AND 
 
 ARGUMENTS 
 
 GIVEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Assembly Committee on Canals, 
 
 March, 19th, 1879, 
 
 March 20th, 1879, 
 
 March 25th, 1879, 
 
 Favoring the introduction, without expense to the 
 State, of an improved system of towage upon 
 the Canals, by a Railway to be con- 
 structed subsidiary thereto. 
 
Committee: 
 
 Hon. J. H. Hurd of Erie, 
 
 " I. I. Hayes " New York, 
 
 " Titus Sheard " Herkimer, 
 
 " T. N. Van Valkenburg " Niagara, 
 
 " Eli Perry " Rensselaer, 
 
 " Edward Stewart " Saratoga, 
 
 " 0. A. Chickering " Lewis, 
 
 " H. W. Davis " Mod roe, 
 
 " T. D. Penfield Oneida. 
 
 Clerk, - - John P. Shumway. 
 
THIS PAMPHLET IS ISSUED 
 
 FREE 
 
 By the Buffalo, Syracuse and Albany Railroad Company. Copies 
 can be obtained upon application to, or will be sent by mail, by 
 addressing 
 
 F. E. FEOTH INGHAM, 
 
 Secretary. 
 
 Coal and Iron Exchange Building, 
 
 21 Cortlandt Street, New York. 
 
TESTIMONY GIVEN BEFORE THE ASSEMBLY CANAL 
 COMMITTEE, IN REFERENCE TO AN ACT TO INTRO- 
 DUCE, WITHOUT EXPENSE TO THE STATE, AN IM- 
 PROVED SYSTEM OF TOWAGE UPON THE CANALS 
 BY A RAILWAY, TO BE CONSTRUCTED SUBSIDIARY 
 THERETO. 
 
 Hearing before the Canal Committee of the Assembly in the 
 matter of the construction of a railroad between Buffalo and Al- 
 bany along the banks of the Erie and Oswego Canals, for the 
 towage of canal boats, etc. 
 
 Present of the Committee, Messrs. Hurd, Sheard, Stewart, 
 Davis and Penfield. The Chairman asked if there were any 
 gentlemen who desired to be heard on the bill introduced by Mr. 
 Davis, providing for the laying of tracks on the banks 
 of the Erie Canal for the purpose of towing boats, and being 
 answered in the affirmative, the Clerk was ordered to read the 
 bill through. 
 
 1 An Act to introduce, without expense to the State, an 
 
 2 improved system of towage upon the canals by a 
 
 3 railway to be constructed subsidiary thereto. 
 
 1 TJie People of the State of New York, represented in 
 
 2 Senate and Assembly, do hereby enact as follows : 
 
 1 Section 1. The Buffalo, Syracuse, and Albany Rail- 
 
 2 road Company, being organized, incorporated and exist- 
 
 3 ing under and by virtue of the provisions of an act of 
 
 4 the Legislature of this State, entitled "An act to au- 
 
 5 thorize the formation of railroad corporations, and to 
 
 6 regulate the same;" passed April 2nd, f850, and the 
 
 7 laws amendatory thereof and supplementary thereto, 
 
 8 and said Company having acquired thereby all the fran- 
 
 9 chises of a railroad in this State, through the countie 
 
 10 of Erie, Niagara, Orleans, Munroe, Wayne, Ontario, 
 
 11 Seneca, Cayuga, Onondaga, Madison, Oneida, Herki- 
 
3-: 
 
 12 mer, Montgomery, Schenectady, Livingston, Wyoming, 
 
 13 Alleghany, Cattaraugus, Oswego, Lewis, Jefferson, 
 
 14 Chenango, Broome and Albany, between Buffalo and 
 
 15 the Hudson River, and Oswego and the Hudson River, 
 
 16 and having a projected line, as exhibited by the maps 
 
 17 filed in the said counties, coincident with the canals or 
 
 18 banks thereof, situate within said counties ; and said 
 
 19 company being willing and desirous to contract for the 
 
 20 towing of boats and floats upon the canals of this State 
 
 21 at a large reduction from the present cost thereof, and 
 
 22 to improve the banks of said canals, and to construct the 
 
 23 necessary structures, crossings, roadways and gradings, 
 
 24 without cost to the State, and to lay its tracks, and to 
 
 25 convey freight arid passengers as well when said canals 
 
 26 shall be closed as at all other seasons of the year, upon 
 
 27 the terms stated in this act ; and said company being 
 
 28 willing to transfer to the State in perpetuity the said 
 
 29 structures, crossings and roadways, tracks, telegraphs 
 
 30 and fixtures immediately on the construction thereof, 
 
 31 under the approval of the proper officers of the State, 
 
 32 as hereinafter mentioned, reserving only the right to 
 
 33 the limited use thereof, as contemplated by this act. 
 
 34 Now in order to diminish the cost of the maintenance 
 
 35 and repair of the canals, and to increase their efficiency, 
 
 36 and to introduce improvements thereon, without ex- 
 
 37 pense |o the State, the Land Commissioners and Superin- 
 
 38 tendent of Public Works are hereby authorized, em- 
 
 39 powered and directed, upon the request of said railroad 
 
 40 company, to contract for and on behalf of the State with 
 
 41 the said Buffalo, Syracuse and Albany Railroad Com- 
 
 42 pan}% its successors or assigns, to exercise their corpo- 
 
43 rate franchises upon the banks of the canals of the State 
 
 44 of New York, for the purpose of carrying out the pro- 
 
 45 visions of this act, subject, nevertheless, to the control 
 
 46 and management of the said canals, as now vested in 
 
 47 the State, under the Constitution of ihe State of New 
 
 48 York, and to construct such structures and crossings, 
 
 49 and to make such gradings and roadways as may be 
 
 50 necessary for the purpose of introducing upon the 
 
 51 canals of this State a system of towage by locomotives 
 
 52 upon the banks, and of securing cheap transportation, 
 
 53 without expense to the State, in such manner and upon 
 
 54 such terms, subject to the control and management as 
 
 55 aforesaid, in addition to those hereinafter stated, as shall 
 
 56 be approved by the Superintendent of Public Works. 
 
 57 Said system and structures shall not interfere with 
 
 58 navigation in the said canals, nor with the management 
 
 59 thereof by the proper officers of the State, nor with the 
 
 60 free and unrestricted use of the said canals, as now pro- 
 
 61 vided by law. 
 
 62 All the structures, roadways, telegraphs and other 
 
 63 fixtures placed upon the banks of the canals shall at 
 
 64 once be and become the property of and be Vested in the 
 
 65 State of New York, and in addition thereto the said 
 
 66 railroad company shall convey to the Commissioners of 
 
 67 the Canal Fund, without cost to the State, one million 
 
 68 dollars of their capital stock, at par, as a special sink- 
 
 69 ing fund, to be accumulated and disposed of as herein- 
 
 70 after provided for. 
 
4 
 
 1 Section II, The said railroad company, its successors 
 
 2 or assigns, shall agree to tow for hire, by their locomo- 
 
 3 tives or by animal power, each boat or float that may be 
 
 4 offered, loaded or unloaded, at ten cents per boat per 
 
 5 mile for any (greater or less) distance ; and they shall 
 
 6 agree at all seasons of the year, whether the canals shall 
 
 7 be closed or not, to transport freight and passengers on 
 
 8 the roadways along said canals, under the approval of 
 
 9 the Superintendent of Public Works, and to run trains 
 
 10 for such purposes, at a charge for freight not exceeding 
 
 11 three-quarters of a cent per ton per mile for through 
 
 12 freight, and not exceeding one and one -half cents per 
 
 13 ton per mile, and twenty cents for loading or unloading 
 
 14 local freights, in all cases in quantities not less than a 
 
 15 car load, and in less amounts such uniform rates as the 
 
 16 railroad company may establish ; and at a charge for 
 
 17 passengers, through or local, at rates not exceeding one 
 
 18 and one-half cents per mile ; and through freights 
 
 19 under this section are hereby defined to mean freight in 
 
 20 quantities not less than a car load, starting from any 
 
 21 point on said road, to be carried to its eastern or west- 
 
 22 ern terminus, or starting from either terminus, to be de- 
 
 23 livered at any one point on said road. 
 
 1 Section III. The said railroad company shall agree to 
 
 2 apply its earnings derived from said traffic as follows : 
 
 3 First. — To pay to the Commissioners of the Canal 
 
 4 Fund as and for a dividend on the one million dollars 
 
 5 worth of stock, to be transferred to said Commissioners 
 
 6 as specified in Section 1 of this act, five per cent, semi- 
 
5 
 
 7 annually on the par value of said stock ; said dividends 
 
 8 to commence from and after the time the work contem- 
 
 9 plated in this act shall be completed between Buffalo 
 
 10 and Albany. 
 
 11 Second.— To keep all the structures, roadways tele- 
 
 12 graphs and other fixtures to be constructed as aforesaid, 
 
 13 in good order and repair. 
 
 14 Third.— To the payment of all the operating expenses 
 
 15 of the company under the contract mentioned in this act. 
 
 16 Fourth.*— Ho the payment of all interest which may be 
 
 17 due upon the bonds of the said road and the dividends 
 
 18 on the stock not exceeding five per cent, semi-annually, 
 
 19 and all surplus income shall be paid annually to the 
 
 20 Commissioners of the Canal Fund, who are hereby au- 
 
 21 thorized, empowered and directed annually to appro - 
 
 22 priate the same as follows, that is to say: One-half 
 
 23 thereof, in whole or in part, towards the reduction of the 
 
 24 principal of the canal debt of the State, or, in the dis- 
 
 25 cretion of said Commissioners, in whole or in part, to- 
 
 26 wards the reduction of the tolls on the said canals ; and 
 
 27 the other half of said surplus income shall be annually 
 
 28 appropriated towards the sinking fund hereby author- 
 
 29 ized and directed to be created by said Commissioners 
 
 30 from the said one million dollars worth of stock and its 
 
 31 accumulation, as in this act provided for. The disposi- 
 
 32 tion of said surplus income, as in this act specified, shall 
 
 33 so continue until all the bonds and stock of the said 
 
 34 railroad company shall be vested in the Commissioners 
 
 35 of the Canal Fund as and for the property of the State ; 
 
6 
 
 86 and w hen all the bonds atnd stock of said railroad com- 
 
 37 pany shall have been purchased as aforesaid, the whole 
 
 38 of said surplus income shall be appropriated for the or- 
 
 39 dinary expenses of management and repair of the said 
 
 40 canals, unless the Legislature shall otherwise direct. 
 
 41 The said Commissioners shall receive all interest which 
 
 42 shall accrue on the bonds and all dividends which shall 
 
 43 be declared on the stock in their hands, and shall use 
 
 44 such interest and dividends to purchase other bonds and 
 
 45 stock of the said company at a price not exceeding one 
 
 46 hundred and thirty dollars on each one hundred dollars 
 
 47 of the bonds of said railroad company at their par 
 
 48 value, and one hundred and fifty dollars on each one 
 
 49 hundred dollars of said stock at its par value; and no 
 
 50 stock or bonds shall be issued by the said company after 
 
 51 making said contract, except the said stock or bonds be 
 
 52 subject to the foregoing conditions, and the persons to 
 
 53 whom the same shall be issued, as well as the present 
 
 54 owners of such stock and bonds, shall in writing express 
 
 55 their assent thereto and agree to sell the same to the 
 
 56 said Commissioners on demand at the above mentioned 
 
 57 prices. And in and by said contract the said railroad 
 
 58 company shall expressly agree to each and all the fore- 
 
 59 going provisions. 
 
 1 Section IV.— Whenever the said Commissioners shall 
 
 2 have In their hands a sufficient and proper amount of 
 
 3 the sinking fund herein provided for, for investment, 
 
 4 they shall give public notice by advertisement to be in- 
 
 5 serted daily for at least fifteen days in at least two daily 
 
 6 newspapers published in the City of New York of their 
 
? 
 
 7 intention to invest, specifying the amount, and inviting 
 
 8 proposals for stock or bonds of the said railroad com- 
 
 9 pany, the lowest of which proposals shall be accepted, 
 
 10 provided the same shall be below the sums hereinbefore 
 
 11 specified. 
 
 12 In case adequate proposals shall not be received, the 
 
 13 said Commissioners shall demand and purchase stock or 
 
 14 bonds, as herein otherwise provided for. 
 
 • 
 
 1 Section V.— The contract by this act authorized shall 
 
 2 in terms continue until the entire interest and ownership 
 
 3 of the said railroad company shall be and become vested 
 
 4 in the State as hereinbefore provided for, and shall in- 
 
 5 elude the reciprocal terms and provisions in this act spe- 
 
 6 cified, and such other reasonable agreements and condi- 
 
 7 tions for the better carrying out of the intents and pur- 
 
 8 poses of this act, as the Superintendent of Public Works 
 
 9 and Land Commissioners on behalf of the State and said 
 
 10 company may agree to, together with a provision that 
 
 11 the system of towage hereby authorized shall be subject 
 
 12 to the rules and regulations prescribed by the Superin- 
 
 13 tendent of Public Works for the navigation and use of 
 
 14 the canals ; and also a provision that in case the said 
 
 15 railroad company, its successors or assigns, shall neglect 
 
 16 or fail to introduce said system of towage on the Erie 
 
 17 and Oswego canals, between the Hudson river and the 
 
 18 cities of Buffalo and Oswego, within three years, unless 
 
 19 prevented by legal proceedings, after the contract au- 
 
 20 thorized by this act shall have been made, then said 
 
 21 contract, at the option of the Superintendent of Public 
 
8 
 
 22 Works and Land Commissioners on behalf of the State, 
 
 23 shall cease and determine. 
 
 1 Section VI.— The Superintendent of Public Works 
 
 2 is hereby charged with the execution of this act con- 
 
 3 cerning the navigation and improvement of the canals 
 
 4 as herein contemplated, and the other State officers re- 
 
 5 ferred to herein are required to do every act and thing 
 
 6 necessary to carry into effect the provisions of this act 
 
 7 wherever the same refers to them. 
 
 • 
 
 1 Section VII. — This act shall take effect immediately. 
 
 Mr. Crane said he appeared on behalf of the Buffalo, Syra- 
 cuse and Albany Railroad, but should be glad before proceed- 
 ing to make any remarks to know if there were any who wished 
 to be heard in opposition or in favor of the bill, and also the 
 length of time that the committee would set apart for hearing. 
 He said he would prefer to state his part of the case continu- 
 ously, and if not finished to-day, to go on to-morrow. It would 
 take them till then to accomplish their part of the case. 
 
 The Chairman stated that, so far as he knew, they would be 
 able to go on to-morrow, if necessary, and that the hearing 
 would be set down to-morrow for the afternoon, the same as 
 to-day. This evening the committee would hold session till 
 tea-time. 
 
 Mr. Crane then proceeded with his argument, as follows : 
 
 This bill, gentlemen, that you have before you, is one, prob- 
 ably, of greater importance in its effect upon the present lines of 
 communication, than arfy other bill offered or introduced into 
 the Assembly since the enlargement of the Erie Canal; and if it 
 operates as we expect, it will produce a greater revolution in 
 transportation than that enlargement produced. It is a matter 
 of great import. It affects capital now invested to an extent, 
 probably, that very few, if any, of you are aware of. It affects 
 
9 
 
 the interests of the people of your own State, and of the whole 
 Northwest, both now and hereafter, probably, more than any 
 other question that has been considered within the last thirty 
 years in your Assembly. Therefore, I beseech for it a careful 
 and candid consideration. We have no axe to grind. The bill 
 is either what it purports to be on its face, and what we be- 
 lieve it to be in reality — one of great public moment, one of 
 great public interest — or it is nothing. 
 
 I desire, in opening this case, to request that, if there are 
 any statements made here which are not proved or are loose, 
 the members of this committee will call the parties' atten- 
 tion to it, and not allow one step to be taken until the facts 
 are verified by incontrovertible evidence. In order that you 
 may understand the interests which are to be affected by 
 this bill, I wish you to go with me first to Baltimore — a 
 Southern city that owns and controls a line of railroad that is 
 affecting to-day New York city and the other seaboard cities 
 more than any other interests between the East and the West. 
 The merchants of Baltimore since 1832 up to 1877 have had 
 but one policy — that is Baltimore. What has been the re- 
 sult ? Baltimore controls its line of railway, and dictates its 
 policy as a city over a distance of about 840 miles, to a point of 
 competition lying west of you, to Chicago ; and while you have 
 been laying your four tracks in New York and taking care of 
 your canals, that city, as a city, has been extending its lines of 
 railroad, and when a few years ago it opened its line to Chicago, 
 what took place i 
 
 Commodore Yanderbilt, the great railroad king, invited Mr. 
 Garrett, from Baltimore, together with Mr. Scott of the Phila- 
 delphia line, and Mr. Jewett of the Erie, to meet him in New 
 York. The public prints in New York are my authority for the 
 statement that Yanderbilt invited those gentlemen to confer 
 with him in New York upon this question of railroad transpor- 
 tation. Garrett replied in a short note published in the New 
 York Times : 
 
 1 'The distance is no greater from New York to Baltimore 
 than from Baltimore to New York. I shall be pleased to see 
 the gentlemen in Baltimore. 
 
 ' 4 Respectfully yours, 
 
 " Garrett." 
 
10 ' 
 
 t 
 
 Then and there, for the first time, was this power made mani- 
 fest to probably one of the greatest powers in railroading on 
 this continent, Vanderbilt the elder. Did he go to Baltimore i 
 Yes, sir. What sent him there * Because a power existed there 
 which he had failed to appreciate. One or two days after, the 
 same paper says, a drawing-room car left Jersey City, with Mr. 
 Jewett, the Commodore, and Mr. Scott on board, going by ex- 
 press to^altimore. The Commodore said, "We are now fight- 
 ing and contending for business, and what is the use of cutting 
 and thrusting at each other, when we have nothing to do but to 
 agree among ourselves in regard to rates and'come to some ar- 
 rangement, reduce it to writing, and act by it." This was done, 
 and the great Scott and Jewett and the Commodore agreed to 
 it, but Mr. Garrett says, " Ail right ; hold on a minute ; your 
 lines are longer to the seaboard from Chicago than ours is to 
 Baltimore, and for that reason I want five cents a hundred 
 pounds on all freight coming to the seaboard less to Baltimore 
 than to New York.' , The # Commodore said, "We can't go 
 that." The reply was, " Then we may as well stop all negotia- 
 tion." How was it settled I It left the little bit of corporation 
 of "Baltimore and Ohio," controlled by Baltimore, masters of 
 the situation, and they have been masters of it until the present. 
 Your railroad companies, ever since the Commodore's death, 
 have made this allowance of five cents a hundred to the Balti- 
 more and Ohio Railroad, and the same combination made the 
 arrangement by which Philadelphia was to have her freight at 
 three cents a hundred less than New York city. 
 
 (This agreement, the Speaker stated, Wm. H. Vanderbilt en- 
 tered into to prevent a railroad war of extermination, as the 
 New Y^ork Central could not be expected to fight the battle in 
 that way.) 
 
