r.**.-^- »^*'^*'>'"-' -' -'^ ,«";«^"^w*.» !'*■.>*}-•".»-■ ^-^ •7.«r.--r>'*r^-'^-^.' THE UNIVERSITY ^-■:.-.aT^: OF ILLINOIS LIBRARY The person charging this material is rt snons ble tor its return to the hbraiy Iron. Xh it was withdrawn on or before the Latest Date stamped below. Theff, mutilation, and underlining of books are reasons for disciplinary action and may result in dismissal from the University. ^r ,,iiKir.i<; IIBRARY AT URBANA-CHAMPAIGN UNIVERSITY OF ILLINOIS LIBKAKT %^W1$7'» L161 — O-1096 vV A PROCEEDINGS ARBITRATION BETWEEN THE WESTERN RAILROADS AND THE BROTHERHOOD OF LOCOMOTIVE ENGINEERS AND THE BROTHERHOOD OF LOCOMOTIVE FIREMEN AND ENGINEMEN Submitted to Arbitration, under the Act of July 15, 1913 By Agreement Dated August 3, 1914 CHICAGO, ILLINOIS Nov. 30-Dec. 10, 1914 Testimony Nos. 1-9 Pages 1-890 Vol. 1 LAW REPORTING CO., OFFICIAL REPORTERS 115 Broadway, New York. 1101 Ashland Block, ChicasTO LIST OF WITNESSES. Witness Date Page M. W. Cadle Nov. 30 47 Cross Examination Dec. 3 193 Ke-direct '' '' 4 328 Walter D. Moore Dec. 1 104 Cross Examination '' 1 146 Ee-direct '' '' 1 167 Ee-cross '' " 1 '172 Ee-direct '' " 1 174 W. S. Carter Dec. 3 345 Cross Examination " 4 384 Ee-direct '' " 4 419 Eecalled " 7 469 Cross Examination " 7 559 Ee-direct " " 8 603 Ee-cross '' '' 8 658 Ee-direct " " 9 698 Ee-cross " '' 9 736 Ee-direct '' " 9 744 Samuel T. Steinberger Dec. 4 424 Cross Examination ''4 450 Ee-direct '' '' 4 456 Ee-cross '' " 4 465 Ee-direct '' " 4 466 John C. Goulding Dec. 10 766 Cross Examination '^ 10 776 Ee-direct " ''10 779 A. Skog Dec. 10 785 Cross Examination " 10 790 Ee-direct " "10 795 Ee-cross " "10 796 Ee-direct " "10 798 Ee-cross " "10 801 J. J. Burns Dec. 10 814 Cross Examination " 10 822 304'3!H 11 Witness |)at(' Mni Ion A. hviX 1)('C. 1(1 Tross Kxaminntinn " l(i ]\\'-tliroot •' •• 111 C. Ii'. D. .lonos [)vc. 10 Cross Kxaniiiiatioii " 10 Ke-diroct ** " in Ro-oross • • ' • 10 Pa«i:e 84;J 847 853 857 870 887 888 i.is'i' ()!•' i:\iiii;i'rs. EmTLOVKs' 10x11 IBITS. Nuiiilier Witness Date 1 Nov. 30 - Moore Dec. 1 Carter Dec. :', 4 Steinl)er;j:er Dec, Carter Dec. .> rar (i b k ( t i 5 * k 9 4 i 10 ii 11 a 12 i:? 14 15 ir, i < ii i i i < < < ( ( ii I i i i 4 7 7 ^ 8 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 10 Page 47 105 :u6 425 470 554 555 028 714 745 751 751 751 755 756 857 »v AN ACT Providing for Mediation, Conciliation, and Arbitration in Contro- versies Between Certain Employers and Their Employees Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, That the provisions of this Act shall apply to any common carrier or carriers and their officers, agents, and employees, except masters of vessels and seamen, as defined in section forty-six hundred and twelve, Revised Statutes of the United States, engaged in the transportation of passengers or property wholly by rail- road, or partly by railroad and partly by water, for a continuous carriage or shipment from one State or Territory of the United States or the District of Columbia to any other State or Terri- tory of the United States or the District of Columbia, or from any place in the United States to an adjacent foreign country, or from any place in the United States through a foreign coun- try to any other place in the United States. The term ''railroad" as used in this Act shall include all bridges and ferries used or operated in connection with any railroad, and also all the road in use by any corporation operat- ing a railroad, whether owned or operated under a contract, agreement, or lease ; and the term ' ' transportation ' ' shall include all instrumentalities of shipment or carriage. The term "employees" as used in this Act shall include all persons actually engaged in any capacity in train operation or train service of any description, and notwithstanding that the cars upon or in which they are employed may be held and operated by the carrier under lease or other contract: Pro- vided, however. That this Act shall not be held to apply to employees of street railroads and shall apply only to employees engaged in railroad train service. In every such case the car- rier shall be responsible for the acts and defaults of such employees iii the same manner and to the same extent as if said cars were owned by it and said employees directly employed by it, and any provisions to the contrary of any such lease or other contract shall be lunding only as between the parties thereto and shall not affect tlie obli^yations of said carrier either to tlie j)ublic or to the jirivate ])arties concerned. A eonnnon carrier sul),iect to the provisions of this Act is hereinafter referred to as an *'eni])loyer," and the enijiloyees of one or more of siicli carriers arc liereinafter referred to as "(Mnployees." Sk(\ 2. That whenever a controversy concernin<>- waives, hours of labor, or conditions of em])loynient shall arise between an employer or emi)loyers and employees subject to this Act inter- ruptini>- or threatenini^' to interrupt the business of said employer or employers to the serious detriment of the public interest, either ])arty to such controversy may apply to the Board of Mediation and Conciliation created by this Act and invoke its services for the purj^ose of l)ringing- about an amicable adjust- ment of the controversy; and u])on the request of either party the said board shall with all ])racticable expedition put itself in connnunication with the parties to such controversy and shall use its best efforts, by mediation and conciliation, to bring them to an agreement ; and if such efforts to bring about an amicable adjustment through mediation and conciliation shall be unsuc- cessful, the said board shall at once endeavor to induce the par- ties to submit their controversy to arbitration in accordance with the provisions of this Act. In any case in which an interru])tion of traffic is imminent and fraught with serious detriment to the public interest, the Board of Mediation and Conciliation may, if in its judgment such action seem desirable, proffer its services to the respective ])arties to the controversy. In any case in which a controversy arises over the meaning or the application of any agreement reached through mediation under the ])rovisions of this Act either ])arty to the said agree- ment may apply to the Board of Mediation and Conciliation for an exi)ression of o]union from such board as to the meaning or application of such agreement and the said board shall upon receii)t of such request give its oi)inion as soon as may be ]irac- ticable. Sec. 3. That whenever a controversy shall arise between an em]>loyer or employers and em]^loyees subject to this Act, which can not be settled through mediation and conciliation in the manner provided in the preceding section, such controversy may 3 be submitted to the arbitration of a board of six, or, if the par- ties to the controversy prefer so to stipulate, to a board of three persons, which board shall be chosen in the following manner: In the case of a board of three, the employer or employers and the employees, parties resi)ectively to the agreement to arbi- trate, shall each name one arbitrator; and the two arbitrators thus chosen shall select the third arbitrator; but in the event of their failure to name the third arbitrator within five days after their first meeting, such third arbitrator shall be named by the Board of Mediation and Conciliation. In the case of a board of six, the employer or employers and the employees, parties respectively to the agreement to arbitrate, shall each name two arbitrators, and the four arbitrators thus chosen shall, by a majority vote, select the remaining two arbitrators; but in the event of their failure to name the two arbitrators within fifteen days after their first meeting the said two arbitrators, or as many of them as have not been named, shall be named by the Board of Mediation and Conciliation. In the event that the employees engaged in any given con- troversy are not members of a labor organization, such em- ployees may select a committee which shall have the right to name the arbitrator, or the arbitrators, who are to be named by the emploj^ees as provided above in this section. Sec. 4. That the agreement to arbitrate — First. Shall be in writing; Second. Shall stipulate that the arbitration is had under the provisions of this Act ; Third. Shall state whether the board of arbitration is to consist of three or six members ; Fourth. Shall be signed by dulj'^ accredited representatives of the emploj'er or employers and of the employees ; Fifth. Shall state specifically the questions to be submitted to the said board for decision ; Sixth. Shall stipulate that a majority of said board shall be competent to make a valid and binding award ; Seventh. Shall fix a period from the date of the appoint- ment of the arbitrator or arbitrators necessary to complete the board, as pro\'ided for in the agreement, within which the said board shall commence its hearings ; Eighth. Shall fix a period from the beginning of the hear- 4 ings within which the said board sliali make and file its award : Provided, That this period shall be thirty days unless a different period be agreed to ; Ninth. Shall ])rovide for the date from which the award shall become effective and shall fix the period during which the said award sliall continue in force ; Tenth. Shall provide that the respective parties to the award will each faithfully execute the same; Elleventh. Shall ])rovide that the award and the papers and proceedings, including the testimony relating thereto, certi- fied under the hands of the arbitrators, and which shall have the force and effect of a bill of exceptions, shall be filed in the clerk's office of the district court of the United States for the district wherein the contro^'ersy arises or the arbitration is entered into, and shall be final and conclusive upon the parties to the agree- ment unless set aside for error of law apparent on the record; Twelfth. May also provide that any difference arising as to the meaning or the application of the provisions of an award made by a board of arliitration shall be referred back to the same board or to a sul)committee of such board for a ruling, which ruling shall have the same force and effect as the original award; and if anv member of the original board is unable or unwilling to serve another arlntrator shall be named in the same manner as such original member was named. Sec. 5. That for the purj^oses of this Act the arbitrators herein provided for, or either of them, shall have power to ad- minister oaths and affirmations, sign sul)poenas, require the at- tendance and testimony of witnesses and the production of such books, ]iapers, contracts, agreements, and documents material to a just determination of the matters under investigation as may be ordered by the court; and may invoke the aid of the United States courts to compel witnesses to attend and testify and to i)roduce such books, papers, contracts, agreements, and documents to the same extent and under the same conditions and penalties as is provided for in the Act to regulate com- merce, approved February fourth, eighteen hundred and eighty- seven, and the amendments thereto. Sec. 6. That every agreement of arbitration under tliis Act shall l)e acknowledged by the parties thereto before a notary public or a clerk of the district or the circuit court of appeals of fj the United States, or before a member of the Board of Mediation and Conciliation, the members of which are hereby authorized to take such acknowledgments ; and when so acknowledged shall be delivered to a member of said board or transmitted to said board to be filed in its office. When such agreement of arbitration has been filed with the said board, or one of its members, and when the said board, or a member thereof, has been furnished the names of the arbitrators chosen by the respective parties to the controversy, the board, or a member thereof, shall cause a notice in writing to be served upon the said arbitrators, notifying them of their appointment, requesting them to meet promptly to name the remaining arbi- trator or arbitrators necessary to complete the board, and ad- vising them of the period within which, as provided in the agree- ment of arbitration, they are empowered to name such arbi- trator or arbitrators. When the arbitrators selected by the respective parties have agreed upon the remaining arbitrator or arbitrators, they shall notify the Board of Mediation and Conciliation; and in the event of their failure to agree upon any or upon all of the necessary arbitrators within the period fixed by this Act they shall, at the expiration of such period, notify the Board of Mediation and Conciliation of the arbitrators selected, if any, or of their failure to make or to complete such selection. If the parties to an arbitration desire the reconvening of a board to pass upon any controversy arising over the meaning or application of an award, they shall .jointly so notify the Board of Mediation and Conciliation, and shall state in such written notice the question or questions to be submitted to such reconvened board. The Board of Mediation and Conciliation shall thereupon promptly communicate with the members of the board of arbitration or a subcommittee of such board appointed for such purpose pursuant to the provisions of the agreement of arbitration, and arrange for the reconvening of said board or subcommittee, and shall notify the respective parties to the controversy of the time and place at which the board will meet for hearings upon the matters in controversy to be submitted to it. Sec. 7. That the board of arbitration shall organize and select its own chairman and make all necessary rules for con- ducting its hearings ; but in its award or awards the said board shall confine itself to findings or reconunendations as to the questions specifically submitted to it or matters directly bearing thereon. All testimony before said board shall be given under oath or affirmation, and any member of the board of arbitra- tion shall have the poAver to administer oaths or affirmations. It may employ such assistants as may be necessary in carrying on its work. It shall, whenever practicable, be supplied Avith suit- able quarters in any Federal building located at its place of meeting or at any place where the board may adjourn iot its deliberations. The board of arbitration shall furnish a certified copy of its awards to the respective parties to the controversy, and shall transmit the original, together with the papers and proceedings and a transcript of the testimony taken at the hear- ings, certified under the hands of the arbitrators, to the clerk of the district court of the United States for the district wherein the controversy arose or the arbitration is entered into, to be filed in said clerk's office as provided in paragraph eleven of sec- tion four of this Act. And said board shall also furnish a certi- fied copy of its award, and the papers and proceedings, includ- ing the testimony relating thereto, to the Board of Mediation and Conciliation, to be filed in its office. The United States Commerce Court, the Interstate Com- merce Commission, and the Bureau of Labor Statistics are here- by authorized to turn over to the Board of Mediation and Con- ciliation upon its request any papers and documents heretofore filed with them and bearing upon mediation or arbitration pro- ceedings held under the provisions of the Act approved June first, eighteen hundred and ninety-eight, providing for media- tion and arbitration. Sec. 8. That the award, being filed in the clerk's office of a district court of the United States as hereinbefore provided, shall go into practical operation, and judgment shall be entered thereon accordingly at the expiration of ten days from such filing, unless within such ten days either party shall file excep- tions thereto for matter of law apparent upon the record, in which case said award shall go into practical operation, and judgment be entered accordingly, when such exceptions shall have been finally disposed of either by said district court or on appeal therefrom. »v At the expiration of ten days from the decision of the dis- trict court npon exceptions taken to said award as aforesaid judgment shall be entered in accordance with said decision, un- less during said ten days either party shall appeal therefrom to the circuit court of appeals. In such case only such portion of the record shall be transmitted to the appellate court as is neces- sary to the proper understanding and consideration of the ques- tions of law presented by said exceptions and to be decided. The determination of said circuit court of appeals upon said questions shall be final, and, being certified by the clerk thereof to said district court, judgment pursuant thereto shall thereupon be entered by said district court. If exceptions to an award are finally sustained, judgment shall be entered setting aside the award in whole or in part ; but in such case the parties may agree upon a judgment to be en- tered disposing of the subject matter of the controversy, which judgment when entered shall have the same force and effect as judgment entered upon an award. Nothing in this Act contained shall be construed to require an employee to render personal service without his consent, and no injunction or other legal process shall be issued which shall compel the performance by any employee against his Avill of a contract for personal labor or service. Sec. 9. That whenever receivers appointed by a Federal court are in the possession and control of the business of em- ployers covered by this Act the employees of such employers shall have the right to be heard through their representatives in such court upon all questions affecting the terms and condi- tions of their employment; and no reduction of wages shall be made by such receivers without the authority of the court there- for, after notice to such employees, said notice to be given not less than twenty days before the hearing upon the receivers' petition or application, and to be posted upon all customary bulletin boards along or upon the railway or in the customary places on the premises of other employers covered by this Act. Sec. 10. That each member of the board of arbitration created under the provisions of this Act shall receive such com- pensation as may be fixed by the Board of Mediation and Con- ciliation, together with his traveling and other necessary ex- penses. The sum of $25,000, or so much thereof as may be necessary, is liereby appropriated, to be immediately available and to continue available until the close of the fiscal year end- ing June thirtieth, nineteen hnndred and fourteen, for the neces- sary and proi)er expenses incurred in connection with any arbi- tration or with the carrying on of the work of mediation and conciliation, including pei- diem, traveling, and other necessary expenses of members or em])l()yees of boards of arbitration and rent in the District of Columbia, furniture, office fixtures and supplies, books, salaries, traveling expenses, and other neces- sary expenses of members or employees of the Board of Media- tion and Conciliation, to be approved by the chairman of said board and audited by the pro])er accounting officeis of tho Treasury. Sec. 11. There shall be a Commissioner of Mediation and Conciliation, who shall be appointed by the President, by and with the advice and consent of the Senate, and whose salary shall be $7,500 per annum, who shall hold his office for a term of seven years and until a successor qualifies, and who shall be removable by the President only for misconduct in office. The President shall also designate not more than two other officials of the Government who have been appointed by and with the advice and consent of the Senate, and the officials thus desig- nated, together with the Commissioner of Mediation and Con- ciliation, shall constitute a board to be known as the United States Board of Mediation and Conciliation. There shall also be an Assistant Commissioner of Media- tion and Conciliation, who shall be appointed by the President, by and with the advice and consent of the Senate, and whose salary shall be $5,000 per annum. Tn the absence of the Com- missioner of Mediation and Conciliation, or when that office shall become vacant, the assistant commissioner shall exercise the functions and perform the duties of that office. Under the direction of the Commissioner of Mediation and Conciliation, the assistant commissioner shall assist in the work of mediation and conciliation and when acting alone in any case he shall have the right to take acknowledgments, receive agreements of arbi- tration, and cause the notices in writing to be served upon the arbitrators chosen by the respective parties to the controversy, as provided for in section five of this Act. The Act of June first, eighteen hundred and ninety-eight. 9 relating- to the mediation and aihitration of controversies be- tween railway companies and certain classes of their employees is hereby repealed: Provided, That any agreement of arbitra- tion which, at the time of the passage of this Act, shall have been executed in accordance with the provisions of said Act of June first, eighteen hundred and ninetj'-eight, shall be gov- erned by the pro\'isions of said Act of June first, eighteen hun- dred and ninety-eight, and the proceedings thereunder shall be conducted in accordance with the provisions of said Act. Approved, July 15, 1913. (Public No. 6, S. 2517.) City of Washington, District of Columbia, Aug. 3, 1914. ARBITRATION AGREEMENT THIS AGREEMENT, made and entered into this third day of August, 1914, between certain Western Railroads, so- called, a list of which is hereto annexed, marked "Exhibit A" and made a part hereof, and which railroads are represented by a Conference Committee of Managers, of which Mr. A. W. Trenholm is Chairman, parties of the first part, and the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers and the Brotherhood of Locomotive Firemen and Enginemen, representing the engi- neers, firemen and hostlers in the service of said railroads, parties of the second part, WITNESSETH: (1) The parties hereto mutually agree that the matters in controversy between them, as hereinafter stated, shall be and are hereby submitted to arbitration under the provisions of an Act of Congress, approved July 15, 1913, entitled "An Act providing for mediation, conciliation and arbitration in con- troversies between certain employers and their employes." ' (2) That there shall be a Board of Arbitration consisting of six (6) members, to be named and selected as provided in said Act. (3) That the questions to be submitted to said Board for decision, and the only questions, are those enumerated and set forth in the communication from said Brotherhoods to the Chairman of the Association of Western Railways under date of October 10, 1913, a copy of which, marked "Exhibit B," is hereto annexed and made a part hereof. 10 (4) That a majority of said Board shall be competent to make a valid and binding- award. (5) That said Board shall commence its hearings, which shall be held in the City of Chicago, within thirty days after the appointment of the arbitrator or arbitrators necessary to com- plete the Board as above to be constituted. (6) That said Board shall make and file its award within ninety days from the beginning of its hearings. (7) That the award made by said Board shall become effective at the expiration of ten days after the making and filing of the same, and shall continue in force for one year from that date and thereafter subject to the usual thirty days' notice to or by any of said railroads; but such notice may be given before the expiration of said year. (8) That the respective parties hereto, and each of them, will accept the award of said Board and faithfully execute the same. (9) That the award and the papers and proceedings, in- cluding the testimony relating thereto, certified under the hands of the arbitrators, and which shall have the force and effect of a bill of exceptions, shall be filed in the Clerk's office of the District Court of the United States for the Northern District of Illinois, Eastern Division, and shall be final and conclusive upon the parties hereto unless set aside for error of law apparent on the record. (10) That any difference arising as to the meaning or the application of the award made by said Board shall be referred back to the Board for a ruling thereon, which ruling shall have the same force and effect as the original award; and both parties, at the request of either of them, hereby agree to join in giving notice for reconvening said Board and of the question or questions to be submitted to the reconvened Board. If any member of said Board is unable or unwilling to serve, another arbitrator shall be named in the same manner as such member was originally named. And to promote a speedy de- termination of any difference arising over the meaning or application of said award, the parties of the first part hereby appoint the Chairman of the Association of Western Bailways for the time being as their agent and attorney and the agent 11 and attorney of each of them, to join in a notice to the Board of Mediation and Conciliation for the reconvening of said Board of Arbitration, and to state in such notice the question or ques^ tions to be submitted to the reconvened Board; and the parties of the second part hereby appoint the Grand Chief of the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers for the time being as the agent and attorney of each of them for the like purpose. (11) That the schedules, rates, rules and practices re- lating to wages in effect October 10, 1913, with the amendments thereto and accepted rulings thereon, are hereby restored and are to remain in full force and effect until the end of the period covered by the award, except as modified by the award, and thereafter until changed as provided in the individual schedules. (12) That any rates of pay, including excess mileage or arbitrary differentials, that are higher, or any rules or condi- tions of employment contained in individual schedules in effect October 10, 1913, that are more favorable to the employes than the award of said Board, shall not be modified or affected by said award. IN WITNESS WHEREOF, this agreement has been signed on behalf of the parties of the first part by the Chair- man of the Conference Committee of Managers above named, duly authorized thereto, and on behalf of the parties of the second part by W. S. Stone, Grand Chief of the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers, and W. S. Carter, President of the Brotherhood of Locomotive Firemen and Enginemen, the day and year first above written. (Signed) A. W. TRENHOLM, Chairman, Conference Committee of Managers. (Signed) W. S. STONE, Grand Chief, Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers. (Signed) W. S. CARTER, President, Brotherhood of Locomotive Firemen and Enginemen. DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA, ss. ^ - ^ ■ « « On this third day of August, 1914, before me personally appeared A. W. Trenholm, W. S. Stone, and W. S. Carter, to me personally known to be the persons described in and who 12 executed the foregoing instrument, and severally acknowledged the execution thereof. (Signed) MARTIN A. KNAPP, Member United States Board of Mediation and Conciliation. EXHIBIT "A" LIST OF ROADS REPRESENTED Atchison, Topeka & Santa Fe Ry. — Eastern Lines. Atchison, Topeka & Santa Fe Ry. — Western Lines. Southern Kansas Ry. of Texas. Pecos & Northern Texas Ry. Pecos River R. R. Rio Grande & El Paso R. R. Atchison, Topeka & Santa Fe Ry. — Coast Lines. Grand Canyon Ry. A. T. & S. F. Ry. — Santa Fe, Prescott & Phoenix Lines. Gulf, Colorado & Santa Fe Ry. Texas & Gulf Railway. Gulf & Interstate Ry. of Texas. Concho, San Saba & Llano Valley R. R. Baltimore & Ohio Chicago Terminal R. R. Belt Ry. of Chicago (Firemen only). Canadian Northern Railway. Duluth, Winnipeg & Pacific Ry. Canadian Pacific Ry. — Lines West of Fort William. Chicago & Alton Railroad. Chicago & North Western Ry. Pierre & Fort Pierre Bridge Ry. Pierre, Rapid City & Northwestern R. R. Wyoming & Northwestern Ry. Chicago & Western Indiana R. R. (Firemen only). Chicago, Burlington & Quincy R. R. Chicago, Great Western R. R. Chicago Junction Ry. Chicago, Milwaukee & St. Paul Ry. — Eastern Line^ Chicago, Milwaukee & St. Paul Ry. — Puget Sound Lines. Bellingham & Northern R. R. Tacoma Eastern R. R. 13 Chicago, Eock Island & Pacific Ry. Chicago, Eock Island & Gulf Ey. Colorado & Southern Ey. Chicago, St. Paxil, Minneapolis & Omaha Ey. Davenport, Eock Island & North Western Ey. Denver & Eio Grande E. E. DuLUTH, South Shore & Atlantic Ey. Mineral Eange E. E. El Paso & Southwestern Ey. Fort Worth Belt Ey. Fort Worth & Denver City Ey. Wichita Valley Ey. Great Northern Ey. System. Illinois Central E. E. Yazoo & Mississippi Valley Ey. International & Great Northern Ey. E^ANSAS City, Clinton & Springfield Ey. Kansas City Southern Ey. Texarkana & Ft. Smith Ey. Kansas City Terminal Ey. Louisiana & Arkansas Ey. Minneapolis, St. Paul & Sault Sainte Marie Ey. Missouri & North Arkansas E. E. Missouri, Kansas & Texas Ey. Missouri, Kansas & Texas Ey. of Texas. Beaumont & Great Northern E. E. Texas Central E. E. Wichita Falls Lines. Missouri, Oklahoma & Gulf Ey. Missouri Pacific Ey. and St. Louis, Iron Mountain & South- ern Ey. Northern Pacific Ey. Oregon- Washington E. E. & Navigation Co. Oregon Short Line E. E. St. Louis & San Francisco E. E. (Except Hostlers). New Orleans; Texas & Mexico E. E. Orange & Northwestern E. E. Beaumont, Sour Lake & Western Ey. St. Louis, Brqwnsville & Mexico Ey. St; Ijouis, San Francisco & Texas Ey. Fort Worth & Eio Grande Ey. 14 St. Louis Southwestern Ry. St. Louis Soiitliwestern Ey. of Texas. San Antonio & Aransas Pass Ry. San Pedro, Los Angeles & Salt Lake R. R. Southern Pacific Co. — Pacific System. Sunset Central Lines : Galveston, Harrisbiirg & San Antonio Ry. Houston & Texas Central R. R. Houston East & West Texas Ry. Houston & Shreveport R. R. Texas & New Orleans R. R. Morgan's Louisiana & Texas R. R. and Steamship Co. Louisiana Western R. R. Spokane, Portland & Seattle Ry. Oregon Trunk Ry. Terminal Railroad Association of St. Louis. St. Louis Merchants Bridge Terminal Ry. Texas & Pacific Ry. Denison «& Pacific Suburban Ry. Weatherford, Mineral Wells & N. W. Ry. Trinity & Brazos Valley Ry. Union Pacific R. R. Union Railway — Memphis. Union Stock Yards of Omaha. Wabash Railroad — Lines West of Detroit & Toledo. Western Pacific Ry. The Wiggins Ferry Co. EXHIBIT "B" LETTER NO. 1. Chicago, 111., October 10, 1913. Mr. W. S. Tinsman, Chairman, Managers' Association, Room 1863, Transportation Building, 608 S. Dearborn St., Chicago, 111. Dear Sir: The locomotive engineers, firemen and hostlers employed on the roads named on the inclosed list have instructed 15 us to present to you the inclosed revision of the present sched- ules of wages and working conditions of locomotive engineers, firemen and hostlers operating steam or other motive power. We ask that you take this matter up with each of the roads named, and ask them to join with all other railway managements in the western territory in delegating to a conference committee of managers authority to represent their respective roads in the conducting of joint negotiations. We desire it understood that all rates, rules and conditions not affected by these proposed amendments shall remain un- changed, but will be subject to changes through negotiations by the proper officials and committees, as in the past. We request that all lines or divisions of railway owned, leased, operated or controlled by the roads named in the inclosed list be included in these negotiations, and any agreement reached shall apply to all of such lines of railway. We also request the privilege of submitting the names of other roads in the western territory as fast as we hear from them. We hope all roads will accept the notice presented to them as the proper notice required for the opening of existing sched- ules for amendment. Yours very truly, (Signed) W. S. STONE, Grand Chief Engineer, Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers, 1114 B. of L. E. Building, Cleveland, Ohio. (Signed) W. S. CARTER, President, Brotherhood of Locomotive Firemen and Enginemen, Peoria, 111. ARTICLES SUBMITTED BY THE WESTERN ASSOCIATION OF THE BROTHERHOOD OF LOCOMOTIVE ENGINEERS AND THE BROTHERHOOD OF LOCO- MOTIVE FIREMEN AND ENGINEMEN. ARTICLE I. BASIS OF A day's WORK. Passenger Service. One hundred miles or less, five hours or less, will constitute a day's work in all classes of passenger service. All mileage in excess of 100 miles shall be paid for pro rata. 16 All Other Service Except Switching. One hundred miles or less, 10 hours or less, will constitute a day's work in all classes of service except passenger and switching service. All mileage in excess of 100 miles shall be paid for pro rata. Ten miles' run will be the equivalent of one hour's service performed, or vice versa. OVERTIME IN ROAD SERVICE, Passenger Service. Overtime in passenger service will be computed and paid for on a basis of twenty miles per hour, at rate for each class of engine used. All Other Road Service. Overtime in all other service except passenger and switch- ing service will be computed on a basis of ten miles per hour, and paid for at the rate of 15 miles per hour, at rate for each class of engine used. All overtime will be computed on the minute basis. ARTICLE XL RATES OF PAY. Passenger Service. The rate in passenger serWce on locomotives other than the Mallet type weighing less than : Engineers. Firemen. 80,000 lbs. on drivers shall be $4.50 |2.90 80,000 lbs. and less than 100,000 lbs. on drix-ers 4.60 .{.00 100,000 lbs. and less than 140,000 lbs. on drivers 4.80 a.] 5 140,000 lbs. and less than 170,000 lbs. on drivers 5.00 3.25 170,000 lbs. and less than 200,000 lbs. on drivers 5.15 .3.40 200,000 lbs. and less than 225,000 lbs. on drivers 5.35 3..50 225,000 lbs. and less than 250,000 lbs. on drivers 5.50 3.65 250,000 lbs. and over on drivers 5.60 3.75 In all classes of service except passenger and switching service on locomotives other than Mallet type weighing less than : Engineers. Firemen, 80,000 lbs. on drivers shall be $5.00 $3.25 80,000 lbs. and less than 100,000 lbs. on drivers 5.20 3.40 100,000 lbs. and less than 140,000 lbs. on drivers : 5.40 ' 3.50 140,000 lbs. and less than 17U,U00 lbs. on drivers 5,60 3.65 170,000 lbs. and less than 200,000 lbs. on drivers 5.80 3,75 .y 17 Engineers. Firemen. 200,000 lbs. and less than 225,000 lbs. on drivers 6.10 4.00 225,000 lbs. and less than 250,000 lbs. on drivers 6.40 4.25 250,000 lbs. and over on drivers 6.70 4.50 Mallet type engines, all classes of service, except switching service, weighing less than : Engineers. Firemen. 250,000 lbs. on drivers $7.50 $4.90 250,000 lbs. and less than 300,000 lbs. on drivers 7.75 5.10 300,000 lbs. and less than 400,000 lbs. on drivers 8.00 5.25 400,'000 lbs. and over on drivers 8.25 5.50 Pusher, Helper, Mine Runs, Work, Wreck, Belt Line, Transfer, and All Other Unclassified Service. Engineers and Firemen on Locomotives in pusher and helper service, mine runs, work, wreck, belt line and transfer service, and all other unclassified service, will be paid through freight rate according to the class of engine. Divisions Where Grade Is 1.8%. On all divisions where grade is one and eight-tenths per cent or over, an increase of ten per cent over Valley rates will be paid. Narrow Gauge Locomotives. On Roads where narrow-gauge locomotives are in service^ a five per cent increase over present rates in effect shall be granted. Electric Locomotives, Electric Either Multiple Unit or Single, Gasoline or Other Service. Wherever electric, multiple unit, gasoline or other service is installed as a substitute for steam, or is now in operation on any railroad parties to this agreement or on any of the tracks operated or controlled by any of them as part of their system, the Locomotive Engineers and Firemen shall have the right to the position of Motonnan and Helper, respectively. The term ''helper" ^\\\\ be understood to mean the second man employed on electric locomotives or other power. Seniority Rights; Rules, Hours of Service and Mileage. Seniority rights to be interchangeable. Steam rules, hours of service and mileage to apply with the following rates of pay: 18 Passenger Service. Motorniaii. Helper. 20,000 lbs. tractive power and less .$4..50 $3.35 Over 20,000 lbs. tractive power and less than 25,000 lbs 4.60 3.35 Over 25.000 lbs. tractive power and less than 30,000 lbs . .. 4.70 3.35 Over 30,000 lbs. tractive power and less than 35,000 lbs 4.80 3.35 Over 35,000 lbs. tractive power and less than 40,000 lbs 4.90 3.35 Over 40,000 lbs. tractive power and less than 45,000 lbs 5.00 3.35 Over 45,000 lbs. tractive power and less than 50,000 lbs 5.15 3.35 Over 50,000 lbs. tractive power and less than 55,000 lbs 5.35 3.35 Over 55,000 lbs. tractive power and less than 60,000 lbs 5.50 3.35 60,000 lbs. tractive power and over 5.60 '3.35 All Other Service Except Passenger and Sivitching. Motorman. Helper. 20,000 lbs. tractive power and less $5.00 $3.75 Over 20,000 lbs. tractive power and less than 25,000 lbs 5.20 3.75 Over 25,000 lbs. tactive power and less than 30,000 lbs 5.30 3.75 Over 30,000 lbs. tractive power and less than 35,000 lbs 5.40 3.75 Over 35,000 lbs. tractive power and less than 40,000 lbs 5.60 3.75 Over 40,000 lbs. tractive power and less than 45,000 lbs 5.80 3.75 Over 45,000 lbs. tractive power and less than 50,000 lbs 6.00 3.75 Over 50,000 lbs. tractive power and less than 55,000 lbs 6.20 3.75 Over 55,000 lbs. tractive power and less than 60,000 lbs 6.40 3.75 Over 60,000 lbs. tractive power and less than 65,000 lbs 6.60 3.75 Over 65,000 lbs. tractive power and less than 70,000 lbs 6.80 3.75 70,000 lbs. tractive power and over 7.00 3.75 Sivitching Service. Motorman. Helper. 20,000 lbs. tractive power and less $4.75 $3.10 Over 20,000 lbs. tractive power and less than 40,000 lbs 5.00 3.10 Over 40,000 lbs. tractive power and less than 60,000 lbs 5.50 3.10 60,000 lbs. tractive power and over 6.00 3.10 ARTICLE III. I,OCAL OR WAY FREIGHT SERVICE, Local trains are way freight or mixed trains whose work is the loading or unloading of freight or doing station switching en route. Engineers and Firemen on snch trains will bo paid ten per cent increase over through freight rates. Additional Pay. Through or irregular freight trains doing work such as loading or unloading freight, stock or company material, switch- ing at stations, spurs, mines, mills, or required to pick up or set out cars, unless cars to be picked up are first out, or cars to be ►V 19 set out are switched together at terminals, or doing any other similar work, shall be paid for same at overtime rates in addi- tion to time or mileage made on the trip. ARTICLE IV. SWITCHING SERVICE. Rates of Pay. Engineers. Firemen. Engines weighing less than 140,000 lbs. on drivers $4.75 $3.10 Engines weighing 140,000 lbs. and over on drivers 5.00 3.25 Mallet type engines 6.00 4.00 Engineers and Firemen required to begin service other than between the hours of 6 a. m. and 8 a. m. will be paid 2 cents per hour, in addition to above rate. : . _^i Day's Work. Ten hours or less will constitute a day's w^ork in switching service. Time to be computed continuously, all over ten hours to be computed and paid for at rate of time and one-half. All overtime to be computed on minute basis. Meals. Switch Engineers and Firemen will not be required to work longer than six consecutive hours without being allowed thirty minutes undisturbed for meals. Road Engines Used. When Road Engines are used in yard service, road rates will apply. ARTICLE V. PREPARATORY TIME. Engineers and Firemen in all classes of service will be allowed thirty minutes as preparatory time in addition to all other time or mileage made on the trip or day, at the pro rata rate corresponding with class of locomotive and service; pro- vided, that on lines of railroad where rules or schedules require them to be on duty more than thirty minutes before time ordered to leave roundhouse or other point, they will be allowed one hour's time, and when required to be on duty more than one hour, actual time will be allowed. Preparatory time wdll be the time Engineers and Firemen are required to be on their 20 locomotives, prior to time ordered to leave roundhouse or other point. ARTICLE VI. TERMINAL DELAY. Passenger Service. Initial terminal delay for Engineers and Firemen in pas- senger service shall begin at the time they are called to leave roundhouse or other point and shall end upon departure of trains from passenger depot. Final terminal delay for Engineers and Firemen in pas- senger service shall begin at the time they arrive at passenger depot, and will end when relieved from duty. Freight Service. Initial terminal delay in freight service shall begin at the time Engineers and Firemen are called to leave roundhouse or other point and shall end when train has passed from yard track or lead to main line, and actually departs from the terminal. Final terminal delay in freight service shall begin when train arrives at switch leading from main line into yard, and shall end when Engineer and Fireman are relieved from duty; provided, that if from any cause trains are held out of yard, final terminal delay shall begin. Minute Basis. Engineers and Firemen shall be paid on a minute basis for all terminal delays at the pro rata rate for the class of engine used; this in addition to all time or mileage made on the trip. ARTICLE VII. AUTOMATIC RELEASE AND TIE-UP. Engineers and Firemen arriving at terminal or end of run are automatically released; when used again, they begin a new day. Continuous Time. Engineers and Firemen tied up between their terminals will be paid continuous time, no deductions will be made for time tied up. ARTICLE VIII. HELD AWAY FROM HOME TERMINALS. Engineers and Firemen held at other than home terminal 21 (including rest period) will be paid continuous time for all time so held, after the expiration of 15 hours from time relieved from previous duty, at the rate per hour paid for the last service performed ; less than one hour not to be paid for. ARTICLE IX. DEADHEADING. Engineers and Firemen deadheading on Company business shall be paid the same rate and on the same basis as the Engineer and Fireman on the train on which deadheading. Rules in indi- vidual schedules governing minimum day and other conditions to apply. ARTICLE X. HOSTLERS. At points where an average of six or more locomotives are handled within twelve hours, day or night, hostlers shall be maintained. Positions, How Filled: Hostling positions shall be filled from the ranks of the Fire- men, and they shall be paid $3.35 per day of ten hours or less ; provided, that where Hostlers are required to make main line movements, they shall be paid $4.75 per day of ten hours or less, overtime in each case to be computed on the minute basis and paid for at the rate of time and one-half. When such main-line or road Hostlers are paid the same rate as Engineers in switching service, such position shall be filled from the ranks of the Engineers. Meal Hour. Hostlers shall be allowed one hour for meals between the hours of 11:30 and 1:30, day or night. Hostlers will be as- signed regular meal hour between the hours named or after being on duty five hours. Should Hostlers be required to remain on duty after designated meal hour, one hour will be allowed as overtime. No Hostler mil be required to remain on duty longer than six hours without having one full hour for meals. ARTICLE XL SURPRISE TESTS. That the practice of conducting surprise tests by turning switch lights and placing red lights, or flags, unaccompanied bj'^ 22 torpedoes, beside track, or wiring down automatic signals to- proceed position, be eliminated. ARTICLE XII. ASSISTANCE FOR FIREMEN. On all locomotives in freight service where but one Fireman is employed, and on all locomotives in passenger service, coal will be kept where it can be reached by the Firemen from the deck of the locomotive. Coal of the proper size for firing pur- poses vdW be placed on all tenders. ARTICLE XIII. TWO FIREMEN. On coal-burning locomotives weighing 185,000 pounds or more on drivers, when used in freight service, two Firemen will be emiDloyed. ARTICLE XIV. MISCELLANEOUS. Cleaning of Locomotives. On railroads where Firemen are required to clean locomo- tives, they shall be relieved of such service. Setting Up Wedges, Filling Grease Cups and Cleaning Head- lights: Where Engineers and Firemen are required to set up wedges, fill grease cups, or clean headlights, they shall be re- lieved of such service at all points where roundhouse, or shop force, or an engine watchman is employed. Placing of Supplies on Locomotives. Where Engineers and Firemen are required to place on or remove tools or supplies from locomotives, fill lubricators, flange oilers, headlights, markers or other lamps, they shall be relieved of such service at all points where roundhouse, shop force, or an engine watchman is employed. ARTICLE XV. OFFICIAL RECORD OF WEIGHTS ON DRIVTIRS. For the purpose of recording weights on drivers, each rail- road, parties to this agreement, "will permanently post bulletins at all terminals sho\\'ing accurate service-weights of all locomo- tives. ^i- 23 ARTICLE XVI. THROWING SWITCHES AND FLAGGING. Engineers and Firemen mil not be required to throw switches, flag through blocks, or fill water cars. NOTIFICATION TO U. S. BOARD OF MEDIATION AND CONCILIATION OF SELECTION OF ARBITRATORS REPRESENTING BROTHERHOOD OF LOCOMOTIVE ENGINEERS AND BROTHERHOOD OF LOCOMOTIVE FIREMEN AND ENGINEMEN. Chicago, 111., Aug. 10, 1914. Hon. Martin A. Knapp, Hon. William L. Chambers^ Hon. G. W. W. Hanger, Commissioners, U. S. Board of Mediation and Conciliation, Washington, D. C. Gentlemen : In accordance with the arbitration agreement signed Au- gust 3, 1914, between the Association of Western Railways, the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers and the Brotherhood of Locomotive Firemen and Enginemen, we would advise that the organizations have submitted the names of the following gentle- men to act as their representatives on the Board of Arbitration : For the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers, Mr. F. A. Burgess, Assistant Grand Chief Engineer, Cleveland, Ohio. For the Brotherhood of Locomotive Firemen and Engine- men, Mr. T. Shea, Assistant President, Brotherhood of Locomo- tive Firemen and Enginemen, Peoria, Illinois. We understand that we have complied with the require- ments of the law when we give you this official notice, and take it for granted that you will notify the other parties to the arbi- tration agreement. Yours very truly, (Signed) W. S. STONE, Grand Chief Engineer, Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers, 1116 B. of L. E. Building, Cleveland, Ohio. W. S. CARTER, President, Brotherhood of Locomotive Firemen and Enginemen, Box 740, Chicago, 111. 24 NOTIFICATION TO U. S. BOARD OF MEDIATION AND CONCILIATION OF SRLECTION OF ARBITRATORS REPRESENTING THE WESTERN RAILWAYS. August 11, 1914. To the United States Board of Mediation and Conciliation, Hon. Martin A. Knapp, Hon. Wm. L. Chambers^ Hon. G. ^Y, W. Hanger, Members, AVashington, D. C. Gentlemen : The railroads represented by the Conference Committee of Managers of which the undersigned is Chairman, parties of the first part in the arbitration agreement dated August 3, 1914, between said railroads and the Brotherhood of Locomotive En- gineers and the Brotherhood of Locomotive Firemen and En- ginemen representing the engineers, firemen and hostlers iii the service of said railroads, do hereby name as the two arbitrators whom said railroads have the right to select under said con- tract, Mr. H. E. Byram, Vice-President, Chicago, Burlington & Quincy Railroad, and Mr. W. L. Park, Vice-President, Illinois Central Railroad. By order of the Conference Committee of Managers. (Signed) A. W. TRENHOLM, Chairman. NOTIFICATION TO ARBITRATORS SELECTED BY THE BROTHERHOOD OF LOCOMOTIVE ENGINEERS, BROTHERHOOD OF LOCOMOTIVE FIREMEN AND ENGINEMEN, AND THE WESTERN RAILWAYS, OF THE RATIFICATION AND APPROVAL OF THEIR SELECTION AND CALLING A MEETING FOR THE SELECTION OF NEUTRAL ARBITRATORS. August 15, 1914. Mr. F. a. Burgess, Assistant Grand Chief Engineer, Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers, Cleveland, Ohio. »^ 25 Mr. T. Shea, Assistant President, Brotlierliood of Locomotive Firemen & Enginonien, Peoria, 111. Mr. H. E. Byram, Vice President, Chicago, Burlington & Quincy Eailroad, Chicago, III. Mr. W. L. Park, Vice President, Illinois Central Railroad, Chicago, 111. Gentlemen : The United States Board of Mediation and Conciliation has been informed by letter dated August 10th, 1914, signed by W. S. Stone, Grand Chief Engineer, Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers, and W. S. Carter, President, Brotherhood of Loco- motive Firemen and Enginemen, that the Brotherhood of Loco- motive Engineers has selected Mr. F. A. Burgess, Assistant Grand Chief Engineer, Cleveland, Ohio, and the Brotherhood of Locomotive Firemen & Enginemen has selected Mr. T. Shea, Assistant President, Brotherhood of Locomotive Firemen & Enginemen, as the representatives of the two Brotherhoods as their arbitrators under the provisions of the Act of Congress of July 15th, 1913, and of the agreement to arbitrate signed by all the parties dated August 3rd, 1914. The Board of Media- tion is also informed by Mr. A. W. Trenliolm, Chairman of the Association of Western Railways, in letter under date of August 11th, 1914, that the Conference Committee of Managers, repre- senting the Association of Western Railways, has selected as Arbitrators to represent the Railroads in the Arbitration Mr. H. E. Byram, Vice President, Chicago, Burlington & Quincy Railroad, and Mr. W. L, Park, Vice President, Illinois Central Railroad. You are hereby formally notified of your selection as above stated and your selection is duly ratified and approved by the United States Board of Mediation and Conciliation, and you are requested to assemble at such place in the city of Chicago as may be most convenient to you at 10 o'clock a. m., Monday, August 24, 1914, for the purpose of selecting the remaining arbitrators to complete the Board as required by said Act of Congress. It is the desire of this Board that you gentlemen 26 sliould make these selections and if necessary exhaust the entire time allowed by law — 15 days — for that purpose. You will l^lease notify the Board of Mediation and Conciliation innnedi- ately upon making your selection, and in case you should fail to do so you will kindly withhold the notice of vour failure until the expiration of the time. Your traveling expenses from your places of residence to Chicago and return, and subsistence (limited by law now to $5 per day) will be paid upon proper vouchers rendered the Board of Mediation and Conciliation. The railroads and employees are to be congratulated upon the selection of gentlemen of such character as yourselves for this responsilile service. Very truly yours, (Signed) W. L. CHAMBERS, Commissioner. I suggest that your first meeting be at Congress Hotel, and afterwards as may suit your convenience. Kindly advise me. W. L. C. NOTIFICATION TO UNITED STATES BOARD OF MEDIA- TION AND CONCILIATION THAT ARBITRATORS SELECTED BY THE WESTERN RAILWAYS, THE BROTHERHOOD OF LOCOMOTIVE ENGINEERS AND THE BROTHERHOOD OF LOCOMOTIVE FIREMEN AND ENGINEMEN HAVE BEEN UNABLE TO AGREE IN THE SELECTION OF THE REMAINING ARBI- TRATORS. (Telegram.) Chicago, September 8, 1914. To Honorable William L. Chambers, Commissioner United States Board Mediation and Concilia- tion, Southern Building, Washington, D. C. The undersigned appointed by the railroads and the organi- zations involved in the western wage movement of the Brother- hood of Locomotive Engineers and Brotherhood of Locomotive Firemen and Enginemen, and duly ratified and approved by the United States Board of Mediation and Conciliation as arbi- »^ 27 trators under the provisions of the Act of Congress of July fifteenth, nineteen hundred thirteen, and of the agreement to arbitrate, signed by all of the parties dated August third, nine- teen hundred fourteen, beg to respectfully report that they have been unable to agree in the selection of the remaining arbitra- tors to complete the Board as required by said Act of Congress. Letter confirming this telegram with further details mailed you this date. F. A. BURGESS, T. SHEA, H. E. BYRAM, W. L. PARK. NOTIFICATION OF SELECTION OF NEUTRAL ARBL TRATORS BY U. S. BOARD OF MEDIATION AND CONCILIATION. November 21, 1914. In the Matter of the Controversy Between" Ninety-eight Western Associated Railways AND the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engi- neers AND the Brotherhood of Locomotive Firemen and Enginemen : The parties to the above-named controversy having agreed to submit the matters in dispute between them to arbitration under and in pursuance of the provisions of the Act approved July 15, 1913, entitled ''An Act providing for mediation, con- ciliation and arbitration in controversies between certain em- ployers and their employees," and having executed an agree- ment in writing to that effect, dated August 3, 1914, and filed the same with the United States Board of Mediation and Con- ciliation created by said Act, which agreement provides for a Board of Arbitration consisting of six members; and the Con- ference Committee of Managers representing the railroads parties to the controversy having named as arbitrators on the part of said railroad Mr. H. E. Byram, Vice President of the Chicago, Burlington & Quincy Railroad Company, and Mr. W. L. Park, Vice President of the Illinois Central Railroad 28 Company, and the said organizations having named as their arbitrators Mr. F. A. Burgess, Assistant Grand Chief Engineer of the Brotlierhood of Locomotive Engineers, and Mr. Timothy Shea, Assistant President of the Brotherhood of Locomotive Firemen and Enginemen; and the four thus named having met in Chicago, 111., on the 24th day of August, 1914, for the pur- pose of selecting the remaining arbitrators, and having failed to agree upon them or either of them within fifteen days there- after, and having thereupon duly notified the said Board of Mediation and Conciliation of such failure ; NOW, THEREFORE, The United States Board of Media- tion and Conciliation, by virtue of the authority conferred by said Act, does hereby name and appoint as the remaining arbi- trators Hon. Jeter C. Pritchard, of Asheville, North Carolina, and Hon. Charles Nagel, of St. Louis, Missouri, who together with the four arbitrators above named will constitute the Board of Arbitration to hear and determine the controversy in ques- -tion. U. S. BOARD OF MEDIATION AND CONCILIATION, (Signed) By Martin A. Knapp, (Signed) W. L. Chambers, Members of Board. 29 IN THE MATTER OF THE ARBITRATION between the WESTERN RAILWAYS and BROTHERHOOD OF LOCOMOTIVE ENGINEERS and BROTHERHOOD OF LOCOMOTIVE FIRE- MEN AND ENGINEMEN under the Act approved July 15, 1913, by agree- ment dated August 3, 1914. Room 603 Federal Building, Chicago, Illinois, November 30, 1914, 10 a. m. Present — Jeter C. Pritchard, Chairman, Charles Nagel, H. E. Byram, W. L. Park, F. A. Burgess, Timothy Shea_ Arbitrators. H. S. Milstead, Secretary. Appearances. For the Conference Committee of Managers — A. W. Trenholm ((leneral Manager, Chicago, St. Paul,. Minneapolis & Omaha Ry. Co.), Chairman, F. C. Batchelder, President, Baltimore & Ohio Chicago Terminal R. R. Co., P. H. MoRRissEY, Assistant to the Vice President, Chi- cago, Burlington & Quincy R. R. Co., P. C. Hart, General Manager, Chicago, Milwaukee & St. Paul Ry. Co. — Eastern Lines, D. W. Campbell, Assistant General Manager, Southern Pacific Co. — Pacific System, 30 J. W. HiGGiNs, General Manager, Missouri Pacific Ry. Co. and St. Louis, Iron Mountain & Southern Ey., Grant Hall, General Manager, Canadian Pacific Ry. Co. — Lines West of Fort William, J. H, Keefe, Assistant General Manager, Gulf, Colo- rado & Santa Fe Ey. Co., W. S. Martin, General Manager, Denver & Eio Grande E. E. Co., M. J. Buckley, General Superintendent, Oregon- Wash- ington Eailroad & Navigation Co., W. J. Tollerton, General Mechanical Superintendent, Chicago, Eock Island & Pacific Ey. Co. H. M. Curry, General Mechanical Superintendent, Northern Pacific Ey. Co. James M. Sheean, Counsel for the Committee. For the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineer,'^ — W. S. Stone, Grand Chief Engineer, M. W. Cadle, Assistant Grand Chief Engineer, Ash Kennedy, Assistant Grand Chief Engineer, M. E. Montgomery, Assistant Grand Chief Engineer, E. CoRRiGAN, Assistant Grand Chief Engineer. For the Brotherhood of Locomotive Firemen and Enginemen — W. S. Carter, President, Albert Phillips, Vice President. (All the members of the Board of Arbitration met in con- ference to organize and elect officers, and at 11:30 a. m. the first public session of the Board was opened.) The Chairman: The Board met in conference and organ- ized by electing Jeter C. Pritchard, U. S. Circuit Judge for Fourth Circuit, of Asheville, North Carolina, one of the neutral arbitrators, as Chairman, and selected Mr. H. S. Milstead, of Washington, D. C, as Secretary to the Board, and Mr. AVilliam A. Britt, of Asheville, North Carolina, as Assistant Secretary to the Board, and designated George Lewis, of Chicago, Illinois, as Messenger to the Board. The Board agreed to the following hours for sessions : Morning session to l)egin at 10 A. M. and continue until 12:30 P. M. ; recess will be taken at that hour until 2 P. M. ; afternoon rV 31 session will begin at 2 P. M, and continue until 5 P. M, At the beginning of the sessions, the Board will sit five days in the week — from Monday until Friday, inclusive. The official stenog- raphers are requested to make a part of the record a copy of the Act of July 15, 1913, under which this arbitration is held, and a copy of the agreement to arbitrate and the appointment of the arbitrators. This Board was formed pursuant to the Act of July 15, 1913, known as the Newlands Act. We appreciate the importance of the work which is before us, realizing as we do that in order to reach a fair and equitable adjustment of the matters in controversy between the parties at interest it will be necessary to examine a vast amount of documentary evidence, involving complicated statistical and oral testimony. This is the second concerted arl)itration held under the Act of July 15, 1913. We are now ready to proceed. We now have forty-five minutes until the hour for recess, and first in order we mil hear an opening statement from the Locomotive Engineers. OPENING STATEMENT ON BEHALF OF ENGINEERS AND FIREMEN Mr, Stone : Gentlemen of the Board of Arbitration : In presenting our side of this case to the Board, we think it only fair to both Mr. Carter and myself to say that we are not laAv- yers, such as the other side of the case will use in their presen- tation, so, if at times we get away from lines of legal procedure, it is due to our ignorance, and not to intent. It is not our desire to do anything but bring out the true facts in the case. Per- sonal feeling has no place here. Eegardless of what the de- cision of this Board may be, the railroads involved in the arbi- tration will still require operating officials to operate them and they, in turn, will require the services of these locomotive en- gineers, firemen and hostlers. We wish to call the attention of the Board to one important fact, viz., the case of the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers and the case of the Brotherhood of Locomotive P^'iremen and Enginemen are not separate and distinct cases, but are instead a single proposition. And, while the matter to be presented to 32 the Board will be presented l)y the representatives of the two organizations, and, in the matter of presenting details, one offi- cer or the other will act, as the needs of the case may require, yet, the testimony of witnesses and all other evidence we shall introduce will always apply alike to all phases of the case and to the classes that are represented by us. In the beginning, we would like to impress upon you that, in the many things we shall attemi)t to show regarding the service of engineers, their exposure, responsibility, long hours of serv- ice, the hard nerve racking, soul breaking grind, with it all and through it all there is always a fireman in the cab of the engine with the engineer, sharing it all ^\ith him. They work together ; live most of their waking hours together ; eat and sleep together, very often and, in many cases, they have died together. So. they are partners in the truest sense and should share alike in any benefits that may accrue from this award. In speaking of the conditions under which these men Avork, I shall, no doubt, get very much in earnest, because their work- ing conditions and the hardships they endure lie very close to my heart. Yet, I have no desire to be offensive. I do desire to present our side of the case in the strongest possible light. Many of the operating officials of the railroads in question are my personal friends, even though we have found ourselves on opposite sides of the question in the past and at the present time. In presenting our case, it might be well to outline briefly the steps taken which led up to this arbitration, and to state in a general way why we make these i"equests. The Brotherhood of Locomotive Firemen and Enginemen began preparations for a wage movement more than two years ago. Later on, it was decided that they should work jointly with the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers, and the general chairmen of both organizations held a series of meetings during August, 1913. The sixteen articles that are to be arbitrated by this Board were formulated and referred back to the member- ship of the two organizations for their approval. On October 1st, 1913, these articles had been approved almost unanimously by the membership of both organizations employed by the rail- roads in question. On October 10th, 1913, the articles were pre- sented to the operating officers on each of the railroads in the 33 western territory, with the usual thirty days' notice of our desire to open our wage schedules for amendment. The sixteen articles submitted carried with them a moderate increase in rates of pay and a considerable improvement in working con- ditions, and were to be applied to the schedules then in effect. Articles not affected by the sixteen articles presented were to remain in force. The operating officials, through their association, went us one better and, on the same date that our committees i3resented their proposition to the operating officials of the individual roads, in turn, they submitted a counter proposition to the em- ployees' committees, giving thirty days' notice of their desire to terminate all schedules in effect on the lines represented by the Association of Western Railways, and submitting some vague generalities on which they proposed, later on, to formu- late a new schedule of wages and working conditions. This was looked upon, at the time, by the Association of Western Rail- ways as a shrewd master stroke. Since that time, however, the sentiment has changed, and it is now regarded by many as a mistake. On the same date (October 10, 1913) Mr. Carter and myself submitted a copy of the sixteen articles to Mr. Tinsman, Chair- man of the Association of Western Railways, and asked that he take up with the Association the question of the selection of a Conference Committee from the members of the Association, with full power to act for all the railroads represented. Receipt of this request was acknowledged by Mr. Tinsman, and the request was submitted to the individual members of the Association, with the result that a conference committee of thirteen w^as selected, with full power to represent the ninety- eight railroads involved. After several delays, largely due to my illness, the first conference was held on February 10, 1914. An- other delay then occurred, caused by the illness of Mr. Tinsman. Finally, Mr. Trenholm was selected as Chairman to succeed Mr. Tinsman, and a series of conferences was held, lasting through several months. I believe there were some thirty-six confer- ences held, in all. Looking back now, I cannot believe that the Conference Committee of Managers ever seriously considered the granting of a single cent of the increase asked for, or had the least idea 34 of trying to settle the case. This statement is further borne out by their verbal statements made before the Joint Connnittee, by those that have passed between us, and by their |)ul)lic statements given to the ])ress, and printed by tlie thousand and sent broad- cast over the country, at the time negotiations were l>roken off, when the matter was submitted back to the men. In a letter from Mr. Tinsman, (*hairman of the Association of Western Railways, addressed to Mr. Carter and myself, un- der date of October 30, 1913, he cpiotes from the standard form of letter issued by the individual members of the Association of Western Railways to their employees, the same being issued by instructions of the association, in accordance with the i^lan that had been carefully prepared, as follows: *'A. That schedules of pay now in effect shall not be in- creased." Again, in letter No. 54, Mr. Trenholm's letter as chairman addressed to Mr. Carter and myself, there is the following lan- guage: ''The present time is inopportune for the continuance of consideration of wage propositions of such character as those in which we are now engaged." Again, in letter No. 97, Mi'. Trenholm's letter to Mr. Carter and myself under date of May 25, 1914, you will find the fol- lowing: "We expressed to you our willingness to discuss rates to be applied to such basis, with the intention that such applications w^ould not reduce the compensation of the men." Again, in their misleading statement given to the public press under date of June 1, 1914, we find the following: "For reasons which were fully presented, the Conference Committee of Managers did not believe the railways would be justified in making any increase in the wages of the employees, to say nothing of the enormous increases requested; but it was not intended to make any reduction in wages." The Conference Committee of Managers, in their famous statement to the press, under date of June 1, 1914, used the fol- lowing language: "The Conference Committee of Managers recognizes the fact that railways are engaged in a public service. It recognizes the fact that therefore the managers of railways have no moral right to accede to unreasonable requests of employees, the granting of which would unduly increase expenses of railway operations, because in the long run the public is the chief sufferer, for what- ever embarrasses the adequate maintenance or efficient and eco- nomical operation of railways." It is refreshing to see this change in sentiment, but it is only seen when some question of increase in wages of the em- ployees is concerned that they become so solicitous for the long suft'eriiag and patient public. A little group of financial pirates will exploit some railroad and place a burden on the public, which generations yet unborn will have to bear, and you hear not even a whisper of the rights or sufferings of the public. The organizations, when they consented to this arbitration, believed then, and they believe now, that any board of arbitra- tion will recognize the changed conditions in the transportation service that demand more than ever before of the individual employed, and that new rates and working conditions be estab- lished to compensate them for services performed. The great trouble has been, in times past, in having the rank and file of the people understand the work of the rail- road employes, because it is different from anything else. If there is any job in the industrial world that calls for more complete concentration of mind, quicker action of brain and sounder judgment than that of the man in the cab of the loco- motive, I have never yet heard it named. No thinking man will deny that every business must make good depreciation, wear and tear, before it can pay off any profit. Precisely so it is with labor. The entire capital of the working-man is the bone and sinew of the man, the muscle, energy and brain power which day by day are being worn out and consumed until, eventually, he is used up and goes to the scrap pile of commercial industry as so much worn-out junk. We all realize enough must be saved from the earnings of a 36 locomotive to buy a new one when the old one is worn out. What we have not yet learned is that labor must be paid enough to make good this worn-out human machine. In this day of hea^^ power and heavy tonnage, longer hours and more congested traffic, and those two curses of modern railroading, physical examinations and age limitation, men are being sent to the scrap pile at an age when they should be at their very best and should be able to give good and efficient service for fifteen or twenty years to come, and when, in other lines of emplojanent, they are giving the very best of service. I would lay it dow^n as a fundamental, basic principle that if physical or technical examinations, age limitations, or service requirements beyond the limit of human endurance are to de- prive a man in middle life from earning a living at the profes- sion for which he has spent long, hard years in fitting himself ^ then, in fixing the price the man is to receive for his labor, he should not only receive a living wage, but should receive a wage that would enable him to live in comfort the remainder of his years after he has been disqualified. Before taking up the question of what we hope to prove by witnesses and other methods, I desire to outline briefly and in a general way why we make these requests and w^hy w^e be- lieve the men we represent are entitled even to more than we ask. You understand, of course, that under the terms of the con- tract of arbitration there is a saving clause that reads as follows : ''That any rates of pay, including excess mileage or arbitrary differentials that are higher, or any rules or conditions of em- ployment contained in individual schedules in effect October 10, 1914, that are more favorable to the employes than the award of said Board, shall not be modified or affected by said award. '^ This being true, we have not come here to give away a single thing that we now have, but we want and believe we are entitled to the increase we ask to go w^ith it. We do not come before this Board to quibble or split hairs on technicalities ; we expect to meet all these questions in a broad spirit of equity and fair dealing. We are not here to present rumors or idle theories; we are here to present absolute facts. We have nothing to conceal in presenting our exhibits ; we have no desire to intro- duce anything that is not absolutely correct. It may be that »v 37 some error will be found, that some error will have crept in, due to the mistake of some employe. If so, we would ask the privilege of eorrectino- it, and we concede, without question, to the other side the same privilege, as we have no desire to intro- duce a single fact before this Board that is not absolutely cor- rect, and we court the fullest investigation, standing prepared to prove every statement we make. We desire and hope that you who are charged with the power of making the final decision of this great question will give that decision on the broadest possible lines of fairness. I doubt if any like body of men in the world's history has been called upon to decide questions of graver importance or more far-reaching effect. It is no idle dream when I say that the eyes of capital and labor, not only in the territorv affected but in the entire civilized world, are watching the outcome of your decision and upon the decision will depend, in a large measure, Avhether the principle of arbi- tration, which many thoughtful people are trying to establish as a means of settling industrial disputes, will receive new strength, or whether it will be a step backward. In fixing the rate of pay for these men in the cab of the locomotive, there are many elements that must, in all fairness, be gi\en considei-ation. Among others, there is that of respon- sibility. With all due respect to the other railroad employees and officials on these great systems, it is the men in the cab, the fireman and engineer, who are really the responsible men; men who by their skill and ability make it possible for a rail- road to earn revenue and pay dividends. You may have the finest railroad in the w^orld, with a road- bed and equipment of the very best and latest type, every known safety device, the road officered by competent railroad officials, who know their business thoroughly, every other employee per- forming every duty required of him, yet that railroad does not earn one single penny imtil these men we represent go into the cab of the locomotive and begin their arduous labor. It is only when they start the ponderous machine that the company is enabled to move the thousands of tons of freight and the hun- dreds of passengers to their destinations. So, they are the men who carry the heaviest end of the load of responsibility. That responsibility is becoming heavier each year. Each year traffic 38 becomes heavier and more congested; each year tlie network of signals increases; each year the public demands faster time and better service; each year they build larger and more powerful locomotives: each year the tonnage of trains increases; each year more and more is required of the men in the cab of the locomo- tive; each year examinations become more strict and discii)line more rigid. And, it must not be overlooked that all of these increased burdens fall on the same men; their number not having been increased for the purpose of dividing this work and re- sponsibility. Only one engineer and one fireman are found in the cab. This is not true of the transportation service in other lines. Take, for example, your great steamship companies with ships like the Yaterland, for instance, one of the largest. There, instead of having one captain you have four captains and one commander in charge. The responsibility is divided between five men instead of the responsibility being on one; yet, no mat- ter how large the locomotive, no matter how heavy the train, no matter how fast the time, the entire responsibility rests on one engineer and one fireman in the cab. There never was a time in the history of the railroad world when so much was being- taken out of the men in the cab as now — requirements that are beyond the limit of liuman endurance. Few realize the hard years of toil and training it takes and the many examinations required to become an engineer, and the many examinations he is subjected to after he has .become an engineer. The boy comes from the farm, preferably; if not, from wher- ever they can get him, and he enters the service of the com]^any as a fireman. He must be physically perfect in order to stand the lieavv toil demanded of him. He must not be beyond a cer- tain age, usually not to exceed 28 years. He must not weigh less than 145 pounds nor more than 190. He must be not less than 5 feet 4 inches in height, and not over 6 feet 1 inch. Lungs, heart action, eyesight, hearing and color perception must be per- fect. On many of our roads the physical examination is more rigid than the United States Government requires for men en- listing in the armv or the navv. The boy fulfills all these requirements and enters the serv- ice as a fireman, and, in most cases, shovels from ten to thirty 39 tons of coal each trip: shovels it into a white-hot fire box, heated to hundreds of degrees of temperature, looking into this white heated furnace to see where to place each shovelful of coal; the intense heat blinding his eyesight and blistering his skin on the left side, Avhile the right side of his body is exposed to a wind cutting through the gangway and weather anywhere from 120 degrees above to 55 below zero. If he survives this for a year, he is given his first examination and he must pass a certain percentage of the questions asked. This percentage varies on the different roads, but is usually from 75 to 85 per cent. He continues for another vear and is given his second examination and must pass 85 per cent of the questions asked, for a rating. Then, another year as fireman, and he is given his third and final examination as a fireman. He is also examined on air brakes and machinery by the motive power department, and on book of rules, train orders and signal rules by the transporta- tion department, and he must pass 85 per cent on his rating. If he passes all these, he is then sent to the company's surgeon for another physical examination, also eyesight, hearing, color perception, etc. If he passes all of these, he is given a certificate showing he is qualified and is available for service as an engineer. He runs extra trips as an engineer and fires during the rest of the time his services are not required as an engineer. He will continue to do this for perhaps two to ten years, before being regularly assigned to service as an engineer. During all this time there has been a gradual sifting out process. Many quit because tliej are physically unable to stand the strain, others because they can make more money under more favor- able working conditions elsewhere; others are rejected because of defective eyesight from the intense glare and heat of the firebox. After he becomes an engineer, on many roads, he is subject to re-examination on the book of rules, air brakes, block signals, etc., at stated periods, and is subject to being called in at any time Avhen, in the judgment of the local officials, it is necessary, for a re-examination. Again, these requests should be given consideration on account of the hazard of the profession. The profession of the men in the cab of a locomotive is classed as extra-hazardous. 40 None of tlie old line insurance companies care to insure them at all and, if they do insure them, charge an extra premium. So, both organizations here represented have their own insurance. The exhibits we shall present during these proceedings are com- piled from our own insurance departments, and you can rely on their being accurate. In addition to the hazard of the profession, the man in the cab of the locomotive has the further hazard of loss of position. We have spoken of the rigid discipline today on the different roads. When God created man in his own image, he endowed him with a mind to act for himself. No one can g-uarantee that a man will continue to perform the same duty in exactly the same way day in and day out, year in and year out, like a machine, so we will always have the human element to deal with. Yet, the same duty is required of the man in the cab of the locomotive, not only every day but every minute of every day when he is on duty, no matter what the condition of the weather may be, whether it is a stifling heat or bitter cold, rain, sleet, snow, or fog thick as wool, the same requirements are demanded and no excuse is accepted for failure, no matter what the phys- ical condition of the man may be. In presenting our case, we shall hope to show by our wit- nesses the changed conditions under which they work and the present requirements, as compared with the conditions in effect when the present schedules were agreed upon. We shall en- deavor to show, by exhibits and in other Avays, that during the past twenty-four years the western railroads have make remark- able gains in productive efficiency, by the installation of locomo- tives of greater tractive power, by the elimination of curves and the reduction of grades, and remarkable increases in train- loads have been made. In the last analysis, the burden of all these economies in the interest of the railroad investments are borne by the men in the transportation service. These develop- ments have had a three-fold effect on the engineers and firemen : (1) Increase in their labors and responsibilities, (2) their pro- ductive efficiencv has been greatly increased, (3) their earning capacity, even at the slightly increased rates of payment they have received, has declined. We hope to be able to show that these railroads, not satis- fied with the present hard conditions, that are already beyond 41 the limit of human endurance, are intending to add still further to the existing trainloads, thereby increasing the labors and responsibilities of the engineers and firemen. We expect to be able to show that the revenue gains arising from the advances already made in the productive efficiency of the western railroads have been sufficiently great to pay all in- creases in operating costs, as well as reasonable returns on the additional capital investments and, in addition, leave an ample surplus to remunerate engineers and firemen for their increased work and productive efficiency. This, in a general way, is the outline of the case w^e are about to present to you. It is not my purpose to discuss the articles at this time. I would rather leave them to the bringing out of their intent from the witnesses w^e shall put on the stand, so that full opportunity may be given for cross examination, if it is desired. I would like to call the attention of the Board of Arbitra- tion to this one fact : that, in proceedings of this kind, the arbi- tration agreement contains the demands of the brotherhoods, but just what defense the railroads will interpose to this has not been disclosed. We cannot anticipate their defense. The position of the railroads may be that the members of the Brotherhoods are already receiving sufficient compensation; or, it may be that they are not in the financial condition to grant the demands of the Brotherhoods; or, it may be both of these defenses, in connection with some other defense. But, whatever their defenses may be, we expect to meet them at the proper time and with the proper evidence, and we expect to reserve the right to meet the position of the railroads by proper evidence after such position has been disclosed by the e\T.dence of the railroads. There is another thing, gentlemen of the Board, that I think should be brought to your attention, at this time, and that is the question of the division of time between the Brotherhoods and the railroads for the presentation of evidence. Inasmuch as the Brotherhoods are assuming the position of plaintiffs, in this case, we feel that we should have something more than an equal division of time to compensate for the time which it will be necessary to consume in rebuttal. This ques- tion would not necessarilv arise if it were not for the fact that 42 the time limit is fixed by the arbitration agreement at three months, and during that time the holidays and a number of Sundays intervene. So far as the Brotherhoods are concerned, they are willing to leave the matter to the Board of Arbitration, ^vithout any restrictions or time limits on either side, if the railroads will agree that if, in the judgment of the Board, additional time, over the limit placed by the arbitration agreement, is necessary, the Board may grant such additional time as it may deem neces- sary for the presentation of the evidence and for the arguments of counsel. However, we feel that this matter should be passed upon by the Board at an early date, so that the parties hereto* may know just what time they have at their disposal. That is a question, gentlemen, that is, I think, of vital importance to both sides in regard to shaping the testimony of our witnesses and the introducing of evidence. That, in a general way, completes our opening statement of the case. THE CHAIRMAN : The question which you raise now as to the amount of time to be accorded to the employees for the purpose of putting in rebutting testimony will be decided later by the Board, i^erhaps, this afternoon. We have twenty-five minutes before the recess in which to hear from the opposite side. OPENING STATEMENT ON BEHALF OF THE WESTERN RAILWAYS Mr. Sheean: May it please the Board, in view of the state- ment made on behalf of the employees, it does not seem to me feasible for the railroads, at this time, to take up and discuss in detail the reasons for declining particular articles of the presen- tation as made. I think about all that can be said, at this time, on behalf of the railroads is that the present rates of pay and compensatory rules, as applied to the different railroads involved in this movement are full, fair and adequate. There is no dis- position, at this time, to quarrel with most of the statements made by Mr. Stone as to the responsibility of the engineer, as to the responsibility of the fireman, as to the fact that the railroad companies are desirous of keeping and maintaining com- 43 petent men, and paying such men salaries commensurate with the duties and responsibilities that are imposed upon them. There has been no intimation or suggestion, in the opening- statement on behalf of the Brotherhoods, as to why any one of these rules or why any number of the rules which they present are necessary to furnish compensation adequate to meet the re- quirements of the particular service. I simply want to say, in order that the Board may have before it the facts out of which this controversy arises, that there was an adjustment with both organizations in 1910. There was one adjustment, I think, by arbitration, and the other through mediation, so that most of the matters that have been indicated here with reference to the growing responsibility or changed conditions during the past twenty-four years, or quarter of a century, have, of course, been considered, presented and passed upon, either by arbitra- tion in 1910 or by mutual agreement of the parties. It is the position of the railroad companies that, between 1910 and this date, there has been no such change, either in operating conditions or in the duties or responsibilities imposed upon the men, as would justify an increase, at this time, above the increases which were granted three or four years ago. Of course, it will be necessary, as the case proceeds, that the railroads should be advised of the reasons advanced for the in- corporation into the schedules of the different companies, of new rules and departures from principles that had existed in the schedules of most of the roads for many, many years. I do not want, at this time, to violate the rules of an open- ing statement by indulging in any argument with reference to any of these particular propositions. In view of the fact that there has been no outline of the reasons which, in the judgment of the men, are behind each of these propositions as made, it is not feasible that I should suggest the reasons why any particu- lar one or any particular number of these rules would serve to permit arbitrary payments, and to require from different railroad companies double, treble or even quadruple payments for service rendered during a single trip or a single day. So that, at this time, if the Board pleases, we ask leave to reserve the right of outlining the evidence or statistics we shall intro- duce in defense, until the completion of the case made. I think 44 that request is reasonable, if the Board pleases, in view of the fact that, at this time, there lias been no outline or suggestion of just what proof would be introduced in support of any par- ticular article. I do not mean, if the Board pleases, to ask leave to make any argument at that time, but simply to aid both counsel and the Board, in advance, to understand the purpose and object of the presentation of particular statistics and particular data. That does not seem to be feasible or even desirable, at this time, imtil we know just what evidence may be introduced by the complainants or proponents in support of a particular article or particular articles in their proposal. Mr. Nagel: Maj^ I ask you one question? Mr. Sheean: Certainly. Mr. Nagel: In resisting these claims, do the railroads take the position that the present allowances are reasonable under normal conditions, or do they base their objections upon the railroad conditions of the immediate present? Mr, Sheean: I would answer the first question affirmatively, that it is our position that the compensation provided for in these schedules is full, fair and adequate, under normal condi- tions. If the claim of increased productive efficiency which was adverted to in the opening statement be advanced by the other side they will probably introduce by way of defense tht^ fact that efficiency has not resulted in profits on which I assume increased productive efficiency fundamentally rests. Perhaps I ought to say, if the Board will indulge me just a moment, that the request as made is of universal application to the ninety-eight railroads involved, with reference to these schedules, or the arbitrary allowances or differentials that may obtain in any of the schedules. So that, instead of making for standardization or uniformity as among the different schedules, the request as presented is, in fact, a pyramiding and a wider separation by reason of the variety of differentials in different schedules, and the imposition upon that varying base of a uni- form standard, wiiich, of course, would cause a departure from uniformity rather than work for uniformity. Mr. Nagel: Do you claim that those differences resulted from former arbitrations and adjustments? rV 45 Mr. Slieean: Oh, yes. The differences between different; schedules 1 Mr. Nagel. Yes. Mr. Sheean: Oh, clearly, your Honor. Perhaps, by way of illustration, I could make my point clearer on that. You may have, as to one railroad, a rate of five dollars per day, or one hundred miles, ten hours or less, a rate of five dollars. The schedule of that road may provide that the time of that engi- neer and fireman shall begin when he is called upon to report for duty, and end when he is finally released from duty. Now, another schedule may have a provision that the engineer shall be released at the depot. That schedule, however, having such a provision as that, may carry a rate of only $4.50, but with a provision that he shall be allowed, on each and every trip, one hour for taking his train from the depot to the roundhouse, in case he does. So that, in order to ascertain what the compen- sation of any particular man may be, there must be a considera- tion not only of rates but also of the rules to which the rate is applicable in that schedule. And, therefore, if your Honors please, although there .might be an absolute uniformity in rates when they are spread over ninety-eight different roads and ap- plied to different bases, the one having an arbitrary allow- ance — either at the beginning or the end of the day, or at an intermediate part of it — the uniform rate would produce at the- end of the identical day a different sum of money under the two different schedules, and this lack of uniformity is not because of different arbitrations. I, perhaps, should have said that there was, by concerted movement, in 1910 (in the one case through mediation, and in the other by arbitration) a settlement of the differences of these roads, up to that time. And, therefore, I spoke of 1910 as the- starting point on which we shall base our claim that change or changing conditions was lost in consideration of the question as to whether or not that was not departure from the rates and rules then established. I am perfectly willing, at this time, to say that, as to the suggestion of Mr. Stone that at any time the Board thinks it desirable or necessary, either to a proper presentation of the case, a proper understanding, or a proper consideration of it,. 46 that there is no dispositiou upon the part of the railroad com- panies to object in any manner to the granting of any extension that may be thought reasonabk^ and necessary for the fullest and freest and most complete presentation of the case of either side. Mr. Stone: That being true, gentlemen, I would ask that the Secretary of the Board draw uj) a stifjulation that both parties should sign, so as to make it a matter of record, to that effect, so that there can be no question. Mr. Sheean : I think, in view of the statements, which are a matter of record, Mr. Stone, the statements having been made by both sides, that the Board can at any time make a ruling to meet the situation. Not that I object to it. Mr. Stone : I am not versed in legal practice, so I do not know whether the Board, by a statement made in the record, would have the power to set aside a written contract fixing the time or not, but, if they do not have, then, I think it should be made a matter of stipulation by both parties to the contract. The Chairman : Any stipulation you may enter into will, of course, be respected by the Board. Mr. Stone: It is not my purpose to take up the time of the Board, at this time, but I want to call your attention to the statement in my opening address, wherein I said it was not my intention to discuss these articles in detail at the time, pre- ferring to bring them out by the witnesses whom we shall put on the stand. I also w^ant to disabuse the minds of the Board of an im- pression which may have been made by one statement of my opponent, Avhich I think he did not intend just that way. With those two exceptions, there is not a single thing in the requests that we are making that is not already in effect on some of the railroads involved and, if the articles were granted in their entirety, I believe my opponent would agree with me thej^ would go a long way toward leveling up the little spots and bringing about standardization in the western territory. The Chairman: The Board will take a recess until 2 o 'clock. (Whereupon, at 12:22 o'clock P. M., November 30, 1914, an ftdjournment was taken until 2 o'clock P. M.) 47 After Recess. The Chairman: Are you ready to proceed? Mr. Stone: I was wondering, Mr. Chairman, if it wouhl not be convenient for you to have a copy of the articles, in printed form, before you for reference. (Handing up copies.) I desire to present, as our first exhibit, Exhibit Number 1, the book of agreements that are now in effect in the Western Terri- tory on the railroads involved in this arbitration, for engineers, and to put on the stand, as our schedule man and first witness, Mr. M. W. Cadle, Assistant Grand Chief Engineer of the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers. (The Book of Agreements so offered and identified, was re- ceived in evidence and marked ^'Employes' Exhibit Number 1, November 30, 1914," and is filed herewith.) M. W. CADLE was called as a witness and, being duly sworn, testified as follows: DIRECT EXAMINATION. Mr. Stone : Mr. Cadle, state to the Board your experience and your present occupation, so that they will understand that you are familiar with wage making. Mr. Cadle: Well, I am filling the position of Assistant Grand Chief Engineer, at the present time. I have had some little experience in dealing with these schedules. My duties with the engineers have made it necessary for me to pass on some of the rules, regulations and rates in those schedules. Mr. Stone: You are reasonably familiar with the sched- ules in existence in this Western territory, in this Exhibit Num- ber 1, are you not ? Mr. Cadle : Well, yes, sir ; reasonably so. The Chairman: Did I catch what position this witness occupies f Mr. Stone: He is Assistant Grand Chief Engineer of the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers, one of our field officers, whose duty it is to go around and meet with the different com- mittees of the different roads. It is our purpose to prove by this witness that these requests of ours, with one or two slight exceptions, are already in effect in this territory. 48 The Chairman: Let the witness tell what he may know about it. Mr. Stone: Taking- up the first article of the request, Article Number I, passenger service, ''100 miles or less, five hours or less, will constitute a day's work in all classes of passenger service. All mileage in excess of 100 miles shall be paid for pro rata." Do you know of any railroads where the basis of day's pay for passenger service is five hours'? Mr. Cadle : There are forty-seven railroads in the Eastern territory that pay on the five hour day basis or compute the time on twenty miles an hour basis. Mr. Stone : Are there any in the Western territory? Mr. Cadle: There are fourteen railroads in the Western territory that compute their time on a twenty mile an hour basis or a five hour day. Mr. Stone: Are there any in the Southeastern territory? Mr. Cadle : There are twenty-four railroads in the South- east that compute their day's work on a twenty mile an hour or five hour day basis. Mr. Stone : Are there any roads that have a basis of less than five hours for a day's work, in passenger service; com- puted on less than five hours, I mean? Mr. Cadle : There are two railroads in the Southeast that compute their time on a twenty-five mile an hour basis, which means a four hour day, in passenger service. Mr. Stone : Are there any roads that have a ten hour day in the passenger service in the Western territory? Mr. Cadle: Why, there are twenty-nine railroad systems that have a ten hour day, in the Western territory. Mr. Stone : What have they in the Southeastern territory, any roads there that pay on a ten hour day? Mr. Cadle: We have got three railroad systems that pay on a ten hour basis. Mr. Stone: Are there any roads that pay on the basis of the scheduled time of the train? Mr. Cadle: In the Southeast? Mr. Stone: Anywhere. Mr. Cadle: Yes, there are railroads that pay after the schedule of the train has been exceeded one hour. ,^ 49 Mr. 8tone : Are there any roads that have an eleven-honr day, in the passenger service? Mr. Cadle: There are two railroads in the Southeast that have an eleven-hour day. Mr. Stone : Are there any roads in the Western territoiy that have an eight-hour day in the passenger service f Mr. Cadle : There are four railroads in the Western terri- tory that pay on an eight-hour basis. Mr. Stone : Are there any railroads that have the irregular basis of day's pay, in the passenger service! Mr. Cadle: There are four railroads in the Western terri- tory that pay for irregular service on fifteen miles an hour, which means a six-hour and fortv-minute dav. Mr. Stone: Are there any that have a nine-hour day! Mr. Cadle: There is one that has a nine-hour day. Five hours and thirty-three minutes, eighteen miles an hour. Mr. Stone: Is there any basis for computing a day's pay in the irregular passenger service, in the AVestern territory? Mr. Cadle: There are eight railroads that compute the irregular passenger service on a twenty-mile an hour basis, which means a five-hour day. Mr. Stone: Are there any roads in the Western territory that use the trip basis for payment in passenger service? Mr. Cadle : Ask your question again. Mr; Stone : Are there any roads that use the trip basis in passenger service — paid by the trip? Mr. Cadle: There is one railroad that pays by the trip. They have a fixed rate per day. Mr. Stone: Are there any railroads that pay a minimum day's rate, in passenger service? Mr. Cadle: In the Southeastern territory there are seven- teen railroad systems that have a minimum of five dollars for irregular passenger service. Mr. Stone: Is it for irregular passenger service or all passenger service? Mr. Cadle: All passenger service. Mr. Stone: A minimum day's wage of five dollars? Mr. Cadle : Yes, sir. Mr. Stone : Are there any other road's that have a different minimum from the five dollars? 50 Mr. Cadle: Tlicrc are five railroads in the Soutlioastern territory that liave a mininiuin of $5.15 a dav. Mr. Stone: Wlien you say a miiiinunn, wliat do yon mean by that ? Mr, Cadle: I mean that tliat is the minimum wage for that dav's work. A man mav go out and run thirtv or forty miles and if that is all the work that they have for him to do in that day, they will pay him $5.15 for it. Mr. Stone: In other words, it is a guaranteed minimum wage for any service he may perform in that day? Mr. Cadle: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: Are there any other roads that have a differ- ent minimum basis? Mr. Cadle: There are two roads that have a minimum of $4.50 per day. There is one railroad that has a minimum of 110 miles per day. Mr. Stone Mr. Cadle Mr. Stone Mr. Cadle Mr. Stone At what rate? At the regular i)assenger rate. According to the class of engine? Yes. $5.25 and $5.40. Will you explain how the minimum daily rate compares vith the regular day rate? Mr, Cadle: The daily rate, in ])assenger service, for an engine with a cylinder of twenty inches and under in diameter, pays $4.25. Over twenty-one inches pays $4.40. Now, if a man runs less than 100 miles in passenger service, instead of taking the $4.40 rate or the $4.25 rate, he gets $5.15. They guarantee him a minimum — or $4.15 or $4.40, they guarantee a minimum of $5 Mr. Stone: You just said a short time ago $5.15 and $5.40. Mr. Cadle: $5.25 and $5.40 is the passenger rate in the southeast. Mr. Stone: Do you not mean $4.15? Mr. Cadle: $4.15, yes. Mr. Stone: The reason I coiTect it is that I do not want to get anything wrong into the record. Mr. Cadle: It is $4.25 and $4.40 in the passenger service. The Chairman: het the testimony of the witness be cor- rected in that respect. 51 Mr. Stone: How is it in the western territory on thesis rail- roads, whicli are a party to this agreement? Wliat is tlie gen- eral rnle? Mr. Cadle: 100 miles or less, 10 hours or less, is their minimum. Mr. Stone: Can you give the names of these fourteen roads in the western territory that have a basis of 20 miles an hour? Mr. Cadle: Yes, there is the Illinois Central, the Kansas City Southern, the Kansas City, Mexico and Orient, the San Antonio & Aransas Pass, the St. Louis, Brownsville & Mexico, the St. Louis & San Francisco, Ft. Worth & Gulf, the Wabash Railroad, the Yazoo & Mississippi Valley Railroad, the New Orleans, Texas & Mexico Railroad, the Chicago & Eastern Illi- nois Railroad, Missouri, Kansas & Texas Railroad, Chicago, Peoria & St. Louis Railroad, and the El Paso & Southwestern Railroad. Mr. Stone: Can you give the names of the roads in the eastern territory which have a 20 mile an hour basis for com- puting the passenger basis of a day's pay? Mr. Cadle: The Baltimore & Ohio, the Bessemer & Lake Erie, the Boston & Albany, the Boston & Maine, the Buffalo, Rochester & Pittsburgh, the Buffalo and Susquehanna, the Cen- tral Railroad of New England, the Chicago, Indianapolis & Louisville, the Chicago & Indiana Southern, the Chicago, Terre Haute & Southern, the Cincinnati Northern, the Cincinnati^ Ham- ilton & Dayton, the C. C. C. & St. Louis (Big Four System), the Coal & Coke, the Delaware & Hudson, Delaware, Lackawanna & Western, the Detroit, Toledo & Ironton, the Dunkirk, Alle- gheny Valley & Pittsburgh, the Erie, the Grand Rapids & Indi- ana, the Hocking Valley, the Indiana Harbor Belt, the Kanawha & Michigan, the Lake Erie & W^estern, the Lake Erie, Alliance & Wheeling, the Lehigh Valley, the Long Island, the Lake Shore & Michigan Southern, the Maine Central, the Michigan Central, the New York Central, the New York, Chicago & St. Louis, the New York, New Haven & Hartford, the New York, Ontario & Western, the New York, Philadelphia & Norfolk, the New York, Susquehanna & Western, the Pennsylvania Lines East, the Pennsylvania Lines West, the Pere Marquette, the Pittsburgh & Lake Erie, the Reading Railroad, the Toledo & Ohio Central, the Toledo, St. Louis & Western, the Vandalia 52 Lines, the Western Maryland, the Wheeling & Lake Erie, and the Zanesville & Western — forty-seven railroads. Mr. Stone: Can you give the names of the twenty-four roads in the southeastern territory where they compute the basis of passenger trains on a speed basis of 20 miles an hour? It might be well to exj^lain to the Board of Arbitration that the Interstate Commerce Commission divides the railroads of the country into three distinct districts: What is known as the '* eastern territory," lying east of Chicago and north of the Ohio river, I believe, the Norfolk & Western being the divid- ing line; what is known as the "southeastern territory," IjTing south of the Ohio river, and east of the Illinois Central as a dividing line, and what is known as the "western territory," comprising the Illinois Central and all lines west of it, from the Gulf to the Canadian Northern and the Canadian Pacific lines west of Ft. William. So, it is really divided into three groups, and that is the way in which the wage schedules have been built up. The Chairman: Could you not submit a list as to the dif- ferent classes of rates, and have the other side agi'ee to it, as to that particular point, without going into all this with the witness? Mr. Stone: Each one of these? The Chairman : Yes. As I understand, these railroads are grouped together into distinct classes, as to certain rates. Mr. Stone: If it is the wish of the Board, that we do so, I think perhaps we can agree on the classification of the roads. Mr. Sheean : As to the territorv, there is no difficultv about that. As to whether these schedules give a five-hour day or not, as the witness has enumerated, I do not think we can agree. The Chairman : That is the point I was inquiring about. Mr. Sheean: I do not think it is possible to agree as to those rates being a five-hour day, because all the provisions of the schedules must be considered. Mr. Park for instance, will not, I think, assent to the proposition that he is on a five-hour day basis on the Illinois Central. All the provisions of the schedule must be considered together. The Chairman: We are about through with it and we might as well go on, but it seems as though it would save a good deal of time. ' • . >^ 53 Mr. Cadle : Please ask your question again"? Mr. Stone: Can you give the names of the twenty-four roads in the southeastern territory where they compute the basis of passenger trains on a speed basis of twenty miles an hour? Mr. Cadle: The Alabama Great Southern, the Alabama & Vicksburg, the Atlanta, Birmingham & Atlantic, the Atlantic Coast Line, the Carolina, Clinchfield & Ohio, the Carolina, Clinchfield & Ohio of South Carolina, the Central of Georgia, the Charleston & West Carolina, the Cincinnati, New Orleans & Texas, the Georgia Railroad & Atlanta Terminal, the Georgia & Southern Florida, the Gulf & Ship Island, the Louisville & Nashville, the Mobile & Ohio, the New Orleans & Great Northern, the New Orleans, Mobile & Chicago, the New Orleans & North- western, the Norfolk & Southern, the Raleigh, Charleston & Southern, the Seaboard Air Line, the Southern Railroad of Vir- ginia, the Virginia South- Western, the Northern Alabama, the Southern Railroad of Mississippi, the Tennessee Central, the Vicksburg, Shreveport & Pacific, the Virginian, East & West of Roanoke. Those are twenty-four railroads. Mr. Stone: In the Southeastern territory, in all cases where a minimum daily rate is shown, it is higher than the regu- lar day rate, is it not 1 Mr. Cadle : Yes, five dollars. Mr. Stone: And you understand that all these roads that you have named over — that the basis of a day's work is five hours, and overtime begins after the completion of five hours! Mr. Cadle: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone : Of those that are on a 20 mile an hour basis I Mr. Cadle : The measure of a day's work of an engineer on a 20 mile an hour basis is, 100 miles or less, constitutes a day's work. Mr. Stone: I might ask for information, Mr, Chairman. Does the other side wish to cross-examine on each class of service as we go along, or after we have completed with the wit- ness? Mr. Sheean: I would rather you would complete with the witness. The Chairman : Put in your testimony, and then when the witness gets through we will turn him over to the other side for cross-examination. 54 Mr. Stone: Taking up Paragraph 2 of Article 1: *'A11 other service except switching. One hundred miles or less, 10 hours or less, will constitute a day's work in all classes of service except passenger and switching service. All mileage in excess of 100 miles shall be paid for pro rata. Ten miles ' run will be the equivalent of one hour's service performed, or vice versa. ' ' How many roads in the Western territory compute their basis on freight trains on ten miles an hour? In other words, what is the basis of through freight pay in the Western territory? Mr. Cadle: One hundred miles or less, 10 hours or less, on the principal part of the railroads. Mr. Stone: Are there any roads in the Western territory that are on an eight-hour day? Mr. Cadle: There are six railroads in the West that com- pute their daj^'s work on an eight-hour day, measure it that w^ay. Mr. Stone: That is freight service? Mr. Cadle: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: Are there any roads in the. Western territory that have a nine-hour day? Mr. Cadle : There are two railroads in the West that have a nine-hour day. Mr. Stone: Give the names of those two railroads. Mr. Cadle : They are the Canadian Northern and the Grand Trunk Pacific. Mr. Stone: Will you give the names of the roads in the western territory that are on an eight-hour day, some six, I believe ? Mr. Cadle: They are the El Paso & Southeastern; the Houston, East & West Texas; the Houston & Shreveport; the San Antonio & Aransas Pass; the St. Louis, Bro^vnsville & New Mexico; the Southern Pacific Railroad (that is, the Pacific lines in the Valley district). Mr. Stone: Is not the Houston & Texas Central on an eight-hour day? Mr. Cadle: Yes, sir. The Houston, East & West and the Houston & Texas Central are both on an eight-hour day. Mr. Stone: These are all freight rates you are talking about now? Y^ 55 Mr. Cadle: Yes. Mr. Stone: How do the bases of pay in the Western terri- tory compare with those in the Southeastern territory? Mr. Cadle: The principal part of the railroads in the Southeastern territory in freight service compute their time on a 12Vi> mile an hour basis, which means an eight hour day. Mr. Stone : Then, in other words, there are only a few roads in the Southeastern territory that have as long a day as ten hours ? Mr. Cadle: Yes. There are just a few of them. Mr. Stone: How many roads have we in the Western terri- tory that compute the basis of a day's work in freight service on ten hours? Mr. Cadle : There are 59 railroad systems in the West that compute their day's work on 100 miles or less, 10 hours or less. Mr. Stone : Then, if your statement is correct, there are six railroads in the Westerii territory that have an eight hour day, as against seventeen railroads in the Southeastern territory. Is that correct? Mr. Cadle: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone : Is it correct that there are two railroads in the Western territory that have an eight hour and twenty minute day as against one in the Southeast territory in freight service ? Mr. Cadle: Yes, sir, there are two railroads that have an eight-hour-and-twenty-minute day, and one in the Southeastern territory. Mr. Stone : How many railroads are there in the West that have a nine-hour day as compared with the Southeastern ? Mr. Cadle : There are two railroads in the Southeast that have a nine-hour day. Mr. Stone : No. Mr. Cadle : There are two railroads in the west that have a nine-hour day, 100 miles or less to constitute a day's work. Mr. Stone : How many are there in the southeast ? Mr. Cadle : In the Southeastern territory there are 11 rail- roads in the Southeastern territory that compute their time on a nine hour day. Mr. Stone: What is meant by ''all mileage in excess of 100 miles shall be paid for pro rata"? ' Mr. Cadle : What is meant by it ? 56 Mr. Stone: What does it mean? Mr. Cadle : It means that if a man runs one mile over one hundred he will get the same amount of money for the last mile that he ran as he did the first one. If the rate was five dollars, he would get five cents. Mr. Stone : Then it means computing each additional mile above one hundred at the rate ])er mile for the class of engine? Mr. Cadle: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: What is meant by the sentence, "Ten miles run will be the equivalent of one hour's service performed"? Mr. Cadle : If a man runs ten miles, he would get his hour for it at the daily engine rate. Mr. Stone: Suppose you had a combination of miles and hours both in the same trip, how would it be computed? Mr. Cadle: Whichever was the greater under the ma- jority of the schedules. Mr. Stone: Do vou know of anv roads in the Western territory where ten miles run is equivalent to one hour's service performed ? Mr. Cadle: Yes, sir, there are a great many of them. Very nearly all of them. I think I have enumerated those. Mr. Stone: You understand, then, that this Article, ''In all service except passenger and switching," would make a mini- mum day of ten hours or less ! Mr. Cadle: Yes. Mr. Stone: 100 miles or less for a day's work? Mr. Cadle: Yes. Mr. Stone : That is, all other service except passenger and switching ? Mr. Cadle: Yes. Mr. Stone: "Overtime in road service. Passenger service. Overtime in passenger service will be computed and paid for on a basis of twenty miles per hour at rate for each class of engine used." Do you know any road in the western country where it is paid that way at the present time ? Mr. Cadle : I enumerated fourteen railroads. Mr. Stone : I do not think you quite catch the question, Mr. Cadle. Do these railroads pay on the basis of twenty miles for each hour overtime, or on the basis of ten miles? Mr. Cadle: The measure of dav's work is twentv miles an 57 hour, or five hours, and they pay tlie overtime at the rate of ten miles an hour ; they allow you ten miles instead of twenty. Mr. Stone : In other words, the last hour you work is not worth as much as the other five hours you work! Mr. Cadle : No, it is only worth half as much. Mr. Stone : The way they pay it. Mr. Cadle: Yes. Mr. Stone: The request is that he be paid the same, is it not? Mr. Cadle : Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: "All other road service. Overtime in all other road service except passenger and switching service will be computed on a basis of ten miles per hour and paid for at the rate of 15 miles per hour, at rate for each class of engine used." What does that mean, Mr. Cadle? Mr. Cadle : That means that I would get the daily rate for ten hours for 100 miles or less, ten hours or less. If I earned an hour's overtime, that I would be paid fifteen miles for it. Mr. Stone: What is the object of the fifteen miles for overtime ? Mr. Cadle : Time and a half. Mr. Stone : Why do we ask for time and a half? Mr. Cadle : Well, railroad companies are paying it to their shop men and to their blacksmiths and boiler makers and me- chanics. Mr. Stone : Well, is it not a fact it is largely intended as a penalty time to stop excessive overtime? Mr. Cadle: Yes. The engineers and railroad men call overtime "blood money." They don't want it. Mr. Stone: What is meant by the term "All overtime will be computed on the minute basis"? Mr. Cadle : Well, that means that if I am 10 hours and 10 minutes on the road, or if I am 10 hours and 6 minutes, I will get a mile for it. The idea of computing the time on the minitte basis, as I always understood it, — there never was any good reason why I should stay on a locomotive and give the company 30 minutes of my services without pay, and there never was any good reason why a railroad company should pay me 30 minutes I did not work for. We believe it is absolutely fair to pay a 58 man for what he does, for his work. Now, if a man is 10 hours and 6 minutes on the road, he would get 10 hours and 6 minutes pay, or if he was on a mile run, he would get 101 miles for it. Six minutes is equivalent to one mile, or one mile is equivalent to six minutes. That is to do away mtli the break at 30 minutes ; we have to w^ork 30 minutes on the majority, or a great many railroads, before we would get any overtime at all. That is the object of that rule. Mr. Stone : Your understanding is that these minutes are cumulative, and that for each hour worked a man gives 60 minutes actual time! Mr. Cadle: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: The odd minutes are simply added in for the month? Mr. Cadle: Yes, sir; they are added in to hours and we give the railroad company 60 minutes, an hour's service for an hour's pay, an hour's overtime. Mr. Stone : Article II, rates of pay, passenger service. "The rate in passenger service on locomotives other than the Mallet type weighing less than : Engineers. Firemen. 80,000 pounds on drivers, shall be $4.50 $2.90 80,000 pounds and less than 100,000 on drivers 4.60 3.00 100,000 pounds and less than 140,000 pounds on drivers 4.80 3.15 140,000 pounds and less than 170,000 pounds on drivers 5.00 3.25 170,000 pounds and less than 200,000 pounds on drivers 5.15 3.40 200,000 pounds and less than 225,000 pounds on drivers 5.35 3.50 225,000 pounds and less than 250,000 pounds on drivers 5.50 3.65 250,000 pounds and over, on drivers 5.60 3.75 I simply read this, Mr. Chairman, in order to put it into the record. It is not our purpose to go into the w^eights on drivers and the rates of pay with this witness. With one of the other witnesses we will put on, we will show the weights of all the engines in service, the present rate of pay, the rate of pay asked for in that class of service, and the percentage increase. The Chairman : Well, you may suggest to the reporter in future when you have a case of that kind, to include certain items. Mr. Stone: To save reading. The Chairman : Y'es, to save reading. 59 Mr. Stone : Then I might suggest that the entire x\rticle II may be incorporated, to save reading, simply to make it a matter of record. The Chairman: That is all that is necessary. (The remainder of Article II is as follows:) In all classes of service except passenger and switching service on locomotives other than Mallet type weighing less than : Engineers. Tiremen. 80,000 pounds on drivers shall be $5.00 $3.25 80,000 pounds and less than 100,000 pounds on drivers 5.20 3.40 100,000 pounds and less than 140,000 pounds on drivers 5.40 3.50 140,000 pounds and less than 170,000 pounds on drivers 5.60 3.65 170,000 pounds and less than 200,000 pounds on drivers 5.80 3.75 200,000 pounds and less than 225,000 pounds on drivers 6.10 4.00 225,000 pounds and less than 250,000 pounds on drivers 6.40 4.25 250,000 pounds and over on drivers 6.70 4.50 Mallet type engines, all classes of service, except switching service, weighing less than : Engineers. Firemen. 250,000 pounds on drivers $7.50 $4.90 250,000 pounds and less than 300,000 pounds on drivers 7.75 5.10 300,000 pounds and less than 400,000 pounds on drivers 8.00 5.25 400,000 pounds and over on drivers 8.25 5.50 Pusher, Helper. Mine Runs. Work, Wreck. Belt Line. Transfer, and All Other Unclassified Service. Engineers and Firemen on Locomotives in pusher and helper service, mine runs, work, wreck, belt line and transfer service, and all other unclassified service, will be paid through freight rate according to the class of engine. Divisions Where Grade Is 1.8%. On all divisions where grade is one and eight-tenths per cent or over, an increase of ten per cent over Valley rates will be paid. Narrow Gauge Locomotives. On Roads where narrow-gauge locomotives are in service, a five per cent increase over present rates in effect shall be granted. 60 Electric Locomotives. Electric either Multiple Unit or Single. Gasoline or other Service. Wherever electric, multiple unit, gasoline or other service is installed as a substitute for steam, or is now in operation on any railroad parties to this agreement or on any of the tracks operated or controlled by any of them as part of their system, the Locomotive Engineers and Firemen shall have the right to the position of Motorman and Helper, respectively. The term *' helper" will be understood to mean the second man employed on electric locomotives or other power. Seniority rights. Rules, Hours of Service and Mileage. Seniority rights to be interchangeable. Steam rules, hours of service and mileage to apply with the following rates of pay : Passenger Service. Motorman. Helper. 20,000 lbs. tractive power and less $4,50 $3.35 Over 20,000 lbs. tractive power and less than 25,000 lbs 4.60 3.35 Over 25,000 lbs. tractive power and less than 30,000 lbs 4.70 3.35 Over 30,000 lbs. tractive power and less than 35,000 lbs 4.80 3.35 Over 35,000 lbs. tractive power and less than 40,000 lbs 4.90 3.35 Over 40,000 lbs. tractive power and less than 45,000 lbs 5.00 3.35 Over 45,000 lbs. tractive power and less than 50,000 lbs 5.15 3.35 Over 50,000 lbs. tractive power and less than 55,000 lbs 5.35 3.35 Over 55,000 lbs. tractive power and less than 60,000 lbs 5.50 3.35 Over 60,000 lbs. tractive power and over 5.60 3.35 All other Service except Passenger and Sivitching. Motorman. Helper. 20,000 lbs. tractive power and less $5.00 $3.75 Over 20,000 lbs. tractive power and less than 25,000 lbs 5.20 3.75 Over 25,000 lbs. tractive power and less than 30,000 lbs 5.30 3.75 Over 30,000 lbs. tractive power and less than 35,000 lbs 5.40 . 3.75 Over 35,000 lbs. tractive power and less than 40,000 lbs 5.60 3.75 Over 40,000 lbs. tractive power and less than 45,000 lbs 5.80 3.75 Over 45,000 lbs. tractive power and less than 50,000 lbs 6.00 3.75 Over 50,000 lbs. tractive power and less than 55,000 lbs 6.20 3.75 Over 55,000 lbs. tractive power and less than 60,000 lbs 6.40 3.75 Over 60,000 lbs. tractive power and less than 65,000 lbs 6.60 3.75 Over 65,000 lbs. tractive power and less than 70,000 lbs 6.80 3.75 Over 70,000 lbs. tractive power and over 7.00 3.75 tv 61 Switching Service. Motoiman. Helper. 20,000 lbs. tractive power and less $4.75 $3.10 Over 20,000 lbs. tractive power and less than 40,000 lbs 5.00 3.10 Over 40,000 lbs. tractive power and less than 60,000 lbs 5.50 3.10 Over 60,000 lbs. tractive power 6.00 3.10 Mr. Stone: ''Pusher, Helper, Mine Runs, Work, Wreck, Belt Line, Transfer and all other unclassified service. ''Engineers and Firemen on Locomotives in pusher and helper service, mine runs, work, wreck, belt line and transfer service and all other unclassified service, will be paid through freight rate according to the class of engine." Are there roads in the Western territory, Mr. Cadle, that pay through freight rates for pusher and helper service ? Mr. Cadle Mr. Stone Mr. Cadle Mr. Stone I believe there are some. You haven't a list of the roads, have you? No, sir. Is it not a fact that the services of the pusher and helper engines are practically the same as the engines in through freight service, to a large extent! Mr. Cadle: Well, the work is just the same as the man that runs the head engine. It might be well to state that in the main the helper engine, in the mountains, the helper engine is the engine that couples on to the head end of the train. He couples on to the regularly assigned man. The man that has the pusher, he is the man at the rear end of the train on these mountains where they use three or four engines. I don't see any reason why the man running a pusher or the man running a helper on that train should not be entitled to as much com- pensation for his work as the man that is called "the regular man" on there. All three or four of them are coupled on the same train and perform identically the same work. Mr. Stone : In mine run service, are any of the roads pay- ing the freight rate just at the present time? Mr. Cadle: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: Will you give the roads where they pay this? Mr. Cadle: Yes. In what territory do vou w^ant it? Mr. Stone: In tlie Western territory are there any? Mr. Cadle: Yes, in the Western territory we have the Chicago & Eastern Illinois, the Colorado & Southern, the Denver 62 & Rio Grande, the Midland Valley, the Missouri, Oklahoma & Gulf. The 0. R. & W. pay a monthly rate of $160. Mr. Stone: Are there any roads in the Southeastern terri- tory that pay freight rates for mine run? Mr. Cadle: Yes. There are the Atlantic Coast Line, the Lexington Eastern, the L. & N., the Tennessee Central, the Virginian, and the Carolina, Clinchfield & Ohio. Mr. Stone: Are there any roads in the Eastern territory that pay freight rates for mine runf Mr. Cadle : There are forty-seven that were parties to the Eastern Arbitration Award, all of which pay freight rates. Mr. Stone: It is the minimum freight rate, is it not1 Mr. Cadle: Yes. Mr. Stone: Ai'e work and wreck trains classed the same on all these roads? Mr. Cadle: Yes. The minimum freight rate applies. That is, in the Eastern territory? Yes. ^Vhat are they in the Southeastern territory? Work trains? Work and w^reck trains. We group them both together because they are nearly always the same on any road. Mr. Cadle: There are 26 railroads in the Southeastern territory — Mr. Stone : That pay the freight rate ? Mr. Cadle: That pay the freight rate at a ten hour day. Mr. Stone: Are there any roads in the Western territory that pay the freight rate? Mr, Cadle: All of the railroads in the Western territory that I am acquainted with — that is, a great portion of them — pay the work trains on the basis of ten hours or less. Mr. Stone: They pay the freight rate according to the class of engines, do they? Mr. Cadle : There are some that do and some that do not. Mr. Stone: Are all of tliera on the basis of computing- overtime on a ten hour day? Mr. Cadle: Yes. Mr. Stone : In the belt line service, — is there any belt line ser\'ice that is paying a freight rate! Mr. Cadle: Do vou mean transfer? Mr. Stone Mr. Cadle Mr. Stone Mr. Cadle Mr. Stone 63 Mr. Stone: Practically the same — belt line or transfer. Mr. Cadle: In the Western territory? Mr. Stone : Yes. Mr. Cadle: Yes, there are some of the railroads that are paying the freight rate, Mr. Stone: Are there any rules in the Western territory in these present schedules governing the unclassified service I Mr. Cadle: I do not know what vou term unclassified service. Mr. Stone: Practically, as we say in our article here, ''All other unclassified service." For instance, mixed trains are not classified on some roads, and on some roads they are paid one rate, and on some another. It is not really a classified service, because there is no fixed standard for it. AMiat is the rule in regard to mixed trains in the Western territory? Are there any roads that pay freight pay ? Mr. Cadle : There are forty-two railroads in the Western territory that have a rate fixed for mixed train service. Mr. Stone : Will you give the names of those roads ? Mr. Cadle : There are the Atchison, Topeka & Santa Fe Coast Lines, the Atchison, Topeka & Santa Fe proper, the Can- adian Northern, the Canadian Pacific, the Chicago, Milwaukee & St. Paul, Puget Sound lines; the Chicago and Milwaukee proper, the Chicago & North Western, the Chicago, Peoria & St. Louis, the Colorado & Southern, the Denver & E-io Grande, the El Paso & Southwestern, the Fort Worth & Denver, the Galves- ton, Houston & San Antonio (these are all one system), the Texas & New Orleans, the Louisiana & Western, Morgan's Louisiana & Texas Rairoad, the Iberia & Vermillion, the Great Northern, the Gulf, Colorado & Santa Fe, the Houston, East and AVest Texas, the Houston & Texas Central, the Illinois Central, the International & Great Northern, the Kansas City Southern, the Louisiana Rairoad & Navigation Companj^, the Marshall & East Texas, the Missouri, Kansas & Texas Lines, the Missouri Pacific, the Missouri, Oklahoma & Gulf, the New Orleans, Texas & Mexico Lines, the Northern Pacific, the Oregon Short Line, the San Antonio & Aransas Pass, the St. Louis, Brownsville & Mexico, the St. Louis & San Francisco Lines, the Santa Fe, Prescott & Phoenix, the Southern Pacific System, the Spokane, Portland & Seattle, the Texas Midland, the Texas Pacific, the 64 Trinity & Brazos Valley, the Wabash Railroad west of Detroit^ the Western Pacific, the AYichita Falls, the Yazoo & Mississippi Valley, the Missouri & North Arkansas, forty-two. Mr. Stone : How many roads are there in the Western ter- ritory that pay the through freight rate for all mixed train service ? Mr. Cadle : In the Western territory there are twenty-nine railroads that pay through freight rates for mixed service. Mr. Stone : Will you please give us a list of the roads ? Mr. Cadle : The Atchison, Topeka & Santa Fe, coast lines ; the Atchison, Topeka & Santa Fe, proper ; the Canadian North- ern, the Canadian Pacific, the Chicago, Milwaukee & St. Paul, Puget Sound line, the Chicago, Milwaukee & St. Paul, proper ;^ the Chicago & North Western, the Colorado Southern, the Den- ver & Rio' Grande, The Denver & Salt Lake, the El Paso & SouthAvestern, the Fort Worth & Denver City, the Houston,. Harrison & San Antonio. You might call those the Southern Pacific Atlantic system. All of them are one railroad. Then there are the Great Northern, the Gulf, Colorado & Santa Fe, the Houston, East and West Texas, the Houston & Shreveport, the Houston & Texas Central, the International & Great North- ern, the Kansas City Southern, the Northern Pacific, the Oregon Short Line, the Santa Fe, Prescott & Phoenix, the Southern Pacific, Pacific System, the Spokane, Portland & Seattle, the Texas Midland, the Texas Pacific, the Wabash Railroad west of Detroit, and the Western Pacific, twenty-nine. Mr. Stone: Are there any roads in the Western territory that pay local freight rates for mixed service ? Mr. Cadle: There are nine railroads in the west that pay local rates for mixed train service. Mr. Stone: Will you please give us the names? Mr. Cadle: The Marshall & East Texas, the Missouri^ Kansas & Texas Lines, the Missouri Pacific, the St. Louis, Brownsville & Mexico, the Frisco Line, the St. Louis & San Francisco Line, the Trinity & Brazos Valley, the Wichita Falls, the Missouri & North Arkansas, the San Antonio & Aransas Pass, nine. Mr. Stone: What are the rates in the Southeastern terri- torv for mixed train service ? ^> 65 Mr. Cadle: In the Southeastern territory we have thirtv railroads that pay mixed train service. Mr. Stone: How are they paid on the different roads! The Chairman: What do yon mean by the term "mixed train service"? Mr. Cadle: A train that lianls freight and passengers, or passengers and freight, mixed. The Chairman: It is just a term that is used to describe them? Mr. Cadle: Yes. They will haul freight cars and coaches and accommodation cars. Mr. Stone: Now will you tell us about the rates paid for mixed train service in the Southeastern territory. You said there were thirty railroads that paid a mixed train rate. I asked you about the other railroads in the southeastern territory. Mr. Cadle: There is one railroad in the southeast that pays a mixed train rate, a fiat rate, ten hour day. There is one railroad that pays a mixed train rate of twenty miles per hour for the entire trip. There is one railroad that pays local rates for mixed train service. There is one railroad that pays through freight rates, computed on the basis of eleven miles an hour. That would make a nine hour day. Mr. Stone: Are there any roads that pay the through freight rate in transfer service? Mr. Cadle: Yes, there are railroads that pay the through freight rate in transfer service. Mr. Stone (Reading): "On all divisions where grade is one and eight tenths per cent or over, an increase over Valley rates will be paid."' Are there any roads in this Western terri- tory that pay an extra compensation for mountain service? Mr. Cadle: There are eleven roads that pay an increased rate for mountain service. Mr. Stone: Will you please give them? Mr. Cadle: The Atchison, Topeka & Santa Fe, coast lines, the Atchison, Topeka & Santa Fe, proper, the Canadian Pacific, the Chicago, Mihvaukee & Puget Sound, the Colorado & South- ern, the Denver & Rio Grande — Mr. Stone: On the Denver & Rio Grande, — do you mean the entire system or not ? Mr. Cadle: On the Colorado lines. Then, there are the 66 Northern Pacific, the Oregon-Washing-ton Railroad & Naviga- tion Company, the Santa Fe, Prescott & Phoenix, the Southern Pacific, Pacific System. Mr. Stone: Can you give an exam])le in regard to how this mountain service is paid, so that the Board will understand what is meant by extra compensation for mountain service? Mr. Cadle: These diiTerent railroads have different wavs of allowing it. For example, on the coast lines of the Santa Fe, between Winslow and Williams, Arizona, there are divisions where the actual miles are 92. They allow them 100 miles. They give them eight constructive miles on those mountains, every trip over the road. On the Denver & Rio Grande road, thev have a fixed rate per mile for mountain service. In mountain territory, where the daily rate might be $4.60, for the actual miles run on the mountains you would get just twice 46 cents an hour for that, for the mileage on those mountains. On the Southern Pacific Railroad, they allow constructive mileage. For instance, the actual miles of the run over moun- tain territory might be 97 miles, and they would allow them, in some instances, perhaps, 118 miles or 120 miles, so that they get an increased rate of pay. On the Chicago, Milwaukee & Puget Sound they allow their freight engineers on the moun- tains twelve constructive miles each trip in freight service. In passenger service, they allow them six constructive miles. Now, that is added on to their daily rate. You might run 90 miles on passenger service in the mountain territory and for that you would get a full day, a full 100 miles and the six constructive miles, or, in other words, you would get 106 miles for your day's work in that mountain territory. Mr. Stone : Then, the practice of allowing either additional miles or extra compensation for mountain service is common on these western roads, is it not! Mr. Cadle : Yes. Mr. Stone: On roads that have mountain service? Mr. Cadle : Yes, they pay additional compensation. Mr. Stone: Is there a difference in the rates of pay be- tween mountain and valley service on the narrow gauge lines ? Mr. Cadle : The Denver & Rio Grande increase the rate of pay on their Colorado lines. 67 Mr. Stone : What does the Colorado & Southern do? Mr. Cadle : It has increased the mountain rate. Mr. Stone : When the grade is very steep, they have a very much shorter basis for a day's work, do they not? Mr. Cadle : The Colorado & Southern have a 44 mile day in mountain service and an 85 mile day in their valley service. Mr. Stone: On the narrow gauge part of the Colorado & Southern ? Mr. Cadle : Yes. Mr. Stone (Reading): "On roads where narrow gauge locomotives are in service a five per cent increase over present rates in effect shall be granted." The Chairman: A member of the Board desires to ask a question. Mr. Stone: Certainly. Mr. Burgess: I understood you to say, on that example running out of Winslow, Arizona, the engineer ran 92 miles and got 100 miles on liis mountain run. Mr. Cadle: Yes, that is one example. They have a great many runs, but I gave tliat for an example of the way they in- creased the rate of pay on mountain service. Mr. Burgess: I did not understand whether vou meant 100 miles or 108 miles, because the engineer would get 100 miles if he ran only 92 miles in a level territory. Mr. Cadle: He gets eight constructive miles. For his 92 miles lie will be allowed 100 miles, and he will get his eight con- structive miles in addition. Mr. Burgess: Then you intended to say that he would get 108 miles for the 92 mile run, instead of 100 miles? Mr. Cadle: Yes. Mr. Nagel : I think you said 106. Mr. Cadle: That was another example. Mr. Burgess: I think the record will show that he said he would only get 100 miles, when he really intended to say that he would get 108 miles, on that example. Mr. Stone: I think perhaps you could make it plainer to the Board if you would take an example of where the mileage is over 100 miles, for example, between Winslow and Ashfork on the Santa Fe, where the actual miles are 115, and they are al- 6S lowed 129 miles for the trip, an addition of fourteen eonstruetive miles. Mr. Park: Is there not another system of paying on mountain grades largely in vogue, for instance, on the Santa Fe or the Burlington? Mr. Cadle: In mountain territory? Mr. Park: Yes. Mr. Cadle: They may increase the rate on the engine. Mr. Park: Are you familiar with the Santa Fe? Mr. Cadle: Yes. Mr. Park : Does the same class of engine running out of Kansas City pay the same running out of Trinidad? Mr. Cadle: No, sir. Mr. Park: That is what 1 was getting at. Mr. Cadle: We are speaking about mountain roads now. Mr. Park: That would be a higher rate for the same class of engines. Mr. Cadle: Yes. East of La Junta to Chicago, they call that "valley rates," on the Santa Fe, and they have a ditferent rate there. Mr. Park: That is still another system of paying the mountain mileage? Mr. Cadle: No, sir. Mr. Park: Different from all you have described. Mr. Cadle: No, sir. Mr. Park: Really, it is not constructive mileage. Mr. Cadle : I do not quite understand you. Mr. Park: An engine of a certain weight on the drivers, running out of Kansas City on the Santa Fe, in the valley, is paid a certain rate. Mr. Cadle: Yes. Mr. Park: That engine running on the mountain is paid a higher rate? Mr. Cadle: Yes. Mr. Park: The same engine? Mr. Cadle: Yes. Mr. ]*ark: And that is not constructive mileage. That is regular mileage on a higher rate. Mr. Cadle: Yes. The Chairman: Proceed. 69 Mr. Stone : I miglit also add, if I may be allowed to, that on some of the western roads, where the grade is over a certain per cent, there is an allowance of a certain percentage increase for a certain class engine, but the grade fixes the rate that the engine would carry. I would also like to call the attention of the Board to the fact that, when you get the mountain service, it is a much shorter day. For instance, it is forty-five miles, or fifty miles, in mountain service for a day's work as against 100 miles, or ten hours in the valley, (Beading) : "Electric Locomotives. Electric Either Multiple Unit or Single, Gasoline or Other Service. ''Wherever electric, multiple unit, gasoline or other service is installed as a substitute for steam, or is now in operation on any railroad parties to this agreement or on any of the tracks operated or controlled by any of them as part of their system, the Locomotive Engineers and Firemen shall have the right to the position of Motorman and Helper, respectively. The term 'helper' will be understood to mean the second man employed on electric locomotive or other power. "Seniority rights; rules, hours of service and mileage. ' ' Seniority rights to be interchangeable. Steam rules, hours of service and mileage to apply with the following rates of pay : Passenger Service. Motorman. Helper. 20,000 lbs. tractive power and less $4.50 $3.35 Over 20,000 lbs. tractive power and less than 25,000 lbs 4.60 3.35 Over 25,000 lbs. tractive power and less than 30,000 lbs 4.70 . 3.35 Over 30,000 lbs. tractive power and less than 35,000 lbs 4.80 3.35 Over 35,000 lbs. tractive power and less than 40,000 lbs 4.90 3.35 Over 40,000 lbs. tractive power and less than 45,000 lbs 5.00 3.35 Over 45,000 lbs. tractive power and less than 50,000 lbs 5.15 3.35 Over 50,000 lbs. tractive power and less than 55,000 lbs 5.35 3.35 Over 55,000 lbs. tractive power and less than 60,000 lbs 5.50 3.35 60,000 lbs. tractive power and over 5.60 3.35 All Other Service Except Passenger and Switching. Motorman. Helper. 20,000 lbs. tractive power and less $5.00 $3.75 Over 20,000 lbs. tractive power and less than 25,000 lbs 5.20 3.75 Over 25,000 lbs. tactive power and less than 30,000 lbs 5.30 3.75 Over 30,000 lbs. tractive power and less than 35,000 lbs 5.40 3.75 Over 35,000 lbs. tractive power and less than 40,000 lbs 5.60 3.75 Over 40,000 lbs. tractive power and less than 45,000 lbs 5.80 3.75 70 Motorinan. Helper. Over 45,000 lbs. tiacti\e power and less than 50,000 lbs 6.00 3.75 Over 50,000 lbs. tractive power aud less than 55,000 lbs 6.20 3.75 Over 55,000 lbs. tractive power and less than 60,000 lbs 6.40 3.75 Over 60,000 lbs. tractive power and less than 65,000 lbs 6.60 3.75 Over 65,000 lbs. tractive power and less than 70,000 lbs 6.80 3.75 70,000 lbs. tractive power and over 7.00 3.75 Sivitching Service. Motorman. Helper. 20,000 lbs. tractive power and less $4.75 $3.10 Over 20,000 lbs. tractive power and less than 40,U00 lbs 5.00 3.10 Over 40,000 lbs. tractive power and less than 60,000 lbs 5.50 3.10 60,000 lbs. tractive power and over 6.00 3.10 Mr. Stone : I simply call your attention to the fact that we ask that the seniority rights be interchanged. Steam rules, hours of service and mileage to apply. We have that at the present time, have we not, Mr. Cadle? Mr. Cadle : Yes. Mr. Stone: How is motor car service compensated for in tlie western territory? Mr. Cadle : There are 26 railroads in the western territory that have a fixed rate of pay in their agreements for this class of service. Mr. Stone: What are those roads that have this rate of pay for motor car service? I might add, if the Board will per- mit, that there are two classes of motor cars in the western territory, the gasoline motor car and the gasoline electric. They are both covered in this same article. There are also the mul- tiple unit electric trains that are used in the suburban service of the terminal at Oakland, San Francisco, and the electric motors, that are really electric locomotives, that are in use today on some of our roads liandlinir heavv trains through the tun- nels. Mr. Cadle: Those lines are Atchison, Topeka & Santa Fe, Coast Line, the Atchison, Topeka & Santa Fe, proper, the Chi- cago, Burlington & Quincy, the Chicago Great Western, the Chi- cago, Milwaukee & St. Paul, Puget Sound Lines, the Chicago & Milwaukee & St. Paul, proper. The Chicago & North Western, the Chicago, Kock Island & Pacific, the Chicago, St. Paul, Minne- apolis & Omaha, the Denevr, Laramie & North Western, the Denver & Rio Grande, the El Paso & Southeastern, the Ft. 71 Dodge, Des Moines Southern, Great Northern Railroad, Mis- souri, Oklahoma «& Gulf, New Orleans, Texas & Mexico, Northern Pacific, Northwestern Pacific, Oregon Short Line, San Pedro, Los Angeles & Salt Lake, St. Louis, Brownsville & Mexico, Southern Pacific System, St. Louis & San Francisco lines, Texas Pacific, Union Pacific, St. Louis & Southwestern Lines. That is all. That is 26 of them. Mr. Stone: Are there any roads in the western territory where the seniority is interchangeable between the steam and electric service! Mr. Cadle: All of the railroads that were parties to the concerted movement of 1910, as I understand it, were given a rule that when they install that service, when there is a sufficient number of engineers qualified to fill the positions, that they would be given that work, and their seniority would be inter- changeable. Mr. Stone: Speaking of these 26 roads in the west that have a fixed rate of pay, are there any other roads in the western territory? Mr. Cadle : About that fixed rate of pay — there are a good many of these railroads that have no motor car service, but they have a rule in their schedule that, if they install that serv- ice, it will be given to the locomotive engineer. Now, you take those schedules, a great number of them, and you will find that they have not got any fixed rate that they pay for the engineers. They have the rule in there that they will have, but the railroads where they have put the motor car service, or that service, in effect, have fixed a rate of pay for the engineer. Mr. Stone : In other words, they have recognized the right of the engineer to operate the service, and have agreed with the committee representing the engineers and firemen — represent- ing the engineers, for a rate of pay for the service? Mr. Cadle : Yes, sir. Mr. Stone : Can you give us some idea of the rate of pay that is in effect on some of the roads in the west, where they have this motor car service? Mr. Cadle: Yes, sir. Mr. Cadle: There are two railroads in the west that pay $3.90 for 100 miles or less. There is one railroad that pays $4.20 for one hundred miles or less. There is one railroad that 72 agrees to use locomotive engineers — really use locomotive engi- neers to operate any class of power that maj^ be used for — substituted for — steam power, and they agree to pay them the going rate, the same rate on locomotives. Mr. Stone: In other words, the engineer would get the same rate for running a motor car on that road as he would for a steam locomotive! Mr. Cadle: Yes, and under the same working rules and conditions. There are three railroads that pay $3.15 for 100 miles or less. There is one that pays $4.40 for ten miles or less. Mr. Stone: On those roads you just spoke of, what is the basis for a day's pay in computing overtime? Mr. Cadle : Ten hours, 100 miles or less, ten hours or less shall constitute a day's work. Mr. Stone : Well, when does the time for computing begin ? Mr. Cadle: One hour before leaving time on those six roads. One hour liefore the leaving time with their cars. Mr. Stone : You mean the schedule time of the train ! Mr. Cadle: Yes. Mr. Stone : All right. Mr. Cadle: Tliere is one railroad that pays $4.40 for ten hours or less. There is one railroad that pays $4.40, 44 cents an hour overtime ; an electric suburl)an service. The length of the dav varies. There are two railroads that jiay $4.40 for ten hours or less ; overtime 44 cents an hour, and compute their time one hour after the schedule of first trip to end. Mr. Stone: One hour after the schedule, or before? Mr. Cadle : One hour before the departure on their begin- ning of their day, and to end on the arrival at terminal on their final trip. There is one railroad that pays $4.20 a day for 100 miles or less, all previous schedules governing steam rates to apply on motor car service. There is one railroad that pays $4.15 for 100 miles or less for handling steam cars, and $4.00 per 100 miles or less for handling gasoline cars. There is one railroad that pays a motorman 33 cents an hour on passenger and 35 cents an hour on freight. Five cents 73 a mile acUlod to the schedules of above when in snow plow service, and $5 a month extra when they handle United States mail in those cars. There is one railroad that pays $4,40 per 100 miles or less to motormen in passenger service on gasoline cars. They pay $4.90, 100 miles or less, to motormen on electric cars and helpers, with 10 cents increase between given points. Mr. Stone: Do you mean 10 cents or 10 per cent? Mr, Cadle: 10 per cent, and on grades of 1,8 per cent or greater, that is that 10 per cent, with 10 per cent increase be- tween points on grades of 1.8 per cent or greater, the rules reg- ulating steam rates shall apply. There is one road that pays a monthly rate of $130, seniority interchangeable between steam and motor cars. There is one road that pays $137.15 for a cal- endar month. For a mileage in excess of 5,000 miles a month, they will draw 2,74 cents per mile. They are allowed $2.50 per day of 10 hours and 30 minutes to qualify for these cars. Mr. Stone : Pardon me, Mr. Cadle. I think you are getting confused on that. If I maj^ be allowed to correct him- — I don't want to transgress any of the rules, I do not want to do anything that isn't correct and, yet, I realize that a man dealing with this many schedules is liable to be mixed up a little bit on them. The Chairman: You may make any suggestions that are calculated to correct it. Mr. Stone: He said they are allowed $2.50 per day to qualify for these cars. That is not exactly correct. He is al- lowed $2.50 per day of 10 hours for 30 days for learning the service. Mr, Cadle: That is it, he goes into the shop to learn to handle one of these motor cars and he is paid $2,50 a day for thirty days to qualify to fill one of those positions. He gains his knowledge right in the shop where they build the cars. There is one railroad that pays $132.50 for a calendar month. There is one railroad that pays 46 cents an hour for a nine hour day in handling electric cars, and the seniority is interchange- able. Mr. Stone: Do you know what the men who handle the electric locomotives are allowed to do, whether their work is interchangeable with steam, whether the seniority is inter- changeable or not? 74 Mr. Cadle: In what territory? Mr. Stone: On the Great Northern. I think that is the only road in the northwest where there are electric locomotives at the present time. Mr. Cadle: Yes, sir, that is my opinion. I think the senior- ity is interchangeable. Mr. Stone (reading) : "Article III. Local or Way Freight Service. Local trains are way freight or mixed trains whose work is the loading or unloading of freight or doing station switching enroute." I imagine, Mr. Chairman, the other side will disagree with us as to the definition of what constitutes a local freight. The point I want to bring out by this witness is that we do liave a local freight rate in the western territory. The only question is the difference as to what constitutes a local train. The article I read part of has an additional paragraph (reading) : "Engineers and Firemen on such trains will be paid ten per cent increase over through freight rates." That is our re- quest. (Addressing the witness) : Do you know of any roads in the western territory, Mr. Cadle, that pay an extra rate for local service ? Mr. Cadle: There are a great many railroads that pay a differential of 25 cents, 100 miles, in local service. Mr. Stone : Will you give the names of them ? Have you the names of them? We will pass that, at this time: it is evi- dently a mistake and was left out of the check we have. I know there are a number of roads in the western territory that ]iay an increased rate in local freight service. Mr. Cadle: The western concerted movement, in 1910, awarded us 25 cents differential on all these roads that were parties to that agreement in the western territory. Now, there are railroads where they pay the 10 per cent. I think the Nortli - ern Pacific Kailroad pays the 10 per cent .additional for their local service. Mr. Stone: What was the award in the eastern territory, do you know? Mr. Cadle : They paid the 25 cents differential in the east- ern territory. Yes, sir, they awarded you 25 cents differential, 100 miles or less, in the eastern territorv. 7 • *^ 75 Mr. Stone: AVliat do they do in the southeastern territory, do you recall f Mr. Cadle: In the southeastern territory, the majority of tlie roads have a local rate, the majority of them pay $5.75, 100 miles or less, 10 hours or less, Mr. Stone : What is the prevailing practice for local freight service in the southeastern territory? Mr. Cadle : It ranges from $5.75 to $6 a day. You take the Mallets, they pay $60.0 and $6.10, and the principal rate for local freight service in the southeastern territory is $5.75 a day, for ten hours or less. Mr. Stone : As against the same class of engine in through freight service, or what? Could you give an estimate of that? Mr. Cadle : $5.15 and $5.40. Mr. Stone : Are you familiar with the definitions in the western territory? I realize you haven't the notes to refer to. Are you familiar with the conditions as to what comprise way freight service on the different roads ? Mr. Cadle: The class of service, do you mean? Mr. Stone : No, the definition of what constitutes a wav freight or a local freight train. Are there any roads that have a rule defining what is a local freight train? Mr. Cadle : Well, there are railroads that have different rules. The train that does the switching, all the station switch- ing en route, between terminals, handles package stuff, unloads and loads w^ay freight. Mr. Stone: At how many points would they have to load or unload way freight, in order to be a local freight train? Mr. Cadle : Through freight, do you mean ? Mr. Stone : Any regular train, in order to be classed as a local train? Mr. Cadle : There are some of the schedules in the south- east that provide that, where a man unloads way freight at two or three stations, it shall be classed as a local freight train. Mr. Stone : Are there any roads in the west that have such a rule? Mr. Cadle: Not that I know of. Yes, there are some schedules that have a rule that classifies the number of stations. Mr. Stone (Reading) : ''Additional pay. Through or ir- regular freight trains doing work such as loading or unloading 76 freight, stock or company material, switching at stations, spurs, mines, mills, or required to pick up or set out cars, unless cars to be set out are switched together at terminals, or doing any other similar work, shall be paid for same at overtime rates in addition to time or mileage made on the trip." Now, in the irregular freight service in the west, Mr. Cadle, are there any roads where this work mentioned here is paid for ? Mr. Cadle: Yes, sir, there are some of the railroads that pay for it. Mr. Stone : Have you a list of the roads ? Mr. Cadle: I don't think so. Mr. Stone: Is it not a common practice on many of our western roads to pay for the loading or unloading of stock, in addition to the irregular trip? Mr. Cadle Mr. Stone Mr. Cadle Mr. Stone Yes, sir. Or for the icing of refrigerators? Yes, sir. Is it not also a fact that, on many of the roads, they pay for doing what is known as commercial switching, out- side of the working of the trains at the various points enroute ? Mr. Cadle: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: Or, for the loading or unloading of company material ? Mr. Cadle: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: Are there any roads in the west that pay for picking up or setting out cars, when they are not switched together ? Mr. Cadle: I don't just remember. Mr. Stone: You don't recall any? Mr. Cadle : No, sir. There are in the east. Mr. Stone : Is it not a fact on many roads you are required to switch the train in station order and bring it into the terminal switched in station order, on freight trains? Mr. Cadle: There are railroads that required crews to do that, when their yards were congested, I understood. Mr. Stone (Beading) : "Article IV. Switching Service, Rates of Pay. Engineers. Firemen. Engines weighing le?s than 140,000 lbs. on drivers $4.75 $3.10 Engines weighing 140,000 lbs. and over on drivers 5.00 3.25 Mallet type engines 6.00 4.00 77 Engineers and firemen required to begin service other than be- tween the hours of 6 A. M. and 8 A. M. will be paid 2 cents per hour, in addition to above rate." Do you know of any roads in the western country where they are using the Mallet type of engine in switching service ! Mr. Cadle : Yes, sir. Mr. Nagel: Before you turn to that, do you propose to give us a rule for our adoption by which it is to be determined whether a through freight has been converted into a local freight, in a particular case! I get no impression from this so far, at all. Mr. Stone : I realize that, because, in checking up, for some unknown cause, there is nothing about local freights in the notes. Mr. Nagel: You have told us you do not agree, but you have not told us how we are to reconcile the disagreement? Mr. Stone : I think we can submit something a little later that perhaps will bring out our side of it, at least. I am sure the other side will present something that will prove to you that there is no such thing as a local freight in the western country. Mr. Nagel: Then we can expect that hereafter. Mr. Stone: Yes, sir; we will try to prepare it for you. (Addressing the witness.) Do you know of any class of yard service that receives an additional rate for night work or where they are not in the day service? Mr. Cadle : No, sir. Mr. Stone : That is, engineers and firemen do not ? Mr. Cadle: No, sir. Mr. Stone : Is it not a fact that all the switch foremen and switchmen receive higher rates for yard service at night? Mr. Cadle : I think so. Their schedules make a differential at night. Mr. Stone (Reading) : ''Ten hours or less will constitute a day's work in switching service. Time to be computed contin- uousl}^, all over ten hours to be computed and paid for at the rate of time and one-half. All overtime to be computed on minute basis." In what way does that differ from our present rule, what is generally known as the standard rule! It is continuous service, is it not? That is the only difference from the present rule? Mr. Cadle: That is all. 78 Mr. Stone: It might be well to explain to tlie Board what is meant by continuous service. Mr. Cadle: If a man starts to work at 7 o'clock in tlie morning and works until 6 o'clock in tlie evening, that would be continuous, without any break. Mr. Stone: The present practice on most of these roads, is it not, is to deduct the dinner hour? Mr. Cadle: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: In other words, a man is really on duty 11 hours and is paid for 10; one hour is deducted for meals. Mr. Cadle: Well, a man is always — a man in switching service, where he is paid for the dinner hour, he does give the company 30 minutes, on a great many schedules. The company is willing to give him 11 hours pay, where he works a portion of the dinner hour; some of them as much as 30 minutes and some of them less. Mr. Stone: That is, if he works any part of the dinner hour? Mr. Cadle : Yes. But if he does not work that, of course he starts to work at 7 o'clock in the morning and quits at 6 o'clock in the evening and is gi^en his dinner h.our out, and he gets ten hours pay for it. Mr. Stone: Is it not a fact that men are often released for the dinner hour at some outlying point where they are practi- cally comiielled to watch their engine? ]\Ir. Cadle: Well, the men are given their dinner hour nf outside ])oints and some companies have established the practice of relieving men out on the side ti-acks ; that is, blocking tiieir engines and releasing them during the dinner hour. Mr. Stone : But, the man is away from the shop and he is awav from his meals, is he not? He is awav from his home? He cannot possibly get a warm meal? Mr. Cadle: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: A\"hat is meant by the overtime being com- puted and paid for at the rate of time and one-half, the same explanation as you made for the freight service? Mr. Cadle : Yes, sir, it means time and a half for overtime. Mr. Stone (Reading) : "All overtime to be computed on a minute basis." The same explanation for that as you made for the road service? 