f i DOCUMENTS Pi PT. I DEBATES PEOCEEDINaS OF THE CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION FOB THE TERRITORY OF MINiNESOTA, n TO FORM A STATE CONSTITUTION PREPARATORY TO ITS ADMISSION INTO - THE UNION AS A STATE. X. F. ANDREWS, Official Reporter to the Conventioa. SAINT PAUL: GEORGE W. MOORE, PRINTER. JONNESOTIAN OFFICE. 1858. Jf<6> /3 6- /I2. OEpr. • THE ENABLING ACT. An Act to Authokize the People of Min- nesota TO FORM A Constitution and State Government, Pbepakatory to their Ad- mission into the Union on an equal footing with the Original States. Be it enacted hy th^ Senate and Rouse of Bepresentatives of the United States of Ameri- ca in Congress assembled: That the inhabi- tants of that portion of the Territory of Minnesota which is embraced within the fol- lowing limits, to wit : Beginning at the point in the center of the main channel of the Red River of the North, where the boundary line between the United States and the British Possessions crosses the same ; thence up the main channel of said river to that of the Bois des Sioux River ; thence up the main channel of said river to L,ake Travers ; thence up the center of said lake to the southern extremity thereof; thence in a direct line to the head of Big Stone Lake ; thence through its center to its outlet ; thence by a due south line to the north line of the State of Iowa ; thence along the northern boundary of said State to the main channel of the Mississippi River; thence up the main channel of said river, and follow- ing the boundary line of the State of Wiscon- sin, until the same intersects the Saint Louis River ; thence down the said river to and through Lake Superior on the boundary line of Wisconsin and Michigan, until it intersects the dividing line between the United States and the British Possessions ; thence up Pigeon River, and following said dividing line to the place of beginning, be, and they are hereby, authorized to form for themselves a Constitu- tion and State Government, by the name of the State of Minnesota, and to come into the Union on an equal footing with the original States, according to the Federal Constitutioa. Sec. 2. A7id he it further enacted, That the State of Minnesota shall have concurrent jurisdiction on the Mississippi and all other rivers and waters bordering on the said State of Minnesota, so far as the same shall form a common boundary to said State, and any State or States now or hereafter to be formed or bounded by the same ; and said river and waters leading into the same, shall be common highways, and forever free, as well to the in- habitants of said State as to all other citizens of the United States, without any tax, duty, impost or toll therefor. Sec. 3. And he it further enacted. That on the first Monday in June next, the legal voters in each Representative District, then existing within the limits of the proposed State, are hereby authorized to elect two Delegates for each Representative to which said District may be entitled according to the apportionment for Representatives to the Ter- ritorial Legislature, which election for Dele- gates shall be held and conducted, and the returns made, in all respects in conformity with the laws of said Temtory regulating the election of Representatives; and the Dele- gates so elected shall assemble at the Capitol of said Territory, on the second Monday in July next, and first determine, by a vote, whether it is the wish of the people of the proposed State to be admitted into the Union at that time ; and if so, shall proceed to form a Constitution, and take all necessary steps for the establishment of a State Government, in confora.ity with the Federal Constitution, subject to the approval and ratification of the people of the proposed State. Sec. 4. And he it further enacted. That in the event said Convention shall decide in favor of the immediate admission of the pro- M12599 EI^ABLING ACT. posed State into the Union, it shall be the duty of the United States Marshal for said Territory to proceed to take a census or enu- meration of the inhabitants within the limits of the proposed State, under such rules and regulations as shall be prescribed by the Secretary of the Interior, with the view of ascertaining the number of Representatives to which said State may be entitled in the Congress of the United States ; and said State shall be entitled to one Representative and such additional Representatives as the popu- lation of the Sfate shall, according to the census, show it would be entitled to according to the present ratio of representation. Sec. 5. And be it further enacted. That the following propositions be, and the same are hereby, offered to the said Convention of the people of Minnesota for their free accept- ance or rpjection, which, if accepted by the Convention, shall be obligatory on the United States and upon the said State of Minnesota, to wit : First, That sections numbered sixteen and thirty-six in every township of public lands in said State, and where either of said sec- tions, or any part thereof, has been sold or otherwise been disposed of, other lands, equiv- alent thereto and as contiguous as may be, shall be granted to said State for the use of schools. Second, That twenty-two sections of land shall be set apart and reserved for the use and support of a State University, to be se- lected by the Governor of said State, subject to the approval of the Commissioner at the General Land Office, and to be appropriated and applied in such manner as the Legislature of said State may prescribe for the purpose aforesaid, but for no other purpose. Third, That ten entire sections of land, to be selected by the Governor of said State, in legal subdivisions, shall be granted to said State for the purpose of completing the public buildings, or for the erection of others at the seat of Government, under the direction of the Legislature thereof. Fourth, That all salt springs within said State, not exceeding twelve in number, with six sections of land adjoining, or as contiguous as may be to each, shall be granted to said State for its use ; the same to be selected by the Governor thereof, within one year after the admission of said State, and when so se- lected, to be used or disposed of on such terms, conditions and regulations as the Leg- islature shall direct: Provided, That no salt spring or Jand, the right whereof is now vested in any individual or individuals, or which may be hereafter confirmed or adjudged to any individuals, shall, by this article, be granted to said State. Fifth, That five per centum of the net proceeds of sales of all public lands lying within said State, which shall be sold by Con- gress after the admission of said State into the Union, after deducting all the expenses inci- dent to the same, shall be paid to said State for the purpose of making public roads and internal improvements, as the Legislature shall direct ; Provided, the foregoing proposi- tions herein offered are on the condition that the said Convention which shall form the Constitution of said State shall provide by a clause in said Constitution, or an ordinance, irrevocable without the consent of the United States, that said State shall never interfere with the primary disposal of the soil within the same, by the United States, or with any regulations Congress may find necessary for securing the title in said soil to bonajide pur- chasers thereof; and that no tax shall be imposed on lands belonging to the United States, and that in no case shall non-resi- dent proprietors be taxed higher than resi- dents. TEREITORIAL ACT. An Act to Provide for the Payment of the Expenses of the Convention to form a Constitution for the State of Minnesota, in accordance with an act of con- GRESS, APPROVED March 3, 1857. Be it enacted hy the Legislative Asseiribly of the Tei-ritory of Minnesota : Section 1. That on the first Monday of June next, the qualified electors of the Ter- ritory of Minnesota, shall assemble at their respective places appointed by law for the opening of the polls, and shall there proceed to elect by ballot, certain Delegates for a Con- vention to form a Constitution and State Government for this Territory. Sec 2. Every Council District in this Territory shall elect two Delegates for every Councillor it may be entitled to in the Legis- lative Council, and every Representative District shall elect two Delegates for every member they may be entitled to in the House of Representatives ; Provided, That whenever any District has been sub-divided in order to elect their Representative in the Legislative Assembly, the same sub-divison shall govern in the election of Delegates to the Constitu- tional Convention. Sec. 3. That there be appropriated, out of any money in the Territorial Treasury, unappropriated, for mileage and per diem of members, officers, and secretaries, and for istationery, the sum of thirty thousand dol- lars. Sec 4. That the members, officers, and secretaries of said Convention shall be enti- tled to the same mileage and per diem as members of the Legislative Assembly ; Pro- tided, That the presiding officer shall be entitled to three dollars per day extra. Sec 5. The compensation herein provided for the members, officers, and secretaries, shall be certified by the presidirtg officer, and attested by the Secretary, as well as all claims for stationary, printing, and all other incident- al expenses, which, said certificates, when so certified, shall be sufficient evidence to the Territorial Treasurer of each persons claim. Sec 6. The qualifications of Delegates to the Constitutional Convention shall be the same as the qualifications for members of the House of Representatives or the Legislative Assembly. Sec 7. This Act shall be in force from and after its passage. Approved May twenty-third, one thousand eight hundred and fifty-seven. LIST OF MEMBERS AND OFFICERS. O o o h' H <1 55 fa O Ec] O oor-»- s See , J6x s « " at' W ? c £ — :; K t. I- > > ZScHaiS>SSft.>?;MS»^a:;pizzzzp'KS .•?i t Si fe ? ^ o. o 8 a ■a czt2?-?^i>cfiz .._..- j; J. -- ._ ._ .^ c — — 'C 'E ■•"" - tc tc ■ ■ - '^'C'O'O'O'^'SI^'O'C' •d'C'O'^'T'3 '. 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U, -:; >-i ? ^ cl INDEX. 99 583 Absence of Members — Committee on leave of, appointed, Absent Members — To be permitted to sign the constitution Act— ^ Enabling act of Congress, - Z Of the Territorial Legislature authorizing the election of convention to form a con- stitution, - - 5, 451 Adjournment — Motions for, over Saturday, - 64, 98 Resolution for, sine die, - - 197 " laid on the table, - 219 " for, sine die, - - 400 " laid on the table, - 411 " taken up and adopted, - 438 " reconsidered, and laid on the table, - - - - 497 Sine die, ... 595 Aldbich, Cyrus, (delegate from Hennepin,) — Appointed a member of the committee on credentials, ... 9 Wish of the people to become a State, re- marks on, ... 12 Resolution to admit Mr. Sheldok to a seat, remarks on, - - - 29 Appointed chairman of the committee on the executive department, - 68 Appointed a member of the committee on banks, .... 53 Appointed chairman of the committee on supplies and expenditures, - 63 Preamble and Bill of Rights, remarks on the report of the committee on, - 110 The Executive Department, remarks on the report of the committee on, - 129 Educational Institutions and Interests, re- marks on the report of the committee on, 247 County and township organization, remarks on the report of the committee on, - 262 Appointed a member of the compromise committee, ... 411 Resolution relative to auditing the accounts of the official reporter, offered by, • 586 Resolution relative to auditing the accounts of Owens & Moore, offered by, . 586 Aldrich, Cyrus, (delegate from Hennepin,) — Resolution of thanks to the President and officers of the convention, - 587 Resolution relative to the expenses of the convention, ... 5S7 Amendment of the Constitution — Committee on, ordered, - - - 36 " appointed, - - 68 Resolution relative to the mode of organiz- ing representative bodies, referred to committee on, - - - 84 Committee on, reported, - - 307 Report of committee on, taken up in com- mittee of the whole, - - 387 Report of committee on, ordered engrossed, 390 " read a third time and adopted, - 539 Anderson, Jno. A., (dele^tefrom Houston) — Appointed member of the committee on the Legislative Department, - - 63 Appointed member of the committee on ar- rangement and phraseology, - 68 Andrews, T. F., — Employed by committee on reporting, - 66 Resolution relative to payment of, - 636 Appent)IX — Organic Act of the Territory, - 599-604 Constitution of the State, - - 605-19 Vote of the people on the constitution, - 620 Analytical index to the constitution, - 621-4 Arrangement and Phraseology — Committee on, ordered, - - 36 " appointed, - - 68 Assault on Mr. Wilson — Report of the committee of conference, sta- ting the, .... 554 Resolution of Mr. Geeeish, relative to, - 554 Remarks of Mr. Wilson, relative to, - 560-5 Assessment of Damages — Amendment to the report on Bill of Rights relative to, in taking private property for public use, ... 179 Amendment rejected, - - - 189 Assistant Secretary — J. Q. A. Waed elected, pro tem, - 9 " " permanently, 10 Extra pay voted to, - 589 INDEX. AUTHENTICATIOJf OF CONSTITUTION — Resolution of Mr. Colbuen for the, - 585 " " Kemp. " - 585 Ater, Frederick, (delegate from Morrison,) — • Appointed member of the committee on the Legislative Department, - - 68 Appointed member of committee on real and personal estate and the rights of married women, - - 68 Leave of absence granted to, - 493 Babcock, L. a. — Elected Secretary pro tern of the Conven- tion, ----- 9 Elected permanent Secretary, - - 10 Communicates proceedings relative to com- promise, . - - - 496 Extra compensation voted to, - - 565 Balcombe, St. A. D. (delegate from "Winona) Elected President of the Convention, - 10 Remarks on accepting the same, - 10 Preamble and Bill of Rights, remarks on 100 Resolution recommending the people to hold a series of meetings offered by, 108 The designs of the Administration Leaders speech on, - . . 115-27 The Executive Department, remarks on 130 Exemption of Real Estate and the rights of Married Women, remarks on, - 150 Educational Institutions and Interests, re- marks on, ... 231, 241 County and Township organizations, re- marks on, ... 264 State Officers other than Executive, remarks on, - ... - 284 Banks, remarks on, - - 312 Impeachment and removal from office, re- marks on, - - - 333 Striking out the word " white," remarks on, - - - - 343 Amendments to the Constitution, remarks on, - - - - 388 Civilized persons of Indian descent, their right to vote, remarks on, - 395 Proposition to submit the question of Boun- dary to the people, remarks on, - 431 Finance, Taxation and Public Debt, remarks on, - - - - 464 University of Minnesota, remarks on the location of, and distribution of the fund of, - - - - 478 Remarks on the report of the committee on Miscellaneous Provisions, - 543 Regent^ of the University, remarks on the proposition to elect by the people, 547 Remarks on the final adjournment, - 596 Baldwin, B. C. (delegate from Wabashaw) — Appointed a member of the committee on County and Township Organization, 68 Appointed a member of the committee on Educational Institutions and Interests 68 Educational Institutions and Interests, re- marks on, ... 281 I Banks, &c., — Committee on, ordered, " " appointed. Reports of committee on, Consideration of report. Report ordered engrossed. - 35- 68 87, 307 141, 308 333 " read a third time and adopted, 504 Bartholomew, R. L. (delegate from Hen- nepin) — Appointed a member of the committee on Elections and Credentials, - 68 Speech on the organization of the Militia System, - - - 458-68 Bates, E. N. (delegate from Hennepin) — Appointed a member of the committee on Banks, &c., - - - 68 Appointed a member of the committee on Arrangement and Phraseology, - 68 Executive Department, remarks on - 130 Banking, and Corporations other than Mu- nicipal, remarks on, - - 141, 319 Exemption of Real Estate and the Rights of Married Women, remarks on, - 150 Amendment to report on Preamble and Bill of Rights, relative to assessment of dama- ges in taking private property for public uses, remarks thereon, - 174 Educational Institutions and Interests, re- marks on, - - - 237 Elective Franchise, remarks on, - 383 University of Minnesota, remarks on the lo- cation and distribution of the fund of, 485 Remarks on reconsidering the vote whereby an article relative to the University was adopted, - - - 50O Billings, H. A. (delegate from Fillmore) — Wish of the people to become a State, re- marks on, - , - - 17 Resolution of invitation to Delegates to pre- sent their credentials, remarks on, 61 Appointed chairman of the committee on State Officers other than executive, 68 Appointed a member of the Judiciary com- mittee, - - - 68 Limitation of discussion, remarks on, 72 Preamble and Bill of Rights, remarks on. 111, 96 Executive Department, remarks on, 136 State Seal and Coat of Arms, appointed chairman of committee on, - 182 Legislative Department, remarks on, 207 County and Township Organization, re- marks on, ... 259 State Officers, other than executive, re- marks on, ... 282 Civilized persons of Indian descent, remarks on proposition to extend the elective fran- chise to, - - - 895 Remarks on report of the committee on State Seal and Coat of Arms, 412, 518 Finance, Taxation and Public Debt, re- marks on, - - - 464 INDEX. Billings, H. A. (delegate from Fillmore) — Remarks on amendment to report of the committee on Public Property, relative to common highways, - - 476 University of Minnesota, remarks on the location and distribution of fund of, 478 Elective Franchise, remarks on the final adoption of the report of the committee on . . . .641 Report of the Compromise committee, re- marks on, . . . 579 Resolution relative to mileage of members, ofiered by, . . . 584 BoLLEs, Thos. (delegate from Rice) — Salaries, appomted a member of committee on. 68 Banking and Corporations other than Mu- nicipal, appointed a member of commit- mittee on . . .68 Preamble and Bill of Rrights, remarks on report of committee on, . . 96 Proposes a substitute for, . . 153 Banking, &c., remarks on . . 141 Punishment of Crimes, remarks on, . 147 Exemption of real and personal estate, re- marks on, - - 149 The rights of married women, remarks on, 174 Liquor licenses, submits a proposition for- ever prohibiting, - . 175 State seal and coat of arms, appointed a member of committee on, - - 182 Capital punishment, remarks on, - 190 Educational institutions and interests, re- marks on, - - 233, 242 Remarks on printing boundary resolution, 444 Militia organization, remarks on, - 456 Remarks on the State seal and coat of arms, 518 Remarks on the adoption of the report of the committee on election franchise, - 542 Books for Members — Proposition submitted for, - 81 — debate and rejection of, - - 82 Boundaries — Committee on, ordered, - - 35 " appointed - - 68 Report of committee on, - . 88 — taken up in committee of the whole, - 221 Proposition of Mr. Davis, - - 408 Letter from W. C. Dodge, - - 452 Proceedings of meeting at St. Peter, - 453 Report read a third time and adopted, - 558 BcTLEB, A. H., (delegate from Fillmore,) — Punishment of crimes, appointed a member of.the committee on, . . gg Supplies and expenditures, appointed a member of the committee on, - 68 Preamble and Bill of Rights, remarks on, 101 Remarks on the report of the committee on miscellaneous provisions, - 551 Call of the House — Ordered, - 34, 249, 325, 493, 497, [501, 507, 539, 558 Capital Punishment — Proposition of Mr. Bolles to prevent the enacting of any law for prohibiting, - 189 Substitute of Mr. Maxtor for, - 190 — Proposition and substitute lost. - 191 Cederstam, p. a., (delegate from Chisago,) — Elective Franchise, appointed chairman of the committee on, - - 68 County and township organization, appoint- ed a member of the committee on, - 68 Granted leave of absence, - - 182 Census of the Territory — Resolutions and remarks in reference to, 26, 27 Resolution to wait upon U. S. Marshal, - 65 — laid over under the rules, - 66 — taken up, - - 67 — laid on the table and made the special order, - - 68 — taken up and disagreed to, - 71 Resolution of Mr. Perkins in reference to, 74 — discussed and laid on the table, - 81 Chase, 0. L., (Secretary of the Territory,) — Demands the use of the Hall, - 28 Cleghorn, John, (delegate from Fillmore,) — State officers other than executive, appoint- ed a member of committee on, - 68 — Remarks on, - - 286 Elections and credentials, appointed a mem- ber of committee on, - - 68 Enrollment, appointed on committee on, - 68 Selected as chairman of the committee of the whole, - - 281, 454 Remarks on striking out the word " white," 347 Elective Franchise, remarks on, - 384- Finance, taxation and public debt, remarks on, - - - 463. Remarks on the report of the committee on miscellaneous provisions, - 544 Resolution relative to enrolling the constitu- tion, offered by, - - 584 Resolution to print the journal, offered by, 585 " relative to signing the constitu- tion, offered by, - - 586 CoE, Chas. a., (delegate from Houston,) — Executive department, appointed a member of the committee on, - 68 Miscellaneous provisions, appointed a mem- ber of the committee on, - 68 Resolution to adjourn sine die on the 7th of August, offered by, - - 197 Selected as chairman of the committee of the whole, - - 475 CoGGSWELL, Amos, (delegate from Steele,) — Substitute for resolution relative to the wish of the people to become a State, proposed by, - - 11 — Remarks on, - - 11, 17 Proposition to appoint a standing committee on State boundary, remarks on, - 39 Resolution relative to the use of the Terri- torial Library, offered by, - 39 INDEX. 40 43 46 53 54 62 65 68 194 70 COGGSWELL, Amos, (delegate from Steele,)— | Resolution to print the Enabling Act, of- ' fered by, Proposition to supply the members with newspapers, remarks on, Resolution relative to the incidental print- ing, offered by. Resolution relative to officeholders in the convention, offered by, Ehgibility of Federal officeholders to seats in the convention, remarks on. Invitation to all delegates to present their credentials, remarks on, Sesolution relative to the U. S. Marshal, of- fered by. Appointed on the committee on the schedule, Preamble and Bill of Rights, appointed chairman of the committee on, — Remarks on. Remarks on the resolution to appoint a com- mittee to wait upon the U. S. Marshal, Oro-anization of the convention, remarks Legislative Department, remarks on, - 199 Boundary of the State, remarks on the sub- stitute for the report of the committee on, - - 227-9 Educational institutions and interests, re- marks on, - - 2434 Rights of settlers on school lands, remarks on, - - 256 County and township organization, remarks on, State officers other than executive, remarks on. Banking, &c., remarks on. Equal suffrage, remarks on the proposition to submit the question of, to the people, Remarks on Mr. Fostee's suDstitute to sec- tion one for the report of the committee on elective franchise, - 379 Amendments to the constitution, remarks on, 389 Civilized persons of Indian descent, re- marks on the question of extending the right of suffrage to, - 396 Judiciary, remarks on the report of the committee on, - - 403 Selected as chairman of the committee of the whole, - - 411 Proposition to submit the question of State boundary to the people, remarks on, 412 Printing boundary resolution, remarks on, 443 Public property, remarks on the report of the committee on, - 476 University of Minnesota, remarks on the lo- cation and distribution of the fund of, 482-4 Navigable waters, remarks on the subject of, 510 State officers, remarks on the qualilica- tionof, - - 521 Remarks on the 'three months residence clause, - - 524 Compromise committe, remarks on the re- port of, - - 570-8 267 283 819 307 57 99 74 OOGGSWELL, Amos, (delegate from Steele,)— Resolution relative to the pay of members, offered by, - - 586 Resolution proposing extr-K compensation to members, - - 589 Payment of members and officers, remarks on, - - 593 CoLBURN, N. B. (delegate from Fillmore)— Wish of the people to become a State, re- marks on . • 19> 20, 25 Remarks on resolution inviting members to present credentials. Banking, &c., appointed chairman of the committee on. Elective Franchise, appointed member of the committee on, Resolution to hold but one session per day, offered by. Resolution for the appointment of a com- mittee on Leave of Absence, offered by. Selected as Chairman of the committee of the Whole, . 100, 108, 281, 400 Leave of Absence, appointed chairman of the committee on, . ■ 108 Executive Department, remarks on, 131 Banking, &c., remarks on, . 143, 321 Exemption of Real and Personal Property, remarks on, . . 150 Taking private property for public uses, remarks on, . . 188 Educational Institutions aud Interests, re- mai'ks on, . . . 237, 253 County and Township Organization, re- marks on, • . 263 Remarks on striking out the word " white," 347 Substitute of Mr. Foster, to section one of the report of the committee on the elec- tive franchise, remarks on, . . 377 Elective Franchise, remarks on report of committee on. . • 383 Amendments to the Constitution, remarks on . • • 387 Civilized persons of Indian descent, remarks on extending the right of suffrage to, 396 Resolution to adjourn sine die, August 13th, 400 Resolution directing the Secretary to com- municate the compromise resolutions to the Democratic Convention, . 441 Remarks on referring the question of State Boundary to the people, . 414 Militia, remarks on the organization of, 455 Salt Springs, remarks on the disposition of, 491 State Seal and Coat of Arms, remarks on, 519 Qualification of State OfficeVs, remarks on. Remarks on the report of the committee on Miscellaneous Provisions, Regents of the University, remarks on the proposition to elect by the people. Assault on Mr. Wilson, remarks on. Printing the Debates and Proceedings, re- marks on. Resolution relative to the expenses of the 532 645 547 555 559 INDEX. OoLBCBN, N. B. (delegate from Fillmore) — Conyention to form a Constitution, offered by - - - 555 Compromise committee, remarks on the report of, . . • . 566 Resolution relative to the authentication of the Constitution, offered by, . 585 Resolution relatiTeto the pay of the Reporter, 586 Remarks on the pay of Members, . 591 Committee — On Credentials, appointed . 9 On standing committees, appointed, . 27 On reporting, . • 23 Standing committees, appointed, . 68 Committee on Leave of Absence appoint€d, 79 " " Engrossment, " 197 " " Enrollment, " 231 " " Compromise, " 410 Committee of the Whole — On the wish of the people to become a State, - - 13 Preamble and Bill of Rights, on the report of the committee on, 88, 100, 109, 127 Executive department, on the report of com- mittee on, - - 123 Bankings &c., on the report of committee on, - - 141, 803 Punishment of crimes, on the report of committee on, - - 147 Exemption of real and persoaal estate, and the rights of married women, on the re- port of committee on, . 149 Legislative department, on the report of the committee on, - 199, 516 State boundary, on the report of the com- mittee on, - - 221 Organization of cities and villages, on the report of committee on, - 230 Educational institutions and interests, on the report of the committee on, 230, 232 County and township organization on the report of the committee on, - 259 State officers other than executive, on the report of the committee on, - 281 Impeachment and removals, on the report of committee on, - 333 Elective franchise, on the report of the com- mittee on, - 337, 438, 540 Amendment and revision, on report of com- mittee on, -' - 387 Salaries, on report of committee on, - 390 Judiciary, on the report of the committee on, 400 On the proposition for submitting to the peo- ple the questipn of boundary, - 413, 417 Militia, on the report of the committee on, 454 Finance, Taxation, and Public Debt, on the report of the committee on, - 462 Internal Improvements, on the report of the committee on, - - 475 Public Property, on the report of the com- mittee on, - - 475, 482 Schedule, on the report of the committee on> - V20, 526, 527, 543 B 196 595 Committee of the Whole — State Seal and Coat of Arms, on the report of committee on, - 537 Miscellaneous Provisions, on the report of committee on, - - 543 CoMMOx Highways — Amendment of Mr. Billixgs to article on Public Property relative to, - 476 — Rejection of, - - 477 Compromise — Resolutions submitted by Mr. Galbraith for a, - - 410 The Secretary directed to transmit the same to the Democratic Convention, 441 Communication from the Secretary relative to, - - 496 Commnnications from H. H. Siblbt relative to, - . - 536, 685 Report of committee on, - 565 Committee on, report Constitution enrolled, 533 Conduct of the Democrats — Resolution of Mr. McClure relative to, — Of Mr. Foster relative to. Contested Seat — Petition of Chas. B. Sheldox, - 27 — referred to select committee, 27 — report of select committee on, - 28 Discussion of the report - - 28-34 Report of the committee on Credentials, 52 Coombs, Albert W., (delegate from Hen- nepin,) — Elections and credentials, appointed mem- ber of the committee on, - 6S CotrsTY AND Township Organization — Committee on, ordered, " appointed. Report of committee on, — taken up in committee of the whole, Ordered engrossed, and read a third time and adopted. Credentials — Committee on, appointed, Report of committee on. Report of committee on, in the case of Mr. Sheldox, Of members, ordered to be filed with the Secretary, Daily Session — Resolution for one, per day, — taken up and adopted, Davis, E. Page, (delegate firom Nicollet)- Invitation to delegates to present their cre- dentials, remarks on. Punishment of crimes, appointed chairman of committee on, Miscellaneous provisions, appointed a mem- ber of the committee on, - 6S Preamble and Bill of Rights, remarks on, 91, 114 Leave of absence, appointed member of com- mittee on, . . lOS 34 68 166 259 281 52 64 57 68 INDEX. Davis, E. Page, (delegate from Nicollet) — Executive department, remarks on, . 129 Resolution to submit boundary question to the people, offered by, . . 408 Remarks on, . . . 408-10 Printing boundary resolutions, remarks on, 448 Capital of the State, remarks on proposition ' to locate at St. Peter, . . 521 Apportionment of representation, remarks on, , . , 527 Remarks on the report of the compromise committee, . . . 580 Remarks on the payment of members aud officers, . . 590 Compensation of the Democratic members, resolution, relative to, offered by, . 586 Designs of Administration Leaders — Reiolutions of Mr. Balcombe, relative to introduced, - - 108 Speech of Mr. Balcombe on, - 115-27 DicKERSON, D. D. (delegate from Scott) — Salaries, appointed a member of committee on, - - 68 Finance, Taxation and Public Debt, remarks on, - - 68 Elective Franchise remarks on, - S82 Judiciary system, remarks on, . 405 Finance, Taxation, and Public Debt, re- marks on, . . 465 DuLEY, Warben J. (delegate from Winona) Punishment of Crimes, appointed a member of committee on, . . 68 Printing, appointed a member of commit- tee on, . . 68 Preamble and Bill of Rights, remarks on, 100 Leave of Absence, appointed a member of committee on, . . 108 Educational Institutions and Interests, re- marks on, . . 252 Selected as chairman of the committee of the Whole, . . 551 Educational Institutions, &c. — Committee on, ordered, . 35 " appointed, . . 68 Report of committee on, . . 83 Report on, taken up in committee of the whole, . . . 128 — reported correctly engrossed, . 182 Read a third time and adopted, . 537 Elections and Credentials — Committee on, ordered, . . 89 " appointed, . 68 Elective Franchise — Committee on, ordered, . . 85 " appointed, , 68 Report of committee on, . . 887 Supplementary report of committee on, on the question of equal suflfrage, . 867 Report ordered engrossed, . 400 — read a third time and adopted, . 640 Eligibility of certain Members — Mr. Ooggswell's resolution on the, . 53 — discussion of, . . 53-& Resolution laid over, . . 56 — called up aud laid on the table, . 65 Enabling Act — Ordered to be printed, . . 40 Resolution to place on the journal, . 64 Engrossment — Committee on, ordered. . , 19T " appointed, . 197 Enrollment — Committee on, ordered, . . 221 " appointed, . . 221 Equal Suffrage — Resolution to refer to the people the ques- tion of, . . 367 Supplemental report of the committee on elective franchise, in reference to, . 3G7 Escheats — Proposition to amend the article on Public Property relative to, . 491 Consideration of amendment, . . 491-3 Amcndmont adopted, . . 493 EscHLiE, Henry (delegate from Cai^er) — Organization of Cities and Tillages, appoin- ted a member of committee on, 68 Elective Franchise, appointed a member of committee on, . . 68 Executive Department — Committee on ordered, . 38 " " appointed, . • 68 Report of committee on, • 83 — taken up in committee of the Whole, 128 — reported correctly engrossed, . 182 — read a third time and adopted, 537 Exemptions, &c., — Committee on ordered, . 38 " " appointed, . . OS Report of committee on, • 78 — taken up in committee of the Whole, 149 — indefinitely postponed, . 152 Federal Officers — Their eligibility to seats in the Convention, resolution and discussion relative to, 53-6 Resolution laid over, . 56 — called up and laid on the table, . 60 Finances, Taxation and Debt — Committee on, ordered, . 35 " " appointed, . 68 Report of committee on, . • 407 — taken up in committee of the Whole, 462 — ordered engrossed, . • 476 — read a third time and adopted, 589 FoLSOM, W. II. C. (delegate from Chisago) — Legislative Department, appointed a mem- ber of the committee on, . 68 Impeachment and Removal, appointed a member of the cooimittee on, . 6&- *• INDEX. VII FoLSOM, W. H. C. (delegate fron Chisago) — Organization of representative bodies, reso- lution relative to, offered bv, . 82 Legislative Department, remarks on, 205 Appointed chairman of the committee on engrossment . . 221 Educational Institutions and Interests, re- marks on, . . 241 ! County and Township organization, remarks on," . . 271 Banking, &c., remarks on, . 325 Elective Franchise, remarks on, . 384 Judiciary, remarks on, . . 4<>4 Boundaries of the State, proposition to refer the question of to the people, remarks on, . . 416 Finances, Taxation, and Public Debt, re- marks on, . . 465 Navigable waters, Temarks on the subject of 512 Kemarks on the three months' residence clause, . . 524 Substitute for the resolution submitting the question of the location of tft Capitol to the people, offered by, . 539 Election of Regents of the University by the people, remarks on proposition for, 550 Foster, Tnos. (delegate from Dakota) — Wish of the people to become a State, remarks on, . . 12 Resolution admitting Mr. Sheldox, remarks on, . • . 29-33 Resolution relative to the census of the Territory, offered by, . 27 Resolution relative to stationery, offered by, 40 Proposition to furnish newspapers to mem- • bers of the convention, . . 41 Resolution relative to, offered by, . 47 Printing for the convention, remarks on the question of, . . 48 Invitation to delegates to present their cre- dentials, remarks on, . . 60 Arrangement and phraseology, appointed a member of the committee on, . 68 Schedule, appointed chairman of the com- mittee on, . . CS Printing, appointed chairman of the com- mittee on, . . 63 Banking, kc, remarks on, . 144, 329 Punishment of crimes, remarks on, . 148 Selected as chairman of the committee of the whole, . . 149,475 The rights of married women, remarks on, 169 County and township organization, remarks on, . . 260 Striking out the word "white," remarks on, . . . 340-2 Judiciary, remarks on, 407 Boundaries of^the State, proposition to refer the question of, to the people, . 415 Militia, remarks on the organization of, . 455 Salt springs, remarks on the disposition of, 490 Escheats, remarks on the subject of, . 492 FostEB, Thos., (delegate fi:x)m Dakota) — University of Minnesota, remarks on the location and distribution of the fund of, 494 Navigable waters, remarks on the subject of, 510 Assault on Mr. "Wilsox, remarks on, . 556 Report of the compromise committee, offers resolution relative to the report of, . 583 Payment of the members of the convention, remarks cn the subject of, . 590 The conduct of the Democratic convention, resolution relative to, offered by, . 595 FoSTEB, "WiLLIAJI — Elected Sergeant-at-Arms^o tern, . 9 " permanently, . . .10 Extra pay voted to, . . . 589 FCBBEB, P. P. Oath to members and oflBcers of the conven- tion, offered by, . .10 Galbraith, Thos J., (delegate from Scott) — Elected President pw ffm of the convention, 9 Wish of the people to become a State, re- marks on, - - 13, 15, 22-3 Resolution to admit Mr. Shkldon to a seat, remarks on. Eligibility of Federal officeholders to seats in the convention, remarks on, Invitation to all delegates to present their credentials, remarks on. Judiciary, appointed a member of the com- mittee on. Impeachments, appointed a member of the committee on. Miscellaneous provisions, appointed chair- man of the committee on. Elections and credentials, appointed chair- man of committee on. Limitation of discussion, resolntion for, of- fered by, — remarks on. Preamble and Bill of Rights, remarks on. Educational institutions and interests, re- marks on, - - . 245-7 Rights of settlers on school lands, remarks on, - - 257 Selected as chairman of the committee of the whole, - - 259 County and township organization, remarks on, ' - - 273, 874, 276 State officers other than*execQtive, remarks on, - - 232 Banking, &c., remarks on, - 310 Striking out the word " white," remarks on. - - 343-5 23 53 oS 6S 6S 68 63 71 89 Elective franchise, remarks on. Civilized persons of Indian descent, remarks on proposition to extend the elective fran- chbe to, - - - Judiciary, remarks on, Compromise resolutions, submitted by, — appointed chairman of committee on, . Remarks on referring the question of State Boundary to the people, 334 396 406 410 411 429 INDEX. Galbbaith, Thos, J., (delegate from Scott) — Militia, remarks on the organization of, 456 Escheats, remarks on the subject of, - 491 Assault on Mr. Wilson, remarks on, - 554 Compromise committee, remarks on the re- port of, - - 568 Payment ol members and officers, remarks on, - - 592 Grbbish, Chaeles (delegate froip Winona) — Educational Institutions and Interests, ap- pointed a member of the committee on, 68 Supplies and expenditures, appointed a member of the committee on, . 68 Assault on Mr. Wilson, resolution relative to, offered by, . . 554 Extra compensation to members, resolution for, offered by, . . 589 GowAN, John H. — Resolution to allow extra pay to, as Assist- ant Sergeant at Arms, 587 Hall, D. M. (delegate from St. Anthony) — Organization of Cities and Villages, appoin- ted a member of the committee on, 68 Finance, Taxation and Public Debt, appoin- ted a member of the committee on, 68 Hanson, Charles (delegate from Fillmore) — Amendment and revision of the Constitution, appointed a member of the committee on, 08 Internal Improvements, appointed a mem- ber of the committee on, . . 68 Habding, Simeon (delegate from Olmsted) — State Boundaries, appointed a member of the committee on, - 68 Elective Franchise, appointed a member of the committee on, - - 68 Newspapers, offers a resolution in relation to the supply of, - 48 County and Township organizations, re- marks on, - - - 260 Judiciary, remarks on, - 402 Term of Judicial officers, remarks on, 516 Hayde^i, Wentwoeth (delegate from Hen- nepin— Remarks on resolution inviting members to present credentials, - 58 Executive Department, appointed a member of committee on, - 68 State Officers, other than executive, appoin- ted a member of committee on, 68 Preamble and Bill of Rights, remarks on the report of the committee on, - 89 Boundaries of the State, remarks on, 222 Educational Institutions and Interests, re- marks on the report of the committee on, 240 County and township organization, remarks on the report of the committee on, - 266 State Officers other than Executive, remarks on, - - - - 281 Selected as chairman of the committee of the whole, - • 883, 667 Striking out the word " white," remarks on, - - - - 869 Hayden, Wentwoeth, (delegate from Hen- nepin, Civilized persons of Indian descent, re- marks on the question of extending the right of suffrage to, - , 392 Personal Explanation, by, - - 452 Remarks on the report of the committee on Miscellaneous Provisions, - 545 Holley, H. W. (delegate from Fillmore)— Finance, taxation and Public Debt, appoin- ted a member of committee on, 68 Amendment and Revision of the Constitu- tion, appointed chairman of the commit- tee on, - ' 68 Selected as Chairman of the committee of the Whole, . 141 Hudson, Aakon G. (delegate from Goodhue) Wish of the people to become a State, re- marks on, - - - 12, 18 Amendment and revision of the Constitu- tion, appointed a member of the commit- tee on, - - 68 Schedule, appointed a member of the com- mittee on, - - 68 Educational Institutions and Interests, re- marks on, . . 251 State Officers, other than executive, re- marks on, ... 282 Banking, &c., remarks on, - 320 Striking out the word "white," remarks on, 342 Elective Franchise, remarks on, - 386 Amendments to the Constitution, remarks on, - - - - 388 Civilized persons of Indian descent, re- marks on the question of extending the right of suflrage to, - - 394 Judiciary, remarks on the report of the committee on, - 405 Proposition to submit the question of Boun- •dary to the people, remarks on, - 435 Printing boundary resolution, remarks on, 447 Selected as chairman of the committee of the whole, - - 462 Navigable waters, remarks on the subject of, 509 Manner of voting for the Constitution, re- marks on, - 523 Apportionment of representation, remarks on, - - 527 State Officers, remarks on the time 'of the qualification of, - 585 Assault on Mr. Wilson, remarks on, 558 Impeacuments, &c., — Committee on, ordered, - - 86 " " appointed, - - 68 Report of committee on, - 219 Consideration of report, 833 Report ordered engrossed, - - 834 " read a third time and adopted, 542 Impbisonment for Debt — Incidental debate thereon, - 177-8 Internal Impeovements — Committee on, ordered, - - ' 86 INDEX. Internal Impbovemexts — Committee on, appointed, - - 68 Report of the committee on, - 449 — taken up in committee of the whole, 475 Report stricken out, - - 475 Invitation to Delegates — Resolution of Mr. North, - 56 — discussion of, - - 56-64 — amended and adopted, - 64 Judicial Depabtment — Committee on, ordered, - - - 35 " appointed, - - 63 Committee on, reported, - - 3S4 Report of committee on, taken up in com- mittee of the whole, - - 400 Report of committee on, ordered engrossed, 407 " read a third time and adopted, - 539 Kemp, Sam'l A. (delegate from Wabashaw) State Officers, otherthan executive, appoin- ted a member of the committee on, 63 Salaries, appointed chairman of committee on, . . . .63 Educational Institutions and Interests, re- marks on, - - 249 County and Township Organization, re- marks on, ... 260 Manner of voting for the Constitution, re- marks on, - - 523 Authentication of the Constitution, resolu- tion for, offered by, - 5S5 King, David L. (delegate from Olmsted) — Wish of the people to become a State, re- marks on, - • - 12, 23 Proposition to supply the members ^with newspapers, remarks on, - 45 Remarks on inviting members to present credentials, - - 60 State Officers other than executive, appoin- ted a member of the committee on, 68 Salaries, appointed a member of the com- mittee on, - - 68 Preamble and Bill of Rights, "remarks on, 93 Offers a resolution of inquiry into the expe- diency of inserting a registry clause in the Constitution, - 74 Punishment of crimes, remarks'on, 148 Engrossment, appointed a member of the committee on, - 197 County and Township Organization, remarks on. 267 Banking, and Corporations other than Mu- nicipal, remarks on, - - 323 Elective Franchise, remarks on report of committee on, . • 384 Finance, taxation and public debt, remarks on, - - - 472 Salt Springs, remarks on the disposition of, 491 Navigable waters, remarks on the subject of, 512 State Officers, remarks on the time of the qualification of, - 535 Remarks on the three months' residence clause, - - 624 C Kino, David L., (delegate from Olmsted) — Selected as chairman of the committee of the whole, - - 543 Remarks on the report of the committee on Miscellaneous Provisions, . 552 Printing the Debates and Proceedings, re- marks on, . . 584 Leave of Absence — Committee on, ordered, - 99 Granted to Mr. Cederstam, - 182 " " Thompson, - 473 Legislative Depabtment — Committee on, ordered, - 35 " appointed, . - 68 Report of committee on, - 84 Consideration of report, - 198 Report ordered engrossed, - - 307 " read a third time and adopted, - 518 Leu, Gustav — Elected Fireman ^ro tern, - 9 " " permanently, - 10 Libel, (or Slander) — Proposition to amend the article on the Bill of Rights so that the jury determine the law and the facts, - 158 — debate on, - - 158-61 Proposition rejected, - 161 Limitation of Discussion — Resolution submitted in reference to, - 71 — discussion of, - - 71-3 — adoption of, - - 73 Location of the Capital — Resolution of Mr. Mills for, - 537 Substitute for, of ilr. Folsom, - 539 — laid on the table, - 539 Lowe, Chables F., (delegate from Chisago) — Invitation to all delegates to present their credentials, remarks on, - 56 Punishment of crimes, appointed a member of the committee on, - 68 Impeachments and removals, appointed a member of the committee on, - 68 Preamble and Bill of Rights, remarks on, 92, 113 Banking, &c., remarks on, - 141, 322 Punishment of crimes, remarks on, - 149 State Seal and Coat of Arms, appointed a member of committee on, - 182 Educational institutions and interests, re- marks on, - • 239 County and Township Organization, re- marks on, . . 271 Judiciary, remarks on the report of the committee on, - • 406 Proposition to submit the question of State boundary to the people, remarks on, 417 Militia, remarks on the organization of, - 457 Finance, Taxation and Public Debt, re- marks on, - - 462, 4^2 University of Minnesota, remarks on the lo- cation and distribution of the fund of, 489 Location of the Capital at St. Peter, re- marks on, - - 521 INDEX. Ltle, Robeet, (delegate from Mower) — Appointed member of committee on the ex- emption of real and personal estate and the rights of married women, - 68 Supplies and expenditures, appointed a member of the committee on, - 68 Preamble and Bill of Eights, remarks on, 107 Educational Institutions and Interests, re- marks on, - - - 251 Judiciary, remarks on, - 402 Remarks on report of the committee on miscellaneous provisions, - 551 Resolution to adjourn sine die, August 27th, offered bj, - - 583 Mantor, Frank, (delegate from Dodge) — Wish of the people to become a State, re- marks on, - - 19 Census of the Territory, resolution relative to, offered by, - 26 Printing the rules, resolution for, offered by, 28 Proposition to appoint a standing committee on State boundary, remarks on, - 88 * Proposition to supply the members with newspapers, remarks on, - 44 Invitation to all delegates to present their credentials, remarks on, - 57 Internal improvements, appointed a mem- ber of the committee on, - 68 Militia, appointed chairman of the commit- tee on, - - 68 Limitation of debate, remarks on resolution for, - - 73 Exemption of real and personal property, remarks on, - - 151 Liquor licenses, remarks on proposition for- ever prohibiting, - - 175 Capital punishment, remarks on, - 190 Engrossment, resolution for a standing com- mittee on, offered by, - 197 — Appointed chairman of the committee on, 197 Selected as chairman of the committee of the whole, - - 198 Proposition to submit the question of State boundary to the people, remarks on, - 226 Striking out the word "white," remarks on, - - 338-40 Civilized persons of Indian descent, remarks on the question of extending the right of suffrage to, - - 393 Proposition to submit the question of State boundary to the people, remarks on, 414 Payment of the mileage of members, reso- lution for offered, and remarks on by, 449 Militia, remarks on, - 455 Apportionment of representation, remarks on the, - - 626 jlcgents of the University, remarks on the proposition to elect by the people, 551 Printing the debates and proceedings, re- marks on, - - 560 Extra compensation to the Secretary, reso- lution for, offered by, - 565 Mantor, Frank, (delegate from Dodge) — Compromise committee, remarks on the re- port of, - - 579 Payment of members and officers, remarks on, - - 591 Extra compensation to Messenger, resolu- tion for, offered by, - 589 Married Women, Rights of — Committee on, ordered, - 35 " " appointed, - 6& Report of committee on, - - 99 Amendment to Bill of Rights relative to, 1 64 " adopted, - 174 McOann, Jos. A. (delegate from Houston) — Appointed a member of the Judiciary com- mittee, - - 68- Miscellaneous Provisions, appointed a mem- ber of the committee on, - 68- McOlure, Ciias. (delegate from Goodhue) — Wish of the people to become a State, re- marks on, - - 13, 16 Remarks on resolution inviting members to present credentials, - 64 Organization of Cities and Villages, appoin- ted a member of the crmmittee on, 68' Appointed a member of the Judiciary com- mittee, - - 68 Appointed a member of the committee on banks, - - . . 68 Arrangement and phraseology, appointed chairman of the committee on, 68 Preamble and Bill of Rights, remarks on report of committee on, . . 94 Election returns, resolution to procure cer- tified copy of, offered by, - 88 Libel or Slander, in actions for, jurors to be judges of the law and the fact, remarks on, 159 Rights of Married Women, remarks on, 173 Taking private property for public uses, re- marks on, - - 184 Conduct of the Democrats, resolution rela- tive to, offered by, - 196 Selected as chairman of the committee of the whole, . . 230 Organization of the Convention, speech on, - - 287-96 Banking, &c., remarks on, . 823 Impeachment and removal from office, re- marks on, - - - 833 Striking out the word "white," remarks on, . . . 361 Substitute of Mr. Foster's, to section one, of the report of the committee on the elective franchise, remarks on, - 878 Amendments to the Constitution, remarks on, - - 888 Appointed a member of the compromise conmiittee, - - - 410 Remarks on referring the question of State Boundary to the people, . 437 University of Minnesota, remarks on the location and distribution of the fund of, 495 te« INDEX. McClvre, Chas. (delegate from Goodhue) — Remarks on the report of the compromise committee, . . . 573-7 Remarks on the payment of members and officers, . . 591 McKuxE, Lewis, (delegate from Waseca) — Proposition of Congress, resolution relative to, offered bv, - - 46 Public property and expenditures, appomt- ed a member of the committee on, - 68 Miscellaneous provisions, appointed a mem- ber of the committee on, - 68 Boundary of the State, remarks on the sub- stitute for the report of the committee on, 221 Educational Institutions and Interests, re- mai-ks on, - - 230 County and Township organizations, re- marks on, - - - 262 Finance, Taxation, and Public Debt, re- marks on, - - 463 Internal improvements, remarks on report of committee on, - 475 Assault on Mr. Wn-sox, remarks on, - 559 Compromise committee, remarks on the re- port of, - - 580 Messesger — B. L. Sellers elected^© ton, - 9 " " permanently, - 10 " resigned the office of, - 34 W. H. Shellet, elected, - 35 — extra pay voted to, - 589 Messer, B. E., (delegate from McLeod) — Preamble and Bill of Rights, appointed a member of the committee on, - 63 Educational institutions and interests, ap- pointed chairman of the committee on, 68 — Remarks on, - 247 Impeachments and removal from office, ap- pointed chairman of the committee on, 68 Elections and credentials, appointed mem- ber of the committee on, - 68 County and township organization, remarks on, - - 259 Striking out the word " white," remarks on, - - - - 337-8 Civilized persons of Indian descent, re- marks on proposition to extend the elec- tive franchise to, - 394 Printing boundary resolntion, remarks on, 445 Compromise committee, remarks on the report of, . . . 579 Mills, "Wiluam H., (delegate from Olm- sted)— Presents his credentials, - 27 Appointed a member of the committee on educational institutions and interests, 68 Public property and expenditures, appoint- ed a member of the committee on, - 68 Object of a constitution, resolution declaring the fundamental, offered by, - 152 Preamble and Bill of Rights, remarks on 195 Mills, William H., (delegate from Olmsted.) Selected as chairman of the committee of the Whole, . . 387 Judiciary, remarks on the report of the committee on, - - 406 Finance, Taxation and Public Debt, remarks on, - - - - 472 Manner of voting for the Constitntion, re- marks on, - - 528 Location of the Capitol, submits a resolu- tion for, - - 537 MnjTiA — Committee on, ordered, . . 35 " appointed, 68 Report of committee on, . 417 Consideration of Report, - 454 Report ordered engrossed, . 462 — read a third time and adopted, . 537 Miscellaneous Provisions — Committee on ordered, . 36 " " appointed, . • 68 Report of committee on, • 538 — taken up in committee of the Whole, 543 — ordered engrossed, . 553^ j Morgan, David (delegate fit)m Heimepin) — Executive department, appointed a member of the committee on, - 68 Punishment of Crimes, appointed a mem- ber of the committee on, - 68 Organization of Cities and villages, appoin- ted chairman of committee on, - i§ Selected as chairman of the committee of the whole, - - 127 Punishment of crimes, remarks on, . 14& Exemption of Real and Personal Estate, remarks on, - 149 Slander or libel, in actions for, jurors to be judges of the law and the fact, remarks on, 161 Agricultural lands, remarks on leases of, 161 Legislative Department, remarks on, 20O Educational Institutions and Interests, re- marks on the report of the committee on, 238 State officers other than executive, remarks on, - - 284 Banking, &c., remarks on, - 316 Striking out the word " white," remarks on, ' - - 343 Elective franchise, remarks on, - 382 Amendments to the Constitntion, remarks on, - - 387 Printing boundary resolutions, remarks on, 443 Militia, remarks on the organization of, 461 Finance, Taxation and Public Debt, re- marks on, - . - 4g3 Public Property, remarks on the report of the committee on, - - 475 Common highways, navigable waters, re- marks on, - . 477 University of Minnesota, remarks on the location and distribution of the fund of, 487 Escheats, remarks on the subject of, . 493 State officers, remarks on the time of the INDEX. Morgan, David, (delegate from Hennepin) — qualifications of, - 521 Apportionment of representation, remarks on, . . . 527 Remarks on the report of the committee on Miscellaneous Provisions, - 543 Election of Regents of the University by the people, remarks on proposition for, 546 Printing the Debates and Proceedings, re- marks on, - - 560 MuRPiiY, J. H. (delegate from St. Anthony) Elective Franchise, appointed a member of committee on, . . 68 Public Property and Expenditures, appoin- ted a member of the committee on, 68 Legislative Department, remarks on, 207 Striking out the word "white," remarks on, 347 Apportionment of Representation, remarks on, - - 527 Neill, E. D.— Elected Chaplain, - - 10 Communication from, - 28 — read and filed, - - 46 Newspapers — Resolution relative to the supply of, to the members, - - 40 — discussion of, - 40-6 — referred to select committee, 46 — Report of committee on, . 47 Officers allowed, - 81 North, J. TV. (delegate from Rice) — Convention called to order by, - 9 Committee on Credentials, appointed chair- man of, - - 9 Substitute to resolution on the wish of the people to become a State, offered by, 21 — • remarks on, - - 21-2 Resolution to admit Mr. Sheldon to a seat, remarks on, - - 29, 33 Resolution of Invitation to delegates to present their credentials, . 56 — remarks on, . . 58 Resolution for the employment of a Re- porter, offered by, . 66 Legislative Department, appointed chair- man of the committee on, . 68 Elective Franchise, appointed a men:ber of committee on, . 68 Arrangement and phraseology, appointed a member of the committee on, . 68 Judiciary, appointed a member of the com- mittee on, - - 68 Supplies and Expenditures, appointed a member of the committee on, - 68 Limitation of discussion, remarks on, 73 Preamble and Bill of Rights, remarks on the report of the committee on, . 90 Selected as chairman of the committee of the Whole, . . 13,128,280 Exemption of Real and Personal Estate, remarks on, . . 150 North, J. W., (delegate from Rice) — The rights of married women, remarks on, 170 Taking Private Property for public uses, re- remarks on, . . 184 Legislative Department, remarks on the re- port of the committee on, . 200 Educational institutions and interests, re- marks on, - - 236, 238 County and township organization, remarks on, . . 277 Organization of the convention, speech on, - - 296-807 Banking, remarks on the' report of the com- mittee on, - - 330 Striking out the word "white," speech on, 347-60 Remarks on Mr. Foster's substitute to sec- tion one for the report of the committed on elective franchise, - 375 Remarks on report of the committee on State seal and coat of arms, - 411, 518 Proposition to submit the question of Boun- dary to the people, remarks on, - 436 Printing boundary resolutions, remarks on, 445 Militia, remarks on the report of the com- mittee on, - - 455 University of Minnesota, remarks on the location and distribution of the fund of, 481 Reconsideration of vote relative to the Uni- versity, remarks on, - 499 Navigable waters, remarks on the subject of, 510 Manner of voting for the constitution, re- marks on, - - 52S Qualification of State officers, remarks on, 532 Compromise committee, remarks on the re- port of, - - 579 Resolution relative to the payment of mem- bers and officers, offered by, - 590 — Remarks on, - - 590 Official Reporter — Committee appointed to employ, - 28 " employ T. F. Andrews, - 66 Resolution relative to the payment of, %6 " " discount on orders for, 586 Organization — Temporary organization of the convention, 9 Permanent " " " 10 Of Representative bodies, resolution of Mr. FoLSOM, - - 82 Of the convention, speech of Mr. Foster, 29-33 " " " Mr. CoGGSWBLL, 74-8 " " " Mr. Balcombe, 115-27 " " Mr. McClurb, 287-96 " " " Mr. North, 299-307 Organization op Cities, &c, — Committee on, ordered, - 85 " " appointed, - 68 Report of committee on, - - 127 " taken up in committee of the whole, 230 " stricken out, - - 280 Owens & Moore — Elected printers to the convention, - 88 Resolution relative to the payment of, 586 INDEX. ini Pavmext of Members — Resolution of Mr. Maxtor, relative to, 449 " laid on the table, - 454 " of Mr. BiLLDCGS relative to, 584 " laid on the table, - 584 Peckham, Jos., (delegate from Goodhue,) — Invitation to all delegates to present their credentials, remarks on, - 62 Finance, Taxation and Public Debt, appoint- ed a member of committee on, C8 Exemption of real and personal estate and rights of married women, appointed a member of committee on, - 68 Executive department, remarks on the re- port of the committee on, - 131 Exemption of real and personal estate, re- marks on, - - 150 Engrossment, appointed chairman of ihe mittee on, - - 197 Educational Institutions and Interests, re- marks on, - - 235 Resolution for printing the constitution, of- fered by, - - 537 Election of Regents of the University by the people, remarks on proposition for, 550 Pebkixs, Oscab F., (delegate from Rice,) — Wish of the people to become a State, re- marks on. - - 19 Newspapers, resolution for the supply of, offered by, - - 40 — Remarks on, - 44 Accepting the proposition of Congress, re- solution relative to, oflFered by, - 66 State boundaries, selected as Chairman of the committee on, - 68 Internal Improvements, appointed a mem- ber of the committee on, - 68 j Resolution of inquiry ofiFered by, whether I the Assessors, have taken the number of inhabitants, . . 74 Resolution granting the use of the Hall to Dr. Roberts, ofiFered by, . 108 Preamble and Bill of Rights, remarks on, 100, 114 Executive department, remarks on the re- port of the committee on, . 130 Rights of Married Women, remarks on, 172 Taking private property for public uses, remarks on, . . 183 Educational Institutions and Interests, re- marks on, . . 234 Banking, Ac, remarks on, . 318 Striking out the word "white," remarks on, . . 371-5 Elective Franchise, remarks on, - 386 Civilized persons of Indian descent, remarks on proposition to extend the elective fran- chise to, - - - 393 Boundaries of the State, proposition to refer the question of, to the people, . 428 Location of the Capital at St. Peter, re- marks on, . . 531 D Perkins, Oscab F., (delegate from Rice) — Manner of voting on the Constitution, re- marks on, . . 525 Apportionment of representation, remarks on, - - 529 Qualifications of State OflScers, remarks on, 534 Printing Debates and Proceedings, remarks on, Compromise committee, remarks on the report of, , . 567 Payment of members and officers, remarks on, - - 695 Personal Explanation — Remarks of Mr. Hatdex, . 452 " " WiLSOx, . , 560 Petition — Of L. H. Bond, and others, citizens of Dodge county, . . 87 Phelps, Botd, (delegate from Mower,) — Presents his credentials, - 4€ Appointed member of committee on the ex- emption of real and personal estate and the rights of married women, - 68 Public property and expenditures, appoint ed a member of committee on, - 68 Engrossment, appointed a member of the committee on, 63 Closes the Convention with prayer, - 696 Preamble and Bill of Rights — Committee on, ordered, 8fi " " appointed, - 68 Report of committee on, - - 78 — taken up in committee of the whole, 88, 100, [109, 127 Substitute for proposed, - 15$ Special report of committee on, 259 Read a third time and adopted, - 504 President of the Convention — President pro tern elected, 9 *' elected permanentij, - 10 Vote of thanks to, - 587 Remarks on the adjoornment, - 696 Printing — Committee on, ordered, ss Of the Enabling Act, ordered, - if) Of the Convention, resolution relative to, 46 Of the reports, ordered, - 80 Election of printer, " - - 82 OwEXS k MooRK elected printers, - 88 Of the Constitution, ordered, - 637 Of the Proceedings and Debates, resolution * for, offered, - - 650 — Resolution adopted, - 584 Of the Journal, ordered, - 688 Proposition of Congress — (See Acceptance.) XIV INDEX. Public Pbopebty — Committee on, ordered, • - - 86 " appointed, - - 68 Report of the committee on, - 84 Consideration of report, - MO Report read a third time and adopted, - 558 Punishment of Crimes — Committee on, ordered, - 86 " appointed, . - 68 Report of committee on, - 87 Consideration of report, - 147 Report re-committed, - 149 Putnam, S. W., (delegate from St. Antho- ny,)— Legislative Department, appointed a mem- ber ol the committee on, - 68 State Boundaries, appointed a member of the committee on, - 68 Begistby Clause — Resolution of Mr. King relative to a, 74 Reporting — Special committee on, appointed, - 28 • — Report of, - - 66 Resolutions — Relative to the wish of the people to become a State, - - 11 Substitutes for, - IS, 18, 21, 25 Relative to the census of the Territory, 26 Substitute for, - - 27 Relative to printing the Rules, - 28 Admitting Charles B. Sheldon to a seat, 28 Relative to the use of the Territorial Li- brary, - - 89 For the supply of Stationery, - 40 To print the Enabling Act, - 40 For the supply of Newspapers, - 40, 47 Accepting the Proposition of Congress, 46 Relative to incidental printing, - 46 To procure a certified copy of the Legisla- tive Act, authorizing the formation of a Constitution, - - 49 Relative to officeholders in the Convention, 53 For the admission of all members on terms of equality, - - 56 To delay the appointment of committees, 57 To wait upon the United States Marshal, 65 For the employment of a Reporter, 66 Substitute to, accepting the proposition of Congress, . . 66 To limit discussion, - 71 Of inquiry, whether the Assessors of the Territory have filed lists of the inhabitants, 74 • Of inquiry into the expediency of a registry clause, f . .74 For holding one session per day, . 74 To furnish officers of the Convention with newspapers, . , 81 Relative to the organization of representa- tive bodies, . . S3 Resolutions — To procure a certified copy of the returns of the late election, . . 88 For a committee on leave of absence, 99 Granting the use of the Hall to Rev. Dr. Roberts, . . 108 Declaring the fundamental object of a Con- stitution, . . 152 For a standing committee on Engrossment, 197 To adjourn sine die on the seventh of August, 197 Relative to equal suffrage, . 367 To adjourn sine die, August thirteenth, 400 Referring the question of Boundary to the people, . . 408 For the appointment of a compromise com- mittee, . . 410 Directing the Secretary to communicate compromise resolutions to the Democratic Convention, . . 441 To submit the question of Negro Suffrage, 440 Relative to the payment of the mileage of members, . . 449 To print the Constitution, ' . . 537 To submit the location of the Capital to the people, . . 537 Substitute for the same, . . 537 To adjourn sine die, August twenty-seventh, 558 Relative to the assault upon Mr. Wilson, 554 To print the Debates and Proceedings, 559 Relative to the expenses of the Convention, 565 Allowing extra compensation to the Secre- tary, - - 565 Relative to the report of the Compromise Committee, - - 583 Relative to the payment of the members, 584, 586 Relative to enrolling the Constitution, 584 Relative to authenticating the Constitution, 58g Relative to printing the Journal, - 585 To audit the accounts of official reporter, 586 To audit the accounts of Owens & Moorb, 586 Relative to the certificates of the Democrat- ic members, - - 586 Relative to signing the Constitution, 586 Relative to the pay of the Reporter, 586 Of thanks to the President and officers of the Convention, - 587 Relative to translating the Constitution, 587 Granting extra pay to Assistant Sergeant- at-Arms, - - 687 Relative to certain expenses, • 587 Adopting the enrolled report of the commit- tee of Conference, - 688 To transcribe the Constitution on parchment, 589 Granting extra pay to the Sergeant, at- Arms, 589 For extra pay to members, - 689 Granting extra pay to the Assistant Secre- tary, - • 689 Granting extra compensation to Messenger, 689 Respecting the payment of members and officers, - - 690 Relative to the conduct of the Democratic Convention, - • 595 INDEX. xr RoBBiNS, Nathak B., (delegate from Olm- sted,) — Wish of the people to become a State, re- marks on, - - 14, 21 Internal Improvements, appointed chairman of the committee on, - 68 Schedule, appointed a member of the com- miitee on, - - 6S Selected as chairman of the committee of the Whole, - - S90 Assault on Mr. Wilsox, remarks on, - 554 Printing the Debates and Proceedings, re- marks on, - - 559 Report of Conference committee, remarks on, - - 570 Resolution granting extra compensation to Assistant Secretary, oflFered bv, - 6S9 RtLES OF Proceeding — Committee appointed to report on, - 11 Of last House of Representatives adopted temporarily, - - 11 Report of committee on, - 27 Two hundred copies of, ordered printed, 28 Amendment proposed to, - 232 Russell, William F., (delegate from Hen- nepin,) — County and Township Organization, ap- pointed a member of the committee on, 68 Enrollment, appointed a member of the committee on, - - 221 State OflBcers, other than executive, remarks on, - - 284 Salaries — Committee on, ordered, - 36 " appointed, - 68 Report of committee on, - 837 Report on, taken up in committee of the whole, - - 390 Ordered engrossed, - 891 Read a third time and adopted, - 537 Salt Spkixgs — Debate relative to the disposition of, 490 Schedule — Committee on, ordered, . . 36 " appointed, . 68 Report of committee on, . . 504 Taken up in committee of the Whole, 520 Report ordered engrossed, . 536 Reported correctly engrossed, . 537 Seal axd Coat of Arms — Committee on ordered, . 182 " " appointed, . • 182 Report of committee on, • 336 — taken up in committee of the Whole, 411 — ordered engrossed, . 504 Report recommitted, . 520 — reported back, . . . 520 Substitute for adopted, . . 637 87 41 63 63 Secombe, D. a. (delegate from St. An- thony) — Proposition to appoint standing committee on State Boundary, remarks on. Proposition to furnish the Convention with newspapers, remarks on. Act of the Legislature authorizing the Con- vention, remarks on, — Resolution relative to, oflFered by, 'Appointed Chairman of the committee on Public Property, Banking, Ac, appointed a member of the committee on, .... Preamble and Bill of Rights, remarks on the report of the committee on, . 92,118 Executive Department, remarks on the re- port of the committee on, . 139 Banking, &c., remarks on the report of the committee on, . . . 141,309 Libel or Slander, in actions for, jurors to be judges of the law and the fact, remarkson, 160 Rights of Married Women, remarks on, 163 Taking private property for public uses, re- marks on, - - 187 Legislative Department, remarks on the re- port of the conmaittee on, . 200 The St. Anthony delegates, speech on the regularity of the election of, . 209-19 County and township organization, remarks on. State officers other than executiTe, remarks on. Impeachment and removal from oflBce, re- marks on, ... Substitute of ^r. Foster's, to section one, of the report of the committee on the elective franchise, remarks on. Judiciary, remarks on the report of the committee on. Resolution for the payment of members, re- marks on, ... Proposition to submit the question of Boun- dary to the people, remarks on, Navigable waters, remarks on the subject of, - - - 477,511 University of Minnesota, remarks on the location and distribution of the fund of, 479,502 Salt Springs, remarks on disposition of, 490 Escheats, remarks on the subject of, . 492 Reconsideration of vote relative to the Uuiversity, remarks on, - 493 Manner of voting for the constitution, re- marks on, • • 660 Qualitication of State officers, remarks on, 633 Apportionment of representation, remarks on the, - - - 626 Regents of the University, remarks on the proposition to elect by the people, 543 Assault on Mr. Wilsox, remarks on, - 556 Compromise committee, remarks on the re- port©^ - . Sli 262 286 SS3 377 401 449 469 tvi INDEX. Secombe, D. a., (delegate from St. An- thony) — Resolution relative to the payment of mem- bers and officers, remarks on, - 590 Offers resolution relative to the enrolled copy of the Constitution, - 583 Secretary of the Convention — L. A. Babcock, elected pro tern, - 9 " " permanently, - .10 Extra compensation allowed to, - 525 Sellers, B. L. — Elected Messenger, pro tern. - 9 " " permanently, - 10 Resigned the office of, - - 34 Sergeant-at-Arms — Wm. Fosteh, elected pro tern. - 7 " " permanently, - 10 Extra pay to, - - 589 Settler on School Lands — Amendment to report of committee on Ed- ucational Institutions, &c., respecting, 255 Amendment rejected, - 258 SnELDON, Charles B., (delegate from Hen- nepin,) — Opened the Convention with prayer, - 11 Submits his petition for a seat, - 27 Report on petition, - - 28 — re-referred to committee, - 83 Second report of committee, - 52 Admitted to a seat, - 53 Legislative Uepariment, appointed a mem- ber of the committee on, - 68 Schedule, appointed a member of the com- mittee on, - - 68 Educational Institutions and Interests, re- marks on the report of committee on, 233 Shelley, Wm. H. — Elected Sergeant-at-Arms j>roigtrict—P. A. Ckdebstam, W. H. C. Fol- so3t, L. K. Staxxabd, Chas. F. Lowe ; TAird DUfrict—S. W. Pctsam, D. M. Hall, D. A. Secombe, p. "Wkkll, L. C. Walkzk, J. H. MCBPHT ; Fourth District — Charles McCLrRK, Aarox G. HcDsox, Geo. Watso.v, Fbaxk Maxtor, Joseph Peckham ; I'i/th District — ^Frederick Ater ; Sixth District — Johx W. North, Thomas Bolles, Oscar F. Perkixs, Thos. Foster, Thos. J. Gal- BRAITH, D. D. DiCKIXSOX ; Eighth District — Alaxsox B. Yacghx, C. W. Thompsox, Johx A. Axdersox, Chas. A. Cob, N. B. CoLBURX, Jos. A. McCaxx, H. a. Billixgs, Charles Haxsox, H. W. Holly, Johx CleghObk, a. H. Bctler, Robert Ltle ; Jiinth District — St. A. D. Balcombe, Charles Gerrisb, Siheox Haedixg, Nathax B. Robbiss, Wm. J. Dult, Sam. A. Kemp, Thomas Wilsox, David L. Kixg, Bexjamix C. Baldwix ; Tfnth District — Amos Coggswell, Lewis Mc- KcxB, Edwix Page Davis ; Eleventh District — Cyrus Aldrich, Wextwobth Haydkx, R. L. Bartholomew, W. F. Rcssell, Hexry Eschlie, David ^Iorgax, E. X. Bates. Albert W. Coombs, T. D. Smith, and B. E. Messer. On motion of Mr. FOSTER, editors and reporters of newspapers were invited to seats within the bar. On motion of Mr. THOMPSON, the report of the committee on Credentials was accepted. Mr. SECOMBE moved that the credentials 10 MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Mondat, JuLt 13. presented be «>ntered at large on the journal. He wisbe,(^ that from the very commencement it s-^hoald become apparent upon what basis we are proceeding. Mr. FOSTER approved of the motion. The Convention had no archives in which its pa- pers are to be deposited. The journal was the only record of the Convention, and he hoped these credentials would be spread upon that record. The motion was agreed to. MEMBERS QUALIFIED. On motion of Mr. NORTH, Maj. Fukber, a justice of the peace, administered to the dele- gates present, the usual oath to support the Constitution of the United States. The PRESIDENT pro tern, then annoimced that fifty-six delegates, a majority of the au- thorized number of members of the body, being present and in their seats, the Conven- tion was open for the transaction of any busi- ness which might come before it. PERMANENT ORGAXIZATION. On motion of Mr. NORTH, the Convention proceeded mva voce to elect a permanent Pre- sident, when it appeared that St. A. D. Bal- COMBE received fifty-five votes and Mr. Al- DRicn one. On motion of Mr. NORTH, Messrs. Foster and Thompson conducted the President elect to the chair. The PRESIDENT then addressed the Con- vention as follows : Gentlemen of the Convention : I return to you my sincere thanks for this mark of your kind consideration in electing me as your presiding officer. I assume the duties of this position with a knowledge of the fact that there are many members of this Conven- tion now before me, who are much better qualified to perform its duties than myself. But I ask it as a favor of each and every member, to aid me so far as it is possible so to do, in the performance of the responsible duties to which you have assigned me. I shall endeavor to discharge them to the best of my ability ; and if I fail, it will be simply because I have not the ability, and not because I have not the ambition and dispo.sition to pcrfonn the duties assigned mc in a creditable manner. I again return my sincere thanks for your consideration, and for the honor you have conferred upon me. [Applause.] On motion of Mr. STANNARD, the Con- vention proceeded Xiixia wee to the election of a permanent Secretary. The roll was called and L. A. Babcock, of St. Paul, having received all the votes cast, (fifty-six) w'as declared to be duly elected. On motion of Mr. WILSON, the Convention proceeded mva voce to the election of perma- nent Assistant Secretary. The roll was then called, and J. Q. A. Ward, of St. Paul, having received all the votes cast, (fifty-six) was declared to be duly elected. On motion of Mr. FOSTER, the Convention proceeded to the election of Scrgeant-at-Arms. The roll being called, there were fifty -five votes cast, of which Wm, Foster, of Dakota County, received fifty-four, and B. L. Sellors one. Whereupon, Wm. Foster was declared duly elected. On motion of Mr. THOMPSON, the Con- vention proceeded to the election of a perma- ment Messenger. The vote being taken, B. L. Sellors, of Fillmore County, was unani- mously elected. On motion of Mr. FOSTER, the Convention elected Gustav Leue, of Ramsey County, as Fireman of the Convention. On motion of Mr. GALBRAITH, the Con- vention proceeded to the election of Chaplain. Mr. GALBRAITH nominated the Rev E. D. Neill, of St. Paul, and said : I desire simply to remark, that Mr. Neill is one of the pioneers of this country, and has identified himself with its original history. He camo here at an early day, one of the first perma- nent ministers of the gospel among the whites in the Territory. Mr. FOSTER. Having had a long acquaint- ance with Mr. Neill, I can, with Mr. Gal- BRAiTH, endorse his qualifications. He has been the historian of the territory, and has contributed much to giving it position at homo and abroad. As a liistorical man, wc shall do ourselves credit in electing him — as we may be called a historical convention, being the first to lay the foundations of a state — and at the same time we shall pay a deserved com- pliment to him. Mr. NORTH fiirther testified to the high character of the nominee, after which the vote MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Monday, Jclt 18. 11 being taken, Mr. Neill was unanimously | elected. On motion of Mr. WILSON, such ofiBcers of the Convention as were present, were duly- qualified by taking the oath of office, adminis- tered by Maj. P. P. Fukbeb, Justice of the Peace. RULES OF PROCEEDINGS. Mr. GALBRAITH moved that a committee of three be appointed by the chair to complete and report a code of rules for the government of the Convention. The motion was agi-eed to. The PRESIDENT appointed Messrs. Gal- BRAiTH, Wilson- and McKune as such com- mittee. On motion of Mr. ALDRICH, the rules of the last House of Representatives of the Ter- ritorial Legislature were adopted as the rules of the Ccmvention, as far as they were appli- cable, imtil the select committee on Rules should report, and their report be accepted. On motion of Mr. WATSON, Messrs. Mc- Clcre and Aldkich were appointed a com- mittee to wait upon the Chaplaia elect, and inform him of his election. The organization of the Convention being completed, the Rev. Mr. Sheldon opened the Convention with prayer, in the absence of the Chaplain elect. WISH OF the people TO BE ADMITTED AS A STATE. Mr. GALBRAITH (by imanimous consent) read the Enabling Act of Congress, and then offered the following resolution : *'Ees6lv(d, That in the opinion of this Conven- tion, it is the wish of the people of the proposed State of Minnesota, to be admitted into the Union at this time, in accordance with the act of Congress entitled 'an act to authorize the people of the Territory of Minnesota to form a constitution and state government, preparatory to their admission into the Union on an equal footing* with the original states. Approved, March — , 185T." Mr. STANNARD. I offer the following substitute : "Seaolved, By the delegates elected in pursuance of the provisions of the act of Congress, approved March — , entitled ' an act to authorise the people of the Territory of Minnesota to form a constitu- tion and state government preparatory to their admission into the Union on an equal footing with the original states,' in Convention now assembled, to form such constitution, in accordance with said act, that it is the wish of the inhabitants residing within the limits described in said act, to be ad- mitted in the Union as a State in pursuance of said act." Mr. GALBRAITH. I will accept the substitute. Mr. COGGSWELL. If I understand the language of that resolution, and the language of the Enabling Act, the)' do not correspond in some very essential features. The Enabling Act provides that when the delegates elected shall assemble at the Capitol, they shall " first " determine by a vote whether it is the wish " of the people of the proposed State " — ^the "people," not "the inhabitants" — "to be " admitted into the LTnion at this time." I vmderstand that there is a material difference between that language, and the language of the resolution, and I am in favor of having the language' of the Enabling Act incorporated, verbatim et literatim, into that resolution as far as it can be done. Mr. STANNARD. The words of my re- solution are taken from the first part of the first section of the Enabling Act, and fi-om the second section, in which the term " peo- ple" is used, which I consider synonomoua with " inhabitants." Mr. COGGSWELL. Teiy true; but I make a distinction between the acts of the inhabitants of the Territory of Minnesota as laid down and defined in the first section^ and the actions and conduct of the delegates when assembled at the Capitol for the purpose of determining whether it is the wish of the people to come into the Union upon an equal footing with the original States. I am com- pelled to vote against the resolution imtil it is so fipamed as to include in it the words of the Enabling Act, which specifies what shall be done by the Convention when assembled, so that there may be no doubt of its meaning, and no advantage taken in any way, shape or manner. Mr. THOMPSON. I move that the reso- lution be referred to a select committee of three, with instructions to report to-morrow a resolution in proper form. Mr. STANNARD. I hope the motion will not prevail. I think there is every evidence of a long day's session, and I dislike very much to sit here without having something to i do. It seems that this is the key-stone of ' our action, and we have to decide upon this before we can advance another step. Mr. ALDRICH. I move to amend the motion by striking out " select committee of 13 MINxNiESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Monday, July 18. three," and substituting " a committee of the Whole." Mr. STANNARD. Would not the reso- lution then be just where it is now ? Mr. FOSTER. When we are in committee of the Whole, amendments of all kinds and shapes may be adopted,* rejected or changed about to suit the wishes of this body; the proceedings are not recorded upon the jour- nals, or only so much of them as the House afterwards adopts ; greater latitude of debate is allowed, and an opportunity is afforded to the President of the Convention to participate in the discussion. For these reasons, I hope it will be sent to a committee of the AVhole. Mr. HAYDEN. It seems to me that it would expedite business to refer the resolu- tion to a select committee, which, I presume, would report back such a resolution as would satisfy the Convention. Mr. COGGSWELL. As a member of this Convention I desire that, in taking a step of this importance, we should act carefully, cau- tiously, prudently and correctly. Our actions will be criticised, and so far as I am con- cerned, I am in favor of placing them in such a shape that there shall be very little chance for criticism or doubt. I can already see a cloud lowering over us — and my apprehen- sions are not, in my judgment, unfounded — and it becomes us, as members of the Con- vention, to look well to every step we take. If I understand correctly the language of the Enabling Act, and the proper construction which is to be placed upon it, the resolution which is adopted by the Convention should incorporate substantially the language used in that Act ; and if the pending resolution shall be sent to the committee of the Whole, I shall ofifer an amendment which will accomplish that end. Mr. KING. I second the motion for the reference of these resolutions, and I hope they will lie over imtil to-morrow to give the mem- bers of the Convention time to reflect upon them, and make up their minds. I conceive this to be the most expeditious, and certainly the safest mode of proceeding. A great many of us are uninitiated in these proceedings, and the noise and confusion has been so great that all have not been able to understand all that has been said. I hope, therefore, the rcsolu- tion« will lie over until to-morrow to give us nn opportunity of examining them at our lodgings, and of consulting -with each other relative to them. We shall then be able to act understandingly. Mr. ALDRICH. I dislike very much to obtrude myself upon the Convention, but I wish to state to those who may not be fami- liar with the rules, my understanding of this matter. If this resolution and substitute are referred to a committee of the Whole, it wiQ be in the power of that committee to report them back at any time. If I understand the rules, they will come before the Convention again just as easily from a committee of the Whole as from a committee of three members. The object of referring to a committee of the Whole is to give us all an opportimity for ex- amination and discussion among ourselves.^ Every member who desires will have the op- portunity of speaking upon them, and I do not laiow why we may not arrive at correct conclusions by this course as well as by any other. I shall have no objection to adjourn- ing, and allowing the matter to go over imtil to-morrow, if we could adjourn with any safe- ty ; but as we are obliged to remain here, let us examine the matter coolly, quietly and calmly, and see if we cannot come to a cor- rect understanding of it. Mr. FOSTER. I agree with gentlemen that we should correct the phraseology of the resolution so as to make it conform ex- actly to the provisions of the Enabling Act ; and although we might refer the* matter to a committee, who could retire and report forth- with, still, I see no reason why the resolution cannot as well be perfected in committee of the Whole, where there is perfect freedom in offering and discussing amendments. When we have agreed upon the phraseology of the amendment, we can report it back to the Convention, and adopt it. I hope the vote will be taken without further delay, for, as near as I can get at it, we can do no business until we have disposed of this ; but when we have disposed of this, we are then rectus in curia, ready to proceed with the business of the Convention. This is an important crisis ! and we must move carefully, cautiously, and at the same time decisively. Sending this matter to committee of the Whole, where we can hear and offer amendments, seems the course be»t calculated to accomplish our ob- MIX^fESOTA C0N\T:NTI0N debates— Mont)ay, Jclt 13. 13 ject We can then go into Convention, and take decisive action upon it. Mr. ilcCLURE. I tiiink we can reach this matter without going into committee of the Whole at all. It seems to me we can dispose of it just as well in Convention as in committee, because we are just the same body with a difiFerent head, and I do not see what we should effect by it. If the gentle- man over the way [Mr. Coggswell] will offer the amendment which he has prepared, we can consider it just as well here as in com- mittee. If it should meet the views of gen- tlemen here, those who have offered proposi- tions before may be induced to withdraw them, add we can adopt his resolution, and thus arrive at the ; result we desire by a shorter method than going into committee of the Whole. Mr. HUDSON. I do not consider myself as posted in respect to the difference between acting upon this subject in committee of the Whole and in Convention, but I am decidedly in favor of taking that course which will be most likely to bring about the right result, after a careful investigation of the whole mat- ter. We are here to frame a Constitution for the incoming State of Minnesota; and not only are the eyes of Mumesota rating upon us, but of the whole United States. We act not for the present generation alone, but for coming generations. The Constitution we shall present to the people of Minnesota, we shall present because we do not know enough to make a better one ; and in all our actions we ought to move cautiously. If I could see any eflBcacy in going into committee of the Whole — if as the gentleman [Mr. Fosteb] has said, it can be discussed there more freely — I should be in favor of discussing it there ; but I should like to be enlightened as to the mode in which it is to be accomplished. The PRESIDENT stated that in committee of the Whole members could speak as often as they saw fit to the same question ; while, xmder the rules, no member, in Convention, could spe^ but twice to the same question. Another difference was that the amendments offered in committee of the Whole were not required to be entered on the journal. Mr. GALBRAITH. This resolution is in fact the starting point. Until we a«t upon this matter nothing can be done. For my part, I do not intend to discuss it here, and am decidedly in favor of referring it to a com- mittee of the Whole at once, for reasons and good reasons, already stated. It can there be debated and amended, if necessary, with- out encumbering the journals. The utmost latitude of debate should be allowed, and there is not that freedom of debate here which there is in committee. But it is our business to make short work of this Conven- tion. Our work must be done and well done ; but we can practically do nothing until a re- solution of this character has been passed. The question was taken, and the motion to refer the resolution to a committee of the Whole was agreed to — ayes 24, noes 18. Mr. NORTH moved that the Convention resolve itself into committee of the Whole for the purpose of taking up the resolution just referred there. The motion was agreed to. The Conven- tion accordingly resolved itself into committee of the Whole, (Mr. Nobth in the Chair), and proceeded to the consideration of the resolu- tions relative to the wish of the people to form a State government. Mr. COGGSWELL offered the following substitute for the original resolution : " Sesolved, That it is the wish of the people of the proposed State of Minnesota, at this time, to be admitted into the Union upon an equal footing with the original States." Mr. C. said. If this were the only body to decide upon the correctness and legality of our conduct and proceedings, I apprehend there would be but little difficulty in arriving at the object intended by the original resolu- tion; but our conduct and proceedings are all to imdergo the inspection of Congress ; and sir, in laying down, as we are now doing, the foundation of our futiu« action, I am in favor of laying it down safely and securely ; I am in favor of laying it down in such a manner that neither Congress, nor any other body, can misconstrue our intentions, our ob- jects or our acts. I am satisfied tliat if there were no diversity of opinion with regard to our organization, any resolution which has been offered to accomplish the object we have in view would be pronounced sufficient ; but, sir, I think I can see in the distance an effort being made to distort every act of ours in such manner as will give some little show for u MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Monday, Jclv 13. saying that our proceedings are irregular, illegal, not warranted by the Enabling Act, I have always found it the best plan, in draw- ing up papers founded upon a statute, to fol- low the precise language of that statute as far as possible. When the language of the sta- tute is adopted, there can be but little doubt as to the construction that must be given. Now, gentlemen might suppose that there could be but little doubt as to the construc- tion that must be given to the resolution as originally drawn ; but, sir, there are certain men who will resort to certain tricks to carry out a certain purpose, and I have always found it the better policy to be prepared against every emergency, and to provide against any possible misconstruction. I have, in the substitute I have proposed, followed the exact language of the Enabling Act. Let us see : Section third of the Enabling Act provides that the Convention shall assemble at the Capitol, on the second Monday in July, That we have done — and shall determine by vote, what ? "whether it is the wish of the people " — that is English language — "whether it is " the wish of the people of the proposed State " to be admitted into the Union at this time." That is the language of the Enabling Act, and I think it will be well to incorporate that lan- guage into thi^ resolution in such manner that there can be no doubt left as to its construc- tion or its legal effect. The section goes on to provide that the Convention shall then proceed to fonn a Con- stitution and State government. When we have adopted the resolution required in the Enabling Act, we have the authority to go on and form a Constitution, but not until we have adopted it, I prefer the adoption of the substitute, so that there sliall be no doubt about the legality of our future proceedings. Mr. STANNARD. I think the amend- ment of the gentleman is too ambiguous. It has no reference to the boundaries of the pro- posed State. It makes no reference to the Enabling Act. Now, sir, the substitute which I proposed refers directly to the Act of Con- gress under which we are here. It specifies the inhabitants residing within the limits of the proposed State, referred to in the Ena- bling Act. If there is any surplusage in it, I am willing to have it struck off. I want nothmg but what is right, but I think the amendment last offered is entirely too ambi- guous. Mr. ROBBINS. I was glad when the Convention decided to bring this question re- ferred to, up in committee of the Whole, for two reasons : One was that the resolution, as it then stood, was, in my judgmeut, imper- fect ; and the other was that it was too com- prehensive. The first resolution was brought before us in a hasty manner, and we were told that time was wanting, that we must get through with what we have to do and go home. Well, sir, I for one am opposed to crowding everything into one resolution, I wish to have questions in themselves separate, decided separately. When we are to deter- mine whether the people of Minnesota desire to come into the Union upon an equal footing with the original States, let us vote upon that question alone, and not couple with it another proposition to determine the boundary of the proposed State. Let us vote for the first proposition, upon which there is no difference of opinion, and not couple with it another, upon which there is a difference of opinion, and in which my constituents feel a deep in- terest. I hope the question will be taken simply upon the proposition whether the peo- ple of Minnesota desire to come into the Union as a State. Mr. GALBRAITH. This is a question of some importance. It is one upon which great difference of opinion has heretofore been expressed in the Territory of Minnesota, and I wish simply to express my opinion up- on it. The resolution of the gentleman over the way [Mr. Stannabd], in my opinion, covers the whole groimd. It is in fact this : tliat the people of this Temtory agree to meet here under the Enabling Act, and in accord- ance with that act, I think that resolution fixes the boundary of the proposed State. If we accept the Enabling Act, we accept it as a whole. If we reject a part of it, what guaranty have wo that we do not reject every part of it? Suppose tliat having come to- gether under that act, elected under it, hold- ing our seats by virtue of it, we imdertake to repudiate it, is Congress bound any longer ? They are bound now. Congress, or rather the United States, lias done its part ; and now we are bi process of doing our part. 1 1 is for MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Mosdat. Jilt iS. 15 us to put our signatures to the compact. Let ; us fail to do that and we, as the other party, violate the whole instrument, and the United States are no longer bound. Now, sir, whether this question of boun- : dary is to come up afterwards or not is a { serious one. Here we are cast where ? At ', anchor. The United States, wliich has been ; our guardian for a number of years gone by, has now said to us in effect : " You are old " enough to do for yourselves. Go and so do. " We will give you no more appropriations. " You must go and work your own way." Now, suppose we go and tear up this propo- sition which the United States offers, and strike out in a new course, where shall we be left? At sea, without compass or rudder; perfectly at sea. "VTe make a Constitution there, not under the Enabling Act ; we reject that in the start, and go on our own hooks ; we become squatter sovereigns of the deepest dye. We say we will have our own boun- daries, and the United States may.weU reply : '• Gentlemen, if you reject om* proposition, "you may support your own schools, you "may build your own imiversity, you may i " g^t your own five per cent, of the net pro- , "ceetls of the sales of the public lands for " public buildings." That is what the United States would have the right to say. But there is another view of this matter which is important. The language of the Enabling Act is peculiar. We become a State as soon as we have complied with that act The language is that they shall hecome a Stnte when they have complied with the terms proposed. All we have to do is to adopt a Constitution that is consistent with the Constitution of the United States, elect our own oflScers, go to the door of Congress, and demand admission, and we come right in. We accept of the conditions proposed to us, and eo imtante we are a State sovereignty of this Union. But let us go to work and form a Constitution upon squatter sovereign prin- ciples, and they may become squatter sover- eigns too. Sir, I believe Congress has the right to care for the Territories, and not only that she has the right, but that it is her bounden duty. So long as the men who live there go volun- tarily on the land of the United States, take its money and live under its protection, so long it is their duty to submit to the guidance of the United States. Children who cannot walk, who cannot provide for themselves, should not dress themselves in their parents' clothes. The door is wide open, and let us come in on the terms proposed. I will not debate the question of the r^tive advantage of a north and south or east and west line. I am content to tal:e this proposition as it comes to us. Adopt that and we come into the Union within the next year. Adopt another line and we come in, who knows when ? Here ia another question, and in this Republican Con- vention, I need not hint what may be the probable result. Next winter, in all proba- bility, there will be an application to admit Kansas into the Union. If we comply with the terms proposed, we cannot be denied admission without a breach of feith ; but let us reject those terms, and we may be told that We cannot come into the Union with our free Constitution vmtil Kansas also comes in with her slave Constitution. So. far as the relative advantages of these State lines are concerned, I have not deter- mined in my own mind which carries with it the greatest advantages. If anything, I think the north and south line is the better line of the two ; but whether that be so or not, we came here as practical men, and as practical men, let us not put into our Constitution anything 'which shall endanger its acceptance in Congress or by the people; for, let our Constitution be rejected, and the expenses of this Convention— $50,000, $60,000 or $100,- 000 — will have to be borne by ourselves, and win be worse than thrown away. The people of the Territorj' have, in my opinion, deter- mined already that we shall have a north and south line by electing delegates to this Con- vention under an act prescribing that line. And I take it for granted, that this line was not adopted without a reason. It was adopt- ed, after examining the geography of the country, as the better line. A great many wise men and good men acquainted with the, coimtry, tell me that the north and south line is the best line. Others, equally wise and good, say that the east and west line is better. But I submit it to this committee, whether as Republicans and good citizens we should not accept this proposition as it comes 10 MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Monday, Jllt IS. to us from Congress, with the boundaries de- fined by Congress ? x\t any rate, let us dis- cuss the question calmly and dispassionately, and if gentlemen can show good reasons for a different course, I have no feeling in the mat- ter. Mr. McCLURE. If we, by a vote, deter- mine that we will not accept the proposition made by Congress, I presume our services are at an end, and we have no authority here whatever to go on and form a Constitution as a Constitutional Convention. As such Con- vention we have authority, by the Enabling Act, to say nothing and do nothing as to an east and west line. Congress has passed an act, and made provision by which we may come in as a State on an even footing with the original States, provided that when we assemble in this Constitutional Convention, we say by a vote that we wUl accept the terms proposed in that act. A refusal to ac- cept them is equivalent to saying we will go home, for surely no individual will sit here after that refusal. If we do accept of the terms, then, so far as the line is concerned, it is fixed by Congress, and we can go on and frame a Constitution. If we do not accept them, we may as well go home and wait un- til some other provision is made to enable us to come into the Union on an equal footing with the orignal States. I have no interest in a north and south line, any more than I have in an east and west line ; but I have an interest, as a citizen of the Territory of Minnesota, within the boimds prescribed by the act of Congress, in common with very many at least, to cease to be a Territory, and to come in as a State; and if I had any pecuniary interest in tMs matter, I should sacrifice it in order to get out of the condition in which we are now placed. We cannot form a Constitution, ex- cept for the limits prescribed by the Enabling Act, and consequently I am in favor of ac- cepting the terms of that act, and going on and framing a Constitution. Suppose we re- fuse to accept the terms, we may as well, as I said before, go home. Suppose we do go home, and to-morrow at twelve o'clock an- other Convention, headed by a government oflBccr, shall organize a Convention and accept the proposed terms, they will go on — because they will do almost anything illegal — and frame a Constitution, submit it to the people, and if the Republicans do not go out and vote upon it, of course it will be adopted, and the Republicans will have come here, organized, but refused to do that for which they were sent. For one, I do not feel like going home in that way. I hope gentlemen of the Con- vention will express their views freely upon this point, and come to a determination as soon as possible. Mr. COGGSWELL. I desire to under- stand where I stand, the position I occupy, and the step I am about to take. It seems to me that it does not require a great amount of discrimination to discern between the right of the inhabitants of a certain tract of land to perform a certain act — for instance, to elect certain individuals to represent them in Con- vention — and the acts and conduct of their representatives when assembled in Conven- tion for the purpose of doing what they were sent here to do. I do not understand, as stated by the gentleman from Scott county [Mr. Galbraith], that the moment we adopt this resolution we become a State, and that Congress has no right or authority to say that we are not a State, and not entitled to admission into the Union as a State. Sup- pose that nothing had been done under the Enabling Act, except the election of members to the Convention, do we thereby adopt the whole of that Enabling Act, so as to bind ourselves to the limits proposed by that act ? By no means. Suppose we simply convene here, organize, choose our officers, and take no further steps, do we adopt the provisions of that act in such a manner as to preclude ourselves from saying that we desire a difler- cnt boundary? When we sunply say that the people of the proposed State desire to bo admitted into the Union on an equal footing with the original States, do we say that we adopt the limits proposed by Congress, and that they are perpetually binding upon us as a State ? I do not so understand it. If we compare this act with the Enabling Act of Michigan, wo shall find it substantially the same. Yet it was not the understanding of the Michigan Convention, organized under it, that the limits proposed by Congress were perpe- tually binding upon them, for if they had, in my judgment, they would have recommended a different boundary. MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Monday, July 13. IT I wish my finends to discriminate between a State to be organized within the proposed limits, and the vote we are now called upon to ^ve, which is substantially that the people of the proposed State desire a State organiza- tion, and to come into the Union as one of the States. "When we take this vote, and vote in the affirmative, we are not, as I stated before, a State, but we must go on and make a Con- stitution. If we ne^ect to do that, are we a State? Not by any means. Suppose We frame a Constitution and neglect to have it ratified by the people, are we then a State standing upon an equal footing with other States ? By no means. We are not a State until certain resolutions are passed by Con- gress, sanctioning our form of government as being republican, and sanctioning our pro- ceedings as being carried on under the Ena- bling Act, There is a distinction between the adoption of this resolution, and the binding of ourselves down perpetually to the proposed limits men- tioned in the Enabling Act; and I want members of this Convention to look upon it in that light, if it looks reasonable to them. I am in favor of adopting this resolution, or something substantially the same ; of placing ourselves in a position to frame a Constitu- tion, and then of going before the people and telling them that we have done oxur duty faithfully. If I were to prophecy, it would be that nearly two years will elapse before we be- come a State. My impression is that under the present Administration, whatever Consti- tution is adopted by tliis Convention, as at present organized, that Constitution, though ratified by a very large majority of the in- habitants of the Territory, wiU not be ac- cepted by Congress. For this reason, I de- sire that this question and all other questions be distinctly, perfectly and clearly imder- stood. The idea that the moment we adopt this resolution we are bound down to these limits, is preposterous, and is not foimded in either precedent, common sense, or thfe Ena- bling Act. Mr. BILLINGS. Whether the people of this Territory have the right or not to meet and frame a Constitution and State govern- ment, without any assent upon the part of Congress, I do not propose to discuss. But the first part of this Enabling Act gives to the people of certain portions of this Territory the right to form a State Constitution. The latter part of it, after giving the boimdaries, reads thus : "They are hereby authorized to form for thetn» selves a Constitution and State government by tha name of the State of Minnesota." Now, the Enabling Act does not give to the Territory of Minnesota the right to form this government, but only to the inhabitants of a specific portion thereofl In our reason- ings then, \ve hold that members elected and returned in precincts beyond the proposed boimdaries, cannot sit in Convention. Now, if they cannot, because they are beyond the proposed boundaries, how can we, within the proposed boundaries, legislate for those we would exclude frt)m certain boundaries ? The third section provides for the election of delegates, and the latter clause of it tells us that when we meet, we are to " determine " by a vote." "Who to meet ? The delegates chosen within the boundaries of the proposed State. "What to determine? ""Whether it " is the wish of the people of the proposed " State to be admitted into the Union at this time," as such proposed State. " As such," to be sure, is not expressed, but it is imder- stood. And if they do so determine, they "shall proceed to form a Constitution, and "take all necessary steps for the establish- " ment of a State government." Again, the fourth section says that " in the " event said Convention shall decide in fiivor " of the immediate admission of the proposed " State into the Union, it shall be the duty of " the United States Marshal for said Territory «' to proceed to take a census." Now, if we propose to form a State with boundaries dif- ferent from those proposed in this act, the Marshal is not obliged to take a census. The fifth section offers certain propositions to the " said Convention of the people of Min- " nesota." If the people accept the offered boimdaries, then the people of that Terrritory shall have the right to do so and so. There are questions which, in my mind, outweigh the question of boundary; and it occurs to me that, if we desire an immediate adnMssion into the Union as a sovereign State, we have but one road to pursue — we must accept of tiie conditions without change. 3 18 MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES -Monday, July 13. Think you the Republicans in Convention in Minnesota, can dictate to our superiors not only in the Territory — I speak of them as oflScers and not as men — but to an Adminis- tration which will be adverse to the ruling of this Convention, and succeed ? Certainly not. Hence my vote now is, and always must be, to accept, without restriction or enlargement, •the conditions imposed upon us by the Ena- bling Act. Mr. WILSON. The second resolution is offered as a substitute for the first, and, as a •substitute, is amendable. For the purpose of harmonizing the feelings of those here who may be in favor of different boundaries, I ■propose to offer an amendment to the substi- tute. I do not conceive it necessary or wise, -at the present time, to raise the question of boundary at all. For my own part, I proba- bly agree with both parties. I believe that Congress has the right to prescribe our boundaries, if they so choose. I believe also that we are not required to pursue that boun- dary and that only ; yet, if we vary from it, we may be rejected. I do not believe it necessary, before a Territory assumes a State .government, that there should be any Ena- bling Act, nor do I suppose that if there be, we must follow it out in minutia. We may make such changes as we see fit, and then Congress may act upon it. But at the pres- ent time, I do not wish to raise the question of boundary at all. I wish to accept the act unqualifiedly, I will read the Enabling Act, and then read my amendment, which I hope will be satisfactory , to all parties, and do away with this question for the present Sec- tion three, after first stating how the dele- gates shall be elected and where they shall meet, says they shall "first determine by " vote whether it is the wish of the people of " the proposed State to be admitted into the " Union at this time, &c." That is what we are to vote upon and nothing else. Now, I propose the following substitute : " Resoli>ed, That it is, at this time, the wish of the people residing within the limits designated in the act of Congress approved entitled ' an act to authorize the people of the Territorj- of Minnesota to form a Constitution and State government, preparatory to their ad- mission into the Union on an equal footing with the original States,' to be admitted into the Union upon an equal footing with the original States." This amendment is framed in the very words of the Enabhng Act. That is all, I think, that is necessary in this case. It leaves the matter of boundary untouched. If we must discuss it at all, this is not the time to do so. No man can feel that this re- solution will prejudice us, because it was the very language of the Enabling Act. I would like to see this adopted as a substitute, and the others waived, not because I differ from them altogether, though each is objectionable in some respects. Mr. HUDSON. So far as the substitute of the gentleman from Winona [Mr. Wilson] is concerned, I really do not understand that it differs from the resolution as proposed to be amended by Mr. Coggswell. Each is simply a declaration that the people of Min- nesota desire to become a State. It seems that we are acting under a certain act of Congress, which provides that the people shall meet on a certain day, elect certain dele- gates to appear at a certain time and place to perform certain business. Now, it seems to me a very plain matter that, if the people had met on any other day than the one specified in the act, we should not be delegates such as could act under this Enabling Act. It also seems to me that if the delegates elected had met at any other place than the one de- signated in the act, they could not make a Constitution such as Congress would accept. Congress has provided for our coming into the Union upon certain conditions, and the moment we comply with all those conditions, we become a State. Whenever we step out- side of the limits specified in that Enabling Act, we cease to be delegates competent to act under the law, but should be here simply as an independent body of men, without dele- gated power. Yet, under such circumstances, should we form a Constitution which should be ratified by the people, and Congress should be willing to admit us after examining the matter, it would be all right. But Congress says that after we have done certain acts wo are a State. They will have to take cogni- zance of our proceedings, and unless they can show that we have stepped outside of the privileges they gave us, we shall have a right to claim our place in the Union with all the MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Mosdat, Jclt 13. !»• i^ts and privileges of States. Such seems to me to be the whole matter, and I must support the original resolution, rather than the substitute, not because they essentially differ so much as because I am opposed to encimiberiug our proceedings by a succession of resolutions of substantially the same effect. Mr. PERKINS. By the Enabling Act, we are to determine by a vote whether the peo- ple in the proposed limits vrish to come in as a State, according to the Enabling Act. Does the resolution say " according to the Enabling "Act?" " ' The PRESIDING OFFICER. It does not Mr. PERKINS. Well, it seems to me that the question whether the dividing line shall nm east and west or north and south does not properly arise in this debate. The ques- tion is simply whether the people in the pre- scribed limits wish to come in as a State. It is not a question as to the particular form of the State, or whether anybody outside of those limits wish to come in as the proposed State. If any gentleman here knows of any one who does not wish to come in as the pro- posed State, let him say so. We are to determine the simple question whether the people within the prescribed limits have such a wish ? Let that be first determined, and we can decide the shape of the State after- wards. I presimie no man's constituency desires not to come in as a State. I know there has been a question as to how the line should be run, but as to the other matter there is no question. I see no difference between the ori^al resolution and the substitute offered by the gentleman firom Winona [Mr. Wilsox]. At any rate, I agree with him that the question as to the line is not iDvolved in this proceed- ing. Mr. MANTOR. I conceive that there is a question of vital importance involved in the resolution before the Convention, and in re- ference to which our constituents are looking to us with great interest to know exactly how we cast our votes thereon. They are looking with deep interest to see in what mode and manner this Convention will dispose of the boundaries of the incoming State. I can see nothing in the Enabhng Act which would prescribe any measure which this Convention might see fit to take hereafter to establish an east and west or a north and south line. The resolution should leave that matter an open question. The question to-day seems to be, are we wiUing to become a sovereign State ? and to that question I answer, as an indivi- dual member of the Convention, " yes," and for it I heartily give my vote. I am aware that the eyes of the whole Territory are upon us to see what measxu^s will be taken in this Convention in reference to the proposed limits of the State. I conceive that it is bet- ter for us, imder the peculiar circumstances by which we are svurounded, to assume the ground at least to-day that we will become a State, for if we leave without so doing, a great advantage may be taken of our ne^ect. Our constituents demand immediate action, and will blame us if we postjwne it. K we cannot come at once to a conclusion upon this point, I conceive it would be far better for this Convention to dissolve itself, rather than remain in committee forty-eight hours to discuss a question which seems to be the turning point — and that is whether we wish to become a State. Mr. COLBURN. The gentieman upon my right [Mr. Wilsox] gives, as the first reason why we should support his amendment, that this is not the time to decide the question of the boimdaries of the State. I cannot agree with him in that respect. I believe that this is the time to meet the question, and to meet it fully and fairly. I beheve it should be de- cided now, in the incipient stages of our pro- ceedings. Suppose that we simply declare that the people of the proposed State desire to be admitted into the Union at the present time, without defining the boundaries in any way or manner, what will be the result so far as it relates to our action '? Suppose we ap- point, among other committees, one upon " boundaries," and they should make a re- port, which should be adopted in the Con- vention, in favor of an east and west line, what would be the result ? We should find- men in this Convention living without the limits of the proposed State, and consequent- ly having no right to participate in the pro- ceedings of this Convention. If they have no right to participate in our proceedings, we shall be under the necessity of excluding them. It is true, as gentlemen have argued, thai fO MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Monday, Jclv 13. we can, if we choose, adopt different bounda- ries from those prescribed in the Enabling Act ; but the effect of such a course would be most serious upon the acts of this Con- vention. The Enabling Act commences in these words : " That the inhabitants of that " portion of the Territory of Minnesota which "is embraced within the following limits," and then proceeds to define the boundaries precisely. The third section provides " that •*' on the first Monday of June next, the legal "voters in each representative district then "existing within the limits of the proposed "State." What proposed State? The one proposed within the bpundaries prescribed in the first section, and the voters within those limits, are the ones entitled to elect delegates to the Convention. They have thus far com- plied with the provisions of the act, by elect- ing delegates. If we, in Convention, estab- lish a different line, we repudiate the act, cut ourselves loose from it, and release Congress from all obligation upon their part, so far as this act is concerned. If, _assuming different boundaries, we go on and frame a Constitu- tion and State government. Congress may or may not accept us, as they choose. But there will not be even an implied obligation upon their part. I believe the people have the right to frame a State Constitution with- out an Enabling Act of Congress, but having accepted it by electing delegates, it seems to me the height of folly to cut ourselves loose from it, and adopt a course which is not ex- pected of us by our constituents. I propose to meet this question before we proceed any further, and if any members of the Conven- tion have to leave their seats on account of our decision, adopting another line, let them know it, so that they may leave now. So fiir ae my own feelings are concerned, they are in favor of an east and west line ; but I am .