 Baltimore has a line of railroad, costing substantially 
 $86,000,000, from Baltimore to Chicago. On $36,000,000 of this 
 they pay no interest. That is the cheapest kind of money to 
 build railroads with ; you can get nothing cheaper than that. 
 They pay no interest on their $36,000,000, because the money 
 came from the earnings of the road over and above the dividends 
 paid on the stock since 1861. You must keep this in mind in 
 order to understand whether New York can be made the cheap- 
 est point instead of the third in rank from the West to the sea- 
 
11 
 
 board. The remaining part of the capital of the Baltimore rail- 
 road, $50,000,000, is about the amount on which they have to pay 
 interest. Then the Cumberland Mountains, having 120 feet 
 up-grade, going West — a crooked road — has this compensation 
 that, coal on board their locomotives costs them about 90 cents 
 a ton ; and coal, water and locomotives will overcome moun- 
 tains. 
 
 The Pennsylvania line, which holds the next point Against 
 your city, has, by combination, cheaper rates of freight to-day 
 than New York, both on that coming East and that going West. 
 Philadelphia, like Baltimore, was the originator of its own 
 road, furnishing a large portion of the money to build it, and 
 largely influences its policy. If you will look at the grain 
 shipments from Philadelphia, and the business coming from the 
 West to the seaboard for the last three years, you will see the 
 effect of this combination as regard your own State. That line 
 of railroad, crossing the Alleghany Mountain with its 90 feet 
 grades, has not only run to Philadelphia, but ic has absorbed 
 the lines of railroad across the State of New Jersey, and has 
 made New York city connections, and reaches their steamers 
 at Philadelphia by three cents a hundred less than New York. 
 The cost of their line of railroad is about 180 odd million dollars, 
 running to the same point the Baltimore and Ohio road reaches 
 at a cost of only $86,000,000. If you follow the same combina- 
 tion to Buffalo, at the foot of Lake Erie, you will find what I 
 found three years ago. Merchants care precious little whether 
 the in-freight goes to New York or not, as long as they get it 
 shipped on board the steamer three cents a hundred cheaper. 
 
 New York, your metropolis, neither owns nor controls a line 
 of railroad, yet your great trunk line, the New York Cen- 
 tral, with comparatively no grade to overcome, has posses- 
 sion of the only natural highway from the seaboard to the West. 
 You have 890,000,000, as appears by the last annual report 
 of the New York Central, of capital stock, and you have in 
 addition a bonded debt of $40,000,000, and you have the 
 Harlem railroad, with its capital of about 23 millions, leased 
 in perpetuity at 8 per cent. 
 
 On the other hand, your great line of the Erie has passed 
 through divers ramifications till it stands now with one consol- 
 idated mortgage of 60 millions, and a capital stock of about 6o 
 
12 
 
 millions more, a majority of which is held in London, where its 
 policy is dictated. If yon go west of Buffalo and make the 
 line complete, where you reach the point of competition with 
 Philadelphia and Baltimore, you have the Lake Shore rail- 
 road, on which there is a consolidated mortgage of $50,000,000, 
 and a capital stock, on which occasionally a dividend is paid 
 of $50,000,000 more, making an aggregate of capital by the 
 Shore Re of about $220,000,000, as against Baltimore's 
 $86,000,000. The Erie railroad, with its connections on the 
 south side of the lake, is now combining with the Atlantic 
 and Great Western. It is very important for you to under- 
 stand what interests control these two great railroads. Wm. H. 
 Vanderbilt controls the first, the second is controlled by the 
 syndicate which sits in London, where the majority of all the 
 stock of the Erie railroad has been transferred. For 
 that stock they have issued certificates, but those cer- 
 tificates have no right to vote. It is London which 
 makes and remakes the management through your own 
 State of the line, which the State contributed three mil- 
 lions to build. In addition to the ownership on the 
 south side of the lake, Vanderbilt owns the Canada Southern 
 Railroad, extending to Detroit, probably the best graded line 
 in the country. I have examined it. It lies in long straight 
 lines with easy grades. Locomotives are capable of taking forty 
 freight cars on it from the Detroit river to the city of Buffalo. 
 That line was built to form a continuous line with one to be built 
 across Michigan to Chicago, which failed in 1873 during the panic. 
 It was never carried out. The road failed, and is now owned by 
 the one man who owns your New York Central. That interest, 
 in order to protect itself on both sides of the lake, owns and 
 controls a majority of the road from Detroit to Chicago. Take 
 the capital of the Michigan Central, as printed in the reports 
 (a majority held by Vanderbilt), with that of the Canada 
 Southern, and add to them the extension to Detroit, and you 
 have a capital for the line running through Canada, connecting 
 your New York Central with Chicago, of about $200,000,000, 
 on which interest has to be paid, as against Baltimore's 
 $50,000,000. 
 
 Next there is the Grand Trunk Railroad, of Canada, extending 
 from Chicago to Quebec, which built the international bridge at 
 Buffalo, thus giving it a connection with the lines of railroads 
 
13 
 
 through your State. That line and the Great Western of Canada 
 are owned and controlled in London. That and the Grand Trunk 
 have been made comparatively worthless, growing out of com- 
 petition, but although longer lines to the seaboard than either 
 of the others, they, like Baltimore, dictate terms to all the others. 
 These are the powers you have as dividend-paying roads to deal 
 with to-day. The Erie railroad and the New York Central rail- 
 road, through the London interests, harmonize every tim# And 
 they harmonize for what ? Because it is for their interest to do 
 so. They do not consult the business interests of New York. 
 Capital consults its own interest every time, and it is just as 
 natural for it to do so as it is for water to run down hill. I do 
 not blame them for doing so. I am not raising these questions 
 with a spirit of fault-finding, but in order that you may under- 
 stand exactly what the power is you have to deal with. I 
 mean to say that the Erie railroad, through the London syndi- 
 cate and the one-man power at New York, are a unit in action 
 every time when occasion calls for it. Next to that, your New 
 York combination is in harmony every time with what Phila- 
 delphia wants, because the Pennsylvania Central has an in- 
 terest account rolling up on four thousand miles of leased 
 railroads that has made for Philadelphia such a power, both in 
 Congress and out of Congress, that it was fitly illustrated less 
 than two years ago by a member in the Pennsylvania Legis- 
 lature rising in his seat and saying, "I move that a com- 
 mittee be appointed to wait upon Tom Scott and ask if he has 
 any further business, to say so, and if not, we will adjourn." 
 
 That line of railroad to-day, with its 4,000 miles of leased 
 lines, is like a great tree taking root on the banks of the 
 Delaware and extending its branches to Texas. It is a tre- 
 mendous power, which w,ill break down almost any man who 
 undertakes to give it his constant, daily care. It broke down 
 Mr. Scott, and sent him to England to recruit. 
 
 In 1869 I had occasion to investigate your canal, and I want 
 to say here that I have watched the Erie canal with an interest 
 second to that which I have taken in no public work on this 
 continent. I have looked upon it as a 'great bulwark against 
 the land sharks growing up among you. In 1868 I was invited 
 by a majority of the Senate of Massachusetts, as a railroad man 
 of large experience, to address the Legislature on the question 
 
14 
 
 of transportation. We had three separate meetings. I made 
 these remarks, which were then at variance with all precon- 
 ceived notions of canal and railroad men, with the exception of 
 a former superintendent of a Pennsylvania railroad line. I 
 said : " Gentlemen, a line of railroad such as Boston has from 
 Albany, passing the summit of the Green Mountains, 1,475 feet 
 above the tide, between the Hudson and the Connecticut, and 
 a sumn^t of 840 feet between the Connecticut and tide-water to 
 Boston, passing these two summits with a double track from 
 Albany, at eight miles an hour going East and twelve miles 
 an hour going West, can move the whole tonnage of the Erie 
 canal as cheaply as that canal can move it per ton per mile 
 from Buffalo to Albany." This statement was called in ques- 
 tion then by railroad men, by the president of the road, Mr. 
 Chapin, and by your own Mr. William J. McAlpine, former 
 State Engineer of the State of New York. 
 
 I then said, "This transportation question is one affecting 
 $700,000,000 of your annual .manufacturing interests in the 
 State of Massachusetts, and your true interest lies to ally 
 yourselves with the canal at Albany, both offensive and defen- 
 sive, to reduce the rates. As the result of ibe statement, I 
 recommended that inasmuch as it was not expected chat the 
 Legislature, meeting two or three months in the year, should 
 settle these great questions ; that they should appoint five 
 discreet men and leave it with them to settle what legislation 
 was necessary to secure to the people cheap transportation, and 
 that nothing should be done until their^report was made. The 
 recommendation was passed by a unanimous vote. The com- 
 mission of five was appointed ; they were to receive no 
 pay for their services. That commission made its report in 
 1870, and a copy of it was sent to. your State Engineer. 
 What was the cost of canal transportation — the actual cost ? 
 We got at it in this way. It is susceptible of but one answer. 
 Taking the cost of your canal transportation for ten consecutive 
 years, commencing with 1857, from the annual reports as shown 
 by your Comptroller's books — first, there were the expenses to 
 lock- tenders for taking care of the locks, and for ordinary and 
 extraordinary repairs. This, for ten years, amounted to 
 $480,000 a year. I asked Mr. McAlpine if the State of New 
 York could, from 1868 to 1878, maintain and keep the canal in 
 repair for the same average cost as for the previous ten years, 
 
15 
 
 and he said ' 'Yes." $480,000 a year, then, it is shown, can 
 maintain and keep the canals in repair. Suppose the State of 
 New York takes off all the tolls, can the railroads compete with 
 the canal then ; will the diminishing of the tolls make it more 
 profitable to the boatmen \ The cost of moving the freight 
 from Albany to Boston, cars going loaded one way and empty 
 the other, moving the same number of tons that was moved 
 on the Erie Canal, eight miles an hour going East and twelve 
 miles going West, would be 3| mills per ton a mile. Your canals 
 cost, irrespective of repairs, about 5 mills a ton a mile, going 
 loaded one way and empty the other. Therefore, the Central 
 railroad from Albany to Buffalo can move the whole tonnage of 
 the Erie Canal without profit or loss, at over 30 per cent, less 
 than you can through the Erie Canal in its present manage- 
 ment. The cost of repair per year, if my memory serves me 
 aright, averages about $480,000 ; it averaged that from 1857 to 
 1868. What will it now cost, with the water in the canal and 
 ,all the expenditures made, to move 500,000 tons of freight 
 from Buffalo to Albany, exclusive of loading and unloading ? 
 First, there is the interest on cost of the boat, and the annual cost 
 of keeping it in repair. How long, with the annual repairs care- 
 fully made, 4 will that boat last? We say it will last 10 or 11 
 years. One- tenth ot the life of the boat must be charged, then, 
 to each year's business. Another item is the labor on the boat, 
 that is to say, the labor of the captain, the men, the horses, etc. 
 
 If you wish to ascertain how much freight costs you where you 
 have full loads always in one direction only, that is the way 
 and the only way to make up the account. T found there were 
 a certain number of boats making trips for the last ten years ; 
 the boats make so many trips; the actual cost of each is so much 
 money, and so many boats move 500,000 tons of freight, and 
 that 500,000 tons of freight must be charged with all the expenses 
 of the canal. The next question is, what will it now cost to 
 move a second 500,000 tons of freight from Buffalo to Albany 
 the same season, shoeing the horses, putting the boat in good 
 condition, etc. It will cost you the same as the first instance, 
 less the amount paid the State for Canal expenses. What 
 will the third 500,000 tons cost you? It will cost you just 
 the same as the last — all of which holds true until the limit is 
 reached at which the State incurs additional expenses on 
 account of increased business. There is no more mistake about 
 
16 
 
 this than there is about the statement that two and two make 
 four. It is the actual statement of the facts as appears from 
 your own books. 
 
 I here take up the cost of railroad freight. You will say that 
 no two railroad men would agree with you in that. I admit it ; 
 but every railroadman will agree upon this— that, independent 
 of the tolls, if the State were to lay out, to keep the canal in 
 repair $480,000 a year, the cost of moving freight from Buffalo 
 to Albany is within a fraction of 5 mills per ton per mile, if 
 you go back empty ; and just in proportion as you get a return 
 freight, so you will diminish the cost. Just so it is with the rail- 
 road. What are the charges of the railroad i What does it 
 cost in that way % The cost of the New York Central from 
 Buffalo to Albany, for freight, as compared with the canal, is 
 first three hundred miles of rotten ties once in seven years on 
 the four tracks ; one-seventh of this is to be put upon each 
 year' s business ; it has also to build a new fence from here to 
 Buffalo every ten years ; it has the renewal of all the cross- 
 ings from Buffalo to Albany once in about five years ; in 
 addition to that there is the cost of removing the snow from 
 the tracks, which varies, as some years you have it and some 
 years you have it not; then there are rotten platforms and rotten 
 depots to be rebuilt. These amounts can now be made a matter 
 of mathematical certainty after an experience of thirty years, and 
 the railroad man who doubts that fact must be ignorant of his 
 business. These are costs that are to be incurred before you put 
 a railroad car into the account. Then come your cars and locomo- 
 tives; then the labor and everything connected with it; but the 
 greatest question of all is the question of speed. 
 
 If you run your trains laden with freight at a high rate of 
 speed, why then you must foot the bills. About twenty years 
 ago the Beading Railroad sold for $8 to $9 a share; their notes 
 went to protest; and the brokers who put the stock on the mar- 
 ket, although wealthy men, were almost mobbed by the people 
 because they put what was then thought to be worthless stock 
 upon the market to take the place of money. W T here was the 
 trouble ? Why, the Reading road were running their coal trains 
 at a rate of speed ranging from twenty to twenty-five miles an 
 hour. That was what was ruining the road. The engineer, 
 who was in favor of the canal in preference to the railroad, 
 
17 
 
 made it perfectly plain to our people that the railroad was 
 worthless. When I came to investigate the question of doing 
 business with high speed, I found the t wear and tear in 
 consequence would eat up all the earnings. Since that 
 time, having reduced the speed to eight miles per hour, they 
 have been enabled to pay 5 per cent, dividends semi-annually 
 on the par value of this same stock. Take your own line from 
 here to Buffalo — your canal working at the rate of 1£ miles an 
 hour, for instance — a railroad man comes along and says, "I 
 will move it at the rate of 20 miles an hour." " Yes," we say, 
 " but what will it cost you ? If you move it 20 miles an hour 
 you must pay the bills." 
 
 • In 1873 I was going to Buffalo on an express train from 
 Syracuse. I was sitting in the drawing-room car with a gentle- 
 man, and* we passed freight trains coining at the rate of thirty 
 miles an hour— four trains consecutively, coming one right 
 after the other. I remarked to my friend, "There is not one 
 ton of freight on those trains which we have just passed for 
 which the railroad will get a new dollar for an old one, because 
 the rates of speed will devour all the earnings ; and if the Cen- 
 tral railroad does its business in that way, it will fail." The 
 next morning, in Buffalo, on taking up the paper, my eye 
 glanced upon an accident upon the New York Central. 
 
 One freight train passing a bridge broke its axle ; before it 
 had time to right itself, another train came up and gave it a 
 boost, sending it into the river ; a third train came upon the 
 second and treated it likewise. This was simply because they 
 put 350 tons of cars and 350 tons of freight with fifty tons of a 
 locomotive at a speed which they could not control. 
 
 Is there any way in which the State of New York can lessen 
 canal transportation so that it will be cheaper than railroad 
 transportation during times of navigation. First, it was at- 
 tempted to put steam upon each boat, but that has been 
 abandoned ; the next question was, can steam tugs be used 
 in towing your boats % This was shown to be dearer than 
 horses. The next question was, if you owned the canal, 
 what would you do with it ? That is the present question. 
 I answer it by saying, I would grade the canal banks, grade 
 at the locks, and then -lay a railroad track upon each side 
 of the canal from Buffalo to Albany, from thence continu- 
 ing along the west bank of the Hudson river to New York. 
 
18 
 
 When done, I would take a locomotive, in charge of one man, 
 and connect it with five boats carrying 1,200 tons of freight, 
 and take the fleet from Buffalo to Albany. What would it 
 cost ? I found if I had no interest to pay upon my tracks, if I 
 was allowed to furnish my own locomotives, the labor and wear 
 and tear, etc., would cost about thirty cents a mile for five 
 boats, carrying about 1,200 tons of freight, and no iailroad 
 could ever be constructed to do it so cheaply. If you lay 
 your rails to draw boats, and put on the locomotives to 
 do that work, then why not lay other tracks? What 
 would it cost to fix the road and make the railroad ulti- 
 mately a free road to the people — to be owned by the State of 
 New York? I came to the conclusion that if you should 
 duplicate your cars with lightness and strength combined, 
 there is no railroad in this country, running through such 
 a section as from Buffalo to New York, which could carry 
 freight at so small cost, and with so easy grades as that 
 would show. And I said the people own it now, and why 
 should they not forever? It will interfere with nobody; it 
 will pull nobody down. It is like a man about to build a 
 factory, who meets another having a loom capable of making 
 cotton a cent a yard cheaper than by the old form ; would not 
 the manufacturer at once adopt the loom as the best one ? would 
 he not be stupid to refuse it ? Then why not act on the same 
 principle with regard to the canal ? Your Constitution prevents 
 the State from borrowing money and doing for the people what 
 ought to be done by the people themselves. Our organization 
 proposes to do that — lay the tracks, put up the machine shops, 
 put on the locomotives — after which it proposes to make the 
 entire road the property of the State. The railroad company, 
 from its earnings, are to keep it in repair. They are to create 
 a sinking fund from which they will in ten years make it refund 
 every dollar it has cost the corporation, with premiums, etc. 
 At this point I wish to call the attention of the committee to a 
 witness. I wish to show the feasibility of this plan by your 
 Canal Commissioners, and then place it in such a way that the 
 public are protected in every particular. I wish to put this bill 
 in such a form as shall accomplish these ends safely. I will 
 be glad now, without going further, to ask Mr. Barclay a few 
 questions. 
 
 Mr. Crane asked Mr. Barclay the following questions : 
 
 f 
 
19 
 
 Q. Have you had any experience in canal transportation in 
 past years ? 
 A. Yes, sir ; I think so. 
 Q. What has your experience been ? 
 
 A. I have had an experience in towing boats by steam on the 
 short line in the harbor of Whitehall. I procured an engine. 
 
 Q. I think you don't, understand my question. How long 
 have you been connected with the Erie Canal ? 
 
 A. A number of years ; a Commissioner of the State for three 
 years. 
 
 Q. Have you had any experience with towing by steam tugs 
 on the canal % 
 A. Yes, sir, 
 
 Q. State what it has been, what you found it ? 
 
 A. It is entirely impracticable, for the reason that the steam 
 tug will only tow two or three boats, and the wheel has a tenden- 
 cy to tear up the bottom of the canal. If you have three boats 
 and a tug you have a loss in regard to lockage — the lockage of 
 one boat on the whole trip and the carrying capacity of one boat — 
 which would deduct about one-fourth from the freight. 
 
 Q. What is your experience and knowledge with regard to 
 the use of steam upon the boat itself 1 
 
 A. It is liable to the similar objection ; one-fifth of the carry- 
 ing capacity of the boat will be required to carry the machinery 
 and fuel, and you would, with one-fifth deduction for that, have 
 to make five trips to get as much freight as with four trips if 
 you had the whole carrying capacity for freight. 
 
