s 
 
Columbia ^nibergitp 
 
 intijeCitpofi^EtDgorfe 
 
 LIBRARY 
 
 GIVEN BY 
 
 V\ , vAKAJ^'-a^o orruJUU 
 
A 
 RELATION 
 
 OF 
 
 THE CON FERENC E 
 
 BETWEEN 
 
 WILLIAM LAUD, 
 
 LATE 
 LORD ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY, 
 
 1 
 
 AND 
 
 ME. FISHER THE JESUIT, 
 BY THE COMMAND OF KING JAMES, 
 
 OF EVER BLESSED MEMORY. 
 WITH 
 
 AN ANSWER 
 
 TO SUCH EXCEPTIONS AS A. C. TAKES AGAINST IT. 
 
 OXFORD, 
 
 AT THE UNIVERSITY PRESS. 
 
 MDCCCXXXJX. 
 
 I 
 
 / 5 3 '' 
 

 ,15 7 
 
T* 11 E F A C E 
 
 TO 
 
 THE EDITION OF 1839 
 
 A SHORT narrative of the circumstances which 
 occasioned and accompanied this conference will 
 be desirable for the general reader. 
 
 /King James the First exposed himself during the 
 whole of his reign to much observation on the part 
 of the people in general, and to repeated complaints on 
 the part of his parliaments, for the forbearance and 
 clemency that he exercised towards his Roman catholic 
 subjects. From the commencement of his reign, when 
 he signified that he felt himself under personal ^obli- 
 gation to the pontiff, to the last year of it, when he 
 received from the two houses of jjarliament " a '^sting- 
 ing petition against the papists," whether he was em- 
 
 " Wilkins, Concilia, vol. iv. p. 377. " We acknowledge our- 
 selves personally so much beholding to the now bishop of Rome 
 [Clement VIII.] for his kind offices and private temporal carriage 
 towards us in many things." Conip. Rushworth, vol. i, p. 166. 
 Hallam, Const. Hist. vol. i. p. 437, note. 
 
 ^ Rush worth, vol. i, p. 140. 
 
 a 2 
 
IV 
 
 PREFACE TO 
 
 ployed in tliwarting the designs of the pnritans, or 
 neo-ociatino- for the marriage of his son witli the infanta 
 of Spain, he continnally kept alive suspicions of his 
 Romish tendencies, which neither his frequent pro- 
 fessions of neutrality, nor his learned treatises against 
 the usurpations and corruptions of popery, were suffi- 
 cient to overcome. Whatever might be the specu- 
 lative opinions of the king, it is clear that the character 
 of his mind, and the principles of his government, civil 
 and ecclesiastical, were in accordance with the genuine 
 spirit of the Vatican ; and it was natural for his subjects 
 to suppose that if he could have obtained full security 
 for the acknowledgment of his supremacy as a sove- 
 reign, he would willingly have surrendered many of the 
 theological points at issue, in order to a readmission 
 into the Romish communioif. 
 
 Now had circumstances been much less ftivourable to 
 the Romanists, their wily policy would still have found 
 materials and opportunities for converting them to their 
 own advantage; but at a time when the powerful appeals, 
 that they could make to the fears and imaginations of 
 their hearers, had the ai)pearance of being more reason- 
 able from the utter want of unity among the protestants, 
 and were actually more attractive, owing to the alleged 
 favour of the court, they disregarded the severe penal- 
 ties of the laws, and proclaimed openly the greater 
 security of their profession of faith, and the rapid 
 increase of their numbers. The king indeed still 
 denounced, as crimes against the state, such offences as 
 exercising the functions of a Romish priest, seducing 
 his subjects from the religion established, and scandal- 
 izing his actual government ; l)ut his real intentions 
 were interpreted much more from his acts of forbear- 
 ance than from his threats of punishment, and in order 
 
THE EDITION OF 1839. v 
 
 to make his views in this respect clearly understood, 
 his protestant subjects were told that they had no right 
 " to <" argue ' a concrete ad abstractum,' or to infer that 
 he countenanced the Romish religion, because he con- 
 ferred favours on the jiapists." 
 
 Amonir the emissaries whom the Romanists em- 
 ployed at this time in England, one of the most active 
 and intelligent was a Jesuit of the name of Piersey, 
 who has been better known under the assumed appella- 
 tion of Fisher ^^ He had obtained admission to the 
 countess, mother of Villiers, who was afterwards duke 
 of Buckingham, and had made some progress in con- 
 verting her to the Romish faith, in the hope that 
 through the influence of her son, she might be able to 
 obtain further indulgences from the court in favour of the 
 Roman catholics. The duke of Buckingham, anxious 
 that justice should be done to the whole of the im- 
 portant argument, requested Dr. Francis White % who 
 had obtained a reputation, from his sermons preached at 
 St. Paul's, for skill in the Romish controversy, to meet 
 the Jesuit, and maintain the cause of protestantism, in 
 the presence of the countess, the lord keeper Williams, 
 and himself. An occurrence of so much interest, con- 
 
 c See a letter of the lord keeper Williams in the Cabala, p. 294. 
 
 d He was a native of Yorkshire, and after having studied at 
 Rome and Louvain, became a Jesuit in the year 1594. He soon 
 afterwards employed himself in England in making proselytes, 
 and was convicted and banished. He returned, however, as soon 
 as he found that it could be done safely, in the reign of James I., 
 and is said to have died at the end of the year 1641. Biblioth. 
 Script. Societ. Jes. p. 263. Ed. Antv. 1643. 
 
 e Dr. F. White, rector of St. Peter's, Cornhill, and chaplain to 
 the king, became dean of Carlisle in 1622 ; bishop of Carlisle in 
 1626; bishop of Norwich in 1628; and bishop of Ely in 163 1. 
 He died in February, 1637. 
 
 a 3 
 
vi PREFACE TO 
 
 nected so directly with the person of the favourite, was 
 soon communicated to the king ; and a second con- 
 ference w^as accordingly arranged, at which the king 
 himself was present, and many particular questions of 
 theology were discussed. 
 
 But there were two important points in which neither 
 the king nor the countess was satisfied with the manag-e- 
 ment of this conference. The king observed, that Fisher 
 had been skilful, and not altogether unsuccessful, in 
 replying to his o])ponent ; but had not in the same 
 degree established, by positive ])roof, any propositions of 
 his own. The countess complained that nothing had 
 been said respecting the claim which the Romanists 
 make to a visible and infallible church ; a claim which 
 she seemed to consider as necessary for the existence of 
 a church, and which, in weak and wavering minds, has 
 ever inspired a feeling in favour of the communion of 
 Rome. For this latter purpose it was determined that 
 a third conference should be held ; and Dr. Laud, then 
 bishop of St. David's, who was distinguished for his 
 theological learning, and had recently given the king 
 evidence of his great skill in composition, was appointed 
 to conduct the argument on the side of protestantism. 
 To satisfy also the mind of the king as to the capacity 
 of the Romanists for positive proof, he proposed nine 
 (luestions to the Jesuit, on which he required to have 
 distinct and categorical answers, ja-efacing them with 
 this strong inducement, that " he desired satisfoction on 
 some of the princi]ial })oints, which withheld him from 
 joining unto the church of Rome." 
 
 On the 24th of May, 1622, the third conference took 
 place, between bishoi) Laud on the one i)art, and Fisher 
 on the other, in the i)resence of the same royal and 
 noble personages, and with the addition of others, and 
 
THE EDITION OF 1839. vii 
 
 more especially of the lord keeper Williams, who occa- 
 sionally took part in the discussion. 
 
 The bishop states in his preface that he had " no 
 instruction at all what should be the ground of this 
 third conference, nor the full time of four and twenty 
 hours to bethink himself;" and this is in accordance 
 with the entries *^ which he made at the same time in 
 his private diary. But it is also clear from the same 
 authority, that he was acquainted with the earlier part 
 of the discussion, and in some degree a party concerned 
 in it, as it was going on ; and there can be little doubt 
 as to his perfect and ready knowledge of the whole 
 subject matter of the controversy. 
 
 It appears that no notes were taken at the time by 
 Dr. White, of the two first conferences, and that after- 
 
 f The following are the entries made in his diary in connection 
 with this conference. 
 
 1622. April 23. Being the Tuesday in Easter week, the king sent 
 for nie, and set me into a course about the countess of Buck- 
 ingham, who about that time was wavering in point of 
 religion. 
 
 April 24. Dr. Francis White and I met about this. 
 
 May 10. I went to the court to Greenwich, and came back in 
 coach with the lord marquess Buckingham. My promise then 
 to give his lordship the discourse he spake to me for. 
 
 IMay 19. I delivered my lord marquess Buckingham the paper 
 concerning the difference between the church of England and 
 Rome, in point of salvation, &c. 
 
 May 23. ]My first speech with the countess of Buckingham. 
 
 May 24. The conference between Mr. Fisher, a Jesuit, and 
 myself, before the lord marquess Buckingham, and the 
 countess, his mother. I had much speech with her after. 
 
 June 9. Being Whit-Sunday, my lord marquess Buckingham was 
 pleased to enter upon a near respect to me. The particulars 
 are not for paper. 
 
 June 15. I became C. to my lord of Buckingham. 
 
 a 4 
 
viii PREFACE TO 
 
 wards, wlien he drew up a memorial of them, he acknow- 
 ledged that he s " did not exactly remember all the 
 passages of the disputation." It appears also that 
 bishop Laud drew up a narrative of the third con- 
 ference, during the Michaelmas term of 1622, but that 
 in his case no doubt was exjiressed as to its perfect 
 accuracy. As these papers were not published till the 
 year 1624, it is necessary to explain why so long a 
 silence should have been observed, on subjects too of 
 so much interest and importance. 
 
 Although a strict injunction had been given that no 
 account of these conferences should be published, which 
 had not been seen and approved by both the parties 
 engaged in them, Fisher did not neglect the oppor- 
 tunity they aiforded him of circulating a relation of 
 what had past, and expressing himself to the great 
 disadvantage of his opponents. It is not necessary to 
 suppose that he misrepresented them designedly ; as in 
 a controversy of that nature it was not possible that a 
 person so educated, who had also taken so prominent a 
 part in the dispute, should be able to hold the balance 
 truly. The fact however was, that the arguments on 
 the Protestant side appeared, as he rejiresented them, 
 to be extremely " unskilful and childish i';" and the 
 whole discussion was exhibited in a manner disgraceful 
 to his opponents and creditable to himself. Tliis was 
 in itself a sufficient reason with bishop Laud and Dr. 
 White for setting forth, on their side, as faithful narra- 
 tives as they could, of the three conferences ; and this 
 reason was much strengthened by the results of other 
 disputations held about the same time, which the Jesuits, 
 both in England and abroad, were describing according 
 
 K See White's preface, p. 3. '^ White's preface, p. 3. 
 
THE EDITION OF 1839. ix 
 
 to their views of them, and employing for their own 
 benefit. On the 27th of Jnne, 1623, the same Dr. 
 White was ensracfed in another discussion^ of the same 
 nature with Fisher, assisted by Dr. Featley on tlie one 
 side, and a Jesuit, of the name of Sweet, on the other, 
 at the house of Sir Humfrey Lynde, and in the presence 
 of many of his friends. This discussion led to the pub- 
 lication of many letters and pamphlets, in which the 
 Jesuits boasted of their success, and treated their oppo- 
 nents in a manner calculated to do much mischief, in 
 common minds, to the Protestant cause. But it was 
 still thought by bishop Laud and Dr. White to be too 
 early to publish their respective naiTatives. They had 
 not yet examined the answers which Fisher had been 
 prejiaring to the king's nine questions, and they natur- 
 ally wished the whole transaction to be included in one 
 work, embracing the entire controversy, and giving 
 them the advantage of appearing in the way of refuta- 
 tion, as well as in the more laborious work of positive 
 ])roof. 
 
 The subjects proposed by king James to Fisher were 
 the following. 1. The worship of images. 2. The 
 prayers and offering oblations to the blessed Virgin 
 Mary. 3. Worshipping and invocation of saints and 
 angels. 4. The Liturgy and i)rivate prayers for tlu' 
 ignorant, in an unknown tongue. 5. Repetitions of 
 Pater Nosters, Aves, and Creeds, especially affixing a 
 kind of merit to the number of them. 6. The doc- 
 trine of transubstantiation. 7. Communion under one 
 kind, and the abetting of it by concomitancy. 8. Works 
 of supererogation, especially with reference unto the 
 
 i An account of it was published by Dr. Featley, under the 
 title, " The Romish Fisher caught and held in his own net." 
 London, 1624. 
 
X PREFACE TO 
 
 treasure of the church. 9- The opinion of deposing 
 kings, and giving away their kingdoms by papal power, 
 whether directly or indirectly. To these questions 
 Fisher drew up his answer separately ; but he pru- 
 dently and dexterously omitted the last, alleging as 
 his excuse, that " the constitutions of his order in se- 
 verest manner charge him no ways to meddle in state- 
 matters or in princes' affairs ; much less under pretence 
 of religion, to attempt any thing or to consent to any 
 enterprize that may disturb the quiet and tranquillity 
 of kino's and kino-doms." 
 
 This work of Fisher was not published by him in 
 the first instance, but was delivered to king James in 
 writing, and was afterwards transferred, according to 
 the king's original intention, to Dr. White, to be exa- 
 mined and answered. Besides the arguments on the 
 eight first questions, the work contained a preliminary 
 dissertation on the rule of faith, the sum and substance 
 of the two earlier conferences in which the writer had 
 been engaged with Dr. White, and nine charges of re- 
 markable error brought against the church of England, 
 as a counterpoise to the nine questions propounded by 
 the king. To this work of Fisher Dr. 'White sent 
 forth his Reply, in April, 1624, reciting the whole of 
 Fisher's work in distinct portions, and adding his own 
 comments and answers, with copious quotations of the 
 authorities on which he relied. At the same time, and 
 as an accomjjaniment to Dr. W^hite's Reply, was pub- 
 lished, " An Answer^ to Mr. Fisher's Relation of the 
 Third Conference," drawn up in reality, as he after- 
 wards acknowledged, by bishop Laud, but ascribed in 
 the title-page to R. B. [Richard Baylie,] the bishop's 
 chaplain. 
 
 1 It is noticed thus in the Diary, " April i6, Friday. My 
 conference with Fisher the Jesuit, printed, came forth." 
 
THE EDITION OF 1839. xi 
 
 Leaving then Dr. White's Reply, with the many 
 publications from Fisher and others to which it gave 
 occasion, our attention must now be confined to the 
 third conference, and the Nan-ative of it which had 
 been published by bishop Laud. 
 
 This Narrative naturally attracted much notice, and 
 was generally assigned to its real author. The most 
 important answer to it was a book published in the 
 year 1626, and written, as was believed, by Fisher him- 
 self, under the assumed initials, A. C. Fisher, though 
 he had fearlessly given his own name or initials in 
 other instances, felt it necessary to be cautious in at- 
 tacking an opponent of so much authority, and the 
 more so, as he did not intend to be very scrui>ulous in 
 his own mode of warfare. He used initials therefore, 
 which would not lead to a discovery, and which he 
 seems to have employed in another case in the year 
 1623, when he published"^ his account of the Con- 
 ference, held in the house of Sir Humfrey Lynde. But 
 for many years Dr. Laud, who in the year 1633 be- 
 came archbishop of Canterbury, took no further notice 
 of his antagonist. Oppressed by sickness, overwhelmed 
 with public business, or mourning over the miseries of 
 his country, he could not give either time or attention 
 to a subject, in which, however deeply he was inter- 
 ested in it, and however earnestly he was solicited by 
 others to undertake it, his services were not indispen- 
 sably required. But having at length received from 
 king Charles an expression of his wish, that the whole 
 question, with Fisher's further observations, should be 
 fully and finally discussed by him, he reconstructed his 
 work in the enlarged and amended form in which we 
 
 «n Under tliis title, " An Answer to a Faniplilet entituled, 
 ' The Fisher catched in his owne net," by A. C, 1623." 
 
xii PREFACE TO 
 
 now have it, and published it in February", 1639. It 
 was a time at which the archbishop still felt himself 
 at liberty to say, " The church of England" (God be 
 thanked) thrives happily under a gracious prince, and 
 well understands that a parliament cannot be called 
 at all times ; and that there are visible judges besides 
 the law-books, and one supreme (long may he be, and 
 be happy) to settle all temporal differences :" and yet 
 within a few days afterwards (February 27th, 1639-) 
 the king issued his declaration i' of war against his 
 northern subjects, which, in the distracted temper of 
 those times, led by gradual but certain consequence 
 to the overthrow of the church, the murder of the 
 sovereign, and the destruction of all rational and 
 established freedom. 
 
 The Archbishop's edition of 1639 was reprinted in 
 the year 1673, and again in 1686; but I have not 
 met Avith a copy of any more recent impression. 
 The initials used in the course of this Relation are 
 
 13. Bishop Laud. 
 
 :ff. Fisher the Jesuit. 
 
 D. W. Dr. Francis White who disputed with 
 Fisher in the two first Conferences. 
 
 L. K. Lord Keeper Williams, bishop of Lincoln, 
 who took part occasionally in the dispute. 
 
 A. C. The initials under which Fisher replied to 
 bishop Laud's first printed account of his Conference. 
 
 There are two points connected with the contents 
 of this work, on which it may be right to offer a few 
 
 n It is noticed thus iu his Diary. " Feb. lo. iMy book 
 against Fisher the Jesuit was printed, and this day, being Sunday, 
 I delivered a copy to his majesty." 
 
 o See p. 175. 
 
 P Rymer, Foedera, vol. xx. p. 290. 
 
THE EDITION OF 1839. xiii 
 
 observations. The one bears npon the qnestion of the 
 divine authority of the scriptures, the other upon their 
 exclusive authority. 
 
 In the Archbishops' Preface we have the folloM^ing 
 ])assage. " According to Christ's institution, the scrij)- 
 ture, where it is plain, should guide the church ; and 
 the church, where there is doubt or difficulty, should 
 expound the scripture; yet so, as neither the scrip- 
 ture should be forced, nor the church so bound up, 
 as that upon just and further evidence, she may not 
 revise that which in any case hath slipt by her." Now 
 this rule, when compared with the 6th Article of 
 the Church of England, appears to be expressed with 
 too much latitude in favour of the church. If in 
 endeavouring to interpret scripture on any point of 
 ftiith, the result is doubt or difficulty, it would seem 
 to be evident that, so far forth, the point in question 
 w^as " neither read therein nor could be proved there- 
 by," and that the church could not require that point 
 as necessary to salvation. It is true, indeed, that 
 different minds, according to their mode of training, 
 will form different judgments in a given case as to 
 the conclusiveness of the proof from scripture ; and 
 that the one party will appeal, however unprofitably, 
 to the authority of the church, in order to supply the 
 deficiency of proof which has been alleged by the 
 other. But it is also true, that the party which feels 
 the doubt will always have recourse to the rule of the 
 6tli Article in justification of its scruples, and the 
 dispute will terminate in the same difference of belief 
 in which it was begun. The best, and indeed the 
 common, illustration of the case is to be found in the 
 practice of infant-baptism ; and it is the more desir- 
 able to adduce it, because it can be given in the words 
 
xiv PREFACE TO 
 
 of the Archbisho]) himself^ and will shew, by a definite 
 and appropriate instance, in what nianne^r, when apply- 
 ing his own rule, he limited and corrected it. " ^T 
 answer to the instance which A. C. makes concernino' 
 the baptism of infants, that it may l)e concluded 
 directly (and let A. C. judge, whether not demonstra- 
 tively) out of scri})ture, l)oth that infants ought to be 
 baptized, and that baptism is necessary to their salva- 
 tion." And acfain : "'I will add this concernino- this 
 jiarticular, the baptizing of infants, that the church 
 received this by tradition from the apostles. By tradi- 
 tion. And what then ? May it not directly be con- 
 cluded out of scripture, because it was delivered to the 
 church by way of tradition? I ho])e A. C will never 
 say so." So then in his judgment, though the practice 
 of infant-baptism was received by tradition, it rests 
 for its authority u])on scri])ture. Tradition, therefore, 
 cannot give the proof, although it may be employed 
 in the way of suggestion before the proof is sought, 
 or in the way of confirmation when the jiroof is already 
 given. 
 
 The other point to which it may be proper to advert 
 is contained in the following statement. " '^The way 
 lies thus (as far as it appears to me) ; The credit of 
 scripture to be divine resolves finally into that faith 
 which we have touching God himself, and in the same 
 order. For as that, so this hath three main grounds, to 
 which all other are reducible. The first is, the tradi- 
 tion of the church ; and this leads us to a reverend 
 persuasion of it. The second is, the light of nature ; 
 and this shews us how necessary such a revealed learn- 
 ing is, and that no other way it can be had ; nay more, 
 that all proofs brought against any i>oint of faith neither 
 
 q See p. 45. »■ See p. 48. s gee p. 94. 
 
THE EDITION OF 1839. xv 
 
 are nor can be demonstrations, but soluble arguments. 
 The third is, tlie light of the text itself, in conversing 
 wherewith we meet with the Spirit of God inwardly 
 inclining our hearts, and sealing the full assurance of 
 the sufficiency of all three unto us. And then, and not 
 before, we are certain that the scripture is the word of 
 God, both by divine and by infallible proof: but our 
 certainty is by faith, and so voluntary, not by know- 
 ledge of such principles as in the light of nature can 
 enforce assent whether we will or no." This expla- 
 nation will scarcely satisfy a reader of discriminating 
 mind. The question here is clearly not respecting the 
 time or order in which the minds of persons in a Chris- 
 tian country become sensible of the authority of scrip- 
 ture, but respecting the method and course of inquiry 
 l)y which such authority is at any time to be ascer- 
 tained : it is therefore not a question respecting the 
 force of education or the teaching of the Church, but 
 respecting the investigation of evidence, and the gradual 
 construction of proof. The process then in such a case 
 is this. The Christian scriptures are records of past 
 events, and must be tested and interpreted by the 
 common methods by which the genuineness and mean- 
 ing of any documents of like date and language are 
 ascertained. These steps fully secured, the contents 
 are then to be examined, as to the degree of credit 
 that attaches to them. Thus far the inquiry is one in 
 which a man's judgment must decide for him ; his own 
 judgment altogether and exclusively, if he believe that 
 he is competent to the task of examination ; and again 
 his own judgment in deference to that of others, if he 
 is conscious that he is not competent ; but still in both 
 cases, his own judgment, whether he exercise it inde- 
 pendently of others, or willingly place it under their 
 
xvi PREFACE TO 
 
 guidance, after acknowledging his own insufficiency and 
 approving of tlieir fitness. It is the same ])rocess 
 which wouhl be followed with respect to any historical 
 records ; but with this difference, that there is no other 
 history whatever of remote events, which is attested 
 by so many kinds and so high a degree of evidence, 
 derived from earlier adaptations, from contemporary 
 and unimpeachable witnesses, from corroborative and 
 traditionary testimony, from the results that have been 
 impressed on all succeeding times, and more especially 
 from the clear and pervading tokens of God's provi- 
 dential government, all of which converge to the same 
 point of moral demonstration. But now another prin- 
 ciple interposes. The contents of these scriptures shew 
 not only the trust-worthiness of the narrative, but also 
 miraculous agency and a divine commission; and the 
 question accordingly is so far changed, that though, as 
 matter of evidence, it has hitherto been a case for pri- 
 vate judgment, as matter of teaching it has now become 
 a case for religious faith. On principles strictly ra- 
 tional, the mind must now surrender itself to the teach- 
 ing of the scriptures as to a supreme and infallible 
 authority ; still exercising its judgment as to the mean- 
 ing of that teaching, but on its own principles deferring 
 to the judgment of those, whether individuals or bodies 
 of men, who have had the best means of information, 
 and have given distinct and authoritative opinions on 
 the subject. 
 
 The Archbishop's deliberate opinion on the part that 
 he had taken in this controversy may be given in the 
 words delivered by him on his trial, with the addition 
 that he made during his imprisonment in the Tower. 
 " My ^ book against Fisher hath been charged against 
 
 s History of the Troubles and Trial, &c. by Wharton, p. 41 8. 
 
THE EDITION OF 1839. xvii 
 
 me : where the argument must lie thus ; I have endea- 
 voured to advance Popery, because I have written 
 against it. And with what strength I have written, 
 I leave to posterity to judge, when the envy, which 
 now overloads me, shall be buried with me. This I will 
 say with St. Gregory Nazianzen, (whose success at Con- 
 stantinople was not much unlike mine here, save that 
 his life was not sought,) ' ^I never laboured for peace to 
 the wrong and detriment of Christian verity,' nor I 
 hope ever shall. [And let the church of England look 
 to it ; for in great humility I crave to write this (though 
 then was no time to speak it) that the church of Eng- 
 land must leave the way it is now going, and come 
 back to that way of defence which I have followed in 
 my book, or she shall never be able to justify her sepa- 
 ration from the church of Rome]." 
 
 EDWARD CARDWELL. 
 
 St. Alban's Hall, 
 March 16, 1839. 
 
 t Ovre (Iprivevofxev Kara tov Xoyov ttjs aXTjdelas v(f)i€VT(s ti 8ia 86^ap 
 
 fTTKiKfias. Greg. Naz. Orat. 32. vol. i. p, 518. Ed. Par. 1630. 
 
 b 
 \ 
 
TO 
 HIS MOST SACRED MAJESTY, 
 
 CHARLES, 
 
 BY THE GRACE OF GOD, 
 
 KING OF (iREAT BKITAIN, FRANCE, AND IRELAND, 
 DEFENDER OF THE FAITH, &c. 
 
 DREAD SOVEREIGN, 
 
 TT^HIS tract will need patronage as great as may be had; 
 -■- that is yonrs. Yet, when I first printe<l part of it, 1 
 presumed not to ask any, but tlirust it out at the end of 
 another's labours, that it might seem at least to have the 
 same patron, your royal father of blessed memory, as the 
 other work on which this attended had. ]3ut now I humbly 
 beg for it your Majesty's patronage, and leave withal that I 
 may declare to your most excellent Majesty the cause why this 
 Tract was then written ; why it stayed so long before it looked 
 upon the light ; why it was not then thought fit to go alone, 
 but rather be led abroad by the former work ; why it comes 
 now forth both with alteration and addition ; and why this 
 addition made not more haste to the press than it hath done. 
 The cause why this discourse was written was this : I was, 
 at the time of these conferences with Mr. Fisher, bishop of St. 
 David's ; and not only directed, but commanded by my blessed 
 master, king James, to this conference with him. He, ^when 
 we met, began with a great protestation of seeking the truth 
 only, and that for itself. And certainly, truth, especially in 
 religion, is so to be sought, or not to be found. He that seeks 
 it with a Roman '' bias or any other, will run counter when 
 
 a ]\Iay 2^, \C122. August, lih. !*i. cout. Adversarium Leisris 
 
 >> Oue of tlic'se biases is an aversion et Fropliet. And it is an t-asy transi- 
 
 froiii all such truth as tits not our tiou lor a man that is averse from, to 
 
 ends. And aversus a rcrilulis liicr, ub becoiiie adverse to the truth. 
 
 hoc Iiici veritatis advcrsiis (fit),&c. S. 
 
 b2 
 
XX THE EPISTLE DEDICATORY. 
 
 he comes near it, and not find it, though he come within 
 kenning of it. And therefore I did most heartily wish I could 
 have found the Jesuit upon that fair way he protested to go. 
 After the conference ended, I went, whither my duty called 
 me, to my diocess, not suspecting any thing should be made 
 public that was both commanded and acted in private. For 
 W. I., the publisher of the Relation of the first Conference 
 with Dr. White, (the late reverend and learned bishop of 
 Ely,) c confesses plainly, " That Mr. Fisher was straitly 
 charged upon his allegiance from his majesty that then was, 
 not to set out or publish what passed in some of these con- 
 ferences till he gave license, and until Mr. Fisher and they 
 might meet, and agree and confirm under their hands what 
 was said on both sides." He says further, " That '^Mr. 
 Fisher went to Dr.White''s house to know what he would say 
 about the Relation which he had set out." So then, belike 
 Mr. Fisher had set out the Relation of that conference before 
 he went to Dr. White to speak about it. And this, not- 
 withstanding the king's restraint upon him upon his alle- 
 giance. Yet to Dr. White, it is said, he went, but to what 
 other end than to put a scorn upon him, I cannot see. For he 
 went to his house to know what he would say about that Rela- 
 tion of the conference which he had set out before. In my 
 absence from London, Mr. Fisher used me as well. For with 
 the same care of his allegiance and no more, ^ he spread 
 
 <^ In the epistle to the reader. a most plain confession by A. C. of that 
 
 d Iliid. which he struggles to deny. He says, 
 
 e These Avords were in my former " he did not spread papers." AV^hat 
 
 epistle. And A.C. checks at them in then? What? Why, he did hut deliver 
 
 defence of the Jesuit, and says, '' That copies. A\'hy, hut doth not he tliat de- 
 
 the Jesuit did not at all so much as in livers cojiies (for instance, of a libel) 
 
 s])eech, and much less in papers, pub- spread it ? Yea, but he delivered but a 
 
 lish tliis or eitlier of the otlier two con- very few copies. Be it so : I do not 
 
 ferences with Dr. ^V'hite, till he was say how many he spread. Lie confesses 
 
 forced unto it by false reports given out tlie Jesuit delivered some, though very 
 
 to his private disgrace, and the preju- few ; and he that delivers any spreads 
 
 dice of the catholic cause. Nor then it abroad. For what can he tell, when 
 
 did he spread {)apers abroad, but only the copies are once out of his power, 
 
 delivered a very few coi)ies to special how many may copy them out and 
 
 friends, and this not with an intent to spread them further ? Yea, but he de- 
 
 cahimniate the bishop," &c. A. C. in livered them to special friends. Be it 
 
 his Preface before his Relation of this so too : the more special friends they 
 
 Conference. Truly, I knew of no re- were to him, tlie less indifferent would 
 
 ports then given out to the prejudice of they be to me, perhaps my more special 
 
 the Jesuit's either jjcrson or cause. I enemies. Yea, but all this was without 
 
 was in a corner of the kingdom where an intent to calumniate me. Well, be 
 
 I heard little. But howsoever, here is that so too. But if 1 be calumniated 
 
THE EPISTLE DEDICATORY. xxi 
 
 abroad papers of this conference, full enough of partiality to 
 his cause, and more full of calumny against me. Hereupon I 
 was in a manner forced to give Mr. Fisher s Relation of the 
 Conference an answer, and to publish it. Though for some 
 reasons, and those then approved by authority, it was thought 
 fit I should set it out in my chaplain's name, R. B., and not 
 in my own. To which I readily submitted. 
 
 There was a cause also, why at the first the discourse upon 
 this conference stayed so long before it could endure to be 
 pressed. For the conference was in May, 1622. And Mr, 
 Fisher's paper was scattered and made common, so common, 
 that a copy was brought to me (being none of his special 
 friends), before Michaelmas. And yet this discourse was not 
 printed till April, 1624. Now that you may know how this 
 happened, I shall say for myself, it was not my idleness, nor 
 my unwillingness to right both myself and the cause against 
 the Jesuit and the paper which he had spread, that occa- 
 sioned this delay. For I had then most honourable wit- 
 nesses, and have some yet living, that this discourse (such as 
 it was when A. C. nibbled at it) was finished long before I 
 could persuade myself to let it come into public view. And 
 this was caused partly by my own backwardness to deal with 
 these men, whom I have ever observed to be great pretenders 
 for truth and unity, but yet such as will admit neither, 
 unless they and their faction may prevail in all, as if no 
 reformation had been necessary ; and partly because there 
 were about the same time three conferences held with Fisher. 
 Of these, this was the third ; and could not therefore con- 
 veniently come abroad into the world, till the two former 
 were ready to lead the way ; which till that time they were 
 not. 
 
 And this is in part the reason also, why this tract crept 
 into the end of a larger work. For since that work con- 
 tained in a manner the substance of all that passed in the 
 two former conferences, and that this third in divers points 
 concurred with them and depended on them ; I could not 
 think it substantive enough to stand alone. But besides this 
 
 thereby, his intention will not help it. nie, I leave to the indifferent reader of 
 And whether the copies which he deli- this disconrse to judf;e. 
 vered have not in them calnmnv against 
 
 l>3 
 
xxii THE EPISTLE DEDICATORY. 
 
 affinity between the conferences, I was willing to have it pass 
 as silently a§ it might, at the end of another work, and so 
 perhaps little to be looked after ; because I could not hold it 
 worthy, nor can I yet, of that great duty and service which 
 I owe to my dear mother the church of England. 
 
 There is a cause also why it looks now abroad again with 
 alteration and addition : and it is fit I should give your 
 Majesty an account of that too. This tract was first printed 
 in the year 1624. And in the year 1626, another Jesuit, or 
 the same, under the name of A. C, printed a Relation of this 
 conference, and therein took exceptions to some particulars, 
 and endeavoured to confute some things delivered therein by 
 me. Now being in years, and unwilling to die in the Jesuit's 
 debt, I have in this second edition done as much for him, and 
 somewhat more. For he did but skip up and down, and 
 labour to pick a hole here and there, where he thought he 
 miaht fasten ; and where it was too hard for him, let it alone. 
 But I have gone through with him, and I hope given a full 
 confutation ; or at least such a bone to gnaw, as may shake 
 his teeth, if he look not to it. And of my addition to this 
 discourse, this is the cause ; but of my alteration of some 
 things in it, this : A. C. his curiosity to winnow me made 
 me in a more curious manner fall to sifting of myself, and 
 that which had formerly passed my pen. And though (I bless 
 God for it) I found no cause to alter any thing that belonged 
 either to the substance or course of the conference, yet 
 somewhat I did find which needed better and clearer expres- 
 sion ; and that I have altered, well knowing I must expect 
 curious observers on all hands. 
 
 Now, why this additional answer to the Relation of A. C. 
 came no sooner forth, hath a cause too, and I shall truly 
 represent it. A. 0. his Relation of the Conference was set 
 out 1 6^6. I knew not of it in some years after. For it was 
 printed among divers other things of like nature, either by 
 Mr. Fisher himself, or his friend A. C. When 1 saw it, I 
 read it over carefully, and found myself not a little wronged 
 in it; but the church of England, and indeed the cause of 
 religion, much more. I was before this time, by your 
 Majesty's great grace and undeserved favour, made dean of 
 your Majesty's chapel royal, and a counsellor of state, and 
 
THE EPISTLE DEDICATORY. xxiii 
 
 hereby, as the occasions of those times were, made too much 
 a stranger to my books. Yet for all my busy employments, 
 it was still in my thoughts to give A. C. an answer. But 
 then I fell into a most dangerous fever; and though it 
 pleased God, beyond all hope, to restore me to health, yet 
 long I was before I recovered such strength as might enable 
 me to undertake such a service. And since that time how I 
 have been detained, and in a manner forced upon other many, 
 various and great occasions, your Majesty knows best. And 
 how of late I have been used by the scandalous and scurrilous 
 pens of some bitter men, (whom I heartily beseech God to 
 forgive,) the world knows : little leisure and less encourage- 
 ment given me to answer a Jesuit, or set upon other services, 
 while I am under the prophet's affliction, f between the mouth 
 that spealcs tvickedness, and the tongue that sets forth deceit, 
 and slander me as thick as if I were not their own mother's 
 son. In the midst of these libellous outcries against me, 
 some divines of great note and worth in the church came to 
 me, one by one, and no one knowing of the other's coming, (as 
 to me they protested,) and persuaded with me to reprint this 
 Conference in my own name. This they thought would vin- 
 dicate my reputation, were it generally known to be mine. I 
 confess I looked round about these men and their motion ; 
 and at last, my thoughts working much upon themselves, I 
 began to persuade myself that I had been too long diverted 
 from this necessary work : and that perhaps there might be 
 in voce hominum tuba Dei, in the still voice of men the loud 
 trumpet of God, which sounds many ways, sometimes to the 
 ears and sometimes to the hearts of men, and by means 
 which they think not of. And as sSt. Augustine speaks, a 
 word of God there is, quod nunquam tacet, sed non semper au- 
 ditur, which though it be never silent, yet is not always 
 heard. That it is never silent, is his great mercy ; and that 
 it is not always heard, is not the least of our misery. Upon 
 this motion I took time to deliberate ; and had scarce time 
 
 f Psalm 1. 19, 20. astonishment, yet believed him not: 
 
 g S^Aiig.' Serm. 6^ de Diversis, c. Luke ii. 47. And the Word then 
 
 10. He speaks of Clirist disputing in sjiake to them hy a means they tlioiight 
 
 the temple with the elders of the .Jews, not of, namely, per Filinm Dei in 
 
 And tl-.ey heard Christ, the essential jmero, iiy the Son of <i<><l lumself under 
 
 Word of the Father, with admiration to the vail of our human nature. 
 
 b 4 
 
xxiv THE EPISTLE DEDICATORY. 
 
 for that, much less for the work. Yet at last to every of 
 these men I gave this answer : That Mr. Fisher, or A. C. for 
 him, had been busy with my former discourse, and that I 
 would never reprint that, unless I might gain time enough to 
 answer that which A. C. had charged afresh both upon me 
 and the cause. While my thoughts were thus at work, your 
 Majesty fell upon the same thing, and was graciously pleased 
 not to command, but to wish me to reprint this Conference, 
 and in mine own name ; and this openly at the council-table 
 in Michaelmas term, 1637. I did not hold it fit to deny, 
 having in all the course of my service obeyed your Majesty's 
 honourable and just motions as commands; but craved 
 leave to shew what little leisure I had to do it, and what 
 inconveniences might attend upon it. When this did not 
 serve to excuse me, I humbly submitted to that, which I hope 
 was God's motion in your Majesty's. And having thus laid 
 all that concerns this discourse before your gracious and most 
 sacred Majesty, I most humbly present you with the book 
 itself, which as I heartily pray you to protect, so do I wholly 
 submit it to the church of England, with my prayers for 
 her prosperity, and my wishes that I were able to do her 
 better service. 
 
 I have thus acquainted your Majesty with all occasions, 
 which both formerly and now again have led this tract into 
 the light ; in all which I am a faithful relater of all passages, 
 but am not very well satisfied who is now my adversary. 
 Mr. Fisher was at the conference ; since that, I find A. C. 
 at the print. And whether these be two or but one Jesuit 
 I know not, since scarce one amongst them goes under one 
 name. But for my own part (and the error is not great, if I 
 mistake) I think they are one, and that one, Mr. Fisher. 
 That whicli induces me to think so is, first, the great inward- 
 ness of A. C. with Mr. Fisher, which is so great, as may well 
 be thought to neighbour upon identity. Secondly, the style 
 of A. C. is so like Mr. Fishers, that I doubt it was but one 
 A. C. p. 67. and the same hand that moved the pen. Thirdly, A. C. says 
 expressly, " That the Jesuit himself made the relation of the 
 first conference with Dr. White f and in the title-page of the 
 work, that relation, as well as this, is said to be made by A. C. 
 and published by W. I.; therefore A. C. and the Jesuit are 
 
THE EPISTLE DEDICATORY. xxv 
 
 one and the same person, or else one of these places hath no 
 truth in it. 
 
 Now if it be Mr. Fisher himself, under the name of A. 0., 
 then what needs these i' words : " The Jesuit could be content 
 to let pass the chaplain's censure, as one of his ordinary per- 
 secutions for the catholic faith ; but A. C. thought it necessary 
 for the common cause to defend the sincerity and truth of his 
 Relation, and the truth of some of the chief heads contained in 
 it V In which speech give me leave to observe to your sacred 
 Majesty, how grievously you suffer him and his fellows to be 
 persecuted for the catholic faith, when your poor subject and 
 servant cannot set out a true copy of a conference held %vith 
 the Jesuit, jussu superiorwm, but by and by the man is per- 
 secuted. God forbid I should ever offer to persuade a per- 
 secution in any kind, or practise it in the least ; for to my 
 remembrance, I have not given him or his so much as coarse 
 language. But on the other side, God forbid too, that your 
 Majesty should let both laws and discipline sleep for fear of 
 the name of persecution, and in the mean time let Mr. Fisher 
 and his fellows angle in all parts of your dominions for your 
 subjects. If in your grace and goodness you will spare their 
 persons, yet I humbly beseech you, see to it that they be not 
 suffered to lay either their wheels, or bait their hooks, or cast 
 their nets in every stream, lest that tentation grow both too 
 general and too strong. I know they have many devices to 
 work their ends ; but if they will needs be fishing, let them 
 use none but 'lawful nets. Let us have no dissolving of oaths 
 of allegiance, no deposing, no killing of kings, no blowing 
 up of states, to settle quod volumus, that which fain they 
 would have in the church ; with many other nets as dan- 
 gerous as these : for if their profession of religion were as 
 good as they pretend it is, if they cannot compass it by good 
 means, I am sure they ought not to attempt it by bad. For 
 if they will do evil that good may come thereof, the apostle 
 tells me, ^ their damnation is just. 
 
 Now as I would humbly beseech your Majesty to keep a 
 
 h Preface to the Relation of this Con- have greatest cause to take heed of 
 
 ference hy A. C. them. S. August, hb. de Fide et Oper. 
 
 i And St. Augustine is very full c. 17. 
 
 against the use of mala retia, unlawful k Rom. iii. S. 
 nets, and saith the fishermen themselves 
 
xxvi THE EPISTLE DEDICATORY. 
 
 serious watch upon these Fisher-men, which pretend St. Peter, 
 but fish not with his net ; so would I not have you neglect 
 another sort of anglers in a shallower water. For they have 
 some ill nets too. And if they may spread them when and 
 where they will, God knows what may become of it. These 
 have not so strong a back abroad as the Romanists have ; 
 but that is no argument to suffer them to increase. They 
 may grow to equal strength with number. And factious 
 people at home, of what sect or fond opinion soever they be, 
 are not to be neglected : partly, because they are so near ; 
 and it is ever a dangerous fire that begins in the bedstraw : 
 and partly, because all those domestic evils, which threaten 
 a rent in church or state, are with far more safety prevented 
 by wisdom than punished by justice. And would men con- 
 sider it right, they are far more beholding to that man that 
 keeps them from falling, than to him that takes them up, 
 though it be to set the arm or the leg that is broken in the 
 fall. 
 
 In this discourse I have no aim to displease any, nor any 
 hope to please all. If I can help on* to truth in the church, 
 and the peace of the church together, I shall be glad, be it in 
 any measure. Nor shall I spare to speak necessary truth, out 
 of too much love of peace ; nor thrust on unnecessary truth 
 to the breach of that peace, which, once broken, is not so easily 
 soldered again. And if for necessary truth's sake only, any 
 man will be offended, nay take, nay snatch at that offence 
 which is not given, I know no fence for that. It is truth, and 
 I must tell it: it is the gospel, and I must preach it'. And 
 far safer it is in this case to bear anger from men, than a woo 
 from God, And where the foundations of faith are shaken, be 
 it by superstition or profaneness, ho that puts not to his 
 hand as firmly as he can to support them, is too wary and 
 hath more care of himself than of the cause of Christ, And 
 it is a wariness that brings more danger in the end than it 
 shuns. For the angel of the Lord issued out a curse against the 
 inhabitants of Meroz, because they came not to help the Lord., to 
 help the Lord against the mighty"^. I know it is a great ease 
 to let every thing be as it will, and every man believe and do 
 
 1 1 ('(ir. ix. i6. Ill Judges V. 23. 
 
THE EPISTLE DEDICATORY. xxvii 
 
 as he list : but whether governors in state or church do their 
 duty therewhile is easily seen, since this is an effect of no king 
 in Israel ". 
 
 The church of Christ upon earth may be compared to a 
 hive of bees, and that can be nowhere so steadily placed in 
 this world, but it will bo in some danger. And men that care 
 neither for the hive nor the bees, have yet a gi'eat mind to 
 the honey ; and having once tasted the sweet of the church's 
 maintenance, swallow that for honey, which one day will be 
 more bitter than gall in their bowels. Now the king and the 
 priest, more than any other, are bound to look to the in- 
 tegrity of the church in doctrine and manners, and that in 
 the first place ; for that is by far the best honey in the hive. 
 But in the second place, they must be careful of the church's 
 maintenance too, else the bees shall make honey for others, 
 and have none left for their own necessary sustenance, and 
 then all is lost. For we see it in daily and common use, that 
 the honey is not taken from the bees, but they are destroyed 
 first. Now in this great and busy work, the king and the 
 priest must not fear to put their hands to the hive, though 
 they be sure to be stung ; and stung by the bees whose hive 
 and house they preserve. It was king David's case, (God 
 grant it be never yours :) Tliey came about me^ saith the 
 Psalmist, *^ like bees. This was hard usage enough, yet some 
 profit, some honey might thus be gotten in the end : and 
 that is the king's case. But when it comes to the priest, the 
 case is altered : they come about him like wasps, or like hor- 
 nets rather, all sting and no honey there. And all this many 
 times for no offence, nay sometimes for service done them, 
 would they see it. But you know who said. Behold, I come 
 shortly/ ; and my reward is ivith me, to give to every man accord- 
 ing as his tvorks shall beP. And he himself is so 1 exceeding great 
 a retcard, as that the manifold stings which are in the world, 
 howsoever they smart here, are nothing when they are pressed 
 out with that exceeding iveight of glory which shall be re- 
 vealed ^ 
 
 n Judges xvii. 6. desceiitia. C'alv. in Psiil. cxviii. 
 
 o Psal.cxviii.i2. — Apurn similitudine i' Revel, xxii. 12. 
 
 aidorem luitat vesanum ; iioii est euim 'i Gen. xv. i . 
 in illis mnltnm roboris, sed mira excan- i" Rom. viii. iS. 
 
 to 
 
xxviii THE EPISTLE DEDICATORY. 
 
 Now one thing more let me be bold to observe to yom- 
 Majesty in particular, concerning your great charge, the 
 church of England. It is in a hard condition. She pro- 
 fesses the ancient catholic ftiith, and yet the Romanist con- 
 demns her of novelty in her doctrine. She practises church 
 government, as it hath been in use in all ages and all places, 
 where the church of Christ hath taken any rooting, both in 
 and ever since the apostles' times ; and yet the separatist con- 
 demns her for antichristianism in her discipline. The plain 
 truth is, she is between these two factions, as between two 
 millstones ; and unless your Majesty look to it, to whose trust 
 she is committed, she will be ground to powder, to an irre- 
 parable both dishonour and loss to tliis kingdom. And it is 
 very remarkable, that while both these press hard upon the 
 church of England, both of them ciy out upon persecution, 
 like frowai-d children, which scratch, and kick, and bite, and 
 yet cry out all the while as if themselves were killed. Now to 
 the Romanist I shall say this ; The errors of the church of 
 Rome are grown now (many of them) very old ; and when 
 errors are grown by age and continuance to strength, they 
 which speak for the truth, though it be far older, are ordi- 
 narily challenged for the bringers in of new opinions. And 
 there is no greater absurdity stirring this day in Christendom, 
 than that the reformation of an old corrupted church, will we, 
 nill we, must be taken for the building of a new. And were 
 not this so, we should never be troubled with that idle and 
 impertinent question of theirs. Where was your church be- 
 fore Luther? for it was just there, where theirs is now. sQne 
 and the same church still, no doubt of that. One in substance, 
 but not one in condition of state and purity ; their part of 
 the same church remaining in corruption, and our part of the 
 same church under reformation. The same Naaman, and he 
 a Syrian still, but leprous with them, and cleansed with us ; 
 the same man still. And for the separatist, and him that lays 
 
 s " There is no other difference lie- field, now of Diiresm., in the letters 
 
 tween ns and Rome, than betwixt a printed by the h]). of Exeter, in tliis 
 
 church miserably corrupted, and happily treatise called the Reconciler, p. 68. 
 
 purged," &c. Jos. Hall, bp. of Kxon, And Dr. Field, in this Appendix to the 
 
 in his Aj)ologetical Advertisement to tliird part, cap. 2, where he cites Calvin 
 
 the Header, p. 192 ; approved liy Tho. to the same purpose, lib.iv. Inst. cap. 2. 
 
 Morton, l)p. then of Coventry and Lich- §. 11. 
 
THE EPISTLE DEDICATORY. xxix 
 
 Ills grounds for separation or change of discipline, though all 
 he says or can say be in truth of divinity and among learned 
 men little better than ridiculous ; yet since these fond opin- 
 ions have gained some ground among your people, to such 
 among them as are wilfully set to follow their blind guides 
 through thick and thin, till 'they fall into the ditch together, 
 I shall say nothing : but for so many of them as mean well, 
 and are only misled by artifice and cunning, concerning them 
 I shall say thus much only, " They are bells of passing good 
 metal, and tuneable enough of themselves, and in their own 
 disposition ; and a world of pity it is that they are rung so 
 miserably out of tune as they are, by them which have gotten 
 power in and over their consciences. And for this there is 
 yet remedy enough ; but how long there will be, I know not. 
 
 ]\Iuch talking there is (bragging, your Majesty may call it) 
 on both sides ; and when they are in their ruff, they both 
 exceed all moderation and truth too ; so far, till both lips and 
 pens open for all the woi'ld, like a purse without money ; 
 nothing comes out of this, and that which is worth nothing out 
 of them. And yet this nothing is made so great, as if the 
 salvation of souls, that great work of the Redeemer of the 
 world the Son of God, could not be effected without it. And 
 while the one faction cries up the church above the scripture, 
 and the other the scripture to the neglect and contempt of the 
 church, which the scripture itself teaches men both to honour 
 and obey, they have so far endangered the belief of the one 
 and the authority of the other, as that neither hath its due 
 from a great part of men ; whereas, according to Christ's 
 institution, the scripture, where it is plain, should guide the 
 church, and the church, where there is doubt or difficulty, 
 should expound the scripture ; yet so as neither the scripture 
 should be forced, nor the church so bound up, as that upon 
 just and further evidence she may not revise that which in 
 any case hath slipt by her What success this great dis- 
 temper, caused by the collision of two such factions, may 
 liave, I know not, I cannot prophesy. This I know, that the 
 use which wise men should make of other men's falls is not 
 to fall with them ; and the use which pious and religious men 
 
 f 3lHtth. XV. 14. 
 
XXX THE EPISTLE DEDICATORY. 
 
 should make of these great flaws in Christianity, is not to 
 join with them that make them, nor to help to dislocate those 
 main bones in the body, which being once put out of joint 
 will not easily be set again. And though I cannot prophesy, 
 yet I fear that atheism and irreligion gather strength, while 
 the truth is thus weakened by an unworthy way of contend- 
 ing for it. And while they thus contend, neither part con- 
 sider that they are in a way to induce upon themselves and 
 others that contrary extreme, which they seem most both to 
 fear and oppose. 
 
 Besides, this I have ever observed, that many rigid profes- 
 sors have turned Roman catholics, and in that turn have been 
 more jesuitcd than any other ; and such Romanists as have 
 changed from them have for the most part (juito leaped over 
 the mean, and been as rigid the other way as extremity 
 itself. And this, if there be not both grace and wisdom to 
 govern it, is a very natui'al motion ; for a man is apt to 
 think ho can never run far enough from that which he once 
 begins to hate, and doth not consider therewhile, that where 
 religion corrupted is the thing ho hates, a fallacy may easily 
 be put upon him ; for he ought to hate the corruption which 
 depraves religion, and to run from it ; but from no part of 
 religion itself, which he ought to love and reverence, ought he 
 to depart. And this I have observed furthei', that no one 
 thino- hath made conscientious men more waverinij in their 
 own minds, or more apt and easy to be drawn aside from the 
 sincerity of religion professed in the church of England, than 
 the want of uniform and decent order in too many churches 
 of the kingdom. And the Romanists have been apt to say. 
 The houses of God could not be suffered to lie so nastily, 
 (as in some places they have done,) were the true worship of 
 God observed in them, or did the people think that such it 
 were. It is true the inward worship of the heart is the 
 great service of God, and no service acceptable without it ; 
 but the external worsliip of God in his church is the great 
 witness to the world that our heart stands right in that ser- 
 vice of God : take this away, or bring it into contempt, and 
 what light is there left to shine before men, that they may see 
 our devotion, and glorify our Father which is in heaven ? And 
 to deal clearly with your Majesty, these thoughts are they, 
 
THE EPISTLE DEDICATORY. xxxi 
 
 and no other, which have made me labour so much as I have 
 done for decency and an orderly settlement of the external 
 worship of God in the church ; for of that which is inward 
 there can be no witness among men, nor no example for men. 
 Now no external action in the world can be uniform without 
 some ceremonies ; and these in religion, the ancienter they 
 bo the better, so thoy may fit time and place: too many 
 over-burden the service of God, and too few leave it naked. 
 And scarce any thing hath hurt religion more in these broken 
 times than an opinion in too many men, that because Rome had 
 thrust some unnecessary and many superstitious ceremonies 
 upon the church, therefore the Reformation must have none 
 at all; not considering therewhile, that ceremonies are the 
 hedge that fence the substance of religion from all the indig- 
 nities which profaneness and sacrilege too commonly put upon 
 it. And a great weakness it is not to see the strength which 
 ceremonies (things weak enough in themselves, God knows) 
 add even to religion itself; but a far greater to see it, and 
 yet to cry them down, all, and without choice, by which their 
 most hated adversaries climbed up, and could not cry up 
 themselves and their cause as they do but by them. And 
 divines, of all the rest, might learn and teach this wisdom if 
 they would, since they see all other professions which help to 
 bear down their ceremonies, keep up their own therewhile, 
 and that to the highest. 
 
 I have been too bold to detain your Majesty so long ; but 
 my grief to see Christendom bleeding in dissension, and, which 
 is worse, triumphing in her own blood, and most angry with 
 them that would study her peace, hath thus transported me. 
 For truly it cannot but grieve any man that hath bowels, to 
 see all men seeking, but as St. Paul foretold ", their own 
 things, and not the things which are Jesus Christ's ; ma^ 
 their own surely, for the gospel of Christ hath nothing to do 
 with them ; and to see religion, so much, so zealously pre- 
 tended and called upon, made but the stalking-horse to shoot 
 at other fowl, upon which their aim is set : in the mean time, as 
 if all were truth and holiness itself, no salvation must be pos- 
 sible, did it lie at their mercy, but in the communion of the 
 
 II Phil. ii. 2r. 
 
xxxii THE EPISTLE DEDICATORY. 
 
 one, and in the conventicles of the other. As if either of these 
 now were, as the Donatists of old reputed themselves, the only 
 men in whom Christ at his coming to judgment should find 
 faith. "No,"" saith ^ St. Augustine, and so say I with him, 
 " Da veniam, non credimus ; pardon us, I pray, we cannot 
 believe it." The catholic church of Christ is neither Rome 
 nor a conventicle. Out of that there is no salvation, I easily 
 confess it ; but out of Rome there is, and out of a con- 
 venticle too : salvation is not shut up into such a narrow con- 
 clave. In this ensuing discourse therefore I have endea- 
 voured to lay open those wider gates of the catholic church,- . 
 confined to no age, time, or place ; nor knowing any bounds, ' 
 but that faith, which was once (and but once for all) delivered 
 to the saints Y. And in my pursuit of this way I have 
 searched after, and delivered with a single heart, that truth 
 which I profess. In the publishing whereof, I have obeyed 
 your Majesty, discharged my duty to my power to the 
 church of England, ^ given account of the hope that is in me, 
 and so testified to the world that faith in which I have lived, 
 and by God's blessing and favour purpose to die ; but till 
 death shall most unfeignedly remain, 
 
 Your Majesty's most faithful subject, 
 
 And most humble and obliged servant, 
 
 W. CANT. 
 
 » S.August. Epist. 48. y Judej. z i Pet. iii. 15. 
 
r 
 
 A 
 
 RELATION OF THE CONFERENCE 
 
 BETWEEN 
 
 WILLIAM LAUD, 
 
 THEN I,ORD BISHOP OF ST. DAV1d"'s, AFTERWARDS LORD ARCHBISHOP 
 
 OF CANTERBURY, 
 
 AND 
 
 MR. FISHER THE JESUIT. 
 
 jf . The occasion of this conference was — 
 U. rilHE occasion of this third conference you should know ?ect. i. 
 
 J*- sufficiently. You were an actor in it, as well as in 
 two other. Whether you have related the two former truly, 
 appears by Dr. White the late reverend lord bishop of Ely 
 his relation or exposition of them. I was present at none 
 but this third ; of which I here give the church an account. 
 But of this third, whether that were the cause which you 
 allege, I cannot tell. You say, 
 
 :§. It was observed, that in the second conference all the 
 speech was about particular matters, little or none about 
 a continual, infallible, visible church ; which was the chief 
 and only point in which a certain lady required satis- 
 faction ; as having formerly settled in her mind, that it 
 was not for her, or any other unlearned persons, to take 
 upon them to judge of particulars, without depending 
 upon the judgment of the true church. 
 13. The opinion of that honourable person in this was never Sect. 2. 
 opened to mo. And it is very fit the people should look to 
 the judgment of th(i church, before they be too busy with 
 
 B 
 
2 Archbishop Laud against 
 
 Sect. 2,3. particulars. But yot neither scripture^, nor any good author- 
 ity, denies them some moderate use of their own imder- 
 standing and judgment, especially in things familiar and 
 evident ; which even ordinary capacities may as easily under- 
 stand as read''. And therefore some particulars a Christian 
 may judge without depending. 
 
 ^. This lady therefore having heard it granted in the first 
 conference, that there must be a continual visible com- 
 pany ever since Christ, teaching unchanged doctrine in all 
 fundamental points, that is, points necessary to salvation, 
 desired to hear this confirmed, and proof brought which 
 was that continual, infallible, visible church, in which one 
 may, and out of which one cannot, attain salvation. And 
 therefore, having appointed a time of meeting between a 
 ii3. and me, and thereupon having sent for the 13. and me, 
 before the li. came, the lady, and a friend of hers, came 
 first to the room where I was, and debated before me the 
 aforesaid question ; and not doubting of the first part, 
 to wit, that there must bo a continual visible church, as 
 they had heard granted by D. White and L. K., &c. 
 Sect. 3. I. — B. What D. AVhite and L. K. granted, I heard not : 
 
 but I think both granted a continual and a visible church ; 
 neither of them an infallible, at least in your sense. And 
 yourself, in this relation, speak distractedly : for in these few 
 lines from the beginning hither, twice you add infallible 
 between continual and visible, and twice you leave it out. 
 But this concerns D. W., and he hath answered it. 
 A. C. p. 42. II. — Here A. C. steps in, and says, '• Tlie Jesuit did not 
 speak distractedly, but most advisedly : for (saith he) where 
 he relates what D. White or L. K. granted, he leaves out the 
 word infallible, because they granted it not; but where he 
 speaks of the lady, there he adds it, because the Jesuit knew 
 
 a I Cor. X. 15. Et Zidvoia otto toD Siafoeir, i. e. ab eo 
 
 ^ Qiiis non sine iillo magistro, ant (|uod coiisideiat, et discernit : quia de- 
 
 iiiterprete ex se facile cognoscat, <S:c. ceniit inter vernm et falsnni. Damasc. 
 
 Novat. de Trin. c. 2.',. — Et lo<|uitnr de lib. ii. Fid. Orth. c. 22. 
 
 mvsterio jiassionis C'hristi : Dijudicare And A. C. himseli, p. 41, denies not 
 
 est mensurare, <S:c. ; unde et mens dici- all judirinent to jn-ivate men ; bnt says, 
 
 tnr a metiendo. Thoni. p. i. (]. 79. a 9 " They are not so to rely absolutely 
 
 ad 4. To what end then is a mind and upon their private judgment, as to ad- 
 
 an understanding given a man, if he venture salvation upon it alone, or 
 
 nay not apply it to measure truth? — chiefly;" which no man will den 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 8 
 
 it was an infallible church which she sought to rely upon."" Sect. 3. 
 How far the catholic militant church of Christ is infallible, is 
 no dispute for this place, though you shall find it after. But 
 sure the Jesuit did not speak most advisedly, nor A. 0. 
 neither, nor the lady herself, if she said she desired to rely 
 upon an infallible church. For an infallible church denotes 
 a particular church, in that it is set in opposition to some 
 other particular church that is not infallible. Now I for ray 
 part do not know what that lady desired to rely upon. This 
 I know : if she desired such a particular church, neither this 
 Jesuit, nor any other, is able to shew it her ; no, not Bellar- 
 mine himself, though of very great ability to make good any 
 truth which he undertakes for tlie church of Rome. '^But 
 no strength can uphold an error against truth, where truth 
 hath an able defendant. Now where Bellarmine sets himself 
 purposely to make this good, '"^That the particular church of 
 Rome cannot err in matter of faith ;"" out of \\'hich it follows, 
 that there may be found a particular infallible church ; you 
 shall see what he is able to perform. 
 
 III. — 1. First then, after he hath distinguished, to express 
 his meaning, in what sense the particular church of Rome 
 cannot err in things which are de Jide, of the faith, he tells 
 us, this firmitude is, because the see apostolic is fixed there. 
 And this, he saith, is most true : ^and for proof of it, he 
 brings three Fathers to justify it. 
 
 (t.) The first, St. Cyprian, ^ whose words are, that the 
 Romans are such as to whom perfdia cannot have access. 
 Now jjerfidla can hardly stand for error in faith, or for mis- 
 belief; but it properly signifies malicious falsehood in matter 
 of trust and action ; not error in faith, but in fact, against 
 the discipline and government of the church. And why may 
 it not here have this meaning in St. Cyprian. 
 
 IV. — For the story there, it is this, sin the year 255 there 
 was a council in Carthage in the cause of two schismatics, 
 
 c Veritas vincat necesse est, sive ne- e Ihid. §. 2. 
 
 gantem, sive coiirttentem, i^c. S. Aug. f Navigare audent ad Petri cathe- 
 
 Epist. 174. — Occultari potest ad tern- dram, et eeclesiam priiiciijalem, &c. nee 
 
 pus Veritas, vinci non potest. S. Aug. cogitare eos esse Jioinanos, ad quos per- 
 
 in Psal. 61. fidia Iialiere noa potest accessum. Cy- 
 
 d L. iv. de Rom. Pont. cnp. 4. §. i. prian. lili. i. epist. ■>,. 
 
 Romaua ]>articiilaris ecclesia nou potest g Biunii Coiicil. tom. i. j). 152. edit, 
 
 errare in tide. Paris. lU^fi- Baron. AuuhI. 25.5 — 255. 
 
 U 2 
 
4 Archbishop Laud against 
 
 Sert. 3. Felicissimus and Novatian, about restoring of them to the 
 comniunion of the church, which liad lapsed, in time of danger, 
 from Christianity to idolatry. Felicissimus would admit all, 
 even without penance ; and Novatian would admit none, no 
 not after penance. The Fathers, foi'ty-two in number, went, as 
 the truth led them, between both extremes. To this council 
 came Privatus, a known heretic, but was not admitted, be- 
 cause he was formerly excommunicated, and often condennied. 
 Hereupon he gathers his complices together, and chooses one 
 Fortunatus (who was formerly condemned as well as himself) 
 bishop of Carthage, and set him up against St. Cyprian, This 
 done, Felicissimus and his fellows haste to Rome, with letters 
 testimonial from their own party, and pretend that twenty- 
 five bishops concurred with them ; and their desire was, to 
 be received into the communion of the Roman church, and 
 to have their new bishop acknowledged. Cornelius, then 
 pope, thougli their haste had now prevented St. Cyprian''s 
 letters, having formerly heard from him both of them and 
 their schism in Afric, would neither hear them, nor receive 
 their letters. They grew insolent and furious, (the ordinary 
 way that schismatics take.) Upon this Cornelius writes to 
 St. Cyprian ; and St. Cyprian, in this epistle, gives Cornelius 
 thanks for refusing these African fugitives, declares their 
 schism and wickedness at large, and encourages him, and all 
 bishops, to maintain the ecclesiastical discipline and censures 
 against any the boldest threatenings of wicked schismatics. 
 This is the story ; and in this is the passage here urged by 
 I3ellarmine. Now I would fain know why perfidia (all circum- 
 stances considered) may not stand here in its proper sense, 
 for cunning and perfidious dealing ; which these men, having 
 practised at Carthage, thought now to obtrude upon the 
 bishop of Rome also, but that he was wary enough not to be 
 overreached by busy schismatics. 
 
 V. — (2.) Secondly, let it be granted, that perfidia doth 
 signify here error in faith and doctrine. For I will not deny 
 but that among the African writers (and especially St. 
 Cyprian) it is sometimes so used; and therefore here perhaps. 
 But then this privilege, of not erring dangerously in the faith, 
 was not made over absolutely to the Romans, that are such 
 by birth and dwelling only ; but to the Romans, qua tales, as 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 5 
 
 they were such as those first were, whose faith 2cas famous Sect. 3. 
 throuqh the world, and as long as they continued such ; which 
 at that time it seems they did. And so St. Cyprian's words 
 seem to import, " eos esse Eomanos,"'' that the Romans then, 
 under pope CornoHus, were such as the ^ apostle spake of; 
 and therefore to whom, at that time, (or any time, they still 
 remaining such,) perfidious misbelief could not be welcome ; 
 or rather, indeed, perfidious misbelievers or schismatics could 
 not be welcome. For this very phrase, jMufdia non potest 
 hahere accessum, directs us to understand the word in a con- 
 crete sense : " Perfidiousness could not get access ;" that is, 
 such perfidious persons, excommunicated out of other churches, 
 were not likely to get access at Rome, or to find admittance 
 into their conmumion. It is but a metonymy of speech, the 
 adjunct for the subject; a thing very usual even in 'elegant 
 authors, and much more in later times, as in St. Cyprian's, 
 when the Latin language was grown rougher. Now, if it be 
 thus understood (I say, in the concrete), then it is plain that 
 St. Cyprian did not intend by these words to exempt the 
 Romans from possibility of error, but to brand his adversaries 
 with a title due to their mei-it, calling them perfidious, that 
 is, such as had betrayed or perverted the faith. Neither can 
 we lose by this construction, as will appear at after. 
 
 VI. — (3.) But thirdly; when all is done, what if it be no more 
 than a rhetorical excess of speech ; perfdia non potest, for non 
 facile potest ,- it cannot, that is, it cannot easily l Or what if 
 St. Cyprian do but laudando prwcij)ere, '^by conunending them 
 to be such, instruct them that such indeed they ought to be, 
 to wJiom perfidiousness should not get access ? Men are veiy 
 bountiful of their compliments sometimes. 'Synesius writing 
 t(f Theophilus of Alexandria begins thus : 'Eyo nal [iovXoixai, 
 Kol avaynTf] \xol deia, &c. I both will, and a divine necessity lies 
 upon me, to esteem it a law, whatsoever that throne (meaning 
 his of Alexandria) shall determine. Nay, the word is Oea-iri- 
 Cetv, and that signifies to determine like an oracle, or as in 
 God's stead. Now I hope you will say, this is not to be 
 
 h Rom. i. 8. tus aniictu (inmis Jlonos. Nullos comi- 
 
 i I'^go til>i istam scelestam, scelus, tata est i)tirpura/rtaTC*'. Lucan. lih. ii. 
 lingiiain alisciiiilam. Plant. Ampliit. — '< Nee cogitare eos esse Koinauos, 
 
 Ex liac enirii parte pudor jmgiiat, illinc fiuoruin (ides apostolo jHwdicaiite, &c. 
 j)etulantia,Sn:. C'ic. — Latuit plebeio tec- l Epist. 67. 
 
 «3 
 
6 ArMishop Laud against 
 
 Sect. 3. taken dogmatically, it is but the epistler's courtesy only. 
 And why not the like here? For the haste which these 
 schismatics made to Rome prevented St. Cyprian^s letters : 
 yet Cornelius, very careful of both the truth and peace of the 
 church, would neither hear them, nor receive their letters, 
 ■T»till he had written to St. Cyprian. Now this epistle is St. 
 Cyprian^s answer to Cornelius, in which ho informs him of the 
 whole truth ; and withal gives him thanks for refusing to 
 hear these African fugitives. In which fair way of returning 
 his thanks, if he make an honourable mention of the Romans 
 and their faith, with a little dash of rhetoric, even to a non 
 potest, for a non facile p)of est, it is no great wonder. 
 
 VII. — But take which answer you will of the three, this is 
 plain, that St. Cyprian had no meaning to assert the unerring 
 infallibility of either pope or church of Rome. For this is 
 more than manifest, by the contestation which after happened 
 between St. Cyprian and pope Stephen, about the rebap- 
 tization of those that were baptized by heretics; for "he 
 saith expressly, that " pope Stephen did then not only 
 maintain an error, but the very cause of heretics ; and that 
 against Christians and the very churcli of God."" ^And after 
 this he chargeth him with obstinacy and presumption. I 
 hope this is plain enough to shew, that St. Cyprian had no 
 great opinion of the Roman infallibility : or if he had it when 
 he writ to Cornelius, certainly he had changed it when he 
 wrote against Stephen. Rut I think it was no change ; and 
 that when he wrote to Cornelius, it was rhetoric, and no 
 more. 
 
 VIII. — Now if any man shall say that, in this point of 
 rebaptization, St. Cyprian himself was in the wrong opinion, 
 and pope Stephen in the right, I easily grant that ; but yet 
 that error of his takes not oif his judgmentj what he thought 
 of the papal or Roman infallibility in those times. For though 
 
 m For so St. Cyprian begins his epi- ad Pompeium contra Epist. Stephaui 
 
 stle to Cornelius; Legi literas tuas, fra- edit. ])er Erasmum, Basil, p 327. 
 ter, &c. And after: Sed eiiim lecta " Stephani fratris nostri obstinatio 
 
 alia epistola ttia, f'rater, &;c. S.Cyprian, dura. Ibid. p. 329. And it would be 
 
 lib. i. epist. 3. marked by the Jesuit and his A. C. 
 
 n Stephauus IVater noster ha>retico- tliat still it is Slcphani fratris nostri, 
 
 rum causam contra Christianos, et con- and not capitis, or siimmi pastoris 
 
 tra ecclesiam Dei asserere conatur. Cypr. nostri. 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 7 
 
 iifterwards P St. Cyprian's opinion was condemned in a council Sect. 3. 
 at Rome under Cornelius, and after that by pope Stephen, 
 and after both, in the first H council of Carthage; yet no one 
 word is there in that council which mentions this as an error, 
 that he thought pope Stephen miglit err in the faith, while 
 he proclaimed he did so. Tn which, though the particular 
 censiu-e which he passed on pope Stephen was erroneous, (for 
 Stephen erred not in that,) yet the general which results from 
 it (namely, that for all his being in the popedom, he might 
 err) is most true, 
 
 IX. — 2. The second Father which Bellarmine cites is 
 St. Jerome: his words are, "^The Roman faith, commended 
 l)y the apostle, admits not such i)rwstlgias, deceits, and delu- 
 sions into it, though an angel should preach it otherwise than 
 it was preached at first, (and) being armed and fenced by 
 St. Paul's authority, cannot be changed." Where, first, 1 will 
 not doubt but that St. Jerome speaks here of the faith ; for 
 the pra'stk/icv here mentioned are afterwards more plainly 
 expressed; for he tells us after, ''^xhat the bishop of Rome 
 had sent letters into the East, and charged heresy upon 
 Rufinus :" and further, " that Origen's books irein apx^Siv were 
 translated by him, and delivered to the simple people of the 
 church of Rome, that by his means they might lose the verity 
 of the faith which they had learned from the apostle." There- 
 fore the prwstigiw before- mentioned were the cunning illusions 
 of Rufinus, putting Oi-igen's book under the martyr Pam- 
 philus his name, that so he might bring in heresy the more 
 cunningly under a name of credit, and the more easily pervert 
 the people's faith. So, of the faith he speaks. And secondly, 
 T shall as easily confess, that St. Jerome's speech is most true, 
 Ijut I cannot admit the cardinal's sense of it ; for he imposes 
 upon the wovA fides : for by Romana fides, "the Roman faith," 
 
 P Caraiizri in Concil. C'artliag. sul) he read et jam si, for so the plare is 
 
 ('<)rii['l. fine. more plain, and more strong; but the 
 
 <l t'un. I answer is the same. 
 
 r Attamen scito Romanani fidem apo- s Deinde lit epistolas contra te ad 
 
 stohca voce hindatam ejusmodi pra-sti- Orientem mitteret, et cauterium tihi 
 
 gias non recipere, etiamsi angehis ahter ha-reseos innreret. Diceretque hhros 
 
 anniinciet, ipiam semel pra'dicatnm est, Origenis Trepi o.pxu>v, a te translatos, et 
 
 Panh autlioi-itate munitam non posse simjjhci ecclesiaj Roinana' jjlehi tradi- 
 
 •nintari. S. Ilieron. lih. iii. A])oh con- tos, nt fidei veritatem qnam ah apostolo 
 
 tra Ruflinum, toin. ii. edit. Paris. 15.^. diilicerant, per te perderent. S. Hieroii. 
 
 iol. 84. K. Peradventnre it is here to ihid. foL 85. K. 
 
 B 4 
 
8 Archbishop Laud against 
 
 Sect. 3. lie will understand the particular church of Rome ; which is 
 as much as to say, Romanos fideles^ the faithful of that 
 church ; and that no wily delusions, or cozenage in matter 
 of faith, can be imposed upon them. Now hereupon I return 
 to that of St. Cyprian : if fdes Romana must signify Jideles 
 Romanos, why may not perjidia before signify perfidos ? espe- 
 cially since these two words are commonly used by these 
 writers, as terms ' opposite ; and therefore, by the law of 
 opposition, may interpret each other proportionably. So with 
 these great masters, with whom it is almost grown to be, 
 quod volumus, rectum est, what we please shall be the author''s 
 meaning, perjidia must signify absolutely error in faith, or 
 misbelief; hut Jides must relate to the persons, and signify 
 the faithful of the Roman church. And now I conceive my 
 answer will proceed with a great deal of reason. For Romana 
 Jides, " the Roman faith," as it was commended by the apostle, 
 (of which St. Jerome speaks,) is one thing, and the particular 
 Roman church, of which the cardinal speaks, is another. The 
 faith, indeed, admits not prcestifjias, wily delusions, into it ; 
 if it did, it could not be the tchole and imdejiled faith of 
 Christ, which they learned from the apostle, and which is so 
 fenced by apostolical authority, as that it cannot be changed, 
 though an angel should preach the contrary. J3ut the parti- 
 cular church of Rome hath admitted p)rwstigias, divers crafty 
 conveyances, into the faith, and is not fenced, as the faith 
 itself is : and therefore, though an angel cannot contrary 
 that, yet the bad angel hath sowed tares in this. By which 
 means Romana Jides, though it be now the same it was for 
 the words of the Creed, yet it is not the same for the sense of 
 it ; nor for the super and prseter-structures built upon it, or 
 joined unto it. So the Roman faith, that is, the faith which 
 St. Paul taught the Romans, and after commended in them, 
 was all one with the catholic faith of Christ. For St. Paul 
 taught no other than that one ; and this one can never be 
 changed in or from itself by angel or devil. But in men's 
 hearts it may receive a change ; and in particular churches 
 
 t Qui cum fidei dux esse non potuit, rum iis non potest (ibesse perfidia? S. 
 
 ])eriidi;i» existat. S. f'ypi'iau. lil). i. e])ist. ^^g- epist. 2:;. — Qiianto potius lides 
 
 7. — Kideni ])erfidi,&c. Ilnd — Facti sunt aliena potest cousulere jiarvul", cui sua 
 
 ex ovibus vulpes, ex tidelibus pertidi. pertjdia, <Stc. 8. Aug. lib. iii. de Lib. 
 
 Optatus, lib. vii. — Quoniodo iis prosit Arbit. c. 23. 
 'luum baptizantur parentum fides, (juo- 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 9 
 
 it may receive a change ; and in the particular church of Sect. 3. 
 Eonie it hath received a change. And ye see St. Jerome 
 himself confesses that the pope himself was afraid " ne perde- 
 rent, lest by this art of Ruffinus the people might lose the 
 verity of the faith. Now that which can he lost can be 
 changed: for usually habits begin to alter before they be 
 quite lost. And that which may be lost among the people 
 may be lost among the bishops, and the rest of the clergy too, 
 if they look not to it; as it seems they after did not at 
 Rome, though then they did. Nay, at this time the whole 
 Roman church was in danger enough to swallow Origen's book, 
 and all the errors in it, coming under the name of Pamphi- 
 lus : and so St. Jerome himself expressly, and close upon the 
 place cited by Bellarmine. For he desires ^ Ruffinus to change 
 the title of the book, (that error may not be spread under the 
 specious name of Pamphilus,) and so to free from danger the 
 Roman simplicity : where, by the way, Roman unerring power 
 now challenged, and Roman simplicity then feared, agree not 
 very well together. 
 
 X. — 3. The third Father alleged by Bellarmine is y St. Gre- 
 gory Nazianzen. And his words are : " That ancient Rome 
 from of old hath the right faith, and always holds it, as 
 becomes the city which is governess over the whole world, to 
 have an entire faith in and concerning God." Now certainly 
 it became that city very well to keep the faith sound and 
 entire. And having the government of great part of the 
 world then in her power, it became her so much the more, as 
 her example thereby was the greater. And in St. Gregory 
 Nazianzen's time Rome did certainly hold both rectam et inte- 
 qram fidem, the right and the whole entire faith of Christ. 
 But there is nor promise nor prophecy in St. Gregory that 
 Rome shall ever so do. For his words are plain; decet 
 semper, it becomes that great city always to have, and to 
 hold too, integram fidem, the entire faith. But at the other 
 
 u Ne fidei veritatem, tiuam ah apo- bus habet lectam fuleni, ct semper eani 
 
 stolo didicerant, i)er te perdereiU ; ut retiuet, sicut decet urliem, qua; toti 
 
 j;,,p,-a. orlii pra'sidet, semper de Deo integi-aiu 
 
 X IVIuta titulum, et Romanam sim- lidem liabere. (iri'i;-. Naz. in Carmine 
 
 ])licitatem tanto jiericulo libera. Ibid, de vita sua ; ante medium, p. 9. edit, 
 
 fol. 84. K. Paris. 1C09. 
 
 y Vetiis Roma ab auti<piis tempori- 
 
10 Archhishop Laud against 
 
 Sect. 3. semper, it is ^retinet; that city from of old holds the right 
 faith yet : but ho saith not, retinehit semper, that the city of 
 Ivome shall retain it ever, no more than it shall ever retain 
 the empire of the world. Now it must bo assured, that it 
 shall ever hold the entire faith of Christ, before wo can be 
 assured that that particular church can never err, or be 
 infallible. 
 
 XL — Besides these, the cardinal names Cyrillus and llufi- 
 nus; but he neither tells us where, nor cites their words. 
 Yet I think I have found the most pregnant place in ^ St. 
 Cyril, and that makes clearly against him. For I find ex- 
 pressly these three things. First, that the church is inex- 
 pugnable, and that the gates of hell shall never premil against 
 it ; but that it shall in perpetmm manere, remain for ever. 
 And this all protestants grant. But this, that it shall not 
 fall away, doth not secure it from all kinds of error. Second- 
 ly, ]3ellarmine (piotes St. Cyril for the particular lloman 
 church ; and St. Cyril speaks not of the Roman at all, but 
 of the church of Christ, that is, the catholic church. Thirdly, 
 that the foundation and firmness which the church of Christ 
 hath, is placed not in or npon the ^person, much less the 
 successor of St. Peter ; but upon the '^ faith which, by God's 
 Spirit in him, he so firmly professed : which is the common 
 received opinion both of the ancient Fathers and the protest- 
 ants. Upon this rod; that is, upon this faith, will I haild my 
 church '>. So here is all the good he hath gotten by St. Cyril, 
 unless he can cite some other place of St. Cyril, which 1 believe 
 he cannot. 
 
 XII. — And for Rufinus, the place which Bellarminc aims 
 at is in his Exposition upon the Creed, and is quoted in part 
 
 z The words iii the (ireek are, i) f.uv tuum maneiis. S. Cyril. Alexaiul. Dial. 
 
 ^v iK irXiiovos, Kat vvv tr iariv diSpo- ile Trin. li!i. iv. ji. 2 78. Parisiis, an. 
 
 fjios. Il:ec quideni fuit din, et nunc 1 604.. 
 
 adhuc est rectigrada. "Eariu, est ; so b Et ego dico tild] i. e. tua' confes- 
 
 St. Gregory says; hut of an tcrrai, or a sioni, qua mihi dixisti, Tti es Chrhtus, 
 
 refinebit, he says nothing : nor is stvii- ik.c. Dion. Carthus. in S. Matt. xvi. 18. 
 
 per in the text of Nazianzen. c El super funic Petram] i. e. fidei 
 
 a Petram oi)inor per agnominationeni hujus fii-niitatem et fundamentnni. Vel 
 
 nihil aliud, (]uani inconcussam et firniis- super hanc Petram qiiam confessus es, 
 
 siniam discipuli lidem vocavit. In qua, i e. super iMeipsum lapidem aiigularem, 
 
 ecclesia Christi ita fundata et linnata i^c. Ibid, 
 
 esset, ut non laberetnr, et esset inex- d JMatt. xvi. 18. 
 jiugnabilis inferoruni portis, in perpe- 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 11 
 
 the e chapter before. But when all his words shall be laid Sect. 3 
 together, they will make no more for Bellarmine and his 
 cause than the former places have done. <" Rufinus his words 
 then run thus : " ]3efore I come to the words of the Creeds 
 this I think fit to warn you of, that in divers churches some 
 things are found added to the words (of the Creed). But in 
 the church of the city of Rome this is not found done : and, 
 as I think, it is, for that no heresy did take its rise or begin- 
 nino- there ; and for that the old custom is there observed, 
 namely, that they which are to receive the grace of baptism 
 do publicly repeat the Creed in the hearing of the people, 
 who would not admit such additions. But in other places, 
 (as far as I can understand,) by reason of some heretics, some 
 things were added, but such as were to exclude the sense 
 of their novel doctrine." Now these words make little for 
 Bellarmine, who cites them, and much against Rufinus that 
 uttered them. They make little for Bellarmine. First, be- 
 cause suppose Rufinus his speech to be true, yet this will 
 never follow. In Rufinus his time no heresy had taken its 
 beo-inning at Rome: therefore no heresy hath had rooting 
 there so many hundred years since. Secondly, Bellarmine 
 takes upon him there to prove that the particular church of 
 Rome cannot err. Now neither can this be concluded out of 
 Rufinus his words. First, because (as I said before) to argue 
 from non sumpsit to ergo sumere non potest, no heresy hath }'et 
 begun there, therefore none can begin there, or spring thence, 
 is an argument drawn ah actu ad potentiam negative, from the 
 act to the power of being ; which every novice in learning can 
 tell proceeds not negatively. And common reason tells every 
 man it is no consequence to say. Such a thing is not, or hath 
 not been, therefore it cannot be. Secondly, because though 
 it were true that no heresy at all did ever take its beginning 
 
 c Bellar. lib. iv. de Rom. Pont. cap. audiente, symliolum reddeie : et utiqiie 
 
 ,. ^ penult. adjectionem iinius salteni sermonis, eo- 
 
 f Illud non ini]M)rtnne commonen- rum (pii pra^cesserunt in tide, non ad- 
 
 dum puto, <iu()d in diversis ecclesiis ali- niittit auditns. In cifteris anteni locis, 
 
 qua in his verbis inveniuntur adjecta. quantum inteliigi datur, propter non- 
 
 In ecclesia tamen nrbis Konue hoc non nullos hiereticos addita qna>dam viden- 
 
 deprehenditur factum. Pro eo arliitror, tur, ])er qn:e novellw doctriiw sensus 
 
 quod neque ha!resis ulla illic sumpsit crederetur excludi, Sic. Kuffin. in Kx- 
 
 exordium, et mos ibi servatur antiquus, posit. Symbol, fut babetur inter C>i>er;i 
 
 eos qui gratiam baptismi susceptnri S. Cypriani) Pra't'at. Expos, 
 sunt, publico, id est, iidelium populo 
 
12 Archbishop Laud against 
 
 Sect. 3. at Rome, yet that can never prove that the particular church 
 of Rome can never err, (which is the thing in question.) For 
 suppose that no heresy did ever begin there, yet if any that 
 began elsewhere were admitted into that church, it is as full 
 a proof that that church can err, as if the heresy had been 
 hatched into that nest. For that church errs which admits an 
 heresy in it, as well as that which broaches it. Now Rufinus 
 says no more of the Roman church than nan sumpsit exordium, 
 no heresy took its beginning there ; but that denies not but 
 that some heretical taint might get in there : and it is more 
 than manifest that the most famous heresies, in their several 
 times, made their abode even at Rome. And it is observable 
 too that Bellarmine cites no more of Rufinus his words than 
 these, " In ecclesia urbis Romse neiiue lueresis ulla sumpsit 
 exordium, et mos ibi servatur antiquus,'"' as if this wore an 
 entire speech, whereas it comes in but as a reason given of the 
 speech precedent; and as if Rufinus made the church of 
 Rome the sreat observer of the customs of the church, whereas 
 he speaks but of one particular custom of reciting the Creed 
 before baptism. But after all this, I pray, did no heresy ever 
 beo-in at Rome? Where did Novatianism begin? At Rome 
 sure. For ^ Baronius, S Pamelius, and h Petavius, do all dispute 
 the point, whether that sect was denominated from Nova- 
 tianus, the Roman priest, or Novatus, the African bishop; 
 and they conclude for Novatian. He then that gave that 
 name is in all right the founder, and Rome the nest of that 
 heresy ; and there it continued with a succession of ' bishops 
 from Cornelius to Ocelestine, which is near upon two lumdi-ed 
 years. Nay, could Rufinus himself be ignorant that some 
 heresy began at Rome I No sure. For in this I nmst chal- 
 lenge him either for his weak memory or his wilful ei-ror. 
 For Ruffinus liad not only read Eusebius his history, but had 
 been at the pains to translate him. Now ^ Eusebius says 
 plainly, that some heretics spread their \'enom in Asia, some 
 
 •" Baron, torn. ii. an. 254. num. 63. nuomm dux Floiinus. Kiiseh. lib. v. 
 
 g Pamel. in Cyprian. Epist. 41. et 73. cap. 14. And in Knfinns his translation, 
 
 h Petavius in Epiphau liases. 50. c. 15. And then afterwards, c. 19 and 
 
 i Onuph. in Notis ad Plat, in Vita 20 : il^uaurias 5e rSiv eVi 'Pcifxr}s rhv 
 
 Cornelii. vyirj tt/s cVkAtjo /as Oecr/iihi' irapaxapaT- 
 
 k Ha-retici alii in morem venenato- toWwi/, &c. Now these taught that God 
 
 ruin serpentuni in Asiam et Phryniani was tiie author of sin. 
 
 irrepseruiit, ol 5' eVl 'Pw/xris ^Kfj.aCoy, 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 13 
 
 in Phrygia, and others grow at Rome ; and Florinus was the Sect. 3. 
 ringleader of them. And more clearly after. " Irenscus," 
 jsaith he, " directed divers epistles against this Florinus, and 
 his fellow Blastus, and condemns them of such heresies as 
 threw them and their followers into great impiety, &c. ; those 
 at Rome corrupting the sound doctrine of the church.''^ There- 
 fore most manifest it is that some heresy had its rise and 
 beginning at Rome. ]3ut to leave this slip of Rufinus : most 
 evident it is that Rufinus neither did nor could account the 
 particular church of Rome infallible ; for if he had esteemed 
 so of it, he would not have dissented from it in so main a 
 point, as is the canon of the scripture, as he plainly doth. 
 ' For reckoning up the canonical books, he most manifestly 
 dissents from the Roman church. Therefore either Rufinus 
 did not think the cliurch of Rome was infallible, or else the 
 church of Rome at this day reckons up more books within 
 the canon than heretofore she did. If she do, then she is 
 changed in a main point of faith, the canon of scripture, and 
 is absolutely convinced not to be infallible : for if she were 
 right in her reckoning then, she is wrong now ; and if she be 
 right now, she was wrong then : and if she do not reckon 
 more now than she did when Rufinus lived, then he reckons 
 fewer than she, and so dissents from her ; which doubtless he 
 durst not have done, had he thought her judgment infallible. 
 Yea, and he sets this mark upon his dissent besides, " "Hhat 
 he reckons up the books of the canon just so, and no other- 
 wise, than as he received them out of the monuments of the 
 forefathers ; and out of which the assertions of our faith are 
 to be taken." Last of all : had this place of Rufinus any 
 strength for the infallibility of the church of Rome, yet there 
 is very little reason that the pope and his clergy should take 
 any benefit by it. For " St. Jerome tells us, " that when 
 
 1 Kiif. in Ex]>osit. Synil). p. iS8. In ab eo exemj)lar epistolaj petere, cui 
 
 which reckoriint;- he ])laiiily ai^rees with niissa non est, &c. Vade jiotiiis Ro- 
 
 the church of England, Art. V^I. niani, et prtesens apud euni expostula, 
 
 m Novi et Veteris Testament! vohi- cur tihi et ahsenti et innocenti fecerit 
 
 niina, Ac. sicnt ex Patriim momnnentis injuriam. Prinnim, iit non reciperet 
 
 aicepiniiis. Uuf. in Svnih. p iSS. Et ex|)!)siti(inem fidei tufe, fjuain nnnn's (ut 
 
 hifc sunt <|n;e Patres intra canonem scrihis) ItaHa coniprotiavit, &c. Deinde, 
 
 conchisernnt. Et ex (juihus iidei nosli'a; ut lauterinni tihi lia'reseos, dinn nescis, 
 
 assertiones constare vohiernnt. Ibid, inureret. S. Hieron. Apol. 3. advers. 
 
 p. 189. Knffin. fol. 85. K. 
 
 " Si episcopi Roniani est, stulte facis 
 
i4 Archhishop Laud against 
 
 Sect. 3. Rufinus was angry with him for an epistle which he WTit not, 
 he plainly sent him to the bishop of Rome, and bid him 
 expostulate with him for the contumely put upon him, in that 
 he received not his exposition of the faith, which (said he) all 
 Italy api^roved : and in that he branded him also, dum nesci- 
 ret, (behind his back,) with heresy/' Now if the pope which 
 then was rejected this exposition of the Creed made by Rufi- 
 nus, and branded him besides with heresy, his sentence against 
 Rufinus was just or unjust : if unjust, then the pope erred 
 about a matter of faith ; and so neither he, nor the church of 
 Rome, infallible : if just, then the church of Rome labours to 
 defend herself by his pen, which is judged heretical by herself. 
 So, whether it were just or unjust, the church of Rome is 
 driven to a hard strait, when she must beg help of him whom 
 she branded with heresy, and out of that tract which she 
 herself rejected ; and so uphold her infallibility by the judg- 
 ment of a man, who, in her judgment, had erred so foully : 
 nor may she by any " law take benefit of a testimony which 
 herself hath defamed and protested against. 
 
 XIII. — With these Bellarmine is pleased to name six or 
 o seven popes, which, he saith, are all of this opinion. But of 
 popes' opinions he saith, that P " these testimonies will be con- 
 temned by the heretics." Good words, I pray. I know whom 
 the cardinal means by heretics very well ; but the best is, his 
 call cannot make them so. Nor shall I easily contemn seven 
 ancient bishops of Rome concurring in opinion, if apparent 
 verity in the thing itself do not force me to dissent ; and in 
 that case I shall do it without contempt too. This only I 
 will say, ^ that seven popes concurring in opinion shall have 
 less weight with me in their own cause than any other seven 
 of the more ancient Fathers. Indeed, could I swallow ^Bellar- 
 mine's opinion, that the pope's judgment is infallible, I would 
 then submit without any more ado. But that will never 
 
 n Quum qnis se velle personas tes- nisi conformiter ad legem divinam, na- 
 
 tium post publicationein repellere fuerit turalem et canoiiicam loquatur. So Jo. 
 
 protestatiis ; si ([uid pro ipso dixeriiit, Gerson, and the doctors of Paris, cited 
 
 lis non creditur. Extra. Tex. et ibi in Lib. Anon, de Ecclesiastica et Poli- 
 
 Gloss. c. Pra>sentinm 31. de Testibus. tica Potestate, c. 16. ed. Paris. 161 2. 
 
 o Lib. iv. c. .3. §. Ue altero ergo. Now these popes do not speak here con- 
 
 p Qua- etsi ab han-eticis contemnen- formably to these laws, 
 tnr. Lib. iv. c. 4 §. Addo etiam. r Lii). iv. de Horn. Pont. c. 3. in 
 
 q Nemini in sua causa credendum, initio. 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 15 
 
 down with me, unless I live till I dote, which I hope in God Sect. 3. 
 
 I shall not. 
 
 XIV. — Other proofs than these Bellarmine brings not, to 
 prove that the particular church of Rome cannot err in or 
 from the faith. And of what force these are to sway any 
 judgment, I submit to all indifferent readers. And having 
 thus examined ]3ellarmine\s proofs, that the particular church 
 of Rome cannot err in faith, I now return to A. C. and the A. C. p. 42. 
 Jesuit ; and tell them, that no Jesuit, or any other, is ever 
 able to prove any particular church infallible, 
 
 XV. — But for the particular church of Rome, and the pope 
 with it, erred it hath, and therefore may err : erred, I say, it 
 hath, in the worship of images, and in altering Chrisfs insti- 
 tution in the blessed sacrament, by taking away the cup from 
 the people ; and divers other particulars, as shall appear at 
 s after. And as for the ground which is presumed to secure 
 this church from eri-or, it is very remarkable how the t learned 
 cardinal speaks in this case ; for he tells us, that this propo- 
 sition, " So long as St. Peter's chair is at Rome, that particu- 
 lar church cannot err in the faith," is verissima, most true ; 
 and yet in the very next words it is fortasse tarn vera, perad- 
 venture as true as the former, that is, " That the pope, when 
 he teaches the whole church in those things which belong to 
 the faith, cannot err in any case." What ! Is that proposition 
 most true ? and yet is it but at a peradventuro it is as true 
 as this l Is it possible any thing should be absolutely most 
 true, and yet under a peradventuro that it is but as true as 
 another truth? But here, without all peradventure, neither 
 proposition is true. And then indeed Bellarmine may say, 
 witliout a/ortossg, that this proposition, "The particular church 
 of Rome cannot err, so long as the see apostolic is there," is 
 as true as this ; " The pope cannot err while he teaches the 
 whole church in those things which belong to the faith :" for 
 neither of them is true. But he cannot say that either of 
 them is verissima, most true, when neither of them hath 
 truth. 
 
 s §. ^^. Consid. 7. Num. 5. et 12. c. 4. §. 2. edit. Lugduii. 1596. And 
 
 t Romana ecclesia particulai-is non that first proposition is tliis : Summus 
 
 potest errare, persisteiite Romae aposto- pontifex, cum totam ecclesiam dotet, in 
 
 iica sede. Propositio h»c est verissima, his quse ad fidem pertinent nullo casu 
 
 et fortasse tani vera (juam ilia prima errare potest. Ihid. c. 3. §• i. 
 de poutifice. Lih. iv. de Rom. Pont. 
 
16 ArcJihishop Laud against 
 
 Sect. 3. XVI. — 2. Secondly, if the particular church of Rome be 
 infallible, and can neither err in the faith, nor fall from it, 
 then it is because the see apostolic cannot bo transferred from 
 Rome, but must ever, to the consummation of the world, 
 remain there, and keep that particular church from erring. 
 Now to this what says Bellarmine ? What ! why he tells us, 
 I' that it is a pious and most probable opinion to think so. 
 And he reckons four probabilities that it shall never be 
 removed from Rome. And I will not deny but some of them 
 are fair probabilities ; but yet they are but probabilities, and 
 so unable to convince any man. Why but then, what if a 
 man cannot think as Bellarmine doth, but that, enforced by 
 the light of his understanding, he must think the quite con- 
 trary to this which Bellarmine thinks pious, and so probable ? 
 What then ? ^Vhy then ^ Bellarmine himself tells you, that 
 the quite contrary proposition to this, namely, that " St. 
 Peter's chair may be severed from Rome, and that then that 
 particular church may err, is neither heretical nor manifestly 
 erroneous." So then, by Bellarmine's own confession, I am 
 no heretic, nor in any manifest error, if I say (as indeed I do, 
 and think it too) that it is possible for St. Peter s chair to be 
 carried from Rome, and that then at least, by his own argu- 
 ment, that church may err. 
 
 XVII. — Now then, upon the whole matter, and to return 
 A. C. p. 42. to A. C. If that lady desired to rely upon a particular infal- 
 lible church, it is not to be found on earth. Rome hath not 
 that gift, nor her bishop neither. And Bellarmine (who I 
 think was as able as any champion that church hath) dares 
 not say it is either heresy or a manifest error to say, that the 
 apostolic see may be removed thence, and that church not 
 only err in faith, but also fall quite away from it. Now I, 
 for my part, have not ignorance enough in me to believe that 
 that church, which may apostatize at some one time, may not 
 err at another ; especially since both her erring and failing 
 may arise from other causes besides that which is mentioned 
 by the cardinal. And if it may err, it is not infallible. 
 
 u Pia et i)robabilissima senteiitia est, nihilominus. 
 cathedram Petri nou posse separari a x Contraria sententia nee est haere- 
 
 Koma, et proiiide Romanam ecdesiam tica, nee nianifeste erronea. liil). iv. de 
 
 absolute non posse errare, vel deficere. Rom. Pont. e. 4. §. At secundiini. 
 Lib. iv. de Rom. Pont. c. 4. §. Quod 
 
Fisher the Jemit. 17 
 
 jf. The (Question was, Which was that church ^ A friend of Sect. 3-5. 
 the lady's would needs defend, that not only the Roman, 
 but also the Greek church was right. 
 13. When that honourable personage answered, I was not Sect. 4. 
 by to hear. But I presume he was so far from granting that 
 only the Eoman church was right, as that he did not grant it 
 right ; and that he took on him no other defence of the poor 
 Greek church than was according to truth. 
 
 jf. I told him that the Greek church had plainly changed, 
 and taught false in a point of doctrine concerning the 
 Holy Ghost ; and that I had heard say, that even his 
 majesty should say that the Greek church having erred 
 against the Holy Ghost had lost the Holy Ghost. 
 13. You are very bold with his majesty, to relate him upon Sect. 5. 
 hearsay. My intelligence serves me not to tell you what his 
 majesty said : but if he said it not, you have been too credu- 
 lous to believe and too sudden to report it. Princes deserve, 
 and were wont to have, more respect than so. If his majesty 
 did say it, there is truth in the speech ; the error is yours 
 only, by mistaking what is meant by losing the Holy Ghost. 
 For a particular church may be said to lose the Holy Ghost 
 two ways, or in two degrees, i . The one, when it loses such 
 special assistance of that blessed Spirit, as preserves it from 
 all dangerous errors and sins, and the temporal punishment 
 which is due unto them : and in this sense the Greek church 
 did perhaps lose the Holy Ghost ; for they erred against him, 
 they sinned against God. And for this, or other sins, they 
 were delivered into another Babylonish captivity under the 
 Turk ; in which they yet are, and from which God in his 
 mercy deliver them. But this is rather to be called an error 
 circa Spiritum Sanctum, about the doctrine concerning the 
 Holy Ghost, than an error against the Holy Ghost. 2. The 
 other is, when it loses not only this assistance, but all assist- 
 ance ad hoc, to this, that they may remain any longer a 
 true church ; and so Corinth and Ephesus, and divers other 
 churches, have lost the Holy Ghost : but in this sense the 
 whole Greek church lost not the Holy Ghost ; for they con- 
 tinue a true church, in the main substance, to and at this day, 
 
 c 
 
18 Archhisho]) Laud against 
 
 Sect, s-y, though erroneous in this point which you mention, and per- 
 haps in some other too. 
 
 ip. The lady's friend, not knowing what to answer, called 
 in the bishop, who sitting down first excused himself as 
 one unprovided, and not much studied in controversies ; 
 and desiring that in case he should fail, yet the pro- 
 testant cause might not be thought ill of — 
 
 Sect. 6. 33. This is most true : for I did indeed excuse myself, and 
 I had great reason so to do. And my reason being grounded 
 upon modesty, for the most part, there I leave it. Yet this 
 it may be fit others should know, that I had no information 
 where the other conferences brake off; no instruction at all 
 what should be the ground of this third conference, nor the 
 full time of four and twenty hours to bethink myself. And 
 this I take upon my credit is most true : whereas you make 
 the sifting of these and the like questions to the very bran, 
 your daily work, and came throughly furnished to the busi- 
 ness, and might so lead on the controversy to what yourself 
 pleased, and I was to follow as I could, y St. Augustine said 
 once, Scio me invalidum esse, I know I am weak ; and yet he 
 made good his cause : and so perhaps may I against you. 
 And in that I preferred the cause before my particular credit, 
 that which I did was with modesty, and according to reason. 
 For there is no reason the weight of this whole cause should 
 rest upon any one particular man ; and great reason that the 
 personal defects of any man should press himself, but not 
 the cause. Neither did I enter upon this service out of any 
 forwardness of my own, but commanded to it by supreme 
 authority. 
 
 ^. It having an hundred better scholars to maintain it 
 than he. To which I said, there were a thousand better 
 scholars than I to maintain the catholic cause. 
 
 5tJ. In this I had never so poor a conceit of the protestants' 
 
 cause, as to think that they had but an hundred better than 
 myself to maintain it. That which hath an hundred may 
 have as many more as it pleases God to give and more than 
 
 y De Util. Ciedendi, c. 2. 
 
Fisher the Jesuit . 19 
 
 you. And I shall ever be glad that the church of England Sect. 7-9. 
 (which, at this time, if my memory reflect not amiss, I named) 
 may have far more able defendants than myself. I shall 
 never envy them, but rejoice for her. And I make no ques- 
 tion, but that if I had named a thousand, you would have 
 multiplied yours into ten thousand for the catholic cause (as 
 you call it). And this confidence of yours hath ever been 
 fuller of noise than proof. But you proceed. 
 
 iff. Then the question about the Greek church being pro- 
 posed, I said as before, that it had erred. 
 
 23. Then I think the question about the Greek church was Sect. 8. 
 proposed. But after you had with confidence enough not 
 spared to say, that what I would not acknowledge in this 
 cause, you would wring and extoi-t from me ; then indeed you 
 said as before, that it had erred : and this no man denied. 
 But every error denies not Christ, the foundation ; or makes 
 Christ deny it, or thrust it from the foundation. 
 
 Jp. The bishop said, that the error was not in points 
 fundamental. 
 
 %. I. — I was not so peremptory. My speech was, that divers Sect. 9. 
 learned men, and some of your own, were of opinion, that (as 
 the Greeks expressed themselves) it was a question not 
 simply fundamental. I know and acknowledge that error, 
 of denying the procession of the Holy Ghost from the Son, 
 to be a grievous error in divinity. And sure it would have 
 grated the foundation, if they had so denied the procession 
 of the Holy Ghost from the Son, as that they had made an 
 inequality between the persons. But since their form of 
 speech is, " ^that the Holy Ghost proceeds from the Father 
 by the Son, and is the Spirit of the Son," without making 
 any difference in the consubstantiality of the persons, I dare 
 not deny them to be a true church for this ; though I confess 
 them an erroneous church in this particular. 
 
 H. — Now that divers learned men were of opinion, that a 
 Filio and ^^^r Filmm in the sense of the Greek church 
 was but a question in modo loquendi., in manner of speech, 
 
 z Noil ex Filio, sed Spiritiim Filii esse dicimiis. Damasceii. lilj. i. Fid. 
 Orth. c. 1 1. Et Patris per Filiiira. ibid. 
 
 2 
 
20 Archbishop Laud against 
 
 Sect. 9. aand therefore not fundamental, is evident. ''The master and 
 his scholars agree upon it. " The Greeks," saith he, " confess 
 the Holy Ghost to be the Spirit of the Son, with the apostle, 
 Galat. iv., and the Spirit of truth, St. John xvi. And since non 
 est aliud, it is not another thing to say, the Holy Ghost is the 
 Spirit of the Father and the Son, than that he is or pro- 
 ceeds from the Father and the Son ; in this they seem to 
 agree with us in emidem fidei sententiam^ upon the same 
 sentence of faith, though they differ in words." Now in this 
 cause, where the words differ but the sentence of faith is 
 the same, ^penitus eadem, even altogether the same, can the 
 point be fundamental 1 You may make them no church (as 
 '^Bellarmine doth) and so deny them salvation, which cannot 
 be had out of the true church ; but I for my part dare not 
 so do. And Rome in this particular should be more moderate, 
 if it be but because this article (Filioqne) was added to the 
 Creed by herself. And it is hard to add and anathematize too. 
 HI. — It ought to be no easy thing to condemn a man of 
 heresy in foundation of faith ; much less a church ; least of 
 all so ample and large a church as the Greek, especially so 
 as to make them no church. Heaven gates were not so easily 
 shut against multitudes when St. Peter wore the keys at his 
 
 a Pluralitas in voce, salvata unitate q. i. — Antiquonim Graecorum a Latinis 
 
 in re, non repugnat unitati fidei. Du- discrepantia in voce potiiis est, et modo 
 
 rand. lib. 3. d. 25. q. 2. explicaiidi emaiiationein Spiritus Sancti 
 
 b Magist. I. Sent. d. 1 1. D. Sane sci- quam in ipsa re, &c. .Jodocits Clictoveus 
 
 endum est, quod licet in prsesenti arti- in Damasc. lib. i. Fid. Orth. c. u. — Et 
 
 culo a nobis Gra?ci verbo discordent, quidam ex Grtecis concedunt, quod sit 
 
 tamen sensu non difFerunt, &c — Ban- a Filio, vel ab eo profluat. Thom p. i. 
 
 dinus, lib. i. de Trin. d. 11. et Bona- q. 36. A. 2. C. — Et Thomas ipse dieit, 
 
 vent, in 1 Sent. d. 11. A. i. q. i. §. 12. Sjiiritiiin Sanctum procedere mediate a 
 
 Licet Gra^cis infensissimus, quum di.vit Filio. II). A. 3. ad i. saltern ratione per- 
 
 Graecos objicere curiositateni Romanis, sonarum si)irantiinn. 
 addendo Fi/iorjue ; quia sine hnjus ar- Respondeo cum Bessarione et Gen- 
 
 ticuli professione salus erat ; non re- nadio, Damascenum non negasse Spi- 
 
 spondet negando saluteni esse, sed dicit ritum Sanctum procedere ex Filio, quod 
 
 tantum opportimam fuisse determina- ad rem attinet, qumn diserit Spiritum 
 
 tionem propter periculum. Et postea esse imaginem Filii, et per Filium, sed 
 
 §. 15 : Sunt qui volunt sustinere opin- existimasse tutius dici per Filiimi, quam 
 
 ionem Gra?corum, et Latinorum, distin- ex Filio, quantinn ad modum loquendi, 
 
 gueudo duplicem modum procedendo &c. Bellarm. lib. 2. de Christo, c. 27. §. 
 
 Sed forte si duo gapicntes, nnus Gra;- Respondeo igitur. Et Toilet, in S. Job. 
 
 cus, alter Latinos, uterque verus ama- 15. Ar. 25. et Lutberan. Resp. ad 
 
 tor veritatis, et non propria dictionis, Resp. 2. .Jeremiad Patriarchse. 
 &c. de hac visa contrarietate disquire- c Eadem penitus sententia, ubi supra, 
 
 rent, pateret utique tandem ipsam con - Clictov. 
 
 trarietatem non esse veraciter realem, d Bellarm. 4. de Notis Eccl. cap. 8. 
 
 sicut est vocalis. Scotus in i. Sent. d. 1 1. §. Quod autem apud Grpecos. 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 21 
 
 own girdle. And it is good counsel which ^Alphonsus a Sect. 9,10. 
 Castro, one of your own, gives : " Let them consider that 
 pronounce easily of heresy, how easy it is for themselves to 
 err." Or if you will pronounce, consider what it is that 
 separates from the church simply, and not in part only. I 
 must needs profess, that I wish heartily (as well as ^ others) 
 that those distressed men, whose cross is heavy already, had 
 been more plainly and moderately dealt withal, though they 
 think a diverse thing from us, than they have been by the 
 church of Rome. But hereupon you say you were forced — 
 
 £■. Whereupon I was forced to repeat what I had formerly 
 brought against Dr. White, concerning points funda- 
 mental. 
 
 23. I,— Hereupon it is true, that you read a large discourse Sect. 10. 
 out of a book printed, which, you said, was yours ; the par- 
 ticulars (all of them at the least) I do not now remember, nor 
 did I then approve. But if they be such as were formerly 
 brought against Dr. White, they are by him formerly answered. 
 The first thing you did was the S righting of St. Augustine ; 
 which sentence I do not at all remember was so much as named 
 in the conference, much less was it stood upon, and then righted 
 by you. Another place of St. Augustine indeed was (which 
 you omit, but it comes after) about tradition, to which I 
 remit it. But now you tell us of a great proof made out of 
 this h place : for these words of yours contain two propositions : 
 one, " That all points defined by the church are fundamental ;'*' 
 the other, " That this is proved out of this place of St. 
 Augustine." 
 
 II. — I. For the first, That all points defined by the church 
 are fundamental. It was not the least means by which Rome 
 grew to her greatness, to blast every opposer she had with 
 
 e Lib. 3. coiit. Hseres. fol. 93. A. Ut very learnedly, that my corrupt copy 
 
 videant hi, qui facile de ha^resi pro- hath ri(j]ilbig instead of reading the 
 
 nuntiant, quam facile etiatn ipsi errent : sentence of St. Austin. Whereas I here 
 
 et inteUigant, non esse tarn leviter de use the word righting, not as it is op. 
 
 haeresi censendum, &c. In verho Beati- posed to reading, (as any man may dis- 
 
 tudo. cern A. C. palpably mistakes,) but for 
 
 f Junius, Animad. in Bellarm. cont. 2. doing right to St Austin. And if 1 had 
 
 1. 3. c. 23. meant it for writing, I should not have 
 
 S F. First righting the sentence of spelled it so. 
 
 St. Austin : Ferendus est disputator er- li I5y which is proved, That all points 
 
 rans, &c. Here A. C. p. 44. tells us defined by the church are fundamental. 
 
 ^3 
 
22 Archhlshop Laud against 
 
 Sect. 10. the name of heretic or schismatic ; for this served to shrivel 
 the credit of the persons. And the persons once brought 
 into contempt and ignominy, all the good they desired in the 
 church fell to dust for want of creditable persons to back and 
 support it. To make this proceeding good in these later 
 years, this course (it seems) was taken. The school that 
 must maintain (and so they do) " that all points defined by 
 the church are thereby ' fundamental, ^ necessary to be be- 
 lieved, 'of the substance of the faith;" and that, though it 
 be determined quite "^ extra scripturam. And then "leave 
 the wise and active heads to take order, that there be strength 
 enough ready to determine what is fittest for them. 
 
 III. — J3ut since these men distinguish not, nor you, between 
 the church in general, and a general council, which is but her 
 representation for determinations of the faith ; though I be 
 very slow in sifting or opposing what is concluded by lawful, 
 general, and consenting authority ; though I give as much as 
 can justly be given to the definitions of councils truly general ; 
 nay, suppose I should grant (which I do not) that general 
 councils cannot err ; yet this cannot down with me, that all 
 points even so defined are fundamental. For deductions are 
 not prime and native principles, nor are superstructures 
 foundations. That which is a foundation for all cannot be 
 one and another to different Christians in regard of itself; 
 for then it could be no common rule for any, nor could the 
 souls of men rest upon a shaking foundation. No : if it be a 
 true foundation, it must be common to all, and firm under 
 all ; in which sense the articles of Christian faith are funda- 
 mental. And o Irenreus lays this for a ground, that the v>'hole 
 church (howsoever dispersed in place) speaks this with one 
 mouth : " He which among the guides of the church is best 
 able to speak utters no more than this ; and less than this 
 the most simple doth not utter."" Therefore the Creed (of 
 
 i Your own word. Greg. Naz. de differen. vit;p. Cercopes 
 
 k Incoiiciissa fide ab omnibus Tliom. vocat astutos, et veteratori;« cujusdam 
 
 2. 2*. q. I. Art. lo. C. iniprobitatis episcopos, qui artibus suis 
 
 1 Scotus I. Sent. d. ii. q. i. ac dolis omnia concilia perturbabant. 
 
 m Ecclesiffi voces etiam extra scriptu- Scbol. ib. 
 ram. Stap. Relect. con. 4. q. i. Ar. 3. o Quum enim una et eadem fides sit, 
 
 Qua^ matiiro judicio definivit, Slc. Soli- neque is (jui mtiltum de ipsa dicere 
 
 dum est, et etiamsi nullo scripturanim potest, plusquam oportet, dicit; neque 
 
 aut evident!, aiit probabili testiniouio (jui parum, ipsam imminuit. Iran. lib. i. 
 
 confirmaretur. ib. advers. Haeres. c. 3. 
 
 n Et penes Cercopes victoria sit ; 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 23 
 
 which he speaks) is a common, is a constant foundation. Sect. lo. 
 And an explicit faith must be of this in them which have the 
 use of reason; for both guides and simple people, all the 
 church, utter this. 
 
 IV. — Now many things are defined by the church which 
 are but deductions out of this, which (suppose them deduced 
 right) move far from the foundation ; without which deduc- 
 tions explicitly believed, many millions of Christians go to 
 heaven ; and cannot therefore be fundamental in the faith. 
 True deductions from the article may requii-e necessary belief 
 in them which are able, and do go along with them from the 
 principle to the conclusion. But I do not see, either that the 
 learned do make them necessary to all, or any reason why 
 they should. Therefore they cannot be fundamental ; and yet 
 to some men's salvation they are necessary, 
 
 V. — Besides, that which is fundamental in the faith of 
 Christ is a rock immovable, and can never be varied. 
 Never P. Therefore, if it be fundamental after the church 
 hath defined it, it was fundamental before the definition, else 
 it is movable ; and then no Christian hath where to rest. 
 And if it be immovable, as q indeed it is, no decree of a 
 council, be it never so general, can alter immovable verities, 
 no more than it can change immovable natures. Therefore 
 if the church in a council define any thing, the thing defined 
 is not fundamental because the church hath defined it, nor 
 can be made so by the definition of the church, if it be not so 
 in itself. For if the church had this power, she might make 
 a new article of the faith, "^ which the learned amongst your- 
 selves deny : for the articles of the faith cannot increase in 
 substance, but only in explication s. And for this I will be 
 judged by Bellarmine, ^who, disputing against Amb.Catharinus 
 
 P Resolutio Occhami est, quod nee Nihil transmtitare, &c. Athan. Epist. 
 
 tota ecclesia, nee concilium gerierale, ad .Jovin. de Fide, 
 
 nee siimmus pontifex potest facere arti- r Occham. Almain. in 3. Sent. d. 25. 
 
 culum, quod non fuit articulus. Sed in q. I. 
 
 duhiis propositionihus potest ecclesia s Thoni. 2. 28e. q. I. Ar. 7. C. 
 
 determinare, an sint catholica?, &c. t Fides divina non ideo liabet certitu- 
 
 Tamen sit determinando non facit quod dinem, quia toti ecclesiae communis est : 
 
 sint catholicw, quum prius assent ante sed quia nititur authoritate Dei, qui nee 
 
 ecclesise determinationem, &c. Almain. falli nee fallere potest, quum sit ipsa 
 
 in 3. d. 25. q. r. Veritas, lib. 3. de Justif. c. 3. §. Quod 
 
 H Regula fidei una omnino est, sola vero concilium, 
 
 ilia immobilis, et irreformabilis. Tertul. Probatio ecclesiaj facit ut oinni!)us 
 
 de Virg. vel. cap. i. In hac tide, &;c. innoteseat objectura (fidei divinae) esse 
 
 04 
 
24 Archbishop Laud against 
 
 Sect. 10. about the certainty of faith, tells us, " that divine faith hath 
 not its certainty because it is catholic, i. e. common to the 
 whole church, but because it builds on the authority of God, 
 who is truth itself, and can neither deceive nor be deceived." 
 And he adds, " that the probation of the church can make it 
 known to all, that the object of divine faith is revealed from 
 God, and therefore certain, and not to be doubted ; but the 
 church can add no certainty, no firmness to the word of God 
 revealing it. 
 
 VI, — Nor is this hard to be further proved out of your own 
 school ; for " Scotus professeth it in this very particular of 
 the Greek church : " If there be," saith he, " a true real dif- 
 ference between the Greeks and the Latins about the point 
 of the procession of the Holy Ghost, then either they or we 
 be vere hwretici^ ti'uly and indeed heretics." And he speaks 
 this of the old Greeks long before any decision of the church 
 in this controversy : for his instance is in St. Basil and Greg. 
 Nazianz. on the one side, and St. Hierorae, Augustine, and 
 Ambrose on the other. " And who dares call any of these 
 heretics f is his challenge. I deny not but that Scotus adds 
 there, that howsoever this was before, yet ex quo, from the 
 time that the catholic church declared it, it is to be held as 
 of the substance of faith. But this cannot stand with his 
 former principle, if he intend by it, that whatsoever the 
 church defines shall be ipso facto, and for that determination's 
 sake, fundamental. For if before the determination (sup- 
 posing the diiference real) some of those worthies were truly 
 heretics, (as he confesses,) then somewhat made them so. 
 And that could not be the decree of the church, which then 
 was not : therefore it must be somewhat really false that 
 made them so ; and fundamentally false, if it made them 
 heretics against the foundation. But Scotus was wiser than 
 to intend this. It may be he saw the stream too strong for 
 him to swim against, therefore he went on with the doctrine 
 of the time, " that the church's sentence is of the substance 
 of faith ;" but meant not to betray the truth : for he goes no 
 further than ecclesia declaravit, since the church hath declared 
 it, wliich is the word that is used by divers^. 
 
 revelatum a Deo, et propter hoc certum ibid. §. At iiiquit. 
 
 et itulubitatiim ; iioii autem tribnit fir- u Scotus in i Sent. fl. ii. q. i. 
 
 niitatem verbo Dei aliquid revelantis. x Bellarm. lib. 2. de Cone. Auth. c. 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 25 
 
 VII. — Now the ymastei" teaches, and the ^ scholars too, Sect. lo. 
 that every thing which belongs to the exposition or declara- 
 tion of another intits est, is not another contrary thing, but is 
 contained within the bowels and nature of that which is in- 
 terpreted, from which, if the declaration depart, it is faulty 
 and erroneous ; because, instead of declaring, it gives another 
 and contrary a sense. Therefore, when the church declares 
 any thing in a council, either that which she declares was 
 int'us or extra, in the nature and verity of the thing, or out 
 of it. If it were extra, without the nature of the thing 
 declared, then the declaration of the thing is false, and so, 
 far from being fundamental in the faith '\ If it were int^s, 
 within the compass and nature of the thing, though not open 
 and apparent to every eye, then the declaration is true, but 
 not otherwise fundamental than the thing is which is de- 
 clared : for that which is intus cannot be larger or deeper 
 than that in which it is ; if it were, it could not be intus. 
 Therefore nothing is simply fundamental because the church 
 declares it, but because it is so in the nature of the thing 
 which the church declares. 
 
 VIII. — And it is a slight and poor evasion that is com- 
 monly used, that the declaration of the church makes it fun- 
 damental quoad nos, in respect of us ; for it doth not that 
 neither : for no respect to us can vary the foundation. The 
 church's declaration can bind us to peace and external obe- 
 dience, where there is not express letter of scripture and 
 sense agreed on ; but it cannot make any thing fundamental 
 to us that is not so in iF^own nature. For if the church 
 can so add that it can by a declaration make a thing to be 
 
 12. Concilia cum definiunt, noii faciunt de fide, etsi non ita declarata. Scotus 
 
 aliquid esse infallibilis veritatis, sed in I. d. 1 1. q. I. in fine. Kwretici niulta 
 
 declarant. Exi)licare, Bonavent. in I. d. quse erant implicita fidei nostras com- 
 
 II. A. I. q. I. ad finem. Explanare, de- piilenint explicare. Bonavent. in i. d. 
 
 clarare. Thom. i. q. 36. A. 2. ad. 2. et 2. 1 1. A. i. Q. i. ad finem. Tho. i. q. 36. 
 
 2. q. I. A. 10. ad. i. A. 2. ad. 2. Qiiamvi.s apostolica .sedes, 
 
 Quid unquain aliud (ecclesia) con- aut generale concilium de h»resi cen- 
 
 ciliornm decretis enisa est, nisi ut quod sere possit, non tamen ideo assertio ali- 
 
 antea simpliciier credebatur, hoc idem qua erit ha-resis, quia ecclesia defini\'it, 
 
 postea diligentius crederetur. Vin. Lirin. sed quia fidei catholiciP repugnat. Ec- 
 
 cont. hier. c. 32. clesia siquidem sua derinitione non facit 
 
 y Sent. i. D. 11. talem assertionem esse hwresin, quuin 
 
 z Alb. Mag. in i. Sent. D. 11. Art. 7. etiamsi ipsa non definivisset, esset h;e- 
 
 a Hoc semper, nee quicquam prae- resis ; sed id efficit ut pateat, &c. Al- 
 
 terea. Vin. Lirin. c. 32. phon. a Castro, HI), i. advers. ha?res. 
 
 b In nova hajresi Veritas prius erat c. 8. fol. 21. D. 
 
26 Archbishop Laud against 
 
 Sect. 10. fundamental in the faith that was not, then it can take a 
 thing away from the foundation, and make it, by declaring, 
 not to be fundamental ; which all men grant no power of the 
 church can do. " '^ For the power of adding any thing con- 
 trary, and of detracting any thing necessary, are alike for- 
 bidden e," and alike denied. Now nothing is more apparent 
 than this to the eye of all men, that the church of Rome 
 hath determined, or declared, or defined (call it what you 
 will) very many things that are not in their own nature 
 fundamental, and therefore neither are nor can be made so 
 by her adjudging them. Now to all this discourse, that the 
 church hath not power to make any thing fundamental in the 
 faith that intrinsically and in its own nature is not such, 
 A. 0. is content to say nothing. 
 
 IX. — 2. For the second, " That it is proved by this place 
 of St. Augustine, That all points defined by the church are 
 fundamental.'''' You might have given me that place cited in 
 the margin, and eased my pains to seek it; but it may be 
 there was somewhat in concealing it ; for you do so extraor- 
 dinarily right this place, that you were loath (I think) any 
 body should see how you wrong it. The place of St. Augustine 
 is this, against the Pelagians, about remission of original sin 
 in infants : " ^ This is a thing founded : an erring disputer is 
 to be borne with in other questions not diligently digested, 
 not yet made firm by full authority of the church ; their error 
 is to be borne with, but it ought not to go so far that it 
 should labour to shake the foundation itself of the church."" 
 This is the place : but it can never follow out of this place 
 (I think) that every thing defined by the church is funda- 
 mental. 
 