79 Mr. Cadle: There are a great many railroads now in the western eonntry that pay the overtime rate on a minute basis? Mr. Stone : In switching- service ? Mr. Cadle : Yes, sir. It is a rule that has been in effect on some of the railroads for eight or nine or ten years. Mr. Stone: (Reading.) "Meals. Switch engineers and iiremen will not be required to work longer than six consecutive hours without being allowed 30 minutes undisturbed for meals." Why is that put in this article, Mr. Cadle? Mr. Cadle : Why, it is put in there? There are several rea- sons. In the first place, six hours is long enough for a man to work without eating. There are some of the railroads that will work a man seven hours, or seven hours and a half. They work them past the meal hours. A great many of our yard engineers that are not married board by the month or board by the week and, if you work a man until 2 o 'clock in the afternoon, why, at the boarding house the meals are closed and you put him to the additional expense of going into some restaurant and getting his meals and, then, another thing, men starting out to work at 7 o'clock in the morning, where you call them an hour and a half before leaving time, and they are required to report at certain times, they will get up at 5 o'clock in the morning and get their breakfast and, if you work them seven or eight hours, the men are not in very good shape to do any work ; they want something to eat ; and, there has been a great deal of difficulty all around the country, not so much in the last few years as there was pre- viously, but there have been switch engineers who have worked until 4 o'clock in the afternoon, or 3 o'clock in the afternoon without meals, and of course they complained of it and it be- came necessary for their organizations to make agreements with the railroads, asking them to release them within a reasonable number of hours, so that they might get their meals. Now the railroads have done very well toward them. In very nearly all of the schedules that we have with railroads, they have been very liberal. A good many of our railroads that I have dealt with'the managers of, that I have dealt with on the dinner hour question, they were just as anxious to get those men off at a regular hour for their meals, because they believed they would be better men, do better work for the com])any, if they would have their meals. Those are the reasons why we asked to have that rule made 80 eifective, so that the men can be released for meals and have an opportunity to go and get their means at the meal hours. Mr. Stone: (Reading.) "Road Engine, used. When road engines are used in yard service, road rates will apply," "What was the idea in putting that in the request? Mr. Cadle : I don 't know. I have handled a road engine in switching in the yard and I had rather have a switch engine. In the iirst place, a road engine is very unhandy to handle, a great many of them. AVhen I was running switch engines, they had high tanks, it was hard to see out over them and that in- creased your responsibility. That is, I have known a great many men to get into trouble handling road engines, switching in a yard. The arrangements on the inside of the cab are not as con- venient on a road engine as on a switch engine, because when you have got a regular switch engine, they make it as convenient as possible, so you can handle that engine and get the signals. With a road engine, some of them, thej^ are not so convenient for doing switching service. Consequently the railroads have al- ways been willing to pay a differential when they did, and a great many of them have got that, they pay a differential when they use road engines. Mr. Stone: You find it quite common in the southeastern territory, do you not, that they pay differential where they use the road engines'? Mr. Cadle : Yes, sir. In the eastern territorv thev awarded 7 •I US that 25 cents differential. Mr. Stone: Isn't it a fact that the principal objection is because the boiler is so large and the cab so narrow there is no room for reversing, without walking the length of the cab every time you have to reverse the engine ? Mr. Cadle: They are not arranged conveniently on the in- side to do switching. Some years ago they had a pilot on the front, but now the government, I believe, has fixed it up so that they have got to put steps on them. That objection of course is eliminated to a certain degree. Mr. Stone: I only wish it was possible for the members of the Board who are not perhaps as familiar with the different types of engines as some of the rest of us are, to see the ar- rangement in the cabs of some of these road engines, and some of the yard engines. Especially is that true of the larger en- 81 gines that have the screw reverse lever, instead of the old style lever and, then, imagine, if you can, a man out in a yard trying to switch with one of the big, modern type of locomotives with the screw reverse, where it takes 16 or 17 turns of the wheel to reverse the engine. (Reading) : Article V. Preparatory Time. "Engineers and firemen in all classes of service will be al- lowed thirty minutes as preparatory time in addition to all other time or mileage made on the trip or day, at the pro rata rate corresponding with class of locomotive and service; provided, that on lines of railroad where rules or schedules require them to be on duty more than thirtj^^ minutes before time ordered to leave roundhouse or other point, they will be allowed one hour's time, and when required to be on duty more than one hour, actual time will be allowed. Preparatory time will be the time en- gineers and firemen are required to be on their locomotives, prior to time ordered to leave roundhouse or other point. ' ' Explain to the Board what is meant by preparatory time? Mr. Cadle: It is time consumed in preparing the engine for the trip. If you take a great number of these railroads, the engineer's time begins when he leaves the trainyard. A great many of the schedules provide that. Now, then, he has to have his engine prepared, ready for the trip, before he leaves the trainyard, and it is time consumed preparing the engine before he departs from his trainyard. Mr. Stone: Explain to the Board what is the nature of preparatory work, how a man gets ready for the trip, what he is called for, the time? Mr. Cadle: There are a great many of the railroads where you have to go to work and report on duty, to register, or report on duty. There are a great number of them that require you to register your watch and you have to go to work and look at the report book and see what work has been done on the engine before you go out. You go to work and oil your engine around. You have to fill your lubricator; you have to see to your head- light. In case you are carrying signals, you have got to see that they are proper. You have got to go to work, according to the company's rules, and see that you have got tools on your engine. There are a whole lot of things you have to do before you go down to go out, and that is called preparatory time. 82 The Chairman: How much time is usually consumed in that kind of work? Mr. Cadlo: It depends alto^i>:ether on the class of engines that you are ]>r('parini?, Mr. Chairman. On a small engine where the company tills the grease cups and rod cups for you, and does a great deal of that work in the shop, why, you can prepare them in oh, say, 35 minutes, while, with other engines, you take the large type of engines, it may take you longer than that. If you have to fill the grease cups on those engines, I think the very best you could do, to fill the grease cups alone, without do- ing anything else, would be half an hour. On a good many sys- tems the companies have released the engineer from filling these grease cups. Mr. Stone: Is it not a fact you have to compare your watch, check over the bulletin book and sign for all bulletins issued up to date, get a time slip from the roundhouse foreman and all that? 'Mv. Cadle: In the eastern territory they use a time slip, but not so much in the western territory. They do not practice that \('ry much in the west, but they have to compare their watches and they have to register their time in a great many of the railroads. Mr. Stone : What about the bulletins ? ]\Ir. Cadle: Well, you have got to examine the bulletins. According to the book of rules you are supposed to examine the bulletins. Mr. Stone: Is it not a fact you must have your engine ready to move with all of this clone at a certain time before you are rcMpiired to leave the vard? Mr. Cadle: I think the book of rules requires you to be ready for business thirty minutes before leaving time. I think that is their book of rules. Mr. Stone: On the majority of the roads? Mr. Cadle : Yes, a great many of them. Mr. Stone: There are some places, are there not, where they have outlying yards, they re(]uire longer time than that, the men are required to report earlier than that? Mr. Cadle: Yes. Mr. Stone: Can you recall any of those roads or rules? Mr. Cadle : I think the Canadian Northern and the Canad- 83 ian Pacific both require men to be on duty ready to move 45 minutes before tlie fixed leaving time of the train. Mr. Stone: That is, have everything ready to move? Mr. Cadle: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: So, you can go up in the yard and get your train ready, test the air — is that the idea, so you will be ready to move on the time called to leave ? Mr. Cadle : I don 't know Avhether they require them to be on their train ; I know according to their agreement they require them to be ready to move thirty minutes before, I don't know where they move from, but I presume it is the point where they prepare their engines for the trip. Mr. Stone: Then, all this preparatory time is time that the crews are required to be on the locomotive prior to the time of leaving the roundhouse or other designated points! Mr. Cadle: Yes, sir. I think that is what we are asking pay for. Mr. Stone (Reading): "Article VI. Terminal Delay. Passenger Service. "Initial terminal delay for engineers and firemen in pas- senger service shall begin at the time they are called to leave roundhouse or other point and shall end upon departure of trains from passenger depot." Explain what that means, Mr. Cadle — initial terminal delay? Mr. Cadle: I have been called to leave at 6 o'clock in the morning myself when I did not get out until 9. That is what I call terminal delay. I was called to leave at 6 and I departed at 9 o'clock and I have done a good deal of terminal delay mvself. Mr. Stone : In other words, you were on your engine and had it ready to go before 6 o'clock. Mr. Cadle: The company would call me one hour before they wanted me ; come to my room and call me one hour before the leaving time of the train. Now, if they had called me at 6 o'clock my time Avould begin at 7 o'clock, and with terminal delay I might not get out until 8 o'clock or 9 o'clock. Mr, Stone: What causes this terminal delay? Mr. Cadle : Oh, various things. There are lots of different things that can cause terminal delay; just a whole lot of things 84 that cause it. Some years ago, when the railroad companies did not pay I'or it and the caller happened to be up at Cadle's say an hour or two before leaving time, he would call Cadle and I would get down on the engine with my boots on and wait until they got ready for me. After they commenced paying me for it, tlien they checked it u]). They did away with a whole lot of it. "We got our rest in bed instead of on the engine. I think we were better cquii)]ied to go out and do a day's work for the com]iany. Mr. Stone: It is really a fact that this initial terminal de- lay clause, for both freight and passenger, is a penalty time to prevent the abuse of the menf Mr. Cadle : Yes, sir, and it has been a great benefit to the company and to the engineers both, to all classes of trainmen. I can recall cases where we laid three and four hours trying to get into the yards after we arrived at the terminal point. I know that the men complained a great deal, that is, the engine crews complained a great deal in regard to being held on duty, and the company gave us a rule that they would pay lis for that time, and I know they cut it down to a very, very small minimum. Well, the company was benefitted, because they had the use of their power. I do not understand you can earn any money on a rail- road with a lot of trains standing still on the main track, and your crews could not get any rest out there, so that is the reason that I say that both were benefitted by that, when they allowed terminal delay. The officers in charge would check that up in the morning, if they found out a train was held out four or five hours, they would make some inquiry into it to find out what was the cause of it, ask the men to make statements, and after a while they cut it down so that there was a very small amount of it allowed. 1 think when we first comnionced getting pay in this particular case there were perhaps 600 hours allowed the first month, and they cut it down to a very low minimum. Mr. Stone : ( Heading) ' * Final terminal delay for Engineers and Firemen in ])assenger service shall begin at the time they arrive at passenger depot, and will end when relieved from duty." Why do we ask that? Mr. Cadle : Why, in order to get relieved. Mr. Stone: Explain what the abuse is that calls for this rule; why the men ask it. AVhy they are delayed. What delays a passenger train after it arrives at its terminal? That is after you have left the terminal depot, ain put away? After we have arrived. Do you not often have delay in the depot ? Well, in passenger trains, of course — That is what we are talking of now, passenger 85 Mr. Cadle: There are lots of times you have to pull into a train yard, and I have seen cases and know of cases where they would have a switch engine that might have a cut of cars out there, and they would switch that cut of cars before they would let you in, and they would keep the main track blocked on you, so that you could not get into the train yard, and after you got into the train yards you could not get into the roundhouse. You could not get a track where you would be released from your en- gine on account of being blocked at the other end, Mr. Stone getting your tr; Mr. Cadle; Mr. Stone; Mr. Cadle; Mr. Stone: service. Mr. Cadle: Yes, sir. They have been delayed in the sta- tion getting out, getting rid of the cares of their engines. Mr. Stone : Well, is it not a fact they are often held to un- load two or three cars of mail or express? Mr. Cadle: Yes. Mr. Stone: Is it not a fact that you are often held in these large terminals with head in tracks to wait for switch engines to take the trains ofil Mr. Cadle: Yes. Mr. Stone: It is nothing unusual to be delayed 30 to 40 minutes from the time they arrive at the depot till they are re- leased from duty, is it? Mr. Cadle: Well, there are such delays, but the company takes very good care of them w^hen they have to pay for it. Mr. Stone: "Final terminal delay in passenger service." How many roads are there that pay that in the western terri- tory? I think this all applies to freight, Mr. Cadle. I do not think you have worked up anything for the passenger service? Mr. Cadle: No, sir. Mr. Stone: All right, passing on to freight service. (Read- ing.) '* Initial terminal delay in freight service shall begin at the time Engineer and Fireman is called to leave roundhouse or other point, and shall end when train has passed from yard track or lead to main line, and after it departs from the ter- minal. " 86 Your explanation for the initial terminal delay for freight service is largely the same as for passenger service, is it not? Mr. Cadle: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: It is time in getting ready from the time you are called until the time you leave? Mr. Cadle: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: AVherever the initial terminal delay has been paid for, has there been any improvement in regard to getting men out of terminals? Mr. Cadle: They have taken the unusual delays where there don't appear to be much excuse for it, and they have bettered those conditions considerably. Mr. Stone: In your final terminal delay in freight service. (Reading.) ''Final terminal delay in freight service shall be- gin when train arrives at switch leading from main line into yard, and shall end when Engineer and Fireman are relieved from duty; provided, that if from any cause trains are held out of yard, final terminal delay shall begin." Are there any roads in the western territory that pay final terminal delay if the engineer is held on duty, pay final terminal delay if delayed fifteen minutes or more after arrival at the terminal? Mr. Cadle: Yes, sir, there are eight such roads. Mr. Stone: Will you give the names of those roads? Mr. Cadle: The Chicago Great Western, Colorado & South- em, Fort Worth & Denver City, Great Northern Eailroad, Mar- shall & East Texas, San Antonio & Aransas Pass, Southern Pacific, Pacific Lines, Wichita Valley. Mr. Stone: Are there any roads in the western territory that pay final terminal delay if the engineer is held on duty thirty minutes or more? Mr. Cadle: Yes, sir, there are 27 of those railroads. Mr. Stone: Will you give the names, please? Mr. Cadle: They are the A., T. & S. F., coast lines, the A., T. & S. F., proper, the Canadian Pacific, western lines, the Chi- cago, Peoria & St. Louis, the Chicago, Rock Island & Pacific Lines, the Fort Smith & Western, the Southern Pacific, Atlantic Svstem, the Grand Trunk Pacific. Mr. Stone: Speaking of the Grand Trunk Pacific, you mean the lines west of Fort William, do you not? 87 Mr. Cadle : Yes, sir ; tlie Gulf, Colorado & Santa Fe, Hous- ton & Texas Central, Houston East and West Texas, Inter- national & Great Northern, Midland Valley, Minneapolis & St. Louis, Minneapolis, St. Paul & Sault Ste. Marie, Missouri, Okla- homa & Gulf, Missouri Pacific, Iron Mountain, Missouri, Kansas & Texas Lines, North Western Pacific, Oregon & Washington Railroad & Navigation Company, San Pedro, Los Angeles & Salt Lake, St. Louis, Brownsville & Mexico, St. Louis & San Francisco Lines, St. Louis & Southwestern System, Texas & Pacific, Trinity & Brazos Valley. Mr. Stone: Are there any railroads in the western terri- tory that do not pay final terminal delay unless the engineer is held on duty an hour or more? Mr. Cadle : There are eight such roads. Mr. Stone: Give the names, please? Mr. Cadle : The Chicago & North Western, C, M. & St. P., Puget Sound Lines, C, B. & Q., El Paso & Southwestern, North- ern Pacific, Union Pacific, Wabash Lines west of Detroit, West- ern Pacific. Mr. Stone: Are there any roads that make an arbitrary allowance at the end of each trip, I mean? Mr. Stone : "What road is it 1 Mr. Cadle: In the western territory? Mr. Stone : Yes, in the western territorv. Mr. Cadle: The Canadian Pacific makes an arbitrary al- lowance of 45 minutes for final terminal delay. Mr. Trenholm: The Canadian Northern. Mr. Cadle : And the Canadian Northern. Mr. Stone: I have a record of only one — the Canadian Pacific, lines west. Mr. Cadle : The Canadian Northern. Mr. Stone : AVhat railroads in southeastern territory allow for terminal delay, if delayed thirty minutes or more ? Mr. Cadle : There are ninteen railroads in the southeastern territory. Mr. Stone : Give the names of them, please ? Mr. Cadle : The Alabama & Great Southern, the Alabama & Vicksburg, the Atlanta, Birmingham & Atlantic, the Atlanta West Point, the Carolina, Clinchfield & Ohio, the Charleston & West Carolina, the Chesapeake & Ohio, the Cincinnati, New 88 Orleans & Texas, the Lexington Eastern, the Louisville, Hen- derson & St. Louis, the Louisville & Nashville, the Mobile & Ohio, the New Orleans & Great Northern, the New Orleans, Mo])ile & Chicago, the New Orleans & Northeastern, the Southern Rail- road Lines, the Tennessee Central, the Vicksburg, Shreveport & Pacific, and the Virginian. Mr. Stone: Are there any roads in the southeastern ter- ritory that pay a final terminal delay, if delayed one full hour? Mr. Cadle: Yes, there are three roads. Mr. Stone : Please give the names. ^fr. Cadle : The Atlantic Coast Line, the Georgia Southern and Florida, and the Seaboard Air Line. Mr. Stone : Are there any roads in the Western territory that pay final terminal delay on the miimte basis, that is, I mean cumulative? Mr. Cadle : Yes, there is one railroad that makes an arbi- trary. Mr. Stone: There are more than that. Mr. Cadle: Ask your question. Mr. Stone: What railroads in the Western territory pay a final terminal delav on the minute basis, one mile for each six minutes! Mr. Cadle: There are four such roads. Mr. Stone : Will you please give the names 1 Mr. Cadle : The Kansas City, Mexico & Orient, the Kansas City Southern, the Oregon Short Line, and the Spokane, Port- land & Seattle. Mr. Stone (Reading): "Minute basis. Engineers and Firemen shall be paid on a minute basis for all terminal delay; at the pro rata rate for the class of engine used ; this in addition to all time or mileage made on the trip." That has been explained two or three times, so I think it is hardly necessary again to show how the overtime is built up on the cumulative plan. (Reading): ** Article VII. Automatic Release and Tie-up. ** Engineers and Firemen arriving at terminal or end of run are automatically released; when used again, they begin a new day." I think it is fair to state for our side, Mr. Chairman, that, several months ago, during the negotiations, we explained to 89 the Managers' Association that it was not the intent to have Article VII apply to suburban service. That is a matter of record. Mr. Sheean : I assume, then, that this request in its modi- fied form ought to be submitted at this time, so that we may analyze the modification. As drafted, of course, it does cover, all classes of service. Whatever exception you propose to make should, I suppose, be made a part of the modified request at this time, so that we may consider the language of the modifica- tion, to ascertain whether it is sufficient. Mr. Stone: Tlie exception was brought out by a letter from the Association of Western Railways, over the signature of Mr. Trenholm and we notified him, in reply, over the signa- tures of Mr. Carter and myself, that Article VII, automatic release, did not apply to suburban service ; that that was not our intent. That is all a matter of record, which I shall be very glad to produce. Mr. Sheean : Mr. Stone, vou misunderstand me. I did not intend to question at all that that was the statement in the correspondence here; but, the request as made has no such modification; and, if it was to be covered now simply by an explanatory note accompanying the request, then we should have that note in whatever form you desire to put it, as to whether the modification is to be made on a series of short runs or short turn-arounds, just limiting what exceptions there are to be to the general language of the rule. Mr. Stone: We will do that by tomorrow morning, Mr. Chairman, so as to make it a matter of record. It is already a matter of record. We will simply reproduce the original record saying that it does not apply to suburban service, that that was not our intent. The Chairman : And, that your request in the first instance is modified to that extent. Mr. Stone : Yes. Mr. Cadle, what is meant by the para- graph: (Reading.) '* Engineers and Firemen arriving at terminal or end of run are automatically released"? What do we mean by that ? Mr. Cadle: That means you are done with your day's work. 90 Mr. Stone : And if there is any further service, that another crew sliall be called? Mr. Cadle : Yes. Mr. Stone : In other words, you do not w^ant a crew that arrives at a terminal, to run around some other crew in the same * class of service, or run out again in the same line of service? Mr. Cadle: We have agreements with nearly all of these roads that crews shall run, first in, first out, at terminal points. Mr. Stone : Take a man running first in, first out, who ar- rives at a terminal, when he comes in and goes out of the ter- minal, where he would expect that under the first in first out rule he would be done with his day's work Mr. Byram : AVould it apply whether there were any other crews at that place or not ? Mr. Cadle : The first man out on the board would be called. Mr. Byram : Suppose there were no other man there ! Mr. Cadle : Then he would have to go, if the company could use him. Mr. Byram: For continuous service? Mr. Cadle: Yes. Mr. Stone: You do not mean it that way, do you? Would not a new day begin Avhen he was called again? Mr. Cadle : He did not ask me that. He asked me, if they could use him. Mr. Stone: He asked you if they could use him for con- tinuous service. Mr. Cadle: No, sir. Mr. Byram : You would have to pay him for another day, whether there were any other crews or not? Mr. Cadle: Yes. Mr. Byram : Or two days or three days, as many times as he had occasion to go out? Mr. Cadle: Well, yes, if he could make two or three days.- Mr. Stone: Under the present system of handling these heavy trains it is not at all likely he would make three days, would he? Mr. Cadle : No. A man is very fortunate if he can make one. Mr. Park: What do I understand by "automatic"? Does that do away with the formalities of registering at the round- i>*» m.~^ "^^^ .T^^^^^KI^^^^^^^f ^ A 91 house? I do not quite get the word ''automatic". It is new to me. He certainly cannot be released until some authority per- mits him to leave the service. Does this automatic release relieve the official in charge of the duty of relieving him? Mr. Cadle : No, sir, it does not interfere with his register- ing in, and doing all the things that the company's rules require him to do when he gets done with his day's work. Mr. Stone: Is it or not the fact that after a man arrives on the designated track where he leaves his train, he would be released from his continuous day's work? That is the intent of the article, is it not? Mr. Cadle : Yes. The company will designate a track where they want him to go, to release him, or at the roundhouse, either one. Mr. Stone: Suppose the callboy swings on to the engine as he comes into the yard and says, "You are not released." Would this rule release him anyway, and a new day begin? Mr. Cadle : Yes, it would, the way the rule is formulated. Mr. Park: Suppose there was a wreck, and we needed him right away, and the callboy went down and told him, do we understand that, notwithstanding the fact that the callboy called him, he would have authoritj^ to go home and ignore the callboy, and that he was automatically released? Mr. Cadle : In case of a wreck? Mr. Park: That he was automatically released from duty at that time ? That he would have the privilege of going home, notwithstanding he was notified that he would be immediately needed and continued in the service? Mr. Cadle: I or a wreck? Mr. Park: It might be a wreck, or it might be for any other purpose. I am afraid of that word "automatic." I do not see how he can be automatically released, when he gets in, and be allowed to go home without any formality, regardless of any authority that might keep him on duty. Mr. Cadle: From my experience in being around with en- gineers, and working with them, and working at the profession myself, I have never seen an engineer yet who, when an officer of a railroad came out, or sent the callboy and told him there was a wreck on the road, whether he was automatically released or anything of that kind, would go away. He would go on because 92 there was a case of emergency that required immediate action. We want our men to act and to act promptly, but under this rule a man's new day would begin. Mr. Park: Then the word ''automatic" was intended to separate that trip from the one succeeding it? Mr. Cadle: Yes. Mr. Park: And that is the meaning of the word "auto- matic" as applied here? Mr. Cadle: Yes. Mr. Park: I just wanted to get that into -my head, be- cause that word "automatic" is a new word in railroading. Mr. Cadle: It is new. Mr. Stone: I think, Mr. Chairman, that they are making the mistake of dividing up the sentence. It reads as plainly as we knew how to put the English language. Of course, I realize that we railroad men sometimes think we are talking the English language, when we are talking a language that nobodj^ else un- derstands at all. It reads very plainlj^: ' ' Engineers and Firemen arriving at terminal or end of run are automatically released; when used again they begin a new day." It is the definite intention that the one run is ended, and, when the man is used again, a new day begins. It is to draw a line of demarcation between the two, and that is why it is used in that way, to settle forever the question as to whether the man is released when he arrives, which has been one of the mooted questions we have had up for the last fifteen or twenty years., and it is still unsettled in some parts of the country. Mr. Burgess: May I ask a question there? The Chairman: Yes. Mr. Burgess: Mr. Stone, do you know of any railroad that has the practice of telling the engineer that he is through when he arrives on his run? Mr. Stone: No, I do not. I know some railroads where they will tell him, "Now, don't go away. We are liable to want to use you pretty soon. Eemain on duty." Mr. Burgess: But the question is, is it not a fact that en- gineers arriving at a terminal are automatically released ac- cording to railroad practice at the present time, unless they are notified that they are wanted for another run? ^f^'*'«VA >' > If^ f ». " "^ WI ' \^ * m * ^ < P f J 4 > k Ws. *9 . . ■ . % , ^ -4i^\i- v^ 93 Mr. Stone: That is true. On many of the agreements you will find an article that says they arrive at their terminal at a certain designated track or switch in the yard. Mr. Burgess: Taking the ordinary and normal practice, when an engineer arrives at a terminal and registers on the book provided for that purpose, and examines his engine and reports his work, is it not a fact that he. goes right home? Nobody goes and tells him he is through with his work, that you know of, do you? Mr. Cadle: No, sir, I do not. Mr. Burgess: We want to clear up the ''automatic" feature. Mr. Park: That is as I understood it, and I could not see the use of the word ' ' automatic ' ' in here. I agree w4th Mr. Burgess in his understanding that he is released from duty when he registers in and goes through certain formalities, so that I do not understand what the word "automatic" means. Mr. Stone : We think the word is very vital and necessary to have in there. Mr. Park: I think I can see far enough to see what it is intended to do. It is to separate the trips distinctly. If a man goes into the terminal, after he has been on-duty one hour, he is off duty, and, if he goes out another hour, in another district, he has two days. Mr. Nagel: That is to fix his rights with respect to that run. When he is called on again it would constitute a separate day. Mr. Park : Yes. I can see a picture of a man getting four days in four hours. Mr. Stone : I also have another picture that I might inject, which is that, after a man has been on duty fifteen hours, and there is something out here six or seven miles that they want to drag in, if they don't use this man they will have to call a new crew and pay them for a day, and so they will use the man ^vlio has been on duty fifteen hours to go out and drag in this train. The Chairman: Proceed. Mr. Stone: (Reading.) '' Continuous time. Engineers and Firemen tied up between their terminals will be paid continuous time, no deductions will be made for time tied up. ' ' 94 Are there any roads in this western country where we have continuous time? Mr. Cadlo : I do not know. Mr. Stone: AVliat is the idea of tlie rule? Why is it in- to?jdcd that men shall not be released between terminals? Mr. Cadle : AVell, the men have got no place to stay. They lie on their engines as a general thing. They have nowhere to go, to get to bed and get a rest, and when their eight hours are up under the Federal Law, or ten hours, as the case may be, they want to be paid continuous time for the time while they were lying out on the road. They w^ant to get in off the road. Mr. Stone : There are a number of rules in effect, now are there not, that men shall not be released between terminals ex- cept when tied up under the Federal Law ? Mr. Cadle: Yes. Mr. Stone: (Reading.) "Article VIII. Held away from home terminals. Engineers and Firemen held at other than home terminal (including rest period) will be paid continuous time for all time so held, after the expiration of 15 hours from time relieved from previous duty, of the rate per hour paid for the last service performed; less than one hour not to be paid for." Are there any roads in the western country that pay for held away from home terminal? Mr. Cadle : Yes. Mr. Stone: Have you a list of them there? Mr. Cadle: Yes. Mr. Stone: Will you please give them? Mr. Cadle : There is one railroad that pays engineers when held away from home terminal after eighteen hours. Mr. Stone: What road is that? Mr. Cadle: That is the Canadian Northern. I\fr. Stone: Oo ahead. Mr. Cadle: There is one railroad that pays after being held away from home terminal twelve hours, forty cents an hour. There is one railroad that agrees not to hold engineers away from home terminal more than tweny-four hours. Mr. Stone : What road is that? Mr. Cadle : That is the Chicago Great Western. Mr. Trenholm: What road has the twelve hour rule? *.'.'. ^•W'^'^'^v^ ^Vi fl' > ^ ' ^ . ^ ' j ' tv -^ w ^ ^ . v^ 95 Mr. Cadle : The Atchison, Topeka & Santa Fe-Coast Lines. Mr. Stone: All right, go ahead, Mr. Cadle. Mr. Cadle : There are six railroads that pay 100 miles for each twenty-four hours held away from home terminal. Mr. Stone: Will you give the names of those roads, please? Mr. Cadle: They are the Chicago, Milwaukee & St. Paul, the Colorado & Southern, the Denver & Eio Grande (Utah lines), the Fort Worth & Denver City, the New Orleans, Texas & Mexico Lines, and the Oregon-Washington Railroad & Navigation Com- pany. Mr. Stone: All right, go ahead. Mr. Cadle : There are three railroads that agree to correct, when held away from home terminal, an excessive number of hours. Mr. Stone: What roads are those three? Mr. Cadle : The Southern Pacific, Pacific System, the Mis- souri, Kansas & Texas, and the Grand Trunk Pacific, Western Lines. Mr. Stone: Go ahead. Mr. Cadle : There is one railroad that pays engineers, who deliver engines to other districts, an hourly rate after being held fifteen hours, for each hour after fifteen hours. Mr. Stone: For each hour held? Mr. Cadle : After fifteen hours. Mr. Stone : What road is that ? Mr. Cadle : The Illinois Central. Mr. Stone: Is that all? Mr. Cadle : There is one railroad that pays for being held away twenty-four hours after delivering the engine. Mr. Stone: What road is that? Mr. Cadle: That is the Missouri, Oklahoma & Gulf. There is one railroad that pays 100 miles to engineers when held sixteen hours, and 100 miles for each eight hours after the first sixteen hours. Mr. Stone: What road is that? Mr. Cadle: That is the San Antonio & Aransas Pass. Mr. Stone : How do the railroads in the Southeastern ter- ritory compensate their engineers for being held away from home terminal? Mr. Cadle: There are twenty-one railroads in the South- eastern territory that pay engineers ten hours for the first twen- 96 ty-eiglit liours, and a inininiiini of ten hours for each twenty-four hours held thereafter. Mr. Stone: Will you give a list of those roads, please? Mr. Cadle: Alabama & Great Southern; Alabama & Vicks- burg-; Atlanta; Birmingham & Atlantic; Atlantic Coast Line; Central of Georgia; Chesapeake & Ohio; Cincinnati, New Or- leans t^' Texas; Florida East Coast; Georgia Southern & Florida; Georgia Kailroad & Atlanta Joint Terminal; Lexington & East- ern; TiOuisville & Nashville; Mobile & Ohio; Nashville, Chat- tanooga & St. Louis; New Orleans & Great Northern; New Or- leans & Northoastorn; Seaboard Air Line; Southern Railroad System; Southern Railroad of Mississippi; Tennessee Central; Vicksburg & Shreveport. Mr. Stone: How do the railroads in the eastern territory compensate their employes for being held away from the home terminal ? Mr. Cadle: They pay ten hours after being held away from home 28 hours. That is, for the first twenty-eight hours, and then they pay 10 hours for each 24 hours after. That is the award of the Eastern Arbitrators. Mr. Byram: Were any exceptions made under circum- stances such as wrecks, washouts and so forth, to that award? Mr. Cadle: In eastern territory? Mr. Byram: Yes. Mr. Cadle: No, sir. Mr. Byram: No exceptions? Mr. Cadle: No, sir. Mr. Stone: Yes. I should like to correct that, Mr. Chair- man. There are exceptions for wrecks, -washouts, and acts of Providence, I believe, the word is written. Mr. Cadle: Yes. Mr. Byram: You have not made any allowance of that kind. Mr. Cadle: Sir? Mr. Bvram: You have not made anv allowance for such calamities in your proposal. Mr. Cadle : This is not my proposal at all, Mr. Byram. I am reading what j'ou have got in your schedules. Mr. Stone: In our proposal of articles you refer to? Mr. Cadle: The ones I am reading. The ones I read here, these rules. '-. ^aW^ •••» J i ^ I V^» »^ - ■ • .^■- ^ O' ATt f ■ * * W Xl 4 V % ' A: w ^ . — «% a ^ 97 Mr. Byrain : Yes. I am asking if you liave made any provi- sions in the one yon propose to have adopted f Mr. Cadle: No, I don't think so. Mr. Stone: We are living in the hope that none of those dire disasters will happen. Mr. Sheean: But, if they should, you should draw your pay? Mr. Stone : If they should we should draw our pay, because we are away from home. (Reading.) "Article I. Deadheading. ''Engineers and firemen dead- heading on company business shall be paid the same rate and on the same basis as the engineer and fireman on the train on which deadheading. Rules in individual schedules governing minimum day and other conditions, to apply." How do the railroads in the western territory compensate their engineers for deadheading, at the present time? Mr, Cadle : There are 21 railroads in the Western territory that pay full passenger rate when deadheading on company business. Mr. Stone: AVhat are those roads, Mr. Cadle? Mr. Cadle: The Chicago Junction; Chicago, Peoria & St. Louis; Denver & Salt Lake; Duluth & Northern Minnesota; Elgin, Joliet & Eastern; El Paso & Southeastern; Great North- oin ; Houston, East & West Texas ; Houston and Texas Central ; Illinois Central; International and Great Northern; Kansas (^ity, Mexico & Orient; Kansas City Southern; Louisiana Rail- road & Navigation Company; Minnesota & International Rail- road ; Northern Pacific ; San Pedro, Los Angeles & Salt Lake ; Spokane, Portland & Seattle ; Texas Midland ; Trinity & Brazos Valley; Union Pacific. Mr. Stone: Are there any railroads in the AVestern teiii- tory that pay half the passenger rate for deadheading on })as- senger trains? Mr. Cadle : There are 22 such railroads. Mr. Stone: Give the names, please. Mr. Cadle : Chicago, Milwaukee & St. Paul ; Puget Sound Lines; Chicago, Milwaukee & St. Paul, proper; Colorado & Southern; Colorado Springs and Cripple Creek; Denver & Rio Grande System; Denver & Salt Lake; Duluth «& Iron Range; Duluth, Mesaba k Northern; Duluth, South Shore & Atlantic; 98 Ft. Smith & Western; Gulf, Colorado & Santa Fe; Missouri, Oklahoma & Gulf; Midland Valley; Minneapolis, St. Paul & Sault Ste. Marie; New Orleans, Texas & Pacific; Oregon Short Line; Oregon, Washington Railroad & Navigation Company; St. Louis, Brownsville & Mexico; St. Louis & San Francisco Lines; Texas & Pacific; Chicago «& Eastern Illinois. Mr. Stone: Are there any roads in the Western territory that pay full time when carried deadhead on company business? Mr. Cadle: There are twenty-eight such railroads. Mr. Stone : Not in the Western territory I Mr. Cadle: Yes. Mr. Stone: No, that is on freight rates, that pay freight rates when traveling on freight trains. Mr. Cadle: Oh. Mr. Stone : How many roads are there that pay full tune at freight rates when traveling on freight trains — deadheading on freight trains, I mean. Mr. Cadle: There are 28. Mr. Stone: All right, give the names. Mr. Cadle: Chicago Great Western; Chicago Junction; Chicago, Milwaukee & St. Paul, Puget Sound Lines; Chicago, Milwaukee & St. Paul; Chicago, Peoria & St. Louis; Chicago, Rock Island & Pacific Lines; Denver & Rio Grande; Duluth, South Shore & Atlantic; Elgin, Joliet & Eastern; El Paso & Southwestern; Ft. Dodge, Des Moines & Southern; Ft. Worth & Denver City; Great Northern; International & Great North- ern ; Illinois Central ; Kansas City, Mexico & Orient ; Kansas City Southern; Minneapolis, St. Paul & Sault Ste. Marie; Minnesota & International ; Missouri, Oklahoma & Gulf ; North- ern Pacific; San Antonio & Aransas Pass; St. Louis, Browns- ville & Mexico ; Spokane, Portland & Seattle ; Trinity & Brazos Valley; Union Pacific; Wichita Falls; Chicago, Mihvaukee & Gary. Mr. Stone : Are there roads in the Western territory that pay deadhead time in various other ways, in addition to this? Mr. Cadle: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: Can you give us some idea of how they are paid, Mr. Cadle. Mr. Cadle: There are two railroads that pay engineers three cents and a half per mile for the first 100 miles, and half of that amount for the mileage in excess of 100. *,.• ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^K^i^^^^r A 99 Mr. Stone : What are those roads ? Mr. Cadle : The Atchison, Topeka & Santa Fe, Coast Line ; The Santa Fe, Prescott & Phoenix. There is one railroad that pays 21/^ cents per mile for the actual miles traveled in deadhead service. Mr. Stone : What is that road I Mr. Cadle: That is the Atchison, Topeka & Santa Fe, proper. There is one railroad that pays one-half freight rate when deadheading on freight. Mr. Stone : Is that road in the movement 1 Mr. Cadle : No, it is not in the movement. Mr. Stone : One of the western roads 1 Mr. Cadle : Yes. Mr. Stone : What road is it? Mr. Cadle : The Chicago & Eastern Illinois. There are two railroads that pay half the through freight rate when deadhead- ing engineers on passenger trains. Mr. Stone : What are those two roads 1 Mr. Cadle : Chicago, Burlington & Quincy and the Chicago Great Western. There are two railroads that pay half a day for five hours or less. Over five hours they pay a full day when deadheading. Mr. Stone : What are those two railroads 1 Mr. Cadle : The Colorado Midland and the Colorado South- ern. There is one railroad that pays a minimum passenger rate of $4.40 when deadheading on passenger, and a minimum freight rate of $4.80 when deadheading on freight; minimum of 100 miles. Mr. Stone: What road is that? Mr. Cadle : The Chicago, Rock Island & Pacific. There is one railroad that pays the actual mileage ; pays the actual mileage at 4.40 cents per mile for deadheading, and such time shall be used to make up constructive mileage. Mr. Stone : What road is that? Mr. Cadle : The Chicago & North Western. There are two railroads that pay half of the actual mileage deadheaded traveled at 4 cents a mile. Mr. Stone : What are those two roads ? Mr. Cadle: Chicago, St. Paul, Minneapolis & Omaha, and the Minneapolis & St. Louis. There is one railroad that pays 43 cents per hour for deadheading. 100 Mr. Stone: Wliat road is that? Mr. Cadlo: Ft. Dodge, Des Moines & Soiitliern. There are five railroads that pay $2.20 for 75 miles. Over 75 miles and less that 200 they pay $4.40, and in no case will there be less than $4.90 allowed. Mr. Stone : That is the minimum of $4.90, as you under- stand it? Mr. Cadle: Yes. Mr. Stone : What are those five roads? Mr. Cadle : There is the Southern Pacific, Atlantic System, The Texas & New Orleans; Louisiana AVestern, Morgan's Louis- iana & Texas, Iberia & Vermillion. Those roads comprise one system of railroads, the Southern Pacific Atlantic System. There is one railroad that pays $4.25 per 100 miles for d(>nd- heading. Mr. Stone : What road is that ? Mr. Cadle: The Chicago & Alton. There is one railroad that pays three hours, at the class of service sent to perform. Mr. Stone: Well, that is a terminal proposition, is it not? Mr. Cadle : It is the Baltimore & Ohio Chicago Terminal, l)ut, as I understand these deadhead rules, a terminal railroad might deadhead a man over the Illinois Central for a witness, might deadhead him to an investigation and, I understand, when a man deadheads off of his own railroad, under these rules, he would be paid these rates — these rates would apply. Now, that is the reason that I spoke about the Baltimore & Ohio Chicago Terminal. Mr. Stone : You mean by that the rate that is paid by the company where he is emploj^ed? Mr. Cadle : Yes, sir, they frequently deadhead men over other railroads, and his rate on his own system would apply. Mr. Sheean : Not now. Mr. Cadle : There is one railroad that pays 4 cents a mile for half of the actual miles traveled when deadlieading on a pas- senger train. That is the Minneapolis, St. Poul & Sault Ste. Marie. There is one railroad that pays 4 cents a mile for the actual miles traveled. Mr. Stone : Or, half the actual miles traveled? Mr. Cadle : Or half the actual miles traveled, in either pas- senger or freight service. i^ ^'♦'•V^ A ^ k M.W^.Wm • • * r; v^-^<&v '"vvv^kftk. -w^-.w. 101 Mr. Stone : What road is that ? Mr. Cadle: It is the Minneapolis & St. Louis. Tliere is one railroad that pays 46 cents an hour for deadhead service. Mr. Stone : What road is that, Mr. Cadle? Mr. Cadle: That is the Louisiana & Arkansas. There is one railroad that pays 4 cents a mile for less than 50 miles; $4.00 for 50 miles, up to 100 ; over 100 miles 4 cents a mile. That is the Missouri, Kansas & Texas. Mr. Stone: No, I think you are wrong in that, Mr. Cadle. They have a different deadhead rate. Mr. Cadle : I read it off. Mr. Stone : There are some more in the western territory, are there not? Mr. Cadle: Just wait until I finish that. This same rail- road, they pay $4.80 for deadheading in any 24 hour period. If less than 50 miles is traveled, one-half that amount will he al- lowed. That is the Missouri, Kansas & Texas. Mr. Stone: The other railroad is not given? Mr. Cadle: No, that is the completion of that one rail- road. There is one railroad that pays 3 cents a mile for less than 50 miles. 50 miles to 100 miles, $3. Over 100 miles, 3 cents a mile. Mr. Stone : What company is that ? Mr. Cadle: The Missouri Pacific. There is one railroad that pays 4 1-2 cents a mile, with a minimum of 100 miles for deadheading. Mr. Stone : What road is that, Mr. Cadle ? Mr. Cadle : The St. Louis & Southwestern. Mr. Stone : Is not your rate wrong on that f Is it not 4.3 instead of 4 8-4? Mr. Cadle: 4,3, yes. There is one railroad that pays $4.40 per day. If other service is performed on the same date, will pay half a daj" for six hours or less at the rate of $4.40. Mr. Stone: What road is that, Mr. Cadle? Mr. Cadle: Southern Pacific. The Pacific Svsteni. There is one railroad that pays 2.65 cents per mile for dead- heading. Mr. Stone : What line is that ? Mr. Cadle: The Wabash Eailroad. 102 Mr. Stone: When you speak of the Wabash Railroad, you speak of the lines west of Detroit, do you not? Mr. Cadle: Yes. The Chairman: Will you suspend? We will adjourn until one o'clock tomorrow. We will not meet until one o'clock to morrow, owing to the fact that one member of the Board has another engagement. Mr. Sheean: The adjournment now is until one? The Chairman: Yes, until one. Not until the usual hour, but until one. (Whereupon, at 5 o'clock P. M., November 30, 1914, an ad- journment was taken until 1 o'clock P. M. December ], 1914.) »*•'-. '♦W r;i \n m ? ^ * .>.. - ■ * r;r=-r- TZWS iVV-'A ft.*.! '^^ . ^ *^-«- 103 IN^ THE MATTER OF THE AEBITRATION between the WESTERN RAILWAYS and BROTHERHOOD OF LOCOMOTIVE ENGINEERS and BROTHERHOOD OF LOCOMOTIVE FIRE-' MEN AND ENGINEMEN under the Act approved July 15, 1913, by agree- ment dated August 3, 1914. Chicago, Illinois, Dec. 1, 1914. Met, pursuant to adjournment, at 1 o 'clock P. M. Present: Arbitrators and parties as before. The Chairman : Proceed with vour testimony. «^ %■' Mr, Stone : With the permission of the Board I desire to read a statement into the record. Yesterday a question came up in regard to Article 7, ''Automatic Release," in regard to certain classes of service, and I should like to read this statement into the record. (Reading.) Referring to Article 7, "Automatic Release," and our state- ment of November 30, that it was not intended to apply to "sub- urban service," and the request of Mr. Sheean that our state- ment be made more definite, we desire to file the following : Our files show that, under date of April 23, 1914, the Chair- man of the Conference Committee of Managers wrote us a letter asking many questions as to the application of the several articles we had presented, including the following: "Art. 7. Does this apply to Helper, Pusher and Work Train service?" Under date of April 30, 1914, we replied as follows : "Art. 7. Answer: The proposed Automatic Release rule does not apply to regular helper or pusher service, nor does it apply to work train service, regular or otherwise, except when in 104 either service scliediiles in effect October 10, 1913, contain such provision." Again, in our letter of same date is the following language: "Art. 7. Our proposal does not contemplate the applica- tion of tlio Automatic I^olease rule to Suburban Service." That this was so understood by the Association of Western Railways is proven by their letter of May 2, 1914, addressed to us, which reads, in part as follows: *' Because of the statement contained in your reply of April 27, that Article 7, Automatic Release and Tie-Up, did not apply to Suburban Service, a material reduction from figures given verbally is made." Our position regarding the modification of Article 7; to the extent indicated in our letter to Mr. Trenholm, under date of April 30, 1914, remains the same now as when that letter was written, and we are willing that the Board of Arbitration should so consider the article. It is understood, of course, that the Automatic Release does apply to all other classes of service that we have not named here. The article is only modified to that extent. The Chairman: You have not finished with the witness who was under examination, have vou? Mr. Stone: Mr. Chairman, an imfortunate thing has hap- pened that cannot be avoided. Our witness whom we had on the stand yesterday, Mr. Cadle, is very sick, under a doctor's care, and it will be impossible for him to come on the witness stand this afternoon. Just as soon as he is able, he will return and complete his testimony and be subject to cross-examination. In the meantime, it will be necessary for us to place another witness on the stand. The Chairman : Call your witness. WALTER D. MOORE was called as a witness and, having been duly sworn, testified as follows : DIRECT EXAMINATION. Mr. Phillips: Please state your full name? Mr. Moore : Walter D. Moore. ^»-. • ^si't i » ■ ■ ' j. V k I iv^ » j . ■ ' ^^jm £ ' » •m * 105 Mr. Phillips: What is your business! Mr. Moore: I am employed as a clerk in the office of the Brotherhood of Locomotive Firemen and Enginemen. Mr. Phillips: How long have you been so employed? Air. Moore: Nearly a year. Mr. Phillips: What was your business prior to that time? Mr. Moore: I was employed as a fireman and engineer on the Missouri, Kansas & Texas Railroad. Mr. Phillips: How long did you serve as a fireman and engineer ? Mr. Moore : I began service as a fireman on August 2, 1902, and was promoted to the position of engineer December 13, 1912. Mr. Phillips : You are now employed as a clerk by the Brotherhood of Locomotive Firemen and Enginemen? Mr. Moore: Yes. Mr. Phillips : In their Grand Lodge office f Mr. Moore: Yes. Mr. Phillips: As a clerk of this Brotherhood have you compiled any information pertaining to rates of pay for firemen and hostlers in this Western territory? Mr. Moore: Yes, sir. Mr. Phillips: I have here a volume entitled ''Locomotive Firemen and Hostlers' Request, compared with similar rates and rules in effect on railroads participating in this arbitra- tion." Do you identify this as the compilation of data which you have prepared? Mr. Moore: Yes, Mr. Phillips: If the Board please, we desire to introduce this as Exhibit No. 2. (The book entitled "Locomotive P'iremen's & Hostlers' Request," so offered and identified, was received in evidence and marked "Employes' Exhibit No. 2, December 1, 1914.") Mr. Phillips : Has this information been compiled by you personally, Mr. Moore? Mr. Moore: Yes, sir. Mr. Phillips : How has the data been gathered, or how has this exhibit been prepared? Mr. Moore: I have taken the articles of the different schedules of the roads, parties to these negotiations, and grouped lOG them iHidor cacli of the 16 propositions subniittod by the engineers and firemen; and, in addition, I have selected 26 geii- eral subjects and grouped the remaining articles of the schedules nnder each of the general subjects as relate to such subjects. Mr. Phillips: Are the rules under these subjects repro- duced in their entirety? Mr. Moore: Yes, they are an exact reproduction of the articles of schedules, except, in some instances, it has been neces- sary to make an insertion to show what the rule reproduced referred to, and when such insertion has been made they are enclosed in brackets. For instance, if you will kindly turn to page No. 2 of the text matter of exhibits, you will note a one line paragraph, about a quarter of the way up from the bottom of the page, reading : ''Ten hours or less to constitute a day's work on helper service. Overtime, pro rata." This paragraph is taken from a schedule in which helper service is covered by four or five paragraphs, and to show that it refers to helper service in particular I insert the words, "in helper service," so as to make it clear that the reading of the schedule, "Ten hours or less to constitute a day's work. Over- time pro rata," refers to helper service. Mr. Phillii:>s : Then, if I understand you correctly, the rule as it appears in the schedule would read, "Ten hours or less to constitute a day's work. Overtime, pro rata." Mr. Moore: Yes, sir. Mr. Phillips: And, you insert the words "in helper serv- ice" in brackets to indicate that the specific rule applies to helper service ? Mr. Moore: Yes, sir. Mr. Phillips: That is clear in the schedule, is it! Mr. Moore: Yes, sir. Mr. Phillips: How is it made clear? By the caption of the rule ? Mr. Moore : The four or five paragraphs covering helper service are considered under the general caption "Helper service. ' ' Mr. Phillips : Would these other paragraphs, relating pos- sibly to rates of pay for other conditions of service, appear 107 under the proper heads at the different pUices in this exhibit? Mr. Moore : Yes, sir. Mr. Phillips: Turn back to page 1. This first article, Article 1. ''Basis of a day's work," — is this the exact Article 1 contained in the Articles submitted to arbitration? Mr. Moore : Yes, sir. Mr. Phillips: And reproduced here in the same language? Mr. Moore : Yes, sir. Mr. Phillips : If the Board please, I think it will save time not to read that again. It was read into the record yesterday. The Chairman: Yes, it is not necessary to read it. Mr. Phillips : We merely wish to identify the Article ? The Chairman: Yes. Mr. Phillips : Has every road represented in this move- ment a rule of this kind, or some similar rule, in their schedules for firemen and hostlers? Mr. Moore : There are many roads wbich have a rule in passenger service defining a day's work of five hours or less, and tbere are quite a good many roads which have a definition defining a day's work in freight service as ten hours or less. There are, however, other roads in passenger service which have eight hours as a day's work, and some which have ten hours a day in passenger service, and some on the schedule of the trains ; and, in freight service, there are a few roads which have an eight-hour day, and one road which has a nine-hour day, of the roads represented in these negotiations. Mr. Phillips : Mr. Moore, I would like to call your atten- tion to the figures in brackets near the bottom of page 1. ''p. 25,26,27." To what do they refer? Mr. Moore : They refer to the page number of the schedule from which this reproduction is taken. Mr. Phillips: That is to say, this, I take it, is reproduced from the schedule of the Atchison, Topeka & Santa Fe Kailway Company, Coast Lines ? Mr. Moore : Yes, sir, on pages 25, 26 and 27. Mr. Phillips : That would be the schedule page of their existing schedule or working agreement? Mr. Moore: Yes, sir. •Mr. Phillips : Did I understand you to say that a number of railroads already bad a day in passenger service of five hours or less ? 108 Mr. Moore: Yos, sir. Mr. Pliillips: ITowmany? Mr. Moore: Accordiiio- to the soliediiles, there are fifteen roads in these nei^'otiations tliat have a day five liours or less, or better, or ten liours or less or better. Mr. Phillips: Are those roads all included in the move- ment? Mr. Moore: Yes, sir. Mr. Pliillips : Are the schedule rules reproduced here taken only from schedules of roads participating in this movement? Mr. Moore: Yes, sir. Mr. Phillips: You have not included the rules of roads in the western territory not parties to this arbitration ? Mr. Moore: No, sir, they are not included. Mr. Phillips: Have any roads a ten-hour day in freight service ? Mr. Moore: Yes, sir. A majority of the roads have a ten-hour day in the freight service. To be exact, there are 52 of the roads represented in these negotiations which have a ten- hour day in the freight service. Mr. Philli]is: Did I understand you to say some of the roads had a shorter dav than a ten-hour dav? Mr. Moore: Yes, sir, there are nine roads which have a day shorter than ten hours in freight service. Mr. Phillips: What roads are they, please? Mr. Moore : Those which have an eight-hour daj^ in freight service are the El Paso & Southwestern; the Houston & Texas Central ; the Houston, East & West Texas ; the St. Louis, Browns- ville & Mexico; the San Antonio & Aransas Pass; Southern Pacific, Atlantic System; Southern Pacific System, except moun- tain districts over 100 miles; the Denver & Eio Grande, Utah Line, have an eight-hour day, and the Canadian Northern has a nine-hour day. Mr. Phillips : Those roads have a day, as you understand, from their schedules, shorter than the day asked for in this arbi- tration? Mr. Moore: Yes, sir. Mr. Pliilli]is : And 52 of the remaining roads, the majority, I believe you said, liave a ten-hour day, as requested. Mr. Moore : Yes, sir. 109 Mr. Phillips: Are the rules showing the basis for these days' pay all reproduced here? Mr. Moore: Yes, sir. jMr. Phillips: For every one of the roads parties to this schedule liavina;- such a rule? Mr. Moore: Yes, sir. Mr. Phillips: Have you indexed this exhibit, Mr. Moore? i\Ir. Moore: I did not personally index it. It has been indexed, however. Mr. Phillips : Now, turn to page 64, please, Article 2, rates of pay. That is the same article contained in the 16 articles sub- mitted to arbitration? Mr. Moore: It is a part of Article 2, which is contained in the original 16 articles. This jDarticular part of Article 2 refers to rates of pay in passenger and freight service as used in this exhibit. However, to make the reproductions absolutely clear as to the different classes of service covered by Article 2, I have subdivided Article 2 into five separate headings, and the articles of the schedule that relate to these headings are repro- duced under the headings. Mr. Phillips: Then, Article 2 covers several different mat- ters, does it? Mr. Moore: Yes, sir. I have, in this exhibit, divided Article 2 under five headings. The first covers rate of pay, pas- senger and freight service; the second heading covers rate of pay, pusher, helper, mine runs, work, wreck, belt line, transfer and all other unclassified service ; the third heading covers differ- ential, account of grades; the fourth heading covers, rates of pay, narrow gauge locomotives; and the fifth division covers rates of pay, electric service. My. Phillips : Under these respective headings have you produced the exact rules from the various schedules covering the services named? Mr, Moore: Yes, sir. Mr. Phillips : And, this tabulation here refers only to the rates of pay for firemen in passenger and freight service? Mr. Moore: Yes, sir. Mr. Phillips: I note here the entire tabulation appears to be based upon a weight on drivers plan, beginning with 80,000 pounds on drivers and running up to a somewhat higher weight, 110 400,000 pounds, or something like tliat. Have any roads in this movement a schedule wherein firemen are compensated on a basis of weight on drivers? Mr. ]\Ioore: Yes, sir. Tliere are 17 roads in these nego- tiations which have either in whole or in part a basis of pay, based on weights on drivers. Mr. Phillips: Could you name those roads? Have you a list of them? Mr. Moore: Yes, sir, the arbitration award of 1910 for firemen provides that, on simple engines with cylinders of 24 inches or over in diameter and compound engines weighing 215,- 000 jDounds or more on drivers, the rate of pay for firemen would be $3.75, and there are 43 roads represented in these negotiations which were parties to the negotiations of 1910. In addition to this particular class of engine, as to weights on drivers, the following railroads have one or more classifications: The Atchison, Topeka & Santa Fe, Coast Line; the Atchison, To- peka & Santa Fe, proper; the Chicago & North Western; the Chicago, Milwaukee & St. Paul, Puget Sound Line ; the Duluth, South Shore & Atlantic; Mineral Eange; the Gulf, Colorado & Santa Fe; the Kansas City Southern; the Missouri, Kansas & Texas ; the Oregon Short Line ; the Oregon & Washington Eail- road & Navigation Company; the St. Louis & San Francisco ; the Southern Pacific, Atlantic System; Southern Pacific, Pacific Sys- tem; the Spokane, Portland & Seattle;- the Union Pacific and the Western Pacific. Now, all these roads I have named have some schedules containing only the classification of the locomotives in service, while, in the general text of the schedule, the basis of rates of pay is fixed upon a cylinder or some other basis rather than weights on drivers, and these roads which contain one classification in the schedule, with the rates of pay following, are the Chicago & North Western; the Missouri, Kansas & Texas; the Oregon Short Line and the Union Pacific. Of this number, I might state that, since this book has been compiled, 1 have learned that the classification as given in the schedule furnished us for the Chicago & North Western is not absolutely correct ; that is, it was correct so far as the Chairman knew up to last October — not last October, but October, 1913 — the sched- ule furnished us from which this exhibit was compiled for the Chicago & North Western was a tj-pewritten schedule, they hav- ing had no signed schedule in its entirety since 1907. Ill Mr. Phillips: Then, you have been advised that the com- pany or the Chairman, the representative of the men on that road, had received information that was not entirely accurate? Mr. Moore : Yes, sir. Mr. Phillips: And he had so informed you? Mr. Moore : It was accurate, I so understand, up to Octo- l3er, 1913. Mr. Phillips: You said, I iDelieve, that 43 roads partici- pated in some former settlement or concerted wage movement wherein weight on drivers was adopted as a basis for fixing fire- men's pay to some extent, at least. Mr. Moore : Yes, sir, for compound engines weighing 215,- 000 pounds on drivers. Mr. Phillips: Would that mean that there were 43 roads having weight on drivers as a basis, to that extent, anyway? Mr. Moore : No, sir, I do not understand it that way. The understanding is that the agreement affected 43 roads. Whether they had this particular class of engine in service or not I am not prepared to state. Mr. Phillips: They would only apply if they had the en- gines of such a dimension or weight? Mr. Moore: Yes. Mr. Phillips: If they had such an engine it would apply? Mr. Moore: Yes, sir. Mr. Phillips: On these other roads which you have just named, they make a part or all of their classification, for fixing rates of compensation, on the weight on drivers basis? Mr. Moore: Yes, sir. Mr. Phillips : You produce, in their entirety, all of the rules and the rates following this Article 2, or this subdivision of Article 2, beginning on page 64? Mr. Moore: Yes, sir, covering freight and passenger ser\T.ce. Mr. Phillips : Yes, I understood you to say this pertained to freight and passenger service only? Mr. Moore: Yes, sir. Mr. Phillips: Now, turn to page 105, please, Mr. Moore. This, I believe you explained, is a subdivision of Article 2, one of the subdivisions of Article 2 submitted to arbitration? Mr. Moore: Yes, sir. 112 Mr. Pliillips: And refers to pusher, lielper, mine runs, work, wreck, belt line, transfer and other unclassified service? Mr, Moore: Yes, sir. Mr. Phillips: Do any of the roads in this western terri- tory, parties to this arbitration, pay through freight rates to firemen for any of the different services enumerated in this article or this subdivision of Article 2? Mr. Moore: Yes, sir. I find there are 40 roads which pay for either all or part of the services mentioned in this subdi- vision of Article 2 on a through freight basis. Mr. Pliillips : Do any of the roads have a rule exactly like this? Mr. Moore: Not in that exact language. Mr. Phillips: But, I understand you to say, forty of the roads pay through freight rates to firemen for some of the serv- ices here enumerated? Mr. Moore: Yes, sir. Mr. Phillips : It is possible, is it not, that some of the serv- ice there enumerated would not be found on all of the railroads ? Mr. Moore: Yes, sir. Mr. Phillips : That is, some roads may not have mine run service, and other roads may not have pusher and helper serv- ice, and then other roads may not have transfer service? Mr. Moore : Yes, sir. Mr. Pliillips : But you find forty roads that do pay for all or part of this service through freight rates? Mr. Moore: Yes, sir. Mr. Phillips: Are you prepared to give the number of roads that pay through freight rates to pusher and helper service ? Mr. Moore: According to the schedules there are seven roads wliicli pay through freight rates to pusher and helper service. Mr. Phillips: How about work train service? Mr. Moore: I find that, according to the schedules, there are fifteen roads which pay through freight rates for work train service. Mr. Phillips: Do any of the roads pay through freight rates for wrecking service 1 Mr. Moore : The schedules show that there are five roads which pay through freight rates for wrecking service. 113 Mr. Phillips : I uiulerstand you to say you had had some experience as an engineer and fireman? Mr. Moore: Yes. Mr. Phillips: Do you understand what is meant by this term '* Other unclassified service?" Mr. Moore : I understand the term to mean the classes of service which may not possibly be covered in the schedule. ''Other unclassified service," as used here, means, as I infer, service not particularly mentioned, not otherwise covered in the schedule. Mr. Phillips : To specify, such as circus trains ? Mr. Moore: Circus trains. Mr. Phillips. Snow plows? Mr. Moore : Snow plow service. Mr. Phillips: And breaking in engines, and light engines and various service of that kind that is irregular and intermit- tent, and not sufficiently regular to be enumerated as regular service ? Mr. Moore: Yes. Mr. Phillips : Is that what you mean by other unclassified service ? Mr. Moore: Yes. Mr. Phillips : Did you make any check, or are you pre- pared to state whether any of the roads pay through freight rates for any of these various classes of service? Mr. Moore: Yes, in a list that I have here of the forty roads, there are quite a number of roads which pay through freight rates for snow plow service, mixed train service, circus train service, and so forth. Mr. Phillips: Those rules are all contained in the rules following here, from the different railroads, where such rules exist? Mr. Moore : Yes, sir. Mr. Phillips : Now, turn next to page 164. This is still a subdivision of Article 2, and has reference to rates of pay on divisions where grade is 1.8 per cent and other? Mr. Moore : Yes. Mr. Phillips : How many roads in the Western territory al- low a differential on account of mountain grades ? Mr. Moore: According to the schedule there are eleven 114 roads which allow a differential on account of mountain grades. Mr. Phillii:>s: "Will you please give the names of those roads? Mr. Moore: The Atchison, Topeka & Santa Fe — Coast Lines, the Atchison, Topeka & Santa Fe, proper, the Canadian Pacific, the Chicago, Milwaukee & St. Paul — Puget Sound Lines, the Colorado & Southern, the Denver & Rio Grande, the Great Northern, the Northern Pacific, the Oregon & Washington Rail- road &: Navigation Company, the Santa Fe, Prescott & Phoenix, the Southern Pacific Company — Pacific System. Mr. Phillips: Have any of the roads a rule like the rule here proposed? Mr. Moore : The Great Northern has a rule providing for a ten per cent differential. Mr. Phillips : Upon parts of the road where the grade is 1.8 per cent or over? Mr. Moore: Yes, sir. Mr. Phillips : How are the rules on the other roads you have enumerated ! Are they variable ? Mr. Moore: Yes, sir, they differ considerably. On some roads the allowance is on a trip basis. On others, constructive mileage is allowed. On others, additional allowance is made, and, on one road, they have a ten per cent differential. Mr. Phillips : You say it is allowed on a trip basis in some cases. What are we to understand by that, Mr. Moore 1 Mr. Moore : I understand that, we will say, for a trip of 115 miles, on account of the grade, ten additional miles is allowed. Mr. Phillips : Then, a fireman would receive 125 miles for the trip, instead of the actual miles — 115 ? Mr. Moore : Yes. Mr. Phillips : Is that uniform, or is the allowance more in some cases and less in other cases? Mr. Moore : It varies with the grade, as I understand it. It is in some instances only five miles. In the Denver & Rio Grande, I understand, some divisions are paid a day for 44 miles. Mr. Phillips : That is, they allow to a fireman a day's pay for less tlian 100 miles? Mr. Moore : Yes, 44 miles. 115 Mr. Phillips : For as little as 44 miles they allow a full day's pay? Mr. Moore: Yes, sir. Mr. Phillips : I do not suppose you are familiar with con- ditions on the Denver & Eio Grande Railroad? Mr. Moore : No, sir, not at all. Mr. Phillips : Your knowledge of these rules is gained from reading them and compiling them in this volume ? Mr. Moore : That is all. Mr. Phillips : And the understanding you have is gained from your reading of them and their most plain and obvious meaning ? Mr. Moore : Yes, sir. Mr. Phillips : These rules are all contained here, the same as in the preceding Mr. Moore : Yes, sir. Mr. Phillips : In connection with this gradient differential do the rules disclose that, in some instances, the rates of pay, the mileage rates, the basic rates, I mean, are higher in moun- tain territory than in valley territory? Mr. Moore : Yes, sir. Mr. Phillips : Where this rate of pay was higher, would this differential also be allowed at the higher rate of pay under the rules? Mr. Moore : I understand that, according to the proposed rule, a ten per cent differential will be allowed over the usual through freight rate. Mr. Phillips : Now, for example, if the Atchison, Topeka & Santa Fe had a higher rate west of La Junta (which is getting into mountain territory, I believe) than it has east of La Junta, as shown by the schedule and, then, in addition ten miles excess or constructive or mountain mileage were allowed on some par- ticular district, would that fireman receive (assuming that it was 110 miles distance), would he receive 120 miles, at the higher rate? Do you understand the schedules to so allow? Mr. Moore: Well, not being familiar with the way in which the schedule article does apply, I am not prepared to state. Mr. Phillips : You never worked that out ? Mr. Moore : I never worked out that. IIG !Mr. Phillips : These rules, I understand, are quite vari- able? Mr. Moore : Yes, sir. Mr. Phillips : And, only on one road is a rule exactly like this in effect? Mr. Moore : Yes, sir. Mr. Phillips : I believe, if you will turn to page 177, now, we still have another subdivision of Article 2, ''Narrow gauge locomotives." How many railroads participating in this arbitration have narrow gauge locomotives according to the schedule f Mr. Moore: Three roads. ■ Mr. Phillips : Will you name the roads, please? Mr. Moore : Chicago & North Western ; Colorado & South- ern ; Denver & Rio Grande. Mr. Phillips : Have you made any comparison to ascertain the rates of pay on these narrow gauge lines compared with the rates for locomotives on broad gauge lines? Mr. Moore: No, sir. Mr. Phillips : You have reproduced the rates of pay, how- ever, and the rules for the narrow gauge service? Mr. Moore: Yes, sir. Mr. Phillips : Now, let us turn to page 180. This also is a subdivision of Article 2, is it not? Mr. Moore: Yes, sir. Mr. Phillips : To what does this section or subdivision of Article 2 apply? Mr. Moore: To electric service. j\Ir. Pliillips: According to the schedules, on how many western railroads is a second man or a helper used on any kind of power other than locomotive engines? I mean any kind of propelling power, such as gasoline, or electric cars, or elec- tric motors? Mr. Moore : I understand that there is only one road upon which an additional man is employed, and that is the Great Northern. Mr. Phillips : They employ a second man on the Mr. Moore: Yes, sir. Mr. Phillips: Now, turning to the article for a moment. You will note, it reads at the last part of the paragraph: — 117 "The term 'Helper' will be understood to mean the second man employed on electric locomotives or other power". Wonld you understand the rates here proposed would apply to that second man f Mr. Moore : Yes, sir, the rates proposed for helj)er would apply to the second man. Mr. Phillips: He would be a helper? Mr. Moore : Yes, sir. Mr. Phillips: What is he called, in the schedule I Mr. Moore: On the Great Northern, he is called a trolley man. The Chairman: Called a what? Mr. Moore: A trolley man. Mr. Phillips : Do you give his rate of pay here ? Mr. Moore : Yes, sir, $3.30, ten hours or less, 100 miles or less. Mr. Phillips : If that electric locomotive were used on a part of the territory where a gradient ditferential of 10 per cent was allowed, w^ould you understand that he would be en- titled to that gradient differential? Mr. Moore: I would, in view of the fact that there is no difference made in the schedule. Mr. Phillips : Then, if his basic rate is $3.30, did you sav! Mr. Moore : $3.30, yes, sir. Mr. Phillips: And lie received a gradient differential of ten per cent (providing he worked in such territory) w^ould he receive, according to the schedule, $3.30 plus ten per cent, or plus 33 cents? Mr. Moore: Yes, sir. Mr. Phillips: Or $3.63 for ten hours or less? Mr. Moore: Yes, sir, that is my understanding. Mr. Phillips: Do you know where these electric locomo- tives were used on the Great Northern? Mr. Moore: No, sir, I do not. Mr. Phillips: That is the only road the schedules show that has a second man on any kind of power other than steam power ? Mr. Moore: Yes, sir. Mr. Pliillij^s : You include a rule here, Mr. Moore, on page 118 181 — quite an extensive rule, quoted evidently from the St. Louis, Brownsville & Mexico Kailroad. Do the rates con- tained therein apply to electric service? Mr. Moore: When this l)ook was prepared I was under the impression that tlie rates of pay for through freight and local freight, as mentioned in tliis book, referred to electric service, because of the fact that it is the only scliedule in the Western territory that has a basis of pay based upon tractive power, and the article proposed for electric service is basis of power based on tractive power, and I fell into the error that this particular part referred to electric service. Since that time, I have learned that only the last line in rates, that is ''Motor Cars: Ten hours or less, $4", refers to electric ser\dce, and that $4 should be $4.40. The rest of the article is taken from the schedule as it appears under electric service. Mr. Philhps: That line, then — the second line under the tabulation ''Local Freight" should read $4.40 instead of $4? Mr. Moore: Yes, sir. I have made a pen correction of the error. Mr. Phillips: Pardon me, did you correct the books, the copies that have been offered in evidence? Mr. Moore : I think thev are all corrected. Mr. Phillips : Then, as I understand it, this rule, although quoted under the caption "Rates of j^ay, electric service" ap- plies to steam sei'vice, with the exception of that one line making proWsion for motor car service? Mr. Moore : Yes, sir. Mr. Phillips: The rules wdiich follow apply to motor car service, do they not? Mr. Moore: Yes, sir. Mr. Phillips: But, so far as the rates of pay are con- cerned, that is the only reference to anything besides steam locomotive ser\dce? Mr. Moore: Yes, sir. Mr. Phillips: Now, if you will turn with me to page 182, "Article 3, Local and Way Freight Service," on how many roads in the Western territory is a differential for firemen in the local or way freight service allowed? Mr. Moore: I find, according to the schedule, there are 119 46 roads in which a differential is allowed between local and through freight service. Mr. Phillips : Have any of these roads rules defining what local or way freight service is ? Mr. Moore : Yes, the schedules show there are seven roads with rules defining local or way freight service. Mr. Phillips : Are those rules anything like the rule here proposed? Mr. Moore : Not exactly like the rule here proposed. The rules, however, define what constitutes way freight service. Mr. Phillips : You say tliey are not exactly like this rule here? Are they similar in any respect? Mr. Moore : The Chicago & North Western has a rule Mr. Phillips : On what page ? Mr. Moore : On page 184. That rule reads : ' ' All trains loading or unloading way-freight or doing station switching, shall be classed as way-freights, and firemen shall receive com- pensation accordingly. This shall not be construed to apply to through trains setting out or picking up car loads, or handling small lots of local freight in case of emergency." The Chicago Great Western Railroad has a rule somewhat similar to the one contained in the schedule for the Chicago & North Western. That rule is found on page 185, and reads as follows : •'All trains loading or unloading way freight or doing sta- tion switching, or run for switching purposes, shall be classed as way-freight or switch trains, and firemen shall receive way- freight compensation for entire trip. ''This shall not be construed to apply to through freight trains setting out or picking up car loads or handling small lots of local freight in cases of emergency. ' ' Mr. Phillips : You have reproduced the other rules-, have you, from the roads having them? Mr. Moore : Yes, sir, they are all contained in this article. Mr. Phillips : If the Board please, I do not want to burden the record; and I may say in explanation that it has been our purpose to have tliese rules compiled in such a way that they might be referred to readily at any moment. You liave there 120 first the articles submitted to arl)itratioii, and every rule from every railroad beariiiu: on the subject covered in the article. The Chairman : I think you have gone far enough to give us a fair insight into the exliibit. Mr. Phillips: ]\rr. Moore, in one of the rules you read^ — T believe the Chicago & North Western — it states that firemen ''shall receive compensation accordingly," without going into the rate of pav. AVould vou understand from that clause that firemen would receive a way-freight differential of whatever the amount was on that road? Mr. Moore: They would receive the rate of pay ]U'ovided for wav-freight service. Mr. Phillips : If it was a differential they would receive it? Mr. Moore: Yes. Mr. Phillips: I believe you said 40 roads in the western country allow a local freight differential to firemen. Mr. Moore: There are 46 roads. Mr. Phillips: Was it 46? Pardon me. Mr. Moore: Yes. Mr. Phillips: Please turn next to page 201. I note this article is also headed Article Ill-b. Have you subdivided this article? Mr. Moore: Yes, this is a part of the original article as submitted by the engineers and firemen. Mr. Phillips: From reading this article I understand that provision is made for additional pay for firemen in through freight service when certain labors are performed enroute. Is that your understanding of the rule? Mr. jSIoore: Yes, sir. Mr. Phillips: Have any of the roads parties to this arbi- tration rules ])roviding additional j^ay for such work as is here defined or mentioned, either all of it or any part of it? Mr. Moore: Yes, the schedules show that there are 45 roads which provide an additional allowance over through freight pay for the service mentioned. Mr. Phillips : Have any of them a rule very much like this ? Mr. Moore : No, sir, not exactly like that. Mr. Phillips : I believe you said 45 roads -pay for some part of this service? Mr. Moore: Yes. 121 Mr. Phillips : That is, loading or iniloading freight, stock, or company material, switching at stations, spurs and mines and mills, or required to pick up or set out cars, unless cars to be piqked up are first out, or cars to be set out are switched at ter- minals, or doing any other or similar work, you find that some or aU of that service is paid for on 45 roads? Mr. Moore: Yes, sir. Mr. Phillips : Does that include the larger systems of rail- roads? Mr. Moore: Practically all of the larger systems. Mr. Phillips: Have you the names of the roads there? Mr. Moore: Yes. Mr. Phillips: Please read them. Mr. Moore: The Atchison, Topeka & Santa Fe, Coast Lines; the Atchison, Topeka & Santa Fe, proper; Canadian Northern; Canadian Pacific; Chicago & North Western; the Chicago, Burlington &, Quincy ; Chicago, Milwaukee & St. Paul ; the Chicago, St. Paul, Minneapolis & Omaha ; the Denver & Rio Grande ; the Duluth, South Shore & Atlantic and Mineral Range ; the El Paso & Southwestern ; the Esquimalt & Nanaimo ; the Ft. Worth & Denver City; the Great Northern; the Gulf, Colorado & Santa Fe; the Kansas City Southern; the Minneapolis, St. Paul & Sault Ste. Marie; the Missouri & North Arkansas; the Missouri, Kansas & Texas; the Missouri, Oklahoma & Gulf; the Missouri Pacific-Iron Mountain; the Northern Pacific; the Ore- gon Short Line; the Oregon & Washington Railroad & Naviga- tion Company; the Rock Island Lines; St. Louis & San Fran- cisco ; the St. Louis, Brownsville & Mexico ; St. Louis Southwest- ern ; the San Antonio & Aransas Pass ; the San Pedro, Los An- geles & Salt Lake; the Southern Pacific, Atlantic System; the Spokane, Portland & Seattle; the Trinity & Brazos Valley; the Union Pacific; the Wabash; the Western Pacific; the Wichita Valley. All these roads pay an additional allowance if the time exceeds ten hours or the distance 100 miles. On the Chicago Great Western, the Chicago, Milwaukee & St. Paul, Puget Sound Lines ; the Colorado & Southern ; the In- ternational & Great Northern; the Northern Pacific; the San Antonio & Aransas Pass; the San Pedro, Los Angeles & Salt Lake; the Southern Pacific- Atlantic System, and the Texas Pa- cific, nine roads, an arbitrary allowance is paid. 122 Mr. Phillips: Wliat do you mean by an arbitrary allow- ance? Mr. Moore: It is allowed independent of mileage or time made on the trip. Mr. Phillips : I believe you are reading from a list there. Mr. Moore: Yes. Mr. Phillips: Are the- names of the roads repeated in the list you read? In other words, do they appear in the first list you read? Mr. Moore : Yes, they may appear in the first list, and they also appear under the division I have made covering arbitrary allowance. There are four repetitions in the list I have read. Mr. Phillips : Then ain I to understand that they pay for this additional service on the number of roads first read, and that they pay it as an arbitrary allowance on the number of roads last read? Mr. Moore: Yes. Mr. Phillips: Is that your statement? Mr. Moore: Yes. Mr. Phillips : The next is on page 218, Article 4, Switching Service. How many of the roads rejDresented in this arbitration have rules governing rates of pay and conditions of service of the firemen in yard or switching sei^ice? Mr. Moore : The schedules show there are 61 roads which have switch engine regiilations. Mr. Phillips: On how many of these roads is the ten-hour dav in effect? Mr. Moore: On 57. Mr. Phillips: Have any of the roads a day of more than ten hours, that is, longer than a ten hour day? Mr. Moore: One road, the Louisiana & Arkansas has a twelve hour day. Mr. Phillips: In yard service? Mr. Moore: Yes, sir. Mr. Phillips: Do the schedule rules disclose that any of the roads are paying road rates to firemen working in yard service when road engines are used ? Mr. Moore: Not in that identical language, but there are two roads which pay 40 cents per hour for — no, I don't believe I got that question. 123 Mr. Phillips: What I wish to bring out, Mr. Moore, is — the last part of Article 4 reads, if you will follow me, please: ''When road engines are used in yard service, road rates will apply." Now, do the rules on these roads indicate that such a rule is in effect on any of the roads in any of the yards of any of the companies? Mr. Moore: I have been unable to find any such rule in any of the schedules. Mr. Phillips: Do these roads have schedules containing a provision, in their schedules or working agreements with their yard men, that a meal hour will be allowed? Mr. Moore: Yes, sir, on a great many of the roads. To be exact, there are 58 roads in these negotiations whose sched- ules provide for time for meals. Mr. Phillips : That a meal hour will be allowed? Mr. Moore: Yes, sir. Mr. Phillips : That is practically all the roads in the move- ment, is it not ? Mr. Moore : All but three. Mr. Phillips: You have spoken of the majority of the roads once or twice, and you now say it would be all but three. I believe the statement has been made here that there are 98 roads included in this movement. Did you deal with them or, in compiling these rules in the different schedules, did you con- sider them as 98 separate roads? Mr. Moore : There are quite a good many schedules which cover three or four or five roads that are listed in the negotia- tions. Mr. Phillips: That is, the schedule for the firemen will cover a system under the parent name or the name of the main line and several subsidiary lines. Is that your understanding? Mr. Moore: Yes, sir. Mr. Phillips: And, while they might be known in the Railway Guide under several different names, under the sched- ules which govern the rates of pay and conditions of service of firemen, but one schedule would be found? Mr. Moore: Yes, sir. Mr. Phillips : You considered that one road, in making your compilation? Mr. Moore : I have, in compiling this book. 124 Mr. Phillips: Then, I understand, that practically all of these roads have a ten hour day for firemen in yard service? Mr. Moore: Yes. Mr. Phillips: And practically all of them grant a meal hour to the men? Mr. Moore: Yes, sir. Mr. Phillips : Are you prepared to state at about what time during- the day's service they are given an opportunity to eat their lunch or dinner or supper, as the case may be? Mr. Moore: I understand generally the sixth hour is al- lowed for the meal hour, the sixth hour from the beginning of the day's work. Mr. Phillips : You have included all the rules here so that that may be easily ascertained? Mr. Moore: Yes, sir. Mr. Phillips: Turn next to page 246, if you please. Ar- ticle 5, preparatory time. Under this article have you copied the rules from the Western railroads now paying preparatory time to firemen? Mr. Moore: Yes, sir. Mr. Phillips: How many roads have you found paying firemen preparatory time? Mr. Moore : According to the schedule, there are 17 roads which pay preparatory time to firemen. Mr. Phillips: Do any of these roads pay for preparatory time as an arbitrary allowance? Mr. Moore : There are four roads which pay for prepara- tory time as an arbitrary allowance, Mr. Phillips : I believe you said you had fired an engine some and run an engine a while? Mr. Moore: Yes, sir. Mr. Phillips: What do you understand by preparatoiy time? Has your experience enabled j^ou to state what may be understood from the term '' preparatory time"? Mr. Moore : From mv observation, I understand the term to apply to the time consumed by the engineer and fireman in making the necessary preparations for the trip, such as oiling around, and seeing that the work reported on the engine had been properly done, inspecting the engine to see that it was in proper shape for the road trip, inspecting the bulletin books and such 125 other requirements as may be made by tlie company ; they vary somewhat on different roads. Mr. Phillips: Does this require a fireman to be on duty some time before his day's work begins? Mr. Moore: Yes, sir, a fireman has to share with the en' gineer the responsibility for the tools. Ordinarily, at the re- quest of the engineer, he looks after the sand and the water, or any other duties that the engineer may require of him, in addi- tion to seeing that his fire is in proper shape for road service. Mr. Phillips : I believe you said a while ago that on some of these roads the tools were placed on the engine. If tools were placed on the engine before the engine was to leave the terminal, would the fireman still be required to make an inspection to learn whether or not the tools were in the proper place ? Mr. Moore: The schedules ordinarily provide that, w^hile the tools may be placed on the engine by the roundhouse force, the crew must be responsible for the fact that they are there. If they are not there, it is necessary for the fireman and en- gineer to see that they are placed on there. Mr. Phillips : The crew is held responsible for the engine being in proper condition to go outf Mr. Moore : It is their duty to see that everything is there ready to go out. The Chairman: From your observation and experience, what amount of time is required for this purpose? Mr. Moore: Well, generally speaking, I would say not less than thirty minutes. Mr. Byram: These 17 roads that pay jjreparatory time, do they pay it in the same way that it is allow^ed by the proposed Article 5, or is it restricted to a certain amount, generally? Mr. Moore : No, sir, there are only four roads which pay it as an arbitrary allowance. On the other roads it is computed in the day's work. Mr. Byram: Is it limited as to the amount, generally speaking, in these rules ; or is it unlimited, as proposed in the new ones ? Mr. Moore: I am of the opinion that some roads provide thirty minutes. Mr. Byram : Do you think many of them do, or just one or two ? There are seventeen altogether that pay it. How many of them allow it in a restricted wav — limit it to thirty minutes ? 126 Mr. Moore: I am not prepared to state tlie exact number. Mr. Byram: That is all. Mr. Pliillii)s: But you have all of the rules here so tliat it might be checked in a few minutes by reading the rules and making that check f Mr. Moore: Yes, sir. Mr. Phillips: Page 249 is the next article, I believe. Ar- ticle 6, Terminal Delay. How many roads pay for initial term- inal delay in passenger service, according to your check of the schedules ? Mr. Moore : There are 39 roads that pay for initial term- inal delay in passenger service. Mr. Phillips : How many pay for final terminal delay ? Mr. Moore: I find, according to the schedules, there are 34 roads which pay for final terminal delay, in passenger service. Mr. Phillips: Thirty-four pay for final terminal delay? Mr. Moore: Yes, sir. Mr. Phillips : How many roads pay for initial terminal delay, in freight service? Mr. Moore : The schedules show^ there are 43 roads paying for initial terminal delay in freight service. Mr. Phillips : And how many for final terminal delay in freight service? Mr. Moore: Thirty-three. Mr. Phillips: Forty-three pay for initial terminal delay and 33 pay for final terminal delay? Mr. Moore : Yes, sir. Mr. Phillips: Do the rules clearly indicate whether this compensation for terminal delay, either initial or final, is an arbitrary allowance or, whether it is computed as a part of their day's pay? Mr. Moore: On some roads it is impossible for me to de- termine wliether it is an arbitrary allowance or not. There are twelve roads, however, wliich particularly specify that the pay- ment is made for terminal delay, in addition to other time or mileage made. Mr. Pliillips : Do the rules provide, on any of these roads that engineers and firemen will be paid for these delays on a minute basis? Pardon me a moment, I speak of engineers and firemen. I would like to explain to the Board that, as a 127 rule, these provisions are identical, althougli the schedules are separate, — if they are not identical, they are very similar, and it would be almost safe to say that in every instance, they apply alike to engineers and firemen, I will modify my question to that extent. Are firemen paid for these delays on a minute basis ? Mr. Moore : The schedules show there are seven roads on which pay is made for terminal delay on the minute basis. However, these roads have different ways of computing the time. Some roads distinctly specify it shall be for the actual number of minutes delayed ; other roads, less than five minutes not counted; on still other roads, there is a clause specifying less than fifteen minutes will not be counted. Mr. Phillips : Now, let us turn to page 265, Article 7, Auto- matic Eelease and Tie-Up. I was pleased, if the Board will indulge me a moment, with the fear of one of the members as to the meaning of the term "Automatic". Possibly, he did not learn his lessons around a switchman's shanty like a lot of the rest of us did. "Automatic" is a term not necessarily used as possibly Webster or the Standard Dictionary would define the term, but, in general railroad service, I believe these rules will clearly show that a man, either a fireman or an engi- neer, completing a day's work, is released and his pay is^com- puted for that trip and, if again called he begins another day or another trip. I think the term "automatic release", possibly should be "pneumatic release". I think it originated with some timekeeper. I do not think it can be charged up to the firemen, at least, or to the engineers ; but the practice, it has been under- stood, is very general, not only on Western railroads but throughout the entire United States and Canada. Mr. Park : With you permission, Mr. Chairman, I want to correct Mr. Phillips, first on the proposition that I have not been around a switch shantv. I have been there for forty vears, and it is a new word. "Automatic" is a new word to me. 1 had this fear: — it is so near "autonomy" or self-government, that it might refer to discipline, and that the engineer or fire- man is going to leave his engine before he was permitted to leave it, as heretofore, and would not be available for further duty, under certain circumstances. Mr. Burgess set me right in that, that it is not intended to change the present conditions 128 in any way here, but, i still cannot see the use of the word "automatic". Mr. PhilUps : If I may be permitted to speak of engineers, for a moment, they have a little ajoplianee, always handled with their left hand. That does things automatically sometimes, and sometimes in other ways. The term "automatic", among rail- road men, usually applies to the automatic air brake. That is the general use of the term "automatic". We think of it in connection with the air brake more than anything else. Mr. Park: Mechanical. Mr. Phillips: It is mechanical and, while I am not a lin- guist, I fancy Mr. Webster would define it as self-acting, or something like that. I am sure it is not here intended for the purpose you fear. It was entirely proi)er to bring it out; no exception taken to that. (Addressing the witness) Have any roads a rule like this in their schedules ? Pardon me a moment, if I may interrupt, let me ask the question in another way : This is not an automatic rule ; it is a tie-up rule, which may require a little exertion. liave you produced all of the tie-up and re- lease rules from the schedules of the different roads, parties to this arbitration ? Yes, sir. : How many roads have rules of this char- Mr. Moore : Mr. Phillips acter? Mr. Moore : The schedules show there are 52 roads hav- ing release rules and tie-up rules. Mr. Phillips: Do any of the roads use the term "auto- matic?" Mr. Moore : There are two roads which use that term, the Great Northern and the Northern Pacific. Mr. Phillips : I believe I understood you to say you had never worked in that part of the country. Mr. Moore : No, sir. Mr. Phillij^s: Then you would not be prepared to state whether or not engineers and firemen were relieved in any dif- ferent manner on that road than they were on the Chicago, Mil- waukee & St. Paul or the Chicago & North Western, where the w^ord "automatic" is not included in their schedule? Mr. Moore : No, sir, I do not know. Mr. Phillips: The purpose of the rule, I trust, is made 129 clear. It is in order that it may end a day or the trip, and that compensation will be based upon that service. Tlie Chairman : I do not think we shall have any trouble about that point. Mr. Phillips : I wanted to relieve Mr. Park's mind. Mr. Park : Oh, I understand what it means. Mr. Phillips : Turn, now, please, to page 281, Article 8. ''Held away from Home Terminals." How many roads in this arbitration have rules granting pay to firemen for time held away from home terminals? Mr. Moore : There are 24 roads which grant pay to fire- men for being held away from home terminals. Most of these rules, however, cover the messengering of dead engines and trains! That is, handling the dead engines, being taken from one terminal to another in trains without steam! Mr. Phillips: How many roads, did you say? 24 roads. Are the rules in the schedules of these roads Mr. Moore: Mr. Phillips uniform ? Mr. Moore: Mr. Phillips No, sir; they vary. Do any of the roads have a rule like the rule here proposed. Article 8, or similar? Mr. Moore : At the bottom of page 281 will be found a rule somewhat similar. The Canadian Northern provides pay after the expiration of 18 hours. Mr. Phillips : The rule proposed to arbitration is different in what respect? Mr. Moore: of 18 hours. Mr. Sheean: too, does it not? Mr. Moore: Mr. Sheean: over? In one respect; it specifies 15 hours in place It pays nine in 24, instead of continuous time Beg pardon? It pays 9 hours pay for every 24 hours held Yes, sir. While the proposed one would pay continu- Mr. Moore: Mr. Phillips ous time? Mr. Moore: Mr. Phillips firemen acting as messengers on dead engines ; do you mean an That is another difference, yes, sir. These rules you refer to as referring to 130 engine not under steam, being towed in a train from one point to another? Mr. Moore : Yes, sir. Mr. Pliillips: And a man in charge — a fireman, for exam- ple, — wouhl be paid for his service as a messenger or as the man in charge of this engine and, then, if the engine were delivered at the point to which it was going or as far as the fireman in charge was ordered to take it, he would be paid for time held at that point, or if held at that point ? Mr. Moore : Yes, sir. The specifications however, differ on different railroads. Mr. Pliillips : Rules are very variant? Mr. Moore: Yes, sir. Mr. Phillips: Turn next to page 288, Article 9. ''Dead- heading. ' ' How many western roads parties to this movement have rules covering deadhead service for firemen? Mr. Moore : There are 53 roads having rules covering deadhead service. Mr. Phillips : Are any of them similar to the rule here proposed? Mr. Moore : I fail to find a rule that is exactly the same as the one proposed. Mr. Phillips : Well, not exactly the same, Mr. Moore, but they i^rovide a rate of pay for engineers and firemen when dead- heading on company business, or when under orders, as proposed by this rule. Mr. Moore : I do not believe there is a rule in the firemen's schedule of western railroads providing a through freight pay for firemen deadheading. Mr. Phillips: Have you produced the rules here? Mr. Moore : Yes, sir. Mr. Phillips : Would that refer to a fireman deadheading in both passenger service and freight service, provided he was deadlieaded on a freight train ? Mr. Moore : I understand they are both covered in the rule, yes, sir. Mr, Pliillii^s: I understood you to say that you did not Imow of a rule providing that a fireman should be paid a through freight rate of pay for deadheading. Do you know whether or 131 not that would apply to a fireman deadheading on a freight train on all of the railroads! Mr. Moore : There are a few roads in which the schedule provides for deadheading in passenger service on a passenger train or on a freight train, but, ordinarily, they are deadheaded on a passenger train, and the rate of i)ay covers that particular deadheaded service. I am not prepared to state how many roads have rules dividing deadheading as between passenger and freight service, however. Mr. Philli]3S: You have not made a check for that pur- pose? Mr. Moore: No, sir. Mr. Phillips : Is deadheading, from your personal exper- ience — if you have not had experience you may so state — but, from your personal experience as a railroad man, that is, as an engineer or fireman, is deadheading quite a common service? Mr. Moore: At certain periods of the year it is. When business is good it is ordinarily more common than during slack business. Mr. Phillips : The fluctuations of business would have an effect on the number of men deadheaded? Mr. Moore: Yes. Mr. Phillips : I do not suppose you know what proportion of men are deadheaded, or what proportion of the firemen's wages are earned in deadheading? Mr. Moore: It is a very small portion. Mr. Phillips: Turn next to page 300: ''Article X. Host- lers." If the Board please, I think we have reached about the point where we concluded yesterday. I do not think Article X has been read into the record. I ask that it be copied into the record to save me from reading it. The Chairman : It will be handed to the stenographer and made a part of the record. Article X is as follows: "Hostlers : At points where an average of six or more loco- motives are handled within twelve hours, day or night, hostlers shall be maintained. ''Positions, hotv filled: Hostling positions shall be filled from the ranks of the Firemen, and they shall be paid $3.35 per 132 (lay of ten hours or less ; provided, that where Hostlers are re- quired to make uiain-line movements, they shall be paid $4.75 per day of ten hours or less, overtime in each case to be computed on the minute basis and paid for at the rate of time and one- half. "AYhen such main-line or road Hostlers are paid the same rate as Elngineers in switcliiug service, such positions shall be filled from the ranks of the Engineers. ''Meal Hour. — Hostlers shall be allowed one hour for meals between the hours of 11:30 and 1:30, day or night. Hostlers will be assigned regular meal hour between the hours named or after being on duty five hours. Should hostlers be required to remain on duty after designated meal hour, one hour will be allowed as overtime. No hostler will be required to remain on duty longer than six hours without having one full hour for meals." Mr. Phillips: This article pertains to hostlers. Do you Imow what a hostler is? Mr. Moore : Usually speaking he is a man who handles an engine around the roundhouse, or handles light engines from the roundhouse to the points where they are placed on trains, or from the point of their arrival to the roundhouse. Mr. Phillips: Does the experience and training of a fire- man qualify him to act as a hostler? Mr. Moore: Yes. He gains the necessary experience by reason of his association with the engineer, and by reason of his work on the engine in the cajoacity of fireman. Mr. Phillips: Would you also understand that engineers would be qualified to act as hostlers? Mr. Moore: Yes. Mr. Phillips: Are hostlers taken from the ranks of fire- men frequently? Mr. Moore : They are, on quite a number of roads. Mr. Phillips : Have you prepared a list, and are you pre- pared to state on what number of roads the hostlers are taken from the ranks of the firemen? Mr. Moore: The schedules show that there are 18 roads on which hostlers are taken exclusively from the ranks of the firemen, and there are 12 additional roads where the hostlers are taken from the ranks of the engineers and firemen. 133 Mr. Phillips : Are the rules of the roads having schedules providing rates of pay or fixing the conditions of service of hostlers, reproduced here in the same manner as they have been for firemen? Mr. Moore: Yes. That is, the rules that are contained in the firemen's schedules are reproduced here, but not the rules that are contained in the engineers' schedules. Mr. Phillips : I understood you to say before that you have compiled here only the rules pertaining to the firemen and hostlers when made by the committee of the Brotherhood of Locomotive Firemen and Enginemen? Mr. Moore: Yes. Mr. Phillips : And, if they were made by the committees of the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers, even though they might apply to firemen, or to whoever might be engaged as hostlers, they would not be included in this compilation? Mr. Moore: No, sir. Mr. Phillips : You say that the rules on 12 roads provide that hostlers are taken from either engineers or firemen? Mr. Moore: Yes. Mr. Phillips : Do the rules on any of these roads indicate that hostlers are paid engineers' pay when required to handle trains on main tracks, or do switching of cars? Mr. Moore : Not in that exact lang-uage, but there are two roads on which hostlers are allowed 40 cents per hour for mak- ing main line movements, and there is one road which pays switch engineers' rates of pay to hostlers for handling and switching cars. Mr. Phillips : What road is that ? Mr. Moore : The Missouri, Oklahoma & Gulf, and the Mis- souri-Pacific-Iron Mountain allow 40 cents an hour for hostlers for main line movements, and the Texas & Pacific allows switch engineers' rates of pay for switching and handling cars. Mr. Phillips : Do the rules on any of these roads provide a meal hour for hostlers? Mr. Moore: The schedules show that there are 11 roads providing a meal hour for hostlers, on three of which overtime is allowed if the meal hour is worked. Mr. Phillips : How many of these roads have a ten hour day for hostlers ? 134 Mr. Moore: One road has a ten hour (hiv for hostlers — the Terminal Hailroad Association of St. Louis. Mr. Phillips: But one road in the movement has a ten hour day for hostlers ? Mr. Moore: Yes. Mr. Phillips : Please turn to page 314. Mr. Byram: May I ask you a question before you leave that? Mr. Phillips: Certainly. Mr. Byram: I did not hear the witness testify as to whether any of those roads had a provision similar to the first paraii-ra])li of Article X, specifying the number of engines that should be handled at a place where hostlers are maintained. Mr. Moore : So far as I know, there is onlv one road which has a rule at all similar to this, and that is the Missouri, Kan- sas ?<•i.1Tll1e' Chaimmn : That is wliat I am getting at. -- ]\[r. Phillips: That is the point I wish to bring out Mr. Park: Just as the army is drilled in times of peace, so they are ready to act in times of emergency. : Mr. Phillips: Well, from all I know about the army — and it is all I want to know — I don't think it is necessaiy to have target practice and a few of the other things they have in thie army, in drilling railroad men to l)e efficient and observe the rulSfe of safety first. Mr. Park : Well, I presume we will hear evidence on that. Mr. Phillips: We will be prepared to submit evidence on this point later. Mr. Xagel : But, in making these tests, Mr. Phillips, do you not employ the same signals that are used in case of actual danger? 'n:>'' ?; i;;~ : Mr. Phillips: Yes, sir, we do. But, if I may occupy the time, I may say that no engineer or fireman should ever find a switch turned wrong or the tail lights of a train before him, un- less he has distance in which to stop. He knows what to do if he has sufficient distance in which to bring his train to a stop. It is just like — you will pardon the comparison, I do not wish to make it in a reflective sense on railroad officials, but it is just as if a railroad company would wash out a bridge or a culvert on ia sharp curve and forbid the track walkers to go over that track, and allow the engineer to go there, knowing he could not see it within a hundred feet, and then wonder what he would do. It is absolutely certain he cannot stop, and everybody knows that to hang three red lights in front of a moving locomotive — of course, they are hung there long before the train approaches, or some time before the train approaches^everybody knows, if the engi- neer cannot see that phantom rear end of a train, that he will do everything he can to stop, but he cannot possibly stop. That is the thing to which we object. Now, I do not know how wide- spread it is, nor how general, but it should not be in effect at all. However, we will introduce testimony on the point later. Mr. Burgess : Mr. Phillips, the reading qualifies the objec- tion inasmuch as it states that "The practice of conducting sur- prise tests by turning switch lights and placing red lights or flags unaccompanied by torpedoes." I presume that qualifi- cation should- be explained to the Board. Mr. Phillips: If the Board ■ please, I take it if or ftranted that the rule would be read witli g^reiat care, and I ai^isure, wheti so read, it will be given the conisideration which we feel in fair- ness is due. ^^ ■ 0;^:'l iV:>^>h'idi v., i.-X . :jvi Mr. Burgess: Pardon me, Mr, Phillips. It coiOd be; as- sumed that there Avould be no obection to thesurprise test if, when the switch lights were turned, there was an indication given to the engineer by properly placing torpedoes and a system of flagging. ^ - 'M .; Mr. Phillips: You are correct in your assumption, in my opinion. I believe, I stated that the engineer and fireman did not like to find tail lights — I believe I used the term in ex- pressing myself — did not like to find tail lights with no targets out. Flags and torpedoes have a similar significance in rail- road uses and, if the warning signal is in place and the railroads wish to ascertain w^hether or not that engineer will observe the warning signal if placed at the proper distance and bring his train to a stop before the point of danger is reached, I think, no fair-minded engineer will object to such a test. It is a sur- l^rise test, and we wish to emphasize that particular term. And, referring once more to the army end of it, I do not wish to be .considered as treating the matter lightly, but our reason for objecting to a test of that kind is, that the army, so far as I am informed, does no use live targets. These targets are animated, and we do not think they should be so used. Article 12, page 315, the next page. Assistance for Fire- men. Article 12 is as follows: ['.Assistance for Firemen. On all locomotives and freight service where but one Fireman is employed, and on all locomo- tives in passenger service, coal will be kept where it can be reached by the Firemen from the deck of the locomotive. Coal of the proper size for firing purx)oses will be placed on all tenders. ' ' Mr. Moore, have any of the roads, party to this arbitration, rules providing that assistance will be given firemen in the Avay of getting down coal between terminals? Mr. Moore: Yes, there are three roads that provide that coal shall be shoveled down in passenger service between ter- minals. •^A • 4' . 'A * ♦'/^ 140 Mr. Phillips: Do any of the roads have rules providing that coal shall be taken (that is, an additional supply of coal placed on the locomotive) at points between terminals? Mr. Moore: There are thirteen roads which j)rovide that firemen shall have assistance in taking coal or getting coal down between terminals. Mr. Phillips: Assistance is given to firemen to that extent, then, you understand, by the rule? Mr. Moore: Yes, sir. Mr. Phillips: Does this apply to firemen in both freight and passenger service? Mr. Moore: The rules distinctly specify, on three rail- roads, that coal will be shoveled down for firemen in passenger service. Mr. Phillips: Do the schedules indicate whether or not any such assistance is given to firemen in freight service! Mr. Moore: I have been unable to find in the schedule where a rule is given for assistance to firemen. Mr. Phillips: How many roads have coal broken to proper size for firing puri)oses before being placed on tenders of loco- motives, according to the schedule rules? Mr. Moore: i^'orty roads. Mr. Phillips: Forty roads contain rules having provision that the coal will be broken to filing size before being ])laced on the locomotive? Mr. Moore: Yes, sir. ' '^ Mr. Phillips : Or before the fireman is compelled to put it in the firebox? i Mr. Moore: Yes, sir. Mr, Phillips: Does that apply to engines in both freight and i)assenger service? Mr. Moore: I presume so, but the schedule does not so indicate. Mr. Phillips: Turn next to page 322, Article 13. ''Two Firemen. ' ' Article 13 is as follows : "Two Firemen. On coal burning locomotives weighing 185,000 pounds or more on drivers, w^hen used in freight service, two firemen will be employed". 141 Have any roads, in this Western arbitration, such a rule in their schedules as is here proposed? Mr, Moore: No, sir. Mr. Phillips : Do any of the roads provide that additional firemen shall be used or put on the engines to relieve firemen? Mr. Moore: There is no schedule that provides that there shall be two firemen on the engine at the same time. The Great Northern, however, provides that firemen shall be relieved at an intermediate point on the run by another fireman. Mr. Phillips: What do you understand by that? Mr. Moore : I understand the necessitv for a rule of this character is that the service required by firemen is such they cannot fire an engine over an entire division. It is, therefore, necessary to relieve them at an intermediate point and secure fresh firemen. Mr. Phillips: Do you understand that the train crew and the engine crew run through from one terminal point to an- other? Mr. Moore : So far as I know. Mr. Phillips : I mean the engineer and the train crew? Mr. Moore : So far as I know they do, yes, sir. Mr. Phillips : And a relief fireman is provided at an inter- mediate point? Mr. Moore : Yes. Mr. Phillips : Then, they really have two firemen over that division? Mr. Moore : Yes, sir. Mr. Phillips : But not two on the engine at the same time ? Mr. Moore : That is my understanding. Mr. Phillips : What road is this, please? Mr. Moore : That is the Great Northern. Mr. Phillii)s : Have you included the rule here, in your book of compilations of schedule rules? Mr. Moore : Yes, sir. Mr. Phillips : Turn to the next page now, Mr. Moore. Page 323, ''Cleaning Locomotives, Article 14". Article 14, Paragraph 1, is as follows : ^^ Cleaning of Locomotives. On railroads where firemen are required to clean locomotives, they shall be relieved of such service". 142 On how many roads, parties to this arbitration, are firemen required to clean engines, all or any part? ''^-^ Mr. Moore: There are eight roads on which these sched- tiles either have no rule relieving firemen of cleaning engiwes or have rules partially relieving firemen of cleaning engirie^V'-'-J""' '^*'*Mr. Phillips: How many roads have rules by which^ fire- men are fully relieved of cleaning engines? --''-'^' Mr. Moore : There are fifty roads on which firemen are re- lieved of all cleaning of engines. Mr. Phillips : Do you say that of the eight roads having no such rule some have no rule at all. Mr. Moore: Yes. Mr. Phillips : How many of them have no rule at all in their schedules? Mr. j\roore : The Bellingham & Northern ; the Gulf & Inter- state; the Missouri, Oklahoma & Gulf; the Oregon Short Line, and the Texas & Gulf have no rule in their schedules. The Denver & Eio Grande ; the Duluth, South Shore & At- lantic ; Mineral Kange ; Kansas City Terminal, and Louisiana & Arkansas have rules which require firemen to do more or less cleaning. Miv Phillips: Well, on these roads having no rule, do you know whether firemen are required to clean engines? Mr. Moore : I do not. ' Mi*. Phillips: Are these rules, relieving firemen from all cleaning, uniform in their language? Mr. Moore: To a very large extent they are. On most roads, the rules read, in effect, "Firemen shall be relieved of all cleaning of engines." Mr. Pliilli]is: Turn now to page 330, please. Article XIV. Setting up wedges. Filling Grease Cups and Cleaning head- lights. Article XIV, Paragraph 2, is as follows : "Setting tip ivedges, filling grease cups and cleaning head- lights.. .Where Engineers and Firemen are required to set up wedges, fill grease cups or clean headlights, they shall be re- lieved of such service at all points where roundhouse, or, shop force, or an engine watchman is employed." Are firemen required to fill and care for headlights on any of the roads parties to this movement? us Mr../Moore: On a majority of the railroads the schedules for firemen have not referred to this, particular service. There are two roads,- the Great Northern, which specifies that firemen shall be relieved of this work at terminals, and the Minneapolis, St. Paul & Sault Ste. Marie, which specifies that firemen: shall be relieved of this work at points specified, but whether or not the firemen are relieved of this work on all the other rOads, I am not prepared to state, and it distinctly specifies in those two schedules where firemen are relieved of this work. Mr. Phillips : Is there anything in the rules indicating that firemen are required to fill grease cupsi ,, Mr. Moore : No, sir. I have been unable to find a rule that has any bearing on that subject. Mr. Phillips : Turn next to page 332. This article is also numbered 14. Is that a subdivision of the article appearing on the preceding page? Mr. Moore: Yes, sir. This article, as it appears in the proposition submitted, has been divided into different subjects, and the article listed under the different subjects. Mr. Phillips : On how many roads are rules found pro- viding that supplies will be placed on engines by shop force or roundhouse force or other employes besides the firemen? Article XIV, Paragraph 3, is as follows : '^Placing of Supplies on Locomotives. Where Engineers and Firemen are required to place on or remove tools or supplies from locomotives, fill lubricators, flange oilers, headlights, mark- ers or other lamps, they shall be relieved of such service at all points where roundhouse, shop force, or an engine watchman is employed. " Mr. Moore: On fifty railroads such rules are found. Mr. Phillips : Practically all of the roads in this move- ment ? Mr. Moore: Yes, sir. Mr. Phillips : Does that include all the trunk lines, the large systems'? Mr. Moore : Yes, sir, it includes all large roads, Mr. Phillips : Are the lubricators filled by the roundhouse force on any roads? 144 Mr. Moore: The schedules indicate that, on six railroads, the lubricators are filled by the roundhouse force. Mr. Phillips : Is there a specific schedule rule so- providing on those roads? Mr. Moore: Yes, sir. Mr. Phillips: The rule is here reproduced! Mr. Moore: Yes, sir. Mr. Phillips : Turn to page 341, Article 15, Official Record of Weights on Drivers. Article XV is as follows : "Official Record of Weights on Drivers. For the purpose of recording weights on drivers, each railroad, parties to this agreement, will permanently post bulletins at all terminals show- ing accurate service-weights of all locomotives." Have any of the firemen's schedules rules providing that the official weights of locomotives on drivers will be posted and made known? Mr. Moore : No, sir, no rule of that character. Mr. Phillips : If the request made herein, outlined specific- ally in Article 2, I believe, that rates of pay for engineers and firemen should be based upon weights upon drivers, would such a rule be necessary, in your judgment? Mr. Moore : I would think so, yes, sir. Mr. Phillips: The next page, please, 342; Article 16. Throwing Switches and Flagging. Article XVI is as follows : "Throwing Switches and Flagging. Engineers and Fire- men will not be required to throw switches, flag through blocks, or fill water cars." How many rules in the schedules for firemen, on these west- ern railroads, — or rather in the schedules for firemen for these western railroads, — in how many are rules found relieving fire- men from throwing switches? Mr. Moore : There are ten roads in the schedules for which are found rules relieving firemen from throwing switches. Mr. Phillips : Do any of the roads relieve firemen of flag- ging through blocks, as provided in this proposed rule? Mr. Moore : On one road, the Chicago & Alton ! 145 Mr. Phillips: On how many roads are firemen relieved of filling water cars? Mr. Moore : On one road, the Kansas City Southern. Mr. Phillips: Are water cars, from your knowledge, not from the schedules, used on very many railroads — I mean the auxiliary water car, or a tank car in addition to the tender of the engine? Mr. Moore: From my personal knowledge I know they are used quite a bit in the south, especially during the dry periods of the year. Mr. Phillips : Article 16 is the last article of the submis- sion to arbitration, is it not? * Mr. Moore: Yes, sir. Mr. Phillips : Now, turn to page 347. I understood you to say, at the outset, that you had grouped a number of rules under different headings or captions, for the purpose of ready reference or information of anyone concerned; is that correct? Mr, Moore: Yes, sir. Mr. Phillips : Have these rules anything to do with the ar- ticles submitted to arbitration? Mr. Moore : Nothing whatever. Mr. Phillips : Are they rules covering conditions of service, or other matters pertaining to the work of locomotive firemen that are not contained in the rules submitted to arbitration? Mr. Moore : Yes, sir. I have taken the articles of the sched- ules which do not come under tlie sixteen propositions, and grouped them under the remaining divisions as contained in this book. Mr. Phillips: I believe you explained earlier, Mr. Moore, where, from time to time, within brackets, may be seen figures, as at the end of this first paragraph, "p. 20," and at the last of that same article, " p. 7 and 8 ' ' — those refer to page numbers of the schedules from which these rules were taken? Mr. Moore : Yes, sir. Mr. Phillips: Wliat is the meaning of that ''39" with a symbol or asterisk within parentheses, at the top of the page ? Mr. Moore : That is a number which I used in designating the schedule articles which appear under this subject, called first in and first out. The number will also appear after the other subjects in the remaining part of this book, and simply 146 indicates that tlie scliedules from which this book was compiled, have the reproductions appearing under eaCh .of tlte subjects numbered, witii the number following the subject. Mr. Phillips: Has it any reference to the subject, matter? Mr. Moore : Nothing whatever. Only for my own con- venience. Mr. Phillips : If the Board please, it has been my purpose to endeavor to bring out the fundamental points in the volume, as they apply to the articles submitted to arbitration. Now, I would ask to inflict ujDon you, if I may use the term, the knowledge that all of these rules are found herein, and may be readily referred to, and we hope that that may be of some assistance to you. That is all. The Chairman : You may cross-examine the witness. Mr. Sheehan : May I remain seated ? The Chairman : If you prefer to do so. It is customary in my country for counsel to remain seated while examining the witnesses, and we will make it the custom here, for the time being. Mr. Sheehan: The use of these books will be a little more convenient for me. CROSS EXAMINATION. Mr. Sheehan : Mr. Moore, I understood j^ou to say, upon di- rect examination, that there were fifteen roads having a five hour day in the western territory. Will you enumerate what fifteen roads you had in mind in making that statement? Mr. Moore: If my recollection is correct, I specified that there were fifteen roads which have a five hour day or better, or twenty mile speed basis per hour or better. Those roads, as I have them listed, are the Denver & Rio Grande; the El Paso & Southwestern System ; the Houston & Texas Central ; the Hous- ton East & West Texas; the Illinois Central; the Kansas City Southern; the Missouri & North Arkansas; the Missouri, Kan- sas & Texas; the St. Louis & San Francisco; the St. Louis, Brownsville & Mexico; the San Antonio & Aransas Pass; Southern Pacific, Atlantic System; Southern System, Pacific System; Wabash, and the Wichita Valley. Mr. Sheean : The Illinois Central schedule is shown at page 27 of your tabulation. Will you kindly state which one of the i4r provisions appearing at page 27 makes that a five hour day in passenger service ? 'y^-- Mr. Moore: I beg your pardon, but that is a list of r'oat'ds Covering those which have a five hour day or better, or twenty miles per hour speed basis or better. No, I beg your pardon. I have got the wrong one. The second paragraph provides ** Overtime in passenger service will be computed on a basis of twenty miles and paid at the rate of 10 miles per hour. ' ' That is a speed basis of twenty miles per hour. Mr. Sheean: On a passenger run of 140 miles, at what time would overtime begin? Mr. Phillips: If the Board please, I do not wish in any way to interfere with cross-examination. I believe, however^ this witness has only qualified so far as to vouch for the accuracy or the correctness of these rules, as they are reproduced from the different schedules. The rule here is reproduced exactly as is appears in the schedule of the railroad, and I doubt if the witness is qualified to answer all such questions. In fact, gentle- men, I doubt if anybody could answer all such questions. I am sure he can answer this question. The reason I rise at this time, is to call your attention to the fact that this witness is not qualified to pass upon the meaning, interpretation or application of these rules. I have no objection to his answering this question. • a< « .*-i- Mr. Sheean: My only purpose, if the Board ple*a^eig, was this and this alone : the witness, as I understood his testimony, grouped a certain number of roads as having a five hour day basis, or a rule similar, if you please, to the request here. I wanted to ascertain from him how close that similarity was with these different rules, or why he grouped a certain number of roads under the heading of a five hour day, or twenty mile per hottr speed basis, in the computation of overtime. Of course, if Jtlie: witness was called only for the purpose of verifying the correctness of these printed rules, and no attention was to be paid to his classification as to how many roads fall under the five hour day, or eight hour day, or any other day, I assume I would not have the right to cross-examine. It was only upon the groupings that he had made, I desired to ask a few questions. Mr. Phillips : As I stated, if the Board j^leases, I have no objection to the witness answering this question. It is one of the 148 simplest questions that ever comes before railroad men, engi- neers or firemen. The only thing to which I wanted to call attention was that this w^itness is not qualified as a schedule expert, or a man prepared to interpret either the schedules or rules he has reproduced, or the articles submitted to arbitration. He has compiled the articles submitted to arbitration into a volume, including there all the articles from the various sched- ules bearing upon the same subject, for the purposes of com- parison. I will be very glad to have the witness answer this question, as I have said. The Chairman : Any question that is calculated to test the extent of the knowledge of the witness as respects any testimony that he may have given, of course would be competent. The witness may state the extent to which he has qualified himself. Mr. Moore: "Will you state the question again, please! Mr. ISheean: Kather than go back, will you turn to the provision in the Illinois Central schedule to which you referred — on a 40 mile passenger run. At what time would overtime begin 1 Mr. Moore: Not being familiar with the application of the rule, I would say, oifhand, from my understanding of its reading, that overtime would begin with the expiration of the seventh hour. Mr. Slieean: And, if a man had a 160 mile passenger run, at what time would the computation of overtime begin? Mr. Moore: I would sav, in the same manner as I did before, that overtime would begin with the expiration of the eighth hour. Mr. Sheean : And, under this rule all additional time would be paid for at the rate of 10 miles per hour? Mr. Moore : That is my understanding of the rule, yes, sir. Mr. Sheean : Now, is there, Mr. Moore, in any of the sched- ules to which vou have referred and which you have tabulated here, a rule as broad as Paragraph 1, of Article 1, applying to all classes of passenger service, whether suburban, turnarouiul, branch or through. Mr. Moore: There are a number of roads which have a rule specifying that five hours or less- Mr. Sheean (Interrupting) : In all classes of passenger ser^^ce ? 149 Mr. Moore: (Continuing) — Will constitute a day, in regular passenger service, and some of the schedules have a separate rule providing for irregular or extra passenger service, and some of the schedules also have an entirely separate rule pro- viding for suburban service and short turn-around service ; but, I am not prepared to state the exact number of schedules which have those rules. Mr. Sheean : Can you tell me any road that has a schedule provision that makes no exception or separate provision for branch, turn-around and suburban, and that does apply this paragraph to all passenger service? Mr. Moore : I cannot state there is such a schedule. r Mr. Sheean : Are you not quite sure that there is no such schedule that, without exception as to turn-around or branch service, makes universally applicable, as this request does, this basis to all passenger service? Mr. Moore: Of course, I have not made a study of this work with a view to determining just what each rule means or how it is applied; but, so far as I recollect, in the work neces- sary for the reproduction of these articles under the separate headings, I have been unable to find a rule that is similar to this rule and applicable to all classes of passenger service. Mr. Sheean : This makes no exception for suburban ? Mr. Moore : In the reading of it, it does not. Mr. Sheean: Or, for turn-around? Mr. Moore: There is no exception. Mr. Sheean: Or, for branch line service? Mr. Moore: No, sir, not in ihe rule. Mr. Sheean: Or, for any series of short runs ? Mr. Moore : No, sir, not in the rule. Mr. Sheean: Now, as to the payment of overtime in that same rule, '^ overtime in passenger service will be computed and paid for on a basis of 20 miles per hour, at rate for each class of engine used." Have you found any schedule in your search that applies that method of paying overtime to all classes of passenger service, making no exception for turn-around, suburban or branch line ? Mr. Moore: There are a few roads on which overtime is figured on the basis of 20 miles per hour and paid for pro rata; 150 but I do not recollect of any road whidi has that provision for all classes of passeni^er service. Mr. Sheean: So that, when you spoke of there being in the schedules provisions similar to these, you meant that .sched- ules generally provide for the basis of a day's work for some rate of overtime, and for the method and manner of computing that overtime ? ■ ^ Mr. Moore: I just mentioned the roads as I found them in the schedules which had a five hour day or better, or, rather, a provision for a five hour day or better, or 20 miles per hour or better, for passenger service. Mr. Sheean: But, Mr. Moore, as I understood you, there was no schedule that you examined that made such a i)rovisioai applicable to all classes of service, on any line? Mr. Moore: Xo, I do not recall any schedule. The fact of the matter is I did not investigate that point. There are, as I have stated, schedules that have a provision for the payment of overtime in passenger service, as stated. Mr. Sheean: But, not applicable to all of the passenger service of that road? Mr. Moore: No, sir. I have stated that, I believe. Mr. Sheean: You did observe, did you not, Mr. Moore, that exceptions were made to cover turn-arounds, usually of a cer- tain length or designated or otherwise. Mr. ]Sroore: Yes. I noticed that in reproducing the arti- cles, but, not to the extent that I could designate the roads on which those exceptions are made. Mr. Sheean: I did not mean you had classified them, but you did find general recognition of the principle that on short turn-around runs the schedules of the different roads should make jn-ovision covering that kind of service. Mr. Moore: I am not prepared to state that it was a general proposition. There are, however, some schedules with exceptions; but, as stated^ I do not know how many. I would not say it was a general proposition. Mr. Sheean: Well, you would say that it was a general proposition that there were exceptions made to the application of a rule at all similar to the rule that is incorporated here, w^ould you not, or I guess you have said it as ' ' universal. 5 ) 151 ]\lr. Moore: So far as I know, there is no schedule that has a rule identical with the one proposed. Mr, Sheean: Mr. Moore, tinnini*' to Article 2, at pag-e 64, I understood yon to say that there were seventeen roads on whicli the hasis of pay was made some specified Aveight on drivers, and (jnite a large nnm])er of the seventeen, I believe, yon included because of the fact that, on locomotives above a weight of 215,000 pounds, a certain rate should be paid. How many roads were included in that class in which the only refer- ence to weight on drivers was a single reference to locomotives weighing more than 215,000 ])ounds on drivers? Ml. Moore: Well, my imrpose in jn-eparing this list was to show the roads which had additional classifications on whicli the basis of pay was fixed on weight on drivers, to that covered by tlie arbitration award for firemen in 1910. I believe, how- ever, 1 stated that of the seventeen roads named, there were perhaps four or five of them whicli were on a cylinder basis, that is, which had the rates of pay fixed on a cylinder basis or some other Isasis and the weight on diivers was given on the geneial classificalicn of locomotives in some ]iart of the schedule. Mr. Sheean: Even though the weight on drivers, on that particular road, may come within tliis classification, it would not necessarily follow that the split as to rates was the same in that schedule as it is here. Mr. Moore: My understanding of the proposition is that, on those roads where they have the weight on drivers only in the classification as a rate of pay, the article in the schedule fixes the rates of pay either upon a cylinder basis or u])on some other basis rather than weights on drivers. I think there are foui' or five roads of the seventeen that T mentioned which ha\t' pay provided in that manner. Mr, Sheean: Well, Mr. ^Moore, is there any road which makes the number of divisions as to weights on drivers which is iiii'or])orated in this request and makes a different rate of PM\ IjMsed on such a classification? Mr. Moore: I do not believe there is. ]\Ir. Sheean : AVliat is the highest number of breaks or lines of demarcation in rates on any road, in existing schedules, in which the rates are based on weights on drivers? 152 Mr. Moore: The SoiitlitM-ii Pacilic — Pacilie System, I be- lieve, has tlie lari^'est number of classilications in wliich rates of pay are lixed n])on weiglit on drivers; bnt the liighest num])er wliich 1 liave listed liere is eig'ht, for tlie Atchison, To])eka iV: Santa Fe — Coast Lines. That is, there are eight different rates of ])ay l)ased on weights on drivers, provided in the schedule. 1 am (|uite sure, however, tliat the Southern Pacific — Pacific Sys- tem lias a larger number than that. Mr. Slieean : Have you found any road on which the rates of pay se])arate or divide at tlie weights on drivei-s wliich are indicated in this schedule? Mr. Moore: I did not investigate that feature. Mr. Sheean: So all you meant as to Article 2, as to your comparison, was that you found recognition of the ])rinciple of weights on drivers being a ])roper basis on which at some iioint to make some division of rates ? Mr. Moore: 1 would not |)ut it exactly in that wa.w 1 just simply intended to re])roduce that i^art of each schedule which provides pay for weight on drivers, for one or more classifica- tions. That was my sole purjiose. Mr. Sheean: I do not think we disagree, Mr. Mooi-e. T mean you made no comi)arison to ascertain whether at the })oint of 2()0,()()() pounds' weight on drivers there was recognition that that locomotive should take a different rate from one which weighed 199,000 on drivers? Mr. Moore: No, sir, 1 did not investigate that. Mr. Sheean: As to where the dividing ]ioint should \u\ or what the division should he, you made no comparison? Mr. Moore: Xo, sir, none whatever. jMr. Sheean: And your deduction was sim])ly that weight on drivers was a ])i'()i)er basis to be considered in connection witli the change of rates? Mr. Moore: Well, 1 cannot say that T made any deduction. The fact is, I b.-nl notiiing along that line. I have just simply re])roduced the articles as they appear. My sole inirpose in ])re- paring this exhibit was simply to grou]) under each of these articles the schedule of rules exactly as they ai)])eai- in tlie sche- dule. That was my sole ]mr])ose. Mr. Sheean: T understand that as to the grouping: but T understood vour testiiiiouv in connection with that was that vou nQ 15 found a certain niunlier wliieli based their rates on weights on drivers. Mr. Moore : Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean: But, whether that basing was made on the basis here made, you did not consider? Mr. Moore : No, sir, I did not investigate that. Mr. Sheean : In speaking about the part of Article 2, which is set out at page 105, I understood you to refer to circus trains and breaking in engines, and snow plow service as falling under the head of ''other unclassiiied service" appearing in this pro- posed rule. If you find specified schedule provisions covering circus trains, snow plow service, and breaking in engines, is that still unclassified service? Mr. Moore : I would consider it so, in connection with this rule, because it is not specified in this rule. Mr. Sheean: Then, notwithstanding specific schedule pro- visions as to circus train or breaking in engines, it was intended that this rule should replace all those specific rules in the schedule ? M. Moore : That was the impression I had w^hen I compiled this book, but, whether I am correct in that impression or not, I would not like to state; but, I took the rule and, of course, prepared the reproductions in accord with my understanding of the rule, without being advised as to w^hat each rule meant. I understood that the purpose of the rule was to provide through freight rates pay for the w^ork specified in the rule and in addi- tion to the work specified in the rule, for other classes of service which were not specified in the rule, which could be considered in connection with the freight movement. Mr. Sheean: It was just in connection with those words ''all other unclassified service" that I wanted to inquire what might be your reason for including certain classes of work al- ready covered by schedule provisions ? Mr. Moore : I am under the impression that it includes everything not specified in the rules — circus trains, and breaking in engines, and things of that character. Mr. Sheean: Then, certain things could just as well be added to that enumeration if it was intended that thev should take other rates, and not leave blind what was covered by the general terms ' ' other unclassified service ' ' ? 154 Mr, Moore: T find that, in reiiroduciiig the articles for this table, there was no exact comparison in the schedules as to the different classes of service covered. Some schedules would have an article providing for breaking in engines. Perhaps another schedule would not have that article. Some schedule would have an article providing for circus train sei'\dce, and most schedules did have an article of that kind but there are a few that did not have an article of that kind and, from that, I gained the im- pression tliat this rule was to cover all of those lands of service, and the clause "all other unclassified service" was placed in there for that purpose. Mr. Shoean : Then, in the detail shown under that rule, you have assembled the rules which cover circus trains and break- ing in engines f Mr. Moore: Yes. ' ■ Mr. Sheean: And messenger service? Mr. Moore : Yes. Mr. Sheean : As to another part of that same rule I was not quite clear as to your deduction. I think it was at page 164. The rule there set out is : "On all divisions where grade is 1.8 per cent or over an in- crease of 10 per cent over valley rates will be paid. " I understood you to say you had found a similar rule in the Great Northern schedule. Was it the Great Northern? Mr. Moore: Yes. Mr. Sheean: The Great Northern schedule seems to be set out at page 171. Mr. Moore: Yes. Mr. Sheean : And is it the part at the bottom of page 171 which you consider similar to the provision of this request ? Mr. Moore: Yes, it has the same provision upon which tho increased comijensation is based, 1.8 per cent. Mr. Sheean: But only for the actual distance covered by such grades — that is in the Great Northern rule? Mr. Moore: Yes. Mr. Sheean: Whereas, your icquest is, on all divisions where the grade is 1.8 per cent or over, this ten \)vv cent in- crease shall be paid? Mr. Moore: Yes. 155 Mr. Slieoaii : Do you know, as a matter of fact, whether or not on the Great Northern Railway there is any place at which this rate is paid, other than between the points named in that paragraph at the bottom of page 171! Mr. Moore : No, sir, I have no knowledge of the applica- tion of the rule. Mr. Sheean: You know nothing al)out that! Mr. Moore : No, sir. Mr. Sheean : I believe you said there were differentials of one or another kind provided for in the schedules of eleven of these roads. Have you made any comparison or tabulation as to how many of the roads involved operate in mountain ter- ritory ! Mr. Moore : No, sir, only just from what I know generally of the geographical lay of the country. Mr. Sheean: Are there any roads operating in moun- tain territory that do not make some ])rovision in keeping with the situation on each particular line, for taking care of the situation that may exist on that particular line? Mr. Moore : I am not prepared to state. Mr. Sheean : In some cases there were allowances in miles ? Mr. Moore: Yes. Mr. Sheean : The great majority of the schedules, however, have certain specified runs enumerated in the schedule, have they not, as to which a through freight rate is paid or a freight mileage allowance made! Mr. Moore: Yes. In quite a number of rules reproduced here they have that kind of a provision. Mr. Sheean : Specifically setting out the points between which tlie rates shall carry or the allowances shall be made! Mr. Moore: Yes. There are some of the rules here that have that provision. Mr. Sheean: But you have made no effort to ascertain just what the facts were on any one of those particular runs, and why a certain particular number of constructive miles was allowed in the one case, or whether there was any similarity be- tween the conditions on the two lines! Mr. Moore : No, sir, I have simply reproduced the article, that is all. Mr. Sheean : And the only effort to express in a geograph- 156 ical relatioiisliip the grades that you have found in any schedule is this Great Northern scliedule, which provides for the applica- tion of that rate for the actual distance covered by such grades 1 Mr. Moore : That is the only schedule that is anything at all like tlu^ rule requested. Mr. Sheean : Or anything which attempts to state any per- centage relationship between a named grade and a named rate or percentage of a rate? Mr. Moore: So far as I know, it is the only rule. Mr. Sheean: At page 177, is the narrow gauge provision. I think, however, you said, as to the application of the other rules, the automatic release, tie-up, initial and final terminal delay, and all that, as to its applicability to narrow gauge — Mr. Moore : I do not know whether it applies to that service or not. Mr. Sheean: As to whether this five per cent increase covers only rates, or whether all the other things were applica- ble to narrow gauge service, you know nothing? Mr. Moore: I made nothing of the application of the schedule. Mr. Sheean : Are all the definitions which you found — definitions of local and way freight — set forth in the sunmiaries following page 182? Mr. Moore: Yes. Mr. Sheean: AVhen you spoke of there being a differential allowed or provided in schedules, you simply meant that there was some differential, not a percentage differential? Mr. Moore: No, sir, quite a number of roads have a 25 cent higher rate of pay for local freight service than for through freight service. Some, however, have a lesser or smaller differ- ence than that, and others a greater difference than that. Mr. Sheean: I believe you said the nearest to the defini- tion which you proposed was found in the schedule of the Chi- cago & North Western and the Chicago Great AVestern? Mr. Moore: Well, I do not know as it is the nearest. I read the rule for the Chicago Sz North Western and the Chicago Great Western because they were handy to the article. There are five other roads, however, which give a rule that I did not read and that appears in the text matter reproduced under this article. 157 Mr, Slieean: Is there any one which gives the definition which you now propose? Mr. Moore: I do not think there is any tliat gives the exact reproduction of the article we are requesting. Mr. Sheean: Do you know of any road which defines or attempts to define way freight that does not have specifically stated, in connection with the definition, that such definition shall not be construed to apply to through freight trains set- ting out or picking' up carloads or handling small lots? Mr. Moore: I am under the impression that each of the definitions given has a qualifying clause. Mr. Slieean: And substantially in the form that I have given? Mr. Moore : Somewhat similar to that, yes, sir. Mr. Sheean: -Well, substantially in the form given in the definition of the Chicago & North Western and of the Chicago Great Western t.o which you refer? Something similar to that? Mr. Moore: I would not like to state positively that that is a fact, because I do not just recall the reading of the rule under the other roads. Mr. Sheean : In connection with the part of Article 3 which is set out at page 201, Mr. Moore, I think you said that you found no rule in this language in any schedule. Mr. Moore: I do not believe that any schedule contains a rule exactly like the one requested. Mr. Sheean : Well, is there any rule in any schedule which even exactly or remotely resembles the provision that you have in this request: "Unless cars to be picked up are first out, or cars to be set out are switched together at terminals," extra pay . shall be given therefor. Mr, Moore : That term is used in one or more of the sched- ules, but then I cannot just tell you just what schedule it is. I recollect, though, very vividly having noticed that particular term in one or more of the schedules — I cannot say the exact number. Mr. Sheean: I think you enumerated as among the roads which made some allowance for this kind of work, the Chicago, Burlington & Quincy, for instance. Its rule is set out at page 203. Is the third paragraph of that rule of the Chicago, Burling- ton & Quincy, on page 203, the rule which you considered a rule similar to this request? 158 Mr. .Mooro: Xo. I would consider the first paragraph com- ing under that because of the provision: "When way-freights are annulled and through freights are re(|uired to do way freight work, such as unloading freight at stations and doing station switching other than ])icking up and setting out cars, the fireman will be paid way freight rate." That would provide additional compensation. The second paragraph, liowever, would seem to me — I am not prei)ared to state what is meant there by full time, whether it is full freight time or full way freight. I do not know the application of the rule. Mr. Slieean: The third paragraph specilically j)rovides, however, does it not, that all such work as that may be made use of by the company, in older to give an ecpiivaleiit for the ten hour service which it is required to ))ay for.' Mr. Moore: Yes, si)-. Mr. Sheeaii: Does this rule contem])late, or even make [tos- sible, — this recpiest that is })resented here, — utilizing any of this work for the i)urpose of receiving ten hours' work for ten hours' pay ? Mr. Moore: The last paragrai)li distinctl.x" specifies, "When ordered to do construction oi- wrecking work in the course of a trip, full lime will be imid by the Ikuu' for such work"? Mr. Sheean : Where was that f Mr. Moore: The last paragra])li under the reproduction. Mr. Sheean: Oh, the Chicago, Burlington & (^uincy Rule? ^\v. Moore: Yes, sii*. the last ])aragra])h there under the Chicago, Burlington c^ (j)uincy |)r()vides that "When t)idered to do construction or wrecking woi k in the course of a trip, full time will be i)aid by the hour for such work." Mr. Sheean: Do xou hap])en to know what the wi-ecking rule of the Burlington Koad is? !Mr. Moore: T do not know, exce])t as it a))i)('ars right here. Mr. Sheean: Or their work train rules? Mr. Moore: So far as T know, this is the onl> work train rule they have. Mr. Sheean: Well, Mr. Moore, is there — you misunder- stood my last question — is there anything in this ])art of Article 3, which is set out at page 201, which eithei- contem])lates or permits that the Company shall have the same ])rivilege which J59 is contained in the Ihiid i»ai'agia])li of this Biirlin,i>toii Rule, viz.: that wlien work of this sort, added to other woi'k, makes neither 100 miles nor U) lioiirs, the Company shall have the rij>'ht to use that time in Hllinii' out the 10 liours for whieli it pays? Mr. Moore: Well, it is possible, T supi)ose, under this rule — while I don't know tlie application of it — that there be no ])ayment for this time until after ten hours' service has been rendered on a trip; but, certainly, in the event of a tri]t con- suming 10 hours, or 100 miles, they would be allowed extra compensation or be allowed the through freight I'ate for the service specified here. Mr. Sheean: Well, but does not youi" rule specifically provide that this shall be paid for at the same rate, be paid for at overtime rates in addition to the time or the mileage made on tho trip? Mr. Moore: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean: So that, no matter what the time or the mile- age may be, this must in all cases be added to it, must it not? Mr. Moore : Under the rule requested. Mr. Sheean: Under the rule requested? Mr. Moore: I would judge so. Mr. Sheean: And your overtime rate in freight service is time and a half, is it not? Mr. Moore: The overtime rate requested, yes, sir. Mr. Sheean: So that, if tJiis request were granted, for work of this character at any station, when done by a through or irregular freight train, you would be paying one and a half times what would be ]jaid if it were done l)y a regular train ? Mr. Moore: Well, as to that 1 could not state, because [ do not know. Mr. Sheean: Well, you do know that this provides for paying it overtime, and that another part of the schedule pro- vides time and a half. Mr. Moore: Yes, but I do not understand the api)lica- tion of the request under an overtime feature in connection with paragraph 3. As stated, my connection with the prepara- tion of this work was simi)ly to produce the stated articles as they appear and, of course, in doing so T took what 1 would in- fer from the ])lain and obvious reading of the rule, any rule 160 that had reference to the particular request contained in the second part of Article 3. Mr. Sheean : Mr. Moore, in the part of the request set out at page 218, in your enumeration of roads now having a ten hour day on switching service, did you find any road which pays ten hours for nine and a half hours' service in existing sched- ules ! Mr. Moore : Practically all railroads provide that ten hours or loss shall constitute a day's work. Mr. Sheean : And they also ])rovide for the meal hour be- ing granted, and, if the full hour be taken, it shall be without pay when they are released at noon? Mr. Moore: At the regular specified time? Mr. Sheean: At the regular specified time. Mr, Moore: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean : Well, this rule says ten hours from the time the man reports for work, less one-half hour, which must be allowed him, ten hours' pay accrues. Mr. Moore : I understand the rule to be to that effect. Mr. Sheean : Well, is there any schedule in force in the ter- ritory now which j^rovides for ten hours for nine and a half hours' service, or which provides — put it the other way — for paying ten hours for a continuous service, of which one-half hour shall be taken for the meal hour? Mr. Moore : There are two schedules which are indistinct, so far as I have been able to determine. That is, there are two roads which provide for only a twenty minute meal hour. Now, I don't know whether that time is calculated continuously or not. T could not determine from the schedule. The B. & O., Chicago Terminal and the Chicago & Western Indiana, have a rule only to provide 20 minutes for meals. It is possible on these two roads the time may be computed continuously, but I could not determine that fact from reading from the schedules. ]\lr. Sheean: But, aside from those, unless those make pro- visions or the practice under them does give that, you know of no practice such as is required here on any western road as shown by its schedule? Mr. Moore : No, sir, I do not know of a schedule that pro- vides for continuous time. Mr. Sheean : Do you know of any schedule in switching that ])rovides for ]iay for weight based on drivers ? 161 I\ii-. ^,Iooi-e: So far as I know, the rates of pay are gen- erally fixed for the class of yard in which the engine is used. Mr. Sheean: Well, do you know of any schedule, or did you tind any schedule at all in which they based the rates in yard service on the weight on drivers ? Mr. Moore: There are several schedules — I cannot state just the exact number — that provide for a higher rate of pay than is the usual practice in a yard, but I am unable to recall whether that is based upon the fact that the rate of pay is on weights on drivers or not. The fact of the matter is, I did not make an investigation along that line. Mr. Sheean: Did you find any schedule— provision in which there is a different rate of pay between night and day crews ? Mr. Moore: No, sir, there is no schedule distinguishing to that effect for firemen, Mr. Sheean : And no practice, so far as you know, in this entire territory? Mr. Moore: Not for firemen. Mr. Sheean: Or, for engineers? AVell, you examined only the firemen's schedules? Mr. Moore: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean: At page 246, Mr. Moore, ''Preparatory Time," this rule. Article 5. If this request becomes a rule, is there any kind of service, of either an engineer or fireman, in which a road by any kind of operation could avoid paying for ten and a half hours, at least, any time he goes to work? Mr. Moore: My understanding of the rule would be that they would be allowed thirty minutes in addition to the minimum day of ten hours. Mr. Sheean : So that, there is no possible way of operation in which the railroads could escape paying at least ten and a half hours to every man every time he went to work? Mr. Phillips : Now, if the Board please, I do not wish to curtail the cross-examination, but I doubt the competency of this witness to answer questions of that character. He has stated that he does not — Mr. Sheean: Well, is there any dispute about that? Mr. Phillips : I do not know that there is. Mr, Sheean : Do you know of any way by which any rail- 162 road can escape ])aying at least ten and a half lionrs on every (lav's service, toi^etlier with the initial and tinal terminal delavf Mr. Phillips : 1 am perfectly willing to take the witness stand, if counsel for tlie i-ailroad desires to subpoena ine, and answer that question. Mr. Sheean: I do not want to examine about matters that are not in dispute. It is merely to determine whether or not that is the case. Mr. Phillips: Gentlemen of the Commission, we will intro- duce plenty of competent witnesses to enable all of this informa- tion to be brought out. It is not our desire, let us assure you, to curtail this cross-examination, but, as has been stated, this witness has made a compilation for the purpose of reference. We are very glad that he shall make as full an exi)lanation as he is qualilied to make, but he cannot, I do not believe, interpret the meaning of the rules in these schedules or rules that have been submitted to arbitration, and I doubt if very many gentle- men pi'esent can, even the men who work under tliein or the men who administer them. Mr. Sheean: Mr. Phillips, do I understand you to say that }()ii will put some one on ■ Mr. Phillips: Oh, yes, indeed, we shall have witnesses. Mr. Sheean: To interpret the meaning of each of these rules ? Mr. Phillii)s: Yes. I will say this: the deplorable condi- tion in which Mr. Cadle found himself today prevented him from continuing his testimony. Had he remained on the stand, we hoped he would cover all this examination. It was neces- sary for us to substitute this witness in an emergency, and, as I stated, he is not prepared to pass upon the bearing of these rill-'-- Mr. Sheean: That is entirely satisfactory to me. I just wanted a question or two to know why he grouped certain roads under certain headings and, under the assurance of the rei)re- sentatives of the men, that someone will be placed on the stand as to what their interpretation of a particular part of the re- quest may be, I won't press that at all with this witness. On that preparatory time, though, Mr. Moore, I wanted to know the names of the two roads on which you found an arbi- trary allowance? 