am satisfied, and I be lieve they are satisfied, that under no govern ment in the world can they enjoy so large an amount of civil, political and religious Uberty as under British sway. The Scotch have their history and their traditions as well as the French, but where is the Scotchman now tbat is not proud of his alliance with England, or that would wish to dissever the connection, though thereby he might regain his parliament or his king? I believe, that every enlightened French-Canadian is ofthe same opinion, whatever hot-blooded and hair- brained demagogues may assert to the con trary. (Hear, hear.) Take the question of rehgious creeds. These are said to present an insurmountable obstacle in the way of the settlement of our sectional difficulty. If, sir, we had established in this province a non-Catholic or Protestant creed, to which all would be required to subscribe, or if not to subscribe, at least to support by eompul- Bory taxation, then, sir, I could conceive that difference of religious opinion might operate in the way alleged ; but as among us the most complete religious liberty is en joyed — yes, a larger amount of religious liberty than Catholic Christians are allowed in France — I can see no valid ground for the supposition that they would suffer in this respect, or that they ever had the shadow of a reason to fear that in doing an act of jus tice to Upper Canadians they would be doing injustice to themselves. (Hear, hear.) We are, aU of us, too much and too deeply interested in the question of religious liberty, to trespass on the rights of conscience, or to allow of state interference in matters of such transcendent importance as our relations to the Divine Being, and the service and wor ship we owe to Him. Differing as we do in our creed and modes of worship, religious equaUty is aecessary to the peace and good order of government, as well as to the life of religion itself among the people. We thus become the guardians of the most precious of all liberties, the right to worship God according to the dictates of our conscience, without let or hindrance from each other or thestate. (Hear, hear.) But it is said that the civil institutions of Lower Canada would suffer, were Upper Canada allowed a repre sentation in the Legislature and the Govern ment in proportion to its population. I marvel, sir, much that such a difficulty as this ahould ever have been started. It is well known that the policy of Great Britain has ever been of the most liberal and com prehensive character in relation to matters of this kind. Trace her history in connection with her conquest in any part of the world ; and when, except with the consent of the people, has she imposed upon them the body of her staiutelaws? Her Constitution and her common law of right belong to the peoples subjected to her sway, and these are the guardians of personal and public liberty ; but beyond these she allows the largest free dom in respect of customs, the peculiar insti tutions, and the administration of civil justice throughout the length and breadth of her dominions. However desirable the assimUation of the laws between Upper and Lower Canada may be, uniformity would be purchased at too dear a rate, if it led to dis satisfaction among any considerable class of the people. Time may accomplish what force might destroy. As an EngUshman, whilst I believe our laws, in the main, as well as our whole judicial system, are the best in tbe world, I do not believe either the one or the other to be perfect. To improve them by importing into them whatever is more excellent in otber systems, is the dictate of common sense, and will always have my hearty concurrence. The institu tions of Lower Canada are perfectly safe in the keeping of Lower Canadians, for practic ally nothing could be gained by Upper Canadians in changing them, supposing they had the power to do so, which they neither have nor desire to have. (Hear, hear.) And then, sir, with respect to language, I can hardly suppose Lower Canadians serious when they imagine that any desire exists to destroy the use among them of their mother- tongue. It may do well enough to excite a prejudice among ignorant people to say so, but surely among those that are intelligent it can have no effect. It remains with French-Canadians themselves to determine whether they will abandon the use of their native tongue, and adopt ours, or not. They are free to use either, or both, at pleasure. If sir, in Lower Canada the English are 908 compelled to learn the French language for business purposes and for social intercourse, and in Upper Canada the French are com pelled to learn English for similar purposes, surely that need not be a subject for regret to the one or to the other, inasmuch as both will gain by it. And this further advantage will accrue to those skilled in both languagea: they will have access to the literature, the philosophy and the science of the two fore most nations of the world. No attempt will be made to ignore the French language among us, so long as thoae who prefer it to all othera shall deem it worthy of preaerv ation. (Hear, hear.) Give the people of Upper and Lower Canada a common object to pursue, and common interests to sustain, and all questions of origin, and creed, and institutions, and language will vanish in the superior end to be attained by their cloaer union among ouraelves, or by their wider union with other colonists under the proposed scheme of Confederation. (Hear, hear.) The great difficulty under which we labor, and which we seek to overcome, is a political and nof a aocial one. It haa its root in the Constitution impoaed upon the province in 1841 by the Imperial Government and Legislature. That Constitution was founded on injuatice to Lower Canada, and ita fruit, as was then foreaeen, haa produced the grossest injustice to Upper Canada. Had the principle of repreaentation baaed on popula tion been then adopted, and the Une which separated Upper from Lower Canada been obliterated, except for judicial purposes, we should now be working harmoniously together, inatead of seeking organic changes in the Constitution, in order to preaerve ourselves from revolution and anarchy. (Hear, hear.) The honorable member for Bagot (Hon. Mr. Laframboise), in his speech, quoted largely from the report of Lord Durham, to show that that diatin guiahed nobleman waa prejudiced againat Lower Canadiana, and waa indiapoaed to do them juatice. By selecting bere and there paaaages from that able document, the hon. gentleman gave a colorable appearance to his accusation, but nothing more. I deem it an act of juatice to Lord Durham to supplement the extracts read by tbe hon. member, by further extracts which will ahew that His Lordahip waa governed by exact and impartial justice in the measures which he recommended to heal the divisions which then existed in Canada. With ihe prescient sagacity of a true statesman, he said : — Aa the mere amalgamation of the two Housea of Assembly of the two provincea would not be advisable, or give a due abare of representation to each, a parliamentary commission should be appointed for the purpose of forming the electoral divisions, and determining the number of mem bera to be returned on the principle of giving repreaentation, aa near aa may be, in proportion to population. Where, I ask, is the injustice of this recom mendation ? Lower Canada had then the larger population, and waa entitled to the larger representation in the united Legis lature. But the Imperial authorities based the Constitution which they gave to Canada, not on representation according to numbers, but on equality or equal numbera of repre sentatives for the two sections of the pro vince, and the result we bave to deplore this day. His Lordship goes on to say : — I am averse to every plan that haa been pro- poaed for giving an equal number of members to the two pro-vincea, in order to attain the tempor ary end of outnumbering the French, because I think the aame object will he attained without violating the principlea of representation, and without any such appearance of injustice in the scheme aa would aet public opinion, both in Eng land and America, strongly against it ; and he- cause, when emigration shall have increased the English population in Upper Canada, the adoption of such a principle would operate to defeat the very purpose it is intended to serve. It appears to me that any such electoral management, found ed on present provincial diviaions, would tend to defeat the purpoaea of union, and perpetuate the idea of diaunion. These are words of wisdom, but they were not listened to at home, and the conse quences have been lamentable. We find Upper and Lower Canada in a state of antagonism, and collision imminent. We find the Legislature brought to a dead-lock, and our public men driven to their wit's end. All this was foreseen by Lord JDuR- HAM and provided for in his admirable sug gestions for the future government of this important province. And then, in reference to the peculiar institutions of Lower Ca nada, ita religion and ita lawa, he aaid : — I certainly ahould not like to aubject the French-Canadians to the rule of the identical English minority with which they have been so long contending ; but from a majority emanating from ao much more extended a source, I do not think they would have any oppreasion or injustice to fear ; and in this case the far greater part ofthe majority never having been brought into collision, would regard them with no animosity that would warp their natural sense of equity. 'The endow- 909 ments of the Catholio Church in Lower Canada, and the existence of all ita preaent laws, until altered by the united legislature, might be aecured by stipulations aimilar to those adopted in the union hetween England and Scotland. I do not think that the subaequent hiatory of Britiah legis lation need incline us to believe that the nation -which haa the majority in a popular legialature is hkely to use its power to tamper very haatily with the laws of the people to which it is united. Such were the opiniona and such the basis of that great scheme of union which Lord Dur ham contemplated, and which he aimed to secure to Upper and Lower Canada. It con sisted of two parts : representation based on population in the Legislature ; and guarantees thatthe pecuUar institutions of Lower Canada should be protected, and her rights respected. But His Lordship had larger views before him than the union of Upper and Lower Canada. He was anxious that aU the British colonies in North America should be consolidated under one government. When His Lordship received his commission from the British Crown, he was strongly in favor of the Federal principle in its application to the then state of Upper and Lower Canada ; but a more pro found study of the question when in this country, and from consultation with the lead ing men in tbe several American Colonies, he arrived at the conclusion that a Legislative would be preferable to a Federal union of those colonies. The change in his opinion is thus stated in the extracts from his report, with which I shaU now trouble the House. By a legislative union he means " a complete incorporation of the provinces included in it under one Legislature exercising universal and sole legislative authority over aU of them, exactly in the same manner as the Parliament legislates alone for the whole of the British Isles." After a careful review of the whole subject. Lord Durham says : — I had still more strongly impressed upon me the great advantagea of a united government ; and I was gratified" by finding the leading minda of the varioua coloniea atrongly and generally inclined to a scheme that would elevate their countries into something like a national exist ence. I thought that it would be the tendency of a Federation, sanctioned and consolidated by a monarchical government, gradually to become a complete Legislative union ; and that thua,while concihating the French of Lower Canada, by leaving them the government of their own pro vmce, and their own internal legialation, I might provide fbr the protection of British intereata by the General Government, aud the gradual tran sition of the provincea into an united and homo- geneoua community. But, [Hia Lordahip adda,] the period of gradual tranaition is past in Lower Canada, [and therefore he aaya,] that the only efficacious government would be that formed by a Legialative union. Having thus dealt with the question in its application to Upper and Lower Canada, he extends the range of his observations to the whole of the British possessions in North America, and remarks : — But while I convince myself that such desirable enda would be secured by a legialative union of the two provincea, I am inclined to go further and enquire whether all these o.njects would not be more surely obtained by extending this legis lative union over all the British possessions iu North America; and whether the advantages which I anticipate for two of them might not, and should not in justice be extended over all. Such an union would at once decisively settle the question of races ; it would enable the provincea to co-operate for all common purpoaes ; and, above all, it would form a great and powerful people, possessing the means of securing good and reaponsible government for itself, and which, under tbe protection of the British Empire, might in aome measure counterbalance the preponderant and increasing influence of the United States on the American continent. Hia Lordship had no fears that such an union would lead to separation from the Mother Country. He rather looked upon it aa a meana of atrengthening the bonda which united them, and of ita proving an advantage to both. On thia point he aays : — I do not anticipate that a colonial legialature thus atrong and thus self-governing would desire to abandon the connection with Great Britain. On the contrary, I beheve that the practical relief from undue interference which would be the reault of auch a change would strengthen the present bond of feelings and interesta, and that the connection would only become more diirable and advantageoua by having more of equalityj of freedom, and of local independence. But, at any rate, our first duty is to secure the well-being of our colonial countrymen; and if in the hidden decrees of that Wisdom by which thia world ia ruled, itia written that these countriea are not for ever to remain portiona of the Empire, we owe it to our honor to take good care that when they aeparate from ua they should not he the only countries on the American continent m which the Anglo-Saxon race shall be found unfit to govern themselves. I am, [says His Lordship,] in truth, so far from believing thatthe increased power and weight given to these colonies by union would endanger their connection with the Empire, that I look to it aa the meana of foater- ing such a national feeling throughout them as would effectually counterbalance whatever ten- ' dencies may now exist towarda aeparation. 910 His Lordship then strongly recommends the union of the two Canadas under one Legialature, and of reconstituting them as one province ; and " the bUl," he says, " should contain provisions by which any or all of the North American colonies may, on the appU cation ofthe Legislature, be, with the consent of the two Canadas, or their united Legisla ture, admitted into the . union on such terms as may be agreed on between them." These remarkable passages drawn from Lord Durham's report, appear to me to embody the very spirit of the scheme submitted to our consideration by the Govemment, and coming to us recommended by so high an authority, merit our best attention ; and if realized, though not in the precise form many of us might desire, we may hope it will heal our intestine divisions, and open to us a glorious future. Representation based on popula tion is denied to Upper Canada, unless coupled with the Confederation of all the British Notth American colonies ; the separation of Upper Canada, pure and simple, is not to be thought of; to retum to the positicn we occupied only a year ago, would be to plunge once more into political contests, with feelinga embittered by disappointment ; and therefore, with reaer- vations affecting detaila only, I ahall feel it to be my duty to give the motion before the Houae my beat aupport. (Hear, hear.) And now, air, I propoae to conaider the acheme aubmitted to us in relation to the larger ques tion of the union of aU the British North American Provinces under one government, for purposes common to them all. I needed not the arguments or the eloquence of hon orable gentlemen on the Treasury benches to convince me of the immense importance of auch a junction as shall lead to the develop ment of a new nationality, and secure to generationa yet unborn the advantagea of unity and power. With the permiaaion of the Houae, I will read an extract from a letter which I addressed to the Duke of Newcastle in 1859, when that nobleman visited this country in the suite of His Roy al Highness the Prince of Wales, bearing directly on this point. Having briefly stated the grounds which induced me to write to His Grace, I said: — The possessions of Great Britain in North America are not only vaat in extent aud marvel- loua in resources, but for facility of internal com munication by lakes and rivers, are unrivalled ; and their geographical position is such aa to make them of the rery last importance to the political and commercial greatness of the Britiah Empire. Poaaeaaing the control of this magni ficent part of the American continent, with com paratively eaay access through it from the Atlan tic to the Pacific shorea. Great Britain need not fear the rivalry nor dread the preponderance of the United Statea. But in order that she may derive from it all the advantages it is so weU cal culated to afford, she ' muat have a fixed and determinate policy, wisely conceived, practical in its details, and peraeveringly carried out. In the planting of future coloniea in Britiah North America, care should be taken to make them aa few as possible. I regret, therefore, that it ap pears to have been determined to give the Red River settlement a diatinct political existence. Canada ahould have beeu allowed to expand weatwarda to the Rocky Mountains, inatead of being cooped up within her present limita. She would then have been able to ahaorb more easily the outlying coloniea of Newfoundland, Nova Scotia, New Brunawick and Prince Edward Ialand on the Atlantic, and British Columbia and Vancouver's Island on the Pacific. Consolidated ultimately under one govemment, after the model of the Mother Country, with auch modificationa aa the circumstancea of the caae might require, an empire might be formed over which, hereafter, some one branch of the Eoyal Family might reign a constitutional monarch, over a free and united people. In the meantime there ia nothing to hinder the appointment of a Prince of the