LI B R.ARY OF THE U N IVLRSITY Of ILLI NOIS THE CHUECH IN WALES. A SPEECH RY THE EIGHT HON. W. E. GLADSTONE, M.P., IN THE HOUSE OF COMMONS. ON FEBRUARY 20, 1891. SIXTH THOUSAND. THE CHURCH DEFENCE INSTITUTION, 9, BRIDGE STREET, WESTMINSTER, S.W. 1893. Price One Penny. MR. GLADSTONE ON THE CHURCH IN WALES. Speaking in the House of Commons on Mr. Pritcharo. Morgan's motion in favour of Disestablishment in Wales, on Friday, Feb. 20, 1891, Mr. Gladstone said: — " I feel myself, Sir, indebted to the courtesy of the lion, member opposite, who is to move the amendment to this motion, for having waived his claim to press that amendment imme- diately after the speech of the seconder of the motion. I am bound to say that I am glad to have an early opportunity of intervening in the debate, because I do not think that I am able to adopt wholesale all the statements made by the lion, member who brought forward this motion in his comprehensive speech. I shall exercise a just right in stating to the House, in my own tone and manner, my views on the question, and in dealing with the subject in a way less likely to sharpen the opposition than my lion, friend found it necessary for himself to adopt, with the views he takes of the present action of the Established Church in Wales. " If I go back for a period of fifty years — and my own know- ledge of Wales has extended over the full range of that term — I could not speak of the Established Church in -,.„, v Wales at that period as I am able to speak of it * ■, -^ now. At that period its administration was un- doubtedly open in many ways to very heavy censure, and 4 THE CHURCH IN WALES. feebleness was everywhere — or .almost everywhere — manifest in its discharge of its duties. At present, however, the case is different. " I do not look at this motion of my lion, friend with a disposition to apply the microscope to its wording, because I might be obliged to say that it does not coincide Mr. Pritcnard Av jth my own views in one or two particulars. Morgan's j n the firgt place> j do not tliink that there is naccuracies. g rea ^. historical precision in the words which the motion adopts, though I understand the motives leading to their adoption. There is, for instance, a phrase which describes the Established Church in Wales as the Church of England in Wales. As far as I know the history of the case — and I have done my best to acquaint myself with it, though I believe that there is no standard work on the history of the Established Church in Wales during the whole of the long period over which it has existed — but as far as I know that history, we might really speak with as much justice of the Church of Wales in England as of the Church of England in Wales. " We know that towards the close of the sixth century of the Christian era— and I hope that the House will not be dismayed at my going back so far, for I will certainly pass Tne History over x] 10 intermediate period when England was of the Church stin DarDaroils to a „ Yent extent, and wholly . in •» CD I . ■ if dechristianized in the south and centre — Chris- tianity was flourishing in the northern extremity — which was in partnership with Scotch Christianity — and also in portions of the west, which were connected with Wales. For St. Augustine or his representatives — the missionaries sent by Pope Gregory VIII. — were met by bodies of Welsh Christians, who represented the Christian Church existing in the country from a very early time, and reinforced by refugee British, who were driven by the Anglo Saxon pressure into these western districts. These were the true representatives of the Church in Wales, which Church has, as fir as I am aware, continued from that day to this — that is, looking at it from without and in its corporate capacity. This is a very curious history — the history of the THE CHURCH IN WALES. 6 Church in Wales. It would be difficult to find in any portion of Christendom a more signal example of magnanimous and self-denying conduct on the part of the body of the people than the effort which has been made — especially during the present century — by the Nonconformists of Wales to make a provision for their own religion. It is not to be asserted that at all periods the Welsh people have felt the deficiency of that provision. " It is a very curious fact that what is termed the Anglican administration, as it operated in Wales, conferred upon the people of Wales one very great and signal blessing, which was highly appreciated by them, e and that was the introduction of their mother- tongne into the services of the Church. It was a thing which could be dispensed with perhaps in En eland where the language was strong, and where its roots ran throuo-h every fibre of the community. But in Wales the language was weak, drooping and losing ground ; and it was owing to the introduction of the mother-tongue into the services of the Church that the Welsh people were, for a long time after the Reformation, Established Churchmen. My lion, friend will find testimony to that fact in the history of Mr. Hallam, and in other historical authorities. In point of fact, no person could have more conclusively established the point than has the hon. member himself to-night; because he went back — and I am very much obliged for the interesting information which he gave us — to the year 1676 ; and he showed us that at that time while the strength of the Church was represented by 391,000 persons, the strength of Nonconformity at that period — that is to say, the strength of Puritanism — was only 10,000. It would have been impossible at that period — if my hon. friend had been