 Q. Have you had any experience about the Stevens system • 
 
 A. I do not know about it, but it would be open to the same 
 objection as the other. The boat would have to carry more or 
 less machinery and fuel. 
 
 Q. What is your opinion as to the best method of applying 
 steam on the canal ? 
 
 A. My opinion is, that putting steam on the tow-path is the 
 most practicable and cheapest way of towing by steam, for that 
 secures you your whole carrying capacity on the canal, and 
 your whole propelling power on the tow-path. 
 
 Q. Did you ever make any experiments in relation to that 
 while you were Canal Commissioner % 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; in Whitehall Harbor, on a slip 1,000 feet long, 
 we had a locomotive engine hitched to two boats loads of ore, 
 
20 
 
 and a steam tug at the other end. We ran one-eight of a mile 
 at the rate of four miles an hour. 
 
 By the Chairman. — You did not meet with any boats in try- 
 ing the experiment ? 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you go through any locks ? 
 
 A. No, sir ; I could not get any place but this, with a rail- 
 road track ? 
 Q. What depth of water was there ? 
 A. Eight or nine feet. 
 
 Q. Isn't that rather deeper than the canal ? 
 A. Yes, sir; we tried .another experiment between Troy and 
 Albany % 
 
 Q. When was 'this \ 
 
 A. In the fall of 1872 ; we towed two boat loads of lumber 
 from West Troy to Albany with a steam wagon brought from 
 New Jersey, in If hours, a distance of six miles ; the line broke. 
 
 By Mr. Crane.— What was the power of the steam wagon ? 
 
 A. I do not know ; it would snatch a boat up and tow at the 
 rate of three or four miles an hour ; it was a large engine with 
 three wheels a foot wide. 
 
 By the Chairman. — Did you draw the boat from Troy to 
 Albany 1 
 
 A. Two heavily laden boats in If hours for a distance of six 
 miles. 
 
 Q. How heavy was the boat load 3 
 
 A. I suppose 240 tons ; the engine was powerful, and the 
 lines would not hold ; we didn't provide her with a sufficient 
 line ; we could, had we done so, have come down at the rate of 
 four miles an hour. 
 
 By Mr. Sheard. — You would get up a good deal of momen- 
 tum or headway at that rate, would you not \ 
 
 A. No, sir ; not very much ; not near as much as the light 
 boat would. 
 
 Q. Could you tow, on an average, four miles an hour that 
 way % 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How much water did the boats draw % 
 
21 
 
 A. Six feet. 
 
 Q. How much leeway was there between the bottom of the 
 boat and the bottom of the oanal ? 
 
 A. About a foot ; it would give that average on the Erie 
 Canal. 
 
 Q. With that leeway you could run four miles an hour and 
 not strike the bottom % 
 
 A. From 3£ to 4 miles an hour we could. 
 
 Q. The depth in the places were the experiment was tried 
 was about 8 feet % 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; in Whitehall Harbor it was. 
 
 Q. It is less than that on the Erie Canal ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; I recommended the Legislature to make a small 
 appropriation to lay the track down between Albany and West 
 Troy to experiment on, and as there was a great many applica- 
 tions for new improvements. 
 
 By the Chairman. — Do you think there would be any diffi- 
 culty experienced in getting boats through the locks ; they 
 would be obliged to wait some time, would they not, for you 
 can only lock through one boat at a time % 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; you would be obliged to wait a little. 
 
 Q. How much for a boat % 
 
 A. Four to five minutes. 
 
 Q. Doesn't it take fifteen minutes sometimes \ 
 A. Not if properly managed. 
 Q. Doesn' t it take that now % 
 
 A. I don't know; I have locked boats in three minutes, fre- 
 quently ; you have double locks, and put a short line on the 
 forward line and a long line on the other side, and then you can 
 manage it. 
 
 Q. Suppose you were to lock down % 
 
 A. The same rule applies. 
 
 Q. Would you pull a boat with a line attached to the boat 
 going out ; can you draw a boat coming in by a boat going 
 out? 
 
 A. There would be no trouble at all in that. 
 Q. Would it not be apt to break the line % 
 A. Your towing line should be of steel wire. 
 Q. Would that be flexible enough % 
 A. Yes, sir ; gust as well as a hemp rope. 
 
22 
 
 By Mr.. Crane, — Is your report in print ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What year was it ! 
 
 A. In 1872. 
 
 The extract from the report was here read by the Clerk as fol- 
 lows : 
 
 "I believe the time has come when some method should be 
 devised for towing boats by steam. The large increase of ton- 
 nage on our canals, together with the late horse epidemic, ad- 
 monishes us that propelling boats by horse power can no longer 
 be depended upon. There is no doubt steam can be' applied to 
 the towing of boats in many ways, but which of these is the best 
 is a problem yet to be solved. The plan known as the Belgium 
 system is thought to be practicable, but of it I have no knowl- 
 -edge. The method of having the propelling power in the same 
 boat that carries|freight is, in my opinion, open to serious objec- 
 tions ; at least 20 percent, of the capacity for carrying freight is 
 iost, which would be equal to a loss of one round trip daring the 
 season of navigation. Besides, the wheel of the propeller is lia- 
 ble to tear out slope- walls, which would fall in the bottom of the 
 canal, making it dangerous [for loaded boats to pass over, and 
 the wheels would create swells, which would be very injurious 
 to the banks of the canal. The plan of towing a fleet of boats 
 by a steam tug is also objectionable. The propeller of all these 
 tugs or boats would more or less injure the bottom of the slope- 
 walls, and create swells which would be injurious to the banks; 
 besides, a boat with her machinery and fuel on board will re- 
 quire 20 per cent, of her propelling power for her own propul- 
 sion, and the slip of the wheel (which is a considerable loss of 
 power) leaves less than eighty per cent, to be used in propel- 
 ling freight. Again, a tug could tow but four boats, and at a 
 rate not exceedingLf rom two to two and one-half miles per hour. 
 Another objection to applying steam in this manner is, that the 
 tugs have to be locked through the same as boats loaded with 
 freight, and for every four loads of freight, there would be an 
 extra ' lockage (or one-fifth more lockages than now), which, 
 from Buffalo to Albany, would at least consume one day, les- 
 sening the business season one round trip, which should be 
 obviated, if possible. Then there would be one-fifth more wear 
 and tear to the locks, which would make a large additional ex- 
 pense in repairs. An experiment made during the past season 
 
23 
 
 at Whitehall (a report of which is hereto annexed by Mr. J. A. 
 Allen, civil engineer, who was present and assisted) has 
 strengthened my opinion that the propelling power should be 
 put upon the towing path. A light rail laid on long timber 
 lengthwise, bedded in the tow-path and tied together so it could 
 not spread, would be sufficient to carry a powerful engine with 
 low wheels. Such an engine would tow from eight to ten boats 
 from three to four miles an hour, thus giving the whole carry- 
 ing capacity of the canal to freight, with no extra lockage. A 
 track built in this way would not interfere with towing by 
 horse power, which could be used at such places as Little Falls, 
 Cohoes, etc. Difficulty might be apprehended where the tow- 
 ing path changes from one side of the canal to the other, but 
 this could be easily obviated by having a swing bridge with a 
 track upon it to run the engine from one side of the canal to 
 the other. Lowering the towing path slightly under the bridges 
 would enable the engines to pass under without difficulty. In 
 my opinion, the track should be built and the engines furnished 
 at the expense of the State, and towing charged and collected 
 at reasonable rates, the same as canal tolls. I think it is not 
 too much to say that the cost of raising and grading the towing 
 path, worn down by horses, together with removal of slope- 
 wall and other material drawn into the canal by tow lines and 
 tread in by horses, which has to be removed every year, would 
 in five years equal the cost of laying the track and furnishing 
 the engines. There is still another reason in favor of laying 
 this track. In case a large number of boats were frozen in, 
 by the use of a switch all the freight could be easily transferred 
 to the railways at a slight expense. I would respectfully re- 
 commend to the Legislature that part of the canal between 
 Albanyand West Troy be set apart for experimental trials of 
 any invention for propelling boats by steam, and that an ap- 
 propriation of $25,000 be made for testing the plan of propel- 
 ling by steam on the towing path, as above stated, and that said 
 appropriation be expended under the authority of the Canal 
 Commissioners." 
 
 Q. Would not the increased speed of this system over horse 
 power more than compensate for any delays at locks I 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; I think the trip could be made at about eleven 
 trips by the new system, instead of seven, as is now made. 
 
24 
 
 By the Chairman. — What would be the difficulty in meeting 
 other boats coming in other directions I 
 
 A. If the track were on both sides of the canal, there would 
 be no difficulty at all. 
 
 Q. With the present width of the canal, two boats passing, 
 moving at that rate stated, and loaded, the water would natu- 
 rally pile up and the boat would settle in the water, would there 
 be depth enough of water then ? 
 
 A. I never took that into account ; if there was any difficulty 
 of that kind, they could slow up when they came within a 
 quarter of a mile of each other ; I don't think there would be 
 any trouble in that direction ; you u can tow a boat in a fleet 
 with less power than separate. The forward boat creates a va- 
 cuum and the next boats drop into it, and all the boats appear 
 as though they were running down hill. 
 
 Q. Then you would not maintain your seven feet of water ; 
 there must be a very serious displacement of water in that 
 case ? 
 
 A. This water don't get into the vacuum till the other boat 
 follows it up ; the second boat don't displace so much waier. 
 
 Q. If it drops into the vacuum, it certainly displaces a por- 
 tion of water i 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; but not a large amount gets in before. 
 
 By Mr. Crane. — Would there be any trouble if the locomo- 
 tives were under the same superintendent, and had orders, when 
 at a certain distance, to pass each other at a certain safe rate of 
 speed, would there be any difficulty in executing such an or- 
 der 1 
 
 A. Nor a bit. 
 
 Q. The man who runs the locomotive has his orders about 
 slowing his speed when meeting another, at whatever speed is 
 necessary ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; if there is necessity for it. 
 
 By the Chairman.— The question I asked is merely to get at 
 the facts. 
 
 A. I am glad the question has been asked, for I never thought 
 of it, and there may be something in it. 
 
 Q. The problem is, cheap transportation bj' increased speed, 
 if vessels are obliged to slow down when meeting each other, 
 it would not be a very great increase ? 
 
25 
 
 A. Where boats come in fleets they would not meet often, 
 but if they came singly they would meet much oftener. 
 
 By Mr. Sheard. — Would it be necessary to go any slower 
 when you pass a boat in towing by steam or in towing by 
 horse ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 By Mr Crane. — In going back with a light loaded boat, is 
 there any difficulty in going a speed such as can be given by 
 three or four horses with perfect safety to the canal % 
 
 A. Not a bit. 
 
 Q. Three-fourths of the boats return empty or with very little 
 freight ; an hour saved in going back light loaded is just as 
 good as an hour saved to the boatman coming down, if he 
 makes a round trip, is it not ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. If he can diminish the cost as stated at ten cents, making- 
 eleven trips instead of seven, then the boatman has got some- 
 thing better than if you took all the tolls and gave him a free 
 canal ; do you concur in that view ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; there is a new system of canals in Canada being- 
 built so that vessels can take 2,000 tons of grain from Chicago 
 to London, and unless there is something done to lessen the 
 cost of transportation to New York through this canal, the 
 result will be that Montreal will be the great seaport of the 
 great West. 
 
 By the Chairman. — Have you seen those canals in Canada 
 personally ? 
 A. Yes, sir ; I have been there. 
 
 Q. There are one-half the number of locks qn the canals from 
 Buffalo to Albany J 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; in my calculation of eleven trips instead of 
 seven, I have included all the locks ; though I should not have 
 included more than fifty, I have made my calculation including 
 the weightage all the way from Troy, which ought not to have 
 been done. 
 
 Q. With that calculation, could you make eleven trips instead 
 of seven ? 
 A. Yes, sir ; eleven and a half. 
 
26 
 
 . Mr. Crane. — When I was in Lockport a year ago last fall, 
 Mr. Jackson asked how I would get through Lockport ; I 
 asked why not have hydraulic pressure applied there ; he said, 
 because we have always done this way. The most difficult 
 thing that I have met as a railroad man in drawing boats is in 
 the cost of draught ; boats will have to wait for water. There 
 is a point on your canal where they cross from Syracuse ; I 
 learned from Mr. Jarvis at Rome that the water has come in at 
 Rome to fill up this vacuum ; I asked if there was any trouble 
 in putting a guard to prevent it being done ; he said "no, but 
 it never has been done ;" but why has it not been done, it is 
 only because our father did so before us. 
 
 Q. Is there not plenty of water on the level between Syra- 
 cuse and Oswego river ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Could not an engine be put with a rotary pump to pump 
 the water in when necessary ? 
 
 A. It could be done, and this railroad company need not 
 have one week's delay in making such arrangements ; it is 
 practicable. 
 
 By the Chairman. — Don't you find the same difficulty in the 
 Montezuma level % 
 
 A. I have had nothing to do with it ; there has been a project 
 of deepening it there. 
 
 Q. Would you not find some difficulty in laying your tracks 
 through large cities % 
 
 A. 1 have examined the subject at Utica, Syracuse, Roches- 
 ter, and all the leading cities with a skillful engineer, and by 
 crossing from one side to the other, it can be done without 
 interruption ; you have got to cross the canal and use your 
 tracks for double tracks at certain places, and use your telegraph 
 wires, but there is not one point where it is not perfectly feasi- 
 ble to accomplish. 
 
 Q. Where and what is the longest space of distance where 
 you would have to cross and continue on one side of the 
 canal % 
 
 A. At Little Falls, for about one mile, we may have to put 
 all four tracks on one side ; but I am not prepared to say posi- 
 tively that we should have to do it ; I would want to take the 
 State Engineer and State Superintendent of Public Works, and 
 
27 
 
 with the best means at hand and the best talent, determine 
 what could be done, and put it on paper and bring results to the 
 Canal Board ; it could be done so cheaply that it is simply mar- 
 vellous that it has not been done before. 
 
 By the Chairman.— -How would you get by these distances? 
 A. By two tracks ; locomotives on the banks of the canal, 
 built to go either end foremost. 
 Q. Then you want turning tables | 
 
 A. No, sir ; the engines are built to go either end forward ; 
 they have them now of that kind in Colorado ; they are build- 
 ing them in Philadelphia ; there is no practical difficulty in the 
 way ; it is not such a line of railway as the Central, running at 
 thirty or forty miles an hour, but it is feasible and practicable ; 
 I didn't know before that Mr. Buckley had made any such 
 report as we have heard. 
 
 Mr. Buckley. — If we can lay those tracks down cheap and 
 tow our boats cheap and almost double our speed, we can com- 
 pete with the Canada canal. 
 
 Mr. Crane. — What I want to say is this, that the larger class 
 of vessels on Lake Erie from Buffalo to the West, where you 
 have got breadth of beam as well as depth of water, a vessel 
 from Buffalo to Chicago that will put its contents of 1,200 tons 
 on board of five canal boats can be worked so cheaply in this 
 way that we propose, and no railroad can be worked so cheaply 
 as from Chicago to New York City. We have all a deep inter- 
 est in the great water ways — all New England has an interest 
 in them. 
 
 By the Chairman. — What do you think it would cost by the 
 ton from Buffalo to Albany by this system of towage, taking 
 everything into consideration, say on the average of rowing 
 boats with a capacity of 100 tons % 
 
 Mr. Crane. — On the ocean between New York and Liverpool, 
 4 to 5,000 ton ships would be a mill a ton a mile. That will 
 support the vessel and no more. From Buffalo to Chicago it 
 takes two mills a to i per mile on just such vessels as navigate 
 the lakes to-day, without profit or loss. The next cheapest 
 system is a line of railway, such as the N. Y. Central, carrying 
 
28 
 
 large quantities of freight at a speed of eight miles ; 3^ mills 
 per ton per mile will keep it in repair without profit or loss. 
 Your canal as it is run now costs five mills a ton a mile, exclu- 
 sive of tolls. 
 
 In order to get at what the railroad costs as compared with 
 this system and the mule system, it is necessary to get at the 
 actual cost by each system. 
 
 Mr. Crane, Mr. McAlpin and myself worked it out in this 
 way. Assuming all the boats to carry 240 tons from Buffalo to 
 Albany, what will it cost boats of this capacity to do the work ? 
 Of course if your boats are of a less tonnage, it will cost you 
 more. The advantage in the value of the trade will give you a 
 new dollar for anold one, provided the State keeps the canals 
 in repair. Those statements ten years ago were called in ques- 
 tion, but what is the result ? Four boats on your canal go to 
 the dead-house for every living one put on. Why? Because 
 the boatmen make no money. I interrogated boatmen at Sche- 
 nectady, who came from Buffalo, in regard to the tonnage cost 
 of working the boat, time taken on the journey, amount of 
 money he made, and I found that the man, though he said he 
 had his wife and child to help him run the boat, he made no 
 money at the end of the year, the reason being that the rail- 
 road rates in summer ran him to the wall ; he had only a little 
 time in the fall when he could make any money. He estimated 
 the cost of the mules and boys at about 18 cents a mile down 
 and back. Another said it cost him 16 cents a mile down and 
 back, and the lowest amount I ever knew to be paid for this 
 was paid by a man who said he was brought up on the canal 
 himself, and who said he could get the work done for 13 cents 
 a mile. I asked him if he took into consideration the value of 
 his mules, and was told that he had none to begin on. 
 
 By the Chairman. — Suppose the boats going into a lock 
 should spring a leak, what would be the result according to 
 your system i 
 
 A . Why they would stop over one train and take the next. 
 
 Q. Suppose the boats were towed in a drydock, what then ? 
 
 A. They would tow them in and tow them out again — take 
 all the contingencies. If your Canal Commissioners acted right, 
 they would say to us. If you are going to do the work, you 
 must do it all, but when a boat gets to Albany we have nothing 
 to*do with it. 
 
29 
 
 Q. When he gets to Buffalo, how is it ? 
 
 A. We arrange with the tug-man to make up the trains with 
 every five boats, and we start night or day from the time navi- 
 gation opens until it closes. If we start from Buffalo, we will 
 see them through, or if we start from Syracuse, we will do the 
 same thing. 
 
 • 
 
 The Chairman. — You think that ten cents per mile is a fair 
 ratio between this system and the other one % 
 
 Mr. Crane. — We do for ten cents what it costs twenty cents 
 to do now. 
 
 The Chairman. — By the present system it costs $1.59 per ton 
 for moving freight from Buffalo to Albany ; by this new system 
 of towing, assuming 100 tons to the boat, it would cost 33 cents. 
 I want to ask you if that is a fair ratio between the two charges 
 in your opinion. 
 
 Mr. Crane. — There is not a boat going through your canal, 
 empty or loaded, small or big, that don't cost over 13 cents a 
 mile to draw it. If a man wants to make money by carrying 
 freight to Albany, and sees fit to carry 100 tons where he ought 
 to carry 240, he deserves to fail. 
 