blood royal to be Viceroy over all the poaaesaions of Great Britain in North America, and under him, lieutenantrgovemors to administer the affairs of the separate dependenciea, until they could be gradually and permanently united. Your Grace will perceive from thia statement that I object to the American system of federation, and would oppose to it the unification of the British colonies in this part of the world. One govemment, one legislature, one judiciary, instead of many, with their conflicting institu tions, interests, aud jurisdictions, ia what I would reapectfuUy venture to recommend as the true policy of the Mother Country on thia aide of the Atlantic, as it has been -with the most aplendid reaults on the other. A Federal Govern ment, auch as that of the United States, for instance, is and must be weak in itself, from the discordant elementa of -svhich it ia compoaed, and wOl be found to contain -within itself the seeda of disorganization and disaolution. The multipUca tion of coloniea in a new conn-try like tlus ia tantamount to the multiplication of petty sovereignties, and the creation of rivalriea and autagonisma which, aooner or later, will manifest themaelves, and prevent the development of that greatness, power and prosperity which an oppo site policy, -wisely administered, would, in my judgment, effectually promote and aecure. By unification, however, I do not mean centralization. I am no friend to the bureaucratic system of France, Austria, and Prussia. A govemment, to be atrong and respected, muat leave to the people the largeat amount of liberty consistent -with the aafety and advantage of the whole, in the manage- 911 meat of their local affairs. Such a municipal system as we have iu Canada is all that is neces sary to secure that end. With the political fran chise extended to all classes of the , community, whether native-horn or naturalized, the national life could not fail to develope itself in forms that would give permanence to ita inatitutions, con tentment to ita people, and atrength to ita gov ernment.The opinions whioh I entertained in 1859 I entertain now. Now, as then, I am in favor of the unification of the British American Provinces. Now, as then, I am opposed to the Federal principle, as exemplified in the formation and practical working of the Gov ernment of the United States. The greatest statesmen, the wisest men, who became con spicuous during the American revolution, were clearly of opinion that a government to be strong must be a unit, and must possess with in itself, and in aU its organs, supreme power and a commanding influence. To diffuse those powers, or even to share them vrith state or local governments, they felt would weaken it in its most vital parte. They would, there fore, have stripped the States of every attri bute of sovereignty, and confined their action to matters of a purely local or municipal char acter ; but they had not the power, and the consequences are visible in the fratricidal war now raging among them, devastating their fairest provinces and filling the land with mourning and woe. The lessons of history and the experience of other peoples should not be lost upon us ; and for myaelf, I hesitate not to say that if, in the propoaed Feder ation of the British American colonies, we were to foUow the example of the framera of the Government of the United Statea, or to copy its Constitution, it would have my most determined opposition. The scheme before us, however, is formed after a different model, and in its essential featuresis in perfect con trast to that on whioh the Constitution of the United States is based. It is true it creates local govemments with large legislative and executive powers; it is true it gives those govemments concurrent powers with the Gen eral Government ; it is true it gives them pos session of the public lands within their several jurisdictions ; it is true it aUows two of those govemments to levy export duties on lumber, coal and other minerals, — and looked at in the light of an advanced poUtical science, this is to be lamented ; but looked at in the light of posaible and practicable statesmanship, it was unavoidable. I am, therefore, prepared to accept it as a whole, as in fact the best that could have been produced under the circum stances in which it was framed. (Hear, hear.) A careful analysis of the scheme con-vinces me that the powers conferred on the General or Central Government secures it all the attri butes of sovereignty, and the veto power whicii its executive will possess, and to which all local legislation -will be su'bject, will pre vent a confUct of laws and jurisdictions in all matters of importance, so that I believe in its working it will be found, if not in form yet in fact and practically, a legislative union. (Hear, hear.) Taking this general and, as I believe, correct view of the 5 Hon. Atty. Gen. CARTIER— I will add to what haa been stated by the Hon. Attorney General for Upper Canada, in reply to the hon. member for the county of Que bec and the hon. member for Hochelaga, that it was also necessary to protect tbe English minorities in Lower Canada with respect to the use of their language, because ia the Local Parliament of Lower Canada the majority will be composed of French- Canadians. The members of the Conference were desiroua that it ahould not be in the power of that majority to decree the abolition of the use of the Engliah language in the Local Legialature of Lower Canada, any more than it will be in the power of the Federal Legialature to do so with reapect to the French language. I will also add that the* use of both languages will be secured in the Imperial Act to be based on these resolutions. (Hear, hear.) Hon. Mr. DORION— I am very glad to hear this statement; but I fail to see any thing in the reaolutiona themaelvea which gives auch an aaaurance, in proof of which we have the honorable member for Quebec county asking how the matter really standa. But it is not simply for the use of the French language in the Legislature that protection is needed — that is not of ao great importance as is the publication of the lawa and pro ceedinga of Parliament. The apeechea deli vered in thia Houae are only addressed to a few,but the lawa and proceedings ofthe House are addressed to the whole people, a million or nearly a million of whom speak the French language. I now beg to address one or two observations on a different subject. When the question was first brought before us, I drew the attention ofthe Government to the discrepancy between the printed reaolutions which are now submitted to us, and the reso lutions "which were despatched to the mem bers of the Legialature, during the receaa, by the Hon. Provincial Secretary. The diacre- pancy conaiata in the wording of the third section ofthe 29 th reaolution. In the reao lutions which were sent us by the Hon. Pro vincial Secretary, the 29th read as foUowa : — The General Government ahall have power to make laws for the peace, welfare and gocd gov ernment ol the Federated Provinces (aaving the Sovereignty of England), and eapecially lawa respecting the following aubjects , — [The subjecta, 37 in number, follow, the 3rd reading thus]: — 3. The impoaition or regulation of dutiea of cnstcms on importa and exports, except on exports of timber, loga, maata, spars, deals, 120 and sawn lumber, and of coal and other miner als. [The 43rd of the same resolutions states] : The local legialaturea shall have power to make lawa reapecting the following subjecta : — Direct taxation and the impoaition of dutiea on the export of timber, loga, masts, apara, deala, and aawn lumber, and of coala and other minerala. So that the General Government are forbidden to place export dutiea on lumber, coals, and other minerals found in any of the several provinces, such right being reserved to the local legislatures. But in the resolutions aubmitted to the House in English, there is a moat important and invidious distinction, and I drew the attention of the Hon. Finance Minister to it early in the debate. It states : — The General Parliament shall have power to make laws, etcetera, respecting the following subjects : — * * * 3. The impoaition or re gulation of duties of customs on importa aud exporta — except on exports of timber, logs, masts, apara, deala, and sawn lumber from New Brunswick ; and of coals and other minerals from Nova Scotia. By the firat of theae aeriea of resolutions the General Government was deprived of the right of imposing export duties on lumber, coals, and other minerals in regard to all the provinces ; whilst by the resolutions now before the House, the General Government is allowed to impoae such dutiea except on lumbei ex ported frora New Brunswick, and coals and other minerals exported from Nova Scotia. Then the 43rd resolution now before the House aaya : — The looal legislatures ahall have power to make lawa respecting the following subjects:—!. Di rect taxation, and in Ne v Brunswick the impo sition of duties on the export of timber, logs, masts, spara, deala, and sawn lumber ; and in Nova Scotia, of coals and other minerals. That ia to aay, in New Brunawick and Nova Scotia they have a right to impoae dutiea, for local purposea, on the export of lumber, coals, and other minerals, whilst in Canada and the other provinces that power is withheld ; and while the timber and minerals from Canada can be taxed by tbe General Government for general purposes, the timber of New Bruns wick, and tbe coal and minerals of Nova Scotia, can only be taxed by the local govem ments of these provinces, and for local pur poses only. This is a most unjust arrange ment for both Upper and Lower Canada. Now, air, I find in an official document, pub liahed in Nova Scotia under the sanction of 946 the Govemment of that province, and submit ted to parliament now sitting, that the powers ofthe General Government and of the local gov emments in reapect to the export duties upon lumber, coals, and other minerals, are exactly the aame, word for word, as are aet forth in the printed copy aent to the membera during the receaa. (Hear, hear.) It haa been aa aerted that thia was a treaty entered into by the delegatea of the several provincea ; but it seema to be a treaty in which alterations have been made. (Hear, hear.) I called the at tention of the honorable gentlemen oppoaite to thia discrepancy, and aaked which was the true and correct copy of the resolutions, and I waa told that it was the copy which had been aubmitted to the Houae. There haa been an alteration aomewhere ; and in a matter of thia aerioua importance, the Government ought to tell ua how and where it occurred — they ought to inform us if it ia not the case that the treaty was changed after the Confer ence had ceased to meet, and at whose request and by whom the change was made. It is evident that we are called to vote for a soheme, here, different from that submitted to the Legislature of Nova Scotia, and one more un favorable to ua than that which the delegatea from Nova Scotia have reported to their Gov ernment. While on thia aubject, I will alao remark that there ia alao a diacrepancy between the French and the EngUsh versions of the resolutions submitted to the Houae, the French version being the aame aa the one com municated to the membera by the Hon. Provin cial Secretary, and alao to thoae aubmitted to the Nova Sootia Legialature. Thia would indicate that the change has been made in these reaolutiona subraitted to thia House, and it is well that we ahould have some informa tion, and know what haa taken place about thia pretended treaty since the separation of the delegates. (Hoar, hear.) There is an other iraportant matter which demands the at tention of the House. It haa been atated here that the whole of the delegates had agreed to the reaolutiona of the Conference. (Hear, hear.) 'The name of Mr. Palmer waa men tioned aa being an exception, and to that tho honorable gentlemen opposite declared that all the delegatea had agreed to theae reaolu tiona. Ia not that what was atated ? Hon. Atty. Gen. MACDONALD— Yea. Hon. Mr. DORION— But I find that beaidea Mr. Palmer, who asaerted publicly that he had aigned the resolutiona of the Conference to authenticate them, and that he had not agreed to theso reaolutiona, there is also Mr. Dickey, another delegate, who has taken the same course. Mr. Dickey even went so far as to address a letter to the Lieu tenant-Governor of Nova Scotia, Sir R. Graves McDonnell, in which he says: — The Honorable Provincial Secretary haa submitted for my inspection a report to Your Excellency, dated Sth December last, and signed by himself, the- Honorable Attorney General, the Honorable J. McCullt, and A. G. Archi bald, Esq., of the reault of a mission with which we were charged by Your Excellency, to attend a Conference at Quebec upon the subject of Inter colonial union. In that report I am happy to he able cordially to concur, except as to that portion of it which would aeem to imply the unanimous action of members of the Conference. As I had the miafortune to differ from my colleagues in several important detaila of the soheme submitted to Your Excellency, I feel myaelf constrained to withhold my signature from the report, unaccompanied by this explanation. My regret at this circumstance ia greatly dimin iahed by the reflection that the Right Honorable the Secretary of State for the Coloniea, in his deapatch of 3rd December laat; austains my view that the acheme ia auaceptible of modification and improvement. (Hear, hear.) These are two points which I think are very important, and the honorable gentlemen opposite ought to offer some ex planation — on the first point, at all events. In the retum of correspondence presented to the Nova Scotia Legislature, I find alao a very important letter which was addressed on the 9tli of January last, by the Lieutenant-Gov ernor of Nova Scotia to the Governor General of Canada. That letter haa never been com municated to us, although an Address for all the correspondence in reference to this Confed eration scbeme was proposed and carried sev eral weeks ago. This letter of Sir R. Gra-VES McDonnell was in answer to a despatoh from Lord Monck of the 23rd December, 1861, and the third paragraph reads as fol lows : — It ia evident from the communication of the Right Honorable the Secretary of State, that Her Majesty'a Government expecta to be aided in the preparation of a bill embodying the suggestions of the Quebec Conference, by deputations from the several provinces. It alao appeara to myself and the members of my Government, that to avoid the probable multiplied divergence of opin ion in each Legislature, inseparable from discuss ing a great variety of details in aeveral independ ent parliaments, despite of a general agreement in the main objects and principles of the general scheme, it is better for theae provinces to avail themaelvea of the friendly arbitramenl of the 947 Queen's Government and send delegatea to con sult -with the latter during the preparation of the proposed Imperial Bill. The peculiar " viewa" — aud thia is the point — of each legialature might, if necessary, find expreasion in inatructiona to the delegatea from each. t (Hear, hear.) So we find in this letter, which has been -withheld from us, a sugges tion that amendments can be made to the scheme in the form of instructions to the de legates from each of the several legislatures ; and yet honorable gentlemen have stated that these resolutions were, in point of fact, a treaty, which this Legislature could not alter or amend in the least important particular, but that honorable raembers must say " aye " or '' nay " upon them^recisely as they stand I (Hear, hear.) There are three material cir cumstances here cited — first, the discrepancies in regard to the export duties on lumber, coals and other minerals ; second, the discre- Ijon which is reserved to the Lower Provin ces, by their legislatures, to alter and amend the resolutions ; and third, the dissent by two ofthe delegates to the so-caUed treaty, al though we have been informed by our oyn Government that the Conference was unani mously in favor of it. (Hear, hear.) I de sire explanations from the -Ministry on these important points. (Hear, hear.) Hon. Mr. GALT. — As to the first point, I can only say that full explanations have al ready been given on several occasions ; with reference to the second point, the Canadian Government is not responsible for the opin iona of the delegates after they left this coun try ; and as regards the third point. His Ex cellency the Governor General sent down the correspondence to this House as fully as he thought proper, and I presume the lieutenant- governors of the other provinces did the same. Hon. Mr. DORION— I will remind the honorable gentleman that there is another discrepancy. The French copy of the reso lutions before the House is exactly in accord ance with the printed document sent from Nova Scotia, and with the copy sent to mem bers by the Hon. Provincial Secretary, while the English copy now before the House is different. Now, of these different versions which is the correct one, and where has the alteration been made ? The importance of the question is, I think, very great ; for if the version given in this Blue-Book from Nova Scotia, and in the French copy, be cor rect, we in Lower Canada wUl have a right to impose, for local purposes, an export duty on all timber, either from Upper or Lower Canada. (Hear, hear.) The resolution is in plain terms, and declares that the General Government shall have no right to impose an export duty on timber, but that the local govemments shall. Hon. Mr. BROWN— The right copy is that in the Speaker's hands, of course. Hon. Mr. DORION— But there are two versions of it — the one in English differing from that in French. Hon. Atty. Gen. MACDONALD— I moved the reaolutions in Engliah, and if there ia any diOFerence in the French oopy, it is an error in the translation. Hon. Mr. DORION— Well, if the EngUsh copy is tbe right one, tbe General Government will have the right to' impose an export duty on all timber except that exported from New Brunswick, and on all coala and minerala except from Nova Scotia. Several MEMBERS— That is the right one. Mr. De NIVERVILLE— Mr. Speaker, as the junior member of tbis honorable House, it was proper that I should be the last to apeak on the question which now engages our attention. A very few days before the com mencement of the present session, I did not know that I should fill the seat which I now occupy in this chamber, and should be called on to vote on the question of Confederation, and take part in the debate upon it. Ac cordingly, I have not had time, as most of the honorable members who have spoken on the scheme submitted to tbe Houae have had, to prepare myself to treat it in apolitical and dip lomatic sense, and to examine the basis on which it rests. If, on the other hand, I had had the time necessary to make myself