 X. — For, first, he speaks of a foundation of doctrine in 
 scripture, not a church-definition. This appears : for, few 
 fines before, he tells us, "gThere was a question moved to 
 St. Cyprian, whether baptism was concluded to the eighth 
 day, as well as circumcision l And no doubt was made then 
 
 d Ecclesia noii amputat necessaria, dus est disputator errans : ibi fereiidus 
 
 non apponit superfliia. Vin. Lirin. c. 32. est error, non taiitum progredi debet, 
 
 e Deut. iv. 2. ut etiam fundanieiitum ipsum ecclesiae 
 
 f Fiindata res est. In aliis qurestio- qiiatere nioliatur. August. Serm. 14. de 
 
 iiibus non diligenter digestis, nondum verb. a])Ost. c. 12. 
 
 plena ecclesiae authoritate lirmatis feren- g Ibid. c. 20. 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 27 
 
 of the ^beginning of sin; and that, 'out of this thing, about Sect. lo. 
 which no question was moved, that question that was made 
 was answered." And again ; " ^ That St. Cyprian took that, 
 which he gave in answer from the foundation of the church, 
 to confirm a stone that was shaking." Now St. Cyprian, in 
 all the answer that he gives, hath not one word of any defini- 
 tion of the church : therefore ea res, that thing by which he 
 answered, was a foundation of prime and settled scripture- 
 doctrine, not any definition of the church : therefore, that 
 which he took out of the foundation of the church, to fasten 
 the stone that shook, was not a definition of the church, but 
 the foundation of the church itself, the scripture, upon which 
 it is builded ; as appeareth in the ' Milevitan council, where 
 the rule by which Pelagius was condemned is the rule of 
 m scripture. Therefore St. Augustine goes on in the same 
 sense, that the disputer is not to be borne any longer, that 
 " "shall endeavour to shake the foundation itself upon which 
 the whole church is grounded." 
 
 XI. — Secondly, if St. Augustine did mean hy foumled, and 
 founclation, the definition of the church, because of these words, 
 '• This thing is founded, this is made firm by full authority of 
 the church ;" and the words following these, " to shake the 
 foundation of the church ;" yet it can never follow, out of any 
 or all these circumstances, (and these are all,) that all points 
 defined by the church are fundamental in the faith. For, 
 first, no man denies but the church is a ^foundation, that 
 things defined by it are founded upon it; and yet hence it 
 cannot follow that the thing that is so founded is fundamental 
 in the faith : for things may be " P founded upon human 
 authority," and be very certain, yet not fundamental in the 
 faith. Nor yet can it follow, " This thing is founded, there- 
 fore every thing determined by the church is founded." Again, 
 that which follows, that those things are not to be opposed 
 which are made firm by full authority of the church, cannot 
 conclude they are therefore fundamental in the faith : for full 
 
 h Origine peccati. m Rom. v. is;. 
 
 i Ex ea re, unde imlla erat qusestio, n Ut funilamentum ipsum ecclesia? 
 
 soluta est exorta qusestio. quatere nioliatur. 
 
 k Hoc de fundamento ecclesiae sump- o i Tim. iii. 15. 
 
 sit ad confii-mandum lapidem nutantem. P Mos fundatissimiis. S.August, ep. 
 
 1 Concil. Milevit. c. 2. 28. 
 
28 Archbishop Laud against 
 
 Sect. 10. church-authority (always the time that included the holy 
 apostles being passed by, and not comprehended in it) is but 
 church-authority; and church-authority, when it is at full 
 sea, is not m simply divine, therefore the sentence of it not 
 fundamental in the faith. And yet no erring disputer may 
 be endured to " shake the foundation" which the church in 
 council lays. But plain scripture, with evident sense, or a full 
 demonstrative argument, must have room, where a wrangling 
 and erring disputer may not be allowed it. And there is 
 r neither of these but may convince the definition of the 
 council, if it be ill founded. And the articles of the faith 
 may easily prove it is not fundamental, if indeed and verily it 
 
 be not so. 
 
 XII.— And I have read somebody that says, (is it not 
 youO that things are fundamental in the faith two ways: 
 one, in their inatter, such as are all things which be so in 
 themselves ; the other, in the manner, such as are all things 
 that the church hath defined and determined to be of laith : 
 and that so some things that are de modo, of the manner of 
 being, are of faith. But, in plain truth, this is no more than 
 if you should say, some things are fundamental in the faith, 
 and some are not. For, wrangle while you will, you shall 
 never be able to prove that any thing which is but de modo, 
 a consideration of the manner of being only, can possibly be 
 fundamental in the faith. 
 
 XIII. — And since you make such a foundation of this place, 
 I will a little view the mortar with which it is laid by you. 
 It is a venture but I shall find it ^untempered. Your assertion 
 is, " All points defined by the church are fundamental." Your 
 proof, this place ; " Because that is not to be shaken which 
 is settled by 'full authority of the church." Then (it seems) 
 your meaning is, that this point there spoken of, " the remis- 
 sion of original sin in baptism of infants," was defined, when 
 St. Augustine wrote this, by a full sentence of a general 
 council. First, if you say it was, "Bellarmine will tell you it 
 
 q Stapleton. Relect. cont. 4. q. 3. apei-tissimum in evangelic. S. August. 
 
 Art. I. cont. Fund. c. 4. 
 
 r Quae qiiidem, si tarn manifesta mon- s Ezek. xiii. 11. 
 stratur, ut in dubium venire non possit, t Plena ecclesiis authdritate. 
 pra-ponenda est onniibus illis rebus, qui- u De Author. Concil. lib. ii. c. 5. §. A 
 
 bus in catholica teneor. Ita si aliquid solis particularibus. 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 29 
 
 is false ; and that tlie Pelagian heresy was never condemned Sect. lo. 
 in an oecumenical council, but only in nationals. But BcUar- 
 mine is deceived : for while the Pelagians stood out impu- 
 dently against national councils, some of them defended Nes- 
 torius ; which gave occasion to the first "Ephesine council to 
 excommunicate and depose them. And yet this will not serve 
 your turn for this place ; for St. Augustine was then dead, 
 and therefore could not mean the sentence of that council in 
 this place. Secondly, if you say it was not then defined in 
 an oecumenical synod, plena author itas ecclesiw, " the full 
 authority of the church" there mentioned, doth not stand 
 properly for the decree of an oecumenical council, but for 
 some national ; as this was condemned in a y national council : 
 and then, the full authority of the church here is no more 
 than the full authority of the church of ^Afric. And I hope 
 that authority doth not make all points defined by it to be 
 fundamental. You will say. Yes, if that council be confirmed 
 by the pope. And then I must ever wonder why St. Augus- 
 tine should say " the full authority of the church," and not 
 bestow one word upon the pope, by whose authority only that 
 council, as all other, have their fulness of authority in your 
 judgment : an inexpiable omission, if this doctrine concerning 
 the pope were true. 
 
 XIV. — But here A. C. steps in again to help the Jesuit; A. C. p. 45. 
 and he tells us, over and over again, " That all points made 
 firm by full authority of the church are fundamental C so, firm 
 he will have them, and therefore fundamental. But I must 
 tell him, that, first, it is one thing in nature, and religion too, 
 to be firm, and another thing to be fundamental : these two 
 are not convertible. It is true that every thing that is funda- 
 mental is firm ; but it doth not follow that every thing that 
 is firm is fundamental. For many a superstructure is exceed- 
 ing firm, being fast and close joined to a sure foundation ; 
 which yet no man will grant is fundamental. Besides, what- 
 soever is fundamental in the faith is fundamental to the 
 church, which is one by the » unity of faith. Therefore, if 
 every thing defined by the church be fundamental in the 
 
 X Can. I. et 4. was but a provincial of Numidia, not a 
 
 y Concil. IMilevit. can. 2. plenary of Afric. 
 
 z Nay, if your own Capellus be true, a A Me. enim una ecclesia dicitur 
 
 (De Appel. Eccl. Afric. c. 2. n. 5.) it una. Almain. in 3. Sent. Dist. 25. q. i. 
 
30 Archhishop Laud against 
 
 Sect. 10. faith, then the church's definition is the church's foundation. 
 And so upon the matter tlie church can lay her own founda- 
 tion ; and then the church must be in absohite and perfect 
 beins: before so much as her foundation is laid. Now this is 
 so absurd for any man of learning to say, that by and by 
 after A. C. is content to affirm, not only that the prima credi- 
 Mlia, the articles of faith, '• but all which so pertains to super- 
 natural, divine, and infallible Christian faith, as that thereby 
 Christ doth dwell in our hearts, &c. is the foundation of the 
 church under Christ, the prime foundation."" And here he is 
 out again : for, first, all which pertains to supernatui-al, divine, 
 and infallible Christian faith, is not by and by '^ fundamental 
 in the faith to all men. And, secondly, the whole discourse 
 here is concerning faith, as it is taken object ive, for the object 
 of faith and thing to be believed : but that faith by which 
 Christ is said to dwell in our hearts is taken subjective, for 
 the habit and act of faith. Now, to confound both these in 
 one period of speech can have no other aim than to confound 
 the reader. But to come closer both to the Jesuit and his 
 defender, A. C. If all points made firm by full authority of 
 the church be fundamental, then they must grant that every 
 thing determined by the council of Trent is fundamental in 
 the faith : for with them, it is firm and catholic which that 
 council decrees. Now that council decrees, "^That orders 
 collated by the bishop are not void, though they be given 
 without the consent or calling of the people, or of any secular 
 power r"" and yet they can produce no author that ever 
 acknowledged this definition of the council fundamental in the 
 faith. It is true, I do not grant that the decrees of this 
 council are made by full authority of the church ; but they 
 do both grant and maintain it : and therefore it is arpionen- 
 tum ad hominem, a good argument against them, that a thing 
 
 b Aliquid pertinet ad fidem duplici- Thorn, p. i. q. 32. A. 4. C. '■ There are 
 
 ter. Uno modo directe, sicut ea qua; thiriji^s necessary to the faith, and things 
 
 noliis sunt principahter divinitus tra- which are hut accessory," <Si.c. Hooker, 
 
 dita, ut Deum esse trinum, &c. Et Ecch Pol. b. iii. §. 3. 
 
 circa ha»c opinari falsum hoc ipso indu- c gj quis dixerit ordines ah episcopis 
 
 cit hteresin, &c. AHo modo indireete. collates sine populi vel potest;itis ssecu- 
 
 Ex quibus consequitur aliquid contra- laris consensu ant vocatione irritos esse ; 
 
 rium lidei, &c. Et in his aliquis potest anathema sit. Cone. Trid. Sess. 23. 
 
 falsum opinari absque periculo ha'resis, can. 7. 
 donee sequela ilia ei innotescat, &c. 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 31 
 
 so defined may be firm, for so this is, and yet not funda- vSect. lo. 
 mental, for so this is not. 
 
 XV. — But A. 0. tells us further, "That if one may deny a. C. p. 45. 
 or doubtfully dispute against any one determination of the 
 church, then he may against another, and another, and so 
 against all ; since all are made firm to us by one and the 
 same divine revelation, sufficiently applied by one and the 
 same full authority of the church ; which being weakened in 
 any one cannot be firm in any other." First, A. C. might 
 have acknowledged that he borrowed the former part of this 
 out of ^Vincentius Lirinensis. And as that learned Father 
 uses it I subscribe to it, but not as A. C. applies it : for Vin- 
 centius speaks there de cathoUco dogmate, of catholic maxims ; 
 and A, C. will force it to every determination of the church. 
 Now catholic maxims, which are properly fundamental, are §.38. n. 21, 
 certain prime truths deposited with the church, and not so 
 much determined by the church as published and manifested, 
 and so made firm by her to us. For so eVincentius ex- 
 pressly. Where all that the church doth is but ut hoc idem 
 quod antea^ that the same thing may be believed which was 
 before believed, but vAih. more light and clearness, and (in 
 that sense) with more firmness than before. Now in this 
 sense give way to a disputator errans, every cavilling disputer, 
 to deny or quarrel at the maxims of Christian religion, any 
 one, or any part of any one of them ; and why may he not 
 then take liberty to do the like of any other, till he have 
 shaken all I But this hinders not the church herself, nor any 
 appointed by the church, to examine her own decrees, and to 
 see that she keep dogmata deposita, the principles of faith 
 unblemished and uncorrupted. For if she do not so, but that 
 ^novitia veterihus, new doctrines be added to the old, the 
 church, which is sacrarium r^eritatis, the repository of verity, 
 may be changed in hipanar erroribm, (I am loath to English 
 it.) By the church then this may, nay, it ought to be done ; 
 
 d Abdicata enim qiialibet parte catho- ut quod antea simpliciter credebatur, 
 
 lici dogniatis, ab"a quoque atque item hoc idem postea diligeritius crederetur, 
 
 alia, &c. Quid aliud ad extremum se- &c. Vin. Lirin. cont. Iljeres. c. 32. 
 quetur, nisi ut totum pariter repudie- f Impionim et turpium errorum lu- 
 
 tur? Vin. Lirin. cont. Ha>res. c. 31. paiiar; ubi erat ante castae et incor- 
 
 e Ecclesia depositorum apud se dog- niptaj sacrarium veritatis. Vin. Lirin. 
 
 matum custos, &c. Denique quid un- cont. Ha'res. c. 31. 
 quam conciliorum decretis enisa est, nisi, 
 
32 Archbishop Laud against 
 
 Sect. to. however, every wrangling disputer may neither deny, nor 
 doubtfully dispute, much less obstinately oppose the deter- 
 minations of the church, no not where they are not docimata 
 deposita^ these deposited principles. But if he will be so bold 
 to deny or dispute the determinations of the church, yet 
 that may be done without shaking the foundation, where the 
 determinations themselves belong but to the fabric, and not 
 to the foundation. For a whole frame of building may be 
 shaken, and yet the foundation where it is well laid remain 
 A. C. p. 46. firm. And therefore after all, A. 0. dares not say the foun- 
 dation is shaken, but only in a sort. And then it is as true, 
 that in a sort it is not shaken. 
 
 XVI, — 2. For the second part of his argument, A. C must 
 pardon me if I dissent from him. For first, '' All deter- 
 minations of the church are not made firm to us by one and 
 the same divine revelation," For some determinations of the 
 church are made firm to us per chirographum Zscripturw, 
 by the handwriting of the scripture ; and that is authentical 
 indeed. Some other decisions, yea and of the church too, 
 are made, or may be (if ^ Stapleton inform us right), without 
 an evident, nay without so much as a probable testimony 
 of holy writ. But 'Bellarmine falls quite off in this, and 
 confesses in express terms, " That nothing can be certain 
 by certainty of faith, unless it be contained immediately in 
 the word of God, or be deduced out of the word of God by 
 evident consequence." And if nothing can be certain but so, 
 then certainly no determination of the church itself, if that 
 determination be not grounded upon one of these, either 
 express word of God, or evident consequence out of it. So 
 here is little agreement in this great point between Stapleton 
 and Bellarmine. Nor can this be shifted off, as if Stapleton 
 spake of the word of God written, and Bellarmine of the 
 word of God unwritten, (as he calls tradition.) For Bellar- 
 mine treats there of the knowledge which a man hath of the 
 certainty of his own salvation. And I hope A. C. will not 
 tell us, there is any tradition extant unwritten by which par- 
 
 g Vin. Lirin. cont. Hieres. c. 52. titudine fidei, nisi aut immediate con- 
 
 h Etiamsi millo scriptiirarum aut tineatur in verbo Dei, aut ex verbo 
 
 evidenti aut probabili testimonio, &c. Dei per evidentem conseqtientiam dedu- 
 
 Stapleton, Relect. cont. 4. q. i. Art. 3. catur. Bellarm. lib. iii. de Justificat. 
 
 i Non potest aliquid eertum esse cer- c. 8. §. Prima ratio. 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 33 
 
 ticular men may have assurance of their several salvations, s^ect. lo. 
 
 Therefore Bellarmine's whole disputation there is quite beside 
 
 the matter : or else he must speak of the written word, and 
 
 so lie cross to Stapleton, as is mentioned. But to return. 
 
 If A. C. will, he may, but I cannot believe, that a definition 
 
 of the church wliich is made by the express w^ord of God, 
 
 and another which is made without so much as a probable 
 
 testimony of it, or a clear deduction from it, are made firm 
 
 to us by one and the same divine revelation. Nay, I must 
 
 say in this case, that the one determination is firm by divine 
 
 revelation, but the other hath no divine revelation at all, but 
 
 the church's authority only. 
 
 2. Secondly, I cannot believe neither, " that all deter- 
 minations of the church are sufficiently applied by one and 
 the same full authority of the church.'' For the authority of 
 the church, though it be of the same fulness in regard of 
 itself, and of the power which it commits to general councils 
 lawfully called, yet it is not always of the same fulness of 
 knowledge and sufficiency, nor of the same fulness of con- 
 science and integrity, to apply dogmata fide'i., that which is 
 dogmatical in the faith. For instance, I think you dare not 
 deny but the council of Trent was lav»'fully called ; and yet 
 I am of opinion, that few, even of yourselves, believe that the 
 council of Trent hath the same fulness with the council of 
 Nice, in all the forenamed kinds or degrees of fulness. 
 Thirdly ; suppose " that all determinations of the church are 
 made firm to us by one and the same divine revelation, and 
 sufficiently applied by one and the same full authority ;" yet 
 it will not follow that they are all alike fundamental in the 
 faith. For I hope A. C. himself will not say, that the de- 
 finitions of the church are in better condition than the pro- 
 positions of canonical scripture. Now all propositions of 
 canonical scripture are alike firm, because they all alike pro- 
 ceed from divine revelation ; but they are not all alike fun- 
 damental in the faith. For this proposition of Christ to St. 
 Peter and St. Andrew, Follow me^ and I vnll make you Jishers 
 ofmen^., is as firm a truth as that which he delivered to his 
 disciples. That he must die, and rise af/aiii the third day^ ; for 
 
 ^ Matt. iv. itj. ' Matt. xvi. 21. 
 
34 Archbishoj) Laud against 
 
 8eft. 10, II. both proceed from the same divine revelation, out of the 
 mouth of our Saviour ; and both are .sufficiently applied by 
 one and the same full authority of the church, which receives 
 the whole Gospel of St. Matthew to be canonical and infallible 
 scripture. And yet both these propositions of Christ are not 
 alike fundamental in the faith. For I dare say no man shall 
 be saved (in the ordinary way of salvation) that believes not 
 the death and the resurrection of Christ. And I believe 
 A. C dares not say that no man shall be saved into whose 
 capacity it never came that Christ made St. Peter and 
 Andrew lishers of men. And yet should he say it, nay, 
 should he shew it siih annuJo piscatoris, no man will believe 
 it that hath not made shipwreck of his common notions. 
 Now if it be thus between proposition and proposition is- 
 suing out of Christ's own mouth, I hope it may well be so 
 also between even just and true determinations of the church ; 
 that supposing them alike true and firm, yet they shall not 
 be alike fundamental to all men's belief. 
 
 ^. Secondly, I required to know what points the bishop 
 would account fundamental. He said, all the points of 
 the Creed were such. 
 Str. II. 13. I. — Against this I hope you except not. For since 
 the "1 Fathers make the Creed the rule of faith ; " since the 
 agreeing sense of scripture with those articles are the two 
 reo-ular precepts by which a divine is governed about the 
 faith ; since your own council of » Trent decrees. That it is 
 that principle of faith in which all that profess Christ do 
 necessarily agree, et fundamentmn firmimi et unicuni, not the 
 firm alone, but the only foundation ; since it is excommunica- 
 tion vijjso jure for any man to contradict the articles con- 
 tained in that Creed ; since the whole body of the faith is so 
 contained in the Creed, as that the q substance of it was be- 
 lieved even before the coming of Christ, though not so ex- 
 pressly as since in the number of the articles; since ■'Bel- 
 
 m Tertull. Apol. contra Gentes, c. 47. P Bonavent. il>id. Dub. 2. et 3. in 
 
 de veland. Virg. c. i. S. August. 8erm. literain. 
 
 le. de Temp. cap. 2. Rulin. in Svnib. a Tliora. 2. 2a^ q. I. Art. 7. c. 
 
 apud Cyprian, p. 3^7- ' I'ellarm. lil.. iv. de Verb. Dei non 
 
 » Alb. Mag. in 1. Smt. D. 11. A. 7. script, c. 1 1. ^ Primum est. 
 
 " Concil. Trident. Sess. 3. 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 35 
 
 larminc confesses, that all things simply necessary for all Sect. 1 1. 
 men's salvation are in the Creed and the Decalogue ; what 
 reason can you have to except ? And yet, for all this, every- . 
 thing fundamental is not of a like nearness to the foundation, 
 nor of equal primeness in the faith. And my granting the 
 Creed to be fundamental doth not deny, but that there are 
 ^quwdam prima credibilia, certain prime principles of faith, 
 in the bosom whereof all other articles lay wrapped and folded 
 up. One of which, since Christ, is that of 'St. John; Ever?/ 
 spirit that con/esseth Jesus Christ come in the flesh is of God. 
 And one, both before the coming of Christ and since, is that 
 of St. Paul ; ^He that comes to God must believe that God is, 
 and that he is a retvarder of them that seeTc him. 
 
 II. — Here A. C. tells you, " That either I must mean, that A. C. p. 46. 
 those points are only fundamental which are expressed in 
 the Creed, or those also which are infolded. If I say those 
 only which are expressed, then," saith he, " to believe the scrip- 
 tures is not fundamental, because it is not expressed. If I 
 say those which are infolded in the articles, then some un- 
 written church traditions may be accounted fundamental." 
 The truth is, I said, and say still, that all the points of the 
 Apostles' Creed, as they are there expressed, are fundamental. 
 And therein I say no more than some of your best learned 
 have said before me. But I never either said, or meant, that 
 they only are fundamental : that they are ^fmidamentum 
 iinicum, the only foundation, is the council of Trent's ; it is 
 not mine. Mine is, " That the belief of scripture to be the 
 word of God and infallible," is an equal, or rather a pre- 
 ceding prime principle of faith, with or to the whole body 
 of the Creed. And this agrees (as before I told the Jesuit) 
 with one of your own great masters, Albertus Magnus > ; who 
 is not far from that proposition in terminis. So here the 
 very foundation of A. C.'s dilemma falls off. For I say not, 
 that only the points of the Creed arc fundamental, whether 
 expressed or not expressed : that all of them are, that I say. 
 And yet, though the foundation of his dilemma be fallen 
 
 s Thorn. 2. 2fe. q. I. A. 7. C. fidei est concors scripturarum seiisus 
 
 ' I Jolin iv. 1. " Ilel). xi. 6. cum articulis fidei : ipiia. illis duoliu.s 
 
 " Cone. Trident. Sess. 3. repilaiihus pra'ceptis regitur theo- 
 
 y In I Sent. D. 11. A. 7. Regnla logus. 
 
 O 
 
 D 
 
36 Archbishop Laud against 
 
 Sect. 1 1, 1 2. away, I will take the boldness to tell A. C, that if I had said 
 that those articles only which are expressed in the Creed are 
 fundamental, it would have been hard to have excluded the 
 scripture, upon which the Creed itself in every point is 
 grounded ; for nothing is supposed to shut out its own foun- 
 dation. And if I should now say that some articles are 
 fundamental which are infolded in the Creed, it would not 
 follow that therefore some unwritten traditions were funda- 
 mental. Some traditions I deny not true and firm, and of 
 great both authority and use in the church, as being aposto- 
 lical, but yet not fundamental in the faith : and it would be 
 a mighty largo fold which should lap up traditions within the 
 Creed. As for that tradition, that the books of holy scrip- 
 tures are divine, and infallible in every part, I will handle that 
 when I come to the ^ proper place for it. 
 
 ip. I asked, how then it happened (as Mr. Rogers saith) 
 that the English church is not yet resolved what is the 
 right sense of the article of Christ's descending into 
 hell. 
 Se t. 1 r. 5J, I. — The English church never made doubt (that I know) 
 what was the sense of that article. The words are so plain, 
 they bear their meaning before them. She was content to 
 put that a article among those to which she requires subscrip- 
 tion ; not as doubting of the sense, but to pi^event the cavils 
 of some who had been too busy in crucifying that article, and 
 in making it all one with the article of the cross, or but an 
 exposition of it. 
 
 II. — And surely, for my part, I think the church of Eng- 
 land is better resolved of the right sense of this article than 
 the church of Rome ; especially if she must be tried by her 
 wi'iters, as you try the church of England by ]Mr. Rogers : 
 for you cannot agree whether this article be a mere tradition, 
 or whether it hath any place of scripture to warrant it. 
 '^ Scotus and ^ Stapleton allow it no footing in scripture ; but 
 dBollarmine is resolute that this article is everywhere in 
 scripture ; and e Thomas grants as much for the whole Creed. 
 
 z Sect. \(i. num. i. d Scriptiirn' ])assim hoc doceiit. Bel- 
 
 a Art. III. larm. de Christ, hh. iv. c. 6 et 12. 
 1> Scotus in I. D. ir. q. I. '" Thor.i. 2. 2ie. q. i. A. 9. ad i. 
 
 c iftapletoHj BjL'lett. Con. 5. q. 5. Art. I. 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. Sll 
 
 The church of England never doubted it ; and ^St. Augustine Sect. 1 2, 13. 
 
 proves it. 
 
 III. — And yet again you are different for the sense : for you 
 ao-ree not whether the soul of Christ, in tridm mortis, in the 
 time of his death, did go down into hell really, and was 
 present there, or virtually, and by effects only: for S Thomas 
 holds the first, and ii Durand the latter. Then you agree not 
 whether the soul of Christ did descend really and in essence 
 into the lowest pit of hell and place of the damned, as ' Bellar- 
 mine once held probable, and pi'oved it ; or really only into 
 that place or region of hell which you call limhum 2^afnim, 
 and then, but virtually, from thence into the lower hell ; to 
 which kBellarmine reduces himself, and gives his reason, 
 because it is the 1 common opinion of the school. Now the - 
 church of England takes the words as they are in the Creed, 
 and believes them without further dispute, and in that sense 
 which the ancient primitive Fathers of the church agreed in. 
 And yet, if any in the church of England should not be 
 throughly resolved in the sense of this article, is it not as 
 lawful for them to say, '' I conceive thus or thus of it, yet if 
 any other way of his descent be found truer than this, I deny 
 it not, but as yet I know no other," as it was for m Durand 
 to say it, and yet not impeach the foundation of the faith 1 
 
 S, The bishop said that Mr. Rogers was but a private man. 
 
 But (said I) if Mr. Rogers (writing as he did by public 
 
 authority) be accounted only a private man, — 
 
 U. I. — I said truth when I said Mr. Rogers was a private Sect. 13. 
 
 man. And I take it, you will not allow evei-y speech of every 
 
 man, though allowed by authority to have his books printed, 
 
 to be the doctrine of the church of Rome. " This hath been 
 
 f S. August, ep. 99. Sent. Dist. 22. q. 3. num. 9. 
 
 ? Per suam essentiam. Thom. p. 3. " And this was an ancient fault too, 
 
 q. 52. A. 2. C. for St. ^Vugastine checks at it in liis 
 
 h Diu-and. in 3. D. 22. q. 3. time. Noli coUigere calumnias ex epi- 
 
 i Uellarm. de Christ, lib. iv. c. 16. scoporum sci-i]itis, sive Hilarii, sive Cy- 
 
 k Bellarm. Recog. p. 11. priani et Agrippini. Primo, quia hoc 
 
 1 Sequuntur enim. Tliom. p. 3. q-S^. genus literarum ah authoritate canonis 
 
 A. 2. distinguendum est. Non enim sic le- 
 
 m Non est pcrtinaciter asserendum, guntnr tanquam ita ex iis testimonium 
 
 quin anima Christi per alium modum proferatur, nt contra sentire non liceat, 
 
 nobis ignotum potuerit descendere ad sicubi forte aliter sentirent, quam veri- 
 
 infernum : nee nos negamus aliuin mo- tas postulat. S. August, ep. 48, &.c. 
 
 dum esse forsitan \-eriorem ; sed fate- And yet these were far greater men in 
 
 mur nos ilium ignorare. Durand. in 3. their generations tlian 3Ir. Kogers was. 
 
 ^3 
 
38 
 
 Archbishop Laud ac/ainst 
 
 Sect. 13. oft compkiined of on both sides — the imposing particular 
 men's assertions upon the church — yet I see you mean not to 
 leave it. And surely, as controversies arc now handled (by 
 some of your party) at this day, I may not say it is the sense 
 of the article in hand, but I have long thought it a kind of 
 descent into hell to be conversant in them. I would the 
 authors would take heed in time, and not seek to blind the 
 people, or cast a mist before evident truth, lest it cause a 
 final descent to that place of torment. But since you will 
 hold this course, Stapleton was of greater note with you than 
 Mr. Rogers his Exposition, or Notes upon the Articles of the 
 Church of England, is with us : and as he, so his Relection. 
 And is it the doctrine of the church of Home which Stapleton 
 affirms, " ''The scripture is silent that Christ descended into 
 hell, and that there is a catholic and an apostolic church T 
 If it bo, then what will become of the pope's supremacy over 
 the whole church ? Shall he have his power over the catholic 
 church given him expressly in the scripture, in the vh^s, to 
 enter, and in ^pasce, to feed when he is in, and when he had 
 fed, to ^confirm; and in all these, not to err and fail in his 
 ministration ? and is the catholic church, in and over which 
 he is to do all these great things, quite left out of the scrip- 
 ture? Belike the Holy Ghost was careful to give him his 
 power, yes, in any case, but left the assigning of his great 
 cure, the catholic church, to tradition. And it were well for 
 him if he could so prescribe for what he now claims. 
 
 II. — But what if after all this ISIr. Rogers there says no 
 such thing? as in truth he doth not. His words are, "^AU 
 Christians acknowledge he descended ; but in the interpreta- 
 tion of the article there is not that consent that were to be 
 wished." What is this to the church of England more than 
 others ? And again, " ^till we know the native and undoubted 
 sense of this article." Is Mr. Rogers' " we" the church of 
 England, or rather his and some others' judgment in the 
 church of England ? 
 A. C. p. 47. III. — Now hero A. C. will have somewhat again to say, 
 though, God knows, it is to little purpose. It is, " That the 
 
 Sta])l. Cont. 5. q- 5. A. i. 
 V ]Matt. xvi. 19. 
 f| .John xxi. 15. 16. 
 r Luke xxii. 32. 
 
 s Rogers in Articulis Ecdes. Angl. 
 Alt. III. 
 t Il)i(l. 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 39 
 
 Jesuit urged JVlr. Rogers"' book because it was set out by^ect. ij. 
 public authority, and because the book bears the title of the 
 Catholic Doctrine of the Church of England/' A. C. may un- 
 doubtedly urge Mr. Rogers, if he please ; but ho ought not to 
 say that his opinion is the doctrine of the church of England, 
 for neither of the reasons by him expressed. First, not 
 because his book was publicly allowed : tV>r many books 
 among them, as well as among us, have been printed by 
 public authority, as containing nothing in them contrary to 
 faith and good manners, and yet containing many things in 
 them of opinion only or private judgment, which yet is far 
 from the avowed positive doctrine of the church, the church 
 having as yet determined neither way by open declaration 
 upon the words or things controverted. And this is more 
 frequent among their schoolmen than among any of our con- 
 troversers, as is well known. Nor, secondly, because his book 
 bears the title of the Catholic Doctrine of the Church of Eng- 
 land : for suppose the worst, and say Mr. Rogers thought a 
 little too well of his own pains, and gave his book too high a 
 title ; is his private judgment therefore to be accounted the 
 catholic doctrine of the churcli of England ■ Surely no ; no 
 more than I should say, every thing said by "Thomas or 
 '' Bonaventure is angelical or seraphical doctrine, because one 
 of these is styled in the church of Rome seraphical, and the 
 other angelical doctor. And yet their works are printed by 
 public authority, and that title given them. 
 
 IV. — " Yea, but our private authors,"''' saith A. C, " are not A. C. i). 47. 
 allowed (for aught I know) in such a like sort to express our 
 catholic doctrine in any matter subject to question." Here 
 are two limitations which Avill go far to bring A. C. off, 
 whatsoever I shall say against him : for, first, let me instance 
 in any private man that takes as much upon him as Mr. Rogers 
 doth, he will say he knew it not. his assertion here being no 
 other than " for aught he knows.'"' Secondly, if he be unwilling 
 to acknowledge so much, yet he will answer. It is not just in 
 such a like sort as Mr. Rogers doth it, that is, perhaps, it is 
 not the very title of his book. But well then ; is there never 
 a private man allowed in tlie church of Rome to express your 
 
 « Aiifj^elici I). S. Tiioin. sumnia. \t'iit. Doctoris Seraphici in lib. iii. Sent. 
 
 X C'elebratissiiiii Patris Itom. I'oiia- DisjJiitat. 
 
 D 4 
 
40 Archbishop Laud against 
 
 Sect. 13, 14. catholic doctrine in any matter subject to question^ What! 
 not in any matter? Were not Vega and Soto two private 
 men ? Is it not a matter subject to question, to great question 
 in these days, whether a man may be certain of his being in 
 the state of salvation, certitudine Jidei, by the certainty of 
 faith? Doth not yBellarmine make it a controversy? and is 
 it not a part of your catholic faith, if it be determined in the 
 z council of Trent? And yet these two great friars of their 
 time, Dominicus Soto and Andreas Yega% were of contrary 
 opinions, and both of them challenged the decree of the 
 council ; and so, consequently, your catholic faith to be as 
 each of them concluded : and both of them wrote books to 
 maintain their opinions, and both of their books were pub- 
 lished by authority. And therefore I think it is allowed in 
 the church of Eome to private men to express your catholic 
 doctrine, and in a matter subject to question. And therefore 
 also, if another man in the church of England should be of 
 a contrary opinion to Mr. Rogers, and declare it under the 
 title of the catholic doctrine of the church of England, this 
 were no more than Soto and Vega did in the church of Rome. 
 
 A. C. p. 47. And I, for my part, cannot but wonder A. C. should not know 
 it ; for he says that, for aught he knows, private men are not 
 allowed so to express their catholic doctrine. And in the 
 same question both Oatharinus and ^ Bellarmine take on them 
 to express your catholic faith, the one differing from the other 
 almost as much as Soto and Vega, and perhaps in some 
 respect more. 
 
 • 
 
 £■. But if Mr. Rogers be only a private man, in what book 
 may we find the protestants' public doctrine ? The bishop 
 answered that to the Book of Articles they were all 
 sworn, — 
 Sect. 14. iJ. I. — What ! was I so ignorant to say the articles of the 
 church of England were the public doctrine of all the pro- 
 testants? or that all the protestants were sworn to the arti- 
 cles of the church of England, as this speech seems to imply I 
 Sure I was not. Was not the immediate speech before of 
 
 y Belhirm.de J\islilic. lib.iii. c. i et 14. concilii Trideiitiiii. 
 
 z Hiiic concilio catholici omues inge- a Hist. Concil. Trident, lib. ii. p. 245. 
 
 Ilia sua et jiidicia sponte subji(;iiiiit. edit. Lat. Leidai, 1622. 
 Bellami. de Justific. lib, iii, c. 3. §. Sed b Bellarm. de Justific. lib. iii. c. 3. 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 41 
 
 the church of England^ and how comes the subject of the Sect, m- 
 sj^ecch to be varied in the next hues ? Nor yet speak I this 
 as if other protestants did not agree with the church of 
 England in the chiefest doctrines, and in the main exceptions 
 which they jointly take against the Roman church ; as ap- 
 pears by their several confessions. But if A. C. will say A. C. p. 47- 
 (as he doth), " That because there was speech before of the 
 church of England, the Jesuit understood me in a limited 
 sense, and meant only the protestants of the English church ;" 
 be it so ; there is no great harm done ^but this, that the 
 Jesuit offers to inclose me too much. For I did not say that 
 the book of articles only was the continent of the church of 
 England's public doctrine : she is not so narrow, nor hath 
 she purpose to exclude any thing which she acknowledges 
 hers; nor doth she wittingly permit any crossing of her 
 public declarations; yet she is not such a shrew to her 
 children as to deny her blessing, or denounce an anathema 
 against them, if some peaceably dissent in some particulars 
 remoter from the foundation, as your own schoolmen differ. 
 And if the church of Rome, since she grew to her greatness, 
 had not been so fierce in this course, and too particular 
 in determining too many things, and making them matters 
 of necessary belief, which had gone for many hundreds of 
 years before only for things of pious opinion, Christendom 
 (I persuade myself) had been in happier peace at this day 
 than (I doubt) we shall ever live to see it. 
 
 II.— Well; but A. C. will prove the church of England a A. C. p. -;8. 
 shrew, and such a shrew; for, in her Book ^of Canons, she 
 excommunicates every man who shall hold any thing con- 
 trary to any part of the said articles. So A. C. But surely, 
 these are not the very words of the canon ; nor, perhaps, the 
 sense. Not the words ; for they are, " Whosoever shall affirm 
 that the articles are in any part superstitious or erroneous," 
 &c. And perhaps not the sense ; for it is one thing for a 
 man to hold an opinion privately within himself, and another 
 thing boldly and publicly to affirm it. And again, it is one 
 thing to hold contrary to some part of an article, which, per- 
 haps, may be but in the manner of expression ; and another 
 
 c And therefore A. C. needs not make such a noise about it as he doth, 
 p. 48. ^ Can. 5. 
 
42 Arclihisliop Laud against 
 
 Sect. 14, 15. thing positively to affirm, that the articles, in any part of 
 them, are superstitious and erroneous. But this is not the 
 main of tlio business : for though the church of England de- 
 nounce excommunication, as is before expressed, yet she comes 
 far short of the church of Rome''s severity ; whose anathe- 
 mas are not only for thirty-nine articles, but for very many 
 more, *^above one hundred in matters of doctrine ; and that, 
 in many points, as far remote from the foundation, though 
 to the far greater rack of men's consciences, they must be all 
 
 A.C. p. 45.made fundamental, if that church have once determined 
 them : whereas the church of England never declared that 
 every one of her articles are fundamental in the faith. For 
 it is one thing to say no one of them is superstitious or erro- 
 neous, and quite another to say every one of them is funda- 
 mental, and that in every part of it, to all men's belief. 
 Besides, the church of England prescribes only to her own 
 children, and, by those articles, provides but for her own 
 peaceable consent in those doctrines of truth ; but the church 
 of Rome scvei'ely imposes her doctrine upon the whole world 
 under pain of damnation. 
 
 ip. And that the scriptures only, not any unwritten tradi- 
 tion, was the foundation of their faith. 
 Soct. 15. 3J. I. — The church of England grounded her positive arti- 
 cles upon scripture ; and her negative do refute there, where 
 the thing affirmed by you is not affirmed by scripture, nor 
 directly to be concluded out of it. And here, not the church 
 of England only, but all protestants agree most ti'uly and 
 most strongly in this, That the scripture is sufficient to 
 salvation, and contains in it all things necessary to it. The 
 Fathers S are plain ; the "^ schoolmen not strangers in it : and 
 
 c Can. 5. f Concil. Trident. Verho Dei non scripto, cap. 11, saith, 
 
 gr S. Basil, de vei-a et pia Fide, that St. Avigustine speaks de illis dog- 
 
 IManifesta defectio fidei est iniportare matilms quie necessaria sunt omnil)iis 
 
 •piicquam eonim qua* scripta non sunt. sim])liciter, of those points of faith 
 
 S. Hilar. Hb. ii. ad Const. Aug. Fideni whicli are necessary simply for all men. 
 
 tantum secundum ea qure scripta sunt So far then he grants the question, 
 
 desiderantem, et hoc qui rejjudiat, An- And that you may know it fell not 
 
 tichristus est, et qui siniulat, anathema from him on the sudden, he had said 
 
 est. S. Aug. lib. ii. de Doctr. Chris- as much before in the beginning of the 
 
 tian. c. 9. In iis qua> aperte in scri])- same chaj)ter ; and here he confirms 
 
 tura posita sunt, inveniuntiu- ilia omnia it again. 
 
 qu» continent iidem, moresque vivcndi. li Scotns, Proleg. in Sent. (j. 2. Scrip- 
 
 And to tliis place Bellarni. lili. iv. de tura sufficientcr cnntinet doctrinani iie- 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 43 
 
 have not wc reason then to account it, as it is, the foundation Sect. 15. 
 of our faiths And ' Stapleton himself, though an angry 
 opposite, confesses, " That the scripture is, in some sort, the 
 foundation of faith ; that is, in the nature of testimony, and 
 in the matter or thing to be beheved."" And if the scripture 
 be the foundation to which we are to go for witness, if there 
 be doubt about the faith, and in wliich wo are to find the 
 thing that is to bo beheved as necessary in the faith; we 
 never did nor never will refuse any tradition that is universal 
 and apostolic, for the better exposition of the scripture ; nor 
 any definition of the church, in which she goes to the scrip- 
 ture for what she teaches ; and thrusts nothing, as funda- 
 mental in the faith, upon the world, but what the scripture 
 fundamentally makes materiam credendonim, the substance 
 of that which is so to be believed ; whether immediately and 
 expressly in words, or more remotely, where a clear and full 
 deduction draws it out. 
 
 II. — Against the beginning of this paragraph A. 0. ex- A. C. p. 48. 
 cepts. And first, he says, " It is true that the church of 
 England grounded her positive articles upon scripture : that 
 is, it is true, if themselves may be competent judges in their 
 own cause." But this, by the leave of A. C, is true, without 
 making ourselves judges in our own cause. For " that all 
 the positive articles of the present church of England are 
 grounded upon scripture,'' we are content to be judged by 
 the joint and constant belief of the Fathers, which lived within 
 the first four or five hundred years after Christ, when the 
 church was at the best ; and by the councils held within 
 those times ; and to submit to them in all those points of 
 doctrine. Therefore we desire not to be judges in our own ^ 
 
 cause. And if any whom A. C. calls a novelist can truly 
 say and maintain this, he will quickly prove himself no 
 novelist. And for the negative articles ; they refute, where 
 the thing affirmed by you is either not affirmed in scripture, 
 or not directly to be concluded out of it. Upon this negative 
 
 cessariam viatori. Thorn. i. 2[e. q. i. i Scripturam fundamentuni esse et 
 
 A. 10. ad I. In doctrina Christi et columnam fidei f'atemur in suo genere, 
 
 apostolonun, Veritas fidei est siilK- i. e. in genere testinioniorum, et in 
 
 cienter explicata. And he speaks there materia crcdendorum. Relect. font. 4. 
 
 of tiie written word. q- i. Ar. 3. in fine. 
 
44 AixJibishop Laud against 
 
 Sect. 15. ground A. C. infers again, " That the baptism of infants is 
 ■ ^' ^' not expressly (at least, not evidently) affirmed in scripture, 
 nor directly (at least, not demonstratively) concluded out of 
 it/'' In which case, he professes, " he would gladly know 
 what can be answered, to defend this doctrine to be a point 
 of faith necessary for the salvation of infants." And in con- 
 clusion professes, " he cannot easily guess what answer can 
 be made, unless we will acknowledge authority of church 
 tradition necessary in this case." 
 
 HI. — And truly, since A. C. is so desirous of an answer, I 
 will give it freely. And first, in the general. I am no way 
 satisfied with A. 0. his addition, " not expressly ; at least, not 
 evidently." What means he ? If he speak of the letter of 
 the scripture, then, whatsoever is expressly is evidently in 
 the scripture ; and so his addition is vain. If he speak of 
 the meaning of the scripture, then his addition is cunning ; 
 for many things are expressly in scripture, which yet, in their 
 meaning, are not evidently there. And, whatever he mean, 
 my words are, " That our negative articles refute that which 
 is not affirmed in scripture," without any addition of expressly, 
 or evidently. And he should have taken my words as I used 
 them. I like nor change nor addition ; nor am I bound to 
 either of A. Cs making. And I am as little satisfied with 
 his next addition " nor directly, at least, not demonstratively, 
 concluded out of it." For are there not many things in 
 good logic concluded directly, which yet are not concluded 
 demonstratively? Surely there are. For to be directly or 
 indirectly concluded, flows from the mood or form of the 
 syllogism ; to be demonsti'atively concluded, flows from the 
 
 ^ matter or nature of the propositions. If the propositions 
 
 be prime and necessary truths, the syllogism is demonstrative 
 and scientifical, because the propositions are such. If the 
 propositions be probable only, though the syllogism be made 
 in the clearest mood, yet is the conclusion no more. The 
 inference or consequence, indeed, is clear and necessary ; but 
 the consequent is but probable or topical, as the propositions 
 were. Now my words were only for a direct conclusion, and 
 no more : though, in this case, I might give A. C his caution : 
 for scripture here is the thing spoken of. And scripture 
 being a principle, and every text of scripture confessedly a 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 
 
 45 
 
 principle among all Christians, whereof no man ^ desires any Sect. 15. 
 further proof; 1 would fain know why that which is plainly 
 and apparently, that is, by direct consequence, proved out of 
 scripture, is not demonstratively or scientifically proved ? If, 
 at least, he think there can be any demonstration in divinity : 
 and if there can bo none, why did he add " demonstratively V 
 IV. — Next, in particular ; I answer to the instance which 
 A. C. makes concerning the baptism of infants. That it mayA.C. p. 49- 
 be concluded directly (and let A. C. judge, whether not de- 
 monstratively) out of scripture, both that infants ought to 
 be baptized, and that baptism is necessary to their salvation. 
 And first, that baptism is necessary to the salvation of in- 
 fants (in the ordinary way of the church, without binding 
 God to the use and means of that sacrament to which he 
 hath bound us) ' is express in St. John iii. 5 : Except a man 
 he horn again of water and the Spirit, he cannot cuter into the 
 kingdom of God. So, no baptism, no entrance. Nor can 
 infants creep in any other ordinary way. And this is the 
 received opinion of all the ancient church of ^ Christ. And 
 
 k Habitus enim fidei it;i se lutliet in 
 ordine ad theologiam, sicut se liabet 
 habitus iiiteilectus ad scientias huma- 
 iias. 31. Caiuis, lil). ii. de Luc. c. 8. 
 
 1 St. August, expressly of the Iwptism 
 of iufants. Lib. i. de Peccato, Mer. et 
 Kemiiis. c. 30. et lib. ii. c. 27: ct Iii). 
 iii. de Anima et ejus Origine, c. 13. 
 Nay, they of the Roman party which 
 urge the baptism of infants as a matter 
 of faith, and yet not to i)e concluded 
 out of scrij)ture, wlien they are not in 
 eager jmrsuit of tliis controversy, but 
 look r.pon truth with a more indifferent 
 eye, confess as much (even the learnedest 
 of them) as we ask. Advertendum 
 autem Sidvatorem dtim dicit, Nisi qiiis 
 renatus, &.C. necessitatem imponere om- 
 nibus, ac proinde parvnlos debere re- 
 nasci e.r aqua et Sjiiritii. Jansen. Harm, 
 in Evang. c. 20. So here is baptism 
 necessary for infants, and that necessity 
 imposed by our Saviour, and not liy the 
 church only. Hsretici nullo alio quam 
 hoc scrijiturae testirnonio probare pos- 
 sunt, infantes esse ba])tizandos. i\lald. 
 in S. Joh. iii. 5. So 3Ialdonat con- 
 fesses, that the heretics (we know whom 
 he means) can prove tlie liaptism of 
 infants by no testimony of scripture 
 but this: which speech implies, tliat 
 by this testimony of scrij)ture it is and 
 
 can be proved ; and therefore not by 
 church tradition only. And I would 
 fain know why Bellarmine, lib. i. de 
 Baptism, cap. 8. §. 5, should bring 
 three arguments out of scripture to 
 prove the baptism of infants, " Habemus 
 in scripturis tria argumenta, &c.," if 
 baptism cannot be proved at all out of 
 scripture, but only ity the tradition of 
 the church. And yet this is not Bel- 
 larmine's way alone, but Suarez's, in 
 Thom. p. 3. q. 68. Disput. 25. sect, 
 i. §. 2. Ex scriptura possunt varia 
 argumenta simii ad confirmandum pae- 
 dobaptismum. Et similiter, &:c. And 
 Greg, de ^'alentia, L. de Baptism. Par- 
 vulorum, c. 2. §. i. jVnd the pope 
 himself, Innocent. III. lib. 3. Decretal. 
 Tit. 42. cap. Jlajores. And they all 
 jum]) with St.. Ambi-. lib. x. E])ist. 84. 
 ad Demetriadem X'irginem, who ex- 
 pressly alhrms it, Pwdobaptisnmm esse 
 constitutionem Salvatoris ; and proves 
 it out of John iii. 5. 
 
 m Infantes re.ss esse originalis ))ec- 
 cati, et ideo baptizandos esse, antiquam 
 fidei regiilam vocat. S. Aug. Serni. 8. 
 de ^'erb. Apost. c. 8. L't nemo vobis 
 susurret doctrinas alier.as, hoc ecclesia 
 semper habuit, semj>er tenuit, hoc a 
 majornm tide recepit, <.^:c. S. Aug. 
 Serm. lo. de Verb. Apost. c. 2. et 
 
46 Archbishop Laud against 
 
 Sect. 15. secondly, Th.it infants ought to bo ba])tizcd, is, first, phiin 
 by evident and direct consequence out of scripture. For if 
 there bo no salvation for infants in the ordinary way of the 
 church but by baptism, and this appear in scripture, as it 
 doth, then, out of all doubt, the consequence is most evident 
 out of that scripture, that infants are to be baptized, that 
 their salvation may be certain. For they which cannot 
 " help themselves must not be left only to extraordinary 
 helps, of wliicli v,'c have no assurance, and for which we have 
 no warrant at all in scripture, while we, in the mean time, 
 neglect the ordinary way and means commanded by Christ. 
 Secondly, it is very near an expression in scripture itself. 
 For when " St. Peter had ended that great sermon of his. 
 Acts ii., he applies two comforts unto them, verse 38 : Amend 
 your lives, and he haptized, and yoii shall receive the gift of the 
 Holy Ghost. And then, verse 39, he infers, For the promise is 
 made to you and to your children. The promise ; Avhat pro- 
 mise ? What ! Why the promise of sanctification by the 
 Holy Ghost. By what means ? Why, by baptism. For it is 
 expressly, Be hap>tized, and ye shall receive. And as expressly, 
 This promise is made to you and to your children. And there- 
 fore A. C. may find it, if he will, " That the baptism of infants 
 may be directly concluded out of scripture." For some of 
 his own party, P Ferns and ^1 Salmeron, could both find it 
 there. And so (if it will do him any pleasure) he hath my 
 ansv^er, which, he saith, he would be glad to know. 
 
 V. — It is true, ^ Bellarmine presses a main place out of St. 
 Augustine, and he urges it hard. St. Augustine's ^ words 
 are, " The custom of our mother the church in baptizing 
 infants is by no means to bo contemned or thought super- 
 fluous, nor vet at all to be believed, unless it were an apo- 
 stolical tradition." The place is truly cited, but seems a great 
 
 vS. Ambros. lit), x. Ep. 84. circa me- consentire, quum ad usum rationis per- 
 
 diiiin. Kt S. Chrysost. Hoin. de Adam veniunt, ad implenda promissa in bap- 
 
 et i:va. Hoc juaidicat ecclesia catholica tismo, <S;c. Salm. Tract. 14, upon the 
 
 iiliique diilnsa. place. 
 
 n Egi causam eoriuii qui pro se loqui i" Bellai-m. de verbo Dei, lib. iv. c. 9. 
 
 non possunt, &c. S. Aug. Serm. 8. §. 5 
 de Verb. Apost. c. 8. s Consuetudo matris ecclesiie in bap- 
 
 o Acts ii. ^8, 39. tizandis parvulis nequaqiiam sijernenda 
 
 V Nulhim'excipit, uou .Iuda>um, non est, nee omnino credenda, nisi apo- 
 
 Gentilem, no]i adnltiim, non jiueruni, stolica esset traditio. S. August. Gen. 
 
 &c. Ferns in Act. ii. 39. ad Lit. c. 23. 
 
 '1 El ad Jilios veslros : <piare debent 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 47 
 
 (leal stronger than indeed it is. For first, it is not denied Sect. 15. 
 that this is an apostoHcal tradition, and therefore to be 
 behoved. But, secondly, not therefore only. Nor doth St. 
 Auf^ustine say so, nor doth Bellarmine press it that way. 
 The truth is, it would have been somewhat difficult to find 
 the collection out of scripture only for the baptism of infants, 
 since they do not actually believe. And therefore St. Augus- 
 tine is at nee creclenda nisi, that this custom of the churcli 
 had not been to be believed, had it not been an apostolical 
 tradition. But the tradition being apostolical led on the 
 church easily to see the necessary deduction out of scripture. 
 And this is not the least use of tradition, to lead the church 
 into the true meaning of those things which are found in 
 scripture, though not obvious to every eye there. And that 
 this is St. Augustine's meaning is manifest by himself, who 
 best knew it. For when he had said, f as he doth, that to 
 baptize children is antiqua fidei regula, the ancient rule of 
 faith, and the constant tenet of the church, yet he doubts not 
 to collect and deduce it out of scripture also. For when 
 Pelagius urged that infants needed not to be baptized 
 because they had no original sin, St. Augustine relies not 
 upon the tenet of the church only, but argues from the text 
 thus : " " What need have infants of Christ, if they be not sick?" 
 for the sound nesd not the phi/sician, St. Matth, ix. And 
 again, is not this said by Pelagius, ut non accedant ad Jeswn, 
 that infants may not come to their Saviour? Sed clamat 
 Jesus, but Jesus cries out. Suffer little ojies to come unto tne^, 
 St. Mark x. And all this is fully acknowledged by 3' Calvin? 
 namely, " That all men acknowledge the baptism of infants 
 to descend from apostolical tradition f ^ and yet that " it 
 doth not depend upon the bare and naked authority of the 
 church." AMiieh he speaks not in regard of tradition, but 
 
 ' Cur antiquam fidei regulam fran- x Mark x. 14. 
 
 gei-e conaris? S August. Serm. 8. de Y Nullus est scri})tor tam vetustun, 
 
 Verb. Apost. c. 8. Hoc ecclesia semper qui iiou ejus originem ad apostolorum. 
 
 teuuit. Iliid. Serm. 10. c. 2. seculum pro certo ref'erat. Calv. 4. Inst. 
 
 u Quid necessariiim habuit infans c. 16. §. S. 
 
 Christum, si non a>grotat ? S. Matt. z Miserrimum asylum foret, si pro 
 
 ix. 12 Qviid est quod dicis, nisi ut defeusione pwdoliaptismi ad nudum 
 
 non accedant ad .Jesum ? Sed libi ecclesiaj autliovitatem fugere cogere- 
 
 damat Jesus, Sine porruhs venire ad nnir. f'alv. 4. lust. c. 8. J. 16. 
 me. S. August, in the forecited places. 
 
48 Archbishop Lmid against 
 
 Sect. 15, 16. in relation to .such proof as is to be made by necessary con- 
 sequence out of scripture over and above tradition. 
 
 VI. — As for tradition, » I have said enough for that, and 
 as much as A. C. where it is truly apostolical. And yet if 
 any thing will please him, I will add this concerning this 
 particular, the baptizing of infants ; that the church received 
 this by t> tradition from the apostles. By tradition. And 
 what then? May it not dii'ectly be concluded out of scrip- 
 ture, because it was delivered to the church by way of tradi- 
 tion I I hope A. C. will never say so. For certainly in 
 doctrinal things, nothing so likely to bo a tradition apo- 
 stolical as that which hath a ^ root and a foundation in scrip- 
 ture. For apostles cannot write or deliver contrary, but 
 subordinate and subservient things. 
 
 £. I asked how ho knew scripture to be scripture, and 
 in particular. Genesis, Exodus, &c. These are believed 
 to be scripture, yet not proved out of any place of scrip- 
 ture. The bishop said, That the books of scripture 
 are principles to be supposed, and needed not to be 
 proved. 
 U, I. — I did never love too curious a search into that 
 which might put a man into a wheel, and cii'cle him so long 
 between proving scripture by tradition and tradition by 
 scripture, till the devil find a means to dispute him into 
 infidelity, and make him believe neither. I hope this is no 
 part of your meaning. Yet I doubt this "^ question, " How 
 do you know scripture to be scripture V hath done more 
 harm than you will be ever able to help by tradition. But 
 I must follow that way which you draw me. And because 
 
 "5. li^. Num. 1. A. C. ]). 49. <^ Yea, and Bellarmiiie himself avers, 
 
 ^ Orig. in Rom. vi. 6. torn. ii. p. 543. Omnes traditiones, &c. contineri in 
 
 Pro hoc ecdesia ab apostohs tradi- scripturis in nniversali. De Verb. Dei 
 
 tionem suscepit, etiam parvulis baptis- nor. scripto, hb. iv. c. 10. §. Sio 
 
 mum dare. Et S. Angust. Serin. 10. etiam. And St. Basil, Serm. de Fide 
 
 de Verb. Apost. c. 2. Hoc ecclesia a approves only those agrapha, qua? non 
 
 majonun fide jiercepit. ^Viid it is to sunt aliena a pia secundum scripturam 
 
 be observed, that neither of these Fa- seiitentia. 
 
 thers (nor I believe any other) say that '1 Qui conantur hdem destruere sub 
 
 the church received it a truditione sola, specie (piiPstionis difticilis, aut forte in- 
 
 or a mnjonim Jiile sola; as if tradition dissohihilis, &c. Orig. Quest. 35. in S. 
 
 did exclude collection of it out of scrip- fllatth. 
 ture. 
 
 Sect. 16. 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 49 
 
 it is so much insisted upon by you, and is in itself a '^matter Sect. 16. 
 of such consequence, I will sift it a little further. 
 
 II. — Many men labouring to settle this great principle in 
 divinity, have used divers means to prove it. All have not 
 gone the same way, nor all the right way. You cannot be 
 right, that resolve faith of the scriptures, being the word of 
 God, into only tradition. For only, and no other proof, are 
 equal. To prove the scripture therefore (so called by way 
 of excellence) to be the word of God, there are several offers 
 at divers proofs. For first, some fly to the testimony and 
 witness of the church and her tradition, which constantly 
 believes and unanimously delivers it. Secondly, some to the 
 light and the testimony which the scripture gives to itself; 
 with other internal proofs wliicli are observed in it, and to 
 bo found in no other writing whatsoever. Thirdly, some to 
 the testimony of the Holy Ghost, which clears up the light 
 that is in scripture, and seals this faith to the souls of men, 
 that it is God's word. Fourthly, all that have not im- 
 brutished themselves, and sunk below their species and order 
 of nature, give even natural i-eason leave to come in and 
 make some proof, and give some approbation upon the weigh- 
 ing and the consideration of other arguments. And this 
 must be admitted, if it be but for pagans and infidels, who 
 either consider not or value not any one of the other three : 
 yet nmst some way or other be converted, or left unthout 
 excuse^ Rom. i. 20, and that is done by this very evidence. 
 
 III. — For the first, the tradition of the church, which 
 is your way : that taken and considered alone is so far from 
 being the only, that it cannot be a sufficient proof to believe 
 by divine faith that scripture is the word of God. For that 
 which is a full and sufficient proof is able of itself to settle 
 the soul of man concerning it. Now the tradition of the 
 church is not able to do this. For it may be further asked, 
 why we should believe the church's tradition I And if it 
 be answered, We may believe, because the church is in- 
 
 c To know that scri|)turcs are divine vere divinos. Bellanii. lii). iv. de \'erl). 
 
 and infallible in every i)art, is a f'oiui- Dei non scrijjto, c. 4. §. Quarto necesse. 
 
 elation so necessary, as if it lie donht- — Ht etiam libros qui snnt in nianibus 
 
 fully questioned, all the faith built upon esse illos. Ibid. §. Sexto oi)ortet. 
 scripture falls to tlie ground. .'X.C p. 47. f Rom. i. -20. 
 
 Necesse est nosse extare libros aliquos 
 
50 Arclihisliop Laud against 
 
 Sect. ] 6. fallibly governed by the Holy Ghost ; it may yet be de- 
 manded of you, how that may appear i And if this be 
 demanded, either you must say you have it by special reve- 
 lation, which is the private spirit you object to other men ; 
 or else you nnist attempt to prove it by scriptures, as all of 
 you do. And that very offer, to prove it out of scripture, 
 is a sufficient acknowledgment that the scripture is a higher 
 proof than the church's tradition, which (in your grounds) 
 is, or may be, questionable till you come thither. Besides, 
 this is an inviolable ground of reason, " ^ That the principles 
 of any conclusion must be of more credit than the conclusion 
 itself." Therefore, if the articles of faith, the Trinity, the 
 resurrection, and the rest, be the conclusions, and the prin- 
 ciples by which they are proved be only ecclesiastical tradi- 
 tion, it must needs follow, that the tradition of the church 
 is more infallible than the articles of the faith ; if the faith 
 which we have of the articles should be finally resolved into 
 the veracity of the church''s testimony. But this ' your 
 learned and wary men deny ; and therefore 1 hope yourself 
 dare not affirm. 
 
 IV. — Again ; if the voice of the church (saying " the books 
 of scripture commonly received ai'e the word of God"") bo 
 the formal object of faith, upon which alone absolutely I may 
 resolve myself ; then every man not only may, but ought 
 to resolve his faith into the voice or tradition of the church : 
 for every man is bound to rest upon the proper and formal 
 object of the faith. But nothing can be more evident than 
 this, " That a man ought not to resolve his faith of this 
 principle into the sole testimony of the church." Therefore 
 neither is that testimony, or tradition alone, the formal 
 object of faith. ^^The learned of your own part grant this: 
 
 K Esse aliqnas veras traditiones <le- possum, qui asseniut iidem nostrani 
 
 inoristratiir c>x scriptiiris. Bellarm. lib. eo taiuiiiain in iiltiniam credeiuii cuusani 
 
 iv. de Verl)o Dei nou scripto, c. t;. and rediiceiidam esse. Ut credamus eccle- 
 
 A. ('. p. 50. ])roves tradition out of siaui esse veracen), &c. M. Canus, lili. 
 
 2 Thes. ii. 15. ii. de Locis, v.. 8. §. Cuij et tertiuni. 
 
 1' Arist. I. Post. c. 2. T. xvi. per k Vox ecclesife nou est formale ol>- 
 
 Pacinni. Quociira si 5ia to Trpwra, jectum fidei. Stapl. Helect. t'ont. .}.. 
 
 jiropter ])i-inia scinius et credinius, ilia q. 3. A. 3 Licet in articulo lidei 
 
 quoque scimus et credinuis ixaWoy, Credo ecclcsiain f\)rte contintiatm- hoc 
 
 inagis, quia j)er ilia stimus et credinuis totum, (^redo ea quse docet ecclesia : 
 
 etiani posteriora. tanien uon iuteliigitur iiecessario, quod 
 
 i Eorum errorem dissimulare noii Credo docenti ecclesiaj tanquam testi 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 51 
 
 " Although in that article of the Creed, ' 1 believe the catholic Sect. \6. 
 church,'' peradventure all this be contained, I believe those 
 things which the church teacheth ; yet this is not necessarily 
 understood, that I believe the church teaching as an infallible 
 witness/' And if they did not confess this, it were no hard 
 thing to prove. 
 
 V. — But here is the cunning of this device. All the 
 authorities of Fathers, councils, nay, of scripture too, ^ (though 
 this be contrary to their own doctrine.) must be finally 
 resolved into the authority of the present Roman church. 
 And though they would seem to have us believe the Fathers 
 and the church of old, yet they will not have us take their 
 doctrine from their own ^\Titings, or the decrees of councils ; 
 because (as they say) we cannot know by reading them 
 what their meaning was, but from the infallible testimony 
 of the present Roman church teaching by tradition. Now 
 by this two things are evident. First, that they ascribe 
 as great authority (if not greater) to a part of the catholic 
 church as they do to the whole, which we believe in our 
 Creed, and which is the society of all Christians. And 
 this is full of absurdity in nature, in reason, in all things, 
 that any "^part should be of equal worth, power, credit, or 
 authority with the whole. Secondly, that in their doctrine 
 concerning the infallibility of their church, their proceeding 
 is most unreasonable. For if you ask them why they 
 believe their whole doctrine to be the sole true catholic 
 faith ? their answer is, " Because it is agreeable to the 
 word of God, and the doctrine and tradition of the ancient 
 church."'' If you ask them how they know that to be so I 
 
 infalliliili. Ibid. — Ubi etiam rejicit opi- et legibiis ejus, vilior est Christi legi- 
 uionem Durandi et Gabr. et Waldens bus et scrijituris Sanctis necessario post- 
 lib, ii. Doctr. Fidei Art. 2. c. 21. uum. jjonenda. Wald. lib. ii. Doct. Fidei Ait. 
 4. Testimonium ecdesiaj catholicae 2. caj). 21. num. i. 
 est ol)jectum fidei Christiana?, et le- m Totum est niajus sua parte. Etiamsi 
 gislatio scripturae canonicse, subjicitur axioma sit apud Euclydem, non tanien 
 tanien \\m, sicut te.stis judici, et tes- ideo geometricum putandum est, quia 
 timoniuni veritati. &c. — Canus, Loc. geometres eo utitur. Utitur enim et 
 lib. ii. caj). 8. Nee si ecclesia aditum tota logica. Ram. in Schol. Wattli. And 
 nobis pnebet ad hujusmodi libros sa- Aristotle vindicates such propositions 
 cros cognosccndos, protintis ibi acquies- to. eV rois f^ae-nixacn KaXov/xeira a^it^- 
 cendum est, sed ultra oi»)rtet progredi, /xara from lieing usurped by particular 
 et solida Dei veritate niti, &c. sciences : awaa-i yap virapxei, &c., quia 
 ' Omnis ergo ecclesiastica authori- conveniiint omni enti, et non alicui 
 tas, cum sit ad testificandum de Christo generi separatim. Metaph. lib. iv. c. 3. 
 
 torn. vii. 
 
 E 3 
 
52 Archbishop Laud against 
 
 Sect. 1 6. they will then produce testimonies of scripture, councils, 
 and Fathers. But if you ask a third time, by what means 
 they are assured that these testimonies do indeed make for 
 them and their cause 1 they will not then have recourse 
 to text of scripture, or exposition of Fathers, or phrase and 
 propriety of language, in wliich either of them were first 
 written, or to the scope of the author, or the " causes of the 
 thing uttered, or the conference with like o places, or the 
 antecedents P and consequents of the same places, i or the 
 exposition of the dark and doubtful places of scripture by 
 the undoubted and manifest ; with divers other rules given 
 for the true knowledge and understanding of scripture, which 
 do frequently occur in "^St. Augustine. No, none of these 
 or the like helps : that, with them, were to admit a private 
 spirit, or to make way for it. But their final answer is, 
 " They know it to be so, because the present Roman churck 
 witnesseth it according to tradition."" So arguing a primo 
 ad idtimmn, from first to last ; the present church of Rome 
 and her followers believe her own doctrine and tradition to 
 be true and catholic because she professes it to be such. 
 And if this be not to prove idem per idem, the same by the 
 same, I know not what is : which, though it be most absurd 
 in all kind of learning, yet out of this I see not how it is 
 possible to wind themselves, so long as the last resolution 
 of their faith must rest (as they teach) upon the tradition 
 of the present church only. 
 
 VI. — It seems therefore to me very necessary, Hhat we bo 
 
 n Intelligentia dictorum ex causis est festiora qua?qiie prsvaleant, et de incer- 
 
 assumenda dicendi, quia non sermoni tis certiora prsescribant. Tert. L. de 
 
 res, sed rei seniio est siibjectus. S. Resur. c. 1 9. et 2 1 . S. August, lib. ill. 
 
 Hilar. lil>. iv. de Triii. — Ex materia de Doct. Christ, c. 26. — 31()ris est 
 
 dicti dirigendiis est sensus. Tert. 1. de scripturarum obsciu-is maiiifesta sub- 
 
 Resur. Carnis, <-. .^7. uectere, et (juod prius sub a'nigniatibus 
 
 o Videndo differentias similium ad di.xerint, aperta voce jiroferre. S. Hierou. 
 
 siiriilia. Orig. Tract. 19. in S. ]\Iatt. iu E.sa. 19. princ. vid. §. 26. num. 4. 
 
 1> Recolendum est uude venerit ista r S. August, lib. iii. de Doctr. Cliri.s- 
 
 senteutia, et qua? illam sn]>eriora pe- tiana. 
 
 pej-erint, quib\isque connexa depeudeat. s x\nd this is so necessary, that Rel- 
 
 S. August. Ep. 29. — Solet circumstantia larmiue coni'esses,tIiatiftraditioK(\vliich 
 
 scripturw illumiiiaresententiani. S.Aug, he relies upon) be not divine, he and 
 
 lib. l.xxxiii. Qna>st. q. 69. his can have no faith. Non ]ial)enins 
 
 <1 Quae ambigue et obscure in non- fidein. Fides enini verl)o Dei nititur. 
 
 nuUis scripturaj sacra? locis dicta viden- lib. iv. de \'erbo Dei, c. 4. §. At si 
 
 tur, j)er ea qu;e alibi carta et indu- ita est. 
 
 hitata habentur declarantur. S. Basil. And A. C. tells us, p. 47 ; To know 
 
 in Regulis contractis, Reg. 267 Mani- that scripture is divine and infallible 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 5B 
 
 able to prove the books of scripturo to be the word of God by Sect. i6. 
 some authority that is absohitely divine. For if they be 
 warranted unto us by any authority less than divine, then 
 all things contained in them (which have no greater assur- 
 ance than the scripture in which they are read) are not 
 objects of divine belief. And that once granted will enforce 
 us to yield, that all the articles of Christian belief have no 
 greater assurance than human oi' moral faith or credulity 
 can afford. An authority then simply divine must make good 
 the scripture's infallibility, at least in the last resolution of 
 our faith in that point. This authority cannot be any 
 testimony or voice of the ^church alone. For the church 
 consists of men subject to error ; and no one of them, 
 since the apostles' times, hath been assisted with so plen- 
 tiful a measure of the blessed Spirit as to secure him 
 from being deceived ; and all the parts being all liable to 
 mistaking, and fallible, the whole cannot possibly be infal- 
 lible in and of itself, and privileged from being deceived 
 in some things or other. And even in those fundamental 
 things in which the whole universal church neither doth 
 nor can err, yet even there her authority is not divine, 
 because she delivers those supernatural truths by promise 
 of assistance, yet tied to means ; and not by any special 
 immediate revelation, which is necessarily required to the 
 very least degree of divine authority. And therefore our 
 "worthies do not only sa}^ but prove, " That all the church's 
 constitutions are of the nature of human law." x^^j^d ^ome 
 among you, not unworthy for their learning, prove it at large. 
 That all the church's testimony, or voice, or sentence (call 
 it what you will) is but suo modo, or aUquo modo, not simply, 
 but in a manner divine. Yea, and A. C. himself after allA. C p. 51. 
 
 in every part, is a foniidation so neces- tinus ilji acqniesceiidtim est, sed ultra 
 sary, as, if it be doubtfully questioned, oportet progredi, et solida Dei veritate 
 all the faith built upon scrijiture falls niti. Qua ex re intelligitur quid sibi 
 to the fjround. And he gives the same voluerit AuiE^istinus, quuni ait, Evan- 
 reason for it p. 50. which Bellarmiiie gelio non urederem, nisi, &c. 31. Canus, 
 
 doth. lili. ii. de Locis, c. <S. fol. 34. 1) Non 
 
 t Ecclesiam Spiritu afflatam esse, certe docet fundatam esse evangelii fidem in 
 
 credo. Non ut veritatem authorita- ecclesiae authoritate, sod, <!v:c. Ibid, 
 temve Jibris canonicis tribuat, sed nt u Hooker, Eccles. Pol. HI), iii. §. 9. 
 doceat illos non alios e.sse canonicos. " Staph Relect. font. 4. q. ;{. A. i 
 
 Nee si adituin nobis pra^bet ad hiijus- et 2. 
 modi sacros libros cogiioscendos, pro- 
 
 ^3 
 
54< Archbishop Laud against 
 
 Swt, 1 6. his debate comes to that, and no further, " That the tradi- 
 tion of the church is, at least in some sort, divine and 
 infaUible." Now that which is divine but in a sort or man- 
 ner, be it the church's manner, is aliquo modo non divina, in 
 a sort not divine. But this great principle of faith (the 
 ground and proof of whatsoever else is of faith) cannot stand 
 firm upon a proof that is and is not, in a manner and not 
 in a manner, divine ; as it must, if we have no other anchor 
 than the external tradition of the church to lodge it upon, 
 and hold it steady in the midst of those waves which daily 
 beat upon it. 
 
 A. C. p. 49. VII. — Now here A. C. confesses expressly, that to prove the 
 books of scripture to be divine, we must be warranted by 
 
 A. f. p. 50 that which is infallible. He confesses further, "that there 
 can be no sufficient infallible proof of this but God\s word, 
 M'ritten or unwritten.''' And he gives his reason for it : 
 
 A. c. p. 51. " Because, if the proof be merely human and fallible, the 
 science or faith which is built upon it can be no better." 
 So then this is agreed on by me, (yet leaving other men to 
 travel by their own way, so be they can come to make 
 scripture thereby infallible,) that scripture must be known 
 to be scripture by a sufficient, infallible, divine proof. And 
 that such proof can be nothing but the word of God, is agreed 
 on also by me. Yea, and agreed on, for me, it shall be like- 
 wise, that God''s word may be written and unwritten. For 
 cardinal yBellarmine tells us truly, that it is not the writing 
 or printing that makes scripture the word of God ; but it is 
 the prime, vmerring, essential truth, God himself, uttering 
 and revealing it to his church, that makes it verhum Dei, the 
 word of God. And this word of God is uttered to men, 
 either immediately by God himself. Father, Son, and Holy 
 Ghost ; and so it was to the prophets and apostles ; or 
 mediately, either by angels, to whom God had spoken first ; 
 and so the law was given, =^Gal. iii., and so also the message 
 was delivered to the blessed Virgin, '■^ Luke i. ; or by the pro- 
 
 y \'^erl)um Dei non est tale, nee lialiet Dei, c. 2. §. Ecclesiastics traditiones. 
 iiUain aiithoi-itatem, quia scn'ptiini est ^ Lex ordinata j)er aiigelos in nianu 
 
 in meniliranis, sed quia a Deo pro- mediatoris, Gal. iii, 19. 
 fectmn est. Eellaiin. lib. W. de \'eil). a Luke i. 30. 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 55 
 
 l^hets '^and apostles ; and so the scriptures were delivered Sert. i6, 
 to the church. ]?ut their being written gave them no 
 authority at all in regard of themselves. Written or un- 
 written, the word was the same. But it was written that 
 it might be the better c preserved, and continued with the 
 more intesritv to the use of the church, and the more faith- 
 fully in our diuemories. And you have been often enough told, 
 (were truth, and not the maintaining of a party, the thing 
 you seek for,) that if you will shew us any such unwritten 
 word of God delivered by his prophets and apostles, we will 
 acknowledo-e it to be divine and infallible. So, written or un- 
 written, that shall not stumble us. J3ut then A. 0. must 
 not tell us, at least not think we shall swallow it into our 
 belief, that every thing which he says is the unwritten word 
 of God is so indeed. 
 
 VIII. — I know Bellarmine hath written a whole book 
 ^Be mrbo Dei mn scripto, of the word of God not written, 
 in which he handles the controversy concerning traditions. 
 And the cunning is, to make his weaker readers believe, that 
 all that which ho and his are pleased to call traditions, are 
 by and by no less to be received and honoured than the 
 unwritten word of God ought to be. Whereas it is a thing 
 of easy knowledge, that ' the miivritten loord of God and 
 tradition are not convertible terms, that is, are not all one. 
 For there are many unwritten words of God which were 
 never deUvered over to the church, for aught appears ; and 
 there are many traditions (affirmed, at least, to be such by 
 the church of Rome) which were never warranted by any 
 unwritten w^ord of God. 
 
 li The Holy Ghost, &c. which spake scriptis, cpiam iion credere verbis, 
 
 bv the prophets, in Synih. Nicen. <1 Labilis est memoria, et ideo in- 
 
 ' c Nam pseudoprophetae, etiam viven- digemus scriptura : dicendura »|Uod 
 
 tibus adhiic apostolis, imiltas fingebant venim est, sed hoc non habet, nisi ex 
 
 corruptelas sub hoc prwtextu et titulo, iuuudantia peccatorum. Henr. a Gand. 
 
 quasi ab apostolis viva voce essent Sum. p. i. Art. 8. q. 4. fine. — Christus 
 
 tradita? : et propter banc ipsam cau- ipse de pectore morituro testamentum 
 
 sam apostoli doctrinam suam cwpe- transfert in tabulas diu duraturas. 
 
 runt literis comprebendere, et ecclesiis Optatus, lib. v. Christus ipse non trans- 
 
 commendare. Chem. Exam. Concil. tulit, sed e.K Optati sententia, ejus in- 
 
 Trid. de Traditionibus sub octavo ge- spiratione, si non jussu, apostoH trans- 
 
 iiere traditis. — .ind so also Jans. Com- tulerunt. 
 
 ment. in Joh. v. 47. Sicut enim e Bellarm. lil). iv. de Verbo Dei non 
 
 firmins est quod mandatur literis, ita scripto. 
 est culpabilius et majus nou credere 
 
 K4 
 
5G Archbishop Laud against 
 
 Sect. 1 6. IX. — First, Tlmt there are many unwritten words of CtocI 
 which were never dehvered over to the church, is manifest. 
 For wlien or where were the words which Christ spake to 
 liis apostles during the fforty days of his conversing with 
 them after his resurrection first dehvered over to the church ? 
 Or what were the unwritten words he then spake ? If 
 neither he nor his apostles or evangelists have delivered 
 them to the church, the church ought not to deliver them 
 to her children. Or if she do Uradere non tradifum, make a 
 tradition of that which was not delivered to her, and by 
 some of them, then she is unfaithful to God, and doth not 
 servare depositurn, faithfully keep that which is committed 
 to her trust; ^"1 Tim. vi. And her sons which come to 
 know it are not bound to obey her tradition against the 
 'word of their Father. For wheresoever Christ holds his 
 peace, or that his words are not registered, I am of i^St. 
 Augustine's opinion, no man may dare, without rashness, say 
 they were these or these. So there were many unwritten 
 words of God which were never delivered over to the church, 
 and therefore never made tradition. And there are many 
 traditions which cannot be said to be the unwritten word 
 of God. For I believe a learned Romanist that will weigh 
 before he speaks will not easily sliy. that to anoint, or use 
 spittle in baptism, or to use three dippings in the use of that 
 sacrament, or divers other like traditions, had their rise from 
 any word of God unwritten. Or if he be so hardy as to 
 say so, it is gratis dictum, and he will have enough to do 
 to prove it. So there may be an unwritten word of God 
 which is no tradition. And there are many traditions which 
 are no unwritten word of God. Therefore tradition must be 
 taken two ways : either as it is the church's act deliver- 
 ing, or the thing thereby delivered; and then it is human 
 
 f Act. i. ■>,. Henr. a Gaud. Smii. p. i. A. lo. q. i. 
 
 g Anniuiciaro alifiuid Christiauis ca- And Bellannine liiinself, that he might 
 
 tholicis, prater id quod acceperuut, tlie more safely defend himself in the 
 
 nunquam licuit, nnsquam licet, nun- cause of traditions, says, (hut how 
 
 (juam licebit. Vincent. Lirin. c 14.— Et truly, let other men judge,) NuUam 
 
 pra-cipit nihil aliud innovari, nisi qtiod traditionem admittimus contra scrip- 
 
 traditum est. S. Cyprian, ad Pompeinm tin-am, lih. iv. de Verho Dei, cap. 3. §. 
 
 com. epist. Stephan., princ. Deinde connnune. 
 
 h c Tim. vi. 20. and 2 Tim. i. M- k t^. August, tom. xvi. in S. Joh. 
 
 i Si ipsa(ecclesia)contraria scripturio in ilia verha, Mulla haheo dicere, sed 
 
 diceret, (fidelis) ijisi iiou crederet, <S.c. non poleslis portarc inodo. 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 57 
 
 authority, or from it, and unable infallibly to warrant diyinoSect. i6. 
 faith, or to be the object of it : or else as it is the unwritten 
 word of God ; and then, whereyer it can be made to appear 
 so, it is of diyine and infallible authority, no question. But 
 then I would have A. C. consider where he is in this parti- 
 cular: he tells us, "We must know infaUibly that the booksA.C. p. 49. 
 of holy scripture are divine," and that " this must be done by 
 unwritten tradition, but so as that this tradition is the word 
 of God unwritten." Now let him but prove that this or any 
 tradition which the church of Eome stands upon is the word 
 of God, though unwritten, and the business is ended. ButA.C. p. 50. 
 A. C. must not think that because the tradition of the church 
 tells me these books are verhum Dei, God's word, and that I 
 do both honour and believe this tradition, that therefore this 
 tradition itself is God's word too, and so absolutely sufficient 
 and infallible to work this belief in me. Therefore, for aught 
 A. 0. hath yet added, we must on with our inquiry after this 
 great business and most necessary truth. 
 
 X. — 2. For the second way of proving that scripture should 
 be fully and sufficiently known, as by divine and infallible 
 testimony, lumine proprio, by the resplendency of that light 
 which it hath in itself only, and by the witness that it can so 
 give to itself, I could never yet see cause to allow. ' For as 
 there is no place in scripture that tells us such books con- 
 taining such and such particulars are the canon, and infallible 
 will and word of God ; so if there were any such place, that 
 were no sufficient proof: for a man may justly ask another 
 book to bear witness of that, and again of that another ; and 
 wherever it were written in scripture, that must be a part of 
 the whole. And no created thing can alone give witness to 
 itself and make it evident, nor one part testify for another, 
 and satisfy where reason will but offer to contest ; except 
 those principles only of natural knowledge which appear ma- 
 nifest by intuitive light of understanding, without any dis- 
 course ; and yet they also to the weaker soi't require induction 
 preceding. Now this inbred light of scripture is a thing 
 coincident with scripture itself; and so the principles and the 
 conclusion in this kind of proof should be entirely the same, 
 
 1 Hooker, Eccles. Pol. 1>. ii. j. 4. 
 
58 Archbishop Laud against 
 
 Sect. 1 6. which cannot be. Besides, if this inward light were eo clear, 
 how could there have been any variety among the ancient 
 believers touching the authority of "^St. James' and St. Jude's 
 Epistles and the "Apocalypse, with other books which were not 
 received for divers years after the rest of the New Testament 1 
 for certainly the light which is in the scripture was the same 
 then which now it is. And how could the Gospel of St. Bar- 
 tholomew, of St. Thomas, and other counterfeit pieces, obtain 
 so much credit with some as to be received into the canon, if 
 the evidence of this light were either universal or infallible of 
 and by itself? And this though I cannot approve, yet me- 
 thinks you may, and upon probable grounds at least : for I 
 hope no o Romanist will deny but that there is as much light 
 in scripture to manifest and make ostention of itself to be 
 infallibly the wi-itten word of God, as there is in any tradition 
 of the church that it is divine, and inlallibly the unwritten 
 word of God. And the scriptures saying from the mouths of 
 the prophets, vThns saith the Lord^ and from the mouths of 
 the apostles, that '^the Holy Ghost spake hy them^ are at least 
 as able and as fit to bear witness to their own verity as the 
 church is to bear witness to her own traditions by bare 
 saying they come from the apostles : and yourselves would 
 never go to the scripture to prove that there are >■ traditions, 
 as you do, if you did not think the scripture as easy to be 
 discovered by inbred light in itself as traditions by their 
 light. And if this be so, then it is as probable at the least 
 (which some of ours affirm) that scripture may be known to 
 be the word of God by the light and lustre which it hath in 
 itself, as it is (which you ^affirm) that a tradition may be 
 known to be such by the light which it hath in itself; which 
 is an excellent proposition to make sport withal, were this an 
 argument to be handled merrily. 
 
 XI. — 3. For the third opinion and way of proving; either 
 some think that there is no sufficient warrant for this, unless 
 
 m Eiiseb. lib. ii. c. 27. fine, edit. Basil, by its own \\^\\t shews itself to be infal- 
 
 1549. lil)ly assisted," &c. p. 52. 
 
 " Euseb. lib. iii. c. 25. V Isa. xliv. et passim. 
 
 o Except A. C, whose I)o]dness herein 1 Acts xxviii. 25. 
 
 I cannot but pity: for he denies this »" 2 Thess. ii. 15. Jude, ver. 3. 
 light to the scripture, and gives it to s In your articles delivered to D. W. 
 
 tradition. His words are, "Tradition to be answered ; and A. C. p. 5^. 
 of the church is of a company, which 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 59 
 
 they fetch it from the testimony of the Holy Ghost, and so Sect. 1 6. 
 look in vain after special revelations, and make themselves by 
 this very conceit obnoxious and easy to be led by all the 
 whisperings of a seducing private spirit, or else you would 
 fain have them think so : for your side, both upon this and 
 other occasions, do often challenge that we resolve all our 
 faith into the dictates of a * private spirit ; from which we 
 shall ever prove ourselves as free if not freer than you. To 
 the question in hand then : suppose it agreed upon that there 
 must be a "divine faith, cui suhesse non ijotest falsum, under 
 which can rest no possible error, that the books of scripture 
 are the written word of God ; if they which go to the testi- 
 mony of the Holy Ghost for proof of this do mean by faith 
 ohjedum fidei, the object of faith that is to be believed, then, 
 no question, they are out of the ordinary way ; for God 
 never sent us by any word or warrant of his to look for any 
 such special and private testimony to prove which that book 
 is that we must believe : but if by faith they mean the habit 
 or act of divine infused faith, by which virtue they do believe 
 the credible object and thing to be believed, then their speech 
 is true and confessed by all divines of all sorts : for faith is 
 the xgift of God, of God alone, and an y infused habit, in 
 respect whereof the soul is merely recipient ; and therefore 
 the sole infuser, the Holy Ghost, must not be excluded from 
 that work which none can do but he : for the Holy Ghost, as 
 2 he first dictated the scripture to the apostles, "^so did he 
 
 t A Jesuit, under the name of T. S., nianis. Ad quern modum et Saraceni 
 
 set out a hook, anno 1630, which he suis prppceptorilins, et Juda?i suis rabi- 
 
 called, The Trial of the Protestant pri- nis, et gentes suis philosophis, et omnes 
 
 vate Spirit. suis niajoribus inherent : non sic Chris- 
 
 u Ut testimonia scripture certain et tiani, sed per interius lumen infusum a 
 
 indubitatam tidem pra-stent, necessa- Spiritu Sancto, quo ftrmissime et cer- 
 
 riam videtur ostendere, quod ijssffi divi- tissime moventur ad credendum, &c. 
 
 iia? scripture sint Dei Spiritu inspirata?. Cauus, Locor. lib. ii. c. S. §. Jam si 
 
 Orig. 4. Trepi apx'^v- ha?c. 
 
 X I c;<ir. xii. 3, 4. Daturnobis a Deo, z "The Holy Ghost spake by the 
 
 &c. S. August! in Psal. Ixxxvii. prophets," &c. 'Symb. Nicen. et i Pet. 
 
 y Quia' homo assentiendo eis quw ii. 21 — Quis modus est, quo doces ani- 
 
 snut fidei elevator supra naturam suam, mas ea qua> futnra sunt ? Docuisti enim 
 
 oportet, quod hoc insit ei ex supernatu- prophetas tuos. S. Aiignst. Confess, 
 
 rali principio interius movente, quod est lib. xi. c. 19. ^ 
 
 Deus. Thorn. 2. 2^. q. 6. A. i. c. And a Nee enim ecclesiaj testimonium aut 
 
 your own divines agree in this, that judicium prwdicanuis, Dei Spiritum,vel 
 
 Jides acrpdsita is not sufficient for any ab ecclesia docente, vel a nobis audien- 
 
 article, but there must be fides infnsa tibus, exchidimns, sed iitrobique diserte 
 
 before there can i)e divine certainty. iTicludimus, &c. Staph Trip. cont. Whi- 
 
 Fides acquisita inuititur conjecturis hu- tak. c. 3. 
 
60 ArMishop Laud aqainst 
 
 Sect. iT). not leave the church in general, nor the true members of it 
 in particular, without grace to believe what liimself had 
 revealed and made credible :" so that faith, as it is taken for 
 the virtue of faith, whether it be of this or any other article, 
 "•b though it receive a kind of preparation or occasion of 
 beginning fi^oni the testimony of the church, as it proposeth 
 and induceth to the faith, yet it ends in God, revealing within 
 and teaching within that which the church preached without f 
 for till the Spirit of God move the heart of man, he cannot 
 believe, be the object never so credible. The speech is true 
 then, but quite ^out of the state of this question, which in- 
 quires only after a sufficient means to make this object credi- 
 ble and fit to be believed against all impeachment of folly and 
 temerity in belief, whether men do actually believe it or not ; 
 for which no man may expect inward private revelation with- 
 out the external means of the church, unless perhaps the 
 f^case of necessity be excepted, when a man lives in such a 
 time and place as excludes him from all ordinary means ; in 
 which I dare not offer to shut up God from the souls of men, 
 nor to tie him to those ordinary ways and means to which 
 yet in great wisdom and providence he hath tied and bound 
 all mankind, 
 
 XII. — Private revelation then liath nothing ordinarily to 
 do to make the object credible in this, that scripture is the 
 word of God, or in any other article. For the question is 
 of such outward and evident means as other men may take 
 notice of as well as ourselves ; by which, if there arise any 
 doubting or infirmity in the faith, others may strengthen us, 
 or we afford means to support them ; whereas the " ^testi- 
 
 b Fides quEe Cfiepit nh ecdesiaj testi- solo dono gratuito infiisus est : niliil ad 
 
 moiiio, quaterius jtropouit et inducit ad qiitestioneni : nisi, quoad hoc quod per 
 
 fuleni, desinit in Deo intus revelante, et scripturif inspectioiiem, &c. Henr. a 
 
 iiitus doceute quod foris ecclesia prwdi- (iand. Sum. A. lo. (|. i. lit. D. 
 cavit. Stapl. Relect. Cout. 4. q..^ A. 2 — '' Stapleton, Kelect. Cont. 4. q.3. A. 2, 
 
 " When giave and learned men do some- doth not only affirm it, but proves it 
 
 times hold that of this [U-inciple there is too, a paritate ratlonis, in case of neces- 
 
 no proof hut liy the testimony of the sity, where there is no contempt of the 
 
 Spirit, &c. I think it is not tlieir mean- external means. 
 
 ing to exclude all outward proofs, &c. e Quid cum singulis iigitur, Dens scit 
 
 but rather this, That all other means qui agit, et ipsi cum quibus agitur, 
 
 are uneffectual of themselves to work sciunt. Quid autem agatur cum genere 
 
 faith without the special grace of (iod," humano, per historiam commendari vo- 
 
 &c. Hooker, Eccles. Pol. b. iii. §. 8. luit, et per ])roi)hetiam. S. August, de 
 
 c De habitu fidei quoad fieri ejus et vera Relig. c. 25. 
 generationem cum a Deo immediate 
 
Fisher the Jetsuit. 61 
 
 mony of the Spirit and all private revelation is within, nor Sect. 16. 
 felt nor seen of any but of him that hath it ;" so that hence 
 can be drawn no proof to others. And miracles are not suffi- 
 cient alone to prove it, unless both they and the revelation 
 too agree with the rule of scripture, which is now an unalter- 
 able rule by ^man or angel. To all this A. C. says nothing, A. (;. p. 52. 
 save that " I seem not to admit of an infallible impulsion of 
 a private spirit ex parte suhjecti^ without any infallible reason, 
 and that sufficiently applied ex parte ohjecti ; which if I did 
 admit would open a gap to all enthusiasms and dreams of 
 fanatical men." Now for this yet I thank him ; for I do not 
 only "seem not to admit," but I do most clearly reject this' 
 phrensy in the words going before. 
 
 XIII. — 4. The last way, which gives 5reason leave to come 
 in and prove what it can, may not justly be denied by any 
 reasonable man ; for though reason without grace cannot see 
 the way to heaven, nor believe this book in which God hath 
 written the way, yet grace is never placed but in a reasonable 
 creature, and proves, by the very seat which it hath taken up, 
 that the end it hath is to be spiritual eye-water to make 
 reason see what by ^ nature only it cannot, but never to 
 blemish reason in that which it can comprehend. Now the 
 use of reason is very general ; and man (do what he can) is 
 still apt to search and seek for a reason why he will believe, 
 though after he once believes, his faith grows ' stronger than 
 either his reason or his knowledge ; and great reason for this, 
 
 f Gal. i. 8. lumine divin:e scientife, quae decipi non 
 
 g Utitur tamen sacra doctriiia ratione potest. Tliom. p. i. (j. i. A. 5. c. — Ut 
 
 hiimana, nun quidem ad ])roliandnni i]isa tide valcntiores facti, qiiod credinuis 
 
 fideni ipsam, sed ad manifestanduni ali- intelligere mereanmr. 8. Aiignst. cont- 
 
 qua alia, qua; traduntur in liac doc- Ep. Maniclia-i, dictam Fundamentum, 
 
 triiia. Thorn, p. i. q. t. A. 8. ad 2 — c. 14 Hoc antein ita intelligendiini est, 
 
 Passii)us rationis novus homo tendit in ut scientia certior sit certitudine eviden- 
 Deum. S. August, de vera Relig. c. 26. tw; tides vero certior firmitate adh;f- 
 (Passil)us, verum est, sed nee a-quis, nee sionis. INIajus lumen in scientia, niajus 
 solis.) — Nam invisibilia Dei altiori modo robur in fide. Et hoc, quia in tide, et 
 ([uantum ad jdura percipit fides, ipiam ad Hdem actus imperatus voluntatis con- 
 ratio uaturalis ex creaturis in Deum currit. Credere enim est actus iutel- 
 procedens. Tlioni. 1. ?». q. 2. A. 3. Icctns ; vero assentientis productus ex 
 ad 3. voluntatis imperio. Iiiel. in 3. Sent. 
 
 ti Animalis hom() non percijiit. I Cor. d. 2 3. (|. 2. A. i Uude Thorn,, Intel- 
 
 ii. i.|. lectus credentis determinatur ad unum, 
 
 i Quia scientia^ certitudinem haiient nun per ratioriem, sed per voluntateni ; 
 
 ex naturali lumine rationis Inunauiv, et ideo assensus hie accii)itur pro actu 
 
 qiije potest errare: theologia autem ((jua! intellectus, secundum quod a voluntate 
 
 docet et olijectuin et notitiam tidei, sicnt determinatur ad uninn. 2. 2a!. (\. 2. 
 
 et tidem ipsam) certitudinem liabet ex A. 1. ad 3. 
 
62 Archbishop Laud against 
 
 Sect. 1 6. because it goes higher, and so upon a safer principle than 
 either of the other can in this hfe. 
 
 XIV. — In this particuhir the books cahecl the scripture 
 are commonly and constantly reputed to be the word of God, 
 and so, infallible verity to the least point of them. Doth any 
 man doubt this i the world cannot keep him from going to 
 weigh it at the balance of reason, whether it be the word of 
 God or not. To the same weights he brings the tradition of 
 the church, the inward motives in scripture itself, all testimo- 
 nies within which seem to bear witness to it. And in all this 
 there is no harm : the danger is when a man will use no other 
 scale but reason, or prefer reason before any other scale : for 
 the word of God and the book containing it refuse not to 
 be weighed by i^ reason; but the scale is not large enough to 
 contain, nor the weights to measure out the true virtue and 
 full force of either. Reason then can give no supernatural 
 ground into which a man may resolve his faith that scripture 
 is the word of God infallibly ; yet reason can go so high as it 
 can prove that Christian religion which rests upon the au- 
 thority of this book stands upon surer grounds of nature, 
 reason, connnon equity, and justice, than any thing in the 
 world which any infidel or mere naturalist hath done, doth, 
 or can adhere unto against it, in that which he makes, 
 accounts, or assumes as religion to himself. 
 
 XV. — The ancient Fathers relied upon the scriptures, no 
 Christians more; and having to do with philosophers, (men 
 very well seen in all the subtilties which naturttl reason could 
 teach or learn,) they were often put to it, an^i did as often 
 make it good, that they had sufficient warrant to rely so 
 much as they did upon scripture. In all which disputes, 
 because they were to deal with infidels, they did labour to 
 make good the authority of the book of God by such argu- 
 ments as unbelievers themselves could not but think reason- 
 able, if they weighed them with indifferency. For though I 
 set the mysteries of faith above reason, which is their proper 
 place, yet I would have no man think they contradict reason 
 or the principles thereof : no sure ; for reason by her own 
 
 k Si vol)is, ratiotii, et vcritati coiiseii- iiis, &ic. Torttill. lib. de Cariie Clliristi, 
 
 taiiea videntur, in ]iretio haliete, &c. c. i8. — Rational)ile est credere Dcum 
 
 Justin. IMart. de Mysteriis Reiigionis, esse autorcin soriptvira'. Henr. a Gaud. 
 
 Apol. 2. — Igitur, si fiiit dispositio ratio- Sum. toin. i. Art. 9. <i. 3. 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. (j3 
 
 light can discover how fii-mly the principles of religion are Sect. 16. 
 true, but all the light she hath will never be able to find them 
 false. Nor may any man think that the principles of religion, 
 even this. That the scriptures are the word of Clod, are so 
 indifferent to a natural eye, that it may with as just cause 
 lean to one part of the contradictioii as to the other; for 
 though this truth. That scripture is the word of God, is not 
 iso demonstratively evident a priori as to enforce assent, yet 
 it is strengthened so abundantly with probable arguments, 
 both from the light of nature itself and human testimony, 
 that he must be very wilful and self-conceited that shall dare 
 to suspect it. 
 
 XVI. — Nay, yet farther, "^It is not altogether impossible 
 to prove it, even by reason, a truth infallible, or else to make 
 them deny some apparent principle of their own." For exam- 
 ple ; it is an apparent principle, and with them. That God, or 
 the absolute, prime Agent, cannot be forced out of any pos- 
 session ; for if he could be forced by another greater, he were 
 neither prince, nor absolute, nor "^God, in their own theology. 
 Now they must grant that that God and Christ which the 
 scripture teaches and we believe is the only true God, and 
 no other with him, and so deny the deity which they wor- 
 shipped, or else deny their own principle about the Deity, 
 That God cannot be commanded and forced out of possession. 
 For ""their gods, Saturn, and Serapis, and Jupiter himself, 
 have been adjured by the name of the true and only God, and 
 have been forced out of the bodies they possessed, and con- 
 fessed themselves to be foul and seducing devils : and their 
 confession was to be supposed true in point of reason ; for 
 they that were adored as gods would never belie themselves 
 into devils to their own reproach, especially in the presence 
 of them that worshipped them, were they not forced." This 
 many of the imbelievers saw ; therefore they could not (in 
 
 1 Hooker, Eccles. Pol. b. iii. §. 8 ter, et qiiic(jui(l {l.i'moinim colitis, victi 
 
 Si Plato ipse viveret, et me interro- tlolore ([uod sunt, eloiiiimitiir. Nee «ti- 
 
 gantem non aspernaretur, &c. S. Au- que in turpiuidiiieni sui nonnullis jjra;- 
 
 giist. de vera Relig. c. 3. — Videamus sertim vestroruin assisteiitibus, iiiciiti- 
 
 fpiaterms ratio potest progredi a visibi- iintnr. Ipsis testihus esse eos dfeniones 
 
 libus ad invisibilia, iSic. Ibid. c. 29. de se veruui confiteutibus credite. Ad- 
 
 m Si vim spectes, Deus valentissimus jurati euim per l)e>im verum, et solum 
 
 est. Arist. de I'Muiido, c- 7. — Domini et inviti, &.c'. Aruob. contra Gent. 8, or 
 
 moderatores omnium. Cic. de Leg'. 2. iMimitius Felix as is now thought. 
 
 " Ipse iSaturnus, et Seraj)is, et Jupi- 
 
64 Archbishop) Laud against 
 
 Sect. 1 6. very force of reason) but they must either deny their god or 
 deny their principle in nature. Their long custom would not 
 forsake their god, and their reason could not forget their 
 principle. If reason therefore might judge among them, they 
 could not worship any thing that was under command : and 
 if it be reasonable to do and believe this, then why not rea- 
 sonable also to believe that scripture is his word, given to 
 teach himself and Christ, since there they find Christ ^' doing 
 that, and i' giving power to do it after, which themselves saw 
 executed upon their devil-gods ? 
 y XVII. — Besides, whereas all other written laws have scarce 
 
 had the honour to be duly observed or constantly allowed 
 worthy approbation in . the particular places where they have 
 been established for laws, this law of Christ, and this canon 
 of scripture, the container of it, is or hath been received in 
 almost Hall nations under heaven: and wheresoever it hath 
 been received, it hath been both approved for unchangeable, 
 good and believed for infallible vei'ity. This persuasion could 
 not have been wrought in men of all sorts but by working 
 upon their reason, unless wo shall think all the world unrea- 
 sonable that received it : and certainly Irod did not give this 
 admirable faculty of reasoning to the soul of man for any 
 cause more prime than this, to discover or to judge and allow 
 (within the sphere of its own activity, and not presuming 
 farther) of the way to himself, when and howsoever it should 
 be discovered. 
 
 XVII 1. — One great thing that troubled rational men was 
 that which stumbled the Manichee, (an heresy it was but 
 more than half pagan,) namely, " That somewhat must be 
 believed before much could be known." Wise men use not to 
 believe but what they know ; and the JNIanichee "^ scorned the 
 orthodox Christian as light of belief, promising to lead no 
 disciple after him but upon evident knowledge. This stuni- 
 
 o Matt. xii. 22. anthoritate sulijecit. S. August, de Civ. 
 
 P Matt. xvi. 17. Dei, xi. i. — At in onini orhe terraruni, 
 
 <l Si libri quoquo iiiodo se habent in oniiii (Jnrcia, et iiiiiversis iiatioiiilms, 
 
 sancti tameii diviiiaruni rerum pleni innmiieri sunt, et immensi, qui relietis 
 
 jtrope totius generis liumani confessione i)atnis legibus, &c. ad observantiam 
 
 diffamantnr, &c. S. August, de Util. miosis et t'liristi, &c. Origen. Trepl b.p- 
 
 Cred. c. 7. — Scrijitura sunniia disjiosi- X'^''? '^'- '• 
 
 tione provideutife su]icr omnes omnium i' Irridero in catliob'ca? tidei discipb'na, 
 
 gentium literas, omnia sibi geneni inge- (|Ui)d juberentur Jiomines credere, non 
 
 niorum humanonun diviiia exceliens anteni, 6cc. 8. August. Ketraet. i. 14. 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 65 
 
 bles many; but yet the principle, That somewhat must be Sect. 1 6. 
 believed before much can be known, stands firm in reason 
 still : for if in all sciences there be some principles which can- 
 not be proved ; if reason be able to see this and confess it ; 
 if almost all artists have granted it ; if in the mathematics, 
 where are the exactest demonstrations, there be qumlam 
 postidata, some things to be first demanded and granted be- 
 fore the demonstration can proceed; who can justly deny 
 that to divinity, a science of the highest object, God himself, 
 which he easily and reasonably grants to inferior sciences, 
 which are more within his reach I And as all sciences suppose 
 some principles without proving, so have they almost all some 
 text, some authority upon which they rely in some measure : 
 and it is reason they should ; for though these sciences make 
 not their texts infallible, as divinity doth, yet full consent, 
 and prudent examination, and long continuance, have won 
 reputation to them and settled reputation upon them very 
 deservedly. And were these texts more void of truth than 
 they are, yet it were fit and reasonable to uphold their credit, 
 that novices and young beginners in a science, which are not 
 abio to work strongly upon reason, nor reason upon them, 
 may have authority to believe till they can learn to conclude 
 from principles, and so to know. Is this also reasonable in 
 other sciences, and shall it not be so in theology, to have a 
 text, a scripture, a rule, which novices may be taught first to 
 believe, that so they may after come to the knowledge of 
 those things which out of this rich principle and Hreasure are 
 deducible? I yet see not how right reason can deny these 
 grounds : and if it cannot, then a mere natural man may be 
 thus far convinced that the text of God is a very credible 
 text. ^ 
 
 XIX. — Well, these are the four ways by most of which 
 men offer to prove the scripture to be the word of God, as by 
 a divine and infiiUible warrant. And, it seems, no one of 
 these doth it alone. The tradition of the present church is 
 
 s And therefore St. Atip;astine, de taxat ; no question but to make tliem 
 
 Doct. Christ, ii. 8, would have men ready against they uiulerstood it; and 
 
 make themselves perfect in reading the as schoolmasters make their scholars 
 
 letter of the scripture even before they con their grammar rules by lieart, tliat 
 
 understood it : Eas notas habeat,, etsi tliey may be ready for their use when 
 
 nondum intellectu, tamen lectione dun- they better imderstand them. 
 
66 Archbishop Laud against 
 
 Sect. 1 6. too weak, because that is not absolutely divine: the light 
 
 which is in scripture itself is not bright enough, it cannot 
 
 bear sufficient witness to itself: the testimony of the Holy 
 
 Ghost, that is most infallible, but ordinarily it is not so nuich 
 
 as considerable in this question, which is not how or by what 
 
 means we believe, but how the scripture may be proposed as 
 
 a credible object fit for belief: and for reason, no man expects 
 
 i that that should prove it ; it doth service enough, if it enable 
 
 1 us to disprove that which misguided men conceive against it. 
 
 ! If none of these then be an absolute and sufficient means to 
 
 prove it, either we must find out another, or see what can be 
 
 more wrought out of these. And to all this again A. 0. 
 
 says nothing. 
 
 XX. — For the tradition of the church then, certain it is 
 we must distinguish the church before we can judge right of 
 the validity of the tradition : for if the speech be of the prime 
 Christian church, the apostles, disciples, and such as had 
 immediate revelation from heaven, no question but the voice 
 and tradition of this church is divine, not aliqiio modo, in a 
 sort, but simply ; and the word of God from them is of like 
 validity written or delivered. And against this tradition (of 
 which kind this. That the books of scripture are the word of 
 God, is the most general and uniform) the church of England 
 never excepted. And when 'St. Augustine said, "I would 
 not believe the gospel unless the authority of the catholic 
 church moved me," (which place you urged at the conference, 
 though you are now content to slide by it,) some of your own 
 will not endure should be understood save " of the church in 
 the time of the apostles only, and ''some of the church in 
 general, not excluding afterages ; but sure to include Christ 
 and his apostles : and the certainty is there, abundance of 
 certainty in itself; but how far that is evident to us shall 
 after appear. 
 
 XXI. — But this will not serve your turn. The tradition 
 of the present church must be as infallible as that of the 
 
 t Cont. Epis. Fund. lib. i. c. 5. Ego p. i. lib. i. c. 4. 
 
 vero noil crederein evanurelio, nisi me ca- x Biel. lect. 22. in C. Missa?. A tem- 
 
 tholica? ecclesiw commoveret authoritas. jtore (;;hristi et apostolorum, &c. And 
 
 u Intelligitur solum de erclesia qua^ so doth St. Augustine take Eccles. con- 
 
 fuit tenipoie apostolorum. Ocham. Dial, tra Fund. 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 67 
 
 primitive : but the contrary to this is proved ybefore, because Sect. i6. 
 this voice of the present church is not simply divine. To 
 what end then serves any tradition of the present church ? 
 To what I why, to a very good end. For, first, it serves by 
 a full consent to work upon the minds of unbelievers, to move 
 them to read and to consider the scripture, which (they hear 
 by so many wise, learned, and devout men) is of no meaner 
 esteem than the word of God. And, secondly, it serves 
 among novices, weaklings, and doubters in the faith, to in- 
 struct and confirm them, till they may acquaint themselves 
 with and understand the scripture, which the church delivers 
 as the word of God. And thus again some of your own 
 understand the forecited place of St. Augustine, " I would 
 not believe the gospel" &c.; ^for he speaks it either of novices 
 or doubters in the faith, or else of such as were in part infi- 
 dels. You at the conference (though you omit it here) would 
 needs have it that St. Augustine spake even of the ^faithful, 
 which I cannot yet think ; for he speaks to the Manichees, 
 and they had a great part of the infidel in them. And the 
 words immediately before these are, " If thou shouldest find 
 one, qui evangeUo nondmn credit, which did not yet believe the 
 gospel, what wouldest thou do to make him believe T" "^Ego 
 vero non, " Truly I would not" &c. So to these two ends it 
 serves, and there need be no question between us. But then, 
 every thing that is the first inducer to believe is not by and 
 by either the principal motive or the chief and last object of 
 belief upon which a man may rest his faith ; unless we shall 
 be of c. Jacobus Almain's opinion, that we are ^^er prius et 
 
 y Sect. 1 6. num. VI. he speaks of himself when he did not 
 
 z Sive iniideles, sive in fide novitii. believe. 
 
 Canus, Loc. lib. ii. c. 8. — Neganti, aut c Certum est quod tenemur credere 
 
 omnino nescienti scripturam. Staph Re- omnibus contentis in sacro canone, quia 
 
 lect. Cent. 4. q. I. A. 3. ecclesia credit ex ea ratione solum. Ergo 
 
 a Quid si fateamur fideles etiam ]ier prius et magis tenenuir credere ec- 
 
 ecclesiaj authoritate commoveri, ut scrip- clesiis quam evangelio. Ahnain. in 3. 
 
 tnras recipiant ? non tamen iude sequi- Dist. 24. (,'onclus. 6. dub. 6. And, to 
 
 tur eos hoc modo jienitus persuaderi, make a show of jiroof for this, he faisi- 
 
 aut nulla alia fortioreque ratione induci. fies St. Augustine most notoriously, and 
 
 Quis autem Christianus est, quern ec- reads that known place, not nisi me 
 
 clesia Christi, commeudans scripturam commoveret, (as all read it,) but compel- 
 
 Christi,non commoveat? \A'hitak. Disp. leret. Patet ; quia dicit Augustinus, 
 
 de Sacra Scriptura, Cont. i. q. 3. c. 8. evangelio non crederem, nisi ad hoc me 
 
 ubi citat locum hunc S. August. compelleret ecclesiaj authoritas. Ibid. 
 
 b Et ibid. Quibus ()t)temperavi di- And so also Gerson reads it, in Decla- 
 
 centibus Credite evangelio Therefore rat. Veritatum quaj credendaj sunt, &c. 
 
 F 2 
 
68 Archhisho}) Laud against 
 
 Sect. 1 6. magis^ first and more bound to believe the church than the 
 gospel; which your own learned men, as you may see by 
 ^Mel. Canus, reject as extreme foul, and so indeed it is. The 
 first knowledge then (after the quid nominis is known by 
 grammar) that helps to open a man's understanding, and 
 prepares him to be able to demonstrate a truth and make it 
 evident, is his logic ; but when he hath made a demonstra- 
 tion, he resolves the knowledge of his conclusion, not into his 
 grammatical or logical principles, but into the immediate 
 principles out of whicli it is deduced. So in this particular, 
 a man is probably led by the authority of the present church, 
 as by the first informing, inducing, persuading means, to be- 
 lieve the scripture to be the word of God ; but when he hath 
 studied, considered, and compared this word with itself and 
 with other writings, with the help of ordinary grace, and a 
 mind morally induced and reasonably persuaded by the voice 
 of the church, the scripture then gives greater and higher 
 reasons of credibility to itself than tradition alone could give. 
 And then he that believes resolves his last and full assent — 
 that scripture is of divine authority — into internal arguments 
 found in the letter itself, though found by the help and direc- 
 tion of tradition without and grace within : and the resolution 
 that is rightly grounded may not endure to j)itch and rest 
 itself upon the helps, but upon that divine light which the 
 scripture no question hath in itself, but is not kindled till 
 these helps come. ^Thy word is a, light: so David. A light? 
 therefore it is as much manifestatimmi sui as alterius, a mani- 
 festation to itself as to other things which it shews ; but still, 
 not till the candle be lighted, not till there hath been a pre- 
 paring instruction what light it is. Children call the sun and 
 moon candles, God's candles ; they see the light as well as 
 men, but cannot distinguish between them till some tradition 
 and education hath informed their reason : and f animalis 
 homo, the natural man, sees some light of moral counsel and 
 instruction in scripture as well as believers ; but he takes all 
 
 part. i. p. 414. §• 3- But in a most an- e P.sal. cxix. 105. Sanctarnm scrip- 
 
 cient manuscript in Corpus Cliristi col- turarnni lumen. S. August, lib. de Vera 
 
 lege library in Camltriilge, the words Relig. c. 7. — Quid Incem srri])turarum 
 
 ;.re )usi me commoreret, &c. vhuIs umliris ? is.c. S. August, lib. de 
 
 il Canus, Loc. lit), ii. c. 8 fol. 34. b. ]\lor. Eccl. Cathol. c. 35. 
 
 — Sect. 16. num. XI. i 1 Cor. ii. 14. 
 
I 
 
 Fisher the Jesuit. 69 
 
 that glorious lustre for candlelight, and cannot distinguish Sect. 16. 
 
 between the sun and twelve to the pound, till tradition of the 
 
 church, and God's grace put to it, have cleared his under- 
 
 , ffstanding. So tradition of the pi'esent church is the first 
 
 ^ \ moral motive to belief ; but the belief itself that the scripture 
 
 I I is the word of God rests S upon the scripture, when a man 
 
 ? r finds it to answer and exceed all that which the church gave 
 
 I in testimony, as will after appear : and as in the voice of the 
 
 primitive and apostolical church there was ^ simply divine 
 
 authority delivering the scripture as God's word, so, after 
 
 tradition of the present church hath taught and informed the 
 
 soul, the voice of God is plainly lieai'd in scripture itself. And 
 
 then here is double authority, and both divine, that confirms 
 
 scripture to be the word of God — tradition of the apostles 
 
 delivering it, and the internal worth and argument in the 
 
 scripture, obvious to a soul prepared by the present church's 
 
 tradition and God's grace. 
 
 XXII. — The difficulties which are pretended against this 
 are not many, and they will easily vanish. For, first, you 
 pretend we go to private revelations for light to know scrip- 
 ture. No, we do not, you see it is excluded out of the very 
 state of the question ; and we go to the tradition of the pre- 
 sent church, and by it, as well as you. Here we differ : we 
 use the tradition of the present church as the first motive, 
 not as the last resolution of our faith ; we resolve only into 
 'prime tradition apostolical and scripture itself. 
 
 XXI T I. — Secondly, you pretend we do not nor cannot 
 know the prime apostolical tradition but by the tradition of 
 the present church ; and that, therefore, if the tradition of 
 the present church be not God's unwritten word, and divine, 
 we cannot yet know scripture to be scripture by a divine 
 authority. Well, suppose I could not know the prime tra- 
 
 & Origen, TrepJ ap-xSiv 1. iv. c. i, went spake, ultimata resolutio fidei was in 
 
 this way, yet was he a great deal nearer Deum, not in ipsos jier se, much more 
 
 the prime tradition than we are ; for shall it be in Deum than in ■prcesenlem 
 
 being to prove that the scrii)tures were ecclemim, and into the writings of the 
 
 inspii-ed from God, lie saith, De hoc apostles than into the words of their 
 
 assignabimus ex ipsis divinis scriptnris, successors made up into a tradition, 
 
 qufe nos competenter moverint, &c. i C^hristiana ecclesia proplietarum 
 
 h Principaliter tamen (etiam et hie) scri])tis et apostolorum pnedicatione in- 
 
 Credimus propter Deum, non apostolos, itio fundata fuit, iibicunque reperietur 
 
 &c. Henr. a Gand. Sum. A. 9. q. 3. ea doctrina, &c. Calv. Instit. 1. i. c. 5. 
 
 Now if, where the apostles themselves §.2. 
 
70 A rchhishop Laud against 
 
 Sect. 1 6. dition to be divine but by the present church ; yet it doth 
 not follow that therefore I cannot know scripture to be the 
 word of God by a divine authority, because divine tradition is 
 not the sole and only means to prove it : for suppose I had 
 not nor could have full assurance of apostolical tradition 
 divine, yet the moral persuasion, reason, and force of the 
 present church, is ground enough to move any reasonable man 
 that it is fit he should read the scripture, and esteem very 
 reverently and highly of it ; and this once done, the scripture 
 hath then in and homo arguments enough to put a soul, that 
 hath but ordinary grace, out of doubt that scripture is the 
 word of God, infallible and divine. 
 
 ; XXIV. — Thirdly, you pretend that we make the scripture 
 / absolutely and fully to be known lumine suo, by the light and 
 testimony which it hath in and gives to itself. Against this 
 you give reason for yourselves and proof from us. Your rea- 
 son is, " If there be sufficient light in scripture to shew itself, 
 , then every man that can and doth but read it may know it 
 ■ presently to be the divine word of God, which we see by daily 
 experience men neither do nor can.'' First, it is not abso- 
 lutely nor universally true, There is ^ sufficient light, therefore 
 \ every man may see it : blind men are men, and cannot see it ; 
 iand heimial men, in the apostle's judgment, are such : nor 
 may we deny and put out this light as insufficient because 
 blind eyes cannot and pei'verse eyes will not see it, no more 
 (than we may deny meat to be sufficient for nourishment, 
 though men that are heart-sick cannot eat it. Next, we do 
 not say that there is such a full light in scripture as that 
 isvery man upon the first sight must yield to it, such light as 
 is found in prime principles ; " Every whole is greater than a 
 part of the same ;" and this, " The same thing cannot be and 
 inot be at the same time and in the same respect." These 
 carry a natural light with them, and evident ; for the terms 
 are no sooner understood than the principles themselves are 
 fully known, to the convincing of man's understanding, and 
 so they are the beginning of knowledge ; which, where it is 
 perfect, dwells in full light : but such a full light we do neither 
 
 ^ And where Hooker uses tliis very light," but, " if that light be evi- 
 argument, as he doth b. iii. §. 8, his dent.'''' 
 M'ords are not, /' If there be sufficient 1 i Cor. ii. 14. 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 71 
 
 say is, nor require to bo in scripture; and if any particular Sect. 1 6. 
 man do, let him answer for himself. The question is only of 
 such a light in scripture as is of force to breed faith that it 
 is the word of God, not to make a perfect knowledge. Now 
 faith, of whatsoever it is, this or other principle, is an ^ evi- 
 dence as well as knowledge, and the belief is firmer than any 
 knowledge can be, because it rests upon divine authority, 
 which cannot deceive ; whereas knowledge (or at least ho that 
 thinks he knows) is not ever certain in deductions from prin- 
 ciples. "But the evidence is not so clear; for it is ° of things 
 not seen, in regard of the object ; and in regard of the subject 
 that sees, it is vin wnigmate, in a glass or dark speaking. 
 Now God doth not require a full demonstrative knowledge in 
 us that the scripture is his word, and therefore in his provi- 
 dence hath kindled in it no light for that; but he requires our 
 faith of it, and such a certain demonstration as may fit that : 
 and for that he hath left sufficient light in scripture to reason 
 and grace meeting, where the soul is morally prepared by 
 the tradition of the church ; unless you be of q Bellarmine's 
 opinion, " That to believe there are any divine scriptures is 
 not omnino necessary to salvation." 
 
 m "EAeyxos- ^eb. xi. i. And if he means by omnino that it is 
 n Sect. 1 6. num. XIII. not in any u-ise necessary, then it is 
 o Heb. xi. i. sensibly false; for the greatest uphold- 
 P I Cor. xiii. 12. And A. C. con- ers of tradition that ever were made the 
 fesses, p. 52, that this very thintj in scripture very necessary in all the ages 
 question may be known infiillil)ly when of the church. So it was necessary be- 
 lt is known but obscurely. Et Scotus cause it was given, and given because 
 in 3. Dist. 23. q. i. fol. 41. B. Hoc God thought it necessary. Besides, 
 mocio facile est videre, quomodo fides upon Roman grounds, this, I think, 
 est cum ffinigmate et obscuritate. Quia will follow : That which the tradition of 
 habitus fidei non credit articulum esse tlie jiresent church delivers as necessary 
 verum ex evidentia objecti, sed propter to i)elieve, is omnino necessary to salva- 
 hoc quod assentit veracitati infundeiuis tion ; but tiiat there are divine scrip- 
 habitum, et in hoc revelantis credibilia. tures, the tradition of the present church 
 q Credere ullas esse divinas scriptu- delivers as necessary to believe : there- 
 ras, non est omnino necessariura ad sa- fore, to believe there are divine scrip- 
 lutem. liellarm.de Eccles. hb. iii. c. 14. tures is omnino (be the sense of the 
 I will not l)reak my discourse to rifle word what it can) necessary to salva- 
 this speech of Bellannine; it is bad tion. So Bellarmine is herein foul, and 
 enough in the best sense that favour unable to stand upon his own ground ; 
 itself can give it. For if he mean by and he is the more, partly because he 
 omnino that it is not altor/ethcr or sim- avouches this proposition for truth alter 
 pli/ necessary to believe there is divine the New Testament written, and partly 
 scripture and a written word of God, because he might have seen the state of 
 that is false, that being granted which this proposition carefully examined by 
 is among all Christians, that there is a Gandavo, and distinguished by times, 
 scripture : and God would never have Sum. p. I. A. 8. q. 4. fine, 
 given a supernatural unnecessary thing. 
 
 F 4 
 
72 Archbishop Land against 
 
 Sect. i6. XXV. — The authority which you pretend against this is 
 out of f Hooker : " Of things necessary, the very chiefest is to 
 know what books we are bound to esteem holy ; which point 
 is confessed impossible for the scripture itself to teach." Of 
 this sBrerely (the storehouse for all priests that will be idle 
 and yet seem well read) tells us that "'Hooker gives a very 
 sensible demonstration : ' It is not the word of God which 
 doth or possibly can assure us that we do well to think it is 
 his word ; for if any one book of scripture did give testimony 
 to all, yet still that scripture which giveth credit to the rest 
 would require another to give credit unto it ; nor could we 
 ever come to any pause to rest our assurance this way : so 
 that unless, beside scripture, there were something that might 
 assure,'" &c. And " "this he acknowledgeth," saith Brerely, 
 " is the authority of God's church." Certainly Hooker gives a 
 true and a sensible demonstration ; but Brerely wants fidelity 
 and integrity in citing him ; for, in the first place. Hooker's 
 speech is, " Scripture itself cannot teach this ;" nor can the 
 truth say that scripture itself can ; it must needs ordinarily 
 have tradition to prepare the mind of a man to receive it. 
 And in the next place, where he speaks so sensibly, that 
 scripture cannot bear witness to itself, nor one part of it 
 to another, that is grounded upon nature, which admits no 
 created thing to be witness to itself, and is acknowledged by 
 our Saviour; ^If I hear witness to myself, my tvitness is not 
 true, that is, is not of force to be reasonably accepted for 
 truth. But then it is more than manifest that Hooker deli- 
 vers his demonstration of scripture alone ; for if scripture 
 hath another proof, nay, many other proofs to usher it and 
 lead it in, then no question it can both prove and approve 
 itself. His words are, " So that unless, besides scripture, 
 there be" &c. " Besides scripture ;" therefore he excludes 
 not scripture, though he call for another proof to lead it in, 
 and help in assurance, namely, tradition, which no man that 
 hath his brains about him denies. In the two other places 
 Brerely falsifies shamefully ; for, folding up all that Hooker 
 says in these words, " This (other means to assure us besides 
 
 r B. i. §.14. u B. ii. §. 7. and b. iii. §. 8. 
 