•satisfied that if we cut ourselves loose from the act, there will be the best possible excuse on the part of Congress for rejecting us. ' The Enabling Act itself passed by a very Rmall majority, and the Southern vote was quite unanimously against it. If we send a Constitution to Congress with different boun- daries, ^nd thereby distract the small major- ity by which we got this act, the probability is that we shall be rejected by Congress, and kept out of the Union two or three years longer, a result which would suit quite a large portion of this Union. For one, for the pur- pose of having my preferences gratified, I am not billing to run that risk ; and, therefore, I shall be obliged to vote against the resolution of the gentleman from Winona [Mr. Wilson], upon the ground that it avoids a decision of the question of boundary, and because I de- sire a resolution to be adopted which will embrace exactly the boundaries defined in the Enabling Act. The question was then taken on the sub- stitute offered by Mr. Wilson, and it was not agreed to. The question was next taken upon the substitute offered by Mr. Coggswell, and there were on a division, ayes 15, noes 31. So the substitute was lost. Mr. STANNARD. I now move that the committee rise and report back the original resolution to the House, wdth a recommenda- tion that it be adopted. , The motion was agreed to. So the coromittee rose, and the President having resumed the chair, Mr. Noetii reported back the resolution, with a recommendation that it do pass. Mr. COGGSWELL. I now move to amend the resolution by striking out the word " in- " habitants" and inserting the word "peo- " pie," and by striking out the words " pro- " posed limits" and inserting the words " proposed State." I have no feeling in this matter. I only wish to place the resolution in a position where it cannot be misconstrued. The amendment was agreed to. Mr. WILSON. I shall be very brief, but I cannot consent that this resolution should pass without expressing myself distinctly. I am a little astonished at the course which has been taken by this Convention. I should much preferred to have seen a resolution passed which would have complied with the requisitions of the Enabling Act, without raising the question of boundary at this time. Wc have not the full number of delegates elected to tliis Convention present, and it seems to mo it would be much better, if it is not absolutely requisite, that there should be something like unanimity in the passage of a resolution of this kind. All of us are in favor of coming into the Union under the J^nabling Act, but all of us are not in favor of coming MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Monday, July 13. 21 in according to tlie teiins of the Enabling Act. ; And why is this boundan' question forced \ • upon us in this manner ? It is for the pur- | pose of compelling us to adopt the proposed j boundary, in order to corflply with the terms of the act relative to our ^ish to come in as a I State. It is for that purpose, and members , feeling like myself upon this question do well | to understand it distinctly. It is here for the purpose of compelling us to act without pre- paration. "We are most, if not all of us, here not expecting that we should be called on to act on this boundary question at this time. We have thought of it but a few horns, and we are not read}- to decide it. It should not be decided without full deliberation. Sir, I know the origin of the boundary line laid down in that Enabling Act. I know its inception m Congress. I know how it got there. I know it was not the ^-ish of the people of Southern Minnesota — and we are no small minority in the Territory. Mr. Pre- sident, representing a constituency who feel deeply upon this subject, I protest against this question being decided in such a resolu- tion as this. It is imnecessary. "We may pass a resolution which shall in every respect comply with the requisitions of the Enabling Act, without touching the question of boun- dary at all. But it has been said that this boundary w^ was inserted in the Enabling Act, in pur- "* suance of the petitions which were sent from the Territory. No sir. There was no such thing. The largest nimiber of those peti- tions went from Winona and the coimtry adjacent, and ninety out of a hundred of the signers were in favor of an east and west line. The parties who signed those petitions pro- tested against their being used as induce- ments for the establishment of a boundary to which they were opposed. Sir, our interest, we conceive, will not be satisfied with a north and south line. We have to-day witnessed scenes in this hall which will be reenacted, if this boundary line be confirmed. And why? It is notorious that Saint Paul has controlled the Territory of Minnesota up to this time. They have done it, how ? Have they done it as rowdies and blackguards or as gentlemen, by forca of moral suasion and force of reason ? Answer, ye delegates, answer, for ye know. The rea- sons are obvious why this should not be a State extending from Superior to the Iowa Une. The southern portion of this State is all agricultural. The interests of its inhabi- tants are diverse from those of Saint Paul, and from those of the northern section of the Territory. Adopt the north and south line, and Saint Paul will forever have the manage- ment of the State in her own hands. It must necessarily be so, and what discord will it create in our Legislatures ? We shall have to meet this [thing year after year. I warn gentiemen to beware before they act. The favorers of this north and south line have taken us at the very commencement, and with the very best feeling towards them, I say let us meet them too at the threshold, and not permit this important question to be decided without mature deliberation. That is aU I ask. I am willing that the Conven- tion should act promptly, so far as is neces- sary to comply with the requisitions of the Enabling Act ; and I shall be ready and wil- ling to meet the question of boundary here- after when it shaU arise. The point I wish to make now is, that it is imnecessary at this time to decide the question. Mr. BOBBINS. At the present stage of our proceedings, I do not feel that I could do justice either to myself or my constituency, were I to undertake to answer the arguments that have been introduced here to-day in favor of a north and south line. It is a subject I did not anticipate would be opened at this stage of oiu- proceedings. But, gentlemen, all I ask is that you will allow this subject to go over AntiU to-morrow, and we will be ready to meet you upon this north and south line. I hope the resolution will be laid on the table until that time. Mr. NORTH. I concur fully in the senti- ment of the resolution before us; but its form, it seems to me, is somewhat compli- cated. I think perhaps the phraseology may be improved in some respects, leaving the meaning precisely the same. I have pre- pared a substitute, which I will read to the Convention, if it is in order : " Jiesolved, That it is the wish of the people of the proposed State of Minnesota to be admitted into the Union at this time, in accordance with the provisions of the act of Congress entitled ' an act to authorize the people of the Territory of Minne- sota to form a CoiistitutioD and State government, 22 MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Monday, Jilt 18. preparatory to their adinissiofi into the Union on au equal footing with the original States.' " This is substantially the same in meaning as the resolution now before the Convention, and it contains the provision that the State shall be admitted in accordance with the terms of the Enabling Act. If the resolution is in order, I should like to say a few words in connection with it. I wish to say in regard to the form, that I hardly deemed it necessary to say " we the " delegates, &c." This is a regularly organ- ized body, and our action as a body speaks for itself. Now, sir, in regard to the provisions of the resolution, it seems to me that the reasons which have been urged for accepting the pro- position of Congress, according to the terms of the act passed by Congress, are good. It seems to me that insurmountable difficulties will arise and multiply in our path, if we at- tempt to step aside from the plan laid down for us, and change the boundaries of the pro- posed State. These difficulties have been stated, and it seems to me they are serious ones, and ought to have weight in the minds of the members of the Convention, as they do have weight in the minds of the people at large. I believe a decided majority of the people of the Territory are in favor of accept- ing the terms of the Enabling Act, with the boundaries as therein defined. I believe it would be unsafe to depart from them for many reasons. We know how strenuously that* Enabling Act was opposed in Congress. We know how strenuously one section of the Union opposes anything like the admission of a free State into the Union. Instances of this are too numerous to need reference to, and it seems to me it does not need argument at this time, in the face of these facts. It is true that precedents have been cited for this course, but gentlemen vnl\ bear in mind that the present times are not like those we have seen. The time has been when such ques- tions could be discussed dispassionately in Congress, but I think that time is not the present. That time does not exist now ; and we have to do with facts as they exist, and as they will exist when we come to apply for admission into the Union. Now, sir, I have never been able to get up any feeling upon the subject of this north and south or east and west line. The arguments are very strong on both sides, and I have but little choice in the matter ; but the question having been settled *t)y Congress, it seems to me it is the act of wisdom to accept of the proposition as it is. The gentleman from Winona [Mr. Wilson] has alluded to the way we are treated here in Saint Paul, and to the political aspect of affairs in case this boundary is adhered to. Now, Mr. President, I have ever been op- posed to carving out States for the success of this or that political party , but I ask gen- tlemen Mho are in favor of such a course, what permanent gain they are to expect from it ? Those who are initiated have seen how rapidly changes take place here in the West. The aspect of things to-day is no sure crite- rion of what the aspect of things vnll be to- morrow. I cannot believe that Minnesota, with her north and south line, will be other than right; but if so, let us struggle on. Besides, I think we should feel an interest in the northern section of the Territory. But I do not think considerations of this nature should influence us in any degree. We should take a practical view of the subject, and judge of it in all its bearings. But I will not take up the time of the Con- vention. In reply to the suggestions which have been made that gentlemen need more time to consider this subject, I have to say that this question has been pretty thoroughly discussed in the last six months, and that there is no need for further consideration. — The question is a very plain one. We should pass upon this question at once, and in my judgment, pass upon it as a whole, though I would by no means wish to injure the feel- ings of any member who wishes further time for consideration. Mr. GALBRAITH. We have very little time in which to discuss this question. Our Southern Minnesota friends, seem, some of them, perhaps all of them, to urge a change in this Enabling act. Now, sir, the wisdom of that policy has not been shown to one in this Convention. What are the reasons urged in support of it? What are the reasons urged by my friend from Winona (Mr. Wil- son) ? Why, that St. Paul is going to con- trol this territory. Well, sir, if I stand here MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES-^Ioxday, Jilt 13. ss alone, and Saint Paul undertakes to drive me j from hence, they wiU walk over nij- dead body before I leave this room. "We do not intend to be brow-beaten by St. Paul. "We are the last men who should cry out: "afiraid " of St. Paul ! " TTe need no protection firom those who rushed in hereto-day, cried out ''I, " move to adjourn," and th^n ran out again. — Did that scare us? Let them come on, we are ready to die in our tracks rather than yield. (Applause.) We, afraid of St. Paul ! "Who is St. Paul? (Laughter j Let them come. Vi'e have no guns, no pistols, no slung shots, but we are ready to meet them, and wiU not be driven fi-om this hall. But suppose you adopt the East and West line, will not St. Paul still be within the lim- its of the proposed State? How can you avoid it? If we had the power to annex it to "NVisconsin, (laughter) we might rid our- selves of %her by that means. But adopt which line you will, St Paul will be with us any how. And, sir, I do not concur in this wholesale condemnation of St. PauL There are good men, noble men here, plenty of them ; men who will protect you at all times and under all circmnstances, and who always have done so. I see some of them even in this halL I can point them out all over town. St. Paul is not a nest of vipers. I do not believe it But to those who complain that St. Paul has always made trouble in the Tenitory, that she is a political eye sore to the Republican party, I have to say that we are not to frame a Constitution for the Territory and for St. Paul as they now are, but we are to firame a Constitution for our children and our chil- dren's children. .:ind what matters it whether the St Paul of to-day is Democratic or Re- publican ? In reference to the propositions before us, I can see no difierence in substance what- ever. They are the same thing in fact. I am in favor of adopting one of them without further delay, and we shall then be ready to proceed with our work. Let the matter of the boundary line stand for weeks and what do we gain by it ? How much infOTmation will you receive. Let the Convention accept this proposition as it comes to us, and then if a majority are in favor of an East and West line, at the end of the Convention, we can send a Memorial to (.^ongress, praying them to change the boundary ; and that will be the end of the whole matter. I think the Convention should adhere to the proposition just as it is at this time, as a precautionary measure, as a measure of safety. I beg the pardon of the Convention for occupying so much of their time. I say it with the utmost respect for the gentleman from Winona, (Mr. Wilson) but I do not think St Paul is quite as bad as he represents it, or at least not quite so dan^rous. Mr. KING. The question hes right here : The gentleman wants to know what objec- tion we have to the Xorth and South line. — Well, sir, as a representative for Southern Minnesota, I will make the solemn predic- tion, that if we go on and frame a Constitution with this North and South line, the people wiQ repudiate the Constitution, and we shall remain out of the Union for a year or two longer. I do not apprehend any danger from this change of boundary. Certainly we shall lose nothing by asking. "When did you ever know a little boy to get less by asking, than would have been given to him without ? We shall lose nothing by asking for this East and West hne. Now, sir, Congress passed this Enabling Act, and how did they pass it ? If we are to believe a statement which has been going the roimds of the papers, they got to log rolling and one of the Senators from Ga.. [Mr. TooMBs] supported this specific boundary as it now stands, for a specific "purpose. Sir, oiur Supreme Court Judges have determined in favor of the nationality of that abomina- tion which we detest, and now by accepting in fiill this Enabling Act, we are subscribing I to an act that will unavoidably send to the I Senate of the United States two supporters ; of that abomination. ' But we must make our choice, and I ask I gentlemen which they will do ? I do not un- 1 derstand Congress in the Enabling Act to ! decide what we must do. It tells us what j we may do, and Congress will not object to an\-thing of this kind which we deem to be j . o , I right. I am willing to take the risk we shall in- j cur. Sir, the delegation fi"om Southern Minne- I sota have been trying to have this question come j up by itself upon its own merits before the I Convention, but they have been fofled thus 2i MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Monday, July 13. far. I hope that wc shall have a fair expres- sion of the opinion of tlic Convention up- on it. Mr. WILSON. I evidently spoke so as not to he understood by the two gentlemen who immediately followed me. I did not wish nor do I now wish, to be understood as de- siring to form a State which wiU be a Re- publican or a Democratic State, or to be at all influenced by the political complexion of those who are to live in it. I desire merely to form such a State as will meet the inter- ests and wishes of those who are to live in it, and especially of my own constituency. As to this thing of being afraid of St. Paul, I see nothing in the remarks of the gentlemen (Mr. Galbbaith) pertinent to any thing I have said. I have alluded to no such fear. If there is any necessity of meeting the enemy, I will go as far as he who goes farthest to maintain our rights. It is not ne- cessary to ai'gue that question, and I do not want to argue it. There are sometimes things which, though we do not fear them, are annoy- ing, and we desire for that reason to avoid them. That is all I have to say on that point. But that is not the only objection to this North and South line, and the reason why I do not go further into a statement of the ben- efits of the East and West line is, that I know the delegates coming here understand the benefits arising from the adoption of that boundary but where is the necessity of set- tling this question now and in this connec- tion ? No gentleman has said that it is re- quired in order to comply with the requisi- tions of the Enabling Act, by settling that question in such a resolution as this, which we all desire should be passed with unanim- ity. The amendment of the gentlemen from Rice County [Mr. Noeth] cuts just as deep as the other, but a little smoother. It is a species of legislative trickery to connect in one bill different projects. You may like one measure very much, and because you do, I make you go for another you do not like, in order ^to get what you do like. Leave us to Ray now only M'hether we will not come in as a State or not, and then afterwards by what boundaries. They arc two distinct proposi- tions, and should be submitted to us sepa- rately. Many members of the Convention now appear for the first time in a legislative bod3^ They are not acquainted with the mode of doing business. Sometimes they are misled. But everj^thing can come up sepa- rately and all will be right. I do not wish to submit to doing something I dislike, because it is yoked with something I like. Separate them and let us have the wishes of the Con- vention distinctly and fairly expressed and that is all I ask. These are my opinions. I have not argued the benefits of the North and South or the East and West line because we all undestand them. Mr. NORTH. In regard to this trickery of forcing two questions at once, I wish to say that the thing has been tried separately. The amendment of the gentleman from Steele County brought the question before the Con- vention in a separate form, and his amend- ment was voted down. I had supposed, therefore, that the Convention had decided they would take them together. Supposing they had come to that conclusion, I thought the wording of my substitute was a httle more direct than the original, and that is the reason I proposed it. It was not done for the pm-pose of concealing any thing ; not for the purpose of trickery ; nor for the purpose of forcing through two things together, which would not pass separately. Mr. WILSON. I did not intend to im- pute trickery to the gentleman who has just taken his seat. I meant to say, and did say, that this method of tacking together bills discordant in their provisions, and passing them together, is a species of legislative trick- ery — that the practice was legislative trick- ery — and the gentleman stated very fairly that he did not consider that the two provis- ions necessarily went together. Mr. COLBURN. It may be thought, from the position I took upon the -amendment of the gentleman from Winona Mr. [Wilson] that I was endeavoring to force action upon this question. My idea was that this Con- vention should first decide this question as to the wish of the people, — not that I desire ac- tion upon it to-day, if more time is desired. There arc gentlemen here who feel that they owe certain duties to their constituents, whose views and feelings should bo repre- sented fairly and fully before the question is taken, Those gentlemen desire more time MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Monday, Jclt 18. 89 for investigation, and I am the last person that would deprire them of that privilege. Speaking for the County which I have the honor in part to represent, I do not believe that the people of Southern Minnesota are going to reject the Constitution which we form, on account of the boundaries which we may establish, whether by an East and "West, or a North and South hne. Fillmore County \frill vote for Ihe Constitution, if it be Republican, regardless of the boundary of the State. Neither do I fear political consid- erations. Give Southern Minnesota her fair representation in proportion to her inhabit- ants, and St. Paul may do her best, politi- cally. I think that the question of pohtical power should not influence us. I am ready to concur in any action gentlemen may de- sire, and give them suitable time to investi- gate this question ; but I shall insist that the question of boundary' should be settled before we proceed to any other business of the Con- vention. The question recurring upon the substitute of Mr. North — Mr. "NViLsox demanded the yeas and nays. The yeas and nays were ordered, and the question being taken there were yeas 41 and nays 15 as follows: J€(M— Messrs. Aldrich, Aver, Balcombe, Baldwin, Bates, Bartholomew, Billings, Bolks, Butler, Cleg- horn, Colburn, Coombs, Dooley, Dickerson, Esch- lie, Foster, Galbraith, Hall, Hayden, Harding, Han- son, Holly, Kemp, Lisle, Lowe, McKune, Messer, Morgan, Murphy, North, Perkins, Putnam, Peck- ham, Russell W. F., Stannard, Secombe, Smith, Vaughn, Walker, Winell, and Watson. Nays — Messrs. Anderson, Coggswell.'Coe, Ce- derstam, Davis, Folsom, Gerrish, Hudson, King, JIantor, McCann, McClure, Robbins, Thompson, •nd Wilson. So the substitute was adopted. Mr. WILSON. I do not like to be troub- lesome, and if things stood in any diflferent shape, I would not oflfer a substitute. The substitute adopted stands instead of the orig- inal resolution, and is stiU open to amend- ment. The reason why I offer a substitute is, that it appears to me that there ought to be a majority of the whole number of dele- gates to this Convention, in favor of this res- olution, which majority evidently cannot be obtained if the two questions are connected together. My amendment is this : ; " Reaolced, By the House of delegates duly '. " elected by the pebple of the Territory of Minne- " sota residing within the limits described by the " act of Congress approved entitled " An act i " to authorise the people of the Territory of Min- i " nesota to form a Constitution and State Govern- " ment, preparatory to their admission into the " Union on an equal footing with the original : " States," assembled at the Capitol of said Terri- I " tory, do hereby determine that it is the wish of ! " the people of the proposed State to be admitted i " into the Union at this time." I I I use the very language of the act, and j nothing else. I Mr.STANNAED. If I sought to defeat I this amendment I would throw myself upon : parliamentary J)ractice, We have had sub- : stitute upon substitute. The gentleman from Winona [Jlr. Wilsox] is very anxious about I this question of St. Paul. The first question to settle is the boundaries of the future State. I live and represent a constituency north of the proposed East and West line, and I could not sit here with satisfaction to my conscience, or credit to myself, and claim that I had a right to participate in the formation of a Con- stitution for a people living in a State formed from Southern Minnesota, I claim that the first question to be decided is that of the boundary-, and if that question is to engage our attention day after day, we might as well adjourn immediately sine die. I do not be- lieve that we would be admitted into the Union with boundaries different from those prescribed in the Enabling Act ; and aU the time and money we spend here to change those boundaries, will be thrown away. I think that those who tiilnk with me, have conceded considerable, and I ask the gentie- man from Winona to concede as much. Mr. HARDING. I wish it to be distinctiy imderstood, that it is my opinion, and has been ever since I saw the Enabling Act, that the best thing we can do is to come into the Union under that act, and to take the boun- daries Congress has proposed. I am aware that there is a feeling in Southern Minnesota adverse to it, but in my neighborhood, every man is of the opinion I have expressed. Mr. COLBURN. I design to vote for the amendment of the gentleman from Winona, so that if we are to have an accession of members to-morrow, they may participate in the question of settling the boundary of th« 26 MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Mo:«dat, Jult 18. proposed State. If those delegates should not come into the Convention to-morrow I shall be ready then to vote upon the question of boundary. Mr. STANNARD. The fourth section pro- vides that after this question is decided, the Marshal of the Territory shall proceed to take a census. Now to show the gentleman that it is impossible to separate those two questions, suppose we leave this question un- decided to-day, what inhabitants shall the Secretary of the Interior order the Marshal of Minnesota to take the census of? Mr. COLBURN. I have said that if we are to have no accession to our numbers to- morrow, I shall be willing to vote upon the question of boundary then. Mr. HAYDEN. It is true these are two separate questions, yet I cannot see the ne- cessity of their separation, or even the con- sistency of a separation. The question was then taken on the amend- ment offered by Mr. Wilson, and it was not agreed to. Mr. GALBRAITH moved a reconsidera- tion of the vote just taken, stating that he did so at the request of the mover of the amendment in order that a vote might be had thereon by yeas and nays. The question was taken and the motion to reconsider prevailed. The question recurring upon the amend- ment, on motion of Mr. GALBRAITH the yeas and nays were ordered; and being taken, there were yeas 16, and nays 38, as follows: Yeas — Messrs. Anderson, Balcombe, Billings, Colburn, Coe, Davis, Dooley, Gerrish, Hudson King, Mantor, McCaun, McClure, Robbius, Thomp- Bon, and Wilson. yays — Messrs. Aldrich, Ayer, Baldwin, Bates. Bartholomew, Belles, Butler, Cederstani, Coombs, Dickerson, Eschlie, Foster, Folsom, Galbraith, Hall, Hayden, Harding, Hanson, Holly, Kemp, Lisle, Lowe, McKune, Messer, Morgan, Murphy, North, Perkins, Putnam, T*eckham, Russell, Stan- nard, Secombe, Smith, Vaughn, Walker, Winell, and Watson. So the amendment was lost. Mr. STANNARD. I caU for the previous question. Mr. MORGAN. Before that is done I de- sire to move to strike out the word "ap- pojved " as we are not able to fill the blank, and the act is suflBciently referred to without those words. The amendment was agreed to. The previous question was then seconded, and the main question ordered to be put ; and the question being taken upon the resolution as amended, it was adopted. Mr. SECOMBE moved to reconsider the vote by which the resolution was adopted. The motion was not agreed to. ORGANIZATION OF THE CONVENTION. Mr. HUDSON. I move that the written request, in response to which this Conven- tion was called to order by Mr. North, be by him presented to the Secretary of the Con- vention, and that the same be entered in its appropriate place upon the journals of this Convention. Mr. STANNARD. lam opposed to that motion. I do not think the written request of any account, and I do not desire to encum- ber the Journal with anything that is not per- fectly pertinent to our proceedings. Any gentleman had the right to call the Conven- tion to order. The motion was agreed to. CNESUS OF the TERRITOKT. Mr. MANTOR offered the following reso- lution ; " Besohed, That the Secretary of this Conven- tion be, and is hereby instructed to notify tho United States Marshal, that the Convention has complied with the Enabling Act, and that he be respectfully requested to take such steps as are provided by law, to comply with said act." Mr. FOSTER. I would suggest that tho resolution be amended by stnking out the words "that this Convention has complied "with the Enabling Act" and inserting in lieu thereof the words "that this Convention " has decided upon the immediate admission "of the proposed State into the Union, ac- " cording to the conditions of the Enabling Act." Mr. STANNARD. I have but one word to say. This resolution calls on the Secre- tary of the Convention to notify the Marshal of the United Stiitcs for the Territory. Now, according to the terms of the Enabling Act, the Marshal of the Territory is to take the census according to the fonnsand regulations prescribed by the Secretary of the Interior, and I will guaranty to every member of the Convention, that if the Marshal of this Ter- ritory is informed of only just what is con- tained in that resolution, he might pocket it. MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Tcesdat, Jcly 14. and cany it for two years without censure. The only proper course is for the President to procure a copy of the resolution attested by the Secretary, and transmit it immediately to the Secretaiy of the Interior. This Con- vention has no control over the Marshal. He acts under the Secretary of the Interior. — For one, I should very much object to having anything of this kind go on the Journal. It would appear to the detriment of the members of this Convention. I think we had better pursue the course I have indicated. It is the only correct one. Mr. FOSTER. I do not know but the gen- tleman is correct. I have just prepared an' amendment to meet his suggestion, that the President procure a copy of the resolution which the Convention has passed, and trans- mit it to the Secretary of the Interior. I think, too, that it will be well for the Secretary of the Convention to notify the Marshal for the Territory, who is to take the census. I move this as a substitute for the resolution : *' Riiohed, That the President of this Conven- tion procure a copy of the resolution alBrming the wishes of the people of the proposed State to be admitted into the Union as a sovereign State, properly attested by the Secretary, and tr. nsaiit the same forthwith to the Secretary of the Inte- rior ; and that the Sec'y of the Convention be re- quested to notify the U. S. Marshal for this district, that this Convention has decided in favor of the immediate admission of the State of Minnesota into the Union, and that he be requested to take such steps as are provided by law to comply with said act." The amendment was adopted, and the res- olution as amended was th^n passed. The Convention then took a recess imtfl to- morrow morning at 9 o'clock. SECOND DAY. TlTESDAT, JCLT 14, 1857. The Convention re-assembled at 9 oclock, ; I Mr. WM. H. MILLS presented his creden- | tials as a delegate from Ohnsted County; ' which were referred to the committee on Cre- dentials. The committee subsequently reported that the credentials were regular and Mr. Mills entitled to a seat. Mr. Mills was thereupon qualified by taking the usual oath of office, and his credentials ordered to be placed on the Journal. STAXDISG COMMITTEES. Mr. COGGSWELL offered a resolution in reference to raising certain standing commit- tees on the different subjects proposed to be embraced in the Constitution ; which was re- ferred to a select committee, consisting of Messrs. Coggswell, Colbitrx, Cleghobx, NoBTH, RoBBixs, and Eschlie. COSTESTED SEAT. Mr. MORGAN presented the petition of Chables B. Sheldox, claiming the right of being admitted to a seat in the Convention as the delegate duly elected from Hennepin Countj- iix, place of R. P. Rcssell; which was referred to s( select committee, consisting of Messrs. Mobgax^ Smith, and Coggswell. BCLES. Mr. WILSON from the select committee on Rules, reported a code of rtiles for the gov- enmient of the Convention ; which after con- sideration and amendment were adopted. Pending the consideration of the report of the committee on Rules, Mr. FOSTER moved that, as the sergeant-at-arms was absent, Wm. H. Shelly be appointed sergeant-at- arms j!>ro tempore. The motion was agreed to, and thereupon Mr. Shelly was duly qualified by taking the oath of office. On motion, the sergeant-at-arms, was di- rected to select such assistants as he might deem necessary to assist him in the discharge of his duties. The PRESIDENT. The chair would take this opportunity to remark that if the dele- gates who are legally entitled to seats in this Convention were all present, and the editors and reporters who have been admitted within the bar were all present, all the seats would be occupied, and as it is expected as a matter of course, that those delegates will at some time take their seats, it is the order of the President that the sergeant-at-arms and his assistants permit no one to enter within the bar of the hall except members or those who have credentials to present in order to become members of the Convention, and the report- ers and editors who have been already admit- ted. It is not the intention of the President in giving this order to debar any one who claims a seat in this Convention, but to admit 28 MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Tuesday, July 14. all such that they may present their creden- tials, but it is the intention to keep from within the bar outsiders who have no right inside of the bar. To do so is a matter of convenience and necessity, from the fact that the room is small and hardly sufBcient to ac- commodate the members who are entitled to seats within the bar. Mr. MANTOR submitted the following res- olution which was considered, and adopted. " Besolved, That two hundred copies of the Eules governing this Convention be printed in pamphlet lorm ibr the use of the members, with the names of the members, their post office ad- dress, town county and council districts, together with the names of tlie standing committees." [The proceedings were here interrupted by the appearance of Mr. C. L. Chase at the door, who, as Secretary of the Territory, demanded the hall for the use of the Consti- tutional Convention. The PRESIDENT repUed that that body was now in session and in possession of the Hall. Mr. CHASE. Then you will not give up the Hall? The PRESIDENT. Certainly not. Mr. Chase then retired.] COMMITTEE ON KEPOBTING. On motion of Mr. NORTH the President appointed a committee of three to employ re- porters to report the debates of the Conven- tion as follows : Messrs. Nobth, Cedebstam, and Watson. Mr. MORGAN, from the Committee on the petition of Chaeles B. Sheldon to be admit- ted as delegate to a soat on this floor, submit- ted a report recommending that the prayer of the petition be granted and Mr. Sheldon be admitted as a delegate. The report was read. Mr. GALBRAITH. I have but a word to say upon this matter. I have little doubt in regard to the facts. I have myself received one of these affidavits signed by one of the judges of election, which was made out by myself, and I believe them every way worthy our confidence. [A communication was here received fix»m Rev. E. D. Neill, Chaplain elect, which was laid on the table.] Mr. NORTH. I desire to know whether this report states that the votes rqected by the judges of election designated whether they were for representative district, or delegate at large ? Mr. MORGAN. It does, and we have given copies of the votes themselves. Mr. FOSTER. I move that the resolution reported by the Committee be adopted. The resolution was read as follows : "Besolved, That Charles B. Sheldon is enti- tled to a seat in this Convention from the nth district, and as such should be admitted upon the proper application being made. Mr. STANNARD. I would inquire if Mr. Russell, who, I understand, received the cer- tificate of election, is present ? I am not in favor of deciding this case without giving him an opportunity of being heard. Mr. GALBRAITH. These affidavits I know, and I believe them, but they are ex- parte affidavits, and are only sufficient to open the contest. I believe that Mr. Sheldon is entitled to a seat in this body. I have no doubt as to the equity and legality of his election, but there is another {)erson I under- stand, claiming a seat here by virtue of a certificate. Now, sir, I am willing, and I think this Convention is willing, that every member having a certificate shall come in here, take his seat, and be treated fairly and honorably. Let him have his seat on fair honorable and equitable terms. No member of this Convention has ever intimated that any man who comes here duly elected, with the sign and seal of the people upon his for- head, shall be rejected. Rather than reject any man who was . fairly and honorably elected, I am satisfied every man here would leave this hall. Whether he be in the major- ity or minority it matters not. We wish no fictitious majority. We have here now, I believe, fifty-seven members with legal cer- tificates, under the sign and seal of the proper election officers, whose seats can only be con- tested by legal and proper means. Other gentlemen who have the same kind of certifi- cates can come and present them, and there is no man here who would reject them. If a certaia set of men professing a certain set of principles, find themselves in tlic majority, let that majority rule, whether it be republican or democratic. Let no fictitious majority be created. Let the people's voice come up MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Tiesday, July 14. 29 here and be heard. "We wish for nothing but what is right, but we ask what is right. Mr. SnELDOS comes here and asks for a seat in thLs Convention. He has no certifi- cate, but he presents evidence that he is a legally elected delegate. I believe that evi- dence, every word of it. But it is exparte evidence, and as such, is entitled to no weight for the present, except to admit him to con- test his seat. I say, therefore, that for the present we ought not to admit Mm to a seat in tliis Convention. There has been, it is said, no investigation upon the part of the gentleman holding the certificate, but he should have the opportunity of being heard here. I do not wish to be factious in this matter, but it seems to me it is the duty of the Convention not to act hastily. Mr. ALDRICH. I wish to state to the Con- vention that Mr. Russell is a friend and neigh- bor of mine, and that he told me on Saturday last, his certificate was made out by the proper authorities, but he had declined to re- ceive it for the reason that he had not received a majority of the votes cast, and was not fairly elected. Mr. Sheldon has presented a certain petition here and has filed certain pa- pers. There is nothing unfair in that, but in view of the circumstances, I think it is due to Mr. RcssELL that he should have an oppor- tunity of establishing his right to a seat here if he wishes so to do. I move, therefore, that the report be recommitted to the committee with instructions to notify Mr. Russell imme- diately that his seat is contested, and report as soon as practicable. Mr. NORTH. I want to say that I do not fully understand the course which it is pro- posed to pursue here. I am as far from wishing to hasten a measure of this kind as any gentleman present, but I look upon the matter in this hght : We are not supposed to know what is going on outside of this hall. We are not supposed to know that any gen- tleman has, or claims to -have, a certificate of election to this body, until he comes and pre- sents it. How is this Convention to know that Mr. Russell has any claims to a seat here imtil he comes and presents them ? Common fame, common report says that he has, and I have no doubt that if we go into an investi- gation of the matter, we shall find that Mr. RcssELL was a candidate, and was offered a certificate of election ; but have we any offi- cial information upon which we can properly base such action ? If so, are there not other cases here which demand like action ? I say again, if Mr. Russell does not ask a hearing before this Convention ; if he does not come here and present his certificate or claim a seat here ; is it incumbent on this Convention to run after him ? I know Mr. Rusbell well ; I believe him to be a highly honorable man, and I have no doubt that imder the circum- stances, he does not claim a seat as a mem- ber of the Convention. As I understand it, there is no question but that Mr. Sqeldox had, strictly, legally and technically, a major- ity of the votes cast. That evidence is be- fore us. We have heard that Mr. Russell does not claim a seat here ; that he declines ; to receive a certificate ; and I ask then if it I is necessary, on the part of the Conven tion, i to consult Mr. Russell on the subject ? I Mr. HAYDEX. I think the testimony be- fore us is sufficient to warrant the action which it is proposed to take. The fact that Mr. Sheldon has no certificate is evidence in itself that some other person has. And as the evidence before us is purely exparte, I think it much the best and most judicious course to refer the report back as has been proposed. Mr. FOSTER. WhUe I have no doubt that Mr. Sheldon, the petitioner, in this case, is entitled to a seat here — while I have no doubt that he has received too, a majority of the votes cast, and that those votes them- selves stated on their face whether they were for Council or Representative Delegate, as is certified to by the Judges of Election, and that the failure so to specify in the returns was purely a clerical error, yet, as has been said, the very fact that he comes here without a certificate is of itself evidence that some one else has such certificate. Now, sir, while we might go on, and perhaps it would be just and right to do so, and on the information we have that Mr. Sheldon is legally and fairly entitled to his seat, close up the case at once and give it to him without further delay ; yet t prefer to err in the opposite direction. I prefer to give Mr. Russell the fairest possi- ble chance, so that he could not say we took advantage of his absence to prejudge his case. I hope therefore, the motion of the gentleman from Hennepin [Mr. Aldbich] will prevail 30 MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES -Tuesjay, July 1*. We are here, so lo speak, in a peculiar sit- uation. Composing as we do, a large major- ity of the delegates elected in Mmnesota to this Constitutional Convention ; yet we know that a minority portion of those also elected at the same time to this body, have seen fit not to come here, or if they did come they went out as suddenly as they came in. They disappeared like a meteor shot across the sky of as little substance, shedding as little light on their erratic path. Those who hear me are well aware of the difficuties which from the start encumbered the preliminary organization of this Conven- tion. . The Enabling Act was entirely silent as to the Tiour when the Convention should meet, and the Legislature having also neg- lected to name the hour, we were at a loss what to do. Legally, the moment Sunday went out and Monday came in, the Conven- tion, or even a minority of its members, could meet at the Capitol, and make a preliminary organization. From the threats in the demo- cratic presses prior to our meeting here, from the bravado of democratic leaders since the arrival of most of the members, the Republi- can portion of this body had good reason to believe that there were desperate men enough amongst the democratic minority, to meet here at midnight, to organize here at midnight, and to adjourn from time to time until they obtained a quorum, and to claim, on account of such midnight organization, because it was the first organization on the appointed day for meeting, a precedence over any other or- ganization that might be afterwards set up in broad day -light by the Republican majority ; and though I do not say that such a course would primarily be participated in by all of the members of that party, yet I know enough of those timid souls who might not, to induce me to believe that after the deed was com- mitted, they would " let it slide," and profit by the wrong which their bolder but less hon- orable colleagues had perpetrated. They would console themselves with the argument, that the thing was done, could not now be helped, and it was best to " acquiesce " in the proceeding, much as they disliked it ! Thus warned of the intentions, of the peculiar pro- clivities of their Democratic brethren, the Republican mernbers met together in caucus on Saturday evening, July lUh, to consult on the best means of overcoming the difficulty in regard to the uncertainty about the hour for the meeting of the Convention. They de- termined, in the first place, that they, the ma- jority would not attempt to organize until af- ter broad day-light on Monday morning, the 13th, being the day appointed bj' the Enabling Act. They next determined, that they would take precautions to prevent the Democratic minority from attempting to organize before that time, or during the darkness of early Monday morning, without the knowledge of the Republican members; and be read}'', in case they did so attempt, to frustrate the scheme. As a means of precaution, they determined to meet in caucus in the Council chamber oi the Capitol, at 12. o'clock, midnight, between Sunday and Monday morning; and there watch for and pray over our Democratic brethren. But for any unexpected contingen- cy, such, among other things, as the Demo- crats evincing a willingness in some precise and reliable form, to pledge themselves not to meet until a specified hour, an Executive commit- tee was appointed by the Republican caucus with discretionary powers ; and the Republi- can caucus adjourned to meet in the Council chamber at 12 o'clock, a. m., on Monday morn- ing, as I have before stated. Nothing oc- curred until Sunday evening, when one of the Executive committee being at the FuUer House where others of that committee board- ed, accidentally met there Ex-Governor Gor- man, and had a talk with him about the pos- sibility of coming to an understanding with the Democratic members as to an hour of meeting. Governor Gorman said the Demo- cratic members were just about going into- caucus in No. 15, and he would communicate with them on the subject. He did so, or ap- peared to do so, passing several times back- wards and forwards between a portion of the Republican committee hastily gathered, (some from their beds,) and the Democratic caucus in No. 15 up stairs. The result of his peri- grinations was, that the hour of meeting should be at 12 o'clock at noon, on Monday; and that a paper should be drawn up wliich the Republican committee should sign, on the one hand, and the members of the Democratic caucus, on tlie other, mutually pledging their sacred honors to organize at that hour and not before. By request, I drew up such a MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Tcesdat, Jclt 14. 81 paper, -which Governor Gokman' took up into their caucus, to see if it was all right in form. He brought it down stairs, .«yiid it would do, and requested us to sign it fii*st. All of the Execit ve committee present did so; and he took it up with him into their caucus ; and, gen- tleman, that is the last we ever saw of it ! — We waited a long time to see it come down with the signatures of the Democrats upon it; but we waited in vain. They knew a trick worth two of that. When they did finally adjourn their Sunday caucus, about 11 o'clock on Sunday night, and came down stairs in a body, Governor Gokmax handed the Repub- licans a resolution signed by the oflBcers of the caucus, in which, in return for our posi- tive pledge to meet at 12 o'clock the next day, they said they would "meet at the vsiial hour for the assembling of parhamentary bodies m the United States.'' Indignant at this unfair evasion, the Republican committee at once, on the spot, denounced this as a subterfuge ; as not the understanding, and declared that they would not be bound by it. They demanded their written pledge back again ; and it icas refused! Now, what were the Republicans to do imder these circumstances? To be spared the necessity of a long night vigil, in the Capitol, was the earnest desire of us all ; but this dishonorable evasion, made it still more evident that the only course for us to pursue, was that of " eternal vigilance." It was plain that the Democrats were playing last and loose with us — that they were in for all the chances. That having tricked us into pledging a certain hour for meeting they kept themselves ready to take advantage of any circumstances that might arise by the loose and doubtless well considered phrase of the *' vsual hour ! " Now, sir, that " usual hotu-" means anything, everything, or nothing, just as you happen to want. It may mean 9 o'clock, which is the hour our rules fix for the daily sessions of this Convention ; or it may mean 10 o'clock, the usual hour for the meeting of the Territorial Legi.'^lature ; or it may mean 12 o'clock, the usual hour at which Congress assembles. Well sir. the Democrats having thus adopted a sliding scale, while the Republicans had offered to agree to meet at precisely 12 o'clock, M., on Monday, the latter had but one re- source; for, sir, sent here by an intelligpnt. earnest and fearless constituency, the Repub- lican Del^ates were not the men to be coaxed, or driven, or humbugged, firom their position. It was their intention, as it was their instruc- tions from their people, to stand by their rights, to stand by them in a legal manner, but to stand by them with all the means which God and nature, and the constitution of their country had given them. I repeat, sir, under the circumstances we had but one course to pursue, and that we took. Pursuant to our adjounmient on Sat- urday evening, we met in caucus in the Coun- cil Chamber of this Capitol as soon as possi- ble afler the clock had struck twelve on Sun- day night ; and we continued there all night, not to do anj-thing, although we had a majori- ty of aU the members elected present ; but to prevent any imdue advantage being taken of us by the other side. Let no man say we were not justified in apprehending that the Democratic delegates would attempt to take such advantage. Why, then, it may be asked, did they not come forward and meet our proposition for twelve o'clock on Monday noon as the hour for organization, in a manly, straight-forward way ? Why the contempti- ble evasion of the " usual hour ?" But in addition to these signs of a disposition to take advantage, it is a matter of history that the same party in the State of Ohio, under the lead of the present Democratic Governor of this Territory, once met in legislative session in Coliunbus, at midnight of the day fixed for the meeting of the Legislature, and kept pos- session of the legislative hall day and night for two or three weeks, and aU this to obtain political power and nullify an apportionment bin passed by a previous Legislatxire — and, sir, they succeeded. How did we know that that was not the "usual hour" meant by them — for this precedent showed it was an " usual hour" with the Democracy of Ohio, and as the party in this Territory had the same oflBcial leader, could we suppose Ohio mid- ni^t fashions would not be imposed on us here in Minnesota ? Yes, sir, I repeat, we were justified in mistrusting them, and by ap- prehending in time their designs, fiiistrate and prevent them. Well, sir, the Republican members contin- ued in the Coimcil Chamber until after day- light, — in fact until afler the doors of the 82 MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Tuesday, Jclt 14. Convention Hall were unlocked by the work- men, who, who under the employ of this Democratic Admistration, were arranging and furnishing it for the reception of the Delegates to the Constitutional Convention. It was not until the doors were thus unlocked, that a single member of an}^ party took a seat in this Hall. And how, sir, did the Republican mem- bers enter it then ? Why, sir, they dropped in singly, after going for their breakfast and returning; entered it in broad day -light, not organized, not in a body, not rushing in lilce a mob, but calmly, quietly, and without noise or confusion. They selected their seats, and some of the Democratic members came in and selected their seats also ; and all was going on peaceably and quietly. Between 9 and 10 o'clock, the Democratic delegates met in cau- cus in the office of the Secretary of State down staus in this Capitol. Whether the more respectable amongst them were ashamed of the evasion of their caucus the evening be- fore — or whether to blind the Republicans to their designs and prevent them from proceed- ing to organize the Convention, before they were ready to make the grand rush that they subsequently did, this caucus adopted and communicated to the Republican members the follo^^^ng resolution. " July 13, IS"?- . " Regolved, That the Democratic members of the Constitutional Convention in caucus, do hereby confirm the position of the Democratic members last evening, and will concur in the proposition to meet at 12 o'clock, M. of this day, the usual hour for the assemblage of parliamentary bodies in the United States. M. SHERBURNE, Chairman. C. L. Chase, Secretary." SiE : It will be observed, that this resolu- tion alludes to and establishes the fact, at- tempted to be disputed, that the " Democratic, members" were in caucus on the Sunday even- ing previous ; and it tries to relieve them from the evasive " position" they had taken by interpreting the usual hour to mean 12 o'clock ! and at this hour they now pledged them.selves to meet. I want to call attention to another feet, which still more strongly shows that there vias a " caucus of the Democratic members" the previous Sunday evening. This is, that the caucus which adopted the resolution just read, appears to have been only the adjourned caucus from the night before ; for the game persons were President and Secretary of both, as will be seen by this copy of their commu- nication to the Republican members at the Fuller House on Sunday evening, when they played the trick about the " usual hour." It is, sir, as follows : " Gextlemex: — The Democratic members of the Constitutional Convention now present will be governed as to time and place of meeting by the usual rules governing the assemblage of parlia- mentary bodies in the United States. M. SHERBURNE. (?. L. Chase, W. A. Gorman. To Messrs. Balcombe and others." What followed, sir, the communication of the resolution by them on Monday morning ? The first thing- we witnessed, .sir, was that a person, acting under Democratic orders, came into this Hall with a small hand ladder, mounted up to the Hall Clock facing your desk, sir, and went through all the motions of taking it apart, regulating it, and then setting it agoing according to their own time. Not a Republican hand, sir, touched that clock; and we sat here, foohshly trusting in the good faith of our opponents, that at 12 o'clock M. by the time piece regulated by themselves, they would meet with us here and proceed in a proper manner to organize the Constitutional Convention. How vilely they broke their faith — how dishonestly they violated their hon- or — you all know. All will bear me witness, that at 17 minutes lefore the time fixed by themselves, — 17 minutes before, by the Hall Clock — they rushed in here in a body — like a mob — some 38 or 40 of them — with a man at the head of the name of Chase, who claimed to unite in his one person, the various functions of Secretary of the Territory and Acting Governor, and making some pretence also to a seat in the Convention. He, Chase, by evident pre-arrangement, sprang unex- pectedly into the Speaker's desk, and com- menced calling the Convention to order. Say- ing " As Secretary of tTie Territory of Minne- sota, I call" — But before he could get his words out even this far , Mr. J. W. North, a duly elected and certified delegate, who had previously been requested in writing by a ma- jority of all the members elect to the Conven- tion, to call the body to order, was by his side, had called the Convention to order, had nom- inated Thomas J. Galbbaith as temporary MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Tuesday, Jilt 14. 3S Chairman, and had put the motion before Mr. Chase could call his mob to order. As soon as he had done so, Willis A. Gorman at once made a motion to adjourn. The motion was put by Mr. Chase, and declared by him carried. And thus a body, as they called themselves, without being organized, without a Secretary or record of proceedings, adjourned and rushed out of the room as they had rushed in. We, a majority of the Convention remained, and have pro- ceeded ever since upon our course, and are ready at all times to receive members who come with credentials, no matter to what party they belong, and give them seats in this body. We have endeavored to act, and have acted fairly throughout ; and as I said before, we have nothing to reproach ourselves with, and nothing to take back. Mr. ALDRICH. I wish to state for the information of the gentleman from Rice county, and others, that there is evidence here that a certiJBcate of election is made out for Mr. RussELU I have seen it myself, and I am opposed to acting decidedly in this case at this time, for the reason that we have no means of knowing but that Mr. Rcssell may make his appearance here and ask to take his seat. We have no means of knowing but that he may be absent on account of sickness. I will also state that there is a neighbor of Mr. Russell now here, who will take to him any communication from this Convention this afternoon. I not only want the Convention to do no wrong, but to avoid even the appear- ance of wrong. The question was then tak^i, and the mo- tion was agreed to. So the report was referred back to the committee. Mr. NORTH. I suppose I am not strictly in order in speaking when there is no ques- tion before the Convention, and I will not do so if any gentleman has objection. The PRESIDENT. The genUeman will proceed, as no objection is made. ^ Mr. NORTH. There have been a few remarks made in Convention which I think quite likely to excite some feeling upon the part of people outside of the Convention, and perhaps on the part of some within the Convention. Such remarks, it seems to me, are not desirable, are injudicious and inexpe- 5 dient. We are all aware of the circvunstan- ces vmder which we meet ; that there is feeling in others as well as in ourselves. "VVhen men view the same thing from different points of observation, it is very common for them to perceive the same points in different lights ; to judge of it differently, and at the same time honestly. The human mind is capable, I had almost said of any absurdity, and what may seem to us absurd, may seem to others not so absurd, and it becomes us, in exciting times, to be as forbearing in our judgment, and in our language as possible. I regret to have heard any remarks in this Convention derogatory to the motives, feelings, or views of those outside of the Convention, or of those who differ with us in regard to the or- ganization of the Convention. Though they may choose to take a course differing from ours, I beUeve every man here is firm and decided in the opinion that our course is the proper one, the regular one, and the right one. Let us be satisfied with that and go straight forward in the discharge of our duties, with- out turning round to charge wrong upon those who differ with us. I hope we shall be so inclined to do, and I believe that such is the feeling of the Convention generally ; and our good judgment will teach us the propriety of acting upon that feeling. A word in regard to St. Paul : Some re- marks have been di'opped in reference to her which I regretted to hear. We aU have our views in regard to different places in our Ter- ritory. We may have our prejudices, but we have assembled in this Convention for a more dignified purpose than that of passing enco- miums or censure upon the people of any place. St. Paul like other places, has its good and its bad men. The good are not respon- sible for the bad, and some whom we may call bad, may not be as bad as we imagine. It becomes us to be forbearing in our censures of any, and as charitable as we can be to all. Things have transpired in St. Paul wliich de- serve encomium, and if she were a theme of discussion in this Convention, much might be said of which she might be proud. But St Paul is not on trial, and it does not become us to censure her. There are noble men in tliis city, as I have had occasion to know within the last six years, and I feel pained when I hear them censured. I know the remarks to M MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Wedmesday, Jult 15. which I allude were not intended to fall upon the good men of this city, but upon another class, whose deeds even the people of St. Paul regard with disapprobation. But such remarks cause unpleasant feelings, and we should be- ware how we digress into any remarks of that nature. We should conduct ourselves with the proprieties of the place and the object for which we are assembled. , I hope that nothing I have said will be con- strued into a censure of any remarks which have been made. My remarks are not so in- tended, but simply as a suggestion for the future. Mr. ALDRICH. With the consent of the Convention I wish to say that I perfectly agree with the remarks of the gentleman who has just taken Ms seat. They are my senti- ments, but better expressed than I should have expressed them. I regretted to hear some remarks which have been made here. — My views of our proper course are that we should go straight forward, calmly, dignifiedly, and firmly, as though nothing had happened ; that we should treat every man with cour- tesy, do our duties as we have sworn to per- form them, drawing in no side issues, but attending strictly to the business for which we were sent here. Mr. WILSON. I regret that this discus- sion has commenced at this time, as every in- dividual must see that the remarks were prob- ably intended as a censure, or something equivalent, upon something said by myself I have made no remarks which I should take back under any circumstances after the most mature thought. As to the people of St. Paul, I have nothing to say against them indi- vidually. As far as I know, they are like other people, good and bad. The remarks I made were applicable to certain influences which they, as an aggregate body, would have on our Territory under a certain divis- ion. In a place where we are not at liberty to discuss this matter, I think it wrong to bring it up, but I am ready to sustain my position in any proper place, and many peo- ple of St. Paul say amen. Mr. HUDSON. I wish merely to say that I endorse what has been said by Messrs. NoBTH and Aldbich. I believe it is always better to pour oil upon the troubled wa- l&rn ; to say notliing against any man or a ny place, but to attend strictly to our busi- ness, build up our o\vn cause and the inter- ests of our country. Mr. GALBRAITH. Had we not better proceed to business. What, I would ask, are gentlemen going to pour oil upon ? If what has been said by me, fits any one, let him put it on. I don't know as I have said anything objectionable. If I have said anything harsh to the members of this Convention, of course, I am sorry for it. If I have said anything offensive to people outside, let them come and fcilk to me about it. Mr. NORTH. I hope to have my last remark taken in its full force and meaning. I did not intend a single remark I made, as a censure, or as fault finding, but simply as a suggestion to be thought of in the future. CALL OF THE HOUSE. Mr. GALBRAITH, (at one o'clock) moved that there be a call of the House. The motion was agreed to ; a call of the House was had, the absentees noted, and the sergeant-at-arms directed to close the doors and bring in the absentees. The doors were closed until 4 o'clock, p. m., when the doors being opened, on motion all further proceedings in the call were dispensed with. The Convention then took a recess imtil to- morrow at 10 o'clock, A. M. THIRD DAY. Wednesday, July 15, 1857. The Convention reassembled at 9 o'clock, A. M. and a quorum being present, the jour- nals of Monday and Tuesday were read, cor- aected and approved. MESSENGER TO THE CONVENTION. The PRESIDENT laid before the Conven- tion a communication from B. h. Sellers, resigning the office of Messenger to the Con- vention. The resignation was accepted. Mr. WILSON moved that W, H. Shelley, the present Sergcant-at-Arms, pro temjwre, be elected to supply the vacancy. Mr. COGGSWELL. I move to amend the motion so as to provide for the election of two Messengers. MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Wedne-^day, July 15. 85 Mr. FOSTER. I would suggest that it would be better not to exceed the usual and customary officers of the legislative bodies of this Territory, which are a Sergeant-at-Arms, Messenger, Door-keeper and Fireman. The object of the gentlemen can be as well accom- plished by the election of a Door-keeper. That was omitted yesterday. The precedent of legislative bodies will be looked to, to as- certain if our officers are necessary. Mr. NORTH. I do not see the necessity of having two Messengers. We should be as economical as possible at the commencement of our organization. Mr. COGGSWELL. I do not undertake to say what has been customary in this Ter- ritory in regard to the election of Messengers, but if I imderstand the customs of Conven- tions of this character in otlier States, it has been to have two Messengers, to say the least. My recollection is that they had two in the Wisconsin, three in the Michigan, and I think seven or eight in the New Hampshire Conven- tion. My judgment is that the time is not far distant when we shall want the services of at least two Messengers. Our business will, much of it, be transacted by Committees, and there will be considerable ninning from this hall to the Committee rooms and back ; and it seems to me we should have two of these officers, one upon each side of the Hall so that they may be at hand for the piurpose, and also for carrying to the Clerk's desk such resolu- tions and papers as may be presented by the members. As to the matter of economy, I am as much in favor of it as any other man, but we should not carry our economy to the extent of depriving ourselves of services which we absolutely need. Mr. DAVIS. I move to amend by striking out the name of Mr. Shelly, so that the mo- tion shall simply provide that we now proceed to the election of a Messenger. Mr. WILSON. In making my motion, j did not say anything about the gentleman whose name I proposed, nor shall I do so now. I content mj^self by referring the Con- vention to the gentleman as our present Ser- geant-at-Arms, 'pro tempore. He has done us good service thus far, and is just the man we want, and I trust we shall not spend time in trying to choose a better man. Mr. COGGSWELL. I have no objection to Mr. Shelley. So far as I know anything about the manner in which he has discharged his duties, he has my commendation; but there are otlier individuals equally worthy and "deserving, whose names should be proposed to the Convention. From such names we can select one. I shall be satisfied with any of ' them. Mr. DAVIS. To Mr. Shelley I have no objection ; on the contrary, from what I have seen of liim, I like him both as a man and a Republican. I think we can place the fullest reliance upon him, but I think it nothing but justice and fareness to allow the Convention to propose other names, if they wish. There are other individuals, as my friend Coggswell remarked, equally as competent, and equally as good Republicans, whose names I should like to see brought before the Convention. The amendment was agreed to. The original resolution was adopted, and W. H. Shelly was declared duly elected Messenger to the Convention. REPORT OF COMJOTTEE OS STANDING COSOnTTES. Mr. COLBURN from the select committee to which was referred the subject of desig- nating the standing committees of this body, made the following report : "The select committee to whom wa^ referred the resolution of Mr. Cogswell, have attended to that duty and would recommend that standing committees be appointed to whom shall be referred all matters therein contained as follows : 1st. A committee of five — On, tJu Preamble and Bill of Bights. 2d. A committee of seven — On the Legislative Department. 3d. A committee of three — On the Executive Department. 4th. A committee of five — On State Officer$ other than Executive. oth. A committee of seven — On the Judiciary Department. 6th. A committee of five — On the Organization and Government of Cities and Villages. 7th. A committee of five — On County and Town - ship Organisations and Officers. 8th. A committee of five — On the Elective Fran- chise. 9th. A committee of five — On Finances, Taxa- tion, and Public Debt. loth. A committee of five — On Edueatumal Institutions and Interests. 11th. A committee of seven — On Banks and Corporations otTier than Municipal. 12th. A committee of three — On the Militia^ 36 MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Wednesday, July 15. 13th. A committee of five — On Exemptions of Seal and Personal Estate, and the Rights of Mar- ried Women. 14th. A committee of five — On the Punishment of Crimes. 15th. A committee of five — On the Amendm,ent and Eevision of the Constitution. 16th. A committee of five — On Internal Im- provements. 17th. A committee of three — On Impeachment and Eemavalfrom Office. 18th. A committee of five — On Public Property and Expenditures. 19th. A committee of five — On Salaries. 20th. A committee of five — On Miscellaneous Business. 21st. A committee of five — On Schedule. 22d. A committee of five — On the Arrange- ment and Phraseology of the Constitution." The report of the committee was accepted, and the committee discharged. The question being on the adoption of the report of the committee. Mr. MORGAN called for a separate vote on each committee, and the question being put, the recommendation as to committees Nos. 1, 8, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21 and 22 was agreed to without debate. On the reading of the 2d committee — a committee of seven on the Legislative Depart- ment. Mr. QAYDEN said — There are so many- committees, it seems to me that five members are enough on any one committee. I there- fore move to amend by striking out "7" and inserting " 5." Mr. COLBURN. That matter was con- sidered by the select committee. This is an important committee, as are also the com- mittees on the Judiciary and on the Banking Department, and we thought it desirable on those committees to have as much counsel as we could. But if seven cannot attend, five would be a quonmi to do business. Mr. HAYDEN. My idea was, that as the committees are so numerous it would not be convenient to have more than five members upon a committee, as many of the commit- tees would probably be in session at the same time. A committee consisting of five mem- bers, could act if only three were present, and as a general thing throe can expedite business more rapidly than a larger number. In my opinion, five is a sufficient number on those committees which should be strong, and three on the others. Mr. PERKINS. That is an important com- mittee and it is important to bring to bear upon it all the wisdom possible to apply to it. This committee especially, and the one on the Judiciary, should consist of seven mem- bers, and their object should be not so much to expedite and get through business, as to deliberate calmly and seriously upon the sub- jects brought before them. The amendment was not agreed to, and the recommendation of the select committee was adopted. The report as to the 13th committee was read — a committee of five on Exemption of Real and Personal Estate, and the Rights of Married Women. Mr. MORGAN said : I move to strike out that committee. The subjects contemplated by that committee have heretofore been sub- jects of legislation, and not considered proper subjects to incorporate into a constitution. They are matters which constantly change with public opinion. What might be deemed a sufficient exemption of real estate at this time, might not be at another time. As to the rights of married women, I have never known them introduced into any Con- stitution. They are strictly subjects of legis- lation. Mr. FOSTER. Although they are matters of legislation, rather than of constitutional provisions, yet I think a committee upon that subject should be appointed. No doubt the subject will be mooted and proposi- tion made in reference thereto. At all events, we should have a committee to which they could be referred, and then it lies in their judgment whether to report them back or not. Let them put the matter in shape, if the Convention is to act upon it. Mr. MORGAN. My principal object is not to lessen the number of committees. It is evident that some members must be placed upon two or three committees. The motion was not agreed to. The recommendation of the special com- mittee wa.s then adopted. The question was then taken on the adop- tion of the report of the committee as a whole, and it was decided in the affinnative. MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— AVednesdat, Jlly 15. 37 COMMITTEE OX BOCXDABY CF STATE, &C. Mr. SECOMBE moved that an additional standing committee of five on the name and boundaries of the State be appointed. Mr. COLBURN. The select committee had that subject under consideration, but came to the conclusion that the question was sub- stantially settled by the vote of the Convention on Monday last. If we have accepted the Enabling Act, we have also accepted the boundaries specified therein. If that vote accepted the Enabling Act, as most believe it did, and as the committee think, it obviates the necessity of such a committee as this. Mr. SECOMBE. I agree with the Chair- man of the committee who reported the list of committees, as to the result of the resolu- tion passed the other day, but that does not obviate the necessity of having this commit- tee appointed to draft an article to be inserted in the Constitution, so that the Constitution itself shall contain the name and designate the boundaries of the State. It is not my intention or desire to have any change made in the name and boundaries as contained in the Enabling Act. It should be apparent to any one taking up our Constitution, what our name and boundaries are. It has been cus- tomary in similar Conventions, to have such a committee. Mr. GALBRAITH. That matter having been substantially settled, as admitted by the gentleman firom St. Anthony, it properly comes imder the supervision of the commit- tee on Arrangement and Phraseolog}', who in the course of their duties will arrange and place it in the Constitution. Mr. HUDSON. I think the gentleman who made the motion has a correct idea of the matter. The committee on Arrangements and Phraseology have nothing to arrange but what is sent to them. I admit that we have settled the matter, but who knows the fact except members of the Convention. The Constitution should itself give the name and boundaries of the State. Mr. COGGSWELL. I shall vote for the resolution for the reason that I do not believe that the question of boundary is settled. As one member of the Select Committee, I am not aware that any thing was said in regard to the formation of a Committee of this kind. Had there been, T should have been in favor of it. In the Wisconsin Constitutional Con- vention they had a committee of this charac- ter. That Convention was held under an Enabling Act not substantially diflTering from ours. For the reason that I do not consider this question settled, and that it must neces- saiily come up hereafter, I am in favor of this committee. I know that some members here, living in certain localities, feel inclined for some reason to express themselves in favor of the permanent settlement of this question. For my part the idea that it is permanently settled by the adoption of the resolution the other day, seems to me ridiculous. I shall vote in favor of the committee. Mr. FOSTER. The subject will come up, and there is force in the remark of the gen- tleman from Goodhue [Mr. Hudson] that the committee on Arrangement and Phraseology will hardly have the subject before them unless it comes in a different shape from that in which it now is. As one coming from a locality which believes that the action taken the other day was correct, I am willing to trust the committee and the Convention on that subject. Mr. NORTH. I am perfectly willing that any amount of investigation and discussion if necessary, should be had upon the question of the boundary, but it seems to me that we have settled the question once, after consider- able discussion and deliberation. It seemel decidedly agreed upon that we should accept the proposition of Congress in accordance with the Enabling Act, which settles the boun- dary question definitely. It strikes me that to appoint a committee on boundaries now, is inconsistent. I have very little idea that after the most lengthy discussion and most mature deliberation we shall change the position of that matter for I believe that a majority of the people of the Territory wish it to remain as it is. Such is the sense of the Convention dehberately expressed. But the question ought to be settled at once if it is not already settled, and if necessary, settled by a vote upon this proposition. Mr. SECOMBE. I agree that we have definitely settled the name and boundaries of the State, but we did it for a particular purpose, and in compliance with a specific portion of the Enabling Act, which was a prerequisite to our going on to transact busi- 38 MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Wednesday, Jixv 15. ness. That action was preliminan', and which we were bound to take before we could proceed to form a Constitution. Hav- ing taken that action, I agree with the gentle- man as to the result of it, but at the same time I insist that it is desirable and necessary that there should be a committee to prepare an article to be inserted in the Constitution setting forth the name and boundaries. The Convention of Wisconsin, acting under an Enabling Act similar to ours in every material respect, had such a committee, which pre- pared for the Constitution a distinct article setting forth the name and boundaries, as they were proposed by the Enabling Act. — Who is to do the work of preparing such an article? It has been suggested that the committee on Arrangement and Phraseology should do it. They have not the i)ower to originate matter, but only to insert into the Constitution the result of our action here. — The language of the resolution adopted the other day is to this eflFect : " Resolved, that " it is the wish of the people of Minnesota " to come into the Union as a State." That would make a poor appearance in the Consti- tution, and it seems reasonable that we should have a committee for the purpose which I have stated, and then when any member pro- poses, or any committee reports a different boundary from that which I tliink we have adopted in fact, there will be time, ample time for discussing it, and it will do no harm. Mr. DAVIS. I do not believe that the question of boundary was definitely settled by the resolution passed on Monday. Only the question of our desire to come into the Union as a State, was settled. I look upon this matter merely as a proposition of Con- gress to the Territory of Minnesota. A mere proposition saying " if you will do so and so, ' we will do so and so." It does not follow as a matter of course that we must accept all the other propositions. It does not follow that we must accept the whole or none. We may wish to accept to a certain extent, but desire to differ from those propositions in other respects which are not at all essential to our acting under the act. They are bound if we accept the propositions entire; they are bound only in good faith however. Though we do adopt a different line. Con- gress I think will not dare to refuse our admission. I think if this whole matter were thoroughly understood by the people of the whole State, they would desire a different boundary. Therefore I am in favor of this committee. I shall vote for it. Mr. WILSON. I do not think this the time to argue this question, nor do I think it necessary. This committee is necessary whether the boundary be or be not settled. By the rule which we have adopted each arti- cle as it is adopted, is referred to the commit- the on Arrangement of Phraseology. That was the object for which the committee was appointed, and it has no jurisdiction beyond what is referred to it by the Convention. We must have a committee upon the name and boundaries of the State. The question will be discussed just as much whether we have a committee or not. I think the object will be attained more directly by the appointment of such a committee. Mr. MANTOli. I find by looking at the act enabling the State of Wisconsin to form a State Constitution, that it is very similar to the one under which we are acting. I find in the reports of that Convention that there was a committee similar to the one that is now proposed to be appointed. That Com- mittee took the subject of boundaries into consideration, and reported an article in the shape of an ordinance accepting the proposed boundaries as laid down in the enabling act of Congress. I see no reason why we should not adopt the resolution. I do not know as I have made up my mind as to the actual boundaries of the incoming State. I do not know that when we are act- ing under an enabling act of Congress saying we may come in as a State within certain pro- posed hmits, we may not run a line within those boundaries, but that we cannot step beyond those boundaries is indisputable. We certainly should have something in the Constitution which will show to the people what those boundaries are, without referring them back to the enabling act. For this rea- son I shall give my support to the resolution. The boundaries should be laid out and the land-marks understood, so that succeeding generations may know what our action is, without having to go back to the enabling act. That they may not have. MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Wednesday, July 15. 39 Mr. COLBUEN. The only object I had was to prevent occupying our time unneces- sarily by discussion, but as discussion has got to come, I hope the motion will prevail. Mr. BATES. - I consider tliat the bounda- ries were definitely settled the other day, and I cannot see that there is any question in re- gard to them. Mr. COGGSWELL. If I actually beUeved that our action in the adoption of the resolu- tion on Monday was a final settlement of the boundary question, I certainly would go against the resolution of the gentleman from St. Anthony. But I do not believe it. If I understand the motion, which is tb appoint a committee upon the name and boundaries of the proposed State, it would suit my idea better if it were worded so as to read something like this — " that there should be a standing com- "mittee on the boimdaries of the proposed "State," for the reason that I understand that Enabling Act does lay down, establish and mention the name of the proposed State. I understand that we have no choice so far as the name is concerned. The first section of the Enabling Act reads thus — "that the inhabi- "tants of that portion of the Territory of Min- ''nesota which is embraced within the following "limits," naming them, shall have the power to do certain things. What are those thuigs? That they shall have the power to form for themselves a constitution and state govern- ment by the name of the State of Minnesota, and to come into the Union on an equal foot- ing with the original States. So that as to the name we have no power to make any alteration. But that section says nothing about the permanent establishment of boundaries. It onl^ gives the inhabitants who reside within certain limits the right to select certain indi- viduals who shall meet here for the perform- ance of certain duties. The resolution of Monday expressed nothing more than the wish of the people to be organized as a State — not a State with certain boundaries — not a State which should commence at a certain point, and run around m a certain manner, and come back to the point of starting. Now for the purjwse of having a committee to in- vestigate this question of boundary, so that the question may be met fairly, I am in fevor of the appointment of this committee. It seems to me unfair that those who hap- pen to entertain different views from us, in regard to the effect of the resolution adopted on Monday, should shut the door upon us, and say " because tee beheve the question is " settled we will not place you in such a posi- "tion before the Convention that you can " express your views and sentiments." My own locality or any individual senti- ments do not require that I should take any particular stand in reference to the matter. I do not propose to pledge myself to vote for one particular line or another. My simple desire is that both sides may be heard, and heard through a committee. When the proper time comes I think I can introduce an array of authorities — authorities which are the actions of Conventions which have assembled vmder Enabling Acts similar to oiurs — to !?how that this question is not set- tled, and that this Convention has the right to pray that Congress will alter the proposed boundaries. Wisconsin made such a prayer, Iowa made such a prayer, and Michigan, and Missouri, and Illinois made such a prayer. My recollection is that those prayers were heard in some instances, though not heard or respected in others. For these reasons I ask that the committee may be appointed to take the matter under consideration. If they believe that the ques- tion is settled, all tliey have to do is to make a report that, in their judgment, the Enabling Act has settled the matter, and that it is no longer a matter for debate or discussion in this Convention. If that shall be the opinion of the committee, so far as their duty is concerned, it will meet my approbation. The question was then taken on the motion of Mr. Secojcbe, and it was agreed to. On motion of Mr. COLBURN : " Ordered, that a commmittee of three be ap- pointed on Printing, and a committee of five on Supplies and Expenditures." On motion of Mr. COLBURN: " Ordered, that a committee of five be appointed to be called 'the committee on Elections and Credentials.' " rSE OF TEBKITOBIAL LIBRARY. Mr. COGSWELL. I offer the following resolution : " Besohed, That a special committee of three be appointed to ascertain if the members of this Convention can hare access to the Territorial Li- brarv, and if so durine what hours." 40 MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Wednesday, July 15. I have endeavored to obtain access to the Territorial library, and each time have found the door locked. I am not aware what tjjie rules and regulations of the library are. When I left home I supposed that every member would have access to the books in that library^ and for that reason neglected to bring books which I otherwise should have brought. I need the assistance of books to discharge my duties as a member of this Con- vention. I am not competent to originate a Constitution in all its parts without consult- ing books, containing the proceedings of other Conventions of other States ; and also other works. For that reason I have offered the resolution. The resolution was adopted and the Chair thereon appointed as such committee, Messrs. CoGGSWELL, Coombs, and Hudson. STATIONERY. Mr. FOSTER offered the foUowing resolu- tion : " Resolved,, That the committee on Supplies and Expenditures are hereby instructed to make a con- tract for a supply of 8taiionery for the use of the members and officers of this Convention, that is to say, not to exceed in amount $5 to eacli member, and such amount as they may deem necessary for the use of the officers of the Convention." The resolution was adopted. PRINTING THE ENABLING ACT. Mr. COGGSWELL. I submit the follow- ing resolution : " Besolved, That two hundred copies of the late Act of Congress entitled " An Act to authorize the people of the Territory of Minnesota to form a Constitution and State Government preparatory to their admission into the Union on an equal footing with the original States," be printed for the use of the members of this Convention." So far as my knowledge extends it appears to me that not one member in ten has a copy of what we denominate the Enabling Act, and in my judgnv5nt we do not understand its provisions as we ought. Mr. SECOMBE. I move to amend the resolution by adding " also an act of the *' Extra session of the Legislature of this " Territory in reference to the same subject matter of said act of Congress." Mr. COGGSWELL. I accept the amend- ment. The resolution as modified was llion adopted. And then on motion of Mr. NORTH, the Convention (at one o'clock) took a recess until three o'clock. AFTERNOON SESSION. The Convention re-assembled at three o'clock. SUPPLY OF PAPERS TO MEMBERS. MR. HARDING offered the foUowing res- olution : " Resolved, That the publishers of the St. Paul Daily Times, the St. Paul Advei^tiser, and the Daily MiiinesoUaii be requested to furnish to each of the members of this Convention, two copies of their several- daily papers during the session of this Convention." Mr. FOSTER. I would enquire why the "Pioneer" is not included ? It is just now a very interesting paper, and I want to have it. But I think the better way would be to use general language, requesting the Editors of the city papers to furnish us each with two copies daily. Mr. SECOMBE. If it is the intention of either of these papers to publish the journal of our proceedings, of course I desire to have the perusal of that paper. It seems to me that it would be better to have the Conven- tion make an arrangement to have the official journal of the Convention published in one paper or more, so that when we get the papers we shall get some equivalent for what we pay. To be sure there is interesting matter in all the papers, and especially the one named by Dr. Foster, but my object would be to procure each morning in print, the journal of the day before. Mr. PERKINS offered the following sub- stitute : "Resolved, That a select committee of three be appointed to negotiate with some one of the news- paper publishers in this city to publish an official report of the proceedings of this Convention, and furnish each member of the Convention daily with twelve printed copies of such report ; to be charged to the contingent expenses of the Convention." Mr. COGGSWELL. My present impres- sion is that it woiild not be any thing unusual, or out of the order of proceedings of Con- ventions of this kind to order copies of such newspapers as may be printed at the Capitol. The language of the substitute seems to imply — for I did not distinctly hear it — that we should procure copies of such papers as MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Wednesday, July 15. 41 shall publish the official reports of this Con- vention. I do not understand what is intended by that word "official." I do not under- stand that any paper in St. Paul or out of it publishes an official report of our proceed- ings. The word "official" seems to carry upon its face a meaning something like " legal authority ' ' in such connection . No authority has been delegated by this Convention to any publisher to publish anything in the nature of an official accoimt of our proceed- ings. What may be done hereafter I don't pretend to say. So far as I am concerned I do not care anything about any of these newspapers. That is, I am not in favor of appropriating Uncle Sam's money, or the money which per- haps win come out of the people of Min- nesota, to pay for newspapers for us to read. If we want to read this or that paper let us pay for it out of oiu- own pockets like men. I know of no authority vested in us as a Conventional body, either by the Enabling Act or any other law, to appropriate money for any such purpose. True Conventions have done such things before, but my impres- sion is that they have done so imder entirely different circumstances from those under which we are placed. I move to lay the resolution and the sub- stitute on the table. The question was taken, and the motion was not agreed to. Mr*. FOSTER. When we are here assem- bled upon the people's business, and are s\u-- rounded with papers which are constantly criticising our doings, and some in particular pointing out our errors, and which everybody sees but ourselves, imless we go and pay for them out of our own scanty stipend, I can see no reason why the people should not pay for what seems to be incident to our position as the people's agents. To them it is of little moment, but to us who have so many calls made upon our purse in consequence of our being here, it is a matter of considerable importance. I am not in favor at this time of engaging the publication of our official record, but I am in favor of having placed upon our desks the newspapers which have at least a sketch of our proceeding, and in some of them whole columns of criticisms upon our doings. We may learn something 6 from them and our constituents want to see what is going on as well as we do. How much easier to furnish them that information by papers than by letters, and how much more fully it can be done. Gentlemen say, why not do so out of our own pockets? We are engaged, not upon our business, but upon the people's business, and they ought to pay the expense. Nor should Uncle Sam begrudge a little expense to start us out with our fireedom papers. I will move to amend the substitute by striking out all after the word " resolved," and insert — "That the publishers of the varions daily and weekly newspapers of St. Paul be requested to furnish two copies of each publication to every member of this Convention." Mr. PERKINS. My idea is that there will be a paper selected to publish the official reports of this Convention. As to the other papers, it does not seem to me right to pro- cure them and saddle the expense upon the contingent expenses of the Convention. What is the object of having those papers at all ? Is it to circulate them through the country ? I am not as anxious to circulate those papers that lie about the Convention as I am those that state the truth, or furnish the official record. The statements of those papers mis- lead the pubhc mind, and prejudice it against the Convention. My object is to get a reasonable number of the correct reports of the Convention for each member, and send them among the people, that oiu: constituents may know what we are doing. It seems to me absurd to get copies of the Pioneer which does not teU a correct story, and only the same number of the papers which publishes the official report. Mr. SECOMBE. I am in favor substan- tially of the substitute, and opposed to the amendment. It seems to me that if we can have laid upon our tables each morning a paper which will publish the journal of our proceedings kept by the Secretary, it would be of great use to us. We could examine it and discover the errors, if any, before the Jommal is read by the Secretary. Upon a simple reading of the Journal, without inspec- tion, we are likely to let errors slip in, which would be corrected if we had laid upon our table, previously, a printed copy of it. I am opposed to the amendment, because I do not 42 MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— WEDNESiMY, July 15. think that we should call upon the pubUc to pay for papers, simply that we may read what is said about the Convention, or about matters outside of it. The true policy is for us ordi- narily to pay ourselves. I shall consequently vote for the substitute, and against the amendment. Mr. PERKINS. I do not so much object to extra copies, as I do to restricting the num- ber which contains the otficial report to the same number as the others. People at a dis- tance are not so well able to judge of the cor. rectness or incorrectness of the representa- tions in the papers as we arc. These journals do go abroad, and I have no objection to their being circulated by us, but I say the truth should be more extensively circulated. Twelve copies of the official report is better than twelve copies of garbled proceedings. Mr. MURPHY. I move that the word "weekly" be stricken out from the amend- ments. We get the dailies, which contain all that appears in the weekly. The motion was agreed to. Mr. HAYDEN. I move to amend the amendment by striking out "two" and in- serting "one." I think one copy of the Pioneer is all we need and one copy of each cf the other dailies will answer to furnish us with all the information we can get from them. When we get an official paper, I agree that it will be well to procure a larger number of that. I do not wish to send abroad such felshoods as are contained in some of the papers. Mr. NORTH. I have got hold of a copy of the Piomer once or twice, and there was choice matter in it which I desired to keep. I want to preserve some of them for future use, but I have been unable thus far to hold onto them. If I can get two copies I shall be likely to succeed. Mr. GERRISH. I think the best way is to send the Pioneer into the country with with the other papers. If our object is to convert the people to our views, that is the very best course we can pursue. The people will then see the ridiculous position the Pioneer takes, and having both accounts they can judge better how both parties stand. The question was taken on Mr. IIaydem's amendment, and it was not agreed to. Mr. CLEGUORN, offered the following amendment to 'the amendment. Strike out all after the word "resolved," and insert — " That each member of this Convention shall be entitled to ten copies daily of any paper published in this city, which he may select." Mr. COGGSWELL." I feel it my duty, as an individual, to place myself upon the record right in this matter. Simply because Con- ventions of this character have once done things, it does not follow that we should do the same things. Simply because a con- ventional body has ordered papers for the individual benefit of its members, it does not follow that we are bound to take the same course, or that we have a right to do so. It seems to me that we ought not to make an appropriation, either of our money, or of the Federal Treasury, unless there is some reason for it. The first reason assigned for doing so, was assigned by the gentlemen from Dakota county (Mr. Foster,) which was that we might learn something, provided we took that number of papers. There are other and better sources to which we can go for the purpose of obtaining information. What kind of information do we want? We want such kind of information as wilL enable us as members of the Convention, to discharge our duties. Is that information likely to be ob- tained from newspapers ? My impresaion is that the people of the Territory and the Federal Government have provided sources, which, if we can have access to them, are amply sufficient to aid us in that reSpect. Another thing. If we have the right to subscribe to newspapers in St, Paul, have we not the same right to subscribe for papers published in St. Anthony ? The gentleman from Dakota said he was in favor of taking copies of every paper of the city which publishes sketches of our proceedings. Suppose the St. Anthony papers should hap- pen t6 contain a sketch of our proceedings. Why not subscribe for them ? It strikes mo that we have the right to do the one as much as the other, and no more. If you can learn from St. Paul papers, you can from the St. Anthony papers. An attempt has been made to arraign the Pioneer. This is not the proper place to ar- raign any paper, Whenever wc are charged by any paper with a dereliction of duty, whether it be by the Piotmer, or Mlnmsotian, MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Wednesday, July 15. or any other paper, then, and not till then, is the time to defend ourselves. I want no better place to defend myself than before that tribunal which I recognize above all other tribunals, save one, and that is the tribunal of the people. It does not become us as members of the Convention, to arraign any paper before this Convention — neither to charge or intimate that any paper has been guilty of falsehood, unless they come indi- ■vidually and personally upon us as members, and then it might not be inappropriate for the individual aggrieved to make explanations. Another reason urged is, that we may send them home to our constituents, and this is made a permanent reason. The mere fact that such a thing will gratify our constituents is no reason why we should send those pa- pers. If I want to hu-e a liar I will hire and pay for him on my own hook, and wUl not ask Uncle Sam, or tliis Territory' to pay him. Another reason urged is, that we can see the arguments on both sides, and the posi- tions taken by individuals who represent both sides of certain questions. We can obtain such information on our own hook, and we ought not to make it a public biu-den simply for the purpose of ascertaining what our po- litical enemies say against us. Therefore I have made up my mind firmly against anything like ordering any number of these papers in St. Paul, unless they con- tain the oflBcial record of our proceedings. When that is done, I am ready and willing to make a liberal appropriation. Mr. WILSON. I am opposed to taking all and any of these papers in the way pro- posed. I think the probabihty is that the expenses of this Convention will be borne by the people of this Territory, and therefore I shall be a little more careful in our expendi- tures than I should be if they were to be borne by the United States. But m either case I do not think we have the right to order these papers at the public expense for distri- bution, and clearly not to take them for our own use. If we have, we have equally the right to pm-chase books for our own use. As to oiir pay being meagre, we knew that before oui- election, and I ventured to say that there are not more than one or two here who did not come here of their own free will «nd desire. We came here not because we were urged by the people, but because we wanted to come. Many others desired to come in our places. Let us look to the justice of this thing by taking papers for distribution among our con- stituents. And then to the item of expense. If I take a dozen copies for distribution to whom do they go but to a dozen of my par- ticular friends? I, sir, have some two thou- sand voting constituents. Each one has an equal claim upon me, but only a dozen get the papers purchased at the expense of the whole. More than that, two thousand voted the RepubUcan ticket, and one thousand did not vote it, and all are entitled to an equal share in the distribution. Now I say the masses get no benefit of the distribution. The distribution is partial, and made for per- sonal and political purposes. It cannot be otherwise. And what is the item of expense going to be ? Let me say here that every item of ex- pense of this Convention with interest ad- ded to it, will be arrayed before and held up to the people, for the purpose of making capital out of it. True, that should be no inducement to act, but we sshould be careful to act cau- tiously, and see that there is not that done which can be taken advantage of. What will be the expenditure in this case ? Say each member gets twelve copies. There are or will be sixty members. Twelve times sixty are seven hundred and twenty — the number of copies — ^which at five cents each amounts to $36 per day. Suppose we sit 30 days, — and we are more likely to sit double that time — we shall spent $1080 for the session for this one item alone, for the benefit of our- selves and our particular fiiends. That will make an item in the svma total of the expen- ses of the Convention, and I trust gentlemen wUl not vote in favor of it. I shall send oif just as many papers with- out the appropriation as with it, and others will do the same — true, at oin* own expense though. We came here, knowing that this was not money making business. But say some, we can, in this manner, have the proceedingsof this Convention^laid before us every morning, and can send them to our constituents for their information. I say we cannot have the journal of our proceedings so published. I have myself made inquiries 44 MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Wednesday, Jult 15. of authorities which know, and they tell me that it is impossible, here or elsewhere to have the proceedings of to-day laid before us to-morrow. Even in the city of Boston that could not be accomplished, much less here. Then all we should get would merely be a newspaper with some items and scraps of our proceedings in it. As to the Pioneer and Democrat, I am opposed to ordering it for a reason not urged as yet by any member. I would oppose tak- ing any lying work. But can we get this Pioneer and Democrat in the way you propose to ask for it? There is a reason which weighs with me more than any other. I would not put ourselves in the position of being refused. But independent of that, I would not take and circulate them at the expense of my constituents. If I circulate them, I do so out of my own money, and when that fails I take no more papers. Mr. PERKINS. One word about this bug-bear of expenses. I have no idea that it is going to cost us as much by the quantity as by the single paper. No such amount of expense as has been represented, will attend the taking of these papers. Fifteen cents per week I am told is the price of the dailies, and I do not think our constituents will cen- sure us at all. Mine are liberal enough to have an oflBcial report circulated among them. They need not all be sent to the same per- sons. To-day I would send to some individ- uals and to-morrow I would send to different ones, and they vnU be circulated from hand to hand, and nearly all will, in some way, get a correct idea of our proceedings here. That is the way such things are usually done, and % I believe the people are generally pleased with a moderate appropriation of that kind, to circulate the proceedings of legislative bodies among them. As to the impossibility of getting the jour- nal of the preceding day laid upon the tabic each morning, that is no great bug-bear. Sup- pose it should be a day or tA'O behind, it would not be material, but when it came we could circulate it as the official proceedings of this Convention. What ought to be done can be done. Mr. HUDSON. I wish to have it under- stood tlmt I am opposed to taking any news- papers unless we pay for them ourselves, and I think the argument of the gentleman from Winona [Mr. Wilson] upon that point per- fectly conclusive. We have no more right to pay out the people's money in the purchase of papers than we have in the purchase of books. The people sent us here for the pur- pose of making a Constitution, and we have no right to say that ten or twelve of those persons shall be enlightened, and that the others shall pay for it. Every man has the privilege of taking a paper for himself, and that is what should be done. I am in favor of every man's taking a paper, and in favor of every man's paying for it himself. Mr. MANTOR. I am reaUy glad that this question has been brought before the Conven- tion. What arguments have been deduced in this discussion, save what I have heard for a few minutes past, I do not know, but I am pleased that the subject is brought before us. I represent quite a large constituency who are a reading community, and who like to know what the Convention is doing. In order that they may have that information it is essentially necessary that we should pro- vide them with the means of obtaining it. How are they to obtain it ? By my money, the money of an individual ? That should be so according to other gen- tlemen's arguments. I want my constituents to have the information — the Lord bless my constituents, for I love them because they sent me here. (Laughter.) I wish the peo- ple were here to hear gentlemen's argimient, and I believe if we wei'c then to have another election there would be less of them here. I live thirty miles back from this great thoroughfare — the Mississippi — and I know of no other way of letting my constituents know that I am here, than by sending papers to them every day. To them it will be a gratification to know how my vote stands recorded upon the various questions which come under our consideration. In this view of the matter I hope the resolution will pre- vail. To-day I have spent the enormous sum of one whole dollar for the purpose of purchas- ing newspapers to send home to fiiy constit- uents, and whether this resolution prevails or not, I shall continue to do so from day to day, until the Convention adjourns, and for what purpose? Simply that the doings of MINNESOTA CONTENTION DEBATES— Wednesday, Jixr 15. 45 this Convention may be known to my con- stituents. I know that when the post offices are crowded with docimaents, the people are satisfied. As I said before, I represent a secluded district which cannot get the iofor- mation they desire as readily as people do who live on the river. The constituents of gentlemen living below, get a knowledge of the proceedings of this Convention every day, if not through the press, yet from indi- viduals who are passing through. My con- stituents have but one resort, and that is the press ; and I am in favor of crowding all the papers upon them that I can get. I think it is the duty of the Convention to pass the resolution, and I hope there is not a gentle- man here who wiU vote against it. I have before me a resolution of a similar character which was adopted by the Conven- tion which framed the Constitution of the State of TTisconsin, and it is in these words : •' Begolved. That each member of this Conven- tion be furnished with forty copies of any paper published in Madison during the session of this Convention." Let us study economy. That is all well, and as the resolution is one of confined lim- its, I shall support it. It amounts to little out of the sum which has been donated or appro- priated for the purpose of paying the expen- ses of this Convention. It is for the benefit of our constituents from whom the money comes. We do not receive the benefit of the resolution. We can get up any morning, and at our own tables, without any expense, see he brick bats which are daily hurled against this Convention, but our constituents know nothing about it. Let the resolution prevail and let the people have the papers. Mr. KING. I have made an estimate of this item of expense provided we sit here thirty days, and take ten copies each of a daily paper, and it amoimts to the sum of $540. The objection has been urged that a few privileged individuals only will get the information. I admit that fact and contend that it is ri^t. Bear in mind the fact that it is only a few prominent men in any common- wealth who imdergo the toils and vexations of carrying on the machinery of life. Go into any neighborhood and inquire into the political aspect of the times, and you win find only two or three that can teD you any thing about it. Well, it is through such men that we reach the masses who have not much time to read, or who, if they do read, under- stand and comprehend but little of what they peruse. Therefore it is right to send these papers to the few of our constituents who have the leisure to read and can comprehend readily what they see. Suppose I send home ten copies of a paper to the most active of my constituents, they immediately ^ean the news and then circulate the papers among some of their friends, and converse with oth- ers about their contents. In that way the papers go from Sunday morning to Satiu:day night, and they are read until they are worn out. Now, our constituents will say we are ne^ectful of our duty if we deny them this privilege. I am in favor of the last amendment. I have some democratic friends and it is my duty to ^ve them the information they will get throti^ the Democratic press, and so fer as I see fit to acconunodate them, I accommo- date my friends. I do not wish to make any charges against the press, but I will state that I can well see how the Pioneer may make more Republicans than any other paper published in St. Paul. I can cite many cases of converts it has made to the Republican faith. It acts as an emetic acts upon the physical system, — turns the stomach upside down, and leaves the body politic in a better condition than it fovmd it. Mr. STANNARD. I think there has been a great deal of powder lost here, as it is very doubtful, if the resolution passes, whether the newspapers in this city will trust the Con- vention to that amount. I move the previous question. The previous question was seconded. The question was then taken on the amend- ment to the amendment, and on a division there were yeas 24, nays 18. The question next reciured on the amend- ment to the substitute as amended, and being put it was decided in the affirmative. — Yeas 24, nays 16. The next question was upon the adoption of the substitute as amended, in place of the original resolution, and being put it was de- cided in the affirmative, — ^yeas 27, nays 15. So the resolution was finally passed in the following shape : 46 MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— TiaasD ay, July 16. " Eesolved, That each member of this Conven- tion shall be entitled to ten copies daily of any- paper, published in this city, which he may select." A slight discussion here arose, as to whether the resolution confined members to one par- ticular paper or not, and the result was that the vote by which the resolution passed was reconsidered, and then the resolution was re- ferred to a select committee of three, con- sisting of Messrs. Stannard, Foster and Cleghorn, to report back a resolution in a proper shape. QUALIFICATION OP OFFICERS. Mr. Wm. foster, sergeant-at-arms elect, presented himself to the Convention and was duly qualified by taking the usual oath of office. The oath of ofiice was administered to Wm. H. Shelly, who was this morning elected Messenger to the Convention. ACCEPTANCE OF THE PROPOSITIONS OF CONGRESS. Mr. McKUNE offered the following resolu- tion. " Resolved, That all propositions contained in section five of an act entitled ' An Act to author- ize the people of the Terrritory of Minnesota to form a Constitution and State Government prepa- ratory to their admission into the Union on an equal footiug with the original States,' are hereby fully accepted, and the President of the Conven- tion authorized to appoint a select committee to prepare an ordinance, irrevocable without the consent of the United States, that said State shall never interfere with the primary disposal of the soil within the same by the United States, or with any regulations Congress may find necessary to have, securing the title to said soil to hona fide purchasers thereof, and that no tax shall be im- posed upon lands belonging to the United States, and that in no case shall non-resident proprietors be taxed higher than resident proprietors." The resolution was laid over one day under the rules. Mr. GALBRAITH presented the creden- tials of Boyd Phelps, which were referred to the committee on Credentials. The committee subsequently reported that they had examined the credentials and had found them correct, and recommended that Mr. Phelps be admitted to a seat in the Con- vention. The report of the committee was accepted, and Mr. Phelps was qualified by taking tlie usual oath of office. On motion of Mr. SECOMBE the creden- tials of Mr. Phelps, were ordered to be en- tered at large upon the journals of the Con- vention. PRINTING OF THE CONVENTION. Mr. COGSWELL offered the following res- olution : ^'Resolved That the committee upon Public Printing have full power and authority to receive proposals and contract with the lowest and best bidder to do all the incidental printing, and also do the printing of the journals and debates of this Convention." Mr. HAYDEN. Does not that resolution lie over one day under the rules ? Mr. KING. I ask for the reading of the rule. The rule was read as follows ; " Every resolution debated or giving rise thereto lies over one day without debate or other action." The resolution was laid over. Mr. MURPHY (at five o'clock and five minutes p. m.,) moved to adjourn. The yeas and nays were demanded and ordered, and the question being taken, thei*e were yeas 28, nays 24, as follows : Yeas — Messrs. Anderson, Baldwin, BoUes, Cleg- horn, Cederstam, Coombs, Davis, Eschlie, Gal- braith, Gerrish, Hall, Hudson, Hanson, Holly, King, Kemp, Lyle, Lowe, McCann, McKune, Mur- phy, Phelps, Peckham, Secombe, Vaughn, Winell, Watson and Wilson. — 28. Nays — Messrs. Balcombe, Bates, Billings, But- ler, Colburn, Coggswell, Coe, Duley, Dickerson, Foster, Folsom, Hayden, Harding, Mantor, Mes- ser, Morgan, Mills, North, Perkins, Putnam, Robbins, ilussell and Smith. — 24. The committee accordingly adjourned imtil nine o'clock to-morrow morning. FOURTH DAY. Thursday, July 16, 1857. The Convention met pursuant to adjourn- ment, at 9 o'clock, A. M. The roll of the Convention was called, when a quorum of members answering to their names. The Journal of yesterday was read and approved. On motion of Mr. ALDRICH— " Ordered, That the letter of the Rev. E. D. Neill be taken from the table, read and filed with the Secretory of the Convention." MINNESOTA CONTENTION DEBATE^-TncRSDAV, Jcly 16. 