thoroughly ac quainted with it in all its bearings, I should have acted not otherwise than I shall now act. I should bave left, as now, to other members of this House better qualified than I am in re spect of knowledge, and the discussion _ and consideration of great political questions, which are the fruit of a long service in Par Uament — I should have left to such honor able members the office of viewing the ques tion in the various aspecta which diatinguish it. (Hear, hear.) As member for the chief place of the district of Three Rivera, and a French-Canadian, I ought to speak in explan ation of my views. The difficult position of the country for the last few years, arising from .tho equal strength of the two parties in the political arena, and rendering the admin istration 'if pnbHc affairs arduous to the va- 94.8 rious ministries -which had, one after another, come into power — that poaition, I aay, ne- cesaitated a change whicii might put an end to such a deplorable state of affairs. Our situ ation waa like that of the Roman Erapire when near its fall. The union, as the iton. Attomey General for Lower Canada (Hon. Mr. Cartier) so well said, had laMted its tirae ; it now became necessary to try sorae thing else. It was necesaary that the nation which, of all the different racea which inhabit the British Provinces in North America, is foremost in duration, energy and proaperity, ahould take the lead and initiate that meaaure which waa to deliver the country from ita diffi cultiea. Well, Mr. Speaker, the most n'jtural remedy which occurred waa the acheme for the Confederation of the Engliah Provincea on thia continent, and aa the opponents of tbe meaaure — men who have thrown'^all tbeir powers, cour age and peraeverance into their oppoaition — have never raoved any other, it aeeraed to be the only one which found acceptance. Thia scheme has not had tbe effect of producing fear in my mind, aa it haa in aeveral morahers who have spoken before me. After careful examination, I have arrived at the conclusion that it ia practicable, and that it ought to be adopted. I am well aware that it is not per fect, for there is nothing perfect in thia nether world. It waa not poaaible to take every advantage for Lower Canada, and to leave nothing for Upper Canada and the Maritime Provincea. Some conceaaions were necesaary to be raade in common justice, as we were obtaining great material advantages, together with tbe preservation and pr.jtection of our dearest interesta. In abort, it was neceaaary that we and they ahould make what ia gener ally termed a compromiae, and that compro miae waa auch aa to be in our favor in every reapect. I do not profeaa to be a religioua man, but I may venture, to aasert, without transgreaaing the bounda of mbdeaty, that I love and revere my religion as much as any other man in this House. Before, therefore, I could form any decided opinion on the queation that ia now before tbe Houae, and give ray vote in favor of it, I did not omit to conault our prieata. I have alwaya blamed the conduct of thoae prieata who interfered in electiona and matters of policy, acting the parta of canvaaaera and ultra-partisans, inatead of endeavoring from the pulpit— the very abode of truth — to calm the animositiea of parties, and to aid the people in making an Jionest, free, independent and judicious choice, mi Um% m awanBey Ik pulpit of tv^tb itself into a political tribune, from which they promulgate principles which might be termed seditious. Such conduct I have always con demned. I love to find in the members of the clergy thoae virtuea which ought to char- acteriae them; and as now the buaineaa in band ia not -the election of a member of Par- liam.ent, but a complete change in the Con stitution of the country, it is my opinion that they ought to be conaidered citizens, and fo enjoy as fully and completely as any other clasa the endowments and privileges which belong to others, and that, as others have, so should they have a right to examine the new Constitution wbich we.are to receive, and to give their opinion on its merits and imperfec tions. Relying on the judgment and the.in- telligence of certain of this order, I thought it right to consult them. I had recourse to two members of the clergy of the district of Three Rivers — men of great learning, and eminently qualified to give an opinion on the scbeme of Confederation — men who were perfectly free from tbe spirit of party, without political bias or peraonal ambition to be gratified in prefer ence to the intereata of the country, and whoae opiniona were entitled to reapect aa being fhe fruit of a life o:^ atndy and labor constantly employed to increase the happiness and pros perity of their feUow-citizens and their coun try, and to protect our religious institutiona. ( Hear, hear.) I have no intention to name thoae two venerable men, who are known tbroughout the country as two of the most distinguished membera of our Canadian clergy and moat eminent citizena. Well, Mr. Speaker, I conaulted thoae two men, and both agreed in making answer that they were favorable to the project of Confederation of the British North American Provinces on thia continent. Reating, then, on my own convictiona that Confederation is the best means we have at hand of escaping frora the present difficult position of the country, and on the authority of members of the clergy — an authority whioh I take pleaaure in mentioning, becauae the opponents of the Ministerial plan have affected to believe that all the clergy in the country are oppoaed to the meaaure — thus supported, Mr. Speaker, I hold it to be ray duty, and I do not hesit te to give my vote in favor of the principle and the project of Confederation. Certain appre henaiona have ariaen in the public mind rela tive to the project in queation ; theae feara, I need not aay, have been excited by the opponenta of the measure, who make them- selvefthoafsfi with erring that Fmeh-Clanaclia^ 949 nationality would be swallowed up by Con federation, and that in twenty-five or thirty years' time there would not be a single French- Canadian left in Lower Canada. Well, Mr. Speaker, I appeal, to prove the failsehood of these declarations, to the men who in 1840 the time of the union of the two provinces — labored with so much zeal and energy to guard the natural depository of our social and religious rights from danger — I appeal, to prove it, to those men who applied all their energy, their abilities, and their patriotism to prevent the union; to those men who, endowed with a singleness of mind at least equal to that which animates the opponents of Confederation, procured numerous petitions to be signed against the union of Upper and Lower Canada ; to those men, in short, who predicted that in ten years' time there would not be a single French-Canadian left — these men I summon to the bar of public opinion, aiiHIaakthem — " Gentlemen, did you predict truly? What has become of that French- Canadian nationality which was to be swal lowed up by the union ? Has it disappeared, as you said it would ? See and judge for yourselves." That nation, which was doomed to be annihUated, has built up Montreal, the first commercial city in the two Canadas — Montreal, on which the honorable member for Richelieu (Mr. Perrault) pronounced such a pompous eulogy in his speech the other evening — an eulogy that he extended to the country generaUy — praising its immense resources and growiuL' prosperity. It was under the union and through the union that the aplendid Victoria Bridge was erected, the most magnificent work of the kind in the world. IJnder its auspices, also, we con structed those immense canals which have re ceived honorable mention from the lips of the honorable member for Richelieu ; and every body knows that that houorable member is eminently qualified to pronounce a judgment on such matters, having seen and examined the canals constructed in Europe. Accor dingly we are justified in saying that our canals are immeasurably superior to the canals of Europe, as he tells us in respect to several of our canals, that a boy in the smallest of skiffs could touch the revitement walls with his two tiny oars. I must say that I do not accept the interpretation put on tbat part of the honorable member's speech by the honor able member for Montcalm (Mr. Joseph DupresneI, in which he asid that there were men on the bench of bishops as well informed and ai eminent as aay that were to be ij'oijud in any ministry. This is the interpretation I put on that phrase of the honorable member for Richelieu, and I do not think I mistake in saying that it turns against those who, at the time of the union of the two Canadas, did everything they could to prevent it. In 1840 those men, those good and zealous patriots, told the people, by way of serving their cause, that in twenty-five years there would not be a single French-Canadian left in Lower Canada ; and now the honorable mem ber for Richelieu comes out and gives them the lie direct by aaying that, at thia present time, the Roman Catholic bench of biahopa num bers among its members men — of course French-Canadians — wbo are as eminent for their talents and acquirements as the most distinguished members of our political world ; and that religion is amply protected by the present Constitution, which was nevertheless destined, according to those great patriots, to swallow us up and sweep us from the face of the continent. Mr. DENIS— That is very true. Mr. De NIVERVILLE— One word to comfort those French-CaLadians who are afraid of suffering wrong in the Federal Parliament, being as they say an insignifi cant minority of tbat body. Ever since nations began to comprehend their true interests, a certain equilibrium haa been eatabliahed which it will alwaya be their aim to maintain. Thia conatitutea the protection which the union of two weak partiea affords againat a atrong one, which would aggran dize itaelf at their expenae. This law of equilibrium ia reproduced in all times and places — among nations and among indivi duals : it is found even among animals. For what purpose did the two first nations in the world, France and England, unite together to resist the invading forces of the powerful despot of the north — tbe Emperor of Ruaaia, and what waa the object of tbe campaign in the Crimea? Was it to reap the barren glory of shouting that the French aoldiera ruahed to the aaaault with the im- petuoua apeed of the thunderbolt; tbat the Engliah aoldiera received the enemy's fire without yielding a loot ; that they marched with the cool determination of a wedge of iron againat the enemy'a squares, and that nothing could resist their onward move ment ? By no means. Thoae two powers were perfectly acquainted with tbe qualities which distinguished their respective armies, and did not need to put them to the proof ^beir iot^atiQXi v^s supply to prcT«Rt the 950 Emperor of Russia from extending the fron tiers of his statea indefinitely, to the detriment of the surrounding nations. Why did the present Emperor of the French go to war with his cousin the Emperor of Austria ? For exactly the same reason. I will go even further, and ask why the beast grazing in a pasture drives av^ay the firat atrange animal which entera it ? It ia a mere inatinct ot aelf-preaervation. (Hear, hear.) Well, Mr. Speaker,, aa that inatinct of aelf-preaervation prevails among all created beinga on the earth, why should it not be produced among the different provinoes of tbe Confederation ? If Upper Canada should ever seek to act unjustly towards Lower Canada and the Lower Provincea, the latter would naturally and inatiuctively strike up an alliance to reaiat the encroach ments and injustice of the sister province. I am certain, therefore, that in this reapect we have nothing to fear. Aa a French- Canadian, it is my business to speak of what concerns us most nearly : our religion, our language, our institutions and our laws. Well, then, with respect to our language, I ask whether there is the least danger of our losing, it in the Confederation ? Far from being in danger, I believe it will be more io vogue under the new rigime, as it can be spoken and made use of not only in the Federal Parliament and local legislatures, but also in the supreme courts which will be hereafter instituted in the country. I spy that when that time arrives — tbat ia to aay, when the Confederation ia eatablished, we shall have a fuller use of our language. For what liberty have we in ita uae in this chamber ? That liberty which the liberala have vaunted ao highly, which car not be touched without deatroying it, in what way have we it here ? Haa it been conceded to us i n the full acceptation of the word ? By no means, Mr. Speaker ; we have it, but it is aa Tantalus had the water — he waa thiraty, but he drank not; though the water bubbled to hia lipa, the water receded as aoon aa he attempted to receive it. (Hear, hear.) In truth, what kind of liberty have we, who do not underatand the English language '! We are at liberty to hold our tongues, to liaten, and to underatand if wc can. (Hear, hear, and continued laughter.) Under the Confederation, the Upper Cana dians will speak their language, and the Lower Canadians theirs, juat aa we do now; with thia difference, that they who count a large majority of their countrymen in the Houae, may hope to hear their language spoken the ofteneat, as new members will use the language of the majority. I intend no reproval to the honorable members who have spoken in English on the question now before the Houae, thus depriving us of the pleaaure of understanding them, and, therefore, of enjoying their eloquence, and being convinced by their logic. What they have done on the present occasion is a simple act of justice due to the majority of thia House, and one which the French- Canadians have alwaya rendered with pleaaure. But if we follow the example of most French- Canadians in days gone by, we shall not keep our language long How often do we find in the towns, nay, even in the country parts, Canadians who have no sooner caught up two words of English than they run off with delight to repeat them to their neighbors. Emigration to the United Statea, whioh will ceaae under Confederation (for we ahall ]jave the management of our public lands), has been a principal cauae of that' stupid mania with which all seem to be aeized who have lived aome time among our neighbora and returned to Canada, 'lo give you an idea of that lamentable mania, I ahall relate a circumstance in which I was one of the actors. Not two months since, I was on the platform at the station where the branch from Artbabaska to Three Rivers leaves the Grand Trunk, when two young men, dressed in the American faahion, came to the hotel. One, as he carae in, called out in a loud voice, " Where is the ostler ?" The man, who was a stout Canadian, soon made his appearance, and as soon as he set eyes on the gentleman, called out in his turn, "What! Joe, is it you ?" {Tiens ! c'est toi, Joh .') Of course our pretended American was taken aback, and for the moment dumb founded. Seeing his embarrassment, and willing, in pity to the poor victim of affecta tion, to relieve him from it, although it had its comic side, I called to the stableman and said, " Go and take the gentlemen's horses; don't you see they are Americans, and that they don't understand you." Well, Mr. Speaker, auch scenes frequently occur ; nay, thoae who move now and then from home may see them every day. So if we do not wish our beautiful language to lose its influence, we must ' not fail to discountenance the affectation of Canadians talking English^ when they hardly know a word of it. Otherwise we must take to talking English, and let our own language 951 sink into disuse and oblivion. For our religion I have no fears. The experience of the past is a guarantee for the future. We live no longer in those times when Paradise was the promised reward of all who ill-treated those of a religion different from their own. These are not the days in which wars and troubles between nations were begotten of religioua hatred. The world is too civilized to renew the acenea whioh were then con stantly exhibited. Every man is free to practise his religion as he pleases, and this tolerant spirit is especially to be noted as characterising the English nation. True, we find some fanatics both among the Eng lish and the French population : unfortu nately we had two inatancea of the working of this spirit in one evening in thia Houae — the one from a Catholic, the other from a Protestant. The former cried out loudly that Confederation would be a mortal blow to the Catholic religion, while the other cried as loudly that it would be the ruin of the Protestants. I must confess, Mr. Speaker, that I am not one of those who live in fear and distrust of British domina tion. As long as we live under the sway of free England, I have not the least doubt that our language will be fully protected, and that in fifty years from this present time, good Catholics will be allowed the exercise of their religion as freely, as safely and as piously as this day, and that the wicked will not be compelled to be more religious than they now are. (Hear, hear.) The hon. member for Bagot told us that there are a great number of Catholics in England, and that they are perfectly at Uberty to exercise their religion at their pleasure, but that tbey are notrepresented in the English Parliament. Thia, far from being a proof of intolerance, I, take to be a proof of their tolerant character, since, although able to oppress the CathoUcs, they leave them at full liberty to falfil the pioua exerciaea of their religion. I repeat it, Mr. Speaker, there are fanatics in all religioua ; happily for humanity, they are but a amall minority, and men of good sense hold them in contempt. (^Hear, hear.) Our institutions are secured to us by our treaties with Great Britain ; our laws by the articles of Confederation. What coercion, what restraint or opposition have we to ap prehend from the Mother Country, when the subject of the Britiah Government is acknow ledged throughout the whole world to be of all men the most free ? Most free in the exercise of his rights as a citizen ; as free in speech and action as he is secure in his per son, wherever he may find occaaion to assert his righta, to uphold them and defend them. I say " wherever," beoause the English peo ple can, with as perfect freedom and perfect oonfidence, state their grievances before any tribunal and all authorities, from the highest to the lowest, as they can in the bosom of their families or in a circle of intimate friends. We, moreover, possess one infalli ble means — based on the laws of Nature herself — of preserving to the French-Cana dians in all their purity their language, their religion, their institutions and their laws; and that means is education — the education which we receive first from the authors of our existence in our childhood, and whiehis afterwards continued in our eleraentary schools and our seminaries ; that education — Christian, moral and religious — which is so carefully, wisely and' anxiously instilled into us in our youthful days by the masters and tutors of our collegea ; that practical educa tion which we acquire in the course of our dealings and transactions with men of busi neaa. That education it ia, Mr. Speaker, which renders nations prosperous, rich and great, which elevates them to the rank of which they are worthy, and maintains them in it. It never fades from the mind on which it has been impressed — it remains fixed on the memory, like the characters whioh we engrave on the bark of a young tree, and which are found long years after, when it falls under the wood man's axe. As the representative of the city of Three Rivers, I may be allowed to say a few words relative to the advantages which Confederation will bring to that dis trict. Every one knows that it possesses immense tracts of land not yet opened out to the settler, magnificent forests of timber of all kinds, and mines of ineatimable value. It is beyond question that Three Rivers yields the best iron in the country. 