 ^ Protest. Ap.'jl. Tract, i. §. 10. )i..5. x John v. 31 ; he speaks of himself 
 
 t li. ii. §. 4. as man. John viii. 13. 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 73 
 
 scripture) is the authority of God's church," he wrinkles that Sect. i6. 
 worthy author desperately, and shrinks up his meaning. For 
 in the former place abused by Brerely, no man can set a better 
 state of the question between scripture and tradition than 
 Hooker doth: his words are these; "xThe scripture is the 
 ground of our belief ; the authority of man (that is the name 
 he gives to tradition) is the key which opens the door of 
 entrance into the knowledge of the scripture."" I ask now, 
 When a man is entered and hath viewed a house, and upon 
 viewing likes it, and upon liking resolves unchangeably to 
 dwell there, doth he set up his resolution upon the key that 
 let him in l No sure, but upon the goodness and commodious- 
 ness which he sees in the house. And this is all the difference 
 (that I know) between us in this point ; in which do you 
 grant (as you ought to do) that we resolve our faith into 
 scripture as the ground, and we will never deny that ti'adition 
 is the key that lets us in. In the latter place Hooker is as 
 plain as constant to himself and truth : his words are ; "^The 
 first outward motive leading men so to esteem of the scrip- 
 ture is the authority of God's church," &c. " But afterwards, 
 the more we bestow our labour in reading or learning the 
 mysteries thereof, the more we find that the thing itself doth 
 answer our received opinion concerning it ; so that the former 
 inducement, prevailing somewhat with us before, doth now 
 much more prevail, when the very thing hath ministered fur- 
 ther reason." Here then again, in his judgment, tradition is 
 the first inducement, but the further reason and ground is 
 the scripture. And resolution of faith ever settles upon the 
 furthest reason it can, not upon the first inducement. So 
 that the state of this question is firm, and yet plain enough 
 to him that will not shut his eyes. 
 
 XXVI. — Now hero, after a long silence, A. C. thrusts him- A. C. p. 52. 
 self in again, and tells me, " That if I would consider the 
 tradition of the church, not only as it is the tradition of a 
 company of fallible men, in which sense the authority of it 
 (as himself confesses) is but human and fallible, &c., but as 
 the tradition of a company of men assisted by Christ and his 
 Holy Spirit ; in that sense I might easily find it more than 
 
 y B. ii. §. 7. z B. iii. §. 8. 
 
74 Archhishop Laud afjainst 
 
 Sect. 1 6. an introduction ; indeed, as much as would amount to an 
 infallible motive." Well, I have considered the tradition of 
 the present church both these ways ; and I find that A. C. 
 confesses that in the first sense the tradition of the church is 
 mere human authority, and no more ; and therefore, in this 
 sense, it may serve for an introduction to this belief, but no 
 more : and in the second sense, as it is not the tradition of 
 a company of men only, but of men assisted by Christ and 
 his Spirit; in this second sense I cannot find that the tradition 
 of the present church is of divine and infallible authority, till 
 A. C. can prove that this company of men (the Eonian pre- 
 lates and their clergy he means) arc so fully, so clearly, so 
 permanently assisted by Christ and his Spirit, as may reach 
 to infallibility, to a divine infallibility, in this or any other 
 principle which they teach : for every assistance of Christ 
 and the blessed Spirit is not enough to make the authority 
 of any company of men divine and infallible, but such and so 
 great an assistance only as is purposely given to that effect. 
 Such an assistance the prophets under the old testament 
 and the apostles under the new had ; but neither the high 
 priest with his clergy in the old, nor any company of prelates 
 or priests in the new, since the apostles, over had it. And 
 
 A. C. p. 52. therefore, though at the entreaty of A. C. I have considered 
 this very well, yet I cannot, no, not in this assisted sense, 
 think the tradition of the present church divine and infallible, 
 or " such company of men to be worthy of divine and infallible 
 credit, and sufficient to breed in us divine and infallible faith ;"" 
 
 A. C. p. 52. which I am sorry A. 0. should affirm so boldly as he doth. 
 What ! that company of men (the Roman bishop and his 
 clergy) of divine and infallible credit, and sufficient to breed 
 in us divine and infallible faith ! Good God ! whither will 
 these men go ? Surely they are toise in their f/eneration, but 
 that makes them never a whit the more the ^children of light. 
 And could they put this home upon the world, (as they are 
 gone far in it,) what might they not effi-ct ! How might they 
 and would they then lord it over the taith of Christendom, 
 contrary to ^^St. Peter's rule, (whoso successors certainly in 
 this they are not.) But I pray, if this company of men bo 
 
 a Luke xvi. 8. b x Pet. v. 3. 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 15 
 
 infallibly assisted, whence is it that this very company have Sect. 1 6. 
 erred so dangerously as they have, not only in some other 
 things, but even in this particular, by equaling the tradition 
 of the present church to the written word of God ? which is 
 a doctrine unknown to the '^primitive church, and which frets 
 upon the very foundation itself by justling with it. So, belike, 
 he that hath but half an indifferent eye may see this assisted 
 company have erred, and yet we must wink in obedience and 
 think them infallible. 
 
 XXVII. — But A. 0. would have me consider again, " That A. C. p. 52. 
 it is as easy to take the tradition of the present church in the 
 two forenamed senses, as the present scriptures printed and 
 approved by men of this age : for in the first sense, the very 
 scriptures," saith he, " considered as printed and approved by 
 men of this age, can be no more than of human credit ; but 
 in the second sense, as printed and approved by men assisted 
 by God's Spirit, for true copies of that which was first \vi"it- 
 ten, then we may give infallible credit to them." Well, I 
 have considered this too ; and I can take the printing and 
 approving the copies of holy writ in these two senses ; and I 
 can and do make a difference between copies printed and 
 approved by mere moral men, and men assisted by God's 
 Spirit. And yet for the printing only, a skilful and an able 
 moral man may do better service to the church than an illi- 
 terate man, though assisted in other things by God's Spirit. 
 But when I have considered all this, what then? the scrip- 
 ture, being put in writing, is a thing visibly existent ; and if 
 any error be in the print, it is easily corrigible by ''former 
 copies. Tradition is not so easily observed, nor so safely 
 kept. And, howsoever, to come home to that which A. C. A. C. p. 53. 
 
 c St. Basil goes as far for traditions therefore must of necessity make scrip- 
 
 as any ; for he says, Parem vim habent tare superior, inasmuch as that which 
 
 ad pietatem. L. de Sp. Sanct. c. 27. But is able to try another is of greater force 
 
 first, he speaks of aj)ostoHcal tradition, and superior dignity in that use thaa 
 
 not of the tradition of the present the thing tried by it. And Stapleton 
 
 church. Secondly, the learned take ex- himself confesses, Traditionem recen- 
 
 ceptions to this book of St. Basil, as tiorera et posteriorem, sicut et particii- 
 
 corrupted. B]). Audr. Opusc. cont. Pe- larem, nullo modo cmn scri))tura, vel 
 
 ron. p. 9. Thirdly, St. Basil himself, cum traditionibus prius a se explicatis 
 
 Serm. de Fide, ])rofesses that he uses comparandam esse. Staph Relect. Cont. 
 
 sometimes agrapha, sed ea solum quas 5. q. 5. A. 2. 
 
 non sunt aliena a pia secundum scrip- d Ut §. 18. num. IV.; ex S.August, 
 
 turani sententia. So he makes the cont. Faust, lib. xxxii. c. 16. 
 scripture theii* touchstone or trial ; and 
 
76 Archhisho'p Land against 
 
 Sect. 1 6. infers upon it, namely, " That the tradition of the present 
 church may be accepted in these two senses :" and if this be 
 all that he will infer, (for his pen here is troubled and for- 
 sakes him, whether by any check of conscience or no, I know 
 not,) I will, and you see, have granted it already, without 
 more ado, with this caution, that every company of men 
 assisted by God's Spirit are not assisted to this height, to be 
 infallible by divine authority. 
 A.C. p. 53. XXVIII. — For all this A. 0. will needs give a needless 
 proof of the business ; namely, " That there is the promise of 
 Christ's and his Holy Spirit's continual presence and assist- 
 ance, Luke X. 16. Matt, xxviii. 19, 20. John xiv. 16, not only 
 to the apostles, but to their successors also, the lawfully sent 
 pastors and doctors of the church in all ages ; and that this 
 promise is no less, but rather more expressly to them in their 
 preaching by word of mouth, than in Avriting, or reading, or 
 printing, or approving of copies of what was formerly written 
 by the apostles." And to all this I shall briefly say, that 
 there is a promise of Christ's and the Holy Spirit's continual 
 presence and assistance. I do likewise grant most freely 
 ! that this promise is, on the part of Christ and the Holy 
 : Ghost, most really and fully performed. But then this pro- 
 1 mise must not be extended further than it was made. It was 
 ' made of continual presence and assistance ; that I grant : 
 and it was made to the apostles and their successors ; that I 
 grant too, but in a different degree ; for it was of continual 
 and infallible assistance to the apostles, but to their suc- 
 cessors of continual and fitting assistance, but not infallible. 
 ! And therefore the lawfully sent pastors and doctors of the 
 I church in all ages have had and shall have continual assist- 
 I ance, but, by A. C.'s leave, not infallible, at least, not divine 
 j and infallible, cither in writing, reading, printing, or approv- 
 j ing copies. And I believe A. C. is the first that durst affirm 
 this : I thought he would have kept the pope's prerogative 
 entire, that he only might have been infallible ; and not he 
 neither, but in cathedra sat down and well advised. And 
 well advised — yes, that is right: «^but he may be sat, and 
 
 e Nam miiltae sunt decretales ha»re- nisi manifeste constet, &c. Ja. Almain. 
 
 ticae, sicut dicit Ocham. Et firmitei' in 3. Sent. D. 24. q. unica, Conclns. 6. 
 
 hoc credo, sed non licet dogmatizare Dub. 6. fine. And Alphons. a Castro 
 
 oppositum, quoiiiam sunt determinata?, both says and proves, Ccelestinum pa- 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 77 
 
 not well advised, even i^i cathedra. And now shall we have Sect. i6. 
 all the lawfully sent pastors and doctors of that church in all 
 ages infallible too I Here is a deal of infallibility indeed, and 
 yet error store. The truth is, the Jesuits have a nionth''s 
 mind to this infallibility; and though A.O. out of his bounty 
 is content to extend it to all the lawfully sent pastors of the 
 church, yet to his own society, (juestionless, he means it 
 chiefly ; as did the apologist to whom Casaubon replies, to 
 Fronto Ducseus. The words of the f apologist are, " Let day 
 
 and night life and death, be joined together, and then 
 
 there will be some hope that heresy may fall upon the person 
 of a Jesuit." Yea, marry, this is something indeed ; now we 
 know where infallibility is to be found. But, for my present 
 occasion, touching the lawfully sent pastors of the church, &c. 
 I will give no other confutation of it than that Mr. Fisher 
 and A. C. (if they be two men) are lawfully sent pastors and 
 doctors of the church ; at least, I am sure they will assume 
 they are ; and yet they are not infallible, which, I think, 
 appears plain enough in some of their errors manifested by 
 this discourse and elsewhere. Or if they do hold themselves 
 infallible, let them speak it out, as the apologist did. 
 
 XXIX. — As for the three places of scripture which A. C. A. c. p. 53. 
 cites, they are of old alleged, and well known in this contro- 
 versy. The first is in St. Luke x., where Christ saith, ^He 
 that heareth you heareth me. This was absolutely true in the 
 h apostles, who kept themselves to that which was revealed 
 by Christ : but it was to be but conditionally true in their 
 'successors; He that heareth you heareth me; that is, so long 
 
 pam errasse, non ut privatam personam, hwresin cadere." Isa. C'asauhon. Ep. ad 
 
 sed lit pa))am. Adv. Ha*r. lib. i. c. 4. Front. Duc;eiim. Lond. 161 1. 
 And the Gloss confesses, eiim errare g Luke x. 16. 
 
 posse, in i',. 24. q. i. C. A. Recta ergo. h Per quod docet quicquid per sanctos 
 
 f Nam in tide qnidem Jesuitam er- apostolos dicitur ai'ceptandnm esse, quia 
 
 rare non passe, atque adeo esse hoc qui illos audit Christum audit, &c. 
 
 unicum twv hZwarHv, caeteris, qua; so- S. Cyrillus ajiud Thom. in Catena. — Et 
 
 lent a poetis j)hirima commemorari, Dominus dedit apostolis suis potesta- 
 
 posthac aniuimerandum, si nescis, mi tern evangelii, jier quos et veritatem, id 
 
 Frojito, et ]>uto nescire, docel)0 te, ab est, Dei Fihuni, cognovimiis, &;c. Qni- 
 
 ajjologista doctus, hoc i])sum disertis bus et dixit Dominus, Qui ros undit, &c. 
 
 verbis affirmante. Sic ille cap. 3. ejus Iren. prn-f. in hb. iii. adv. Hser. tine, 
 exemplaris quod ad sereniss. regem fiiit i Dicit ad apostolos, ac jier hoc ad 
 
 missum, pagina 119; " Jungantur in omnes pra-positos, qui apostolis vicaria 
 
 unum," ait, "dies cum nocte, tenebra3 ordinatione succedunt. 8. Cyjirian. lib. 
 
 cum luce, calidinn cum frigido, sanitas iv. epist. 9. But St. Cyprian duth not 
 
 cum morbo, vita cum morte : et erit say that this speech of our Saviour's 
 
 tum spes aliqua posse in caput Jesuiiie was cequaUter dictum, alike and equally 
 
78 Archhishop Laud against 
 
 Sect. 1 6. and so 'far as you J speak my words, and not your own. For 
 J^ where the command is for preaching, the restraint is added : 
 Go (saith Christ) and teach all nations : but you may not 
 preach all things what you please, but all things icJiich I have 
 commanded you: the publication is yours, the doctrine is 
 mine ; and where the doctrine is not mine, there your publi- 
 cation is beyond or short of your commission. The second 
 place is in St. !Matth. xxviii. There Christ says again, '/ am 
 with you alway even unto the end of the world. Yes, most cer- 
 tain it is, present by his Spirit ; for else in bodily presence 
 he continued not with his apostles but during his abode on 
 earth. And this promise of his spiritual presence was to 
 their successors, else why to the end of the icorld ? the apostles 
 did not, could not, live so long : but then to the "^ successors 
 the promise goes no further than / am with you always ; 
 which reaches to continual assistance, but not to divine and 
 infallible. Or if he think me mistaken, let him shew me any 
 one Father of the church that extends the sense of this place 
 to divine and infallible assistance granted hereby to all the 
 apostles' successors. Sure I am " St. Gregory thought other- 
 wise ; for he says plainly, " That in those gifts of God which 
 concern other men's salvation, (of which preaching of the 
 gospel is one,) the Spirit of Christ, the Holy Ghost, doth not 
 always abide in the preachers," be they never so lawfully sent 
 pastors or doctors of the church. And if the Holy Ghost 
 
 spoken and promised to the apostles than that to the end some will always 
 
 and the succeeding hishops. And I l)e- he in the world tit for Christ hy his 
 
 lieve A. C. will not dare to say, in plain Spirit and grace to inhabit, Divina 
 
 and express terms, that this speech, lie mansione et iidiabitatione digiii. Rah. 
 
 that heareth you hearcth 7ne, doth as in IMatt. xxviii. 19, 20. Pergatis ha- 
 
 amply belong to every Roman priest as lientes Dominum protectoreni et du- 
 
 to St. Peter and the aiiostles: no, a great cem, saith St. Cyprian, lib. iv. epist. i. 
 
 deal of difference will become them well, bnt he doth not say how far forth. 
 
 i Be ye foUoireis of 7ne, even as I also And, Loqnitnr fidelibus sicnt iini cor- 
 am of Christ, I Cor. xi. i. and i Thess. pori. S. Chrysost. Homil. in S. IMatth. 
 i. 6. And if St. Chrysostom enlarge it so 
 
 J And so Venerable Bede expressly, far, I hope A. C. will not extend the 
 
 both for hearing the word, and for con- assistance given or promised here to the 
 
 temning it. " For neither of these," whole body of the faithful to an infal- 
 
 saith he, " belong only to them which lible and divine assistance in every of 
 
 saw our Saviour in the flesh, but to all them, as well as in the pastors and 
 
 fiodie qitoque ; but with this limitation, doctors. 
 
 if they hear or despise cvangelii vcrbu, n In illis donis quibus salus alionim 
 
 not the preachers' own." Beda in Luc. quwritnr (([ualia sunt prophetic, et in- 
 
 X. 15, 16. terpretationes sermonum, &c.) Spiritus 
 
 k ]\Iatt. xxviii. 20. Sanctus nequaquam semper in priedica- 
 
 ' Matt, xxviii. 19,20. toribus permanet. S. Greg. Moral, lib. 
 
 m Rabanus Maur. goes no further ii. c. 29. princ. edit. Basil. 1551. 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 79 
 
 doth not always abide in the preachers, then most certainly Sect. i6. 
 he doth not abide in them to a divine infallibility always. 
 The third place is in St. John xiv., where Christ says, o The 
 Comforter, the Holy Ghost, shall abide urith you for ever. Most 
 true again ; for the Holy Ghost did abide with the apostles 
 according to Christ's promise there made, and shall abide 
 with their successors for ever, to P comfort and preserve them. 
 But here is no promise of divine infallibility made unto them. 
 And for that promise which is made, and expressly of infalli- 
 bility, ^St. John xvi. (though not cited by A. C), that is con- 
 fined to the apostles only, for the settling of them in all truth. 
 And yet not simply all; for "there are some truths," saith 
 •"St. Augustine, " which no man's soul can comprehend in this 
 life:"" not simply all; but ^all those truths quw non poterant 
 portare, which they were not able to bear when he conversed 
 with them : not simply all; but all that was necessary for 
 the founding, propagating, establishing and confirming the 
 Clu'istian church. But if any man take the boldness to en- 
 large this promise in the fulness of it beyond the persons of 
 the apostles themselves, that will fall out which ^St. Augustine 
 hath in a manner prophesied ; every heretic will shelter him- 
 self and his vanities under this colour of infallible verity. 
 
 XXX. — I told you a "little before that A. C. his pen wasA. C. p. 52. 
 troubled, and failed him ; therefore I will help to make out 
 his inference for him, that his cause may have all the strength 
 it can. And (as I conceive) this is that he would have ; 
 The tradition of the present church is as able to work in us 
 divine and infallible faith that the scripture is the word of 
 God, as that the Bible (or books of scripture) now printed 
 and in use is a true copy of that which was first wi'itten by 
 
 o John xiv. 16. s Spiritns Sanctiis, &c. qui eos doce- 
 
 P Iste consolator non auferetur a vo- ret omnem veritatem, quam tunc, cum 
 
 bis, sicut subtrahitur humanitas mea per iis loquebatur, portare non poterant. 
 
 mortem, sed wternaliter erit vohiscum, S. Job. xvi. 12, 13. et 8. August, in 
 
 liic per gratiam, in futuro per gloriam. S. Job. Tract. 97. princ. 
 
 I^yra in S. Job. xiv. 16. You see there t Omnes vel insipientissimi bseretici, 
 
 the Holy Ghost shall be present by con- qui se Christianos vocari volunt, auda- 
 
 solation and grace, not by infallible cias fignientorum suorum, quas maxima 
 
 assistance. exhorret sensus luimanus, hac occasione 
 
 q John xvi. 13. evangelical sententi* colorare coaentur, 
 
 •■ Onmem veritatem : non arbitror &c. S. August, in S. Job. Tract. 97. 
 
 in hac vita in cujiisquam niente com- circa med. 
 
 pleri, &.C. S. August, in S. Job. Tract. u Num. XXVI. 
 
 96. versus fin. 
 
80 Archbishop Laud against 
 
 Sect. 1 6. the penmen of the Holy Ghost, and deUvered to the church. 
 It is most true the tradition of the present church is ahke 
 operative and powerful in and over both these works, but 
 neither divine nor infallible in either. But as it is the first 
 moral inducement to persuade that scripture is the word of 
 God^ so is it also the first, but moral still, that the Bible 
 we now have is a true copy of that which was first written. 
 But then as in the former, so in this latter for the true copy, 
 the last resolution of our faith cannot possibly rest upon the 
 naked tradition of the present church, but must by and with 
 it go higher to other helps and assurances. Where I hope 
 A. C. will confess we have greater helps to discover the truth 
 or falsehood of a copy, than we have means to look into a 
 tradition. Or especially to sift out this truth, that it was 
 a divine and infallible revelation by which the originals of 
 scripture were first written ; that being far more the subject 
 of this inquiry than the copy, which, according to art and 
 science, may be examined by former preceding copies close 
 up to the very apostles' times. 
 A. C. p. Si. XXXI. — But A. C. hath not done yet ; for in the last place 
 y\ he tells us, " That tradition and scripture, without any vicious 
 ' circle, do mutually confirm the authority either of other." 
 And truly, for my part, I shall easily grant him this, so he will 
 grant me this other ; namely, that though they do mutually, 
 ' yet they do not equally confirm the authority either of other. 
 I For scripture doth infallibly confirm the authority of church 
 I traditions truly so called; but tradition doth but morally 
 f and probably confirm the authority of the scripture. And 
 this is manifest by A. C.'s own similitude : " for," saith he, " it 
 is as a king's ambassador's word of mouth and his king's 
 letters bear mutual witness to each other." Just so, indeed. 
 For his king's letters of credence under hand and seal con- 
 firm the ambassador's authority infallibly to all that know 
 seal and hand : but the ambassador's word of mouth confirms 
 his king's letters but only probably. For else, why are they 
 called letters of credence, if they give not him more credit 
 than he can give them? But that which follows I cannot 
 approve, to wit, " That the lawfully sent preachers of the 
 gospel are God's legates, and the scriptures God's letters, 
 which he hath appointed his legates to deliver and expound." 
 
^ Fisher the Jesuit. 81 
 
 So far it is well, but here is the sting: " That these tetters Sect. \(i. 
 
 <lo warrant, that the people may hear and give credit to 
 
 these legates of Christ, as to Christ the King himself." Soft, 
 
 this is too high a great deal. No ^ legate was ever of so great 
 
 credit as the king himself. Nor was any priest, never so 
 
 lawfully sent, ever of that authority as Christ himself; no 
 
 sure, for ye call me Master and Lord : ami ye say iceU ; for 
 
 so I am^, saith our Saviour, St. John xiii. And certainly 
 
 this did not suddenly drop out of A. C.'s pen. For he told us A. C. p. 5: 
 
 once before, " That this company of men wliich deliver the 
 
 present church's tradition (that is, the lawfully sent preachers 
 
 of the church) are assisted by God's Spirit to have in them 
 
 divine and infallible authority, and to be worthy of divine 
 
 and infallible credit, sufficient to breed in us divine and 
 
 infallible faith." Why, but is it possible these men should 
 
 go thus far to defend an error, be it never so dear unto 
 
 them ? They as Christ ! Divine and infallible authority in 
 
 them I Sufficient to breed in us divine and infallible faith ! 
 
 I have often heard some wise men say, that the Jesuit in 
 
 the church of Rome and the precise party in the reformed 
 
 churches agree in many things, though they would seem most 
 
 to differ. And surely this is one ; for both of them differ 
 
 \ extremely about tradition : the one in magnifying it, and 
 
 I exalting it into divine authority ; the other vilifying and 
 
 I depressing it almost beneath human. And yet even in these 
 
 I different ways both agree in this consequent. That the 
 
 \ sermons and preachings by word of mouth of the lawfully 
 
 > sent pastors and doctors of the church are able to breed 
 
 ^ in us divine and infallible faith; nay, are the Xvery word of 
 
 J, God. So A. C. expressly. And no less than so have 
 
 I some accounted of their own factious words, to say no more, 
 
 \than as the ^word of God. I ever took sermons, and so do 
 
 fstill, to be most necessary expositions and applications of 
 
 V 'Will A. C. maintain that any legate church in all ages, in their tea/;hing by 
 
 a Latere is of as great credit as the pope word of mouth, than in writing," &c 
 
 himself? P- 53- 
 
 X John xiii. i.^. z For the freeing of factions and 
 y For this A. C. says expressly of silenced ministers is termed the " re- 
 tradition, p. 52. And then he adds, storing of God's word to its liberty," 
 " that the promise for this was no less, in the godly author of the Jate News 
 but rather more expressly, made to the from Ipswich, p. 5. 
 lawfully sent pastors and doctors of the 
 
 a 
 
82 Archbishop Laud against 
 
 Sect. 1 6. holy scripture, and a great ordinary means of saving know- 
 ledge. But I cannot think them or the preachers of them 
 divinely infallible. The ancient Fathers of the church 
 preached far beyond any of these of either faction ; and yet 
 no one of them durst think himself infallible, much less that 
 whatsoever he preached was the word of God. And it may 
 be observed too, that no men are more apt to say that all 
 the Fathers were but men and might err, than they that 
 think their own preachings are infallible. 
 
 XXXII. — The next thing, after this large interpretation 
 of A. 0., which I shall trouble you with, is, that this method 
 and manner of proving scripture to be the word of God, 
 which I here use, is the same which the ancient church ever 
 held, namely, tradition, ecclesiastical authority, first ; and 
 then all other arguments, but especially internal, from the 
 scripture itself. This way the church went in St. Augus- 
 tine''s time ^. He was no enemy to church tradition ; yet 
 when he would prove that the author of the scripture, and 
 so of the whole knowledge of divinity as it is supernatural, 
 is Dem in Christo, God in Christ, he takes this as the all- 
 sufficient way, and gives four proofs, all internal to the scrip- 
 ture : first, the miracles ; secondly, " That there is nothing 
 carnal in the doctrine C thirdly, " That there hath been 
 such performance of it ;" fourthly, " That by such a doc- 
 trine of humility the whole world almost hath been con- 
 verted." And whereas ad mimiendam fidem^ for the defending 
 of the faith and keeping it entire, there are two things 
 requisite, scripture and church tradition, '^Vincentius Liri- 
 nensis places authority of scriptures first, and then tradition. 
 And since it is apparent that tradition is first in order of 
 time, it must necessarily follow that scripture is first in order 
 of nature, that is, the chief upon which faith rests and re- 
 solves itself. And your own school confesses this was the 
 
 a And St. Augustine himself, contra Religione ; in which book though these 
 
 Faust. Hb. xiii. c. 5, proves by an in- four arguments are not found in terms 
 
 ternal argmnent the fuIfiUing of the together, yet they till up the scope of 
 
 prophets. Scriptura (saith he) quie fidem the whole book. 
 
 suani rebus ipsis probat qua» j)er tern- l) Diiplici modo muin'ri fideni, &c. 
 
 pnrinn successiones hitc impleri, &c. Pi'imo divinpe legis authoritate, turn 
 
 And Henr. a (^and., ])ar. i. Sum. A. 9. deinde ecclesiae catholicfe traditione. 
 
 q. 3, cites St. Augustine's book de Vera Cont. Haer. c. i. 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 83 
 
 way ever. The woman of '^Samaria is a known resemblance, Sect. i6. 
 but allowed by yourselves ; " for ^ quotidie^ daily with them 
 that are without, Christ enters by the woman, that is, the 
 church, and they believe by that fame which she gives,"" &c. 
 But when they come to hear Christ himself, they believe his 
 word before the words of the woman. For when they have 
 once found Christ, " '^they do more believe his words in 
 scripture than they do the church which testifies of him ; 
 because then lyropter illam., for the scripture they believe 
 the church ; and if the church should speak contrary to the 
 scripture, they would not believe it." Thus the school taught 
 then ; and thus the gloss commented then ; and when men 
 have tired themselves, hither they must come. The key 
 that lets men into the scriptures, even to this knowledge of 
 them, that they are the word of God, is the tradition of 
 the church ; but when they are in, f" they hear Christ 
 himself immediately speaking in scripture to the faithful ; 
 Sand his sheep do not only hear but know his voice." And 
 then here is no vicious circle indeed of proving the scripture 
 by the church, and then roundabout, the church by the j 
 scripture. Only distinguish the times and the conditions of j 
 men, and all is safe. For a beginner in the faith, or a weak- I 
 ling, or a doubter about it, begins at tradition, and proves j 
 scripture by the church ; but a man strong and grown up 
 in the faith, and understandingly conversant in the word 
 of God, proves the church by the scripture : and then upon 
 the matter we have a double divine testimony altogether 
 infallible, to confirm unto us that scripture is the word i 
 of God. The first is the tradition of the church of the | 
 apostles themselves, who delivered immediately to the world 
 the word of Christ : the other, the scripture itself, but after 
 it hath received this testimony. And into these we do and 
 
 c .John iv. fidem tribuamus scripturis canonicis, 
 
 d Henr. a Gand. Sum. par. i. A. lo. secundam, sub ista, definitionibus et 
 
 q. I. Sic quotidie apud illos qui foris consuetudinibus ecclesiae catliolicne, post 
 
 sunt, intrat Christus per mulierem, i. e. istas studiosis viris non sub pteiia per- 
 
 ecclesiam, et credunt per istam famam, fidi», sed proterviw, &c. Walden. Doct. 
 
 &c. Gloss, in S. Job. cap. 4. Fid. torn. i. lib. ii. Art. 2. c. 23. 
 
 e Ibid. Plus verbis Christi in scrip- num. 9. 
 
 tura credit, quam ecclesiae testificanti ; f In sacra scriptura ipse immediate 
 
 quia propter illam jam credit ecclesiae. loquitur fidelibus. Ibid. 
 
 Et si ipsa quidem contraria scripturae S .John x. 4. 
 
 diceiet, ipsi non crederet, &c. — Primam 
 
 C 2 
 
84 A rchhishop Laud against 
 
 Sect. i6. may safely resolve our faith. " ^As for the tradition of 
 afterages, in and about which miracles and divine power 
 were not so evident, we believe them (by Gandavo's full con- 
 fession) because they do not preach other things than those 
 former (the apostles) left in scriptis certissitnis, in most cer- 
 tain scripture. And it appears by men in the middle ages, 
 that these writings were vitiated in nothing, by the con- 
 cordant consent in them of all succeeders to our own time." 
 
 XXXIII. — And now by this time it will be no hard thing 
 to reconcile the Fathers, which seem to speak differently 
 in no few places, both one from another, and the same from 
 themselves, touching scripture and tradition ; and that as 
 well in this point, to prove scripture to be the word of God, 
 as for concordant exposition of scripture in all things else. 
 When therefore the Fathers say, " 'We have the scriptures 
 by tradition," or the like ; either they mean the tradition of 
 the apostles themselves delivering it, and there, when it is 
 known to be such, we may resolve our faith ; or if they speak 
 of the present church, then they mean, that the tradition of 
 it is that by which we first receive the scripture, as by an 
 according means to the prime tradition. But because it is 
 not simply divine, we cannot resolve our faith into it, nor 
 settle our faith upon it, till it resolve itself into the prime 
 tradition of the apostles, or the scripture, or both ; and 
 there we rest with it. And you cannot shew an ordinary 
 consent of Fathers ; nay, can you or any of your quar- 
 ter shew any one Father of the church, Greek or Latin, that 
 ever said. We are to resolve our faith that scripture is 
 the word of God into the tradition of the present church? 
 And again, when the Fathers say we are to rely upon 
 scripture ''only, they are never to be understood with exclu- 
 sion of tradition, in what causes soever it may be had; " 'not 
 
 h Quod autem credimus posteriori- non inveniiintur in Uteris apostolorum, 
 
 bus, circa quos non apparent virtutes &c. nonnisi ab illis tradita et commen- 
 
 divinae, hoc est, quia non praedicant data creduntur. 8. August. 2. de Bap- 
 
 alia, quam quae illi in scrij)tis certissimis tisni. contra Donat. c. 7. 
 reliquerunt. Qu« constat per niedios k Non aliunde scientia coelestium. 
 
 in nnllo fuisse vitiata ex consensione S. Hilar, lib. iv. de Trinit — Si angelus 
 
 concord! in eis omnium suecedentium de ccelo annuuciaverit praeterquam quod 
 
 usque ad tempora nostra. Hen. a Gand. in scripturis, &c. S. August, lib. iii. 
 
 Sum. p i. A. 9. q. 3. cont. Petil. c. 6. 
 
 i Scripturas habemus ex traditione. 1 Quum sit perfectus scripturarum 
 
 S. Cyril. Hier. Catech. 4. — fliulta quae canon, sibique ad omnia satis superque 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 85 
 
 but that the scripture Is abundantly sufficient in and to itself Sect. i6. 
 for all things; but because it is deep, and may be drawn 
 into different senses, and so mistaken, if any man will pre- 
 sume upon his own strength, and go single without the 
 church."" 
 
 XXXIV. — To gather up whatsoever may seem scattered 
 in this long discourse to prove that scripture is the word 
 of God, I shall now in the last place put all together, that 
 so the whole state of the question may the better appear. 
 
 First, then, I shall desire the reader to consider that every Punct. i. 
 rational science retpiires some principles quite without its 
 own limits, which are not proved in that science, but pre- 
 supposed. Thus rhetoric presupposes grammar, and music 
 arithmetic. Therefore it is most reasonable that "^theology 
 should be allowed to have some principles also, which she 
 proves not, but presupposes. And the chiefest of these is. 
 That the scriptures are of divine authority. 
 
 Secondly, That there is a great deal of difference in the Punct. 2. 
 manner of confirming the principles of divinity, and those of 
 any other art or science whatsoever. For the principles of 
 all other sciences do finally resolve, either into the conclu- 
 sions of some higher science, or into those principles which 
 are per se nota, known by their own light, and are the grounds 
 and principles of all science. And this is it which properly 
 makes them sciences, because they proceed w ith such strength 
 of demonstration as forces reason to yield unto them. But 
 the principles of divinity resolve not into the grounds of 
 natui-al reason, (for then there will be no room for faith, but 
 all would be either knowledge or vision,) but into the maxims 
 of divine knowledge supernatural. And of this we have just 
 so much light and no more than God hath revealed unto 
 us in the scripture. 
 
 Thirdly. That though the evidence of these supernatural Punct. 3. 
 truths which divinity teaches appears not so manifest as 
 
 sufficiat, &.C. Yin. Lirin. contra Haeres. how all things in the world do _fi(fe 
 
 C. 2. And if it be sibi ad omula, then consislere. Therefore most unreason- 
 
 to this to prove itself, at least after al)le to deny that to divinity which all 
 
 tradition hath prepared ns to receive it. sciences, nay all things challenge ; 
 
 m Oinnis scientia priesup])onit fidem namely, some things to be presupposed 
 
 ali(piam. 8. Prosper, in Psal. cxxiii. and believed, 
 and St. Cyril, Hierosol. Catech. 5, shew* 
 
 «3 
 
86 Archbishop Laud against 
 
 Sect. 1 6. that of the natural, "yet they are in themselves much more 
 :.^ A [sure and infallible than they; for they proceed inmiediately 
 from God, that heavenly wisdom, which being the fountain 
 of ours must needs infinitely precede ours, both in nature 
 and excellence. He that teacheth man hiowledge^ shall not he 
 know? opsal. xciv. And therefore, though we reach not 
 the order of their deductions, nor can in this life come to 
 the vision of them, yet we yield as full and firm assent, not 
 only to the articles, but to all the things rightly deduced 
 from them, as we do to the most evident principles of natural 
 reason. This assent is called faith ; and faith being of 
 things not see7iv, Heb. xi., q would quite lose its honour, nay 
 itself, if it met with sufficient gi'ounds in natural reason 
 whereon to stay itself. For faith is a mixed act of the will 
 and the understanding, and the "^will inclines the understand- 
 ing to yield full approbation to that whereof it sees not full 
 proof: not but that there is most full proof of them, but 
 because the main gi'ounds which prove them are concealed 
 fi'om our view, and folded up in the unrevealed covmsel of 
 God ; God in Christ resolving to bring mankind to their last 
 happiness by faith and not by knowledge, that so the weakest 
 among men may have their way to blessedness open. And 
 certain it is that many weak men believe themselves into 
 heaven, and many over-knowing Christians lose their way 
 
 n yi vis credere niaiiifestis invisibili- Etc(uivolueriint,crediderunt. S.August. 
 
 bus, niagis quam visibilibus oportet ere- Serm. 60. de Verb. Doin. c. 5. — Fides 
 
 dere. Licet dictum sit admirabile,verum actus est, non solius intellectus, sed 
 
 est, &c. S. Chrysostom. Horn. 46. ad etiam voluntatis, qure cogi non potest. 
 
 Pop. And there he proves it. — Aliae Imo magis voluntatis quam intellectus, 
 
 scientiaj certitudiuem habeiit ex natu- quatenus ilia operationis principium est, 
 
 rali liuiiiiie rationis humauH>, qu;e de- et asseusum (qui proprie actus fidei est) 
 
 cipi potest : haic autem ex lumine sola elicit. Nee ab iutellectu voluntas, 
 
 divin;!" scientise, qua; decipi non potest, sed a voluntate intellectus iu actu h<!ei 
 
 Thom. p. I. q. r. A. 5. C. determinatur. Stapl. Triplic. cont. 
 
 o I'sal. xciv. 10. Our old English Wliitak. c. 6. p. 64 Credere euim 
 
 translation reads it, shall not he punish 7 est actus intellectus determiuati ad 
 
 that is, shall not he know when, and luuun ex inipei-io voluntatis. Thoni. 2. 
 
 why, and how to punish ? 2. q. ^.\. i. V. — Non potest dari ali(iuis 
 
 P Heb. xi. 1. assensus fidei, quicunque ille sit, qui 
 
 q Si sit ratio convincens, et propter non dependet in suis causis mediate vel 
 
 earn quis credat, alias non crediturus, inunediate ab actu voluntatis. Aim. in 
 
 toUitur meritum fidei. Biel. 3. D. 25. ,^. Sent. D. 24. Couclus. 6. Dub. 4. 
 
 q. unic. fine Non est dicendus ere- And St. Augustine says, Fidei locum esse 
 
 dere, cujus judicium subigitur, aut cor. Tract. 52. in S. Job. ; where the 
 
 cogitur, &c. Stapl. Triplicat. contra heart is put for the whole soul, which 
 
 ^^^hitak. cap. 6. p. 64. equally comprehends both the u'ill and 
 
 r Fides non fit in nobis nisi volenti- the understanding. And so doth Biel 
 
 bus. Tolet. in S. Joh. xvi. Anuot. ,1,^. also, iu Sent. D. 25. q. unic. Art. i. F. 
 
Fishei' the Jesuit. 87 
 
 thither, while they will believe no more than they can clearly Sect. i6. 
 know. In which pride and vanity of theirs they are left, 
 and have these things hid from them^. 
 
 Fourthly, That the credit of the scripture, the book in Punct. 4. 
 which the principles of faith are written, (as of other writings 
 also,) depends not upon the subservient inducing cause that 
 leads us to the first knowledge of the Author, which leader 
 here is the church, but upon the Author himself, and the 
 opinion we have of his sufficiency, which here is the Holy 
 Spirit of God, whose penmen the prophets and apostles 
 were. And therefore the mysteries of divinity contained 
 in this book — as the incarnation of our Saviour, the resur- 
 rection of the dead, and the like — cannot finally be resolved 
 into the sole testimony of the church, who is but a subser- 
 vient cause to lead to the knowledge of the Author, but into 
 the wisdom and sufficiency of the Author, who being omnipo- 
 tent and omniscient must needs be infallible. 
 
 Fifthly, That the assurance we have of the penmen of the Puuct. 5. 
 scriptures, the holy prophets and apostles, is as great as any 
 can be had of any human authors of like antiquity. For 
 it is morally as evident to any pagan, that St. Matthew and 
 St. Paul writ the Gospel and Epistles which bear their names, 
 as that Cicero or Seneca wrote theirs. But that the apostles 
 were divinely inspired whilst they writ them, and that they 
 are the very word of God expressed by them, this hath ever 
 been a matter of faith in the church, and was so even while 
 the apostles themselves *lived, and was never a matter of . 
 evidence and knowledge, at least as knowledge is opposed 
 to faith. Nor could it at any time then be more demon- 
 stratively proved than now. I say, not scientifice^ not de- ■ 
 monstratively. For were the apostles living, and should 
 they tell us that they spake and writ the very oracles of 
 God, yet this were but their own testimony of themselves, 
 
 s I\Iatt. xi. 25. immediate illuminabat, i-ausabat evi- 
 
 t The a])()Stles indeed they knew, for dentiam. .Jac. Almain. in 3. Sent. 
 
 they had clear revelation : they to whom Dist. 24. q. nnira. Couchis. 6 But for 
 
 they preached miglit beheve, hut they the residue of men it is no more hut 
 
 could not know witliout the like reve- as Thomas liath it, Oportet (|uod cre- 
 
 lation. So St. .Fohn xix. 35: He that datur authoritati eoruni, quil)ns reve- 
 
 saw knows that he says true., that yon latio facta est. Tiiom. p. i. q, i. A. 8. 
 
 which snw not inif/ht lielicrr. — Deus ad 8. 
 in prophetis (et sic in apostolis) quos 
 
 ci4 
 
88 
 
 Archhishop Laud against 
 
 Sect. 1 6. and so not alone able to enforce belief on others. And for 
 their miracles, though they were very great inducements of 
 belief, yet were neither they evident and convincing proofs" 
 alone and of themselves ; both because there may be coun- / 
 terfeit miracles, and because true ones are neither ^infallible/ 
 nor inseparable marks of truth in doctrine: not infallible^ 
 for they may be marks of false doctrine in the highest de^ 
 gree", Deut. xiii. ; not proper and inseparable, for Yall 
 which wrote by inspiration did not confirm their doctrine by 
 mii'acles : for we do not find that Da\^d or Solomon, with 
 some other of the prophets, did any, neither were any wrought 
 by St. John the Baptist, ^ St. John x. So as credible signs 
 they were and are still of as much force to us as it is possible 
 for things on the credit of relation to be ; for the witnesses 
 are many, and such as spent their lives in making good the 
 truth which they saw : but that the workers of them were 
 divinely and infallibly inspired in that which they preached 
 and writ, was still to the ^^hearers a matter of faith, and 
 
 <i Nou est eviileiis \e\ ista esse vera 
 miramla, \el ista fieri ad illani veri- 
 tatem ctmiprohaiidain. Jac. Almain. 
 in 3. Sent. D. 24. q. unica. Conclus. 6. 
 Tlierefore the miracles which Christ 
 and his apostles did were i'ully suffi- 
 cient to beget faith to assent, but not 
 evidence to convince. 
 
 V Cantos nos fecit sponsns, quia et 
 miracnlisdecipi non debemus. S. August. 
 in 8. Joh. torn. xiii. And he that says 
 we ought not to be deceived, acknow- 
 ledges that we may be deceived, even 
 liy miracles. And arguments which 
 can deceive are not sufficient to con- 
 vince ; though they Ite sometimes too 
 full of efficacy to pervert. And so plainly 
 Almain out of Ocham. Nunquam ac- 
 quiritur evidentia per medium quod de 
 se generat falsiim assensum, sicut ve- 
 rum. Jac Almain. in ,s. Sent. D. 24. 
 q. unic Condns. f). And therefore that 
 learned Roman catholic, who tells us 
 " the apostles' miracles made it evident 
 that their doctrine was true and divine," 
 went too far. Credible they made it, 
 but not evident. And therefore he is 
 after forced to confess, " that the soul 
 sometime.s assents not to the miracles 
 but in great timidity ;" which cannot 
 stand with clear evidence. And after 
 again, " That the soul may renounce 
 the doctrine formerly confirmed by 
 
 miracles, unless some inward and su- 
 pernatural light be given," c^c. And 
 neither can this possibly stand with 
 c\ideuce. And tlierefore Bellarmine 
 goes no further than this : 3Iiracula esse 
 sufficientia, et efficacia ad novam fidem 
 persuadend;mi, de Notis Eccles. lib. iv. 
 c. 14. §. r, to induce and persuade, 
 but not to con\ince. And Thomas will 
 not grant so much, for he says ex- 
 pressly : Miraculnm non est sufficiens 
 causa induceus fidem. Quia videntium 
 iinum et idem miraculum, qiiidam cre- 
 dunt, et qviidam non. Thorn. 2. 7.q. 6. 
 A. I.e. And Ambros. Catherin. in 
 Rom. X. 15. is downright at Nulla 
 fides est habenda signo. Examinanda 
 sunt, &.C. Anastasius Nizeuus Kpisco- 
 pus, apud Baron, ad an. 360. num. 21. — 
 Non sunt necessaria signa vera> fidei, 
 &c. Suarez. Defens. Fidei Cathol. lib. i. 
 cap. 7. num. 3. 
 
 X Dent. xiii. i, 2, 3. 2 Thess. ii. 9. 
 Mark xiii. 22. 
 
 y Operatio virtutmn alteri datur, 
 I Cor. xii. 10. (to one and another, he 
 saith, not to all,) — da'monia fugare, 
 mortuos suscitare, &c. dedit quibusdam 
 discipulis sm's, qtiibusdam non dedit ; 
 (that is, to do miracles.) S. August. 
 Serm. 22 de Verbis A post. c. 5. 
 
 z John X. 41. 
 
 a Here it may be observed, how 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 89 
 
 no more evident by the light of human reason to men that ^ect. i6. 
 lived in those days than to us now. For had that been 
 demonstrated, or been clear (as prime principles are) in its 
 own light, both they and we had apprehended all the mys- 
 teries of divinity by knowledge, not by faith. But this is 
 most apparent was not. For had the prophets or apostles 
 been ordered by God to make this demonstratively or intui- 
 tively, by discourse or vision, appear as clear to their auditors 
 as to themselves it did, that whatsoever they taught was 
 divine and inffillible truth, all men which had the true use 
 of reason must have been forced to yield to their doctrine ; 
 Isaiah could never have been at Domine quis? ^^Lord, who 
 hath believed our report ? Isaiah liii. ; nor Jeremy at Domine 
 f actus sum., ^Lord., I am in derision daily., Jer. xx. Nor could 
 any of St. Paul's auditors have mocked at him (as some of 
 them did), ^Acts xvii., for preaching the resurrection, if they 
 had had as full a view as St. Paul himself had in the assur- 
 ance which God gave of it in and by the resurrection of 
 Christ, verse 31. But the way of knowledge was not that 
 which God thought fittest for man's salvation. For man 
 having sinned by pride, God thought fittest to humble him 
 at the very root of the tree of knowledge, and make him 
 deny his understanding and submit to faith, or hazard his 
 happiness. The credible object all the while, that is, the 
 mysteries of religion and the scripture which contains them, 
 is divine and infallible, and so are the penmen of them by 
 revelation. But we and all our forefathers, the hearers and 
 readers of them, have neither ^ knowledge nor vision of the 
 
 warily A. C. carries himself : for when so might have held his peace : for the 
 
 he hath said, " That a clear revelation question is not, what clear evidence 
 
 was made to the apostles," which is the ajiostles had, but what evidence 
 
 most true ; and so the apostles knew they had which heard them, 
 
 that which they taught shnpliciier a b Isaiah liii. i. c Jer. xx. 7. 
 
 priori, most demonstratively from the d Acts xvii. 32. And had Zedekiah 
 
 prime Cause, God himself: then he and the people seen it as clearly as 
 
 adds, p.51. " I say, dare in attestanle:" Jeremy himself did, that the word he 
 
 that is, the revelation of this truth spake was God's word and infallihle, 
 
 was clear in the apostles that witnessed Jerusalem, for aught we know, had 
 
 it. But to make it knowledge in the not been laid desolate by the Chaldeans, 
 
 auditors, the same or hke revelation, But l)ecause they could not see this by 
 
 and as clear, must be made to them, the way of knowledge, and would not 
 
 For they could have no other knowing believe it by way of faith, they and 
 
 assurance ; credible they might, and that city perished together. Jer. xxxviii. 
 
 had. So A. C. is wary there, but 17. 
 
 comes not home to the business, and e Nemo pius, nisi qui scripturee credit. 
 
90 Archhishop Land against 
 
 Sect. i6. prime principles in or about them, but ^faith only. And the 
 revelation which was clear to them is not so to us, nor there- 
 fore the prime tradition itself delivered by them. 
 Punct. 6. Sixthly, That hence it may be gathered, that the assent 
 /which we yield to this main principle of divinity — that the 
 scripture is the word of Clod — is grounded upon no compelling 
 or demonstrative ratiocination, but relics upon the strength 
 of faith more than any other principle whatsoever, g For all 
 other necessary points of divinity may by undeniable discourse 
 be inferred out of scripture itself once admitted ; but this 
 concerning the authority of scripture not possibly ; but must 
 either be proved by revelation, which is not now to be ex- 
 pected, or presupposed and granted as manifest in itself, like 
 the princi})les of natural knowledge, which reason alone will 
 never grant ; or by tradition of the church, both prime and 
 present, with all other rational helps preceding or accomj)any- 
 ing the internal light in scripture itself ; which though it give 
 light enough for faith to believe, yet light enough it gives not 
 to be a convincing reason and proof for knowledge. And 
 /this is it which makes the very entrance into divinity inacces- 
 \ sible to those men who, standing high in the opinion of their 
 \ ovi'n wisd<Hn, will believe nothing but that which is irre- 
 I fragably proved from rational principles : for as Christ re- 
 1 quires a '' denial of a man''8 self, that he may be able to follow 
 \ him, so as great a pai*t as any of this denial of his whole self 
 I (for so it must be) is the denial of his understanding, and 
 I the composing of the unquiet search of this grand inquisitor 
 1 into the secrets of him that made it, and the overruling the 
 doubtfulness of it by the fervency of the • will. 
 
 f S. August, coiit. Faust, lib. xxvi. Licet euim admirahile sit tlietiun, veruni 
 c. 6. Now uo man believes the scrip- tamen, et a]jud luentem haheutes valde 
 ture that doth not believe that it is the certum, vel in confesso. Ex lloniil. i 3. 
 word of God. I sav, which doth not 8. Chrysost. in S. JMatt. torn. i. edit. 
 believe, I do not sa)', which doth not Frouto. Paris. 1636. 
 know. Oportet quod credatnr authori- S And this is the ground of tiiat 
 tati eortmi quibus revelatio facta est. which I said before, sect. 15. num. 1, 
 Tliom. p. I q. I. A. 8. ad secundum. — that the scripture only, and not any 
 "Oti 5e ^vxhv ^XOM-^''> &c. Quod vero unwritten tradition, was the foundatioi. 
 animain habenuis, unde manifestuni ? of our faitli, namely, when the author- 
 Si enim visibilibus credere velis, et de ity of scripture is first yielded unto. 
 Deo, et de angelis, et de mente, et de h Luke ix. 23. 
 
 aninia dubitatis : et sic tibi omnia veri- i Litellectus credentis determinatur 
 
 talis dogmata deperibnnt. Lt certe si per voluutatem, nou per rationeni. 
 
 manifestis credere velis, invisibilibus ma- Thorn. 2. 2. q. 2. A. i. ail tertium. 
 
 gis quam visibilibus credere oportet. And what jiower the will hath in case 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 
 
 91 
 
 Seventhly, That the knowledge of the Supreme Cause of Sect. 16. 
 all (which is God) is most remote, and the most difficult '""''■ "'' 
 thing reason can have to do with. The quod sit, that there j 
 is a God, J blear-eyed reason can see ; but the ^quid sit, what \ 
 that God is, is infinitely beyond all the fathoms of reason, j 
 He is a light indeed, 'but so as no mans reason can come at ': 
 for the brightness. If any thing therefore be attainable in 
 this kind, it must be by m revelation ; and that must be from , 
 himself: for none can reveal but "he that comprehends, and i 
 "none doth or can comprehend God but himself: and when 
 he doth reveal, yet he is no further discernible than P himself 
 pleases. Now since ^i reason teaches that the soul of man is 
 immortal, and ^ capable of felicity ; and since that felicity con- 
 
 of men's believing or not believing, is 
 manifest, Jer. xliv.; but this is spoken 
 of the will conipnred with the under- 
 standing only, leaving the operations of 
 grace free over both. 
 / j Commvmis enim sententia est pa- 
 trum et theologorum aliorum, demon- 
 strari posse naturali ratione Deum esse ; 
 sed a posteriori et per effectus. Sic 
 Thom. p. I. q. 2. A. :2. et Damasc. 
 Orth. Fid. hb. i. c. 3. et Ahnaiu. in 3. 
 , Sent. D. 24. q. i. But what may be 
 i demonstrated by natural reason, l>y na- 
 Itural light may the same he known. 
 [And so the apostle himself, Rom. i. 20. 
 j Invisibilia Dei a creatura mundi per ea 
 [quiB facta sunt, inteUecta conspicmntitr. 
 ! And so Calvin most clearly, Instit. lib. i. 
 I 0. 5. §. 1, Aperire oculos nequeunt, quin 
 ; aspicere eimi coguntur; though Bellar- 
 ( mine would needs be girding at him, 
 S De Grat. lib. iv. et Lib. Arbit. cap. 1, 
 I Videtur antem et ratio iis qua» apparent 
 \ attestari : omnes enim homines de diis 
 ; (ut ille loquitur) habentexistimationem. 
 'Jurist, de Cwlo, lil). i t. 22. 
 
 k Damasc. Ortli. Fid. lib. i. c. 4. 
 1 I Tim. vi. 16. — Et ne vestigium sic 
 accedendi reUnquit, nisi angeas imagi- 
 natione cogitatiouis hicem solis inuume- 
 rabiliter vel quid aliud, &c. S. August. 
 De Trin. HI), viii. c. 2. — Solus modus 
 accedendi preces sunt. Boeth. de Con- 
 solat. Philos. lib v. prosa 3. 
 
 m Praeter scientias philosophicas ne- 
 cesse est, ut ponatur alia scientia divi- 
 nitus revelata de iis qua honiinis cap- 
 turn excedunt. Thom. p. i. q. i. A. 1. 
 
 n And therefore Biel is express, that 
 God could not i-eveal any thing that is 
 to come, nisi illud esset a Deo prwsci- 
 tum seu praevisum, (i. e. unless God did 
 
 fully comprehend that which he doth 
 reveal.) Biel. in 3. Sent. D. 2^ q. 2. 
 A. I. 
 
 o Nullus intellectus creatus videndo 
 Deum potest cognoscere omnia qua; 
 Dens facit, vel potest facere : hoc enim 
 esset comprehendere ejus virtutem, &c. 
 Thom. p. I. q. 12. A. 8. C. 
 
 Ad argimientnm. Quod Dens ut 
 specuhim est, et Quod omnia qu« fieri 
 possunt in eo resplendent, respondet 
 Thom., Quod non est necessarinm, quod 
 videns speculum, omnia in speculo vi- 
 deat, nisi speculum visu suo compre- 
 hendat. Thom. p. i. q. 12. A. 8. ad 2. 
 (Now no man can comprehend this 
 glass, which is God himself) 
 
 P Dens enim est speculum volunta- 
 rium revelaus qu» et quot vnlt alicui 
 beato : non est speculum naturaliter 
 reprwsentans omnia. Biel. Suppl. in 4. 
 Sent. D. 49. q. 3. propos. 3. 
 
 <1 For if reason well put to its search 
 did not find this out, how came Ari- 
 stotle to affirm tliis by rational disqui- 
 sition, Ae/ireTat 8e rhv povv, &c. Re- 
 stat, ut mens sola extrinsecus accedat, 
 eaque sola divina sit; nihil enim cum 
 ejus actione communicat actio corpora- 
 Hs ? Arist. de Gen. Anim. hb. ii. c. 3. 
 This cannot be spoken of the soul, were 
 it mortal : and therefore I must needs 
 be of Paulus Benius his opinion, who 
 says plainly, and ))roves it too, Turjiiter 
 affixam a quibusdam Aristoteli mortali- 
 tatis animai opinionem. Benius iu Ti- 
 niceum Platonis, Decad. 2a?. HI), iii. 
 
 r For if reason did not dictate this also, 
 whence is it that Aristotle disputes of the 
 way and means of attaining it, Moral. 
 1. i. c. 9, and takes on him to prove that 
 felicity is rather an honourable than a 
 
9^ Archbishop Laud against 
 
 Sect. 1 6. sists in the contemplation of the highest Cause, which again 
 is God himself ; and since Christ therein confirms that dictate, 
 that man^s eternal happiness is Ho know God and him whom 
 he hath sent ; and since nothing can put us into the way of 
 attaining to that contemplation but some revelation of him- 
 self, and of the way to himself; I say, since all this is so, it 
 cannot reasonably be thought by any prudent man, that the 
 all-wise God should create man with a desire of felicity, and 
 then leave him utterly destitute of all instrumental helps to 
 make the attainment possible : since ^ God and nature do 
 nothing but for an end ; and help there can be none sufficient 
 but by revelation. And once grant me that revelation is 
 necessary, and then I will appeal to reason itself, and that 
 shall prove abundantly one of these two ;— that either there 
 was never any such revelation of this kind from the workFs 
 beginning to this day ; and that will put the friistra upon 
 God in point of man's felicity — or, that the scriptures which 
 we now embrace as the word of God is that revelation ; and 
 that is it wo Christians labour to make good against all 
 atheism, profaneness, and infidelity. 
 
 Punct. 8. Last of all ; To prove tliat the book of God which we 
 honour as his word is this necessary revelation of God and 
 his truth, which must and is alone able to lead us in the way 
 to our eternal blessedness, (or else the world hath none,) 
 comes in a cloud of witnesses ; some for the infidel, and some 
 for the believer, some for the weak in faith, and some for 
 the strong, and some for all : for then first comes in the 
 tradition of the church, the present church ; so it is no here- 
 tical or schismatical belief: then the testimony of former 
 ages ; so it is no new belief : then the consent of times ; so 
 it is no divided or partial belief: then the harmony of the 
 prophets, and them fulfilled; so it is not a "devised, but a 
 forespoken belief: then the success of the doctrine contained 
 
 commendable thing? c. 12. And after modum addiscentis a Deo doctore : Oni- 
 
 all tliis he adds, Deo beata tota vita est, nis qui audit a Pntre et didieit, Joh. 
 
 hominibns autem eateniis quateniis si- vi. 45. Thorn. 2. 2. q. 2. A..^.in C. 
 
 mihtiido qua^dam ejiismodi operationis t Dens et natura nihil f'nistra faciunt. 
 
 ipsis inest. Moral, lib. x. c. 8. Arist. de Co'lo, lib. i. t. ^2. — Frustra 
 
 s John xvii. 3. — Ultima beatitiido ho- autem est quod non potest habere suum 
 
 minis consistit in q\iadam siipernaturali iisum. Thoni. ibid, 
 
 visione Dei. Ad banc autem visionem « 2 Pet. i. 16. 
 homo pertingere non potest, nisi per 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 93 
 
 in this book ; so it is not a belief stifled in the cradle, but Sect. i6. 
 it hath spread through the world in despite of what the world 
 could do against it, and increased from weak and unlikely 
 beginnings to incredible greatness : then the constancy of 
 this truth ; so it is no moon-belief, for in the midst of the 
 world's changes it hath preserved its creed entii'e through 
 many generations : then, that there is nothing carnal in the 
 doctrine; so it is a chaste belief; and all along it hath 
 gained, kept, and exercised more power upon the minds of 
 men, both learned and unlearned, in the increase of virtue 
 and repression of vice, than any moral philosophy or legal 
 policy that ever was : then comes the inward light and excel- 
 lency of the text itself; and so it is no dark or dazzling 
 belief. And it is an excellent text : for see the riches of 
 natural knowledge which are stored up there, as well as 
 supernatural : consider how things quite above reason con- 
 sent with things reasonable : weigh it well, what majesty lies 
 there hid under humility ! what depth there is, with a per- 
 spicuity unimitable ! what ^ delight it works in the soul that 
 is devoutly exercised in it ! how the Tsublimest wits find in 
 it enough to amaze them, while the ^ simplest want not enough 
 to direct them ! and then we shall not wonder if (with the 
 assistance of a God's Spirit, who alone works faith and belief 
 of the scriptures and their divine authority, as well as other 
 articles) we grow up into a most infallible assurance, such 
 an assurance as hath made many lay down their lives for this 
 truth ; such as that, ^ though an angel from heaven should 
 preach unto us another gospel^ we would not believe him or it ; 
 no, though we should see as great and as many miracles done 
 over again to dissuade us from it as were at first to win the 
 world to it. To which firmness of assent, by the operation 
 
 X Quasi quidam fluvius est, planus, Eccl. Cath. c. 1 7. — Sed nihil sub spin- 
 et altus, in quo et agnus ambulet, et tuali seusu continetur fidei necessarium, 
 elephas natet. S. Greg. Praefat. in Lib. quod scriptura per literalem sensum 
 Moralium, c. 4. alicubi manifeste non tradat. Thorn. 
 
 y In lege Domini voluntas ejus. Psal. p. j . q. i. A. 10. ad i. 
 
 i. 2 — Dulcior super viel et favum. Psal. a Credimus, &c. sicut oh alia multa 
 
 xviii. II. et passim. certiora argumenta (quam est testimo- 
 
 z Multa dicuntur submissis et humi nium ecclesise) turn propter hoc potissi- 
 
 repentibus animis, ut accommodatius mum, quod Sjnritus Sanctus nobis intus 
 
 perhumana in divinaconsurgant. Multa has esse Dei voces persuadeat. Whitak. 
 
 etiam figurate, ut studiosa mens, et Disput. de Sacr. Script. Controv. 1. 
 
 quaesitis exerceatur utilius et uberius q. 3. c. 8. 
 
 laetetur inventis. S. August, de Mor. '^ Gal. i. 8. 
 
94 Archbishop Laud against 
 
 of GocFs Spirit, the will confers as much or more strength 
 than the understanding clearness ; the whole assent heing an 
 act of faith, and not of knowledge. And therefore the ques- 
 tion should not have been asked of me by dP', how I Jcnew, 
 but upon what motives 1 did believe scripture to be the word 
 of God ? And I would have liim take heed lest, hunting too 
 close after a way of knowledge, he lose the way of faith, and 
 teach other men to lose it too. 
 
 So then the w^ay lies thus (as far as it appears to me) ; 
 The credit of scripture to be divine resolves finally into that 
 faith which we have touching God himself, and in the same 
 order. For as that, so this hath three main grounds, to 
 which all other are reducible. The first is, the tradition of 
 the church ; and this leads us to a reverend persuasion of it. 
 The second is, the light of nature ; and this shews us how 
 necessary such a revealed learning is, and that no other way 
 it can be had ; ^ nay more, that all proofs brought against 
 any point of faith neither are nor can be demonstrations, but 
 soluble arguments. The third is, the light of the text itself, 
 in conversing wherewith Ave meet with the 'I Spirit of God 
 inwardly inclining our hearts, and sealing the full assurance 
 of the sufficiency of all three unto us. And then, and not 
 before, we are certain that the scripture is the word of God, 
 both by divine and by infallible proof: but our certainty is 
 by faith, and so voluntary, not by knowledge of such prin- 
 ciples as in the light of nature can enforce assent whether 
 we will or no. 
 
 I have said thus much upon this great occasion, because 
 this argument is so much pressed without due i-espect to 
 scripture. And I have proceeded in a synthetical way to 
 build up the truth for the benefit of the church and the satis- 
 faction of all men Christianly disposed : whereas, had I 
 desired only to rid my hand of these captious Jesuits, (for 
 certainly this question was captiously asked,) it had been 
 sufficient to have restored the question thus; How do you 
 know the testimony of the church (by which you say you 
 
 c Cum fides infallihili veritati innita- sed solubilia argunienta. Thom. p. i . 
 
 tur; et ideo cum impossilnle sit de vero q. I. A. 8. CI. 
 
 demonstrari contrarium ; sequiUir om- J Fidei ultima resolutio est in Deum 
 
 lies proliationes qufe contra fidem indu- illuniinantem. S. August, cont. Fund, 
 
 cuntur, non posse esse demonstrationes, c. 14. 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 95 
 
 know scripture to be the word of God) to be divine and Sect. 1 6, 1 7. 
 infallible 'i If they prove it by scripture (as all of them do, 
 and as A. C. doth), how do they know that scripture to beA. C. p. 53. 
 scripture? It is but a circular assurance of theirs, by which ^*'''"^:i"'^* 
 they found the church's inftdlibility upon the testimony of the 
 scripture, and the scripture's infallibility upon the testimony 
 of the church ; that is, upon the matter, the church's infalli- 
 bility upon the church's infallibility. But I labour for edifi- 
 cation, not for destruction. And now, by what I have here 
 said, I will weigh my answer, and his exception taken 
 against it. / 
 
 if. The bishop said that the books of scripture are prin- 
 ciples to be supposed, and needed not to be proved. 
 
 23. Why, but did I say that this principle — the books of Sect. 17. 
 scripture are the word of God — is to be supposed, as needing 
 no proof at all to a natural man, or to a man newly entering 
 upon the faith I yea, or perhaps to a doubter or weakling in 
 the faith? Can you think me so weak? It seems you do. 
 But sure I know there is a great deal of difference between 
 ethnics, that deny and deride the scripture, and men that 
 are born in the church : the first have a further way about 
 to this principle ; the other in their very Christian education 
 suck it in, and are taught, so soon as they are apt to learn 
 it, that the books commonly called " the Bible," or " scrip- 
 ture," are the word of God. And I dealt with you ^as with 
 a Christian, though in error, while you call catholic. The 
 words before spoken by me were, " That the scripture only, 
 not any unwritten tradition, was the foundation of faith." 
 The question between us and you is, Whether the scripture 
 do contain all necessary things of faith. Now in this ques- 
 tion, as in all nature and art, the subject, the scripture, is 
 and must be ^ supposed. The qucere between the Roman 
 catholics and the church of England being only of the predi- 
 cate, the thing uttered of it, namely, whether it contain all 
 fundamentals of faith, all necessaries for salvation within it. 
 
 e Dixi sicut ei congniebat ad quern principle among Christians : Quod a 
 
 scrihebam. S. August. Retract, lil). i. scriptura evidenter deducitur est evi- 
 
 c- 13. denter verinn, suppositis scripturis. Bel- 
 
 f Nor is it such a strange thing to hu-m. de Eccl. JMilit. lib. iv. c. 3. §. 3. 
 liear that scripture is such a su]>posed 
 
96 Archbishop Laud against 
 
 ect. 1 7, 1 s. Now since the question proposed in very form of art proves 
 not but g supposes the subject, I think I gave a satisfying 
 answer — that to you and me, and in this question, scripture 
 was a supposed principle and needed no proof. And I must 
 tell you, that in this question of the scripture\s perfect con- 
 tinent, it is against all art, yea, and equity too, in reasoning, 
 to call for a proof of that here which must go unavoidably 
 supposed in this question ; and if any man will be so familiar 
 with impiety to question it, it must be tried in a preceding 
 question and dispute by itself: yet here not you only, but 
 fi Tiellarmine and others, run quite out of the way to snatch 
 at advantage. 
 
 d'. Against this I read what I had formerly written in my 
 reply against Mr. John White ; wherein I plainly shewed 
 that this answer was not good, and that no other answer 
 could bo made, but by admitting some word of God 
 unwritten to assure us of tb.is point. 
 
 Sect. i8. '^' I- — Indeed, here you read out of a book (which you 
 called your own) a large discourse upon this argument. But 
 surely I so untied the knot of the argument, that I set you 
 to your book again ; for yourself confess that against this 
 you read what you had formerly written. Well, whatever 
 you read there, certain it is you do a great deal of wrong to 
 'Mr. Hooker and myself, that because we call it a supposed 
 or presumed principle among Christians, you should fall by 
 and by into such a '^metaphysical discourse, to prove that 
 that which is a ^ prwcognitum, foreknown in science, must be 
 of such light that it must be known of and by itself alone, 
 
 g De siibjecto enim quaeritur sempei-, Neque enim disputari potest, nisi prius 
 
 non sul)jectum i]isiini. in aliquo comniuiii principio cum ad- 
 
 li De Verb. Dei, lib. iv. c. 4. §. Quarto versariis convenianms. Convenit autem 
 
 necesse est. And the .Jesuit hei^e apud inter nos et omnes omnino ha^i-eticos, 
 
 A. C. p. 49. verbum Dei esse regiilam fidei, ex qua 
 
 i Eccles. Pol. b. iii. §. 8. de doginatibus judicandum sit, esse 
 
 k Whereas Bellarmine says expressly commune principium ab omnibus con- 
 that in the controversies between yo!i cessum, unde argumenta ducantur, &c. 
 and us, non agitur de metaphysicis Bellarni. Pra>fat. Operibus pra?fix. §. ult. 
 subtilitatibus, quie sine periculo igno- And it" it be " commune principiiuii ab 
 rari, et interdum cum laude oppugnari omnibus concessum," then I hope it 
 possunt, &c. Praefat. Operibus praefix. must be taken as a thing supposed, or 
 §. 3. as a prcBcognitum in this dispute be- 
 
 1 His omnibus qua»stionibus praemit- tween us. 
 tenda est controversia de rerbo Dei. 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 97 
 
 and that the scripture cannot be so known to be the word Sect. 18. 
 of God. 
 
 II. — I will not now enter again into that discourse, having 
 said enough already, how far the beam, which is very glorious 
 (especially in some parts of scripture), gives light to prove 
 itself. You see, neither Hooker, nor I, nor the church of 
 England (for aught I know), leave the scripture alone to 
 manifest itself by the light which it hath in itself : no ; but 
 when the present cliurch hath prepared and led the way, like 
 a preparing morning light, to sunshine, then indeed we settle 
 for our direction, yet not upon the first opening of the morn- 
 ing light, but upon the sun itself. Nor will I make needless 
 inquiry how far and in what manner a prcecoc/nitum, or sup- 
 posed principle in any science, may be proved in a higher, to 
 which that is subordinate, or accepted for a prime ; nor how 
 it may in divinity, where prce as well as 2^ostco(f)iita, things 
 fore as well as after-known, are matters, and under the man- 
 ner of faith, and not of science strictly ; nor whether a prce- 
 cognitunK a presupposed principle in faith, which rests upon 
 divine authority, must needs have as much and equal light to 
 natural reason, as prime principles have in nature, while they 
 rest upon reason; nor whether it may justly be denied to 
 have sufficient light, because not equal. Your own school 
 "^grants, " That in us, which arc the subjects both of faith 
 and knowledge, and in regard of the evidence given in unto 
 us, there is less light, less evidence in the principles of faith, 
 than in the principles of knowledge, upon which there can be 
 no doubt.'"' But I think the school will never grant that the 
 principles of faith (even this in question) have not sufficient 
 evidence. And you ought not to do as you did, without any 
 distinction or any limitation, deny a prcecognitum, or prime 
 principle in the faith, because it answers not in all things to 
 the prime principles in science in their liglit and evidence ; 
 a thing in itself directly against reason. 
 
 III. — Well, though I do none of this, yet first I must tell 
 you that A. C. here steps in again, and tells me, '• That 
 though a prcecognitum in faith need not be so clearly known 
 
 m Colligittir aperte ex Thom. ]). i. absolute. Bellarm. de Ecdes. Blil. lib. iv. 
 q. I. A. §. ad i. — Et artifiilonim iidei c. 3. §.3. 
 ^•pl■itas iioii pdtest nobis esse evideiis 
 
 H 
 
98 Archbishop Laud against 
 
 Sect. 1 8. as a> prwcognitum in science, yet there must be this proportion 
 between them, that whether it be in science or in faith, the 
 2)ra?copnitiim, or thing supposed as known, must be prius 
 cogmtum, first known, and not need another thing pertaining 
 to that faith or knowledge to be known before it. But the 
 scripture," saith he, "needs tradition to go before it, and 
 introduce the knowledge of it : therefore the scripture is not 
 to be supposed as a ^^''((^(^ognitian, and a thing foreknown." 
 Truly I am sorry to see in a man very learned such wilful 
 mistakes. For A. 0. cannot but perceive, by that which I 
 have clearly laid down "before, that I intended not to speak 
 precisely of a pra^cognitum. in this argument : but when I said 
 scriptures were principles to be supposed, I did not, I could 
 not intend they were prius cognita^, known before tradition, 
 since I confess everywhere that tradition introduces the 
 knowledge of them. But my meaning is plain — that the 
 scriptures are and must be principles supposed, before you 
 can dispute this question, » Whether the scriptures contain in 
 them all things necessary to salvation. Before which ques- 
 tion it must necessarily be supposed and granted on both 
 sides that the scriptures are the word of God ; for if they be 
 not, it is instantly out of all question that they cannot include 
 all necessaries to salvation. So it is a pra'cognitum, not to 
 tradition, (as A. C. would cunningly put upon the cause,) but 
 to the whole question of the scriptures' sufficiency. And yet 
 if he could tie me to a jnwcognitum in this very question, and 
 provable in a superior science, I think I shall go very near 
 to prove it in the next paragraph, and entreat A. C. to con- 
 fess it too. 
 
 IV. — And now having told A. C. this, I must secondly 
 follow him a little further : for I would fain make it appear, 
 as plainly as in such a difficulty it can be made, what wrong 
 he doth truth and himself in this case. And it is the com- 
 
 n Sect. T7 and 18. num. II. of faith, if it contain not all things ne- 
 
 o And my immediate words in the cessary to salvation ; w hich the church 
 
 conference, ui)on which the Jesuit asked of Home denying against all antiquity, 
 
 how I knew scripture to he scripture, makes it now become a question. And 
 
 were, (as the Jesuit himself relates it, in regard of this my answer was, " That 
 
 apnd A. C. p. 48,) "That tlie scripture tlie scriptures are and nuist le princi- 
 
 only, not any unwritten tradition, was pies supposed, and jnwcoynitce, before 
 
 the foundation of our faith." Now the the handling of this question." 
 scripture cannot he the only foundation 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 99 
 
 nion fault of them all: for when the protestants answer to Sect. i8. 
 this argument, (which, as I have shewed, can properly have 
 no place in the question between us about tradition,) rthoy 
 which grant this as a j^reecormitum, a thing foreknown, as also 
 I do, were neither ignorant nor forgetful, that things pre- 
 supposed, as already known in a science, are of two sorts ; 
 '•for either they are plain and fully manifest in their own 
 light, or they are proved and granted already, some former 
 knowledge having made theni evident." This principle then — 
 the scriptures are the oracles of God — we cannot say is clear 
 and fully manifest to all men simply and in self-light, for the 
 reasons before given : yet we say, after tradition hath been 
 our introduction, the soul that hath but ordinary grace added 
 to reason may discern light sufficient to resolve our faith that 
 the sun is there. This principle then, being not absolutely 
 and simply evident in itself, is presumed to be taught us 
 otherwise ; and if otherwise, then it must be taught in and 
 by some superior science to which theology is subordinate. 
 Now men may be apt to think, out of reverence, that divinity 
 can have no science above it ; but your own school teaches 
 me that it hath : " ^i The sacred doctrine of divinity in this 
 sort is a science, because it proceeds out of principles that 
 are known by the light of a superior knowledge, which is the 
 
 1> Hooker, Eccles. Pol. li. iii. 5. S. of their knowledge, therefore we iimst 
 
 q Hoc modo sacra doctrina est scieii- now only e;n unto their snccessors, and 
 
 tia; quia proc^dit ex ])rincipiis notis borrow light from the tradition of the 
 
 lumine superioris scientia', qu?e scilicet present church : for that we must do, 
 
 est scientia Dei et beatornm. Thoni. and it is so far well. But that we 
 
 p. I. q. I. A. 2 And what says A. C. must rely up:m this tradition as divine 
 
 now to this of Aquinas? Is it not clear and infallible, and able to brc-ed in ns 
 
 in him that this principle — the scri])- divine and infallible faith, as A. C. adds, 
 
 tures are the word of (Jod, of divine ]). 51, 52, is a ])r(!])osition which in the 
 
 and most infallible credit — is a pracof/- times of the primitive church wmM 
 
 nilum in the knowledge of divinity, have been accounted very dangerous, 
 
 and provable in a snperior science, as indeed it is. I'or I would fain know 
 
 namely, the kno^xledge of (lod and the why leaning too much upon tradition 
 
 blessed in heaven ? Yes, so clear that may not mislead Christians as well as 
 
 (as I told you he v.-onl!) A. C. confesses it did the Jews. But they, saith St. 
 
 it, p. 51: but he adds, " That because Hilary, traditionis favore legis pra^- 
 
 no man ordinarily sees this ]>roof, there- cepta transgress! sunt. Can. 14. in .S. 
 
 fore we must go either to Christ, who IMatt. Yet to this height are tb.ey of 
 
 saw it clearly,^ or to the apostles, to Rome now grown, that the traditions 
 
 whom it was clearly revealed, or to of the present church are infallible, and 
 
 them who by succession received it from by outfacing the truth lead many after 
 
 the prime seers." So now, because them; and as it is Jer. v. 31, The pro- 
 
 Christ is ascended, and the apostles phets prophesy untrnlhs, nnd the priests 
 
 gone into the number of the blessed, receive gifts; and wy pcojile deluihtthere- 
 
 and made in a higher degree partakers in: what will become of this in the emli 
 
 ir 2 
 
100 Archbishop Laud against 
 
 Sect. i8. knowledge of God and the blessed in heaven." In this supe- 
 rior science, this principle — the scriptures are the oracles of 
 God — is more than evident in full light. This superior science 
 delivered this principle in full revealed light to the prophets 
 and apostles : f this infallible light of this principle made their 
 authority derivatively divine. By the same divine authority 
 they wrote and delivered the scripture to the church : there- 
 fore from them immediately the church received the scrip- 
 ture, and that uncorrupt, though not in the same clearness 
 of light which they had. And yet since no sufficient reason 
 hath or can be given that in any substantial thing it hath 
 been ^ corrupted, it remains firm at this day, and that proved 
 in the most supreme science ; and therefore now to be sup- 
 posed (at least by all Christians), that the scripture is the 
 word of God. So my answer is good, even in strictness. That 
 this principle is to be supposed in this dispute. 
 
 V, — Besides, the Jews never had nor can have any other 
 
 proof that the Old Testament is the word of God than we 
 
 have of the New ; for theirs was delivered by Moses and the 
 
 prophets, and ours was delivered by the apostles, which were 
 
 prophets too. The Jews did believe their scripture by a 
 
 divine authority: for so the Jews argue themselves; ^We 
 
 Icmui that God spake ivith Moses; "and that " therefore they 
 
 could no more err in following Moses than they could in 
 
 following God himself." And our Saviour seems to infer as 
 
 much St. John v., where he expostulates with the Jews thus : 
 
 ^ If you believe not Moses Us writings, how shoidd you believe 
 
 me ? Now how did the Jews know that God spake to Moses ? 
 
 How ! Why apparently the same way that is before set down. 
 
 First, by tradition. So ySt. Chrysostom : " We know why: 
 
 By whose witness do you know I By the testimony of our 
 
 r Non creditiir Deus esse author hu- lingua, sed multis contiiietur scriptura. 
 
 jus scientiae, quia homines hoc testati Nonnulla; autem codicuni mendositates, 
 
 sunt in quantum homines nudo testimo- vel de antiquioribus, vel de lingua pra"- 
 
 nio humano ; sed in quantum circa eos cedente emendantnr. S. August, cont. 
 
 eifulsit virtus divina. Et ita Dens iis, Faust, lib. xxxii. c. i6. 
 
 et sibi ipsi in eis testimonium ])erhi- t John ix. 29. 
 
 buit. Hen. a Gaud. Sum. p. i. q. 3- u Itaque non magis errare posse eum 
 
 ^. Q. sequentes, quam si Deimi ipsum seque- 
 
 s Corrumpi non possunt, quia in ma- rentur. Maiden, in S. Joh. ix. 
 
 nilms sunt omnium Christianorum ; et x John v. 47. 
 
 (juisquis hoc primitus ausus esset, mnl- >' Horn. 57. in S. Joh. 9. V^'s oi5a- 
 
 torum codicum vetustiorum collatione ixtw tIvos ilirovros ; rwv iTpoy6vaiv (paaX 
 
 confutaretur. Maxime, quia non una rav 7)ixiripi»v. 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 101 
 
 ancestors." But ho speaks not of their immediate ancestors, Sect. 18,19. 
 but their prime, which were prophets, and whose testimony 
 was divine ; into which (namely, their writings) the Jews did 
 resolve their faith. And even that scripture of the Old 
 Testament was a ^ light, and a shining light too ; and there- 
 fore could not but be sufficient when tradition had gone 
 before. And yet though the Jews entered this way to their 
 belief of the scriptui-e, they do not say ^ Audivimus, We have 
 heard that God spake to Moses, but. We hiov^ it. So they 
 resolved their faith higher, and into a more inward principle, 
 than an ear to their immediate ancestors and their tradition. 
 And I would willingly learn of you, if you can shew it me, 
 whei'e ever any one Jew, disputing with another about their 
 law, did put the other to prove that the Old Testament was 
 the word of God. But they still supposed it ; and when 
 others put them to their proof, this way they went. And 
 yet you say, 
 
 ip. That no other answer could be made but by admitting 
 some word of God unwritten to assure us of this point. 
 
 13. I. — I think I have shewed that my answer is good, and Sect. ig. 
 that no other answer need be made. If there were need, I 
 make no question but another answer might be made to 
 assure us of this point, though we did not admit of any word 
 of God unwritten ; I say, to assure us, and you express no 
 more. If you had said, to assure us by divine faith, your 
 argument had been the stronger : but if you speak of assur- 
 ance only in the general, I must then tell you (and it is the 
 great advantage which the church of Christ hath against 
 infidels) a man may be assured, nay, infallibly assured, by 
 ecclesiastical and human proof. Men that never saw Rome 
 may be sure and infallibly believe that such a city there is, 
 by historical and acquired faith : and if consent of human 
 story can assure me this, why should not consent of church 
 story assure me the other — that Christ and his apostles deli- 
 vered this body of scripture as the oracles of God I For Jews, 
 enemies to Christ, they bear witness to the Old Testament ; 
 
 z 2 Pet. i. icj. (lizav, 'H/xe?! ■i]Kovffa/j.(i', iVc. aWa on 
 
 a S. Chrysost. ulii mijum : Kal ovk o'lSa/u-ff. 
 
 H3 
 
102 Ai'chhhhop Laud agaifist 
 
 Sect. 19. and Christians through ahnost all nations ''give in evidence 
 to both Old and New : and no pagan, or other enemies of 
 Christianity, can give such a worthy and consenting testi- 
 mony for any authority upon which they rely, or almost for 
 any principle which they have, as the scripture hath gained 
 to itself: and as is the testimony which it receives above all 
 "-writings of all nations, so here is assurance in a great mea- 
 sure, without any divine authority in a word written or un- 
 written. A great assurance, and it is infallible too ; only 
 , then we nuist distinguish infallibility. For, first, a thing may 
 j be presented as an infallible object of belief, when it is true, 
 ' and remains so ; for truth qua talis, as it is truth, cannot 
 deceive. Secondly, a thing is said to be infallible, when it is 
 not only true and remains so actually, but when it is of such 
 i invariable constancy, and upon such ground, as that no degree 
 H of falsehood at any time, in any respect, can fall upon it. 
 I ' Certain it is, that by human authority, consent, and proof, a 
 man may be assured infallibly that the scripture is the word 
 of God by an acquired habit of faith, cui noii suhest falsiom, 
 under which nor error nor falsehood is ; but he cannot be 
 assured infallibly by divine faith, ^cui suhesse non potest falsum, 
 \ into which no falsehood can come, but by a divine testimony : 
 this testimony is absolute in scripture itself, delivered by the 
 apostles for the word of God, and so sealed to our souls by 
 the operation of the Holy Ghost. That which makes way 
 for this, as an '^introduction and outward motive, is the tra- 
 dition of the present church ; but that neither simply divine, 
 nor sufficient alone, into which we may resolve our faith, but 
 only as is *^ before expressed. 
 
 II. — And now to come close to the particular. The time 
 was, before this miserable rent in the church of Christ, (which 
 I think no true Christian can look upon but with a bleeding 
 heart,) that you and we were all of one belief: that belief 
 
 1' Tanta hominnm et teniporiiin con- c Super omnes oniiiium gentium lite- 
 
 sensione lirniatum. !S. AutMist. lit), de r;is. S August, de Civ. Dei, lib. xi. c. i. 
 
 IVIor. Eccles. Catli. c. 29 li liliri qni>- d Incertum esse non potest hos esse 
 
 (pio niodo se lialtent, sancti tainen divi- lil))'<>s canonicos. Aralden. Doct. Fid. 
 
 narain rerum j)leni jirojie totius generis 1. ii. A. 2. c. 20. 
 
 h'lniani cllnf'es^ione diffamantni-, &c. c Facit ecdesiani causani sine qua 
 
 S. August, de Util. Cred. c. 7. et coat. non. C'anus, Loc. 1. ii. c. 8. 
 
 Faust, lib. xiii. c. i,. f Sect. 16. 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 103 
 
 was tainted, in tract and corruption of times, very deeply. Sect. 19. 
 A division was made, yet so that both parts held the Creed 
 and other common principles of belief. Of these this was 
 one of the greatest, sThat the scripture is the word of God; 
 for our belief of all things contained in it depends upon it. 
 Since this division there hath been nothing done by us to 
 discredit this principle : nay, we have given it all honour, and 
 ascribed unto it more sufficiency, even to the " containing of all 
 things necessary to salvation," with ^ satis siq^erque, enough and 
 more than enough ; which yourselves have not done, do not. 
 And for begetting and settling a belief of this principle, we 
 go the same way with you, and a better besides. The same 
 way with you, because we allow the tradition of the present 
 church to be the first inducing motive to embrace this prin- 
 ciple ; only we cannot go so far in this way as you, to make 
 the present tradition always an infallible word of God un- 
 written ; for this is to go so far in till you be out of the way. 
 For tradition is but a lane in the church ; it hath an end 
 not only to receive us in, but another after to let us out into 
 more open and richer ground. And we go a better way than 
 you, because after we are moved, and prepared, and induced 
 by tradition, we resolve our ftiith into that written word, and- 
 God delivering it ; in which we find materially, though not 
 in terms, the very tradition that led us thither. And so we 
 are sure by divine authority that we are in the way. because 
 at the end we find the way proved. And do what can be 
 done, you can never settle the faith of man about this great 
 principle till you rise to greater assurance than the present 
 church alone can give. And therefore once again to that 
 known place of St. Augustine: 'the words of the Father are 
 nisi commoveret, ''unless the authority of the church moved 
 me :" but not alone, but with other motives ; else it were not 
 commovere, to move together: and the other motives are 
 resolvers, though this be leader. Now since we go the same 
 way with you so far as you go right, and a better way than 
 you where you go wrong, we need not admit any other AAord 
 
 S Iijter omnes pene constat, ant ccrte S. Angiist. lib. de Mor. Eccles. t'ath.. 
 
 id quod satis est, inter nie et illos, cum c. 4. 
 
 quibus nunc agitur, convenit lioc, i^c. h Viii. Lirin. cont. Ila-rcs. c. 2, 
 
 Sic in alia causa cont. 3Ianiclia'os. i t^ontra J>])ist. Fund. c. 5. j 
 
 U 4 
 
104 Archhiskop Laud against 
 
 Sect. 19,20. of God than we do. And this ought to remain as a pre- 
 supposed principle among all Christians, and not so much 
 as come into this question about the sufficiency of scripture 
 between you and us. But you say that 
 
 jp. From tliis the lady called us, and desiring to hear 
 whether the bishop would grant the Roman church to 
 be the right church, the 13. granted that it was. 
 Sect. 20. B. I. — One occasion which moved Tertullian to write his 
 book de Prcescr'qit. adversus Hwreticos^ was, that he ^ saw little 
 or no profit come by disputations. Sure the ground was the 
 same then and now. It was not to deny that disputation 
 is an opening of the understanding, a sifting out of truth : it 
 was not to affirm that any such disquisition is in and of itself 
 unprofitable ; if it had, St. Stephen ' would not have disputed 
 with the Cyrenians, nor St. Paul "Uvith the Grecians first, 
 and then " with the Jews and all comers : no sure, it was 
 some abuse in the disputants that frustrated the good of the 
 disputation. And one abuse in the disputants is a resolution 
 to hold their own, though it be by unworthy means, and 
 "disparagement of truth. And so I find it here ; for as it 
 is true that this question was asked, so it is altogether false 
 that it was asked in this Pform, or so answered. There is 
 a gi-eat deal of difference (especially as Romanists handle the 
 (juestion of the church) between the church and a church ; 
 and there is some between a true church and a right church, 
 which is the word you use, but no man else that I know; 
 I am sure not I. 
 
 II. — For the church may import in our language the only 
 true church, and perhaps (as some of you seem to make it) 
 the root and the ground of the catholic ; and this I never 
 did grant of the Roman church, nor ever mean to do. But 
 a church can imply no more than that it is a member of the 
 whole ; and this I never did nor ever will deny, if it fall not 
 absolutely away from Christ. That it is a true church I 
 
 k Pamel. in Siiniinar. Lib. Videiis P Here A. C. ]i;ith nothinif to say, 
 
 disputationilnis nihil aut paiiiin profici. but that "the Jesuit did not attirni that 
 
 1 Acts vi. 9. the lady asked this ([uestion in this or 
 
 m Acts ix. 39. any other precise Ibrm." No ! why, tlie 
 
 " Acts xix. 17. words ])receding are the Jesuit's own; 
 
 o Debilitatur generosa indoles con- therefore if tliese were not the lady's 
 
 jecta in argutias. Sen. Ep. 48. words, he wrongs her, not 1 him. 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 105 
 
 granted also, but not a riciht (as you impose upon me) : for Sect. 20. 
 ens and verum, being and true, are convertible one with 
 another ; and every thing that hath a being is truly that 
 being which it is, in truth of substance. But this word right 
 is not so used, but is referred more properly to perfection in 
 conditions ; and in this sense every thing that hath a true 
 and real being is not by and by right in the conditions of 
 it. A man that is most dishonest and unworthy the name, 
 a very thief (if you will), is a true man in the verity of his 
 essence, as he is a creature endued with reason ; for this 
 none can steal from him, nor he from himself, but death ; but 
 is not therefore a right, or an upright man. And a church 
 that is exceeding corrupt, both in manners and doctrine, and 
 so a dishonour to the name, is yet a true church in the 
 verity of essence, as a church is a company of men which 
 profess the faith of Christ and are baptized into his name ; 
 but yet it is not therefore a right church, either in doctrine 
 or manners. It may be you meant cunningly to slip in this 
 word riffht, that I might, at unawares, grant it orthodox ; 
 but I was not so to be caught : for I know well that ortho- 
 dox Christians are keepers of integrity and followers of right 
 things, (so ""St. Augustine,) of which the church of Kome 
 at this day is neither. In this sense then no right, that is, 
 no orthodox church at Rome. 
 
 III. — And yet no news it is that I granted the Roman church 
 to be a true church ; for so much very learned protestants 
 rhave acknowledged before me, and the truth cannot deny 
 it. For that church which receives the scripture as a rule 
 of faith, though but as a partial and imperfect rule, and both 
 the sacraments as instrumental causes and seals of grace, 
 though they add more and misuse these, yet cannot but be 
 a true church in essence. How it is in manners and doc- 
 trine, I would you would look to it with a single eye : •' ^for 
 
 q Tntejjritatis custodes, et recta sec- grant it. Fr. Johnsdii, in his Treatise 
 
 taiites. De vera Relig. c. 5. called A Christian Plea, printed 1617, 
 
 r Hooker's Eccles. Pol. b. iii. §. i.— ]i. 123, &c. 
 
 Junius L. de Eccl. c. 17. Fallnntur « Si tamen liono ingenio jiietas et 
 
 (|ui ecclesiam negant, (juia juipatus in ])ax (jUK'dani mentis accedat, sine qua 
 
 ea est. — Reynold. Thes. 5. Negat tan- de Sanctis rehus nihil prorsns intelligi 
 
 turn esse catholicam, vel sanum ejus potest. S. August, de Util. Cred. c. 18. 
 
 inembrnm Nay, the very separatists 
 
106 Archbishop Laud against 
 
 Sect. 20. if piety and a peaceable mind be not joined to a good under- 
 standing, nothing can be known in these great things." 
 
 A. C. p. 53. IV. — Here A. C. tells us, " That the Jesuit doth not say 
 that the lady asked this question in this or any other precise 
 form of words ; but saith, the Jesuit is sure her desire was 
 to know of me whether I would grant the Roman church to 
 be the right church." And how was the Jesuit sure the 
 
 A. C. p. 5 4 lady desired to hear this from me? Why, A. C. tells us 
 that too ; for he adds, '' That the Jesuit had particularly 
 spoken with her before, and wished her to insist upon that 
 point." Wliere you may see, and it is fit the clergy of 
 England should consider with what cunning adversaries they 
 have to deal, who can find a way to ^ prepare their disciples, 
 and instruct them beforehand upon what points to insist, 
 that so they may with more ease slide that into their hearts 
 and consciences which should never come there. And this 
 once kno\\ii I hope they will the better provide against it. 
 
 A. C. p. 54. But A. 0. goes on and tells us, " That certainly, by my 
 answer, the lady's desire must needs be to hear from me, 
 not whether the church of Rome were a right church, &c., 
 but whether I would grant that there is but one holy catholic 
 church, and whether the Roman church (that is, not only 
 that which is in the city or diocess of Rome, but all that 
 agreed with it) be not it." About a church and the church 
 I have said enough "before, and shall not repeat. Nor is 
 there anv need I should. For A. C. would have it the 
 church, the one holy catholic church. But this cannot be 
 granted, take the Roman church in what sense they please, 
 in city or diocess, or all that agree with it. Yet howsoever, 
 before I leave this, I must acquaint the reader with a perfect 
 Jesuitism. In all the primitive times of the church, a man, 
 or a family, or a national church, were accounted right and 
 orthodox as they agreed with the catholic church ; but the 
 catholic was never then measured or judged by man, family, 
 or nation. But now in the Jesuits' new school, the one holy 
 
 t And after A. ('. saith ag^aiii, p 54, too, that wliatever we say (unless we 
 
 " That the lady did not ask the ques- jTj-ant what tliey would have) their pros- 
 
 tion as if slie meant to he satisfied elytes shall not lie satisfied with it 
 with hearing what I said." So helike " Sect. 20. niun. T. 
 they take caution beforehand for that 
 
Fisher tie Jesuit. 107 
 
 ^catholic church must be measured by that which is in the Sect. 20. 
 city or diocess of Rome, or of them which agreed with it, 
 and not Rome by the cathoHc. For so A. C. says expressly : 
 " The lady would know of me, not whether that were the 
 catholic church to which Rome agreed, but whether that 
 were not the holy catholic church which agreed with Rome."' 
 So upon the matter, belike the Christian faith was committed 
 to the custody of the Roman, not of the catholic church ; and 
 a man cannot agree with the catholic church of Christ (in 
 this new doctrine of A. C.) unless he agree with the church 
 of Rome : but if he agree with that, all is safe, and he is as 
 orthodox as he need be. 
 
 V. But A. C. is yet troubled about the form of the lady's 
 
 question. And he will not have it " that she desired to 
 know whether I would grant the Roman church to be the 
 right church ;" though these be her words according to the 
 Jesuit's own setting down ; but he thinks the question was, 
 " Whether the church of Rome was not the right church f' A. C. p. 54. 
 not " be not," but " was not." Was not, that is, " was not 
 once, or in time past, the right church, before Luther and 
 others made a breach from it." Why truly A. C. needed 
 not have troubled himself half so much about this. For let 
 him take his choice. It shall be all one to me, whether the 
 question were asked by he or by v:as ; for the church of 
 Rome neither is nor was the right church, as the lady de- 
 sired to hear. A particular church it is and was, and in 
 some times right, and in some times wTong ; and then in 
 some things right, and in some things wrong : but the right 
 church, or the holy catholic church, it never was, nor ever 
 can be ; and therefore was not such before Luther and 
 others either left it or were thrust from it. A particular 
 church it was : but then A. C. is not distinct enough here 
 
 X And though Stapleton, to magnify employed liis legates., Caldonius and 
 
 the chnrch of' Rome, is i>leased to say, I'ortiuiatus, not to bring the catholic 
 
 Apud vetei-es i)i-o eodeni haliita fu'it church to the connnunion of Rome, but 
 
 ecclesia Romana et ecclesia catholica ; Rome to the catholic churcli : Elal)ora- 
 
 yet he is so modest as to give this rea- rent, ut ad catbolicw ecclesia' nnitatem 
 
 son of it ; Quia ejus communio erat scissi corporis mendira componerent, &c. 
 
 evidenter et certissime cum tota catho- Now the members of this rent and torn 
 
 lica. Relect. Cont. i. q. 5. A. 3. (Lo, l)ody were they of Rome, then m an 
 
 the comnnmion of the Roman was then open schism between C'ornehus and 
 
 with the catholic church; not of the Novatiau. S. Cy])nan. hb. ii. epist. 10. 
 catholic with it!) And St. Cyprian 
 
108 Archbishop Laud against 
 
 Sect.' 20. neither ; for the church of Rome both was and was not a 
 right or orthodox church before Luther made a breach from 
 it. For the word ante, before, may look upon Rome and 
 that church a great way off, or long before ; and then in the 
 prime times of it it was a most right and orthodox church : 
 but it may look also nearer home, and upon the immediate 
 times before Luther, or some ages before that ; and then in 
 those times yRome was a corrupt and a tainted church, far 
 from being right ; and yet both these times were before 
 Luther made his breach. So here A. C. should have been 
 more distinct. For the word before includes the whole time 
 before Luther ; in part of which time that church of Rome 
 was right, and in other part whereof it was wrong. But 
 2 A. 0. adds yet, " That I suspected the lady would infer, if 
 once that church were right, what hindered it now to be, 
 since that did not depart from the protestant church, but 
 the protestant church from it V Truly, I neither suspected 
 the inference would be made, nor fear it when it is made ; for 
 it is no news that any particular church, Roman as well as 
 another, may once have been right and afterwards wrong, 
 and in far worse case : and so it was in Rome after the 
 ^ enemy had sowed tares among the wheat. But whether these 
 tares were sown while their bishops slept, or whether ^they 
 
 V Cum infiniti ;il)usus, schismata in that rluurh should speak thus, if he 
 
 (|uoque et liwreses per totum nunc did not see some errors in the doctrine 
 
 Cliristiauum orhem invalescant, ecde- of that church as well as in manners, 
 
 siam Dei legitima indigere reibrmatione Nay, Cassander, though he lived and 
 
 nemini non apertum erit. Pet. de died in the communion of the church 
 
 Aliaco Card. Canieracensis L. de Re- of Rome, yet foiuid fault with some of 
 
 form. Ecclesiie. And if scliisms and her doctrines. Consult. Artie. 21 et 
 
 heresies did then invade the whole 22. And Pope .Uilius III. professed 
 
 Christian world, let A. C. consider how at Bononia, In sacramentorum ecclesiaj 
 
 Rome escaped free. And I think Ca- ministerium innumerahiles abusus ir- 
 
 meracensis was in this prophetical ; for repsisse. Espencreus in Tit. i. And 
 
 sixty years and more before Luther yet he was one of the bishops, nay, the 
 
 was born, and so before the great trou- chief legate in the council of Trent, 
 bles which have since fallen upon all z A. C. p. 54. 
 Christendom, he used these words in a Mattli. xiii. 25. 
 
 the book which himself delivered up '> For j\.. C. knows well what strange 
 
 in the council of Constance: Nisi cele- doctrines are charged upon some popes: 
 
 riter fiat reformatio, audeo dicere quod and all Bellarmine's labour, though 
 
 licet magna sint, qua? videmus, tainen great and full of art, is not able to 
 
 in brevi incompaiahiliter majora vide- wash tliem clean. Bellarm. lib. iv. de 
 
 bimus. Et post ista tnnitrua tarn hor- Rom. Pont. c. S, &c. Et papas quos- 
 
 renda, majora alia audiemus,tS:c. Camer. dam graves errores seminasse in ecclesia 
 
 L.de Reform. Ecdes. And it will hardly Christi luce darius est. Et probatur a 
 
 sink into any man's judgment, that so Jacob. Alniain. Opiisc. de Author. Ec- 
 
 great a man as Petrus de Aliaco was clesiae, c. 10. And Cassander si)eaks 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 109 
 
 themselves did not help to sow them, is too large a disquisi- Sect. 20,21. 
 tion for this place. So though it were once right, yet the 
 tares which grow thick in it are the cause why it is not so 
 now. And then, though that church did not depart from 
 the protestants' church, yet if it gave great and just cause 
 for the protestant church to depart from the errors of it, 
 while it in some particulars departed from the truth of 
 Christ, it comes all to one for this particular, That the 
 Roman church, which was once right, is now become wrong, 
 by embracing superstition and error. 
 
 if. Further he confessed, " that protestants had made a 
 rent and division from it." 
 
 55. I. — I confess I could here be heartily ^angry, but that Sect. 21. 
 I have resolved in handling matters of religion to leave all 
 gall out of my ink ; for I never granted that the Roman 
 church either is or was the right church. It is too true 
 indeed that there is a miserable rent in the church, and 
 I make no question but the best men do most bemoan if^ ; 
 nor is he a Christian that would not have unity, might he 
 have it with truth. But I never said nor thought that the 
 protestants made this rent. The cause of the schism is 
 yours ; for you thrust us from you, because we called for 
 truth and redress of abuses. For a ^schism must needs be 
 theirs whose the cause of it is. The woe runs full out of 
 the mouth of ^ Christ ever against him that gives the offence, 
 not against him that takes it ever. But you have by this 
 
 it out more plainly : Utiiiam illi (he the Arians, and I shall not compare 
 
 speaks of the bishops and rectors in the you with them, nor give any offence 
 
 Roman church) a quibus ha>c inforiiia- that way. I shall only draw the gene- 
 
 tio accipienda - esset, non ipsi harum ral argument from it, thus: If the 
 
 superstitionum auctores essent : vel certe orthodox did well in departing from 
 
 eas in animis hominum simplicium ali- the Arians, then the schism was to be 
 
 quando questus causa nutrirent. Cas- imputed to the Arians, although the 
 
 sand. C'onsult. Art. 2 1 . versus flnem. orthodox did de])art from them. Other- 
 
 c Grave oninino crimen, sed defeii- wise, if the orthodo.x had been guilty 
 
 sionem longinquam non requirit, satis of the schism, he could not have said, 
 
 est enim negare ; sicut pro ecclesia olim. liecte scias nos fecisse recedendo. For 
 
 S. August, de Util. Cred. c. 5. it cannot be that a man shoiild do well 
 
 d Hanc qua; respectu hominum eccle- in making a schism. There may be 
 
 sia dicitur, observare, ejusque commu- therefore a necessary separation, which 
 
 nionem colere debemus. Calv. Inst. 4. yet incurs not the blame of schism ; 
 
 c. I. §. 7. and that is, when doctrines are taught 
 
 e Recte scias nos fecisse recedendo contrary to the catholic faith, 
 
 a vobis, &c. Lucif. lib. de non con- f ]\Iatth. xviii. 7. 
 veniendo cum Haereticis. He speaks of 
 
110 Archhkhop Laud against 
 
 Sect. 21. carriage given me just cause never to treat with you or your 
 like but before a judge or a jury. 
 
 A.c. p. 55, II. — But here A. C. tells me, *' I had no cause to be 
 
 ^ ■ fiiigi'y? either with the Jesuit or myself. Not with the Jesuit, 
 
 for he writ down my words in fresh memory, and upon 
 special notice taken of the passage ; and that I did say 
 either iisdem or a'quipoUentibus verlis, either in these or equiva- 
 lent words, that the protestants did make the rent or division 
 from the Roman church.'" ^Vhat ! did the Jesuit set down 
 ray words in fresh memory, and upon special notice taken? 
 and were they so few as these, " the protestants did make the 
 schism,"'"' and yet was his memory so short that he cannot 
 tell whether I uttered this iisdeiib or a^quipol/entibus verbis? 
 Well, I would A. C. and his fellows would leave this art of 
 theirs, and in conferences (which Stliey are so ready to call 
 for) impose no more upon other men than they utter. And 
 you may observe too, that after all this full assertion that 
 I spake this iisdein or a^quipollentibus verbis^ A. C. concludes 
 
 A. C. p. 55. thus: " The Jesuit took special notice in fresh memory, and 
 is sure he related, at least in sense, just as it was uttered." 
 What is this, '• at least in sense, just as it was uttered T 
 Do not these two interfere, and shew the Jesuit to be upon 
 his shuffling pace i For if it were just as it was uttered, 
 then it was in the ver}^ form of \Aords too, not in sense only ; 
 and if it were but at least in sense, then, when A. C. hath 
 made the most of it, it was not just as it was uttered. Be- 
 sides, " at least in sense"" doth not tell us in whose sense it was : 
 for if A. C. mean the Jesuit^s sense of it, he may make 
 what sense he pleases of his own words ; but he must impose 
 no sense of his upon my words : but as he must leave my 
 words to myself, so when my words are uttered or written, 
 he must leave their sense either to me, or to that genuine 
 construction which an ingenuous reader can make of them. 
 And what my words of grant were I have before expressed, 
 and their sense too. 
 
 A.C. p. 56. III. — Not with myself: that is the next. For A. C. says, 
 "• It is truth, and that the world knows it, that the protestants 
 did depart from the church of Rome, and got the name of 
 
 gA. C. p. 5;. 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. Ill 
 
 protestants by protesting against it." No, A. C, by your Sect. 21. 
 leave, this is not truth neither ; and therefore I had reason 
 to be angry with myself had I granted it. For, first, the 
 protestants did not depart : for departure is voluntary ; so 
 was not theirs. I say, not theirs, taking their whole body 
 and cause together ; for that some among them were peevish, 
 and some ignorantly zealous, is neither to be doubted, nor 
 is there danger in confessing it. Your body is not so perfect 
 (I wot well) but that many amongst you are as pettish and 
 as ignorantly zealous as any of ours. You must not suffer 
 for these, nor we for those, nor should the church of Christ 
 for either. Next, the protestants did not get that name by 
 protesting against the church of Rome, but by protesting 
 (and that when nothing else would serve) ^^ against her 
 errors and superstitions. Do you but remove them from the 
 church of Roine, and our protestation is ended, and the 
 separation too. Nor is protestation itself such an unheard of 
 thing in the very heart of religion ; for the sacraments, both 
 of the Old and New Testament, are called by your own 
 school, visible signs protesting the faith. Now if the sacra- 
 ments be protestantia, signs protesting, why may not men 
 also, and without all offence, be called protestants ; since, 
 by receiving the true sacraments and by refusing them which 
 are corrupted, they do but protest the sincerity of their faith 
 against that doctrinal corruption which hath invaded the 
 great sacrament of the Eucharist, and other parts of religion I 
 especially since they are men ' which must protest their faith 
 by these visible signs and sacraments. 
 
 IV. — But A. C. goes on, and will needs have it, that theA.C. p. 56. 
 protestants were the cause of the schism. " For," saith he, 
 " though the church of Rome did thrust them from her by 
 exconmiunication, yet they had first divided themselves by 
 obstinate holding and teaching opinions contrary to the 
 
 li Conventus fait onlinum imperii r.omen. Vide Calvis. Chro. ab an. 1529. 
 
 Spira;. \\n decretiim factum est, lit Tliis protestation therefore was not 
 
 edictum A\'ormatiense oliservaretur con- simply against the Roman church, liut 
 
 tra novatores (sic a])])ellare placuit) et against the edict, wliich was for the 
 
 ut omnia in integrum restituantur, (et restoring of all things to their former 
 
 sic nulla omnino reformatio.) Contra estate without any reformation, 
 hoc edictum solennis fuit protestatio, i Quibus homo fidem suam protesta- 
 
 Aprilis 16. an. Christi 1529. Et hinc retur. Thom. p. 3. q. 61. A. 3. 4. C. 
 ortum pervulgatum illud protestantium 
 
112 Archbishop Laud against 
 
 Sect. 21. Roman faith and practice of the chui'ch ; which to do St. 
 Bernard thinks is pride, and St. Augustine, niadness." So 
 then, in his opinion, first, excommunication on their part 
 was not the prime cause of this division, but the holding 
 and teaching of contrary opinions. Why, but then, in my 
 opinion, that holding and teaching was not the prime cause 
 neither; but the corruptions and superstitions of Rome, 
 which forced many men to hold and teach the contraiy. So 
 the prime cause was theirs still. Secondly, A. C.'s words 
 are very considerable ; for he charges the protestants to be 
 the authors of the schism for obstinate holding and teaching 
 contrary opinions. To what, I pray? Why, to the ^ Roman 
 faith. To the Roman faith ! it was wont to be the Chris- 
 tian faith to which contrary opinions were so dangerous to 
 the maintainors. But all is Roman now with A. C. and the 
 Jesuit. And then, to countenance the business, St. Bernard 
 and St. Augustine are brought in, whereas neither of them 
 speak of the Roman ; and St. Bernard, perhaps, neither of 
 the catholic nor the Roman, but of a particular church or 
 congregation ; or if he speak of the catholic, of the Roman 
 certainly he doth not. His words are, Quw major superhia, 
 &c. ; " What greater pride than that one man should prefer 
 his judgment before the whole congregation of all the Chris- 
 tian churches in the world?" So A. C. out of St. Bernard. 
 'But St. Bernard not so. For these last words, " of all the 
 Christian churches in the world,''"' are not in St. Bernard. 
 And whether toti coyigregationi imply more in that place than 
 a particular church, is not very manifest ; nay, I think it is 
 plain that he speaks both of and to that particular congre- 
 gation to which he was then preaching. And I believe A. 0. 
 will not easily find where tota cougregatio, the whole congre- 
 gation, is used in St. Bernard or any other of the Fathers 
 
 k 1 know Bellarmine quotes St. Je- mended it. I»iit the apostle\s coin- 
 
 rome : Scito Rotnanam fideni, &c. supra mending of it in the Romans at one 
 
 §. 3. num. IX. J)ut there St. Jerome time passes no deed of assurance that 
 
 doth not call it fidein Romunam, as if it shall continue worthy of commen- 
 
 fides liomanii and fides cathoUca were dations among the Romans through all 
 
 convertible ; hut he speaks of it in the times. 
 
 concrete : Romana fides, i. e. Roma- ' Quw major su])erbia, quam ut unus 
 
 norumfides, quas laudatafuit ah apostolo, homo toti congregationi judicium snum 
 
 &c., Rom. i. 8. S. Hierou. Apol. 3. pra'ferat, tanquam ipse solus S])iritum 
 
 cont. Ruiin., that is, that faith which l)ei habeat ? S. Bernard. Serm. 3. de 
 
 was then at Rome when St. Paul coin- Resur. 
 
Fisher the Jemit. 113 
 
 for the whole cathoHc church of Christ. And howsoever the Sect. 21. 
 moaning of St. Bernard be, it is one thing for a private man 
 judiciwm smim prce/erre, to prefer and so follow his private 
 judgment before the whole congregation, which is indeed 
 lej>ra proprii consili% (as St. Bernard there calls it,) the proud 
 leprosy of the private spirit ; and quite another thing for ^ 
 an intelligent man, and in some things unsatisfied, modestly 
 to propose his doubts even to the catholic church. And 
 much more may a whole national church, nay, the whole body 
 of the protestants do it. And for St. Augustine, the place 
 alleged out of him is a known place. And he speaks indeed 
 of the whole catholic church. And he "^says, (an<l he says 
 it truly,) " It is a part of most insolent madness for any man 
 to dispute whether that be to be done, which is usually done 
 in and through the whole catholic church of Christ.''' Where 
 first here is not a word of the Roman church, but of that 
 which is tota p)er orhem, all over the world, catholic, which 
 Rome never yet was. Secondly, A. C. applies this to theA.r. p. 56. 
 Roman faith, whereas St. Augustine speaks there expressly 
 of the rites and ceremonies of the church, and "particularly 
 about the manner of offering upon Maundy-Thursday, whether 
 it be in the morning, or after supper, or both. Thirdly, it is 
 manifest by the words themselves that St. Augustine speaks 
 of no matter of faith there, Roman nor catholic : for fre- 
 quentat and '^'^ faciendum are for things done and to be done, 
 not for things believed or to be believed. So here is not one 
 word for the Roman faith in either of these places ; and 
 after this I hope you will the less wonder at A. C.'s boldness. \ 
 Lastly, a right sober man may, without the least touch of % 
 insolency or madness, dispute a business of religion with tlie | 
 Roman either church or prelate, (as all men know I'lrenscus I 
 did with Victor,) so it be with modesty, and for the finding | 
 out or confirming of truth, free from vanity and purposed h 
 
 in Similiter etiam siijuid horum tota ° And so Bellarmine most expiesslv. 
 
 per orljeni freqncntat ecdesia ? Nam But then he adds, T'liiversum ecclesiam 
 
 ct hiiic rjuin ita fat-iendum sit disputare, iiou posse errare, iiou sohim in cie- 
 
 insolentissima? iiisania.- est. ri. August, dendo, sed nee in ojieraudo; et prwser- 
 
 Epist. 118. c. 5. tim in ritu, et cultu divino : lih. iv. de 
 
 n Quapris (piid per (luintam feriam Verb. Dei, c. 9. §. 4. And if this be 
 
 ultimas hebdoniadis (juadragesimae fieri true, what is it to Rome ? 
 
 debet, an offerendum sit mane? &c. P Euseb. Hist. Eccl. lib. v. c. 26. 
 
 S. August. Ibid. et Socrat. Hist. lib. v. c. 22. 
 
114 
 
 Archbishop Laud against 
 
 A. C. p. 56. 
 
 Sect. 2 1.; opposition against even a particular church. But in a^ - 
 (other way to dispute the whole cathoUc church, is just that 
 ' which St. Augustine calls it, insolent madness. 
 
 Y. — But now, were it so that the church of Rome were 
 orthodox in all things, yet the faith, by the Jesuit's leave, 
 is not simply to be called the Roman, but the Christian and 
 the catholic faith. And yet A. C. will not understand this, 
 but Roman and catholic, whether church or faith, must bo 
 one and the same with him ; and therefore infers, " That 
 there can be no just cause to make a schism or division from 
 the whole church : for the whole church cannot universally 
 err in doctrine of faith." That the whole cIuutIi cannot 
 universally err in the doctrine of faith is most true, and it is 
 granted by divers 'i protestants ; (so you will but understand 
 its not erring in absolute fundamental doctrines ;) and there- 
 fore it is true also that there can be no just cause to make 
 a schism from the whole church : but here is the Jesuit's 
 
 Q Quffistio est, An ecdesia totalis to- 
 taliter coiisulerata, i. e. pro omiiilms 
 simul electis, diim sunt membra niili- 
 tantis ecclesia^, possint errare, vel in 
 tota fide, vel in gravi ali(|no fidei 
 piincto ? Et respondimus simiiliciter, 
 id esse inipossibile. Keckerm. Syst. 
 Theol. J). 38 7. e<lit. Haniiovi:^, an. 
 1602. — C'alvimis et caHeri liaretici con- 
 cedunt ecclesiam absolute non posse 
 deficere ; sed dicunt iutelligi debere de 
 ecclesia invisibili. Bellarm. de Ecdes. 
 Milit. lib. iii. c. 13. §. i. But this ex- 
 ception of Bellarmine's, that the pro- 
 testants, whom out of his liberality he 
 calls heretics, s])eak of the iuvisilile 
 church, is merely frivolous. For the 
 chui'ch of the elect is in the church of 
 them that are called, and the invisible 
 church in the visible. Tlierefore if the 
 whole churcli of the elect cannot err 
 in fundamentals, the whole visible 
 church in which the same elect are 
 cannot err. Now that the invisilile 
 church of the elect is in the visilile, is 
 manifest out of St. Augustine ; Ipsa est 
 ecclesia, qua? intra sagenam dominicam 
 cum mahs piscil)us natat. S. August. 
 Epist. 48. — Grana sunt inter illam ]ia- 
 leam, (piando area cum videretur tota, 
 palea j)utabatur. S. August in Psal. 
 cxxi. And this is proved at hirge l)y 
 Hooker, Ecdes. Pol. b. iii. §. I. For 
 else the elect or invisible church is tied 
 
 to no duty of Christianity. For all 
 such duties are requireil of the church 
 as it is visilile, and performed in the 
 church as it is visiide. As we hold 
 it impossible that the churcli should 
 ever by apostasy and misbelief wholly 
 depart from (Jod, &c., so we hold that 
 it never falls into heresy. So that 
 Bellarmine is as much to i)e blamed for 
 idle and needless busying himself to 
 prove, that the visible church never 
 falls into heresy, ^^■hich we most wil- 
 lingly grant, (Field, de Eccles. lib. iv. 
 c. 2.) taking the church for all the 
 believers now living, and in tilings 
 necessary to be known expressly. Ibid. 
 C'alvinus dicit banc j)ropositionem — Ec- 
 clesia non potest errare — veram esse, si 
 intelligatur cum duplici restrictione. 
 Prima est, si non proponat dogmata 
 extra scripturam, &c. (And indeeil 
 Calvin dotii say so, Instit. lib. iv. c. 8 
 §. 13.) Secunda est, si intelligatur de 
 sola ecclesia luiiversali, non autem de 
 repni'sentativa. Bellarm. de Eccl. ]\Iilit. 
 lib. iii. c. 14. §. 2. And I hope it is as 
 good and a better restriction in Calvin, 
 to say the catholic church cannot err 
 if it keep to the scripture, than for 
 Bellarmine to say the particular church 
 of Rome cannot err because of the 
 pope's residing there, or the pope can- 
 not err if he keep his chair ; ^\'hich yet 
 he affirms, de Rom. Pont. lib. iv. c. 4. §. 2. 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 115 
 
 cunniiiir; the whole church with him is the Roman, and those Sect. 21. 
 parts of Christendom which subject themselves to the Roman 
 bishop ; all other parts of Christendom are in heresy and 
 schism, and what A. 0. pleases. Nay, soft; for another 
 church may separate from Rome, if Rome will separate from 
 Christ ; and so far as it separates from him and the faith, 
 so far may another church separate from it. And this is all 
 that the learned protestants do or can say. and I am sure all 
 that ever the church of England hath either said or done. 
 And that the whole church cannot err in doctrines absolutely 
 fundamental and necessary to all men's salvation (besides the 
 authority of these protestants, most of them being of prime 
 rank) seems to me to be clear by the promise of Christ, St. 
 Matth. xvi., ^ that the gates of hell shall not prevail against it; 
 whereas most certain it is that the gates of hell prevail very 
 far against it, if the whole militant church universally taken 
 can err from or in the foundation: but then this power of 
 not errinff is not to be conceived as if it were in the church 
 jyrimo et per se, originally, or by any power it hath of itself: 
 for the church is constituted of men, and humamim est errare, 
 all men can err. But this power is in it partly by the virtue 
 of this promise of Christ, and partly by the matter which it 
 teacheth, which is the unerring word of God, so plainly and 
 manifestly delivered to her, as that it is not possible she 
 should universally fall from it or teach against it in things 
 absolutely necessary to salvation. Besides, it would be well 
 weighed, whether to believe or teach otherwise will not im- 
 peach the article of the Creed concerning the holy catholic 
 church, which we profess we believe ; for the " holy catholic 
 church there spoken of contains not only the whole militant 
 church on earth, but the whole triumphant also in heaven ;" 
 for so ^St. Augustine hath long since taught me. Now if 
 the whole catholic church in this large extent be holy, then 
 certainly the whole militant church is holy as well as the 
 triumphant ; though in a far lower degree, inasmuch as all 
 tsanctification, all holiness, is imperfect in this life, as well in 
 
 r ]Matt. xvi. i8. in ccelis, &c. S. August. Endiir. c. 56. 
 
 s Eccle.sia hit- tota accipienda est, non t Nemo ex toto sanctus. Optut. lib. 
 
 solum ex parte qua peregrinatur in ter- vii. contra Parmeu. 
 ris, &c. varum etiaai ex ilia parte quae 
 
 I 2 
 
llf) ArcMmliof Laud agaimt 
 
 Sect. 21, churches as in men. Holy then the whole militant eluirch 
 is. For that which the apostle speaks of Abraham is true 
 of the church, which is a body collective, made up of the 
 spiritual seed of Abraham: "//* the root he holy, so are the 
 hranches. Well, then, the whole militant church is holy, and 
 so we believe. Why, but will it not follow then, that the 
 whole militant church cannot possibly err in the foundations 
 of the faith ? That she may err in superstructures and de- 
 ductions, and other by and unnecessary truths, if her curiosity 
 or other weakness carry her beyond or cause her to fall short 
 of her rule, no doubt need be made ; but if she can err 
 either from the foundation or in it, she can be no longer holy, 
 and that article of the Creed is gone. For if she can err 
 quite from the foundation, then she is nor holy nor church, 
 but becomes an infidel. Now this cannot be, for ''all divines, 
 ancient and modern, Romanists and reformers, agree in this, 
 " That the whole militant church of Christ cannot fall away 
 into general apostasy." And if she err in the foundation, 
 that is, in some one or more fundamental points of faith, then 
 she may be a church of Christ still, but not holy, but becomes 
 heretical : and most certain it is, that no y assembly (be it 
 never so general) of such heretics is or can be holy. Other 
 errors that are of a meaner allay take not holiness from the 
 church, but these that are dyed in grain cannot consist with 
 holiness ; of which faith in Christ is the very foundation. 
 And therefore, if we will keep up our Creed, the whole mili- 
 tant church must be still holy. For if it be not so still, 
 then there may be a time that falmm may suhesse fidei 
 catlioUcw, that falsehood, and that in a high degree, in the 
 very article, may be the subject of the catholic faith ; which 
 were no less than blasphemy to affirm : for we must still 
 believe the holy catholic church. And if she be not still 
 
 u Rom. xi. 1 6. §. 3- — Ipsa symlioli dispositione ad- 
 
 X Diiin (Jliristus orat in exrelso, na- monetiir ])eri)etuain residere in ecclesia 
 
 vicula (id est, ecclesia) tnrbatur flucti- Cliristi reniissiouem peccatorum. Calv. 
 
 bus in profiindo, &c. ; sed quia Christus Instit. lib. iv. c. i. §. 17. Now remission 
 
 orat, non potest mergi. S. August, of sins cannot be perpetual in the 
 
 Seran. 14. de Verb. Dom. c. 2. Et church, if the church itself be not per- 
 
 Bellfirm. de Ecrles. IMilit. lii). iii. c. 13. petual : but the church itself cannot 
 
 — I'rwsidio Christi fulcitur ecclesia; per- be perj)etual if it fall away, 
 petuitas, ut inter turbulentas agita- y Spiritus sanctificationis non potest 
 
 tiones, et formidabiles niotus, &c. salva inveniri in hwreticoruni nientibus, S. 
 
 tanien nianeat. Calvin. Inst. lib. ii. c. 1;. Hieron. in Jerem. x. 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 117 
 
 holy, then at that tune when she is not so we beheve a false- :«ect. 21. 
 hood under the article of the catholic ftiith. Therefore a very 
 dangerous thing it is to cry out in general tenns that the 
 whole catholic militant church can err, and not limit nor 
 distinguish in time that it can err indeed ; for ignorance it 
 hath, and ignorance can err; but err it cannot, either by 
 falling totally from the foundation, or by heretical error in it : 
 for the holiness of the church consists as much, if not more, 
 in the verity of the faith, as in the integrity of manners 
 taudit and commanded in the doctrine of faith. 
 