47 The communication was accordingly taken firom the table and read to the Convention. XEWSPAPERS FOB MEMBEBS. Mr. FOSTER, from the Select Committee to whom was referred the resolution in rela- tion- to famishing members with newspapers, reported the following resolution, with a recommendation that it do pass, viz : " Besolvol, That not exceeding ten copies of the daily newspapers, or their equivalent in value of weekly newspapers, be allowed to each member of the Convention ; that each member fhmish a list in writing to the Assistant Secretary of the nam- ber of each newspaper he desires, and said As- sistant Secretary is hereby required to notify the several publishers of the number of copies required, and request that they be delivered to the SergeaAt- at-Arms, of the Convention, to be distributed by him according to the list famished to him by the Assistant Secretary." The report of the committee was accepted and the resolution adopted. ACCEPT ASCE OF THE PBOPOSmOXS OFCOSGBESS. Under the order of business, the Conven- tion took up for consideration the resolution oflFered yesterday by Mr. McKuse. . The resolution which was reported to the Convention, relates to accepting the proposi- tions contained in the fifth section of the Enabling Act of Congress. Mr. MORGAN moved that the resolution be referred to the Standing Committees on Miscellaneous provisions. Mr. FOSTER. I question whether that is the best committee to which to refer the reso- lution. "We had better look over our com- mittees and see what they are, and wliat their duties are, otherwise this committee on Mis- cellaneous business will have too many matters referred to them. The Act of Congress, called the Enabling Act, requires us to make provision, either by a clause in the Con.stitution, or by an ordi- nance irrevocable, that we will never interfere with the primary disposal of the soQ by the United States ; that we will not tax the lands of non-residents higher than those of residents, &c. It is the opinion of some persons that we should comply with that requirement by an ordinance, so that the Commissioner of the Land Office might be immediately notified thereof, as the per centage upon the sale of the public lands would commence firom its passage. Others think that the ordinance should be passed by the first State Legisla- ture. It would seem that any such ordi- nance passed by us, must be incorporated into the Constitution ; if not so, why should the Enabling Act say, "by a clause in said " Constitution." Mr. MORGAN. I am not exactiy able to see how a Convention assembled for the pur- pose of forming a State Constitution, can pass an ordinance. The questicaa comes up, what is to give validity to that ordinance ? Is it to be voted upon by the people separately firom the Constitution? I am of the im- pression that the only mode in which we can meet the matter, is to incorporate such a clause in some manner in the Constitution, but my mind is not ftiUy satisfied upon the point. Mr. FOSTER. I would suggest that we had better let the resolution lie on the table imtil we can look over the Standing Commit- tees, and perhaps we can find some other committee to which it can more properly be referred. Mr. MORGAN withdrew his motion of reference. Mr. SECOMBE. The meaning of this Enabling Act is perhaps a littie ambiguous. It is as foUows : " Provided, The foregoing propositions hereby offered are on the condition that the said Conven- tion which shall form the Constitution of said State, shall provide by a clause in said Constitu- tion, or an ordinance, irrevocable without the consent of the United States, that said State shall never interfere, kc." Now the question arises whether it was the intention of Congress to pve the Convention the choice between two methods, or whether there is. simply only one method pointed out to them. The question is whether the word "or" is conjunctive or disjimctive. It occurs to me that it would be safer, at any rate, to construe it as a conjunctive conjunction, as though it read, " by a clause in said Constitu- " tion which shall be an ordinance irrevocable "without the consent of Congress." It is certainly susceptil^le of that construction. Of course it should be referred to a commit- tee. It was a point suggested by me yester- day whether a distinct Standing Conunittee should not be appointed, to whom should be referred these propositions. 48 MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Thursday, July 16. Mr. MORGAN. I move that the resolu- tion be laid upon the table. The motion was agreed to, and the resolu- tion was laid on the table. PRINTING FOE THE CONVENTION. Mr. COGGSWELL called up for consider- ation his resolution of yesterday, which was as follows : "Resolved, That the coimnittee on Public Print- ing have full power and authority to receive proposals and to contract with the lowest and best bidder to do all the incidental printing, and also to do the printing of the journal and debates of this Convention." Mr. BATES. I am opposed to that resolu- tion, because I am opposed to giving our printing to certain papers in St. Paul which misrepresent our proceedings, even though they may do it cheaper than others would. Mr, FOSTER. In this new country in par- ticular, and sometimes in the older parts of our country, this method of letting legislative printing to the lowest bidder is very much of a humbug. No matter what the rate of their contract, the printers, in such matters, man- age in the shape of extras, to get more than the printing would cost if let out at printer's regular rates. I have seen this kind of ope- ration carried on at legislative capitols. I recollect a case which occurred in connection with the Legislature of Pennsylvania. Tha- body got into a difficulty about the printing and let it to the lowest bidder. At the end of his three years it was generally agreed that the printing had cost more than under the old contract. You cannot construct a contract which the printer, cannot, so to speak, drive a coach and four through. It arises from the peculiar nature of their business. Very few understand it, and though you may restrict the printer to so much per thousand ems, and so much per page for press work, he will as- tonish you with a quantity of ems and an amount of press- work that you did not dream of, and he will prove his account, too, in a court of justice, if necessary, to be correct, according to his contract. The man who will take the contract for the purpose of getting it, is the very man to resort to underhanded means to get all he waiil^. I prefer employ- ing a printer at tlie usual rates, compelling liira to resort to no trickery or arts in order to get ath July instant, and that all persons who claim to be entitled to seats as delegates be respectfiilly requested to present their claims to this Conven- tion before that time." Mr. NORTH. I should be in favor of that substitute, if amended by striking out the request to the Preadent to delay the appoint- ment of Committees. With that exception, I prefer the substitute to the original. Mr. SEGOMBE. I did not intend to make any remarks upon the original resolution, but the substitute presents a different aspect of affairs, and I shall oppose it. I believe it is the wish of a majority of the Convention that the committees should be appointed immedi- ately, and that we proceed to the discharge of the duties for which we have assembled, and then go home and present the Constitution to the people for ratification. I do believe it is bad poUcy to delay the matter any longer. "We are properly organized and ready to pro- ceed to business. We are already near the close of the first week, and this proposition is for the still further delay of two or three days. I do not favor the object of this delay, but I do not propose to object to the passage of the resolution imaccompanied by the definite action proposed by the substitute. Mr. GALBRAITH. "SVhen this resolution was first presented I regarded it unfevorably. It is well known that my desire is for union if possible — ^any union which will not sacrifice any prerogatives which this Convention has already acquired ; which will not sacrifice our dignity, and our rights to be an organized Convention. I stand here feeling just as cer- tain that we are organized according to law and justice, as I can be. I feel that we are the Constitutional Convention contemplated by the law. For that reason and various others which I need not mention, I came to the con- clusion last night that longer delay was un- necessary and uncalled for, and that we ought to have the committees announced to-day. I said that when the resolution was first submitted I disapproved of it. But wise men in this body, in whom I have confidence, and and one especially in whose judgment I have as much confidence as in any man in this body, have suggested to me that it is well probably to pass this resolution. He says to me, " You are a lawyer, and does not this " resolution operate as a notice to those who " have not pres«ited their credentials that " we will not wait beyond a certain time, and " if they whose services we need and desire " upon the committee, do not appear within " that time, we will proceed to their appoint- " ment ?" Such would be but following out the corffse usually taken in matters of public concern. Now there are among that niunber of men not in this Convention — kept out, I am sorry to say, by some foolish party whim, I know not what — on whom this Territory looks with great esteem and respect. So do I, and so do we all. They are men who have the qualifi- cations of that mature intelligence which entitle them to important positions upon the Com- mittees of this body. If those men refuse to come in, yet we shMl have ^ven them public notice of the fact. The substitute is nothing more than the original resolution, with the simple addition of a fixed time for the appointment of the committees. As to the day, it is but to- morrow and Monday next. Saturday and Sabbath intervene. In that period they can have time to consider, we will be ri^t upon the record, and the world will see, as we can see now, that this Convention have acted fairly ; that they have organized and have the power in their hands, but have not made a desperate use of that power. We, gentlemen, are imder the protection of law, and the pro- tection of the majority, as we believe. We are here, plainly, clearly, and wisely organ- ized. What submission is it for the victor to be honorable? Why strike a fallen foe? Hold our position where we are firmly, and what will the world say ? It will stamp the brand of falsehood upon the slander cast forth, that this Convention has met here as a mob, and that we are so. It will make a clean record. Men who read our records will award us justice and say we are right. Reconciliation upon honorable terms is the disposition of every man in this body. Upwi this groimd we stand, and ask for our ri^ts and ask for nothing more. Is not that fair? 60 MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Friday, July 17. What harm, then will this do us ? It is im. portant that we should be right upon the re- cord, and, that we should refute the slanders, which have been heralded throughout the counhy. Be right ourselves, and if others will persist in the wrong, convinced against their will, we wash our hands of the consequences and say — " Gentlemen, you are the victims of " your own folly." I hope that the resolution will pass, not that I was Originally in favor of it, but be- cause wise and cool heads in this body, and as firm men as ever stood upon this floor, have said they wanted the resolution passed. I yield to their views, and I trust that every member of this Convention will yield to what is right, and adhering to our ovm, tell the world that we are ready to do right and jus- tice to others. Mr. FOSTER. I offered my substitute with some fear that it might be objected to by many members, because I well know the anxiety of the Convention to proceed to busi- ness, and because I know their convictions are that we are the Convention, and that there is no doubt as to the correctness of our position. For those reasons I felt reluctant to offer it. But I thought I had reason to believe that it was better for us to pursue the course usually pursued in all courts of justice — give notice before we take judgment. Let them know that if on or before a certain day they do not perform or complete a cer- tain act, we will and can wait no longer. It at once removes all excuse for delay. They know and the public know that our course is marked out, and that we are going right straight ahead. It is but a small concession. To-day nothing vrill be done ; to-morrow is a non- working day, and Sunday is another. All that is asked is to delay until Monday morning, to give them notice of the delay, and that after that time the record is made up, and our course is onward. If after that, any thing happens which they do not like, theirs is the fault. Mr. PERKINS. I do not intend to oppose the resolution of my colleague, although I am unable to sec the propriety and dignity of stopping at this period of the Convention and attempting to clear up our character. We are assembled by authority of law, and assembled for legitimate business. I think if the course we hereafter pursue is as consist- ent as the one heretofore, all will be well in the end. I am opposed however to the sub- stitute because it proposes still further delay, contrary to the well expressed sentiment of a majority yesterday. It seems to me to be the play of children. I see no evidence of a disposition on the part of those holding cer- tificates to come into this body. They were in this Hall on the day specified in the Ena- bling Act for the assembling of this Conven- tion. But they staid only long enough to adjourn themselves and go out of the Hall. I do not consider that we are bound, in honor or courtesy, to wait longer, and have our noses snubbed any more by those disaf- fected delegates, if any such there are. We can afford now to go along with our business and do the work for which we are assembled. If we are assembled according to law, why stop to clear up our character, and make any further show to the world than we have already made, that we intend to do the fair thing. If there are any individuals in town entitled to seats, let them present theii* certifi- cates, and then it will be soon enough to show that we have no disposition to exclude them from this body. I hope the resolution will not be adopted, and that the committees will be appointed, in accordance with the general sentiment yesterday. Mr. KING. We have no evidence in any oflBcial document that there ever has been a disposition upon the part of the Convention to exclude any members from their seats, and these outside reports, of which gentlemen are atraid, are not true. What is the use of ask- ing men to disbelieve what they know is not true? They know they have the right to come here. If I wanted to go into a body to which I had a right of admission 1 would knock at the door, and if not admitted would take due course of law to get my rights. I would not wait to be invited and coaxed in any such manner. If we coax them in, they will be, when they get in, like other spoUed children. Let them come in like men, and they will act like men. I have myself como to the conclusion that some of our men who have been unflinching heretofore, are begin- ning to wjvcr, and are becoming afraid of the consequences. If I see much further demonstrations of the kind, I shall vote for MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— J-^ridat, Jllt 17. <1 some new leaders who will go ahead witliout fear. Mr. MESSER. I see there are some gen- tleman here in favor of the resolution and opposed to the substitute. There seems to me an inconsistency in this. If they are in favor of inviting those gentlemen to come in, it is inconsistent to say that they will proceed with business at once so that they shall be debarred fix)m being members of the com- mittees. Mr. BILLINGS. I ask each member of the Convention, if the passing of the resolu- tion would accomplish the object contemplated by it, he would not vote for it ? WiU it not have a direct influence towards accomplishing that object? I have learned that concession always comes with better grace firom a su- perior, and I have found its influence in individual cases extremely beneficial, and I think its exercise exalts instead of debases the man. It is said that we are confident of our integrity, and of the correctness of our position and that we ought to pursue our course energetically. That is true, but there is a haste which is not proper. TVe may nm so fast that we stimible. "We should make all due progress, and discharge ovu* du- ties faitlifuUy, efficiently, and in such a man- ner as to be able to go home to the people and stand approved in that second sober thought which will be brought to bear upon our actions. I do not consider a wish to de- lay tliis matter as an evidence that we wish to turn back. "When I consider the interests at stake, the object for which we are met, and the difficulties which will be obviated by a little caution, I am certainly vrilling to vote for this delay. There is no man present who is not aware that we shall meet with innu- merable difficulties, even if we form a Consti- tution, if it is an erparte one. Now, is there any man so fearful, so distrustful that the right will not prevail, that we must iu"ge on our matters to day ? Is there any disrespect or want of good faith in saying to those men that we want them to come in ? I would delay action not only to-day and to-morrow, but still further if in this great work we could be united and move on harmoniously as one man in the accomplishment of the work for which we were sent here. I do not believe in turning back, not at all. I believe that we are the regular Convention, that its duties are to be performed by us, and so far from yielding, if a majority say pro- gress now, I am with them, but it is my candid opinion that it is discreet and proper to say to those who are not present to see what we do, and who are beyond the reach of the influences which prevail here, that we are willing, yea, anxious to avail ourselves of the intelligence, the experience and the wis- dom of all elected to this Convention, in the formation of a Constitution, which is not for us alone, but for future generations. The breach is widened by outside influences, and no other power than this Convention can heal it. I propose to do nothing dishonorable to those members of the Convention, and I ask for no concessions. But I would say to them that we have open doors, open hearts, and ready hands to welcome them here. Mr. NORTH. I have not desired to occu- py time in the discussion of this resolution. It seems to me that it is well to pass it. The more I reflect upon it, the more I am in favor of the substitute as it stands, without the amendment which I suggested when I was up before. It is gratifying to me to see the determina- tion and resolution of the Convention ; and to see even our clerical friends nerve them- selves in so war-like a manner, is a little refreshing, and even if they accuse some of us of being tame and flagging in our patriot- ism, we will bear vrith them for the purpose of seeing the good, courage and grit there is upon their part. But it seems to me there is nothing lost in showing courtesy in this mat- ter. K I thought there was a member of this Convention who regretted any step this Convention had taken, who wavered for a moment in r^ard to the straight forward course we should piirsue, I should feel very differently firom what I do. But I have the most complete and perfect confidence in every member of the Convention — even in those who would suspect us of flagging ; and having that perfect confidence and security in regard to the matter, I feel as though I should like to see this Convention show its good nature, its magninimity and its kind feelings towards those who have placed themselves in an awk- ward position. I know if we were in their position, we woxild like to be taken cordially 62 MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Fikday, Ji;ly i; by the hand and to be treated with that cour- tesy with which we all desire to bo treated. There is sometimes a great deal gained by forbearance. We have seen that exemplified in the warfare in Kansas, where some of the true patriots were impatient and indignant at the forbearance, and what they sometimes thought, the timidity of the Free-State lead- ers in Kansas. But experience has taught that that forbearance was the truest wisdom. If we err, let it be upon the side of forbear- ance, and not by raslmess and haste throw away, the possibility of harmonizing this Con- vention, and cut ofl' the prospect of a speedy formation of a State, and the admission of Minnesota into the American Union. I hope gentlemen will look upon this matter in a practical light. While we concede nothing of our rights in doing this, we do show a dis- position of neighborly fairness, jdnd feeling and courtesy towards those who occupy a position different from ours. I hope the sub- stitute will pass, and it would do me good to see it pass unanimously. Mr. PECKHAM. When the resolution was first introduced it struck me as being beneath the dignity of this body, and as in- sulting to those members, but on a second thought I am led to believe that it is in pur- port, what it was in the spirit and intent of the mover. I has been suggested that the resolution is unprecedented; and certainly the circumstances are unprecedented. If I recollect right there was a sort of semi-ofiicial statement made that the members of this Convention, not in this HaU, were actually excluded from it. I refer to the answer of the President of the Convention to a certain demand which was made for the Ilall, at a time when we were in session, by him who assumed that he had the right, by virtue of his ofiBce as Secretary of the Territory, to preside over this Convention. Perhaps this body ought to take the earliest opportvmity possible to correct any such impression, if it exists. It may be possible that those who have neglected to take their seats with us may be laboring under the idea tliat they were excluded from this body by that reply, and as has been said, every act of concilia- tion, mildness and forbearance upon our part, will redound to our honor. Let us do all we can consistently to throw oil upon the troubled waters, and to accomplish that for which we were sent here, in order that Minnesota may, as speedily as possible come in as one of the States of our Union. Mr. COLBURN. At the present time almost every deliberative body is divided into two classes, the one denominated " A'oung Americans," and the other " Conservatives," and sometimes " Old Fogies." Now I sup- pose if this body were thus divided I should be classified with the "Young Americans," but I am disposed under the circxmistances in which we are placed, to listen to the voice of wisdom, and to pursue the course believed to be most judicious. If I err, I choose to be upon the right side. The circmnstances are peculiar, and demand cautious action upon our paii;. When I came here this morning I was in favor of proceeding with our busi- ness immediately, but having conferred with gentlemen of the Convention in whose expe- rience, wisdom and integrity I have great confidence, I am now inclined to tliink it will be judicious for us to pursue the course pro- posed by the substitute. It will serve as a notice to those who are without, that unless they see fit by a certain time, to come in and take part with us, we shall proceed without them. I hope it wUl be adopted. Mr. COGGSWELL. I admire in the first place, the kind sentiment and feeling which have been manifested here by certain individ- uals upon my right. They are men of high standing, whose opinions and sentm^ents are entitled to the highest regard, and I warrant you, should they see any of their friends, or even enemies, in circumstances requiring aid, they would be the first men to step forward and grant it. But it seems-to me that this is not the proper time or place to express our S3rmpathetic feelings. We are assembled here as a Convention for the purpose of trans- acting business as such Convention, and so far as this substitute is concerned, I, as an individual, am opposed to the whole of it. Why ? Not because it proposes to delay the announcement of the Standing Committees ; for in my judgment that would make no difference in regard to the result of our delib- erations. I wish to tell gentlemen here, if I understand what is to come in the future, that this idea of hurrying on with our proceedings will prove to be wholly fallacious. The idea MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Friday, Jcly 1^ 68 that we can lay the result of our deliberations before our constituents in one, three, or fire weeks is fcillacious. If we look at what our duties must necessarily be, we shall see at once that we cannot perform some of the most material parts of our labor until we as- certain the amount of our population. With- out that, how are we to arrive at our repre- sentative, state, senatorial, and congressional districts ? Can you get the census in one, two or three weeks ? How will you obtain it ? If you cannot obtain it, how can you complete yom- labors and go home to your constituents with your constitution ? It is not then that the substitute proposes to delay the appointment of the committees that I oppose it, but because, if I understand it, it offers to those gentlemen what I should consider an insult. Much has been said in regard to its being a concession on our part. Should it pass, I should not regard it as such, but as an insult to those who should be mem- bers of this body. AYhy ? We J)ropose, in the first place, to tell them that they are mem- bers of this Convention ; not only that, but they are entitled to seats here ; and not only that, but that we want them to come into the Convention and deliberate with us. Are they fools? Do not they know that they are elected as members of this Convention, and are we, the legitimate body, to sit here and adjudicate upon that fact before they present their credentials ? Is it for us to say to them, " You are actually members of the Conven- "tion, and now for Heaven's sake come in?" If I were one of those gentiemen, I would regard it as a practical insult. I would say to you members of the Convention — " You " have no authority to tell me, nor is there " any propriety in your teUing me, what my "rights and privileges are. I know them " weU myself." For that reason I am oppos- ed to the passage of the resolution. If we were sitting in caucus, and an attempt were being made to bring about a reconiciliation between Democratic and Re- publican members of • this Convention, my judgment is that I should use just as sympa- thetic words as have been used here, for the purpose of effecting that reconciliation. And, in my judgment, a caucus is the only proper place to consider such a subject a.s this. Much has been said about slanders which have been circulated. How do you know that slanders have gone abroad ? Has any member of this Convention been hit ? If he has, what were the means used for hitting him? Some might say the newspapers of St. Paul. And to show to the Editors of the newspapers, and the people of Minnesota that he has been wronfully charged with cer- tain conduct, and that he is not such a scoun- drel and villain as has been asserted, gentie- men would have this resolution passed. Let me tell gentiemen that I want no better place to repel any false charges which may be brought against us, than the stimip before the people. I want no better evidence than the newspapers themselves, and the record of our proceedings. Again, how do you know that there are any members outside of this Convention? When I introduced my resolution a short,time since, touching the fact that certain members had been elected who were federal officers, post- masters excepted, objection was raised iliat a question of that kind was not before the Con- vention, and that it could not be raised before us as a Conventional body except in the case that such a man had presented his certificate of election, and his seat was contested. But now we propose to take it for granted that there are certain men running around St. Paul, who are actually members of this Con- vention, and vmder a " whereas " the resolu- tion assmnes that there are such members, and proposes to invite them in. For myself I am opposed toany such " whereases " with such assumptions attached to them. If there are such men, they know their rights ; and if they know them, like the rest of us, they win maintain them. Such is our determina- tion, and my judgment is, such is their deter- mination. For that reason it strikes me that to pass tills resolution would be a departure from our dignity as a body. We should go on and discharge our legitimate functions and duties, and when tiie proper time comes for us to repel slanders, let us repel them. What will this invitation to them to come in, amount to? Suppose the resolution is passed, do you suppose they will come in, in accordance with it ? Why, they will make all kinds of ridicule of us : they will lau^ at us : they will sneer at us ; and in my judg- men they will do nothing more than right e4 MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Feiday, Jcly 17. For that reason I am in favor of going about our business as a Convention, and opposed to going to work to compromise with individu- als in the streets of St. Paul, whom we assume to be members. Mr. McCLURE. I offer the foUowing amendment to the substitute : Strike out all before the word " resolved" and all after the word " resolved" and insert : "By this Constitutional Convention, that there are districts within the limits of the proposed State of Minnesota unrepresented in this Conven- tion (at the present time) and being desirous that every district should be fully represented in the committees of this Convention, we therefore re- quest the President of this Convention, to defer the appointment of the said committees until 11 o'clock, A. M., on Monday next, in order to give time for absent delegates to present their creden- tials." I hope this amendment will be adopted, not because it is offered by myself, but be- cause I am opposed to all " whekeases" and to anything of the kind, assuming that there are gentlemen in town entitled to seats in this Convention, who have not presented their credentials. As a member of this Constitu- tional Convention I do not know anything about it ; as a man I know something about all these matters, but as a member I have no right to know whether a majority of this Convention are RepubUcans or Democrats. All I know is that I am a member of the Constitutional Con- vention assembled at the Capitol at St. Paul, for the purpose of transacting the legitimate business of such Convention. But all men know that there are certain districts unrep- resented here. Who should represent those districts I know not. Whoever they are, the probability is that business or sickness de- tains them at home ; at any rate the assump- tion is that they are lawfully detained. We arc not to presume that they are in town, and refuse to present their credentials. Well, in order to give them time to get here and to participate in our proceedings, and to take part as members of our committees, I offer my amendment and hope to sec it adopted. Mr. GALBRAITH. That amendment ex- actly suits my views. The gentleman has exactly hit the nail upon the head. The question was then taken by yeas and nays upon the adoption of the amendment to the substitute, and it was decided in the af- firmative, yeas 51, nays 1 as follows : Teas — Messrs. Aldrich, Anderson, Ayer, Bal- combe, Baldwin, Bates, Bartholomew, Billings, Bolles, Butler, Colburn, Coggswell, Coe, Ceder- stam, Coombs, Davis, Duley, Dickerson, Eschlie, Foster, Folsom, Galbraith, Gerrish, Hall, Hayden, Harding, Hudson, Hanson, Holly, King, Lyle, Lowe, Mantor, McClure, Messer, Morgan, Mills, Murphy, Perkins, Putnam, Peckham, Bobbins, Ilussell, Stannard, Secombe, Smith, Sheldon, Vaughn, Walker, Winell and Watson. JVai/s — Mr. Phelps. The substitute as amended was then adop- ted. ENTEKING CREDENTIALS ON THE JOURNALS. Mr. ALDRICH. I move to reconsider the vote, taken the other day, by which the Secre- tary was directed to enter our credentials on the journals of the Convention. It seems to me entirely unnecessary to make such an entry. It makes a great deal of work for the Secre- tary, and it will cost something to print them. The credentials have been referred to a com- mittee, by them examined and reported to the Convention as correct. It seems to me that that is all that is necessary. Mr. COGSWELL. I hope the motion will not prevail. For one I am in favor of having the evidence of my right to a seat in the Convention, placed upon the journal. The question was taken and the motion to reconsider prevailed. The question then was " shall the creden- tials be entered upon the journals?" and be- ing put it was lost. On motion of Mr. FOSTER, it was— Ordered. That the credentials of members be filed with and preserved by the Secretary. PLACING THE ENABLING ACT ON THE JODENAL. Mr. HUDSON offered the foUowing resolu- tion : "Beaolved, That the law of Congress under which this Convention has assembled be recorded on the first page of the journal of the first day's proceedings." The resolution was laid over one day un- der the rules. ADJOUBNMENT OVER. Mr. SECOMBE. I move that when the Convention adjourns, it adjourn initil Monday morning at 9 o'clock. Mr. GALBRAITH. I should prefer that we adjourn to a later hour on Monday, as some of us, having business at home, do not live quite as near as the gentleman from St. Anthony. I move 11 o'clock, as an amend- ment. MINNESOTA CuNVENTION DEBATES— Fsiday, Jcly 17. 65 Mr. SECOilBE. I accept the amendment. Mr. COGGSWELL. I can see no good reason why we should adjourn imtil Monday, imless it be to accommodate a few of our friends who happen to live within a short distance from St. Paul. It is well known that most of us Uve at a great distance from this point. I Uve about one hundred miles distant. I wish here to state that I hope the Convention vriU not adjourn until ihsA time, for the reason that I intend, after con- sultation \vith members of this Convention, to move an adjournment for some three weeks or more. I am inclined to think that an adjournment for that length of time vrill be necessary for the circumstances under which we are placed. If we diould come to the conclusion that that is necessary, it seems to me that we might come to that conclusion between this time and next Monday morning, if we remain in session. There is certain information indispensibly necessary for us to have before we can go to work successfully. The way and manner in which we can obtain that information is a great question in my mind. There are certain methods which can be adopted for the purpose of procuring it. If we adjourn now until Monday, considera- ble time wild^lapse in which we cannot trans- act the business which should be transacted prior to a conclusion of the Convention that they will adjourn over two or three weeks. The question was taken on the motion to adjourn over and it was decided in the negative. ACCEPTANCE OF THE PKOPOSITIONS OF CON- GRESS. Mr. ROBBIXS called up for consideration the resolution of Mr. !McKuxe, presented on Wednesday last and laid on the table under the rules, in reference to accepting the propo- sition submitted to Congress, contained in the fifth section of the Enabling Act. The resolution was read. Mr. ROBBIXS. I understand that it is necessary that we should dispose of this matter before any action is taken in the for- mation of a Constitution. We should dispose of it as soon as possible, in order that we may receive the benefit of the fifth section, by which five per cent, of the net proceeds of the public lands are granted to ike State to be disposed of by the Legislature. 9 i There is one point in the fifth section which i should be looked at, and that is this : I j "Provided, The foregoing propositions herein I offered are on the condition that the said Con- I vention which shall form the Constitution of said i State shall provide, bv a clause in said Constitu- ' tion, or an ordinance, irrevocable without the con- I sent of the United States, that said State shall • never interfere with the primary disposal of the I soil \vithin the same, by the United States, &c" It seems to me that this clause leaves it ; discretionary with us as to the manner in I which it shall be complied with, whether by I a clause in the Constitution, or by an ordi- 1 nance. It was contended yesterday that ! this Convention had no right to pass an ordi- nance. It seems to me otherwise. If we I do so, we avail ourselves of the immediate ! benefit of the five per cent, provision, because the ordinance will go into efiect immediately upon its passage, and notice given of it to the Commissioner of the General Land Office. I hope the resolution will be adopted, and I know of no more appropriate time than the present. Mr. KING. I think the gentleman is mis- taken in his construction of the proviso. It provides that we put a clause in the Consti- tution, or an ordinance in the Constitution. It seems to me that the compliance must ap- pear in the Constitiition, and we shall get no benefit of the five per cent, fund imtil the Constitution is adopted. Mr. GALBRAITH. I move that the reso- lution be laid on the table. My object is to have it referred to one of the standing com- mittees, when they are appointed. The motion was agreed to, And the resolu- tion was laid upon the table. On motion of Mr. HARDING, (at 12 o'clock and 30 minutes) the Convention took a recess until 2 o'clock. AFTERNOON SESSION. The Convention was called to order at two o'clock: TAKING OF THE CENSUS. Mr. COGGSWELL on leave offered the following resolution : " Besolved, That a Committee of three be ap- pointed to wait upon the United States Marshal, and ascertain if any steps are being taken by him in regard to the taking of the census, and if so, at what time in his judgment, he will be able to lay the same before the committee." 66 MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Saturday, July 18. Mr. C. said: I wish to say that in my judgment it would not be improper for this Convention to ascertain what action the United States Marshal intends to take in regard to the census. For that reason I hope the rules will be suspended and that this resolution will be acted on to-day. The rules were not suspended and the reso- lution was laid over imder the rules. , Mr. ROBBINS moved that the Convention adjourn. The motion was not agreed to. Mr. NORTH. I would suggest that the Convention adjourn over until Monday at 11 o'clock in order to give those who do not reside at any great distance time to go home. Mr. HAYDEN. I do not think that it would be wise for the Convention to take that course. Mr. NORTH. Very well, I wiU not make the motion. The Convention then adjourned until to- inorrow at 11 o'clock, a. m. SIXTH DAY. Saturday, July 18, 1857. The Convention met at 11 o'dock. Prayer by the Chaplain, Rev. E. D. Neii.l. The Journal of yesterday was read and -approved. BEPOBTING. Mr. NORTH. The committee having •charge of the matter of employing a reporter 'beg leave to report : "That after jpnferring with several gentlemen 'upon the subject, they have received a proposition from Mr. Anduews to take a full report of the de- bates and proceedings of the Convention at the ■rate of $6.25, per one thousand words. The com- mittee have become satisfied that it is the best ar- rangement they can make, and therefore submit the following resolution : Resolved, That Thkodork F. Andrews, Esq., be employed to take a full report of the proceedings of this Convention, and that he be allowed $0.25 per thousand words for taking such report. The resolution was adopted. ACCEPTANCE OF UNITED STATES PKOPOSITIONS. Mr. PERKINS. I have a resolution wliich I wisli to offer as a substitute for the one -offered yesterday, which, if I recollect it, pro- posed to provide an ordinance accepting thq propositions of the Enabling Act. Some questions were raised at that time as to the meaning of the Enabling Act. For the pur- pose of silencing any questions of that kind, I propose to introduce the resolution in a little different shape. I move this as a substitute : "Eesolved, That -there be incorporated into the Constitution of the State of Minnesota to be framed by this Convention, a clause, irrevocable withoirt the consent of the United States, ' That the said State shall never interfere with the primary dis- posal of the soil within the same by the United States, or with any regulations Congress may find necessary for the securing the title in said soil to 'bonafide purchasers thereof; and that no tax shall be imposed on lands belonging to the United States ; and that in no case shall non-resident pro- prietors be taxed higher than residents.' " It seems to me this is all the Convention need do now, and it seems to me that the Con- vention may and should insert such a provis- ion in the Constitution. As far as the power of the Convention to form an ordinance out- side the Constitution is concerned, this will obviate the necessity of any such ordinance. I suppose the resolution will be referred to some one of the standing committees with instructions to report such a clause to be inserted in the Constitution. -J think this is the safest and best way of prAeding. Mr. FOSTER. I submit whether this reso- lution had not better lie over until the other resolution on the same subject comes up for consideration. I am afraid we shall shingle our journal all over in different spots with these resolutions, without making a good roof any where. The PRESIDENT. The resolution having given rise to debate, lies over under the rule. ELIGIBILITY OF CERTAIN MEMBERS ELECT. Mr. COG G SWELL called up for consider- iition, the resolution of inquiry offered by him yesterday, in reference to the election of per- sons to this Convention who held commis- sions from the United States Government, &c. Mr. HARDING moved to lay the resolution on the tiiblc. The motion was agreed to. CENSUS OF MINNESOTA. Mr. COGGSWELL then caUed for tlie con- sideration of a resolution offered yesterday, for the appointment of a committee to wait upon the Marshal of the Territory to make MINNESOTA C0N\T:NTI0N DEBATES— Saturday, July 18. er certain inquiries in reference to taking the census of the Territory. The resolution was read. ^[r. FOSTER moved to lay the resolution on the table. Mr. COGGSWELL. For my own part I cannot see any reason why the resolution should he over until Monday. If there is any reason, I should like to hear it stated. It seems to me necessary for the Convention to have the census of the Territoiy in order that they may discharge theu* duties in a proper, correct and impartial manner. The Enabling Act makes it the duty of the United States Marshal, as soon as the Constitutional Con- vention shall have passed a resolution declar- ing it to be the wish of the people of the pro- posed State to come into the Union, to imme- diately cause a census to be taken. That resolution has been passed by the Constitu- tional Convention, and a copy of it has been transmitted to the Secretary of the Interior, and also to the United States Marshal. "We need that census to act upon in carving out our State representative, our State senatorial,^ and our representative districts. We cannot adjourn and carry a Constitution home to our constituents, ,\mtil we have that knowledge, or knowledge which will answer the same purpose. It has been suggested by certain members of the Convention that the object of Congress in directing the Marshal to take the census was simply and solely that we might ascer- tain how many representatives we were enti- tled to in Congress, and that we can arrange that matter just exactly as well without the cen- sus as with it. I do not understand it to be so. I do not understand that to be the sole object of Congress. But admit for the sake of the argument that it was ; now according to offi- cial documents which have been placed be- ' fore the people, emanating from the Governor we are entitled, to say the least, to two mem- bers of Congress. If we are entitled to two members, of course it is the duty of this Con- vention to carve out tliose two Congressional districts. Such was the course pm-sued in Wisconsin, Indiana, Alabama, Iowa, Illinois, and by all other Conventions which have as- sembled imder Enabling Acts like om"s. If it is our duty to carve out those districts, and make them a part and parcel of our Consti- tution, it seems to me that we can come to no other conclusion than that it is indispensa- bly necessary for the Convention to ascertain whether the census has been, or is to be tak- en. If it is not to be taken, we want to know it. Why '? That we may resort to tlie next best course to ascertain about what our pop- ulation is. If it is to be taken, we want to kno^ that fact, and what the probability is as to the time when the returns can be present- ed to this body. Now, as an individual, I know that certain steps are being taken by the Marshal. I know that certain individuals have been in this town for the purpose of receiving orders and directions in regard to the discharge of their duties in that respect. I know that individuals havB already gone from this town with instructions to enter \ipon that work about the first of August. It seems to toe not improper that this Convention should call upon the Marshal and ask him, in a respectful manner, what steps he has taken for the purpose of laying that information before us, and what the probabihties of his success. K we do it at all, we ought to do it at once, so that we may proceed to the discharge of our duties. If the census is to be laid before us in three, foiu", or five weeks, it is our duty to take steps to place the Con- vention in a condition to avail themselves of it. If this censiis is not to be taken, let us- proceed at once to form a Constitution and carve out our districts according to the best information we can obtain, and authorize the President of this Convention to issue writs, for the election of whatever officers should be elected, according to the best information we can obtain. Mr. HUDSON. It might after a time, perhaps, be necessary to wait upon the Mar- shal and ascertain at what time the necessary returns can be had, but at present it does not seem to me right and proper to appoint a committee to call upon that officer and ascertain whether he proposes to do his duty. If Congress has provided that he shall do a certain thing at a certain time, we are bound to believe that he will do it, and do it as expeditiously as possible. He cannot prob- ably inform us, at present, how soon it can be effected. Mr. HAYDEN. 1 move that the resolu- 68 MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Monday, July 20. tion be laid on the table and made the special order for Monday next at two o'clock. Mr. FOSTER. I think we had better not be in haste in pressing this matter at this time. The resolution proposes to appoint a committee to await upon the Marshal. Well, sir, the Marshal is a very excellent man I believe, and a good officer. But, sir, this Convention represents the people of Minne- sota, and I am not ready at this time to stoop from the pedestal on which we stand to await on him and ask him if he intends to perform his duty. The terms of the Enabling Act make him an inferior officer to act under the direction of the Secretary of the Interior. The Secretary of the Convention has notified him that the Convention has decided in favor of the immediate admission of the State into the Union. We have complied with the law, and I think we had better not proceed further at present. At all events there can be no objection to a short postponement. I move that the Convention adjourn until Monday next at 11 o'clock, a. m. The motion was agreed to, and thereupon at fifteen minutes past 12 o'clock, the Con- vention adjourned. SEVENTH DAY. Monday, July 20, 1857. The Convention met at 11 o'clock, a. m. Prayer by the Chaplain, Rev, E. D. Neill. The Journal of Saturday was read and ap- proved. STANDING COMMITTEES. The PRESIDENT, in pursuance of the resolution of Friday last announced the fol- lowing standing committees : On PrearrH)U and Bill of Bights — Messrs. CoGOS- WELL, Watson, Winell, Smith and Messeb. On the Legislative Department — Messrs. North, PcTNAM, Anderson, Aier, Stannahd, Sheldon and FoLsoM. On the Executive Department — Messrs. Aldricb, Vaughn, Haydkn, Morgan and Ode. On JSoundaries — Messrs. Perkins, Putnam, Wil- son, Stannard and Harding. On State Officers other than Executive — Messrs. Billings, Hatden, Kino, Kemp and Cleohorn. On the Judiciary Department — Messrs. Wilson, Oalbbaith, Killings, North, McClurb, Stannard and McCann. On Organization and Government of Cities, and Villages — Messrs. Morgan, Murphy, Eschlie, Mc- Clure, and Hall. On Salaries — Messrs. Kemp, King, Bolles, Dick- ERSON and Watsox. On County and Township Organization — Messrs. Thompson, Russell, Wxnell, Baldwin and Ceder- STAM. On tlie Elective Francliise — Messrs. Cederstam, Wilson, Eschlie, Harding and North. On Finance, Taxation and Public Debt — Messrs. Stannard, Peckham, Holley, Hall and Dicker- son. On Educational Institutions and Interests — Messrs. Messer, Baldwin, Thompson, Gerrish, McClure and Mills. On Banhing and Corporations other than Muni- cipal — Messrs. Colburn, Aldrich, Bates, Bolles, Thompson, Secombe and McClure. On Exemption of Heal and Personal Estate, and the Rights of 31arried Women — Messrs. Smith, Phelps, Peckham, Lyle and Ayer. On the Punishment of Crimes — Messrs. Davis, Duley, Butler, Lowe and Morgan. On Amending and Revising the Constitution — Messrs. Holley, Hanson, Coombs, Hudson and Vaughn. On Internal Improvements — Messrs. Robbins, Hanson, Maxtor, Walker and Perkins. On Impeachments and Removal from Office — Messrs. Messer, Folsom, Lowe and Galbraith. On Public Property and Expenditures — Messrs. Secombe, Phelps, Murphy, Mills and McKune. On Miscellaneous Provisiions — Messrs. Galbraith, McCann, McKune, Davis and Coe. On the Arrangement and Phraseology of tlie Con- stitution — Messrs. McClure, Anderson, Foster, Bates and North. On Schedule — Messrs. Foster, Cogcswell, Hud- son, Robbins and Sheldon. On Printing — Messrs. Foster, Duley and Rus- sell. On Supplies and Expenditures — Messrs. Aldrich, Gerrish, North, Butler and Lyle. On Elections and Credentials — Messrs. Gal- braith, Cleghorn, Coombs, Messer and Walker. On the Militia — Messrs. Mantor, Bartholomew, and Colburn. The PRESIDBifT then proceeded to call the order of business, and under that call the following resolutions laying on the table were taken up for. consideration. The resolution offered on Saturday last, by Mr. Perkins, in reference to incorporating into the Constitution a clause complying with the proviso contained in the fifth section of the Enabling Act. On motion of Mr. GALBRAITH, the res- olution was referred to the committee on MiscoUanenuR Business. MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Monday, July 20. «9 CEXSCS OP THE TEBEITOBY. The next resolution in order was the reso- lution for the appointment of a committee to wait upon the Marshal to make certain ruqui- ries in regard to taking the census. The resolution was read. Mr. FOSTER. I trust that resolution will not be adopted. I do not think it is exactiy the thing for this Convention to appoint a committee to solicit an inferior oflBcer of the government, one who, by the terms of the law, acts under the Secretary of the Interior, and cannot act independently of him, to perform the duties which he is required by law to do. To do so, it strikes me, would be to step beyond our proper bounds. "We should not properly represent the dignity of the people of Minnesota. It will be time enough to call upon him when we ascertain that he is not doing his duty. After sufficient time has elapsed to see whether he is going on to take the census, then we may properly inquire of him how soon we may expect the census returns presented to us. Mr. McCLURE. I move to amend the resolution by striking out all after the word " ascertain " and to insert in lieu thereof the following — "At what time in his judgment, he will be able to complete the taking the census of the Territory of Minnesota." Mr. FOSTER. The adoption of the amend- ment will put the thing in a much better shape than it was before, but still I remain of the opinion that we had better not make the inquiry. That officer, in all probability, would tell us he did not know ; that it was an uncertain matter depending upon the instruc- tions he should receive from his superiors at Washington. I understand he has already answered, in that way, inquiries which have been made by individual members of the Convention. I shall vote for the amendment, and then shall vote against the whole propo- sition. Mr. WILSON. I think, vriih my friend who has just taken his seat, that if we make a call upon the Marshal we shall not know any more about it, after we receive his an- swer than before. This Convention cannot act upon any information it may ascertain in that way. I do not mean to impute any- thing wrong to the Marshal. Every member of the Convention knows that the Marshal himself cannot tell, and if he could, he would not probably be very anxious to give us any information beyond what he is required to give. Every man here who knows the pres- ent state of tilings, knows that we will not receive any reliable information, first, because the Marshal himself does not know, and sec- ond, l^ecause he would not tliink we have any business to make the inquiry of him. When we absolutely know that we cannot get any . information, I do not think it best to make the inquiry. Mr. SECOMBE. I am in favor of the amendment for the reason that it is one of the duties of this Convention to apportion the future State of Minnesota for legislative, judi- cial, and perhaps other purposes. If we can get the census contemplated by the Enabling Act laid before us, it would be the best basis we could have for that apportionment. If we are not to have it, it will become incum- bent on us to take some measures to procure the basis otherwise. It seems to me proper for tliis Convention to ascertain at the earli- est moment whether there is a probability of our having the benefit of the United States census to aid us in our labors. Mr. McCLURE. I cannot conceive how this Convention is to lower its dignity by making this inquiry. Now my amendment proceeds upon the supposition that the Mar- shal intends to do just what he is required by law to do. We have no right, as a Conven- vention, to presume that he intends anything else, and we merely ask him when, in his judgment, the result can be laid before us. So far as the answer we may receive from him is concerned, I do not think we have any right to presvmie that he will give us to un- derstand that it is none of our business. The government officers are gentiemen of the highest respectability, courtesy and kindness, and we shall receive from him a courteous answer. Just so far as he is able to ascer- tain about what time the matter will be com- pleted, he will inform us. As gentlemen have said, it will be absolutely necessary to have some information upon this subject, and I do not know of any better way than to get the judgment of that officer as to the probabilities of his furnishing it. I hope the substitute will be adopted. MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Monday, July 20. Mr. STANNARD. As far ns I am ac- quainted with the individual holding the office of United States Marshal of this Terri- tory, I can vouch for him as a gentleAan in every respect ; but, sir, it seems to me as if this proceeding was all unnecessary. The Enabling Act itself says that the Marshal of the Territory of Minnesota shall proceed to take the census of the Territory under such instructions as shall be given by the Secre- tary of the Interior. It is already too early for us ■ to presume that the Marshal of the Territory has received any instructions from the Secretary of the Interior, inasmuch as any instructions from him must await the decision of this Convention relative to the wish of the people of the Territory to become a State. I see then no reason why we should take this step at present. Mr. COGGSWELL. Being the mover of this resolution, I deem it my duty to say a few words in regard to its propriet}-, and also to come to the rescue of the United .States Marshal to a certain extent. Now I say I do despise this idea of pre-supposing that an United States officer is not a gentleman, and that he would not take delight in furnishing us with such information as may be within his knowledge. The only reasons which have been urged against the passage of this resolu- tion are, first, that we have no right to ask the United States Marshal if he is going to do his duty. It seems to me that this Convention has a perfect right to ask him if he is going to do that which the law requires him to per- form — and especially so under the circum- stances in which we are placed — and that it is nothing more than proper, and only what we owe to ourselves and to our constituents. Perhaps there might be circumstances in which it would be improper for us to inquire whether a certain officer would perform his duty. But circumstances alter cases, and in my judgment, the circumstances in which we are placed at the present time, require that we should ascertain whether he is going to do that which is required of him by the fourth section of the Enabling Act. It would nei- ther lower our dignity, nor do anything wrong to him. The second reason is, that he does not know himself, and therefore he cannot inform us. Perhaps it may be that he docs not know. I do not pretend to say that he does, but I think it can be satisfiictorily shown to members of this Convention that instructions have already been received by him from the Secretary of the Inteiior upon the presump- tion that this Convention would pass a vote affirming that it is the wish of the people of the proposed State of Minnesota to come into the Union as a State. As the Enabling Act does not require the Secretary to wait vmtil such a vote is given, there seems nothing im- proper, on his part, in issuing instructions based upon the supposition that this Conven- vention would pass such a vote. Neither would such a course be anj-thing unusual or out of the ordinary course. Another reason urged against this course is that even though the Marshal had the infor- mation, he would not feel inclined to furnish that information to this body. I do not be- lieve that the Marshal is any such kind of a man. I believe he would furnish it to us as soon as to any other body, and that he would take delight in so doing. I know of no other source to go to for this information. If gen- tlemen will tell me of any other source, I am willing to apply to that. But the Congress of the United States have provided a source, and that source is the United States Marshal. In my judgment, steps are already being taken upon his part for the purpose of accomplish- ing that object ; and if that is so, he will in my judgment, readily and cheerfully inform us. As an individual member, I am desirous of knowing the facts in regard to it, so that I may perform my duties in a manner satisfac- tory to my constituents. I do not ask the passage of the resolution simply because I moved it, but because I believe it is due to this body ; because I be- hove there is nothing improper in it; and because I believe the Marshal liimself would regard it as a pleasure to furnish this Con- vention with all the information which lies in his power. Mr. WILSON. I have the honor to be acquainted with the United States Marshal, and I do not mean to intimate that he will do anytliing which is not in accordance with hi.s duty, nor do I mean to say, nor do I sa3% that he is not a gentleman ; but I will say that a resolution that asks a man if he is going to do his duty, implies that he is not going to do M1^'NES0TA CONVEXTiON DEBATES— Monday, Jlly 20. 71 his duty ; and it is a question I would nev- er answer to any man so long as I were a public officer. It is presumed that every man, and especially every government officer, will do his duty. If, as gentlemen say, it is his duty to take a census immediately, and he has instructions to that effect, he will go on and do his duty. Now when, by resolution, we as a body ask for anything, it should be because the answer to that resolution would enUghten us as a body, or in some way modify our action as a body ; because if it cannot modify our action, we have no right to ask it. If the object be merely individual gratification, let us as individuals, call upon him. Now will our action as a Convention be modified by any answer we may receive? Not at all. Whatever answer may be received, we will take the same course as a body. If we are not going to be influenced by the answer, why ask for anything. It is a 0010*56 we ought not to adopt. "We might as well appoint a committee to obtain papers which are not jiecessary. Again, this United States Marshal, I sup. pose beyond a doubt, beheves that we are no Constitutional Convention, and if we call upon him, he will be likely to treat us accordingly. He will treat us as gentlemen, certainly. If 1 were an officer, believing that a certain set of men assembled together were nothing more than a town meeting, as some have more po- litely termed us, and they should appoint a committee to wait upon me to see if I were going to take a census as such officer, I would •treat them as well as I could, but I should not be likely to inform them what I was going to do. I hope the resolution will not be adopted. The question was taken oa the amendment, and it was not agreed to. The resolution as amended was then disa- greed to. I.IMITATIOX OF DISCUSSIOX. Mr. GALBRAITH by mianimous consent, introduced the following resolution : Besolced, That no member of this Conveution be permitted to speak for a longer time than fifteen minutes, nor more than twice upon any single sub- ject, unless by the unanimous consent of the Con- vention. Mr. WILSON. I would suggest to the gentleman that he should move to amend the hour rule by moving to strike out " one hour," and insert " fifteen minutes." Mr. GALBRAITH. I have no objection to accepting such a substitute. Mr. WILSON. The seventh rule now reads as follows : " Xo member shall speak more than twice on the same question, nor more than one hour at any one time without leave of the Convention, nor more than once until every member who chooses to spealc shall have spoken." I move to strike out the words " one hour," and insert " fifteen minutes." Mr. GALBRAITH. I accept that as a substitute for my motion. Mr. ALDRIGH. I am in favor of inserting " ten minutes " in the place of " fifteen min- utes." As a general thing, I can say all I have to say in ten minutes. I do not know how it may be Mith others, but in order to test the question I move that amendment. Mr. FOSTER. I am not myself in favor of long speeches, and I do not think any one can accuse me of a propensity to inflict them. But at the same time there may be occasions in tliis body when the production of docu- ments, and the making of arguments upon important principles wUl require more than ten minutes, and I am unwilling to see this reform run into the ground in this way. I think a fall from one hour to fifteen minutes is a pretty good descent. It is often said, "/a- cilis decenmis acerni " — the downward road is very easy ; and it would seem so in this case. I think a Constitutional Convention is for de- bate to a certain extent. The privilege of speech may be abused, but I think fifteen minutes is not very long, and it certainly is short enough. Mr. NORTH. I have no doubt that sub- jects will be introduced, upon which we shall want to talk longer tlian ten or fifteen min- utes, and possibly, in the progiess of the Convention, individuals may want an hour. Should such occasions arise, perhaps impor- tant questions might be discussed fi"eely by unanimous consent, or in committee of the Whole. As a general thing I am in favor of very short speeches upon matters of business, and to make long speeches upon every ques- tion which arises in which only a word or two is necessar}-, I do not tliink to be good policy. I am in favor of the ten minute rule. * 72 MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Monday, July 20. Mr. GALBRAITH. Upon aU questions of serious importance I have no doubt the Convention will resolve itself into a com- mittee of the Whole, when there will be latitude of debate, and opportunity for eve- ry member to speak as he desires. But in the Convention proper, I think it is the general opinion of this body that it would be well to have as short speeches as possible, and have them pungent and to the point. It will compel us all to think what we want to say, and to present it in due shape. There is no doubt that irritants fi'om outside sources will be applied to this Convention, and one of the objects of this motion was to prevent us from noticing any of them. The business is our own, and to the work of framing a Constitution we should apply ourselves assid- uously, and with a will. We can form a good Constitution, as we have the material in the Convention, and we have plenty of good pre- cedents by which to guide ourselves. It seems to me that it is well to have a rule con- fining ourselves to short speeches. Every member will know when the subject demands more extended remarks, and then unanimous consent can be given. Mr. WILSON. I am opposed to the whole matter — amendment and all ; but as I sup- posed the resolution would pass I proposed the amendment so that a two-third vote could suspend the rule, which I understand would not be the case of the resolution as originally offered had passed. Those who could speak longest in this Convention are those whom I am most anxious to hear, and who could not speak without giving me some information. Mr. AL|!>RICH. I presume gentlemen here will act courteously towards each other, and if any gentleman desires to speak more than ten minutes, he can have the privilege of do- ing so by unanimous consent. I am willing to extend that courtesy if gentlemen desire it. Mr. WILSON. I suggest that no gentle- man would speak longer than ten minutes, unless he was desirous of doing so. Mr. COGGSWELL. I concur with the gentleman from Winona (Mr. Wii-son) in his views in regard to this matter. I for one am opposed to the whole arrangement. The Con- stitution of the Uniled States guarantees to me the right of speech, and I do not like to have a Republican Convention undertake to deprive me of that right. And not only that, but it seems to me that if a man desu"es to make a speech he should be heard. If I want to make a speech longer than my friend Al- DRiCH does, I should be allowed that privi- lege, and if he wants to make a short speech, I will not insist upon his making a long one. Mr. BILLINGS. I am in favor of freedom of speech, but I also believe in the equality of the rights of men. It was never intended that a certain few should govern the rest of mankind. We meet as equals, to work and not to talk. Most men will condense more thought and argument with a ten minutes speech, if they are compelled to confine them- selves to that space of time, than they would in an hour under the present rule. But I do not consider the length of time so essential as I do another part of the rule, and that is that no member shall speak more than once until all others shall have been heard". Our speeches sometimes remind me of speeches of pettifoggers on the trial of a cause. One counsel states an idea, and the opposite coun- sel wants to reply to the frivolous and irrele- vent matter, and the debate goes off entirely upon points which have nothing to do with the decision of the case. If one member takes a diSerent view from what I do, and he answers my argument, it is not necessary for me to defend my position, but some other gentleman can do it for me. I am in favor of the fifteen minute rule, and of a strict ob- servance of that part of the present rule which provides that members who have once been heard shall remain silent until all others shall have had an opportunity of being heard. Mr. MANTOR. I am opposed to this whole thing. There are questions of grave and vital importance to come before this de- liberative asser^bly, and I am not in favor of regulating the mouths of the members of this Convention by the hands of that clock, but like my friend near me (Mr. Cogoswell) I am in favor of liberty of speech. If a man can make a speech in ten minutes and weigh all matters which arise on these important mat- ters, we can say " well done good and faithful " servant." But there are men of experi- ence in this body, to whose opinions I should bow with deference, and to whom, upon tho important questions which will be discussed here, I should be willing to listen sixty min- MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Monday, July 20. YS utes, and six time sixty if necessary. It is important and necessary that we should have all the light and information possible, upon these questions, and how shall we get them ? By this ten mhiute rule? Certainly not. But gentlemen say they will extend the time, and give ten minutes longer. But we find ourselves involved in this dificulty, after a gentleman has spoken ten minutes he looks at the clock, and then gazes around this delib- erate assembly with an inquiring look, seem- ing to ask " gentlemen are you willing that I * ' should speak ten minutes longer ?' ' It looks to me like the height of folly. I have heard gentlemen here to-day, who can make good speeches, say they would consent to a fifteen minute rule. They might be content to be cut oS, but the Convention might not be satisfied to have them. We should not be too hasty in oiu- deliberations. Conventions which have met heretofore for the simple revision of Constitutions, have had sessions of six months. If it is from the hasty disposition of gentlemen to get home to take care of their crops that they vote for the ten or fifteen minute rule, this Convention might as well adopt the silent rule, and content themselves with merely giving their votes, and then their object would be soon accomplished and they could go home. Mr. NORTH. I suppose it is the right- of every gentleman to make as long speeches as he desires provided he does not infiinge upon the rights of any one else. We have all duties to perform and while some claim the right to speak, others claim the privile^ of acting. Should I claim the right to make a long speech upon some subject in which I felt interested, some gentleman might feel restive imder it, and be anxious to proceed to business. While it is my privilege to express my ideas, they have rights equal to mine. The people want a Constitution made, and expect us to make it, and I believe that if we make short speeches we shall discharge our duties better, as a gen- eral thing, upon most subjects which arise, than we should by making long speeches. When we have reports fi"om committees on important subjects, we may need more time for discussion, and even in such cases vinless we can get more time by a two-third vote, I say cut the debates short, then. K the Con- Tention is satisfied that more time is needed, 10 they will grant it. Some of the vrisest men this country ever boasted of, were men of few words, and they learned to condense their thoughts and ideas into a small compass. Mr. McCLURE. It strikes me that it is a bad role that don't work both ways. Some gentlemen who advocate the passage of this rule, were opposed to a resolution which was discussed to-day, on the ground that it cast the reflection upon the United States Marshal, that he would not do his duty. Now, it seems to me it casts a reflection upon this body to suppose they will trespass upon the patience of this House. I do not know why gentlemen come to the conclusion that any individual will speak longer than necessary. It seems to me that when the Convention becomes wearied with long speeches, that will be the proper time to attend to this matter. Are we to suppose that gentlemen will make speeches when nobody desires to hear? When that time comes, then I shall be ready to vote for such a proposition as this. Mr. HAYDEN. It is an old adage, " lock the stable before the horse is stolen." I think it the best course to have the rule brought down to a reasonable time at once. It certainly can do no one any harm. I should rather prefer twenty minutes, but still I am willing to go with my fifiends for fifteen minutes. Mr. STANNARD. I think there is a mis- taken opinion as to the modus operandi of this resolution. Its object is only to save the time of the Convention itself, but I believe it is customary in all deliberative assemblies to conduct their heavy debates in committe of the Whole ; and there this rule vriU have no operation. The question was taken on the amendment limiting the time to ten minutes, and it was not agreed to. The original motion was then agreed to. On motion of Mr. KING, at 12 o'clock and fifteen minutes, the Convention ad- journed until two o'clock. AFTERNOON SESSION. I The Convention was called to order at 3 o'clock, p. M. CESSCS OF THE TERRITORY. Mr. PERKINS. I understand that it is im- portant that this Convention should have tht 74 MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— MoxNdav, July 20. census of this Territory before they adjourn, and in case the United States Marshal should disregard the commands of this Convention and refuse to recognize it as the Constitutional Convention, it will be necessary for the Con- vention to take some other steps to procure an enumeration of the inhabitants. The cen- sus should be upon the files of the Secretary's office, if the Territorial officers have per- formed their duties. If they have done their duty, I think we need not depend upon the United States Marshal or any body else. I oflfer the following resolution : " Besolved, That a committee of three be appointed to ascertain wLether the several assess- ors in the Territory have filed with the Secretary of the same, lists of the inhabitants of their respective districts, according to section 10, article 9, and chapter 8 of the Revised Statutes ; and if 60, to procure a certified copy of such lists for the use of this Convention." If the assessors have done their duty, a census of the Territory was taken in June, and the returns are on file in the office of the Secretary of State. Mr. DAVIS. It seems to me that the res- olution is a little premature. It takes the ground in the first place that the Marshal of the Territory will not do his duty, and that we must as a matter of necessity look to tliis course, in order to find out the population of the Territory. It seems to me that it would be better to wait until we ascertain that we are to have no census taken by the proper authority, and then it will be time enough to resort to other means to obtain the informa- tion. I object to the resolution. The resolution giving rise to debate, was laid over under the rules. Mr. KING. I ofifer the following resolu- tion: "Besolved, That the committee on Elections be instructed to insert a registry clause requiring all legal voters to have their names registered in the county records of the county in which they live; to receive a certificate of registry stating the date, book, and page containing said registry, and without which no vote will be received wlieu chal- lenged — said clerk to be paid by State reve- nue." The object of my resolution is simply lb incite inquiry in the minds of members as to the best mode of preventing frauds in elec- tiong. As matters now are, we all know that it is difficult to ascertain a man's right to vote where there are so many strangers com- ing and going. There might be an additional provision requiring every man's certificate to be filed in the ward, precinct, or district in which he proposes to vote, or that there be a file of those certificates furnished to the Judges of Election in each precinct. The resolution was laid over under the rules. ONE DAILY SESSION. Mr. COLBURN. I oifer the following : "Besolved, Tliat this Convention hold but one session per day, and that the hour of meeting be 9 o'clock, until otherwise ordered." Mr. FOSTER. Would it not be wise to regulate that matter from day to day as cir- cumstances may require ? I think we had better take no action upon it at the present time. The resolution was laid over under the rules. ORGANIZATION OF THE CONVENTION. Mr. COGGSWELL. If there is no other business before the Convention at this time, I ask unanimous consent to make a brief statement of facts, connected with myself as a member of this Convention, knd the Con- vention itself as a body. (Cries of "leave, leave.") I received a letter this morning from one of my constituents residing in Steele County, stating that a report had been circu- lated in that section of the country-, that the Republican members of this Convention had made an agreement with the Democratic mem- bers, not to attempt to organize until 12 o'clock, M., on the 13tli instant ; that the Re- publican members had violated that contract, and had organized at half past 11 o'clock, in the forenoon ; liad taken forcible possession of the Hall of the House of Representatives, and refused to allow the Democratic members their seats in Convention. The question was asked me whether tliat statement was true. As it is impossible for me to answer him in such a manner tliat all my constituents may know my views, I desire to give here my understanding of the whole transaction from begining to end. And I wish it distinctly understood by every member of the Conven- tion, that whatever remarks I make, I shall make them upon my own responsibility ; and if they do not meet the ooncurrenco of other MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Mont)ay, July 20. gentlemen, I ask that they may be entirely absolved from responsibility. I propose to speak, in the first place, of the arrangement which was made between the Republicans and the Democrats as to the time of the organization of this Convention, and the time when the Republicans came into this building, and in what manner, and for what purpose. Second : I propose to speak "of the rights of the Secretary of the Territory of Minnesota as such when he undertakes to organize a Constitutional Convention under our Enabling Act, and of his rights as a member of this Convention. Third: I propose to speak of the precedents which have come within my knowledge in regard to the right of such an ofBcer to call a body of this kind to order ; and the rights of members holding certificates of election which are fair upon their face, to participate in the temporary organization of such a Convention. First : as to the agreement which was made between the Democratic and Republican members of this body. I arrived in this city late on Saturday night of the 11th inst., and ascertained that a caucus had been held by the Republican members who had reached here earher, at which it was resolved that no attempt should be made to organize this Con- vention on their part, until the Democratic members had been consulted and their wishes made known. I was not at that caucus, and as a matter of course, what transpired there is a matter of hearsay with me. I do know, however, that there was a statement to that efiect, which was reduced to writing and signed by certain Republican members of Ms Convention, and handed to certain Dem- ocratic members with the understanding that they should sign and return the same. And I am justified in saying that instead of that instrument being signed and returned, an- other proposition was returned, which is in these words: " Gexts : — The Democratic members of the Constitutional Convention now present, will be governed as to time and place of meeting of said Convention by the usual rules governing parlia- mentary bodies in the United States. (Signed) M. SHERBURNE, C. L. CHASE, W. A. GORMAN. To Messrs. Balcoxbb and others." Now, sir, if I understand the " usual" hour of meeting of Constitutional bodies of this kind, it varies in different States ; and when this paper was returned to the Republican members who had signed the first proposition, the idea struck them, and not only struck them, but others who heard that answer read, that it would admit of some littie doubt of construction, and that it was not exactiy in accordance with good faith to say the least of it, to withliold the original docimient and re- turn one in its place which could be construed as circumstances might reqviire. After con- sultation with various RepubUcan members of the Convention who were here, it appeared to be the unanimous conclusion that near the hour of 12 o'clock on the morning of the 13th, the Republican members should come into this Hall or this Capitol, not for the purpose of organizing the Convention, but for the pur- pose of preventing the Democratic members from organizing it without ovur knowledge or concurrence. And, sir, here I wish it dis- tinctly understood, that our sole object for so doing was to prevent our being taken by surprise. We believed in guarding well the outposts that the citadel might be safe. I do not know the exact hour when other members came in here, but about the hour of one o'clock on that morning I came into this building, and went into the Council Chamber, where I found a considerable nimiber of Re- pubUcan members sitting upon seats, and talking upon various subjects. We remained there (at least some of us) in an unorganized condition until near daylight, when I left the building for the purpose of obtaining my breakfast. I know nothing of what took place after until I returned, which was about eight o'clock, A. IT., when I found the door of this Hall open and several Republican members here, in an unorganized condition, some talking about one thing and some another. We then, most of us took our seats, and continued in them vmtil about a quarter before twelve o'clock, m. About that time, a portion of the Democratic members came into the Hall in a body. I will not say how many, for the reason that most of them were strangers to me — ^but as soon as they came in Mr. Chase rose in that desk, rapped upon it, and called the Conven- Y6 MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Mondat, July 20. tion to order. About the same time Mr Noktii also stepped into the desk and called the Convention to order ; which one called to order first I will not pretend to say. My judgment is that there were but few seconds differ- ence. What motion was put, I will not pre- tend to say, for the confusion and noise was so great I could not tell, but I heard in an- swer to a certain noise, pr a certain sound which I supposed emanated from the lips of Mr. Chase, a kind of unanimous expression from the Democratic members, in regard to adjournment. As soon as that took place, these Democratic members left the Hall. Now, sir, I wish to ask every member within the sound of my voice, if they did not un- derstand there was a solemn agreement made between the Democratic and Republican mem- bers of this Convention, that there was to be no attempt at organization until 12 o'clock, si., which agreement was consummated about 7 o'clock on Monday morning ? It is unneces- sary perhaps for the members who were here to prove that there was a contract of this kind, but for the benefit of my constituents at home, I will prove it, and prove it not only by a WTiting signed by their leading men, but by their leading organ of this City. First I will produce the writing, which is in these words : July 13, 1857. Besolved, That the Democratic members of the Constitutional Convention in caucus, do hereby affirm the position of the Democratic members last evening, and will concur in the proposition to meet at 12 o'clock, M., this day, the usual hour for the assemblage of parliamentary bodies in the United States. (Signed) M. SHERBURNE, Chairman C. L. CHASE, Secretary. I now propose to introduce another witness, the Pioneer and Democrat, for the purpose of proving conclusively this same fact : "Although 12 o'clock, m., on Monday was the time agreed upon on which the Convention should be called to order — " Admitting that there was an agreement to that effect, and that the time mentioned in that agreement was twelve o'clock — *' yet the Black Republicans took possession of the Hall of the House of Representatives on Sunday night, fifteen hours prior to the time," &c. Now, sir, I have proved conclusively by an instrument of writing under the hands of their leading men, and also by their organ of this city, that this Convention should not be or- ganized until 12 o'clock, m., on Monday, the 13th instant. And now I arraign the Democratic mem- bers, and charge them with being the viola- tors of this agreement, and this charge I will prove, sir. There are three ways, Mr. President, in which a man can prove a fact — first, by the introduction of a witness which he himself has brought upon the stand ; second, by wit- nesses which the opposite party have intro- duced ; and third, by their own admission. I propose first to adopt the latter course, and show from their own organs that they were its violators and not us. My witness is the same paper from which I have already read — the Pioneer and Dem- ocrat. In giving a statement of the proceedings of the Convention of that day, it says, " At " quarter to 12 o'clock, A. i/"., Hon. C. L. " Chase, Secretary of the Territory of Minne- " sota, and Mr. Nobth, of Rice County, simul- " taneously entered the Speaker's desk and " called the Convention to order." I also call upon every Republican member of this Convention to bear me witness, when I say that about seventeen minutes before twelve o'clock, and before any attempt was made on the part of the Republicans to organize, the Democratic members marched into this Hall in a body, and through Mr. Chase, sought to secure the preliminary organization. Sir, such are the facts; I next propose to speak of the right of the Secretary of the Territory, as such, to call this Convention to order. The Organic Act of the Territory of Minnesota, which created the office of Secretary, has defined its powers and prescribed its duties. The thu-d section of the Organic Act, says : " Andhe it further enacted, That there shall be a Secretary of said Territory, who shall reside there- in, and hold his office for four years unless sooner removed by the President of the United States ; and he shall record and preserve all the laws and proceedings of the Legislative Assembly herein- after constituted, and all the acts and proceedings of the Governor in hi^ Executive department ; he shall transmit one copy of the laws and one copy of the Executive proceedings, on or before the first day of December in each year, to the President of the United States, and at the same time two copies of the laws to the Speaker of the House of Repre- MINNESOTA CONTENTION DEBATES— Monday, July 20. sentativesandthe President of the Senate for the j Mr upon its face, had he any right to call use of Congress. And in case of the death, re- j jjjjg Conyention to order. moval or necessary absence of the Governor from A^ain, we find that almost invariably where the Territory the Secretary shall be and he is here- j ^^ Secretary of a Territory has call^ such by authorized and required to execute andperform | ^ ^^ ^^ ^,d,, j^ ^33 bee„ by ^tue of some all the powers and duties of the Governor during such vacancy or necessary absence or until another Governor shall be duly appointed to fill such yut i cancy. I In that section, we find his duties, his | rights and his powers clearly and distinctly j marked out ; but among those powers noth- ing can be found ^ving him authority to or- ganize or call to order a Constitutional Con- i vention. Neither can any such power or j authority be found in any law which has been passed by Congress or the Territorial Legis- ! lature of Minnesota. Hence, I say that the ] Secretary of the Territory, as such, has | no more power, has no more right, has no i more authority to call such a Convention to ■ order, than any individual who may happen ; to be passing along the street. This, sir, in 1 my judgment would settle everytbing con- ! nected with the organization of this Conven- tion. But we imderstand it is claimed that \ he had not only the right to call the Conven- ! tion to order as Secretary of the Territory, but as a member of this Convention. Sir, I recognize most fiilly the right of eve- ry person who has been duly elected, and who has a certificate of his election as a mem- ber, to call this body to order. The right of such a member must be recognized. But, sir, had he any evidence to show that he was a member of this Convention ? Not any at all, sir. He had no certificate of election, and upon .this point the rules and r^ulations of parliamentary practice are well settled. The best authority which I know upon this subject is Cushing's Law and Practice of Legislative Assemblies, which is recognized as the highest parliamentary authority in this country. Upon this subject he says : "These principles are as follows: First, that every person duly returned iS a member, whether legally elected or not, until his election is set aside. Second, that no person who is not duly retwmedis a member, even though legally elected, until his election is established." Mr. Chase at that time, therefore, could have no claim as a member. And I have shown that neither as Secretary of the Terri- tory, nor as an individual who comes here without any certificate as member, which is law which authorized returns to be made to his office, and he being the keeper or custodi- an of these returns, has been suffered to per- form that duty. But vmder Enabling Acts Hke ours, in all the Territories, as far as my knowledge extends, the tmiversal practice and custom has been for some member who has a certificate which is fair upon its fece, to call the Convention to order. So that I say even upon the groimd of precedoit he bad no such anthority. Now, sir, if I understand the position which we at present occupy, it is substantially this : We have met here as delegates, duly elected, with certificates in our possession which are fiiir upon their face. We met at the time ap- pointed by law. We made an agreement with our Democratic brethren, which agree- ment was violated by them in the first in- stance. If we organized before twelve o'clock it was because we were compelled so to do in^^ order to preserve our rights — they having vio- lated the agreement in the first instance by an attempt to organize, of course we had no other alternative left. Then, I say, that as we stand here before the people of Minnesota, we stand justified upon the ground that we have done everything which the terms of our agreement required — have done everything that honor dictated. But, sir, it is insisted that we should not have allowed certain gentlemen from Henne- pin coimty their seats. I tell you, Mr. Pbestoent, we had no alter- native in this matter— we had no ri^t to say I that they should not take their seats in the : first instance and participate in our proceed- j ings up to such time as their seats might be ! contested. They had certificates of election, and we had no right to go behind those cer- tificates, when no one contested their seats and pronounce their election fraudulent and void, simply because some newspaper said they were. If it were true that these gentle- men were not legally and properly elected, why not appear before the Convention at the proper time, and in the proper manner, and make it appear? No attempt of this kind 78 MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— TcESii ay, July 21. Vv'as made, and hence we had no right to say to these gentlemen, "You shall not partici- "pate with us in our proceedings for the rea- " son that your certificates of election were " wrongfully obtained, and the reason why we " know it is because the Pioneer and Demo- " crat says so." Mr. Pkesidext, who ever heard of news- paper rumor being received in courts of jus- tice, or conventional bodies in preference to the official statements of properly constituted officers acting under the sanctions and solem- nities of an oath ? The idea is too preposter- ous to be thought of. Sir, the doctrine of allowing the majority to rule is abandoned, and the war cry now raised is "rule or ruin." If, therefore, we are compelled to go before the people of Minnesota upon this issue, let us go before them stating the facts as they occurred. If we are charged with being rev- olutionists, if we are charged with being fanatics, let us have in our hands a clear statement of these truths. I understand to a certain extent, the Republican sentiment of this Territory, and I know that sentiment demands and wants nothing more than what is right and what is just. I know that the Republicans of this Territory demand of others nothing that is not founded upon prin- ciples of honor and justice. I know that the members of this body have demanded noth- ing that was not justly, legally and honorably due them. Mr. Peesident, no man feels more sensitive than I do, when charged with being violators of the Constitution, and with having no regard for the federal compact which should bind us all together. For one, I say that I stand here to day, having taken the oath to support that instrument, and I intend to car- ry out its provisions so far as lies within my power. Sir, the Republican party acknowl- edge fealty — first, to the God of IJeaven, and second, to the Federal Constitution; and I hurl back the charge which has been made against us as Republicans, of desiring to trample under foot the provisions of that sacred instrument, as totally, knowingly, and wickedly false. Sir, I love the Union of the American States; Ilovc the Federal Constitution. To that instrument wc owe all that we are — all that we hope to be. Under that instrument we have increased from four millions of self- sacrificing, patriotic inhabitants, to thirty mil- lions of proud and prosperous people. Under thatjinstrument we have extended our domains from the Mississippi to the Rocky Mountains, and from the Rocky Mountains to the Pacific Ocean. Under that instrument we have contended successfully with the British Lion and sent him howling across the waters of the sea. And may God grant that when the rays of the last setting sun shall sink back into eternal night, no longer to gladden the face of man, its crimson hue may be reflected back upon those extended Heavens that still cover the United States of America. LIST OF STANDING COMMITTEES. \ On motion of Mr. GALBRAITH— Ordered, That the committee on Printing be instructed to procure the printing of 100 copies of the list of Standing Committees. And then on motion of Mr. KING, at three o'clock and fifteen minutes, the Convention adjourned. EIGHTH DAY. Tuesday, Juiy 21st, 1857. The Convention met at 9 o'clock, a. m. The Journal of yesterday was read and approved. PBEAMBLE AND BILL OF EIGHTS. Mr. COGGSWELL, from the committee on the Preamble and Bill of Rights, made the following report, which was read a first and second time, viz : Preamble. We the people of the State of Min- nesota, grateful to God for our civil and religious liberty and desu-ing to perpetuate its blessings and secure the same to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution : ARTICLE I — DECLARATION OF RIGHTS. Section 1. All men are born equally free and independent, and have certain inherent rights; among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. To secufe these rights, governments are instituted among men deriving their just pow- ers from the consent of the governed. Sec. 2. There shall be neither slavery nor in- voluntary servitude in this State except for tho punishment of crime, whereof the party shall haVo been duly convicted. Sec. 3. Fvery one may freely speak, write and publish his sentiments on all subjects, being respon- sible for tho abuse of such right ; and no laws shall bo passed to restrain or abridge tho liberty of MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Tuesday, July 21. Y9 speech or of the press. In all criminal prosecu- tions or indictments for libel, the truth may be given in evidence : and if it shall appear to the jury that the matter charged as libelous be true, and was published with good motives and for justifi- able ends, the party shall be acquitted ; and the jury shall have the right to determine the law and the fact. Sec. 4. The right of the people peaceably to assemble to consult for the common good and to petiiion the government or any department thereof shall never be abridged. Sec. 5. The right of trial by jury shall remain inviolate ; and shall extend to all cases at law with- out regard to the amount in controversy ; but a jury trial may be waived by the parties in all cases in the manner prescribed by law. Sec. 6. Excessive bail shall not be required ; nor shall excessive fines be imposed ; nor shall cruel and unusual punishments be inflicted. Sec. T. In all criminal prosecutions the accused shall enjoy the right to be heard by himself and counsel ; to demand the nature and cause of the accusation against him ; to meet the witness face to face ; to have compulsory process to compel the attendance of witnesses in his behalf; and in pros- ecutions by indictment or information, to a speedy public trial by an impartial jury of the county or district, wherein the ofience shall have been com- mitted, which county or district shall have been previously ascertained by law. Sec. 8. Xo person shall be held to answer for a criminal offence unless on the presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases of im- peachment or in cases cognizable by Justices of the Peace, or arising in the Army or Navy, or in the militia when in actual service in time of war or public danger ; and no person for the same offence shall be put twice in jeopardy of punish- ment nor shall be compelled in^any criminal case to be a witness against himself. All persons shall, before conviction be bailable by sufficient sureties, except for capital offences when the proof is evi. dent or the presumption great ; and the privilege of the writ of habeas corpus shall not be sus- pended unless when in case of rebellion or inva- sion, the public safety may require. Sbc. 9. Every person is entitled to a certain remedy in the laws for all injiu-iesor wrongs which he may receive in his person, property or charac- ter ; he ought to obtain justice freely and without being obliged to piuxhase it ; completely and with- out denial, promptly and without delay, conform- ably to the laws. Sec. 10. Treason against the State shall con- sist only in levying war against the same or in adhering to its enemies, giving them aid and com- fort. Xo person shall be convicted of treason unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court. Sec. 11. The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures shall not be violated, and no warrant shall issue but upon probable cause supported by oath or afiirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched and the person cr things to be seized. Skc. 12. Xo bill of attainder, ex-post facto law, nor any law impairing the obligation of contracts shall ever be past ; and no conviction shall work corruption of blood or forfeiture of estate. Sbc. 13. X^o private property shall be t^en for public use without just compensation therefor. Sec. 14. All lands within the Sate are declared to be allodial, and feudal tenures are prohibited. Leases and grants of agricultural land for a longer term than fifteen years, in which rent or service of any kind shall be reserved, and all fines and like restraints upon alienation reserved in any grant of land hereafter made, are declared to be void. Skc. 15. Xo distinction shall ever be made by law between resident aliens and citizens in refer- ence to the possession, enjoyment or descent of property. Sec. 16. Xo person shall be imprisoned for debt arising out of or founded upon any contract express or implied. Sec. 17. The right of the debtor to enjoy the necessary comforts of life shall be recognized by wholesome laws, exempting a reasonable amount of property from seizure or sale for the payment of any debt or liability hereafter contracted. Skc. 18. The right of every man to worship God according to the dictates of his own conscience shall never be infringed ; nor shall any man be compelled to attend, erect or support any place of worship, or to maintain any ministry against his consent. X'or shall any control of, or interference with the rights of conscience be permitted, or any preference be given by law to any religious estab- lishment or mode of worship. Xor shall any money be drawn from the Treasury for the benefit of religious societies, or religious or theological seminaries. Sec. 19. Xo religious test or amount of prop- erty shall ever be required as a qualification for any office of public trust under the State. Xo re- ligious test or amount of property shall ever be required as a qualification of any voter at any elec- tion in this State ; nor shall any person be rendered incompetent to give evidence in any court of law or equity in consequence of his opinion upon the subject of religion. Skc. 20. The military shall be in strict subor- dination to the civil power. Sbc. 21. Writs of error shall never be pro- hibited by law. Sec. 22. Xo lottery shall ever be authorized by this State, and the buying and selling of lottery tickets is hereby prohibited. Sec. 2-3. Every law enacted by the Legislature shall embrace but one object, and that shall be expressed in the title. Sec. 24. Any citizen of this State who shall. 80 MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Tuesday, July 21. after the adoption of this Constitution, fight a duel with deadly weapons, or send or accept a challenge to fight a duel with deadly weapons, either within this State or out of it, or who shall act as second, or knowingly aid or assist in any manner those thus oflfending, shall be deprived of holding any office of profit or trust under this State. Sec. 25. The criminal code shall be founded on principles of reformation, and not of vindictive justice. Sec. 26. The people shall have the right to bear arms in defence of themselves and State. Sec. 27. The blessings of a free government can only be maintained by a firm adherence to justice, moderation, temperance, frugality and virtue, and by a frequent recurrence to fundamen- tal principles. All of which is respectfully submitted. AMOS COGGSWELL. GEO. WATSON. T. D. SMITH. B. E. MESSER. PRINTING OF REPORTS. The PRESIDENT suggested that no order had yet been made in reference to printing the reports of the various standing com- mittees. Mr. ALDRIOH. I do not know as it will be necessary to print every report of the com- mittees, but it is important that the report just made should be. I move that the report be laid on the table, and that one hundred copies be printed for the use of the Con- vention. Mr. PERKINS moved to substitute one hundred and fifty copies. Mr. ALDRICH. I accept the amendment. My friend, [Mr. Morgan], suggests two hun- dred copies so that our friends at the other end of the capitol may have the benefit of them, if they desire. Mr, HAYDEN. I move to amend so as to require that two hundred copies of each re- port of the standing committees be printed. Mr. ALDRICH accepted the amendment. The resolution, as thus modified, was agreed to. considbeation of pending resolutions. Under the order of business of the day the following resolutions were taken from the table for consideration : The resolution offered by Mr. PERKINS yesterday for the appointment of a committee to ascertain whether the several assessors of the State have filed with the Secretary of the Territory, lists of the inhabitents of their several districts, &c. Mr. PERKINS. I hope that the resolution will pass, as I desire this Convention to neg- lect no means of bringing before it an authen- tic census of the Territory. The Marshal, Mr. Gere, has informed members that he has received no instructions whatever from the Secretary of the Interior, and that he can give no information as to the time when he can have the census taken. If the assessors of the whole Territory have performed their duties, as the assessors of the southern por- tion have, there was a census placed on the files of the Secretary's office by the first Monday of July. I see no harm, at least, to result from the appointment of this committee to ascertain the fact. Mr. DICKERSON. I think that the cen- sus taken by the assessors is not such as is required for our use. That census merely specifies the number of each family, male and female, and the number of persons subject to military duty. We need sometliing more than that for our purposes. Mr. MORGAN. I think this resolution un- necessary. We have a standing committee on " Schedules," and it is the duty of that committee, as I understand it, to make inqui- ries to ascertain such facts as may enable them to form a correct basis of representation. If it should be necessary to have a resolution of this body to enable them to procure from the Secretary of State this information, the resolution should emanate from that commit- tee. I dislike very much the practice of sending out committees of this body for vari- ous purposes, unless it is absolutely necessary to do so. It is in the power of any iiu'iiibcr, and it is the right of every individual, to ob- tain from the Secretary's office, a copy of any paper which exists there. Until that privilege is refused, we ought not to act as though we thought it necessary to appoint a committee to oblaiii tliat wliich every one has a right to have. Mr. HAYDEN. I move that the resolution be laid on the table. The motion was agreed to, and the resolu- tion was laid on the table. The next resolution tjikcn up, was that offered by Mr. KING yesterday, instructing the committee on elections to insert a registry MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Tuesday, Jclt 21. 81 clause in the Constitution. The resolution was read. Mr. COLBrRN. I move to amend that resolution by striking out the word " insert,'' and insert in lieu thereof the words, " enquire into the expediency of inserting." Mr. KING accepted the amendment. Mr. SECOMBE. It seems to me that ei- ther the gentleman who offered that resolu- tion or myself has a misconception as to the duties of the committee on elections and cre- dentials. That commitee as I understand, is simply a committee on the election and cre- dentials of members of this Convention. If so, it is not the appropriate committee to which to refer the subject matter of the reso- lution. I therefore move that the resolution and the subject matter thereof be referred to the committee on the Elective Franchise. Mr. WILSON. I am opposed to this, as I shall be to all movements of this sort. There is a standing committee now appointed whose duty it is to examine this very matter. This resolution anticipates their actions, and seeks to instruct them in regard to that which it is th&r duty to investigate and report upon to this Convention. I know that nothing dis- courteous towards that committee is intended by the mover of the resolution, because he would not intentionally be discourteous to- wards anybody, yet it savors of liscourtesy to that committee. We should leave the matter alone until we see whether the com- mittee take action upon it. I shaU therefore oppose the resolution, and oppose the refer- ence of it On motion of Mr. HARDING, the resolu- tion was laid upon the table. The next business taken from the Speaker's table, was the following resolution offered by Mr. COLBURN yesterday. "Rtisoltid, That this Convention hold one session per day, and that nine o'clock be the hour of meet- ing until otherwise ordered." Mr. COLBURN. As some objection was made yesterday to this resolution, I will simply state that my object was that members might understand definitely what were to be our regulations as to the time and length of our sessions. Now that the standing com- mittees are appointed, they will require a portion of the day to attend to their duties, as such, and if it shall be determined that 11 we will have but one session per day, and that at nine o'clock, the committees will know what time they can have to devote to their business. I think that will be better than it would be to adjourn from day to day, as we might think circumstances required. The resolution was adopted. PAPERS FOB OFFICEKS OP THE COXTESTIOS. Mr. WILSON by vmanimous consent, intro- duced the following resolution, which was read, considered and agreed to: " Resolved, That the officers of the Convention be entitled to receive newspapers to the same num- ber and under the same rule as members of the ConTention." RECOXSrOEBATIOS. Mr. SECOMBE. I move to reconsider the vote by which the resolution, offered by Mr. McKcxE a day or two since in reference to the proviso in the fifth section of the act of Congress, was referred to the committee on Miscellaneous Provisions. I make the mo- tion so as to have the resolution referred to the committee on Public Property and Ex- penditures. The motion to reconsider prevailed, and then the resolution was then referred to the commit- tee on Pubhc Property and Expenditiu^s. BOOKS FOB MEMBERS Mr. LOWE. I wish to submit a proposition to instruct the Secretary of the Convention tb procure for each member a copy of the Constitution of the United States. I feel the want of it very much myself, and upon con- sideration \vith others, I find they entertain the same view I do upon the subject I make the motion. Mr. WILSON. That proposition stands upon the same basis as the one furnishing pa- pers to the members of the Convention, and as I opposed that, I shall oppose this, and I do hope there wnU be found no member voting for any resolution of this sort If we pro- cure a copy of the Constitution for members, why should we not also procure other books of which they stand in need ; why not pro- cure a copy of Webster's Dictionary, which we need just as much in our labors here, as we do the Constitution. And I have nodoubt some would need Murray's old Grammar — for in my opinion that is the best thing of the kind out yet The whole thing is radically wrong. The people did not send us here to 82 MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Wednesday, Jult 23. buy books at their expense. They supposed we Avould procure them for ourselves if we . needed them. I need indeed a library to con- sult, worth hundreds of dollars, and shall I procure that at the expense of the people of the Territory ? I hope we shall not have a vote here that will show any gi-eat minority even in favor of any such thing. Mr. MORGAN. I have had occasion to make some inquiries in regard to procuring that book here at this time, and I ascertained this morning that an individual sent for some copies about a week ago, and that it would be two weeks yet before they would arrive. If we now instruct the Secretary to procure copies for us, they could not be obtained in time for our use. The question was put on the motion, and it was decided in the negative. On motion of :Mr. NORTH, (at ten o'clock and forty-five minutes) the Convention ad- journed. NINTH DAY. Wednesday, July 22d, 1857. The Convention met at nine o'clock, a. m. Prayer by the Chaplain, Rev. E. D. Nbill. A quorum being present, the Journal of yesterday was read and approved. . stationery fob members. Mr. ALDRICH from the committee on Supplies and Expenditures, reported that the committee had made arrangements with Mr. VoN Hamm to furnish the stationery ordered by this Convention — that is five dollars worth to each member, and such quantity as the Secretary and Reporter shall require. ORGANIZATION OF REPRESENTATIVE BODIES. Mr. FOLSOM offered the following resolu- tion, which giving rise to debate, was laid over under the rules, viz : "Resolved, That a committee of five be ap- pointed, of which the Chairman of the Convention be ex^offido Chohr man, and the remaining members to be chosen by ballot, whose duty it shall be to report to this Convention the proper measures for obviating, in the assembling of any future Convention, the difficulties which have occurred in the organization of this, — who shall indicate proper means by which the organization shall be «firccted, and the manner in which the credentials shall be awthenticated. It shall also be their duty to make similar provisions with regard to all rep- resentative bodies so as to secure their organi- zation in a manner as free as possible from all party bias." PRINTER TO THE CONVENTION. On motion of Mr. GALBRAITH— "Ord(-red, That the election of Printer to this Convention be made the special order for to-day at 10 o'clock." CALL OF THE CONVENTION. Mr. GALBRAITH, at nine o'clock and fifty-five minutes, moved that there be a call of the Convention. The motion was agreed to, and -the roll be- ing called, Messrs. Foster, Hall, Mills, Mur- phy, Perkins, Putnam, Thompson, Walker, and Sheldon, failed to answer to their names. Mr. HAYDEN moved that all further pro- ceedings under the call be dispensed with. The motion was lost and the Sergeant-at- Arms was directed to bring in the absentees. After an interval of thirty minutes — Mr. STANNARD moved that the vote by which the Convention refused to dispense with all further proceedings under the call, be reconsidered. The motion was agreed to, and then all fur- ther proceedings under the call were dispen- sed with. Pending the call Mr. SECOMBE stated that Mr. Walker was sick and unable to be in attendance upon the Convention to-day. Mr. STANNARD, at ten o'clock and thirty minutes, moved that the Convention adjourn, which motion was not agreed to. After a few minutes, during which time no business was transacted — Mr. GALBRAITH moved that there be a call of the House : which motion was agreed to. The roll being called, Messrs. Foster, Murphy, Perkins, Putnam, Thompson, Walk- er, and Sheldon, failed to answer to their names. Mr. STANNARD moved that all further proceedings under the call be dispensed with, which motion was not agi'eed to. The Scrgeant-at-Arms was directed ta bring in the absentees. • After a few nrinutes, during 'which time several absent members appeared — Mr. GALBRAITH moved, at eleven o'clock, to reconsider the vote by which the Convea- MINNESOTA CONTENTION DEBATES— Wednesday, Jcly 22. 