163 Mr. Moore: If my recollection is correct, I specified the four roads. Mr. Slieean: Four roads? Mr. Moore : Yes, sir. Mr. Slieean: AVhat were tliey! Mr. Moore : The Canadian Northern ; the Canadian Pa- cific ; the Dnlnth, AVinnipeg & Pacific ; the Esquimalt & Nanaimo. Mr. Sheean : LXihith, Winnipeg & Pacific has been treated as a part of the Canadian Northern, has it? Mr. Moore : That may be a fact, but then we have separate schedules for the two parts. Mr. Sheean : And the Esquimalt & Nanaimo is i)art of the Canadian Paci fie, is it .not 1 Mr. Moore : That may be so, too, but we have separate schedules for the two pro]ierties, and, of course, I have used the four schedules. Mr. Sheean: Will those two make an arbitrary allowance of thirty minutes, those four, whether it be two or four? Mr. Moore : They make an arbitrary allowance of thirty minutes ves, sir. Mr. Sheean: Are those the only ones on which you found an arlntrary allowance of thirty minutes, in addition to the time or miles of the road? Mr. Moore : Those are the only ones which I have found. Mr. Sheean: Now, turning to i)age 333, Mr. Moore, are those the same roads which specifically require in their sched- ules, among the duties of firemen, that the fireman shall fill torches and oil feeders, fill lubricators at terminals, fill all lamps and care for all lamps other than headlamps, and blow out same on arrival at terminal, unless otherwise directed? Mr. Moore: Pardon me; what i^age are you on? Mr. Sheean : Page 333. Strike out the question. The same roads which provide for an arbitrary of thirty minutes to be added to the time or miles of the trip, enumerate, do they not, as shown at page 333, various and sundry duties required of the firemen on those lines, which are not required oil any other lines? Mr. Moore: Some of the schedules under Article 5. "Pre- paratory Time," do not specify what the requirements of the firemen are. Mr. Sheean: No, but Mr. Moore, the only two roads or the 164 only four roads which give this arbitrary of thirty minutes, are the ones you have enumerated, I believe. Mr. Moore: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean: Those are the same roads which enumerate, at page 333, a great many duties from which roads generally have exempted firemen! Mr. ]Moore: Yes, sir, I notice on page 333 that certain duties are required of firemen which perhaps on some roads they are not required to perform. Mr. Sheean: Well, is it not true that the schedules spe- cifically provide that they shall be required to perform these duties on nearly all the other roads? Mr. ]\Ioore: They are required to perform some of these duties on a great many of the roads. For instance, there are only a comparatively few roads which relieve firemen from filling lubricators. Mr. Sheean: How many require firemen to fill torches and oil feeders — in the States? Mr. Moore: I do not recall any schedule that as a rule relieves firemen of performing that service. There may be a few schedules, but very few. Mr. Sheean: Do you know of any practice where it is re- quired ? Mr. Moore: I know of no practices on any railroad, except the one from which I ,come, and, on that road, we fill torches and we fill lubricators also and the oil cans, and we receive no preparatory time. Mr. Sheean: Did you do anv of the other things that are enumerated in the duties of firemen? Mr. Moore: We had to take in our flags and put them out, when they were used. Mr. Sheean: Did you fill the lamps? Mr. Moore: We had electric lights. Mr. Sheean: No lamps at all to care for? Mr. Moore: No, sir. Mr. Sheean: Any markers? Mr. Moore: No, sir; usually they had incandescent lights, no markers. Mr. Sheean: Never ran down there at all with auytliing except incandescent markers, while you were in service? 165 Mr. Moore: Most of the States down in that i)art of the country have a law requiring electric headlights, and the com- panies have equipped the cabs with electric lights and the markers. Mr. Sheean: At page 322, Mr. Moore, with reference to the request for two firemen, is there any provision in the Great Northern schedule, as set forth here, which is applicable to any- thing other than Mallet engines? What I mean is, is the only provision that is made in the Great Northern schedules one pertaining to Mallets? Mr. Moore: The rule provides that firemen on hand fired coal burning Mallet engines — and, while I don't know the strict application of it, I would infer that it a])])lies only to Mallet en gin OS Mr. 8heean: A¥ell, all that I meant, Mr, Moore, was, whether or not there was any provision other than the one lim- ited to hand fired Mallets? Mr. Moore : This is the only provision I find in the sched- ules. Mr. Sheean: Do you know how many hand fired Mallets they have there? Mr. Moore : I have no knowledge. Mr. Sheean : Hand fired coal burners, I mean, of course. When you said, Mr. Moore, that some rule similar to the one set out at page 341, with reference to official record of weights on drivers, was in your judgment necessary, I assume you meant some satisfactory means, whether by bulletin or otherwise, so that the men might have information as to the weights as re- corded? Mr. Moore : Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean : .And not necessarily limiting it to the bulletin, if some other method was advised or agreed upon as necessar^^ or agreeable? Mr. Moore : It would be necessary for the men to have the information requested. Mr. Sheean : And when you said that you thought this pro- vision necessary, all that you meant was that you had in mind some provision that would advise the men; not necessarily the exact provision here or the exact language of this iDrovision? Mr. Moore : Well, I would naturallv confine that belief to Kin till* reatliiiu of tlit' article, l)et'aust' it ajipears to iiic that tiiat would he tilt' siinplost way of conveying the information to the men. Mr. Slieean : Mr. Moore, at page 2S], if you will turn there for just a moment, that is Article 8, ''Held away from home terminal." Vou have, have you not, incorporated under that heading, or .summarized here, the provisions of the schedule which have any bearing on that x^artieular matter, even though they he not s})ecifically limited to being held away from home terminals :' Mr. Moore: Yes, sir, I have incorporated every article which jirovides in any manner, payment for being held away from home terminals. Mr. Sheean : Now, how many did yon say were a|)[)lical)le (mly for messenger service or getting an engine? Mr. Moore: I did not state the number of roads, in which the rule distinctly refers to messenger service, but, the majority of the roads I named have rules referring to messenger service; 1 might say solely to messenger service. Mr. Sheean : How many of them solely to messenger serv- ice ' Mr. jMoore : There are four of the roads of the 24 that I mentioned, on which the articles ref<'r to service in general and there are — Mr. Sheean: What four are those? Mr. Moore: Those are the Canadian Northern; the Mis- souri, Oklahoma & (julf, the St. Louis & San Francisco, and the Ti'inity & Brazos Valley. ]\lr. Sheean: Well, the Canadian Northern provides, does it not, for ])aying simply one day out of each 24 hour period after the lapse of 18 hours? Mr. Moore : Yes, but it applies — it does not limit the appli- cation of the rule, as I would understand from its plain and obvious meaning, but it applies to any character of service. Mr. Sheean : Now, is there any road which makes provision for the payment of contiuous time ? Mr. Moore : Well, I cannot state positively, but, I am under the impression that all the roads that I named, have a pro- vision for the payment of one day for each 24 hours held, or some limitation similar to that. Mr. Sheean : The messenger man under this rule, together 1G7 with tlie five hour day rule, would be paid for five days in each 24 hour period, would he? Mr. Moore : I am not prepared to state what the appli- cation — Mr. Slieean : He would be paid continuously, and, if his day were a five hour thiy, he would get as many days as there was time five hours he was held there? Mr. Moore : Well, I hadn't thought of that. Mr. Slieean: Well, you don't find in any schedule of any railroad any provision for paying continuous time, do you, such as I have proposed? Mr. Moore : Not that I recall. Mr. Sheean: And the nearest to it is the Canadian Nor- thern which, after 18 hours, will pay 9 hours out of each suc- ceeding 24, they having a 9 hour day up there. They pay one day out of 24 (hours) ? Mr. Moore : I think that is the way the rules generally read. Mr. Sheean : I think that is all. REDIRECT EXAMINATION. Mr. Phillips : I believe counsel for the railroads asked you if there were any roads having a five hour rule for firemen in passenger service, or a five hour day; all classes of passen- ger service. Would you please turn to the Houston & Texas Central Railroad on page 26. It reads : "Whenever the time consumed on any passenger trip aver- ages less than 22 miles per hour, 22 miles per hour w^ill be the basis for comx^uting overtime, thirty minutes to be counted one hour, less than thirty minutes not to be counted; overtime pro- rata." Would you understand that w^ould apply to all passenger service on the Houston & Texas Central Railroad? Mr. Moore: I understand that it would apply to all pas- senger service there for the reason that there are no exceptions made. Mr. Phillips : The Houston, East & West Texas, on the next page, first paragraph, near the top, reading in nearly the same language. Would you understand that would applj' in like manner? 168 Mr. Moore: Yes, sir, I understaiul that \voiild apply in like manner, for the reason I see that no exceptions have been made to the rule. Mr. Phillips: San Antonio «& Aransas Pass, on page 45, reads : ''The basis of a day's work in passenger service will be 100 miles or less, five honrs or less." Is that generally applicable to the system from the read- ing of the schedule rules? Mr, Moore: I would judge so, although I am not famil- iar with the application of the rule. Mr. Phillips : Well, on page 32, Missouri & North Arkan- sas: ''100 miles or less will constitute a day (in passenger serv- ice). Overtime will be allowed on basis of 20 miles per hour and paid for at one-tenth of the daily rate for each hour earned. ' ' Do you find anything in the other rules there which would make any other rate for passenger service or any other basis for a day's pay in passenger service? Mr. Moore : Not unless the turn-around proposition about the middle of that reproduction refers to passenger service. Mr. Sheean: "Turn-around runs," beginning there, do you mean? Mr. Moore: Yes; I don't know if that would be an ex- ception to the rule or not. Mr. Pliillips: Is any time specified for the turn-around run? Mr. Moore: No time specified, but there is a specification for two trips, two runs. Mr. Pliillips: Well, without attempting to examine you as a schedule expert, if two trips aggregated 100 miles, and five hours Avere consumed, would you understand that consti- tuted a day under this rule? Mr. Moore: Yes, sir. Mr. Phillips : I believe counsel also asked you if any roads were paying overtime at the rate of twenty miles per hour or anv other rate than one-tenth of the dailv rate. Mr. Moore : Yes, sir. Mr. Phillips: Turn again, please, to page 26, Houston & 169 Texas Central Eailroad, the same rule before read, concliKling with the words providing for twenty-two miles per hour as the basis for computing overtime, overtime pro rata. Would 3'OU understand that overtime would be allowed at the rate of twen- ty-two miles per hours Mr. Moore : That is mj^ understanding of the term. Mr. Phillips: And, if similar provision appears in other rules, you would understand where the term ^'pro rata" is used and the train made twenty miles an hour for the first five hours, the basic trip, that they would receive the same for overtime? Mr. Moore: Yes, the pro rata rate. Mr. Phillips : You asked if there were any roads which had as m.any splits on the weights on drivers basis as appear in this article submitted to arbitration. Have any of the roads as many splits or different classifications of pay on any other basis or different bases? Mr. Moore: I did not make any investigation along that line. If mv recollection is correct, I stated that I was under the impression that the Southern Pacific, Pacific System, had \X\y proposition in switching service, isn't it? Mr. Cadle: The time and a half is new, but an increase over the daily rate is not new. Mr. Sheean: Well, the time and a half Mr. Cadle: What I mean by that, now, so you will under- stand it, if I am working ten hours a day and my hourly rate is 35 cents, there are schedules where the overtime rate would be more than 35 cents per hour; that is, you increase the over- time rate. Mr. Sheean: Just what schedule do you know of that makes an hourly rate? Mr. Cadle: I am speaking about the hourly rate for over- time, where the 15 per cent would apply. Mr. Sheean: Well, in arriving at the hourly rate you sim- 243 ply carry back the daily rate, do you, and reduce that to the hourly rate, yourself? Mr. Cadle: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean : And by the way, Mr. Cadle, in that same con- nection, the hourly rates. You spoke the other day of there being in the east, in passenger service, a twenty-mile an hour basis of overtime. Under that rule, overtime is paid at the fixed rate of 50 cents an hour, isn't it? Mr. Cadle: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean: And you do not have, either in the east or anywhere, a provision in the exact form of your request, for pas- senger service, here? Mr. Cadle: A fixed rate? Mr. Sheean : The exact form of the request which you have made here. Mr. Cadle : You have got a fixed rate in — do you mean pro rata? Mr. Sheean : No. The form of your request as to the pas- senger service, what shall constitute a day and what shall be paid, how overtime shall be computed and paid, all considered together. Mr. Cadle : Let me see what it does say. Mr. Sheean: Preparatory time, initial and final terminal delay, they are all parts of the day's work, aren't they? Mr. Cadle : Yes, sir, under this proposition. Mr. Sheean: And there isn't any schedule that you know of that has all of the things in it that you have here, either as to passenger or freight — that is, I mean the number of miles, the number of hours, the rate as to overtime, the arbitrary prepara- tory time, the initial and final terminal delay — no one schedule that you know of has in it all of the provisions on those topics which are contained in this request? Mr. Cadle : Yes, I think I can find you a schedule of that kind. Mr. Sheean: But you cannot name it now? Mr. Cadle : I can pick one out here, though, I think. Mr. Sheean : Well, if you can, I would be very glad to have it. If you cannot do it readily I would be very glad to have you furnish it at any time during the conference here, in which either the freight or passenger has the same provision as to length of 244 day, the same arbitrary for preparatory time, the same initial and final terminal delay that is contained in this request. Mr. Cadle; Well, supposing it was on an eight-hour basis instead of ten hours ? Mr. Sheean: Not if it had the others in it, no. Any one you can find which has a combination as favorable, Mr. Cadle, I will put it that broad, a combination on those topics in any one schedule which contains all of these provisions or anything equally favorable, in a single schedule. This switching rule, Mr. CadJe — is there any provision in any schedule now which makes the ten hours of switching service continuous, from the time that they go to work until they are relieved, and pays entirely for the meal hourf Mr. Cadle : I understand the Baltimore & Ohio, yes, sir. Mr. Sheean: The Baltimore & Ohio Chicago Terminal? Mr. Cadle: No, the Baltimore & Ohio proper. I don't know whether they have got that in the Terminal or not. Mr. Sheean : Pay for ten hours for nine and a half hours actually at work? Mr. Cadle : Yes, sir. And I might say the Delaware, Lack- awanna & Western. I made a schedule there where they pay them continuous. Mr. Sheean: Now, Mr. Cadle, when you outlined here on direct examination the necessity for having a reasonable dinner hour provision, it is a fact, is it not, that at the present time all of the schedules of the roads, or if not in the schedule, the practice upon all of the roads in this movement is to make pro- vision for a dinner hour? Mr. Cadle: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean: And in that respect there isn't any difference between the actual time given, in respect to furnishing time to eat, between your proposal, and the practice of the railroads; your proposal simply requiring pay for that, but not changing the practice itself? Mr. Cadle: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean: And there is nothing about your proposal here that would tend in any way to bring about any change in the operating practice ? Mr. Cadle: No, sir. Mr. Sheean : It is quite important, is it, Mr. Cadle, that the provisions as to the time when the men of the switching crew same. Mr. Sheean : Mr. Cadle : Mr. Sheean : Mr. Cadle : 245 eat should be the same in the schedule of both the trainmen, and the engineers and firemen? Mr. Cadle: No, sir. The engineers and firemen — Oh, yes. I thought you meant the engineers and yardmen. Mr. Sheean: Yes, I do mean the engineers and yardmen. What I mean, Mr. Cadle, is this, that on a single road, taking any one of the roads in the movement here, it is important that the hour provided when the engineer and firemen shall have their meal hour should be the same as the members of the crew that work with them during the day? Mr. Cadle: Well, it should be the same, but it is not the It should be the same? But it is not the same. No? I would like to explain, if you please. You take a yard man, when his dinner hour comes, he is turned in for dinner, all he has to do is to take his coat and go and get his dinner, while that engineer has got to take that engine to some designated track, to some point where it is taken care of, either taken care of by a hostler, who cleans the fire and gives them coal, and they do that while the engineer is not working. The engineer may be released at twelve o 'clock in the yard and the yard man goes out at twelve o'clock to dinner, but the engi- neer has got to fight his way to some given track and he perhaps won't be off duty for thirty minutes after the yard man has been released, therefore, it becomes necessary to make a rule different for a locomotive engineer's meal hour than for a yard man. They are not both alike. Mr. Sheean : I did not mean to get into any discussion as to whether the engineer and fireman needed a longer time, a longer spread, more time off duty, but all I meant was simply whether the rule should make provision whereby the crew which works with that engine is off duty during the same period. Mr. Cadle: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean: And that is important in operation, is it not? Mr. Cadle: Yes. Mr. Sheean: You know, of course, that the meal hours are generally covered by schedule provisions? Mr. Cadle: Yes. 246 Mr. Sheean: Both for the yard man and for the engineers and firemen f Mr. Cadle: Yes. Mr. Sheean: They have been agreed upon generally, fixing hours varying, from 11 :30 to 1, or between 11 :30 and half past one, or between 12 and 2, to meet conditions at different places ? Mr. Cadle: Yes. Mr. Sheean : And those are now in vogue upon the differ- ent roads? Mr. Cadle: Yes. Mr. Sheean : As a result of negotiations to meet conditions local to the different roads'? Mr. Cadle: Yes. Mr. Sheean : Mr. Cadle, this rule as proposed here would change the practice on all the roads where the men have a right to take a full one hour at noon for their meal if they desire, without pay, and if the work was done in just the same way in those yards as it is now, they would have to pay for one hour at the overtime rate of time and one-half? Mr. Cadle: Yes, and give their crews a part of that hour to get their meals. Mr. Sheean : That is, a man going to work at 7 in the morn- ing, having from 12 to 1, to have his meal, and going to work again from 1 to 6 in the afternoon, would be paid overtime at the rate of time and one-half? Mr. Cadle: Yes. Mr. Sheean : Do you know of any road, either in the East or West, where there is any differential now between night and day rates for engineers and firemen in the yards? Mr. Cadle: No, sir. Mr. Sheean: In that rule also occurs the word ''undis- turbed" for meals. The usual provision of schedules so far as I have seen them, is to allow thirty minutes, or forty-five min- utes, or whatever it may be, for meals? Mr. Cadle: Yes. Mr. Sheean: This expression ''undisturbed," for meals, is also a new word in schedule making, is it not? Mr. Cadle: Yes. Mr. Sheean: It is a new word? 247 Mr. Cadle : It is a new word to me. Mr. Sheean : It is a new word to you? Mr. Cadle : Yes. Mr. Sheean: And like all other new words in schedule making, you have to have interpretations and adjudications as to just what if anything is accomplished by puttting this word in there that has not been in past schedules? Mr. Cadle: Yes. Mr. Sheean : To your personal observation, what difficulty has there been about any meal hour interpretation and the rights of the parties under meal hour rules as they now exist? Mr. Cadle : I do not know as there has been a great deal of complaint about the meal hour in recent years. Mr. Sheean : In the last three years ? Mr. Cadle : Of course vou know that little differences will arise in the best regulated families in our country? Mr. Sheean: Absolutely. Mr. Cadle: And the engineers who are doing this switch- ing are not an exception to the rule ; and every one of those m.en has a schedule, and he has got his own interpretation of it, and there are questions that will arise; but all of the railroads, as a general proposition, have got a rule fixed for their dinner hour, so that the men can go and get their meals. Mr. Sheean : But you do not know of any of them that have this word ''undisturbed" in their rules? Mr. Cadle : No, I do not. Mr. Sheean: And I suppose you are not sufficiently prophetic to say just how that will be interpreted? Mr. Cadle: Well, if I was working under that rule, if it was adopted, and a fellow would come over and call me, or want me to go to work, if they adopted that rule I would expect the company to give me sixty minutes for dinner. Mr. Stone: Thirty. Mr. Cadle: Well, thirty minutes undisturbed meal hour. Mr. Sheean: What does the word "undisturbed" put into this rule that is not in the present practice? Mr. Cadle: I think right now there are times when you do not get your thirty minutes that are due you, and there are times when you may get more than thirty minutes. I think the need of the rule is to make it positive that a man will be given thirty minutes for meals. 248 Mr. Sheean : In that same article there is a provision that when road engines are used in yard service, road rates will apply. Does that contemplate that when a road engine is con- verted to switching purposes, by providing both front and rear headlight, and footboard both forward and rear, nevertheless the road rate shall apply to that engine while it is thus used in the vard. Mr. Cadle: That was not my understanding of the rule when the rule was formulated to cover that class of service. The intent of the rule was that where road engines came in on their runs, and where a yard engine might be out of commis- sion, — there might be some repairs to be made — and they used the road engine as a substitute for the yard engine — if they did that, there would be a differential. Mr. Sheean: Do you know whether or not that intention which you had in drafting the rule is still the intention of the proponents of this rule? Mr. Cadle: I could not tell you. Mr. Sheean: Did you participate in any of the conferences? Mr. Cadle: Oh, yes. Mr. Sheean: Do you remember whether or not that ques- tion was asked as to the application of that particular rule to the situation to which I have referred ? Mr. Cadle: It is possible that it was asked, but I do not remember any conclusion or definition being made. Mr, Sheean: But it is not your understanding now that it is intended to apply that to a converted road engine used reg- ularly in switching service, or used temporarily in switching service ? Mr. Cadle: If it is used temporarily, yes, it is my under- standing that the differential would apply. Mr. Sheean: Even though front and rear footboards and front and rear headlights were provided ? Mr. Cadle: Yes. Mr. Sheean: Just what limit of time would you place on what was a temporary and what a permanent use of such an engine? Mr. Cadle: One day would in my mind be considered tem- porary. 249 Mr. Sheean: And how about a week's use of such an engine ? Mr. Cadle: I would not call it a temporary job then. If you are looking for a dividing line, why, it would seem as though it might be well to establish some given time. Mr. Sheean: It would prevent the converting of a road engine into a switch engine by putting running boards or foot- boards and front and rear headlights on it, and regularly mak- ing use of that in the yard. Mr. Cadle: No, it would not prevent that. Mr. Sheean : You would have to continue to pay road rates on it under this proposal? Mr. Cadle: No, there is a differential of these schedules, of twenty-five cents. Mr. Sheean : Well, the part 1 was talking about, Mr. Cadle, was, when road engines are used in yard ser^dce road rates will apply. Mr. Cadle: Yes. Mr. Sheean: Now, my question was directed to the con- verting a road engine in the manner I have described, into a switch engine and using it in a yard. Would the road rates which would be applicable to that engine if used on the road, apply during all the time it was in the yard? Mr. Cadle: I think it was the intent — it is my judgment that it was the intent of the rule when it was formulated, that the rates should apply to all road engines when used in switch- ing service. Mr. Sheean: Well, Mr. Cadle, I am still not clear as to whether or not that rule would permit a road converting a road engine into a switch engine by putting footboards and front and rear headlights, to pay only switch rates for it, or whether they would continue to pay road rates on such an engine ? Mr. Cadle : The way that rule is written, I do not see how you can interpret it any other way. Mr. Sheean : Than that we would have to pay road rates on all converted engines? Mr. Cadle: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean: Whether temporary, permanent or other- wise? Mr. Cadle, Yes, sir. 250 Mr. Slieean : And whether with front and rear headlights and also front and rear footboards? Mr. Cadle: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean: The only road, so far as your analysis has shown, on which there is any such provision in the schedule, is that of the Chicago, Milwaukee & St. Paul, is it not? Mr. Cadle: I do not remember now. Yes, the Chicago, Milwaukee & Puget Sound pay through freight rates. Mr. Sheean: Well, that is the only one. Mr. Cadle : That is the only one that I can recall. Mr. Sheean: Mr. Cadle, you said the other day that in the eastern territory they awarded us a 25 cent differential on road engines used in yards? Mr. Cadle: Twenty-five cents. Mr. Sheean: A^^ien a road engine was used in the yard? Are you not in error about that ? I think you were talking, Mr. Cadle, about a differential between local way freights and through freights. But, was the question of road engines used in yards even before the arbitrators in the East? Mr. Cadle: No, I do not think it was. Mr. Sheean: I just wanted, in fairness to you, to correct that part of your testimony. Mr. Cadle: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean: You answered the other day, and I thought inadvertently, that in the eastern territory they awarded us that twenty-five cent differential where road engines were used in the yard. That is an error, is it not? Mr. Cadle : Yes. It was west. Mr. Sheean: Under Article 5, about Preparatory Time — The Chairman: Just a minute, Mr. Sheean. One of the Board would like to ask some questions. Mr. Burgess : Mr. Cadle, in reference to the last question of Mr. Sheean, was it not the southeast rate you were referring to, about the differential being made there of twenty-five cents more when road engines were used in switching service, instead of the East ? I think he referred to the southeast, Mr. Sheean. Mr. Sheean : I think the question was about the southeast, and he answered, the Eastern Award. There was no award in the southeast, so far as I know. Mr. Stone 's question was as to the common meaning in the southeast, and he answered as to 251 that. In the eastern territory they awarded us that twenty-five cent differential. I do not know of any award anywhere that gives us any differential. Mr. Burgess: No, but I thought he was referring to the condition in the southeast country. Mr. Sheean : There was the question as to conditions, but Mr. Cadle's answer was that in the eastern territory they awarded us that twenty-five cent differential, and I did not know of any award anywhere, southeast, east or elsewhere. Mr. Burgess: I think you are right on the award, Mr. Sheean, but as long as you want to correct it, I think you should correct it right. I think he was referring to the southeast coun- try, where there is a general practice, without being an award, that the road should pay twenty-five cents additional. Mr. Sheean : The question of Mr. Stone was as to practice in the southeast, and the answer was that they awarded it in the east. Mr. Cadle: That was an error. It was the southeast. I know there are quite a number of railroads in the south- east where they have got a differential of 25 cents. Mr. Sheean: A differential over the regular switching rate? Mr. Oadlo: Yes. Mr. Sheean: On a day, that is. As to the preparatory time, Article 5, does this proposal, as submitted, contemplate that where a switch engine is double-crewed, that each of these crews shall receive preparatory time I Mr. Cadle: Yes, sir, I think that rule contemplates that. Mr. Sheean: That is, an engine on switching service, which the day man takes charge of at 7 o'clock in the morning, and turns over — assuming that he is relieved at noon, has a couple of hours or an hour at noon, assuming that he turns it over at 7 o'clock in the evening direct to the other engineer, each of those men will receive an arbitrary of half an hour, in addition to the time that they worked ? Mr. Cadle: Yes. Well, you take a double-crewed yard engine, where they are working 24 hours, there is some time in each twelve hours' period that there has got to be some repairs or some supplies put on that engine. Now, the reason that we ask to have that rule apply there, the engineer has got to pre- 252 pare that engine some time during his twelve hours, and while he might not make those repairs when he went on duty, he might get right on the engine. Mr. Sheean: What repairs do you refer to that are done now by any engineer? Mr. Cadle: Well, you have got to get sand; you have got to get coal; you have got to get water; you have got to get fuel and lubricators. You know each engineer has got his own share of oil. He has got to use that during his trip. He has got to make repairs. He has got to do work on that engine Mr, Sheean: On what road does the engineer get the sand and get the water? Mr. Cadle: Why, a great many of them; a great many railroads. You are speaking about double-crewed switch en- gines now, you understand. Mr. Sheean: Where they both work the full twelve hours. You were limiting your statement about repairs that they did to the case of a double-crewed switch engine? Mr. Cadle: Yes. Mr. Sheean: And on twelve hour shifts? Mr. Cadle: Yes. Mr. Sheean: Well, no matter how they did it, Mr. Cadle, on those two twelve hour shifts each of the crews would have to be paid thirty minutes in addition to the full twelve hours? Mr. Cadle: Yes. Mr. Sheean: So that, no matter what part of the time was given to this preparation, or how you divided up the work between them, there would have to be an arbitrary half hour given to each crew ? Mr. Cadle: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean: And in the case of — if any of the roads in the West got sufficiently prosperous to have three crews, as they do in some of the busy roads in the East, each of the engi- neers would get eight and a half hours ? Mr. Cadle: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean: There is no escape from that preparatory time as to the turning over of the engine from one engineer to another, that is arbitrary, is it not? Mr. Cadle: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean: In all cases? 253 Mr. Cadle: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean: Now, I think you said the other day that preparatory time had originally been intended, or was intended to cover the payment for all the time that a man actually worked? Mr. Cadle: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean: And if the roads propose to put in effect — any road which pays the engineer all his time from the time he is required to report for duty until he is finally released from duty, that is a fair rule, is it not ? Mr. Cadle : It is, where it does not interfere with your one hundred miles or less. Mr. Sheean : I am not talking about any particular way in which you get at it, Mr. Cadle, but a rule which does pay the engineer and fireman for all of his time from the time he is re- quired to report until he is finally released, is a fair rule. Mr. Cadle : In my example, or in my presentation of that the other day, it was in regard to computing any time on the minute basis: I stated that there was no good reason why I should work thirty minutes for a railroad company for nothing. Mr. Sheean: Well, you stated at the same time there was no good reason why the railroad should pay you for thirty minutes that you did not work, Mr. Cadle? Mr. Cadle : Yes. Mr. Sheean: You are still of that mind, are vou? Mr. Cadle : I am still of that mind so far as computing the time of an engineer on a minute basis, because it will pay him for all of the time that he works, and he will give the company full sixty minutes of his service for an hour's overtime. That is the proposition that I was talking on the other day. I always believed that was fair, and I still believe it is fair. Mr. Sheean: "Without the detail of any particular rule, Mr. Cadle, if provision is made whereby the engineer is paid for all of his time from the time he is required to report for duty until he is finally released, such a rule would be a fair rule. Mr. Cadle : It would not be a fair rule under the one hun- dred miles or less, ten hours or less. That would dispose of the rule entirely, if you established a rule of that kind. Mr. Sheean : Well, Mr. Cadle, do you wish to be understood 254 as taking the position that the engineer or fireman should be paid for more than the time that he is on duty? Mr. Cadle : It may amount to more in miles than it does in time that he is on duty, and why should he not be paid for it 1 Mr. Sheean: Giving him the option always to take either time or miles, whichever yields him the greater pay? Mr. Cadle: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean : But, if he is assured full pay for every min- ute from the time he is required to report for duty until finally released, is not that rule, or a rule which does guarantee him pajonent for every minute, a fair rule ? Mr. Cadle : It would be a departure from the principle of computing an engineer's time entirely. From the inception of your first agreement, that would be a departure, because we say, ''One hundred miles or less, ten hours or less, shall con- stitute a day's work." Now, you can take in your railroads in the western country, or any iDart of this country, and an engineer earns — the greatest portion of his time was allowed on the mileage basis. Now then, whenever you go to work and I have got a contract with you to draw a freight train one hundred miles or less, ten hours or less, for a certain amount of money, when I draw that freight train that one hundred miles, I might do it in ten hours or I might do it in two hours. If I do it in two hours I give you the full one hundred miles, and whenever you put any work on me that will interrupt my chances of mak- ing money by making miles, then you reduce my earning capacity. Mr. Sheean : If a schedule makes provision, Mr. Cadle, for paying for every minute of a man's time from the time he re- ports for duty until he is relieved, and also gives him a guarantee to pay him for every mile that he runs, no matter what the time may be, guaranteeing both payment for the time he makes and letting him elect whichever will yield him the greater pay, is he fairly compensated? I am not talking about what rates should be applied. Mr. Cadle : He is not compensated under the rules we are working under. It would not be a fair rule, because it would destroy the rules you have been building up for thirty years, that an engineer has been drawing these different times to make up a month's pay. Mr. Sheean : I was not talking, Mr. Cadle, about what rate 255 should be applicable to any minute or to any part of the trip : but if a rule is provided whereby a man is fairly and adequately paid for every minute from the time he is required to report for duty until he is finallj^ released, if such a rule is a fair rule, without splitting into segments different parts of his work, Mr. Cadle : It is a fair rule yes, if you don 't split it up. Mr. Sheean: Now, it is the practice, is it not, Mr. Cadle — has been generally the practice and is now generally the practice, that the engineer and firemen take their engines at the round- house at the time of the beginning of their run, and usually de- liver it at some designated place at the completion of the run? Mr. Cadle : Yes. Mr. Sheean : And as a part of the day's work that has been in vogue all these years, it includes ordinarily all the work that he has done from the time that he goes to work until he delivers his engine on this designated track at the end. Mr. Cadle: No, you do not find the schedules that way. Mr. Sheean: Well, his work, Mr. Cadle, is all comprised within that period? Mr. Cadle : The great majority of the railroads in the west- ern country are not paying anything to an engineer for prepara- tory time. They call him to go on duty at a certain time, and they say that his time begins with the departure of the train; not the time that he went on duty. At the time of the departure of the train: That is when he commenced to earn money. Mr. Sheean : I am talking, Mr. Cadle, about a schedule, or a rule, which assures a man pay for every minute, from the time he is required to report for duty, whether he did anj^thing or not, and continuing to pay him until he is finally released. If rates commensurate with that kind of service are given, that is a fair basis for paying the man, is it not ? Mr. Cadle : He will never end a day, nor he will never begin one, if you put a rule of that kind. He would go on a job the first of the year and get off the end of December, because the railroads will work him in continuous service. Mr. Sheean: Is there any misapprehension now between the men and the railroads as to when a man goes on duty at the beginning of a trip and when he goes off duty? Mr. Cadle: No, sir, the schedules pretty well provide for that. 256 Mr. Sheean: And it is pretty generally understood as to when a man is required to report for duty and when he is finally released ? Mr. Cadle: Yes, sir. But in the absence of that rule — Mr. Sheean: Well, I say at the present time, and during the last three years, there is not any misunderstanding as to when a man goes on duty and when he is released, is there! Mr. Cadle: Their schedules provide when they are sup- posed to go to work, yes, sir, and their schedules provide when they begin to earn money. Mr. Sheean: Yes, and if the provision was made that he was paid for every minute of the time that he was on duty, there would not be any misunderstanding as to when he went on duty? There is no difference by virtue of that fact, from present prac- tice, is there? Mr. Cadle: No, sir. Mr. Sheean : Is there in any schedule that you know of any difference because of weights on drivers in switching service? Mr. Cadle : I think there are a few schedules that make a difference in the size of the cylinder or in the weight on drivers, but I do not recall just what they are. There is a differential, yes. The Chicago, Milwaukee & St. Paul right here in the city, I think, makes a differential in switching service. Mr. Sheean: Based on weights on drivers? Mr. Cadle: Yes, I think so, weights on drivers or size of cylinders. Mr. Sheean: About the delays to which you adverted on direct examination. The rule as proposed, both as to initial and final terminal delay, so called, covers all of the time between the movement from the depot in passenger service, down to the roundhouse? Mr. Cadle: Yes. Mr. Sheean : Whether there be any real delay such as you have described here through blocking of the yard or otherwise? Mr. Cadle : Yes. Mr. Sheean: Even though moved in the most expeditious manner? Mr. Cadle: Yes. Mr. Sheean: From the station to the roundhouse? 257 Mr. Cadle : Yes, if they ask them to perfonn a service, we are asking for pay for it. Mr. Sheean : So that that is to be separate from the road trip in every instance! Mr. Cadle: Yes. Mr. Sheean : If they are required to go down to the round- house with their engine and deliver it to the roundhouse force? Mr. Cadle : Yes. Mr. Sheean: That time must be paid for? Mr. Cadle: Yes. Mr. Sheean : Separate from the trip ? Mr. Cadle : Yes, under the rule. Mr. Sheean: That applies to runs that are made in two, three or four hours? Mr. Cadle: Yes. Mr. Sheean: That applies to all branch lines? Mr. Cadle: Yes, that terminate at these points, where there is not a special rate fixed, or a special rule to govern. Mr. Sheean : That applies to a 200 mile run, where a man draws pay for two days for making the run in four or five hours? Mr. Cadle: Yes. Mr. Sheean: Do you know the run between Chicago and Burlington ? Mr. Cadle: Yea. Mr. Sheean : What is the length of that ? Mr. Cadle : Do you mean those mail runs ? Mr. Sheean: Yes. Mr. Cadle : Between three and four hours. Mr. Sheean: How many miles? Mr. Cadle: 207. Mr. Sheean : The man makes the run in between three and four hours, does he not? Mr. Cadle : I think so. I do not know just the exact sched- ule, but I should judge so. Mr. Sheean : He draws tw^o days ' pay for those four hours ' work? Mr. Cadle: He draws the 207 miles. Mr. Sheean: A little more than is fixed at what you call two days ' pay. When you speak of a four hour day or a five hour 258 day, he draws a little over twice that day that you speak of for that run? Mr. Cadle : He makes it in miles ; he does not make it in hours. Mr. Sheean : No, but, Mi . Cadle, he gets the same pay as if he had worked twenty hours for it, when you convert it in that way? Mr. Cadle: No, we get pay for 200 miles. We run that 200 miles say in four hours, and we get paid the mileage rate, and not for the four hours. Mr. Sheean: Without attempting to debate with you on that, all I mean is this : On that run where the man now makes the miles between here and Burlington in less than four hours, this schedule if adopted would require the company to pay to that man for tliat four hour trip, first, thirty minutes additional time ? Mr. Cadle: Yes. Mr. Sheean : Then if he took his engine at the roundhouse, an arbitrary allowance — or I will strike out the word "arbi- trary" — but pay for the time from the roundhouse to the station. Mr. Cadle: Yes, the rule contemplates that. Mr. Sheean: And at the other end the time from the pas- senger depot to the roundhouse where he delivers it? Mr. Cadle: Yes. Mr. Sheean: Whether there was any delay at either terminal or not? Mr. Cadle: Yes, the rule contemplates that. Mr. Sheean: It also provides that if at the beginning of that run of 200 miles, in order to meet this mail train or express train or whatever it was, he was held here 45 minutes at the station, but arrived on time at the other end of the run, he would also receive that 45 minutes in addition to the miles, when he was on duty altogether six hours from the time he reported till he was relieved? Mr. Cadle : I do not understand how he gets the 45 minutes. Mr. Sheean : He is 45 minutes late getting out of here. Mr. Cadle : Oh, I understand you — yes. Mr. Sheean : He comes in on time at Burlinsrton. Mr. Cadle: Yes. Mr. Sheean : Under this projwsal, in addition to paying 259 him for the 207 miles you pay him that 45 minutes initial termi- nal delay, do you notf Mr. Cadle: Yes. Mr. Sheean : There would be no way of avoiding that f Mr. Oadle: No, sir. Mr. Sheean: This preparatory time and this initial ter- minal delay applies also to all suburban runs? Mr. Cadle : I do not think so. Mr. Sheean: You think, then, that this statement made here that Article 6 shall not apply to suburbans should also be made as to Article 7 ? Mr. Cadle : Wait a minute. The preparatory time, in my judgment would apply to the initial trip but it would not apply to every trip that the man goes out. A man might get ready three, four or five times in one day on a suburban train, but I believe the rule should be applied to the initial trip and to the final trip. Mr. Sheean: That is the initial delay? Mr. Cadle : Yes. Mr. Sheean : Getting from the roundhouse ? Mr. Cadle : Yes, and the final. Mr. Sheean: Assuming that in one of the suburban runs, after his first run in at noon he takes the engine out to the roundhouse at 26th street and goes home to dinner, and then on his return after dinner he takes the engine at 26th street and brings it do^vn to Randolph street to start out, does he draw pay for that delay between 26th street and Randolph street? Mr. Cadle : No, I think I explained that pretty thoroughly, that in my judgment that rule would apply to the first trip going on duty in the morning, and the closing of the final trip in the evening. I do not believe the preparatory time should be counted on the intermediate trips. Mr. Sheean : I am not talking about the preparatory time. I am talking about initial and final delay. Mr. Cadle: Initial delay — take any one of them — Mr. Sheean : Then if he is delayed on any one of his runs that day, so that he does not start out on time on any one of the shorter runs, do you include there the initial terminal delay? Mr. Cadle: No, sir. 260 Mr. Slieean : He would draw that on each one of the runs ? Mr. Cadle: No, not on each one of the runs — just on the first run, just one. Mr. Sheean: It would be necessary to have some note or modification of this rule 6 as drafted, would it not, to exempt suburban service from it ? Mr. Cadle : As I understood it, the engineers have already written such a note. Mr. Sheean: The note as read into the record is that it does not apply to Article 7, automatic release. I am now in- quiring about Article 6. The only note that we have read into the record is the one that pertains to Article 7. I am now in- quiring about Article 6, Mr. Cadle. Is it your judgment that that note or explanation should be made applicable also to Article 6? Mr. Cadle : Yes, if it does not include suburban service. Mr. Sheean: What about turn-around passenger service? Mr. Cadle : The rule provides how turn-around passenger service shall be paid. Mr. Sheean: Which rule? Mr. Cadle : Rule 1 — passenger service. Mr. Sheean: Then I am not sure that I understood you this morning. I thought that as to Article 1, the five hour day you spoke of, the 100 miles or less, it was your thought that on turn-arounds an exception should be made. Mr. Cadle : On suburban trains ? Mr. Sheean : Suburban only, but not branch lines. Mr. Cadle: I told you that there were schedules where there was an exception made for short turn-around passenger service. Mr. Sheean: I understood you to say you knew of no schedule having a provision of the five hour day, and which ap- plied to turn-around passengers, in which there was not an ex- ception as to the turn-around passengers. Mr, Cadle: There are different rules governing the turn- around passenger service. Where a man makes round trips, there are certain rules that govern that service. Mr. Sheean: All I wanted at this time was whether Arti- cle 6 applied to turn-around passenger service. Mr. Cadle : I think we have furnished the Managers ' Com- 261 mittee with a modified rule in regard to that turn-around service. Mr. Sheean : That is not in this submission, is it? Mr. Cadle : No, but to answer your question, it appears to me that we have made some concessions in that to the Managers' Committee. Mr. Sheean: In this proposal? Mr. Cadle : In regard to the provision of Article 1 apply- ing in turn-around passenger service. Mr. Sheean: Just to make that clear, what exception do you say should be made in Article 1 as to turn-around passenger service ? Mr. Cadle: There are a great many things that would enter into that, that would make me entirely incompetent to go to work and state what should be done to that. Mr. Sheean : But as now drafted Article 1 as well as Arti- cle 6 does cover and apply to all turn-around passenger service ? Mr. Cadle: Yes. Mr. Sheean : No matter how short it may be ? Mr. Cadle : Yes. Mr. Sheean: It does cover all branches'? Mr. Cadle: Yes. Mr. Sheean: It covers, for instance, one branch on the Burlington that I happen to be familiar with, between Galena- and Galena Junction, three miles long! Mr. Cadle : Yes. Mr. Sheean: And where the one crew is up and down, doing that work, four or five times a day? Mr. Cadle : Yes. Mr. Sheean : That is a branch line too, and not. suburban. The automatic release would apply to that, too, would it, I mean under these articles as submitted! Mr. Cadle : There are a great many of them where it would be a hard matter to affect a man's turn, first in and first out, where there is only one man on the job. Mr. Sheean : But he begins a new day after he arrives at his terminal ? Mr. Cadle: If he runs far enough. Mr. Sheean: How far does he have to run before he is automatically released ? Mr. Cadle: If he affects other men, if he goes out and 262 comes back, it does not make any difference; there is no limit on the distance. Mr. Sheean: If he does not affect any other man? Mr. Cadle: Then he has got to go out again. Mr. Sheean: But does a new day begin when he goes out? Mr. Cadle: It does, under automatic release. Mr. Sheean: So that covers even those three mile branches, as now drafted? Mr. Cadle: Yes. Mr. Sheean: That rule. Article 7, automatic release and tie-up, to which we have just referred, w^ould cover all such cases as, for instance, a switching crew going out a short dis- tance to help in a disabled passenger train? Mr. Cadle: Were you called upon a switching crew that was working in the yard? Mr. Sheean: Yes, to go out a thousand feet beyond the yard limits and bring in a disabled passenger train. Mr. Cadle : No, sir, the automatic release would not apply. He would not be done with his job when he came in. Mr. Sheean: He would not be done with it? Mr. Cadle: No, they would put him back in the yard switching. Mr. Sheean: Would he draw a day's pay for the road trip? Mr. Cadle: He would, under some of the schedules, yes. Mr. Sheean: I am talking about this schedule that is pro- posed here. Mr. Cadle: If that man is automatically released, he surely comes within the meaning of the rule. Mr. Sheean: I want to get at just what this rule would do to operations of that sort. There would be a day paid for each of any number of such trips that might be made on the road, if there happened to be more than one? Mr. Cadle: If the automatic release would apply, yes. Mr. Sheean: That is what I am trying to ascertain. You are a practical man, who have dealt with many interpretations, for many years. I want to know whether or not this rule, as drafted, in its present form, would cover just that situation? Mr. Cadle: I believe it was generally agreed by all con- cerned yesterday that this was a new invention, this ''Automatic Eelease." 263 Mr. Sheean: Yes, and you have not had any experience mth it? Mr. Cadle : No, sir. I know of only one road where there is a rule for an automatic release. Mr. Sheean : What road is that? Mr. Cadle : The Northern Pacific. Mr. Sheean : Now, on that particular railroad, where they have that automatic release, is it not a fact that where a passen- ger train got off the track, a thousand feet outside the yard limits, and three switch engines, one after the other, ran down there to see if they could help re-rail the train, where they could be of no assistance, and came back into the yard, each one of those crews, under this automatic release rule, claimed a day, as this was outside of their yard service, and every train crew in the yard put in a claim for a day, because of being run-around ? Mr. Cadle: I would not be a bit surprised but what they they asked for it. Mr. Sheean : Under that automatic release rule. And that is the only road of which you know that has the automatic re- lease rule that you spoke of as being a new invention, where it has been tried out and practiced? Mr. Cadle : I do not presume that the crews were paid— those crews that claimed the time. Mr. Sheean : But you think they would put in a claim for it under that rule ? Mr. Cadle : Why, they put in all kinds of claims ; not only that claim, but all classes of men do it. Mr. Nagel: An automatic release and an automatic raise are both asked. Mr, Cadle : No, there are a great many of our men who do not understand these rules, and they are liable to make almost any kind of claims, but they are not allowed. Mr. Nagel: Would these men be entitled to make that claim under the rule as you have proposed it? Mr. Cadle : I do not think so. I do not think they would. Mr. Sheean: Why not? If you were the manager of a railroad, and you had this rule, which said that when they ar- rived at their terminal they would be automatically released, I wish you would tell us what reasons you could give in reply to 264 the contention that you say would be made, that each of these crews was automatically released? Mr. Cadle: Well, in the first place, there was a train de- railed within the yard limits and the engineers, the switch engi- neers, were called upon to see if they could assist in re-railing that train. They went up there but did not go outside of their yard limits. Mr. Slieean : Oh, ves ; a thousand feet out of their vard. They made a road trip. Mr. Cadle : That is all right, but they went right back to work? Mr. Sheean : But these men went out a thousand feet be- yond the yard limit. What was the reply to the men on the Automatic Release rule? Mr. Cadle : I really don 't know. Mr. Sheean : Suppose you w^ere there as the manager try- ing to convince them that their claim was inequitable and unjust, and they pointed to this provision of the schedule I Mr. Cadle : It is a very hard matter for me to state what I would say to them, but I might give you a few illustrations of what general managers have said to me on such claims as that. Mr. Sheean : I would like, if you could, Mr. Cadle, to just limit yourself to that particular rule, this automatic release rule, and that particular thing which happened in operation, as to what escape there could be from making those payments under a rule worded just as your rule is. Mr. Cadle : Well, I really don 't know. I don 't know. Mr. Sheean : Well, then, let us pass the automatic release, Mr. Cadle, for the time being. Mr. Burgess: May I ask you a question, Mr. Sheean? Mr. Sheean: Surely. Mr. Burgess : In relation to that claim you referred to, I am very much interested to know whether those crews got what they claimed in money. . Mr. Sheean: I will be very glad to ascertain that. My only information is from the negotiations between the trainmen and the Northern Pacific management, in which that statement was made by the general manager. We will be very glad to wire and ascertain that. Mr. Burgess : You need not do that — 265 Mr. Sheean : I am reading from the transcript of the pro- ceedings. Mr. Stone : If I may inject the information into the discus- sion, I can say that the claim was not allowed. Mr. Sheean : I do not doubt Mr. Stone 's statement at all as to that, but I think we will be able to show a number of cases of practically just as short runs made by engineers on a number of roads for relief of other crews, getting a day's pay for an hour or an hour and a half, in addition to their regular day. Mr. Stone: This has reference to the Automatic Release? Mr. Sheean: The inability to combine a road day with a yard day or a worktrain day with a road day, where the work- train takes its engine down to the shop, a distance of twenty- three miles, at the end of a full day in the yard, and they get one hundred miles for taking it down the road. Mr. Stone : We will probably have some just as extreme the other way, so the honors will be even. Mr. Sheean : I think Mr. Cadle has probably stated it about right, that the claim will be made and resisted so far as they can. The next rule, Mr. Cadle, is Article 8, Held away from home terminals. Under that rule, Mr. Cadle, an enginerr or fireman arriving at a terminal other than his home terminal, and required to take ten hours rest under the law, would have to be started back within five hours after his rest was out. Mr. Cadle : Out of the terminal? Mr. Sheean: Yes. Mr. Cadle: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean: And under this rule, if he was called at a terminal, away from his home terminal, say at the expiration of fourteen hours, but was delayed in getting out of that ter- minal for three hours, would he draw pay both under this rule and under your Initial Terminal Delay rule? Mr. Cadle : If you paid him three hours for the initial ter- minal time, his road freight pay would begin on his departure, not the time that the delay started. Mr. Sheean: But under this rule, Mr. Cadle, he goes on continuous time after the expiration of fifteen hours? Mr. Cadle: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean: And you do not think that they ought to claim, that it would be equitable to claim, that a man drawing 266 pay for terminal delay should also be paid under this rule, because he was held away from his home terminal more than fifteen hours, and claim pay under both rules, in other words! Mr. Cadle : AVell, I think if you call a man to go to work and you have got him on duty, and he is practically on duty, that that time should be counted. Mr. Sheean: Twice? Mr. Cadle : Why, it should be counted, yes. You pay him for it — that he was on duty, because you pay him for it. Mr. Sheean : So he would ])e drawing continuous tune un- der this rule, and initial terminal delay under the other rule ? Mr. Cadle: Oh, no; initial terminal delay is the time you are held in terminal after the time fixed for your train. Now, then, as I understand that question you asked me, if an engineer is held three hours, if that three hours shall count as part of his time as held away from home terminal. You have put the man to work, if he earns terminal delay he earns that on his day and on his twenty-eight hours. Mr. Sheean : This one has shortened up to fifteen hours. Mr. Cadle: I am just mentioning that for illustration. We have got a fifteen hour rule. Mr. Sheean: In the west anywhere? Mr. Cadle : I don't know whether we have got them in the west. We have them in the east. Mr. Sheean : All I wanted on that, Mr. Cadle, is that we did not think that a claim should properly be made by either an engineer or a fireman, or trainman, or anyone else, that he was entitled to pay under two rules at the same time. Mr. Cadle : On the held away from home terminal 1 Mr. Sheean : Held away from home terminal. Mr. Cadle : No, I would not think so. Mr Sheean: • Of those fifteen hours, Mr. Cadle, as much as ten hours may be used in the rest period, may it not? Mr. Cadle: Yes, sir, where you have been in service six- teen hours, sixteen consecutive hours, under the Federal law. Mr. Sheean: Does that also cover the situation of a regu- larly scheduled train that is away from home terminal; a way freight, say, that does not run on schedule? Mr. Cadle : The schedules that we have made with a great many of these railroads, provide that where the law of the 267 state ties them up and they cannot move, then the rule does not apply. Mr. Sheean : Well, this does not make an exception as to any of those things. Mr. Cadle: Sir? Mr. Sheean: This rule as proposed does not make any of those exceptions. Mr. Cadle: No, sir, it has made no exceptions. Mr. Sheean: Does it make any exception to the case where there is a regularly assigned run that calls upon one to be away more than fifteen hours'? Mr. Cadle: The rule does not, no, sir. Mr. Sheean: You think that should be done, regular assignments or bulletined runs, that the men take, elect to take, in passenger service — may take it by exercise of his seniority rights. Mr. Cadle: Where he is longer than that on his regular assignment, I would not consider that the rule should apply. Mr. Sheean: But as drafted, it does not contain that exception 1 Mr. Cadle: No, sir. Mr. Sheean: That also is true as to way freights, isn't it, Mr. Cadle, that the way freight with a Sunday lay-over should not be paid for? Mr. Cadle: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean: That you would cover under the head of regular assignments? Mr. Cadle: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean: Because the way freights practically are reg- ular assignments? Mr. Cadle: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean: Now, then, Mr. Cadle, doesn't that practi- cally get it down to the unassigned pool service, as the only case to which it should apply? Mr. Cadle: Well, you have got to protect the men; you may go to work and make assignments of runs that might give what you term a *'try weekly" service, going up one week and trying to get back the next, and he would spend all the money he earned going up, laying up at the terminal point trying to 268 get back, and when you get back home, you are in debt. That is wliat that rule is trying to prevent. Mr. Sheean: Those assigned runs would be bulletined runs, ordinarily ? Mr. Cadle: Yes, they assign men to run in different ways, and they have different methods and different plans of assign- ing engineers to runs. You may assign six, you may assign two, and you may assign one to a regular run. Mr. Sheean: Now, taking that very case, Mr, Cadle, that you spoke of, this "try weekly," where the train goes three days in one direction and three days in the other direction; do you think the fifteen hour rule should apply on that sort of situation ? Mr. Cadle: I think the fifteen hour rule should apply so Ithat men may be able to work at least part of every twenty-four hours, so that tliey can earn a living. Mr. Sheean: And on these rmis where the business is enough, just enough, to enable the company to do it all with running trains, one train a day, one way freight a day, on alter- nate days, you think the schedule should not permit the opera- tion of trains in that way, unless under this arrangement they pay continuous time when the man is at the other end of that branch ? Mr. Cadle: I don't think a man should be held an unrea- sonable number of hours away from home in the case you cite. Mr. Sheean: Well, Mr. Cadle, isn't it true that on these short tum-arounds, if you please, or on these short branches where way freights are run, or, in way freight operation, where but six trains a week are run, and those are regularly sched- uled runs, and bid in by the men, selected by the men them- selves, as preferred runs, if you please, because of the light work, that an arbitrary, and by arbitrary I mean an unbendable rule or inelastic rule of this sort, would impose very severe burdens upon roads which operate in that manner, at the present time! Mr. Cadle: I don't believe the rule was ever contemplated or framed for the purpose of covering runs such as you have stated. Mr. Sheean : That being the case, Mr. Cadle, there should be some reasonable exception — you and I won 't debate what that 269 exception should be, but there should be some reasonable ex- ception to cover a situation such as here described. Mr. Cadle: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean: And in the end can you tell us any service other than the unassigned pool service in which this rule should be applicable? Mr. Cadle: Well, there are cases where men take light engines that are going from one district to another; there is a case where that rule should apply, so that the men could get back home. Now, it is the custom of railroads, a great many railroads, where a man takes a new engine out, that they are going to de- liver to another division, they generally hold him over to takeb an engine that is going to the shop for repairs. There are times!? when they hold those men perhaps an unreasonable time, Nowi^, I believe that the rule should apply to those cases. Mr. Sheean: That is unassigned service? Mr. Cadle : Yes, but you asked me if I knew of any other service. Mr. Sheean : I said unassigned pool service 1 This service that you speak of now is covered by specific schedule provisions, from what you read yesterday. Mr. Cadle: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean: This rule has no exception in case of snow" blockades or wash-outs. Do you know of any schedule that re- quires a company, where a man happens to be away from his home terminal and there is a wash-out, so there is no operation on the road, that he goes on continuous time and draws pay for every hour, no matter Avhat the casualty has been that causes that situation? Mr. Cadle: There are schedules in which there are pro- visions for snow blockades after a certain number of hours, where the company has agreed to pay the engineers a certain amount of pay. Mr. Sheean : This makes no exception for snow blockades or wash-outs. At the end of fitfeen hours he goes on continuous time, no matter what the cause may be. I am talking about your proposal, the language of the proposal. Article 8. Mr. Cadle: That proposal does not make any, but there are schedules in existence on these railroads that provide for payment for this work right now. 270 Mr. ISheeaii: If this gives you better, this is it? Mr. Cadle: Yes. Mr. Sheean: And there is no exception as to snow block- ades or casualties of any kind? Mr. Cadle : No, sir, not in there. Mr. Sheean : This covers the case of a man being tied up under the law? Mr. Cadle: I think you have got a rule that provides for that. Mr. Sheean: This takes the place of that, doesn't it? Mr. Cadle: It does, so far as the pajTnent is concerned. So far as refers to the wages. Mr. Sheean: And so far as the continuous time is con- cerned, too, Mr. Cadle, doesn't it? Mr. Cadle: Yes, it provides that you should be paid for all the time you are held up on the road. Mr. Sheean: And the provisions in this agreement that have existed heretofore as to time tied up under the law, after a certain length of time, provide for paying a minimum day for each twenty-four hours, do they not? Mr. Cadle: It provides, after a certain number of hours rest, that a man automatically goes on duty again and begins drawing pay. Mr. Sheean: But not continuous pay such as you have here? Mr. Cadle : I^^o, we have not been getting paid for the rest, the rest period has been deducted. Now, there are some sched- ules — Mr. Sheean: This is the only schedule provision that you know of, isn't it, Mr. Cadle, where the pay goes on whether the man is actually resting or sleeping, or not ? Mr. Cadle: I think we have got some schedules where we pay them continuous time when they are on the road ; when they are asleep, when they are resting, all during the rest period. Mr. Sheean: It was intended that this should supplant the present agreement as to the compliance with the Hours of Service Law. Mr. Cadle : So far as it refers to continuous pay. Mr. Sheean: In so far as it conflicts in any way with the 271 present agreements as to the Hours of Service Law, this would supplant it, if more favorable to the men? Mr. Cadle : Only just in so far as the pay is concerned, that is all. It would not do away with the Hours of Service Law; that is the law governing the period on service. Mr. Sheean: But, Mr. Cadle, if being held away from home terminals was in order to comply with the provisions of the Federal law, nevertheless this rule would be the applicable rule and would cover payment for the rest period? Mr. Cadle: Yes, so far as the pay is concerned, it would change that. Mr. Sheean: I am not quite sure that I understand this latter part of the rule ^'At the rate per hour paid for the last service performed," where you pay his continuous time at the rate per hour paid for the last service performed. Supposing, that one of these engineers, on this i*un that we were talking about here a few minutes ago, two hundred and seven miles which he makes in four hours — supposing he was unfortunate enough to have a wash-out behind him, and fall under the operation of this rule, how does this rule apply as to the rate per hour! Mr. Cadle: He would be paid for that two hundred mile run, if that was the last work he had performed before he was held away, he would be paid at the rate for overtime, on that, particular run, the passenger rate. Mr. Sheean: I mean under your proposition as a whole, here ; he makes that run in four hours, he will say, two hundred miles in four hours. What is the applicable rate per hour under this provision? Mr. Cadle : It says pro rata. Mr. Sheean: No, it says at the rate per hour paid for the last service performed. Mr. Cadle : Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean : We have paid him for fifty miles for the last hour he has worked. Mr. Cadle: No, you have paid him for two hundred and seven miles. Mr. Sheean : Without knowing the number of hours a man has worked, or the miles he has run, could you tell what the hourly rate is ? Mr. Cadle : There is one point that you do not quite bring 272 out there very clearly. You take tliat man on that two hundred mile run, and he has got to give you ten hours before his over- time commences. His overtime does not commence after five hours, where he runs two hundred and seven miles; he com- mences after ten hours and twenty-one minutes before his over- time connnences. While he has made his two hundred and seven miles, and he has earned this money that you say he has earned, at the same time that company could hold that man on the road on that two hundred and seven miles, ten hours and twenty- one minutes before his overtime commences. Mr. Sheean: Mr. Cadle, I am talking now — Mr. Cadle: You want to know what amount per hour! "VNliatever the overtime rate is what he would receive in the last service; if that passenger service paid him fifty cents an hour, w^hy, he would be paid fifty cents. If his last service w^as freight, if he came in on a freight train, and that freight train — Mr. Sheean: I am not talking about any overtime rate, I am talking about Article 8. Mr. Cadle : You are trying to find out what the last service was that was performed? Mr. Sheean: Just take the case — I went back to that case we were talking about — suppose that this man has made his run of two hundred and seven miles and he leaves here at four o'clock in the afternoon and gets out there at eight o'clock; now, a bridge has washed out from across the river and he does not get back here for tw'o days. I am asking, under this Article 8, where you say he will be paid at the rate per hour paid for the last service performed — Mr. Cadle: Whatever the overtime rate is; w^hatever the rate of pay. That might be fifty cents, or it might be sixty cents — whatever the rate of pay for overtime per hour applies, that is the rate of pay that he would receive. Mr. Sheean : If it was a freight train, it would be time and a half, w^ould it? Mr. Cadle: It would, if you established the rule, yes, sir. Mr. Sheean: If you established the rule that time and a half would be carried into this Article 8, of Held Away from Home Terminals? Mr. Sheean : I want to get, Mr. Cadle, just what that means, that one class. • 273 Mr. Cadle : It' that was — the last service I performed was on a freight train, I would get the regular overtime rate per liour in that class of service for the additional hours. Mr. Sheean: Well, then, all freight service being at time and a half for every twenty-four hours that this man is held away from his home terminal after the first fifteen, you pay him 36 hours, paid at the overtime rate, you understand. Mr. Cadle: The overtime rate, as I understand it, applies to — at terminals. Mr. Sheean : "Well, that is what I wanted to get cleared up if I could, Mr. Cadle, on this Article 8. It says here **at the rate per hour for the last service i)erformed." Now, if you say the ap])licable rate is the overtime rate, why, the only overtime rate in freight service is time and a half, is it not! Mr. Cadle : Under this proposition ? Mr. Sheean : Yes, under this proposition. Mr. Cadle: Yes. Mr. Sheean: Well, now, I wanted to know whether under Article 8, wherever a man was held away from the home ter- minal, he would not only be paid continuous time, but be paid at the overtime rate of time and a half f Mr. Cadle : It would depend entirely where the service that he — when you put him in service, whether there was any over- time in connection with that trip or not. If there was any con- nection — if there was any overtime in connection with that trip, you would pay the overtime at — Mr. Sheean: Well, that is, — he got into this away from home terminal, if you yjlease, where he was entitled to rest under the law. Mr. Cadle : Yes. Mr. Sheean : Therefore he was in overtime. He was given the rest, ten hours, and he did not get out wdtliin five hours after he was again available for duty. Now, the last part of his trip coming in was at the overtime rate unquestionably. Mr. Cadle: Yes. Mr. Sheean : Now, this continuous time would run on under the overtime rate under this rule? Mr. Cadle: Whv, it would under tlie rule, ves. Mr. Sheean : Under the rule, yes. Mr. Cadle: Yes. 274 Mr. ISlieeau: Well, uow, you are applying that, Mr. Cadle, to the last jjart of his trip. In the passenger service you say it would be overtime there even though there was no overtime. In the example about this Burlington run of 207 miles I was as- suming there, that he made that run without any overtime. Was simply held away because a Mississippi bridge was washed out. Mr. Cadle: Well, the schedule of his train has been esti- mated to be between three and four hours and he made the three or four hours in mileage, 207 miles ; he would draw no overtime on a run of that kind until ten hours and 21 minutes. You could hold him 10 hours and 21 minutes between here and Burlington, when he would arrive at this station, when all he would get would be 207 miles. Mr. Sheean: I am talking about his having completed — he has completed his run, and he is released at Burlington. Mr. Cadle : I understand that. Mr. Sheean: Completed it on time? Mr. Cadle: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean: But after he is iisleep there the bridge is washed out. Mr. Cadle: Yes. Mr. Sheean: And we cannot get him back! Mr. Cadle: Yes. Mr. Sheean : More than 15 hours has gone bv before he can be brought back at all. Now, he is entitled to some pay under this rule, Ijecause being away more than the fifteen hours he is entitled to pay. What I was trying to get at in this rule is just what pay does he get ? It is clear that he gets pay, but at what rate per hour? Mr. Cadle : The last service that he came in on. Mr. Sheean: Well, now, the last service that he came in on was 207 miles, run in four hours. Mr. Cadle: Yes. His overtime — Mr. Sliooan : He had no overtime, he was on time. Mr. Cadle: I understand that, but we will say he had overtime. Mr. Sheean: Let us get it both ways if you want it that way. Let us have it first when he made the run on time, there was not anv overtime. He has made the run regularlv and on time, and he is in here. This casualty happens after he is in 275 bed. Now, he is held away from the home terminal more than fifteen hours, and we have to pay him some money, and we have to pay him under this rule at the rate per hour for the last service performed. How much per hour is he entitled to? Mr. Cadle: Whatever the rate of the overtime is in that class of service under the different schedules. Mr. Sheean: We haven't any schedule except this. Mr. Cadle: Well, you have, you have a whole lot of them. Mr. Sheean: I mean we are paying him under this. Mr. Cadle: If you w^ould pay him under that, you would pay him time and a half. Mr. Sheean: Time and a half? Mr. Cadle: Time and a half at the overtime rate in pas- senger service. Mr. Sheean: Now, Mr. Cadle, it is true, is it not, that engineers and firemen are ordinarily not tied up between their terminals except in case of some casualty or unforeseen accident there under the law^? Mr. Cadle: There were numerous cases where engineer and fireman were tied up between terminals before we put a rule in there that required the company to either run them in or pay them for those tie-ups. Mr. Sheean: Well, I am talking about the situation now and for the last three years, the practice as exists now and has existed for three years, that crews are not ordinarily tied up between their terminals except in the case of wash-outs or casualties of some kind? Mr. Cable: No, we find that there are a number of rail- roads where they work a crew up to the sixteen hour limit and tie them up, and then work them another sixteen hours, or fourteen hours, and tie them up. I think we could show cases here where they have been tied up three and four times from the time they left their usual terminal until they arrived at their final terminal — destination. Mr. Sheean: That is, in case of wrecks or wash-outs? Mr. Cadle: No, sir. Mr. Sheean: What were they doing to get a combination of sixteen and fourteen hours going from one terminal to another? Mr. Cadle: Hauling tonnage, getting them up those hills. '276 Mv. Slu'caii: .Vnd you lliiiik tliat yon have an instance of aroinij: from one terminal to another without anv casualty or break-down or anything of the sort, in which there is sixteen hours, ten hours' rest, and then- another fourteen hours before getting' to another terminal? Mr. Cadle: Yes. Mr. Slieean: Within the last three years? Mr. Cadle: Oh, yes. Mr. Sheean: Well, can you answer, Mr. Cadle, whether or not it is ordinarily the case that crews are not tied between the terminals except to give comjiliauce with the sixteen hour law or in case of casualty or accident? Mr. Cadle: As a general rule, the railroad companies do not tie them up. Mr. Sheean: Is this xVrticle 8, Mr. Cadle, intended to apply to work trains regularly assigned between terminals for a period of several weeks? Mr. Cadle: Article 8? Mr. Sheean: Yes. That is the Held Away from Home Terminal. Mr. Cadle: I don't tliink it is intended to apply to work trains, no, sir. Mr. Sheean: There is no exception, however, in the rulel Mr. Cadle: No. /^\lr. Sheean: But work trains should be excepted. Mr. Cadle: Oh, yes. ]Sf r. Slieean : What about snow plows ; they should be ex- cepted also? Mr. Cadle : I think so, yes, sir. Mr. Sheean : Yv'ell, what about work trains tied up between terminals under the preceding rule. Article 7? Mr. Cadle : I don 't understand your question. Ask it again, please. Mr. Sheean : In the case of work trains that are tied up, regularly assigned to do work in between terminals, tied up reg- ularly every niirht between terminals, would they fall under Arti- cle 7? Mr. Cadle : Yes, sir, where they are tied up every night. Mr. Sheean : Although that is their regular assignment ? Mr. Cadle: Yes. 277 Mr. Slieoan : Would you pay them continuous time? Mr. Cadle : No, sir. Mr. Slieean : Then there should be some exception made as to work trains under the last paragraph of Article 7, should there not? Mr. Cadle: Article 7, as I understand the last ])aragTaph, it contemplates that where you will work a work train crew six- teen hours, and he has got to tie up for a rest, that you will pay him continuous time. Mr. Sheean: Well, this does not sav anvthing about tied u}) for a rest, does it? Tied up for any reason between termi- nals, as it is worded. Is it your understanding, Mr. Cadle, that there could be interlined after the words ''tied up" the words "for rest" there, and that is the proper interpretation of the rule. ''Engineer and fireman tied up for rest." Mr. Cadle: Well, I don't see how the rule could apply oth- erwise. Mr. Sheean: What vou mean, Mr. Cadle, is, that you do not think it ought to apply to work trains that are regularly assigned? Mr. Cadle : Why, where they are getting their regular rest. A terminal of a work train is, as I understand it, where he Jias fixed the same terminal for him to tie up; where he ties up for the night. But if he goes into that point and ties up, the rule does not apply. Mr. Sheean : Well, very frequently a work train is operated without its getting into any terminal at all, is it not? Mr. Cadle : Well, as I understand, a terminal is an ending, and where a work train ends its day's work that would be con- sidered his tenninal. Mr. Sheean: So that any pit work at all w^ould not come under this rule. That should be covered by a special rule, or at least that this would not be applicable to any ties-up of that sort ? Mr. Cadle : The rule, as I understand it — what that second paragraph is put in there for, it is where you work a crew in work train service until he is tied up under the Federal law, that he shall be paid for the time so tied up. That is my under- standing of what the intent of that rule is. 278 Mr. Slieeaii: AVell, that would be your interpretation or application of this as to the work train, would it ? Mr. Cadle: Yes, that is my understanding of the rule, that second paragraph of the rule. Mr. Sheean: So that he would draw his pay during the time tied up? Mr. Cadle : Yes. If you don't do that, he will lose the next day. Mr. Sheean : So that it does have some application to work trains ? Mr. Cadle: Yes. Mr. Sheean : Now, Mr. Cadle, we will turn to Article 9 for a minute, ' * Deadheading. ' ' (Whereupon, at 4:30 o'clock P. M., December 2, 1914, an adjournment was taken until 10 o'clock A. M., December 3, 1914.) 279 IX THE MATTER OF THE ARBITRATION hetiveen the WESTERN RAILWAYS and BROTHERHOOD OF LOCOMOTIVE ENGINEERS and BROTHERHOOD OF LOCOMOTIVE FIRE- MEN AND ENGINEMEN under the Act approved July 15, 1913, hy agree- ment dated August 3, 1914. Chicago, Illinois, Dec. 3, 1914. Met ijursiiant to adjournment, at 10 o'clock A. M. Present: Arbitrators and parties as before. The Chairman : You may proceed, Mr. Slieean. M. W. CADLE was recalled for further examination, and having' been previously sworn, testified as follows : Mr. Cadle : I would like, if the Board please, to correct my testimony of yesterday, where Mr. Slieean asked me when I last ran an engine. I told him I believed it was twelve or fifteen years. I have not been in active service as a locomotive engineer since 1892. I served as chairman for the engineers on the Mis- souri Pacific and was available at all times to report for work, at any time they might call upon me. I would like to have that correction made. Mr. Sheean : I am afraid, in looking over some of my ques- tions yesterdaj^, that the record may be just a little bit confused about the Hours of Service Law and the agreement made be- tween the organizations and the railroads as to the ai)plication of the Hours of Service Law. At page 279, of Exhibit Number 2, there seems to be set out in full the agreement governing crews in road service tied up between terminals, in compliance with the Hours of Service Law, negotiated April 1st, 1908, between the Order of Railway Conductors, the Brotherhood of Railroad Trainmen, the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers and the 280 Brotliorhood of Locomotive Firemen and Enginemen. That rule or agreement is generally in eflt'ect in the Western territory, is it not? Mr. Cadle: Yes. Mr. Sheean: And the organizations here specified are operating under that rule at the present time! Mr. Cadle : Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean: Now, in so far as your request in Article 8 modifies that agreement, it would put the engineers and the fire- men on a different basis than the other organizations which operate under this agreement of 1908? Mr. Cadle: Only so far as the pay for the actual time is concerned ; that would be the only change — it would not change the rule at all, the rule would still apply. We are not asking to have the rule abrogated by any means, we are just simply asking the one proposition that the men will be paid continuous time when they are tied up. Mr. Sheean : That is, the only effect would be that duiing tlie time which the law says they shall rest, they shall continue to draw pay! Mr. Cadle: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean: There isn't any railroad that you know of now in which the time is j)aid while the men are sleeping? Mr. Cadle: When tied up on the road? Mr. Sheean : Tied up under the law. Mr. Cadle : I think there are a few schedules that they pay continuous time when tied up. Mr. Sheean: Under the law? Mr. Cadle : Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean: Can you tell us just what road that is, Mr. Cadle? Mr. Cadle: No, I cannot, but I am quite certain we have got in this book — I think I noticed one or two roads where they have continuous time. Mr. Sheean : And to that extent they modify this agreement of 1908? Mr. Cadle : No, there is no modification of the agreement at all, any more than tlie companies agree to pay the men when they tie them up on the road. Mr. Sheean: I wish you would take a minute of my re- 281 quest that you file at some time a reference to the schedule under which the men tied up under the law are paid during the time they are sleeping. Mr. Cadle : Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean : Now, under the last sentence of Article 7 and also under this Article 8, Mr. Cadle, provision is made for the paj^ment of continuous time. In the case of railroads which have provisions similar to the one in the Chicago & North Western shown at page 266 of this exhibit, which provides that firemen will be permitted, when necessary, to tie up for rest after twelve hours on duty — the second paragraph of the Chicago & North Western schedule, on that page 266 — it would be possible, would it not, in case a rule at all similar to your request became effective, that firemen might tie up and continue to draw con- tinuous time during all of the time that they were sleeping, and, upon resuming duty, go at once onto overtime? Mr. Cadle : I don 't know anything at all about that rule in the firemen's schedule. I don't know how it is to apply or any- thing of that kind. Mr. Sheean: You see the rule there before you in the exhibit? Mr. Cadle : Yes, sir, I see the rule. Mr. Sheean: Offered by Mr. Moore the other day as Exhibit 2, and in all schedules where there is a provision giving them the right to tie up for rest, if any such rule as this were adopted, they might tie up and draw pay while they were sleep- ing? ^ Mr. Cadle : If the company worked them fourteen or six- teen hours and they tied up under the Federal law, yes. Mr. Sheean : I am talking now about this particular rule. Mr. Cadle : I do not know anything about that rule. I do not know how it is going to apply. I had nothing to do with the making of that rule. I never saw it before, that I know of. I do not know how it applies on the Chicago & North Western Railroad. Mr. Sheean : But you do know that the schedule makes pro- vision whereby the fireman is permitted to tie up after twelve hours ? Mr. Cadle : I see it in the book here, yes. Mr. Sheean: That rule if found in any schedule, or any 282 similar rule, in connection with the i)roposal here made, would permit the tyin^ up of that entire crew; because you could not go on and oi)erate if one member of the crew exercised his option. Mr. Cadle : No, sir. Mr. Sheean: And all of that crew would then be on con- tinuous time while they were sleeping, would they not? Mr. Cadle : Do you mean if this rule that we have got was adopted? Mr. Sheean : In connection with this rule which remains in tlie schedule. Mr. Cadle : He would most undoubtedly be paid for it. Mr. Sheean : Now, in addition to that, drawing pay while he was actually sleeping, and being on continuous time, he would draw at overtime rates, would he not! Mr. Cadle : No, sir, I do not see where he would. Mr. Sheean : If a man is on continuous time, all of his time counts in detennining when overtime begins, does it not? Mr. Cadle : I do not think he would draw any overtime on that in'ojiosition, no, sir. Mr. Sheean : At the end of the trip, I mean. Mr. Cadle: No, sir, on all of those schedules — there are a great number of them on which they do not pay double time at all. They have got i)rovisions in there Mr. Sheean : But where anything is better in this schedule, it supersedes all such provisions, does it not? Mr. Cadle : Well, it is a question in my mind whether that would be better or not. Mr. Sheean: It is? Mr. Cadle: Yes. Mr. Sheean : But if it was better to draw time and a half after a lapse of ten hours, this submission of yours, if granted, would let you elect whether to take that or not? Mr. Cadle: No, it would take two parties to make a bar- gain. I might think I was entitled to it, and make out a trip ticket for it, but at the same time the company would not pay me for it if it was not covered by the schedule. Mr. Sheean: But, what I am asking is whether, with this provision in the schedule, there is anything in your submission, in Article 8, and the latter part of Article 7, that would i)revent the claim, or justify the refusal to allow continuous time. 283 Mr. Cadle : I do not know, sir. I do not know whether it would or not. Mr. Sheean: The next is Article 9, "Deadheading," in which provision is made that engineers and firemen deadheading on company business shall be paid the same rate and on the same basis as the engineer and fireman on the train on which they are deadheading. Mr. Cadle: Yes. Mr. vSheean: Does that contemplate that an engineer or- dered to report at the roundhouse, register, and go out on a particular train, shall draw the same preparatory time and the same terminal delay as the man running the engine on the train on which he deadheads? Mr. Cadle : Does it require the same Mr. Sheean: The same payment to the man deadheading that is made to the man who runs the engine. Mr. Cadle: That man would not have any preparatory time. He would not have any locomotive to prepare, if he was deadheading. Mj*. Sheean : He is required to register at the roundhouse — assuming that he is to go out on a particular train. Mr. Cadle : Well, he is supposed to report to someone that he is ready for business. Mr. Sheean : The rule provides that he shall draw the same rate, on the same basis, as the engineer on the train on which deadheading? Mr. Cadle: Yes. Mr. Sheean : Does that include the same allowance which is made by way of preparatory time Mr. Cadle: No, sir. Mr. Sheean: Or initial or terminal delay? Mr. Cadle : It might in the way of initial or final terminal delaj^, but I do not see where an engineer could claim any pay for preparatory time when he did not prepare anything, where he had no engine to prepare. He was deadheading. He was going on a passenger train or a freight train. Mr. Sheean : But your definition of preparatory time, Mr. Cadle, under Article 5, is that ])reparatory time will be the time engineers and firemen are required to be oh their loco- motives ? 284 Mr. Cadle: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean: Prior to time ordered to leave roundhouse or otlier point? Mr. Cadle : Yes, sir. The}^ might require a crew that was going to prepare — an engineer, you would require him to be around in sufficient time to prepare his engine. If you called him to deadhead he would not have any of this work to do, and you would call him to be down at the station in time to go on that passenger train, or freight train, consequently there would be no Mr. Sheean : Well, if he reports at the roundhouse he does draw the terminal delay, does he, getting from the roundhouse to the station? Mr. Cadle: Deadheading? Mr. Sheean: Deadheading. Mr. Cadle : No, I would not think so. Mr. Sheean: In case the train on which he deadheads stops to do any intermediate switching, does the man dead- heading get the same allowance for that as the engineer who is operating the train? Mr. Cadle : I would not think so. Mr. Sheean: If the train is late on leaving the terminal, suppose he is told to deadhead on the passenger train, and that passenger train is late in leaving the terminal? Mr. Cadle: If the company calls him to leave on that passenger train on time and the train is late, and there is any initial delay, he should be paid for it, yes, sir. Mr. Sheean: In addition to the time or miles of the trip? Mr. Cadle: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean : And if, as you answered yesterday, the train on which he is ordered to deadhead leaves 40 minutes late, but makes up that time by the end of the run, he gets initial ter- minal delay plus the miles on the run? Mr. Cadle: If he was a full hour — if he had complied with the rule; if the rule was one full hour, he would be paid for it, yes, sir. Mr. Sheean: AVell, Mr. Cadle, is there any provision in this submission here for the one full hour? Mr. Cadle: No, sir. 285 Mr. Sheean: He is allowed the initial terminal delay in- dependent of the time or miles of the trip ? Mr. Cadle: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean: So that, on a deadheading trip, if the train on which he started out, started out 40 minutes late, he would have that as an arbitrary, and if it made it up on the run he would have that in addition to the miles of the run! Mr. Cadle: If the company called that man to report for duty and stood him around a station a night or a day waiting for a passenger train, they would pay him for it under that rule, 5^es, sir. Mr. Sheean: Even though the time was made up by the passenger train, and he reached the point at which he was to take up a train or engine on return trip — even though he reached that point on time? Mr. Cadle : Yes, sir, because it is a fair rule. The oflScer of the company that I was working under calls me ; if that train is late, he can set my time back, but if he calls me out of bed at 12 or 1 or 2 o'clock to deadhead on a passenger train, and that passenger train is three or four hours late, he should pay me for it, and that rule contemplates that he shall pay me for it. Mr. Sheean: Take the case, Mr. Cadle, that you spoke of the other dav, where there is a delav of 40 minutes in the sta^ tion, loading or unloading express, and that 30 or 40 minutes is made up on the run, so that the man going out deadheading, gets to the point where he is to take charge of an engine at just the time that he was called for, he still would have this allowance in addition to the miles of his run? Mr. Cadle: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean: And in case he is going out from this ter- minal, deadheading, he goes into liis caboose or into the caboose for this deadhead trip, and goes asleep, he does not know any- thing about the time that they start out, and arrives on time at the other end of the run, his pay w^ould be different, de- pending on whether that caboose got out on time or did not get out on time, if this rule were granted? Mr. Cadle: I don't know how you are running that crew. I would like you to state to me how you are running that crew. I don't quite get you. I have been called a good many times to deadhead and different things, but I cannot get your system of running it. 286 Mr. Shoean : Well, lie is called to deadhead out of the Chicago terminal at 8 o'clock tonight, and to go out 110 miles, go out on a particular train, which is due to leave at 8 o'clock tonight — freight train; he gets down there at 8 o'clock tonight; the caboose is there; he has nothing to do with reference to running the engine or the train as he only has to deadhead. Mr. Cadle: Why, he goes and fixes it up with the brake- man to fix him a bed, as a general thing. Mr. Sheean: Then he fixes up this bed at 8 o'clock? Mr. Cadle: Yes. Mr. Sheean : Then this train does not in fact get out until 11 o'clock; he goes to sleep at eight. Mr. Cadle: Yes. Mr. Sheean: His pay would be different, would it, dej)en- dent upon whether that train pulled out of that station here at 8 or 11, no matter what time it got to the other end of the run? Mr. Cadle: Well, I told you I didn't believe that the dead- head time api)lied — the terminal time applied to where men were not called in advance of a train. Mr. Sheean: But he is called here. There are two men called, both to go out at 8 o'clock, and one goes out at 8 and the other gets out at 11 ; the one man is deadheaded out 60 miles ; he leaves on time at 8 ; he goes out 60 miles ; the other man only goes out 40 miles ; does not start out until 1 1 . Now, you give the man w^ho has the three-hour terminal delay three more hours than you give the other man, do you? Mr, Cadle : Why, you pay him for the number of hours you keep him on duty, yes. Mr. Sheean: They both w^ent on duty at 8 o'clock, and they both got to the end of their deadhead run at the same time, at 1 o'clock in the morning. Mr. Cadle : There are a great many things in connection with that that I don't think you are taking into consideration at all. Mr. Sheean : Well, all I wanted Mr. Cadle: Now, wait a minute. I want to show you the way you can i^enalize a man. If you go to work and call an engineer to start on a run — he is first out on that spare board or extra board; he goes down there to go out, and you lay him around the yard, and run crews around him and everything else. 287 and at the end of the week he has not earned the share of money he is entitled to, because you have kept him lying around cabooses, and if you don't give him compensation the same as the man who is running tlie train, he won't earn any wages. Mr. Sheean: What I was trying to get at, Mr. Cadle, was, whether or not two men, both called to deadhead, both to leave at 8 o'clock and to deadhead out a distance which would get them out at 8 o'clock in the morning, if they got them both to tlie end of their deadhead trip at 1 o 'clock ? Mr. Cadle: Yes. Mr. Sheean: But, because in the one case the train left three hours later than it was intended to leave, it would draw more than the other men, though they were both on duty for the same time? Mr. Cadle : Yes, if the officers put them to work that way. Mr. Sheean: And even though they both were in the caboose at 8 o'clock here in Chicago! Mr. Cadle: Yes. Mr. Sheean: At the same hour? Mr. Cadle: Yes. Mr. Nagel : Mr. Cadle, so far as I understand, the basis of the charge is either time, mileage or character of service? Mr. Cadle: Yes. Mr. Nagel : Now, in the case which has just been put to you, it seems to me you have a new element; there is no addi- tional time, because the train arrives at the proper hour; there is no additional service, because he sleeps, on tlieir theory, and there is no additional mileage, for the distance is the same. Mr. Cadle : No, sir. Mr. Nagel : Where is your basis for an additional charge? Mr. Cadle : It is on the terminal delay. If they call a man three hours before the train is due to leave, the agreements pro- vide that he shall be paid ; this rule provides that he shall be paid for that three hours. Now then, he is held three hours. It is a penalty rule for the company not to call a man until they need him. Mr. Nagel : It is true he is delayed three hours at that end, but the three hours are made up to him at the other end. Where is the basis for the claim? Mr. Cadle: Because, the rule provides that this time shall 288 be paid separate and distinct from any other mileage or time made on the trip. Mr. Nagel : Well then, do you endorse that rule ? Mr. Cadle: Sir? Mr. Nagel : Do you endorse that rule! Mr. Cadle : We have got a rule of that character in a great many ditferent schedules. Mr. Park: You mean, Mr. Cadle, you have a rule which permits you to be paid for deadheading, but not a rule exactly similar to this ? Mr. Cadle: Yes. Mr. Park: Have you got a rule similar to this? Mr. Cadle : We have rules where men are paid a terminal delay allowed with the deadheading; they have a deadheading rule and then they have a rule that they will be paid any terminal delay that there may be on the run, or any overtime. Mr. Sheean : Mr. Cadle, what road is it that pays terminal delay in addition to deadheading? Mr. Cadle : I did not say what road there was. I told him there were roads that had a rule of that character. Mr. Sheean: Well, Mr. Cadle, the same as this other request, at your leisure, give us a reference to the schedule of any road or roads which allows terminal delay as an arbitrary, in addition to the allowance for deadheading? Mr. Cadle: I will not say "arbitrary," because you in- jected that word into it. That word has not been used in all of our cross-examination on this question, — the word ''arbitrary" has not been used. Mr. Sheean: I will withdraw the word if the word ''arbi- trary" is offensive, and will ask you to file a reference to any schedule which provides, that, in addition to the deadhead time, separate and distinct from it and irrespective of time or miles, there shall be a terminal delay allowance. Mr. Cadle : I will not agree to furnish you anything of that kind, but I will agree to furnish a schedule on the question that Mr. Park asked me. Mr. Sheean: I understood Mr. Park's question to be an allowance for terminal delay separate and distinct from the deadheading. Mr. Cadle: No; ho asked me if there was anv schedule 289 that allowed terminal delay on deadhead service, and I answered him, Yes. Mr. Sheean: Well, then, Mr. Cadle, if you can file a refer- ence to a schedule which makes provision for the allowance of terminal delay, in case of deadheading, except where it runs into overtime, I wish you would do that. Mr. Cadle: I will furnish you the rule Mr. Stone: If I may inject here just a moment, to save time, and save taking a whole lot of testimony, I will read a rule into the record at this time, if I may be allowed to do so. Mr. Sheean: I haven't any objection. Mr. Stone: Chicago, Milwaukee & St. Paul schedule, Ar- ticle 14, reads in part: "Engineers deadheading on freight trains will be x^aid ini- tial terminal delay time, the same as the crew they are dead- heading with." Mr. Sheean: Will you read the Initial Terminal Delay Rule, the same as the crew they are deadheading with 1 Mr. Stone: That answers the question, as I understand, which you are discussing. Mr. Sheean: No, no; because the initial terminal delay there, I think you will find, is in case it runs into overtime.. Just so that w^e may have the two rules together, I would like to have read in connection with that the rule to which it refers. Mr. Stone: I shall be very glad to. ** Article IX. Terminal Delayed Time. A. On the Chicago & Milwaukee Division and on all runs of ninety (90) miles or over ' ' Mr. Sheean: Passenger now, or freight? Mr. Stone: It is terminal delayed time. I have not got quite through yet. ''A. On the Chicago & Milwaukee Division and on all runs of ninety (90) miles or over, engineers in passenger and freight service, except work and construction, shall be allowed terminal delayed time for all time they are delayed at initial terminal, provided the time delayed is one hour or more. When delayed time at initial terminal is paid, trip time shall commence at the actual leaving time of the train. Delayed time will be paid pro rata on the basis provided for overtime." ^90 So it is iindoiil)t«'dly separate and distinct from the other time. Mr. Sheean: On runs of ninety miles or over, and one hour or over, of delay. Is that all of the rule? Mr. Stone: No, it is (juite a lon^- rule, and it makes some exceptions at terminals. Uo you want the whole rule? Mr. Sheean: I would like to have it, yes. Mr. Stone: I shall be glad to read it. "Terminal switchiui;' time and terminal delayed time mav be computed collectively. "B. Except at Coburg, Ottumwa Junction, Montevideo, Chicago and Milwaukee Terminal Districts, where special agreements exist, the following will govern: "Initial terminal delayed time will accrue from the time called to dei)art and will cease when train starts upon the track it is^nade up on. If, after starting, the train is stopped, initial terminal delayed time will continue until such time as the train actually starts and is not thereafter stopped in the terminal." That is the full rule. Mr. Sheean: Mr. Cadle, speaking yesterday of initial ter- minal delay, you stated that initial terminal delay is the time you are held in terminal after the time fixed for your train. I assume by that you meant the present terminal rule. Mr. Cadle: Yes. Mr. Sheean: Is there in any schedule now, so far as you know, a provision for counting as part of the terminal delay the time which is consumed in going from the roundhouse to the outer switch? Mr. Cadle: Yes, there are railroads which fix the time. Mr. Sheean: They fix the time? Mr. Cadle: Yes. Mr. Sheean: Even where no actual delay occurs? Mr. Cadle: Yes. Mr. Sheean: And counting all the time used in the neces- sary operation from roundhouse to outer switch? Mr. Cadle: No; there is a schedule. Those Canadian schedules provide that there shall be fifteen minutes used be- tween the time they prepare their engine and to go to the yard-^ — ^ 291: Mr. Sheean: But in this joroposition you count all of the time as delay, whether there be any actual delay or not, do you Tjot? Mr. Cadle: Yes. Mr. Sheean: There is no schedule that has that clause, is there, counting as delay all of the time necessarily used in going from roundhouse to outer switch? Mr. Cadle: There are schedules that provide for paying the man some kind of pay for all the time that he is at the tei'minal. Mr. Sheean: Is there any rule which calls or classifies as terminal delay all of the time used in going from roundhouse to outer switch? Mr. Cadle: There are schedules that allow an hour. Where they allow an hour for a man to be on duty, one hour before leaving time, there are schedules that pay that man from the time he leaves the pit track, if he does not go out in one hour, or at the time fixed, that he is paid overtime rates for that. Mr. Sheean: That is, an allowance is made in the sched- ule to cover the necessary and proper time consumed in get- ting from the roundhouse to the outer switch. That is, they have recognized on those roads that some time will be used there. Some fix it at an hour and others at other periods of timef Mr. Cadle: No, they do not fix any hour to get from the roundhouse. There are two schedules that specify that fifteen minutes shall be used between the roundhouse and the outer switch. Mr. Sheean: For the purpose of computing overtime the schedules make some pro\T.sion that initial terminal delay shall not accrue until some period of time is taken up in moving the train there. You have spoken of the two Canadian roads as allowing fifteen minutes, and others as allowing an hour. Now, is there any schedule which counts as terminal delay all of the time from the time the engine starts from the roundhouse to the outer switch? Mr. Cadle : They do if they are out a specified number of hours. Some schedules say thirty minutes and some one hour, and some fortv-five minutes. 292 Mr. Sheean : I am trying to get an answer to just the one question. Mr. Cadle : I know what you are trying to get, and I know w^hat I am trying to answer. Mr. Slieean: The single point I am trying to develop is whether any schedule makes the same provision which you pro- pose here, that all the time used from roundhouse to outer switch shall be considered terminal delay. Mr. Cadle: Well, I presume you could find that in some of these schedules. You can find almost anything. Mr. Sheean : I wish you would make a diligent search for that, and if you find it, give us a reference to that. Mr. Stone : To save bringing it up later, I will read it into the record right now, if I may. The Chairman: All right. Mr. Stone: (Reading.) "Canadian Northern Railway. Effective October 1, 1912. ''Article I. * * * (D) Passenger Service. Terminal delay commences when train arrives at its initial terminal as shown on time table. Outbound trains will be paid from the time due to leave shop track until departure of train. Inbound trains will be paid from time of arrival at station until forty- five minutes after arrival on shop track. This in addition to actual road mileage made. *'(E) Freight Service. Road mileage commences and ends at outer switch of terminal yard. Outbound trains will be paid from the time they leave shop track or time called for imtil arrival at outer switch. Inbound trains will be ])aid from the time of arrival at outer switch until forty-five minutes after arrival on shop track, in addition to actual road mileage made. Outer switch means the switch used in heading into the yard." Mr. Sheean : Mr. Cadle, turning to this deadheading rule, does this rule contemplate the payment of time at the rate here provided where an engineer or a fireman deadheads to exercise his seniority rights! Mr. Cadle : I would say no. Mr. Sheean : Under what provision of this rule would you say that there was an exception in that case? 293 Mr. Cadle: The schedules in effect on all these railroads, on tliat particular point, have been the work of a good many years,- and all of those schedules have rules fixing that point that you are speaking on now. They have a rule which specifies how that deadhead rule shall apply. There are a number of those schedules that provide that a man will not be paid when he is deadheading to exercise his seniority right to run. Mr. Sheean: Then, it has been recognized as being nec- essary to provide specifically in the schedule that he shall not draw this pay when exercising his seniority right? Mr. Cadle : It has been, yes. Mr. Sheean: And in the absence of any such provision here, what is there about this submission that would give the roads the right to retain that? This supersedes all less favor- able rules. Mr. Cadle: I do not understand that this Board of Arbi- tration is going to manufacture all of those rules, or I do not presume that when they hand down their award they are going to put them all out of commission. It will be necessary after they get the awards, to get them put into effect; and I have always found that the engineers, and the company, on those deadhead propositions, have always been very fair. They have always been able to work out a rule. Mr. Sheean: And the deadheading rules on the different roads vary to meet the local conditions on those different roads ? Mr. Cadle: Yes. Mr. Sheean : So that, at the present time, these deadhead- ing rules as provided meet the local situation, and have been, as you say, fair? Mr. Cadle: Yes. Mr. Sheean: The next article is as to hostlers, and pro- vides that at points where an average of six or more locomo- tives are handled within twelve hours, day or night, hostlers shall be maintained. In the case of a helper engine, making say three trips a day up a grade and back to the foot of the grade, and the helping crew relieved at the end of each of those trips, and the engine handled at the end of each of those trips, three 294 times in and three times out (hiring the day, wouhl that rule require the maintenance of a hostler at that point? Mr. Cadle : No, sir. . Mr. Sheean: Where six engines are handled, do you count an engine both in and out? Mr. Cadle : No, it looks to me, that under that rule, if you had during a day six engines that were to be handled at that terminal, you would provide a hostler, but if there were not six engines Mr. Sheean: It means six ditferent engines! Mr. Cadle : Oh, I should say so, yes. Mr. Sheean: Mr. Cadle, that doesn't agree with the inter- pretation Mr. Cadle: (Interrupting): AVhich you place on it. Mr. Sheean: No, which the organization which you repre- sent ])laced upon the rule when you were asked as to the meaning. Mr. Cadle: I don't know anything about what the organi- zation Mr. Sheean: Didn't you participate in replying as to the intent and purpose of the rule, when questions were asked about it, or did you Mr. Cadle: I didn't quite get the question. (Question repeated bj^ the reporter.) Mr. Cadle : No, I would not say I did. While I was at the conference a portion of the time, I was away the greater part of the time. Mr. Sheean : For the purpose of refreshing your recollec- tion, Mr. Cadle, wasn't the question asked, under Article 10: "Is an engine handled in and out during a twelve-hour period counted as one or two, for the purpose of this rule?" And wasn't the answer to that question, ''Two"? Mr. Cadle : I don't know, sir. Mr. Sheean: And if that answer was given you do not agree to that as the proper interpretation of this rule ? Mr. Cadle: I would not say that I do not agree; but you wanted to know what I thought about what constitutes six engines and asked me if handling the same engine twice — you might handle an engine going out on a run in the morning and you might handle it coming back in the evening, on an assigned run, and I would not count that two engines, while he handled that 295 engine twice. I do not think that is the intent of the rule. I believe the rule contemplates where there are six crews or engineers coming in there that are taken care of ; they may handle them two or three tunes in one day ; but you M^ould have to have your six engines there. Mr. Sheean: Six crews, then, you mean? Mr. Cadle : Sometimes we have two crews with one engine, so we would not very well inject the crews into it. We will talk about the engines. Mr. Sheean : If you did have three crews which handled six engines, that would require a hostler to be maintained at all such points I Mr. Cadle : If they handled the six engines — if you had six engines — we mean six engines — that is what it specifies, it don't say seven, it don't say three; but it says six; now, you might have six engines there and he might handle one of those engines three or four times a day, but that would only count as one engine, the way I understand it. Mr. Sheean: Although he handled that one engine just as many times and did as much work in and about that engine as if six different engines came in during the same period of time? Mr. Cadle : No, I don't look at those cases that way at all. I have explained to you very clearly how I understand the rulp. I don't know that I could say anything further on it. Mr. Sheean : Well, now, Mr. Cadle, the matter of the man- ner of hostling engines varies greatly in this Western territory, doesn't it? Mr. Cadle: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean: And just what do you mean by ''hostler" — you say that ''hostlers" shall be maintained? Mr. Cadle : I believe in my direct testimony I stated what constituted a hostler. Mr. Sheean : Well, if you did, Mr. Cadle, I don't remember it and I would like to know, just what, under this rule, is the definition of "hostler." Mr. Cadle: I stated that there was hostler service where they would relieve the engineers at the station, and those hos- tlers would draw the train out of the station and they would take the engine to the roundhouse. Now, those are what they call road hostlers, outside hostlers. They are qualified men, men 296 that are capable of making main line movements. There are hostlers that handle the enjii^ines at the pit, that supply the engines with coal, water and sand, and have their fires cleaned, put them in the roundhouse, take them out, place them on a designated track — the engineers are relieved from performing that character of hostler service. Mr. Sheean : Now, at small points, a great variety of duties are performed by men in connection with the care and han- dling of engines, after the completion of their road trips, are there not? Mr. Cadle: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean: At some points they handle engines in and out of the roundhouse, in connection with a great deal of other work, seeing that the sand, water and coal is supplied? Mr. Cadle: There are very few where they handle engines in and out of the roundhouse. Mr. Sheean: Well, who does that; what would you call the man who handles the engines in and out of the roundhouse? Mr. Cadle: You are speaking about the engineer? Mr. Sheean: No, the hostlers, I said. Mr. Cadle: Oh, hostlers. Yes, you have got hostlers who handle those engines in and around the roundhouse. Mr. Sheean: The man who handles the engine on and off the cinder pit is a hostler? Mr. Cadle : Generally, yes, sir. Mr. Sheean: The man who cleans and knocks the fire is a hostler? Mr. Cadle: No, they have fire knockers; men that they employ for cleaning those fires and the ash pans, and there are some places where the hostler and his helper will clean the fire. It is their duty to clean the fire. Mr. Sheean: At the present time? Mr. Cadle: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean: Under this rule, if granted, could the hostler provided for in this rule be called upon to do the work of clean- ing or knocking fires? Mr. Cadle: I don't know, sir. Mr. Sheean: You say that hostlers shall be maintained? Mr. Cadle: Yes, sir. 297 Mr. Sheean: Could a hostler, maintained nnder this rule, be called upon to do that work? Mr. Cadle: That I don't know. Mr. Sheean: Well, at many points hostlers do that work and clean ash pans? Mr. Cadle: The hostler very seldom cleans the ash pans. There are places where they may have a few engines, a very light job, where the hostler will clean the fires and his helper will clean the ash pans. Mr. Sheean: Do the hostlers now ordinarily spot the en- gines and perform the work of supplying the engines with fuel, sand and water ? Mr. Cadle: I don't think so. Mr. Sheean: Who does that? Mr. Cadle: Wli}", they generally have a laborer. I have seen them spotted at cars; I have seen engines standing spotted at coal docks, where they shoveled coal onto them at nights. I have seen them standing alongside of cars on side tracks where they shoveled the coal on. They generally have a man, a watch- man or some one, to do that work. Mr. Sheean: If this rule were granted, railroad companies could still employ men as watchmen to do that work? Mr. Cadle: I don't suppose the hostlers would have any objection to his shoveling the coal on. Mr. Sheean: Or spotting of the engine? Mr. Cadle: The watchman doesn't spot any engines. Mr. Sheean: Who does that now? Mr. Cadle: Why, the engineer, where they don't have any hostlers. Mr. Sheean: Where they have hostlers? Mr. Cadle: The hostler spots the engine, generall3^ He is supposed to spot the engine and place it on the turn-table. Mr. Sheean: Does he perform the work of supplying fuel, water, sand and supplies? Mr. Cadle: I don't know, sir, whether there are any places where they do it or not. Mr. Sheean: Now, the men who do this work of various kinds in connection with the care and the handling of an engine, both for the road trip and after it ends the road trip are now supplied from various departments, are they not? 298 Mr. Cadle: I don't know very much about that. That comes under the firemen's agreement. Mr. Sheean: Do you know of cases where, when there are but a small number of engines, the roundhouse foreman will make a few movements of the engine in connection with his general duties! Mr. Cadle: I know places where they christen him ** Roundhouse foreman," but he gets a hostler's pay for it, just the same. Mr. Sheean : And he may do the work of moving one or two engines during the day ? Mr. Cadle: Yes; they generally select an engineer or a fireman for that position. Mr. Sheean: Does your proposal contemi)late that one selected as a hostler can be called upon to do any of this other work which is now done by this roundhouse foreman? Mr. Cadle: I don't know^ anything in this proposition there that would prevent it. Mr. Sheean : So that, if a rule similar to this were granted, it is your understanding of the rule, that the railroad company in paying a hostler's rate, in case there was but two hours' work, actual hostler's work, to be done at the point, might, for that rate of pay, call upon that man to do this other work that has been described here? Mr. Cadle: I do not think there is any railroad that employs hostlers where they have but two hours' work to per- form a day. They don't do that. I don't know of any road. Mr. Sheean: What do they employ now where they have but two hours' work? Mr. Cadle : They have an engineer and fireman handle the engine, and a great many recompense them for it. Mr. Sheean: Handle the engine from where to where? Mr. Cadle : Do all of the duties performed by a hostler. Mr. Sheean : Now, that is what I would like to get at, Mr. Cadle, if I can, as to what the duties of a hostler are? Mr. Cadle: Well, I have given you — I have defined them as closely as I possibly can, and I have no additions to make to the hostler. Mr. Sheean : At points where six engines are handled, Mr. Cadle, does this proposition contemplate that the employes han- dling the engines be paid the hostler's wages? 299 Mr. Cadle: The railroad companies now have — a great many of tliem have agreements with their engineers by which they shall handle Mr. Sheean : I am talking now about this proposal. Mr. Cadle: I don't know that that is going to interfere with the rules you have already got in effect. I don't know that. Mr. Sheean : Well, if this proposal is more favorable than the other, it will interfere, won't it? That is what I want to get at, Mr. Cadle, whether or not it is contemplated that an employe handling the engine be paid the hostler's wages? Mr. Cadle: No. The schedules provide that he shall be paid the same rate of pay for handling the engines that he would for handling the train that he was assigned to. They do not change the rate of pay per hour. If I will allow you an hour for liandling the engine, and you are on a run that pays freight rates, you will get one hour at freight rates. Mr. Sheean : Well, I have in mind, Mr. Cadle — and I would like to have that cleared up if we can — the case of these branch lines where we say there are one or two engines. The engineer and fireman make delivery at a designated track, just as you would in a large terminal, and the general handy man knocks the fire and does all the other work, and does actually move it from this point to this little roundhouse, does all of the other labor that I have told about here ; under this proposal, would this man at these points on branch lines, draw the hostler's rate I Mr. Cadle : No, sir, he would draw the rate of pay — if he were required to perform that service he would draw the rate of pay that he was drawing on his daily run — on his run that he came in on. Mr. Sheean: Assuming, though, Mr. Cadle, that the en- gineer does not do any hostling at all on this branch line, but simply leaves his engine (as he would at a treminal) at a desig- nated point, and that the handy man at this point who puts on all the supplies, and the coal and the water and everything else, does move this single engine across the turntable, if you please, or in and out of the caboose? Mr. Cadle : Under the engineers ' proposition here, the com- pany have a right to expect that engineer to deliver that engine some place. Mr. Sheean : Does the engineer, under your proposal, claim 300 the right also to do this hostler's work? What I am trying to get at, Mr. Cadle, is whether the company will still have the right to do the thing that it is now doing — having a handy man at these points to do all of this work. Mr. Cadle: If the handy man does all of the work, the engineer will have no claim for pay at all, because he does not perform any service. The handy man is doing it all. Mr. Sheean : Will that handy man, because of his hostling that engine, actually moving it under steam once or twice a day, Hffder your proposal be entitled to this hostler's rate of pay? Mr. Cadle : I think he will, yes, sir. Mr. Sheean : So that all our monthly men — if we have any — on these branch lines, who perform general work, at an agreed monthly salary, will have to go on this per diem rate of hostlers. Mr. Cadle: If you put them on as hostlers, and you put that rule in effect, and they perform the duties of a hostler, they should be paid according to that rate. Mr. Sheean : Well, if at any time during their duties they move an engine under steam, they will have to take this hostler's rate? Mr. Cadle: No, no, no. I have seen men move engines and run them in the pit, and every place else. We do not want that at all. Any man that gets on an engine to move her about there, that is the company's business and theirs; but if you employ a hostler to handle these engines at terminal points, that rule will apply. Mr. Sheean: Well, supposing we still hire a foreman of that shop, and in connection with his work he does move this engine from the place where the engineer leaves it across the pit, and does that regularly every day, thirty days in the month, will that foreman go on this scale of hostler's pay? Mr. Cadle : Well, you will have a grievance with the fire- man now. You are asking the questions that I do not know very much — this hostler's proposition; but you ask me what that rule means, and I will trv to tell you. Mr. Sheean: Well, let us get over then onto this main line, where you claim jurisdiction. How much of a main line movement — what length of main line movement would be essen- tial to put him on this main line movement rate of pay? Mr. Cadle : I do not think there should be any limit at all. Mr. Sheean: So that if an hostler ordinarily working in 301 the yard, in order to get coal or water, has to cross a main track — the Y — the yard — has to cross a main track, the hostler who moved at any time on that main track would take that main line rate of pay? Mr. Cadle: If he made a main line movement, yes. You can hit him just as hard on that switch crossing over there as if he were out ten miles. Mr. Sheean : And that is intended in this proposition, that in cases where an hostler in connection with this regular work moves an engine at any time on any part of the main line he is to receive the rate of pay here fixed? Mr. Cadle: Yes, sir; that is the intent of it if he makes main line movements. Mr. Sheean : And a shop foreman making any such move- ment on a branch line, if that is the main line of that branch, would also receive this, would he? Mr. Cadle: If the shop foreman was judged competent by the Mr. Sheean: Well, taking the case of a branch, where there are two runs a day, but it is the main line of that branch railroad, any man who crossed any part of that road with an engine would draw this engineer's rate of pay? Mr. Cadle: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean : Even though that was this three-mile branch of the Burlington that I talked of the other day? Mr. Cadle: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean: And even though there was only one engine on the entire branch? Mr. Cadle: Yes. Mr. Sheean: That is what the rule means as printed? Mr. Cadle : That is my understanding of it, sir. Mr. Sheean : And that hostler under this Article 10 would also be entitled to time and a half if, counting his time continu- ously from the time he reported until he was relieved, he had a spread of more than ten hours? Mr. Cadle: Yes, sir. That is what the rule says. Mr. Sheean: Now, in that part of the rule, Mr. Cadle, which provides that, ' * Should hostlers be required to remain on duty after designated meal hours, one hour will be allowed as overtime ' ' ? 3U2 Mr. Cadle: Yes, sir. Mr. Slieean: That takes the overtime rate, I assume? Mr. Cadle: No, I would not think so. Mr. Sheean: Well, is that one hour thus allowed added on to the other time that he works, in order to determine the comi)utation of overtime? Mr. Cadle : I would not think so. Mr. Sheean: That is allowed independently then of the computation of all other time? Mr. Cadle: You have special rules that provide for a dinner hour and how they shall be treated, and how they shall be paid. Mr. Sheean: With hostlers? Mr. Cadle: Well, they have some schedules. Mr. Sheean: I assume, like the rest of it, this would su- persede them if allowed, would it not, Mr. Cadle? I am trying to find out what would be done under this rule. Mr. Cadle: It is better, there is no question. Mr. Sheean: There is no question about that. Well, as- suming that this rule were granted here, this one hour were counted as overtime, this meal hour proposition that I just referred to, is that also added on to the other working time to determine what the total time on duty is? Mr. Cadle: Well, it should be, yes, under the rule. Mr. Sheean: So that it is allowed here as a separate item, and then also is considered in determining his total length of service ? Mr. Cadle: Yes. Mr. Sheean: Tt might, under this rule, be paid for twice, then, Mr. Cadle ? Mr. Cadle: Not if vou relieve the man, it won't. Mr. Sheean: No, but in case they were relieved, as pro- vided in this rule, it would be paid for twice. Mr. Cadle: No, no. If the dinner hour — if that is paid for, and that is one part of the day's work which shall be paid at the hour rate, it is my judgment then that the overtime rate should be made separate and distinct from that one hour, be- cause you have paid the man once for that one hour at the daily rate. You asked me if the time and a half Mr. Sheean: Well, do you compute the hostler's time con- tinuously ? 303 Mr. Cadle: I don't know what tliey do say about it. I told you I did not know very much about a hostler. No, sir, I don't -see that there is anything in here about computing it. Mr. Sheean: Is it your understanding this would not be computed continuously, this hostler rule. Mr. Cadle: Nothing in the rule says it shall be computed continuously. Mr. Sheean: Well, then, do you understand that if they were relieved for one hour, from, say, twelve to one each day, that there would be a total spread of eleven hours, and ten hours to be paid for, under this rule? Mr. Cadle: I don't know a thing in the world how they are paying hostlers. Mr. Sheean: Well, I am trying to find out about the paying under this rule. Mr. Cadle: Well, you had better take that up with Mr. Carter's men, the hostler proposition, because it is their rule, and they are supplying men for it, and it is unfair for you to ask me to define Mr. Sheean: Well, now, Mr. Cadle, I don't want to ask you anything that is unfair, but I assume that when this pro- posal provided that the main line or road hostlers are to be. paid the same as engineers on switching service, and that such positions shall be filled from the ranks of the engineers, that that part of this rule was strictly the engineers' rule. Am I wrong in that assumption? Mr. Cadle: Provided you can get — provided they pay the engineers' rate. Mr. Sheean: Well, do you mean that it ought not — that you do not feel qualified to answer questions under this rule, Mr. Cadle? I do not want to press it, if you don't. Mr. Cadle: I do not feel that I am .competent to decide what that rule means, because a hostler comes under the juris- diction, as a general thing, of the firemen's organization, and I am not so familiar with them as I am with the engineers. Mr. Sheean: Well, are you able to tell, Mr. Cadle — I won't press it if you say you have not considered it — are you able to tell how this average is to be determined, provided for in the first part of the rule, ''at points where an average of six or more locomotives are handled within six hours, day or night, 304 hostlers shall be maintained," as to what period of time shall be taken in determining: this average? Mr. Cadle: Well, it appears as though the article provides periods of twelve hours. Mr. Sheean: You don't mean that if in a single twelve hour period there happened to be six engines there, that that would establish that point for all time, or do you? Mr. Cadle: That is what it says. Mr. Sheean: So that if at any point, within any twelve hour period, there were six engines handled, that would be established as a point where the railroads would have to supply and maintain a hostler? Mr. Cadle: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean: Mr. Cadle, this Article 15, as to the official record of Aveights on drivers; I assume that there is not any- thing ironclad about the bulletin feature of it, if you could agree upon some more satisfactory method? All that this re- quest is desig-ned to cover is that you shall have full and ade- (piate information as to the actual service weights on drivers, and you suggest the bulletining of it as the most desirable method ? Mr. Cadle: I presume that is all, that the engineers and firemen would like to have correct official weights of those en- gines. Mr. Sheean: Some roads, as I understand it, have that stenciled or designated in some way; but what you want is some uniform practice on the several roads that will be a mu- tually satisfactory way of furnishing accurate information in that respect? Mr. Cadle : Wliat the engineers and firemen are asking for, or have asked for, is to take the correct weight of those engines, and not be deceived in order not to pay according to the agree- ment. Mr. Sheean : Of course, that part of the rule is in connec- tion with the proposal of basing rates on weights on drivers? Mr. Cadle: Yes. Mr. Sheean : This Article 16, throwing switches and flag- ging, in the case of helper engines, is this rule designed or in- tended to make necessary the carrying of some member of a road crew in order to throw the switches and let the helper engine in at the end of its run! 305 Mr. Cadle: Where the road crews in helping service re- quire a flagman, the engineer and fireman want to be relieved of that. They also want to be relieved of throwing switches at any point. Mr. Sheean : I just wanted the application. Take a helper engine running up a grade of say ten miles, and it comes back, with the engineer and fireman going to the roundhouse. It comes back light down the grade. Mr. Cadle: Yes. Mr. Sheean: Is it contemplated that when it gets back from this pushing or helping service, there must be provided a flagman or some other employe to throw the switch to let that helper engine in onto the roundhouse track! Mr. Cadle : Well, that is a matter for the company to de- cide what it is. It is not for the engineers to decide. There are certain responsibilities. I could give my experience that I had Mr. Sheean : Mr. Cadle, I just want the interpretation and intent of the rule merely. The rule as worded is : "Engineers and firemen will not be required to throw switches, flag through blocks, or fill water cars." Now, as to the matter of the switch, is it the purpose and intent of this rule that with a helper engine completing its push- ing or pulling up the grade and returning to the foot of the grade, the fireman or engineer shall neither one of them open the switch, or be required to open the switch to let them into the yard? Mr. Cadle : That rule provides that they shall be relieved of that service. Mr. Sheean : It does so require I Mr. Cadle: Yes. Mr. Sheean: So that where pusher or helper engines are maintained, if this rule was granted, there would have either to be a switchman kept at this point constantly, or else a road man employed to ride up on the engine which is pushing, and ride back with it? Mr. Cadle: Yes. Mr. Sheean: This other part of the rule, that they shall not be required to fill water cars, was that intended to apply to 306 tank cars which are attached to the locomotive, to use as an emergency tender? Mr. Cadle : I do not know, sir. Mr. Slieean: Would it cover that sort of a situation! Mr. Cadle: I do not know. Mr. Sheean: Mr. Cadle, on that matter of final terminal delay, I want to ask just a question or two that I overlooked yesterday. The next to the last paragraph of Article 6 reads : "Final terminal delay in freight service shall begin when train arrives at switch leading from main line into yard, and shall end when engineer and firemen are relieved from duty ; pro- ^dded, that if from any cause trains are held out of yard, final terminal delay shall begin." Now, in a case where the yard is congested, and the train arrives at this outer switch as provided for here, how far up, under that rule, is it contemplated that the damming up of traffic shall apply to other crews? Mr. Cadle : Well, I do not know as there is any limit. Mr. Sheean : No limit at all? Mr. Cadle: No, sir. Mr. Sheean: So that, take the Chicago & North Western, for instance, if the first crew that got into the outer switch could not get in there, and then the next following crew was held up five miles back, and another one out at West Chicago, 22 miles back, all of those crews would draw terminal delay under this rule? Mr. Cadle: As I understand your question, there are trains between all of those places that cause this block? Mr. Sheean : If that makes any difference in your answer, you may assume it either way. Mr. Cadle: It would make a great deal of difference in my answer, Mr. Sheean: Just tell us the differences. Mr. Cadle : If the train was up against the block, detained here in the yard, and there was a train lined up here on the main track that could not get in on account of that line being block- aded, if that was the cause of the delay, the final terminal delay would be paid to all of those crews under that rule. 307 Mr. Slieean : Supposing that instead of letting it stand on the main track, they put one train on a siding, five miles out, and they are held at that siding because the terminal is blocked. Mr. Cadle: Yes. Mr. Sheean: Does that man draw the terminal delay? Mr. Cadle: No, sir. Mr. Sheean : So that it is a question of putting them on a side track that would determine whether or not the terminal delay accrued? Mr. Cadle: If any delay would accrue to a train laid on the side track, that man's time would be computed from road service, and not terminal delay. Mr. Sheean : For road service he would get it only in case it went into overtime? Mr. Cadle: Yes. Mr. Sheean : Then out here five miles they have one train on the main track, and they put another train, or the second sec- tion of that train, in on the side track. They are only out eight hours on duty, and they are both held out two hours. The one which was on the main track would draw two hours more than the man who was put on the siding? Mr. Cadle : He would, if it was caused by that — if he w^as held. Mr. Sheean : They are both held. I am assuming that they both come up Mr. Cadle : You have got one man on a side track. He is in clear. He has got no responsibilities. He can take his shoes off. The other man is on the main track, and his delay is caused on account of the congestion in the terminal. He will come in under terminal delay, and if the other man earns any overtime, it will be after his time limit is up. Mr. Sheean: AMiether or not this terminal delay would back up a particular distance on a particular road would depend upon whether or not they were fortunate enough to have sidings on which to put the men between here and West Chicago. If they went in on the siding they could avoid terminal delay, but if held on the main track, the railroad company would have to pay the men the terminal delay? Mr. Cadle: Yes. Mr. Sheean: And by this proviso, ''that if from any other 308 cause trains are held out of yard, linal terminal delay shall begin," it was contemi)lated that this might back up indefinitely, was it ? Mr. Cadle : Well, it might, but there is a great possibility that it would not. Mr. Sheean : Under this same rule, if a crew is held at the outer switch, so that a man is getting this terminal delay com- puted down to the time that he is relieved, does he draw that terminal delay in addition to the miles from the point that he is held, down to the point where he is relieved? Mr. Cadle : A number of the schedules deduct Mr. Sheean : No, I mean under this rule. Mr. Cadle: I do not know what this rule contemplates. You see as much of it as I do. Mr. Sheean: I have not been interpreting them as many 5"ears as you have, Mr. Cadle: I do not know. I tell you honestly, I do not know. Mr. Sheean: I just put the case to you, and I would like to have your opinion on it candidly. This crew is held out at the terminal switch, and that is five miles from the place where his train would be delivered on the track in the yard. He is held out there for a half hour. Then it takes him another half hour to get from there down to the point where he is relieved, running five miles in the meantime. He draws one hour's terminal delay, com})uted from the time that he got to the outer switch until he got to his destination. Does he also draw pay for the five miles Mr. Sheean : The provision is that this terminal delay shall which he runs in the last half hour? Mr. Cadle: I would not think so. be paid in addition to the time or mileage of the trip, does it not? Mr. Cadle: Yes. Mr. Sheean: And that five miles is a part of the mileage of the trip, isn't it? Mr. Cadle: Yes, sir, and you agree to pay for it. Mr. Sheean: And under this rule this one hour terminal delay is in addition to the time or mileage of the trip? Mr. Cadle: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean: In the cases you speak of, where I think you spoke of engineers sometimes taking the equipment from 309 the passenger station out some three or four miles or more to a yard, the schedule provisions, as a rule, make — I was going to say an arbitrary allowance — make provision for paying a certain number of miles for that service, don't they? Mr. Cadle : They have different ways of paying those men for backing those trains out of the station. Mr. Sheean: As a rule, by allowing them so many miles, or something of that sort? Mr. Cadle: Some of them allow them an arbitrary hour, some of them allow an arbitrary thirty minutes — not arbitrary — yes, I will use the word "arbitrary" — some of the roads pay at a mileage rate and some pay at an hourly rate, some pay thirtv minutes, and some of them an hour ; but thev have a fixed rate of pay, Mr. Sheean: Now, Mr. Cadle, in that sort of case, under this saving clause that ''Any rates of pay, including excess mileage or arbitrary differentials that are higher, or any rules or conditions of employment that are better" — under that clause, where certain mileage in schedules is now provided to cover the time between the depot and the roundhouse, would the ap- plication of this rule as to terminal delay, which requires the pajinent of all time from the passenger depot, if you please, to the roundhouse, separate and distinct from the mileage or time of the trip, — would you retain this arbitrary mileage al- lowed under the schedules, and, in addition thereto, receive pay for this terminal delay? Mr. Cadle : No, I think you would deduct the mileage. Mr. Sheean: Deduct the mileage? Mr. Cadle: Yes. Mr. Sheean : Now, under which clause of your proposition, Mr. Cadle, is there provision for deducting the mileage between passenger depot and roundhouse, or between outer switch and roundhouse, and not computed in the mileage of the trip? Mr. Cadle : The only answer I could give you to that ques- tion is the principle under which they are working now. There are a great many schedules where you earn an hour or the thirty minutes terminal delay, they will deduct, if there is mile- age, they deduct the mileages and the rules provide that it shall be done. 310 Mr. Sheean: I was wondering whether these rules made any such provision? Mr. Cadle : I could not tell you. Mr. Sheean: Have you seen any provision for the deduc- tion, to avoid double payment, in any of these proposals? Mr. Cadle: No, sir. Mr. Sheean: In each of the cases where that deduction is made, it is because in that particular rule there is a provi- sion authorizing its deduction, in order to avoid pa}dng twice for it? Mr. Cadle: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean: In the absence of such a specific provision in the schedule, payments of that sort cannot be avoided? Ml". Cadle: I think you will find some of the companies, where they have not a specific rule of that kind, where they do deduct tlie mileage, Mr. Sheean: They do have a specific rule? Mr. Cadle: Some of them do, and some of them do not. Mr. Sheean: Take that same saAdng clause you speak of here, in mountain territory, to which we adverted the other day, where one hundred miles is allowed for ninety-two or one hundred and eight for ninety-two, or one hundred and twenty- nine for one hundred and eleven, it is the purpose and intent of this proposal, that all of that arbitrary mileage or excess mileage should be retained under the saving clause? Mr. Cadle: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean: That is the intention, is it? Mr. Cadle: Yes. sir. Mr. Sheean : And then it is the intention to apply to that the increased rate of 10 per cent, which is provided for in an- other rule? Mr. Cjidle: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean : So that you retain both the differentials that are allowed in the present schedules, in the way of excess mile- age, and then also provide a new percentage differential, apply- ing it to the other arbitrarv? Mr. Cadle : It applies to the other arbitrary just the same as it does to the straight mileage. Mr. Sheean: So that, where, in any mountain territory, the difference between vallev and mountain rates has been 311 brought about by allowing greater miles in the mountain ter- ritory than in the valley territory, you. would still keep these constructive miles, under the saving clause? Mr. Cadle: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean: And then you would apply the diiferential in the rates to this constructive mileage as well f Mr. Cadle: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean: Just a moment, Mr. Cadle, on that fifth para- graph of Article 2, right under the rates, in which provision is made that the engineers and firemen will be paid the through freight rate, according to the class of engine, in pusher, helper, and mine run service; is it contemplated that the rates thus provided for, through freight rates, shall also include the through freight rules! Mr. Cadle: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean : So that all of the through freight rules which are provided, either in this submission or any of the schedules, if thev should be anv more favorable, will be extended to and applied to the pusher, helper, mine run, w^ork, wreck, belt line, transfer and all other unclassified services! Mr. Cadle: The intent of that rule is to pay those classes of service at through freight rates and all the rules. Mr. Sheean: And all the rules of through freight service? Mr. Cadle: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean: Now, does that include that automatic release pay, ip. the case of the pusher and helper 1 Mr. Cadle: If you have got an engineer assigned to a pusher job, he may make four or five trips a day. I don't think the rule would relieve that man automatically at the end of each trip, because these men, as a general rule, are assigned to per- form a certain amount of work, to help a certain number of trains, or for a certain number of hours. Their day's work is platted out for them, and I don't think the rule would apply to relieve a man automatically every time he came in, after helping a train up a hill and coming back. Mr. Sheean: Suppose at the foot of the hill is his terminal, under the automatic release the provision is ''Engineers and firemen arriving at terminal or end of run are automatically released; when used again, they begin a new day." Mr. Cadle: I have answ^ered the question. 312 Mr. Stone: What are you referring to, mine runs, or pusher and helper? Mr. Sheean: Pusher and helper. Mr. Stone: Is it not a fact that we wrote into the record of the second day's proceedings the fact that it did not apply to pusher and helper service — the Automatic Release? Mr. Sheean: That Article 7 did not apply? Mr. Stone: That automatic release feature did not apply. You will find it on page 104. Mr. Sheean: That is suburban and pusher and helper service. Mr. Stone: Pusher and helper, not mine run? Mr. Sheean: Now, as to mine run, perhaps, Mr. Stone, we may stipulate as to that, that it is the intent to apply the Auto- matic Release to mine runs. Mr. Stone: The Automatic Release applies to all the classes specified in Article 7, applies to everything except pusher and helper service, and suburban service; those three exceptions are made, and it is written in the record. Mr. Sheean: Mr. Cadle, you are familiar with mine run service; I believe you said you know, in a general way, at least, about mine runs. Mr. Cadle: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean: Now, I don't know that the Board is, and I wish you would tell just what is meant by mine runs, in this proposition. Mr. Cadle: You have assigned crews that serve the mines with empties, take the loads out, and they may draw them ten or twelve or fifteen or thirty miles into some yard where they are classified. Mr. Sheean: Now then, supposing there are mines ten miles out from Springfield, in one direction, five miles out in another, and six miles intermediate — that you make a separate trip to three or four mines during the day, bringing in these loads to this terminal, and assembling them into a through freight; under the application of the Automatic Release rule, one hundred miles or less would have to be paid for each one of those trips? Mr. Cadle: I don't know any place where you get these mine runs so quick as you state there. 313 Mr. Slieean: You spoke of one ten miles out, yourself, just a minute ago. Just what is the usual distance from the ter- minal ? Mr. Cadle: My understanding of a mine run is, that a fellow starts out with a cut of empties, he may take one hun- dred or one hundred and ten empty cars, and he will peddle those cars out, he will distribute them at the different mines, serving the mines, and if he can get back home within the pre- scribed ten hours, he has done a fairly good day's work for the company. You take the majority of these runs, he should be automatically released at the end of this run. Mr. Sheean : If he had to run through that terminal at any time — suppose there are mines on different sides of the terminal and he passes through the terminal, there would be an automatic release each time! Mr. Cadle : No, not where you have special rules in your schedules. Mr. Slieean: We haven't, in any schedule, any automatic release on mine runs. Mr. Cadle : We had a letter from the Managers ' Commit- tee stating all these schedules were in effect again, and we be- lieve we have them yet. Mr. Sheean : Tell me if you think there is any schedule in effect now, which provides for an automatic release in mine runs ? Mr. Cadle : I understand these mine runs — say that a rail- road company assigns a crew — and they very seldom ever assign a crew unless they have a day's work for it, a full day's work — they may pass through the terminal point in serving those mines, but would not be automatically released in a case of that kind. Mr. Sheean: Well, that is, Mr. Cadle, because of specific schedule provisions, is it not, authorizing the assignment to a day's work of a series of short runs, in and out of the terminals? Mr. Cadle: Where crews are assigned to mine runs, they are permitted to run through their terminals, back and forth, without affecting the rights of other men in the pool ser\dce. Mr. Sheean: Well, where, under this rule, Mr. Cadle, do you find any right to assign to a series of short runs, in and out of terminals, and thereby avoid an automatic release every time you come into the terminal? 314 Mr. Cadlo: I don't know, sir. I cannot answer your ques- tion. ^[r. Slieean: Is there in this submission anything that would autliorize an assignment wliich would permit a running in and out of terminals? Mr. Cadle: I do not see it. I am going to answer your questions just as I have answered similar questions all the way through ; these railroad officers and these railroads have worked for twenty-five years establishing rules, and I do not under- stand that this arbitration is going to set all of those rules aside. You have got a basic principle to work from. Mr. Sheean : And one of the basic principles to which you refer is that the officers should be permitted to make an assign- ment of a series of short runs in and out of terminals, provided they do not exceed one hundred miles or ten hours! Mr. Cadle: The schedule provisions at the present, the rules they are working under, where men are assigned to mine runs, they come into the terminals and get their dinner and go out and go to work again. Mr. Sheean: In order to clear up any possibility of any such claim being made as the one adverted to here yesterday, there would be no Objection, from your viewpoint, to write, in connection with any such rule as this, a statement that men may be assigned to a series of short runs in and out of terminals, without being automatically released? Mr. Cadle: There are such rules in effect at the present time. Mr. Sheean : I know there are ; and you think they are all right; that they ought to be continued? Mr, Cadle : Well, we have got a good many men that are assigned to those runs regularly, and they go in and out of these terminals. I don't know — I am not going to say what I think about your three switch engine proposition, but the of- ficer of the railroad company that operated that movement up there could be criticised as much as the engineers that put in the time. Mr. Sheean : Under this rule, Mr. Cadle, if an engineer is called to make a road trip, say a sixty mile road trip, way freight — let us say he is called at seven o'clock in the morning, and before starting out he assists in pushing a train out of the 315 yard for three miles, and it takes liim an hour to do that — then he returns and takes his train out, runs this sixty miles, com- pletes that ran in six hours, and is on duty altogether eight hours ; what would he receive ? Mr. Cadle: Under this proposition! Mr. Sheean: Yes. Mr. Cadle: Two days. Mr. Sheean: Two days? Mr. Cadle : Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean: Although the total miles run were sixty-five, we will say, if he went out a distance of five miles ; and the total time of his work was eight hours? Mr. Cadle: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean: Under this rule he would be entitled to two full days' pay? Mr. Cadle : KightfuUy so, for a man that would make that movement. Mr. Sheean : Total time on duty eight hours, and total miles run, sixty or sixty-three? Mr. Cadle: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean: Now, referring to the retention of the con- structive miles, in territory where they have it, and then the application of the 10 per cent increase to the rates and mileage thus obtained, is it the intention in that Article 2, Mr. Cadle, as to divisions where the grade is 1.8 per cent — is it the intention to apply this to all railroads, whether they are in mountain terri- tory or valleys, in case they have a grade of 1 .8 per cent f Mr. Cadle: I don't think so. • Mr. Sheean : It is only intended to apply in mountain terri- tory? Mr. Cadle: That is my understanding. Mr. Sheean : Now, then, how do you define mountain terri- tory? Mr. Cadle : Well, if we had all these engineers around here that are in mountain territory, they could define it for you. Mr. Sheean: If this proposition was modified so it read "on all divisions in mountain territory," how could one, who wanted to ascertain whether his railroad came under this rule or not, determine whether he was in mountain territory? Mr. Cadle : If the grade was 1 .8 per cent under this rule, it would be considered mountain territorv. 316 Mr. Shoean: Then, any railroad that has a grade of 1.8 per cent is considered in mountain territory? Mr. Cadle : In mountain service. Mr. Sheean: What is it? Mr. Cadle : If it is mountain service — if it is mountain ter- ritory. Mr. Sheean: Does the fact that there is a grade of 1.8 per cent on a division, make that a mountain division? Mr. Cadle : No, sir. You could put u]) coal on a chute and claim it for the entire trip Mr. Sheean : I mean on the main line. Mr. Cadle : I am just as technical as you are Mr. Sheean : I don 't want to be technical at all ; all I want to get at is where the main line has a grade of 1.8 per cent, does that automatically put it in mountain territory? Mr. Cadle : No, sir. This rule is gotten up, as I understand it, to fix a basis of 1.8 per cent in mountain service — in mountain service. Mr. Sheean: How is that territory, that mountain terri- tory, to be designated — where it is recognized in the present schedule, do you mean? Mr. Cadle: No, there are a number of roads that have mountain territory of a great many miles on certain divisions, and are railroads that that rule might apply on, that it does not apply on at the present time. Mr. Sheean : Just so there cannot be any misunderstand- ing about it, Mr. Cadle, could you specify that by the states, or by any descriptive designation as to railroads, as to which this would apply ; or parts of railroads on which it would apply ? Mr. Cadle : No, sir, I could not. Mr. Sheean: That ought to be done to avoid misunder- standings about it? Mr. Cadle: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean: You simply mean that you could not, at this time, outline just what they are? Mr. Cadle : I know where there are railroads with consid- erable grades not in mountain territory Take the Frisco Sys- tem out of Ft. Smith, up through these Balsam Mountains ; and you go to work and take the Kansas City Southern, there are a great many roads where there are Mallet engines used to get 317 the trains over those grades. I presume those grades are equal to 1.8 per cent. In those places the probabilities are that under that rule that would be considered mountain service. Mr. Sheean : But, if some road here in Illinois or crossing from Illinois to Iowa, had a grade of 1.8 per cent, crossing any of the Mississippi bluffs, that would not fall under this rulef Mr. Cadle: Oh, I would not consider so. You may find places where you have got a grade, where a train would roll over that, a short distance. We call those, in railroad parlance, sags. Mr. Sheean : But this rule, Mr. Cadle, as you understand it, was intended only to cover mountain territory f Mr. Cadle : Mountain service. Mr. Sheean : And you did not provide any definition of what is mountain service? Mr. Cadle : I could not do it. Mr. Sheean : You could not do it ? Mr. Cadle : No, sir. Mr. Sheean: Mr. Cadle, under this preparatory time fea- ture, I was, to just make sure there is no misunderstanding between you and me on that — in the case of a passenger train where the hostler brings the engine from the roundhouse down to the depot and the rules of that company provide that the engineer who is to take the train out shall be on his engine or at the depot — at the depot and on his engine five minutes before the train leaves the depot ; does he draw a half hour preparatory time ? Mr. Cadle : I think the rule is on a minute basis. Mr. Sheean: What is it? Mr. Cadle: Wouldn't he get one mile under the rule? Mr. Sheean: Well, I am asking you, Mr. Cadle, on the assumption that you know better than I do. As I read the rule it says he will be allowed 'thirty minutes preparatory time iri addition to all other time or mileage made on the trip, or day, provided that on lines of railroad where rules or schedules require them to be on duty more than thirty minutes before time ordered to leave roundhouse or other point, they will be allowed one hour's time, and when required to be on duty more than one hour, actual time will be allowed." Mr. Cadle : He would not be paid. 318 Mr. Sheean: "Pn'i)aratory time will be the time engineers and firemen are required to be on their locomotives, prior to time ordered to leave roundliouse or other jioint." Mr. C'adle: lie would not be ]iaid iindci- that nile for five minutes. Mr. Sheean : Would he be paid for ten minutes? Mr. Cadle: The rule provides thirty minutes. Mr. Sheean : In case he was on ten minutes before leaving time, would he be paid the thirty minutes ? Mr. Cadle: No. The Chairman: We will take a recess until 2 o'clock. (Whereupon, at 12 o'clock M., a recess was taken until 2 o'clock P.M.) After Recess. M. W. CADLE was recalled for further examination, and, having been previously sworn, testified as follows: Mr. Sheean: Mr. Cadle, at the time of adjournment we were speaking of prejiaratory time as applied to an engineer whose engine was brought to the depot by a hostler, where the outbound engineer put in ten minutes on his engine oiling up, and seeing that it was in readiness for the road trip. Do I understand that such an engineer would or would not be en- titled to preparatory time! Mr. Cadle: In my judgment it would make no difference whether he prepared the engine at the depot or the roundhouse or a designated track. If he prepared the engine, he would come under the pro\dsions of the rule. Mr. Sheean : And that irrespective of whether it was five minutes or ten minutes, or any other length of time i)reparatory to going out ? Mr. Cadle: Yes. Mr. Sheean: And any preparation, such as oiling, or ex- amining the injector, no matter whether it was three, five or ten minutes, would entitle him to the thirty minutes tim.e, irre- spective of the miles he might make? Mr. Cadle: If he prepared the engine. Mr. Sheean : I wish you would state just what you mean by ''preparing the engine." Would merely oiling up at this terminal or at the dei)ot cover it — oiling around? 