 VI. — Now in this discourse A.O. thinks he hath met with A. C. 1..56. 
 me ; for he tells me, " That I may not only safely grant that 
 protestants made the division that is now in the church, but 
 further also, and that with a safe confidence, as one did — 
 was it not you V saith he — " that it was ill done of those who 
 first made the separation." Truly I do not now remember 
 whether I said it or no; but because A. C. shall have full 
 satisfaction from me, and without any tergiversation, if I did 
 not say it then, I do say it now : and most true it is, that 
 it was ill done of those, whoever they were, that first made 
 the separation. But then A. C. must not understand me of 
 actual only, but of casual separation : for (as I said ^before) 
 the schism is theirs whose the cause of it is ; and he malces 
 the separation that gives the first just cause of it, not he that 
 makes an actual separation upon a just cause preceding. And 
 this is so evident a truth that A. C. cannot deny it, for he 
 says it is most true: neither can he deny it in this sense inA. C. p.56. 
 which I have expressed it ; for his very assertion against us 
 (though false) is in these terms, " that we gave the first 
 cause ;" therefore he must mean it of casual, not of actual 
 separation only. 
 
 VII. — But then A. C. goes on and tells us, "That after A. C. p. 57. 
 this breach was made, yet the church of Rome was so kind 
 and careful to seek the protestants, that she invited them 
 publicly with safe-conduct to Rome, to a general council, 
 freely to speak what they could for themselves." Indeed, 
 I think the church of Rome did carefully seek the protest- 
 ants, Init I doubt it was to bring them within their net : and 
 
 z Sect. 21. imui. 1. 
 
 ^3 
 
118 
 
 Archb'ishojJ Laud against 
 
 Sect. 21. 
 
 she invited them to Eome ; a very safe place, if you mark it, 
 for them to come to; just as the Hon (in the ^apologue) 
 invited the fox to his own den. Yea, but there was safe-con- 
 duct offered too. Yes, conduct perhaps, but not safe ; or safe 
 perhaps for going thither, but none for coming thence ; vesti- 
 qla nulla retrorsum. Yea, but it should have been to a 
 general council. Perhaps so. But was the conduct safe that 
 was tnven for coming to a council which they call general to 
 some others before them? No sure, bjohn Huss and Jerome 
 of Prague burnt for all their safe-conduct. And so long as 
 the c Jesuits write and maintain that "faith given is not to be 
 kept with heretics,'' and the church of Rome leaves this lewd 
 doctrine uncensured, (as it hath hitherto done, and no ex- 
 
 a Olim quod vulpes aegroto cauta leoni 
 Respoudit, referam, Quia me vesti- 
 gia terreat 
 Omnia te adversum spectantia, nulla 
 retrorsum. 
 
 llor. lib. i- ep. i. ex /Es(>{). 
 
 b Though I cannot justify all which 
 these two men said, yet safe-conduct 
 being given, that public faith ought not 
 to have been violated. 
 
 <-■ Artirmaut uno consensu omnes ca- 
 tholic!, debei-e hwreticis servari fidem, 
 sive salvus-conductus concedatur, jure 
 commnni sive sjjeciali. Bee. Dis. Theol. 
 de Fide Hivreticis servanda, c. 12. §.5. 
 But for all this brag of " Affirmant 
 uno consensu omnes catholici," Becanus 
 shuflles pitifully to defend the council 
 of Constance : for thus he argues ; Fides 
 lion est violata IIusso. Non a patrihus: 
 illi enim lidem non dederunt. Non ah 
 iin])eratoi-e Sigisinnndo : ille enim dedit 
 tidcm, sed non violavit. Ibid. §. 7. But 
 all men know that the emperor was 
 used by the Fathers at Constance to 
 bring IIuss thither : Sigismundus Hus- 
 sinn Constantium vocat, et missis literis 
 j)ublica fide cavet, mense Octob. auiu) 
 1414. cS;c. edit, in if:. — Et etiamsi ]>ri- 
 mo graviter tulit Hussi in carceratio- 
 neni, tamen cum dicereut " Fidem lue- 
 reticis non esse servaiidam," non modo 
 i-emisit offensionem, sed et primus acer- 
 be in enm proiiunciavit. Ibid. Tliis is 
 a mockery : and Becanus his argument 
 is easily turned upon himself. For if 
 the Fatiiers did it in cunning, that the 
 emjieror should give safe-conduct which 
 themselves meant not to keep, then they 
 broke faith : and if the emperor knew 
 
 they would not keep it, then he himself 
 broke faith, in giving a safe conduct 
 which he knew to be invalid. And as 
 easy is it to answer what Becanus adds 
 to save that council's act, could I stay 
 upon it. 
 
 Fides haii-eticis data servanda non 
 est, sicut nee tyrannis, piratis et ceteris 
 publicis pra^donilius, &.C. Sinianca, In- 
 stit. Tit. 46. § 51. And although Be- 
 canus in the place above cited, §. 13, 
 confidently denies that the Fathers at 
 Constance decreed " no faith to be kept 
 with heretics," and cites the words of 
 the council, Sess. 19, yet there the very 
 words themselves have it thus : Posse 
 concilium eos punire, &c. etiamsi de 
 salvo-conductu confisi ad locum vene- 
 rint judicii, &c. And much more plain- 
 ly Simanca, Instit. 46. §. 52; Jure igi- 
 tnr ha>retici quidam gravissimo concilii 
 Constautiensis judicio legitima fiainma 
 concremati sunt, quamvis promissa illis 
 securitas fuisset. So they are not only 
 protestants which charge the council of 
 Constance with this : nor can Becanus 
 say as he doth, Affirmant uno consensu 
 omnes catholici, fidem ha?reticis sfr\au- 
 dam esse: for Simanca denies it; and 
 he quotes others for it which A. C. 
 would he loath should not lie accounted 
 catholics. But h<jw faithfully Simanca 
 says the one, or Becanus the otbei-, let 
 them take it between them, and the 
 reader be judge. In the mean time 
 the very title of the canon of the coun- 
 cil of Constance, Sess. 19, is this : Quod 
 non obstantibus salvis-conductibus im- 
 jieratoris, regum, &c. jiossit jier juilicem 
 competentem de hieretica pravitate in- 
 (luiri. 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 119 
 
 ception put in of force and violence,) A. 0. shall pardon us Sect. 21. 
 that we come not to Rome, nor within the reach of Roman 
 power, what freedom of speech soever be promised us. For 
 to what end is freedom of speech on their part, ''since they 
 are resolved to alter nothing? and to what end freedom of 
 speech on our part, if after speech hath been free, life shall 
 not? 
 
 VIII.— And yet for all this A. C. "makes no doubt but A. C. p. 57. 
 that the Roman church is so far from being cause of the 
 continuance of the schism, or hinderance of the reunion, that 
 it would yet give a free hearing with most ample safe-con- 
 duct, if any hope might be given that the protestants would 
 sincerely seek nothing but truth and peace."" Truly A. 0. is 
 very resolute for the Roman church ; yet how far he may 
 undertake for it I cannot tell ; but for my part, I am of the 
 same opinion for the continuing of the schism tliat I was for 
 the making of it ; that is, that it is ill, very ill done of those, 
 whoever they be, papists or protestants, that give just cause 
 to continue a separation. But for free hearings or safe- 
 conducts I have said enough, till that church do not only sw/ 
 but do otherwise. And as for truth and peace, they are in 
 every man's mouth with you and with us ; but lay they but 
 half so close to the hearts of men as they are conmion on 
 their tongues, it would soon be better with Christendom than 
 at this day it is, or is like to be. And for the protestants in 
 general, I hope they seek both truth and peace sincerely : 
 the church of England I am sure doth, and hath taught me 
 to « pray for both, as I most heartily do ; but what Rome 
 doth in this, if the world will not see, I will not censure. 
 
 IX. — And for that which A.C. adds, "That such a free A C p.57. 
 hearing is more than ever the English catholics could obtain, 
 though they have often offered and desired it, and that but 
 under the prince's word; and that no answer hath, nor no 
 
 tl For so nnicli A. C. confesses, p 45. erat doctriiiam earn noii probare, scd 
 
 For if tliey should give way to the ([uam antea didicisseiit firmiter tenere, 
 
 aUerinj^ of one, then wliy not of an- 6ic. Hist. Concil. Trid. hi), ii. p. 277. 
 
 other, and anotlier, and so of ail ? And edit. Leyd. 1622. 
 
 the Trent Fathers in a great point of e J^cseeching God to inspire contiun- 
 
 doetrine being amazed, and not know- ally the universal church with the spirit 
 
 ing what to answer to a bishop of their of truth, unity, and concord, &c. in the 
 
 own, yet were resolved not to part with prayer for the militant church, and in 
 
 their couniiou error. C'ertum tamen the third collect on Good Friday. 
 
 I 4 
 
120 
 
 Archbishop Laud against 
 
 Sect. 2 1, 2 2. good answer can be given."''' And he cites Canipian for it. 
 How far or how often this hath been asked by the EngHsh 
 Romanists I cannot tell, nor what answer hath been given 
 them ; but surely Campian was too bold, and so is A. C. too, 
 to say ^honestum responsiim nullum^ no good answer can be 
 given ; for this, I think, is a very good answer — that the 
 kinas and the church of England had no reason to admit of 
 a public dispute with the English Romish clergy, till they 
 shall be able to shew it under the seal or powers of Rome, 
 that that church will submit to a third, who may be an indif- 
 ferent judge between us and them, or to such a general 
 council as is s after mentioned. And this is an honest, and 
 T think a full answer. And without this all disputation must 
 end in clamour : and therefore the more public the worse ; 
 because as the clamour is the greater, so perhaps will be the 
 schism too. 
 
 S, Moreover he said he would ingenuously acknowledge 
 that the corruption of manners in the Romish church 
 was not a sufficient cause to justify their departing 
 from it. 
 Sect. 22. U. I would I could say you did as ingenuously repeat as 
 I did confess ; for I never said that corruption of manners 
 was or was not a sufficient cause to justify their departure. 
 How could I say this, since I did not grant that they did 
 depart otherwise than is ^ before expressed ? There is differ- 
 ence between departure and causeless thrusting from you ; 
 for out of the church is not in your power (God be thanked) 
 to thrust us : think on that. And so much I said expressly 
 then. That which I did ingenuously confess was this, " That 
 corruption in manners only is no sufficient cause to make a 
 separation in the church f 'nor is it : it is a truth agreed on 
 by the Fathers, and received by divines of all sorts, save by 
 the Cathari, to whom the Donatist and the Anabaptist after 
 accorded, and against whom ^ Calvin disputes it strongly. 
 And 'St. Augustine is plain: "There are bad tish in the net 
 
 f Canipian. Praef. Ifatiouilms pra'ti.xa. k Instit. lil). iv. c. I. §. 13, <S:c. 
 
 K Sect. 26. num. 1. 1 Ep. 48. A malis piscilms corile seni- 
 
 li Sect. 21. num. VI. per et moribns se))arantur, <S,c. ; cor))i)- 
 
 ' Modo ea t\\w afl catlieilram perti- ralem .separationem in littore maris, lioc 
 
 iient, recta priccipiant. S. Ilier. Ep. 236. est, in iine saeculi expectant. 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 121 
 
 of the Lord, from which there must be ever a separation in Sect. 22,:!. 
 heart and in manners; but a corporal separation must be 
 expected at the seashore, that is, the end of the world.'' And 
 the best fish that are must not tear and break the net be- 
 cause the bad are with them. And this is as ingenuously 
 confessed for you as h/ me : for if corruption in manners were 
 a just cause of actual separation of one church from another 
 in tliat catholic body of Christ, the church of Rome hath 
 given as great cause as any; "since (as ^Stapleton grants) 
 there is scarce any sin that can be thought by man (heresy 
 only excepted) with which that see hath not been foully 
 stained, especially from eight hundred years after Christ." 
 And he need not except heresy, into which "Biel grants it 
 possible the bishops of that see may fall. And » Stella and 
 Almain grant it freely that some of them did fall, and so 
 ceased to be heads of the church, and left Christ (God be 
 thanked) at that time of his vicars' defection to look to his 
 cure himself. 
 
 £■. But, saith he, beside corruption of manners, there were 
 also errors in doctrine. 
 
 33. This I spake indeed. And can you prove that I spake Sect. 23. 
 not true in this i But I added, (though here again you are 
 pleased to omit it,) " That some of the errors of the Roman 
 church were dangerous to salvation." For it is not every 
 light error in disputable doctrine and points of curious specu- 
 lation that can be a just cause of separation in that admirable 
 body of Christ which is his P church, or of one member of it 
 from another : for he gave his natural body to be rent and 
 torn upon the cross, that his mystical body might be one. 
 And 4 St. Augustine infers upon it, " That he is no way par- 
 taker of divine charity that is an enemy to this unity." Now 
 what errors in doctrine may give just cause of separation in 
 this body, or the parts of it one from another, were it never 
 
 111 \'ix ullum peccatiim (sola hseresi decretales ha^reticse, &c. And so they 
 
 excepta) cogitari potest, quo ilia sedes erred as popes. 
 
 tiirjiiter inaculata iioii fiierit, niaxinie P Eph. i. 23. 
 
 al» aimo 800. Relect. Cont. i. q. 5. '1 S. August. Epist._so.— Et itenini 
 
 Art. ^. columbse uon sunt qui ecdesiain dissi- 
 
 n Hit'!, in Can. Miss. Lect. 23. pant. Accipitres sunt, milvi sunt: nou 
 
 o Stel. ill S. Luc. c. 22. Almain. in laniat columba, &c. S. August. Tract. 5. 
 
 3. Sent. D. 24. q. I. fine. Multae sunt in S. Joh. 
 
122 Ar Ml shop Laud agaimt 
 
 Sect. 23, 24. so easy to determine, (as I think it is most difficult,) I would 
 not venture to set it down in particular, lest in these times 
 of discord I might be thought to open a door for schism; 
 which surely I will never do, unless it be to let it out. But 
 that there are errors in doctrine, and some of them such as 
 most manifestly endanger salvation, in the church of Rome, 
 is evident to them that will not shut their eyes ; the proof 
 whereof runs through the particular points that are between 
 
 A. C. p. 55. us, and so is too long for this discourse. Now here A. C. 
 would fain have a reason given him " why I did endeavour to 
 shew what cause the protestants had to make that rent or 
 division, if I did not grant that they made itf Why truly 
 in this reasonable demand I will satisfy him. I did it partly 
 because I had granted it in the general, that corruption in 
 manners was no sufficient cause of separation of one parti- 
 cular church from another, and therefore it lay upon me at 
 least to name in general what was; and partly because he 
 and his party will needs have it so that we did make the 
 separation : and therefore, though I did not grant it, yet amiss 
 I thought it could not be to declare, by way of supposition, 
 that if the protestants did at first separate from the church 
 
 A.C.p. 56. of Rome, they had reason so to do; for A. C. himself con- 
 fesses, " That error in doctrine of the faith is a just cause of | 
 separation, so just as that no cause is just but that." Now j 
 had I leisure to descend into particulars, or will to make the \ 
 rent in the church wider, it is no hard matter to prove that 
 the church of Rome hath erred in the doctrine of faith, and 
 dangerously too : and I doubt I shall afterwards descend to 
 particulars, A. C. his importunity forcing me to it. 
 
 jp. AVhich when the general church would not reform, it 
 was lawful for particular churches to reform them- 
 selves. 
 Sect. 24. M. I. — Is it then such a strange thing that a particular 
 church may reform itself, if the general will not'^ I had 
 thought, and do so still, that in point of reformation of either 
 manners or doctrine, it is lawful for the church since Christ 
 to do as the church before Christ did and might do. The 
 church before Christ consisted of Jews and proselytes : this 
 church came to have a separation upon a most ungodly policy 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 123 
 
 of 'Jeroboam's, so that it never pieced together agaiu. To a Sect. 24, 
 common council, to reform all, they would not come. Was 
 it not lawful for Judah to reform herself when Israel would 
 not join 1 Sure it was, or else the prophet deceives me, that 
 says expressly, ^ Though Israel transgress, yet let not Judah sin. 
 And St. Jerome ^ expounds it of this very particular sin of 
 heresy and error in religion. Nor can you say that " Israel 
 from the time of the separation was not a church ; for there 
 were true prophets in it, ''Elias, and yElisseus, and others, 
 and ^thousands that had not lowed hiees to Baal: and there 
 was salvation for these, which cannot be in the ordinary way 
 where there is no church. And God threatens to ^cast them 
 away to wander among the nations, and be no congi-cgation, 
 no church : therefore he had not yet cast them away in non 
 ecclesiam, into no church. And they are expressly called 
 ^ the people of the Lord in Jehu's time, and so continued long 
 after. Nor can you plead that Judah is your part and the 
 ten tribes ours, (as some of you do ;) for if that bo true, you 
 must grant that the multitude and greater number is ours ; 
 and where then is multitude, your numerous note of the 
 church^ for the ten tribes were more than the two. But 
 you cannot plead it ; for certainly, if any calves be set up, 
 they are in Dan and in Bethel, they arc not ours. 
 
 II. — Besides, to reform what is amiss in doctrine or man- 
 ners is as lawful for a particular church as it is to publish 
 and promulgate any thing that is catholic in either; and 
 your question, quo judice ? lies alike against both. And yet 
 I think it may be proved that the church of Rome, and that; 
 as a particular church, did promulgate an orthodox truth" 
 which was not then catholicly admitted in the church, namely,! 
 the procession of the Holy Ghost from the Son. If she 
 erred in this fact, confess her error ; if she erred not, why 
 may not another particular church do as she did l A learned \ 
 
 y 3 l\ef^ xii. 27. s Hos. iv. 15. se])tem ilia millia fiiisse statiio, qui in 
 
 t SuiH r lirereticis prona iiitelligentia i)ersecvitioiie siili Aclialto Deum sil)i ah 
 
 est. S. ilieron. ibid. idololatria immunes resenaruiit, nee 
 
 II Non tamen cessavit Dens et popu- genua ante Baal flexernnt. Fran. JMoii- 
 
 liiin hiinc argnere per ])rophetas. Nam ceius, de A'^it. Aureo, lib. i. c. 12. 
 
 ilii extitcnint niagni illi et insignes pro- x 7, Reg. xvii. snt) Aclialio. 
 
 plietif l>Has et Elizfeiis, &c. S. August. y 4 Reg. iii. sub Jehoram filio Acliabi. 
 
 de Civ. Dei, lib. xvii. c. 22 — IMulti re- z 3 Reg. xix. 18. 
 
 ligiose intra se Dei cnltuni habebant, ^ IIos. ix. 17. 
 
 &c. De quo nuniero eoruinve posteris b 4 Reg. ix. 6. 
 
124 Archbishop Laud against 
 
 Sect. 24. schoolman of yours saith she may: "^Thc duirch of Rome 
 needed not to call the Grecians to agree upon this truth, 
 Wince the authority of publishing it was in the church of 
 IRome ; especially since it is lawful for every particular clmrch 
 to promulgate that which is catholic." Nor can you say he 
 ; means catholic as foredetermined by the church in general ; 
 / for so this point, when Rome added Filioque to the creed of a 
 / general council, was not. And how the Grecians were used 
 / in the after-council (such as it was) of Florence, is not to 
 j trouble this dispute ; but catholic stands there for that which 
 is so in the nature of it and fundamentally. Nor can you 
 justly say that the church of Rome did or might do this by 
 the pope's authority over the church : for suppose he have 
 that, and that his sentence be infallible, (I say, suppose both, 
 but I give neither,) yet neither his authority nor his infalli- 
 bility can belong unto him as the particular bishop of that 
 see, but as the ^ ministerial head of the whole church. And 
 you are all so lodged in this, that eBellarmine professes he 
 can neither tell the year when nor the pope under whom this 
 addition was made. A particular church then, if you judge 
 it by the school of Rome or the practice of Rome, may 
 publish any thing that is catholic where the whole church 
 is silent, and may therefore reform any thing that is not 
 catholic where the whole church is negligent or will not. 
 
 III. — But you are as jealous of the honour of Rome as 
 f Oapellus is, who is angry with Baronius about certain canons 
 in the second Milevitan council, and saith, " That he con- 
 sidered not of what consequence it was to grant to particular 
 churches the power of making canons of faith without con- 
 sulting the Roman see, which (as he saith, and you with him) 
 was never lawful, nor ever done." But suppose this were so, 
 
 c Noil oportuit ad hoc eos vocare, crej)! in, we must be bound to tell the 
 
 quuin authoritas fuerit publicandi apiid place and the time, and I know not 
 
 ecclesiam Romanam, ])ra;cipue cum uni- what, of their beginnings, or else they 
 
 cuique etiam particulari ecclesiai liceat, are not errors ; as if some errors might 
 
 id quod catholicuni est, promulgare. not \\-ant a record as well as some 
 
 Alb. Magn. in i. Dist. 11. A. 9. truth. 
 
 d Non errare, convenit pap;^, ut est f Omnino recte, nisi excepisset, &c. 
 
 caput. Bellarm. de Rom. Pont. lib. iv. Nee consideravit quanti referat conce- 
 
 c. 3. dere ecdesiis particularibus jus conden- 
 
 e De Christo, hb. ii. c. 21. 5. Quando dorum canoiium de fide, iiicousulta Ro- 
 
 autem So you cannot find records of mana sede, quod niuuiuam licuit, nun- 
 
 yoiir own truths, wliich are far more (juam factum est, &c. Capel. de Appel- 
 
 likely to be kept; but when errors are lat. Ecd. Africans, c. 2 num. 12. 
 
Fisher the Jesuit . 1 25 
 
 my speech was not not consulting, but in case of iieglecting or Sect. 2.\. 
 refusing, or when the difficulty of time and place, or other 
 circumstances, are such that a ggeneral council cannot be 
 called, or not convene. For that the Roman see must be ^ 
 consulted with before any reformation be made, first, most 
 certain it is Capellus can never prove, and secondly, as cer- \. 
 tain, that were it proved and practised we should have no I 
 reformation ; for it would be long enough before the church 1 
 should be cured if that see alone should be her physician, 
 which in truth is her disease. ' 
 
 IV. — Now if for all this you will say still that a provincial 
 council will not suffice, but we should have borne with things 
 till the time of a general council ; first, it is true, a general 
 council, free and entire, would have been the best remedy and 
 most able for a gangrene that had spread so far and eaten 
 so deep into Christianity. But what should we have suffered 
 this gangrene to endanger life and all rather than be cured 
 in time by a physician of a weaker knowledge and a less able 
 hand I Secondly, we live to see since, if we had stayed and 
 expected a general council, what manner of one we should 
 have had, if any : for that at Trent was neither general nor 
 free ; and for the errors which Rome had contracted, it con- 
 firmed them, it cured them not. And yet I much doubt 
 whether ever that council (such as it was) would have been 
 called, if some provincial and national synods under supreme 
 and regal power had not first set upon this great work of 
 reformation ; which I heartily wish had in all places been as 
 orderly and happily pursued as the work was right Christian 
 and good in itself; but human frailty, and the heats and 
 distempers of men, as well as the cunning of the devil, would 
 not suffer that. For even in this sense also, ^'^the icrath of 
 man doth not accomplish the will of God : but I have learned 
 not to reject the good which God hath wrought for any evil 
 which men may fasten to it. 
 
 V. — And yet if for all this you think it is better for us to 
 be blind than to open our own eyes, let me tell you, very 
 grave and learned men, and of your own party, have taught 
 
 e Rex confitetur se vocasse concilium denegabat, &c. Concil. Toletan. ter- 
 
 tertium Toletanum ; quia decursis retro tium, can. i. 
 
 temporibus ha?resis imminens in tota h James i. 20. 
 ecclesia catholica agere synodica iiegotia 
 
1 26 A rchbisho]) Laud against 
 
 Sect. 24. me, that when the universal church will not, or for the ini(]ui- 
 ties of the times cannot, obtain and settle a free general 
 council, it is lawful, nay, sometimes necessary, to reform 
 gross abuses by a national or a provincial : for besides Alb. 
 Magnus, whom I quoted ' before, Gcrson, the learned and 
 devout chancellor of Paris, tells us plainly, "^That he will 
 not deny but that the church may be reformed by parts ; 
 and that this is necessary ; and that to effect it provincial 
 councils may suffice, and in some things diocesan." And 
 again ; " 1 Either you should reform all estates of the church 
 in a general council, or command them to be reformed in 
 provincial councils." Now Gerson lived about two hundred 
 years since. But this right of provincial synods, that they 
 might decree in causes of faith, and in cases of reformation, 
 where corruptions had crept into the sacraments of Christ, 
 was practised much above a thousand years ago by many 
 both national and provincial synods. For the ^n council at 
 Rome under pope Sylvester, anno 324, condemned Photinus 
 and Sabellius ; (and their heresies were of high nature against 
 the faith.) The "council at Gangra about the same time 
 condemned Eustathius for his condemning of marriage as 
 unlawful. The o first council at Carthage, being a provincial, 
 condemned rebaptization, much about the year 348. The 
 P provincial council at Aquileia, in the year 381, in vvhich 
 St. Ambrose was present, condemned Palladius and Secun- 
 dinus for embracing the Arian heresy. The ^second council 
 of Carthage handled and decreed the belief and preaching of 
 the Trinity; and this a little after the year 424. The >■ coun- 
 cil of Milevis in Africa, in which St. Augustine was present, 
 condemned the whole course of the heresy of Pelagius, that 
 great and bewitching heresy, in the year 416. The « second 
 council at Orange, a provincial too, handled the great con- 
 
 i Sect. 24. num. II. clesiasticonim, par. i. pag. 209. B. 
 
 k Nolo tameu dicere, qiiiii in multis m Concil. Ko)n. 2. sub Sylvestro. 
 
 pai'tihus possit ecclesia per suas partes n Concil. (rang. can. i. 
 
 reformari. Lno hoc necesse esset, sed o Concil. Carth. i. can. 1. 
 ad hoc agendum sufficerent concilia )iro- P Concil. Aquiliens. 
 
 vincialia, &c. (Jerson. Tract, de (.ien. •'i Concil. Carth. 2. can. I. 
 
 Concil. unius obediential, par. i. pag. r Qua*dam de causis fidei, iinde nunc 
 
 222. F. quaistio Pelagianorum innuinet, in hoc 
 
 1 Oranes ecclesiae status aut in gene- caHu sanctissimopriniitustractentur,&c. 
 
 rali concilio reformetis, aut in conciliis Aurel. Cartliaginensis in Pra'fat. Con- 
 
 ])n)vincialibus reformari mandetis. Ger- cil. Milevit. apud Caranzam. 
 son. Declarat. Def'ectuum Virorum Ec- s Concil. Arausican. 2. can. i,2,&c. 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 127 
 
 troversies about grace and frcowill, and set the church right Sect. 24. 
 in them, in the year 444. The ^ third council at Toledo (a 
 national one), in the year 589, determined many things 
 against the Arian heresy, about the very prime articles of 
 faith, under fourteen several anathemas. The fourth council 
 at Toledo did not only handle matters of faith for the reform- 
 ation of that people, " but even added also some things to the 
 Creed which were not expressly delivered in former creeds. 
 Nay, the bishops did not only practise this to condemn here- 
 sies in national and provincial synods, and so reform those 
 several places and the church itself by parts, but they did 
 openly challenge this as their right and due, and that without 
 any leave asked of the see of Rome : for in this fourth 
 council of Toledo " they decree, " That if there happen a 
 cause of faith to be settled, a genei'al, that is, a national 
 synod of all Spain and Galicia shall be held thereon ;" and 
 this in the year 643 : where you see it was then catholic 
 doctrine in all Spain that a national synod might be a com- 
 petent judge in a cause of faith. And I would fain know 
 what article of the faith doth more concern all Christians in 
 general than that of Filioqm ? and yet the church of Rome 
 herself made that addition to the Creed without a g-eneral 
 council, as I have shewed y already. And if this were prac- 
 tised so often, and in so many places, why may not a national 
 council of the church of England do the like I — as she did : 
 for she cast off the pope's usurpation, and, as much as in 
 her lay, restored the king to his right. That appears by a 
 2 book subscribed by the bishops in Henry the Eighth's time, 
 and by the ^records in the archbishop's office, orderly kept, 
 and to be seen. In the reformation which came after, om- 
 ^princes had their parts, and the clergy theirs : and to these 
 
 t Coiicil. Tolet. 3. z The Institution of a Christian Man; 
 
 u Qiiji' omnia in aliis synil)olis expli- printed an. 1534. 
 
 cite tradita non sunt. C'oncil. Tolet. 4. a In Synodo liondinensi, Sess. 8. 
 
 •'ai'- !• Die Veneris, 29 Jaiuiarii an. 1562. 
 
 X Statniniiis, ut saltern semel in anno b And so in the reformation under 
 a nobis concilium celebretur, ita tamen, Hezekiah, 2 Chron. xxix., and under 
 ut si fidei causa est, aut (ina-libet alia Josiah, 4 Reg-, xxiii. And in the time 
 ecclesiae communis, generalis HispaniiB of Reccaredus king of yi)ain tlie re- 
 el Galicia; synodus celebretur, &c, formation there proceeded thus : Quum 
 Concil. Tolet. 4. can. 3. gloriosissimiis princeps omnes regimi- 
 
 y Sect. 24. nura, II. iiis sui poiititices in uiium conve- 
 
128 Archbishop Lm(,d against 
 
 two principally the power and direction for reformation be- 
 longs. That onr princes had their parts, is manifest by their 
 calling together of the bishops and others of the clergy, to 
 consider of that which might seem worthy reformation. And 
 the clergy did their part : for being thus called together by 
 regal power, they met in the national synod of sixty-two ; 
 and the articles there agreed on were afterwards confirmed 
 by acts of state and the royal assent. In this synod the 
 positive truths which are delivered are more than the pole- 
 mics ; so that a mere calunniy it is, that we profess only a 
 negative religion. True it is, and we must thank Rome for 
 it, our confession must needs contain some negatives : for we 
 cannot but deny that images are to be adored ; nor can we 
 admit maimed sacraments, nor grant prayers in an unknown 
 tongue. And in a corrupt time or place it is as necessary in 
 religion to deny falsehood as to assert and vindicate truth : 
 indeed, this latter can hardly be well and sufficiently done but 
 by the former ; an affirmative verity being ever included in 
 the negative to a falsehood. As for any error which might 
 fall into this, (as any other reformation,) if any such can be 
 found, then I say — and it is most true — reformation, espe- 
 cially in cases of religion, is so difficult a work, and subject 
 to so many pretensions, that it is almost impossible but the 
 reformers should step too far or fall too short in some smaller 
 things or other, which, in regard of the far greater benefit 
 coming by the reformation itself, may well be passed over and 
 borne withal. But if there have been any wilful and gross 
 errors, not so much in opinion as in fact, ('^sacrilege too often 
 pretending to reform superstition,) that is the crime of the 
 reformers, not of the reformation ; and they are long since 
 gone to God to answer it : to whom I leave them. 
 
 VI. — But now before I go off from this point I nuist put 
 you in remembrance too that I spake at that time (and so 
 must all that will speak of that exigent) of the general church 
 
 iiire mandasset, &^c. Concil. Tolet. 3. reges terra; Christo servientes ad eiiieu- 
 
 caii. I. — Cum convenissemus sacerdotes daudara vestram iiri])ietatem i)r()inulga- 
 
 Doinini apiid urbeni Toletanam, ut re- veruiit, res proprias vcstras cujiide ap- 
 
 giis imperiis atque jussis commoniti, A:c. petit, displicet nobis. Quisqiiis deiiique 
 
 Concil. Tolet. 4. iii priiic. apud Carau- ipsas res paupenim, vel Basilicas coii- 
 
 zani. — Ami both these synods did treat gregationum, &c. non per jiistitiani, sed 
 
 of matters of i'aith, per avaritiam tenet, displicet nobis. S. 
 
 c Quisquis occasions hujus legis,quam August. Epist. 4S. \eisus fiiiem. 
 
Fisher the ,Tesmf. 129 
 
 as it was for the most part forced under the government of Sect. 24,4= 
 the Roman see : and this you understand well enough ; for 
 in your very next words you call it the Roman church. Now 
 I make no doubt but that, as the universal catholic church 
 would have I'eformed herself, had she been in all parts freed 
 of the Roman yoke, so, while she was for the most in these 
 western parts under that yoke, the church of Rome was, if 
 not the only, yet the chief hinderance of reformation. And 
 then in this sense it is more than clear, that if the Roman 
 church will neither reform nor suffer reformation, it is lawful 
 for any other particular church to reform itself, so long as it 
 doth it peaceably and orderly, and keeps itself to the founda- 
 tion and free from '^ sacrilege. 
 
 Jp. I asked, Quo judke did this appear to be so i which 
 question I asked as not thinking it equity that protest- 
 ants in their own cause should be accusers, witnesses, 
 and judges of the Roman church. 
 3y. I.^ — You do well to tell the reason now why you asked Sect. 25. 
 this question ; for you did not discover it at the conference ; , 
 if you had, you might then have received your answer. It is 
 most true, no man in common equity ought to be suffered to 
 bo accuser, witness, and judge in his own cause ; but is there 
 not as little reason, and equity too, that any man that is to be 
 accused should be the accused, and yet witness and judge in 
 his own cause I If the first may hold, no man shall be inno- 
 cent ; and if the last, none will be nocent. And what do we 
 here with " in their own cause against the Roman church f 1 
 Why, is it not your own too against the protestant church I \ 
 And if it be a cause common to both, as certain it is, then ; 
 neither part alone may be judge : if neither alone may judge, ; 
 then either they must be judged by a ^third, which stands\; 
 indifferent to both, and that is the scripture, or, if there be 
 a jealousy or doubt of the sense of the scripture, they must ■ 
 either both repair to the exposition of the primitive church, 
 and submit to that, or both call and submit to a general j 
 
 d And this a particular church may gi-ievousuess of the crime, St Auirustine 
 
 do, hut not a schism ; for a schism can calls it sacrilegium schismatis, De B:i|it. 
 
 never be peaceable nor orderly, and sel- cont. Douat. lib. i. c. 8 ; for usually 
 
 dom free from sacrilege. Out of wliich they pjo together, 
 respects, (it may be,) as well as for the e Sect. 2i. num. [X. 
 
 K 
 
130 Archbishop Laud against 
 
 Sect. 25.1 council, which shall be lawfully called, and fairly and freely 
 held with indifferency to all parties, and that must judge the 
 difference according to scripture, which must be their rule as 
 well as private men's. 
 A.C. p. 58. II. — And here, after some loud cry against the pride and 
 insolent madness of the protestants, A. C. adds, " That the 
 church of Rome is the principal and mother-church ; and that 
 therefore, though it be against common equity that subjects 
 and children should be accusers, witnesses, judges, and execu- 
 tioners against their prince and mother in any case, yet it is 
 not absurd that in some cases the prince or mother may 
 accuse, witness, judge, and, if need be, execute justice against 
 unjust and rebellious subjects or evil children." How far 
 forth Rome is a prince over the whole church, or a mother of 
 it, will come to be shewed at after. In the mean time, 
 though I cannot grant her to be either, yet let us suppose 
 her to be both, that A. O.'s argument may have all the 
 strength it can have : nor shall it force me (as plausible as it 
 seems) to weaken the just power of princes over their sub- 
 jects, or of mothers over their children, to avoid the shock of 
 this argument : for though A. C. may tell us it is not absurd 
 in some cases, yet I would fain have him name any one mode- 
 rate prince that ever thought it just or took it upon him to 
 be accuser, and witness, and judge, in any cause of moment 
 against his subjects, but that the law had liberty to judge 
 between them. For the great philosopher tells us, " ' That 
 I the chief magistrate is custos juris, the guardian and keeper 
 I of the law ; and if of the law, then both of that equity and 
 / equality which is due unto them that are under him."' And 
 ' even Tiberius himself, in the cause of Silanus, when Dolabella 
 would have flattered him into more power than in wisdom he 
 thought fit then to take to himself, he put him off thus : No, 
 " sthe laws grow less where such power enlarges ; nor is 
 absolute power to be used where there may be an orderly 
 proceeding by law." And for ^ parents, it is true, when chil- 
 dren are young they may chastise them without other accuser 
 or witness than themselves, and yet the children are to give 
 
 f "EffTi 5e 6 apxoiv (pv\a(, rov SiKalov iiec iiteiulum imperio, uhi legibus agi 
 
 ft 5e Tov SiKalov, Koi tov Iffov. Arist. pnssit. Tacit. Ann. lil). iii. 
 - Eth. c. 6. '1 Heh. xii. 9. 
 
 s: 3IIinii inrn (ii'.ctips sflisrat potCNtas, 
 
Fuller the Jesuit. 131 
 
 them reverence : and it is presumed that natural affection Sect. 25. 
 will prevail so far with them that they will not punish them 
 too much ; for all experience tells us (almost to the loss of 
 education) they 'punish them too little, even when there is 
 cause : yet when children are grown up and come to some 
 full use of their own reason, the apostle's rule is, ^Colos. iii. 
 Parents^ provoke not your children ; and if the apostle prevail 
 not with froward parents, there is a magistrate and a law 
 to relieve even a son against kmnatural parents: as it was 
 in the case of T. Manlius against his over-imperious father. 
 And an express law there was among the Jews"^ when chil- 
 dren were grown up and fell into great extremities, that the 
 parents should then bring them to the magistrate, and not 
 be too busy in such cases with their own power. So suppose 
 Rome be a prince, yet her subjects must be tried by God's 
 law the scripture ; and suppose her a mother, yet there is 
 or ought to be remedy against her for her children that are 
 grown up, if she forget all good nature and turn stepdame to 
 them. 
 
 III. — Well ; the reason why the Jesuit asked the ques- 
 tion, Quo judice ? who should be judge ? he says, was this ; 
 because there is no equity in it that the protestants should 
 be judges in their own cause. But now upon more delibera- 
 tion A. C. tells us, (as if he knew the Jesuit's mind as well as a. C. p. 57. 
 himself, as sure I think he doth,) " That the Jesuit directed 
 this question chiefly against that speech of mine, that there 
 were errors in doctrine of faith, and that in the general 
 church, as the Jesuit understood my meaning." The Jesuit 
 here took my meaning right ; for I confess I said there 
 were errors in doctrine, and dangerous ones too, in the church 
 of Rome : I said likewise, that when the general church could 
 not or would not reform such, it was lawful for particular 
 churches to reform themselves. But then I added, " That 
 
 i God used Samuel as a messenger k Colos. iii. 21. 
 against Eli for his overmuch iudul- 1 Crimini ei tribunus inter cnetera 
 gence to his sons, 1 Sam. iii. 13 ; and dabat, quod filiuni ju\'enem nullius pro- 
 yet Samuel himself committed the very bri compertum, extorrem urhe, donio, 
 same fatilt concerning his own sons, peuatilius, foro, luce, congressu ■f(|ua- 
 I Sam. viii. 3, .v And this indulgence lium prohibitum, in opus servile, prope 
 occasioned the change of the civil go- in carcerem. atque in ergastulnm de- 
 vertunent, as the fonnei- \\as the loss derit. Li v. dec. J. 1. 7. 
 of the priesthood. m Dent. .x.\i. 19 
 
 K 2 
 
132 Archbishop Laud against 
 
 Sect. 25. the general church (not universally taken, but in these western 
 parts) fell into those errors, being swayed in these latter ages 
 by the predominant power of the church of Rome, under 
 whose government it was for the most part forced." And 
 all men of understanding know how oft and how easily an 
 overpotent member carries the whole with it in any body, 
 natural, politic, or ecclesiastical. 
 
 . c. p. 57. IV. — Yea, but A. C. tells us, " That never any competent 
 judge did so censure the church, and indeed that no power 
 on earth or in hell itself can so far prevail against the general 
 church as to make it err generally in any one point of divine 
 truth, and much less to teach any thing by its full authority 
 to be a matter of faith which is contrary to divine truth 
 expressed or involved in scriptures rightly understood ; and 
 that therefore no reformation of faith can be needful in the 
 general church, but only in particular churches." And for 
 proof of this he cites St. Matt. xvi. and xxviii., St. Luke xxii., 
 St. John xiv. and xvi. In this troublesome and (quarrelling 
 age I am most unwilling to meddle with the erring of the 
 church in general ; the church of England is content to pass 
 that over ; and though " she tells us that the church of Rome 
 hath erred even in matters of faith, yet of the erring of the 
 church in general she is modestly silent. But since A. 0. 
 will needs have it that the whole church did never generally 
 err in any one point of faith, he should do well to distinguish 
 before he be so peremptory: for if he mean no more than 
 that the whole universal church of Christ cannot universally 
 err in any one point of faith simply necessary to all men's 
 salvation, he fights against no adversary, that I know, but 
 his own fiction ; for the most o learned protestants grant it: 
 but if he mean that the whole church cannot err in any one 
 point of divine truth in general, which, though by sundry 
 consequences deduced from the principles, is yet made a point 
 of faith, and may prove dangerous to the salvation of some 
 which believe it and practise after it, (as his words seem to 
 import,) especially if in these the church shall pi-esume to 
 
 n Art. XIX. Spiritn Sancto doceri se per verbum 
 
 o Si damns errare non posse ectle- Dei patitiir. Calvin. Inst. lib. \v. c. 8. 
 
 siam in rebus ad salutem necessariis, §. 13. And this also is our sense. Vide 
 
 hie sensus noster est: Ideo hoc esse, sup. §.21. luim. V. 
 quia abdicata omni sua sapientia, a 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 133 
 
 determine without her proper guide, the scripture, as I'Bel-Sect. 15. 
 larniine says she may and yet not err ; then perhaps it may 
 be said, and without any wrong to the catholic church, that 
 the whole militant church hath erred in such a point of divine 
 truth and of faith : nay, A. 0. confesses expressly in his very A.C. p. 5S. 
 next words, " That tlie whole church may at some time not 
 know all divine truths, which afterwards it may learn by 
 study of scripture and otherwise." So then in A. C.'s judg- 
 ment the whole militant church may at some time not know 
 all divine truths. Now that which knows not all must be 
 ignorant of some, and that which is ignorant of some may 
 possibly err in one point or other : the rather, because he 
 confesses the knowledge of it must be got by learning ; and 
 learners may mistake and err, especially where the lesson is 
 divine truth out of scripture, out of difficult scripture : for 
 were it of plain and easy scripture that he speaks, the whole 
 church could not at any time be without the knowledge of it ; 
 and for aught I yet see, the whole church militant hath no 
 greater warrant against not erring in than against not know- 
 ing of the points of divine truth ; for in MSt. John xvi. 
 there is as large a promise to the church of knowing all 
 points of divine truth, as A. (J. or any Jesuit can produce 
 for her not erring in any ; and if she may be ignorant or 
 mistaken in learning of any point of divine truth, doubtless 
 in that state of ignorance she may both err and teach her 
 error, yea, and teach that to be divine truth which is not ; 
 nay, perhaps teach that as a matter of divine truth which is 
 contrary to divine truth, always provided it be not in any 
 point simply fundamental, of which the whole catholic church 
 cannot be ignorant, and in which it cannot err, as hath 
 before been proved. ■■ 
 
 V. — As for the places of scripture which A. C. cites tOA. C. p. 57. 
 prove that the whole church cannot err generally in any 
 one point of divine truth, be it fundamental or not, they 
 are known places all of them, and are alleged by A. C. A.C. p. 57. 
 three several times in this short tract and to three several 
 
 P Nostra sententia est, ecclesiam ab- sive ntiii. Bellanii. ilc Ecil. Milit. lib. 
 
 solute non posse errare, nee in rebus iii. c. 14. §. 5. 
 absolute necessariis, nee in aliis (|u;i' 'i .John xvi. 13. 
 
 credenda vel lacieuda nobis ])i'oponit, i' Sect. 21. num. V. 
 
 sive habuantur exjuusse in scripturis, 
 
 '^ 3 
 
134 Archbishop Laud against 
 
 Sect. 25. purposes ; here, to prove that the universal church cannot 
 A. C. p. 53 err; before this, to prove that the tradition of the present 
 church cannot err ; after this, to prove that the pope cannot 
 A. C. p. 58. err. He should have done well to have added these places a 
 and 73- fourth time to prove that general councils cannot err ; for so 
 doi& both sStapleton and tBellarmine. Sure A. C. and his 
 fellows are hard driven when they must fly to the same places 
 for such different purposes ; for a pope may err where a 
 council doth not, and a general council may err where the 
 catholic church cannot ; and therefore it is not likely that 
 these places should serve alike for all. The first place is 
 St. Matthew xvi. ; " there Christ told St. Peter, and we 
 believe it most assuredly, that hell-gates shall never he able to 
 prevail against Ms church ; but that is, that they shall not 
 prevail to make the church catholic apostatize and fall quite 
 away from Christ, or err in absolute fundamentals, which 
 amounts to as much. But the promise reaches not to this, 
 that the church shall never err, no, not in the lightest matters 
 of faith: for it will not follow, hell-gates shall not prevail 
 against the church, therefore hellish devils shall not tempt 
 or assault and batter it. And thus St. Augustine'' under- 
 stood the place : " It may light, (yea and be wounded too,) but 
 it cannot be wholly overcome." And Bellarmine himself ap- 
 plies it to prove xtliat the visible church of Christ cannot 
 deficere, err so as quite to fall away. Therefore in his judg- 
 ment this is a true and a safe sense of this text of scripture. 
 But as for not erring at all in any point of divine truth, and 
 so making the church absolutely infallible, that is neither 
 a true nor a safe sense of this scripture. And it is very 
 remarkable, that whereas this text hath been so much beaten 
 upon by writers of all sorts, there is no one Father of the 
 church for twelve hundred years after Christ (the counterfeit 
 or partial decretals of some popes excepted) that ever con- 
 cluded the infallibility of the church out of this place ; but her 
 non-deficiency, that hath been and is justly deduced hence : 
 and here I challenge A. C. and all that party to shew the 
 
 s Staj»l. Relect. pra>f. ad lectorem. est. S. August. L. de Symb. ad Cate- 
 
 t Beliarm. de Concil. lib. ii. c. 2. cum. c. 6. 
 
 11 Matt. xvi. 18. y Beliarm. fie Eccl. JMilit. lib. iii. 
 
 X Pugnare potest, expugnaii non pot- c. 13. §. i. &c. 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 135 
 
 contrary if they can. The next place of scripture is ^St. Sect. 25. 
 Matthew xxviii., the promise of Christ that he toill he with 
 them to the end of the icorld. But this, in the general voice of the 
 Fathers^ of the church, is a promise of assistance and pi'o- 
 tection, not of an infallibility of the church. And ^pope Leo 
 himself enlarges this presence and providence of Christ to all 
 those things which he connnitted to the execution of his 
 ministers ; but no word of infallibility is to be found there '■ 
 and indeed since Christ, according to his promise, is present 
 with his ministers in all these things, and that one and a 
 chief of these all is the preaching of his word to the people ; 
 it must follow that Christ should be present with all his 
 ministers that preach his word to make them infallible, which 
 daily experience tells us is not so. The third place urged by 
 A. C. is '^St. Luke xxii., where the prayer of Christ will effect 
 no more than his promise hath performed ; neither of them 
 implying an infallibility for or in the churcli against all errors 
 whatsoever. And this almost all his own side confess is 
 spoken either of St. Peter's person only, or of him and his 
 successors ^both. Of the church it is not spoken, and there- 
 fore cannot prove an unerring power in it : for how can that 
 place prove the church cannot err which speaks not at all of 
 the church ? And it is observable too, that when the divines 
 of Paris expounded this place that Christ here prayed for St. 
 Peter as he represented the whole catholic church, and ob- 
 tained for it that the faith of the catholic church nunquayii 
 deficeret, should never so err as quite to fall away, '^Bellar- 
 mine is so stiff for the pope that he says expressly, '' This ex- 
 position of the Parisians is false," and that this text cannot be 
 meant of the catholic church. Not be meant of it ! then 
 certainly it ought not to be alleged as proof of it, as here it 
 is by A. C. The fourth place named by A. C. is ^St. JohnA. C p. 57. 
 
 z Matt, xxviii. 2 1. place of both St. Peter arid liis siic- 
 
 a S. Hil. in Psal. cxxiv — Pros]). cleVo- cessors. 
 cat. (jent. Ill), ii. c. 2. — Leo, Senii. 2. de e Quae expositio falsa est, priino quia, 
 
 Kesur. Doin. c. 3. et Ep. 31. — Isidor. in &c. P>el]artn. ibid. §. 2. And lie says 
 
 •fos. 12. it is false, because the Parisians ex- 
 
 b In omnibus qua> niinistris suis com- jKninded it of the church only: V'olnnt 
 
 misit exequenda. S. Leo, Lpist. Qi. c. 2. enim j)ro sola ecclesia esse oratuni. Ibid. 
 
 c Luke xxii. 32. §. i. 
 
 il Rellarm. de Rom. Pont. lib. iv. c. 3. f John xiv. 16, 17. 
 
 §. Est iyitur teitia. He understood the 
 
 K 4 
 
136 Archbishop Laud against 
 
 xiv., and the consequent place to it, §St. John xvi. These 
 places contain another promise of Christ concerning the 
 coming of the Holy Ghost. Thus : That the Comforter shall 
 abide with them for ever : that this Comforter is the Spirit of 
 truth ; and that this Spirit of truth will lead them into all truth. 
 Now this promise, as it is applied to the church consisting of 
 all believers which are and have been since Christ appeared 
 in the flesh, including the apostles, is ^ absolute and without 
 any restriction ; for the Holy Ghost did lead them into all 
 truth, so that no error was to be found in that church ; but, 
 as it is appliable to the whole church militant in all succeed- 
 ing times, so tlie promise was made with a limitation, ' namely, 
 that the blessed Spirit should abide with the church for ever 
 and lead it into all truth; but not simply into all curious 
 truth, no not in or about the faith, but into all truth neces- 
 sary to salvation : and against this truth the whole catholic 
 church cannot err, keeping herself to the direction of the 
 scripture as Christ hath appointed her ; for in this very place 
 where the promise is made, that the Hol^/ Ghost shall teach 
 yon all things, it is added, that he shall bring all things to their 
 remembrance. What ! simply all things ? No, but all things 
 which Christ had told them, ^ St. John xiv. ; so there is a 
 limitation put upon the words by Christ himself : and if the 
 church will not err, it must not ravel curiously into unneces- 
 sary truths which are out of the promise, nor follow any other 
 guide than the doctrine which Christ hath left behind him 
 to govern it : for if it will come to the end, it must keep in 
 the way. And Christ, who promised the Spirit should lead, 
 hath nowhere promised that it shall follow its leader into all 
 truth ; and at least not infallibly, unless you will limit as 
 before : so no one of these places can make good A. C's 
 assertion, " That the whole church cannot err generally in 
 any one point of divine truth ;" in absolute foundations 'she 
 cannot, in deductions and superstructures she may. 
 
 g John xvi. I J. mirabiles apostoli omnia in-a^scivernnt. 
 
 h Field, de Eccles. lib. iv. c. c, free Qurecuncine enim exjiediebant, ea illis 
 
 i'l-om all error and ignorani-e of divine signiticavit gratia 8piritus. Theod. in 
 
 tilings. ' I Tim. iii. 14, 15. 
 
 J And Theodoret proceeds, fnrther, and k John xiv. 26. 
 
 savs, Neque divini prophetae, neqne ' Sect. 21 nnni. ^^ 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 137 
 
 VI.— Now to all that I have said concerning the right Sect. 25. 
 which particular churches have to reform themselves when 
 the general church cannot for impediments, or will not for 
 negligence, which I have proved at large ^ before, all the 
 answer that A. C. gives is, first, Quo judice? who shall beA.C. p. 57. 
 judge? — And that shall be the scripture and the "primitive 
 church ; and by the rules of the one, and to the integrity of 
 the other, both in faith and manners, any particular church 
 may safely reform itself. 
 
 VII. — Secondly, " That no reformation in faith can be 
 needful in the general church, but only in particular churches. 
 In which case also (he saith) particular churches may not A. C. p. 58. 
 take upon them to judge and condemn others of errors in 
 faith." Well, how far forth reformation even of faith may 
 be necessary in the general church, I have expressed « already : 
 and for particular churches, I do not say that they must take 
 upon them to judge or condenm others of error in faith ; 
 that which I say is, they may reform themselves. Now I 
 hope to reform themselves and to condemn others are two 
 difterent works, unless it fall out so that by reforming them- 
 selves they do by consequence condemn any other that is 
 guilty in that point in which they reform themselves ; and so 
 far to judge and condemn others is not only lawful but neces- 
 sary. A man that lives religiously doth not by and by sit in 
 judgment and condemn with his mouth all profane livers ; 
 but yet while he is silent his very life condemns them : and I 
 hope in this way of judicature A. 0. dares not say it is un- 
 lawful for a particular church or man to condenm another ; 
 and further, whatsoever A. C. can say to the contrary, there 
 are divers cases, where heresies are known and notorious, in 
 which it will be hard to say (as he doth) that one particular A. C. p. 58. 
 chin-ch must not judge or condemn another, so far forth at 
 least as to abhor and protest against the heresy of it. 
 
 VIII, — Thirdly, if one particular church may not judge or 
 condemn another, what must then be done where particulars 
 
 ■» Sect. 24. iiuin. I. II. &c. flnin est? Quid autem si iiefpie i\\m- 
 
 n Si de modica qiidestione disceptatio stoli ([uidem scri])turas reliquissent iioliis, 
 
 esset, iionne oporteret in aiiti(|iiissimas nonsie ojiorteliat ordiiicin seciui tradi- 
 
 recurrere ecclesias, in (piibns apt»toIi tionis, tVc. Irenspiis adveis. Hwres. lib. 
 
 conversati sunt, et ah iis de prwsenti viii. c. 4. 
 
 <)ua3stione bumere quod certum et Hqui- " Suet. 35. num. IV. 
 
138 Archbishop Laud against 
 
 Sect. 25. need reformation ? What ! why then A. 0. tells us, " That 
 A. C. p. 58. pa^j.^iguiar churches must in that case (as Irenseus intimateth) 
 have recourse to the church of Rome, which hath more power- 
 ful principality, and to Pher bishop, who is chief pastor of the 
 whole church, as being St. Peter s successor, to whom Christ 
 promised the keys, St. Matt, xvi., for whom he prayed that 
 his faith might not fail, St. Luke xxii., and whom he charged 
 to feed and govern the whole flock, St. John xxi. And this 
 (A. 0. tells us) he shall never refuse to do in such sort as 
 that this neglect shall be a just cause for any particular 
 man or church, under pretence of reformation in manners 
 or faith, to niake a schism or separation from the whole 
 general church." 
 
 IX, — Well, first, you see where A. C. would have us : " If 
 any particular churches differ in points of divine truth, they 
 must not judge or condemn each other," saith he. No, take 
 heed of that in any case ; that is the office of the universal 
 church. And yet he will have it that Rome, which is but a 
 particular church, must and ought to judge all other parti- 
 culars. 
 
 X. — Secondly, he tells us this is so, " because the church of 
 Rome hath more powerful principality than other particular 
 churches, and that her bishop is pastor of the whole church." 
 To this I answer, that it is most true indeed, the church of 
 Rome hath had, and hath yet, more powerful principality 
 than any other particular church, but she hath not this power 
 from Christ : the Roman patriarch, by ecclesiastical consti- 
 tutions, might, perhaps, have a primacy of order; but for 
 principality of power, the patriarchs were as even, as equal, 
 as the '^apostles were before them. The truth is, this ''more 
 
 V And after lie saith, p. c,8, " That aliis vero tanquam rielegatis, quibiis non 
 
 the hishop of Kome is and ought to be succederetiir. This is handsomely said 
 
 the judge of partii-nlar churches in this to men easy of hehef: l)ut that the 
 
 case." highest ])o\ver ecclesiastical, confessed to 
 
 fl Siimnia ])otestas ecclesiastica non be given to the otlier apostles as well 
 
 est data solum Petro, sed etiam aliis as to St. Peter, was given to St. Peter 
 
 apostolis. Omnes enim poterant dicere only, as to an ordinary pastor, whose 
 
 ilhid S. Panli, solUcitudn omnium eccle- successors should have the same power, 
 
 siarum, <^-c. i Cor. xi. 28. Bellarm. de which the successors of the rest should 
 
 Rom. Pont. liii. i. c. 9. §. Respondeo not have, can never be proved out of 
 
 pontiiicatum Whei-e then is the dif- scripture; nay, (I will give them their 
 
 ference between St. Peter and the rest? own latitude,) it can never be i)roved 
 
 In this, saith Rellarmine, ibid., Quia hy any tradition of the whole catholic 
 
 ha-c potestas data est Petro, ut ordina- church : and till it be proved, Bellar- 
 
 rio pastori, cui perpetuo succederetur ; mine's handsome expression cannot be 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 1B9 
 
 powerful principality" the Roman bishops ■■ got under the Sect. 25. 
 emperors after they became Christians; and they used the 
 matter so that they grew big enough to oppose, nay, to 
 depose the emperors, by the same power which they had 
 given them. And after this, other particular churches, espe- 
 cially here in the west, submitted themselves to them for 
 succour and protection's sake. And this was one main cause 
 which swelled Rome into this more powerful principality, and 
 not any right given by Christ to make that « prelate pastor 
 of the whole church. I know Bellarmine makes much ado 
 about it, and will needs fetch it out of 'St. Augustine, who 
 says indeed that " in the church of Rome there did always 
 flourish the principality of an apostolic chair ;" or, if you 
 will, the apostolic chair in relation to the west and south 
 parts of the church, all the other four apostolic chairs being 
 in the east. Now this no man denies that understands the 
 state and story of the church ; and " Calvin confesses it ex- 
 pressly : nor is the word principatus so great, nor were the 
 bishops of those times bo little, as that principes and princi- 
 patiis are not commonly given them both by the ^ Greek and 
 the Latin Fathers of this great and learnedest age of the 
 church, made up of the fourth and fifth hundred years; 
 always understanding principatus of their spiritual power, and 
 within the limits of their several jurisdictions, whicli perhaps 
 now and then they did occasionally exceed. And there is 
 not one word in St. Augustine, That this principality of the 
 apostolic chair in the church of Rome was then, or ought to 
 be now, exercised over the whole church of Christ, as Bellar- 
 
 believed by me; for .'^t. t'ypriiin bath bislioi) in general, Greg. Naziaiiz. Orat. 
 
 told me K)ng since that ejiiscojiatus unus l 7. Ascriliuntur episcopo Zvvr](TTiia, ^rj- 
 
 est (for as iiiuch as belongs to the eall- fia, Kal apxv, imperinm, thronus, et 
 
 ing) as -well as apostolatus. Lib. de jirim'ipatus ad regimen aninianiin. Et 
 
 simp. Prtplato. roiavrri apxv, hujnsmodi imperium 
 
 1" Sect 25. num. XII. And he also speaks of a bishop, Greg. 
 
 s De Rom. Pont. lib. i. c. 9. §. An- Nazianz. Orat. 20. Nor were these 
 
 gustinus epistola. any titles of pride in bishops then; for 
 
 t Ejiist. 167.. In Romanaecclesia sem- St. (ireg. Nazianzen, who challenges 
 
 per ajiostolica? cathedrse viguit princi- these titles to himself, Orat. 17, was so 
 
 patus. devout, so mild, and so himible, that 
 
 u Quia opinio iuvaluit fiindatam esse rather than the peace of the church 
 
 hanc ecclesiam a S. Petro; itaque in should be broken, he freely resigned the 
 
 occidente sedes apostolica honoris causa great patriarchate of Constantinople, and 
 
 vocalKitur. Calv. lib. iv. c. 6. §. 16. retired; and this in the first council 
 
 X Princeps ecdesise, S. Hilar, de Trin. of Constantinople, and the second ge- 
 
 Jib. viii. princ. And he speaks of a neral. 
 
140 Archhishoj) Laud against 
 
 Sect. 25. mine insinuates there, and as A, C. would have it here. And 
 to prove that St. Augustine did not intend by principatus 
 here to give the Roman bishop any power out of his own 
 Hmits, (which, God knows, were far short of the whole church,) 
 I shall make it most manifest out of the very same epistle. 
 For afterwards, saith St. Augustine, when the pertinacy of 
 the Donatists could not be restrained by the African bishops 
 only, " y they gave them leave to be heard by foreign bishops." 
 And after that he hath these words : " ^ And yet peradven- 
 ture Melciades, the bishop of the Roman chui'ch, with his 
 colleagues the transmarine bishops, non dehuit, ought not to 
 usurp to himself this judgment, which was determined by 
 seventy African bishops, Tigisitanus sitting primate. And 
 what will you say if he did not usurp this power? for the 
 emperor being desired sent bishops judges, which should sit 
 with him and determine what was just upon the whole cause." 
 In which passage there are very many things observable. 
 As, first, that the Roman prelate came not in till there was 
 leave for them to go to transmarine bishops. Secondly, that 
 if the pope had come in without this leave, it had been an 
 usurpation. Thirdly, that when he did thus come in, not by 
 his own proper authority, but by leave, there were other 
 bishops made judges with him. Fourthly, that these other 
 bishops were appointed and sent by the emperor and his 
 power ; — that which the pope will least of all endure. Lastly, 
 lest the pope and his adherents should say this was an usur- 
 pation in the emperor, ^St. Augustine tells us a little before, 
 in the same epistle still, that "this doth chiefly belong ad 
 curam ejus, to the emperor s care and charge, and that he 
 is to ffive an account to God for it." And Melciades did sit 
 and judge the business with all Christian pi'udence and mode- 
 ration. So at this time the Roman [)relate was not received 
 as pastor of the whole church, say A. C. what he please : nor 
 had he any supremacy over the other patriarchs : and for 
 
 y Pergant ad fratres et collegas nos- fuerit terniiiiatuin ? Quid quod iiec ipse 
 
 tros transmarinarum ecclesiarum epi- usurpavit : rogatus quippe iinperator, 
 
 scopes, &c. S. August. Ep. 162. indices misit episcopos, qui cum eo sede- 
 
 z An forte non debuit Romana? eccle- rent, et de tota ilia causa, quod justum 
 
 site Melciades episcojMis cum collegis videretur, statuerent, &c. S Aug. ibid, 
 trausmariiiis e])iscopis illud silii usur- a Ad cujus curam, de qua rationem 
 
 pare judicium quod al) ^VfVis septua- Decj redditurus est, res ilia maximc per- 
 
 giiita, ulii jirimas Tigisitanus pnesedit, tinebat. S. August. Ej). 162. 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 141 
 
 this, wore all other records of antiquity silent, the civil law Sect. 25. 
 is proof enough, (and that is a monument of the primitive 
 church.) The text there is, ^A patnarclia non datur appel- 
 hitio, " from a patriarch there lies no appeal." . No appeal- 
 therefore every patriarch was alike supreme in his own 
 pati"iarchate ; therefore the pope then had no supremacy 
 over the whole church ; therefore certainly not then received 
 as universal pastor. And St. Gregory himself, speaking of 
 appeals, and expressly citing the laws themselves, says plainly, 
 "cThat the patriarch is to put a final end to those causes 
 which come before him by appeal from bishops and arch- 
 bishops :" but then he adds, " ^ That where there is nor 
 metropolitan nor patriarch of that diocess, there they are to 
 have recourse to the see apostolic, as being the head of all 
 churches." Where, first, this implies plainly, that if there 
 be a metropolitan or a patriarch in those churches, his judg- 
 ment is final, and there ought to be no appeal to Rome. 
 Secondly, it is as plain, that in those ancient times of the 
 church government Britain was never subject to the see of 
 Rome ; for it was one of the «^six diocesses of the west empire, 
 and had a primate of its own : nay, * John Capgrave, one of 
 your own, and learned for those times, and long before him 
 William of Malmsbury, tell us that " pope Urban the Second, 
 at the council held at Bari in Apulia, accounted my worthy 
 predecessor St. Anselm as his own compeer, and said he was 
 the apostolic and patriarch of the other world," (so he then 
 termed this island.) Now the Britons having a primate of 
 their own, (which is greater than a metropolitan,) yea, a 
 S patriarch, if you will, he could not bo appealed from to 
 
 b Nam contra horum aiitistitum (tie omnium ecclesianim caput est, causa 
 
 patriarchis loquitur) sententias, non esse audienda est, &c. S. Greg. ibid, 
 locum ajijiellationi a majoril)us nostris e Notitia provinciarum occidentalium, 
 
 constitutum est. Cod. 1j. i. tit.4. 1. 29. ex per Cniiduni Pancirolum, lib. ii. c. 48. 
 editione GothotVedi — iSi non rata ha- f Hunc cunctis liberalium artium dis- 
 
 buerit utraque pars, qua; judicata sunt, ciplinis eruditum pro magistro tenea- 
 
 tunc beatissinuis patriai'dia di(cceseos mus, et quasi comparem, vehit alterius 
 
 illius, inter eos audiat, &c. Nulla parte orbis apostolicum et patriarcliam, &c. 
 
 ejus sentential contradicere valente. Au- Jo. Capgravius de Vitis Sanctorum, in 
 
 then. Collat. 9. tit. 15. c. 22. Vita S. Anselmi ; et Guil. Malmsbu- 
 
 c ]^t ille (si'ilicet ])atriarcha) secun- riens. de Gestis Pontificum Anglorum. 
 
 dum cauones, et leges pra-beat finem. p. 223. edit. Francof. 1601. 
 And there be cites the novel itself. e ll)i (Cantuarife id est) prima sedes 
 
 S. Greg. lib. xi. Indict. 2. Ep. 54. archiepiscopi habetur, qui est totius An- 
 
 cl Si dictum fuerit, quod nee metro- gliie primas et patriarcha. Guil. i\Ialms- 
 
 politanum habeat, nee ])atriarcham : di- buriensis in Prolog, lib. i. de Gestis 
 
 cendum est, quod a sede apostolica, quif Pontificum Anglorum, p. 195. 
 
142 ArchhisJiop Laud a(ja hist 
 
 Sect. ■25. Rome, by St. Gregory's own doctrine. Thirdly, it will be 
 hard for any man to prove there were any chnrches then in 
 the woi'ld which were not nnder some either patriarch or 
 metropolitan. Fourthly, if any such were, it is ffratis dictum, 
 and impossible to be proved, that all such churches, wherever 
 seated in the world, were obliged to depend on Rome ; for 
 manifest it is that the bishops which were ordained in places 
 without the limits of the Roman empire (which places they 
 commonly called ^ barbarous) were all to be ordained, and 
 therefore most probable to be governed by the patriarch of 
 Constantinople. And for Rome's being the head of all 
 churches, I have said enough to that in divers parts of this 
 discourse. 
 
 XI. — And since I am thus fallen upon the church of Afric, 
 I shall borrow another reason from the practice of that 
 church, why by pr'mcipatus St. Augustine neither did nor 
 could mean any principality of the church, or bishop of Rome 
 over the whole church of Christ. For, as the acts of councils 
 and stories go, the African prelates finding that all succeed- 
 ing popes were not of Melciades his temper, set themselves 
 to assert their own liberties, and held it out stoutly against 
 Zozimus, Boniface the First, and Cwlestine the First, who 
 were successively popes of Rome. At last it was concluded, 
 in the sixth council of Carthage, (wherein were assembled 
 two hundred and seventeen bishops, of which St. Augustine 
 himself was one,) that they would not give way to such a 
 manifest encroachment upon their rights and liberties ; and 
 thereupon gave present notice to pope Coelestine to forhear 
 sending his officers amongst them, "'lest he should seem to 
 induce the swelling pride of the world into the church of 
 Christ." And this is said to have amounted into a formal 
 separation from the church of Rome, and to have continued 
 for the space of somewhat more than one hundred years. 
 Now that such a separation there was of the African church 
 from Rome, and a reconciliation after, stands upon the credit 
 
 h Praeterea et (jui sunt eV tois ^ap&a- is meant in solo barbarorum. Annot. 
 
 ptKois, ill barbarico, episco})i a Sanctis- ibid. 
 
 simo throno sanctissimse Constantino- i Ne fiimosum typhum seculi in eccle- 
 
 politanaj ecclesiae ordinentnr Codex siani Cliristi videatur indncere, &c. 
 
 Canonnm Ecflesia' univers*. Can. 206. Epist. Concil. Afric. ad Papam Ca^Iesti- 
 
 And .Justellns jn-oves it there at large, nnm Priirmni. Apud Nicolin. Concil. 
 
 that hv in bnr/idrico, in tliat canon, torn. i. p. S44. 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 143 
 
 and authority of two public instruments extant both among Sect. 25. 
 the ancient councils : the one is an ^ Epistle from Boniface 
 the Second, in whose time the reconciliation to Rome is said 
 to be made by Eulalius, then bishop of Carthage, but the 
 separation instipante diabolo, by the temptation of the devil ; 
 the other is an ^Exemplar Precum, or copy of the petition of 
 the same Eulalius, in which he damns and curses all those 
 his predecessors which went against the church of Rome : 
 amongst which Eulalius must needs curse St. Augustine ; and 
 pope Boniface, accepting this submission, must acknowledge 
 that St. Augustine and the rest of that council deserved this 
 curse, and died under it, as violating rectce fidei regulam, the 
 rule of the right faith, (so the Exemplar Precum begins,) by 
 refusing the pope\s authority. I will not deny but that there 
 are divers reasons given by the learned Romanists and re- 
 formed writers for and against the truth and authority of 
 both these instruments : but because this is too long to be 
 examined here, I will say but this, and then make my use 
 of it to my present purpose, giving the church of Rome free 
 leave to acknowledge these instruments to be true or false, 
 as they please : that which I shall say is this ; These instru- 
 ments are let stand in all editions of the councils and epistles 
 decretal ; as for example, in the old edition by Isidore, anno 
 1524; and in another old edition of them printed anno 1530; 
 and in that which was published by P. Crabbe, anno 1538; 
 and in the edition of Valentinus Joverius, anno 1 555 ; and 
 in that by Surius, anno 1567; and in the edition at Venice, 
 by Nicolinus, anno 1585 : and in all of these without any 
 note or censure upon them. And they are in the edition of 
 Binius too, anno 1618 ; but there is a censure upon them, to 
 keep a quarter, it may be, with f"Baronius, who was the first 
 (I think) that ever quarrelled them, and he doth it tartly. 
 And since, " Bellarmine follows the same way, but more 
 doubtfully. This is that which I had to say. And the use 
 which I shall make of these instruments, whether they be 
 
 k Epist. Bonif'acii II. apiul Nicol. n Valde mihi illae epistolas siispectae 
 
 Concil. torn. ii. p. 544. sunt. Bellarm. de Rom. Pont. lib. ii. 
 
 1 Exenip. Preciim apud Nicolin. ibid. c. 75. §. Respondeo priinum. — Sed si 
 
 p. 525. forte ilia? epistol?e vltsb sunt, nihil enini 
 
 I" Baron. Aiinal. an. ad 419. num. affirmo, &c. Ibid. §. ult. 
 93^ 94- 
 
144 Archhishop Laud against 
 
 Sect. 25. true or false, is this : They are either true or false, that is 
 of necessity. If they be false, then Boniface the Second, and 
 his accomplices at Rome, or some for them, are notorious 
 forgers, and that of records of great consequence concerning 
 the government and peace of the whole church of Christ, and 
 to the perpetual infamy of that see ; and all this foolishly, 
 and to no purpose : for if there were no such separation as 
 these records mention of the African churches from the 
 Roman, to what end should Boniface, or any other, counter- 
 feit an epistle of his own, and a submission of Eulalius 1 On 
 the other side, if these instruments be true, (as the sixth 
 council of Carthage, against all other arguments, makes me 
 incline to believe they are, in substance at least, though per- 
 haps not in all circumstances,) then it is manifest that the 
 church of Afric separated from the church of Rome ; that 
 this separation continued above one hundred years ; that the 
 church of Afric made this separation in a national council of 
 their own, which had in it two hundred and seventeen bishops ; 
 that this separation was made (for aught appears) only be- 
 cause they at Rome were too ready to entertain appeals from 
 the church of Afric, as appears in the case of ^Appiarius, 
 who then appealed thither; that St. Augustine, Eugenius, 
 Fulgentius, and all those bishops and other martyrs which 
 suffered in the Vandalic persecution, died in the time of 
 this separation ; that if this separation were not just, but a 
 schism, then these famous Fathers of the church died (for 
 aught appears) in actual and unrepented schism, Pand out of 
 the church ; and if so, then how comes St. Augustine to be 
 and be accounted a saint all over the Christian world, and at 
 Rome itself^ But if the separation were just, then is it far 
 more lawful for the church of England by a national council 
 to cast off the pope's usurpation (as ^ishe did) than it was 
 for the African church to separate ; because then the African 
 church excepted only against the pride of Rome ^in case of 
 
 o And so the council of Carthaj^e noriini martyi'uni agmina, qui in per- 
 
 sent word to pope Cadestine plainly, secutione Vaiidalica pro tide catholica, 
 
 that in admitting' such appeals he l)rake &c. Baron. Annal. an. 419. num. 93. 
 
 the decrees of the council of Nice, et Binius in Notis ad Epist. Bonifacii Ii. 
 
 Epist. Concil. Afric. ad Ccelestinum, ad Eulalium. 
 c. 105- apud Nicol. Cone. torn. i. p. 844. <1 .Sect. 24. num. V. 
 
 P Plane e.t ecclesise catholicai albo r Bellaim. de Rom. Pont. lib. ii. 
 
 expiingenda fuissent sanctorum Africa- c. 25. §. 2. 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 145 
 
 appeals, and two other canons less material, but the church Sect. 25. 
 of England excepts (besides this grievance) against many 
 corruptions in doctrine belonging to the faith, with which 
 Rome at that time of the African separation was not tainted. 
 And I am out of all doubt that St. Augustine and those 
 other famous men in their generations durst not thus have 
 separated from Rome, had the pope had that powei'ful prin- 
 cipality over the whole church of Christ, and that by Christ's 
 own ordinance and institution, as A. C. pretends he had. a.C. p. 58. 
 
 XII. — I told you a little * before that the popes grew under 
 the emperors till they had overgrown them : and now, lest 
 A. 0. should say I speak it without proof, I will give you a 
 brief touch of the church stoiy in that behalf, and that from 
 the beginning of the emperors' becoming Christians to the 
 time of Charles the Great, which contains about five hundred 
 years : for so soon as the emperors became Christian, the 
 church (which before was kept under by persecutions) began 
 to be put in better order. For the calling and authority of 
 bishops over the inferior clergy, that was a thing of known 
 use and benefit for preservation of imity and peace in the 
 church. And so nmch ' St. Jerome tells us, though, being 
 none himself, he was no great friend to bishops. And this 
 was so settled in the minds of men from the very infancy of 
 the Christian church, as that it had not been to that time 
 contradicted by any. So that then there was no controversy 
 about the calling ; all agreed upon that : the only difficulty 
 was to accommodate the places and precedencies of bishops 
 among themselves, for the very necessity of order and govern- 
 ment. To do this, the most equal and impartial way was, 
 that " as the church is in the commonwealth, not the com- 
 
 s Sect. 2-;. num. X. same epistle he acknowledges it; Tia- 
 
 t Quod autem postea unus electiis ditionem esse apostolicam : nay, more 
 
 est qui cwteris praeponeretur, in schis- than so, he affirms plainly that uhi non 
 
 matis i-emedium factum est, ne uiuis- est sacerdos, non est ecclesia. S. Hieron. 
 
 quisque ad se trahens C^hristi ecclesiam advers. Lucif'eriau. And in that place 
 
 runijieret. Nam et Alexandrite a Marco most manifest it is, that St. .ferume i)y 
 
 evangelista preshyteri semper imimi ex sucerdos means a bishnp ,• for he speaks 
 
 se electimi in excellentiori gradu col- de sacerdote qui potestatem habet ordi- 
 
 locatum, episcopum nominabant, &c. nandi, which, in St. .Jerome's own judg- 
 
 S. Hieron. in Epist. ad Evagrium. So, ment, no mere priest had, but a bishoj) 
 
 even according to St. .Jerome, bishojis only. S. Hieron. ]';])ist. ad Evagrium. 
 
 had a very ancient and honouralile de- So, e\"en with him, no bisho]) and no 
 
 scent in the church, from St. Mark the church, 
 evangelist : and about the end of the 
 
146 Archhishop Laud against 
 
 Sect. 25. monwealth in it," (as "Optatus tells us,) so the honours of 
 the church should ^ follow the honours of the state: and so 
 it was insinuated, if not ordered (as appears) by the canons 
 of the councils of Chalcedon and Antioch. And this was the 
 very fountain of papal greatness, the pope having his resi- 
 dence in the great imperial city. But precedency is one 
 thing, and authority is another : it was thought fit therefore, 
 though (as y St. Cyprian speaks) episcopatus unus est, the call- 
 ino- of a bishop be one and the same, that yet among bishops 
 there should be a certain subordination and subjection. The 
 empire therefore being cast into several divisions (which they 
 then called diocesses), every diocess contained several pro- 
 vinces, every province several bishoprics: the chief of the 
 diocess (in that larger sense) was called e^ap^os, and some- 
 times a patriarch ; the chief of a province, a metropolitan : 
 next, the bishops in their several diocesses (as we now use 
 that word) ; among these there was effectual subjection re- 
 spectively, grounded upon canon and positive law, in their 
 several quarters, but over them none at all ; all the difference 
 there was but honorary, not authoritative. If the ambition 
 of some particular persons did attempt now and then to 
 break these bounds, it is no marvel ; for no calling can sanc- 
 tify all that have it. And Socrates tells us that in this way 
 the bishops of Alexandria and Eome advanced themselves to 
 a great height, -nipa r?]? Upi^avi-qs, even beyond the quality 
 of bishops. Now upon view of story it will appear, that w4iat 
 advantage accrued to Alexandria was gotten by the violence 
 of Theophilus, patriarch there, a man of exceeding great 
 learnino;, and of no less violence : and he made no little 
 advantage out of this, that the empress Eudoxia used his 
 help for the casting of St. Chrysostom out of Constantinople. 
 But the Roman prelates grew, by a steady and constant 
 watchfulness upon all occasions, to increase the honour of 
 that see, interposing and ^ assuming to themselves to be vin- 
 dices canomim (as St. Gregory Nazianzen speaks), defenders 
 and restorers of the canons of the church ; which was a fair 
 pretence, and took extremely well. But yet the world took 
 
 u Non eniin respub. est in ccolesia, Y S. tH-priaii. lib. de Sinij). Praelat. 
 
 sed ecclesia in veinib. Optat. lil). iii. z "^s Aeyovai] Ut ainnt, sive se jac- 
 
 X Concil. Chalcedon. can. 9. et act. tantesse. Greg. Nazianz. Carm. de Vita 
 
 xvi. sua, p. 26. 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 147 
 
 notice of this their aim : for in all contestations betwixt the Sect. 25. 
 east and the west, which were nor small nor few, the western 
 bishops objected levity to the eastern, and they again arro- 
 gancy to the bishops of the west, as ^Bilius observes, and 
 upon very warrantable testimonies. For all this the bishop 
 of Rome continued in good obedience to the emperor, endur- 
 ing his censures and judgments : and being chosen by the 
 clergy and people of Rome, he accepted from the emperor 
 the ratification of that choice ; insomuch that, about the year 
 579, when all Italy was on fire with the Lombards, and 
 ^'Pclagius the Second, constrained through the necessity of 
 the times, contrary to the example of his predecessors, to 
 enter upon the popedom without the emperor's leave, St. 
 Gregory, then a deacon, was shortly after sent on embassy to 
 excuse it. About this time brake out the ambition of ^ John, 
 patriarch of Constantinople, affl'cting to be universal bishop. 
 He was countenanced in this by jMauricius the emperor, but 
 sourly opposed by Pelagius and St. Gregory ; insomuch that 
 fist. Gregory says plainly, "That this pride of his shews that 
 the times of Antichrist were near." So as yet (and this was 
 now upon the point of six hundred years after Christ) there 
 was no universal bishop, no one monarch over the whole 
 militant church. But jNIauricius being deposed and murdered 
 by Phocas, Phocas conferred upon eJ3oniface the Third that 
 
 a Orieiitalibus levitas, occidentalil)us liisliop of Rome nor any other ought to 
 
 arrog-antia iiivicem ohjecta est. Rihus take on him that title, f'ura totiiis 
 
 Aiinot. in S. (Jreg. Na/.iair/,. ^'itam, ecclesia" et principatus S. Petro cominit- 
 
 nnm. 153. — Quid opus est occidentali titur, et tamen uiiiversah's ajiostohis non 
 
 supenilio ? ex S. Basil., &c. vocatur. S. Greg. lib. iv. epist. 76. 
 
 b Hwc una fuit causa (piare Pelagius (Therefore neither is iiis siiccessor uni- 
 
 injussu principis pontife.^ creatus sit, versal bishop.) — Nun(jiiid ego hac in re 
 
 quum e.Ktra obsessam ab hoste urbem ])ropriam lausam defendo ? Ntmfpiid 
 
 niitti quispiam nou posset, <^:c. Postea specialem injuriani vindico? Et non 
 
 itaipie ad |)lacaiiduni iniperatorem Ore- magis causani onuiipoteutis Dei et uni- 
 
 gorius diaconus, I'tc. Platina iu A'ita veisalis eiclesia; ? "\rhere he i>laiiily de- 
 
 Pelagii II. et Onuj)!!. ibid. nies that he speaks in his own cause, 
 
 c Onupli. in Plat, in Wv.i IJonif. III. or in the cause of liis see. — Per vene- 
 
 <1 In liac ejus snperl)ia 4|uid aliud nisi randani Cbalcedouensem synodum hoc 
 
 propinqua jam Anti(;hristi esse tempora noiuen Rom. pontitici oblatum est, sed 
 
 designator. 8. Greg. lib. iv. epist. 78. uullus eorum unquam hoc singularitatis 
 
 e It maybe thev will say, St. Gregory vocabubiin assumpsit, nee uti consensit, 
 
 did not inveigh against the thiin/, l)ut ne dum privatum alicpiid daretur uui, 
 
 the /jcr.voj),- that .John of Constantinople honore debito sacerdotes pri\arentur 
 
 shoidd take th;it upon hiui which iie- universi, ^c. ; where he ])lainly says 
 
 longed to the po]ie ; but it is manifest the Roman bishops rejected this title, 
 
 by St.(rregory''s own te.xt, that he sj)eaks Ibid. And yet for all this, jiope (ir<!- 
 
 against the thing itself, that neither the gory VII. delivers it as one of his dic- 
 
 L 2 
 
148 Archbishojj Land against 
 
 Sect. 25. very honour which two of his predecessors had declaimed 
 against as ^ monstrous and blasphemous, if not antichristian. 
 Where, by the way, either those two popes, Pelagius and 
 St. Gregory, erred in this weighty business about an universal 
 bishop over the whole church ; or if they did not err, Boni- 
 face and the rest which after him took it upon them were in 
 their very predecessors judgment antichristian. But to pro- 
 ceed. sAs yet the right of election or ratification of the 
 pope continued in the emperor ; but then the Lombards grew 
 so great in Italy, and the empire was so infested with Sara- 
 cens, and such changes happened in all parts of the world, as 
 that neither for the present the homage of the pope was 
 useful to the emperor, nor the protection of the emperor 
 available for the pope. By this means the bishop of Rome 
 was left to play his own game by himself; a thing which, as 
 it pleased him well enough, so both he and his successors 
 made great advantage by it: for being grown to that emi- 
 nence by the emperor, and the greatness of that city and 
 place of his abode, he found himself the more free, the greater 
 the tempest was that beat upon the other. And then, first, 
 hhe set himself to alienate the hearts of the Italians from 
 the emperor; next, he opposed himself against him. And 
 about the year seven hundred and ten pope Constantino the 
 First did also first of all openly confront Philippicus the 
 emperor in defence of images, as ' Onuphrius tells us. After 
 him ^ Gregory the Second and the Third took up his example, 
 and did the like by Leo Isaurus. By this time the Lombards 
 began to pinch very close, and to vex on all sides not Italy 
 
 tales, in a council held at Rome ahoiit teiideret, quod superiorihus temporibus 
 
 the year 1076, Quod solus Koniauus fere inagis cum poiititicilius ijuaui cum 
 
 youtli'ex jm-ti diciitni- universalis. Earon. imi)eratorilius sensissent ingressurum 
 
 Annal. ad an. 1076. num. 31 et 32. llomaui interlicere constituerant. (And 
 
 t Absit a cordibus Cbristianoruni no- the emperor's own governor was lain to 
 
 men istud blasphenii;e. S. Grej^. lib. iv. be defended from the em])eror's own 
 
 epist. 76.. In isto scelesto vocabnlo con- soldiers by the pope's power, who had 
 
 sentire, nihil est aliud quam tidem per- gotten interest in them against their 
 
 dere. Ibid. lib. iv. ejiist. 83. own master.) Platina in Vita Jolian. VI. 
 
 i; Vana tunc habeliatur cleri et po- Absimarus was then emperor, 
 puli electio, nisi aut imperatores, aut i Primus omnium Kom. pontificum 
 eorum exarchi coiilirmasseut. Plat, in imperatori (irwco Philijipico in os re- 
 Vita Severini I. sistere palam ausus est. Onuph. in Plat. 
 
 h Quum Theophylactus exai-chus ini- in A'ita Constautini I. 
 
 jieratoris Italiam petei-et, milites Itali, k Platina in Vita Gregor. II. et III. 
 veriti ne uuid mali ejus adventus i)or- 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 1 4-9 
 
 only, but Rome too. This drives the pope to seek a new Sect. 25. 
 patron ; and very fitly he meets with Charles Martel in 
 France, that famous warrior against the Saracens ; ' him he 
 implores in defence of the church against the Lombards. 
 This address seems very advisedly taken, at least it proves 
 very fortunate to them both; "^for in short time it dissolved 
 the kingdom of the Lombards in Italy, which had then stood 
 two hundred and four years, which was the pope's security, 
 and it brought the crown of France into the house of Charles, 
 and shortly after the western empire. And now began the 
 pope to be great indeed; for by the bounty of "Pepin, son 
 of Charles, that which was taken from the Lombards was 
 given to the pope, so that now of a bishop he became a 
 temporal prince. But when Charles the Great had set up 
 the western empire, then he resumed the ancient and original 
 power of the emperor, to govern the church, to call councils, 
 to order papal elections. And this power continued in his 
 posterity ; for this right of the emperor was in force and use 
 in Gregory the Seventh's time, ^who was confirmed in the 
 popedom by Henry the Fourth, whom he afterward deposed : 
 and it might have continued longer, if the succeeding empe- 
 rors had had abilities enough to secure or vindicate their 
 own right ; but the pope, keeping a strong council about 
 him, and meeting with some weak princes, and they ofttimes 
 distracted with great and dangerous wars, grew stronger, till 
 he got the better. So this is enough to shew how the popes 
 climbed up by the emperors till they overtopped them ; which 
 is all I said before, and have now proved. And this was 
 about the year 1073; (for the whole popedom of Gregory 
 the Seventh was begun and ended wit^^in the reign of William 
 the Conqueror.) Yet was it carried n succeeding times with 
 great changes of fortune and different success ; the emperor 
 sometimes plucking from the pope, and the Ppope from the 
 
 1 Ut lal)oranti RomiP et ecclesia? ])ri- o Imperator in gratiam cum Gregorio 
 
 ino qnoqiie tempore aiixiliuiii ferret, rediit, eundemiiue in pontificatu confir- 
 
 &c. Platin. in Vita (ireg. III. niavit, ut turn imjieratoruiii mos erat. 
 
 m Qua? res seniel incepta cum Lougo- Plat, in Vita Gregor. Se])tim. 
 
 hardici regni excidio tinita est. Omij)!!. V I\lulti deinde fuerunt imperatores 
 
 in Plat, in Vita Constantini Prinii. lien, similiores, quani Jul. Cifsari, quos 
 
 1 Redditus itaque Romanis exarcha- subigere non fuit difficile, dum domi 
 
 tus est, quicquid Padum et ApenniniuTi remm omnium securi, &c. Calv. Instit. 
 
 interjacet, &c. Plat, in Vita Stephan. lib. iv. c. ii. §. 13. 
 Secundi. 
 
 L.3 
 
150 Archbishop Laud acjamst 
 
 Sect. 25. emperor, winning and losing ground, as their spirits, abilities, 
 aids, and opportunities were, till at the last the pope settled 
 himself upon the grounds laid by q Gregory the Seventh, in 
 the great power which he now uses in and over these parts of 
 the Christian world. 
 
 XIII. — Thirdly, A. C. knowing it is not enough to say 
 this, " That the pope is pastor of the whole church," labours 
 to prove it. And first he tells us that Irenseus intimates so 
 much, but he doth not tell us where ; and he is much scanted 
 of ancient proof, if Ircn?eus stand alone. Besides, Irenseus 
 was a bishop of the Galilean church, and a very unlikely man 
 to captivate the liberty of that church under the more power- 
 ful principality of Eome. And how can we have better evi- 
 dence of his judgment touching that principality than the 
 actions of his life l When pope Victor exconmumicated the 
 Asian churches aOpocji^, ""all at a blow, was not Iremeus the 
 chief man that reprehended him for it ? A very unmeet and 
 undutiful thing sure it had been in Irenseus, in deeds to tax 
 him of rashness and inconsiderateness, whom in words A. C 
 would have to be acknowledged by him " the supreme and 
 infallible pastor of the universal church." But the place of 
 Irenseus which A. 0. means (I think) is this, where he uses 
 these words indeed, but short of A. C's sense of it : " ^To this 
 church," he speaks of Rome, " propter potentiorem pr'mcip)ali- 
 tatem, for the more powerful principality of it, it is neces- 
 sary that every church, that is, the faithful, undiqne, round 
 A. C. p. 58. about, should have recourse." " Should have recourse," so A. C. 
 
 (\ For ill a synod at Rome aliont the liber canoiiiciis Iiaheatur al)S((ue illius 
 
 j'ear 1076, jiope Gregory tlie Seventh authoritate." " Quod sententia illiiis 
 
 established eertaiii brief conchisions, a nuUo debet retractari, et ipse omnium 
 
 twenty-seven in number, upon which sohis retractare jiutest." " Quod Kom. 
 
 stands almost all the greatness of tlie ecclesia nunquam erravit, nee in per- 
 
 papacy. These conclusions are called petuum, scriptura testante, errahit." 
 
 dictatus papce. And they are reckoned " Quod Kom. pontifex, si canonice 
 
 up by Baronius in the year 1076. num. fuerit ordinatus, ineritis 1>. Petri in- 
 
 .^i, 32, &c But whether this dictator- dubitanter efficitur sanctus." "Quod 
 
 ship did now first invade the church, a fidelitate iniquorum subditos potest 
 
 I cannot certainly say. Tlie chief absolvere." 
 
 of those propositions follow here. — J" Euseli. lib. v. c. 25. 
 
 " Quod solus Horn, pontifex jure dica- s Ad banc ecdesiam propter poten- 
 
 tur imivermlis.'''' " Quod solius pa]);H tiorem principalitatem, necesse est om- 
 
 pedes omnes ])rincipes deosculentur." nem convenire ecclesiam, i. e. eos qui 
 
 " Quod liceat illi imperatores depo- sunt undique fideles : in qua semper 
 
 nere." " Quod nulla synodus abs(iue al) his qui sunt undique, conservata 
 
 I)r8ecepto ejus debet generalis vocari." est ea qu;e est ab apostolis traditio. 
 
 " Quod nullum capitulum, nullusque Iren. lib. iii. c. 3. 
 
Fisher the Jemit. 151 
 
 translates it; and what doth this avail hinil Very great Sect. 25. 
 reason was there in Irenseus his time, that upon any differ- 
 ence arising in the ftiith, omnes undique jideles, all the faith- 
 ful, or if you will, all the churches round about, should have 
 recourse, that is, resort to Rome, being the imperial city; 
 and so a church of more powerful principality than any other 
 at that time in those parts of the world. Well, will this 
 exalt Rome to be the head of the church universal l What 
 if the states and policies of the world be much changed since, 
 and this conveniency of resorting to Rome be quite ceased ? 
 then is not Rome divested of her more powerful principality? 
 Rut the meaning of A. C. is, we must so have recourse to 
 Rome as to submit our faitli to hers ; and then, not only in 
 Iren^us his time, but through all times reform ourselves by 
 her rule : that is, all the faithful, not imdiqiie, round about, 
 but uhiqne, every where, must agree with Rome in point of 
 faith. This he means, and Rome may thank him for it ; but 
 this Irenffius saith not, nor will his words bear it, nor durst 
 A. C. therefore construe him so, but was content to smooth 
 it over with this ambiguous phrase, " of having recourse to 
 Rome ;" yet this is a place as much stood upon by them as 
 any other in all antiquity. And should I grant them their 
 own sense, " That all the faithful every where must agree 
 with Rome," (which I may give, but can never grant,) yet were 
 not this saying any whit prejudicial to us now. For, first, 
 here is a powerful principality ascribed to the church of 
 Rome ; and that no man of learning doubts but the church 
 of Rome had within its own patriarchate and jurisdiction, 
 and that was very large, containing ^all the provinces in the 
 diocess of Italy (in the old sense of the word diocess) ; which 
 provinces the lawyers and others term suhurUcarias. There 
 were ten of them ; the three islands, Sicily, Corsica, and 
 Sardinia ; and the other seven upon the firm land of Italy : 
 and this (I take it) is plain in Rufinus ; for he living shortly 
 after the Njcene council, as he did, and being of Italy, as he 
 was, he might very well know the bounds of that patriarch's 
 jurisdiction as it was then practised ; "and he says expressly, 
 
 t Ed. Brerewood Of the jurisdiction u Apud Alexaiidriam, tit in urbe 
 
 and limits of the patriarchs in the time Roma, vetusta consuetude servetnr, ut 
 of the Nicenecouncil, ad. Qu. I. M.S. ille jEgypti, ut hie suburbicariarum 
 
 1.4 
 
152 Archbishop Laud agaimt 
 
 Sect. 25. " That, according to the old custom, the Roman patriarch^s 
 charge was confined within the Hmits of the suburbicarian 
 churches/'" To avoid the force of this testimony, ^ cardinal 
 Perron lays load upon Rufinus ; for he charges him with 
 passion, ignorance, and rashness : and one piece of his igno- 
 rance is, that he hath ill translated the canon of the council 
 of Nice. Now be that as it may, I neither do nor can ap- 
 prove his translation of that canon ; nor can it be easily 
 proved that he purposely intended a translation : all that I 
 urge is, that Rufinus, living in that time and place, was very 
 like well to know and understand the limits and bounds of 
 that patriarchate of Rome in which he lived. Secondly, here 
 is. That it had potentiorem, a more powerful principality than 
 other churches had. And that the protestants grant too ; 
 and that not only because the Roman prelate was online 
 primus, first in order and degree, which some one must be 
 to avoid confusion ; " ybut also because the Roman see had 
 won a great deal of credit, and gained a great deal of power 
 to itself in church affairs : because while the Greek^ yea, 
 and the African churches too, were turbulent and distracted 
 with many and dangerous opinions, the church of Rome all 
 that while, and a good while after Irenseus too, was more 
 calm and constant to the truth." Thirdly, here is a necessity 
 (say they) required, that every church, that is, the faithful 
 which are every where, agree with that church. But what ! 
 simply with that church whatever it do or believe 2 No, 
 nothing less : for Irenseus adds, " with that church in qua, in 
 which is conserved that tradition which was delivered by the 
 apostles.'" And God forbid but it should be necessary for all 
 churches and all the faithful to agree with that ancient apo- 
 stolic church in all those things in which it keeps to the 
 doctrine and discipline delivered by the apostles. In Irenseus 
 his time it kept these better than any other church, and by 
 this in part obtained potentiorem principalitatem, a greater 
 power than other churches, but not over all other churches. 
 And (as they understand Irenseus) a necessity lay upon all 
 
 ecclesianim solicitiulinem gerat. Rnfiii. se opinioiuim dissensionibiis tuiniiltua- 
 
 Eccles. Hist. lib. i. c. 6. rentiir, ha^c sedatior aliis, et niiniis ttir- 
 
 X Perron's Reply, lib. ii. c. 6. biilenta fuerit. Calvin. Instit. lib. iv. 
 
 y Quia cum orientales et Grwcai ec- c. 6. §. i6. 
 clesiae, et Africana; etiam, multis inter 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 153 
 
 other churches to agree with this ; but this necessity was laid Sect. ^5. 
 upon them by the " then integrity of the Christian faith there 
 professed, not by the univei'sality of the Roman jurisdiction now 
 challenged." And let Rome reduce itself to the observation 
 of tradition apostolic, to which it then held, and I will say as 
 Irenseus did, " That it will be then necessary for every church 
 and for the faithful every where to agree with it." Lastly, 
 let me observe too, that Irenreus made no doubt but that 
 Rome might fall away from apostolical tradition, as well as 
 other particular churches of great name have done. For he 
 does not say in qua servanda semjJer erit, sed in qua servata 
 est ; not, in which church the doctrine delivered from the 
 apostles shall ever be entirely kept, that had been home 
 indeed ; but in which, by God's grace and mercy, it was to 
 that time of Irena?us so kept and preserved. So we have 
 here, in Iren?eus his judgment, the church of Rome then entire, 
 but not infallible ; and endowed with a more powerful prin- 
 cipality than other churches, but not with an universal domi- 
 nion over all other churches, which is the thing in question. 
 
 XIV. — But to this place of Irenseus A. C. joins a reason A. C. p. 58. 
 of his own ; for he tells us the bishop of Rome is St. Peter''s 
 successor, and therefore to him we must have recourse. The 
 Fathers I deny not ascribe very much to St. Peter, but it is 
 to St. Peter in his own person ; and among them Epiphanius 
 is as free and as frequent in extolling St. Peter as any of 
 them, and yet did he never intend to give an absolute prin- 
 cipality to Rome in St. Peter's right. There is a noted place 
 in that Father, where his words are these : '• ^For the Lord 
 himself made St. Peter the first of the apostles a firm rock, 
 upon which the church of God is built, and the gates of hell 
 shall not prevail against it, &c. For in him the faith is made 
 firm every way who received the key of heaven, &c. : for in 
 him all the questions and subtilties of the faith are found."' 
 This is a great place at first sight too, and deserves a mar- 
 ginal note to call young readers' eyes to view it. And it hath 
 
 z Ipse aiitem Domiiuis constituit eum accepit clavem cfelonim, &c. In hoc 
 
 primum a])ost()l<)nun, petram firmain enim omnes quajstiones ac siibtilitates 
 
 super (juam ecclesia Dei spdificata est, fidei inveniuiitur. Epiphan. in Aiico- 
 
 et portae inferoruin non valeljunt adver- rato, edit. Paris. Lat. i ^(>4. fol. 497. 
 
 sus iilam, &c. Jiixta oninem enim A. edit, vero Graeco-Latin. torn. ii. 
 
 modum in ipso firmata est fides, qui p. 14. 
 
154 Archbishop Lmid arfainst 
 
 Sect. 25. this note in the old Latin edition at Paris, 1564: Petri 
 jyrincipatus, et prwstantia, Peter's principaHty and excellency. 
 This place, as mnch show as it makes for the Roman princi- 
 pality, I shall easily clear, and yet do no wrong, either to St. 
 Peter or the Roman church. For most manifest it is, that 
 the authority of St. Peter is ^ urged here to prove the God- 
 head of the Holy Ghost : and then follow the elogies given to 
 St. Peter, the better to set off and make good that authority ; 
 as that he was ^princeps apostolorum^ the prince of the apo- 
 stles, " and pronounced blessed by Christ ; because, as God 
 the Father revealed to him the Godhead of the Son, so did 
 he again the Godhead of the Holy Ghost." After this Epi- 
 phanius calls him " ^solidam petram, a solid rock, upon which 
 the church of God was founded, against which the gates of 
 hell should not prevail :"" and adds, " That the faith was 
 rooted and made firm in him ^ every way, in him who received 
 the key of heaven." And after this he gives the reason of 
 all ; " '^because in him," mark, I pray, it is still in Mm as he 
 was blessed by that revelation from God the Father, *St. 
 Matthew xvi., " were found all the Ae7TroAoy?;/xara, the very 
 niceties and exactness of the Christian faith." For he pro- 
 fessed the Godhead of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and 
 so omni moclo^ every point of faith was rooted in him ; and 
 this is the full meaning of that learned Father in this passage. 
 Now therefore, building the church upon St. Petei', in Epi- 
 phanius his sense, is not as if he and his successors were to 
 be monarchs over it for over; but it is the edifying and 
 establishing the church in the true faith of Christ by the 
 confession which St. Peter made. And so he expresses 
 himself elsewhere most plainly g ; " St. Peter," saith he, 
 " who was made to us indeed a solid rock firming the faith 
 of our Lord. On which (rock) the church is \y\\Ai jiixta omnem 
 modwn, every way. First, that he confessed Christ to be the 
 
 a T( '6ti iireipaffev. For there begins Domini. In qna (petra) a?iliticata est 
 
 the argument of E])iphanius. ecclesia juxta omneni mnduni. Primo, 
 
 1' 'O Kopvcpatdraros. fpinil confessus est Christnm esse Fihtim 
 
 c TV crrepiai' irtTpau. Dei vivi, et statim audivit, Super hanc 
 
 <1 Kara iravTa yap, &c. petrani soh'di« fidei cedijicabo ecclesiam 
 
 e 'Ej/ TovTif yap, &.C. meam — Etiani de Spiritii Sancto idem, 
 
 i I\latt. xvi. 17. &c. Epiphan. H2eres. hb. ii. 59. contra 
 
 g'Os yiyovev, &c. Qui factus est Catharos, tom. i. p. 500. edit. Grseco- 
 
 nobis revera sohda petra firmans lidem Lat. 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 155 
 
 Son of the living God, and by and by he heard, Ujyon this Sect. 25. 
 rock of sohd faith / ivill build my church : and the same con- 
 fession he made of the Holy Ghost." Thus was St. Peter 
 a solid rock upon which the church was founded omni modo^ 
 every way ; that is, the faith of the church was ^ confirmed 
 by him in every point. But that St. Peter was any rock or 
 foundation of the church, so as that he and his successors 
 must be relied on in all matters of faith, and govern the 
 church hke princes or monarchs, that Epiphanius never 
 thought of. And that he never did think so, I prove it thus : 
 for, beside this apparent meaning of his context, (as is here 
 expressed,) how could he possibly think of a supremacy due 
 to St. Peter s successor, that in most express terms, and that 
 'twice repeated, makes St. James the brother of our Lord, 
 and not St. Peter, succeed our Lord in the principality of the 
 church ? And Epiphanius was too full both of learning and 
 industry to speak contrary to himself in a point of this 
 moment. 
 
 XV. — Next, since A. 0. speeds no better with h-enseus, heA.C. p. 58. 
 will have it out of scripture. And he still tells us the bishop 
 of Rome is St. Peter's successor. Well ; suppose that. What 
 then 2 What ! why then he succeeded in all St. Peters 
 J' prerogatives which are ordinary and belonged to him as a 
 bishop, though not in the extraordinary which belonged to 
 him as an apostle ; for that is it which you all say ', but no 
 man proves. If this be so, yet then I must tell A. C, St. 
 Peter in his ordinary power was never made pastor of the 
 whole church: nay, in his extraordinary he had no "^more 
 powerful principality than the other apostles had. A "primacy 
 of order was never denied him by the protestants; and an 
 universal supremacy of power was never granted him by the 
 primitive Christians. Yea, but Christ promised the keys to 
 
 li rifpl Tov ayiov Xlviv fjLaTos o avrhs §. Respondeo pontiiicatum. 
 
 aatpaXiCeTai Ti/xas. Ibid. 1 Sect. 25. num. X. 
 
 i Ille ])nmus (speaking of St. James "' Rellarm. ibid, 
 tlie Lord's brotiier) episcopalem cathe- " The Fathers gave three preroga- 
 dram cepit, quiim ei ante ca'teros omnes tives to St. Peter — of authority, of 
 suum in terris thronum Doininus tradi- primacy, and of priiicipahty, but not 
 disset. Kpiphan. H;eres. Hb. iii. 78. of supremacy of power. Raynold con- 
 torn, ii. p. 10,^9. — Et fere siniihter, tom. tra Hart. cap. 5. divis. 3. And he 
 i. lib. i. H seres. 29. proves it at large. 
 
 k Bellarm. de Rom. Pont. hi), i. c. 9. 
 
156 Archbishop Laucl against 
 
 Sect. 25. St. Peter. <'True ; but so did he to Pall the rest of the apo- 
 stles, and to their successors as much as to his. So it is tibi 
 et illis, not tibi non illis, I give the keys to thee and them, 
 not to thee to exclude them ; unless any man will think 
 heaven-gates so easy that they might open and shut them 
 without the keys. And ^ St. Augustine is plain ; " If this 
 were said only to St. Peter, then the church hath no power 
 to do it ;" which God forbid ! The keys therefore were given 
 to St. Peter and the rest in a figure of the chuiTh, to whose 
 power and for whoso use they were given. But there is not 
 one key in all that bunch that can let in St. Peter s successor 
 to a more powerful principality universal than the successors 
 of the other apostles had. 
 A. C. p. 58. XVI. — Yea, but Christ prayed that St. Peter's faith might 
 not faiU. That is true ; and in that sense that Christ prayed 
 St. Peter s faith failed not ; that is, in application to his per- 
 son " for his persevei^ance in the faith," as ^St. Prosper ap- 
 plies it ; " which perseverance yet he must owe and acknow- 
 ledge to the grace of Christ's prayer for him, not to the 
 power and ability of his own freewill,"''' as 'St. Jerome tells 
 us. "Bellarmine likes not this, " because," saith he, " Christ 
 here obtained some special privilege for St. Peter ; whereas 
 perseverance in grace is a gift common to all the elect :" and 
 he is so far right. And the special grace which this prayer 
 of Christ obtained for St. Peter was, that he should not fall 
 into a final apostasy ; no, not when Satan had sifted him to 
 the bran, that he fell most horribly even into a threefold 
 denial of his Master, and that with a curse. And to recover 
 this and persevere was aliquid sjwciale, I trow, if any thing 
 ever were. But this will not down with Bellamiine ; no, 
 the ^aliquid speciale, the special thing here obtained, was, 
 
 o Matt. xvi. 18. potestate si voluisset, ut non deficeret 
 
 p Matt, xviii. 18, John XX. 22. fides ejus, &c. S. Hieron. adversus 
 
 <1 Si hoc Petro tantiim dictum est, Pelagianos, hb. ii. 
 
 non facit hoc ecclesia, &c. S.August. u Ahquid speciale. Bellarm. de Rom. 
 
 Tract. 50. in 8. Job. Pont. hb. iv. cap. 3. §. Secundo, quia 
 
 r Luke xxii. 32. sine. 
 
 s Deum dare nt in fide perseveretur. " Ut nee ipse ut pontifex doceret 
 
 S. Prosper, de Vocat. Gent. hb. i. unquani ahquid contra fidem, sive ut 
 
 cap. 24. in sede ejus inveuiretur qui doceret. 
 
 t Rogavi ut non deficeret, &c. Et Bellarm. de Rom. Pont. hb. iv. c. 3. §. 
 
 carte juxta vos in apostoh erat positum Alteram privilegium est. 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 157 
 
 saith he, " that neither St. Peter himself, nor any other that Sect. 25. 
 should sit in his seat, should teach any thing contrary to the 
 true faith."" That St. Peter after his recovery should preach 
 nothing either as apostle or bishop contrary to the faith, will 
 easily be granted him ; but that none of his successors should 
 do it, but be all infallible, that certainly never came within 
 the compass of Bogavi pro te, Petre, I have prayed for thee, 
 Peter. And Bellarmine''s proof of this is his just confuta- 
 tion ; for he proves this exposition of that text only by the 
 testimony of seven popes in their own cause, and then takes 
 a leap to Theophylact, who says nothing to the purpose. So 
 that upon the matter Bellarmine confesses there is not one 
 Father of the church disinteressed in the cause that under- 
 stands this text as Bellarmine doth, till you come down to 
 Theophylact. So the pope''s infallibility appeared to nobody 
 but the popes themselves for above a thousand years after 
 Christ; for so long it was before y Theophylact lived : and the 
 spite of it is, Theophylact could not see it neither, for the 
 most that Bellarmine makes him say is but this: " ^ Because 
 I account thee as chief of my disciples, confirm the rest ; for 
 this becomes thee, which art to be a rock and foundation of 
 the church after me.''' For this is personal too, and of St. 
 Peter, and that as he was an apostle : for otherwise than as 
 an apostle, he was not a rock or foundation of the church ; 
 no, not in a secondary sense. The special privilege therefore 
 which Christ prayed for was personal to St. Peter, and is 
 that which before I mentioned. And Bellarmine himself says, 
 '' That Christ ^ obtained by this prayer two privileges, espe- 
 cial ones for St. Peter : the one, that he should never quite 
 fall from the true faith, how strongly soever he were tempted ; 
 the other, that there should never be found any sitting in 
 his seat that should teach against it." Now for the first of 
 these, '^Bellarmine doubts it did not flow over to his suc- 
 cessors. Why then, it is true which I here say, that this was 
 
 y Theo])hylactus floruit circa amio a Iiiipetravit, et il<id. §. P>st igitur 
 
 Doni. 1072. tenia. 
 
 z Quia te haheo principein discijui- b Ex quibus ])rivilegiis primum for- 
 
 loriini, continna oeteros. Hoc enim tasse iioii iiiaiiavit ad posterns, at se- 
 
 decet te, qui post me ecclesiae petra es cnuduni sine duliio niaiiavit ad jiosteros 
 
 et fundanieiuuni. Kellarm. de Uoin. sive successores. Bellanii. ibid. §. Al- 
 
 Poiit. lib. iv. c. 3. §. Prifter hos. Ex teium privilegium. 
 Theophyl. in 21. S. Luc. 
 
158 Archbishop Laud against 
 
 Sect. 25. personal to St. Peter. But tlie second, he says, " out of all 
 doubt, passed over to his successors." Nay, that is not out 
 of all doubt neither. First, because many learned men have 
 challenged many popes for teaching heresy, and that is 
 against the true faith : and that which so many learned men 
 have affirmed is not out of all doubt ; or if it be, why does 
 Eellarmine take so much pains to confute and disprove them 
 as '^he doth? Secondly, because Christ obtained of his Father 
 every thing that he prayed for, if he prayed for it absolutely, 
 and not under a condition : '^Father, I hioin thou hearest me 
 always. Now Christ here prayed absolutely for St. Peter, 
 therefore whatsoever he asked for him was granted. There- 
 fore, if Christ intended his successors as well as himself, his 
 prayer was granted for his successors as well as for himself. 
 But then, if Bellarmine will tell us absolutely, as he doth, 
 "^That the whole gift obtained by this prayer for St. Peter 
 did belong to his successors," and then by and by after break 
 this gift into two parts, and call the first part into doubt 
 whether it belongs to his successors or no, he cannot say the 
 second part is out of all doubt ; for if there be reason of 
 doubting the one, there is as much reason of doubting the 
 other, since they stand both on the same foot, the validity 
 of Christ's prayer for St. Peter. 
 
 XVII. — Yea, but Christ charged St. Peter to govern and 
 feed his whole flock, St. John xxi. Nay, soft, it is but his 
 ^ sheep and his lambs, and that every apostle and every apo- 
 stle's successor hath Scharge to do, St. Matt, xxviii.; but over 
 the whole flock I find no one apostle or successor set. And 
 A. c. p. 58. it is a poor shift to say, as A, C. doth, " That the bishop of 
 Kome is set over the whole flock, because both over lambs 
 and sheep ;" for in every flock that is not of barren wethers 
 there are lambs and sheep, that is, 'Hveaker and stronger 
 
 c Bellarm. de Rom. Pont. lib. iv. li And this seems to me to allude to 
 
 cap. 8. that of iSt. Paul, i Cor. iii. 2. and lieh. 
 
 <l John xi. 42. V. I 2, smrie are fed with milk, and some 
 
 e Doiuun hoc loco Petro impetratum, icith stronger meat ; the lambs with 
 
 etiam ad successores jiertinet. iJellarni. milk, and tlie sheep with stronger meat. 
 
 de Rom. Pont. lib. iv. cap. 3. §. Quarto, But here A.C follows pojie Hildelirand 
 
 donmii hoc. close, who in the case of the emperor 
 
 f John xxi. 15, 16. then asked this <piestion : QuandoC'hri- 
 
 K Matt, xxviii. 19; and x. 16. the stus ecclesiam suam Petro commisit, et 
 
 same power and charge is given to dixit, Pasce ores meas, excej)itne reges ? 
 
 them all. Platin. in Vita Greg. VII. And certainly 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 159 
 
 Christians ; not people and pastors, subjects and governors, Sect. 25. 
 as A. C expounds it, to bring the necks of princes under 
 Roman pride : and it' kings be meant, yet then the command 
 is pasce, feed them ; but deponere or occidere, to depose or 
 kill them, is not pascere in any sense ; lanii id est, non pasto- 
 ris, that is the butcher's, not the shepherd's part : if a sheep 
 go astray never so far, it is not the shepherd's part to kill 
 him ; at least if he do, non pascit dam occidit, he doth not 
 certainly feed while he kills. 
 
 XVIII. — And for the close, "That the bishop of RomeA. C. p. 58. 
 shall never refuse to feed and govern the whole flock in such 
 sort, as that neither particular man nor church shall have 
 just cause, under pretence of reformation in manners or faith, 
 to make a separation from the whole church ;" by A. O.'s 
 favour, this is mere begging of the question. He says tlie 
 pope shall ever govern the whole church so as that there 
 shall be no just cause given of a separation. And that is the 
 very thing which the protestants charge upon him, namely, 
 that he hath governed, if not the whole, yet so much of the 
 churdi as he hath been able to bring under his power, so as 
 that he hath given too just cause of the present continued 
 separation. And as the corruptions in the doctrine of faith 
 in the church of Rome were the cause of the first separation, 
 so are they at this present day the cause why this separation 
 continues. And further, I for my part am clear of opinion, 
 that the errors in the doctrine of faith which are charofed 
 upon the whole church, at least so much of the whole as in 
 these parts of Europe hath been kept under the Roman juris- 
 diction, have had their original and continuance from this, 
 that so much of the universal church (which indeed they 
 account all) hath forgotten her own liberty, and submitted to 
 the Roman church and bishop, and so is in a manner forced 
 to embrace all the corruptions which the particular church of 
 Rome hath contracted upon itself; and being now not able 
 to free herself from the Roman jurisdiction, is made to con- 
 tinue also in all her corruptions. And for the protestants, 
 they have made no separation from the general church, pro- 
 perly so called, (for therein A. C. said well, the pope's A. c. p. sa 
 
 kings are not exempted from being fed of tlieir kingdoms by any churchmen, 
 by the church, but from being sjioiled tliat tliey are. 
 
160 Archbishop Laud against 
 
 Sect. 25,26. administration can give no cause to separate from that;) but 
 their separation is only from the church of Kome, and such 
 other churches as by adhering to her have hazarded them- 
 selves, and do now miscall themselves the whole catholic 
 church : nay, even here the protestants have not left the 
 church of Rome in her essence, but in her errors, not in the 
 things which constitute a church, but only in such abuses and 
 corruptions as work toward the dissolution of a church. 
 
 i,' . I also asked who ought to judge in this case : the 13. 
 said, a general council. 
 
 Sect. 26. 5i5. I. — And surely what greater or surer judgment you 
 can have, where sense of scripture is doubted, than a general 
 A. C. p. 59. council, I do not see, nor do you doubt. And A.C. grants 
 it to be " a most competent judge of all controversies of faith, 
 so that all pastors be gathered together, and in the name of 
 Christ, and pray unanimously for the promised assistance of 
 the Holy Ghost, and make great and diligent search and 
 examination of the scriptures and other grounds of faith, and 
 then decree what is to be held for divine truth ; for then," 
 saith he, "it is firm and infallible, or else thei'e is nothing 
 firm upon earth." As fair as this passage seems, and as 
 freely as I have granted that a generaj council is the best 
 judge on earth, where the sense of scripture is doubted, yet 
 even in this passage there are some things considerable. As, 
 first, when shall the church hope for such a general council, 
 in which all pastors shall be gathered together? There was 
 never any such general council yet, nor do I believe such can 
 be had ; so that is supposed in vain ; and you might have 
 learned this of ' Bellarmine, if you will not believe me. Next, 
 saith he, " If all these pastors pray unanimously for the 
 promised assistance of the Holy Ghost." Why, but if all 
 pastors cannot meet together, all cannot pray together, nor 
 all search the scriptures together, nor all upon that search 
 decree together : so that is supposed in vain too. Yea but, 
 thirdly, " If all that meet do pray unanimously" — What then I 
 all that meet are not simply all ; nor doth the Holy Ghost 
 come and give his assistance upon every prayer that is made 
 
 i Si omnes, nullum fuit hactenus tur deinceps futurum. Bellarm. i. de 
 concilium generale, iieque etiam vide- Concil. cap. 17. §. i. 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 
 
 161 
 
 unanimously, though by very many prelates or other faithful Sect. 26. 
 people met together, unless all other requisites, as well as 
 unanimity, to make their prayer to be heard and granted, 
 be observed by them : so that an unanimous prayer is not 
 adequately supposed, and therefore concludes not. But, 
 lastly, how far a general council, if all A. C.'s conditions be 
 observed, is firm and infallible, that shall be more fully dis- 
 cussed Jat after. In the mean time, these two words Jirm 
 and infallible are ill put together as synonymas: for there 
 are some things most infallible in themselves, which yet could 
 never get to be made firm among men ; and there are many 
 things made firm by lav,', both in churches and kingdoms, 
 which yet are not infallible in themselves : so to draw all 
 toorether, to settle controversies in the church, here is a visible 
 judge and -infallible, but not living, and that is the 1^ scripture 
 
 J Sect. 33. consid. J. 
 
 k And this was thought a sufficient 
 judge too, when Christians were as 
 huni1)le as learned. I am sure Optatus 
 thought so. Quserendi sunt judices. Si 
 Christiani de utraque parte dari non 
 possunt, quia studiis Veritas impeditur. 
 De foi-is quwrendus est judex. Si paga- 
 nus, non potest nosse Christiana secreta. 
 Si Juda?us, ininiicus est Christiani bap- 
 tisniatis. Ergo in terris de hac re nul- 
 hnn pote)-it reperiri judicium. De cwlo 
 quwrendus est judex. Sed ut quid pul- 
 samus ad ccehmi quum habenuis hie 
 evangelio ? Testamentum (inquam, quia 
 hoc loco recte possunt terrena ccelesti- 
 bus comparari) tale est, quod quivis 
 honiinuni habens niimerosos filios, his 
 quamdiu pater pr;esens est, ij)se imperat 
 singnlis; non est adhuc necessarium 
 testamentum ; sic et Christus pra-sens 
 in terris f'uit, (quamvis nee modo desit) 
 pro tempore quicquid necessarium erat, 
 apostolis imperavit. Sed quomodo ter- 
 renus pater dum se in confinio senserit 
 mortis, timens ne post mortem suam, 
 nipta pace litigent f'ratres, adhibitis tes- 
 tibus voluntatem suam de pectore mori- 
 turo, transfert in tabulas din duraturas. 
 Et si fuerit inter fratrcs contentio nata, 
 non itur ad tumulum, sed quseritur 
 testamentum ; et qui tumulo quiescit, 
 tacitus de tabulis loquitur. V'ivus, cujus 
 est testamentum, in cwlo est. Ergo vo- 
 luntas ejus, velut in testamento, sic in 
 evangelio inquiratur. Oj)tat. adv. Farm, 
 lib. v. 
 
 This pregnant place of Optatus, " That 
 
 the scripture is the judge of divine truth 
 whenever it is questioned," though Bald- 
 win dare not deny, yet he would fain 
 slide both by it, and by a parallel place 
 as full in S. August, in Psal. xxi. expo- 
 sitione 2, with this shift, that St. Au- 
 gustine in another place had rather use 
 the testimony of tradition, that is, the 
 testimony nunciipativi politic quam scrip- 
 ii testamenti, of the nuncupative rather 
 than the rvritten will of Christ. Bald- 
 win, in Optat. lib v. But this is a 
 mere shift. First, liecause it is pielitio 
 principii, the mere begging of the ques- 
 tion ; for we deny any testament of 
 Christ but that which is written : and 
 A. C. cannot shew it in any one Father 
 of the church that Christ ever left he- 
 hind him a mmcnj)ative obligatory will. 
 Secondly, because nothing is more plain 
 in these two Fathers, Optatus and St. 
 Augustine, than that both of them a])- 
 peal to the u-ritteii will, and make that 
 the judge without any exception, when 
 a matter of faith comes in question. 
 In Optatus the words are, Habemus in 
 evangelio, we have it in the gospel ; 
 and, In evangelio inquiratur, let it be 
 inquired in the gosjiel ; and Christ put 
 it in tabulas din duraturas, into written 
 and lasting instruments. In St. Au- 
 gustine the words are, " Our Father 
 did not die intestate," &c.: and, Tabula; 
 aperiantur, let his written instruments 
 be ojiened ; and, Legantur verba mor- 
 tui, let the words of him that died be 
 read : and again, Aperi, legamus, open 
 the will, and let us read ; and, Lega- 
 
 M 
 
6o. 
 