83 tion refused to suspend further proceedings under the call. The motion was agreed to, and then all further proceedings under the call were dis- pensed with. EtECTIOX OF PR1>-TER. On motion of Mr. GALBRAITH the Con- vention proceeded to the election of a Printer to the Convention, and the roU being called, there were 55 votes, all of wliich were cast for Messrs. Owess & Moore of St. Paul; whereupon they were declared duly elected printers to the Convention. ORGASIZATIOS OF EXECUTIVE DEPARTJIEXT. Mr. ALDRICH, from the committtee on the Executive Department, made the follow- ing report which was read a first and second time and laid upon the table to be printed, viz: Sectiox 1. The executive power shall be vested in a Governor who shall hold his otlice for two years. A Lieutenant-Governor shall be elected at the same time, and for the same term. Sec. 2. Xo person except a citizen of the Uni- ted States, shall be eligible to the office of Gover- nor, nor shall any person be eligible to that office who has not attained the age of thirty years, and who shall not have been one year next preceding his election, a resident within the State, or resi- dent at the time of the adoption of this Constitu- tion. Sec. 3. The Governor and Lieutenant Gover- nor shall be elected by the qualified voters of the State at the times and places of choosing members of the Legislature. The persons respectively hav- ing the highest number of votes for Governor and Lietenant-Governor, shall be elected ; but in case two or more shall have an equal and the highest number of votes for Governor or Lieutenant-Gov- ernor, the two Houses of the Legislature at its next annual session, shall forthwith, by joint bal- lot; choose one of the said persons so having an equal and the highest number of votes for Gover- nor or Lieutenant-Governor. Sec. 4. The Governor shall be Commander-in- Chief of the military and naval forces of the State. He shall have power to convene the Legislature on extraordinary occasions ; and in case of invasion or danger from the prevalence of contagious disease at the seat of Government, he may convene them at any other suitable place within the State. He shall communicate by message to the Legislature at every session the condition of the State, and recommend such matters to them as he shall judge expedient. He shall transact all necessary business with the officers of Government, civil and military. He shall expedite all such measures as may be resolved upon by the Legislature, and shall take care that the laws are faithfully executed. He shall at stated times receive for his services a compensation to be established by law, which shall neither be increased nor diminished after his elec- tion and during his continuance in office. Sec. 5. The Governor shall have power to grant reprieves, commutations and pardons after conviction, for all offences, except treason and cases of impeachmentL upon such conditions, and with such restrictions and limitations as he may think proper, subject to such regulations as may be provided by law relative to the manner of ap- plying for pardons. Upon conviction for treason, he shall have power to suspend the execution of the sentence until the case shall be reported to the Legislature at its next meeting, when the Legis- lature shall either pardon or commute the sen- tence, direct the execution of the sentence, or grant a further reprieve. He shall annually com- municate to the Legislature each ca.se of reprieve, commutation or pardon granted ; stating the name of the convict, the crime of which he was convic- ted, the sentence and its date, and the dates of the commutation, pardon or reprieve, with his rea- son for granting the same. Sec. 6. In case of the impeachment of the Gov- ernor, or his removal from office, death, inability to discharge the powers and duties of the said of- fice, resignation or absence from the State, the powers and duties of the ofiice shall devolve upon the Lieutenant-Governor for the residue of the term, or until the disability shall cease. But when the Governor shall, with the consent of the Legis- lature, be out of the State in time of War, at the head of a military force thereof, he shall continue Commander-in-Chief of all the military force of the State. Sec 7. The Lieutenant-Governor shall possess the same qualifications of eligibiUty for ofiice as the Governor. He shall be President of the Senate, but shall only have a casting vote therein. If during a vacancy of the office of Governor, the Lieuten- ant-Governor shall be impeached, displaced, re- sign, die, or become incapable of performing the duties of his office, or be absent from the State, the President of the Senate shall act as Governor until the vacancy be filled, or the disability shall cease. Sec S. The Lieutenant-Governor shall, while acting as such, receive a compensation which shall be fixed by law, and which shall not be increased or diminished during his continuance in office. Sec. 9. Every bill which shall have passed the Senate and the House of Representatives, shall, before it becomes a law, be presented to the Gov- ernor ; if he approve, he shall sign it ; but if not, he shall return it with his objections to that House in which it shall have originated, who shall enter the objections at large on their journal, and pro- ceed to reconsider it. If after such reconsidera- tion, two thirds of the members present shall agree to pass the bill, it shall be sent, together 84 MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Thursday, Jult 23. with the objections, to the other House, by which it shall likewise be considered, and if approved by two-thirds of all the members present, it shall become a law, notwitlistanding the objections of the Governor. But in all such cases the votes of both Houses shall be determined by yeas and nays, and the names of the members voting for and against the bill, shall be entered on the journal of each House respectively. If any bill shall not be returned by the Governor within three da\'s (Sun- days excepted) after it shall have been presented to him, the same shall be u law, in like manner as if he had signed it, unless the Legislature shall, by their adjournment, prevent the return ; in which case it shall not be a law. And then on motion of Mr. GALBRATTH, (at eleven o'clock and fifteen minutes) the Convention adjourned. TENTH DAY. Thcbsday, July 23, 1857. The Convention met at nine o'clock, a. m The Journal of yesterday was read and approved. REPORT OF COMMITTEE. Mr. SECOMBE, from the committee on Public Property and Expenditures, made the following partial report, which was read a first and second time, and laid upon the table to be printed, viz : The committee on Public Property and Expendi- tures, to whom was referrea a resolution in re- lation to the propositions of Congress contain- ed in the fifth section of the Enabling Act, and the subject matter thereof, have given their consideration to the same, and beg leave to re- port the accompanying dralt. of an article on the said subject ; and ask leave to report at a future time on the other matters properly coming be- fore them. PHOPOSITIOXS OF COXGRESS. The propositions contained in the fifth section of the Act of Congress, entitled "An Act to author- ise the people of the Territory of Minnesota to form a Constitution and State Government, pre- paratory to their admission into the Union on an equal footing with the original States," and each of the same, are hereby freely accepted, ratified and confirmed : and it is hereby ordained, irrevo- cably without the consent of the United States, that the State of Minnesota shall never interfere with the primary disposal of the soil within the name by the United States, or with any regulations Congress may find necessary for securing the title in said soil to bona fide purchasers thereof; and that no tax shall be imposed on lands belonging to the United States ; and that in no case shall non- resident proprietors be taxed higher than resi- dantf. ORGANIZATION OF REPRESENTATIVE BODIES. Under the order of business, the resolution offered by Mr. FOLSOM yest rday in refer- ence to the mode of organizing representative bodies, was taken up and reported to the Con- vention. Mr. WILSON. Will not the subject mat- ter of that resolution come directly and natu- ally before the committee on Amending and Revising the Constitution? I think it will, and that it includes a very great part of their duty. To adopt the resolution would be to take awfiy the duties of a standing committee and give them to a select one. I am opposed to that, and especially as it takes all their duties away. Mr. COLBURN. I agree fully with the gentlemen from Winona. I therefore move that the resolution, and the subject matter thereof, be referred to the committee on Amending and Revising the Constitution. The motion was agreed to. Mr. GALBRAITH. In order that the committees may have time to work, I move that the Convention now adjourn. Mr. SECOMBE. I would inquire if the report of the committee on the Preamble and Bill of Rights has been printed. The PRESIDENT. The chair is informed that it has been, and will be here in a few minutes. Mr. GALBRAITH. It wiU be impossible to act upon it to day, even if it is printed . We shall need time for examining it outside of the Convention, before we proceed to act upon it. I think we had better adjourn. The motion to adjourn was not agreed to. LEGISLATIVE DEPART.MENT. Mr. NORTH, from the committee on the Legislative Department, made the following report, which was read a first and second time and laid upon the table to be printed, viz : The committee on the Legislative Department beg leave to report the following article for incorpo- ration into the Constitution : Sec. 1. The legislative power of this State shall be vested in a Senate and House of Representa- tives, which shall be designated as the Legislature of the Stale of Minnesota. Sec. 2. The Senate shall consist of not less than twenty-four, nor more than thirty-two members The House of Representatives shall consist of not less than sixty-four, nor Inore than one hundred members. , Sec. 3. In the year one thousand eight hundred •nd sixty-five, and every tenth year thereafter, »■ MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Thcrsdat, July 23. 85 enumeration of all the inhabitants of this State shall be made ij such manner as shall be directed by law ; and in the year one thousand eight hun- dred and sixtv, and everj- tenth year thereafter, the census taken by the authority of the Govern- ment of the United States, shall be adopted by the Legislature as the enumeration of this State; and at the first regular session of the Legislature, holden after the returns of each census herein pro- vided for are made, the several districts for the election of senators and representatives shall be established and apportioned by law according to the number of inhabitants. Sec. 4. The members of the House of Repre- sentatives shall be chosen annually, one from each representative district, on the Tuesday succeeding the first Monday of October, by the qualified elec- tors of the several districts ; such districts to be bounded by county, precincts, town or ward lines, to consist of contiguous territory, and to be in as compact a form as practicable. Sec. 5. The senators shall also be chosen by single districts of convenient contiguous territory at the same time the members of the House of Representatives are required to be chosen, and in the same manner, and no representative district shall be divided in the formation of a senate dis- trict. The senate districts shall be numbered m regular series, and the senators chosen by the dis- tricts designated by odd numbers shall go out of office at the expiration of the first year, and the senators chosen by the districts designated by even numbers, shall go out of office at the expiration of the second year ; and thereafter the senators shall be chosen for the term of two years, except that there shall be an entire new election of all the sen- ators at the election next succeeding each new apportionment provided for in the third section of this article. Sec. 6. The first session of the Legislature af- ter the adoption of this constitution, and each ses- sion immediately succeeding the return of the census provided for in this article, shall not ex- tend beyond the term of ninety days. No other re- gular session shall extend beyond the term of sixty days, nor any special session beyond the term of forty days. The Legislature shall meet at the seat of government on the first Wednesday in January of each year, and not oftener unless con- vened by the Governor. Sec. 7. Xo person shall be eligible to the Legis- lature who shall not be a citizen of the United States, who shall not have resided within the state one year next preceding his election, or who shall not be a qualified elector in the district which he may be chosen to represent. Sec. 8. Each House shall be the judge of the elections, returns and qualifications of its own members, and a majority of each shall constitute a quorum to do business, but a smaller number mav adjourn from daj to day, and maj compel the at- tendance of absent members in such manner and under such penalties as each House may provide. Sec. y. Each House may determine the rules of its own proceedings, punish for contempt or dis- orderly behavior, and with the concurrence of two thirds of all the members elected, expel a member; but.no member shall be expelled a second time for the s.^me cause. Sec. 10. Each House shall choose its own offi- cers, and the Senate shall choose a temporary President when the Lieutenant Governor shall not attend as President, or shall act as Governor. Sec. 11. Each House shall keep a Journal of its proceedings, and shall publish the same, except such parts as require secrecy. The doors of each House shall be kept open, except when the public welfare requires secrecy. Neither House shall, without the consent of the other, adjourn for more than three days. Sec. 12. Xo member of the Legislature shall, during the term for which he was elected, be ap- pointed or elected to any civil office in the State, which shall have been created, or the emoluments of which shall have been increased during the term for which he was elected. Sec. 13. Xo person being a jnember of Con- gress, or holding any military or civU office under the United States, (postmasters receiving a com- pensation of not over five hundred dollars per annum excepted,) shall be elligible to a iseat in the Legislature: and if any person shall, after his election as a member of the Legislature, be elected to Congress, or be appointed to any office, civil or military, under the Government of the United States, (the office of postmaster at a compensation of not over five hundred dollars per annum ex- cepted,) his acceptance thereof shall vacate his seat. Sec. 14. Xo member of the Legislature or oth- er State officer shall be interested, either directly or indirectly, in any contract authorized by the Legislature during his term of office. Xor shall the Legislature grant any extra compensation to any public officer, agent, servant or contractor, after the services shall have been rendered or the contract entered into. Xor shall the compensation of any public officer be increased or diminished during his term of office. Sec. 15. Members of the Legislature shall in all cases, except treason, felony, and breach of the peace, be privileged from arrest ; nor shall they be subject to any civil process during the session of the Legislature, nor for fifteen days next before the commencement and after the termination of each session. Sec. 16. Xo member of the Legislature shall be liable in any civil action or criminal prosecu- tion whatever for words spoken in debate. Skc. 17. The Governor shall issue writs of election to fill such vacancies as may occur in either House of the Legislature. Sec. 18. The style of the laws of the State 86 mNNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Thursday, July 23. shall be, "Be it enacted by the Legislature of the State of Minnesota;" and no law shall be enacted except by bill. Sec. 19. Bills may originate in either House of the Legislature, and a bill passed by one House may be amended or rejected by the other ; except that bills for raising revenue shall originate in. the House of Representatives. Sec. 20. No private not local oill, which may be passed by the Legislature, shall embrace more than one subject, and that, shall be expressed in the title. Sec. 21. No law shall be revised, altered or amended by reference to its title only ; but the act revised, and the section or sections of the act altered or amended shall be re-enacted and pub- lished at length. Sec. 22. A majority of all the members elected to each House shall be necessary to pass every bill or joint resolution, and all bills and joint resolu- tions shall be signed by the presiding officers of the respective Houses. Sec. 23. Every bill and joint resolution except of adjournment, passed by the Legislature, shall be presented to the Governor before it becomes a law. If he approve he shall sign it ; but if not he shall return it with his objections to the House in which it originated, which shall enter the objec- tions at large upon its Journal, and reconsider it. On such reconsideration, if two thirds of the mem- bers elected agree to pass the bill it shall be sent with the objections to the other House, by which it shall be reconsidered. If approved by two-thirds of the members of that House it shall become a law. In such case the vote of both Houses shall be deter- mined by the yeas and nays, and the names of the members voting for and against the bill shall be entered on the Journals of each House respec- tively. If any bill be not returned by the Gover- nor within three days, (Sundays excepted,) after it has been presented to him, the same shall become a law in like manner as if he had signed it, unless the Legislature by their adjournment prevent its return, in which case it shall not become a law. The Governor may approve, sign and file in the office of the secretary of state within three daj's after the adjournment of the Legislature, any act passed during the last three days of the session and the same shall become a law. Sec. 24. The yeas and nays of the members of either House on any question shall at the request of one sixth of those present be entered on the Jour- nal; and any member of either House shall have the Tight to protest and to have his protest with his reasons for dissent entered upon the Journal. Sec. 25. Every Statute shall be a public law, unless otherwise declared in the Statute itself. Sec. 20. In all elections to be made by the Le- gislature the members thereof shall vote viva voce and their votes shall be entered on the Journal. Skc. 27. Each member of the Legislature shall receive for his services three dollars for each day's attendance during the session, and ten cents for every mile he shall travel in going to and return- ing from the place of the meeting of the Legisla- ture on the most usual route. Sec. 23. The Legislature may confer upon the boards of supervisors or boards of commissioners of the several counties of the State and upon the corporations of towns and cities. such powers of a local, legislative, and administrative character, as they shall from time to time prescribe. Sec. 29. The Legislature shall establish but one system of town and county government, which shall be as nearly uniform as practicable. Sec. 30. The Legislature shall never author- ize any lottery, nor allow the sale of lotterj' tickets. Sec. 31. The Legislature shall not establish a State Paper. Every newspaper in the State which shall publish all the general Laws of a session within forty days of their passage shall be entitled to receive a sum not exceeding fifteen dollars therefor. Sec. 32. The Legislature may submit to the people any act for their ratification or rejection, and such act so submitted shall, if approved by a majority of the legal voters at the appointed elec- tion, become a law. Sec. 33. The Legislature shall direct by law in what manner and in what courts suits may be brought against the State. Sec. 3i. Members of the Legislature and all officers executive and judicial, except such inferior officers as may be by law exempted, shall, before they enter upon the duties of their respective offi- ces, take and subscribe an oath or affirmation to support the Constitution of the United States and the Constitution of the State of Minnesota, and faithfully to discharge the duties of their respec- tive offices to the best of their abilitj-. Sec. 35. The Legislature shall determine what persons shall constitute the Militia of the State, and may provide for organizing and disciplining the same in such manner as shall be prescribed by law. Sec. 36. The Legislature may contract debts to meet casual deficits or failures in the revenue, but such debts direct or contingent, singly or in the aggregate, shall not at any time exceed five hun- dred thousand dollars; and the moneys arising from loans creating .such debts shall be applied to the purposes for which they were obtained, or to pay such debts ; Provided that the State may con- tract debts to repel invasion, suppress insurrection, or if hostilities are threatened, provide for the public defense. Sec. 37. The Legislature shall provide for the speedy publication of all statute laws of a public nature and of such judicial decisions as it may deem expedient. All laws and judicial decisions shall be free for publicalion bj' any person. And then on motion of Mr. NORTH, at ten o'clock and 30 minutes, the Convention adjourned. MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Fbiday, July 24. sr ELE^TENTH DAY. Friday, July 24, 1857. The Conrention met at 9 o'clock, a. m. Pmyer by the Chaplain, Rev. E. D. Neill. The Journal of yesterday was read and ap- proved. PETITIOX. Mr. MANTOR presented the petition of L. H. BoxD and nineteen others, citizens of Dodge County, praying that, in framing that | portion of the Constitution relative to the ; Sabbath, the liberty and rights of conscience ! of the citizens may be secured, ic, which ; was referred to the committee on the Pream- i ble and Bill of Rights. KEPORTS OF CCMMITTEES. Mr. COLBURN from the committee on Banking and Corporations otlier than Muni- cipal, submitted the following report which was read a first and second time, and laid on the table to be printed, viz : Sectiox 1. Corporations for Banking.purposes, with the necessary powers and privileges may be formed under the g-meral laws, but shall not be created by special enactment. Sec 2. If a general banking law shall be en- acted, it shall provide for the registry and coun- tersigning, by an oflScer of State, of all bills or paper credit, designed to circulate as money, and require security to the full amount thereof, to be deposited with the State Treasurer, in United States Stocks, or in interest paying stocks of States in good credit and standing, to be rated at ten per cent, below their average value in the city of New York, for the thirty days nextpreceeding their de- posit ; and in case of a depreciation of any portion of such stocks, to the amount of ten per cent, on the dollar, the bank or banks owning said stocks, i shall be required to make up such deficiency by ! depositing additional stocks ; and said law shall i also provide for the recording of the names of all stockholders in such corporations, the amount of stock held by each, the time of transfer, and to whom. ^ Sec. 3. Xo law shall be passed sanctioning in any manner, directly or indirectly, the suspension of specie payments, by any corporation issuing bank notes of any description. Sec. 4r. The stockholders in every corporation or association for banking purposes, issuing any kind tf paper credits to circulate as money, shall be individually responsible for its debts and lia- bilities of every kind. Sec. 5. In all cases of the insolvency of any bank or banking association, the bill-holders there- of, shall be entitled to preference in payment, over ail other creditors of such bank or association. Sec 6. Corporations for purposes other than banking may be formed by general laws ; bvit shall not be created by special act, except for municipal purposes, and in cases where in the judgement of the Legislature the object of the corporation can- not be obtained under general laws. All general laws, or special acts passed in pursuance of this section, may be altered from time to time, or re- pealed. Skc. 7. Dues from corporations other than banking shall be secured by such individual lia- bility of the corporators, and other means as may be prescribed by law. Sec. 8. The State shall not be a stockholder in any banking, or other corporation ; nor shall the credit of the State be given or loaned in aid of any person, association, or corporation. Sec 9. The term corporations, as used in this article, shall be construed to include all associa- tions and joint stock companies, having any of the powers or privileges of corporations, not possessed by individuals or partnerships. And all corpora- tions shall have the right to sue, Snd shall be sub- ject to be sued in aU the courts, in like cases as natural persons. Mr. DAVIS firom the committee on Pun- ishment of Crimes, made the following report, which was read, a first and second time, and laid on the table to be printed, viz : Report of the committee to whom was referred that portion of the Constitution relating to the Punishment of Crimes. PUXISHMEXT OP CRIMES. Skctiox 1. No person shall be held to answer for a capital or infamous crime, unless on a pre- sentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases of impeachment, or in cases cognizable by a justice of the peace, or in cases arising in the army or navy, or in the militia, when in actual ser- vice, in the time of war or public danger. The Legislature shall provide by law a suitable and im- partial mode of selecting juries, and their usual number and unanimity, in indictments and con- victions, shall be held indispensable. Sec. 2. In all criminal .prosecutions, the party accused shall enjoy the right of a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and County wherein the crime shall have been committed, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the ac- cusation ; to be confronted with the witnesses against him ; to have compulsory process for se- curing the attendence of witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his de- fense. Sec 3. Sanguinary laws shall not be passed ; excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed; cruel and unusual punishments shall not be inflicted, and all penalties shall be propor- tioned to the nature of the offence. Sec 4. All persons, before conviction, shall be bailable, except for capital offences where the proot is evident, or the presumption great. 88 MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Friday, July 24. Sec. 5. The privilege to the writ of liaheas cor- pus shall in no ciise be suspended in this State un- less when, in ease of rebellion or invasion, the public safety may require it. Sec. 6. No per.son arrested or confined in jail shall be treated with cruelty or unnecessary rigor. Sec. 7. Treason against this State consists only in levying war against it, adhering to its enemies and giving them aid and comfort. No person shall be convicted of treason, unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or confes- sion in open court. Sec. 8. No person shall be subject to corporal punishment iinier military law, except such as are emploj'ed in the army or navy, or in the military when in actual service in time of war or public danger. Sec. 9. No person for the same offence shall be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb ; nor shall he be compelled in any criminal case to bear witness against himself. Sec. 10. In all criminal cases whatever, the jury shall have a right to determine the law and the facts. Sec. 11. The Legislature may authorize trial by jury of a less number than twelve men in the inferior courts of this State. Sec. 12. The penal code shall be founded on the principles of reformation, and not of vindic- tive justice. Mr. PERKINS, from the committee on Boundaries, made the following report, which was read a first and second time and laid on the table to be printed, viz : The committee on Boundaries beg leave to re- port the following Article, and recommend its adoption into the Constitution of the State of Minnesota : It is hereby ordained and declared that the State of Minnesota doth consent to and accept of the boundaries prescribed in the Act of Congress en- titled "An Act to enable the people of Minnesota to form a Constitution and State Government pre- paratory to their admission into the Union on an equal footing with the original States. Approved March 3d, 1857." Beginning at the point in the centre of the main channel of the Red River of the North, where the boundary lino between the United States and the British Possessions crosses the same ; thence up the main channel of said riv- er to that of the Bois des Sioux River ; thence up the main channel of said River to Lake Traverse ; thence up the centre of said lake to the southern extremity thereof; thence in a di- rect line to the head of Big Stone Lake ; thence through its centre to its outlet; thence by a due south line to the north line of the State of Iowa ; thence along the northern boundary of said State to the main channel of the Mississippi River ; thence up the main channel of said river, and fol- lowing the boundary line of the State of Wiscon- sin until the same intersecta the St. Louis River ; thence down the said river to and through Lake Superior on the boundary line of Wise; nsin and Michigan, until it intersects the dividing line be- ! tween the United States and the British posses- T sions ; thence up the Pigeon River, and following ' said dividing line to the place of beginning. OSCAR F. PERKINS, j SAMUEL W PUTNAM, j L. K. STANNARD, I SIMEON HARDING. ! Mr, McCLURE offered the following reso- i lution, which was read, considered, and agreed ' to, viz : Whereas, It has been reported that in the Sev- I enth Council District (which includes Pembina) no election was held for the election of Delegates to this Convention ; and whereas, it is also report- ed that certain persons, some of whom reside in that District, and others in Minneapolis, (without said District,) have obtained certificates of election to this Convention ; therefore, 1 Resolved, That a committee of three be appointed by the President of this Convention, whose duty it shall be to procure from the Secretary of this Territory a certified copy of the returns of said election by the Register of Deeds to this office, and that said committee be further empowered to as- certain the fact whether an election was held in said Seventh Council District on the first Monday of June, eighteen hundred and fifty-seven, for the election of delegates to this Convention ; and that they report to this Convention at as early a day as possible. The PRESIDENT thereupon appointed as such committee, Messrs. McClure, Foster and Stannard. PREAMBLE AND BILL OF RIGHTS. On motion of Mr. SECOMBE, the Conven- tion resolved itself into a committee of the Whole, Mr. Staxnard in the Chair, on the report of the committee to whom was refcrrd that portion of the Constitution relating to the Preamble and Bill of Rights, [ For report see proceedings of the 2 1st of July.] The report was read by clauses, and amendments offered and discussed as follows : "Preamble. We the people of the State of Minnesota, grateful to God for our civil and reli- gious liberty and desiring to perpetuate its bless- ings and secure the same to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitu- tion." Mr. GALBRAITH moved to strike out all between the word "Minnesota" and the word "do." Mr. NORTH. I hope that amendment will not be adopted. I like that part of th» MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Fbidat, Jult 34. aa preamble. I like that recognition of a higher power, in all our Constitutions, as the source from which our civil rights come. I know it is the modern doctrine that there is no higher law than an assemblage of men who meet to make laws for the people. But I think a moment's reflection will convince any man of the folly of such an idea, and I think, in order to procure a correct idea upon this sub- ject, there should be such a recognition in the preamble of the Constitution itself. Mr. GALBRAITH. I tliink that verbiage in a Constitution is objectionable, and to stuff it with self-evident truths is of no account whatever. I see in this preamble, evidence of the ancient land marks, — a set of words which have no immediate connection with the Constitution. There is no man here but recognizes a Divine Providence, but why put that in this Constitution ; what has it to do with the Constitution ? We were sent here to frame a Constitution for the people, and let us do that and avoid other matters. It is not to be presumed that we do not recognize an overruling Providence. Hence this clause is unnecessary. Mr. HAYDEN. I think that we shoul(% in this preamble, recognize a higher power, and if we refuse to do so, the people we rep- resent will call us to account. I am confi- dent that the people of the Territory recognize a higher power than the law of the land; and the will of God, upon which all just law is based, and his kindness, mercy and good- ness to us, in permitting us to enjoy our civil and religious privileges, should be recog- nized by us in the very commencement of our work. The amendment was not agreed to. Sec. 3. Every person may freely speak, write and publish his sentiments on all subjects, being responsible for the abuse of right ; and no laws shall be passed to restrain or abridge the liberty of speech or of the press. In all criminal prose- cutions or indictments for libel the truth may be given in evidence : and if it shall appear to the jury that the matter charged as libelous be true, and was published with good motives and for jus- tifiable ends, the party shall be acquitted j and the jury shall have the right to determine the law and the fact. Mr. SECOMBE. I move to insert after the word "libel," the words "or slander," and after the word "libelous," the words " or Blanderous." 12 The amendment was adopted. Mr. COLBURN. I move that aU of the section after the word "press" be stricken out. To show the object of my amendment I will state that I think the. bill of rights should be a simple statement of rights, and that we should avoid in it everything of a legislative nature. We have a committee upon the Punishment of Crimes, and the lat- ter part of this section embraces a subject which will properly come under the cogni- zance of that committee. It also seems to partake of the nature of legislation rather than of a declaration of rights. The first part of the section is a simple declaration of rights, while the latter part seems to go far- ther than that. Mr. GALBRAITH. We should be care- ful in forming a Constitution to form it in as simple terms as possible. Fill our Constitu- tion with so much superfluous matter, and it will be more than all the men in the world can do to explain what it means. Here is an endeavor to legislate in the Constitution. Now a Constitution should be a system of abstract principles, — something like the Con- stitution of the United States, — and from those principles should be deduced the proper legislation of the country. Adopt the latter part of this section, and we tie up the future legislation of the country upon this subject. The views of men may change, and our laws may change accordingly. I have never yet come to the conclusion that a written libd should be tolerated in any community. Not because it is an injury done to a person indi- vidually, but because it is a criminal act tending to excite riot and a breach of the peace. It may be true that the greater the truth the greater the Ubel, as declared by the doctrine of the old common law. A man may stick up in the streets obscene carica- tures upon me. They may be true represen- tations, but they may be disgraceful, and may excite riot, and under the clause as it now stands every thing may be done to justify the act This striking out all the old land marks is a dangerous operation at the best. We should consider calmly and wisely before we attempt to do this thing. Men in these days have got to be wiser than what is writ- ten, and the ancient land marks are being torn down. It puts me in mind of thow •80 MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Fbidat, July 24. wise men who last winter made the Dred Scott decision. They had Become wiser than the men who framed the Constitution. Adams and Jefferson and other great men did think the prohibition of slavery Constitutional, but those wise-acres got new light — I sup- pose spiritualism gave it to them — and they decided that those who framed the Constitu- tion knew nothing about it. That is, that the potter is no better than the clay which he fashions — the principle of the quack doc- tor who declares that he knows more of the human system than Heaven which made it. Let us insert in our bill of rights simple ab- stract truths, and let the wisdom of legisla- tion act upon them. " In all criminal prosecutions or indictment " for libel or slander " is the reading of the section as it now stands. Is there a lawyer in Minnesota who ever heard of an indictment for slander — words simply spoken? If so, when and where ? Who ever heard of it in the United States ? " The jury shall have the right to determine "the law and the fact." That is another new fangled notion. Why, the next thing will be to abolish all our Judge's oflBces. What do we elect Judges for if it is not that they may instruct the jury what the law is ? The jury determine the law and fact ! Why, they are not presumed to know the l^w, and they do not pretend to know it. I never •knew a jury who did not have enough to do to determine the facts. I believe the Consti- tution of the United States prohibits any such course of proceeding. It is going too far. We had better abolish the office of Judges at •once. It has been argued that juries have the right to determine the law and the fact in cri i.inal cases. Now suppose they disregard the instructions of the Judge in a criminal case, and they find an innocent person guilty ; or suppose the law declares that such and such an act shall be deemed larceny, and the Judge so expounds the statute to the jury ; is a juror to disregard the instruction in the one case, and may he hop up and declare that is not larceny in the other ? He might shield his course under such a provision as this in the Constitution, if we adopt it. Mr. NORTH. It is a little surprising to me that the gentleman should be opposed to «ny new ideas, and should cling to the past as the only safe course by which to be gov- erned. I believe that the world is growing wise, and that this generation knows more than the past one. If there is new light, it becomes us to avail ourselves of it ; and if there are old errors and wrongs, it becomes us to avoid them. It does not necessarily follo^v that because we find a new thing, we should swaUow it good or bad, but the gen- tleman clings to the old doctrine that the greater the truth the greater the libel, and I must confess that I am surprised that any gentleman in this age should advocate such an idea. It may become necessary for a man to publish, for the good of the people, the crimes committed by certain criminals in the community. Papers may publish them, peo- ple may speak of them in the terms befitting the crimes ; and the criminal turns round and prosecutes for libel. The publisher may say the publication is true, and it is for the inter- est of the people to know the facts. " It "makes no difference," says the criminal, " the gi'eater the truth the greater the libel. "If it is true that I am the consummate " scoundrel you represent me, the greater the k* penalty that shall fall upon you." That is a beautiful system to retain in our Constitu- tion. It seems to me that the principle is perfectly absurd. A year or two ago the Mayor of New York issued a proclamation in reference to the knavery of the mock auction shops of that city, and cautioning the public to be on their guard against them. One of them, a little more impudent than the rest, pitched into the Mayor and prosecuted him* Now upon the principle, " the greater the " truth the greater the libel," the penalty against the Mayor would have been pretty heavy. The greater the criminal is, the greater the penalty he can recover in such a case. As to the jury being judge of the law as well as of the fact, it is a little surprising that the gentleman should regard that as a new idea. It is a very old one, and though there is a difference among lawyers, and among judges upon the propriety of that course, it has been acted upon, and the courts have sustained it for a very long time. If it is a good one, it ought to be retained. The gen- tleman asks what is the use of having judges. The Drcd Scott decision shows that judges MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Fbiday, July 24. 91' I are not infallible — judges are imperfect as well as jurors, — and if we are to have a Jeffries or a Lecompte upon the bench to rule as some corrupt judges have ruled in times past, I hope the jury will have power to decide upon the law as well as the fact, and thereby save the people from the consequence of such corrupt ruling upon the part of judges. I am more williing to trust power in the hands of the people, than I am to one or two indi- viduals. If there is danger of wrong, that danger is less as the power is divided among a greater number. But I like the suggestion of the gentleman at my right, (Mr. Colburn), in regard to leaving this latter clause of the section to be incorporated into that subsequent part of the Constitution which shall treat of crimes and punishments ; and I hope that disposition will be made of it. Mr. BALCOilBE. Both those who have spoken in favor of the retention of the clause as reported by the committee, and those in favor of striking it out, have spoken as though this provision was something new and unus- ual. I find in the Constitutions of Maine, Ohio, Wisconsin, and other States, provis- ions and language similar to this. I do not rise to discuss the propriety of retaining tliis clause in om* Constitution, but simply to dis- abuse the minds of those who might be impressed, by what has been said, with the idea that this provision is new. On the con- trary I believe that nearly one-half of the States of the Union havq, in their bill of rights language very similar to this. Mr. GALBRAITH. Certainly if this pre- vision is to be retained, it ought not to be here. I labor under the difficulty of being some- what old fogyish in my views upon this mat- ter. Such a thing as an indictment for slan- der was never heard of. An indictment for libel is a different tiling. That is a public offence, and no damages are claimed under an indictment. The indictment is for the purpose of punishing a pubUc offence — for the disturbance of the public peace. Dama- ges for a libel are to be recovered in a civil suit. Mr. WILSON. I am in favor of this sec- tion as reported by the committee, but I think it should not be placed In the Bill of Rights, but in another part of the Constitu- tion. I was somewhat astonished that a law- yer, like my friend who has spoken against this clause so eloquently and forcibly, should speak about the common law as a standard which we could not make any better. Were I but to read some of the decisions which have been made under the common law, that law would seem ridiculous to every man here. The doctrine of that law that the greater the crime, the greater the libel, will not bear the test of reason in these days. But where shall we have this proposed pro- vision? In the Constitution, or shall we leave the matter to the Legislature ? Sup- pose the Legislature fails to pass such a pro- vision as this, then we shall be under the common law. I say we should leave no chance for that. As to the amendments inserting " slander " and "slanderous," I have no doubt the Con- vention will, upon looking at the matter more carefully, say they should not be inserted. I would wish to amend in the last line by in- serting after the word "law" the words, "under the direction of the court." Now at- torneys come before a jury and one states the law in one way, and the other in another way. But the court will be impartial, and a jury after hearing his statement of the law by the court, will be governed by it, rather than by the statement of the attorneys. Mr. GALBRAITH. If I thought this the proper time to discuss the right of juries to determine the law, I should offer some further considerations upon it. But I do not. It seems to me that this clause should be strick- en out of the Bill of Rights and should be brought before the Convention at another t"me, and in another form. It ought to be fully discussed, and for the reason that I think it will be stricken out here, and incorpo- rated in another place, I wiU say no more upon it now. Mr. DAVIS. I do not think this matter comes before us from the proper committee. On the first or second day of the Convention there was a select committee appointed to take into consideration the subject of forming permanent committees of this body. That committee, of which, I think, the chairman (Mr. Coggsavell) of the committee on the Bill of Rights was chairman, reported among other thmgs in favor of a committee on Punishment 92 MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Fbiday, July 24. of Crimes. Of that committee I have the honor to be chairman. Now tliis Committee on the Preamble and Bill of Eights, with great modesty, have included in their report nearly everything which would properly come under the consideration of the committee on Punishment of Crimes. Upon the duties and jurisdiction of how many other committees they have trespassed, I do not know. In my opinion the course they have pursued is an insult to the committee of which I am chair- man. I am therefore in favor of striking oiit the provision here, and at the proper time I .vhall move to strike out other provisions of this report, because I think they legitimately belong to the duties of other committees. Mr. WILSON. I deem it proper to say here that the chairman who reported this Preamble and Bill of Rights is not present, and that I do not think it is a very clear case that they have transcended the limits of their duties, because I think that nearly all prece- dent wiU show that the subject matter of this section is within the limits of their duties, and so far as I know, it is incorporated into the Bill of Rights of almost every Constitu- tion I have examined, which has a Bill of Rights. I am not in favor of changing it un- til the chairman who reported it is present, and has an opportunity to speak for himself. Mr. NORTH. It is very common to have a clause similar to this in Constitutions, and yet I think the best place for it is not in the Bill of Rights. I have no idea that the com- mittee had any idea of trespassing upon other committees, for they have precedents for in- serting this provision in this part of the Con- stitution, But I think it better to have it elsewhere, and therefore I am in iavor of striking it out. Mr. BALCOMBE, I differ with the gen- tleman who has just taken his seat. If this clause is to be inserted in the Constitution at aU, this is the proper place. On perusing the various Constitutions of the several States, I find that wherever this clause is inserted at all, it is contained under the head of Bill of Rights. In the Now York Constitution it is contained in these words : " Every citizen may freely speak, write and pub- lish his sentiments ou all subjects, being responsi- ble for the abuse of that right ; and no law shall be passed to restrain or abridge the liberty of speech or of the press. In all criminal prosecutions or indictments for libels, the truth may be given in evidence to the jury, and if it shall appear to the jury, that the matter charged as libellous is true, and was published with good motives and for justi- fiable ends, the party shall be acquitted, and the jury shall have the right to determine the law and the fact." Now it seems to me that this is the proper place for this clause, if it is to be inserted in the Constitution at all. I am decidedly in favor of the clause as reported by the com- mittee. Mr. SECOMBE. I wish to say a word in regard to my amendment, which was adopt- ed, inserting the words " slander " and " slan- derous." Mr. BALCOMBE. I rise to a point of or- der. That amendment has been adopted, and is not now the subject of discussion. The CHAIRMAN. The chair sustains the point of order. Mr. SECOMBE. I would suggest to the Chair that the pending motion is to strike out that part of the section including my amend- ments, and in the course of the discussion the fact .that the amendment was adopted, has been used as an argument in favor of striking out. I propose to confine my re- marks to the clause as it now stands. I find a difference of opinion among men of the legal profession in this body, on this point. The matter might very properly be left as it is now, and let it be acted upon when it is re- ported to the Convention, at a time when all the members of the Convention shall be here. Mr. LOWE. I understand that this clause bears only upon the case of libel, whereas there is a clause in a report of another com- mittee, which will come up hereafter, which is much broader and more comprehensive. I believe there is a class of ideas in the public mind for which the Republican party, and the Anti-Slavery party are being made re- sponsible, and for my part I do not intend to become responsible for any ideas which have no necessary connection with the cause for which this party is formed. I do not choose to accept things because they are new. I shall be found in opposition to this idea of giving the jury power to judge the law and fact in all cases. Mr. GALBRAITH. I do feel that thw MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Fridat, Jclt 24. 9S innovations which are creeping into the laws of the country, are robbing the people. The whole system of our laws, as established by a train of decisions, is being attacked and gradually undermined, and decisions made in times long gone by, by the greatest judges the world ever saw, are now considered as no precedents. Where do you go now for your decisions upon matters of law ? To a set of j young attorneys. Clients are placed at the ; mercy of young attorneys who frequently j have never read of law out of the Territory ! of Minnesota. There is a day coming in this ! Convention, when I hope to be heard at ■ length upon this subject. The people are \ now at the mercy of what is called the code — ! a mass of contradictions which no lawyer can [ fathom. Take that New York code, and the ; decisions upon it in the different districts of \ that State, and in the court of appeals, and decisions in number one of Howard's reports, | are contradicted in number two. You read a j decision from one volume and some snap of a lawyer will get up and read a different decis- ion from another volume. I hope this Con- vention will be cautious how they make any further innovations upon the old and well tried system. Mr. NORTH. I do not suppose the code by which we practice, — adopted from the State of New York — is properly under dis- cussion, but as it has been attacked rather fiercely, I wish to say that that very much abused New York code has become the admiration of the civilized world. It is applauded in England, and the highest enco- miums have been passed upon it there — that code which we were so unfortunate as to adopt some seven years ago. Some of the leading minds, and ablest lawyers of New York were engaged in the preparation of it. Graham, of New York City, one of the ablest lawyers and most expert practitioners, was one of them. It swept away the rubish and fictions of law which had accumulated for centuries, and which were only productive . of expense to clients. The old lawyers of the State, at that time, were mostly opposed to those innovations, and some of them stood out stoutly against it. But no longer ago than last winter, I was conversing with a son of Joshua Spencer, an old lawyer, who was originally opposed to the code. His son informed me that his father was written to by a practitioner in Iowa for his opinion of that code. He replied in a long letter, passing the highest encomiums upon it. 'And thus it has worked itself into the approbation of the best l^al minds in that State. As to the mode in which that code has been administered here by our judges, I have nothing to say. I wiU let the Miimesota judges speak for themselves. Mr. KING. This section is merely a decla- ration of rights, and if we should exlcude it from a place here because it will necessarily find a place in another part of the Constitu- tion, we ought to exclude seven eighths of this report. Examine every section of it, and you will find that nearly all of them would properly be embraced in the reports of other committees more or less. I understand the bill of rights to be merely a declaration of certain rights and privileges which belong to the people, and we base ovu* Constitution upon those rights, and as a consequence we shall embrace more or less of them in every article of that Constitution. I am in favor of letting this section stand as it is reported ; it will not interfere with the reports of other standing committees in the least. Mr. WILSON. One word in answer to my friend fix)m Scott coimty, [Mr. Gav- BRAriH.] I do not claim to be anything else than a young lawyer, nor have I ever prac- ticed law except in the Territory of Minnesota. Pitching into the New York code seems to be the order of the day now, but as it is, it is not necessary to eulo^ze that code. The world is eulogizing it by adopting it, and I hesitate not to say that as a system of prac- tice, it is infinitely beyond any thing e\&r offered to the world before. As to this matter of slander, I aver that no man lives who can take the laws and decis- ions of the State of Pennsylvania, and say what the law of slander is there ; and you cannot get a good lawyer in that State to give you a written opinion upon a case of slander, without his saying that the code is very im- certain, because the decisions are so contra- dictory. Now shall we, in this state of things, submit to such uncertainty here, where there are frequently political animosities 'pervading he hearts of our judges, who ought to be incorruptible and uninfluenced by such fe«l- 94 MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Feiday, July 24. ings ? Shall we put reputation, standing and property all in the hands of one single man? The first Constitution in this book of Con- stitutions, wliich I hold in my hand, has in it such a provision as we contemplate ; and the last has it also, and it rvms through most of them. But we need not to pass it upon the strength of precedent, because it stands upon its own merits, as weU as upon precedent. Every man knows that it is wrong to say that the greater the truth a man enunciates, the greater the libel and the jjunishment. That needs to be modified by circumstances which may be presented to a jury — and that jury of twelve men is the best tribunal to say what amount of punishment shall be inflicted upon a man for what he has said. As to the idea of its being something new, it is entirely without foundation ; because it is found in the oldest Constitution almost that we can find. "The -greater the truth the greater the libel" has never been sanctioned universally, and never has been sanctioned by all the gi'eat legal minds even in New York. Mr. McCLURE. The question is upon striking out all after the word "press" not because it ought not to be inserted in the Constitution, but because this is not the proper place. I am opposed to striking it out, and in favor of leaving it just where it is. The subject of the New York code has been pretty freely discussed by our young friends upon both sides. I am neitheir a young man, nor a young lawyer, having lived more than half a century, and practiced law upwards of twenty years. And I must say that did I desire to live by a world of litiga- tion I should advocate the adoption of the New York code everywhere, and upon all oc- casions, because a very little ingenuity will construe it to mean anything and everything. I can take it and make out a case to a jury which they cannot resist, and get a verdict either way. Now, I have passed the time of life when I care a great deal about fun, and consequently I am in favor of a steady pro- gressive movement. I am in favor of holding individuals responsible for all libelous matter they may publish ; in favor of allowing them to plead the truth of the assertion which they have made, and if they can establish it by le- gal testimony, why let them go hence without delay. If they cannot, let the jury decide upon the law and the fact in reference to the matter. An amendment was suggested that the jury should be the judges of the law under the direction of the court. I shall always be opposed to anything of that kind. It was once decided by a very distinguished judge of Indiana that a juror who disregarded the in- structions of the court, was guilty of perjury. It was subsequently decided by a full bench, that such was not the law, and that a juror might honestly differ from even a judge. I hold that a juror should respect the law as given by a court, yet that they have the right to find a verdict directly contrary to the ruling of the court. If I were a juror and the judge should instruct me contrary to what I considered to be law, I should feel under no obligation to pay any sort of attention to his instructions. In all criminal cases the jury should have a perfect right to decide upon both law and fact. I hope this provision will remain where it is, and as it is. The question was then put upon Mr. Col- bubn's amendment, and it was lost. Mr. WILSON. I now move to amend by inserting after the word "determine" in the last line, the words " the facts and the law "under the direction of the court." My amendment will leave the jury to determine everything. They will not be bound by the court. It becomes the duty of the court to instruct the jury as to what the law is, and the jury then conclude themselves whether the court has properly instructed them or not. The counsel upon one side insists that the law is so and so, while the counsel upon the other side will insist that it is exactly the reverse, but generally the instruction of the judge would be much nearer correct, and more re- liable than the diction of lawyers upon either side. I trust the amendment will Ije adopted. Mr. NORTH. I object to the amendment I think it makes the clause vague and uncer- tain. The object of the section is to make it the right of the jury to decide the law and the fact. Now if it is said that they shall have the right to decide it under the direction of the court, and in a given instance they should decide the law contrary to the instructions of the court, might not this clause as amended be brought up against them to show they did MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Fkidat, Jult 24. 93 not decide the law under the direction of the court ? Mr. GALBRAITH. I would ask what in the world judges are for ? What arc their duties in criminal cases if not to expound the law ? Are they to be set upon the bench to keep order merely, as though they were only presiding over a town meeting? If the jury are to expound the law why not abolish the court, and fall back upon first principles?— restore the old system of decision by battle, and turn the parties out to try which can whip the other. But there is such a thing as law now recog- nized, and if this levelling system is to be adopted, I hope, before I am called upon to vote upon it, that some one will expound to me the office and duties of a judge upon crim- inal trials. What are his fimctions, if we put into the Constitution an unbending rule that the jury shall decide the law and the fact ? He is reduced to nothing and you might as well set upon the bench a block of wood. You deprive the judge of every function that belongs to him by virtus of his office as judge. But you say the judge is to expound the law to the jury, but the jury is not bound to res- pect the law. It is said judges may be cor- rupt. There have been corrupt judges in the world, but have there not also been corrupt, juries ? And is it not a matter of history that the decision of a jury is the most doubtful thing in the world ? One very learned judge did say, that he acknowledged the omni- science of Divine Providence, but there were two things which even Providence never could know, before they happened — one was the decision of a traverse jury. I have as much confidence in the decisions of the people as any man, but I believe in every man's following his own business. I do not believe that a blacksmith can make a watch. I do not like to see a man get above his business. When we look aromid for a judge we endeavor to get one who is legally educated ; who has had practice and experi- ence ; and who is supposed to know all about law. When vre look for a jury we seek for intelligent and honest men. It is the duty of the judge to expound to the jury what the law is, and he is the only fit man to expound the law to twelve men who do not pretend to know what the law is. Who is the better judge of the law in a given case, the judge or the jury ? I hope we shall stop and tlaink before we adopt this levelmg system, rob the court of all its character, and turn it into a town meeting. Take the works of that noble race of legal minds which have run down the stream of time from the first establishment of the com- mon law, to this day; take the works of Blackstone, and Coke, and Sugden, and Mans- field, and others, — books now musty on the shelves, and scarcely ever read, — and they contain an epitome of the wisdom of the world, and are the bulwarks of the fiberty we enjoy to-day. We should thank God that those books are still in existence. Deprive the judges of their functions, and it will be like running a railroad car without a locomo- tive. Tell me, some one, what are to be the functions of a judge under this new system. There always has been a definition of a judge. Webster's dictionary will give it. Blackstone will give it. The history of the world will give it. But you will wipe them all out, and make out another. I should hke to see it put into plain English, so that I may know, before I vote for the clause, what a judge is to be now. Mr. NORTH. I do not see such cause of alarm and fear of a catastrophe, in conse- quence of adopting tliis good old provision, for it has been inserted in many of the Con- stitutions of our States, and it has had a bene- ficial influence. I do not think the rights of the people will be all taken away from them. As wise States and statesmen have adopted this provision, I think, if there were such evils as the gentleman seems to anticipate, we should have been likely to have found them out before this. The gentleman tells us that lawyers and the judiciary are the guardians of the people's rights, and have been ; and he runs back to the time of Coke and Littleton, Blackstone and Mansfield, as though they were the ones above all others who guarded the people's rights, and protected them in the enjoyment thereof. I am glad he referred to Lord Mansfield, for there was, in his time, a a case involving the liberties of man as man. A Coke, a Littleton, and a Blackstone, had decided that a man could be robbed of his liberties, and that the Constitution of England authorized it. All the lawyers, and all the f« MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Feidat, Jclt 24. judges, Mansfield into the bargain, so decided. But one common-sense man said, '* No ! the " Constitution of England sanctions no such " thing." That man studied the law, vindi- cated his principles, fought it from year to year, imtil he compelled Mansfield upon the bench to reverse liis decision, and compelled Blackstone to revise his commentaries, and to declare to the world that slaves cannot breathe in England. I tell you common-sense people sometimes know the law better than judges. It was said by a wise and shrewd man that the use of language was to enable us to conceal our ideas, and many judges adnainister the law as though its object were to defeat the ends of justice. There are little minds upon the bench as well as off it ; and many judges ad- minister the law as though its technicalities were more important to be preserved, than the rights of the people. The gentleman asks what is the use of a judge unless he can rule the jury in regard to the law. With as much propriety he might ask what is the use of witnesses if the jury are to determine the facts. Why, the wit- nesses bring the facts before the jury for their consideration, and the counsel and the judge bring the law before them for consideration. If there is no possible use for a judge unless he can control the jury on subjects of law, we might say, with equal propriety, that there is no use for witnesses unless the jury are bound to believe every witness who is sworn. The counsel will differ in their interpretation of law, and the judge makes his statement before the jury to guide their judgment to a correct decision. But judges are not infalli- ble, as he himself has showai. I do not know as the gentleman, in his encomiums of the judges of England, meant to have us believe that the judges of Minnesota are as infallible. If so, I beg leave to differ with him. I doubt very much whether some of our recently ap- pointed judges are more infallible than some of our juries. Mr. KING. I move that the committee rise. Mr. BALCOMBE. I hope the motion will not prevail. In all probability the Conven- tion will adjourn to-day, imtil Monday, and it seems that we ought to be willing to devote • good part of this day to the consideration of this report in order to bring our Conven- tion to a close at the earliest possible day. If individuals desire to go home upon the boat which leaves at twelve o'clock, they can go, and the rest of us can remain here and work. The motion was lost. Mr. BOLLES. I hope the amendment wiU prevail. If I understand the object of this bill of rights, it is to declare a few funda- mental ideas, which are to be carried out in the body of the Constitution. I am in favor of sticking out the latter part of this section, for the reason that we ought to enunciate but simple principles in the bill of rights and nothing more. We have appointed commit- tees to carry out in detail the programme laid down in the bill of rights, which, in my opin- ion, should be as simple and concise as possi- ble. Hence I shall vote for this amendment. Unless we are cautious, we shall get into deep water, and shall anticipate in this bill of rights, things which properly belong to tb© reports of other committees. I do claim that the committee which made this report, ex- ceeded, not only in this section, but in various other sections, their legitimate sphere of action. I hope in such cases we shall strike the sections out. Mr. BILLINGS. I believe the amendment to insert the words " slander" and " slander- ous " was adopted. If so, I shall now vote against the whole section. It seems to me that in a case of libel the jury are better qual- ified to judge of the law than any one else, but I am opposed to extend that power to the case of slander. Mr. SECOMBE. The amendment to which the gentleman referred was adopted and now forms a part of the section. I offered that amendment supposing that what is technically called slander — that is the spealdng of certain- words — was indictable. Other gentlemen took a different view of it. I find by con- sulting what no gentleman will dispute to be good authority, that I was right. I propose to read a few lines from Wharton's Ameri- can Criminal Law, pages 534, 535, and 536. "An indictment will lie for all words spoken of another which impute to him the commission of some crime punishable by law, such as high trea- son, murder, or other felony (whether by statute or at common law) forgery, perjury, subomatioo of perjury, and other misdemeanorB." MINNESOTA CONTENTION DEBATES— Fbiday, Jcly 24. 97 "An indictment will lie for all words spoken of another which will have the eflfect of excluding him from society, as for instance to charge him with having an infectious disease, such as leprosy, the venereal disease, the itch or the like. But charging him with having had a contagious dis- ease is not actionable, for, as this relates to time past, it is no reason why his society should be avoided at present." "No indictment however will lie for words not reduced to writing, unless they be seditious, blas- phemous, grossly immoral, or uttered to the mag- istrate in the execution of his office, or uttered as a challenge to fight a duel, or with an intention to provoke the other party to send a challenge," Now if that class of cases is indictable, it seems to me it is the very class of cases, of all others, which should have the benefit of the provisions of this article. Mr. BALCOMBE, I have a substitue to offer to the pending amendment, which I think will obviate all this diflBculty. It is to strike out all after the word " acquitted '' and to insert " and in all indictments for Ubel the '•jury having received the direction of the '• court, shall have the right to decide at *' their discretion, the law and the facts." This will procure the direction of the court, and at the same time leave the jury, at their discretion, to decide the law and the facts. I think the amendment covers the whole ground upon which so much debate has been had. • The substitute was adopted. Mr. NORTH. I move to amend the sec- tion by inserting the word "that" before the word "right" where it first occurs. The amendment was adopted. Sec. 5. The right of trial by jury shall remain inviolate ; and shall extend to all cases at law without regard to the amount in controversy ; but a jury trial may be waived by the parties in all cases in the manner prescribed by law. Mr. MORGAN. I move to amend that section by inserting the word " civil " before the word " cases " where it last appears. Mr. BALCOMBE. I approve of the amend- ment. In most of the Constitutions that word " civil " is used in that connection, and there is a propriety in its use. ilr. COLBURN. I hope the amendment will not prevail. I can see no objection to allowing a party in a criminal trial to waive that right. Now I am not one of those who deem it 13 my special duty to follow what is prescribed in some other instnmient. The gentleman fi-om Winona [Mr. Balcombe,'] in eveay instance in which he has spoken in favor of any measure, has based his views upon the fact that some other instrument has contained a provision similar to the one imder conside- ration. While I would pay due regard to all other Constitutions, I am not willing to bind myself to foUow their example in all respects. I am not afraid of adopting some new ideas, if they seem reasonable and proper. I be- lieve we may well make some improve- ments. I do not believe that hvunan wisdom has yet devised an instrument but what may be improved. I can' see no objection to allowing any person in all cases to waive his right of trial by jnry, if he chooses. Mr. MORGAN. I thought my amendment so obviously proper that tliere could be no doubt about it. To grant a criminal the ri^t to choose whether he will be tried by a jury of his vicinage, or by some judge whom he might fancy would try his case better, is a thing which has never yet been done in this country. I suppose that the mere suggestion of the amendment would carry its own pro- priety with it. Mr. COLBURN. The gentleman is mis- taken in regard to the language used in this section. It says trial may be waived by the parties — ^not by one party, but by hoth par- ties. In all cases, both civil and criminal, there are two parties, and if both choose to waive trial by jury, they can do so. It doeg not lie in the person of a criminal alone to say he will waivs such a trial. He must have the consent of the prosecuting attorney. Mr. DAVIS. In the State of Ohio a crim- inal has the right to choose between a jury trial and a trial by court in all cases which are not penitentiary offences. • Mr. PERKINS. I think it eminently prop- er that the amendment should prevail. It is true that in all cases there are two parties. In criminal cases the people are one party, and in all cases of that kind I think a jury trial should be had. It is* true, as has been remarked, that a jury trial cannot be waived, except by the consent of both parties, but it seems to me improper to allow any district attorney to take the responsibility of waiving a jury trial. 9S MINNESOTA CONTENTION DEBATES— Fkiuay, Jlly 24, It is true, as the gentleman, says, that im- provements should be made upon the Consti- tutions Avhich have been made before. It is equally true that no Constitution was ever framed wliich was in itself perfect, and not susceptible of some improvement ; and the questions, in cases like this, arises, whether this is really an improvement. I do not con- sider it as such. I think it is a departure from the principles usually adopted in cases of this kind. Mr. SECOMBE. It is not necessary to go to Ohio, or any other State to find examples. For the last six years we have been living under just such a law as this is. At the present time any criminal arraigned before a magistrate — and there is a very large class of offenses triable before that oflBcer — has a right, of his own accord, and without consul- tation with the prosecution, to waive a trial by jury, and to be tried by the magistrate Our statute provides that the magistrate shall demand of a criminal brought before him, whether he waives a trial by jury, and unless he does expressly waive it, a jm-y is to be summoned. If he expressly chooses to sub- magistrate, the government has no control over mit himself to the trial and judgment of the him. Although I do not consider the reser- vation necessary in this article, I would ob- ject to making a distinction between civil and criminal cases. When we say that the rights of trial by jury shall be preserved, we do not say necessarily, or by unplication that a trial by jury shall not be enforced upon any one. We simi^y say that parties shall be entitled to it as a matter of right. I see no reason why a distinction should be made between the two cases. In civil cases it is not optional with either party to have the tiial by the court, for either party may demand a trial by a jury, l^he proposition, as contained in this article, does not give the criminal the right to choose, but gives it to both par- ties. Mr. MORGAN, Ti-ue that in minor offen- ces, triable before a magistrate, the accused may waive a jury trial at his option, and choose to be tried by the magistrates. But in the higher grade of offenses, to be tried before higher courts, to allow the district attorney and the courLscl for the offenders, by simple agreement, to compel the court to try the criminal, would be something new, imheard of, and highly objectionable. The amendment was not agreed to. Mr. WATSON. The chairman of the committee on the Preamble and Bill of Rights is not present, and as there seems to be a disposition to clip and criticise this report, I move, in order to give the chairman an oppor- tunity to be here, that the committee rise. The motion was agreed to. The committee accordingly rose, and the President having resumed the chair, Mr. Stannard reported that the committee of the Whole had had under consideration the report of the committee on the Preamble and Bill of Rights and had made progi-ess thereon. Mr. NORTH moved to lay the report on the table. Mr. STAN:NARD. I rise to a question of order. I submit that without a motion of the Convention the report goes among the special orders ready to be taken up when we go into committee again. The PRESIDENT. It is usual in such cases, when the committee hav^ not com- pleted its labors, to ask leave to sit again. When leave is granted, the subject matter of consideration lies upon the table as a matter of course, but when leave is not granted the report is properly before the Convention for its disposition. The report was laid on the table. ADJOURNMENT OVER. Mr. LYLE moved that the Convention adjourn until two o'clock, p. m. Mr. NORTH moved to amend by making it two o'clock on Monday. Mr. COLBURN. I deem it my duty to vote against any adjournment over. A largo portion of the members of this Convention live so far from this place that it would be im- possible for them to go home and return with- in the proposed time. If we are to adjourn over, I want it for a sufficient length of time tb allow me to go home also, and that will be a week to say the least. But I am opposed to adjourning over at all. If gentlemen must go home, let them go, but let the rest go on with our business. Mr. PERKINS, I am opposed to idling my time away for a day or two for the pur- pose of accommodating a few gentlemen who live near by, and I do not think it is the wish MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Fkiday, July 24. 93 of a majority of the Convention to adjourn. I hope the motion will not be agi'eed to. Mr. DAVIS. Gentlemen have said that their business at home was suflfering. Mine, too, is suffering, and I am in favor of brining, this Convention to a close as soon as it can be done and done properly. I hope we shall not adjourn. The amendment was lost. The motion to adjourn was then carried, and the Convention adjourned until two o'clock. AFTERNOON SESSION. The Convention met at two o'clock. BEPOET. Mr. SMITH, from the committee on Ex- emption of Real and Personal Estate, and the Rights of Married Women, made the follow- ing report, which was read a first and second time, and laid upon the table to be printed, viz : Eepoet on Exemptions of Real and Personal Es- tate, and the Rights of Married Women. Sec. 1. The personal property of every resi- dent of this State, to consist of such property as shall be designated by law, shall be exempted to the amount of not less than two hundred and fifty (^250) dollars from sale on execution or other final process of any Court issued for the collection of any debt contracted after the adoption of this Con- stitution. Sec. 2. Every homestead owned and occupied by any resident of this State, not exceeding in value the sum of one thousand ($1000) dollars, shall be exempt from forced sale on execution, or any other final process from a Court for any debt contracted after the adoption of this Constitution ; such exemption shall not extend to any mortwafe thereon ; but such mortgage or alienation by the owner thereof, if a married man, shall not be valid without the signature of the wife. Sec. 3. The homestead of a family after the death of the owner, shall be exempt from the pay- ment of his debts in all cases daring the minority of his children. Sec 4. If the owner of a homestead die, leav- ing a widow, but no children, the same shall be exempt, and the income thereof shall accrue to her benefit during the time of her widowhood, unless she be the owner of a homestead in her own right. Sec. o. The real and personal estate of every female, acquired before marriage, and all property to which she may afterwards become entitled, by gift, grant, inheritance or devise, shall be and re- main the estate and property of such female, and may be devised or disposed of only by the con- currence of the husband. ADJOrBN'MEXT OVES. Mr."; SECOMBE. I move that when the Convention adjourn it adjourns to meet on Monday next at ten o'clock, a. a. It is ap- parent that we have a bare quorum present, and I wish to know what course the Conven- tion intends to take for to-morrow, that we may make our calculations accordingly. Mr. BILLINGS. I shall oppose that mo- tion now, and always. Our labors have not been performed, and I, for one, shaU not con- sent to any adjournment beyond what is usual, until they are finished. Nor do I wish to remain here on expense, to let others, whose convenience it may suit, return home. Gen- tlemen say that business requires them to go home. That is the case with all of us. If our business at home is more important than our business here, let us go home and stay there. Dutj' called me here, and duty will keep me here until our .^work is done. If ne- cessity were a'controling argument I should be on my homeward journey too. But my private interests suffer and must suffer if the public good requires my presence here. If some members leave there will be less speeches made, and we shall get on the faster. Mr. PERKINS. I am opposed to adjourn- ing over. If some members see fit to go home, let us who remain, continue to do our business. So far as the plea of necessity is concerned I might as well urge it as any others, but I am willing to devote as much time as is neces- sary to form a constitution, and I do not wish to waste any time here, to allow others to enjoy a trip home. The motion to adjourn over was lost. COMMITTEE OX LEAAT; OF ABSENCE. Mr. COLBURN offered the following reso- lution, which was read, considered and agreed to: " WnEBEAS, It is desirable that the Convention complete the business for which it was assembled at as early a day as possible, and whereas it is de- sirable that as many members as possible shall be present to participate in the transaction of such business, therefore, Besolved, That there be a select committee of three appointed upon "Leave of Absence." PREAMBLE AXD BILL OF BIGHTS. On motion of Mr. HARDD^G, the Con- vention resolved itself into committee of the Whole on the report of the committee upon 100 MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Feidat, July 24. the Preamble and Bill of Eights. (Mr. Col- burn in the Chair. Mr. STANNARD. I rise to a point of order. The report of the committee was this morning, by special action of the Convention, laid upon the table ; therefore it was not in the general orders, and cannot come before the committee of the Whole for consideration. I move that the committee rise for the pur- pose of taking that report from the table. I do not make the motion for purposes of delay, but that we may appear right upon the record. The motion was agreed to. The committee accordingly rose, and the President resumed the Chair of the Conven- tion. Mr. STANNARD. I now move that the report of the committee upon the Preamble and Bill of Rights be taken from the table and refered to the committee of the Whole. The motion was agreed to. On motion of Mr. SECOMBE the Conven- tion then resolved itself into a committee of the Whole (Mr. Colbcrn in the Chair) and re- sumed the consideration of the report on the Preamble and Bill of Rights, commencing with section six, where the committee left off in the morning. The section was read as follows : Sec. 6. Excessive bail shall not be required ; nor shall excessive fines be imposed ; nor shall cruel and unusual punishments be inflicted. Mr. DULEY. I move to strike out that section. There is a special committee ap- pointed to take into consideration the subject matter of this section, and it seems necessary, in order that we may have a report from the committee on Punishment of Crimes, that this section should be stricken out. It would seem as though the committee on Bill of Rights liad reported almost every subject that could possibly come before the committee on Punishment of Crimes. If they may legnti- mately do so, why should the other committee be appointed? I am opposed to one com- mittee encroaching upon the jurisdiction of another. It hope we will strike out this sec- tion and leave the matter to como up upon the report of some other committee, Mr. SECOMBE. I am well aware that there is some clasliing of the reports of the committees, but it will be the province of this committee of the Whole to strike out from one or the other, according to their judgment, so that' there wiU finally be no clashing in the Constitution. The question with us should be, which is the proper place for each subject matter. This sixth section is purely a decla- ration of rights, and it seems peculiarly' ap- propriate that it should be retained where it is. If it should be admitted here, and in our judgment the only proper place for it, then if it should come up again in the report of the committee on Punishment of Crimes, there would be the proper place to strike it out. On the other hand if this is not the proper place for it, we should strike it out here, and retain it in another place. Mr. MESSER. The Chairman of the com- mittee who made this report is absent, and I hope it will not be further considered until he can be present. Some imputations have been cast upon that committee for apparently in- truding upon the jurisdiction of other com- mittees, but I can assure gentlemen that the committee had no intention of interfering in the least. Mr. BALCOMBE. This section properly belongs under the head of Bill of Rights if we adopt such a clause at all. In those Constitutions which do not con- tain a Bill of Rights, this'^clause comes under the jurisdiction of the Judiciary committee, and would be more apt to be put into the re- port of that committee than in any other. Wherever there is a Bill of Rights this section is contained in it, and properly comes under that head. As to the clashmg of reports, it is a matter of minor consequence. Our ob- ject is to frame a constitution, and if various committees report various clauses which may perhaps more properly belong to some other committee, we will, as we take up those re- ports, adopt what we think ought to be adop- ted, and wliich we tliink to be in an appro- priate place, without reference to the fact that they did or did not come from the most appro- priate committee. Mr. DAVIS. I do not wish to stick for -.small points, but it does appear that this sub- ject in the sixth section belongs exclusively to the report of the committee on- the Punish- ment of Crimes. That committee was ap- pointtd for something or it was appointed for nothing. If it was appointed for something. MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— FKiirAf, Jc&y M*^ 401. what was it ? Was it for the purpose of get- [ ting certain members appointed upon unim- portant committees, in order that others might get all the important portions upon other committees ? I do not say but that this sec- tion comes in appropriately here. But that is a matter of after consideration with the com- mittee on Arrangement and Phraseology. . If they should see fit to put it under this head finally, I have no objection, but I do contend that for the present, it belongs to the province of the committee on the Punishment of Crimes, and therefore I hope it will be stricken out here, and retained in the report of that com- mittee. Mr. PERKINS. There seems to be a jeal- ousy between the different committees here, and an apprehension that they have been trespassed upon by the report of the commit- tee on the Preamble and Bill of Rights, and some hard feehng seems to have been engen- dered against that committee for their pre- sumption in thus encroaching. I do not beUeve there was any malicious intention upon the part of anj- one of thai; committee, nor do I believe that they intended to deprive any one of the honor or glory of making reports upon the different subjects committed to them. It seems to me the feeUng results from a misapprehengion of the purport of the BUI of Rights. Its object, as I understand it, is to set forth to the world those fundamen- tal ideas and principles which underlie our Constitution, xind it seems to me that there would be no impropriety even should the Constitution go on and re-affirm those great principles a second time, even in the identical language of the Bill of Rights. I see no objection to such a course. It seems to me that this jealousy is entirely wrong, and that in fact there has been no trespass upon the rights of any committee. Mr. BOLLES. I think the committee, in giving us this report, have gone into details more than was necessary, and more than is usual for committees on the Preamble and Bill of Rights to do. But I should regret exceedingly to believe that tliey designed to* exceed their powers. The section under con- sideration I would regard as eminently proper to be incorporated in the Bill of Rights, whether coming legitimately from that com- mittee or not. It is simple, precise, and expressed in just the language I like. It is the ground work wliich vmderlies and sus- tains a lai^ amoimt of legislation, and if we were to exclude any section upon this page of the report, it should not be that one. If any are to be stricken out, I would prefer to strike out the two following ones, which are but details of the same idea. Mr. D4VIS. I wish it distinctly under- stood that I mean to impute no wrong inten- tion to the committee which made this report.' I merely wished to say, that, in my opinion, they did report what should properly come from the committee on Punishment of Crimes. Mr. BUTLER. I think that committee have done no more than any member of this Convention would have done, had they been members of that committee. They have only followed out precedents which have been set in the formation of other State Con- stitutions. I think they have done their duty and nothing more. Ever since the appoint- ment of the committee on Punishment of Crimes, I have been of the opinion that they had nothing to do, and I felt thankful for being placed upon a committee whose duties were so light. I had myself no idea of reporting any thing from that committee, from the fact that I was aware that the whole ground would be covered by other commit- tees. I was of opinion that the committee was formed for the express purpose of giving places to some members upon it. The question was taken on the amendment, and it was lost. Sec. 7. In all criminal prosecutions the accused shall enjoy the right to be heard by himself and counsel ; to demand the nature and cause of the accusation against him ; to meet the witness face to face ; to have compulsory process to compel the attendance of witnesses in his behalf and in prose- cutions by indictment or information, to a speedy public trial by an impartial jurj* of the county or district wherein the offence shall have been com- mitted, which county or district shall have been previously ascertained by law. Mr. DAVIS. I move that that entire sec- tion be stricken out, and for the same reasons I gave in fiivor of striking out section six. Mr. SECOMBE. There has been -some talk about following precedents, and about there being men who can see nothing good in what is old, and no good but in that which is new. I do not belong to cither of those classes. I do not believe any thing is good 102,. '^JNlfEgOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Fiuday, Jily 2-i. because it is old, nor bad because it is new. I am in favor of adopting in this Convention, so far as we can do so, the precedents set us in the formation of the Constitution of the United States, and which have been followed down to the present day in the formation of the State Constitutions. There are certain principles which have never been declared in any better form, and never can be. Where such is Ihe case, I am in favor of following such precedents. The Constitution of the United States has a clause equivalent to this, declaring the rights therein contained to be inherent rights in the people, and I hope to see it incorporated into our Gbnstitution. The question was taken on the motion to strike out, and it was lost: Mr. STANNARD. I move to amend the section by striking out " and" where it first occurs and inserting "or." The amendment was adopted. Mr. STANNARD. I now move to strike out the word "meet" and to insert in lieu thereof the word " confront." Mr. PERKINS. I move to amend the amendment, so as to make that particular clause read " and to be confronted with the "witnesses against him." Mr. STANNARD. That would give the accused the right to be confronted, but not to confront. Mr. BILLINGS. I doubt whether that amendment conveys the meaning intended by the committee which reported this bUl, or which we wish to conve}^, for this clause is in favor of the accused, and of his liberty to meet and confront, and hot for giving the State the liberty to confront him. It is his right to show by counter evidence that the things alleged against him are not true, and that is the right we intend to secure to him. But a provision "to be confronted" is for the ben- efit of the accuser and not for the accused. The State always has that right. We do not want to enlarge the powers of the govern- ment, but we are legislating for the largest liberty of the party accused. Nott' I doubt whether we, as a body, can improve any one of those clauses reported by the committee, and unless error is clearly apparent upon the first flush, we had better not meddle with them. First impressions are generally the best. I consider this Bill of Rights something like the bills of fare laid upon our dinner tables — not the dinner itself, but only as foreshadowing what it may be. It may cover all or more. Now is there a gentleman in this Convention, who docs not believe just what this sixth section contains as it stands? Is there a gentleman who be- lieves that excessive bail should be required ; excessive fines imposed ; or unusual punish- ments inflicted? Is there a man who believes ; that the accused should not be heard by him- ; self or counsel ; that he should not have the nature of the accusation made known to him ; I that he should not have the privilege of meet- j ing the witnesses face to face ; and that he ; should not have compulsory process to com- I pel the attendance of witnesses? There is I nothing that we can do, but what other per- sons may and mil find fault with. Our labors may be, and will be imperfect, after we expend all our wisdom upon them, but because a thing is imperfect, it is no reason why it should be stricken out entirely. I believe the meaning is conveyed more per- fectly by the word "confront" than by the words " to be confronted," and I shall vote accordingly. Mr. SECOMBE. I believe the gentleman from Fillmore county [Mr. Billings] miscon- ceives the meaning of Ae words used. I refer here again to the Constitution of the United States, framed by wiser heads than ours, and I find the language there used the same as that proposed by the gentleman from Rice county [Mr. Perkins] — "to be confronted with the witnesses against him." What does that mean ? It means that when a charge is made against any person, he may demand that the government shall bring the witnesses before his face, and that they shall there, in his presence and under his eye, make the charge against him — not that he shall have permission to go off somewhere to meet them, but that the government shall bring those wit- nesses into his presence. What is the idea conveyed by the sentence as it stands — " to meet the witness face to Xace ? " What witnesses ? For or against him? Suppose the word "confront" is used, what is the meaning then ? Of itself it means face to face, and you have a repetition of the same thing in the same sentence. MINNESOTA COXVENTIOX DEBATES— Fkidat, Jlly 24. 108 The provision proposed, cuts off the right of introducing depositions upon criminal tri- als. In civil cases it is well known, that if the attendance of witnesses is inconvenient, their depositions can be taken, imder certain restrictions of law. But the provision that he shall be confronted with the witnesses against him, compels the government to bring the witnesses bodily into the presence of the accused. I believe that no language can be used which more clearly expresses the idea, than the language proposed by the gentle- man from Rice county. I do not wish to pick flaws in the report, but the object of the Convention, sitting in committee of the Whole, is to perfect the matters which the committees report, accord- ing to the best of their present knowledge and ability. Mr. LYLE. I do not see any particular necessity of altering the language of this section. It says " to meet the witnesses face to face." Now those are the witnesses against him, of course. Then it goes on to state that he shall have compulsory process to compel the attendance of witnesses in liis behalf. It seems very plain to me, and I do not think it necessary to discuss such small matters. I hope we shall proceed at once and dispose of the subject. Mr. BALCOMBE. I rise to express my opinion in favor of the substitute offered by the gentleman from Rice county. It is in the exact language of a clause in the Consti- tution of the United States. I have a par- ticular regard for that instrument and for its language; and I believe that nearly every Convention which has heretofore formed a State Constitution, has adopted that language. I hope the substitute will be adopted. Mr. PERKINS. It seems to me that gentlemen upon the other side of the House have misinterpreted the language I propose ta employ. One gentleman says it is a very different thing to " confront" or " to be con- fronted by." But the language I propose to use is " to be confronted with the witnesses against him." The words " to meet the wit- nesses face to fiice" are meaningless in my opinion, and would lead to difSculties in their practical application. The language, taken from the Constitution of the United States expresses just the idea gentiemen desire. It ' is as significant as any language that can pos- sibly be employed, and is beyond quibble as to its meaning. The question was taken on Mr. Peekixs' substitute, and it was adopted. Mr. PECKHAM. I move that the com- mittee rise report progress and ask leave to sit again. The motion was lost. Mr. SEC0:MBE. I move to amend in the seventh line, by inserting after the word " behalf," the words, " to have the assistance of counsel for his defense." Mr. BALCOMBE. I really cannot see the necessity of such an amendment. In the first two lines, the accused is guaranteed the assistance of counsel. The language is — " in " all criminal prosecutions the accused shall " enjoy the right to be heard by himself or " counsel." Now why renew the guarantee in the same section? Mr. SECOMBE. The first provision, it seems to me, is simply a provision that in all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall be notified, and have the privilege of making a defence ; but the provision I propose to insert is of a different nature entirely. The first provision leaves it optional with him whether he wiU be heard personally or by counsel. I propose to insert a provision to the effect that he shall have the assistance of coimsel. For instance, a prisoner appears before the bar without comisel ; the court demands of him if he has counsel for his defence ; he has none ; it then becomes the duty of the gov- ernment to furnish him with counsel, and not take advantage of his poverty or inability to procure counsel. The government not only pays the district attorney for prosecuting him, but it binds the government to furnish counsel for the defence. And here again we have the sanction, and not only the sanction, but the binding force of the Constitution of the United States, for we have to frame a Constitution which does not conflict with the Constitution of the United States; and one of the provisions of that Constitution is that every individual under the government of the United States shall have the assistance of coimsel for his defence. We are bound to protect citizens in the rights which are given to them by the Federal Constitution. 104 MIXNESOTxV CONVENTION DEBATES— Friday, July 24. Mr. BILLINGS. I move to amend the amendment last offered, by stiiking it out and inserting in the place of it a comma after the word " behalf." That may seem trivial but it is not. If I understan i the gentle- man's argument, it is based upon mercy to the accused, and he conceives, in his generosity, that the government should furnish every criminal veith an attorney. Oases of assault and battery, and other trivial offences before a justice of the peace, are criminal proceed- ings, but who before ever conceived it the duty of the government to furnish coimsel to defend in such cases ? Now it occurrs to me that if you insert a comma where I have pro- posed, and let each part of the sentence re- fer to its own subject, that will be sufficient for all purposes. We ought not to bind the incoming State, in all future time, to keep in each county or each district, imder the juris- diction of a justice of the peace, an officer whose business it shall be to attend to the de- fence of all matters of a criminal nature. Mr. SECOMBE. If I had not a material object in view, I would accept the gentleman's amendment. But the poor, unfortunate criminal would very unwillingly accept, in place of the defence which I propose he shall have, the comma proposed by the g-entleman. Mr. BILLINGS. Will the gentlemen give me the difference in most cases between an attorney and a comma? The one is fre- quently only a longer pause than the other. (Laughter.) Mr. SECOMBE. The gentleman from Fillmore, [Mr. Billings] is an attorney him- self, I believe, and perhaps he has only been giving a righteous judgment, and I find no fault with it. (Laughter.) I know what the Constitution of the United States says, and it is, that in all criminal prosecutions the accused shall have the assistance of counsel for his defence, and I propose that the Consti- tution of this State shall adopt the same language ; and if in the Constitution of the United States it means that criminals shall have that defence in justice's courts, then it will mean the same in our Constitution. Mr. BALCOMBE. I wiU ask the gentle- man from St. Anthony to withdraw his amendment and permit me to offer a sub- stitute for the whole section in the words of the Constitution. Mr. SECOMBE. I will do so. Mr. BALCOMBE. Then I ofier the follow- ing substitute for the whole section : " In all criminal prosecutions the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial by an impartial jury of the county or district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which county or district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation^ to be confronted with the wit- nesses against him ; to have compulsorj' process for obtaining witnesses in his behalf, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defence." I know of no better language than that of the Constitution of the United States, in which to express the idea we wish to convey. Ml-. BILLINGS. I now offer a substitute for the substitute. Strike out all after the word, "criminal" and insert the following: " Cases involving the life, limb or liberty of an individual, the accused shall have the right to a speedy and public trial by an impartial jury ; to be informed of the accusations against him ; to have a copy of the same when demanded ; to meet the witnesses face to face ; to have compulsory process to compel the attendance of witnesses in his be- half : Provided, that nothing in this article shall be so construed as tu afi'ect requisitions from Gover- nors of other States upon the Governor of this State for the rendition of fugitive criminals to the Courts having proper jurisdiction in those States in which such criminals are charged with having committed crimes." The substitute for the substitute was re- jected. The substitute was then adopted. Mr. BALCOMBE. I now move that the committee rise, report progress and ask leave to sit again. Mr. SECOMBE. We have agreed to sit here and work. What hinders our sitting here an hour longer ? The motion was not agreed to. Sec. 8. No person shall be held to answer for a criminal offence unless on the presentment or in- dictment of a grand jury, except in cases of im- peachment, or in cases cognizable by justices of the peace, or arising in the army or navy, or in the militia when in actual service in time of war or public danger, and no person for the same of- fence shall be puttwicein jeopardy of punishment, nor shall be compelled in any criminal clise to be a wiin ss against himself. All persons shall, before conviction, bo bailable by sufficient sureties, except for capital ofllences when the proof is evident or the presumption great ; and the privilege of the writ of habeas corpus shall not be suspended, un- less when in case of rebellioa or invasion the public safety may require. MINNESOTA CONTENTION DEBATES— Fbiday, Jcly 24. 105 Mr. STAN'NARD. The word "punish- ment" in that section does not conform to the Constitution of the United States, and I therefore move to strike it out. The amendment was not agreed to. Mr. SECOMBE. I move to amend by \ inserting after the word "himself" the words : ; " Nor be deprived of life, liberty or property, without due process of law." The amendment was adopted. Sbc. 9. Every person is entitled to a certain remedy in the laws for all injuries or wrongs which he may receive in his person, property or charac- ter ; he ought to obtain justice freely, and without being obliged to purchase it; completely and without denial, promptly and without delay, con- formably to the laws. Mr. LYLE. I move as a substitute for that section the following : " Every person shall be entitled to a remedy for all injuries and wrongs which he may receive in his person, property, or character, without delay con- formably to law." , The substitute was not agreed to. Mr. BOLLES. I move to amend by strik- ing out all the section after the word " charac- ter." The latter part seems to be a repetition of the idea of the former part. Mr. SECOMBE. It seems to me that the whole section is unnecessary . We have already declared that men have certain inherent rights, among which are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness ; and to secure those rights gov- ernments are instituted among men, deriving ' their just powers from the consent of the governed. If these are inherent rights and governments are instituted to secure them, does it not follow as a natural presiunption that persons are entitled to a remedy if de- prived of those rights ? The amendment was not agreed to. Mr. ALDRICH. I move to strike out the words " being obliged to" and the word " it," so that it shall read " he ought to obtain jus- " tice freely and without purchase, completely " and without denial" &c. The amendment was adopted. Sec. 10. Treason against the State shall consist only in levying war against the same or in adhering to its enemies, giving them aid and comfort. No person shall be convicted of treason unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court. Mr. PERKINS. I think that section should remain as it is. For one, I am in fiivor of 14 having treason defined as it is in this section, and so I think every man in this Convention will, when he remembers that charges of trea- son are made against us, and we are liable to swing for it. (Laughter.) I think treason should only consist in levying war against the State, and in adhering to the enemy and giv- ing them comfort. I think we have not ad- hered to the enemy, but have separated from them, nor have we given them much comfort. (Laughter.) The amendments were proposed and the section was passed over. Sec. 11. The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures shall not be violated, and no warrant shall issue but upon pro- bable cause supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the person or things to be seized. Mr. ALDRICH. I move to amend by in- serting after the word " but," the words " on " complaint in writing." Mr. PERKINS. The language used in this section is the same that is employed in the Constitution of the United States, and it seems to me to be suflBcient, The Legisla- ture can carry out the provision in detail. Mr. BILLINGS. I am opposed to the amendment from the fact that there are cer- tain circumstances in which seiztu-es of persons should be made without the delay which would be necessary to put the facts, warrant- ing the seizure, in writing. Justices of the Peace and Constables are by law now au- thorized instanti to suppress riots, and disperse persons engaged in any unlawful act. That provision should not be interfered with. The amendment was not agreed to. Mr. BOBBINS. I move to strike out the words "searches and seizures" and insert " search or seizure." The amendment was not agreed to. Mr. BOBBINS. I move that the commit- tee rise, report progress and ask leave to sit again. The motion was lost Sec. 13. No private property shall be taken for public use without just compensation therefor. Mr. DULEY. I move to strike out all after the word " no" and insert the following : " Man's particular services shall be demanded without just compensation. No man's property shall be taken by law without jnst compensation ; 106 MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Fkidat, July 24. nor except in case of the State, without such com- pensation first assessed and tendered." The amendment was rejected. Sec. 14. All lands within the State are declared to be allodial, and feudal tenures are prohibited. Leases and grants of agricultural land for a longer term than fifteen years, in which rent or service of any kind shall be reserved, and all fines and like restraints upon alienation reserved in any grant of land hereafter made, are declared to be void. Mr. BILLINGS moved to strike out the word " agi'icultural ;" which amendment was agreed to. Mr. BALCOMBE. This is a section of some considerable importance. I must con- fess that I am not prepared at this time to say whether I am in favor of, or opposed to in- serting it in the Preamble and Bill of Rights. There is a great question involved in this sec- tion, and over which there has been much dis- cussion, and a great deal of dispute in the State of New York, and in some of the other States of this Union. I wish to refresh my memory upon the question involved in it, be- fore I am called upon to vote for or against it. I therefore move that the section be stricken out, and when we go into the House with it, we can restore it, if the Convention sees fit, — and in the mean time members will have an opportunity to investigate it. Mr. SECOMBE. I hope the motion wiU not prevail. The gentleman has alluded to difficulties which have existed in the State of New York, anl to the differences of opinion which have existed in that State upon this subject. I presume there has been no differ- ence of opinion about that being an unfortu- nate state of affairs in New York, which has arisen out of a state of things which is in- tended to be prevented in this State by this section. In the State of New York there was something like feudal tenures, and if the question now was, whether we should insert a provision in the Constitution allowing such tenures, I should be in favor of the gentle- man's motion. But we wish to avoid the difficulties they have had in New York, and therefore I am in favor of the clause remain- ing where it is. Mr. BALCOMBE. The fact that this is a very important question induces mc at thi^ time to move to strike it out, and then at some future time when we shall have a full Con- vention, we can move to insert it again. We all know that we have but few members here, and I want to hear the questions involved in this section fully discussed in committee of the Whole at some future time, when each member will have the opportunity of speaking as many times as he desires. If we pass it by now, it comes up in the Convention upon the adoption of it, and then we shall each of us be entitled to speak only fifteen minutes. Mr. SECOMBE. I do not believe there is a member of the Convention who will oppose the insertion of this article in the Constitu- tion, and I do not believe there is any neces- sity for any body to speak fifteen minutes upon it. It may be desirable to make some amendments to it. I have not myself given it any particular attention. It may not be in the best form now, but that there will be any objection to it I do not believe. The question was taken upon the motion to strike out, and it was decided in the nega- tive. • Mr. BIILLINGS. I move to strike out the word " fifteen " and insert " fifty." The amendment was not agreed to. Sec. 16. No person shall be imprisoned for debt arising out of or founded upon any contract express or implied. Mr. LOWE. I move to amend that section by adding at the end thereof the words " un- "less in case of fraud." I suppose the section as it now stands * meets the ideas of gentlemen here. But it is apparent that there are some gross cases of fraud in (f&ntracts that ought to be punished, and we ought not to place it out of the power of the Legislature to provide punishment in such cases. Mr. SECOMBE. I presume it was the intention of the committee which made this report, to provide for what the amendment provides. But it seems to me they did not do it. It says " no person shall be imprisoned " for debt arising out of or founded upon any " contract expressed or implied," no matter what fraudulent circumstances there might be connected with that debt. The amendment was agreed to. Sec. 17. The right of the debtor to enjoy the necessary comforts of life shall be recognized by wholesome laws, exempting a reasonable amount of property from seizure or sale for the payment of any debt or liability hereafter contracted. Mr. LYLE. The subject of this section MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Fbidat, July 24. 107 properly belongs to the committee on Exemp- tions of Real and Personal Estate, and inas- much as that committee have made a report covering this whole ground, I move to strike the section out. Mr. BALCOMBE. I hope the motion will not prevail. I am in favor of inserting in the Conititution a homestead exemption clause, but I am not in favor of a clause covering the whole ground, and leaving nothing for the Legislature. I have been the advocate of a homestead exemption law for many years, but there are others in this Convention and out of it who differ with me as to the amount of exemption. For this reason I would not endanger the adoption of our Constitution by inserting in it, an unnecessary clause, which might cause many to vote against it, who would otherwise vote for it. I think, under the circumstances, that this is a matter which we ought to take into consideration. There are many things which I would insist on hav- ing inserted in the Constitution, were it not for the peculiar circumstances by which we are surrounded, which I vnQ. not now insist upon ha\Tng in that instrument. I think all of us should be governed by the same spirit. I think all we are called upon now to do, is to provide that the Legislature shall have power to frame an exemption law. Then let that question go into the next canvass, and mem- bers of the next Legislature will be elected in reference to it. Mr. SECOMBE. I agree with the gentle- man from Winona [Mr. Balcombe] that we better insert in the Constitution such a general clause as this, in preference to the more lengthy and particular provisions of the report of the committee on Exemptions. We should do it not only as a matter of policy, but as a matter of principle. I do not be- lieve it is the province of a Constitutional Convention to legislate in detail. They should only lay down genei-al principles upon which the Legislature shall proceed, and by which they shall be governed. As the sec- tion now stands it imposes upon the Legisla- ture the necessity of making laws upon the subject. It says the right of the debtor to enjoy the necessary comforts of life, shall be recognized by wholesome laws. It leaves to the Legislature to say what the amount of exemption shall be. I believe it is a proper provision in the proper place, and therefore hope it will be suffered to remain. Mr. LYLE. I think it was entirely unne- cessary to appoint a committee on Exemption if that committee was to have nothing to do — if its duties could all be performed by the committee on the Preamble and Bill of Rights. I deemed it very necessary that such a com- mittee should be appointed, and also that a clause should be inserted in the Constitution guarding the rights of the debtor, and also a clause guarding the rights of married women. I think they should be protected by the Constitution, and not be left to the caprice of the Legislature. I think we shall get more votes for the Constitution if we insert in it the report of the committee on Exemption of Real Estate &c., than we shall with only this provision in it. Mr. BOLLES. I hope the clause will remain as it is. It is a simple declaration of what we, as a body, are ready to start out upon in reference to this question. It is recognized by the community at large as a legitimate subject of legislation. I am in favor of leaving it as it is. Then I am in favor of a good wholesome exemption law, and I hope that we as a Republican party will adopt that as our creed. I happen to be somewhat acquainted with the rural portions of our Territory, and I know that the popu- lar sentiment is in favor of such a law. But I do not think this is the proper time to dis- cuss the details of such a law. When the report of the committee on Exemption shall come under discussion I shall be ready to offer an amendment enlarging the provisions there recommended, to a considerable extent. The motion to strike out was lost. Mr. SECOMBE. It is now six o'clock. I I move that the committee rise, report pro- gress and ask leave to sit again. The motion was lost. Ml'. BILLINGS. I move to amend by inserting between the words "wholesome" and "laws" the word "exemption" and to strike out the remainder of the section. The amendment was agreed to. Mr. BILLINGS. I now move that the committee rise, report progress, and ask leave to sit again. The motion was agreed to. So the committee rose, and the President 108 MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Satuedat, July 25. having resumed the chair, the Chairman reported progress and asked leave to sit again. Leave was granted. And then on motion of Mr. PERKINS, the Convention adjourned. TWELFTH DAY. Satuedat, July 25, 1857. The Convention met at nine o'clock, a. m. No quorum being present, on motion of Mr. BILLINGS, a call of the Convention was ordered. The Clerk proceeded to call the roll when thirty members answered to their names. A quorum being present all further pro- ceedings under the call were dispensed with. The journal of yesterday was read and ap- proved. Mr. PERKINS oflFered the following reso- lution, which was read, considered and agreed to: " Besolved, That the use of this Hall be granted to the Rev. Dr. Roberts, of the Reformed Presby- terian Church of Iowa, for the purpose of holding Divine service in the same on to-morrow the 26th instant." WISH OF THE PEOPLE TO BECOME A STATE. Mr. BALCOMBE. I offer the following resolution : Whereas, It has been determined by the as- piring leaders of the Democratic party to prevent, if possible, the immediate admission of Minnesota into the Union of States as a sovereign and inde- pendent State ; and whereas it is our belief that nearly every citizen of this Territory is in favor of an immediate admission as possible, therefore be it— Besolved, That we recommend that the citizens of this Territory hold meetings in their respective precincts or counties, without distinction of party, and express by resolutions their desire upon this important question." I do not propose Mr. President, to press the adoption of this resolution to-day. I of- fer it now that it may lay over under the rule and come up in the regular order of business on Monday, at which time, with the permis- sion of the Convention, I propose to make some remarks upon it, showing that it is the design of the leaders of the Democratic party to put every obstacle in the way of the ime- diate admission of Minnesota into the Union, and I mean to show this by their actions and by their words. The resolution was laid over under the rule, COMMITTEE ON LEAVE OF ABSENCE. The PRESIDENT appointed Messrs. Col- BUEN, Davis and Duley as the members of the committee on Leave of Absence, ordered yesterday. On motion of Mr. BOBBINS, the Conven- tion resolved itself into a committee of the Whole upon the report of the committee on Preamble and Bill of Rights, (Mr. Colbuen in the Chair.) Mr. SECOMBE. I move that the commit- tee now rise. I believe only nine members voted in favor of the committee of the Whole, and seven against it. I believe we are with- out a quorum and I make the motion to as- certain that fact. The motion was agreed to. The committee accordingly rose, and the President having resumed the Chair, Mr. SECOMBE moved that there be a call of the House. A call of the House was ordered, and the roll being called twenty -nine members (not a quorum) answered to their names. The Sergeant-at-Arms was directed to bring in the absentees. After a few minutes, — Mr. BOBBINS moved that all further pro- ceedings under the call be dispensed with. The motion was not agreed to. And then on motion of Mr. SECOMBE the . Convention adjourned until Monday morning at nine o'clock. THIRTEENTH DAY. Monday, July 27, 1857. The Convention met at 9 o'clock, a. m. Prayer by the Chaplain^ Rev. E. D. Neill. The journal of Saturday was read and approved. The following resolution, laid over from Saturday, coming up in the regular order of business, viz : " Whereas, It has been determined by the aspiring leaders of the Democratic Party to pre- vent, if possible, the immediate admission of Min- nesota into the Union of States as a sovereign and independent State ; and " Whereas, It is our belief that nearly every citi zen of this Territory is in favor of as immediate admission as possible ; therefore be it "Besolved, That we recommend that the citizens of this Territory hold meetings in their respective precincts or counties without distinction of party. MINNESOTA CONTFA'TION DEBATES— Mosoat, July 27. 