 The Chairman. — You get the same pay for towing a heavy 
 boat as an empty one ? 
 
 Mr. Crane. — What is the effect of this? It is a terrible 
 thing. You are dealing with great problems with 10, with 100, 
 with 1,000 tons of freight. Will you block up your canal with 
 something that is going to destroy your business % Our object 
 is to make transportation so cheap that a man cannot afford to 
 put his horse on the canal. 
 
 Mr. Sheard. — Thirteen cents a boat a mile only covers the 
 cost of the mules and the boys — it has nothing to do with 
 the hands on the boat. It covers only the amount of mules, 
 horses and boys. You may turn around and see how many 
 boats there are and how many hands on the boats. If it 
 costs $4,000 a day to work them, what will it come to at ten 
 cents a boat a mile to do the same work % It will come to 
 less than half ; in other words, less than $2,000 a day for 
 
30 
 
 flie boatmen to do it than the present method at $4,000, with- 
 out taking into consideration the speed. 
 
 The Chairman.— Your intention is, that the State shall 
 eventually be the owners of the road % 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; we will make a bargain with your Canal Board 
 that as fast as the rails are laid they will be the property of the 
 State. 
 
 The Chairman. — This is to be a railroad ? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You stated that cities compete where railroads combine ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; but New York to-day owns no railroad, Boston 
 owns no railroad, and I am at work to see how the State of 
 New York can in ten years have this railroad, and own it from 
 Buffalo to New York city, that shall give it power to say how 
 much you will charge for freight without having any legislation, 
 because that thing done in good faith will do its work effectu- 
 ally. 
 
 The Chairman. — It is your desire that the Canal Board shall 
 regulate the freights from time to time ? 
 
 Mr. Crane.— The rates are fixed at a limit beyond which 
 they cannot go. 
 
 The Chaibman. — Can't they deviate from the charge ? 
 
 Mr. Crane. — The State owns the whole of it. 
 
 The Chairman. — Our trunk lines originally had their rates 
 fixed one way, but other legislation struck the rates off ; why 
 not suppose that in this case other legislation can lower the 
 rates ? 
 
 A. Yes ; and we can do the rates so cheaply that Baltimore 
 cannot come down to a point to do it and pay interest on $50,- 
 000,000. 
 
 Mr. Sheard. — How do you propose to get from here down 
 to New York ! ( 
 
 A. I am going to show that, by witnesses, it would extend it- 
 self to the State line to New Jersey, reaching the Jersey shore 
 with very little money ; a railroad from Buffalo to Albany with- 
 
m 
 
 out an outlet to New York is not a paying institution. If you 
 put this line at 1| cents a mile and ticket a man through to 
 New York, then you give him something, and all the old rail- 
 roads will turn around and say we can do as much as they can. 
 
 Mk. Sheard. — Why didn't you build the road on the pro- 
 posed route of the south side of the Mohawk \ 
 
 A. The land damages alone between here and Buffalo would 
 build the whole railroad upon the canal. 
 
 Mr. Sheard. — You can build so much cheaper on the canal 
 so as to make the comparative cost of running it below that of 
 any road that is now built, or that can be built in the future i 
 , A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. I take it that your motive is to increase the traffic in New 
 York? 
 
 A. The motive is fc to cheapen freight traffic by utilizing the 
 Erie and Oswego canals ; that 'the Welland canal will be out- 
 bid, and Buffalo and Oswego will have an outlet in the winter 
 as well as in the summer. 
 
 Mr. Sheard. — What is the maximum tonnage that you pro- 
 pose to tow on this canal to provide for the sinking fund ? 
 
 A. We could safely count on the Central doing 7,500,000 tons 
 a year ; we expect to take about one-quarter of the freight of 
 the Central ; that is all we expect to get. 
 
 The Chairman. — The canals carried about 5,000,000 last 
 year? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; and the Central road carried over 7,000,000 tons 
 of freight. 
 
 Ex-Canal Commissioner Darius A. Ogden was then called and 
 questioned by Mr. Crane : 
 
 Q. Did you hear the testimony of ex-Canal Commissioner 
 Alex. Barkley % 
 
 A. I did. 
 
 Q. Have you listened to the statements that have been made 
 by myself, and, if so, what are your views in relation to this 
 subject \ 
 
 A. I concur entirely with the views as expressed by Mr. 
 Barkley, and I think the plan both practical and feasible ; and, 
 
32 
 
 in my judgment, it is the best thing to be done. It would save 
 the State annually a large sum in the repairs upon the canal 
 banks. The men employed by the railroad in taking care of 
 their tracks will furnish a set of watchmen along the line of 
 great value to the State. In case of any break in the canal, the 
 use of the railroad, with their gravel trains put in requisition, 
 will enable the work to be done in less than one-half the time 
 and cost, and I give the plan my most hearty indorsement. 
 
 Adjourned until 3:30, March 20, '79. 
 
 SECOND DAY'S HEARING. 
 
 Thursday, March 20, 1879. 
 
 Mr. Crane. — I intended to have Mr. Jarvis here as a witness, 
 but he is unable to be here to-day : I will read a letter which I 
 received from him : 
 
 LETTER FROM JOHN B. JARVIS. 
 
 Rome, N. Y., 17th March, 1879. 
 
 Edwd. Crane, Esq., 
 
 Delavan House, Albany, N. Y. 
 
 Dear Sir: — Mr. Frothingham called on me last Saturday 
 with your request that I should appear on Wednesday, (19th) 
 before Assembly Committee on Canals, in reference to the pro- 
 ject of towing boats on the State canals by means of locomotive 
 steam. 
 
 I would go to Albany for this object as soon as any other, 
 but my age admonishes me to be cautious, and at this season it 
 would not be prudent for me to do so. 
 
 As I have fully stated my views in my article, published in 
 the International of May last, I do not see any necessity for 
 me to go before the committee. My opinion is there fully set 
 
33 
 
 forth, and I could only say subsequent reflection has confirmed 
 them. 
 
 I can see no method by which economy in canal transporta- 
 tion can more effectually be secured between the lakes and the 
 Hudson. 
 
 I notice the State Engineer recommends measures to give one 
 foot additional draft to the canals ; this will be a valuable im- 
 provement. 
 
 I understand he is also eagaged in measures to improve the 
 handling of the locks on the canal, by which an important sav- 
 ing will be effected in the time for boats in passing the locks. 
 
 These are both important to canal economy, and with towing 
 by locomotive engines will secure, in my judgment, the neces- 
 sary economy to enable boats to compete successfully with rail 
 transportation, and secures to the canal the great traffic of the 
 lakes. 
 
 I have no faith the people will long sustain a free canal by 
 taxes, even if it were made a constitutional provision. The 
 only way is to put the canal in a condition to take care of itself. 
 
 We are now borne down by taxes, and this addition will be 
 unsatisfactory. 
 
 Very respectfully yours, 
 
 (Signed.) JOHN B. JERVIS. 
 
 Mr. Barclay, before leaving last evening, sent me a note which 
 I wish to read : 
 
 LETTER FROM ALEXANDER BARCLAY. 
 Ed wd. Crane, Esq., 
 
 Dear Sir: — At your request J give you the particulars of my 
 experience in towing a fleet of boats in the Erie canal. 
 
 In 1873, about December 20, on the level west of Schenectady, 
 I made up a fleet of 23 loaded boats in one line, connected by 
 short lines, and attached to them three steam tugs and fifty- 
 three pairs of horses, for the purpose of breaking through the 
 packs of ice which accumulated at points in the canal and ob* 
 structed navigation. 
 
34 
 
 The ice was a foot in thickness, and had been broken up by 
 the ice-breakers. 
 
 Whenever we approached a pack of ice we increased our 
 speed from two to three miles per hour. 
 
 At all times boats passed around the curves, and some of 
 them were very short ones, without difficulty. 
 
 They followed one another just as a train of cars does on a 
 railroad. The teams were placed off the forward tugs, and 
 were attached to it by a heavy line. This was necessary to 
 keep the forward tug straight in the canal, as it would sheer 
 without them on account of the ice. 
 
 The boats in the train did not seem to require much steering. 
 The forward boat and eight or nine others had steersmen on 
 them. In a fleet of live boats to be towed by a locomotive, I 
 think two men, one each on the forward and rear boats, would 
 steer them. 
 
 In the experiment of towing the loaded lumber boats between 
 Troy and Albany, by the steam wagon, when they were going 
 at a rate of 3^ miles an hour, I took particular notice of the 
 wave and it was not more than from 4 to 6 inches. 
 
 Boats could be built for this kind of towing a little sharper 
 in the bow ; they would tow easily, and in that case I think 
 the wave would not be higher than from 3 to 4 inches. The 
 water, in my opinion, can be raised in the canals 6 inches at a 
 very small expense, and this would be a great advantage in 
 cheapening transportation. 
 
 I very much fear that the Canada canal system will work 
 permanent injury to the city and State of New York unless 
 we can increase the capacity of our canal and cheapen trans- 
 portation charges lower than by any other route. 
 
 Very truly yours, 
 
 (Signed) ALEXANDER BARCLAY. 
 
 March 19, 1879. 
 
 M. Allen called : 
 
 Q. Where do you reside ? 
 * A. I am living here in the city at present, at Albany. 
 Q. What is your occupation ? 
 
35 
 
 A. Civil and mechanical engineer. 
 
 Q. Yon heard the statement of Mr. Barclay, yesterday, with 
 regard to locomotive drawing boats ; the experiments that were 
 made % 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Will yon state to the committee, as engineer, as to the 
 drawing with locomotive referred to by Mr. Barclay ; and also 
 state to the committee whether, in your judgment, there is any 
 impracticability of drawing boats with locomotives, in the fact 
 of It being diagonal to the boat ? 
 
 A. About the experiment that was made at that time, the 
 facts are the same as stated in that report, or substantially the 
 same ; and, as- far as the practicability of towing boats by 
 means of a locomotive on a track on the towing path, I don't 
 see any difficulty about that. The only objection I see would 
 be the side draft on the engine ; and, as far as that is concerned, 
 it can be easily overcome, by elevating the inside rail, so that 
 the weight of the engine would overcome the side draft. Of 
 course the rails would be parallel with the canal, so that the 
 engine tips very little. 
 
 Q. From the canal ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; without overcoming the side draft, if placed 
 level, it would have a tendency to pull the wheels against the 
 inside rails at all times. 
 
 Q. Have you any question as to the feasibility and the power 
 of the locomotive to do and perform what is claimed for it in 
 drawing boats % 
 
 A. No, sir ; no question whatsoever. 
 
 Q. There is no question % 
 
 A. None but this : I think the bows of the boats would have 
 to be modified a little from their present form ; they would 
 have to conform more nearly to what is called the sharp bow 
 boats ; originally the boats of the canal were called , 
 or something of that kind ; then they were changed from that, 
 and we have what is known, in the scientific way of speaking, 
 the course of quickest descent, or the course upon which there 
 would be the least friction upon the water passing along by 
 that course of quickest descent on approaching it, something 
 the same as the arc through which the pendulum moves by 
 making what is called the cycloid arc ; in making the body of 
 the boat conform as near as practicable to that, you get the least 
 
36 
 
 friction of the water, and consequently there is less danger of 
 having your wave in front of the boat. 
 
 Mr. Siieakd. — Couldn't you change that arc, or would you 
 have to draw an angle from the bow \ 
 A. No angle. 
 
 Q. Wouldn't have to bend it so much as that \ 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Mr. Hurd. — Are you a practical engineer? 
 A. I am, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you-ever had any experience in towing boats in that 
 way ? 
 
 A. No ; I can't say that I ever had ; it is just an experiment ; 
 all the experiments I ever had anything to do with is the one 
 stated in that report appended to Mr. Barclay's report. 
 
 Q. Why did you speak about that side draft if you never 
 had any experience in it ? 
 
 A. That reduces itself to a mathematical problem, as well as 
 by experiment. 
 
 Q. Then you don't know as to its practicability — merely as 
 to the theory as an engineer ? 
 
 A. The theory would be this : The same idea would come in 
 that we have in keeping an engine on the track in going around 
 a curve ; a certain force acts to carry it off, run off the curve, 
 and another force would have to overcome that by elevating 
 the outer rail ; this force in the rear would act in an inverted 
 way, but it would be about the same thing. 
 
 Q. Suppose an evener were placed on the end of the engine, 
 and a rope attached to the very end of the evener, and the other 
 end fast and drawn Irom a point from that locomotive, wouldn't 
 you get a direct draft — wouldn't an evener placed on the end of 
 that make a direct draft almost % 
 
 A. You couldn't always get a direct draft unless your evener 
 reached out parallel with the line in which the boat was trav- 
 eling. 
 
 Q. Suppose that evener were at the further boat from the 
 locomotive, how much could you reduce that side draft \ 
 A. Just in proportion to the length of the evener. 
 Q. Is it simply a mechanical matter % 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
37 
 
 Q. Simply a question of mechanical skill \ 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Crane called Mr. Ames of Oswego city. 
 
 . Mr. Cheney Ames said : I shall say what I have to say very 
 briefly. I noticed in the papers that yesterday from this com- 
 mittee came a report equivalent to a recommendation of an 
 amendment to the Constitution, by which the canal tolls could 
 be entirely abrogated. That being the case, who then has got 
 to support the canals ? Is it those who use them, or is it we 
 who build them % Is it not a fact that the citizens of the State 
 of New York have built this canal, and are now asked by for- 
 eign States to maintain this bridge, that their commerce may 
 pass over it at our expense Now if that is not the situation of 
 things, then I have not comprehended it. 
 
 Now, then, if we have got to be the carriers of the commerce 
 of the East and the West, and from Europe to the Pacific, let 
 us seek the cheapest way and method by which it can be done. 
 
 If I correctly understand this bill, gentlemen, you need not 
 amend the Constitution to get a cent off from the tolls that are 
 now charged between Buffalo and Albany. The difference in 
 the towing of that canal boat that carries 8,000 bushels from 
 Buffalo to Albany is that reduction of one cent ; but if you wish 
 to do still more, then abrogate the tolls upon the canals and 
 you will save two cents a bushel. When you save two cents a 
 bushel from the present price you have secured thecomnerce 
 of the East and the West to the canal route. The railroads 
 cannot afford it. If these are the facts, this proposition accom- 
 plishes the object. 
 
 Suppose 3^011 recommend an amendment of the Constitution, 
 and it goes to the people, at the same time giving the bill which 
 Mr. Crane has presented, of the two propositions which would 
 they take ? Will they take an abrogation of the tolls by which 
 they are to be burthened with the maintenance of the canals, 
 or will they take the bill which does the thing without any ab- 
 rogation of the tolls, or without taxing us any further for the 
 support of commerce % 
 
 This, gentlemen, appears to me so simple that he who can add 
 two and two can understand it. 
 
 Again, you have appointed a committee to go over the State 
 of New York during the intervention between this and the next 
 
 0. 
 
38 
 
 session of the Legislature, to investigate the railroads, and to 
 see when, where, and how they make these extraordinary 
 charges upon local freight business ; it costs me as much to 
 send a barrel of my flour to Boston from the city of Oswego as 
 it does to send a barrel of flour from Chicago to Liverpool. 
 The same combination that carries my flour, carries that to 
 Liverpool. 
 
 Now, gentlemen, where is the justice to the people of the 
 State of New York in this transaction \ 
 
 I have known that the Legislature has time and again en- 
 deavored to pass a pro-rata bill, by which justice should be 
 done to its own -citizens who have granted the franchise over 
 which the western travel and commerce comes, and which has 
 made the western prairies the value they are to-day. It is our 
 railroads and our canals that have done it. Now, gentlemen, 
 pass this bill, and you have passed the pro-rata ; you have 
 abolished discrimination, accomplished the object desired, 
 which never could be done and never will be done in any other 
 way, for we have tried it year after year. Pass this bill, and 
 pro-rata is a fixed fact. Again, at the close of the season, there 
 is a great accumulation of grain in the warehouses of Buffalo 
 and Oswego, which must go forward, and when the canals close 
 there is no longer any competition to railroads. We are 
 charged 30 per cent, more increase in freight than before. Pass 
 this bill, and that is done away. 
 
 Now, gentlemen, if this bill accomplish pro-rata ; if this bill 
 evens up commerce, as is proposed, without any call upon the 
 State of New York at all, or without any call upon the stock- 
 holders beyond those that are willing to make the investment, 
 why is it not wisdom on our part to give this privilege to those 
 who are willing to take the responsibility upon themselves, and 
 do for the State what the State cannot do for itself, and what 
 it has tried and failed to do. 
 
 These propositions appears so plain, so distinct, so com- 
 plete in themselves, that I cannot see any objection to allowing 
 them. You are right in your theory in regard to some points 
 in this question. How is it to be done \ That I am not going 
 to tell you. I do not know ; I only know, in general terms, 
 that those who have studied this question, and studied this 
 matter, look upon it favorably. I am now told that all difficul- 
 ties are so removed that it has become an easy matter. 
 
39 
 
 Again, this is an age of improvement ; you see it in all direc- 
 tions and on every hand. Here lies your old canal, with very 
 little improvement since the day it was built, except that it has 
 been enlarged in its capacity, and is now capable of doing- 
 double the amount of work it was then. I will not detain you 
 much longer. The State of New York, the United States of 
 America, are ahead of the world in all the advancements that 
 tend to the improvement in science and mechanism, and every 
 other thing that tends to promote the happiness of man and 
 the growth and prosperity of a country. That honor was ac- 
 corded us in the Exhibitions at Philadelphia and in France. 
 Now then shall we sit down here and say we are done, and that 
 we can make no further improvements unless we tax ourselves 
 with the means necessary to do it. If the science and improve- 
 ment of the day and of the age can be seized upon to advance 
 commerce, to improve your canals, and to even up the extortion 
 of railroads, is it not becoming for us to do it? I should like 
 to be one of the committee to make a report in favor of this 
 great advancement. I would like to have the privilege of having 
 some hand in it ; for it does seem to me that this subject is of 
 sufficient importance to draw the attention not only of your 
 honorable selves, but of the large community which is inter- 
 ested, and which has been interested, and who are ready to 
 stand by you in a favorable report of thie matter. I say it was 
 well set forth by Mr. Crane that it was indispensable that we 
 should make an improvement in our commercial enterprises in 
 order to compete with and secure the advantages which are 
 going to the North and to the South, These improvements 
 are going on and constantly moving. I have here (the gentle- 
 man here referred to a paper) a report that was made in Canada 
 last month. You know, sir, that perhaps, in view of the fact 
 that we abrogated the Reciprocity Treaty some ten or fifteen 
 years ago, that the Canadians have endeavored to retaliate upon 
 us in some way. Now, they have put a tariff upon the com- 
 modities of the United States, and they have also made a favor- 
 able report for the making of a canal from Georgian Bay to 
 Toronto and Lake Ontario, in which it is set forth that if that 
 improvement is made, all the products of the great West, as far 
 south as Chicago, and from the increased trade that is to be 
 piled up from Duluth, to a foreign market of Great Britain, 
 will go through Canada at $2.95 cheaper than the cheapest route 
 
40 
 
 flow known to navigation can transport them. Here then is an 
 opportunity to cheapen navigation, to cheapen the great pro- 
 ducts of the West to the consumers East. If we are mistaken in 
 this, then we should expect to abide by your decision with the 
 grace that becomes those who have embraced] a false notion. 
 But we would be exceedingly glad to know that you in your 
 wisdom should settle the question in regard to this bill, and if 
 you do not feel disposed to take the responsibility of recom- 
 mending it to the extent that we would do if we had the report 
 to make and give to the Legislature, and if you are acting, as 
 you are, for the people of the State of New York, you will find 
 this bill would meet far greater favor among those who ha re 
 the canal to support, than it would to have the Constitution 
 amended. I am not opposed to that ; but at the same time 
 why are we burdening ourselves so much and so greatly with 
 the millions of dollars of tax that comes upon us. Who is 
 benefited '{ Not the boatman, for he has been five years trying 
 to live by his boats and has failed. If they had piled them up 
 and burned them they would have made money by it. Who is 
 benefited % Why then should we be so anxious to burden our- 
 selves with the great taxation and expenses to make free canal 
 for the farmers of the West ? 
 