 K)2 Archhishop Laud apainst 
 
 Sect. 26. pronouncing by the church ; and there is a visible and a hving 
 judge, but not infalHble, and that is a general council, law- 
 fully called and so proceeding. But I know no formal con- 
 firmation of it needful (though A. C. h-enuire it,) but only 
 that after it is ended the whole church admit it, be it never 
 so tacitly. 
 A. C. p. 59, 11. — In the next place, A. 0. interposes new matter quite 
 out of the conference. And first, in case of distraction and 
 disunion in the church, he would know what is to be done 
 to reunite, when a general council (which is acknowledged 
 to be a fit judge) cannot be had by reason of manifold impe- 
 diments, or if being called, will not be of one mind. " Hath 
 Christ our Lord," saith he, " in this case provided no rule, 
 no judge, infallibly to determine controversies, and to procure 
 unity and certainty of belief? Indeed the protestants admit 
 no infallible means, rule, or judge, but only scripture, which 
 every man may interpret as he pleaseth, and so all shall be 
 uncertain." Truly, I must confess, thei'e are many impedi- 
 ments to hinder the calling of a general council. You know 
 in the ancient church there was '"hinderance enough, and 
 what hurt it wrought ; and afterward, though it were long 
 first, there was provision made for "frequent calling of coun- 
 
 mus, quid litigamus ? why do we strive ? else the general council is invalid, is one 
 
 let us read the will : and again, Aperi of the Roman novelties ; for this cannot 
 
 testanientum, lege, open the will, read, be shewed in an)' antiquity void of just 
 
 All which passages are most express exception. The truth is, the pope, as 
 
 and full for his ■written will, and not other patriarchs and great iiishops used 
 
 for any nuncupative will, as Baldwin to do, did give his assent to such coun- 
 
 would put upon us. And Hart, who cils as he approved ; but that is no cor- 
 
 takes the same way with Baldwin, is roboration of the council, as if it were 
 
 not able to make it out, as appears l)y invalid without it, but a declaration of 
 
 Dr. Reynolds, in his Conference witli his consenting with the rest. Sect. 33. 
 
 Hart, c. 8. divis. i. p 396, i^c. consid. 4. num. VI. 
 
 1 Sect. 28. num. I. And so plainly ni Ciuistianitas in diversas hajreses 
 
 St. Augustine, speaking of St. Cyprian's scissa est, quia non erat licentia episco- 
 
 error about rebaptization, &c., says, Illis pis in unum convenire, persecutione 
 
 temporibus antequam plenarii concilii sa^viente usqtie ad tempera Constantini, 
 
 sententia quid in hac re sequendum &c. Isidor. Prajfat. in Concil. ed. Venet. 
 
 esset, totius ccclesiie consensio confir- isS-;- 
 
 masset, Visum est ei cum, &c. De Ba])t. n Krequens generalium concihorum 
 cont. Donat. lib. i. c. 18. So here is celebratio est pni^cipua cultura agri Do- 
 first " sententia concilii ;" and then the miuici, &c. Et illorum neglectus erro- 
 contirmation f)f it is " totius ecclesia> res, luereses, et schismata disseminat. 
 consensio," the consent of the whole Ha;c pra>teritorum teraporum recordatio 
 church yielding unto it. And so Ger- et pra'sentium consideratio ante oculos 
 son, Concurrente universal! totius ecdc- nostros ponimt. Itaque sancimus, ut 
 sire consensu, &c. In declaratione veri- a modo concilia generalia celebrentur ; 
 tatera qu.T credendae sunt, &C. §. 4. For ita quod primum a fine hnjus concilii 
 this, That the pope must confirm it, or in quinquenniTun immediate sequens, 
 
Fhher the Jesuit. 163 
 
 oils, and yet no age since saw them called according to that Sect. 26. 
 provision in every circumstance : therefore impediments there 
 were enough, or else some declined them wilfully, though 
 there were no impediments. Nor will I deny but that when 
 they were called, there were as many "practices to disturb or 
 pervert the councils ; and these practices were able to keep 
 many councils from being all of one mind : but if being called 
 they will not be of one mind, I cannot help that ; though 
 that very not agreeing is a shrewd sign that the other spirit 
 hath a party there against the Holy Ghost. 
 
 III. — Now A.O. would know what is to be done for reuniting 
 of a church divided in doctrine of the faith, when this remedy 
 by a general council cannot be had : " Sure Christ our Lord,"' 
 saith he, " hath provided some rule, some judge, in such and 
 such like cases, to procure unity and certainty of belief."' I 
 believe so too ; for he hath left an infallible rule, the scrip- 
 ture ; and that, by the manifest places in it (which need no 
 dispute, no external judge), is I'able to settle unity and cer- 
 tainty of belief in necessaries to salvation : and in non neces- 
 sariis, in and about things not necessary, there ought not to 
 be a contention to a q separation. 
 
 IV. — And therefore A. C. does not well to make that a 
 crime, that the protestants admit no infallible rule but the 
 scripture only, or, as he (I doubt, not without some scorn) 
 terms it, beside only scripture; for what need is there of 
 another, since this is most infallible, and the same which the 
 ••ancient church of Christ admitted I And if it were sufficient 
 
 seruiuliim vero a fine illiiis in septen- P Non per difliciles nos Dens ad liea- 
 
 niiim, et deinceps de deceunio ill decen- tam vitam qufestiones vm-at, &c. In 
 
 nium perpetuo celebreiitiir, &c. Condi. a!is()!uto noliis et facili est a-ternitas ; 
 
 Constant. Sess. 39. — Et apnd Gerson. .Jesuin snscitatum a mortuis per Denin 
 
 Tom. p. 230. et Pet. de Aliaco Card, ci-edere, et ipsuin esse Doininnm conti- 
 
 Cameracen'sis libellnm olitnlit in Concil. teri, &c. S. Hilar, de Trin. lil). x. ad 
 
 Constant, de refonnatione ecclesiaj con- iiiiem. 
 
 tra ojiinioneni eornni qni putarunt con- <! Cyprianus et collega? ipsius creden- 
 
 cilia generalia minus necessaria esse, tes hnereticns et schismaticos baptismum 
 
 qnia omnia bene a patribus nostris or- non habere, sine bajitisnio rei'eptis, &c. 
 
 dinata sunt, &c. In fascic. Reriim ex- iis tanien communicare qnam separari 
 
 ])eteiidaruni, fol. 28. Et schisniatibns ab imitate maliieriiiit. S. Angiist. de 
 
 debet ecilesia cito per concilia generalia Bapt. cont. Doiiat. lib. ii. c. (> — Et bi 
 
 provider!, ut in primitiva ecclesia docu- non contaminabant Cyprianiini. Ibid, 
 
 enmt apostoli, ut Act. vi. et Act. xv. fine. 
 
 liiid. fol. 204. A. «■ Recensnit cnncta Sanctis scriptuns 
 
 o In concil. Arimineiisi imiltis pan- consona. Euseb. Hist. lib. v. c. 2c. de 
 
 corum frande deceptis, <!vc. S. August. Ireiufo. Regula jirincipalis de qua 
 
 contra Maximinnm, lib. iii. c. 14. Piiracletns agnitus. Tert. de JMonog. 
 
 M 2 
 
KA 
 
 Archhishrp Laud against 
 
 Sect. 26. for tlie .inciont church, to guide thcni and direct their coun- 
 cils, why should it be now held insufficient for us, at least 
 till a free general council may be had? And it hath both 
 the conditions which sBellarmine requires to a rule, namely, 
 that it be certain, and that it be known ; " for if it be not 
 certain, it is no rule, and if it be not known, it is no rule to us." 
 Now the ^liomanists dare not deny but this rule is certain; 
 and that it is sufficiently known in the manifest places of it, 
 and such as are necessary to salvation, none of the ancients 
 did ever deny ; so there is an infallible rule. 
 
 V. — Nor need there be such fear of a private spirit in 
 these manifest things, which being but read or heard, teach 
 themselves. Indeed, you Romanists had need of some other 
 judge, and he a propitious one, to crush the pope''s more 
 powerful principality out of Pasce oves, Feed my sheep. And 
 yet this must be the meaning, (if you will have it,) whether 
 " Gideon's fleece be wet or dry, that is, whether there be dew 
 enough in the text to water that sense or no. But, I pray, 
 when God hath left his church this infallible rule, what war- 
 rant have you to seek another? you have shewed us none 
 
 c. 2. And this is true, though tlie au- 
 thor spake it wlieu he was lapsed. — 
 Ipsas scri]>turas aj)prime teueus. S. Hie- 
 ron. ad MaiTeUum ad^'ers. Wontauuni, 
 toiu. ii. — Hoc quia de scripturis noii 
 liahet authoritatem, eadeiii facihtate 
 conteiniiitur, (jua probatur. S. Ilieron. 
 in S. Matth. c. xxiii. 
 
 Blauifestus est fidei la])sus, et hqui- 
 dum superbia' vitium, vel resi)uere ali- 
 quid eorum qua? scriptura liaiict, vel 
 indurere qnicquam quod scriptum uon 
 est. S. Basil. Serm. de Fide, torn. ii. 
 p. 154. edit. Basileae, 1565. 
 
 Contra iusurgentes hasreses sa^jie pug- 
 navi agrajdiis, veruni noii alienis a i»ia 
 secundum scripturani senteatia. Ibid. 
 
 And itefore Basil, Tertidliau: Adoro 
 scriptune plenitndinem, &c. si non est 
 scri])tum, timeat Ilermogenes. Yx illud 
 adjicientibus vel detrahentibus destina- 
 tum. Tertnll. adv. Ilerniog. c. 22. 
 
 And Paulinus jilainly calls it " regu- 
 hini dircctionis," epist. -23. 
 
 De liac reguia tria observanda sunt. 
 
 1. Reguia est, sed a teinj)ore quo scri])ta. 
 
 2. Kegula est, sed per ecclesiani ai)i)li- 
 canda, non per privatum spiritnm. 
 
 3. Reguia est, et mensurat omnia qua; 
 
 continet : continet autem omnia neces- 
 saria ad salutem, vel mediate vel imme- 
 diate. Et hoc tertium habet Biel. in 
 3. D. 25. q. unica. Conclus. 4. IM. And 
 this is all we say. Hooker, Eccles. Pol. 
 b. v. §. 22. 
 
 s Reguia catholiae fidei debet esse 
 certa et nota. Si certa non sit, non 
 erit reguia. Si nota non sit, non erit 
 reguia nobis. Bellarm. de V^erbo Dei, 
 lib. i. c. 2. §. 5. — Sed nihil est vel cer- 
 tius vel notius saci-a scriptura. Bellarm. 
 ibid. §. 6. — Tlierefbre the holy scripture 
 is the rule of catholic faith, both in it- 
 self and to us also ; for in things simply 
 necessary to salvation it is abundantly 
 known and manifest; as §. 16. num. V. 
 
 t Convenit inter nos et onuies omnino 
 hwreticos, verbiun Dei esse regulam 
 fidei, ex qua de dogmatibus judicandum 
 sit. Bellarm. Pra-fat. tom. i. fine. And 
 although there, perhaps, he includes 
 traditions, yet that was never proved 
 yet : neither indeed ca}i he include 
 traditions ; for he sjteaks of that woi'd 
 of (Jod upon which all heretics consent : 
 but concerning traditions, they all con- 
 sent not tliat they are a rule of faith ; 
 therefore he speaks not of tliem. 
 
 w Judg. vi. 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 1 Q5 
 
 yet, whatever you think you have. And I hope A. C. cannot Sect. 26. 
 think it follow.s, that Christ our Lord hath provided no rule 
 to determine necessary controversies, because he hath not 
 provided the rule which ho would have. 
 
 VI. — Besides, let there be such a living judge as A. C. 
 would have, and let the ^popc be he, yet that is not sufficient, 
 against the malice of the devil and impious men, to keep the 
 church at all times from renting, oven in the doctrine of 
 faith, or to solder the rents which are made; for yoportef esse 
 hcereses, heresies there will bo, and heresies properly there 
 cannot be but in doctrine of the faitli. And what will A. C. 
 in this case do ^ Will he send Christ our Lord to provide 
 another rule than the decision of the bishop of Rome, because 
 he can neither make unity nor certainty of belief? And (as 
 it is most apparent) he cannot do it de facto, so neither hath 
 he power from Christ over the whole church to do it ; nay, 
 out of all doubt, it is not the least reason why de facto he 
 hath so little success, because de Jure he hath no power given. 
 But since A. C. requires another judge besides the scripture, 
 and in cases when either the time is so difficult that a g-eneral 
 council cannot be called, or the council so set that they will 
 not agree, let us see how he proves it. 
 
 VIL — It is thus: "Every earthly kingdom," saith he, A. C. p. 60. 
 " when matters cannot be composed by a parliament, (which 
 cannot be called upon all occasions" — why doth he not add 
 here, 'and which being called will not always be of one mind," 
 as he did add it in case of the council ?) " hath, besides the 
 law-books, some living magistrates and judges, and, above all, 
 one visible king, the highest judge, who hath authority suffi- 
 cient to end all controversies, and settle unity in all temporal 
 affairs. And shall we think that Christ, the wisest Kino-, 
 hath provided in his kingdom the church, only the law-books 
 of tlie holy scripture, and no living visible judges, and 
 above all, one chief, so assisted by his Spirit as may suffice 
 to end all controversies for unity and certainty of faith? 
 which can never be, if every man may interpret holy scrip- 
 tuiv, the law-books, as he list." This is a very plausible 
 argument with the many ; but the foundation of it is but a 
 
 X For so he affirms, p. 58. y i Cor. xi. uj. 
 
 M 3 
 
166 Archhishop Laud against 
 
 Sect. 26. ^similitude; and if the similitude hold not in the main, the 
 argument is notliing ; and so I doubt it will prove here. I 
 will observe particulars as they lie in order. 
 
 VIII.— And first, he will have the whole militant church 
 (for of that we speak) a kingdom. But this is not certain ; 
 for they are no mean ones which think our Saviour Christ left 
 the church militant in the hands of the apostles and their 
 successors in an aristocratical, or rather a mixed government ; 
 and that the church is not ^monarchical otherwise than the 
 triumphant and militant make one body under Christ the 
 head. And in this sense indeed, and in this only, the church 
 is a most absolute kingdom ; and the very expressing of this 
 sense is a full answer to all the places of scripture and other 
 arguments brought by ^Bellarmine to prove that the church 
 is a monarchy. But the church being as large as the world, 
 Christ thought it fitter to govern it aristocratically by divers, 
 rather than by one viceroy. And I believe this is true : for 
 all the time of the first three hundred years and somewhat 
 better, it was governed aristocratically, if we will impartially 
 consider how the bishops of those times carried the whole 
 business of admitting any new consecrated bishops or others 
 to, or rejecting them from their communion. For I have 
 carefully examined this for the first six hundred years, even 
 to and within the time of St. Gregory the Great, '^who in 
 
 z Quffi subtilissime de hoc (Hs|mtari Rhegii, sive Alexandrine, siveTanis; ejiis- 
 possiuit, ita ut noil similitndinibus quae dem meriti, ejnsdem est et sacerdotii. 
 jilenimque f'alluiit sed relms i]>sis satis- S. Ilioroa. Epist. ad Evagrium — doubt- 
 fiat, &c. S. August. \\h. de Quant, less lie thought not of the Roman 
 Anini;e, cap. 32. W^hereujion the logi- l)isho])'s monarchy. For what bishop 
 eians tell us rightly, that this is a f'ul- is of the same merit or of the same de- 
 lacy, unless it be taken rediipUcative, gree in the priesthood with the pope, 
 i. e. de simililius quae similia sunt. And as things are now carried at Rome ? 
 Jience Aristotle himself, 2 Top. Loc. ,^7, Affirmamus etiam, Patribus et Gra^cis 
 says, ira.\iv iir\ tQv 6fj.oia>y, el 6/j.oiws et Latinis, ignotas esse voces de Petro 
 exei. Rursum in similibus, si similiter ant papa, monarcha et monarchia. 
 se habent. Nam quod in sujierioribns observaba- 
 
 a 'When Gerson writ his tract De nuis reperiri eas dictiones positas ])ro 
 
 Auferibilitate Papts, sure he thought ei)iscopo, et episco])atn, nihil hoc ad 
 
 the church might continue in a very rem facit. Isa. Casaub., Exercitatione 
 
 good being without a monarchical head : 15. ad Annales Eccles. Baron. §. 12. 
 
 therefore in his judgment the church p. 378. et §. 11. p. 360, diserte asserit 
 
 is not by any connuand or institution et probat ecclesias regimen aristocrati- 
 
 of Ciu'ist monarchical. Gerson. par. i. cum fuisse. 
 
 J). 154. '' P>ellarm. de Concil. lib. ii. c. 16. 
 
 When St. Ilierome wrote thus — l^bi- §. 1,2, 3. 
 
 cunijue inerit ejjiscopns, si\e Roma?, <" S. Greg. lib. ix. epist. 58. et lib. 
 
 sive Eugubii, sive Constautinopoli, sive xii. epist. 15. 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 167 
 
 the beginning of the seventh hundred year sent such letters Sect. 26. 
 to Augustine then archbishop of Canterbury, and to ''Quiri- 
 nus and other bishops in Ireland ; and I find that the literce 
 commu7iicatoria', which certified from one great patriarch to 
 another, who were fit or unfit to be admitted to their com- 
 nnniion, if tliey upon any occasion repaired to their sees, were 
 sent mutually, and as freely and in the same manner from 
 Rome to the other patriarchs as from them to it. Out of 
 which, I think, this will follow most directly, That the church 
 government then was aristocratical : for had the bishop of 
 Rome been then accounted sole monarch of the church, and 
 been put into the definition of the church, (as he is now by 
 ^Bellarmine,) all these communicatory letters should have 
 been directed from him to the rest, as whose admittance 
 ought to be a rule for all to communicate ; but not from 
 others to him, or at least not in that even, equal, and bro- 
 therly way as now they appear to be written. For it is no 
 way probable that the bishops of Rome, which even then 
 sought their own greatness too much, would have submitted 
 to the other patriarchs voluntarily, had not the very course 
 of the church put it upon them, 
 
 IX. — Besides, this is a great and undoubted rule given by 
 ^Optatus, That wheresoever there is a church, there the 
 " church is in the commonwealth, not the commonwealth in the 
 church : and so also the church was in the Roman empire." 
 Now from this ground I argue thus : If the church be within 
 the empire or other kingdom, it is impossible the government 
 of the church should be monarchical. For no emperor or 
 king will endure another king within his dominion that shall 
 be greater than himself, since the very enduring it makes him 
 that endures it upon the matter no monarch. Nor will it 
 disturb this argument, that two great kings in France and 
 Spain permit this. For he that is not blind may see, if he 
 will, of what little value the pope's power is in those kingdoms, 
 further than to serve their own turns of him, which they do 
 to their great advantage. Nay further, the ancient canons 
 and Fathers of the church seem to me plain for this ; for 
 
 <l S. Greg;, lit), ix. epist. 6i. f Non eiiim i-esj)iililica est in ecclesia: 
 
 e Bellarin. de Eccles. lib. iii. c. 2. §. sed ewlesia in repulilica, i. e. in inij)erio 
 Nostra autem. Romano. Optat. lib. iii. 
 
 M 4 
 
168 Archbishop Laud against 
 
 Sect. 26. the S council of Antioch submits ecclesiastical causes to the 
 bishops ; and what was done amiss by a bishop was corri- 
 gible by a'l synod of bishops, but this with the" metropolitan; 
 and in case these did not agree, the'^ metropolitan might call 
 in other bishops out of the neighbouring provinces ; and if 
 things settled not this way, a general council ('under the 
 scripture, and directed by it) was the highest remedy. And 
 "^St. Cyprian, even to pope Cornelius himself, says plainly, 
 " that to every bishop is ascribed a portion of the flock for him 
 to govern ;" and so not all committed to one : in all this the 
 government of the church seems plainly aristocratical. And 
 if all other arguments fail, we have one left from Bellarmine, 
 who opposes it as much as any, "twice for failing; and yet 
 where he goes to exclude secular princes from church-govern- 
 ment, oall his quotations and all his proofs run upon this 
 head, to shew that the government of the church was ever in 
 the bishops. AVhat saysP A. C. now to the confession of this 
 great adversary, and in this great point, extorted from him 
 by force of truth I Now if this be true, then the whole foun- 
 dation of this argument is gone ; the church militant is no 
 kingdom, and therefore not to be compared or judged by one : 
 the resemblance will not hold. 
 
 X. — Next, suppose it a kingdom, yet the church militant 
 remaining one is spread in many earthly kingdoms, and can- 
 not well be oi'dered like anyone particular q kingdom; and 
 
 S Concil. Antiocli. c. 9. p. 507. gotia etiam majora omnium Christiano- 
 
 li Concil. Nic. i. c. 5. et Antioch, rum. Turn quia minus niahini est, ut 
 
 c. 1 2. populus partialis et parvus iuticiatur ab 
 
 i Concil. Nic. i. c. 4. et Antioch. uno episcopo, quam ut totus, vel fere 
 
 Can. 9. totus populus Christianus inficiatur ab 
 
 ^ Concil. Antioch. c. 14. uno capite, quod omnibus prwsit, Oc- 
 
 1 Sed pr;ei)oniturscriptura. S.August, cam. Dial. Tract, i. lib. ii. p. 3. c. 30. 
 
 de Bai)t. cout. Donat. lib. ii. c. 3. ad 8. And besides tliis of Occam, to that 
 
 '" Nam cum statutum sit omnibus common argument, that monarchical 
 
 nobis, &c. et singulis pastoribus poitio government is the best, and therefore 
 
 gregis, &c. S. Cypi"- hb. i. ep. 3. undoubtedly that which Christ insti- 
 
 " Bellarm. de Iloni. Pont. lib. i. c. 8. tuted for his church, it is sufficient to 
 
 et de Concil. lib. ii. c. 16. answer, That a monarchy is the best 
 
 liellarm. de Rom. Pont. lib. i. c. 7. form of government in one city or coun- 
 P A. C. p. 64, 65. try, Arist. Moral, lib. viii. c. 10; Imt 
 
 1 Licet sit expediens quod uni populo it follows not that it is the best in re- 
 partiali fideli pra?sit umis episcopus ; spect of the whole world, where the 
 non expedit tamen quod toti populo parts are so remote and the dispositions 
 fideli praisit unus solus. Turn quia of men so various. And therefore Bel- 
 oiniiia negotia imius jiopuli ])artialis larmine himself confesses, Monarchiam 
 potest sustincre unus solus : nullus aristocratiaj et democrati;e admixtam 
 autLin unus potest sustiuere onniia ne- utiliorem esse in hac vita, quam simplex 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 1G9 
 
 therefore, though in one particular kingdom there may be Sect. 26. 
 many visible judges and one supreme, yet it follows not that 
 in the universal militant church there must be one supreme ; 
 for how will he enter to execute his office, if the kings of 
 those kingdoms will not give leave ? 
 
 XL— Now here, though A. C. expresses himself no further, 
 yet I well know what he and his fellows would be at ; they 
 would not be troubled to ask leave of any several kings in 
 their several dominions. No ; they would have one emperor 
 over all the kings, as well as one pope over all the bishops. 
 And then you know ^who told us of two great lights to go- 
 vern the world, the sun and the moon, that is, the pope and 
 the emperor. At the first it began with more modesty, the 
 emperor and the pope ; and that was somewhat tolerable : 
 for sSt. Augustine tells us, " That the militant church is 
 often in scripture called the moon, both for the many changes 
 it hath, and for its obscurity in many times of its peregrina- 
 tion;" and he tells us too, that if we will understand this 
 place of scripture in a spiritual sense, 'our Saviour Christ is 
 the sun, and the militant church as being full of changes in 
 her estate, the moon. But now it must be a triumphant church 
 here, militant no longer ; the pope must be the sun, and the 
 emperor but the moon : and lest Innocent's own power should 
 not be able to make good his decretal, " Gasper Schioppius 
 doth not only avow the allusion or interpretation, but is 
 pleased to express many circumstances in which he would fain 
 make the world believe the resemblance holds. And lest any 
 man should not know how much the pope is made greater 
 than the emperor by this comparison, the '^ Gloss furnishes 
 us with that too, and tells us, that by this it appears, " that 
 
 monarchia est. De Rom. Pont. lib. i. num. Decret. de JMajoritate et Olie- 
 
 C. 3. §. I. dientia, lib. i. Tit. 33. cap. solita?. 
 
 r In the first gloss ascribed to Isidore s Ecclesia militans sa'jie in scripturis 
 
 in Gen. i. 16. it is Per solera intelligi- dicitur hina, propter mutabilitatem, &c. 
 
 tur regnum ; per lunam, sacerdotium. S. August. Epist. 119. c. 6. 
 But Innocent the Third, almost six ' Intelligimus spiritualiter ecclesiain, 
 
 hundred years after Isidore's death, per- &c. Et hie quis est sol, nisi sol justi- 
 
 verts both text and gloss, thus : Ad tiiP .-' &.C. S. August, in Psal. ciii. 
 firmamentum cwli, i. e. universalis ec- u Gasp. Schiop. L. dicto Ecclesias- 
 
 clesiaj, fecit Deus duo magna luminaria, ticus, c. 145. 
 
 hoc est, duas instituit potestates, pon- x Igitur cum terra sit septies major 
 tificalem, et regalem, &c. Ut quanta luna, sol antem octies major terra, re- 
 inter solem et lunam, tanta inter pon- stat ergo ut pontificalis dignitas qua- 
 tifices et reges differentia cognoscatur. dragesies septies sit major regali dig- 
 Epist. ad Imperat. Coiistantinopolita- nitate. Gloss in Decret. prsedict. Where . 
 
170 Archbishop Laud against 
 
 Sect. 26. since the earth is seven times greater than the moon and 
 the sun eight times greater than the earth, it must needs 
 follow that the pope's power is forty-seven times greater than 
 the emperor's :" I like him well, he will make odds enough. 
 But what, doth Innocent the Third give no reason of this his 
 decretal? Yes. And it is, saith he, " y because the sun, 
 which rules in the day, that is, in spiritual things, is greater 
 than the moon, which rules but in the night, and in carnal 
 things." But is it possible that Innocentius the Third, being 
 so wise and so able as ^tliat " nothing which he did, or com- 
 mended, or disproved in all his life, should after his death be 
 thought fit to be changed," could think that such an allusion 
 of spiritual things to the day which the sun governs, and 
 worldly business to the night which the moon governs, should 
 carry weight enough with it to depress imperial power lower 
 than God hath made it 'I Out of doubt he could not ; for he 
 well knew that onmis anima, every soul was to be subject to 
 the higher powers, Rom. xiii. ; and the ""^higher power there 
 mentioned is the temporal : and the ^ ancient Fathers come 
 in with a full consent, that omnis aniina, every soul, compre- 
 hends there all without any exception ; all spiritual men even 
 to the highest bishop, and in spiritual causes too, so the 
 foundations of faith and good manners be not shaken ; and 
 where they are shaken there ought to be prayer and patience, 
 
 first the Gloss is out in his Latin. He et ipse textus suhindicat, &c. Sahiieron, 
 
 might have said (7(<«r/m7?>5, for 7?<rtrfrff- Disput. 4. in Kom. xiii. §. Porro per 
 
 gesles is no word. Next, he is out in potestatem. 
 
 his arithmetic ; for eight times seven ^ n«rrj tuvtu SiaraTTerai, Kal ifpeyrn, 
 
 makes not forty-seven, but fifty-six : &c. Omnibus ista inijierantur, et sacer. 
 
 and then he is much to blame for dotibus et monachis, &c. Et postea : 
 
 drawing down the pope's ])ower from ]<]tiamsi apostohis sis, si evangelista, si 
 
 fifty-six to forty-seven. And lastly, propheta, sive quiscpiis tandem fueris. 
 
 this allusion hath no ground of truth S. Clirysost. Hom. 23. in Kom — Sive 
 
 at all : for the emperor being solo Deo est sacerdos, sive antistes, &c. Theo- 
 
 7ninor (Tertul. ad Scap.) cannot be a doret. in Rom. xiii. — Si omnis anima, 
 
 moon to any other sun. et vestra. Quis vos excipit ab univer- 
 
 y Sed illii potestas, qua? pneest die- sitate?&c. Ipsi sunt ((ui vobis dicere 
 
 bus, i. e. in spirituahbns, major est; solent, servate vestra> sedis honorem, 
 
 quae vero cariialibus, minor. Innocent. &c. Sed Christns aliter et jussit, et 
 
 III. ubi supra. gessit, <S:c. S. Bern. Epist. 42. ad 
 
 z Ut post ejus mortem, nihil eorum Henricum Senonensem archiei)iscopiun. 
 
 qua? in hac vita egerit, laudaverit, aut Et Theophylact. in Rom. xiii., wliere 
 
 improbaverit, immutatum sit. Platiua it is very observable that Theophylact 
 
 in vita ejus. lived in the time of pope Gregory the 
 
 " Roni. xiii. i. Seventh, and St. Bernard after it, and 
 
 Ij Patres veteres, et pra'ci])ue August, yet this truth obtained then ; and this 
 
 Epist. 54 Apostolum interj)retantur was about the year 1 1 30. 
 
 de potestate secular! tantum loqui, quod 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 171 
 
 there ought not to be opposition by force. Nay, he knew Sect. 26. 
 well that '^ emperors and kings are custodes utriusque tahulce, 
 they to whom the custody and preservation of both tables of 
 the law for worship to God and duty to man are committed ; 
 that a book of the law was by God's own command in Moses 
 his time to be given the king'^ ; that the kings under that 
 law, but still according to it, did proceed to necessary reform- 
 ations in church businesses, and therein conunanded the 
 very priests themselves, as appears in the acts of ^'Hezekiah 
 and g;Josiah, who yet were never censured to this day for 
 usurping the high priest's office. Nay, he knew full well that 
 the greatest emperors for the church's honour, Theodosius 
 the Elder, and Justinian, and Charles the Great, and divers 
 others, did not only meddle now and then, but did enact laws 
 to the great settlement and increase of religion in their seve- 
 ral times. But then if this could not be the reason why 
 Innocentius made this strange allusion, what was I Why truly 
 I will tell you. The pope was now grown to a great and a 
 firm height ; ^ Gregory the Seventh had set the popedom 
 upon a broad bottom before this Innocent's time: so that 
 now it is the less wonder if he make so bold with the emperor 
 as to depress him as low as the moon, upon no better ground 
 than a groundless resemblance ; but beside this prime reason, 
 there are divers other which may easily be drawn out of the 
 same resemblance. For since Innocentius his main aim was 
 to publish the pope's greatness over kings and emperors, 
 
 d An forte de relij^ione fas non est priiiife et secuiida? tabulae, cjiiod ad dis- 
 
 ut dicat imi)erator, vel tiiios miserit im- ciplinam attinet. Confessio Saxonica, §. 
 
 Iterator ? Cur ergo ad imi)eratorem 23. et Gerardus, liocorum torn. vi. c. 6. 
 
 vestri venere legati ? Cur enim fece- §. 5. membro i, probat ex Dent, 
 
 runt causa; sua; judicem, non secuturi xvii. 18. 
 quod ille judicaret ? &c. S.August. e Dent. xvii. 18. f 2 Chron. xxix. 4. 
 
 cont. Epist. Parmen. lib. i. c. 9 Et g 4 Reg. xxiii. 2. 
 
 qua-stio fuit, an jtertineret ad impera- h Hie maximus pontifex totius eccle- 
 
 torem adversus eos ali(|uid statuere qui siasticw libertatis unicus assertor. O- 
 
 liravainreligionesectantur Ibid — Nor nuj.h. in Plat in Greg. VII. For taking 
 
 can this be said to be usurpation in the occasion by the war which Henry the 
 
 emperor. Nam S. August, alibi sic, Ad Fourth had with the Saxons and their 
 
 imperatoris curam, dequa rationem Deo neighbom-s, and the complaint oi the 
 
 redditunis est, res ilia maxime pertine- Saxons made to the pope, (of which 
 
 bat. S. August. Epist. 162. et Epist. Platina in the life of Gregory the Se- 
 
 50 Quis mente sobrius regibus dicat, venth,) the pope, wise enough for his 
 
 Nolite curare in regno vestro a quo own advantages, sought not only to free 
 
 teneatur, vel ojiiiugnetur ecclesia Do- himself from the emperor, but to make 
 
 mini vestri ? iScc. Antiquitas recte dixit, the emperor subject to him; and for 
 
 IMagistratus est custos legis, scilicet this the history is plain enough. 
 
172 Archbishop Laud against 
 
 Sect. 26. why doth he not tell us, that the pope is as the sun, and 
 the emperor as the moon ? Because as the moon borrows all 
 her light from the sun, so the emperor borrows all his true 
 light from the pope ; or because as the moon still increases 
 in light so long as she follows the sun, but so soon as ever 
 she steps before the sun she wanes presently, and her light 
 decreases ; so the emperor, so long as he is content to follow 
 the pope, and do all that he would have him, his light and 
 his power increase ; but if he do but offer to step before 
 (tliough that be his proper place) then his light and honour 
 and power and all decrease. And this pope Gregoi-y the 
 Seventh made too good upon the emperor Henry the Fourth ; 
 and pope Adrian the Fourth, and Alexander the Third, 
 and Lucius the Third, with some others, upon Frederick Bar- 
 barossa. And some other cmpei'ors were alike served where 
 they did not submit ; and I hope no man will blame the 
 pope's holiness for this : for if the emperors kept the popes 
 under for divers years together, whereas 'Bellarmine tells us 
 it was against all right they should do so, the pope being 
 never rightfully subject unto them, I hope the pope having 
 now got power enough may keep the emperors under, and not 
 suffer them any more to step before the sun, lest like moons 
 as they are, they lose all their light : or because as the moon 
 is but vicaria soils, the vicar or substitute of the sun, as '•^ Philo 
 tells us ; so the emperor, at least in all spiritual causes, is but 
 the pope's substitute, and that for the night, that his holiness 
 may sleep the quieter on the other side of the sphere : or 
 lastly (if you will abuse the scripture, as you too often do, and 
 as Innocentius did in the decretal very grossly) you may say, 
 it is because the woman, which all grant represented the 
 church, lis clothed with the sun, that is, with the glorious 
 rays of the pope, and had the moon, that is, the "' emperor, 
 
 i Papa, utpote regis regiirn vicaritis, lib. v. c. 7. §. Quod si t'liiistiani. Now 
 
 minquam erat de jure siibditus imjiera- this is a most lewd iintnitli, as appears 
 
 toribus terrenis, sed quia turn potestas in Tertiilliaii, who lived about tlie year 
 
 ejus non erat nota: — et quia viribus 200 under Severns. And the Chris- 
 
 temporalibus destitutus erat, vellet, iiol- tians then had strength enough against 
 
 let, subjectus esse cogebatur. Bellarni. the emperor, had they had right eiiougli 
 
 in Apologia, c. 15. Respons. ad ]\Ien- with it. 
 
 dacium 10. And Bellarmine is at the k L. de IMonar. 1 Rev. xii. i. 
 
 same argument for dej)Gsing of kings m Sic enim Alexander Tci-tius collum 
 
 too : Quia deerant vires temporales Frederici Primi i)ede com])rimeliat. Et 
 
 Christianis. Bellarm. de Rom. Pont, dixit, Scriptum est, Super aspidem el 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 173 
 
 under her feet ; for this is as good, as literal, as proper an Sect. 26. 
 interpretation of these words as that of Innocentius is of the 
 words Gen. i., God made two great Uphfs ,• the greater light to 
 rule the dai/, and the less to rule the night 'K Thus he or you 
 ma}' give your wits leave to play if you will, for the pope''s 
 decretal is a mere fancy. But the true reason indeed why 
 Innocentius made it was that above mentioned. He was 
 now in that greatness, that he thought he might pass any 
 thing upon the Christian world that pleased him ; and was 
 therefore resolved to brins; it into the body of the canon, that 
 aftertimes might have a law to legitimate and make good 
 their predecessors'' usurpation over emperors and kings ; and 
 rather than fail of this, he would not spare the abusing of 
 scripture itself: where by the way, dares A. C. say this pope 
 did not err in cathedra, when he was so dazzled between the 
 sun and the moon, that he wanted light in the midst of it to 
 expound scripture ? Well, I would have the Jesuits leave 
 their practising, and remember, first, that one emperor will 
 not always be able to establish and preserve one only uniform 
 practice and exercise of religion ; secondly, that supposing 
 he both can and will so do, yet the Jesuits cannot be certain 
 that that one uniform exercise of religion shall be the Roman 
 catholic ; and thirdly, that as there is a body of earth, a 
 woi'ld of confusion to eclipse their moon the emperor, so in 
 the same way, and by like interposition, the moon, when it is 
 grown too near in conjunction, may eclipse their sun the pope. 
 And there is no great doubt but he will, considering what 
 some great kings make of the pope's power at this day when 
 it pleases them. 
 
 XII. — And since we are in this comparison between the 
 sun and the moon, give me leave a little further to examine 
 who A. C. and his fellow Jesuits with some others would 
 have to be this one emperor. I am not willing to meddle 
 with any the secret designs of foreign states, but if they will 
 express their designs in print, or publish them by great and 
 full authority, I hope then it shall be neither unlawful nor 
 unfit for me, either to take notice or to make use of them. 
 AVliy then you may be pleased to know, they would have 
 
 basilisciun, &c. Jo. Naiiclenis, C'hron. n Gen. i. i6. 
 Generatione 40. circa an. 1170. 
 
174 ArcJihishop Land agamst 
 
 Sect. 26. another translation of the empire from Germany to Spain ; 
 they think behke this emperor's Hne, though in the same 
 house, is not catliohe enough : and if you ask me how I know 
 this secret, I will not take it up upon any common report, 
 though I well know what that says ; but I will tell you how 
 I know it. Somewhat above four hundred years after Inno- 
 centius made his comment upon the two great lights, the sun 
 and the moon, the pope and the emperor, "a Spanish friar 
 follows the same resemblance between the monarchies of 
 Rome and Spain, in a tract of his intitled, " The Agreement 
 of the two Catholic Monarchies,"" and printed in Spanish in 
 Madrid, anno 1612. In the frontispiece or titlepage of this 
 book there are set out two scutcheons, the one bearing the 
 cross keys of Home, the other the arms of Castile and Leon, 
 both joined together with this motto ; In vinculo 2)acis, in the 
 bond of peace. On the one side of this there is a portraiture 
 resembling Rome, with the sun shining over it, and darting 
 his beams on St. Petcr''s keys, with this inscription : vLumi- 
 nare majus, the greater light, that it may govern the city 
 (that is, Rome) and the whole world ; and on the other side 
 there is another image designing Spain, with the moon shin- 
 ing over that, and spreading forth its rays upon the Spanish 
 scutcheon, with this impress : ^ Lmmnare minus, the less light, 
 that it may be subject to the city (of Rome he means) and 
 so be lord to govern the whole world besides ; and over all 
 this in the top of the titlepage, there is printed in capital 
 letters, Fecit Deus duo hmiinaria magna, God made two great 
 lights. There follows after in this author a discovery at 
 large of this blazoning of these arms, but this is the sub- 
 stance of it, and abundantly enough to shew what is aimed 
 at, by whom and for whom. And this book was not stolen 
 out without the will and consent of the state ; for it hath 
 printed before it all manner of license that a book can well 
 have : for it hath the approbation of Father Pedro de Buyza, 
 of the company of the Jesuits ; of John de Arcediano, pro- 
 vincial of the Dominicans ; of Diego Granero, the licenser 
 
 o .John de Piiente, La couvenieutia leyes del miiiulo. 
 de las dos monarquias catolicas la de la P Liiminare majus, ut prresit urhi et 
 
 iglesia Romana, y la del iiiii>erio Espa- orbi. 
 
 niol, y defeusa de la precedentia de los 1 Luminare minus, ut sid)datur urbi, 
 
 reyes catolicos de Espania a todos los et dominetur orbi. 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 175 
 
 appointed for the supreme council of the inquisition ; and Sect. 26. 
 some of these revised this book by >' order from the lords of 
 that council : and last of all the ^kiug's privilege is to it, 
 with high commendation of the work. But the Spaniards 
 had need look to it for all this, lest the French deceive them : 
 for now lately Friar Campanella hath set out an eclogue 
 upon the birth of the dolphin, and that permissu superiomm, 
 by license from his superiors ; in which he says expressly, 
 " 'That all princes are now more afraid of France than ever, 
 for that there is provided for it regnum universale, the univer- 
 sal kingdom or monarchy." 
 
 XIII. — But it is time to return; for A. 0. in this passage A. C. p. 60. 
 hath been very careful to tell us of a parliament, and of living 
 magistrates and judges besides the law-books. Thirdly, there- 
 fore the church of England (God be thanked) thrives happily 
 under a gracious prince, and well understands that a parlia- 
 ment cannot be called at all times ; and that there ai-e visible 
 judges besides the law-books, and one supreme (long may he 
 be, and be happy) to settle all temporal differences (which 
 certainly he miglit much better perform if his kingdoms were 
 well rid of A. C. and his fellows.) And she believes too, that 
 our Saviour Christ hath left in his cliurch, besides his law- 
 book the scripture, visible magistrates and judges, that is, 
 archbishops and bishops, under a gracious king, to govern 
 both for truth and peace according to the scripture, and her 
 own canons and constitutions, as also those of the catholic 
 church which cross not the scripture and the just laws of the 
 realm. "But she doth not believe there is any necessity to 
 have one pope or bishop over the whole Christian world, 
 more than to have one emperor over the whole world ; which 
 were it possible, she cannot think fit : nor are any of these 
 
 ^ Por ortleii de los seuiores del con- mini universale. F. Tho. Cainpanellse 
 
 seio supremo. Ecloga in Principis Galliarnm Delphini 
 
 s Por mandado del rey nuestro se- nativitatem, cum Annot. Descrip. Parl- 
 
 nior. siis, ifi^Q. Cum permissu superionim. 
 
 t Quuni Gallia alat 20,000,000 liomi- u Non esse necesse, ut sub t'lu-isto 
 
 num, ex singulis centenis sumendo sit unus rector totius ecclesia', sed suffi- 
 
 umnn colliget 200,000 strenuorum inili- cit rjuod sint jilures regentes diversas 
 
 turn stipendiatorum, conuuode, perpe- provincias, sicut sunt phires reges gu- 
 
 tuoque. Proptereaomnes terne principes l)ei'nantes plura regna. Ocliam. Dial, 
 
 inetuunt nunc magis a Gallia, quam lib. 2. Tract. 1. p. i. c. 30. ad i. 
 unquam ab aliis ; paratur enim illi reg- 
 
176 Archbishop Laud against 
 
 Sect. 26. intermediate judges, or that one which you would have 
 supreme, infalhble. 
 A. C. p. 60. XIV. — But since a kingdom and a parhament please A. C 
 so well to pattern the church Ijy, I will follow him in the 
 way he goes, and be bold to put him in mind, that in some 
 kingdoms there are divers businesses of greatest consequence, 
 which cannot be finally and bindingly ordered but in and by 
 parliament ; and particularly the statute-laws, which must 
 bind all the subjects, cannot be made and ratified but there. 
 Therefore according to A. C.'s own argument, there will be 
 some businesses also found, (is not the settling of the divisions 
 of Christendom one of them ?) which can never be well settled 
 but in a ^general council : and particularly the making of 
 canons, which must bind all particular Christians and churches, 
 cannot be concluded and established but there. And again, 
 as the supreme magistrate in the state civil may not abrogate 
 the laws made in parliament, though he may dispense with 
 the sanction or penalty of the law quoad hie et nunc, as the 
 lawyers speak ; so in the ecclesiastical body no bishop, no 
 not the pope, (where his supremacy is admitted,) hath power 
 to '^ disannul or violate the true and fundamental decrees of 
 a general council, though he may perhaps dispense in some 
 cases with some decrees. By all which it appears, though 
 somewhat may be done by the bishops and govei'nors of the 
 church, to preserve the unity and certainty of faith, and to 
 keep the chui'ch from renting, or for uniting it when it is 
 rent ; yet that in the ordinary way which the church hath 
 hitherto kept, some things there are, and upon great emergent 
 occasions may be, which can have no other help than a lawful, 
 free, and well composed general council : and when that cannot 
 be had, the church must pray that it may, and expect till it 
 may ; or else reform itself 2^<^^' partes, by national or provin- 
 
 V Propter defectum concilioniin gene- niata, who says every thing tliat may 
 
 ralinni totius ccclesiw, (juai sola aiidet he said for the pope's sui)remacy, yet 
 
 iiitrepide corrigere omnes, ea mala (juiB dares not say, Papam ])0sse revocare et 
 
 universalem tangiint ecclesiam, maiien- tollere omnia statnta generaliiim con- 
 
 tia dill incorrecta crescunt, &c. Ger- ciliorum, sed aliqua tantum. Jo. de 
 
 son. Declarat. Defectuiun Virorum Turrecr. Sunimw de Ecclesia, lib. iii. 
 
 Ecclesiasticorum, torn. i. ]>. 209. c. 55. Et postea : Papa non potest re- 
 
 X Sunt enim indissolui)ilia decreta, vocare decreta primorum quatuor con- 
 
 quibus reverentia debita est. Prosper, ciliorum, quia non sunt nisi declarativa 
 
 cont. CoUatorem, c. i. And Turrecre- articulorum fidei. Ibid. c. 57. ad 2. 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 177 
 
 cial synods, (as hath been said ybefore.) And in the mean Sect. 26,27. 
 time it little beseems A. C. or any Christian, to check at the 
 wisdom of ^ Christ, if he have not taken the way they think 
 fitting to settle church differences ; or if, for the chnrcirs 
 sin, or trial, the way of composing them bo left more un- 
 certain than they would have it, that they uiMch are apiyromcl 
 may he known, 1 Cor. xi. 19. But the Jesuit had told me be- / 
 
 fore, that a general council had adjudged these things already. / / 
 For so he says. /•■'' 
 
 Jf . I told him, that a general council, to wit, of Trent, had 
 already judged, not the Roman church, but the prc- 
 testants, to hold erroi's. That (saith the i;.) was not a 
 lawful council. 
 
 53. T. — It is true, that you re]ilied for the council of Trent, gect. 27. 
 And my answer was, not only. That the council was not legal 
 in the necessary conditions to be observed in a general coun- 
 cil, but also. That it was no general council : which, again, 
 you are content to omit. Consider it well : first. Is that 
 council legal, the abettors whereof maintain publicly that it 
 is lawful for them to conclude any controversy, and make it be 
 dejide, and so in your judgment fundamental, though it have 
 not, I do not say now the written word of God for warrant, 
 either in express letter or necessary sense and deduction, (as 
 all unerring councils have had, and as all must have that will 
 not err,) but not so much as ^probable testimony from it; 
 nay, quite extra, without the scripture? Nay, secondly, Is 
 that council ^ legal, where the pope, the chief person to be re- 
 
 y Sect. 24. num. I. a se creatam sine regimine iinius per- 
 z And shall we think that Christ, tlie sonss reliqnisset. Extravagant. Com. 
 wisest King, hath not provided &c. Tit. de JMajoritate et Obedientia c. 
 A. C'. p. 60. \rhere I cannot hnt com- Unam sanctam. In addition. D. P. 
 mend either A. C.'s modesty, that he l?ertrandi edit. Paris. 1585. 
 doth not, or his cunning, that he will a Etianisi non conlirnictur, nc jiroha- 
 not, go so far as some have done be- hili testimonio scriptnrarum. Staph Re- 
 fore him; though in these words, lect. Cont. 4. q. i. Art. 3. 
 " Shall we think" &c. he goes too far. b Here A. C. tells us, " That doulit- 
 Non videretur Domimis discretus fuisse less the Arians also did niislike, that 
 (ut cum reverentia ejus kxpiar) nisi at Nice the pope had legates to carry 
 iinicum post se talem vicarium reli- his messages, and that one of them, in 
 (juisset, qui hfec onmia ]>otest. Fuit his place, sat as president." Why but, 
 autem ejus vicarius Petriis. Ei idem first, it is manifest that Ilosius was 
 dicendnm est de snccessoribus Petri, president at the council of Nice, and 
 cum eadem absurditas sequeretur, si not the i)ishop of Rome, either by him- 
 post mortem Petri, humanam naturam self or his legates. And so much Atha- 
 
 N 
 
178 
 
 Archbishop Laud against 
 
 Sect. 27. formed, shall sit president in it, and be chief judge in his 
 own cause, against all law, divine, natural, and human, in a 
 place not free, but in or too near his own dominion ? — ^to 
 which all were not called that had deliberative or consultative 
 voice ? — in which none had suffrage but such as were sworn to 
 the pope and the church of Rome, and professed enemies to 
 all that called for reformation or a free council? And the 
 pope cJiimself, to shew his charity, had declared and pro- 
 nounced the appellants heretics, bofoi'e they were condemned 
 by the council. I hope an assembly of enemies are no lawful 
 council : and I think the decrees of such an one are omni jure 
 nuUa^ and carry their nullity v^^ith them through all law. 
 II. — Again ; Is that council general that hath none of the 
 
 nasius himself (who was present, and 
 surely understood the council of Nice, 
 and who presided there, as well as A.C.) 
 tells lis : Hosins hie est princeps syno- 
 dorum. (So belike he presided in other 
 councils as well as at Nice.) Hie for- 
 mulam fidei in Nicwna synodo conce- 
 pit. And this the Arians themselves con- 
 fess to C'onstantius the emperor, then 
 seduced to he theirs ; apud S. Atha- 
 nas. Epist. ad solitar. vitam agentes. 
 But then secondly, I do not except 
 against the pope's sitting as president, 
 either at Nice or Trent ; for tliat he 
 might do, \A'hen called or chosen to it, 
 as well as any other patriarch, if you 
 consider no more but his sitting as pre- 
 sident. But at Nice the cause was not 
 his own, but Christ's, against the Ari- 
 ans ; whereas at Trent, it was merely 
 his own, his own supremacy, and his 
 church's corruptions, against the pro- 
 testants : and therefore surely not to 
 sit president at the trial of his own 
 cause, though in other causes he might 
 sit as well as other patriarchs. And 
 for that of Bellarmine, de Concil. lili. i. 
 c. 21. §. Tertia conditio, namely, 
 " That it is unjust to deny the Roman 
 prelate his right (jus sunm) in calling 
 general councils, and presiding in them, 
 in possession of wliich right he hatii 
 been for 1500 years;" that is but a 
 bold assertion of the cardinal's, by his 
 leave ; for he gives us no proof of it 
 b\it his iiare word ; whereas the very 
 authentic copies of the councils, pul)- 
 lished and printed l)y the Romanists 
 themselves, affirm clearly they were 
 called by emperors, not by the pope ; 
 
 and that the pope did not preside in all 
 of them. And I hope Bellarmine will 
 not expect we should take his bare 
 word against the council's. And most 
 certain it is, that even as Hosius pre- 
 sided in the council at Nice, and no 
 way that as the pope's legate, so also 
 in the second general coimcil, which 
 was the first of Constantinople, Necta- 
 rius bishop of Constantinople presided. 
 Concil. Chalced. Act. vi. p. 136. apud 
 Binium. In the third, which M'as the 
 first at Ephesus, St. Cyril of Alexan- 
 dria presided. And though pope Coe- 
 lestine was joined with him, yet he 
 sent none out of the west to that coun- 
 cil, till many things were therein fi- 
 nished, as appears apud Act. Concil. 
 torn. ii. c. 16, 17. In the fourth, at 
 Chalcedon, the legates of the bishop of 
 Rome had the prime place. In the 
 fifth, Eutychius bishoj) of Constanti- 
 nople was president. In the sixth and 
 seventh, the legates of the pope were 
 president ; yet so as that almost all 
 the duty of a moderator or ])resident 
 was performed in the seventh by Tha- 
 rasius, bishop of Constantinople ; as ap- 
 pears manifestly in the Acts of that 
 council. And since these seven are all 
 the general councils which the Greeks 
 and Latins jointly acknowledge, and 
 that in these other patriarchs and bi- 
 shops presided as oft, at least, as the bi- 
 shops of Rome, what is become of 
 Bellarmine's brag, that the pope hath 
 been possessed of this i-ight of presiding 
 in general councils for the space of 
 1500 years ? 
 cLeo X. Bull. Jun.8. 1^20. 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 179 
 
 eastern churches' consent nor presence there ? Arc all the feet. 27. 
 Greeks so become 7ion ecclesia, no church, that they have no 
 interest in general councils? It numbers indeed among the 
 subscribers, six Greeks : they miglit be so by nation, or by 
 title purposely given them ; but dare you say they were 
 actually bishops of and sent from the Greek church to the 
 council ? Or is it to be accounted a general council, that in 
 many sessions had scarce ten archbishops, or forty or fifty 
 bishops present ? And for the west of Christendom, nearer 
 home, it reckons one English, St. Asaph. But cardinal Pole 
 was there too : and English indeed he was by birth, but not 
 sent to that council by the king and church of England, but as 
 one of the pope's legates ; and so we find him at the five first 
 sessions of that council : and at the beginning of the council 
 he was not bishop in the church of England ; and after he 
 was archbishop of Canterbury, he never went over to the coun- 
 cil. And can you prove that St. Asaph went thither by au- 
 thority ? There were but few of other nations ; and it may be 
 some of them reckoned with no more truth than the Greeks. 
 In all the sessions under Paul the Third, but two Frenchmen, 
 and sometimes none ; as in the six under Julius the Third, 
 when Henry the Second of France protested against that 
 council. And in the end, it is well known how all the French 
 (which were then a good part) held off, till the cardinal of 
 Lorrain was got to Rome. As for the Spaniards, they la- 
 boured for many things, upon good grounds, and were most 
 unworthily overborne. 
 
 III.— To all this A. C. hath nothing to say, but " That it is a. C. p. 6r. 
 not necessary to the lawfulness and generalness of a council, 
 that all bishops of the world should be actually present, sub- 
 scribe, or consent ; but that such promulgation be made, as is 
 morally sufficient to give notice that such a council is called, and 
 that all may come if they will ; and that a major part, at 
 least, of those that are present give assent to the decrees."" 
 I will forget, that it was but pag. 59. in which A. C. speaks A. c. p. 59. 
 of all pastors ; and those not only summoned, but gathered 
 together. And I will easily grant him, that it is not neces- 
 sary that all bishops in the Christian world be present and 
 subscribe : but sure it is necessary to the generalness of a 
 
 V 9 
 
180 Archbishop Laud affainst 
 
 Sect. 27,28. council that some be ^ there, and authorized, for all particu- 
 lar churches ; and to the freedom of a council, that all that 
 come may come safe ; and to the lawfulness of a council, 
 that all may come unengaged, and not fastened to a side, be- 
 fore they sit down to argue or deliberate. Nor is such a 
 promulgation as A. C mentions sufficient, but only in case of 
 contumacy ; and that where they which are called and refuse 
 to come have no just cause for their not coming, as too many 
 had in the case of Trent. And were such a promulgation 
 sufficient for the generalness of a council, yet for the freedom 
 and the lawfulness of it it were not. 
 
 ;§, So (said I) would Arians say of the council of Nice. 
 The bishop would not admit the case to be like : — 
 
 Sect. 28. iJ. So indeed you said. And not you alone : it is the 
 common objection made against all that admit not every 
 latter council as fully as that council of Nice, famous through 
 all the Christian world. In the mean time, nor you nor they 
 consider, that the case is not alike, as I then told you. If 
 the case be alike in all, why do not you admit that which was 
 held at Ariminum, and the second of Ephesus, as well as 
 Nice ? If you say (as yours do) it was because the pope ap- 
 proved them not, that is a true cause, but not adequate or 
 full : for it was because the whole church refused them^ ; with 
 whom the Roman prelate (standing then entire in the faith) 
 agreed, and so (for his patriarchate) refused those councils. 
 But suppose it true that these synods were not admitted, be- 
 cause the pope refused them, yet this ground is gained, that 
 the case is not alike for men's assent to all councils. And if 
 you look to have this granted, that the pope must confirm, or 
 the council is not lawful, we have far more reason to look 
 that this bo not denied, That the scripture must not be de- 
 parted from, in s letter, or necessary sense, or the council is 
 
 « Ut aliqui mittaiitiir, et adveiiiant, the letter and sense of scripture. They 
 
 et conveniant, &c. Bellarm. tie Conc-il. said so indeed : but the testimony of 
 
 HI), i. c. 1 7. §. Quarta, nt saltern. the whole church, both then and since, 
 
 f Sect. 26. mini. I. went with the council against the Ari- 
 
 gr Here A. C. tells us, That the Ari- ans. So is it not here against the 
 
 ans thought so of the council of Nice, i>r(>testants for Trent ; for they offer 
 
 p. 61, namely, that they departed from to ije tried by that very council of Nice, 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 181 
 
 not lawful. For the consent and confirmation of scripture is Sect. 28,29. 
 of far greater authority to make the council authentical, and 
 the decisions of it de Jide, than any confirmation of the pope 
 can be. Now of these two, the council of Nice, we are sui-e, 
 had the first, the rule of scripture ; and you say it had the 
 second, the pope''s confirmation. The council of Trent, we 
 are able to pi"ove, had not the first ; and so we have no rea- 
 son to respect the second. And to what end do your learned 
 men maintain, that a council may make a conclusion de fide, 
 though it be simply h extra, out of all bound of scripture ; 
 but out of a jealousy at least, that this of Trent, and some 
 others, have in their determinations left both letter and 
 sense of scriptui'e I Shew this against the council of Nice, and 
 I will grant so nuich of the case to be like. But what will 
 you say if 'Constantino required, " that things thus brought 
 into question should be answered and solved by testimony 
 out of scripture f and the bishops of the Nicene council 
 never refused that rule. And what will you say if they pro- 
 fess they depart not from it, " ^^but are ready by many testi- 
 monies of divine scripture to demonstrate their faith f Is the 
 case then alike betwixt it and Trent I Surely no. But you 
 say that I pretended something else, for my not admitting 
 the case to be alike. 
 
 ^ Pretending that the pope made bishops of purpose for 
 his side. But this the bishop proved not. 
 
 iJ. I. — No : nor had I reason to take on me to prove what Sect. 29. 
 I said not. I know it will be expected I should prove what I 
 say. And it is hard to prove the purpose of the pope's heart. 
 For if it be proved that he made bishops at that time ; that 
 some of them were titular only, and had no livelihood to sub- 
 sist but out of his purse, (and so must hang their judgment 
 at the strings of it ;) that some of these thus made were sent 
 to the council and sure not without their errand ; yet if the 
 
 and all the ancient councils and Fathers • Literarum divinitns insjtiratarnin 
 
 of the church, within the first fonrhun- testimoiiiis, in Syn. Nic. lil). ii. torn. i. 
 
 dred years, and somewhat further. per Nicolinum. 
 
 ^ So Stapleton often ; but the Fathers k Had. in Osii sententia, p. 517. Pa- 
 quite otherwise. Quae extra evange- rati ex S. Spiritns arbitrio jier plnrima 
 lium sint, non defendam. Hilar, ad divinarnm scripturarnni testiinonia de- 
 Const, lib. ii. monstrare haec ita se habere. 
 
 ^3 
 
18^ ArchhhJtop Laud against 
 
 Sect. 29. pope will say he neither made nor sent them to overrule the 
 Holy Ghost at that meeting, or of purpose for his side, (as no 
 question but it will be said,) who can prove it that is not a 
 surveyor of the heart ? But though the pope's heart cannot 
 be seen, yet if these and the like presumptions be true, it is 
 a great sign that Trent was too corrupt and factious a meet- 
 ing for the Holy Ghost to be at;— and sure the case in this 
 not alike at Nice. 
 
 n. — That which I said was, That Trent could be no indif- 
 ferent council to the church, the pope having made himself a 
 strong party in it. And this I proved, though you be here 
 not only content to omit, but plainly to deny the proof. For 
 I proved it thus, (and you 1 answered not,) That there were 
 more Italian bishops there, than of all Christendom besides. 
 More ! yea more than double. And this I proved out of the 
 council itself, which you had in your hand in decimo sexto; 
 but had no great heart to look it. For where the number of 
 prelates is expressed that had suffrage and vote in that coun- 
 cil, the Italians are set down to be one hundred and eighty- 
 seven, and all the rest make but eighty-three. So that there 
 were more Italian bishops by one hundred and four, tha^i of 
 all the rest of Christendom. Sure the pope did not mean to 
 be overreached in this council. And whatsoever became of 
 his infallibility otherwise, he might this way be sure to be in- 
 fallible in whatsoever he would have determined : and this, 
 
 1 Here A. C. is angiy, and says, Germany were almost as near as the 
 
 " This was no jiroof, nor worthy of any Itahans tliemselves. And why then 
 
 answer, or looking into the book for it. came no more of these that were near 
 
 First, because it "is only a surmise of enough? Well; A. C. may say what 
 
 adversaries, who are apt to interpret to he will. But the pope remembered well 
 
 the worst. Secondly, because there the councils of Constance and Basil, 
 
 might be more Italiaii' bishops there, as and thouglit it \^-isdom to make sure 
 
 being nearer, yet without any factious work at Trent. For in later tmies 
 
 combination w'ith the pope : as in the (for their own fears, no doubt) the bi- 
 
 Greek councils more Grecians were pre- shops of Rome have been no great 
 
 sent." A. C. p. 62. No proof, or a friends to general councils, especially 
 
 weak one. Let the reader judge that, free ones : I\Iulti suspicantur, quod hajc 
 
 But why no proof? Because asurmise dissinuilaverit Romana curia, et con- 
 
 of adversaries. Is that a surmise of cilia fieri neglexerit, ut possit ad sua; 
 
 adversaries that is taken out of the coun- voluntatis libitum plenius dominari, et 
 
 cil itself ? Is that council then become jura aliarum ecclesiarum liberius usur- 
 
 regnum divisitm, and apt to interpret pare. Quod non assero esse verum, sed 
 
 the worst of itself? Yea, but there quiahujusmodi laborat infamia, ideo,&c. 
 
 were more Italian bishops, as being Pet. ile Aliaco, Gard. Cameracensis lib. 
 
 neai-er. Most true ; nearer a great de Reformat. Eccles. in Fascic. rerum 
 
 deal than the Grecian bishops : but the e.xpeteud. fol. 204. A. 
 bishops of France and of some parts of 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 183 
 
 without all doubt, is all the infallibility he hath. So I proved Sect. 29. 
 this sufficiently, I think. For if it were not to be sure of a 
 side, give any satisfying reason why such a potent party of 
 Italians, more than double to the whole Christian world, 
 should be there. Shew me the like for Nice, and I will give 
 it that the case is alike between these two councils. 
 
 Ill, — Here Bellarmine comes in to help : but sure it will 
 not help you, that he hath offered at as much against the 
 council of Nice as I have urged against that at Trent. For 
 he tells us, " ^ That in the council at Nice, there were as few 
 bishops of the west present as were of the east at Trent," 
 but five in all. Be it so: yet this will not make the case 
 alike between the two councils. First, because I press not 
 the disparity in number only ; but with it the pope's carriage, 
 to be sure of a major part. For it lay upon the pope to make 
 sure work at Trent, both for himself and his church. But 
 neither the Greek church in general, nor any patriarch of 
 the east, had any private interest to look to in the council at 
 Nice. Secondly, because I press not so much against the 
 council of Trent, That there were so exceeding many bishops 
 of the west, compared with those of the east, (for that must 
 needs be, when a council is held in the west,) but that there 
 were so many more Italians and bishops obnoxious to the 
 pope's power, than of all Germany, France, Spain, and all 
 other parts of the west besides. Thirdly, because both Bel- 
 larmine and A. 0. seek to avoid the dint of this argument 
 by comparing the western with the eastern bishops, and are 
 content to say nothing about the excessive number of Italians 
 to others of the west, that will receive a fuller answer than 
 any of the rest. For though very few western bishops were 
 at the council of Nice, being so remote; yet at the same 
 time pope Sylvester held a council at Rome, in which he with 
 two hundred and seventy-five bishops of the west confirmed 
 the Nicene Creed, "and anathematized " all those which 
 should dare to dissolve the definition of that holy and great 
 
 '" In concilio Nicfeno primo ex occi- " Omnes qui ausi fueriiit dissolvere 
 
 dente solum fuemut duo jiresliyteri definitionem sancti et magni concilii 
 
 missi ex Italia, unusei)iscopus ex Gal- quod apud Nica'ain congregatum est, 
 
 lia, unus ex Hisj)ania, et uuus ex Afri- anatlieinatizainr.s. Coueil. Kom. 3. sub 
 
 ca. BellaiTO. de Concil. lib. i. c. 1 7. Sylvestro. Apud Binium, p. 449. 
 §. antepeuult. 
 
 N 4 
 
184 Archbishop Laud against 
 
 Sect. 29. council.*''' Now let Bellaraiine, or A. C, or any else, shew, 
 that when the council of Trent sat, there was another coun- 
 cil (though never so privately in regard of their miserable op- 
 pression) which sat in Greece, or any where in the east, under 
 any patriarch or Christian bishop, which did confirm the ca- 
 nons of the council of Trent, and anathematize them which 
 admitted them not ; and I will confess, they speak home to 
 the comparison between the councils, else a blind man may 
 see the difference ; and it is a vast one. 
 A. C. p. 62. IV- — But here A. C. makes account he hath found a better 
 reply to this, and now tells us, " that neither French, nor 
 Spanish, nor schismatical Greeks did agree with the pro- 
 testants in those points which were defined in that council ; 
 especially after it was confirmed by the pope ; as appears by 
 the censure of Jeremias the Greek patriarch." Who agreed 
 with the protestants in the points defined by that council, (as 
 he speaks.) or rather (to speak properly) against the points 
 there defined, I know not. And, for aught A. 0. knows, 
 many might agree with them in heart, that in such a council 
 durst not open themselves. And what knows A. C. how 
 many might have been of their opinion, in the main, before 
 the council ended, had they been admitted to a fair and a 
 free dispute ? And it may be too, some decrees would have 
 been more favourable to them, had not the care of the pope's 
 interest made them sourer; for else what mean these words, 
 " especially after it was confirmed by the pope V As for Je- 
 remias, it is true, his censure is, in many things, against the 
 protestants ; but I find not that that censure of his is war- 
 ranted by any authority of the Greek church, or that he gave 
 the protestants any hearing before he passed his censure. 
 And at the most, it is but the censure of a schismatic, in 
 A. C.'s own judgment. And for his flourish which follows, 
 " That east and west would condemn protestants for here- 
 tics," I would he would forbear prophesying, till both parts 
 might meet in a free general council that sought Christ more 
 than themselves. But I find the Jesuit hath not done with 
 me yet, but adds : 
 
 iP. In fine, the 53. wished, that a lawful general council 
 were called to end controversies. The persons present 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 185 
 
 said, that the king was incHned thereunto, and that there- Sect. 30,31. 
 fore we cathoHcs might do well to concur, 
 M. And what say you to my wish l You pretend great love Sect. 30. 
 to the truth ; would you not have it found ? Can you or any 
 Christian be offended that there should be a good end of con- 
 troversies ? Can you think of a better end than by a general 
 council ? And if you have a most gracious king inclined unto 
 it, (as you say it was offered,) how can you acquit yourselves 
 if you do not consent ? Now here A. C. " marvels what kind a. C. p. 62. 
 of general council I would have, and what rules I would have 
 observed in it, which are morally like to be observed, and 
 make an end of controversies, better than their catholic ge- 
 neral councils." Truly I am not willing to leave A. C. un- 
 satisfied in any thing ; nor have I any meaning to trouble the 
 church with any new devisings of mine. Any general council 
 shall satisfy me, (and, I presume, all good Christians,) that is 
 lawfully called, continued, and ended, according to the same 
 course and under the same " conditions which general coun- 
 cils observed in the primitive church ; which I am sure were 
 councils general, and catholic, whatever yours be. But I 
 doubt that, after all the noise made about these requisite con- 
 ditions, A. C. and his fellows will be found as much, if not 
 more defective in performance of the conditions, than in the 
 conditions themselves. Well ; the Jesuit goes on, for all 
 this. 
 
 J^. I asked the 13. whether he thought a general council 
 might err : he said it might. 
 
 5l3. I presume you do not expect I should enter into the Sect. 31. 
 proof of this controversy, " Whether a general council may 
 err in determination or not." Yourself brought no proof 
 that it cannot ; and till that be brought, my speech is good 
 that it can : and yet I hope to be found no infringer of any 
 power given by Clirist to his church. But it seems by that 
 which follows, you did by this question, " Can a general 
 coimcil errf but seek to win ground for your other which 
 follows. 
 
 o Ex iis conciliis quae omnium con- clesiae coUigimus quatuor coiiditiones 
 seiisu ^eueralia fuerunt, qualia sunt requiri, et sufficere. Bellarm. de Concil. 
 quatuor prima : et ex consuetudine ec- lib. i, c. 1 7. §. 2. 
 
186 Archhishop Laud against 
 
 Sect. 32. jf. If a general council may err, what nearer are we then, 
 said I, to unity, after a council hath determined I " Yes,"" 
 said he, " although it may err, yet we should be bound 
 to hold with it till another come to reverse it/"' 
 Sect. 32. 2J. I. — Whether a general council may err or not, is a 
 question of great consequence in the church of Christ. To 
 say it cannot err, leaves the church not only without remedy 
 against an error once determined, but also without sense that 
 it may need a remedy, and so without care to seek it, which 
 is the misery of the church of Rome at this day. To say it 
 can err, seems to expose the members of the church to an 
 uncertainty and wavering in the faith ; to make unquiet 
 spirits not only to disrespect former councils of the church, 
 but also to slight and contemn whatsoever it may now deter- 
 mine, into which error some opposers of the church of Rome 
 have fallen. And upon this is grounded your question, 
 " AVherein are we nearer to unity, if a council may err V 
 But in relating my answer to this you are not so candid, for 
 my words did not sound as yours seem to do, "■ That we 
 should hold with the council, err or not err, till another came 
 to reverse it ;" as if grounds of faith might vary at the 
 racket, and be cast of each side as a cunning hand might 
 lay them. 
 
 II. — You forget again, omit at least, (and with what mind 
 
 you best know,) the caution which I added. For I said the 
 
 I determination of a general council erring was to stand in force, 
 
 I and to have external obedience at the least yielded to it, till 
 
 I r evidence of scripture, or a demonstration to the contrary, 
 
 made the error appear, and until thereupon "i another council 
 
 of equal authority did reverse it. And indeed I might have 
 
 P Sect. 33. Consid. 5. num. I. II. so \ii infinitum : so our faith should 
 And the reason of this is, Ijecause to never have where to settle and rest it- 
 have a s'eneral council deceived is not self, fllaldoii. in St. IMatth. xviii. 20. 
 impossible ; but altogether impossible it But to this I answer, that the ancient 
 IS that demonstrative reason, or testi- church took this "ay, as A\'ill after^^'ard 
 mony divine, should deceive. Hooker, appear in St. Augustine. Next, there 
 Eccles. Pol. b. ii. §. 7. is no uncertainty at all ; for no general 
 
 q In which case IMaldonat puts in council, lawfully called and so proceed- 
 
 the shrewdest argument ; namely, that ing, can be questioned in another, uu- 
 
 this way we should never have a cer- less it so fall out that evident scripture 
 
 tain end of controversies. For to try or a demonstration appear against it. 
 
 whether any thing were decreed accord- But either of these are so clear and 
 
 ing to the word of God l)y one general manifest, that there need be no fear of 
 
 council, we should need another coun- proceeding in infinitum, and leaving 
 
 oil ; and then another to try that, and the faith in uncertainty in necessaries 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 187 
 
 returned upon you again, If a general council not confirmed Sect. 32. 
 by the pope may err, (which you affirm,) to what end then a 
 general council I And you may answer, Yes : for although a 
 general council may err, yet the pope, as head of the church, 
 cannot. An excellent means of unity, to have all in the 
 church as the pope will have it, whatever scripture say or 
 the church think. And then, I pray, to what end a general 
 council I Will his holiness be so holy as to confirm a general 
 council if it determine against him? And as for 'Bellar- 
 mine's reasons whv a general council should be useful if not 
 necessary, though the pope be infallible, they are so weak in 
 part and in part so unworthy, that I am sorry any necessity 
 of a bad cause should force so learned a man to make use 
 of them. 
 
 III. — Here A. 0. tells me. "The caution mentioned asA.C. p. 63, 
 omitted makes my answer worse than the Jesuit related it ; "^* 
 and that in two things. First, in that the Jesuit relates it 
 thus : Although it may err ; but the caution makes it as if it 
 did actually err. Secondly, in that the Jesuit relates, that 
 we are bound to hold it till another come to reverse it ; that 
 is, we not knowing whether it do err or not, but only that it 
 may err. But the caution puts the case so, as if the deter- 
 mination of a general council actually erring were not ijyso 
 jure invalid, but must stand in force and have external obedi- 
 ence yielded to it, till not only moral certainty, but evidence 
 of scripture, or a demonstration to the contrary, make the 
 error appear ; and when it appears, we must yield our obe- 
 dience till a council of equal authority reverse it, which per- 
 haps will not be found in an whole age. So either the Jesuit 
 relates this speech ti-uly or less disgracefully :"" and A. C. 
 thinks that upon better judgment I will not allow this cau- 
 tion. Truly I shall not thank the Jesuit for any his kindness 
 here ; and for the caution, I must and do acknowledge it 
 mine even upon advisement, and that whether it make my 
 answer worse or better. And I think further, that the Jesuit 
 hath no great cause to thank A. 0. for this defence of his 
 relation. 
 
 to salvation. And in curious specula- cil. §. 33. consid. 5. num. 1.2. 
 
 tions it is no matter whether tliere be r Bellarm. do Rom. Pont. lib. iv. 
 
 certainty or no, with or without a coun- c. 7. §. 3, &c. 
 
188 Archbishop) Laud against 
 
 Sect. 3,2. IV. — First then, the Jesuit (so says A. C.) doth in his 
 A- C. p. ^'3- j.g]g^^jQn make it but a supposition, that a general council may 
 err ; but tlio caution expresses it as actually erring. True, 
 but yet I hope this expression makes no general council 
 actually err ; and then it comes all to one, whether I sup- 
 pose that such a council may err or that it do err. And it 
 is fitter for clearing the difficulties into which the church falls 
 in such a case, to suppose (and more than a supposition it is 
 not) a general council ^actually erring, than as only under a 
 possibility of erring. For the church hath much more to do 
 to vindicate itself from such an error actually being, than 
 from any the like error that might be. 
 A. C. p. 63. V. — Secondly, A. C. thinks he hath got great advantage 
 by the words of the caution, in that I say, " A general coun- 
 cil errins: is to stand in force and have external obedience," 
 at least so far as it consists in silence, patience, and forbear- 
 ance yielded to it, " till evidence of scripture, or a demonstra- 
 tion to the contrary, make the error appear, and until there- 
 upon another council of equal authority did reverse it." 
 Well, I say it again. But is there any one word of mine 
 in the caution that speaks of our knowing of this error? 
 iSurely not one, (that is A. C.'s addition.) Now suppose a 
 
 I general council actually erring in some point of divine truth, 
 
 I I hope it will not follow that this error must be so gross as 
 i that forthwith it must needs be known to private men. And 
 I doubtless till they know it, obedience must be yielded ; nay, 
 i when they know it, (if the error be not manifestly against 
 
 fundamental verity, in which case a general council cannot 
 
 easily err,) I would have A. C. and all wise men consider, 
 
 ■ whether external obedience be not even then to be yielded. 
 
 ! For if controversies arise in the church, some end they 
 
 1 must have, or they will tear all in sunder ; and I am sure no 
 
 ; wisdom can think that fit. Why then, say a general council 
 
 err, and an erring decree be ipso jure, by the very law itself 
 
 invalid ; I would have it wisely considered again, whether it 
 
 ^ be not fit to allow a general council that honour and privilege 
 
 which all other great courts have, namely, that there be a 
 
 declaration of the invalidity of its decrees, as well as of the 
 
 s Sviiodum generalem aliquoties er- Fidei, lib. ii. Art. 2. c. 19. §. i. 
 rasse percepimiis. Wald. de Doctrin. 
 
^ 
 
 Fisher the Jesuit. 189 
 
 laws of other courts, before private men can take liberty to Sect. 32. 
 refuse obedience. For till such a declaration, if the council 
 stand not in force, A. C. sets up private spirits to control 
 general councils, which is the thing he so often and so much 
 cries out against in the protestants. Therefore it may seem 
 very fit and necessary for the peace of Christendom, that a 
 general council thus erring should stand in force, till evidence 
 of scripture or a demonstration make the error to appear, 
 as that another council*^ of equal authority reverse it. For 
 as for moral certainty, that is not strong enough in points of 
 faith, (which alone are spoken of here.) And if another 
 council of equal authority cannot be gotten together in an 
 age, that is such an inconvenience as the church must bear 
 when it happens. And far better is that inconvenience than 
 this other, "that any authority less than a general council 
 should rescind the decrees of it, unless it err manifestly and 
 intolerably ; or that the whole church upon peaceable and 
 just complaint of this error neglect or refuse to call a council 
 and examine it, and there come in national or provincial 
 councils to '^reform for themselves. But no way must lie open 
 to private men to y refuse obedience till the council be heard 
 jand weighed, as well as that which they say against it, yet 
 I with zBellarmine"'s exception still, " so the error be not mani- 
 uestly intolerable ;" nor is it fit for private men in such great 
 cases as this, upon which the whole peace of Christendom 
 depends, to argue thus : The error appears, therefore the 
 determination of the council is ipso jure invalid. But this is 
 far the safer way (I say still, when the error is neither funda- 
 mental nor in itself manifest) to argue thus : The determina- 
 tion is by equal authority, and that secundum jus, according 
 to law declared to be invalid; therefore the error appears. 
 And it is a more humble and conscientious way for any 
 private man to suffer a council to go before him, than for him 
 
 t It is not long since A. C. compared u Sect. 33. consid. 4. num. I. 
 councils to parliaments ; it was but p. 60. x Sect. 24. num. I. 
 
 And I hope a parliament and the acts y Sect. 38. num. XV. 
 of it must stand in force, though some- z Non est inferiorum judicare an 
 
 thing lie mistaken in them, or found superiores legitime procedant necne, 
 
 hurtful, till another parliament of equal nisi manifestissime constet intoleratiilem 
 
 authority reverse it and them : for I errorem committi. Bellarni. de Concil. 
 
 liresume you will not have any inferior lib. ii. c. 8. §. Alii dicunt concilium 
 
 authority to abrogate acts of parlia- Nisi manifeste constet. Jac. Almain in 
 
 mont. :;. sent. D. 24. q. unica fine. 
 
190 Archhishop Laud against 
 
 Sect.32,35. to outrun the council: but weak and ignorant men's out-l 
 running both God and his church, is as bold a fault now onl 
 all sides, as the daring of the times hath made it common| 
 As for that which I have added concerning the possibility- 
 of a general council's erring, I shall go on with it without ask|. 
 ing any further leave of A. C. 
 
 Sect, ^i- For upon this occasion I shall not hold it amiss a little 
 more at large to consider the point of general councils, how 
 they may or may not err; and a little to look into the 
 Roman and protestant opinion concerning them, which is 
 more agreeable to the power and rule Avhich Christ hath left 
 in his church, and which is most preservative of peace esta- 
 blished, or ablest to reduce perfect unity into the church of 
 Christ, when that poor ship hath her ribs dashed in sunder 
 by the waves of contention. And this I will adventure to 
 the world but only in the nature of a consideration, and with 
 submission to my mother the church of England, and the 
 mother of us all, the universal catholic church of Christ, as I 
 do most humbly all whatsoever else is herein contained. 
 
 Consi.l. I. First then, I consider whether all the power that an oecu- 
 menical council hath to determine, and all the assistance it 
 hath not to err in that determination, it hath it not all from 
 the ^catholic universal body of the church and clergy in the 
 church, b whose representative it is ? And it seems it hath : 
 for the government of the church being not <^ monarchical but 
 as Christ is the head, this principle is inviolable in nature : 
 Every body collective that represents, receives power and pri- 
 vileges from the body which is represented ; else a repre- 
 sentation might have force without the thing it represents, 
 which cannot be. So there is no power in the council, no 
 assistance to it, but what is in and to the church. But yet 
 then it may be questioned whether the representing body 
 hath '^all the power, strength, and privilege which the re- 
 presented hath? And suppose it hath all the legal power, 
 
 a Si ecclesiae universitati non est data repra'seatative, ut nostri hxjiiiintur. 
 
 ulla aiithoritas, ergo neqiie concilio ge- Bellarm. de Eccles. Milit. lib. iii. c. 14. 
 
 nerali, qiiateiius ecclesiam iiniversalem §. 3. 
 
 rej)raesentat. Bellarm. de Coiicil. lili. c Sect. 26. imm. VIII. 
 
 ii. c. 16. §. Quod si ecclesia. <' Oinnis reprjeseiitatio virtute minor 
 
 l> Concilium generale ecclesiam re- est re ipsa, vel veritate cujus represen- 
 
 prssentans. Jac. Almain. in 3. Sent. D. tatio est. Colligitur aperte ex Thom. 
 
 24. q. unica. — Episcopi sunt ecclesia i, 2. q. 10 1. A. 2. ad 2. 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 191 
 
 yet it hath not all the natural, either of strength or wisdom, Sect. 33. 
 that the whole hath. Now because the representative hath 
 power from the whole, and the main body can meet no other 
 way, therefore the acts, laws, and decrees of the represent- 
 ative, be it ecclesiastical or civil, are binding in their strength. 
 But they are not so certain and free from error as is that 
 wisdom which resides in the whole : for in assemblies merely 
 civil or ecclesiastical, all the able and sufficient men cannot 
 be in the body that represents ; and it is as possible so many 
 ablee and sufficient men (for some particular business) may 
 be left out, as that they which are in may miss, or misapply 
 that reason and ground upon which the determination is 
 principally to rest. Here, for want of a clear view of this 
 ground, the representative body errs ; whereas the repre- 
 sented, by virtue of those members which saw and knew the 
 ground, may hold the principle inviolated. 
 
 Secondly, I consider, that since it is thus in nature and Consid. 2. 
 in civil bodies, if it be not so in ecclesiastical too, some rea- 
 son must be given why ; f for that body also consists of men : \ 
 those men neither all equal in their perfections of knowledge ^1 
 and judgment, whether acquired by industry, or rooted in |i 
 nature, or infused by God. Not all equal, nor any one of 
 them perfect and absolute, or freed from passion and human 
 infirmities. Nor doth their meeting together make them , 
 infallible in all things, though the act which is hammered out i 
 by many together must in reason be perfectcr than that 
 which is but the child of one man's sufficiency. If then a 
 general council have no ground of not erring from the men 
 or the meeting, either it must not be at all, or it must be 
 by some assistance and power upon them when they are so 
 met together ; and this, if it be less than the assistance 
 of the Holy Ghost, it cannot make them secure against 
 error. 
 
 I. — Thirdly, I consider, that the assistance of the Holy Consid. 3. 
 Ghost is without error : that is no question ; and as little 
 
 e Posset enim coiitinp^ere (jiiod con- iii. cap. i,^. 
 gregati in concilio generali essent patici f Ecclesia est imnm corpus mysticum 
 
 et viles, tarn in re, (juain in hoininum per similitudinem ad natnrale. Durand. 
 
 rcpiitatione, respectu illornni qui ad 3. D. 14. q. 2. num. 5. Biel. Lect. 
 
 illud concilium generale minima con- 73. in Can. Miss, 
 venissent, &c. Och. Dial. par. 3. lib. 
 
192 Archbishop Lmid against 
 
 Sect. 33. there is that a council hath it. But the doubt that troubles, 
 is, Whether all the assistance of the Holy Ghost be afforded 
 in such a high manner, as to cause all the definitions of a 
 council in matters fundamental in the faith, and in remote 
 deductions from it, to be alike infallible I Now the Romanists, 
 to prove there is § infallible assistance, produce some places of 
 scripture ; but no one of them infers, much less enforces, an 
 infallibility. The places which Stapleton there rests upon are 
 these : '^ I will send you the Spirit of truth, which will lead you 
 into all truth. And, ' This Spirit shall ahide imth you for ever. 
 And, ^ Behold I am with you to the end of the world. To these, 
 others add ' the founding of the church upon the rock, 
 against which the gates of hell shall not prevail. And Christ's 
 prayer for St, Peter, "^ that his faith fail not. And Chrisfs 
 promise, that " where two or three are gathered together in his 
 name, he will he in the midst of them. And that in the ° Acts, 
 It seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us. 
 
 II. — For the first, which is, leading into all truth, and that 
 for ever. P All is not always universally taken in scripture. 
 Nor is it here simply for all truth : for then a general coun- 
 cil could no more err in matter of fact than in matter of 
 faith ; in which yet <i yourselves grant it may err. But into 
 all ^ truth, is a limited all; into all truth absolutely necessary to 
 salvation : and this, when they suffer themselves to be led by 
 the blessed Spirit, by the word of God. And all truth which 
 Christ had before (at least fundamentally) delivered unto 
 them : ^He shall receive of mine, and shew it unto you. And 
 again, t JJe shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your 
 remembrance, which I have told you. And for this necessary 
 truth too, the apostles received this promise, not for them- 
 
 g Omnem veritatem inf;illil)iliter do- quaestio est de facto, non dc jure, &c. 
 
 cendi, &c. Stapl. Relect. Prajf. ad Lee- In ejusniodi judiciis coiicilium trrare 
 
 torem. posse non est dubuini. 
 
 h John xvl. 13. r Dubium est an illud Doccbit om- 
 
 i John xiv. 16. nia, S. Joh. xiv. 26. referendum sit ad 
 
 k Matt, xxviii. 20. ilhid, QurFCiiiu/iic dim volts: (juasi non 
 
 1 Matt. xvi. 18 aliud docturuni Spiritum Sanctum di- 
 
 m Luke xxii. 32. cat, quani tjuod ipse antea docuisset, 
 
 " Matt, xviii. 20. non repui;nabo, si quis ita veHt inter- 
 
 ° Acts XV. 28. precari, &c. Maldonat. in S. Joh. xiv. 
 p Pi-osp. de Vocat. Gent. lib. i. c. 10. s John xvi. 14. 
 q Bellarm. de Concil. hb. ii. c. 8. §. t John xiv. 26. 
 Respondeo quidam, where hesaith, Ubi 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 193 
 
 solves and a council, but for themselves, and the " whole Stct. 33. 
 catholic church ; of which a council, bo it never so general, is 
 a very little part. Yea, and this very assistance is not so 
 absolute, nor in that manner to the whole church, as it was 
 to the apostles ; neither doth Christ in that place speak 
 directly of a council, but of his apostles' preaching and 
 doctrine. 1 
 
 in. — As for Christ's being with them unto the end of the 
 world, the Fathers are so various, that in the sense of the 
 ancient church we may understand him present in ^ majesty, 
 in y power, in aid and ^ assistance against the difficulties 
 they should find for preaching Christ, which is the native 
 sense, as I take it. And this promise was made to support 
 their weakness. As for his presence in teaching by the Holy 
 Ghost, a few mention it ; and no one of them which doth 
 speaks of any infallible assistance, further than the succeed- 
 ing church keeps to the word of the apostles, as the apostles 
 kept to the guidance of the Spirit. Besides, the ^Fathers 
 refer their speech to the church univei'sal, not to any council or 
 representative body. And cMaldonato adds, " That this his 
 presence by teaching is, or may be, a collection from the place, 
 but is not the intention of Christ." 
 
 IV. — For the rock upon which the church is founded, 
 which is the next place, we dare not lay any other foundation 
 than d Christ : Christ laid his ^ apostles, no question, but upon 
 himself. With those St. Peter was laid, no man questions, 
 and in prime place of order, (would his claiming successors 
 be content with that,) as appears, and divers Fathers witness, 
 by his particular designment, Tu es Petrus; but yet the rod: 
 even there spoken of, is not St. Peter's person, cither only, or 
 properly, but the faith which he professed. And to this, be- 
 
 « Bellai-m. de Concil. lib. ii. c. 9. §. a S. Cyril, lib. vii. Dial, de Triii. 
 
 Alteram. Assistentia Sp. Saiicti non Prosp. Epist. ad Demetriadem. 
 
 est propter concil. sed universam ec- b S. Hilar, in Psal. cxxiv. S. Cyril, 
 
 clesiam. lil). vii. de Trin. S. Aug. 6. de Gen. ad 
 
 X S. August. Tr. 50. in S. .Job. Isi- Lit. c 8. S. Leo, Serm. 10. de Nat. 
 
 dor. I. Sent. cap. 14. l)om. c. 5. Isid. in Jos. c. 12. In all 
 
 >S. Hilar, in Psal. cxxiv. .Iiistin. I\Iar- wbicb places, volnscum is eitber inter- 
 
 tyr. Dial, cum Tryphone. Prosp. Epist. preted cum .mis, or fidclibus, or nniver- 
 
 ad Demetriadem. sa ccclesia. 
 
 '• S. Hilar, in Psal. cxxiv. Prosp. de c Hoc colligitur, sed (juwritur non 
 
 Vocat. Gent. lib. ii. cap. 2. Leo Serm. 2. quid colligitur, sed quid dicere volnit. 
 
 de Resurrect. Dom. cap. 3. Isidor. in Alaldonat. in S. IVIatt. xxviii. 
 
 Jos. c. 20. il I Cor. iii. i r. c Eplies. ii. 20. 
 
194 
 
 A rchbishojj Laud against 
 
 Sect. 33- 
 
 sides the evidence which is in text and truth, the ^ Fathers 
 come in with very full consent. And this, that the gates of hell 
 shall not prevail against it, is not spoken of the not erring of 
 the church principally, but of the Snot falling away of it from 
 the foundation. Now a church may err, and dangerously too, 
 and yet not fall from the foundation ; especially if that of 
 ii Bellarmine be true, " That there are many things, even de 
 fide, of the faith, which yet are not necessary to salvation.'" 
 Besides, even here again, the promise of this stable edifica- 
 tion is to the whole church, not to a council, at least no 
 further than a council builds as a church is built, that is, upon 
 Christ. 
 
 V. — The next place is Christ's prayer for St. Peter's faith. 
 The native sense of which place is, that Christ prayed, and 
 obtained for St. Peter perseverance in the grace of God against 
 the strong temptation which was to winnow him above the 
 rest. But to conclude an infallibility hence in the pope, or 
 in his chair, or in the Roman see, or in a general council, 
 though the pope be president, I find no one ancient Father 
 
 f S. Igiiiit- Epist. ad Philadelph. Qui 
 siiam finiiavit ecclesiam super petram, 
 aedificatioiie spirituali — S. Hilar, lib. vi. 
 de Trin. Super lianc igitur coiifessio- 
 nis petram ecclesiw a-diticatio est. Et 
 paulo post : Hasc tides ecclesias f'linda- 
 
 mentuni est S. Greg. Nyss. ad Trin. 
 
 adversus Juda?os : Super banc petram 
 eEdificuho ecclesiam meam, su])er con- 
 fessioaem videlicet Christi. — S. Isid. 
 Pelns. Epist. lib. i. epist. 235. Ut hac 
 ratione certam omnibus confessionem 
 traderet, quam ab eo inspiratus Petrus 
 taiu|uam basin ac fundamentum jecit, 
 super quod Dominus ecclesiam suam 
 
 extruxit S. Cyril. Alexand. de Trin. 
 
 lil). iv. Petram opiiior jier agnomina- 
 tionem, aliud nihil quam inconcussam et 
 fu-mi.ssimam discipuli tidem vocavit, in 
 qua ecclesia Christi itafundata et lirmata 
 esset, ut non laberetur, &c — B. Theo- 
 dor. in Cant, petram appellat fidei pie- 
 tatem, veritatis professiouem, &c. El 
 super hutic petram (Edificabo ecclesiam 
 meam. — S. Greg. Epist lib. iii. e]). s.i- 
 In vera fide persistite, et vitam vestram 
 in petram ec(^lesi;e, hoc est, in confes- 
 sione B. Petri apostoloruni principis 
 solidatw. — Theopliylact. in .i\latth xvi. 
 Super eum ?editicavit ecclesiam, quia 
 enim confessus erat, &c. quod lia?c con- 
 
 fessio fundamentum erit, &c. — S. Aug. 
 in I Epist. S. .lohan. tract. 10. Quid 
 est, Super hanc petram ? Super lianc 
 lidein, super id quod dictum est, Tu es, 
 
 &c S. Bas. Seleuc. Orat. 25. Hanc 
 
 confessionem cum nominasset Christus 
 petraiB, Petrum luincupat etmi qui 
 primum illam est confessus, donans ilH 
 lianc appellationem tanquam insigne, et 
 monumentum hujus confessionis. Haec 
 enim est revera pietatis petra, ha?c sa- 
 lutis basis, &c. — S. Jacob. Liturg. 'EttJ 
 T^f irerpav ttjs irlcmcos, p. 26, &C. 
 And some which join the person of St. 
 Peter, profess it is propter robur con- 
 fessionis, Justin. i\lart. Dial. cum Tryph. 
 S. Chry.sost. Horn. 2. in Psal. 1. S. 
 Ambros. lit), x. in S. Luc. xxiv. And 
 St. Gregory gives it for a rule, when pe- 
 tra is read in the singular number, (and 
 so it is here,) Christns est, Christ is 
 signified. 
 
 "s Non deficit, S. Bernard. Serm. 79. 
 in Cant. And Bellarmine himself going 
 to pro-\'e ecclesiam non posse deficere, 
 begins with this very place of scripture, 
 de Eccles. lib. iii. c. 13. 
 
 li De Eccl. 
 
 c. 14. §. Quinto 
 
 si esset. JMulta sunt de fide, qu» non 
 sunt absolute neoessaria ad salutem. 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 195 
 
 that dare adventure it. And 'Bellarmine himself, beside some ^ect. 33. 
 popes in their own cause, (and that in epistles counterfeit, or 
 falsely alleged,) hath not a Father to name for this sense of 
 the place till he come down to Chrysologus, Theophylact, and 
 St. Bernard : of which Chrysologus his speech is but a flash of 
 rhetoric ; and the other two are men of yesterday compared 
 with antiquity, and lived when (it was God's great grace, and 
 learned men's wonder) the corruption of the time had not made 
 them corrupter than they are. And ^ Thomas is resolute, 
 that what is meant here beyond St. Peter s person is referred 
 to the whole church. And the gloss upon the canon law is 
 more peremptory than he, even to the denial that it is 
 'meant of the pope. And if this place warrant not the pope's 
 faith, where is the infallibility of the council, that in your 
 doctrine depends upon it ? 
 
 VI. — The next place is Bellarmine's choice one, and his 
 first; and he says it is a " "^ proper place for proof of the 
 infallibility of general councils." This place is Christ's pro- 
 mise : " Where two or three are gathered together in my ■name, 
 there am I in the midst of them. And he tells us, " The 
 strength of the argument is not taken from these words alone, 
 but as they are continued with the former;" and " ^that the 
 argument is drawn a minori ad majiis, from the less to the 
 greater." Thus : " P//' tiro or three gathered together in my 
 name do always obtain that which they ask at God's hands, 
 to wit, wisdom and knowledge of those things which are 
 necessary for them ; how much more shall all the bishops ga- 
 thered together (in a council) always obtain wisdom and know- 
 ledge to judge those things which belong to the direction of 
 the whole chui-ch !" I answer ; First, it is most true, that here is 
 little strength in these words alone. For, though the Fathers 
 
 i De Rom. Pont. lib. iv. c. 3. debet Inu- ]proprie accommodari. Va- 
 
 k 2. isp.q. 2. A. 3. Probat eiiim ex liis lentia in Thoiii. toni. iii. Disjmt. 1. K. 
 
 vcrl)is, fidem ecclesiit? univer.salis noii i. Puiicto 7. §. 45. 
 
 posse detitere. " IMatt. xviii. 19,20. 
 
 1 Causa 24. c|. 1. c A recta. Non <> Addita argiimentatione a niiiiori ad 
 
 de papa, quia ])apa potest errare. majiis, &c. Bellarni. de (,'oiicil. b'!). ii. 
 
 ni Testimonia propria sunt tria. Pri- c. ■2. §. 4. Et Stapl. Relect. Cont. 6. 
 
 mum est Matt, xviii., &c. Bellarm. de q. 3. A. 4. 
 
 Concil. lib. ii. c. 2. j. 4. — Sed contra, 1> Si duo vel tres con<irr(iali hi 110- 
 
 firniitas ooncilionim ])ro|)rie noii inni- mine niro obtinent sem|)er quod petunt 
 
 titur liis verbis. Stapl. Relert. Contro- a Deo, &c. Bellarm. ibid. 5. ,s 
 vers. 6. q. 4. A. 4. ad 4. — Locus hie noii 
 
 O 2 
 
19(i Archbishop Laud against 
 
 Sect. 33. make different interpretations of this place of scripture, yet 
 ^most of them agree in this, that this place is to be under- 
 stood of consent in prayer ; and this is manifest enough in 
 the text itself. Secondly, I think there is as little strength 
 in them by the argument drawn a miiion ad majus : and that 
 I prove two ways ; first, because though that argument hold 
 in natural and necessary things, yet I doubt it holds not 
 either in voluntary or promised things, or things which de- 
 pend upon their institution. For he that promises the less, 
 doth not hereby promise the greater ; and he which will do 
 the less, will not always do the greater. Secondly, because 
 this argument from the less to the gi'eater can never follow, 
 but where and so far as the thing upon which the argument 
 is founded agi-ees to the less ; for if it do not always agree 
 to the less, it cannot necessarily pass from thence to the 
 greater. Now that upon which this argument is grounded 
 here is, infallible hearing and granting the prayers of two or 
 three met together in the name of Christ. But this infalli- 
 bility is not always found in this less congregation, where two 
 or three are gathered together. For they often meet and 
 pray, yet obtain not, because " there are divers other con- 
 ditions necessarily required," as St. Chrysostom ^ observes, "to 
 make the prayers of a congregation heard, beside their ga- 
 thering together in the name of Christ." And therefore it is 
 not extended to a greater congregation or council, unless the 
 same conditions be still observed. Neither doth Christ's pro- 
 mise, Ero in tnedio, I will be in the midst of them, infer that 
 they, the greater or the less, three or three hundred, have 
 all, even « necessary things, infallibly granted unto them as oft 
 as they ask, if they ask not as well as they ought as what 
 
 q S.Chrys. Hoin.6i. in S. IMatt. xviii. mine Christi. Sed, &c. lib. iv. de No- 
 
 Ubi duo vel tres pari spiritu et volun- tis Ecclesia>, c. 2. §. Tertius non. 
 
 tate collecti sunt, &c. Theoph. in S. s Etsi Christus adsit in inedio talium 
 
 Matt, xviii. S. Cypi'ian. lib. iv. epist. 4. non adest tamen ad omneni effectum, 
 
 S. Hilar, in S. Matt, xviii. aut ad hunc qui est judicare de tide. 
 
 r Quomodo igitur a Patre cuncta non Staph Relect. Controv. 6. q. 3. A. 4 — 
 
 consequentur ? Quia multae sunt cau- Sed nee ill! semper ad Deimi respiciunt 
 
 sae non impetrandi, &c. S. Chrysost. qui in medio eorinn est. Nee Deus sic 
 
 Hom. in S. IMatt. xviii. Et Bellarm. adest iis qui respiciunt ad ipsum, ut 
 
 ipse : Si congregari in noniine C!hristi omnem veritatem doceat in instanti et 
 
 sit nota ecclesiae, non erit ([uomodocun- omni tempore simul, &c. Junius in 
 
 que congregari. Sic enim omues hse- Bellarm. de Concil. lib. ii. c 2. 
 reses, et schismata congregantur in no- 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 197 
 
 they ought. And yet most true it is, that where more or Sect. .^3. 
 fewer are gathered together in the name of Christ, there is 
 he in the midst of them ; but to assist and to grant whatso- 
 ever he shall find fit for them, not infallibly whatsoever they 
 shall think fit to ask for themselves. And therefore St. Cy- 
 prian, though he use this very argument a minori ad ma- 
 Jus, from the less to the greater, yet he presumes not to 
 extend it, as J3ellarmine doth, to the obtaining of infallibility ; 
 but only usoth it in the general way, in which there neither 
 is nor can be doubt of the truth of it : thus : " tif two that 
 are of one mind to God- ward can do so much, what might 
 be done if there were unanimity among all Christians V 
 Undoubtedly more, but not all whatsoever they should ask, 
 unless all other requisites were present. Thirdly, in this their 
 own "great champions disagree from Bellarmino, or he from 
 them. For Gregory de Valentia and Stapleton tell us, 
 "• That this place doth not belong properly to prove an infal- 
 lible certainty of any sentence, in which more agree in the 
 name of Christ ; but to the efficacy of consent for obtaining 
 that which more shall pray for in the name of Christ, if at 
 least that be for their souFs health. For else you may prove 
 out of this place, that not only the definition of a general 
 council, but even of a provincial, nay, of two or three bi- 
 shops gathered together, is valid, and that without the 
 pope\s assent." 
 
 VII. — The last place mentioned for the infallibility of 
 general councils is that, Acts xv., where the apostles say of 
 themselves and the council held by them, ^It seems good to 
 the Iloh/ Ghost and to us. And they might well say it ; for 
 they had infallibly the assistance of the Holy Ghost, and they 
 kept close to his direction. But I do not find that any ge- 
 
 t Si duo unanimes tantutn possunt, Greg, de Valen. torn. ii. in Thorn. Dis- 
 
 qtiid si uiianimitas apud omnes essei ? put. I. q. i. punct. 7. §. 45. And al- 
 
 S. Cypr. lilt. iv. epist. 4. though Stapleton aj)proves this argii- 
 
 u Non ad iiifallihilem certitudineni ment a minori ad inn/us, yet withal he 
 
 alicujus sententise, in quani j)lures in says, Firniitas concilioruni illis (liristi 
 
 nomine Christi consentiunt, locus hie verhis proprie non innititur; quia nee 
 
 evangelii proprie acc/)mmodari debet, Christus ilii de conciliis ejiiscoporum lo- 
 
 sed ad efficaciam conseiisionis ])lurium quitiir, sed de quavis fidelium unanimi 
 
 ad id inipetrandum, quod unaiiiniiter in congregatione. Nee etsi, &c. Staph 
 
 Christi nomine petu)it, si id (juidem ad Relett. Controv. 6. q. 6. A. 4. 
 eorum salutem ex]iediat. Secns enim x Acts xv. 28. 
 
 non modo ex illo loco probabitur, &c. 
 
 03 
 
198 ArMishop Laud aminst 
 
 Sect. 33. neral council since, though they did implore (as they ought) 
 the assistance of that blessed Spirit, did ever take upon them 
 to say, in terminis, in express terms of their definitions. Vi- 
 sum est Spiritui Saiicto et nobis ; It seemed good to the Holy 
 Ghost and to us. Acknowledging even thereby (as I con- 
 ceive) a great deal of difference in the certainty of those 
 things which a general council at after determined in the 
 church, and those which were settled by the apostles when 
 they sat in council. But though I do not find that they used 
 this speech punctually and in terms, yet the Fathers, when 
 they met in council, wei'e confident, and spake it out, that 
 they had assistance from the Holy Ghost ; yet so as that 
 they neither took themselves nor the councils they sat in as 
 . infallibly guided by the Holy Ghost, as the apostles were. 
 And Valentia is very right: " yThat though the council say 
 they are gathered together in the Holy Ghost, yet the Fathers 
 are neither arrogant in using the speech, nor yet infallible for 
 all that.^" And this is true, whether the pope approve or 
 disapprove their definitions, though Valentia will not admit 
 that : the pope must be (with him) infallible, whatever come 
 of it. Now though this be but an example, and include no 
 precept, yet both ^Stapleton and ^Bellarmine make this place 
 a proper proof of the infallibility of general councils. And 
 *^Stapleton says, " The decrees of councils are the very oracles 
 of the Holy Ghost ;" which is little short of blasphemy. And 
 <=Bellarmine adds, " That because all other councils borrowed 
 their form from this, therefore other lawful councils may 
 affirm also that their decrees are the decrees of the Holy 
 Ghost C'' — little considering therewhile, that it is one thing 
 to borrow the form, and another thing to borrow the cer- 
 tainty and the infallibility of a council. For suppose that 
 after-councils did follow the form of that first council exactly 
 
 y Quintum argiimentmn, &c. Ant tertium e jiropriis. De Concil. lil). ii. c. 
 
 sunt ei"go arrogantes, (|uod ])iitaiulum 2. §. Tertiiis locus. 
 
 non est, ant infallibiliter deliiiiunt. b Conciliorum decreta sunt Spiritns 
 
 Respondet Valentia concedendo nen- Saneti oracnla. 8tapl. ibid. Sententia 
 
 tnim : torn. iii. in Thorn. Disp, i. q. i. orthodoxa ]>rin)a. 
 pnnct. 7. §. 45. c Si i]l>i(l concilium e.\ (|uo forinam 
 
 z Firmitas eonnn iiititur exemplo acceperunt omnia alia concilia asserit 
 
 ](rimi concilii. .Staph Relect. C'ont. 6. decreta sna esse decreta iSpiritns Saneti, 
 
 H. 3. A. 4. ad 3. certe idem asserere possunt Cietera legi- 
 
 ii Et Bellann. dicit locum Imnc esse tima concilia, &c. Bellann. ibid. 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 199 
 
 in all circumstances, yet I hope no advised man will say, Sect. i^. 
 there is the like infallibility in other councils, where no man 
 sat that was inspired, as was in this, where all that sat as 
 judges were inspired. Or if any Jesuit will be so bold as to 
 say it, he had need bring very good proof for it, and far 
 better than any is brought yet. Now that all councils are 
 not so infallible as was this of the apostles, nor the causes 
 handled in them as there they were, is manifest by ^'one of 
 their own ; who tells us plainly, " That the apostles in their 
 council dealt very prudently, did not precipitate their judg- 
 ment, but weighed all things. For in matters of faith, and 
 which touch the conscience, it is not enough to say, Volumits 
 et mandamus, We will and command. And thus the apostles 
 met together in simplicity and singleness, seeking nothing but 
 God, and the salvation of men. And what wonder if the 
 Holy Ghost were present in such a council? Nos aliter, &c. But 
 we meet otherwise, in great pomp, and seek ourselves ; and 
 promise ourselves, that we may do any thing out of the ple- 
 nitude of our power. And how can the Holy Ghost allow 
 of such meetings f And if not allow or approve the meetings, 
 then certainly not concur to make every thing infallible that 
 shall be concluded in them. 
 
 VHI. — And for all the places together, weigh them with 
 indifferency, and either they speak of the church (including 
 the apostles) as all of them do ; and then all grant the voice 
 of the church is God's voice, divine and infallible : or else 
 •they are general, unlimited, and appliable to private assem- 
 blies as well as general councils ; which none grant to be in- 
 fallible but some mad enthusiasts. Or else they are limited, 
 not simply into all truth, but all necessary to salvation ; in 
 which I shall easily grant a general council cannot err, suf- 
 fering itself to be led by this Spirit of truth in the scripture, 
 and not taking upon it to lead both the scripture and the 
 Spirit. For suppose these places, or any other, did promise 
 
 il Vide quam pnidenter, agunt non &c. Quid igitur miriim si in hoc coii- 
 
 piwci|)itant setitentiam, sed singula ex- cilia fueiit Spiritns Sanctiis ? t^c. Nos 
 
 penduiit. In rebus enim fidei et qua? aliter convenimus, nenipe cnm magna 
 
 coiiscientiam tangunt, non satis est di- pompa, nosque ipsos qna-rinius ; atque 
 
 cere, \''oluinus et mandamus. Vides nobis pollicemur nihil nobis non licere 
 
 igitur quomodo conveninnt apostoli, de plenitudine jxHestatis. Et qiiomodo 
 
 simpliciter couveniunt, nihil nisi Denm Spiritus Sanrtiis ejusmodi concilia pro- 
 
 qua>runt, et aliorum salute.n expetunt, bare p^.ssit ? Terns in Act. xv. 7. 
 
 O 4 
 
J^OO ArchhisJiop Laud against 
 
 Sect. 33. assistance even to infallibility, yet they granted it not to 
 every general council, but to the catholic body of the church 
 itself; and if it be in the whole church principally, then is it 
 in a general council, but by consequence, as the council re- 
 presents the whole ; and that which belongs to a thing by 
 consequent doth not otherwise nor longer belong unto it 
 than it consents and cleaves to that upon which it is a 
 consequent. And therefore a general council hath not this 
 assistance, but as it keeps to the whole church and spouse 
 of Christ, whose it is to hear his word and determine by it ; 
 and therefore if a general council will go out of the church's 
 way, it may easily go without the church's truth. 
 Consid. 4. I. — Fourthly, I consider that all agree, that the church in 
 general can never err from the faith necessary to salvation : 
 no persecution, no temptation, no Agates of hell (whatsoever 
 is meant by them) can ever so prevail against it : for all the 
 members of the militant church cannot err, either in the 
 whole faith or in any article of it ; it is impossible. For if all 
 might so err, there could be no union between them as mem-' 
 bers and Christ the head ; and no union between head and 
 members, no body, and so no church, which cannot be : but 
 there is not the like consent, that ^general councils cannot 
 err. And it seems strange to me, the Fathers having to do 
 with so many heretics, and so many of thoni opposing church 
 authority, that in the condemnation of those heretics this 
 proposition, even in terms, A general council cannot err, 
 should not be found in any one of them that I can yet see. 
 Now suppose it were true, that no general council had erred 
 in any matter of moment to this day, which will not be found 
 true, yet this would not have followed, that it is therefore 
 infallible and cannot err. I have no time to descend into 
 particulars, therefore to the general still. St. Augustine ^puts 
 a difference between the rules of scripture and the definitions 
 of men. This difference is, Prwpoiiitur scriptura, that the 
 scripture hath the prerogative. " That prerogative is, that 
 whatsoever is found written in scripture may neither be 
 
 e Matt. xvi. 28. Fid. lib. ii. Art. 2. c. 19. §. i Sect. 38. 
 
 f Ecclesia universalis fidem habet in- num. IV. 
 
 defectibilem, &c. Non quidem in gene- h S. August, de Bapt. contra Donat. 
 
 rali synodo congregata, quam aliquoties lib. ii. cap. 3. 
 errasse percepimus, &c. Wald. Doct. 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 201 
 
 doubted nor disputed whether it be true or right. But the Sect. 33. 
 letters of bishops may not only be disputed, but corrected by 
 bishops that are more learned and wise than they, or by 
 national councils, and national councils by plenary or gene- 
 ral : and even ' plenary councils themselves may be amended, 
 the former by the latter." It seems it was no news with St. 
 Augustine that a general council might err, and therefore 
 inferior to the scripture, which may neither be doubted nor 
 disputed where it affirms. And if it be so with the definition 
 of a council too, (as ^ Stapleton would have it,) that they may 
 neither be doubted nor disputed, where is then the scrip- 
 ture's prerogative ? 
 
 II. — I know there is much shifting about this place, but 
 it cannot be wrastled off. 'Stapleton says first, that St. 
 Augustine speaks of the rules of manners and discipline, and 
 this is Bellarmine's last shift : both are out, and Bellarmine 
 in a contradiction. Bellarmine in a contradiction ; for first 
 he tells us " general councils cannot err in '"precepts of man- 
 ners ;" and then, to turn off St. Augustine in this place, he 
 tells us, that if St. Augustine doth not speak of matter of 
 fact, but of right and of universal questions of right, then is 
 he to be understood of "precepts of manners, not of points 
 of faith : where he hath first run himself upon a contradic- 
 tion, and then we have gained this ground upon him, that 
 either his answer is nothing, or else against his own state 
 of the question, " A general council can err in precepts of 
 manners." So belike, when Bellarmine is at a shift, a gene- 
 ral council can and cannot err in precepts of manners. And 
 both are out : for the whole dispute of St. Augustine is 
 against the error of St. Cyprian, followed by the Donatists, 
 which was an error in faith ; namely, " That true baptism 
 could not be given by heretics, and such as were out of 
 the church." And the proof which Stapleton and Bellarmine 
 draw out of the subsequent words (" ^when by any experi- 
 ment of things that which was shut is opened") is too weak ; 
 
 i Ipsaque plenaria ssepe priora a pos- Relect. Cont. 6. q. 3. A. 4. 
 
 terioribus emendari. m De Concil. lib. ii. c. 2. }irincip. 
 
 k Vox ecclesiaj talis est, ut non de n Ibid. cap. 7. §. Potest etiani. 
 
 ea judicemus rectene an secus docuerit. o Quando aliqiio reriim experimento, 
 
 So Stapl. Relect. c. 4. q. i. A. i. (juod clausum erat, aperitur. 
 
 1 De regulis monim et disciplina. 
 
202 Archbishop Laud against 
 
 Sect. 33. for experiment there is not of fact, nor are the words con- 
 dusum est as if it were of a rule of disciphne conckided, as 
 Stapleton cites them, but a further experiment or proof of 
 the question in hand, and pertaining to faith which was 
 then shut up, and, as St. Augustine after speaks, P wrapped 
 up in cloudy darkness. 
 
 III. — Next, Stapleton ^will have it, that if St. Augustine 
 do speak of a cause of faith, then his meaning is, that later 
 general councils can mend, that is, explicate more perfectly 
 that faith which lay hid in the seed of ancient doctrine. He 
 makes instance, that about the divinity of Christ, the council 
 of Ephesus explicated the first of Nice ; Chalcedon, both of 
 them; Constantinople, Chalcedon : and then concludes, "^ in all 
 which things none of (these) councils taught that which was 
 erroneous." An excellent conclusion : these councils and these 
 in this thing taught no error, and were only explained ; there- 
 fore no council can err in any matter of faith ; or, therefon 
 St. Augustine speaks not of an emendation of error, but of 
 an explanation of sense ; whereas every eye sees neither of 
 these can follow. 
 
 IV. — Now that St. Augustine meant plainly, that even a 
 plenary council might err, and that ^ often, (for that is his 
 word,) and that in matter of faith, and might and ought so 
 to be amended in a later council, I think, will thus appear. 
 First, his word is emendari, to be amended ; which properly 
 supposes for error and faultiness, not explanation. And St. 
 Auo-ustine needed not to go to a word of such a 'forced sense, 
 nor sure would, especially in a disputation against adversa- 
 ries. Next, St. Augustine's dispute is against St. Cyprian 
 and the council held at Carthage, about baptism by heretics ; 
 in which point that national council erred, (as now all agree.) 
 And St. Augustine's deduction goes on. Scripture cannot be 
 other than right, that is, the prerogative of it ; but bishops 
 
 1> Il)i(l. c. 4. Nebuli;- involuta. s Sa^pe. 
 
 <l Sensus esc, quod concilia posteriora t Not used, but either for corrii,'ere 
 
 eniendant, id est, pertectius explicant or avferre : aiid so St. Augustiue tises 
 
 fidem in seniiiie antique' doctrina' la- the word, tlontra Faust, lib. xx. c. 21. 
 
 tentem, &c. iStapl. Kelect. Contr. 6. And Bellannine, though he interpret it 
 
 (|. 3. A. 4. in matter of fact, yet equals the word 
 
 r Qua in re nihil crroncuin ulliun with conr.ii/, du C'oncil. 1. 2. c. 8. §. Re- 
 concilium docuit, cVc. s](ond. Quiest. 
 
FisTier the Jesuit. 203 
 
 may, and be "reprehended for it, if peradventiire they ^err Sect. 33. 
 from the truth ; and that either by more learned bishops, or 
 by provincial councils. Here reprehension, and that for de- 
 viation from the truth, is (I hope) emendation properly, and 
 not explanation only. Then provincial councils, they must 
 y yield to general : and to yield is not in case of explanation 
 only. Then it follows, that even plenary councils themselves 
 may be amended, the former by the later; still retaining 
 that which went before, " if peradventure they erred, or made 
 deviation from the truth." And if this be not so, I would fain 
 know why in one and the same tenor of words, in one and 
 the same continuing argument and deduction of St. Augus- 
 tine, reprehendi should be in proper sense, and a veritate 
 deviatum in proper sense, and cedere in proper sense, and 
 only emendari should not be proper, but stand for an expla- 
 nation ? If you say the reason is, because the former words 
 are applied to men and national councils, both which may 
 err, but this last to general councils, which cannot err ; this 
 is most miserable begging of the principle and thing in 
 question. 
 
 V. — Again ; St. Augustine concludes there, that the general 
 council preceding may be amended by general councils that 
 follow, " z^i^pn that is known which lay hid before." Not as 
 Stapleton would have it, lay hid as in the seed of ancient 
 doctrine only, and so needed nothing but explanation; but 
 hid in some darkness or ambiguity, which led the former into 
 error and mistaking, as appears : for St. Augustine would 
 have this amendment made without sacrilegious pride, doubt- 
 less of insulting upon the former council that was to be 
 amended; and without 'swelling arrogancy, sure against the 
 weakness in the former council ; and without contention of 
 envy, which uses to accompany man\s frailty, where his or 
 his friend's error is to be amended by the later council ; and 
 in holy humility, in catholic peace, in Christian charity, no 
 question that a schism be not made to tear the church (as 
 here the Donatist's did) while one council goes to reform the 
 lapse of another, if any be. Now to what end should this 
 
 u Rej)rehendi. y Cedere. 
 
 " Si quid in iis forte ;i veritate de- z Quum cogiioscitiir quod latebat. 
 viatum est. 
 
204 ArchUshop Laud against 
 
 Sect, iz- learned Father be so zealous in this work, this highest work 
 that I know in the church, reviewing and surveying general 
 councils, to keep off pride and arrogance and envy, and to 
 keep all in hunulity, peace, and charity, if after all this 
 noise he thought later councils might do nothing but amend, 
 that is, explain the former? 
 
 VI. — That shift which aBellarmine adds to these two of 
 Stapleton is poorest of all, namely, that St. Augustine speaks 
 of unlawful councils ; and it is no question but they may be 
 amended, as the second Ephesine was at Chalcedon : for this 
 answer hath no foundation but a pcradventure ; nor durst 
 Bellarraine rest upon it. And most manifest it is that St. 
 Augustine speaks of councils in general, that they may err, 
 and be amended in doctrine of faith ; and in case they be 
 not amended, tliat then they be condemned and rejected by 
 the church, as this of Ephesus and divers others were. And 
 as for that mere trick of the ^ pope's instruction, approbation, 
 or confirmation, to preserve it from error, or ratify it that 
 it hath not erred, the most ancient church knew it not. He 
 had his suffrage as other great patriarchs had, and his vote 
 was highly esteemed, not only for his place, but for worth 
 too, as popes wore then. But that the whole council de- 
 pended upon him and his confirmation, was then unknown, 
 an<l I verily think, at this day not believed by the wise and 
 learned of his adherents. 
 Consid. 5. J. — Fifthly, it must be considered, if a general council may 
 err, who shall judge it l St. Augustine is at ^priora a pos- 
 teriorihus, nothing sure that is less than a (^ general council. 
 Why, but this yet lays all open to uncertainties, and makes 
 way for a whirlwind of a private spirit to rufiie the church. 
 No, neither of these : first, all is not open to uncertainties ; 
 for general councils lawfully called and ordered, and lawfully 
 proceeding, are a great and an awful representation, and 
 cannot err in matters of faith ; keeping themselves to God's 
 rule, and not attempting to make a new of their own; 
 and are with all submission to be observed by every Chris- 
 tian, where scripture or evident demonstration come not 
 against them. Nor doth it make way for the whirlwind of a 
 
 a Bellarm. de Concil. lib. ii. c. 7. §. b Sect. 26. num. I. 
 Rtspoiideo primo forte. ' Ibid. d Sect. 32. num. V. 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 205 
 
 private spirit ; for private spirits are too giddy to rest upon Sect. 33. 
 scripture, and too heady and shallow to bo acquainted with 
 demonstrative arguments. And it were happy for the church, 
 if she might never be troubled with private spirit still they ' 
 brought such arguments. I know this is hotly objected 
 against '^Hooker ; the ^author calls him a " Swise protestant," 
 yet turns thus upon him : '' If a council must yield to a de- 
 monstrative proof, who shall judge whether the argument 
 that is brought be a demonstration or not f For every man 
 that will kick against the church will say, the scripture he 
 urges is evident, and his reason a demonstration. And what 
 is this, but to leave all to the wildness of a private spirit ? Can 
 any ingenuous man read this passage in Hooker, and dream 
 of a private spirit I For to the question. Who shall judge ? 
 Hooker answers, as if it had been then made; " ^An argu- 
 ment necessary and demonstrative is such,'' saith he, " as 
 being proposed to any man and understood, the mind cannot 
 choose but inwardly assent unto it.'" So it is not enough 
 to think or say it is demonstrative. The light then of a 
 demonstrative argument is the evidence which itself hath 
 in itself to all that understand it. Well ; but because all 
 understand it not, if a quarrel be made who shall decide it ? 
 No question 'but a general council, not a private spirit: first, 
 in tlio Intent of the author ; for Hooker in all that discourse 
 makes the sentence of the council '^ binding; and therefore 
 that is made judge, not a private spirit. And then for the 
 judge of the argument it is as plain ; for if it be evident to 
 any man, then to so many learned men as are in a council 
 doubtless : and if they cannot but assent, it is hard to think 
 them so impious that they will define against it ; and if 
 that which is thought evident to any man be not evident 
 to such a grave assembly, it is probable it is no demon- 
 stration, and the producers of it ought to rest, and not to 
 trouble the church. 
 
 II. — Nor is this Hooker s alone, nor is it newly thought on 
 by us ; it is a ground in nature which grace doth ever set 
 
 e Pra?fat. p. 29. of a jjretext of seeming evident scrip- 
 
 f Dial, dictus, Deus et Rex. ture or demonstration, as he doth, p. 59. 
 & Cordatus protestans. i Sect. 32. num. II. 
 
 li Prajfat. p. 29. And therefore A. C. k Pra^fat. p. 28. 
 is much to blame after all this, to talk 
 
206 Archbishop Lmid against 
 
 Sect. .^3. riglit, never undermine. And 'St. Augustine hath it twice in 
 one chapter, " That St. Cyprian and that council at Carthage 
 would have presently yielded to any one that would "^de- 
 monstrate truth." Nay, it is a rule with "him, " Consent of 
 nations, authority confirmed by miracles and anticpiity, St. 
 Peter''s chair and succession from it, motives to keep him in 
 the catholic church, must not hold him against demonstra- 
 tion of truth; ^ which if it be so clearly demonstrated that 
 it cannot come into doubt, it is to be preferred before all 
 those things by which a man is held in the catholic church." 
 Therefore an evident scripture or demonstration of truth 
 must take place every where ; but where these cannot be had, 
 there must be submission to authority. 
 
 III. — And doth not Bellarmine himself grant this? for, 
 speaking of councils, he delivers this proposition, "• That in- 
 feriors may not judge whether their superiors (and that in a 
 council) do proceed lawfully or not." But then having be- 
 thought himself, that inferiors at all times and in all causes 
 are not to be cast off, he adds this exception, " P unless it 
 manifestly appear that an intolerable error be committed." 
 So then, if such an error be, and be manifest, inferiors may 
 do their duty, and a council must yield ; unless you will 
 accuse Bellarmine too of leaning to a private spirit : for 
 neither doth he express who shall jndge, whether the error 
 be intolerable. 
 