'This was proved at the Great Exhibition at London, where the first medals were awarded to the Radnor Ironworks Company for the best iron-wheels, in respect of durability, elegance and quality. The St. Maurice has been grossly neglected by the varioua Ad ministrations which, during the last ten years, have held office, although the district yielded a revenue of |30,000 or $40,000 to the pubUc chest, which might have entitled it to some compensation. Nevertheless, the 952 district of Three Rivers is not behind other districts in the country, either in industrial succesa or in the energy and enterpriae of its inhabitants. The Arthabaaka Railway, whicb it waa aaid would not pay running expensea, ia at present more productive than any part ofthe Grand Tiunk Railway. We need cclonization roada and railwaya, and I am convinced that under the Confeder ation, when we shall have the management of our own funda without the interference of Upper Canada, we ahall build railwaya in all parta where the requirementa of trade and induatrial purauita call for them. We ahall then offer to the aettler well-made and well- kept roada, and the diatrict of Three Rivera will derive precioua reaults from them, aa well aa other diatricta ofthe country. (Hear, Hear.) We have a proof of the rapidity with which ' the diatrict of Three Rivera would grow, if it were encouraged. Thia is found in the pariahea of St. Maurice, St. Etienne, Ste. Flore and Shawinigan. It ia nearly twenty-five yeara aince St. Maurice waa a mere foreat ; now it ia a large, rich, and beautiful pariah, of which the diatrict of Three Rivera has reason to be proud. It numbers upwards of five hun dred voters with the parish of Mont Carmel, which is an offaetfrom ic. Tho extenaive trade in timber which ia carried on in the valley of the St. Maurice, and which employa thouaanda of laborera, ia an important element in the commercial buaineaa of the country, exporting to a great amount the lumber which ia taken frora the extenaive terri tory — if I may be allowed the expreaaion — belonging to the district of Three Rivera ; and theae vast tracta which await the aettler, thoae iron rainea ao rich and ao well known, thoae minea of other minerala atill hidden in the mountaina and valleya of the St. Maurice, thoae richea of all kinda which abound there await only the hand of man to render the diatrict and city of Three Rivera an important part of Lower Canada. (Hear, hear.) The Ministera of the Crown in Canada have been accuaed of bringing up the queation of Confel eration only aa a meana of retaining power and increaaing it. The Hon. Attorney General for Lower Canada haa been accuaed of moving that meaaure only that he may become Lieutenant- Governor of Lower Canada. Well, Mr. Speaker, 1 am thoroughly convinced that that honorable Miniater haa too much energy, ia too laborious, to seek or to accept an office in which he would have nothing to do. (Hear, hear.) For my part, I make a present to the Opposition of all the profit I am likely to derive from places or dignities under Confederation, when we have it. I repel the idea that Canadian statesmen allowed themaelvea to be influenced by paltry notiona of peraonal intereat, when they aet about deviaing meana to extricate us from the difficultiea in which we were involved. They had in view only the intereats of the nation, and never had a thought, as some have insinu ated, of delivering the oountry up to ruin and desolation. I conclude, Mr. Speaker, by declaring thatI am in favor of Confederation, and oppoaed to the appeal to the people, becauae I believe it to be perfectly uaeless. An hon. member who spoke yesterday told us that the clergy are not qualified to form a judgment on the project of Confederation. Now, I ask you, if the clergy are not qualified to form a judgment on such a ques tion, how the people can form one who have not the neceaaary education ? How can they comprehend the aggregate and the detaila of the scheme, and aacertain whether it would be beneficial to them or not ? I repeat that I am in favor of the project now under conaideration — firat, becauae I declar ed myaelf favorable to the meaaure when I preaented myaelf to my conatituents ; and, secondly, because I thiuk it necessary and even indiapenaable, and calculated moreover to promote the intereata of the country in general, and those of Lower Canada and the diatrict of Three Rivers in particular.-- (Cheers.) Mr. GAGNON — Mr. Speaker, the scheme of a Confederation of the provinces now before this Houae ia one too deeply intereating to be received in ailence. If I riae to apeak on thia occaaion, it ia for the aimple purpoae of juatifying my opinion on the subject, by stating my reasona for enter taining it; and aa I am not in the habit of making apeeches, I crave the indulgence of the Houae. It ia the opinion of members on the other aide of the Houae that the country will derive great advantages from this union ; but those advantages depend, as moat people think, on the contingenoiea of an unknown future, and by othera, are looked upon aa the doubtful reaults of a hazardoua and dangerous apeculation, which will in volve the ruin of our credit. Not only, Mr. Speaker, do we risk our capital, which wiU be loat in the execution of this great scheme ; 953 not only do we ruin, by this new union, the credit of our country, but we Lower Cana dians risk everything that is dear to us, even our nationality, while knowing that we can gain nothing by the change. As an inducement to Lower Canada to accept this Sbheme, we are promised a railway to open tip an intercourse of commerce with the LowerProvinces, and weare given to believe that this great commerce to be opened up by the grand line of communication will be a vaat benefit to ua ; but those who will take time to reflect may come to a different con clusion, without any danger of being mis taken, for thoae provinces have nothing to exchange with us. We have the same pro ductions -as they have, and in greater abundance than any of them. They have nothing but coal which we do not possess, and that is not transported by railway. This railway will, as a matter of course, lead to the expenditure of enormous sums for build ing it, and will afterwards cost us a great deal in repairs and working expenses, and after all, will only be of use as a substitute for a few schooners which carry down our produce to the Gulf Provinces every season. This, Mr. Speaker, will be a dear price to pay for the complete destruction of our little inland navigation, which ought rather to be protected. The amount of expenditure involved in the building of this railway, if wisely appUed to the opening of colonization loads, to the improvement of roads and bridges, and the clearing of the public lands, would be much more beneficial to the people of this province, who would find in these things a degree of satisfaction and happiness wbich would enable them to do without Confeder ation, which would be no cure for our poli tical troubles. A little more good-will and calmness in discussing the question, would have stifled the cry for representation based on population, and our country would have been able to go on under the actual union, which is less dangerous and less expensive than that which is now proposed by tbe Government. I should have had other re marks to offer, Mr. Speaker, but I am obliged to postpone them, as hon. membera must be worn out with their long*ittinga, and the lateness of the hour. (Cheers.) Hon. Mr. HUNTINGTON said— I do not intend, Mr. Speaker, to occupy the time of the House in any lengthened re marks ; and yet as a member representing a constituency of this country, I do not feel 121 dispoaed to give a vote on this question, without saying at least a word upon it. And it occurs to me — and I say it in the best spirit, and with no intention to cast a reflection upon honorable gentlemen opposite — that if there is so great a desire as appears to exist to-night on the part of honorable members to express themselves upon this question— many of them who are favorable to the scheme as well as oppoaed to it — and if it is found that the opportunity ia cur tailed, the reaponaibility does not at any rate rest upon this side of the House. (Hear, hear.) I do not, as 1 have said, propose at this late hour to enter at any considerable length into a discussion of this measure ; but there are points that present themselves to me as posaeasing considerable importance, that have not, I believe, been brought out during the progreas of the debate ; and if an opportunity is subsequently given for remarking upon them, I may avail myself of it. But I cannot forbear remarking now, in reference to the announcement made by the Government the other night, that in a certain sense I consider it was a step in the right direction. I believe it waa then atated that a misaion would be sent to England to consult with the Imperial Government with a view of arrang ing definitely the question of the de fence of this country, an.i the proportion of the cost of defence to be borne by the res pective countries. Now, without desiring or intending to occupy the time of the House by raising a debate upon thia point, I cannot help obaerving tbat it waa deaira ble, before thia acheme of Confederation waa adopted at all by the Couference, that this arrangefnent ahould have taken place with the Imperial Government — that it should have been preliminary to the plan of union propoaed, and that the Conference ahould have taken upon itaelf to arrange _ witb the Imperial Government the proportionate expenae whit;h ia to be borne by the two countriea in relation to the defence of theae provincea ; for, let it be borne in mind that thia queation haa been forced upon us in Canada aa the only meana of preparing the country against tbe aggression of our uei;);h- bora ; and yet wc are aaked in adopting this scheme, to go to a great extent in the dark. We are aaked to adopt it, and at the same time it is known that the result must be a change in respect to the proportion of de fence we in this country wUl be called upon 954> to bear. It haa been said that the diaposi- tion in England to take part in our defence waa owing to the fact that Canada had manifested a diapoaition alao to make pro viaion for defence. Now, auppoaing we should fail at any time hereafter to bear what may be conaidered in England a lair propor tion of this coat, what would be tbe conae quence ? Why, we might be placed again in preciaely the same poaition in whicb we find ourselves to-day. England might with draw her troopa from thia province, and refuae to eng-jge in auy defenaive works, unless we undertook more than in the opin ion of the people of thia country we are able to bear ; aud hence it is my opinion that if it waa deaiiable that this queation of Con federation should be submitted to the people at all fbr their adoption, the first and indis pensable step to have taken was to arrange with the Imperial Government the terms and conditions as regards the queation of defence upon which we are to enter thia new atate of political existence. In this sense I do not regret that the scheme, as far as the Lower Provinces are concemed — judg ing from recent events in New Brunswick and the utterances of public men in the other colonies— is likely tu be delayed in its aocompiisbment ; and 1 am not sorry that the Canadian Government, by this action of the Lower Provincea, will be compelled to conault with the Imperial authoritiea and arrange with them the proportion we are to bear of the coat of maintaining the defence of the country. (Hear, hear.) It may be almoat providential that we are compelled, by the torce of eircumatances in the Lower Provincea, to take this atep now; and I muat say that heretofore there iiaa beeu a diapoai tion manifested on the part of the Govern ment to keep the people in ignorance upon thia subject; but I truat that when theae negotiatiou,s shall have taken place with the Imperial Government, we shall know pre ciaely what the Government haa done and what it haa agreed to do, and that the exact proportion of expense that we are expected to bear will be laid before this Houae and submitted to the opinion of the people of this couutry. (Hear, hear.) I make theae remarka, sir, merely becauae to me the point appears to be a very important one, ana beoause 1 beUeve the fullest information will be indispensable to thia House in the future diacuaaiona that may take place upon this subject. (Hear, hear.) There is another point that haa suggeated ' itaelf, to which, perhaps, I may be permitted to allude in a few words. I wish to do so without reflecting upon any hon. member of this House ; but I cannot help feeling and expressing extreme regret, as a Canadian and a British subject, at the spirit that haa characterized this discussion upon Confeder ation and defence on the part of those hon. gentlemen who support this scheme. Sir, in a British Legislature, where it is proposed to build up a great monarchical constitution on this continent, on the model which has flourished in England, I rei.,ret that any honorable gentleman should have found it necessary to charge a seditious and disloyal intention upon all those who cannot agree with them in supporting this scheme. (Hear, hear.) For myself — I say it sincerely and earnestly, though I have boasted less of my loyalty and attachment to the British Crown and Constitution than some hon. mem bers of this House — I think I may say there is no one who loves more than I love the Brit ish constitutional system, no man who de sires more than I desire to see copied here that British constitutional-monarchical sys tem, and no man who believes more firmly than I believe that it would give to the people of these coloniea that greatness, proaperity and freedom that have distin guished the people from whom we have sprung on the other side of the water. (Hear, hear.) But if this debate is consid ered to be of sufficient importance to have a place among the records of the country— to go down to posterity as the serious utter ances of our pubUc men, I think it is a cause of deep regret that hon. gentlemen opposite, in view of that great patriotism of which they have boasted so much, and whioh they affirm has induced them to sink minor considerations of party and personal an tagonism for the sake of carrying a prin ciple of which they profess to be the disinterested and self-denying exponents, have not seen fit, in the disoussion of this question, to discuss it like statesmen, and not brand as infamous, traitorous and rebellious those who differ from them in their view of it. ( Hear, hear.) I think the people of this countrji, whether belonging to the Conser vative or the Reform party, will feel a deep regret at this ; and if there is one thing more than another that indicates that the present like past coalitions is going to result in ad vantage to the Conservative at the expense of the Reform party — if there is one thing more than another that makes me u.ir that 955 the Reform members ofthe Government, for whom I have a strong political as well as personal sympathy, will be overwhelmed by their conservative colleagues — ^it is this cry, this bugbear, this btte noire of annexation raised by hon. gentlemen on the other side of the House. Why, sir, it is only a few months since we had the great Constitutional party organized in this country, and baptized with an amount of eloquence and parade such as never attended th'e birth ofa party in any other country. We were told by the leaders of thia great Conatitutional party that the British Constitution in thia country must be defended; that the country was divided into two parties — the Annexation party and the Constitutional party — and that the reformers composed the former, while the conaervativea desired to perpetuate British connection. My hon. friend the member for Lambton was singled out for attack, and told that he and those with whom he acted desired to hand the country over to tbe Americans;' that he was unfaithful and untrue to his allegiance; that he carried the sign of democracy on his face ; and the whole Re form party was branded last summer by the Conservative leaders as annexationists, who desired to uproot and overthrow the British institutions of this country. Well, sir, what do we find now ? We find the same charges hurled at the minority in this House — my hon. friends who sit around me — by the leaders of this same great Constitutional party; and we find the Honorable Provincial Secretary, the Honorable Postmaster Gen eral, and the Honorable President of the CouncU— for all of whom, I confess, I yet feel a strong political sympathy — sitting silently by, while their old friends and for mer colleagues are suffering the same abuse that waa dealt out to them by their preaent colleagues only a few short months ago. Have they suddenly turned to view theae chargea as just, or do they still think, as they thought last summer, that they are unfair and unfounded ? If they were unfair then, is it right now that, without a word of expostulation, they should allow them to be hurled at us without a word of expostulation from the great Liberal party of Upper Canada, that has suffered with us from these disgraceful, foul and slanderous imputations ? (Hear, hear.) Is it liberal, is it just, is it fair, is it manly, sir, that they should now sit sUently by and see the handful who com pose the minority in this House — honorable gentlemen with whom, but a short time since, they acted and in whom they had confidence — branded, as they themselves were branded six months ago, with the name of annexationist and democrat? (Hear, hear.) I have thought, as I have heard these charges reiterated, that they might have interposed; I have thought they might have pitied us a little