109 and express by resolves their desires upou this important question." On motion of Mr. CLEGHORN, the same was laid upon the table until to-morrow. PREAJIBLE AXD BILL OF BIGHTS. Mr. HARDING. I move that tlie Conven- tion proceed to the consideration of the report of the committee, pn the Preamble and Bili of Rights. Mr. SECOMBE. I understand that that bill is yet in committee of the Whole. The PRESIDENT. The bill is out of com- mittee every time the committee reports to the Convention. Mr. ROBBINS. I believe the committee did not ask leave to sit again. The motion was agreed to. Mr. BOLLES. I now move that the Con- vention resolve itself mto a committee of the "Whole on the Preamble and Bill of Rights. The motion was agreed to. The Convention accordingly resolved itself into a committee of the Whole (Mr. Stax- NARD in the chair,) and resumed the consider- ation of the report of the committee on the Preamble and Bill of Rights, commencing where the committee last left oflf, being section eighteen, as follows : " The right of every man to worship God according to the dictates of his own conscience shall never be infringed ; nor shall any man be compelled to attend, erect or support any place of worship, or to maintain any ministry against his consent. Xor shall any control of or interference with the rights of conscience be permitted, or any preference be given by law to any religious estab- lisement or mode of worship. Nor shall any money be drawn from the Treasury for the benefit of religious societies, or religious or theological seminaries." . Mr. MORGAN. I move to amend by in- serting before the word "ministry," the words "religious or ecclesiastical." The amendment was agreed to. Skc. 2-3. Every law enacted by the Legislature shall embrace but one object, and that shall be expressed in the title. Mr. SECOMBE. I move to amend the section by striking out the word "object' and inserting " subject." The amendment was adopted. Sec. 24. Any citizen of this State who shall, after the adoption of this Constitution, fight a duel with deadly weapons, or send or accept a challenge to fight a duel with deadly weapons, either within this State or out of it, or who shall act as second, or knowingly aid or assist in any manner those thus oflFending, shall be deprived of holding any oflice of profit or trust under this State. Mr. MILLS. I move to strike out the whole of that section and insert in lieu thereof the following : "Duelling is an evil and shall never be allowed in this State." Mr. SECOMBE. I hope the amendment will not prevail. It seems to me that there is no better way of preventing the evils of duel- ing than that proposed in the section as it is reported from the committee, and I am very much in favor of it. Mr. WILSON. I am in favor of the amendment. I am in general opposed to attaching any punishment to any crime be- yond that which the court which convicts the individual may inflict. The court before which the accused is tried, knows the circum- stances under which the crime was committed, and therefore knows better than anybody else the punishment it deserves. The court, therefore, is the proper tribunal to inflict pun- ishment. This legislating in our Constitution, and saying that in every case of a certain ofifence, there shall be, so to speak, a revision- ary punishment, which shall attach, is wrong. We can probably all say, and I can say, that I believe that dueling is always wrong, but there are times and circumstances when the wrong, if not justifiable, is certainly an excusable wrong. Another thing : wrong or right, the provis- ion will be got around in some way. There are times and circumstances in which men will fight duels. Take, for instance, the case of the present Governor of Illinois, Mr. Bissell. He sent a challenge. Who blamed liim for it ? The citizens of his own State took him up and elected him Governor. Who believes he was wrong in the course he took ? He believed it was his duty to do as he did, and he made the champion of States' rights in the south " crawfish," — to use an expres- sive phrase. He did a good work for the Free State party. He showed southern men that they could not abuse Free State men vrith impunity, and he gave a check to the growing opinion of the South that Free State men were cowards, and hiding themselves vmder the plea of morality, would not fight. That case has made a great many Southern 110 MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Monday, July 27. Congressmen cautious how they challenge Northern men. Again, take the case of Burlingame and Brooks. Shall we attach an eternal punish- ment to such an act as that of Burlingame's ? Shall we go beyond the punishment which the court might inflict in such a case as that? I am opposed to it, and I would not have this Convention anticipate all cases. I should not wonder if there were times when the most moral and religious of men in this Conven- tion should justify what this section condemns. Circumstances might compel them to, and hence I would not inflict such a punishment for such an offence. Let such cases take care of themselves, for we have no fighting men among us, and hence no necessity of this provision. But I said such a provision would be evaded. In the State of Illinois their Consti- tution forbids dueling, and how did they get along with BisselFs case? Why they said he was not at the time a citizen of the State, • — being out of it at the time — and therefore not a violation of the law. I think that was a quibble myself; but it shows that people will get around the provision one way or another. When does a man fight in his own State ? It is almost the uniform practice to go outside of the State. But why select out this crime, as though it were the most henious of all crimes, and provide for it punislmient in the Constitution ? Why not put in some- thing about murder, polygamy, or many other crimes ? I hope the amendment will be adopted. It is true such a provision has been incorporated in the Constitutions of some other States, but that is no reason why we should follow their example. We should use our own judgment, and not follow because others have taken the lead. It may be well to look to precedents, and] to look well before we depart from them, but I am not in favor of this provision. Mr. BOBBINS. I move a substitute for the substitute, and that is to strike out of the original section all after the word " offend- ing," and insert in lieu thereof the words, "Shall bo subject to such punishment aa the liegislature shall determine by law." Mr. MORGAN. I am opposed to this section in this place. The Bill of Rights does not seem to me to be the proper place for inserting a code of punishment for offences. Pimishment for crimes are usually contained in the statutes, and not in the Constitution. There are many worse offences than dueling, and to say that a man who has either fought a duel, or has been connected with one, shall be forever disqualified for holding office, is going a good ways. A man may be guilty of manslaugh- ter, or highway robberry, and be in State prison as a punishment for the offence, yet if he is pardoned out one day before the expira- tion of his sentence, he is restored to all his civil rights ; but a man who has been con- nected in any way with a duel, cannot, if this section is adopted, be restored to his civil nghts without a change of the Constitution. I object to this placing in the BUI of Rights so many tilings which are so foreign to its object. The Bill of Rights is a statement of certain rights and privileges which are to be forever assured to the people of the State, and it is never supposed that it will treat in detail of the punishment of this or that offence. The matter of punishment of crimes is a proper subject of legislation, and there it should be left. Mr. ALDRICH. I must say that I am opposed to the section entirely, and I think it better to strike it out wholly, than to adopt the amendment or substitute. At the same time I am as much opposed to dueUng as any man, but cases have arisen when it was almost absolutely necessary for a man to stand up to his rights, even to the extent of fighting a duel. I know the Governor of Illinois, [Mr. Bissell], and when he sent that challenge to the arch nuUifier of Mississippi, there was not a citizen of Illinois who was not proud of Governor Bissell, and not until he was nomi- nated tor Governor, was the matter even re- garded in other than the most approving light. I think we had better leave the matter with the Legislature. If we put all of these things into this report, we shall have something entirely different from the Bill of Rights. If the gentleman will move to strike out the whole section I will vote for it. Mr. ROBBINS. I wiU, with the consent of the Convention, withdraw my substitute. The amendment offered by Mr. Mills was then agreed to. Mr. MORGAN. I move to strike out the whole section as amended. MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Monday, July 27. Ill Mr. SECOMBE. I rise to a point of order. The Convention have just determined that the section shall remain in a certain shape, and it cannot be in order to strike it out. The CHAIRMAN thinks the point of order well taken, and that the motion is not admis- sible. Sbc. 25. The criminal code shall be founded on principles of reformation, and not of yindictive jnstice. Mr. LOWE. I move to strike out that section. The motion was agreed to. Sec. 27. The blessings of a free government can only be maintained by a firm adherence to justice, moderation, temperance frugality and vir- tue, and by a frequent recurrence to fundamental principles. Mr. SECO^klBE. I move to strike out that section. There is nothing in it I disagree with, but it seems to me that it is a simple dissertation ; that it does not entmciate any- right of the people ; and therefore ought not to be incorporated in the Bill of Rights. Mr. BILLINGS. Our proceedings in dis- posing of this report, reminds me of the boy with the dnun, who, not exactly understand- ing where the music came from, deemed it his duty to pull it to pieces, supposing that he should find something inside that would explain the matter. Here gentlemen say they have no objection to certain principles ; that they believe they are true, but yet are in favor of striking out the section containing them. Look at section twenty -fifth which we have stricken out : " The Criminal Code shall "be founded on principles of reformation, " and not of vindictive justice." Is not that a truism? Is there a man here who does not believe the principles there asserted? And am I not justified in saying tliat those who voted " aye" say that it shall be formed upon principles of vindictive justice ? I say it is better to affirm and re-affirm a good principle, than by striking it out, to leave it without affirmation. Now this section declares that " the blessings of a free government can only " be maintained by a firm adherence to jus- " tice, moderation, temperance, frugality and " virtue, and by a frequent recurrence to fun- " damental principles." That is true ; those principles underlie all good governments and all good societies. The characteristics which distinguish a good citizen, characterize a good government. TThat is good for a man in his individual capacity — those virtues which he should nourish as an individual, are good for the state and for communities. Now will it do any harm to say that these private virtues should be carried out in our government? Why we might as well say that the whole Bill of Riehts is surplusage, and move to strike it all out at once. I say strike out every other clause, but leave me this 27th section. Mr. SECOMBE. I desire to say, in expla- nation, that I do not consider that when I vote to strike out a section, I am denying the principles that are therein set forth. This is not a bill of principles and doctrines that we have under consideration, but a declaration of rights which we believe belong to the citi- zens of this State. As the gentleman has referred to section twenty-five, I will say, that this and that section differ materially. That section, as it stood before it was stricken out, did enunci- ate a right, and that was, that no person should be punished imder a criminal code which was formed upon principles of vindic- tive justice. But it was the pleasure of the committee to strike that out. But section twenty-seven enunciates no right or privilege, but merely a general principle which no one will dispute. Mr. BOLLES. I hope the motion to strike out will not prevail. It is certainly true that in this article proposed to be incorporated in our Constitution we not only assert a feet, but declare to the world what are the prin- ciples upon which we base oiur Constitution. This section, in a short and comprehensive maimer, enumerates some of those principles, and it seems to me proper that in summing up this Bill of Rights, that this final section should be incorporated in it. The motion to strike out was lost. Mr. MORGAN. Will it be proper now to refer back to section twenty-two ? The CHAIRMAN. It will if there is no objection. The chair hears no objection. Mr. MORGAN. Section twenty-two reads as follows : "Xo lottery shall ever be authorized by this State, and the buying and selling of lottery tick- ets is hereby prohibited." Now I move to strike out all after the word '' State," and my reason for the amendment 112 MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Monday, July 27. is that the first part of the section is in the nature of a prohibition upon the Legislature, and as such very properly in this Bill of Rights ; but the second part is a matter of legislation merely, and should be left to the control of that body. It is departing from all correct principle to enact a law in the Bill of Rights. The amendment was rejected. Mr. BILLINGS. I move to add the fol- lowing section : " Sec. — . To guard against transgressions of the high powers which we have delegated, we de- clare everything in this article is excepted out of the general powers of government, and shall for- ever remain inviolate, and that all laws contrary thereto, or contrary to this Constitution shall be void." Mr. MORGAN. It seems to me that such a section would not work very well, as some of our propositions in this Bill of Rights are affirmative and some are negative. It is a very unusual provision, and I must confess I do not see how it can operate. Mr. PERKINS. I do not see the need of a section of this kind. It does not add any particular sanctity or obligation to the Consti- tution. That all enactments of the Legisla- ture, in contravention to this Constitution, shall be void, is certainly a principle which cannot be gainsay ed, and it need not be affirmed and reaffirmed. The acts of the Legislature which conflict with the Constitution must be void, and it seems to me folly to add a sec- tion of that kind. Mr. WILSON. I certainly am opposed to that amendment, because, as has just been stated, the facts asserted in that section lie at the very foundation of all government. And the idea that the Constitution is above all law is something which needs no affirmation. Mr. BILLINGS/ My idea of the necessity of this section arose from the fact that we have in this preamble enumerated certain rights as belonging to the people. But there are still remaining with the people a large number of rights which we cannot enume- rate, and to guard those unenumerated rights, I proposed that section. Mr. WILSON. I think the section has just a contrary effect from what the gentle- man intends. The amendment was withdrawn. Mr. ALDRICH. I offer the foUowing a3 an additional section : " Sec. — The enumeration of the foregoing rights shall not be construed to impair or deny others retained by the people." Mr. MORGAN. That is almost in the very language of the Constitution of the United States, which is in these words : " The enumeration in the Constitution of cer- tain rights shall not be construed to deny or dis- parrage others retained by the people." The amendment was agreed to. Mr. PERKINS. I move to strike out sec- tion twenty -two from the Bill of Rights. The CHAIRMAN. The Chair will put the question if it is not objected to. Mr. DAVIS. I object, as we have already passed over that section. Mr. WILSON. I move to amend the thir- teenth section. The CHAIRMAN. The Chair wiU enter- tain the motion if there is no objection. No objection was made. Mr. WILSON. I move to add to the sec- tion the words — " And the jury or Commissioners assessing the damages shall not take into consideration any ad- vantage which shall result to the owner on account of any improvement for which it was taken." I offer the amendment for the folllowing reasons : Where public improvements, such as railroads, pass through the country, they do great injury to the property of individu- als, and in such cases it is customary to ap- point Commissioners or a jury to assess the damages. Now those Commissioners or jury in assessing the damages, take into account the benefit which the individual damaged re- ceives from that railroad or other public im- provement running through his farm. That is unjust. His neighbor by his side, and the whole community around him, are reaping the benefit of that public improvement, as much as he is, and yet he has to pay for the benefit which he receives, while they pay nothing. I think it is palpably WTong. Mr. LOWE. I hope the amendment will not prevail. It seems to me that it infringes upon the province of the Legislature. It strikes mo that the section as reported by the committee is all that ought to be incorporated into the Constitution. What is just compen- sation ought to be IcfTt to the Legislature to decide. The gentleman says that in assess- MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Mosdat, July 27. lis ing damages, to take into consideration the benefit accruing from the public improvement, is palpably unjust. Now to me it does not appear so. The very fact that juries have decided so, proves to me clearly that it is not palpably vrrong. If that is the custom in aU parts of the coimtry, why the gentleman's amendment settles the question against the custom and sense of the country, — which is itself palpaply wrong. At the rate we are going on, it seems to me that we shall infringe upon the legislative pow- er of the government to a very great degree. We are doing more than ought to be done by any Constitutional Convention — ^we axe legis- lating too much in the Constitution. Mr. WILSON. The very reasons adduced by gentlemen in favor of leaving this out, are the most cogent reasons for inserting it. Why, it is our duty, as a Constitutional Con- vention, to say what the Legislature shall and shall not do. The very fact that Legislatures have heretofore declared that the benefits de- rived from public improvements, may or shall be taken into accoimt upon the assessment of damages sustained by an individual upon those works, proves that it is necessary to insert such a provision into the Constitution, so that subsequent Legislatures cannot be bought up by these mammoth corporations, which are able to buy every Legislature which ever sat in this Territory. A and B, for instance, have farms side by side, and a railroad passes through the coun- try cutting off ten acres of A' s farm. There is the loss of that amount of land to him, and the extra expense of making fences, &c B through whose farm the road does not pass, receives an equal amount of benefit as A. Now when the CoDMnissioners or jury come to assess A's damages, they say to him " your remaining " fifty acres are worth fifteen dollars more per " acre tlian they were before the railroad was " built, and that amounts to seven hundred and "fifty dollars, which must be deducted from *' the damages you received by having the ten *' acres taken for the road." B's form, and all the others go ft«e. Now why should A pay any more than any other person who is equally benefitted ? There is no reason for it, except that these corporations have been base enough and rich enough to buy up the Legislature to make laws that suit their convenience. 15 Mr. SECOMBE. I am obliged to differ with the gentleman from Winona. I beUeve that the rule he inveighs against is eminently just and equitable, and it has been adopted in all the States. This is the principle. If an individual is benefitted vastly more than he is injured, or if he is benefitted a Uttle more tlian he is injured, he shall not receive the full amount of damages, independent of the benefit ; but that the benefit shall be offset against the damages. But the gentleman says that in the operation of this rule one man is benefitted more than another, and he complains of that result. Tlfet is no new complaint. We read in a very old book of certain laborers, a part of whom commenced laboring with the morning, a part in the middle of the forenoon, others at noon, and others at a late hour of the night, and each of them received the fiiU pay of a day's labor. But the man who commenced in the morning made complaint because the eleventh hour man had been paid as much as he had. But he was rebuked. He had received all that belonged to him, and it was none of his busi- ness if the eleventh hour man had received more. The same principle appHes here. A has a farm worth five dollars an acre, and likely to be worth no more for years to come. But a railroad passes through his drm and takes away fifteen acres, and he is thereby deprived of what it is worth, being seventy-five dollars. He should receive compensation for that seventy-five dollars. But by the railroad passing through his farm, the balance, say one hundred acres, is increased in value five dollars an acre. The value is raised by the very act by which he lost the seventy-five dollars. Now the gentleman says there are other fiirmers along the road, but not touch- ing upon it, who consequently lose none of their land, but receive a benefit equal to him through whose £irm the road passes, and therefore they make more than he does. Not that he loses anything ; not that he is injured, but that others make more than he does. Now the increased value of his one hundred acres is five hundred dollars, and deducting from that seventy-five dollars, leaves his bene- fit four hundred and twenty-five dollars by the operation. But says the gentleman, here is his neighbor who makes five hundred 114 MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Mondat, Jult 27. dollars, and it is unreasonable. It seems to me it is very reasonable, just and right. However this may be, it is a proper sub- ject to be left to the determination of the Leg- islature ; and I am willing to leave it to that body to say by what rule of evidence that just compensation shall be arrived at. If it is the opinion of the Legislature that it is just and reasonable that where a public benefit is carried on, a person who holds private prop- erty which is taken for public use, shall receive the full compensation for that property, making no allowance for the benefit he receives, I shall be wilfing to let it go in that way. But I am satisfied that no Legislature would ever make any such rule. Mr. PERKINS. In this thirteenth section an important principle is laid down, and it is enunciated in almost if not all the Constitu- tions of the severfd States, and is contained in the Constitution of the United States itself, in the words : " Nor shall private property be taken for public use without just compensation." — I am opposed, however, to the amendment offered by the gentleman from "Winona, be- cause it is, in my opinion, an innovation which ought not to be made. That clause in the Constitution of the United States, and in other States, has received an interpretation by many judicial decisions so that its meaning cannot \>e mistaken. I think the almost uni- versal decision has been that under that clause no private property can be taken with- out just compensation in money. That is, if land has been taken for the public use, the actual value of that land at the time must be paid in money, and you cannot offset the advantage likely to accrue to the property holder from the taking of his property. It has received this definite and precise signifi- cation, and it seems to me the section, as it stands, goes far enough, and that no attempt should be made by us at this time to tie up the hands of the Legislature. The Legisla- ture has the right to say that if the person whose property is taken sets a value upon his property beyond its real value, that the bene- fit which he derives from that public appro- priation of his property may be offset. But that is as far as they have ever had any right to go under this clause of the Constitution. But further than tb&t, it is improper to introduce a principle in the Constitution which properly belongs to the legislative department of the Government. Let us take a provision which is already construed by existing judi- cial decisions, and rest content with that. That is the safest course. Mr. COLBURN. I trust the amendment will not be adopted, and my particular reason is that this is not the place for a provision of that kind. I conceive that the amendment partakes strongly of the nature of legislation, and I shall oppose the introduction of any- thing into the Constitution which partakes so strongly of legislation as this does. If it should be incorporated anywhere in that instrument it should be under the head of the rights and privileges of corporations. But I am opposed to it here, and opposed to it else- where in the Constitution. Mr. DAVIS. For my part, I am in favor of the amendment, because I believe it is founded upon principles of justice and equity. I had prepared a similar amendment myself, though I was not present when the clause was regularly under consideration. It is not just, in my opinion, to take into consideration in such cases, the increased value of the remaining property. I believe that where a public improvement of the kind mentioned is made, and the whole community is benefitted, they should all be compelled to contribute, and I am in favor of inserting that provision here because I think this is the proper place for it, so that no future Legislature can get around the provision. If our Legislatures can be bought up as they have been hereto- fore, it is proper and just that we should put up the bar against their acts. As to this section, without the amendment, having given general satisfaction wherever it has been adopted, I beg leave to differ with gentlemen in that opinion. It may have given general satisfaction to corporations, but it is not true that it has given satisfaction to the farmers, and those who are most likely to be injured by the operation of it. I knew an instance where one man was injured to the amount of hundreds of dollars, and he received a mere nominal compensation for the damages, while his neighbors, who received equal advantage with himself, were not compelled to contribute anything toward the right of way of the road which caused the benefit and the mjury. MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Monday, Jclt 27. 115 As to this being an innovation, I am fairly sick of hearing that argument brought before this Convention, If we are not able to walk alone let us go home. I take it that we are able to think and act for ourselves, and I do not think it is necessary for us to go back and ascertain what has been heretofore, before we shall decide what we shall do. We are able to decide for ourselves, and let us do it. Let us hear no more of this matter of innovation. I favor the amendment and hope it will be adopted, because I believe the community are in favor of it, and because I believe the farmers throughout the country and others holding land will sanction the proceeding of the Convention, should we adopt this amend- ment. Let us show to the farmers that we are not in favor of giving monopolies the power of trampling them vmder foot; and they will show us, in turn, that they will sanction our doings. Mr. BALCOMBE. I rise not to discuss the question properly before the committee, but to ask a favor of the committee. Yester- day I offered a resolution and gave notice that I should desire to make some remarks upon it to-day. Since I came into the Capi- tol this morning, I have been into the other Hall of this building and have heard a discus- sion going on there in which this resolution was referred to, and before that discussion goes out to the world, I desire that my own remarks upon my own resolution should first appear. To enable me to make those remarks at this time, I ask the fiivor of the committee that they rise and ask leave to sit again. With the consent of the committee, I will make that motion. The motion was unanimously agreed to. So the committee rose, reported progress and asked leave to sit again. Leave was granted. On motion of Mr. BALCOMBE, the report of the committee of the Whole was laid upon the table and made the special order for to-day at two o'clock. On motion, the rules were then suspended by a two-third vote so far as to enable the Convention to take from the table the resolu- tion offered by Mr. Balcombe, yesterday. The preamble and resolution introduced by Mr. Balcombe on Satvuxiay, having been read »s follows : Whereas, It has been determined by the aspi- ring leaders of the Democratic party to prevent, if possible, the immediate admission of Minnesota into the Union of States, as a sovereign State, and Whereas, It is our belief that nearly every citi- zen of this Territory is in favor of as Immediate an admission as possible, therefore be it Besolved, that we recommend that the citizens of this Territory hold meetings in their respective precincts or counties, without distinction of party, and express by resolves their desires upon this important question ; Mr. BALCOMBE said, [Mr. Wilsos in the Chair] I wish it distinctly understood before I proceed to make any remarks upon the reso- lution before the Convention, that I am not accustomed to making speeches; that I do not rise simply for the purpose of making a speech ; and that as I am not a candidate for the United States Senate, it will not be expected that I shoidd make a three hour's speech. I rise simply to perform what I con- sider to be a duty to my constituents, to my party and to myself. In some respects it is a painful duty ; in others it is a pleasurable (Hie. The resolution which I offered on Saturday, distinctly charges upon the leaders of the Democratic party a determination to prevent Minnesota from going into the L'nion as a State, and I promised when I offered it, to prove by their own knowledge, by their own connection with and actions in parliamentary bodies heretofore, that they knew that this Convention had proceeded in a legal and regu- lar manner ; and that the only conclusion any one can come to from their actions, from the assembling of this Convention up to the pres- ent time, is that their object is to defeat the wish of the people, which is to go into the Union as a State immediately. I also prom- ised to prove that the leaders of that party knew before assembling, that they were in a minority in this Convention, and expected that it would proceed to business in the man- ner which it has done. The defence they make for their course, will be found in the four following points : First, that the Republicans demanded that all those who presented certificates of election from the proper ofiBcer within the limits of I the proposed State should be permitted to take their seats and be qualified, in accord- ance with the general rule that a certificate i« 115 MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Monday, July 27. prima facie evidence which always entitles the possessor to the seat in the first instance. I insist that such is the general rule govern- ing all deliberative bodies. That there have been exceptions to the rule, I do not deny. That parties have, in the heat of party strife, seen fit in certain instances, to accomplish certain party ends, to directly violate that rule, I do not deny. But are exceptions to a rule to be followed in preference to the rule itself? No man will contend for that. But an exception to that rule, in the New Jersey case, in the House of Representatives of Con- gress, has been paraded before the public, as an instance of what the rule is. I deny that that case was decided in accordance with the general inile. I insist that it was an excep- tion; and assert that that violation of the general rule did much to bring about the de- feat of the Democratic party, in 1840. In 1839, their leaders and members in Congress violated the general rule of parliamenta,ry bodies, and in doing so kept out of their seats in the House of Representatives, members who appeared there with their certificates. That departure from the well known, and general rule, has received the condemnation of the members of all parties, ever since, and will for all time to come. I say, sir, that it has been the universal rule to admit members who presented prima facie evidence of election — that is to say, certificates of election from the proper officers in the first instance. Look over the journals of the United States Senate and House of Representatives, and of all the legislatures in the country, and you will not find one instance in twenty where that rule has been departed from. I propose to refer this Convention to the remarks made, and the course taken, in the United States Senate in a case which might be ^considered an extreme case ; and where the general rule might have been set aside with some show of propriety. But even in that instance jt was not set aside. On the sixth day of December, 1852, Hon. Archibald Dixon presented his CTedcntials to the United States Senate, claiming a seat in that body. Objection was made to his being qualified, on the ground that the seat which he claimed was not varnnt, and that there were already two seats filled by Senators from Kentucky . A motion was made to refer the matter to a committee. The Senate refused to do it. In that case the Senator came ^-ith with a certificate from the Governor of his State, — ^Q prima facie evidence that he was entitled to a seat in that body. On the other side, it was contended that there was pnma facie evidence that Mr. Meriwether still occu- pied a seat in that body, and that there was no vacancy. The Senate would not refer the matter, but immediately entered upon its con- sideration, and by common consent continued to discuss it untn the claimant was admitted to his seat and sworn in. This was a contest between two who had presented the prima facie evidence — the certificate. Those who spoke in favor of Mr. Dixon's right to a seat presented to the Senate niunerous instances where the certificate of election had been con- sidered pnma fads evidence, and that the Senate had been governed by it in its action. It was declared to have been the univers'cl rule governing the actions of that body, to admit to a seat the man who presented his certificate of election — one case only excepted, which seems to have passed by xmanimous consent. The assertions of those supporting Mr. Dixon's right, were not denied by the opposition. In their remarks they tacitly and repeatedly admitted that if another person was not occupying that seat at the time, (as they contended there was,) the claimant would have a right to take it and be sworn in as a member ; and that after that, the contestant, if there was one, could come in and contest the right. In the course of that discussion, Mr. Seward said : " The case is, prima facie, complete ; and in re- ceiving Senators it is the custom, and has been the custom of the Senate of the United States, from the foundation of the Government, to receive the Senator who comes prima facie entitled to fill a vacancy known and admitted to exist, witli a com- mission given him by the Legislature of the State in whose service the vacancy has arisen." Mr. Dawson said : "I think, Mr. President, that during your long experience in this body you have never known such an application as the present one to be denied. I do not think tliere has been any case since you occupied that chair, or have been a member on this floor, wlierc a member presenting the broad seal of his State, was not permitted to occupy the scat, and if there was a contest, it waste be settled afterwards. « * * It is said that there arc doubts 8!! to whether Mr, Dixon is entitled to th» MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Monday, July 27. 117 seat. If there be doubts, as the Senator from ' Tennessee suggests, to whom should you give the benefit of them ? Of course to the party claiming the seat under the broad seal of one of the sove- reign States of this Union,'equally interested with us in preserving the Constitution. Hence it is that I say he should be permitted to take his seat, and then when the report comes in, in the Ian- | guage of the Senator from South Carolina, we can consider it maturely. By the comse that I have proposed, we shall stick to precedent, and cannot be charged with evasion, or with changing our course for any consideration." Mr. Jones, of Tennessee, said : " The certificate of election is the highest testimo- nial that can be presented. It makes out &pritna facie case, and has been so held by the Senate from its organization to the present day with but one solitary exception, that I have been able to find in the journals." Mr. Jones further said : "But, sir, while gentlemen admit the commission is prima facie evidence, they say it is not conclu- sive. Well, it may not be conclusive in every instance that may possibly arise, but is it not some- what remarkable that in all the cases which have arisen from the formation of the Government of the United States to the present day, it has been regarded as conclusive, except in one solitary case ? * * * What were the motives which operated upon the minds of the Senate in that case we are not informed. * * * But all of us can think of many cases, yea, they are innumerable, where the certificate of election is held to be not only prima facie, but conclusive evidence of title so far as holding the seat is concerned. " Who does not remember that the Senator from Florida, (Mr. Mallory,) came here and presented his credentials or certificate of election from the Legislature of Florida, and asked to be permitted to take his seat on this floor, and that that seat was contested? What was done? Does not every Senator know that the certificate of election was held to be valid ? And that Mr. Mallory was per- mitted to occupy a seat, although that seat was contested, and contested for six months before a decision was made ? " There again I illustrate this point by another case which occurred upon the floor of the Senate in relation to the claim of the distinguished Sena- tor from Illinois, Mr. Shields. Who will not remember that when he came here bearing the broad seal of the State of Illinois, and asking a seat on this floor, a Senator rose and asked that his credentials should be referred to a committee for examination, and who will fail to remember with pleasure, as I do, that the Senate refused to refer them to a committee, and granted him a seat on this floor. * « * But, sir, go further back. Here is the contested election of Potter vs. Rob- bins. Here were two gentlemen standing before the Senate of the United States, each claiming to be a Senator from the State of Rhode Island, and each holding a commission from the Legislatiure of that State. That is a stronger case, if possible, than any which I have presented. Here are two gentlemen coming before the Senate, each bearing a certificate of election from the Legislature of the State to which they belong, and each claiming to be a Senator from the State of Rhode Island. What was the decision of the Senate in that case ? It seems to my mind perfectly clear, that the de- cision of the Senate in that case is conclusive, if any decision whatever can be conclusive as a prec- edent in this body. It was decided, after debate, that Mr. Robbins was entitled to be sworn in and take his seat in the first instance, leaving his elec- tion to be determined by the investigation of a committee, and he was ultimately confirmed in his seat in the Senate. "Mr. Robbins came here and presented his cre- dentials, and afterwards another gentleman came and presented his credentials, and the Senate instead of referring them to a committee, asserted that Bobbin's claim was good, and permitted him to take his seat, and then the contest was referred to a committee and adjudicated. "There is still another case. On the fourth of March, 1801, Uriah Tracy, of Connecticut, having presented his credentials under an appointment by the Governor, and the seal of the State, an exception was taken to his credentials, and debate ensued thereon, but on the motion that he be permitted to take the oath required by the Consti- tution, it was decided in the affirmative. This was a question with regard to the validity of the cre- dentials, but still the claim to a seat was taken in advance of the adjudication of the question. I repeat, that so far as I have been enabled to exam- ine this question, I fand but one solitary case where a member who has come here with the regular cre- dentials of election, has been refused permission to take his seat." Mr. Mangum said : "Sir, I had hardly expected to lire to see us re- enact the scenes of the New Jersey case, which happened some years ago in the House of Repre» sentatives, which was burned with a brand that was heated to a white heat by the public reproba- tion of the whole United States — by men of all parties." Now Mr. President, at the very time this matter was under discussion in the Senate of the United States, Mr. Shields was a member of that body, and Ex-Governor Gobmas was a member of the House of Representatives, and the President of the Convention which sits in the other end of this Capitol, was the Delegate in Congress from the Territory of Minnesota. This principle, then, was re-as- serted and not controverted in the very pres- 118 MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Monday, July 27. ence of those men — the present leaders of Democratic Party in this Territory. They had personal knowledge of this principle and had heard it reiterated over and over again ; and yet, sir, one of those very leaders has the hardihood to come into this building and assert that the exception which was presented in the New Jersey Case, was the rule itself, and has acted accordingly, and the other leaders have acted with him. Again, sir, questions of the same kind have arisen in the Territory of Minnesota. I remember the cases of Tillotson and Han- son, and Taylor, and Ludden, and McLeod, who presented their certificates of election to the Territorial Legislature, and I remember, too, that Messrs. Muebay, Setzer, Rolette, Flandbau, Bailly, Nobris and Stubgis, [Mr. KiNGSBUBY was a contestant] now mem- bers of the Convention in the other Hall were members of that Legislature, and that some of them took the ground that the member presenting a certificate iiresented prima facie evidence that he was entitled to a seat, and that he must have his seat in the first instance, and if there were others who w ishcd to con- test that seat, his claim must be referred to a committee. Those gentlemen, then, were cog- nizant of this rule, and acted in accordance with it. They know that the Republicans did not insist upon any thing but. what was usual and parliamentary, when they insisted that every person who presented a certificate from the proper officers within the limits of the proposed State was entitled to a seat in this Convention in the first instance. I remark here that I do not propose to enter into the merits of the question whether certain members who presented their certifi- cates as prima facie evidence, were really en- titled to their scats in this Convention or not, in case a contest was made. We had noth- ing to do with that question, as a body, at that time, nor have we now until a contest- ant comes. It would have been an insult to them to have refused to receive their certifi- cates and admit them as members of this body, and an insult to the officers who gave them their certificates. Nor is it our busi- ness to go into that matter voluntarily our- selves. "Who is to blame if any one occupies a seat in this Convention who is not entitled to it ? Not the members of this Convention. Has the matter ever been brought before them in a tangible and legal shape ? Not by any means. Who then is in fault? Those who supplise they really had rights to seats here, and have not claimed them, and those who sustain them in their course, if anybody. The second excuse which the leaders of that party make for their course is, that the Republicans insisted that the Clerk or Clerks of the board of County Commissioners was the only legal source from whence the prima facie evidence could come. Here I propose to read that section of the Enabling Act which refers to the manner of conducting the election of Delegates to this Convention. It is as follows. Sec. 3. And be it further enacted, That on the first Monday in June next, the legal voters in each representative district, then existing within the limits of the proposed State, are hereby author- ized to elect two delegates for each representative to which said district may be entitled according to the apportionment for representatives to the Ter- ritorial Legislature, which election for delegates shall be held and conducted, and returns made, in all respects in conformity with the laws of said Territory regulati.ig the election of representa- tives ; and the delegates so elected shall assemble at the Capital of said Territory, on the second Monday in July next, and first determine by a a vote, whether it is the wish of the people of the proposed State to be admitted into the Union at that time ; and if so, shall proceed to form a Con- stitution, and take all necessary steps for the establishment of a State Government, in conform- ity with the Federal Constitution, subject to the approval and ratification of the people of the pro- posed State. Now, sir, what is the law ? I refer to sec- tion 33, chapter five of the Revised Statutes, and find the following: Sec. 33. On the twentieth day after the close of any election, or sooner, if all the returns be received, the clerk of the board of County Com- missioners, taking to his assistance two justices of the peace of the county, shall proceed to open said returns and make abstracts of the votes in the fol- lowing manner : The abstract of the votes for Delegate to Con- gress shall be on one sheet ; the abstract of votes for members of the Legislative Assembly shall be on one sheet ; and the abstract of votes for county and precinct oflicers shall be on another sheet ; and it shall be the duty of said clerk of County Commissioners immediately to make out a certifi- cate of election to each of the persons having th« highest number of votes for members of the Le- gislative Assembly. « » * • ^nd MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Moxdat, Jclt 27. 119 to deliver said certificate to the person entitled to it. Also 33, chapter five: When two or more counties are united in one t:ouncil or representative district, the clerk of the board of County Commissioners of the county last «stablished, shall within twenty days after the day of election attend at the office of the clerk of the board of county commissioners, of the senior coun- ty and in coi^unction with the clerk or the clerks of the senior county or counties, shall compare the votes given in the several counties composing such council or representative district, and said clerks shall immediately make out a certificate of the person or persons having the highest number of votes in such counties * * * * which certified shall be delivered to the person entitled to it. ***** # It is made the duty then, of the clerk or clerks of the board of County Commission- ers, to give the certificate, and that certificate when presented, is prima facie evidence of election, and under it the member is entitled to have and hold his seat until it is proven, by actual evidence, that there was fraud or illegal voting, or something of that kind in his election, back of the certificate, sufficient to give the seat to the contestant. The returns, it is true, are made to the Secretary of the Territory, but he does not give certifi- cates. Section 35 of the same act is as follows : Sec. 35. The clerk of the board of Commis- sioners immediately after making the abstracts of the votes given in his county shall make a copy of eacb of said abstracts and transmit it by mail to the Secretary of the Territory who with the Mar- shal of the Territory or his deputy in presence of the Governor, shall proceed within fifty days after the election, and sooner if all the returns be received, to canvass the votes given for delegate to Congress. That is the exception. The Secretary of the Territory has a part in the canvassing the votes for the delegate to Congress, but for no other officers, and no other certificate can come from him or from the Governor, as prima facie evidence. The third reason the leading Democrats give for leaving this Convention, was because the Republicans insisted that a member of the Convention who had been requested in writing, by a majority of all the members elect, and two-thirds of those present, to call the Convention to order, was the proper person, instead of an officious and intermeddling fed- eral office holder — the Secretary of the Terri- tory — and that the general rule was that when no person was directly authorized by law to call deliberative bodies to order, that some member of the body perform that duty. Now, sir, before I proceed to the legal part of the question, I ask the simple ques- tion whether it is not right that a body of this character, assembled to frame a State Constitution, should be entirely free firom all executive interference, or the interference of any federal office holder ? Is it not our right to assemble here to deliberate without any such interference ? Does it not, upon its face, present an appearance of right ? Is it not right in fact ? Certainly it is. Now, as it has been disputed by a gentle- man high in authority in the other party, that no written request was made to Mr. North to call this Convention to order. I ask the Clerk to read from the journal the written request as entered thereon by the order of the Convention. The Clerk then read the request as fol- lows : We, the undersigned, members elect to the Con- stitutional Convention of Minnesota, hereby re- quest J. W. North to call said Convention to order at as early an hour on Monday, the 13th of Julj inst., as the majority of the Convention shall be found in attendence. (Signed) St, A. D. Balcombe, Thos. Foster, H. "W. Holley, Thos. "Wilson, L. K. Stannard, W. H. C. Folsom, N. P. Colburn, A. B. Vaughn, Thos. J. Galbraith, W. Hayden, W. F. Russell, T. D. Smith, N. B. Bobbins, B. H. Baldwin, E. N. Bates, J. H. Mur- phy, S. W. Putnam, P. A. Cederstam, Chas. F. Lowe, Thos. Winell, R. S. Barthololomew, F. Ayer, Geo. Watson, Frank Mantor, Chas. H. Coe, J. A. Anderson, Chas. G. Gerrish, H. A. Billings, S. Harding, A. Coombs. H. Eschlie, J. Cleghorn, Thos. BoUes, J. "W. North, W. J. Duley, J. A. Kemp, J. A. McCann, C. W. Thompson, Chas, McClure, Aaron G. Hudson, Lewis, McKune, Amos Coggswell, 0. F. Perkins, D. A. Secombe, L. C. Walker, B. E. Messer, Cyrus Aldrich, David Mor- gan, B. Lyle, D. L. King, Joseph Peckham, D. M. Hall, E. Page Davis, A. H. Butler, Chas. Hanson, D. D. Dickerson. Dated July 11th, 1S57. Mr. B continued: — Now I will refer to authorities to show that our proceedings were actually in accordance with parliamentary usage. In the first place I read from Cush- ing's Manuel, page 10, sec. 8 : 120 MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Monday, Jcly 27. "The most usual and convenient mode of organ- izing a deliberative assembly is the following : — The members being assembled together in the place, and at the time appointed for thcii' meeting, one of them addressing himself to the others, re- quests them to come to order ; the members there- upon seating themselves and giving their attention to him, he suggests the propriety and necessity of their being organized before proceeding to busi- ness, and requests the members to nominate some person to act as Chairman of the meeting," &c. Now I propose to show that that course has been almost, if not quite, universally fol- lowed, and that this rule universally prevails that wherever a person has been pointed out by law as a person to call a deliberative body to order, he in the first instance has the roll of members called, to ascertain who are members and who are present; and that where the law has not pointed out any such person, any member of the deliberative body, whatever its character may be, has a right to call the body to order. Where such person is pointed out by law, he acts as temporary Chairman. There may be exceptions, in prac- tice, to the rule I have laid down, as there are exceptions to all other rules, but as in other cases, exceptions prove the rule. In the Massachusetts Constitutional Convention held in 1853, the Hon. Robert Raxtoul, of Beverly, called the Convention to order. He was a member of the body, and it was one of those instances in which the law creating the Convention did not prescribe who should call the Convention to order. In Ohio the same course was pursued in its Constitutional Convention of 1850. Mr. Sawyer, member from Allen County, moved that Mr. Larwill be called to the Chair. — Carried. In Illinois no provision was made for calling the Conven- tion to order, and it was called to order by Francis C. Sherman, of Cook County, upon whose motion Mr. Zadok Casey was ap- pointed President of the Convention pro tern. In Iowa there was no provision of law in that respect, and the Convention was called to or- der by James Grant, member elect from Scott County, upon whose motion Mr. Wm. Thompson was appointed Secretary, pro tern. In California, no provision was made by law, and the Convention was called to order by Mr. Halleck, member from Monterey, and Mr. Dimmick was appointed Chairman, pro tern. And here I wish to remark upon the difference in the modesty between the Secre- tary of the Territory of California and our Secretary. Mr. Halleck was Secretary of Cahfomia, and was also elected a member of the Constitutional Convention. His seat was not in controversy ; but, sir, instead of arro- gating to himself the authority of calling the Convention to order, by virtue of his official position., he did so as a simple member of the body, and in his capacity as such? Note still further his modesty, in contrast. On calling the roll on the first day, it was ascertained that there was not a quonmi present, and an adjournment took place until the next Mon- day. On Monday, the Chairman announced that he had received a communication from the Governor, through the Secretary of State. That communication showed who were mem- bers of the Convention, according to the ideas of the Governor. The returns were to be made to the Secretary and Governor, from whom the certificates were to come ; and had it not been for the difference between that Secretary and our Secretary, he could have presented himself at the desk and called the roll of members, because he was the only man who had that roll, and the only man who was oflicially entitled to it, and who could give certificates of election./ I have examined the journals of the Wis- consin Conventions to frame a Constitution, and I find that in both of them a member of the body called them to order. There are other instances which I might cite, but I havo referred to sufficient to establish the general rule. I have examined the joiu-nals of every Convention I could get hold of, and I have not been able to find a single exception to the rule I have laid down. Not only the rule, but the justness of that mode of proceedure, has always been acknowledged. And here I take occasion to say, that one of the members sitting in the other Hall, (Mr. IIolc(>mbe,) was a member of the Wisconsin Convention, and was personally cognizant of the proper mode of proceedure, and the rule. I now come to precedents nearer home. As a general rule the Secretary of the last Senate, the Clerk of the last House, call the succeeding bodies to order in most of the States. That is generally regulated by law, and it is so in this Territory. Our statute provides that the Secretary of the last Council, and the Clerk of the last House, are to call MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Monday, July 27. 121 the succeeding Council and House to order, But an instance occurred in 1853, when the Clerk of the House was not present at the meeting of the follo\^-ing House, and I find in the journal of that body, that " At twelve "o'clock, M., on Monday the fifth of Janu- "ary, designated by law for the Legislature to " assemble, the Chief Clerk of the House not " being in attendance, on motion of Mr. A. E. *' Ames, Mr. Joseph R. Bkowx, was appoin- " ted to occupy the Clerk's desk." Here was an instance in which Mr. A. E. Ames, a gentleman who holds a seat in the bogus Convention in the other end of this Capitol, followed and acknowledged the binding force of the universal rule which I have declared that where no person is appointed by law. to call a deliberative body to order, or if there be such a person^and he is absent, the proper and usual mode is for some member of the body to caU it to order. Joseph R. Brown, also a member of that other body, was appointed Clerk under that rule, and Messrs. MrRKAY, Rolette, and others in that Con- vention were members of that House, and knew of that precedent, and acknowledged it by their action. But I have referred to a sufficient nxmiber of precedents to show the universaUty of the rule, and I will therefore not detain the Con- vention longer with this point, though I could cite a hundred more precedents were it neces- sary to do so. The propriety of such a rule is e\'ident to every unbiased mind. And now, not so much for the purpose of enlightening the members, as to the views of the editor of a certain paper in this city, as for the purpose of spreading the views of that editor upon the journal of debates of this Convention, I will read an editorial article written by an editor of a neutral paper, supposed to be entirely unbiased on this question. The St. Paul Advertiser, of July twenty -fifth, a commercial paper, speaking the sentiments of a class who pay little attention to th.e mere political aspects of this matter, but who are engaged more particularly with the pecuniary and commercial interests of the country, and are disposed to discountenance any movement which is calculated to retard our progress. It is as follows : "The doctrine now for the first time stated, that the Secretary of the Territory is the only 16 person competent to call a Constitutional Conven- tion to order, is too ridiculous to merit one mo- ment's consideration. This, we venture to say, is the most extraordinary proposition that even the exigencies of party logic ever gave rise to. That the Secretary may exercise this privilege, is itself the very doubtful proposition, which nothing but an array of precedents, which do not exist, could warrant in this case, and nothing less than univer- sality of precedent, when there is, perhaps, a single instance on record, could establish it as a, rule. It is, on the other hand, the indubitable and self-evident proposition that any member of an inchoate, deliberative body may call it to order and put the question preliminary to its organization. It does not depend on the occasional or exceptional precedent. But it is the r>TVERSAL rule, and is inherent in the nature, and results from the neces- sity of the case. If any one, therefore, doubts that Mr. Chase, acting by virtue of his Secretary- ship, was competent to call the Convention to order, no one can doubt that Mr. Xoeth, a member of the Convention was fully competent to perform that office. We take it for granted that Mr. Chask was a competent person to do this, but that Mr. XoRTH was equally so. Both these gentlemen acting concurrently, put questions in the usual parliament- ary form, to an assemblage of persons within the bar of the Convention, one was for an adjournment, the other for an organization. Both motions were declared carried. We have here, in one assembly two separate and distinct proceedings at the same time. If we could now ascertain that a majority of the assembly participated in the proceedings initiated by Mr. Chase, and acted upon the motion put by him, we are not sure that any of the conse- quences would follow which the Pioneer deduces from its assertion of that fact. But it is impossi- ble to ascertain any such thing, and it is, to say the least, highly improbable that such was the case. First, because a majority had consented to recog- nize Mr. North beforehand, and had requested him in writing to call the meeting to order. Second. Because the majority of Republicans had every motive for ignoring the proceedings of Mr. Chase. Third. They were acting at the same time upon a motion of their own, agreed upon beforehand, and consented to beforehand unani- mously. " But it must have struck every one that all this balderdash about the competency of this or that oflScer has nothing to do with the question. It is not of the least consequence who puts the questions preliminary to organization, or how they are put. It is only necessary that by some means or other the will of the majority be ascertained. The mode of procedure does not enter into the essence of the act. The will of the majority, how- ever expressed, is the act of all the parties partici- pating in the proceeding. The single circumstance that but forty -five Democrats withdiew from the Hall in accordance with the resolution to adjourn 122 MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Mond at, July ZT- while fifty-six Republicans remained, and orga- nized in accordance with the motion so to do, but concurrently with the other, would seem to express in the clearest and most emphatic manner possible the will of the majority in this case. It is doubtful if a majority of those present recognized the authority of Mr. Chase. It is beyond dispute that a majority recognized the authority of Mr. NoExn. There is no evidence at ail of the one, and there is the most absolute evidence of the other. " On the next day, the Democrats, now increased to forty-six, met pursuant to a(^ournment, as the CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION — as an adjoumed meet- ing of the Convention, and came in a body to the Hall occupied by a minority of the members who had already organized as the Convention, and demanded the surrender of the Hall to them as the Convention. Being refused, they adjourned again to the Council Chamber, and though a minor- ity, and therefore not a quorum, organized as the Convention. "We are the advocates of no party. We have too high a respect for the prominent members of the recusant delegation, to believe that they would lend themselves without good reasons, to the am- bitious schemes of demagogues for a party domi- nation, obtained by wicked and unjust means ; but we confess we are at a loss to understand how, even admitting for the moment, that the adjourn- ment upon which their action was predicated, was the sense of the meeting at the Capitol on Monday noon. We are at a loss to understand how i could be considered in any sense as the adjourn- ment of the Convention. There is no evidence that of all those who participated in the proceed- ing, any one was a member of the Convention. It is known that several persons were present wlio were not members. There had been no organiza- tion, no credentials had been presented. The Convention did not exist as a deliberative or par- liamentary body when that meeting adjourned, if it were an adjournment. It can only be consid- ered in its most favorable light, as the act of an informal and tumultuous assemblage of mou, speaking without organization, and therefore with- out authority. And there is not the least doubt that if every member in the Hall had voted on the motion to adjourn, prior to organization, that a majority of all the members of the Convention, this being a quorum, would still, as such quorum, be competent to remain and organize." Again, it is objected that a majority of all the members elect met and organized in the usual and parliamentary manner, and pro- ceeded to the business for which they were elected, without taking notice of the factious and discourteous conduct of the minority or its quibbles. A great deal has been said about a motion made by an individual — no one knew whether by a member of the Convention or not — be- cause the journal of the proceedings of that day's Convention, which they will present to you, does not show who were members of the Convention that day, and does not even show that any members were present, because a list of the members was never called by that individual who professed to be Chairman at that time. Had he followed the uni' versal rule, he would have called the list that day. But a motion was made to adjourn to twelve o'clock next day. It is asserted that that motion took precedence of all otherSv Now granting for the sake of the argument — nothing more — that the official who pre- tended to be the presiding officer at that time, was the presiding officer in fact. I deny that a motion to adjourn to a fixed time was % privileged motion, and I charge that those who pretend it is, know better. On page seventy-nine of Cushing's Manuel I find the following : "A motion to adjourn takes the place of all other questions whatsoever; for otherwise the assembly might be kept sitting against its will, and for an indefinite time ; but in order to entitle this motion to precedence it must be simply to adjourn without the addition of any particular day or time, and as the object of the motion, when made in the midst of some other proceeding, and with a view to supercede a question already proposed, as simply to breaking up the sitting, it does not admit of any amendments by the addition of a particular day, or in any other manner, though if a motion to adjourn is made, when no other business is before the assembly, it may be amended like other ques- tions." Now, sir, what was the motion made by a gentleman, at the time the Secretary presented himself as the presiding officer? It was a motion to adjourn to a certain day and to a certain time. Hence tliat motion could not be a privileged motion, and was not in order, as the motion made by Mr. NoiiTU that Mr. Galbkaitu be elected President pro tempore was previously made. But supposing it was, I contend that it was impossible for them to adjourn at that time. There was no Conven- tion to adjourn — no assembly to adjourn. They were simply a mass of individuals with- out organization. No one knows, or can know, who voted for or against the motion — whether they were members having a right to a scat in the Convention, or merely citizens of St. Paul. I refer again to Cdshino's Manuel, page 166, and find — MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Monday, Jlt-y 27. li?n "The reason why amotion to adjourn, moved for the purpose of superceding or suppressing a pend- ing question is not susceptible of amendment, is that if amended, it would at once become inadmis- sable in point of order, on the ground of its being introductorr to a second question, having no priv- ilege, to take the place of a question already pend- ing, and entitled to be first disposed of." I submit the testimony of an imbiased man as to the condition we were actually in at the time the motion was made. I extract from the editorial of the Advertiser^ July twenty-tifth : "Let us analyse thereon without disputing him. The point at issue is this : Was the motion for adjournment on Jlonday the 13th inst., put by Mr. Chase, in the Hall of the Convention, to the per- sons there assembled prior to organization, and declared carried by Mr. Chase— .-was this adjourn- ment of the Convention binding as the act of the Convention on all its members?" "If this were indeed so, then it is! beyond dispute that to the Democratic delegates in session at the Council Chamber, rightfully belongs the duty of framing a Constitution for Minnesota." "The act of the Convention ? By what process had the persons who met within the bar of the House become the Convention * What, and who constituted them the Convention ? We had sup- posed it to be a fundamental law of th« inception of parliaments that assemblies of men convened to transact the business of parliamentary bodies, must first become a parliamentary body before they can perform the acts of parFiamentary bodies. An adjournment binding upon the members of a par- liamentary body, as such, necessarily implies the existence of a parliamentary body. An adjourn- ment prior to organization is a thing impossible. There can be no adjournment, because there is nothing to adjourn. Will Theron, will Mr. Flax- DRAC, will the Pioneer explain to the people of Minnesota, how a number of persons congregated informally, and without organization, within the bar of the Convention, could adjourn as the Con- vention, before they existed as a Convention? Will any one tell us how such an act could be the act of a parliamentary body, obligatory on the members thereof as such, before the first step had been taken to constitute them a parliamentary body? "We repeat thatamotion for adjournment at that stage of proceedings was simply absurd. It could only be regarded in its most favorable light as an informal, and exceedingly impertinent and foolish suggestion, and the unanimous concurrence of all present in it, could be nothing more than the vol- untary dispersion of a crowd. We are sure that we are right in saying, that if the motion to ad- journ had met the unanimous concurrence of every one, the proceedings could have had no bitiding force, except as tacit agreement between individu- als, and a quorum of the inchoate convention might have reassembled at any time thereafter, and proceeded to organize without reference to it. The first and only steps which the unorganized assem- blage of individuals claiming to be members elec- ted to the Convention, was capable of taking, was the one step neceesary to organization. Xo other could come within its powers till after organiza- tion. Before that, it might disperse, or the indi- viduals who composed the meeting, might, in their individual capacity, do what they pleased, but it could not adjousn as a parliamentary body. "Throwing aside all technical tests, and reducing it to a question of legal right — what was the sense of a majority of those present at the meeting on Monday noon ? What was the sense of a majority of those present who were legally and rightfully entitled to their seats? There were fifty-five Re- publicans at least with credentials in their pockets — if six were bogus there would remain forty-nine in favor of organization. The highest number claimed by the Democrats, including several who had not credentials — was forty -five." Now, sir, when this motion to adjourn was made, a member of the Convention was oc- cupying the desk by the authority of a ma- jority of all the members elected, and by a majority of two-thirds of the members pres- ent, and that member made the motion that Mr. Galbbaith be appointed temporary Chair- man. "WhQe he was putting that motion, a gentleman in tlie assembly moved to adjourn until a certain time. As I have shown the motion to adjourn to a certain time was not a privilegetl motion, but was out of order; and not only was it out of order, but it is consid- ered by the rules, to have been a breach of order. A motion to adjourn would even have been out of order then, because the yeas and nays were being put ; and I refer to Jeffer- son's Manuel to prove that position. The motion to adjourn to a certain time was made, while the motion that Mr. GALBRAirn be temporary Chairman was being put, and even if it had been a simple motion to adjoinm without specifying the time, it would have been out of order, as I have shown, Jeffer- son's Manuel says : "A motion to adjourn simply takes place of all others ; for otherwise a House might be kept sit- ting against its will, and indefinitely. Yet the motion cannot be received after another question is actually put, and while the House is engaged in voting." Now was not the .House actually engaged in voting when the motion to adjourn to a certain time and place was made ? Then 124 MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Monday, Jult 27. was it not out of order ? Certainly it was — as decided by the best authority that can be produced. Again, Jefferson's Manuel page 161 : "It might be asked whether a motion for adjourn- ment or for the orders of the day cannot be made by one member while another is speaking. It cannot." Was there not at the time a gentleman oc- cupying the floor? Was not Mr. Noetu putting the question? Undei- three rules, then, a motion to adjourn to a certain time and place at that time, was out of order. Again, it has been the universal rule to ascertain who the members of a deliberative body are, before a motion of this character is made. I will not here refer to precedents in detail, but \\all refer to the journals and de- bates of every Constitutional Convention, and of every legislative body. They will show that the first business is to make out a hst of members. That there may have been excep- tions to that course, I will not deny ; but I have no such exception now in my mind. It has generally been conceded that there is no deliberative body, to act upon any mo- tion, except merely a motion for the appoint- ment of a temporary Chairman, and temporary Secretary, until after the roll is called, and until it was ascertained who were actually members of the body. I refer to the jour- nals of Wisconsin, Massachusetts, Ohio, In- diana, New York, Iowa and all others — cases where they were called to order both by the Secretary of State, and by members of the body itself. I here refer to the editorial of the St. Paul Advertmr of July 25. I have shown you, according to the best of my ability, at the present time, that those who present themselves to any deliberate body with certificates of election from the proper authority, are first entitled to seats — that Buch certificates are held to be prima facie evidence of their rights to seats, — to which rule there have been but few exceptions. I have shown you that the prominent leaders of the Democratic party of this Territory are cognizant of that law governing deliberative bodies, and have acted upon it, in Congress, in other Conventions, and in our Territorial Legislature. I have shown you that some of them have been personally engaged in enforc- ing that general and universal rule. Gen. Shields, a prominent member of that party, was himself admitted, under objection made, to a seat in the United States Senate. He presented himself with 2)rma facie evidence of his right to such seat. Mr. Douglas moved that he be sworn in immediately ; and he would not allow the Senate to proceed to business unless he was qualified, contending that Illinois should be represented in that body, and that immediately ; and that it was right and just that he should be admitted upon prima facie evidence, and he was ad- mitted, though afterwards it was proven that he was ineligible. I have shown you that very many of those who are assembled in the other end of the Capitol, are men of large experi- ence in legislative bodies, and have themselves assisted in establishing the universal rules I have brought to your notice. I have shown you who the persons are in this Territory from whom that 2)nma facie evidence should come, and from whom only it can come. What other conclusion then can any indi- vidual come to, from the course pursued by the Democratic leaders, than that it is their determination to prevent the immediate ad- mission of Minnesota into the Union as a sovereign and independent State ? Upon what other ground can you explain the ac- tion of those men in acting directly contrary to their own knowledge, and contrary to what is right, just, usual, parliamentary and cour- teous ? Can any one explain the matter upon any other grounds ? It has been suggested that our Representa- tive in Congress (Mr. Rice) procured the passage of the Enabhng Act, and that this was an indication that the Democratic party was in favor of our immediate admission into the Union. True, he did procure the passage of that Act, and in doing so he acted in obedi- ence to the voice of the people of this Terri- tory, and undoubtedly he and the Democratic leaders at the time thought it would be an easy matter for them to escort the new State into the Union under Democratic auspices. But an election of Delegates to this Conven- tion has since taken place, and it resulted in giving the Republicans a majority of Delegates in the Convention, and the signs of the times pretty clearly indicate that if the State was to go into the Union now, the Republicans would have the pleasure of escorting her in. MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Moxdat, July 21 125 That has become evident to the leaders of that party, and to others. Then what was the next coiu'se for them to pursue? It was to prevent the State of Minnesota, if possible, from going into the Union. It was tirst, to break up, if possible, the deliberations of tlie Constitutional Convention entirely; to withdraw from the Convention, tliinking there would not be a quorum to organize, and thus defeat the formation of a Constitution. They violated all parliamentary law, all usages, and all courtesy, yet failed in their attempts. What next? They secede from this Convention, and enter upon the formation of another Constitution, in order to confuse the minds of the people, for the purpose, apparently, of carrying the impression to the people that they are in favor of admission into tlie Union as a State, because they dare not openly violate the miiversal feeling and desire of the people. But they want to do it in an indirect manner, and the question now remains to be solved whether the people of tlus Tenitory will pennit the leaders of that party, for selfish purposes, to defeat the adoption of the Constitution which we may frame here. The reasons for the course they pursue are obvious. There are certain indi- viduals in that party who are very ambitious, and who proclaim it abroad that they must be the first United States Senators from the State of Minnesota. But now they see that prospect rapidly growing dim under the advance of the Republican party, and they are in hopes that by delajring tlie formation and adoption of a Constitution a few years longer, that their officials, their federal office holders, and their money, may bring about a diiFerent state of tilings from what exists in the Territory now, and that their chance for a seat in the United States Senate from the State of Minnesota, will be much better than it is now. But some person may ask, " Is it possible " that the leaders of that party can change so 'suddenly their course of action? They *' have heretofore acted in favor of our admis- " sion into the Union immediately, and they " have expressed themselves in favor of it." Now, sir, it is nothing new to me to see the leaders of that party change their course of action, or their views upon any subject whatever. I myself have some personal knowledge in reference to this matter. I have seen the " dictator " of that party change his mind three or four times upon one question, to accomplish certain selfish ends and objects. And I will here state that that same individual came to me some few da3-s before the meeting of this Convention, and acknowledged that they were in the minority ; that they did not expect the control of the Convention ; that we had two majority, even if they had what they claimed — four seats from St. Anthony, and the delegates from Pembina ; but the delegates from Pembina were not entitled to seats, according to his o\vn judgment, though if the party contended for them he would have to. And that very same ^^ dictator" has since acknowledged that fourteen of their members were not present, and that there were fifty-six of our members present at the first meeting on Monday, the thirteenth inst., — that being four majority of all the mem- bers elect. He knew that his party was to be in the minority, and knowing it, he came to me individually and requested an interview with me after my election as President of this body, to permit him to suggest certain posi- tions he wished to occupy upon the commit- tees — hoping to have a ])roniinent place upon the committees, in case he did not succeed in making his party follow him in his attempt to break up the Constitutional Convention altogether. Again, it is notliing new for that individual who is now the acknowledged leader of that party, to change his position upon any sub- ject, or his course of action, or his pohcy. I recollect very well having been a member of the Council a year ago last winter, when the subject of giving the old North-Western Rail- road Company an opportunity of getting a foothold in this Territory came up for consid- eration. Many of us were entirely opposed to it, and that very " dictator " of that party had been for a long time professedly opposed to it. But, sir, after much bitter strife and contention over the matter upon both sides, he deserted us and signed the bill which they asked him to sign. Again, I can very well remember when that individual was professedly in favor of a north and south line division of this Territory. But a short time after he came out in favor of an east and west. Knowing that to be the 126 mNNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Monday, July 27. universal view of Southern Minnesota, he hoped to court some favor with her, and gain her support for him to the United States Senate at some future time. He then stated that the only reason why he had heretofore been in favor of a north and south line was that he thought it was going to be a better line for the Democratic party ; but that he had come to the conclusion to sacrifice party interests for the interests of the Territory. Then, sir, but a few months after he had proclaimed himself in favor of an east and west line, we hear that he has promised to vote for a north and south line in the event of his election to this Constitutional Con- vention. He deserted Southern Minnesota then, and that very movement of his, he having been a prominent individual in the Territory, and having taken a prominent position in favor of an east and west line, made it impossible to make any successful struggle against a north and south line division. Southern Minnesota may give him the credit of having defeated her wishes in that mattef. Again sir, I happened to have been a mem- ber of the Council last winter when the ques- tion of removing the seat of government was mooted. I was in favor of its removal, and I do not deny that I am still in favor of it, upon the general principle that the seat of government of any State or Territory should not be at the commercial metropolis of that State or Territory. And I have another rea- son which I will express to my St. Paul friends, and that is, that they have always been con- trolled in their political action here by a class of men who have always some traps set for the country members — by men who are always up to this border ruffian kind of trick- ery — this kind of skullduggery, as it is called in Minnesota. And now St. Paul allows her- self to be controlled by these same border ruflian politicians. Members who come from the country are met at the threshold with some trap and snare. But I digress from the point. I said I was in favor of the removal, but I wish to state that I was not, as represented by that dicta- tor, the first one to moot that question. I did not favor that movement until after it had been discussed in private circles for some length of time, and until I had ascertained that I had to take one side or the other, and I finally took the side that my own inclina- tions dictated. The "dictator" of the other party, to my own personal knowledge, was in favor of the removal from the very begin- ning and inception of the agitation upon that subject. To my personal knowledge he was the adviser of the Saint Peter Company from the beginning of that struggle to the end of it. To my personal knowledge, he was the one who drafted that bill as it passed, with the exception of some minor amendments which were made to it. He says to the Saint Peter Company : " Gentlemen, let me appar- "ently stand in the back ground ; I am Gover- "nor, and I do not want it to appear that I am "very anxious in the matter; but if you want "my assistance at any time when there is a "hard job before you, I am ready — I do not "want to say much about this matter, but I "am willing to meet you in your deliberations "on this matter, though I do not wish to have "it go forth that as Governor I am working for "the removal of this Capitol." I personally know that this leader advised in the whole matter, and that his advice was generally taken. He was looked up to as the best man- ager in the matter. I have it sir, in black and white in my own house, that he was in favor of it. I have even seen him since I have been in this city within the last three weeks distributing Revekdy Johnson's opin- ion upon the subject of the removal. He presented me with a copy. I personally know that he obtained a copy of the act as it passed, with all the objections of the presiding officers, with the very object of going to Washington and obtaining the opinion of learned and legal gentleman upon the IcgaUty of that bill. But, sir, after a few months we find a denial by that gentleman, that he was in favor of a removal at aU. He says he thought it was a premature movement, and that he thought it would fall still-born ; that ho knew it would not succeed ; that he advised accordingly; and he attributes the Avhole movement to the Black Republicans. He deserted his friends in that movement, changed his course, and for what ? To ac- complish a selfish end at the time — to accom- plish his election as a member of this Con- vention, thinking that that very election would place him as " dictator " in the party, wliich it has. In one sense of the word per- MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Monday, July 27. 127 haps it was a slirewd movement. He denied that he was in favor of the removal, and said he signed the bill reluctantly; that he was driven to it because somebody in St. Paul had threatened violence if he did, and that he must show he was not a coward. Tliis de- sertion of the friends of the removal will make it impossible to accomplish that end for some time to come. Now I submit, after men who are the acknowledged leaders of that party, have changed their views and course of ac- tion upon so many questions of the day, whether it is anything strange, after having been once in favor of the immediate admission of Minnesota into the Union, they should tm"n about and try to prevent it ? Is it not in exact accordance with the action of the leaders of that party in the past ? They will shift as many times as they think necessary to accomplish some personal and party end. Now, sir, I say the people should know that such is their intention at tliis time ; that they do intend to prevent, if possible, this Territory from coming in as a State at this time. And it is for this purpose and no other tliat I have attempted to make a few remarks. I presented the resolution to which I have spoken, for the purpose of waking up the people upon this subject, and having them express their views in their various counties and districts in condemnation of the course the democratic leaders, and democratic party are taking to accomplish selfish and party objects. Ought the great interest of this Territory to be sacrificed to the accomplish- ment of these selfish objects ? Ought our railroad, our commercial and our financial interests be sacrificed to promote the perso- nal ambition of some party leaders ? I hope the resolution will be passed and that each one of us will hereafter let our con- stituents know fully what is transpiring here. We stand in a position where we are cogni- zant of all that transpires, and it is our duty to let the people know what plottings are tak- ing place against their interests. We are here where we can find out all the movements of tliat party before and since our organiza- tion ; and we are perhaps better able to judge what the object of those leaders are, than our friends at home are, who are attending to their own private affairs. The people at home are under the impression that every body is in favor of coming into the Union as a State as soon as possible, and that there are no politicians seeking to prevent it. I say their minds should be disabused, and it is for that purpose, and that purpose alone, that I make these remarks to-day. I move that this resolution lie upon the table for the present. I \vish to hear others upon it, and I make the motion in order to give a favorable opportunity for discussing it. The motion was agreed to, and the resolu- tion was laid on the table. And then, on motion of Mr. CLEGHORN, (at one o'clock) the Convention adjourned until two o'clock. AFTERNOON SESSION. The Convention met at two o'clock. KEPORT OF COMMITTEE. Mr. MORGAN, from the committee on the Organization and Government of Cities and Villages, made the following report which was read a first and second time, and laid upon the table to be printed, viz : The committee on the Organization of Cities and Villaf es, beg leave to report the following sec- tion to be inserted in the Constitution : Sectio.v 1. The Legislature shall grant no Act of Incorporation establishing the form of a city government for any place or portion of territory, which at the time does not contain a resident popu- lation of not less than three thousand. Xor shall the Legislature grant any special act for the incor- poration of any town or village which does not at the time contain a . resident population of not less than five hundred. All of which is respectfully submitted. PEEAMBLE AND BILL OF RIGHTS. On motion of Mr. SECOMBE, the Conven- tion resolved itself into a committee of the Whole, on the report of the committee on. the Preamble and Bill of Rights. (Mr. Morgan in the Chair), and resumed the consideration of said bill at the point where the committee left it at its last sitting. The pending ques- tion being upon the amendment to the thir- teenth section, offered by Mr. Wilson to add thereto the words — " The jury or commissioners assessing the dam- ages shall not take into consideration any advan- tage which may arise to the owner on account of the improvement for which it is taken." Mr. HARDING. I move to amend the amendment by adding thereto the foUowing : " And no property shall be taken possession of for public use until the damages assessed shall have been tendered." li MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Monday, Jlly 27. The amendment to the amendment was re- jected. The amendment was not agi*eed to. Mr. CLEGIIORN. I move that the com- mittee now rise and report the report to the Convention. Mr. SECOMBE. I will move an amend- ment, which I presume the gentleman will ac- cept, and that is, withi a recommendation that the various amendments made by the com- mittee of the Whole be adopted. Mr. CLEGHORN. I accept the amendment. The motion was agreed to. So the committee rose, and the President having resumed the Chair, the Chairman of the committee reported that the committee had had imder consideration the report of the standing committee to whom was referred that portion of the Constitution relating to the Preamble and Bill of Rights, that they had made sundry amendments thfireto, and had directed him to report the same to the Convention, with a reconmiendation that the amendments be agreed to. Mr. SECOMBE. Under the rule I'believe the report lies over one day before it can be acted upon. The PRESIDENT. After a bill is reported back to the Convention from the committee of the Whole, the first question is upon the adoption of the amendments recommended by such coumiittee, vmless some other dispo- sition of the report be made. Mr. MORGAN. The Chairman of the committee (Mr. Coggswell) who reported this Preamble and Bill of Rights is not now here to give his reasons in favor of the various sec- tions of this report. A good many other members are also absent to-day, and it seems to me that when we take final action upon this part of the Constitution there should be as many members present as we can get to- gether at any one time. I therefore move that the report do lie upon the table. The motion was agreed to, and the report was laid upon the table. EXECUTIVE DEPARTMENT. On motion of Mr. BATES, the Convention resolved itself into a committee of the Whole. (Mr. NoBTii in the chair) upon the report of the committee to whom was referred that jjart of the Constitution relating to the Executive Department. The report was read by sections for con- sideration and amendment. {For report^ see proceedings of 22d July.) Section 1. The executive power shall be vested in a Governor, who shall hold his office for two years. A Lieutenant Governor shall be elected at the same time, and for the same term. Mr. SECOMBE. I move to strike out " two" and insert " three." The amendment was not agreed to. Sec. 2. No person except a citizen of the United States, shall be eligible to the office of Governor, nor shall any person be eligible to that office, who has not attained the age of thirty years, and who shall not have been one year next preceding his election, a resident within the State, or a resident at the time of the adoption of this Constitution. Mr. HOLLEY. I move to amend that sec- tion by striking out the words " citizen of the " United States," and insert " citizen of this " State." The amendment was not agreed to. Mr. BOBBINS. I move to amend by strik- ing out all after the word " State" in the fifth line. Mr. MORGAN. The clause proposed to to be stricken out was inserted by the com- mittee with reference to the election of the first Governor, as there might be a question whether there would be any person eligible to the office of Governor, at the first election, without that clause. The preceding part re- quires the person to have been a resident of the State for one year next preceding his elec- tion. There could probably be no person having 'that qualification at our first election of State officers. The amendment was not agreed to. Mr. WILSON. I move to strike out the word " one" and insert " three." If this Constitution were not expected to remain in force for a number of years I should not wish the change I propose. But in a few years from this I do not think it would be well or proper that a man coming into our State and being a resident for only one year, should be eligible to the office of Governor. We could not become sufficiently acquainted with such a man in that length of time. I think, too, that the one year resident qualifi- cation is unprecedented. I have not particu- larly examined the point, but I do not recollect of ever seeing it before. Whether there is a precedent or not, I do not think it is proper. MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Monday, July 27. 129 The amendment was rejected. Mr. DAVIS. I move to amend by strik- ing out the word " thirty" and inserting " twenty-five. The amendment was rejected. Mr. DAVIS. Of course I supposed that every member who had attained the age of thirty would vote against my amendment. (Laughter.) CLEGHORN. I move to strike out the word " thirty" and insert " twenty-one." The amendment was not agreed to. Mr. DICKERSON moved to strike out the word " one" and insert " two." The amendment was agreed to. Mr. BALCOMBE. I move to strike out the words " who has not attained the age of thirty years." Mr. SECOMBE. I rise to a point of order. We have voted down one amendment equiva- lent to that, and I contend that this amend- ment is not in order. Mr. B-U.COMBE. I believe that an amend- ment to strike out certain words is not equiva- lent to a motion to strike out and insert others in their place. The CHAIRMAN. The Chair thinks the point of order is not well taken. Mr. BILLINGS. I caU for the reading of the thirty -ninth rule. The rule was read as follows : " A motion to strike out and insert shall be deemed indivisible ; but a motion to strike out being lost shall neither preclude amendment, nor a motion to strike out and insert." The CHAIRMAN. The Chair thinks that the amendment is in order. Mr. BALCOMBE. I am pretty positive that I am correct in the position that after a motion has been made to strike out and insert, I have the right to make the simple motion to strike out without inserting any- thing. Mr. SECOMBE. Ordinarily I should not differ with the gentleman from "Winona upon that point. But I put my objection now upon the principle that where the committee have refused to adopt a certain amendment, the same amendment or an equivalent one cannot be offered, the committee having expressed their wish that such an amendment shall not be adopted. Now an amendment was offered to strike out *' thirty," and insert " twenty- 17 one," which would make any person of the age of twenty-one years eligible to the office of Governor, if he had the other qualifica- tions. The amendment now offered by the gentleman from TTinona is to the same effect. Mr. BALCOMBE. I believe the Chair decided my amendment in order. I am opposed to putting any restraint upon the action of the people in the election of their servants, but I am in favor of putting into the Constitution all possible restrictions upon the actions and movements of the servants themselves, upon the Legislature, the Gover- nor, the Secretary, and all other officers. I am as ready and anxious to restrict the action of those officers as perhaps any gentleman upon this floor, but I would not restrict the people themselves, in the election of their servants. They should have a firee choice. If they desire to elect a man twenty -one, twenty -five, or fifty years of age, let them do so. Mr. ALDRICH. I agree with the gentle- man who has last spoken, and I do not see any good reason why a man twenty-one twenty-two, or twenty-three years of age, should not have the privilege of being elected Governor if the people desire it ; for I take it that the people would not elect such a man unless he was qualified for the office. I find by reference to the Constitution of Wisconsin there is no limit as to age in reference to the eligibility of Governor. I believe the people of Minnesota are as intelligent as any other people, and wiU know when a man is quali- fied to discharge the duties of the office of Governor. I am in favor of " Young Amer- ica" myself and of giving my fi:iend Davis here a chance, believing that he is K, and all " right on the goose." Mr. DAVIS. I thank the gentleman for his kind offer for support, but I will inform him that I do not expect to be a candidate this &11, but shall wait imtil the next election, and I suggest that if this gentleman himself should happen to be a candidate for the office, I warrant him the support of all " Young America;" and I would also suggest to gen- tlemen who voted against the amendment, adopting twenty-one years, that they had better look at home and see if they have not some " Young Americans " in their region, 180 MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Mondat, July 27. and if they have, I hope to mercy, they wiU all be found arrayed against those who adhere to the thirty year quaUtication. I am in favor of the amendment, and I think there ai'e many men who have attained the age of twenty- one, who are as well qualified, as those who have attained the age of thirty. Mr. WILSON. I think that the idea that a man is as well qualified for office at the age of twenty-one as he is at thirty, is not saying much for progression. We know from our general knowledge of things, that few men at twenty-one know enough about government, or know enough about htmian nature, to resist those snares and temptations which are thrown around Governors. I go with all my heart for thirty years, and I do not believe that one out of a thousand is qualified for that office before he arrives at that age. Mr. DAVIS. I would inform the gentle- man that I said rnany men, not all men. And by the way, I take it tliat the gentleman is above the age of thirty. (Laughter.) Mr. BATES. I am as much in favor of the liberty of the people as any man, but I think that this restriction is a wise one. The feeling of Young America among us is quite prominent, and vmder the excitement of that feeling, an incompetent man might be pre- sented as an independent candidate, and might be elected, when there would be no chance for him if this restriction is imposed. If we are to throw aside this limit, why, I say throw aside all limits. Why make two years residence a qualification, and why re- quire a man to be a certain time within the Tenitory ? If one restriction is to be taken off, I go for taking off all restrictions. Mr. BALCOMBE. I am in favor of per- mitting the people, if they see fit to do so in their sovereign capacity, to elect any legal voter, I am perfectly willing that they should act their pleasure in that matter. I think that the qualification of two years resi- dence should also be stricken out. If a man has become a legal voter he ought to be eligi- ble to any office in the State. I disclaim any connection with this particu- lar anxiety about Young America, and I hope this question will not be decided upon that point. I hope it will be decided upon the principle of giving the people their own desire in this matter, and that they will be permit- ted to act freely without restriction or restraint. Mr. DICKERSON. As a general thing our judgments are much more mature at the age of thirty than they are at twenty-one or twenty-five, and for my part I hope the amendment will not prevail. Mr. PERKINS. If the idea "of the Con- vention is to encourage and foster Young America, why not go down to the age of ten years or thereabouts. They are more Young Americans from ten to twenty-one than at any other time. The idea that the people- should have the greatest liberty, would apply just as well to all other provisions of the Con- stitution as to this. Take away your Bill of Rights and remove the Constitution itself, for they are restrictions thrown around the actions of the people, and say that the people may settle those matters hereafter. If they wish the writ of habeas corpus suspended during time of war, let them suspend it. If they want dueling established here, let them establish it. Do not throw any restrictions in the way of the people. Now that argu- ment ought not to weigh in the mind of the Convention. There may be cases where a man at the age of twenty-one may be better qualified for the office of Governor than some who may get into the Governor's chair at the age of thirty. But if any time is to be set, this Convention ought to resolve that a man is qualified for that office at the age of thirty if he is ever qualified. It seems to me that as a general tjiing, men do not become sufficiently mature for that office until the age of thirt}^, Mr. BALCOMBE. In the Bill of Rights we guarantee to the people certain rights, and we refuse to bestow upon the Legislature, upon the Judges, and the rulers, the right or power of taking from them certain liberties, and certain inalienable rights. But that is a different matter altogether from what is pro- posed in this section. Tliis is saying to the people that though they should be in favor of a certain person for Governor, they shall not have him, unless he is of a certain age. In the Bill of Rights we guarantee the people certain rights against those whom they clothe with a little authority. That is proper for us to do, and, as I said before, I would go as far as any man to restrain the actions of those rulers and servants. MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Monday, July 2T. 181 Mr. PECKHAM. The office of Governor will be % highest in the gift of the people, and it seems to me that it will be no favor to the young man to advance liini to the top- most round of the ladder at the outset. If there is a man of ability in the State of the age of twenty -one years, his services will be wanted by the State for many years, but if he is advanced to the highest office at once, it \Y\]1 be readily seen that liis services will not be enjoyed by the State for so long a time as they would be if he passed through the sub- ordinate offices first It is an old remark that the captain of a vessel, who creeps in at the cabin window, is not so well qualified to command a ship, as he who advances through successive grades up to captain. So it is in regard to the office of Governor. He should have experience, and be prepared for the office by taking the preparatory steps. The question was taken on Mr. Balcombe's amendment, and it was not agi'eed to. Mr. HARDING. I move to strike out the word " state" where it last occurs, and insert the word " territory," and strike out the bal- ance of the section. Mr. COLBURN. I shall be obliged to oppose that amendment upon the same ground that the gentleman from VTinona advocated the other. If the people choose to elect a Governor who has not been a resident of the Territory more than a year or six months, they ought to have the right to do so. Had the one year residence qualification been retained, I should not be so much opposed to the amendment. If the amendment should be adopted, no man can be elected Governor at the first election who has not been a resi- dent for two years. The amendment was rejected. Mr. WILSON. I move to strike out the whole section and insert — " Xo person shall be eligible to the office of Governor, who has not been a resident of the Territory two years, and who is not a citizen of the United States, or who shall not be a resident of this State at the time of the adoption of this Constitution." The amendment was not agreed to. Sec. 7. The Lieutenant-Governor shall possess the same qualifications of eligibility for office as the Governor. He shall be President of the Senate, but shall only have a casting vote therein. If during a vacancy of the office of Governor, the Lieutenant-Governor shall be impeached, dis- placed, resign, die, or become incapable of per- forming the duties of his office, or be absent from the State, the President of the Senate shall act as Governor until the vacancy be filled, or the disa- bility shall cease. Mr. COLBURN. I move that the seventh section be stricken out. My object is not to get rid of the whole of that section. If it is stricken out, I shall move, when the next section comes up for consideration, to insert in it such parts of this section as I wish to retain. I am opposed to the Lieutenant Gov- ernor acting as President of the Senate. I believe every deliberative body should have the right of selecting then- own presiding officer. It is very important that there should always exist a good feeling and understand- ing between the presiding officer of a deliber- ative body and a majority of the members. The Lieutenant Governor is usually nomina- ted with a particular view to his qualifications for the executive department, whereas • the President of the Senate should be elected with a view to his qualifications as a presiding officer. Now the qualifications for the two offices are entirely unlike. A man may be a good executive officer, and yet be entirely unqualified to be a good presiding officer of a a deliberative body» while on the other hand a man who has those peculiar qualities and talents which fit him for a presiding officer, may lack the qualities of an executive officer. And not only that, but this report provides that the Governor and the Lieutenant-Gover- nor shall hold their offices for two years. If this section is adopted it may happen that we shall have a presiding officer of the Senate whose political \aews may be opposed to those of a majority of the Senate. It may be that when the Lieutenant-Governor and the Senate are elected, they may be of the same political views, but it may happen that during the first year vacancies may occur in the Senate, and when the vacancies are filled, the political complexion of the majority may be changed, and thereby the President of the Senate and a majority of the Senate wovild be of diffijrent political parties. Now I hold that the Senate should have the privilege of electing a presi- ding officer of their own political views. I hope the committee will consider the matter fully and carefully before they act upon it. There are other views which might be urged against making the Lieutenant- 182 MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Monday, July 27. Governor President of the Senate, but these are suflBcient, I think, to induce the committee to vote to strike out this section. Mr. STANNARD. I hope the motion will not prevail, not so much that I am opposed to innovation, as that I think that the more stability we can give to deliberative bodies the better, so far as the formation of this Consti- tution is concerned. I hope every member of this body will lay aside all political con- siderations. Mr. BALCOMBE. I hope the motion will prevail. I am not only in favor of the people electing the President of the Senate, but I am also in favor of their electing the Speaker of the House of Representatives. I think the presiding officer should feel himself under obligation to every part and every portion of the State, and should not be the particular and immediate representative of any particular portion of it. Having had some experience in these matters, and having set one session as a member of the Cooncil under a presiding officer, when a particular question came before that body, I came to the conclusion that as a general rule the people would elect better presiding officers than the body itself, because it will be the object of the people to nominate men peculiarly fitted for that office, in order that they may bring strength to the ticket upon which they run. If so elected, he would be more impartial, and less under obligation to particular localities. The election of officers of the Senate and House of Representatives are generally conducted upon the principle of " you vote for me and my candidate, and I "will vote for you and your candidate." It is the buy and sell system — a sort of log- rolling. A man is not generally elected because he is better qualified for that position than any other member of the body, but probably because he may be a little shrewder in seeking for the station, or because he has the advantage of locality. And generally he is elected under the influence of those in the government, wherever it is. This may not, to the iminitiated appear to be so, but it is nevertheless the case, and I want to see the election of these officers put out of the reach of a few individuals, a few political tricksters who may be hanging around. Mr. COLBURN, I simply desire to say, as the gentleman's main objection is, that the election of officers by the bodies themselves is a system of log-rolling, traffic and trade, that I do not believe there ever was a system of log-rolling, traffic and trade, carried on in the election of a presiding officer to a greater extent than in political caucuses and conven- tions. It may not be done in precisely the same manner, but it will be done upon the principle of "if you will vote for a man from " my section for this office, I will vote for a ' ' man from your section for that office.' ' And the system will be carried on to a greater extent too, because those caucuses will be larger than the caucuses in these bodies. Mr. ALDRICH. In eveiy State of the Union where they have a Lieutenant-Governor, he is by law made President of the Senate, except in the State of Rhode Island. So also the Vice-President of the United States is President of the Senate of the United States. The committee inserted this section because its provisions were recommended to them by the practice of all the States. Unless he is made President of the Senate, I should be in favor of striking out from the report every- thing that relates to him. Mr. BILLINGS. I move to amend by striking out the words, " He shall be President of the Senate, but shall have only a casting vote therein." Mr. COLBURN. I withdraw, then, my amendment, and allow the question to be taken upon the one just oflfered. Mr. ALDRICH. The objection is made that the President of the Senate may be of a different political party than the majority of the body. But I take it for granted that the members of that body are to be elected for the same time with the Governor and Lieu- tenant-Governor, But whether that is the case or not, I do not see that it makes any great difference if he should belong to an- other party. Mr. COLBURN. It may be true that they would be elected the same year, and yet a majority of the Senate, elected by districts, might be of a different political complexion from the Lieutenant-Governor, who is elected by a general ticket. It should also be remem- bered that the President of the Senate has the appointment of committees. If he belongs to a different political party, his friends will demand that he shall favor them upon the MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Monday, Jcly 27. 