 I have as much sympathy for the poor man as anybody. This 
 measure, gentlemen, now under consideration, means more than 
 we have expressed — more than any measure that .1 know of 
 before your honorable body. 
 
 By Mr. Sheard. — What other outlets have you from Os- 
 wego ? 
 
 Mr. Ames.— None but the railroad, sir. 
 
 Mr. Sheard. — You are not able to get a through rate? 
 
 Mr, Ames. — I might say here that when this canal is done 
 from Georgian Bay to Toronto, when the Welland canal is 
 completed, which will be in two years, when the largest vessels 
 will come down, and when these canals, if built, will bring their 
 produce to Lake Ontario, what do we want % We want them to 
 take the property and carry it to New Y r ork as cheap as they 
 could carry it to Montreal. Now the freight from Lake Ontario 
 to Montreal is at four to five cents a bushel ; from Oswego to 
 
41 
 
 New York it is five to six cents, only losing about one and one- 
 half cents in going to New York to take shipping there. That 
 is the difference. You will also bear in mind what Mr. Van- 
 derbilt is doing. He is now making contracts in the West for 
 through freights to Europe, and the people are not benefited by 
 it, they are not benefited to the extent of one cent. They get a 
 little handling perhaps in the business, but the canal is the 
 regulator, and it is the only regulator, and when this railroad 
 shall be built, by which the improvements anticipated and 
 accepted under it are made, we then can compete. 
 
 Mr. Sheard. — What effect would it have upon the grain busi- 
 ness to Oswego when the Welland canal is in force? 
 
 • Mr. Ames. — With the tolls off the canal I do not think but 
 what the main trade will get on the Erie canal, but what the 
 effect will be, is yet to be determined. The Welland canal will 
 bring the largest vessels down to Lake Ontario. The toll from 
 Buffalo to New York is one cent and three- tenths ; from Os- 
 wego to New York, six-tenths, a little less or about one-half 
 what they are to Buffalo ; if they can bring the grain down to 
 Oswego for three- fourths of a cent more than they can carry it 
 to Buffalo, Oswego will get some of the freight, otherwise not. 
 
 The Chairman. — Doesn't it cost more than that to get it 
 from Oswego by canal to Syracuse ; you have to lock up all the 
 way % 
 
 Mr. Ames. — There is a heavy rise. 
 
 The Chairman. — That has tended to make that route rather 
 unfavorable for carrying the produce \ 
 
 Mr. Ames. — The reduction of the tolls on the canals has done 
 it. In 1862 we handled as much grain as they did in Buffalo, 
 because that could come to Oswego by Lake Erie, and the ad- 
 vantages were in our favor. 
 
 Mr. Sheard. — Do I understand you to say that the lowering 
 of the tolls is prejudicial to the interests of the trade at Os- 
 wego % 
 
 Mr. Ames. — Entirely, sir, commercially. Had the Constitu. 
 
42 
 
 tion been fulfilled or lived up to, Oswego would have had a 
 good business to-day. 
 
 Mr. Wadsworth. — What do you regard the probability of 
 breaking bulk when the enlarged canal is made through Wel- 
 land, in Ontario, is it a probable fact that a larger amount of 
 freight does go direct to Liverpool, making their partition on 
 the lakes, or would it probably be at Kingston and Oswego 'I 
 
 Mr. Ames.— Well, sir, my impression from experience is that 
 the lake vessels cannot profitably navigate the ocean, and that 
 the ocean vessels cannot navigate the lakes. When the grain 
 is brought direct from the far West, it is brought to Kingston, 
 there transferred to large barges and towed to Montreal, and 
 there again transferred for shipping. The first and original 
 expenses of elevating can be done at one-fourth of a cent a 
 bushel, and the advantages arising to the grain in being handled 
 and aired is equivalent to that expense. The elevators can be 
 made to elevate from three to six thousand bushels an hour. 
 
 Ex-State Engineer S. H. Sweet, called and examined. 
 Examined by Mr. Crane : 
 
 I will ask you to make an estimate in detail from your own 
 reports of your own knowledge of the cost of canal transporta- 
 tion as it is now carried on ; also what the cost will be in trans- 
 porting under the improved method proposed. Without asking 
 questions, I would like to have you give us the information % 
 
 A. I made two calculations, one for mule power and one for 
 towing by locomotive. 
 
 Q. Read to the committee what you have % 
 
 A. The first method is for mule power. (Witness read from 
 paper.) The total time consumed by the present mode of tow- 
 ing by animal power, to make a round trip from Buffalo to New 
 York and return, (990 miles), is thirty days, or seven round 
 trips during the season of 210 days. The speed made on canal 
 sections, deducting all detentions, is as follows : 
 
43 
 
 Total time round trip 720 hours. 
 
 Deduct : 
 
 Detention in port, 6 days 144 hours. 
 
 On river, 4 days 96 " 
 
 Lockages, 72, at 30 minutes both ways 36 " 
 
 276 
 
 Total time, uninterrupted sections 440 hours. 
 
 Making speed eastward, 1.31 miles per hour 267£ hours. 
 
 And making speed westward, 1.98 miles per hour. . .176f " 
 
 .444 hours. 
 
 COST WITH ANIMAL POWER. 
 
 . Investment : 
 
 Cost of boat $4,000 00 
 
 Cost of 4 horses 500 00 
 
 Cost of 4 harnesses 60 00 
 
 Total $4,560 00 
 
 Interest on investment at 7 per cent 319 20 
 
 Reserve fund at 7 per cent., to replace boat in 10 
 
 years 289 60 
 
 Repairs to boat, 8 per cent, of cost 320 00 
 
 Insurance on boat 20 00 
 
 $948 80 
 
 Crew, including board : 
 
 One captain, $90 per month , 7 months $630 00 
 
 One steersman, $20 " " 140 00 
 
 Two drivers, $20 " " 168 00 
 
 One cook, $10 u " 70 00 
 
 1,008 00 
 
 Keeping and shoeing of horses 900 00 
 
 Reserve fund to replace horses in 6 years 69 90 
 
 River and harbor towage, $60 each, x 7 trips 420 00 
 
 Commissions, $25 each, x 7 trips 175 00 
 
 Insurance on cargo, $35 each, x 7 trips 245 00 
 
 Warfage incidentals, $7 each, x 7 trips 49 00 
 
 Total cost for season $3,815 70 
 
44 
 
 Tons transported : 
 Eastward, 230 x 7. . 
 Westward, 57^x7. 
 
 1,610 tons. 
 4024 " 
 
 Cost per ton moved, Buffalo to New York 
 
 2, 012 J tons. 
 $1.89.6 
 
 Cost per ton per mile 
 
 3.83 mills. 
 5.688 cents. 
 0.50 
 
 Cost of a bushel of wheat 
 
 Elevating charges in New York 
 
 Trimming cargo per bushel 
 
 0.15 
 
 Total cost per bushel, with transhipments.. . 6.338 cents. 
 
 COST WITH LOCOMOTIVE POWER — ERIE CANAL. 
 
 By proposed method of locomotive power, on a basis of 3 
 miles per hour between the locks going East, and 4J miles per 
 hour going West. 
 
 When the locks are in good condition and boats arriving in 
 trains, they can be passed in 5 minutes each, or 25 minutes per 
 train of 5 boats each. 
 
 Mr. Sheard. — Let me call your attention to quite a discre- 
 pancy in figuring the time of running a boat ; you figured 30 
 minutes for lockage, 15 each way — when you lock by locomotive 
 it only takes 5. 
 
 Witness. — A boat is very indifferent about getting in and 
 out of a lock ; they sometimes have to swell them out ; there 
 may be a temporary trouble in the water. 
 
 Q. I understand the difference of time in getting in and out ; 
 but I do not understand why it is necessary to estimate 15 in 
 one lockage and 10 in another. 
 
 A. That is about what they average in a season. 
 
 Q. Does it not take from 3 to 5 minutes to let the water in % 
 
 A. No, sir ; in 1847 to 1850 experiments were made where 
 you could lock them in 4 minutes ; I have read in some report 
 the time occupied in doing that which may be a little over 4 
 minutes ; that is by experiment on a lock in good condition ; 
 we did it as rapidly as we could. 
 
 Q. Does it consume from 10 to 15 minutes to put a boat 
 through the lock, taking everything into consideration, the con- 
 dition of the locks, the scarcity of water, etc. 
 
45 
 
 A. That is the average, from 10 to 15 minutes ; the reason I 
 call towing by train, it is presumed that these locks will be put 
 in good condition, managed in a little different way, and proba- 
 bly be of more benefit to parties passing boats. 
 Q. It depends upon the kind of a lock-gate you have % 
 A. Yes ; and another thing, the difference in lift lock ; some 
 locks have a 3-foot lift, and others a 10-foot lift ; and the drop- 
 gate has facilitated the lockage very much. 
 
 The Chairman. — There is no guarantee that the State will 
 perfect that lockage in the case of towing by locomotive power. 
 
 Mr. Crane. — In the State, as it is now, it is no particular bus- 
 iness of anybody ; the State cares nothing about it ; the start- 
 ing of a boat out of the lock by locomotive power will do it in 
 one-third of the time occupied by horses, from the time the gate 
 is open ; that is the expectation ; I think it is fair to put it as 
 the witness has put it. 
 
 Witness. — From my experience I know the boat can be 
 locked, when the lock is in fair working condition, and the 
 boatman attentive to his business, there is no trouble in pass- 
 ing a boat in 5 minutes ; it can be done in 4 minutes. 
 
 (Witness continued reading from paper as follows): 
 
 The time consumed in making a round trip from Buffalo to 
 New York and return, would be as follows, with locomotive 
 power : 
 
 72 lockages East and West, 50 minutes 60 hrs. 
 
 700 miles of canal, average speed 3f- miles per hour 187 ". 
 
 4 days in port 96 u 
 
 4 days on the Hudson 96 " 
 
 Total hours 439 hrs. 
 
 Say, total days, 18£, or \\\ trips per season of 210 days. 
 
46 
 
 COST OF TRANSPORTATION. 
 
 Investment same as boat with horse-power $4,560 00 
 
 Interest on investment, renewal, reserve fund, repairs 
 
 and insurance, same as horse towing $948 80 
 
 Same crew and expense, except drivers 840 00 
 
 Total $1,788 80 
 
 River and harbor towage $60 each trip. 
 
 Commissioners __ 25 M 
 
 Insurance cn cargo . . 35 " 
 
 Wharfage, etc 7 " 
 
 $127 by 1H trips .... 1,439 00 
 7,933 miles at 10 cents _ 793 30 
 
 Total cost per season by locomotive $4,021 10 
 
 The tonnage transported during the season ( burthen of boats 
 same as horse boats East and West ) as follows : 
 
 230 tons eastward x 11 J trips 2,606 tons. 
 
 57£ tons westward x 11^ trips 651 
 
 Total tons removed 3,257 
 
 Cost per ton moved from Buffalo to New York, 495 
 
 miles... $1,234 
 
 Cost per ton per mile.. 2£ mills. 
 
 Cost per bushel wheat moved from Buffalo to New 
 
 York #3.70 ^ 
 
 Elevating charges in New York • 50 * 
 
 Trimming cargo • 1,5 » 
 
 Total cost per bushel exclusive of tolls ^4.35 
 
 Thus saving 2 cents a bushel by the latter method. 
 
 TOWING ENGINE. 
 
 The general plan of engine selected as the best for towing the 
 boats is a back truck, double under tank locomotive, weighing 
 
47 
 
 39,000 lbs.— 35,000 lbs. on the drivers, with cylinders 12 by 18 
 inches, and 3 feet to 40 inches diameter of driving-wheels. Its 
 performance of duty is guaranteed as follows, viz. : 
 
 Its tractive power is 8,000 lbs., and will haul on a level 800 
 tons, and up a grade of 40 feet 260 tons, and up a grade of 100 
 feet 115 tons. 
 
 The traction by formula (that generally used) is (125 x 12 8 x 
 18) 8,100 lbs., being about the same as that guaranteed by the 
 manufacturers. "In the above the effective pressure of steam on 
 the cylinder is taken at 125 lbs. per square inch, diameter of 
 driving wheels at 40 inches. 
 
 The box cars on a three-foot gauge road generally weigh about 
 . six tons, and will carry ten tons of freight, making with car and 
 load 16 tons. 
 
 Therefore an engine of the above power will haul on a level 50 
 loaded cars, or 500 net tons. 
 
 To haul the contents of the five^loaded boats, 1,200 tons, over 
 the level road, would require, with this power of locomotion, 
 2yV trains, as the weight of the cars and load would be 1,920 
 tons. 
 
 Many of the narrow gauge engines will haul 11 tons up a 
 grade of 340 feet per mile. One engine working upon the Min- 
 eral Range railroad hauls 62| tons over a grade of 211 feet per 
 mile. This engine weighs 20 tons. The following shows the 
 capacity of narrow gauge engines : 
 
 Will haul 26 tons over 193 feet grade. 
 a u 21 <( ii 247 <l u 
 " " 15 " " 265 " " 
 # <* " 6 " " 385 " " 
 
 The cost of running a locomotive of power to draw five boats 
 at a speed of three miles an hour, including repairs of track, 
 would be about $16 to $18 per day, or from 5^ to 6 cents per 
 mile per boat. 
 
 The lowest cost of towing by present method is 20 to 25 cents 
 per mile, which, at 20 cents upon the mileage of one round trip, 
 amounts to $140. 
 
48 
 
 If (owed by locomotive power at the price of 10 cents per mile, 
 the cost per round trip (700) miles would be $70. 
 
 Saving in towing one trip $70 00 
 
 " " 7 " 490 00 
 
 U " 11 " ... 770 00 
 
 By making 11 trips per season with locomotive power instead 
 of 7 by animal power, the carrying capacity of the canal will be 
 increased 7 to 11. 
 
 In towing boats through the canal single, at a speed of three 
 miles an hour, the resistance is equal to 4 lbs. per ton of freight, 
 and at two miles an hour, about ^ lb. Upon a 3-foot gauge 
 railroad the resistance, at a speed of eight to ten miles an hour, 
 is equal to from 10 to 15 lbs. per ton of freight ; deducting fric- 
 tion of the locomotive and loss by angle of the towing line, and 
 it leaves an available traction power of about 7,600 lbs., and, as 
 the average force exerted by the horse towing does not exceed 
 160 lbs., the above locomotive represents the towing power of 
 about 46 horses going at a speed of two miles an hour. 
 
 The resistance (maximum) towing a loaded boat at two miles 
 an hour, is 430 lbs., hence at this speed a locomotive will tow 
 about 17 boats loaded. 
 
 The resistance to a single boat at the speed of three miles an 
 hour is 1,060 lbs., hence at this speed a locomotive will tow, say 
 7 loaded boats. 
 
 The dead weight of cars on a narrow gauge (maximum), to 
 paying freight is as 6 to 10. The weight of a boat is 63 to 65 
 tons, therefore the dead weight of transportation by boat is 1 to 
 3£ tons of freight. About 20 per cent, of the resistance is saved 
 in towing boats in trains of say 5 boats each. 
 
 Total maximum resistance towing 5 single boats at a speed bf 
 3 miles an hour is equal to 5,300 lbs., same in train, say 4,200 
 lbs. 
 
 Q. In this computation you estimate the cost per ton from 
 Buffalo to New York, at $1.90 by animal power % 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And $1.23 by locomotives % 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
49 
 
 Q. That is, you estimate they will go, on an average, 3 4 3 ¥ miles 
 an hour? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You have been acquainted with canals as engineer ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; I have a recollection of some report which Mr. 
 Fay made upon this same subject, or a similar matter with re- 
 gard to the introduction of an improved system of towage, and 
 he was in favor of some improved system, and he gave as his 
 judgment that it would b^of advantage. 
 
 Q. That it would be expedient to tow faster than two and a 
 half miles an hour ? 
 
 A. That depends upon the method. If we employ the auto- 
 matic power, the screw propeller, you lose from forty to sixt}^ 
 per cent, by the screw ; but by towing by adhesion you gain 
 all that. 
 
 Q. Would not the depression at the bow be less when the 
 power is in the stern than it would be by adhesion ? 
 
 A. I think it would ; but if you will take occasion to look 
 over the report of the commission during the Baxter experi- 
 ments, you will find loaded boats of 200 tons made three and 
 four miles an hour during the experiments, and very generally 
 three and eighty -five hundredths miles an hour. I do not know 
 of any experiments myself, but I learned of those who had 
 made experiments when I first came on the canal, that by a 
 speed of six to seven miles an hour a large swell is created and 
 carried along at the bow. * 
 
 Q. In towing a boat at moderate speed, when you accelerate 
 that motion, the water tends to push forward, doesn't it ? 
 
 A. There is just where I would like to say that it don't seem 
 to amount to a great deal until you get up a speed of six miles 
 an hour, then the swell seems to rise in front and is carried along 
 with the boat, and is a great drag on the boat. 
 
 Q. It increases by increments, but you cannot fix any arbi- 
 trary points at which it commences? 
 
 A. I tliink it is about six miles an hour when they get that 
 momentum. 
 
 Q. Would not the tendency be to displace that water ; a boat 
 drawing a certain depth of water would then come near the bot- 
 tom ; wouldn't that be the tendency ? 
 
 A. No ; the tendency is to recover the displacement, and the 
 velocity in overcoming this displacement produces, a current in 
 
50 
 
 the rear of the boat, and assists the boat in tow to pass easily ; 
 it leaves no depression for the pulling boat to encounter. 
 
 Q. You, say you have a tow of five boats loaded, they load 
 them down to within about six inches from the bottom of the 
 canal ; you pass along at the rate of four miles an hour, and to 
 a certain extent the water is displaced and the first boat passes ; 
 now comes your next boat ; you do not suppose all the water 
 displaced has suddenly got back into the vacuum of that first 
 boat 1 • 
 
 A. It has not completely, perhaps. 
 
 Q. Then the depth of the water is not as great as it was % now 
 we come to the 3d, 4th and 5th boat — do you think there would 
 be seven feet of water for the fifth boat to travel in % 
 
 A. I don't know that there would be two inches difference ; 
 it is the counter-current that runs in to fill the displacement in 
 the rear of the boat and does fully recover its level within per- 
 haps three feet of the stern of the boat ; that is at the rate of 
 three and one-half miles an hour. 
 