for the sake of former associations. I have thought that the great Liberal party of Upper Canada might have come a little to the rescue of their former colleagues, and said to thoae who uttered these falae accusations — '' Don't bound down these men too muoh ; we know and have acted with them : they are not annexation ists, they are not rebellious, and we know that your accuaationa against them are un fair and ungeneroua." But, air, throughout thia debate theae merabera ofthe Government have listened to attacka of this kind — the great Reform party of Upper Canada, which only yeaterday, aa it were, was smarting under the lash that is now cracked over our heads, which only yeaterday writhed under the odium of theso false representations — sat silently by, without a word of expostulation, without a word in defence of their old friends, whom they know tobe unjustly and slanderously accused. (Hear, hear.) Now, why I speak of this matter ia becauae I fear that these gentlemen, who have long been the exponents of that great Liberal party, which has gained for ua reaponaible govern ment and everything worth living for under the politioal syatem we now enjoy, will be overwhelmed by tbe preponderance of con aervative feeling in the Govemraent and coaservative influence in the country. I know that they do not feel comfortable under the present state of affairs. I know howtheMcKELLARS,theMACKENZiES,who have been so long the victima of conaerva tive sneers, and others who have long fought the battle of reform, must feel; but I fear that the conservative leaven ia about to leaven the whole lump. Mr. RYMAL— Except me. Hon. Mr. HUNTINGTON— My hon. friend, in the able speech' he made upon this subject, excepted himself, and there is no need for me to except him. I say, sir, it is but yesterday since the organs of hon. gentlemen oppoaite, who lead the Conatitutional party of this country, denounced ua all as Ameii- cana &,nd annexation-lata ; and I warn the hon. members of the Liberal party, who sit quietly by while these charges are still made against the minority, that tne measure which 956 is meted out to us now, and to them last suraraer, may again be dealt out to them without mercy. (Hear, hear.j I repeat, sir, I have, since thia Coalition took place, seen no sign so perfect and so convincing to me, that the conservatives bave had the best of the bargain, as this — to aee thoae hon. gentlemen aitting tamely and ailently in their aeata, and not rising to aay a word while the old cry under which they had writhed for ao many years ia fulminated against their former allies, and we havo no indication from them that they are not the party which they once were. With theae remarka,. and reaerving to myself the right of speaking more at length on the acheme, which I would be glad to diacuaa aomewhat fully if time bad been allowed, I have aimply to aay that the conatituency which I repre aent ia not disposed to permit me to vote for thia acheme. I aay thia from knowledge, having been compelled to be a good deal among them while attending to my buaineaa. In the Eaatjrn Townships, both among the French and English, the general opinion is strongly against thia acheme. I have had such opportuuitiea of learning the viewa aud wiahea of my conatituenta with reference to this matter, aa few other hon. gentlemen have enjoyei for learning tha opinion of tho.se whom they repreaent, and I come back to this Houae very much atrengthened in the conviction that in the Eaatern Town ahipa, and eapecially in the constituency whioh I represent — Mr, pope— Hear, hear. Hon. Mr, HUNTINGTON— The hon. raember saya " Hear, hear," but I think I may apeak in behalf of a large number of petitiooera in the county of Compton — (hear, hear) — there ia a large majority of the people oppoaed to thia acheme. I have felt it to be my duty, aa no one had riaen to apeak from the point of view I have taken, that I ahould aay a word for thoae who wore opposed to the acheme, and that aa there was no one here to apeak for the Eaatern Townshipa, where ao atrong a feeling per vaded the maaaea against the acheme, I would but discharge my duty in rising to state what I found to be tbe feeling ic thoae townahipa. (Hear, hear.) I have no doubt that the Conaervative party have large fol lowing in the Eaatern Townahipa, I have no doubt that a great many of thoae who follow the hon. member for Sherbrooke are diapoaed to foUow him in aupporting the achemej; but I apeak for the Liberal party of those townships, with whose opinions I have had an excellent opportunity of becoming acquainted. I do not say that the hon. member for Compton ia not sup ported by that party in the position which he has taken, but I do say that those people in the Eastern Townships, as a general thing, who sympathize with the Liberal party, are opposed to the scheme in the circumstances under which it has been pre sented to the people. I was not a little aurprised by a remark which fell from my hon, friend the member for Richmond and Wolfe (Mr. Weubj. I know perfectly well the hon. gentleman'a aincerity, and therefore I waa aingularly struck with the position he took. While he seemed to admit the gen- oral feeling of apprehenaion which prevailed, and the unpopularity of the scheme in the Townships, yet he wouid vote for the whole scheme, reserving to himself the right to deal with details. The scheme having been adopted by this House aa a whole, there ia no probability whatever of the honorable gentleman getting a chance to vote upon the detaila a aecond tirae. -Mr, WEBB — The resolutions have not been adopted, nor yet concurred in by the other provinces. Hon. Mr. HUNTINGTON— Well, I am apeaking of them as if they had been adopt ed. It makes no difference whether they are adopted or not in the other provinces for some time to come. So far as Canada is concerned, the scheme will be carried before thia Houae riaes, and there will be no further opportuuity of dealing with ita detaila. But auppose we ahould get the opportunity here after of voting on thoae details, in what posi tion would be my hon. friend from Richmond and Wolfe, or my hon. friend from North WeUington (Dr. JParker) — in what poaition would they stand when they rose to move amendments to reaolutions which they had only so short a tirae previously voted for ? Would they not be reminded by honorable gentlemen oppoaite that they had swallowed the whole bait, hook and line, bob and sinker ! (Laughter.) They say they wUl oppoae the detaUa in future ; but if the detaila are incorrect, and they believe so, and they aay they do, why not oppoae them now? It waa said by the honorable member for South Grenville (Mr. Shanly) that we ought to carry the whole scheme, let the details be ever so unsatisfactory, trusting to the Federal Legislature to detect and remedy thena hereafter. Now I think that Capada 957 hss had some experience in that way of doing things. Those detaila become vested right, and the aectiona benefited by them daim them as such, and tenaciously cling to them. (Hear, hear.) Mr. Speaker, I have not time to go into this subject at this point, and show how objectionable are many of the details ; but I maintain the position that it is most absurd and illogical to ask us to accept the scheme as a whole, and leave such objectionable details to be regulated hereafter. When the union of these pro vinoes took place in 1841, the discussion in lelation to it in the British Houses of Par liament showed that the framers of the Union Act expected that any difficultiea that might grow out of it would be easily regu lated by tho united Parliament of Canada — that such questions as representation by population could be dealt with at any time. But what happened ? Why ! Lower Canada treated equal representation as a vested right, and atood firmly on that right. Thia being the case, there waa no process provided by which the evil could be regulated. The result waa that a great struggle came on, the difficulties arising out of which, honorable gentlemen opposite tell ua, have proved our Conatitu tion to be a failure. From thia experience of the paat, we ought to learn that it ia very bad policy to deliberately put errors in our Constitution aud truat to the future to remedy them. If you speak of a union of all Brit ish North America, nobody objecta. Every body ia in favor of a union, provided the details are aatiafactory; but providing imper fect details and trusting to the future for rendering them what they ought to have been made at the outset, reminds me of an incident a friend related the other day. 'A carter was about to take a friend of mine with hia baggage to the railway station, when my friend observed that one of the tugs waa nothing but a piece of rope. Saya my friend, "You are not going to take me through theae twenty milea of woods with that string, are you?" "Ohl never mind," says he,. "I have more strings in my pocket with which I can regulate thaton theroad." So hon. gentlemen on the 'Treasury benchea aak ua to follow them in their rickety concern, asauring us that they have a pocketful of strings with which they can regulate things on the way. (Laughter.) But, sir, they will find no little difficulty in bringing their pocketful of stiings into operation. They will flnd almost insurmountable difficulties in the way of re moving the vested rights that will grow up under any system that may be established. I believe that a number of circumstances connected with this scheme, a disoussion of which I cannot now go into, render it the general opinion of thoae whom it is my busi ness to represent on this floor, that in its present ahape thia scheme ought not to be carried into effect. First of all, so sweeping a measure as this — -one for sweeping away our entire Constitution and substituting a new one unknown to the Britiah flag — ought not to be carried out until it ia s-abmitted to the people; and, secondly, the multitude of details which it embraces ought to be calmly and critically considered, with a view to their amendment, where found defective, be fore being incorporated in our Constitution. I do not say that this is the feeling of the Conservative party of my own constitu ency, or of the Eastem Townships ; but I do say that even among that party there are grave apprehensions of diffi culty growing out of such a jumble as is presented for our adoption, when no time is to be allowed even for their con.sideration, to say nothing of their amendment. And many of that party have no hesitation in giving expression to those feelings. I have not met with a man, conservative or re former, during my absence from thia aession of the Houae, who haa not been ready to contend that it waa the firat duty of the Government to provide for conaulting the people, and aacertaining from them, in a definite manner, whether they desired the change proposed or not. (Hear, hear.) Having thus briefly expressed ray views, Mr. SiEAKER, in order not to weary the Houae at thia late hour of the night — or rather of the morning, for it ia now after three o'clock — I will conclude by stating that I feel it my duty, as a true represent ative, to record my vote againat the reaolu tions. (Cheers.) Mr. cowan — Mr. Speaker, the honor able member for Shefford says that he and his frienda syrapathised with the Reform party of Upper Canada when they were branded as rebels and writhing under the charge of dis loyalty, and blames us for not extending the same sympathy to him and his friends when laboring under a similar accusation. I don't deny, sir, that the reformers of Upper Can ada have often been branded as rebels, but I do most emphatically deny that they ever writhed under the false aoousation. Conscious of their fealty to both their Queen and coun try, they treated with the most sovereign con- 958 tempt every such foul, unfounded imputation against their loyalty. And I would advise the hon. member for Shefford to keep equally cool under similar provocation. If he and his friends are really loyal — and I have no doubt they are — all such aspersions of their loyalty, instead of affecting them, will only recoil on the heads of their accusers. Mr. T. R. FERGUSON said — Feeling and knowing as I do, Mr. Speaker, the great desire that is felt by the honorable gentlemen on the Treasui-y benches, and also, I am ready to admit, by the large majority of the honor able members of thia Houae, that discussion should not be continued unnecessarily, and that no obstructions should be thrown in the way of an iraraediate decision on the question before us, I beg to state that it is not from choice but from necessity, that it is not from any desire of self-gratification, but from a deep sense of duty, that I rise to say a single word upon this occasion, particularly as so much has been said, and as the night is now so far advanced. I hope, therefore, that as I have remained silent during the debate up to the preaent moment, the Houae will bear with me while I briefly expreaa my views on tbis all- important matter, and assign a few of the reasons that induce me to record my vote in the manner which I design. Sir, I would say that I stand here in a different position from that of many honorable members who submitted the resolutions embodying the Confederation scheme to their conatituenta, and who held public meetinga on the aubject, and who received from them poaitive inatruc- tions aa to how their vote ahould be recorded. I received a circular from the Government, marked "Private," but took no action to aacertain public opinion on its contents, so that I am, I regret to say, without a single word of advice as to how I should act in the matter. I may say, air, that after reading the reaolutiona over again and again, I found many thinga in them that I could not endorae. I felt that they were not that which we had expected from the Government, wben we gave our aaaent to the Coalition that waa forraed for the purpoae of bringing down aome pro poaition for the aettieraent of our aectional difficulties. I had expected that if a union of the coloniea took place at aU, and a change of our Conatitution in that direction was pro posed, we would not have had a Federal but a Legislative form of Government. It haa been stated, since we had the pleasure of meeting together in the present session, that the honorable gentlemen who went to the Conference to represent Canadian views, and engage in preparing a scheme of union, could not obtain' that union without its being based upon the Federal system. Sir, 1 feel that this is very much to be deplored, as I believe that with a union based on the Fed eral syatem, we shall have constant dissen sion, and before very many years, if this acheme goea into operation, we shall again have agitations for constitutional changes of various kinds, and that the ultimate result must be a perfect union under one Legisla tive Govemment for the whole c.iuntry, and that now was the best time to settle the mat ter finally. If in the end, however, that^ should be the result of the long diacusaion we have had upon thia Conatitution, then I ahall feel that though no amendmenta have been allowed on the floor of thia House, yet the discussion has been productive of aome good purpoae. (Hear, hear.) I had resolved upon offering amendments upon various pointa in the scheme before us, but the motion for the " previous queation " haa shut them out, which I very much regret. It is too late now to enter into an explanation of theso several amendments I was about to move, or to state what I contemplated accomplishing by pro posing them. It is aufficient for me to say that the previous queation having been pro poaed, I feel that there haa not been that op portunity for tbe full conaideration of the acheme in all ita parta that waa expected, or that ought to have been given to thia Houae, in view of the fact that tlie people are not to be consulted in any other manner than by a vote of their representatives. (^Hear, hear.) Being one of those, sir, who earnestly sought for a constitutional change, and who joined in the very just complaint of Upper Canada that she was compelled to labor under great grievances — the lack of equal rights with l/ower Canada on this floor, man fbr man, while she also contributed much the larger proportion of the revenue — it is needless for me to say that I earnestly desired some change, that I sympathized with the pre vaUing sentiment of Upper Canada, and used my best endeavors, in the House and out of it, to assist in bringing about a remedy for oui- political and sectional iUs. But, sir, we found we could not get repre sentation according to population ; and since the present scherae was announced, and know ing the strong feeling which exists against it on tbe part of many of the Lower Canada members, I endeavored to ascertain, on com ing down here, the opinion of hon. gentlemen 959 from Lower Canada, and I found that, not withstanding their opposition to the scheme of Confederation, which they were wUling to do almost anything to defeat, they were still per sistent in denying to Upper Canada a single shadow of a hope that her grievances would be redressed, if this scheme were rejected, by the granting of representation according to population. (Hear, hear.) Before coming here, too, I entertained the opinion that those hon. orable gentlemen from Upper Canada, who had fought so long and so uselessly for repre sentation according to population, would join with me in endeavoring to get an amendment to the soheme before us adopted, giving us a Legislative instead of a. Federal union. I soon found out, however, that there was little hope of getting such an amendment carried, because nine-tenths of them were determined to accept the scheme as it stood, simply be oause their leaders were in the Government. (Hear, hear.) My hon. friend the member for Shefford (Hon. Mr. HuNTiNaTON), com plains of this measure being forced upon the country ; but if there is one hon. gentleman more than another chargeable -with bringing about thia atate of affairs, it is that honorable gentleman. He once held a high and honor able position in'the Government of this coun try. He is possessed of great ability, and being highly popular with hia conatituents, could weU have afforded to have lent a help ing hand to those who were desirous of hay ing the union as it was work satisfactorily. I am satisfied that when he held the reins of power, if he was so anxious for the good-wUl, as well as for the reputation of the great Pro testant and Reform party of Upper Canada, and so desirous of maintaining and protecting the rights which he now desires to have given to his friends, he would have used his power in the Government and his eloquence in the House to obtain even-handed justice for Up per Canada, and to relieve his friends in that portion of the province from tho difficulties under which they labored. But, inatead of doing that, he joined a Government that de nied its members the privilege of voting for representation