 IV. — This will not down with you ; but the definition of a 
 general council is and must be infallible. Your fellows tell 
 us, (and you can affirm no more,) " That the voice of the 
 church determining in council is not 'i human, but divine." 
 That is well ; divine, then sure infallible : yea, but the pro- 
 position sticks in the throat of them that would utter it. It 
 is not divine simply, but in a f manner divine. Why but then 
 
 sure not infallible, because it may speak loudest in that man- 
 / 
 
 1 De Bapt. cont. Donat. 2. c. 4. constat iiitolerabilem errorem com- 
 
 •" Uni verum dicenti et demonstranti. mitti. 
 
 n (Jont. Fund. caj). 4. <1 l?tapl. Relect. Cont. 4. q. 3. A. i. 
 
 o Qii* (juideni si tarn nianit'csta mon- i" Divina sno modo. Iliid. And so 
 
 stratui", lit in dul)iun) venire noii jiossit, A. C. too; who liatli openeil his mouth 
 
 piwponenda est omnihus ilhs rebus, (jui- very wide, to prove the succession of 
 
 bus in cathohca teneor : ita si ahipiid pastors in tiie church to be of divine 
 
 apertissinuim in evan{,''elio. Ibid. cap. 4. and infallible authority; yet in the 
 
 p De Concil. lib. ii. c. 8. §. Alii di- close is forced to add, " at least, in 
 
 cunt concilium. Nisi manifestissime some sort." p. 51. 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 207 
 
 ner in which it is not divine. Nay, more : " The church (for- Sect. 33. 
 sooth) is an infaUible foundation of faith Hn an higher kind 
 than the scripture : for the scripture is but a foundation in 
 testimony, and matter to be beUeved ; but the church as the 
 efficient cause of faith, and, in some sort, tlie very formal" 
 Is not this blasphemy ? Doth not this knock against all evi- 
 dence of truth, and his own grounds that says it l Against all 
 evidence of truth ; for in all ages, all men that once admitted 
 the scripture to be the word of God (as all Christians do), do 
 with the same breath grant it most undoubted and infallible. 
 But all men have not so judged of the church's definitions, 
 though they have in greatest obedience submitted to them. And 
 against his own grounds that says it : for the scripture is ab- 
 solutely and every way divine ; the church's definition is but 
 mo niodo, in a sort or manner, divine. But that which is but 
 in a sort can never be a foundation in an higher degree than 
 that which is absolute, and every way such : therefore neither 
 can the definition of the church be so infallible as the scrip- 
 ture ; much less in aliiori pe^iere, in a higher kind than the 
 scripture. But because when all other things fail you fly to 
 this, that the church's definition in a general council is by 
 inspiration, and so divine and infallible, my haste shall not 
 carry me from a little consideration of that too. 
 
 I, — Sixthly then, if the definition of a general council be Consid. 6. 
 infallible, then the infallibility of it is either in the conclu- 
 sion and in the means that prove it; or in the conclusion, not 
 the means ; or in the means, not the conclusion. But it is 
 infallible in none of these. Not in the first, the conclusion 
 and the means : for there are divers deliberations in general 
 councils, where the conclusion is catholic ; but the means by 
 which they prove it not infallible. Not the second, the con- 
 clusion and not the means : for the conclusion must follow 
 the nature of the premises or principles out of which it is de- 
 duced ; therefore, if those which the council uses be some- 
 times uncertain, as is proved before, the conclusion cannot be 
 infallible. Not in the third the means and not the conclu- 
 sion : for that cannot but be true and necessary, if the means 
 be so. And this I am sure you will never grant ; because if 
 
 s In altiori genere, viz. in genere parte formalis. Ibid. q. 4. A. 3. 
 causae efficieutis, atque adeo aliijua ex 
 
208 Archhishoj) Laud against 
 
 Sect. 33. you should, you must deny the infallibility which you seek to 
 establish. 
 
 II. — To this (for I confess the argument is old, but can 
 never be worn out nor shifted off) your great master 'Sta- 
 pleton (who is miserably hampered in it, and indeed, so are 
 you all) answers, "• That the infallibility of a council is in the 
 second course; that is, "it is infallible in the conclusion, 
 though it be uncertain and fallible in the means and proof of 
 it." How comes this to pass ? It is a thing altogether un- 
 known in nature and art too, that fallible principles can 
 either father or mother, beget or bring forth, an infallible 
 conclusion. 
 
 III. — Well, that is granted in nature and in all argumen- 
 tation that causes knowledge. But we shall have reasons for 
 it, X first, because the church is discursive, and uses the 
 weights and moments of reason in the means ; but is prophe- 
 tical, and depends upon immediate revelation from the Spirit 
 of God in delivering the conclusion. It is but the making of 
 this appear, and all controversy is at an end. Well, I will 
 not discourse here to what end there is any use of means if 
 the conclusion be prophetical, which yet is jnstly urged ; for 
 no good cause can be assigned of it. If it be prophetical in 
 the conclusion, (I speak still of the present church ; for that 
 which included the apostles, which had the spirit of prophecy 
 and immediate revelation, was ever prophetic in the defini- 
 tion ; but then that was infallible in the means too,) then 
 since it delivers the conclusion not according to nature and 
 art, that is, out of principles which can bear it, there nuist 
 be some supernatural authority which must deliver this truth; 
 that (say I) must be the scripture. For if you fly to inmie- 
 diate revelation now, the enthusiasm must be yours. But the 
 scriptures, which are brought in the very exposition of all the 
 primitive church, neither say it, nor enforce it. Therefore 
 scripture warrants not your prophecy in the conclusion : and 
 I know no other thing that can warrant it. If you think the 
 tradition of the church can make the world beholden to you. 
 
 t Rclect. Cont. 4. q. 2 ad A. 11. and examine the means. And tliere- 
 
 u And lierein I must needs connneivd fore yon do most advisedly make tlieni 
 
 your wisdom : for you have had many infallible in the conclusion without the 
 
 popes so ignorant, grossly ignorant, a-s means. §. 39. num. V^III. 
 that they have been no way able to sift ^ Ibid. not. 4. 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 209 
 
 produce any Father of the church that says this is an univor- Sect. 33. 
 sal tradition of the church, that her definitions in a general 
 council are prophetical, and by immediate revelation ; pro- 
 duce any one Father that says it of his own authority, that he 
 thinks so; nay, make it appear that ever any prophet, in 
 that which he delivered from God as infallible truth, was 
 ever discursive at. all in the means; nay, make it but pro- 
 bable in the ordinary course of prophecy, (and I hope you go 
 no higher, nor will I offer at God's absolute power,) that that 
 which is discursive in the means can be prophetic in the con- 
 clusion, and you shall be my great Apollo for ever. In the 
 mean time I have learnt this from y yours, " That all pro- 
 phecy is by vision, inspiration," Sec, and that no vision ad- 
 mits discoiu"se ; that all prophecy is an illumination, not al- 
 ways present, but when the word of the ^Lord came to them; 
 and that was not by discourse. And yet you ^say again, 
 " That this prophetic inftillibility of the church is not gotten 
 without study and industiy." You should do well to tell us 
 too, why God would put his church to study for the s])irit of 
 prophecy, which never any particular prophet was put unto ; 
 'Jand whosoever shall study for it shall do it in vain, since 
 prophecy is a '^gift, and can never be an acquired habit. 
 And there is somewhat in it, that Bellarmine, in all his dis- 
 pute for the authority of genei-al councils, dares not come at 
 this rock. <JHe prefers the conclusion and the canon before 
 the acts and the deliberations of councils, and so do we ; but 
 I do not remember that ever he speaks out, that the con- 
 clusion is delivered by prophecy or revelation. Sure he 
 sounded the shore, and found danger here. He did sound it; 
 for a little before he speaks plainly, (would his bad cause let 
 him be constant,) " ^ Councils do deduce their conclusions." 
 What ! from inspiration I '' No, but out of the word of 
 
 y Prophets audieliant a Deo interius Averrorem, &:c. Fran. Picus, 2. Prfenot. 
 
 iiis])iraiite. Thorn. 2. 2k. q. 5. A. i. c. 4. 
 
 ad 3. " I Cor. xii. 10. 
 
 z The iKord of the Lord came vnlo d De Coiicil. HI), ii.c. 12. 
 
 me, is common in the Prophets. " Concilia non hahent, neque scrihiuit 
 
 a St:i])l. Select, cont. 4. ([. 2. p. 473. immediatas revehitiones, tScc. sed ex 
 
 '' Proplieticam revelationem luillo verbo Dei per ratiocinati )nem dediicunt 
 
 pacto haberi posse, vel ope natural, vel conchisiones. Bellarm. de Concil. lib. ii. 
 
 studio, contra Aviccnnam Altfazalem, cap. 12. f. Diointnr. 
 
210 Aixkbiskop Laud against 
 
 Sect. 33. God ; and that ^:>^r ratiocmationem, by argumentation :'' nei- 
 ther have they nor do they write any immediate revelations. 
 
 IV. — The second reason why fStapleton will have it pro- 
 phetic in the conclusion is, " Because that which is deter- 
 mined by the church is matter of faith, not of knowledge ; and 
 that therefore, the church proposing it to be believed, though it 
 use means, yet it stands not upon art, or means, or argument, 
 but the revelation of the Holy Ghost : else, when we embrace 
 the conclusion proposed, it should not be an assent of faith, 
 but an habit of knowledge." This for the first part— That the 
 church uses the means, but follows them not — is all one in sub- 
 stance with the former reason : and for the latter part — That 
 then our admitting the decree of a council would be no assent 
 of faith, but an habit of knowledge— what great inconve- 
 nience is there if it be granted t For I think it is undoubted 
 truth, that one and the same conclusion may be faith to the 
 believer that cannot prove, and knowledge to the learned 
 that can. And eSt. Augustine I am sure, in regard of one 
 and the same thing, even this, the very wisdom of the church 
 in her doctrines, ascribes understanding to one sort of men, 
 and belief to another weaker sort; and h Thomas goes with 
 
 him. 
 
 v.— Now for further satisfaction, if not of you, yet of 
 others, this may well bo thought on ; JNIan lost by sin the 
 integrity of his nature, and cannot have light enough to see 
 the way to heaven but by grace. This grace was first me- 
 rited, after given by Christ: this grace is first kindled by 
 faith ; by which, if we agree not to some supernatural prin- 
 ciples which no reason can demonstrate simply, we can never 
 see our way. But this light, when it hath made reason sub- 
 mit itself, clears the eye of reason ; it never puts it out. In 
 which sense, it may be, is that of 'Optatus, " That the very 
 catholic church itself is reasonable, as well as diffused every 
 where." By which •< reason enlightened (which is stronger 
 
 f Stapl. iliiil. 374. ut credibile, qui demonstrationem non 
 
 g Cont. Fiiiiti. c. 4. capit. 
 
 h Thorn, p. I. (J. 2. A. 2. ad i. Nihil > Rationabilis et ut>iniie diffusa. lib. 
 
 prohibet ilhid, quod secundum se demon- iii. 
 
 strabile est, et scil)ile, ab aHquo accij)! 1^ Vt ipsa fide valentiores lacti, quod 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 211 
 
 than reason) the church in all ages hath been able either to Sect. 33. 
 convert, or convince, or at least ' stop the mouths of philo- 
 sophers, and the great men of reason, in the very point of 
 faith where it is at highest. To the present occasion then. 
 The first, immediate, fundamental points of faith, without 
 which there is no salvation, as they cannot be proved by 
 reason, so neither need they be determined by any council, 
 nor ever were they attempted, they are so plain set down in 
 the scripture. If about the sense and true meaning of these, 
 or necessary deduction out of these prime articles of faith, ge- 
 neral councils determine any thing, as they have done in Nice 
 and the rest, there is no inconvenience, that one and the 
 same canon of the council should be believed, as it reflects 
 upon the articles and grounds indemonstrable ; and "■■ yet 
 known to the learned by the means and proof by which that 
 deduction is vouched and made good. And again ; the con- 
 clusion of a council, suppose that in Nice, about the consub- 
 stantiality of Christ with the Father, in itself considered, is 
 indemonstrable by reason; there I believe and assent in laith: 
 but the same conclusion, "if you give me the ground of scripture 
 and the Creed, (and somewhat must be supposed in all, whether 
 faith or knowledge,) is demonstrable by natural reason against 
 any Arian in the world : and if it be demonstrable, I may 
 know it, and have an habit of it. And what inconvenience in 
 this I for the weaker sort of Christians, which cannot de- 
 duce when they have the principle granted, they are to rest 
 upon the definition only, and their assent is mere faith : yea, 
 and the learned too, where there is not a demonstration evi- 
 dent to them, assent by faith only, and not by knowledge. 
 And what inconvenience in this \ Nay, the necessity of nature 
 is such, that these principles once given, the understanding of 
 man cannot rest, but it must be thus. And the "apostle 
 would never have required a man to be able to give a reason 
 
 credimus intelligere mereamur, iion 2. 2X. q. i. A. 5. C. Id quod est sci- 
 
 jaiii homiuibus sed Deo iiitriaseciis turn ab uiio hoiiiiiie etiam in statu viif, 
 
 mentem nostram firniante et ilbin.i- est ab alio creditum, qui lioc demoii- 
 
 nante. S. August, cont. Epist. Euiida- strare non novit. 
 
 ment. cap. 14. n Concilium Nic»num deduxit con- 
 
 ' Omnia genera ingenionim subdita clusionem ex scripturis. Bellarni. de 
 
 scripliira'. S. Angtist. cont. Faust, lib. Concil. lib. ii. c. 12. §. Sic etiam. 
 
 xxii. cap. 96. " I Pet. iii. 15. 
 
 "' Aliiiain. 3. D. 24. (j. i. ct Thorn. 
 
 P 2 
 
212 Arclihishop Laud ac/ainst 
 
 Sect. 33. and an account of the hope that is in him, if he might not be 
 able to know his account, or have lawful interest to give it 
 when he knew it, without prejudicing his faith by his know- 
 ledge. And suppose exact knowledge and mere belief cannot 
 stand together in the same person, in regard of the same 
 thing, by the same means, yet that doth not make void this 
 truth. For where is that exact knowledge, or in whom, that 
 must not merely in points of faith believe the article or 
 ground upon which they rest? but when that is once be- 
 lieved, it can demonstrate many things from it. And defini- 
 tions of councils ai'e not principiajidei, principles of faith, but 
 deductions from them. 
 Consid -. I- — And now, because you ask, " Wherein are we nearer 
 to unity by a council, if a council may errf besides the 
 answer given, I promised to consider which opinion was most 
 agreeable with the church, which most able to preserve or 
 reduce Christian peace ; the Roman, that a council cannot 
 err, or the protestan<ts\ that it can. And this I propose 
 not as a rule, but lea^ e the Christian world to consider of it, 
 as I do. 
 
 II. — First then I consider, whether in those places of 
 scripture before mentioned, or any other, there be promised 
 to the present church an absolute infallibility ; or whether 
 such an infallibility will not serve the turn, as PStapleton, 
 after much wriggling, is forced to acknowledge ; " One not 
 every way exact : because it is enough if the church do 
 diligently insist upon that which was once received ; and 
 there is not need of so great certainty to open and explicate 
 that which lies hid in the seed of faith sown, and deduce 
 from it, as to seek out and teach that which was altogether 
 unknown." And if this be so, then sure the church of the 
 apostles required guidance by a greater degree of infallibility 
 than the present church ; which yet. if it follow the scrip- 
 ture, is infallible enough, though it hath not the same degree 
 of certainty which the apostles had and the scripture hath. 
 Nor can I tell what to make of Bellarmine, who in a whole 
 chapter disputes five prerogatives in certainty of truth ^ithat 
 
 p Relect. Corit. 4. (i- 2. Notab. 3. a De Coiicil. lib. ii. f. 12. §. ult. 
 Exacta et omnimoda iiif'allibibtate nori Cum lUraque sint iiifallil)ilis veritatis, 
 indiget, spd satis est semel acceptis, fic. ajque cw ta dici possunt. 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 213 
 
 the scripture hath above a council ; and at last conchides, Sect. 33. 
 '' That they may be said to be c(|ually certain in infalhble 
 truth." 
 
 Til. — The next thing I consider is, Suppose this not exact, 
 but congruous infalUbihty in the church ; is it not residing 
 according to power and right of authority in the whole 
 church, (always understanding the church in this place pro 
 communitate pra'latorwm, for church governors which have 
 votes in councils,) and in a general council, only by power 
 deputed " with mandate to determine l The places of scrip- 
 ture with expositions of the Fathers upon them, make me 
 apt to beheve this. " St. Peter,'"" saith ^St. Augustine, " did 
 not receive the keys of the church, but as sustaining the 
 person of the church.'"' Now for this particular, suppose the 
 key of doctrine be to let in truth and shut out error, and 
 suppose the key rightly used infallible in this ; yet this in- 
 fallibility is primely in the church decent, in whose person 
 (not strictly in his own) St. Peter received the keys. But 
 here Stapleton lays across my way again, and would thrust 
 me out of this consideration. He ^grants that St. Peter 
 received these keys indeed, and in the person of the church ; 
 but (saith he) that was because he was primate of the church : 
 and therefore the church received the keys finally, but St. 
 Peter formally ; that is (if I mistake him not) St. Peter for 
 himself and his successors received the keys in his own right ; 
 but to this end, to benefit the church of which he was made 
 pastor. But I keep in my consideration still ; for the church 
 here is taken pro coiiimanitafe prwlaforum., for all the pre- 
 lates, that is, for the church as it is decent and regent, as 
 it teaches and governs : for so only it relates to a general 
 council ; and so "St. Augustine and Stapleton himself under- 
 stand it in the places before alleged. Now in this sense 
 St. Peter received the keys formally for himself and his suc- 
 
 r Quod si ei'desi* universitati non bat ecdesiip, itleoque etsi finaliter ecrle- 
 
 est data iilla authoritas ; ergo iiec con- sia accepit, tameu iormaliter Petnis 
 
 cilio gencrali qnatenus ecdesiain uni- accepit. Relect. C^ont. 6. q. 3. A. 5. 
 versaleiu reprwseiitat. Bellann. de Con- " AA onines dicitiir, Pascc oves, &c. 
 
 cil lil(. ii. c. 16. §. Ex his lialicmus. S. August, de Agon. C'lirist. c. 30. 
 
 '^ I't'trus ])ersonam ecclesi;e catli«ilic;H A\'liicli cannot he sjioken or meant of 
 
 sustinet, et luiic data' sunt claves, fpunn tlie laity. lit Bilson. I'erpet. Govern. 
 
 I'etro data?. Dc Agon. Christ, c. 30. c. S. fine. 
 
 t Setl i)roj)ter primatum riueni gcre- 
 
 '•3 
 
214 Archbishop Laud against 
 
 Sect. 33. cessors at Rome, but not for them only ; but as he received 
 them in the person of the whole church decent, so he re- 
 ceived them also in their right as well as his own, and for 
 them all. And in this sense St. Peter received the keys in 
 the person of the church (by Stapleton"'s good leave) both 
 finally and formally. For 1 would have it considered also, 
 whether it be ever read in any classic author, that to receive 
 a thing in the person of another, or sustaining the person of 
 another, is only meant, finally to receive it ; that is, to his 
 good^ and not in his right. I should think, he that receives 
 any thing in the person of another, receives it indeed to his 
 good, and to his use, but in his right too ; and that the 
 formal right is not in the receiver only, but in him or them 
 also whose person he sustains while he receives it. I will 
 take one of ^Stapleton's own instances. A consul or prime 
 senator in an aristocratical go\'ernment (such as the church"'s 
 is ministerially under Christ) receives a privilege from the 
 senate ; and he receives it as primarily and as formally for 
 them as for himself, and in the senate''s right as well as his 
 own, he being but a chief part, and they the whole. And 
 this is St. Peter's case in relation to the whole church decent 
 and regent, saving that his place and power was perpetual, 
 and not annual, as the consul's was. This stumblingblock 
 then is nothing ; and, in my consideration, it stands still, 
 that the church, in this notion, by the hands of St. Peter, 
 received the keys, and all power signified by them ; and 
 transmitted them to their successors, who, by the assistance 
 of God's Spirit, may be able to use them, but still in and by 
 the same hands ; and perhaps, to open and shut in some 
 things infallibly, when the pope and a general council too 
 (forgetting both her and her rule, the scripture) are to seek 
 how to. turn these keys in their wards. 
 
 IV. — The third particular I consider is. Suppose in the 
 whole catholic church militant an absolute infallibility in the 
 prime foundations of faith, absolutely necessary to salvation ; 
 and that this power of not erring so is not y communicable 
 
 X Stapl. Relect. Cont. 3. q. i. A. i. conciirrente universali totius ecclesiae 
 
 ad 2. conseiisn, iniplicite, vel explicite, vere, 
 
 y Non omnia ilia iiuae tradit ecclesia vel interpretative. Gerson. Tract, de 
 
 sub definitions judicial! (i. e. in con- Declaratione Veritatum quse credendse 
 
 cilio) sunt de necessitate sahitis ere- sunt, &c. §. 4. par. i. pag. 414. 
 denda, scd ilia duntaxat qnaj sic tradit 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. ~15 
 
 to a general, council which represents it, but that the council Sect. 33. 
 is subject to error : this supposition doth not only preserve 
 that which you desire in the church, an infallibility, but it 
 meets 2 with all inconveniences, which usually have done, and 
 daily do perplex the church. And here is still a remedy for 
 all things ; for if private respects, if a bandies in a faction, if 
 power and favour of some parties, if weakness of them which 
 have the managing, if any unfit mixture of state councils, if 
 any departure from the rule of the word of God, if any thing 
 else sway and wi^ench the council ; the whole i^ church upon 
 evidence found in express scripture, or demonstration of this 
 miscarriage, hath power to represent herself in another body 
 or council, and to take order for what was amiss either prac- 
 tised or concluded. So here is a means, without any infring- 
 ing any lawful authority of the church, to preserve or reduce 
 unity ; and yet grant, as I did, and as the c church of England 
 doth, " That a general council may err." And this course 
 the church heretofore took ; for she did call and represent 
 herself in a new council, and define against the heretical con- 
 clusions of the former ; as in the case at Ariminum and the 
 second of Ephesus is evident, and in other councils named 
 by tiBellarmine. Now the church is never more cunningly 
 abused, than when men out of this truth, that she may err, 
 infer this falsehood, that she is not to be obeyed. For it 
 will never follow, she may err, therefore she may not govern. 
 For he that says, Oheij them which have the rule over you, and 
 submit yourselves, for they vatch for your souls^, commands 
 obedience, and expressly ascribes rule to the church. And 
 that is not only a pastoral power, to teach and direct, but 
 a praetorian also, to control and censure too, where errors 
 or crimes are against points fundamental or of great con- 
 
 z Possittamencontingere, .luodquain- Ocham. Dial. pag. 3. lib. iii. cap. 13. 
 vis geiierale concilium \letiiiiret aliquitl •■• iMany of these were potent at Ari- 
 foiitra fideni, ecclesia Dei noii expo- niinum and Seleucia. 
 neretur periculo. Qnia possit contin- '' Detenninationilms qua? a concilio 
 gere quod congi-egati in concilio generali vel pontitice summo fiu!it super iis du- 
 essent panci et viles tarn in re, qtiam bitationilms, quaj snbstantiam fidei con- 
 in hominum rejiutatione, respectu illo- cernunt, necessario credenduni est, dum 
 rum (pii ad illnd concilium generale universalis ecclesia nou reclamet. Fr. 
 minime convenissent. Et tunc illonnn P. Mirand. Theor. 8. 
 leviter error extii-]iaretur ] er mnltitii- ^ Artie. XXI. 
 
 dinem nieliorum et sai>ientiorum et la- '' IJellarm. de Coucil. lib. ii. c. lO. §. 
 
 mosiorum illis. Quibus etiam multi- Tertio concilium sine papa, 
 
 tudo simplicium adliaTcret magis, &c. "' Heb. xiii. 17. 
 
 1* 4 
 
216 Archhishop Laud against 
 
 Sect. 33. sequence : else St. Paul would not have given the rule for 
 excommunication f ; nor Christ himself have put the man that 
 will not hear and obey the church into the place and con- 
 dition of an ethnic and a publican, as he doths : and Solomon's 
 rule is general, and he hath it twice : 3If/ son, forsake not the 
 teaching or instruction of thy mother^. Now this is either 
 spoken and meant of a natural mother, and her authority 
 over her children is confirmed, Ecclus. iii, 2 ; and the fool 
 will be upon him that despiseth her, Prov. xv. 20 ; or it is 
 extended also to our mystical and spiritual mother the church. 
 And so the Geneva 'note upon the place expresses it. And 
 I cannot but incline to this opinion, because tlie blessings 
 which accompany this obedience are so many and great, as 
 that they are not like to be the fruits of obedience to a natu- 
 ral mother only, as Solomon expresses them a\\^ ; and in all 
 this here is no exception of the mother''s erring. For mater 
 ^rrans, an erring mother, loses neither the right nor the power 
 \ of a mother by her error. And I marvel what son should 
 : shew reverence or obedience, if no mother that hath erred 
 ! might exact it. It is true, the son is not to follow his 
 i mother''s error, or his mother into error. But it is true too, 
 • it is a grievous crime in a son to cast off all obedience to 
 ! his mother, because at some time, or in some things, she 
 'i hath fallen into error. And howsoever this consideration 
 \ meets with this inconvenience as well as the rest. For sup- 
 pose (as I said) in the whole catholic militant church, an 
 absolute infallibility in the prime foundations of faith abso- 
 lutely necessary to salvation ; and then, tliough the mother 
 church, provincial or national, may err, yet if the grand- 
 mother, the whole universal church, cannot in these necessary 
 things, all remains safe, and all occasions of disobedience 
 taken from the possibility of the church's erring are quite 
 taken away. Nor is this mother less to be valued by her 
 children, because in some smaller things age had filled her 
 face fuller of wrinkles. For where it is said, that ^Christ 
 makes to himself a church without spot or wrinkle, that is not 
 
 «■ I Cor. V. 5. g Matt, xviii. 17. wherein the fiiitlifiil are begotten by 
 
 h Prov. i. 8. Vitle 8. August. Couf. the iucorrujitible s-eed of God's word. 
 
 2. c. 3. aud Prov. vi. 20. Aiiuot. iu Pn;v. i. 8. 
 
 i Forsake not tliij mother'' s instritc- k Prov. vi. 22. 1 Ephes. v. 27. 
 
 tioii, that i.s, the teaching of tlie church, 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 217 
 
 understood of the church inihtant, but of the church tri- Sect. 33. 
 uinphant. "^ And to maintain the contrary, is a branch of the 
 spreading heresy of Pelagianism. Nor is the church on earth 
 any freer from wrinkles in doctrine and disciphne, than she 
 is from spots in hfe and conversation. 
 
 \. — ^The next thing I consider is, Suppose a general coun- 
 cil take itself to be infallible in all things which are of faith ; 
 if it prove not so, but that an error in the faith be con- 
 cluded, the same erring opinion that makes it think itself 
 infallible makes the eiTor of it seem irrevocable. And when 
 truth which lay hid shall be brought to light, the church 
 (who was lulled asleep by the opinion of infallibility) is left 
 open to all manner of distractions, as it appears at this day. 
 And that a council may err (besides all other instances, 
 which are not few) appears by that error of the council of 
 Constance". And one instance is enough to overthrow a 
 general, be it a council. « Christ instituted the sacrament 
 of his body and blood in both kinds. To break Christ's 
 institution is a damnable error, and so confessed by P Staple- 
 ton. The council is bold, and defines peremptorily, that " to 
 communicate in both kinds is not necessary, with a non ob- 
 stante to the institution of Christ.'' Consider now with me, 
 is this an error or not I qBellarmine and Stapleton, and you 
 too, say it is not; because to receive under both kinds is 
 not by divine right. No ! No sure ; for it was not Christ's 
 precept,^ but his example. Why, but I had thought Christ's 
 institution of a sacrament had been more than his example 
 only, and as binding for the necessaries of a sacrament, the 
 matter and form, =^as a precept ; therefore speak out, and 
 deny it to be Christ's institution, or else grant with Staple- 
 ton, " it is a damnable error to go against it." If you can 
 
 m In id progrediuutiir (Pelagiaiii) ut Art. 2. Untnitli 49. 
 
 (licant vitam justiiriim in hoc seciilo i I'a Eucharist. 4. c. 26. 
 
 nulhim omnino haiiere i>eiratuni, et ex r Bellarm. ii)id. §. Vicesimo profe- 
 
 his ei'desiam ('hristi in hac inoitalitate niiit. 
 
 j'ertici nt sit omnino sine macula et s And now lately, iu a catechism 
 
 ruga. Quasi non sit Christi ecclesia, printed at Paris, 1637, without the 
 
 (|uw in toto terrannn orbe clamat ad author's name, it is twice affirmed thus : 
 
 Deum: Dimitte nobis de/jita nostra, &c. "The institution of a sacrament is 
 
 S, August. 1. de Ha-resiinis, Ha^r. 88. of itself a command." Conference 14. 
 
 n Sess. 13. p. 244. And again, p. 260, " Institu- 
 
 " IMatt. xxvi. I V,o\: xi. 2,^ tion is a precept." 
 
 P Return of I'litruths upon Mr. Jewel, 
 
218 Archhishop Laud against 
 
 Sect. 33. prove that Christ's institution is not as binding to us as a 
 precept, (which you shall never be able,) take the precept 
 with it, ^ Drink ye all of this ; which though you shift as you 
 can, yet you can never make it other than it is, a binding 
 precept. But Bellarmine hath yet one better device than 
 this to save the council. He saith, it is a mere calumny, and 
 that the council hath no such thing, " that the non obstante 
 hath no reference to receiving under both kinds, but to the 
 time of receiving it, after supper ; in which the council saith, 
 the custom of the church is to be observed, non obstante^ not- 
 withstanding Christ's example." How foul Bellarmine is in 
 this must appear by the words of the council, which are 
 these : " " Tliough Christ instituted this venerable sacrament, 
 and gave it his disciples after supper under both kinds of 
 bread and wine, yet, non obstante, notwithstanding this, it 
 ought not to be consecrated after supper, nor received but 
 fasting. And likewise, that though in the primitive church 
 this sacrament was received by the faithful under both kinds, 
 yet this custom, that it should be received by laymen only 
 under the kind of bread, is to be held for a law which may 
 not be refused. And to say this is an unlawful custom of 
 receiving under one kind, is erroneous ; and they which per- 
 sist in saying so are to be punished, and driven out as here- 
 tics." Now, where is here any slander of the council ? The 
 words are plain, and the non obstante must necessarily (for 
 aught I can yet see) be referred to both clauses in the words 
 following ; because both clauses went before it, and hath as 
 much force against receiving under both kinds, as against 
 receiving after supper. Yea, and the after-words of the council 
 couple both together in this reference ; for it follows, ^'•Et simi- 
 liter, and so likewise, that though in the primitive church," 
 &c. And a man, by the definition of this council, may be 
 an heretic for standing to Christ's institution in the very 
 
 t ]\Iatt. xxvi. I Cor. xi. — Mf/j.vri/j.eifoL the council goes on : Et similiter quod 
 
 Toivvv TTJs accTTipiov TavTTjs evToXTJs. in licet in primitiva ecclesia sacramenta 
 
 Liturg. S. Chrys. reciperentiir sub utraque specie a fideli- 
 
 u Licet Christus past civnam institue- lius, tanieu Iwc cousuetudo, ut a laicis 
 
 rit, et suis discipulis administraverit sui) sub specie panis tantum suscipiatur, 
 
 utraque specie panis et vini hoc veue- habenda est pro lege, quam non licet 
 
 rabile sacramentuni, tanien hoc non oh- reprobare. Et asserere hauc esse illi- 
 
 stante, non debet confici post ctenam, citam, est erroneum : et pertinaciter 
 
 nee recipi nisi a jejunis. Here Bellar- asserentes sunt arceudi tanqtiam haere- 
 
 mine stays, and goes no further; hut tici. Sess. 15. 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 219 
 
 matter of the sacrament ; and the chnrch''s law for one kind Sect. 33. 
 may not be refused, but Christ's institution under both 
 kinds may. And yet this council did not err ; no : take heed 
 of it. 
 
 VI. — But your opinion is more unreasonable than this : for 
 consider any body collective, be it more or less universal 
 whensoever it assembles itself; did it ever give more power 
 to the representing body of it, than binding power upon all 
 particulars and itself I And did it ever give this power other- 
 wise than with this reservation in nature, that it would call 
 again and reform, yea, and if need were, abrogate any law 
 or ordinance upon just cause made evident, that this repre- 
 senting body had failed in trust or truth? And this power 
 no body collective, ecclesiastical or civil, can put out of itself, 
 or give away to a parliament or council, or call it what you 
 will, that represents it. Nay, in my consideration it holds 
 strongest in the church ; for a council hath power to order, 
 settle, and define differences arisen concerning faith. This 
 power the council hath not by any immediate institution 
 from Christ, but it was prudently taken up in the church 
 from the ^ apostles' example, so that to hold councils to 
 this end is apparent apostolical tradition written ; but the 
 power which councils so held have, is from the whole catholic 
 church, whose members they are ; and the church's power 
 from God. And ythis power the church cannot further give 
 away to a general council, than that the decrees of it shall 
 bind all particulars and itself, but not bind the whole church 
 from calling again; and in the after-calls, upon just cause 
 to order, yea, and if need be, to abrogate former acts. I 
 say, upon just cause : for if the council be lawfully called, 
 and proceed orderly, and conclude according to the rule, the 
 scripture, the whole church cannot but approve the council, 
 and then the definitions of it are binding ; and the power 
 of the church hath no wrong in this, so long as no power 
 but her own may meddle, or offer to infringe any definition 
 
 X 
 
 Act. XV. In Novo Testamento q, 3. A. 4. ad 3. 
 exemjilum celebnitionis coiiciliorum ab y This is more reasonable a great 
 
 apostolis habemns, &c. Job. tie Tiir- deal than that of I?ellaniiine, de Con- 
 
 recremata, Sum. de Eccles. lib. iii. c. 2. cil. ii. c. iS. Pontiticem noii posse se 
 
 Et tirmitas conciliorum nititur exemplo sul)jicereseiiteatia,'Coactiv;e conciliorum. 
 primi concilii. Stapl. Relect. Cont. 6. 
 
220 Archbishop Laud against 
 
 Sect. 33- of hers made in her representative body, a lawful general 
 council. And certain it is, no power but her own may do it. 
 Nor doth this open any gap to private spirits : for all deci- 
 sions in such a council are binding ; and because the whole 
 church can meet no other way, the council shall remain the 
 supreme, external, living, temporary, ecclesiastical judge of 
 all controversies. Only the whole church, and she alone, hath 
 power, when scripture or demonstration is found and peace- 
 ably tendered to her, to represent herself again in a new 
 council, and in it to order what was amiss. 
 
 VII. — Nay, your opinion is yet more unreasonable ; for 
 you do not only make the definition of a general council, but 
 the sentence of the pope, infallible ; nay, more infallible than 
 it : ^for any general council may err with you, if the pope 
 confirm it not. So belike this infallibility rests not in the 
 representative body, the council, nor in the whole body, the 
 church ; but in your head of the church, the pope of Rome. 
 Now I may ask you, to what end such a trouble for a general 
 council? or wherein are we nearer to unity, if the pope 
 confirm it not ? You answer, (though not in the conference, 
 yet elsewhere,) that the pope errs not, especially giving sen- 
 tence in a general council. And why especially I Doth the 
 deliberation of a council help any thing to the conclusion I 
 Surely not in your opinion : for you hold the conclusion pro- 
 phetical, the means fallible ; and fallible deliberations cannot 
 advance to a prophetic conclusion. And just as the council 
 is in Stapleton's judgment for the definition and the proofs, 
 so is the pope in the judgment of aMelch. Canus and them 
 which followed him, prophetical in the conclusion. The coun- 
 cil then is called but only in effect to hear the pope give his 
 sentence in more state ; else what means this of ^ Stapleton, 
 '"• The pope, by a council joined unto him, accpiires no new 
 power, or authority, or certainty in judging, no more than 
 a head is the wiser by joining the offices of the rest of the 
 members to it than it is without themf or this of '^Bel- 
 
 z Bellarm. tie Concil. lib. ii. c. i6. h Relect. Cont. 6. q. 3. Art. 5. et 
 
 et 17. iliid. Quia ad rompescendos iniportii- 
 
 a Camis de Loi-is, lii). vi. cap. 8. §. nos h;ereticos coiicilii generalis detiiiitio 
 
 Et (|uidem in. Poiitiiiies siiniini in illustrior est, &c. l^t vulgo homimini 
 
 conclusioiie errare iiequcunt, ratiories niagis satisi'acit, &c. 
 
 aiitem, &c. c De Rom. Pont. iv. c. 3. § At contra. 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 221 
 
 larniine, " That all the firmness and infallibility of a general Sect. 33. 
 council is only from the pope, not partly from the pope and 
 partly from the councirf So belike the presence is neces- 
 sai'y, not the assistance ; which opinion is the most ground- 
 less and worthless that ever offered to take possession of the 
 Christian church. And I am persuaded many learned men 
 among yourselves scorn it at the very heart : and I avow it, 
 I have heard some learned and judicious Roman catholics 
 utterly condemn it. And well they may : for no man can 
 affirm it, but he shall make himself a scorn to all the learned 
 men of Christendom, whose judgments ax'e not captivated by 
 Roman power. And for my own part, I am clear of ^^ Jacobus 
 Almain's opinion : " And a great wonder it is to me, that 
 they which affirm the pope cannot err, do not affirm likewise 
 that he cannot sin : and I verily believe they would be bold 
 enough to affirm it, did not the daily works of the popes 
 compel them to believe the contrary." For very many of 
 them have led lives quite contrary to the gospel of Christ ; 
 nay, such lives as no Epicurean monster storied out to the 
 world hath outgone them in sensuality, or other gross im- 
 piety, if their own historians be true. Take your choice of 
 John^ the Thirteenth about the year 966, or of Sylvester 
 the Second, about the year 999, or John the Eighteenth, 
 about the year 1003, or Benedict the Ninth, about the year 
 1033, or Boniface the Eighth, about the year 1294, or Alex- 
 ander the Sixth, about the year 1492 ; and yet these and 
 their like must be infallible in their dictates and conclusions 
 of faith. Do your own believe it i Surely no; for f Alphon- 
 sus a Castro tells us plainly, " That he doth not believe that 
 any man can be so gross and impudent a flatterer of the 
 pope as to attribute this unto him, that he can neither err, 
 nor mistake in expounding the holy scripture." This comes 
 home ; and therefore it may well be thought it hath taken 
 
 nam. Ex quo apparet totam firmita- e Plat.inaet Oimphrius in Vitis eorum. 
 
 tem concilionim legitimornm esse a pon- f Noii enim credo aliquem esse adeo 
 
 titice, non partim a poiititice, partim a impudentem papte assentatorem, iit ei 
 
 concilio. trilmere hoc velit, lit nee errare, nee in 
 
 ^ Et minim est, quod adversarii non interpretatione S. S. literarum halluci- 
 
 asserant eum inipeccal)ilem : et credo nari possit. Alphons. a Castro, advers. 
 
 assererent, nisi (juotidiana summorum Ha?res. lib. i. c. 4. And the Gloss con- 
 
 pontificum opera ad credendum oppo- fesses it plainly in C. 24. q. i. c. A 
 
 situm comj)ellerent. Almain. de Author, recta ergo, 
 Eccles. c. ro. fine. 
 
222 
 
 Archbishoj) Land against 
 
 Sect. ^i. a shrewd purge : for these words are express in the edition 
 at Paris, 1534 ; but they are not to be found in that at 
 Colen, 1539, nor in that at Antwerp, 1556, nor in that at 
 Paris, 157 1. S Harding says indeed, Alphonsus left it out 
 of himself in the following editions. Well ; first, Harding 
 says this, but proves it not ; so I may choose whether I will 
 believe him or no : secondly, be it so that he did, that cannot 
 help their cause a wliit ; for say he did dislike the sharpness 
 of the phrase, or aught else in this speech, yet he altered not 
 his judgment of the thing. For in all these later editions 
 he speaks as home, if not more than in the first, and says 
 expressly, " '' That the pope may err, not only as a private 
 person, but as pope ;" and in difficult cases he adds, that the 
 pope ought to consult ciros doctos, men of learning. And 
 this also was the opinion of the ancient cliurch of Christ 
 concerning the pope and his inf:;dlibility. For thus Liberius, 
 and he a pope himself, writes to Athanasius : " Brother 
 Athanasius, if you think in the presence of God and Christ 
 as I do, I pray subscribe this confession, which is thought 
 to be the true faith of the holy catliolic and apostolic church, 
 that we may be the more certain, that you think concerning 
 the faith as we do; HU ego etiam persuasus sim inhwsitanter, 
 that I also may be persuaded without all doubting of those 
 things which you shall be pleased to connnand me.'"' Now 
 I would fain know, if the pope at that time were or did think 
 himself infallible, how he should possibly be more certainly 
 persuaded of any truth belonging to the faith by Athanasius 
 his concurring in judgment with him : for nothing can make 
 infallibility more certain than it is, at least, not the con- 
 curring judgment of that is fallible, as St. Athanasius was. 
 Beside, the pope complimented exceeding low, that would 
 submit his unerring judgment to bo connnanded by Athana- 
 sius, who, he well knew, could err. Again, in the case of 
 Easter, (which made too great a noise in the church of old,) 
 '^very many men called for St. Ambrose his judgment in that 
 
 ff Harding- liis Detection of Kirors "^"li/a aayw ireTroiOuis & aStaKpiTwsTrepl 
 
 against Jewel, p. 64. S>v a^io7s K(\eii€iu fxol. Liberius in Ej)ist. 
 
 h Crelestinus erravit non solum ut ad ^Vthanas. a])iul Atlianas. torn. i. j). 42. 
 
 privata persona, sed ut papa, &c. Al- edit. Parisieiis. 1608. et edit. Paris, 
 
 phons. a Castro, ad vers. Haeres. lib. i. Latino-Gr. 1627. 
 
 c. 4. Ibid. k Post yEgyptioriim supputationes et 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 223 
 
 point, oven after the definition of tlic chnrch of Alexandria Sect. 33. 
 and the bishop of Rome ; and this I presume they would 
 not have done, had they then conceived either the pope 
 or his church inftillible. And thus it continued down to 
 Lyra's time ; for he says expressly, " ' That many popes, as 
 well as other inferiors, have not only erred, but even quite 
 apostatized from the faith." And yet now nothing but in- 
 fallibility will servo their turns. And sometimes they have 
 not only taken upon them to be infallible in cathedra^ in 
 their chair of decision, but also to prophesy infallibly out 
 of the scripture. But prophetical scripture (such as the 
 Revelation is) was too dangerous for men to meddle with 
 which would be careful of their credit in not erring : for 
 it fell out in the time of Innocent the Third, and Honorius 
 the Third, (as "^Aventine tells us,) " that the then popes 
 assured the world, that destruction was at hand to Sara- 
 cens, Turks, and Mahometans ; which the event shewed 
 were notorious untruths," And it is remarkable which hap- 
 pened anno 1179; ^^^' then in a council held at Rome, Baron, an. 
 pope Alexander the Third condemned Peter Lombard of"'^'"''^' 
 heresy ; and he lay under that danmation for thirty and 
 six years, till Innocent the Third restored him, and con- 
 demned his accusers. Now Peter Lombard was then con- 
 demned for something which he had written about the human 
 nature of our Saviour Christ. So here was a great mystery 
 of the faith in hand, something about the incarnation ; and 
 the pope was in cathedra^ and that in a council of three 
 hundred archbishops and bishops ; and in this council he 
 condemned Peter Lombard, and in him his opinion about 
 the incarnation ; and therefore of necessity, either pope 
 Alexander erred, and that in cathedra^ as pope, in condemn- 
 ing him, or pope Innocentius in restoring him : the ti-uth 
 is, pope Alexander had more of Alexander the Great than 
 of St. Peter in him ; and being accustomed to warlike em- 
 
 Alexaiidrina* ecdesiaj defiiiitionem, ej)i- fjuia nmlti principes et summi ponti- 
 
 scopi ([uoque Roman* ecclesi;e perliteras iices, et alii inferiores invent! sunt apo- 
 
 pleritjue ineam arlhiic ex])ectant senteii- statasse a tide, &c. Lyra in S. Matth. 
 
 tiani, quid existiinem de die Paschse. xvi. iS. 
 
 8. Amlrr. Ill), x. epist. 83. m Kcini. )K)iuifices ex historia, &c. 
 
 1 Ex hoc patet quixi ecclesia iion (pia; mendacissima esse exitus probavit. 
 
 consi&tit in hominilius ratione potestatis Aventin.Annal.Boioruni, lib. vii. p. 529. 
 
 \el dignitatis ecclesiasticje, vel ssecularis, edit. Basil. 15S0. 
 
224 Archbishop Laud afiainst 
 
 Sect. 33. ployments, ho understood not that which Peter Lombard 
 had written about this mystery ; and so he and his learned 
 assistants condemned him unjustly. 
 
 VIII. — And whereas you profess "after, " That you hold 
 nothing against your conscience," I must ever wonder much 
 how that can be true, since you hold this of the pope's infal- 
 libility, especially as being prophetical in the conclusion. If 
 this be true, why do }ou not lay all your strength together, 
 all of your whole society, and make this one proposition evi- 
 dent ? For all controversies about matters of faith are ended, 
 and without any great trouble to the Christian world, if you 
 can but make this one proposition good, That the pope is an 
 infallible judge. Till then, this shame will follow you infal- 
 libly and eternally, that you should make the pope, a mere 
 man, principmm fidei, a principle or author of faith ; and 
 make the mouth of him wdiom you call Christ's vicar sole 
 judge, both of Christ's word, l>e it never so manifest, and of 
 his church, be she never so learned and careful of his truth. 
 And for conclusion of this point, I would fain know (since 
 this had been so plain, so easy a way^ either to prevent all 
 divisions about tlie faith, or to end all controversies, did they 
 arise) why this brief but most necessary proposition, " The 
 bishop of Rome cannot err in his judicial determinations con- 
 cerning the faith.'" is not to be found either in letter or sense, 
 in any scripture, in any council, or in any Father of the church, 
 for the full space of a thousand years and more after Christ. For 
 had this proposition been true and then received in the church, 
 how weak were all the primitive Fathers to prescribe so many 
 rules and cautions for avoidance of heresy, as TertuUian, and 
 Vincentius Lirinensis, and others do, and to endure such hard 
 conflicts as they did, and with so many various heretics ; to 
 see Christendom so rent and torn by some distempered coun- 
 cils, as that of Ariminum, the second of Ephesus, and others; 
 nay, to see the whole world almost become Arian, to the 
 amazement of itself; and yet all this time not so much as call 
 in this necessary assistance of the pope, and let the world 
 know, that the bishop of Rome was infallible, tliat so in his 
 decision all differences might cease ! For either the Fathers 
 
 '• Apiul A. ('. p. r.8. 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 225 
 
 of the church, Greek as well as Latin, knew this proposition Sect. 33. 
 to be true, " That the pope cannot err judicially in matters 
 belonging to the faith," or they knew it not. If you say they 
 knew it not, you charge them with a base and unworthy ig- 
 norance, no ways like to overcloud such and so many learned 
 men in a matter so necessaiy, and of such infinite use to 
 Christendom. If you say they knew it and durst not deliver 
 this truth, how can you charge them which durst die for 
 Christ with such cowardice towards his church I And if you 
 say they knew it, and withheld it from the church, you lay a 
 most unjust load iipon those charitable souls, which loved 
 Christ too well to imprison any ti'uth, but likely to make or 
 keep peace in his church catholic over the world. But cer- 
 tainly, as no divine of worth did then dream of any such in- 
 fallibility in him, so is it a mere dream, or worse, of those 
 modern divines who affirm it now. o x^nA as P St. Augustine 
 sometimes spake of the Donatists, and their absurd limiting 
 the whole Christian church to Africa only, so may I truly 
 say of the Romanists confining all Christianity to tlie Roman 
 doctrine governed by the pope's infallibility : I \erily per- 
 suade myself that even the Jesuits themselves laugh at this. 
 And yet unless they say this, which they cannot but blush 
 while they say, they have nothing at all to say. But what is 
 this to us ? we envy no man. If the pope's decision be infal- 
 lible, leejant., let them read it to us out of the holy scripture, 
 and we will believe it. 
 
 IX. — In the mean time take this with you, that most cer- 
 tain it is that the pope hath no infallibility to attend his ca- 
 thedral judgment in things belonging to the faith. For first, 
 besides the silence of impartial antiquity, divers ^1 of your own 
 confess it, yea, and prove it too, by sundry instances. 
 
 X. — Secondly, there is a great question amongst the 
 learned, both schoolmen and controversei's, " Whether the 
 
 o " The wild extent of the pope's in- quod ei'ultescant si dicant, non habent 
 
 falhbiHty and jurisdiction is a mistake." oninino quod dicant. Sed qtiid ad iios ? 
 
 These are the words of a great Roman Nemini invidemus. Legant nobis hoc 
 
 cathoh'c uttered to myself: but I will de scriptiiris Sanctis, et credimus. S. 
 
 spare his name, because he is living; August, de Unit. Eccles. cap. i 7. 
 and I will not draw your envy upon 'i Papa non solimi errore personali, 
 
 him. sed et errore judiciali ]>otest errare in 
 
 V Puto quod ipsi etiam rideant, quum materia fidei. Almain. lib. de Author, 
 
 hoc audiunt, et tamen nisi hoc dicant, Jvcdes. c. 10. 
 
226 Archbishop Laud against 
 
 Sect. 33. pope coming to be an heretic maybe deposed;" and it is 
 learnedly disputed by ^Bellarmine. The opinions are dif- 
 ferent. For the s canon law says expressly, " He may be 
 judged and deposed by the church in case of heresy." * Joh. 
 de Turrecremata is of opinion that the pope is to be de- 
 posed by the church, so soon as he becomes an heretic, though 
 as yet not a manifest one, because he is already deprived by 
 divine right : and recites another opinion, " That the pope 
 cannot be deposed, though he fall into secret or manifest he- 
 resy.'" " Cajetan thinks that the " pope cannot be deposed 
 but for a manifest heresy ; and that then he is not deposed 
 ipso facto, but nmst be deposed by the church." ^' Bcllarmine's 
 own opinion is, " That if the pope become a manifest heretic, 
 he presently ceases to be pope and head of the church, and 
 may then be judged and punished by the church." Bellar- 
 mine hath disputed this very learnedly, and at large ; and I 
 will not fill this discourse with another man s labours. The 
 use I shall make of it runs through all these opinions, and 
 through all alike. And truly the very question itself sup- 
 poses that a pope may be an heretic. For if he cannot be 
 an heretic, why do they question whether he can be deposed 
 for being one ? And if he can be one, then whether he can 
 be deposed by the church before he be manifest, or not till 
 after, or neither before nor after, or which way they will, it 
 comes all to one for my purpose : for I question not here his 
 deposition for his heresy, but his heresy. And I hope none 
 of these learned men, nor any other, dare deny but that if 
 the pope can be an heretic, he can err. For every heresy is 
 an error, and more. For it is an error ofttimes against the 
 errant's knowledge, but ever with the pertinacy of his will. 
 Therefore out of all even your own grounds, if the pope can 
 be an heretic, he can err grossly, he can err wilfully. And 
 he that can so err cannot be infallible in his judgment, pri- 
 vate or public : for if he can be an heretic, he can, and doubt- 
 
 r De Rom. Pout. lib. ii. c. 30. facto, vel jure diviiio vel humane, de- 
 
 s Si sit a tide deviiis. Dist. 40. Can. positus, sed depoiiendiis. Cajet. Tract. 
 
 Si papa. de Author. Pap;E et Concihi, c. 20. 
 
 t Jure divino papain privatus est, •■ Papa hwreticus niauifestus per se 
 
 &c. Jo. de Turrecr. 1. iv. par. ii. c. 20. desinit esse pa])a et caput, &c. ; et turn 
 
 et Bellarm. de Rom. Pont. hb. ii. c. potest ah ecclesia judicari, et puniri. 
 
 ,g^ Bellarin. de Rom. Font. lib. ii. c. 30. 
 
 u Papa factus hnereticus nou est ipso §. Est ergo quinta. 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 227 
 
 less will, judge for his heresy, if the church let him alone. Sect. 33. 
 And you yourselves maintain his deposition lawful to prevent 
 this. I verily believe "Alb. Pighius foresaw this blow, and 
 therefore he is of opinion " that the pope cannot become an 
 heretic at all." And though '^ Ijellarmine favour him so far 
 as to say his opinion is probable, yet he is so honest as to 
 add, that " the common opinion of divines is against him.*''' 
 Nay, though yhe labour hard to excuse pope Honorius the 
 First from the heresy of the Monothelites, and says that 
 pope Adrian was deceived who thought him one ; yet ^ he 
 confesses, " That pope Adrian the Second, with the council 
 then held at Rome, and the eighth general synod, did think 
 that the pope might be judged in the cause of heresy ; and 
 that the condition of the church were most miserable, if it 
 should be constrained to acknowledge a wolf manifestly raging 
 for her shepherd." And here again I have a question to ask ; 
 Whether you believe the eighth general council or not? If 
 you believe it, then you see the pope can err, and so he not 
 infallible. If you believe it not, then, in your judgment, that 
 general council errs, and so that not infallible. 
 
 XI. — Tliirdly, it is altogether vain and to no use that the 
 pope should be infallible, and that according to your own 
 principles. Now God and nature make nothing in vain ; there- 
 fore either the pope is not infallible, or at least, God never 
 made him so. That the infallibility of the pope (had he any 
 in him) is altogether vain and useless, is manifest. For if it 
 be of any use, it is for the settling of truth and peace in the 
 church in all times of her distraction. But neither the church 
 nor any member of it can make any use of the pope's infal- 
 libility that way : therefore it is of no use or benefit at all. 
 And this also is as manifest as the rest. For before the 
 church or any particular man can make any use of this infal- 
 libility to settle him and his conscience, he must cither know 
 or believe that the pope is infallible : but a man can neither 
 
 w Pighius, EcclesiasticBB Hierarchiae tota synodus octava generalis senserit, 
 
 lib. iv. cap. 8. in causa hieresis j)Osse Kom. pont. judi- 
 
 " Communis opinio est in contra- cari. Adde (jiiod esset miserrima con- 
 
 riuni. Bellarm. de Rom. Pont. Ill), ii. ditio ecclosiie, si lupiim manifeste gras- 
 
 c. 30. §. 2. santcm pro pastore agnoscere cogeretur. 
 
 y De Rom. Pont. lili. iv. c. i r. Bellarm. de Kom. Pont. liii. ii. c. 30. 
 
 z Tamen non possnmiis negare, qiiin §. 5. 
 Adrianus cum Romano concilio, imo et 
 
 Q 2 
 
^28 ' Archhishop Laud against 
 
 Sect. 33. know nor believe it. And first, for belief : for if the church 
 or any Christian man can believe it, he must believe it either 
 by divine or by human faith. Divine faith cannot be had of 
 it : for (as is before proved) it hath no ground in the written 
 word of God ; nay, (to follow you closer,) it was never deli- 
 vered by any tradition of the catholic church. And for hu- 
 man faith, no rational man can possibly believe (having no 
 word of God to overrule his understanding) that he which is 
 fallible in the means, as ^yourselves confess the pope is, can 
 possibly be infallible in the conclusion ; and were it so, that 
 a rational man could have human faith of this infallibility ; 
 yet that neither is nor ever can be sufficient to make the pope 
 infallible, no more than my strong belief of another mans 
 honesty can make liim an honest man if he be not so. Now, 
 secondly, for knowledge; and that is altogether impossible 
 too, that either the church or any member of the church should 
 ever know that the pope is infallible : and this I shall make 
 evident also out of your own principles. For your ^council of 
 Florence had told us, that three things are necessary to 
 every sacrament ; the matter, the form of the sacrament, and 
 the intention of the priest which administers it, that he in- 
 tends to do as the church doth. Your c council of Trent con- 
 firms it for the intention of the priest. Upon this ground 
 (be it rock or sand, it is all one ; for you make it rock and 
 build upon it) I shall raise this battery against the pope's in- 
 fallibility. First, the pope, if he have any infallibility at all, 
 he hath it as ho is bishop of Rome and St. Peter s successor. 
 dThis is granted. Secondly, the pope cannot be bishop of 
 Rome, but he must be in holy orders first ; and if any man 
 be chosen that is not so, the election is void ipso facto, propter 
 error em personw, for the error of the person. ^ This also is 
 granted. Thirdly, he that is to be made pope can never be 
 in holy orders but by receiving them from one that hath 
 power to ordain : this is notoriously known ; so is it also, 
 
 » Stapl. Relect. Cont. 4. q. 2. Notab. 4. e Constantinus ex laiTO papa circa 
 
 >> Omnia sacramenta tribus perfiriuii- an. 767. ejectus papatii. Et Steph. III. 
 
 tur, &c. Decret. p]ngen. 4. in Coiicil. qui siiccessit, habito coiicilio statiiit, ne 
 
 Florent. q"is, nisi per gradus ecclesiasticos ascen- 
 
 "^ Concil. Trid. Sess. 7. Can. i. dens pontificatuni, occnpare aiideret sub 
 
 <1 Bellaiin. de Rom. Pont. lib. iv. c. prena anatbematis. Decret. Dist. 79. 
 
 3. f. Alteram privilegiuni est. c. Nullns. 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 229 
 
 that with you order is a sacrament properly so called : and if Sect. 33. 
 so, then the pope, when he did receive the order of deacon or 
 priesthood at the hands of the bishop, did also receive a sa- 
 crament. Upon these grounds I raise my argument, thus : 
 Neither the church nor any member of the church can know 
 that this pope which now sits, or any other that hath been 
 or shall be, is infallible. For he is not infallible unless he be 
 pope, and he is not pope unless he be in holy orders ; and he 
 cannot be so unless he have received those holy orders, and 
 that from one that had power to ordain ; and those holy 
 orders, in your doctrine, are a sacrament ; and a sacrament is 
 not perfectly given, if he that administers it have not inten- 
 tionem faciendl quod facit ecdesia, an intention to do that 
 which the church doth by sacraments. Now who can possibly 
 tell that the bishop which gave the pope orders was, first, a 
 man qualified to give them ; and, secondly, so devoutly set 
 upon his work, that he had at the instant of giving them an 
 intention and purpose to do therein as the church doth ^ 
 Surely none but the bishop himself. And his testimony of 
 himself and his own act, such especially as, if faulty, he would 
 be loath to confess, can neither give knowledge nor belief suf- 
 ficient, that the pope, according to this canon, is in holy 
 orders. So upon the whole matter, let the Romanists take 
 which they will, (I give them free choice,) either this ca- 
 non of the council of Trent is false divinity, and there is no 
 such intention necessary to the essence and being of a sacra- 
 ment ; or if it be true, it is impossible for any man to know, 
 and for any advised man to believe, that the pope is infallible 
 in his judicial sentences in things belonging to the faith. And 
 so here as-ain a general council, at least such an one as that of 
 Trent is, can err, or the pope is not infallible. 
 
 XII. — ^But this is an argument ad hominem, good against 
 your party only which maintain this council. But the plain 
 truth is, both are errors. For neither is the bishop of Rome 
 infallible in his judicials about the faith, nor is this intention 
 of either bishop or priest of absolute necessity to the essence 
 of a sacrament, so as to make void the gracious institution 
 of Christ, in case by any tentation the priest\s thoughts shoidd 
 wander from his work at the instant of using the essentials 
 of a sacrament, or have in him an actual intention to scorn 
 
 ^3 
 
230 Archbishop Laud against 
 
 Sect. 33. the church. And you may remember, if you please, that a 
 Neapohtan ^bishop then present at Trent disputed this case 
 very learnedly, and made it most evident, that this opinion 
 cannot be defended, but that it must open a way for any un- 
 worthy priest to make infinite nullities in administration of 
 the sacraments. And his arguments were of such strength, 
 Silt cwteros theolocjos dederint in stuporem, as amazed the other 
 divines which were present. And concluded, " That no in- 
 ternal intention was required in the minister of a sacrament, 
 but that intention which did appear oj^ere extenio, in the work 
 itself performed by him ; and that if he had unworthily any 
 wandering thoughts, nay more, any contrary intention within 
 him, yet it neither did nor could hinder the blessed effect of 
 any sacrament." And most certain it is, if this be not true^ 
 besides all other inconveniences, which are many, no man can 
 secure himself, upon any doubt or trouble in his conscience, 
 that he hath truly and really been made partaker of any sa- 
 crament whatsoever, no, not of baptism ; and so by conse- 
 quence be left in doubt whether he be a Christian or no, even 
 after he is baptized. Whereas it is most impossible that Christ 
 should' so order his sacraments, and so leave them to his 
 church, as that poor believers in his name, by any unworthi- 
 ness of any of his priests, should not be able to know whether 
 they have received his sacraments or not, even while they 
 have received them. And yet for all this, such great lovers 
 of truth and such careful pastors over the flock of Christ 
 were these Trent Fathers, that they regarded none of this, 
 but went on in the usual track, and made their decree for the 
 internal intention and purpose of the priest, and that the sa- 
 crament was invalid without it. 
 
 XIII. — Nay, one argument more there is, and from your own 
 grounds too, that makes it more than manifest that the pope 
 can err, not personally only, but judicially also ; and so teach 
 false doctrine to the church, which ^ Bellarmine tells us " no 
 pope hath done or can do." And a maxim it is with you, 
 " That a general council can err, if it be not confirmed by the 
 
 { iMiiiorensis episcoinis fuit. clesiam docet, in liis quiie ad tidem per- 
 
 S Hist. Trident, lib. ii. |i. 276, 777. tinent miUo casu errare potest. I3el- 
 
 Leida', an. 1622. larni. de Rom. Pont. lih. iv. c. 3. §. I. 
 h Summiis pontifex quum totam ec- 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 231 
 
 pope; 'but if it be confirmed, then it cannot err." Where, Sect. 33. 
 first, this is very improper langiuage : for I hope no council is 
 confirmed till it bo finished ; and when it is finished, even be- 
 fore the pope's confirmation be put to it, either it hath erred 
 or not erred. If it have erred, the pope ought not to confirm 
 it ; and if he do, it is a void act : for no power can make 
 falsehood truth. If it have not erred, then it was true be- 
 fore the pope confirmed it. So his confirmation adds nothing 
 but his own assent : therefore his confirmation of a general 
 council (as you will needs call it) is at the most siqmmi.non causa, 
 a sign, and that such as may fail, but no cause of the coun- 
 cil's not erring. But then secondly, if a general council con- 
 firmed (as you would have it) by the pope have erred, and so 
 can err, then certainly the pope can err judicially. For he 
 never gives a more solemn sentence for truth than when he 
 decrees any thing in a general council. Therefore, if he have 
 erred and can err there, then certainly he can err in his de- 
 finitive sentence about the faith, and is not infallible. Now 
 that he hath erred, and therefore can err in a general council 
 confinr.ed, in which he takes upon him to teach all Christen- 
 dom, is most clear and evident. For the pope teaches in and 
 by the ^^ council of Lateran confirmed by Innocent the Third, 
 Christ is present in the sacrament by way of transubstantia- 
 tion ; and in and by the 1 council of Constance, the admi- 
 nistration of the blessed sacrament to the laity in one kind, 
 notwithstanding Chrisfs institution of it in both kinds for all; 
 and in and by the ^ council of Trent, invocation of saints, 
 and adoration of images, to the great scandal of Christianity, 
 and as great hazard of the weak. Now that these particu- 
 lars among many are errors in divinity, and about the faith, 
 is manifest both by scripture and the judgment of the primitive 
 church. For transubstantiation first, that was never heard of 
 in the primitive church, nor till the council of Lateran ; nor 
 can it be proved out of scripture ; and taken properly cannot 
 stand with the grounds of Christian religion. As for commu- 
 nion in one kind, Christ's institution is clear against that. 
 
 i Conrilia freiiernlia a 51011 tifice cmi- ' Concil. Const. Sess. 1.7. 
 
 tinnata errare iiou jxissuiit. liellarni. '" Cdiicil. Triil. Sess. 2;. Deciet. de 
 
 (le (,'oiicil. lil>. ii. c. 2. j. l. Invdratioiip. 
 
 •< Concil. Later. Can. 1. 
 
 Q 4 
 
232 Archbishop Land against 
 
 Sect. 33. And not only the primitive church, but the whole church of 
 Christ kept it so, till within less than four hundred years. For 
 " Aquinas confesses it was so in use even to his time, and he 
 was both born and dead during the reign of Henry the Third 
 of England. Nay, it stands yet as a monument in the very 
 ° Missal, against the present practice of the church of Rome, 
 that then it was usually given and received in both kinds. 
 And for invocation of saints, though some of the ancient Fa- 
 thers have some rhetorical flourishes about it, for the stirring 
 up of devotion, (as they thought,) yet the church then ad- 
 mitted not of the innovation of them, but only of the com- 
 memoration of the martyrs, as appears clearly in I' St. Au- 
 gustine. And when the church prayed to God for any thing, 
 she desired to be heard for the mercies and the merits of Christ, 
 not for the merits of any saints whatsoever. For I much 
 doubt this were to make the saints more than mediators of 
 intercession, which is all that ^you acknowledge you allow the 
 saints. For I pray, is not h/ the merits more than hy the 
 intercession ? Did not Christ redeem us by his merits I and 
 if God must hear our prayers for the merits of the saints, 
 how much fall they short of sharers in the ^ mediation of re- 
 demption? You may think of tliis. For such prayers as 
 these the church of Rome makes at this day, and they stand 
 (not without great scandal to Christ and Christianity) used, 
 and authorized to be used in the Missal. P^'or instance : 
 upon the feast^ of St. Nicholas you pray, " that God, by the 
 merits and prayers of St. Nicholas, would deliver you from 
 the fire of hell."" And upon the octaves of St. Peter and St. 
 Paul, tyou desire God " that you may obtain the glory of 
 
 " Provide in quilmsflam ecclesiis oh- '\ Bellarm. ile Sanctor. Eeatitud. lib. 
 
 servatur, iit popui;) sanguis non detiir. i. 0. 20. §. Ad prirmim ergo locum, &c. 
 Thorn. ]). 3. q. 80. A. 12. (J. So it was r Sunt redemptores nostri aliqiio 
 
 but in some churches in his time — Ne- niodo et secundum alitiuiil. I?ellarm. de 
 
 gare non possumus etiam in ecclesia Indulgent, lib. i. c 4 : et sanctos ap- 
 
 Latina fuisse usinn utriusque specie!, jiellat luimina, de Imagin. Sanctorum, 
 
 et usque ad tempnra S. Thomte dnrasse. lib. ii. c. 20. §. 3. Now if this word 
 
 Vasq. in 3. Disput. ■216. c. 3. n. 38. {rmmen) signify any thing else besides 
 
 o Kefecti cibo potnque coelesti, Dens (iod himself, or the power of God, or 
 
 noster, te su))plices exoramus, &c. In the oracle of God, let Bellarmine shew 
 
 proprio Missarnm de Sanctis, Jan. 15. it, or A. C. for him. 
 Orat. )jost Comnninioiiem. I'Jt Jan. 21. s Ut ejus meritis et precibiis a ge- 
 
 P Ad quod sacriticium suo loco et hennaj incendiis liberenuir. In pro- 
 
 ordine homines Dei nominantur, non ])rio iMissarum de Sanctis, Decemb. 6. 
 tameu a sacerdote, qui sacriticat, invo- t Ut amborum meritis aternitatis 
 
 cantur. S. August. Civ. Dei, lib. xxii. gloriam couseqiiamur. Ibid, ./ulii 6. 
 r. 10. 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 233 
 
 eternity by their merits." And on the "feast of St. Bonaven- Sect. 33. 
 turo, you pray, " that God would absolve you from all your 
 sins by the interceding merits of Bonaventure." And for 
 adoration of images, the ^ ancient cliurch knew it not. And 
 the modern church of Rome is too like to paganism in the 
 practice of it, and driven to scarce intelligible subtilties in 
 her servants' writings that defend it ; and this without any 
 care had of millions of souls, unable to understand her sub- 
 tilties or shun her practice. Did I say the modern church of 
 Rome is grown too like paganism in this point 'I and may 
 this s{)eech seem too hard I Well, if it do, I will give a double 
 account of it. The one is ; It is no harsher expression than 
 they of Rome use of the protestants, and in cases in which 
 there is no show or resemblance : for xBecanus tells us, " It 
 is no more lawful to receive the sacrament as the Calvinists re- 
 ceive it, than to worship idols with the ethnics.'" And Gregory 
 de Valentia enlarges it to more points than one, but with no 
 more truth. " ^ The sectaries of our times," saith he, " seem to 
 err culpably in more things than the Gentiles." This is easily 
 said, but here is no proof : nor shall I hold it a sufficient war- 
 rant tor me to sour my language, because these men have 
 dipped their pens in gall. The other account, therefore, which 
 I shall give of this speech, shall come vouched both by au- 
 thority and reason. And first for authority, I could set Lu- 
 dovicus Vives against Becanus, if I would, who says expressly, 
 " That the making of feasts at the oratories of the martyrs'"' 
 (which a St. Augustine tells us the best Christians practised 
 not) " are a kind of ^ parentaUa, funeral feasts, too much re- 
 sembling the superstition of the Gentiles." Nay, Vives need 
 not say "resembling that superstition," since cTertullian tells 
 
 u Ejiis intei-cedeiuiliiis reeritis ab z Contingit aliquando hareticos circa 
 
 omuibiis nos absolve jieccatis. Ibid. i)hira errare ouaia Gentiles, lit Mani- 
 
 Jiilii i^^. dui'ds, iiiqiiit I'liomas. Quod nos ]>os- 
 
 X In Optatus his time the Christians stiiims vere dicere de nostri temporis 
 
 were much troul)led \\\)o\\ but a false sectariis, (jui culjialjiliter in jduribus vi- 
 
 report, that au image was to be placed dentnr errare. Valentia in 2. 2a;. Disp. 
 
 npon the altar. What would they have i. q. 10. punct. 3. 
 
 done if adoration had been com- a Quod quidem a Christianis melio- 
 
 manded ? &c. Et recte dictum erat, ribus non fit. 8. August, de Civ. Dei, 
 
 si talem famain similis Veritas sequere- lib. viii. c. 27. 
 tur. Optat. li!). iii. ad hnem. *" Ilia quasi jiarentaha superstitioni 
 
 y Sicut non licet cum ethnicis idola (lentilium simillima. I>ud. \'ives Ibid, 
 colere. Becan. L. de Fide Hicret. servaii- <" Quod ergo mortuis Mtai)atur, utiqiie 
 
 fl;, ^., g. pareutatioui deputal-atur, qua? sjiecies 
 
234 A^'chbisJiop Laud against 
 
 Sect. ^3. us plainly, " that idolatry itself is but a kind of parentation," 
 And Vives, dying in the communion of the church of Rome, is 
 a better testimony against you, than Becanus or Valentia, 
 being bitter enemies to our communion, can be against us. 
 But I will come nearer home to you, and prove it by more of 
 your own. For <J Oassander, who lived and died in your com- 
 munion, says it expressly, " That in this present case of the 
 adoration of images, you came full home to the superstition 
 of the heathen." And secondly, for reason I have (I think) 
 too much to give, that the modern church of Rome is grown 
 too like to paganism in this point. For the '^council of Trent 
 itself confesses. That to believe there is any divinity in images, 
 is to do as the Gentiles did by their idols. And though in 
 some words after, the Fathers of that council seem very reli- 
 giously careful that all ^ occasion of dangerous error be pre- 
 vented, yet the doctrine itself is so full of danger, that it 
 works strongly both ujton the learned and unlearned, to the 
 scandal of religion and the perverting of truth. For the 
 unlearned first, how it works upon them by whole countries 
 together, you may see by what happened in Asturias, Canta- 
 bria, Galicia, no small parts of Spain. For there the people 
 (so she tells me that was an eyewitness, and that since the 
 council of Trent) " are so addicted to their worm-eaten and 
 deformed images, that when the bishops commanded new 
 and handsomer images to be set up in their rooms, the poor 
 people cried for their old, would not look up to their new, as 
 if they did not represent the same thing." And though he 
 say this is by little and little amended, yet I believe there is 
 very little amendment. And it works upon the learned too 
 more than it should. For it wrought so far upon Lamas 
 
 proinJe idi)l<)lati-i,i! est, qiioniain et ido- rejecting the oijinioii of Tliomas, and 
 
 lolatria parentatiouis est species. Tert. other suijerstitions concerning images, 
 
 lii). de Spectacuhs, c. 12. Ii)id. 
 
 d Maniiestius est, quam ut imiltis e Non quod credatur inesse aliqua in 
 
 verbis expliciui deheat, inuigiuum et iis divinitas, et vehiti ohm fiebat a gen- 
 
 simulachrormn iiiltuiu nimiuni inva- tibus. Cone. Trid. Sess. 25. Decret. 
 
 hiisse, et affectioni seti potius supersti- de Invocat. 
 
 tioni popuH pkis satis indultiim esse, ita, f Et nidibus i)L'riciilosi erroris occa- 
 
 \\t ad summam adorationeni, qua? vel a sionem, iVc. Ibid. 
 
 paganis, suis siniulachris exliiberi con- S Va a<leo gens affecta est truncis 
 
 suevit, <S:c. Cassand. Consult. Art. 21. corrosis et deformibus imaginibus, ut, 
 
 e. de Imaginibus Where he names me teste, q\ioties episcopi deceiitiores 
 
 divers of your own, as namely, Du- ponere juljent, veteres suas ]K'tant ])lo- 
 
 rantus IMiniatensis episi.'opus, .Joiui Ilil- rantes, iS:c. Ilieron. Lamas t-iuuma, 
 
 let, Gersou, Durand, Ilolkot, and liiel, p. 3. c. .3. 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 235 
 
 himself, who bemoaned the former passage, as that he deh- Sect. 33. 
 vers this doctrine : " ^ That the images of Christ, the blessed 
 Virgin, and the saints, are not to be worshipped, as if there 
 were any divinity in the images, as they are material things 
 made by art, but only as they represent Christ and the saints; 
 for else it were idolatry." So then belike, according to the 
 divinity of this casuist, a man may worship images, and ask 
 of them, and put his trust in them, as they represent Christ 
 and the saints. For so there is divinity in them, though not 
 as things, yet as representers. And what, I pray, did or could 
 any pagan priest say more than this I for the proposition 
 resolved is this : " The images of Christ and the saints, as 
 they represent their exemplars, have deity or divinity in 
 them." And now I pray A. C. do you be judge, whether this 
 proposition do not teach idolatry, and whether the modern 
 church of Rome be not grown too like to paganism in this 
 point. For my own part I heartily wish it were not, and 
 that men of learning would not strain their wits to spoil the 
 truth and rent the peace of the church of Christ, by such 
 dangerous, such superstitious vanities ; for better they are 
 not, but they may be worse : nay, these and their like have 
 given so great a scandal among us, to some ignorant, though, 
 I presume, well meaning men, that they are afraid to testify 
 their duty to God, even in his own house, by any outward ges- 
 ture at all. Insomuch that those very ceremonies, which by 
 the judgment of godly and learned men have now long conti- 
 nued in the practice of this church, suffer hard measure for 
 the Romish superstition''s sake. But I will conclude this 
 point with the saying of B. Rhenanus : " ' Who could endure 
 the people," says he, " rushing into the church like swine into a 
 sty I Doubtless ceremonies do not hurt the people, but profit 
 them, so there be a mean kept, and the by be not put for the 
 main, that is, so we place not the principal pai't of our piety 
 in them." 
 
 '' Imagines Christi et S. matris ejus i Quis ferat populum in templuin 
 
 et sanctorum non sunt venerandte, ac irriientem, ceu in haram sties ? Certe 
 
 si in ijisis imaginibus esset divinitas, non olsunt po{)ulo ceremonise, sed pro- 
 
 secundum quod sunt materia arte efii- sunt, si modus in eis servettir, et cavea- 
 
 giata, et non secundum (juod repraesen- mus ne Trdpepya raiy €pya>v loco haliean- 
 
 tant Cln'istum, et sanctos, &c. Sic enim tur, lioc est, ne i)r;ecipuam pietatem in 
 
 adorare, vel petere ali<|uid ab iis, esset illis collocenuis. Rhen. annot. in Ter- 
 
 idololatria. Ijam. ibid. tul. de Cor. Mil. 
 
236 Archbishop Laud against 
 
 Sect. 33-35. The conference grows to an end, and I must meet it again 
 ere we part. For you say, 
 
 iF. After this (we all rising) the lady asked the 33. whether 
 she miffht be saved in the Roman faith ? He answered, 
 she might. 
 Sect. 34. B. What ! not one ^ answer perfectly related ! My answer 
 to this was general, for the ignorant that could not discern 
 the errors of that church, so they held the foundation, and 
 conformed themselves to a religious life. ]3ut why do you 
 not speak out what I added in this particular, " That it 
 must needs go harder with the lady, even in point of salva- 
 tion, because she had been brought to understand very much, 
 for one of her condition, in these controverted causes of reli- 
 gion ; and a person that comes to know nuich had need 
 carefully bethink himself, that he oppose not known truth 
 ao-ainst the church that made him a Christian V for salvation 
 may be in the church of Rome, and yet they not find it that 
 A. C. p. 64. make surest of it. Here A. C. is as confident as the Jesuit 
 himself, " that I said expressly, that the lady might be 
 saved in the Roman faith." Truly, it is too long since now 
 for me to speak any more than I have already upon my 
 memory; but this I am sure of, that whatsoever 1 said of 
 her, were it never so particular, yet was it under the con- 
 ditions before expressed. 
 
 S-. 1 bade her mark that. 
 Sect. 35. ^- I.— This answer (1 am sure) troubles not you. But 
 it seems you would fain have it lay a load of envy upon me, 
 that you profess you bade the lady so carefully mark that. 
 Well, you bade her mark that; for what? for some great 
 matter, or for some new I Not for some new sure : for the 
 protestants have ever been ready for truth and in charity to 
 grant as nuich as might be ; and therefore from the begin- 
 ning many 1 learned men granted this. So that you needed 
 
 k Cave lie duni vis alium iiotare citaiite Bellaniiiiio, de Notis lOnles. lib. 
 
 culpa-, ii.se noteris calumni;.-. S. Hier. iv. c. 1 6. §. penult. Kt Fiel.l. Appen- 
 
 advers. Pelai^naiios, lib. iii. dice, par. 3. c. 2. Et .los. Hall bishop 
 
 1 Nos fatenim- sub papatu plunmiini of Exeter, lib. Of the Old Helii^uni, c. i. 
 
 esse boni, inio omiie boniuii Thris- " Many holding t'hrist the foundation 
 
 tianum, atque eliam illinr ad nos deve- aright, and groaning under the burden 
 
 jiisse, &c. Luther eontra Anabai)tist. of jiopish trash, iS:c. by a general re- 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 
 
 237 
 
 not have put such a serious " mark that'' upon my speech, Sect. 35, 
 as if none before had, or none but I would speak it. And if 
 your " mark that"" were not for some new matter, was it for 
 some gi-eat ? Yes sure, it was ; for what greater than sal- 
 vation ? But then. I pray, mark this too, that '• might bo 
 saved" grants but a "^ possibility, no sure or safe way to sal- 
 vation. The possibility I think cannot be denied, the igno- 
 rant's especially, because they hold the foundation, and cannot 
 survey the building ; and the foundation can deceive no man 
 that rests upon it : but a secure way they cannot go that hold 
 with such corruptions when they know them. Now whether 
 it be wisdom, in such a point as salvation is, to forsake a 
 church in the which the ground of salvation is firm, to follow 
 a church in which it is but possible one may be saved, but 
 verv probable he may do worse, if he look not well to the 
 foundation, judge ye. I am sure "St. Augustine thought 
 it was not, and judged it a great sin, in point of salvation, 
 
 pentance, and assured faith in their 
 Saviour, did find i'avo\ir uith the Lord." 
 I). Geo. Abliot, late archhishop of Can- 
 terhury, Answer to Hill, ad Ration. 
 
 " For my part I dare not deny the 
 possibility of their salvation, who ha^'e 
 i)een the chiefest instruments of ours, 
 &c." Hooker, in his Discourse of Jus- 
 tificat. §. I 7. " In former times a man 
 might hold the general doctrine of those 
 churches wherein our Fathers lived, 
 and he saved ; and yet since the coun- 
 cil of Trent, some are found in it in 
 such degree of orthodoxy, as we may 
 well hope of their salvation." Field. Ec- 
 cles. lib. iii. c. 47. 
 
 " The Ijatin or western church, sub- 
 ject to the Romish tyranny, was a true 
 church, in which a saving profession 
 of the truth of Christ was found." Jos. 
 Hall bishop of Exeter, lib. Of the Old 
 Religion, tine, in his advertisement to 
 the reader, p. 20?. 
 
 Non pauci retinuerunt Christmn fun- 
 damentum, &c. Morun^us, Tract, de 
 
 Ecclesia, c. g. fine Inter sordes istas, 
 
 ista qua^ summo cum ])ericulo expec- 
 tetur salus, non i])sorum additamuntis, 
 sed iis, qme nobiscimi haiient commu- 
 nia, fundamentis est attribuenda. Jo. 
 Prideaux, Lectione 9. fine. — Papa ali- 
 quara adhuc religionis formam relin- 
 (juit, spem vitffi steruae non tollit, &c. 
 
 Calv. Instruct, advers. Libertines, c. 4. 
 
 m Here A. C. gets another snatch, 
 and tells us, " That to grant a possi- 
 iiilitvof salvation in the Roman church, 
 is the free confession of an adversary, 
 and therefore is of force against us, and 
 extorted by truth : but to say that sal- 
 vation is more securely and easily to 
 be had in the protestant faith, that is 
 but their partial opinion in their own 
 behalf, and of no force, especially with 
 Roman catholics." I easily believe this 
 latter part, that this, as A. G. and the 
 rest use the matter with their prose- 
 lytes, shall be of little or no force with 
 Roman catholics. Rut it will behove 
 them that it be of force : for let any 
 inditferent man weigh the necessary re- 
 quisites to salvation, and he shall find 
 this no partial o])inion, but very plain 
 and real verity, that the protestant, 
 living according to his belief, is upon 
 the safer way to heaven. And as for 
 my confession, let them enforce it as 
 far as they can against me, so they 
 observe my limitations ; which if they 
 do, A. C. and his fellows will (of all 
 the rest) have but little comfort in such 
 a limited possibility. 
 
 " De Bapt. cont. Don. lib. i. c. .^. 
 (Jraviter peccarent in rebus ad salutem 
 animre pertinentibus, &c. eo solo quod 
 certis incerta praiponerent. 
 
238 ArMishop Laud ar/mnsf 
 
 Sect. 35. for a man to prefer incerta certis, uncertainties and naked 
 possibilities before an evident and certain course. And oBel- 
 larmine is of opinion, and that in the point of justification, 
 " that in regard of the uncertainty of our own righteous- 
 ness, and of the danger of vainglory, tutissimnm est, it is 
 safest to repose our whole trust in the mercy and goodness 
 of God." And surely, if there be one safer way than another, 
 as he confesses there is, he is no wise man, that in a matter 
 of so great moment will not betake himself to the safest way. 
 And therefore even you yourselves in the point of condignity 
 of merit, though you write it and preach it boisterously to 
 the people, yet you are content to die, renouncing the con- 
 dignity of all your own merits, and trust to Christ's. Now 
 surely, if you will not venture to die as you live, live and 
 believe in time as you mean to die. 
 
 II. — And one thing more, because you bid mark this, let 
 me remember to tell you for the benefit of others. Upon 
 this very point — '' that we acknowledge an honest ignorant 
 papist may be saved" — you and your like work upon the 
 advantage of our charity and your own want of it to abuse 
 the weak. For thus I am told you work upon them : " You 
 see the protestants (at least many of them) confess there 
 may be salvation in our church; we absolutely deny there 
 is salvation in theirs : therefore it is safer to come to ours 
 than to stay in theirs ; to be where almost all grant salva- 
 tion, than where the greater part of the world deny it." 
 This argument is very prevailing with men that cannot weigh 
 it, and with women especially that are put in fear by P violent 
 (though causeless) denying heaven unto them. And some 
 of your party since this have set out a book called " Charity 
 mistaken ;" but beside the answer fully given to it, this alone 
 is sufficient to confute it. First, that in this our charity | 
 (whatever yours be) is not mistaken, unless the charity of 
 
 o Propter incertitudinem j)ropri;ie time. Qiiosdam scinnis, &c. ad iracun- 
 
 jiistitise, et periciiluni iiianis glorirt», diam suam evaiigeliuin pertraheiites, 
 
 tutissimum est tiduciam totani in sola &c. quilms si potestas ea obtigisset tit 
 
 Dei niisericordia et l)enigiiitate repo- iioiuiullos geheniiH' traderent, orbeiu 
 
 iiere. Bellarm. de Jiistif. lib. v. c. 7. §. quofpiennivorsum coiisumpsissent. Just. 
 
 Sit tertia propositio. ]\Iartyi". Epist. ad Zeiiam et Seremim. 
 
 1> And this jiiece of cuniiiiig to affright And here it is, ad iracundiani suam 
 
 the weak was in use in .Instin IVIartyr's ccclesiani pertraheiites, &c. 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 239 
 
 tho churcli herself were mistaken in the case of the Donatists, Sect. 35. 
 as shall Rafter appear. Secondly, even mistaken charity (if 
 such it were) is far better than none at all. And if the 
 mistaken be ours, the none is yours. Yea, but A. C. tells A. c. p. 56. 
 us, " That this denial of salvation is grounded upon charity, 
 as were the like threats of Christ and the holy Fathers. For 
 there is but one true faith, and one true church, and out of 
 that there is no salvation ; and he that will not hear the church., 
 let him he as a heathen and a publican'^ : therefore he says, it 
 is more charity to forewarn us of the danger by these threats, 
 than to let us run into it through a false security." It is 
 true that there is but one true faith, and but one true 
 church; but that one, both faith and church, is the ^catholic 
 Christian, not the particular Roman. And this catholic Chris- 
 tian church, he that will not both hear and obey, yea, and 
 the particular church in which he lives too, so far as it in 
 necessaries agrees with the universal, is in as bad condition 
 as a heathen and a publican, and perhaps in some respects 
 worse ; and were we in this case, we should thank A. C. for 
 giving us warning of our danger. But it is not so : for he 
 thunders out all these threats and denial of salvation, because 
 we join not with the Roman church in all things, as if her 
 corruptions were part of the catholic faith of Christ. So the 
 whole passage is a mere begging of the question, and then 
 threatening upon it, without all ground of reason or charity. 
 In the mean time let A. C. look to himself, that in his false 
 security he run not into the danger and loss of his own 
 salvation, while he would seem to take such care of ours. 
 But though this argument prevails with the weak, yet it is 
 much stronger in the cunning than the true force of it : for 
 all arguments are very moving, that lay their ground upon 
 'the adversaries' confession, especially if it be confessed and 
 avouched to be true. But if you would speak truly, and say, 
 
 a Sect. 35. rmm. III. its qualities and conditions : if you leave 
 
 r I\Iatt. xviii. 17. out or change these, you wrong the 
 
 s And this is proved by the Creed, confession, and then it is of no force; 
 
 in which we profess our belief of the and so doth A. C. here. And though 
 
 catholic, not of the Roman church. Bellarmine makes the confession of the 
 
 t " This is a free confession of the adversary a note of the true church, de 
 
 adversaries' argument against them- Notis Eccles. lib. iv. c. 16, yet in the very 
 
 selves, and therefore is of force." A. C. l)eginning, where he lays his ground, 
 
 p. 64. But every confession of adver- §. i. he lays it in a i)lain i^Wacy a secun- 
 
 saries or others is to he taken with dnm (juid ad simpHcitcr 
 
240 Archbishop Laud apainst 
 
 Sect. 35. Many protestants indeed confess there is salvation possible 
 to be attained in the Roman church ; but they say withal 
 that the errors of that church are so many ("and some so 
 great as weaken the foundation) that it is very hard to go 
 that way to heaven, especially to them that have had the 
 truth manifested ; the heart of this argument were utterly 
 broken. Besides, the force of this argument lies upon two 
 things, one directly expressed, the other but as upon the by. 
 
 III. — That which is expressed is, ^^'e and our adversaries 
 consent that there is salvation to some in the Roman church. 
 What ! would you have us as malicious (at least as rash) as 
 yourselves are to us, and deny you so much as possibility of 
 salvation i If we should, we might make you in some things 
 strain for a proof. Bnt we have not so learned Christ, as 
 either to return evil for evil in this heady course, or to deny 
 salvation to some ignorant silly soids, whose humble, peace- 
 able obedience makes them safe among any part of men that 
 profess the foundation, Christ : and therefore seek not to help 
 our cause by denying this comfort to silly Christians, as you 
 most fiercely do where you can come to work upon them. 
 And this was an old trick of the Donatists ; for in the point 
 of baptism, (whether that sacrament was ti*ue in the catholic 
 church or in the part of Donatus,) they exhorted all to be 
 baptized among them. ^Vhy ? Because both j^arts granted 
 that baptism was true among the Donatists ; which that 
 peevish sect most unjustly denied the sound part, as ''St. 
 Augustine delivers it. I would ask now. Had not the ortho- 
 dox true baptism among them, because the Donatists denied 
 it injuriously ? Or should tlie orthodox against truth have 
 denied baptism among the Donatists, either to cry quittance 
 with them, or that their argument might not be the stronger 
 because both parts granted I But mark this, how far you run 
 
 u For they are no mean differences much, if not more than Bellarmine. 
 that are between ns, by Bellarmine's " Thus we cathohcs hohl all points, in 
 own confession. Agendmn est non de wliich ];rotestants differ from ns in doc- 
 rebus levibus, sed de gravissimis quEes- trine of faith, to be fundamental and 
 tionibus qu<e ad ipsa fidei fundamenta necessary to be believed, or at least not 
 pertinent, &c. Bellarm. in pni-fat. denied." A. C. Relation of the first 
 operibus prsefixa, §. p,. Aiid therefore Conference, p. 28. 
 the errors in them and the corru])tions x Esse vero apud Donatistas haptis- 
 of them cannot be of small consequence, mum, et illi asserunt, et nos concedi- 
 by your own confession. Yes, by your mns, Sic. De Bapt. cent. I^onat. lib. i. 
 own indeed : for vou A. C. say full as c. .^. 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 241 
 
 from all common principles of Christian peace, as well as Sect. 35. 
 Christian truth, while you deny salvation most unjustly to us, 
 from which you are further off yourselves. Besides, if this 
 were or could be made a concluding argument, I pray, why 
 do not you believe with us in the point of the eucharist I 
 for all sides agree in the faith of the church of England, 
 that in the most blessed sacrament the worthy receiver is 
 by his y faith made spiritually partaker of the true and real 
 body and blood of Clu-ist ^ truly, and really, and of all the 
 benefits of his passion. Your Roman catholics add a manner 
 of this his presence, transubstantiation, which many deny ; and 
 the Lutherans a manner of this presence, consubstantiation, 
 which more deny. If the argument be good, then even for 
 this consent, it is safer communicating with the church of 
 England than with the Roman or Lutheran, because all agree 
 in this truth, not in any other opinion. Nay, ^Suarez himself, 
 and he a very learned adversary, (what say you to this, A. C. ? A. C. p. 64, 
 doth truth force this from him?) confesses plainly, '' That to ^^■ 
 believe transubstantiation is not simply necessary to salvation ;" 
 and yet he knew well the church had determined it. And 
 bBellarmine, after an intricate, tedious, and almost inexpli- 
 cable discourse about an adductive conversion, (a thing which 
 neither divinity nor philosophy ever heard of till then,) is at 
 last forced to come to this: " '^Whatsoever is concerning the 
 
 y Corpus Christ! maiulucatnr in the words irult/ and really. For tliat 
 
 ccEna, &c. tantum crelesti et spirituali blessed sacrament, received as it ought 
 
 rations : medium auteni quo corpus to be, doth truly and really exhibit and 
 
 Christ! accipitur et nianducatur in ccena, apply the body and the blood of Christ 
 
 fides est. Eccl. Angl. Art. XXVIII — to the receiver. So bishop "White in 
 
 '^' After a spiritual manner by faith on our his defence against T. W. P. edit, 
 
 liehalf, and by the working of the Holy London, 1617. p. 1^8. And Calvin in 
 
 Ghost on tlie behalf of Christ." Fulk. in i Cor. x. 3. Vera datur, &c. And 
 
 1 Cor. xi. p. 528. — Christus seipsum again in 1 Cor. xi. 24. Neqiie enim 
 
 omnibus bonis suis in crena offert, et mortis tantum et resurrectionis suas be- 
 
 nos eum recipimus fide, &c. Calv. Instit. nertcium nobis olfert Christus, sed cor- 
 
 iv. c. 17. §. 5. Et Hooker, Eccl. Pol. pus ijisum in quo passus est, et re- 
 
 b. V. c. 67. §. 6. surrexit. C'oncludo realiter (ut vulgo 
 
 And say not you the same with us ? loquuntur), hoc est, vere nobis in ccpna 
 
 Spiritualis manducatio, <iua? per animam datur Christi corpus, ut sit animis nos- 
 
 iit, ad Christi carnem in sacramento tris in cibum salutareiii, &c. 
 pertingit. Cajet. torn. ii. Opusc. de Eu- a Hoc totuni pendet ex principiis 
 
 char. Tract. 2. cap. _;. — Sed spiritualiter, metaphysicis et |>hilosophicis, et ad tidei 
 
 id est, invisibiliter, et per virtutem doctrinam noii est necessariuni. Suarez 
 
 Spiritus Sancti. Thom. p. 3. q. 75. in 3. torn. Disput. 50. §. 2. 
 A. I. ad T. — Spiritualiter manducandus 'J Bellarm. de Euchar. lib. iii. c. 18. 
 
 est per fideni et charitatem. Tena. in §. Ex his colligimus. 
 Heb. xiii. dithcultate 8. c Sed (juidquid sit de niodis loquendi, 
 
 z I would have no man troubled at illiid tenendum est, conversionem panis 
 
 R 
 
242 Archbishop Laud against 
 
 Sect. 35. manner and forms of speech, ilhid tenendum est, this is to be 
 held, that the conversion of the bread and wine into the body 
 and blood of Christ is substantial, but after a secret and 
 ineffable manner, and not like in all things to any natural 
 conversion whatsoever." Now if he had left out " conversion," 
 and affirmed only Christ's real presence there after a myste- 
 rious and indeed an ineffable manner, no man could have 
 spoke better. And therefore, if you will force the argument 
 always to make that the safest way of salvation which differ- 
 ing parties agree on, why do you not yield to the force of 
 the same argument in the belief of the sacrament, one of the 
 most immediate means of salvation, where not only the most 
 but all agree, and your own greatest clerks cannot tell what 
 to say to the contrary ? 
 
 IV. — I speak here for the force of the argument, which 
 A. C. p. 64. certainly in itself is nothing, though by A. C. made of great 
 account ; for he says, "It is a confession of adversaries 
 extorted by truth ;" just as ^Petilian the Donatist bragged in 
 the case of baptism. But in truth it is nothing ; for the 
 syllogism which it frames is this : In point of faith and 
 salvation it is safest for a man to take that way which the 
 differing parties agree on. But papists and protostants (which 
 are the differing parties) agree in this, that there is salvation 
 possible to be found in the Roman church : therefore it is 
 safest for a man to be and continue in the Roman church. 
 To the minor proposition then, I observe this only, that 
 though many learned protestants grant this, all do not. And 
 then that proposition is not universally true, nor able to 
 sustain the conclusion : for they do not in this all agree ; 
 nay, I doubt not but there are some protestants which can 
 and do as stiffly and as churlishly deny them salvation as 
 they do us : and A. C. should do well to consider, whether 
 they do it not upon as good reason at least. But for the 
 major proposition, namely. That in point of faith and sal- 
 
 et vini in corpus et sanguinem Christi arbitramini, ut ad hoc tibi terminan- 
 
 esse substantialem, sed arcanam et in- dam putares epistolam quo quasi recen- 
 
 effabileni, et niiUis naturalibus couver- tius in animis legentium remaneret, bre- 
 
 sionibus per omnia similem, &c. Bellarm. viter respondeo, &c. S.August, cont. 
 
 in Recognit. hujus loci. Et vid. Sect. 38. Lit. Petil- lib. ii. c. loS. And here 
 
 num. III. A. C. ad hoc sibi putavit terminandam 
 
 ^ Sed quia ita magnum firmamentum collationem ; sed fnistra, ut apparebit, 
 
 vanitatis vestrae in hac sententia esse num. ^'I. 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 248 
 
 vation it is safest for a man to take that way which the Sect. 35. 
 adversary confesses, or the differing parties agree on, I say 
 that is no metaphysical principle, but a bare contingent pro- ' 
 position, and being indefinitely taken, may bo true or false, 
 as the matter is to which it is applied ; but being taken 
 universally is false, and not able to lead in the conclusion. 
 Now that this proposition — In point of faith and salvation 
 it is safest for a man to take that way which the differing 
 parties agi'ee on, or which the adversary confesses — hath no 
 strength in itself, but is sometimes true and sometimes false, 
 as the matter is about which it is conversant, is most evident. 
 First, by reason : because consent of disagreeing parties is 
 neither rule nor proof of truth ; for Herod and Pilate, dis- 
 agreeing parties enough, yet agreed against truth itself: but 
 truth rather is or should be the rule to frame, if not to force 
 agreement. And secondly, by the two instances ^ before given : 
 for in the instance between the orthodox church then and 
 the Donatists this proposition is most false ; for it was a 
 point of faith, and so of salvation, that they were upon, 
 namely, the right use and administration of the sacrament 
 of baptism. And yet, had it been safest to take up that 
 way which the differing parts agreed on, or which the 
 adverse part confessed, men nmst needs have gone with the 
 Donatists against the church. And this must fall out as 
 oft as any heretic will cunningly take that way against the 
 church which the Donatists did, if this principle shall go for 
 current. But in the second instance, concerning the eucha- 
 rist, a matter of faith, and so of salvation too, the same pro- 
 position is most true. And the reason is, because here the 
 matter is true ; namely, the true and real participation of 
 the body and blood of Christ in that blessed sacrament. But 
 in the former the matter was false ; namely, that rebaptiza- 
 tion was necessary for baptism formally given by the church. 
 So this proposition — In point of faith and salvation it is 
 safest for a man to take that way which the differing parties 
 agree in, or which the adversary confesses — is, you see, both 
 true and false, as men have cunning to apply it, and as 
 the matter is about which it is conversant : and is therefore 
 no proposition able or fit to settle a conclusion in any sober 
 
 e Sect. 35. iiiirn. III. 
 R 2 
 
244 Archhishop Laud against 
 
 Sect. 35. man''s mind, till the matter contained under it be well scanned 
 and examined ? And yet, as much use as you would make of 
 this proposition to amaze the weak, yourselves dare not stand 
 to it ; no, not where the matter is undeniably true, as shall 
 appear in divers particulars beside this of the eucharist. 
 
 A.C.p. 65. V. — But before I add any other particular instances, I 
 must tell you what A. C. says to the two former : for he tells 
 us, " These two are nothing like the present case.'' Nothing ! 
 that is strange indeed. Why, in the first of those cases con- 
 cerning the Donatists your proposition is false ; and so far 
 from being safest, that it was no way safe for a man to take 
 that way of belief, and so of salvation, which both parts 
 agreed on. And is this nothing? nay, is not this full and 
 home to the present case ? For the present case is this, and 
 no more. That it is safest taking that way of belief Avhich 
 the diflFering parties agree on, or which the adversary con- 
 fesses. And in the second of those cases concerning the 
 eucharist, your proposition indeed is true ; not by the truth 
 which it hath in itself metaphysically and in abstract, but 
 only in regard of the matter to which it is applied : yet 
 there you desert your own proposition where it is true. And 
 is this nothing I nay, is not this also full and home to the 
 present case, since it appears your proposition is such as your- 
 selves dare not bide by, either when it is true or when it is 
 false ? For in the case of baptism administered by the Donatist, 
 the proposition is false, and you dare not bide by it for truth's 
 sake. And in the case of the eucharist the proposition is 
 true, and yet you dare not bide by it for the church of Rome's 
 sake. So that church (with you) cannot err, and yet will not 
 suffer you to maintain truth ; which not to do is some degree 
 of error, and that no small one. 
 
 A. C p. 65. VI. — Well, A. 0. goes on, and gives his reasons why these 
 two instances are nothing like the present case. " For in 
 these cases," saith he, " there are annexed other reasons of cer- 
 tainly known peril of damnable schism and heresy, which we 
 should incur by consenting to the Donatists' denial of true 
 baptism among catholics, and to the protestants' denial or 
 doubting of the true substantial presence of Christ in the 
 eucharist ; but in this case of resolving to live and die in the 
 catholic Roman church, there is confessedly no such peril of 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 245 
 
 any damnable heresy or schism, or any other sin."" Here I Sect. 35. 
 have many particulars to observe upon A. C, and you shall 
 have them as briefly as I can set them down. 
 
 And first, I take A. 0. at his word, that in the case of the Punct. i. 
 Donatists, should it be followed, there would be known peril 
 of damnable schism and heresy by denying true baptism to be 
 in the orthodox church. For by this you may see what a sound 
 proposition this is, That where two parties are dissenting, it 
 is safest believing that in which both parties agree, or which 
 the adversary confesses ; for here you may see by the case 
 of the Donatist is confessed, it may lead a man that will 
 universally lean to it into known and damnable schism and 
 heresy. An excellent guide, I promise you, this ; is it not I 
 
 Nor, secondly, are these, though A. C. calls them so, an- Punct. 2. 
 nexed reasons ; for he calls them so but to blanch the mat- * '^' ^' 
 ter, as if they fell upon the proposition ah extra, accidentally, 
 and from without ; whereas they are not annexed or pinned 
 on, but flow naturally out of the proposition itself. For 
 the proposition would seem to be metaphysical, and is applia- 
 ble indifferently to any common belief of dissenting parties, 
 be the point in difference what it will. Therefore if there be 
 any thing heretical, schismatical, or any way evil in the point, 
 this proposition, being neither universally nor necessarily true, 
 must needs cast him that relies upon it upon all these rocks 
 of heresy, schism, or whatever else follows the matter of the 
 proposition. 
 
 Thirdly, A. 0. doth extremely ill to join these cases of the Punct. 3. 
 Donatists for baptism and the protestants for the eucharist " ' P' 
 together, as he doth. For this proposition in the first, con- 
 cerning the Donatists, leads a man (as is confessed by him- 
 self) into known and damnable schism and heresy ; but, by 
 A. O.'s good leave, the latter, concerning the protestants and 
 the eucharist, nothing so. For I hope A. C. dare not say, 
 that to believe the true, f substantial presence of Christ is 
 either known or damnable schism or heresy. Now as many 
 
 f Caeterum his absurditatilms subla- Inst. H!i. iv. c. 17. §. 19— In coenae 
 
 tis, quicquid ad exprimendam veram mysterio per synihola panis et vini 
 
 suUstautialeiiKiue corporis ac sanguinis Christus vere nobis exhil)etur, &c. _ Et 
 
 Domini comm'unicationem, qua- sub sa- nos participes substantia} ejtis facti su- 
 
 cris cteua; symbolis, fidelibus exhibetur, mus. Ibid. §. 11. 
 facere potest, lil)enter recipio. Calv. 
 
 « 3 
 
246 Archbishop Laud against 
 
 Sect. 35. and as learned Sprotestants believe and maintain this, as do 
 believe possibility of salvation (as before is limited) in the 
 Roman church : therefore they, in that, not guilty of either 
 known or danmable schism or heresy, though the Donatists 
 were of both. 
 Punct. 4. Fourthly, whereas he imposes upon the protestants " the 
 ■ " ^' ■ denial or doubting of the true and real presence of Christ in 
 the eucharist," he is a great deal more bold than true in 
 that also ; for understand them right, and they certainly nei- 
 ther deny nor doubt it. For as for the Lutherans, as they are 
 commonly called, their very opinion of consubstantiation 
 makes it known to the world, that they neither deny nor 
 doubt of his true and real presence there ; and they are pro- 
 testants. And for the Calvinists, if they might be rightly 
 understood, they also maintain a most true and real presence, 
 though they cannot permit their judgment to be transubstan- 
 tiated ; and they are protestants too. And this is so known 
 a truth that ^ Bellarmine confesses it ; for he saith, " Pro- 
 testants do often grant that the true and real body of Christ 
 is in the eucharist."'' But he adds, "• That they never say (so 
 far as he hath read) that it is there truly and really, unless 
 they speak of the supper which shall be in heaven.'' Well ; 
 first, if they grant that the true and real body of Christ is in 
 that blessed sacrament, (as Bellarmine confesses they do, and 
 A. C. p. 65. it is most true,) then A. C. is false, who charges all the pro- 
 testants with denial or doubtfulness in this point. And 
 secondly, Bellarmine himself also shews here his ignorance or 
 his malice ; ignorance, if he knew it not, malice, if he would 
 not know it. For the Calvinists, at least they which follow 
 Calvin himself, do not only believe that the true and real 
 body of Christ is received in the eucharist, but that it is 
 there, and that we partake of it vere et realiter^ which are 
 ' Calvin's own words ; and yet Bellarmine boldly affirms that 
 to his reading " no one protestant did ever affirm it." And 
 
 g Sect. .S5. num. III. ants under the name oi sacrameniarii 
 
 h L-ellarm. de Euchar. lib. i. c. 2. is plain. For he says the council of 
 
 §. Quinto dicit. Sacranientarii swjie Trent oi)posed tliis word rca/i/er, fig- 
 
 dicunt reale corjms Christi in ctiMia ad- mento Cahunhtico, to the Cavinistical 
 
 esse, sed realiter adesse numiuam di- figment. Ibid. 
 
 cunt, ([uod Icgerim, nisi forte loquun- » Calv. in i Cor. x. 3. vere, itc et iu 
 
 tur de co'na quw fit in ca^lo, &c. i Cor. xi. 24. realiter. Vide supra 
 
 And that he means to brand protest- num. III. 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 247 
 
 I for my part cannot believe but Bellarmine had read Cal- Sect. 35. 
 vin, and very carefully, he doth so frequently and so mainly 
 oppose him. Nor can that place by any art be shifted, or by 
 any violence wrested from Calvin s true meaning of the pre- 
 sence of Christ in and at the blessed sacrament of the eucha- 
 rist, to any supper in heaven whatsoever. But most manifest it 
 is, that quod legerim, " for aught I have read," will never serve 
 Bellarmine to excuse him: for he himself, but in the very 
 k chapter going before, quotes four places out of Calvin, in 
 which he says expressly, that we receive in the sacrament the 
 body and blood of Christ vere, truly. So Calvin says it four 
 times, and Bellarmine quotes the places ; and yet he says in 
 the very next chapter, that never any protestant said so, to 
 his reading. And for the church of England, nothing is more 
 plain than that it believes and teaches the true and real pre- 
 sence of Christ in the ' eucharist, unless A. C. can make a 
 body no body, and blood no blood, (as perhaps he can by 
 transubstantiation,) as well as bread no bread, and wine no 
 wine : and the church of England is protestant too. So pro- 
 testants of all sorts maintain a true and real presence of 
 Christ in the eucharist ; and then, where is any known or 
 damnable heresy here ? As for the learned of those zealous 
 men that died in this cause in queen Mary's days, they denied 
 not the real presence simply taken, but as their opposites 
 forced transubstantiation upon them, as if that and the real 
 presence had been all one. Whereas all the ancient Chris- 
 tians ever believed the one, and none but modern and super- 
 stitious Christians believe the other, if they do believe it ; for 
 I doubt, for my part, they do not. And as for the unlearned 
 in those times, and all times, their zeal (they holding the 
 foundation) may eat out their ignorances and leave them safe. 
 Now that the learned protestants in queen Mary's days did 
 
 •» Bellarm. de Eucharistia, lib. i. c. i. secration thus : " Grant us, gracious 
 
 §. iSecundo docet. Lord, so to eat the flesh of thy dear f^oii 
 
 1 " The body of Christ is given, taken, Jesus Christ, and to drink liis l)l()od," 
 
 and eaten in the supper (of the Lord) &c. And again, in the second prayer, 
 
 only after an heavenly and spiritual or thanksgiving after consecration, 
 
 manner. And the means whereby the thus : " We give thee thanks, for that 
 
 body of Christ is received and eaten is thou dost vouchsate to feed us, which 
 
 faith." Led. Angl. Art.XXVIIL So here have duly received these holy mysteries, 
 
 is the manner of transubstantiation de- with the spiritual I'ood of the most pre- 
 
 nied, l)ut the body of Christ twice af- cious body and blood of thy Son ouv 
 
 firmed. And in the prayer before con- Saviour, Jesus Christ," &c. 
 
 R 4 
 
248 Archbishop Laud against 
 
 Stct. 35. not deny, nay, did maintain the real presence, will manifestly 
 appear. For when the commissioners obtruded to Jo. Frith 
 the presence of Christ's natural body in the sacrament, and 
 that without all figure or similitude, Jo. Frith acknowledges, 
 " m That the inward man doth as verily receive Christ's body 
 as the outward man receives the sacrament with his mouth.'" 
 And he adds, " " That neither side ought to make it a neces- 
 sary article of faith, but leave it indiiferent." Nay, arch- 
 bishop Cranmer comes more plainly and more home to it 
 than Frith. " For if you understand," saith he^, " by this word 
 really, reipsa; that is, in very deed and effectually; so Christ, 
 by the grace and efficacy of his passion, is indeed and truly 
 present, &c. But if by this word really you understand 
 V corporaliter^ corporally in his natural and organical body, 
 under the forms of bread and wine, it is contrary to the holy 
 word of God." And so likewise bishop Ridley. Nay, bishop Rid- 
 ley adds yet further, and speaks so fully to this point, as I 
 think no man can add to his expression: and it is well if 
 some protestants except not against it. " Both you and I," 
 saith qhe, "agree in this; that in the sacrament is the very 
 true and natural body and blood of Christ, even that which 
 was born of the Virgin Mary, which ascended into heaven, 
 which sits on the right hand of God the Father, which shall 
 
 m Jo. Fox, Martyrolog. torn. ii. Lon- in a notorious contradiction : or else it 
 
 tlou, 1597. p. 943. ^''11 follow jiluinly ont of him, that 
 
 n Fox, il)id. Christ in the sacrament is existent one 
 
 o Cranmer apud Fox, ibid. p. J 301 . way and received another, which is a 
 
 1> I say corpontliter, corporally; for gross absurdity. And t\iat cor poraliter 
 
 so Bellarniine hath it expressly : Quod was the doctrine of the church of 
 
 autem corporahter et proprie sumatur Rome, and meant by transubstantia- 
 
 sjinguis et caro, etc. prol'ari potest om- tion, is further plain in the book called 
 
 nilms argnmeutis, &c. Bellarm. de En- The Institution of a Christian Man, set 
 
 charist. lib. i. c. 12. §. Se<l tota. And forth by the bishops in convocation in 
 
 I must be bold to tell you more than Henry the Eighth's time, anno 1534. 
 
 that this is the doctrine of the church chap. Of the Sacrament of the Altar: 
 
 of Rome ; for I must tell you too, tliat the words are, " Under the iorni and 
 
 Bellarmine here contradicts himself: figure of bread and wine, the very 
 
 for he that tells us here, that it can be body and blood of Chi-ist is corporally, 
 
 proved by many arguments that we re- really, &C. exhibited and received," &c. 
 
 ceive the" Hesli iind the blood of Christ And Aipiinas expresses it thus: Quia 
 
 in the cucharist corpora/tier, said as tamen substantia corporis Christi reali- 
 
 expressly before, (had be remembered ter non dividitur a sua quantitate di- 
 
 it,) that'though Christ be in this blessed mensiva, et ab ahis accidentibus, inde 
 
 sacrament vere et realiter, yet (saith he) est, quod ex vi realis concomitantiae est in 
 
 non dicemus corjjoraliter, i. e. eo modo hoc sacramento tota quantitas dimensiva 
 
 quo sua natura existunt cor])ora, &c. corporis Christi, et omnia accidentia 
 
 Bellarm. de Eucharist, lib. i. c. 2. §. ejus. Thom. p. .^ q. 76. Art. 4. C. 
 
 Tertia regula. So Bellarmine here is q Apud Fox, ibid. p. 159S. 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 249 
 
 come from thence to judge the quick and the dead : only we Sect. 35. 
 differ in modo, in the way and manner of being. We confess 
 all one thing to be in the sacrament, and dissent in the man- 
 ner of being there. I confess Ohrisfs natural body to be in 
 the sacrament by spirit and grace, &c. You make a grosser 
 kind of being, inclosing a natural body under the shape and 
 form of bread and wine." So far and more, bishop Ridley. 
 And ^archbishop Cranmer confesses that he was indeed of 
 another opinion, and inclining to that of Zuinglius, till bishop 
 Ridley convinced his judgment and settled him in this point. 
 And for ^ Calvin, he comes no whit short of these, against the 
 calunmy of the Romanists on that behalf. Now after all this, 
 with what face can A. C. say (as he doth), that protestants 
 deny or doubt of the true and real presence of Christ in the 
 sacrament \ I cannot well tell, or am unwilling to utter. 
 
 Fifthly, whereas it is added by A. C, " That in this present Punct. 5. 
 case there is no peril of any damnable heresy, schism, or any^- <^-P-66- 
 other sin, in resolving to Uve and die in the Roman church," 
 that is not so neither ; for he that lives in the Roman 
 church with such a resolution, is presumed to believe as that 
 church believes. And he that doth so, I will not say is as 
 guilty, but guilty he is more or less, of the schism which that 
 church first caused by her corruptions, and now continues by 
 them and her power together ; and of all her damnable 
 opinions too in point of misbelief; though perhaps A. C. will 
 not have them called heresies, unless they have been con- 
 demned in some general council, and of all other sins also, 
 which the doctrine and misbelief of that church leads him 
 into. And mark it I pray. For it is one thing to live in a 
 schismatical church, and not communicate with it in the 
 schism, or in any false worship that attends it. For so 'Elias 
 lived among the ten tribes and was not schismatical, and 
 after him " Elisaeus. But then neither of them either coun- 
 tenanced the schism, or worshipped the calves in Dan or in 
 
 r Apud Fox, ibifl. p. 1703. nem esse potum. Talibus alimentis 
 
 s Tantum de niodo qusestio est, &c. aniniam illi meain pascendain offero. 
 
 Et facessat calumnia auferri Christum In S. ctena juliet me sub symbolis pa- 
 
 a cd'ua sua, &f. Calv. Inst. lib. iv. c. nis et vini c()r])us et sanguiueni suum 
 
 17. §. 31. Veritatein Dei in qua ac- suinere, niauducare et bii)ere. Nihil 
 
 quiescere tuto licet, sine controversia duijito, quin et ipse vere porrigat : et 
 
 amplectar. Pronunciat ille camera eg(t recipiam. Calv. ibid. §. 32. 
 suam esse animaj meai cibum, sangui- t 3 Reg. xvii. u 4 Reg. iii. 
 
250 Archbishop Laud against 
 
 Sect. 35. Bethel. And so also, beside these prophets, did those thou- 
 sands live in a schismatical church, yet ^ never lowed tlieir hnee 
 to Baal. But it is quite another thing to live in a schismati- 
 cal church, and communicate with it in the schism and in all the 
 superstitions and corruptions which that church teaches, nay, 
 to live and die in them. For certainly here no man can so 
 live in a schismatical church, but, if he be of capacity enough 
 and understand it, he must needs be a formal schismatic, or 
 an involved one if he understand it not. And in this case the 
 church of Kome is either far worse or more cruel than the 
 church of Israel, even under Ahab and Jezebel, was. The 
 synagogue indeed was corrupted a long time and in a great 
 degree ; but I do not find that this doctrine, You must sacri- 
 fice in the high places, or this. You may not go and worship 
 at the one altar in Jerusalem, was either taught by the 
 priests or maintained by the prophets, or enjoined the people 
 by the sanhedrim : nay, can you shew me when any Jew, 
 living there devoutly according to the law, was ever punished 
 for omitting the one of these or doing the other I But the 
 church of Rome hath solemnly decreed her errors; and 
 erring, hath yet decreed withal that she cannot err ; and im- 
 posed upon learned men disputed and improbable opinions, 
 transubstantiation, purgatory, and forbearance of the cup in 
 the blessed eucharist, even against the express command of 
 our Saviour, and that for articles of faith. And to keep off 
 disobedience, whatever the corruption be, she hath bound up 
 her decrees upon pain of excommunication and all that fol- 
 lows upon it. Nay, this is not enough, unless the fagot be 
 kindled to light them the way. This then may be enough for 
 us to leave Rome, though the .void prophet forsook not Israel. 
 And therefore in this present case there is peril, great peril 
 of damnable both schism and heresy, and other sin, by living 
 and dying in the Roman faith, tainted with so many super- 
 stitions as at this day it is, and their tyranny to boot. So 
 that here I may answer A. C. just as ^ St. Augustine answered 
 Petilian the Donatist in the fore-named case of baptism. For 
 
 X 3 Reg. xix. 18. dem perire noii viiltis. Nam iit facile 
 
 y 3 Reg. xiii. 1 1 . cogiioscatis (jiiod ipsi sunt rei, de fide 
 
 z Petilianus dixit, Veuite ad ecdesiam nostra optime judieant. Ego illonim 
 
 popiili, et aiifugite traditores (ita or- infectos baptize. Illi meos (quod absit) 
 
 thodoxos turn appellavit) si cum iis- recipiunt baptizatos, qua? oninino non 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 251 
 
 when Petilian pleaded the concession of his adversaries, Sect. 35. 
 " That baptism, as the Donatists administered it, was good 
 and lawful," and thence inferred, (just as the Jesuit doth 
 against me,) " that it was better for men to join with his con- 
 gregation than with the church ;■" St. Augustine answers : 
 " We do indeed approve among heretics baptism, but so, not 
 as it is the baptism of heretics, but as it is the baptism of 
 Christ. Just as we approve the baptism of adulterers, idola- 
 ters, witches ; and yet not as it is theirs, but as it is Christ's 
 baptism. For none of these, for all their baptism, shall inherit 
 the hmcidoni of God : and the apostle reckons heretics among 
 them a." And again afterwards : " It is not therefore yours," 
 saith ^St. Augustine, " that we fear to destroy, but Chrisfs; 
 which, even among the sacrilegious, is of and in itself holy." 
 Now you shall see how full this comes home to our Petilianist, 
 A. C, (for he is one of the contractors of the church of Christ to 
 Rome, as the Donatists confined it to Afric ;) and he cries out, 
 " That a possibility of salvation is a free confession of the A. c. p. 64, 
 adversaries, and is of force against them, and to be thought ^^' 
 extorted from them by force of truth itself." I answer : I do 
 indeed, for my part, (leaving other men free to their own judo-- 
 ment,) acknowledge a possibility of salvation in the Roman 
 church ; but so, as that which I grant to Romanists, is not 
 as they are Romanists, but as they are Christians ; that is, 
 as they believe the Creed and hold the foundation, Christ 
 himself, not as they associate themselves wittingly and know- 
 ingly to the gross superstitions of the Romish church. Nor 
 do I fear to destroy quod ipsorum est, that which is theirs ; 
 but yet I dare not proceed so roughly as with theirs or for 
 theirs to deny or weaken the foundation, which is Chrisfs, 
 even among them, and which is and remains holy, even in 
 the midst of their superstitions : and I am willing to hope 
 there are many among them which keep within that church, 
 
 facereiit, si in baptismo nostro culpas nes enim isti, inter quos et hwretici sunt, 
 
 aliquas agnovissent. Videte ergo quod sicut dicit apostolus, regnnm Dei noii 
 
 damus, quam sanctum sit, quod de- pcssidebimt, &c. S. August, cont. lAt. 
 
 struere metuit sacrilegus ininiicus. S. Petiliani, lib. ii. c. io8. 
 
 August, respond et : Sic a])probaraus in a Gal. v. 19,20, 21. 
 
 haereticis bajytismuin, non hctreticoruni, b Js\i,i ergo vestrum est quod de- 
 
 sed Christi ; sicut in fornicatoribus, ido- struoie metuimus, sed Christi ; quod et 
 
 lolatris, veneficis, &c. approbamus tiap- in sacrilegis per se sanctum est. S. Au- 
 
 tismum non eorum, sed Christi. Om- gust. ibid. 
 
252 
 
 Archbishop Laud against 
 
 Sect. 35- and yet wish the superstitions abohshed which they know, 
 and which pray to God to forgive their errors in what they 
 know not ; and which hokl the foundation firm, and Hve ac- 
 cordingly; and which woukl have all things amended that 
 are amiss, were it in their power. And to such I dare not 
 deny a possibility of salvation, for that which is Christ's in 
 them ; though they hazard themselves extremely by keeping 
 so close to that which is superstition, and in the case of 
 images comes too near idolatry. Nor can A. 0. shift this off 
 A. C. p. 66. by adding, " living and dying in the Roman church." For 
 this " living and dying in the Roman church" (as is before 
 expressed) cannot take away the possibility of salvation from 
 them which believe and repent of whatsoever is error or sin 
 in them, be it sin known to them or be it not. But then 
 perhaps A. C. will reply, that if this be so, I must then main- 
 tain that a Donatist also, living and dying in schism, might 
 be saved. To which I answer two ways. First, that a plain 
 honest Donatist, having (as is confessed) true baptism, and 
 holding the foundation, (as for aught I know the ^ Donatists 
 
 c For though Prateohis will make 
 Donatus, and from him the Donatists, 
 to be guilty of an impious heresy (I 
 doubt he means Arianism, though he 
 name it not) in making tlie Son of God 
 less than the Father, and the Holy 
 Ghost less than the Son, De Hwres. 
 lib. iv. hffir. 14, yet these things are 
 most manifest out of St. Augustine con- 
 cerning them, who lived with them, 
 both in time and place, and understood 
 them and tlieir tenets far better than 
 Prateohis could. 
 
 And first, St. Augustine tells us con- 
 cerning them, Ariani Patris et Fi- 
 lii et Spiritus Sancti diversas sub- 
 stantias esse dicunt : Donatistse autem 
 imam Triuitads sulistantiam conftten- 
 tur. So they are no Arians. 
 
 Secondly, Si aliiiui eorum minorem 
 Filium esse dixeruut quam Pater est, 
 ejusdem tamen substantias non nega- 
 runt. But this is but si aliqui, if any. 
 So it was doubtful, this too, though 
 Prateohis delivers it positively. 
 