 (j. At what rate of speed is it safe to pass tows % 
 
 A. About two and one- half miles an hour ; I don't know but 
 three miles an hour they could pass. 
 
 By Mr. Sheard. — Q. Speaking of this vacuum and dis- 
 placing of water, would not five boats being iii such close con- 
 nection have a tendency to raise the depth of the water in the 
 immediate neighborhood of these boats as much as the vacuum 
 would cause it to recede % Take, for an instance, a bowl of 
 water, and*drop an egg in ; that raises the level of the water ; 
 so as regards these boats being close together, would not a dis- 
 placement of the water by the bodies of the boats contract the 
 vacuum principle which our Chairman has explained ? 
 
 A. It seems to restore itself almost completely within a few 
 feet ; if the boats were about within 5 feet of each other, almost 
 completely, that is from experiment ; from theory it is a very 
 easy thing to calculate ; in practice it seems to restore itself by 
 a counter- current in the rear. 
 
 Q. If the level was just as long as a boat, if it measured 6£ 
 feet of water without a boat in and you let a boat in. 
 
 A. You raise it in the amount of the displacement ; it has no 
 bearing in a case like this, for it escapes along the sides of the 
 boat ; you are speaking of a confined bowl ; with the boat it 
 escapes by a current along the sides and under the boat, fills 
 
51 
 
 and follows up in the rear ; it has no such relation at all as in 
 the bowl. The greatest depression is at the centre of the boat, 
 and not at the rear, as generally supposed. 
 
 By the Chairman. — Q. In moving a train of boats in that 
 way, the water passes along the sides and returns in the wake 
 of the boat in time for the next boat % 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; that is the law and the result of experiment \ 
 
 Q. What is the width of the prism % 
 
 A. It is 70 feet on the surface. 
 
 Q. What is the maximum width of a canal boat \ 
 
 A. About 17J feet. 
 
 Q. You say boats could pass about three miles an hour ? 
 
 A. I presume they might, perhaps two and a half an hour ; I 
 don' t know but they could three. 
 
 Q. For instance, if they were passing each other at that rate 
 of speed, we have taken up in the boat 35 feet, the canal at the 
 bottom of the prism is only 56 feet — you only have that for the 
 water to pass back — do you think it would be practicable to 
 pass two boats at that speed — would they not drag on the 
 ground ? 
 
 A. No, sir ; I don't think it would make a difference of over 
 three inches in the reduction of the water in passing at the rate 
 of two and a half miles an hour. 
 
 Q. In passing two fleets of boats, five in a fleet, at the rate of 
 three miles an hour, there would not be more than three inches 
 difference in the height of the water between the frcmt boat and 
 the rear \ 
 
 A. I don't think there would ; I have never figured upon it ; 
 I judge from experiments ; it is a matter of judgment. 
 Q. What division were you on % 
 
 A. I was located on the middle division for two years as resi- 
 dent engineer. 
 
 Q. Don't they have considerable trouble on the Rome levels 
 in dry time \ 
 
 A. The principal trouble has been on this level ; there is 
 ample supply if the water could be evenly distributed, but the 
 winds drive it back east, and to counteract it we constructed a 
 reservoir to restore west end in the case of winds ; at constant 
 high winds I found at Syracuse it would lower the Syracuse 
 end sometimes six inches and pile it up toward the west end of 
 the level. 
 
f)2 
 
 Q. Did they have trouble with the Montezuma level ? 
 
 A. No ; along the Jordan there is a place where they are de- 
 ficient, but they are not troubled as much as long level. 
 
 Q. Sometimes on the eastern end of the long level ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; the reservoir has been constructed on the east 
 end for the purpose of overcoming that depression there. 
 
 Q. So that probably in three months of the year you would 
 not have more than six feet of water ? 
 
 A. The greatest depression was si£ inches that I ever found, 
 that" was before the reservoir was constructed, but now I do not 
 think they are troubled over 2 or 3 inches ? 
 
 Q. Is not the maximum capacity of the prism of the canal 
 boats of 240 tons — that is to say, in the present form of con- 
 struction of boats, that is all the boats will take ? 
 
 A. Yes ; that is forcing the prism, too. 
 
 Q. That is taking into connection the 7 feet of water — you 
 say in three months of the season you have no more than 6 feet 
 of water, in your estimate there you can carry this produce to 
 New York for $1.23, but you have estimated a cargo of 240 
 tons a season ? 
 
 A. Two hundred and thirty, I call it. 
 
 Q. Could you carry 230 a season ? 
 
 A. Not at any time was the depression over six inches, but 
 that occurred on the east end of the long level ; that was before 
 the construction of the reservoir ; they had an abundance of 
 water if it^could be distributed, but the winds held it back so 
 that sometimes it would be six inches below. 
 
 Q. On the Home level, one season and another, for two or 
 three months of the year, they don't have 6 feet ? 
 
 A. I do not think it has ever been less than six and one-half ; 
 we get our full seven feet about all the time. 
 
 Q. On these disadvantages you figured the same average for 
 the mule as steam power, didn' t you ? 
 
 A. I used the same condition. 
 
 Q. You did not make any allowance for this on either of 
 them ? 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. They are all figured on the same basis ? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. So that when one is susceptible of reduction the other is, 
 also ? 
 
53 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; it would answer the same for both systems. 
 Q. So that in some instances it does trouble even the feeders 
 on the canal % 
 A. We have not been of late. 
 
 Q. In summer, when the water is low and you need all the 
 surplus you can get at Little Falls, when the wind blows east 
 to west, you don't get as much as when it blows from west to 
 east — the difficulties are the same in both instances % 
 
 A. Yes, sir. • 
 
 Q. When did you have charge of the middle division % 
 A. In 1859 and 1860. 
 
 By Mr. Sheard. — Q. Have you ever had practical experience 
 in towing by steam locomotive power ? 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. You merely testify to-day as an amateur, not an expert \ 
 
 A. As an amateur, yes ; I have calculated, of course, the 
 practicability of power and the method of towing, it is entirely 
 satisfactory to me. . 
 
 Q. Is your home at Albany, here % 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Sheard. — Q. Is this system of towing by locomotives 
 in active operation anywhere that you know of % 
 
 A. I am under the impression it is, on one of the canals of 
 Pennsylvania to a certain extent ; I do not know which canal. 
 
 Q. You do not know, then ? 
 
 A. I do not know. 
 
 Q. Is there any in any other country you know of? 
 
 A. I think there is a canal in France ; I cannot give any in- 
 formation about it. 
 
 Q. You have no practical knowledge or information as to the 
 practicability of the affair, only what you gained from your 
 knowledge as engineer ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. That you have reduced and obtained from mathematics % 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Crane. — Q. Did you say it made a saving of two cents 
 a bushel % 
 
 A. Two cents on a bushel of^ wheat. 
 
 Q, A boat will transport, under this system two cents less on 
 
54 
 
 a bushel of wheat or corn from Buffalo to New York, and make 
 as much money as at the present system \ 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. That is saving somebody, either the boatman or the pub- 
 lic, two cents a bushel '{ 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you ever seen a locomotive drawing the cars from 
 the St. John's Park, New York, to the up-town station, in the 
 upper end of the Island? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; often. 
 
 Q. Have you ever seen horses on the Harlem R. R. drawing 
 from Canal street up-town ? 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. How many horses does it take to draw cars loaded with 
 ten tons ? 
 
 A. Don't know ; I should judge four horses are used. 
 
 Q. Four horses it takes to move and start a ten-ton car ; have 
 you seen a locomotive take twenty cars and start them ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; the power of the engine proposed for towing 
 boats is equal to 46 horses at three miles an hour, at 160 pounds 
 for a horse ; on the average the canal engine proposed is equal 
 to forty horses. 
 
 Q. Put eighty horses to the boat in one direction and the lo- 
 comotive in^the other direction, in your judgment, will the loco- 
 motive take the boat and drag it astern ? 
 
 A. At forty horses the locomotive will hold them. 
 
 By Mr. Crane. — Q. My experience is that one concentrated 
 force will equal eighty horses, inasmuch as you cannot get the 
 horses to act in concert ? 
 
 A. That would depend upon the power of the locomotive. 
 
 By the Chairman. — Q. Would there be any question about 
 the expediency of moving at four miles an hour in the frequent 
 stoppages you have to make ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Sailing down the canal at four miles an hour with live 
 boats, each boat loaded with 240 tons and a lock near, can you 
 stop conveniently as you choose ? 
 
 A. Yes, no trouble about that. 
 
 Mr. Crane. — There are many ways of doing it if desirable ; 
 
65 
 
 and if the locks are so near together, and we get to a gate and 
 stop, it will regulate itself ; you can do what you desire with a 
 locomotive. 
 
 Witness. — Of course the engine can be reversed rapidly. 
 
 By the Chairman. — Q. What good would that do I 
 A. Check the momentum of the boat, take the line oif the 
 front, and pass it back and attach it to the centre of the train. 
 
 Mr. Crane. — Let the line remain in the end where it is, the 
 reversing of that engine will bring it to a dead centre, which 
 you can't do with horses ; there is no way in the world you can 
 handle a power you are moving as easily as by a simple con- 
 trivance in a locomotive. It would not be safe to put five boats 
 with a stiff connection between them ; the only way is to have a 
 flexible connection between those boats ; you can't do it any 
 other way. It requires a good deal of skill to put these boats 
 together, so you can couple them quick. It is very desirable 
 to have these boats when coupled, so that it is a flexible con- 
 nection, and to find out the right bend and make that connec- 
 tion. 
 
 By the Chairman.— Q. Do you think there would be any 
 serious difficulty in building these tracks through cities where 
 the buildings are close to the canal % 
 
 A. I think in cities like Utica, Syracuse and Rochester, the 
 berme track could be carried to the towing-path side of the 
 canal, and the present shipping facilities saved to those cities. 
 Or you could extend a row of pilings inside of a vertical wall 
 without checking the water — small iron columns ; it could be 
 done in that way. 
 
 By Mr. Sheard. — Q. Are you an incorporator i 
 A. I think I am ; I was a year ago. 
 Q. Are you a stockholder ? 
 A. I think I own a share of it. 
 
 By the Chairman.— Q. Did you subscribe for any stock I 
 A. A share, I think. 
 
 Mr. Crane. — The board has not been changed since it was 
 created a year ago. 
 
56 
 
 Henry S. Wells, called and testified as follows : 
 
 Q. Where do you reside ? 
 A. In the city of New York. 
 
 Q. What experience have you had, if any, in railroading for 
 the last 30 years, and other public works ? 
 
 A. I have been steadily engaged since 1847 in the construction 
 of public works, many of the important lines of the country ; 
 the New York & Erie, the Buffalo and State Line, the Client 
 Western of Canada, the Delaware, Lackawanna & Western, 
 the Lackawanna & Bloomsburgh in Pennsylvania, the Warren 
 R. R. of New Jersey, the Great Western of Canada, a portion 
 of the direct road between Syracuse and Rochester, and a road 
 in Georgia ; I have been engaged in the construction of canals, 
 and am one of the parties that bought of Pennsylvania the 
 North-Branch canal and operated that for a number of years ; 
 but that is now turned into a railroad ; have been engaged in 
 building the great ship canal at Lake Superior, and the entire 
 construction of the water-works of the city of Brooklyn. 
 
 Q. The entire construction of the Brooklyn Water Works I 
 
 A. Yes ; a contract of $5,000,000 successfully performed, and 
 many other works. 
 
 Q. Have you had occasion to inform yourself with regard to 
 this system of towing boats with this locomotive power, and if 
 so, how long since your attention was called to it, and what are 
 the results of your examinations \ 
 
 A. About three months ago my attention was first called to 
 it, and my opinion asked by a party in New York, who is inter- 
 ested in the commercial exchange ; a pamphlet was given me, 
 and I was asked my opinion upon the feasibility of drawing 
 boats by locomotive, and the practicability of the whole sys- 
 tem ; I told him I would look into it and examine the pamphlet 
 and the whole plan ; I determined that it was the project that 
 Mr. Jarvis had laid down in his report, and was perfectly 
 feasible and practicable, and from that time I have looked into 
 it with great care ; I think that is the proper way to increase 
 the capacity of the canal and make it valuable both for economy 
 in the towing of boats, and beneficial to the boatmen and the 
 State, and above all things, checking the great monopolies that 
 are controlling the prices of freight both East and West. The 
 power that is growing up and has got to its growth now, by 
 these great corporations that have been brought into existence 
 
57 
 
 by the act of the States, so concentrated that their powers are 
 almost irresistible ; I see no other power that can check them 
 except the power of the State of New York, through its great 
 natural facilities. That the State of New York can do with 
 great benefit to herself, the West, the Eastern States, and to the 
 whole world, because you may say a great part of Europe is 
 dependent upon us, not only lor grain, but for cattle ; and the 
 prosperity of the West is to be benefited by a cheaper method 
 of transportation. 
 
 Q. How did this canal in Pennsylvania come to be turned into 
 a railroad ? 
 
 A. We purchased the north branch of the Pennsylvania 
 Canal, and the State of New York were under a contract with 
 the State of Pennsylvania, to keep up a dam at the State Line, 
 and connected the north branch of the Pennsylvania Canal up 
 the Susquehanna, with the Chemung Canal at Elmira ; the State 
 of New York refused to carry out that contract, and the conse- 
 quence was, it made a break there of 17 miles that made the 
 canal substantially useless ; and the canal was sold by consent 
 of the State of Pennsylvania to the Lehigh Valley R. R. Co., 
 and they availed themselves of it. 
 
 Q. Did the} 7 make provisions in the sale that they should 
 maintain the canal \ 
 
 A. They bought the controlling interests of the stock of the 
 canal. 
 
 Q. Was it a corporation ( 
 
 A. The State sold it to a corporation, but then gave permis- 
 sion to change it from a canal to a railroad. 
 
 Q. Have you had any practical experience in towing by steam * 
 power \ 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Never saw it done ? 
 A. Never saw it done. 
 
 Q. Do you know any place where it is now in actual opera- 
 tion ? 
 A. I do not. 
 
 Q, Never heard of any \ 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Practically you do not know anything about its results \ 
 A. I never saw it done ; I have no more doubt of the possi- 
 bility of doing it than I have of walking to the hotel. 
 
58 
 
 Q.Tractically you know nothing about it ? 
 A. I say I have never seen it done ; but I know it can be 
 done. 
 
 i Q. You know what I mean by practical experience ? 
 A. I have seen cars hauled by locomotives. 
 Q. Have you ever seen this system tried ? 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. You have not any practical knowledge about it ? 
 A. I have no practical knowledge of drawing canal boats by 
 locomotives. 
 
 By the Chairman. — Q. You are a contractor ? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Crane. — Q. You have no question in your own mind 
 but that a locomotive of forty-horse power, three driving-wheels, 
 on the banks of a canal, with a tow-line, has the power of mov- 
 ing a train of five boats as fast as it is safe to go through that 
 canal ? 
 
 A. I have not the slightest doubt of it. 
 
 D. E. Culver, civil engineer, being called, testified as fol- 
 lows : 
 
 Examined by Mr. Crane : 
 
 Q. Have you knowledge, if so, what, of the character of the 
 country on the west bank of the Hudson River from Albany to 
 New York, as regards the building of a line of railroad over 
 that section ? 
 
 A. . I'm well acquainted with that country; I have walked 
 over it twice. 
 
 Q. State to the committee the feasibility of that shore, with 
 regard to the construction of a railroad from Albany to New 
 York % 
 
 A. I consider it very feasible. 
 
 Q. In your judgment; would $10,000,000 build a double track 
 railroad from Bergen Ridge to Albany % 
 
 A. I believe it would do it ; it would cover it ; I should be 
 willing to take the contract. 
 
 Q. Is there a population on that side of the river that would 
 be benefited by that improvement ? 
 
59 
 
 A. I consider it would be a benefit for personal convenience 
 and the profit of trade, and by affording the facilities they do 
 not now have to business men and residents of that section of 
 the State of New York. 
 
 Q. Have you had occasion to come in contact upon this side 
 with people living upon that line % 
 
 A. I think the people on the west shore are in favor of the 
 construction of such a line, and desire it very much. 
 
 Q. You have heard the evidence % 
 
 A. Yes, sir. . 
 
 Q. Have you any question but what a locomotive placed upon 
 the banks of the canal is a practical working machine, and can 
 be made to do what it purports to do, in drawing boats by loco- 
 motives \ 
 
 A. I have no doubt of its entire feasibility, andj the plan, if 
 carried out, will prove to be successful. I have no doubt but 
 what it will be perfectly successful. Mr. Jar vis is a perfectly 
 safe man, and fully understands all the questions in the case. 
 I think any man, any engineer, would say that Mr. Jarvis is a 
 perfectly safe man to follow, one of ripe experience, and who 
 understands all the questions that are to be taken into consid- 
 eration and determined in a matter of this kind. I have seen 
 the system of towing byjlocomotives on a canal tried and proved 
 to be effective. 
 
 Q. You have % 
 
 A. Yes, sir, that is I have seen it tried in my own State, the 
 State of New Jersey, on the Delaware and Raritan canal, be- 
 tween Trenton and Dean's pond, many years ago by Mr. Stevens, 
 that is between Dean's pond station, a little below there on 
 the Raritan canal. When the track was first laid, it was laid 
 on the tow-path of the canal : since that time the railroad has 
 been changed and straightened ; the bank of the canal was 
 crooked, but while that was lying there, Mr. Steven's, tried that 
 experiment of towing barges and sailing vessels by locomotive 
 power in fleets, somewhat as proposed here. 
 
 Q. Is there any question as to the power of the locomotive to 
 do it? 
 
 A. None. 
 
 Q. Is the locomotive dragged into the canal because it is 
 drawing diagonally % 
 A. No, sir. 
 
60 
 
 Q. Then from personal knowledge and what was done there, 
 you have no question in your own mind about this case here ? 
 
 A. I have none from the natural reasoning powers that 1 have, 
 even if I had not seen or known of that ; I have no doubt of its 
 feasibility. 
 
 Q. Is there an opening below Haverstraw to get down to 
 N ew Jersey and Bergen Ridge 2 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; there is a very low valley there on Hackensack 
 river ; probably extends to within^less than one-half a mile of 
 the Hudson river. 
 
 The Chairman. — Is that still in operation there ? 
 
 A. No, sir ; it was a mere experiment. 
 Q. How long ago was it tried \ 
 A. I think about 15 years ago. 
 Q. It was abandoned 1 
 A. Yes, sir ; it was merely an experiment. 
 Q. Then by their not continuing it, it was apparent it was not 
 practicable ? 
 