a member of the House of Commons in 1676 instead of in 1891 — it would have been impossible for him at that time to have made a motion to the effect that the Church in Wales had failed to fulfil its professed object, and ministered only to a smal minority of the population. After that came a period most unhappy and most deplorable a 6 THE CHURCH IN WALES. for Wales, when the Welsh language was put aside, and when, in neglect of native claims, Englishmen came in A Period of 1 • 1 • ' i „ i to occupy every bishopric, every deanery, and every benefice that was thought to be desirable. Then the Welsh people were driven, as I may say, into the wilderness, and then the Welsh people, who are now and who have always been a most devout and religious people, felt the grievous necessity under which they were placed, and they set about what was, for them, the gigantic effort of providing the means, the ordinances, and the material appliances of religion. That is the case ; and it is a circumstance of great satisfaction to me that, in approaching the question as it now stands, I have nothing to do but to confess my sincere and hearty congratula- tions for both sides. " I believe that there is great activity in the Welsh Church. I have seen it grow under my own eyes. I am not now speak- ing of my own parish. That is a large, populous parish, where the Welsh tongue has never been ..... native, and which is, like many other parishes in Wales, much more Welsh than English in its circumstances. But I do not hesitate to say that though I believe the precepts of Nonconformity are not narrowing, that the energy of Nonconformity is not diminished ; that it retains its place in the hearts of the mass of the people ; yet the efforts and exertions of the Church now and for a good many years, and the growing and increasing efforts, are such as do, in my opinion, great credit to the energy both of the clergy and the laity of that Church. I render them ungrudging recognition ; and I do not think it my duty on this occasion to withhold any portion of the praise which is their due. u A representation was made to me to-day by a dignitary of the Established Church, and it is this. He founded himself The Liberality on a book which is an Anglican authority — the of Welsh < Official Year Book of the Church of England ' Churchmen. — and which may be termed, in a certain sense, authoritative, and which is friendly to the Established Church in Wales. What he told me was this. That the rental of THE CHURCH IN WALES. 7 Wales, as compared with the total rental of England and Wales, was 4 per cent. ; that the population of Wales, as compared with the total population of England and Wales, was 6 per cent. But that the contributions of Churchmen towards reli- gious objects and the support of the Church in Wales, as compared with the total contributions of England and Wales to the same objects was not 4 per cent, or 6 per cent.,, but no less than 14 per cent. That is a statement which contrasts with the painful, with the extremely disgraceful records of the past which is now becoming remote ; and in endeavouring to do justice to Wales I find myself not in thp slightest degree able, any more than I am disposed, to found this motion upon the idea that there is on the part of the clergy of the Established Church in Wales the slightest tendency or disposition to neglect their duty, or that there is not abundant evidence of the in- spiring efforts — and in many cases the very self-denying efforts — which they make to extend the administration of the Church. 1 " I quite agree with my hon. friend in one point, which is not immaterial. He says, with perfect truth, that there is a very considerable English immigration into Wales. There is a mining immigration which leads to j . + . an English demand in the matter of religion, although I believe it is also a remarkable circumstance that the families of these English miners ultimately become Welsh, adopt the Welsh language, and tend to swell the number of persons speaking Welsh. But at the same time there is an En dish immigration. There is also a very considerable immigration of English to the watering-places of Wales. That may account for some portion of the remarkable figures which the defenders of the Established Church are able to allege on their own behalf ; but I do not think that it at all abates what has been said in regard to the increasing devotion of the people, as well as of the ministers and governors of the Church, in the pro- secution of their duties. " Then the question is asked, ' Why interfere with this state of things?' If the Church is active and pro- gressive, and if the Nonconformists are contented, T + C J i . , * « Interfere.' why interfere r 8 THE CHURCH IN WALES. u But, Sir, the Nonconformists are not contented ; and the question is whether they are entitled to be contented. The Nonconformists are making in the most distinct Must Defer to , . . n 1 • i 1 i 1 . .terms, in a voice verv audible indeed, and governed. Nonconformist ..,„,,.