133 committees, and that a majority of his political friends shall be appointed upon them. It does seem to me improper that a presiding oflBcer should belong to a different political party from that of a majority of the body over which he presides. Suppose that this year a Lieutenant-Governor is elected by the people of the State, and he and the Senate agree in politics. But vacancies may occur during the year in the Senate. At our next annual election we fill those vacancies by the election of men of a different party from those who occupied the seats at the time the Lieutenant-Governor was elected. Then dur- ing the second year that officer presided over the Senate, he would not agree with them in political views. Such a case may occur, for the political opinions of the people may change, and that change may be manifested in filling those vacancies. Mr. BILLINGS. It seems to me that we are providing for three offices to be filled by two officers. In case the Grovemor dies, the Lieutenant-Governor fiUs his place, and then he holds two offices — that of Governor, and President of the Senate. Mr. STANNARD. As far as any incon- sistency arising from the language of this section is concerned, I think it is all correct. It provides that if a vacancy shall occurr in the office of Governor, the Lieutenant- Governor shall be Governor of the State, and of course he cannot be President of the Senate. The Senate then appoints one of then- own body President. If, during a vacancy in the office of Governor, the Lieutenant- Governor shall be impeached die or resign, then the President of the Senate who shall preside at the time, vrill be the Chief Executive officer of the State. Mr. MORGAN. The construction of the words in this section is similar to the construc- tion of similar provisions in the Constitutions of the different States, and I believe it is verbatim the same as the section upon the same subject in the Constitution of the State of New York. The committee do not claim much ori^ality in this report. Its provisions have been copied mainly from the Consti- tutions of other States. When the Governor dies the Lieutenant-Governor becomes Gov- ernor, de facto ^ and then a President of the Senate is chosen by that body itself, and he, in case of the death of the Lieutenant- Governor, becomes Governor. Mr. ALDRICH. The provision in the New York Constitution is in these words : " The Lieutenant-Governor shall not possess the same qualifications of eligibility for office as the Governor. He shall be President of the Senate but shall only have a casting vote therein. If dur- ing a vacancy of the office of Governor, the Lieu- tenant Governor shall be impeached, displaced, resign, die, or be absent from the State, the Presi- dent of the Senate shall act as Governor, untd the vacancy be filled or the disability shall cease." Mr. COLBURN. It seems to me that notwithstanding that is taken from the Con- stitution of New York, difficulties may arise in its practical working. Perhaps no difficul- ties have arisen there, but still a difficulty may arise TVe will suppose the legislative session has adjourned, and immediately after the adjournment, the Governor dies. The Lieutenant Governor of course assumes the position of Governor. Then the Senate have no President. Now suppose while the Lieu- tenant Governor is acting as Governor, he is impeached or should die, what will you do ? The provision says the President of the Sen- ate shall be the Governor; but the Senate have no President as they have not been in session since the death of the Governor. Perhaps no such event as that has transpired in New York but there is a liability of it. But I did not propose to occupy further time in discussion. The gentleman says that Rhode Island is the only State in which the Lieuten- ant Governor does not act as President of the Senate. I can inform the gentleman that Massachusetts always elects a President of the Senate, and she has a Lieutenant Gover- nor also. Mr. MORGAN. I think I can explain the mode in which the difficulty suggested by the gentleman is obviated. Before the adjourn- ment of the Senate of the New York Legis- lature, it is always customary for the Lieuten- ant Governor, who is the presiding officer of that body, to withdraw for an hour or so be- fore the adjournment, and a temporary Pres- ident is always chosen. That too, I believe, is the practice in the Senate of the United States. ilr. ALDRICH. I would remark that if a majority of the Senate are politically op- posed to the Lieutenant Governor, they can 134 MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Monday, July 27. at any time take the power of the appoint- ment of committees out of his hands. The question was then taken upon the amendment and it was not agreed to. Sec. 8. The Lieutenant-Governor shall, while acting as such, receive a compensation which shall be fixed by law, and Avhicli shall not be increased or diminished during his continuance in office. Mr. STANNARD. I move to amend that section by striking out the words "continu- *' ance in" and insert in lieu thereof the words " term of." The amendment was adopted. Sec. 9. Every bill which shall have passed the Senate and the House of Representatives, shall, before it becomes a law, be presented to the Gov- ernor; if he approve, he shall sign it; but if not, he shall return it with the objections to that House in which it shall have originated, who shall enter the objections at large on their journal, and pro- ceed to reconsider it. If after such reconsidera- tion, two-thirds of the members present shall agree to pass the bill, it shall be sent, together with the objections, to the other House, by which it shall likewise be reconsidered, and if approved by two-thirds of all the members present, it shall become a law, notwithstanding the objections of the Governor. But in all such cases the votes of both Houses shall be determined by yeas and nays, and the names of the members voting for and against the bill, shall be entered on the journal of each House respectively. If any bill shall not be returned by the Governor within three days (Sun- days excepted) after it shall have been presented to him, the same shall be a law, in like manner as if he had signed it, unless the Legislature shall, by their adjournment, prevent the return; in which case it shall not be a law. Mr. SECOMBE. I move to strike out section nine. My reason is this : that the section seems to me more properly to belong under the head of the Legislative Department, and a similar section has been incorporated into the report of the committee upon that department. The duties which devolve upon the Governor are rather legislative than ex- ecutive. Mr. STANNARD. I want to know if the Governor does anything but what is execu- tive? Mr. MORGAN. It seems to me that a section defining the duties of Governor should come under the head of the Executive De- partment. That is the head under which tliis provision is usually found in most Constitu- tions, It is true that the same subject has been reported upon by another committee. The amendment was not agreed to. Mr. VAUGHN. As this report has now been gone through with, I move to go back and amend the third section adding to the section the words : " The returns of election for Governor and Lieu- tenant-Governor shall be made in such manner as shall be provided by law." Mr. ALDRICH. How are the returns to be made at the first election ? Mr. COLBURN. That will have no bear- ing upon the first election, and does not pro- vide for the difficulties which arise in making the returns of that election, and after that time the returns will have to be made accord- ing to law anyway. I see no necessity for the amendment. Mr. BALCOMBE. I think the difficulty in regard to the first election can be obviated when we come to the consideration of the schedule. That is the proper place for it, but tliis is not. Mr. STANNARD. This Constitution will be all the law we shall have upon the matter. Mr. ALDRICH. It seems to me that this amendment would complicate the difficulties. Mr. STANNARD. By inserting it here, it only leaves the matter open for future Legis- latures to prescribe the manner in which the returns shall be made. It cannot injuriously effect the returns of the first election of Gov- ernor, because this constitution will be the law and the only law upon the subject. Mr. BALCOMBE. I am in favor of the present amendment, but gentlemen ask the question, what shall^be done with the returns of the first election. I think that matter can appropriately be considered and arranged un- der the head of Schedule. It should not be inserted here but should be left for a separate article. Mr. PERKINS. I move, as an amendment to the amendment, the insertion of the words "all elections after the first." That will settle the question which has arisen here. Mr. BALCOMBE. I am opposed to that. I still insist that there should not be a word in the body of the Constitution as to the transition State — the manner in which we shall change our form of government — until we come to the Schedule. Mr. PERKINS. The original amendment applies to all elections after the first, and the MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Mondat, July 27. 135 question arises whether it would have any ap- plication to the first or not. To save that question I moved my amendment. I believe that it is not unusual to have such words in Constitutions. The CHAIRMAN. The amendment can- not be considered imtil it is passed up in writing. The question was taken on Mr. Vacgex's amendment and it was lost. Mr. BATES. I move to amend the first section by inserting after the word "years," the words *' and until his successor shall be "qualified," so as to make the Governor's office continue until the qualification of his successor. The amendment was agreed to. Mr. PECKHAM. I move to amend the ninth section by striking out the words " two- thirds" wherever they occur, and insert in heu thereof the word "majority" so as to allow a majority of both Houses to pass a bill over the Governor's veto. The amendment was rejected. Mr. BILLINGS moved to strike out the words " shall have" in the same section, so that it should read " shall retmrn it to the " House in which it originated." The amendment was agreed to. Mr. MORGAN. I now move that the com- mittee rise and report the report and amend- ments to the Convention with a recommenda- tion that they be adopted. The motion was carried. The committee accordingly rose and through their Chairman [Mr. NortS] reported back the report and amendments, with a recom- mendation that they be adopted. Mr. CLEGHORN. I move that the report be laid upon the table, and that it be made the special order of the day for Thursday next. Mr. STANNARD. Is that motion deba- table? The PRESIDENT. The Chair thinks not. Mr. STANNARD. I understand that the Convention has accepted the report. Now, sir, I do not rise to a question of order, but I do consider it a great evil to have a report, when made to the Convention, lie over for several days before it is considered. The report of the committee, laid upon our desks does not contain the amendments which have been made by the committee of the Whole. They are only in our memories, as it were, and I submit to you and to others, if it is not the usual and the better course to concur in the amendments made in committee of the "Whole, immediately upon the reception of the report and amendments? All these amend- ments are now fresh in our minds, and to delay their consideration to a subsequent day, is a loose and careless way of doing business^ Mr. ALDRICH. It seems to me that while the matter is fresh in our minds we had bet- ter go to work and dispose of it. "We have time to go through tliis report to-day. If we do so, we shall be ready in the morning to take up something else. I hope the gentle- man will withdraw his motion unless there is some good reason for it. Mr. WILSON. I think myself it is better to go on now. Mr. CLEGHORN. I do not withdraw the motion. The motion was not agreed to. The Convention then proceeded to the con- sideration of the amendments as follows : First amendment. — Insert after the word "years" in the second line of the first section, the words " and until his successor shall be appointed." The amendment was concurred in. Second amendment. — Strike out the word "one" in the first section, and insert the word " two," so as to require two years residence as a qualifier- ^ tion for Governor, Mr. MORGAN. I hope the amendment will not be concurred in. It seems to me that the people of this State ought to have the privilege of electing a man who has been in the State twenty or twenty-two months if they choose to do so. This Territory has been very recently settled, and many of its inhabitants have been here but comparatively a short time, and therefore it seems to me that we ought not to be restricted to two years residence. I think one year's residence is sufficient. Mr. WILSON. I would rather have two years than one, and three years than two. This Constitution will probably last for years, and after a while when our State becomes settled, it will be impossible for the people to obtain that knowledge of a candidate for Gov- ernor, who has been in the State one year, as will enable them to vote intelligently. That is a very short time. Some demagogue may come among us and get the nomination, whom 136 MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Monday, July 27. we are not acquainted with, and who ought not to be elected. The amendment was concurred in. Third amendment. — Strike out the words "con- tinuance in," and insert the words "term of." Mr. NORTH. There may be some ques- tion whether that would refer to the time he is acting as Governor, or when he is in his position of Lieutenant • Governor. Should not the section read — "The Lieu- tenant Governor shall, while acting "as Governor, receive" &c. I move to amend so that the section shall read in that manner. The PKESIDENT. The Chair would sug- gest that while acting as Governor, he would receive the compensation fixed by law for Governor. Mr. NORTH. Then as there are no duties assigned to the Lieutenant Governor, I shall, at the proper time, move to strike out the provisions relating to that oflBcer entirely. Mr. ALDRIOH. The seventh section pro- vides that he shall be President of the Sen- ate, and while he serves in such capacity, he shall receive a salary. Mr. NORTH. I was under the impression that that provision had been striken out. Mr. ALDRICH. The amendment to that effect was rejected. Mr. MORGAN. The same provision as to the compensation of the Governor occurs at the end of the fourth section. The words of that provision were taken either from the Constitution of New York, or that of Wis- consin. It seems tome that the words "term of" do not materially alter the matter. But there may be some question as to whether his "term of office," and "continuance in oflSce," apply to the same period of time. ' I think it safer to leave the matter as it is in the section. Mr. ST ANN ARD. According to the amend- ment which has been adopted to the first section, the Governor holds his oJBfice two years. That I understand to be his term of office ; though it also provides that he shall hold his office until his successor shall be qualified. Now if the Legislature, during the two years for which he was elected, should increase the salary of his successor, and the person subsequently elected should refuse to qualify, I am not disposed to deprive the Gov- ernor who holds on to the ofiBce, of the emol- uments which result in consequence of the additional increased pay so provided for. The amendment was agreed to. Fourth Amendment. — In section nine strike out the words, " shall have," so as to make the clause read, "shall return it with his objections to tlie house in which it originated." Mr. STANNARD. I hope the amendment will not prevail. It seems to me that the phraseology is much better than it is now, and I am not entirely clear but it conveys the same idea. I do not think a bill originates anything. It is itself originated^ and I think that the words, as they are, should be retained. Mr. MORGAN. I think the section, as it is printed is gramatically correct. It has reference to the action of future Legislatures, and not to past ones. It relates to some action which shall have been performed by by some future Legislature. Mr. WILSON. I hope, by all means, that this amendment will not be concurred in. I think the section is correctly worded, and for the reasons assigned by the gentleman who last spoke. It says : " But if not, he shall return it with his objections to that house in which it shall have originated." — In which it shall, prior to^that future time, have originated. It is evidently good gram- mar, and would not be if amended. Mr. ALDRICH. I find the same words in the Constitution of the United States in refer- ence to the same matter. I also find it in the Constitutions of New York and Wisconsin. Mr. PERKINS. I think there can be no doubt but what there is a difference in the idea conveyed by the two expressions, and it seems to me very improper to concur in the amendment. The language of the Consti- tution of the United States is as significant as it can be, and it i^ the same language as is contained in this section. Mr. BILLINGS. I do not understand that the gentlemen who have undertaken to give a grammatical construction to this language are grammarians by any means, though they may have blimdered upon the truth. But we should use, in all instruments, just those words which convey our ideas clearly, and no others. The ofiice of grammar is to lop ofT superfiuous language, and to convey in direct and clear language our meaning, so that it shall not be susceptible* of any misconception- MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Monday, July 27. 137 Now the fact that the words " shall have " are used in other instruments, is no reason, of itself, why we should use it. " It originated," conveys a perfect idea in itself, and of course it originated, and originated before it was sent to the Governor. Because the Constitution of the United States, and some Constitutions of the States, contain the words, is no reason, in my judgment, for their retention here. These same gentlemen say we are pro- gressing, yet they must go back, and like certain persons in Pennsylvania, who, because their fathers balanced a grist on one side of the horse by putting a stone on the other, forsooth must still carry a stone to balance their grist now. They go back to the Consti- tution of the United States, and say that because they find those words there, therefore we must have them here. Mr. SECOMBE. I am opposed to the amendment for two reasons. One is, because the language of the section appears to be in accordance with the Constitution of the United States. That Constitution was drafted with great care, by men of learning and ability, and we may natvirally conclude that they found the very best language that could be found. But that is not the principal reason why I oppose the amendment. It is because the words used in the original section are used in Murray's grammar, and in every other grammar that has ever been published since the world began, in exactly the sense in which we propose to use them. There are proper words for every place, and it strikes me that the words used here are in accordance with grammar, and express the meaning intended. Mr. STANNARD. I supposed that the gentleman who made the motion to amend, did so as pastime, and to create fun and excitement. But it seems that he was in earnest. Now, sir, I studied grammar once, and it does appear to me that whenever we wish to express the idea, which all admit we intend to convey here, the past future tense should be used. Here we speak of a future thing, and we use the potential form — that the Grovemor shaU do so and so at a future time, — and then we speak of some- thing which happened prior to that future time and this is the only language that I know of that win convey that idea. The amendment was rejected. 18 Mr. BATES. I would inquire whether it would not be well to strike out the words, "continuance in" and insert "term of," in the last line of section four, which applies to the Governor, so as to make it conform to the language of the eighth section as amended, which applies to the Lieutenant-Governor ? Mr. BILLINGS. I would inquu^ of the gentleman whether the words, " continuance in," are not used in the Constitution of the United States. (Laughter.). Mr. STANNARD. I move that amendment. Mr. SECOMBE. I am opposed to the amendment. There seems to be great doubt whether there is any difference between the two expressions. I should like to have it remain as it is, so that we may hereafter obtain the decision of the proper tribunal upon that point. Mr. WILSON. If I am elected to serve two years in office, and serve six months, six months is my continuance in office, but two years is my term of office. Mr. MORGAN. It seems to me that there may be a difference of meaning between the two expressions. In the first section we have provided that the Governor shall hold his office two years, and until his successor shall qualify. He may then hold his office for two years and six months, while he was only elected for two years, and his salary might be changed after the expiration of the two years, and during his continuance in office. Mr. BILLINGS. I would refer the gentle- men to the language of article third, section first of the Constitution of the United States, which, speaking of the Judges of the Supreme Court, declares that they shall receive for their services a compensation which shall not be diminished " during their continuance in office." Now if there is any doubt, let us remove it by using both expressions. In one section we have adopted the words, "term of;" and now let us be right, anyway, and retain the words, " continuance in," in the other section. Mr. STANNARD. We have provided that the Governor shall hold his office, not only during two years, but until his successor shall be quaUfied. Suppose the Legislatiu-e shall increase the salary of the Governor, to take effect on and after the expiration of the term of the incimibent. Now I would not jeopard- 138 MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Monday, July 27. ize that act of the Legislature by allowing the words, " continuance in," to remain in the Constitution. The person who is obliged to remain in office should have the emolu- ments of the office, and be entitled to the increased salary allowed by the Legislature. Mr. SECOMBE. I differ with the gentle- man who last spoke, as to what the term of office of the Governor is. The language is that— " The executive power shall be vested in a Gov- ernor, who shall hold his opce for two years, and until his successor is qualified." — The term is two years absolutely, and contingently an additional length of time. So that his term is the whole length of time he actually holds office. Mr. COLBURN. I hope the amendment will not prevail, and that we shall re-consider the vote by which we struck out these same words from the eighth section. I prefer the term used in the Constitution of the United States. Mr. STANNARD. I caU for the yeas and nays upon the amendment. The yeas and nays were refused. The amendment was then rejected. Mr. COLBURN. I now move to recon- sider the vote by which the amendment to the eighth section was adopted, striking out " continuance in," and inserting " term of." Mr. STANNARD. I do not want to tres- pass upon the patience of the Convention, but I must say one word upon this matter. I will suppose a plain case, and then leave the matter. Suppose that the term of office of the Governor of the State of Minnesota expires on the first day of March 1865 : Suppose the next preceding Legislature passes an act increasing the salary of the Governor $500, to take effect the day after the next Governor should take his office ; and suppose the Governor elect should fail to qualify at that time and the Governor should hold over, now under the wording of the section as it originally was, — "continuance in office" — that law would be unconstitutional, for the Legislature cannot increase the pay during his continuance in office. I submit the sub- ject to the candid consideration of the Con- vention. Mr. WILSON. That clause from the Constitution of the United States which has been read here, happens to be as inapplicable to this case, as something read from Tom Hood's ballads. That clause related to the Supreme Court Judges who have a life long tenure, or as long as they behave themselves. But take the clause relating to the President of the United States, and what is that ? " The Pres- "ident shall at stated times, receive for his "services a compensation which shall neither "be increased or diminished during the period "for which he was elected" — or during the term of his office, — which are synonimous. Mr. PERKINS. The gi-eat idea which pervades this whole matter, whether relating to the President of the United States or any other officer, is that as long as he exercises the duties of his office, his compensation shall neither be increased or diminished. Now it seems to me that the words " continuance in," are more appropriate than "term of" and conveys the idea that so long as he continues in office and performs its functions, his com- pensation shall not be increased or dimin- ished. Mr. SECOMBE. There is another case we may suppose. The Governor resigns his office at the end of the first year, and a new incumbent takes his place. Is there any rea- son why his salary should not be increased ? And yet he would be still holding during a part of the term of office of the preceding Governor. Let us look at the reas(Mi of this provision. It is that the Governor himself, being a part of the law making power, shall not increase his own salary, by assisting the Legislature to pass a law to that effect — for every law must receive his sanction. Now the words " continuance in office," provide for that con- tingency. If he leaves the office before the expiration of his term, the reason is lost, and if he holds over longer than two years, the reason holds good. Mr. COLBURN. I would inquire whether the Governor has tlie power to resign by his own voluntary act ? The first section says that the Executive power shall be vested in a Governor, who shall hold his office for two years. Mr. ALDRICII. Section sLxth provides for a resignation. Mr. COLBURN. I judged from the remarks of the gentlemen from Chisago MIXXESOTA COXVEXTION DEBATES— Tcesdat, July 28. 189 county, that it would hold the Glovemor abso- lutely. If that is not the true meaning of this provision, or if any provision is made for resignation, he cannot be compelled to remain in oflBce contrary to his will, and receive a low salary. The question was taken on the motion to reconsider, and it was decided in the affirma- tive. Mr. WILS OX. Have we a quorum present ? The PRESIDEXT. That can only be de- termined by ordering a caU of the Conven- tion. Mr. BOLLES moved (at five o'clock and forty-five minutes) that the Convention ad- journ. The motion was not agreed to. The question then recurring upon adopting the amendment to strike out " continuance in," and insert " term of" Mr. STAXXARD caUed for the yeas and nays, which were ordered. The question was then put, and the roll being called, no quorum answered to their names. Thereupon on motion of Mr. LOWE, (at five o'cloc k and fifty-five minutes) the Con- vention adjourned. FOURTEEXTH DAY. Tuesday, July 28, 1857. The Convention met at nine o'clock, a. m. Prayer by the Chaplain, E. D. Xeill. The journal of yesterday was read and approved. EXECrTIVE DEPABTMEXT. The first business imder the order of pro- ceedings, was the consideration of the amend- ments to the report of the committee on the Executive Department, reported from the committee of the Whole. The PRESIDEXT stated the first question to be on the amendment proposed to the eighth section, to strike out the words, " con- " tinuance in," and insert " term of." Mr. SECOMBE. As there are many mem- bers present this morning who were not here during the discussion yesterday on this amendment, I will state the reasons why I opposed the amendment. The section, as | originally proposed by the committee, provides ! that during the " continuance in" office of ( the Lieutenant-Governor, his salary shall not be increased or diminished. As I stated yesterday, there is a reason for such a provision as that being incorporated here. The Lieu- tenant Governor, by the terms of another section, is made a part of the legislative power of the State. He is President of the Senate, and has a casting vote. Consequently any law passed during his continuance in office, raising his salary would be liable, at least to be passed by his own vote. It is highly improper, to say the least, that an officer of the Government should have the privilege of fixing his own salary. The recommendation of the committee of the Whole was to strike out the words " continu- "ancein," and insert ''term of." The only difference which would be made by that amendment, as I can see, would be this : the words, " term of," would apply to the whole term for which the Lieutenant-Governor was originally elected, and that would be, accord- ing to the first section, two years absolutely, and contingently, an additional length of time. Consequentiy the salary of that officer could neither be increased or diminished during that term, whether he occupied it all the time, or some other person took his place. As the matter now stands, in case of the removal, resignation, or other disability of that officer, during that term, it would allow the incum- bent of the remaining portion of the term to receive the benefits of the salary which might have been increased during the first part of the term. I see no reason why that should not be the case, because the reason of the rule being gone, the rule itself has lost its efficacy. The Lieutenant-Governor who had a part in passing that law ha\Tng gone out of office, the new man coming in to fill the balance of the term, would rightfully receive that salary. Those are the reasons which induced me to vote as I did yesterday, and which I hope will induce the Convention to vote against the amendment. The amendment was not agreed to. Mr. BILLIXGS. I move to strike out from the seventh section the words : " He shall be President of the Senate, but shall have a casting rote therein." — I made that motion yesterday, but I renew it to-day because there are many present now who were not here then. 140 MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Tuesday, July 28, Mr. BATES. I hope it wiU not prevaU. If we are to have a Lieutenant-Governor, I do not see why all power should be taken from him. It is customary in almost every State of the Union for the Lieutenant-Gover- nor to be President of the Senate. The amendment was not agreed to. Mr. MORGAN. I move that the report be now read a third time and put upon its passage. The PRESIDENT. The Chair would state that it cannot be done without a suspension of the rules. Before that is done, it is usual to have a bill or report properly engrossed. Mr. STANNARD. I rise to a question of order. One of our rules requires that the third reading shall be upon a day subsequent to the first and second reading. Hence it cannot be read a third time to-day. The PRESIDENT. The point of order is well taken, and it can only be read now under a suspension of the rules. Mr. SECOMBE. I move that it be ordered to be engi-ossed for a third reading. Mr. STANNARD. I would enquire if there is an Engrossing committee ? The PRESIDENT. There is not. Mr. STANNARD. Then I move to amend the motion so as to refer it to the committee Vhich reported it, for engrossment. Mr. SECOMBE. I accept of that amend- ment, if that is the proper method. Perhaps it is the duty of the Secretary to perform that service. Mr. MORGAN. I would enquire if the report should not be referred to the committee on Arrangement and Phraseology, before it is engrossed. . The PRESIDENT. The report should be engrossed, read a third time and passed, before reference to that committee. The report was then referred back to the committee on the Executive Department for engrossment. PROPOSITION OF CONGRESS. On motion of Mr. SECOMBE, the Convcn- tion resolved itself into a committee of the Whole on the report of the committee on Public Property and Expenditures, (Mr. Vaughn in the chair.) The report was read as follows : The Committee on Public Property and Expendi- tures, to whom was referred a resolution in relation to the propositions of Cona;ress con- tained in the fifth section of the Enabling Act, and the subject matter thereof, have given their consideration to the same, and beg leave to report the accompanying draft of an article on the said subject ; and ask leave to report at a future time on the other matters properly com- ing before them. The propositions contained in the fifth section of the act of Congreas, entitled " An Act to authorize the people of the Territory of Minnesota to form a Constitution and State Government preparatory to their admission into the Union on an equal footing with the original States," and each of the same are hereby freely accepted, ratified and con- firmed ; and it is hereby ordained, irrevocably without the consent of the United States, that the State of [Minnesota shall never interfere with the primary disposal of the soil within the same, by the United States, or with any regulations Con- gress may find necessary for securing the title in said soil to lona fide purchasers thereof; and that no tax shall be imposed on land belonging to the United States, and that in no case shall non- resident proprietors be taxed higher than residents. No amendment being offered, — on motion of Mr. SECOMBE, the committee rose, and reported the article to the Convention with a recommendation that it be adopted. Mr. WILSON. I do not hke the form of the article, at first sight, I think that the pro- position of Congress, accepted by this article, should have been written out in full. It re- fers to another document to ascertain what those propositions are, and if we want to see them we must refer to that other document which is in no wise connected with this. In Iowa, which came into the Union under an Enabling Act similar to ours, they set out the propositions in full, and then declared specifi- cally that they adopted those propositions. I think that would be the proper course in this case. Mr. MURPHY. I move that the article be laid on the table. The motion was agreed to. BOUNDARIES OP THE STATE. Mr. COLBURN. I move that the Con- vention resolve itself into a committee of the AVliole, to consider the report of the commit- tee upon Boundaries. Mr. WILSON. I am not inclined to ask favors, but I will state why I shall do so in tliis instance. I have been unable to find a map in this city giving our Territory, surveyed and unsurveyed, in full. As a member of MIN^^SOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Tlesday, Jult 28. Ul that committee, and the only one who dis- sented to the boundaries laid down in that report, I wish to make a minority report, and I ask the Convention to grant me the favor of passing the subject over to-day, to allow me time to make that report, so that it can be ac- ted upon with the majority report. It will not delay our proceedings as we have plenty other business to occuyy our attention. Mr. COLBURN. I decline to withdraw my motion. Ample time has elapsed since that report was made to enable the gentle- man to make a minority report. Mr. WILSON. I will state that I will make that report to-morrow, whether I get a map or not. Mr. NORTH. I hope the request will be granted. The motion was not agreed to, and the re- port was laid over. BASKIXG COBPOBATIOXS, AC. On motion of Mr. MORGAN, the Conven- tion resolved itself into a committee of the Whole upon the report of the committee upon Banking and Corporations other than Municipal, — Mr. Hollet in the Chair. (For report, see proceedings July twenty-fourth.) The report was read by sections, and the following proceedings took place : Sec. 2. If a general banking law shall be en- acted, it shall provide for the registry and coan- tersigning, by an oflScer of State, of all bills or paper credit, designed to circulate as money, and require security to the full amount thereof, to be deposited with the State Treasurer, in United States Stocks, or in interest paying stocks of States in good credit and standing, to be rated at ten per cent, below their average value in the City of New York, for the thirty days next preceding their deposit ; and in case of a depreciation of any portion of such stocks, to the amount of ten per cent, on the dollar, the bank or banks owning said stocks, shall be required to maktf up such defi- cienncy by depositing additional stocks ; and said law shall also provide for the recording of the names of all stockholders in such corporations, the amount of stock held by each, the time of transfer, and to whom. Mr. CLEGHORN offered the following amendment : " Strike out all after the word ' enacted' and in- sert the following: 'The Legislature shall pro- vide by law for the registry of all bills or notes is- sued or put in circulation as money, and shall re- quire ample security for the redemption of the suae in specie.' " Mr. BATES. I hope the amendment wfll not be adopted. I am aware that our Terri- tory wish for banks, but they wish for those * in which they can have confidence, and with such security that they can feel perfectly safe. We know very well tlie result, to our West- €!m States generally, of having banks with- out having ample security. Adopt the amend- ment proposed and I do not believe our people will feel safe. I believe the result would be very injurious to our banking sys- tem as a whole, and hence I am opposed to it. Mr. LOWE. I hope the amendment will be adopted, or something similar to it. It seems to me that the provision proposed by the committee is obnoxious to the same ob- jection which has been made to many other provisions reported by other committees — that it infringes upon the legislative depart- ment of the government. I think if there is any error which this Convention can commit, and which will be just ground for impeaching its action, it is that of infringing upon the duties of the other department of the gov- ernment. There seems to be a tendency in this Convention to do so, and perhaps they will do it at all hazards. So far as I am con- cerned I dissent from any such proceedings. Mr. SECOMBE. I hope the amendment wiU not prevail. This section was incorpo- rated into the report by the unanimous con- sent of the committee, though not originally in accordance with the unanimous feelings of the committee. I think if there is any one point which we should guard more than all others, in framing a Constitution to be sub- mitted to the people for acceptance or rejec- tion, it is this one. It is well known that in the new States great diflBculty has been ex- perienced in regard to the institution of banks, and that great objection has been made to any banking system. But that has resulted not from any objection which people had to banks, but to the tmfortunate system of banking which has prevailed throughout the western world. That opposition has been carried so far that in Wisconsin it was provided in their Constitution that no banking system should ever be adopted by the Legislature, tmta they had first submitted to the people the direct proposition of " banks or no banks," and further, after they had determined that it wa.s their wish either to have a general 142 MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Tuesday, July 28. banking law, or special bank charters, that no such sj^stem or special charter should take effect until it had been first submitted to a direct vote of the people. In Iowa there has been a constitutional pro- vision against banks ; but their Constitution, recently framed, authorizes their Legislature to incorporate banks. It is from that Con- stitution that the article under consideration has been taken in all its material features. The great necessity of a revision of the Con- stitution of Iowa resulted from this very sub- ject, and the main feature, in the revised Con- stitution, which is to be submitted to the people next month, 'for adoption, is this bank- ing question. Now, Mr. President, while I am satisfied that a large majority of the people of the pro- posed States are in favor of some system of banking, I am equally well satisfied that they will look with the closest scrutiny upon that system, and that they will demand that the Legislature, if they are authorized to enact either a general banking law, or special char- ters, shall be bound by the strictest provis- ions. They will demand that the grant of that power to the Legislature, shall itself se- cure a safe system. The proposition of the gentleman from Fillmore County (Mr. Cleg- horn) is a very good proposition. It pro- vides that there shall be ample security. Now no one wants anything more than ample security, but the people of the proposed State want to know, before they vote for banks what that security is to be. I believe they will be afraid to trust that important matter to the Legislature, and that if we adopt a sys- tem liable to the objection that that proposi- tion is open to, it will meet with the disap- probation of the people of the proposed State. I know that there is a class of citizens who will be very hostile to the system which we have proposed. Who compose that class? Are they the farmers, the mechanics, the tradesmen ? Are they a larger proport'on of the people who are to live under this provis- ion ? Assuredly not. They arc those who embark in the business of banking, for the purpose of making more money in that way than they can in any other. Now that is very laudable, and I have no objection that the man of means should make just as much money out of his capital as he can, provided he does not do it at my expense and risk, I am aware that this provision will not leave them a chance to make money enough, and consequently they will turn their money into some other channel. Very well, let them turn their capital in some other direction where they can make more money, but less poor men. I propose briefly to consider the provisions of this second section. In the first place it provides that if " a general banking law shall "be enacted, it shall provide for the registry " and countersigning, by an officer of State, of " all bills or paper credit, designed to circu- "late as money." Now the proposition of the gentleman from Fillmore county makes no such proposition as that. The term " ample security," which he uses, implies that the Legislature may use their discretion in that matter. Now I believe that no very respec- table number of the members of this Conven- tion will be willing to waive the requirements of a registiy and countersigning of all bills that are to be issued. It requires in the next place, that the Le- gislature shall "require security to the full " amount thereof to be deposited with the State " Treasurer." I trust that no man here, and that no honest and respectable banker, will object to that. The banker has the benefit of sending out his own promissory notes upon the community, and of receiving his rates of interest for the loan of them, and certainly he cannot object to providing security for those notes. But it is provided further, that this secu- rity shall be in " United States Stocks, or in " interest paying stocks of States in good " credit and standing, to be rated at ten per " cent, below their average value in the City " of New York, for the thirty days next pre- " ceeding their deposit." Now if there is any necessity of having any security, there is an equal necessity for having good security. This is not a mere matter of form. This secu- rity is to lie in readiness to apply to the pay- ment of those notes in case of a failure on tlie part of the maker to meet them, so that if you, Mr. Chairman, should hold the note of a broken bank for five dollars, you would be able to get your five dollars in full. But it is said, that in order to bank under this provision, for every ten thousand dollar* MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Tlesdat, Jult 28. 143 capital, the banker has to lie out of one thou- sand dollars. In other words, that if he buys ten tliousand dollars worth of par stock, he can only send out nine thousand doUars worth of notes. Now there is a very good reason for that. Suppose he sends out nine thou- sand dollars worth of notes and by-and-bye fails ; there is the ten per cent, to pay the expenses of winding up the concern, so that the individuals who hold those notes may receive their nine thousand ddlars in full. If the bank had deposited only nine thousand dollars worth of stocks, there certainly would be a loss. The next provision is that " in case of a de- " preciation of any portion of such stocks, " to the amoimt of ten per cent, on the dol- " lar, the bank or banks owning said stocks, " shall be required to make up such deficiency "by depositing additional stocks." A very necessary provision, if it is intended that it should amount to anything, and for the same reason that is necessary that the stocks should be rated at a less amount than their par value in the first instance. The last provision is that "said law shall " also provide for the recording of the names i " of all stockholders in such corporations, the i " amount of stock held by each, the time of : " transfer, and to whom." A very necessary ' provision taken in connection with a subse- ■< quent one, contained in section four, which provides for the individual liability of stock- holders in addition to the security already i provided. \ Now, Mr. Chairman, as a member of the j the committee to whom this matter was I referred, and as a member of this Convention, | I am imwilling to send out to the people of i Minnesota a Constitution imless it contains ' some provision equivalent to this. I believe j it would be reuinons to the Constitution, and i that it would be unwise and imsafe. I there- ! fore hope the amendment will not prevail. j The amendment was rejected. Mr. COLBURN. I move to amend by striking out all between the word " require," in the third line, and the word " and," in the eleventh line, and insert in place thereof as fol- lows : "Ample collateral security, easily convertible into specie, to be deposited with the State Treas- urer, for the redemption of all such paper credit, and shall provide foi' the election of three ban* commissioners, a part of whose duty it shall be to examine, and decide upon the sufficiency of all security offered for deposit ; and they shall rate such securities at least fifty p«r cent, below I their real value, and in case of a depreciation of I any portion of such securities to the amount of \ twenty per cent, on the doUar, they shall require j the bank or banks owing such securities to deposit additional securities." As a member of tiie committee which made this report, it may be expected that I should assign some reason for now ofieringan amend- ment to that report. Although the gentle- man who has just taken his seat remarked that the report was made, by the unanimous consent of the committee, it did not coincide with the views of all the members. I did not wish to make a minority report, but choose to ofier an amendment at the proper time. I am in favor of giving all necessary secu- rity to bill holders, and of protecting the conmivmity under any banking system. As remarked by the gentleman from St. Anthony, (Mr. Secombe), I believe the people of the proposed State will actually require a banking system for the issue of paper currency, upon some basis or other. The quostion arises then, how can such a system be established, giving suflBcient security to the commimity, and at the same time holding out suflBcient inducement to capitalists to engage in it. Under the provisions of this section, it seems to me there will be very little inducement for years to come, for men of capital to engage in banking business. It requires that they shall deposite with the State Treasurer security to the amoimt of their issues in United States stocks, or of paying stocks of States in good credit, to be rated at ten per cent, below their average value for thirty days next preceeding their deposite. And then in addition to that, they of course must have specie in their vaults to redeem their paper as presented. Take the basis supposed by the gentleman for an illustration. With a capital of ten thousand dollars, only nine thousand dollars of paper could be issued, and then, besides that, the banker would be obliged to keep two or three thousand dollars of specie to redeem paper as presented. Here then would be a capital of thirteen thousand dollars invested for the purpose of issuing nine thousand 144 MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Tuesday, July 28. dollars in bills. Now I do not believe our capitalists in Minnesota will be induced to sell their real estate at the present time, or for some time to come, and invest their money in United States or State stocks to deposit with the Secretary of State as security for banking business. It seems to u;e that the proposition I have offered wUl give ample security, and all that can reasonably be asked for by the community for the paper which shall be issued. It provides that such collat- eral security shall be rated at least fifty per cent, below its real value by three Bank Commissioners to bo chosen, whose duty it shall be to look at the banking interest of the State. If, in the course of their duties, they find those securities have depreciated in value twenty per cent., they shall require the bank owning such securities to deposit addditional security, so that the community shall be con- tinuously safe. I am aware that it wUl be objected to this kind of security, that those Bank Commis- sioners are men who in times of pohtical excitement, and perhaps at other times, may be bought, or induced in some way or another to act in the discharge of their duties, for the interest of the capitalists, and to the injury of the community. In other words, that they may be corrupted, and will not do their duty as prescribed by the Constitution and the laws. Now I am in favor of throwing around all our State oflScers all necessary guards and restrictions, but I think there is manifested in this Convention too much suspicion, and the idea seems to pervade the minds of some that we are the only pure and immaculate body which will ever assemble in this capitol, and that tliose who come after us will be corrupt, and that the officers of the people are not to be trusted in the remotest degree, if we can restrict them. I am in favor of leaving something to the people, and something to the officers of the people. The only way in which we can establish a banking system at all, is to leave something to the people hereafter. I desire to have the system 80 arragned that the capitalists of our own State will engage in it. If the original section is adopted, and we have banks at all, the capital will be owned by persons not residing in our State, but by those living in other States who are not bore, and cannot be here to engage in the speculations which are more lucrative than banking. Capitalists from New York, Philadelphia, and Boston may possibly be induced to engage in banking under such a law, and to the exclusion of capitalists liv- ing in our State. I do not desire to discuss the report now at length, but I want to hear the views of other gentlemen upon it ; and hereafter I shall move to re-commit this report to the commit- tee in which it originated. Mr. FOSTER. I confess that this matter has taken me somewhat by surprise. In taking a first glance at this report, I must say that I think we are entering upon a very dan- gerous and doubtful experiment. If this arti- cle is adopted, we prescribe the details of a banking law, upon which there are as many opinions perhaps as there are capitalists. To say at this time, what our banking system shall be three or four years hence, I regard as exceedingly premature. The attempt to establish a permanent banking system now, must result, as every such attempt has re- sulted in new communities, in disaster and loss, and the general breaking up of confi- dence in the community. "VVe should be exceedingly cautious in our action upon this matter at the present time. Another thing, it is exceedingly doubtful whether it is good policy, to legislate, in a Con- stitution which we are to submit for the adop- tion of the people, upon subjects on which there are such diverse opinions. "VVe had better adopt a general article, authorizing tho establishment of a banking system by the Legislature, after the submission of the ques- tion to the people whether they will or will not have such a system. That appears to me to be the safer course. It was adopted in Wis- consin when they framed their Constitution. They waited there until the people were ready to have banks, and when the people had so expressed their wish, a system was adopted which is probably the best one in existence. And when that system was es- tablished by the Legislature, it was again submitted to the people, and they ratified it. I think we had better pursue the same course, under the peculiar circumstances in which we are placed. The amendment was not agreed to. Mr. LOWE. T move that tho report be MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Tuesday, Jult 28. 145 recommitted to the Committee which reported it, with instructions that they report for tlie consideration of the Convention a provision similar to that contained in the Constitution of Wisconsin. Mr. FOSTER. I second tliat motion, but before it is put I will read the clause in the "Wisconsin Constitution : " The Legislature shall not have power to cre- ate, authorize, or incorporate, by any general or special law, any bank, or banking power or privi- lege, or any institution or corporation having any banking power or privilege whatever, except as provided in this article. "The Legislature may submit to the votes at any general election, the question of "bank or no bank," and if at any such election a number of votes equal to a majority of all the votes cast at such election oa that subject shall be in favor of banks, then the Legislature shall have power to grant bank charters. Or to pass a general banking law, with such restrictions and under such regula- tions as they may deem expedient and proper for the security of the bill-holder. Proiidid, that no Such grant or law shall have any force or eflfect until the same shall have been submitted to a vqte of the electors of the State at some general Elec- tion, and been approved by a majority of the votes cast on that subject at such election." Mr. SECOMBE. I am opposed to this mo- tion for two reasons, the first is, that we have not yet discovered that there is objection, to any considerable extent, to the present report of the committee. Two propositions have been made to amend section second, and they have received but a slight support. Again — Mr. WILSON. I rise to a question of order. Is it in order in committee of the Whole, to move to commit to a committee ? The CHAIRMAN. It is not. Mr. LOWE. Then I move that the com- mittee rise and report the report to the Con- vention \vith a recommendation that it be recommitted to the committee from which it came, with the instructions I before men- tioned; Mr. SECOMBE. I supposed that such was the purport of the gentleman's motion. It does not seem to me that it would be justice to the cammittee which has had tlie subject under consideration, and have made their report, to summarily refer it back to them when we have had no great amount of objec- tion made to it. I also am opposed to the motion because it gives directions to that committee what par- 19 ticular report to make. I object to it again because I am opposed to the system which it is proposed the banking committee shall report. As I said when I was up before, I am sat- isfied that the people of the proposed State want banks, and that, too, immediately, and I would not be willing to subject them to the necessity of waiting until the matter could be submitted twice to themselves. The Wis- consin Constitution, provides that the Legis- lature shall have no power to pass any bank charter, or pass any general banking law, until they had ordered — Mr. STANNARD. I rise to a point of order. A motion that the committee rise, according to our rules, must be decided with- out debate. Mr. WILSON. I rise to « point of order. Was there not a motion pending before the conunittee when the motion to rise was made ; and is it not therefore out of order now ? The CHAIRMAN. I prefer to leave the committee to decide the question whether the gentleman who is speaking is in order. Mr. SECOMBE. I would like to speak to that point of order before it is decided. Mr. LOWE. I withdraw my motion. Mr. STANNARD. I make the molaon that the co.^/imittee rise and report the report to tlie Convention with a recommendation that it be recommitted to the Standing Com- mittee. Mr. SECOMBE. Is the motion debatable ? The CHAIRMAN. The Chak thinks not. Mr. SECOMBE. It is not a simple motion to rise, but is coupled with other matter. The C H AIRMAN. The Chau- understands that, according to the rule, it must be decided without debate. Mr. WILSON. I rise to a question of order. Is not a motion that the committee rise, tlie same to the committee of the Whole, that a motion to adjourn is to the Convention ? The CHAIRMAN. The Chau- thinks it is. Mr. WILSON. Well a motion to adjovim, with anything else attached to it loses its privilege, and becomes debatable like every other motion. A motion therefore that the committee rise, with another matter attached to it, loses its privilege, and is debatable. I I think the analogy is so clear that there can be no doubt about it. 146 MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Tuesday, Jci.y 28. The CHAIRMAN. The Chair has decided that question. Mr. SECOMBE. I app^cal from the decision of the Chair. The point taken by the gen- tleman from Winona is the view I have of the matter. A simple motion to rise is not de- batable, but a motion tangled with other mat- ter, like this, is debatable. Mr. LOAVE. I move to amend the motion, so as to make it a simple motion to rise. Mr. STANNARD. I accept the amend- ment. Mr. "WILSON. When mattel^s stand in their present position, can such an amendment be oflfered ? The CHAIRMAN. Under the decision of the Chair the opinion of the Convention should be had upon the motion of Mr. Lowe, that the committee rise and report with instruc- tions, &c. Mr. SECOMBE. The point I appealed from is this : Mr. Loave withdrew his motion and Mr. Stannakd renewed it, and the Chair decides that the motion is not debatable. From that decision I appealed to the com- 4Mttee. The CHAIRMAN. Is the Chair to under- stand that Mr. Lowe withdrew his motion ? Mr. SECOMBE. He did, and Mr. Stan- NARD renewed it. Mr. FOSTER. I suggest that the motion now is simply that the committee rise. Mr. SECOMBE. I suggest that it is not, for the reason that before that amendment was offered, an appeal was taken from the decision of the Chair that the motion of Mr. Stannard was not debatable; and conse- quently, it seems to me, that it would be out of order. The question is now whether the Chair shall be sustained. Mr. BALCOMBE. It is evident that the •committee is not ready to take a calm con- sideration of the subject before it, and there- fore I move that the committee now rise. That motion takes precedence of all others and is not debatable. Mr. SECOMBE. I rise to a point of or> der. Mr. BALCOMBE. The gentleman is out of order in rising to debate the motion that •the committee rise. Mr. SECOMBE. That motion has not been seconded. A MEMBER. I second the motion. The CHAIRMAN. The question is shall the decision of the Chair stand as the judg- ment of the Convention, as an appeal is taken from the decision of the Chair that the motion of Mr. Standard was in order. Mr. SECOMBE. With the indulgence of the Chair, I would state that my appeal was taken from the decision that the motion of Mr. Stannard was not debatable. The CHAIRMAN. The Chair intended to decide that the motion of Mr. Stannard was in order, and he supposed the appeal was from that. Mr. SECOMBE. That was not the ground of my appeal at all, and if the Chair has not made such a decision, I will resume my re- marks. Mr. FOSTER. Mr. Stannard modified his motion, to a simple motion that the com- mittee rise. Mr. STANNARD. Mr. Lowe moved that as an amendment and I accepted it. The CHAIRMAN. It appears to the Chair that an appeal having been taken, it should be decided. Mr. HAYDEN. I beg'to say that no such appeal as the Chair supposes was made. An appeal was taken from a supposed decision of the Chair that the motion was not debata- ble, but the Chair sj^ys he made no such de- cision. Mr. FOSTER. I understand tliat Mr. Secombe withdraws his appeal. Mr. SECOMBE. I sat down simply be- cause the Chair said he had made no such de- cision as that from which I appealed. The CHAIRMAN. The Chair will put the question on the motion that the conunittee rise. The question was then taken and the mo- tion was agreed to. The committee accordingly rose and re- ported progress on the bill. Mr. COLBURN. I now move that the re- port be re-committed to the committee from whence it came. Mr. ALDRICII. Does the gentleman in- tend to include in his motion instructions to the committee ? Mr. COLBURN. Tliat was not my inten- tcntion, I will briefly give my reasons for the motion. At the time this committee re- MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Tuesday, Jcly 28. 14^ ported, there seemed to be but little business before the Convention, and it was thought de- sirable to make the report as soon as possible in order that the Convention might have something to do. The report was hurried along faster than it should have been, "and was not duly considered by the committee. If the committee had taken more time, they would have reported diiFerently from what they did. That is the reason why I desire to have it re-committed without instructions. Mr. SECOMBE. I am opposed to this motion for the reason that it has not yet become apparent to the Convention, that the report is not iq accordance with their wishes. We have but slightly considered it in committee of the Whole, and so far as consideration was ^ven to it, there seems to be a very general satisfaction with its provisions. The remark by the gentleman that suflB- cient time was not given to this proposition while it was before the Committee I cannot coincide in. The matter was, so far as I know, fully and thoroughly discussed, and there seemed a general acquiescence upon the part of the committee, that we should have something in the natm'e of this second pro- vision. I do not see any reason yet why we should re-submit this matter to the committee when they have already performed their duty, and submitted a report which we have not vet had time to consider in committee of the Whole. Mr. BOLLES. As a member of that com- mittee I would certainly approve of the motion to re-submit. Not that I have received any new light, but that I am satisfied that the chairman is not gratified with his own rejwrt. We have an abundance of time, and the action of the committee will not be delayed. I am willing to let that committee concoct any plan they or their chairman may have in view. I certainly will not shrink from going into an investigation of the matter again. I myself think we hurried the matter through more than we should have done. It was so hurried because we were anxious to get some business for the Convention to act upon. The question was taken on the motion to re-commit, and it was carried. Mr. AVILSON. I now move that Mr. Cleohor:^ be added to that standing com- mittee. He offered an amendment to the report which is worthy of consideration, and I think he ought to be added to the committee. Mr. FOSTER. I hope that will not be agreed to. I myself proposed to ofiFer an amendment, and should I be added to the committee on that account ? If we do this, there is no telling where we shall end. Mr. BOLLES. I suggest to the Conven- tion that any suggestions which may be made to the committee will be considered. The motion was not agreed to. PCXISHMEXT OF CRIMES. On motion of Mr. COLBURN, the Conven- tion resolved itself into a committee of the Whole, (Mr. Watson in the chair,) upon the report of the committee upon the Punishment of Crimes. (For report, see proceedings ofi July 24th.) The report was read by sections for amendment. Sec. 1. No person shall be held to answer for a capital or infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases of impeachment, or in cases cognizable by a justice of the peace, or in cases arising in the army or navy, or in the militia when in actual service, in time of war or public danger. The Legislature- shall provide by law a suitable and impartial mode of selecting juries, and their usual number and unanimity, in indictments and convictions shall be held indispensable. Mr. MORGAN. I move that that section be stricken out, and my reason for such a motion is, that the ground is fully covered by the report of the committee upon the Preamble and Bill of Rights. I was a member of the committee which made this report, and con- sented to its being made in this form, for the purpose of having it come before the Convention, but I never approved of making a separate article in the Constitution upon tliis subject. I have seen but one Constitution where the provisions of this section have been provided for in a separate form. Article first of this section is provided for in article eighth of the Bill of Rights. If these sections are adopted in the form in which they are here reported, it will be necessary to strike them out from the Bill of Rights, where they were all passed upon in Convention. Mr. BOLLES. I hope the motion will not prevail. You remember that the question was raised when the Bill of Rights was under 148 MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Tuesday, July 28. discussion, that it included matters properly belonging to other committees, and that report was objected to upon that ground. But that is no good reason why this report should not be adopted, and those redundant articles in the Bill of Rights be stricken out there. I believe it is the sense of this Convention that we should have something in onr Constitu- tion which should be the basis upon which our criminal code shall be founded, and there is no better way, in my judgment, than to incorporate an article, going into <;hp details somewhat, prescribing what the Legislature may do, and may not do, in the premises. And I will say to the Convention, that when the proper time arrives, I have a substitute to offer to the whole Bill of Rights, simplify- ing it, and making it what it should be, — a simple declaration of right;s and nothing more — declaring fundamental principles and leav- ing it for the body of the Constitution, under proper and legitimate^ heads, tQ carry out t):}0se simple declarations. Mr. KING. One difficulty arises in regard to the motion before the Convention, and that is, if you strike out the whole section you strike out a provision securing to us one of our most important rights, which is that the Leg- islature shall provide by law " a suitable an^ "impartial mode of selecting juries, and their "usual number and unanimity." It is only the first part of this section which is contained in the eighth section of the Bill of Rights. But the Bill of Rights is not a Constitution, but simply a declaration of what shall be contained in the Constitution, and what it shall be based upon, Mr. MORGAN. The matter which has just been spoken of, is provided for in the seventh section of the Bill of Rights, which provides that the criminal shall have compul- sory process to compel the attendance of witnesses in his behalf, and in prosecutions by indictment or information, to a speedy and public trial by an impartial jury of the county or district wherein the offence shall have been committed. It is impossible for us, in fram- ing a constitution, to go into details, and state and re-state that the Legislature shall enact provisions for obtaining imi)artial juries. A Constitution is some general directions as to the formation of the State Government, and the enunciation of some general principles upon which legislation shall be founded. If we go into details, and introduce every propo- sition which may be good in itself, and proper at some time to be introduced as matters of legislation, we shall make a Constitution as large as a book of statutes. I am utterly opposed to all these details. They seem to me unnecessary and uncalled for. Mr. COLBURN. I am opposed to striking out the section, substantially for the same rea-. son that I was in favor of striking out a sim- ilar provision from the Bill of Rights. I deem this the appropriate place for it, and as the Bill of Rights has not been finally acted upon, I shall vote to retain this section here, and when the BUI of Rights comes up, I shall move to strike out the provision then. Whether other States have arranged their Constitutions in this form or not, I think it preferable to retain it here. Mr. FOSTER. It strikes me that this article provides for sometliing more than the article in the Bill of Rights. It contains cer- tain qualifications which are not contained in that. The Bill of Rights says : " Except in " cases of impeachment, or in cases cogniza- "ble by a justice of the peace, or in cases "afrising in the army or navy, or in the mi- "litia, when in actual service in time of war " or public danger." But this section says further, that " the Legislature shall provide " by law a suitable and impartial mode of " selecting juries." That would seem to be necessary. Then it goes on to say — "and " their usual number and unanimity, in indict- "ments and convictions, shall be deemed " indispensable." I must confess I do not understand exactly what that means. But notwithstanding it speaks of the usual number of jurors, section eleventh of the same report, says that the Legislature may authorize trial by jury of a less number than twelve. men in the inferior courts of tlio Strte. I have no objection to the article though I think its meaning might be more clearly expressed. Mr. BALCOMBE. I am in favor of stri- king out tills section for the reason, first, because I consider it a species of legislation unnecessary to bo inserted into the Constitu- tion ; and secondly, because the wording of this section is not as good as that of the eleventh section of llic Bill of Rights. That Is more MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Tcesday, Jclt 28.' 140 compact and partakes much less of the nature of legislation. Again, the proper place for a clause of this Import, is in the Bill of Rights. All States which have adopted a Constitution -with a Bill of Rights, have inserted such a clause in the Bill of Rights. By common consent it seems to have been conceded that that is the proper place for this subject matter. Mr. LOWE. I was a member of the com- mittee which made this report, and I would be glad to have it receive the compliment of a consideration by the Convention. Neverthe- less it seems to me that nearly the whole of the subject matter of this report has been acted upon carefully by the committee of the Whole when they had under consideration the report of the committee on the Bill of Rights. If we go through this bill we shall have to travel over the whole ground again, and it will only tend to bring us into a state of confusion upon the subject. It strikes me that it would be better to refer the matter back to the committee with instn^ctions to report only so much as has not been acted upon before. I move that the committee now rise, and if that is agreed to, I will move in Con- vention, that it be recommitted to the com- mittee from which it came. The motion was agreed to. The committee accordingly rose and re- ported the report to the Convention. Mr. LOWE. I now move that the report be recommitted to the con^mittee in which it originated. *he motion was agreed to, and the report was recommitted. EXEJtPnOX OF BEAL AM) PERSONAL ESTATE. On motion of Mr. CLEGHORN,"the Con- vention resolved itself into committee of the Whole (Mr. Fosteb in the Chair) upon the report of the committee upon Exemption of Peal and Personal Estate, and the rights of Married Women. [For report, see proceed- ings of July 2-ith.] The report was read by sections for amend- ment. Sectiov 1. The personal property of everj resident of this State, to consist of such property as shall be designated by law, shall be exempted 10 the amount of not less than two hundred and ftftj (1250) dollars from sale on execution or other final process of any court issued for the collection of any d«bt contracted after the adoption of this Constitution. Mr. MORGAN. I move that the first sec- tion be stricken out, and [if that motion is carried, I shaU move that every succeeding section be stricken out, and for the reason that this is wholly a matter of legislation. All there is in this section, for which any provision is needed, is provided for in section seventeenth of the Bill of Rights which says that " the right of the debtor to enjoy the "necessary comforts of life shall be recog- "nized by wholesome exemption laws." That is a general provision covering the whole ground. The remaining part of this report is mere legislation. I can see no reason why we should go into specific legislation upon this subject. The third and fourth sections are also matters of legislation, and there already exists in this Territory legislation upon the subject of the rights of married women. It does seem to me that we ought not to enter upon matters of legislation of this kind, in this place. Mr. BOLLES. I shall be under the neces- sity of voting against this motion, and against the striking out of any other section of this report As an indiWdual I am decidedly in favor of incorporating into the Constitution a specific exemption, and make it the fimda- mental law of the land that a certain amount of real and personal property shall be exempt from such execution. Such being my senti- ments, and the sentiments, I beheve, of that portion of the community that is benefitted by exemption laws, I shall vote for retaining this section and all the sections of this report. If there is any amendment which can give it more force and more sacredness, I shall vote for such amendment. Mr. BALCOMBE. I am in favor of strik- ing out every section of this report, not be- cause I am not in favor of an homestead ex- emption law, for I am most sincerely in favor of it, and were I a member of the first Legis- lature under the State government, I should insist upon such a law, and perhaps for a more hberal one than any member in this Convention, But I do not consider it proper for us, more particularly under present cir- cumstances, to place a full and perfect ex- emption law in the Constitution. If it is left to the first Legislature, I believe the people 150 MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Tuesday, July 28. will see to it that senators and representatives are elected who will frame a law of that char- acter. We should not encumber the Consti- tution with full and perfect laws upon any of these subjects. I am equall}^ opposed to the insertion of a banking law in the Constitution. Let the people elect a Legislature with spe- cial reference to those matters. Mr. SMITH. I regard this section merely as a basis of future legislation. I think the people demand that something specific shall be inserted here. I hope the motion to strike out will not prevail. Mr. BALCOMBE. There is in the BUI of Rights a clause which covers this whole ground. It provides that the right of the debtor to enjoy the necessary comforts of life shall be recognized by wholesome exemption laws. That gives to the Legislature full power and authority to pass such laws, as in their judgment they "think proper and which they think the people demand ; and there is where I think this matter should be left. But I was very glad to hear the committee report upon this subject and bring it before the Conven- tion, that it might be freely discussed. I hope gentleman will not vote for the retention of this clause simply because [they are m favor of such a law. I, too, am in favor of- it, and I suppose there is not a member of the Convention more so, but I shall vote to strike it out upon the ground of the inexpediency of inserting a full and complete exemption law io the Constitution. Mr. COLBURN. I agree with the gentle- man from Winona. While I am in favor of an exemption law, and while I believe the members of this Convention, and neai'ly every citizen of the Territory, are in favor of it, at the same time I believe it is not proper to in- corporate a law in detail, like this, into our Constitution. It is agreed upon all hands that the people of the Territory demand such a law, and if so, the Legislature will be sure to pass one. What the people demand, the Legislature will not refuse to grant. Such being the universal sentiment of the commu- nity, there is no risk in leaving the details of that law to the Legislature. I hope therefore that the section will be stricken out. Mr. BATES. I do not think a gentleman in this Convention is opposed to a homestead exemption law. On the contrary I believe that every member, as well as the people* are strongly in favor of it. Yet I hope that this entire article will be stricken out, from the fact that I believe the proi^cr place for it is in the Bill of Rights ; and in advocating that, I may say, I am following in the course pursued by other Constitutional Conventions. In looking over the Constutions of other States, I have not found a single instance where there is a separate article upon this subject, but I did find that the Constitutions of various States have articles in the Bill of Rights sim- ilar to the one we have. I believe that is the place for it, and therefore I shall vote for striking it out here. Mr. SMITH. I would refer the gentleman to the Constitutioh of Micliigan where he will find a homestead exemption law in detail. And why, if the people are so much in favor of such a law, should we not incorporate something of this kind, as the basis of future legislation? The insertion of this article would not preclude legislation. Mr. NORTH. I am decidenly in favor of restricting ourselves, in the formation of a Constitution, as much as possible, to a decla- ration of general principles and of fixing the rights of the people of this State by general principles, without going into the details of legislation. Still there is something in this article which I should not like to see stricken out, because the subject of the last section is not provided for in the Bill of Rights. ^Vhile gentlemen advocate the policy and propriety of striking out the whole report, I should Uke to see something like this last article Re- tained. It relates to the property of married women. As to the remaining portion of the report, I am in favor of striking it out, as the subject embraced in it is already sufficiently provided for in tlve Bill of Rights already re- ported. I hope we shall not go into legisla- tion upon this subject as minutely as there seems to be a disposition to do upon the part of the committee. I think we should find our labors curtailed and our Constitution im- proved if we guard that point. Mr. PECKHAM. I differed somewhat with my associates upon the committee in regard to this report, although I signed it, I did m more particularly to have the subject brought before the Convention. I suppose that the article in the Bill of Rights covered the whoU MINNESOTA CONTENTION DEBATES— Tuesday, July 28. 151 ground, and is suflBcient for the action of future Legislatures, and that the matter would more properly come before such a body, than be- fore a Constitutional Convention. Mr. BOLLES. If we go on in this way with the reports of the different committees) it will be pretty conclusively demonstrated that we made an egregious eri'or in appointing the committees at all. If we are going to take the report of the committee on the Pre- amble and Bill of Rights as the Constitution, what was the necessity of having giny other committees ? They are of no use at all. But I view this matter in a different light from what others do. I look upon a Bill of Rights as incorporated in a Constitution, merely as a recapitulation of fundamental principles and nothing more. But I do consider it perfectly legitimate and proper to incorporate into a Constitution certain fundamental ideas, and then make them so specific that there can be no misconception as to their meaning — no two ways in which they should be construed. For instance, in regard to the subject under con- sideration, the Michigan Constitution exempts personal property to an amount not less than five hundred dollars, and a homestead of not exceeding forty acres of land, &c., going specifically into the details of the matter. That is what I want here, and it is all I ask. Make such a general exemption here, and then leave it to the Legislature to say what it shall consist of in detail. One word as to this idea that we must take the thunder out of the Constitution, which will be presented by the body sitting in the other end of the capitol. I am in favor of it, but may differ from others as to the best mode of doing it. I am in favor of incorpo- rating into the Constitution every popular sentiment of the day, and of taking it before the people and urging its adoption most ardently, claiming it, as emphatically the Constitution of the Republican party. I shall in my future covu"se act upon that prin- ciple, and thus take all the thunder out of the other Constitution, by adopting and incor- porating into ours all popular views of the day. In reference to the Bill of Rights, I wish to say that I hope there will be no definite action upon it, until I shall have had an opportvmity to present the substitute to which I referred before. Mr. MANTOR. I am in favor of a liberal homestead exemption law, to protect families, fi-iends, and the entire community, but I am opposed to the adoption of the report of this conynittee. Now, sir, if we are to take up every popular sentiment of the day which we may find in the report of any committee, and insert them into our Constitution, we should make an instrument which the people could not miderstand. I am opposed to this section from tlie fact that it lays down a specific amount of exemption. My views of the amount of exemption would probably differ very much from a majority of the members upon this floor. The gentleman from Winona, (Mr. Balcombe) stated that he was in favor of the most liberal laws in that respect, yet I presume I would go further than any delegate here. But, sir, if we are going to incorporate • this into our Constitution, we had better follow out the plan indicated by one gentle- man who has spoken, and take up all the isms of the day, and give them a place here. But it looks to me ridiculous to embody in our Constitution anything infringing on the legislative department, and for that reason I shall oppose this section. There is also in the Bill of Right ssufficient to guarantee to every man a sufficient exemption. It is so worded that the Legislature can act upon the subject with a due regard to the rights and wishes of the people. The question was then taken, and the sec- tion was stricken out. Mr. COLBURN. I move to strike out the second section. The motion was agreed to. Mr. BOLLES. I move that the committee rise. The motion was not agreed to. Mr. HARDING. I move to strike out the third section. The motion was agreed to. Mr. STANNARD. To save the time of the committee, I move that the committee rise and report back the report to the Convention with a recommendation that it be indefinitely postponed. The motion was agreed to. The committee accordingly rose, and the chairman reported back the report, with a recommendation of the Committee that the report be indefinitely postponed. 152 MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Tuesday, July 28, The question being on agreeing with the recommendation of the committee, Mr. LYLE called for the yeas and nays. The 5'cas and nays were orderedi The roll was then called, and the question was decided in the aflBrmative, yeas 39, nays 9, as follows : Yeas— Messrs. Aldrich, Anderson, Ayer, Bal- combe, Baldwin, Bates, Bartholomew, Billings, Cleghorn, Colburn, Coe,Cederstam, Coombs, Dool- ey,Dickerson, Folsom, Galbraith, Gerrish, Hayden, Uarding, Hudson, Hanson, HoUey, Lowe, Mantor, Morgan, Mills, Murphy, Nortli, Putnam, KobbinSj Russell, Stannard, Secombe, Walker, Winell, Watson, and Wilson. JVays — Messrs. BoUes, Foster, King, Kemp, Lyle, McClure, Phelps, Smith and Vaughn. And then on motion of Mr. HARDING, (at twelve o'clock and thirty minutes,) the Convention adjom-ned until two o'clocki AFTERNOON SESSION. The Convention met at two o'clock; Mr. MILLS offered the following resolution : "Sesolved, That the object of a Constitution is to organize a government, prescribing the nature and extent of the powers of the several depart- ments thereof; and that to engraft any legislative enactment therein would be anti-Republican. Fur- ther, that a Bill of Rights should only be declara- tory of general fundamental principles." Mr. HARDING. I am not prepared to go for that resolution at the present time, nor do I as yet see the propriety of passing it. It is barely possible, that there might be different views of what might be termed legislative acts. There may be provisions that we may find necessary to incorporate into the Bill of Rights, which some might consider legislative in their nature, while others would think differently. I am of opinion that the adop- tion of such a resolution would not be bene- ficial at this time. The resolution was tlien laid over under the rule. BILL OF BIGHTS. Mr. BATES. I move that the Convention now proceed to the third reading of the report of the committee on the Preamble and Bill of Rights. Mr. NORTH, I would inquire if it is not yet in committee of the Whole. The PRESIDENT. It is not. It has been reported back, and was laid upon the table. It has not yet been engrossed, nor have the amendments of the committee all been acted on, and it would require a two-thirds vote tO put it upon its third reading before its engrossment. Mr. BATES. I withdraw my motion, and move that it be taken from the table, and that we pi-oceed to act upon the amendments recommended by the committee of the Whole; Mr. WILSON. I should like to see the bill disposed of to-day, but the chairman of the committee which reported ' it is absent now on account of sickness in his family, and has been absent all the time during its con- sideration. He will be here to-day, and I think we had better leave it until he re- turns. The PRESIDENT. The Chair would sug- gest the propriety of not finally passing any of these propositions without having them engrossed. It would be rather a difficult matter for the Secretary to read the report in its present shape, with its various amend- ments so as to make it understood. Mr. NORTH. I am in favor of its bein^ engrossed, but before that is done I wish to say that there is a part of the report which we recommitted this morning, which I should like to see added to the Bill of Rights. It is the section in regard to the rights of married women, Jtnd if the bill is again taken up I shall move such an amendment. Mr, STANNARD. Have the amendments recommended by the committee of the Whole been yet concurred in ? The PRESIDENT. They have not. Mr. STANNARD. Then of course it must be takfn up and the amendments acted on. The motion was agreed to, and the bill was again before the Convention. Mr. BOLLES. Mr. President. I pro- pose a substitute for the wKole report. I do so' out of ntf feeling of disrespect for the opinions of the gentleman who got up this report, but sitaiply from the conviction that the investigations were insufficient for want of time on the part of tlie standing com- mittee. The substitute was read by the Secretary. It is as follows : Preamble. Wc the people of the State of Min- nesota, feeling that the blessings of free govern- ment can only be maintained by a firm adhcrenc* to justice and strict virtue, and being desiroHi to MEsXESOTA CONTENTION DEBATES— Tcesdat, Jclt 28. 153 nerpetuate the blessings of civil and religions liberty to our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution. ARTICLE I — DECLABATION OF BIGHTS. Sectiox. 1. All men are bom equally free and independent, and have cenain inalienable rights, among which are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. To secure these rights governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. Sec. 2. There shall be neither slavery nor involuntary servitude in the State, except for the punishn^nt of crimes, of which the party shall have been duly convicted. Sec. 3. The liberty of the press shall forever remain inviolate, and all persons may freely speak, write and publish their sentiments on all subjects, being responsible for the abuse of those rights. Sec. 4. The right of the people to assemble to consult for the common good, and to petition the government, or any department thereof, shall never be abridged. Sec. 5. The right of trial by jury shall forever remain inviolate. Sec. 6. Liberal laws regulating capital punish- ment should be enacted, but no laws prohibiting such punishment shall be passed. Sec 7. The privilege of the writ of Jidbeaa corpus shall not be suspended, except in case of insurrection. Sec. 8. All persons are entitled to certain rem- edy in law, for all injuries or wrongs which they may sustain in their person, property or char- acter. Sec. 9. Treason against the State shall consist only in bringing war against the same, or in adhe- ring to its enemies, giving them aid and comfort. Sec. 10. The right of the people to be secure i'l their persons, houses, papers and effects against unreasonable searches or seizures, shall not be violated. Sec 11. No bill of attainder, ex pogt facto law, nor any law impairing the obligation of contracts, shall be passed, and no conviction shall work cor- ruption of blood or forfeiture of estate. Sec 12. No private property shall be taken •" jr pubUc use, without just compensation therefor. Sec. 13. All lands within this State are declared allodial, and feudal tenures are prohibited. Sec 14. Xo distinction shall be made by law between resident aliens and citizens, in reference to the possession, enjoyment or descent of prop^ erty. , Sec 15. No imprisonment for debt shall be allowed. Sec 16. The right of the debtor to enjoy the comforts of life shall be recognized by liberal and -.rholesoihe exemption laws. Sec. 17. The right of every man to worship God according to the dictates of his own con- science shall never be infringed, nor shall any 20 man be compelled to attend, erect, or support any place of public worship, or to maintain any reli- gious ministry against his consent, nor shall the Legislature appropriate any public funds for the support of reUgious or theological institutions. Sec 18. No religious test or prc^rty qualifi- cation shall ever be required for civil privileges. Sec 19. The military shall be in subjection to the civil power. Sec 20. Writs of error shall never be prohibi-' ted by legal enactments. Sec 21. Lotteries shall not be authorized by law. Sec 22. The Legislature shall pass no laws licensing the traffic in ardent spirits, or intoxica- ting liquors. Sec 23. Dueling shall not be allowed in the State, and the Legislature is required to pass good and wholesome laws prohibiting the same. Sec 24. The criminal code shall be founded upon principles of justice and reformation. Sec 25. The people shall have the right to bear arms in defense of themselves and the State. Mr. NORTH. Mr. Pbesidest: There are some things in that substitute that I like, and I don't know but I should like most of it. I move that it lie on the table and be printed, that we may have an opportunity of examin- ing it more at leisure. The motion was agi'eed to. So the substitute was ordered to be printed, and the question recurred on the amendments recommended by the committee of the Whole. Mr. BOLLES. I move that the report of the standing committee be laid on the table. Mr. CLEGHORN. I move that the bill before the Convention together with the amendments, be printed. The PRESIDENT. The motion to lay on the table takes precedence. The motion to lay on the table was re- jected. Mr. CLEGHORN. I now renew my motion to have the bill and amendments printed. Mr. NORTH. I was going to move an ad- ditional clause — if I have the permission of the gentleman — in regard to the rights of married women. I will m ove that the fol- lowing section be added : " Sec — Married women shall have the right to hold and convey real and ptersonal property, in their own right, and separately from their husbands." The PRESIDENT. The amendment is not properly in order, until the amendments recommended by the committee of the "Whole 154 MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Tuesdat, Jult 28. ^ shall be disposed of, no other amendment will be in order. Mr. STANNARD. I move to re-commit the report of the standing committee with the amendments in committee of the Whole, together with the substitute, and the resolu- tions submitted this afternoon upon the same subject, to the standing committee on the Bill of Rights. The PRESIDENT. Tlie substitute has been-ordered to lie on the table to be printed. A motion to take it up would be in order. ' Mr. SMITH. I move to take the substitute from the table. Mr. BOLLES. I hope that will not prevail. I hope the paper will be allowed to go to the printing offiee and be printed, that we may all look at it and compare it with other propo- sitions, and decide between them as to what we want. Mr. HAYDEN. Mr. Pbesident : It does appear to me that we have a committee competent to their task, and if this substitute shall be referred to them, and if there are good ideas in it — and I confess there are some that I like — I think they are abundantly com- petent to put them into the article. It looks to me like unnecessary work to print. There bas been one report printed, and to print any more would be out of the usual course. I think it would be far better to refer the whole to the standing committee, and let them investigate it. If there are valuable ideas suggested, I trust they will incorporate them. Mr. STANNARD. I object to this mode of forming a Constitution. We have spent considerable time on the Bill of Rights, and it ■is only out of courtesy that I should feel dis- posed to refer the substitute. Although the substitute might be even better than the original report, I would not vote for it with- out first extending this courtesy to the com- mittee, which is usually extended by deliber- ative bodies. The committee luve prepared their report, no doubt, with great care and labor, and here we have a substitute for it which it is proposed to print. It is out of the line of parliamentary proceeding to order a substitute to be printed. It would be dis- courteous toward the committee, unless the original and amendments were also printed. I have all confidence in the standing com- Hiitteo on the Bill of Rights, and instead of having so much printing done, and taking up so much time, I should prefer that the whole subject were simply referred again. Mr. SECOMBE. I am opposed to all reference of the matter at present. We have had a clean report from the standing com- mittee, and that report has been considered in committee of the Whole. But no attention has been given by the Convantion to the amendments recommended by the committee of the Whole. We have no assurance as to "whether the Convention might not#iow be satisfied with i^e present shape of the report. I think it better first to ascertain whether the Convention will accept and adopt the amend- ments of the committee of the Whole. This motion seems to be taking the matter again out of our hands. Some gentlemen say they have not been present when this article has ^ been before us. To be sure, a good many have taken it upon themselves to go home about their own business ; but I do not like to see this used as an argument and a reason why we should go over this matter again. It has been now two or three days since this report came back from the committee of the Whole, and it seems to me nothing but cour- tesy that we should act upon their recom- mendations ; and if we find we are not satis- fied, then it will be time enough to make another reference. TiU then, I am opposed to all reference of the matter. The PRESIDENT. The first question is on the motion to print the article with the amendments. Mr. WILSON. Would it not be well to print the amendments in the bill ? The PRESIDENT. The amendments have not been made yet. Mr. WILSON.. They will bo printed, as recommended by the committee of the Whole. Mr. NORTH. I hope this will not pass. It would be folly to send a paper to be printed in that condition. I think, myself, it would be as well not to have it printed at all. The PRESIDENT. The Chair would suggest, that it would bo almost impossible for the printer to ferret out the amendments. Mr. CLEGIIORN. I withdraw the motion The question recui-ring on Mr. Smith's motion, it was agreed to, and the substitute was again before the Convention. Mr. HAYDEN. Mr. President, I move MINXESOTA COXVENTION DEBATES— Titesday, Jult 28. 155 that the report and amendments, with the substitute, be re-committed to the standing committee. Mr. SECOMBE. The course indicated by this motion will require several days before we can get tliis matter before us again. After the report shall be again made by the stand- ing committee, it has then to be read the first and second time and printed ; then it has to be considered in committee of the whole ; then, on a subsequent day, it has to be brought before this body. In other words, it is taking the back track for about a week, in order to go again over the very same ground we have been over before. I wish, Mr. Pbesi- DEST, to get along as fast as possible with this matter. These amendments have been long enough before the Convention, and new amendments can be offered. I hope gentle- men will not insist on going back and being delayed so long. Mr. PERKIXS. As I look at it, this de- lay is for the espec:al benefit of those who saw fit to leave their places here and go home about their own business. The Con- vention refused last week to adjomn over till Monday, for the sake of enabling these gen- tleman to retire. Nevertheless, they saw fit to go, and I understand that some, who were left here for the sake of aiding in the move- ment, when their names were called, refused to answer, for the sake of putting off the busi- ness of the Convention. Mr. HAYDEX (interrupting.) I rise to a point of order. I think the gentleman is not on the subject. . The PRESIDENT. [Mr. Secombe in the Chair.] The Chair is of opinion, that the gentleman from Rice county is on the subject. Mr. PERKINS. I understand that there was a plan contrived to have this thing laid over, so as to give these gentlemen a chance to come back and take part. I do not know that this is correct ; but it seems to me that the movement to-day must be for the special benefit of those who left Inasmuch, then, as this report has been fully considered in committee of the Whole, and the whole ground has been traveled over, it seems to me, it is a matter of sheer justice to those members who have remained here, that this delay should not be permitted. I hope the majority of this Convention will not delay ; but that the business in hand may be dis- posed of, and we may take hold of other matter, so that we may not be obliged to spend six months in fi*aming a Constitutioti, when three or four weeks would be sufiBcient. Mr. BATES. Mr. President: I think the gentleman from Rice county is vmder a mistake. I am one of those who have been away ; and I was the one who made the mo- tion this afternoon that the report of the committee on the Preamble and Bill of Rights be taken up ; and I desire to proceed immedi- ately to act upon the amendments recom- mended by the committee of the Whole. I was in fiivor of going forward with business, and am so stiU. I was opposed to the sub- stitute, and opposed to the ordfer to print. I am now in fiivor of going forward with the consideration of the amendments. Mr. STANNARD. I feel cafled upon to explain the reason of my standing outside the bar yesterday — as the gentleman alh^ed to me — to break a quorum. I did it, sir, on the grovmd that I beHeve the majority ought to rule. There were but twenty-nine mem- bers present, and I certainly thought it wrong to proceed. I would rather the whole one hundred and eight were here than the fifty- nine, — ^much rather the fifty-nine than the twenty- two or twenty-three who then remained in their seats. I am ready to stand by all that I did. Mr. WILSON. Mr. Pbesidext: I have twice suggested a postponement of the mat- ter of the report of this committee — inasmuch as we had other matter before us — ^untU the Chairman of the conmiittee should be pres- ent. That gentleman, however, never spoke to me about putting off action. He is absent because his child is sick, as I understand — absent necessarily ; and I thought it would be proper to leave it till he should be present ; for upon this, as upon every sub- ject, I should be very glad to have his coun- sel and assistance. I shall certainly vote for giving the report again to the committee, or for any delay of its consideration imder the circumstances. Mr. BOLLES. I hope the motion to re- commit will prevafl. I happen to know, that the standing committee did not take the time in getting up their report which they would have taken, had they not supposed, that the 156 MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Tuesday, July 28. report should be presented very early in our deliberations here. Consequently, they has- tened to get through with it, expecting the Convention to do with it as they saw fit. They did not give the subject the attention it deserved, as I have understood from them- selves ; and J believe, if they all understood l^ow the mfittter now stands, they would be exceedingly gratified if the Convention would ^.llow it to go back to them. It seems to me such a course is necessary to the perfection of the work. I for one, would not like to see the Consti- tution go out with such imperfections that we would not like to look upon it hereafter. I want a Constitution that the State shall be proud of— one that will not need revising for a hundred years to come. And to accom- plish such a work, I hope we shall take all the time that may be necessary. I am one of those really needing my own time at home, but I am not willing to go away from this place and leave our work half done. Mr. HAYDEX. I made the motion to recommit for ftie express purpose of expe- diting business. That report was made, and, in my opinion, weak as it may be, it is a very good Bill of Bights. I do not pretend to say but that it needs some amendments, but we see it lumbered up with almost innumerable amendments ; and at this time a substitute is offered for tl^e whole bill, a vote taken to lay it upon the table and have it printed. That will consume some time. It seems to me that the only correct course for us to pursue is to recommit the whole matter. In regard to the assertion that many of us were absent when the report was acted upon, and that we therefore complain of forcing action upon it now, I will say that I have- made no complaint, though I was absent during its consideration. I have had some little legislative experience, and I am willing that my course should be properly presented. During the last six months I have spent eighty-nine days in this place in a legislative capacity, and in all that time, I believe that the roll has been called but once when I have failed to respond to my name. It is true I absented myself from the Convention a part of the last week. I went home on account of sickness, and nothing but the peculiar cir- cumstances in which this Convention is placed would have induced me to return now. I do not complain in the least of amendments hav- ing been made during my absence. I am glad the business has been done and I pre- sume it has been well done. But I think now, at this stage and position of the report, that the best possible, the most cautious, and the straight forward course, is to recommit it, that the committee may have a fair chance to compare the substitute with the report. If they find the substitute better than the origi- nal I presume they will adopt it. Mr. BALCOMBE. I am very sorry to see so much of the time of the Convention occu- pied in this manner, and apparently for no earthly good that any one can percieve. The substitute oflfered by the gentleman from Rico County (Mr. Bolles) contains but one or two sections, and one or two subjects, differing from the report made by the com- mittee. Now is it necessary, in order that we may get tjiose additions into the Bill of Rights, that we should take under consideration the whole substitute, after having spent two or three days upon the report ? The proper course for the gentleman to have taken to have his new ideas included in the Bill of Rights would have been to offer them by way of amendment, that he could have done after the committee of the Whole had reported back the report to the Convention with the amendments. He could have got them inserted just as well, and even better, by offering them as amemendments, than by way of substi- tute for the whole biU. If he only wanted to change the phraseology — and I perceive that he has changed the language of the re- port but very little in the substitute he has offered — why did he not offer amendments to accomplish tliat purpose ? and not encumber the journals with a long substitute for the whole, and occupy the time of the Conven- tion with it ? Now, sir, it is not, as was taken for granted by another gentleman from Rice County, that the reason for tliis movement is that cer- tain gentlemen were absent when the report was considered in committee of the Whole. There is sompthing back of all that, and I am sorry to see it, and I hope I shall not see it in this Convention again. It is this matter of little jealousies and little piques, alleging that this committee and that committee have MIXXESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Tiesd at, Jclt 28. 15T infringed upon the rights of other committees. I think the time of this Convention should not be occupied with such tridal matters. Committeas were simply appointed to present to the Convention a firame work of a Consti- tution, which we are afterwards to side up, put on a cornice, a roof, «Sbc., without refer- ence to its origin from any committee what- ever. That is a matter of minor importance in this work, and they are worthy of no con- sideration in the deliberations of this body. The gentleman from Rice County has left out from his substitute certain sections which were claimed here, the other day, should have been reported from some other committee — I do not now recollect what they were and I care not. It is a petty jealousy which ought not to be recognized. Those sections are in their proper place. Just such sections are contained" in the Bill of Rights of every Con- stitution which has a Bill of Rights, and I care not from what committee they come. They are sections calculated to protect the rights of the people and they belong where they are, if anywhere. Now what ditference does it make whether one committee or another reported them ? It is of no importance. And now after the re- port has been considered in committee of the Whole for two or three days and reported back to the Convention with certain amend- ments, we should go to work and' adopt or reject those amendments, and then if any gentieman wishes to add an additional section, let him move to add it, and if we want to change the phraseology, we can do it If there is any section there which does not be- long to the Bill of Rights, it will be in order to move to strike it out. We should proceed in the straight forward, manly and parliamen- tary way. I make these remarks not because I have any personal feelings in the matter. I have not. I am willing to sit here six weeks if it is necessary to do so, but I desire that we should go directly forward and do our duty, be the time longer or shorter. I do not want to see the time of the Convention taken up in this trivial, imusual and undignified man- ner. Mr. COLBURN. I hope the motion wiU not prevail. I believe with the gentleman who last spoke, that it is our duty, as a Con- vention, to go directly to the consideration of the recommendation of the committee of the Whole. I can see notliing gained by refer- ring the report back to the committee. If it is so referred and they make another report, we shall have to go over the whole groimd again. It must be again considered in com- mittee of the Whole section by section, and I venture the prediction that there would be quite as many amendments offered the next time as there have been this. It is not to be supposed that the report of a committee on a subject of this kind is going to meet the views of every member ; and hence amend- ments will be offered again and again, and when we get through, it is not probable that we shall be any better off than we are now. My opinion therefore is, that we had better go on and consider the amendments. We shall save time and money by so doing. As regards the matter of the Chairman of the committee being absent, I must say that while I claim to have some regard to the ex- ercise of courtesy towards members, he has no claim to courtesy in this respect. A gen- tleman says he is absent on account of sick- ness in his family. I really very much doubt whether that is the reason why he is not in this Convention now. He told me some four days before he left, that he should leave and go home on thftt day. He told other gentle- men that he was going home to address a public meeting. He said nothing about sick- ness in his family. Again, in reference to his having considered this matter more fully than any other member. I doubt whether he. gave that consideration to the Bin of Rights which was given to it in committee of the Whole. He certainly drew it up in one evening — the very evening the committee was appointed — and presented it to the Convention the next day. He did not have time to give to it more consideration tlian other members have given to it, and I very much doubt whether he would make any such claim. From the very fact that he has been gone so long I do not consider that it is due to him, that this Convention should delay on his account. Mr. BALCOMBE. I would not have it understood that I am in favor of pressing the Convention to vote to-day upon the various committees or upon the gentleman's substi- 158 MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Tuesday, July 28. tute, but my idea is that if we want to await the return of the Chairman of the committee, or if we want more time to consider the sub- ject, the proper way would be to lay the re- port upon the table, where we can get at it at any time. It is the re-committal to the committee to which I am so much opposed, thereby compelling us to go over the whole matter again in the committee of the Whole upon the new report wliich that committee might make. I am opposed, too, to sending this substitute to the office to be printed, thereby incurring still further expense. Our expenses will be sufficient without incurring any that are unnecessary. I move that the report together Math the substitute be laid upon the table. Mr. McCLURE. I suppose all debate is cut off by that motion. 1 see some gentle- men here who always violate the rule by making two or three speeches, and then cut off" all debate by some motion. Mr. BALCOMBE. I withdraw my motion if the gentlemftn wishes to speak. Mr. McCLURE. I do not wish to take up the.time of the Convention, Mr. NORTH. I wish simply to say that if we had gone directly to work after we had reconsidered the motion to print, we should have got half through the bUl before this time. I am decidedly opposed to spending any more time in discussing the merits of one another here, or the complaints as to the manner in which the business of the Convention has been done. We had better proceed to busi- ness at once. I hope the motion to re-commit will not prevail, and if we are not to have the substi- tute printed, I hope we shall proceed section by section through the bill, and pass upon it to-day and have something finished. Mr. SECOMBE. I demand the yeas and nays upon the motion to re-commit. The yeas and nays were ordered. The roll was then called, and it was de- cided in the negative, yeas 8, nays 41, as fol- lows: Jeo*— -Messrs. Aldrich, Bolles, Folsom, Hayden, Stannard, Smith, Watson and Wilson. — 8. Hays. — Messrs. Anderson, Aycr, Balcombe, Bald- win, Bates, Bartholomew, Butler, Clcghorn, Col- bum, Coe, Cederstom, Coombs, Davis, Duley, Dickerson, Eschlic, Galbraith, Gerrish, Hall, Hard- ing, Hudson, llansoD, lloUcy, King, Kemp, Lylc, Mantor, McCann, McClure, Morgan, North, Phelps, Perkins, Putnam, Peckham, llobbins, Russell, Secombe, Vaughn, Walker, Winell, and Sheldon. —41. On motion of Mr. NORTH, the Convention then proceeded to the consideration of the amendments to the report. The first question being on the substitute off"ered by Mr. BOLLES. On motion of Mr. NORTH, the same was laid upon the table. The amendments reported by the commit- tee of the whole were then taken up and con- sidered as follows : First amendment, section three, line two, insert the word " such," so that the clause shall read, — ■ " Every person may freely speak, write and pub- lish his sentiments on all subjects, being responsi- ble for the abuse of such right." The amendment was concurred in. Third amendment, section two, insert after the word " libel" the words "or slander" and after the word "libellous" the words "or slanderous," so that the clause shall read, — " In all criminal prosecutions or indictments for libel or slander the truth may be given in evi- dence ; and if it shall appear to the jury that the matter charged as libellous or slanderous be true, and was published with good motives and for jus- tifiable ends, the party shall be acquitted ; and the jury shall have the right to determine the law and the fact." The amendment was concurred in. Third amendment, section two, strike out the words " the jury shall have the right to " determine the law and the fact" and insert : "in all indictments for libel, the jury after " having received the direction of the court, " shall have the right, to determine at their " discretion, the law and the fact." Mr. SECOMBE. I hope that amendment will not be adopted. I do not understand that it changes the effect of the provision as it now stands. As it now stands, under the conunon law, the jury are bound by the ruling charge of the judge, and if they find a verdict against that ruling or charge, tlio verdict could be properly set aside. If I un- derstand the object of the provision as inserted here, it is to take that power from the judge and give it to the jury, so tliat when they have heard the facts in the case — and they will hear, of course, for their enlightenment, and the law from both sides, and in addition to MINNESOTA CONTENTION DEBATES— Tcesdat, July 28. 159 that, the law from the judge, — then they are made the judges, not only of the facts in the case, but of the law. Now I do not under- stand how the provision of the amendment alters it. If it does alter it, it destroys the whole effect which is intended to be obtained. There is another difference, it makes a dis- tiaction between libel and slander. And if that was the intention of the mover of the amendment I should still be oposed to it, for I cannot consent to have libel, or written slander, receive a benefit which is denied to spoken slander. Slander when spoken has but a small circle in which it moves, but when it is written or printed it circulates not only more widely, but through a longer lapse of time, and it certainly should have no privilege over slander. But I suppose that was a dis- crepancy which arose from the fact that the amendment which has been adopted, was then under discussion. I am opposed to the amendment. Mr. "WILSON. I think, Mr. President, that the amendment contains about the idea we wish to incorporate. There are two theories upon the subject, — an old one, revered by many in our midst, that the court shall determine the law — which is the case in civil actions, and in most cases in ciiminal actions. The other is that the jury shall determine the law as well as the fact. I am in favor of the latter with a modification. There is not a man in the room who has sat upon a jury in a criminal case but has noticed the fact, that juries are generally composed of a class of men who do not see the point as quickly as might be, and that after a long and intricate case has been gone through with, a little explanation makes the point clear to them. I wish to make it the duty of the judge to state to the jury what the law is. Here is coimisel on the one side, and coimsel on the other. We do know that counsel, honest as they may be, when engaged in any case, naturally ^vill lean towards their own side, and they try to make that side the stronger. How fre- quently do we hear our coimsel 'declare— -and especially wiU that be the case when the jury are made judges of the law — ^that the law is so and so, while the other declares that such is not the fact. Now the judge, sitting upon the bench, is supposed to know what the law is, and he usually does know. The judge is not interested, he is not feed upon either side; nor are his prejudices and feelings enlisted on either side. He sits as a moderator upon both parties, and he states to the jury what the law is. After that time the jury are left at perfect freedom to decide whether the law is interpre- ted by the judges or not. All that is proposed by this amendment is that the judge shall state the law to the jury, for the purpose of enUghtening them — which I think is necessary in almost every case. After he has done so, it is at their discretion to decide whichever way they please. It is not the same provis* ion that is contained in the original section, nor does it destroy any principle contained in that section. Mr. NORTH. I differ with the gentleman who has just taken his seat, and I hope the amendment will not be conciured in, for this reason : if it is necessary at all to legislate upon the duties of the judge and jury, and especially to change the law either in civil or criminal cases, I do not think that this is the place to do it. We simply set forth the rights and powers of juries in this case, and that is all we need to do. I suppose that it is under- stood that the power of the judge to charge the jury in cases of slander, as well as in aU other cases, is already abundantly secured. But even if it is necessary to have a special law to that effect, it is better to have it else- where than in the BiU of Rights. Mr. McCLURE. I hope the amendment will be concurred in. I was opposed to this amendment when it was first suggested by the gentlemen from Winona, (Mr. Wilson.) I do not understand that the original report of the committee prohibited the judge fit)m instructing the jury upon any point of law which either party might require. Hence I should ha'^e been entirely opposed to any amendment upon that ground, beUeving as I do, that either party may ask the court to charge the jury in regard to it. The court may give it, and the jury give what weight they choose to it. But I am in favor of the amendment now, from the fact that it wiU have an important bearing to show what the sense of this Convention is upon another point — that is upon the amendment which has just been adopted — offered by the gentleman fix)m St. Anthony, (Mr. Secombe) inserting the words "slander" and "slanderous" 160 MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Tuesday, July 23. whereby we said that an indictment under the laws of the land may be sustained for verbal slander. Now it seems to me that this amendment of the gentleman from Winona, will show, when this clause of the Constitu- tion goes out to the people, that it was not the intention of this Convention to say any such thing, for he confines his amendn>ent to the term "libel." It seems to me that it will show conclusively that this Convention never did intend to say that an indictment could be found for verbal slander. I am in favor of it upon that ground, in order that it may place us right upon that subject ; for so far as I am concerned, I do not wish to have it under- stood that I would advocate and vote for this clruse without the term " slander " in it, for I do not imderstand that, according to the laws of this country, an indictment can be found against an individual for verbal slander. Mr. NORTH. I am still opposed to the amendment, and for the very reason just assigned. I am decidedly opposed to this Convention instituting a distinction which has not been heretofore instituted, and a dis- tinction which, to my mind, has no founda- tion in reason or philosophy — a distinction between a slander uttered by the mouth and that uttered by the pen. The idea of making an act a penal offence and indictable, when done in one way, and not when done in another, is nonsense. I do not know why it is not just as wrong for me to accuse my neighbor of theft or robbery, and circulate that with my lips, whispering it here and there through the community wherever I could get an opportunity, and why it is not as com- mon to produce injurious results in that man- ner, as it is to sit down and write that same thing and publish it through the newspapers. I do not know why the effect is not the same. I do not know why the thing itself is not the same, and it seems to me that the law author- ities have so regarded it. I do not see any reason why this Convention should make any distinction in that particular. Mr. SECOMBE. I feel called upoh to make a few furtlicr remarks upon this sub- ject. I supposed after I read the authority upon this subject the other day, while wo were in committee of the Whole, that no member of this Convention would think it an extraordinary thing that this Convention should recognize the principles of the Ameri-' can common law as laid down in every ele- mentary treatise published in this country. When I oflfered, in the committee of the Whole, an amendment to insert the words " slander," and "slanderous," in connection' with "libel," and "libelous." I never sup- posed any gentleman would raise that ques- tion. I did not have any doubt in my own mind, bnt after a gentleman did raise the question, I immediately began to look about to see if I had made such an egregious blun- der as that. I found that a majority of tho legal members of this Convention differed with me upon that point, and I took the pains to consult the authorities upon the subject, and I laid my hand on Wuakton's American common law, and read from it the other day.