 A. No, sir ; I did not take it so ; the circumstances under 
 which the experiment was made — I understood the reasons 
 why it was not put into effect were on account of the peculiar 
 location of that canal, the shortness of it, the expense that 
 would be required ; it was found in that case that it would re- 
 quire a track on each bank of the canal, and they would be 
 compelled to put a track on the other bank of the canal, as 
 they had a large and growing railroad business that occupied 
 that track ; instead of building another track, they cut across 
 the country, and it made a straight line of about 20 miles in 
 length ; by leaving the canal they abandoned the project from 
 the advantage gained to the railroad traffic ; the canal com- 
 pany at that time was separate from the railroad company, 
 but Mr. Stevens was a large stockholder in it ; this was Edwin 
 A. Stevens, who lived at Hoboken. 
 
 Q. It was on account of the rivalry at that time that it was 
 not put into effect ? 
 
 A. I was in the employ of Mr. Stevens at that time ; I heard 
 some talk in his house in Hoboken, and I learned from it that 
 he had made this experiment and satisfied himself that the cal- 
 culations which were made, taking into account the cost, loca- 
 tion and the difficulties attendant upon getting a unity of in- 
 
61 
 
 terest and the increased business of the railroad and the deter- 
 mination to straighten and change its line, prevented him from 
 going further with it. 
 
 Q. What company was this 8 
 
 A. It was the Camdem and Amboy railroad company that 
 controlled the railroad since that time ; an act which was passed 
 in New Jersey has united the railroads. 
 
 By the Chairman. — Does the Pennsylvania Central also con- 
 trol the Delaware and Raritan canal % 
 
 A. It controls the united companies of which the Delaware 
 and Raritan was one. 
 
 Q. Since the consolidation of those interests, if the experi- 
 ment was practicable, why didn't they get on with it ? 
 
 A. I am not able to say ; I have no interest in that enterprise; 
 my opinion is that on account of the shortness of the canal and 
 its capacity to carry large steam tugs through it, and because 
 they have steam towing there in that way ; and it would not be 
 of advantage to a short canal like this as it would be on a canal 
 like the Erie. 
 
 By Mr. Sheard. — How long was this canal s 
 
 A. I think about 40 miles. 
 
 Q. Were there many lockages \ 
 
 A. Not very many ; no, sir. 
 
 Q. In what capacity did you traverse the west shore of the 
 Hudson twice afoot \ 
 
 A. As owner of a part of the Jersey City and Albany rail- 
 road ; I went up and down that river with a view to determine 
 in my own mind what it would cost to complete that railroad. 
 
 Q. There has been a survey made of the west shore with the 
 idea of building a railroad \ 
 
 H. I understand so, or of some portion of it. 
 
 Q. What was the name of that company ? 
 
 A. I think there was two companies besides the one I am in- 
 terested in. One was the New York and Chicago and Buffalo, 
 or some such title, and the other was the New York an^d 
 Albany ; I think the West Shore and Chicago is all one concern. 
 
 Q. Do you know why that was not constructed ? 
 
 A. I have heard : I understood that some of the projectors of 
 that company made a loan of live or six millions, that they got 
 
62 
 
 an advance of one and a half millions and they spent that con- 
 trary to the terms of the. loan, and the parties who had agreed 
 to advance the money refused to advance any more. 
 
 Q. Have they any rights or titles on your line now 3 
 
 A. The road has been recently foreclosed. 
 
 Q. Would that interfere in any way with that proposed line 
 line from here to New York ? 
 
 A. No, sir ; I think not. 
 
 Q. It has no connection with it, has it, that you know of % 
 
 A. None at all ; I do not think there would be any difficulty 
 under the railroad law of New York State to proceed to build 
 it at once, by parties having the required capital ; I think the 
 road is all free and open. 
 
 Q. Is this railroad company now in existence as a company — 
 the West Shore \ 
 
 A. I think not ; it is only recently the sale has been effect- 
 ed ; they were obliged to go through some form of organiza- 
 tion, and whether they have done that I do not know. 
 
 Q. They are in existence, are they not — perhaps Mr. Crane 
 can answer ? 
 
 Mr. Crane. — The sale has been effected, foreclosing the first 
 mortgage, and the stockholders have no rights. They are dis- 
 possessed, and the railroad is bought in for $35,000, under an 
 order of the Court ; those appointed holders are mostly in 
 Europe, and are ready to do anything they can get anything 
 out of ; where it is now, it is entirely valueless. There are two 
 or three corporations that may be availed of ; I can state here 
 what arrangements have been made to perfect this line on the 
 west shore, and I will say this : If the Legislature see fit to 
 pass this bill, within 30 days of its passage there will be a per- 
 fect and complete organization, with adequate capital to com- 
 plete a line along the Hudson river to New York. 
 
 By Mr. Sheard. — Does this project have anything to do with 
 the parties who have bought out the original stockholders of 
 the Chicago and West Shore Railroad % 
 
 * Mr. Crane. —Nothing whatever, direct or indirect, within 
 my knowledge ; they are the same parties precisely who have 
 put themselves together for the purpose of completing and per- 
 fecting a continuous line of railroad from Buffalo through to 
 
63 
 
 New York, that have this in charge, and I will say here to the 
 committee that if it was proper to give the names, some of the 
 most eminent men of New York city, capitalists and real estate 
 owners, men adequate to command the entire confidence of the 
 the people, are among the number ; but I am not at liberty to 
 give their names ; I have simply laid this work out. 
 
 There are a body of men connected with the Produce Ex- 
 change of New York who understand this subject thoroughly. 
 I have visited personally more than four hundred firms in. the 
 city of New York within the last twelve months, until I know 
 their inmost surroundings, and could I give you here the his- 
 tory of some young men in New York, who are trying to get 
 their living, you would see that two-thirds of that body of men 
 were being ruined because of the system of drawbacks givan to 
 large dealers. 
 
 By the Chairman. — The committee want to get at the expe- 
 diency and practicability of it. 
 
 Mr. Sheard, to the witness. — You know personally of this 
 towage, of the system on the canals in New Jersey. 
 
 A. I saw the boats being towed, and then I heard from the 
 engineer of the canal and the president some details ; the track 
 was laid upon one side of the canal ; on the regular side they 
 were doing the railroad business then. 
 
 Q. It happened to lie parallel to the canal, and near enough 
 to use the tow-line ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; the track was probably as near to the canal 
 there, as under ordinary circumstances it would be, if there was 
 a boat there to tow. 
 
 Q. It was not laid there for that purpose ? 
 
 A. No, sir; but because of the grading of the canal ; we 
 could lay a track there and use it from Trenton to Brunswick, 
 and so on to New York. 
 
 Q. You had no capacity in this company, so you could not 
 say definitely whether it was a success financially or not ? 
 . A. No ; I merely heard in conversation with these gentlemen 
 and Mr. Stevens himself, that he considered it practicable ; that 
 is, that these boats could be towed by locomotives, and if the 
 circumstances were favorable it would be a feasible thing to do. 
 
 Q. You never heard the cost ? 
 
 A. No, sir ; nothing farther than that. 
 
64 
 
 Q. It is a fact that a great many of the railroads of New Jer- 
 sey run parallel with the canal for some distance, near enough 
 to attach a tow-line to an engine and draw a boat i 
 
 A. They did at that time; thisonedid. 
 
 Q. There was not any others that did I 
 
 A. Not that I know of ; no, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Crane. — You spoke of the short-cut ; wasn't that 
 really the object the railroad had to keep possession of the 
 ground for fear some one else would take it I 
 
 A. No ; I should think not. 
 
 By Mr. Sheard. — I have noticed traveling through New Jer- 
 sey there were tracks, and my idea was to get the practical op- 
 eration of this, whether any other railroad company had tried 
 the system or not \ 
 
 A. The Belvedere road for a short distance traverses the 
 banks of this canal ; at that time we used a part of the same 
 line, and the cars passed over that piece of track and along the 
 bank of the canal ; one branch continued east on the New 
 Brunswick, and the other branched off to the feeder, and so on 
 up the Delaware river ; I guess that track does now run along 
 the bank of the canal. 
 
 Q. You know of no other place there in this or any other 
 country where the system has been tried \ 
 
 A. I have no practical information. 
 
 By Mr. Craxe. — How many miles in length was this track \ 
 A. I think it must have been probably 12 or 15 miles where it 
 lay near the canal, and then it verged. 
 
 By the Chairman. — You saw this experiment tried your- 
 self \ 
 
 A. I passed by and saw the locomotive actually towing the 
 boat. 
 
 A. So you can speak of that from actual experience, that it 
 seemed to be successful ! 
 
 A. They seemed to be towing them along certainly, as fast as 
 three or four miles an hour. 
 
 Q. This twelve miles, is it straight ? 
 
 A. No, sir ; a good many crooks. 
 
 Q. Did they find any difficulty in butting them against the 
 bank % 
 
65 
 
 A. No, sir ; I did not see any ; I watched them for half a 
 mile ; I heard that the experiment, so far as the movement of 
 the boats was concerned, was entirely successful. 
 
 Q. You think at turning points there was difficulty ? 
 
 A. I think if the boats were coupled together before the ex- 
 periment was put into working, with a coupling something like 
 that of cars only longer, with a stiff part between the part that 
 moves there by some ball and socket joint-hinged, or something 
 of that kind ; I don't believe there would beany difficulty what- 
 ever in steering the boats around the curves ; I think the for- 
 ward and rear boats would be all that it would be necessary to 
 steer, and that these would not steer any harder from being- 
 coupled than to go alone. 
 
 Q. Then there is no objection that you have heard of or saw 
 in going around the bends of this canal % 
 
 A. I never heard there was any difficulty in this experiment 
 so far as the practical result of towing by the locomotive and 
 running through the canal was^concerned. 
 
 By Me. Crane. — You had that from Mr. Stevens himself ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; and also from the President of the canal ; 1 was 
 employed as engineer by Mr. Stevens ; I should have been like- 
 ly to have known if there had been a failure ; I was employed 
 in some other work at that time ; I was in his employ, I think 
 altogether about eight years. 
 
 Q. How long did they continue this system ? 
 
 A. It was introduced only as an experiment for several days. 
 
 Q. During that time you only saw it as you passed by % 
 
 A. Only once, and that was about a half mile in my view. 
 
 By Me. Sheaed. — Who was president of this canal compa- 
 ny % 
 
 A. His name was also Stevens ; he was a relative of Edwin. 
 Q. Can' t you give his full name % 
 
 A. I am very defective in remembering names of people ; I 
 guess it was John G. 
 
 Q. I suppose these tracks could be built parallel with the 
 canal, even around the curves \ 
 
 A. There is no trouble about a three-feet gauge. 
 
 Me. Ceane.— There is not a curve in the Erie canal, to my 
 knowledge, but what the railroad track put upon that bank will 
 
66 
 
 be an easier curve than many we are passing every day of the 
 week, and that one of the shortest curves we have in New 
 England is on the Norwich and Worcester railroad, about 175 
 feet, and at that curve Mr. Laure, the chief engineer, and other 
 engineers were called into requisition, who told the superinten- 
 dent if he built that curve they could not pass it when they got it 
 up ; one of the directors said : "I don't care what you practical 
 engineers say, I want that curve put up just as I told you ; they 
 put it up ; the ordinary train runs there, and has passed there 
 and never had an accident yet ; that sh ows the difference be- 
 tween engineering on paper and one of practical results, and 
 some of the most eminent engineers ridicule the idea of that 
 ever being used when done, and there is not a curve on the line 
 of your canal but what is double that radius. 
 
 Mr. Crane. — I will say that I have boatmen in New York, 
 and I have boatmen at Buffalo, on different lines of canal, 
 which I propose to bring here as the case proceeds, if it is -called 
 in question what this proposed plan will be for the boatmen ; 
 if parties say boatmen are opposed to it, I wish to bring men 
 who have been opposed to it, who are now its friends, after in- 
 vestigation ; until the committee is satisfied, I wish to reserve 
 that as rebutting testimony ; if when the parties come here to 
 oppose it, if we find it necessaiy, we shall bring in the rebutting 
 testimony, and then I desire to present all the evidence, and 
 give it to you in concise and compact form. 
 
 Mr. Ames, recalled, testified : 
 Examination by the Chairman : 
 
 Q. You referred to the Constitution in regard to the canals of 
 the State ; I desire to ask you whether in your opinion you 
 think there would be anything in the passage of this bill in 
 contravention to the spirit and letter of the Constitution \ 
 
 A. I have never considered that there was any point in the 
 question that would interfere with the Constitution. The cana[ 
 is perpetual; " forever, " is the word I think that is used. 
 This railroad would be a part and parcel of the canal, owned 
 by the State, improved by this improvement, and still under 
 the same Constitution that the canal has been for the last fifty 
 years. I would regard it as nothing more than an improve. 
 
67 
 
 ment to make the canal more profitable and give greater facili- 
 ties. 
 
 Mr. Crane, addressing the committee : 
 
 We owe you an apology ; I meant to have made it earlier in 
 the case. In coming here in the middle of March, after you 
 had been in session down to March, with a matter of so great 
 importance, my reason was simply this : In conversation with 
 one of the most eminent lawyers of New York, he put this 
 question : 
 
 " Mr. Crane, have you ever examined the Constitution of the 
 State of New York as amended ! " I said, " I have an old Con- 
 stitution before it was amended. " I did not look into it. He 
 says : "I have looked over your bill as you have it printed in 
 pamphlet, and I think there are some points to be questioned 
 with regard to its constitutionality. " 
 
 I felt that I could not ask any man to pass unconstitutional 
 measures, but I propose to perform my duties directly under 
 the Constitution. I said to him, " Wil you take up the question ; 
 give it your careful consideration. " I have been delayed upon 
 that question more than five weeks, and when the next hearing- 
 comes on, we are going to ask the committee do this. The bill 
 before you is still under advisement, and that bill will be 
 amended ; and the reason why we amend it is to give you an 
 amended bill so the committee can say: u Gentlemen, in that 
 bill, counsel tell us there is no infringment of the Constitution 
 whatever. " This party is one of the most eminent counsel in 
 New York City. A member of Assembly said to me recently, 
 " Mr. Crane, waiting so long, looks as though there was a catch 
 somewhere. " I told him there were good and substantial rea- 
 sons and we could furnish them to the committee. 
 
 The Chairman. — The committee desire to act with candor 
 and frankness in this matter, but this seems like an innovation. 
 
 Mr. Crane. — Yes, sir ; and I offered this apology for that 
 reason. 
 
 Mr. Sheard. — Has there been any conclusion reached by 
 counsel as to whether the bill is constitutional or not ? 
 
68 
 
 Mr, Crane. — We [will ask you to do nothing but what you 
 ran do constitutionally. 
 
 The Chairman. — If it comes to a constitutional question we 
 will notify you and give you another hearing. I think we have 
 so far as we have gone, a very good knowledge of the testimony 
 of 'yourself and others, as to your views of the expediency of 
 it. If the constitutional question arises I am willing to grant 
 a hearing on that ; on the other hand if there is opposition to 
 this bill of course gentlemen will come forth. 
 
 Mr. Ames, recalled : 
 By the Chairman : 
 Q. Are you an incorporator 1 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. A subscriber in stock % 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Crane. — There are three incorporators at Oswegt), Mr. 
 Ames, Mr. Doolittle and Mr. Page. 
 
 Mr. Sheard — In breaking the bulk of grain this question as 
 to the effect the Welland canal will have upon the traffic upon 
 the Erie canal is very much dwelled upon. One of the bugbears 
 held up is this — the grain will go from the West, East to Liver- 
 pool without breaking bulk — do you believe that to be prob- 
 able in the near future % 
 
 A. No, I do not ; my reasons are that the vessels that are 
 adapted to the lake navigation are not adapted to the ocean, 
 and the cargoes they carry are so small as compared with ocean 
 vessels that they are not likely to make it profitable ; if they 
 could go down the St. Lawrence they could go with barges 
 cheaper than they could with vessels. 
 
 Q. In relation to handling the grain, which you said over- 
 came the expenses of shipment, why would it not do so profit- 
 ably to carry the grain in bulk as to occasionally break the 
 bulk and give it air ? 
 
 A. I do not know as there was any advantage beyond the 
 fact that it merely gives it an airing ; when grain lies too long 
 in the vessel or boat, it is apt to gather moisture, heat and must; 
 being aired by elevator, dispels whatever may be accumulated 
 of moisture or mold, therefore it is put into another or the same 
 vessel and handled again soon. If a vessel comes from Chicago 
 
69 
 
 to Oswego we run it through an elevator and to a canal boat, 
 and in New York it is elevated and put into a ship. 
 
 Q. You said this handling actually increased the value of the 
 grain % 
 
 A. I did say it was an advantage, but it is not an advantage 
 that would increase the price or its value other than to prevent 
 damage and preserve its quality. 
 
 Q. The idea of equalling at this point is this ; of course you 
 may increase the traffic of the canal or its capacity by adding 
 steam towage ; but you do not propose to change the fact that 
 they must break their bulk. There must be these elevator 
 charges, etc. My idea of last night tended to show how and 
 why the canal traffic would actually be kept up ; do I under- 
 stand that the actual advantage to the grain when placed in 
 market by being elevated, will overcome these technical 
 charges \ 
 
 A. I would hardly think there would be an increased value to 
 overcome the charge of elevating ; it can be done for \ of a 
 cent. In the way I meant by preventing damage of long lying, 
 that obviates the probabilities of damage or danger. 
 
 Q. There would always be a certain amount of risk in ship- 
 ping grain to the East and not breaking bulk until you get to the 
 seaboard. 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; it is accounted really as a risk, because people 
 usually calculate to buy sound grain and to handle it in a man- 
 ner that shall not accumulate damage and therefore it don't 
 come into particular account. 
 
 Q. In case you bought so many bushels of grain in Chicago 
 to be shipped to the seaboard and you could ship it through 
 the Welland canal without breaking bulk or through the* Buf- 
 falo, Erie and Hudson with breaking bulk, which route, natur- 
 ally studying your own interests, would you choose \ 
 
 A. It has got to be handled if it goes by way of Montreal, for 
 the reason there has never been a cargo sent from the western 
 lakes to Europe ; there has been lumber, etc., but I have no 
 knowledge of grain. 
 
 Q. Will it be when the Welland canal is open the same % 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. This bugbear of being obliged to ship through without 
 breaking bulk is in fact simply a bugbear % 
 A. It is. 
 
70 
 
 THIRD DAY'S HEARING. 
 
 Tuesday, March 25, 1879. 
 
 Mr. Crane — I have received a letter from Mr. Darius A. 
 Ogden, ex-Canal Commissioner, which I desire to present to the 
 committee. 
 
 Letter from Darius A. Ogden. 
 
 Penn Yan, March 20, 1879. 
 
 Mr. Crane : 
 
 My Dear Sir — Could I have remained in Albany I would 
 have said to the Canal Committee, that from the partial ex- 
 amination I have give your system of towing boats on the 
 canals by means of an iron track and locomotive, it was practi- 
 cable, and that loaded boats by this means could be propelled 
 at least three and a half (3£) miles an hour (I think with great- 
 er speed), which fact would of itself more than double the ca- 
 pacity of the Erie canal for transportation. That is, you 
 could move twice as many loaded boats in any given time 
 from Buffalo to Albany. (The speed for light or partially 
 loaded boats from Albany to Buffalo could be increased to five 
 miles an hour.) To begin with, then, you have more than 
 double the capacity of your canal without expense to the 
 State ; thus it is proposed to tow the boats at less than half the 
 expense of the present cost of towing ; thus cheapening navi- 
 gation, and thus inviting the increased business which the in- 
 creased capacity will enable you to carry. Would not this ca- 
 pacity to carry with the low or cheap transportation secure to 
 you beyond question the carrying trade for the productions of 
 the great West, as well as those of the western part of your 
 own State, and can you retain this with the competition of 
 Canada's Public Works and the river St. Lawrence in any 
 other way ? 
 