319 Mr. Cadle: There are other duties to perform besides oiling up. Mr. Sheean: If he did only that? Mr. Cadle : There are a Avhole lot of things that tlie rules enumerate, that men are required to do before leaving a terr minal station. I know several duties that are expected of an engineer in preparing his engine for the trip. He has got to go and see that the hose is tightened up between the tank and the engine, he has got to look at the water, and he has got to see that the sand pipes are open, in proper condition to be used. There are a whole lot of things besides putting a little oii on the engine; because you can put all the oil they give you now on an engine in two minutes and a half if you have got a good can. Mr. Sheean: Assuming that everything is done except merely the oiling. In that situation would or would not the outgoing engineer be entitled to the preparatory time? Mr. Cadle: If the duties that he performed come within the meaning of preparing the engine, yes. Mr. Sheean: That is what I want to get at, whether or not merely oiling the engine, doing that only, would bring him within this rule? Mr. Cadle: If he prepared the engine and made all the repairs that were to be made. Mr. Sheean : I am assuming a case where there are no ' repairs. Or, let us take a concrete case of running an engine thi'ough and changing the crew en route. You know of such runs, I assume? Mr. Cadle: Yes. Mr. Sheean : Where the crew changes, but the engine goes through? Mr. Cadle: Yes. Mr. Sheean: Take a point where the train is scheduled to stop for five minutes. The engine is uncoupled from the train Mr. Cadle: Yes. Mr. Sheean: The incoming engineer takes it down a quar- ter of a mile to the water tank. At that point shop forces knock the fires and replenish the coal and replenish the water. At* 320 that point it is turned over to the engineer wlio is to take it on from that place. The outgoing engineer does oil around that engine, then backs it down to the station a quarter of a mile, couples it onto that train, and in the five, eight or ten minutes the same engine proceeds on its way. In that situation, is the engineer who goes on with the same engine entitled to the thirty minutes preparatory time under this rule! Mr. Cadle: Yes. Mr. Sheean : He is ! Mr. Cadle: Yes. Mr. Sheean: And in that case is the incoming engineer entitled to the terminal delay from the time at the station down to this water tank, a quarter of a mile away t Mr. Cadle: No, sir. Mr. Sheean: In the case I have assumed, the incoming engineer, after uncoupling the engine, takes it down to this water tank, and at the water tank the man who is to go on with the same engine relieves him. Mr, Cadle: Well, I presume under the rule that when the engineer came in on that engine his time would not cease until he turned it over to the other engineer. He would get paid up to that point, that is, the point of relief. Mr. Sheean: Yes, but the final terminal delay for engi- neers under Article 6 — ''Final terminal delay for engineers and firemen in passenger service shall begin at the time they arrive at passenger depot and will end when relieved from duty. ' ' Mr. Cadle : Yes. Mr. Sheean: I was assuming the case that he came into the passenger depot, the engine was uncoupled, and he went on down this quarter mile to the water tank. Mr. Cadle: And he was not relieved until he got to that quarter mile, to the water tank? Mr. Sheean: No, sir. Mr. Cadle: Well, does not that rule specify then how he shall be paid for it ? Mr. Sheean: It specifies that he shall be paid as final terminal delay — ^it shall begin at the time they arrive at the passenger depot and will end when relieved from duty, and be paid in addition to the time or miles of his run. So that under 321 this rule he would be entitled to this terminal delay, would he not? Mr. Cadle: Well, I would say not. Mr. Sheean : But the man who took the engine at the water tank (all of the hostler work being done by the shop force there, the engineer merely oiling the engine and backing it down to the train, and going on after this lapse of five or eight min- utes) would be entitled to this preparatory time? Mr. Cadle: He would prepare his engine before he would go out on his run. He was held responsible for the engine after he took charge of it. That is, he would be required to know that he could make a successful trij) with the engine. There is one point I want you to understand, Mr. Sheean, that you may get around one of these Mikado type of engines quicker than some of us engineers who have been running them for twenty years, but when you prepare an engine and get it readj^ to go on one of these modern passenger trains in five min- utes, you may give that train five minutes on your schedule, but it will take him ten or twelve or even twenty minutes to get away from his station. Mr. Sheean: I was assuming in the question on some of these runs that you were familiar with, where the engine does run through, but the crew changes, and where the schedule pro- vides for a five minute stop or a ten minute stop, and — if you please — where the time of stop is fifteen minutes, and the fif- teen minutes is taken up in the changing of the crew and recoal- ing of the engine by the hostler and knocking the fires by the hostler, and all that the outgoing engineer does in that connec- tion is merely the oiling around of his engine. In that case, in such a situation, this rule would give him the thirty minutes? Mr. Cadle: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean: Called for by the rule? Mr. Cadle: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean: In addition to the miles that he would run on that trip? Mr. Cadle: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean: It would also give the terminal delay to the engineer who came in from the time he arrived at the depot down to the water tank? Mr. Cadle: I did not say so. 322 Mr. Sheean: You did not sav so? Mr. Cadle: No, sir. Mr. Sheean: But can you point to anything in the rule by which the company could escape paying that, if the rule — as worded, I mean — was effective on any railroad? Mr. Cadle: Well, sir, I don't know how the rule would ai)ply to a man going out. If you pay one man for taking care of that movement there, it looks to me the engineers won't find . much fault, or the firemen either. But, in regard to this service, 1 know of one point where engineers are trained, running through from St. Louis to Kansas City, I don't know of the engine being cut loose from the train; I do know that there are two men that come down there and shovel the coal down, shovel the coal ot¥ the back of the tank for the fireman, but I never saw anyone around there to do any repairs, or to make any preparation for the run, only the engineer. Mr. Sheean: Exactly. Well, now then, let us take that case, where they don't even uncouple. The engine comes in and is not uncoupled from the passenger train at all, but is staying at that station — is carded to stav there five or ten minutes, and assume it does in effect have to stay fifteen minutes while this coal is shoveled down by the shop men, and during that fifteen minutes' time both the engineers, the incoming engineer and the outgoing engineer, are on that engine; the outgoing engi- neer, if you please, oiling around during that time, and getting in readiness to resume this trip just as soon as the train is ready to go. In that situation, where they do not uncouple at all, is the engineer entitled to this thirty minutes' preparatory time under this rule f Mr. Cadle: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean: And is the inbound engineer on that train entitled to a fifteen minute terminal delay between the arrival at the station and the time at which he is relieved? Mr. Cadle: I don't think so. Mr. Sheean: Assume he is not released until the train moves out of the station; he has to go over and register, hasn't he? Mr. Cadle: Well, as soon as he finds out that he has got all of the wheels — as soon as he finds that all of the bolts are there, while this engineer that is going out is preparing the engine for 323 his end, the other fellow is looking her over to see what he brought in, to see if he got all the engine. Mr. Sheean : During the same fifteen minutes ? Mr. Cadle: When lie gets done with that he takes up his little tool box which weighs from fifty to sixty pounds — I see they use a w^ieelbarrow up there now to wheel it — and he will lug that tool box over and go over and wash up, and he is not charging the company anything for it at all. Mr. Sheean: At the present time it is proposed by this rule that all the time, from the time of arrival until he is re- leased, shall be charged for? Mr. Cadle: No, sir, I don't think so, where they change engines. Mr. Sheean: This makes no provision for exception. Mr. Cadle : I know that. That is what you said. I sup- pose it is right. Mr. Sheean: There are, Mr. Cadle, are there not, in a great many schedules now, provisions for the situation, of a man being called and after being called and before starting on the trip, being released from duty — a great many schedules cover the situation of called and not used! Mr. Cadle : Yes, but very few cases. Mr. Sheean: What is it? Mr. Cadle: Yes, but very few cases. Mr. Sheean: Very few cases occur now? Mr. Cadle: Yes. Mr. Sheean: A great many of the schedules have some such provision for paying a quarter of a day or some such time where the men are called and not used? Mr. Cadle: Yes, they have such rules. Mr. Sheean: Under this presentation, if an engineer is called and gets his engine ready, by oiling around, seeing that the supplies are on the engine, seeing that there is water, seeing that there is coal, and, after having thus made his inspection, is notified that the train has been annulled, does he receive pre- paratory time under this presentation? Mr. Cadle: I would not think so. Mr. Sheean: Wliat would he receive under the proposed presentation? Mr. Cadle : Whatever the rule provides for. 324 Mr. Slieean: The present rule? Mr. Cadle: Yes, sir. Mr. Slieean: And this would not supersede any of the schedule provisions as to called and not used, in any of the pres- ent schedules? Mr. Cadle: I don't know what rule you are referring to. Mr. Sheean: I have no particular rule in mind, I assure you, Mr. Cadle. Mr. Cadle : I am trying to give testimony on this. Mr. Slieean: You know of a number of roads which pro- vide where men are called and not used, they shall be paid a quarter of a day? Mr. Cadle: Yes, and I know some where they are paid for a half of a day, and I know some of them where they are paid for a full day. Mr. Sheean : Take the one who is paid a quarter of a day, that being the one I thought was more generally in use, in this presentation of yours, would it supersede that schedule pro- vision? Mr. Cadle: I don't know any rule in there to make any change in it. Mr. Sheean: That is, no claim as to preparatory time or being entitled to a full day or anything of that sort, under this presentation, that would supersede the right to pay a quarter of a day in that situation ? Mr. Cadle : In my judgment that is a matter between the railroad company and the engineers and firemen to settle. It has always been settled by them. Those rules that are gotten up have been agreed to between the railroad companies and the employes. They are in that schedule. Mr. Sheean : Your understanding is, that even though this presentation were granted in its entirety, it would not disturb any of those rules? Mr. Cadle: I have no understanding at all. "We are will- ing to comply with the rules we have got until they are changed. Mr. Sheean : A\niat I am seeking to get at is whether these rules, according to your intent in presenting them, would change or would supersede the rule which pennitted a railroad company to pay one-quarter of a day in cases where men were called and released without being used. 325 Mr. Cadle: Those released would- Mr. Sheean : Whether they would or would not. Mr. Cadle: I don't know; I don't know whether they would or would not. I don't know exactly what you are trying to get at; one time you talk about these rules and then you are talking about the rules in the schedule. Mr. Sheean: All right, Mr. Cadle, I want to make myself perfectly clear. We will assume that you were acting in good faith with the general manager of one of these railroads Mr. Cadle: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean: And in the schedule of that railroad as it existed at present there was a provision that in case men were called and not used, the men would be entitled to one-fourth of a (Jay. That is the present schedule, Mr. Cadle. Assuming further, that as a result of the award, all of these sixteen articles were granted, would you or would you not be able to retain the rule which permitted you to pay one-fourth of a day, in that situation? Mr. Cadle : If they were not part of the award, if they were not a question to be arbitrated, yes. Mr. Sheean : Then with these sixteen propositions here, if all were granted, it is your understanding that none of them would conflict with such a rule in the schedule ? Mr. Cadle : No, sir. Mr. Sheean: Now, Mr. Cadle, there are just one or two matters that I am not entirely clear about. If you will go back for just a moment, if you please, to Article 1 ; in the fourth para- graph, "Overtime in all through service, except passenger and switch, will be computed on a basis of ten miles per hour and paid for at the rate of fifteen miles per hour, at rate for each class of engine used." In any of these schedules in which an eight-hour day is provided in freight service — you enumerated some the other day — would the overtime provided for in this request, if granted, be applied after eight hours, to that road? Mr. Cadle: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean : So that they would retain the eight-hour day, because of the saving clause, and apply this method of comput- ing overtime wherever the day was a shorter day than the one provided in these articles'? Mr. Cadle : Yes, sir. 326 Mr. Sheean: In other words, Mr. Cadle, working the same number of lioiirs on two roads, if a road now had an eight-hour day, and on that road at any time a man worked twelve hours, there would be four hours overtime to be paid at time and a half, if this rule were granted? Mr. Cadle: I don't catch your meaning. Mr. Sheean : You begin the comi)utation of overtime on the eight-hour road after eight hours. Mr, Cadle: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean: And all overtime would be jiaid for at the rate of time and a half? Mr. Cadle: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean : So that, on an eight-hour road, in case a man worked for twelve hours, four hours would be ])aid at time and a half? Mr. Cadle: Yes. Mr. Sheean: And while on a ten-hour road the overtime at time and a half would only be computed for two hours? Mr. Cadle: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean: That is, it would bring about a greater spread, a greater advance on the eight-hour road than on the ten-hour road? Mr. Cadle : Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean : Accentuating any differences that there might be now ? Mr. Cadle : Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean: Under Article 1, also, Mr. Cadle, an inspec- tion train or an officers ' special, is it contemplated that the five- hour day shall apply to an operation of that sort? Mr. Cadle : Twenty miles an hour, yes, sir. Mr. Sheean: That is a five hour day, specifically stated. Mr. Cadle: His time would be computed on a basis of twenty miles per hour. Mr, Sheean : So that on an inspection trip, an officer going out and being out for twelve hours, even though they were in the terminals, and ran only sixty miles during that twelve hours, he would be paid on the basis of each five hours constituting a day? Mr. Cadle: He would be paid overtime after five hours, if he received one hundred miles or less for his dav's w^ork. 327 Mr. Slieeaii : And it' the inspection train was ont ten hours, and just covered fortj" miles, around a])out the terminals, he "O'ould be paid two days' pay? ]\[r. Cadle: Yes. Mr. Sheean : There is just one other thing- 1 am not clear on, and that is Article 2, just before the rates : '^Seniority Bights; Rnlcs, Hours of Service and Mileage. Seniority rights to l)e intercliangea))le. Steam rules, hours of service and mileage to apply with the following rates of pay." ''Mileage," as used there, was intended to put tliis service all on the one hundred mile a day basis, Avas it? Mr. Cadle: Electric service and gasoline service? Mr. Sheean: Yes, Mr. Cadle: Yes. Mr. Sheean : So that the schedule, referred to yesterday, of a $4.40 rate on the Southern Pacific Eailroad, in a ten hour spread, and 220 miles operated during that time, now paying $4.40 for the 220 miles, would be paid on the basis of 2.2 days? Mr. Cadle: It would lie put on the same basis with the steam rates. Mr. Sheean: Tliat particular run we were talking about? Mr. Cadle: Let me express it another way: the rule as" written would apply to the electric or motor car service in the same manner in Avhich it does to steam, the same rules, the same rate of pay, the same way of computing your time. Mr. Sheean: And the same mileage? Mr. Cadle: Yes. Mr. Sheean : That is what T am getting at. Mr. Cadle: Yes. Mr. Sheean: As I understood it, we did not disagree yes- terday on that schedule of the Southern Pacific as to the motor cars. Mr. Cadle: No, sir. Mr. Sheean : $4.40 for 220 miles? Mr. Cadle: I think that is correct. Mr. Sheean : And the effect here as to that operation would be to make that equivalent to 2.2 days? Mr. Cadle: Yes. Mr. Sheean : Mr. Cadle, just to correct the record, either 328 you or 1 or the stenographer is wrong in two places. I think we can agree on it. At page 250 of the record I am reported as asking this question : **You answered the other day, and I thought inadvertently, that in the eastern territory they awarded us that 25 cent dif- ferential where road engines were used in the yard. That is an error, is it not ? ' ' "Mr. Cadle: Yes, it was west." I assume that what you meant there was ''South," or "Southeast"? Mr. Cadle: No. Mr. Sheean: Just straighten it out in your own way. Mr. Cadle: In the western country and in the southeast- ern country we have railroads that pay a differential of 25 cents when road engines are used in yard service. Mr. Sheean: I wish the stenographer would read that answer. (The stenographer read as follows:) "Mr. Cadle: In the Western country and in the South- eastern country we have railroads that pay a differential of 25 cents when road engines are used in yard service. ' ' Mr. Sheean: Well, Mr. Cadle, do you desire in any way to change, and if you do, please put in your own language whatever change j'ou wish to make. I thought there was a stenographic error in that particular line. If you think not, why. I will ask you to state it in your own way, and in youi* own language. Mr. Cadle: Well, I have just stated the answer that I would like to make. Mr. Sheean: That is all. The Chairman: Are you through with the witness, Mr. Sheean? Mr. Sheean: Yes. The Chairman : You may proceed with the redirect exami- nation. REDIRECT EXAMINATION. Mr. Stone: Mr. Chairman, if you will for a moment pardon a personal reference to myself, it seems to me that we are not Oi 29 going at this thing perhaps in tlio right way to get results, and results are all I am looking for. Perhaps I have been ''Erd- manized" and "Newlandized" more than any other living man, and this is not my first experience in an arbitration case. It does impress me that we are trying this more from a lawyer's standpoint, and that we are trying either to tangle up our wit- nesses or to befog the case. Now, I want to assure you, so far as our side is concerned, that we do not want to do anything but present the exact facts of the case before this Board; and it does not matter what the personal opinion of Mr. Cadle may be, or anything else. The facts that we want to get before the Board are, Avhat effect is the decision of this Board going to have on the great rank and file of these men who are going to work under this award after you have handed it down. I want to refer in the first place to a statement of yesterday, that the other side referred to incidentally, and with some laugh- ter, to show how ridiculous it was. It is on page 263 of the record, that Northern Pacific passenger train that was derailed 1,000 feet outside of the yard, and all the yardmen in the yard dropped their work and ran down to see what the matter was. In the first place, not criticising m}^ friends, the enemy, I do not know what in the world they sent all the yardmen down there for in the first place, unless it was to look on. In the next place, under their rules on that road, it was absolutely impos- sible for those crews to claim a day for that. I want to read you the rule, Rule 85 of the Northern Pacific schedule: "Switch engineers required to perform service outside of yards will be paid for actual time so employed at road rates in addition to the minimum day " Referring, of course, to the minimum day in the yard. If a man was down there thirty minutes, he would be paid thirty minutes' actual time. If he was down there an hour, he would be paid for one hour. And while perhaps it is true that some of our men might have claimed a day, it is also perhaps just as true that there are many officials who will say that so and so does not mean it, just as well as our men. We do not guarantee that our men are all perfect and that they will not try to gouge, perhaps, when occasion presents itself; but I think perhaps the honors are about even. :J30 There is anotlior tiling I want to bring- out. With your per- mission T Avould like to read into the record the Kansas law making it an offense for any num or any official to make an efficiency test — I will not use the word "surprise," as it is objec- tionable to the other side — by turning switch lights; and we shall endeavor to prove as soon as the evidence arrives — and it will be here shortly — that they are still making those tests, regardless of the law. The Chairman: L^lease indicate the portion that you wish to have inserted, and it will be inserted in the record. Mr, Stone: I have indicated what T desire to have i^rinted. (The statute referred to is as follows:) "Senate bill No. 483. Bv Wilson of Jefferson. AN ACT RELATING TO SWITCH LIGHTS AND LIGHTS CONTROLLING THE MOVE- MENTS OF TRAINS ON RAILROADS, AND PRESCRIBING PENALTIES FOR THE VIOLATION THEREOF. ''Be it enacted by the Legislature of the State of Kansas: "Section 1. It shall be the duty of any person, firm or corporation, or receiver, owning or operating any railroad in whole or in part, in the State of Kansas, to equip and maintain in good condition, switch lights on all main line switch stands, except where automatic block signals are used and where such automatic signals are so located as to answer the purpose of switch lights, and to keep all lights controlling the movements of trains on the main line burning from sunset to sunrise; pro- vided, this Act shall not apply to branch lines, where trains are not regularly operated at night, or in cases where the lights have been properly lit but have failed for causes beyond the con- trol of the company, and it has not had reasonable time to re- light them. "Section 2. That an}^ person, firm or corporation or re- ceiver, o^Tiing or operating any railroad, in whole or in part in the State of Kansas, violating any provision of this Act, shall be deemed guilty of a misdemeanor and fined in the sum of not less than one hundred dollars nor more than five hundred dollars for each offense. "Section 3. That any person who shall manipulate or tam- per with any switch stand, target, switch light or light control- 331 ling llie movement of trains, for the purpose of misleading or de- ceiving engineers, firemen or train crews, sliall be deemed guilty of a misdemeanor and fined in the sum of not less than three hun- dred dollars and not to exceed one thousand dollars; provided, that in case such unlawful act shall result in causing death or great bodily injury to any person or persons, it shall be deemed a felony and shall be jiunishable by imprisonment at hard labor in the State Penitentiar}- for a period of not less than one year, nor more than twent.v-five years. "Section -1-. This Act to take effect and be in force from and after its publication in the official state paper." Mr. Stone: I should like, if I may l)e ])ermitted, to correct three or four either misunderstandings or an attempt to read something into these articles that is not here. For example, the question of mountain grade. We take the position that the 1.8 per cent rule fixed where that rate shall apply, and we do not expect to define on what particular spot of the geography that particular grade is. Because, if we did so, as soon as this was in print we should find out that that mountain had sunk, that it was a hole in the ground, instead of being a mountain. Again, in Article 3. Article 3 defines as clearly as we know how to put the English language into words the definition of a local train, and it does not do anything else — the first para- graph. It says: "Local trains are" what! "are way freight or mixed trains whose work is loading or unloading freight or doing station switching en route." A clear definition, and that is the only place where a mixed train takes the local freight rate, where it does that class of work. Now, it was brought out yesterday in regard to these — well, the expedited movement. They don't say whether it was a refrigerator car or whether it was an express car that was handled in passenger trains. I take it for granted it was an express car and the meat was going by express. Is that as- sumption correct ? Mr. Sheean: I think not. The questions I asked yester- day were on refrigerator cars occasionally attached to a pas- senger train, or a stock car occasionally attached to a passenger train. Mr. Stone: A great many Mather stock cars and horses 332 arc sliipi)od by express. Be that as it may, Mr. Chairiiiaii, nearly all the rules in the Western territory provide — or many of the rules in the AVestern territory provide that when one or more freight ears are handled in a passenger train it takes the freight rate for the trip, or for the particular ])art of the trip where the freight cars were handled. Article number 3, de- fining a way freight or a mixed train, has nothing to do with that in the least. The same is true of these irregular freights that do station switching. I'nless they will do as they have in the past, annul the schedules of the regular trains and run an irregular crew out of the pool service instead and claim it is not a local. But it never was intended to bring those two together. Mr. Cadle, yesterday they made quite a strong point on that one man who worked 100 miles and was twelve hours doing- it, and by so doing got three hours overtime, and the other poor fellow who worked 120 miles in twelve hours and did not get any overtime. Now, would it not be possible for that man to make his same 120 miles in five hours? Mr. Cadle: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone : And he might have gotten in and got his rest and been ready to take another trip before the man who got in iiis hundred miles in twelve hours arrived at all? Mr. Cadle: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: Again, in regard to that man who ran 207 miles, I believe it was, in four hours on a passenger train. Is is not a fact that the man is a piece worker, and is paid so much for each mile that he reels off ? Mr. Cadle : Y^es, sir, under their schedule. Mr. Stone : Is it not also a fact that the company received just as much revenue for hauling that train 207 miles in four hours as they would have received had they been ten hours en route? Mr. Cadle : I i)resume so, yes, sir. Mr. Stone : Well, they don't charge any more for a passen- ger who is ten hours on the road than they do for one who is four hours on the road going the same distance, do they? Mr. Cadle: No, sir. Mr. Stone: Then, the fact remains that the company re- ceived the revenue for his service? Mr. Cadle : Yes, sir. 333 Mr. Stone : Is it not a fact thJat Article 2 that says, ' ' En- gineers and firemen on locomotives in pusher and helper service, etc., will be paid through freight rate according to the class of engine, ' ' — is it not a fact that that is simply to fix the rate that they will receive? Mr. Cadle: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone : It has nothing to do with designating what is a pusher or a helper service, has it? Mr. Cadle : No, sir. Mr. Stone : You are fairly familiar with the award in the Eastern territory, are you not? Mr. Cadle : Yes, sir. Mr. Stone : Do you know of anything in that award — I am speaking now of the award that was handed down — do you know of anything in that award that says anything about short turn- around passenger service of 70 miles or less ? Mr. Cadle : No, sir, not in the award. Mr. Stone: Is it not a fact that there was a compromise settlement made long after the award had been handed down? Mr. Cadle : Yes, sir, it was a compromise. The arbitrators met and fixed the rule. Mr. Stone: Well, not all of the arbitrators, did they? A representative from each side. Mr. Cadle : Mr. Morrissey and Mr. Willard. I was present at one conference when they were working on that. Mr. Stone : That was the only one that was held, the one that you were present at. That was in regard to fixing the turn- around rule ? Mr. Cadle : Yes, sir. Mr. Stone : If there is any question in regard to that, Mr. Chairman, I have a copy of the original award, and a copy of the supplemental compromise award that was made later on in the east. The Chairman : You can put that in as an exhibit. Mr. Stone : All right. Mr. Sheean: We intended to file, if the Commission pleases, or to ask leave to file copies of the awards, not only in that, but in the firemen's case and the conductors' and trainmen's cases, so that for such historical value as they might have they would be accessible to the ]5oard during their conferences. Some 334 of the qiiestioiij*. of course, are touched aud passed u])ou in those various awards. We inten(leneral managers had taken a similar position! Mr. Carter: They took that position during the arbitra- tion i)roceedings, and the Managers' Committee apparently de- termined that they would attempt to discredit all other bases of wages of engineers. I quote here from Mr. Worthington, who was a prominent member of the Eastern Managers' Committee and selected by that conmiittee as their official spokesman — I quote the language of the counsel for the railroads : "Mr. Worthington will be able to give you the position of the railroads from our operating standpoint." Mr. AVorthington ai)peared as a witness for the railroads against the contentions of the engineers for a considerable period of time. I have reproduced some of his testimony here, but I shall only read a few lines therefrom, to cover this par- ticular i)oint. Mr. Worthington says, on page 5: "I (h) not believe the cylinder traction is a proper dividing line to differentiate in the wages of the enginemen." Again he says (the second paragraph below) : **The co-efficient of adhesion of a locomotive is fLxed bv its driver weight, and is controlled by natural law. What I liiean by that is, if you were to take twenty locomotives of different sizes and test every one of them out here, to arrive at the co- efficient of adhesion, that is the slipping point, you would find under the conditions which exist here now, every one of them would slip at exactly the same percentage of the driver weight. Now, that being true, the limited pulling capacitv of that loco- 357 motive is a point at which it slips, and that law would be ac- curate. ' ' Now, I quote from page 6, in the second paragraph: *'Now, if the drivers' weight was the measure, and this is the limiting point at which the engine will slip — if that was used as a measure, we would not have any such controversy; and personally, I think the driver weight would be a far better unit to make or to differentiate, in the wages of enginemen. ' ' At the foot of that page, Mr. Worthington says: **The truth is I would not know much about this problem myself, if I had not spent four years studying it. If I had not gone up through the line of railroad service, and had not had charge of the tonnage rating of locomotive, I might never have discovered that myself. But for the reason I state, I believe that driver weight is a better measure." Another reason advanced for adopting drivers' weights, was this from Mr. Worthington on the same page : ''I do not believe we can get away from the theory that the engineer is entitled to his share of the increased productivity of his labor. I do not believe we can get away from that theory. I think he is entitled to his full share, myself. ' ' Mr. PhilliiDs: You understand from that then, that Mr. Nixon, speaking — and from the previous letter from which you read — that Mr. Nixon, speaking for the western railroads, rep- resented the wishes and opinions of the managers of the west- ern railroads? Mr. Carter: I so understand it. Mr. Phillips: And that Mr. Worthingion voiced the senti- ment of the western railroads? Mr. Carter: I so understood it until we attempted to comply with their contentions, when they immediately reversed their actions and fought our contentions in the east, and said that the weight on drivers was not the proper basis. I think the record will show that when the engineers asked for wages based on weight on drivers, the railroads advocated — I beg your pardon, let me repeat: I think that when the engineers advo- cated the size of the cylinder as the basis of engineers' wages, the railroads said that the weight on drivers was a proper weight. And then, when the firemen came along and acquiesced 358 in their contention and offered weiglit on drivers as the proper basis, they said that was not the correct basis. But, I think the record will show that all the railroads contend that weight on drivers is the proper basis. The Chairman: Well, are the wages of firemen graduated according to the weight of the engine? Mr. Carter: In the east, altogether. The Chairman: In the east? Mr. Carter: Yes, sir. The Chairman: What is the basis in the West? Mr. Carter: Practically the same thing, except it is de- scribed differenth'. For instance, the scale of wages for firemen and engineers in the West mav show a low rate on a class A engine, a little higher rate on a class B engine, and a still higher rate on a class C engine, etc. While they are described as class A, B and C, you will find that the tractive power of those loco- motives, or the weight on drivers of those locomotives is gradu- ated almost as the wages are. The Chairman: Therefore, the greater the weight of the engine the greater the pay the fireman receives for his services? Is that it? Mr. Carter: Yes, sir. The Chairman : And is that based on the theory that he is required to perform greater service on an engine of greater weight ? Mr. Carter: Increased labor, increased responsibility, in- creased jiroductive efficiency. The Chairman: That is what I wanted to get at. That is all. Mr. Phillii)s : And even though the Eastern General Man- agers reversed their jiosition and changed their tactics, the weight on drivers basis was adoi)ted for practically all the rail- roads, for firemen? Mr. Carter : It was unanimously adopted by the Board of Arbitration, one of whom was the ' representative of the rail- roads. Mr. Phillips: What is the table on page 7, Mr. Carter; beginning on page 7 and continuing on page 8? Mr. Carter: Preliminary to a direct answer, I hope the Board will pardon me if I have attempted to include in this 359 exhibit something for the purpose of familiarizing those of the Board, who are not practical locomotive men, with the pe- culiarities of locomotives of different types. It is not only the wages of locomotive engineers and firemen on the different railroads that show a grave lack of standardization, but the engines are described differently. On one road an engine may be called an Atlantic type, on another road the same engine may be called a class G, or class X ; on another road it may be classed as an engine weighing between 1000,000 and 140,000 pounds on drivers; on another road it may be classed as an engine of 300 per cent; on another road it may be classed as a 4-6-2, and yet with all those different classifications it may be identically the same locomotive. To help the mechanical officials of the rail- roads out of this dilemma, a very prominent mechanical official, by the name of Mr. Whyte, I think at that time he was the me- chanical engineer of the New York Central Lines — I may be mistaken, but that is as I remember it — he devised what is known as Wh5^te's System of classifying all locomotives and standardizing, I might say, all classifications. On pages 7 and 8 in the first column is Mr. Whyte 's standard classification of locomotives. In the second column appears a graphic presentation of the arrangement of the driving wheels and the truck wheels and the pilot. For instance, two large circles indicate two pairs of drivers. Five large circles, in the fourth line, indicate five pairs of drivers, or ten drivers. Now, the fifth one, the small hyphen or dash indicates the pilot or front end of the engine, and the two large circles indicate two pairs of driving wheels, and the tiny circle to the right, indi- cates a two-wheel truck following the drivers. The third column is the popular name. Some of these loco- motives have so many popular names that we could not get them in there. Now, to explain what I mean by so many po])ular names, let us look for a. 4-4-0. The 4-4-0 appears a little above the center on page 8, and I give the popular name as **8-wheel." Some writers never refer to it as the 8- Wheel, they refer to it as '* Standard." I think in Europe, in English speaking countries in Europe, they refer to it as the ''American." So there are many popular names for the same engine, but there is only one Whyte 's classification, and that is this standard, as you see in the first column. -j - fc-h^ - * * /^* ^« w w T ' g M ^ ^ if^-p ■'' . ' » ' i ^^^n^ 360 The purpose of that table was that during these proceed- ings, if reference is made to consolidation engines or "Consols," as they are called for short, the members of the Board will know in advance the peculiarities of that engine. Now, to add information to this table, I have inserted in the back of this book illustrations of these locomotives. I have not shown all of them. We will take the second locomotive shown on page 7, the 6- Wheel Switcher. A photograph of that engine is sho^\^l on page 38. That is an 0-6-0, or a 6-AVheel Switcher, as it appears. You will note that in these illustrations the tenders have been omitted. The purpose of that was to make the pictures of the locomotives as large as practicable, within the limited space on the page. If the tender had been left in the picture with the locomotive, it would have decreased the size of the picture by about one-half. The tender, with the exception of one loco- motive, has no real significance as to the power of the locomotive. If you will turn to page 37, however, you will see one engine where the tender is a locomotive within itself, called the ''Trip- lex," — that is the latest creation. Mr. Phillips: What is the popular name for that engine, Mr. Carter! Mr. Carter: ''Centipede." At least, that is the name that the newspaper men have used in describing the locomotive. Mr. Phillips: Mr. Carter, in this Whyte's Table, while you have explained it quite clearly, taking it in connection with the pictures over here which you have just explained, or the pho- tographs I presume you would call them, a fairly clear idea of the principle and design of any locomotive may be gained? Mr. Carter: Yes, sir. Mr. Phillips : Does the relative size of the locomotives ap- pearing on the pages here, indicate the actual differences in the sizes of the engines? Mr. Carter: Not at all. At the head of page 30 appears the 4-4-0, the 8-^\Tieel Engine. Mr. Phillips: Is that the Standard to which you referred a while ago? Mr. Carter : Yes, sir, or the ' ' American ' ' as you like to call it. The photograph of that locomotive, as it appears here, is much larger than the consolidation engine that appears at the head of page 32, while the consolidation engine, the illustration 361 of which is shown on page 32, may be twice or three times as big an engine as the 8-Wheel engine shown on page 30. Mr. Phillips: Will you now turn to page 10, please. I note here some diagrams of descriptive matter. Have these dia- grams any relation to the tables or pictures of locomotives pro- duced herein? Mr. Carter: Without assuming that the Board needed a graphic presentation of the case, the purpose of these diagrams is to graphically demonstrate that with the increased tractive power and weight on drivers of a locomotive, so the pulling power of the locomotive develops. I might say that when these drawings were made, they were made accurately to a scale of one-tenth of an inch to the foot, as applied to the wheels of the engine, and to a scale of one-tenth of an inch to the 1200 pounds tractive power, as applied to the rectangles indicating tractive power ; but in reducing the drawings to this size, which was sup- posed to be one-half, there is a slight variation from the true scale. The drawings as shown here are presumed to be on a scale of one-twentieth of an inch to a foot in locomotive dimen- sions, and one-twentieth of an inch to the 1200 pounds tractive power, expressed in the black rectangles. In connection with the diagrams, there is also shown the rates of wages requested in both passenger and freight service, and the rates of wages naw paid, or rather the highest rates of wages now paid on these, not the same locomotives, but on locomotives falling within the weights described in the proposition. Mr. Phillips: In the descriptive matter here, Mr. Carter, on page 10, and the first line of the printed matter beneath the diagram, you say, "Wheel base (excluding tender) 23 feet, 7 inches." What do you mean by the wheel base of the loco- motive? Mr. Carter: The wheel base is the distance between the exact point on the rail where the center of the front wheel and the center of the back wheel rest. It is simpler to say the distance between the centers of the journals of the front and back wheels. It does not mean the distance from the outside of the front wheel to the outside of the back wheel, it means the distance from the center of the front wheel upon which the locomotive rests, to the center of the back wheel upon which the locomotive rests. %T»- r .% i . ■ - iM f. ■^^^^^ 362 Mr. Pliillii)s: In those diaji^ianis I note you have given weight on drivers, tractive power, wlieel base and heating sur- face. Without going into detail, necessarily, do those various factors increase as the engine increases in sizef Mr. Carter: With some exceptions, there is a general in- crease. As stated, engines constructed for specific purposes may have a much larger boiler in proportion to weight on drivers than other locomotives. Where high speeds require great steam capacity, they have placed huge boilers on wheels only a part of which wheels are drivers. For instance, in the Prairie type of engine 4-6-2, they have two pair, or four small trucks, in front to help bear the weight of that boiler. Now, at the back they have one pair of wheels to help support the back weight. Another reason for that small pair of wheels back there is to make it possible to give the fireman plenty of room to throw the coal in. Mr. Phillips: Now, Mr. Carter, if I understand you cor- rectly, you state that the black square here — it is not a square as you go on, but a rectangle, as you call it — indicates the trac- tive i)Ower of the engine, and that the tractive power of each engine, shown and explained in these diagrams, would be indi- cated by the black rectangles, as we turn these pages. While you were testifying, I noted on the previous page, page 9, that you say, in the descriptive matter, the third paragi'aph from the bottom, a short paragraph: "While not so intended, these rectangles representing rela- tive tractive power, also approximately represent the compara- tive 'tonnage' capacity of each locomotive." Would we understand then, as we turn the pages, that the tonnage capacity would increase as the size of the rectangle increases, or the length of it? Mr. Carter: Approximately so. Mr. Philli])s: I think you explained to us what a Standard engine was, and called attention to the picture or the jiictures, with the table on ]iages 7 and 8, that is the Whyte Table, and the diagrams, they are intended to typify and clearly explain the various types of locomotives in use, and you have gone further in your diagrams and given some information regarding rates; not onlv the dimensions which I have before referred to, but 363 rates re(iuested and rates paid on the tyi)es of engines described. Mr. Carter: I think it perhaps would be fair to myself and fair to the Board to explain that those rates are selected from the schedules, the very highest rates that we find. In some in- stances they include the differential for mountain rates. The purpose was to show the highest rates that appear for locomo- tives of that weight on drivers in any of the schedules. T do not want it to appear tliat I am communicating the information that these high rates do not include also, in some instances, the diiferential because of mountain grades. For instance, those lo- comotives in service on the Canadian Pacific Railroad, west, i)ar- ticularly those ; I think perhaps all of those rates herein (pioted were fixed because of the mountain service. Mr. Phillips : Following the tabulation on page 10, show- ing certain dimensions, there is another tabulation showing rate requested for engineer and fireman on that class of engine, that is, the 4-4-0. I believe you would call it the Standard 8- Wheel? Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Phillips : The request is shown there, that is the rate appearing in the proposition submitted to arbitration! Mr. Carter : That is the rate requested for the class of en- gines indicated in the last line, where it says, "Locomotives weighing less than 80,000 pounds on drivers." Mr. Phillips: And this particular locomotive, weighing 77,000 pounds on drivers, would come within the class of rates requested on engines weighing less than 80,000 pounds on driv- ers? Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Phillips: Now, you say here, "While locomotives of this type and similar size are yet in service on many railroads, for purpose of illustration, this particular locomotive is now in the service of the Illinois Central Railroad, known there as No. 1940." You don't wish to give the impression that the rate you have quoted, following there, is in effect on the Illinois Central Railroad? Mr. Carter: No; the purpose in citing the particular loco- motive, was to make it possible for anyone to check u)i the dimen- sions I give and to verify their accuracy. Mr. Phillips : And where a locomotive may be taken from one railroad and a picture made, for the purpose used here, the »^*.»-V7rz m f M . .T Tr j> . - I* * ». ■ ^^^^iP 364 rates appearing may be ai)plical)le to the same type of locomo- tive on the different railroads? Mr. Carter: The rate requested? Mr. Phillips : I did not mean the rate requested. You quote here the highest rate paid. Assuming you take an engine from the Illinois Central Railroad for the purpose of exemplification or drawing pictures, or giving dimensions, this highest rate paid may not necessarily apply to that engine on the Illinois Central Railroad? Mr. Carter: I do not think in any instance the highest rate paid applies to the particular engine illustrated. Mr. Phillips: That is the point I wished to understand. But it does apply to that type of engine on one or more railroads parties to this movement? Mr. Carter: Perhaps I should explain that these engines selected for these diagrams are from blueprints that I happened to have in my possession, and there was no special pur])ose in selecting that 8-wheel locomotive from the Illinois Central Rail- road, except that I happened to have blueprints for an 8-wheel engine on the Illinois Central Railroad, and the specifications are taken from those blueprints. As I said, the only purpose in naming the locomotives in these diagrams is to make it possible for anyone so disposed to check the accuracy of the statements made in this exhibit. Mr. Phillips : Should anyone desire to check these rates as to the roads on which they may be found, have you prepared any tables for reference, and included them in this exhibit! Mr. Carter: We have checked and have prepared a great number of rates, many of which will be presented, and it would be impossible for me to remember exactly to what locomotive and what point a rate is applicable ; but anticipating that there may be a question as to the accuracy of rates in this statement, or any other statement that may be presented, we have available all of the supporting data and will be pleased to join with repre- sentatives of the railroads in verifying the accuracy of these rates. I want to say, however, that some of the rates that ap- pear in here, are not accurate ; that is, they are almost not ac- curate. Mr. Phillips: Almost not accurate? Mr. Carter : By turning to page 17 you will note a tabular f 365 statement, extending over to and including page 28. All rates quoted in the diagrams are also shown in this table, with the exception of a rate of $3.90 for firemen in passenger service, and of $4.00 for firemen in freight service, appearing first in diagram 4. If you will turn to the tabular matter, under diagram 4 — .. ^ Mr. Phillips: What page is that! -w^::' ^. ^.i Mr. Carter : The Southern Pacific, Pacific System. Page 25. You will find the last rate for the Southern Pacific Company, opposite Sacramento Division, shows $3.90 for firemen in pas- senger service and $4 for firemen in freight service, and the reference Note No. 1 at the bottom of the table explains where that rate is paid and under what conditions. Now, in the dia- grams we repeat that same rate; in diagrams 5 and 6, and I think in 7 ; but have failed to insert that rate in these tabular statements. It is not an error, it is simply an omission. I mean to say that the rates should have been written in there. I would like to call attention to some other matters that I do not think should go unchallenged, even if I have to challenge them myself. I have stated that the rates herein were taken from printed schedules. Certain rates herein, taken from the Southern Pacific, Sunset Lines, are not taken from schedules, be- cause on that road they have a trip basis, and, in order that we might thoroughly understand what the rates were, the repre- sentatives of the engineers and firemen on that road carefully prepared a statement of the trip rates, reduced to a mileage basis, and the rates shown in this statement for the Southern Pacific, Sunset Lines, — or rather, that is hardly correct, — what is knowTi as the Southern Pacific, Atlantic System, under the old name, which does not include all of the roads now known as the Southern Pacific, Sunset Lines, are based upon this specially prepared table. I believe they are accurate, but they are not from a schedule. I would like to call attention to page 20. Near the bottom of the table for the St. Louis Southwestern, certain rates are shown for a 2-6-0 locomotive, a *' Mogul." The rate quoted for this 2-6-0 engine is an error. There is no "Mogul" of this weight bearing a rate of $5.20, but understand the other engines shoAVTi there of approximately the same weight, pay the rates quoted. The error has been in showing that these rates were paid on 4-4-0 engines, 2-6-0 engines, and 4-4-2 engines. Ac- O*'.*' . t r*-*-»-' 'vm-r _ . - ■ ■ ■■ ^^^^" WW t a I ,% M 366 curatoly it sliould hv (|uotocl as being i)ai(l only on the 4-4-0 en- gines and the 4-4-2 engines; but understand all of these engines would fall within tlie group, under our proposition, by weights on drivers. 1 woukl like to call attention to — Mr. Burgess: Please explain, won't you, Mr. Carter, why the firemen's rate isn't shown opposite the engineers'? Mr. Carter: Unfortunately, sometimes the firemen are not getting more than we request, and the engineers are. We quote the rates for the engineers that are higher than we have re- quested, and because the firemen have not been quite so success- ful, we have no rates to quote for them; they liave no rates higher than we request. Mr. Phillips : In other words, Mr. Carter, you have quoted in these tables, beginning on page 17, or wdierever they begin, — I believe on page 17, — and continuing for quite a number of pages, only the rates that are as high or higher than the rates now requested? Yes, sir. Wliat page were you referring to ? Page 20. And there being no rate for that particular What railroad ? There are many of them down there in the Well, select a road? Well, we will take the Missouri, Oklahoma & Gulf. In the engineers' column there is a rate shown, but there is no rate showni for the firemen. Mr. Carter: On the Missouri, Oklahoma & Gulf, there is no rate paid to engineers in passenger service that is as high or higher than that requested in this proposition. There is no rate paid to firemen in passenger service that is as high or higher than requested, but to engineers in freight service there is a $5.20 rate paid on a 2-6-0 and 4-6-0 locomotive, which is just the same as the request in our proposition. ^Ir. Burgess : Then we are to understand that the absence of any rate indicates that the present rate is lower ? Mr. Carter: The absence of any rate indicates that there is no rate for that service on that road that is as high or higher than requested. Mr. Carter : Mr. Burgess Mr. Phillips engine- - Mr. Carter : Mr. Burgess last column. Mr. Carter : Mr. Burgess 367 Mr. Phillips: At the top of the eoluiims there, i read, ''Rate requested." Then, in a parallel line, across the page, or in a continuous line across the page, without giving tlie name of the railroad, you give the rates for passenger engineers and firemen, and freight engineers and firemen. Those are the rates requested, as I imderstandl Mr. Carter : Yes, sir, and have been inserted here for con- venience only. Mr. Phillips: Simply for comparison? Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Phillips : Then as you read down the column you can easily ascertain where the rates are as high or higher, and on what railroads ? Mr. Carter: Yes, sir. Can I call attention to some more errors in this! Mr. Phillips: Yes, explain as far as you like. Mr. Carter: By referring to page 25, for the Northern Pacific, you will note that a 2-10-0 engine is reported with rates for firemen, in both passenger and freight service. When that was included in that table it was believed that that locomotive weighed 140,000 pounds, or over, but in a careful recheck, after the printing of this statement, we find that that engine weighs only 130,540 pounds on drivers, which should properly place it back in the preceding group, under diagram 4. It is really a lighter engine, even though it has a higher rate, than we at first thought it was. Mr. Phillips: To what particular engine do you refer now, under the Northern Pacific group — there are several groups there! Mr. Carter: The 2-10-0. Mr. Phillips: The last one quoted? Mr. Carter: Yes, sir. Mr. Phillips: That should go back on the preceding page, under diagram 41 Mr. Carter: In place of coming in the group of 140,000 pounds and less than 170,000 pounds, it should have been in- cluded in the smaller group of locomotives weighing 100,0(K) pounds and less than 140,000 pounds. Mr. Phillips: Do you desire to make any further explana- tions? 0»'." . . ^ ^^M I II ■■! I I 368 Mr. Carter: Yes sir. At the foot of page 27, Chicago Great Western, there is shown for locomotives of this weight, under diagram 6, a $5.35 rate for engineers in passenger service, on a 2-8-2 locomotive. When this table was prepared the schedule of the Chicago Great Western was interpreted to mean that that was the rate paid. The schedule, I think, has a provision some- thing like this, after quoting rates for passenger engines, or rather certain passenger engines, there is a provision in the schedule that conveys the idea that on all freight engines, when used in i:)assenger service, they will take a rate 25 cents less than the freight rate. Now, we attempted to interpret that rule and placed this engine here as drawing $5.35 in passenger service. Subsequently, however, investigation shows that that particular locomotive has no rate fixed for it in passenger serv- ice, nor has it ever been used in passenger service, and I think there is a doubt as to what would be the rate on that engine if* used in passenger service. To that extent I would like to correct that statement there. Mr. Phillips: Anything further by way of corrections? Mr. Carter: No, except to say this, and I hope this will apply to any exhibit that I present, that if there is any question as to a rate, or where there is no question as to a rate, I shall be glad to have anyone who desires to verify the accuracy of any of these rates quoted, join with me and we will go over the entire matter. We have prepared for such an emergency by having reference numbers whereby we can refer from this exhibit back to the page of the schedule. We have reference numbers on the schedule whereb}^ we can refer to the page of the blueprint, and I do not think it will be very much trouble to either verify the accuracy of these rates or else demonstrate their inaccuracy. Mr. Phillips: Then you think the explanations you have made and the corrections to which you have called attention, sometimes being a transposition of rates, or perhaps sometimes improper rates inserted, — aside from that, these tables are as correct as they can be made by human beings? Mr. Carter: By some human beings. Mr. Phillips: I hope our friends \dll permit us to make corrections where errors are found, and in return for that, I will be glad to reciprocate. 369 Mr. Slieean : No question about that at all. Mr. Phillips: What you mean to imply, if errors have been made, it has been in the hurry or in the maze of compila- tion and that you have the supporting data, I understand you to say? Mr. Carter: Yes, sir. Mr. Phillips : And you will correct anything called to your attention ? Mr. Carter: I make that statement with the opinion that there are no errors to correct. Mr. Phillips : We hope not. Mr. Carter : I do not want to discredit the value of this or any other statement by intimating that I think there are errors there. Mr. Phillips: The impression you msh to convey is it is not your desire to give any erroneous information to the Board for its guidance. Mr. Carter : Yes, sir, and to invite the representatives of the railroads to join with me in checking the accuracy of any of these rates. Mr. Phillips : Now, Mr. Carter, what is the table on page 16? . Mr. Carter : That table on page 16 is additional informa- tion .concerning locomotives shown in the diagram. In the dia- grams I show weight on drivers, tractive power, length of wheel base and area of heating surface. In this table, on page 16, I shown a diagram of groups of locomotives by weight on drivers, the rates requested, and repeat the tractive power, and then show, in addition thereto, the size of the cylinders, the steam pressure, reported in the blueprints ; the diameter of the drivers, and the grate area. The purpose of all of these specifications is to show that gradually, as the weight on drivers increases, and gradually, as the requests for wages increases, so do practically all other matters pertaining to locomotives increase. I would like to call attention to at least one effort on my part not to over- estimate the importance of this table. We have one of the rail- roads in this movement known as the El Paso & SoutliAVestern Railroad. It is on an eight hour basis, and if wo would quote the rates from that road, on the eight hour basis, they would sup- plant many of the rates we show here, because they would be higher. v*A^7:* * « »-«-»» - ^i-i • M T^a^^^iH^«i"^« -^r w w • t Ti "rX^TT^^^^^K^^^^^^^^ 370 We AvouKl prefer to have it said at least that after we had made the presentation of rates that are as high or higher than we request, we have still some in reserve that are higher yet. Mr. Phillips: Then you have not — in formulating this re- quest or the proposition now before this Board of Arbitration you have not asked for the highest rates now paid to engineers and firemen? Mr. Carter: AVith the exceptions as it may be found that on the El Paso «& Soutliwestern, under the eight hour day, higher rates are being paid. I presume it will not be necessary for me to explain that the rate of wages per day would actually be higher Avhen the day was of eight hours duration than wlicn tlie day was of ten hours duration. Mr. Phillips: AVell, 1 understand, Mr. Carter, in reading these tables, that you have taken rates here from roads that are on a ten hour basis! Mr. Carter: Ten hour basis. Mr. Phillips : But on the roads in the proposition submitted to arbitration, will they be found to be higher in all instances than some of the rates now in effect on some of the railroads according to this arbitration? I refer specifically to the ten hour rates. Mr. Carter: It is my miderstanding that the El Paso & Southwestern pays about the highest rate to engineers and fire- men of any road in the west, if you will take into consideration the actujd rate and the length of the work table. Mr. Phillips: Well, leaving out the eight hour road, Mr. Carter, does a liigher rate appear in the schedules for engineers and firemen on any of the ten hour roads than is requested in the proposition submitted to arbitration! Mr. Carter : Certainly. That is what this arbitration is for. If I understand your question. Mr. Phillips: Well, if you don't understand my question I will be glad to repeat it, because I want to get my meaning very clear. I understood you to say, that, taking into considera- tion the El Paso & Soutliwestern Railroad eight hour schedule and the very high rates of pay now in effect on that railroad — perhaps in every instance higher than requested, that you con- sider that about the highest paid road. That was my under- standing of your reply. 371 Mr. Carter: Yes, with certain modifications. There are rates requested on very large locomotives in our proposition that are not in service on the El Paso & Southwestern Railroad. Therefore, that road does not pay those rates. Mr. Phillips: This is the part I want you to understand very clearly. Leaving out the El Paso & Southwestern or any other eight hour road, considering only the ten hour roads, are there rates in effect for engineers and firemen on many of the ten hour roads, or any of the ten hour roads, higher than the rates in the proposition submitted to arbitration? Mr. Carter: Yes. That is the purpose of this table. Mr. Phillips : That is the question I was asking Mr. Carter : The table shows that on its face. Mr. Phillips : Have you asked for a reduction of the rates that are higher than the rates requested! Mr. Carter: No, sir. Mr. Phillips : Why did you not do that? Mr. Carter : It was agreed by representatives of the rail- roads and representatives of the engineers and firemen that wages that were higher w^ould be maintained. A saving clause, I suppose you mean. Mr. Phillips : That is the clause which has been referred to one or twice? Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Phillips : And is a part of the articles of agreement to submit these matters to arbitration? Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Phillips : Providing in a general way that rates that are higher than rates granted in this arbitration will remain in effect. Therefore, the men, or engineers or firemen, now receiv- ing a rate higher than is requested, even though the entire — all of the rates requested were granted, would receive no increase in pay in their rates ? Mr. Carter : Their present rate would be maintained. Mr. Phillips : They would receive neither an increase nor a decrease? Mr. Carter: That is the understanding of the agreement. Mr. Phillips : Now, Mr. Carter, I understood you to say at the outset in your general explanation that productive efficiency or increased earning capacity went hand in hand with increased :%»#■•• ^ 372 tractive power or greater tonnage capacity of locomotives, and that it was your belief that wages should increase somewhat in the same proportion — wages for engineers and firemen. Mr. Carter: Not in the same ratio, I didn't say. Mr. Phillips : That is the question I was about to ask you. Do these rates of wages requested increase in the ratio indicated by these diagrams? I understood you to say that that was a general indication of ratio, increased tonnage? Mr. Carter : There is no approach to the ratio of increase in the productive efficiency of the man and the machine in the in- crease in the rates requested. For instance, by referring to these diagrams and comparing the tractive power of the loco- motive in Diagram 1 on page 10 with the tractive power of the locomotive in Diagram 12 on page 15, without scaling it or per- forming any mathematical calculation, I would say that it is six times greater. Now, the request for the wages for the engineer in freight service on the small engine is five dollars, and on this huge engine it is $8.25. For a guess, 63 per cent increase. Mr. Phillips : Not 600 per cent? Mr. Carter: Not 600 per cent. And an increased pro- ductive efficiency of the man and the machine. You understand that I simply looked at those two diagrams and guessed at the percentage of increase. Mr. Phillips : I just wanted to ask you. I was looking over to see. These are types of engines in use? Mr. Carter: I am correct. It is 65. I said 63. I just looked at it. Mr. Pliilli})s : I just want to ask you. These two diagrams represent engines in use in the Western territory on roads par- ties to this arbitration. I mean the two you refer to in making this comparison or illustration? Mr. Carter : Yes, and all of the engines illustrated in any manner in this statement are in service on some Western rail- roads, except the Triplex locomotive shown on page 37, only one of which has ever been constructed, and that is in service on the Erie Railroad. It is the latest addition to the family of loco- motives. It is the baby. Mr. Phillips: I have understood there are two more or- dered. You said a while ago, Mr. Carter — and I just want to ask you this question in order that you may explain a former 373 statement, that in this engine the tender had something to do with the capacity of the locomotive but had not in the other locomotive. Will you explain that, please? I refer to the Triplex on page 37. Mr. Carter : The tender of a locomotive has been used dur- ing all past years for the purpose of conveying supplies for the locomotive — coal, water, tools. You might compare the tender to a deadhead passenger. There is no revenue from the tender. Now, the builder of the "Triplex" conceived the idea of making the tender not only pay its own way, but help pull the cars, and therefore we have three locomotives combined in one locomotive in the "Triplex," as we have two locomotives com- bined in one locomotive in the Mallet. Mr. Phillips : Then tliis Mallet which you used for the pur- pose of exemplifying the greatly increased tonnage capacity or tractive power of locomotives, it being about six times greater than that of the smallest locomotive in use on Western railroads — I understand that Mallet engine is in use on a Western road ? Mr. Carter: It is in use on the Northern Pacific Railroad, if I remember right. It is Class N-1, I think. Mr. Phillips : But although the tractive power of that en- gine is six times greater, you do not ask rates six times higher for engineers or firemen? Mr. Carter: Eoughly speaking, while the tractive power of the locomotive is 600 per cent greater, the wages requested are approximately between 60 and 70 per cent greater. You might say that the ratio of the increase in wages is about one-tenth of the increase in tractive power, roughly speaking. Mr. Phillips : Permit me to call your attention to one more misstatement. You stated a moment ago that this Mallet engine was in use on the Northern Pacific. Please refer to page 15 of your exhibit. Mr. Carter : I meant the Great Northern. Mr. Phillips: It is not material, but we want to have it correct. Mr. Carter: I should have said the Great Northern. Tt^ belongs to the same family. Mr. Hill owns both. Mr. Phillips : Well, giving the Great Northern the credit for this Mallet, the increase of rate requested is about one- tenth of the increase in the tractive power f n.f ^ - "if M 1 fci /.>.*! ^ y f ■ , ^J. '^^^^^T^^M^^*'^/^* ' 374 ^fr. Carter: I liavo not made tliat estimate exactly. Mr. Piiillips: You only make it in a general way; but the increase requested is not six times as much, although the tractive power is six times as great? lif r. Carter : The increase requested is not twice as much. Mr. Phillips: That is what I was getting at. You say it is 65 per cent greater? Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Phillips: I think that is all. The Chairman : I think we can hardly begin the cross ex- amination tonight. Mr. Slieean: No, and I assume that Mr. Carter vnW be here, and as this exhibit seems to be quite complicated, if it is entirely agreeable I would rather cross-examine him after I have had some opportunity to go over the exhibit. Mr. Carter: Pardon me for making a suggestion, but I hope the cross-examination will cease before I assume another duty. I should hate to go on the stand for cross-examination as a witness after I have assumed that other duty. Mr. Slieean: Well, I can, if you insist — Mr. Carter: I shall be here for several davs, the wav we are progressing, as a witness. Mr. Sheean: I understood that you Avere through as a wit- ness. Mr. Stone: May I ask you wliy you make that statement? Mr. Carter: I appear as leading counsel for one part of this ])roceeding; and in order to appear as a witness and present some matters that I have prepared, I have refrained from taking any part in these proceedings as counsel. Now, when I leave the witness stand I prefer to cease being a witness. Mr. Sheean: All right, Mr. Carter. You are through with the direct, and I will be ready to cross-examine tomorrow morning. Mr. Carter: Not necessarily so. I will be here two or three days. The Chainnan: He means before he gets to his branch of the case as counsel, I presume. Mr. Phillips: If the Board please, by way of explanation, I may say, Mr. Carter having explained his Jekyll and Hyde position, appearing in one part of this doubleheader as chief 375 counsel — I think the responsibility is divided — Mr. Carter will perhaps later take part in the examination of witnesses. Now, if I understand him correctly, he desires to finish entirely his appearance as a witness before he assumes the position of coun- sel. I think the reason why he states he will be here two or three days is that additional witnesses may go on before Mr. Carter is called to examine any witnesses. Mr. Sheean : Tomorrow is Friday. I will be quite ready to cross-examine Mr. Carter on Monday morning. My only thought was that it would probably be more convenient all around, if you had other witnesses, to go right ahead with them now, and that I would be able to shorten up the cross-examina- tion if I could have time to see what there was in this exhibit before I tried to cross-examine. I will be prepared to do that on Monday if that is entirely agreeable. Mr. Phillips : I can only say as to that, if several -witnesses introduce exhibits, and in each case there should be great delay in making investigations before the ^\itness can be cross-ex- amined,! fear the time of our hearings will be greatly prolonged ; because my understanding is that there will be many exhibits in- troduced from both sides ; and while I do not wish in any manner to inconvenience the counsel for the railroads in his cross-exam- ination, I think I can appreciate how I would feel if I was in the- same position, and I think he should have sufficient time to exam- ine the exhibit carefully; but I do not think it would be good practice to permit a witness to give his testimony, dismiss him for several days, and then have a number of additional exhibits accumulate during that time, and have a cross-examination later on a subject that has been passed. That is my own idea. I believe it will expedite matters if we can keep up with the cross- examination. Mr. Sheean : I wish to co-operate in anything that will pre- vent delay, and my suggestion was partly prompted by the idea that if I at least had time to read a book before I attempted to cross-examine on it, I probably could shorten my cross-examina- tion. The Chairman: Gentlemen, after consulting the conveni- ence of the Board, it is agreed that until otherwise ordered the Board will convene at 10 A. M., take a recess at 12 :30, reconvene at 2 :30 and adjourn at 5 P. M. 376 Mr. Phillips : If the Board please, just a moment. In line with the suggestion of counsel for the railroads, if it is desired, I believe it can be arranged to exchange exhibits on both sides, if the railroads are prepared so to exchange exhibits that will later be introduced, and possibly time can be saved thereby. The Chairman: We should like very much to have that course pursued, if it is convenient. Mr. Sheean : I shall be glad to do that as soon as we have some idea as to what exhibits may be necessary, when I have got a line as to what the proof is to be. The Chairman : While we should not have any undue haste, I think we ought to proceed as speedily as possible with this in- vestigation. Mr. Sheean : Absolutely, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Phillips : At any time when it is convenient, or if the representatives of the railroads are prepared to exchange ex- hibits, I am sure we can arrange to give copies of every exhibit we shall introduce. In fairness I think we should have copies of their exhibits at the same time, so that we may make some study of them. Perhaps we can thereby save a great deal of time ourselves. Mr. Sheean: The comparison of schedules to which I re- ferred is not completed as yet. It has not gone to final proof. Mr. Stone: Mr. Chairman, I should like to say one word. You can readily understand that it would be unfair to our side to lay all our cards on the table and let the other side make up their minds what they are going to present. Mr. Sheean: If the Board please, I will withdraw my re- quest, and will be ready to cross-examine the witness tomorrow morning. The Chairman : We will adjourn until 10 o 'clock tomorrow morning. (Whereupon, at 4:58 o'clock P. M., December 3, 1914, an ad- journment was taken until 10 o'clock A. M. December 4, 1914.) 377 IX THE MATTER OF THE ARBITRATION between the WESTERN RAILWAYS and BROTHERHOOD OF LOCOMOTIVE ENGINEERS and BROTHERHOOD OF LOCOMOTIVE FIRE MEN AND ENGINEMEN nnder the Act approved July 15, 1913, by agree- ment dated August 3, 1914. (Miicago, Illinois, Dec. 4, 1914. Met pursuant to adjoiirnmeiit at 10 o'clock A. M. Present: Arbitrators and ]>arties as before. W. S. CARTER was recalled for further examination and having- been previously sworn, testified as follows : Mr. Stone: Mr. Cliainnan, before continuing either liie examination or cross-examination, Mr. Carter desiies to make some corrections in the copy of yesterday. The Chairman: J^et tlie corrections be made. Mr. Carter: Ujion reading the printed ])roceedings (d" yes- terday I find that my testimony begins on page o4."), and 1 have said some things that I did not intend to say. On page 352, in the third ])aragraph from the top, 1 sax': *' Pressure on the cylinders." I should have said "])ressure in the cylinders. ' ' In the next to the last i)aragraph, on the same pag<', in two places, occur the words '^more effective }»ressure." They should be ''mean effective pressure." On page 353, in the third line from the l)ottom, the woids "condensation of cylinders" should be ''condensation in cylin- ders." On page 355, in the lifth line of the next to the last |»ara- graph, the words "screw down the pot" should be ''screw down 378 flic pop." In explanation I will say that "p»>p" is tli<' - the Western railroads. ^Ir. Pliilli]>s: AVliile 1 inay have said "Western railroads" I intended to say "Eastern railroads," and 1 would like to have the record corrected to that extent. If you will read the ([uestiou directly above that you will note that 1 had made incpiiry re^ard- ini»' the Western railroads, and intenardini>- the p]astern railroads. Afr. Carter: On ))age o5S, in the third i)ara4;rapli, the Chairman says: "AV(41, are the waijfes of firemen iiraduated aceordini;- to the weig'ht of the engine?" I rei)lied "In the p]ast, altogether." When 1 made that re))ly I understood the ("haiiinan to have said. "Well, are the wages of lii-emen graduated according to the weight on drivers." He evidently said "weight of the ('ngin(\" and I thought he meant weight on drivers. That is the (piestion which T intended to answei-. Ml-. Stone: May 1 ask a (|uestion here? Mr. Carter: Certainly. Mr. Stone: It is true, is it not, that the firemen's ])ay is gTaduate(l on the weight on drivers? Mi-. Carter: Ves. Mr. Stone: ( )n engines in the Kast ? M r. ( 'artrr : Ves. On i)age .'Mi*. 1 note a tyi)ographical error, "between 1000,- 000 and Un,()()()." It should be "between 100,000 and 140,000." Mr. Stone: Do you not think that l.OOO.OOO ])ounds would be a good engine m freight service? Mr. Carter: Oh, she is coming. Fn file eleventh line of the same paragraph on ])age 859, I 3T9 said "4-6-2" -ill doscriiniig a locomotive. 1 slioiild liaxc said ''4-4-2." ■ On pag-e :)()2, second ijaragrapii, in tlie sevenlli line of that paragraph, I said "Prairie tY])e of engine," when I intench'd to say "Pacific type of engine." On page 367, in the long i)aragrai)li in the center of tiie page, the third paragraph from the bottom, i am quite sure that tliis was jnst what I said, l)nt it was wrong. Instead of saying "we find that that engine weighs only 130,540 pounds on drivers, which sliould pro})erly place it back in the i)receding group, under diagram 4," and where Mr. Phillips, further down on tlie same ])age, says "under diagram 4," it should have l)een "under diagram 3." That was clearly an error on our part. On page 370, the fourth paragraph from the bottom, tlie last line: "The actual rate and length of the work tal)le," I in- tended to have said, "The actual length of the work day.". In the next to the last paragraph, in reply to a (piestion from Mr. P]iilli})s, I said, "Certainly; that is what this arbitration is for." I intended to have said "Certainly. That is what this presentation is for," meaning this exhibit. The Chairman : Are you ready to proceed witli the exam- ination? ' . - Mr. Stone : Mr. Chairman, if I miglit : we reallv closed last night, Init it occurred to us we would like to ask one or two more questions. Mr. Carter, in your testimonv vesterdav of the weight on drivers and tractive power, you made no com]iarison between the tractive power of an electric locomotive and that of steam. Is tliere any difference in regard to these two, in regard to their weight on drivers, and in regard to the tractive power? Mr. Carter: Do you mean the ratio of weiglit on (h-ivers to tractive power f Mr. Stone :v¥es. Mr. Carter: ^No, the co-efficient of adhesion is practically the same, but with regard to the developed tractive power, it is much greater in Ihe electric locomotive. Do you desire explana- tion? Mr. Stone: If yoii will explain to the Board, so they will understand whether or not it Would be of benefit to Ihe comj^niiy. 380 or wlietluT tlioy would lost' anytliin^- it' tlu'v sub.stituted elec- tricity for steam. Explain the value of the increase. Mr. Carter: I think i)raeti(^ally all mechanical writers and speakers of the day agi'ee that locomotives in steam service, with the same weight on drivers, develop a much less tractive power than electric locomotives, and for the following reasons: a steam locomotive is made up of two reciprocating engines, and all reciprocating engines are in theory very uneconomical. First, the maximum force a[)i)lied to the piston is only maintained in the cylinder until, for the sake of expansion, the admission of steam is cut otf. Therefore, the force applied in that cylindei" rapidly diminishes during the revolution — the revolution of that side. Next, on account of the position of the pin on the driving wheel, there may be a total absence of leverage. When the pin is directly between the cylinder and the center of the axle (that is, in the same line), the force exerted against the wrist pin does not tend to turn the locomotive. It is only when the engine on the other side of the locomotive propels the train off of what we call the center, that the real power developed in that cylinder begins to exert itself, and requires the driver to turn. The greatest leverage is found either at the bottom or the lo}) center. But, unfortunately, we have another element to counteract that leverage, known as the angularity of the rod. That is, when the pin is in position where the steam could exert the highest power, it is out of line, and the pressure of the piston is divided betw^een the pin on one side and the guide on the other. I can compare force exerted to a driving wheel on a loco- motive to the turning of a grindstone. It is simply a push and a pull, a push and a pull. Now, if any of you have been so unfortunate as to have to turn a grindstone in your boyhood days, you know you would not apply the power all the time; it was intermittent. Now, in a steam locomotive it is the maxi- mum power exerted at any point that causes an engine to slip. An electric locomotive is a rotary engine, not a recipro- cating engine. There is a constant turn and twist of the axle of the electric locomotive, therefore there is a constant appli- cation of the maximum tractive power, with the result that an 381 electric locomotive witli the same weight on tlie drivers cau pull a great deal more tonnage, a great many more cars than cau a steam locomotive. You will understand, that if there were any higher power or force developed by the electric locomotive at any point in the revolution of the wheel, it would slip in the same manner that the steam locomotive would slip; but, as I say, the advantage of the electric locomotive is that the force is not ai)plied by impulse, but is a constant pull. You do not want any support- ing authorities on that, do you? Mr. Stone: If the other side questions it, we have plenty of authorities. Have you any large photographs of the modern locomotives of today that you could leave with the Board for their benefit or for their information? Mr. Carter: Upon the presumption that it is permissible, I have photographs that I had made myself of the Erie ''Trip- lex" locomotive, and imless it wants to be introduced as an exhibit, I will hand it over to the Secretary of the Board. It is simply an illustration on a larger scale of that locomotive. Mr. Stone: It might be well to unwrap it and let them see it; it won't take but a moment. We all love it so that we want everybody to see it. Mr. Carter: That is the '' Vaterland" of American loco- motives, or the ''Olympic," whatever you like to call it. That is the largest articulated locomotive built. I will leave that with the Board to do with as they like. Mr. Stone: Do you recall the weight on drivers — it is 756,000 pounds. Mr. Carter: I liave all the dimensions of the locomotive right here in my papers, if they are desired. I have here a picture of the largest single expansion locomotive built, known as the Santa Fe type; but this engine was built for the C. B. & Q., and the photograph was kindly loaned to me by the officials of the C. B. & Q. That locomotive is, I believe, the greatest loco- motive that has ever been built, so far as a single expansion is concerned. That is a recent addition to the American locomo- tive. If, at anv time, the Board desires anv information as to the construction of a superheater, I have here a diagram showing exactly how a superheater is applied to a locomotive* and some infoiTnation concerning the same. That is issued 382. (•fiicially hy I lie Anicricau Locoinotive Suixnlifater Coinpany. Mr. Park: Tlioso Vjv'w olivines liave automatic stokers, liaven't they? Mr. Carter: I ain (|uite sure that tlie "Triph'x" has, but I am not so sui<' lliat tlie Santa Fe lias. If it lias not, it should have. Mr. Bvram: Thev have automatic stokers, all of them. Mr.^ Stone: That is all, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Carter: Pardon me, please. With youi- ])ermissiou I thouji^ht yesterday that I had called attention to all of what a])i)eared to be errors in this Exhibit 3, but I tind I have over- looked some, (hi page 16 we give a rate for small locomotives, locomotives weighing less than 80,000 ])ounds on drivers, on the Alberta division, or mountain districts, of the Canadian Pacific Railroad, west of Fort William. If these locomotives were used there now, this rate would apply. I understand that small locomotives are no longer used on that district. I want to make these corrections because I do not want to convev a wroui!; im])i'ession. Understand, if the locomotive were used there it would draw this rate. Next, on ])age 18, we show that on all divisions a 4-4-0 engine is paid a $5.20 rate. That was true, but they have recently put that engine in the yard as a switch en- gine. Understand, the statement is accurate, but they have taken that eight wheel engine out of road service and are now using it as a switch engine. Mr. Phillips: What road? Mr. Carter: On the Santa Fe, Prescott & Phoenix, near the bottom of i^age 18. Mr. Sheean: If the Board i)leases, the other day, when iiKjuiry was made about the Northern Pacific, in whose schedule ai)i)eared the y^rovision for an automatic release and in which the question was asked of Mr. Cadle whether it was not a fact that where a passenger train got off the track a thousand feet outside of the yard limits and three switch engines, one after the other, ran down there to see if they could help re-rail the train, where they could be of no assistance, and came back into the yard, each one of those crews, under this automatic release rule, claimed a dav. as this was outside of their vard service, and every train crew in the yard ])ut in a claim for a day, because of being run around. Upon one member of the Board stating that 383 he would be much iiitei'ested to know whether those crews ara- graph on page 8(j, instance where three switch engines went just beyond yard limits to see if they could help re-rail train and for wliich each crew claimed a day, because it was work outside yard service, and each train crew in yard put in their run around. AVere these claims actually allowed? Will a]i])reciate advice as to just what final settlement was. "A. W. TRKXHOLM." Mr. Trenholin is in receipt of the following reply: ''St. Paul, December 3rd, 1f)14. ''A. W. Trenhohn, Chairman, Conference Committee, Chicago, Ills. Your wire second re instance quoted page 8() schedule nego- tiations. Men were i)aid amount of their claim, as, under tech- nical schedule application, they could prove it. There were but two cases instead of three, as reported on page 86. Both switch engine crews received day's pay for the road trip and two road engine crews and one train crew were each paid two run-a rounds. J. M. RAP?] up:." Mr. Stone: I would like to ask, Mr. Chairman, if 1 may: were those two switch engines sent out by instructions of sonu^ official, or did they go down there out of curiosity t Mr. Sheean: I will be very glad to send any telegram you may desire, or if it is desirable to go into it, to find wiiat the facts are — as 1 stated, I have no knowledge of what the facts were at the time of the negotiation; but if you will formuhite any tele- gram, I will be glad to send it or have Mr. Rapelje here. The Chairman: I should be very glad to have tliat infor- mation. T was just about to ask the question when Mr. Stone asked it. 384 Ml". Stone: For every case of tliat kind that tliey will pro- duce — and 1 do not <|nestion that tliere ate such cases — we wiU guarantee to produce at least ten wliere le<>itiniate time was not alIo\veai(i; but, if at any time, the locomotive was used there, it would be })aid. Ml*. Sheean : Tliat is the cause of the schedule i)rovision tliat all h)com()ti\es, other than Mallet, if used on this mountain division, where tliere is a grade of 2K' per cent, would take this rate ? Mr. Carter: Yes, sir, 1 tliink you have quoted the schedule proxision. I don't remember it. Mr. Sheean: That is, this diagram is made of the Illinois Central engine known as number ]940, and if that Illinois Cen- tral engine oi- one of like dimensiims was 0])erated on this mountain division of the Canadian l^acitic, it would take the rate? ^Ir. Carter: If any locomotive weighing 80,000 pounds or less on drivers were operated on this mountain division of the Canarovisions were made for the differentials now paid in tliese rates for mountain service. Therefore, this only shows the rate now ]>aid, not as it would be paid if we applied an additional differential on account of mountain grades. Mr. Sheean: Then the last line of your summary of the diagram "Highest rate now ]iaid," does not necessarily mean 385 tiiat ill any oiu' of tliese diai^rams there is any such rate Ix-inu ])aid on any en.uinc; wliich is being operated? Mr. Carter: At the time these diagrams wer»' prepaiod 1 liad an assistant, in wliose efficiency I have great faitli, insert the rates. We mnst depend and did depend n])on the scli])erated ou the C'liicago, Milwaukee & St. Paul ? Mr. Carter: I thought I ex])lained yesterday that that was not the intent of the diagrams. Those rates only apply to the black line — the engine described in the black line preceding the rates, which say: "Highest rate now paid for locomotives weighing 140,000 and less than 170,000 pounds on drivers," and as I explained yesterday, that statement has nothing to do with the fact that we have used a specific tyjDe engine for illustra- tive purposes, which engine is now in service ou the Chicago, Milwaukee & St. Paul Railway. Mr. Sheeau: Well, Mr. Carter, I did not want to debate the question, but the fact is, is it not, that the engine which is diagrammed is an oil-burning engine on the Chicago, Milwau- kee & St. Paul:' The line, "Highest rate now i)aid for loco- motives weighing 140,000 pounds and less than 170,000 pounds on drivers," is taken from the mountain division of the Cana- dian Pacific, and the firemen's rate extended o])posite the same line, is taken from a division oi' tlie Southein Pacific? Mr. Carter: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean: As to whether an engine of the tyi)e and style which you diagram is operated either on this division of the Canadian Pacific or on the division of the Southern Pacific, you have no knowledge? Mr. Carter: I think I should be permitted to explain what I thought I had exjjlained yesterday. In illustrating increased tractive power in these diagrams, I selected locomotives at ran- dom. It so happened that, to illustrate a locomotive on which we made certain requests for wages, I happened to select a locomotive in the service of the C'hicago, Milwaukee & St. Paul Railroad. These diagrams w^ere drawn; they were reproduced in zinc etching, and after this form was set, I asked the clerk to fill in the highest rate now paid for locomotives weighing 140,000 and less than 170,000 on drivers, without regard to the road. Mr. Sheean: Well, Mr. Carter, I think there is no dis- agreement between us except as to the "now paid." Is it or is it not a fact that the "now paid" as used on each of these lines means the rate which would be paid on some line if an engine of that sort were operated on that line? 389 Mr. Carter: No, sir, it do^^s not mean that at all, Ix'causc if tliat engine were operated on some roads it would take a mucli lower rate. It means that these are the higliest rates now paid for locomotives weighing 140,000 pounds and less than 170,000 i)ouuds on any railroad. Mr. Sheean: AVell then, Mr. Carter, can you tell when or where, or on what road, a rate of $5.65 has been i)aid on an engine of that type and style! Mr. Carter: T think the only way to determine that is to check it carefully to ascertain its accuracy. As I have already said, since this rei)ort has been printed, we have been informed by a committee from the Canadian Pacific Railroad, that, at the present time, engines of this weight are not operated on the mountain division of the C. P. R. Mr. Sheean: Well, have you any information as to whether an engine of the type and style shown in diagram 4, was, or ever has been, operated over the division of the Southern Pa- cific, as to which you extend the firemen's rate? Mr. Carter: I am advised by a gentleman who should know, that that is the fact. Mr. Sheean: As to each of these diagrams, to the end, the same citation obtains, Mr. Carter? Mr. Carter: No, sir. Mr. Sheean: Well, let us take No. 5, in which you dia- gram a Texas & Pacific Railway Company engine, No. 5, dia- gram 5, at page 12. Have you any knowledge as to whether or not an engine of that type and style has been operated, or is now being operated over this mountain division of the Cana- dian Pacific which takes a rate of $5.65 on all engines other than Mallet. Mr. Carter: I have no knowledge on the subject, and the diagram does not indicate that. Mr. Sheean: Have vou anv knowledge as to whether an engine of that type and style has been operated or is being operated on the railroad in which you find a schedule provision of $3.90 in passenger and $4 in freight, for firemen? Mr. Carter: 1 have knowledge where a locomotive in these classes of service, weighing 170,000 ])ounds and less than lH)0,000 pounds on drivers, is now receiving the rates lu'iciu spiwificd. Mr. Sheean: And how manv engines? 390 .Mr. Carter: i liavc no knowledge as to the iiunil»(*r t)f any engines in service, except as it may be comnnmicated to me tlirongh other channels than that of this schednle. Mr. Sheean: Well, then, Mr. Carter, without taking up the time to take these uj) one after the other in detail, will you tell us which ones of the diagrams do represent an engine as to which the rate which is actually pjiid ujjon tliat engine on the road where it operates, is set forth here? Mr, Carter: The jnirpose of including the tables beginning on page 1 7 and extending to page 28, was to answer that ques- tion. I anticii)ated that some one would desire to know where these rates are i)aid. With the exception of the corrections that I have already made, I think all locomotives that now ))ay as high or higher rates tliau requested, will be found l)eginiiing on page 17, showing the name of the railroad, the type of the engine, the division of the railroad where used, and the rate now ])aid. Mr. Sheean: "Well by "now paid" you mean which would be paid if they were ojierated again, do you not! Mr. Carter: My understanding is that the engines are there, with the exceptions I have mentioned, jf I am mistaken I shall be glad to be corrected. Mr. Sheean : Take diagram 1 at ])age 18, the detail of that, ''Missouri, Oklahoma cV: Gulf. All divisions, a 4-4-0 and a 4-G-O." With a freight rate of $r).20 extended op])osite that, the sixth line down. Mr. Carter: Read the question, jJease. (Question read by the reporter as above recorded.) Mr. Sheean : Have you any knowledge of their actually operating a 4-4-0 or a 4-6-0 in freight service on that road? Mr. Carter: The only knowledge 1 have is that in the schedule of wages and working conditions a rate is fixed for that locomotive. Mr. Sheean : Yes, so that if there were any locomotives of that type or style operated it would take that rate? Mr. Carter: I think tliat ai)i)lies to every rate in every schedule, and if you will jiardon me for explaining, there is not a rate named in any schedule of wages, or anj'" wage agreement, that does not imply that the payment of the rate depends entirely upon the use of the engine. For instance, on a certain railroad there mav 1>h a rate foi- a certain locomotive named in the 391 sclK'diile. That implies tiiat the locomotive is tlicre. Jl c<'ilaiiily implies that if tlie locomotive is there the rate will ])e paid. Mr. Sheeaii : Well, Mr. Carter, that is all that I wanted as to these tables. As to whether the implication from the appear- ance of a rate in a schedule was that that particular road had all the classes of engines to which that rate might ai)ply. Take the Canadian Pacific schedule to which T adverted a moment ago, and its provision that all classes of engines other than Mjdlet shall take the $5.65 rate. Does that imply that they do in fact have all classes of engines on that division? Mr. Carter: On what road! Mr. Sheean : The Canadian Paeilic. Mr. Carter: If does not necessarily imi)Iy that they have that class of engine on that division, but it does imply that that company has in its service that class of an engine, and, when used on that division, that company ])ays the rate sj^ecified. Ml-. Sheean: The provision of that schedule is, ''All classes of engines other than Mallet." Does that scheiglit, and if .it ajiy 392 time tliey run one of them over tliis mountain division it takes that rate. 1 will say, however, tliat it is not unusual, wln*n there is a specific differential on locomotives, unsecured tliroupfh con- tract, for the railroads to pull certain enj>iues off of that division covered hv that differential, in order to avoid payment of that rate. Pardon me, can I explain a question that you asked? Mr. Sliecan: Certainly. Mr. Carter: You asked me with repaid to the rates shown for entyineers and firemen on the Missouii, Oklahoma & (iulf, all divisions. Ml-. Sheeaii: Pardon me, Mr. Carter, l)ut 1 did not ask you that question. My question was, whether you had any knowl- edge as to whether or not a 4-6-0 engine or a 4-4-0 engine was used in freight service on that road? Mr. Carter: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean: What is the number of the engine? Mr. Carter: I will first answer yo'ur question and then an- swer it my wa\". Mr. Sheean: Well, if you i>lease, answer mine first. Mr. Carter: I said yesterday that it would he impossible for me to remember, or anyone else to remember, the exact de- tails concerning any rate of payment of the 50,0(X) rates we will introduce here, and I invited the railroads to appoint repre- sentatives to meet with our representatives and check the-accu- racv of anv statement, and 1 now challenge vou to do that. Ml". Sheean: Well, Mr. Carter, I am not quarreling with yonr statement. Mr. Carter: You are discrediting it? Mr. Sheean: No, I am trying to find out whether this rate which you examine is actually in oi)eration and actually being api)lied to a i)articular engine or number of engines? Mr. ('arter: 1 say, yes, so far as I know. Mr. Sheean: Well then, how many engines does the rate of $5.l20 api)ly to on this Missouri, Oklahoma & (luIf .' Mr. Carter: 1 have said I don't know how many engines. Mr. Sheean: Well, if you don't know how many, how are you able to state that you know it ap])lies to any engine actually being operated? Mr. Charter: With your ]»ermission, I will »'Xplain. By 393 tuniini^- to pa^e 1>5 of the schedules of wa^vs for hu-oniotive eii^iieei-s, we tind tlie folknvin^- as Exhibit No. 1 : "Missoiiii, Oklahoma & Gulf Railroad. — Ef^i'ctivc July 1, "All classes of engines, i)er oue hundred Tuiles oi- less, ex- cept Mallets, $5.20. "Mallet engines, $(>.15." 1 liave a bluei)rint here that is not our blueprint. It is one that has been handed to nie here, and T have not marked it. Without being able to immediately locate the eiigiiH' here, I will say to you, that on our blue])rint we liave a juarginal note showing the exact page, or point, on the blueprint wlicic that engine is described. This is not our blueprint. "Engines weighing less than 80,000 jxtunds on drivers." The -1-4-0 engine is number 41 and 4.'!. The 4-()-0 engine is numbered 45, and by referring to blue])rint you will see that the Missouri, Oklahoma «S: (lulf do claim to have tliose engines in service. Mr. Slieean: In freight servi(;e. That is what 1 asked y(ni about. You do not extend any i)assenger rate, and you do extend a rate of $5.20, and I want to know on what division, or where on the Missouri, Oklahoma & Gulf an engine of that type and style was actually paying the $5.20 rate, and was being used in freight service? Mr. Carter: Before answ^ering that (|uestio!i I will ask permission to bring over hei*e some 150 blueprints and a large number of reference ta})les, and I shall be glad to go into it with you; but I am going to suggest that it will save time if you will challenge every rate, and appoint a representative to check the accuracy of every one. Mr. Slieean: Mr. Charter, 1 am not (puirrcling al»out rates. I am simi)ly trying to ascertain from you if you know whether these rates are schedule rates, or whether or not tliev are rates actually being i)aid u])ou actual oi)erations on any line. Mr. Carter: 1 understood that they are actually ))eing paid in actual operation, and if they are not, then the on<' who fille«l in tliese rates for me Was mistaken. 394 Mr. Sliccan: Tlic man who filled in the ral('> tilled llieiii in lV(»ni the sclicdulcs, did he not ? Mr. rarter: 1 lliink so; I am (|uite sure lie did. Mr. Sheean: .\nd from that he filled in the rate which would apply to any engine of a ]>articular ty])e o]MM-ated there- un- tiie tahle he had no knowledge or infoi-niation as to the number of en.nines that were actually at any ])aiticular i)eriod of time paying any of these rates? Mr. Carter: No, sir. Mr. Sheean: That is all 1 wanted, so that there is no necessity of checkiui*'. If we understand that these are the rates wliicli would apply if an engine of that tyi)e and style did operate under tliese schedules, that is all T want. Mr. Carter: T su])pose you reco,i>nize the fad that J am anxious that you should check. Mr. Sheean: Mi'. Carter, what is the probative effect, as you understand it, of a showing that an Illinois Central engine, if it operated over a nu)untain division of the Canadian Pacific, would in that mountain territory get a certain rate? Mr. Carter: 1 do not show that, nor do I pretend to show that, and 1 think ])ei'ha])s some members of the Board will under-' stand that I have explained repeatedly — and 1 think Mr. Park thoroughlv undei-stands, because he assented vesterdav when I exi)lained — that I did not attempt to state tliat that rate was paid upon the Illinois Central engine, and I can repeat it again if yoil desire me to re})eat it. Mr. Sheean: In the tabulation which you say is to follow here, tlier( will be shown the rate which is actually ])aid u])on the engines which are being diagrammed ? Ml', (/artei-: As we understand it. Ml". Sheean : And are you able to state whether or not the rate on this Xumbei- 1940, going ])ack to diagram 1, in which you show und<'r "highest rate now paid for locomotives," $5.65 — are you able to state* whether or not the actual rate being i)aid on that actual engine is not $4.40? Mr. Carter : I do not want to make a reply that wouhl h?ave tlie record to inhter, that they used li<>htine weighing- 140,000 l)Ounds on drivers less than the rate on switch engines wei*ihin^- more tiian 140,000 pounds on drivers, we accom])lisli i>ractically the same i>nr])ose as the first and second class yards, for never, if they can helj* it, do railroads use the largest switch engines in yards of minoi- importance. Therefore, you will find, if this l)roi»osition, as applied to switch engines, is granted by the Board, in the yards now paying second class rates you will find the locomotives are less than 140,000 j)ounds on drivers, there- fore they will take the low late. In yards where they are oper- ating the larger engines, yon will find generally now they pay the higher rate; but at any rate, the size of the locomotive is a true index of the woi-k that locomotive is expected to ])erform. In this day of highly efficient management, you would hardly find a railroad official who would place a huge switching loco- motive in a yaid of minor im])ortance and a small switching locomotive in what is now known as a first class yard, that is, if they had these two classes or two weights of switching loco- motives in service. Mr. Sheean: Xow, Mr. (-arter, all 1 wanted to get was why you had two different starting i^oints; you start at 80,000 ])ounds in road service and carry it up four separate ste])s; you start at 140,000 pounds in the switching service, and anything below 140,000 pounds takes a uniform rate. What I wanted by the question was to know why yon take a different starting jioint in the two classifications.* Mr. Carter: Because in road service the increase of re- sponsibility and labor is more rapid, requires more graduations, than in the switchinu- service. It is scientificallv correct. 401 Mr. Sliecaii: I was tryiuti: to get the startini; j)()iiit, first- — any tiling- less tlian 80,000 ])ouiids on drivers you start as taking this niinimnin rate, no matter how small, even down to the little narrow gauge 22,000 ])ounds on drivers? Mr. Carter: No, sir. We have a special jn'ovisiou for rates on narrow gauge locomotives. Mr. Sheean: Well, then, down to the 40,000 or 50,000 pounds, we will say, the standard — you start there; these little branch line runs; and you start at the hasis of pay to the engi- neer of 1*4.50 and to the fireman of $2.90, for anything below 80,000 pounds on drivers. That raises, does it not, your start- ing j^oint; it starts out with a considerable step above the ])res- ent minimum for the small engines? Mr. Carter: AVe establish a minimum weight on all loco- motives weighing less than 80,000 pounds on drivers. Mr. Sheean: Well, now, Mr. Carter, the less than 80,000 pounds on drivers engines are very largely the small type of engines used on branch lines or on the lines Avdth lighter traffic, are they not? Mr. Carter: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean : Very largely comprised of those ? Mr. Carter: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean: The rates which are paid at the present time, the rates which are paid for these small engines, were fixed by an arbitration in 1910, as to the firemen, were they not? Mr. Carter: No, sir. The arbitration of 1910 sim])ly added — Mr. Sheean: (Interrupting:) Well, they added fifteen cents to the then rates and established those rates at that time? Mr. Carter: I think not. I think the coni])laint of the railroads was that we did not adopt any standard oi- basis for wages. Mr. Sheean: Well, Mr. Carter, in 1910 all of these small engines on the branches of the various roads, as a result of that arbitration, were allowed fifteen cents a day more than their then rate? Mr. Carter: Yes, solely on account of the increased cost in living. Mr. Sheean: Now, then, since 1910, to the present date, has there been, on these less than 8n,000 pounds on drivei- en- 402 gines, any flian^c in the work or the responsibility oi- the pro- ductive efficiency of those engines? Mr. Carter: T tliink it will l)e demonstrated to the satis- faction of counsel for the railroads that on all railroads there is a tendency to get more work out of that locomotive now, than ever before. 1 think yon will find that, on that branch, the fireman can i)urcliase less and the engineer can purchase less of the necessaries of life, with his wages today, tlian before he received that last increase. Mr. Slieean: Well, Mr. Carter, yon are referring now, I take it, to the increased cost of living? Mr. Carter: That is why that rate was granted. Mr. Sheean: Was that in the award, why it was granted? Mr. Carter: It was in the disputes that arose out of the award. It is an official record, however. Mr. Sheean: Now, Mi'. Carter, 1 understood you yester- dav to sav that this claim lor graduation and so on was based upon three elements, as 1 followed you, increased labor, in- creased responsibility and increased efficiency, productive effi- ciency. Now, as to locomotives weighing less than 80,000 pounds on drivers, has there been, since 1910, any change, either in the work or responsibility or increased productive efficiency! Mr. Carter: Without being specific, I will say yes, in )e- sponsibility and in productive efficiency. Mr. Siieean: Have you in mind any particular operation on any jjarticular bianch oi- road where these light engines are now oi)e rated on a different basis or in a different way than they were in 1910? Mr. Carter: At this thne I am unable to refer to any spe- cific instance, but 1 think the general trend has been to require more care of the locomotive engineer and fireman since tiiis "Safety first" movement was started. I think that almost every day engineers and firemen are (cautioned above all things to observe the safety first rule. In order to comply with these requirements, the engineers and firemen are exerting themselves, so far as responsibilities are concerned, more now than ever. I think you will also find, generally speaking, that on all loco- motives, more work is performed by those locomotives than was expected of them four years ago. Mr. Sheean: Mr. Carter, do you mean that the slogan of — •■» 408 ** safety first" has, since 1910, caused the eiit»ineers and tiremen to change tlieir habits witli reference to safety, efficiency and desirable operation? Mr. Carter: I think it has changed the employes and changed the officials mncli more. Things that were done four years ago, before this ''safety first" movement started, are not done any longer. Mr. Sheean : And that is measurable in dollars and cents to the engineers and firemen? Mr. Carter: It is measurable, so far as a man receives pay for his responsibility. It is not measurable so far as the amount of coal shoveled is concerned, but as it requires an engineer or fireman to observe more stringent rules, so does it add to his responsibility. V Mr. Sheean : And rules designed to bring about the result of ''safety first" are, you think, legitimately measurable in increased compensation to the engineer and fireman? Mr. Carter : Yes. The installation of automatic signals is one of the greatest "safety first" movements we have ever seen ; and yet there is nothing that has added more to the respon- sibility of engine crews than the installation of automatic signals. Mr. Sheean: Is it your judgment, that an engineer and fireman operating on a railroad with automatic signals should receive a higher wage than an engineer and fireman operating on a railroad that is not protected by automatic l)lock signals! Mr. Carter : I would say no. Mr. Sheean: Is it your judgment, that an engineer and fireman operating upon a railroad which does not specialize on "safety first" should receive a lower wage than on one which does operate under that doctrine? Mr. Carter: No. Mr. Sheean : Why do you take the base of 80,000 pounds as a starter? Mr. Carter : My understanding of the purpose of the com- mittee was to fix a mininnmi weight and a minimum wage for those classes of locomotives that have practically disappeared from main line service. It really makes a low rate on branches where the density of traffic is inconsiderable. It would be the same as saying that the main line rate does not apply to branches, and therefore meet the objection of the railroads to 404 })aying tlie same rate on minor brandies. I think you will find, as you stated a while ago, that on these minor branches they have these locomotives weighing 80,000 pounds or less on drivers, and this minimum low rate applies on those l)ranches. Mr. Sheean: And you start with a minimum applicable on branches, at 25 per cent higher, in the west, in the firemen's case, than the rates wliicli Avere awai^lod you for main line service in the east! Mr, Carter: 1 do not think there is any way of comparing a Hat rate of wages of $2.90 to an increase of 15 or 30 cents. Mr. Sheean: Tn the east, I said. Mr. Carter: How is that! Mr. Sheean : Please read my question. (The stenographer read the question as above recorded, as follows :) *'And you start w^ith a minimum ai)plicable on branches, at 25 per cent higher, in the west, in the firemen's case, than the rates which were awarded you for main line service in the east ? " Mr. Carter : 1 did not know that that was a fact. If you state it as a fact, I will accept it as being a fact. Mr. Sheean : You start, as a beginning point, which you say practically means branch line service in the west, at the minimum wage of $2.90 for firemen in passenger service, do you not! Mr. Carter: What page are you reading from? Mr. Sheean : Article 2 of your submission. Mr. Carter: Page 2? Mr. Sheean : I am not sure that this is paged the same as yours. Article 2, the first line: 80,000 pounds on drivers, fire- men $2.90. Mr. Carter: That is in passenger service! Mr. Sheean : In passenger service. Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Sheean : And the award in the east, on less than 80,- 000 pounds, was $2.45, was it not ? Mr. Carter: Without referring to it I will accept your state- ment as being accurate. Mr. Sheean: And that covered the main line operations of the east? 405 Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Sheeaii : Where the traffic is really much denser in the west, generally, even main line traffic, is it not? Mr. Carter : If you say so, I will accept that as a fact. Mr. Sheean: Do you not know that? You have made a good many comparative figures here as to trainloads and car- loads. Mr. Carter: I think you will find, on some of the roads entering Chicago, that are parties to this movement, as high a congestion of traffic for the number of tracks as at any place in the world. Mr. Sheean: Speaking of the territory as a whole, you know, do you not, that both the carload and the trainload of the east is greater than in the west! Mr. Carter : Carload and train load, I think that is true. Mr. Sheean: And starting with a 25 per cent basis — a basis in the west of 25 per cent more than the award in the east, you make your first jnmp from 80,000 pounds to 100,000 pounds, a greater spread than the spread in the east, do you not ? Mr. Carter : I have not compared it. I presume that that is correct. You are reading from the Eastern Award, I under- stand. Mr. Sheean: Now, as the weights on drivers increase, are the contributions of the engineer and fireman just the same progressively w^ith increasing weights on drivers? Mr. Carter: That is a matter of opinion. I think the contributions should be credited to both the engineers and fire- men. Mr. Sheean: On a percentage basis? Mr. Carter: That might be a matter of dispute, ))ut we are willing to accept the ])roposition that it is eetween rates paid by different railroads ; and I am quite sure that the reason these different gTou])ings of weights were adopted, was because, in the east, the arbitration award for firemen fixed these weights. Mr. Sheean: You are back of the classification in the east also. Assuming for the purposes of this question that both of us agreed that a division based on weights on drivers was a proper basis for measuring compensation, if >()U suggested to me, '/AVell, we will start out and make a step of 20,000 ])ounds as the first step, but the second step will be 40,000 ])ounds," just what reason would you give for making the second step twice as long as the first, and then the third step from 170,000 to 200,000, or a 30,000-pound break ? 'My. Carter: I think it was the idea of the conunittee to establish certain points at which the rate would change, but T must confess that T do not know why those differences were orig- inally established. 408 Mr. Slieean: 'I'licie is iiotliiii.u in t\w actual i^racticc that IMits any of these places as breaking- ])oints on fn'ip:ht enjj:ines, is there? Mr. ('alter: I thiiiU tlw suh-coinniittee that originally drafted this refjuest had in mind a similar distin<*tion of waj>:es already existinir ))ecause of locomotives of those weiii:hts. Mr, Sheean: So far as the en,i»ineers are concerned, the mininnmi recjuest that they have made, where they attempted any jjfrade, was what was below a LM)-inch cylinder, was it not ? Mr. Carter: Where was that? Mr. Sheean: In the eastern case. I do not iix-an the award, but what they asked for. Mr. Carter : 1 have their request here ; but without looking it up T will say that I presume you are right. If you are not right, I imagine we will both of us be corrected. Mr. Sheean: And the higher rate in their recpiest in the east was only after the cylinder was above 20 inches ? That was tlie l>reak ])etween the mininnim and the higher rates. Mr. Carter: 1 think so. Mr. Sheean: And, taking a 20-inch cylinder as a starting point in your scale of rates, that would take the weight ou drivers clear u]) to 200,000 ])ounds, or close to it, would it not? Mr. Carter: T think yon will find that when wages are based on the size of the cylinder, it is v(M"y unscientific, for this reason — Mr. Sheean: 1 do not want to go into that. 1 am simply trving to find out whether a 20-inch cvlinder would not take vou clear up to about 200,000 ])ounds weight on drivers? Mr. Carter : I should hate to answer that question, because T do not know. 1 have not compared the recjuests of the en- gineers in the eastern arbitration award with our request. Mr. Sheean : You had some cylinder basis at one time, did you not? I am trying to get at a general idea of about how high in weights on drivers a 20-inch cylinder will take you. Mr. Charter: A 20-inch cylinder on an engine built to carry 225,000 i)ounds of steam — Mr. Stone: Whoa! Mr. Carter: I beg your ymrdon — I mean 225 pounds of steam — such an engine I imagine would weigh perhaps 170,000 pounds on drivers. 409 Mr. Sheeaii: Lot lis take it at 170,000 pounds tlieii. Mr. Carter: I do not know that that is true. Tlic wei^lit on drivers, however, wouhl increase, with the same cylinder, in ])ro])ortion to the increase in steam jiressure. Now, yon nii^lit find a locomotive weig'hing' 175,000 ]»onnds on drivers, carryinir 225 pounds of steam pressure, yet having- tlie same size cyrmder as another locomotive, say, weighing 125,000 jiounds on diixci-s, and, roughly speaking, carrying- 165 ])0unds of steam. Mr. Sheean : Xow, Air. Carter, all that I wanted on tliat ounds. any- thing below that to take this lower rate. Mr. Carter : You mean their request in the east? Mr. Sheean : Yes. Ml". Carter: Yon understand they are not uuiking that request here ? Mr. Sheean: Oh, T am <|nite confident of that: 1 have not any doubt about that ; but I was wondering why, making a i-equest which started at 170,000 pounds as a minimum, they now start down at 80,000 pounds, and by successive jumps scale u]) to what was considered the minimum two or three years ago? Mr. Carter: I could not answer that question except to say that by changing the ))asis of rates of wages of the engin(H»rs, as requested by the engineers, to the basis demanded by the rail- roads, would require a change of the arrangement of some of these locomotives. Mr. Sheean: Mr. Carter, you do not know of any railroad do you, that ever demanded that you should fix as your starting point a minimum at 80,000 jwunds on drivers, and j)ay a pro- gressive scale from there on up? Mr. Carter: No, T do not think that was ever fixed upon. Mr. Sheean : If you have any misai)prehension about it, we are perfectly willing at this time to have you amend your request and start at the 170,000 jjonnd minimum that was cov- ered by the request in the otlier case. Mr. (^ai-ter: (■ould we change it to 50,000? Mr. Sheean: I do not think it would make an> particulai- difference as to what tlie Teijuest -wa.s ; but if yon waiited to n 410 waive tlio not think tlici-c would he auy ohjcctiou to your doini,^ tliat. Mr. Carter: I think the engineers were mistaken in tlieir re<|uest, as set forth in your (piestion. 1 tliink they wer<' eon- vineed of their mistake by tlie ariifuments offered hy tlie laii- roads in that ar))itration, and 1 tliink tliey liave tried to rectify tlieir mistake. Mr. Slieean : Taking" these successive breaks h''re, start- ing- at 80.000 i)ounds and bieakin^- at 80,000 to 100,000, and from 100,000 to 140,000, and from 140,000 to 170,000, and from 170,000 to 200,000 and so on, 1 thouulit ])erha])S you had in mind some scientific reason for makini>- the breaking points as indi- cated on tliis scale. Mr, Carter: No, there is no reason for having it exactly tliat way. They miglit have said less than 75,000 ])ounds to })0,000 pounds. They might have so changed it, and perhaps have had arguments to offer why the change was right. Mr. Slieean : The fact about it is, is it not, that there are many eight wheelers, some of them weighing about 75,000 or 7(),000 ])oun(ls, and others weighing about 82,000 pounds, up to as high as 87,000 pounds, and there is no ])ractical difference either in the work of these men on these engines, their respon- sibility, or what those eight wheelers })roduce, which now are taking a uniform rate? Mr. Carter: I think you will find that that applies to all di\ isions of weights. Mr. Slieean: Just at your starting ])oint, there are a great many eigiit whcf'leis that run about 75,000 oi- 7b,0(UI pounds. are there not ? Ml-. Carter: 1 presume so. Mr. Slieean: And a great many about 82.000 or 8."],000 or 84,000, are th.ere not.' Mr. Cart<'r: I think s«). Mr. Slieean : And under jiresent operations on these branch line roads, those litth' eight wheelers, through all those grada- tions of weight, are taking the same rate? Mr. Carter: T think yon will find that the fact that the locomotive is an eight wheel engine has not been considered at all in drafting this proposition. 411 Mr. Sheean : Oh, I am not questioning- the pioi)ositiou now. I am simply seeking to elicit whether you do not know it to be a fact that many eight wheel engines weighing 75,000 or 76,000 pounds are generally in use, and on the same line there are many other engines of the same general type, weighing 82,000 to 85,000 pounds, performing practically the same kind of service ? Mr. Carter: They would not do that. Mr. Sheean: They would not do that? Mr. Carter: T think you will find that wherever a loco- motive is capable of producing a greater revenue because of its greater weight, tliat revenue is j)roduced, if it is possible to produce it. Mr. Sheean: I think you said these eight wheelers are very largely on these branches out here in tlie western territory/ Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Sheean : Do you know any of these branches where any railroad is fortunate enough to be able to get the tonnage to load its branch engines up to capacity? Mr. Carter: On some branches — and many branches, as I understand it — the locomotive }nills all it can pull. Mr. Sheean: Well, now, I would just like to know where that particular branch is, if you can name it? Mr. Carter: Without (pialifying as an. expert on that matter, I will say that personal testimony will be offered by men who are engaged in that particular class of work. Mr. Sheean: Well, you do know, Mr. Carter, do you not, that in the eight wheel class of engines, on a line that has a good many branches, say like the Rock Island, a great many of those engines will weigh 75,000 pounds and 76,000 i)ounds, and a great many 80,000, 82,000, 84,000 and 85,000 pounds, which now in operation are taking the same rate? Mr. Carter: I think you are mistaken in that statement. Mr. Sheean : I do not intend it as a statement. I wanted to find out from you whether it was a fact. Mr. Carter: Well, you present it as a statement and ask me if it is true? Mr. Sheean: Yes. Mr. Carter: I think vou are mistaken. I think you will find in th<' next exhibit there are two or three rates on eight 412 wheel (Mii^fiiies falling within one ,i;r<)up, where we arc now ask- ing for one rate on tlie three. 1 think you will find that the i-ates in wages have heen fixed without rhyme or reason. You will find two locomotives on the same road — an eight wheel en- gine carrying a less weight than perhaps a ten wheel engine, when a ten wheel engine — let me repeat that. You will find on some roads an eight wheel engine with a less weight on drivers — T wish I had the exhi)/it here. As T picture it to my mind, as I have seen it in the exhibit, you will find an eight wheel engine drawing a higher rate — I can't get it right. You will find a ten Avheel engine drawing a higher rate than an eight wheel engine, while the eight wheel engine is the heavier of the two on drivers. Now, if that is not inconsistency in the arrangement, V don't know what it is. Mr. Sheean: Well, Mr. Carter, the one thing I was trying to elicit was whether or not you did have any personal knowledge on the question, whether just below the 80,000 and just above the 80,000 there were a great many engines in this western ter- ritory which now take the same rate? Mr. Carter: I will say yes, and say that applies to every other engine and every other rate requested. For instance, you take 170,000 pounds, you will find at the present time there are engines weighing 160,000 pounds that are paying the same rate as an engine weighing 180,000 pounds. Mr. Sheean : And there is not in this presentation, so far as you are able to state, any scientific reason, or any particular reason, why you take 140,000 pounds instead of 150,000 or 160,000! Mr. Carter: I think the committee endeavored as best they could to fix a fair grouping of locomotives, without regard to any scientific value. Mr. Sheean: Well, what I meant by scientific value was, whether on any basis of fairness, there was any particular rea- son, on a basis of fairness, why it should be 140,000 rather than 150,000 pounds? Mr. Carter: I think, without saying it to be a fact, that the engines on our present rates, or the rates that were present at that time, were graduated in some manner akin to the grad- uation of rates on drivers. I think you will find that. Mr. Sheean: But you are not able to tell the manner in 413 which tlit'V were akin, whether by consanguinity, matrimony, af- finity, or otherwise? Mr. Carter: I think the purpose of the committee was to so divide the weights on drivers into groups, so that it would be fair to everybody. Mr. Sheean: But you cannot give us what were the rea- sons which led to the conclusion of being fair to anvone ? Mr. Carter : I was not on the committee. Mr. Sheean: Now, can you indicate any point in these weights on drivers at which the relative contributions of the en- gineer and fireman to productive efficiency undergoes any change t Mr. Carter: Pardon, me, I did not get the question. Mr. Sheean: Read it, Mr. Leonard, please? (Question read by the reporter as above recorded.) Mr. Carter: I shall read the first paragraph of Exhibit Number 3 : ''Upon the presumption that the rates of wages of En- gineers and Firemen should increase in proportion to the task they perform, in proportion to their earnings for their employ- ers, in proportion to their productive efficiency, a scientific basis of fixing the wages of Engineers and Firemeli would be the Tractive Power of locomotives. Beginning with a minimum Avage on the smaller locomotives, a wage commensurate with all conditions and duties, and adding thereto as the tractive power of the locomotive increases, should be fair to both the Railroads and the Enginemen. " Mr. Sheean : Now, Mr. Carter — will you read the last ques- tion, Mr. Leonard, please? (Question read by the reporter as follows: "Now, can you indicate any point in these weights on drivers at which the relative contributions of the engineers and firemen to productive efficiency undergoes any change?") Mr. Carter: I think that the increased tractive power is a true index to the increased productive efficiency. Mr. Sheean: Well, does that go along step by step of the same things as between the engineer and the fireman, throntrli th^ entire schedule? 414 Mr. CaittT: Well, 1 will confess to you that 1 lunc not iriveii that matter any tlioii,a:ht. Mr. Sliooan: Xono wliatcvor? Mr. Carter: L mean to say tliat I have not attempted to make any comparison as to the ditTerence in degree of increase in productive efficiency of the engineer and fireman. Mr. Slieean: Well, it is based entii'ely in tliis scale upon increasing tractive power? Mr. Carter: So far as i)roductive efficiency, yes. Mr. Sheean: Well, then, why in your request for electric service, on the next page, does the increase of the motorman ])rogress from $4.50 to $5.60, while that of the fireman remains stationary all the way through at $3.35? Mr. Carter: You will have to ask the committee that fixed that standard rate. I don't know. Mr. Sheean: Your thought is that it should go progress- ively on a tractive basis and not by the conti'ibution of their labor to the result ? Mr. Carter: If 1 had been fixing the rates and basing the rates on j)roductive efficiency I would say the same rate in steam service should api)ly to electric service, and I think I stated that several times while that proposition was being dis- cussed. Mr. Sheean: So that, basing it entirely on productive effi- ciency, you would not, Mr. Carter, make any differential as between a fireman who turned an oil spigot and fired by oil and a man who shoveled coal into a firebox? Mr. Carter: So far as responsibility — Mr. Sheean: 1 am talking about their wages. Y^'ou would nuike no ditTerence in wages between a man who turned an oil spigot and a man who shoveled coal? Mr. Carter: 1 would say that there should be no differ- ence, because I think yoii will liiid in i)ractice that while the actual labor — the ])hysical exertions of the fireman on an oil- buining engine is inconsiderable, 1 think there are some other duties added which would entitle him to special recognition, particularly so when it is shown that when a railroad changes from coal to oil they increase the earnings for the railroad and decrease the labor cost per ton mile. Mr, Sheean: Well, by the like reasoning, Mr. Carter, would 415 you leacli tlic couclusiou tliat whetlu^i- a ('oal-l)iiiiiiii thai would pciinit the i-ailroads to reduce the wages of that eiiiiineei and lireman. Mr. Sheean : Assuming that the wages which an engineer and lireman aie drawing is a fair and ])roper wage, and assum- ing that this same inventive genius ])roduces greater productive elticiency — doubles the ])r()ductive efficiency, without im])osing ads: I believe, from one of your answers, Mr. Carter, the inference was drawn that the small engine, this 80,()()() pound engine, was practically confined absolutely to branch line work. My friend asked numerous questions along that line. Now, in the pj-oposition submitted, would an engine carry a higher rate, if used on the main line than is asked on a branch line ? Mr. Carter: No, sir. Mr. Phillips: As a matter of fact, aren't those engines 423 used as iniicli on tlio iiiaiii line as on the ])i-ancli lin<', in your judgment! Mr. Carter : I tliink that a few years ago — if we may con- sider twenty years as l)eing a few years — ahnost a majority of all main hue movements M'ere made with eiglit whcol engines, "with the ))ossible excejjtion of some roads tliat were more anx- ious to increase tiieir productive efficiency, and I tliink you will find tliat a vast majority of the eiglit wheel engines formerly in use are now no longer in use at all. F think yon will find that they are rapidly being supplanted by much larger *^ngines, both in freight and ])assenger service; but there remain these small engines, and they fulfill a specific purpose, or general purpose, T might say, in handling liglit traffic, whether it is on the main line or a branch line. Now, to show the scientific basis of our proposition, automatically the railroads would be enabled to transport that light traffic, either on main line or branch line, by using this lighter engine. Mr. Phillips: Is it not true that a considera))le ])ortion of some of the railroads is designated as "branch line"? Mr. Carter: I have heard, during these negotiations, state- ments made that some railroads claim as branch lines, a large majority of the miles of the i-oad. Now, I do not know that to be true. Mr. Phillips : Is it not true that on such railroads, if Mallet engines were used, they would pay the same rate there, as though used on tlie main line? Mr. Carter: Yes, sir. Mr. Phillips: Ts it not true that Mallet engines arc used on some of these so-called branch lines f Mr. Carter: I am quite sure that if there was a train to be pulled, that was heavy enough to justify the use of a Mallet, and a Mallet was available, that the general policy of the rail- road would refjuire the use of that Mallet. Mr. Phillips: Mr. Carter, you made one statement regard- ing the payment of higher lates on an eiglit wheel engine, or a small engine, than are i)aid liy some roads on a ten wheel engine, weighing less on drivers? Mr. Carter : T did not mean it that way. Mr. Pliillii)s: Perhaps that is not the way yon stated it. Mr. (Uirter: 1 «aid that there miyht be a higher rate on a 424 ten wluH'l iMiiriiic than on an ci.nlit wlu*el en^^inc*, when the rate on drivers mii^lit Ix' loss, and I want to explain why 1 seem to be so eonfnsed in expressing: this. 1 have in mind eertain infor- mation that will 1)0 ])rosonted in the next exhibit, and in the prep- aration of that exhibit, [ notieed this inconsistency, and T could explain that so much bettor if I had the exhibit. 'i'iie (Miairman: AVo will take a recess nntil 2:30 P. M. ( AVherenixni, at 12:35 P. M. a recess was taken until 2:30 o'<-l(.ck V. M.) After Recess. The Chairman: Vou may })roceed, gentlemen. Mr. Stone: Mr. Chairman, it is not my desire to prolong these examinations on this ])articular exhibit unless the other side desire to ask further questions upon the exhibit. If not, we will excuse the witness without any further cross-examination. Mr. Sheean : We are through with him. The Chairman: (^all your next witness. SAMUEL T. STE1NBERGP:R was called as a witness, and having been duly sworn, testified as follows: DIRECT EXAMINATION. Mr. I*liilli))s: Please give your full name. Mr. Steinberger: Samuel T. Stoinberger. Mr. Phillii)s: AVliat is your occupation? Mr. Steinberger: I am employed as a clerk in the Urand l..odge of the Brotherhood of Locomotive Firemen and Engine- men. Mr. Phillips: How long have you be(!U so employed? Mr. Steinberger: About ten years. Mr. Phillii)s: Prior to that time were you employed as an engineer or fireman? Mr. Steinbergei': Yes, as both. Mr. Phillips : In your ca])acity as clerk in the (irand Lodge office of the Brotherhood of Locomotive Firemen and Engine- men have you had occasion to prepare some tables or data for the purpose of showing the rates of pay for engineers and fire- men on the railroads ])articipating in this arbitration? Mr. Steinl)erger : Yes. 425 Mr. PliilH|)8: I linvc licie a voIuhr' I'lititlcd "Kates of Waft-es Ke(|ueste(l ('om])ared witli AVagcs in EttVct, presented by the Brotlierhood of Locomotive En<>ineers and tlie I:Ji-()ther- hood of Jjoconiotive Firemen and Rnginemen." I )(> you identify this as tlie preparation yon have made? ^Ir. Steinberger: Yes. Mr. Pliilli])s: Tf tlie Board i)lease, we desiie to introdnee this volnme as Exhibit No. 4. The Chairman: V^ery well. (The i)am])hlet so identified was received in evidence and marked "Employes' Exhibit 4, December 4, 1914.") Mr. Phillips: AVhat is the pnrpose of this exhibit? Mr. Steinberger : Tlie ])nr])ose of this exhibit is to show the rates requested, the rates now in effect, and the ix-rcentasre of increase, if any, requested. Mr. Phillips: t'nder whose direction was this work pre- l)ared ? Mr. Steinberger: Under the direction of Mr. \V. S. Waiter, president of tlie Brotherhood of Locomotive Firemen and En- ginemen. Mr. Phillips: ])id yoii have any assistance in preparing this work! Mr. Steinberger : Yes, I was assisted by Mr. M. W. Cadle, Assistant (Irand Chief Engineer of the Brotherhood of Locomo- tive Engineers. Mr. Phillips: ])o the rates shown here ai>ply to both en- gineers and firemen f Mr. Steinberger: Yes. Mr. Phillips: Do they cover all of the railroads, and the various engines in use on the different railroads, ])arties to this arbitration movement? Mr. Steinberger: No, sir, they do not. Mr. Phillips : Not all of them"? Mr. Steinberger : No, sir, not all of them. Mr. Pliilli]»s: Why were not all roads inclinled in >"<»nr table '! Mr. Stein])erger : On some roads, where schedule rates vary in different districts, or where rates are based on an arbi- trary basis instead of a mileage basis, such roads as the San Pedro, i^os Angeles & Salt Lake, and the Sunset Lines of the 426 Soutliciii I'acilic. the i^atcs were t'liiiiislicd and applied to tli»' districts \)\ the icspcotivc oliaiiiiicii of tlic (*n,y:in(H'rs and lire nu'ii for tliose roads. Ml-. IMnllips: Then, if I understand you correctly, the rep- resentatives of tlie men. the ,i;<'neral cliainnen, ])re])ared the data for such roads, and vou accepted the ii,i>ures with which they have furnislied you .' Mr. Steinberi»'er : Yes. Mr. Pbillii)s: Have these tables been carefully checked to determine their accuracy.' Mr. Steinl)eri;er : Yes, each of these ta))les has been checked by the chairman of the Engineers' (^onnnittee and the cbairmali of the Firemen's Connnittee for each of the i-es])ective roads shown in the table. Mr. Phillips: Have you covered all service on all railroads shown in that exhibit? Ml-. Steinl)eri>-er : No, sir, no attemjjt has been made to cover any service except passeng'er service, throuiih freiiibt serv- ice and switchin<»- service. Mr. T*hillii)s: Have you shown the roads havin^i' a day shorter than ten hours: Mr. Steinberi'er : Yes, there is a list of roads, showins: those liavini>- a day shorter than ten hours. Mr. Phillips: Do you show the roads on which oil is used as a fuel, wholly or in ])art ? Mr. Steinberger : Yes, on pai^e \V. Mr. Phillips: Do the rates shown in this comi)ilatioii rej)- resent the earnings of engineers and firemen? Mr. Steinberger : No, sir, they do not ; just simply the rates api)lied to the engines, regardless of overtime or any other al- lowances Mr. Phillips: Is it possible that some of the roads have new engines, introduced since you look up this work, for which the rates are not shown in these tables ? Mr. Steiubergei': Yes, but they would be very few. Mr. Pliillii»s: AVell, although they might be few, would such engines be covered by these tables? Mr. Steinberger: No, sir, they would not. Ml". I^hillips: Why have you included the sixteen arti(rles submitted to arbitration in this ])ook? 427 Mr. Steinl>eij>er: Just simply as a mattt^i- of lefereuce, in case it would be necessary to refer to them. ^Ir. Pliillii)s: Does this exhibit refer to auvtliiim- other than the rates of pay f Mr. Steinberi>er: No, sir, it does not. ;Mr. Pliillii)s: Simply the rates of pay now in dToct for engineers and iiremen on the different loeomotives in use on the different railroads? Mr. Steinber<;er : Yes, sir. Mr. Phillips: How did you go about to secure these rates? Mr. Steinberger: The weights on drivers were taken from official blue prints oi- classifications for each of the respective railroads. The engines were grouped by weights on drivers, according to the original pro])osition presented to the i-ailroads on October 10, 1913, and the rates were taken as api)lied to such engines by groujis from the schedules in effect at the )»i('s blue ))i-iiits t(t determine the classification of locomotives? Mr. Steinberger: Yes, sir, in most instances they were blue prints; in other instances the classification books; and in some instances this information was taken from the chairmen, where we were unable to get the official blue prints or classifica- tions from the officials of the companies. Mr. Philli])s: Were the blue prints which you were able to secure furnished by officials of the different roads? Mr. Steinberger: In most instances, yes, sir. Mr, Philli])s: In addition to showing the rates in effect on the different engines, do these tables also show tlic rate re- quested on that engine?. Mr. Steinberger: Yes, sir. Mr. Philli])s: Classified on the basis pro]X)sed in the arti- cles submitted to arbitration? Mr. Steinberger: Yes, sir; immediately following the rates in effect for both engineers and firemen are shown the rates requested on the same class of engine for engineers and firemen. Mr. Phillii)s: Are the rates requested higher than tlic rates in effect, in all instances? Mr. Steinberger: No, sir, they are not. Mr. Philli]>s: Arc you ])repared to say on liow many roads 428 souu' or all of tlu' rates ar<' as lii^li or higher than the rates leiiiioisted ? Mr. Stoinher.iici-: i^>> ('oiinliiig- ri,i;ht straight through the exhibit, either for engineers or lirenien, where rates are shown that are as liigh or liiglier tlian those requested, I find tliere are ',^6 roads that pay either in some class of service a rate that is as high or one that is higher than the rates recjuested. Mr. Phillips: How is that shown on the tabk'? Mr. Steinberger: It is indicated by three stars and a foot- note at the bottom of tlie page, which reads: "l^iesent rate as high or higher than requested." Mr. Phillips: Where the rates in elfe.ct are not as liigh as the rates requested in Article 2 of the proposition submitted to arbitration, do you show the per cent of increase requested! Mr. Steinberger: Yes, sir, immediately following; the next colnmn. Mr. Phillips: Does that apply all the way through the table? Mr. Steinberger: Yes, sir. Mr. Phillips : For all of the railroads ? Mr. Steinberger: For all of the railroads. Mr. Phillips: And for all of the engines? Mr. Steinberger : Yes, sir. Mr, Philli]xs : Where there is no increase shown, have you indicated the difference between the rate requested and a higher rate that may be now in elfect? Mr. Steinberger: No, sir, no attempt has been made. It is just shown there ]>y three stars, which indicates it is as high or higher. The ]iercentage has not been figured. Mr. Philli])s : Did I understand you to say you took these rates from the schedules of the different railroads? Mr. Steinberger: Yes, sir. Mr, Phillips : Do those schedules show their effective dates on the different roads? Mr, Steinberger: Yes, sir. Mr. Phillips: In compiling these tables or preparing this data, do you indicate on what division or part of the system of a railroad the different rates apply? Mr. Steinberger: Yes, immediately under the name of the railroad the divisions or distances are shown. 429 Mr. Pliillips: AVell, now, Mr. Steiiibcrger, it' you will turn to page 1 of your exhibit, under this Roman **I," I note there is the numeral ''1,*' Atchison, Topeka & Santa Fe (Proper)? Mr. Steinberger : Yes, sir. Mr. Phillips : I notice the very first entry in your table of figures under the heading "Passenger service," you show en- gines less than 80,000 pounds, 8-Wheel, 4-4-0, paid two different rates, or rather two different rates are shown as being in effect on the particular part of the Atchison, Topeka & Santa Fe lines that those rates would apply. How do you account for that ? Mr. Steinberger: The rates for engineers in passenger service are based on the size of cylinder. Both of those engines are less than 80,000 pounds on drivers, one engine has cylinders less than 18 inches and pays $4.15; the other has cylinders 18 inches and over in diameter and pays $4.40. Mr. Phillips : AVhat explanation have you to make for the firemen's ratef Mr. Steinberger : The same applies to firemen. Mr. Phillips: Exactly the same reason! Mr. Steinberger: Yes, sir. Mr. Phillips: Then, taking the Mikado engine, further down on the page in both 200,000 and less than 225,000 pound class, and the 225,000 to 250,000 pound class, you show two en- gines but the same rate, evidently, all the way across the page. Why is this? Mr. Steinberger: Both of those engines are Mikado type engines and carry the same rate in passenger service. By ref- erence to page 5 of the same road, you will note one of those engines in through freight service carries $5.20 and another carries $5.45. The Mikado carrying the $5.45 rate has a weight on drivers of 215,000 pounds, and consequently carries the 25 cents differential for engineers and for firemen, and both are the same kind of engine, having cylinders of 24 inclies or over in diameter. Mr. PhiUii)s: On account of the engine being differently classified, vou have run it twice in the same table ? Mr. Steinberger: Yes. Mr. Pliillips: What is the meaning of this little symbol following the name of the engine, the asterisk? Mr. Steiiil)erger : The footnote at tlie bottom of each page, 430 l'(n- one still', it says "cvlindt'is 24 inches, or over, in dianietei-.'' Mr. Piiillips: And two stars indicate what? Ml'. Steiid)er^er : "No locomotive of tliis wei^iit in serv- ice." Mr. I?liillii)s: And three stars? Mr. Steinberger: "Present rate as higli or Jii^her than requested. ' ' Mr. Pliillips: In this last column on page 1, where three stars appear, that would indicate — they appear several times there? Mr. Steinherger : Yes. Mr. Pliillips: In the column representing the percent of increase recjuested for firemen? Mr. Steinl)erger : Yes, sir. Mr. Phillii)s: Tliat would indicate that the particular class of engine in which these stars are entered, now pays as high or liigher rates to tiremen as tlie rates requested? Mr. Steinberger: Yes, sir. Mr. Phillips: And in the same column for firemen and in the fourth column of figures, the last column for engineers, it would show the percent of increase requested, where the rates re(jueste(l are higher than the rates in effect? Mr. Steinberger : Yes, sir. Mr. Phillips : This explanation applies to the engines ap- pearing on the following pages, for the Santa Fe at least ? Mr. Steinberger: Yes, sir. Mr. Phillips: In the present rate in the third from the last column — you have a caption there of "Present Rate," — is that present rate the rate for coal burning engines ? Mr. Steinberger: Yes, sir, and also for oil burning en- gines, as this passenger service — that is on page 1, you under- stand — and there is no differential for coal or oil burning engines. Mr. Phillips: No differential? Mr. Steinberger: In passenger service. Mr. IMiillips: You stated, I believe, that the Atchison, To- peka & Santa Fe are tabulated on the following pages, or in the following ])ageK, in the same manner you liave ex])lainod on the first page? Mr. Steinberger : Yes, sir. 431 Mr. Pliillips: Well, on page 3, just for a little further ex- jjlaiiatioii, about the middle of the page, you use tiie term ''Prairie" type, and also the ''Pacific" type, twice in the engines grouped under 140,()()() i)Ounds and less than 17(),0()() pounds. Why do you do that? Mr. Steinberger: The first Prairie type engine indicated by (c), we have a footnote at the bottom of each page that (c) indicates compound locomotive. The same also refers to the Pacific type. Mr. Pliillips: Why arc they sliowii twice whci-c they both carry the same rate t Mr. Steinberger: The comi)ound engine, while tlie rates are the same for the engineer in passenger, by going across to the firemeii's rate, you will find the rate on the compound engine is only $2.85, while on the engine with the star the rate is $3.75. paid because the engine has a cylinder 24 inches and over, as indicated by the star. Mr. Phillips : Now, turn to page 5, i)lease, through freight service. All the preceding pages referred to ))assengei' service, did they not '! Mr. Steinberger: Yes, sir, on the different districts. Mr. Phillips: Are the present rates shown for firenuMi. in through freight service, the 'coal burning rates on the different types of engine? Mr. Steinberger: Yes, sir, exclusively. Mr. Phillips: What would be the rate for oil burning en- gines in through freight service? Mr. Steinberger: 15 cents less, in each instance, for fire- men. Mr. Phillips: Would that api)ly on all classes of engines Mr. Steinberger: Yes, except for engines with cylinders 24 inches and over in diameter, or compound engines weighing 215,000 pounds and over on drivers, and Mallets. Mr. Phillips: Is there any differential on engines of that type on account of fuel ? Mr. Steinberger: No, sir. Mr. Phillips: Is this true of all railroads, parties to this movement ? Mr. Steinberger: Yes, sir, all except one. Mr. Phillips: What one? ♦ 432 Mr. StciiilKMucr: Tlic ( liicaiio. lux'k Island «.V i'a<'iH<-. Mr. Pliilli|)s: What is the dit^Vrence on that lino.' Ml'. Sti'inhorger: Tlu'v show a 15 cents ditTeivntial be- tween eoal and oil in freight service, on engines having cylinders 24 inches and over in diameter. Mr. Phillii)s: Do yon know why that is? Ml-. Steinherger : No, I do not; hnt I have been informed hy the chaii'man that this 15 cents differential really does not apply. Mr. Phillips: That tliey have no engines? Mr. Steinl)ergci- : That they have no oil bnrning engines of that class. Mr. Phillips: l)iit it does appear in the schedule? Mr. St;ine, nincli further down the ])age? Mr. Steinberger: Yes, sir. Mr. Phillips: The rate requested is sliglitly higher Tor firemen when you reach the 14(),()()0 to 170,0()():' Mr. Steinberger: Yes, sir, in each instance it is. Mr. Pliilli])s: In the different groupings the rate retjuested for firemen graduates — increases slightly in cacli different grouping '! Mr. Steinlierger: Yes, sir. Mr. Philli])s: But the rate paid for any or all of the en- gines of the ty])e described, if used, is in all cases much greater than the rate recpiestedf Mr. Steinberger: Yes, sir. Mr. Phillips: That is, from the note made, or the three stars appearing at the foot of the page? That a])])ears to be true all the way do\m for firemen and for engineers, until you reach the Mallet engine. Mr. Steinberger : • Yes, sir. Mr. Phillips : Does this grouping show a very large Consol. or Consolidated engine in use there! Mr. Steinlierger: No, sir, the largest engine shown here on the system is between 170,000 pcmnds and 20(),()0() pounds on drivers. Mr. Pliilli])s: Would you consider that a large Consoli- dated engine, as compared with some of the Consolidated en- gines on other railroads! Mr. Steinberger: Well, that is not the largest type of Consolidation engine, but that is a good size engine. Mr. Philli]»s: 'I'hey show no Mikado engines or any larger type of single ex]>ansion engine? Mr. Steinberger: No, but since this table was prepaied they have placed in service a Mikado tyi)e engine that weighs 197,300 pounds on drivers, which would fall in tlic same grouj). Tbev are not shown in this table ;it all. 436 Air. Pliilli))s: But tlicy are larger tliaii tlic t'ligiiies in use at the time your tables were ])i'e|)arefl, or at the time you began your ]n"e)iai"ation ? Air. SteinluMger : Ves, they are the same ))ei'eeTita,ge of engines; ])ay the same rate. AJr, Phillips: They would pay the same rate. Mr. Steinhergei-: They earry the same rate, I am informed. Air. Phillips: Turn to the Chicago & North Western Rail- road, on page 41, please. Air. St<'inl)erger: Before you leave this Canadian Pacific, l)y referiing to ]nige 29, you will find that the rates as shown on i^age 27, as ajiplying between Field and Laggan, also apply in the British Columbia division, mountain subdivision east of Revelstoke, Xakusp and Slocan branch, and all subdivisions and branches on district 3, west of Columbia River. Air. Phillij)s: Is that an entire division according to your undertanding :' Air. Steinberger: 1 understand that — while I am not sure about this, I have been told it is 140 miles and branches. Whether the l)ranches are included in the 140 miles or not, 1 do not know. You will have to ask someliody off the Canadian Pacific Railway. Air. Phillips : AVell, was this caption taken from the schedule here, where it reads: "All Subdivisions and Branches on District 3"f Air. Steinberger: That is the exact language that is in the schedule. Air. Phillips : So that these rates which are in eflfect on that part of the C. P. R. ap])ly to branches as well as to main line service '! Air. Steinberger: Evidently, from this heading. Air. Phillips : You got that impression from the schedule and the information you have at handf Air. Steinberger : Yes, sir. Mr. Phillips: Mr. Steinberger, if you desire to nuike any further explanation of this table, or any of the following tables, I wish you would feel at liberty to do so at any time. Turn to page 41, please, the Chicago & North Western Railway. Mr. Steinberger : Y^es, sir. Mr. Phillips: You show two 4-4-0 engines in the 80,000 437 pound class, and also a -i-G-O engine, one l)ein^- an S-wImm-I and the otlier a 10-wheel, I take it. Mr. Steinberger : Yes, sir. Mr. Phillips : Is it shown that any of the engines in the next class, 80,000 to 100,000 pounds, draw a higher rate of pay? That is, either the 8-wheel, for either engineers or firenu'n, or the 10- wheel, in the first class f Mr. Steinberger: No, the 10-wheel in the first class pays $4.95. The 8-wheel in the second class pays $4.60. That is the engineer's rate. Mr. Phillips : Then a 10-wheel, under this grouping of engines by weight on drivers, would pay less than an 8-wheel ? Mr. Steinberger : Yes, sir, if she weighed in a lesser group. Mr. Phillips : But, as they stand today the lighter engine on the driver pays more than an engine heavier on the drivers! Mr. Steinberger: Yes. Mr. Phillips : How do you account for that f Mr. Steinberger : Well, I don't know. That is the way they are shown in the schedule. Mr. Phillips: Then you do not attempt to account for it? Mr. Steinberger : No, sir, I do not. Mr. Phillips : For the engineers on that same railroad, Mr. Steinberger, these 10-wheelers weighing less than 80,000 pounds on drivers, pay just the same as an engine weighing between — a 10-wheeler weighing more than 100,000 pounds on the drivers! Is that correct! Mr. Steinberger : Yes, sir. Mr. Phillips: And is the same true of firemen! Mr. Steinberger: Yes. Mr. Phillips: Then evidently a much larger engine, an engine having far greater weight on drivers, does not pay an increased weight to the engineers and firemen in proportion to her increased power! Mr. Steinberger: No, sir, not in this particular instance. Mr. Phillips: I do not suppose you know mucli about tractive effort, do you! Mr. Steinberger: No, sir. Mr. Phillips: You have not anything in your tal)les along that line! Mr. Steinberger : No, sir. 438 Mr. Pliillips : Wore these rates compiled, Mr. Steiiiberger, witliout re,ij:ar(l to hours per (hiy or gi-adient differential, or any other arbitrary allowance:' Mr. Steinberger : Yes, sir. Mr. Phillips: You simply quote the rates and show them as applying to different engines? Mr. St('inl)erger : Yes, sir. ^\v. Phillijjs: And on some of the roads these rates apply where there is an eight hour day? Mr. Steinberger: Ves, sir. Mr. Phillips: And on others where there is a ten hour day? Mr. Steinberger: Yes, sir. Mr. Phil]i])s: Do you know wliethei- or not there are more ten hour loads than eight hour roads? jNlr. Steinberger: Oil, yes, there are more ten hour roads than eiglit hour roads. Mr. Pliilli])s: Do you know whether the rates are generally higher on ten hour roads than on eight hour roads? Mr. Steinberger: Well, I don't know about that. Mr. Phi]li]is: Have you noticed, in compiling your tables, any material difference? Mr. Steinberger: No, not much difference. Mr. Phillips: Is it your impression that the rates are, gen- erally speaking, about the same on an eight hour basis as they are on a ten hour basis? Mr. Steinberger: Yes, sir. Mr. Phillips: Does that a])|ily to both freight and passen- ger service? Mr. Steinberger: No, sir, that has no refei-euce to passen- ger service whatever. Mr. Phillips: Your statement was with reference to through freight service? Mr. Steinberger: Through freight service only. ^Ir. Philliiis: AVhere you have a five hour day, or a ten hour day in through jiassenger service, do you note any differ- ence in the rates as they ap])ear on the different roads? Mr. Steinberger: No, sir, there is no record made of roads having a longer day in ])assenger service, in this exhibit what- ever. 439 Mr. Pliillii)s: I iiiidcrstaiid tliat tliis «'\liil)il has im ictVr- erice to hours whatever. Mr. Steinberger: No, sir, it is not supposed to. Mr. Phillips: Well, in comi)iling your work, did you have occasion to observe the roads on a five hour basis and those on a ten hour basis, for passenger service? Mr. Steiuberger: They are i)ractically the same. Mr. Phillijis: The rates would be practically the same? Mr. Steinberger: Yes, sir. Mr. Philli])s: AVliile you had no occasion to clieck thai, it was your observation that tliey were about tlic same ? Mr. Steinberger: Yes. Mr. Phillii)s: You could see no noticeable difference? Mr. Steinberger: No, sir. Mr. Phillips: A road of the character of the Denver & Rio Grande for example (not asking you to define the method of conii)uting pay on that particular road), but if you undei^stand that they have a short day or a limited number of miles con- stituting a day, did you notice any particular difference in the rates on that road from the other roads that are on a full one hundred miles or a longer number of hours i)er day '! Mr. Steinberger: No, sir, they appear to be practic^ally the same. They run about the same. Mr. Phillips: Take the Utah Lines of the Denver & Rio Grande Railroad. 