according to population — - a Grovemment that made it a cloae question, and which, instead of dealing with it as they ought to have done, or even giving us reason to hope well of the future, took such a courae in relation to that great queation as left a dark and dismal future before those who had been struggling for their rights on that ques tion. As regards the position of that Govern ment, after it was reconstructed, I believe I am right in saying it was thoroughly under stood that its members were not to vote for it. Hon. j. S. MACDONALD— No ; they were to vote as they liked. Mr. FERGUSON— WeU, whatever may have been their privilegea, we all know that there was nothing done in the matter, al though they might have aeen that it would be better to cOme out honestly and say that even-handed justice should be done to both Upper and Lower Canada. As this was 'i,y impression, Mr. Speaker, and seeing that no change could be made in the Constitution that would benefit Upper Canada, I felt I had a duty to perform — I felt that if they would not give us a change in the mode we desired, it was not for me to aay that I would play the part of the dog in the manger. I feel it would be better to have almost any scheme, than to endure the difficulties we had labored under for so many years paat ; and I told the honorable gentlemen from Lower Canada that if that were the course they were to puraue, they would change my mind to a consid erable extent. Another thing which had a peculiar effect on my mind, was the report of Col. Jervok on the defences of our country. It is imposaible for me to deny that the speeches which have been made in the Eng lish Parliament, expressive of a want of sym pathy with the Canadian people, and of a desire to get rid of Canada, have not been pleaaant to me ; and although I think I have a loyal heart, and am bound by powerful obligations to maintain British supremacy, I find it hard that English atateamen ahould express a wil lingness to shake us off and leave ua in the power of a foreign nation. (Hear, hear.) But Col. Jervois waa sent out to ascertain what defencea were necesaary, and what could be done to defend thia country if at an unfor tunate moment a difficulty might ariae. When I aee that hia report declarea that we have a difficult country to defend — that it would take a large number of men to put ua into a condition to defend ouraelvea — and when I see that the British Government, true to its real mstincts, is resolved to aid us in our de fence—this, I say, bas a great effect upon my mind, and makes me think it would not be my duty, under the circumstances, to refuse assent to the Government measure at a mo ment when I feel that the livea and property of my conatituenta, 30,000 in number, are open to an attack at any time from the pow erful armies a foreign people might choose to bring up against them. (Hear.) The acheme aeems to me to be an expensive and trouble- 960 some one ; but I do not think it would be right for me to reject any meaaure calculated to enaure to ua that assistance of which we stand so muoh in need. The United States are, perhaps, more willing to injure their neighbors than other countriea are, owing to the univeraal idea that they muat carry out the Munroe doctrine of complete domination over at leaat the American continent. They are at this moment a war-making and a war- loving people. For four years they have been practising the art of war upon their own flesh and blood, and have shown little sympathy with those who have been in con gress with them and jointly concerned in every great enterprise — who grew with their growth, and strengthened with their strength ; and I feel that they would have very little sympathy indeed .with us in the event of any trouble arising either between us and them, or between them and the Mother Country. We are in a very difficult poaition. The Araericans have done a great deal to provoke the wrath of England and to inault Canada. At thia moment they want to abrogate the Reciprocity treaty, and talk of doing away with the bonding ayatem. They lately im poaed a paaaport ayatem, which haa only juat been removed. Well, seeing that there was uo redreas for the grievancea of Upper Can ada, one Miniatry falling after another with- 3ut doing anything, and viewing our condi tion relatively to the United Statea, I feel it my duty to forego oppoaition to thia new ar rangement. When I aaw the telegraphic des patch, too, relating to the debate in the Houae of Lorda a few daya ago ; when I saw that there people were so interested in Canadian affairs, that on the question being put in the House of Lords it was declared by the leader ofthe Houae that no atepa ahould be taken reapecting the Hudaon'a Bay Company until aome information ahould be received from Canada reapecting ihe Confederation syatem ; when I found that they were willing to be with ua in peace and with ua in war ; when they aaid '' Help youraelf and we will help you" ; when they aaid, in language atronger than worda can convey, " Not a hair of your head ahall be touched without return ing the injury tenfold," I felt that we muat support these new reaolutiona. (Hear.) I do not think, with my honorable friend who spoke to-day, tbat in three yeara there will be a cry for annexation. I think that in three yeara we ahaU be a stable people — that in three yeura we ahall have aufficient defences to resist aggression — that in three years we shall have risen in the estimation of England and the world at large — that our boundariea will extend from Canada to the Red River and the Saskatchewan. I agree with another honorable gentleman who has spoken to-day, and do not desire to see the young men of this country sent away into another country, when we have spacious limits of our own. I deaire to keep our young men among ua, and our old men too, as long as they live. (Hear, hear.) When I think that England ia going to do much for ua in other respects, I think ahe wiU be wiUing to open up that country ; ahe -will not be an unkind mother to ua, and demand from her children that, when ahe haa placed us in 'a poaition of difficulty, we ahould bear all the burdena. I believe, however, that we ought to put our ahouldera to the wheel and do aomething for ourselves. That is the true spirit of Britons ; for if we did not, we should be open to inault — and inault ia worse than injury. Rather thau have to bear with it, I am willing to risk the consequences of even a larger debt than we yet have — to give some of the means that I posaess ; and in aaying and acting thua for myaelf, I am apeaking and acting for my conatituenta too, who aent me here without any other pledge or bond than that I should do for them the best I could. I have made this the land of my adoption, and it is evident that any injury I impose on their chUdren I impose on my own too. (Hear.) Whatever may be the result of the scheme — and I trust it will not turn out so badly aa aome hon. gentlemen aeem to expect, and which I much dreaded myaelf — I truat we shaU have such arrangements made with the Maritime Pro vinces, if arrangements are made with them, that we ahall have a real union — not union mixed with diaunion. (Hear, hear.) I be lieve that in the courae of the aummer we ahall aee millions of Britiah capital apent here for our defence, and I see clearly that we shall have to contract debt for this purpose our selves. But we have another duty to per form : we have to prepare the strong-hearted yeomen of this country to man our fortiflca tions. England cannot supply us with aU tbe men and money necessary to defend the province — that is the duty of our young men, and our middle aged men too. If we do not perform this duty, we shall not be worthy of the name of a people, not be worthy of the rights, liberties and privileges we enjoy. I will not detain tbe House much longer ; but I must say that oue remark I heard addressed I to this Chamber to-day, seemed to me very 96 1 uncharitable. This House wiU believe me when I say that I was as much astonished as othera to see a Government formed, composed of men of different parties ; but, sir, I came to the conclusion that the state of parties at that time, and the conduct of some so-called frienda of the Ministry then in power, led to such an event ; aud I do not blame the Con servatives who were in that Government for taking in other gentlemen, if by that course they could advance the interests of the coun try. I have heard it said that some mem bers of the present Government were actuat ed in entering that Government by tbe greed of office, its emolument and its power ; but I will not be so uncharitable as to make such an accusation against them. I believe they auffered a good deal personally in making the arrangement, and I should be sorry to say they did it for any other object than to satisfy the obligations of their conscience. Their object, sir, was, no doubt, the good of the country, not the small gain or the temporary pleasure of holding for a few years the po sition of Ministers. (Hear.) I trust they will discharge their duty as Ministers in such a way as to enable the people of the country to regard their advent to power with satisfac tion — ^not to condemn them for wrong-doing as traitors to their country. (Hear, hear.) I think, sir, there are Ministers in the Cabinet who could make far more money in the pur suit of their various avocations than in gov erning the country, and I trust they wUl be as economical as they can in all their expen diture, whUe not losing sight of one great aim —that the people of this couutry must be pre pared to defend themselves, so as not to be afraid of the threats and alarms thatreachus every day. If in the end we arrive at a union of the colonies, good results will flow from it. I think we have no evil results to fear, though I would at this moment, if I could, remedy some of the faults in these seventy-two reso lutions. I am sorry, for instance, for one thing— that the clause relating to the general education of the people of this country was inserted in its present shape into the resolu tions. I am sorry the separate school system is to be retained for Upper Canada. I am sorry that bone of contention is to be incor porated into the permanent Constitution of this country. Though 52,000 Roman Ca tholio chUdren in Upper Canada attended school in 1863, no more thp,n 15,000 of them ever availed themselves of the separate schools. A VOICE — You are wrong. Mr. FERGUSON— No, I beg the honor- 122 able gentleman's pardon, I am not wrong. I take the figures of the Superintendent of Education, Dr. Ryerson. And of my own knowledge, in places where separate schools have been established and are stiU existing, the Roman Catholics have grown weary of them, and I am satisfied they would now be willing that their children should get their education along with the children of the rest of the community, without any fear that their respect for their own religion would be inter fered with, or their consciences injured. (Hear, hear.) I trust the day will come when they will all take the right view of it, and the question with them with reference to education maybe — not -what church they belong to — but how their children may receive the best education, and grow up with other youth in peace and harmony. I regret that the subject is mentioned in these resolutions. I had a resolution prepared on that matter, as well as another with regard to our canals, and I am sorry I have not had an opportunity of moving them. I trust, however, that the assurances given by the Honorable President of the Council will be carried out, and that a canal and a direct and unbroken communication from Lake Huron to Quebec will be an ac complished fact at no distant day. The peo ple of Western Canada wUl be diaaatiafied and bitterly disappointed if the honorable gentle men on the Treasury benches neglect tbis ; and if they do, tbey may rest assured that another cry will come, by and by, from Upper Canada which will remove them from their seats, as others have been removed from those seats before. (Hear, hear.) While money contributed by the west is spent in the cast, we insist that the improvements necessary for tbe prosperity of Upper Canada sbould also receive the attention of the Government ; and there is not a man in Upper Canada who doea not aee the necesaity of having our navigation improved and a aufficient channel for sea going vessels made to the seaboard. If this is attended to, there will not be so much to complain of about the Intercolonial Rail road being built, although wo should like to have it buUt at a cheaper rate. In conclusion, I would say, that notwithstanding all the objections I may have to detaUs— yet, in view of tbe relations in which we stand to the neighboring country— the urgency of the defence question, and the threatening aspect o-enerally of our present position, I take upon mvself, though with great reluctance the responsibility of voting for this scheme. (Cheers.) 962 The House then divided on the motion for the previous question, " That that question be now put," whioh was agreed to on the following division : — Yeas — Messieura Alleyn, Archambeault, Ault, Beaubien, Bell, Bellerose, Blanchet, Bowman, Bown, Brousaeau, Brown, Burwell, Cameron (Peel), Carliug, Attorney General Cartier, Cart wright, Cauchon, Chambers, Chapais, Cockburn, Cornellier, Cowan, Currier, De BoucherviUe, Denis, De Niverville, Dickson, Dufresne (Mont calm), Dunsford, Ferguson (Frontenac), Fergu son (South Simcoe), Galt, Gaucher, Harwood, Haultain, Higginson, Howland, Irvine, Jackson, Jones (North Leeda and Grenville), Jones (South Leeds), Knight, Langevin, LeBoutillier, Attor ney General Macdonald, MacFarlane, Mackenzie (Lambton), Mackenzie (North Oxford), Magill, McConkey, McDougall, McGee, McGiverin, Mc lntyre, McKellar, Morris, Morrison, Pope, Pou lin, Poupore, Rankin, Raymond, R6millard, Robitaille, Rose, Ross (Champlain), Rosa (Dun das), Ross (Prince Edward), Scoble, Shanly, Smith (Eaat Durham), Smith (Toronto Eaat), SomerviUe, Stirton, Street, Sylvain, Thompaon, Walsh, Webb, Wells, White, Willson, Wood, Wright (Ottawa County), and Wright (Eaat York).— 85. Nayb — Messieurs Biggar, Bourassa, Cameron (North Ontario), Caron, Coupal, Dorion (Drum mond and Arthabaska), Dorion (Hochelaga), Duckett, Dufresne (Iberville), Evanturel, Fortier, Gagnon, Gaudet, Geoffrion, Gibbs, Holton, Houde, Huntington, Huot, Joly, Labreche-Viger, Laframboise, Lajoie, Macdonald (Cornwall), Macdonald (Glengarry), Macdonald (Toronto Weat), O'Halloran, Paquet, Parker, Perrault, Pinsonneault, Pouliot, Powell, Eymal, Scatcherd, Taschereau, Thibaudeau, Tremblay, and Wall- bridge (North Hastings). — 39. The queation being put on the main motion (of Hon. Mr. Attorney General Macdonald), it waa agreed to on the following diviaion : — Yea3 — Messieurs Alleyn, Archambeault, Ault, Beaubien, Bell, Bellerose, Blanchet, Bowman, Bown, Brousseau, Brown, Burwell, Cameron (Peel), Carling, Attorney General Cartier, Cart wright, Cauchon, Chambers, Chapais, Cockburn, Cornellier, Cowan, Currier, De Bouoherville, Denis, De Niverville, Dickson, Dufresne (iUont- calm), Dunsford, Evanturel, Ferguson (Fron tenac), Ferguson (South Simooe), Galt, Gaucher, Gaudet, Gibbs, Harwood, Haultain, Iligginaon, Howland, Huot, Irvine, Jackson, Jonea (N. Leeds and Grenville), Jonea (South Leeds), Knight, Langevin, Le Boutillier, Atty. Gen. Macdonald, MacFarlane, Mackenzie (Lambton), Mackenzie (North Oxford), Mafrill, McConkey, McDougall, MoGee, McGiverin, Mclntyre, McKellar, Morris, Morrison, Parker, Pope, Poulin, Poupore. Pow ell, Rankin, Raymond, R^millard, RobitaiUe, Rose, Ross (Champlain), Ross (Dundas), Roaa (Prince Edward). Scoble, Shanly, Smith (East Durham), Smith (Toronto Eaat), Somerville, Stirton, Street, Sylvain, Thompson, Walsh, Webb, Wells, White, Willson, Wood, Wright (Ottawa County), and Wright (Bast York).— 91. NAva — Meaaieura Biggar, Bourassa, Cameron (North Ontario), Caron, Coupal, Dorion (Drum mond and Arthabaska), Dorion (Hochelaga), Duckett, Dufreane (Iberville), Fortier, Gagnon, Geoffrion, Holton, Houde, Huntington, Joly, Labreche-Viger, Laframboise, Lajoie, Macdonald (Cornwall), Macdonald (Glengarry), Macdonald (Toronto We'st), O'Halloran, Paquet, Perrault, Pinsonneault, Pouliot, Rymal, Scatcherd, Tas chereau, Thibaudeau, Tremblay, and Wallbridge (North Hastings).— 33. The House then adjourned. Monday, 3Iarch 18, 1865. Hon. Atty. Gen. MACDONALD— When the House was about to adjoum on Friday night, it waa arranged that we ahould finish to-day the proceedings connected with the Address. I therefore now move ; — That a select committee, conaisting of Hon. Meaara. Attorneys General Macdonald and Car- tier, and Galt and Bkown, and Mesara. Robi taille and Haultain, be appointed to draft an Addreas to Her Majesty on the resolution agreed to on Friday laat, the 10 th instant, on the subject of the union of the coloniea of British North America. HON.