- I now propose to read the same sections again. On pages five hundred and thirty-four and five of that work, I find the following : "An indictment will lie for all words spoken of another which impute to him the commission of some crime punishable by law, such as high trea- son, murder, or other felony (whether by statute or at common law) forgery, perjury, subornation of perjury, and other misdemeanors." "An indictment will lie for all words spoken of another which will have the effect of excluding him from society, as for instance to cliarge him with having an infectious disease, such as leprosy, the vchereal disease, the itch or the like. But charging him with having had a contagious dis- ease is not actionable, for, as this relates to time past, it is no reason why his society should be avoided ai present." On page five hundred and thirty-six the limitation of this doctrine is found : "No indictment however will lie for words not reduced to writing unless they be seditious, blas- phemous, grossly immoral, or uttered to a magis- trate in the execution of his office, or uttered as a challenge to fight a duel, or with an intention to provoke the other party to send a challenge." Now it seems to me, there is authority which this Convention need not feel ashamed to recognize. If this amendment prevails, after the recommendation of the committee of the Whole shall have been passed upon, I shall move an additional amendment to this very section, as it will stand amended, to insert the word "slander," in this very place. A word further in regard to the interpreta- tion given by the gentleman from Winona to MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Tlksday, Jlly 28. 161 tiie object of this provision, and that is that the judge might act as] the tMrd counsel in tlie case, that he might have the privilege of arguing to the jury what the law was, and that they then should decide it according to their own discretion. I would be the last one to inflict upon the judge the duty of stating the law to the jury with the tmderstanding that it was mere gratuitous advice upon his part. If the judge is to decide the law, let it be so understood, and if the jury are to de- cide the law, let that be equally well under- stood, and then let the judge use his discre- tion about charging the jury. Mr. MORGAN. I hope the amendment wiU not prevail, and if it does not, I shall move to strike out all after the word " ac- quitted," in this section, for the purpose of inserting the general rule by adding thereto the words "in all criminal cases the jury shall have the right to determine the law and fact." As the section now stands it is unne- cessary and partial, for it only applies to cases of libel and slander. It is a well un- derstood rule of law that in all cases the jury are obliged to determine the law and the fact. That has always been admitted. No jury can ever determine and find a verdict in a criminal case, without, to some extent, de- termining the law. A man, for instance, is charged with burglary, and the first question to determine is whether the facts constitute, in law, burglary ; or whether it is petty lar- ceny, or some other ofiense. It is in fact, the common law rule, recognized not only in this country but in England, that the jury must in every criminal case, to some extent, deter- mine the law. That is, whether the crime charged was committed in fact, and whether the facts with which the criminal is charged, do, in fact, constitute that crime. If the criminal is charged with murder, the first thing to determine is whether murder has been committed, or whether it is not man- slaughter. It seems to me the rule should be general, and that there should be inserted a clause such as I have mentioned. The rule has been more extended in some States than in others, and there has been some very laugha- ble results from it. I recollect that upon the trial in Massachusetts of some persons charged with a.«!sisting in the escape of fugi- 21 tive slaves, the people of that State thought that the law in reference to instruction to juries, was rather too harsh, and they passed a law leaving it to the jury to decide tlie law in criminal cases. The first application of that law made by juries, was to decide that the Maine liquor law was unconstitutional. And in every case which was brought up in Boston, the juries decided that the law was not law because it was imconstitutional, and there was no case of conviction under that law for more than two years, because the juries had the right to decide what was law and what was not law. But it seems to me there is no question but that jurors have always had the right to de- cide the law in criminal cases, Mr. LOWE demanded the yeas and nays upon the amendment. The yeas and nays were ordered. The question was then taken and it was decided in the negative. Yeas twenty-one, and nays thirty-one, as follows : Teas — Messrs. Aldridh, Anderson, Balcombe, Billings, Butler, Cederstam, Dickerson, Folsom, Gerrish, Hajden, Holley, Lisle, Lowe, Mantor, McCann, McClure, Mills, Peckham, Smith, "Walker, and Wilson — 21. Nays — Messrs. Aver, Baldwin, Bates, Bartholo- mew, Bolles, Cleghom, Colburn, Coe, Davis, Duley, Eschlie, Galbraith, Hall, Harding, Hud- son, Hanson, King, Kemp, Morgan, North, Phelps, Perkins, Putnam, Bobbins, Russell, Stannard, Secombe, Vaughn, Winell, Watson and Sheldon. — 31i Mr. KING moved (at fovur o'clock and ten minutes) that the Convention adjourn. The motion was not agreed to. Fourth Amendment. — (A mere verbal amendment, and was con- curred in.) Fifth Amendment. — Strike out all of section seven and insert the following : " In all criminal prosecutions the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial by an impartial jury of the county or district wherein the criminal shall have been committed, which county or district shall have been previously ascer- tained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation against him ; to be confronted with the witnesses against him ; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to hava the assistance of coonsel for his defence. Mr. HUDSON. I cannot understand that there is any difference between that substi- 162 MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Tuesday, Jult 28. tute and the original section, except in the phraseology. The original section is in these words : "In all criminal prosecutions the accused shall enjoy the right to be heard by himself and counsel; to demand the nature and cause of the accusation against him ; to meet the witnesses face to face ; to have compulsory process to compel the attend- ance of witnesses in his behalf, and in prosecutions by indictment or information, to a speedy public trial by an impartial jurj' of the county or district wherein the offence shall have been committed, which county or district shall have been previously ascertained by law." If there is to be any amendments made to that, I suppose it would be the particular business of tlie committee on Arrangement and Phraseology to suggest it, and tmless we can materially improve it, I do not see why we should adopt the substitute. Mr. SECOMBE. I would state for the information of the gentleman, that the provis- ion in question, offered as an amendment in committee of the Whole, was agreed upon after a long discussion and the offering of a great many propositions as amendments. This amendment is equivalent to a provision in the Constitution of the United States, and was adopted as a union measure. That accounts for its appearance here, and yet perhaps it is not materially different from the original section. Mr. PERKINS. The intention and pur- port of the original section is the same as a similar section in the Constitution of the United States. But it was not expressed in precisely the same language, and in my opinion not as good language. The clause in the Constitution of the United States, like most clauses in that instrument, has received a judicial interpretation, and has come to be understood very uniformly. The language used there is significant, and expi'esses just the idea intended to be conveyed. There was some debate in the committee upon the mean- ing of this section. There was more particu- larly a discussion upon the meaning of the words " to meet the witnesses face to face," and as it reads in the original clause without any addition to it, in my judgment it means nothing at all. It was to get rid of such equivocal clauses, that the words of the Con- stitution of the United States were adopted word for word, and it seems to me no gen- tleman can object to a substitute of that kind. The amendment was concurred in. Sixth Amendment. — Section eight, after the word "himself" insert the words, "nor be de- prived of life, liberty or property without due process of law." The amendment was concurred in. Seventh Amendment. — Section fourteen, strike out the word " agricultural." The original clause of the section reads as follows ; "Leases and grants of agricultural land for a longer term than fifteen years, in which rent or service of any kind shall be reserved, and all fines and like restraints upon alienation reserved in any grant of land hereafter made, are declared to be void." Mr. MORGAN. I hope the amendment will not be concurred in. Sueh a provision would be unprecedented. I do not think that a provision prohibiting the lease of land not agricultural, can be found in the Constitution of any State of the Union. Leases of non-' agricultural lands are as common as any mode of conveyance. Leases of town lots for fifty or a hundred years are veiy common, and leases of water power and other rights have been common in every country. Now I apprehend that the object of a Bill of Rights is to protect persons in their rights, and not to prohibit their use. We undertake to say here, that a man who holds a lot of land, shall not have it for more than fifteen years. That is a direct prohibition of the use of his land^ I do not sec vrhy, if I desire to keep a piece of land for my children, I should be deprived of the privilege of leasing it more than fifteen years. In many cases it is an advantageous mode of dealing with property, both for the lessor and the lessee. Town lots are fre- quently leased for a long time for the purpose of being built upon, and both parties derive advantage from it — the party owning the land being able to lease it, and to receive a remun- erative rent for a long period of time, and the lessee being able to get it at a rate wliich will justify his putting improvements upon it. There are many instances where it is actually necessary, in order that the parties may receive an adequate benefit, that they should have the right of leasing for a considerable length of time. The amendment makes the section apply to all lands. The objection to a restriction to MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Tuesday, July 28. 163 agricultural lands is not so great as to other lands. Such a provision has been introduced into the Constitution of Wisconsin. It was thought a great innovation to introduce it there. I do not see the particular object of intro- ducing this into the Bill of Rights at all. Bather than protecting men in their rights, it restricts them in the enjojinent of them. As to the extent of the application of this right to the disposal of property, I would say that the "Lock and Canal Company " of Lowell, Massachusetts, being the owner of the whole water power at that place, leased out water rights and land right s for the period of nine hundred and ninety nine years, so that the whole power might be used. Those water rights are now held under those leases, and it would not have been possible to divide that power in any other way. The same disposi- tion may be made of the water power at St. Anthony Falls. There are two companies upon both sides of the river which own the whole power, and they hope to lease it out to permanent occupants for long terms, who will thereby be justified in putting permanent buildings upon it. A restiiction of tliis kind would interfere very materially with the rights of property in a great many instances. There are leases in this City of St. Paul for a much longer period than fifteen years. A large portion of the territory of the cities of Baltimore and Philadelphia are held under long leases, and thereby the poor man, by paying a nominal ground rent, is enabled to erect a dwelling for himself, and then if he desires to sell it he seUs his lease. The question was then taken, and the amendment was not concurred in. Ninth Amendment. — Section sixteenth, add thereto the words "except in cases of fraud" so that it shall read: "No person shall be imprisoned for debt arising out or founded upon any contract expressed or implied, unless in cases of fraud." The amendment was concurred in. Tenth Amendment. — Section seventeen, after the word "wholesome" insert the word "exemption" and strike out all after the word "laws" so that the section shall read : " The right of the debtor to enjoy the necessary comforts of life shall be recognized by wholesome exemption laws." Mr. ALDRICH called for a division of the question, first on inserting, and then upon striking out. The question was taken upon each portion of the amendment separately, and they were severally concurred in. Eleventh Amendment. — Section eighteen, after the word "ajy" insert the words "religious or " ecclesiastical," so that that clause of the section shall read : " The right of every man to worship God ac- cording to the dictates of his own conscience shall never be infringed ; nor shall any man be com- pelled to attend, erect or support any place of wor- ship, or to maintain any religious or ecclesiastical ministry against his consent." Mr. MORGAN. I would state to the Con- vention that the reason why I offered that amendment was, because the word " minis- try" is a general term, and originally meant " servant," and it is frequently used in that sense now. We have the ministry, for in- stance, of instruction. The intention was to provide against the compulsory attendance or support of any reli^ous ministry. The amendment was concurred in.- Twelfth Amendment. — Strike out all of section twenty-four, and insert the following : " Dueling is an evil and shall never be allowed in this State." Mr. NORTH. I move to strike out of the substitute the words " dueling is an evil." The amendment was agreed to. Mr. LOWE. I now submit to the Con- vention whether it is not advisable to strike out the rest of the substitute. It strikes me that we have so reduced the section that it soimds quite flat, and I hope it will all be left out. Mr. SECOMBE. I am opposed to the amendment as it now stands, or as it stood before amended. I would not consent to have any provision in regard to dueling in the Con- stitution, except as a disqualification for of- fice. I do not know why we should pick out any particular crime, and say that it shall not exist in this State. We might as well say that the crime of miwder, manslaughter, or larceny shall not exist in this State. But I think it would be proper to say that dueling should be a disqualification for office. I should be in favor of that and that only. Consequently I am in favor of the section as it originally stood, before it was amended by the committee. The amendment was then non-concurred in. XH MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Tuesday, July 28. Thirteenth Amendment. — Strike out all of sec- tion twenty -five which is as follows : "The criminal code shall be founded on prin- ciples of reformation and not of vindictive jus- tice." The amendment was not concurred in. '• Fourteenth Amendment. — Insert the following additional section : Sec. — The enumeration of the foregoing rights shall not be construed to impair or deny any others retained by the people." Mr. SECOMBE. I think the language of that section should be slightly altered. I do not understand that the people are giving up any rights by declaring this Bill of Rights. The word '' retain" was the word used in the Constitution of the United States where the States did give up to the general government certain rights, and that word would be proper in case the people were giving up, by this bill, certain of their rights. I move to amend by striking out the word " retain" and ipsert the word " possessed." Mr. MORGAN. I hope the amendment recommended by the committee will not be concurred in. It seems to me mere surplus- sage, having no force whatever. The section was taken from the Constitution of the United States, which was adopted under different circumstances from ours. There the people did give up certain rights to the general gov- ernment. But the section has no application to our case, and it has never been inserted in the Constitution of any State. We retain all the rights we had before, and the Bill of Rights is merely a guarantee to us of those rights. Mr. ALDRICH. It seems to me that the section is all right as it now stands. The ob- ject is to give a portion of the people's rights to the oflBcers of the government, and to re- tain a portion. It strikes me that the word *' retain" is a better word than " possess," and we certainly have some rights which we have not delegated to anybody, and which we vill not delate. Mr. SECOMBE. I do not understand tliat in this bill we delegate any of our rights to any person or body. We merely enunciate certain of the principal rights that we possess and we do not wish to have it understood by that enunciation, because we do not happen to mention certain other."?, that we have not got them. Mr. ALDRICH. We do not delegate them in the Bill of Rights, but we do in the Con- stitution before we get through. Tlie amendment to the section was not agreed to. Mr. NORTH. I now hope the additional section will not be agreed to. It seems to me to be entirely unnecessary, to be meaningless, and that it can have no real force. In fact it amounts to nothing. In the Bill of Rights we simply set forth certain rights, but we do not propose to take any rights from anybody, and to say that the setting forth any rights we do not impair any rights we retain, is sur- plusage and can have no effect in any man- ner. I do not think we should encumber our Bill of Rights with anj^thing which does not have a direct, plain, and tangible meaning. The amendment was not concurred in. Mr. NORTH. I now move to insert tho following additional section : " Sec. — Married women shall have the right to; hold and convey real and personal property in their own right and separately from their hus- bands". Mr. SECOMBE. I move to amend that amendment, by adding thereto the words "and to contract on their own behalf." Mr. NORTH. I accept the amendment. Mr. BILLINGS, To contract what? Mr. SECOMBE. Any and every thing they please. My object is to put women upon the same footing witht men in regard to doing business, so that she may enter into, business upon her own account, buy and sell, and enter into contracts of aU kinds in the same way and manner that a man does. I think there is a Constitutional provision like this in tlie Constitution of CaUfo3,Tia, and I would like to see it adopted here. If women are to. hold property in their own names, they should have the right to use that property so as to increase it. Mr. LOWE. The gentleman would do. well to mention also, that we leam by the last accounts from California, that that pro- vision has been found to operate so badly, that the people desire to repeal it. I am in favor of doing something for widows too, (laughter) and for the whole female sex, but it may be objected that it would be infring- ing upon the business of the Legislature. I wish to do as much for women a."! possible, MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Tuesday, July 28. 165 but not in violation of the laws. (Laugh- ter.) Mr. WILSON. Then I hope it is a joke all thi-ough. Tliis matter of permitting mar- ried women to dispose of their property with- out the consent of their husbands is all wrong. The husband cannot dispose of his real prop- erty \\'ithout the consent of his wife, and now they want us to say that a woman is not only as good as a man for doing business, but that she is his superior. A husband cannot con- vey his real estate and deprive his w=ife of her dower, but you would allow a woman to con- vey her real estate and leave the husband no right in it whatever. It is aU wrong. A woman does not understand any thing about buying and bartering real estate. I hope we shall be serious about this matter or else make it a joke out and out. Mr, MANTOR. Like the gentleman from Winona, I really imagined that when that amendment was offered, it was a mere mat- ter of joke, and that nobody was serious about it. But it proves not to be a matter of joke. I am convinced that if Astoixette L. Brown-, LrcY Stone, and Abbey Kelley should hear of the adoption of this section, they would send up to this Convention a let- ter of congratulation. It seems to me a pre- posterous idea, although in this day of new fangled notions it is not to be wondered at that we should attempt to give to a certain portion of the fair sex the right to hold prop- erty in their own names, and to convey it without the consent of their husbands. If this appendage is to be added to our Bill of Eights, I should be in favor of amending it so as to do something for the widows. But the whole matter seems to me to be absurd and ridiculous in the extreme. I should like to see the matter disposed of in all seriousness. Mr. NORTH. In offeiing that section in the form in which I did, I intended no joke. I meant to be as serious as the gentlemen who have spoken upon the subject, and I meant it to the fullest extent gentlemen have construed it — that married wonaen should have the right not only to hold personal and real property in their own right, but to have the right to convey it independently and freely without any control whatever upon the part of their husbands. Now it may be that that is going too far, and that the hu.^band should have the right of dower, or something equivalent to it. But in the state of facts which exist it is rare for a maiTied woman to hold any prop- erty at all. She seldom holds property in her own right except in cases in which it is important that she should have the complete and unrestricted control of it. How often do we see cases where the friends of a woman, having a dissipated husband, are disposed to do something for her and her children — are anxious to give her property if it could be placed beyond the control of her husband — but are prevented from doing it on account of liis dissipated habits. There may indeed be a few cases where this provision would work an inconvenience and wi'ong to the hus- band, but there are a multitude of cases where the restraint upon a woman's convey- ing without the consent of her husband, does work great inconvenience and wrong. I think that for answering the ends of justice, and subserving the object for which that provis- ion is offered, it Ls now in just the right shape, but if any one wishes to change it so as to give the husband the right to dower in his wife's real estate, I shall have no objection. Mr. SECOMBE. I was equally in earnest in proposing the amendment I did ; for while I hold that it is proper and right that married women should hold property in their own names, whether it is acquired by their own labor, or bestowed upon them as a gift, or inherited, I at the same time beheve that wo- men should have the right to use their property to the best advantage, so that they may in- crease it, so that if it is a benefit to her in its original state, it will be increased by this privilege. Gentlemen have stated that if this provis- ion is adopted, they should be obliged to move an additional section in favor of wid- ows. I take it that there is no gentieman here who does not know that unmarried women have the right to hold property and to buy and sell, and carry on business. It is not necessary that a person should be a male in order to hold property and do business. But it is necessary that there should be some provision in regard to married women, to give them the same rights that single women have. I therefore hope the amendment offered by the gentleman from Rice county will pass. The gentleman from Winona [Mr. WilsoxJ 166 MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Wednesday, July 29. complains that the husband cannot sell his real estate without the joining of the wife, so as to cut off her right of dower. The gen- tleman from Winona will admit that the wife cannot sell her real estate without the joining of her husband so as to cut off his right by courtesy, which is given by the same code of laws wliich gives the right of dower to the wife. Mr. MORGAN. It seems to me that this is going a little too far. As th« law now is the wife has the right of dower in her hus- band's real estate, and the husband cannot cut it off by a conveyance during his life time, nor by devise. As an offset to that tlie hus- band has always had the right to courtesy in the wife's real estate, — that is, when the wife dies and leaves real estate the husband has the right of using that real estate during his life time, and he is called tenant by courtesy. Now what is proposed by this section is, not only to allow the wife to take and hold her right of dower to the full extent, but to cut off the husband's right to courtesy by allow- ing her to convey without the husband's con- sent; or to devise so that after her death h« can have no interest in her real estate. It seems to me that that is going further than is required of us. I am perfectly willing to protect a married woman's property to a rea- sonable extent, but no further. I tliink this section goes too far. Mr. NORTH. I have no idea that we can get through with this amendment this even- ing, and therefore I move that the Convention adjourn. The motion was agreed to, and thereupon the Convention, (at five o'clock and fifteen minutes) adjourned. FIFTEENTH DAY. Wednesday, July 29, 1857. The Convention met at nine o'clock, a. m. Prayer by the Chaplain, Rev. E. D. Neill. KEPORTS OF COMMITTEES. Mr. RUSSELL, from the committee to whom was referred that part of the Consti- tution which relates to County and Township organization, made the following report, which was read a first and second time and laid on the table to be printed, viz : CO UXTY organizations — ARTICLE. Section 1. Each organized county shall be a body corporate, with such powers and immunities as shall be established by law. All suits or pro- ceedings by or against a county shall be in the name thereof. Sec. 2. No new county shall be formed or es- tablished by the Legislature of less area than four hundred square miles, nor shall any organized county be divided, or have any part stricken there- from, without submitting the question to a vote of the electors of the county or counties to be directly affected or dismembered, and unless a majority of all the votes cast shall be in favor of the same. Sec. 3. No county seat shall be removed until the point to which it is proposed to be removed shall be designated by two-thirds of the Board of Supervisors of the county, and a majority of the electors of the county voting thereon shall have voted in favor of the removal of the county seat to the proposed location in such manner as shall be prescribed bj' law. Sec. 4. The Legislature may organize any city into a separate county when it has attained a pop^ ulation of twenty thousand inhabitants, without reference to geographical extent, when a majority of the electors of a county in which such city may be situated, voting thereon shall be in favor of a separate organization. Cities shall have such rep- resentation in the Board of Supervisors of the counties in which they are situated as the Legisla- ture n;ay direct. Sec. 5. A board of supervisors, consisting of one from each organized township, shall be es- tablished in each county with such powers as shall be prescribed by law. Sec. 6. The board of supervisors of any county shall have the exclusive power to prescribe and fix the compensation for all services rendered for, and to adjust all claims against their respective counties. Sec. 7. The board of supervisors of each or- ganized county may provide for laying out and con- structing highways and organizing townships, un- der such restrictions and limitations as shall be prescribed by law. Sec. 8. The board of supervisors of any county may borrow or raise by tax one thousand dollars for constructing or repairing public buildings and highways ; but no greater sum shall be borrowed or raised by tax for such purpose in any one year, unless authorized by a majority of the electoi's of such county voting thereon, and they shall have such powers of local taxation for public purposes as may be prescribed by law. Sec. 9. In each organized county there shall bo a Sheriff, a County Clerk, a County Treasurer, a Register of Deeds, a Prosecuting Attorney, a Su- perintendent of Common Schools, a County Sur- veyor, and a Coroner, chosen by the electors there- of once in two years, and as oftsn as vacancies shall happen, whose powers and duties shall bo MIXXESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Wedxesdat, July 29. 167 prescribed by law. The board of Supervisors in any county may unite the oflBces of county clerk and register of deeds in one ofl&ce or disconnect the same. Sec. 10. The sberiflF shall hold no other office, and shall be incapable of holding the office of sher- iff longer than four in any period of six years. He may be required by law to renew his security from time to time, and in default of giving such security his office shall be deemed vacant. Sec. 11. All county officers may be removed in such manner and for such cause as shall be pre- scribed by law. TOWSSHIP OBGAXIZATIOXS. AKTICLE. Sectiox 1. Each organized township shall be a body corporate with such powers and immunities as shall be prescribed by law. All suits and pro- ceedings by or against a township shall be in the name thereof. Sec. 2. There shall be elected annually in each organized township, one Supervisor, one Township Clerk, three Commissioners of Highways, one Township Assessor, one Township Treasurer, three School Commissioners, one Overseer for each Highway District, not exceeding four Constables, whose powers and duties shall be prescribed by law. Sec. 8. Justices of the peace and Township officers may be removed in such manner and for such cause as shall be prescribed by law. Mr. BALDWIN, from the committee to whom was referred the report of the Consti- tution relating to Educational Institutions and Interests, made the following report : Sectiox 1. The superintendent of public in- struction shall have the general supervision of public instruction and his duties shall be prescribed .- law. Sec. 2. The proceeds of all lands that have been or that may hereafter be granted by the United States for the support of schools, which may be sold or disposed of, and all estates of de- ceased persons who may have died without leav- ing a will or heir, shall be and remain a perpetual fund, the interest of which, together with all the rfents of the unsold lands, and such other means as the Legislature shall provide shall be exclu- sively applied to the following objects, viz : First. — The support and maintenance of com- mon schools in each school district and the pur- chase of suitable libraries and apparatus therefor. Second. — The residue shall be appropriated to the support and maintenance of academies and normal schools and suitable libraries therefor. Sec. 3. The Legislature shall, within five years firom the adoption of this Constitution, provide for and establish a system of common schools, w^hich shall be as nearly uniform as practicable, whereby B school shall be kept without charg* for tuition, at least three months in each year, in every School District in the State, and all instructions in said schools shall be in the English language, and no sectarian instruction shall be allowed therein. Sec 4. Provision shall be made by law for the distribution of the income of the school fimd among the several towns and cities of the State for the support of common schools therein, in some just proportion to the number of children and youth resident therein, between the ages of four and twenty years, and no appropriation shall be made from the school fund to any school district for the year in which a school shall not be main- tained at least three months. Sec. 5. The Legislature shall provide for the establishment of a library in each school district^ and all fines assessed and collected in the several counties and townships, for any breach of the penal laws shall be exclusively applied to the support of such libraries. Sec 6. There shall be elected in each judicial circuit at the time of the election of the judge of such circuit, a regent of the university, whose term of office shall be the same as that of such judge The regents thus elected shall constitute the board of regents of the university of Minnesota. Sec 7. The regents of the university and their successors in office shall continue to constitute the body corporate, known by the name and title of " The Regents of the University of Minnesota." They shall have the general supervision of the university, and the direction and control of all expenditures from the university interest fund. Sec 8. The Secretary of State, State Treasui:er, and Attorney General, shall constitute a board of commissioners for the sale of the school and uni- versity lands, and for the investment of the funds arising therefrom. Any two of said commissioners shall be a quorum for the transaction of all busi- ness pertaining to the duties of their office. Sec. 9. Provision shall be made by law for the sale of all school and university lands, after they shall have been appraised, and that notice that such sale will take place shall in all cases be given at least three months prior thereto, by publication in the newspapers, and by posters placed in conspicu- ous places in the county in which such lands are sit- uated. Xo sale shall take effect unless at least one- fourth of the purchase money be paid at the time of the sale, and when such lands shall be sold, and a portion of the purchase money shall not be paid at the time of the sale, the Commissioners shall take security by mortgage upon the land sold, for the sum remaining unpaid, with twelve per cent interest thereon, payable annually at the office of the Treasurer, except on timbered lands, which may be depreciated in value, for which the com- missioners shall require such additional security as shall by them be deemed amply sufficient fof ensure the purchase of the payment money upon such lands remaining unpaid. The commissioners shall be authorized to execute a good and sufficient conveyance to all purchasers of such lands, and to discharge any mortgage taken as security wh«6 168 MINNESOTA C0NVI:NTI0N DEBATES— Wednesday, July 29. the sum due thereon shall be paid. The commis- sioners shall have power to withhold from sale any portion of such land when they shall deem it expedient) and shall invest moneys arising from the sale of such lands, as well as university and school funds, in such manner as the Legislature shall provide, and shall give such security for the faithful performance of their duties as may be required by law. Sec. 10. The board of supervisors in each bounty shall constitute a board of appraisers, whose duty it shall be, within three months previ- ous to the time any school or university lands in their respective counties are offered for sale, to fix the valuation thereof, and in no case shall any portion of such lands be sold for less than the appraised value. Sec. 11. Institutions for the benefit of those inhabitants who are deaf, dumb, blind or insane, shall always be fostered and sustained. Sec. 12. The Legislature shall encourage the promotion ofintellectual,scientific, and agricultural improvements, and shall, as soon as practicable, provide for the establishment of an agricultural school. The Legislature may appropriate all salt springs, with the six sections of land adjoining or contiguous thereto, to which the State, on admis- sion into the Union shall be entitled according to the provisions of the Act of Congress, entitled " An Act to authorize the people of Minnesota to " form a Constitution and State Government pre- "paratory to their admission into the Union on an "equal footing with the original States," and any land which may hereafter be granted or appropria- ted for suth purpose, for the support and main- tenance of such school, and may make the same a branch of the luiiversity for instruction in agri- culture and the patural sciences connected there- with, and place the same under the supervision of the regents of the university. The report was read a first and second time, and laid on the table to be printed ^ Under the order of business, the following resolution was taken from the table and con- sidered, viz : "Bfgohed, That the object of a Constitution is to organize a government prescribing the nature and extent of the powers of the several depart- ments thereof, and that to engraft any legislative enactments therein would be anti-Republican. Further that a Hill of Rights should only be decla- ratory of fundamental piinciples." Mr. FOSTER. That resolution contains but a simple declaration of sentiment. It may be all very well. I presilme nobody disputes its main proposition, but really, it seems hardly worth while to put such a de- claration upon our journals. Every body concedes that we ought not to have a code of laws in our Constitution, and the only point of difference between any of us, would be as to what constitutes legislation, and what wcro abstract fundamental principles. One mem- ber thinks we should lay down certain points in the Constitution which are necessary to guide legislation, and he would make them full and explicit. Another member thinks differently. Now pass that resolution and the same thing will be still constantly occur- ring. It can do no good. I am opposed to affirming a mere truism. Mr. NORTH. Should we make a com- plete code of laws in our Constitution, I would inquire if that VA'Ould necessarily make it anti-Republican in its fonn ? I do not ex- actly see the truth asserted in that resolution, and therefore shall vote against it. Mr. RUSSELL moved that the resolution be laid upon the table. The motion was agreed to. PKEAMBLE AND BILL OP EIGHTS. The Convention next proceeded imder the order of business, to the consideration of the report of the committee upon the Preamble and Bill of Rights. The first question was upon the amendment offered yesterday, as follows : " Sec. — ^ Married women shall have the right to hold and convey real and personal property in their own right separately from their husbands, and to contract on their own behalf." Mr. SECOMBE. I offer the followmg sub- stitute for that section : " The common law disability of married womer to hold, enjoy, and convey real property, and to contract on their own behalf shall not exist in this State." I wish to make a few remarks upon this subject, in addition to what I said yesterday. It was intimated in Convention at that time, that the amendment offered by the gen- tleman from Rice county, [Mr. North] was offered as a joko^ and that there was nothing serious about it. That intimation has since been repeated in connection with members of the Convention. Now I have to say so far as I am concerned, I attempted no joke in this matter. I prefer the substitute I have offered, and I believe it is acceptable to the gentleman from Rice county. It conveys the same meaning he intended to have conveyed in the original. The common law prohibits married MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Wedkesdat, July 29. 169 women from holding, in their own names, real and personal property : disposing of it, and entering into contracts upon their ovra behalf. It does not prohibit single women, either maidens or widows, from the exercise of those rights. For one, I do not beUeve it is right, just, or equitable, that when a wo- man contracts marriage, she shall lose the rights she possessed before. It throws a barrier in the way of marriage. It also offers an inducement to those who are in the bonds of mati'imony to get out in some way. Objections were made to the amendment proposed yesterday, on the ground that it gave an advantage to married women over married men. Although I do not so under- stand the amendment, yet the substitute is offered to obviate that difficulty. It was sta- ted in the com-se of the argument yesterday, that a married man had, under the principles of the common law, a right by courtesy to the estate of his wife after her death, in certain circimastances ; also, that a married woman possessed a similar right to dower in the estate of her husband, and that the amend- ment offered by the gentleman from Rice county proposed to take away that right from the husband, and still retain it for the wife. Now under the workings of the substitute I have offered, there can be no such objection as that. If I understand the principles of law correctly, it would leave the husband and wife upon an equal footing in regard to the whole thing of having property and making contracts. K the husband shoiild convey his property without the signature of the wife, her right of dower would remain unim- paired, and if the wife should convey her property without the signature of her hus- ^ band, his right to courtesy would remain imim- paired. "We have already adopted in our Bill of Rights, a provision in contravention of the principles of the common law upon this sub- ject. We have provided that no distinction diall be made in this State between resident Idiens and citizens, in regard to the holding or conveying of property. And it is equally proper that we should contravene the provis- ions of the common law in this case, if we deem such a provision just and equitable. Mr. FOSTER. One question as to the bearing of that amendment. Am I to under- 22 stand that in case an'amendment of tliis kind is adopted, the wife would have" the^right to convey her real estate without the consent, or participation, in anyj manner of her hus- band ? Mr. SECOMBE. I understand fthelwife to have the same right to convey her property without the consent of her husband, that the husband has to convey without the consent of the wife. Mr. FOSTER. I understand that now, by the common law, a husband has an interest in the ^wife's real estate after her death. Is that so? Mr. SECOMBE. That is my understand- ing of it. Mr. FOSTER. And that would still be reserved if this substitute should be adopted ? Mr. SECOMBE. Certamly. Mr. FOSTER. Another question. "Would this substitute authorize the wife to convey absolutely by devise, without any reservation of the husband's rights ? Mr. SECOMBE. I would sunply say, in answer to the question, that it is my imder- standing, that she would have the same rela- tive right to convey her property, in the same manner that the husband would have. But I am not prepared to give a dissertation upon the principles of the common law to the full- est extent. Mr. FOSTER. This is a very important matter, and we should be careful to make no mistake; The principle affects the whole social fabric, and if we should adopt anything which is not well matured, it might tend to loosen the bonds which bind society together. Now I am disposed to sustain the rights of woman as woman, and not to ignore her existence and rights to the extent which the old feudal system did, but at the same time I see a disposition abroad in commimity to so far separate the interests of man and wife as to loosen the bonds of the marriage con- tract, and to offer, as it were, an inducement to sever its ties. Of course if you give the man and wife separate and independent inter- ests, that community of thought and ^action which are so desirable in that relation, is to some extent impaired. As I said before, I am not a non-progress- ive in this matter, but am in favor of going ahead,— of relieving woman from some of m MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Wednesday, July 29. the old feudal restraints, and recognizing her in law as being a person having rights of her own, and not as being entirely absorbed in the man who is joined by law to her as hus- band. I have had handed to me an amendment which I will read and offer as a substitute for the substitute : "All property both real and personal of the wife, owned or claimed by marriage and that ac- quired afterwards by gift, devise or descent, shall be her separate property; and laws shall be passed more clearly defining the rights of the wife, in delation as well to her separate property as that held in common with her husband. Laws shall also be passed providing for the registration of the wife's separate property." This substitute is a transcript of the pro- Vision in the Constitution of California. I ' wish to take the sense of the Convention lipon it. The question was taken on the substitute to the substitute, and it was agreed to. The question then recurred on the substi- tute as amended. Mr. WILSON. I am opposed to this whole matter — the original and the substitute. The original goes to the fullest extent I think it possible to go, and both are legisla- tion, rather than that which should be incor- porated into a Constitution. Both proceed upon the ground that there is danger of the Legislature not only disregarding the rights of married women, but of repealing laws now in force in reference to them. Are not mar- ried women sufficiently protected now ? Can- not they hold their separate property now in the way spoken of in this amendment? •Certainly it is so. Now do we wish here, by innuendo or otherwise, to say that the Minne- sota Legislature is likely to disregard the rights of maiTied women ? Is it necessary to insert into the Constitution special legislation upon this head more than upon any other ? I think not. We are inclined to go too far upon this subject. We ought not to legislate in our Constitution upon any subject, and certainly not upon this. This is a subject upon which the Legislature itself is inclined to go full far enough. I will go as far as he who goes farthest in guaranteeing to woman ■all the rights she should havc^ But I do protest against putting a woman upon an xtquaUty with man in a business point of view. These out-door transactions are not her busi- ness. If she has any property before mar- riage, or if she acquires any after marriage, I am willing that she should hold it in such a mamier that her husband cannot deprive her of it without her own volunttiry consent ; but I do not wish to say here, by implication or otherwise, that a woman is fitted, or ought to be fitted, for doing business generally. As soon as you place woman in that sphere you deprive her of all true womanhood. Her next step would be to the ballot box. If we go to this extent we may be justly called "women's 'rights men." I protest against saying directly or indirectly, that a Minnesota Legislature needs to be bound to do justice to women as such. They need no such obli- gations. Our laws are ample, and yet this says that other laws shall be passed. Why this sen&itiveness ? There are some points upon which men become sensitive, and which they consider the " all in all " of legislation. The Legislatures which have recently enacted laws upon this subject, have come up to all that women want. I teU you it is not the women that call for such provisions as this, but the men, and not a majority of them either. I hope the Convention wiU place a quietus upon this matter, and allow it to be carried no further. Mr. NORTH. It is a little amusing to sec how people are terrified for fear there may be a little item of fanaticism worked into the Constitution we are framing. It is amusing to see them frightened when they are so far from danger, and to see them work themselves up to a fever heat for fear the world is going to make some great revolution, and turn things topsy-turvy, which have stood upright for so many years, and that our opponents will call us fanatics. I confess I have no such fear. I believe tliat tliis age is wiser than the preceding one. I believe that the people of our day know more than people did in the dark ages, and feudal times. I believe they are capable of making wiser laws and institutions than were made then, and when they advance upon sound, correct, and philo- sophical principles, I tliink it is nonsense to be frightened for fear we shall make some hnprovemcnt, and |for fear tlie old fogies of the present day will call it fanaticism. A provision of this kind is found in the MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Wedsesdat, July 29. 171 Constihition of California, and it has been incorporated into the laws of several other States. New York long since came up to tliat standard ; and other States have been progressing towards it from year to year. This idea that we are going to abolish all that is good and old, and substitute something in its place, is simply ridiculous. I want to know if married women ought not to have some rights ? If they ought to be completely under the control of their husbands, in all respects, and under all circumstances ? If a woman before marriage has in her own right a large estate, is it just and reasonable or philosophical, that her husband, though he be an imbruted, degraded being, should take the entire control of it ; or is it right that i she should have the control of what was ! her own, and forever should be her own ? If he has property, no matter how much more capable she might be to manage it, gentle- men would not advocate her control of it because she was much the more capable. Not at all, for it was his right. Now if a woman has property in her own right, why should she not be permitted to control, enjoy and protect it for her children ? Or shall we insist, for fear of being called fanatical upon this subject, that the husband should be per^ mitted under all circumstances, to use and squander that property? It seems to me that some safeguard should be thrown around the family circle ; that children and women have rights which ought to be protected, and that our Constitution should afford that pro- tection, in the same way that wise and experienced heads have thrown protection around that class in other States. With the history of the past upon this subject, and the example of other States before us, for us to wake up and begin to cry " fanaticism " for doing things which were deemed prudent and "Rise twenty years ago by the very best men of this country, is a little amusing indeed. Mr. WILSON. I am sorry that he, who above all others seeks the insertion of this clause, should not represent it to the full ex- tent to which it goes. But he does not. Who here says a word against permitting a woman to hold property in her own name ? Do I ? Does any one ? And is that the full extent to which the section goes ? Not at all. It goes far beyond that in its eflfects. I did not say that I was opposed to this because it was new. Nor do I wish to adopt the old com- mon law rule that a married woman shall not hold property in her own name and right. That is not my position. I am willing that she should hold all her own property in her own name and right, and that she shall not be deprived of it, unless by her voluntary act. Such a provision now stands upon our statute book, and there is no probability of its being repealed. Now when should we guard our Legislature and put checks upon it ? In my opinion, when that Legislature is likely to be turned aside from the path of duty, by some influence which can be brought to bear upon them. For instance, suppose we have corporations in our Territory of im- mense wealth. They may make an attack upon the integrity of the Legislature and in- duce them to make laws more favorable to such corporations than they should be. Then guard well your Legislature. But when we come to a matter of cool legislation where no money influence is brought to bear, where no local influence have any weight, why will not our Le^slature be likely to pass laws as fa- vorable to the rights of women, and the rights of humanity, as they ought to have ? Why not ? Is there to be any pecuniary influence brought to bear upon them to prevent them jfrom doing right in the premises ? I think not. Therefore we have no right to surround them with any provision of this sort which will prevent them from legislating as they think proper. A Constitutional enactment is something which will be permanent, while a l^slative enactment may be changed when it is seen that it can be made better. Now if there is no danger of any wrong influences being brought to bear upon the Legislature, why tie their hands by such a provision as this ? They come here yearly, instructed by by the people, and it is not probable that they will know the wishes of the people for the fu- ture, better than we can ? Our laws, upon this subject, are now right, and they go as far as women generally wish them to go, so far as I know. There may be a few exceptions, and I say now that those women who are the exceptions are not those whom their sex will take for their type. They are women who are pointed out and shunned. I care not for the &ct that there is such ai 172 MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Wednesday, Jult 29. provision in the Constitution of the State of CaUfomia. Let me tell you that California was a State that needed such a provision, while Minnesota does not need it. California is an exception to almost all rules. They had no such laws upon their statute book as we have. Men and women went there together and men, upright and honest at home, became there dissipated, reckless, gamblers and all such things. Theirs was a sort of transition state. They perhaps needed such a provision. We, on the contrary, are a sober, temperate, and honest people usually. Our legislation upon this subject has always been liberal. Why then throw a check aroimd them and compel them to pass laws upon a subject upon which there are ample laws already ? If the gentleman insists upon his amendment let him first show that our laws are not amply liberal upon the subject, or that there is dan- ger that the Legislature will repeal those laws ; and further that his amendment only asks that married women may hold property in their own right. Mr. PERKINS. According to the princi- ples of the common law there are certain dis- abilities imposed upon married women in re- lation to the holding and disposing of property, and the making of contracts. Those disabili- ties have been sanctioned for centuries and have been approved by a vast amount of learning. And now gentlemen propose to brush away all the experience and learning of centuries past. They go further, and say that this new rule is not to be introduced as an experiment, to see whether it will work well, notwithstanding it is in opposition to the lore of centuries. The old rule is to be swept away perpetually. We are to revolutionize the whole law on that subject at once. We are to incorporate this new principle into our Constitution and recognize it as one of the fun- damental principles which underlie the Consti- tution. Because we hesitate to go to that length at once, before the experiment has been fully tested, before it has been ascertained whether that is the best principle or not, gentlemen are inclined to denounce us as old fogies. It does not seem to me that the charge is just, or that a revolution so radical ought to take place at once, or that we ought to take the responsibility of putting such a clause in our Constitution until the principle has been more thoroughly tested than it has been. To say the least, we should leave it for the present with the Legislature. If the people demand that further-protection shall be thrown around married women, the Legislature vrill comply with that requisition. With them then I would leave the matter entirely. It was one of the principles of the conmion law that there should be a perfect union between man and wife, and in order to establish that union, these disabilities were imposed upon the wife. Now it seems to me, as suggested by a gen- tleman upon the other side, that to incorpo- rate this provision into our Constitution and declare it to be a fundamental principle, would be to loosen the bonds of the married re- lation. I hope the Convention will not see fit to go the length which some gentlemen desire. Mr. NORTH. I do not want to spend much time in discussing this question, but it is an important one, and it becomes us to look at it calmly and rationally. If the gen- tleman's argument is sound, that it is well enough to leave this matter with the Legisla- ture, and confide in their judgment for right legislation, I ask why it is not equally sound and rational to leave qther points, upon which we are now framing a Constitution, to the ac- tion of the Legislature also ? Are our rights as men, so much more imperiled than those of women ; are we so much more weak and defenseless, that we need Constitutional pro- tection for ourselves, while they need none ? If that is not the reason, what is the reason that married women shall not have constitu- tional protection to their rights, as well as men in theirs ? For myself I confess I am so obtuse that I cannot see why men should have such protection and women have nothing of the sort. I have always been accustomed to think that law was peculiarly adapted to the protection of the weak. The strong, it is remarked, need no protection. They can take care of themselves, but the weak and de- fenseless need the strongest protection and guarantee of law. Mr. KING (interrupting) I rise to a point of order. Rule seventh of this Convention says that no memb«r shall speak more than twice on the same question, nor more than fifteen minutes at any one time without leave of the Convention, nor more tlian once until MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Wedxesdat, Jclt 29. 173 every member who chooses to speak shall have spoken. The gentleman has spoken twice before on this subject, and he is out of order, imlcss the Convention grant leave to proceed. Cries of " leave" " leave." Mr. NORTH proceeded. I wish now to refer to, and read the clause of the California Constitution, to ascertain whether there is anything so very ultra in the sentiments em- bodied there. It is as follows : " AU property both real and personal of the wife, owned or claimed by marriage, and that ac- quired afterward bj gift, devise, or descent, shall be her separate property; and laws shall be passed more clearly defining the rights of the wife, in re- lation as well to her separate property, as to that held in common with her husband. Laws shall also be passed providing for the registration of the wife's separate property." It happens that when the laws now upon our statute book on this subject, were passed by our Territorial Legislature, there were many who were just as much opposed to legislating upon the rights of married women, and as fearful of the fanatical doctrine of guarding the rights of married women at all, as some gentlemen of this Convention are to-day. The idea of woman's rights were sneered at in the same manner, and by the same kind of slurs and innuendos that are sometimes ex- hibited here. But there was good sense enough in that Legislature to pass good and wholesome laws for woman's protection. It was my privilege to advocate them, as I ad- vocate now, the same kind of legislation. I had the opportunity of urging that provision then, and I met with the same kind of oppo- sition that now meets me here. The amend- ment I offered is not of itself legislation, but it imposes upon the Legislature the duty of legislating upon the subject, and more speci- fically defining and guarding the rights there- in emmciated. This, seems to me to be one of the most wise, just, and wholesome provisions we can incorporate into our Constitution, and one which should be made as prominent in the fundamental law as any other. As a man I should be ashamed to ask a constitutional pro- tection of my rights, and then turn around and say that women shall be turned away to to trust to haphazard legislation for her pro- tection. Mr. McCLURE. I understand the ques- tion now to be upon the adoption of the sub- stitute as amended. I hope the good sense of the Convention vrill prevent it from being adopted. It never moves me a particle to hear certain gentlemen from certain quarters talk about oldfogyism. It is a thing which I have heard a long time and have got used to it. We ought to act here as sensible men, and undoubtedly we all suppose we are do- ing so, and yet, we may do things which, when published to the world, may show that we are acting a little foolishly. My Mend from Rice Coimty (Mr. North) takes the position that aU the opponents to his amendment are opposed to married wo- men holding property at aU. The gentieman must iindoubtedly know, if he considers for a moment, that that is not the position taken by the gentieman fi-om Winona, nor is it the position taken by myself. I am in favor of married women having every right that a wise legislation may deem it proper to give them. But I am not in favor of placing this provis- ion into the Constitution, nor would I be in favor of engrafting it into a law, were I a legislator, nor do I think the gentieman him- self would, if he looks at the language care- fully. How does it read? "AU property, " both real and personal, of a wife, owjied or " claimed by marriage, came here to make laws for the people ; yut to prepare a system by which they may make laws them- selves through the Legislature. Mr. PERKINS. My opinion is that we shall be in the Union as a State, and imder a Constitution framed in the other end of the Capitol, before we get our Constitution framed, unless we stop this interminable debate. I I see no prospect of this Convention adhering to fundamental (principles in framing this Constitution. I hope we shall go on and dispose of this matter without finrther delay. The PRESIDENT. If the Chair puts the question to the Convention in this way — "Shall the report of the committee on the " Bill of Rights be engrossed for a third " reading?" — it will put it out of the power of this Convention to further amend it If the question is put to recommit it to the standing committee, then, when they report it back to the Convention, it will still be sub- ject to amendment. Mr. NORTH. I would inquire what op- portunity the committee on Arrangement and Phraseology will have to act upon this sub- ject? When will it be their province to attend to that duty ? The PRESIDENT. After the various reports have been adopted in detail, they are to be sent to the committee on Arrang'^nient and Phraseology, and that committee will have no right to make any alterations, except such as are actually necessary to carry out the intention of the sections. Mr. NORTH. If there were two similar articles in different reports, would they have the right to strike out one ; and would they have the right to take a provision fix)m one report and put it into another ? The PRESIDENT. The Chair thinks they would have the right, with the final concur- rence of the Convention. Mr. NORTH. I am in favor of having the report recommitted, and I would like the committee to have the right to suggest cer- tain changes in in it, if they see fit to do so, and when it comes back to us, I would like to see prompt action upon it I would suggest, also, that we should not talk quite as much as we have done ; that we should keep up more thinking, and check our propensity to amend. I recolle action of the Legislature, that its proper place is in the report upon the L<^.?lative Depart- ment. I therefore object to its being stricken out. Mr. MORGAN. I was one of the com- mittee that made the report upon the Execu- tive Department, and upon consideration I think this section belongs to the Lc^lative Department of the Goveiimient, that the ac- tion of the government in this respect is legis- lative action and not executive ; and hence that is now in its proper place. If we re- tain it here, tte committee on arrangement will strike it out from the other bUl. Besides, the last clause of this section is not in the re- port on the other department. Mr. FOLSOM. Every bill and resolution must originate in the legislative body, and it seems to me that everything which relates to the perfection of the^se bills and resolutiens into laws, properly belong to- the Legislative Department. Mr. STANNARD. I consider the clause with respect to a two-third vote, is but a qual- ification of the veto power, which belongs to the Executive. Mr. WILSON. There is one reason why I want it stricken out here, and why I prefer that in the report on the Executive. It says here " if two-thirds of the members elected " agree to pass the bill- it shall be sent, &c." Now I do not want to make that provision so stringent as to require two-thirds of the members elected. , Mr. NORTH. I think that upon reflection the gentleman from Chisago Covmty (Mr. Stannabd) will come to the conclusion that this provides more for legislation, than for the veto power. It presents the manner in which a bill is to become a law when an objection Ls made to it by the Governor. Therefore I tlunk it belong here. As to the objection raised by the gentleman from "Winona, (Mr. WiLSOs) for myself I think it is none too stringent. The committee refused to strike out the section. Mr. HUDSON. I move to strike out the word " three" in the thirteenth line and in- sert the word " ten." Mr. ^ViDRICH. I hope that amendment will not prevail. That matter was discussed in the committee and they come to the con- clusion that three days was giving sufficient time. Mr. STANNARD. Pretty much all the business of legislation is done within the last ten days, and the Governor might pocket every bill passed, if you adopt this amend- ment. The amendment was not agreed to. ilr. PECHAM. I move to strike out the word " elected" in the sixth line and insert the word " present." The amendment was agreed to. " Sec. 25. Every statute shall be a public law unless otherwise declared in the statute itself." Mr. COGGSWELL. I would hke to hear some member of the Convention explain the meaning of that section. Mr. NORTH. Private bills are not always called public laws and sometimes there are legislative provisions which require public laws to be published before they take eifect. Judges are also required to take notice of public laws, but not private statutes, unless" they are pleaded. Mr. COGGSWELL. That it was found in other Constitutions, and therefore should be placed in here, is the best reason I have yet heard. Now I have read Greenleaf, Starkey, and other old authors, as well as the gentle- man from Rice County, and I say that the only eflFect of this section will be to alter the old common law rule in regard to certain matters connected with evidence. Now if we are going to avoid everything which looks like legislation, as many gentlemen strenu- ously contend we shall, let us not alter the principles of common law in that respect. I am in favor of striking out the section. Mr. CLEGHORN (interrupting). I riseta a point of order. There Ls no question be- fore the House. Mr. NORTH. I suggest if the gwitleman wants it stricken out, he make a motion to that effect, and let us talk to something. Mr. COGGSWELL. I do not make tlie motion. Mr. NORTH. Then I object to the gentle- man's proceeding. Mr. COGGSWELL. If it is in other Con- stitutions, I want it in ours. (Laughter). " Sec. 27. Each member of the Legislature shall receive for his services three dollars for each day's attendance during the session, and ten cents for ev£ry mile he shall travel in going to and re- 204 MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Thuesday, Jitly 30. turning from the place of the meeting of the Le- gislature on the most usual route." Mr. COG GS WELL. I move to amend by striking out "three" and inserting " four." That is small pay enough if you have any- thing like decent men for Legislators. The amendment was not agreed to. Mr. COLBURN. I move to strike out all after the word " services" and insert in lieu thereof the words " and travel such compen- " sation as shall be provided by law," so that the section shall read — "Each member of the Legislature shall receive for his services and travel such compensation as shall be provided by law." The amendment was agreed to. " Sec. 31. The Legislature shall not establish a State Paper. Every newspaper in the State which shall publish the general laws of a session within forty days of their passage shall be entitled to receive a sura not exceeding fifteen dollars therefor." Mr. RUSSELL. I move to strike out that section and insert the following substitute : "The Legislature shall not establish a State pa- per. Any two papers having the largest circula- tion within the county where printed, which shall publish the general laws of the legislative session within three months after their passage, shall be entitled to receive therefor the sum of one dollar for each thousand ems." Mr. SECOMBE. I hope the amendment will not be adopted, and that this section will be stricken out entirely. I do not see the necessity of binding up the Legislature in this way. This does not provide any way whereby the laws can be published, unless by a voluntary publication on the part of the different papers of the State. Suppose no paper does publish them, then the Legisla- ture are prohibited from procuring their pub- lication. I would leave it for the Legislature to determine the matter for themselves. The amendment was not agreed to. Mr. SECOMBE. I move that the section be stricken out. The motion was agreed to. "Sec. 82. The Legislature may submit to the people any Act for their ratification or rejection, and such act so submitted shall, if approved by a majority of the legal voters at the appointed elec- tion, become a law." Mr. STANNARD. I move to strike out l\iat section. Mr. HUDSON. I hope that motion will not prevail. It is frequently desirable to sub- mit certain questions to the people, and the will of the people should be the law. Mr. SECOMBE. I hope the section will not be stricken out. It has been decided re- peatedly that where there is no such pro- vision, it is unconstitutional to submit laws to the people. It has been decided the other way too, I believe. To make the matter sure, I am in favor of allowing the section to stand as it is. Mr. HUDSON. In Michigan, four judges of the Supreme Court held that it was Con- stitutional, and four judges held that it was not. Mr. COLBURN. The question has been mooted in several of the States. In Massa- chusetts a long discussion was had upon the same question, and to remove all doubt I hope the section will be retained. Mr. MURPHY. I hope the section will be retained. We have had the matter tried in this TeiTitory. The Maine liquor law, as it is called, was submitted to the people, and the judges decided that such a submission was unconstitutional. Mr. COLBURN. The subject was dis- cussed in the Massachusetts Legislature, and it was contended by some that the people had no power to pass a law submitted to their ac- tion, in the absence of any provision in the Constitution, authorizing such submission. Mr. KING. I move to amend the section by striking out the words " legal votes," and inserting in lieu thereof, the words " voters voting " The word " legal voters " might be construed to mean the voters in the Territory, and if a majority did not vote, it would not become a law. Mr. PERKINS. There can be no doubt but that this section is declaratory of a doubt- fUl legal question. I know there was consid- erable trouble over the matter in Vermont, but it was there finally decided that a ques- tion might be submitted to the people. Mr. NORTH. This question has arisen upon a great many different subjects. There are many subjects which Legislatures gene- rally refer to the decision of the people. It is not uncommon that banking laws arc sub- mitted to the people. Such is the case in Wisconsin. Schoollaws arc also frequently MINNESOTACOXVEXTION DEBATES— Thubsdat, July SO. 205 submitted. It is also quite common for Le- gislatures to delegate certain powers to coun- ties, and they are allowed to vote upon the location of the coimty seat. Boards of Su- pervisors are also frequently clothed with certain powers, and they, in turn, submit the question to the people for their action. Now if there is to be a question about the Consti- tutionality of that kind of legislation, which may cause litigation for years, and great expense and inconvenience, it would be well to settle it here. Mr. FOLSOM. I do not profess to under- stand the question of the Constitutionality or unconstitutionaUty of this matter, but it does seem to me that to refer a question to the people is Democratic and Republican. Now I am not in favor of calling the people out to vote upon a question, when it will do no good, and only result in squandering their time and money. I was once called out to vote upon a question submitted to the people, and the judges afterwards decided that the people of the Territory, as a people, had no right to pass a law : that the Legislature were the only law making power. If, in the future legislation of our State, it is thought best to submit a measure to the people for their approval, I hold that we should have a clause in our Constitution, making such a submission valid. Mr. STAXXARD. I have taken a great deal of interest in reading the reports, not only of Vermont and Massachusetts, but of our own Territory, on this question. In those reports, the principles of our govern- ment were pretty thoroughly discussed. TTe are not so pure a Democracy as many per- sons imagine. Our government is a medium between aristocracy and democracy. The people are supposed to choose the best men to make laws for them, and in that respect our government is more of an aristocracy than a democracy. It has been decided that the Executive and the Legislature are the only law making powers. Mr. NORTH. That is the veiy reason why we need such a provision as this. It very frequently happens that the Legislature is called upon to legislate upon important matters, in reference to which they were not elected. They, in their discretion, refer the matter to the people and ask them to decide upon it. The people decide it, and then some judge says to the people : " you have no busi- ness to pass upon such a matter, for it is un- constitutional." Now it seems to me that such is not the treatment which the people should receive, and there should be some pro- vision to guard against its recurrence. The amendment was not agreed to. The question recurring on the motion to strike out the section, it was put and decided in the negative. "Sec. 35. The Legislature shall determine what persons shall constitute the Militia of the State, and mar provide for organizing and disci- plining the same in such manner as shall be pre- scribed bj law." Mr. COLBURN. I move to strike out that section. Mr. ALDRICH. I hope the motion will prevail, as that matter properly belongs to the committee upon the Militia. Mr. NORTH. I am surprised to hear such a motion as that come from a member of the committee on the Militia. Mr. COLBLTIN. The committee on the Militia propose to introduce a better provision than that. Mr. NORTH. I should like to see what the provision is, before tiiis section is stricken out. The motion to strike out was agreed to. ^ " Sec. 36. The Legislature may contract debts to meet casual deficits or failures in the revenue, but such debts direct or contingent, singly or in the aggregate, shall not at any time exceed five hundred thousand dollars ; andt he moneys arising from loans creating such debts shall be applied to the purposes for which they were obtained, or to pay such debts ; Provided, that the State may con- tract debts to repel invasion, suppress insurrection, or if hostilities are threatened, provide for the public defense." Mr. COGGSWELL. I move to strike out that section for the reason, that the subject matter belongs to the committee upon Pi- nance and Public Debt. Mr. ROBBINS. Also to the committee upon Internal Improvements. The motion was not agreed to. Mr. THOMPSON. I beUeve the bill has now been read through. I desire to offer an amendment to section two, to strike out the words " sixty-four," and insert " fifty," so as to provide that the House of Representatives shall consist of not less than fifty members, nor more than one hundred. 206 MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Tiilrsday, July 30. The amendment was not aiiveed to. Ml". COLBURN. I move to amend section two, by inserting " and twenty-five," after the word " hundred," so as to provide that the House shall not consist of more than one hundred and twenty-five members. I do not ofFer^this because I desire so large a House at present, but the time may come before the people will want to alter this Constitution, when they will actually demand a larger num- ber of Representatives. This number is not materially larger, and I can see no objection to adding it, because if the people do not demand an increase of members, the Legisla- ture will not provide for it. Mr. NORTH. The great State of New York has had but one hundred and twenty- eight members in their House of Represen- tatives, although she has a population of over two millions, and I think we can get along with a hundred. Mr. COLBURN. But the little State of Massachusetts has a House of over three hundred members. Mr. MORGAN. There are not as many counties in the State of New York, as there are in this Territory now. There will be a great many counties in this State with a sparse population, and I think it will be found V necessary, in order to have a fair representa- tion to have a large popular branch. I am decidedly in favor of increasing the number to one hundred and twenty -five. If the State does not wish so large a popular branch, the Legislature will not provide for it. Mr. ALDRICH. In the State of Illinois it is provided that the Senate shall consist of twenty-five, and the House of Representatives of seventy-five members until the population shall amount to one million, and that the pop- ular V)ranch shall not then exceed one hun- dred members. That State has one hundred counties. I am in favor of as small a num- ber as can be got along with. I think it will not be many years before a larger number will be required than is provided for in the report. The amendment was not agreed to. Mr. CLEGIIORN. I offer the following as an additional section : "Sbc. — . Divorces shall not be granted by the Legislature." Mr. WILSON. I hope that will be adop- ted. It certainly is a good provision. Mr. COLBURN. I move to amend by adding thereto the words, " in this State." Mr. CLEGIIORN. I accept that as a mod- ification of my amendment. Mr. BILLINGS. I am in favor of the amendment. It seems to me that the propri- ety of the thing will suggest itself to every one who thinks candidly upon the subject. It has been the habit of the Legislature to devote almost all its time to cases of divorce, and all who are able to come here and log- roll, can get divorces. Mr.. MURPHY. I hope the section will bo- adopted. A case occurred in this Territory in which the Legislature one winter granted a bill of divorce ; the next summer the parties were married again, and the next winter they came to the Legislature and got another divorce. Our Legislatures have been con- stantly troubled with these matters. We have now a very liberal law upon this subject^ and I hope the matter will be taken out of the hands of the Legislature. The section was adopted. Mr. COGGSWELL. I move to add to, section four these words : " Provided that nothing in this section shall be- so construed as to interfere with the manner of electing Representatives to the first Legislature to be convened under this Constitution." Mr.BALCOMBE. I cannot see the pro- priety of inserting anj^thing of that kind into< the body of the Constitution. When we come to frame the schedule all matters per- taining to the transition state will be provided for. Mr. BILLINGS. I believe the amend- ment is not properly before the committee, as it has not been reduced to writing. I move to amend the same section by striking out the word, " October," and inserting "November," so as to provide that the election of mem beas of the House of Representatives shall ho on the Tuesday succeeding the first .Momluy of November instead of October. Mr. ALDRICH. I hope the amendment will ivot prevail. If we a\ cic situated as some Territories are, I should bo in favor of the change. But we have a large population who annually go into the woods a logging. If our election is put off until November, we de- prive them of the privilege of voting. Mr. BILLINGS. And we have many in MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Thursday, Jcly 30. 20T the southern part of the Territory who are threshing buckwheat about that time. Mr. ALDRICH. These men go into the woods three hundred miles away, and it is not so convenient quite for them to get to the polls, as it is for the gentleman's constituents who are threshing buckwheat. Mr. NORTH. That subject was considered in the committee, and one member of the committee said that in his section of the Ter- ritory there are something like two thousand men who go into the woods logging early in the fell, beyond the reach of voting precincts. They would be deprived of the privilege of voting if this amendment should prevail. That is a matter of some importance, and an interest we ought to consider. On that account it was, that the statutes of our Terri- tory have heretofore fixed the time in Octo- ber, and it was this reason which induced the committee to determine upon that time. Mr. MURPHY. We have m St. Anthony fi-om one hundred and fifty to two hundred persons who go to the pineries every fall, all of whom are Republicans. I have known them to delay their departure a week, or two weeks, in order to deposit their votes. But rf the time of election is put off until Novem- ber, we shall lose from one to three hundred votes. We should lose in Minneapolis to about the same extent. It would be more of an injury to St. Antliony and St. Croix than to any other part of the Territory. Mr. BILLINGS. My remark in reference to threshing buckwheat was but a jest to off'set a previous remai'k made by another gentleman. If there is an}- force in the argu- ment that we shall poll less votes, I do not know that it necessarily follows that the Re- publicans in particular wiU lose by it, for I presume that the class of persons who go into woods are both Democrats and Republi- cans, Mr. NORTH. Is it right to deprive two or three thousand voters of their votes ? Mr. BILLINGS. I say no, but the same argument which applies to this case would apply to the fixing of any other special time. To fix the day for October would deprive many others and a different class of men, of their votes, because navigation is not then closed. You can fix no day but what some must be necessarily absent from the polls. October is just the time of the year when our merchants, in the southern part of the Terri- tory, go east to purchase goods. A consider- ation in favor of November, is, that that is the time for the Presidential election, and we should get a larger vote for our State ticket, when that election comes at the same time \rith the Presidential election. Men get warmed up at that time, and if they are good Republicans,* they will not go into the woods until after that time. Mr. SECOMBE. There is a very large class in this Territory who are engaged annu- ally in lumbering, and the lumbering interest is a very important one. It not only benefits those immediately engaged in it, but the ben- efits of that trade extend over the whole Ter- ritory, and the whole length and breadth of the land ; and in the prosecution of that busi- ness it is absolutely necessary that about the time tliis election is held, that they should go hundreds of miles away. I hope the amend- ment wiU not prevail. Gentlemen have used the term " republi- can." I do not consider that this Convention is making provisions for Republicans, but for the voters of the Territory, no matter which way they vote. The amendment was not agreed to. Mr. THOMPSON. I move that the com- mittee rise and report the report back to the Convention with a recommendation that the amendments of the commtttee be concur- red in. The motion was agreed to. The committee accordingly rose and re- ported the report with the recommendation that the amendments of the committee be concurred in. Mr. KING (at five o'clock and thirty min- utes) moved that the Convention adjourn. The motion was lost. Mr. CLEGHORN. I move that the report be laid on the table. The motion was not agreed to. Mr. MURPHY. I move that the Conven- tion adjourn. The motion was not agreed to. Mr. BATES. I move that the Convention now proceed to act upon the amendments recommended by the committee of the Whole. The motion was agreed to. 208 MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Thuesdat, July 80. The several amendments were then taken up and disposed of as follows : ''First Amendment. — Strike out section twenty- two." The amendment was concurred in. ''Second Aine7idment. — Section twenty-three, line six, strike out 'elected,' and insert 'present,' and insert the word 'present' after the word ' members ' in the ninth line." The amendment was conciured in. Third Amendment — Section twenty-seven after the word 'services,' insert 'and travel such compensation as shall be provided by law,' and strike out the balance of the section." The amendment was concurred in. "Fourth Ameiidm^it. — Strike out section thir- ty-one." Mr. FOLSOM. I hope that amendment will not be concurred in. I am in faVor of the poor people of the State receiving the laws of the land through the newspapers. There is hardly a head of a family in the State but what lakes a weekly paper. If the laws are printed in the weekly papers, a knowledge of our laws will be spread throughout the whole country. If you print them in a calf bound volume, the poor people will not be able to buy them. Let the German, the Sweedc, the Norwegian and all have the privilege of read- ing these laws, in a cheap form. That is the easiest and most correct mode of dififusing this knowledge, Mr. STANNARD. The result under this section would be that no paper would publish the laws, as they could not afford to do it for the compensation proposed. The recommendation of the committee of the Wbole was concurred in, and the section was stricken out. "Fifth Am,endment. — Strike out section thirty- five, relating to the militia." The amendment was concurred in. " Sixth Amendm,ent. — Add the following addi- tional section : " Sec. — . Divorces shall not be granted by the Legislature in this State." The amendment was concurred in. Mr. STANNARD. I move to amend the additional section which has just been adopted by adding thereto the words, " except in cases •' not cognizable by the Courts." Mr. SECOMBE. I hope the amendment will not prevail. I cannot conceive of a case which cannot come before the Courts. The Legislature, of course, will pass such laws as they see fit upon the subject. They will pro- vide in what cases divorces may be granted, and in what Courts they may be granted. Mr. STANNARD. The only divorce biU which passed the Legislature last winter was a case, which, from its peculiar circumstances, could not have been cognizable by the Courts. Mr. SECOMBE. There were no Courts at that time, and the Legislature granted the di- vorce, as there would otherwise have been unreasonable delay under the circumstances. The amendment was not agreed to. Mr. CLEGHORN. I move the foUowing as an additional section : " Sec. — . No new bill shall be introduced into either House during the last three days of the session, without the unanimous jconsent of the House in which it originated." The amendment was not agreed to. Mr. BILLINGS. I move to strike out of section four the words " on the Tuesday suc- " ceeding the first Monday of October by the " qualified electors of the several districts." My object in moving the amendment is to leave the matter to the Legislature hereafter, to fix the time of election. Mr. COLBURN. That will obviate the objections which have been made to this sec- tion, and will satisfy all, so far as the Consti- tution is concerned. I hope the amendment will not prevaiL Ever since I have been in the Territory, the day of election has been that which is speci- fied in this section. Mr. FOSTER. There must be a difference of opinion on this matter. The idea, I think, is a good one, to leave it with the Legislature to fix the day. That will avoid any conflict of opinion on that point when we get before the people witli the Constitution. Another thing. If we fix the day at all, we should have it in a separate article, and submit the question to the people. The amendment was not agi'ccd to. Mr. STANNARD. I offer the following section : Sec. — A majority of all the members elected shall constitute a quorm in either branch of the Legislature." Mr. IIUDSON. That provision is already contained in the eighth section. MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Fbidat, July 31. 203 Mr. STAN^NARD. That section says a majority of each House, and that is the rea- son why I want my amendment adopted. I want a quorxim to consist of a majority of all the members elected, and not a majority of those who happen to be present I do not want a few members to come in and organ- ize the House in the absence of all the rest. I cannot vote for a Constitution unless a pro- vision similar to mine is in it. I insist that a majority of the members elected to any de- Hberative body should constitute a quomm. It is a question which ought not to be left open to the opinion of this man or that, but should be fixed and certain. Mr. MORGAN. I conceive that the word " majority" means a majority of the mem- bers sworn in. The section says, a majority of each House, not a majority of those pres- ent. There can be no other meaning at- tached to it, for we firequently find ourselves without a quorum, which is, less than a ma- o rity of the members sworn in. Mr. STAN'NAED. My amendment is de- signed to take the place of section twenty- two. It is nothing but just and fair, I would ask for nothing more. I remember one in- stance last winter in which the Speaker of the House — a very able parliamentarian too — decided that nineteen was a majority of thirty-nine members. "NVhy? Because one member was not here and another member had been excused. , A precedent for such a decision as that carmot be fotmd in any work upon parliamentary law in the United States or En^and. Mr. SECOMBE. I hope the amendment will not prevail. This amendment if adopted, will allow a minority, by remaining out of either House, and refusing to be sworn in, to compel the attendence, and constantly per- haps, of aU the other members — a case simi- lar to what we saw at the commencemoat of this Convention. The amendment was not agreed to. Mr. THOMPSON. I move that the rule be so far suspended as to allow the report to be referred to the committee on Arrangment and Phraseology. Mr. WILSON. I hope that will not b« done. We have looked over this report very hastily and only this afternoon. It will not 27 delay business at all if we let it lie over untfl to-morrow. Mr. NORTH. I think the report is in much better shape than if we had been spend- ing three days upon it. Mr. COLBURN. I hope the motion will prevail, for I do not want any more discussion on this report The motion was agreed to, and the report was referred to the committee on Arrange- ment and Phraseology. Then on motion of Mr. RUSSELL (at six o'clock) the Convention adjourned. SEVEN-TEENTTH DAY. Fridat, July 31st, 1857. The Convention met at nine o'clock, a. '». The journal of yesterday was read and approved. THE ST. AXTHOKY DELEGATES. Mr. SECOMBE. I rise, Mr. President, to a question of privilege. I hold in my hand a copy of the St. Paul Weekly Pioneer rT, to go back a little and examine one of the provisions of the Enabling Act, which reads as follows, in section three: " Which election slmll be held and conducted, and the returns made, in all respects in conformity with the laws of said Territory regulatingtbe elec- tion of representatives." It is here specially pointed out by Congress, that the election of those Delegates, and the returns of the elections, are to conform in eveiy respect to the provisions of the laws of this Territory regulating the election of Rep- resentatives. I propose now to examine those laws ; and the first point to which I call the attention of the Convention, is to the provis- ion regulating the action of voters in casting their votes': section thirteen of page forty- seven of the statutes of Miimesota, which provides as follows : " Every elector shall vote by ballot, and each person oUering to vote shall deliver his ballot to one of the judges of election in presence of the Board. The ballots shall be a paper ticket which shall contain, written or printed, or partly written or partly printed, the names of the persons for whom the elector intends to vote, and shall desig- nate the oflSce to which each person so named is intended by him to be chosen ; but no ballot shall contain a greater number of names of persons designated to any office than there are persons to be chosen at the election to fill such office. I next read section thirty of the same chap- ter, which prescribes the duties of the Judges of Election : "The ballots and poll lists agreeing or being made to agree, the board shall then proceed to count and ascertain the number of votes cast, and the clerks shall set down in their poll books the names of every person voted for, written at full length, the office for which such person received such votes, and the number he did receive, the number being expressed at full length, &c." Section twenty-three of the same chapter provides : "On the twentieth day after the close of any election, or sooner, if all the returns be received, the Clerk of the Board of County Commissioners, taking to his assistance two Justices of the Peace of the County, shall proceed to open said returns, and to make abstracts of the votes in the following manner, &c. And it shall be the duty of the said Clerk of County Commissioners immediately to make out a certificate of election to each person having the highest number of votes for members of the Legislative Assembly, County and Precinct Ofiicers respectively, and to deliver said certificate to the person entitled to it, on his making applica- tion to the Clerk at his office." I next read section forty-eight, of the same chapter : " In all elections for the choice of any officer.s, unless it is otherwise exprcsslj- provided, the per- son having the highest number of votes for any office shall be deemed to have been elected to that office." MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Fbiday, July SI. 315 "The Clerk of the Board of County Commis- sioners and Register of Deeds, as aforesaid, shall not construe the statutes concerning the opening of the election returns, so as to decide all matters of law and facts themselves; but the Clerk and Register aforesaid, and the two Justices thej- shall call to their assistance, shall constitute a Board, a majority of whom shall decide all matters of dis- agreement ; and the said Board shall disregard technicalities and misspelling or abbreviations of the names of candidates for office, if it can be de- termined from such votes for whom they were in- tended." Section forty-three, of the same chapter, provides : "Xo returns shall be refused by any Clerk of the Board of County Commissioners, for the rea- son that the same may be returned and delivered to him in any other than the manner directed in this chapter ; nor shall he refuse to include" any returns in his estimate of votes for any informal- ity in holding any election or making returns thereof; but all returns shall be received and the votes canvassed by such clerks, and a certificate given to the person or persons who may, by^uch returns, have the greatest number of votes." Now, Mr. President, we have in the first place a provision of law requiring that each voter should designate upon his ballot tlie particular office for which he intended to de- signate the particular person. We have a provision also that no ballot shall contain the names of a greater number of persons for any office than there are to be elected to that office. In the second place we have a provi- sion of statute requiring the Judges of Elec- tion and the Clerks of Election, in the returns which are to be made to the Registers of Deeds of the counties, to designate in wri- ting, in full, the names of each person voted for, arul the office for which he was voted for. In the next place, we find a provision that the canvassing board shall be made up of the Register of Deeds and two Justices of the Peace of the coimty, and that it shall be the duty of that board to pass upon all questions of law and fact which come before them in their canvass ; and we find that it is the duty of the Register of Deeds to issue certificates of election to those persons found h/ this hoard of canvassers to have received the high- est number of votes for any particular office. Now, Mr. President, I propose to examine and ascertain whether or not the four dele- gates in this Convention who represent the third Council District and the Representative District comprising the same, hold seats in this Convention in conformity to law. In the first place then, the delegates from St. An- thony hold their seats in this Convention by virtue of having presented to this Convention certificates of election, issued in due form of law by the proper officer and under the seal of the proper county. I propose, so far as I discuss further points, to take such evidence as I find in the speeches and in the proceed- ings to which I have referred, and in reply to which I am speaking. I fijid in the proceed- ings of the public meeting to which I have alluded the following, being a part of the re- port of a committee on credentials : "Tour committee would further state that tho following certified copy of an abstract of the vote polled in the Third Council District, upon which Messrs. B. B. Meekee, Wm. M. Lashells, C. A. TcTTLE, and C. L. Chase, claim to be duly elected, was referred to the committee for examination, viz : "At an election held at the City Council Room, in the city of St. Anthony, in St. Anthony Pre- cinct, in the county of Hennepin, and Territory of Minnesota, on the first day of June, 1857, the fol- lowing named persons received the number of votes annexed to their respective names, for the following described offices, to wit : "B. B. Meeker received for delegate to the Constitutional Convention, five hundred and twen- ty-four votes. " Samuel Staxchfield received for delegate to the Constitutional Convention, four hundred and ninety-five votes. "Richard Fewek received for delegate to the Constitutional Convention, four hundred and nine- ty-six votes. "William M. Lashells received for delegate to the Constitutional Convention, four hundred and ninety-seven votes. " C. L. Chase received for delegate to the Con- stitutional Convention, five hundred and twen^- one votes. " C. A. TuTTLE received for delegate to the Con- stitutional Convention, five hundred and nine votes. "S. W. PuTXAM received for delegate to the Constitutional Convention, from the Council Dis- trict, four hundred and ninety -one votes. "J. H. MrRPHT received for delegate to the Con- stitutional Convention, from the council district, four hundred and ninety-six votes. " D. A. Secombe received for delegate to the Con- stitutional Convention, from the representative district, four hundred and seventy-two votes. Section forty-nine, of the same chapter, says: " D. M. Hall received for delegate to the Consti- tutional Convention, from the representative di»- 216 MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Friday, July 3J. trict four hundred and eighty-five votes. " L. C. Walker received for delegate to the Con- stitutional Convention, from the representative district, five hundred and three votes. "P. WixELL received for delegate to the Consti- tutional Convention, from the representative dis- trict, five hundred and twelve votes. " WofELL received for delegate to the Constitu- tional Convention, from the representative dis- trict, two votes. " Lashells received for delegate to the Constitu- tional Convention, from the representative district, two votes. " 0. Shasse received for delegate to the Constitu- tional Convention, from the representative district> one vote. "F. FuKBRreceived for delegate to the Constitu- tional Convention from the representative district, one vote. •'JoHX Wensinger received for delegate to the Constitutional Convention one vote. " H. WiNELLS received for delegate to the Consti- tutional Convention, one vote. " Walker received for delegate to the Constitu- tional Convention, one vote. "Some White Man received for delegate to the Constitutional Convention, one vote. " PcTNAM received for delegate to the Constitu- tional Convention, one vote. " Certified by us, James B. Gilbert, Moses W.- Getchell, Stephen Cobb, Judges of election. " Attest : H. B. Taylor, Dax. M. Demmon, Clerks of election. " Office of Register of Dbeds, ) Hennepin County, M. T. \ " I certify that the above written is a full, true and accurate copy of the original, as it appears on file at this office. " GEO, W. CHOWEN, "Dep. Reg. Deeds, Hennepin Co., M. T. "Minneapolis, June 15, 1857.- I next read a certified copy of the abstract of the Canvassing Board : " For Delegates to the Constitutional Convention :\^ "B. B. Meeker received 524 votes. Samuel fc-TANcmiELD received 495 " Richard Fewer received 496 " Wm. Lashalls received 497 " C. A. TuTTLB received 509 " C. L. CuASE received 521 " " For Delegates to Constitutional Convention, from Council District : " J. U. Murphy received 496 votes. B. W. Putnam received 491 " " For Delegates to Constitutional Contention, from Bepresentatine DistHot : " D, A. Sbcombk received 472 votes. D. M. Hall received 485 " L. C. Walker received 503 " P. WiNELL received 512 " " This sheet contains an abstract of the votes returned from the St. Anthony precinct, as being cast for delegates to the Constitutional Conven- tion, at on election there held on the first day of June, 1857. The Board of Canvassers are unani- mously of the opinion that the votes cast for dele- gates to said Convention, without designation of either Council or Representative District, could not legally be counted by them; and they there- fore determine that J. H. Murphy and S. W. Put- nam, arc entitled to certificates of election, as hav- ing received the highest number of votes cast for' delegates to the Constitutional Convention, from the Council District, and that D. A. Secombe, D* M. Hall, L. C. Walker and P. Winell, are en- titled to certificates of election, as having received the highest number of votes for delegates to the said Convention from the Representative District. " [Signed] JOHN C. McCAIN, ) Justices of E. 8. JONES. i Peace. " Attest : C. G. Ames. Clerk Board of Commission- ers. " Hennepin County, M. T., June 10th, 1857." Now, Mr. President, I claim that tlie pro- ceedings in regard to the canvassing, and in regard to the issuing of certificates of election to those members were in all respects in con- formity with the provisions of the law, and that any other course, had it been taken by either of the oiBcers would have been illegal. I claim that there were two classes of dele- gates to be elected, that those classes of del-- gates were to be elected by virtue of two authorities, and that there was a radical dif- ference in the nature of the office to which they were elected, that it was the duty of every voter to designate the particular oflSce for which he intended to designate each man he voted for ; that it was the duty of all the the judges of election to preserve that dis^ tinction ; that it \^as the duty of the can- vassers to preserve the same distinction ; and that had they done in any other way they would have palpably violated the law. Now, I propose, in addition to this, to show that in this particular instance not only was it the law, but that the Democratic party of St. Anthony knew it was the law, and pre- viously to the election, and subsequent to tho election so contended. I read first from tho St. Anthony Express of May 16, 1857, the only " Democratic" paper in the county of Hennepin, and the accredited organ of the party, " Suggestions in view of tho Coming Election." " It being the universally received construction in all parts of the Territory, of the Enabling Act, at least for the purposes of this canvass, that each precinct is entitled to double the number of Dele- gates in the Conveation which it has both of Rep- MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Friday, July 31. 2ir reeentatives and Conncillors in the Legislature, St. Anthony should make her nominations and elections accordingly ; else she might fail of hav- ing her due representation. Certainly such would be the case should she only choose Representa- tive Delegates, while other precincts choose Coun- tillor Delegates in addition, and also secured seats for them. At the same time it should be borne in mind that the Convention, like any other legisla- tive [body], will decide the number, as well as judge of the qualifications of its own members ; and that when assembled it may take it upon itself to construe the Enabling Act, and to suit its own uotion, caprice or convenience, without the re- motest reference to what the people have thought or done in the premises. The Convention, as re- gards its rules of action or its organization, will be entirely irresponsible ; and if it should hold that only Representative Delegates should be admitted to seats, the Councillor Delegates would be com- pelled to retire. A thousand certificates of elec- tion, signed by a thousand inspectors of election would not avail them. Would it not then be the part of wisdom to prepare for, or guard against whatever may happen ? Would it not be the part of wisdom and prevent misunderstanding aud embarrassment, to designate or distinguish in some simple, plain manner the two classes of Del- egates, either as Representative or Councillor, on the tickets themselves ? After such a precaution, it would be known who must retire, should the Convention as is not at all improbable, put a con- struction upon the Enabling Act difiering from the popular construction. And thus much time and contention and many heart-burnings might b6 •saved." In the same paper of May twenty-thirdj previous to the election, it contained an article entitled "Doings of the Democratic Nomi- " nating Convention." It is as follows : " Meeting called to order by J. B. Gilbert, Esq. " Chose R. L. Joice President, and J. S. Dem- mon Secretary. "The name of Delegates were then called, and all appeared but Mr. Cassitt in First Ward, James Holmes in Second Ward, and J. A. Lennon in Third Ward. Said vacancies hlled by substituting Mulligan for Cassitt, Lochran for HolmeSj and Endy for Lennon. " The proceedings of the last meeting was then read. " On motion of Mr. Gilbert, the Convention then proceeded to nominate candidates to the Con- stitutional Convention by ballot. " On motion of Mr. Lochran, it was voted to proceed to nominate singly. " On motion of J. B. Gilbert, the first ballot to be considered informal. " On motion of Mr. Lochran, voted that the first two nominated shall be candidates at large. " Whereupon, B. B. Meeker, Wm. Lochran, R. 28 Fewer, S. Rtanchfield, La Schell and C. A. Tuttle were imanimously nominated. "J. S. Demmon Secretary/' And on the same day is published at the head of its columns : "DEMOCRATIC NOMIXATIOXS. DELEGATES TO THE COXSTITUTIOXAL COXVEXTIOXi Delegates at Large. B. B. Meeker. William Lochkax. District Ddegatea. RicHAED Fewer. Samuel Staxchfield. W. M. La Schell. C. A. Tcttle." I would here state that subsequent to Jhe nomination, and before the election, Mr Lochran, nominated as Delegate as Lai'ge, declined, and Mr. Secbetaby Chase was put in his place. On the day of election, however, the ticket came out differently, and I wiU here state what is within my personal knowl- edge, that they did come out so differently because Judge Meeker himself went person- ally into the printing office on the Tiohj Sab- hath day-, and superintended the printing of those tickets in a different manner from what the nomination had been heard. On the sixth of June, subsequent to the election, but previous to the canvass, the fol- lowing article appeared in the same paper : " According to current report the Black sharpers made a point of the alleged fact that the Demo- cratic ticket was printed in solido, and without any classification of candidates in words, either as Council or Representative Delegates ; and there- upon base a claim for certificates to Mcephy and Putxam, who were distinguished on the printed ballots of the "Republicans" as "Delegates at Large." Well, there is no call here for a waste of ink or of breath. The entire matter is resolved into a question of intent and understanding ; and when we arrive at the common intent and general understanding in the premises, we have the only solution. And in the outset it may be asserted and very easily proved that the names of Judge Meeker and C. L. Chase were, the Saturday before the election, at the head of the columns of the St. Anthony Express, under the appellation printed in legible characters, of "Delegates at Large." This of itself meets the objection raised^ of a want of an understood and received distinction in the public mind as to which were to be consid- ered Council aud which Representative Delegates." And on the thirteenth day of June, subse- quently to the canvass thsre appeared in the same paper the following article : "Where is Judge Meeker? Why is he not here pulling his own chestnuts out of the fire." Now, Mr. President, as I said before, not only did the law require the designation to b« fil8 MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Friday, July 31. made upon the tickets between the two classes of Delegates, but also the Democratic party of that district knew that it was so required ; Jnade their nominations in that way, published them in that way by their own showing, on the Saturday previous to the Monday on which the election took place ; and that subsequently to the election they undertook to offer an argument that because they so published them, the voters would be presumed to have it understood that they were voting for Meeker and Chase as Delegates at Large, and the others from the representative district, and that the Board of Canvassers were bound to take that as evidence, in opposition to the evidence of the tickets which the voters had cast. Again, the inquiry in regard to the where- abouts of Judge Meeker, shows three things ; In the first place, that they understood that there were some chesnuts in the fire, and liable to be burned ; second, that these ches- nuts belonged particularly to Judge Meeker ; and in the third place, charging him with not being there to attend to them — or in other words, charging Judge Meeker with having produced the state of the case under which they were laboring ; that there was trouble and that he had brought it about. Now, I propose to say a word in regard to "what is alleged as the inconsistency of this Convention in this matter. It is asserted that while the distinction between the two •classes of Delegates had been recognized by somebody — and it is charged upon the Con- vention — that the Convention themselves have disregarded that distinction in other cases; and the case of the gentleman from the Eleventh Council District (Mr. Sheldon) is referred to as one instance. In that case, Mr. President, it appears by the evidence before this Convention, that Mr. Sheldon actually received in the Council District for which he was a candidate, three votes more than R. P. Russell ; that every one of those votes contained the distinction, but that the judges of election, in making the returns to the register of deeds of their precincts, failed to preserve that distinction, and that conse- quently the canvassing board, being bound by law to recognize and preserve that distinction, could not go behind the returns,* and they returned Mr. Russell as duly elected to this Convention ; that this Convention having the power to go behind the certificate, Mr. Russell refusing to appear here, and Mr. Sheldon claiming the seat, the Convention determined that he having received the greatest number of votes cast for that partic- ular oflBce, was entitled to a seat in this Convention. It has also been asserted that twenty-eight members of this Convention, sitting in this body were voted for in the same manner as were the Democrats in the Third Council District. Mr. President, this Convention knows, of course, nothing about that matter, but I have simply to say that in each of the districts in which that thing occurred both tickets were in the same form, both parties making a mistake, as I understood it, in the printing of their tickets, and consequently one had no preference over the other, and that tire register of deeds in those counties did per- fectly right in giving the cerSflcates to those having the highest number of votes. The same principle will apply to the two scats that are said to be illegally held by Delegates from the Eighth Council District. Not only in that district was it necessary to make the distinction because there were two classes of Delegates to be elected, but also because there were two Councillor Dele- gates to be elected in diflFerent districts from • the different Representative Delegates. The counties of Houston and Mower, being them- selves separated by the county of Fillmore, constituting one of the subdivisions of the Eighth Council District, are entitled to one Councillor, while the county of Houston is entitled to two representatives, and^he county of Mower one. Consequently under the Ena- bling Act the county of Houston would be en- titled to elect four Delegates and the county of Mower would be entitled to elect two Delegates, and under the Territorial Act the Council Dis- trict of Houston and Mower together were en- titled to elect two Delegates. It is alleged that two delegates sitting in this Convention received a less number of votes than two others to whom certificates of election were refused. But by the report of the committee on Cre- dentials, before referred to, it appears that the two gentlemen sitting in this body, whose scats, it is alleged, are illegally held by them, received the highest number of votes in the MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Friday, July 81. 21ff council district for the particular office of delegate for that council district, and that they were, vrah. only slight exceptions, the only- persons who received any votes for that office. Now, Mr. President, I suppose gentlemen have been uneasy wliile I have been speak- ing, because they wish to go on with the business of the Convention. I ^vish to pro- gress with our business as much as they do, and I will do the best I can to go on with it. But, sir, while the action of this Convention, in their accepting the certificates of every in- dividual who has brought them here, as the only e\'idence that could be received, have taken no other than the regular and legal course, yet I deem it my privilege and my duty to place this matter upon the record, in a position to show that not only has this Convention pursued the steps required of them by law, but also that all canvassing and returning officers of the Territorial gov- ernment have pursued the same steps. And although I am aware that it is, at times, superfluous to raise a point before it is made in Convention, yet I trust that it will be ad- mitted by all gentlemen that there are times when it is proper that they should go beyond that. I have not asked this body, nor would I desire or consent to ask this body to take any action upon the matter. "What has . been said has been said as a matter of knowledge, as a member of this Convention. I have further to say that, as a matter of equity, the delegates from the Third Council District, whose seats have been alleged to be held illegally, themselves believe and know that they not only hold their seats here in strict legal regularity, but also as the repre- sentatives of quite a large majority of all the legal voters in their districts, and had it been their fortune to have had them contested, they would have shown it to the world. The average majority, counting the votes as passed without any distinction, with the Democratic ticket, is fifteen; and I assert, without the fear of successful contradiction, that a simple examination of the poll books of Manomin, Minneapolis, St. Paul, and St. Anthony, would find, without a reasonable doubt to this Convention, or to anybody, that all the delegates sitting in tlus body from the Third , Council District, represent at least fifty ma- jority of the legal voters of that District. EEPOBT OP COStMITTEE. Mr. MESSER, from the committee on Im- peachment and Removal firom Office, made the following report, which was read a first and second time, and laid upon the table to be printed, viz : " Sec. 1. The House of Representatives shall have the sole power of impeaching civil oflBcers for corrupt conduct in oflSce, or for crimes or mis- demeanors, but a majority of the members elected shall be necessary to direct an impeachment. Sec. 2. Every impeachment shall be tried by the Senate. When the Governor or Lieutenant Governor is tried, the Chief Justice of the Su- preme Court shall preside. "When an impeachment is directed, the Senate shall take an oath or affirmation truly and impar- tially to try and determine the same according to the evidence. 