1 believe they have a four hour and a half day, or four hours and 20 minute day, or something like that, in passenger service; do the rates there seem to be about the same as on roads having a ten hour day for passenger service? Mr. Steinberger: Yes, sir. Mr. Phillips: I believe on that road tliey have a forty-four mile day also, and a sixty-five mile day, perhaps, and while I do not ask you to give an expert opinion on the different methods of computing the pay, did you notice any marked difference in the basic rates there, as between roads on a different basis? Mr. Steinberger: No, sir. Mr. Phillips: Do you know whetlier or not tlic VA l*aso »S: Southwestern Railroad is an eight hour road or a ten hour roadT Mr. Steinberger : An eight hour road in freight service. Mr. Phillii)s: Turn to page 73, please. The rates here shown as being in effect for cngiiuMM-s and fii-oincn arc about the 440 saiut', <)i- at least not lower, than on tlie ten lioiir road ojK'rating the saiiH' territory. Ml-. Steinl)erj>:er : Yes, sir, they are higher. Mr. INiillij.s: Tliey are lnij:her? Mr, St('inl)er^er : Yes, sir. ^Ii-. Phillips: And the three stars appearing- in the last eoluniii for firemen, and also in ] daces in the column for en- j^ineers, showing- ])ercent of increase, would indicate that even thou««h lliat is an eight hour road, the rates are now higher, and no increase is i'('(|uest<'d foi- cngineei's and fii-enien on that rail- road. Mr. Steinherger: Yes, but there is an explanation to make in connection with this road. AVhile a $0.75 Hat rate is shown in freight service down to engines 200,000 to 225,000 pounds on drivers, yet the fact remains that there is a $3.55 rate in eifect from Durand to Carrizozo. 1 understand that this rate is only on a seventy mile division. Mr. Phillii)s: Well, would \ou understand that the $3.55 rate applied for seventy miles? Mr. Steinberger : Yes, sir. Mr. Philli])s : That a fireman would not be required to work one hundred miles? Mr. Steinl)erger : Yes, sir. Mr. Philli])s: He would get $3.55 for seventy miles? Mr. Steinberger : Yes, sir, but the $3.75 rate a])i)lies only to the rest of the entire system. Mr. P]iilli])s: ^Ir. Steinberger, you stated, or I got the im- pression at least, that there was no increase requested on this road. That is not true of passenger service, is it? Mr. Steinberger: No, sir. Mr. Philli])s: Nor is it true of eng'in<'ers on some of the freight engines? Mr. Steinberger : Xo, sir. Mr. Phillijjs: And wliere the three stars are shown, that would indicate that although it is an tnght hour road, that the rates now ])aid are as high or higher than the rates requested? Mr. Steinberger: Yes, sir. Mr. Phillips: Turn to page 80, please, Mr. Steinberger. For engineers and for firemen, beginning with the third group, or the grou]) of 100,000 to 140,000 pounds on drivers, I note there 441 that the rates seem to he soinewliat mixed, ^i.^O, $5.0o, $4.80, $5.05, $5.05, $5.30, $5.30, and then eontinnini^- ni the next ^roup, 140,000 to 170,000 jiounds on drivers, the rate for the engineer is $5.05, $5.30, $5.30, $5.05, and so on down tlie colnnin. Ihiv*' you any ex])lanation for this? Mr. Steinberger : No, sir. Those are the lates as tlicy ap- pear in tlie scliednle, based on the weiglit on (liivers. Mr. Philli}>s: That is-, o-roupini;- them uHih'r the \vci,i;ht on drivers basis would indicate that tliere is a ,i>reat valuation in rates on en,<;ines of the same weiglit on drivers, oi- ap[)roxi- mately the same weij>ht on drivers within the limitation of these gTon])s '■ Mr. Steinberger : Yes, sir. Mr. Pliillips : They are different tyi)es of engines, I take it, from the number and the wheel descri])tion ? Mr. Steinberger : Yes, sir. Mr. Phillips: But they are apparently within a nan-ow limitation of size when measured by weight on drivers.' Mr, Steinberger : Yes, sir. Mr. Phillips: Were you present during the testimony of the preceding witness ? Mr. Steinberger: Yes, sir. Mr, Phillips: Did yon liear the explanation of the relation between weight on drivers and tractive power? Mr. Steinberger : I did. Mr, Phillips: AVell, if there is any weight to be attached to the statement ma(h% would you understand that the tractive power of the engines would be within a reasonable limitation the same or somewhat similar? Mr. Steinberger : Yes, sir. Mr. Pliilli})s: Their drawbar pull or tonnage cai)acity wonhl all be witiiin a medium range? Mr. Steinberger : I would think so. Mr. Phillips: All approximately tlie same:' Mr. Steinberger: I would think so. Ml'. J^hillips: Tiiere would be variations, of course? Mr. Steinberger: Yes, sir. Mr. I^hillips: Those variaticms, I presume, arc (luitc dis- tinct in specific or exceptional cases ? Mr. Stein})ergei- : Yes, sii*. U2 Mr. Pliilli])s: Xow, turn to the next l)ai;(>, switcliing- lates. You sliow a uunilcr of i-atcs for ])otli on^iueers and liremoii in switcliin^ service. (";iii you <'\i)laiii wliy this is? Mr. Steiiihei-.ner : Yes, sir. Take the first rate — our l)asis for switeliinp: rates are in two .nrou})s, tliat is, tliree i»:roups; less tlinn 140,(M)(> and over 140,()()() pounds on dii\-ers, and Mallet tyjje engines. Take the first grouj) of engines rated at $4 and $4.25. That is first and second class yards. That applies to the firemen also, ^\•it]l a rate of $2.40 for second class an lliat: 1 )ir<'s\inH' it is. Mr. Phillii)s: So far as your experience as an engineer or fireman lias gone, yon Itelieve it is? Mr. JSteinberger : I never worked for any road hut one. Mr. Phillips : Then if this engine is owned by the Missouri, Oklahoma & Gulf, and is ever eou])led to a freight train, the rates shown here are the rates that would ai»i)ly, according to the schedule of that railroad? Mr. Steinberger: Yes, because they have only one rate. Mr. Phillips: T wish you would please turn 1o ]»age 153, the Southern Pacific Pailway, mountain divisions. Mr. Steinberger: Yes. Mr. Philli]is : From your table I would understand that the rates in effect for engineers and firemen on the mountain divisions of the Southern Pacific Company are in the main as high or higher than the rates requested? Mr. Steinberger : Yes. Mr. Phillips: ^J'liat is true for engineers, is it, also? Mr. Steinberger : It is, down to the ^Nfallet. Mr. Phillips : Down to the Mallet engines ? Mr. Steinberger: Yes, sir. Mr. Philli])s: Do they use Mallet engines in ])assenger service — or do you know? Mr. Steinberger : i do not know. Mr. Sheean: May I interrupt right there, so that I will understand this? Mr. Phillips: Certainly. Mr. Sheean: That ])age 15o to which you refer is purely the mountain divisions, is it not? Mr. Steinberger: Yes, it is so stated at the top of the page — ^mountain divisions. Mr. Sheean: Just so that I may understand that — Mr. Steinberger: Yes. Mr. Sheean: Tn the present rate you have stated in that column the rate which is s]K^cifically applicable to mountain ter- ntory? Mr. Steinberger: Yes, sir, as I understand it. Mr. Sheean: And then opposite that, in "rates re(|uested," you have set out the rate ap])licable to valley territory? 445 jVlr. Stein be I'ger: Yes. Mr. Sheoan : If you add the ten per cent to the rate which would be applicable, practically all of these stars would dis- appear from that page, would they not? Mr. Steinljerger : Not the ten per cent, hardly. I do not think that. Of course, it would reduce the percentage, as far as that is concerned. Mr. Sheean: You begin at $4.90 as the present rate, and take ten per cent of $4.50, or 45 cents, and add it to $4.50 and you have $4.95 as against $4.90? Mr. Steinberger: Yes. Mr. Sheean: So that, as I said, it would take out prac- tically all the stars. Mr. Steinberger: Yes. Mr. Sheean : In fact, as spread here on this page, it is the comparison of a valley rate with a mountain rate, is it not? Mr. Steinberger: Yes, it is misleading. Mr. Sheean: Misleading? Mr. Steinberger: Yes, as far as the rates are concerned. Mr. Sheean: I interrupted at that point just to be sure whether I understood it. Mr. Steinl)erger: This states at the to|) in a note: " On all divisions where grade is one and eight-tenths per cent or over, an increase of ten per cent over following rate is requested." I do not know whether it would apply on this division or not. This grade would have to be 1.8 per cent or over before this ten ]>er cent would apply. So, not knowing the gradient of the road or having a print of the profile, we would not know what percentage of grade that is. Mr. Sheean: Pardon the interruption, I just wanted to make sure on which basis it was made up. Mr. Phillips : All right. The purpose of the examination is to have it clearly understood. Mr. Sheean: Yes. Mr. Phillips : I believe you said this was misleading. Do you not understand that those are the actual rates in effect on all the mountain divisions? Mr. Steinberger: Yes. 446 Mr. Phillips: Then you do not mean that it is misleading? ^li-. Sti'inbor^cr: Oh, no, not the porcentag-es botwoon the two. If tliis grade is 1 .S or over, these rates requested would not apply. The ten per cent increase would apply. ^fr. ]*liillii»s: if it was not a 1.8 ])er cent grade, the rate (pioted is absolutely correct.' Mr. Steinberger : Yes. That is what I am explaining. Mr. Phillips: Ami would not be misleading then? Mr. Steinberger: No, sir. Mr. Phillips : You do not know, of course, whether addi- tional miles are allowed in addition to this rate. I believe you said you took none of that into consideration I Mr. Steinl)erger : I did not. Mr. Phillips: But the rates quoted here would be the actual rates in effect according to the schedule 1 Mr. Steinberger: Yes. Mr. Phillips : And, according to the request, you show the difference between valley territory and mountain territory on the Southern Pacitic Railway? Mr. Steinberger: Yes. Mr. Phillips : As well as you might compare one railroad wdtli another railroad? Mr. Steinberger: Yes. Mr. Phillips : You do not know how much mountain terri- tory the Southern Pacific has? Mr. Steinberger : No, sir. Mr. Phillips: Or how much territory these higher rates would cover? Mr. Steinberger: No, sir. Mr. Phillips : < )r whether the grade is 1.8 per cent or not? jMr. Steinberger: I do not know. Mr. Phillips : Evidence was given here this morning that a $3.90 rate applied on the Southern Pacific. Do you include that in the tables here? Mr. Steinberger: No, sir, it is not included in the tables. I understand that the $3.90 is paid in passenger service on all engines weighing over 140,000 pounds, between Eoseville and Truckee, if not turned at Blue Mountain. As far as that rate is concerned, it is not included in this table at all. Mr. Phillips : It is not in the table? 447 Mr. Steiiiberger : No, sir. Mr. Phillips : Is it shown in the schedule t Mr. Steinberger : Yes, it is shown in the schedule. Mr. Phillips : Why did you not include it in your table? Mr. Steinberger: To tell the truth about it, it was over- looked. Nobody in the country knew it but you. We did not tell the chief about it. Mr. Phillips : Did I understand you to say that rate of $3.90 would apply in the passenger service to all engines weigh- ing over 140,000 pounds on drivers? Mr. Steinberger : Yes, and in freight service, in the moun- tain division, the $4 rate would ajiply on all engines weighing over 140,000 pounds on drivers. Mr. Phillips: Do you know whether the Southern Pacific has anj' engines weighing more than 140,000 pounds on drivers? Mr. Steinberger: Yes. Mr. Pliillips: Do you know whether they are used on that particular division? Mr. Steinberger: Yes. Mr. Phillips: They are? Mr. Steinberger: Yes. Mr. Phillips : Please turn to page 157, Southern Pacific (Sunset Lines). Do you mean Southern Pacific (Sunset Lines) or Southern Pacific (Atlantic System) ? Mr. Steinberger: It used to be called the Southern Pa- cific (Atlantic System) ; it is now called Central Lines, or Sun- set Lines. Mr. Phillips: Do you know whether any more lines are included in the operation mider Sunset Lines? Mr. Steinberger : No, sir, I do not know. Mr. Phillips: Your table is intended to cover what has be,en connuonly known as the Atlantic System? Mr. Steinberger: Yes. Mr. Phillips: I notice in your rates here for firemen you use fractions and odd figures. Can you explain why that is? Mr. Steinberger: That is the way they were given to me by the chairman of our committee on that road. Mr. Phillips: This, then, is one of the tables which was not ])repared by ^^ourself? Mr. Steinberger : Yes. 448 Mr. IMiilli])s: ^'()u understand it, or have evei-y t'ailli in tlie accuracv of the figures? Mr. Steiii])erger : I (h) not understand it. 'Sir. l^hillijjs: Well, you understand it to be correct.' Mr. Steinl)ei*^ei-: ^'es. Ml-. IMiillii>s: Perhaps I am asking- too inucli of you, Mr. Steinbergei-. What I started out to say was that you under- stand it to be correct? Ml. SteinluMger : Yes. Ml'. l*liilli]»s: 1 )o you know wliy tlie general cliairnian was recjuested to ])rei)are lliis rate.' Mr. Steinherger: Sinii)ly ])ecause we couhl not get tlie rate. The Sunset l^ine rates foi- lirenien air on a tii)) l»asis, and not knowing the distance l)etween ])oints, or any of the technicalities of this schedule, he was re(]uested to make uj> these rates, and that i> wliat he uavc us. .Mr. Philli])s : Do you believe he would have had less trouble if some staudanl metliod of classifying engines was genei'ally adopted? Mr. Steinherger: V(\s. we did not have any such trouhle on any of these other roads. ^\v. Phillips: Js this rate made on a mileage basis? .Mr. Steinherger: On a triji basis. Mr. J*hillips: You said, 1 believe, that if a mileage l)asis was universally adopted, and some standard uniform method for classifying loc omotives, it would be much easier to reach a com- parison between the dil'ferent railroads and to understand just what is being paid to engineers and firemen? Mr. Steinherger: Yes. Ml'. Phillii)s : Mr. Stone, do you wish to ask any questions? Mr. Stone: ^\v. Steinherger, will you refer back to page 1 for a moment ? Mr. Steinherger: \"es. Mr. Stone: I would like to ask you a question in regard to the Atchison, Topeka & Santa Fe (Proper). For the group of locomotives ranging from 140,000 to 170,000 pounds weight on drivers the ]ier('entage of increase of wages requested a]> pears to be from 2'2 to 28 per cent, while for the same engines on the other divisions of the railroad it is a much smaller increase. How do von account for this ? 449 Mr. Sti'i]il)erger: Are you a8kiii<^' about pa^^c 1.' Mr. Stone: Take page 1, down in the third grouji, 140,()i)i) pounds to 170,000 pounds, on a Consol. engine, tlie lireiuan's rate is given at $2.65. Mr. Steinherger: Yes. Mr. Stone : And the percentage of increase is 22.64 ? Mr. Steinherger : Yes. Mr. Stone: While )-iglit over on the next page, on the region between Pueblo and Denver, the same Consol. engine is shown as carrying a rate of $2.94. Mr. Steinherger: Yes. Mr. Stone: You do not mean to convev hv that the idea that it is a \ery high increase for this other territory '! Is it not simply an indication that it is a very low spot in the firemen's wage ? Mr. Steinherger: Yes, it is nnich lower than ou the dis- trict between Pueblo and Denver. Mr. Stone : In compiling these rates do you not find these loM' spots all over the different roads f Mr. Steinherger: Yes. Mr. Stone: On some particular class? Mr. Steinherger: Yes. Mr. Stone : Take for exami)le, on page 44, the Chicago, Burlington & Quincy. They have a rate there for the Mikado type weighing less than 200,000 pounds on drivers, in through freight service, of $5.40 ? Mr. Steinherger: Yes. Mr. Sheean : What page is that '! Mr. Stone: Page 44, Mikado type weighing less than 200,000 pounds on drivers; Avhile on the Chicago, Milwaukee & St. Paul, on page 50, for Mikado type weighing less than 225,000 on drivers it is $5.55, and on page 91, on the Illinois Central, for the same type of engine, a Mikado weighing less than 225,000 pounds on drivers, that pays $5.40. Now, these are the modern type locomotive, yet there is a discrepancy of 15 cents between these tAvo rates. Mr. Steinherger: Yes. Mr. Stone: That simply indicates a low spot again ? Mr. Steinherger: I am afraid you are overlooking some- thing in these rates, though. Take the Mikado type engin<' ou 450 tho r., B. tV g., oil page 44, the t'reighl rate for that engine is $5.40. ISIr. Stone : That is the way I have it here, I believe. Mr. Steinberger : Yes. Now, turn to the next ^1 ikado rate you call attention to on page 50 — Mr. Stone: The Chicago, Milwaukee & St. Paul. Mr. Steinberger : Yes, the $5.55 rate. Mr. Stone: Yes. Mr. Steinberger : You will notice that the rate above that in the same group for the Mikado engine is only $5.30. Mr. Stone : $5.80. Mr. Steinberger: Yes. One of those engines weighs 215,000 pounds and over on drivers and the other one does not. Mr. Stone: A difference probal)ly of 500 pounds. ^Ir. Steinberger: Yes, and a 25 cent differential. Mr. Stone: Yes, T knew that. T think that is all. (^Ross exa:\iixation. Mr. Slieean: Mr. Steinberger, turn to pages 1 and 2, the Atchison, To])eka & Santa Fe, to wliieh Mr. Stone n'ust adverted. Mr. Steinberger: Yes. Air. Sheean: If the territory between Pueblo and Denver, on ])age 2, is not a district which under the proposition sub- mitted here would take that added ten ])er cent, rate, then the percentages canied in tlie last column on the page would not only a])pioacli bul pio)ni))ly would pass the percentages shown on page 1, would they not? Mr. Steinberger: Yes, it would a]iply, just the same as >ou referred lo llie Southefii Pacific a short time ago. ^Ir. Sheean: As a matter of fact, the i)art of the Atchison, Topeka & Santa Fe system shown on ]>age 1, all territory except between Pue])lo and Denver, is now on a different rate tlian the one shown on i>age 2, is it not? Mr. Steinl)erger: Ves, on a different basis. Mr. Sheean: AVliere the diff(M'ential exists — Mr. Steinberger: I don't know whether the gradient be- tween Pueblo and Denver is sufficient to carry this 10 per cent increase, as shown at the head of this table. I don't know tliat. ]\fr. Sheean: And I take it it is so, Mr. Steinberger, you have no know]<*dge as to the conditions on this famous twenty- 451 two iiiile run from Field to Laggaii, on which ihcy pay $')M for all engines except Mallets? Mr. Steinberger: Bnt this rate does not only apply on the Alberta division between Field and Laggan, but on the British C^ohunbia division, as shown on the second page following, it also applies. I don't know anything abont that district eitliei-. Mr. Slieean: And the ])rovision there is Just the same on all engines except the Mallets, they take the $r).G5 rate? Mr. Steinberger: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean : T take it, Mr. Steinberger, f lom what you have already said, that >ou have no knowledge as to how many of these engines of different types are operated on any ))avticular part of these railroads? ^Ir. Steinberger: No, sir. Some classihcation books and blueprints show that, but we have made no effort whatever to keep track of the number of engines of different classes. How- ever, that information, 1 remember, w^as requested from the (leueral Managers' Connnittee, and we never got it. Mr. Sheean : Well, there isn't anywhere in this comi)ilation — 1 haven't run over it all — there is no eifort to assemble any information as to the number of engines that take a jiarticular rate? Mr. Steinl)erger : No, sir, no attempt whatever has been made. Mr. Sheean: Now, of course, Mr. Steinberger, that may be in these schedules, certain rates which would be apjilieahlc to engines if oi^erated on certain divisions? Mr. Steinberger: Yes, sir. Mr, Sheean: And as to wliether thev ever were opci'ated on such divisions, or ever took such rates, you don't know.' Mr. Steinberger: No, sir. Mr. Slieean : Noi- does this purport to carry any sncli in- formation? Mr. Steinberger : No, sir. Ml'. Sheean : There was one question asked you, Mr. Stcin- hergei-, which, as I understand it, was whether there was, in any of the schedules, a higher rate as to any or all classes of engines, in the present schedules and in your ]iroposals — is thcro any i-oad or schedule which carries a higher rate of pay ou all 452 the engines which that road has in operation than tlie propuisal here? Mr. Steinberger: No, sir. ^Ir. Slieean : I thonght perhaps you did not intend, in using that expression, *'any or all" to infer or inii)ly that sneh was the case. .Mr. Steinberger: No, sir. Mr. ISheean: AVlien yon speak of there being 33 roads in which you can find or have found a particular rate as liigli or higher than that, that may be a rate for a particular engine 0]ierated in a i^articular way, that would carry tliat rate? ^Iv. Steinberger: Either for engineers or firemen? Mr. Sheean: Either for engineers or firemen. Mr. Steinberger: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean: And whether there is now or ever has been a schedule in ojieration on that road, under which that higher rate was ever paid, you cannot say or attem])t to sliow 1)y tliis sum- mary ? Mr. Steinberger: in manv instances we actually know that these engines, where the excessive rate is paid, are really in service. Mr. Sheean: In many cases? Mr. Steinberger: Yes, sir, practically all cases exce])t you take the C. P. R. and maybe other roads. Mr. Sheean: AVhat I meant was that this exhibit does not purport to show that fact. Mr. Steinberger: No, sir, it does not. Mr. Sheean: There is not in this book, is there, Mr. Stein- berger, any comparison of present rates in work train, ])usher, hel]^er, wreck, mine run, belt line or transfer service? Mr. Steinberger: Yes, sir. For transfer service there is a group of small roads in the back of the book, beginning witli page 187. You wdll notice that there is the Baltimore & Ohio Chicago Terminal, which shows a transfer service and suburban passenger service. Also the Chicago & Western Indiana and the Belt Eailway of Chicago. The other roads are just simply terminal roads and refer to switching service only. Those two roads are the only ones that refer to transfer service in any ]iar- ticular at all. ^fr. Sheean: Under the proposal as submitted. Mr. St«'iu- 453 berger, there is, as you oi' course know, a request that puslier, helper, work train, wreck, mine run services all pay a tlirough frei,i2:ht rate. Mr. Steinberger : Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean : Have you made any com])arison or tabu- lation of the present work train rates with the rates proposed in this submission"? Mr. Steinberger : None whatever. Mr. Sheean: Or as to any of the other items in tliis un- classified service! Mr. Steinberger: No, sir, except transfer, in regard to these companies back here. (Indicating in book.) Mr. Sheean: And that is the part you refer to here? Mr. Steinberger : Yes, sir. Mr, Sheean: l^ou haven't made an extension anywhere of this increase of 10 per cent! Mr. Steinberger: No, sir. Mr. Sheean : Do you know where that 10 per cent is to be applied ? Mr. Steinberger: No, sir; there is nothing whatever in this book to indicate where it should be applied. Mr. Sheean : I mean to w^hat you apply the 10 per centf Mr. Steinberger : No, sir. Mr. Sheean: And is there any comi)arison of way freight rates! Mr, Steinberger: No, sir, Mr. Sheean : You have some figures here as to the South- ern Pacific. The Southern Pacific, I believe, has been spoken of as being on an eight hour basis'? Mr. Steinberger: Part of it. Which system? Mr. Sheean : The Pacific system. Mr, Steinberger: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean: That eight hour basis, however, provides that one, two or three trips may be mav cii^iiu's, 140,000 pounds to 170,000 |)ounds, paying $:i.()0 for tironien there, liave we not? Mr. Steinl)erij:er: Yes, sir. ^Ir. l^liillips: And the rate per cent of increase recpiested is$l.:i9? Mr. Steinherger: Yes, sir. Mr. Phillii)s: 1.39 per cent? Mr, vSteinherger : Yes, the same as the North Western. Mr. ['hillii)s: Xow, turn to the Chicago, Milwaukee & St. Paul on page 50, Take the Consols, witliin tliat same class, 170,000 to 200,000. Mr. Steinberger: Y"es, sir. Mr. Phillips : Tt ai>pears that the present freight rate there is $3.50 for firemen? Mr. Steinberger: Yes, sir, Mr, Phillips : The increase requested there, if granted, would amount to 7.14 per cent, I have selected these roads, Mr. Steinberger, l)elieving that they operated in territory similar to tliat th)-ougli wliicii tlie Santa Vo runs west out of Chicago. Mr. Stciulx'rger : Yos, sir. Mr. Phillips: Do you know of any reason why these same engines should iiol pay the same rate as ))aid on tlie Santa Fe, as is general 1\ i)aid on other roads? Mr. Steinberger: No, I do not. Mr. Phillii)s: AVould not those figures indicate, that, instead of (piite a large increase being asked for the Santa Fe Road, that that road has enjoyed a very low rate, has secured the services of its firemen at a very low rate per cent of the rate thai is now being ])aid on other railroads? Mr. Steinberger: Yes, sir. Ml-. lMiilli))s: Most of the roads ojx'rating in llic same ter- ritory. ii(»t in iiiounlaiu tci ritoiy, but in similar teri'itory through llic Mississippi Valley, are now i»aying nearly as much, if not quite as much, as is now being recpiested? Mr. Steinl)erg('i-: It a]>i)ears that way, yes, sir. Mr. Phillii»s: P>ul the Santa Fe is considerably below on the same class of engines? Mr. Steinb(>rger: Yes, sir. Mr. Philli])s: Then, it is because of another one of those low spots, that this ai)parent increase of 13.64 ])er cent shown on tlie Santa Fe lines for this })articular class of engine, and 465 an increase of 1.39 per ,cent shows on some of the other roads operating through the same territory? Mr. Steinberger: Yes, sir. Mr. Phillips: That is all. Mr. Stone: I would like to ask one more question, if I might. Have you the rates and the blueprints that these were com- piled from, so that if the representatives of the Managers desire to check up with you, that they can be checked over? Mr. Steinberger: Yes, sir. RE-CROSS EXAMINATION. Mr. Sheean: Mr. Steinberger, having those three roads be- fore you there, the Santa Fe, the Chicago & North Western and the Chicago, Milwaukee & St. Paul, about which the last ques- tion was asked you by Mr. Phillips, having that alone, and without knowing any other provision than the schedule of any one of those three companies, with reference to when the day begins and ends, with reference to whether there be or be not initial or final terminal de\aj, as to whether there be or be not preparatory time allowance, are you able to tell which one of the schedules of those three roads will pay the most money to the engineers and firemen who have a one hundred and twenty mile run? Mr. Steinberger : I will say that, while I do not know what the schedule provisions are in regard to terminal delay, or any of those trimmings, by simply taking the rates as they are, it is evident that the North Western and the Milwaukee pay a much higher rate for that class of engine. Mr. Sheean: Mr. Steinberger, assuming that all of the provisions as to when a day begins and ends, overtime basis, initial and final terminal delay, are the same, of course we will agree that if that high rate lie applied to a uniform basis, that the higher rate will produce the greater jiay. Mr. Steinberger : Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean: But, Mr. Steinberger, without knowing any-, thing about the provisions of unj one of those schedules as to whether one does, and the other does not, make provisions as to when the day begins; without knowing whether they do or do not make the same provisions as to the beginning and ending of the day; as to whether they do or do not make any ])rovision 466 with reference to preparatory time, initial or final terminal de- lay; are you able, from merely knowing the rate and having no knowledge of the other facts that enter into a schedule, able to state which one of those rates will produce the greatest com- pensation in runs of equal length from Chicago? Mr. Steinberger : In preparing this statement as stated on the first pages, no consideration was taken, whatever, as to when overtime begins. Mr. Sheean: Mr. Steinberger, as I understood your an- swer to Mr. Phillips' last question, you indicated or intimated that the Santa Fe was paying less to its men for service out of Chicago than the other roads were. . Mr. Steinberger: As shown by this exhibit. Mr. Sheean: And that is assuming that the other provis- ions of the schedule that do operate in a compensatory w^ay are identical. Mr. Steinberger: Well, this exhibit is not based at all on overtime, and has no reference wliatever to overtime rules on the Santa Fe or the C. B. & Q. or the North Western, either, as far as that is concerned. Mr. Sheean : And without having some knowledge of these other rules, you could not tell which would produce the largest sum of money on a run of equal length out of Chicago? Mr. Steinberger : No further than what this exhibit has to show. Mr. Sheean: That is all. Mr. Phillips : Mr. Steinberger, all of the roads which I have named in asking my questions are ten hour roads, are they not, ten miles per hour road for freight service? Mr. Steinberger: Ten hours a day, yes, sir. They are not shown in this table shorter than the ten hour day. Mr. Phillips : The Kock Island could be included, could it not, as having a rate of $3.60 for a Consol. engine of that type? Mr. Steinberger: Yes, sir. Mr. Phillips: Could not the comparison be carried into other territory and include the Union Pacific, which also paral- lels the Santa Fe west of the Missouri Eiver, or in a measure runs through the same territory, and perhaps include other roads through the Northwest, where the $3.60 rate would apply, where the $3.25 applies to the Santa Fe? Mr. Steinberger : Any road except the ones sho^vIl in this group having shorter than a ten hour day. 467 Mr. Phillips ; Now, if it could be shown that the initial and terminal delay, or the ''trimmings" as you characterize them, are less favorable on the Santa Fe than on any of these other roads, on any one of them, or on some of them, could you under- stand that not only was the rate of pay higher on these other roads, but the other perquisites were also much to the firemen's advantage? Mr. Steinberger : If I knew that such was the case, Avhy, certainly. Mr. Phillips: But you do not know! Mr. Steinberger: No. Mr. Phillips : But if that could be shown, you would have no hesitancy in saying that the rates were much better, but the conditions of service were likewise better? Mr. Steinberger: Yes. Mr. Phillips: By conditions of service I refer to these ''trimmings" Avhich you include in the general category? Mr. Steinberger: Yes, sir. Mr. PhilliiDS : I think that is all. Mr. Sheean: And, Mr. Steinberger, you must and do al- ways consider the trimmings and perquisites in connection with the price paid to firemen, both what it means to the company and to the men? Mr. Steinberger: I would say so, yes, sir. Mr. Nagel : You do not Avant them to be regarded as trim- mings merely, because they constitute a substantial part of your claim, don't they? Mr. Steinberger : Yes, sir. Mr. Stone : Is it not a fact that those working conditions which you desig-nate as "trimmings" are really a part of what have been granted to the men in order to make up a legitimate day's work? Mr. Steinberger: Yes. They are schedule provisions negotiated the same as the rates. Mr. Stone: And thej^ have always been so considered in making up the part of the men's compensation? Mr. Steinberger: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: For the day's work? Mr. Steinberger: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: You could not tell by looking at the rate on those three roads, could you, which engine would be the easiest to fire, or which one you would rather take out? 468 Mr. Steiuberger: No, sir, I have been out of service so long I would not care to say that. Mr. Stone : Well, if by checking up these rules or working conditions that they speak of, it could be shown that the Santa Fe is much less liberal than the other two, you would agree that it was not as good a job, would you not? Mr. Steinberger: Oh, it would make the variation wider in favor of the other roads, of course. Mr. Stone: That is all. Mr. Sheeau : Just one question, Mr. Steinberger. You said it was so long since you have been out of service. How long since you quit running an engine? Mr. Steinberger: 1904. Mr. Sheean : That is all. Mr. Shea: Mr. Steinberger, speaking about these "trim- mings," it does not necessarily mean that even on a road that allows initial or terminal delay that the engineer and fireman will draw wages from that rule every trip, does it? ^\v. Steinberger: Oh, I wouldn't think so, no, sir. Mr. Shea : AVeli, it is possible for an engineer and fireman to go out and come back, day in and day out, week in and week out, month in and month out, without making a cent, so far as it applies to initial or terminal delay, is it not? Mr. Steinberger: Yes, sir, and also including overtime. The Chairman: Is that all? Call your next witness. Mr. Stone : Mr. Chairman, in view of the fact that it is only a few minutes more, if it is agreeable to the Board, we would much prefer not to put our next witness on until the next session, because it is going to be a long drawn out affair with our next witness, and it will take all day at least. However, we are ready to go on if it is the wish of the Board. I simply offer that as a suggestion, because I know we are not going to meet tomorrow. The Chairman: I think we shall save time in the long run by adopting your suggestion. Mr. Stone : I understand that when we adjourn we do not meet again until Monday morning. Is that correct? The Chairman : That is correct. The Board will adjourn until 10 'clock Monday morning. (Whereupon, at 4:25 o'clock P. M., December 4, 1914, an ad- journment was taken until 10 o'clock A. M., December 7, 1914.) 469 IN THE MATTER OF THE ARBITRATION between the WESTERN RAILWAYS and BROTHERHOOD OF LOCOMOTIVE ENGINEERS and BROTHERHOOD OF LOCOMOTIVE FIRE- MEN AND ENGINEMEN under the Act approved July 15, 1913, by agree- ment dated August 3, 1914. Chicago, Illinois, December 7, 1914. Met pursuant to adjournment at 10 o'clock A. M. Present: Arbitrators and parties as before. Mr. Phillips: Mr. Carter, will you take the stand, please f W. S. CARTER was recalled for further examination, and having been previously sworn, testified as follows : Mr. Trenholm: I would like to make a statement to the Board. On Friday, in the testimony of Mr. Steinberger, the Omaha schedule was questioned, and I promised to look it up and see whether any change had been made in the rule as it is written in the 1910 schedule. I. find I was in error, that that rule applies today. What misled me was the fact that a little earlier we had made a modification of that rule exempting yard men and trans- fer men. Mr. Stone: I would understand that you do still have a junior rate for road men on the Omaha road? Mr. Trenholm : As the rule reads, yes, sir. Mr. Phillips: Mr. Carter, have you prepared some data showing the comparative hourly rates of pay, as between en- gineers and firemen and employes in other leading industries in the Western territory? Mr. Carter : I have. Mr. Phillips: I have here, Mr. Carter, a volume entitled 9^ 470 ** Rates of Wages Per Hour, Increase in Rates of Wages Per Hour, and Hours of Service Per Day— In Western States and Provinces." Do you identify this as the volume prepared by yourself? Mr. Carter: 1 do. Mr. Phillips: If the Board pleases, I desire to introduce this as exliil)it No. 5. (The document so otfered and identified was received in evidence and thereui)on marked "Employes' Exhibit No. 5, December 7, 1914.") Mr. Phillips : Will you please explain the purpose of this exhibit? Mr. Carter : The purpose is set forth in the first subdivi- sion here, which I shall read : "The information published in this statement is i)rimarily for the purpose of demonstrating : " (1) That rate of wages of Locomotives Engineers, Fire- men and Hostlers have been and are now less than rates of wages paid in other leading industries ; ''(2) That Locomotive Engineers, Firemen and Hostlers have received less increase in wages, 1914 over 1907, and 1914 over 1910 than have emploj^es in other leading industries. ''(3) That a 'day's work' required of Locomotive En- gineers, Firemen and Hostlers is greater than is required by employes in other leading industries ; *'(4) That, while required to work hours far in excess of employes in other industries, Locomotive Engineers, Firemen and Hostlers receive much less compensation for 'overtime.'" Mr. Phillips : Have you, in ])reparing this work, compiled some basic tallies from which this information may be derived? Mr. Carter: I have some tables in here that may be termed "basic," but of course you understand that they are derived from supporting data ; that is from other authorities. To that extent they are derivative tables ; but so far as the use in this report is concerned they are basic tables. Mr. Phillips : For the purpose of explanation, Mr. Carter, will you ])lease turn to page 18 of this exhibit, table 7, "Increase in rates of wages per hour of Locomotive Engineers and Fire- men in freight service of western railroads, from 1907 to Novem- 471 ber 1, 1914," will you kindly explain the method used in prepar- ing this table? Mr. Carter: An attempt, in the beginning-, was made to include all railroads ; but inasmuch as this research is limited to the rates of wages per hour, we found it necessary to eliminate certain roads, because of the complications that would arise should we include them in this list. For instance, we first had the Canadian Northern and then eliminated it, because on the Canadian Northern they have a nine-hour day ; and in order to avoid as many complicated situa- tions as possible we removed from Table 7 the Canadian North- ern Railroad. We have several eight-hour days. That is, we have several roads where they have the eight-hour day, and there might be some question as to what the rate of wages was per hour when compared with ten-hour rates. Therefore, we eliminated those roads. We have one road in particular where the rate of wages is on the trip basis. That is, they get so much money for going from one terminal to another. We reached the conclusion, or at least I did, that to attempt to include those railroads would only bring up discussions that would not be beneficial. I think on the pages from 18 to 58 you will find thirty ten- hour roads reported. The first column, which is the same on each page for the thirty railroads, shows the railroads and the classes of the engines in use. We not only show the railroads, but, where the same rate is not paid on all portions of the same railroad, we show the different districts. In order to present information from a different viewpoint than was shown in Exhibit 4, presented Friday afternoon, I have described the locomotives in this first column just as they ap]iear in the official schedules. For instance, taking the Atchison, Topeka & Santa Fe, east- ern and western lines, Chicago & Canon City, including l)ranclies, the first engine reported there is an eight-wheel engine. In this exhibit there is no attempt even to intimate how large 472 that eight-wheel engine is. Of conrse, the rate being low, indi- cates that the engine is small. The next yon will find is a ten-wheel engine, less than 100,- 000 pounds on drivers. Now, yon will note from that, that on this road at least, and on some other roads they may classify one engine by its poinilar name, and the very next engine by its proper name and make the dividing point by weights on drivers. The Atchison, Topeka & Santa Fe Railroad being the first in the alphabetical list, appears first here. There was no pur- pose whatever in presenting the Atchison, Topeka & Santa Fe for any reason not shown in the fact that in any alphabetical list of railroads the Atchison, Topeka & Santa Fe appears first. In some lists the Atchison, Topeka & Santa Fe Coast Lines appear before the Atchison, Topeka & Santa Fe Eastern and Western lines, because ' ' C " comes ahead of " E ; " but, in this instance, considering that the Atchison, Topeka & Santa Fe eastern lines are perhaps the parent company, we have included them first. The Gulf, Colorado & Santa Fe is also a subsidiary line and a part of the Atchison, Topeka & Santa Fe, but in this list we have placed it under the letter G instead of under the letter A. I think you will find in the next column that the engines here reported are identically the same as reported in the schedules. You will note, hoAvever, that in this list of engines appearing for the Chicago & Canon City, including branches, have taken both from the engineers' schedule and from the firemen's schedule. Where you see a list of rates extending across the entire page, it indicates that the engine is classified in both the en- gineers' and firemen's schedule the same; but where you find a leader line for the engineers and rates for the firemen, or vice versa, it indicates that there is a difference in the manner in which these engines are described in the Engineers' and Fire- men's schedules. But if you will take the Engineers' schedule and the Firemen's schedule you will note all of those descrip- tions therein. Turning from that page, to others, you will find that we continue the Atchison, Topeka & Santa Fe, then next give the Pueblo and Denver division, then the LaJunta and Raton, Las Vegas and Albuquerque, then south of Albuquerque and Clo\ds 473 and Belen, then the Starkville, Hebron, Blossbiirg and Waldo bl'anches ; bnt in the Santa Fe district you will note, when com- paring the Santa Fe rates with other roads, that they have prac- tically different schedules for different sections of the same road. It requires a considerable number of pages to show the rates of wages for the different schedules on the Santa Fe lines, while such roads as the Chicago, Burlingion & Quincy, which I consider equally as important a road, perhaps employing prac- tically as many men, it only takes half a page to tell the whole story. You will note by turning back to page 18 that there are two general columns, each subdivided into five columns; or, rather, under the Engineers' heading you will find five columns, while under the Firemen's heading you will find six columns. The first column for both the Engineers and Firemen shows the rates of wages per hour that appeared in the schedules of wages in 1907, after the settlements or wage agreements of that year. The first column under Engineers and the first column under Firemen, except where i't says "fuel" there, are the rates that appeared in effect in 1907. These are taken from the schedules then in effect so far as the firemen are concerned. We have the original schedules and they have been carefully checked, and those are the rates that appear therein. You will understand, however, that where the schedule says $4.55 a day, per ten-hour day, we simply pass the decimal point one space to the right and show^ that it is 45.5 cents per hour. It is very easy to reduce the wages from the daily rate to the hourly rate on a ten-hour road. Not so easy on roads where they have eight and nine hours. As I stated, the firemen's rates are taken directly from the schedules secured in 1907. The engineers' rates are taken from a volume published by the Brotherhood of Locomotive En- gineers, entitled "Official Eeport of Agreements between Rail- way Officials and Engineers, 1907-1908." In this volume, the date that each schedule became effective is shown. In some instances, however, the Engineers did not have their schedules rewritten until early in 1907, but the wage rate was granted and went into effect in — Mr. Phillips : Pardon me, may I interrupt you ? 474 Mr. Carter: 11)08, I should liave said. Mr. Phillips: Yes, 1908. Mr. Carter: Yes; but the agreement was readied and the schedule of waj^es became effective some time in December. I know that it was a Christmas present to the engineers. Now, it may appear in this volume tliat a rate became effective in March, 1908, so far as the schedule is concerned, but it was effective by virtue of the Chicago Agreement between the Western Railroads and the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engi- neers, reached in the month of December. The second column under "Engineers" and the third col- umn under "Firemen" are taken from the schedules in effect in 1910— Mr. Stone: If I might interject, Mr. Chairman, I do not desire any error to creep into the record, and I realize that Mr. Carter is stating something here from memory: It was in 1910 that we got the so-called Christmas present, and the 1907-1908 settlement was made some time, I think, early in February. Mr. Phillips: Yes, February. Mr. Stone: Some time in February we reached an agree- ment, and it was applied early in 1908 to the different schedules. Mr. Carter: Yes; my error was in using the 1907 instead of 1910. In this second column under ' ' Engineers ' ' and the third column under "Firemen," the wages are taken from the wage settlements of the year 1910. So far as the Firemen are con- cerned, they are taken directly from the schedules bearing date of that year. So far as the schedules of the Engineers are con- cerned, what I have just said about 1907 should apply to 1910; that is, it was in December, 1910, they made their wage settle- ment, and it may appear on some of the Engineers' schedules that it was not applied until January, or February, or March, 1911; but the fact remains that the wage rate was in effect in December, 1910. The third columns under "Engineers" and "Firemen" show the rate in effect in 1914, and by a glance at these two columns for 1910 and 1914, you will observe there is practically no change, which indicates that there has been no wage settlement since the settlement of 1910. The first column under the "Firemen" shows the fuel. There are two rates, according to the fuel used. Mr. Phillips: Did I understand you to say that you had 475 included only ten-hour roads in this compihition / Mr. Carter: Yes, sir. Mr. Phillips: And only those on a ten-hour basis f Mr. Carter: When I say "ten-hour road" I mean a road on a ten-hour basis. Mr. Phillips: Do I understand that you have included only freight service? Mr. Carter: Only freight service. Let me explain that no effort was made to go into any other class of service except freight service until after the book was in print; and, later on, I added two classes of service, which will be explained before I get through. I might say I did not have time, from August until now, to do much more than I did do. Mr. Phillips: With regard to this fuel, you explained here in the first column, in the Firemen's tabulation, that it so per- tains to fuel, and you show two rates for firemen throughout the table, as far as I have looked into it? Mr. Carter: Yes, sir. I have given the oil rate and the coal rate for all locomotives in freight service on all roads listed, regardless of the fact that the engine cannot be both oil and coal at the same time. Mr. Phillips: Have all of the roads both kinds of fuel, engines burning oil and ,coal? Mr. Carter: No, not all of them, but the number of them is rapidly growing. Mr. Phillips: Is the number of roads using oil as a fuel, or changing, from oil to coal from time to time, varying — in other words, do roads change from oil to coal, and from coal back to oil again? Mr. Carter: Without having any specific knowledge upon the subject, I so understand. Mr. Phillips: Do these classifications of engines which you have used here, which I understand are taken from the present schedule classifications, indicate the number of roads where rates are now based, wholly or partly, on weights on drivers? Mr. Carter: Yes, I think by reading that first column on those pages, included in table 7, you will find that a large number of railroads base their rates, on at least a portion of their engines, on weights on drivers. Mr. Phillips: Well, on page 24, now, — just to get that 476 straiglit, ill the second entry, under the name of the railroad, it shows a ten-wheel engine, less than 100,000 pounds on drivers — it gives the rates all the way across the page for engineers and firemen; and the next entry is for a ten-wheel engine, 100,000 pounds or over on drivers. Do you know why 300,000 pounds was selected as the dividing line? Mr. Carter: No, sir, I do not. Mr. Phillips: Down the page a little further it shows Consol. less than 170,000 pounds on drivers, for engineers, and the next line Simple Consol., less than 135,000 pounds on driv- ers, for firemen. Have you any means of knowing why those were made different for engineers and firemen? Mr. Carter: Just an arbitrary division, I imagine, between two weights of engines. Mr. Phillips: You don't know whether 171,000 pounds would be nearer the right figure for engineers, or 134,000 pounds for firemen ? Mr. Carter: No, sir. I think you will find by looking over these classifications for engines, that there is no scientific rule for a division of locomotives by weights on drivers, and — par- don me for suggesting at this time — ^it was to avoid what seemed to be a lack of rule that our committee grouped the engines by weights on drivers at what they thought would be a fair divid- ing line. Mr. Phillips: That was your purpose in adopting a gen- eral rule? Mr. Carter : I think that was the purpose of the committee. You will understand, that this proposition was drafted by a sub-committee that reported back to the general committee, and the general committee approved or adopted the reports of the sub-committee, sometimes modifying them. Mr. Phillips : Was this sub-committee in possession of in- formation of the desires or opinions of the managers on this subject? Mr. Carter : I presume so. They were all from the west- ern roads. Mr. Phillips: Do you think they were influenced in pre- paring this table by what they understood to be the wishes of the railroad people? Mr. Carter: I am sure they did, so far as adopting the 477 weights on drivers for pay for engineers and firemen. I won't say the divisions were made to meet any special request of the railroads. Mr. Phillips: And in reaching the divisions contained in the proposition submitted to arbitration, they tried, as nearly as they could, to reach a division that would differentate be- tween different classes and sizes of engines. Was that the purpose? Mr. Carter: Yes, sir. Mr. Phillips : And presumably went about it in the same way the Santa Fe did in reaching the 135,000 and 170,000 pounds ? Mr. Carter: I don't know what the Santa Fe officials had in mind when they made the different divisions of weights on drivers. That applies to other roads. I think you will find quite a lack of uniformity in the methods of these railroads in dividing by weights on drivers. Mr. Phillips : The purpose of your committee, in prepar- ing the articles for arbitration, was to secure uniformity, was it not? Mr. Carter: Yes, sir. Mr. Phillips: I believe you called attention to the fact that the tables for the Santa Fe are covered by several pages, 5^2 pages, I believe? Mr. Carter: Five and one-half pages for the Eastern and AVestern lines, and about three and one-half pages for the Coast lines. That is, about nine pages, to show the different rates and different classifications on the Santa Fe Road between Chi- cago and the Pacific Coast. Mr. Phillips: That did not include the Gulf, Colorado & Santa Fe? Mr. Carter: That doesn't include the Gulf, Colorado & Santa Fe. Mr. Phillips: And the Burlington, which is quite a large system of railroad, is all on about half a page, on page 30, is it not? Mr. Carter: Yes, sir. Mr. Phillips: Does the Burlington have any specific method of classifying engines? Mr. Carter : I think, if you will note how they do classify 478 them — tlioy classify tlicin by two nietliods, first by letters and then by numbers, and then they group them for the purpose of fixing wages. For instance, group 1 is made up of engines known as class A-1, A-2, A-3, A-4, A-5, K-6, K-9, H-5, I-l. I would say, however, that there is no information in the sched- ule that would indicate what type of engines they are, or what their weight on drivers is. It is only by taking the schedules of the Engineers and Firemen, and then taking the blue prints, or official descriptions of locomotives, published by the com- pany, that you can properly group them by Aveights on drivers. Mr. Phillips : Nothing to show their tractive power or other dimensions f Mr. Carter : Nothing. I would say, however, that the rate is a pretty good index of the increased tractive power, Mr. Phillips : You feel safe in assuming that, as the rates become higher, very likely they are for larger types of engines? Mr. Carter : I think that is very likely. Mr. Phillips : The Burlington has the same classification for engineers and firemen? Mr. Carter: Yes, sir. Mr. Phillips: You stated, I believe, that you believed the space occupied by the tabulation of these engines, showing their w^eights on drivers and the rates applicable, would be much less if some such plan as ^veights on drivers were adopted as a means of fixing rates of pay for engineers and firemen ? Mr. Carter : Maybe I am mistaken, but I believe one page would show accurately the rates of w^ages of all engineers and firemen on these thirty roads, or less than one page ; and under the present methods it takes forty pages, I believe — from eight- een to fifty-eight — to communicate the same information. Mr. Phillips: You spoke of the Santa Fe, Eastern and Western lines. I believe you explained that that did not include the Coast lines, or the Gulf, Colorado & Santa Fe? Mr. Carter : No, sir. And, for years, in our schedules and in referring to our schedules, we have always referred to that portion of the Santa Fe between Chicago and Albuquerque — I think those are the two points — as the Santa Fe proper, and I think formerly some of the Santa Fe literature referred to it in that manner ; but in recent years I think they have referred to the Santa Fe Eastern lines under one general manager, and to 479 the Santa Fe Western lines under another general manager, but both of these grand sub-divisions are under one higher operating- official. I am not attempting to explain the details of it, but that is generally, I think, what is done. The Coast lines seem to be operated more or less distinctly from the line east of Albu- querque, as they do the Gulf, Colorado & Santa Fe; but I do not want to pretend that I know exactly how they handle their operating matters or financial matters. Mr. Phillips : But, under the general caption of the Atchi- son, Topeka & Santa Fe, Eastern and Western lines, you mean those divisions and subdivisions of that part of the Santa Fe line commonly known and referred to as the Santa Fe Proper? Mr. Carter: Yes, sir. Mr. Phillips : In the first column, on page 18, Mr. Carter, there is a small ''1" within a circle. What does that indicate — pretty well down on the page? Mr. Carter: That circled 1 was adopted as a reference figure to a footnote that says, *'No engines of this class in service that 5^ear. ' ' Mr. Phillips : Then, we would understand from that, that Mallet engines of neither class shown there, were in service on that part of the Santa Fe line covered by this portion of the schedule, in 1907? Mr. Carter : If they were, no rate was quoted for them in the schedules of Engineers and Firemen, and I want to make it thoroughly understood that for my information I have depended upon the schedule. They may have had Mallets there, but there was no rate for a Mallet in the schedules. Mr. Phillips: Wlien the railroads get new locomotives, presuming they are larger than any in use, or any covered by the schedule rate, do you know what the practice is in paying engineers and firemen? Mr. Carter: Well, it depends largely on what road the latest big engine is introduced. On some roads the committees have no trouble whatever in immediately securing a special rate for that engine. In fact, the men learn in advance that the engines have been ordered, and I am quite sure in some instances they agi'ee upon the rate for that engine before the engine actually reaches the road. On other roads they are less liberal. They sometimes have a rule in their schedules that says all 480 engines above a certain weight or larger, a certain size, will take a certain rate. Now, if it so happens that the new big engine is introduced on the road, I think — at least I have been so informed — I will not attempt to specify — I think that they insist that regardless of the size of the engine it will take the old rate as fixed in the schedule until a different rate is negotiated. But, after an engine of a certain type and weight is introduced on one road, or two roads, and a special rate is established for it, usually it requires but little effort on the part of the engineers and firemen to have all roads ado]it that practically as a standard, or some- thing near akin to tJiat, even though it is not included in the schedule until the next schedule is printed. Mr. Phillips : These reference notes appear to run through the table from place to place, and they mean the same all the way through, do they? Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Phillips : Your reference note 2. reading ' ' Including the principal railroads on 10-hour basis of wages," that I find is in the caption here, would that reference note 2 appear all the way through the table? Mr. Carter: Yes, sir, the caption of Table 7 is ''Increase in Rates of Wages Per Hour of Locomotive Engineers and Fire- men in Freight Service on Western Railroads. ' ' After the word "railroads" there is a circled figure 2, and by referring to the corresponding circled figure 2 at the foot of the page you will find it reads "Including the principal railroads on 10-hour basis of wages." Mr. Phillips: Then your reference here in note 3, "the rates for 1907 and 1910 are taken from wage agreements made effective in those years. Rates for 1914 with few exceptions are the same as 1910" — that is in line with the explanation you made a few moments ago, is it not? Mr. Carter: Yes. The rates in effect in 1914 are practi- ,cally the same as in effect after the wage settlement of 1910. But do not misunderstand me. There are certain variations therefrom. For instance, in 1910, in that schedule a certain engine may not have been in service on a certain road, but, since that time, that engine has been introduced, and it has taken the going rate. I will explain by saying that "going 481 rate" is a term used iu the making of railway employes' sched- ules, which means the rate that is generally in effect in that territory. Mr. Phillips : That is, if one of these large engines to which you referred a moment ago was introduced on some railroad, and after negotiations a higher rate was allowed or paid on that engine than had been paid before on any other class of engines, other roads getting the same kind of engine would pay that as the going rate on that kind of engine. Is that right? Mr. Carter: Some roads do. I understand that some do not. I understand it takes quite an interesting series of nego- tiations before they will do that. I state that, however, without any special knowledge upon the subject. I get that from the general chairmen. Mr. Phillips: It is sometimes necessary to arbitrate before they ,can get those things settled? Mr. Carter: Yes. I make that statement without refer- ring to any special arbitration. Mr. Phillips: You show in these columns of rates here, rates for 1907 for both engineers and firemen. I understand you have taken the rate appearing in the wage schedules of the engineers and firemen on the different roads after their wage adjustments of 1907 had been made? Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Phillips: Now, without referring to the historical mat- ter myself, is it not a fact that the wage settlements of the Engineers, in 1907, were made about February and became effec- tive about that month, perhaps February 1, and the Firemen's settlements were made shortly thereafter and became effective April 1, of that year? Mr. Carter: That was in 1907. Mr. Phillips: Then it was not 1908 before any of these settlements became effective for the roads that j^articipated in the concerted movement of that year? Mr. Carter: No, sir, and my error in making that state- ment was that I had in mind the settlement made in 1910. Mr. Phillips: You had them confused slightly. Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Phillips: Now, for 1907 you use the schedule contain- 482 ing the rates found therein after the wage adjustment of that vear? Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Pliillips: For 1910 you use the schedules containing tlie rates found therein after the wage adjustments of 1910? Is tliat correct? ]\Ir. Carter: It shows the changes in the rates made by the settlements. Mr. Phillips: Without referring to the record, the fire- men's rates of that year became effective as of May 16, did they not? ' Mr. Carter: The award was reached, I think, on June 4, 1910, and made retroactive as of May 16, 1910. I make that statement without referring to the record. Mr. Phillips: Then, if I am correct in this assumption — and if not Mr. Stone will correct me — the engineers reached their settlement on December 24. That was the Christmas pres- ent you alluded to, in 1910, and it became effective as of that date. Is that your understanding? Mr. Carter: I have heard so. Mr. Phillips: Now, although some of those rates may not have been shown in the schedules of 1910, and were not incor- porated until later, possibly 1911, were those the rates you have included in your rate of 1910 here? Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Phillips: And in 1914 you show the rates appearing in the schedule as of 1914? Mr. Carter: We show the rates appearing in the schedules in effect in 1914; but, as stated with regard to other periods, it is possible that since those schedules were printed some of the roads that did not have the larger engines have introduced them in service, and are now paying the going rate on those larger engines, but it is not shown in the printed schedules. Mr. Phillips : If one or two or three wage increases took place between 1907 and 1910, I understand that you would not show the several different rates? Mr. Carter: No, sir, I have not attempted to check each one. Mr. Phillips: You simply show the rate in effect in 1907 and then the rates found in the schedules in 1910 1 483 Mr. Carter: Do not misunderstand me. The schedules reached in 1907 were also in effect in 1910, until the wages were changed for that year. Understand, as I said before, partic- ularly in the case of the engineers, they did not have their sched- ules reprinted until early in 1911, and their schedules may bear date of 1911. But tlie wages shown therein became effective as of December 21, 1910, as I understand. Mr. Phillips: December 24? Mr. Carter : Well, December 24, the ' ' Christmas present. ' ' Mr. Phillips: The point I wish you to make clear if you can, Mr. Carter, is that if two or more increases in pay were granted the engineers or firemen on any railroad between 1907 and 1910, any number of increases, if several were granted, would all be included in the rate sho\\Ti in the schedules for 1910. Mr. Carter: Yes, if such a condition exists, but I do not know that such a condition does exist. Mr. Phillips: You do not attempt, then, to show the va- ried increases, if such varied increases occurred, but you show the rates in effect in 1907 ; you show the rates in effect in 1910, and you show the rates in effect in 1914, according to the re- spective schedules in effect in the different years. Mr. Carter: Yes, and on each locomotive shown in the schedule, and on each railroad, and on each di\dsion, if they have different rates on each division. Mr. Phillips : So that so far as the roads eniunerated here are concerned — thirty roads — Mr. Carter: Thirty roads. It takes forty pages. Mr. Phillips: Thirty ten hour roads? Mr. Carter: Listed here. Mr. Phillips : Freight service? Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Phillips: So far as they are concerned, that is the fact? Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Phillips : You referred to some rates as being diff'erent in this Santa Fe table. Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Phillips : I believe you stated that the Santa Fe was not selected by design f 484 Mr. Carter: No, sir. Mr. Phillips: It occupies the same position, I suppose, in the wage movement as the Baltimore & Ohio does in the East- ern movement — it is first at bat. Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Phillips: You referred to the difference in the rates on the different districts or the different divisions. On page 18 again, for firemen, taking the rate of the Mikado, Decapod and Santa Fe type of engines on the Chicago & Canyon City including branches, the first part of the tabulation — Mr. Carter: Yes, that is from the Firemen's schedule. Mr. Phillips: Yes. You show a rate of 30 cents. I sup- pose that would be three dollars per day of ten hours, would it? Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Phillips : Three dollars for a hundred miles ? Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Phillips: That is in 1907. And you show a rate of 37.5 per hour in 1910 or 371/2 cents per hour. That would be $3.75 per hundred miles? Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Phillips: You show the same rate in 1914? Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Phillips : That is also true of the Simple Engines with cylinders 24 inches or over in diameter, and compound engines weighing 215,000 pounds and over on drivers. Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Phillips: The same statement applies? Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Phillips: Now, on the next page? Mr. Carter: AVhat division? Mr. Phillips: La Junta and Eaton, Las Vegas and Albu- querque. Take Mikado, Decapod and Santa Fe types. It ap- pears that the rate there was 341/2 cents in 1907. That would be $3.45 a hundred, or $3.45 a day, would it? Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Phillips: And that rate is now, or, in 1910, was 37.5, and the same in 1914, 37.5? Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Phillips: Or 3.75 per hundred? Mr. Carter: Yes. 485 Mr. Phillips: It would appear that the rate for Chicago to La Junta was much less on the same type of en,Q:ine than from La Junta west. Can you explain that? Mr. Carter: Well, they have a higher rate. Mr. Phillips: I mean that the rate in 1907 was much less, Mr. Carter? Mr. Carter: Yes, the rate is higher on your La Junta and Raton, Las Vegas and Albuquerque division, tlian it was on the Chicago-Canon C'ity, including branches, and if you look at Pueblo, on page 19, you will still see a different rate between Pueblo and Denver. Mr. Phillips: Yes, for the same type of engine? Mr. Carter: Same engine description. Mr. Phillips : Between Pueblo and Denver at that time they paid 33.5, and you show a rate in 1910 of 37.5, or 37 Vi* cents an hour. Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Phillips: The rate is now standard or uniform, is it? Mr. Carter:- For engines of that description, weight and size of cylinders. Mr. Phillips : Then again on page 21, South of Albuquerque and Clovis and Belen it shows a rate of 32.5. I am using these figures as decimal figures; I think that is permissible. Mr. Carter: 32.5, yes. Mr. Phillips: 32.5 an hour in 1907 and 37.5 per hour in 1910, and the same in 1914? Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Phillips: Still a different rate? Mr. Carter: Yes, and you have skipped another one. Mr. Phillips: I was not trying to catch them all; the book is too large. Mr. Carter: On page 20, you will find there is still a differ- ent rate, or, I won't say it is still a different rate — yes, it is still a different rate between Raton and Las Vegas. Mr. Phillips: If you will look up the page a little higher there, Mr. Carter, I want to ask you about your Atlantic, Pacific, Prairie, Mogul and Consol., less than 143,700 pounds on drivers, rates fixed for engineers. Have you any means of knowing how that particular weight was decided upon? Mr. Carter: I have no knowledge. They just seemed to 486 have liad Ihat dividing- point. I should imagine, however, that they perhaps had different classes of engines that fell above and below that point and they wanted some point to divide the wages on. Mr. Phillips: My reason for calling attention to that was that it had escaped my notice in speaking to you a few minutes ago about the weights on drivers and the reasons, and that seemed like such an odd weight. You have no other explana- tion than that they probably had some different weights of engines, one above and one below that figure? Mr. Carter: I think our divisions are more scientific. Mr. Phillips: Now, turn to page 22, please, Starkville, Hebron, Blossburg and Waldo branches, these Simple Engines, with cylinders 24 inches or over in diameter, and the Mikado, Decapod and Santa Fe type, they seem to come in there, there are three groups of them, evidently, and they pay a rate of 28.5 cents an hour or $2.85 per hundred, that is, in 1907 — Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Phillips: And they paid 37.5 in 1910 and the same in 1914? Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Phillips: The same engine, evidently? Mr. Carter: I think it is the same group of engines. Mr. Phillips: And on the same railroad all the way? Mr. Carter: The same railroad. Mr. Phillips: Do you know whether the 3.75 or the 37 V2 cents per hour rate is now in effect on various other railroads throughout the same territory ? Mr. Carter: Why, I think so; it should be. Mr. Phillips: Do you kno\s^ what the rates were on the other roads prior to 1910, hourly, or per hundred miles, for an engine of similar type? Mr. Carter: I don't think that any other road than the Santa Fe had this huge locomotive in service, at least there were no rates for engines with cylinders 24 inches or over in diameter. I think, if you will look through the table, you "will find that in nearly every instance where the 37.5 rate appears for firemen in that cohmm, for 1910, you won't find any rate for that engine in 1907. You will find a circle figure 1, which means that there were no engines of that type in the service 487 of that road for that year, so far as the schedules show. As I said before, they may have had that engine in service, but there was no rate shown for it in the schedule. Mr. Phillips: Have you any means of knowing whether these engines are used on these particular districts now? Mr. Carter: The schedule says so. Mr. Phillips: The schedule shows a rate, but does it say the engine is working there? Mr. Carter : I will have to confess I do not know whether they have got any locomotives there or not. They may have airships ; but the schedule provides a rate for those engines on those divisions. Mr. Phillips : There would be no means of comparing the engines for which the rates have just been quoted, with the engines of other roads, would there? Mr. Carter: Yes, sir. Mr. Phillips : According to the present methods of classi- fication ? Mr. Carter: We have done it and presented it yesterday in Exhibit 4 — Mr. Phillips: Do you mean Friday? Mr. Carter: Yes, Friday in Exhibit 4. Mr. Phillips: You have compared them on a weight on drivers basis, have you not? Mr. Carter : That is the only way you can «ompare them. Mr. Phillips: But, I mean in going through your tables here, there is no means of comparing engines on one road with the same kind of engines on another road? Mr. Carter: None whatever, unless they give the weight on drivers. If you find there that the Mikado engine under a certain weight on drivers is paying a certain rate, and over that weight on drivers is paying a higher rate and then are so fortunate as to find another railroad that makes a division of the same weight on drivers you would be able to compare the rates in that specific case. I do not believe you \vill find it, however; they all have different methods. Mr. Phillips : Now, let us turn to the next column a mo- ment. These increases — Mr. Carter: What page? Mr. Phillips: Well, we will begin with page 18 again for 488 the purpose of exemplification. Your fourth and fifth columns in the tabulation under the general head ''Engineers," show the per cent of increase received, first, increase 1914 over 1907 ; and in the second column, increase 1914 over 1910. Is that correct ? Mr. Carter: That shows the exact increase that has been received on each of those engines for the period covered in this report, the percentage of increase. Mr. Phillips : This is the percentage of increase based on an hourly rate? Mr. Carter: On an hourly rate. Mr. Phillips : You have reached the hourly rate by divid- ing the daily rate by ten, these being ten hour railroads? Mr. Carter: In effect I did that, but I only had to just shift the decimal point one point over to the right to get the di\asion. Mr. Phillips : That is because the schedules are on a deci- mal basis, they all go by tens? Mr. Carter: Yes, sir. Mr. Phillips: And, you in effect divide the daily rate by ten, by moving your decimal point one point to the right, and thereby you establish the hourly rate? Mr. Carter: If the rate for a fireman was 3.75, in the rate column it would appear 37.5. The rate per hour is 37.5, in that case, on a ten hour road. Mr. Phillips: All of these percentages show that hourly basis here? Mr. Carter: All on an hourly basis; it has nothing to do witli the mileage system. Mr. Phillips : Being on a ten hour basis, however, would it be a true indication of the percentage of increases of the daily basis! Mr. Carter : It would be the same. Mr. Phillips: "With the exception of the change of the decimal point? Mr. Carter : That is all. I mean to say that the daily rate has increased in exactly the same percentage as the hourly rate. Mr. Pliillips: The per cent of increase, 1914 over 1907, Mr. Carter, as shown in the column under "Engineers", shows 8.79 per cent on the first engine named or described, an eight 489 wheel engine; that includes all of the increase for the period 1907 to 1914, does it not? Mr. Carter : Yes. On the 16th of next May it will be five years for firemen. Mr. Phillips: Five years for firemen? Mr. Carter: I think so. Isn't it I Mr. Phillips : Your table shows 1907 to 1914. Mr. Carter: Well, four years last May 16th. I said next May 16tli would be five years. Last May 16th it would be four years. Let's see if I am right. Mr. Phillips: Take the first column, increase, 1914 over 1907— Mr. Carter: Wait just a moment, I want to correct my- self if I have made a mistake. Let me get straightened out here. Mr. Phillips : Take the first column, increase 1914 over 1907. Mr. Carter: No, but I want to estimate the number of years. Mr. Phillips : Yes, that is what I want to get at. Mr. Carter: The firemen's was from May 16 — No, I beg pardon, from April, and, I cannot remember the date, 1907, as shown herein, up to November 1st, 1914. Figure that out for me, Mr. Stone. It will give you the exact number of years and months. Mr. Phillips: That is seven years and seven months, isn't it? Mr. Carter: Seven years and seven months. Mr. Phillips: Then the column, 1914 over 1907, for fire- men, covers a period of seven years and seven months? Mr. Carter: Have j^ou figured it out! I haven't. Mr. Phillips : I just ran through it. Mr. Carter: I had not anticipated that question. I think anybody can make the calculation by taking a pencil and paper. Mr. Phillips : I do not think a minute calculation is essen- tial. A general statement as to the time, I believe, is sufficient. It is over seven years for the firemen; and, Avith the under- standing that the engineers reached their settlements in 1907, earlier than the settlements for the firemen were reached, it would be approximately the same time for the engineers? 490 Mr. Carter: Yes, it would be eight years next month. Mr. Phillips: Eight years in February, wouldn't it? Mr. Carter: I thought it was January. Eight years in February, then. Mr. Phillips: It is over seven years'? Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Phillips: Then your first column, increase 1914 over 1907, covers a period of something over seven years? Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Phillips: And, you include there in your 8.79 per cent of increase all of the increases received by the engineers whether received at one time or at several different times? Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Phillips : It would all be shown ? Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Phillips : You show a cipher in the next column, show- ing that no part of that increase was received in 1914 over 1910, is that correct? Mr. Carter: That nought appearing in the column ''In- crease 1914 over 1910", indicates that there has been no in- crease shown in the schedule. Mr. Phillips : Then the 8.79 per cent of increase was grant- ed, or became effective, at some time between 1907 and 1910? Mr. Carter: Yes, sir. Mr. Phillips: And no part of it since 1910? Mr. Carter: No, except, where indicated in that column, you will find some engines where they have had an increase. Mr. Phillips : All down that page, as far as I have looked, and on the next page, I see no figures in the last column for either engineers or firemen. Are we to take it from that that no increases have taken place, for either engineers or firemen? Mr. Carter : You can find one on page 21 for the engineers. Mr. Phillips : I have not turned to page 21. Mr. Carter : Well, that is the same railroad. Mr. Phillips : On page 21 of the Santa Fe, now that you call my attention to it, I find an increase of 8.85 per cent 1914 over 1910. Can you explain that? Mr. Carter: You will note that that engine was not in service in 1907. If it was, it was not rated in the schedule. The circle 1 there indicates that there were no Mallets, 275,000 491 pounds or less on drivers, in service on that road, at that time. Without stating it to be a positive fact, it would indicate that when that engine was introduced in 1910, it did not take as high a rate there as was being paid elsewhere, but, later, the higher rate was applied and therefore the percentage of increase, 8.85, was made in the year 1910. Mr. Phillips: Mr. Carter, wasn't your purpose in prepar- ing these tables to include the aggregate per cent of increase in the next to the last column for the engineers? Just look again at the figure we were discussing there ; you will note that there was an increase shown of 8.85 per cent in 1914 ovei' 1910, but no increase shown 1914 over 1907. How do you explain that? Mr. Carter: Without having any special knowledge upon the subject, I should judge, that the Mallets over 275,000 pounds on drivers took the high rate in that year, while the Mallets less than 275,000 pounds on drivers did not take the righ rate until later. Mr. Phillips: I would understand that, Mr. Carter, from our reference note and explanation, but, I would like to have you explain why that per cent of increase, 1914 over 1910, is not shown in the column 1914 over 1907 ? Mr. Carter: There were no engines of this character shown in the schedule for 1907. Therefore, you cannot show a percentage of increase over 1907 for either of these engines. However, you can show an increase of 1914 over 1910 for Mallets weighing 275,000 pounds or less on drivers, because the rate in 1910 was 56.5 per hour, while on that same engine, the rate for 1914 was 61.5 per hour, showing a percentage of increase of 8.85. On the larger engines, the Mallet over 275,000 pounds on drivers, it shows a rate in 1910 of 64 cents per hour, and shows identically the same rate for 1914. Therefore, there is no in- crease or percentage of increase, 1914 over 1910. Mr. Phillips: Then, your reason for not including that percentage of increase in the first column is because it cannot be compared with the year 1907, not having been there ? Mr. Carter : Where a blank space appears in the first per- centage column there for the engineers or firemen, 1914 over 1907, it indicates that there were no engines or there was no engine of that classification shown in the schedule for 1907, and. 492 thorefore, there beiii^ no rate wc cannot show a jiercentage of increase in rate. Mr. I^liillips: The exjtlanations you have made witli re- gard to the Eastern and Western lines of the Santa Fe would ai»ply in a general way to the Coast Lines of the same railroad, would they? Mr. Carter: I think so. I think you will find about the same engine descriptions in the Coast Lines, as on the Santa Fe proper. Mr. Phillips: Do you find that any increases in pay have been granted in the column showing increases 1914 over 1910? Mr. Carter: I don't think there is a single increase on the Coast Lines. Mr. Philli])s: Xow, take the Canadian Pacific, Mr. Carter, on page 27. There is shown, for firemen aj^i^arently, an increase of 1.25 per cent on Mallet type engines, on the Manitoba and Saskatchewan division. The same explanation you have just made with regard to the Santa Fe, where the engine was not in use in 1907, applies here, does it? Mr. Carter: To prevent confusion, will you tell me where that rate appears? Mr. Phillips : On page 27. Mr. Carter: I had the wrong page. Mr. Phillips : About one-third of the way down the page, and, also again, a little more than half way down the page, it shows an increase for Mallet type engines, 1914 over 1910, of 1.25 per cent; it appears in two places. Still further down the page it shows an increase of 2.5 per cent. Mr. Carter: You will understand, that the Canadian Pacific Railroad did not participate in the Firemen's Arbitra- tion in 1910 ; but shortly thereafter I am informed that the Fire- men's Connnittee had no difficulty in having the same rate applied as though the Canadian Pacific Railroad had been a party, and, in addition thereto, it appears they got still higher rates on some of the divisions than were named in the Arbitra- tion Award for the Firemen ; but that is so slightly higher that it does not amount to much. For instance, on Mallet engines, on the Manitoba and Saskatchewan division, east of Laggan and Crows Nest, the rate was 40 cents ]ier hour, while in 1914 it is 493 41^ cents per hour. I don't know why that is. It ap])ears that way in the schedule; I haven't consulted with the connnittee. Mr. Phillips: Do you mean 41 1/^ cents or 401/. cents? Mr. Carter: 40V^ cents per hour. Tliat would be 5 cents a day, I think. Mr. Phillips : In other words, instead of being $4 a day it would be $4.05 a day? Mr, Carter: It would appear that way. Mr. Phillips: Now, just continue down to near the bottom of the page, the Alberta division; you will see on the Cbnsol. and Consol. Compound, Alberta Division (Field to Laggan), an increase of 14.29 per cent 1914 over 1907, and you show an in- crease of 5.26 per cent, 1914 over 1910. Does the entire increase between 1907 and 1914 appear in the 14.29 per cent, as shown in the next to last column? Mr. Carter: Yes, sir. By looking at that you will note that in 1907 they paid $3.50 and in 1910 they paid $3.80, and in 1914 they paid $4 per day. Dividing that by ten, you will see the rate per hour increased in like manner. Mr. Phillips: Then, a part of this increase apparently was granted between 1907 and 1910? Mr. Carter: I think that can be accounted for by the fact that the Canadian Pacific Railway did not participate in the arbitration, and they applied in two different wage increases the same rate received on Mallet engines in the Arbitration. Mr. Phillips: A part of it being applied before 1910? Mr. Carter: Yes, it would appear so. Mr. Phillips: And 5.26 per cent was applied subsequent to 1910? Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Phillips: Well, on the next page, now, is the same true of the first figures, near the top? Mr. Carter: For the Canadian Pacific? Mr. Phillips : Canadian Pacifi,c, page 28. Mr. Carter: Yes, but I want to call attention to an error. Notwithstanding repeated checkings by different persons, some of whom are experts, the increase of 1914 over 1907, shown on the first two engines there, for firemen, is really the percentage of increase of 1910 over 1907. The percentage of increase of 1914 over 1907, instead of being 8.57, is 14.29. 494 Mr. Phillips: The same as on the previous page? Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Phillips: Are the figures the same? Mr. Carter: The figures are the same, but the error was made in this manner: Instead of calculating the increase of the rate shown in the column 1914 over the rate shown in 1907, the percentage was calculated on the rate shown in the column, 1910 over 1914. I can say, however, if you will combine those two percentages of increase in the two columns, it will be approxi- mately the same as if the usual method had been followed. Mr. Phillips: Near the bottom of the page, again, on the British Columbia Division, I find the same figures and the 14.29 per cent in 1914 over 1907, and 10 per cent 1914 over 1907, appear as on the preceding page. Mr. Carter: Yes. That is the way it should appear up there. Mr. Phillips: This is just a mistake in calculation? Mr. Carter: Understand, there was no error in the calcu- lation; the error was in comparing 1910 with 1907 when it should have compared 1914 with 1907. Mr. Phillips: Now, continuing, as we turn these pages, it would appear that in the column showing the percentage of increase 1914 over 1910, a cipher appears for both engineers and firemen, for practically all railroads. Mr, Carter: Very few instances where there is an increase, and then you will find an increase usually not considerable. Mr. Phillips: Turning to page 36, there is an exception, the Chicago, St. Paul, Minneapolis & Omaha Railway, for the engineers, near the bottom of the page, ten wheeler, with trailer, class E, shows an increase of 3.85 per cent over 1910. Mr. Carter: That is accounted for by the fact that in 1907 they probably did not have that engine; at least, there was no rate quoted for that engine. Mr. Phillips: Your reference note so indicates, does it not? Mr. Carter: Yes. In 1910, they had a rate of 52 cents an hour, or $5.20 a day. They increased that rate to 54 cents an hour, or $5.40 a day, between 1910 and 1914, and, therefore, in that instance, there is an increase of 3.85 per cent, 1914 over 1910. Mr. Phillips: I believe you said, Mr. Carter, that you could 495 not state positively what roads were oil-burning or coal-burning roads? Mr. Carter: No attempt was made to show it. Mr. Phillips: If a road was exclusively an oil -burning road, the percentage of increase, as shown here for the different years, would be the percentage for oil burners, would it not? Mr. Carter: Yes, sir. Mr. Phillips: For example, turning to page 41, take the Gulf, Colorado & Santa Fe ; that is an oil-burning road, largely, is it not? Mr, Carter: J think so. Mr. Phillips : You don 't feel warranted in saying so, posi- tively? Mr. Carter : I think every record would indicate that they are. Mr. Phillips: Now, there is no difference in the rates of pay for engineers on account of fuel, I understand. Mr. Carter: None whatever. Mr. Phillips: But, taking the Firemen, as shown on the table on page 41, it would appear that in 1914 over 1907, an increase of 10.91 per cent had been granted, in one group of engines, classified by weights on drivers, and that 10.34 per cent for another group, and 9.84 per cent for still another group, on coal burners. Now, the same groups of engines show an increase of 5.45, 5.17, and 4.92 per cent for oil burners. Now, if the road is an oil burning road, the percentage of increase for firemen there would be as shown for oil burners? Mr. Carter: Yes. Less than 6 per cent in am^ instance on oil burners. Mr. Phillips: No increase for either engineers or firemen in 1910? The Chairman : Less than what per cent ? Mr. Carter : I think you will note in the entire period cov- ering the oil burners, firemen received less than 6 per cent increase. I want to state that it is my opinion that in 1907, or shortly before that time, there were many coal burning en- gines on the Gulf, Colorado & Santa Fe Railroad. At some time, they changed their engines from coal to oil. It is possible that some engine has remained burning coal. I don't think so. It is possible, that, in the future, they may change from oil to 496 coal. The purpose of this statement was to show that if it were a coal burning engine tliis would l)e the increase in rates; if it were an oil burning engine, this would be the increase in rates. Mr. Phillips : Without desiring to take up the time of the Board, unnecessarily, these tables set forth clearly the matters you have explained in detail, do they not, Mr. Carter, so far as rates are concerned f Mr. Carter: Yes, the percentages of increase. I want to call your attention to something that may be misleading on page 18, near the middle of the page. It would appear that Mikado, Decapod, and Santa Fe types, there has been an in- crease of 25 per cent in rates. That is accounted for by the extremely low rate in 1907. You will find the rate much lower than elsewhere. You will find on those big engines on another portion of the Santa Fe they only paid $2.85 a day, 28.5 an hour. Mr. Phillips : On page 22 you will note that on the Stark- ville, Hel)ron, Blossburg & Waldo branches they paid 28.5, and on the Santa Fe 28.3 was paid. Mr. Carter: Yes, as low as 28.3, and so there was an in- crease of as much as 31 per cent in order to come up to the level. Mr. Phillips: You attribute this to the fact that the rate for the engine was extremely lowf Mr. Carter: It was down to $2.83 for a ten hour day, or 28.3 cents an hour. I want to call attention to the fact that the great increase shown does not indicate that they are getting any more money now than on other roads, but they got a great deal lower rate in 1907 than they are getting in 1914. Mr. Phillips : Now, viiW you please turn to page 59. You have here table 8, Increases in rates of wages per hour, May 15, 1907 to May 15, 1913, in seventeen western cities. Will you please explain this table, and its meaning and purpose? Mr. Carter: The beginning of the compilation of Table 7 indicated that if we were to make any comparisons between the wages of engineers and firemen in freight service, and the wages of employes in other industries, we must take the same years. I found that in Bulletin 131, issued by the Bureau of Labor 497 Statistics under date of August 15, 1913, it siiowed tlie rates of wages in many classes of service in sixteen western cities. The first two columns, 1907 and 1910, were copied from Bulletin 131. Subsequently Bulletin 143, issued by the Bureau of Labor Statistics, was taken, in order to find the rates for 191 ;>. You will understand that these statistics are published ap- proximately one year after the reports are made. That is, Bul- letin 143 was issued under date of March 4, 1914, and quoted rates of wages in effect May 15, 1913. That being the last in- formation available, we copied in the third column, in 1913, the rates shown in Bulletin 143. By reading this subhead here, you will see some of the diffi- culties with which we were confronted. This subhead or note reads : ''Derivative table prepared from information published by the United States Bureau of Labor Statistics in Bulletin 131 (Aug. 15, 1913), and Bulletin 143 (March 4, 1914). Bulletin 143 includes unions not found in Bulletin 131, and is more pre- cise in describing class of work. This statement includes only unions reported in both Bulletins 131 and 143. Where descrip- tive titles have been slightly changed, they have been identified by the rate per hour, reported in both Bulletins for 1912." After having copied these rates in the three columns then, in the same manner that we estimated the percentages of in- creases, 1914 over 1907, and 1914 over 1910, w^e here show the percentage of increase of all these employes for the periods covered. We attempted to include one more city than is shown here, that is the city of St. Paul ; but at the last moment we omitted St. Paul Avithout changing the quotation. The reason for omitting St. Paul is that we could not carry the comparisons all the way through. Bulletin 131 shows no reports for St. Paul in 1907 ; and in order that vexatious complications might be avoided, we omitted St. Paul in its entirety. If St. Paul had been reported in 1907 it would have been showii here, and completed the seventeen cities. The cities shown and included in table 8 are Chicago, Illi- 498 iiois; Dallas, Texas; Deuver, Colorado; Kansas City, Missouri; Little Rock, Arkansas; Los An^^eles, California; Minneapolis, Minnesota; Milwaukee, Wisconsin; Memphis, Tennessee; New Orleans, Louisiana; Omaha, Nebraska; Portland, Oregon; Se- attle, Washington; Salt Lake City, Utah; San Francisco, Cali- fornia; and St. Louis, Missouri, extending from page 59 to page 92. The trades include all the trades reported by the Bureau of Labor Statistics in each city. You will note that they vary slightly. That is, Chicago includes reports on a larger number of employes than do some other cities ; but in every instance all the employes reported in all the Bulletins are here reproduced or presented. Mr. Phillips : Then you have taken these figures from the Government reports, and you have omitted St. Paul because one year was omitted from the reports from that city? Mr. Carter: Understand that St. Paul was not omitted. It was included, and it appeared last; but anticipating that wherever there was a possibility of muddying the water it would be muddied, I arbitrarily took it otf, so there could not be any question about it. Mr. Phillips: I note that you included Minneapolis. Mr. Carter: Minneapolis is so close to St. Paul that the Bureau of Labor Statistics did not include Minneapolis until they heard from St. Paul, or St. Paul was determined by where Minneapolis was. Mr. Phillips : You have evidently lived in the Twin Cities? Mr. Carter: No, but I have been there, and have heard them both talk. Mr. Phillips: You show the hourly rate for these given classes of employes, in the divisions, do you, Mr. Carter? Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Phillips: In the first, second and third columns here? Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Phillips: In 1907, 1910 and 1913? Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Phillips: I believe you explained why 1913 was used in compiling these tables, while 1914 had been used in compiling the tables for engineers and firemen. Mr. Carter : Approximately the same rates of wages have 499 been in effect for engineers and firemen since the increases of 1910, np to date. Therefore, the rates quoted in Table 7 for engineers and firemen were approximately the rates in 1913; but I wanted to bring Table 7, rates of engineers and firemen, up as nearly to date as practicable, so I arbitrarily said it was November 1, 1914 ; but the last report issued by the Bureau of Labor Statistics on wages of employes in other industries is as of date March 4, 1914. That is the date of the report, and it is the last report available. It gives the rates for 1913. Al- though the report l)ears date March 4, 1914, it quotes rates for 1913. Mr. Pliillips : Do you say that the engineers ' and firemen 's rates have been, generally speaking, the same since 1910? Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Phillips: Is this also true of other employes covered by these tables? Mr. Carter : Oh, no, they have had increases from time to time. For instance, we will take brick layers in the building trades. The rate there shown for brick layers in 1907 is 621/2 cents an hour, and in 1910 67i/^ cents an hour. Now, it may be that that increase, covering the four year period, may be made up of one increase each year. I only show the rate in 1907 and in 1910, without regard to how many increases were made between 1907 and 1910, and the same ap- plies between 1910 and 1913. Mr. Phillips: I understood you to say your tables from which this information was derived, the Bulletins of the United States Bureau of Labor Statistics, covered only some point in 1913, and bears date some time early in 1914. Do you know whether increases have been received by any of these different employes in any of these different industries since the figures for the reports were furnished to the United States Bureau of Labor Statistics? Mr. Carter: I did not include that in my investigation, but I am informed by officials of other organizations that there have been a considerable number of increases since 1913 up to date. Mr. Phillips: But you have not included them? Mr. Carter: I have not included them, because I did not want to include anything in rates of wages of otlier employes 500 that were iu)t authorized by the Department of Labor of the United States. Mr. Phillii)s: How do the hourly rates of the employes whom you have listed here, taken from these government re- ports compare with the hourly rates of engineers and firemen ? Mr. Carter: Oh, I think you will find about a third of them are higher than the highest rate paid to the engineers on the biggest engines, and I think you will find that about 80 per cent of them are higher than the highest rate paid to locomotive fire- men on the biggest engines. Of course, the difference will be much greater on the smaller engines. Mr. Phillips : Taking this trade you referred to a mo- ment ago — The Chairman: AVliat page are you on? Mr, Phillips : Page 59. Let us begin at the top of the page, Chicago, Illinois, Bakers, first hands, Bohemian Union, receiv- ing 29.63 cents per hour in 1907, 33.33 cents per hour in 1910, and 35.19 per hour in 1913. How do those rates compare with engi- neers ' hourly rates? Mr. Carter: I think you will find them less than engineers' rates. Mr. Phillips: How about firemen? Mr. Carter: Elsewhere I have made careful comparisons. I do not want to turn to that now, but I w^ant to call your at- tention to something that you have overlooked. The rate that you quoted for the Bakers, First hands, Bo- hemian Union, is for day Avork ; but when employes in these in- dustries work at night they receive a much higher rate of w'ages. Mr. Phillips : I have not overlooked that. I had not come to that. I will be glad to have you explain those things as you go along. Mr. Carter: In 1907, the rate for the Bakers, First hands, Bohemian Union, Day work, -vvas 29.63 cents an hour, while the rate for night work was 33.33 an hour, and 1 think if you will go through the list there is something like the same ditference in rates between day and night work. Mr. Phillips: You will find day workers paid a less rate per hour or day than night workers, as a rule. Mr. Carter : I think you will find in all the rates reported by the Government, that where men are required to work at 501 iiigiit at any tinie, they have a special rate for iiijL>lit work, higher, I think, in practically every instance, than the rate for the same work in daylight. I think you will lind also that in nearly every industry aside from railroading, even when no rat*' is provided for night work, they receive time and one-half, if not double time, when they are required to work nights, with tlie exception that some trades will have regular night shifts, and for those exceptions you will see a special rate for night work. Mr. Phillips : Now, take up the building trades for a moment. The next ones listed on the same page are the Brick- layers. In 1907 they are listed as drawing 62i/> cents per hour; in 1910 drawing 67i/> cents per hour, and in 1913 drawing 75 cents per hour. How do those rates compare with our rates for engineers in freight service? Mr. Carter: Much higher than any rate that any locomo- tive engineer ever received, on the hourly basis, I mean. Mr. Phillips : Did some of the other trades pay as high as 75 cents per hour? Mr. Carter: In 1913? Mr. Phillips: Yes. Mr. Carter : I think you will find perhaps four or five or six trades paying 75 cents per hour in 1913, in Chicago. Mr. Phillips: Gas fitters, for example, and inside wire men, plasterers, plumbers, steam fitters and stone masons, ap- pearing in that table. Mr. Carter: I think you will find it as you have read it. Mr. Phillips: Others, carpenters for example, received ()5 cents per hour. Mr. Carter: Also the cement workers (finishers), and the sheet metal workers, outside work. Mr. Phillips: And painters? Mr. Carter: Yes.. You will note by referring to the sheet metal workers that their rate is practically as high as the car- penters' rate, although I must confess that I cannot run my eye down that column fast enough to make the comparison. Mr. Phillips : According to this table the sheet metal work- ers engaged in outside work draw 65 cents per hour, and in gen- eral work inside they draw 45 cents per hour. Cornice and sky- light work showed for 1910 a rate of 50 cents per hour, as com- 502 pared with -15 cents per hour in 1907, but there is no showing for 1913. Can you explain that? Mr. Carter: In Bulletin 143 they omitted that classifica- tion of sheet metal workers, and I left it blank. You will notice, however, that when sheet metal workers work inside they get 20 cents an hour less than when they work out in the rain or cold? Mr. Phillips: That is, the outside workers get more than the inside workers? Mr. Carter : Apparently 20 cents an hour less. Let us see if that is so. Yes, 45 cents is the rate per hour for the inside workers, and 65 cents is the rate for the outside worker. Mr. Phillips: Now, in the marble and stone trades, the granite cutters, stone cutters and so forth, follo^\^ng in the same table, their rates are given there for the purpose of comparison, are they ? Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Phillips : On the next page, page 60, begin the metal trades, showing rates per hour for blacksmiths in manufactur- ing shops, 40 cents an hour, outside men 68.75 ; in railroad shops 40 cents an hour. I believe you said a moment ago that the employes engaged in these various trades receive time and one- half, and sometimes double time, for overtime. Mr. Carter : That will be shown later in a table here. Mr. Phillips: That applies to railroad workers, as well as other workers engaged in these callings? Mr. Carter : I think so, in some instances. Mr. Phillips : The printing trades, which follow in detail, showing varying rates from 40 to 50 cents per hour, and as high as 56 cents or 57 cents, or even- higher in some instances, do they not? I see 62 cents here. Sixty-two cents per hour for newspaper com- Mr. Carter: Mr. Phillips positors. Mr. Carter: Mr. Phillips English compositors. And on the next page for night work Eng- lish compositors receive 67 cents per hour. Is that correct? Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Phillips: Five cents an hour more. 503 Mr. Carter : Five cents an hour more for working at night than for working in the day time, on the same work. Mr. Phillips: I understood you to say that these classi- fications of employes were all taken from the United States Bureau of Labor Statistics Reports? Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Phillips : And that while as great a number of trades would not be shown in all cities, you reported every trade shown? Mr. Carter: The only trades omitted were those shown in Bulletin 143 that were not shown in Bulletin 131. Usually they are not complete trades, but divisions of trades. For instance, it may be shown that in the bakery trades there was a Bohemian Union, or a Hebrew Union, or something of that kind, shown in Bulletin 143, that was not shown in Bul- letin 131 ; and in order to avoid useless explanations, I just did not put it in at all; but wherever there is a possibility of iden- tifying all the trades shown in Bulletin 131, mth all the trades shown in Bulletin 143, 1 have included them. Mr. Phillips : And where a comparatively small number of trades are shown in any city, it is because they were not reported from that city. Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Phillips : Is there much variation in the rates as shown in the different cities? Have you made any comparison to determine that? Mr. Carter : I have not, but the table will show for itself. For instance, bricklayers in Chicago got 75 cents an hour in 1913. In Dallas, Texas, they got 87^2 cents an hour. In Denver they got 75 cents an hour. In Kansas City they got 75 cents an hour. In Little Rock they got 75 cents an hour. In Los Angeles they got 75 cents an hour. In Minneapolis they got 65 cents an hour. In Milwaukee they got 67 y^ cents an hour. In Memphis they got 75 cents an hour. In New Orleans they got 62i/o cents an hour. In Omaha they got 70 cents an hour. In Portland they got 75 cents an hour. 504 In Seattle they ^ot 75 cents an hour. In Salt Lake they got 75 cents an hour. In San Francisco they got 871/2 cents an hour. In St. Louis they got 70 cents an hour. That is about the variation. Mr. Pliillips: And witli tliese slight variations, there is a general similarity in the rates paid in the different cities, al- though they may vary slightly? Mr. Carter: I think you will find that there is a similarity, while I must confess I have not made any special research to ascertain what that similarity is. Mr. Philli])s: Still there is a similarity? Mr. Carter: That is the first time I checked the cities, but you will notice how similar the bricklayers' rates were. Mr. Phillips: Now, turning back to page 59, I want to ask another (juestion with regard to tliese percentages of increase. You show the increase, 1913 over 1907, in the various trades, of the employes in the various industries. Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Phillips: That increase includes the aggregate increase for the six-year period? Mr. Carter: It includes identically the same period as was covered in table 7, for engineers and firemen, as was explained, 1913 over 1907. I don't mean that. It includes one vear less, because this table only shows 1913 over 1907, while the same columns, for engineers and firemen, in table 7, would be 1914 over 1907. It shows the aggregate percentage of increase, in- cluding all the increases between 1907 and 1913. I think the tables show that these increases, in many instances, have pro- gressed slightly every year, almost every year; but I have only shown three rates here, the rates for the years stated. Mr. Phillips: Well, your last column, 1913 over 1910, sets forth the percentage of increase since 1910 up to the point in 1913 covered by your table? Mr. Carter: Yes. Where the noughts appear in table 7, that indicates there has been no increase. In 1914 over 1907, in this table, you will note no noughts. I think you will find in every instance there have been considerable increases between 1910 and 1913. Mr. Phillips: And the per cent of increase for the six-year 505 period covered would show in the next to the last .coliiinn the aggregate percentage of increase for that period and the i)er cent eifective since 1910 would a|)pear in the last column? Mr. Carter: Only the percentages of the increases, up to and including 1913, are shown in the last column. I mean to say, by that, I am quite sure there have been many increases in the rates of wages of many of these employes, in many other leading industries since 1913, and therefore the last column only includes up to 1913, Mr. Phillips: Perhaps you did not ([uite understand my question, Mr. Carter. I asked, if the next to the last column would include the aggregate of all increases for the period covered, percentage of increase, and the last column would show the increases, effective subsequent to 1910, up to the point covered bj'' these tables? Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Phillips: Some time in 1913, I understood you to say? Mr. Carter: Yes. I understood you to ask the question if this was the percentage of all increases since 1910. Mr. Phillips: I meant for the period covered by your tables, of course. Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Phillips: It would appear then, in these various trades, taking the very first one, for example, the Bohemian Union, 1913 over 1907, 18.76 per cent. Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Phillips: And 5.58 per cent of that is in etfect, 1913 over 1910. Mr. Carter: Yes; but vou will understand that the 18.76 includes the 5.58. Mr. Phillips : I believe you explained that before, Mr. Car- ter, so it was clearly understood. Now, as you go on down the line, taking the German Union, machine, under the same group- ing there, an aggregate increase of 32.37 per cent has been granted within the six-year period, and 25,02 per cent of that has become eifective between 1910 and 1913, is that correct? Mr. Carter: Yes, sir. Mr. Phillips: You are not prepared to say whether any additional increases have been granted since that time? Mr. Carter: I don't know. 506 Mr. Phillips: Now, take the night work, the German Union, the same thing, you show there an increase of 37.50 per cent for 1913 over 1907, and 33.73 per cent hav become effective since 1910, is that right? Mr. Carter : Yes, there has been a great increase in night work over day work in many of the trades. I think they are making more distinctions in regard to that for printers and bakers, and those who work at night. Mr. Phillips: The Hebrew Union, bakers, second liands, that shows an increase of 43.80 per cent, 1913 over 1907? I understand that includes all increases. Mr. Carter : All increases. Mr. Phillips: And, in the next column, the figures are exactly the same, 43.80. Mr. Carter : The entire increase was granted between 1910 and 1913. Mr. Phillips: Between 1910 and 1913, the period covered by your table ? Mr. Carter: Yes. If you will refer back to your three columns, you will note the rate was the same in 1907 and 1910, and that the increased rate was made for 1913. Mr. Phillips: And the same applies throughout the table, does it not? Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Phillips : Is there any place in there where a decrease in pay is shown ? Mr. Carter : I think in one or two instances. For instance, on page 61, you will note that for stereotjT)ers, which is the last line and refers to footnote 4, there is shown a decrease of 3.12 per cent 1913 under 1910. The Bureau of Labor Statistics has ex- plained that the hours were increased in 1913, with earnings the same per day as in 1912. The rate was the same, but they worked a little longer. Mr. Phillips : Are there other exceptions where decreases appear? Mr. Carter : Yes, sir, in two or three instances. T^ery few, however ; they indicate an error corrected rather than a change in the rate. In some instances — very few, however — two or three — ^you will find that it is explained or at least intimated that the rate quoted in Bulletin 131, reported for 1907 or 1910. 507 or whatever it may be, was in error, and, in order to correct the error, they show a decrease. In carrying out the plan of com- piling this table, we have shown a decrease, although it is an error in showing such decrease. Mr. Phillips: Although a few exceptional cases of that character may appear, in the main, there have been material increases in these various branches of industry, according to the Bureau of Labor table? Mr. Carter: In practically all instances there have been marked increases. In very, very few. Without counting, I will say three or four instances, the decrease is shown and usually it is explained, which would indicate an error rather than a decrease. Mr. Phillips: A .considerable portion of this increase has become effective since 1910? Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Phillips: Now, will you turn to page 93. You have Table 9 there, ''Hours of Labor and Overtime Rates in Fourteen Western Cities, In Effect May 15th, 1912." Would you please explain this table and its intent. Mr. Carter : This table was prepared under the supervision of the Commissioner of Labor, from wage agreements on file in the United States Bureau of Labor Statistics. The table evidently was prepared some time ago, and it only brings up the information to May 15, 1912, approximately two years and a half ago. I had no information of a similar nature of a later date, therefore I used this. Mr. Phillips: According to the caption, Mr. Carter, you used the fourteen cities. Why did you not use the same number as appear in your previous tables? Mr. Carter: I did not find them in the table prepared by the Bureau of Labor Statistics. Mr. Phillips: Are these fourteen cities a part of the sixteen included in your former tables? Mr. Carter: Yes, sir. Mr. Phillips: Two cities have been omitted and you have included fourteen of the sixteen? Mr. Carter: You will understand, in all these bulletins issued by the Bureau of Labor Statistics, they include both eastern and western cities and also southern cities. In Table 8, 508 which we liavc just exi)lainod, I took only the cities from Bulle- tins 131 and 143, which were located in the same district in which this wa^e movement is bein^" conducted. Now, I did not include any cities in the Southeast oi- East, because there was iM) occasion to do so. Now, the same applies to Table 9. In this table, prepared by the Bureau of Labor Statistics, they show the same information for New York, Philadelphia, and other cities; but I only re])roduced information for those cities wdiich are covered in the present arbitration. Mr. Phillips: Then you understand that for the cities in- cluded, are the same classes of employes in the same cities that are covered by your previous tables? Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Phillips: Have your investigations shown that the hours of service for employes in industries other than the loco- motive service, are shorter or more favorable than tlie hours for engineers and tiremen ? Mr. Carter: I think you will find that in all wages reported in the bulletins issued by the Bureau of Labor Statistics, an eight-hour day is in effect, with possibly some exceptions — the eight-hour day is usually in effect. Mr. Phillips: I note you show here, with regard to the bricklayers, the first appearing in this table, that they work from 8 A. M. to 5 P. M., Monday to Friday, 8 A. M. to 12 noon on Saturday, 44 hours during the week. What would be their rate of overtime if required to work outside of these hours dur- ing the week ? Mr. Carter: From Monday to Friday, if they were required to work over eight hours, or on Saturday, if required to work over four hours, they would receive one and one-half times the rate; that is, the rate would be increased fifty per cent. On Saturday, if the time began before 8 A. M. and if they worked any time on Sundays or holidays, they would receive double wages. Mr. Phillips : What would they receive after noon, if they worked on Saturdays? Mr. Carter: The table is not quite clear on that. It says Monday to Friday, one and one-half time. There is a footnote there, number 1, which says, **No work shall be done between 5 and 7 P. M. and 6 and 8 A. M., except in cases of actual ne- 509 cessity." Their rule would preclude their working- those hours, under any circumstances, except in cases of necessity. Then the overtime rate would apply. Mr. Phillips: In the colmnn headed "Saturday," second line! Mr. Carter: Double time after noon. Mr. Phillips: Would that indicate that double time would be paid? Mr. Carter : Yes. I did not read that second line. Mr. Phillips : Also for Sundays and holidays 1 Mr. Carter: Double time for Sundays and holidays. Mr. Phillips : Does the same apply to carpenters '! Mr. Carter: No, the carpenters get double time all the time after eight hours — four hours on Saturday. Mr. Phillips : After four hours on Saturday, double time, if required to work more than four hours f Mr. Carter: Yes, sir. Mr. Phillips: You stated, Mr. Carter, in explaining this table at the beginning, that you had made use of such informa- tion as was available, having only these tables w^hich were com- pleted down to May 15, 1912. Have you any reason to believe that the conditions of service of these employes are less favor- able now than they were at that time? Mr. Carter: Why, much more favorable, and I had a special report on that matter which I thought I had included in the table, but I don 't see it now ; but I had a reply to an in- quiry that I made of the Bureau of Labor Statistics, and it indicates that many more trades have gone on the eight-hour basis and time and a half for overtime than sliow^n in the list prepared for May 15, 1912; but on account of the lack of time to complete all these investigations, I could not wait to get a revised statement ; I had to take what I had. Mr. Phillips : In that footnote 4 here, Mr. Carter — Mr. Carter : What page 1 Mr. Phillips: Page 93 — you say: ''Forty-nine and a half hours during June, July, August and September." What is meant by that, can you tell us — it refers to carpenters, millmen ? Mr. Carter: Yes. Under the caption ''Hours of Labor per Week" it shows 54 hours. The footnote says "Forty-nine and a half hours during June, July, August and September." 510 Mr. Phillips: It is shown, I believe, if you read across the page, they have a nine-hour day, which would be 54 hours a week, but work only forty-nine and one-half hours during the hot months. Is that what you understand from that? Mr. Carter : That is a conclusion one could reach. Under- stand, that this table is given for what it is worth. Mr. Phillips : This double time for holidays and Sundays — do you know what holidays are included? Mr. Carter: No. I think you will find in the footnotes that they sometimes refer to that. These footnotes are repro- duced from the table, as printed. I should surmise it means all holidays that are generally kept, by everybody except rail- road men. Mr. Phillips : Here is a footnote here, number 6, which reads : ' ' No work to be done on Labor Day under any pretense except by consent of Presidents of Manufacturers' Association and Carpenters' Distriot Council." I should think that would be one holiday that they would all observe, would it not? Mr. Carter: I should presume so. That is, if they could make the rule stick. Mr. Phillips: Footnote 10 also says *'No work to be done on Labor Day, except in case of necessity, the contractor to be the judge of necessity." Mr. Carter : Well, there the contractor is the judge. Mr. Phillips : Do engineers and firemen get any extra paj" for any holidays allowed them ? Mr. Carter : Not that I know of. Mr. Phillips: Do they get any extra pay for working on Sundays or holidays? Mr. Carter: I have never noticed a schedule making any special provision for an extra rate. Mr. Phillips : Are the conditions, reported for the various cities referred to here, similar to those reported for Chicago? Mr. Carter : Similar, yes. You will understand, that table was placed in there and if I had more time I might have drawn some comparisons very favorable to our side ; but I am not going to do it, because anyone who has the book can draw his own com- parisons. This was all done in less time than should have been used. Mr. Phillips : Have you made any estimate of the average 511 earnings of the employes covered by the tables in this exhibit? Mr. Carter : On page 8, table 1, there is shown the average rate paid to all employes, in other industries in the sixteen cities. This average was secured by the simple process of adding all the rates on an adding machine and dividing the sum by the number of rates. Mr. Phillips: Do you include therein the rates for en- gineers and firemen? Mr. Carter: Yes, in the same manner. All the rates for engineers are added, regardless of the size of the engine, a big engine, a little engine, a middle-sized engine — all the rates are added together, and, then, after you have your ribbon off your' adding machine, you count the rates and divide the sum by the number of rates, and that is the average. On page 9 you will see the same character of table for the year 1910. The table on page 8 are the rates for 1907, and on page 10 you will find the average for 1913. The same list of employes, except it shows the average rates for the three different periods. Mr. Phillips : You give here the names of the cities in the footnote, do you not, Mr. Carter — the cities included? Mr. Carter: Yes, the cities included in the averages are shown. Mr. Phillips: They are the same cities included in Table 7? Mr. Carter: No, in Table 8. Mr. Phillips: Tables 7 and 8? Mr. Carter: No. Table 7 includes a myriad of cities, towns and villages. Mr. Phillips: Table 7 applies to engineers and firemen? Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Phillips: Table 8 includes cities within the territory through which these railroads operate? Mr. Carter : Yes, sir. Mr. Phillips : And those are the names of the cities there? Mr. Carter : These are the names of the cities included in bulletins 131 and 143 in this territory. Mr. Phillips : You have not here included St. Paul, I note, and you have explained why that city is not included in the table? Mr. Carter : When this entire book was sent to the print- ers, we had St. Paul in there; we had seventeen cities in the 512 lioadiiii^' and had vSt. Paul in the footnotes; then tlic (juestion t-amo up of wliy should I include St. Paul and have someone get nj) and question the accuracy of the table, so I left out St. Paul. j\Ir. Piiillips: Vou explained, I believe, that you put the hourlv rates on an adding machine and then divided the total by the number of rates added? Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Phillii)s: The same method was used for engineers and firemen as for the other employes, I understood you to say? Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr, Phillips: You did not, then, Mr. Carter, take the rate paid on the largest locomotive, the highest rate paid to engi- neers, and then the rate paid on the smallest locomotive, and add those and reach an average of that character ? Mr. Carter: Under the present methods of wage making, it would be practically impossible to do anything of the kind. I will say however, that if the wages in this territory were based on weights on drivers, grouped like our proposition, it would be a simple matter. Mr. Phillips : But, here you have found a general average or an arbitrary average, I believe you termed it, did you not?. Mr. Carter : Well, it is a general average. It is arbitrary in not showing the average rates of engineers on different classes of locomotives. It shows the average rates of engineers and firemen on all the rates reported. Mr. Phillips : Did you find it more difficult to find the aver- age hourly rate of engineers and firemen than you did for em- ployes in other lines of labor? Mr. Carter : I just had to add more rates, was all. There were numerous rates shown. You will note, that so far as ap- plies to bricklavers, which heads the list here. I have onlv to add fourteen rates, while for engineers and firemen I had to add all the rates, shown for every road, on every locomotive, for engineers, and the same for firemen. Mr. Phillips : You said you added for brick layers fourteen rates I Mr. Carter: Fourteen, ves. Mr. Phillips: Did you mean to say sixteen rates? 513 Mr, Carter: 1 meant to say sixteen rates, yes. Under- stand, however, the fourteen applies to Table 10. Mr. Phillips: Table 9, isn't it! Mr. Carter : Yes, Table 9. Mr. Phillips: Showing the rates and hours for overtime? Mr. Carter: Yes. In order to place that right on the rec- ord, Table 9 showing the day's work, and the rates for over- time, includes fourteen western cities. Table 8, showing the rates for emi)loyes in other industries includes sixteen cities. Table 7, for engineers and firemen, includes, we may say, every railroad terminal in the district involved in this arbitra- tion. Mr. Phillips: The entire territory covered by the rail- roads? Mr. Carter : Yes, sir. Mr. Phillips: After having reached this average hourly rate, Mr. Carter, how do you find your engineers compare with workers in other industries? Mr. Carter: Of the forty-six averages shown, or rather, of the averages show^n for forty-six trades, and that includes firemen twice, once for oil burning engines and once for coal burning engines, — of these forty-six different classes of labor, the locomotive engineers in freight service fall down to the four- teenth position in the list. That is, thirteen other trades are getting higher average rates than the locomotive engineers are, in the same territory. Mr. Phillips: And, for firemen how is it? Mr. Carter: In 1907, firemen on coal-burning engines fell to thirty-seventh in the list of forty-six, and on oil-burning en- gines fell from thirty-eighth in the list of forty-six. That was in 1907. Mr. Phillips: How did they stand in 1910? Mr. Carter: They ranked in the same manner. That is, locomotive engineers in freight service, were number 14 in the list of forty-six; locomotive firemen on coal-burning engines, freight service, were number 37; locomotive firemen on oil- burning engines, freight service, were 38. That was for 1910. Mr. Phillips: Now, take 1913, where do they stand in 1913? Mr. Carter: In 1913 tlie engineers and firemen lost two 514 numbers. That is, the engineers' rate instead of being number 14, as in 1907 and 1910, now appears as number 16. It shows that they are falling in average rates compared with other employes. The locomotive firemen, coal-burning engines, fell from 37 to 38; and on oil-burning engines, from 38 to 39. Mr, Phillips: What classes of laborers rank ahead of loc(i- motive engineers, Mr. Carter? Mr. Carter: Take the present time, last year, for instance? Mr. Phillips: Yes; that will exemplify it, I believe. Mr. Carter: Bricklayers, plasterers, steamfitters, plumbers, gasfitters, marble setters, structural iron workers, cement work- ers, granite cutters, compositors, stone cutters, inside wiremen, carpenters, linotype operators, book and job offices. The Chairman: Mr. Phillips, will you kindly suspend. The Board will take a recess until 2:30. (Whereupon, at 12:30 o'clock P. M., a recess was taken until 2:30 o'clock P.M.) After Recess. W. S. CARTER was recalled for further examination, and, having been previously sworn, testified as follows: Mr. Phillips: Mr. Carter, I believe just before adjourn- ment we were on page 10, discussing Table 3, or possibly we were on page 8 or 9,. discussing Table 2; but these tables are very similar, except that they are for different years. I believe I had asked a question as to the relative position occupied by locomotive freight engineers in comparison with employes in other lines of industry, and j'ou had answered that they stood sixteenth, and had named the different classes of employes who rank ahead of them in hourly rates. Do you so recall it? Mr. Carter: Average hourly rates. The Chairman: The witness had just enumerated certain cities in comparison with others, at the .close of the morning session. Mr. Phillips: Is that correct? The Chairman: Yes. Mr. Carter: Certain cities for certain trades. Mr. Phillips: Now, in Table 3 on page 10, how many 515 different classes of employes rank ahead of locomotive firemen in average hourly rates? Mr. Carter: Thirty-seven out of a possible forty-six. Mr. Phillips: A large number of them. I believe I asked you how many ranked ahead of locomotive engineers. Now, what trades rank behind them — not the number, but the classes of service that rank behind locomotive firemen? Mr. Carter: Steamfitters' helpers, bakers — third hands, laborers, blacksmiths' helpers, boiler makers' helpers, press feeders (book and job), and inside wiremen's helpers. Mr. Phillips: Cement workers' laborers, bakers — second hands, and numerous other branches of service which are gener- ally considered unskilled labor, rank ahead of locomotive fire- men, do they not ? Mr. Carter: Yes. The hod carrier in all these cities shows an average rate of wages per hour of 40.27, while the locomotive fireman on coal-burning engines and freight service, averages 33.85 cents per hour. Mr. Phillips: I believe you pointed out that as between 1907 and 1913, or perhaps between 1910 and 1913, some addi- tional branches of service had some increases which put them ahead of both locomotive engineers and locomotive firemen in freight service, when their wages were considered on an average hourly basis? Mr. Carter: Yes, I think it was the carpenters and the linotype operators in book and 30b offices, who passed the engi- neers between 1907 and 1913. Bakers — third hands, who I un- derstand are helpers, passed the firemen between 1910 and 1913. Mr. Phillips : Now, will you please turn to page 14, table 5 ? Will you explain the meaning and intent of this fable? Mr. Carter : It simply shoAvs the methods adopted to reach th« average wages. Table 5 and Table 6, appearing on pages 14 to 17 inclusive, are identical except as to arrangement. Table 5 was arranged in order of amount of increase in rates of wages, 1913 over 1907. Table 6 is arranged in order of amount of increase of rates of wages, 1913 over 1910. Understand, this is not arranged according to the average rates of wages, but the percentage of increase in wages. Mr. Phillips: Then in the next to the last column, the 516 31.85 per cent of increase in 1913 over 11)07 would sliow that the bakers — tliird hands — received the highest per cent of in- crease within tliat period. Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Pliillii)s: Tlie highest aggregate per cent of increase! Mr. Carter: Yes; cement workers' helpers next, boiler makers' lidpers next, bakers — second hands — next, and press feeders, book and job, next. I take the first five. I think you will find, that those who were the low^est paid in 1907 seem to have received the greatest increases since that time. There is a tendency to raise them. Mr. Phillips: You say Table 6, on page 16, is similar, but arranged on a different basis '! Mr. Carter: The only difference is the names are arranged in order of the amounts of increase of the rates of wages, 1913 over 1910 — that is, the percentages of increase. Mr. Phillips: In other words, the next to the last column governs the relative position of the different classes of service in Table 5, and the last column governs their relative position in Table 6, is that correct? Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Phillips: Wliere do locomotive engineers and firemen appear in Table 6, page 14 f Mr. Carter: Locomotive engineers appear as number 39, in a list of 45. That is for the entire period, 1913 over 1907. Mr. Phillips : And firemen ? Mr. Carter: Locomotive firemen, on coal burning engines, appear as number 36 in a list of 46. Jjocomotive firemen on oil burning engines appear as number 44 in a list of 45 ; only one lot of people worse off than the firemen on oil burning engines, and they are the stone cutters. Mr. Phillips : How do the rates appearing here of stone cutters compare with the locomotive firemen! Mr. Carter: In 1914? Mr. Phillips: For the different years for which the com- parisons are made. Mr. Carter : In 1907, on page 8, Table 1, they were receiv- ing 59.79 cents an hour, while locomotive firemen were receiving 29.26 cents an hour. The stone cutters w^ere advanced from 517 59.79 cents in 1907 to (31.04 cents in 1913. They had a very slight increase. Mr. Phillips: How were the firemen's wages for tliat par ticiilar year, freight fii'emen? Mr. Carter: What year? Mr. Phillips : 1913. You gave 1907, 1 believe, as L>9 cents and something. Mr. Carter : In the arrangement of these trades, in accord- ance with the volume of percentage increase in wages, tliat places the locomotive engineers at the foot of tiie list with an increase of .06 of one per cent. Mr. Phillips : You are speaking now from Table (i :' Mr. Carter: Table 6. Mr. Phillips: On page 16? Mr. Carter : Yes. You understand, these tables all extend from page 16 to page 17. Mr. Phillips: The engineers and firemen didn't get on the first page, did they? Mr. Carter : No. The lowest in the list of 45 are the loco- motive engineers, who received, 1913 over 1910, a percentage of increase equalling — that is, the average percentage of increase equalling .06 of one per cent. If they had received 100 times as much as they did receive, they would have had a six per cent increase. The next is locomotive firemen on coal bui-ning en- gines; they received the exact same amount of i)ercentage of average increase, .06 of one per cent. Locomotive firemen on all oil burning engines received .09 of one per cent. You under- stand that is the average of all the rates. Everyl)ody else received from 1.11 per cent up to 9.21 per cent in three vears, 1910 to 1913. * ■ Mr. Phillips: Some of the higher paid trades — I see the stone cutters at the bottom again — received a smaller increase? Mr. Carter : I think you will find that those receiving the highest rates of wages in 1910 usually received a small increase since 1910. You will find the stone cutters, bricklayers, black- smiths, and such as that, are low. In fact, you will find tlie hod carriers have received only 2.47 per cent increase, since 1910. up to 1913. They rank quite high, however, on the list. Mr. Phillips: They were ahead of the firemen, tlic freight firemen? 518 Mr. Carter: Verj' much so. Mr. l*hilli])s: Were stoue cutters, l)laeksmiths and these others aliead of engineers? Mr. Carter: Very much so. Mr. Pliillii)s: Kven though they were far ahead of engi- neers in 1910 in the hourly rate, still since 1910 they have re- ceived more in the increases? Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Pliillips: And their rates are considerably ahead of the engineers still? Mr. Carter: Yes. I think by referring to table 6, pages 16 and 17, you will note that, ordinarily, those receiving the highest percentage of increase are those that appear well down on the table number 3 on page 10. Cement Avorkers' helpers show a percentage of increase, 1913 over 1910, of 19.21 per cent in the three years. Mr. Pliillips: You will find cement workers' helpers on page 8, Table 1, Mr. Carter. I find you have here listed cement workers ' laborers. Mr. Carter : That is a change in the name between Bulletin 131 and Bulletin 143. Mr. Phillips : You understand it to be the same employes ? Mr. Carter: I understand it to be the same. Mr. Phillips : Their rate at that time was 34.82 cents per hour. Mr. Carter: Yes. You mean as to Table 1. The cement workers' helpers there appear as 36.28. I thought that was what you were talking about. Mr. Phillips: No, I caught the cement workers' laborers. Now, in the next table they appear as 38.53, that is the cement workers' helpers, page 9. Mr. Carter: That is right. Mr. Phillips: Now, between 1910, when their rate w^as 38.53, up to 1913, when their rate appears at 43.89 cents per hour, that shows that increase of 19.21 per cent there, does it, the highest increase within the period as shown in table 6? Mr. Carter : I think you are mistaken in quoting the rate. The rate is 29.72 cents per hour. Mr. Phillips : No, turn to page 10, Mr. Carter. Mr. Carter: All right. 519 Mr. Phillips : In the first line of the sixth group, cement workers' helpers. Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Phillips : 43. S9 cents per hour. Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Phillips : Now, in 1910— Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Phillips : In the next to the last line of the sixth group you have 38.53 cents per hour. Mr. Carter: What page are you quoting from? Mr. Phillips : Page 9, Table 2. Mr. Carter : Yes, 38.53. Mr. Phillips: The difference between 38.53 and 43.89, as appearing in the next table, is indicated by this 19.21 per cent of increase during that period? Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Phillips : Those rates are considerably more than the rates paid to locomotive firemen, are they not, by the hour; average hourly rates for freight firemen? Mr. Carter : Look on page 10, Table 3, and you will see it is. They are just two numbers above. Locomotive firemen on oil burning engines show an average of 32.86; the next one above, locomotive firemen, coal burning engines, freight service, 33.85. Next, bakers-second hands, 34.96. Now, comes cement workers' helpers — Mr. Phillips: No, isn't that laborers? Mr. Carter: Laborers. Mr. Phillips: The helpers go much higher. Mr. Carter: Yes, the helpers go much higher. Where are those? Mr. Stone: Two sections above that. Mr. Carter: Two sections above that. That would be 10. Mr. Phillips: The one point I wanted j^ou to explain, Mr. Carter, if you could, is how these apparently high percentages of increases appear for these men? I believe you explained tliat generally they applied to the lower paid workers. Mr. Carter: Yes, I noticed it while looking at this table. Mr. Phillips: You would .consider a cement worker, a ce- ment laborer or a cement helper among the low paid workers? 520 Mr. Carter: Ai)i>areiitly not, if you will go back to page 10, he would be about the medium; run about the middle of the page. Mr. Phillips: Have you comjuled any averages for yard- men, engineers and firemen? Mr. Carter: No. Mr. Phillips: Have you comjiiled any tables showing their rates of wages? Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Phillips: Where will they be found, please? Mr. Carter : Table 10, beginning on page 105, shows ' ' Rates of Wages Per Hour and Earnings for Continuous Service of Engineers in Switching Service on Western Railroads." By referring to page 113, you will find Table 11, which is "Rates of Wages Per Hour and Earnings for Continuous Service of Firemen in Switching Service on Western Railroads. ' ' I will say that all that appears after page 104, which is made up of Tables 10, 11 and 12, was prepared after the other matter was in type and had been sent to the printers. It seemed that we might have time to get up a little more information and having about completed our work for the printers, we de- voted our time that we had left to finding out something about switching engineers and switching firemen and hostlers. Mr. Phillips: How many roads have you included in this tabulation, Mr. Carter; all of the principal lines in the move- ment? Mr. Carter: Yes. I have not counted them. They are there; you can see them. They" extend from page 105, over to and including page 112. .About eight pages. Mr. Phillips: Does there appear to be any uniformity in the rates paid for yard service in different parts of the western territory? Mr. Carter: Yes, there is a close approach to uniformity or standardization, as you like to call it. Mr. Phillips: Is a higher rate paid to engineers, when large engines, or road engines, are used in yard service? Mr. Carter: A comparatively few roads have made special rates for the large engines. Most of the roads only make rates for the engines generally used in yard service. Mr. Phillips: I note, throughout this table, on the first 521 page and on the succeeding pages, that rates for first and second class yards are shown. Do you know why this is? Mr. Carter: During past years, as wage increases have been secured by engineers and firemen, they have been unable to secure the wage increase in all yards, but they have secured increases for the principal yards, and the wage schedules desig- nate them as first and second class yards. In order to give addi- tional information, you will notice that there are reference notes all through Table 10. By referring to pages 121 and 122 you will see wiiere these first and second class yards are. Mr. Phillips: Do you know what constitutes the (lilTprfTico between a first-class vard and a second-class vard? Mr. Carter: No, I do not, unless it is that they use a big, heavy engine in the first-class yards, and have to on account of heavier traffic, or heavier work to do. I think that ordinarily where a railroad has two classes of switch engines, you will find the smaller engine in the second-class yard and the larger engine in the first-class vard. At least, that is where it should be. Mr. Phillips : If the work in the second-class yard became heavy enough to require the use of large first-class engines, would that be any different than in the first-class yards'? Mr. Carter: Yes, under the system employed in tlie past, no difference what the size of the engine, if it is in a second-class yard it takes the lower rate. Mr. Phillips : I understand that the rates are diff'erent, but do you think the work would be any different, if the work got heavy enough in the so-called second-class yard to necessi- tate the employment of a large engine? Would the work done by a large engine in a second-class yard be any different from the work done by the same engine in a first-class yardf Mr. Carter: I cannot see any difference whatever. Mr. Phillips : On page 106 I should like to call your atten- tion to one road, the Chicago, Milwaukee & St. Paul, eastern lines. At the top of the page are given first the rates for first and second-class vards, and then follows a classification bv let- • 7 » ters, presumably the system method of classifying engines. Would you understand from that that these were road engines? Mr. Carter: I think you will find most of them are road engines, but I would not be surprised if you should find some very large switch engines on that road, right here in the city of 522 Chicago. 1 will confess I have not seen them, but my judgment would lead me to believe they are there. ]\lr. Phillips: These various classifications, when used in yard service, regardless of whether they are road engines or yard engines, carry a higher rate of pay for engineers than a]i]iears in the first tabulation, do they not? Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Phillips : And if they are road engines, it would ap- pear that on that road they have a higher rate of pay when road engines are used in yard service? Mr. Carter : It seems so from the rates quoted, Mr. Phillips : On page 108 there is even a more extensive classification for the Great Northern Railroad. Mr. Carter: Without having specific knowledge u])oii the subject, I think that perhaps they quote a yard rate for all their locomotives. Mr. Phillips : And that a road engine used in yard service would pay a higher rate than a yard engine used for switching in the yard? Mr. Carter: The rates as they appear here for engineers in yard service on the Great Northern are as low as 42.5 to as high as 50 cents an hour. Mr. Phillips: You were quoting a first class yard rate, were you not? Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Philli])s : I note that second class yards, at the top of the page, pay as low as 40 cents an hour. Mr. Carter: A second class yard would pay 40 cents, and then on one of the yards below it is 50 cents. Mr. Phillips : You will note there that engines of the last classes, N-1, M-1, M-2, and L-1, pay 55 cents an hour, do they not? Mr. Carter : Yes, but engines of class N-1 and M-1 on the Great Northern are very large Mallet engines. Mr. Phillips: Do they ever use Mallets in yard service? Mr. Carter: I cannot answer that. Mr. Phillips: I do not mean on the Great Northern. I mean any place. Mr. Carter: 1 am infonned from the audience that they are. 523 Mr Phillips: Now, turn to Table 11, beginning on page 113. Is the information given therein for firemen similar to that for engineers f Mr. Carter : Table 11 is a companion table to Table 10, the only difference being that Table 10 gives engineers' rates while liable 11 gives firemen's rates. Mr. Phillips : I believe you explained as to page 121, that the reference notes are to continue on page 122, covering tables 10 and 11, showing the points where the second class yards exist. Mr. Carter : It shows where the rates are paid. Mr. Phillips : Where second class rates are paid, or rates are paid for second class yards. Mr. Carter: For instance, take on page 121, the sixth ref- erence note, Chicago & North Western, the first class yards are Chicago, Milwaukee, Council Bluffs, North Fond du Lac, Belvi- dere, Clinton, Des Moines, Sioux City, South Omaha, Boone, Baraboo, Belle Plaine, Green Bay, Winona, Escanaba (Lower Yard), Deadwood, Janesville, Missouri Valley, Cedar Rapids and Ashland. Now, the statement is made, ' ' Second class yards : All other yards ' '. Now, I don 't know the names of the other yards. They are not shown in the schedule, the names are not shown there. Mr. Phillips : Now, turn to the next page, please, page 123, Table 12. The caption of Table 12 reads : ' ' Eates of Wages Per Hour and Earnings for Continuous Service of Locomotive Hostlers on Western Railroads." Will you please explain this table and its purpose. Mr. Carter: The purpose is very similar to that of the table in regard to switch engines, except there are no first and second class yards. You will notice, however, that some roads have a large number of rates. For instance, the Denver & Rio Grande has five different rates on the Colorado lines and five different rates on the Denver & Rio Grande lines, as shown. I understand that they only have five different rates. Mr. Phillips : You mean the Utah lines f Mr. Carter: The Colorado lines and the Utah lines. You will note opposite the Atchison, Topeka & Santa Fe a leader line showing no rates at all, and there is a footnote to that. By turn- ing to page 125 for references, you will find, note 2, "Atchison, Topeka & Santa Fe (Eastern and Western Lines)— no rate re- 524 ported for liostlcrs. When firemen are required to act as hostlers they are paid firemen's rates, except when assigned for a definite period, in wliich case they shall receive hostlers' wages." Bnl no place in the schedule is it indicated what the hostlers' wages are. That same mil apply to any other road having a leader line following, such as the Baltimore &; Ohio Chicago Terminal, the Chicago ^ Alton, the Chicago & Southern, etc.; but you mil find reference notes to other tables, ten, eleven and twelve, giving much information which should be understood while reading these tables. Mr. Phillips : This reference here, the third reference note on page 125, Mr. Carter, reads: ''Atchison, Topeka & Santa Fe (Coast Lines) — One hour allowed for meals. If hour for eating is not given, hostlers are paid 25 cents in addition to regular pay." Would you understand they were paid that 25 cents extra if they were not allowed a full hour to eat ? Mr. Carter: I would so understand it from reading the schedule. You must understand, I liave not been there nor interviewed these men. Mr. P]iillii)S : All of this information is taken from the schedule ? Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Phillips: I believe you stated that this table, as well as the two preceding tables, was compiled after you had started the other work, or practically completed the other work? Mr. Carter : The other work had practically been com- pleted and was in the hands of the printer. We then learned that the arbitration was postponed from the 9th to the 30th — Mr. Phillips: Of November? Mr. Carter : From the 9tli to the 30tli of November, and we utilized those eighteen days in doing what we could, and among the things we did do was to get up tables for switch engineers, switch firemen and hostlers, and they are added, as you will note, to the back of the book. There is only one table that was already in type, that we had corrected to include smtch engi- neers, smtch firemen and hostlers. Mr. Phillips: ^Vliat table is that? Mr. Carter: Table 4 on page 12. But I think that is a mistake, for we included there, hostlers for the Chicago, Bur- lington &: Quincy Railroad on table 4, and there is no rate given 525 for hostlers on the Chicago, Biuliiigton & Quincy Railroad in the schedule. I had a representative visit the terminals here to ascertain what the rate was, to get a report on it. You will find the rate on pages 12 and 13, for Table 4. I do not think you have ever handled Table 4 before. Mr. Phillips : No, I am afraid we missed that. We will go back to that now. ''Comparative Rates of Wages per Hour and Earnings for Continuous Service of Locomotive Engineers and Firemen, Employed by the Chicago, Burlington & Quincy Rail- road Company, and Employes in the Building Trades, in the City of Chicago." Before you attempt to explain that, Mr. Carter, you say that the hostlers and assistant hostlers should not be included there because of the fact that they have no rate sho^vn on the Chicago, Burlington & Quincy. Mr. Carter: In order to explain why the Chicago, Burling- ton & Quincy rates for hostlers appear on jjages 12 and 13, Table 4, and do not appear on page 123, Table 12, it is because I am quite sure there is no rate shown in the schedule, the only rates shown in the schedules are shown in Table 12. When tliis table here was prepared, the purpose- was to take men working out of the City of Chicago and compare their wages, per hour, and their earnings for continuous service, with other men working in the same city. For instance, a railroad running into Chicago will pass a vast number of buildings and other industrial plants where men are employed between here and the outskirts of the city, and I wanted to compare their wages in the same immediate locality. The reason I selected the Chicago, Burlington & Quincy Railroad is because they have a very concise and brief schedule. I think they have about five groups of engines, and it only takes a very few lines to show all their rates. I did not select the Cliicago, Burling-ton & Quincy because of any special reason. It was because I thought the Chicago, Burlington & Quincy was typical of one of the principal western railroads operating out of the City of Chicago, it has large terminals here, and I thought, inasmuch as they have only about five or six rates, it would be easier to use that road for comparison's sake. After the table was prepared, however, I found that I had no hostlers ' rate for the Chicago, Burlington & Quincy, and I had a represen- tative go and interview the hostlers, get their names and find out what they were earning. Now, understand, the information 526 that appears in Table 4, concerning hostlers and assistant hostlers, is based niion the information commnnicated to me by my representative whom I sent ont there to make inquiry. Mr. Pliillips: And not taken from the schedule? Mr. Carter: No, sir, they do not have any rate in the schedule for hostlers. Mr. Phillips : What is a hostler, Mr. Carter? Mr. Carter : I suppose the name had its origin in the coach- ing days of old, long before we had railroads, when the driver of a team would drive up to an inn on the wayside, and a hostler would como out and take the team, take care of it, had charge of it until the ])arty was ready to leave, and then the hostler would bring the team out again. I think that is the basis of the word ''hostler" in use todaj^ A hostler is a man who has charge of, and is responsible for the locomotive after the road crew sur- renders the engine and before they take it again. Mr. Phillips : Would that apply to a man employed to take care of switch engines when they were turned in at the end of a day's work? Mr. Carter: Any man who handles an engine, who is re- sponsible for the handling of that engine, has charge of that engine while it is not operated in regular service, is a hostler. Mr. Phillips: And these are the Employes covered hj the rates quoted from the schedules, as they appear in Table 12? Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Phillips : But for the Chicago, Burlington & Quincy, in this comparison made here, the rates of wages for hostlers, per hour or by the day, were secured by direct information from the employes in the service of the Chicago, Burlington & Quincy Railroad? Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Phillips: Have you the information available if any- body desires to make a check on that? Mr. Carter : I have it. I have a report of an employe of the Chicago, Burlington & Quincy Railroad, working right out of his town. I have his report and shall be glad to produce it at any time. Mr. Phillips: Now, what was the particular purpose of Table 4, Mr. Carter? Mr. Carter: The particular purpose of Table 4 was to 527 compare the hours of service per day that employes in all of these different trades here are required to work. You will note that I have selected the buildings trades in the city of Chicago and compared them with locomotive engineers and firemen in freight service, locomotive engineers and firemen in switching service, and hostlers and assistant hostlers on the Chicago, Bur- lington & Quincy Eoad; and, as I explained, the only reason that I had to get that information was, after I liad arranged the table and attempted to insert the hostlers' rate, 1 found there was no hostlers' rate in the Chicago, Burlington & Quincy schedule. Mr. Phillips: What do you find by a comparison of these different classes of employes, on an hourly basis, Mr. Carter? Mr. Carter: All of the building trades in the city of Chi- cago have their hours of labor limited to eight hours. They cannot be required to work longer than eight hours without paying them a higher rate than is received for the regular hours. So far as locomotive engineers and firemen in freight service are concerned, or in switching service, they have no limit except the limit of sixteen hours, fixed by the Federal Hours of Service Law. They may work six hours, eight hours, ten hours, twelve hours, fourteen hours and sixteen hours, legally, and not violate any schedule, nor violate any law. Sometimes, without violating the law, they work tAventy hours, or twenty-four hours, when it can be shown that some accident has happened which does not come within the law, or, rather, an accident has hapyjened that makes it permissible for engineers and firemen to remain on service longer than sixteen hours. Mr. Phillips: When you speak of the law, you refer to the Federal Hours of Service Law? Mr. Carter: The United States Federal Law, Hours of Service Law. Canada hasn't any law upon the subject. They are agitating a fourteen-hour law now, I believe, in Canada. Mr. Phillips: Your reference to the law has no reference to the law of humanity 1 Mr. Carter: That is not considered in railroading. Mr. Phillips: I want to get at just what you mean by this unlimited service of locomotive engineers and also locomotive firemen, as shown further down the line, in different groupings. You say they have no limit under the law. These are freight employes, engineers and firemen. 528 Mr. Carter: Yes, they have a limit of sixteen hours. Mr. Phillips: They are in the freight service or yard service ? Mr. Carter: They have a Ihnit of sixteen hours. Mr. Phillips: Aren't they generally supposed to be work- ing on a ten-hour day? Mr. Carter : I think, by referring to the table, you will find that usually it is a ten hour day, but probably there will be two or three deviations from that in Tables 10 and 11, giving smtch engine wages. T think possibly in the footnotes there may be some deviation; but ten hours is a day's work, ordinarily, and so considered. Mr. Phillips: Where they have a ten hour day, just for comparison with these trades that evidently have an eight hour day, would you understand that the engineer or fireman would just work ten hours and receive pay for ten hours, or, is it possible they may work longer than ten hours and receive no pay, except for the ten hours. Mr. Carter: I think you will find that with two switch engine crews working continuously, except where the schedule provides for thirty minutes, or an hour's relief for eating. Now, I think there are roads, I am quite sure but I won't attempt to say what roads they are, that perhaps have a time for cleaning the fires of the switch engines, putting coal and water on, by hostlers, and if that is the case, I can see where there is a lapse of time between the two crews ' work unless it is that crews are otherwise engaged at the same time that the hostlers are being worked with the engine. Mr. Phillips : You give a number of those here in the first column of this table, the first column under ''Hours per day," — the number of trades evidently working eight hours per day, ])lasterers, plumbers, carpenters, etc. Mr. Carter: And hod carriers. Mr. Phillips : You understand that they work eight hours per day? Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Phillips: Uusually from eight to five, with an hour off for noon, is it not? Mr. Carter: Yes, sir. Mr. Phillips : If they were required to come down at 7 :30 529 and were not relieved until 5 :30 in the evening, would they get pay for more than eight hours? Mr. Carter: ^^^lat is your question — say it again? Mr. Phillips: From 7:30 A. M. to 5:30 P. M., a total of nine hours. Mr. Carter: That would be nine hours. Mr. Phillips: For what would they receive pay? Mr. Carter: Well, I think some roads pay continuous time. Mr. Phillips : I am speaking of these other trades, now. Mr. Carter: They would not receive any pay for the time they are eating their meals, one hour. Mr. Phillips : That is not the point I wished to have made clear, if you can make it clear for us — if a hod carrier or a brick layer, or a carpenter, or any of these other trades you- have enumerated, are worked thirty minutes before the eight hour period begins, getting ready, we will say, and then worked thirty minutes after, putting his tools away, or something of that kind, or cleaning up the debris of the day's work, would he receive any additional compensation for that? Mr. Carter: I am quite sure he would receive tlie rate fixed for overtime. Mr. Phillips: Now, if these engineers and firemen, work- ing ten hours a day, had no specific rule granting pay for pre- paratory time, could the railroads require their engineers and firemen to come do^vn, thirty minutes, or some period of time before their day began, and also to remain on duty after their day ended, without compensating them for it? Mr. Carter: Do you refer to switching service? Mr. Phillips : Either switching service or road service. Mr. Carter : They have not a regular ten hour day in road service. Mr. Phillips : I understood you to say that ten hours con- stitutes a day. Mr. Carter : Only as fixing a basis of pay. When you work ten hours they say you are entitled to this pay, but they do not say you are entitled to quit. Mr. Phillips: Let us confine it to the switching service. Then, if these men engaged in the switching service had to come down thirty minutes before their work began, and then had to 530 remain thirty niiinites after their day was over, would they re- ceive pay for it on all railroads f Mr. Carter: I am quite sure they would not, unless it was specifically provided in the schedule. Mr. IMiillij^s : Let us make a few comparisons. I do not want to drag this out too long. If a plasterer works eight hours on a week day, what will be his earnings? Mr. Carter: Six dollars. Mr. Phillips : Now, take a locomotive engineer in the first group there. Did I understand you to say those were the highest paid engines, the ones coming first? Mr. Carter: Group 6. Mr. Phillips: Suppose an engineer works eight hours on that 64 cents an hour engine, what w^ould he receive? Mr. Carter: He would get $6.40, just the same as if he worked ten hours. Mr. Phillips : If a plasterer worked ten hours on a week day, what would he get? Mr. Carter: He would get $9. Mr, Phillips: And how much would the engineer get for working ten hours? Mr. Carter : He would get the same $6.40. Mr. Phillips: And if the plasterer worked twelve hours on a week day, wiiat would he get? Mr. Carter : He would get $12. Mr. Phillips: "What would the engineer get? Mr. Carter : He w^ould get $7.68. Mr. Phillips: If the plasterer worked fourteen hours? Mr. Carter: If a plasterer, an inside wireman, plumber, gasfitter, or a steamfitter, those four anyhow, would get $15 if they worked continuously fourteen hours. A locomotive engineer on the biggest engine would get $8.96. If a man employed in any one of the four top trades should work sixteen hours on a week day he would get $18, while the engineer on the biggest engine would get $10.24. The engineer on the smallest engine would get $7.63, and a switch engineer would get $6.80, for sixteen hours ' continuous work. Going down to the bottom, you will see that the firemen and 531 switch engine firemen and liostlers are hardly given enough to be in the list at all. Mr. Phillips: You spoke of firemen. A fireman working on a switch engine in Chicago, working sixteen hours, would receive $4, would he not? Mr. Carter: $4. Mr. Pliillii)s: A while ago we compared liiiii witli the liod carrier. Wliat would the hod carrier get if he worked sixteen hours on a week day! Mr. Carter: $9.60. Mr. Phillips : Suppose any of these crafts or trades worked sixteen hours on a Sunday or holiday — I mean those you first mentioned — what would they get? Mr. Carter : They would get $24 for working sixteen hours on a Sunday or holiday. Mr. Phillips : AVould there be any difference in the pay of the engineer 1 Mr. Carter: No. Mr. Phillips: Or the fireman? Mr. Carter: No. Mr. Phillips : Just the same as on a week day, and just the same at night as for day work? Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Phillips: Just the same for overtime as for straight time? Mr. Carter: No difference. Mr. Phillips: That apparently does not ap]ily witli any of the other trades? Mr. Carter: All the other trades get excessive rates, or I mean rates in excess of the regular rates, for overtime. I call your attention to the fact that this table was arranged in the order of the amount of earnings for a ten hour week day. If you will look at the ten hour heading, week days, and note the amount received, you will find that it progresses downwardly, from plasterers to assistant hostlers and switcli engine firemon. For instance, it starts in with plasterers $9, inside wiremen $9, plumbers and gasfitters $9, steamfitters $9, bricklayers $8.25, and then goes on down. Then after sheetmetal workers it strikes the engineer, on the biggest engine on the **Q" road, I supi)ose. Anyhow, it is group 6, the highest rate, and he would ixoi $n.40. 532 And, you see as the groups change, the first four groups bring the wage down to $5.40. Eight between the first four and the last three groups of engineers, as shown there, appear the hod carriers. The hod carrier comes in midway in the group of en- gineers. The hod carrier gets $5.28. Then comes three more groups for locomotive engineers, bringing it down to $4.80. The switch engineer in Chicago gets $4.25 for ten liours' work. Now, we come to locomotive firemen. Commencing with the biggest engine, the locomotive fireman gets $4, in group 6, which I understand includes the Mallets ; then $3.75, then $3.60, then $3.30, then $3.15, then $2.95. Now, we come to the switch engine fireman. He gets $2.50, or 25 cents an hour. The hostler — and this is the C, B. & Q. hostler — gets $2.50 a day. Mr. Stone: $2 a day. Mr. Carter: He works twelve liours and gets $2.50 for it. No, I beg your pardon, he gets $3 for it as you will notice over in the twelve hour column. Now, I think that is an error. Although the schedule don't say so, there is nothing, no contract on the part of the railroads to pay a hostler anything less than a full day's pay, and it is possible that if this hostler on the C, B. & Q. only worked eight hours he would receive eight- tenths of a day. If he does receive $3, it is because the road wants to pay him that, and it is not because of any agreement to that effect that I can find. It may be there is a private agree- ment between that hostler and the company. Now, the assistant hostler out here on the C, B. & Q. gets 21 cents an hour. If he worked ten hours he would get $2.10. I don't know who that assistant hostler is, Init I have alwavs con- sidered that an assistant hostler is a man who actually hostles engines and assists the head hostler. It is possible that he might be a fire knocker, I don't know; but if he is, and does not handle engines, he is not a hostler; he is misnamed. If he handles engines he is a hostler and if he is working under a head hostler he is an assistant hostler. Mr. Phillips : From this table, Mr. Carter, it would appear that all of these different trades you have listed, and which, I understand, are taken from the tables that appear elsewhere 533 in this exhibit, draw time and a half or double time for overtime ; all except engineers, firemen and hostlers? Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Phillips: A while ago, yon made a statement some- thing to the effect that jow wished to get these people working in the building trades or in other industries in the same territory that these yard men worked — Mr. Carter : Right outside of the track or the yard, as these men work in the yards. Right beside the track. Mr.- Phillips : Now, let us take an industry beside the track and the car yard of a railroad company outside the fence. Those employes working there within sight of each other, within calling distance of each other day after day ; do you know of any reason why those yard men should not expect to receive remuneration for their additional service the same as the employes working in the building trades and other industries ? Mr. Carter : If you will divide that question, I will answer it. I know that there is no reason why they should not expect, but there are good reasons why they do not receive it. Mr. Phillips : What are the reasons why they do not receive it? Mr. Carter: We have not been able to get it yet. Mr, Phillips : That might be a debatable question, whether that is a reason or not. If I had asked you if they do receive it and you had answered in the negative, I could understand that they were not getting the money, but I could not take that as a reason why they were not getting it. Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Phillips : Do you believe that men working under such- conditions, in a railroad yard, or on a railroad between stations, should have the same compensation for overtime, comjnited in the same manner that it is computed for these building employes, and the employes in other industries listed in your exhibit? Mr. Carter : I would say that for the same reason that ex- cessively high rates are paid for overtime in tlie other trades they should certainly be paid in yard service to engineers and firemen, and that purpose is to prevent the use of these men longer than a certain number of hours. Our proposition only asks that their day be ten hours, while these other people all have an eight hour day. Without taking 534 into eonsidoration the difference in the number of hours they are re(iuirod to work before overtime be^^ins, I have never been able to understand why yard engineers and firemen should not be worked an eight hour day and paid as liberally as employes in other industries are paid for an eight hour day, and receive excessively high rates of compensation for overtime when they were compelled to work overtime. Mr. Phillips: But still you only ask for a ten hour day, do you notf Mr. Carter: I rather think that the men want an eight hour day, but, as in other matters, they thought if they could standardize on a ten hour day they would do well. Mr. Phillips: I believe, in your proposition, you ask for only time and a half for overtime? Mr. Carter: Time and a half for overtime after ten hours. Mr. Phillips: And practically all of these leading trades and industries listed in your exhibit show^ double time after eight hours? Mr. Carter: Some of them only time and a half. The bricklayers only get time and a half if they work over eight hours, except on Sundays and holidays. Carpenters and a great many other trades, of course, get double time. You, of course, understand these high rates of overtime are punitive in their nature. The men do not want to work over a full day's work, and in order to prevent the possibility of their being compelled to work more than a regular day's work, in- stead of being insubordinate and saying "We won't work," they say "You will pay me time and a half or double time if I do work." Mr. Phillips: Mr, Carter, I want to call your attention to what appears to me to be an error in figuring these rates here. For the hod carriers, under the twelve hour caption, week days, ap])ears a I'ate of 6.72. Now, I note the same rate of 6.72 for hod carriers under fourteen hours; is that correct? Mr. Carter: That is an error. I had not noticed that. That should be increased. They would make more than that if they worked fourteen hours. A hod carrier would not work; fourteen hours for $6.72. Mr. Phillips: Do you know wlietlier hod carriers get double time or time and a half for overtime, without looking it up? 535 Mr. Carter: In Chicago, do j^ou mean? Mr. Phillips: Yes. Mr. Carter: Hod carriers and building laborers have a 44 hour week, from 8 A. M. to 5 P. M., Mondays to Fridaj^s; and 8 A. M. to 12 noon Saturdays, and they get time and a half for overtime, except on Sundays and holidays, when they get double time. Mr. Phillips: This is figuring a week, and if I have figured it right here that should be $8.16. Mr. Carter : That is an error there. That has been checked over and over again; it would remain for you to find it. Mr. Phillips: That $6.72 should be $8.16, should it not? Mr. Carter : If you have computed it, I w^ill say yes. Mr. Phillips : I do not guarantee my figures but I see there is a discrepancy there. Now, Mr. Carter, I wish you would turn back to page 1 just a moment, the first page of this exhibit. Under the subject, "Piece-Work and Seniority," near the bot- tom of the page I note you say: "Eates of wages of Locomotive Engineers and Firemen in road service, being usually fixed upon a 'piece-work basis,' at a certain rate 'per hundred miles,' it follows, that the higher the average speed of a train between terminals the greater the earnings in a given time." WHiat do you mean by that? Mr. Carter : So long as the speed of the train is equal to, or exceeds, ten miles per hour, the wages are fixed on the piece- work system, or so much per hundred miles. Now, if it took ten hours to go a hundred miles, the mileage rate and the daily rate would be the same ; but, as the speed of the train increases, the earnings for the trip, — that is, the earnings for a given time would be increased. For instance, going from A to B, 100 miles in ten hours, they would get 100 miles pay which is equal to ten hours work. But, if they went in eight hours they would get 100 miles pay in the same manner as if they had worked ten hours. It is purely a piece-work system. They make miles, and that is the expression they are using, ''making miles." That is their product, they say. Mr. Phillips: If the roads were operated on a basis so that men could make miles, in other words, turn out piece-work 536 rajndly, w(iul(] tlioy make more than if they operate on an hourly basis! Mr. Carter: As the speed of the train increases so does the earnings per car when the wages are fixed on the mileage basis. I would like to explain that. The wages are fixed per hundred miles of the actual miles made, and as I stated a while ago, if an engine crew was going a hundred miles in eight hours, or, say seven hours, their rate per hour would increase in the same ratio or proportion; but, in making that statement, I do not take into consideration that the crew that required seven hours to make 100 miles, were possibly called two hours before they started to make this 100 miles; or they may have been delayed at the end of the trip, and, it is possible, that, while th^ records of the company would show that they had been on duty only seven hours, the fact of the matter is they might have been on dutv ten hours, if thev were called two hours before the leaving time of the train. It is difficult to determine when a man does go on duty. He may be asleep after eiglit hours rest, at 2 o 'clock in the morning. The caller will waken him, or the telephone may waken him. His train, we will say, leaves two hours later. Now, it takes him a certain time to put his clothes on, get something to eat, and get to the place where he will find his engine. Possibly that is his own time, but that is something that has to be done. Before a man can go out on the road he has got to get something to eat and to put his clothes on. It is difficult therefore to say just how much time after a man is called is really time con- tributed by himself or required by the company; but in cal- culating and estimating the earnings of firemen on the mileage basis, that is, when their speed exceeds ten miles an hour, it is difficult to saj^ how long a man does work for his pay. It may show in passenger service, for instance, that he was only two hours going a hundred miles, or an average of fifty miles an hour, while the engine was in motion between ter- minals. It is possible, however, that he came down two hours before that engine left and was working around his engine; or he may have been taking that engine from a distant round- house down to the point where the train leaves. The des- 537 patcher's sheet would not show that, and any wages based upon that I am afraid Avould be misleading. Mr. Phillips: Then, if the schedules did not specifically provide compensation for this preparatory time, even though that work might be done, no pay would be received for it by engineers and firemen? Mr. Carter: If there was what we have been pleased to term an arbitrary allowance, it would be paid as an arbitrary and not under the mileage. He would get so much for making that hundred miles, and maybe he would be paid for the time he put in before he began to make that one hundred miles and maybe he would not. Mr. Phillips : Under some schedules he would and under some would not? Mr. Carter : That is it. Mr. Phillips: When a hundred miles is made in a com- paratively short time, I understand you to say, that, as piece- workers, engineers and firemen earn money more rapidly than if they were making just ten miles an hour, or say working on an hourly basis? Mr. Carter: Like any other piece-work, if you got so much money for making brick or mining coal; and in mining coal the miners have an eight hour day and yet they are paid on a piece-work system of so much per ton. Two miners may be working in the same pit, both working eight hours, and yet the man who mines the most coal, knocks down the most coal and loads it and sends it out, gets a higher rate than the man in the next breast who knocks down a less number of tons and sends it out in the same eight hours. Mr. Phillips: If this engineer and fireman got the train over the road in less time and, as you say, would earn money more rapidly than on an hourly basis, would they also be earn- ing money more rapidly for the company, in your judgment? Mr. Carter : Oh, I suppose so. They would be performing the same service for the company in say seven hours, that they might next day require ten hours to perform, or fourteen hours to perform. Mr. Phillips : The point is this, Mr. Carter, if you can en- lighten us on it : Would the company receive the same revenue 538 for the train if it got over the road in seven hours as if it moved over the road in fourteen hours ! Mr. Carter: 1 am not a traffic man, but I understand Red Ball Freight brings a higher return than coal trains. Mr. Phillips : You spoke of the preparatory time. I under- stood you to say, that in some cases the engineers and firemen were paid, and in some cases they were not, for the time spent in getting their engine ready to leave and move out! Mr. Carter: I make that statement without being able to call attention to any scheduk'. If that is a material point, I would suggest that if you will turn to Exhibit 1 or 2, you will find exactly, under the name of each road, just what they pay for preparatory time or for terminal time. Mr. Phillips : You don 't know what regulations the Inter- state Commerce Commission have instituted, governing the time on duty, that shall apply to an engineer and fireman, do you? Mr. Carter : I am going to make a statement that I think is true. If I am wrong, I hope to be corrected. The Federal Hours of Service Law requires an engine crew to be off duty, we will say, eight hours. It does not say for rest ; it says off duty. For instance, a train may come into the yard at one o'clock in the morning and the engineer and fireman be relieved from duty at one o'clock. Another train may leave at nine o'clock, we will say, eight hours later. The same crew may be required to leave on that train, and not violate the law, because the law says eight hours off duty. Now, in practice, and in fact, by the time that engineer and fireman wash up, go and get something to eat, go home, get to bed, an hour or more has gone. Then, the caller will prob- ably come around an hour or an hour and a half before nine o 'clock, to get them up to get their clothes on and get something to eat, so when the government says you must give this engi- neer and fireman eight hours off duty, they don't say that you must give them ten minutes rest. If he is off duty on the road he has got to find the rest, if he can. Mr. Phillips: Does the government consider the time off duty, the time between the ending of responsibility and the sub- sequent assumption of responsibility? 539 Mr. Carter : It does not say that. The tinie between being relieved from duty and again required to go on duty. Mr. Phillips : If these men were required to report thirty minutes before leaving time, receive no pay for it, and their time began thirty minutes after being required to report, when, under the government regulations, would their hours on duty begin ? Mr. Carter : I am quite sure that when they are required to report for duty is the time, I do not think it is the leaving time of the train. For instance, suppose an engine crew was called to go out at eight o'clock, and they were there, and the train was de- layed and did not go out until noon. I am quite sure all the time they were lajdng there they would be considered as being on duty under the Hours of Service Law. Mr. Phillips : Suppose a crew was called to depart on a train at 9 A. M., and under the rules of the company they were required to report for duty at 8 :30 A. M., no compensation being provided by the schedule, would you understand that their time on duty began at 8 :30 A. M. ? Mr. Carter : I do not know whether there has been a court decision on that point or not, and not being a judicial mind, I am not able to say, but it seems to me that "relieved from duty'* means relieved from duty, and that ' ' resuming duty ' ' means re- suming dutj'. I will have to confess I do not know, and I can- not answer that question. Most of these matters, you know, have been disputed, and have found their way into the courts, and the courts have decided them. Mr. Phillips: Now, on the next page, page 2, about the middle of the page, or the third paragraph from the top you say: ''When the speed of a train falls below 10 miles per hour on 10-hour railroads, the basis of Engineers' and Firemen's wages changes from 'piece work' to the 'hourly' basis; thus, if it re- quires 16 hours to pull a train 125 miles, the miles run are dis- regarded and the Engineer and firemen are paid for sixteen hours work. The rate per hour for overtime is usually the rate for 10 miles, that is, no excess or 'punitive' rate is payable as in other industries." What was your purpose in making that statement? 540 Mr. Carter: To distinguish between overtime as applied to engineers and firemen, and overtime as applied to employes in other industries. Overtime in nearly every industry except the railroad industry carries with it the suggestion that there is a higher rate for it. Mr. Phillips: And overtime with engineers and firemen simply means that the time has been extended, and that they are going on at the same rate. Is that a correct understanding? Mr. Carter: Yes, shall I read that next paragraph? I think it will throw some light on the subject. Mr. Phillips : If it is explanatory, I shall be glad to have you read it. Mr. Carter: (Reading) ''As in all industries where rates of wages are based upon the 'piece work' system a compara- tively few Locomotive Enginemen earn high wages, and the high wages of these few are accepted by the public as typical of the earnings of all. Because of this misunderstanding of the real earning power of all railroad emploj^es under their 'piece work' system, great injustice has been suifered by its victims. With regard to the high earnings possible under the present system of compensating engineers and firemen, no thought is given by the uninformed to the ambitious, if not selfish struggle of these employes to 'make miles' while the opportunity is presented to add to earnings. Thus, an engineer or fireman may work 20 hours continuously and thereby earn two days' pay in one day, with the knowledge that he may earn nothing the next day. As with days so mth months ; an engineer or fireman may earn in one busy month twice as much as in a dull month. Many fire- men with memories of a few months of high earnings often find themselves with no work at all, no income, and their average earnings for all months not sufficient to keep their family from hunger and want." I will not read any further. Mr. Phillips: Do you attribute this to the piecework system? Mr. Charter: Yes. Mr. Phillips: And seniority? Mr. Carter: I attribute it to the peculiarity of railroad employment. A man may double the road today and he may not go over the road at all tomorrow. In one busy month he 541 may show excessively high earnings. In another dull month he may show no earnings at all. For instance, an engineer may be hired, and almost from the beginning he may show high wages on this piecework system. He may make a large number of miles. He may make a large number of hours, but when that rush of business is over, what they call "cutting the list" takes place, and that man may find himself without a penny's earnings for six mouths. The same would apply to a fireman on the foot of the list. He might go without anything to eat, or without anything to earn it. The result is that when men do have the opportunity to work, they want to do it all. They want to do two men's work and get two men's Avages, and they do. Their purpose is to work every minute and make every mile they can, because they do not know what is going to happen next month. Mr. Nagel: Is that an inevitable incident to the employ- ment? Mr. Carter: I think so. Mr. Nagel: But 3'ou think it grows out of the character of the business, and not out of the management? Mr. Carter: It grows out of the character of the business. Mr. Phillips: The fluctuations from season to season, and the rush periods that occur from time to time on different rail- roads ? Mr, Caiier: There is no class of labor of which I have any knowledge, whose opportunities to earn money are so precarious as those of the locomotive fireman, for many years of his expe- rience. Mr. Phillips: You read the statement here that a compara- tively few locomotive engineers and firemen earn high wages under this piecework system. Are we to understand, then, that there are a great number, or quite a considerable proportion who have an up" and down existence, that they earn a big month and then make no month at all ? Mr. Carter : I think if you will take the average man, from the time he enters the service as a fireman until he has his last experience at being put back on the engineers' extra list, it will show a very checkered career. You will find that for the first three or four years of his 542 service as liremau, on several occasions lie did not earn anything for weeks, or maybe for months. Then he worked himself up to a hii^h-priced job of firing, and he did not hold that very long, for business changed and he was promoted to be an extra engi- neer, and then he starved, or business fell off, and the engineer came back and took his job as fireman, and he hunted a job. Mr. Phillips: Are we to imderstand, that these compara- tively few men to whom j^ou refer here, earn good wages by working long hours, or making quite extensive mileage? Mr. Carter: On high speed trains the earnings in,crease as the speed increases. Therefore, on an excessively high speed train, if they have the physical ability, they may make two or three or four hundred miles in a day. The^^ Avould not do it if they knew that their earnings were fixed, but the average man does not know how long he will hold that run, particularly a fireman or a demoted engineer. A man on a certain passenger run today may be the oldest man on the firemen's seniority list. Tomorrow he may be promoted to the position of engineer. Two months later he may be away back down on the list as a fireman, and have 50 per cent of the men older than he on the firemen's list. It is not an uncommon thing to find every engine on a road fired by an engineer, and every fireman out of work. Mr. Phillii)s : AVhy is it necessary to adopt these rules of seniority? Mr. Carter: It is absolutelj^ necessary, bad as it is, and hard as the struggle is to earn positions where high wages are paid. It is better for them to make this struggle than not to have their senioritj^ rules. Mr. Phillips: Why do you make this statement? Mr. Carter: Before the days of seniority, the man did not know whether he had a job or not. The best jobs were always given to the friends of those who furnished the jobs. I remember a time, when, if a mechanical official resigned, or lost his position on one railroad and went to another railroad, he generally took his friends with him, the engineers partic- ularly, and when he went with that other road, his friends that came with him got the passenger jobs, the best paying jobs. On the same road, a fireman who did not attract the favorable at- tention of those who had authority, very seldom got promoted 543 and very seldom got a choice run, and I have heard it said that there were worse conditions than that. Mr. Phillips : Then, do you understand that these seniority and piecework conditions which you have described, are prefer- able to a condition without seniority ? Mr. Carter: Without seniority I am sure that favorites would have all the high priced jobs, where they make two days in one, Mr. Phillips: Why do you say that? Mr. Carter: That was the history of railroading before seniority was adopted. That was what made the adoption of seniority absolutely essential. Understand, seniority has its bad features for the men. They all recognize the very bad features that I have described, about having a job today and no job to- morrow; but, the fact remains that with seniority, every man who is meritorious, every man who fulfills the requirements of the service, is assured that in his turn he will have a chance at these high-paid runs. You understand, however, that in the weeding-out process or collapsing process, as applied to firemen, only a very few ever reach high joaid runs. Mr. Phillips: The high paid run is a delusion then, is it? Mr. Carter : Oh, no, it is a very real fact. Mr. Phillips: Mr. Carter, not speaking of those days in the past to which you have referred, do you think that at this day there is any railroad where favoritism would be shown, or improper advantage taken of any man if the seniority rule did not prevail? Mr. Carter : With the knowledge that every man I ever saw is absolutely honest, there is hardly an industry today in which the petty officials do not make more money by selling jobs than they make from their salary. Mr. Phillips : T\Tiy do you make that statement? Mr. Carter : I think it was demonstrated in the courts here in Chicago quite recently. I think the Italian section foremen here are purchasing — I do not believe they call them estates — but something in Italy that indicates excessive property holdings, by the money they make off the poor section hands who have to pay to get a job and then pay to keep it, and unless they pay more to keep it than another fellow ^-ill pay next month to get it, why, the force is changed. 544 Mr. Byraiii : What makes you think that? Mr. Carter: Tlirough proceedings in court; I have read a report of the court proceedings. Mr. By ram : That is not ^vhat I mean. Do you think that applies generally to railroads f Mr. Carter: I can only quote Richard J. Knight, who is chief inspector of emplojTnent agencies, and who has been work- ing on this subject in Illinois for some time. (Reading) : "Richard J. Knight, Chief Inspector of Em- plo\nnent agencies, who had been working on the DeJoy case since July, said he believes that 90 per cent of the section bosses employed by railroads in the vicinity of Chicago, enjoyed privi- leges similar to those through which DeJoy, as he admitted in court, enabled him to buy a villa in Italy. Grand Jury action, to stop this form of grafting will probably be taken, Mr. Knight said. *'It was estimated by Inspector Knight that section bosses rake in $100,000 a year by grafting oft' day laborers. The bosses in many of the factories employing foreign help are also believed by the inspector to profit by the same system of charg- ing each employe a fee before permitting him to work. In many instances the factory bosses are said to accept presents of valu- able furniture and silverware instead of cash. " DeJoy 's method was set forth as this: he makes a trip from Shermerville, where he bosses a gang, once a month, and takes away with him about 75 jobless men. These men pay him from $5 to $10 for their jobs. They work for a month and then are discharged to make room for new recruits with 'entrance fees. ' In addition the workers are said to be forced to buy their supplies from a supply car, which charges war prices. ''DeJoy took the stand after thfese facts had been related, and did not deny the charges." He was fined $200. I could read you a great deal on that. I believe if those section men were working under the sen- iority rule, that abuse would not arise, and I want to say that the railroads are not responsible. The railroads themselves are greater losers, perhaps, than the men, by the dishonesty of these bosses. I am not blaming the railroads. I am saying that, with- out regard to the disposition for fairness of the management without seniority ; that is the history of the world. 545 Mr. Park: Do vou believe that all section foremen are grafters? Mr. Carter: I believe there are just as many honest men among section foremen as there are among other people perhaps. Mr. Park: Do you believe any section foreman in Chicago is getting $100,000 a year ? Mr. Carter: I think Mr. Knight said the section foremen collectively. He did not mean one. But, understand, I am only quoting the Inspector of Factories, and not quoting my own opinion, because it was a great surprise to me to learn that that condition existed. The Court believed it did exist, and fined DeJoy $200. Mr. Byram : What did they fine him for ? Mr. Carter: 1 understand, for that. Mr. Byram: For what? Mr. Carter: For hiring boys and paying them men's wages. That is what I understand. I was not in court. I read about it. If I am wrong, I will go and get the court record. I understand he hired boys and paid them men's wages, and then made the boys divide their wages with him. Mr. Byram: Was he an employe of a railroad company? Mr. Carter : I understand so. I only cited that as an illus- tration of why they should have seniority today; and pardon me for saying it, I think the quicker the railroads have seniority in all branches of the service, the quicker they will prevent just such abuses. Mr. Nagel: Is that question of the institution of the seni- ority rule raised by your demand here? Mr. Carter: Seniority is the reason why some of these men get these high-paid jobs. The question was asked '' Then why do we have seniority. ' ' I am explaining it. Mr. Park: Mr. Carter, before the adoption of seniority, do you think that the mechanical officials sold the positions of locomotive engineers and firemen? Mr. Carter: I think not. I think most of the complaint was as I described a while ago. We will say that there was a mechanical official on the Illinois Central Eailroad. He had many friends there, engineers maybe not very high in the serv- ice. They were his good friends. He went to work, we will say, 546 on the Colorado Southern. Of course that road was not in existence at that time, but I will use that for an example. He felt that he wanted his friends with him. When he got there, he wrote back to the engineers that he liked on the Illinois Central and he said: "If you will come out here, I will give you a passenger run," and maybe a man who had been on that passenger run under a former master mechanic for years had to give up the run to the new man he brought with him. That, I think, was the abuse that brought on the adoption of the seniority rule. Mr. Park: Was it not the fact that when the new roads were building in the west, like the Union Pacific and the Santa Fe, that they were stocked with new men who were brought from the east? Mr. Carter: I think all new roads are stocked with men brought from other roads. Mr. Park: Isn't it a fact that seniority has been in effect for twentv-five or thirty years? Mr. Carter: Yes. The second road I went to work on, in 1883, had seniority. Mr. Park: Yes, I hardly remember when it has not been in vogue. I do remember of engineers going from the east into the west with superintendents of machinery and taking posi- tions as engineers, because there were no engineers there. Mr. Carter: I am (|uite sure that seniority is absolutely necessarj', although it apparently results in a few of the favored men earning the big wages. Mr. Park: I think we all agree with you on that. Mr. Byram: Coming back to that question of this man trafficking in these men — Mr. Carter: De Joy — Mr. Byram: Are you sure he was an employe of a railroad or was he an employment agency to secure laborers? Mr. Carter (Eeading) : "Frank DeJoy, Section Foreman of the Chicago, Milwaukee & St. Paul Railroad, who spends the winter months on his estate in Italy, was fined $200 and costs when arraigned in Municipal Judge Joseph E. Ryan's court yesterday on the charge of operating an employment agency without a license." Mr. Byram : That is what I wanted to know. 547 Mr. Phillips: You believe conditions under seniority are preferable to conditions without seniority? Mr. Carter: Most assuredly so. Mr. Phillips: Even under seniority there are many hard- ships and conditions which are hard to reconcile, are there not? Mr. Carter: The very conditions which make it possible, under seniority, for the oldest engineer on the road to earn what may appear to be abnormally high wages, because that man has struggled for twenty or thirty years under adverse conditions, in order to get that high paying run. Mr. Phillips: So, if you take his average earnings for a period of years, within, say, the last two or three or five j^ears, they might appear to be quite high; but the average earnings for the whole period of years would not be so high ? Mr. Carter: Not nearly so high. It is only so long as his seniority entitles him to these high paid runs that his wages are so high. You understand that is not so variable with the engi- neers as with the firemen. Far more variable with the firemen. Mr. Phillips: Mr. Carter, taking up, on page 3, the average rates of wages, which is a subject you have dealt with exten- sively, we reach a table, down near the bottom of the page, exemplifying some average earnings of engineers and firemen. Mr. Carter: Average rates of wages. Mr. Phillips: Yes, average hourly rates of wages. Mr. Carter: Pardon me. I don't know — I don't presume the board will require to have these seven pages of introductory matter read, but it should be understood b}' the board, to have a thorough understanding of the tables that follow. Much is said in these eight introductory pages and, if it is desirable, I will repeat them into the record. The Chairman: The presumption is that the board will read them. Mr. Carter: It is not necessary for me to read them? The Chaiiman: Not at all. Mr. Phillips: It will not be my purpose to burden the record with that nor to inflict it upon the board. My reason for referring to the printed matter on these pages was in con- nection with the paragraph following the table on page 4. Still dealing with average increases in rates of wages, you say: "For reasons already stated the apparent Increase in Rates 548 of Wages sliowii above is erroneous, for the locomotives placed in service subsequent to 1907 were practically all of the largest types. It is by this process, however, that the pu])lic, and even some members of the Interstate Commerce Commission have been grossly misled." Why do you make that statement, Mr. Carter? Mr. Carter: I know it to be a fact that members of the Interstate Commerce Commission have been grossly misled, and I will explain why and how. The Interstate Connnerce Com- mission requires railroads to make reports on certain forms. They are required to report the number of employes in service as of a certain date. The provisions, however, are such that they are not clearly understood by railroads, for some railroads only report the entire number making a full day's pay on the last day of June — at least, I have been so informed at a hearing of the Interstate Commerce Commission. Others adopt differ- ent methods, and some of them are very inaccurate methods. In any event, they do not pretend to report all the names of the employes on their payrolls, and they say, with good reason, that the Interstate Conunerce Commission does not require them to do so. On another form, they are required by the Interstate Com- merce Commission to report the total compensation paid to employes of different classes. For instance, we will say on a certain road there are 1,000 firemen ; but in the report they in- clude only 800 of them, and they honestly believe they are com- plying with the requirements of the Interstate Commerce Com- mission. On another page in the report they give the total compensa- tion paid to the 1,000 firemen, and then the statistical gentle- men connected with the Interstate Commerce Commission divide the 800 firemen into the total compensation paid to the 1,000 firemen, and say that the result is the average compensation of the firemen in the service. That is, all the money paid to the 1,000 firemen is divided by the number of men, using the 800 reported to the Interstate Commerce Commission. Now, that is not an error of the railroads, it is an error of the statis- tical department of the Interstate Commerce Commission. Someone evidently was responsible for the error, who should have kno^\^l better; but, within recent years, complaints have 549 been made to the extent that a special hearing was granted by the Interstate Commerce Commission some year or maybe more than a year ago, and Mr. Stone and myself and others protested against any records of the Interstate Commerce Commission being used in arbitration proceedings, when, on their face, they were absolutely false. The result is that the Interstate Commerce Commission has acknowledged it, has changed the method of reporting. In the Engineers' Arbitration — you will understand the ar- bitration was not under the law — the five neutral members of the Board, and I say this without disrespect to them, seemed not to be satisfied with the evidence presented either by the railroads or by the engineers, and they employed a statistical expert and asked him to supply them evidence on which to render an award. This statistical expert naturally went to the records of the Inter- state Commerce Commission, and he fell into the same error and showed an average wage. Before the award was reached, the arbitrator for the engineers protested, sent a leter to the Chair- man of the Interstate Conmaerce Commission, Mr. E. E. Clark. Mr. E. E. Clark wired him in reply intimating that no depend- ence could be put upon the average wages as shown by the records of the Interstate Commerce Commission. After the protest of the arbitrator of the engineers, and after they had reached an award, I am told they inserted some paragraphs saying that they recognized that that was not exactly right, but they kept it in their award just the same. Now, that was a. little bit too much. I came on two or three months afterwards, and every bit of evidence that was presented of that character by the railroads in the Eastern Arbitration I protested against, I even protested against the exhibits pre- sented by our own statistical man, where he had fallen into the same error. As counsel for the Firemen and Hostlers, I was placed in the peculiar position of saying that our own exhibits were inaccurate because the statistical man took the average wages as reported by the Interstate Commerce Commission as being accurate. Mr. Nagel: May I ask a question? Has such report been offered in evidence before this Board f Mr. Stone : Not yet. Mr. Phillips : Not as yet. 550 Mr. Nagel: Is lie not attacking it in anticipation? Mr. Carter : No, sir. It is in reply to what he said. Mr. Phillips : The statement has been made that the Inter- state Conmierce Commission and others have been grossly mis- led. I asked Mr. Carter to explain that. Mr. Nagel : That may be a very interesting fact, but is it germane to the inquiry before this Board? Mr. ('arter: 1 am going to anticipate that they are going to offer the same line of argument liere that they offered before. Mr. Nagel : I do not want to interrupt you, but I simply suggest it miglit be well enough to see whether they do so or not. Mr. Stone: I understand Mr. Sheean, for the railroads, has said that it is their purpose to file all of the Eastern awards, together with all of the findings. Is that correct, Mr. Sheean? Mr. Sheean: Yes. Mr. Stone: I will say further, if it is not their intention to do so, I shall be verj'^ glad to furnish the Board ^^^.th a copy of the awards and findings, for its information. It was not our purpose to file them as exhibits, however, because they are so ab- solutely bad we do not care to give them that much recognition. We will be very glad to file it if Mr. Sheean does not. Mr. Nagel: You misunderstood me, Mr. Stone, I simply raise the question, whether we are here attacking everything that is bad or shall we wait until it becomes geraaane to this in- quiry? Mr. Stone: For the benefit of the Board, I hope you are not going to attack everything that is bad, because if you do, it is going to be a prolonged session. Mr. Nagel : That is what I was thinking of. Even so, what is to be the order of inquiry here, are we to anticipate what has been promised by way of evidence, or do you propose to wait until it is offered in evidence and then meet it bv rebuttal? Mr. Phillips : If the Board pleases, the purpose of my ques- tion was merely to permit Mr. Carter to explain why he had made this statement. Now, the statement as made here, was that the pul)lic, and also the Interstate Commerce Commission, have been misled. I would like to have Mr. Carter explain, if he can, and it is proper, how this misrepresentation has come about, or this wrong impression that has seemed to have been 551 reached by the Interstate Commerce Commission or some of its members. Mr. Nagel : I do not want to be the cause of delay here, I merely want to add that the mere fact that the witness has made a statement does not entitle him to continue to talk about it, unless it belongs in this part of the case. Mr. Phillips : I can readily understand the point made by the gentleman, and it will not be our purpose to attack ''bogies," or anything like that. I think Mr. Carter felt it was necessary to go into some detail and explain the statement that he had made here ; and, as Mr. Stone has said, we can file the awards, which will speak for themselves— or copies of them, for refer- ence or for the information of the Board, if they will be in any way useful. I am sure there will be no objection from our friends, because Mr Sheean has already signified his willingness to do so. Mr. Sheean : I do not think they should be made an exhibit, and I did not so intend. My suggestion was that all of these awards, some of which have been touched upon or discussed somewhat, and similar matters, ought to be filed, so as to be ac- cessible to the Board. Mr. Stone : I think that was the prime reason that brought out the question, because we knew that Mr. Sheean had made that statement, and knew these awards would be before the Board. Of course, while I do not suppose the Board is going to be interested in what caused the strike of the French mail carriers, or matters of that kind, yet it is in the award and in the opinion handed down by the Board. Mr. Phillips: Now, Mr. Carter, you may proceed to ex- plain, if it is agreeable to the Board. (The last portion of Mr. Carter's answer was repeated to him by the reporter.) Mr. Carter: I haven't anything further to say on that, except to say that there is another way that anyone may easily be misled, even members of Boards of Arbitration. We will take the matter of average wages and increases in average wages. Let us say, in 1907, on a certain road, unnamed, they had 100 small engines, on which there was a low rate of wages paid. In 1910 they had those small engines and another 100 engines, midway between the largest and smallest, on which 552 a higher rate was paid. In 1914, they had the largest engine in service, on which the highest rate was paid. Now, the Interstate Commerce Commission and the Bureau of Railway Economics, maintained in Washington by the railroads, have seemingly overlooked that if they take the average rate in each of those years paid on that railroad, it shows a wonderful increase, when, in fact, there may not hav^e been a penny of increase. They are comparing the rates on the small engines in 1907, with the rates of the medium sized engines, in 1910, and, in 1914, ^\dth the rates on the largest engines, and they say the average rate, in 1907, we will say was 27 cents an hour. Now, by the introduction of larger power in 1910 it might be 30 cents an hour; and by the introduction of still larger power in 1914, it may be an average of 35 cents an hour, and they say that is the increase in rates, when the fact is possible that there would not be a penny of in- crease in rates on the same engines. Now, the whole world has been deceived in that way. The railroads maintain at Washington what is known as the Bureau of Railway Economics. They have had very learned men in charge, Mr. McPherson — of what university is that — was nominally in charge, and Mr. Dixon, a statistician of repute, was next in charge, I think. Now, they did not discover that condi- tion, nor did they discover if you divide 800 firemen into what 1,000 firemen earn, you do not show the true average. Now, the Bureau of Railway Economics has gotten out bulletins, from time to time, for the purpose of showing that railroad men were receiving excessively high wages, and they have overlooked, statisticians as they were, the inaccuracy of their deductions. As the best evidence that the members of the Interstate Commerce Connnission have been misled and as the best evi- dence that the railroads have availed themselves of that, I have here the brief of the railroads in the Firemen's Arbitration, and they begin the brief with this quotation: " Railroad labor, certainly organized railroad labor, is probably as well paid, and some say better paid than labor of other kinds, upon the average. Advance in Rates Cases, 20 I. C. C. R., 243.)" Now, members of the Interstate Commerce Commission 553 have as much as intimated, in open hearing, that they misunder- stood the facts when they made that statement; and the rail- roads must not have understood that they were misleading- the public, because I believe that if they had thought that to divide the earnings of 1,000 firemen by 800 men was misleading, they would not have used it in their brief to defeat the firemen in their efforts for an increase in wages. I am not attributing any dis- honesty of purpose to them, I think it was an oversight. When they say that when a railroad pays $4 a day on a Mikado and only paid $3 on a small engine, that is a 25 per cent increase in wages, when they saj' ' ' We are paying $4 and before we only paid $3," I am sure they would not deliberately deceive the public in their bulletins issued by the Bureau of Railway Eco- nomics. Mr. Phillips : If I understand you correctly, there are two ways in which a lajinan, even a learned man, may fall into error; first, by taking the total amount of wages earned and dividing that total by a number of employes less than actually worked in earning that aggregate amount, that would bring a higher average per man than would actually be the case? Mp. Carter: Yes. Mr. Phillips : Then, by another method, a small engine, as you say, carrying a three dollar rate at one time, may be entirely supplanted by a large engine carrying a four dollar rate five years later or three years later, and there appears to be a 33 1/3 per cent increase in pay, when, as a matter of fact, there has been no change in rates at all? Mr. Carter : That is what I was trying to bring out. Mr. Phillips : In citing such examples you only do so for the purposes of exemplification, do you not? Mr. Carter : I do it to show that we here should be guarded against the errors that everybody else has conunitted. I do not want the members of this Board to fail into the same error that the members of the Interstate Commerce Commission did, or tlie statisticians of the railroads in their Bureau of Railway Eco- nomics, and the fact that they all fell into this error shows how easy it is to fall into an error honestly, and I do not want any- body to fall into an error of that kind here. Mr. Phillips : Do you believe that the fact that the forms 554 on wliich these reports have been made have been changed, is evidence that they were recognized as being inaccurate? Mr. Carter: They were changed because of great com- plaint. I made a protest to the Chairman of the Interstate Com- merce Commission that it was unfair to railroad employes for the Interstate Commerce Commission to permit such statistics, taken from that office, to be used in arbitration proceedings. They seemed to take considerable interest in it, and Mr. Stone and I and others were notified that there would be a special hear- ing on the subject, and there was a hearing, and I brought out the manner in which any person, no matter how honest, and, I might say, how expert as a statistician, might fall into an error ; and I do not know whether it was what I said or not, but they have changed the method, and hereafter they are not going to permit such errors. Mr. Phillips : Now, Mr. Carter, before closing with this ex- hibit, I understand that some of the tables contained herein are derivative tables, from other tables, is that correct? Mr. Carter: What you might call the basic tables of this report are tables 7, 8 and 9. While table 7 is a basic table of this report, it is a derivative table from the schedules in effect for the years named. Table 8, while used as a basic table in this report, is a derivative table from Bulletins 131 and 143, issued by the Bureau of Labor Statistics. Table 9 is based upon a statement prepared by the Bureau of Labor Statistics two years ago, I think, but I had nothing nearer. Now, other tables in this report are based upon tables 7, 8 and 9. Mr. Phillips : Mr, Carter, have you the bulletins, the gov- ernment editions, to which you have referred as Bulletins num- bers 131 and 143? Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Phillips: I have here Bulletin of the United States Bureau of Labor Statistics, Number 131. Do you identify this as the bulletin from which you have quoted? Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Phillips : We desire to introduce this as Exhibit Num- ber 6. (Bulletin, so offered and identified, was received in evi- dence and thereupon marked ** Employes' Exhibit No. 6, De- cember 7, 1914.") 555 Mr. Phillips : We have here Bulletin Number 143, from the Bureau of Labor Statistics. Is this the volume from which your figures were taken! Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Phillips: We desire to introduce this Bulletin num- ber 143, as Exhibit number 7. (The Bulletin, so offered and identified, was received in evidence and thereupon marked ' ' Employes ' Exhibit No. 7, De- cember 7, 1914.") Mr. Burgess: I would like to ask Mr. Carter a question before you go to your other exhibit. Mr. Phillips: It will not be our purpose to ask a single question on these exhibits. We file them as supporting data, that is all. Mr. Burgess : I do not want to interrupt you if you are not through. Mr. Phillips : You are not interrupting me at all. Mr. Burgess : Mr. Carter, please turn to table 4, page 12. In order that there will be no mistake, I would like to ask you where you obtained the figures which set forth that a hod carrier, working in the city of Chicago, would receive $15.36 for sixteen hours work on a Sunday or a holiday, while an engineer on the Chicago, Burlington & Quincy Railroad, running the largest type of engines, would receive $5.12 less money with the same basis of hours? Mr. Carter : The hod carrier 's rate was taken from Bulle- tin number 143, for the year 1913, and the rate of overtime was taken from table 8, for the city of Chicago, on page 93 of Exhibit 5, as reported by the Bureau of Labor Statistics, at Washington. Mr. Burgess : Well, that applies, then, to all the rates that we find in this table, namely, that the same hod carrier would receive $8.96 more than a locomotive fireman, on the largest en- gine, for sixteen hours, provided the service was rendered on a Sunday or a holiday 1 Mr. Carter : Yes ; but do not misunderstand me, these hod carriers do not do that work. If they were required to do that work they would be so paid, but no employer would pay them, he would hire more hod carriers, you know. Mr. Burgess : But, if he was required to do that work, he would receive that much more money? 556 Mr. Carter : Yes. Mr. Park : Are the hod carriers required to work between certain specified hours? Mr. Carter : I believe they have certain hours to report and certain liours to quit. Mr. Park: Tlien, if it was necessary to i)ush a buikling along, it would be necessary to pay the double time, wouldn't it, so that they would get the big pay for the day's work? Mr. Carter : I think they would hire more hod carriers. Mr. Park : Can they hire more hod carriers if the character of the work is such that it has got to go along during the night, sav? Mr. Carter: They pay the excessive rate if they do the work at night, and that applies to nearly all trades, except the printing trade, where they have two shifts, and the bakers' trade, where they have two shifts, and then they pay a higher rate. Mr. Park : So they could not escape the paying of double time by employing more hod carriers; that would not be per- mitted, would it, one going off and the other coming on at a cer- tain time? Mr. Carter: I don't know what they would do if they had a night force of hod carriers. Mr. Park: As I understand it, they work say between 7. A. M. and 4 P. M., for certain defined hours. If that is true — T tliink it is true of the bricklayers — if they w^ork outside of those hours, they get the double time? Mr. Carter: I think so. I don 't know but what there may l)e, however, an arrangement where a building where they worked continuously could not run two shifts. I don't see any- tliing in any schedule or reports or bulletins to that effect but I am not saying it could not be done. Mr. Park : If you -worked three shifts of eight hours each, you would not have any overtime ? Mr. Carter: If it is permissible. I don't know whether it is or not. But where they have an agreement to work night work they always have a much higher rate for night work than for the day work. That applies in the bakery trade and in the printing trade where they do work day and night. Mr. Burgess : The intent of the question was without tak- ing into consideration what restrictions might be placed around 557 the hod eairiev, I presume it is the intention not to work an engineer sixteen hours or a fireman either one, but if they do work sixteen hours the hod carrier would draw, if these tables are correct, and I have the correct understanding of them, $15. .'J6 against the engineer's $10.24, or $5.12 more money, and he would draw $8.96 more money than the fireman, and $11.36 more money than the hostler for the same number of hours. Mr. Park: I understand that it is generally conceded that it takes about 80 per cent of the cost of a building to pay the labor in Chicago. Mr. Burgess : That might be. Are you through, Mr. Park? Mr. Park: That is all, yes. Mr. Burgess : Mr. Carter, there has been considerable in- terrogation by counsel from both sides in regard to the reason that prompted the selection of certain weights on drivers as the proper method to measure the compensation for engineers and firemen. Is it not a fact that for many years the size of the cylinder was the controlling factor for determining the compen- sation for Engineers and Firemen? Mr. Carter: On some roads. Mr. Burgess : Can you state whether or not the principle that governed the selection of the figures in your proposal known as weights on drivers, was that they were selected because they conformed approximately to the weight that they found with engines that had a certain size cylinder, before that expression was used? Mr. Carter: Not necessarily so, in every instance. Mr. Burgess: No, but in a general way? Mr. Carter: In a general way you will find that on roads where the rates of wages of Engineers and Firemen are based on cylinder dimensions, that the rate increases with the size of the locomotive. That is, the low rate under cylinder dimension, would be a low rate under weight on drivers, and vice versa. Mr. Burgess: Yes, but as I remember the testimony, as yet there has been no clear statement as to why given weights as appear in your proposal, were selected. In order to clear that situation, in my own mind at least, I assumed that an en- gine that was formerly spoken of as an 18-inch cylinder, was now spoken of as a certain weight on drivers. Mr. Carter: Well, approximately, that is correct. 558 Mr. Burgess: And that weight was detennined by the weight they found on the drivers when they spoke of her as a certain sized cylinder engine? Mr. Carter: Approximately that is correct, but in some instances it is not correct. A locomotive may have a 22-inch cylinder, carrying 225 pounds of steam. On account of that high steam pressure it calls for heavier weight on drivers. Another engine having the same size cylinder may only have 160 pounds of steam, and while the cylinders on both engines are the same, you will find that the size and weight of the loco- motives are vastly different. Mr. Burgess: I was speaking, of course, Mr. Carter, in a general way. Mr. Carter: In a general way you will find that the in- crease is intended to cover the same idea. Mr. Stone: Mr. Carter, I should like to ask you in these hourly rates you show here for engineers — Mr. Carter: What page, please? Mr. Stone: Pages 18 to 58; you arrive at that by dividing the daily rate by 10, which gives the hourly rate. Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Stone: Is it not a fact that any one of these men could be worked ten hours at that rate without receiving any more additional pay than the daily rate shown? Mr. Carter: Yes, that is the intent of the rate. You will understand, however, that if wages are fixed on the mileage basis of so much for one hundred miles, when that hundred miles has been performed, that money has been earned, and employes are not required to fill out the ten hours. Mr. Stone: That is true; while he might possibly earn that amount of money in less than that number of hours, yet the fact remains that that number of hours would have to be exceeded before any additional pay would be received? Mr. Carter: On a division of 100 miles, unless it requires over ten hours to make the trip, why there would be no addi- tional pay received. Mr. Stone: In showing this increase for this night service to all these other crafts, is it not a fact that the railroads recog- nize this same principle for men in the shop trades, such as machinists, boiler makers and so forth? 559 Mr. Carter: I cannot answer that question. I have not made an investigation. I will say, that I had started the prepara- tion of an exhibit of several hundred pages, showing the wage schedules of all these other trades, but the arbitration came toe quick. I did not get to finish it. Mr. Stone: Is it not a fact that yard crews such as switch- men and yard conductors and yard foremen, such as they are called, are paid a higher rate for the night workers slip tricks. Mr. Carter: I understand that switchmen working in yards receive a higher rate for night work than for day work. I cannot certify to the accuracy of that. I have seen it in schedules, but I don't remember what schedules. Mr. Stone : In speaking of these men who work alongside the track in the building trades, is there any comparison of the responsibility between the two men, the men in the cab of the locomotive and the men in the building trades 1 Mr. Carter: Not from my viewpoint; but I do not know what their viewpoint is. Mr. Stone: I think you said you were not aware of the Interstate Commerce Commission ruling that the time begins when responsibility begins, and ends when responsibility ceases? Mr. Carter: I have overlooked that ruling. Mr. Stone: Is it not a fact that there is such a ruling? Mr. Carter : I say if there is I have overlooked it. I have all the rulings of the Interstate Commerce Commission on the Hours of Service Law. Not here, however. Mr. Stone : That is all, I think. Mr. Phillips : That is all. The Chairman : You may go ahead ; we have fifteen minutes more. CEOSS EXAlVnNATION. Mr. Sheean : Mr. Carter, turning to the first page of your exhibit and the part referred to, in which the statement is made that: ''Eates of wages of Locomotive Engineers and Firemen in road service, being usually fixed upon a * piece-work' basis, at a certain rate 'per hundred miles,' it follows that the higher the average speed of a train between terminals the greater the earn- ings in a given time," are you able to state what proportion of 560 the earnings of Engineers and Firemen is now made on this piece-work basis? Mr. Carter: I think practically all passenger service, and perhaps all fast freight; but I think that the vast majority of the heavy freight service is on an hourly basis, and I am quite sure that all the time of switch engineers and switch firemen is on the hourly l)asis, and I am quite sure that all the time of the locomotive hostlers is on the hourly basis. Mr. Slieean: So that if the comparative tables with other trades were compiled in the manner in which you liave com- piled this through freight, it would not be a fairly comparable basis to compare with any of the passenger service? Mr. Carter: This statement specifically states it is only comparing througli freiglit rates per hour, and not passenger rates. Mr. Sheean : I understood you to say that a large part of the fast freights were not now^ paid for on an hourly basis. Mr. Carter: I am quite sure that it is paid on the mileage basis. Mr. Sheean: So that in the comparisons which you have made, no distinction has been drawn between any of the fast freight and the other rates of freight. Mr. Carter: Yes, a distinction has been drawn. I want it specifically understood that it is only when locomotive Engi- neers and Firemen are working on the hourly basis that this statement is comparable. Mr. Sheean : Only when they are working on the hourly basis? Mr. Carter : Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean: Then if in fact the statistics and figures should show that in the through freight service less than 30 per cent was paid on the hourly basis, this would compare with only 30 per cent of that through freight service? Mr. Carter : If that is a fact, that would be the conclusion. Mr. Sheean: And it would not compare with any of the passenger service? Mr. Carter : No, sir. Mr. Sheean: It does not compare with any of the way freight service, because the rates here extended are not way freight. 561 Mr. Carter : I think way freight men are generally on the hourly basis, and therefore it would compare. Mr. Sheean: Except that you have not shown the way freight rates here. Mr. Carter; I have not shown the way freight rates, but if the way freight rates were the same as through freight rates, I feel sure that the way freight men would be on an hourly basis. That is what I mean. Mr. Sheean : Yes, but you know, as a matter of fact, that the way freight rates are not the through freight rates. Mr. Carter : They are generally higher. Mr. Sheean : Generally higher 1 Mr. Carter: Yes, Mr. Sheean: It is recognized, is it not, in the tables with which you make the comparison, that wherever piece-work enters into and forms part of the wage of any employes, such piece- work rate cannot be fairly compared with the rate shown in this Bureau of Labor Statistics Bulletin. Mr. Carter : I do not think you will find piece-work used in the trades there, except where the employes have been coerced into accepting piece-work. Mr. Sheean: Right at the very beginning of the Bulletin on which your comparisons are based. Bulletin No. 131 , is it not stated in the second paragraph of that bulletin : ''The wage scales published in this report are all for time rates. In some localities certain trades have piece rate scales which it was not deemed practicable to publish. In other local- ities there were nominal time rates which have not been ])ub- lished, as they were not representative of actual earnings under prevailing rates or bonuses." Mr. Carter : I think that is true, and for the same reason I could not consider the rates of wages of engineers or firemen on a piece-work basis, because you cannot tell anything about that. Mr. Sheean : No. Now, in the actual through freight opera- tion, even running first in and first out, in pool or unassigned service, is it not true that when the men are running first in and first out, those who are on hours one day, will be on miles on their next trip ? Mr. Carter: Very probably so. 562 Mr. Sheean : So that at the end of their monthly pay roll it is hard to find, even in the through or unassigned or pool serv- ice, a man who gets the entire month on hours, is it not? Mr. Carter : Not in yard service, but in — Mr. Sheean : I am talking about freight service. There is no dispute about the yards being on an hourly basis. Mr. Carter : I would say everything would depend on the ])ractice of the railroads. On some divisions and some roads they do not consider it economical to get freight over the road at a much faster speed than ten hours, from the beginning to the end. They generally load their locomotives to that extent that they cannot exceed that speed. On other roads they have a different policy, and may load their trains lighter, and want to get them over the road. Mr. Sheean : "Well, these comparative tables are all made to compare only with the wages of men who work all of the time on hours, Mr. Carter: No, sir. I will try to state it distinctly, so that there shall be no misunderstanding. These rates quoted in this table for engineers and firemen are the rates paid by railroads when Engineers and Firemen are working on the hourly basis, or when the freight trains equal or exceed a rate of speed of ten miles an hour. Mr. Sheean : That is never accumulated except to the ex- tent of one trip, is it, that the pay for each trip is reckoned either in miles or hours, whichever is greater for the man. Mr. Carter: Each trip. Mr. Sheean : So that in making the comparison, here is the rate per hour, where the payment is made by the hour. Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Sheean : . In obtaining the rate per hour as shoAvn in your tables 1, 2 and 3 — Mr. Carter : Average rate per hour. Mr. Sheean: Just how is that average rate obtained? Mr. Carter: For what industry — for what trade? Mr. Sheean : For the engineers and firemen. Mr. Carter: We took table 7 as it was completed, to the third column. That is, when table 7 had been completed to that degree that we had the rates for each engine for each year, we took the table to the adding machine and registered each 563 rate shown, whether it was 100 or 100,000 in each year, without regard to the size of the locomotive. We added the rates of big locomotives and little locomotives, all together. When we had added the last rate, we pulled the total. We then took the ribbon and counted the number of rates, and divided them into the total, and the resulting quotient was the average rate. Mr. Sheean : That is, Mr. Carter, you took the rate quoted on an eight-wheel engine in freight service as having equal value in this average, with a rate quoted on an engine weighing be- tween 140,000 and 170,000 pounds on drivers. Mr. Carter: I did, greatly to the detriment of the men, and greatly to the benefit of the railroad companies. Mr. Sheean: That is, that rate quoted on an eight-wheel engine, whicli would be used in freight service only in case of emergency, would it not — Mr. Carter: How is that? Mr. Sheean: This small eight-wheel engine would be used in freight ser\dce only with great irregularity. Mr. Carter : I should hate to answer that question, because I do not positively know, but I should judge that to be true. Mr. Sheean : And the number of engines taking the weight on drivers between 140,000 and 170,000 pounds, might run into the hundreds of engines? Mr. Carter: Yes, but in finding an average of rates, it does not matter anything about the number of engines. Mr. Sheean : Nothing about the numbers of engines ! Mr. Carter: It has nothing to do with the average. Mr. Sheean: Nor how many operate under any actual rate? Mr. Carter: No, sir. Mr. Sheean: Or whether any of them actually paid that rate. You took the number of rates shown in the schedule, and totaled the number; but whether any engine actually operates under any of those rates at any time, you arrive at the average by dividing the total rate by the total number quoted? Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Sheean: And that is the average rate for each one of these? Mr. Carter: That is the average rate. May I explain the difference between average rate and average earnings? 564 Mr. JSheeau: 1 wisli you would, because I do not tliiuk you have always made that distinction in your testimony, between average rate and average earnings. Mr. Carter: I will say that the earnings of a hundred fire- men on a railroad may increase or decrease at a different ratio than the earnings of any one of them, for eacli one depends upon the rate on one engine, while the earnings for the one hundred men depend upon the earnings for the hundred engines. Now, an average rate is an average of rates, not an average of earnings. Mr. Sheean: And the rates thus averaged are the rates which appear in the schedule. Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Sheean: Irrespective of the number of engines that may operate under any rate, and irrespective of the fact that no engine may have operated under certain of the rates during the particular time. Mr. Carter: That is true. Mr. Sheean: So that the per cent of increase here is a per cent based u])on the numbers of rates shown in the different schedules. Mr. Carter: Yes, but it will be much higher than if we had excluded these little engines that you say are not in freight service. If they had been excluded, it would be much higher than I have shown. Mr. Sheean: The percentage average shown in any par- ticular line would be dependent upon how many different rates were quoted in that schedule. The greater number of rates there were quoted, the greater deduction it would accomplish in the average. Mr. Carter: Yes, and I want to confess that if it is true that the smaller engines are no longer in freight service, the average rate is less in the book than it is in fact ; because if you exclude those small engines from the computation, you will naturally find a higher average rate. Mr. Sheean: You will find a higher average rate, and therefore a higher average increase, for you are di\4ding it by a less number. Mr. Carter: Not necessarily so. I think the contrary is true. I think it would be less. Mr. Sheean: Mr. Carter, if you are taking an aggregate 565 total of percentages and are dividing that simply by an ag- gregate number in order to find the average per cent, by as much as you reduce the number, by so much you will increase the per- cent, if the total remains the same, will you not"? Mr. Carter: No, sir. If you add six and six together and divide by two, the average will be six. If you add six and six and six together and divide by three, the average will be six; and if you only use six once, it will be six; so that the number you use does not affect the average. Mr. Sheean: The number of rates that are quoted in the schedule will affect your percentage? Mr. Carter : No, if you left out all the high rates on these big Mikados and Mallets, it would make it leas, and if you leave out all the eight wheel engines that you talk about being out of the freight service, it would be more; therefore that state- ment there is largely against the men and very favorable to the company. Mr. Sheean: Mr. Carter, if you had here one engine, an eight wheel engine, which in 1910 was taking this rate, and one ten wheel engine which was taking this rate, and 500 Consoli- dation engines which were taking that rate, and then in 1913 the numbers had changed in the actual operation of that road, could you tell anything about what was the average payment to the men on that road? Mr. Carter : I would not want to, and it has nothing to do with the average rate or the average price. If you wiU take — Mr. Sheean : Let me ask you this : Has it anything to do with the average of what the company pays, or the average money the man receives ? Mr. Carter : It shows the exact average rate that the man receives, but not what the men receive. The Chairman: We will take an adjournment until 10 o 'clock tomorrow morning. (Whereupon, at 5 o'clock P. M., Monday, December 7, 1914, an adjournment was taken until 10 o'clock A. M., Tuesday, De- cember 8, 1914.) 567 IN THE MATTER OF THE ARBITRATION hetiveen the WESTERN RAILWAYS and BROTHERHOOD OF LOCOMOTIVE ENGINEERS and BROTHERHOOD OF LOCOMOTIVE FIRE- MEN AND ENGINEMEN under the Act approved July 15, 1913, by agree- ment dated August 3, 1914. Chicago, Illinois, December 8, 1914. Met i)ursuant to adjoiuiiment at 10 o'clock A. M. Present: Arbitrators and parties as before. W. S. CARTER was recalled for further examination, and, having been previously sworn, testified as follows: The Chairman: Proceed with the witness. Mr. Sheean : Mr. Carter, will you kindly turn to page 562 of the printed transcri])t of yesterday's proceedings. About the middle of the page I asked this question: "Well, these comparative tables are all made to compare only with the wages of men who work all of the time on hours." The answer given by you a})pears as follows : "No, sir. I will try to state it distinctly, so that there shall be no misunderstanding. "These rates quoted in this tal)le for engineers and fire- men are the rates aid by railroads when Engineers and Fire- men are working on the hourly basis, or when the freight trains equal or exceed a rate of s])eed of ten miles an hour." Mr. Carter: That was an error, and I have it corrected in my copy. Mr. Sheean: That should be— 566 Mr. Carter: Wlicii tliey do not exceed ten miles an hour. I liave tliat marked to read into tlie record later on as a cor- rection. Mr. Sheean : So that the tahles that you ])repared, or the tables shown in this ex]iil)it, are api^licable by way of compari- son only in the case where the men are i)aid on the hourly ])asis, or where the si)eed is not ,a:reater than ten miles ])ei- hour? Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Sheean : And so, in the comparisons tiiat you make, where the i)ay for twelve hours is set out, if in that twelve hours a man ran 160 miles, it would be 1.6 times the rate set forth instead of 1.2 times the rate that you set out in your table? Mr. Carter: The rate would l)e 33M{ per cent higher. For twelve hours, 160 miles, he would get paid for 160 miles, or the equivalent of 16 hours. That would be 33Mi per cent more. Mr. Sheean: You ex})lained yesterday the difference l)e- tween average rates and average earnings. Is it a fact that in the exhibit you ])repared yesterday, in the columns ''Rate of wages per hour," those are the average rates as distinguished from the average earnings? ^fr. Carter: On what page is this? Mr. Sheean: In any of the exhibits. Mr. Carter: Table'?? Mr. Sheean : Table 7. Mr. Carter: Will you ask the question again? Mr. Sheean: In each of these columns headed "Rate of wages" tlie extension there made is the rate as distinguished from the earnings. Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Sheean : Where you pointed out that there was a dis- tinction l)etween the average rate and the average earnings. Mr. Carter: Tlie rate and the earnings would be equiva- lent, or 1 might say representative of each other, so long as the speed of the freight train does not exceed ten miles per hour. Mr. She<'an: Well, the manner in which your tables are made up, where you reduce them to averages, w-onld be by way of exaggerated illustration that if one engine took a $4 rate and 999 engines took a $6 rate, you would show the average rate as $5? Mr. Carter: Yes, the average of rates. 'k k K % « • • X^ 569 Mr. Sheean: And throughout all of these averages, they are made up on that basis? Mr. Carter: Yes, but you will understand, by reading the descriptive matter that begins on page 3, that I do not hesitate to criticise this method of reaching averages. Mr. Sheean: Now, if you will please turn to Table 7, which I believe you said was the first one of the basic tables in the exhibit, I note that on the Atchison, Topeka & Santa Fe you have set out the rates on the different divisions of that road. Without going into the detail of those different divisions, it is a fact, is it not, Mr. Carter, that the classifications and the rates on these different divisions have been separately nego- tiated by the employes on those divisions'? Mr. Carter : I am not familiar with what was said at the conferences that led to this arrangement. Mr, Sheean: But you do know as a matter of fact that one general chairman negotiates for one of these divisions and another general chairman for another? Mr. Carter: No, sir. They have one local chairman for each division of the engineers or lodge of the firemen, but collectively on the Atchison, Topeka & Santa Fe, Eastern and Western lines, they have one general chairman. Mr. Sheean: And the Atchison, Topeka & Santa Fe west of Albuquerque, the rates there are negotiated by the same men as those between Albuquerque? Mr. Carter: We do not consider that as a different divi- sion of the Santa Fe proper. We consider that as a different railroad. It has a dift'erent schedule, and different officers nego- tiate the schedules. Mr. Wells has charge of the matters west of Albuquerque and his part of the road is known as the ''Coast Lines." Mr. Sheean: These classifications of engines, designated either by number or otherwise, have all been the result of nego- tiations between the men and the managing officers upon- the different roads? Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Sheean: In the Chicago, Burlington & Quincy you called attention to the fact that there were, I think you said, only four, five or six different classifications there? Mr. Carter : Groups. 570 Mr. Sheean: Groups! Mr. Carter: Yes, tliero are six groups, plus a special rate on an 0-2 and M-1 engine. Mr. Sheean: In those groups of engines, either designated by letter or by number, they have taken a certain rate in pursu- ance of tlie agreement reached between the men on tliat road and the managing officers of tliat road? Mr. Carter: Yes, Mr. Sheean : Your cUissitication, as proposed here, would introduce a larger number of classifications of engines than now appears in the Burlington schedules. Mr. Carter: I don't remember how many classifications we have. Twelve, it has been suggested. Mr. Sheean : And would, as shown by your other exhibits, create a spread between these engines which the men have now agreed upon with the management, as taking the same rate; some of these classifications shown on this page would be thrown into one rate, and separated from others as to which they now take the same rate? Mr. Carter: I think there is no question but what they are trying to change existing agreements and settlements on descrijitions of engines. I am quite sure the men who nego- tiated that schedule on the Chicago, Burlingion & Quincy Eail- road would gladly make the change. I mean to say, it is not with any reluctance that they have made this proposition of weight on drivers as a basis of pay for engineers and firemen. I want to call attention to the fact that, np until 1910, wage schedules were negotiated between the officers of a company and the committee representing the men, entirely independent of what might occur on another road. But, in 1910, the first settlement of that year was made by arbitration for the firemen. Immediately thereafter, some of our men wanted changes. They wanted to improve on the arbitration. I mean after the expira- tion of the arbitration award they wanted to change the rates, improve the rates; and I think the usual reply was, ''The wages that j^ou are now paid were fixed in a concerted move- ment, and they will have to stay that way until they are changed by a concerted movement." Mr. Sheean: Now, Mr. Carter, the basis as to which uni- formity was established in 1910, l>oth for the Engineers and 571 Firemen and the uniform minimum of weights on drivers, is now 215,000 pounds, isn't it? That is the only basis that is uniform among weights, as to weights on drivers? Mr. Carter: It has to be a Compound engine that has a weight of 225,000 pounds on drivers. Mr. Sheean: 215,000 pounds. Mr. Carter: 215,000 pounds on drivers, that only refers to a Compound engine, as I remember it. Mr. Sheean: There is, both as to engineers and firemen, in the western territory, uniformity beginning at 215,000 pounds weight on drivers. Mr. Carter : Well, and ending there. Mr. Sheean: What is it? Mr. Carter: And ending there; beginning and ending there. Mr. Sheean: Well, isn't it engines weighing more than 215,000 pounds on drivers? Mr. Carter: You will find special rates for those. Mr. Sheean : And that rate, Mr. Carter, and that basis of engines Aveighing more than 215,000 pounds, is now the only uniform basis for both engineers and firemen in the Western territory? Mr. Carter: I think you misunderstand the language of the award. Notwithstanding, that the award said that on simple locomotives with cylinders 24 inches or more in diameter, and compound locomotives, weighing 215,000 pounds or more on drivers, the rate shall be $3.75, I think that that language does not convey the true intent, for immediately thereafter compound engines of the Mallet type have a rate of $4, so there is a conflict right there. It does not really mean what it says. Mr. Sheean: All I am getting at, Mr. Carter, is that below this weight of 215,000 pounds on drivers, both for engi- neers and firemen, in Western territory, there has been left to the management, and to the several roads, the negotiation of the lower class of engines, as to rates and classifications? Mr. Carter: Until the 1910 Joint Movement, and, since that time, I think you will find no railroad that will consent to negotiate with engineers and firemen independent of a move- ment like this. Mr. Sheean: The concerted movement of 1910, both as to 572 engineers and tiienieii, left to the several roads the classifica- tion and the rates helow tliis wcif^lit of 215,000 pounds on drivers? Mr. Carter: T woidd not say it that way. No, sir, I don't tliink tliey left it to the roads at all, because the increase granted the firemen and engineers was a special movement on different characters of engines. For instance, the firemen received a 15 cents increase in 1910 on all i)assenger engines, regardless of fuel, and on all freight engines using oil as a fuel, and then the firemen, on coal-burning engines, got 15 cents additional; that is, they got a raise of 30 cents ; and there was nothing said at any time in the negotiations, until after the award was ren- dered, as to why the basis should be changed. After the award was rendered and it appeared to the railroads that this pay of $3.75 on engines of certain cylinder dimensions was costing them more money than if it was on weights on drivers, they innnediately protested against the bases of fixing firemen's wages on these different roads, and I am quite sure that right then and there our committee said, ''Well, then, we believe it best that all of these wages should be fixed upon the same basis, ' ' and I am quite sure that they were convinced by the argimient of the Managers ' Committee that what we are doing here today was not only the right thing to do, but the thing that the Mana- gers' Committee wanted us to do. Mr. Slieoan : It has not been done, as a matter of fact. Mr. Carter : We are hoping that it will be done here. Mr. Slieean: That is what I was trying to make clear, that at the present time the situation is that below 215,000 pounds on drivers there is no uniform basis among the different rail- roads for classifying rates of pay or weights on drivers? Mr. Carter: I don't think there is. Mr. Sheean : But, at 215,000 pounds or over, there is, both as to engineers and firemen, by reason of the concerted move- ment, a starting point at 215,000 pounds on drivers. Mr. Carter : No, sir, it is not a starting point ; it is simply a rate for one class of engines, and the Western movement got more money for engines weighing more than that on drivers. Mr. Sheean : I am not technical and did not intend to imply anything by the use of the words "starting point" ; but there is a line at 215,000 pounds on drivers which is found uniformly W."."/ A h, ^ »■«-» »-» J 573 in the schedules of the roads which were parties to tlie Western concerted movement of 1910. Mr. Carter : I would not want to call it a line. There is a special rate, as I quoted just now, which is uniform; it is not a line ; it is not a starting point, nor is it a quitting- point ; and I may explain that there was an effort made to place the same rate on the compound engine as was placed on the simple engine. As you know and as is well known, a compound engine has two kinds of cylinders ; the high pressure cylinder is very small and the low pressure cylinder is very large; therefore, we had to describe that engine in some way differently from the simple engine and yet accomplish the same purpose. It was thought that where simple engines had cylinders 24 inches or over in diameter, the}'^ would be about equal to compound engines weigh- ing about 215,000 pounds on drivers. It is not a line, it is not a starting point ; it is just one specific rate. Mr. Slieean : Well, that rate is on engines weighing 215,000 pounds or more on drivers! Mr. Carter: Compound engines. Mr. Slieean: Compound engines weighing 215,000 pounds or more on drivers. Mr. Carter: And yet it does not mean what it says, be- cause, on some roads they have other compound engines weigh- ing more that get more money, that is, on the Mallets. All Mallets are compound. It does not say what it means. Mr. Slieean: That 215,000 pounds is used, w^hatever it means, it is used uniformly for both engineers and firemen in the Western territory. Mr. Carter: I don't think it applies to engineers, but it does apply to firemen. Mr. Sheean : Well, as a part of the concerted movement of 1910 with the engineers, there is a reference to 215,000 pounds on drivers or above that, as taking a special rate, is there not! Mr. Carter: What is the question? (Question repeated by the reporter.) Mr. Carter: I will read the rates effective December 24, 1910, not by arbitration but through mediation. This is the agreement reached by the Managers' Committee and the Com- mittee of Engineers. This is in freight service: 574 "For en«i:iiu'ers in t'lvight service an increase of 40 cents per 100 miles or less, ten hours or less (except on engines weigh- ing 2ir),0()0 i)onn^ of the Board, as I under- stand it, has already filed a copy of those agreements with the Board. T tliiiik we have copies of them. Mr. Nagel : ^fr. Stone, tliere is a question here as to who is the defendant in this case. Mr. Stone: T should sui)pose that we were the plaintiff in the case, as we oi)ened the case first and prosecuted it first, and that the railroads, I would take it for granted, are the defend- ants. They usually are. Mr. Philli])S: Soniotiiuos tlio Arbitration Board are the defendants. Mr. Burgess: Pardon me, Mr, Stone, but you said you would take the witness stand for the defense? You meant the comjilainant? Mr. Stone: No, I meant for the defense. If thev are anx- ious to call me as a witness for the defense I should be very glad to take the stand, that is, if they think their case needs my testimony. Mr. Sheean : I think that is all, Mr. Carter. REDIRECT EXAMINATION. Mr. Pliillips: In computing the averages which appear in Exhibit numlier 5, w^as an adding machine used, Mr. Carter? Mr. Carter : No, sir. Well, in computing the averages, the averages were all com])uted on a special com]mting machine different entirely from an adding machine. Mr. Phillips : Did you use the adding machine to compute the different rates ? Mr. Carter: Oh, the averages? I thought you meant the percentages. The averages were all computed on the Burroughs adding machine. The percentages were all computed on the Lome Com]itometer, made in England. Mr. Phillips : Is the adding machine reliably accurate? Mr. Carter: The machine, I don't think, would ever make a mistake. The o])erator may make mistakes. Mr. Phillips: But, if the figures are entered in the ma- chine ])roperly the sums reached w^ill be accurate in every instance? Mr. Carter: Yes, sir. 603 Mr. Phillii)s: This other machine to which you refer, by which you made your divisions or struck your averages, did that also work automatically and accurately? Mr. Carter : Most wonderfully. Turn a crank and it turns out percentages just like sausage out of a sausage machine. Mr: Pliillips: Then, you feel that these averages, or sums you added, or the averages w^iere the divisions have been made, are as accurate as they can be made by human agency, aided by most a.ccurate machinery f Mr. Carter: Shall I describe how it is done? Mr. Pliillips: I don't think we need to bring that out in detail, Mr. Carter. The point I wanted to bring out was that the figures in the exhibit were absolutely reliable. Mr. Carter: It has been checked and re-checked, and I have had men from the University of Michigan here to verify them, and I have sent them to Washington and had statistical experts there verify them, and yet I find here and there some- thing thej' have overlooked. Mr. Phillips: Aside from the error of composition or maybe typogTaphical errors, which may at all times occur through some human agency, you believe them to be absolutely accurate ! Mr. Carter: I want to say that I have discovered since that book has been olfered, in one or two instances, where there are errors and I have tried to call attention to them; but other than the errors I have referred to I believe them to be absolutely accurate. Mr. Phillips: You were asked a question yesterday, I be- lieve, Mr. Carter, as to why, in considering the average hourly rates of engineers and firemen in freight service, you did not include the average hourly rate, or the hourly rates of men in local or way freight service. Why was that not done? Mr. Carter: In Table 7? Mr. Phillips: In Table 7. Mr. Carter: Table 7 specifically states it is limited to freight service. Mr. Phillips: What is the difference, if any, between through freight rates and lo.cal freight rates for engineers and firemen? Is it marked, or is it slight? Mr. Carter: Well, I think it varies. I am not an expert 604 on eugiueers' schedules. 1 dou't kuow what it is, but I thiuk possibly it goes as high as 40 cents, and firemen as high as 25 cents. Sometimes it is ten per cent, which makes it more accord- ing to the size of the engine. It is variable. Mr. Phillips: If it could be shown that the prevailing rate, possibly the average rate or nearly the average rate, for both engineers and firemen, was 25 cents per hundred miles, that would be 2y2 cents per hour, would it not, on a ten hour basis? Mr. Carter: Yes, but then understand, it is more than 25 cents per hour for engineers. Mr. Phillips: Are you sure of that? Mr. Carter: I think in some instances they get a higher rate. Mr. Phillips: Well, in a general way, do you know? Mr. Carter: I don't know. Mr. Phillips: Assuming that it is slightly more than that, even three cents per hour, Avould the small number of men, engineers and firemen, engaged in local service, make any appre- ciable difference in the average rates you have found? Mr. Carter: Not in the rates, but in the earnings, yes. Mr. Phillips: In the earnings of the individual, but not in the average rates which you have found here or which you have reached I Mr. Carter: No, not in the earnings of the individual be- cause I have never found any individual that could ever run or fire two engines at the same time. It would be when the rate applied to the individual, but collectively, to all the men, it would be different. Mr. Phillips: I understood you yesterday to say that en- gineers and firemen were firing three engines on the Erie. Mr. Carter: Well, thev mould them in the factorv, three in one; they are all made as one engine. Mr. Phillips: All under one management? Mr. Carter: One captain, yes. Mr. Phillips: Here is what I wanted to get at: If a num- ber of men on each railroad are engaged in handling local freight trains and receive a differential of three cents per hour in their established rate, would that make any gi*eat difference in the average rate for freight engineers, which you have struck? Mr. Carter: It would not make anv difference so far as 605 the numbers are concerned, but it would make a differeu,ce so far as the rates are concerned. Tlie rates are higher per hour. Mr. Phillips: Would it make it very much higher? Mr. Carter: I think ordinarily they draw a higher rate in local and way freight service than that same engine in through freight service. Mr. Phillips : Do you think the position of the engineer or fireman would be changed numerically in the tables, where you show them ? Mr. Carter: Maybe I do not understand what you are asking. Mr. Phillips : Table 3, on page 10, for example ; you show in that table the ranking position according to average rate per hour for engineers and firemen, and employes in various other lines of industry. Do you think if the rate for local men had been included in reaching these averages, that the ranking position of engineers and firemen would have been noticeably changed ? Mr. Carter: It would have been changed, perhaps, to the right of the point in the decimal figures, but I do not think it would have been changed in the cents column. Mr. Phillips : I believe you said, in answer to a question yes- terday, Mr. Carter, that, by using the very low rates that, from the question it might be inferred were in effect on small engines in freight service, that the averages had been made more inac- curate. Now, if a rate was used in compiling these averages, a low rate applicable to a small engine, and that engine was not actually used in freight service, would not that have had the effect of making the average rates even lower than they actu- ally are? Mr. Carter: There is no question of it. The more low rates you add to the total, the lower the average will be. Mr. Phillips : With regard to this average, Mr. Carter, turn to — or, I do not know that you need to turn, but I want to ask you a question regarding Table 7, appearing on page 18. Are we to understand that the rates appearing here, 45i/^ cents per hour for engineers on an 8-wheel engine, and the first rate on the next page, at the top of the page, 511/2 cents per hour in 1907, for example, and I am just reading these for the purpose of ex- emplification, are we to understand that that is an average rate or the actual hourly rate ? 606 Mr. Carter : Do you mean the columns IIMIT, 1910 and 1914? Mr. Phillips : Yes. Mr. Carter : That is the actual rate. Mr. Phillips : The actual rate? Mr. Carter: Yes, sir. Mr. Phillii)s: And not an average rate! Mr. Carter : No, sir ; that is an actual rate. Mr. Phillips: None of the rates appearing in Table 7 is an average rate; they are all actual rates? Mr. Carter: They are all actual rates. Mr. Phillips: And the rates appearing under the year 1914 are the rates in effect for those engines at this time! Mr. Cartel-: Yes, sir? Mr. Phillii)s: And not average rates! Mr. Carter: No, sir, The only places average rates are shown are in Tables 1, 2 and 3, and on pages 8, 9, 10 and 11, and I think I go to special pains to explain why they are not a scientific average. Mr. Phillips : Mr. Carter, considerable has been said about a 215,000 pound engine on drivers, and you have been asked as to whether or not that was a starting point, or a dividing point. Were the engines of 215,000 jiounds on drivers in general use prior to 1910? Mr. Carter : T am (juite sure that in 1910 an engine weighing 215,000 pounds on drivers was a very large engine, except the Mallets, understand. Mr. Phillips : Yes ; and rates fixed before that time had not been on a weight on drivers basis ? Mr. Carter: No, sir. Mr. Phillips: Generally speaking? Mr. Carter : No, sir. Mr. Phillips: Now, would the fact that the railroads ac- cepted or were parties to a settlement on a weight on drivers basis for a new engine, indicate to you that they believed that was the proper method of fixing the rates for all engines ! Mr. Carter : As I remember it, the question of weight on drivers was never o1)jected to by any railroad committee, in any negotiations, imtil we adopted it in our Eastern proposition, and then, of course, they attacked it. Mr. Phillips: I believe T understood you to say the other 607 day, Mr. Carter, reading from a former exhibit, that the propo- sition of adoi)ting a general standardization of weights on drivers for fixing the rates for firemen on a fair basis, was made by a Committee of Managers, did you not! Mr. Carter : Yes, sir ; and I have a great many quotations from that. Mr. Phillips: And you did not understand that the Com- mittee of Managers wanted to begin at 215,000 pounds, did you 1 Mr. Carter : No, I rather think the impression was that that was about the biggest engine they had. About the biggest; I don't mean to say the biggest, but 215,000 pounds or up was a very large engine; of course, with the exception of the Mallets where there was a special rate made for the Mallets. Mr. Phillips : You understand Mallets to be compound en- gines, do you? Mr. Carter: They are compounds. I understand they have experimented on them otherwise, with superheaters, and they are finding that they will probably abandon the compound feature. The compound engine, at that time, was the engine from a mechanical viewpoint, for twenty years. Mr. Phillips: Do you know whether or not the engineers differentiate in compound engines on weights on drivers, at a weight above 215,000 pounds I Mr. Carter : They may ; I don 't know. Mr. Phillips : If they do, that w^ould indicate that even the railroads accord two classifications on weights on drivers above 215,000 pounds, would it not! Mr. Carter : In the instance of the firemen it was an arbi- tration award, and you could not say the railroads agreed to it of their own accord ; but in the settlement with the engineers it was not an arbitration, and I think it can be truly said that they agreed to it voluntarily. Mr. Phillips: I was referring to the settlement with the engineers, Mr. Carter. Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Phillips : You were asked, Mr. Carter, if you carried these rates of pay back to January 1st, 1907, in compiling these tables. I understood you to say that you did not do so. Is that correct! Mr. Carter: No, I thought if I went back to 1907 and 608 brought it up to dale, J was uudcrtaking to do as much as I could do within tlio limited ])eriod of time. Mr. riiiliips: But for the engineers you went back to Feb- ruary 1st, 1907! Mr. Carter: I went back in both instances to the wage set- tlements of the year 1907. Mr. Phillips : That would be February 1st or April 1st, for the engineers and firemen, respectively, would it not? Mr. Carter: I am quite sure that is right. Mr. Phillips : In these other branches of industry, did you go back to January 1st, 1907, in taking their rates for that year? Mr. Carter : No, I think it is much later in 1907 than that ; I think you will find that the basic rates used in Table 7, for engineers and firemen, antedate the basic rates used for em- ployes in other industries. I think so. Mr. Phillips: Mr. Carter, I believe counsel for the rail- roads asked you a question about the practice of men laying off, intimating, to me at least, by the question, that engineers and firemen laid off a great deal more^than employes in other lines of industry. Do you understand that to be the fact? Mr. Carter: I think that is true. ^Tien business is good I do not believe the men can follow^ their engines, and they have to lay off, much as they would like to earn the money. They have to lay off. Mr. Phillips : Then you believe if they do lay off, period- ically or occasionally, it is because the hours have been too long or the labor has been too heavy, and they find it necessary to lay off to recuperate? Mr. Carter: I would say that accounts for a large major- ity of the instances where men do lay off. I do not mean to say men do not lay off for other purposes. They may lay off be- cause they are sick; they may lay off for a vacation; or they may lay off to give another fellow a trip. Mr. Phillips: About these other industries that work on an eight-hour day, I understood you to say that as a rule when an eight-hour man was called to work he had a fair assurance of a day's work. Mr. Carter: I don't think there is any question of the fact that the men in these industries, other than railroads named in this report, have a more fixed period of service ordinarily. 609 I mean to say that, for a guess, 99 per cent of the priuters who walk into a printing office, work the full period of time. I will confess it is possible for the foreman to walk over and say, ''Well, you will have to go home," and I do not know whether there is any rule in their wage agreements that pro- hibits it. I have their wage agreement, but I have not had time to read it. I don't know that there is any rule, but I am going to say there would not be one instance out of many hundreds where such an incident would occur. Mr. Phillips : Would you from your knowledge be able to say that it would be as likely to occur to one of them as it would to a yard engineer or fireman in the switching service 1 Mr. Carter : I think you will find that men in other services are laid off and sent home just about as often as they do that for the switch engineer or switch fireman — not very often. Mr. Phillips : It would be a rare exception in either event, would it not 1 Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Phillips : Now, about these road men, where they have a daj' for one hundred miles or less, or for ten hours or less, can you tell, from your own knowledge or experience, or infor- mation which you may have on the subject, what proportion of engineers and firemen get a day for less than ten hours f Mr. Carter : So far as passenger men are concerned, they practically all do, on account of the high speed of their trains, and the intensity of the conditions of emplojanent, mental and physical. They usually have a five hour day, and in the East practically altogether so, and it is considered that in passenger service a man does a day's work in five hours. It is true the rate is less in passenger service than it is in freight service ; but as it applies to passenger service it is usually a five hour day. As it applies to freight service, I do not believe that on some roads many freight trains get over the road at a less speed than ten miles per hour ; and if you will take into consideration the hour or hour and a half they were called before the train left, and possibly a half hour on the other end of the trip, I do not believe they would ever make the trip in ten hours to the hun- dred miles. Now, as I said yesterday, there are roads that, for some reasons best known to themselves, have never loaded these new 610 superlioater enjdnes to tlioir capacity. 1 lind that they are get- ting over tlie road in s]ilenclid shape, but it is because they are not loaded down. Whenever they load those engrines down like they great proportion of men get their day's pay for any sncli service? Mr. Carter: No, sir, but I want to say to you that tech- nically ten hours or less means thirty seconds' work, and one hundred miles or less means ten feet of travel; but in practice no such abuse of it is ever thought of. ^fr. Piiillips: I l)elievf' there is in the Bible the scriptural injunction, "Thou shalt not kill." Would you understand by that that you were forbidden to kill a fly? Mr. Carter: No, sir, but that strictly and technically you should not kill anything, not even time. Mr. Phillii>s: You were asked a question about divisions of engines, and grouping of engines according to weight on drivers. How do you account for the fact that on engines weighing, we will say 200,000 iwunds, on the Rock Island Rail- road, engineers are paid the same rate as they are paid on engines weighing less than 80,000 pounds on drivers? ^Ir. Carter: How do I account for it? Mr. Phillips: Or can you account for it? Mr. Carter: T cannot account for it. I will have to see Joe McCray. Mr. Phillii)s: Is there any way to explain it? Mr. Carter: Or rather, it is not McCray; I believe it is the Engineers' man. I cannot see how you could determine that on a large Pacific type engine weighing practically 200,000 pounds on di'ivers, you should not receive more pay than on an eight wheel engine weighing less than 80,000 pounds on drivers, not only on account of the weight of the engine, but the char- acter of the service in which you always tind these engines. If you find an eight wheel passenger engine, you do not find it running between here and Davenport, Iowa, on these big trains on the Rock Island. You find it somewhere else, where the exac- tions are not so great. Now, you find the great Pacific type engine, weighing say 200,000 pounds on drivers, in just such service. Undoubtedly the engineer and fireman should receive more money for running one of these high grade passenger trains on the Rock Island from here to Davenport than for running per- ha]is some little two or three car passenger train with a little eight wheel engine weighing 80,000 ]>ounds on drivers. They 613 earn more money for the company. Their re^sponsibilities are greater. Their productive efficiency is greater, and there is every scientific reason for having a liiglier rate. Mr. Pliillips: Then are we to understand that your pur- pose in introducing this weiglit on drivers basis for fixing rates of pay for engineers and firemen is tliat the pay would be more fairly fixed t Mr. Carter: I had in mind carrying out the expressed opin- ions of railroad oflicials, and i)articularly the statements of the chairman of the western managers to us in 1910, and the prin- •cipal witness for the railroads in the Engineers' Arbitration in the East in 1912. I think he said they thought the men should have their wages graduated in accordance with their earning capacity for the company. 1 think they said: "We cannot get away from that principle." Now, we are adhering strictly to that principle. It is the other fellow who is trying to get away from it now. Mr. Philli))s: Mr. Stone, do you care to ask any <|uestions? Mr. Stone: In reaching a settlement with the operating officials of these various lines on wage agreements, is it not a fact that the managing officer is both the judge and the jury in the case? Mr. Carter : He tries to be. Sometimes he is not. Mr. Stone: In case you cannot reach an amicable agree- ment, the last resort, and really the only power the men have, after argument has failed, is a strike, is it not! Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Stone: Is it not also a fact that oftentimes men accept conditions as a basis of settlement that are not satisfactory, but accept them rather than go on strike with their men ? Mr. Carter : I think that 90 per cent of the cases are com- promised. The men on the one hand are trying to get what they are asking for, and the company's official on the other is trying to keep them from getting anything, and they generally compromise on something, and the men do not think they have got enough, and the company thinks they have got too much, and there it is. Mr. Stone : Referring back to the wage movements of 1906, 1907 and 1910, was either one of them satisfactory, either to the Firemen's Organization or the Engineers? 614 Mr. I'arti'i-: For tlie Firemen 's Organization, 1 should say not. Mi-. Stone: llasc yon been ahle to have it put into effect on all the railroads in tlie western territory? Mr. Carter: Tlicic is an evident desire on the part of some railroads not to do what the Board of Arl)itration said they should do. Mr. Stone: And the result is that the men did not get what the award gave them? Mr. Carter: No, sir. Understand the award expired in twelve months after May 1(5, 1910, and I presume that lately either side would have the right to do what they wanted to do; but in wage matters there is only one side that can do anything, and that is the com{)any. The men might want to make their wages higher, and they would have to go through negotiations. I think it is generally understood that when a settlement is made, even through ail)itration, that settlement or arbitration award shall remain in effect until formal negotiations are taken up to change it; not remain in effect by law, but by consent of both inirties. On these roads in the west they have refused to abide by the interpretation of the Firemen's Award, as interpreted by the Arl)itration Board themselves. They say that it should be weight on drivers, and not size of cylinders. Mr. Stone: Coming back to this (juestion of wages being reduced during times of depression, is it not a fact that men in chain gang freight service are largely ])iece workers, and their wages are automatically reduced during times of depression '! Mr. Carter: J think if we should reduce it to percentages, the losses of engineers and firemen because of reduction of business are much greater than the losses to the company. Mr. Stone: is it not a fact that on many of these roads, at the present time, we are experiencing the fact that men in chain gang freight service are assigned to regular engines, and the company refuse to i)nt more men in the pools because it will break up that system? Mr. Carter: 1 have heard so. I have no positive infor- mation upon the subject. Mr. Stone: Is it not a fact that some of these trains are being held in the yards at terminals at the present time, for the men to comply with the legal time for duty required by the 615 Hours of Service Law, and are then run out as soon as their rest period is up? Mr. Carter: I liave heard so, Imt I cannot testify to the accuracy of that. Mr. Stone: Coming hack to the small switch cHgiiies at these small points, is it not a fact that at many of these places they are required to switch on the main line all the while, and keep out of the way of all first class and second class trains ? Mr. Carter: I think you will find that it is in the smaller yards where switch engineers and firemen arc re([uire(l to be on the main line most of the time. Mr. Stone : In that case there would be just as much re- sponsibility on the man in the small yard as on the man in the large yard, would there not ? Mr. Carter: Yes. There are other conditions that offset it in the large yard ; but in the large yards they often switch all day, and never get out of the way of a first class passenger train. Mr. Stone: Speaking of that yard, that little insignificant yard — ** inconsequential," I believe was the word used, up at the end of a branch, that had ten trains a day ; can you conceive of any small, inconsequential yard where they have ten of these modern trains a davf Mr. Carter: I think when you liavt' ten trains as big as they come today, it is not very inconsequential. I want to say another thing in regard to tlie small yard ; sometimes men work just as hard in the small yards as they jjossibly can in the large yards. Sometimes in the smaller yards they never get a chance to eat, hardly. It is according to the business done, not accord- ing to the size. Mr. Stone: Referring to that Mallet engine crew laying at the terminal two or three hours waiting to get out and taking the high rate, is it not a fact, if they were not there, if they were out on the road reeling off miles, they would still get the higher rate for that engine during that time '! Mr. Carter: Yes, sir, and if they had not been called until the proper time, they would have been in bed resting. Mr. Stone: When you call a man otf the extra board, he is called for any engine; he takes whatever rate he is ])aid for that trip, whatever rate that engine takes? Mr. Carter: Yes. 616 Ml. Stone: For cxaiiipk*, lie may run a Mallei this trip and receive the higher rate and run an 8-wlieeler the next trip and take the lower rate, is that true? Mr. Carter: That is true. ^Ir. Stone: Coniin.y hack lo that (lueslion of beinj^• called lor special service. I l)elieve you said that the man was guar- anteed the amount lie would make on his run while he was on special service. Can vou refer me to any rule in any schedule that guarantees any such thing? Mr. Carter: I have such confidence in counsel for the rail- roads that when he says a thing is true I have gotten into the habit of saying yes. 1 (lon't know whether that is true or not. Mr. Stone: AVell, not desiring to question your confidence, I should like very much to have counsel for the railroads to sub- mit to me a list of roads where they guarantee that that man shall l)e \)i\'u\ the same as he would make on his run. Mr. Slieean : A regularly assigned man, was the (juestion, was it not ? Mr. Stone: I think it ^vas a reguhn'ly assigiied man. Mr. Sheean: I will try to look it up. Mr. Stone : Going back to the continuity of service in other trades, if engineers and firemen Avere paid the high rates paid ill many of the building trades, would it be necessary for them to work niuhts and Sundays and holidays? Mr. Carter: I think one of the first demands, or, to use a milder word, propositions of the engineers and firemen, if they got the rates that are paid in other classes of service, they would protest against working more than eight hours. T think that would particularly a])ply to yard service. The Chairman : Will you suspend now, Mr. Stone ! We will take a recess to 2:30 o'clock. (Whereupon, at 12 :.S0 o'clock P. M., a recess was taken until 2::^,n (,Vlo('k V. M.) After Recess. Mr. Stone: Mr. Chairman, unless the other side desires to ask further (|iiestions, we will not ask any more questions on the direct. Mr. Sheean: We have no further questions. 617 The Chairman : Just one moment. A member of the Board desires to ask some questions. W. S. CARTER was recalled for further examination, and, having been previously sworn, testified as follows : Mr. Nagel : Mr. Carter, in speaking of the rule of seniority, I understand that you do not criticise the rule. Mr. Carter : No, sir. Mr. Nagel : But you do criticise the method of application? Mr. Carter : No, sir. I criticised the conditions that made the adoption of the rule necessary. Mr. Nagel: Then, if the adoption of that rule has removed the conditions, you have nothing further to criticise? Mr. Carter : No, sir. I have explained, however, why some men apparently earn so much money, is because of their age, and should not be taken as typical of all the men in the service. For instance, of a hundred men, the ten oldest men would be able to earn ordinarily much more money than any other ten men of the hundred, Mr. Nagel : Then, is it your opinion, that the human factor enters into it and accentuates an uncertainty which is inherent in the occupation itself? Mr. Carter: It has been so considered. Mr. Nagel: Do you think that the uncertainty or irregu- larity of employment, in the case of engineers and firemen, can be fairly compared to the uncertainty which obtains in the case of industrial wage earners? Mr. Carter: If I understand the question, I will say that what is known as panics in mill industries, throwing men out of employment at certain intervals of time, we find on railroads sometimes two and three times a year. You will find the lists cut, and a lot of men out of service, while the general business of the country is not aflFected. Mr. Nagel: Is there an uncertainty in the employment of engineers and firemen, which is constant? Mr. Carter: Yes, sir. Mr. Nagel : And against which it is more difficult to guard ? Mr. Carter: Yes, sir; except as I say, the older men, by seniority, are assured of constant employment. Mr. Nagel: Is it for that reason that you seek to obtain, both an increase of rates and rules, to provide against the un- 618 certainty of employment, juul to obtain a greater certainty of nltiniate compensation? Mr. Carter: With regard to the time and a lialf for over- time, I tliink we all recognize that if we secure that in this arbitration, the railroads will call a new man rather than have anotlier man remain on duty nearly sixteen hours, we will say. It will be cheaper for them to do so, and by that means we limit the earnings of a man to a reasonable day's work, and there will not be so many men thrown out of employment. Mr. Park: Mr. Carter, r.egardless of seniority, is it not a fact that the work is gauged by the wishes of the men ; that is, on certain runs where three men are assigned, is it not a fact that if the men so elect, four men could be employed on that run? Mr. Carter : Very often that is the case, but it is not always the case. Mr. Park: Does not the seniority list affect the younger men more than the older men? Mr. Carter: Yes, but there is a medium stage, call it the chrysalis stage, when you are changing from a fireman to an engineer. A man who has a high paid passenger run and is promoted, usually finds his earnings are decreased, although he is an engineer after his promotion and was a fireman l^efore, because he then becomes an extra engineer, while he has aban- doned the best passenger run, perhaps, on the road, and he has to make his struggle over again, with the understanding that some times when he is cut off the extra list, he gets a l)etter job of course, gets the passenger job back; but, the fact remains, as his age accumulates there is an ascending vscale, and then as there is a promotion he starts down from upward. But, there is a period of perhai)s of from one year to ten years, varying on different roads and on different occasions, where a man who is a fireman on a regular engine and who is then the engineer on the extra list, is probably earning less than he earned l)efore his promotion, and in tliat way it is very precarious. Mr. Park: Is not that condition of employment due to an adjustment made by tlie men themselves, as to seniority, and not on the part of the railroads? Mr. Carter: I think it is a necessary condition as long as we promote men. If we hire engineers, they suffer worse, be- 619 cause when this depression sets in they have no work at all. They are like the firemen. They are out of a job. Mr. Park: That is all due to seniority, is it not? Mr. Carter: No, sir; somebody has to go probably, and it is the young men who go instead of somebody else. Mr. Park: That is seniority. The youngest man goes, and the oldest man holds the position. Mr. Charter: The only effect that seniority has upon it is the rigid rule as to who will go. If it was not for seniority they might pick out a man who has been there eight years and say **We do not need you. You go." Mr. Park : The employed engineer has no seniority on the fireman's list. Mr. Carter: The employed engineer, no, sir. Mr. Park: He has no seniority as a fireman. He cannot go back as a fireman. Mr. Carter: And he suffers worse than the promoted engineer. Mr. Park: That is all I care to ask. Mr. Nagel : You understand, I am not endeavoring to cross- examine. I want to get what light I can, in view of what I have listened to. Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Nagel: In opening your statement you undertook to give the grounds on which you claim rates and rules should be predicated. I understood you to say that it was chiefly the responsibility and efficiency of the engineers and firemen, and that perhaps these factors could best be gauged by the weight on drivers. Is not that true? Mr. Carter: Not exactly in my statement ; almost, but not Substantially that? I can explain the difference. Your statement is in the record? Yes. Mr. Nagel: Afterward a-ou intimated that in certain con- tingencies the rule of profit-sharing might be invoked. Now I should be glad to know whether you think that the rule of profit- sharing would be a safe guide in a case of this kind, in which quite. Mr. Nagel : Mr. Carter: Mr. Nagel : Mr. Carter : 620 you ask for au iiuToaso oJ" rates and for better rules, and for a standardization at the same time. ^Ir, Carter : I was asked tliat question, and my answer was, "Yes, if the men had sniiervision over the disbursements of the profits." Now, what 1 meant — perhaps that was in a jocular manner — I meant that if we could apply the profits, I thought we could manage to get a good wage out of it. Mr. Nagel : Of course, the jocular element is not in the rec- ord, and I should like to know whether that rule, driven to its legitimate conclusion, would not present to us the question whether we could standardize rates for a profitable road, and for a road in the hands of a receiver at the same time? Mr. Carter: No, I do not think that could be done. It would not be practicable. Mr. Nagel : In other words, you are dealing with a condi- tion, not a theory, and your demand really eliminates that con- sideration from the case, does it not? Mr. Carter : Yes, except to this extent. I believe we were discussing the installation of electric locomotives, where the labor cost was greatly reduced, or the income of the same creAv, and I made the remark that the profit sharing ought at least to maintain as high a rate in electrical service as was formerly paid in steam service. Mr. Nagel : In other words, if your demands are to be met, it will be necessary to consider the services of the engineers and firemen upon their merits, regardless of the immediate condi- tion prevailing in the country, and regardless of the condition of any particular road. Y^ou are asking for a standardization for the entire territory west of the Mississippi River? Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Nagel : And it will therefore have to stand on the mer- its of the men. Is not that so? Mr. Carter : The merits of the men, or the merits of the evidence we present ? Do you mean the merits of the men ? Mr. Nagel : I mean the value of their services. Mr. Carter : Yes, I would take it so, but I confess that there are a great many exceptions to the rule. Mr. Nagel: You can always obscure a record by making too many exceptions. T am trying to get at the general con- siderations. 621 Mr. Carter : Yes. Mr. Nagel : Now, even so, we have to deal with partieuhir conditions. For instance, economic conditions in different parts of this great territory may be different ; the state laws may vary greatly within that territory, and so, to meet your views, we would have to eliminate all these things to arrive at a conclu- sion as to what the men ought really to have for their work ; isn't that true? Mr. Carter : I think that is the way it has to be done ; taking everything into consideration. Mr. Nagel : Now, you have given us the wages of employes in a number of industrial lines, and yet to arrive at that average wage you have to take the different wages that govern in dif- ferent parts of the territory in question, and in doing that you really are compelled to emphasize a variation which j'ou are try- ing to eliminate in your demand for standardization in your par- ticular case; isn't that true? Mr. Carter: I didn't catch that. Mr. Nagel: Well, you have wages from 65 to 75 or 80 cents an hour in the industrial lines in different parts of this territory. You average them to show what a reasonable wage would be, and in doing it you have to admit that different wages obtain in different parts of this territory, the very condition from which you seek to escape with respect to your own de- mands I Mr. Carter: There is no question of that. I think there is an effort on the part of all to standardize. Mr. Nagel: Is there any reason in your mind why stand- ardization should be insisted upon in reference to locomotive engineers and firemen, when it does not obtain in the usual in- dustrial employments ? Mr. Carter : I think you will find that there is an approxi- mate approach to standardization in the list of wages I showed you here, with slightly varying rates on account of conditions, but— Mr. Nagel: Bdfore we go to that, as I remember it, even in the large cities, there is a variation anywhere from 65 to 75 cents an hour; isn't that true? Mr. Carter: I don't recall that. Do you mean between Bohemian unions and Hebrew unions? 622 Ml. Xaiifcl : Xo, tlR' UK'ii ill a jjaiticular eiiiploynu'iit. Mr. Carter: I don't thiiik so, not in the same employment. There is that variation between one class of employment and another, yes, sir. For instance, a hod carrier does not get as ninch as a bricklayer. Mr. Nagel: Have yon any table to show what wages are paid other employes of railroads? Mr. Carter: No, sir, I have made no investigation along that line at all. Mr. Nagel : Have yon any idea what a station agent gets ? Mr. Carter : No, sir, I have not. Mr. Nagel: Do you think it would be fair to have sonie- tbing ai)])roacliing equalization to all classes of employes? Mr. Cartlified more extensively or intensively in the protective tariff theory than anything else, to show that the American ])eoi)le are willing to pay more for what they purchase, if it will help the Amer- ican working man. I will not say the American working man gets it, understand, but that makes it possible for the Amer- ican working man to get it, even though they import another cargo of immigrants to take the American working man's place. Mr. Byram: That is all. Mr. Nagel: Mr. Carter, you claim that if all the re&«ources of the railroads were employed strictly for the railroad business, it would be possible to do more for all the employees than is now being done? Mr. Carter: I don't get that, Mr. Nagel. Mr. Nagel: I understood jou to say, that if you had the management of the railroad, that a good deal could be done that is now not being done. Mr. Carter: No, sir, I did not say that. Mr. Nagel : It was not very far from that. What I want to lead up to is this: don't you think that the entire rate question of railroads ought to be considered, with a view to proper service for shipper and passenger, and proper condition for employes? Mr. Carter: I think so, yes, sir; and I think the shipper, if vou will limit him to the manufacturer out here, would want the railroad employes and general managers to work for about one- 627 third what they are getting now, so he would get lower rates. But, if you will refer to the consumer, the man who makes the final payment, I am quite sure that they are very liberal if they know Avliere the money is going that they contribute. Mr. Nagel: You do not think the shipper has learned the obvious lesson that good service depends upon fair compensa- tion? Mr. Carter: I think the shipper is as a rule selfish and is looking out for his own interests. Mr. Nagel : Is he blind, too ? Mr. Carter : Xo, he is simply looking out for the shipper. Mr. Nagel: Is he looking out for the shipper, if he insists upon unreasonable demands? Mr. Cartel': He acts like he was. He protests against any increase of freight rates, and he protests against any improve- ment of conditions that does not benefit him. Mr. Nagel: Properly speaking, do not the interests of the shipper and the passenger and the employe of the railroad hang together? Is it possible to serve two at the expense of one? Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Nagel: Successfully? Mr. Carter: Yes, I think that the shippers are not com- plaining of the increases in passenger rates that are now being- instituted; but you just touch their freight rates and see how quickly they will kick. The passenger rates may increase right along and the shipper sits quiet and says nothing, but you just touch his freight rates, and hear him complain. Mr. Nagel: I thought the truth was beginning to dawn on us. That is all I desire to ask. The Chairman: Proceed with your testimony. Mr. Phillips : Mr. Carter, you made the statement, I be- lieve, in connection with a previous exhibit, that the earnings of engineers and firemen were variable for the first few years of their service with the railroad companies. Is that correct? Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Phillips : Have you compiled any data or information tending to show the variable earnings of engineers and firemen during the first few years of their service as such? Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Phillips: I have here a volume entitled ''Earnings 628 of Loconiotivo Engfiiu'cit; and Firemen lor First Few Years in Service, and Effect Thereon of Fluctuations in Railroad Busi- ness." Do you identify this as the work you have prepared? Mr. Carter: I do. Mr. Pliillips: If the Board please, we desire to introduce this as Exhibit No. 8. (The pamphlet so offered and identified was received in evidence and tliereupoii marked "Employes' Exhibit No. 8, received in evidence December 8, 1914.") Mr. Phillips: Mr. Carter, will you please explain to the Board the manner in which this was compiled, and the tables tliat are contained herein prepared? Mr. Carter : Almost a year ago, several montlis before an agreement was reached to arbitrate these matters, a question arose as to the real effect of fluctuations in railroad business upon the men in the service. I think it w^as in January last that question forms were sent out to divisions of the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers and lodges of the Brotherhood of Locomotive Firemen and Engi- men, asking them to give certain information in regard to the number of engineers and firemen a^jpearing on the lists at dif- ferent times, and the earnings of the men but recently employed, and many other questions of that character. The letter reached its destination in most instances, when it was learned that the local officials were reluctant to give the necessary information, or permit the members of these lodges and divisions to get information from the records. About that time, however, we received a letter from the chairman of the managers connnittee, Mr. Tinsman, who was the chairman at that time, saying that he had sent out a circular, and had sug- gested that any information that should be furnished would come through the managers committee, and very kindly offered to furnish us any information that we desired. At the conferences it was agreed upon as to about what we wanted to know, and in the course of a few months, through the kindness of the managers committee, we received a large number of reports communicating the information that we de- sired. These reports were filed in sheet form, and were so used, because there was.no time to wait for the binding; hut finally thev were bound in twentv-one volumes. 629 Mr. Phillips: Have you those twenty-one volumes herein Mr. Carter : They are here. Mr. Phillips : If the Board please, we desire to introduce the original twenty-one volumes. They are numbered consecu- tively. We offer them as corrol^orative evidence of exhibit No. 8, which is a compilation from these volumes, or a condensed statement of the information contained within the twenty-one volumes. Mr. Nagel: That is a condensed statement is it? Mr. Phillips: This is a condensed statement, the tables herein being derived from the information contained in the twenty-one volumes, and this is what I presume would be termed supporting evidence, or supporting data. The Chairman: Have you more than one copy of these records ? Mr. Phillips : These, Mr. Chairman, are the originals fur- nished by the railroads. I do not think we have duplicate copies ; and if you will pardon the suggestion, I doubt if it will be advisable for the Board to refer to these ; but they are here for the information of the Board, for reference, if you deem them advisable. The Chairman: And not to l)e offered as a ])art of the record in this case. Mr. Phillips: They are simply filed as an exhibit for the purpose of information corroborative of this exhibit No. 8. The Chairman : In order to avoid that, you may just offer to file them and we will keep them for such purposes as we may desire in the consideration of this case. Otherwise you would have to have a copy made in order that one copy might be filed with the court record, and another transmitted to the Board of Mediation at Washington. Mr. Phillips : That is entirely satisfactory, Mr. Chairman. The Chairman: Yes. Mr. Phillips: We will file them for the reference and in- formation of the Board of Arbitration. The Chairman: Yes. Mr. Stone : One thing I desire to make ])lain is, if there is any question in regard to any of the figures in this Exhibit 8, here is the. data to prove it. It is simply corroborative. The Chairman : Verv well. 630 Mr. I'liillips: That beiu.i^- true, will it be proper or neces- sary, Mr. (Miairinaii, that these volumes take an exhibit numl)er? The Chairnian : Not at all. If they took an exhibit number they would I>ecome a i)art of the record, and as such a copy would have to be filed here and a copy transmitted to the Board of Mediation at Washini»ton ; and it is to avoid tliat that I make the suggestion that you just simply offer them as information. Mr. Philli]>s: If there is no objection on the part of the other side, we arc perfectly agreeable to that, and the exhibit numbers now on each one will be disregarded, and we will number our next exhibit accordingly. The Chairman: Yes. Mr. Phillips : This information, T understand, Mr. Carter, was furnished you by the railroads? Mr. Carter: Yes, sir. Mr. Phillips: By mutual agreement! Mr. Carter: Yes, sir. Mr. Phillips: Upon recjuest of the representatives of the engineers and firemen f Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Phillips : On page 4, Mr. Carter, of your exhibit, is a form designated form 15. Is this similar to the forms contained in these volumes, which have just been referred to the board? Mr. Carter: This form 15 extends over two pages and should be so read. Reading from page 4 to page 5. It is a repro- duction, as near as i)ractical)le in its original form, of a typ- ical form 15. This is the Colorado & Southern Railway, but the same form is practically used for other railroads. Mr. Phillii)s: Will you explain this form, Mr. Carter, and some of tlic information brought out in the detail? Mr. Carter: By reading the left column, numbered from one down to eight, across the two pages, you will note the ques- tions asked ; and then under the different headings of seniority districts, you will note that it ap]ilies as applied to each of those seniority districts. The last column shows the same information for the entire road. It shows the number of engineers on the Engineers' List on February 1, 1913. It shows the number of engineers on the Engineers' List on February 1, 1914. 631 It shows the firemen on the Firemen's List foi- hotli of the dates named. The third question, question 3 (a), shows the number of years of seniority as an engineer, of the oldest firemen firing on February 1, 1914, and gives tlie name of the oklest fireman in each seniority district. For instance, the Wyoming Seniority District, the okk^st fireman on that district was named T. J. Krafezik. He liad three years seniority as an engineer. Tliat is, three years iiad elai)sed since he was first promoted to the ])osition of an engineer, and 3'et at the same time, February ], 1914, he was back firing. Now, in the Ft. Collins Seniority District, a man named Smith only had one-(iuarter of a year's seniority as an engineer. On the Clear Oreek Seniority District, the fireman had ten years' seniority. On the Pueblo Seniority District, he had four vears' senior- ity. Platte Canon Seniority District, fourteen years. Ijeadville-Gunnison, twelve years' seniority. Southern District, four years' seniority. Now, that does not mean seniority as a fireman, but as an engineer. That is, these men had been running at the dates named before. There are some explanations, however, following three 3(b) that are not clear in my mind. For instance, on the Clear Creek district it is said that so far as G. Williamson is con,cerned, he has ten years seniority as an engineer, yet they say "Used him in emergency cases only". Evidently the seniority does not apply there. The totals for the road are shown as I liave stated, iu the right column. Mr. Philli])s: And down on the next i)age of the same table are shown — Mr. Carter: The number of engineers. Mr. Phillips: The number of engineers set back living? Mr. Carter: Yes, the number of engineers set back firing as of February 1, 1914. The number of engineers on the extra list. The number of firemen who are on the Firemen's Extra List. The number of firemen on each seniority district laid ofl:' 632 siiK'c tlu' y(>iiiiii:«'st tironu'ii letaincd in the j^ervico was employed, Tlie iimiiber of engineers i)ronioted since January 1, 1912. Tlie nuni1)er of engineers hired since January 1, 11)12. And, the nunil)er of firemen liired sin,ce January 1, 1912. Mr. riiillips: Mi-. Carter, on that hist I note the number of tiremen liired since January 1, 1912, on that railroad is 235; the total iiuniher of firemen on the list on February 1, 1913, was 148, and on Februar> 1, 1!)14. was Kil. How do you account for that? Mr. Carter: I caiiiK^t account for it unless the men were dismissed by the comi)any because they could not fill the re- quirements, or they could not stand the Mork; or they could not stand the low earnings. T do not know which. Something was wrong; they wouldn't stay. Mr. .Philli])s: This is a sam])le form, T understand? Mr. Carter: Yes, form 15, Mr. l*liiHi]>s: You have a similar form for each of the rail- road ; Mr. Carter: Yes, sir, I have them here in these volumes. Mr, Pliillii)s: Yes, I so understand. The next page now, ]>age 6, I find form 16, Will you please explain the purpose of form 16? ^Ir. Carter: Form 16 shows the wages earned as engineers, by engineers who have been promoted since January 1, 1912. This particular form is reproduced from the original for the Chicago division of the Illinois Central Eailroad, known as form 16, and that extends over two ])ages also. You will understand that there are many, many sheets just like form 1(5, but this is just one of them picked at random, I think yon will find many of them very similar to this, on different roads, Mr. I*liilli])s : Mr, Carter, you say this form, as the caption indicates, shows the wages earned as engineers, by engineers who have been i»romoted since January 1, 1912. Take the first one there, just for example, L. R. Proudfit; earnings shown in January, 1912, that would indicate that he was ]>r()moted in that month, would it not? Mr, Carter : He would not have been reported on form 16 if he was ])romoted before that month. Mr. Philli|ts: T wouM so take it from the caption of the 633 list. Now, on down the list, the amounts shown in the several months indicate his earnings as an engineer for those months. Mr. Carter: Yes, sir. Mr. Phillips: Some of the forms are blank down there; how do you explain that? That is the space following the month is blank. Mr. Carter: I presume these blank months are months when he was cut off the Engineers' Extra List and back, firing. Mr. Phillips: Then, the total at the bottom there would indicate his annual earnings as an engineer, would it not? Mr. Carter: The total there is his earnings for the entire year, as an engineer. It does not show what he earned while he was back firing. Mr. Phillips : No, but it shows his earnings for those sev- eral months, or for the months worked as an engineer? Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Phillips: During the year 1912? Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Phillips: And there is a continuation for the same man in the first column on the next page? Mr. Carter: For the year 1913? Mr. Phillips: For the year 1913. Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Phillips: You also show for January and February, 1914. In this particular case there apparently being no earn- ings, is that right? Mr. Carter : I think he was set back in Augiist, 1913, and did not run any more for the period covered in this report. Mr. Phillips : The next page now, page 8, form 17, wages earned as engineers, by engineers who have been hired since January 1, 1912. Would this show the same information for hired engineers as is shown for promoted engineers in the pre- vious tables? Mr. Carter: Yes. You see the senioritv district is not named there, but we have a circle figure 1 and the reference says there is ''Only one seniority district on this railroad.'* That is the Canadian Northern Railway. You will note that the lines are entirely blank from January to September, 1912, inclusive, and I account for this with the understanding that no engineers Avere hired during that period. 634 Business must have picked up in October, 1912, and November, and you see how tliese men went to work there, and when they went to work. Mr. I'hillips: It would appear from this sample form that these men who began work in the fall of 1912 continued in 1913, and many of them worked but little in 1913. Is that apparent? Mr. Carter: There were some of them only made a month here and there. Some of them didn't make any. Now, it is possible some of those men might have been dismissed from the service. ;Mr. Phillips: Now, on the next page, page 10, form 18, wages earned by firemen who have been hired since January 1, 1912, the same information is given for firemen? Mr. Carter: Yes. That is the Hannibal Division of the Chicago, Burlington & Quincy Railroad. You will understand that there might be more pages than that. That is only a sample case. Mr. Phillips : And they are all for different railroads, these are not for the same railroads? Mr. Carter: No. Mr. Phillips : These are samples for the purposes of expla- nation ? Mr. Carter: Just to show what those same forms in the twenty-one volumes would look like. Mr. Phillips : The originals of these forms, as well as the originals for all the others, would be found in the volumes filed with the Board? Mr. Carter: Yes; it makes up twenty-one volumes. Mr. Phillips : I understood you to say, Mr. Carter, that all of these reports were furnished by the railroads? Mr. Carter : Very kindly furnished by the railroads. Mr. Pliillips: Have you attempted to verify the accuracy of the figures contained therein? Mr. Carter: No, sir, we would not have time to do that. We accepted the totals shown for each year as being accurate, and I do not know whether a check of those pages, or any of those pages, would show an inaccuracy. We have never attempted to check them because it would have been impossible for us to have done so in the limited time. Wliere it savs, Proudfit V 7 635 $291.39, in 1913, we divided that by the number of months that he worked. Now, please understand, that the average was unfair to the men, for this reason — well, maybe we can show it better by turn- ing to page 9, which is the lower portion of form 17, for hired engineers. You will note that on page 9, in the fifth column, is H. I. Moore. I took that name at random. The others are verv simi- lar. You see that he worked in November and December in 1912. Now, in 1913 he worked in January and February as a hired engineer, and then for March, April, May, June, July and August he did not earn a penny. He was laid off. Then he be- gins to work again in September, and he works all the rest of the time down to December, and his total earnings for the year are shown to have been $763. Now, in reaching his monthly average, in a waj^ that was very unfair to him, I only counted the six months that he did work, and divided the total amount of his earnings by the six months that he did work; while really in fairness to the man himself the total earnings for the year should have been divided by twelve months, w^hich would have shown his monthly earn- ings to have been just one-half of what I have shown them. I am taking the position that possibly he earned something at some other business during the six months that he was laid off. Mr. Phillips: Would an engineer laid off under such con- ditions be permitted to enter the service of another railroad com- pany as engineer, under the general schedule rules? Mr. Carter: Sometimes they do, but not usually. Mr. Phillips: Usually to enter the service of another com- pany severs connection with the company by which laid off? Mr. Carter: Unless there is a special arrangement. Take particular roads, like the iron ore roads up north, they expect their men in the winter time to go elsewhere and get employment if they can. Mr. Phillips: Now, please turn to page 13, and explain this table briefly, in order that it may be understood, Mr. Carter: This is inserted not really as a table, but as an explanation of how the conclusions reached in the tables were brought about, and perhaps to show what we had to do in order to accomplish results. It is given by roads, subdivided just as 636 tliey appear on the forms as furnished by the companies. You Mill find the numl)er of enj^ineers reported by each subdivision, and the number of computations which were necessary to reach the average earnings of a i)articular man per month. By turning to page 14, which is a contiimation of the same tabular statement, you will note, that in order to prepare this table, we had to make the following computations from the twenty-one volumes of original reports. The total number of promoted engineers reported was 4,098. The number of hired engineers reported was 1,296, and the number of firemen hired was 23,919. Mr. Phillips: You give in a column there the number of .computations. What do you mean by that? Mr. Carter: Why, it is to show what work it was to get this up. There were over 60,000 computations to find the average earnings per month, and that was done twice. Mr. Phillips: On the next page, page 15, without reading the entire matter, I note that you say a typewritten transcript was made, and average earnings reached, and so forth. This is compiled into five volumes. That is the substance of the para- graph. Mr. Carter: The first paragraph there states: ''From the data found in the twenty-one volumes of forms 15, 16, 17 and 18, prepared by the railroads, and from information compiled therefrom in typewritten derivative tables I, II, III, IV, V and VI (six volumes), the information presented in this re- port is derived. For convenience this matter is presented in nine tables, as follows." Xow, where are the five volumes? Mr. Stone: You took them aw^ay. Mr. Phillips : If the Board please, there are five volumes, in addition to those already furnished. Mr. Carter: Six volumes. Mr. Phillips : And they are at your disposal for the same purposes of reference and information. The Chairman: All right. Mr. Carter : If at any time you want an explanation as to what those five volumes are, we shall be glad to make it, al- though I intend to do it here before we file them. Mr. Stone : You had better do it now. Mr. Carter : Can I get one of the volumes ? 637 Mr. Pliillii^s : I have no copy here. Mr. Carter : I will send and get one of the five large vol- umes, and the small volume, number VI. Mr. Phillips: In this first paragraph you say you have five volumes, and in the next paragraph, the two line paragraph, I note you say ' ' Tj^oewritten tables IV, V and VI were derived from information found in Forms 14 and 15 and have been bound in one volume." Then the five which you have explained, and the one made up of other tables, constitute the six volumes which you have offered, do they not ? Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Phillips: Now, please explain them. Mr. Carter: This is Volume 1, of the five volumes, which are the first derivative tables from the twenty-one volumes. In these five volumes you will find the name of every man that appears in the twenty-one volumes, and opposite his name shows the number of months he worked each year, and his average earnings for each month for the years 1912, 1913 and 1914. Then, it shows the number of months he w^orked covering this entire period of two years and two months, and his average earnings for the entire period. The last column shows the number of months in which he did not work at all during this period. In reaching that conclusion I did not include any months antedating his first appearance in the reports. For instance, if he had appeared as an engineer or a fireman in December of 1913, I took it for granted that that was his first service; and, if he worked in December and did not work in January, but did work in February, I accepted it as a fact that he had only been in the service of the company three months, one of which months he did not work at all, and the other two he did. There are five volumes of this typewriting, and I think an exact reproduction of the information obtained in the twenty- one volumes; except, instead of showing the monthly earnings here, are shown the average monthly earnings and the number of months worked. There are five of those, numbered from 1 to 5. This one which I have here, which we thought we were going to introduce and make it an official record, is taken from Form 15. There are three tables, tables 4, 5 and 6. 638 Table 4 shows tlic oii.niiiecis longest in ser\ice, as sucli, firinic locomotives on P^ebniaiy 1, 1914. Mr. Pliilli])s : Does your table 4 as contained in the vohiiue you are explMininu- Ihci'c l.car the same numl)er as table 4 in the other? Air. Carter: It lias nothiui;- to do with it, except that the information contained in the exhibit was derived from this. The tables were j^repareil for the purpose of preparinly segregating them in another way for the sake of making another comparison? 648 Mr. Carter: It is a different presentation of th.e matter found in the railroads' reports. Mr. Phillips : Only fourteen of the engineers promoted or .34 per cent — that would be thirty-four one-hundredths of one per cent — earned more than $170 per month — upwards of $170 per month. Mr. Carter: Yes, and about the same number, fourteen, and the same percentage, earned between $160 and $169.99 — only thirty-four one-hundredths of one per cent. This other table over here is more communicative, I might say, because 3'ou get more information with less effort. Mr. Phillips : All right, then, turn to the next table. The question I Avas about to ask you is this, Mr, Carter : You show 526 promoted engineers earning less than $20 j^er month. You next show 768 engineers earning less than $30 per month. Would these include the 526 first quoted. Mr. Carter : Each succeeding number includes all above it. For instance, it is shown here that for engineers promoted, 82 per cent earned less than $110 per month. Now, that includes all of those above in that same column. Mr. Phillips : And hired engineers, 65 per cent earned less than $110 per month? Mr. Carter : Yes, sir. Mr. Phillips: And, for hired firemen, 99 and a fraction per cent earned less than $110 per month? Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Phillips: Turn now to the next table, Mr. Carter, on page 20, table 3. This appears to be an entirely different table. Will you explain this for us, please? Mr. Carter : This is a table of totals taken from these five volumes. The Chairman: What page is that? Mr. Carter: Pages 20 and 21. I want to call your atten- tion to the peculiarity of that table. In order to get all of those columns in, you will note the table extends over across both pages, and the table reads across both pages. In order to be able to trace the lines in each column, I repeated the name of the railroad on the right as well as on the left, so if you are looking at the right side of the page you can glance at the road there to see what the railroad is, and with the left the same H9 way ; but it is all one table extending across the two pages, and you will note it is continued over and really makes four pages of tables for that form, pages 20, 21, 22 and 23. Mr.. Phillips: You have included all of the railroads here? Mr. Carter : All of the railroads reporting on these forms, but only for the months of February, 1913, June, 1913, Octo- ber, 1913, and February, 1914. It would be impossible to have reproduced these for all the months. It would have been too great, an effort. This is a bigger job than I thought it was when I -started it. Mr. Phillips : Do these tables also show the variations in the month? Mr. Carter: On each railroad. Mr. Phillips: As to the average earnings? Mr. Carter : Yes, sir, on each railroad. Mr. Phillips: And show the number of engineers pro- moted, the number of engineers hired and the number of fire- men hired on the different railroads? Mr. Carter: Not exactly that way. It shows the number of promoted engineers who were promoted since January 1st, 1912, who worked during these months. You will understand that Forms 15, 16, 17 and 18 have nothing to do with men who were in the service previous to January 1st, 1912. Mr. Phillips: I so understood, b}^ your first explanation. Then for the purpose of further comparison you have selected these four months, four typical months you take them to be, and compiled the figures from which these conclusions are dra^ni ? Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Phillips: And it shows the average earnings for the men working in these months, the men hired or promoted since January 1st, 1912? Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Phillips : Now, on page 24 begin table 4. Mr. Carter: That is the same thing, except it is for hired engineers. Table 3 was for promoted engineers. Mr. Philli])s: You show for the same raihoads and for the same months'? Mr. Carter: Yes, and if you will look at the bottom of the \mgo for eat* li tal)lt', or i]w second pai»:o, yon will find the sfeneral conclusions rcaclu'd hy r<'adinii tlic tal)l('. j\lr. l*liillii)s: 'I'hc t'oolin.ns in each instance are given on the second ])a^e t'ol lowing-, tliat is, at the end of tlie next two pages, are they not? M)-. Carter: Yes, sir. Mr. Pliillii)s: And, is tahie nnniber 5 tlie same information for firemen? Mr. (.'arter: 'I'ahle 5 is tlie same information, hut it covers firemen. You will notice the page includes a great many more figures. Mr. Phillips: Now, turn to page IVI, Mr. Carter. Mr. Carter: Page 32? Mr. Phillips: Yes, table 6. Mr. Carter: Yes, sir. Mr. Phillips: "Engineers longest in service (as such) fir- ing locomotives on February 1st, 1914." What is the purpose of this table? Mr. Carter: This table is taken from Form 15, and it shows the average age of all the firemen on all the seniorit>' districts who were oldest in service as engineers. That is their average age as engineers. We will take the Atchison, Topeka t^" Santa Fe Railway, Eastern Lines. There Avere six seniority districts rei>orted. Those six oldest firemen had an average age of 3.83 of seniority as engineers, not as firemen, but as engineers. And, if you will go right down that list j^ou will find for each railroad, and each subdivision of railroad, the ninnber of seniority districts re- ported, that is, the numbei- of oldest firemen re))orted; and the last column shows the average length of seniority as an engineer on February 1st, P)14. You will find that on practically all of the roads, engineers Avere firing the engines. Where the circle figure 1 ai^pears the reference nott^ shows that no i-epoi-t was made by this railroad, that is, for this infor- mation. This lailroad may have reported all of the information except this, but foi- this special matter there was no report by it. Y'^ou will find ordinarily the subsidiary lines. For instance, the first one shown is the Oulf and Interstate Railway, and the second one is the Duluth, Winnijieg and Pacilic Railway. The Duluth, Winnii>eg and Pacific Railway is a ])art of the Canadian 651 Northern Railroad, 1 understand, hut tlioy did not t'lirnisli Form 15 altlioiigh they did furnisli Forms 16, 17 and 18 for the Duliitli, AVinnipeii: and Pacific Railway. Footnote 2 shows ''All promoted engineers were running on February 1, 1914," and you mil see how few of all these roads there are where there was not an engineer firing an engine. Anfl. understand another thing, tliis only shows one en- gineer. 