^ J. H. CAMERON— Before that motion la carried, I propose to move — as I think this ia the proper time — ^the resolution of which I gave n otice some days ago. I therefore now desire to put into your hands, Mr. Speaker, seconded by Mr. M. C Cameron, that resolution, which is aa fol lows : — That all the worda after " That " be left out, and the following inaerted inatead thereof : "an humble Addreas be presented to His Excellency the Governor General, praying that His Bxceh lency, in view of the magnitude of the interests involved in the resolutions for the union of the colonies of British North America, andthe entire change of the Conatitution of this province, will be pleased to direct that a conatitutional appeal ahall be made to the people, before these resolu tions are aubmitted for final action thereon to the consideration ofthe Imperial Parliament." I underatood the-other day that it was the intention of the Hon. Attorney General West to raise a question as to the propriety 963 of moving this resolution at the present stage of the proceedings. I desire to know whether it is still his intention to raise that objection, because, if it is, I should confine myself in the first place to arguing that point. Hon. Atty. Gen. MACDONALD— I do object. But I do not mean to enter into any argument, but merely to ask the decision of the Speaker on the point of order. The SPEAKER— Having learned that the point of order was to be raised, I have looked into*the matter, and decide that the resolution is in order. Hon. Mr. CAMERON— Then, I will proceed to offer to the House the obser vations which I think it necessary to make, as well on the general subject as on the particular matter embraced in this motion. And as the House is aware that I very rarely trouble it with a speech on any mat ter, unlesa I conaider it to be one of impor tance, and that when I do I aeldom detain hon. membera at any conaiderable length, I trust they will bear with me in those ob servations. Conaidering the length of time that the subject has been discuaaed, and the great deaire that exiata in the mind of every one to have thia subject brought to a con clusion aa rapidly as possible, I promise on this occasion to be brief. I have already, so far as my own individual vote in this House is concerned, done exactly what I would have done if I had only been an elector called upon for his vote. We have pronounced upon the resolutions submitted to the House, and I have shewn my own conviction of their pro priety by having voted in their favor ; and if I were to exercise my franchise as an elector, I would do outside the House what 1 have done inside the House, and declare in favor of those resolutions, though not satisfied that the scheme for the Confeder ation of the provinces would be so advan tageous as the larger scheme of a legislative union. But I have always fait that if you desire to obtain something which you believe for the benefit of the country, you should not insist upon that which is impossible — that which cannot be carried, but should endeavor to obtain that which you can fairly reach, and by and by you may get that which, at a far diatance, seems impossible. (Hear, hear.) I believe the -Confederation ofthe colonies wiU lead hereafter to a legis lative union. The only difficulty I have felt 18, that I bcHeve it would bave been infin itely better if all the powers given to local governments should also be given to the General Government, so that when the time came — when all those smaller stars should fall from the firmament — the General Gov emment would possess all those powers, and there would be no necessity then for framing a new Constitution. This subject, I think, may be fairly considered under three aspects. First, as regards the necessity of a change in the Constitution at all. Secondly, as regards the nature of the change proposed, and how it will affect the interesta involved in it. And, thirdly, as regards the propriety of the measure being submitted to the people, before it is finally enacted by tbe Imperial Legislature. As to the first points — the necessity of a change — I believe there are very few people in the country, in -whatever part of it they may be found, who will be prepared to say that some change in the Constitution of the country has not become necessary. I believe we are all satisfied that things cannot go on as they are now. I believe we are all satisfied that the people are looking out for some alteration, by which they hope a greater amount of prosperity may come to the country, than that wbich has been around it aud about it for some years past. I am firmly convinced in my own mind — against the opinions of one or two hon. gentlemen, who stood up bere the other night — that there has not been, since the union of these provinces, a greater amount of depression, a greater want of feeling of prosperity throughout the whole western portion of Canada, than exists there at this moment, I believe that iuto whatever part of the country you go, you will find that a succession of bad crops, and the difficulties which have arisen from large sums of money having been borrowed at high interest, and the necessity of large remittances to England — that all these have pressed heavily on the energies of the people, and tended to paralyse them; and they are looking out, therefere, in every direction, with the best hopes they can conjure up, for some change or alteration, such as they believe will place them on a better footing than that which they have hitherto occupied. (Hear, bear.) The Hon. President of the Council for many years past, with a great number of those who have always beeu in the habit of acting with him, has believed that if we obtained, in the western portion of Canada, represen- 964. tation by population, it would have great influence in stimulating the energies of the people, and placing them on a much more satisfactory footing than that on which they now stand. I am satisfied, with that hon. gentleman, that it would have had tbis effect to a very great extent. But we know very well tbe antagonisms whicb exiated be tween the' two sections, and that that mea sure, while preaaed by Upper Canada, waa reaiated by Lower Canada. We have felt — and no doubt many in Lower Canada have fclt-^that thia Con-federation of tbe British North American Coloniea would probably not have reached the point it haa reached, had the demand,? — the juat demanda — of Upper Canada been conceded by Lower Cauada; had we been placed in that poaition on the floor of thia House, which we thought the interesta of the western portion of Canada required at the handa of the Legialature. (Hear, hear,) Bat we have not found that that waa done. Lower Canada felt that if repreaentation by population were conceded, there would have been dangera incurred to her own institu tiona, which she was not willing to place in the hands of the increased number of repre sentatives from Upper Canada. I think the people of Lower Canada were miataken in that feeling. I do not believe that her inatitutiona would have been dealt with in a way unsatiafactory to her people. 'The peo ple of Upper Canada, I think, have alwaya been prepared to do what waa fair and juat towards the people of Lower Canada. (Hear, hear.) I have no doubt, however, that the people of Lower Canada would be much more ready to take up such a scheme as thia, which would give them a Local Legialature to manage their own local affairs, rather than adopt a measure wbich would place them in what they might conceive to be an inferior posi tion in point of their numbers on the floor of this Houae, and an inferior poaition in reapect of power — auppoaing repreaentation by population in the united Legialature of Canada were carried. There can be no doubt that the idea that there is a necessity for change haa not only grown up from the feeling to which I have referred, but from the circumatancea connected with our rela tiona to the neighboring republic during the laat three or four years. Tbe Recipro city treaty was passed ten years ago, at a time when the value placed upon the Ca nadas by the neighboring country waa v(!ry different from that now placed upon them — when the stateamen of the United Statea believed the effect of that measure would be gradually to ripen the pear of this country, until it would be prepared to fall into their hands. And, unquestionably, the views of many of those who consented to the Re ciprocity treaty, at the time of their con senting to it, were that they expected that its effect would be gradually to facilitate the passage of these colonies into the arms of the United States — to create a feeling in favor of anaexation, and to check the feel ing which was springing up of an entirely opposite character. But now there is no doubt that the disposition to abrogate the Reciprocity treaty has not arisen alone from angry feelings against England by the people of the United States, and in con sequence of the fancied raida from this country — but also from the fact that there haa been a great preaaure of taxation upou themselves, and the necessity of raising the tariff, and from the belief that if a tax were placed upon the produce coming in to them from Canada, an increaaed revenue would re ault. All these eircumatances have given rise to the desire on the part of the people and the Government of the United States to place this queation on a different footing from that on which it haa atood for ten yeara, and to repeal that treaty which they repreaent to be entirely in favor of Canada, though in point of fact it is very largely in favor of the United States. (Hear, hear.) Another reason why a change ia neceaaary, ia — aa we cannot conceal from ourselves — that our position as a colony has been greatly altered by the events which have taken place in the United States. We cannot now expect that wc can ait with our arma folded, praying that Providence may be good to ua, though we do not prepare to defend ouraelves. We cannot expect that England will be prepared to take on her shoulders almost the whole of the burden, and that we are to be neither the hewers of wood nor the drawers of water. We must be both. And if we obtain, as I hope, through the rosolutions which have been passed, when the proper time comes, we will obtain — if we get the name and status of a nation, we should not be afraid also to take the responsibilities of a nation ; and the course most likely to save us from attack is that we should learn in the time of peace to be prepared for the exigency of war, and to put ourselves — a people of four millions, as we will be when united together — in a posi- 965 tion to defend our liberties from whatever quarter they may be attacked. (Cheers.) We cannot therefore help seeing that a ne cessity exists for this change, a necessity urged upon us, both by our political position, with reference to the state of the representa tion in Parliament, and by the position in which, in common with the colonies below, we stand w'th reference to the probab ilities of hostilities from the United States, and the placing of the country in a proper state of defence. The necessity of change then being admitted — and I believe there is scarcely one honorable gentleman on either side of the House who does not admit it — aome think that change should be brought about in one way, some think that it should be brought about in another way. Some think — and the Hon. President of the Council at one time ap parently was of that opinion — that the most desirable change would be the smaller' scheme ofthe Federation of Canada, divided into two or three provinces — that that would be the best way of averting the evils which threaten ua. Some believe we can go on as we are now. Hon. j. S. MACDONALD — Hear ! hear! Hon. Mr. CAMERON— And others think that the only way by which we can get into a satisfactory position, would be by a union of the colonies, either in accor dance with this scheme, or by a legislative union. I would like to know how many there are who believe that we can go on as we are now. Hon. Atty. Gen. - BIACDONALD— Hear ! hear ! Hon. Mr. CAMERON— I beUeye there are not a half a dozen members of this House who beheve that, with the difficulties of our position, we can work the union on present terms. If we cannot, then we have the alternatives of tbe dissolution of the union — going back to the old position we occupied belore the union, which no man would entertain for a moment — or a Federation of the Canadas — or this larger scheme of a union of all the British North American Colonies. If any one fer a moment will consider all those projects in the true view in which they ought to be considered, he will see that with ref ;rence to the second branch of my subject — the nature of the change, and the magnitude of the interests involved in it — this scheme is the one to which the Leg'sla- turc and the people pf this country must necessarily come. (Hear, hear.) We are desirous of assuming a position on this con tinent, which will place the whole of these feeble colonies under one united government . And when that united govemment is form ed, when that union does take place, we shall then stand in a position which, accord ing to the facts and figures that have been used from time to time in tbis debate, will establish us as a power on this continent, and enable us to assist in working out the three problems presented by the three gov ernments — the despotic government of Mexico, the republican government of the United States, and the constitutional gov ernment of these colonies. (Hear, hear.) I trust the result would be, that we should see the government of these colonies stand ing longer than any of the others, inasmuch as we believe it is based on the more free exercise of the true will of the people, and carries out institutions which in the Mother Country have stood the test of time, toil and wear, until they have become more firmly cemented now than at any former period of their existence. (Hear, hear.) And I cannot help feeling that if there is that necessity for a change, the nature of the change proposed must commend itaelf to every one who ia a true lover of his country on this side of the Atlantic. (Hear, hear.) We are five colonies with a population of 1,000,000, and we shall have a debt of about $80,000,000, or about $20 for each inhabi tant. In tbe neighboring repubUc, from a statement made at the close of last year, we leam that the debt in that country, on the firat of July next, wUl be no leaa than about S150 on the head of every inhabitant. Hence our young nation, with a debt of only $20 upon each inhabitant, wUl stand in a position, in reference to debt, far different from what the people of that country wiU stand. Let us take a glance over tbc whole of the Britiah Colonial Empire. England has thirty-eight colonics, containing ten mUUons of people. Six milliona of theae are white and four mil lions are black. Of the six mUUons of white people, four millions are inhabitants of these British American Colonies. We have for Canada, Nova Scotia and New Brunawick, no less than five mUlions of tons' capacity of sea-going vessels, and on the lakes seven millions, making a total tonnage of twelve millions, which, in point of tonnage, places us as the third power in the world. No other nations but England and the United States possess a larger tonnage than that. 966 Nova Scotia itself has a larger tonnage than the great empire of Austria. If this is to be our poaition in relation to our population, our debt and our tonnage, one cannot well help seeing that we must strengthen our selves by coming together in a political and commercial union. We have now five inde pendent, and I may say hostile tariffs — a different one in each of the coloniea ; and we have five different governments. We will then have one strong independent government, and one system of customs taxation. Although \ve shall not have the same concentrated power that we would have in a legislative union, still we shall have a power that will hold over this country that great force that must be possessed to enable it to bring the whole military force of the country to bear in case its defence becomes necessary, and which will place us in a much better position than ever before. Look at the whole of the colonies of England, and let us inquire whether, in point of the magnitude of the trade they bring to England and the amount of En}>liah goods they consume, compared with the expenditure that England is called upon to make, there is really any valid found ation for the position taken by those political economista of England, of the Mancheater and Birmingham school. Take the whole of the exports of England to the coloniea, and her importa from thoae coloniea, and what do we find ? The exports of England last year amounted to nearly £190,000,000 sterling, while the expoits from the colonies to Great Britain amounted to £40,000,000 sterling. Place the colonists, man for man, with foreign countries, and you will find the trade of the colonies is of much more advan tage to England than that of foreign nations, independently of all those other great interesta which are involved in the retention by Eng land of her colonial poaaesaiona. Take the fact that the whole of England's expendi ture ia £10,000,000 sterling, exclusive of the intereat of the national debt, while her ex penae for colonial purpoaea annually, excluaive of India and ofthe caaual expenses ariaingfrom sending troops to coloniea where hoatilitiea are taking place, was only some £2,000;000 sterling, of which amount Canada only had but little more than £500,000 sterling. When these things are taken into consider ation, I say it will be fouud tbat the colonies are of muoh more value to the Mother Country than is generally supposed, and muoh more than the school of politicians to which I have referred would have people believe. If what the Mother Country obtains from our connection with them is of so little importance as to give currency to the doctrines of tbat school, I do not think it would be hard to shew that what we get from our connection with Great Britain is of no very great importance to us, . except in the matter of defence. If we desire to live under the glorious old flag, and to maintain the honored name of British subjecta, ia it right for our brethren in England, who are " free from touch of spoil,'' to aay that unleaa we provide for our own defence, we ahall be cast off? We should be looked upon aa dialoyal if we took the same stand, and dec'ared that we would choose our own connection if we provided the whole expense of our defence. (Hear, hear.) Sir, I think we should be able to tell the Mother Country that we are prepared to do aU in our power for self-defence. When I have stated that the debt of Canada ia only $20 per head, and that that of the United Statea will aoon be, if it ia not now, $150 per head of the population, I am ready to say that I would moat unheaitatingly be willing, for the pur poae of completing our connection with the aeaboard, of building the Intercolonial Rail way, and avoiding the liability we now labor under, of having our connection with Great Britain cut off. I aay I would be willing to place $10 additional upon every inhabitant of the country, in order that we might be placed on the true footing on which we ought to atand in the estimation of the people of England and of the world — that of a people who do not conaider the mere aacrifice of money aa anything to be compared to the duty of defending themaelvea. (Hear, hear.) Sir, I think that when a delegation of our Government goea to England, those who compose it ought to be able to say what we are prepared to do for our defence. They ought to be able to say to the English Govemment that although we were a young and a comparatively poor country ; though we have a rigorous climate and are shut out from the sea for a great portion of tbe year, yet we are a people tbat have shown moro than once that our liberties could not be taken away from us by force of arms, and we are not prepared that they shall be taken in any other way, but that we are ready to take our just share in any scheme that the Mother Country may adopt; but we are not prepared, and cannot be expected, to take the whole burden of defending this exposed portion of the, British Empire upon 967 ourselves, Look at our bonds in the English market. The British public are under the apprehension that we may at any moment be invaded by the United States, or that the views of the Manchester school may prevail, and our 5 per cents stand at 80. The position of the United States along our long exposed border is such that in their present excited and ready-armed condition we might be plunged into hostili ties at any moraent, and therefore our Government ought to say to the Imperial G-overnment that it was absolutely necessary to make arrangements for defence on a large scale— that we are prepared to do that which we ought to do, but you cannot expect