 Tliirdly, Pluriini vero in iis hoc se 
 dicunt, omnino credere de Patre et Fi- 
 lio et Spiritu Sancto, quod catliolica 
 credit ecclesia. Nee ipsa cum illis ver- 
 titur queestio, sed de sola communione 
 
 infoehciter litigant, &c. De sola, only 
 about the union with the churcli. There- 
 fore tliey erred not in fundamental 
 points of faith. And, 
 
 Lastly, all that can further be said 
 against tlieiii is, that some of them, to 
 win the Goths to them when they were 
 powerful, said, Hoc se credere quod et 
 illi credunt. Now the Goths (for the 
 most) were Arians : l)ut then, saith St. 
 Augustine, they were but nonnulU, 
 some of tliem. And of this some it 
 was no more certain than sicut uudivi- 
 mus, as we have heard ; St. Augustine 
 knew it not. And then if it were true 
 of some, yet majorum suorum authori- 
 tate convincuntur; quia nee Donatus 
 ipse sic credidisse asseritur, de cnjus 
 parte se esse gloriantur. S. August. 
 Epist. 50. Where Prateohis is again 
 deceived ; for he says exjjressly, that 
 Donatus afhrmed the Son to be less 
 than the Father : Impius ille asserebat, 
 &c. But then indeed, (and which pei-- 
 chance deceived Prateohis,) beside Do- 
 natus, the founder of this heresy, there 
 was another Donatus, who succeeded 
 Majorinus at Carthage, and he was 
 guilty of the heresy which Prateohis 
 mentions; Et extant scripta ejus ubi 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 253 
 
 did,) and repenting of whatever was sin in him, and would Sect. 35. 
 have repented of the schism, had it been known to him, might 
 be saved. Secondly, that in this particular, the Romanist 
 and the Donatist differ much ; and that therefore it is not of 
 necessary consequence, that if a Romanist now (upon the con- 
 ditions before expressed) may be saved, therefore a Donatist 
 heretofore might : for in regard of the schism, the Donatist 
 was in one respect worse and in greater danger of damnation 
 than the Romanist now is, and in another respect better and 
 in less danger. The Donatist was in greater danger of dam- 
 nation, if you consider the schism itself then ; for they brake 
 from the orthodox church without any cause given them. 
 And here it doth not follow, if the Romanist have a possibility of 
 salvation, therefore a Donatist hath. But if you consider the 
 cause of the schism now, then the Donatist was in less dangei 
 of damnation than the Romanist is ; because the church of 
 Rome gave the first and the greatest cause of the schism, (as 
 is proved ^ before.) And therefore here it doth not follow, 
 that if a Donatist have possibility of salvation, therefore a 
 Romanist hath ; for a lesser offender may have that possibi- 
 lity of safety which a greater hath not. 
 
 And last of all ; whereas A. C, adds, that " confessedly Punct. 6. 
 there is no such peril," that is a most loud untruth, and an ' '^' 
 ingenuous man would never have said it. For in the same 
 ^ place, where I grant a possibility of salvation in the Roman 
 church, I presently add, that it is no secure way in regard of 
 Roman corruptions. And A. 0. cannot plead for himself, 
 that he either knew not this, or that he overlooked it ; for 
 himself disputes against it as strongly as he can. What mo- 
 desty or truth call you this ? for he that confesses a possi- 
 bility of salvation, doth not thereby confess no peril of dam- 
 nation in the same way. Yea, but if some protestants should 
 say there is peril of damnation to live and die in the Roman 
 faith, their saying is nothing in comparison of the number 
 or worth of those that say there is none. So A. C. again: 
 " And beside, they which say it are contradicted by their own 
 
 ap])aret, as St. Anyiistine confesses, that this Donatiis held that opinion, 
 
 De Hseres. hb. i. haer. 69. But then miicli less did they believe it them- 
 
 St. Augustine adds there also, nee fa- selves. S. August, ibid, 
 cile in iis quisquam, that scarce any tl Sect. 2 i. num. I, &c. 
 of the Donatists did so much as know e Sect. 35. num. I, II. 
 
254 Archbishop Laud against 
 
 Sect. 35. more learned brethren." Here A. C. speaks very confusedly: but 
 A. C. p. 66. whether he speak of protestants or Romanists, or mixes them, 
 the matter is not great ; for as for the number and worth of 
 men, they are no necessary concluders of truth. Not num- 
 ber : for who would be judged by the many ? The time was 
 when the ^Arians were too many for the orthodox. Not 
 worth simply; for that once S misled, is of all other the greatest 
 misleader : and yet God forbid that to worth weaker men 
 should not yield in difficult and perplexed questions ; yet so 
 as that when matters fundamental in the faith come in ques- 
 tion, they finally rest upon a higher and clearer certainty 
 than can be found in either number or weight of men. 
 Besides, if you mean your own party, you have not yet proved 
 your party more worthy for life or learning than the protest- 
 ants. Prove that first, and then it will be time to tell you 
 how worthy many of your popes have been for either life or 
 learning. As for the rest, you may blush to say it : for all 
 protestants unanimously agree in this, " That there is great 
 peril of damnation for any man to live and die in the Roman 
 persuasion ;" and you are not able to produce any one pro- 
 testant that ever said the contrary. And therefore that is a 
 most notorious slander, where you say, that they which affirm 
 A. C. p. 66. this peril of damnation are contradicted by their own more 
 learned brethren. 
 
 VII. — And thus having cleared the way against the excep- 
 
 f Iiigcmiiit totiis orbis, et Ai-iamim propterea f;nisa lidei fit iiift'rior ; nam 
 se esse niiratus est. S. Hier. aflvers. olim tres solum erant reperti, qui regis 
 Ijucit'erian. post medium, torn. ii. — Aria- mandatoresisterent,&c. Tlieod. Hist. Ec- 
 norum veneuuiii non jam portiunculam rles. lil). ii. c. 16. dialogo inter Constant. 
 quandam, sed pene orbem totum con- imp. et Lil)enum papam. 80 tliat pope 
 taminaverat, adeo ut prope cunctis La- did not think multitude anv great note 
 tini sermonis episcopis, partim vi, partim of the tnie cluirch. Ubi sunt, &c. qui 
 fraude deceptis, caligo qiitedam menti- ecclesiam multitudine definiunt, et par- 
 bus offunderetur, &c. Vin. Lirin. cont. vum gregeui asj)ernantur, t'cc. Greg. 
 Haeres. c. 6. — Ecclesia non parietibus Naz. Orat. 2^. prin. Nay, the Arians 
 consistit, sed in dogmatum veritate. were grown to that boldness, that they 
 Ecclesia ibi est, ubi fides vera est. Cse- objected to the catholics of that time 
 terum ante annosquindecim, aut viginti, paucitatem, the thinness of their num- 
 parietes omnes hie ecclesiarum hieretici ber, Greg. Naz.Carm. tffcX'ita sua, p. 24. 
 (de Arianis et aliis ha^reticis loquitiu-) edit. Paris. 1611.— Quum ejecti tamen 
 possidebant, &c. Ecclesia antem illic essent de civitatibus, jactabant in de- 
 erat, ubi fides vera erat. S. Hier. in sertis suis synagogis illud, Mnlti vocati, 
 Psal. c.xsxiii. — Constantius : Tantane paiici elecH. Socrat. Hist. Ecdes. lib. i. 
 orl)is terra" pars, liberi, in te residet, c. 10. 
 
 ut tu solus homini impio (de Athanasio g Error Origeniset Tertulliani magna 
 
 loquitur) subsidio venire, et pacem orbis fuit in ecclesia Dei populi tentatio. Vin. 
 
 ac mundi totius dirimere audeas ? Libe- Lirin. cont. Hfer. c. 23 et 24. 
 rius: Estoquod ego solus sim, non tamen 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. ^55 
 
 tions of A. C. to the two former instances, I will now pro- Sect. 35. 
 ceed (as I h promised) to make this fm-ther appear, that A.C. 
 and his fellows dare not stand to that ground which is here 
 laid down, namely, " That in point of faith and salvation, 
 it is safest for a man to take that way which the adversary 
 confesses to be true, or whereon the differing parties agree ;" 
 and that if they do stand to it, they must be forced to main- 
 tain the church of England in many things against the 
 church of Rome. 
 
 And first, I instance in the Article of our Saviour Christ's Punct. i. 
 descent into hell. I hope the church of Rome believes this 
 article ; and withal, that hell is the place of the damned : so 
 doth the church of England. In this then these dissenting 
 churches agree ; therefore, according to the former rule, (yea, 
 and here in truth too,) it is safest for a man to beUeve this 
 article of the Creed, as both agree ; that is, that Christ 
 descended in soul into the place of the damned. But this 
 the Romanists will not endure at any hand ; " for the 
 school' ag-ree in it, that the soul of Christ in the time of his 
 death went really no further than in Umhum patrimi ,•" which 
 is not the place of the damned, but a region or quarter in 
 the upper part of hell (as they call it), built up there by the 
 Romanist, without license of either scripture or the primitive 
 church. And a man would wonder how those builders J vyith 
 untempered mortar found light enough in that dark place to 
 build as they have done. 
 
 Secondly, I will instance in the institution of the sacrament Punct. 2. 
 in both kinds. That Christ instituted it so, is confessed by 
 both churches ; that the ancient churches received it so, is 
 agreed by both churches : therefore, according to the former 
 rule, (and here in truth too,) it is safest for a man to receive 
 this sacrament in both kinds. And yet here this ground of 
 A. C. must not stand for good ; no, not at Rome ; but to 
 receive in one kind is enough for the laity. And the poor 
 Bohemians'^ must have a dispensation, that it may be lawful 
 
 b Sect. 35. num. IV. 1< Basiliense concilium concessit Bohe- 
 i Sequuntur enim Thorn, p. 3. q. 52. mis uti-iusque speciei usuni : modo fate- 
 Art. 2. c. Verba ejus sunt. Anima rentur id sibi concedi ab ecclesia, non 
 Christi per suam essentiam descendit autera ad hoc teneri divino jure. Bel- 
 sohmi ad locum inferni, iu quo justi larm. de Sacrament, iu geuere, lib. i. 
 detinebantur, &c. c. 2. §. 2. 
 j Ezech. xiii. 10. 
 
256 Archbishop Laud against 
 
 Sect. 35. for them to receive the sacrament as Christ commanded 
 them. And this must not be granted to them neither, unless 
 they will acknowledge (most opposite to truth) that they are 
 not bound by divine law to receive it in both kinds. And 
 here their building with unteaipered mortar appears most 
 manifestly : for they have no show to maintain this but the 
 fiction of Thomas of Aquin, " That he which receives the 
 body of Christ receives also his blood per concomitantiam, by 
 concomitancy ; because the blood goes always with the body C 
 of which term 1 Thomas was the first author I can yet find. 
 First then, if this be true, I hope Christ knew it ; and then, 
 why did he so unusefully institute it in both kinds I Next, 
 if this be true, concomitancy accompanies the priest as well 
 as the people ; and then, why may not he receive it in one 
 kind also 'I Thirdly, this is apparently not true : for the 
 eucharist is a sacrament sanffuiiiis effasl, of blood shed and 
 poured out ; and blood poured out, and so severed from the 
 body, goes not along with the body per concoinitantiam. And 
 yet Christ must rather err, or proceed I know not how in the 
 institution of the sacrament in both kinds, rather than the 
 holy, unerring church of Rome may do amiss in the deter- 
 mination for it and the administration of it in one kind. Nor 
 will the distinction, " That Christ instituted this as a sacri- 
 fice, to which both kinds were necessary," serve the turn : for 
 suppose that true, yet ho instituted it as a sacrament also, 
 or else that sacrament had no institution from Christ ; which 
 I suppose A. C. dares not affirm. And that institution which 
 the sacrament had from Christ was in both kinds. 
 
 Punrt. 3. And since here is mention happened of sacrifice, my third 
 instance shall be in the sacrifice which is offered up to God 
 in that great and high mystery of our redemption by the 
 death of Christ. For as Christ offered up mhimself once for 
 
 1 Thorn, p. 3. tj. ;6. Art. 2. C. et alibi which place the school infers, Passionem 
 
 passim. Christi v eriim sacrificiuin t'liisse. Thorn. 
 
 ■" Christ, by his own blood, entered p. 3. q. 48. Art. 3. C.—" Christ did suffer 
 
 once into the holy place, and obtained death upon the cross for our redeiup- 
 
 eternal redemption for us, Heh. ix. 1 2. tion ; and made there, by his one ohla- 
 
 Aud this was done by way of sacrifice, tion of himself once offered, a full, per- 
 
 by the offering of the body of Jesus feet, and sufficient sacrifice, oblation, 
 
 Christ once made, Heb. x. 10. Christ and satisfaction for the sins of the 
 
 yave himself for us, to be an offering whole world." Eccles. Angl in Canone 
 
 and a sacrifice of a sivcetsmelling sa- Consecratiouis Eucharist. 
 vour unto God, Eplies. v. 2. Out of 
 
Fisher tJte Jesmf. 
 
 
 all, a full and all-sufficient sacrifice for the sins of the whole Sect. 35. 
 world, so did he institute and command a "memory of this 
 sacrifice in a sacrament, even till his coming again. For at 
 and in the eucharist we ofl^er up to God three sacrifices : 
 one by the priest only ; that is the « commemorative sacrifice 
 of Christ's death, represented in bread broken and wine poured 
 out ; another by the P priest and the people jointly, and that 
 is the sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving for all the benefits 
 and graces we receive by the precious death of Christ ; the 
 third, '•by every particular man for himself only ; and that is 
 
 n " Ami Christ did institute, and in 
 his holy gospel command us to oontiuue, 
 a perpetual memory of that his precious 
 death until his coming again." Eccles. 
 Angl. Ibid. 
 
 o Sacramentum hoc est commemora- 
 tivum Dominica? passionis, qure fuit 
 verum sacrificium ; et sic nominatur 
 sacriiicium. Tliom. p. 3. q. 73. Art. 4. C. 
 — " Christ being offered up once for all in 
 his own proper person, is yet said to be 
 offered up, &c. in the celel)ration of the 
 sacrament ; because his oblation once 
 for ever made is thereby represented." 
 Landiert in Fox his IMartyrolog}', vol. 
 ii. edit. Loud. 1579. p. 1033. — Et postea. 
 " It is a memorial or representation there- 
 of." Ibid. The master of the sentences 
 judged truly in this point, saying, " That 
 which is oftered and consecrated of the 
 priest is called a sacrifice and oblation, 
 because it is a memory and represent- 
 ation of the true sacrifice and holy obla- 
 tion made on the altar of the cross." 
 Archbishop Cranmer, in his Answer to 
 Bishop Gardiner, concei'uing the most 
 holy Sacrament, hb. v. p. 377. And 
 again, this shortly is tlie mind of Lom- 
 liardus, " That the tiling which is done 
 at God's board is a sacrifice, and so is 
 that also which was made upon the 
 cross, but not after one maimer of un- 
 derstanding: for this was tlie thing 
 indeed, and that is the commemoration 
 of the thing." Ibid. So likewise bishop 
 Jewel acknowledgeth iacntcntum et ra- 
 lionab'ile sacrijicium, spoken of by Euse- 
 bius de Demonstrat. Evang. lib. i. 
 Jewel's Reply against Harding, Art. 7. 
 Divis. 9. Again, the ministration of 
 the holy communion is sometimes of 
 the ancient Fathers called an unbloody 
 sacrifice ; not in respect of any cor])oral 
 or fleshly presence that is imagined to 
 be there without lilood shedding, but 
 for that it representeth and reporteth 
 
 to our minds that one and everlasting 
 sacrifice that Christ made in his body 
 upon the cross. This bishop Jewel 
 disliketh not in his Answer to Harding, 
 Art. 17. Divis. 14. Patrcs ccenam Do- 
 minicam duphci de causa vocanmt sa- 
 crificium incruentum. Tum quod sit 
 imago et solennis reprsesentatio illiiis 
 sacrificii IXaaruiov cjuod Christus cum 
 sanguinis efFusione obtulit in cruce : 
 tum quod sit etiam eucharisticum sacri- 
 ficium, id est, sacrificium laudis et gra- 
 tiarum actionis, cum pro benefices om- 
 nibus, tum pro redemptiono imprimis 
 per Christi mortem peracta. Zanch. in 
 2. Prjpcept. Decal. torn. iv. pag. 459. 
 And Dr. Fulk also acknowledges a sa- 
 crifice in the eucharist, in St. i^Iatth. 
 xxvi. 26. Non dissinnilaverint Chris- 
 tiani in crena Domini, sive ut ipsi loque- 
 bantur, in sacrificio altaris peculiari 
 quodam modo praesentem se venerari 
 Denm Christianonmi, sed qua? esset 
 forma ejus sacrificii quod per spnbola 
 panis et vini peragitur, hoc veteres prae 
 se non ferebant. Isa. Casaiib. Exercit. 
 16. ad Annul. Baron. 5. 43. p. 560. 
 
 P In the Liturgy of the church of 
 England, we pray to God, immediately 
 after the reception of the sacrament, that 
 he would be pleased to accept this our 
 " sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving," 
 &c. And lleb. xiii. 15. " The sacrifice 
 pro])itiatorv was made by Christ him- 
 self only, but the sacrifice commemora- 
 tive and gratulatory is made by the 
 priest and the people." Archbishop 
 Cranmer in his Answer to Bishop Gardi- 
 ner, lib. V. p. 377. 
 
 q / beseech yo7i, brethren, by the 
 inrrries of God, that you (/ire up your 
 bodies n tiring sacrifice, holy, and ac- 
 ceptalj/c unto God. Rom. xii. i. — " We 
 otier, and present unto thee, O Lord, 
 ourselves, our souls and Ixidies, to be a 
 reasonable, holy, and living sacrifice 
 
 S 
 
258 ArchbisJiop Laud against 
 
 Sect. 35. the sacrifice of every man's body and soul, to serve him in 
 both all the rest of his life for this blessing thus bestowed on 
 him. Now thus far these dissenting churches agree, that 
 in the eucharist there is a sacrifice of duty, and a sacrifice 
 of praise, and a sacrifice of commemoration of Christ. There- 
 fore, according to the former rule, (and here in truth too,) 
 it is safest for a man to believe the commemorative, the 
 praising, and the performing sacrifice ; and to offer them 
 duly to God, and leave the church of Rome in this particular 
 to her superstitions, that I may say no more. And would 
 the church of Rome stand to A. O.'s rule, and believe dissent- 
 ing parties where they agree, were it but in this and that 
 before of the real presence, it would work far toward the 
 peace of Christendom. But the truth is, they pretend the 
 peace of Christendom, but care no more for it, than as it may 
 uphold at least, if not increase their own greatness. 
 
 Punct. 4. My fourth instance shall be in the sacrament of baptism, 
 and the things required as necessary to make it effectual to 
 the receiver. They, in the common received doctrine of the 
 church of Rome, are three ; the matter, the form, and the 
 intention of the priest to do that which the church doth and 
 intends he should do. Now all other divines, as well ancient 
 as modern, and both the dissenting churches also, agree in 
 the two former ; but many deny that the intention of the 
 priest is necessary. Will A. C. hold his rule, '" That it is 
 safest to believe, in a controverted point of faith, that which 
 the dissenting parties agree on, or which the adverse part 
 confesses f If he will not, then why should he press that 
 as a rule to direct others, which he will not be guided by 
 himself? And if he will, then he must go professedly against 
 the ^council of Trent, which hath determined it as de fide^ 
 as a point of faith, that the intention of the priest is neces- 
 sary to make the baptism true and valid. Though in the 
 history s of that council, it is most apparent the bishops and 
 other divines there could not tell what to answer to the 
 bishop of Minors, a Neapolitan, who declared his judgment 
 openly against it in the face of that council. 
 
 unto thee." So the Church of England, r Concil. Trid. Sess. 7. Can. 11. 
 
 in the prayer after the receiving of the s Hist. Concil. Trid. lib. ii. p. 277. 
 
 blessed sacrament. edit. Lat. Leyda?, 1622. 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 259 
 
 My fifth instance is, We say, and can easily prove, there Sect. 35. 
 are divers errors, and some gross ones, in the Roman Missal, punct. 5. 
 But I myself have heard some Jesuits confess, that in the 
 Liturgy of the church of England there is no positive error ; 
 and being pressed why then they refused to come to our 
 churches, and serve God with us, they answered, they could 
 not do it, because, though our Liturgy had in it nothing ill, 
 yet it wanted a gi*eat deal of that which was good and was 
 in their service. Now here let A. C. consider again, here 
 is a plain concession of the adverse part ; and both agree 
 there is nothinof in our service but that which is holv and 
 good. What will the Jesuit or A. C. say to this ? If he 
 forsake his ground, then it is not safest in point of divine 
 worship to join faith, as the dissenting parties agree, or to 
 stand to the adversaries*' own confession : if he be so hardy as 
 to maintain it, then the English Liturgy is better and safer to 
 worship God by than the Roman mass ; which yet, I pre- 
 sume, A. C. will not confess. 
 
 VIIL — In all these instances (the matter so falling out of 
 itself, for the argument enforces it not) the thing is true ; 
 but not therefore true, because the dissenting parties agree 
 in it, or because the adverse part confesses it : yet lest the 
 Jesuit, or A. 0. for him, further to deceive the weak, should 
 infer that this rule in so many instances is true, and false in 
 none, but that one concerning baptism among the Donatists, 
 and therefore the argument is true ut plerumque, as for the 
 most, and that therefore it is the safest way to believe that 
 which dissenting parties agree on ; I will lay down some 
 other particulars of as great consequence as any can be in 
 or about Christian religion. And if in them A. C. or any 
 Jesuit dare say, that it is safest to believe as the dissenting 
 parties agi'ee, or as the adverse party confesses, I dare say 
 he shall be an heretic in the highest degree, if not an infidel. 
 
 And first, where the question was betwixt the orthodox Punct. i. 
 and the Arian, whether the Son of God were consubstantiated 
 with the Father : the orthodox said he was ofxoovaLos, of 
 the same substance ; the Arian came within a letter of the 
 truth, and said he was ojuotowto?, of like substance : now he 
 that says he ia of the same substance, confesses he is of like 
 substance and more, that is, identity of substance ; for iden- 
 
65- 
 
 260 ArcMhhop Laud against 
 
 Sert. 35. tity contains in it all degrees of likeness, and more : but he 
 that acknowledges and believes that he is of like nature and 
 no more, denies the identity. Therefore if this rule be true, 
 " That it is safest to believe that in which tlic dissenting 
 parties agree, or which the adverse part confesses,"" (which 
 ^^•C- p-f'4, A. C. makes such great vaunt of,) then it is safest for a 
 Christian to believe that Christ is of like nature with God 
 the Father, and be free from belief that he is consubstantial 
 with him; which yet is concluded by the * council of Nice 
 as necessary to salvation, and the contrary condemned for 
 damnable heresy. 
 
 Piimt. 2. Secondly, in the question about the resurrection, between 
 the orthodox and divers gross "heretics of old, and the 
 anabaptists and libertines of late. For all or most of those 
 dissenting parties agree, that there ought to be a i^esurrec- 
 tion from sin to a state of grace ; and that this resurrection 
 oidy is meant in divers passages of holy scripture, together 
 with the life of the soul, which they are content to say is 
 innnortal ; but ^thcy utterly deny any resurrection of the 
 body after death : so with them that article of the Creed is 
 gone. Now then, if any man will guide his faith by this rule 
 of A. C, the consent of dissenting parties, or the confession 
 of the adverse part, he must deny the resurrection of the 
 body from the grave to glory, and believe none but that of 
 the soul from sin to grace, which the adversaries confess, and 
 in which the dissenting parties agree. 
 
 Pmirt. 3. Thirdly, in the great dispute of all others about the unity 
 of the Godhead : all dissenting parties, Jew, Turk, and Chris- 
 tian ; amoniT Christians orthodox and antitrinitarian of old ; 
 and in these latter times, orthodox and Socinian, (that horrid 
 and mighty monster of all heresies ;) agree in this, that there 
 is but one God. And I hope it is as necessary to believe 
 one God our Father, as one church our mother. Now will 
 
 t Coiifil. Nicaen Fides vel Symboluin pectannis, &c. ut homo sciat animam 
 
 in iine Concil. suam spiritnni iiiimortalem esse perpe- 
 
 u Saturninus, Basilides, Carpocratcs, tuo viventem in cielis, &c. Calv. In- 
 
 Cerinthus, Valentinns, Cerdon, Apelles, structione advers. Libertinos, c. 22. 
 
 &c. Tertiill. de Prtpscript. advers. Hw- princ. — Sunt etiam hodie iibertini qui 
 
 ret. c. 46, 48, 49, 51, &c. earn irrident, et resurrectionem quae 
 
 X Libertini rident spem omnem qiiam tractatur in scripturis, tantum ad ani- 
 
 de resnrrectione habenius, idque jam mas referunt. Pet. IMart. Loc. Com. 
 
 nobis evenisse dicnnt, quod a<lhuc ex- Class. 3. cap. 15. num. 4. 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 261 
 
 A. C say here it is safest believing as the dissenting parties Sect. 35. 
 agree, or as the adverse parties confess, namely, that there is 
 but one God, and so deny the Trinity, and therewith the Son 
 of God the Saviour of the world ? 
 
 Fourthly, in a point as fundamental in the faith as this ; P'"iLt. 4. 
 namely, whether Christ be true and very God. For which 
 very point most of the y martyrs in the primitive church laid 
 down their lives. The dissenting parties here were the ortho- 
 dox believers, who affirm he is both God and man ; for so our 
 Creed teaches us : and all those heretics, which affirm Christ 
 to be man, but deny him to be God; as the ^Arians, and 
 aCarpocratians, and ^Cerinthus, and cHebion, with others; 
 and at this day the f^Socinians. These dissenting parties 
 agree fully and clearly that Christ is man. Well then, dare 
 A. C. stick to his rule here, and say, it is safest for a Chris- 
 tian, in this great point of faith, to govern his belief by " the 
 consent of these dissenting parties,'" or " the confession and 
 acknowledgment of the adverse party;" and so settle his 
 belief that Christ is a mere man, and not God? I hope he 
 dares not. So then this rule, '^ To resolve a man's faith into 
 that in which the dissenting parties agree, or which the ad- 
 verse part confesses," is as often false as true ; and false in as 
 great, if not greater matters, than those in which it is true. 
 And where it is true, A. C. and his fellows dare not govern 
 themselves by it, the church of Rome condemning those 
 things which that rule proves. And yet while they talk of 
 certainty, nay, of infallibility, (less will not serve their turns,) 
 they are driven to make use of such poor shifts as these, 
 which have no certainty at all of truth in them, but infer 
 falsehood and truth alike. And yet for this also men will be 
 so weak or so wilful as to be seduced by them. 
 
 IX. — I told you e before, that the force of the preceding 
 argument hes upon two things : the one expressed, and that 
 
 y Heb. xi. 37. Cyrillus Alexandrimis '■ Tertul. ibid, 
 male aiulivit, quod Ammonium mar- c Tertul. lib. de Carue Chi-isti, c. 1 4. 
 
 tyrem ajtjiellavit, quern constitit teme- d Si ad Jesu Christi respicias esseu- 
 
 ritatis pcunas dedisse, et noii necessitate tiam atque naturam, non nisi homi- 
 
 nef^andi Christi in torraentis esse mor- nem eum fuisse coustauter affirmamus. 
 
 tiuim. Socr. Hist. Eccl. lib. vii. c. 14. Volkelius, lib. iii. de Religione Christia- 
 
 z Oi)tatus, lib. iv. cont. Parnien. ua, c. I. 
 
 a Tertul. lib. de Praescript. c. 48, e Sect. 35. num. 11. line. 
 
 ^3 
 
262 
 
 Archbishop Laud against 
 
 Sect. 35. is past ; the other upon the by, which comes now to be 
 handled. And that is your continual poor outcry against 
 us, " That we cannot be saved, because we are out of the 
 church." Sure, if I thought I were out, I would get in as 
 fast as I could. For we confess, as well as you, that " ^out 
 of the catholic church of Christ there is no salvation." But 
 what do you mean by " out of the church V Sure out of the 
 s Roman church. Why, but the Roman church and the 
 church of England are but two distinct members of that 
 catholic church which is spread over the face of the earth. 
 Therefore Rome is not the house where the church dwells, 
 but Rome itself, as well as other particular churches, dwells 
 in this great universal house; unless you will shut up the 
 church in Rome, as the Donatist did in Afric. I come a 
 little lower : Rome and other national churches are in this 
 universal catholic house as so many h daughters, to whom 
 (under Christ) the care of the household is committed by God 
 the Father, and the catholic church the mother of all Chris- 
 tians. Rome, as an elder sister, 'but not the eldest neither, 
 
 f Extra ecdesiam neminem vivificat 
 Spiritus Sanctus. S. August. Epist. 50. 
 ad finem. Field, de Eccles. lib. i. c. 13. — 
 Una est fidelium universalis ecclesia 
 extra »juam nullus salvatur. Coiic. La- 
 teran. Can. i. And yet even there, 
 there is no mention of the Roman 
 church. 
 
 S And so doth A. C. too, " Out of 
 the catholic Roman church there is no 
 possihility of salvation." A. C. p. 65. 
 
 h And dmt[ihler Sion was Gotl's own 
 phrase of old of the church, Isa. i. 8. oh 
 yap Trepl raiv ''lovSaiicv tovtov rhu K6yov 
 TrpovK€(piiuev ovSh irepl rrfs ^iwv ttjs 
 iroAews, aWa vepl ttjs iKKA-Offlas. Hyp- 
 j)()l. Orat. de Consum. JMundi — Et 
 omnis ecclesia virgo appellata est. S. 
 August. Tract. 13 in S. Joh. 
 
 i For Christ was to he preached to 
 all nations, but that preaching was to 
 begin at Jerusalem, Luke xxiv. 47, 
 according to the prophecy, JMic. iv. 2. 
 And the disciples were first called 
 Christians at Antioch, Acts xi. 26. 
 And therefore there was a church there 
 before ever St. Peter came thence to 
 settle one at Rome. Nor is it an 
 opinion destitute either of authority or 
 prol)ability, that the faith of Christ was 
 jireached and the sacraments adminis- 
 
 tered here in England, before any set- 
 tlement of a church in Rome. For St. 
 Gildas, the ancientest monument we 
 have, and whom the Romanists them- 
 selves reverence, says exjiressly, that the 
 religion of Christ was received inBri ttany, 
 tempore (ut scimus) summo Tiberii Cse- 
 saris, &c. in the latter time of Tibe- 
 rius Cfesar, Gildas de Excid. Brit. ; 
 whereas St. Peter kept in Jewry long 
 after Tiberius his death. Therefore 
 the first conversion of this island to the 
 faith was not by St. Peter ; nor from 
 Rome, which was not then a church. 
 Against this Rich. Broughton, in his 
 Ecclesiastical History of Great Britain, 
 centur. i. c. 8. §. 4, says expressly, 
 " That the protestants do freely ac- 
 knowledge, that this clause of the time 
 of Tiberius {tempore summo Tiberii 
 CcBsuris) is wanting in other copies of 
 that holy writer, and namely, in that 
 which was set forth by Pol. Virgil and 
 others." M^hereas first these words are 
 express in a most fair and ancient ma- 
 nuscrii)t of Gildas, to be seen in sir 
 Rob. Cotton's study, if any doubt it. 
 Secondly, these words are as express in 
 the printed edition of Gildas by Polyd. 
 Virg., which edition was printed at 
 London, anno 1525, and was never re- 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 263 
 
 had a great care committed unto her, in and from the prime Sect. 35. 
 times of the church, and to her bishop in her : but at this 
 time (to let pass many brawls that have formerly been in the 
 house) England, and some other sisters of hers, are fallen out 
 in the family. What then ? Will the Father and the mother, 
 God and the church, cast one child out because another is 
 angry with it ? Or when did Christ give that power to an 
 elder sister, that she and her steward, the bishop there, 
 should thrust out Avhat child she pleased I especially when 
 she hei'self is justly accused to have given the offence that is 
 taken in the house. Or will not both Father and mother be 
 sharper to her, for this unjust and unnatural usage of her 
 younger sisters, but their dear children l Nay, is it not the 
 next way to make them turn her out of doors, that is so 
 unnatural to the rest I It is well for all Christian men and 
 churches, that the Father and mother of them are not so 
 cursed as some would have them. And salvation need not be 
 feared of any dutiful child, nor outing from the churcli, be- 
 cause this elder sister's faults are discovered in the house, 
 and she grown froward for it against them that complained. 
 But as children cry when they are waked out of sleep, so do 
 you, and wrangle with all that come near you. And i^ Staple- 
 ton confesses, " That ye were in a dead sleej) and overnmch 
 rest, when the protestants stole upon you." Now if you can 
 prove that Rome is properly the 'catholic church itself, (as 
 
 printed since. Thirdly, these words are Jewel, Art. ^. Untruth T05. 
 as express in the edition of Gildas by 1 F(jr 1 am sure there is a Roman 
 
 Joh. Joseline, printed at London also, church that is l>iit a particular. Bel- 
 
 anno 1568. And this falsehood of larm. de Rom. Pont. lib. iv. c. 4. And 
 
 Broughton is so much the more foul, then you must either shew me another 
 
 because he boasts ( Prefat. to his Reader, Roman church which is the catholic, 
 
 fine), "That he hath seen and dili- or you must shew how one and the 
 
 gently perused the most and best momi- same Roman church is in different re- 
 
 ments and antiquities extant," &c. For spects or relations a particular, and yet 
 
 if he did not see and peruse these, he is the catholic. Which is not yet done, 
 
 vaiidy false to say it : if he did see And I do not say, a particular, and yet 
 
 them, he is most maliciously false to a catholic; but a particular, and yet 
 
 belie them. And lastly, whereas be the catholic church. For so you speak, 
 
 says the protestants themselves con- For that which card. Peron hath, that 
 
 fess so much, I must lielieve he 'is as the Roman church is the catholic caus- 
 
 false in this as in the former, till he ally, !)ecause it infuses universality 
 
 name the protestants to me which do into all the whole body of the catholic 
 
 confess it. And when he doth, he shall church, can, I think, satisfy no man 
 
 gain but tliis from me, that those pro- that reads it ; that a particular should 
 
 tpstants whicli confessed it were mis- infuse universality into an universal, 
 
 taken. For the thing is mistaken. Peron's Reply, lib. iv. c. 9. 
 k Return of Untruths upon Mr. 
 
 s4 
 
264 Archbishop Laud against 
 
 Sect. 35,36. you commonly call it,) sjieak out and prove it. In the mean 
 time you may mark this too, if you will, and it seems you do ; 
 for here you forget not what the bishop said to you. 
 
 J-. The lady which doubted (said the bishop to me) may 
 be better saved in it than you. 
 Sect. 36. 23. 1 said so indeed. Mark that too. Whore yet by the 
 way these words, " than you," do not suppose person only. 
 For I will judge ™no man that hath another master to stand 
 or fall to. Jiut they suppose calling and sufficiency in the 
 person. '■ Than you," that is, " than any man of your call- 
 ing and knowledge," of whom more is required. And then 
 no question of the truth of this speech, " that that person 
 may better be saved," that is, easier, " than you," than any 
 man that knows so much of truth, and opposes against it, as 
 you, and others of your calling do. How far you know truth, 
 other men may judge by your proofs, and causes of know- 
 ledge ; but how far you oppose truth known to you, that is 
 within, and no man can know but God and yourselves. 
 Howsoever, whore the foundation is but held, " there for 
 "ordintu-y men. it is not the vivacity of understanding, but 
 the simplicity of believing, that makes them safe." For St. 
 Augustine speaks there of men in the church; and no ^man 
 can be said simj)ly to be out of the visible church, that is 
 baptized, and holds the foundation. And as it is the sim- 
 plicity of believing that makes them safe, yea, safest, so is it 
 sometimes a quickness of imderstanding, that, loving itself 
 and some by-respects too well, makes men take up an unsafe 
 
 in Rom. xiv. 4. et excommunicatioiiis gladio spirituali- 
 
 " Caeterani tuibam iion iiitelligendi ter occiditur. Stapl. Controv. r. q. 2. 
 
 vi\ acitas, sed credendi simplicitas tutis- Art. 3. Notabil. 3. 
 
 simam facit. J^. ^Vugust. coiit. Fuiid. " The apostle pronounces some gone 
 
 c. 4. — 2cu(ei iroAActKis rhv Kahv ru a/Sa- out, St. John ii. 19, from the fellonshij» 
 
 ndviaToy, Naz. Orat. 3i.; oniissiou of of sound lielievers, when as vet the 
 
 in(iuiry many times saves the people. Christian religion they had not utterly 
 
 o " Heretics in respect of the profes- cast off. In like sense and meaning, 
 
 sion of sundry divine verities, which throughout all ages, heretics have justly 
 
 they still retain in common with right been hated, as branches cut off from 
 
 believers, &c. do still pertain to t!ie the true vine ; yet only so far forth cut 
 
 cluu-ch." Field, de Eccles. lib. i. c. 14 — oif as the heresies have extended. For 
 
 I'otest aliquis ecclesia; menibi-um esse both heresy, and many other crimes 
 
 secundum ipiid, (pii tamcn siMi])liciter which wholly sever from God do sever 
 
 noil est. Hitreticus reccdens a fide non from the church of God lint in ])art 
 
 diniittitur ut pagaiius, sed propter liap- only." Hooker's Eccles. Pol. b. v. ■§. 68. 
 tismi characterem punitnr ut transfiiga, 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. "^QB 
 
 way about the faith. So that there is no question but many Sect. 36. 
 were saved in corrupted times of the church, when their 
 " P leaders, unless they i-epented before death, were lost." 
 And q St. Augustine's rule will be true, that in all corruptions 
 of the church, " there will ever be a difference between an 
 heretic, and a plain well-meaning man that is misled and 
 believes an heretic."" Yet here let me add this for fuller 
 expression : this nuist be understood of such leaders and 
 heretics as i" refuse to hear the church's instruction, or to use 
 all the means they can to come to the knowledge of the 
 truth. For else, if they do this, err they may, but heretics 
 they are not, as is most manifest in ^St. Cyprian's case of re- 
 baptization. For here, though he were a main leader in that 
 error, yet all the whole church grant him safe, and his ^ fol- 
 lowers in danger of damnation. But if any man be a leader, 
 and a teaching heretic, and will add " schism to heresy, and 
 be obstinate in both ; he, without repentance, must needs be 
 lost, while many that succeed him in the error only, without 
 the obstinacy, may be saved : for they which are misled, and 
 swayed with the current of the time, hold the same errors with 
 their misleaders, yet not supinely, but with all sober dili- 
 gence to find out the truth ; not pertinaciously, but with all 
 readiness to submit to truth so soon as it shall be found ; not 
 uncharitably, but retaining an internal communion with the 
 whole visible church of Christ in the fundamental points of 
 faith, and the performance of acts of charity ; not factiously, 
 but with an earnest desii'e and a sincere endeavour (as their 
 place and calling gives them means) for a perfect union and 
 communion of all Christians in truth as well as peace. I say, 
 
 p Ijisis magistris pertniiitil)us ; nisi t Donatista; vero (qui de C'ypriaui 
 
 forte ante mortem resipueriiit. Liith. authoritate sibi carnaliter l)landiuiitur, 
 
 de Serv. Arliit. S. August, de Bapt. cont. Donat. lib. i. 
 
 Ha'resiarclias plus peccant, quam alii c. iS.) nimium miseri, et, nisi se corri- 
 
 (jui haresin aliquam sunt secuti. Sup- gant, a semetipsis onniino damnati, qui 
 
 plem. Tho. 99. A. 4. C. hoc in tanto viro eligunt imitari. Il)id. 
 
 1 Si niilii videretur unus et idem c. 19. 
 li*reticus et liiereticis credens homo, " Rei falsitatis (circa accusatum Ccc- 
 
 &c. S. August, de Util. Cred. lib. i. cilianum) deprehensi Donatistae, perti- 
 
 c. 1. et Hpist. 162. ad Donatist. Episc. naci dissensione firmata, schisma in \\w- 
 
 r S. Matt, xviii. 17. Qui oppugnant resin veterunt. S.August, lib. de Hwres. 
 
 regulam veritatis. S. August, lil). de hair. 69. — Et tales, sui) vocabulo Chris- 
 
 Hneresibus, versus fiueni. tiano, doctrinaj resistunt Christianaj. S. 
 
 s Cypriaiuis l)eatus,et martyr. S.Au- August, de Civ. Dei, lib. xviii. c. 51. 
 
 gust, de Bapt. cont. Donat. lib. i. c. 18. priu. 
 
2Q6 Archbishop Laud against 
 
 Sect. 36, 37. these, however misled, are neither heretics nor schismatics 
 in the sight of God, and are therefore in a state of salvation. 
 And were not this true divinity, it would go very hard with 
 many poor Christian souls, that have been and are misled on 
 all sides, in those and other distracted times of the church of 
 Christ ; whei-eas, thus habituated in themselves, they are, by 
 God's mercy, safe in the midst of those waves in which their 
 misleaders perish. I pray you mark this ; and so, by God's 
 grace, will I : for our ^ reckoning will be heavier, if we thus 
 mislead on either side, than theirs that follow us. But I see 
 I must look to myself, for you are secure ; for, 
 
 £■. Dr. White (said I) hath secured me, that none of our 
 errors be damnable, so long as we hold them not against 
 our conscience. And I hold none against my conscience. 
 Sect. 37. 13. — I. It seems then you have two securities, Dr. AVhite's 
 assertion and your conscience. What assurance Dr. White 
 gave you I cannot tell of myself; nor, as things stand, may 
 I rest upon your relation. It may be you use him no better 
 than you do me. And sure it is so ; for I have since spoken 
 with Dr. White, the late reverend bishop of Ely, and he 
 avows this, and no other answer. He was asked, in the 
 conference between you, whether popish errors were funda- 
 mental. To this he gave an answer, by distinction of the per- 
 sons which held and professed the errors ; namely, that the 
 errors were fundamental reductive, by a reducement, if they 
 which embraced them did pertinaciously adhere to them, hav- 
 ing sufficient means to be better informed. Nay, further, 
 that they were materially, and in the very kind and nature 
 of them, leaven, dross, hay, and stuhbley. Yet ho thought 
 withal that such as were misled by education, or long custom, 
 or overvaluing the sovereignty of the Roman church, and did 
 in simplicity of heart embrace them, might by their general 
 repentance and faith in the merit of Christ, attended with 
 charity and other virtues, find mercy at God's hands. But 
 that he should say sie/nanter, and expressly, That none either 
 
 X Qui etsi ipsi postmodum ad eccle- pace perieriii\t, (pionim anima' in die 
 
 siam redeunt, restituere tamen cos, et judicii de iiisoriiin inauihiis ex]>eteiitiir, 
 
 secum revocare non possiint, fpii al) fpii ])erditioiiis aiitliorcs et duces exsti- 
 
 iis seducti suut, et foris morte pi-.Tventi icnint. S. Cypr. lib. ii. cpist. i. 
 extra ecdesiam siue commiinicatioue et y i Cor. iii. 12. 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 267 
 
 of yours or your fellows"' errors were damnable, so long as you Sect, 3 7. 
 hold them not against conscience, that he utterly disavows. 
 You delivered nothing to extort such a confession from him : 
 and for yourself, he could observe but small love of truth, few 
 signs of grace in you, (as he told me :) yet he will not presume 
 to judge you, or your salvation; it is the ^tvonl of Christ 
 that must judge you at the latter day. For your conscience, 
 you are the happier in your error that you hold nothing 
 against it ; especially if you speak not against it while you 
 say so. But tliis no man can know but yourself; ^for no 
 man knotvs the thoughts of a man, but the spirit of a man that is 
 within him : to which I leave you. 
 
 II. — To this A. C. replies. And first he grants, " that Dr. A. C. p. 67. 
 White did not signanter and expressly say these precise 
 words. So then here is his plain confession : "■ not these precise 
 words." Secondly, he saith, " that neither did Dr. White sig- 
 nanter and expressly make the answer above mentioned." But 
 to this I can make no answer, since I was not present at the 
 first or second conference. Thirdly, he saith, " that the reason 
 which moved the Jesuit to say Dr. White had secured him, 
 was because the said doctor had granted, in his first confer- 
 ence with the Jesuit, these things following : first, that there 
 must be one or other church continually visible." Though Dr. 
 White, late bishop of Ely, was more able to answer for him- 
 self, yet since he is now dead, and is thus drawn into this 
 discourse, I shall, as well as I can, do him the right which 
 his learning and pains for the church deserved. And to this 
 first, I grant, as well as he, " that there must be some one 
 church or other continually visible :" or that the militant 
 church of Christ must always be visible in some particulars, 
 or particular at least, (express it as you please.) For if this 
 be not so, then there may be a time in which there shall not 
 anywhere be a visible profession of the name of Christ ; 
 which is contrary to the whole scope and promise of the 
 gospel. 
 
 III.— Well, what then I Why then A. C. adds, " that Dr. a. C. p. 67. 
 White confessed, that this visible church had in all ages 
 taught that unchanged faith of Christ in all points funda- 
 mental." Dr. White had reason to say that the visible church 
 
 ^ Joli. xii. 4S. a I Cor. ii. n. 
 
268 Archbishop Laud against 
 
 Sect. 37. taught so ; but that this or that particular visible church did 
 so teach, sure Dr. AVhite affirmed not, unless in case the 
 whole visible church of Christ were reduced to one particular 
 only. 
 A. C. p. 67. IV.— But suppose this ; what then \ Why then A. C. tells 
 us, that " Dr. AVhite being urged to assign such a church, ex- 
 pressly granted he could assign none different from the Roman, 
 which held, in all ages, all points fundamental." Now here I 
 would tain know what A. C means by " a church different from 
 the Koman." For if he mean different in place, it is easy to 
 affirm the Greek church, which (as hath '^ before been proved) 
 hath ever held and taught the foundation in the midst of all 
 her pressures. And if he mean different in doctrinal things, 
 and those about the faith, he cannot assign the church of 
 Eome for holding them in all ages. But if he mean different 
 in the foundation itself, the Creed, then his urging to assign a 
 church is void, be it Rome, or any other : for if any other 
 church shall thus differ from Rome, or Rome from itself, as 
 to deny this foundation, it doth not, it cannot remain a differ- 
 ino- church, sed transit in non ecclesiam, but passes away into 
 no church, upon the denial of the Creed. 
 
 V. — Now what A. C. means, he expresses not, nor can I 
 tell ; but I may, peradventure, guess near it, by that which 
 A. C. p. 67. out of these premises he would infer. For hence, he tells us, 
 " he o-athered, that Dr. White's opinion was, that the Roman 
 church held and taught in all ages unchanged faith in all 
 fundamental points, and did not in any age err in any point 
 fundamental." This is very well; for A. C. confesses, he did 
 but gather that this was Doctor White's opinion. And what 
 if he gathered that which grew not there, nor thence ? For 
 suppose all the premises true, yet no cart-rope can draw this 
 conclusion out of them : and then all A. C.'s labour is lost. 
 For o-rant some one church or other must still be visible; 
 and grant that this visible church held all fundamentals of 
 the faith in all ages ; and grant again, that Dr. AVhite could 
 not assign any church differing from the Roman that did 
 this ; yet this will not follow, that therefore the Roman did it : 
 and that because there is no more in the conclusion than in 
 A. C. p. 67. the premises. For A. C.\s conclusion is, " That in Dr. White's 
 
 '' Sect. 9. 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 269 
 
 opinion, the Roman church held and taught in all ages un- Sect. 37- 
 changed faith in all fundamental points.'' And so far, perhaps, 
 the conclusion may stand, taking fundamental points in their 
 literal sense, as they are expressed in creeds and approved 
 councils. But then he adds : " and did not, in any age, err 
 in any point fundamental." Now this can never follow out of 
 the premises before laid down. For say, some one church or 
 other may still be visible, and that visible church hold all 
 fundamental points in all ages, and no man be able to name 
 another church difterent from the church of Rome, that hath 
 done this ; yet it follows not therefore, " That the church of 
 Rome did not err, in any age, in any point fundamental." 
 For a church may hold the fundamental point literally, and, 
 as long as it stays there, be without control ; and yet err 
 grossly, dangerously, nay damnably, in the exposition of it. 
 And this is the church of Rome's case. For most true it is, 
 it hath in all ages maintained the faith unchanged in the ex- 
 pression of the articles themselves ; but it hath, in the expo- 
 sition both of creeds and councils, quite changed and lost the 
 sense and the meaning of some of them. So the faith is in 
 many things changed, both for life and belief, and yet seems 
 the same. Now that which deceives the world is, that 
 because the bark is the same, men think this old decayed 
 tree is as sound as it was at first, and not weather-beaten in 
 any age. But when they can make me believe that painting 
 is true beauty, I will believe too, that Rome is not only sound, 
 but beautiful. 
 
 VI. — But A. 0. goes on, and tells us, " That hereupon the A.C. p. 67. 
 Jesuit asked, whether errors in points not fundamental were 
 damnable : and that Dr. White answered, They were not, 
 unless they were held against conscience." It is true, that 
 error in points not fundamental is the more damnable, the 
 more it is held against conscience : but it is true too, that 
 error in points not fundamental may be damnable to some 
 men, though they hold it not against their conscience. As 
 namely, when they hold an error in some dangerous points, 
 which grate upon the foundation ; and yet will neither seek 
 the means to know the truth, nor accept and believe truth 
 when it is known ; especially being men able to judge, which, 
 I fear, is the case of too many at this day in the Roman 
 
270 Archbishop Laud against 
 
 Sect. 37. church. Out of all which, A. C. tells us, "• the Jesuit collected, 
 A. c. p. 68. that Dr. White's opinion was, that the Roman church held 
 all points fundamental, and only eri'ed in points not funda- 
 mental ; which he accounted not damnable, so long as he did 
 not hold them against his conscience. And that thereupon 
 he said Dr. White had secured him, since he held no faith 
 different from the Roman, nor contrary to his conscience.'' 
 Here again we have but A. O.'s and the Jesuit's collection ; 
 but if the Jesuit or A. C. will collect amiss, who can help it? 
 
 VII. — I have spoken before in this very paragraph to all 
 the passages of A. C, as supposing them true, and set down 
 what is to be answered to them in case they prove so. But 
 now it is most apparent by Dr. White's answer, set down 
 before '^at large, that he never said, that the church of Rome 
 erred only in points not fundamental, as A. 0. would have it ; 
 but that he said the contrary ; namely, " That some errors of 
 the church were fundamental reductive, by a reducement, if 
 they which embraced them did pertinaciously adhere to them, 
 having sufficient means of information." And again expressly, 
 " That he did not say, that none were damnable, so long as 
 they were not held against conscience." Now where is A. C.'s 
 collection ? For if a Jesuit, or any other, may collect proposi- 
 tions which are not granted him, nay, contrary to those 
 which are granted him, he may infer what he please. And 
 he is much to blame, that will not infer a strong conclusion 
 for himself, that may frame his own premises, say his adver- 
 sary what he will. And just so doth A. C. bring in his con- 
 clusion, to secure himself of salvation, " because he holds no 
 faith but the Roman, nor that contrary to his conscience :" 
 presupposing it granted, that the church of Rome errs only in 
 not fundamentals, and such errors not damnable, which is 
 A. C. p. 67. absolutely and clearly denied by Dr. White. To this A. 0. 
 says nothing, but " that Dr. White did not give this answer 
 at the conference." I was not present at the conference 
 between them, so to that I can say nothing as a witness : 
 but I think all that knew Dr. White will believe his affirma- 
 tion as soon as the Jesuit's, to say no more. And whereas 
 A. C. p. 67. A. 0. refers to the relation of the conference between Dr. 
 
 c beet. 37. num. I. 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 271 
 
 White and Mr. Fisher, most true it is, there <^ Dr. White is Sect. 37. 
 charged to have made the answer twice. But all this rests 
 upon the credit of A. C. only ; (for ^he is said to have made 
 that relation too, as well as this :) and against his credit I 
 must engage Dr. White's, who hath avowed another answer, 
 as f before is set down. ' 
 
 VIII. — And since A. C. relates to that conference, which, 
 it seems, he makes some good account of, I shall here, once 
 for all, take occasion to assure the reader, that most of the 
 points of moment in that conference with Dr. White are 
 repeated again and again, and urged in this conference, or 
 the relation of A. C, and are here answered by me. For 
 instance : (1) In the relation of the first conference, the Jesuit 
 takes on him to prove the unwritten word of God out of 
 3 Thcs. ii., page 15. And so he doth in the relation of this 
 conference with me, page 50. (2) In the first, he stands upon 
 it, " That the protestants, upon their principles, cannot hold 
 that all fundamental points of faith are contained in the 
 Creed,'"' page 19. And so he doth in this, page 46. (3) In 
 the first, he would fain, through Master Rogers his sides, 
 wound the church of England, as if she were unsettled in the 
 article of Chrisfs descent into hell, page 2 1 . And he endea- 
 vours the same in this, page 46. (4) In the first, he is very 
 earnest to prove, " That the schism was made by the protest- 
 ants," page 23. And he is as earnest for it in this, page ^^. 
 (5) In the first, he lays it for a ground, " That corruption of 
 manners is no just cause of separation from faith or church," 
 page 24. And the same ground he lays in this, p. ^c^. (6) In 
 the first, he will have it, " That the Holy Ghost gives con- 
 tinual and infallible assistance to the church," page 24. And 
 just so will he have it in this, page ^^. (7) In the first, he 
 makes much ado about the " erring of the Greek church," 
 page 28. And as much makes he in this, page 44. (8) In the 
 first, he makes a great noise about the place in St. Augustine, 
 Ferendus est disputator errans, &c., pages 18. and 24. And 
 so doth he here also, page 45. (9) In the first, he would make 
 his proselytes believe, that he and his cause have mighty ad- 
 
 d A. C. in his relation of that con- c For so it is said in the title page, 
 ference, p. 26. by A, C. 
 
 f Sect. 37. num. I. 
 
^72 Arclihhhop Laud against 
 
 Sect. 37. vantage by that sentence of St. Bernard, '• It is intolerable 
 pride," and that of St. Augustine, " It is insolent madness, 
 to oppose the doctrine or practice of the catholic church," 
 page 25. And twice he is at the same art in this, pages 56. 
 and 73. (10) In the first he tells us, that S Calvin confesses, 
 " that in the reformation there was a departure from the 
 whole world," page 25. And though I conceive Calvin spake 
 this but of the Roman world, and of no voluntary, but a forced 
 departure, and wrote this to Melaucthon, to work unity among 
 the reformers, not any way to blast the reformation ; yet we 
 must hear of it again in this, page ^6. (11) But over and 
 above the rest, one place with his own gloss upon it pleases 
 him extremely ; it is out of Athanasius his Creed : " That 
 whosoever doth not hold it entire ; that is, saith he, " in all 
 points, and inviolate, that is, saith he, " in the true, unchanged, 
 and uncorrupted sense proposed unto us by the pastors of his 
 catholic church, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly." 
 This he hath almost verhatim in the first, page 20. And in 
 the epistle of the publisher of that relation to the reader, 
 under the name of W. I., and then again the very same in 
 this, if not with some more disadvantage to himself, page 70. 
 And perhaps (had I leisure to search after them) more points 
 than these. Now the reasons which moved me to set down 
 these particulars thus distinctly are two. The one, that 
 whereas the h Jesuit affirms, that in a second conference all 
 the speech was about particular matters, and little or nothing 
 about the main and great general point of a continual, infal- 
 lible, visible church, in which that lady recpiired satisfaction, 
 and that therefore this third conference was held; it may 
 hereby appear that the most material both points and proofs 
 are upon the matter the very same in all the three conferences, 
 though little be related of the second conference by A. C, as 
 appears in the preface of the publisher, W. I., to the reader. 
 So this tends to nothing but ostentation and show. The 
 other is, that whereas the men boast so much of their cause 
 and their ability to defend it ; it cannot but appear by this, 
 and their handling of other points in divinity, that they labour 
 
 g Postqiiam discessionem a toto '' In the begimiiiig of the conference 
 roundo facere coacti snmns. C'alv. set ont hy A. ('.. 
 Epist. 141. 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 273 
 
 indeed, but no otherwise than Hkc a horse in a mill, round Sect. 37, :-,i 
 about in the same circle, no further at night than at noon ; 
 the same thing over and over again ; from Tii es Petriis to 
 Pasce oves; from Thou art Peter, to Do tlioii feed my sheep ; and 
 back again the same way. 
 
 §, The lady asked, whether she might be saved in the 
 protestant faith \ Upon my soul, (said the bishop,) you 
 may. Upon my soul, (said I,) there is but one saving 
 faith, and that is the Roman. 
 U. I. — So (it seems) I was confident for the faith professed Sect. 38. 
 in the church of England, else I would not have taken the 
 salvation of another upon my soul. And sure I had reason 
 of this my confidence. For to believe the scripture and the 
 creeds; to believe these in the sense of the ancient primitive 
 church; to receive the four great general councils, so much 
 magnified by antiquity ; to believe all points of doctrine ge- 
 nerally received as fundamental in the church of Christ, is a 
 faith, in which to live and die cannot but give salvation. And 
 therefore I went upon a sure ground in the adventure of my 
 soul upon that faith. Besides, in all the points of doctrine 
 that are controverted between us, I would fain see any one 
 point maintained by the church of England that can be proved 
 to depart from the foundation. You have many dangerous 
 errors about the very foundation, in that which you call the 
 Roman faith ; but there I leave you to look to your own soul 
 and theirs whom you seduce. Yet this is true too, that there 
 is but one saving faith. But then every thing which you call 
 de fide, of the faith, because some council or other hath de- 
 fined it, is not such a breach from that one saving faith, as 
 that he which expressly believes it not, nay, as that he 
 which believes the contrary, is excluded from salvation, so his 
 • disobedience therewhile offer no violence to the peace of the 
 church, nor the charity which ought to be among Christians. 
 And l^ Bellarmine is forced to grant this ; " There are many 
 things de fide, which are not absolutely necessary to salva- 
 tion."" 'Therefore there is a latitude in the faith, especially 
 
 i Sect. ■\^. num. V. lann. de Eccles. Milit. lib. iii. c. 14. §. 
 
 k IMulta sunt de fide, qu;e non sunt Quinto, si esset. 
 absolute necessaria ad salutem. Bel- l Wald. Doct. Fid. lib. ii. Ar. 2. §. 13, 
 
274 ArclMshop Laud against 
 
 Sect. 38. in reference to different men's salvation. To set '"bounds to 
 this, and strictly to define it for particular men, just thus far 
 you must believe in every particular, or incur damnation, is 
 no work for my pen. These two things I am sure of. One, 
 that your peremptory establishing of so many things, that are 
 remote deductions from the foundation, to be believed as 
 matters of faith necessary to salvation, hath, Avith other errors, 
 lost the peace and unity of the church, for which you will one 
 day answer. And the other, that you of Eome are gone fur- 
 ther from the foundation of this one saving faith than can ever 
 be proved we of the church of England have done. 
 
 II. — But here A. C. bestirs himself, finding that he is come 
 upon the point which is indeed most considerable. And first 
 
 A.C. p. 68. he answers, " That it is "not sufficient to beget a confidence 
 in this case, to say we believe the scriptures and the Creeds 
 in the same sense which the ancient primitive church believed 
 them," &c. Most true, if we only say and do not believe. 
 And let them which believe not while they say they do, look 
 to it on all sides ; for on all sides I doubt not, but such there 
 are. But if we do say it, you are bound in charity to believe 
 us, (unless you can prove the contrary ;) for I know no other 
 proof to men of any point of faith, but confession of it, and 
 subscription to it. And for these particulars we have made 
 the one and done the other. So it is no bare saying, but you 
 have all the proof that can be had, or that ever any church 
 i-equired ; for how far that belief or any other sinks into a 
 man's heart, is for none to judge but God. 
 
 A.C. p. 68. III. — Next, A. C. answers, " That if to say this be a suffi- 
 cient cause of confidence, he marvels why I make such dif- 
 ficulty to be confident of the salvation of Koman catholics, 
 who believe all this in a far better manner than protestants 
 
 "' Sect. 38. ntim. VIII. question made or suspicion had of any 
 
 11 Pope Pelagius the Second thonght man's faitli that professed that faith 
 
 it was sufficient. For when the bishops which the apostles delivered, as it is ex- 
 
 of Istria deserted his communion in j)licated by those great councils. And 
 
 causa ti-ium capitulorum, he first gives yet now with A. C. it is not sufficient, 
 
 them an account of his faith, that he Or else he holds the faith of our Lord 
 
 embraced that faitli which the apostles Jesus Christ in such respect of persons, 
 
 had delivered and the four synods ex- (contrary to the apostle's rule, James 
 
 plicated. And then he adds : Ubi ergo ii. 12,) as that profession of it which 
 
 de fidei firmitate nulla vobis poterit was sufficient for pope Pelagius, shall 
 
 quiestio vel suspicio generari, &.c. tJon- not be sufficient for the poor protest- 
 
 cil. torn. iv. p. 473. edit. Paris. So then ants, 
 that pope thought there could be no 
 
Fisher the J emit. TiB 
 
 do/"' Truly, to say this, is not a sufficient cause, but to say Sect. 38. 
 and believe it, is. And to take off A, C/s wonder why I 
 make difficulty, great difficulty, of the salvation of Roman 
 catholics, who, he says, " believe all this, and in a far better 
 manner than protestants do," I must be bold to tell him, 
 that Romanists are so far from believing this in a better man- 
 ner than we do, that, imder favour, they believe not part of 
 this at all. And this is most manifest ; for the Romanists 
 dare not believe but as the Roman church believes : and the 
 Roman church at this day doth not believe the scripture and 
 the Creeds in the sense in the which the ancient primitive 
 church received them ; for the primitive church never inter- 
 preted Christ's descent into hell to be no lower than limhts 
 patrum ; nor did it acknowledge a purgatory in a side-part 
 of hell : nor did it ever interpret away half the sacrament 
 from Christ''s own institution ; which to break, "Stapleton con- 
 fesses expressly, is a damnable error : nor make the intention 
 of the priest of the essence of baptism ; nor believe worship 
 due to images ; nor dream of a transubstantiation, which the 
 learned of the Roman party dare not understand properly for 
 a change of one substance into another ; for then they must 
 grant that Christ's real and true body is made of the bread, 
 and the bread changed into it, which is properly transubstan- 
 tiation : nor yet can they express it in a credible way, as 
 appears by PBellarmine's struggle about it, which yet in the 
 
 o Stapleton's Return of Untruths body of Christ ; and yet there shall he 
 
 upon Bishop Jewel, Art. 2. Untruth 49. no conversion at all, lint a bringing- of 
 
 fol. 44. the body of Christ, before preexistent, 
 
 P Est totalis conversio suhstantiee pa- to be now under the species of bread, 
 
 nis et vini in corpus et sanguinem Do- where before it was not. Now this is 
 
 mini. Bellarm. de Euchar. lil). iii. c. iS. merely translocation, it is not tiansu/i- 
 
 §, I. — Substantialis conversio, sen tran- stantiation ; and I would have Bellar- 
 
 substantiatio, sicut ecclesia appellat. mine, or any Jesuit for him, shew 
 
 Greg, de Valen. tom. iv. Disp. 6. q. 3. where conversio adductiva is read in 
 
 punct. 3. Now you shall see what any good autlior. But when Bellar- 
 
 stufF Bellarmine makes of this. Con- mine comes to the recognition of his 
 
 versio panis in corpus Domini, nee est works, upon this place he tells us, that 
 
 productiva, nee conservativa, sed ad- some excepted against him, as if this 
 
 ductiva. Nam corpus Domini praex- were translocation, rather than tran- 
 
 istit ante conversionem, sed non sub substantiation. So in this charge upon 
 
 speciebus panis. Conversio igitur non him I am not alone. And fain would 
 
 facit, ut corpus Christi simpliciter esse he shift off this, i)ut it will not be. But 
 
 incipiat, sed ut incipiat esse sub spe- while he is at it he runs into twa pretty 
 
 ciebus panis, &c. Bellarm. de Euchar. errors, beside the main one ; the first 
 
 lib. iii. c. 18. §. Ex his colliginms. — So is, that the body of Christ in the sacra- 
 
 upon the whole matter, there shall be ment begins to be, non tit in loco, sed 
 
 a total conversion of the bread into the ut substantia sub accidentibus. Now 
 
 T 2 
 
276 Archbishop Laud against 
 
 Sect. 38. end cannot be or be called tramuhstantiation, and is that 
 which at this day is a 1 scandal to both Jew and Gentile, and 
 the church of God. 
 
 A. C. p. 69. IV. — For airthis, A. C. goes on, and tells us, " That they (of 
 Rome) cannot be proved to depart from the foundation so 
 much as protestants do." So then we have at last a confes- 
 sion here that they may be proved to depart from the founda- 
 tion, though not so much or so far as the protestants do. 
 I do not mean to answer this, and prove that the Romanists 
 do depart as far or further from the foundation than the pro- 
 testants, for then A. 0. would take me at the same lift, and 
 say I granted a departure too. Briefly therefore I have 
 named here more instances than one ; in some of which they 
 have erred in the foundation, or very near it. But for the 
 church of England, lot A. C. instance, if he can, in any one 
 point in which she hath departed from the foundation. Well, 
 
 A.C. p. 69. that A. C. will do ; for ho says, " The protestants err against 
 the foundation by denying infallible authority to a general 
 council, for that is in effect to deny infallibility to the whole 
 catholic church." ^No, there is a great deal of difference 
 between a general council and the whole body of the church. 
 And when a general council errs, as the second of Ephesus 
 
 let Bellarmine, or A. C. for him, give tliis gross opinion was but confirmed in 
 me any one instance, that a hodily suh- the council of Lateran : it liad got some 
 stance under accidents is or can lie any footing in the cliurcli tlie two blind 
 where, and not ut in loco, as in some ages before. For Berengarius was made 
 place, ■ and lie says somewhat. The recant in such terms as tlie Romanists 
 second is, that some Fathers and others are put to their sliifts to excuse. Bel- 
 seem (he says, but I see it not) to ap- larm. de Fuchar. lib. iii. c. 24. §. Quar- 
 prove of his manner of speech of con- turn argimienttun. For he says ex- 
 version by adilvclion. And he tells us pressly, Corpus Christi posse in sacra- 
 for this, tliat Bonaventure says ex- mento sensualiter mauibus sacerdotum 
 pressly, In transubstantiatione lit, ut tractari, et frangi, et fidelium dentibus 
 quod erat alicubi, sine sui nnitatione atteri. Deer, de Consecratione, par. 3. 
 sit alibi. Now first, here is nothing Dist. 2. C. Ego Berengarius. Now this 
 that can be drawn with cart-ropes to i-ecantation was made about the year 
 prove conversion by adduction. For if 1050; and the council of Lateran was 
 there be conversion, there must be in the year 1 2 15. Between this gi-oss 
 change : and this is sine miitatione sui. recantation of Berengarius and that 
 And secondly, I would fain know iiow council, the great learned physician and 
 a body that is alicubi shall be alil/i, philosoplier Averroes lived, and took 
 without change of itself, and yet that scandal at the whole body of Christian 
 this shall be rather transubstantiation religion for this. And thus he saitli ; 
 than translocation ; besides, it is a Mundum peragravi, Si.c. et non vidi 
 phrase of very sour conseipience, sectam deteriorem aut magis fatuam 
 (should a man squeeze it,) which Bel- Christiana, quia Deum, quern cohint, 
 larmine uses there even in his Kecogni- dentibus devorant. Espenca?us de Eu- 
 tion ; Pauls transit in corpus Clu-isti. char. Adoratione, lib. iv. c. 3. 
 q A scandal, and a grievous one. For r Sect. 33. consid. 4. num. I. 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 277 
 
 did, out of that great catholic body another may be gathered, Sect. 38. 
 
 as was then that of Chalcedon, to do the truth of Christ that 
 
 right which belongs unto it. Now if it were all one in effect 
 
 to say a general council can err, and that the whole church 
 
 can err, there were no remedy left against a general council 
 
 erring; « which is your case now at Rome, and which hath 
 
 thrust the church of Christ into more straits than any one 
 
 thing besides. But I know where you would be. A general 
 
 council is infallible, if it be confirmed by the pope ; and the 
 
 pope he is infallible, else he could not make the council so. 
 
 And they which deny the councirs infallibility deny the 
 
 pope's, which confirms it. And then indeed th(^ protestants 
 
 depart a mighty way from this great foundation of faith, the 
 
 pope's infallibility. But God be thanked this is only from 
 
 the foundation of the present Roman faith, (as A. C. and the A. C. p. 68. 
 
 Jesuit call it,) not from any foundation of the Christian faith, 
 
 to which this infallibility was ever a stranger. 
 
 v.— From answering, A.C. falls to asking questions. 1 think 
 he means to try whether he can win any thing upon me by 
 the cunning way, a multis interrogationibus simul, by asking 
 many things at once, to see if any one may make me slip into 
 a confession inconvenient. And first he asks, "How pro- a. C. p. 69. 
 testants, admitting no infallible rule of faith but scripture 
 only, can be infallibly sure that they believe the same entire 
 scripture and Creed, and the four first general councils, and 
 in the same incorrupted sense in which the primitive church 
 believed f It is just as I said ; here are many questions in 
 one, and I might easily be caught, would I answer in gross to 
 them all together: but I shall go more distinctly to work. 
 Well then, I admit no ordinary rule left in the church of 
 divine and infidlible verity, and so of faith, but the scripture. 
 And I believe the entire scripture, first, by the tradition of 
 the church, then by all other credible motives, as is before 
 expressed, and last of all by the light which shines in the 
 scripture itself, kindled in believers by the Spirit of God. 
 Then I believe the entire scripture infallibly, and by a divine 
 infallibility am sure of my object : then am I as sure of my 
 believing, which is the act of my faith conversant about this 
 object ; for no man believes, but he must needs know in him- 
 
 s Sect. 33- coiisid. 7. num. IV . 
 T 3 
 
278 Arclihhliop Laud apainst 
 
 Sect. 38. self whether he beUeves or no, and wherein and how far he 
 doubts. Then I am infallibly assured of my creed, the tradi- 
 tion of the church inducing and the scripture confirming it. 
 And I believe both scripture and Creed in the same uncor- 
 rupted sense which the primitive church believed them ; and 
 am sure that I do so believe them, because I cross not in my 
 belief any thing delivered by the primitive church ; and this 
 again I am sure of, because I take the belief of the primitive 
 church as it is expressed and delivered by the councils and 
 ancient Fathers of those times. As for the four councils, if 
 A. C. ask how I have them, that is, their true and entire 
 copies, I answer, I have them from the church tradition only ; 
 and that is assurance enough for this : and so I am fully as 
 sure as A. C. is, or can make me. But if he ask how I know 
 infallibly I believe them in their true and uncorrupted sense, 
 then I answer, there is no man of knowledge but he can 
 understand the plain and simple decision expressed in the 
 canon of the council, where it is necessary to salvation. And 
 for all other debates in the councils, or decisions of it in 
 things of less moment, it is not necessary that I or any man 
 else have infallible assurance of them ; though I think it is 
 possible to attain, even in these things, as much infallible 
 assurance of the uncorrupted sense of them as A. C. or any 
 other Jesuits have. 
 A. C. p. 69. VI. — A. C. asks again, " What text of scripture tells that 
 protestants now living do believe all this, or that all this is 
 expressed in those particular Bibles, or in the writings of 
 the Fathers and councils, which now are in the protestants' 
 hands V Good God ! whither will not a strong bias carry even 
 a learned judgment ! Why, what consequence is there in this I 
 The scripture now is the only ordinary infallible rule of divine 
 faith ; therefore the protestants cannot believe all this before 
 mentioned, unless a pai'ticular text of scripture can be slievved 
 for it : is it not made plain before how we believe scripture to 
 be scripture, and by divine and infallible faith too, and yet 
 we can shew no particular text for it i Beside, were a text of 
 scripture necessary, yet that is for the object and the thing 
 which we are to believe, not for the act of our believing, 
 which is merely from God, and in ourselves, and for which 
 \\Q cannot have any warrant from or by scripture more than 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 279 
 
 that we ought to beheve, but not that we in our particular Sect. 38. 
 do beheve. The rest of the question is far more inconsequent, 
 " Whether all this be expressed in the Bibles which are in 
 protestants' hands ?" For first, we have the same Bibles in 
 our hands which the Romanists have in theirs; therefore, 
 either we are infallibly sure of ours, or they are not infallibly 
 sure of theirs; for we have the same book, and delivered 
 unto us by the same hands ; and all is expressed in ours that 
 is in theirs. Nor is it of moment in this argument that we 
 account more apocryphal than they do; for I will acknow- 
 ledge every fundamental point of faith as proveable out of 
 the canon, as we account it, as if the apocryphal were added 
 unto it. Secondly, A. 0. is here extremely out of himself 
 and his way, for his question is, " ^Vhether all this be ex- 
 pressed in the Bibles which we have T All this I All what ? 
 Why, before there is mention of the four general councils ; 
 and in this question here is mention of the writings of the 
 Fathers and the councils. And what ! will A. C. look that 
 we must shew a text of scripture for all this, and an express 
 one too ! I thought, and do so still, it is enough to ground 
 beUef upon t necessary consequence out of scripture, as well as 
 upon express text. And this I am sure of, that neither I 
 nor any man else is bound to believe any thing as necessary 
 to salvation, be it found in councils, or Fathers, or where you 
 will, "if it be contrary to express scripture, or necessary con- 
 sequence from it. And for the copies of the councils and 
 Fathers which are in our hands, they are the same that are 
 in the hands of the Romanists, and delivered to posterity by 
 tradition of the church, which is abundantly sufficient to war- 
 rant that. So we are as infallibly sure of this as it is possible 
 for any of you to be ; nay, are we not more sure I for we 
 
 t Non potest aliquid certum esse cer- lib. iii. c. 14.— Testimonia diviiia in 
 
 titudine fidei, nisi aut immediate coiiti- fundaniento poiieiida sunt. S. Aug. de 
 
 neatur in verbo Dei, aut ex verbo Dei Civ. Dei, lib. xx. c. I.— Quia principia 
 
 per evidentem consequentiam deduca- hujus doctrinaj per revelationem ha- 
 
 tur. Bellarm. de Justif. lib. iii. c. 8. bentur, &c. Thorn, p. i. q. i. A. 8. ad 2. 
 
 s 2, .Solis scripturarum libris canonicis didici 
 
 u Xec ego Nicienum, nee tu debes luuic honorem deferre, ut nullum aii- 
 
 Ariminense tanqnam pra?judicaturus thorem eorum in scribendo errasse ali- 
 
 proferre concili\mi. Nee ego hujus au- quid tirmissime credam. Alios auteni 
 
 thoritate, nee tu illius detineris. Scrip- ita lego, ut quantalibet sanctitate, doc- 
 
 turarum authoritatibus, &c. res cum trinaque prwpolleant, non ideo verum 
 
 re, causa cum causa, ratio cum ratione putem, quod ipsi ita sensenuit, vel 
 
 concertet. S, Aug. cout. Maxiniinum, scripserunt. S.August. Lpist. 19. 
 
 T4 
 
280 Archhlshop Laud against 
 
 Sect. 38. have used no index expurgatorius upon the ^vritings of the 
 Fathers'', as ,you have done : so that posterity hereafter 
 must thank us for true copies both of councils and Fathers, 
 and not you. 
 
 A.C. p. f;9. VII. — But A. C. goes on, and asks still, "Whether pro- 
 testants be inftillibly sure that they rightly understand the 
 sense of all which is expressed in their books, according to that 
 which was understood by the primitive church, and the Fathers 
 which were present at the four first general councils V A. 0. 
 may ask everlastingly, if he will ask the same over and over 
 again. For, I pray, wherein doth this differ from his first 7 ques- 
 tion, save only that here scripture is not named ? For there 
 the question was of our assurance of the incorrupted sense : 
 and therefore thither I refer you for answer, with this, that it 
 is not required, either of us or of them, that there should be 
 had an infallible assurance that we rightly understand the 
 sense of all that is expressed in our books. And I think I 
 may believe without sin that there are many things expressed 
 in these books (for they are theirs as well as ours) which 
 A. C. and his fellows have not infallible assurance that they 
 rightly understand in the sense of the primitive church, or the 
 Fathers present in those councils. And if they say, Yes, they 
 can, because when a difficulty crosses them, they believe them 
 in the church's sense ; yet that dry shift will not serve. For 
 belief of them in the church''s sense is an implicit faith ; but 
 it works nothing distinctly upon the understanding. For by 
 an implicit faith no man can be infallibly assured that he 
 doth rightly understand the sense, (which is A. C.'s question,) 
 whatever perhaps he may rightly believe. And an implicit 
 faith and an infallible understanding of the same thing under 
 the same considerations, cannot possibly stand together in 
 the same man at the same time. 
 
 A.C. p.69. yill. — A. 0. hath not done asking yet; but he would 
 further know, " Whether protestants can be infaUibly sure, 
 that all and only those points which protestants account fun- 
 damental, and necessary to be expressly known by all, were 
 so accounted by the primitive church f Truly unity, in the 
 faith is very considerable in the church. And in this the 
 
 " Sixtus Senens. in Epist. ad Piiim Quintum. y Sect. 38. num. V. 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 281 
 
 protestants agi'ee, and as uniformly as you, and have as infal- Sect. 38. 
 lible assurance as you can have of all points which they 
 account fundamental, yea, and of all which were so accounted 
 by the primitive church. And these are but the Creed, and 
 some few, and those immediate deductions from it. And 
 ^-TertuUian and aRufinus upon the very clause of the catholic 
 church, to decipher it, make a recital only of the fundamental 
 points of faith. And for the first of these, the Creed, you see 
 what the sense of the primitive church was by that famous 
 and known place of ''Irena?us; where, after he had recited 
 the Creed as the epitome or brief of the faith, he adds, " That 
 none of the governors of the church, be they never so potent 
 to express themselves, can say alia ah his, other things from 
 these : nor none so weak in expression as to diminish this 
 tradition. For since the faith is one and the same, he that 
 can say much of it says no more than he ought ; nor doth 
 he diminish it that can say but little." And in this the pro- 
 testants all agree. And for the second, the immediate 
 deductions, they are not formally fundamental for all men, but 
 for such*^ as are able to make or understand them. And for 
 others, it is enough if they do not obstinately or schismati- 
 cally refuse them, after they are once revealed. Indeed you 
 account many things fundamental, which were never so 
 accounted in any sense by the primitive church ; such as are 
 all the decrees of general councils, which may be all true, but 
 can never be all fundamental in the faith. For it is not in the 
 power of 'ithe whole church, much less of a general council, to 
 make any thing fundamental in the faith that is not con- 
 tained in the letter or sense of that common faith which was 
 
 z Tertull. Praescript. adversus Hseres. cite credere, sicut et tenetur habere fi- 
 
 c. 13, &c. dem. Quantum autem ad alia credi- 
 
 a Rutin, in Symb. bilia, &c. iioii tenetur explicite credere, 
 
 t> Et neque qui valde potens est in nisi qnando hoc ei constiterit in doc- 
 
 dicendo ex ecclesise prajfectis alia ab his trina fidei contineri. Thom. 2. 2. q. 2. 
 
 dicet, &c. Neque debilis in dicendo A. 5. C. — Potest quis errare credendo 
 
 hanc traditionem imminuet. Quum o])positum ahcui articulo subtili, ad cu- 
 
 enim una et eadem fides sit, neque is, jusfidemexplicitam non onmes tenentur. 
 
 qui inultum de ea dicere potest, plus- Holkot. in 1. sent. q. i. ad quartum. 
 
 quam oportet, dicit, neque qui parum, d Resolutio Occhanii est, Quod nee 
 
 ipsam imminuit. Iren«us, Adv. Haer. tota ecclesia, nee concilium generale, nee 
 
 lib. i. c. 2. et 3. Et S. Basil. Serm. summus pontifex potest facere articu- 
 
 de Fide, torn. ii. p. 195. edit. Basil. 1505. lum quod non fuit articulus. Articulus 
 
 — Unaetim mobilis regula,&c. Tertull. enim est ex eo solo, qui a Deo reve- 
 
 de Velaud. V'irp. c i. latus est. Almain. in 3. Sent. D. 15. 
 
 c Quantum ad prima credibilia, qu;p q. unica. Conclus. 4. Dub. 3. 
 sunt articuli fidei, tenetur homo exjili- 
 
282 Archbishop Laud against 
 
 Sect. 38. once given (and but once for all) to the saints ^. But if it be 
 A. O.'s meaning to call for an infallible assurance of all such 
 points of faith as are decreed by general councils, then I must 
 be bold to tell him, all those decrees are not necessary to 
 all men"'s salvation. Neither do the Romanists themselves 
 agree in all such detennined points of faith, be they deter- 
 mined by councils or by popes. For instance : after those 
 books (which we account apocryphal) were *^ defined to be 
 canonical, and an anathema pronounced in the case, sSixtus 
 Senensis makes scruple of some of them. And after h pope 
 Leo X. had defined the pope to be above a general council, 
 yet many Roman catholics defend the contrary ; and so do all 
 the Sorbonnists at this very day. Therefore, if these be funda- 
 mental in the faith, the Romanists differ one from another in 
 the faith, nay, in the fundamentals of the faith, and there- 
 fore cannot have infallible assui'ance of them. Nor is there 
 that unity in the faith amongst them, which they so much 
 and so often boast of. For what scripture is canonical is a 
 great point of faith. And I believe they will not now confess 
 that the pope"'s power over a general council is a small one. 
 And so let A, 0, look to his own infallible assurance of funda- 
 mentals in the faith ; for ours, God be thanked, is well. And 
 since he is pleased to call for a particular text of scripture to 
 prove all and every thing of this nature, which is ridiculous in 
 itself, and unreasonable to demand, (as hath been shewed';) 
 yet when he shall be pleased to bring forth but a particular 
 known tradition, to prove all and every thing of this on their 
 side, it will then be, perhaps, time for him to call for and for 
 us to give further answer about particular texts of scripture. 
 A.C.p.69. IX. — After all this questioning, A. C. infers, "That I 
 had need seek out some other infallible rule and means by 
 which I may know these things infallibly ; or else that I have 
 no reason to be so confident as to adventure my soul that 
 one may be saved living and dying in the protestant faith." 
 How weak this inference is, will easily appear by that which 
 I have already said to the premises : and yet I have some- 
 
 e Jude 3. terminatis per sum. pontificem, &c. 
 
 f Concil. Trid. Sess. 4. Alniaiii. in .^. Sent. D. 24. q. unica. Con- 
 
 s Six. Senens. Bildioth. Sanct. lib. i. clus. 6. Dubit. 6. fine, 
 h Non est necessario credendum de- i Sect. 38. num. VI. 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 283 
 
 what left to say to this inference also. And first, I have Sect. 38. 
 lived, and shall, God willing, die in the faith of Christ, as it 
 was professed in the ancient primitive church, and as it is pro- 
 fessed in the present church of England. And for the rule 
 which governs me herein, if I cannot be confident for my soul 
 upon the scripture, and the primitive church expounding and 
 declaring it, I will be confident upon no other. And secondly, 
 I have all the reason in the world to be confident upon this 
 rule ; for this can never deceive me : anothei', (that very other 
 which A. C. proposes,) namely, the faith of the Roman church, A. C. p. 72. 
 may. Therefore, with A. C.'s leave, I will venture my salva- 
 tion upon the rule aforesaid, and not trouble myself to seek 
 another of man's making, to the forsaking and weakening of 
 this which God hath given me. For I know they committed 
 ttoo evils, which forsook the fountain of living waters, to heiv out 
 to themselves cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water ^. 
 For here is the evil of desertion of that which was right, and 
 the evil of a bad choice of that which is hewed out with much 
 pains and care, and is after useless and unprofitable. But 
 then, thirdly, I find that a Romanist may make use of an 
 implicit faith at his pleasure, but a protestant must know all 
 these things infallibly ; that is A. C's word, " know these 
 things." Why, but is it not enough to believe them ? Now 
 God forbid it should. Else what shall become of millions of 
 poor Christians in the world, which cannot know all these 
 things, much less know them infallibly I Well, I would not 
 have A. C. weaken the belief of poor Christians in this fashion. 
 But for things that may be known as well as believed, nor I 
 nor any other shall need forsake the scripture, to seek another 
 rule to direct either our conscience or our confidence. 
 
 X. — In the next place A.C. observes, " That the Jesuit was j^ c. p. 69. 
 as confident for his part, with this difiference, that he had suffi- 
 cient reason of his confidence, but I had not for mine." This 
 is said with the confidence of a Jesuit, but as yet, but said. 
 Therefore he goes on, and tells us, " That the Jesuit had A. C. p. 70. 
 reason of his confidence out of express scriptures, and 
 Fathers, and the infallible authority of the church." Now 
 truly, express scriptures, with A. C.'s patience, he hath not 
 named one that is express, nor can he. And the few scrip- 
 
 k Jer. ii. 13. 
 
284 Archbishop Laud against 
 
 Sect. 38. tures which he hath alleged I have ' answered, and so have 
 others. As for Fathers, he hath named very few, and with 
 what success I leave to the reader's judgment. And for the 
 authority of the catholic church, I hold it ■" as infallible as he, 
 and upon better grounds ; but not so of a general council, 
 which he here means, as appears "after. And, for my part, 
 I must yet think (and I doubt A. 0. will not be able to dis- 
 prove it) that express scripture, and Fathers, and the autho- 
 rity of the church, will rather be found proofs to warrant my 
 
 A. C. p. 70. confidence than his. Yea, but A. C. saith, " That I did not 
 then tax the Jesuit with any rashness." It may bp so : nor 
 did he me. So there we parted even. Yea, but he saith 
 again, " That I acknowledge there is but one saving faith, and 
 that the lady might be saved in the Roman faith, which was 
 all the Jesuit took upon his soul." Why, but if this be all, I 
 will confess it again. The first, that there is but one faith, I 
 confess with St. Paulo. And the other, that the lady might 
 be saved in the Roman faith, or p church, I confess, with that 
 charity which St. Paul teacheth me, namely, to leave all men, 
 especially the weaker both sex and sort, which hold the 
 foundation, to stand or fall to their oimi master^. And this is 
 no mistaken charity. As for the inference which you would 
 draw out of it, that is answered at large "^ already. But then 
 
 A. C. p. 70. A. 0. adds, " That I say, but without any proof, that the 
 Romanists have many dangerous errors ; but that I neither 
 tell them which they be, nor why I think them dangerous, 
 but that I leave them to look to their own souls ; which," he 
 says, " they do, and have no cause to doubt." How much 
 the Jesuit and A. 0. have said in this conference without any 
 solid proof, I again submit to judgment ; as also what proofs 
 I have made. If in this very place I have added none, it is 
 because I had made proof enough of the selfsame thing 
 before s. Where, lest he should want, and call for proof again, 
 I have plainly laid together some of the many dangerous 
 errors which are charged upon them. So I tell you which, at 
 least some of which, they be : and their very naming will 
 
 1 Sect. 25. num. V. Sect. 33. coiisid. P Sect. 35. num. I. 
 3. num. J. q Rom. xiv. 4. 
 
 ni Sect. 21. num. V. r Sect. 35. imm. II. 
 
 n A. C. p. 71. s Sect. J,^. num. XII. Sect. 35. 
 
 " Ephes. iv. 5. iiinn. VII. 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 285 
 
 show their danger. And if I did remit you to look to your Sect. 38. 
 own souls, I hope there was no offence in that, if you do it, 
 and do it so, that you have no cause to doubt. And the 
 reason why you doubt not, A. C. tells us, is, "Because youA.C. p. 70. 
 had no new device of your own, or any other men s, nor any 
 tliino- contrary to scripture ; but all most conformable to 
 scriptures interpreted by union, consent of Fathers, and deh- 
 nitions of councils." Indeed, if this were true, you had little 
 cause to doubt in point of your belief. But the truth is, you 
 do hold new devices of your own, which the primitive church 
 was never acquainted with : and some of those, so far from 
 being conformable, as that they are little less than contradic- 
 tory to scripture. In which particulars, and divers others, the 
 scriptures are not interpreted by union, or consent of Fathers, 
 or definitions of councils ; unless perhaps by some late coun- 
 cils packed of purpose to do that ill service. I have given 
 instances enough u before ; yet some you shall have here, lest 
 you should say again that I affirm without proof or instance. 
 I ^ pray then, whose device was transubstantiation ? yAnd 
 whose, communion under one kind? ^And whose, depo- 
 sition and unthroning, nay, killing of princes, and the like,, 
 if they were not yours 1 For I dare say, and am able 
 to prove, there is none of these but are rather contrary, 
 than conformable to scripture. Neither is A. 0. or any 
 
 u Sect. 3.5. num. XII. Sect. 35. num. that speaks it out. Rex debet occidi, si 
 
 VII. solicitet poptilimi colere idola, vel de- 
 
 " Concil. I/ateran. Can. i. serere legem Dei. Tostat. in 2 Sam. 
 
 y Concil. Const. Sess. 13. c. 11. q. 17. And he makes bold with 
 
 z Propter hteresin rex non solum scripture to prove it, Deut. xiii. And 
 
 regno privatur, sed et filii ejus a regni Emanuel Sa in his Aphorisms, verbo 
 
 snccessione pelluntur. Simanca, Cathol. Tyrannus ; yet he is so moderate, that 
 
 Instit. tit. 9. §. 2t,C). Absoluti sunt sub- he would not have this done till he be 
 
 diti a debito fidelitatis : et custodes Ar- sentenced ; but then, Quisquis potest 
 
 ciuin, &c. Ibid. tit. 46. §. 37. It was fieri executor. Mariana is far worse ; 
 
 stiffly avowed not long since by for he says it is lawful to kill him, post- 
 
 " Tliat no man could shew any one Ro- quam a panels seditiosis sed doctis coe- 
 
 nian catholic of note and learning, that perit tyrannus api)ellari. De Rege et 
 
 affirmed it lawful to kill kings upon any Reg. Institutione, lib. i. cap. 6. Yea, 
 
 pretext whatsoever." Now surely he but INIariana was disclaimed f(»r this by 
 
 that says (as Romanists do) that it is the Jesuits. Yea, but for all that, there 
 
 lawful to depose a king, says upon the was an apology printed in Italy, anno 
 
 matter, it is lawful to kill him. For 1610, permissu superiorum. And there 
 
 kings do not \ise to be long lived after it is said, " They were all enemies of 
 
 their deposition : and they seldom stay the holy name of Jesus, that condemned 
 
 till gi-ief breaks their hearts : they have Mariana for any such doctrine. As for 
 
 assassinates ready to make shorter work. Tostatus, no sentence hath touched upon 
 
 But since he is so confident, I will give him at all for it. 
 him an author of note, and very learned, 
 
286 Archhishop Laud against 
 
 Sect. 38. Jesuit able to shew any ^ scripture interpreted by union, or 
 ''consent of the Fathers of the primitive church, to prove any 
 one of these ; nor any definition of ancient councils, but only 
 ^Lateran, for transubstantiation, and that of <l Constance for 
 the eucharist in one kind. Which two are modern, at least, 
 far downward from the primitive church ; and have done 
 more mischief to the church by those their determinations, 
 than will be cured, I fear, in many generations. So whatever 
 A. C. thinks, yet I had reason enough to leave the Jesuit to 
 look to his own soul. 
 A. C. p. 70. XI. — But A. C, having, as it seems, little new matter, is at 
 the same again, and over and over it must go, that there is 
 but one saving faith ; that this one faith was once the Ro- 
 man ; and that I granted one might be saved in the lloman 
 faith. To all which I have abundantly answered ^ before. 
 Marry then he infers, that he sees not how we can have our 
 souls saved without we entirely hold this faith, being the 
 catholic faith, which, St. Athanasius saith, " unless a man hold 
 entirely, he cannot be saved." Now here again is more in 
 the conclusion than in the premises, and so the inference fails. 
 For say there was a time in which the catholic and the Ro- 
 man faith were one ; and such a time there was when the 
 Roman faith was catholic and famous through the world "^i 
 yet it doth not follow, since the s council of Trent hath added 
 a new Creed, that this Roman faith is now the catholic ; for 
 it hath added extranea^ things without the foundation, dis- 
 putable, if not false conclusions to the faith. So that now a 
 man may believe the whole and entire catholic faith, even as 
 St. Athanasius requires, and yet justly refuse for dross a great 
 part of that which is now 'Hhe Roman faith. And Athana- 
 
 a Corpus Christi veraciter esse in f Rom. i. 8. 
 
 eucharistia ex evangelio habenius : con- g Coiicil. Trident. Bulla Pii 4. super 
 
 versionem vero panis in corpus Christi forma juramenti professionis fidei ad fi- 
 
 evangelium non explicavit, sed expresse neni. Cone Trident, 
 
 ab ecclesia accepimus. Cajetan. in li And this is so mn.ch the more re- 
 
 Thom. 3 q. 7.1;. Art. i. markahle, if it l)e true which Thomas 
 
 b De transubstantiatione panis in hath. 8. Athanasium non composnisse 
 
 corpus Christi rara est in antiquis scrip- banc manifestationem fidei per modum 
 
 toribus mentio. Alph. a Castro, lib. viii. symboli, sed per modnm doctrins, &c. 
 
 advers. Ha»r. verbo Indnlgentia. Et deinde authoritate summi pontificis 
 
 c Concil. Lateran. Can. i. receptam esse, ut quasi regnla fidei ha- 
 
 d Concil. Const. Sess. 13. beatur. Thom. 2. 28e. q. 1. A. 10. ad 3. 
 
 = Sect. 35. num. I. and Sect. 38. Symbolo apostolorum addita sunt duo 
 
 num. X. alia, scilicet symbolum Nicanum, et 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 287 
 
 sius himself, as if he meant to arm the catholic faith against Sect. 38. 
 all corrupting additions, hath, in the beginning of his 'Creed, 
 these words, " This is the catholic faith ;" this, and no other; 
 this and no other than here follows. And again, at the end 
 of his Creed, " i^This is the catholic faith;" 'this, and no more 
 than is here delivered, (always presupposing the Apostles*' 
 Creed, as Athanasius did,) and this is the largest of all Creeds. 
 So that if A.C. would wipe his eyes from the mist which rises 
 about Tiber, he might see how our souls may be saved, be- 
 lieving the catholic faith, and that entire, without the addi- 
 tion of Roman leaven. But if he cannot, or, I doubt, will not 
 see it, it is enough that by God's grace we see it. And 
 therefore once more I leave him and his to look to their own 
 souls. 
 
 XII. — After, this A.C. is busy in unfolding the meaning A. C. p. 70. 
 of this great Father of the church, St. Athanasius. And he 
 tells us, " that he says in his Creed, that without doubt every 
 man shall perish that holds not the catholic faith entire" 
 (that is," saith A. C, " in every point of it) and inviolate 
 (that is, in the right sense), and for the true formal reason of 
 divine revelation, sufficiently applied to our understanding by 
 the infallible authority of the catholic church, proposing to 
 us by her pastors this revelation." Well, we shall not differ 
 much from A. C. in expounding the meaning of St. Athana- 
 sius ; yet some few things I shall here observe. And first, I 
 agree, that he which hopes for salvation, must believe the 
 catholic faith whole and entire in every point. Next, I agree, 
 that he must likewise hold it inviolate if to believe it in the 
 right sense be to hold it inviolate. But by A. C.'s leave, the 
 believing of the Creed in the right sense is comprehended in 
 the first branch, the keeping of it whole and entire. For no 
 man can properly be said to believe the whole Creed, that 
 believes not the whole sense as well as the letter of it, and as 
 entirely. But thirdly, for the word inviolate, it is indeed used 
 by him that translated Athanasius ; but the Father's own 
 
 S. Athanasii, ad majorem fidei expla- des, extra qiiam nemo salviis esse pot- 
 
 juitioneni. Biel. in 3 Sent. D. 25. <[. est, itc. Bulla Pii 4. super forma jura- 
 
 unica. A. i. D. menti professionis fidei. In fine Con- 
 
 i 8. Athanas. in Symb. oil. Trident. 
 
 li And yet the council of Trent, having 1 Integram fidei veritatem ejus 
 
 added twelve new articles, says thus of doctrina breviter continet. Thom. 2. 
 
 them also : Haec est vera catholica fi- 2ce. q. i. A. 10. ad 3. 
 
288 Archhishop Laud against 
 
 Sect. 38. words, following the common edition, are, " that he that will 
 be saved, must keep the faith vyiri nal aixuniovr Now i/yt?)? is 
 the sound and entire faith : and it cannot be a sound faith 
 unless the sense be as whole and entire as the letter of the 
 Creed. And a//co/>ios is compounded of the privative particle 
 a and juwjuo?, which is reproach, or infamy. So that afxcoixos 
 signifies the holding of the entire faith in such holiness of life 
 and conversation, as is without all infamy and reproach. 
 That is, as our English renders that Creed exceeding well : 
 " Which faith unless a man do keep whole and "undefiled," 
 even with such a life as Momus himself shall not be able to 
 carp at. So Athanasius (who, certainly, was passing able to 
 express himself in his own language) in the beginning of that 
 his Creed requires, that we keep it entire, without diminu- 
 tion ; and undefiled, without blame ; and at the end, that we 
 believe it faithfully without wavering. But inviolate is the 
 mistaken word of the old interpreter, and with no great know- 
 ledge made use of by A. C. And then fourthly, though this 
 be true divinity, that he which hopes for salvation must be- 
 lieve the whole Creed, and in the right sense too, (if he be 
 able to comprehend it,) yet I take the true and first meaning 
 of inviolate (could Athanasius's word ajuw/xos have signified 
 so) not to be the holding of the true sense, but not to offer 
 violence, or a forced sense or meaning upon the Creed, which 
 every man doth not, that yet believes it not in a true sense. 
 For not to believe the true sense of the Creed is one thing ; 
 but it is quite another to force a wrong sense upon it. Fifthly, 
 a reason would be given also why A. C. is so earnest for the 
 whole faith, and baulks the word which goes with it, which 
 is, holy, or undefiled. For Athanasius doth alike exclude 
 from salvation those which keep not the catholic faith holy., 
 as well as these which keep it not tnhole. I doubt, this was 
 to spare many of his '•holy Fathers, the popes, who were as 
 far as any (the very lewdest among men, without exception) 
 from keeping the catholic faith holy. Sixthly, I agree to the 
 next part of his exposition, that a man that will be saved 
 must believe the whole Creed, for the true formal reason of 
 divine revelation. For upon the truth of God thus revealed 
 
 n Sic ecclesia dicitur Syuoi/xos, Eph. v. 27. et in veteri glossario, immaculaUis, 
 Hficcfios. o Sect. 35. num. VI. 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. ^289 
 
 by himself, lies the infallible certainty of the Christian faith. Sect. 38, 
 But I do not grant that this is within the compass of St. 
 Athanasius his word a//,a)/xo?, nor of the word inviolate. But in 
 that respect, it is a mere strain of A, 0. And then lastly, 
 though the whole catholic church be sufficient in applying 
 this to us and our belief, not our understanding, which A. C. A. C. p. 70. 
 is at again, yet infallible she is not in the proposal of this 
 revelation to us by every of her pastors ; some whereof 
 amongst you, as well as others, neglect or forget, at least, to 
 feed Chrisfs sheep, as Christ and his chm'ch hath fed them. 
 
 XIII. — But now that A. C. hath taught us (as you see) A. C. p. 70. 
 the meaning of St. Athanasius, in the next place he tells us, 
 " That if we did believe any one article, we (finding the same 
 formal reason in all, and applied sufficiently by the same 
 means to all) would easily believe all." Why surely we do 
 not believe any one article only, but all the articles of the 
 Christian faith : and we believe them for the same formal 
 reason in all ; namely, because they are revealed from and by 
 God, and sufficiently applied in his word and by his church's 
 ministration. " But so long as they do not believe all in this 
 sort,'" saith A. C. Look you, he tells us we do not believe A. C. p. 70. 
 all, when we profess we do. Is this man become as God, that 
 he can better tell what we believe than we ourselves ? Surely 
 we do believe all, and in that sort too: though I believe, 
 were St. Athanasius himself alive again, and a plain man 
 should come to him and tell him he believed his Creed in all 
 and every particular, he would admit him for a good catholic 
 Christian, though he were not able to express to him the 
 formal reason of that his belief. " Yea, but," saith A.C., " while A. C. p. 70. 
 they will, as all heretics do, make choice of what they will 
 and what they will not believe, without relying upon the infal- 
 lible authority of the catholic church, they cannot have that 
 one saving faith in any one article." Why, but whatsoever 
 heretics do, we are not such, nor do we so. For they which 
 believe all the articles (as once again I tell you we do) make 
 no choice : and we do rely upon the infallible authority of the 
 word of God and the whole catholic church : and therefore 
 we both can have, and have that one saving faith, which be- 
 lieves all the articles entirely, though we cannot believe that 
 any particular church is infallible. 
 
 u 
 
290 Archbishop Laud against 
 
 Sect. 38. XIV. — And yet again, A. C. will not thus be satisfied, but 
 A. C. p. 71. on he goes, and adds, " That although we believe the same 
 truth which other good catholics do in some articles, yet not 
 believing them for the same formal reason of divine revela- 
 tion, sufficiently applied by infallible church-authority, &c. 
 we cannot be said to have one and the same infallible and 
 divine faith which other good catholic Christians have, who 
 believe the articles for this formal reason, sufficiently made 
 known unto them, not by their own fancy nor the fallible 
 authority of human deductions, but by the infallible authority 
 of the church of God." If A. C. will still say the same thing, 
 I must still give the same answer. First, he confesses we 
 believe the same truth in some articles, (I pray mark his 
 phrase,) " the same truth in some articles," with other good 
 catholic Christians. So far his pen hath told truth against his 
 will : for he doth not (I wot well) intend to call us catholics, 
 and yet his pen being truer than himself, hath let it fall. For 
 the word other cannot be so used as here it is, but that we as 
 well as they must be good catholics ; for he that shall say. 
 The old Romans were valiant as well as other men, supposes 
 the Romans to be valiant men ; and he that shall say, The 
 protestants believe some articles as well as other good catho- 
 lics, must, in propriety of speech, suppose them to be good 
 catholics. Secondly, as we do believe those some articles, so 
 do we believe them and all other articles of faith for the same 
 formal reason, and so applied, as but just p before I have 
 expressed. Nor do we believe any one article of faith by our 
 own fancy, or by fallible authority of human deductions ; but, 
 next to the infallible authority of God's word, we are guided 
 by his church. But then A. C. steps into a conclusion, whi- 
 A. C. p. 7i.ther we cannot follow him : for he says, " That the article to 
 be believed must be sufficiently made known unto us by the 
 infallible authority of the church of God ; that is, of men in- 
 fallibly assisted by the Spirit of God, as all lawfully called, 
 continued, and confirmed general councils are assisted." That 
 the q whole church of God is infallibly assisted by the Spirit 
 of God, so that it cannot by any error fall away totally from 
 Christ the foundation, I make no doubt : for if it could, the 
 
 P Sect. 38. num. XIII. q Sect. 21. num. V. 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 291 
 
 gates of hell had prevailed against it; which our Saviour as- Sect. 38. 
 siires me "^they shall never be able to do. But that all general 
 councils, be they never so lawfully called, continued, and con- 
 firmed, have infallible assistance, I utterly deny. It is true, 
 that a general council de post facto, after it is ended, and ad- 
 mitted by the whole church, is then infallible ; for it cannot 
 err in that which it hath already clearly and truly determined 
 without error. But that a general council a parte ante, when 
 it first sits down and continues to deliberate, may truly be 
 said to be infallible in all its after-determinations, whatsoever 
 they shall be, I utterly deny. And it may be, it was not with- 
 out cunning that A. C. shuffled these words together, called, 
 continued, and confirmed : for be it never so lawfully called and 
 continued, it may err. But after it is confirmed, that is, ad- 
 mitted by the whole church, then being found true, it is also 
 infallible ; that is, it deceives no man. For so all truth is, 
 and is to us, when it is once known to be truth. But then, 
 many times that truth, which being known is necessary and 
 infallible, was before both contingent and fallible in the way 
 of proving it, and to us. And so here, a general council is a 
 most probable, but yet a fallible way of inducing truth, though 
 the truth once induced may be (after it is found) necessary 
 and infallible. And so likewise the very council itself, for that 
 particular in which it hath concluded truth : but A. 0. must 
 both speak and mean of a council set down to deliberate, or 
 else he says nothing. 
 
 XV. — Now^ hence A.C. gathers, "That though every thing de- A. C. p. ; 
 fined to be a divine truth, in general councils, is not absolutely 
 necessary to be expressly known and actually believed (as 
 some other truths are) by all sorts ; yet no man may (after 
 knowledge that they are thus defined) doubt deHberately, 
 much less obstinately deny, the truth of any thing so defined." 
 Well, in this collection of A.C, first, we have this granted, 
 that every thing defined in general councils is not absolutely 
 necessary to be expressly known and actually believed by all 
 sorts of men : and this no protestant, that I know, denies. 
 Secondly, it is affirmed, that after knowledge that these truths 
 are thus defined, no man may doubt deliberately, much less 
 
 r Matt. xvi. 18. 
 
 U 2 
 
292 Archbishop Laud against 
 
 Sect. 38. , obstinately deny any of them. Truly, obstinately (as the 
 word is now in common use) carries a fault along with it : 
 and it ought to be far from the temper of a Christian to be 
 obstinate against the definitions of a general council. But 
 that he may not, upon very probable grounds, in an humble 
 and peaceable manner, deliberately doubt, yea, and upon 
 demonstrative gi-ounds, constantly deny even such definitions, 
 yet submitting himself and his grounds to the church, in that 
 or another council, is that which was never till now imposed 
 upon believers. For it is one thing for a man deliberately to 
 doubt, and modestly to propose his doubt for satisfaction, 
 which was ever lawful and is many times necessary ; and 
 quite another thing for a man, upon the pride of his own judg- 
 ment. Ho refuse external obedience to the council ; which to 
 do was never lawful, nor can ever stand with any government : 
 for there is all the reason in the world the council should bo 
 heard for itself, as well as any such recusant whatsoever, and 
 that before a judge as good as itself at least. And to what 
 end did t St. Augustine say " that one general council might 
 be amended by another, the former by the latter," if men 
 might neither deny, nor so much as deliberately doubt of any 
 of these truths defined in a general council ? And A. 0. 
 should have done well to have named but one ancient Father 
 of the primitive church that ever affirmed this. "For the 
 assistance which God gives to the whole church in general, 
 is but in things simply necessary to eternal salvation ; there- 
 fore more than this cannot be given to a general council ; 
 no, nor so much. But then, if a general council shall for- 
 get itself, and take upon it to define things not absolutely 
 necessary to be expressly known or actually believed, (which 
 are the things which A. C. here speaks of;) in these, as 
 neither general council, nor the whole church have infal- 
 lible assistance, so have Christians liberty, modestly and 
 peaceably, and upon just grounds, both deliberately to doubt 
 and constantly to deny such the council's definitions. For 
 instance ; the council of Florence first defined purgatory to be 
 
 s Sect. 32. rmm. V. rioribus emendari. 
 
 t De Bapt. cont. Donat. lib. ii. cap. 3. u Sect. 21. num. V. 
 Ipsaque plenaria, saepe priora a poste- 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 293 
 
 believed as a divine truth and matter of faith, ("if that council Sect. 38. 
 had consent enough so to define it :) this was afterwards 
 deliberately doubted of by the protcstants ; after this as con- 
 stantly denied, then confirmed by the y council of Trent, and 
 an anathema set upon the head of every man that denies it. 
 And yet scarce any Father within the first three hundred 
 years ever thought of it. 
 
 XVI. — I know ^-Bellarmino affirms it boldly, " That all the 
 Fathers, both Greek and Latin, did constantly teach purgatory 
 from the very apostles' times." And where he brings his proofs 
 out of the Fathers for this point, he divides them into two ranks. 
 In the first, ^lie reckons them which affirm prayer for the 
 dead, as if that must necessarily infer purgatory ; whereas 
 most certain it is, that the ancients had and gave other rea- 
 sons of prayer for the dead, than freeing them out of any 
 purgatory : and this is very learnedly and at large set down 
 by the now learned ti primate of Armagh. But then in the 
 second, he says, "there are <^most manifest places in the 
 Fathers in which they affirm purgatory." And he names 
 there no fewer than two and twenty of the Fathers. A great 
 jury certainly, did they give their verdict with him. But first, 
 within the three hundred years after Christ, he names none 
 but Tertullian, Cyprian, and Origen. And dTertuUian speaks 
 expressly of hell, not of purgatory. ^ St. Cyprian of a purging 
 to amendment, which cannot be after this life. As for 
 f Origen, he, I think, indeed was the first founder of purgatory; 
 
 X I know the Greeks subscribed that sionis fidei. 
 council. Sed in illo concilio Graca z Omnes veteres Gr»ci et Latliii ab 
 
 ecclesia din restitit. Pet. Mart. Loc. ipso tempore apostolorum constanter 
 
 Com. chisse tertia, cap. 9. num. 13 — Et docuerunt purgatoriura esse. Bellarm. 
 
 in ultima sessione istius concilii Grseci de Purg. lib. i. cap. ii. §. De tertio 
 
 dixerunt se sine authoritate totius ec- modo. 
 
 clesiiE orientalis qusestionem aliam trac- a Bellarm. de Purg. lib. i. cap. 6. §. i. 
 tare uou posse, pra'ter illam de proces- b Jac. Usher Armachan. in his An- 
 
 sioue Spiritus Sancti. Postea vero, swer to the Jesuit's Challenge, cap. 7. 
 
 consentiente iniperatore, tractarunt de p. 194. 
 
 aliis, &c. Florent. Cone. Sess. ult. apud c Sunt apertissima loca in Patribus, 
 
 Nicolinum, tom. iv. p. 894, &c. This ubi asserunt purgatorium. Bellarm. de 
 
 savours of some art to bring in the Purg. lib. i. cap. 6. §. Delude sunt. 
 Greeks. Howsoever, this shews enough d Tertnll. lib. de Auim. cap. 1 7. 
 
 against Bellarmine, that all the Greeks infer. 
 
 did not constantly teach purgatory, as e Cypr. lib. iv. ep. 1. Emendari igiie. 
 he affirms, de Purgat. lib. i. c. 1 1. §. De f Origen. inpL apxi^f, lib. i. cap. 6. 
 
 tertio modo. S. Hieron. in Jona;iii. Bellarm. de Purg 
 
 y Concil. Trid. Sess. -25, et in Bulla lib. i. cap. 2. §. Porro non. S. .\ugust. 
 
 Pii IV. super forma juramenti profes- Civ. Dei, lib. xxi. cap. 17. 
 
 u3 
 
294) Archhishop Laud against 
 
 Sect. 38. but of such an one as, I believe, Bellarmine dares not affirm. 
 " For he thought there was no punishment after this hfe but 
 purgatory ; and that not only the most impious men, but even 
 the devils themselves should be saved, after they had suffered 
 and been purged enough." Which is directly contrary to the 
 word of God expounded by his g church. In the fourth and 
 fifth (the great and learned ages of the church) he names 
 more, as '^ St. Ambrose : but St. Ambrose says. That some 
 shall be saved quasi per ignem, as it were by fire; leaving it as 
 doubtful what was meant by that fire, as the place itself doth 
 whence it is taken, M Cor. iii. ^St. Hierome indeed names a 
 purging by fire ; but it is not very plain that he means it after 
 this life. And howsoever, this is most plain, that St. Hierome 
 is at Credimus, we believe eternal punishment; but he goes 
 no further than Arbitrarrmr, we think there is a purging. So 
 with him it was arbitrary, and therefore sure no matter of 
 faith then. And again ' he saith, that some Christians may 
 be saved post pa;nas, after some punishments endured, but he 
 neither tells us where nor when. ^ St. Basil names indeed 
 purgatory fire ; but he relates as uncertainly to that in 
 I Cor. iii. as St. Ambrose doth. As for "Paulinus, he 
 speaks for prayer for the dead, but not a word of purgatory. 
 And the place in « St. Gregory Nazianzen is far from a mani- 
 fest place. For he speaks there of baptism by fire, which is 
 no P usual phrase to signify purgatory. But yet say that here 
 he doth, there is a tvxov, a fortassis, a peradventure in the 
 words, which Bellarmine cunningly leaves out ; and if it be 
 a peradventure ye shall then be baptized with fire, why then 
 it is at a peradventure too that ye shall not. Now such 
 casual stuff" as this, peradventure you shall, and peradventure 
 you shall not, is no expression for things which are valued to 
 be dejide, and to be believed as matters of faith. Bellarmine 
 goes on with q Lactantius, but with no better success : for he 
 
 S August. Civ. Dei, lib. xxi. cap. i 7. " Greg. Naz. Oiat. .:;y. tine, 
 
 h S. Ainln-os. in Psal. xxxvi. 14. P I think tlie first that ever used that 
 
 i I Cor. iii. 15. phrase, baptitmi by fire, was Origen. 
 
 k S. Hieron. in Ixvi. Isai. tine. And he used it for niartyrdoui, as 
 
 1 S. Hieron. cont. Pelag. lib. iv. ultra clearly appears i)y a passage of his in 
 
 niedium. Euseij. Hist. Iii). vi. cap. 4. edit. Grasc. 
 
 m S. Basil, in Isai. ix. Lat. Colonia- Alio!). 161 2. 
 
 n Paulin. ep. i. '1 Lact. lib. vii. cap. 21. 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. J295 
 
 says indeed that some men perstringentur igne, shall be Sect. 38. 
 sharply touched by fire. But he speaks of such, quorum pec- 
 cata prcevaluermit^ whose sins have prevailed. And they in 
 Bellarmine's doctrine are for hell, not purgatory. As for 
 St. Hilary, ^he will not come home neither. It is true, he 
 speaks of a fire too, and one that must be endured ; but he 
 tells us, it is a punishment expiandce a peccatis animce, to 
 purge the soul from sins. Now this will not serve Bellar- 
 mine's turn : for they of Rome teach, that the sins are for- 
 given here, and that the temporal punishment only remains to 
 be satisfied in purgatory. And what need is there then of 
 purging of sins ? Lest there should not be Fathers enough, 
 he reckons in ^ Boetius too : but he, though not long before a 
 convert, yet was so well seen in this point, that he goes no 
 further than Puto^ I think that after death some souls are 
 exercised purgatoria dementia, with a purgative clemency. 
 But Puto, I think it is so, is no expression for matter of faith. 
 The two pregnant authorities which seem to come home are 
 those of Gregory Nyssen and Theodoret : but for ^ Theodoret 
 in Scholiis Grsecis, (which is the place Bellarmine quotes,) 
 I can find no such thing ; and manifest it is, Bellarmine "him- 
 self took it but upon trust. And for " St. Gregory Nyssen^ 
 it is true, some places in him seem plain ; but then they are 
 made so doubtful by other places in him, that I dare not say 
 simply and roundly what his judgment was : for he says, 
 *■' Men must be purged from perturbations, and either by 
 prayers and philosophy, or the study of wisdom, or by the 
 furnace of purgatory fire after this life."" And again, " That 
 a man cannot be partaker ^etoVrjro?, of the divine nature, unless 
 the purging fire doth take away the stains that are in his soul." 
 And again, " That after this life a purgatory fire takes away 
 the blots and propensity to evil."" And I deny not, divers 
 other like places are in him. But first, this is quite another 
 thing from the Roman purgatory. For St. Gregory tells us 
 here, that the purgatory he means purges perturbations, and 
 
 r S. Hilar, in Psal. cxviii. 20. p. 1066. edit. Paris. 1615. torn. ii. Aia 
 
 s Boetius, lib. iv. Pros. 4. Trpocrei/x'is t6 koI <pi.Ko(To<pias (KKaOapdeh 
 
 t Tlieofl ill I Cor. iii. 7) /xera rrjv, <Vc. — Thf i/j./j.ixSevTa rfj 
 
 « IJellarni. de Purj^^at. lib. i. cap. 4. \i/vxfi pv-rrhu, &ic. i'k\. p. 1067 "E;/ T9; 
 
 §. Ex (ira'cis habemus. Kadapala) nvpl aTro/SaAAorT^v, itc. ibid* 
 
 X S. Greg. Nyss. Orat. de Mortuis. p. 1068. 
 
 U4 
 
296 Archbishop Laud against 
 
 Sect. 38. stains, and blots, and propensity to evil : whereas the pur- 
 gatory which Rome now teaches purges not sin, " xbut is 
 only satisfactory by way of punishment for sins already for- 
 given, but for which satisfaction was not made before their 
 death/'' Secondly, St. Gregory Nyssen himself seems not ob- 
 scui'ely to relate to some other fire : ^ for he says expressly, 
 " That the soul is to be punished, till the vltiosity of it be 
 consumed purgatorio igne ,•"" so the translation renders it ; but 
 in the original it is tw aKotp/rw iTvpl, that is, in a fire that 
 sleeps not ; which, for aught appears, may be understood of a 
 fire that is eternal : whereas the fire assigned to purgatory 
 shall cease. Besides, St. Gregory says plainly, " The soul can- 
 not suffer by fire but in the body ; and the body cannot be 
 with it till the resurrection." Therefore ^he must needs speak 
 of a fire after the resurrection, which must be either the fire 
 of the general conflagration, or hell : purgatory he cannot 
 mean ; where, according to the Romish tenet, the soul suffers 
 without the body. The truth is, divers of the ancients, 
 especially Greeks, which were a little too much acquainted 
 with Plato's school, ^ philosophized and disputed upon this 
 and some other points with much obscurity, and as little cer- 
 tainty. So upon the whole matter, in the fourth and fifth 
 hundred year, you see here is none that constantly and per- 
 spicuously affirm it. And as for St. Augustine, he ^said and 
 'I unsaid it, and ^at the last left it doubtful; which, had it 
 then been received as a point of faith, he durst not have done. 
 Indeed then, in St. Gregoi'y the Great's time, in the beginning 
 of the sixth age, purgatory was grown to some perfection. 
 For ^St. Gregory himself is at Scio, (it was but at Puio a 
 
 y Item definimus, si vere poenitentes post mortem, sed desinmit. Et anima 
 
 ill Dei charitate decesseriut, aiitequam mox in paradisvmi, &c. S. August, 
 
 dignis pojnitentife fructibus de coinniissis cont. Foeliciainmi, cap. 15. — Et duo 
 
 et omissis satisfecerint, pueuis purga- tantum loca esse, &c. S. August. Serm. 
 
 toriis i)ost mortem purgari. Concil. Flo- 19. de Verb. Apost. cap. 15. — Et de Civ^ 
 
 rent, circa prin. per I5in. edit. Colon. Dei, lib. xxi. cap. 16. fine, negat, nisi 
 
 1618. sit ignis ille in consunmiatione Sfeculi. 
 
 z S. Greg. Nyss. de Anima et Resur. e Quaeri potest, &;c. S. Atig. in En- 
 
 tom. ii. p. 658. chirid. cap. 69. Forsitan verum est, &;c. 
 
 * S. Greg. Orat. 3. de Resurrect. S. August, de Civit. Dei, lib. xxi. ca]). 
 
 Christi. 26. Quid S. Paulus senserit, i Cor. iii. 
 
 b Non expedit philosophari altius, de igne illo, malo intelligentiores, et 
 
 &c. Orig. cont. Celsiim, lib. vi. doctiores audire. S. August, lib. de 
 
 c Constat animas purgari j)ost banc Fide et Oper. cap. 16. 
 vitam. S. August. Civit. Dei, lib. xxi. f S. Greg, in Psal. iii. Pcenitentialem 
 
 cap. 24. vide. princ. 
 
 d Justorum llagella non incipiunt 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 297 
 
 little before,) I know that some shall be expiated in purgatory Sect. 3S. 
 flames. And therefore I will easily give Bellarmine all that 
 follow : for after this time purgatory was found too warm a 
 business to be suffered to cool again. And in the afterages, 
 more were frighted than led by proof into the belief of it. 
 
 XVII. — Now by this we see also that it could not be a 
 tradition, for then we might have traced it by the smoke 
 to the apostles' times. Indeed Bellarmine would have it such 
 a tradition: for he tells us out of sSt. Augustine, " That 
 that is rightly believed to be delivered by apostolical au- 
 thority which the whole church holds, and hath ever held, 
 and yet is not instituted by any council." And he adds, 
 that purgatory is such a tradition, so constantly held in the 
 whole church, Greek and Latin; and " ^that we do not find 
 any beginning of this belief." Where I shall take the bold- 
 ness to observe these three things. First, that the doctrine 
 of purgatory was not held ever in the whole catholic church 
 of Christ. And this appears by the proofs of 'Bellarmine 
 himself produced, and I have i^ before examined. For there 
 it is manifest that scarce two Fathers directly affirm the 
 belief of purgatory for full six hundred years after Christ. 
 Therefore purgatory is no matter of faith, nor to be believed, 
 as descending from apostolical authority, by St. Augustine's 
 rule. Secondly, that we can find a beginning of this doctrine, 
 and a beginner too, namely Origen. And neither Bellannine 
 nor any other is able to shew any one Father of the church 
 that said it before him. Therefore purgatory is not to be 
 believed as a doctrine delivered by apostolical authority, by 
 Bellarmine's own rule ; for it hath a beginning. Thirdly, I 
 observe too, that Bellarmine cannot well tell where to lay 
 the foundation of purgatory, that it may be safe : for first, 
 he labours to found it upon scripture. To that end 'he 
 brings no fewer than ten places out of the Old Testament, 
 and nine out of the New, to prove it : and yet, fearing lest 
 
 e Quod universa tenet ecclesia, nee '■ Nnii invenimus initium hujus dog- 
 conciliis iiistitutum, sed semper reteii- matis, sed omnes veteres (iraeci et La- 
 tum est, non nisi authoritate apostolica tiui, &r. Bellarm. de Purg. lib. i. c. ii. 
 traditum rectissime creditur. S.August. §. I)e tertio modo. 
 
 de Bapt. cont. Donat. lib. iv. c. 24 i De Purg. lib. i. c. 6. 
 
 Nee ad sumnios poutitices referri pot- •* Sect. 38. num. XVI. 
 
 est, addit .^lelch. C'anus de Locis, 1 Bellarm. de Purgat. lib. i. c. 3, 4. 
 
 lib. iii. c. 4. prill. 
 