2fo person shall be convicted with- out the concurrence of two-thirds of the members elected. Judgment, in case of impeachment shall not ex- tend fmther than removal from office; but the party convicted shall be liable to punishment ac- cording to law. Sec 3. When an impeachment is directed, the House of Representatives shall elect from their own body three members, whose duty it shall be to prosecute such impeachment. I*o impeachment shall be tried untU the tinal adjournment of the Legislature, whdn the Senate shall proceed to try the same. Sec. i. Xo judicial officer shall exercise his office after an impeachment is directed, until he is acquitted. Sec. 5. The Governor may make provisional appointment to fill a vacancy occasioned by the suspension of an officer until he shall be acquitted, or until after the election and qualification of a successor. Sec. 6. For reasonable cause, which shall not be sufficient ground for the impeachment of a Judge, the Governor shall remove him on a con- current resolution of two-thirds of the members elected to each House of the Legislature ; but the cause for which such removal is required shall be stated at length in such resolution. Sec 7. The Legislature shall provide by law for the removal of any officer elected by a county or township or school district, in such manner as to them shall seem just and proper." BESOLUTIOXS. The following resolution, oflfered yesterday, was taken from the table and read : "Besolved, That this Convention adjourn with- out day on Friday, the seventh day of August next." Mr. BOLLES moved that the resolution be laid on the table. 220 MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Friday, July 81. The motion was agreed to. The resolution offered by Mr. McCLrnE yesterday, was also taken from the table and read, and then, on motion of Mr. McClxjre, the same was again laid upon the table. PROPOSITIONS OF CONGRESS. Mr. BATES, I would enquire what dispo- sition has been made of the report in refer- ence to accepting the propositions of Congress ? Mr. SEGQMBE. It was considered in pommittec of the Whole, reported back to the Convention with a recommendation that it be adopted, and was ther^ laid upon the table, Mr. BOLLES moved that the report be ^aken up at this time. The motion was agreed to, and the report was taken from the table and read. Mr. MORGAJJ. I move that the rules be so far suspended as to allow this report to be referred to the con^mittee on Arrangement find Phraseology. The motion was agreed to, and the report ■^as accordingly so referred. BOUNDARIES OF THE STATE. Mr. SECOMBE. I move that the Conven- ^on resolve itself into a committee of the Whole, to take into consideration the report pf the committee upon Boundaries, Mr. COLI^URN. I should not object to that motion were it not from the fact that when the matter was last befo;re the Conven- tion, the gentleman from Winona (Mr. Wilson) stated that he wished to present a minority report, and at that time it was de- ferred in order to enable him to do sa That gentleman is not present now, though he has something prepared in the nature of a substi- tute for the report. For that reason I think we liad better not go into committee now. Mr. SECOMB^, The gentleman from Win- ona stated, at the time the matter was up before, that he would make hiis minority report the next d,ay, and that be would ask no further delay. Mr. COLBUilN. Tl^e gentleman intended to make a minority report, but he has since concluded to offer a substitute instead. He is prepared to do so as soon as he returns. lie has gone to his rooms for a special purpose. Mr. McKUNE, I hope the gentleman will withdraw his motion. There are quite a number who feel interested in this matter, but they are not now prepared to meet it. Mr. COGGSWELL. The geiftleman from Winona was present this morning, and stated to me that there was no probability that this report would be reached untU this afternoon, and that it was indispensably necessary that he should go to his room to transact some business. He desired me to state, if this report should be called up, that he desired that it should be postponed until after dinner, as he desired to be heard upon a proposition he had to submit. Knowing some of the positions he occupies, and sympathising with him somewhat, I hope the report will not be taken up now, Mr. SFjCOMBE. I have no personal wishes upon the subject, and as it seems to be the desire of the Convention, I withdraw the motion. Mr. COLBURN. As there seems to be no business before the Convention, and as there are several committees which have business to transact, I move that the Convention adjourn until half past two o'clock. The motion was agreed to, and thereupon (at half past eleven o'clock) the Conventiori adjourned, AFTERNOON SESSION. REPORT OF COMMITTEES, Mr. BILLINGS, from the committee on State Officers other than Executive, made tho following report, which was read a first and second time and laid on the table to be printed. Skc. 1. There shall t^e elected at each general biennial election a Secretary of State, State Treas- urer, Attorney General, State Auditor and Super- intendent of Public Instruction for tho term of two years. They shall keep their offices at the SiCat of Government, and perform such duties and, receive such compensation as may be prescribed by law, Sec, 2. Their term of office shall commence on the first Monday of January succeeding their ejection, and everj' second year thereafter. Skc, 3, Whenever a vacancy shall occur in, aiyr of the State Offices, the Governor shall fill the same by appointment, until the next election of Representatives, by and with the advice and con- sent of the Senate, if in session. Skc. 4. The Secretary of State, State Treasurer, and Auditor, shall constitute a Board of State Canvassers, to determine the result of all elections, 'for Governor and State Officers, and such othev ' Qflicera w may be referred to tliem. MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Friday, July 31. 221 Sec. 5. In case two or more persons have an equal and highest number of votes lor any Office, fLS canvassed by the Board of State Canvassers, the Legislature in joint Convention, shall choose one of said persons to fill such office. Sec. 6. When the determination of the Board pf State Canvassers is contested, the Legislature in Joint Convention shall decide which person is elected. COM.MITTEE OX ENEOLLMEXT. Mr. }iIcCLURE moved that a committee of three on EmroUment be appointed by the Chair. Mr. HARDING. I would inquire if such a committee has not already been appointed ? The PRESIDENT. A committee on En- grossment has been appointed. Mr, McCLURE. It is usual to have both an Enrolling and Engrossing Committee, The committee on Arrangement and Phraseology have too much business thrown upoii their hands. The motion was agreed to, and thereupon the President appointed as such committee Messrs. Folsoji, Cleghorx and Russell. Mr. McCLURE, from the committee on Arrangement and Phraseology, reported back reports number one and eight, being the reports upon the Preamble and Bill of Rights, ^nd ■ upon the LegislaMve Department, and asked that they be referred to the committee on Enrollment. They were so referred. boundaries of the state. On motion of Mr. CQLBURN, the Convene tion resolved itself into a committee of the Whole, (Mr. Thojipsos in the chair) upon the report of the committee upon Boundaries. The report was read as follows : "It is hereby ordained and declared that the State of Minnesota doth consent to and accept of the boundaries prescribed in the act of Congress entitled an act to enable the people of Minnesota to form a Constitution and State Government pre- paratory to their admission in the Union on an equal footing with the original States, approved ilarch 3d, 1S57 : Beginning at the point in the centre of the main channel of the Red River of the North where the boundary line between the United States and the British possessions crosses the same ; thence up the main channel of the said River, to that of the Bois des Sioux River ; thence up the main channel of said River, to Lake Trav- erse ; thence up the centre of said Lake to the southern extremity thereof; thence in a direct line to the head of Big Stone Lake ; thence through its centre to its outlet ; thence by a due south line to the north line of the State of Iowa; thence along the northern boundary of said State to the main channel of the Mississippi River ; thence up the main channel of said River, and following the boundary line of the State of Wisconsin until the same intersects the Saint Louis River ; thence down the said River to and through Lake Superior on the boundary line of Wisconsin and Michigan, until it intersects the dividing line between the United States and the British possessions ; thence up the Pigeon River, and following said dividing line to the place of beginning." Mr. WILSON. I was a member of the committee which made this report, though I did not concur in it. I intended to make a minority report, but will content myself with oflfering the following substitute ; "The boundaries of the State of Minnesota shall be as follows : Beginning in the middle of the main channel of the Missouri River at the point where the forty- sixth parallel of north latitude crosses the same ; thence down the middle of the main channel of said Missouri River to the western boundary of the State of Iowa at a point opposite the mouth of the main channel of the Big Sioux River ; thence up the middle of the main channel of said Big Sioux River to the north west corner of the State of Iowa; thence east along the northern boundary of said State to the main channel of the Mississippi River ; thepce up the main channel of the Missis- sipi River following the boundary line of the State of Wisconsin until it is intersected by the parallel of forty-six degrees north latitude ; thence west ?dong said parallel of forty-six degrees until said parallel intersects the middle of the main channel of the Missouri River at the point of beginning." Mr. McKUNE, I hope this substitute will be adopted. Its claims are so just that Uttle need to be said to convince the mind of any man that great benefits would be derived irom adopting it. The boundaries contained in the Enabling Act are only recommenda- tory. It that be true, then the people of Minnesota are perfectly free to establish their own boundaries. The boundaries proposed in the substitute include nearly all the inhab- ited portion of Minnesota and nearly all that ever can become populous. By adopting this boundary we not only get rid of large tracts of unfertile lands, but of conflicting interests, which will require distinct and separate legis- lation. Legislation which is applicable to and necessary for the protection of a fjuming com- munity, is not applicable to, or necessary for a minmg, trapping or hunting district. No 222 MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Friday, July 31. man will deny but that the agricultural in- terest north of the parallel of forty-six dcgi'ces is dwarfed to insignificance, nor will they deny that lumber is the main product of the Ter- ritory north of that line. The mining region is very small. The fur trade is of considera- ble consequence, and almost all its benefits are confined to this City. The people north of that line, by this division, will be deprived of none of the commercial advantages they now enjoy, nor shall we be deprived of the large lumber interest which we now enjoy. The commerce created by the mining interest of the present Territory is confined to the shores of lake Superior, and goes from there directly east, and consequently it does not benefit the Territory of Minnesota generally one doUar. The City of St. Paul or any other trading post wUl enjoy the same amount of trade from the north that they do now. No man will pretend to say that St. Paul will receive a less share of the fur trade than she does now, or that the rivers flowing south will be turned north so as to deprive us of the lumber trade. By this division, the peo- ple north of the line will have all the com- merce and advantages they now possess, and at the same time be separated from the con- flicting interests which would forever be a curse to the Territory north of the parallel of forty-six degrees. I have now shown you that no portion of this Territory will lose anything by this pro- posed new boundary, and now let us see what benefits the south will derive from such a boundary. The proposed boundary stretches from the St. Croix River to the navigable wa- ters of the Missouri, taking in an area of Ter- ritory almost equal to that included within the boundaries proposed by the Enabling Act, south of forty-six degrees of latitude, and in- cludes a rich agricultural country second to none in this Territory, and drawing with it all the commerce and trade of all the numer- ou.s branches of thot, I hope we 256 MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Satuedat, August 1. do not intend to pass such a law as this. Where people have gone, with their eyes open, upon the school lands, I am in favor of leav- ing them to bear the consequences. If we make such a law, our lands will all run down to a dollar and a quarter an acre. I am in favor of having every man bearing the con- sequences of his own act. I think more of the school fund, than of the interest of any individual. And if we make one exception, it will be a great loss to the school fund. Mr. COGGSWELL. Mr. President, I do not desire to talk on this matter ; but if gen- tlemen are going to legislate here in regard to these school lands, I want to say a word for those men who have been so much abused for going on these lands. I want those men pro- tected to a certain extent. I desire the yeas and nays to be called on my amendment ; and that every member should be compelled to vote for or against it, that we may see how gentlemen stand on this school land legisla- tion. Mr. GALBRAITH. I will put down my name ; and if any gentleman wants it plainer, I will tell him, that I believe that every man who settles on the school lands after the sur- vey, and with knowledge of the fact, ought to loose his improvements, if he were the angel Gabriel dropped down ! It is a pubhc injury. Mr. STANNARD. I believe that every man who lays claim to one foot of these gov- ernment lands, is a trespasser against the State and the right of children yet unborn. Mr. McKUNE. I would just as soon give up the whole— just as soon these settlers should have the remainder of the land. If we are to do an unjust thing, let us do some- thing notorious. Mr. BOLLES. Mr. Pbesident, If I un- derstand the amendment, it is, that upon all school lands that may hereafter be settled, up to the time of appraisement, the improve- ments shall be taken into consideration. It says to these men, " put on your claims and "improvements, and you shall be paid for " them." My objection to the proposition is, that it holds out inducements to settle the school lands hereafter, Mr. COGGSWELL. So far as I am con- cerned, Mr. Pbesident, I had just as lief make myself notorious in advocating this amendment as not. I am entirely willing to take all the responsibility — perfectly ready and willmg to father the whole thing. But, sir, when we come to look at the character of the amendment, we find that it works nothing like wrong or injustice to the school fund. We do not find that the fund is to be depre- ciated by it in the least. We find that when the appraisement is made, it shall be, at what the lands would have been worth,'provided they had remained untouched and unoccu- pied. Is not that enough ? If I ask'; for more, I ask for injustice. Do you not get all youl^coxild get, provided the land was not set- tled upon ? I ask any gentleman if that is not so ? — and if; when the land comes to be appraised, the individual who has gone on there and made his improvements, shall be ready and willing to pay the amount of the appraisement, does he not pay a fair consid- eration for the land ? All that it is worth, and all that men, acting under the sanctions and obligations of an oath, say that it is worth ? Do you want twice their value ? Do you want one cent more than they are worth ? I know you do not intend any such thing, when you come to reflect upon it. I know that the interests of the childi-en of the_^Stato do not demand any such thing. They [demand noth- ing but what is right and just; and I say, when a man will stand up here, and ask of these hardy settlers any more than what is right and just, he is unworthy of the name of a representative^of the people ^of Minnesota, let him come from what quarter he may. Besides this, Mr. President, when a man has gone' upon a 'piece of school land, not knowing so much about the lines as some gentleman here ; when he has gone on inno- cently, and for the purpose of making such land his home as long as ho may remain in this world ; when he has gone on cultivating the soil and improving every day, making for himself a residence and reputation, helping to bear the burdens of government — I ask you, sir, would you turn him away from his im- provements and his home ? If any would do that, I ask the man to stand up now before the House and the people and say so. Mr. GALBRAITU (rising). I say so. Mr. COGGSWELL. I say then, Mr. Pbesident, that man is not the man to repre- sent my section of the Territory. I say moreover, that man isnot the man to rcprc- MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES—Sattbday, Augpst 1. 257 sent the interests of the gchool fund of the State of Minnesota ; and woe to the man that will come into this Hall and undertake to advocate a doctrine of that kind. I say, Mr. Pbesident, it is rank iniquity and injustice ; and I should not be true to myself and my trust, if I did not pronoimce its condemnation. All I ask is, that those who have gone upon these school lands innocently, and not knowing the collateral right, in the case, may be protected ; that they may not be turned away from their homes — ^homes built under circumstances of peril and privation and toil, when it was Hke drawing their life blood. I know there have been such cases. I know of many. I know them weU ; and to turn such men away from their homes and their improvements — I say it is wrong, it is iniqui- tous and unjust ; and in my judgment the man that would advocate such a proceeding is not the man to represent the best interests of this Territory. Now, sir, let us do what is right and just in this matter ; and that is, that the school fund shall receive a just and fair consideration ; and that at the same time, the man that has gone upon the land, and given to it an increas- ing value, shall not be turned out upon the cold world without a dollar for his improve- ments. I know there are men upon the school lands willing to pay the price they would be worth, provided their rights were not to be touched — men who are able and wflling to pay, and would secure and re- secure the price — men of fenulies, who have well cultivated farms — acres of com, wheat, and potatoes — men who have paid taxes for the support of government — good, honest citizens. These men, sir, are part of the wealth and prosperity of this Territory, and I do not like to see them ruined. I will not, if I can help it. Mr. GALBRAITH. Mr. Pbesident, I suppose it might be expected that I should get a Uttle cross. But that is not the kind of stuff that makes me cross. I have simply to say on this matter — and I hope I shall say it quietly and peacefully — that there is a regular rule about everything. I suppose every man will admit, that no man can settle on a school section of surveyed land, without knowing that it is a school section ; and I say again, that, knowing what he is about, he has 33 no more right there, than if it were individual property. He might just as well go upon my land. Now, where are you going to draw the dis- tinction ? If 3-0U let the good, moral, indus- trious, improving man go upon them, I can go, and jTom, Dick and Harry can go upon them ; and where one would go upon these lands with decent husbandry, and increase their value, one himdred would go upon them skinning and withdrawing the life-blood of the land. These school lands are now held in trust for the State by the government of the United States ; and as soon as we shall be a State in the Union, they vrill be held by the State in trust for the children of the State, If we aUow one to settle them, we must allow all, else our rule will not be equal and democratic, as gentleman would have us to be. TVe are asking for nothing wrong. "We ask only for the value of the land — the money the land will bring ; and that these men shall not go upon it and cultivate it, well or iU. The best plan is to keep all and everybody off entirely. That is the plan that I advo- cate, and I think it is a plan that a majority of this Convention will advocate. If one man goes on, others may go — have not I as good a right as any other man? — ^and then get an appraisement, and an assessment of damages ! Why, sir, the school lands in every part of the Territory would be settled upon in one month after such a proposition should become a law ; and there woxild be vast associations and combinations formed — and they we already formed — to unite in large bodies and break down the sales of the school lands, and thus the school fund would be thrown away. I tell you, sir, we ought to hedge about this fimd; and that is the only thing we have not done enough of. We want a hedge about it. The proposition we have just adopted is a good one. It enunci- ates a good sound principle ; and if I can find means to hedge about this land, so that no man can go upon it to the hurt of the sdiool fund, I shall vote for it. Mr. STANNARD. I want to say a few words in reply to the gentleman from Steele County, (Mr. Cogswell.) He seems to think there will be no other result of his amend- ment than the protection of the settler. But 258 MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Monday, August 8. if I wanted to do a kind thing, especially for the boys, to go into the woods and help them- selves, I would vote for his amendment. I know ther« are valuable timbered school lands; and under this protection, the boys could go upon them, cut wood as they please, and get pay for so doing besides. I think the gentleman's speech would look well, if he were arguing for the repeal of the law, which makes it the duty of the County Commission- ers to supervise and prevent depredation and waste of timber on our school lands. The yeas and nays were ordered on the adoption of Mr. Coggswell's amendment, and being taken resulted — yeas V, nays 35 — as follows : F«a«— Messrs. Colburn, Coggswell, Hanson, Mantor, Phelps, Thompson, and Vaughn.— 7. Nays — Messrs. Aldrich, Anderson, Ayer, Bal- combe, Baldwin, Bates, Billings, Butler, Cleghorn, Coombs, Davis, Duley, Eschlie, Folsom, Gal- braith, Gerrish, Hall, Hayden, Harding, Hudson, HoUey, Lyle, McKune, McClure, Messer, Morgan, Murphy, North, Putnam, Peckham, Stannard, Se- combe, Watson, Wilson, and Sheldon. — 35. So the amendment was rejected. The question was then taken upon Mr. Aldeich's second amendment, and it was also rejected. Mr. ALDRICH. I now offer the following additional section : " Sec. — . Institutions for the benefit of those inhabitants who are deaf, dumb, blind or insane, shall always be fostered and sustained." Mr. BILLINGS. Mr. Pbesident, I pro- pose to amend the section, so that it would read, " Institutions for the benefit of persons " who are deaf, dumb, blind or insane, shall " always be fostered ; and the Legislature " shall encourage the promotion of intellectual, " scientific and agricultural improvements, and " as soon as practicable provide for the estab- " lishment of an Agricultural School, and " place the same under the supervision of the " Regents of the University." The amendment to the amendment was re- jected. The original amendment was also rejected. Mr, ALDRICH. I offer the foUowing as an additional section : " Sbc. — . The Legislature shall encourage the promotion of intellectual, scientific, and agricultu- ral improvements, and shall as soon as practicable provide for the establishment of an Agricultural School. The Legislature may appropriate all salt springs, with the six sections of land adjoining or contiguous thereto, to which the State, on admis- sion to the Union shall be entitled according to the provisions of the Act of Congress, entitled ' An Act to authorize the people of Minnesota to form a Constitution and State government preparatory to their admission into the Union on an equal foot- ing with the original States,' and any land which may hereafter be granted or appropriated for such purpose, for the support and maintenance of such school, and may make the same a branch of the University for instruction in Agriculture and the natural sciences connected therewith, and place the same under the supervision of the Kegents of the University." This amendment was also rejected. Mr. ALDRICH. I move that the rules be so far suspended as to allow this report as amended to be referred to ,the Committee on Arrangement and Phraseology. Mr. GALBRAITH. Was the substitute adopted in place of the report ? Mr. ALDRICH. It was adopted without change, except that one word was stricken out. Mr. McCLURE. It seems to me that our rules contemplate the reference after the re- port is read a third time. Mr. PUTNAM moved (at half-past four o'- clock,) that the Convention adjourn. The motion was not agreed to. Mr. PECKHAM. Before the question on suspending the rules is taken, I wish to move to amend the report by restoring the word "exclusively," which was stricken out. The PRESIDENT. The motion is not in order. Mr. PECKHAM. I move to reconsider the vote by which the Convention struck out that word. The PRESIDENT. That motion is out of order, until the other motion is disposed of. The question was taken on the motion of Mr. Aldrich, and it was agreed to. And thereupon, the report, as amended, was referred to the Committee on Arrange- ment and Plu-aseology. And then, on motion of Mr. Folsom, (at five o'clock and forty minut«s,) the Conven- tion adjourned. NINETEENTH DAY. Monday, August 3d, 1857. 1'ho Convention met at nine o'clock, a. m. Prayer by the Chaplain, Rev. E. D. Neill. iriNXESOTA CONTENTION DEBATES— M:o>t)at, August 3. 259 The journal of Saturday was read and ap- proved. RETORT OP COMaOTTEE. Mr. COGGSWELL, by unanimous consent, made the following Special Report : " The Committee upon the Preamble and Bill of Rights, to whom was referred the Petition of B. F. BoxD and others, citizens of the County of Dodge, praying ' that the liberty and right of conscience ' to all citizens may be secured,' have had the same under consideration, and beg leave to report — " That they believe it to be our duty to incorpo- rate nothing into the Constitution except general and fundamental principles, which are calculated to guard and protect the rights of all men equally, and that clause of the eighteenth section of the BiU of Rights, heretofore reported by us, which is ' Xor shall any control or interference with the 'rights of conscience be permitted, &c,,' will se- cure substantially the objects desired by said peti- tioners, and that if any farther specific or special privileges in regard to the service of civil process, and the days of holding elections, not mentioned in the Constitution, are required, that the same should be done, by the Legislature, and not this Convention. Therefore, your Conmiittee would respectfully ask to be discharged firom the farther consideration of the subject." The Report was accepted, and the Commit- tee discharged. COrSTY XSD TOWXSHIP ORGASIZATIOX. On motion of Mr. Colburs, the Convention resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole, (Mr. Galbhaith in the Chair,) upon the Re- port of the Committee upon County and Township Organizations. (For Report, see proceedings of July 29th.) The Report was read by clauses, for amendment. Sec. 2. No new county shall be formed or established by the Le^^islature, of less area than four hundred square miles, nor shall any organized county be divided, or have any part stricken therefrom, without submitting the question to a vote of the electors of the county or counties to be directly affected or dismembered, and unless a majority of all the votes shall be in favor of the same. Mr. BILLINGS moved to strike out section two. Mr. WILSON. I hope the section will not be stricken out, for the reason that the matter of changing the boundaries of counties has been a subject of firaud from beginning to end. There is is no subject upon which there have been more iniquitous proceedings, more high- handed villainy, than in the matter of chang- ing county boundaries and coimty seats, even in our own Territory. It has been done as a matter of political discipline in some cases. It is made a matter of bargain in the Legisla- ture, by promising votes for such purposes, in order to procure votes for other matters. Thus the interests of the people are bargained away. There have been cases before the Legislature — and it is said that some of our Winona delegates were engaged in it, though I do not know that it is so — when the Legisla- ting came near fixing a county seat where there was not a settler. There have been cases where they have taken off a part of one coimty and attached it to another, where there was not only no necessity for it, but where it made the county of a bad shape. It has been so done for the purpose of making political capital of some sort. Now, such being the case, the Legislature ou^t to be placed under some restraint in this respect. The people know better than the Legislature can know, what boundaries they need, and I am opposed to having the boundaries of any county changed until the people express a desire for it. Mr. BILLINGS. I see nothing in this section in regard to changing county seats. We cannot make four himdred square miles contain any even number of townships, and the fact that it will contain a certain number and a fraction, indicates to me that it was recommended to subserve some special piir- pose. There are many townships in the Territory which contain nine townships, and the people are perfectly satisfied. If they want twelve let them express their wish to that effect I have no objection to having the people vote for or against such a proposi- tion, but I am opposed to saying in the Con- stitution, that they shall not have less than such an amoxmt, for cases may arise when cotmties with nine townships will be better prepared to support the burdens of a coimty oi^anization, than other counties with twelve or twenty townships. My objection is not that the people shall not have the right to vote, for I would enlarge rather than restrict that right. Mr. MESSER. K the gentlemen has an objection to the first part of the report, I hope he will offer an amendment to it. I know that last winter the Legislature came very near 260 MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Monday, August 3. removing the county seat of McLeod county from Glencoe to a place upon a small lake, when, in fact, there were no inhabitants with- in five miles of that place. This is an im- portant matter, and it seems to me that some restriction should be thrown around the power of the Legislature in that respect. Something should be done, also, in regard to the areas of counties, because I believe coun- ties have been organized containing only one township. Mr. BALCOMBE. I am in favor of strik- ing out this section, but not for the reason that I am not in favor, substantially, of the section, for I am. It contains a good restric- tion, but there are many good laws and re- strictions which it would not be wise for us to insert into the Constitution. I was in favor of the system of schools reported by the committee the other day, but, upon reflec- tion, I came to the conclusion that it was not best to attempt to insert that system in the Constitution. Now I am in favor of this section, and were I in the Legislature, making general laws, I should vote for such a law ; but I do not think it judicious and proper to incorporate everything which may be good into our Constitution. Therefore I am in favor of striking out the section. The county seat question does not properly come into consideration on the motion to strike out this section, for that subject matter is in the next section. Mr. WILSON. Now, Mr. President, I hope this pretext of being opposed to legisla- tion in the Constitution, will not be made, when gentlemen know that the Legislature will go astray. The very gentleman who has just taken his scat, my colleague, offered an amendment, the other day, to the third section of the report on the Preamble and Bill of Rights, which amendment went into the most minute legislation, and now he comes up here to-day and on a subject which interests every county in the State, objects to it because it is legislating in the Conslitution. I hope gen- tlemen will not be driven from their positions on any such grounds. Mr. FOSTER. My opinion is, that this matter should be left to the Legislature. This section, if adopted, would make those counties which have already got their county seats fixed to their present liking, permanent. Now this is a new country yet, and as popu- lation increases, it may be desirable to make many alterations, and I would not so arrange the matter in the Constitution that the people cannot, without great delay, and immense trouble, make such changes as they think proper. The section provides that no new county shall be formed of less area than four hundred square miles. Now that does not contain an even number of townships, and to fix the limits might cause inconvenience in constructing the coun- ties. Here are counties bounded by rivers, and irregular lines, and it may at some time be- convenient to lessen their size and put them into better shape. It strikes me that it is one of those provisions which may safely be left to the Legislature. The motion to strike out was not agreed to. Mr. CLEGHORN offered the following sub- stitute for section two : " No organized county shall ever be reduced by the organization of new counties to less than six- teen townships, as surveyed by the United States, unless in pursuance of law, a majority of electors residing in each county to be effected thereby shall so decide." Mr. FO STER. My objection to that is that there are quite a number of counties already in the Territory which have less than sixteen townships. In lowh the rule has been to have not less than twelve townships, I believe, in a county. Mr. CLEGHORN. My amendment has reference only to counties which may be formed hereafter. The amendment was agreed to. Mr. HARDING moved the following sub- stitute for section two as amended : "No new counties shall contain less than nine townships." Mr. CLEGHORN. I rise to a question of order. I believe it is not in order to strike out a substitute after it has been once adopted. The CHAIRMAN. The Chair decides that it is not in order. Mr. FOSTER. The substitute, if adopted, would prohibit the formation of counties of less tlmn nine townships, and would leave the detail.s of the matter with the Legislature. I am in favor of that. Mr. HARDING. Thtre arc some very large counties in this Territory and I contend MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Moxday, August 8. 261 that if the people prefer] to support smaller counties, where it can be done without injury to existing county organizations, they should have the privilege j>f so doing. In some cases we Uve twenty and thirty miles fix)m the county seats of the present counties, and it is attended with a great deal of trouble and expense to go that distance to transact our coimty business. Mr. STANNARD. This limiting the coun- ties to a particular size strikes me as a child- ish notion. I am always in favor of large States, large counties, and large towns, if possible. They possess more means, more character and more influence. But whenever the people are disposed to support a county organization, I think it is proper that they should not be restricted by a constitutional enactment. I care not how large a county corporation the people may wish, nor how much Territory they may feel disposed to in- clude within them. And I think it is their privilege to say how much they win have. In this western country, and especially in the Territory of Minnesota, it so happens that nature frequently fixes, as it were, the lines of the counties, and it would be a very great inconvenience to have the counties restiicted to a certain size. For instance, there is a cer- tain tract of land included within the forks of a river, which it might be" more convenient to have in a separate and distinct organization. I am opposed to all restriction as to the num- ber of townships which shall be included within a county, for I am in favor of leaving that to the people to decide that matter for themselves. The substitute was then rejected. Mr. FOLSOM offered the following as a substitute for the second section as amended : " No organized county shall be divided, or have any part stricken therefrom, without submitting the question to a vote of the electors of the county or counties to be directly affected or dismembered, nor unless a majority of all the votes cast shall be in favor of the same." The substitute was agreed to. Mr. FOSTER. I voted for that substitute, as approaching very nearly to what we wanted, but I do not think it is exactly the thing yet. It gives to the large counties the power of always preserving themselves from alteration. I will oflfer now, as a substitute for that, an amendment differing very little from the original section. "Xo new county shall be formed or established by the Legislature of less area than twelve town- ships without submitting the question to a vote of the electors of the county or counties to be directly affecJted or dismembered, and unless a majority of all the votes cast shall be in favor of the same." That will give the Legislature a discretion in the formation of counties above a certain size, but when it is proposed to reduce a coun- ty below that size, it is made a question for the people to decide whether they will stand the burden of a small county. For instance in the case of St. Paul and Ramsey County there is no question but that the policy of the people is to cut doMS-n their county to an ex- ceedingly small size. It would be proper for them to do so, and it would suit the other counties around her. But if you leave the matter in the form in which it has been placed by the substitute of the gentleman from Chisago (Mr. Folsom), it will be impossible under the Constitution, to do so. Here is a mass of p:ople whose interests are centered within an area of a few miles around, and they want to be together by themselves. The same will be true in reference to other cities, and I think we should leave the door open, so that the people may vote to do so if they see fit. I think it will prove an unwholsome provision to put this restraint of a popular vote upon the Legislature, when counties are to be formed below a certain size. The Legislature, last winter created a county embracing one single ferm, as it were, which had only sixty votes. Of course I want to see all such op- erations stopped. On the other hand we might err by prohibiting too much. I think a medium ground is the best, and I hope my substitute will be adopted. Mr. SECOMBE. ^Yhile I am in favor of the vote of the people being respected as a general thing, yet I am opposed to the Legis- latiire being absolutely bound by that vote. The gentieman who has just spoken, alluded to the County of Ramsey, and I will use that case as an illustration. A portion of the Coimty of Ramsey as it now exists, is sepa- rated from another portion by the interven- tion of two counties — the counties of Anoka and Isanti — a portion of it being a hundred and fifty miles away from the city of St. Paul. Now all the provisions which have been offer- 262 MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Monday, August 3. ed here, would restrain the Legislature from making a new county of that portion which lies one hundred, and fifty miles away from St. Paul, unless a majority of the voters of the whole county should be in favor of it. Well, there being a majority of the voters here in St. Paul, and it being desirable that the people living one hundred and fifty miles away should help support the county organ- ization ; they receiving no benefit of that or- ganization whatever, they of course would always vote against a dismemberment of the County of Ramsey. That would be unjust and unreasonable. There may be many in- stances where the Iicgislature would see that it was just and reasonable to dismember a county, and form a new county out of two or three other counties, where a majority of the people of those counties would be opposed to it. Of course, they would naturally be opposed to having their county dismembered, as they would thereby lose a portion of their taxpayers. While I would have a vote of the people taken upon such a measure to ascer- tain what their views are, and that their views should be respected, yet L would certainly be opposed to the Legislature being bound and governed by that vote. It would give the majority the absolute power of restraining the minority, when the Legislature would see that it was eminently just and proper that the wishes of the minority should be respected. I hope therefore there will be some alter- ation of this section. For my own part, I would leave it so that no new county should be formed until a vote of the people in the part affected by it shall have been taken, and I would leave the Legislature a discretion af- ter that. Mr. WILSON. I wish to call the attention of some members to the fact that this proposed amendment does not come up to what we want. It does not prevent changing the boundaries of counties. For instance, there is nothing to prevent cutting off five or six miles from one county and adding it to anoth. er, thereby making the shape of the counties very bad. It does not prevent the Legisla- ture from resorting to all kinds of tricks of that sort, just as they have heretofore. I hope the substitute will be voted down. Mr. ALDRICII. I should like to see an amendment offered, which should leave the matter to be decided by a vote of the people of that portion of the county proposed to be cut off". If the people of any portion of a county desire to be cut off from that county, and to be attached to another, let them de- cide it. Mr. FOSTER. If they, and the Legisla- ture, should agree to that, nobody should ex- cept to it. Mr. ALDRICH. To leave the matter to a vote of the people of that portion of the coun- ty, would give the people living in that portion of Ramsey county, situated one hundred and fifty miles from here, the privilege of being set off by themselves, if they desired it, in- stead of being attached to Ramsey county. I move to strike out the words " the coun- ty" and all that follows it, and insert in lieu thereof the M'ords " that portion of the Terri- tory which it is proposed to set off or divide." Mr. McKtFNE. I hope the amendment will not prevail. The effect of it would be to give the right to the minority to dictate to a majority of the county ; and in that way, in many instances, prejudice the interests of the majority. By a few votes of a township, vo- ting to be set off" and attached to another county, a change of the center of the county might be made, against the best interests and the wishes of the county, thereby compelling an alteration of the County Seat. For that reason, I am very much opposed to giving to a minority the power to say to a majority what they shall do. Mr. SECOMBE. It seems tome that there can be no absolute rule laid down by this Convention on this subject. The gentleman from Hennepin county (Mr. Aldricu,) con- tended that it would be right and proper for the inhabitants of the portions of the several counties to be set off", to determine that mat- ter. Now I cannot agree with the gentleman, because you scarcely find the inhabitants of three or four counties that corner in together, but would be desirous of forming a new coun- ty ; especially when town sites are so much in demand as at the present time. If the in- habitants of those parts of the counties to bo incorporated into a new county, were allowed to govern in that manner, thc^ might do great wrong to tlie inliabitauts of other portions of the coimties. We had an illustration of that during the last two sessions of the Legislo- MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Monday, August S. 263 I ture. An attempt has been made by the in- habitants of a certain portion of Scott coun- ty, and one or two other counties, to form a new county ; and undoubtedly the inhabi- tants of those portions of the counties calling for the new covmty, were unanimously in fa- vor of it. Yet tlie inhabitants, at large, of the counties proposed to be dismembered, were opposed to it. Now while I would be opposed to binding the Legislature by a majority of aU the in- habitants of the counties to be affected by the change, I would also be opposed to the Legis- lature being bound to respect the will of a majority of those who wish to have a new county formed. I think the one would ope- rate imjustly, as weU as the other. It seems to me that we cannot form any absolute rule. I prefer that it should be left with the Legis- lature, but that they should first take the sense of the people, not only in all the coun- ties to be affected, but also the sense of the people to be affected by the particular locality which is desired to be formed into a new coun- ty, and then leave it to their discretion. Mr. COLBURN. It seems to me that the difficulty which will arise from incorporating sections of this kind into the Constitution must be obvious to every one. As has been suggested, there are a great many counties in this Territory cornered on to each other, and lying in such a manner that by taking a few townships from each, a new county might be formed, with a County Seat more convenient to those sections than the present County Seats are. It is well known that at the pre- sent time there is a great squabble for tlie Coimty Seats. Many sections of counties consider it absolutely necessary to their exis- tance that they should have the County Seats very near them. Under such circumstances, we shall have a great deal of confusion arising out of a Constitutional provision of this kind. It may meet the particular casa of the gentle- man who offered it ; but while it would answer very well in that instance, it would work mis- chief in many others, it appears to me. The question was then taken, and the amendment was not agreed to. - Mr. WILSON. I offer the following sub- stitute for the substitute : " Skc. 2. No new county shall be formed or es- tablished by the Legislature of less area than four hundred square miles, unless a majority of the qualified voters residing within the limits of the proposed county vote in favor of the same ; nor shall any organized county be divided, or have any part stricken therefrom, without submitting the question to a vote of the electors of the county or counties to be directly affected or dismembered, and unless a majority of all the votes cast shall be in favor of the same." I wiU explain the difference between that and the original section ; and I think this is what a majority of the members of the Con- vention want. It is the same as the original section, with this change — after the word " miles," in the second line, I have inserted the words, " unless a majority of the qualified "voters residing within the limits of the pro- " posed covmty, vote in favor of the same." That obviates the difficulty suggested by ray friend from Chisago. Where a new county is to be formed, and the territory from which it is to be formed is in such a shape as to make it necessary that the county should be composed of a less area than four himdred square miles, it can be done by a majority vote of the people residing within the Terri- tory of which the county is proposed to be formed. They are the ones to be affected by it ; they are the ones who have to support the county organization, and if they say that they prefer a county of a certain size and shape, let them have it. My amendment then goes on to provide for dismembering or changing the shape of or- ganized counties. It accomplishes all we want, and nothing more. It leaves the mat- ter with the people of the counties, where they are the only ones to be affected by the change. The amendment was not agreed to. Mr. KING offered the following substitute : " No new county shall be formed or established by the Legislature of less area than four hundred square miles, nor shall any organized county be divided, unless in the judgment of the Legislature the case shall imperatively demand it ; but the speculative wishes of the people shall not make an imperative case." The substitute was rejected. The question was then taken on the substi- tute offered by Mr. Foster, and it was re- jected. Sec. 3. No county seat shalf be removed until the point to which it is proposed to be removed shall be designated by two-thirds of the Board of 264 MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Monday, August 3. Supervisors of the county, and a majority of the electors of the county voting thereon shall have voted in favor of the removal of the county seat to the proposed location in such manner as shall be prescribed by law." Mr. HUDSON. I move to amend that section by striking out the words " two-thirds " of the Board of Supervisors of the county "and" Mr. ALDRICH. I move to amend the amendment by striking out also the words "shall have voted in favor of the removal of the county seat to the proposed location." Mr. STANNARD. I move to strike out the whole section. I am satisfied that this Convention should not establish any rule which shall apply to aU cases indiscriminately. The condition of our Territory will not admit of such a general rule. The motion to strike out was lost. The amendment to the amendment was lost, and the amendment itself rejected. Mr, THOMPSON moved the following sub- stitute for section three : " No county seat shall be removed until a ma- jority of the electors of the county voting thereon shall have voted in favor of the removal in such manner as shall be prescribed by law." Mr. STANNARD. I am opposed to that substitute. I think it would place it in the power of a few individuals in the county to get an act passed to submit the question to a vote of the people every year, and thus sub- ject them to great inconvenience and expense. I think when a county seat has been estab- lished by the consent of the people, and pub- lic buildings erected, they should not be sub- ject to having the question of removal raised upon them year after year. Mr. SECOMBE. I am in favor of the sub- stitute. The gentleman from Chisago is op- posed to a removal of the county seat when it has been fixed by the people. Now it is well known that that is not the way in which county seats have been fixed in the Territory. As a general thing, they have been located arbitrarily by the Legislature, and without regard to the wishes of the people, merely to accommodate individual interest^ in particu- lar localities. I see no objection whatever to a Constitutional provision restricting the Le- gislature in the exercise of such a power as that, and leaving it to a vote of the people of the whole county to determine. But I am opposed to requiring that two-thirds of the board of supervisors should first designate the location. I hope the substitute will be adopted. Mr. BALCOMBE. I hope the substitute will not prevail. I believe in delivering the whole subject matter of covmty seats to the peo- ple themselves, without any interference upon the part of the Legislature. If we are to have any provision upon this subject in the Constitution— and I am opposed to that, as I was opposed to the insertion of a clause in reference to the size of the counties — I am in favor of a provision which shall put it out of the power of the Legislature to interfere with county seats at all ; in favor of the section as it is, putting the matter into the hands of the supervisors, and the people. And I am also in favor of the two-third clause, so far as the supervisors are concerned. A majority of the people should rule, but in matters of .this kind a vote of two-thirds of the servants of the people should be required. Mr. HA YDEN, I am in favor of the sub- stitute, because I am opposed to this tw'O- thirds clause in reference to the supervisors. That would give a small minority of the su- pervisors the veto power. For instance, sup- pose a large majority of the people were in favor of the removal of the county seat, but one-third of the board of supervisors should be opposed to it; that one-third would have control of the whole matter, and would de- prive the people of their rights. Mr. BALCOMBE. If any gentleman is opposed to the two-third clause, that need not cause him to vote for the substitute, for he can offer an amendment, giving the power to a majority of the board of supervisors, instead of two-thirds. As I understand it, it is the intention of the section, that in the first instance, the board of supervisors shall pro- pose the removal, and designate the point to which the removal shall be made. The pro- posal must be carried by a two-tliird vote of the supervisors, and the people are not per- mitted to vote untQ two-thirds of the board do vote and designate the point to which the removal shall fee made. After that is done, then the people have a veto power upon the action of the board. That is, the people have the veto power, and not the board of super- visors. Gentlemen need not vote for the sub- MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Mokdat, August 3. 265 stitute in order to get rid of the two-third clause. They can vote down the substitute, and then amend the section so as to require the assent of only a majority of the board of supervisors. The substitute will place the matter in the hands of the Legislature, and, as I said be- fore, I am opposed to putting it in the power of the Legislature to make any proposals about the county seats. What do they know for instance, about the necessity of removing the county seat of Mower county? And why should they have any voice in the remo- val of it ? Why should not the people of the respective counties have fuU power to do so, if they think a removal proper ? The substi- tute places the matter in the hands of the Legislatiire as it always has been, with the addition that the action of the Legislature shall receive the sanction of a majority of the people. I want it out of the hands of the Legislature entirely, and in the hands of the people entirely. Mr. FOSTER. I am in favor of the sub- stitute, but I will direct my remarks particu- larly to the provisions of the original section in regard to the board of supervisors. In the first place, I agree with the gentleman from Hennepin coimty (Mr. Haydex) in reference to allowing one-third of a body of that kind to have a veto power upon two-thirds of the voters of this county. Again, I believe it is a wrong course to trust the matter in the hands of a board of supervisors atalL They are elected to perform other duties, and ought not to have this matter brought before them. The Legislature is a better body to go to, upon a mere local question, than the board of supervisors. The very fact that they are removed from the influence of local feelings, is in favor of entrusting it to them. Another thing. The section assumes that there is to be a system of government by a board of supervisors, established. That is taken for granted, while I say that it is exceedingly doubtful whether we shall estab- lish that system, or a different one. That matter is still undecided. In Iowa the people had the liberty of selecting thdr own system in the counties. Some counties that had been accustomed to township organizations, had the privilege of voting for the adoption of such a system, while other covmties accus- 34 tomed to a different system, had the privilege of voting for the plan to which they had been accustomed. But this section assumes that we are going to adopt a certain system. The gentleman from Chisago, (Mr. Stax- sabd) objects to the substitute, because he thinks that under its provisions, a few persons might come to the Legislature every year and log-roll — and he is from a log-roUing county — a bill through to take a vote of the people upon this question. If I understand him, he is in favor of our doing nothing at all about it ; the result of which would be to leave the matter open to allow anybody to come to the Leg- islatm-e and log-roll a bill through, without referring the matter to the people at all. Now we need something to prohibit that thing. The people should have the power to change the county seats when they deem that the first location was not a proper one. When our counties shall become more populous, it may be found more convenient to have the county seats changed, and I want the Legislature vested with power to pass a law giving to the people the right to make such changes when they see fit. Mr. BALCOMBE. In order to favor the adoption of the substitute, the gentleman has Jjrought in an issue not properly under dis- cussion at this time — and that is this matter of county or township organization. I am de, cidedly in fevor of the supervisor township system, and decidedly opposed to putting the whole county business into the hands of three or more coimty commissioners. I would let each and every portion of the county have a voice in controlling matters pertaining to the county. It is a matter of very great interest to the people. The gentleman's remarks in reference to leaving this matter imder the control of the Legislature seems to me to prove that we should take it out of their hands entirely. And I say to gentlemen here, who have not bgen members of our Legislature, that this coming to the Le^sla- tture to get county seats removed, is a partic- ular humbug and a sham, and I say it is an interference on the part of the Legislature which should not be tolerated. I have my- self been guilty of favoring the establishment of certain county seats. I acknowledge it. I did it simply because it seemed to be the practice of our Legislature to do so, and I . 266 MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Monday, August 3. was called on to act upon that practice by a portion of my constituents ; and I acted under what I supposed to be the direction of a ma- jority of my constituents, in those particular instances. But at the same time such things are generally done under a log-rolling system, and gentlemen vote upon such a question who know no more about the propriety of it, than if the county were in some European colony. Local measures are made matters of bargain and trade. Votes are obtained for a particular measure by a promise of votes for another particular measure relating to another part of the Territory. One representative knows what the people desire in his particular locality, and if he can get such a measure passed as his people desire, he will vote for anything and everything else to accomplish that end. That is especially the case with new members — and the Legislature is generally made up of a majority of new members. Older members make them believe that they cannot get their little local measures through unless they vote for certain other measm-es. Now I say, if we are going to put this matter into the Constitution at all, we should insert a provision taking the matter out of the hands of the Legislature entirely, and giving it to the people, and to the servants of the , people in their respective coimties. Mr. STANNARD. I would not be under- stood to say that I am in favor of putting this matter wholly into the hands of the Legisla- ture, but I do say that we should have some- thing like permanency in our affairs. I do object to leaving this thing open, so that every session of the Legislature shall be taken up with considering this matter of the location of county seats. I am in favor of leaving this matter with the people, but I am opposed to so leaving it that a few dissatisfied persons in a county, or a few having a town-site they want to improve, shall have it in their power to go the Legislature every year, and log-roll a bill through submitting the question to a vote of the people of the county. I am op- posed to subjecting the people of a coimty to any such hardships. It would require them to turn out every year to vote upon a question which they want settled. Suppose a county seat [is located, and the erection of county buildings commenced, what would be the result if this amendment is adopted ? Would it not stop the erection of those buildings ? Would the people feel like making permanent public improvements ? Certainly not ? I am willing, in all cases, that a majority of the people should be this judge, buf I am opposed to forcing them to vote upon a question of change every year, at the instance of a few persons. Mr. HAYDEN. I was somewhat amused at the remarks of my good friend (Mr. Bal- combe) when he first spoke. He said that if the substitute was adopted, it would put the matter entirely into the hands of the Legis- lature, with some shght exceptions, and that was that it would put it into the hands of the people. Now that is quite an exception, for in fact it would put the matter entirely into the hands of the people for their decision. He speaks of Mower county, the affairs of which the Legislature would not naturally know anything about. But it is natural that the people of Mower county should know whether they desire a change of their county seat or not, and when the question is sub- mitted to a vote of the people, I ask whether they ought not to have the power to decide it ? I am desirous that the matter should be left to the people, and that they should have the entire control of it. Mr. KEMP. I feel some interest in this matter and desire to introduce an amendment to meet my views of the manner in which this matter should be disposed of. Two years ago, by a legislative act, the county seat of Wabashaw County was fixed at Wabashaw ; and that is still the county seat, against the wishes of a large majority of the people. There have been no public improvements made there from the fact that no title has yet been acquired to those lands, and it is possi- ble that no title ever will be acquired. The title may be in litigation ten or twenty years. Under those circumstances it will be impos- sible to continue the county seat there, and to put up proper public buildings. I feel con- fident that the people would remove the county seat immediately upon the ratification of a Constitution containing a provision sim- ilar to the one proposed. It does not however fuUy meet my views, and therefore I propose to amend by striking out all after the word *' designated" in the s«cond line, and insert the following : MINNESOTA CONTENTION DEBATES— Mokdat, August 3. 267 . " By a majority of the qualiiied electors of said county, and a majority of the votes of such qual- ified electors of such county being in favor of such removal, shall have the effect of removing said county seat indapendent of any legislative action." Mr. BALCOMBE. That amendment brings up the question whether the Legislature or the County Commissioners or board of Su- pervisors — whichever it may be — shall pro- vide the time and manner of holding the elec- tions and submitting the question to the peo- ple. I am decidedly in favor of having the County Commissioners or Supervisors pro- vide as to the time, manner, and place of voting upon this subject by the people, instead of going to the Legislature, for their action upon the subject They are better qualified, under all the circumstances, to know the proper time and places, and what the proper manner is in which the people should be called upon to vote upon this matter. I ask gentlemen which would be the best body to determine those matters ? Should it not be determined by the immediate servants of the people ? I say most certainly, it should. Mr, KING. Who believes that we want any better provision than the article as it now stands ? I do not, and consequently I shall vote against the substitute and the • amendment. In the first place it gives to the Supervisors the right to designate the place of the proposed removal, and then it it gives a majority of the people the right to fix the county seat at the place designated by the Supervisors. A fairer proposition we do not want. Mr, BALCOMBE. If the committee vote down the amendment, I will offer an amend- ment to give the power to designate the place to a majority of the Supervisors, as also the manner of holding the elections. The amendment was rejected. The substitute was also rejected, Mr. BALCOMBE. I now move to amend the section so that it shall read as follows : " Skc, 2. No county seat shall be removed until the point to which it is proposed be removed shall be designated by a majority of the board of Su- pervisors of the county, and a majority of the electors of the county voting thereon, shall have voted in favor of the removal of the county seat to the proposed location, in such manner as shall be prescribed by the board of Supervisors." Mr. MANTOR. I hope the amendment will not be adopted, I am unwilling to place in the hands of the Supervisors, or any other dass of men, the right to designate any sin^e point in the county, for a county seat I pre- fer to leave the whole matter to the Legisla- ture, Mr, COLBURN. I move to amend the amendment by inserting after the word " Su- pervisors" wherever it occurs, the words " or Commissioners." My object is to leave the coimties themselves to decide whether they will be governed by a board of Super- visors, or a board of Commissioners. I am not myself in favor of the Supervisor system, and especially am I unvrilling to place such a system upon any county without their con- sent, I think it may be so arranged as to leave each coimty to say what system they will adopt, K that matter, however, is to be decided by us, my impression is that we should adopt a system of county government by Commissioners, rather than by Supervi- sors. TMs report provides that each organ- ized township shall have one Supervisor, and^ those Supervisors are to constitute the county board. Now in the county in which I reside there are twenty-four townships, and the board would consist of twenty-four Super- yisors — a complete legislative body. It would not be possible for them to transact business except vmder the rules of a legislative body. I do not believe the voters of that county de- sire any such system, I am satisfied that they will be opposed to it, and for that reason I am opposed to the amendment. I want it to be put in such a shape, that we can provide hereafter that the counties may have their choice of a system of county government Mr. KING. It is much better to put tiie disposition of the coimty seats into the hands of a board of twenty-foiur, rather than three, because this has become such a speculative age, that you can buy a man as cheap as a mule ; and if you have a board of only three, you have only three mules to buy, which is more easy than to buy twenty-four. The ex- penses of a county is a thing the people are going to look at, and the voting upon the lo- cation of a coimty seat every year is going to cost more than you calculate upon. How much is it going to cost to build a court house and jail ? Let them be built, and then buy up three mules to say that the county seat shall be 268 MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Monday, August 3. removed, and by that time the people will have their eyes open. The section cannot be bettered, if you legislate upon it until next Saturday. Mr. COLBURN. The gentleman must have misunderstood the purport of my amend- ment. It is not that thi'ee county commis- sioners shall have the power to remove the county seat, but that they shall designate the place to which the removal shall be made, and the manner and the place of voting upon that question. I am decidedly opposed to the sec- tion reported by the committee because it enables one-third of the supervisors to con- trol the action of a majority of the people. Or rather, its operation will be to prevent a majority of the people, wishing it, to have any action upon the subject, whatever. I am in favor of the amendment of the gentleman from Winona, if the section is to remain sub- stantially as it is. At all times it might prob- ably be anticipated that one-third out of a board of twenty-four supervisors, would favor the location of the county seat where it is already established, while a majority of the people may desire to remove it, and yet would never have an opportunity, under that system, of expressing that desire. The section ope- rates as a veto power, in advance, on the people. Mr. KEMP. I will read, for information, an amendment I propose to offer, when it is in order, which I think will accomplish that desire. It is to strike out all after the word "designated" and insert — "By a majority of the board of supervisors of the county ; and a majority of the voters of said county, voting in favor of said removal, shall have the effect of removing the county seat as pre- scribed by the board of supervisors." Under such a provision a majority vote of the board of supervisors will place the ques- tion before the people, so that their wishes can be known on the subject. Mr. BALCOMBB. That is the same as my amendment. Mr. KEMP. Not exajctly. The question was then taken on Mr. CoL- bubn's amendment, and it was not agreed to. The amendment ofiFered by Mr. Balcombe was then agreed to. Mr. CLEGHORN. I move to amend the section as it now standi, by inserting after the word " thereon," the words "at the next general election." The object of the amend- ment is to prevent the board of supervisors from putting the county to the expense of a special election on the question of removing the county seat. Mr. STANNARD. If it is absolutely ne- cessary to remove the county seat, the sooner it is done the better. The commissioners or supervisors will have the interest of the county at heart, and they will certainly desig- nate that time, imless the people demand an election at an earlier period. Mr. FOSTER. I think we can safely trust the supervisors to fix the time. Mr. COGGSWELL. I offer the following substitute for the whole section : " Counties already existing, and those which may hereafter be created, are municipal corpora- tions, established for the purpose of the better carrying out those great objects for which all gov- ernments, great or small, powerful or weak, were instituted, to-wit : For the better protection of the people in theii- lives, their libertiei, and their pro- perty ; and not for the purpose of enriching or im- poverishing the inhabitants of any particular locality — and in the establishment or removal of county seats the convenience and wishes of the people of said county should be consulted, and not the pecuniary gain or loss of any particular locality. And in all cases when the inhabitants of any part or portion of any county desire to be disconnected therefrom, and added to any other county, the same shall not be done without first obtaining the consent of a majority of the votes of both counties affected thereby. And the Legisla- ture shall pass such general or special laws, from time to time as will best carry into effect the fore- going principles." I wish simply to say, Mr. Chairman, that we have adopted, I believe, a certain clause in our Bill of Rights, which requires us to go back from time to time to fundamental prin- ciples, and it is a kind of song sung here, to a certain extent, that in framing onr Consti- tution we should lay down certain fundamen- tal principles only, and not undertake to en- ter into the minutia of legislation. And for the purpose of carrying out that idea in regard to coimty seats, their removal, and the dis- memberment of coimties, I have offered the amendment. The amendment was rejected. Sec. 4. The Legislature may organize any city into a separate county when it has attained a pop- ulation of twenty thousand inhabitants, without MINNESOTA CONATiNTION DEBATES— Monday, AracsT 3. 269 reference to geographical extent, when a majority of the electors of a county in which such city may be situated, voting thereon shall be in favor of a separate organization. Cities shall have such representation in the board of supervisors of the cotmties in which they are situated as the Legiala- ttu*e may direct." Mr. COLBUEN. I move to amend section four by striking out all after the word " or- ganization." Mr. FOLSOM. I move to strike out the whole section. Mr. COLBUEN. I accept of that amend- ment in the place of mine. Mr. FOSTER. I am in favor of that amendment. The gentleman who moved the first amendment wanted to stop at the word " organization," and strike out the words " cities shaU have such representation in the "board of supervisors of the counties in which " they are situated, as the Legislature may " direct." Some provision of that kind is prob- ably necessary. A large population may be gathered into one city, and yet they might really constitute but one voting precinct, and consequently would not have a proportional representation in the board of supervisors. Mr. FOLSOM. I do not see any necessity of having such a provision in the Constitution at all. If we do not insert such a clause, the matter will be in the hands of the Legis- lature. Mr. WILSON. I hope we shall have some such provision somewhere. Mr. FOSTER. I would call the gentleman's attention to section five. We can insert that provision there. Mr. WILSON. Section five prescribes that a board of supervisors, consisting of one firom each organized township, shall be estab- lished in each cotmty with such powers as shall be prescribed by law. I think it is un- fair to say that a township having twenty thousand inhabitants shall have a like repre- sentation as a township having a hundred thousand inhabitants. Mr. ALDRICH. In Illinois the cities are divided into townships, each of which elects a supervisor. Chicago is divided into eight or ten townships. That might be done here. The object is to allow the cities to have a representation in the board in proportion to their population. The section was stricken out. "Sec. 5. A board of supervisors, consisting of one from each organized township, shall be estab- lished in each county with such power as shall be prescribed by law." Mr. NORTH. I move to amend section five by adding thereto the words " cities shall "have such representation in the board of "supervisors of the counties in which they "are situated as the Legislattire shall direct" Mr. STANNARD. I would suggest to the gentleman that he should include both cities and incorporated towns. Mr. NORTH. It is necessary to have some provision of this kind because one supervisor from a large city, would not give it a just representation. It has been custom- ary in New York to have one supervisor firom each ward of a city. Mr. STANNARD. But there may be places having a large population, which would not wish a city charter, preferring to remain imder their town charter. I want the amend- ment to include such places. Mr. NORTH. I accept that as a modifi- cation of my amendment. The section thus amended will cover all the groimd that is desired. I hope the three following sections will be stricken out. They define the powers of the board of supervisors — ^a matter which should be left to the Legislattu^. Mr. FOSTER. In looking over the report I cannot find anything which provides how the first precincts are to be made ; by whom, and how the first board of supervisors are to be chosen. Mr. BALCOMBE. The schedule will pro- vide for that. I would inquire of the gentle- man fix>m Rice cotmty, (Mr. Nobth) what effect his amendment wotdd have in one respect. The question arises whether the Legislature at any time when it sees fit here- after, can divide up the cities into a certain number of organized townships, and give each of them a representation on the board of supervisors, or whether it is to be done by a general law ? For instance, a general law which may leave that matter entirely with the board of supervisors of the cotmties in which they are situated? If the effect of the amendment is to leave the matter imcertain, or to leave the Legislatture firee at any time to organize new townships within the city limits, I shotild be opposed to the amendment. I think the Legislature should not have the 270 MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Mondat, August 3. power to interfere with city organizations to that extent. Mr. NORTH. I do not see how we can very well avoid entrusting that matter some- what with the Legislature. The city charters themselves generally provide for the number of wards in each city, and it has been cus- tomary in some States to allow each ward in a city to have a supervisor. Cities are incor- porated with a larger or smaller number of wards, not always in proportion to population, and to lay down a general rule that each ward should have a supervisor, would allow the cities too many in some instances, and too few in others. It is a matter of legislation. If we lay down a general rule, it will surely operate vmequally, and if we leave it with the Legislature, it cannot operate more than un- equally. Mr. ALDRICH. These township organi- zations are something new to me. But I suppose the gentleman from Rice county, coming from New York, knows how the system works. In IlUnois the system is dif- ferent. Chicago, for instance, is entitled to a certain representation in the board, but I do not know whether she is divided into wards or not. She is divided into townships. Mr. McKUNE. In Illinois each town and city has at least one supervisor, and after they reach a population of eight hundred they are entitled to one additional supervisor for each additional eight hundred inhabitants. Mr. ALDRICH. I was about to state that fact. Some townships have half-a-dozen su- pervisors in order to make them equal with other towns in the county. The counties are authorized to adopt a township organization by a majority vote of the people,'and I should think that about one half of the coun- ties of the State have adopted such an organization. The others have not, and are still governed by a board of county com- missioners. The matter is left to them to them to decide, and I think that would be the best course to adopt here. It seems to me that it would be wrong to make a township organization obligatory upon the people, as this section does. It reads — "A board of supervisors, consisting of one from each organized township, shall bo established in each county," — Thus making it binding upon them. I should prefer a general law, by the Legisla- ture, giving to the people of each 'county the privilege of adopting township organizations or not, as they see fit. Mr. BALCOMBE. I am decidedly opposed to the establishment of a mixed system, as suggested by the gentleman from Hennepin county. I want either the one or the other, out and out. Either the precinct and county commissioner system, or the supervisor sys- tem. I think uniformity is desirable. Again, I would suggest an amendment to the phraseology of the section so that it shal read — — "Shall be established with such powers aa shall be prescribed by a general law." I do not know as I can express my idea about this matter fully. I wish to have this matter of representation of cities in the board of supervisors prescribed by a general law, and not subject to the fitful action of each Legislature that assembles. If the language of the amendment proposed conveys the idea that the representation of cities shall depend upon a general law, which shall work the same in reference to one city as another, I am in favor of the amendment. But if it can be construed in such a manner as to allow the Legislature one year to give to St. Paul, for instance, six supervisors, and the next year, through lobby influence, double it up to twelve, when perhaps the inhabitants have not increased in numbers, I am opposed to it, I throw out these suggestions to see whether it is thought by the mover, and others sus- taining this amendment, that the language he employs will apply to all cities equally, and that a general law must be framed by which all shall be governed ; or whether the matter is subject to special legislation, Mr. NORTH. I said before that I was entirely willing to leave the matter to special legislation, and I think tlie clause I propose leaves it with the Legislature to act either by general or special laws. Mr. BALCOMBE. Well I am opposed to leaving in in that way. The amendment offered by Mr. North was then adopted. Mr. OOLBURN, I now move to strike out section five, as amended. It does seem to mo that the remarks of the gentleman from MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Monday, August 3. 271 Hennepin county (Mr. Aldbich,) are very just, in reference to leaving it to the people of each coiuity to determine their kind of county government; and the gentleman from TTinona (Mr. Balcombe,) gave no reason why he did not approve of that He simply stated that he was opposed to any mixed system. It is a fact that in some of the counties, a majority of the voters are New England people, who are unaccustomed to this system of township supervisorship ; and since they came here, they have been tmder a system of commissioners, as they were in New England. I am satisfied that this revolution in the system of county government, which this section proposes to make, would be distasteful to the people of those coimties. It may be, that in other counties, a majority of the people may be from the "Western States, where the system of supervisorship has been generally adopted. In those counties, they would imdoubtedly be in favor of that system. I do think the pro- posed system would be repugnant to the class of counties I first mentioned. In the course of time they might choose that system; but at the present time they would not, and I think it seriously objectionable to compel them to adopt it. It seems to me that a section might be introduced here providing that the counties might select between the two sys- tems. And I believe further, that in every county, the whole people of that county should have an equal voice in the election of the men who are to govern the county. Under this super- visorship system, they might unite several townships into one. In one section of the county perhaps five or six townships may be united and they have a population of not more than five hundred persons ; in another section, two towns may be vmited, and they have a population of one thousand ; and yet, if this system is adopted, a small township of five hundred inhabitants has as much power, as one with one thousand inhabitants or more. Now these one thousand people pay more taxes than the five hundred, and yet the su- pervisor of the small township has the same voice in expending the fund, as the one who represents a larger amount of tax- payers. It seems to me impossible to regulate that sys- tem so as to make it equal and just to all the peoplf of the county. If the supervisor sys- tem is to be adopted, I think they should all be voted for upon a general ticket, and by the whole county. But the more serious difficulty of deciding upon and arranging that system now, is, that the counties are not prepared for such a change. I prefer to have the whole matter stricken out, rather than do that. I would permit the present commissioner sys- tem to prevail imtil it is changed by the Leg. islatxire. Mr. FOLSOM. I move to atnend by stri- king out aU after the third section, and insert- ing the following : " Sec. 3. The Legislature shall, at its first ses- sion after the adoption of this Constitution, pro- vide for the establishing of county and township organizations." Mr. LOWE. I hope that amendment will prevail. I have listened to this discussion with considerable interest, and have been en- deavoring to make up my mind upon this matter ; but it seems to me that we are get-* ting into deep water, upon a difficult question. The trouble is that the subject matter pro- perly belongs to a Legislative Assembly, rath- er than to a Constitutional Convention. I feel myself incompetent to decide upon the various points proposed, and I do not think I should be called upon to decide here. The substitute oflFered by my colleague is all I ought to be called to vote upon, and I hope I shall not be compelled to vote upon these va- rious mooted points — mooted even in this Convention. The suggestions oflFered by the gentleman from Hennepin county seemed to me valuable and weighty, and they ought to be considered. This system should be matured, if we are going to adopt it. Mr. FOLSOM. My motion was to strike out aU after section three. Mr. COLBURN. As that meets my views, I withdraw my amendment. Mr. FOLSOM. If the motion is agreed to the effect will be to throw us back upon our present system of government, until the Leg- islature shall provide a system of future gov- ernment. I think our election for officers this fall will have to be held under the present Territorial laws. In the first place, we do not know as the Constitution wiU be ratified by the people ; and if it is not, we shall stand just as we do now. It leaves our present system of government to stand imtil the Leg- islature provides for a change. 272 MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Monday, Auqitst 3. Mr. SECOMBE. I am in favor of the mo- tion of the gentleman from Chisago (Mr. Fol- soM,) to a certain extent, but I am not to the full extent to which it goes. I am opposed to a system of County Commissioners, and equally opposed to the system of a Board of Supervisors. The gentleman from FUlmore county (Mr. Colburn,) stated that the County Commissioner system was a New England system. I do not so understand it. In New Hampshire, which is the native State of that gentleman, as well as myself, the system has been a township system, wherein there were elected officers called select-men, and the whole affairs of the town were conducted by those se- lect-men. There were no county officers that had anything to do with the local affairs of the several towns ; and formerly whatever coimty affairs there were to be attended to — such as paying the expenses of the courts and the ex- penses of the coimty poor— were performed by what were called side-judges — two coimty judges to be elected in each county to sit by the side of the presiding judge. They had no duties to perform there, and they attended to such county affairs as were strictly such. Now that was a system I was in favor of; and I would have in this State, township organiza- tions, and have the local affairs of the town- ships conducted solely by the townsliips themselves. I would have officers elected in each township — call them commissioners, se- lect-men, or any other name — to perform the business pertaining to each township. I would have the roads and highway of each township, constructed by itself. I would have the poor which belong to each township, supported by that township. Then it would be necessary, of course, to have some officers to transact the business of the county — ^busi- ness which properly belongs to the whole county, such as providing for the payment of the expenses of holding courts, the expenses of county officers, and other matters of gen- eral interest throughout the county. Now while I am in favor of leaving that matter with the Legislature, I am not in favor of striking out section nine of this report, which provides for county officers. Section nine is as follows : " Skc. 9. In each organized county there shall be a Sheriff, a County Clerk, a County Treasurer, a Register of Deeds, a Prosecuting Attorney, a Su- perintendent of Common Schools, a County Sur- veyor, and a Coroner, chosen by the electors there- of once in two years, and as often as vacancies shall happen, whose powers and duties shall be prescribed by law. The Board of Supervisors in any county may unite the oflBces of County Clerk and Register of Deeds in one office or disconnect the same." Those are offices that will be required, whatever subdivisions may be made of each county ; and if it is the effect of this amend- ment to exclude the idea of specifying what county officers there shall be, I shall be op- posed to it. Mr. COLBURN. I was probably mistaken in regard to the New England system pre- vailing in New Hampshire. I understand the gentleman is in favor of the New Hampshire system! Now I ask him if he is in favor of electing two dmmny judges to sit by the side of the presiding judge ? Mr. SECOMBE. I am not ; but I am in favor of some county board to attend to af- fairs common to the whole county. Mr. COLBURN. I am in favor of that system of township organization which ex- ists in Massachusetts, and in most of the New England States. There are some vari- ations as to county government, but in no case have they a board of Supervisors con- stituted as this report proposes to constitute them. Mr. POLSOM. I do not see any necessity for retaining section nine in the report. Our present Territorial laws will be in force until this Constitution is adopted ; and in the sched- ule we shall probably insert a clause providing that all laws of the Territory of Minnesota not repugnant to this Constitution shall re- main in force until repealed. Then the Legis- lature can provide for these county officers, and I see no necessity for inserting it here. Mr. HAYDEN. I am opposed to striking out the ninth section. I heartily agree with my friend from Hennepin, (Mr. Secombe) in almost all he has said. I am a true born Yankee, and have not lost all the Yankee yet. I believe there are many things in the town- ship organizations of New England, prefera- ble to any other system I have any knowledge of. I think it important that there should be a clause in the Constitution prescribing what county officers should be elected. And fur- ther than that, I would have, instead of a MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Monday, August 3. 273 board of Supervisors,'a board of county Com- missioners, whose duty it should be to attend to such business as the side judges performed in New Hampshire. It would save a great deal of expense in many ways, to have such a board of Commissioners. The question was taken on Mr. Folsoji's amendmsnt, and it was agreed to; and then on motion of Mr. Thompson, the committee rose and reported the article as amended to the Convention, with a recommendation that the amendments be concmred in. On motion of Mr. CLEGHORN, (at twelve o'clock) the Convention took a recess until half past two o'clock. AFTERNOON SESSION. The Convention resmned its session M half past two o'clock. COUNTY AND TOWNSHIP ORGANIZATIONS. The Convention resumed the consideration of the report upon the county and township organizations, the pending question being on concurring in the amendments recommended by the committee of the "Whole. Mr. COLBURN. I would enquire if it would be in order at this time to offer a sub- stitute for the whole report ? The PRESIDENT. In the opinion of the Chair it would be. Mr. COLBURX. I then offer the follow- ing substitute for the whole report : " The Legislature, at the first session, shall pro- vide by law for county and township organizations; and every county or township when organized shall be a body corporate, and all suits for or against such county or township, shall be in the name thereof." My object in offering this substitute is to get rid of this system of legislation on the subject, in the Constitution. A question, al- so, has arisen in this debate upon which a great diversity of opinion prevails among the members of this Convention, and in regard to which there will be a great diversity of views anlong the people. Now I prefer, for that reason, if for no other, that it should be left to the Legislature, rather than settle it in this Constitution. Mr. GALBRAITH. I do not object to the substitute to the whole report, as far as it goes. But there are things contained in this report which are not legislative at all, and I do hope to see a part of this report, at least, 35 adopted. This matter of establishing new counties is a source of the deepest corruption in this Territory. The same has been true, to a greater or less extent, in all the States, and the older States are constantly amending their Constitutions in that particular. The object of those amendments is to put an end to this interminable manufacturing of new counties. Every man in the Territory who builds up a new town expects that there is to be a new coimty to surround it ; and the past history "of our Legislature will bear one out in saying, that it has been literally infested every session by a set of men crying out for new coimties. Every general bill for the gen- eral welfare of the Territory has had, hitched to it, from half a dozen to a dozen bills for new coimties. Members' constituents im- portime them for new counties, and represen- tatives are tied up to a log-rolling system which they cannot break away from without offend- ing their constituents. Every man knows that that lobby has been crowded by men affected with a perfect itching for new counties, and the cry continually is " give" " give." The new States, and the older Sta^s, have come to the conclusion that there is no greater som"ce of corruption in legislation than this forming of new counties. Now it is not legislation to stop that matter here in the Constitu- tion, and declare that it shall not be done without the consent of the people. As our laws are at present, the Legislature can manu- facture new counties at pleasure. Take this Territory now, as a general thing, it is cut up into little pea patches, which have no influence one way or the other. I hope the provisions of this section will not all be strick- en out. I have an amendment which I wish to offer as an additional section to the pro- posed substitute, and I hope it will be accep- ted by the mover. It is as follows : " No county shall be divided by a line cutting off more than one tenth of the population, either to form a new county or otherwise, without the ex- press consent of such county, by a vote of the electors thereof; nor shall any new county be es- tabUshed containing less than four hundred square miles." Mr. COLBURN. I do not accept it as a part of my substitute, not so much that I am opposed to it, as that I fear if it is attached to the substitute it will kill the substitute itself For that reason I shall have to vote 2r4 MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Monday, August 3. against it, as an amendment to the substitute, but after the substitnte is adopted, I will vote for the amendment. Mr. GALBRAITH. The reason why I urge this amendment is, that the amendment of the gentlemen from Chisago (Mr. Folsom) which was adopted in committee of the Whole, is not sufficiently definite. There are cases where the representatives of two coun- ties in the Legislature might agree that a certain portion of one county should be cut off and attached to another county for the mutual convenience of each. But my amend- ment provides that not more than one-tenth of the population of any county shall be cut off without the assent of the county. It may be convenient in some cases, where a small strip is desired to be taken from one county and attached to another, to allow the Legisla- ture to do it, if the representatives of the respective counties agree to it, but that right should not be extended to any considerable portion of the county. It is no more than fair that the people should decide such mat- ters for themselves. It allows a sufficient margin to the Legislature for straightening lines, when the inhabitants petition for it. In such cases there is no necessity for a vote of the people, because in many cases the land might not be worth the expenses of an elec- tion. The plan I have proposed has been adopted in some of the older States. Again, as to the matter of limiting the size of our counties. It is the general idea, that counties should not be formed below a certain size. Twelve townships would be four hun- dred and thirty-two square miles. I think that is sufficiently small. This interminable making of small counties by the Legislature, is injurious to the people, and the Legislature should not be allowed to do it. We all know that a county was organized last winter, which was not large enough for a good sized ferm. Do you suppose that that bill passed by any fair means? Not at all. Shall our State be cut up into small portions, and the people subjected to pay immense taxes for the gratification of a few individuals ? It is usual now, in framing Constitutions, to put some restrictions upon the Legislature in making new counties. Such a restriction would be a blessing to the Legiskture. It would prevent their being dragged around and button-holed by a set of men, importun- ing them to make new counties for their benefit. And at home, too, it would remove that bitterness of feeling which would not otherwise exist. The constant agitation of the removal of county seats has a bad effect upon our county organizations. I know that in my own county — the smallest one in the Territory except one — men hving in one corner of the county have actually refused to pay their taxes, simply out of this personal local feeling. Now this local feeling would never arise, if the Constitution should throw a guard around this thing. I hope we shall so act here as to prevent a recurrence of those unfortunate and disgraceful affairs which have disgraced, not only the Legislature of the Territory of Minnesota, but of other States and Territories. Remove this subject as far as possible from the Legislature, and do not allow our legislators to be driven into a system of log-rolling to carry through bills* for the organization of counties, which have no merit in them whatever. Whenever it is necessary to cut up a county, the people wiU say so. Mr. COLBURN. I have no objection to the amendment, if offered by itself. The object of my substitute was simply to get rid of those provisions upon which there was so much discussion, and such diversity of opinion this forenoon. That was as to the mode of government and control of counties. If the gentleman will withdraw his amend- ment, and allow the vote to be first taken upon my substitute, and then offer his substitute, I will vote for it. Mr, WILSON. I hope the gentleman will look carefully at this substitute. It will leave us at sea, just as we were before, at the mercy of town site makers. We know how they have done heretofore, and I hope we shall legislate for the future with the past in our minds. Mr. COLBURN. The gentleman will bear in mind that an amendment is to be offered to fix that thing. Mr. WILSON. The amendment of the gentleman from iScott county (Mr. Gai,- BBAiTii) docs not come up to near what I want. Mr. GALBRAITH. I wiU withhold my amendment for the present. MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Mokday, August 3. 275 Mr. SECOMBE. I hope the substitute will prevail, but only for the purpose of get- ting a chance to offer an additional section which will, perhaps, meet gentlemen's wishes. The substitute was then adopted. Mr. GALBRAITH. I now offer the fol- lowing as an additional section : "No county shall be divided by a line cutting ofi more than one-tenth of the population, either to form a new county or otherwise, without the express consent of such county, by a rote of the electors thereof; nor shall any new county be established containing less than four hundred square miles." Mr. SECOMBE. I am opposed to the sec- tion proposed to be added by the gentleman from Scott county. I am satisfied thai; we cannot fix any arbitrary rule upon this sub- ject, that will be just and equitable. The gentleman from Scott county referred to the provisions of other States. The condition of things in those States is vastly difiFerent from what it is in the Territory of Minnesota at the present time. It is well known that the leg- islation heretofore had in our Territory upon this subject, has been legislation for specula- tors, and for particular town sites ; that coun- ties ^>ave been formed, not with reference to what will be for the general good hereafter, but with reference to what was the general or particular good at the time those coimties were formed. "We have been launched upon a sea of legislation, which has already left our counties in a very poor shape. I am satisfied that the principle the gentleman contends for, although it would answer very well to suit, perhaps, the majority of voters in the county the gentleman comes from, will, according to his own admission, merely prevent a minority of the people in his or any other coimty from any longer grumbling or trying to help them- selves. A portion of the citizens in the county of Scott, which I believe in size is next to the smallest in the whole Territory, together with portions of the citizens of other counties cor- nering into that, have been besetting the Leg- islature, for two years, to form anew coimty ; and in the course of proceedings, various propositions have been made. It has been proposed on the one side that the county of Jefferson — the county desired to be formed — should be established, subject to a vote to be taken by the votes of the county of Scott and the other counties from which the proposed county of Jefferson was to be carved out ; and if a majority of the voters in all those counties shovdd be in favor of it, the new county of Jefferson should be erected. On the other hand, it has been proposed by the friends of Jefferson county, that a vote should be taken of that portion of those counties which it was desired should be erected into the new county of Jefferson ; and if a major- ity of those people were in favor of the estab- lishment of that new county, it should be erected. Now neither of those plans is just or equitable. A majority of the inhabitants of Scott and the other counties are opposed to cutting off any portion of tiieir counties, and they would vote against it. Consequent- ly, under the rule of action proposed by the gentleman, the new county could not be es- tablished. On the other hand, the voters in the proposed county of Jefferson would vote by a large majority that the county should be established. If that rule prevails, the major- ity of the voters of all the counties might lose their property against their wUl. And yet, I can conceive of cases where it would be ne- cessary, in all justness, fiiirness, and equity, that the county of Jefferson, or some other county in like circmnstances, should be erect- ed in opposition even to the will of a majority of the counties from which it is proposed to be taken. I alluded, this morning, to the present con-.. dition of the county of Ramsey, a portion of which is separated from it entirely by two in- tervening counties. Nobody would say but what it was just and eqmtable that that p<)r- tion situated a hundred and fifty miles away from the other portion, should be erected into a county by itself. But if we give to the whole people of the county the power to re- fuse to make it such, there is no safety to the rights of the minority of the county living that distance away. Therefore, I am of opinion that it is impos- sible to adopt a rule that in all cases will be an equitable rule ; and, consequently, I am opposed to the amendment, and I am opposed to inserting anything into the Constitution upon that subject. The question was then taken, and the addi- tional section was not agreed to. Mr. SECOMBE submitted the following, as an additional section : 276 MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Monday, August 8. "No County Seat shall be established or re- moved, except by the vote of a majority of the legal voters of the county, which vote shall be taken in such manner as shall be prescribed by a general law." The amendment was agreed to. Mr. GALBRAITH. I now offer as an ad- ditional section, the amendment which was adopted in Committee of the Whole this morn- ing, viz : " No organized county shall be divided or have any part stricken therefrom without submitting the question to a vote of the electors of the county or counties to be directly affected or dismembered — and unless a majority of all the votes cast shall be in favor of the same." Mr. VAUGHN. I offer the foUowing as a substitute for the additional section : "No new county shall be formed or established by the Legislature of a less area than four hundred square miles without submitting the question to a vote of the electors of the county or counties to be affected thereby. Nor shall any organized county be dismembered unless a majority of the legal voters of such dismembered portion shall approve the same." Mr. GALBRAITH. Establish such a rule as that and you put it in the power of every heartless speculator, seeking to build up a pa- per town site, to come into the Halls of the Legislature, for the purpose of getting a new county. Say that the dismembered territory shall vote, and any paper town can vote, and decide that it shall be a new county, and be the county seat. It is ridiculous upon the face of it — simply ridiculous. Now a county is a municipal organization, and the people liv- ing in it have a perfect control over it, and it would be just as proper to say that the people living in South Carolina may go out of the Union upon voting to do so, as to say that the people living within a particular portion of a county, may go out of that county at their own will and pleasure, by voting to do so against the will of the whole county. A county is created for the benefit of the whole people of that county, and without the assent of a majority of the whola people, a county never should be dismembered and cut up into atoms to suit the whims of a few men, and to put money into this and that man's pocket. Sir, the history of the past shows that it is time that we should put such a provision as I have proposed into our Constitution, and stop this log-rolling all over the country. This legislation about counties has been a nuisance to the whole Territory,- and many States have been driven, from stern necessity, to put pro- visions into their Constitutions prohibiting this thing of coming to the Legislature to get new counties organized, for the purpose of enabling this or that man to sell their town sites. Have not we had experience enough in this matter already ? I do not refer to my own covmty particularly. Troubles exist there yet. But do not troubles exist in other counties ? Is there not a perfect mania for making new counties through the whole Ter- ritory ? As long as the power is in the Leg- islature, men will beset them for the estab- lishment of new counties. It wiU be in the future as it has been in the past, and you can hardly pass in the Legislature a bill for any general object, but there will be tacked to it bills establishing new counties, or establishing county seats at places never dreamed or heard of before. It has been done, and I have seen it done. Now is it not well to put a stop to ■such things, while we hare it in our power ? But there should be a limit to the cutting up of counties. Small counties must have as good public buildings, the same oflBces and the same machinery that large counties have, and it costs as ^much to maintain a county organization. As a financial question, then, it is no more than proper that this Constitu- tional Convention should take the precedents established by the older States which have taken this matter into consideration, and put some restraint upon the Legislature in regard to the manufacture of new counties. The Legislatvu-e of this Territory, following in the footsteps of the Legislatures of some of the States, has become a machine for the manu- facture of new counties — a patent right ma- chine. Get up a bill in the Legislature on a matter which interests the whole people, and the first you know it is covered all over with bills for the establishment of new counties, and you cannot pass it without passing at the same time those incumbrances. Wtiy then will we stand here and vote down every proposition to guard the rights of the people in this matter. A majority of the people all over the Territory are opposed to cutting up and dismembering their counties. Put it to a vote to-day, and I say that r.inety- nine out of a hundred of the people would MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Mokdat, August 3. 27'r vote in favor of such a restriction, and only the interest of those paper town sites would be opposed to it. Wherever there is a neces- sity for erecting a new county out of a large one, the people of the county will approve of it. But if a majority of the people, whose property it is, do not see fit to part with it, who will say that they shall. A majority should rule in this matter as in all others. If any gentleman has any proposition which will more effectually remedy this wrong, I will vote for it. Mr. NORTH. I would Uke to make a proposition, and that is to leave the whole matter to the Legislature, and I am more sat- isfied now that that is the proper covu-se than I was before the matter was discussed. I wondered for some time how I should explain the enthusiasm of the gentlemen from Scott county, but I happened to remember Jeflfer- son county, and all my trouble vanished. "VV e ought to remember that we are not ma- king a Constitution for Scott county alone. JeflFerson county is not the only coimty which should be guarded against in this State, and the difficulty is to adopt a rule that shall work well in all cases. While the gentleman has a case which touches his interests and feelings, making him so earnest upon this sub- ject, we have, or had, in our coimty, a case which operated in the other direction, and if we had had a Constitution in our way con- taining a provision of this kind, we should never have been relieved vmtil the Constitu- tion was changed. It would have subjected us to great inconvenience — and I do not con- sider a town of six hundred inhabitants ex- actly a town on paper. There are necessities which arise for changing coimty lines, which accrue fi:om injustice done in carving out counties, and it becomes the interest of all to have the change made. There was a mutual wish^^of some living along the line of Dako- tah and Goodhue, to have a change of lines. But let Goodhue vote upon a proposition to give up a part of her Territory, and she would vote against it every time ; and so would Da- kotah county. And there never can be a change of lines under such a provision as is proposed by the gentleman fi-om Scott county. No general rule can be established which will guard perfectly every man's rights, or every countiy's rights, and I know of no safer way than to leave it to the sound discretion of the Legislature. That is the course pursued in the great State of New York, and in many other eastern States, and no evil results from it. Those matters have settled down into a quiet condition, and when a necessity arises for a new county, they make it, subserving convenience, and doing no evil. I know of no better method for us to pursue. But if we are to establish a rule, do not let us adopt one which wiU leave the people of one county to control the people of both counties in a matter which the other county should have an equal voice in settling. Mr. GALBRAITH. Some gentlemen ap- pear very sensitive about matters. I am in favor of this proposition from principle, with- out any reference whatever to any particular locality. Scott county can take care of her- self. That is all I have to say about that. I am interested in that matter, and I have an- nounced my opinion so often, that every gen- tleman understands it. I beUeve that a provision of this kind is for the general good. Take the Constitutions of different States which have recently been established, and gentlemen will see that they put limits upon the power of the Legislature in this matter. Pennsylvania for a time had no provision in her Constitution upon this subject, and the matter got to such a pass that no bill could pass the Legislature, be- cause some new county scheme defeated it. Hence the people petitioned for a change, and last winter they amended their Constitution by just such a provision as I have offered. I look upon it as a sound rule of policy, that this matter should have guards thrown around it in some way. Leave it to the sound dis- cretion of the Legislature! You have had experience of that course already, and you know how it works, and the experience of the State has not been different from ours. The Legislature are not left to their sound discretion. They have their public bills which they wish to carry through, but it is impossible to do it, when twenty or thirty men stand out and say they will not vote for them unless they put their county bills through. That condition is made a sine qua non to the passage of public bills. Can we not put a stop to that ? I urge it not because I am a representative of Scott county. There 278 MINNESOTA CONVENTION DEBATES— Monday, August 3. are a number of other counties now interested in this matter — Fillmore county among the rest — and unless we now adopt some provis- ion in regard to this subject, our future State will be forced to it at some future time. One gentleman says our counties are left in a bad position now. Well if we allow it to go on when shall we cure the evil ? Is not this the time to cure it ? Mr. COGGSWELL moved that the Con- vention adjourn. The motion was not agreed to. Mr. NORTH. I want to quote one of the provisions of another State, to which the gen- tleman from Scott county has referred. It is satisfactory to me entirely. The Constitu- tion of Illinois provides — " There shall be no Territory stricken from any county unless a majority of the voters living in such Territory shall petition for such a division ; and no Territory shall be added to any county without the consent of a majority of the voters of the county to which it is proposed to be added." Mr. "WILSON. Let me inform the gentle- man from Rice county that the Constitution of Iowa, framed last spring, has a section detinite and pointed upon that subject. A VOICE. It has not been adopted. Mr. WILSON. I know it has not, but there is no dDubt but that it will be. It shows, at any rate, the feeling of the people of that State upon the subject. Mr. COLBURN. I hope this amendment, as an additional section, will not be adopted by this Convention, and I need oiFer no other reason than that given by the gentleman from Scott county himself Adopt the amendment and you immediately array a large portion of the people of this Territory against the Con- stitution. Why ? Because there are a large number of people in this Territory who want new counties created. The gentleman has referred to Fillmore county. I do not doubt that there are a large number of people in Fillmore county who desire that the west part of the county should be set off as a new county with the east part of Mower county. Now let this proposition be adopted and you array the balance of the citizens of Fillmore county against the Con- stitution, because they will be deprived of their just rights in that matter. They will be dismembered by a portion of their county being taken off, which helps to pay the taxes of that county, and that too without their having any voice in the matter, whatever. It will operate in the same way in other portions of the Territory. On the other hand, adopt the amendment of the gentleman from Scott county, and you will array against the Constitution, that portion of the people living in the west part of Fillmore county, and the east part of Mower county. You cannot adopt either proposition without that conse- quence following. The people feel deeply upon this subject, as deeply as the gentleman from Scott county who oifei'ed one of the pending amendments. I want to avoid com- ing in conflict with that feeling. If this mat- ter is to be decided upon its merits, let it be decided by the Legislature, and not by a Con- stitutional Convention. If representatives from Fillmore county come into the Legisla- ture, they wUl be arrayed against each other upon that question, and both sides will be discussed, and then if the Legislature, after hearing both sides of the argument, see fit to create a new county, let it be done. It is said that bills will be log-rolled through. You cannot prevent that by any thing you may put into the Constitution. If you pre- vent it upon this matter, you leave other mat- ters open. Every Legislative body is affected with that failing more or less; This traffick- ing for votes in legislative bodies is conunon, and customary, but because it is customary, is it any reason why we should insert such a provision in the Constitution ? I trust that both the amendment and substitute will be voted down. The question was then taken on Mr. Vaughn's substitute, and it was rejected. The question recun'ed on Mr. GALBRAiTn,s amendment. Mr. WILSON. This amendment was adopted in committee this morning, but I am afraid I see a change in the votes from what they were in the morning, but I cannot see why. Who has not noticed the action of the Legislature upon this subject ? Sitting in my otficc at home last winter, it was amusing to hear the schemes which were laid, and the arrangements which were made to got certain matters of this kind throu