« " „ n ,;, ;. , , t. i with all the torms ot the constitution, a demand Demands. . ' which I for one think it my duty to listen to, and which I feel convinced before any great length of time has elapsed, even quite irrespective of the present divisions of party, this House will have to listen to and will -be disposed to listen to. I agree with almost everything that was said by my lion, friend the seconder of this motion, who spoke witli a weight which belongs to his high character and his long devotion to this cause. I think he is perfectly right in what he said with respect to the vivid sentiment of nationality in Wales. I do not think that the Welsh people are disposed to make inconvenient claims on that subject. I believe that what- ever they ask will be confined within the bounds of reason and moderation. But I do think that my lion, friend is entirely justified in stating that that sentiment exists, and exists with great force and activity, in Wales; and that the people of Wales will ask, and will expect, and, so far as they constitutionally can, even will insist, that in the proceedings of the British Parlia- ment due regard shall be had to these several and distinct claims which the Welsh people within their own bounds and limits are warranted in making." After a good-humoured reference to the declaration of Lord Hartington with regard to Disestablishment ill Scotland as being a question for the people of Scotland, and observing that u the parallelism in the case of Scotland and Wales has yet to be con- firmed,'" Mr. Gladstone proceeded : — " I do not question that I shall be fairly and properly saluted with citations from a speech of my own on a former occasion I do not remember exactly in what year. (Sir G. Trevelyan — 1870.) Twenty-one years ago ! Since that time I have had THE CHURCH IN WALES. 9 time to be born again and come of age. The Can the Case passage to which reference is made is to the of Wales be effect that it was impossible to separate the Separated Church of Wales from the Church of England, from that of I may have used that expression. I think it very -knglana • possible that when the question of Disestablishment in Wales was proposed, more as the judgment of an individual or group of individuals than as the distinct expression of a strong, de- liberate, and pervading national sentiment — it is quite possible that I may have used that expression which may, when strictly regarded, be found to involve an element of exaggeration. I might have said in my judgment that it was impossible to re- construct and readjust the income-tax in this country ; but, at the same time, if the people of England, in their deliberate mind and by an overwhelming majority, arrive at the conclusion that that was to be done, it would be the duty of members of Parlia- ment to set about it and do it. " I say now what I believed then, and what I believe now, that the operation of disestablishing the Church of Wales from the Church of England will not be an easy one. T •, mi i / j xi -a. • a- i -i Disestablish- I suspect it will be found that it is tied and i i i r • i , i • i ment of Welsh knotted and tangled, I might also say, m such njmrch not a multitude of legal bonds or meshes with the an jj a sv Task, general body of the Church of England, that it would be a very formidable matter indeed to accomplish this untying purpose. I think the mover of this motion was wise in not having made any such attempt, which, if it is to be done, is to be done by the Government ; and I have not the least doubt that it will require all the skill, all the knowledge, all the cave, all the sense of equity and moderation that it will be possible to bring to bear upon it, in order to carry through that work in a satisfactory manner." Having rallied the Tory party on the " impossible" questions which they had subsequently found possible, and having insisted that "undoubtedly the Established Church in Wales is an advancing Church, an active Church, a living Church, and I 10 THE CHUECH IN WALES. hope very distinctly a rising Church from elevation to elevation ? " Mr. Gladstone concluded by saying that in the face of a large majority of Welsh members being pledged to support disestab- lishment, he could no longer resist their demand, and expressed his conviction that " the people of England, who are eminently a just people, will give and will insist on giving to Wales in respect of her reasonable demands the same just, equitable, and conclusive settlement which in the like circumstances I believe thev would claim for themselves." The following may also be had from the Churcl. Defence Institution, 9, Bridge Street, Westminster, S.W. : — THE NATIONAL CHURCH ALMANACK FOR 1893. Full of all kinds of information for Churchmen. In crimson paper cover, 32 pages. Price Id., or 6s. per 100. THE BISHOP OF MANCHESTER ON DISESTABLISH- MENT. A Speech delivered at the Diocesan Conference at Manchester, Oct. 19, 1892. Price Id. THE TITLE OF THE CHURCH OF ENGLAND TO HER PROPERTY AND REVENUES. A Paper read at the Lincoln Diocesan Conference, Oct., 1892. By the Rev. G. G. Perry, M.A. Price Id. FOUR IMPORTANT ACTS OF PARLIAMENT. THE TITHE ACT, 1891. THE EDUCATION ACT, 1891. THE BURIALS ACT, 1880. Mr. MARTEN'S BURIAL ACT, 1879. A full explanation of their provisions, with the text of the several Acts. In one cover, price Is THE CHURCH IN WALES. SHALL WE FORSAKE HER ? A Speech by His Grace the Archbishop of Canterbury, at the Church Congress, Rhyl, Oct. 6, 1891. Revised by his Grace. Price Id , or 6s. per 100. Also in Welsh. THE CONTINUITY OF THE ENGLISH CHURCH THROUGH EIGHTEEN CENTURIES, with Numerous Diagrams and Coloured Map. Second Edition. By the Rev. A. E. Oldroyd, M.A. Price Is. THE CHURCH DEFENCE HANDY VOLUME, containing the Leaflets of the Institution, together with Papers, Speeches, and Statistics by Bishops, Eminent Statesmen, Members of Parliament, and others. Seventh Edition. Price 2s. THE SMALLER HANDY VOLUME, containing a careful Selection of Leaflets. Price 6d. THE NATIONAL CHURCH. Published on the 1st of every Month. Price Id. By Post Is. 6d. per annum ; Eour Copies, 5s. 6d. ; Thirty Copies, £1 Is. Printed by Nichols and Sons, 25, Parliament Street. Westminster, S.W.