298 Archhishop Laud against 
 
 Sect. 38. these places be strained, (as indeed they are,) and so too 
 weak to be laid under such a vast pile of building as purga- 
 tory is I", he flies to unwritten tradition. And by this word of 
 God unwritten, he says, it is manifest that the doctrine of 
 purgatory was delivered by the apostles. Sure, if nineteen 
 places of scripture cannot prove it, I would be loath to fly to 
 tradition. And if i-ecourse to tradition be necessary, then 
 certainly those places of scripture made not the proof they 
 were brought for. And once more ; how can Bellarmine say 
 here, that we find not the beginning hujus dogmatis, of this 
 article, when he had said before, that he had found it in the 
 " nineteen places of scripture f For if in these places he 
 could not find the beginning of the doctrine of purgatory, he 
 is false while he says he did. And if he did find it there, 
 then he is false here in saying we find no beginning of it. 
 And for all his brags of '"Omnes veteres, "All the ancient 
 Greek and Latin do constantly teach purgatory ;" yet ° Al- 
 phonsus a Castro deals honestly and plainly, and tells us, 
 " That the mention of purgatory in ancient writers is fere 
 nulla, almost none at all, especially in the Greeks,'" 
 
 And he adds, " That hereupon purgatory is not believed 
 by the Grecians to this very day." And what now, I pray, 
 after all this, may I not so much as deliberately doubt of 
 this because it is now defined i and but now in a manner ? 
 and thus? No, sure. So A. C. tells you. Doubt! No. 
 For when you had fooled the archbishop of Spalatro back to 
 Rome, there you either made him say, or said it for him, (Pfor 
 in print it is, and under his name,) that since it is now de- 
 fined by the church, a man is as much bound to believe there 
 is a purgatory, as that there is a trinity of persons in the 
 
 m De tertio motlo perspicuum est, P Piirgatorium nullum esse, est mani- 
 
 &c. Bellar. de Purg. HI), i. c. 11. §.Ter- festa liH-resis, &c. M. Anton, de Do- 
 
 tio ex verbo, &c. et §. De tertio inodo, mitiis sui reditus ex Anglia coiisiliiim 
 
 &c. expoiiit. Paris. 1623. p. 17 — Merita, 
 
 n Omnes veteres Grsci et Latini, indulgentiw, et reliqua, qu« supeiius ut 
 
 &c. Bellarm. de Purgat. lib. i. c. ii. in ecclesia definita commemoravi, sunt 
 
 §. De tertio modo. omnes articuli fiindamentales, quia nou 
 
 o De purgatorio in aiitiquis scrip- minus nituntur revelationi quam priora 
 
 torii)us potissinium Grifcis fere nulla de Trinitate. Ibid. p. 32. — And so 
 
 nientio est. Qua de causa usque in much A. C. himself says of all points, 
 
 hodierniim diem purgatorium non est in which, in the doctrine of tlie faith, 
 
 a Gra!cis creditum. Alphonsus a Castro protestants differ from them, in his 
 
 advers. Ha-res. lib.viii.verbo Indulgeutia. Relation of the first Conference, p. 28. 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 299 
 
 Godhead. How far comes this short of blasphemy, to make Sect. 38. 
 the Trinity and purgatory things ahke and equally credible ? 
 
 XVIII.— Yea, but A. C. will give you a reason why no 
 man may deliberately doubt, much less deny, any thing that 
 is defined by a general council. And his reason is, '' Because A. C. p. 71. 
 every such doubt and denial is a breach from the one saving 
 faith.""' This is a very good reason, if it be true. But how 
 appears it to be true ? How ! Why, " It takes away," saith 
 A. C, " infallible credit from the church; and so the divine A. C. p. 71 
 revelation not being sufficiently applied, it cannot, according 
 to the ordinary course of God's providence, breed infallible 
 belief in us." Why, but deliberately to doubt and constantly 
 to deny, upon the grounds and in the manner q aforesaid, 
 doth not take away inftillible credit from the whole church, 
 but only from the definition of a general council, some way 
 or other misled ; and that in things not absolutely necessary 
 to all men s salvation ; for of such things ^ A. C. here speaks 
 expressly. Now to take away the infallible credit from some 
 definitions of general councils, in things not absolutely neces- 
 sary to salvation, is no breach upon the one saving faith 
 which is necessary, nor upon the credit of the catholic church 
 of Christ in things absolutely necessary ; for which only it 
 had infallible assistance promised. So that no breach being • 
 made upon the faith, nor no credit which ever it had being 
 taken from the church, the divine revelation may be and 
 is as sufficiently applied as ever it was ; and in the ordinary 
 course of God's providence may breed as infallible behef in 
 things necessary to salvation as ever it did. 
 
 XIX. — But A. C. will prove his reason before given, and 
 therefore he asks out of St. Paul, '■'^How shall men believe unless A. C. p. 71 
 they hear? how shall they hear ivithout a preacher? and hoiv shall 
 they preach, (to wit, infallibly,) unless they he sent; that is, 
 from God, and infallibly assisted by his Spirit V Here is that 
 which I have twice at least spoken to already, namely, that 
 A. C. by this will make every priest in the church of Rome 
 that hath learning enough to preach, and dissents not from 
 that church, an infallible preacher ; which no Father of the 
 
 '1 Sect. 38. num. V. known and actually believed by ;iU 
 
 r " Though every thing defined to lie sorts," &c. A. C. p. 71. 
 
 a divine truth in general councils is s Rom. x. 14, 15. 
 not absolutely necessary to be expressly 
 
300 Archbishop Laud against 
 
 Sect. 38. primitive church did ever assume to himself nor the church 
 give him : and yet the Fathers of tlie primitive church were 
 sent, and from God ; were assisted, and by God ; and did 
 sufficiently propose to men the divine revelation, and did by 
 it beget and breed up faith, saving faith, in the souls of men ; 
 thought no one among them, since the apostles, was an in- 
 fallible preacher. And A. 0. should have done very well here 
 to have made it manifest that this scripture, Hoio shall they 
 preachy (to wit, infallibly,) is so interpreted by union, consent 
 
 A. C. p. 70. <5f Fathers, and definitions of councils, as he^ bragged before 
 that they use to interpret scripture : for I do not find, How 
 shall they preachy (to wit, ^ infallibly,) to be the comment of any 
 one of the Fathers, or any other approved author ; and let 
 him shew it if he can. 
 
 XX. — After this (for I see the good man is troubled, and 
 forward and backward he goes) he falls immediately upon this 
 
 A. C. p. 71. question : " If a whole general council, defining what is divine 
 truth, be not believed to be sent and assisted by God's Spirit, 
 and consequently of infallible credit, what man in the world 
 can be said to be of infallible credit T Well, first, A. C hath 
 very ill luck in fitting his conclusion to his premises, and his 
 consequent to his antecedent : and so it is here with him. 
 For a general council may be assisted by God's Spirit, and in 
 a great measure too, and in a greater than any private man, 
 not inspired, and yet not consequently be of infallible credit : 
 
 t Alios (ah authoribus canonicae scrip- alicui, nisi quern scit posse falli et fal- 
 
 tura?) ita lege, ut quantalibet sanctitate lere, licet credat eum non velle fallere. 
 
 doctrinaque pi-»polleant, non ideo ve- Scotus in 3. Sent. D. 23. q. unica. — 
 
 rum putem, (juod ipsi ita senserunt, Therefore, in the judgment of your 
 
 vel scripserunt. Thorn, p. i. q. i. Art. own school, your preachers can both 
 
 8. ad 2. ex S. August, epist. 19. — deceive and be deceived ; and therefore 
 
 Mihi non credas, nisi demoustrationem certainly are not infallible. And M. 
 
 accipias ex sacris literis. S. Cyril. Hie- Canus very expressly makes this but an 
 
 rosol. Cat. 4. introduction to infallible faith : Primum 
 
 u A. C. p. 70. ergo id statuo juxta communem legem 
 
 " Verba liaec apostoli non possunt aliqua exteriora et hiunana incitamenta 
 
 intelligi de fide infusa, ilia enim imme- necessaria esse, quibus ad evangelii 
 
 diate a Deo creata est, et non est ex fidem inducamiir. Qiiomodo enim cre- 
 
 auditu ut hffic. Apertissime coUigitur dent ci,(/iiem non audierunt? etc. Catius 
 
 ex Biel. in 3. Sent. D. 23. q. 2. A. 2. deLocis, lib. ii.c. 8. §. Primum ergo — Et 
 
 Cone. I. — Ergo fides acquisita necessaria iterum : Si fides infusa ita fidei acqui- 
 
 est. Ibid. — Sed pncter acquisitani, in- sit;« niteretur, tanquam suo funda- 
 
 fusa etiam requiritur, et non solum mento ; ipsum fundamentum fidei nos- 
 
 propter intentionem actus, sed etiam tra> non essetdivina, sed humana Veritas, 
 
 propter assensum et certitudinem. Quia Ibid. §. Cui et tertium. Therefore 
 
 non potest esse firmus assensus a fide surely A. C. abuses this place of the 
 
 acquisita. Quia per eam nullus credit apostle very boldly. 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 301 
 
 for all assistance of God's Spirit reaches not up to infallibility. Sect. 38. 
 I hope the ancient bishops and Fathers of the primitive 
 church were assisted by God's Spirit, and in a plentiful mea- 
 sure too, and yet A. C. himself will not say they were infal- 
 lible. And, secondly, for the question itself; " If a general 
 council be not, what man in the world can be said to be of 
 infallible credit V Truly, I will make you a ready answer : No 
 man. Not the pope himself? No: let God and his word he 
 true, and emry man a liarY; for so, more or less, every man 
 will be found to be. And this is neither damage to the 
 church, nor wrong to the person of any. 
 
 XXI. — But then A. C. asks a shrewder question than this. A. C. p. 71. 
 " If such a council lawfully called, continued, and confiinned, 
 may err in defining any one divine truth, how can we be 
 infallibly certain of any other truth defined by it ? ^ for if it 
 may err in one, why not in another, and another, and so in 
 all?" It is most true, if such a council may err in one, it 
 may in another, and another, and so in all of like nature : I 
 say, in all of like nature. And A. C. may remember he ex- 
 pressed himself a little before, to speak of the defining ofA.C.p. 71. 
 such divine truths, as are not absolutely necessary to be 
 expressly known and actually believed of all sorts of men. 
 Now there is, there can be no necessity of an infallible cer- 
 tainty in the whole catholic church, and much less in a 
 general council, of things not a absolutely necessary in them- 
 selves. For Christ did not intend to leave an infallible cer- 
 tainty in his church, to satisfy either contentious, or curious, 
 or presumptuous spirits. And therefore, in things not funda- 
 mental, not necessary, it is no matter if councils err in one, 
 and another, and a third; the whole church having power 
 and means enough to see that no council err in necessary 
 things, and this is certainty enough for the church to have, 
 or for Christians to expect; especially since the foundation 
 is so strongly and so plainly laid down in scripture and 
 the Creed, that a modest man might justly wonder why any 
 man should nm to any later council, at least for any infallible 
 certainty. 
 
 XXII. — Yet A. C. hath more questions to ask; and hisA. C. p. 72. 
 
 5" Romans iii. ^. a Sect. 21. num. V. z Sect. lO. num. XV. 
 
302 Archbishop Laud afjainst 
 
 Sect. 38. next is, " How we can (according to the ordinary course) be 
 infallibly assured that it errs in one and not in another, when 
 it equally by one and the same authority defines both to be 
 divine truth T A. C, taking here upon him to defend Mr. 
 Fisher the Jesuit, could not but see what I had formerly 
 written concerning this difficult question about general coun- 
 cils. And to all that (being large) he replied little or 
 nothing. Now, when he thinks that may be forgotten, or as 
 if it did not at all lie in his way, he here turns questionist, 
 to disturb that business, and indeed the church, as much as 
 he can. But to this question also I answer again, Tf any 
 general council do now err, either it errs in things absolutely 
 necessary to salvation, or in things not necessary. If it err in 
 things necessary, we can be infallibly assured by the scripture, 
 the Creeds, the four first councils, and the whole church, 
 where it errs in one, and not in another. If it be in non 
 necessariis, in things not necessary, it is not requisite that we 
 should have for them an infallible assurance. As for that 
 which follows, it is notoriously both cunning and false. It is 
 false to suppose that a general council, defining two things 
 for divine truths, and erring in one, but not erring in another, 
 doth define both equally by one and the same authority. 
 And it is cunning, because these words, " by the same author- 
 ity," are equivocal, and must be distinguished, that the truth, 
 which A. C. would hide, may appear. Thus then, suppose a 
 general council, erring in one point, and not in another; it 
 doth define both and equally by the same delegated authority 
 which that council hath received from the catholic church. 
 But it doth not define both, and much less equally, by the 
 same authority of the scripture, (which must be the councirs 
 rule, as well as private men's;) no, nor by the same authority 
 of the whole catholic church, (who did not intentionally give 
 them equal power to define truth, and error for truth.) And 
 I hope A. C. dares not say the scripture (according to which 
 all councils that will uphold divine truth must determine) 
 doth equally give either ground or power to define error and 
 truth. 
 
 A.C.p. 72. XXIII.— To his former questions A. C. adds, "That if 
 we leave this to be examined by any private man, this exa- 
 mination not being infallible had need to be examined by 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 303 
 
 another, and this by another, without end, or ever coming to Sect. 38. 
 infalUble certainty, necessarily required in that one faith 
 which is necessary to salvation, and to that peace and unity 
 which ought to be in the church." Will this inculcating the 
 same thing never be left? I told the Jesuit "^ before, that I 
 give no way to any private man to be judge of a general 
 council: and there also I shewed the way how an erring 
 council might be rectified, and the peace of the church either 
 preserved or restored, without lifting any private spirit above 
 a council, and without this process in infinitum (which A. C. 
 so much urges, and which is so much declined in all ^ sciences). 
 For as the understanding of a man must always have some- 
 what to rest upon, so must his faith. But a d private man,-; 
 first for his own satisfaction, and after for the church's, if he 
 have just cause, may consider of and examine, by the ^ judg- i 
 ment of discretion, though not of power, even the definitions ' 
 of a general council. But A. C. concludes well, " That an ' 
 infallible certainty is necessary for that one faith which is 
 necessary to salvation."" And of that (as I expressed f before) 
 a most infallible certainty we have already in the scripture, 
 the Creeds, and the four first general councils, to which, for 
 things necessary and fundamental in the faith, we need no 
 assistance from other general councils. And some of your 
 Sown, very honest and very learned, were of the same opinion 
 with me. And for the peace and unity of the church in 
 things absolutely necessary, we have the same infallible direc- 
 tion that we have for faith. But in things not necessary, 
 (though they be divine truths also,) if about them Chris- 
 tian men do differ, it is no more than they have done, more 
 or less, in all ages of the church : and they may differ, and 
 yet preserve the ^ one necessary faith, and ' charity too, entire, 
 
 b Sect 32. num. V. Sect. 3,t,. con- centes, omnia bene a patrilius nostris 
 
 sid. 7. num. IV. ordinata ac constituta, modo ali omni- 
 
 c Arist. 1. Post. Tex. 6. el 4. Me- Ims legitime et fideliter servarentur. 
 
 taph. T. 14. Fatemur equidem id ipstmi esse verissi- 
 
 <> Sect. 38. num. XV. mum. Tamen cum nihil fere servet\ir, 
 
 e Ilic non loquim\ir de decisione, seu &c. Pet de Aliaco, lib. de Reformat, 
 
 deterniinatione doctrinali, quaadiinum- Etdes. fine. So that after-councils are 
 
 queujque virum peritum spectare di- rather to decree for observance, than 
 
 gnoscitiir; sed de authoi-itativa et judi- to make any new determinations of the 
 
 ciali, tkc. Jac Almain. lib. de Author, faith. 
 Eccles. c. 10. ])rin. h Non omnis error in his quae fidei 
 
 f Sect. 38. num. I. sunt, est aut infidelitas, aut h.ieresis. 
 
 S Sunt qui nescio qua ducti ratione Holkot. in i Sent. q. i. ad 4. K. 
 scntiunt non esse opus generali con- i Scimus quosdam quod semel imbi- 
 
 cilio (de Constar.tiensi loquitur) di- berint nolle deponerc, nee propositum 
 
304 
 
 Archbishop Laud aciainst 
 
 A. C. p. 72, 
 
 Sect. 38. if they be so well minded. I confess it were heartily to be 
 wished, that in these things also, men might be all of one 
 mind and one judgment; to which the apostle exhorts, 
 ^1 Oor. i. But this cannot be hoped for till the church be 
 triumphant over all human frailties, which here hang thick 
 and close about her ; the want both of unity and peace pro- 
 ceeding too often, even where religion is pretended, from men 
 and their humours, rather than from things, and errors to be 
 found in them. 
 
 XXIV.— And so A. C. tells me, " That it is not therefore 
 (as I would persuade) the fault of councils' definitions, but the 
 pride of such as will prefer, and not submit their private 
 judgments, that lost, and continues the loss of peace and 
 unity of the church, and the want of certainty in that one 
 aforesaid soul-saving faith. Once again, I am bold to tell 
 A.C., there is no want of certainty, most infallible certainty, 
 of that one soul-saving faith. And if, for other opinions 
 which flutter about it, there be a difference, a dangerous dif- 
 ference, as at this day there is ; yet necessary it is not, that 
 therefore, or for prevention thereof, there should be such a 
 certainty, an infallible certainty, in these things. For he 
 understood himself well that said, Oportet esse hcpreses\ 
 There must, there will be heresies. And wheresoever that 
 necessity lies, it is out of doubt enough to prove, that Christ 
 never left such an infallible assurance as is able to prevent 
 them, or such a mastering power in his church, as is able to 
 overawe them ; but they come with their oportet about them, 
 and they rise and spring in all ages very strangely. But in 
 particular, for that which first caused and now continues the 
 loss of unity in the church of Christ ; as I make no doubt 
 but that the pride of men is one cause, so yet can I not think 
 that pride is the adequate and sole cause thereof. But in 
 part pride caused it, and pride on all sides: pride in some 
 that would not at first, nor will not since, submit their private 
 judgments, where with good conscience they may and ought ; 
 
 suum facile mutare, sed salvo iiitei- 
 collegas pacis et concordia; vinculo, 
 qiiffidam propria qiiaj apud se semel 
 sint usurpata, retinere. Qua in re nee 
 nos vim cuiquam facimus, aut legem 
 damus, &c. S. Cypr. lib. ii. epist. i. — 
 Concordia qnx est cliaritatis effectus, 
 est iinio voliintatum, non opinion imi. 
 Thorn. 2. 2ae. q. 37. Art. i. C. Dis- 
 
 sentio de minimis, et de opinionibus re- 
 pugnat quidem paci perfectae, in qua 
 plene Veritas cognoscetur, et omnis ap- 
 petitus compleltitur. Non tamen re- 
 pugnat paci imperfecta?, qxialis habetur 
 in via. Thorn. 2. 2«. q. 2<). Art. 3. 
 ad 2. 
 
 k 1 Cor. i. 10. Phil. ii. 2. 
 
 1 I Cor. xi. 19. 
 
Fisher the Jemit. 305 
 
 and pride in others, that would not first, nor will not yet Spct. 38. 
 mend manifest, great, and dangerous errors ; which with all \ 
 good conscience they ought to do. But it is not pride not to 
 submit to known and gross errors : and the definitions of 
 some councils (perhaps the Lateran, Constance, and Trent) 
 have been greater and more urgent causes of breach of unity 
 than the pride of men hath been ; which yet I shall never 
 excuse, wherever it is. '' 
 
 XXV. — How far this one soul-saving faith extends, A. C a.C. p. 7^ 
 tells me I have confessed it not a work for my pen : " but, " 
 he says, " it is to be learned from that one, holy, catholic, 
 apostolic, always visible, and infallible Roman church ; of 
 which the lady, once doubting, is now fully satisfied," &c. 
 Indeed (though A. C. sets this down with some scorn, which 
 I can easily pass over) it is true that thus "^'^ I said : There is 
 a latitude in faith, especially in reference to different men's 
 salvation ; but to set a bound to this, and strictly to define 
 it, Just thus far you must believe in every particular, or incur 
 damnation, is no work for my pen. Thus I said, and thus I 
 say still. For though the foundation be one and the same in 
 all, yet a "latitude there is, and a large one too, when you 
 come to consider, not the foundation common to all, but 
 things necessary to many particular men's salvation : for to 
 whomsoever God hath given more^ of him shall more be re- 
 quired'^, as well in belief, as in obedience and performance. 
 And the gifts of God, both ordinary and extraordinary, 
 to particular men, are so various, as that, for my part, I hold 
 it impossible for the ablest pen that is to express it. And in 
 this respect I Psaid it with humility and reason, that to set 
 these bounds was no work for my pen ; nor will I ever 
 take upon me to express that tenet or opinion (the denial 
 of the foundation only excepted) which may shut any Christian 
 
 "• Sect. ,^8. num. I. which are not so for a poor ignorant 
 n Sect 38. wun. VIII. sonl. Si qnis (!e antecessorilms nos- 
 o Luke xii. 48. Unicuique secun- tris vel ignoranter vel simphciter non 
 dum ]iroportioneni suam, secundum hoc observavit, et tenuit, (]uod nos 
 dirterentiani sciential vel ignorantia*, Domiiuis facere exemjilo et niagisterio 
 Sec. Et postea : Extenditur doctriiia suo docnit, potest simplicitati ejus de 
 hwc, non sohun ad donum scientiae, in(hilgentia Domini venia concedi. No- 
 Ac. Cajetan. in S. Luc. xii. Ecce quo- bis vero non poterit ignosci, qui nunc a 
 modo scientia aggravat cnlpam. Unde Domino admoniti et instruct! sumus. 
 Gregorius, &c. (iorran. in S. Luc. xii. S. ('yi>r. lib. ii. epist. 3. 
 Therefore many things may be ueces- n Sect 38. inmi. I. 
 sary for a knowing man's salvation, 
 
 X 
 
306 Archbisho]) Laud against 
 
 Sect. 38. out of heaven. And, A. C, I believe you know very well, to 
 what a narrow scantling some ^ learned of your own side bring 
 the very foundation itself, rather than they will lose any that 
 lay hold on Christ the Son of God, the Redeemer of the 
 world. And as Christ epitomises the whole law of obedience 
 into these two great commandments, Hhe love of God and our 
 neighbour ; so the apostle epitomises the whole law of belief 
 into these two great assents, ^ that God is, and that he is a re- 
 warder of them that seek him, that seek him in Christ. And 
 St, Peter was full of the Holy Ghost when he expressed it, 
 That there is no salvation to them that seek it in or by an- 
 other name^ 
 
 XXVI. — But since this is no work for my pen, it seems A. 0. 
 will not say it is a work "for his. But he ^ tells us, " It is to 
 be learned of the one, holy, catholic, apostolic, always visible, 
 and infallible Roman church." Titles enough given to the 
 Roman church : and I wish she deserved them all, for then 
 we should have peace ; but it is far otherwise. One she is, as 
 a particular church, but not the one. Holy she would be 
 counted ; but the world may see, if it will not blind itself, of 
 what value holiness is in that court and country. Catholic 
 she is not, in any sense of the word ; for she is not the y uni- 
 versal, and so not catholic in extent : nor is she sound in 
 doctrine, and in things which come near upon the foundation 
 too ; so not =^ catholic in belief. Nor is she the prime mother- 
 
 q Articiili fidei sunt sicut prineipia larm. tie Rom. Pont. lib. iv. cap. 4. §. r. 
 
 per se nota. Et sicut qua?dam eoriim Catholica autem est ilia quae diffusa est 
 
 in aliis implicite continentur, ita omnes per universum orhem. S. Cyril. Hierosol. 
 
 articiili implicite continentur in aliqui- Catech. 18. 
 
 bus primis credibilibus, cSlC. secundum z Catholica enim dicitur ecclesia ilia 
 
 illud ad Hel). xi. Thorn. 2. 2ge. q. i. Art. qiue universaliter docet sine ullodefectn, 
 
 10. b. — In alisoluto nobis et facili est vel differentia dogmatum. S. Cyril. 
 
 aeternitas: Jesum suscitatuin a mortuis Hierosol. Catech. 18. — UndeAugustinus 
 
 per Deum credere, et ipsum esse Domi- subscripsit se episcopum catholicae ec- 
 
 num confiteri, &c. S. Hilar, de Triu. clesia; Hi|)poniregiensis. De Actis cum 
 
 lib. X. ad linem. Fa'Iice Manich. lib. i. cap. 20. et lib. ii. 
 
 ' jMatth. xxii. 37. cap. i. — Et catholica .'\lexandrinorum. 
 
 s Heb. xi. 6. Soz Hist. lib. i. 9. et lil). ii. cap. 3. And 
 
 t Acts \v. 12. so every jiarticular church is or may be 
 
 n And yet before, in this conference, called catliolic, and that truly, so long 
 
 et apud .\. C. p. 42, the Jesuit whom he as it teaches catholic doctrine. In which 
 
 defends hath said it expressly, " That sense the jiarticular Roman church was 
 
 all those are fundamental which are ne- called catholic, so long as it taught all 
 
 cessary to salvation." and only those things to be de fide, 
 
 a A. C. p. /Z. which the catholic church itself main- 
 
 y Romana ecclesia particularis. Bel- tained. But now Rome doth not so. 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 207 
 
 church of Christianity, ^ Jerusaleni was tliat ; and so not Sect. 38. 
 catliolic as a fountain or original, or as the head or root of 
 the catholic. 
 
 XXVII. — And because many Romanists object here, (though 
 A.C. doth it not,) that St. Cyprian called the " t* Roman church, 
 the root and matrix of the catholic church of Christ ;'" I hope 
 I shall have leave to explain that difficult place also. First 
 then, St. Cyprian names not Rome ; that stands only in the 
 margin, and was placed there as his particular judgment led 
 himc that set out St. Cyprian. Secondly, th(,' true story of 
 that epistle, and that which led St. Cyprian into this ex- 
 pression, was this. Cornelius, then chosen pope, expostulates 
 with St. Cyprian, that his letters to Rome were directed only 
 to the clergy there, and not to him ; and takes it ill, as if 
 St. Cyprian had thereby seemed to disapprove his election. 
 St. Cyprian replies, that by reason of the schism moved then 
 by Novatian, it was uncertain in Afric which of the two had 
 the more canonical right to the see of Rome, and that there- 
 fore ho named him not : but yet that during this imcertainty, 
 he exhorted all that sailed thither, iit ecdesuc cathoUccv 
 radicem et matricem agnoscerent et tenerent ; that in all their 
 carriage tliey should acknowledge, and so hold themselves 
 unto, the unity of the catholic church, which is the root and 
 matrix of it, and the only way to avoid participation in the 
 schism. And that this must be St. Cyprian's meaning, I 
 shall thus prove. First, because this could not he his mean- 
 ing or intention, that the see of Rome was the root or matrix 
 of the catholic church. For if he had told them so, he had 
 left them in as great or greater difficulty than he found 
 them. For there was then an open and an apparent schism 
 in the church of Rome ; two bishops, Cornelius and Novatian ; 
 
 a Supra §.35. num.IX. Other churches That is, not simply of all clmrches, but 
 
 beside the Roman are called malres of all in that patriarchate. And so 
 
 and onyinales ecclesicB, as in Tertull. lionie is the liead of all in the Roman 
 
 de Priiescript. advers. Hperes. cap. 21. patriarchate. 
 
 Et ecdesia Hierosolymitanaqna' aliarum b Kt ecclesi* catholicse radicem et 
 
 nnmium mater : Trjs Se ys /UTjrpos, &c. niatriccm agnoscerent et tenerent. S. 
 
 Theodort't, Hist. Eccles. lib. v. cap. 9. C'ypr. li'o. iv. epist. 8. 
 
 ex libello syiiodico a Concil. Constan- c Edit. Basiliens. 1530. AndSimanca 
 
 tinopol. 2. transmisse ad concilium sub also applies this speech of St. Cyprian to 
 
 Damaso turn RoniiB coactum. Et Con- Rome, tit. 24. §. 17. And so also Pame- 
 
 stantinopolitana ecdesia dicitur omnium lius upon ^^t. Cyprian. But they wrong 
 
 aliarnm caput. Cod lib i. tit. 2. leg. 24. him. 
 
 X 2 
 
308 Archbishop Laud against 
 
 Sect. 38. two congregations, which respectively attended and observed 
 them. So that a perplexed question must needs have divided 
 their thoughts, which of these two had been that root and 
 matrix of the catholic church. Therefore, had St. Cyprian 
 meant to pronounce Rome the root and matrix of the catholic 
 church, he would never have done it at such a time, when 
 Rome itself was in schism. Whereas in the other sense, the 
 counsel is good and plain ; namely, that they should hold 
 themselves to the unity and communion of the catholic church, 
 which is the root of it. And then necessarily they were to 
 suspend their communion there, till they saw how the catholic 
 church did incline, to approve or disapprove the election of 
 the one or the other. And thus St. Cyprian frees himself to 
 Cornelius from the very least touch of schism. Secondly, 
 because this sense comes home to ^^ Baronius : for he affirms, 
 that St. Cyprian and his colleagues the African bishops did 
 communionem suspendere, suspend their communion, until they 
 heard by Caldonius and Fortunatus whose the undoubted 
 right was. So it seems St. Cyprian gave that counsel to these 
 travellers which himself followed. For if Rome, during the 
 schism, and in so great uncertainty, had yet been radix ec- 
 clesice catholicw, root of the catholic church of Christ, I would 
 fain know how St. Cyprian, so great and famous an assertor of 
 the church's imity, durst once so much as think of suspending 
 communion with her. Thirdly, because this sense will be 
 plain also by other passages out of other epistles of St. Cyprian. 
 For writing to Jubaianus an African bishop against the 
 Novatians, who then infested those parts, and durst rebap- 
 tize catholic Christians, he saith thus: "^But we, who hold 
 the head and root of one church, do know for certain, and 
 believe, that nothing of this is lawful out of the catholic 
 church ; and that of baptism, which is but one, we are the 
 head, where he himself was at first baptized, when he held the 
 ground and verity of divine unity."" Now I conceive it is all 
 one, or at least as argumentative to all purposes, to be caput 
 or radix baptismafis, head or root of baptism, as head or root 
 
 d Baron. Annal. ■254. num. 64, where et baptismatis quod est umim caput nos 
 
 he cites this epistle. esse ubi et ipse baptizatus prius fuerat, 
 
 e Nos autem qui ecdesia? iiiiius ca])Ut quando diviiite uuitatis, et rationem et 
 
 et radicem tenernus, pro certo scinms, veritatem tenebat. S. Cypr. ad Jubaian. 
 
 et crediraus, nihil extra ecclesiam licere, epist. 73. edit. Pamel. 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 309 
 
 of the church ; for there is but one baptism, as well as but Sect. 38. 
 one church, and that is the entrance into this. And St. 
 Cyprian affirms and includes himself, nos esse caput, that we 
 are the head of baptism. Where yet (I pray observe it) he 
 cannot by nos, we, mean his own person, (though if he did, he 
 were the more opposite to Rome;) much less can he mean the 
 Roman church, as it is a particular, and stands separate from 
 others: for then how could he say nos esse caput, that we 
 are the head I Therefore he must needs mean the unity and 
 society of the church catholic, which the Novatians had then 
 left, and whereof he and his church were still members. Be- 
 sides, most manifest it is, that he calls that church caput hap- 
 tismatis, the head of baptism, where Novatian was baptized ; 
 (they are his own words ;) and probable it is that was Rome, 
 because that schismatic was a Roman priest. And yet for all 
 this St. Cyprian says, Nos esse caput baptismatis, that we are 
 the head of baptism, though he were at Carthage. By which 
 it is plain, that as ca2mt is parallel to radix and matrix, so 
 also that by caput, the head of baptism, he includes, together 
 with Rome, all the other members of the church universal. 
 Again : St. ^ Cyprian writes to Cornelius and censures the schis- 
 matical carriage of the Novatians at Rome. And tells him 
 further, that he had sent Caldonius and Fortunatus to " labour 
 peace in that church, that so they might be reduced to, and 
 composed in the unity of the catholic church. But because 
 the obstinate and inflexible pertinacy of the other party had 
 not only refused radicis et matris sinum, the bosom of their 
 mother and embracings of their root, but the schism increasing 
 and growing raw to the worse, hath set up a bishop to itself," 
 &c. Where it is observable, and I think plain, that St. Cy- 
 prian employed his legates, not to bring the catholic church to 
 the communion of Rome, but Rome to the catholic church. 
 Or to bring the Novatians not only to communicate with 
 Cornelius, but with the church universal, which was therefore 
 head and root in St. Cyprian s judgment, even to Rome itself, 
 as well as to all other, great, ancient, or even apostolical 
 
 f Elaborarent ut ad catholicae ec- pertinacia non tantuni radicis et matris 
 
 desiw unitatera scissi corporis membra sinum atqne complexum recusavit, sed 
 
 coinpoiiereiit, et Christiaiw charitatis etiam gliscente et in pejus recrudescente 
 
 vinculum copularent. Sed (pioniam discordia, episcopimi sibi c«nstituit, &c. 
 
 diversa* partis ohstiiiata et iuflexibilis S. t'ypr. lib. ii. epist. lo. 
 
 x3 
 
310 Archbishop Laud against 
 
 Sect. 38. churches. And this is yet more plain by the sequel ; for 
 when those his legates had laboured to bi'ing those schismatics 
 to the unity of the catholic church, yet he complains their 
 labour was lost. And why ? Why ! because recusabant radicis 
 et matris sinum, they refused the bosom of the root and the 
 mother. Therefore it must needs be, that in St. Cyprian's 
 sense these two, unitas catholicce ecdesicp, the unity of the 
 catholic church, and radicis, or matricis sinus, or complexus, 
 the bosom, or embracing of the root or the mother, are all 
 one. And then radix and matrix are not words by which ho 
 expresses the Roman see in particular, but he denotes by 
 them the unity of the church catholic. Fourthly, because 
 Tertullian s seems to me to agree in the same sense. For, 
 saith lie, "' these so many and great chiu'ches founded by 
 the apostles, taken all of them together, are that one church 
 from the apostles, out of which are all. So all are first, and 
 all apostolic, while they all allow and prove unam unitaiem, 
 one unity." Nor can any possibly understand this of any par- 
 ticular cliurch, but subordinately. As St. Gregory Nazianzen 
 says the church of Ca?sarea was ^ mater, the mother of almost 
 all cliurches ; which must needs be understood of some neigh- 
 bouring churches, not of the whole catholic church. And 
 where 'Pamelius speaks of original and mother-churches, he 
 names six and others, and Rome in the last place. Therefore 
 certainly no particular church can be the root or matrix of 
 the catholic ; but she is rooted in her own unity, down from 
 the apostles, and nowhere else extra. Demn. And this is fur- 
 ther manifest by the irreligious act of the emperor Adrian. 
 For he, intending to root out the faith of Christ, took this 
 course : he consecrated simulachrum Jovis, the image of 
 Jupiter in the very place where Christ suffered, and profaned 
 Bethlehem with the temple of Adonis: "'Ho this end, that 
 
 S Tdt !iC taiitffi ecdesi;e, una est ilia upon Rheiiaims, jn-iiited ;it Bladriri, 
 
 alt apostulis prima, ex qua oiniies. Sic anno 1584. 
 
 oni!:Cs priiiia^, et omues ajM.'sUilicie, duni h Greg. Nazian. says the duurh of 
 
 ui;am oinnes probant iinitatem. Tertull. Cii^saiea was mater prope omnium er- 
 
 de Pra-sc. advers. U;er. ca)i. 20. — Piutd i-lcsiarnm. Epist. 18. 
 unam esse primain ajKistolicam ; ex i Pamel. in Teitull.ile Pra-s>erij)t. ad- 
 
 qua relinuio. Hauc null! loco a(fii;it vers. Ha-res. rap 2 i . num. 129. 
 15. Klieuamis Aunot. in Arginiiento, k Ut ipiasi radix et i'nndauientum 
 
 Tertull. de Prescript, ike. Nulli loco, ecclesine tolleretiir, si in iis locis idolii 
 
 Therefore not at Rome. But tlie.se colerentur in qniltns Christus natus est, 
 
 ■\\(jrds, Hanc inilli loi'o affigit, dele- &c. S. Paulinus Ejiist. i 1. ad Severum. 
 aiitnr, snys tlie Spanish inquisition 
 
.Fisher the Jesuit. 311 
 
 the root, as it were, and the foundation of the church might Sect. 38. 
 be taken away, if in those places idols might bo worshipped, 
 in which Christ himself was born and suffered," &c. By which 
 it is most evident, that either Jerusalem was the root of the 
 catholic church, if any particular church were so ; or rather, 
 that Adrian was deceived, (as being an heathen he well might,) 
 in that he thought the universal church had any particular or 
 local root of its being ; or that he could destroy it all by 
 laying it waste in any one place whatsoever. And St, Augus- 
 tine, I think, is full for this, that the catholic church must have 
 a catholic root or matrix too. For ' he tells us, " That all 
 heresies whatsoever went out de ilia, out of the catholic 
 church C for da ^Hf^ there can be out of no other. For all 
 heresies did not go out of any one particular church. He 
 goes on : " They were cut off" de vite, from this catholic vine 
 still, as unprofitable branches ; ipsa aiitem, but this catholic 
 church remains in radice sua, in its own root, in its own vine, 
 in its own charity," which must needs be as ample and as 
 catholic as itself. Or else, were it any particular, all heretical 
 branches could not be cut off" from one root." And St. Augus- 
 tine says again, " r"That the Donatists did not consider that 
 they were cut off" from the root of the eastern churches :" 
 Where you see again, it is still but one root of many churches : 
 and that if any man will have a particular root of the catholic 
 church, he must have it in the East, not in the West at 
 Rome. And now lastly, besides this out of St. Cyprian to 
 prove his own meaning, (and sure he is the best interpreter of 
 himself,) and other assisting proofs, it is most evident, that in 
 the prime and principal sense, the catholic church and her 
 unity is the head, root, or matrix of Rome, and all other par- 
 ticular churches ; and not Rome, or any other particular, the 
 head, root, or matrix of it. For there is a double root of the 
 church, as there is of all things else ; that is, radix essentia.', 
 the root, head, or matrix of its essence : and this is the prime 
 sense ; for essence and being is first in all things. And then 
 
 1 Ha'reses oiniies de ilia exierutU '" Pars Donati uon considerat se 
 
 tanquam sanneiita iimtilia de vite pra;- prascisam esse a radice orientaliiim ec- 
 
 cisa : ipsa aiitein manet in radice sua, clesiarum, &c. S. August. E])ist. 170. 
 
 &c. S. .-Vugust. de Synib. ad Catechu- priii. 
 men. lib. i. CHp. rt. 
 
 x4 
 
312 Archhishop Laud against 
 
 Sect. 38. there is radix existential^ the root of its existence and formal 
 being, which always presupposes being, and is therefore a 
 senseless principal. Now to apply this. The catholic or 
 inaiversal church is, and must needs be, the root of essence 
 and being to Eome and all other particulars. And this is the 
 principal root, head, or matrix, that gives being. And Rome, 
 but with all other particular churches, and no more than 
 other patriarchal churches, was and is radix existential, the 
 root of the church's existence. And this agrees with that 
 known and received rule in art ; That universals give essence 
 to their particulars, and particulars supply their universals 
 with existence. For as Socrates and every particular man 
 borrow their essence from the species and definition of a man, 
 which is universal; but this universal nature and being of 
 man hath no actual existence, but in Socrates and all other 
 particular men ; so the church of Rome, and every other par- 
 ticular church in the world, receive their very essence and 
 beiner of a church from the definition of the catholic universal 
 church of Christ : but this universal nature and being of the 
 church hath no actual existence but in Rome and all other 
 particular churches, and equal existence in all her particulars. 
 And should all the particular churches in the world fall away 
 from Christ, save only one, (which God forbid ;) yet the nature, 
 essence, and being of the universal church, would both exist 
 and subsist in that one particular. Out of all which to me 
 most clear it is, tliat for the church's being, the catholic 
 church, and that in unity (for ens et unum, being, and being 
 one, are convertible) is radix, the root, head, matrix, fountain, 
 or original (call it what you will) of Rome and all other par- 
 ticular churches. But Rome is no more than other churches 
 the root or matrix of the catholic church's existence, or place 
 of her actual residence. And this I say for her existence 
 only, not the purity or form of her existence, which is not 
 here considered. But if the catholic she be not, nor the root 
 of the catholic church, yet apostolic I hope she is. Indeed 
 apostolic she is, as being the see " of one, and he a prime 
 
 n Not as Bellarmine would have it, Notis Eccl. lib. iv. cap. 8. §. 1. For by 
 
 with a " Hinc dicitiir apostolica, quia in this reason, neither .lenisalein nor An- 
 
 ea snccessio episcoponini ah apostolis tioch were in their times apostolic 
 
 deducta est usque ad nos." Bellarm. de churches ; because succession of bishops 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 313 
 
 apostle : but then not apostolic, as the church is called in the Sect. 38. 
 Creed, from all the apostles; no, nor the oonly apostolic. 
 Visible, I may not deny, God hath hitherto preserved her, 
 but for a better end, doubtless, than they turn it to ; but in- 
 fallible she was never. Yet if that lady did as the Jesuit in 
 his close avows, or others will rest satisfied with it, who can 
 help it? Sure, none but God. And, by A. C.'s leave, this 
 (which I said is no work for my pen) cannot be learned ; no, 
 not of the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church, much less 
 of the Roman. For though the foundation be one and the 
 same, and sufficiently known by scripture and the Creeds, yet 
 for the building upon the foundation, the adding to it, the 
 detracting from it, the joining other things with it, the grating 
 upon it, each of these may be damnable to some and not to 
 others, according to the knowledge, wisdom, means of infor- 
 mation, which some have and others want; and according to 
 the ignorance, simplicity, and want of information, which some 
 others have and cannot help ; and according to the negli- 
 gence, contempt, wilfulness, and malice, with obstinacy, which 
 some have against the known truth. And all, or some of 
 these, in different degrees, in every particular man ; and that 
 in the whole latitude of mankind, from the most wise and 
 learned in the school of Christ, to the simplest idiot, that hath 
 been so happy as to be initiated into the faith by baptism. 
 Now the church hath not this knowledge of all particulars, 
 men, and conditions ; nor can she apply the conditions to the 
 men, and therefore cannot teach just how far every man must 
 believe, as it relates to the possibility or impossibility of his 
 salvation in every particular. And that which the church 
 
 hath not succeeded in them to tliis day. et reh'qua? ah apostoh's fiir.data>. Tertull. 
 
 De collegis agehatur ijui possent, «S:c. de Pra'scri])t. advers. Ha?ret. cap. 32. 
 
 judicio apostolicannii ecclesianun cau- Perciirre ecclesias apostohcas, &n. 
 
 samsnain integramreservare. S. August. Habes C'orinthum, Phihppos, Thessa- 
 
 Epist.ifi2. — .lo. deTurrecreni.enumerat lonicenses, Ephesuin, Romam. lUid.cap. 
 
 sex verhi hr.jussigniticationes. Quarum 32. — Et Pamelins enumerat Hieroso- 
 
 prima est: Apostohca dicitur quia in lymitanam, Ant'ochenam, C'orintliiiim, 
 
 apostohs, 6ic. initiata est. Hos enim in- Phih]i])eiisem, Ej)hesinani, Eonianam. 
 
 stituit quasi fuiidamentum ecclesiae, &c. Panieh iliid. cap. 21. num. 129. And it 
 
 Jo. de Turrecrem. Sumnue lil). i. cap. may he olfserved, tliat so long ago Ter- 
 
 i8. Et quia originem sumpsit ah apo- tuUian, and so lately Pamehus, should 
 
 stolis, &c. Ibid. Uhi dicit etiam S. reckon Rome last. Quin et aUw ec- 
 
 patres apposuisse hanc vocem aposto- clesiie qua^ al> his a])ost<ilicw etiam depu- 
 
 licam in symholo suo, suj)i"i symholum tantur, ut solioles ecdesiarum a]>osti - 
 
 apostolonim. Ibid. licarum, &:c. Tertull. ii)id. cap. 20. 
 o Ecclesi* apostolicae, utSmyrnajorum. 
 
314 Archhhhoj) Laud against 
 
 Sect 38, 39. cannot teach, men cannot learn of her. She can teach the 
 foundation, and men were happy if they would learn it, and 
 the church more happy would she teach nothing but that as 
 necessary to salvation ; for certainly, nothing but that is 
 necessary. Now then, whereas, after all this, the Jesuit tells 
 us, that, 
 
 Jp. Upon this and the precedent conferences, the lady 
 rested in judgment fully satisfied (as she told a confi- 
 dent friend) of the truth of the Roman church's faith : 
 yet, upon frailty, and fear to offend the king, she yielded 
 to go to church ; for which she was after very sorry, as 
 some of her friends can testify. 
 Sect. 39. 53. I. — This is all personal. And how that honourable lady 
 was then settled in conscience, how in judgment, I know not. 
 This, I think, is made clear enough, that that which you said 
 in this and the precedent conferences could settle neither, 
 unless in some that were settled or settling before. As little 
 do I know what she told any confident friend of her approv- 
 A. C.p. 73.ing the Roman cause; no more whether it were frailty or 
 fear, or other motive, that made her yield to go to church; 
 nor how sorry she was for it, nor who can testify that sorrow. 
 This I am sure of, if she repent, and God forgive her other 
 sins, she will more easily be able to answer for her coming to 
 church, than for her leaving of the church of England, and 
 following the superstitions and errors which the Roman church 
 hath added in point of faith and the worship of God. For 
 the lady was then living when I answered thus. 
 
 II. — Now whereas I said, the lady would fiir more easily 
 be able to answer for her coming to church than for her leav- 
 A. C. p. 73. ing the church of England ; to this A. C. excepts, and says, 
 " That I neither prove nor can prove, that it is lawful for one 
 (persuaded especially as the lady was) to go to the protestant 
 church. '■' There is a great deal of cunning and as much 
 malice in this passage, but I shall easily pluck the sting out of 
 the tail of this wasp. And first, I have proved it already 
 through this whole discourse, and therefore can prove it, that 
 the church of England is an orthodox church ; and therefore 
 with the same labour it is proved, that men may lawfully go 
 unto it and communicate with it ; for so a man not only may 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 315 
 
 but oudit to do with an orthodox church. And a Romanist Sect. 39. 
 may communicate with the church of England without any 
 oflfenco in the nature of the thing thereby incurred. But if 
 his conscience through misinformation check it, he should do 
 well in that case rather to inform his conscience than forsake 
 any orthodox church whatsoever. Secondly, A. 0. tells me 
 plainly, '' That I cannot prove that a man so persuaded as 
 the lady was may go to the protestant church ;" that is, that 
 a Roman catholic may not go to the protestant church. Why, 
 I never went about to prove that a Roman catholic, being and 
 continuing such, might, against his conscience, go to the pro- 
 testant church. For these words, " a man persuaded as the 
 lady is," are A. O.'s words, they are not mine. Mine are not 
 simply that the lady might, or that she might not ; but com- 
 parative tliey are, that she might more easily answer to God 
 for coming to than for going from the church of England. 
 And that is every way most true. For in this doubtful time 
 of hers, when, upon my reasons given, she went again to 
 church ; when yet soon after (as you say, at least) she was 
 sorry for it ; I say, at this time she was in heart and re- 
 solution a Roman catholic, or she was not : if she w^ere not, 
 (as it seems by her doubting she was not then fully resolved,) 
 then my speech is most true, that she might more easily 
 answer to God for coming to service in the church of England 
 than for leaving it ; for a protestant she had been, and for 
 audit I knew, at the end of this conference so she was ; and 
 then it was no sin in itself to come to an orthodox church ; 
 nor no sin against her conscience, she continuing a protestant, 
 for auglit whicli then appeared to me. But if she then were 
 a Roman catholic, (as the Jesuit and A. 0. seem confident she 
 was,) yet my speech is true too. For then she might more 
 easily ansvver to God for coming to the church of England, 
 whicli is orthodox, and leaving the church of Rome, which is 
 superstitious, than by leaving the church of England, commu- 
 nicate with all the superstitions of Rome. Now the cunning 
 and the malignity of A. C. lies in this : ho would fain have 
 the world think that I am so indifferent in religion as that I 
 did maintain, the lady, being conscientiously persuaded of the 
 truth of the Romish doctrine, might yet, against both her 
 
316 Archbishop Laud against 
 
 Sect. 39. conscience and against open and avowed profession, come to 
 the protestant church. 
 
 III. — Nevertheless, in hope his cunning maHce would not 
 be discovered, against this (his own sense that is, and not mine) 
 he brings divers reasons. As first, it is not lawful for one 
 affected as that lady was ; that is, for one that is resolved 
 of the truth of the Roman church, to go to the church of 
 England, there and in that manner to serve and worship 
 A. C. p. 73. God ; " because," saith A. C, "that were to halt on both 
 sides, to serve two masters, and to dissemble with God and 
 the world." Truly, I say the same thing with him, and that 
 therefore neither may a protestant, that is resolved in con- 
 science that the profession of the true faith is in the church of 
 England, go to the Romish church, there and in that manner 
 to serve and worship God. Neither need I give other answer, 
 because A.C. urges this against his own fiction, not my asser- 
 tion. Yet since he will so do, I shall give a particular 
 answer to each of them. And to this first reason of his I 
 say thus, That to believe religion after one sort and to prac- 
 tise it after another, and that in the main points of worship, 
 the sacrament and invocation, is to halt on both sides, to serve 
 two masters, and to dissemble with God and the world. And 
 other than this I never taught, nor ever said that which 
 might infer the contrary. But, A. C, give me leave to tell 
 you, your fellow Jesuit P Azorius affirms this in express 
 terms ; and what do you think, can he prove it ? Nay, not 
 Azorius only, but other priests and Jesuits here in England, 
 either teach some of their proselytes, or else some of them 
 learn it without teaching, that though they be persuaded 
 as this lady was, that is, though they be Roman catholics, yet 
 
 P Quinto qiin>ritur, An ul)i cathiilici tholicis facere : (|uia prfestant solum 
 
 una cum luereticis versatiUu', licitum sit ohedientiae offici>nn. Sin jubeat, >it eo 
 
 catliolii'o ailire tem])la ad qua" hftretici symbolo simnl leligionem ha^reticam 
 
 conveuiunt, eorum interesse conventi- profiteantur, parere non delient. Qu;h- 
 
 bns, &c. Respondeo : Si rei naturam i-es iterum, An liceat catholico ol)edire, 
 
 spectemus, non est per se malum, sed modo puhlice asseverat se id efficere, so- 
 
 sua natura indifFerens, &c. ]!^t postea : lum ut principi suo oljediat, non ut 
 
 Si princeps li<f resi laboret, et jubeat sectam hwreticam profiteatur ? Re- 
 
 subditos catholicos sub poena mortis, vel spondeo : Quidam id licere arbitrantur, 
 
 contiscationis bonornm frei|uentare tem- ne bona ejus publicentnr, vel vita eri- 
 
 pla hwreticoruni, quid turn i'aciendnni ? ])iatur. Quod sane probaltiliter diri vi, 
 
 Respondeo: Si jubeat tantum, ut omnes detur. Azorius Instit. iMoral. p. i. lib. 
 
 mandate suo obediant, licitum est ca- viii. c. 27. p. 1299. edit. Paris. 1616. 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 317 
 
 either to gain honour or save their purse, they may go to the Sect. 39. 
 protestant church, just as the Jesuit here says " the lady did 
 out of frailty and fear to offend the king." Therefore I pray 
 A. C, if this be gross dissimulation both with God and the 
 world, speak to your fellows to leave persuading or practising 
 of it, and leave men in the profession of religion to be as they 
 seem, or to seem and appear as they are; let us have no 
 mask worn here. A. C's second reason why one so persuaded 
 as that lady was might not go to the protestant church is, A. C. p. 73. 
 " Because that were outwardly to profess a religion in con- 
 science known to be false." To this I answer, first, that if 
 this reason be true, it concerns all men, as well as those that 
 be persuaded as the lady was ; for no man may outwardly 
 profess a religion in conscience known to be false ; for with 
 the lieart man lelieveth to righteousness., and with the mouth he 
 confesseth to salvation'^. Now to his own salvation no man can 
 confess a known false religion. Secondly, if the religion of 
 the protestants be in conscience a known false religion, then 
 the Romanists"' religion is so too, for their religion is the same : 
 nor do the church of Rome and the protestants set up a dif- 
 ferent religion, (for the Christian religion is the same to both,) 
 but they differ in the same religion : and the difference is in 
 certain gross corruptions, to the very endangering of salva- 
 tion : which each side says the other is guilty of. Thirdly, the 
 reason given is most untrue ; for it may appear by all the 
 former discoui'se to any indifferent reader, that religion, as it 
 is professed in the church of England, is nearest of any church 
 now in being to the primitive church ; and therefore not a 
 religion known to be false. And this I both do and can 
 prove, were not the deafness of this asp"" upon the ears of 
 seduced Christians in all human and divided parties whatso- 
 ever, 
 
 IV. — After these reasons thus given by him, A. C. tells a. C. p. 73. 
 me, " That I neither do nor can prove any superstition or 
 error to be in the Roman » religion." What, none at all I 
 Now truly, I would to God from my heart this were true, 
 and that the church of Rome were so happy, and the whole 
 catholic church thereby blessed with truth and peace : for I 
 
 <1 Rom. X. 10. >" Psal. Iviii. 4. Roman persuasion, as some understand- 
 
 s I would A. C would call it the ing Romanists do. 
 
318 Archbishop Laud against 
 
 Sect. 39. am confident such truth as that would soon either command 
 
 peace or ' confound poacebreakers. But is there no supei'- 
 
 stition in adoration of images ? none in invocation of saints ? 
 
 none in adoration of the sacrament I Is there no error in 
 
 breaking Christ's own institution of the sacrament, by giving 
 
 it but in one kind? none about purgatory? about common 
 
 prayer in an unknown tongue, none I These and many more 
 
 are in the Roman rehgion, (if you will needs call it so.) And 
 
 it is no hard work to prove every of these to be error or 
 
 superstition, or both. Ijut if A. 0. think so meanly of me, 
 
 that though this be no hard work in itself, yet that I (such 
 
 is my weakness) cannot prove it, I shall leave him to enjoy 
 
 that opinion of me, or whatever else he shall be pleased to 
 
 entertain ; and am far better content with his opinion of my 
 
 A. C. p. 73. weakness, than with that which follows of my pride : for he 
 
 adds, " That T cannot prove any error or superstition to be 
 
 in the Roman religion, but by presuming with intolerable 
 
 I pride to make myself or some of my fellows to be judge of 
 
 \ controversies ; and by taking authority to censure all to be 
 
 I superstition and error too, which suits not with my fancy, 
 
 \ although it be generally held or practised by the universal 
 
 1 church ; which," saith he, " in St. Augustine's judgment, 
 
 I is most insolent madness." What ! not prove any supersti- 
 
 \ tion, any error at Rome but by pride, and that intolerable ! 
 
 I Truly, I would to God A. C. saw my heart, and all the 
 
 \ pride that lodges therein. But wherein doth this pride 
 
 I appear, that he censures me so deeply ? Why first, in this ; 
 
 \ that " I cannot prove any error or superstition to be in 
 
 the Roman religion, unless I make myself or some of my 
 
 \ fellows judge of controversies." Indeed, if I took this upon 
 
 me, I were guilty of great pride : but A. 0. knows well that 
 
 before in this conference, which he undertakes to answer, I 
 
 am so far from making myself or any of my fellows judge of 
 
 controversies, that "I absolutely make a lawful and free 
 
 general council judge of controversies, by and according to 
 
 t For though I spare their names, gory Nazianzen's opinion I am. Oure 
 
 yet can I not agree in jndginent with fipr^vevonei', &c. Non studeniiis paci in 
 
 iiim that says in print, " God he praised detriinentum vera; doctriiia' lit faci- 
 
 for the disagreement in rehgion ;" nor htatis et niansuetndinis famam colh'ga- 
 
 in devotion with liini that prayed in nnis. — Et rursum : Pacem coHmus legi- 
 
 the pulpit, " Tiiat God \vonld tear the time pugnantes, &c. Orat. 32. 
 
 rent of rehgion wider :" hut of St. Gre- u Sect. 3S- '^ect. 26. num. 1. XF. 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 319 
 
 the scriptures. And this I learned from ''St. Augustine, with Sect. 39. 
 this, " That ever the scripture is to have the prerogative above 
 the council.''"' Nay, A. C. should remember here that xhe 
 himself taxes me for giving too much power to a general coun- 
 cil, and binding men to a strict obedience to it, even in case 
 of error ; and therefore sure most innocent I am of the most 
 intolerable pride which he is pleased to charge upon me : 
 and he of all men most unfit to charge it. Secondly, A. C. A. C. p. 73- 
 will have my pride appear in this, that I take authority to 
 censure all for error and superstition which suits not with 
 my own fancy. But how can this possibly be, since I submit 
 my judgment in all humility to the scripture, interpreted by 
 the primitive church, and upon new and necessary doubts 
 to the judgment of a lawful and free general council I And 
 this I do from my very heart, and do abhor in matters of 
 religion that my own or any private man's fancy should take 
 any place ; and least of all against things generally held or 
 practised by the universal church ; which to oppose in such 
 things is certainly (as ^St. Augustine calls it) insolentissimcB 
 insaniw^ an attempt of most insolent madness. But those 
 things which the church of England charges upon the Roman 
 party to be superstitious and erroneous, are not held or prac- 
 tised in or by the universal church generally, either for time 
 or place. And now I would have A. C. consider, how justly 
 all this may be turned upon himself : for he hath nothing to 
 pretend, that there are not gross superstitions and errors in 
 the Roman persuasion ; unless by intolerable pride he wdll 
 make himself and his party judge of controversies, (as in effect 
 he doth ; for he will be judged by none but the pope, and a 
 council of his ordering ;) or unless he will take authority to 
 free from superstition and error whatsoever suits with his 
 fancy, though it be even superstition itself, and run cross to 
 what hath been generally held in the catholic church of 
 Christ ; yea, though to do so be, in St. Augustine's judgment, 
 most insolent madness. And A. C. spake in this most pro- 
 perly, when he called it takinp of aviliorlty : for the bishop 
 and church of Rome have, in this particular of judging con- 
 troversies, indeed taken that authority to themselves, which 
 
 X Pra?ponitur scriptara, &c. S. An- y Sect. 32. num. V. A. C. p. 63. 
 gust, de Bapt. coat. Donat. lib. ii. c. 3. ''■ S. August. Epist. 118. c. 5. 
 
320 Archbishop Lcmd against 
 
 Sect. 39. neither Christ nor his church cathoHc did ever give them. 
 Here the conference ended with this conchision. 
 
 V. — And as I hope God hath given that lady mercy, so' I 
 heartily pray that he v^ill be pleased to give all of you a light 
 of his truth, and a love to it, that you may no longer be 
 made instruments of the pope's boundless ambition, and this 
 most vmchristian ^ brain-sick device, that in all controversies 
 of the faith he is infallible, and that by way of inspiration 
 and prophecy, in the conchision which he gives. To the 
 due consideration of which, and God's mercy in Christ, I 
 leave you. 
 
 VI. — To this conclusion of the conference between me and 
 the Jesuit, A. C. says not much ; but that which he doth 
 say is either the selfsame which he hath said already, or 
 else is quite mistaken in the business. That which he hath 
 
 A. C. p. 73. said already is this; " That in matters of faith, we are to 
 submit our judgments to such doctors and pastors, as by 
 visible, continual succession without change brought the faith 
 down from Christ and his apostles to these our days, and 
 shall so carry it to the end of the world ; and that this suc- 
 cession is not found in any other church differing in doctrine 
 from the Koman church." Now to this I have given a full 
 answer t) already, and therefore will not trouble the reader 
 with needless and troublesome repetition. Then he brings 
 certain places of scripture to prove the pope's infallibility : 
 but to all these places I have likewise answered '^before ; and 
 therefore A. C. needed not to repeat them again, as if they 
 had been unanswerable. 
 
 VII. — One place of scripture only A. 0. had not urged 
 before, either for proof of this continued visible succession, 
 
 A. C. p. 73. or for the pope's infallibility: nor doth A. C. distinctly set 
 down by which of the two lie will prove it. The place is^ — 
 Christ ascending gave some to he apostles ; some, prophets ; some^ 
 evangelists ; some, pastors and teachers, &c. for the edification of 
 the church. Now if he do mean to prove the pope's infalli- 
 bility by this place in his pastoral judgment, truly I do not 
 see how this can possibly be collected thence: ^Christ gave 
 
 a Sect. 33. nnm. VI. d Ephes. iv. ii. 
 
 t> Sect. 37. nuni III, IV. e Pontiticatus summus diserte positus 
 
 c Sect. 15. num. V. est ab apostolo in illis verbis, Ephes. iv. 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 321 
 
 some to be apostles for the edification of his church : therefore Sect. 39. 
 St. Peter and all his successors are infallible in their pastoral 
 judgment ; and if he mean to prove the continued visible suc- 
 cession, which he saith is to be found in no church but the 
 Roman, there is a Httle more show, but to no more purpose. 
 A little more show : because it is added, ^ verse 13, that the 
 apostles and prophets, &c. shall continue at their work (and 
 that must needs be by .succession) till we all meet in unity 
 and perfection of Christ : but to no purpose ; for it is not 
 said that they or their successors should continue at this 
 work in a personal uninterrupted succession in any one par- 
 ticular church, Roman or other. Nor ever will A. C. be able 
 to prove that such a succession is necessary in any one par- 
 ticular place ; and if he could, yet his own words tell us the a. C. p. 73. 
 personal succession is nothing, " if the faith be not brought 
 down without change from Christ and his apostles to this 
 day, and so to the end of the world." Now here is a piece of 
 cunning too, the faith brought down unchanged ; for if A. C. 
 mean by the faith the Creed, and that in letter, it is true 
 the church of Rome hath received and brought down the 
 faith unchanged from Christ and his apostles to these our 
 days. But then it is apparently false that no church differing 
 from the Roman in doctrine hath kept that faith unchanged, 
 and that by a visible and continued succession: for the 
 Greek church differs from the Roman in doctrine, and yet 
 hath so kept that faith unchanged. But if he mean by the 
 faith unchanged, and yet brought down in a continual visible 
 succession, not only the Creed in letter, but in sense too ; 
 and not that only, but all the doctrinal points about the faith 
 w hich have been determined in all such councils, as the pre- 
 
 •11. et in illis clarioribus, I Cor. xii. 28. iannine would salve it up with this, 
 
 Ipse posuit iu ecclesia primiun aposto- that this power is given Petro, ut ordi- 
 
 los, &c. Bellarm. de Rom. Pont. lib. i. nario pastori cui succederetur, aliis veio 
 
 c. I. §. Respondeo pontilicatum. And tanquam delegatis, quilms non succe- 
 
 he gives an excellent reason for it : Si- deretur. Ibid. But this is mere beg- 
 
 quidem summa potestas ecclesiastica ging of the question, and will never be 
 
 non solum data est Petro, sed etiam granted unto him: and in the mean 
 
 aliis apostohs. Ibid. So belike by this time we have his absolute confession 
 
 reason the apostle dotli clearly express for the other, That the supreme eccle- 
 
 the popedom, because all the rest of siastical power was not in St. Peter 
 
 the apostles had as much ecclesiastical alone, but in all the apostles, 
 power as St. Peter had. But then Bel- <' Ephes. iv. 13. 
 
822 Archhishop Laud against 
 
 Sect. 39. sent church of Rome allows, (Sas most certainly he doth so 
 mean, and it is the controversy between us ;) then it is most 
 certain and most apparent to any understanding man that 
 reads antiquity with an impartial eye, that a visible continua 
 succession of doctors and pastors have not brought down the 
 faith in this sense from Christ and his apostles to these days 
 of ours in the Roman church. And that I might not be 
 thought to say and not to prove, I give instance. And with 
 this, that if A. 0. or any Jesuit can prove, that by a visible 
 continued succession from Christ and his apostles to this day, 
 either transubstantiation in the eucharist, or the eucharist 
 in one kind, or purgatory, or worship of images, or the inten- 
 tion of the priest of necessity in baptism, or the power of the 
 pope over a general council, or his infallibility with or without 
 it, or his power to depose princes, or the public prayers of 
 the church in an unknown tongue, with divers other points 
 have been so taught, I for my part will give the cause. 
 Besides, for succession in the general I shall say this ; it is a 
 great happiness where it may be had visible and continued, 
 and a great conquest over the mutability of this present 
 world. But I do not find any one of the ancient Fathers 
 that makes local, personal, visible, and continued succession, 
 a necessary sign or mark of the true church in any one place. 
 And where ^Vincentius Lirinensis calls for antiquity, univer- 
 sality, and consent, as great notes of truth, he hath not one 
 word of succession. And for that great place in 'Irenseus, 
 where that ancient Father reckons the succession of the 
 bishops of Rome to Elcutherius, (who sat in his time,) and 
 saith, " That this is a most full and ample proof or ostension, 
 mvificatricem Jidem, that the living and life-giving faith is from 
 the apostles to this day conserved and delivered in truth ;" 
 and of which place kBellarmine boasts so much. Most mani- 
 
 g And so also Bellaiinine, Sexta nota esse, quae in ecclesia ab apostoHs usque 
 
 est conspiiatio in doctrina cum ecclesia nunc sit consei-vata, et tradita in veri- 
 
 antiqua. De Notis Eccles. lib. iv. c. 9. tate. Iren. advers. Hser. lib. iii. c. 3. 
 s j^ •< Per banc successionem confundi 
 
 h Vin. Lirin. cont. Hjer. c. 4. onines hareticos. Bellarm. de Notis 
 
 • Hac ordinatione et successione ea Eccles. lib. iv. c. 8. §. i. There is no 
 
 qua; est ab apostolis in ecclesia traditio, such word found in Irenanis as per 
 
 et veritatis pra?coniatio pervenit usque hanc successionem, or hac successione, 
 
 ad nos. Et est plenissima haec ostensio, in the church of Rome only, which is 
 
 unam et eandem vivificatricem fideni Bellarmine's sense: but by succession 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 323 
 
 fest it is in the very same place, that " 'Ii-ciifeus stood as Sect. 39. 
 much upon the succession of the churches then in Asia, and 
 of Smyrna (though that no prime apostohcal church) where 
 Polycarpus sat bishop, as of the succession at Rome ;" by 
 which it is most manifest that it is not personal succession 
 only, and that tied to one place, that the Fathers meant, but 
 they taught that the faith was delivered over by succession 
 in some places or other still to their present time; and so 
 doubtless shall be, till time be no more. I say, the faith; 
 but not every opinion, true or false, that in ti'act of time 
 shall cleave to the faith. And to the faith itself, and all its 
 fundamentals, we can shew as good and full a succession as 
 you ; and we pretend no otherwise to it than you do, save 
 that we take in the Greeks, which you do not. Only we 
 reject your gross superstitions, to which you can shew no 
 succession from the apostles, either at Rome or elsewhere, 
 much less any one uninterrupted. And therefore he nn'ght 
 have held his peace that says, " It is evident that the Roman 
 catholic church only hath had a constant and uninterrupted 
 succession of pastors, and doctors, and tradition of doctrine 
 from age to age." For most evident it is, that the tradition 
 of doctrine hath received both addition and alteration since 
 the first five hundred years, in which m]Jollarmine confesses and 
 bishop Jewel maintains the church's doctrine was apostolical. 
 VIII. — And once more before I leave this point. Most evi- 
 dent it is that the succession which the Fathers meant is not 
 tied to place or person, but it is tied to the verity of doctrine : 
 for so nTertullian expressly; "Beside the order of bishops 
 running down (in succession) from the beginning, there is re- 
 quired comanfjuinitas doctrina;, that the doctrine be allied in 
 
 in general in other churches, as well as Ecclesia antem illic crat, ubi fides vera 
 
 in Rome. erat. S. Ilieron. in Psal. cxxxiii. 
 
 1 Testimonium his perhihent qua? m Antiqua ecclesia priniis tiuiugentis 
 
 sunt in Asi* ecclesiie oinnes, et qui anuis vera ecclesia fuit, et proiiule apo- 
 
 usque adhuc successeruiU Polycarpo. stolicani doctrinam retinuit. Hcllai-in. 
 
 Iren. advers. Ha-res. lil). iii. c. 3 — Con- de Notis Eccles. Ill), iv. c. 9. §. i. 
 
 Stat omnem doctrinam qua> cum illis n Ad banc foniiam jtrovoi^ahuiitur 
 
 ecclesiis apostolicis, matricibus, orign- ab illis ecclesiis, qua; licet nullum ex 
 
 nalibus fidei conspiret, vei-itati dcpu- apostolis, vel apostolicis authoreui suuni 
 
 tandam. Tertull. de Praiscript. advers. proferunt, ut multo posteriores qua? de- 
 
 Ilaeretic. c. 21. — Ecclesiw jjosteriores niipu- iniotitlie instituuntiir, tamen in 
 
 non minus a])ostolic;e deputantur pro eadein fide consjiirantes, iiou minus 
 
 c^usanguinitate docti-ina-. Ibid. c. 32 apostolicin deputantur pro consanguini- 
 
 Ecclesia non in parietihus consistit, &c. tated((ctrin;»'. Tertull.de Pra^scrijiLc. 32. 
 
 V 2 
 
324 Archbishop Laud against 
 
 Sect. 39. blood to that of Christ and his apostles." So that if the 
 doctrine be no kin to Christ, all the succession become 
 strangers, what nearness soever they pretend. And "Irena^us 
 speaks plainer than he ; " We are to obey those presbyters 
 which, together with the succession of their bishoprics, have 
 received charisma verifatis, the gift of truth." Now Stapleton, 
 being pressed hard with these two authorities, first P confesses 
 expressly, " That succession, as it is a note of the true 
 church, is neither a succession in place only, nor person only, 
 but it must be of true and sound doctrine also :" and had 
 he stayed here, no man could have said better ; but then he 
 saw well he must quit his great note of the church-succes- 
 sion ; that he durst not do : therefore he begins to cast about 
 how he may answer these Fathers, and yet maintain suc- 
 cession. Secondly, therefore, he tells us, that that which 
 these Fathers say do nothing weaken succession, but that it 
 shall still be a main note of the true church, and in that 
 sense which he would have it; and his reason is, "q Because 
 sound doctrine is indivisible from true and lawful succes- 
 sion :" where you shall see this great clerk (for so he was) 
 not able to stand to himself when he hath forsaken truth : for 
 it is not long after that he tells us that the people are led 
 along, and judge the doctrine by the pastors ; but when the 
 church comes to examine, she judges the pastors by their 
 doctrine; and this ^he says is necessary, "because a man 
 may become of a pastor, a wolf." Now then let Stapleton 
 take his choice ; for either a pastor in this succession cannot 
 become a wolf, and then this proposition is false ; or else if 
 he can, then sound doctrine is not inseparable from true and 
 legitimate succession : and then the former proposition is 
 false, as indeed it is. For that a good pastor may become a 
 wolf, is no news in the ancient story of the church, in which 
 are registered the change of many ''great men into heretics : 
 I spare their names: and since ^ Judas changed from an 
 
 o Illis presbyteris obediendum est, 1 Quia doctrina sana est ab ipsa vera 
 
 qui cmii episcopatus successione cha- et legitima snccessioiie indivulsa. Staph 
 
 risma acceperiint veritatis. Iran. lib. iv. ibid, 
 cap. 43. '■ Nam e pastore lupus fieri i>otest. 
 
 p Successio nee locorum tautuju est, Stap. ibid, notab. 4. 
 nee personarum, sed etiani verse et s Vincent. Lir. cont. Haer. c. 33, 24. 
 sanse doctrinae. Staph Relect. Coutro- ' John vi. 70. 
 vers. I. q. 4. A. 2. notab. i. 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 325 
 
 apostle to a devil, it is no wonder to see others change from Sect. 39. 
 shepherds into wolves. I doubt the church is not empty of 
 such changelings at this day. Yea, but Stapleton will help 
 all this ; for he adds, " That suppose the pastors do forsake 
 true doctrine, yet succession shall still be a true note of the 
 church ; yet not every succession, but that which is legitimate 
 and true." Well; and what is that? Why, ""That suc- 
 cession is lawful which is of those pastors which hold entire 
 the unity and the faith." Where you may see this Sampson s 
 hair cut off again ; for at his word I will take him. And if 
 that only be a legitimate succession which holds the unity 
 and the faith entire, then the succession of pastors in the 
 Roman church is illegitimate ; for they have had xmore 
 schisms among them than any other church ; therefore they 
 have not kept the unity of the church. And they have 
 brought in gross superstition ; therefore they have not kept 
 the faith entire. Now if A. 0. have any mind to it, he may 
 do well to help Stapleton out of these briers, upon which 
 he hath torn his creed, and, I doubt, his conscience too, to 
 uphold the corruptions of the see of Rome. 
 
 IX. — As for that in which he is quite mistaken, it is his 
 inference, which is this, " That I should therefore consider \ 
 carefully whether it be not more Christian and less brain- I 
 sick to think that the pope, being St. Peter's successor, with \ 
 a general council, should be judge of controversies, &c. ; and | 
 that the pastoral judgment of him should be accounted infal- | 
 lible, rather than to make every man that can read the scrip- | 
 ture interpreter of scripture, decider of controversies, con- ( 
 troUer of general councils, and judge of his judges ; or to have \ 
 no judge at all of controversies of faith, but permit every 
 man to believe as he list, as if there were no infallible cer- 
 tainty of faith to be expected on earth ; which were, instead | 
 of one saving faith, to induce a Babylonical confusion of so | 
 many faiths as fancies, or no true Christian faith at all ; from 
 which evils, sweet Jesus, deliver us !" I have considered of 
 these vei7 carefully ; but this inference supposes that whiclv 
 I never granted, nor any protestant that I yet know, namely^ 
 
 w Legitima autem est illorutii pasto- ->: In their own iliroiiologer Onu, 
 rum, qui unitatem tenent et fidem. phrius, there are thirty ackno\vledge<J. 
 Stapl. ibid, notab. 5. 
 
 Y3 
 
 \ 
 
326 Archbishop Laud against 
 
 Sect. 39. that if I deny the pope to be judge of controversies, I must 
 by and by either leave this supreme judicature in the hands 
 and power of every private man that can but read the scrip- 
 ture, or else allow no judge at all, and so let in all manner of 
 confusion. No, God forbid that I should grant either ; for I 
 have expressly y declared, that the scripture interpreted by 
 the primitive church, and a lawful and free general council, 
 determining according to these, is judge of controversies ; and 
 that no private man whatsoever is or can bo judge of these. 
 Therefore A. C. is quite mistaken, (and I pray God it be not 
 wilfully, to beguile poor ladies, and other their weak ad- 
 herents, with seeming to say somewhat,) I say quite mis- 
 taken, to infer that I am either for a private judge, or for no 
 judge ; for I utterly disclaim both, and that as much, if not 
 more than he, or any Ivomanist, whoever he be. But these 
 things in this passage I cannot swallow : first, that the pope, 
 with a general council, should bo judge ; for the pope in 
 ancient councils never had more power than any of the other 
 patriarchs : precedency, perhaps for order's sake, and other 
 respects, he had. Nor had the pope any negative voice against 
 the rest in point of difference ; ^no, nor was he held superior 
 to the council : therefore the ancient church never accounted 
 or admitted him a judge; no, not with a council, much less 
 witliout it. Secondly, it will not down with me that his pas- 
 toral judgment should be infallible, especially since some of 
 them have been as ^ignorant as many that can but read the 
 scripture. Thirdly, I cannot admit this neither, (though he 
 do most cunningly thereby abuse his readers,) that any thing 
 hath been said by me out of which it can justly be inferred 
 that there is no infallible certainty of faith to be expected on 
 
 y Sect. 26. num. I. Romee (at fama est) qui sacras literas 
 
 z Pittrum et avorum nostronun tern- ilidicerit, qua tVonte aliijuis eoruui do- 
 
 l.ore, j.auci auileliant direre, Papam esse cere audeliit, quod nou didiceiit ? Ar- 
 
 supra conciliiun. yEueas Sylvius, seu iiulj)!!. in C'oncil. Khcniensi.— Nam cum 
 
 Puis II. de (iestis Coucil. Uasil. lib. i. con.stetplures eonmi adeo illiterates esse, 
 
 Kt illud imprimis cupio notum, (juia ut tjraminaticam peuitus igiiorarent, qui 
 
 Romanum i)apam, omues (pii a]i<iuo lut- sit ut sacras literas iuterjiretari possint ? 
 
 mero .sunt, coiicilio suhjiciuut. Ihid. in Ali)lions. a C^astro advers. ILvres. lib. i. 
 
 fascic. rerum Expetend. fol. 5 — Nunc c. 4. versus medium, edit. Paris. 1534. 
 
 autem, Pai)am esse non solum supra (for both tliat at AntMerp, an. 1^56, 
 
 concilium jrencrale, sed et universam and that at Paris, an. 1571, have been 
 
 ccclesiam, est i>ropositio fere de tide, in puri^atorv.) And such an ignorant 
 
 Uellarm. de Coucil. lib. ii. c. 17. §. i. as these was' pope John XXIV. Platina, 
 
 a Quum hoc tempore nullus sit in Vita ejus ; et Sect. 33. num. VI. 
 
Fisher the Jesuit. 327 
 
 earth ; for there is most infalHble certainty of it, that is, of Sect. 39. 
 the foundations of it, in scripture and the creeds ; and it is 
 so clearly dehvered there, as that it needs no judge at all to 
 sit upon it for the articles themselves. And so entire a body 
 is this one faith in itself, as that the i^ whole church (much 
 less the pope) hath not power to add one article to it, nor 
 leave to detract any one the least from it. But when contro- 
 versies arise about the meaning of the articles, or superstruc- 
 tures upon them, which arc doctrines about the faith, not the 
 faith itself, (unless where they be immediate consequences,) 
 then both in and of these a ^ lawful and free general council, 
 determining according to scripture, is the best judge on 
 earth. But then suppose uncertainty in some of these super- 
 structures, it can never be thence concluded that there is no 
 infallible certainty of the faith itself But it is time to end, 
 especially for me, that have so many things of weight lying 
 upon me, and disabling me from these polemic discourses, 
 beside the burden of sixty-five years complete, which draws 
 on apace to the period set by the prophet ^ David, and to the 
 time that I must go and give God and Christ an account of 
 the talent committed to my charge : in which God, for Christ 
 Jesus' sake, be merciful to me ; who knows that, however in 
 many weaknesses, yet I have with a faithful and single heart 
 (bound to his free grace for it) laboured the meeting, the 
 blessed meeting of e truth and peace in his church ; and which 
 God, in his own good time, will (I hope) effect. To him be 
 all honour and praise for ever. Amen. 
 
 ■> Resolutio Occhaini est, Quod nee fidei tollere. Qiioiiiam sicut veritates 
 
 tota ecdesia, iiec concilium generale, nee catholiciv" al)sqiie oinni approbatione ec- 
 
 summus pontifex potest facere articii- clesi;B ex natnra rei sunt immutal)ilcs, 
 
 lum, quod non fuit articulus. Sed ec- et imnuitat)iliter, verse, ita sunt immu- 
 
 clesia bene deterniinat de proposition!- tabiliter catliolicaj reputand.-e. Similiter 
 
 buscatholicis, deijuibuserat dubium,&c. (iicut haereses absque omni reprobatione 
 
 Ja. Almain. in 3. Sent. D. 25. q. unica. et damnatione sunt fals*, ita absque 
 
 Dub. 3 — Sicut ad ea quje s])ectant ad omni reprobatione sunt hiereses repu- 
 
 lideni nostram, et netpiaquam ex volun- tand;e, &c Et jiostea : I'atet ergo (|uod 
 
 tate humana dependent, non ])otest nulla Veritas est catbolii'a ex ap])roba- 
 
 suinmus ])ontil"ex, nee ecclesia de asser- tioiie ecclesiai vel jiajni;. (tab. IJiel. in 3. 
 
 tione nou vera, verain, nee de non falsa Sent. Dist. 25. q. unica. Art. 3. Dub. 3, 
 
 falsam faeere, ita non potest de non ca- versus fineni. 
 
 tliolica catholicaiu facere, nee de non c Sect. 26. num. I. 
 
 hwretica ha;reticam. Et lileo non potest <1 Psalm xe. 10. 
 
 novum artieulum facere, nee articuluni t' Psalm Ixxxv. 10. 
 
 Y4 
 
TABLE 
 
 OF THE 
 
 PRINCIPAL CONTENTS 
 
 A FRICAN8, their opposing tlie Ro- 
 man church, and separating from 
 it, 142, &c. they are cursed and 
 damned for it hy Eulalius, and this 
 accepted hy the pope, 143. St. Augus- 
 tine involved in tiiat curse, ihid. 
 Almain, Jac, against the pope's infalli- 
 bihty, 221. his absurd tenet touch- 
 ing the belief of scripture and the 
 church, 67. 
 Alphonsus a Castro, his confession touch- 
 ing the pope's fallibility, 221. his 
 moderation touching heresy, 21. his 
 late editions shrewdly purged, 22 2. 
 Anselm, St., archbishop of Canterbury, 
 how esteemed of by pope Urban II. 
 141. 
 Apocry])ha, some books received by 
 the Trent Fathers which are not by 
 Sextus Senensis, 282. 
 Appeals, of, to foreign churches, 1 40- 142. 
 no appeal from patriarchs or metro- 
 politans, ibid. 
 Arians, the large spreading of them, 
 254. wherein they dissented from 
 the orthodox Christians, 259. 
 Aristotle falsely charged to hold the 
 
 mortality of the soul, 91. 
 Assistance, what promised i)y Christ 
 to his church, what not, 76. 135, &c. 
 191, &c. w'hat given to his church 
 and pastors thereof, 78. Si. 199, 200. 
 212. 301. 
 Assurance infallible, even by human 
 
 proof, 101, 102. 
 Augiistine, St., cleared, 28. 46, 47. 67, 
 68 103. 139, 140. 156, &c. righted, 
 113. 201 — 203. 296. his proofs of 
 scripture, 82. 
 Author, the, his small time to prejiare 
 for tliis conference, 18. his sulmiis- 
 sion to the church of England, and 
 the church catholic, 190, 191. the 
 rule of his faith, 319. pride imputed 
 to liim, and retorted upon the impu- 
 ters, 318, 319. 
 Baptism, of anointing, use of spittle, 
 and three dippings in it, 56. that 
 of infants, how proved out of scrip- 
 
 ture, 45 — 47. acknowledged l)y some 
 Romanists that it may be proved 
 thence, 46. the necessity of it, 45. 
 how proved l)y tradition, and St. 
 Augustine's mind therein, 46, 47. 
 that by heretics, schismatics, and 
 sinners, not theirs t)ut Christ's, 251. 
 
 Basil, St., explained, 75. 
 
 Beatitude supreme, how to be attained, 
 92. 
 
 Belief of some things necessary before 
 they be known, 64, 65. vide Faith. 
 
 Bellarmine, his cinniing discovered and 
 confuted, 8 — 11. 172. his dissent 
 from Stapleton, 32. and from Ca- 
 liiarinus, 40. his absui-d and impious 
 tenet touching belief of sci'ipture 
 confuted, 71. 
 
 Berengarius, his gross recantation, 276. 
 
 Bernard, St., righted, 112, 113. 
 
 Biel, his tiiie assertion touching things 
 that be de fide, 327. 
 
 Bishops, their calling, and authority 
 over the inferior clergy, 144 — 146. 
 their places and precedencies ordered, 
 ibid, the titles given them of old, 
 139. all of the same merit and de- 
 gree, 166. 
 
 Bodies representing and represented, 
 their power, privileges, &c. comjiared 
 together, 190, &c. 219. 
 
 Brittany of old not subject to the see <»f 
 Rome, 141, 142. St. Gildas his tes- 
 timony cojicerning the antiipiity of 
 the conversion of it, 262. and that 
 testimony vindicated, 263. 
 
 Calvin and Calvinists for the real pre- 
 sence, 246, &c. 249. 
 
 Campanella, his late eclogue, 175. 
 
 Cam])ian, his boldness, 120. 
 
 Canterbm-y, the ancient place and power 
 of the archbishops thereof, 141, 142. 
 
 Capellns, his censure of Baronius, 124. 
 
 Certainty, vid. Faith. 
 
 Certainty of salvation, vid. Salvation. 
 
 Christ's descent into hell, vid. De- 
 scent. 
 
 Church, whereon founded, 9, 10. where- 
 in it differetli from a general council, 
 
CONTENTS. 
 
 329 
 
 22. no particular one infallible, 3, 4. 
 73, 74, &c. not that of Rome, 3, 4. 
 6, 7, &c. 13, 14. catholic church, 
 which is it, 262, &c. her declarations, 
 what fundamental, what not, 25. how 
 far they bind, 25, 26. her authority 
 not divine, 27. not in those things 
 wherein she cannot eri-, 53. wherein 
 she cannot universally err, 114, 115. 
 132. 200. what can take hohness 
 from her, 115, 116. in what points 
 of faith she may err, 132, 133. her 
 errors and corruptions, how and by 
 whom caused, 159. what reiiuired of 
 her that she may not err, 161. she 
 in the commonwealth, not the com- 
 monwealth in her, 167, &c. how she 
 must be always visible, 267. the in- 
 visible in the visible, 114. of her 
 double root, 311, 312. what the 
 opinion of the ancients concerning it, 
 306, 307, &c. 310. a church and the 
 church, liow they differ, 104, 105, 
 &c. liy what assistance of the Spirit 
 the cluu-ch can be made infallible, 74- 
 the authority of the primitive com- 
 pared with that of the present church, 
 66. 
 Church of Caesarea, her title given by 
 
 Gregory Nazianzen, 139. 
 Church, Greek, vid. Greek church. 
 Church of England a ])art of the catho- 
 lic, 132, &c. where her doctrine is set 
 down, 40, 41. her motherly deaUng 
 with her children, ibid, her articles 
 and canons maintained, 41. of her 
 positive and negative articles, 43, 44. 
 her jjurity, 317. how safe to com- 
 municate with her, 314. what judges 
 and rules in things spiritual she hath 
 and acknowledgeth, 175. how she is 
 wronged by the Roman, 263. salva- 
 tion more certain in her than in the 
 Roman, 273, &c. 
 How one particular church may judge 
 another, 137, &c. mutual crimina- 
 tions of the eastern and western, 147. 
 Church, a, in Israel after her separa- 
 tion from Judah, 123. 
 Church of Rome, wherein she hath 
 erred, 15. 73. sometimes right, not 
 so now, 107. though she be a true 
 church, yet not right or orthodox, 
 104, 105. her want of charity, 19, 
 20. her determining of too many 
 things, the cause of many evils, 40, 
 41. her severity in cursing all other 
 Christians, 41, 42. how far she ex- 
 tendeth the authority of her testi- 
 mony, 51. her rash condemning of 
 others, 114 — 117. how she and how 
 other churches apostolic, 312. how 
 corrupted in doctrine and manners, 
 120, 121. she not the catholic church, 
 
 152. 311, 312. false titles given her, 
 316. her belief, how different from 
 that of the ancient church, 275. 
 other churches as ^vell as she called 
 matres, and oricjinules ecclcsicB, 307, 
 &c. a church at Jerusalem, Antioch, 
 and (probably) in England, before one 
 at Rome, 262. cardinal Peron his ab- 
 surd tenet, that the Roman church 
 is tlie catholic causally, 263. vid. 
 Errors, Pope, liome. 
 Conconiitancy in the eucharist, \id. 
 
 Eucharist. 
 Conference, the occasion of this, i, 2. 
 the Jesuit's manner of deah'ng in 
 this, and in two former, 272. 
 Confessions negative, made by churches, 
 
 in what case needful, 12S. 
 Controversies, that in them consent of 
 parties is no proof of truth, 231. 245. 
 255, &c. 
 Councils, their fallibihty, 190. 201. 207, 
 208, <&c. 289. the infallibility they 
 have is not exact but congjuous in- 
 fallibility, 212. whence and where 
 it is principally resident, 213. 220. 
 none of the present church absolutely 
 infallible, 74. confirmation of them 
 by the pope, a Roman novelty, 162. 
 \^'ho may dispute against them, who 
 not, 27, 28. 31. how inferiors may 
 judge of their decrees, 206. a general 
 council the only fit judge of the pre- 
 sent controversies, 172. 176. and how 
 that to be (juahfied, 125 — 128. 160, 
 161. 184, 185, &c. the bishop of 
 Rome not always president in general 
 coinicils, 178, 179. what impediments 
 have been and now are of calling 
 and continuing them, 163. what con- 
 firmation they need, 161, 162. 187. 
 what of them lawful, what not, 1 79. 
 &c. what obedience to be yielded to 
 them erring, 185, 186. 215, 216, &c. 
 what is the utmost they can do, 25. 
 the words Visum est Spiritui Saticto 
 et nobis, not used by any posterior 
 council, 197. the first and latter 
 councils differently assisted, 199. 2 1 2. 
 whence they have their power and 
 assistance, 190, «SiC. the i)rior may 
 be amended by the posterior, 202, 
 (Sec. what decrees of them are neces- 
 sary to be believed, 206. how they 
 are' held by the Romanists to be in- 
 fallible, 208. their decrees, by Staple- 
 ton held to be the oracles of the 
 Holy Ghost, 198. that they are not 
 prophetical in their conclusions, 208, 
 209. of their necessity and frequency, 
 162. that they may err, the whole 
 church not erring, 215. their errors 
 how to be amended, 128. how made 
 of no worth at all bv the Romanists 
 
330 
 
 CONTENTS. 
 
 without the pope, 220. councils and 
 Fathers, how we are sure we have 
 their true copies, 279, 280. conclu- 
 sions of councils, how to be believed, 
 291, 292. their determinations not 
 all of equal authority, 302. by whom 
 they were and ought to he called, 
 177- 179- against the pope's being 
 above a general council, 28 1 . 326, 32 7. 
 conditions reijuired to make a coun- 
 cil lawful, 180, 181. protestants in- 
 vited to one upon doubtful and dan- 
 gerous terms, 117. 
 
 Of the council of Florence, and the 
 Greeks their subscribing to it, 293. 
 
 Council of Constance, her injurious 
 proceeding against Huss, &c. ii8. 
 Becanus his defence of it confuted, 
 ibid, its great error touching com- 
 munion in one kind, 218. 
 
 Council of Nice, the absence of the 
 western bishops from it, how recom- 
 pensed, 183. council of Afric in 
 St. Cyprian's time, erred about bap- 
 tism by heretics, 201. 
 
 Council of Trent, how occasioned, and 
 what an one it was, 125. not gene- 
 ral nor legal, and so null, 177. 181. 
 compared with ancient councils, :^^, 
 34. 180, 181, &c. the Wind perti- 
 nacy of the Fathers there, 118. her 
 dangerous and wilful error concern- 
 ing the intention of those that ad- 
 minister tiie sacraments, 229 — 231. 
 claimed by Soto and Vega, for their 
 contrary tenets, 40. of things there 
 determined, 30. there the poi)e ought 
 not to have sat as president, T77 — 
 179. bishops made of purpose to 
 make a major part there, 182. more 
 Italian bishops in it than of all Chris- 
 tendom beside, ibid, its addition of 
 twelve new articles to the Creed, 2S7. 
 
 Creed, that it is a rule of faith, 34. 
 that it is wholly grounded on scrip- 
 ture, 36. some words added to it, 
 why, and by whom, 11. Irenwus 
 his famous testimony of it, 281. 
 Athanasian Creed expounded and 
 vindicated, 271, 288. 
 
 Cyprian, St., cleared, 3, &c. and 6. 
 and righted, 307. 
 
 Cyn\, St^, of Alexandria vindicated, to. 
 
 Demonstrative reasons of greater force 
 than any other human proof, 205. 
 direct proof and demonstrative, how 
 they differ, 44. 
 
 Descent of Christ into hell, how held by 
 the church of England, and how by 
 those of Rome, 37, 38. 255. 
 
 Dissent and difference in opinion, what 
 may stand with the peace of the 
 church, 303, 304- 
 
 Disputations, their use, 104. when and 
 
 how lawful for a private man to dis- 
 pute with tlie whole church, 106. 
 public disputations, how safe or avail- 
 able, 119 — 121. in what case to be 
 admitted between the English and 
 the Romish clergy, 1 20. 
 
 Divinity, that it hath a science above 
 it, and what, 100. the i)rinciples of 
 it otherwise confirmed than those of 
 any other art, 85, 86. 99, 100. 
 
 Donatus, two of that name, 252. 
 
 Donatists compared with the Romanists, 
 •250 — 253. whether any of them liv- 
 ing and dying so, had possibility of 
 salvation, and which, 252, 253. whe- 
 ther they were guilty of heresy, ibid. 
 
 Emperor, whom the Jesuits would have 
 to be, 173, 174. vide Pope. 
 
 Epiphanius cleared and vindicated, 153 
 
 — 155- 
 
 Errors not fundamental, to whom, and 
 in what case damnable, 268 — 270. 
 313. errors of councils, vide Councils. 
 errors of the Roman church, wanting 
 all proof from ancient councils arid 
 Fathers, 285, &c. 324. what be the 
 most dangerous of them, 318. errors 
 of papists, to whom fundamental, 
 280. vide Church of Rome. 
 
 Eucharist, a threefold sacrifice in it, 25 7, 
 258. mutilated by the Roman church, 
 15. 218, 219. upon what hard terms 
 the Bohemians were dispensed with, 
 to have it in both kinds, 255. the 
 pa])ists tied by their own grounds to 
 believe of it as the church of Eng- 
 land doth, 241, &c. the church of 
 England and other protestants be- 
 heve Christ's real presence in it, 242. 
 243, &c. 246 — 249. concomitancy in 
 it, Thomas of Aquin's fiction, con- 
 futed, 256. Bellarmine's notorious 
 contradiction of Christ's being in it 
 corporally present, 248, 249. his new 
 and intricate doctrine touching tran- 
 substantiatiim, 275, 276. of the un- 
 bloody sacrifice and tlie bloody, how 
 they differ, 257, 258. the propitia- 
 tory aud gratulatory sacrifice, how 
 they differ, ibid. 
 
 Expositions, such only right as the 
 thing expounded containeth, 25. 
 
 Extravagauts, the, censured, 177. 
 
 Faith, how it is unchangeable, and yet 
 hath been changed, 8. what is certain 
 by the certainty of it, 31 — 33. not to 
 be termed the Roman, but Christian 
 or catholic faith, 1 1 1, &c. the two re- 
 gular precepts of it, 33, &c. of its prime 
 principles and how they differ from 
 the articles of it, 35. the last resolution 
 of it into what it should be, 5 1 , &c. 
 72. 82, 83. 277. 288, 289, <Si.c. faith 
 acquired and faith iiifused, wherein 
 
CONTENTS. 
 
 331 
 
 either or both required, 59. how few 
 things are essential to the faith, 303, 
 304. how its principles iliiTer from 
 those of sciences, 85. its foundation 
 the scripture, 42, 43. by it man 
 brought to his last happiness, 86. 88 
 — 90. how by it the understanding 
 is captivated, 91. that it is an act 
 produced by the will, 60, 61. 86. the 
 lirincii)les of it have sufficient evi- 
 dence of proof, 97. it and reason com- 
 pared in their objects, <SlC., 2 10, &c. 
 a latitude in it in reference to dif- 
 fereiitnien'ssalvatioii,273. 305. things 
 of two sorts belonging to it, 30. what 
 by it to be believed explicitly, what not, 
 2'So, 281. of tlie perfection and cer- 
 tainty of it, 326,327. of things not ne- 
 cessary to salvation no infallible faith 
 can be among men, 301. foundation 
 of faith, how shaken, 31. how fretted 
 by those of Rome, 75. the cathoHc 
 and now Roman faith not i<oth one, 
 28+. faith of scripture to be God's 
 word infused by the Holy Ghost, 59, 
 60. the true grounds of it, 90 — 94. 
 our faith of it how it differs from 
 that of those who wrote scriiiture, 89, 
 90. faith of scripture, that it hath all 
 perfections necessary, 93, 94- tow 
 firm and invincible it is, ibid. 
 Felicity, what it is, and that the soul 
 
 of man is capable of it, 9 1, 92. 
 Ferus, his acknowledgment of the dif- 
 ference betwixt the first councils and 
 the late ones, 199. 
 Fundamental, what maketh a point to 
 be such, 24 — 27. that decrees of 
 councils are not such, 29. what points 
 be so and what not, 21, 22. 26, 27. 
 ^^, 34, &c. 280, 281. nctt all of a hke 
 prinieness, 35. all fumlamentals held 
 liv llie wliole church, 22. points not 
 fundamental, how and to whom neces- 
 sary to salvation, 22, 23. firm and 
 f\indaniental, how they differ, 29. 
 Gerson, his ingenuity, 126. 
 Ghost, Holy, how said to be lost, 17. his 
 l)rocessi()n from the Son added to the 
 Creed by the Roman churcli, 20. i 24. 
 the Greek church, her error touching 
 this, I 7. what, and liow dangerous, 20. 
 God, proof of the true one by testi- 
 mony of the false ones, 63. 
 Government of the church, in what 
 sense monarchical, in what aristocra- 
 tical, 165, i6r),&.c. how a monarchi- 
 cal not needful, 17-;. St. Gregory 
 Nazianzeu vindicated, 9. his humi- 
 lity and mildness, 139. 
 Gregory VII. pope, the raiser of the 
 papacy to the height, 171, 172. his 
 twenty-seven conclusions, the basis of 
 the papal greatness, 1 50. 
 
 Greek church, notwithstanding her er- 
 ror, still a true church, 19. and jtis- 
 tified by some Romanists, 20. her 
 liard usage by the cluu-ch of Rome, 
 ibid, of her bishoi)s, tlieir subscrip- 
 tion to the council of Florence, 292. 
 Heresies, what maketh them, 25. the 
 occasion of their first springing up, 
 162. how and by whom begun at 
 Rome, 12, 13- 
 Heretics, who, and who not, 133. none 
 to be rashly condenmed for such, 21. 
 that some may pertain to the church, 
 133. who they be that teach that 
 faith given to heretics is not to be 
 kept, 117, 118. 
 IIierome,KSt., explained, 7. 112. in what 
 
 esteem he had bishoi)s, 145. 
 Hooker righted, 72, 73. 
 James, St., believed to have been succes- 
 sor of our Lord in the principality of 
 the church, 155. 
 Idolaters, their gods how put down by 
 Christian religion, 63, 64. idolatiy, 
 how maintained in the church of 
 Rome, and with what evil conse- 
 quents, 232, (Sec. 
 Jeremias the Greek patriarch, his cen- 
 sure, 184. 
 Jesuits, their manner of deahng in this 
 conference, 272. their cunning in 
 expounding the Fathers to their own 
 purjjof e, 8. their confidence, 18. their 
 arrogancy, 77. their subtle mahg- 
 nity, 3 1 6. their attributing to them- 
 selves infallibility, 77. tlieir desire of 
 having one king as one pope, 82, 83. 
 their late cunning argument to draw 
 ])rotestants to them, answered, &c. 
 250. their falsification of the author's 
 words, 109, 1 10. 
 Jesuitism, a perfect, 106. 
 Jews, the ground of their belief of the 
 
 Old Testament, 100. 
 Images, how worshipped liy the church 
 of Rome, 15. against adoration of 
 them, 232, 2^,^. Cassander his com- 
 jdaint of it, 234. the flying from 
 image-worship should not make us to 
 run into profaneness and irreverence 
 against God, 235. 
 Infallible, two accei>tions of it, 102. 
 infallible and firm, how they differ, 
 161. the evils ensuing the opinion of 
 the church's and the pope's infalli- 
 bility, 181, &c. 218. 224. what an 
 iiifiiilibihty of the church Stapleton 
 is forced to acknowledge, 212, 213. 
 vide Councils, and I'ojir, and Church. 
 Innocent III., his extolling the pope 
 
 above tlie emperor, 1 70, &c. 
 Invocation of saints, against, 232, 
 
 23.^ 
 Irenseus vindicated, 150, &c. 322 — 325. 
 
332 
 
 CONTENTS. 
 
 Israel a church after hei' separation 
 from Judah, 123. 
 
 Judge, who to be in controversies 
 touching faith and manners, 128, 
 129, &c. 137. 327. what judges of 
 this kind the church hath, 161. 327. 
 who to judge when a general council 
 cannot be had, 163, J 64. that no vi- 
 sible judge can i)revent or remedy all 
 heresy and schism, 165. a visible 
 living judge of all controversies, 
 whether always necessary, 165, &c. 
 wherein jirivate men may judge, and 
 wherein not, 2. 1S9. 204. 
 
 Keys, the, to whom given, and how, 
 156. 213,214. 
 
 Kings, custodes lUriusque tabular, 171. 
 not to be tyrannized over by the pope, 
 158, 159. their supremacy in things 
 spiritual, 170. some Romanists for 
 the deposing and killing of tliem, 285. 
 
 Knowledge of God, how difficult, 90, 
 91. what knowledge needful to breed 
 faith, 70, 71. what degree of it is 
 necessary to salvation, hard to deter- 
 mine, 273, 274. 305. the apostles' 
 kno\\'ledge, how different from that of 
 their hearers, 87, 88. 
 
 fAmbus patrum, against, 255. 275. 
 
 Litene comrmmicatorite, what they 
 were and of what use, 167. 
 
 lionibard, Peter, condemned of heresy 
 by the pope, 223. 
 
 ]\laldonat answered, 186. 
 
 JManichees, their foul heresy, and what 
 stumbled them, 64. 
 
 Manners, corruption in them no suffi- 
 cient cause of separation, 120, 
 121. 
 
 INIartyrs, of the feasts made of old at 
 their oratories, 233. 
 
 Mass, the English Litiu-gy })etter and 
 safer than it, 259. Avhat manner of 
 sacrifice it is made by them of Rome, 
 258. 
 
 Matrix and radix, in St. Cyprian, not 
 the Roman church, 308 — 3 1 1 . 
 
 Merits, against their condignity, 238. 
 
 Miracles, what proofs of divine truth, 
 61. 87, 88. not wrought by all the 
 writers of scripture, 88. what kind 
 of assent is commonly given to them, 
 ibid. 
 
 Multitude no sure mark of the truth, 
 
 255: 
 
 NovatianSj their oi-iginal, 3. 1 2. 
 
 Novatian, how dealt with by St. Cy- 
 prian, 29. 309, &c. 
 
 Obedience, of that which is due to the 
 church and her pastors, 1 98. 
 
 Occham, his true resolution touching 
 that which maketh an article of faith, 
 
 .327- 
 Origen, his errors obtruded by Rufinus, 
 
 7. he the first founder of purgatory, 
 293. 297. _ 
 
 Papists, their denying possibility of sal- 
 vation to protestants confuted and 
 their i-easons answered, 238 — 241. 
 of their going to protestant churches 
 and joining themselves to their as- 
 semblies, 316. 
 
 Parents, their power over their chil- 
 dren, 130. 
 
 Parliaments, what matters they treat of 
 and decree, 175, 176. 
 
 Pastors, lawfully sent, what assistance 
 promised to them, 77 — 79. their em- 
 bassy, of what authority, 81. 
 
 Patriarchs, all alike supreme, 140 — 142. 
 147. no appeal from them, 141, 
 142. 148. 
 
 People, the unlearned of them saved 
 by the simplicity of faith, 133. 
 
 Perjidia, the different significations of 
 it, 4 — 6. 
 
 Peter, St., of Christ's prayer for him, 
 134, 135. 157, 158, of his primacy, 
 l)reeminency and power, 153, &c. 
 
 155. 193. in what sense the church 
 is said to be built u]ion him, 155. 
 that he fell, but not from the faith, 
 
 156, 157. whether he were universal 
 pastor, 158. the highest power eccle- 
 siastical, how given to him, and how 
 to the rest of the apostles, 138, 139. 
 320,321. 
 
 Pope, not infallible, 2 — 7. 13 — 15. 74, 
 75. 157. 187. 327. how improbable 
 and absurd it is to say he is so, 223, 
 224, &c. he made more infallil)le by 
 the Romanists than a general coun- 
 cil, 220. his infallibility held by some 
 .against conscience, 223, 224. if he 
 had any it were useless, 227. how 
 opjiosed l)y Alphonsus a Castro, 221, 
 222. the belief and knowledge of it, 
 both of them impossible, 227. that he 
 may ei-r and hath erred, 173. that he 
 may err as pope, 223, 224. preferred 
 by some before a general coinicil, 
 220, 221. not monarch of the church , 
 167. he hath not a negative voice in 
 councils, 327. made by some as infal- 
 lil)le without as with a general coiui- 
 cil, 220, 221. his confirmation of ge- 
 neral councils of what avail, 231. 
 of his power in France and Spain, 
 
 167, 168. 172. how much greater 
 he is made by some than the em- 
 peror, 167, 16S, &c. 174. his power 
 slighted by some great princes, 167, 
 
 168. 172. whether he may be an 
 heretic, and being one, how to be 
 dealt with, 226. all his power, pre- 
 rogatives, i\c. indirectly denied by 
 Stapleton, 38. 
 
 Popes, the fall of some of them, and 
 
CONTENTS. 
 
 333 
 
 the consequents thereof, 121. of their 
 power and principahty, 138, 139, &c. 
 327. their sulijectioii to the emperor, 
 146, 147. and liow lost by the em- 
 peror, 148, 149. and how recovered, 
 149. primacy of order granted them l)y 
 ecclesiastical constitutions, but no 
 j)rincipality of power from Christ, 
 138, 139. some of them opposed by 
 the African church, 142. some of 
 them heretics, 157. some apostates, 
 222. some false ])rophets, 223. how 
 untit judges of controversies, 207, 
 208. &c. the lewtl lives of many of 
 them, 220, 221. pope Liberius his 
 clear testimony against the pope's in- 
 fallibility, 222. 
 
 Prayer, what requisite that it may be 
 heard, iTn. 196, 197. prayer for the 
 dead, that it presupposeth not purga- 
 tory, 207. 
 
 Preachers, how their preaching to be 
 esteemed of, Si. none since the apo- 
 stles infallible, 300, 301. 
 
 Precisians, their ojiposition to lawful 
 ceremonies occasioned by the Roman- 
 ists, 235. that there be of them in the 
 Roman church no less than in the 
 protestant, 1 1 1 . their agreement in 
 many things, 81. 
 
 Princes, the moderation and equity of 
 all that are good, 130. the power of 
 sovereign princes in matters eccle- 
 siasticjil, 140, 141. all of the clergy 
 subject to them, 1 70. 
 
 Prophecy, the s])irit of it not to be at- 
 tained by study, 20S, 209. 
 
 Protestants, why so called, in. of their 
 departing from the errors of the 
 Roman church, 109 — in. on what 
 terms invited by Rome to a general 
 council, 117, 118. their charitable 
 grant of possibility of salvation in 
 the Roman church, met with unclia- 
 ritalileness by the Roman party, 237, 
 238. they that deny jjossibility of sal- 
 vation to them confuted, 239 — 241. 
 their faith sufficient to salvation, 273, 
 274. 
 
 Purgatory, not thoughton by any Father 
 within the three first hundred years, 
 
 293. not presupposed I)y prayer for 
 the dead, 294. Origenthe first founder 
 of it, 293. 297. proofs of it examined, 
 
 294. 298. the purgatories mentioned 
 by the Fathers, different from that 
 believed by Rome, 294 — 296. the 
 Fathers alleged for it cleared, 293, &c. 
 the papists, their blasphemous asser- 
 tion touching the necessity of behev- 
 ing it, 298. Bellarmine's contradic- 
 tion touching the beginning of it, ibid. 
 
 Reason not excluded or blemished by 
 grace, 61, 62. the chief use of it, 64. 
 
 what place it hath in the proof of 
 divine supernatural truths, 49. 61. 
 how high it can go in proving the 
 truth of ('hristiaii religion, 62. 21 1. 
 
 Reformation, in what case it is lawful 
 for a particular church to reform her- 
 self, 122, &.C. and to publish any thing 
 that is catholic, in faith or manners, 
 ' ^3) 1.^7- examples of it, 126, 127. 
 refonnation by protestants, how to be 
 judged of, 125. faults incident to re- 
 formation and reformers of religion, 
 1 28. who the chief hinderers of a 
 general reformation, 1 29. reformation 
 of the church of England justified, 
 144. the manner of it, 127, 128. what 
 places ])rinces have in the reformation 
 of the church, ibid. 
 
 Religion, Christian, how the truth of it 
 proved by the ancients, 62. the pro- 
 pagation of it, and tlie firmness where 
 it is once received, 63, 64. the evil of 
 beheving it in one sort, and prac- 
 tising, it in another, 314, 315. yet 
 this taught l)y some Jesuits, and 
 Romish priests, ibid, one Christian 
 religion of protestants and Romanists, 
 though they differ in it, 317. private 
 men's opinions in religion, not to be 
 esteemed the church's, 25. religion, 
 as it is professed in the church of 
 England, nearest, of any chiu-ch now 
 being, to the primitive church, 317. 
 
 Resurrection, \\hat believed by all Chris- 
 tians, what i)y some heretics denied, 
 259, 260. 
 
 Revelation, private, in what case to be 
 admitted, 62. divine, the necessity of 
 it, 92. 
 
 Rhenanus, B., purged on behalf of 
 Rome, 310. 
 
 Ridley, bishop, his full confession of the 
 real presence, 24S. his conviction of 
 archbishop Cranmer's judgment touch- 
 ing it, 249. 
 
 Romans, who truly such, and their true 
 privilege, 5. Rome, her praeter and 
 superstructures in the faith, 8, 9. 
 she and Spain compared in their two 
 monarchies, i 74. heresies both begun 
 and maintained in her, 11, 12. 
 wherein slie hath erred, 15. whether 
 impossible for the apostolic see to l)e 
 removed thence, 11;, 16. that she 
 may apostatize, 16. her definitions of 
 things not necessary', 26. she the chief 
 hinderance of a general reformation, 
 1 39, &c. of her pretended sovereignty, 
 and the bad effects of it, 129, 130. 
 &c. what principality and power she 
 hath, and whence, 13S, 139. 145, &c. 
 152. she not the head of the church, 
 nor did all churches depend on her, 
 141,142. 150, 151. that she hath kept 
 
334 
 
 CONTENTS. 
 
 nor faith nor unity inviolated, 327. 
 whether all Christians be houiul to 
 agree with her in faith, 150. and in 
 what case they are so, 152. the an- 
 cient Itonnds of her jiu-isdiction, 152. 
 possibility of salvation in her, and 
 to whom, 133, &c. the danger of 
 living and dying in her commnnion, 
 249 254. her rigour and crnelty be- 
 yond that of schismatical Israel, 250. 
 her fundamental errors, of what na- 
 ture, 268, i()g. the catholic church 
 her head and root, not she of it, 310, 
 &c. 
 Roman see, in what case a particular 
 church may make canons, without 
 consulting it, 124, 125, &c. 138. 
 Romanists, their cunning dealing with 
 their converts in fieri, 105. of their 
 calling for a free hearing, 119, 120. 
 their agreement with the Donatists, 
 in contracting the church to their 
 side, 242, 243. their danger, in dif- 
 ferent respects, lesser or greater than 
 that of the Donatists, 252, 253. 
 RuHnus, his pernicious cunning, 7. his 
 dissent from the Roman church, 1 2, 
 13. branded by the pope with heresy, 
 15. his words explained, 10 — 12. 
 Sacraments, against the necessity of his 
 intention who administers them, 228, 
 229, &c. 258. 275. 
 Sacrilege and schism usually go toge- 
 ther, 128. 
 Saints, against the invocation of them, 
 232, 233. they are made by ISellar- 
 mine to be mintina, and in some 
 sort our redeemers, ibid. 
 Salvation, controversies amongst the 
 Romanists about the certainty of it, 
 40. 
 Schism, the heinousness of it, 120, 121. 
 who the cause of it at this day, 1 09. 
 112. 159. the continuance of it, 
 whence, 1 1 9. 
 Schismatical church, to live in one, and 
 to communicate in the schism, how 
 different, 250. the protestants their 
 leaving Rome, no schism, 159. of the 
 schism of Israel, and those that lived 
 there in the time of it, 123. 250. 
 Science, sujjreme, what, 99. 
 Scotus righted, 24. 
 
 Scripture, that it was received and 
 hath continued uncorrnpt, 100. what 
 books make up the canon of it, 13. 
 all parts of it alike firm, not alike 
 fundamental, 33. that it is the word 
 of God is a prime principle of faith, 
 35, &c. 95, 96. loi. the sufficiency of 
 it, 42. 95^ 96. 103, &c. how known 
 to be God's word, 48, &c. of the cir- 
 cular probation of scripture by tradi- 
 ion, and tradition by scripture, 48. 
 
 95. the different ways of proving it, 
 49. it is a higher proof than the 
 church's tradition, 50. the testimony 
 proving it must be divine and in- 
 fallible, 54. 57. 59. whether it can be 
 known to be God's word l)y its own 
 light, 57, 58. and that the Roman 
 church, by her own tenet, ought so 
 to hold, 58. what tlie chief, and what 
 the first inducement to the credibility 
 of it, 67, 68. 72. 82, 83. 86. the 
 divine light thereof, and what liglit 
 tlie natural man sees in it, 67, 68. 
 confirmation by doui)le divine au- 
 tliority, 69. 82, 83. what measin-e of 
 light is or can i)e required in it, 70, 
 71. as now set forth and printed, of 
 what authority it is, 74. 80. scrij)ture 
 and tradition confirm either otlier 
 mutually, not equally. So. the way of 
 the ancient church, of proving scrip- 
 ture to be God's word, 82. foiu- jii-oofs 
 brought for it, ibid, the seeming con- 
 tradiction of Fathers touching scrip- 
 ture and tradition reconciled, 84. 
 belief of scripture, the true grounds 
 of it, 90 — 92. rules of finding the 
 true sense of it, 52. how rich a store- 
 house it is, 92, 93. the writers of it, 
 what certainty we have who they 
 were, 87. proof of its divine authority, 
 to whom necessary, 95. infallible as- 
 surance of that authority by human 
 jiroof, 10. tliat it is a rule sufficient 
 and infallible, 163 — 165. tlu-ee things 
 observable in that rule, 164. its pi'e- 
 rogative above genei-al councils, 200. 
 comi)ared with dnurh-definitions, 207. 
 what assurance that we have the true 
 sense of scriptures, councils, Fathers, 
 &c. 277, 278, &c. some books of 
 scripture anciently doubted of, and 
 some not canonical, received by some 
 into the canon, 58. 
 
 Separation, actual and causal, 117, r r8. 
 tor Avhat one church may lawfiilly 
 separate from another, 1 14, 1 15. 1 19, 
 120. corruption in m.anners no suffi- 
 cient cause of separation, 120, 121. 
 what separation necessary, 109. 
 
 Sermons exalted to too great a height 
 both l)y Jesuits and Precisians, 94. 
 their true worth and use, ibid. 
 
 Simanca, his foul tenet concerning faith 
 given to heretics, t i 8. 
 
 Sixtus Senensis, his doubting of some 
 t)f the apocryjihal books received liy 
 the council of Trent, 282. 
 
 Socinianism, the monster of heresies, 
 260. archbishop of Spalatro made to 
 speak for Rome, 298. 
 
 Spirit, private, of the, 58, 59. 205, 206. 
 
 Successiim, what a one a note of the 
 church, 322 — 324. not to be found in 
 
CONTENTS. 
 
 335 
 
 Rome, 325. Stapleton his inconstancy 
 coiH'crniiig it, 324. 
 
 Testimony of the cluirch, whether di- 
 vine or human, 49. the testimony of 
 it alone cannot make good tlie infal- 
 libiUty of the scripture, 53, 54. 
 
 Theopliihis of Alexaii(h-ia, his worth, 
 and liis violent spirit, 146. 
 
 Traditions, what to l)e approved, 36, 
 37. 42, 43. 54, 55. tradition and 
 scri])tMre proofs of the same things, 
 48. is not a sufficient proof of scrip- 
 ture, 49, 50. it and God's unwritten 
 word not terms convertilile, 54, 
 55. tradition of the present church, 
 what uses it hath, 66, 67. 70. 102. 
 how it diifereth from the ti-adition of 
 the primitive cluirch, 66. So. tradi- 
 tion of the church mere himian au- 
 thority, 73. what tradition the Fa- 
 thers meant by saying, We have the 
 scriptures by tradition, 84, 85. tra- 
 dition a]iostolical, the necessity and 
 use of it, iliid. tradition, how known 
 before scripture, 97, 98. wliat most 
 likely to be a tradition apostolical, 
 48, 49. the danger of leaning too 
 mudi upon tradition, 99. 
 
 Transubstantiation, against, 231. 242, 
 
 243. '247. 275. Suarez his plain con- 
 fession that it is not of necessary 
 belief, 242. Cajetan and Alphonsus 
 a Castro their opinion concerning it, 
 286. scandal taken l)y Averroes at 
 the doctrine of it, 276. vide Eucha- 
 rist. 
 
 True and right, their difference, 104, 
 105. 
 
 Victor, pope, taxed by [renins, 150. 
 
 Vincentius Lirinensis cleaj-ed,3i. 
 
 Union of C^hristendom, how little re- 
 garded and how liindered by Rome, 
 258. 273. 
 
 Unity, the causes of the breaches there- 
 of, 304, &c. not that unity in the 
 faith amongst the Itomanists which 
 tliev so much boast of, 282. 
 
 Universal bishop, a title condemned by 
 St. (iregory, yet usurped by his suc- 
 cessors, 147, 148. 
 
 ^Vord of God, that it may he written 
 and luiwritten, 54. why written, 55, 
 56. uttered mediately or immediately, 
 54. many of (rod's unwritten words 
 not delivered to the church, 56. vide 
 Scripture and Trnilition. 
 
 W'orth of men, of what weight in prov- 
 ing truth, 254. 
 
[ .336 ] 
 
 A Table of the i^laces of Scripture which are 
 explained or referred to. 
 
 Genesis i. 16. j). 169. 173. 
 Deuteronomy iv. 2. p. 26. xiii. I, 2, 
 
 3. p. 88. xxi. 19. p. !3i- xvii. 18. 
 
 p. 171. 
 Judges vi. p. 164. 
 
 1 Samuel iii. 13. viii. 3. 5. p. 131. 
 
 3 Kings xii. 27. p. 123. xiii. 11. p. 250. 
 
 xvii. p. 123. 249, 250. xix. 18. p. 249, 
 
 4 Kings iii. ix. 6. p. 123. 249. xxui. 2. 
 p. 127. 171. 
 
 2 Chron. xxiv. 4. p. 171. xxix. p. 127. 
 Psalms i. 2. xviii. 11. et passim, p. 93. 
 
 Iviii. 4. p. 317. Ixxxv. 10. xc. 10. 
 
 p. 327. xciv. 10. p. 86. cxix. 105. 
 
 p. 68. 
 Proverbs i. 8. vi. 20. 22. p. 216. 
 Isaiah xliv. et passim, p. 58. liii. 1. 
 
 p. 89. 
 Jeremiah ii. 13 p. 283. v. 31. p. 99. 
 
 XX. 7. xxxviii. 17. p. 89. xliv. p. 91. 
 Ezekiel xiii. 11. p. 28. 
 Hosea iv. 15. ix. 17- p. 123. 
 Matthew iv. 19. p. 33. ix. 12. p. 47. 
 
 X. 17. p. 1 55. xi. 28. p. 87. xii. 22. 
 
 p. 64. xiii. 25. p. 108. xvi. 17. p. 64. 
 
 154. xvi. 18. p. 10. 115. 192. 134. 
 
 156. 291. xvi. 19. p. 38. xvi. 21. 
 
 p. 33. xvi. 28. p. 200. xviii. 7. 
 
 p. 109. xviii. 17. p. 216. 239. xviii. 
 
 18. p. 156. xviii. 19. p. 195. xviii. 
 
 20. p. 192. 195. xxii. 37. p. 306. 
 
 xxvi. ]>. 217, 218. xxviii. 19, 20. 
 
 p. 78. 155. 192. xxviii. 21. p. 135. 
 Mark x. 14. p. 47. xiii. 22. p. 88. 
 Luke i. 30. p. 54. ix. 23. p. 90. x. 16. 
 
 p. 77. xii. 48. p. 305. xvi. 8. p. 74. 
 
 xxii. 32. p. 38. 135. 156. 192. 
 John iv. p. 83. v. 31. p. 72. v. 47. 
 
 p. 55. 100. vi. 45. p. 92. vi. 70. 
 
 p. 324. viii. 13. p. 72. ix. 29 p. 100. 
 
 X. 4. p. 83. X. 41. p. 88. xi. 42. 
 
 p. 158. xii. 48. p. 267. xiii. 13. p. 81. 
 
 xiv.' 16, 17. p. 79. 135- ^9^- '^i^- 
 
 26. p. 192. xvi. 12, 13. p. 56. 79. 
 
 133. 136. 192. xvi. 14. p. 192. xvi. 
 
 26. p. 136. xvii. 3. p. 92. xix. 35. 
 
 p. 87. XX. 22. p. 156. xxi. IS, 16. 
 p. 38. 158. 
 Acts i. 3. p. 56. h. 38, 39. p. 46. iv. 
 12. p. 306. vi. p. 104. 163. 219. ix. 
 29. p. 104. XV. p. 163. 219. XV. 18. 
 p. 197. XV. 28. p. 192. xvi. 32. 
 
 p. 8g. xix. 17 
 
 p. 58. 
 Romans i. 8. p. 5. 112 
 
 p. 49. 91., V. 15. p. 27. 
 
 X. 10. p. 317. x. 14, 
 
 xi. 16. p. 116. xiii. I. 
 
 p. 26^. 284. 
 I Corinthians i. 10. p 
 
 p. 104. xxvin. 25. 
 
 20. 
 .01. 
 
 286. i 
 iii. 4. p. ^ 
 
 15. p. 299 
 p. 170. xiv 
 
 304- 
 
 n. II. 
 
 p. 267. ii. 14. p. 61. 68. 70. iii. 2. 
 p. 158. iii. II. p. 193. iii. 12. p. 266. 
 iii. i.S-P- 294. V. 5. p. 216. X, 15. 
 p. 2. xi. I. p. 78. 218. xi. 19. 
 p. 165. 304. xi. 23. p. 217. xii. 3, 4. 
 p. 59. xii. 10. p. 88. 209. xiii. 12. 
 
 P- 71- . „ o 
 
 2 Corinthians xi. 28. p. 138. 
 
 Galatians i. 8- p. 61. 93. iii. 19. p. 54. 
 
 v. 19 — 21. p. 251. 
 Ephesians i. 23. p. 121. ii. 20. p. 193. 
 
 iv. 5. p. 284. iv. II. 13. p. 320, 321. 
 
 V. 2. p. 256. V. 27. p. 316. 
 Philippians ii. 2. ]). 304. 
 Colossians iii 21. p. 131. 
 
 1 Thessalonians i. 6. p. 78 
 
 2 Thessalonians ii. 9. p. 88. ii 15. 
 p. 50. 58. 
 
 1 Timothy ih. 15. p. 27. vi. 16. p. 91. 
 vi. 20. p. 56 
 
 2 Timothy i. 14. p. 56. vi. 16. p. 91. 
 Hebrews v. 12. p. 158. ix. 12. x. 10. 
 
 p. 256. xi. I. p. 71. 86. xi. 6. p. 35. 
 306.' xi. 37. p. 261. xii. 9. p. 130. 
 xiii. 7. p. 215. 
 James i. 20. p. 125. 
 
 1 Peter i. 16. p. 92. ii. 21. p. 59. iii. 
 
 15. p. 211. v. 3. p. 74. 
 
 2 Peter i. 16. p. 92. i. 19. p. 101. 
 I John iv. 2. p. 35. 
 
 Jude 3. p. 58. 282. 
 Apocalypse xii. i. p. 172. 
 
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