1 think that is a point that ought to be brought out. If you will turn back to page 4, 3 (a), the question is: "How many years of seniority as an engineer has the oldest fireman, firing on February 1st, 1914, on each seniority district!" We will take the first district, which is the Wyoming seni- ority district. We see that that man, T. J. Krafezik, was the old- est man firing. That is, he had three years seniority as an en- gineer: Imt, I take it that that also means that ever\' other en- gineer that had been promoted during those years was also back, firing, because under the rules the promotion takes place in the reverse order of their seniority, and in order to reduce Krafezik, who had three years seniority, you would have to set back all of the engineers who had been promoted since that time. If it was six years, it would include all the engineers that had been pro- moted for six years; so while I only show one name here, the length of time he has seniority as an engineer would indicate that there must have also been many other engineers set back. Mr. Phillips : Then that might indicate, Mr. Carter, in this case, that numerous engineers having three years seniority, or less, were firing the engines on that division of that railroad? Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Phillips : Would you use that in support of your former statement that, in some instances, all engineers were found firing the engines? Mr. Carter: I don't think it is an unusual experience, in times of great depression in railway traffic, to find all of the passenger engines and most of the regular freight engines, fired by men who have been promoted. Mr. Phillips : Is it your purpose in bringing this out, Mr. Oarter, to show the unusual time usually occupied by a fireman before he reaches that position that has been referred to here, I think, as a; delusion, once or twice? Mr. Carter: I didn't say that. 652 Mr. Pl)illi])s: Didn't somebody say that he looked forward with great liope to the time when he would be a passenger en- gineer on one of these high paid jobs? Mr. Carter: That is mostly a delusion. Mr. Phillips : I believe I hoard it so referred to. But, your reason in bringini»- this out here is to show the great length of time that may be oecu]iiod by a fireman in the service of a railroad company, ])assing through the periods of examination and ))romotion, and running an engine extra and going back to firing, lunning back and forth, running at times and fii'ing at times until he finally has reached a ])oint where his seniority wouM <'ntitl<' him to earn fair and regular wages? Mr. Carter: Yes, sir. Mr. Philliiis: Have you shown here by any figures the average length of time these firemen are worked on these differ- ent roads? Mr. Carter: Xo, sir, I never made that investigation. In asking the question we really thought that that was asking too much. Mr. Phillips: ]\Ir. Carter, I read on one of the previous pages here, I don't know that I can turn to it right now — yes, page 17 — Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Phillips: The first paragraph following the tabular matter at the to]) of the page, and the last sentence of the para- graph, "It appears, from this Table," — referring to Table 6 — "that the average 'age' as Engineer of each of these Firemen was 3.44 years." Mr. Carter : Of all the reports for all the railroads and all the seniority districts, the average age as an engineer of the oldest fireman was 3.44 vears, nearlv three and a half vears, the average throughout on February 1, 1914. Mr. Phillips : Previous to that, each one of these engineers ])romoted had gone through the experience of a fireman, begin- ning as a fireman and going through the extra list viscissitudes until he finally got a regiilar job as a fireman and then he found liimself as an extra engineer? Mr. Carter: They thought they were engineers t-hree and a half years before that. They discovered three and a half years later thev were firemen. 653 Mr. Phillips : I believe you said that, for hired engineers, the conditions were even worse, because they had no job to I'alJ back on when they were cut off the engineers' list? Mr. Carter: Infinitely worse. They are like the firemen. When the fireman is cut oft" he generally limits another job, and never comes back. He has got enough of it. One experi- ence is enough. Mr. Phillips: Is it probable, when they cut a man off one road, that jobs will be plentiful on another road? Mr. Carter: Ordinarily, unless it is some local condition, when men are furloughed or taken off because of depression in business, the same depression has caused the same result on other railroads. Therefore, when men are out of emplo^Tiient on one road, it is useless for them to look for employment on another road. On the other hand, when business is so good on one road that they need engineers, the chances are that there are no engineers to hire, because they are all working at the jobs they formerly worked at. Mr. Phillips : Now, turn to pages 34 and 35, table 7. Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Phillips: Fluctuations in employment of engineers. What is showTi by this table! Mr. Carter : This shows what Form 15 shows, as indicated on pages 6 and 7. It is a compilation of one table from all the railroads. It shows the total number of engineers on the Engi- neers ' List by railroads, and so forth, all the way across. By the way, this table does not run across. It is a continued table from the bottom of page 34 to the top of page 35. The footings, however, are on page 35. Mr. Phillips: Now, turn to page 36, Table 8. Does this give the same information for hired firemen? Mr. Carter: Table 7 gives the information for engineers, and Table 8 gives the same information for firemen, and has the like footings. Mr. Phillips : Now, for firemen, taking the Atchison, To- peka & Santa Fe again, being first out, for the purpose of exemplification it shows — Mr. Carter: It shows 613 firemen on the firemen's list. 242 of them were on the extra list. Mr. Phillips : That was the point I was about to bring out. The tolals shown are for both eiiiiineers and firemen? Mx. Carter: Yes. Mr. Phillips: Now, I understood you to say a moment ago that in times of business depression a great m^uy of the men firing were engineers. Mr. Carter: Always. ^fr. Phillips: Then, are w<' to understand they are still carried on the engineers' list? Mr. Carter: And the firemen's list, l)oth. Mr. Phillips: Can-ied on both lists? Mr. C'arter: Yes. Mr. Phillips: Are we to understand, then, that the number of firemen included on the firemen's list February 1, 1914, given as totaling 29,645, included any of those engineers, or did they appear in the engineers' list? Mr. Carter: Of the 29,645 firemen reported in service February 1, 1914, 5,451 were demoted engineers; and in addi- tion to that 7,197 appeared to have been on the extra list. That would leave of the total only 16,997 firemen holding jobs as firemen, who had been firemen, who had never been promoted to the position of engineer. Mr. Burgess: May I ask a question? The Chairman: Certainly. Mr. Burgess: Pardon me, will you repeat the number of demoted engineers who were back firing? Mr. Carter: Demoted! Mr. Burgess: Yes. Mr. Phillips: You Avill find that on page 35. Mr. Carter: Page 35, the fourth column, number of engi- neers set back to firing February 1, 1914, total 5,451. Mr. Burgess: AVould that indicate that there were 5,451 firemen doing nothing at all when those engineers w^ent back to firing? Mr. Carter: It not only indicates that, but the reports show that there were 7,197 firemen doing nothing at all, men who had been firemen and ]ierhaps had earned very high wages some months; but 7,197 of them were not earning anything on February 1, 1914. Mr. Phillips: Mr. Carter, do tljese tables prove conclu- sively, to you, that your statement that the earnings of engi- 655 neer-sand firemeu for the lii'st few years of eoiployiijent wece comparatively low, is a correct statenxent? Mr. Carter: I think this verifies my statement. Mi-. Phillips: Do you helieve that these tables, and the information contained in this exhibit, also verifies your state- ment that the variableness of an engineer's and fireman's work at the outset is very great? Mr. Carter: Yes, I have used the word "precarious," and I think that conveys a true idea. Their earnings and their employment are exceedingly precarious, dependent on some- thing over which they have no control. Mr. Phillips: Then some of the older men, by reason of their seniority, may have comparatively well paid jobs, but a great many of those men are fighting the extra list, as it is com- monly termed ? Mr. Carter : Yes, and I think I can safely state that very, very few of the men who enter the service as firemen remain long enough to have these high paid jobs permanently. Mr. Phillips : It was asked here today by a member of the Board, I believe, who I am sure asked purely for information, if this was not a condition that could never be remedied. Now, is it not a fact that these variations will always occur, and that if we did not have senioritv they might be far more burdensome on some men than they are at present? Mr. Carter: It appears to me that the only effect of seni- ority is this, that the burden falls on the younger men. With- out seniority the same burden would fall upon the same number of men, but the man who had charge of assigning the sei*vice would pick the men upon whom the burden would fall. Mr. Phillips : But the fluctation would not vary any more without seniority? Mr. Carter: No, sir, the fluctuation would be there just the same. Mr. Phillips: You stated, and I believe the title of your book wmild indicate, that this was all due to fluctuations in rail- road business. Now, are these variations due entirely to fluctu- ations in. railroad business ? Mr. Carter: We started out to prove that, but in some in- stances we proved something else. We proved that on some railroads it was not fluctuations in business, but that it was 656 fluctuations in locomotives. We found on some railroads that it was the big engine that did the work, not a depression in business. We found on the Missouri, Kansas & Texas Railroad that they had not hired anybody during the rush period, and they did not liave anyl)ody to lay off, comparatively speaking, I mean. I began to want to know why it was. I have heard that the M. K. & T. Eailroad is one of the prosperous southwestern rail- roads, and an investigation developed the fact that there were, I do not know how many fewer engines, but the engines they put in service there did the same thing and had the same effect that the depression in business had on other roads so far as the men were concerned. Mr. Phillips: Then if a railroad introduces very much modern power, and is able to handle the same tonnage that it ordinarily handles, with one-half the locomotives formerly used, the effect on engineers and firemen will be just the same as if half the business has fallen off, will it not f Mr. Carter : Yes, I think you will find that the builders of locomotives, particularly in their advertisements, which appear to be verv attractive to railroad officials, because they send them out to them, make as their main claim that a railroad should buy the big locomotives, because on a certain railroad two of them took the place of five others, or 46 of them took the place of 100 others, so that w^ith that many less engineers and firemen the same traffic can be handled. The Chairman : Mr. Carter, Mr. Shea desires to ask you a question. Mr. Shea: Mr. Carter, for the purpose of illustration, sup- pose on a seniority district there w^ere fifty engineers and fifty firemen employed to handle the business under normal condi- tions, but because of a depression in business it became necessary to demote twenty-five engineers, what effect would that have upon the firemen's list as it stood under normal conditions? Mr. Carter: Every reduction of a day's work, or loss of emplojTuent by an engine crew, is suffered by two men, an en- gineer and a fireman. Now, in the process of demotion, when extended down to the bottom, the men who finally suffer are the two youngest firemen. Mr. Shea: Then, according to that, the entire fifty fire- 657 men who were firing under normal conditions would be cut off the firemen's list, in case they demoted twenty-five engineers f Mr. Carter: Yes, that is, if there were fifty engine crews under good first class conditions, and the business of the road was depressed to one-half that, so that twenty-five crews could do the work, why, twenty-five of the oldest engineers would run the engines and twenty-five of the youngest engineers would fire the engines. And that is what the men want, understand. They would prefer to take their chances that way, than to take them the other way. Mr. Phillips : Then if twenty-five big engines were bought, that would do the work of those former fifty engines, would not the elfect be just the same, without any depression in business? Mr. Carter: Theoretically, this statement will bo made; but on a railroad Avith a given traffic that was handled Ijy fifty engine crews, that is, fifty engineers and fifty firemen, one of the locomotive building establishments should take in exchange these fifty locomotives and deliver twenty-five of the modern locomotives, it would mean that twenty-five of the oldest engi- neers would run the twenty-five big engines, twent>-five of the youngest engineers would fire the biggest engines, and the fifty firemen would be out of a job. Mr. Phillips: The effect w^ould be the same whether there was a fifty per cent depression in business or the engines would handle one hundred per cent more! Mr. Carter: After going into this investigation, I am con- vinced that the introduction of larger engines has exactly the same effect upon the precariousness of employment and earn- ings of firemen as a reduction in the traffic. I do not mean to say it has the same effect on the company. I mean on the men. Mr. Shea: What effect would it have upon the company? Mr. Carter: It would transport the same amount of traffic, and presumably bring the same earnings, with slightly more than half of the expense for engineers and firemen. The engi- neers and 'firemen on these big engines, you understand, will draw a higher rate than on the little engines, but the number would be decreased one-half, and they would pay each man more money. Mr. Burgess: Mr. Carter, that would be permanent, would 656 it not .' It would not be i)i-oi'aii()Us. It would bo pormanent, would it not? Mr. Carter: Oii, I i>uess you are ri^^lit about that. There is this difYereuce betwc^en the effect of the big engine and the effect of depreciation in business. The business can pick up, but the engines never will uvt little. I am glad you called my attention to that. Mr. Phillips: That is all. The Chairman: The witness is with you, Mr. Sheean. CROSS EXAMINATION. Mr. Sheean: Mr. Carter, that assumption of the installation of the larger engine i)roceeds on the theory that that is going on on all branch lines in the same way as on main lines? ^Ir. Carter: Yes. I think you will find that as the evolution develops itself, the engine gets larger everywhere. That is, except on the scrap heap. There is where the little engines go. Mr. Sheean : And the 80,000 pound engines, weight on driv- ers, are gradually disappearing? Mr. Carter : Yes, gradually disappearing, and it has been argued by the manufacturers of locomotives that no such en- gines should be in use, that it would be cheaper for the railroads to junk them all and buy big locomotives. Mr. Sheean: And reconstruct their bridges so that they would carry heavier weights on branch lines'? ^Ir. Carter: So far as branch lines are concerned, that might apply. Mr. Sheean : Heavier rails also on the branch lines ? Mr. Carter: That might apply. Mr. Sheean : And irrespective of whether there were just the two light coaches that you spoke of this morning, and that that was all th(» traffic they could get on the branch line. Mr. Carter : 1 think you will find the traffic on these branch lines develops as rapidly as do the locomotives, ordinarily, that is, by the development of the country. For instance, when the branch line is first l)uilt, there are not many people there ordi- narily, ))ut the peo])le begin to settle in that country and it de- velo])s its own l)usiness. Mr. Sheean : Mr. Carter, just what effect does this change of the extra list have on your assigned service ? 659 Mr. Garter: Exi)Iaiii to nie just exactly what you uii-an by ''assigned service." Mr. Slieean: I mean the passenger runs that run every day at tlie same time, and the same crews man them. Mr. Carter: I understand that recently the Pennsylvania Railroad has pulled of^' nearly one-third of its i)assenger trains, which were assigned runs before they were pulled ot¥. Mr. Slieean: And, then, ujion those trains being taken off, fhe men wlio had those runs took the next best paying runs? Mr. Carter: They went back into the freight service. Mr. Sheean: They did unless they got something better than a freight run, to which their seniority entitled them? Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Sheean : Well, then, outside of the depression becom- ing so acute that they actually have to abandon trains, that they had before, the shutting oft" of the service or the decrease in service does not affect the men on assigned runs, does it? Mr. Garter: Not the man who is so fortunate as to stay, but it does affect the man who has to move his position. Mr. Sheean: What do you mean by the man wlio is so fortunate as to stay! Mr. Garter : A man who is old enough not to be working on a run that is abandoned. Mr. Sheean : Then on the passenger service, as to the aban- donment of passenger trains, is it your observation that the passenger trains are getting less and less in number? Mr. Garter : I understand, and I get this information largely from newspapers, that about a year ago the Pennsyl- vania Railroad, in the Eastern Rate Case, stated that they would have to abandon their passenger trains, and did abandon many passenger trains; and I have ])a]iers, where the ])eo])le along the road held indignation meetings l)ecause there was not standing room in the trains they left. Mr. Sheean: Now, Mr. Garter, is it your observation that the passenger trains are getting less in num])er in the Western territory involved in this arliitration? Mr. Garter : I think they are getting greater all the time. Mr. Sheean: Greater in numl)er? Mr. Garter: Yes, as the country develops. Mr. Sheean : And as thev get greater in number, so tlie 660 niiinlu'r of men who arc not snl).ioct to this precarious liazard incroasos ? Mr. Carter: T think so. Mr. Sheean: So that that ]>art of the service, with the growth and development of tlu' country, is getting more and more certain .' :Mr. Carter: Yes, Imt— M V. Slieean : And, the earnings of both the engineer and the fireman ujjon the assigned runs remain fixed, certain and reg- ular? Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Sheean: From day to day and month to month? Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Sheean: So that this precarious condition you speak of, in the last analysis, runs down to the class of service that is protected hy what are known as extra boards'? Mr. Carter: No, sir. Mr. Sheean: AVhat other class of service has this pre- carious hazard that you s])eak of? Mr. Carter: You find todav manv men who are firing en- gines, who had regular engines to run before the big engines came, or before business fell off. They were regularly assigned men. Mr. Sheean : Can yon give an instance of a man holding an assigned run who is firing now? Mr. Carter: I cannot now, ]>ut I am quite sure it could be done. Mr. Sheean: AVhat other class of service than the service protected l)y an extra board suffers this danger of hazard or precariousness that you speak of? Mr. Carter: A man mav be ten numbers above this Pjugi- neers' Extra Board the first of a certain month. The first of the next month that same man may find himself on that extra board. The first of the next month may find him down ten numbei-s on the firemen's list. So it is not the class, but it is the individual that is affected. Mr. Slieean: Can you answer the (juestion, what class of service other than tlie class protected by an extra board does undergo this hazard ? Mr. Carter: I think ordinarily every one, except, as you 661 say, these assigned runs that the oldest men can hold, every man on the road is affected. Mr. Sheean: Mr. Carter, in addition to the assigned pas- senger runs, way freights are assigned, are they not! Mr. Carter: Yes, I think so, on most roads. Mr. Sheean: Branch line runs are also usually assigned? Mr. Carter : Yes, they are usually bid in. Mr. Sheean : Bid in by the oldest men ? Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Sheean : So that practically all the branch line service is covered ? Ml". Carter: I will not say bid in by the oldest men — by somebody. Mr. Sheean : If the oldest man does not want it, then the next- oldest man, until they find a man who wants to take it ? Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Sheean: And that is purely a matter of choice of the men ? Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Sheean: All of that is protected by assignment, is it not? Mr. Carter: Xo, I do not think so. The job is there but the men constantl}^ change. Mr. Slieean : Is that changed by reason of their exercising seniority ? Mr. Carter: No, except as I said, that if ten men have to walk the plank, seniority says which ten men will have to walk. Mr. Sheean: Yes, and, outside of the extra service, or out- side of the service that is protected by an extra board, can you tell of an instance in the assigned service where a regularly assigned passenger engineer has been demoted? Mr. Carter: I cannot name him here, but I am quite sure there are plenty of cases. Mr. Sheean: You speak of demotion, Mr. Carter. In the list wliich you have furnished here have you included all men who have (|ualified as engineers, even though tliey never ran as engineers? Mr. Carter: I am quite sure that they are not included. If they ai-o included, the railroad forms wei-c not i^roiicrly lillcd out. 662 Mr. Slicoan: A i>ersoii taking his examination an^l pro- moted as an en^nneer Ijecomes <|ualitied as an en- thai he makes one run a> an engi- neer in a ])usy time in the month of October tliat yon spoke of — Mr. (^arter: Yes. Mr. Sheean: His seniority dates from that date on which he makes liis first trip as an engineer? Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Slieean: And, that inay be the only tri}) that lie makes as an engineer, and yet his seniority as an engineer dates from that time? Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Sheean: Now, I understood you to say that, in a list of 29,000 ]ieoi)h' who were firing on a particular date, about 5,000 were those who liad at some time oi)erated as engineers? Mr. Carter: I so understood. Mr. Sheean: That is, there were abont twenty per cent of men on a date named in your form who, by reason of their ap- prenticeshii^, although firing on that date, were qualified to act as engineers when opportunity came and gave them that business? Mr. Carter: I understand about twenty ]ier cent of the real engineers, men who thought they were engineers for life, were back firiiii"- on February 1, 1i)14. Mr. Sheean: Do you not think it is a i)ro]ier ])ractice that in railroad ()]»eration, in which the fireman eventually becomes an engineer, there should be in that service men who are quali- fi«'(l to become engineers with the expansion of business ? Mr. Carter : Without an expression of opinion on that spe- cial answer I will say that I think the practice we are discussing is proper jiractice. Mr. Sheean: Of having about twenty per cent of tho.se Mr. Carter: Xo, no ! Mr. Sheean: T will not limit the i)er cent, but, of ha\'ing r* ■ # 1 ^^ ----^ • • , 663 available in the uext order of promotion men who have already (jualified by examination? Mr. Carter: No, sir. Mr, Sheean : To operate the engines as engineers ? Mr. Carter: You are mistaken. On some railroads fire- men are required to pass annual examinations, and at the end of three years or three years and a half they pass their final ex- amination and receive a certificate of qualification as engineers. Now, it is not necessary that that man should make one trip in order to be available. He is just as available before he makes the first trip as he is after he makes the trip. Mr. Sheean: I understand you to say — I may be wrong about that — that on some roads his date of seniorit\^ began from the time that he was qualified, under their examination and rules, to operate as an engineer, and on other roads that it be- gan from the time that he made his first trip ? Mr. Carter: On roads where engineers are hired, such a practice could not prevail. Mr. Sheean: Now, that comes to another thing, the mat- ter of whether the roads can or cannot hire engineers without promoting tliem is usually covered by schedule provisions, is it not? Mr. Carter: Some provision. Mr. Sheean: Some provision! Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Sheean : As to how many may be hired by the railroad instead of promoted; there is usually some provision in that re- gard, is there not? Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Sheean : And some schedules go as far as to prohibit the railroad company from hiring engineers as engineers, do they not? Mr. Carter : I do not recall any special road, but I am (luite sure some roads do that. Mr. Sheean : There is that practice then! Mr. Carter : On some roads. Mr. Sheean : On some roads. As to other roads there are schedule provisions that only a certain proportion, or percent- age, of the engineers shall be hired as engineers, and that all the rest shall be promoted from the ranks of the firemen? GG4 Mr. Carter : Yes. Mr. Slieean : So that the matter of hiring engineers, even during rusli business iii)()n particular roads, is not left entirely to the judgment and discretion of the management of those roads, is it ? Mr. Carter : L think that whenever, in their judgment, they want to hire ten engineers, unless, as I said before, business is good all over the country, they will certainly be able to hire those ten engineers, and experience in the past demonstrates that they do that. Mr. Sheean: Assuming that their practice, their rule, their schedule provision or their understanding with their firemen is that they shall not hire engineers — Mr. Carter : AVell, where there are such rules, I tliink they are wrong, and I think they ought to change them. Mr. Sheean : You think they ought to be changed ? Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Sheean: And would you be willing to recommend to your organization that if there are any such rules on any of these railroads, that they be so changed? Mr. Carter : I have long advocated that the promotion and hiring of engineers should depend upon the length of time that firemen are required to fire on a road before promotion. Mr. Sheean : I mean that the particular proA'ision that en- gineers shall not be hired — Mr. Carter : I have told you what I would substitute there- for. Mr. Sheean : But you do not tliink tliat is a proper sched- ule provision? Mr. Carter : 1 think it is rather a narrow view. Mr. Slieean : You do not approve of some agreement br understanding with reference to the percentage or proportion that shall be hired and the percentage or proportion that sliall be promoted, do you .' Mr. ('artci- : 1 have advocated that for a long while. Mr. Sheean: For a long time? Ml. Carter: But, 1 have not been able to accomplish my purpose. Mr. Sheean: H\\\, iierhajjs they could not agree as to the percentage. But, you do agree — 665 Mr. Carter: No, 1 will tsay tliis iiiiicli: 1 think it ia a case of conservatism. What has been, remains, and 1 think that applies both to the hiring of the men and the i)romoting of them. Mr, Sheean : It is a fact, is it not, Mr. Carter, that whether a railroad have the right to hire engineers or whether they must promote firemen, and, if so, in what proi)ortions they may hire and in what proportions promote, are matters of discussion as between the railroad company and the organization? Mr. Carter : I think it has been adjusted amicably to both sides. Where firemen have succeeded in getting a rule pro- hibiting the hiring of engineers, it has always been with the consent of the officials of that road. Mr. Sheean: Oh, undoubtedly, but these agreements have been reached, have they not I Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Sheean: I suppose, an agreement always implies that it is with the consent of the parties making it. Mr. Carter: I mean to say that there was no great pres- sure necessary to get them to consent to that. Mr. Sheean: Mr. Carter, jou do think, A\dthout limiting you to any percentage, that it is a proper and safe and prudent practice that a part of the force of firemen should be qualified to operate as engineers, even though they are not in charge of engines and drawing salaries as engineers on particular days ! Mr. Carter: I not only think that, but I know it to be a fact that, on practically all railroads, except where business has increased very rapidly, they have an abundance of firemen who would easily qualify. For instance, out of this city, I w^ould not be surprised if you had firemen firing engines who, since they first began firing, have been in the service ten, twelve and four- teen years. Mr. Sheean: But you have made no compilation of any- thing of that sort? Mr. Carter: No, sir. Mr. Sheean: In fhis exhibit at least? Mr. Carter: No^ sir. Mr. Sheean : In this exhibit, Mr. Carter, as I get the fo»m of request that was sent out — by the way, the form of that re- quest was outlined by the proponents of this new schedule, was it not? 666 Mr. (aitor: No, I will say tlio qiu^stioiis wore asked and the Maiiaii:ers' Coiimiittee devised that form, and l)eliind their hacks I have comi)liinented them. Mr. Slieean : After yonr request was sent out, tliey sub- mitted this ii-eneral form to you, to see wliether or not it did furnish all of the infoi'mation that you soupfht to elicit by the questions ? Mr. Carter: 1 think so. ]\Ir, Sheean: And whethei- that was a satisfactory form OH which to compile that information? ]\Ir. Carter: Yes, sir; that I think covers everything we asked them. ]\Ir. Slieean : Mr. Carter, if you will turn, please, to page 6, form J(), the heading there is "Wages Earned as Engineers," and 1 notice under the first name there, L. R. Proudfit, October, 1912, $4.40 extended there. That indicates that Mr. Proudfit made just one trij) as engineer that month, does it not"? Mr. Carter: To me that would indicate that in AugTist, 1912, the list was cut, and in September, October, November, December, 1912, January and February, 1913, he was on the Firemen's List: and in October, 1912, lie made a trip as an engineer. Mr. Sheean : He made just one trip as an engineer, one hundred miles or less, ten hours or less? Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Sheean: And got $4.40 for it? Mr. Carter: Yes, that is what I would understand. Mr. Sheean : In your monthly averages here that you have subsequently extended, you have shown Mr. Proudfit as earn- ing $4.40. He counts as one month and as one man, with one month's pay of $4.40, does he? ]\lr. Carter: Yes. sir. Mr. Sheean: And that extends throughout all of these averages, that if a man made a single trip as an engineer, his average wage as engineer would average that one triji? Mr. Carter: I think vou will find that the real difference between what the engineer would have earned, had he not been set back, will be found by refeiring to form 17, hired engineers. That shows, I think, what is the true earnings of the engineer. Mr. Sheean: Now, ^Ir. Carter, if in the month of October, 667 11)12, Mr. L. R. Proudfit, shown as eaiiiing- $4.4U as engineer, also earned the sum of $117.51 as fireman, do vou think that vour average in which you carry out his wage as $4.40, is a fan- average ? Mr. Carter: Absolutely fair, because if you will read the heading and read the introductory, you will see that the only purpose has been to show the earnings as engineers. Now, if it was not my purpose to put a danger signal there against anybody misunderstanding its purport, I would not have said, ''Wages earned as engineers, by engineers who have been pro- moted." I think that the thing itself explains why it does not show all the earnings. Mr. Sheean: Mr. Carter, this man, during that month, as- suming that he did earn $117.51, as fireman, and made one trip as an engineer, was practically a fireman during that month, was he not? Mr. Carter: Except that trip. Mr. Sheean : Except that one trip. And you average that one trip with the earnings tlirougli the other months included in that form? Mr. Carter: Yes, sir, that is for promoted engineers and not for hired engineers. Mr. Sheean : No, that is for a promoted engineer. Mr. Carter : That is for a promoted engineer, yes, sir. Mr. Sheean: Now, Mr. Carter, in all of the averages that you have obtained as to promoted engineers, does that ignore in the getting of the averages, any of the earnings that the man may have made as fireman during that same period! Mr. Carter: It does not ignore that fact, because, if you will trace those volumes, I think that any man, who has been in close touch with the railroad business, can almost tell in- stantly when that man has been on the Engineers' Extra List, running as an engineer, and when he is back, firing during emergency running. Mr. Sheean : Now, taking that same form, we will say on page 6, and beginning with the first item in it, Mr. L. R. Proud- fit, he was promoted since January 1, 1912, and he earned as engineer, $132.17. Mr. Carter : The first month. Mr. Sheean : The first month. 668 Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Sheean : You don 't know whether in that month, and before his promotion, he earned any other sum as fireman, do vou? Mr. Carter: No, I do not, but I am going to guess that he did not earn much. Mr. Sheean: Mr. Carter, Mr. Proudfit's earnings there as engineer are carried out through the total year as being $291.39. Mr. Carter: Three months of which he did not work at all, and two months of which he only made emergency trips. Mr. Sheean : In getting at your average earnings as engi- neers, under your system that you adopted, what did you show as an average earning for Mr. Proudfit? Mr. Carter : I would have to go through these to find what form it is. You see there are so many of these forms, and at random I picked this out of the Illinois Central Railroad, and I would have to go through it. I can do that, however, if you have time — no, I haven't the Illinois Central in this book. The Illinois Central would fall in volume 2 or volume 3. Mr. Sheean: Can't you tell from this exhibit on page 6, as to what amount of monthly earnings, or what class you put Mr. Proudfit in, whether he is a $40 or a $100 a month man ? Mr. Carter: I should say, for a guess, that he would fall within about the $30 bunch. Mr. Sheean: $30 a month, engineers. And if it should develop that Mr. Proudfit, in fact, drew over $100 a month during that entire year, averaged $100 a month, that would not change the deductions that you are making from these tables ! Mr. Carter : I hope that you will not convince the Board that I am making deductions that I am trying to deny. I am telling you that the purpose of this table was to show the wages earned as engineers, by engineers, who have been promoted. Now, if it was my purpose to convey the idea that that is all that they earned, I would not have said "Wages Earned by Engineers, by Engineers." Mr. Sheean : Well, Mr. Carter, I understood you to say this morning that after a man had gotten up in the firing service to where he got a reasonably steady wage as fireman and then when he was promoted as engineer, you had the ascending scale 669 and, then, as you described it, a descending- scale, by reason of his becoming an engineer? Mr. Carter: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean : And then have to go tlirough all of this pro- ceeding once more? Mr. Carter: Yes sir, and sometimes three or four times. Mr. Sheean: Now, taking the first example that we find here on page 6, if, in fact, in addition to all of the earnings, as an engineer, which you say Mr. Proudfit received, averaging $30, or thereabouts, a month, he received over $1200 as fireman dur- ing that same period, or during that same year Mr. Carter : I would say that he was a very fortunate in- dividual, and no wonder his name heads the list. Mr. Sheean : Let us take the second man then, Mr. Prouty. Where do you put Mr. Prouty as to his earnings as an engineer during that year? He is also a man promoted since January 1st, 1912, and this is beginning with the very" month in which he was promoted. Yes. Do vou show earninii's there as engineer of Mr. Carter : Mr. Sheean $313.12. Mr. Carter : engineer •at all? Five months of which he did not ^^•ork as an Mr. Sheean: If, during that same year, from January to January, Mr. Prouty earned over one thousand dollars as fire- man, making a total of thirteen hundred dollars, all during the year, or nearly fourteen hundred dollars, would that also show the dip in service that you spoke of, immediately following pro- motion? Mr. Carter : Yes, sir, because if that is the practice on the Illinois Central Railroad, they are violating a well established practice on every other railroad, and if I picked out a road, the Illinois Central Railroad, that violates all the practices generally in effect, why, I was very unfortunate in picking^ out such a rail- road. You will understand, that in 90 per cent of the practice that the man is actually promoted and placed on the engineers' extra list, and while he is on the engineers' extra list he does not do any firing; it is only when he is cut off the list that he does firing. Now, if the Illinois Central does not maintain an engi- neers' extra list and have their firemen doing their work, they 670 are doing au injustice to the tiremen. They ought to promote thcni and make engineers of them. Mr. Slieean : I understood this exhibit was of the men who were in fact promoted to become engineers, and was compiled to show the "chrysalis state" I l)elieve you spoke of this morn- ing, intermediate between the regular run and abandoning his run i)ermanently as a fireman. Mr. Carter: When I made that statement I did not have in view any road that is an excei)tion to the rule. Mr. Sheean : The only other one that is on this exhibit that 1 have the details of is form 17, on the next page, page 8. Mr. Carter: I shall make inquiry to find out why, on the Illinois Central Eailroad, they use firemen to run their engines. The Chairman: Will you kindly suspend, Mr. Sheean? We will adjoui-H until 10 o'clock tomorrow mornin"-. (Whereupon, at 5 o'clock P. M., December 8, 1914, an ad- journment was taken until 10 o'clock A. M., December 9, 1914.) 671 IN THE MATTER OF THE ARBITEATION behveen the WESTERN RAILWAYS and BROTHERHOOD OF LOCOMOTIVE ENGINEERS and BROTHERHOOD OF LOCOMOTIVE FIRE-' MEN AND ENGINEMEN under the Act approved July 15, 1913, by ayree- ment dated August 3, 1914. Chicago, Illinois, December 9, 1914. Met, pursuant to adjounnnent, at 10 o'clock A. M. Present: Arbitrators and ])arties as before. W. S. CARTER was recalled for further e.xamination and, having been previously sworn, testiiied as follows : Mr. Sheean: May it please the Board, in yesterday's pro- ceedings Mr. Stone requested that F furnish to him a list of the roads where engineers ])erforming s])ecial service were guaran- teed the amount which they would make "on their regular assign- ments. In pursuance of that request I have prepared a partial list, which gives reference to the schedule ])rovisions from which the statement made yesterday was taken. I will begin with the Southern Pacific Company (Pacific System). Southern Pacific Company (Pacific System). Art. 26. Engineers held at any point for special service will be paid one day's pay at the minimum rate of the division and for service so held for each calendar day on which no service is begun. When held at home terminals, the time to be computed from the time he should have been sent out in his regular turn. Engineers on assigned runs so held shall receive not less than if not held off his run. The Missouri Pacific Railway Company. Art. 20. When an engineer is taken off his regular run to 672 handle an official special, or similar service, and does not make the regular allowance made on his regular run, he will be allowed not less than sitch regular allowance, not including overtime. Northern Pacific Railway Company. Rule 89. Wlien engineers are held for special service from their regular service (regular run, chain gang or extra list) the time so held, to a maximum of ten hours in any twenty-four hour period, will be added to the time or mileage made on the trip. If held and not used they will be allowed ten hours for each twenty-four hour period so held, at rate applying to engine and service in which last used. Engineers so held will he paid not less than they would have earned in their regular service. Cotton Belt Route (St..L. S. W. Ry.). Art. 40. Par. (e). The Company will select such engi- neers for special passenger service, as in its judgment is neces- sary. If the engineer (extra man excepted) selected for such service does not earn as much in the aggregate as he would have earned had he remained on his regular run, he shall be paid for time lost. Great Northern Railway Company, Rule 17. When engineers are held from their runs or serv- ice, their pay until their return to their runs or service shall not be less tlmn it would have been had such interruption to their regular work not occurred. New Orleans, Texas & Mexico R. R. Co. The Beaumont, Sour Lake & Western Ry. Co. The Orange & Northwestern R. R. Co. Sec. 9, Regularly assigned engineers who may be held for special service or runs will be paid the same as they would have made had they remained on their runs, except compensation for special service is greater, in which case the highest rate of pay will be allowed. St. Louis. San Francisco & Texas Ry. Co. Ft. Worth & Rio Grande Ry. Co. Art. 6. Sec. 1. Engineers held for special service at any point (if regularly assigned men), shall be paid for time lost mJ 673 before being used, provided tliat the compensation received is less than on regular run. St. Louis & San Francisco E. E. Co. Art. 7. Sec. 1. Engineers held for special service at any point (if regularly assigned men), shall be paid for time lost before being used, provided that the compensation received is less than on regular run. Other engineers will be paid one day at passenger rate for each twenty-four hours or fraction thereof, provided they would have made other mileage if not so held. San Antonio & Aransas Pass Ry. Co. Art. 19. 1 (a). When an engineer is taken off his regular assigned run for other service, he will be paid for all time or mileage actuaUy lost hy such change. Spokane, Portland & Seattle Ry. Co. Rule 11. When engineers are held from their turn or train for special service on a run, they ivill be paid not less than they ivoidd have received had they remained on their regular run, and, if held at a point to await the return of such train, they will be ]iaid at the same rate while so held. St. Louis, Brownsville & Mexico Railway. Engineers losing time in special service shall be reimbursed for all lost time. Western Pacific Railway. Sec. 15. Engineers handling officers' specials, pay trains, or inspection trains will be paid at passenger rates. If taken off regTilar runs to handle such trains and do not make as much as would have been made on regular runs, they ivill be allowed not less than their regular run would have paid. Canadian Pacific Railway. Art. 15. Engineers held olT on company's business will be paid schedule rates for mileage lost, and extra men will be paid a minimum of one hundred miles for each day of twenty-four hours so held, and will be reimbursed reasonable expenses when away from home. Minneapolis, St. Paul & Sault Ste. Marie Railway. Art. 16. When engineers are assigned to regular runs or 674 enj^nes and are held from such runs or engines for special trains or service they shall he paid for the time lost on their run or evffine. Mr. Stone: If I may ask, and this is digressing from the testimony of the witness — do you know tliat these men that are hehl for this service on these different roads are paid in accord- ance with these agreements you have just read? Ml". Slioean : I have no knowledge. You asked me yester- day to furnish you a reference to any schedule i)ro\dsions. I have no knowledge of the operations on any road, but I assume — I don't know that I have any right to make any assumption because I will say frankl>' T liave no knowledge of any oper- ations. Mr. Stone: What I was wondering was whether they were paid according to this rule or whether it is another switch en- gine case like the Northern Pacific that we have referred to, where it was not paid so as to bring it Ijefore this Arbitration. Take the Minneapolis & St. Paul provision, I would like to call your attention to the reading of the article : ' ' When engineers are assigned to regular runs or engines" — it does not say the great rank and file of men who are perliai)s assigned to neither. The same is true of the Western Pacific where it says, ' ' If taken off regular runs." The great rank and file of men are not on regular runs. The same is true of the Missouri Pacific, where it says, ''When an engineer is taken off his regular run." It is safe to say that 90 per cent of the men are not on regular runs. The same is true of the San Antonio & Aransas Pass. It is a very easy matter to verify that a great joercentage of the men are not assigned on either regular service or assigned runs. I have not had time to cheek it over. I question whether it is of very great importance, one way or the other. Mr. Sheean : In order that there may be no misunderstand- ing, I want to call the Board's attention to the colloquy which took place at page 616 of the record. "Mr. Stone: Coming back to that question of l>eing called for special service. I believe you said that the man was guaran- teed the amount he would make on his run while he was on special service. Can you refer me to any rule in any schedule that guarantees any such thing? 675 "Mr. Carter: 1 have such confidence in counsel for the railroads that when he says a thing is true I liave gotten into the habit of saying yes. I don't know wliother that is true or not. "Mr. Stone: Well, not desiring to question your con- fidence, I should like very much to have counsel for the railroads to sul)mit to me a list of roads where they guarantee that tliat man shall be paid the same as he would make on his run. ' ' Mr. Sheean : A regularly assigned man, was the (luestion, was it not? "Mr. Stone: I think it was a regularly assigned man. ' ' Mr. Sheean : I will try to look it up. ' ' W. S. CARTER was recalled for further examination, and having been previously sworn, testified as follows: Mr. Phillips : If the Board pleases, Mr. Carter desires to make a correction or two iu the record. Mr. Carter: I find on reading that part of testimony re- ported on page 621 of the proceedings of December 8, that my replies to Mr. Nagel were perhaps inaccurate. I think a reading of all of my replies to Mr. Nagel would indicate that there was a failure on my part to concentrate my mind upon the questions asked and the particular correction I want to make is that where Mr. Nagel asked the question and in reply I sav, "I didn't catch that." "Mr. Nagel: Well, you have wages from 65 to 75 or 80 cents an hour in the industrial lines in different parts of this territory. You average them to show what a reasonable wage would be, and in doing it you have to admit that different wages obtain in different parts of this territory, the very condition from which you seek to escape with respect to your own de- mands 'I ' * Mr. Carter : There is no question of that. I think there is an effort on the part of all to standardize. ' ' Mr. Nagel : Is there any reason in your mind why stand- ardization should be insisted upon in reference to locomotive engineers and firemen, when it does not obtain in the usual industrial employments? "Mr. Carter: I think you will find there is an approximate approach to standardization in the list of wages I sliowed you 676 here, witli sliglitly varying latos on account of conditions, but — **Mr. Nagel : Before we go to that, as I remember it, even in tlie large cities, there is a variation anywhere from 65 to 75 cents an hour; isn't that true? "Mr. Garter: I don't recall that. Do you mean between Bohemian unions and Hebrew unions? '*Mr. Nagel : No, the men in a particular employment. "Mr. Carter: I don't think so, not in the same employ- ment. There is that variation between one class of employment and another, yes, sir. For instance, a hod carrier does not get as much as a bricklayer." By referring to i)age i)03 of the proceedings of Deceml)ei- 7 you will note that 1 specifically stated just the facts that Mr. Nagel tried to bring out, but, for some reason, I did not grasp exactly what was meant. By reference to page 503, you will note that 1 do acknowledge that there is a variation of rates, and I want to apologize for my seeming inattention to your inquiry. Mr. Xagel: No ai)ology is needed. Mr. Carter: I did not grasp it somehow or other. Mr. Xagel: I am glad I am not in your place. I would probably be more confused. Mr. Slieean: Mr, Carter, at the time of adjournment last evening we were talking of form 16, as shown on page 6, of your Exhibit No. 8. I think you stated, Mr. Carter, that in the com- pilations based upon this form 16, that the average eainings in every case was only the earnings as engineer. y\v. Carter: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean: So that on form 16, the earnings of R. E. Williams for June, 1912, shown as one dollar, would be carried out in your averages as one man w^orking a full month and earn- ing one dollar as engineer, Mr. (.^arter: As an engineer. Mr. Sheean: As an engineer? Mr. Carter: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean: Now, if, during that month of June, 1912, Mr. R. E. Williams earned $109.46 as fireman, making some one special trip, or being called and not used as an engineer, there- fore drawing one dollar as an engineer, do you think that the deductions which you base on the assumption that his earnings as an engineer were one dollar for the entire month, are sound? 677 Mr. Carter: I think that carries out exactly the iutent of the table with this exception. At the time these deductions were made I did not know that it was the practice on any railroad to have firemen on the highly paid firemen's jobs to protect the engineers' extra board. I was of the opinion that when it ap- peared that engineers were earning some considerable amount, that that was earned as an engineer, but, if you will turn to page 12, I say: ''It will be noted that in forms 16, 17 and 18, many blank lines appear for months after engineers and firemen first performed service as such. In almost every case these blanks in form 16 indicate that the promoted engineers have been demoted or set back, and were then serving as firemen. ' ' Mr. Sheean : Well, Mr. Carter, if the practice which is evi- denced as to the Illinois Central generally obtains upon these railroads, then the deductions which you have made here, are unsound, are tliej not? Mr. Carter: No, sir, I could, not answer that question affirmatively, because to do so is to convey a wrong impression. I Avill say to you that the practice set forth on pages 6 and 7 is not in general practice on the roads. Mr. Sheean: Well, that is on 6 and 7, I understood you to say — Mr. Carter : I meant to say 4 and 5. Mr. Sheean: No, I think it is 6 and 7. Mr. Carter: Six and 7, yes. Mr. Sheean : If, Mr. Carter, it should appear that the total earnings of the men embodied in your form 16 as engineers was, during the period covered by that exhibit, about $3,600,000 while the same men during the same period actually received $5,400,- 000 as firemen, would you still say that that practice was not a common practice on these railroads? Mr. Carter: I would say whatever statements they are, those cover it, because you cover a period. For instance, a fire- man may work from January to June as a fireman and earn a considerable amount of money. He may work from June until December as an engineer and earn a considerable amount of money. Then, if you would make that statement for that entire year, it would be foreign to the intent of this exhibit. Mr. Sheean: If, during the same month that a man draws one dollar as engineer it is found that he drew $109 or $110 as a ()78 fireman. tluMi \v(»iiM llic 'Icductioiis wliicli you liavc drawn ))e sound / Mr. Carter: Xot in that special case, for that would indi- cate tliat that man was a bona fide fireman, not posin^j; as an engineer, but, that in some emerjLjfency lie liad l)een called to ])ro- tect the interests of the comi>any in the absence of any extra ensfineers fn^n that terminal. But, the other cases cited in Form 16 would indicate that instead of maintaining an extra list of enufineers to do r'Hirineeis' woik, tiie eniiineei's are holdinix down the hiirh paid jobs as iiremen, and theiefore the firemen never get a smell of those good jobs. Pioudfit, 1 understand, is back in fieight service, which would indicate that tliere are many other engineers older than he. We will take Pronty and we will take Silver; and if it is a fact that those men are earning the wages shown there while serving as firemen, it is a most nnusual l)rocedure, and one I think very unfair on the one hand to the firemen who are deprived of an opportunity to occupy these higli paid runs, and on the other hand to the hired engineer, who is Avalking the streets, without anything to do, and yet these fire; men are doing the work that he should be doing. Mr. Sheean : You have prepared this table, as I understood it, for the purpose of showing the fluctuations in employment? Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Sheean: If the Huctuations are, simply, that a man on one day is called an engineer, or makes a run as an engi- neer, while on the other twenty-seven days of these tw^o Febru- aries that you have taken, he operates as fireman, the fluctuations would not be fluctuations in earnings, but fluctuations between whether he was designated an engineer part of the month and a fireman another part of the month? Mr. Cart<'r: ll would be the fluctuations in his earnings as an engineer. But for the one case that you have just speci- fied, there \vill be a hundred cases on Form 15 reported by the railroads that are not ai)plicable to the proposition that you have just made. I will say that for one case that you have cited as appearing in the practice on the Chicago Division of the Illinois Central road, there will be a hundred cases, if not five hundred cases, where the men are actually promoted, and are on the engineers' extra list, and it shows all of their earnings 679 as eiigiiieeis. Therefore, 1 would say you are ri^lit to the extent of a ratio of one to one hundred. Mr. Sheean: Now, this exhibit, as 1 understand you — and that was all 1 was cross-examining you about — this exhibit does not purport to show the hundreds of instances, or any i)articu- lar number of instances in which all of the earnings are shown under the heading of earnings aS engineers in the case of pro- moted firemen ? Mr. Carter: In every instance every name that appears on Form 16, as completed by the railroads, is transcril)ed and the deductions are made therefrom. Unfortunately, we did not have two coi)ies. AVe wanted to introduce that as an exhibit, and make it as much a part of this record as we could. I understand the Board lias that, and I am going to make this statement, that where there is one case like you have raised here there are one hundred cases where the promoted man does not make a penny as a fireman. Mr. Sheean : As I said, I am talking about the exhibit. Is there anything from your exhibit by which you can tell whether the figures which you have taken do or do not represent all of the earnings of the promoted fireman who was working as engineer'? Mr. Carter: You simply have to use your judgment. Mr. Sheean: I am asking, whether, from the exhibit, Mr. Carter — Mr. Carter: Do you mean to say from pages 6 and 7"? Mr. Sheean: Or any part of the exhibit. Mr. Carter : Do you mean the exhibit ? Mr. Sheean : Yes. Take your Table 6. Mr. Carter: I will say that Form 16 as here reproduced is only one of several hundred. Unfortunately I took one from a road where they use the high paid jobs of firemen as a basis of operation for their engineers, where they deprive firemen of the right of firing the high paid runs, giving them to engineers, and where, if a hired engineer was demoted, instead of returning him to the extra list, as they should do, they leave the extra engineer to walk the street, where this fireman is doing the work. Mr. Sheean : Now, coming back to the question that I last asked you, are you able to tell, from the Exhibit, or any informa- tion contained in the exhibits, whether, in your Table 9, under the headings "Earnings for months," there set out, you have 680 or have not includod all of the earnings of those men for those months t Mr. Carter : I have not pretended to. I think I specifically- state that when they are set back as firemen it is not included. I will read it again, page 12: *'In almost every instance these blank lines in Form 16 indicate that the promoted engineers have been demoted or set back and are then serving as firemen." Mr. Sheean: Well, taking a particular month's earnings — for the month of February — is there anything in any of the tables by which you can tell whether all of the earnings during that month are embodied in the columns from which your aver- age is made? Mr. Carter: Do you mean in the Forms 15 furnished by the railroads? Mr. Sheean: No, I meant in the tables from which you derive it. Mr. Carter: No, there is nothing in that table, not the Chicago Division of the Illinois Central. Mr. Sheean : I am talking about your general tables. Mr. Carter : Do you mean Form 15, from which it is taken? Mr. Sheean : Yes, and therefore the derivations which you make from that. Mr. Carter: I will say that any man who has a general knowledge of the practice ordinarily followed would determine when a promoted engineer was scheduled as a promoted engineer or as a fireman used only in emergency cases. I think you will find on Form 15, as furnished by all the railroads, there is an indication to anyone who has technical information, and for every case like that found on the Chicago Division of the Illinois Central Eailroad you will find 100 cases where these promoted men's wages, as reported on Form 15, cover every penny they made, and they are not back, firing. Mr. Sheean: Can you tell from this exhibit what part of the exhibit is made up to include all of the earnings during the month, or what proportion of it? Mr. Carter: Not accurately. Mr. Sheean : Now, turning to your Form 15, Mr. Carter, at page 5, 1 note that among the questions asked under 3(b), there was asked: "What proportion of his time, prior to February 1, 1914, has he been employed as an engineer, and what proportion 681 as a fireman, since his first promotion to the i)ositiou of en- gineer?" Was any tabulation or assembling of that data made in any of your tables here? Mr. Carter: No, sir, I think not; but 1 tliiiik tliat answers the question that you have been asking me for a long while, and that I should have answered, and I am obliged to you for calling my attention to that (luestion. It shows that on that seniority district, that this man Krafezik worked twelve months as an engineer and twenty-seven months as a fireman. Now, I think it was the intent of the one who prepared that statement to state that for twelve months he was an engineer and that for twenty- seven months he was a fireman, and I must apologize for over- looking that when you asked me the question. Mr. Sheean: By the way, this Colorado & Southern, Mr. Carter, is in a rather unusual situation, is it not, as to seniority? Mr. Carter: Unfortunately, when I selected these pages at random, I found myself in several unusual situations, when they got into the book. Mr. Sheean: You happened to select, as to the Colorado & Southern, in showing the length of time between first promotion down to date, a road in ^vhich they had abandoned operations on a part of their line in 1911, did you not? Mr. Carter: No, sir, I had no knowledge of that. Mr. Sheean: You happened to select a road on which that is the fact. Mr. Carter: If you say it is the fact, I will accept it as the fact. I don't know anything about it. Mr. Sheean : The length of time here, the age of these men, you do know from the averages which you obtained on other systems, is very much higher, is it not? Mr. Carter: No. I think that the exception of those men who apparently were engineers and w^ere not engineers, such as the men Scneder and Williamson — ^Williamson appears ten years as an engineer, but they say they used him in emergency cases only. Scneder appears four years as an engineer and they used him in emergency cases only. I want to say to you that I never saw that until after it w^as in the book. Mr. Sheean: And you did not know anything about the change in operations on the Colorado & Southern by which a part of their line had been abandoned ? 682 Mr. Charter: No, sir. Ml". Sliceaii: And operations ceased in the latter part of li»ll over that part of the line? Mr. Carter: No, sir. Mr. Sheean: So that engineers in that situation would iro back and <'xereise their seniority as firemen? .Mr. Cartel-: If that is true I did not know it until now. .Mr. Shccaii: Well, under this 3(b), Mr. Carter, the infor- mation there furnished on all the roads, if carried out and tabu- lated, would show about what the average i)ro])ortion of time of these men was, used as engineers, and what as firemen, during this average spread of 3.44 years. Mr. Carter: What table is it that shows that? Mr. Sheean: 1 don't find, Mr. Carter, any table in which there is a carrying out or extension of the information which you assemble under 3(b). Mr. Carter: No, but practically the same thing is assem- bled under 3(a). Mr. Phillips: On ])age 17 you will find the statement. Mr. Carter: No, that is not it. I have a statement in here showing 3.44 years is the average. Mr. Trenholm: Page 32. Mr. Carter: Thank you. By turning to- page 32, you will find the average length of seniority, as an engineer, of the oldest firemen firing on each seniority district, February 1, 1914. Now, that took every man reported, and in order to show the number reported, the first column shows it by railroads, over to page 33. Now, T did not attempt to get an average of the averages there. Mr. Sheean : Now, on that table 6, page 32, Mr. Carter, that table was compiled by taking a named individual who, on the 1st day of February, 1914, was the oldest man on that date firing an engine. Mr. Carter : Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean: So that the average you take is the average of the oldest men on a i)articular date firing an engine? Mr. Carter : Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean: And, after taking the oldest men on all of these railroads and averaging the oldest men, you reach the conclusion shown in that table and state it again on page 17, that that average was ."'.44 vears? 683 Mr. Carter: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean: Now, then, under 3 (b), 1 would like to know whether you did obtain information as to what part of the 3.44 years was put in at firing- and what part as an engineer. Mr. Carter: I did not; but if the Board will permit it, we will recall the exhibits or volumes, and I will have that statement for you within a very short time. Mr. Sheean : I understand that the basic figures are simply here so as to be accessible to the Board or to either of the ])ar- ties, for such purposes as they may be needed. Mr. Carter: My re])ly was predicated upon the under- standing that YOU wanted that information. I will prepare it for you. Mr. Sheean : Tf that can be readily prepared, Mr. Carter, I should like very much to have it. Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Sheean: On page 32, Mr. Carter, Table (>, apparently the greatest length of time or oldest average of the oldest men is the Pierre, Rapid City & Northwestern Railway, 8.08 years? Mr. Carter: Let me see that. That is under the North- western, isn't it? Mr. Sheean : Yes, under the North Western ; l^ierre, Rapid City & Northwestern Railway. Mr. Carter : The Pierre, Raind City & Northwestern Rail- way reported only one man, and liis length of seniority as an engineer was 8.08 years. Mr. Sheean: Do you know liow long that railroad is.' Mr. Carter: I haven't any idea. As I never heard of it up to this moment, I don't think it is very long. Mr. Sheean: And whether or not that man who has been firing out there, that one man they reported, has no seniority rights except on that one division where the engineers have been operating, you do not know ? Mr. Carter: I depended ujion the forms supplied by the railroads, just like you depended a while ago on the rules from the Engineers' schedules. I have not gone behind the returns. Mr. Sheean : All that I wanted to elicit on that, Mr. Carter, was that in getting this average of the oldest man, you took rail- roads, some of which you had nevei heard of before, and in reporting this average, a road of that sort was of just thn same 684 value ill reaching your average and conclusion HvS a Trans- Continental line? Mr. Carter: Because the railroads made a report for that line. U \ had oxoludod it, I would have been falsifying the record. Mr. ISheean: I am only getting at how you reached the average time here, Mr. Carter. That is, you took each railroad here as shown on this page 82, irrespective of its -length, loca- tion or operation, ascertaining the oldest man on that railroad who on that i)articular date was tiring, and treated that as of the same weight as that on a Trans-Continental system? Mr. Carter : In this table, yes ; I segregated this informa- tion by roads, not only b}' roads, but by portions of roads. For instance, take the Atchison, Topeka & Santa Fe, you find seven different reports. Therefore, if there should be some unusual condition of affairs on any one of tlie roads, it would not affect even indirectly the results here shown of all other roads. Mr. Sheean : Mr. Carter, all I meant by that was that on these Trans-Continental lines, take the Atchison, To])eka & Santa Fe, for instance, the first three items there of the average length of the seniority of the oldest engineer, who was on that particular day firing, you have 3.83. Mr. Carter: Not the oldest engineer — yes, the oldest engi- neer who was firing ; yes. Mr. Slieean : 3.83 years, 2.42 years, 2.56 years, 1 .02 years. Mr. Cai^ter: And 5.77. Mr. Sheean: And 5.77; yes. Now, each of those averages is given ecpial value in >our final average with the 8.08 years shown on tlie Pierre, Ra])id City c^' Northwestern Railway? Mr. Carter : Yes, sir. Mr. Sliet'an: And each of those averages on that Trans- Continental line is given the same value as — let ns take the next highest, 7.92 years, shown on the ]Vrineral Range Railroad. Do you ha]i])en to know where the Minerial Range Railroad is, or how long that is and how many men operate on it? Mr. Carter : The Mineral Range, that is under Duluth — Mr. Sheean: Under Duluth, South Shore & Atlantic Rail- way. Mr. Carter: From the fact that they only have one man reported, T would consider it was not a very extensive rail- 685 road, even though I did not have knowledge of that fact other- wise. Mr. Sheean: In getting your final average here of 3.44 years, you totaled the averages shown in that last column? Mr. Carter : Yes. Mr. Sheean: And divided that by the number of railroad systems 1 Mr. Carter: Yes, sir — not the number of railroad systems, but by the number of railroad systems reporting. You will notice that in some columns a circle 1 appears, indicating that there was no report. Mr. Sheean: Whether a railroad system or a division, you counted in that average the Mineral Range Railroad, for instance, as being one divisor, just the same as the Canadian Northern Railway being a divisor? Mr. Carter : I did because the railroads did. If I had done otherwise I would have been changing the record. I want to explain that this subdivision of railroads here is not my work. When these questions were asked, I presume of the highest operating ofificial of the Santa Fe System, apparently he passed the questions along to the managing officers of these subsidiary lines ; and, when these forms came back to us, they came back segregated, and I think it would have been very imptroper on my part to have done that which you think I ought to have done. Mr. Sheean : I am not suggesting what you ought or ought not to have done. I am simply trying to arrive at how these averages were obtained. The responses were made by the rail- road companies of whom you made the request, were they not? Mr. Carter : Yes, and, if the responses of the railroad com- pany are inaccurate, then my derivative tables are inaccurate. Mr. Sheean : Yes, and, if the responses are perfectly accu- rate, you treat, in the average, a railroad which has one engi- neer and one division, as of the same value as a Trans-Conti- nental system? Mr. Carter : Yes, I must necessarily do it. Mr. Sheean: The railroads showed no averages in their returns, did theyf Mr. Carter: No, sir, these averages have all been reached bv mvself. 686 About the Chicago rovision or practice, both with engi- neers and firemen, to be granted leave of absence for a definite period, at their request, and still retain their seniority, is it?") Mr. Carter: Yes; but not as extensive as is shown here. Mr. Sheean: Do you mean it is unusual? Mr. Carter: Pardon me. If your question has reference to what we are now talking about, a man earning $2.64, I will 690 say it is extreuiely unusual; l»ut it' you are referring to cases where ji man lays off ten days or sometliing of tluit kind, it is ^not unusual. Mr. Slieean : i will take tiie rase o\' layinu- oft' six uionths. Ml-. Carter: \'ery unusual. Mr. Slieean: During slack business. Is it not the ])rac- tice on many railroads that, at the request of the men, if they desire to lay otT, even for a i)eriod of six months, they may do so if they want to and retain their seniority, and come back to work again upon that railroad? Mr. Carter: I imagine that is permissible on any railroad, but very unusual. Mr. Sheean: Mr. Charter, in the number of tiremen hired, as shown on Table S at pages 36 and o7, the last column, num- ber of firemen hired since January 1, 1912, if tiremen were hired under the form as you ask to have it sulimitted to the railroad comjiany, if a man were used in an emergency or hired as a fireman, his name would be counted in this total? Mr, Carter : If any man was hired as a fireman, he would be included in this. I say so. 1 think so. I think that was what the railroads did in Form 18. Mr. Sheean: And if, in an emergency, no extra man was available, and, for a single trip, some shop man fired, and ap- peared upon the firemen's payroll, he would also be counted? Mr. Carter : I do not think that would be practicable under the seniority rules on, any railroad, without violating those rules. Mr. Slieean : 1 iiieaii in the information which you re- quested here. Mr. Carter : With my knowledge of the [practices, I would say no, that they would not take a man out of the shop and use him as a fireman one tri}). Tliey might do it tem])orarily. But, he would be a fireman from that tri]). Mr. Sheean: That is what I mean, that under the informa- tion you requested, if any of the railroads did find themselves, where, during this period of time, they had to use men in an emergency to make a single trip, it would go into this grand total? Mr. Carter: If they have, yes. ' Mr. Sheean: And if a man was hired at any time during 691 these twenty-live oi- Iweiity-six iiioiitli jxTJods, and was dropped — Mr. Carter: Disehari^ed. Mr. Slieean: Well, (liscliars»ed, or, as yon say, looked for other emphn'uient, tlioiii>lit lie would like soiii('tliiii,i>: else better, and came back ivj;i\u\ and tried it auaiii, as many times as he tried it and was hired, he would. be counted that many times? Mr. Carter: That was not our intention, if a man's name a]»|)eared twice, we have counted him once. Mr. Sheean : Did you i^o throu,i>ii, to ascertain the names? Mr. Carter : It might be that a man appeared on the Chi- cago & North Western once, and then on the Chicago Great Western, and I will confess I did not cheek that — Mr. Sheean: No. Mr. Carter: But, if any report from any road siiowed the same name twice, our purpose was to count it only once. Mr. Sheean : But there was no effort to ascertain whether or not the same name appeared elsewhere ! Even if you got the same name, it would not necessarily mean that it was the same individual. Mr. Carter : The instructions to those who were preparing the original information was that, whenever the same man's name appears twice, they were to count him as once, and take the collective earnings of the man twice ; that is, we consolidated his name and his earnings and counted him as one man ; but I think it is very seldom that that appears. Mr. Sheean : All I wanted on that was whether you had checked up names to ascertain whether there were duplications. Mr. Carter : Those were the instructions given, and I hon- estly believe that wherever they discovered two names reported on the same sheet, or from the same railroad or subdivision thereof, or seniority district, as they came to us, wherever there were two names that appeared to be the same person, the in- structions were to treat the two names as one and to treat the earnings of both as one. But that was veiy seldom the case, that such a thing was found. Mr. Sheean : In arriving at the averages, Mr. Carter, aver- age earnings, I mean, which you show in some of the tables here — I do not care to distinguish one from the other, but in arriving at the average earnings per month, each month in which any 692 amount was earned, was counted without regard to the number of days that the employe was available, whether he was off part of the month on sick leave, leave of absence or for any other cause, whether he began at an intermediate part of the montli or quit during the month, and the averages were arrived at with- out giving consideration to any of these elements ;' Mr. Carter: I certainly gave consideration to all of those elements, and if we had been permitted to have had two copies of these reports, so that we could have introduced them as exhi])its, it was our purpose to dwell at length upon those ex- liibits, bringing out much of the information you are asking for. I'nfortunately for the present situation, we only had one copy furnished by the railroads. Under the law, we can intro- duce notliing as an exhibit unless we have two copies ; therefore, many of the questions you asked me could be very easily an- swered by simply turning from page to page of these twenty-one volumes. I want to say to you, that I paid no attention to the time of the month the man began or the time of the month he ceased to work for the company, but I presumed that where it was shown that there was continuous earnings during the months intervening between his entering the service and leaving the ser\dce, that he was employed in that service. I did not consider that he might have left the service and entered the service every month. I considered his length of service where his wages appeared, and he remained in the service down the column until there was no entry of wages for him. Those months I used in computing averages ; but I want to say one thing that I did not do, which will offset everything that has been brought out here to rob this exhibit of our estimate of it. If a man appeared as working in January, February, March, April, May and June, did not work in July and August, and worked in September, October, November and December, we know, or think we know, that that man practically had nothing to do when he was cut off the list. Instead of dividing the total earnings of that column by twelve, wiiich would have been fair to him, to avoid any semblance of exaggeration, we only added the number of months tliat he actually worked. If we had in estimating his earnings added the months that he did not earn anything, it would have bpen nmch lower than shown here. ^^r. Sheean: In arriving at your divisor, you carried it ■ I II 693 do\^ii to the point, as shown on the Illinois Central Exhibit, where you found one dollar earned in a month, and averaged it down to that extent. Mr. Carter : Wherever it appeared that a man worked as an engineer, promoted engineer, or as a fireman, we added that in. Mr. Sheean: But where you had no earnings whatever in a month, and no knowledge or information as to whether the man was on that road or not, whether he was available or not, you did not include the months where there was no amount of money in striking your average ? Mr. Carter: We understood that he was available, and in my judgment he was, but there was no work for him. In order not to exaggerate the conclusions reached in here, we did not use that in the number of months in which we divided the earnings. Mr. Sheean: You say your information was that he was available. What was that information on which you base that statement? Mr. Carter : General knowledge of the conditions, the im- mense correspondence that reaches our office from these very men who are asking me if I know where they can get a job. Mr. Sheean: Well, now% Mr. Carter, let us take one of the men here as shown in this exhibit with whom you have had that correspondence during any part of that time, and just give us that one individual. Mr. Carter: I can not without going to Peoria to get the records. I will say we have abundance of evidence, and, if the Board please, I would suggest that we take up the time of the Board in putting on as many witnesses as may be necessary, and the Board will say when they are tired, showing the distress of these men, whose time I did not get. Mr. Sheean: Mr. Carter, in making the average, what you did, was to take any man, wherever any man was shown in a month, count that month as a month and that man as available for the entire month. Mr. Carter: It is my opinion, professionally, if you like, that when a man is cut off the list on account of depression in business, a fireman, that he is not only available, but he is beg- ging for the permission to work. 694 Mr. Slifcaii: l^'iid the (|iiesti()ii. (Question lead, as above I'cconlcd.) My. < 'alter: \'('S, sir. 1 uiulcrstand tlicic arc cxccplioiis. A Tiiaii iiiiulit (Vw and lie would hardly be availablt* after tliat. Mr. Slict'aii: Voii have no knowledge or information as to whether men hiid off of their own accord dniinu- any ])art of tlie time .' Mr. Carter: Where men, particularly liremen, are r<'(iuired to lire lieaA'y freiylits, they lind it absolutely necessary to lay off re])eatedly, on the larger engines. I think you Avill tind that it would be iin|:)ossi])le foi- a lirenian on one of these large freight engines, with the tonnage that belongs w^ith the engine, to follow that engine as many miles as he w^ould on one of the smaller engines, therefore, that man must lay oft' and does lay ofl", to recu|)erate, in order to be able to fire the engine. ^Ir. Slieean: And that, you think, obtains through these tables ai)plicable to these extra lists. Mr. Carter: 1 think you will find that most of the firemen that lay off do lay off for rest, and that should apiily to engineers, too. Mr. Sheean: And, that api)liesto these tables, also, does it; the tables of this particular exhibit, that, in the months where you showed the earnings, there were lay-ofiPs of the men at their request ? Mr. Carter: No question of it. Mr. Sheean: But, what those lay-oft's amounted to or how many days of a i)articular month they were available, you have no knowledge or infonnation? ^Ir. Carter: Xo, sir; except a general knowledge. Mr. Sheean: Now, in arriving at the monthly earnings, you took two mouths of J''el)ruary, a month of June and a month of October, did you not? Mr. Carter: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean: I think you said that the month of June was ordinarily tlie liirlit month in operation and October the high one. Ml". Carter: Ordinarily, according to my judgment, before the crop begins to move, the farm products, there is a low- tide of the movement of trains; w'hile, in October, when wheat, corn and cotton and other agi'icultural products are moving, there is 695 a general increase in business. 1 would say that, in my judg- ment, taking the agricultuiai states in consideration, that Octo- ber would be one of the months where there was more work for men than any other month. Ordinarily, .June ought to be, unless there is something unusual that occurs, the low month. Febru- ary, how^ever, is shown in this table as also being a low month. Mr. Sheean: Both a low month and a short month in days. Mr. Carter: Perhaps that has something to do with the amount of business; a 28-day month would be considerably less than a 31 -day month. Mr. iSheean: There are again, in and about the different periods of the year, certain activities on certain roads, at a ]iart of the yeai-, that there are not on others. Mr. Carter: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean: And, in this Form No. 17, at page 8, in which the return of the Canadian Northern Railway is set forth, it is a usual condition upon Canadian roads that, in October, November and December, the movement of wheat makes that a verv busv season for those roads, does it not? Mr. Carter: No, I think not. I mean to say I think the navigation has closed on the lakes, so as not to include December traffic. Maybe I am mistaken. Mr. Sheean: When does the heavy wheat movement ordi- narily begin up there? Mr. Carter: I am not personally acquainted. I imagine the wheat is heaviest, the heavy movement of wheat to lake ports ceases with the closing of navigation, and then it is diverted by rail, perhaps, to sea ports like Montreal. I won't state that, but that is a guess, Mr. Sheean: All J wanted is the fact that there are sea- sonal conditions which affect the volume of traffic on certain roads. Mr. Carter: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean : And make necessary the em])loyment of larger numbers of crews during a short period of the year, than tind employment during the remainder of the year? Mr. Carter: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean : And. during that i)eriod of time, if the road has seniority rules, whereby they do not hire engineers from the outside but promote firemen, there will be ])romoted and de- 696 tailed as engineers, during the months of heavy business, cer- tain engineers for wliom there is no employment on tliat road except during those months of heavy traffic. Mr. Carter : That is true. Mr. Sheean : Now, on those roads, the giving to the engi- neers temi)orarily ])romoted to take care of this heavy seasonal traffic, the riglit to droj) l)ack and to retain their rights as fire- men during the lighter seasons, is the growtli and development of the requests of the men, is it not? Mr. Carter : So far as the promoted engineer is concerned, there is no question but what that is the policy desired by the men. Mr. Sheean: And, in that situation, the men who, during the three months of activity, would operate as engineers, would, during the remainder of the year, drop back and hold their posi- tions as firemen? Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Sheean: That exi)ansion, during certain seasons of the 5'ear, is general to many roads, is it not? T don't mean the same period of time, but there are periods of greater activity on almost all of the roads in the western territorv than at other seasons of the year. Mr. Carter: I think you will find that fluctuation in the railroad l)usiness is usual, and, for the purpose of bringing out the fluctuations in the railroad business, and the effect on the men, this exhibit was compiled. We had knowledge that there were such fluctuations when we got up this exhibit. Mr. Sheean: This fluctuation and the dropping back through eight or nine months of the year to the ])ositiou of fireman, is something that the men have insisted upon, and has been the result of dealings between the roads severally and their respective men, has it not, as to just how this expansion, during certain seasons, should be taken care of? Mr. Carter: T think the way you started your question out would indicate that these fluctuations were their desire? Mr. Sheean: No. Mr. Carter : You mean the demotion of the men ? Mr. Sheean : The manner of handling their business dur- ing the few months of unusual expansion, which the railroads may anticipate ; the manner of taking care of that traffic during 697 that period, is the result of iiei>'otiatioiis betwe<'n the men and the railroads severally. Mr. Carter: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean: Mr. Carter, will you turn to i)a,^:e IG of your exhibit, please. I am not sure that 1 understand just how you arrived at the figures given opposite the lines, ''Number of engineers (promoted)," "Number of engineers (hired)," "Number of liremen," as extended in these several months. Mr. Carter : I think, if I remember aright, they are simply the footings of Tables 3, 4 and 5. Mr. Sheean : Well, how did you get at tiie number of engi- neers promoted February, 1913? Mr. Carter : Do you mean the men wlio were ])r()moted in February, 1914? Mr. Sheean : I am not sure I understand. Mr. Carter: No, that is not the intent. This shows the number of men who have been promoted since January 1, 1912, who worked in the month of February, 1913 ; and the reason that I only reported them is because those were the only men shown in Forms 15, 16, 17 and 18. Mr. Sheean : Now, Mr. Carter, I think that I understand. That was what I w^as not clear about. Should not that line then — I am not criticising the abbreviation of it — when you extend it, when you extended that line, following up page 17, number of engineers promoted, it means, does it not, number of engineers promoted since January 1, 1912, who. in the month of February, 1913, were working as engineers? Mr. Carter: Yes; and if you will turn back to page 5, I think that idea is communicated. This being a derivative table, or a summary of tables, I did not repeat it there. You will notice I very carefully i)laced the word "promoted" in paren- theses. If I had intended to convey the idea that they were pro- moted that month, I would have said that they were promoted, without the i^arentheses. Mr. Sheean: That is, if I understand correctly, in the month of February, 1913, there were working as engineers 2,154 men who had been promoted since January, 1912? Mr. Carter: January 1, 1912. The same applies to the number of hired engineers and the number of firemen. You will understand that all that appears in this exhibit is based upon 698 forms furnished by the raihoads, and there is nothing in the forms furnished l)y the railroads that has to do with any em- ploye exempt those i)romoted or hired since January 1, 1912. Mr. Sheean: That is all, Mr. Carter. RKDIRFAT EXAMINATION. Mr. l*hillii>s: Mr. Carter, you were asked if arrangements for demotion in ease of fluctuation of business were not made to suit the wishes of tlie men. I believe you answered, in substance, that tlijit was true. Admitting that such is the case, does not the fact still remain that there are great fluctuations? Mr. Carter: There are great fluctuations, and it was for the pnrpose of communicating the intensity of these fluctuations, that this book was pre])ared, and I might say that the original questions asked of the railroads, answers to which were fur- nished on forms completed by the railroads, were for the pur- pose of offsetting an argument, made in all previous negotiations of this character, that the employment of railroad employes was permanent, and therefore could not be compared with the wages of employes in other industries where it was not permanent. I had heard that so many times, used in several arbitrations, that I concluded to find out whether it was permanent or not, and this is the result. Mr. Phillips: You do not understand, then, Mr. Carter, from your rei>orts, that a fireman entering the service of a rail- road company as a fireman, or an engineer entering the service of a railroad company as a hired engineer, becomes a full paid worker immediately upon accepting or securing employment. Mr. Carter: I think the records will show that a man with a family to support, taking employment either as a fire- man or as a hired engineer, ordinarily is to be pitied, on account of these fluctuations in traffic. Mr. Stone. Mr. Carter, I wish you would take yesterday's proceedings and turn to page 617. A question that Mr. Nagel asked you; down about the middle of the page you will find a question regarding the uncertainty or irregularity of employ- ment of engineers and firemen, and whether or not they could l)e fairly compared as to the uncertainty which obtains with other industrial wage earners. Mr. Carter: Will you quote the question? 699 Mr. Stone: Mr. Nagel asked tlie folUnving question: **Do you think that the uncertainty or irregularity of em- ployment, in the case of engineers and firemen, can be fairly compared to the uncertainty which o])tains in the case of indus- trial wage earners!" In any of the industrial trades, outside of the railroads, do you know of any rigid discipline being enforced for a slight infraction of the rules? Mr. Carter: Xo. I have often had that in mind and dis- cussed it with employes in other industries, and I think you mil find — I have discussed it particularly with officers of other indus- tries, and to them it seems incredible that a man might serve ten, fifteen or twenty years for one employer and then, because of a mistake, he is practically deprived of ever earning any more money at his chosen trade. I have discussed that with the president of the Brotherhood of Carpenters, and he tells me that while a carpenter who, through a mistake or incompetency, perhaps, destroys material, that it is not unusual for him to be discharged, if his offenses are of grave character or repeated; but that is not held against the man if he should go anywhere else for employment. It is true that, if he had a reputation of being a poor carpenter, he would have a hard time keeping a job ; but the fact that he had made a mistake or was dismissed by one carpenter would not work against him at all in getting a job with another employer as a carpenter. Mr. Stone: In other words, if a man was discliaigcd in one of the industrial trades, when he went over to get a job on a building in the next block he Avould not have to give a reference from his former employer, would he ? Mr. Carter: Well, I don't know whether that is true or not; but, I do know, from my observation, that the same car]»en- ters usually do all the carpenter work in the same town, year after year. Sometimes, if business gets very bad, they go to other towns; but you do not find them digging ditches or doing something else because one employing carpenter has dismissed them for making a mistake. Mr. Stone: And he could not get a job at his trade else- where? 700 Mr. Carter: No. Mr. Stone: Do you know of any of the industrial trades wiiere, if a man takes a leave of absence for thirty days or dur- ing depression of business he is out of Avork for thirty days, he will have to take a physical examination when he gets work before he can begin his duties! Mr. Carter: Perhaps I may be mistaken, but 1 do not call to mind that these physical examinations are required when they first enter the service, and, I am quite sure if they took one at first, they would not be required to undergo another examination. Mr. Stone: Do you know of any of these industrial trades where there is an age limit which prevents a man securing other similar employment in case he loses his position? Mr. Carter: I am quite sure, in the average industry, there is a disi)osition to ditch the old men, but, it is not so pronounced as it is in the railroad industry, for this reason. I understand that the railroads have adopted a rule among themselves that men of over a certain age will not be employed. AVhile I am quite sure there is no such rule in other industries, I understand that there is a necessity, according to their contention, for this rule by the railroads in order to j^rotect their so-called pension fund. Ml-. Stone: You say you understand. Don't you know it to be a fact that thev have these regulations regarding the age limit? ]\Ir. Carti-r: 1 understand so. I never saw them, but I have heard it so often that I know it is true. I think, as I have stated here, that the employment and earnings of railroad locomotive engineers and firemen is more precarious than that of ;uiy other industry of which I have knowledge. The Chairman: Is there an age limit for tho retirement of engineers ? Mr. Carter: No, sir, I am (juite sure there is not, and I am quite sure it is the seniority rule that prevents it. The Chairman: At Avhat age do they usually retire from emi)loyment ? Mr. Park: ()5, on the Illinois Central. Mr. Stone: Is it not a fact, Mr. Cartel", tliat thry nr*' re- quired to retire at that age ? Mr. Carter: I have heard so. ■ ■ *9 ..^J 701 Mr. Byram: That is where they have a pension system. Mr. Park : For the information of the Board, on the Illinois Central, on the pension system, an engineer may retire between 65 and 70. He may be retired between 65 and 70. It is optional with him or with the company. Mr. Carter: I so understand. Mr. Park: But, it is obligatory at 70. The Chairman: Any provision made for him after that? Mr. Park: He will get a jDercentage of the average salary for the last ten years based on the number of years he has been employed in the service in any capacity, wiper, fireman, engineer, or whatever it may have been. If forty years, it would be forty per cent of his average for the last ten years. Mr. Stone: I might say that that is one reason why a man is anxious, a senior man is anxious to pile up his big earnings the last few years, because, on those roads that do have a pension, the pension is based on his average yearly earnings of the last ten years; therefore, he is anxious to make as many trips and lay oil' as little as possible, is that not correct? Mr. Park: That is true. I had an engineer sa}^ to me the other day: "I am not taking my usual vacation. I am in the last ten-year period of my i^ension, and I am going to work every day that I can." Mr. Stone: It might also be interesting, along that line, to have a statement from the other side with regard to the number of roads who do pay i^ensions, and you will find them very few, and, also, have a statement in regard to the number of roads that liave a so-called voluntary relief association — that is, voluntary in name only, you had better belong if you want to get along — and, also, the roads that have the so-called hospital fund that you must carry if you want to work. I think that information would be a splendid thing for the Board to have. It would show to tlie Board that a man is not allowed to get all the money he really earns. They take out part of it, the first thing, for their share. A member of 3'Our Board, Mr. Byram, can no doubt sup- ply that information for the Burlington. Mr. Park: I would be very glad to furnish you with the pension system of the Illinois Central, and the rules and regula- tions of the hospital department. Mr. Stone: I would also like to have furnished to the 702 Board, wliile we are on tliat same siil)ject, if you will pardon the digression again — I wonld like to have each railroad furnish the age limit, beyond wliieh they will not hire lirenien, and beyond which they will not hire engineers, that is, on those roads that do hire engineers. There are roads in the Western conntry that never hire engineers. They occasionally rlischarge one, bnt they never hire anyone. The Chairman: That is the information that I sought a while ago, when I asked the Hi-st (|uestion. Mr, Park: 1 think tlie general ])roi)osition is that some railroads do not employ new men over 35 or old lucii over 45; that is, men of experience. Mr. Stone: Pardon iiic again, but is it not a fact that, on many of the roads, they will not hire a fireman beyond 28 years? Mr. Park: I have no personal knowledge of any limit ex- cept that of 35. Mr. Stone: One of the gentlemen in the rear, from the Great Northern, says the (Jreat Northern limit is 27 for firemen. I thought it was somewhere in the neighl)orhood of 27 or 28. Tf > on are beyond the age of 28 they will not hire you. If I wanted a position as engineei-, because I have white hair, although 1 am only 53 years old, there would not be any of the roads in Western territory which would em])loy me if I was looking for a job. Mr. Park : (.)h, yes, we would em]ilo>- you : Imt you would not be eligible to the ])ension fund. Mr, Stone: 1 can bring in man after man, gentlemen, if it is necessary to prove to you, that they will tell you first — when you ask for a position the first thing they look at is your age, and, if you are over 35 years of age, they will tell you that you need not fill out the blank because they will not consider it. With some of the roads it is 42, other roads it is 40, some of these AVest(^rn roads the age limit is 35. Tf you get beyond that age you don't need to fill out an a])i)lication, because it will not be considered. Coming back to this table — Mr. Carter: What table is that? Mr. Stone: The table showing the earnings the man made as an engineer. Von have only one table there that shows these earnings by months. This table doesn't ])urport to show any- thing but what a man earned as an engineer during those 703 months. For exanipk', if a man was cut oif the board and went out harvesting to earn a living- for his family, this tables does not show it? Mr. Carter: No, sir. Mr. Stone : H he went to work at any other labor outside of railroad work, this table would not show anvthino- of that kind at all? Mr. Carter: No, sir. Mr. Stone: That is all. Mr. Park: Mr. Carter, you mentioned, 1 think at least twice, that you would be willing to enter into a profit sharing proposition if you could manage the railroads? Mr. Carter: Yes, sir. Mr. Park: Do I gather from that, that the tiremen could manage the railroads better than they are managed now? Mr. Carter: I believe, if the employes had jurisdiction over the financial affairs, that the money would be spent differ- ently. Mr. Park: Isn't it a fact, Mr. Carter, that such men as Mr. Eipley, Mr. Gardner, Mr. Markham and Mr. Bush were clerks at one time, and that such men as Mr. Earling and Mr. Mohler were telegraph operators ; and such men as Mr. Aishton and Mr. Smith were bridge carpenters; and, isn't it a fact that nearly all of the presidents and managing officials did start as firemen or machinists or clerks or operators or agents? Do you think that the firemen, without any experience, or with the experience that they have had, would be more com])etent to run these railroads, and run them more fairly than — Mr. Carter : If we owned the railroads we would hire Mr. Earling, but we would tell him what to do with our money. We believe the men who are operating these roads now have the highest degree of managerial efficiency; but the me^ who tell them what to do are not employes. To my mind, I know, if we owned the railroads, we would like these men in exactly the same positions they now occupy; or, to explain it differently, if the government owned the railroads, I truly think that men who have demonstrated their high ability for man- agerial efficiency would be still employed by the government. They could not help it ; they would have to, and pay them just as good salaries. 704 Mr. Park: On governinont-owiied railroads, where rates are two or three times higher than they are on the railroads in the United States, do the firemen and engineers get more pay and do they have better working conditions'? Mr. Carter: I do not know of any government-owned rail- road in the United States. There may be one. Mr. Park : The Panama Railroad is owned by the govern- ment, is it not? Mr. Carter: I rather think that the Panama Railroad has been operated by engineers and firemen; or, rather, engineers and conductors from this country, and they have paid even as high, if not a higher rate, I think you will find — that is, the officers and railroad men, managing officers sent there, are usu- ally paid a compensatory rate, except when they use army of- ficers, and they very seldom pay army officers as high wages as men in industrial life. I think when Mr. Shonts went there first — Am I right, was it Mr. Shonts that first went there? Mr. Park: Wallace. Mr. Carter : When Mr. Wallace went there I think the rec- ords will show that they paid him at least a fair salary. I think when Mr. Shonts went there the government paid him a fair salary ; but whenever the Army Department, or whatever it was, took over the road, I am quite sure that the officers of the United State Army did not get as high salaries as were paid to their predecessors, or would have been paid the same men in other industries. Mr. Park : Isn 't it a fact that, under the government own- ership of the Panama Railroad, no organization of the engineers and firemen was permitted? Mr. Carter: No, I think not. We have been accused the other way. We have been accused of trying to interfere with the operation of the road ; but I want to say here, speaking for the engineers particularly, that all we did down there was, we tried to get the laws of the United States extended to the Panama Canal. j\Ir. Park: You have some knowledge, then, of the employ- ment of engineers and firemen there. Were they not subjected to a rigid physical examination? Mr. Carter: I think you will find they were subjected to m . ft^MB 705 the same physical examination they would have been on any other railroad. Mr. Park : If incapacitated for any reason they were per- emptorily put out of the service without any pension compen- sation I Mr. Carter: Without specific knowledge of the subject, I would say yes. Mr. Park: That is all. Mr. Stone: I would like to ask one more question, if I may. In the government-owned railroad that you are taking, you would recommend, of course, these high operating officials, but do you think the government would hire some of these finan- cial pirates who have been exploiting some of these western railroads ? Mr. Carter : I am not a competent witness. I don 't think the Chicago & Alton Eailroad would have been wrecked, as it was, and many other railroads. Mr. Park: Is it not a fact that the capitalization of the Panama Railroad has been raised since the government took it .over from about $60,000 a mile to $250,000? Mr. Carter : I do not know that. It may be. Mr. Nagel : Mr. Carter, do you believe that, if the govern- ment took over the roads, compensation would be continued at the rates which now obtain, or be raised or lowered? Mr. Carter: Prefacing my reply with the expression of opinion that I hope the government will not take over the rail- roads, I mil say that I believe that our men would be on an eight-hour day and would be compensated in some manner not now appearing, should they be required to work over eight hours a day. I think that civil service would apply, which would be practically a substitution for our seniority rule; in fact, I don't think our seniority rule w^ould be interfered with, and I think, perhaps, that taking the railroad men in all ranks, it would be a great godsend to them. I mean to say, section men and the clerks in the offices and such as that, but, as it applies to the organized crafts, I doubt very much that it would be to their advantage to have the government take over the railroads. Mr. Nagel : What is the highest salary paid by the govern- ment, excepting the President and Vice-President? Mr. Carter: I don't know, I must confess. 706 Mr. Na^^cl: Well, excepting the President aud the Vice- President and the Justices of the Supreme Court, do you recall any salary over $12,000? Mr. Carter: No, sir, I do not, except a man wlio may be employed for some special commission. Mr. Nagel : I am speaking of the regular salaries. ^Ir. Carter: No, I do not. Mr. Nagel: "What do you think bureau chiefs get! Mr. Carter: I don't know. Mr, Nagel: $5,000 is quite a considerable salary, isn't it? Even assistant secretaries don't get more than that. Mr. Carter: I think, from the information I get, that they are very well paid. Mr. Nagel: When you go below the chief of bureau, $2,000 is quite an unusual salary, isn't it? Mr. Carter: I don't know. ^[r. Nagel: I think you will find it so. When you come to the clerks, $1500 and $1800 salaries are regarded as very good compensations. Mr. Carter: I know, but I think it would be a pleasant dream for the average railroad clerk to get one of those clerk- ships. Mr. Park: Mr. Nagel, isn't that the maximum? Mr. Nagel: I am speaking of good salaries. I merely wanted to indicate that the government is hardly offering much encouragement in the line of high salaries. With respect to hours, a subject upon which you dwelt, the situation is entirely different. Mr. Carter: I think that is accurate so far as it refers to salaried positions; but, I think you will find that, when it comes to the mechanical trades, or, if they have got a ditch to dig. if they have got a ship to build, or, if they have got a gun to make, you will find that they pay equally as high wages to boiler makers, machinists and ditch diggers as do other industries, and at the same time they are working an eight-hour day. ^Ir. Nagel: Then, that would present the question within which class you would come? Mr. Carter: We would not be clerks nor salaried men. We woiild be paid for what we earned. Mr. Nagel : You might be compared with some of the scieu 707 tific bureaus where salaries are very low. I have known men to receive a thousand dollars a year, and get five thousand dol- lars on the day when they walked out. Mr. Carter: I know, it is a shame, I know that. Mr. Park: I would like to ask Mr. Nagel if you have knowl- edge of the minimum wages in the departments for clerks? Mr. Nagel : I have an impression. The minimum wage, of course, is extremely low, as low as $600 and $900, and $1,000. Mr. Carter: I don't want you to think that the reason I am opposed to government ownership is that I might be out of a job, but I think you will find that engineers, firemen, conductors and trainmen believe that their interests are best served by pres- ent methods, rather than government ownership. My remarks apply to those classes of railroad employes who have never been able to help themselves. It will require the government to help them if they are to be helped at all. Mr. Nagel: I was trying to prevent a misconception of those averages. Is it not true that a mistake made by an en- gineer or a fireman is a much more grave matter tlian a mistake made by a carpenter or hod carrier? Mr. Carter: There is no question about that. Mr. Nagel: In one case a plank or a board may be spoiled, and in the other case a train may be wrecked? Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Nagel: That fixes the responsibility of the engineer and fireman, which you name as one of the chief grounds for a wage increase? Mr. Carter: We recognize that. Mr. Nagel: So it is difficult to institute comparisons be- tween those occupations? Mr. Carter: We recognize that it is right that engineers and firemen should be held responsible, and that their discipline should be far more exacting than that of a bricklayer, or a hod carrier, or a carpenter. Mr. Nagel : And that is the ground which you allege for a raise? Mr. Carter : One of the grounds. We have several. Mr. Nagel : I asked you yesterday whether you could not state a reason in favor of the standardization of the wages of 708 engineers and lii(?inen in your entire territory, whieli would not obtain in the case of private employment? Mr. Carter: Railroads are not limited in their operations to one locality. For instance, the Santa Fe Railroad, leaving Chicago, goes to the Pacilic Coast in one direction, goes to the Gnlf Coast in another direction, perhaps intersecting, for a guess, twelve or fourteen states. i mention the Santa Fe Road without any special reason for selecting it. The same would apply to the Chicago & North Western, the Chicago, Milwaukee & St. Paul, the Rock Island, or any other road. We believe that each one of these roads should pay the same rate to the engineers and tiremen where the same class of service is performed. That is, if a Consoli- dation engine, weighing 200,000 pounds on drivers, out of Chi- cago gets a certain amount of money, on that same engine the engineer out of Los Angeles, or out of any other town, should receive the same. We do make this exception, that in the moun- tain districts, where the grade is 1.8 per cent, there should be a ditferential ]iaid; but otherwise we think there should be a standardization of rates ; and the reason Ave think so is because we have abandoned, I think with the consent of the railroads themselves, the individual wage bargain, and have now adopted a concerted w^age bargain. Now, having adopted a concerted wage bargain, it will only be through this concerted wage bar- gain that we can get a standardization of wages. Under the old plan it might have been said to us, ''AVhy, if the Atchison, Topeka & Santa Fe does not pay you as much money for a given work as does the C. B. & Q., why do not the men on the Atchison, Topeka & Santa Fe get busy?" That was the railroad expression. Now, there was a time when they could get busy, when they could negotiate with their officials, or coerce their officials to pay them as much money as the C. B. & Q. paid ; but when they abandoned the individual bargain — and the railroads apparently with the consent of the managers have drifted into the collective bargain— then the men employed on the Santa Fe road lost their opportunity to bring the wages up to the C. B. & Q., and must bring u]i their wages by this kind of a proceeding. Mr. Nagel: Now, you stated the reason, that in private business each locality governs all the conditions that would go 709 to make the rate, whereas in the railroad business one system may extend through the whole territory. Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Nagel: That is one reason? Mr. Carter: Yes, that is one reason. Mr. Nagel: Is there not a further reason to be found in the fact that a common carrier is a quasi-public corporation, and is subject to government regidation with respect to the rates which it may charge, which are fairly standardized, and which may therefore justify a standardization of wages, which in a measure are dependent upon the rates received? Mr. Carter : Yes, and I will say that in nearly everything except wages matters have been standardized for railroads. The Master Car Builders' Association have practically stand- ardized evervthing mechanical. The Master Mechanics' Asso- ciation have standardized all things perhaps as nearly as they can, and I think you will find there is a strong desire to stand- ardize wages. I think Mr. Park has made that statement in the past, perhaps. Mr. Nagel : I was trying to distinguish between the desire and the reason for it. Mr. Carter: I think I have a quotation from Mr. Park himself, where he said he believed there should be a standardi- zation of rates of wages, and rules of discipline. The Chairman: Are government clerks as a general rule satisfied with the salaries they are now receiving? Mr. Carter : No, sir, I do not think they are. They are all struggling for an increase. But I mean this, Mr. Chairman, that I do not know of clerks in any other industry — ordinary clerks, I mean — who would not be glad to accept employment at Washington with the government. Mr. Park: You have no figures, Mr. Carter, showing the relative pay of clerks, say, in Marshall Field «& Company and the other large department stores and industries as compared with railway clerks? Mr. Carter: I do not know what their bookkeepers re- ceive, and when I make the statement I am about to make, I do not mean Marshall Field & Company ; but I understand the pay that girls receive usually in these department stores has almost resulted in scandal. 710 Mr. raik: TIk'H you do not know tliat the wages of the clerks in the industries and stores are higher than those paid by tlio railroads? Mr. Carter: J am (|nite sure they are. For instance, I can not get a good stenogra])her— I say a good stenograi)her, an expert male stenograplier — for less than $125 or $100 at the very least, and I have tried hard. 1 have sought stenographers of that character, and I understand that a stenographer working in a railroad office seldom gets that much. Mr. Park: 1 hoj^e Mr. Hagerty does not put in the paper the statement that you want a stenograplier for $140 a month. I think vou would have a good many applications. Mr." Carter: Did I say $140? I thought I said $125. I. want to say to you that we pay $125, and are glad to pay it, in order to get the services required, and we sometimes have great difficulty in getting the service for that money. Mr. Park: Is it not a fact, Mr. Carter, that the wages of clerks are raised according to individual capacity, that they are not all given a blanket raise, but one .clerk may develop the faculty for increased responsibility, and that is recognized, and he may be advanced and go around other clerks older in the service? Could you apply strict seniority to that kind of w^ork? Mr. Carter: I think perhaps it could not be strict, but seniority could be applied, and I am quite sure that those clerks who are overlooked, seriously think that they have been over- looked unjustly. Mr. Park: 1 have in mind a personal friend of mine who has a very good position in your office, and I think there are other men there who are older in the service than he is, who are not as well i)aid. Do you have seniority in the office of the Brotherhood of Locomotive Firemen and Enginemen? Mr. Carter: Mr. Donehower, who is one of our most effi- cient clerks, and I think one of your best friends, has been in the office, I think, sin,ce 1895, and he has been advanced, and he is now receiving next to the highest rate of pay paid in that office. The only man receiving a higher rate is Mr. Bennet, who is chief clerk, and he has been there I think since 1887. Mr. Park: Mr. Donehowor then has developed a capacitj'^ for increased responsibility which entitles him to more pay than some of the other clerks who mav be older in the service? 711 Mr. Carter; Well, he always had. I mean to say that Mr. Donehower is an exceptionally studious man. He is a man who tries to fit himself at all times for any work to which we assign him. Mr. Park: We have in the railroads a great many clerks of that character, and they usually go ahead of the others. We have clerks who get $1800 and $2000 and $2500, and I guess $3000. I think the railroads pay their clerks better than the government does. I do not think there is any question about that. Mr. Shea: Mr. Carter, I was going to ask you about Mr. Donehower. Does he not rank second on the seniority list? Mr. Carter: He is the next to the oldest man on the senior- ity list in our office. Mr. Shea: And he is paid accordingly, is he not? Mr. Carter: He has been advanced almost exactly in his seniority order. Mr. Park : But you do not apply seniority in the office ? Mr. Carter: Well, nearly so. If a man is capable, he is advanced. We can not advance a clerk who is not an expert stenographer, to a position as an expert stenographer. Mr. Park: But you have no organization in your office that compels you to advance by seniority? Mr. Carter: No, but vou will find that senioritv has been very closely adhered to. Mr. Park: That is the natural thing to do, all things being equal. Mr. Carter: I think it is. I think the government tries to do that under its Civil Service. Mr. Park : I do not know about the government. Mr. Carter: I think you will find that they favor the old clerks. Mr. Burgess: Is it not a fact that the conductors and train- men in the western country have a standard rate ? Mr. Carter: I understand that so far as the wages of con- ductors and trainmen are concerned, they have already accom- plished what we have tried to accomplish here. Mr. Burgess: That applies on all the railroads that are in this particular movement? Mr. Carter: T will not positively so state, but it is my 712 opinion tliat there is practically a standardization of the pay of conductors and trainmen. I understand there are some excep- tions, but there is an almost complete standardization. Mr. Burgess: That is all I wish to ask. Mr. Sheean: Mr. Carter, by standardization, you mean the adoption both of a uniform rate and of a uniform base to which to apply it? Mr. Carter: I presume so. Mr. Sheean : I think we went into the question of stand- ardization one day here. A mere rate, unless applied to a uni- form base, which measures uniformly the day and everything that pertains to it, would not bring about uniformity in com- pensation. Mr. Carter : It would bring about uniformity in rates. It would then require another movement like this to bring about uniformity in rules. Mr. Sheean: Applying simply uniformity in rates, unless the base to which it was applied was uniform, would not cause the same money to be paid by the railroad company to its em- ployes that another railroad company might pay to its employes for the same service? Mr. Carter: For the same service, exactly the same; but the other company may pay for service that this railroad com- pany does not pay for, and therefore a man's earnings would be increased. Mr. Sheean : Where there is a reservation, as there is here, whereby an engine for instance which now takes a rate, because of size of cylinders, which is higher than the rate which you request, the higher rate will be retained, will it not, and your exhibit as introduced shows that, by leaving that space blank! Mr. Carter: Yes, that is the understanding. Mr. Sheean: So that a uniformity of standardization, wliether it was on 10,000 pounds on drivers, or 250,000 pounds on drivers, would not in fact bring about uniformity in pay unless the base to which that would apply was uniform on all roads? Mr. Carter: It would effect uniformity only so far as it did effect unifonnity. It would not effect uniformity in those things not provided. 713 Mr. Sheean : It would effect uniformity only insofar as the base was uniform. Mr. Carter: So far as the rates were uniform I Mr. Sheean: Mr. Carter, you distinguished yesterday be- tween rates and earnings. Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Sheean : Mere uniformity in rates will not bring about uniformity in earnings. Mr. Carter : No, you have got to have uniformity of rates and base. Mr. Sheean: That is all. Mr. Carter: I should like to explain, if the Board please, that the use of the saving clause is an evidence of the conser- vatism of the request to be aribtrated, or to be settled through negotiation. If the requests of the men were radical, they would ask for the highest rates now paid on any railroad, and by that process eliminate the necessity for a saving clause. It is only because they have asked this standardization to be adopted at less than the highest rates that it is necessary to protect those rates which are higher. Now, if saving clauses are to be aban- doned, it would necessitate that the requests be made still higher ; and therefore I say to you that the presence of a saving clause is prima facie evidence of the conservatism of the request. Mr. Byram : Mr. Carter, the desirability of standardization would not carry you so far as to want a standardization that did not involve an increase in pay, would it? Mr. Carter : It is our purpose to help the engineers get in- creases, and we would protest against decreases. Mr. Byram: Would it be better to treat standardization as a separate proposition, than to standardize on the present basis, if you please, and then consider the proposition of an increase separately? Mr. Carter : I think it has been the purpose to standardize the wages on the present basis, and then next to standardize the rules, and then everything would be standardized. Mr. Byram: Yes, but the standardization which you pro- pose here involves a very decided increase in pay along with it, does it notf Mr. Carter: I think you will find that Exhibit 4 shows exactly the increase in pay on each engine. 714 Mr. Byraiii : it involves an increase in pay. It is not stand- ardization solely for the purpose of standardization, but it also involves an increase in pay. Mr. Carter: It involves an increase in pay, except where indicated in Exhibit 4 by three stars. The Chairman: Call your next witness. Mr. Phillips: Mr. Carter, in connection with a former ex- hibit, I believe you stated that it was your belief that the wages of engineers and firemen would be increased in proportion to the task they performed, and in proportion to their earnings for their employers and in proportion to their productive effi- ciency. Is there anv other reason whv you believe that the wages of engineers and firemen should be increased? Mr. Carter: I think my statements pertaining to increased responsibility, increased labors and increased productive effi- ciency were })articularly with reference to the gradations of wages by weights on drivers. I think that was the matter under discussion, and I now state that, regardless of a division of weights on drivers as basis of pay of engineers and firemen, those same reasons should now be considered in increasing the wages of locomotive engineers and firemen ; but I have another reason which has nothing to do with a division of weights on drivers, why the engineers and firemen should have their wages increased, and that is the increased cost of living. Mr. Phillips : Have you prepared any tables or data which bear out this statement? Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Phillips : I have in my hand a book entitled ' ' Increased Cost of Living of Locomotive Firemen, Hostlers and Engineers in Twenty-nine Western Towns." Do you identify this as the work you have prepared? Mr. Carter : I do. Mr. Phillips: If the Board pleases, I desire to introduce this volume as Exhibit No. 9. (The document so offered and identified was received in evidence and thereupon marked ''Employes' Exhibit No. 9, re- ceived in evidence December 9, 1914.") Mr. Phillips: Mr. Carter, will you kindly explain, for the benefit of the Board, the purpose of this exhibit and the manner in which it has been prepared? 715 Mr. Carter: As stated before, we had knowledge that the last increase in wages for locomotive firemen in the western district, secured througii an arbitration, imder the Federal Law, was based entirely, in the majority of cases, upon the increased cost of living. We had knowledge that even on the coal-burning locomotives the Board had based one-half of the increase solely on account of the increased cost of living. Tiaving that knowl- edge, last November it appeared to me that an investigation should be made, a special investigation, to ascertain if there had been another increase in the cost of living of locomotive engineers and firemen, in the same towns and employed on the same roads that were included in the award of 1910. I had at my command the official reports of the Bureau of Labor Statistics of the United States; but I found that they applied only to the larger cities, the larger centers of popula- tion, and I anticipated that if we depended upon the govern- ment reports, as issued by the Bureau of Labor Statistics, that some one might question whether the same increase affected engineers and firemen in outlying districts, in the smaller towns. I also recognized the fact that, in the large cities, the retail prices vary with the business site or location. For instance, you might find, in some localities, merchants were selling goods at a lower retail price than in other localities in the same cities. I also recognized the fact that many merchants in the larger cities catered to a trade that did not include firemen, and all of these things might be brought out for the purpose of discrediting the value of the governmental reports. I found nothing in Canada that went back to 1909 and 1910 for retail prices. Tiiey have been printing a most extensive report there on wholesale prices, but it has only been within the last year or so that they have begun presenting informa- tion concerning retail prices, and, as evidence that it is but a recent addition to their work, they now publish it as an appendix to their wholesale prices. I also recognize it is a fact that we should ascertain what had been the increase in retail prices of articles actually pur- chased by firemen. Having in view the necessity of something unusual, I devised certain schedules or report forms. When I use the word "schedule" I mean a list of matters to be investi- gated, and to which replies should be added. 716 I first took, for the meat schedule, exactly the same schedule as adopted by the Uuitod States. There being no milk schedule, or increase in price of milk, shown in the governmental reports, or at least issued by the United States Bureau of Labor Sta^ tistics, I found it impracticable to, myself, devise any extensive schedule, so I limited it to the price of milk when sold in different quantities and the difterent kinds of milk sold. With regard to groceries, I realized there are many things purchased from a grocer not at all included in the reports of the United States Government, and which at that time had not been included in the reports of the Canadian Government, so I called to my assistance one of the grocers of the city of Peoria, who, per- ha]is, does the most extensive business, and he and I went over price lists and he finally 0. K.'d a list of one hundred and eleven standard articles, or items perhaps they should be called, which are usually purchased l)y the average family. You will note, by referring to the schedule of this grocery report, beginning on page 5 and extending over to page 7, that there are 111 items. The purpose in numbering these items by number was so that you, without reading the line, could compare them by item num- bers. The item numbers were inserted to facilitate future com- pilations, computations and derivative tables. You will note in the first items, 1, 2, 3 and 4, that they apply to apples. Now, in order to be able to answer whether this was a Ben Davis apple, or if I knew Avhether it was a Jonathan apple, I wanted to say yes, and you will see there, I have, as item No. 1, No. 1 Baldwins ; No. 2, No. 1 Greenings ; No. 3, No. 1 Jonathans ; and No. 4, No. 1 Ben Davis. You will also find that in coffee I show several grades. In cheese, three grades. In flour, I grouped that by the quantity purchased. You will find, in many instances, that there is a grouping of the same general data through differ- ent item numbers. We worked on that quite a while, and the gentleman to whom I refer, Mr. Sengenberger, said he believed that was about as accurate and complete a schedule as could be devised, and I accepted his judgnient. With regard to the schedule for shoes, I found it was prac- tically impossible to make a schedule for shoes; but I outlined a method of questioning which was adhered to as closely as possi- ble by the investigators. With regard to clothing, I visited personal friends of mine 717 who are connected with extensive retail clothing establishments, and learned that it would be impossible to make comparisons of the prices of clothing, for the reason that the price of the same suit changes greatly in the same year, sometimes as much as 50 per cent. I learned that in the early part of the season mer- chants have to get a high profit on their goods, for, when the season passes, they probably would have to sell them at cost and sometimes below cost. I also learned that there was a constant change in the quality of the material, in the cut and design of the clothing, and I was assured by a merchant in whom I have great faith as to his judgment, that it would be impossible to make any comparison, for no one else had ever succeeded in making accept- able comparisons. Now, with regard to fuel, knowing that fuel was an item of considerable expense to railroad men, I attempted to ascertain information on that. By the way, I called to my assistance men, in whose sincerity of purpose, in whose ability and in whose earnestness, I had great faith ; men whom I believed, if they went out, would hon- estly and sincerely obtain results. In fact, would be able to * ' carry a message to Garcia, ' ' as Elbert Hubbard has said. They went into the field and adhered closely to the instructions and the schedules, and we have a bound volume here of their reports. I also have a bound volume of the affidavits, personally acknowl- edged before notaries public, of the merchants who gave the information. For fear that any special investigation conducted by a partisan in a movement of this kind might be discredited as being partisan, I insisted that all merchants should be notified of just what was wanted, and that before filling in a single blank space they would be requested to make oath to the accuracy of the same, before a notary public. Now, when that instruction was given, I anticipated that most of the merchants Avould abso- lutely refuse to do anything of the kind. To my surprise, I think only one, or possibly two, of all these merchants, said they were too busy to make affidavit thereto. It is true it required some waiting on the part of the investigators, and it required, in many instances, to have the notary public go to the store, because we could not ask the merchant to leave his store and go to the office of the notary public; but, by referring to the supporting data, which will have to be introduced as such, as we have not two 718 copies of it, you will find how carefully these reports have been prepared and how the retail merchants have sworn to the ac- curacy of the same. Now, we had to have a startinj^- point. We recognized tliat to start out one certain day would require an enormous number of investigators, all of whom should complete their work in that day. Therefore, we instructed the investigators to say this to each merchant: ''What are the retail prices today, then examine your records, and, to the best of your ability, state what the retail prices of the same articles, sold in the same amount, would have been just for four years previously." Now, I think you will (ind the first of these reports bear date — you cannot find that here, as they are not listed chrono- logically, but you will find, I think, that the first date was early in December, and you will liiul the last date was in the first days of March. Taking the territory into consideration, and the fact that while we had five men, one was substituted for the other on account of sickness and death in the family of the one first assigned, and because the other could not take up the work until some time later, I think you will find that there was less than an average of four men in the field. They traveled from city to city, visiting merchants and accomplished this en- tire investigation and made their reports by the early days of March ; in fact, three of the investigators com]ileted their inves- tigations in the latter days of February. In selecting the towns to be investigated, I Avanted small towns or, rather, towns about which it could not be said that in one part of the town they charged one price and in another part of the town they charged another price. J also wanted to select what are called "Kailroad towns," so it could not be said it was one in which railroad men did not actually use these prices. In fact, I used every })recaution to ]irevent the report being discredited. I selected twent\-nine towns. These towns, I think vou will find, are towns where railroad men make up a considerable part of the jiojiulation of the towns, with possibly one excep- tion, and that is Tnttle Kock, Arkansas. We became confused there, and, instead of confining our work to Argentine, Arkan- sas, which is across the bridge from Little Ro.^k, we have re- ports from both Little Rock and Argenta, — I said ''Argentine" 719 but I meant "Argeiita." The towns selected were these, in alphabetical order: Winslow, Arizona; Little liock, Arkansas; Kamloops, British Coliinibia; Dnnsninir, California; Sacra- mento, California: La Juntci, Colorado; Pocatello, Idaho; Galesburg, Illinois ; KstlH iville, Iowa ; Parsons, Kansas; Win- nipeg, Manitoba; Breckenridge, Minnesota; Waseca, Minne- sota; l)e Sota, Missouri; Butte, Montana ; (Uendive, Montana; Lincoln, Nebraska ; Albuquerque, New Mexico ; Sparks, Nevada ; Dickinson, North Dakota; Koseburg, Oregon; llegina, Sas- katchewan ; Huron, South Dakota ; Denison, Texas ; Ogden, Utah ; Hillyard, Washington ; Taconia, Washington ; La Crosse, Wisconsin; and Chej'enne, Wyoming. You will understand, that I have read these names alphabetically, by states, and that is the only significance that should be attached to the manner in which I have read them. These towns were selected, as I say, because we wanted to know what the true increase in cost of living had been for railroad men. 1 think 1 have covered the pur])ose and method of this report. Mr. Philli])s : You stated, Mr. Carter, if I understood you correctly, the investigators began their work in December or in January — did you mean in DecemJier, 1913, and January, 1914? Mr. Carter: December, 1913, and closed their work about the 1st of March, 1914. Mr. Phillips: In one place here, on ])age 13, — it has just caught my eye — the last colunm of the table there, you say "Increase in average ])rice, 1913-1914 over 1909-1910." T be- lieve you explained that these investigations did not all begin on a certain day, but you took the winter of 1909-1910 for the purposes of coni|jarison with the winter of 1913-1914. Mr. Carter: Yes, sir. You might say the same three months period of the winter 1913-1914 compared with the same three months ]^eriod of the winter 1909-1910. The Chairman: Mr. Phillips, will you kindly suspend' The Board will take a recess until 2 :30. (Whereupon, at 12:30 o'clock P. M., a recess was taken until 2:30 P.M.) After Recess. W. S. CAKTl^R was recalled for further examination and having been previously sworn, testified as follows : 720 Mr. Phillips : Mr. Carter, turning from page to page here, there are a number of reports or report forms. Are these the sample forms in a measure described by you this morning, and which were used in making your investigations. Mr. Carter: Yes, and selected at random. There may be something in them that may require explanation. They were not selected for any specific purpose. I might say they were se- lected, so far as different sections of the country were con- cerned, and different subjects, but there was no attempt to select any specific form. Mr. Phillii»s : These various reports on the different com- modities are typical of the numerous reports gathered? Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Phillips: Now, please tuni to page 14, to the table numbered 2, beginning there. Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Phillips : And continuing on following pages. This is a meat table, is it not? Mr. Carter: That is the first derivative table from the original reports on retail prices of meat. Mr. Phillips: It shows the prices at the different points, at the different periods taken into consideration in your in- vestigation ? Mr. Carter: As quoted from the original reports. You will note there that Winslow, Arizona, has report No. 1 and No. 2. Jn that instance the inyestigator interviewed two butchers, or meat dealers, in the same town. Mr. Phillips: Does there appear to be any similarity in prices, or increase, where such dual investigations were made? Mr. Carter : Sometimes they differed. Note the first item there in report No. 1, from Winslow, Arizona, shows that the price of sirloin steak, native steer, was 20 cents in the winter of 1909-1910, and 28 cents in the winter of 1913-1914, while report No. 2 from the same town shows that in the winter of 1909-1910 the price of sirloin steak, native steer was 22 cents, and the price in the winter of 1913-1914 was 27 cents. There is a deviation right there. Mr. Phillips: They both show an increase, however, do they nott Mr. Carter: Yes. 721 Mr. Phillips: They appear to be about the same price in 1914, one having increased a little more than the other. Mr. Carter: I think you will find that there is a general similarity, although there are differences. For instance, you may find where there is no increase in meat. If there is any such report, you will find it right there. Mr. Phillips: And the actual rates reported from the different points and for the different kinds of meat, are set forth in this table in their entirety? Mr. Carter: The prices in table 2 are copied from the original reports. Mr. Phillips : On page 13 is table 1. Is this a derivative table from table 2? Mr. Carter: Table 1 is derived from table 2, and is a sununary of the information found in table 2. For all the rates shown in table 2, for each of the items of meat, we show the number of rates or reports which go to make up the average price per pound quoted in the summary on page 13. Mr. Phillips: You show the average price per pound for the winter of 1909-1910 in the second column of figures, do you! Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Phillips: And the average price per pound for 1913- 1914 in the second column under the next heading. Mr. Carter : Which would be the fourth column of figures. Mr. Phillips: And in the last column you show the in- crease in average price. That would be the average increase, would it not! Mr. Carter: No, that would be the increase in the average price of 1913-1914 over 1909-1910, showing the percentage of increase. Mr. Philli})s : But the actual prices or figures setting forth the actual cost of these meats, are all set forth in -detail in table 2! Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Phillips: And these figures, 36 per cent increase in average price, 35 per cent, 34 per cent, for sirloin steak, steer, heifer and cow, and the 37 per cent, and the 33 per cent, 40 per cent and 26 per cent on down the extreme right hand column, show the increase in average prices for the year. Mr. Carter: Yes. 722 Mr. I'liillip^: Or for tlic years In'twpoii tlic two periods. About a four year period, is it not? Mr. Carter: About a four year period. Mr. Pbillips: Now, if you will turn to Table 4 on pauc '22. and explain iliis to us briefly, please? Mr. Carter: Praoticnlly the same class of int'oniiation, but it ai)plies to milk. Mr. Phillips: I^ this a derivative table for milk on pa^e 21 f Mr. Carter: Table 4 on pages 22 to 25 is the first deriva- tive table from the original reports. Table 3 is derived from Table 4, and in fact is a summary of tiie information sliown in Table 4. Mr. Phillips: In the extreme right hand column, 21 per cent increase in average price would apply to a i)int of sweet milk, 22 per cent for a quart of sweet milk, 23 for a half gallon, 24 for a gallon, 25 per cent for a quart of sour milk, 88 per cent for a gallon of sour milk. How do you account for that ai^parent great increase, Mr. Carter? Mr. Charter: I have tried to account for it, but 1 have no information upon the subject; but, I rather think that formerly sour milk was not used: in other words, sour milk — I mean but- termilk and ])ossibly other classes of sour milk. I reached the conclusion by a study of the two that sour milk was not used, perhaps, as extensively four years ago as it was when this report was compiled, and I account for the greater increase when the buttermilk was not sold by the gallon, that is, when sold by the quart in this; that, they, perhaps, in the beginning, would not do as much for delivering as they did for the milk, therefore, in a small delivery it is possible it does not show as much of an increase as a delivery of a gallon, which would probably indicate the real increase of the value of the milk not so weighted with the expense of delivery. I am just surmising tliat. I liave no positive information on it. Mr. Phillips: And the following figui'es for cream show the average increase ? Mr. Carter: Yes, sir. Mr. Phillips: Mr. Carter, turn to Table 6 on page — The Chairman: May I interrupt. Do I understand counsel for the railroads to controvert the proposition by the other side 723 tliat there has been a material increase in tlie cost of liviniA' dur- ing- the past four years? Mr. Sheean: Yes, sir; not a material increase, but we do contend tliat the increase in the cost of living is no greater in the ratio of increase than the increased earnings of the men during the same period. The Chairman: The reason 1 asked the (juestion was, T thought if we reached an agreement it miglit facilitate the hear- ing as respects tliat point. Mr. Sheean: There is no controversy aljout the (piestion that there has been an increase in the cost of living, but we ex- pect, if that question becomes material, to attempt to follow the weighted average system that is adopted by the Bureau of Labor. In this exhibit there has been no intention of carrying out into the average, as I get it, the manner in which these dif- ferent items would affect the total cost of living. The Chairman: In that view of the matter you may pro- ceed with the examination. Mr. Phillips: I believe I reciuested you to turn to Table 2G on page 28. In this table, which shows increase in retail prices of one hundred and eleven articles of food, in grocers' sun- dries, in twenty-eight western towns, that continues on a number of pages over to page 56, I believe. Now, Mr. Carter, you ex- plained bi'iefly this morning, I think that you had listed apples as they appear first in the table beginning on page 28, four times, because of four diiferent kinds of apples or four different vari- eties. Now, at the outset vou sav: "Increase in Betail Price of 111 Articles," have you counted apples as four articles there? Mr. Carter: Every item is considered as an article. Mr. Phillips: Then apples repeated four times will mean four articles. Mr. Carter: You will note by referring to report 72, that in the same town, Ben Davis are 30 cents a peck, Johnathans 60 cents a peck, Greenings and Baldwins 50 cents a peck, which shows there is a great difference in the price of apples, accord- ing to the variety of apples. Mr. Phillips: This method of classifying your items of apples, aj)plies to the other articles where you make a different iteTn for the different articles? Mr. Carter: Yes. 724 Mr. Pbillii)s : Have you actually 111 articles, or 111 iteuis? Mr. Carter: Perlia])s the word ''item" would be more accurate. I have 111 ditferent items on which ] trices are quoted, as distinct from any other item. Mr. PhiHi])s: In these tables, I believe you ex])lained this mornin<^, or i)erha])S it was in connection with this same table, that you have rei>eated the table several times in order to get all of the cities in — there is a repetition for the different cities? Mr. Carter: On account of having 111 items, you will note that it takes a column four ]iages in lenglh to report for one city. And then we take u)) another set of cities, in tlu' same manner. Mr. Phillijts: And you use the same items each time. ioi)al»ly he used in such a manner that it cuiirlit to l»e sworn to. If I remember correctly, there are only two reports not sworn to. Mr. Pliiilips: AVhv were thev not sworn to? Mr. ('artel': 1 don't rememlH'r. Ft seems to me the cor- resi)ondence indicates that tlie investiiifator conld not get the dealer and the Notary Public together. Mr. P}iillii)s: ( )n page ^7, Mr. Carter, is Tabh- 11. What is shown by this table? Mr. Carter: This is simply a table for information. It shows in what states the different reports by subjects and by numbers may be found. Following that the names of the inves- tigators and the reports made by each. Following that you will find several ]iages devoted to ])ersonal interviews with retail dealers and fpiotations from interviews with retail dealers, as shown in these reports. Mr. Phillips: Are these reports from investigations of retail dealers in the language of the dealers? ^Ir. Carter: Sometimes, and sometimes in the language of the in\ estigator. The investigators were instructed to ascer- tain what dealers blamed for the higher prices of the articles (pioted. For instance, we have here in the first subdivision on l)age 67, some investigation with regard to the wholesale prices and causes. I think most of the meat dealers })articularly, in fact nearly all dealers, say that on account of the wholesale cost of these items they have been compelled to increase the retail price. Another subdivision, on page ()8, shows a claim that the retail prices have increased because of higher rents, and they cite the causes. The Chairman: Because of what! Mr. Carter: Higher rents of business localities. Tn the third item they attribute the increase in retail prices to the higher wages paid employes. Then again, investigators were instructed to ascertain, if possible, the usual amount of each article purchased by locomo- tive enginemen. The replies are here, or rather the interviews are liore 731 Then, again, on page 71, we have an exact reproduction of what they said about these different matters. In some instances it does not appear in the affidavit, because the affidavit usually is limited to the prices quoted: but you will find these cjuotations from the reports of investigators as to what was said. 1 tiiink the nature of the quotation will largely indicate that. For in- stance, at the bottom of the first column on ]tage 71, is a (juota- tion from Report No. 24, which says: ''I am advised bv Mr. W. S. Gulev that there has been a gen- eral advance in the wholesale price of meats of all (jualities," and so forth. That shows that he is simply reproducing what Mr. Guley told him, and that part is not sworn to by the dealer; but in some instances these statements appear as a part of the affidavit. Mr. Phillips: This report No. 24 would show clear1\ whore it was made and by whom, would it not? Mr. Carter: Yes. By turning to page 67, you will find that report No. 24 is from Missouri, and that it refers to meat and lard. Mr. Phillips: The report made by Mr. Guley, and to which he swore, was to show the increase in prices of meat and lard at that point, was it? Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Phillips: And these quotations, which cover several pages here, are sometimes in the language of the dealer, and sometimes in the language of the investigator who (lueried the dealer and gave his reply? Mr. Carter: Yes. I think that the information given by the dealers as to the usual amount of articles purchased monthly by locomotive enginemen is of considerable concern and interest, because it has always been difficult to as,certain what that is. I understand, the government has made certain investiga- tions, but usually the government investigators have gone into the mills where the most recent importations of labor may be found, and where the expense of living is not very high, and they have there found that a very low expense will keep a family of five for a year, an expense that is far below the standard of the American working man as set forth in political campaigns. Mr. Phillips: Now, will you turn again to page 11, please. On this page under the caption of " Wbat has been the incivased 732 cost of living" appear several paragraphs which I take it are vour deductions from the tables contained here? Mr. Carter: With permission I wonld like to read it. It is only slightly over half a page. ''Tables 1 and 2 include 1,329 reports on twenty classifica- tions of butchers' meats and show that the increase in the aver- age retail prices of such meats have equalled approximately one- third of the retail prices paid during the winter of 1909-10. If the average -expenditure for meats by families of railroad em- ployes in the winter of 1909-10 was $10 per month, it may be truly said that during the winter of 1913-14 the increase in such expenditures average $3.33 per month, or $40 per year; or, as is probably the case with families of railroad employes assigned to the lower paid positions, they ate less meat, or inferior meat, during the winter of 1913-14 than in 1909-10." Those deductions are made not only on the actual increases in prices, but on the estimates made by the dealers as to how much meat was purchased by the average family, and so forth, all of which may be found in detail in the latter portion of the exhibit. '' Tables 3 and 4 include 229 reports on milk and cream (from one-half pint to one gallon sales) and show there have been increases in retail prices from 20.81 per cent to 88.87 per cent during tlie period covered by this report. One retail dealer says, * The average railroad family of five persons will use three pints of milk daily'. ''Tables 5 and 6 include 6,444 reports on 111 items of food and sundries usually purchased by families of railroad employes from grocers. These reports show an increase of from 0.54 per cent for Fels Naptha soap, to 44.82 per cent for beef (corned in cans, best grade, No. 1 cans). For only eleven items of the 111 are decreases in retail prices shown. What has been the average increase of monthly expenditures by families of railroad employes for food and sun- dries purchased from grocers cannot be accurately determined, but some grocers have reported that grocery bills of such famil- 733 ies were from $4 to $8 per month higher in the winter of 1913-14 than in 1909-10. ''Table 7 includes reports for six classifications of shoes and shows that retail prices have greatly increased during the four-year period. Retail prices of shoes have increased 50 cents per pair, according to 42 reports. The increase per pair has been $1, state 29 reports. Three reports state the increase has been 75 cents per pair, three state 25 cents, and one states 15 cents. Others report from 121/2 per cent to 25 per cent increase. According to statements of retail dealers, the wearing qualities of shoes have depreciated, and thus, the actual increase in cost of shoes is greater than the prices indicate. ''Table 8 shows that the prices of men's clothing made by tailors have increased from $2.50 to $5 per suit, and from 15 per cent to 20 per cent, during the four years covered by this report. ' ' Table 9 includes 56 reports on different fuels, 45 of which show material increases in retail prices, 4 show decreases and 7 show no change." Mr. Phillips: Mr. Carter, the deductions made here are your own deductions from the tables contained in the exhibit? Mr. Carter: Yes, sir, and I think that perhaps the most en- lightening and perhaps the most interesting part of these reports are these interviews and quotations from dealers with regard to the amounts purchased in the different periods and how the increase in price has affected the amounts i^m'chased. For in- stance, you will find dealers will not hesitate to say that where, four years ago, the expensive cuts of meat were purchased by a family, the same family is now cutting down expenses as much as possible b}^ buying the cheaper cuts of meat. You will find others that sav that families are not buving as much meat as they did, and so on. Mr. Phillips: Without again referring to the tables or going into- any detail, does it appear that the increases for the cheaper cuts of meat are about the same as they are for the higher grade cuts of meat? Mr. Carter: Yes, and no. In some instances, yes. Now, we will take chuck roast, on page 13. That has an increase, for some items, more than rib roast; and again, if you will refer to 734 otlMT items in tlie same talile, you will iiiid just the reverse is true, that it is the iiiirli priced cuts of uieat that have advanced. 1 do not tliink there is mucli to be ascertained from a comi)arisou between the (jualities of meats; it seems that they increased witliout any apparent reason, some more tlian others. Mr. ]'liillii)s: T un-! 0, and has nothing to do witli the increased prices since that time. Mr. Phillips: Do you attiibute any increases of the recent months to tin' unusual conditions in Europe, "war prices," com- monlv called? Mi-. ( 'arter: T think that the war has contributed greatly to tlie in<'rease in the ])rices of food; but T think tliere is another reason, and T think ])erhai)s that has been covered to a great extent by stat(Mnents of people who ought to be versed on the subject. For instance, it is said that meat never will again be cheap, not as cheap as it was before the war prices prevailed, because there is a gradual decrease in the raising of cattle; that is, in proportion to the increase of tlie ]>opulation. but that is only speculative. Mr. Phillip.^: Now, Mr. Carter, you make certain deduc- tions here and also express your opinion to a limited extent. 735 Were your deductions made as to what is shown in these tables and your opinion formed without regard to tlie present high or "war prices" to which you refer? Mr. Carter: It has no reference to any prices since the date of the report, and I think you will thid that the last investi- gator completed his assigimient of towns on tlie 4th of March. I don't remember exactly. Mr. Phillips: If the Board pleases, it was previously stated that we would introduce here, for reference and informa- tion, the original rejiorts, and we will be glad to have them so introduced. The Chairman: You may offer them for that ]»urpose. Mr. Carter: And the original affidavits. Mr. Phillips : They are there. (The documents were delivered to the Secretary of the Board but not marked in evidence.) Mr. Phillips: Just another question, Mr. Carter; in your explanatory statement this morning, in connection with this Ex- hibit 9 and its purpose, and tlie reason that led you to make such an investigation, I understood you to say that in 1910 an increase of 15 cents per day had been granted to locomotive tiremen in the western country on account of increased cost of living. Is that correct? Mr. Carter : That is correct. 1 want to say, however, that it does not appear in the language of the Award ; but, as usual, disputes arose over what the Award meant, resulting in a con- vening of the Arbitration Board to interpret their own Award. Our Arbitrator, or, rather, the Arbitrator that had been se- lected by the Firemen to represent their interests in the Arbi- tration, and the Arbitrator selected by the railroads, to repre- sent the interests of the railroads, and the Chairman of the Board, the neutral arbitrator, had an interchange of correspond- ence as to what was meant by the award. I have here a letter, addressed to our arbitrator, from wliich I will quot«^: "Some two weeks ago I received a letter froui Mr. Scott which I unfortunatelj^ have not before me, making a request for my understanding of the meaning of Section 'b' of the Chicago Arbitration Award, to which I r<»plie(l, and as T liave a copy 736 of my letter to him, am ahlo to quote to you as follows from that letter: "'The allowance of 15 cents increase applies to all oil burning locomotives regardless of size or class of service (ex- cept the Mallet type). In other words, tiremen running on oil burning engines of whatever size or class of sei*vice (except Mallet type), receive only 15 cents increase, which is based en- tirely upon the increased cost of living.' " And our arbitrator continues: "Of course, this is my interpretation and, as you will re- member, is in accord with my theory expressed in our confer- ence, that we should allow 15 cents straight through to firemen on all locomotives, regardless of Avhether they fired with oil or coal or of the size or class of service (except the Mallet type) ; this 15 cent increase being based entirely upon the increased cost of living." The Chairman: AVho are you quoting from? Mr. Carter: 1 am quoting from the Chairman of the Arbi- tration Board that disposed of the firemen's western case in 1910. I em])hasized that this morning and prepared this report and shall expect, at the proper time, to show that the increased productive efficiency, the increased responsibility and the in- creased labors from 1907 to 1910; or, for that matter, for any other period, were not considered by the Arbitration of 1910 in reaching their award, except that, for firemen on coal burning locomotives, in freight service; or, rather, in other than pas- senger service, they received another fifteen cents increase, which may be attributed to the matters referred to. Mr. Phillips: That is all. CROSS EXAMINATION. Ml-. Sheean : Mr. Carter, in 1910 before the Board of Arbi- tration, there were presented and argued, increased labor, in- creased responsibility, increased productive efficiency, were there not? Mr. Carter: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean : Much the same general argument as has been presented here? 737 Mr. Carter : And as will be presented. Mr. Sheean: Yes. And the award, you say, makes no reference to the basis on which any particular item was al- lowed or disallowed or any conclusion reached? Mr. Carter : Yes, it states specifically that it was entirely — Mr. Sheean : The award ? Mr. Carter : No, not the award. Mr. Sheean : This is a personal letter written by one mem- ber of this Board, which made this public conclusion, to whom! Mr. Carter : To the member of the Arbitration Board that had been selected by the firemen. Mr. Sheean: That is no part of tlie records of that pro- ceeding, is itf Mr. Carter : No part of the records of that proceeding. Mr. Sliea : And no announcement is made in connection with the Award as to what reasons induced or persuaded the Board to make the Award it did, as to any item or any number of items f Mr. Carter: Not in the language of the Award. Mr. Sheean: Or in anything that is filed as a part of the official proceedings which terminated with the Award or of which the Award forms a part? Mr. Carter : Well, I don 't know w^hether this would be con- sidered official or not; but I am sure that it liad the same effect as though it were official — it stuck. Mr. Sheean: ^Hiat I mean, Mr. Carter, and all I mean, is that there is not in the proceedings which led up to the Award, or in the Award itself, any statement of the reasons which per- suaded the Board to make a finding, on any particular item or claim? Mr. Carter : The Award was very brief. It simply stated the increases allowed. Mr. Sheean: And the letter from which you quote is not filed with or made any part of the proceedings in the arbitra- tion proceeding? Mr. Carter : No, sir, that is, not filed in the court ; it is filed with the arbitrators. Mr. Sheean: Filed with the arbitration proceedings? Mr. Carter: It is not filed as an official governmental record; it is an official rocoid of the arlutrators. 