us to go to the whole of the expense which would be entaUed by the depreciation of our bonds in the market. If we are to do so, or even to go to any large expense, you must guarantee our debentures. With the knowledge that you are our security, we need not care whether the United States is going to cross our border with hostUe intent or not. If our neighbors know that any requisite amount will be given us either upon your loan or upon endorsement, so that our bonds will stand on tho market at par, they wUl have reason to think twice before attack ing ua. When the Engliah Government are prepared to back ua in that way, then I say we ought to go forward and coiiperate with them in carrying out an extended aystoin of defenaive worka, bearing at leaat the prin cipal portion of the burden. We do not care for their apending £50,000 a year in drib- hling up afew fortifications at Quebec, while we put another smaU sum out in patching up earth works in the west, just to invite the Americana over when the worka are half built, forming a trap for ouraelves in which we may be more effectually caught. I am sure every member of this House, and every citizen of Canada must have been surprised at the position taken by Engliah statesmen in reference to Canadian defences, and at their speaking of there being only a few days m the year in which men could work, in this climate, in building fortifications. I read the other day, that it had been stated in England that there was only a month of the year that men could work out of doors to advantage. Although it ia true that for about half the year our communication with the aea ia cut off by the formation of ice, yet men can work out of doors in Western Canada aU the year round, and during the other half in Eaatern Canada, and with the exception of a few very stormy days, at one or another branch of the work required in erecting fortificationa. But ao far as guarding against attack from the United States is concerned, the great thing is to let them know that, whether we spend the money im mediately—this summer— or not, we have it to spend. It should be known that both the Imperial Parliament and the Pro vincial Parliament have voted the money, and that it would be put into the most approved fortifications as rapidly as it could be. The people of the South soon built fortifications, behind which to fight for their Uberties, and we too should be prepared to fight for our liberties. It is to the money they spent in fortifications that they owe their existence as a formidable power at the preaent time. The idea should not go abroad that we are about to spend a little matter of fifty or a hundred thousand pounda in doing a little plastering here and a little mason work there, but we should proceed as rapidly as possible to show that we are prepared to expend in effective works all the money that may be necessary to put ouraelves in a condition to resist invasion, even with a handful of troops, until more can be sent us. As we are at pre aent, the Govemment of the United Statea feel that we are at their mercy, and that thoy can deal with ua aa they pleaae. To-day they impoae an obnoxioua paaaport aystem upon us, and to-morrow they relieve us from that source of annoyance. To-day they threaten us with a repeal of the Reci procity treaty, and to-morrow will, perhaps, be prepared, if we are good children, to continue its operation. To-day the bonding system is to be repealed ; to-morrow we hear no more of it. Next we hear of tboir inten tion of placing aforce of gunboats on the lakes, and then we hear that the intention has beeu abandoned. What are all those fair pro mises they indulge in, and good feelings they endeavor to call up, but blinds of tbeir real purpose ? Does anybody believe that it is not in their hearts to do all those things with which they threaten us, and is it not our duty to be prepared to meet the conse quences of their threats being carried into execution ? They now seo that we are being aroused in this country, and they begin to treat us more mildly, until they corae to some settlement with the South. They be gin to see that they have acted aggresaively againat this paw of the British lion a little too soon — that the British lion is in danger 968 of being waked up. (Hear, hear.) And, Mr. Speaker, I think it would be a good thing if we wero a little more aroused in this country by the events that are trans piring about ua, and that the people of England should become a little more in earnest, so that the people of the United States should not fall into the habit of regarding the British lion, as the Paris Charivari called it, as a stuffed liOn. I sometimes wish the British lion would roar — (laughter) — as it has roared in times past, and as it roared when it made the Emperor of all the Russias tremble in his shoes. (Hear, hear.) I am afraid our neighbors are getting into the very false notion that it is only the skin of the animal that we have now — (laughter) — and that if the voice were heard, it would not be a roar, but a bray. But they must not truat too much to thia idea, or they will be rudely awakened aome day by finding the bones, and the blood, and the muscle of the mighty old animal of yore. I feel, sir, that we cannot do our duty to the Iraperial authorities, nor they to us, unless we becorae united into one Confeder ation, instead of reraaining in the scattered position in whieh we now atand. What would be our poaition if we wero thua united ? The opponents of Confederation say we ahould only get a more extended frontier to defend, and have no more men to defend it with ; that the frontier -we should acquire would be more difficult to defend with the addition of men we would acquire, than our present frontier would be to defend with our own force ; that Canada might be called upon to aend troopa to the Lower Provincea, thua leaving our own frontier expoaed, or they would have to aend their militia force up here, leaving their bordera open to attack. But, in reply to that reaaoning, I would aay that it is not likely we ahould be attacked at all pointa at once. We might be compelled to withdraw entirely from one portion of the territory in order to defend more important portions, or to obtain more defenaible poai tiona ;_ but no man can heaitate to agree that it is infinitely better, fer all purpoaea of defenaive action, that the whole militia force of the country ahould be under the control of one executive head, who could graap the whole force in one hand, than that they •should be acattered over a wide domain of exposed territory, under the command of different executives, all of whom would have to be communicated with before any concen tration could take place. The true position in which we should stand before tbe world is, that the whole militia force should be understood to be under the control of one Central Government; for in that way, common sense ought to tell everybody, they would be of far more value in defense than tbey could possibly be if divided, and the moral effect produced upon a foreign power contemplat ing attack would be very greatly enhanced, were it understood we were one united people, instead of being a divided commu nity. Our entire population would be four miUions of people, which, at the ordinary rate of computation, would give us an avail able militia force of five hundred thousand men. If we believe tbat our people are really and truly a loyal people, warmly attached to the Constitution of the good old land, because believing that the engrafting of the institutions of that country upon the soil of this continent offers the best and greatest security for every man who desirea to enjoy the blessings of a free country and free institutiona, then we would, if united, have not only thia sentiment of attachment to tbe English Throne, but we would have the machinery, which this great Constitution provides, in our hands by whioh we could carry out and defend our liberties and our people in the enjoyment of their free consti tutional government. (Hear, hear.) Our opponents .aay we are hardly ripe, hardly of age fit to enter upon a new nationality. Why, sir, there are none of the lesser powers of Europe, except Belgium and Bavaria, that have a population of four millions. If we cannot establish a nation when we have four milliona of people, what ahall we say of Greece with its population of only one mil lion ? If we are ever to form ourselves into a nationality — and few will deny that it is our destiny to be united at some time — what bet ter time will ever be likely to present itself for handing down to poaterity the boon of a united and free nation — the greatest boon that a government and people can transmit — than the opportunity which the present favorable state of affairs presents to us ? It is offered to us freely and openly in the face of the world, and we hope to con vince the world hereafter that of the three systems of government now in existence on this continent, burs is the best. We have the despotic throne of the Montezumas filled by a foreign prince, and propped up by foreign bayonets ; we have the republican government of the United States, based on the principle that all men are free and equal 969 and that the will of the majority must govern and be right ; and we have tho responsible go-vernment provided by the British Constitution, under which the English nation has existed so long, and beneath the protection of which her colonies have spread out, until upon their wide expanse the sun never goes down. (Cheers.) This latter form of government we believe to be the best we can adopt for present pur poaes, and for the purpose of transmission to our descendants upon this continent. 3Ir. Speaker, if .we have institutions, popula tion, wealth and territory of such extent and of such immense value to protect, and have the opportunity of uniting for their protection so freely given us, then is the end sought to be accomplished by the change that cannot but commend itself most clearly and distinctly to the mind of every one who desires to see a united and happy people inhabiting the tcTritory of British North America, and stretching from- ocean to ocean, under the protecting segis of the Britiah Con¬atitution, the British form of government, and the British Crown. We have, in my own humble opinion, but two future Btates of existence to choose for ourselves. We have, on the one side, the opportunity to make ourselves a nation, able and willing to protect ourselves, with the aid of the Mother Conntry, and to grow wealthy and prosperous under that form of existence. On the other hand, we have the certain prospect of absorption, at no distant period, into the Uni ted States. There is no alternative. (Hear, hear, ironically.) We must either adopt the one or make up our minds to submit to the other. I have no doubt but that an immense number of the people would not be willing to remain and submit to the latter alternative, but like the eld U. E. loyalists, would even abandon all they possessed rathsr than cease to have the protection of the British flag, and bear the name of British men — men in whom loyalty is not a mere lip sentiment, but in whom it forms as much a constituent element of the blood as the principle of vitality itself (Hear, hear.) I am satisfied, sir, that there is no otber alternative — no choice for us between the endeavor on our part to concentrate British power and British feeling on this continent, and falling into the open arms of the republican govern ment of the United States. (Hear, hear^J And, Mr. Speaker, when we examine the extent of the domain open to us, when 123 we reflect that we would rest with one foot upon the broad Atlantic and the other upon the Pacific, and remember the vast, fertile and salubrious territory that lies between us and the Rocky Mountains — those rich valleys ofthe Saskatchewan and tho Assini boine, the fertility of which are said to be far superior, and aro cerlainly equal to any portion of this country — when wo think of them aud of the vast number of people that could be poured iuto them from the old world to develope their resourcea and bring their treasures down the lakes to our marts — I say when we see all theae thinga, we see a future ariaing for us which ia to me, and ought to bo to othera, so bright that no man should heaitate to accapt that rather than the only other alter native — drifting in amall provinces into the United States, where we cannot but Le borne down by their burden of taxation. (Hear, hear.) But some people say we will ' escape taxation by going over to the Araeri cans ; tbat they would take us in to-morrow, and agree to put no taxation upon us for their war debt ; but is not tbat idea chimer ical, when they entertain no doubt that they can overrun and conquer us at any time, and force us to share in their debt, as well as discharge our own? With re gard to our prospects in the way of settle ment and the extending of our .population and wealth, look at what we could do towards attracting emigrants from the old country to our lands. But here^I muat refer to one feature of the scheme that haa been adopted by thia Houae that I hope to see changed. I believe it ia a fatal error to place the wild landa in the handa of the local governments, who may thereby enter into reguhitions for immigration that will be antagoniatie, and that will tend to retard rather than promote the settlement of this country. All those landa ought to have been placed in tbe hands of the General Government, in order that cne comprehen sive system of immigration mightbe adopted. When we look at Upper Canada, and ascer tain that of her eighty millions of acres there are only thirteen and a half milUons in the handa of proprietora — an average of nine acrea to each inhabitant — when we aee the vaat quantity of land in tbia country avail able for cultivation, not yet turned to account, we cannot help coming to the concluaion that wo have a vaat field for immigration to fill up, and which pught to have been placed under control of J;he General Governmentr— i? 970 not left to be speculated upon by the local governments. Now, sir, when one sees all that,' and feels and knowa that the great change which will be brought about by thia union will give ua ao many thinga that are deairable, I aay the magnitude of the intereata that ate involved ought to recom mend to ua, in the strongest manner, a change of the character of which I have been apeaking — a change that would tend to place thia country on auch a footing that none can fail to aee that we would even tually become the membera of a great community, and that in a rauch ahorter apace of time than many people imagine. (Hear, hear.) Allow me for a moment, air, to allude to the hiatory of the United Statea, to see the position in which that country once stood. In 1792, the United Statea, with a population, at that time, of nine milliona of people, bad a revenue of a little over four and a-half milliona of dollars, while in Canada, in 1863, with a population of two and a-half milliona, we had a revenue of fourteen milliona of dollara. In 1821, when their population had greatly increaaed, ' the whole of their exporta and importa amounted to ninety-eight milliona of dollara, while oura, in 1863, with a population of only two and a-half milliona, waa no leaa than eighty-nine railliona of dollars ; that ia, within riine railliona of the entire importa and exporta of the United Statea in 1821. It i.- true that aince that time all thoae facili tiea which have made the United Statea a great pSwer on thia ountinent — the con atruction of railwaya and telegrapha, the application of ateam power to all kinda of machinery, and other inventions of the paat two or three decades — have sprung into existence, and they have reached for ward to greatneaa with railroad speed. But, atill, it ia nothing againat the argument to aay that ua we have, within the memory of man, riaen ao rapidly not only in popula tion, but in everything that tenda to place Canada on a footing that ought to be aatia factory to every well-wiaher of hia country, there ia any reaaon to imagine, for one mo ment, that all the changea have been made that will be made, and that with the enter priae and exertiona of a common and enlight ened people, we will not be in a poaition to continue the proaperity that haa aprung up within so short a time, and which bas increased until within the last three or four years, when, from natural causes and the war in the Unitecl States, it reoeiyed ao serious a check. We shall find ourselves, in my opinion, so soon on the highroad to prosperity, by means of the union now con teraplated, that we shall not care to envy the progress of any nation whatever. (Hear, hear.) Now, sir, when I have stated my reasons for believing that there is a neces sity for such a change, and having en deavored to show the nature of the change proposed, I shall now proceed to show why the reaolution which I hold in my hand, and which I offer for the adoption of this House, ia one that ought to be accepted. I have aaid, air, that I, as an individual meraber of the Legislature of Canada, had not hesitated io take upon myself the responsibility of votinr in favor of the resolutiona reapecting Confederation, although they had not been accepted by the people of this country in any constituticnal manner, I aaid that I did so upon the aame principle as I would have done if I had been voting upon them outside of the House instead of inside. I would have voted for them as an elector, be cause I believe they form a just basis for the conteraplated union ; and, sir, I desire to offer exactly the same opportuuity to every elector to pursue the same courae that I would pursue, and I raake the aame claim on their behalf tbat I would make to this House on my own. I think that they are entitled to have thia matter aubmitted for their conaideration be fore the reaolutions that have passed this House are finally acted upon by the Imperial Legialature. (Hear, hear.) Now, sir, it has been aaid that the effect will be to postpone the accomplishment of the union for an in definite period, whereas the pressure of cir cumstances are such that no time ahould be loat in placing ouraelvea in such a position of defence that we should be able to meet and bold back any force that might be aent against us. Well, sir, there is nothing in the reaolution I have proposed that would, in my judgment, interfere with the imme diate carrying out ofthe project. The Gov ernment have told ua that they propose to prorogue Parliament in a few days, and they have also told ua that we are to be called to gether again in the aummer. What ia to prevent ua from conaidering the aubject at the summer session ? It ia to be preaumed tbat the Imperial Government will endeavor to come to aome concluaion upon the resolu tions which have been framed by the Con ference, and which have been laid on the tables of both Houses of the English Pariia- jqaonti} a»