738 Mr. Sbot-an: Well, as a part of the record in that ai'bi- t ration proceeding? Mr. Carter: Not in the court record; but in the files of the arbitrators. Mr. Sheean: Now, Mr. Carter, as to this Exhibit number 9, I think from what you said preliminarily you are familiar with the investigation conducted by the Bureau of La))or with reference to the cost of living from year to year. Mr. Carter: Yes. I will have another exhibit on it in a few minutes. Mr. Sheean: You will have? Mr. Carter: The next exhibit will be from what you are reaureau of Labor makes use of, would be a compara- tively easy matter to make to the information which you have assem])led ? Mr. Carter : I think not, for this reason. Mr. Sheean: For what reason? Mr. Carter: I think you will find the class of labor that they investigated was not a class ' ^ 741 Mr. Sheean: I did not mean that, Mr. Carter. I asked you whether or not the application 1 did not want to get into any debate as to whether the Federal authorities were right or wrong in arriving at the weighted index which they have adopted ; all I wanted to ask you about was, whether or not there was any real difficulty in applying the weighted index which they have adopted to the facts elicited by your report? Mr. Carter : I will say yes. If j'^ou want me to explain, I will tell you why. Mr. Sheean : All right, explain. Mr. Carter : In the Government investigation you will note that the expenses, per family, are very low. In discussing the matter with Mr. Croxton, who had charge of that immediate work, he advised me that this investigation was made largely of mill employes, and largely of men who were working in those mills. I understand they were men who probably send a large part of their earnings back to the "Old Country," and I asked Mr. Croxton — I said, "Would that be fair!" He said: "That is the investigation we conducted." Any weighted index based upon that class of labor would be very unfair to what we have been taught to believe is American labor. For instance, I un- derstand that Mr. Sheean : Mr. Carter, these reasons that you are giving me are not reasons why the weighted index, whether right or wrong, cannot be mathematically applied to your investigation"? Mr. Carter : Why it should not be applied. Mr. Sheean : My question was not why that should not be applied. I told you I did not want to debate the propriety or impropriety of the conclusions reached by the Bureau of Labor ; but, I did ask you whether or not there was any difficulty in applying that index, whether it was right or wrong, to the infor- mation which vou have here? Mr. Carter: I would say there would be no difficulty of applying it if it was the purpose to have a misleading result. Mr. Sheean : What you are questioning, Mr. Carter, is the propriety of applying the weighted index which the Bureau of Labor has arrived at, as a result of the investigation of some twelve thousand families, to the wage earners engaged in this particular line? 742 Mr. Cartt'i-: 1 would say that Avould be very unfair to the wage earners »'nj;aj?ed in tliis particidar line. Mr. Shccaii : Mr. Carter, isn't there, in that weighted index to which you refer, greater importance given to the item of fresh beef than to any other item in the weighted index which the Gov- ernment authorities have gotten upf Mr. Carter: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean: Does not the government l)udget consist of the items of fresh beef, fresh hog products, salt hog products, poultry, eggs, milk, butter, lard, sugar, flour, meal and potatoes? Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. kSheemi: And is there anything in the weighted index and the items that are there used, that would exclude your mak- ing use, in a weighted manner, of these items in the information you obtained? Mr. Carter: If you want accurate results, yes. 1 am going to say that if applied to your expense, it would be quite different from what the facts would show. Mr. IShiH'an: As to the relative importance of one of these items as compared with the other? Mr. Carter : Yes, I think so. Mr. Sheean : Then, since we have diverted this into a dis- cussion of its propriety, in what way would you change it? Would you increase the importance of meat as against the im- portance of butter, oi- would you increase the importance of but- ter as weighted in comparison with meat? Mr. Carter : Without having any definite information upon the subject. I think the earning capacity of the American citizen or would-be citizen has much to do with the character of food that he purchases. For instance, an engineer on a high-paid run might aspire to have honey in the comb. I doubt very much whether the latest importation, earning very low wages in the steel mill, would ever have ambition to eat honey at all. Mr. Sheean : Mr. Carter, av hat item is there in the tabula- tion which you have assembled at pages 26 and 27 which does not legitimately fall within the items which the Bureau of Labor uses? You have undertaken no tabulation as to honey in the comb, have you ? Mr. Carter : No, sir. Mr. Sheean : What article is there on pages 26 and 27 that 743 does not properly fall under one or the other heads of the weighted index which the Federal authorities make use off Mr. Carter : 1 have not said they do not properly fall with- in the index, but 1 have said I did not think that an index of per- centages as to the amount of money spent for potatoes would be the same index as for a person who is earning more money. Mr. Sheean: I am not talking about the money. I am talking about the relative importance, in the family budget, of the one item as compared with tlie other. Do you criticise the proportions in tliis budget between butter and meat, or between what other items? Mr. Carter: I liave not criticised it, because I have not attempted to apply it ; but I have said — Mr. Sheean : You have given us certain reasons as to why you refuse to apply it. Can you tell me in what respect it is that you consider the index unsound? Mr. Carter: I have said that a budget would depend al- most entirely upon the earnings of the provider for that family. I imagine that your budget and my budget would be entirely different from that of a man working in the steel mill. There- fore, to say that our living expenses should be gauged by an in- dex the same as for a man who had been in the country so short a time that he cannot speak the language, I do not think that is fair. Mr. Sheean : Mr. Carter, do you understand that this index is predicated upon an assignment of money to different items, or merely upon the relative importance of the different items that go into every family budget? Mr. Carter: Will you quote from that report the amount of money spent per year by those families? Mr. Sheean : I have no reference to money spent. Mr. Carter: The report that you quote from has it. Mr. Sheean: I am referring to the distribution, and the matter of the relative importance of different items which enter into every standard budget. Mr. Carter : I have not the report here, but I think you will find that those families spend very little money for a year's living. Mr. Sheean: In any event, Mr. Carter, there has been in no fiart of this exhibit any table which attempts to show the 744 imi)ortanco or uniniiHiilaiicc, relatively, of flour, as compared with walnuts? • Mr. Cartel-: Kxcept, as stated bj' the dealers in the back of the book. Mr. Sheean: That is all. The Chairman: Anything further from this witness? Mr. Pliillii^s: Mr. Carter, in regard to this letter which you read, as having passed between the Chairman of the former Board of Arbitration and one of the nembers of that Board, do you know whether all tlio members of that Board received a copy of that letter? Mr. Carter: I am (]uite sure they did. 1 think they inter- changed cov>ios at that time. Mr. Phillips: Do you know whether all the members of that Board acquiesced in the statements contained therein"? Mr. Carter: I can vouch for two of them. I don't know what the others said. Mr. Phillips: Do you laiow whether tha^ letter was 1iled as a part of the record of a proceeding subsequent to the orig- inal arbitration? Mr. Carter: I think not. Mr. Phillips: It was not made a part of it? Mr. Carter: No, sir. ^Ir. Stone: Mr. Carter, these articles of which you give the prices in these twenty-eight western towns are actually for sale in these shops in those railroad towns, are they not? Mr. Carter: Where they quote the price, I suppose they have them for sale. In some instances they do not quote the price. In those instances I think tliey would not have them for sale. Mr. Stone: Coming down to the increased cost of flour and sugar and tobacco, it might be possible for a family to live a whole month and not buy any of these conmiodities at all, might it not? Mr. Carter: They might buy baker's bread, and not use tobacco. Mr. Stone: They might live on eornmeal, and not buy wheat flour at all? Mr. Carter: Yes, it is possible. 745 Mr. Stone: And at the Avages some of our men are getting, they probably have had to live on cornmeal? Mr. Carter: I will not say that. 1 know some of them like cornmeal, or corn bread, at least. 1 am one. of them. Mr. Stone: That is all. The Chairman: Call your next witness. Mr. Phillips : Mr. Carter, I understood you to say that in addition to this report on the cost of living, you liad a re])ort based upon government statistics? Mr. Carter: Yes. Mr. Phillips: 1 have here a little volume entitled ''In- crease in Retail Prices of Principal Articles of Food in Western Cities and Towns of the United States and Canada." Do you recognize this as the work you have prepared? Mr. Carter: I do. Mr. Phillips : If the Board please, we desire to introduce this as Exliibit number 10. (The pamphlet, so offered and identified, was received in evidence and thereupon marked ""Employes' Exhibit No. 10, December 9, 1914.") Mr. Phillips: Now, Mr. Carter, will you kindly explain the purpose of this exliibit? Mr. Carter: After the preparation of Exhibit 9 my atten- tion was called to the fact that it had been prepared by me, and that I would, perhaps, be connected in a partisan manner with the presentation of this case, either to the Managers' Committee or to a Board of Arbitration. Having regard for my reputation as an investigator, I thought I had best find what someone else had said about the same subject. This Exhibit Number 10 was prepared to show what the governments of the United States and Canada thought about the increased cost of living. Shall I go on and explain, without questions ? Mr. Phillips: Yes, if jou will. Mr. Carter: I think I can save time. Mr. Phillips: I think it will expedite the work if you will go on and explain it without my asking questions. Mr. Carter: On pages 4 and 5 you will find Table 2, show- ing the retail prices of principal articles of food, 1909 to 1913, inclusive, in seventeen western cities. 746 " Iiifonnatiou from wliit'li tliis tabular statement is derived will l>e found in Bulletins 10.'), 110 and 138, published by the United States Bureau of Labor Statistics. Prices for 1911, 1912, and 1913 are ik? reported for October 15 of each of those years, October beinir the last report obtainable when this statement was prepared. Prices for 1909 and 1910 are as reported for November of each of those years, no ro]>orts for October of such years beiiii^' shown in bulletins." Vou will note tiiat the seventeen cities apixiarinju^ at the head of the columns are Little Rock, Arkansas; Los Angeles, California: San Fiancis.co, California; Denver, Colorado; Chi- cago, Illinois; New Orleans, Louisiana; Minneapolis, Minnesota; St. Paul, Minnesota; Kansas City, Missouri; St. Louis, Missouri; Omaha, Nebraska; Portland, Oregon; Memphis, Tennessee; Dal- las, Texas; Salt Lake City, Utah; Seattle, Washington, and ^nhvauk Mr. Goulding: No, sir, we have a train made up coming north to make just deliveries. We do not pick up any going north, just deliver to these different lines, and then go on until we get through, then we turn in. Mr. Sheean: On the northbound trip it is entirely a de- livery trip to the different connections. Mr. Goulding: Yes, sir, also south, but we do not deliver to any foreign line going south. We pick up and set out. Mr. Sheean: All of these movements from Chicago to Whiting, and from Whiting back to Chicago are made under block, aren't they? Mr. Goulding: Except the single track. Mr. Sheean: How long is that single track over which you go? Mr. Goulding: About four miles, somewhere in that neigh- borhood. Mr. Sheean: What is it? Mr. Goulding: About four miles. Understand, the block system is just between Chicago and the B. & O. Junction. That quits there. The other part of the road is here and there blocked. There is only one block, and that is at Barr Yat-d. ' Mr. Sheean : At the Barr Yard '! Mr. Goulding: Yes, an automatic l)lock, until we strike the 778 state line. Then we have a block system from there to Pine Junction. Mr. Sheean : Mr. Goulding, there isn't any difference in the operating conditions here on the Terminal Railroad, any differ- ence in the operation of this month, November, 1914, from what they were in 1910? Mr. Gonlding: No, I cannot see any difference. It is about the same work all along. Mr. Sheean: And the run that you make is practically the same run that you were making then? Mr. Goulding: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean : I take it that you have one of these five desig- nated engines as to which an allowance of thirty minutes is made for preparation and for care at the end? Mr. Goulding: Yes, we have some other B. & 0. engines over here now, about the same size or type, about ten of them altogether, I guess. Mr. Sheean: In the schedule there are certain engines named, five engines? Mr. Goulding: Yes. Mr. Sheean: 1966 to 1971? Mr. Goulding: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean: You have your own engine? Mr. Goulding: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean: The same engine day in and day out? Mr. Goulding: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean: And it is one of these designated five, is itf Mr. Goulding: 1968, I have, on this particular run. The others are pooled. Mr. Sheean: You had 1968 back on December 24, 1910, did you? Mr. Goulding: Xo, I had 1971 at that time. Mr. Sheean: About how long have you had this 1968? Mr. Goulding: I have been on this run about five months, on which I have had 1968. Mr. Slieean: Before that, just what was your run, Mr. Goulding? Mr. Goulding: I had everything. I was in the pool then for a short time, and then after I had one regular run, they gave 779 me 2740, that is a B. & 0. engine, out of East Chicago, for a short time. Mr. Sheean: This $140.15 that you earned in the month of November is about what that run pays from month to month? Mr. Goulding: For that many days, yes, sir. Mr. Sheean: That is twenty-one days? Mr. Goulding; Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean: You think that is a fair average for the num- ber of days that you worked ? Mr. Goulding: A fair average right along. Mr. Sheean: And the pay is also a fair average? Mr. Goulding: Understand I work more days than that, sometimes. Sometimes I make twenty-three or twenty-four days, twenty-five days, maybe. Mr. Sheean: That is entirely optional with you, isn't it, Mr. Goulding? Mr. Goulding: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean: As to whether it would be twenty-one or twenty-three, twenty-four, or twenty-five? Mr. Goulding: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean: But taking twenty-one days as the days worked during the month, about $140 is a fair average as the pay for a month ? Mr. Goulding: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean : That is all. EEDIRECT EXAMINATION. Mr. Stone : Mr. Goulding, is it not a fact that the Balti- more & Ohio Railroad owns the Baltimore & Ohio Chicago Ter- minal ? Mr. Goulding: Well, that is too deep for me. I don't know who owns it. It has been sold so many times that I don't know where we are at. Mr. Stone : Well, you know one thing, don 't you, that you pay relief to the Baltimore & Ohio? Mr. Goulding: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: You are a member of the Baltimore & Ohio Relief Association? Mr. Goulding : Yes, sir. 780 Mr. Stone: I am not sure whether I asked you what is your rate for the first ten Iiours ; what do you get ? Mr. Goulding: $4.50. Mr. Stone: And 45 cents an hour overtime f Mr. Goulding: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: No higher rate for overtime? Mr. Goulding : No higher rate. Mr. Stone : Do you have any of the Baltimore & Ohio road engines in your switching service f Mr. Goulding : We have them in the transfer service ; they use them at times for switching; not very often. Mr. Stone: In this transfer run, when these Baltimore & Ohio engines are used, these road engines, are they built pur- posely for transfer work! Mr. Goulding: They are regular road engines as used on the road on the Baltimore & Ohio. Mr. Stone: Do you find it harder to do work with that type of engine than you do with an engine regularly equipped for switching? Mr. Goulding: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: Explain to the Board why it is harder? Mr. Goulding: Why, they have got a very low cab. The engine is all right to work, working with the front end of it, but with the back end it is a very hard matter for a man to handle the engine and watch signals. The cab is low and they are not equipped for that at all. They are awkward in every way. When you handle the throttle, you miss the signals, and it is hard work to get in and out of the windows backing up. The tanks are high and you cannot see over. Some of them you can see over pretty good, but others you cannot. Mr. Stone : I believe you said, in reply to a question, that it was o})tional with you whether you worked 21 or 24 or 25 days — is it optional or is it a question of endurance? Mr. Goulding: Why, what I understand by that is I can work the 26 working davs if I want, or 1 can lav off. Mr. Stone: You can work the 2fi working days if you can stand it to work that much? Mr. Goulding: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone : Isn 't it a fact in this month of November, where you worked only 21 days, that you worked 311 hours and thirty 781 some minutes, that you worked over thirty-nine days of eight hours in that time? Mr. Goulding : Yes. Mr. Stone : And that comes pretty near being double time. If you had been a hod carrier, you would have had in two months work at that, at a higher rate, in the city of Chicago. Mr. Goulding: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: I think that is all. Mr. Burgess : Did I understand you to say, Mr. Goulding, that this transfer property was 31 miles long, or 30? Mr. Goulding: It is about 30 miles long. Mr. Burgess : In using this fourteen hours and thirty min- utes, does it require that time to make the round trip? Mr. Goulding: Yes, sir. Mr. Burgess: You only make one round trip? Mr. Goulding: One round trip a day; yes, sir. Mr. Burgess : Would it be possible to relieve you at the expiration of the ten-hour period? Mr. Goulding: Why, I don't know whether it would or not. They would have to make some awkward changes in order to do that. Mr. Burgess: What is in my mind, Mr. Goulding, could this train start out from the initial point and get back in ten hours, if the work that the train is required to do was differently arranged? Mr. Goulding : Wli.y, I don 't think it could. Mr. Burgess: That is all. Mr, Byram: Mr. Goulding, are there any better runs in the service of the Baltimore & Ohio Terminal than the one you have — are there better runs? Mr. Goulding: No, sir, I have got about as good a run as they have got, outside of the suburban runs. Mr. Byram: And j^ou selected this run? Mr. Goulding: Yes, sir. Mr. Byram: Because you had the seniority which entitled you to select it? Mr. Goulding: Yes, sir. Mr. Byram : I suppose there are some runs that are not quite so satisfactory? Mr. Goulding: There are runs from the other end of the 782 road that are a little better tliau mine, which are daylight jobs, but I am not old enough to hold one of them. Mr. Byram: That is all. Mr. Shea: Mr. Goulding, how many hours constitute a day's work for an engineer on your road, according to the En- gineers' Agreement? Mr. Goulding : Ten hours or less. Mr. Shea : I understood you to say you averaged 14 hours and 50 minutes for the month of November. Mr. Goulding: Yes, sir. Mr. Shea: And work 20 days? Mr. Goulding: 21 davs. Mr. Shea: 21 days? Mr. Goulding: Yes, sir. Mr. Shea: Now. assuming that you completed your day's work at the expiration of ten hours, allowing one hour for preparatory time, that is thirty minutes for the initial trip and thirty minutes at the completion of your trip — Mr. Goulding: Yes, sir. Mr. Shea: You would not make $140.15, would you? Mr. Goulding: No, sir. Mr. Shea : As a matter of fact, you would only be making $113.95? Mr. Goulding: About that. Mr. Sliea: Now, supposing you were permitted, under your contract to complete your day's work at the expiration of, the ten hours, plus one hour preparatory time, and you worked the full month, 26 days, you would not even then make $140.15, would you? Mr. Goulding: No, sir. Mr. Shea : As a matter of fact, you would only make $128.70? Mr. Goulding: Yes, sir. Mr. Shea : So, then, in order to make this monthly wage, $140.15, you are compelled, as a matter of fact, to make that in overtime? Mr. Goulding : In overtime, yes, sir. Mr. Shea: That is all. Mr. Park : Mr. Goulding, I understood you to say, that on 783 the lirst tri}) yon run tliiougli to Wliitiiig, without doing any- work ? Mr. Goulding : No, sir. We do work at B. & 0. Junction ; we spot ears at the house track and pick up cars out of there. Mr. Park: What time do you usually get to Whiting? Mr. Gonldiug: Well, it averages along from 7 o'clock and 8 o'clock, and 8:30; sometimes 9 o'clock in the morning. Mr. Park: Do you have a regular time to leave there! Mr. Moulding: Sir? Mr. Park: Do you have a regular time to leave Whiting on the return trip ? Mr. Goulding : No, sir, whenever w^e are ready to go back, we get ready to go back. Mr. Park: How much coal do you burn on the round trip? Mr. Goulding : I couldn't tell you exactly ; it will run along maybe ten tons, ten or twelve tons. Mr. Park: Do you take coal on the trip, at AVhiting, or intermediate ? Mr. Goulding : We take our coal on those runs in the mid- dle of the road, that is, at Bine Island; and we don't take it at either end. Mr. Park : Do you think a switch engine would be prefer- able to a road engine on those transfer trains? Mr. Goulding : Do you mean a switch engine would be bet- ter on those trains than a road engine f Mr. Park : Yes, than a road engine. Mr. Goulding: No, sir, not on those trains. Mr. Park r That is all. Mr. Sheean : If I might be permitted, I forgot to ask Mr. Goulding one thing; when you spoke, Mr. Goulding, of taking your time for a meal, you are on continuous time on this run, are you not? Mr. Goulding: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean : So that whatever time you take, if you take a half hour for lunch at the other ejid of the line, the company pays you? Mr. Goulding: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean: During that time? Mr. Goulding: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean : These runs, when vou were asked about the 784 ten-hour day, is it not a fact that these engines that you run are specified on an hourly basis of 45 cents an hour? Mr. Goukling: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean : *'AVill be ])ai': I do. Mr. Stone: Why? Mr. Skog': Why, the chances we have, as we do, ordinarily switchino- on a lead, of cars not being- into clear, while in the day time yon conld see those things and at night the chances are they would be liable to corner you, shove them down from the other end of the track. Another thing, it is an unnatural time to work; you don't have much time with your family. Mr. Stone: Sleeping in day time and w^orking at nights! Mr. Skog: AVell, sleeping in the day time, I don't know; I could never sleep very well in the day time, and I think it is the same case with a great many. Mr. Stone : In case of the hazard you spoke of, such as accidents in cornering cars, and so forth, jou are disciplined for that, just the same as though it happened in broad daylight, are v.ou not! Mr. Skog : Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: Then the hazard of the occupation has in- creased with the night service? Mr. Skog: It has. And also, in order that the Board can see how the men there feel about it, I will say that we have four- teen men up there that are working days. All of those fourteen men or any one of those fourteen men could take a night trans- fer run because we hold seniority rights to the night transfer runs, most of which would pay $1.05 more for the transfer work, nights, than we are getting for the work we are doing days, but they would rather take the lower rate in order to work days. Mr. Stone: At the present time your switching rate isn't any higher for night work than it is for the day work? Mr. Skog : No, sir, it is not. Mr. Stone : Although the hazard is increased and, in your opinion, the work is harder? Mr. Skog: Yes, sir, and we are working with men — the men we are working with are getting* a higlier rate for their night work than their day work. Mr. Stone: How much higher, do you know? Mr. Skog : I am not sure, but I think it is twenty-five cents. Mr. Stone: Two and one-half cents an hour? Mr. Skog: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone : Then it is very evident, if your statement is 790 correct, these fourteen men at Minneapolis believe that there must be a reason for the differential of $1.05 a day between the night work and the day work ? Mr. Skog: It is, because I am one of those fourteen men. I had rather work for the lower rate daj^s than the higher rate nights. Mr. Stone: This $1.05 comes in, as 1 understand, because the transfer rate is the through freight rate, according to the class of engine on that road? Mr. Skog : Yes, sir, and we have seniority rights according to our schedule for those transfer runs. Mr. Stone : In other words, if your seniority entitled you to one of them, you could bid in that run tomorrow, if it was vacant ! Mr. Skog: Yes. Mr. Stone: But you prefer to stay on the day switch en- gine I Mr. Skog: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: So as to have a little social life? Mr. Skog: To be at home with the family; otherwise, if I would be working nights, they would all be away when I would get home, except my wife, she would be there. Mr. Stone: The children would be in school, probably? Mr. Skog: Yes. Mr. Stone: And, working nights on the transfer, there would not be a single night you could take your family and go anywhere and have any recreation, any time? Mr. Skog: Not very well. Of course, sometimes they don't work on Sunday night. Mr. Stone: But those occasions are rare? Mr. Skog: Yes. Mr. Stone: I think that is all, Mr. Slieean. CROSS-EXAMINATION. Mr. Sheeau: Mr. Skog, I am not entirely clear as to whether you have in this yard where you are working other engines on which there is paid $4.25 a day. Mr. Skog: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean: How many? Mr. Skog: How many at this $4.25 rate? 791 Mr. Slieean: Yes. Mr. Skog: Well, we are working about thirty engines, yes, maybe more, night and day, there, and out of tliose there are only these six I speak of that are the large engines. Mr. Sheean: That take the $4.50 rate? Mr. Skog: Yes. I Avould not say that for certain whether it is six, but it is close to six. I don't know. Mr. Sheean: Those engines were put into yard service back as far as 1910? Mr. Skog: There were some of them there, but they have increased since that time. Mr. Sheean: I take it from what you have said, Mr. Skog, about seniority, that the seniority as a switching engineer is limited to the yards and to the transfer service? Mr. Skog: Transfer service, yes, sir. Mr. Sheean: That is, you have grown up in that particular department? Mr. Skog: Well, our rules are, if you are in the yard serv- ice, you hold senioritj^ rights only in the yard and in the transfer work. Mr. Sheean: And that is in the agreement as to seniority on the Great Northern Eailroad? Mr. Skog: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean: Now, the seniority on your line as to yard service covers transfer service as well? Mr. Skog: Yes, sir, on the terminal division; that is, Min- neapolis and St. Paul. Mr. Sheean: What is the transfer service you speak of there? Mr. Skog: It is runs betAveen Minneapolis and St. Paul, Minneapolis and Hamlin and St. Paul and Hamlin. Mr. Sheean: About what is the length of the run there? Mr. Skog: It is only ten miles between the .cities. They run a little more because they run — well, out to Clearwater — well, it might be possibly twelve miles. Mr. Sheean: And the seniority district of you yard men just covers this particular transfer, or just this one yard, where you work, or are the rights interchangeable in the Minneapolis vard also? 792 ^Ir. vSkou: They are iiitorchaii^eal)k' oitlier at Minneapolis or St. Paul. Mr. Slieeaii: In the work at nights, Mr. Skoi;-, tlic move- ments made by the eni>ineers in switchine of vision? Mr. Skog: Well, sometimes it would not be a car length — two car lengths, probably. Mr. Burgess: Then, to comply with the rule, you would have to proceed at a speed wherein you could stop in about twenty feet? Mr. Skog: Yes, sir, lots of times — half a car length, yes, that would be about right. Mr. Burgess: Failing to do so, and you did strike some car, you would be subject to discipline in accordance with the practice on that railroad at the present time ? Mr. Skog: Yes, sir. Mr. Burgess : That is all. Mr. Park : Would it not be a pretty serious storm that would confine your vision to twenty feet? Mr. Skog: No. Well, yes, but we have them quite often where it gets so foggy you cannot see a car length away. Mr. Park : Don 't you think it is a proper rule to move with greater caution under those conditions than when the at- mosphere is absolutely clear? Mr. Skog: Oh, yes. Mr. Park: A vnse precaution? Mr. Skog: Oh, yes, sir, and we do, too. Mr. Park : Under this rule, to be able to stop within the distance or half the distance which the track would seem to be clear — isn't that flexible, so at times you can see for a mile, 805 and uiidor those coiulitioiis you can move ten or fifteen miles an bourf Mr. Sko,i>': Yes, sir. ]\rr. Park : And at other times you could only see for half a mile, and th*en you would move at a slower rate of speed? Mr. Skoi>": Yes, sir. Mr. Park : It is simply a rule — and the best rule I know of, and I think you too — of taking the proper precautions to protect your life and the lives of other employes and the prop- erty of the company, under those conditions? Mr. Skog- : Yes, sir. I think it is all right, too ; but taking it at night, especially, if you should move so slow, you would never get any work done. You would probably have to violate those rules to some extent. They do, anyway, at some times. Mr. Park : Mr. Sheean read into the record the method of discipline, and I understood from that you do have a discipline record on the Great Northern? Mr. Skog: Yes, sir. Mr. Park: I asked you in my former interrogations if it had a discipline record or actual suspension — do you have both? Mr. Skog: No, it is actual suspension. Mr. Park: Mr. Sheean read into the record discipline by record. Is that in vogue on the Great Northern? Mr. Skog : No, sir, it is by actual suspension. Mr. Park : Y'^ou don 't know whether they have, the so-called Brown sj'^stem? Mr. Skog : They have not, no. Mr. Park : So you are not demerited if you are found at fault; you are actually suspended? Mr. Skog: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: Mr. Skog, I would like to ask you one more question : Is it not a fact that you are expected to get the work done and to go on and do the work, and then, if anything hap- pens, they have the rule there for discipline? Mr. Skog: That is it exactly. We have got to get the work done, and, the way it is, you have got to take some chances in order to get the work done. The Chairman: What is the result in the event you fail to get done the work that is assigned to you? 806 Mr. Skog: Well, they will say you are no ^ood — turn you in. The C'hairman: Vou would lose your job f Mr. Skog: Yes. Well, practically that way, because if you cannot get the work done, you delay these fast freights and if A'ou do that too often thev will sav '*Put that fellow awav some- where, pack him back somewhere, where he will be out of the way, and get somebody else." The Chairman: In that investigation, would it be a valid excuse to say that there was a storm or fog? Mr. Skog: Then thev would sav that the rules sav that you must go slower. The Chairman: AVliat I meant to say was, if you said the reason you went slow was due to a heavy fog or a snowstorm — Mr. Skog: It might be for once. I think if you kept that up they would soon get you otf the job. Mr. Stone: Does the fog get as thick in the official's office as it does down in the yard? Mr. Skog: I don't hardly think so. Mr. Stone : And, then, when he comes around in the morn- ing and finds that the trains aren't made up and the yard isn't cleared up, he wants to know why? Mr. Skog: Yes. Mr. Stone: One other question: Do you have a dinner hour in >oui- switching service there? Mr. Skog: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: You are not paid for that hour? Mr. Skog: No, sir. If we are paid, we have to be, accord- ing to the schedule, ready to go to dinner not later than 12:15 at noon or night; otherwise you don't get it. Then, we get thirty minutes for dinner and then go to work at the expiration of those thirty minutes. Mr. Stone: During that dinner hour do you turn your en- gines into the roundhouse or does a hostler take charge and you go and get a warm meal, or are you released wherever you hap- pen to be? Mr. Skog: Relieved where we are when 12 o'clock comes, without going to dinner. Mr. Stone: Are you released from responsibility for the engine? 807 Mr. Skog: There was an order issued at oue time, that the company would release us from all responsibility, still we cannot go anj^vhere because we have got to be right on that engine any- how. We all cany lunches because we do not know where we are going to get our dinner. Mr. Stone: Y^ou are just as liable to be caught at one point of the yard today and, tomorrow, somewhere else? Mr. Skog: Yes. Mr. Stone: Suppose it was a split run, one of these split tricks when you are called for 10 or 11 o'clock in the day and you quit at that time at night, what would they do then, pay continuous time? Mr. Skog: Yes, sir. The sixth hour would be the meal hour and they would get thirty minutes to eat lunch and be paid con- tinuous time. Mr. Stone: Paid continuous time on the split tricks? Mr. Skog: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: You understand, of course, that we are asking, under this arbitration, for continuous time; no time to be de- ducted? Mr. Skog: Yes, sir. Mr, Stone: In your judgment, do you think men should be paid continuous time? Mr. Skog: I most certainly think they should, and we had it on the Great Northern for eight years after the change from the twelve hour to the ten hour system, without one word being- said against it. Mr. Stone: You were paid continuous time? Mr. Skog: Yes, sir, we were, for eight years, and in that noon hour we had our lunch and oiled the engine and did certain odd jobs that might be required, and were ready to go to work promptly at one o'clock with the switching, so there was no delay on the switching at that time. Mr. Nagel: As a matter of practice, which rule do you obey, the rule to observe caution in a dense fog, or the demand to get your work done in spite of the dense fog? Mr. Skog: Well, myself, I am pretty cautious; but you see they are after the men so strong about getting this work done that the men will take chances, in spite of the rule, in order to get the work done. 808 Mr, Nagel : Isn't that tlie condition which obtains in almost all services of that kind — for instance, at sea, the captain deter- mines whether he will try to keep the record of his company or make sure that his passengers do not suffer? Mr. Skog: Well, I suppose it is. Mr. Nagel: It is a matter of judgment and discretion? Mr. Skog: Yes, sir. ^Ir. Xagel: And i)erhaps recklessness, but isn't it true that you have to ])rotect yourself chiefly against the impression that you suffer more from fog than somebody else does? Mr. Skog: I don't know. Mr. Nagel: Isn't there something in tliat? Mr. Skog: 1 don't know. Mr. Nagel : If you have only the reasonable amount of fog in your service, do you think there is any danger of an unjust record against you? .Mr. Skog: AVoU, yes — Well, now, I don't (]uite understand what you mean ? Mr. Nagel: 1 i)ut the question and I will repeat it again: if you have only a reasonable amount of foggy days — Mr. Skog: Yes. Mr. Nagel: Do you think that you are in any danger of having an unjust record made against you? Mr. Skog: No, I don't think so. No, I don't believe that I would be. Mr. Nagel : In other words, you are treated just about as other men would be treated under like conditions, and you have always the possibility of an unfair chief, that of course enters into all service? Mr. Skog: Yes. Mr. Nagel: And that is all there is to it? Mr. Skog: Yes, I g-uess so. But you take one man that tries to live up exactly to the rule as it is laid down and working on one of our fast jobs, that is making up these fast freight trains, if he don't take some chances at times there, why they are going to get him off of the job there, that is sure. Mr. Nagel: Well, another question: you work during the day? Mr. Skog: Yes, sir, I do. 809 Mr. Nagel : Day work and night work have the same com- pensation I Mr. Skog: They do now, 3^es. Mr. Nagel: For engineers and firemen? Mr. Skog: Yes. Mr. Nagel: Day work is easier and less hazardous? Mr. Skog: Yes, sir. Mr. Nagel: You prefer it? Mr. Skog: I prefer it, yes, sir. Mr. Nagel: Are you entitled to it by reason of seniority? Mr. Skog: Yes, sir. ' Mr. Nagel : You are the more experienced man under that rule? Mr. Skog: Well, yes. Mr. Nagel : So the more experienced man gets the lighter job? .^ ^ Mr. Skog : Well, that is the way it is. Mr. Nagel: And the more difficult and dangerous job is entrusted to a less experienced man; that is the rule, isn't it? Mr. Skog: Well, yes, but they all of them have got quite a bit of experience before they get to running one of these en- gines. Mr. Nagel: Still, it plight furnish a reason for different compensation for the more difficult job? Mr. Skog: Yes. Mr. Nagel: You work eleven hours? Mr. Skog : That is about what my time will average, about eleven hours, counting out the noon hour. If I count the noon hour it is twelve hours. Mr. Nagel: Would it be possible to automatically release you at the expiration of the ten hours? Mr. Skog : It certainly could be done very easily. Mr. Nagel: It could be? Mr. Skog: Yes, sir, in my position. Mr. Nagel: Do you think there are many instances in which it would not be easy to divide up the time? Mr. Skog: No, sir, not in yard work. I think it could be done all right. Mr. Nagel: I understood the last witness to say that he did not think it could be very well done. 810 Mr. Skoo-: Well, their conditions may be different than ours. Mr. Na.a:el: That is true, isn't it, that the last witness did so state? Mr. Stone: Yes, sir, l)iit 1 think there is this difference, if I may ex]ilain it : probably at the expiration of his ten hours he is over in some foreign yard. Mr. Nagel : I understand that, but I am directing the ques- tion — Mr. Stone: This is switching, and he was in transfer service. Mr. Nagel : Now, where the division can not be con- veniently made, he is able, of course, to earn his ten hours a day for an entire month, in a smaller number of days? Mr. Skog : Yes, sir. Mr. Nagel: The last witness said he worked twenty-one days. Mr. Skog: Yes. Mr. Nagel: At fourteen hours and a half a day, that amounts to something in the neighborhood of twentv-eight davs? 1^ in iiit^ ii'^i^iLffyjiiL^'Kjy^ vyx u.vviiu.. v^i^j Mr. Skog: Yes. Mr. Nagel: About that? Mr. Skog: Yes, sir; about that. Mr. Nagel : Tn other words, undergoing the hardship of a consecutive fourteen and a half hours a day, he has the cor- responding compensation of eight or nine days off absolutely? Mr. Skog: Yes, sir; that is true. Mr. Nagel : Are there any other compensations in your employment, assuming the risk and the hardship of it now, do you regard it as of advantage to have outdoor work? Mr. Skog: Being outside, do you mean? Mr. Nagel : Yes. Mr. Skog: Having the fresh air? Mr. Nagel: Yes. Mr. Skog: Well, I don't know; I always did like to be outdoors. Mr. Nagel : 1 wondered how this atmosphere in here, with the windows hermetically sealed, pleased you? Mr. Skog: Oh, I could be in the house, too, but I do prefer to be outdoors most of the time. 811 Mr. Nagel: Understand, I am not undertaking in any way to depreciate the hardships, and the risk, and the hazard of your employment. I think I get an impression of that, but I want to get your answer, whether there is anything to compensate in any sense, in the employment itself. Mr. Skog : No ; I think if 1 could do indoor work I might be satisfied with that, but 1 don't know. 1 have been in the outdoor service all my life. Mr. Nagel: Has the risk itself any charms for you? Mr. Skog : Well, no ; if I could get that amount of money without any risk, I certainly would take it. Mr. Nagel: You would prefer it? Mr. Skog: Yes. Mr. Nagel: That is all. Mr. Shea: Mr. Skog, what does your engine pay you now for ten hours? Mr. Skog: $4.50 for ten hours. Mr. Shea : Supposing this Board awarded a differential in the rates of pay for engineers between night and day work, would you, with this ditferential, apply for a night job? Mr. Skog: It would have to be an awful big differential before I would. Mr. Shea : Do you think '2 cents an hour would be an inducement ? Mr. Skog: No, sir; because I have given up a run that would pay me a great deal more than that. Mr. Shea : Well, assuming that the night run would pay you 2 cents an hour in excess of the day run, would it be an inducement to you? No, sir. That is all. Mr. Skog, do you have any accidents in the Mr. Skog: Mr. Shea Mr. Park vard? « Mr. Skog Mr. Park Mr. Skog: Myself, personally? No, I mean generally. Well, there are quite a few. We have had two men killed outriglit u]) there, and (piite a number of them have been hurt. Mr. Park: Do you work on heavy grades in any part of the yard? Mr. Skog: Part of the yard is (juite heavy, yes. 812 Mr. Park : Do you think, in railroading, that more damage is done to cars in the yards or on the road ? Mr. Skog: Well, I think they will probably average up the same. T don't think there is much difference. Mr. Park: Do you think that the risk is any greater on the Great Northern than on other roads ? Mr. Skog : No, I don 't think it is. Mr. Park: Do you think that the cost to the railroad for repairs on cars on the Great Northern is lower than on any other railroad in the United States, with perhaps one or two exceptions ? Mr. Skog: No, I don't know that. Mr. Park: Indicating that it is well managed and few accidents causing damages to cars, if that was true? Mr. Skog: Well, I am not in a position to know that. Mr. Park: That is all. Mr. Burgess: Mr. Skog, in your direct testimony, refer- ring to the difficulty of operating a locomotive at night, what was in your mind was to show a reason as to why you thought the service should receive greater compensation, rather than to make any complaint in regard to the discipline? Am I right in that? Mr. Skog : Yes, sir. Mr. Burgess : That is all. Mr. Stone : That is all. Mr. Sheean: I would just like to ask Mr. Skog as to the two men that you say were killed in the yard service there, whether either of them was an engineer or firemen? Mr. Skog: Both engineers. Mr. Sheean: Both engineers? Mr. Skog: Yes, sir, and the one that was hurt, it was just a short time ago, just before I left ; well, about a month before I left, the cars cornered him, cornered his engine. It was on the fireman's side, and the fireman just had time to holler for him .to jump that ''they are cornering us," and he had just got out on the window sill with his feet, and before he had a chance to take action himself, why the cars struck him and he went out there and broke a bone in his ankle. Mr. Sheean: Were those all at night? Mr. Skog : No, that one was in the davtime. Mr. Sheean day or night? Mr. Skog: ing. Mr. Sheean Mr. Skog: 813 : What were the other two ; were they in the One of them was on a foggy New Year's morn- What was the third one, night or day? Now, I think that was — well, I am not sure, but I think it was early in the morning. I don 't think it was hardly daylight, but I couldn't swear to that, certainly. Mr. Sheean: You do know that two out of the three of which, you have knowledge were in the daytime! Mr. Skog: Yes; one of them was on a foggy morning. Mr. Sheean : A foggy morning 1 Mr. Skog: Yes. Mr. Sheean: And you have no knowledge of any injuries to engineers or firemen at night in these yards? Mr. Skog: No, I haven't right now. In fact, I didn 't figure that anything of that kind was going to come up, or would be asked me, or I would have taken more pains to find out. Mr. Sheean: I did want to ask you, Mr. Skog, whether this larger engine taking the $4.50 rate, — whether you took that larger engine under your seniority rights? Mr. Skog: Yes, sir, I did. I took her on account of the amount of money that was paid. First, there wasn't any dif- ferential, you know, but when the differential came in, why I took the larger engine on account of the more pay. Mr. Sheean: What is the weight on drivers of this engine? Mr. Skog: Why, it is stencilled on the side of the cab, 180,000, but that is all I know about it. Mr. Sheean: 180,000? Mr. Skog: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean: So that with your experience as an engineer, would you rather run an engine weighing 180,000 pounds on drivers for $4.50 than you would to run a small, light engine at $4.25? Mr. Skog: On account of the money, yes. Mr. Sheean: Well, that is the twenty-five cents difference there? Mr. Skog: Yes. Mr. Sheean: In your judgment that more than covers the difference in the work? 814 Mr. Skog: Well, it covers it all right. I would rather have the money; that is what I have been looking for all the time. Mr. Sheean: Mr. Skog, how far a man can see in the yards up there, what the conditions as to fog are, what your .conditions as to operations are, the matter of discipline and investigation, and everything else, it is the same up there now as it was in 1910, isn't it? Mr. Skog: Practically so, yes. Mr. Sheean: The same management and same yards? Mr. Skog: Yes. Mr. Sheean: The same situation generally? Mr. Skog: Yes. Mr. Sheean: That is all. Mr. Stone: Mr. Skog, just one more question: Do you know what the w^eight on drivers is of that lighter switch engine ? Mr. Skog: Yes, sir, 135,000 pounds. Mr. Stone: 135,000 pounds I Mr. Skog: Yes. Mr. Stone: And the weight of the engine you run is what? Mr. Skog: 180,000. Mr. Stone: 180,000? Mr. Skog: Yes. Mr. Stone: If the weight on both engines was the same, which engine would you prefer? Mr. Skog: I would take the small one. Mr. Stone: That is all. (Witness excused.) The Chairman: Call your next witness. Mr. Stone: This is Mr. J. J. Burns, of the Kansas City Southern Railwav, Kansas Citv, Missouri. J. J. BURNS was called as a witness, and having been duly sworn, testified as follows: DIRECT EXAMINATION. Mr. Stone: You are at the present time in the employ of the Kansas City Southern Railway, Mr. Burns? Mr. Bums: Yes, sir. 815 Mr. Stone: How long have you been in that service? Mr. Bui'ns : As an engineer, I have been in that service six- teen years, switch engineer and transfer engineer. Mr. Stone: Sixteen years. Mr. Burns: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: Talk a little louder and talk plainly so they can get it. What class of service are you in at the present time ? Mr. Burns: Transfer service. Mr. Stone: What is the weight of the engine you are running ? Mr. Burns: 128,800 pounds on drivers. Mr. Stone: What rate of pay do you receive in transfer service'? Mr. Burns : $4.50 a day, ten hours or less. Mr. Stone: What is the rate of pay for switch engineers in that yard? Mr. Burns : $4.25 a day, ten hours or less. Mr. Stone: Regardless of class of engine! Mr. Burns : Regardless of class of engine. Mr. Stone: Then your company pays a higher rate for transfer than they do for switching! Mr. Burns: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone : What time are you required to report for duty? Mr. Burns : Thirty minutes before the leaving time or the starting time of our engine. Mr. Stone : Do you perform any service during these thirty minutes 1 Mr. Burns: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone : State to the Board what you do. Mr. Burns : Well, my duty is to inspect the engine, fill the lubricators, oil the engine around, and any other necessary work that should be done before the engine enters the service. Mr. Stone : By the rules of the company you are required to report thirtj^ minutes before leaving time? Mr. Burns: By virtue of our schedule we should be on our engines at least thirty minutes before the leaving time of the engine. Mr. Stone: For these thirty minutes, do you receive any pay? Mr. Burns : No, sir. 816 Mr. Stone: You do not? Mf . Burns : No, sir. Mr. Stone: When does your compensation begin? Mr. Burns : It begins at the time the engine is set to go to work. Mr. Stone : For example, if you were expected to go to work at seven o'clock, you would be required by your schedule to be on duty at 6:1^0, and your pay would begin from seven o 'clock ;' Mr. Burns : Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: In other words, you throw in thirty minutes for good measure every day? Mr. Burns: Volunteer service, yes, sir. Mr. Stone: On your run, at what time do you start to work ? Mr. Burns : 10 :30 A. M. Mr. Stone: You are on what is known, in railroad par- lance, as a split trick transfer run? Mr. Burns : It is designated on our rostrum where we mark the duty, as a ''half and half." Mr. Stone: A half and half? Mr. Burns : Yes, sir. Mr. Stone : '\\nien you say ' ' half and half, ' ' you don 't mean half work and half rest, do you? Mr. Burns: No, we mean half day and half night; and sometimes it is a little better than half night. Mr. Stono: At what time do vou usuallv finish your dav's work? Mr. Burns: Well, we usually finisli from 9:30 to 12:30. Mr. Stone: At night? Mr. Burns: At night. Mr. Stone: Do you finish, or, are you relieved by tlie yard master? Mr. Burns: We are relieved by the yard master, or by the fact that we have an article in the schedule or contract be- tween the Kansas City Southern and the Locomotive Engineers, that engineers will not be required to work longer than thirteen hours, only in cases of emergency, or live stock, or perishable freight. Mr. Stone: So that thirteen hours is the longest that vou I 817 can keep a man on in either the yard or transfer service, except in cases of emergency? Mr. Burns : Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: That rule is lived up to by the company? Mr. Burns : Well, not adhered to strictly. Since the sched- ule went into effect we have had a good deal of trouble to get them to live up to the rule. Mr. Stone: They want to work you longer? Mr. Burns : They want to work us longer and they do work us longer. AVe have Avorked fourteen hours in handling dead freight and in violation of the schedule. We have had a good deal of trouble, trying to get in on the expiration of thir- teen hours, since that went into effect. Mr. Stone: Are you ever relieved in less than ten hours? Mr. Burns : Possibly, in the last four years, there might be some few instances where we got in in less than ten hours. Mr. Stone: But they are very rare? Mr. Burns: We very seldom get in less tlian ten liours' service. Mr. Stone : Are you called to go to work, or do you report? Mr. Burns : I report. Mr. Stone : AYhat time do you leave your home ? Mr. Burns : On the position I am in, I leave home about 9 o'clock in the morning. Mr. Stone : And you usually get home at what time the next morning? Mr. Burns : About 12 :30, about that time. Mr. Stone: So, all you see of your family, and all the social life you have, is between 12:30 A. M. and 9 o'clock A. M., when you again report on duty, or start to report on duty? Mr. Burns : About all the time I see my family is between 8 o'clock in the morning and 9. As a rule, they are always asleep when I get home, and I never see them; and sometimes there is a week at a time that I won 't see my children at all, on account of the fact that, in school days, my oldest girl will have gone to school before I get up, and my youngest girl, I will pos- sibly see her thirty minutes before starting to school. Then, at night, when I get home, why they are all asleep, and I don't see them for a week at a time, only just an hour or thirty minutes, as the case may be. 818 Mr. IStoiie: Is there any part of your run that is made under train orders f Mr. Burns : Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: Then your responsibility is just as great as that of any other freight train, passing over the same track ? Mr. Burns : Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: Then, engineers in transfer service are re- quired to pass the same examination as engineers in freight ser^dce on your road? • Mr. Burns: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: Your company . employs a number of switch engineers, do they not! Mr. Burns : Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: Can you give to the Board any information as to tlie number of hours they are required to work? Mr. Burns: AYell, for instance, we will say that an engi- neer goes to work at 7 A. M., and is required to work the limit of liours provided by the contract; he w^ould tie up at 8 P. M. Now, in order to give that day's service, it will be neces- sary for him to get up about 4:30 or 5 o'clock in the morning, to get down to his engine and be there not later than 6 :30, and working then from 6:30 until possibly 8:15 before he would be finally relieved, under the tying up of his engine. That would be the number of hours that man would be on duty, and, as a rule, a good many of them work that number of hours. Mr. Stone: ^¥liat time Avould he probably get home at night, then, imder those conditions? Mr. Burns: It would be 9:30, that would be the best he could do before he could get home to his family. Mr. Stone: Under those conditions, that man would not be able to take his family and go out to any social entertain- ment of any kind, would he? Mr. Burns : No, sir. Mr. Stone : He would have to go to bed to get a little rest, in order to get up at 4:30 the next morning to get back at his hard work? Mr. Burns: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: Is it, you say, common for the engineers in the Kansas City Terminal to work that number of hours? Mr. Burns : It is a usual thing, a very common occurrence, 819 for the engineers to work thirteen hours a day and over thirteen hours a day, where they are handling perishable freight, or stock, or in cases of accidents or wash-outs, things of that nature. Mr. Stone: In your opinion, has the responsibility of the switch engineer increased since 1910? Mr. Burns : Yes, sir, I believe it has. Mr. Stone: Explain to the Board in your own way, why vou think it has increased. Mr. Burns : Well, I think the responsibility of the switch engineer has increased, due to the fact that they have installed larger engines ; in handling a larger engine you are handling a larger cut of cars. Mr. Stone: When you say a ''cut" of cars, you mean a train of cars ? Mr. Burns: Well, in yard service we term them as a cut of cars, a train of cars, a string of cars, or a drag of cars ; they have different terms for a train of cars. Mr. Stone : Talk a little louder, and a little slower, please. Has anything else occurred — Mr. Burns : I had not finished that. Mr. Stone : Pardon me. Gro ahead. Mr. Burns : In handling a longer train of cars, more skill has got to be used in switching, in order to avoid damage to equipment, by pulling out draw bars, or damage to draft gear, in any way ; and your signals in many instances are further away from you. You are looking through possibly a cloud of smoke blown across the train from another engine, and you are strain- ing your eyes, trying to find out whether a signal is for you or for someone else, at the end of that string of cars, in many cases. To my mind that has rather increased the responsibility of an engineer in the switching service. Now, the weight of the engine on the drivers has increased, which naturally has increased the braking power of the engine, and, in switching a cut of cars, you use nothing but the engine brake. You have got to be very careful in setting the engine brake, that you do not set it too quick, giving the engine the full braking power at one time, and jerking the slack out of this long string of cars, and causing a good deal of damage to cars and equipment. 820 Mr. StoiH': What is tlic type of engine that tliey use in switching service tliat weii^hs loO tons? Mr. Burns: The tyi)e of engine used in switcliing service in our yard is known as the Shay type. Mr. Stone: You have two of those engines'? Mr. Burns : Yes, sir ; we have one weigliing 151) tons, and one weighing ] 25 tons. Mr. Stone: Do you know of any Shay engines being in use in any other yards in your territory? Mr. Burns : No, sir, I do not. Mr. Stone : What rate of pay do engineers get for running this Shay engine? Mr. Burns -. They get $4.25 a day, regular switeli engine rates. Mr. Stone : I might add, for the information of the mem- bers of the Board, that in our exhibit of the different types of locomotives, we did not put in any photograph of tlie Shay type of locomotive, because, I must confess, I overlooked the fact that there were any of them in tlie w^estern service. They are a geared locomotive, and every wheel is driven with a gear and wheel; they are all drivers, tank and all. Mr. Park: They are hoisting engines, are they not! Mr. Stone : No, sir, they are not hoisting engines, but they will hoist a string of cars u]) a 7 per cent grade, if that is what you mean? Mr. Park : That is what I meant. Mr. Stone: And they have been known to climb a tele- graph pole backing u]). Mr. Burns, according to your evidence, or according to your statements, the engineers are required to work very long hours. Is it necessary for them to lay off in order to get the necessary rest ? Mr. Burns : Well, it has been necessary for me to lay off in order to take a rest, and I have known of instances where others have done tlie same thing. Mr. Stone: The fact remains that, with your long hours on duty, and the short time off duty, it does not give you the necessary rest to keep going week in and week out? Mr. Burns: No, sir; even in view of the fact that in the last five years, or about that time, I have worked very few Sun- 821 days. The ruu, or i)osition I am holding, does not work every Sunday, and I have found it necessary to lajr off Saturday and Sunday, in order to ))o able to — and in fact I did not feel I could work any longer without any rest. Mr. Stone: You had reached the limit of your endurance? Mr. Burns: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: How long have these two Shay locomotives been in service on your road? Mr. Burns: I can not give you the exact time; they en- tered the service there about two years ago, I think, possibly not that long, Mr. Stone : What al)out your meal hour on that transfer run, do you have a meal hour? Mr, Burns : AVell, we have a meal hour, yes, sir. Mr, Stone: Is the time paid continuous? Mr, Burns: No, sir. Mr. Stone: The hour is deducted? Mr. Burns: The hour is deducted; where you don't work the meal hour, or the hour that is designated for the meal hour. Mr. Stone: During that meal hour do you tie up just wher- ever it happens to be? Mr. Burns: Yes, wherever they would ask me to tie up for dinner, we tie up. Mr. Stone: No fixed point? Mr. Burns: No fixed point. We may have a point fixed by our actual w^ork, yet that point can be changed at any time. The yardmaster can say, get dinner here, there, or any i)lace he desires me to get dinner. Mr, Stone: Just as the work permits? Mr, Burns: Just as the work permits, Mr, Stone: During that meal hour are you relieved from the care and responsibility of the engine? Mr. Burns: No, sir. Mr, Stone: You are not? Mr, Burns: No, sir, Mr, Stone: You cannot turn your engine in somewhere to a hostler or to a roundhouse and go and get a warm meal? Mr. Bums: No, sir. Mr, Stone: You have to eat a cold lunch? Mr, Burns: Have to eat a cold lunch, yes, sir. 822 Mr. Stoue: Carry a lunch with you all the time? Mr. Burns: Yes, I have carried a cold lunch for the last twenty-one years, and I kind of changed my system in order to see if I could not relish the lunch a little more. I used to carry a dinner bucket for a long time, and it got so monotonous — Mr. Stone: You got so you hated the sight of it? Mr. Burns: Yes, I hated the sight of it, and one time I M^as carrying this dinner bucket home at night, empty — we go home empty — and I set it down in the aisle of the street car, and some fellow came along and kicked it the length of the car. and it Avas embarrassing for me to go and pick it up. After that time I began to carry it in a paper. A paper has got its advantages and disadvantages. When I look up in the box where this paper lunch is, it is dried up, it is pretty tough, but I have to eat it, there is no other way for me to do, so I manage to get along until I get home, or get in at night. Mr. Stone: Honestly, between ourselves, you don't call that living, do you? Mr. Burns : It is existing. Mr. Stone: I think that is all. CROSS-EXAMINATION. Mr. Sheean: Mr. Burns, on the days where you work five days a week and lay olf Saturday and Sunday, in order to get necessary rest, how much are you ordinarily paid? Mr. Burns: Ordinarily, where I would do that, I would be working the limit ever>- day, thirteen hours. Mr. Sheean: How long, thirteen hours? The limit is thirteen hours, yes. Seveiity-Hvo hours at forty-five cents an hour, Yes. All of this service that you render there in the transfer service is on a uniform basis of 45 cents an hour. Does it happen that sometimes you go in in less than ten hours? Mr. Burns: Sometimes. Mr. Sheean : You have not described just what this run was that you start out on at 10:30 in the morning and complete dur- ing the day. Just where do you go, and what do you do? Mr. Bums: We have a run known as the Sugar Creek, Mr. Burns: Mr. Sheean : is it? Mr. Burns : Mr. Sheean 823 transfer. This Sugar Creek transfer run is out to the Standard Oil Refinery at Sugar Creek, a distance of about ten miles from the starting point of the engine in the morning. We start at 10:30 A. M. and switch together a train of fifty empty oil tanks. We switch them on account of classifying them in order, in accordance with the directions of the Standard Oil orders on that day. When we get fifty oil tanks together, we proceed to Sugar Creek ; that is a distance of about seven miles from where we make up the train. Fifty cars is what we call doubling the train up the grade that we go into Sugar Creek. We will have to double the hill with fifty empty tanks, and after we get out there we will possibly have fifty loads to bring in. The same- Avork applies at Sugar C^reek getting those loads together that would in getting the empties together to start out with. Mr. Stone: May 1 interrupt? Mr. Sheean, did I under- stand you, that a man working five days of thirteen hours would work seventy-five hours? Mr. Sheean: If I did, 1 was wrong. I meant sixty-five hours. I am not responsible for what I say, talking hurriedly. Mr. Stone: I understood you to say seventy-five. Mr. Burns: I don't think I made that remark about any number of hours. Mr. Sheean : I did not do it intentionally. Mr. Stone: I understand. Mr. Sheean: Five times thirteen would be sixty-five, at forty-five cents an hour. Mr. Stone: Divide sixty-five by eight hours, and he would ha\'e worked eight and one-eighth days. Mr. Sheean : Going to work, that is, taking out your engine at 10:30 Monday morning, delivering that engine at 9:30 Friday night, and not again reporting for duty until the next Mon- day morning, that is, from 9:30 or 10:30, or whatever time it was on Friday night, that you completed the run, and not going to work again until Monday morning, where you lay off both Saturday and Sunday, that would produce to you ordinarily about $29.25 a week? Mr. Burns : I have not figured it up in that way at all. Mr. Sheean : That is, where you laid off both Saturday and Sunday, those are ordinarily the days on which you lay off, dur- ing the preceding week you worked five thirteen hour days? Mr. Burns : Mr. Sheean hour? Mr. Burns : Mr. Sheean 824 Possibly, all the time. .MI of those days for forty-five cents per Yes, sir. Whatever that would multiply would fairly rejn-esent your average earnings during the time, M;-. Burns? Mr. Burns: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean : As I have followed you, there is only eighteeji miles total distance from where you started in the morning — Mr, Burns: No, I said ten miles from \vhere I started in the morning until Sugar Creek. Mr. Sheean : And then you said the next move was eight miles more? Mr. Burns: No, I did not say that. Mr. Sheean : Pardon me, I am not clear about that. Ml*. Burns : 1 did not mean to convey that at all. Where we made up our train was about eight miles from Sugar Creek, two miles from the starting point. Mr. Sheean : Coming back over the same route from Sugar Creek towards Kansas City? Mr. Burns: We come back over the same route as we go out, with fifty loads, about fifty, owing to the volume of business on that day. It runs thirty to fifty loads. Mr. Sheean : Your total mileage then is about eighteen per day? Mr. Burns: Mv total mileage would be about fortv miles a day, because we make two round trips. Mr. Sheean: You make two round trips a day? Mr. Burns: Yes. Mr. Sheean : I did not intend to interrupt you, Mr. Burns, in your description of the work that you did after leaving Sugar Creek, getting back this distance of eight miles. Then, you were in the middle of a descri])tion of that work that you did there at that time when the interruption came. Mr. Burns : T don't remember wdiether I was in the middle, or completed. Mr. Sheean: After the completion of that work there, about w^hat hour does that ordinarily bring you to the next run ? Mr. Burns: Do you mean the first round trip? Mr. Sheean: Yes, the first round trip. 825 Mr. Burns: The first round trip would get us into the terminal, into the yard at Kansas City, usually about 4 or 4 :30, owing to the volume of business handled at that time. The less the number of cars the earlier we get in, and the greater the number of cars, the later we get in. Mr. Sheean: In the usual operation of that particular run, do you take your lunch about the time of the completion of this first trip, before starting on the second round trip? Mr. Burns: We eat lunch at the completion of the first round trip. Mr. Sheean : Under your schedule, you are entitled to take one full hour for that lunch? Mr. Burns: One full hour. Mr. Sheean: Between what hours? Mr. Burns : On that run, my dinner hour would commence at 3:30 and end at 4:30. If I worked thirty minutes of that hour, I would be paid the actual minutes. Should I work over thirty minutes, I would be paid for the full hour. Mr. Sheean : That is, Mr. Burns, if between certain desig- nated hours — that is, six hours from the time you started to work — they could not carry you more than six hours beyond the time you started to work without giving you one hour for the meal, could they? Mr. Burns: May I recite to you the reason of our noon hour schedule? Mr. Sheean : Yes, if you please. Mr. Burns : The agreement between the engineers and the Kansas City Southern in regard to the meal hour is as follows — I quote the rule : "The sixth hour will be knoAvn as the meal hour, and switch engineers shall be permitted to take this hour for meals, except in cases of casualty in the yard and the crew is engaged in clear- ing the same, or other emergencies, such as handling live stock and perishable freight. Should switch engineers be required to remain on duty for thirty minutes or less after the beginning of the sixth hour, they will be paid for the actual minutes worked, and if kept on duty over thirty minutes and less than one hour, they will be paid one hour. "In no case shall switch engineers be compelle'f>n been in the transfer service ? Mr. Lea: About five vears. Mr. Stone: What class of engine are you running f Mr. Lea: Class R-1. Mr. Stone: Well, what does that mean, on the North West- em; what is an R-1, a ten wheeler? Mr. Lea: It is a ten wheeler, six wheels connected with the truck, the engine truck. Mr. Stone: What is the weight of this engine on drivers, Mr. Lea? Mr. Lea: 126,000 pounds. Mr. Stone : That would make quite a good sized engine, an engine with probably 21 or 22 by 26? Mr. Lea: 21 bv 26. Mr. Stone: Cylinders? Mr. Lea: Yes. Mr. Stone: What rate of pay do you receive for this service ? Mr. Lea: 41V' cents per hour. Mr. Stone: That is the switching rate of pay? Mr. Lea: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: I wish you would describe to this Board, in your own waj", the character of the service you are required to perform — what time do you report for duty? Mr. Lea: At about 6:10 or 6:15. Mr. Stone: What time are you required to leave? Mr. Lea : Seven o 'clock. Mr. Stone: Then, if I understand correctly, you report for duty about forty or forty-five minutes before the time you are required to leave? Mr. Lea: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: What do you do in that forty-five minutes? Mr. Lea: Get my supplies, carry them over to the round- house, register, look over the bulletin board, get the engine ready, fill the lubricators, screw down the grease cups, get the engine out of the house, blow off the boiler, and take water. Mr. Stone: Did I understand you to say you take the en- gine out of the house? Mr. Lea: Yes, sir. 845 Mr. Stone : Then you hostle your own engine in the morn- ing? . Mr. Lea: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: Well, how much do you receive for all that forty-five minutes'? Mr. Lea: Nothing, Mr. Stone: Nothing! Mr. Lea: No, sir. Mr. Stone: Your time of pay does not begin until 7 o'clock. Mr. Lea : 7 o 'clock. Mr. Stone : All right, now, at 7 o'clock when you are ready to leave the w^ater crane, or the pen stock, as you call it, on the North Western, what do you do ? Mr. Lea : Go up in the yard. Mr. Stone: Where at? Mr. Lea : At 40th Street, 40th Street Yard. Pump up the train, test our brakes and leave. Mr. Stone : Leave for where I Where do you go then I Mr. Lea : For North Avenue. Mr. Stone: What distance is that? Mr. Lea : About ten miles. Mr. Stone: Well, after you arrive there, what do you do I Mr. Lea : We cut our engine oif from the train, get water, couple up our train and get ready to come back again and come back. Mr. Stone : Do I understand that you do not do any switch- ing at either end of that trip? Mr. Lea: No, sir. Mr. Stone: The train is made up for you? Mr. Lea: Yes, sir. , Mr. Stone: And when you arrive at North Avenue the switch engine takes care of your train? Mr. Lea : Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: Then you are really a freight train, are. you? Mr. Lea: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: Yet you are paid switching pay? Mr. Lea: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: Then you come back from North avenue and what do you do? Mr. Lea : We usually have a straight train for 40th Street. 846 SometiiiK^s wo have not, and fill out the train by picking up at Mayfair. Mr. Stone : All right ; go ahead and describe what you do — vou come back to 40th Street? Mr. Lea: We come back to 40th Street. Mr. Stone : Then, what do you do ? Mr. Lea: Cut off the train, pick up the way car, go to the roundhouse for coal and water, dump our ash pan, go out into the yard again, put our way car in another train, and sometimes double from one track to another, and leave for North avenue. Mr. Stone : That is the second trip ! ^- . Mr. Lea : That is the second trip. Mr. Stone : And you always get your train out, or do you liave the assistance of helpers at times ? Mr. Lea: We have the assistance of helpers most of the time. Mr. Stone: The train is so heavy your engine will not handle the train out of the yard? Mr. Lea: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: Well, going out on the second trip, where do you set cars out at? Mr. Lea: Occasionally at Mayfair and at Hetler's lead. That is a regular thing, to set cars out on this track at Hetler's lead. Mr. Stone : When you get to North avenue on the second trip, then you go through the same performance of cutting the engine off and turning again? Mr. Lea : Exactly. Mr. Stone: Or don't you turn the engine? Mr. Lea : We don 't turn the engine. We back up one way, h.ead over and back up one way. Mr. Stone : And get a train again and come back to 40th street yard? Mr. Lea: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: That is the second round trip you have made? Mr. Lea: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: Now, when you get back on the second trip, wliat do you do then? Mr. Lea: We get a train off of track 19 and transfer it to another vard. 847 Mr. Stone: How far away? Mr. Lea : Well, the movement would require possibly half or three-quarters of a mile, joulling them down from one yard and shoving them ahead in another. Mr. Stone: Then, after vou have delivered this train to the other yard, then what? Mr. Lea: Put our way car away and then go home. Mr. Stone: Well, you do more before you go home, don't 'you — -you go to the roundhouse first with your engine? Mr. Lea: Yes, put the engine in on a designated track, look her over, put our oil cans and supplies away, go up to the roundhouse and register, and make out necessary reports. Mr. Stone : Well, in doing all of this work that you have described, do you use the main line in doing this? Mr. Lea: All the time. Mr. Stone: All main line work? Mr. Lea: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone : Wliat mileage do you make daily, on the aver- age? Mr. Lea: About forty miles. Mr. Stone: On the main line? Mr. Lea : On the main line. Mr. Stone: How many hours do you work daily? Mr. Lea: Eleven hours. Mr. Stone: Does any part of your day's work consist of yard switching? Mr. Lea: No, sir. Mr. Stone: About how much of this transfer service is there on the Chicago & North Western, in Chicago? Mr. Lea: About twenty-two runs, I think. Mr. Stone : We would understand from that that there are twenty- two crews doing this same character of work? Mr. Lea: Practically the same. Mr. Stone: I think that is all, Mr. Sheean. CROSS EXAMINATION. Mr. Sheean: Mr. Lea, all of these movements that you make here, from day to day, are inside what is known as the Chicago Switching District, aren't they? Mr. Lea: Chicago Terminal. 848 Mr. Sbeeaii: Chicago Termiual District, which is smaller even than tlio Chicago Switcliing District, isn't it? Mr. Lea: Well, I would judge it is the same thing. Mr. Sheean : Tlie movements you have described are from one yard of the Chicago & North Western to another yard? Mr. Lea: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean: And the movement after the second round trip, the last movement of the day, is taking a train from one part of the yard over to another part of the same yard, isn't it? I understood you to say that it involved altogether one-half to three-quarters of a mile in going over and backing up — is that all in what is known as the one yard? I don't care partic- ularly as to whether there are different leads there, but do yon speak of that as all the one j'ard? Mr. Lea : That is all in one yard. The tracks are all as- sembled in that district. Mr. Sheean: Now, on how many of these tracks that you move on, do any passenger trains operate? Mr. Lea : On how many tracks ? Mr. Sheean: Yes. Mr. Lea: All of them. Mr. Sheean : All passenger trains on the Chicago & North Western go over the same tracks on which you make this move- ment between the two yards? Mr. Lea: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean: And, between the North Avenue transfer or the North Avenue yard and the 40th Street yard, how many main tracks are there? Mr. Lea: From Clybourn Junction to Mayfair, there are three main tracks, from Mayfair to 40th Street there are two. Mr. Sheean : And you do not get any train orders in mov- ing from one to the other of these yards? Mr. Lea: No, the tracks are equipped with block signals. Mr. Sheean : Over all the part that you run, it is all under block, isn't it? Mr. Lea: From Mayfair to Hunting Avenue, a distance of about five miles. Mr. Sheean : Now, you say you have been an engineer fot over twenty-five years? Mr. Lea: Yes, sir. 849 Mr. Sheean: With the Chicago & North Western all this timef Mr. Lea: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean: Running on the road a part of the time? Mr. Lea: A part of the time. Mr. Sheean: And what run were you on, Mr. Lea, when you were on the road? Mr. Lea : I was not in road service long enough to have a regular run. Mr. Sheean: Well, on what division of the railway was your run? Mr. Lea : Galena Division. Mr. Sheean: That is running from Chicago to Freeport? Mr. Lea : Clinton and Freeport. Mr. Sheean: How long were you on the road? Mr. Lea: A very short time — Oh, possibly two or three months altogether. Mr. Sheean: Two or three months altogether? Mr. Lea: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean: How long have you been in yard service? Mr. Lea : All of the rest of the time. Mr. Sheean: Well, you started in, did you, originally, as a road fireman ? Mr. Lea: No, I started in as a switch engine fireman. Mr. Sheean: Switch engine fireman? Mr. Lea : Yes. Mr. Sheean : How long did you fire a switch engine ? Mr. Lea : I fired four years and a half altogether. Mr. Sheean: Part of that in switching and part on the main line? Mr. Lea: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean: And then, when you were promoted to engi- neer, did you run an engine on the main line ? Mr. Lea : Yes, sir, part of the time. Mr. Sheean: For a few months, I believe? Mr. Lea: Yes. Mr. Sheean : Well, this work that you have in yard service, did you select that under your seniority? Mr. Lea: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean: Back, twenty years ago? 850 Mr. Lea: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean: Very shortly after you became eligible to road service? Mr. Lea: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean: So that the selection of this work here in Chicago in switching service, was of yonr own volition, twenty- one years or more ago. Mr. Lea: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean: Now, yard service and the transfer service here in Chicago, within the Chicago Terminal District, are interchangeable in seniority, aren't they? Mr. liea : Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean: And, is the seniority in the yard separate from the seniority on the road? Mr. Lea : Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean : But, a road man may exercise his seniority in the yards if he wishes ? Mr. Lea: No, sir. Mr. Sheean: Not now? Mr. Lea: We have a terminal division that is a separate and distinct division. A man cannot come from another division into the terminal division any more than I could go from the terminal division onto a foreign division. Mr. Sheean: Well, I was wondering, Mr. Lea, whether, back twenty years ago, that was the situation, when you exer- cised your rights and took a switch engine — I understood you to say that was your own selection? Mr. Lea : Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean : And you could, at that time, have gone into yard service, or retained your road rights? Mr. Lea : At that time. Mr. Sheean : If you wanted them ? Mr. Lea : Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean : But, since that time, the seniority in the yard is separate from the seniority on the road? Mr. Lea: Yes, sir, in this division, this terminal division. Mr. Sheean : Now, you ran a switch engine in the switching service here in Chicago until some two or three years ago, when you took this transfer run? Mr. Lea : About five years ago. 851 Mr. Sheean : About five years ago 1 ... Mr. Lea : Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean: You have had the same transfer run all this time? '. Mr. Lea : Oh, no. Mr. Sheean : You have had different runs I Mr. Lea : Yes. Mr. Sheean : The transfer run that you have described here is one that you have been on about how long? Mr. Lea : Something over a year. Mr. Sheean: Do your rights here in the terminal. district, seniority rights, cover suburban runs? Mr. Lea: No, sir. Mr. Sheean: You are not eligible for promotion to any suburban run in that district? Mr. Lea : No, sir. Mr. Sheean : Limited simply to the switching service ? Mr. Lea: No, we have a work train service. The work trains that are within the limits of the terminal division, that is our work ; our work is not limited to switch engine service alone. Mr. Sheean : Any work then, in the way of track elevation, or anything of that sort, that is done within this terminal dis- . trict, belong to the men in the terminal district? Mr. Lea : Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean: The switch engineers? Mr. Lea : Yes, sir., , Mr. Sheean : About wiiat time, ordinarilv, Mr. Lea, do vou get through work each day ? Mr. Lea: Well, from ]ialf past four until six o'clock, Mr. Sheean : And about what time, or where, ordinarily, do you get your lunch on the run that you have at the present, time? Mr. Lea: For the convenience of the company as well as our own, we do not stop for lunch. We go to work and we make our two round trips as quickly as possible, because in that dis- trict, the Wisconsin Division, the traffic is congested, there are many passenger trains, and if you do not get out of there by a certain time in the afternoon, we have to lay there until seven o'clock at night, the passenger trains are so thick that we can- not get out with a freight train ; and, in order to get this work 852 done, wheu we can get over these tracks, we go right aloug and get through with the two trips as soon as we can. Mr. Sheean: Then, after you have completed those two trips, whatever time you take — it would take about a day in the way that you operate on that particular line? Mr. Lea: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean: There is no particular schedule provision as to a certain length of time for eating on that run? Mr. Lea: No, sir. Mr. Sheean: As a matter of practice what do you do? You have something to eat, some time? Mr. Lea: There is an article in the schedule that says we shall have thirty minutes between the hours of 11:30 and 1 o'clock, but this is an agreement between this particular crew and the yardmaster to do this work when we can and get through with it. Mr. Sheean: And get through Avith it? Mr. Lea: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean: You have practically, then, a fixed assign- ment there, have you, Mr. Lea, on this particular run? If you get through with it at 4:30, well and good, if it runs until 6 o'clock you are paid for the full time of eleven hours a day for that? Mr Lea: Yes, eleven hours a day. Mr. Sheean: Whether you get through at four o'clock or six, or do you get overtime after 4:30? Mr. Lea: Overtime after 6 o'clock. Mr. Sheean: After 6 o'clock? Mr. Lea: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean: For the mutual convenience of all concerned there you trj' to get these particular runs completed, and when that is done your day's work is done? Mr. Lea: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean: Sometimes it is 4:30, other times it runs up to 6f Mr. Lea : Yes, sir, and sometimes later. Mr. Sheean: After 6, then there would be overtime paid? Mr. Lea: Yes. Mr. Sheean : But if you get through with it at 4 :30 in the afternoon you are paid eleven times 42^ cents? 853 Mr. Lea : Yes, sir Mr. Sheean : Each day ? Mr. Lea : Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean: Is that six days in the week that that oper- ates? Mr. Lea: It works some Sundays. Mr. Sheean: Some Sundays'? Mr. Lea: About half of the time, I should imagine, all days with the exception of two Sundays a month. That is about as it runs. Mr. Sheean: On Simdays the lengtli of time for it is about the same, is it? Mr. Lea: Just about the same. Mr. Sheean: That is some special arrangement for pay- ing eleven hours for that particular run, that particular job there, is it? Mr, Lea: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean: This run was chosen by you as furnishing pretty regular and steady employment? Mr. Lea: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean : I suppose a part of this time, during the day, from the time you go to work until you are relieved in the after- noon, you are waiting to have a clear track to make this run of ten miles? Mr. Lea: Yes, we have to wait until we get time to go ahead of the passenger train. Mr. Sheean: Mr. Lea, you say you don't do any switching, and you run altogether about forty miles during the day, so that, if there is no switching done, and your total run is only forty miles in this spread of time, you are waiting for the chance to make the run back and forth between those yards, are you not? Mr. Lea: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean: A considerable part of the time! Mr. Lea: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean: That is all. EE-DIRECT EXAMINATION. Mr. Stone: During that time you are waiting, Mr. Lea, you are on duty all of that time, are you not? 854 Mr. Lea: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: And held responsible for the engine? Mr. Lea: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: Coming back to the question of selecting that run, in regard to that, you selected it because it was one of the best runs there was in that class of service? Mr. Lea: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone : I think you said in reply to Mr. Sheean's ques- tion, that, after you had made those two round trips, you took a train from one part of the yard to another. Is it not a fact, that they are separate, those North Western yards, in the classi- fication of the North Western; one is known as the break up yard and the other is known as the swamp yard? Mr. Lea: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone : Going back to that question of holding seniority on both the road and in the yard, is it not a fact that, on the North Western, for a number of years, on the Wisconsin Divi- sion, the men held rights, both in the terminal and on the road? Mr. Lea: Yes. Mr. Stone : In other words, is it not a fact, that that com- pany segregated the yard from the road service, a few years ago ? Mr. Lea: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: And compelled the men to make their choice as to which one they wanted to go to? Mr. Lea: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: It was not the request of the men? Mr. Lea: No, sir. Mr. Stone: It was forced on them by the company? Mr. Lea: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: That is all. Mr. Park: At the time that separation was made, could you not have stayed in road service, if you had so elected? Mr. Loa: I think so. I didn't make any application. Mr. Park: That would have made you eligible to any train in road service, under the order of your seniority? Mr. Lea: Yes, sir. Mr. Park: That is all. The Chairman: Anything further? Mr. Nagel: Mr. Lea, you are clear that if you were to I 855 devote sixty hours at 45 cents, you would rather do the work in six days of ten hours each than in five days of twelve hours each! Mr. Lea: I would, yes. Mr. Nagel: You think that is the universal opinion? Mr, Lea: T think it is. Mr. Nagel: But, it is true, is it not, that there are situa- tions where the ten hour a day rule can not be literally observed, and where the situation has to be met by the allowance of over- time? . Mr. Lea : I don 't know as to that. Mr. Nagel : Are there not situations where it would not be feasible to have the engineer leave his engine, at the end of ten hours? Mr. Lea: Well, I couldn't say. It seems to me as though it could be arranged, all right. Mr. Nagel: Is it the purpose of your demand here in ask- ing for an allowance for an overtime, to secure compensation for work beyond ten hours, and also to discourage the practice of keeping men engaged after ten hours ? Mr. Lea: Yes, sir. Mr. Nagel: Would it be feasible at all, to have the dif- ferent assignments among engineers rotate from time to time, instead of keeping one engineer at the same assignment all the time? Mr, Lea: Would it be? Mr. Nagel: Would it be feasible to have assignments ro- tate so as to give engineers the night work for a time, and day work for a time ? Mr. Lea: I don't think it would be agreeable to the men, Mr, Nagel: Pardon? Mr, Lea: I don't think it would be agreeable, Mr, Nagel: It would interfere with seniority, would it not? Mr, Lea: Yes, sir, Mr. Nagel : Is that the only objection to it ? Mr. Lea : No, I think there would be other objections. Mr. Nagel : Practical objections ? Mr. Lea: Yes, I think so. The Chairman: I cannot get many of your answers. I wish you would speak a little more distinctly. 856 Mr. Nagel: Would it lead to confusion? Mr. Lea: I think it would. Mr. Nagel: In other words, you think it would meet with practical objection and practical difficulties. Mr. Lea: I didn't get that. Mr. Nagel : You think it would meet with practical difficul- ties? Mr. Lea : Yes, I think it would. Mr. Nagel: It not only would he undesirable on the part of the engineers themselves, who want to keep the positions they have, but it Avould not operate satisfactorily so far as the man- agement itself was concerned ! Mr. Lea: Well, I don't think it would. Mr. Park: A little louder, please. Mr. Lea: I don't think it would be satisfactory to the men; neither do I think it would be to the best interests of the com- pany. Mr. Nagel: You don't think it would? Mr. Lea: No. Mr. Nagel: That is all. The Chairman: Call your next witness, Mr. Stone. Mr. Stone : That is all. (Witness excused.) Mr. Stone: Before calling the next witness, I should like to olfer as Exhibit 16, a photographic copy of an exhibit that was filed by the Conference Committee of Managers in the recent arbitration with the Trainmen and Conductors, in the Eastern Territory. In explanation, I want to say that I have not checked these rates at all. I take it for granted, of course, that they are cor- rect, because they were presented as an exhibit by the Confer- ence Committee of Managers; and these are simply photographic reproductions made on a photostat, reading, as follows: "Conference Committee of Managers. Eastern Territory. New York. Present rates of pay. Conductors and Trainmen. Western Territory. Switching service. ' ' It is introduced, for the purpose of showing to the Board, the fact that conductors and switchmen in yard service at night, are paid a higher rate in the Western territory. You will see 857 the rate running all the way through. It was introduced by the Managers as one of their exhil)its. I only have two extra copies, Mr. Sheean. Mr. Shea : Mr. Stone, does this cover all roads in the pres- ent Arbitration? Mr. Stone: I have not checked it, but I think so. I am requested, by the other side, to make it very plain that it was a different Conference Committee of Managers that presented this exhibit, from the ones here. Mr. Shea : Probably, Mr. Stone, the situation was entirely different at the time this was presented. Mr. Stone : Yes, it was different then. They were trying to prove that the Eastern men were not entitled to anything. We are simply using, therefore, some of their own ammunition. (The document, so offered and identified, was received in evidence and thereupon marked *' Employes' Exhibit No. 16, December 10, 1914.") Mr. Stone: Now, Mr. Chairman, I had expected to con- tinue with the present switching engineers, but, unfortunately, two of the men are not here ; so I am going to digress and put on a man from heavy freight service. I will call Mr. Jones. I want to say, Mr. Chairman, for Mr. Jones, that he comes from the Shasta division of the Southern Pacific, what is known as the Tunnel Division. And, I will say this while he is living, — you know we generally wait until a man is dead and then say nice things about him ; here is one of our crack men. There may be other engineers just as good; there are no engineers any better. C. E. D. JONES was called as a witness and having been duly sworn, testified as follows : DIRECT EXAMINATION. Mr. Stone: Now, Mr. Jones, I hope you will talk loud enough so they can hear you. Mr. Jones: All right. I will make an effort. Mr. Stone : You will talk louder than that if you do. This is digressing for a minute, but the thing that impresses me is the weak voices our engineers have here. But, when you get them out in actual practice they can tell a conductor what they SoS Mr. Jones : Mr. Stone: Mr. Jones : Mr. Stone: Mr. Jones: Mr. Stone: th^Tl\z of y^^rn forty ears away and they can hear them all the time. Mr. Xagel : We do not need as impressive a method as that. Mr. Stone: Mr. Jones, what class of service are you in! Helper service. That is, freight and helper service ? Freight, passenger and all kinds of service. How long have you been in this service ! In this service, about three years. When you say helper service, I think perhaps you had better explain to the Board what you mean by helper service. Mr. Jones : I am assigned to service, working on a schedule of ten hours a day or less : and the purpose of the helper engi- neer is to assist all trains over the grade, either freight or passenffer. GeneraUy there are a number of men assigned to this serv- ice at different helper stations, and they run first in first out, as it is called in this service. I may help a passenger train on the first trip on the front ; and on the second trip I may be on the rear end of a passenger train, and on the first trip I might be fourth to the end of a freight train, and on the second trip I might be the fifth engine on the freight train. It depends alto- gether on the service we are called uj)on to perform. Mr. Stone: And you have been the sixth engine on a freight train! Mr. Jones : Yes, I have been the sixth engine on a freight train in this through freight service. Mr. Nagel : What road is this. Southern Pacific. Shasta Division. Yes, running from Dunsmuir. Running from where? Dunsmuir, California, to Ashland, Oregon. What class of engine do you run? We have three classes of engines in this serv- ice. The Consolidation, 22 by 30, 187,000 pounds on the drivers. Then there are the Mikados, 2334 by 30, 186,000 pounds on the drivers. Mr. Jones: Mr. Stone: Mr. Jones : Mr. Stone: Mr. Jones: Mr. Stone: Mr. Jones: 859 Then the superheated Mikado, 23?4, 187,000 pounds on the drivers. Mr. Stone: Don't you have a Mikado weighing 207,000 pounds ? Mr. Jones : Xo, we have nothing over the 187,000 pK)unds- Mr. Stone : Has there been any increase in tonnage rating for these engines since 19101 Mr. Jones: There has been no change, not as shown by the timetable, but there has through instruction. The Mikado engines have been placed in service on our division since 1910. They handle about 90 M 's, over what the Consolidations did at that time. Mr. Stone: When you say 90 M's, what do you mean by that? Mr. Jones: Our tonnage is not tons. It is M's; thousand pormds. Mr. Stone : In other words, you handle 90,000 j)ounds ? Mr. Jones : Yes. that is, 45 tons more than a Consolidation. Mr. Stone: I understood you to say that the published rating of the Consolidation engine is the same now as it was in 1910* Mr. Jones: Xo, it was 695, I believe, in 1910. and 710 at the present time, if I am not mistaken. Mr. Stone: Did you always handle the tonnage rating in 1910? Mr. Jones: Xo. we handled, as a rule, S5 per cent; but now we take full tonnage, over if necessary, to get the full ton- nage. That is slightly. We couldn't pull anything much over 50 M 's or we will say 25 tons, something like that. If they put in any more we set out a car. Mr. Stone : Has there been any material change in condi- tions on account of the larger engines running through tunnels ? Mr. Jones : Yes, sir. Mr. Stone : How manv tunnels have vou on the mountain there ! Mr. Jones: On this one district, 107 miles, there are five tunnels : sixteen on the division of 207 miles. Mr. Stone : On the Siskiyou grade, how many tunnels have you there, Siskiyou Mountain? Mr. Jones : We have four. 860 Mr. Stone: In a distance of what? Mr. Jones: Seventeen miles — eighteen miles. Mr. Stone : In the early days when these tunnels were con- structed, they were built to fit the power of those days, were they not? Mr. Jones : Small power, yes. Mr. Stone : How much clearance have you with the present Mikado engines on a straight track? Mr. Jones : I should judge, as near as I could judge, there is in the tunnels probably about seventeen to twenty- two inches side clearance, possibly thirty-six inches from the stack to the roof of the tunnel. Mr. Stone: With that small clearance, don't it get pretty hot on the fourth, fifth and sixth engines ? Mr. Jones: It is impossible to get through there without the assistance of what is called a respirator. Mr. Stone: I wish you would show to tlie Board what a respirator is and how it is used in going through a tunnel, if you will. (The witness here produced a respirator and exhibited the same to the Board.) Mr. Jones: This is the apparatus we use to go through there. Mr. Stone : Show them how it works. Mr. Jones : Inside of that funnel there is a sponge. Mr. Stone : You wet it with water, or ice, in there in the summer time, beneath the sponge, and then this hose is attached to the main reservoir for air. The air is compressed in this main reservoir for breaking purposes, usually at 130 pounds pressure, so this pipe here enters the reservoir, the air pipe leads from the main reservoir, and when you enter these tunnels you put that up to your face, like that, and regulate the flow of air through here, make it as strong as you can, an '1 that of course, passing through this wet sponge supplies air so as to enable you to breathe when coming through this place. We use it on all engines on freight trains, and the second and third engines on passenger trains. Mr. Stone: That respirator is furnished to you by the company ? Mr. Jones : By the company, yes, sir. 861 Mr. Stone: They recognize that it is necessary to use something of that sort? Mr. Jones : Yes, they find it is if they want to put five and SLJ^ engines on a train. With the smaller poAvor of years ago of course they did not need that. Mr. Sheean : Does that cover your eyes? Mr. Jones : Yes, sir. Mr. Shea ; Just put it on so we can see how it is. Mr. Jones : Over both eyes. Mr. Stone : You are blindfolded going through there. Mr. Jones : You could not see anything anyway, on account of the smoke and steam. We have taken the temperature on the fourth engine. We have never been able to get it for the fifth. Mr. Stone : What is the matter. Does the thermometer break on the fifth engine? Mr. Jones : Yes, sir. It registered to 160 degrees on the fourth engine after coming out of the tunnel far enough so that you could read the register, get the register. Mr. Nagel: Doesn't that metal get hot? Mr. Jones: Yes, sir. Any part of you that is exposed, if you are over four or five minutes going through that tunnel, wdll blister. Mr. Nagel : Have you some special arrangement for fasten- ing that in there? Mr. Jones : It screws right into a nipple. Mr. Stone: Connected up with this pipe from the main reservoir ? Mr. Jones : Yes, sir. Mr, Stone : That main reservoir, whatever comes through there after a while lias a little flavor of burnt oil and quite a good deal of heat? Mr. Jones: Yes. Of course that compresses the air out- side of the tunnel, and as the compressor works in the tunnel and compresses this gas, or fumes, or smoke, or whatever is in there, why, it is forced through that sponge, Init it is sort of l)urified in passing through the sponge. Mr. Stone: It tastes pretty good l)y the time you get through? Mr. Jones: It helps some. 862 Mr. Stone : Do ] iiiuleistand you to say tliat the record of teiii]iQratnre on tlie fourtli engine was 160 degrees? Mr. Jones : Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: In the winter? Mr. Jones: That is, going through there in about four Hiinutes. If you were six or seven minutes it would run up probably to 190 or 200, soniewliere up in there. We have never been able to take it. Mr. Stone: Have you ever been overcome with heat in this tunnel, or smotliered in there? Mr. Jones : I have. 1 died once. Mr. Stone: You were dead all right, were you? Mr. Jones : I was dead. Mr. Stone! Explain to this Board what happened? Ml'. Jones: Well, we were on a five engine freight train, I was the fourth engine in the train — and by the way, it was Fri- day, we had thirteen cars behind the pusher, and we were going to Siskiyou for train thirteen. It all goes to help some. So we never go to this place Siskiyou, that is at the summit, and the switch is right at the east entrance to the tunnel ; tunnel 13 ; the longest tunnel we have, 3,120 feet long. It is a rule, not only with the men, but the company don't want the train to go there to take the siding, but the siding west of this Siskiyou is about a mile and a half from the tunnel, and in leaving this station, White Point, there is a station between White Point and this tunnel, and Siskiyou, where we were to meet this passenger train. We all presumed, or thought, we had ample time to go to Siskiyou and hold the main track against this train 13; but for some reason more time was consumed than we expected, and the head engineer, the leading man, who controlled the train, was in doubt as to whether he would have time to go down the main track and clear this passenger train, so he stopped the head end to take the siding. The two head engines were just outside of the tunnel, just room to clear the track. The three rear en- gines were in the tunnel. Of course, w^hen the train stopped I realized that we would not get out, and my fireman was noted for having plenty to say, and I thought when he went out it was off, that he was gone. I could not hear him anyway, and then I remembered going over, there was a work train there, and I thought it might be that they had their train up on the siding, 863 and if that was the case, of course we could not get into the sid- ing; they could not get out of the way, and that we would none of us get out of there alive, so I got off of my engine and started ahead to the third engine, thinking that I could cut the rear end of the train possibly and get out of there, get the train out. Of course, I put my coat over my head — I was weai'ing a coat and I put the coat over my head. I could not see anything but I was feeling my Avay along, and J. realized that it would be im- possible to get to the third engine, so I decided that I would cut my engine and let the fourth or fifth engine get out with the rear portion of the train. AVhile I was in there of course I left my engine in forward motion with the throttle open, in case they started — of course I would not get out, but the rest of them would get out, whereas if I had left my engine shut oft' the chances were that they could not have dragged them out, they would have broken in two. So while I was down there trying to cut the engine off, the train started, and of course I was in there somewhere between the pilot and the tank, and the plate on the pilot of the engine caught me just below the knee and I fell forward alongside of the tunnel about I should judge thirty inches or thirty-six inches, maybe between the wall of the tunnel and the rail. As it happened, I fell forward lengthwise of the track with my face in this ditch or drain along the side. The tunnel is more or less damp, so the train pulled out, and after getting out side they missed me, and they came back; but it was about twenty minutes I believe before they could get into the tunnel with fusees and find me, lo.cate me. Of course, it was dark, lots of smoke in there and I had this black coat over my head anyhow, but they finally found where I was lying and carried me outside and placed me in some snow. There was a doctor on No. 13 and he came up and told them how to restore life, if such a thing was possible, but I was afterwards taken home on a light engine and remained in bed three or four days until the company's physician would let me go to work. That is not the only case. We have had others that have been taken out there, but not quite so bad as my case was. We had one engineer killed there, a number of years ago, in the tunnel, on account of the train breaking in two. Mr. Stone: How long were you unconscious, Mr. Jones? 864 Mr, Jones: Well, I should judge — of course I did not re- gain consciousness, until I arrived home, but after I was in bed at home, I remembered — I had a faint recollection of some things that occurred from the time that I got off of my engine and the time I got home, but I was not rational at all. Mr. Stone: Have you a pliotograph of one of those trains? Mr. Jones: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: That is a small reproduction that was made from a postal card someone sent me. Mr. Jones : This is a six engine train. Mr. Stone: Tliese are offered, not as exhibits, but simply to show it is the same train? Mr. Jones : There are three behind and three ahead there, all 22 by 28. Mr. Stone : In handling those six engine trains, Mr. Jones, they do not handle all the engines together, do they? Mr. Jones: No, usually put three aliead and three behind. Mr. Stone: Three in the middle of the train? Mr. Jones: I mean three in the middle, about two-thirds of the way back. Mr. Stone: For example, if you had a train of sixty cars you would probably put three engines ahead, then forty cars, then Mr. Jones: That train is made up of fifty-four cars, three engines ahead and then thirteen cars behind the three rear en- gines. Mr. Stone: They could liave made two trains of that very easily, couldn't they? Mr. Jones: They could liave made three trains, two en- gines on a train. Mr. Stone: That would require more conductors, would it not? Mr. Jones: We are handling the same train out of there today with five engines and one train crew that we handled some years ago with nine engines and three train crews. The trains are being handled very economically. Mr. Stone: This postal card of this passenger train, are these Mikado engines? Mr. Jones : No, Consolidation, 22 by 30. 865 Mr. Stone : How many engines do they use on a passenger train on that division now? Mr. Jones: At the present time they use two superheated Mikados. with twelve ears, where they did use three 22 by 30 Consolidation. Mr. Stone : These are just simply reproductions of a postal card showing you, with three engines on a passenger train, how they handle those. Mr. Jones: Is it not a fact that by the handling of trains in this manner, the only saving to the company is the fact that it saves trainmen? There is no saving to the company, is there, outside of thatf Mr. Jones : There is a saving in other ways. It will reduce delay to opposing trains by confining those trains to one train, it will make less delay, make less trains. Mr. Stone : It is quite common then, in the winter weather, to jump out of those tunnels at 160 degrees and jimip right into a snow bank, is it? Mr. Jones : Yes. Mr. Stone: Are there heavy snows in the mountains? Mr. Jones : Yes, we have pretty heavy snow up there, use rotaries on part of the division every winter, I guess, most every winter, run sn,ow plows and flanges. Mr. Stone : What are the rules of the Southern Pacific in regard to men reporting for duty? Mr. Jones: Well, to give you an idea of how we are ex- pected to report for duty, I would have to explain just what takes place from the time we are called. Mr. Stone: All right. Mr. Jones: After being called, we go to the depot and compare our time with tlie standard time, register our name on the train register and the time our watcli was compared. Then we go to the roundhouse and change our clothes and inspect our engine, see that all supplies and tools necessary are on the engine, all signal appliances, or signals that might be used in the protection of our train ; inspect the engine and see that it is in safe condition to make a successful trip. Then you make out a report blank form and sign it, stating that you found the in- jectors, lubricators, fire box, and in fact everything connected ,A\dth the engine, in ]oerfect condition, as far as you know. see Then, register at the roiindliouse, take the engine out on the table, have it turned, take water, oil around, put tlie engine on the train, try the air, test the brakes, pump up the brake pipe and auxiliary, and, by that time, if the conductor shows up with the orders, why, we pull the head end of the train up to one end of the yard and couple iu the rear end, and then we are ready to go. Mr. Stone: . I wish you would describe for the Board, if you can, without being too long, one of your tiips like you make, leaving the terminal, after you are ready to go. Mr. Jones: One through trip on this division? Mr. Stone: I think so. L think it would be interesting to them, to show them something that the men have to contend with. Mr. Jones: Well, we will leave Ashland, Oregon, say at (i:30 o'clock this morning, and we are called and go through this performance that I have just explained. Mr. Stone: For all this preparatory time do you get any pay? Mr. Jones: Nothing up to the time you are ordered to leave. If I am called for 6 :35 these fifty minutes I put in pre- paring myself for the trip, that is, from the time T register at the depot until I leave the yard. I get nothing for that, but you are responsible for your engine up to the time you leave the yard, just the same as if you were drawing pay. Now, after the train is made up and the air is tested by the yard man from the road engine, we pull up the head of the train — that consists of two engines and probably thirty-five cars — until the rear end. with three engines and probably fif- teen or twenty cars, can pull out over the switch and couple in. Then we make what is known, for the protection of every- body and ever>'thing connected with the movement of the train, as a rear end plug test. That is, when you get all coupled to- gether and do the necessary- whistling, and so forth, we call for what we call the "plug." The brakeman, when he hears that signal, from the rear end. opens the plug and if the reduction is made from the gauge in the lead engine, we have every rea- son to believe that the air goes through the entire length of the train and can be operated from the leading oncnTie. 867 Well, we start out and it is about seven and a half miles, I believe — no, it is ten miles to Steinman. We will use probably an hour going that ten miles. Part of the way the grade is light. We would make fifteen or eighteen miles an hour for probably four and a half miles. The rest is a three or three and a half per cent grade. When we get to Steinman we tie the. train up with hand brakes, and we cut the two rear engines from the rear por- tion of the train and they back down and get w^ater. After the train is secured, the two head or leading engines are cut otf and they go to the upper tank and get water. After they get water and come back and couple on the train, the rear end backs do^vn below the tank and the third engine is cut off and they back down for water. Mr. Stone: Explain to the Board — does it bother you to be interrupted 1 Mr. Jones: No, sir. Mr. Stone: Explain to the Board why you do not dare to let go of this train? Mr. Jones: Well, it is a recognized fact that the cars used nowadays .could not be controlled with hand brakes. If the air would leak off the train would start; the grade is too heavy for the cars. I do not believe a hand brake would hold the cars. After we get the water on the five engines we get eou]>led up again and we go with our 47 or 50 cars, whatever it may be, to Siskiyou. That is seven and a half miles further west. Then, we cut out the engine from the head end and one from the back end of the train, and the train leaves Siskiyou down a three per cent grade with three engines, two in the rear and one on the head end. When you arriA^e at Hornbrook, at the foot of the grade, nineteen miles — Mr. Stone : Before you arrive at Hornbrook, do you do any- thing ! Mr. Jones: We stop for inspection along at different places and to cool the wheels. Mr. Stone : How long do you stop 1 Mr. Jones: Ten minutes at a place called Gregory. Mr. Stone: Down that nineteen miles, on that grade of 3.3 per cent, somebody must do a pretty fancy job of braking, if he gets the train down there. ' Mr. Jones: If you neglect your brakes for a minute — I 868 believe it }ias been estimated that a traiu goiu^ twelve miles an hour, down a three per cent grade, without brakes, will ^o forty miles an hour in a minute, and with these ten to fourteen deo^ree curves, 1 don't believe the train will stay on the track. Mr, Stone: It is necessary to iclease iii order to recharge your train line? Mr. Jones: Yes, out of the nineteen miles there is a flat of tiiree miles and a half, and the applications of the brake will run anywhere from 70 to 110 times. That is, you are applying and releasing the brakes from 70 to 110 times within an hour and twenty oi- twenty-five minutes. It is just applying them thirty-eiglit i)er cent of the time and releasing them about sixty-two per cent or whatever it would figure out. Well, now, where did we get to, Hornbrook? ]Mr. Stone: We are still going down the grade. Mr. Jones: When we arrive at Hornbrook we cut the en- gines out, go out and get oil and water, and there will probably be a message there to take uj) what cars are at Hornbrook, which mav be five or mav be ten, and von will leave there and go through tlie same procedure that you do to get out of any terminal, by making tests, and so forth, and then you go over to Snowden, and then you will probably cut one engine out there, and you will get a message to take M'hat cars are at Montague, that is a station east of Snowden, and pick up probably two or three helpers at Edgewood, and one brakeman, and take what cars are at Edge^vood, wdiicb would probably fill yonr train out to 65 or 68 cars, and then over to Blue Butte Sunmnit, an- other point on the division, and you would get an order to cut out possibly three engines, and simply run them light to Duns- muir, leaving two engines with the 68 cars, with an order to fill out to 71 cars at Sisson, that is 68 miles east of Dunsmuir, and with the two engines and 71 cars and four brakemen, you would go into Dunsmuir. In that time you would probably have con- sumed from eleven to thirteen or fourteen hours. Mr. Stone: What is the mileage? Mr. Jones: 107 miles. Mr. Stone: What is the responsibility of the engineer on a train like this, in approaching yard limits? Mr. Jones: Well, it is a pretty great responsibility, very great. Now. taking it on a grade where Rule 98 applies, where 869 stations are ]>iotected — all trains between switch and yard limit boards, protected under Rule 93, — it would be impossible to control that train and observe that rule, in certain kinds of weather. In t'o,i»gY weather you realize that with a train mov- ing at twelve miles an hour, when the brakes were released, it would require some IM) or -tO seconds, after making a ten pound application of brakes, to restore the air in the brake pipe, and have the pressure in the brake pipe and auxiliaries so the pres- sure would be in condition to make another application of the brakes. While moving at four miles an hour or if a train was moving at two miles an hour, in foggy weather, where it is im- possible to see over a car length ahead of you, you could not possibly manipulate that air brake and control that train and avoid the responsibility of a collision under those conditions — it could not be done, because you could not stop that train in the car length you would have to stop it in. Mr. Stone : In other words, after that brake line has been run down by a ten pound reduction and released, you cannot again apply the brakes until you have allowed perhaps thirty seconds to pass to recharge! Mr. Jones: No, it is not the pressure in the brake pipe that sets the brake, it is the pressure in the auxiliary reservoir, and you must make a reduction in the brake pipe below the auxiliary pressure before you can open up the connection be- tween the auxiliary and the brake cylinder, and that requires time. Mr. Stone : Are all these engines in the mountain service oil burners, at the present time? Mr. Jones : They are, yes, sir. Mr. Stone: Do you find it is as bad going through the tunnels with the oil as with the coal? Mr. Jones : Well, I think it is worse than it was with the coal. Mr. Stone: Why? Mr. Jones : Ws'll, the gas that is thrown off from the oil af fects the men, I believe, more than the coal did. Now, in going through these tunnels you are unable to see anything, you can- not see anything from the time you enter those tunnels until you are outside. These firing valves that the firemen operate in a desire to keep this smoke down as much as possible, so as 870 to make it possible to go tlirough there, there are times when one of these men on one of these five engines will cut the fire down too low, and, when you do, of course, that gas is something terrible, that is all. Mr. Stone: Have you noticed any difference, Mr. Jones, in the cost of living between, say, 1909 and 1910, and now — liave you notic(»d any difference in the cost of living in tliat ])eriod? Mr. Jones : Yes, there is a difference in the cost of living, from a railroad man's standi)oint. At places where a few years ago. two or three years ago we were served with 25 cent meals, I notice now that generally the things we order, ham and eggs and bacon and eggs and things like that, that we used to get for 25 cents, we now pay 35 cents for. The meal we formerly got for 25 cents, what was called a regular dinner, is still advertised as a 25 cent meal, but where we used to get a plate of soup and a dessert, we now get the soup for five cents extra and the dessert for five cents extra, making a meal cost 35 or 40 cents, which means from nine to twelve or fifteen dollars a mouth extra — it is not much for a meal, but at the end of the month, where you eat three meals a day, it amounts to considerable. And I might speak of the beds, too. The beds that are furnished at the Weed Hotel in Dunsmuir — that is about the only place where you can get a room, the 25 cent bed, no man that has any respect for his person at all would sleep in those rooms, for there is absolutely no ventilation wliatever ; and the room that you can get for fifty cents, that we used to pay 25 cents for, is usually in a court, over a Chinese kitchen, and there are certain times of the year when it is impossible to stay there imless you use one of these respirators. Mr. Burgess: May I ask to what place you would attach this pipe under those circumstances? Mr. Jones : You would have to arrange some kind of con- nection from the roundhouse over there. Mr. Stone : I think that is all. CROSS EXAMINATION. Mr. Sheean: "^Vhen was it. Mr. Jones, that this accident or injury was sustained by you? Mr. Jones: I think it was the 24th of February, 1913. Now, I won't be sure as to that, but it was either 1912 or 1913, 871 the 24th of February. Wait a minte, I think I have it here. (After examining paper). February 20th, 1913, along in there somewhere. . ..,. Mr. Sheean : Now, the respirators that you have described here have ])een in use out on tliat division since long prior to 1910, haven't they? Mr. Jones: Yes, I think it was in 1909 when they were introduced there. We used, prior to that time, when the trains weren't so heavy, — we used to go through by wetting a sack or a coat or carrying a sponge, and, by going through with a train of lighter tonnage, we would get through more quickly. Mr. Sheean : And these respirators were furnished by the company back in 1909? Mr. Stone: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean : And, after the accident to you, their use was made compulsory, wasn't it, — an order was issued? Mr. Jones : Yes, an order was issued. I will tell you why some men objected to using these, and once in a while you will get a man out. It was rumored, and, it was the opinion of a great many, that the fumes pumped into this main reservoir and forced in through this small pipe — of course, you understand, there is a circulation there and when you get 130 pounds pres- sure there with that small pipe up to your face, it was the opinion of some that eventually those fumes would affect your lungs. Mr. Sheean: At the time you exercised your seniority, your seniority rights, and selected the helper work through these tunnels, these large engines and these respirators were already in use on that division? Mr. Jones: Yes. Mr. Sheean: And, at the present time it is a fact, isn't it, that there is under construction, and many millions of dollars have been expended on both sides of this long tunnel in the construction of a new track that Avill eliminate this very tunnel that you are talking about? Mr. Jones : I don't understand it that way. Mr. Sheean: You do know, do you not, Mr. Jones, that there has been constructed from Edgewood, out as far as Ridge City, about forty-five miles of railroad? Mr. Jones: No. 872 Mr. Sheeaii : Out of Eugene, I should have said. Mr. Jones : 1 understand that there is a road being con- structed out that way. Mr. Sheean : That there has actuidly been constructed ? Mr. Jones : I liave not been up there. Mr. Sheean: And from Weed out as far as Williamson's River, 160 miles have actually been built in that direction? Mr. Jones : Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean : And that, when the gap between those two points is filled, this particular part of the Southern Pacific, where this tunnel that you have been describing is located, the trains will i-un around by this new line! Mr. Jones: Well, now, I understand — I don't know what the plans of the company are, of course — I am not in a position to know — I understand that road will not be from Klamath Falls on out and connecting at Eugene. It may be, but I do not understand it that way. Mr. Slieean : You do know that there has been built in one direction about 160 miles and in the other about 45 miles'? Mr. Jones : As to the road to Klamath Falls I know that to be a fact, I have been over it as far as Klamath Falls. The other way I don't know about. Mr. Sheean: The part you have been over is about 160 miles ? Mr. Jones : Yes, it is 86 miles from Weed and — Mr. Sheean: Then, from Eugene, you know a road has been built in a general direction that would meet this other? Mr. Jones: No, I don't know that, because I haven't been there. Mr. Sheean: You don't know just how far it extends, but you do know that some sort of railroad is being built in that direction ? Mr. Jones : No, I don't know" that it has been built, because I have not been there and I could not say as to that. Mr. Sheean : This tunnel that you have described here, and its conditions and all, is on this 3.3 per cent grade, which is between Eugene and Weed? Mr. Jones: Yes. Mr. Sheean : So that, if, in fact, a new railroad or a rail- road is under construction from Weed, at the one end, and 873 from Eugene, at the other, and if that does connect, it will oper- ate between the same points where this tunnel which you have described is now located? Mr. Jones : Yes, but I doubt if that would relieve the con- ditions. Mr. Sheean : Well, it would if they abandoned that tunnel? Mr. Jones : It would, if they did abandon it — if they did. Mr. Sheean : Now, the tunnel was there and the conditions were there in 1909, practically the conditions that you have described now, except in the increase in size and weight on drivers — size of the engine? Mr. Jones: Yes. Mr. Sheean: How long have you been an engineer, Mr. Jones? Mr. Jones: Well, I have been an engineer eighteen years, but only for the Southern Pacific thirteen years, a little over thirteen years, about thirteen years and three months. Mr. Sheean: You have been an engineer all told eighteen years? Mr. Jones: Yes. Mr. Sheean: How old are you now, Mr. Jones? Mr. Jones : Forty. Mr. Sheean : So you became an engineer at twenty-two ? Mr. Jones: Yes. Mr. Sheean: And have been running a road engine for about how long? Mr. Jones: For the full time, eighteen years — well, I was on a switch engine possibly six months after I was promoted. I doubt if it was that long, Mr. Sheean: You have been thirteen years on tlie Southern Pacific? Mr. Jones: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean : Your seniority rights cover what territory ? Mr. Jones: Well, now only between Dunsmuir and Ash- land, and as far north as this new road you speak of, to Kla- math Falls. Mr. Sheean: As far nortli as they haye completed that branch ? Mr. Jones: Yes. Mr. Sheean: What do vou call it? 874 Mr. Jones: Klamath Falls. Mr. Sheean: You have seniority righs that may be exer- cised over that branch as far as it is built, pr whenever it is operated, in case you elect to take them? Mr. Jones: As long as it remains under the supervision of our present superintendent, I would have. Mr. Sheean: You say now that your seniority riglits are limited to that particular territory? Mr. Jones: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean: What other territory did they ever cover? Mr. Jones: Well, we used to hold rights from Sparks, Ne- vada, to Ashland, Oregon. That took in the Sacramento Divi- sion and the Shasta Division, what is now split — made into two divisions. Mr. Sheean: And when did you elect as to the particular part of the system on which you would retain your seniority rights? Mr. Jones: Well, when I first went to work for the South- ern Pacific at Sacramento, I was on the extra list and of course I ran over the Sierra Nevadas, through the snow sheds, from Sacramento to Truckee, and over in that country. At that time all engines were overhauled on the Sacramento Division and delivered to different parts of the system, and it was pretty hard to get a man who would start out of Sacramento and prob- ably go a thousand miles, over a ]3ioce of road he had never been over, with a new engine ; so I did that work for possibly a year, and it kept me away from home — I would go on a trip and prob- ably be gone ten days or two weeks — so I took the run over in the sheds, on the east end, between Sparks, Nevada, and a place called Blue Canyon. I remained there until there was an op- portunity to take a run on this north end of the Shasta Divi- sion; I exercised my rights and bid in this run, and the division was changed a few days after I bid in the run, and of course I was shut off the Sacramento Division. Mr. Sheean: When was that? Mr. Jones : About 1907. Mr. Sheean: And you have been on this Shasta Division as you call it, since 1907? Mr. Jones: Yes, sir. 875 Mr. Sheean: About what territory does that cover, be- tween what points? Mr. Jones : From Red Bluff, California, to Ashland, Ore- gon, 206 miles of main track. Mr. Sheean: And over that 206 miles you may exercise your seniority rights, on any part of it? Mr. Jones: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean : And you have exercised them by selecting this run on these 107 miles, where these tunnels are located? Mr. Jones: Yes, sir, there are tunnels on the other divi- sion, too — on all divisions — not this particular railroad ; but the same conditons, I understand, exist in almost all mountain dis- tricts. Mr. Sheean: Have you run over the other part of the di- vision at any time, in the exercise of your seniority rights? Mr. Jones : I could not. I never bid a run in on the other part of the division. Mr. Sheean: Is there any tunnel on a 3.3 per cent grade on thi« system except the one you have described here? Mr. Jones : Oh, yes, there are four. Mr. Sheean: Having the same grade? Mr. Jones : Yes, on this seventeen miles from Siskiyou to Ashland. Mr. Sheean : How long would they be? Mr. Jones : They would run from 300 to 3100 feet. That is about the average. Mr. Sheean: Well, thirtv-one hundred is the one vou have described here. Mr. Jones : Yes, that is the longest tunnel. Mr. Sheean : That is the longest tunnel ? Mr. Jones: Yes. Mr. Sheean: What is the next longest one? Mr. Jones : Well, I don't know, I think tunnel 14. Maybe I have it here somewhere. Yes ; tunnel 14 is 1119 feet. Mr. Sheean: And the next one, closest to it? Mr. Jones : The next longest one is 411 feet. Mr. Sheean: 411 feet? Mr. Jones : Yes. The next is 354. Mr. Sheean: And then from there on down? Mr. Jones : Yes, then the next was 258. 876 Mr. Sheean: Mr. Jones, where is tunnel 15? Mr. Jones: Tunnel 15 is below Steinman; that is a short tunnel, but it is hotter than — Mr. Sheean: What is the length of that? Mr. Jones : 258 feet. That is, it measures that, but, if you go through there on a third or fifth engine, it is about seventeen hundred and fifty-eight. Mr. Sheean: AVliat is the grade there? Mr. Jones : It is a very slight ladder. It is 3 per cent, anyhow, through this tunnel. Mr. Sheean: You have described the trip going one way, and not on your helper trip, I believe. Mr. Jones: Yes. Mr. Sheean: What did you do coming back? Mr. Jones: You have practically the same thing, but it is going east where you assume the hazard passing through this long tunnel. It is up grade going east on your return trip. That is the long tunnel. Mr. Sheean: It takes you about the same lengili of time on the return trip? Mr. Jones : About the same, yes. Mr. Sheean: You make the run in one direction in one day, and the return trip the next day ordinarily? Mr. Jones : Ordinarily, that is when business is good they generally go over the road and make probably twent^'-seven days out of thirty. Mr. Sheean : What became of your helper engines you say were ordered to be cut off at a certain point on this trip? Mr. Jones : Well, helper engines out of Ashland will go on to Siskiyou, or possibly return to Ashland to help other trains in the ten hours. We might make two trips, we might make three trips, we might make four. Mr. Sheean: You are describing the case of one engine which runs all the way through from one end to the other? Mr. Jones : Yes. Mr. Sheean : Is your assignment on the helper or on the one that goes all the way through! Mr. Jones: My assignment is on the helper, but previous to this time I was running through on this through freight, both in the through freight service and passenger service, as late as 877 a mouth ago. That is, 1 eliaiige off with the through nieu there. I am Local Chairman there, and when the men tell me that conditions are so and so — well, you understand, our organization tells us to do as we are instructed. It don 't make any difference what the hazard or what the responsibility is, they will tell j6u to do as you are instructed, and they Avill try and fix conditioiis up so that it will be possible to obey these instructions. Now, the men will tell me that the conditions are so and so. That it is impossible to handle these seventy-one car trains, and so forth and so on. Well, as Local Chairman, and looking out for the interests of the Engineers, and for their protection, and to fit myself so I can go before an official and explain as to any irregularity on the part of the men, there, I change off and go over the district and handle these trains myself, so that I am in a position when I get before this official, so that he cannot say to me, /'What do you know about this? You have not been on a through train in a year." Mr. Sheean: What I want to get at, Mr. Jones, is this, your description here was the coming back of the through train all the way through, and not the description of the helper. Mr. Jones : No, that is the through run. Mr. Sheean: I understood Mr. Stone to say at the time you came upon the stand, that you were in the helper service. Mr. Jones : I am in all services. I make it my business to be. Mr. Sheean: I understand that, Mr. Jones, but, what I want to make clear here is that what you have described is the trip of a man who was in the through freight from one terminal to the other. Mr. Jones : Yes. Mr. Sheean: Will you please tell us just what the work of the helper would be, where on that run the helper's work is, and where the helper engine is, and where the helper engine is released from the train, and what it does. Mr. Jones: Well, there are two helper engines, what. we call the Ashland helpers, on that Avestbound train out of Ashland. One will be the first engine out, and he will handle the train to the summit, seventeen miles. The second Ashland helper will be placed third in the train, or first out ahead of the rear engines. 878 AVlien you get to Siskiyou you cut out tliat head engine, and he will probably go back to Ashland to help another train. The second Ashland helper will probably go out and help this train to Hornbrook, nineteen miles at the foot of the grade, west, and return on some other train to Ashland. Mr. Sheean : And will be held there until it meets — Mr. Jones: Will be held there until a train arrives, or until there is a call for it. Mr. Sheean : With which it is to return? Mr. Jones: Yes. To give you an idea about how a man works on that run, if he was called to leave Ashland at 6:35 this morning, to help a westbound freight, he would arrive at Hornbrook about 11 o'clock, that is thirty-six miles from Ash- .land. He would be held there until 1 :50 P. M., and would return on a passenger train back to Ashland, and put up at his terminal unless he was needed for further service that day. Mr. Sheean : About what time, leaving there at 1 :50 mth this passenger train, would he get back to this terminal? Mr. Jones : At 4 :30, and he would be relieved at 4 :40. Mr. Sheean: Relieved at 4:40? Mr. Jones: Yes, about 4:40. They make a quick relief when you get in. There is no delay when you get in ; they get you to the roundhouse as quick as possible. You consume about ten minutes. Mr. Sheean: The district just west of Dunsmuir, over which you have seniority rights, is practically a level district, is it not? Mr. Jones : Yes, sir, I think the greater part of it is almost level. Mr. Sheean: You have seniority rights over all of that? Mr. Jones : Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean : . The maximum grade on that is one per cent, isn't it? Mr. Jones : A little over one per cent ; the grade isn 't bad at all. Two engines handle fifty or sixtj^ cars. Mr. Sheean: There are none of the tunnels you describe, there? Mr. tjones: ,.;Thei"e are tunnels down there, yes, several tun- Dels. 879 Mr. Sheean: Well, of the same kind and character as the ones you described here? Mr. Jones: No. You go through them and make better time, of course. Mr. Sheean: How long are they over there? Mr. Jones: They run about like the others, all the way from two hundred to maybe eight hundred feet, something of that kind. They are shorter, of course ; there are none of them thirty-one hundred feet long. Mr. Sheean: No, there are none of them a thousand feet long? Mr. Jones. No. Mr. Sheean: You could, at the present time, if you pre- ferred, take a run on the west part of this division, could you? Mr. Jones: No, I wish I could. Mr. Sheean: You are not in a position to bid on that? Mr. Jones: No, I haven't been there long enough. Mr. Sheean: Now, Mr. Jones, how many engineers are there on the west part of this division, now holding positions there? Mr. Jones: Well, in freight there are seven. Mr. Sheean: And in passenger? Mr. Jones: In passenger, let's see; I think eight. Let's see, there are the three through runs and the local or way freight that would make eight passenger engineers, and eight freight engineers, and two engineers ordinarily on the local service, way freight — No, there are three ; two between Dunsmuir and Read- ing and one between Eeading and Red Bluff. Mr. Sheean: Making how many engineers all told on that, division? Mr. Jones: Eighteen men. Mr. Sheean: Eighteen altogether? Mr. Jones: Yes, on that west end. Mr. Sheean: On the west end? Mr. Jones: Yes. Mr. Sheean: That includes all who are working on that end? Mr. Jones: I think so, all on that end. as , Mr. Sheean: It includes the total number of men assigned there? ; {:!:i.i '^-nhUai Mr. Jones : I think so, 'yes, sir. ; 'f:'; -i M* 880 Mr. Sheean: It is your understanding that you have no right at the present time to bid in any run on that part of the division? Mr. Jones: I don't think there is a run on that part of the division that I could hold, except the run between Reading and Red Bluff, and that is a night run, and I would not want to accept a run of that kind. Mr. Sheean: A night run of how long? Mr. Jones: It is the night run and it pays very little money. You leave Reading, we will say about — well, say 11 o'clock. I don't know just what the hours are, but you leave there about 11 o'clock in the evening and go to Red Bluff and get in there about 3 o 'clock in the morning. You are four hours going down. For that four hours you get fifty miles. Now, they will hold you there from 3 o'clock in the morning until 7 o'clock, expecting to get out every minute, and that time is de- ducted, you don't get anything for that. But, you leave there at 7 o'clock and get back at 11, and you have made eight hours, been on duty twelve hours, and you get $5.57 for the time. So I don't want a job like that. Mr. Sheean: Your pay on that run would pay you five dollars and what? Mr. Jones: Fifty-seven cents. Mr. Sheean: A day? Mr. Jones: A day. Mr. Sheean: That runs every day, does it? Mr. Jones: Every day. Mr. Sheean: That doesn't appeal to you? Mr. Jones : And that is night work, and practically no rest. Mr. Sheean : I thought you said there were three hours, or four hours, or five hours, in between? Mr. Jones : In between intermediate trips, yes. Mr. Sheean: And the total time you were running was how much? Mr. Jones : Well, say eight hours, and you would be gone twelve hours from the time you left home. That is, you would be on duty about thirteen hours, including preparatory time, in making this $5.57. Mr. Sheean : How long would you be running? 881 Mr. Jones: In actual movement, or road service? Mr. Sheean: Yes. Mr. Jones: Eight hours. Mr. Sheean: A distance of what? Mr. Jones: A distance of — Well, I will have to figure how far that is. Mr. Sheean: Approximately, I mean. Mr. Jones : It is about eighty miles for the round trip. Mr. Sheean: What is it? Mr. Jones : About forty miles each way. Mr. Sheean: About forty miles each way? Mr. Jones: Yes, about forty miles each way, that makes eighty for the round trip. Mr. Sheean: Wliat length of time does it take you to run that forty miles? Mr. Jones : No, hold on ; it is thirty-six miles. That would be seventy-two miles. Mr. Sheean : How long is that run, or how long does it take you to run that thirty-six miles? Mr. Jones: Oh, you would probably be four hours going up there, thirty-six miles. Mr. Park: Haven't you the schedule there? That shows it exactly. Mr. Jones : Yes, I think we have the schedule. They leave Reading at 6 :26, and arrive at Red Bluff at 9 P. M., two hours and forty minutes. You understand that is the way freight, and it depends altogether on how much work they have, but it is safe to say they never make that schedule. Mr. Sheean: Going up, what is the time? You said you left at 1 o'clock. Mr. Jones: This is the time table, and they never run on time, they are never on time, that is the way freight; but they are scheduled to leave Reading at 6:26 P. M., and scheduled to arrive at Red Bluff at 9 P. M. But, they don't make it. That is the schedule, but they won't be on time once in a year. •" ' Mr. Sheean: AVhat is the time of the run in the other di- rection ? Mr. Jones: Leave 9:30 P. M., and arrive at Reading at 11 :45 P. M. 882 Mr. Slieean : AVhat does this through freight run that you have described here ordinarily pay, from month to month? Mr. Jones: AVell, tlie way business is now, I think those men on this run, the way business has been the last three months, have averaged probably — well, they are permitted to make under our arrangement, $179.10. Mr. Sheean: Well, "Under our arrangement," just what do you mean by that? Mr. Jones : Well, we try to tide these men over through the dull season by dividing the work up among our men, so that they can all work. Mr. Park : That is, you limit them to $179.10? Mr. Jones : Yes, we limit the work to $179.10. Mr. Sheean: How long has that limitation, limiting them to $179.10 been in vogue there? Mr. Jones : About a year. Mr. Sheean: About a year? Mr. Jones: Yes. Mr. Sheean: About how long after the claims were pre- sented, or this schedule was presented, was it that the organiza- tion limited the earnings of the men on that run to $179.10? Mr. Jones: We never got regulated, or got this arrange- ment in effect until about — Oh, I guess it has been six months ago that we got down to where we could handle it as we wished. Mr. Sheean : That is done by the organization there ? Mr. Jones : Yes, Mr. Sheean: Of which you are chairman? Mr. Jones : Yes. Mr. Sheean : Of having the man lay off after he has earned $179.10? Mr. Jones : We try to arrange it so he cannot make more than that ; we put other men on the run. Instead of having seven men, we would put in eight men, if we should see that the mileage was going to increase. Mr. Sheean : That is what I mean, Mr. Jones ; by increasing the size of the board f Mr. Jones : By increasing the number of men employed. Mr. Sheean: Increasing the number of men employed? Mr. Jones : Yes. 883 Mr. Sheean: And that is i)lactHl entirely in the hands of. the organization? Mr. Jones: Well, now, you understand, that it must be approved by the oflQcers. I can make the requests- ; Mr. Sheean : Yes, I understand that. Mr. Jones : — and show the Master Mechanic where there is another man should go into this pool in order to keep the men in service, but if he don't want to make the arrangement he don't have to, but he always has. Mr. Sheean: How many trips on that run does it take to make this $179.10? Mr. Jones : It pays $8.24 each way over the division. Mr. Sheean: $8.24? ' . Mr. Jones : Yes, for ten hours and forty minutes service, not counting preparatory time. There is an hour there you can figure; fifty minutes and ten minutes, that is eleven hours and forty minutes. Mr. Sheean : From the hour that you start in, at 6 :35 did you say in the morning? Mr. Jones: You would be on duty then at 5:35. That is when y^ou would go on duty, but you would be paid from 6:35. Mr. Sheean: 6:35 is the time to leave? Mr. Jones: Yes. Mr. Sheean: What time are you released? Mr. Jones : If you made the trip without getting overtime, you would necessarily get in about 4:35, or 5:15; you would be relieved at 5:25. Mr. Sheean: Relieved at 5:25 in the afternoon? Mr. Jones: Yes. Mr. Sheean: Being ready to leave at 6:35 in the morning T Mr. Jones: Yes. Mr. Sheean: On the run which you have described here,' there is paid to the engineer $8.24? Mr. Jones : For that service, yes, sir. Mr. Sheean : And made every day when, as you say, busi- ness was good ; it has sometimes been made running in one di- rection one day and back in the other direction the next day ? Mr. Jones: You couldn't run every day on that division, because you couldn't always get in under the Hours of Service 884 Law and get your rest; and il' you could, you couldn't stand it anyway. Mr. ISlieean: At the time this proposition was presented, Mr, Jones, is it not a fact that the men on that line were earn- ing regularly about $200 a month or more ? Mr. Jones : About $200 a month, yes. Mr. Sheean : And it is since you have presented the claims here, that the arrangement has been made with your local there to keep the earnings down to $179.10? Mr. Jones: No, we hadn't that in view at all. It was to furnish employment for as many of our members as we could, and to divide the work up in dull times. Mr. Sheean: I did not menu anything by the particular language I used, Mr. Jones. Mr. Jones: Yes, I understand. Mr. Sheean: But. during dull times you keep it down to $179.10, and during the times as they existed when this schedule was presented, the men were earning about $200 a month on that run? Mr. Jones : Well, they Avould earn that much, if the busi- ness was there. If the work was there for them they could earn that much. They would have that opportunity. Mr. Sheean : At the time that this presentation was made, the operations at about that time were such that the men were earning on this run about $200 a month, that is the engineers? Mr. Jones: As I understand you, you seem to think that this western wage movement had something to do with our regu- lating our crews to keep the wages down. Mr. Sheean: No. Mr. Jones : It did not, because we have men today, in the face of all this, who, if you took the bridle off and let them go, they would make $300 a month if it was possible to do so. Of course, they could not, but if it was possible, they would work until they fell off their engines, probably. Mr. Sheean: What I want to get at, Mr. Jones, is that under the present situation, or in times of distress, when you limit the amount that a man shall make, you limit the man on this run to $179.10; while, in the conditions that did exist at about the time that the claims were presented, they were earning at that time about $200 a month? 4 885 Mr. Jones : Yes, sir, about that. Mr. Sheean: And, for some time previous to that, that was about what they were earning there ? Mr. Jones: Well, it would not run over $200, I don^t think. Mr. Sheean : Would you think that was about a fair aver- age? ^ _^ ,. Mr. Jones : I know that is what we tried to establish, the engineers have tried to get that up somewhere near $200 a month, without killing them. You understand, take it in my position, I am forty years of age and have run an engine eighteen years. Now, under the rules of the company, my record is clear, but if I were dismissed tomorrow, or if I run along success- fully for five years more and then am dismissed, my prospect for a job is no good, I cannot get one. The men realize that, and they try to make all the money they possibly can during the. period they are working, in order to protect themselves for this ' time when they may be taken out of the service, fired at an age where it is impossible for them to engage in, or, to learn any other business by which they can earn a living. Mr. Sheean : Mr. Jones, when you spoke of the places where meals now are charged for at 35 cents, where formerly they were 25 cents, are those railroad restaurants that you speak of? Mr. Jones: No, on that division the railroads don't fur- nish us meals. It is private concerns. Mr. Sheean: It is the same about the beds that you, spoke of here? .'^'.-^ Mr. Jones: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean : The places that you lodge ? , i Mr. Jones: Yes, sir. Mr. Sheean: So that what you have described about the change in meals, about how much there was in a 25 cent meal now, is by comparison with what there was in 1910, as you found it, in your dealings with restaurant keepers and hotel keepers? Mr. Jones: Well, yes. You see we have had the same bill of fare for the last twenty years. It is roast beef, boiled beef ' and so forth. -' ^'''■- -' "'- = ''' Mr. Sheean: Just when was it that you paid the extra ten^ cents for pie and — what was the other thing you spoke of, with" 886 the 25 cent meal, instead of having dessert and something else, what was that — Mr. Jones: Soup. , Mr. Sheean: When did they make that change? Mr. Jones: I noticed it a year ago, when I was in Dunsmuir a year ago. Mr. Sheean: Are you sure that that change was not made prior to the time of the last concerted movement, as to this 25 cent meal, changing it to a 35 cent meal ? Mr. Jones: I could not say as to that; I do not know, but that is the first time I had noticed that this extra charge had been added. They might have added one part of it at that time and the last part this time. I don't know when it was. I have been at home for the last three years. Mr. Sheean: How is that? Mr. Jones: I have been at home for the past three years, you may say, on this helper run, and I have not been running around the country very much. Mr. Sheean: I was wondering, Mr. Jones, whether you knew whether or not this change in the price of meals from 25 to 35 cents, had taken place before the submission of evidence to the arbitrators in 1910 ? Mr. Jones: I don't know about that. Mr. Sheean: Or, whether that has occurred since that time. Mr. Jones: You understand that extra charge is made for things you need, that you necessarily need to eke out an exist- ence. Mr. Sheean: All I was getting at is, when the change or shift was made. Mr. Jones: I could not say as to that. Mr. Sheean: Probably 1909 or 1910? Mr. Jones: I don't know. Mr. Sheean: Or, w^hether the arbitrators who allowed the increase in wages in 1910 had any presentation of such changed cost of meals to them at that time. Mr. Jones: I don't know. Mr. Sheean : That is all. 887 RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION. Mr. Stone: Mr. Jones, referring back to that increase in meals, do you think the arbitrators who gave the award in 1910, knew that those Chink restaurants were out on the Shasta Division 1 Mr. Jones : I could not say whether they had any knowl- edge of them being out there or not. Mr. Stone: I believe you said that this present wage movement had nothing whatever to do with the fact that you put more men in the pool service and reduced wages down to $179. Mr. Jones : No, sir, it was simply done to have the men — Mr. Stone: Simply Christian charity, trying to help the other fellow along until business again becomes normal? Mr. Jones : Also, it is agreeable to the company. They want to retain these men in the service and have them when business picks up, if it ever does. It may. Mr. Stone: During that time after you were smothered with the gas coming out of that tunnel, the three or four days you were coming back to life, did the company pay you anything for it? Mr. Jones: No, sir. Mr. Stone : Simply complimented you and said you had a splendid heart action? Mr. Jones : The doctor did. Mr. Stone: That was the only thing that brought yon through, was it not, the fact that you had a splendid heart action ? Mr. Jones: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: Is it not a fact that the senior men on those two seniority districts, take the south end just as fast as their seniority will let them go down there ? Mr. Jones : Yes, sir. Mr. Stone : Is it not also a fact that your hair will be much grayer than it is now, before you will be old enough to bid one of the better jobs on the South District? Mr. Jones : Yes, sir. Mr. Stone : Did I understand you to say, that in your pre- paratory time you act as your own hostler, taking your engine out of the house ? 888 Mr, Joues: Mr. Stone: Jones : Stone : Mr Mr ready ? Mr. Jones : Mr. Stone: Mr. Jones : Mr. Stone : I do. So you act as a hostler? Yes, sir. You put in fifty minutes to an hour getting Yes, sir. For which you receive no pay f No, sir. Suppose you were to bid one of those runs, and go down on the other division, is it not a fact that some other man would have to go through exactly what you are describing? Mr. Jones : Yes, sir. Mr. Stone : There would be some other man in those tun- nels smothering and breathing hot air through a respirator? Mr. Jones: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone : Is it not a fact that in case they do build this cut-off and cut out these tunnels, that there are still other tunnels that engineers will have to go through f Mr. Jones : Oh, yes, no doubt of that. Mr. Stone: I think that is all, Mr. Jones. Rp]-CEOSS EXAMINATION. Mr. Slieean : I just wanted to ask a question or two. When you spoke of not being paid for your preparatory work that you did in preparing your engine, you mean that you are not paid separately for that, and unless it is included in the $8.24, that you get no special pay for that? Mr. Jones : Yes, sir. We do not make any notation of this time that we are preparing the engines. If I am called for 6 :35 A. M., in making out my trip report, I make no mention of being down there thirty or forty minutes. I say: *' Called at 6 :35 A. M., departed at 6 :35. " ' Mr. Sheean: Mr. Jones, isn't it good practice, in your judgment, that an engineer should know about the condition of his engine, inspect it, and if satisfied — Mr. Jones: I think it is absolutely necessary. I would not want somebody to inspect my engine, and I would not want somebody to try my air brake, and then go out and have a col- lision before I left the yard; but I don't think it is right to do that work without compensation. That was the question. 889 Mr. Sheean: But, in the buildiug up of rates, whatever the rates are, they have been built upon the theory that part of this work also was, as it always has been, the inspection of the engine, and the trying out of his air, and the preliminaries pre- paratory to a road trip. Mr. Jones: That has been considered by the company, I suppose, as a part of the duties of an engineer. If we do that without additional compensation there is no telling where it would stop, how much more we would have to do. Mr. Sheean: Mr. Jones, there have been, even in your eighteen years of experience as an engineer, a very material les- sening and shortening up of the duties that engineers of the old days performed, havc>;.'t there 1 Mr. Jones: No, I cannot say that there have. Mr. Sheean : On your system, have there been any changes at all as to the relief of engineers, for light running, setting up wedges, or anything of that kind ? Mr. Jones : Engines nowadays are to pull cars, they are no- body 's friends today. All they are for is to pull cars. Mr. Sheean: But in the old days, Mr. Jones, it was a fact, wasn't it, that some of the things which I have mentioned, were done by the old time engineers? Mr. Jones: Yes, they were, years ago before they com- menced building large engines. Mr. Sheean: As a necessary and proper part of the work of running an engine on the road, the seeing that supplies are on the engine, the seeing that the air works, the seeing that the injector works, and the knowledge that your engine is in good condition, is a necessary and proper part of the engineer's day's work, isn't it? Mr. Jones: For the protection of the company, the public and the engineers, it is, and I think he should be paid for that inspection. Mr. Sheean: When these rates have been agreed upon through all these years that you have had any knowledge of the practical operation of railroads, there has been included in the engineer's day's work as a necessary incident to a run, this work that you speak of; he has done that and sometimes more than that? Mr. Jones: Yes. 890 Mr. Sbeean: But always has done that, hasn't he? Mr. Jones: I understand on some roads they don't do it. Your engine is there on the train and you come down and take your engine. I know when I was working at Denver, we used to leave our engine — that has been twenty years ago — we used to drive our engine into the Union Depot, leave our engine there at the Union Depot and go off like a gentleman, and come down next day at 1 :30 and find the engine on the train all ready to go. Mr. Sheean : Do I understand, Mr. Jones, your position to be, that for the protection of the company, the protection of the public, and the protection of the engineer, that the engineer who is going out on a run should make no inspection to see whether things are in proper order? Mr. Jones : Oh, no. Mr. Sheean : You think that that is and should be a proper preliminary part of his work? I don't want to debate the ques- tion, Mr. Jones, whether he should be separately paid for it, but simply to ascertain your view as to whether that is a proper and necessary part of an engineer's work. Mr. Jones: When you walk around an engine behind an inspector that may have had no experience at all, knows nothing about locomotives at all, and find defects that he has overlooked, that would cause an engine failure or accident, it would appear that it is absolutely necessary for my own protection, and tho company's protection, and the protection of the traveling public, for me to inspect that engine and to know that she was in condi- tion to make the trip. The Chairman: Will you please suspend, Mr. Sheeau. We will adjourn here until 10 o'clock tomorrow morning. (Whereupon, at 5 o'clock P. M., an adjournment was taken until 10 o'clock A. M., December 11, 1914.) I 3 0112 084206173