 Again, the result of this system will necessarily strengthen 
 and render more permanent the canal itself. To place an iron 
 
71 
 
 railway on either side of the canal, its whole length, will give 
 solidity to its banks, will diminish the liability to breaks and 
 injury, will facilitate repairs in case breaks do occur, will put 
 the entire canal under constant watch and care for its whole 
 length ; it will be an iron-bound canal, with permanent banks, 
 and under constant surveillance, and boatmen would feel en- 
 tirely secure in navigating its waters thus hemmed in and 
 guarded, and all this secured without cost to the State ; instead 
 of drying up this canal, it would most certainly perpetuate it, 
 and make it as secure a waterway and route as could be — more 
 secure than a natural river, subject to its floods and its low 
 water. This system, doing what it proposes, gives the great de- 
 sideratum permanence to your canals, with capacity and ex- 
 treme cheapness of transportation. Are there doubts as to the 
 results, let them be solved by actual experiment, put a proviso 
 in the bill, that the bill shall not go into effect, or work begin, 
 until a practical test or experiment has been made under the 
 supervision of the State Engineer or Superintendent of Public 
 Works, and their certificate of its feasibility. This certainly 
 would take away all obligation, and a project which promises 
 such grand results has a right to be thus tested, the object 
 being to secure and perfect our canal system, to put it beyond 
 danger for the future, and to secure to the State and the people 
 the great advantages to result therefrom. I am heartily in favor 
 of perpetuating the canals ; we can't afford to lose them, and 
 must not. 
 
 This railway towing tracks laid down guarding and protect- 
 ing the canals, subject to the control of the State authorities, 
 what possible objection to their carrying freight and passengers 
 in the winter or in the summer, if done so as not to impede or 
 endanger canal navigation, would it not result in good to the 
 people, would it not cheapen transportation by opening fair and 
 proper competition, would it not protect the people from the 
 extortion of great monopolies, and would not the public good 
 be subserved thereby \ but are questions which I do not pro- 
 pose to discuss. The committee, I am sure, will grasp the whole 
 question and give it a fair and candid examination, keeping in 
 view the perpetuation and improvement of our canals, and 
 the best possible system for reducing the cost of transportation 
 on them. The waterways north of us are our competitors, and 
 
72 
 
 we must see to it that they do not bring us to grief by increased 
 facilities while we remain idle. 
 
 Yours truly, 
 
 D. A. OGDEN. 
 
 Mr. Crane for the petitioners, stated that if they could have 
 thirty minutes, they would be able to close their case, and would 
 agree that the opponents of the bill might close either at a pub- 
 lic hearing or in writing, as they might agree. This was acceded 
 to by the committee. 
 
 Opportunity was then given for any other parties present for 
 or against the bill to speak. 
 
 Mr. J. W. Culver, an attorney from New York city, spoke in 
 behalf of several clients, boatmen having large boating interests 
 upon the canals, as follows : 
 
 Mr. J. W. Culver appeared before the committee and said: 
 Mr. Chairman, I have a number of clients who are boatmen, and 
 a number of them have been to my office in New York within 
 the last week, respecting this bill, and I have been requested 
 to come here to look on and hear ; I have some clients who are 
 important forwarders, having offices in New York and Buffalo, 
 who own a great many boats. Now, I desire to say, that so far 
 as my connection has developed, the} r are unacquainted with 
 the feasibility of the enterprise of towing boats by steam upon 
 rails, but they are uniformly in favor of this or any other plan 
 tli at can be devised, by which they can get rid of their horse 
 power for the propulsion of boats. They told me that it cost 
 them from 17 to 20 cents per mile to tow their boats by animal 
 power ; they are not in favor of a railroad unless it is a better 
 plan, but if it is, they will be in favor of it, and hope for the 
 passage of a bill that will relieve them in that direction. They 
 have pretty substantially told me there was no money in boat- 
 ing as it has been carried on for the last few years, and that it 
 has been in consequence of low freight, and the expense in tow- 
 ing their boats, wear and tear, and slow mode of transportation 
 in competing with steam railroads. Now, I know nothing about 
 this. I simply want to place before the committee what has been 
 said to me by these persons, that they are in favor of any plan 
 
73 
 
 that will relieve them ; but they do not know, they have not 
 investigated, and it would, of course, require experiment or 
 some other education to develop the soheme as being practi- 
 cable. 
 
 The Chairman. — I desire to ask Mr. Culver if you represent 
 any number of boatmen in the matter \ 
 
 Mr. Culver. — Only, sir, in the way I have stated. They have « 
 taken an interest in this thing ; some of them are owners of 
 boats, and some of them forwarders. I have spoken to them 
 with reference to this boat-owners 1 association, and they have 
 said there was an association of boatmen in New York. I do 
 not think any of my people belong to it ; I do not know that 
 they do. I inquired of some of them, and they did not belong- 
 to it. 
 
 The Chairman. — From what they told you, are you under 
 the impression that this plan will be feasible \ 
 
 Mr. Culver. — They were acquainted with it ; they thought 
 if it would do the work they would like to have it. 
 
 The Chairman. — Were they willing to take the chances ? 
 
 . Mr. Culver. — They were, if experienced men would approve 
 , it as I understood it. 
 
 Mr. Sheard. — Mr. Culver, from your intercourse with boat- 
 men, I suppose you have heard some objection to this principle ? 
 
 Mr. Culver. — I have not ; I have heard from some of them 
 that they knew men who were opposed to it. 
 
 Q. So far as you are able to judge, does not the objection 
 arise more from the fear that it may ultimately dry up the 
 canal, than it does to the proposed system of towing which the 
 bill provides for % 
 
 Mr. Culver. — I do not think I have heard that suggested. 
 They are very jealous of the Central railroad. Some of them 
 did not know but what it might be a war on the part of the 
 Central railroad to get possession of the canals. I think that 
 was about the only theory that was advanced in that direction. 
 
 Q. So far as your experience with the boatmen goes, if the 
 
74 
 
 fact could be fully demonstrated and proved that it was not for 
 the purpose of drying up the canals, and driving boatmen 
 entirely from their occupation that they would not be so much 
 opposed to the introduction of the system? 
 
 A. So far as my observation, experience and interchange 
 with these men go, I think they would be in favor of it. 
 
 Q. If it were not for that fear, generally speaking ? 
 
 A. I think so. 
 
 By the Chairman. — Q. Did they believe it to be practicable \ 
 
 A. There are not many that I have talked with that really 
 know much about it ; they think it is a new thing, and almost 
 everything they see now is possible, and there are so many im- 
 provements they would like to see it tried. 
 
 Q. Do you think they favor a trial of this % 
 
 A. I think they would like to see the experiment tried. 
 
 Q. How many boatmen do you represent ? 
 
 A. There is one house that I represent which owns a large 
 fleet of boats, and a number of men — I do not know how many, 
 I think four or five — have been to my office. 
 
 By Mr. Valkenburgh. — Q. Are these gentlemen you repre- 
 sent owners of boats % 
 
 A. Every one of them. ( 
 Q. Who run their own boats % 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; and one firm owns a good many, probably fifty. 
 
 Mr. H. E. Tremain, of New York city, in behalf of the peti- 
 tioners, proceeded and made the closing argument as follows : 
 
 Closing argument by Mr. Henry Edwin Trem ain, 
 of New York. 
 Gentlemen of the Committee : 
 
 This measure is neither a private nor a local one. It concerns 
 the whole people of the State. It affects the State as a com- 
 mercial, social, and therefore political power, and it affects its 
 inhabitants in their individual interests. It touches the finan- 
 ces of the State, its revenues, its appropriations, and its ex- 
 penditures. It touches the operations of gigantic corporations 
 and the personal industries of various classes and localities. It 
 
75 
 
 touches the public and private usefulness of our great highway s ; 
 the present service and future prospects of our canals; and it pre- 
 ends to accomplish their immediate and permanent improve- 
 ment, without the appropriation of a dollar. Without being 
 radical in its nature, without being one step in advance or 
 indeed scarcely coincident with the progressive spirit of our 
 age, no proposition has been before the Legislature for many 
 years more directly calculated to influence the material interests « 
 of our great commonwealth. 
 
 If it be true that the measure under consideration solves the 
 problem of cheap transportation from the lakes to the seaboard, 
 and secures appropriate and reduced prices for through and 
 local traffic, with fixed and uniform rates at all seasons of the 
 year ; if it be true that costly improvements may be made to 
 the State canals without taxation ; if it be true that the annual 
 expenses of keeping the canals in repair may be diminished and 
 their revenues increased, while, at the same time, tolls may be 
 lowered ; if it be true that canal boats may be towed by loco- 
 motive power on the Erie Canal at less rate per mile than is now 
 charged per mile on the Hudson River ; if it be true that canal 
 boats thus towed may make eleven trips per season, while now 
 the average does not exceed seven trips ; if it be true that boat 
 owners are now running their boats without substantial profit) 
 while by the new system they may increase their business up- 
 wards of fifty per cent., while lessening their expenses ; if it be 
 true that the canal revenues may be increased from the subsidi- 
 ary traffic inevitable upon the introduction of this system of 
 towage by locomotives ; and if it be true that all these benefits 
 may be achieved without interfering with the existing rights of 
 any individual or corporation, and without impairing the unre- 
 stricted and perpetual control of the canals as now vested in the 
 State of New York ; then who will undertake to give any other 
 than an affirmative answer to the question, Shall this measure 
 prevail ? 
 
 By the proceedings before this committee you have addressed 
 yourselves, Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, towards demon- 
 strating these facts. 
 
 Divesting myself, as far as possible, from the natural preju- 
 dice attendant upon the professional advocate, my own convic- 
 tion is clear that, upon the conceded facts available to all who 
 examine this interesting subject, and upon the evidence adduced 
 
76 
 
 during the patient and discriminating investigation conducted 
 by this committee, there is but one conclusion upon each and 
 all of the several inquiries I have thus contingently pro- 
 pounded. 
 
 Cheap transportation, gentlemen, depends in the first instance 
 upon the capital requiring income from the traffic. As between 
 two lines of communication, the one requiring earnings on a 
 capital of one hundred million, and the other requiring a return 
 upon only twenty-five million, the latter can always afford, 
 other things being equal, to do the business the cheaper. 
 
 That under existing combinations there is a discrimination in 
 freights from the West against New York, and in favor of 
 Baltimore by five cents a to??, and in favor of Philadelphia by 
 three cents, may be partially explained from the circumstance 
 that the Baltimore and Ohio Railroad requires to earn interest, 
 as stated before this committee, on only about fifty million 
 dollars between Baltimore and Chicago ; while the New York 
 Central must earn or strive to earn between Buffalo and New 
 York a return of over seven per cent, (on the average) on one 
 hundred and fifty-two million, and the Erie say six per cent, 
 on one hundred and twenty million. 
 
 While New York lines were not obliged to compete with 
 those other great artificial avenues of commerce, which are 
 drawing through their business that naturally belongs to New 
 York, our Erie Canal acted as a regulator ; and indeed, pai> 
 tially, though with abated influence, performs that office still. 
 At the close of navigation, however, freights are at the mercy 
 of this capitalized power. 
 
 The New York roads too, with their larger capital requiring 
 income in competing for the traffic of the great West, are large- 
 ly at the mercy of the roads south of us. The capital of the 
 Central, for instance, as between New York and Chicago, is 
 about $220,000,000, on which an earning must be made ; as 
 against 886,000,000 only of the Baltimore and Ohio on $36,000- 
 000, of which, because it is the accumulation from surplus earn- 
 ings, no interest need be earned ; or as against $180,000,000 of 
 the Pennsylvania Central. In this condition of railroad 
 finances, when will New York cease to be, as it is now, at the 
 mercy of its rival lines ? 
 
 If the capital on which income is to be paid is but twenty- 
 six million, and if the outside rates are fixed by the State, as in 
 
77 
 
 this bill proposed, and made capable after a few years, under 
 the State's ownership, of being adjusted upon the basis of act- 
 ual cost of transportation, then the great commercial problem 
 of New York is solved. 
 
 Leaving out of question any possibilities concerning the exe- 
 cution of the project, a RAILROAD SUBSIDIARY TO THE 
 CANAL, owned by the State, run temporarily by a company 
 under contract with the State, to tow boats at a charge not ex- 
 ceeding ten cents per boat per mile, and three-quarters of a cent 
 per ton per mile for through freight ; and one and a half cents 
 per ton per mile, with twenty cents for handling local freights, 
 and one and a half cents per mile for passengers, ACHIEVES 
 the moment it is put in operation all the ends sought to be at- 
 tained by any scheme of CHEAP TRANSPORTATION hither- 
 to submitted. 
 
 If with these or any cheaper rates the subsidiary railroad 
 will pay five per cent, semi-annually on its stock, and accumu- 
 late a sinking fund in the hands of the Commissioners of the 
 Canal Fund, that in lers than ten years wiil absorb its cepital 
 then the canal, with its subsidiary railway owned and controll- 
 ed entirely by the State, will resume its normal attitude of reg- 
 ulating the rates of transportation between the lakes and the 
 sea. The commerce of the great West, which finds its natural 
 and geographical channel through the State of New York, will 
 then be at our command ; and freight and passengers may be 
 transferred from one point to another, within our own State, at 
 the actual cost of transportation. 
 
 First. — You secure cheap transportation because earnings on 
 a limited capital of twenty-six million are required. 
 
 Second. — You ensure its perpetuity because the surplus earn- 
 ings on this capital will in a short time vest the entire property 
 it represents in the State. 
 
 We challenge any test to these considerations. They solve 
 the problem of cheap transportation, which successive legisla- 
 tive committees have investigated, examined and fruitlessly re- 
 ported upon. With all the complaints against the existing 
 condition of affairs, and all that has been said or written on 
 this subject, where may the definite proposition be found on 
 which the Legislature of New York shall act I 
 
 Capital stands ready to do for the Empire State that which 
 unfortunately, without appropriation and consequent taxation, 
 
78 
 
 she is unable to do for herself. It asks no return, but a fair 
 interest on the investment, as in due time it maybe earned, and 
 no privileges and concessions beyond those enjoyed by all the 
 people under its Constitution and laws. 
 
 With an honest pride in the history and progress of my 
 native State, I press the inquiry : Is it not time to progress 
 from serious investigation to actual experiment ? 
 
 The Buffalo, Syracuse and Albany Railroad Company pro- 
 poses, under the control of the proper State officers, to make all 
 the improvements necessary for establishing towage by locomo- 
 tives between the Lakes and the Hudson River ; to construct 
 all the gradings, crossings, roadways, structures, and to lay all 
 the tracks that may be necessary for that purpose. Its pro- 
 jected line extends not only from Buffalo to Albany, but 
 through to New York on the west side of the Hudson, thus 
 securing the through line to the seaboard that is essential to 
 success. It proposes that every stone, every tie, every rail, 
 every fixture of any kind whatever that may be placed upon 
 the canal banks, shall immediately become the property of the 
 State of New York ; and that every item of authority and con- 
 trol now vested in the State over its canals shall continue as 
 now vested by the Constitution and laws ; and that the free and 
 unrestricted use of the canals, as now provided by law, shall 
 not be interfered with ; and that all the operations of the com- 
 pany shall be subject to the existing rights of the State. 
 
 What is to be built upon State property by this company, 
 injures no one but the company in case of failure,and benefits the 
 State in any event. All the stock and obligations of the com- 
 pany will be subordinate to the property rights of the State, 
 and to the right of the Commissioners of the Canal Fund to pur- 
 chase the stock and bonds at the lowest price obtainable, not 
 exceeding one hundred and Mty dollars for one hundred dollars 
 of stock, and one hundred and thirty dollars for one hundred 
 dollars of bonds. An income of five per cent, semi-annually on 
 a million dollars worth of stock at par, to be transferred to the 
 Commissioners of the Canal Fund on making the contract, is 
 guaranteed. The State begins with an income of one hundred 
 thousand dollars from the gross earnings of the road, payable 
 before its current expenses, when the work between Buffalo and 
 Albany shall have been completed. This must be within three 
 
79 
 
 years. Arrangements have already been made for the comple- 
 tion of a road from Albany to Bergen Heights. 
 
 The earnings between Buffalo and New York, on any calcu- 
 lation that may be made, exhibit the ability for this road, at the 
 rates named in the bill, to pay for itself out of its surplus earn- 
 ings, over and above five percent, semi-annually on its stock,in 
 less than ten years. This needs no demonstration. Less prom- 
 ising railroads could be named whose surplus earnings have 
 paid the original cost of construction in a shorter time. If the 
 surplus earnings, after paying all dividends, equalled one and 
 a half million a year, it is a simple question in arithmetic how 
 soon this sum, in the hands of the Commissioners of the Canal 
 Fund, compounded, in addition to the one million dollars of 
 stock and dividends thereon, would equal twenty -five million. 
 The large amount (namely, $90,000,000 of stock, and $22,000,- 
 000 guaranteed to the Harlem) $112,000,000, upon which the 
 N. Y. Central pays presumably from its earnings eight per 
 cent, per annum, in addition to paying six per cent, upon bonds 
 of $40,000,000, is an illustration of the possibilities on a capital 
 of $26,000,000. 
 
 That such surplus earnings would not be less than $1,500,000 
 per annum, but probably more, is the estimate made by every 
 expert who has examined the subject. Upon the basis of the 
 boats moved last year, as shown by the canal reports, and that 
 the new road will secure one-quarter of the traffic east of 
 Buffalo and Oswego, it has been estimated that the gross earn- 
 ings from Buffalo, Oswego, and intermediate points to New 
 York, will not be less than $7,000,000 per annum. In addition 
 to this, of course its full share of freights from points west of 
 Buffalo will be received the first year, which will largely in- 
 crease these receipts. From $7,000,000 deduct the estimated 
 expenses of $3,000,000, and (six per cent, on $11,000,000 of 
 bonds, and ten per cent, on $15,000,000 of stock as contemplated) 
 say $2,200,000, for dividends and interest, and we have $1,800,- 
 000, as the lowest estimate attained for the annual benefit of the 
 sinking fund to be created under this bill. 
 
 Giving this line the natural growth of business it will surely 
 receive, without drawing for it upon existing lines, its friends 
 claim that during the next ten years the annual surplus of earn- 
 ings available for this sinking fund will equal three million 
 per annum. 
 
80 
 
 Accumulating thus rapidly, the State might wisely prefer not 
 to absorb all this capital immediately. Discretion is therefore 
 given in the bill to the Commissioners of the Canal Fund to use 
 some part of this surplus towards paying the canal debt of the 
 State, or towards reducing the tolls on the canals. If by such 
 reductions the canals shall ultimately become free, it will be 
 much more satisfactory to the people of this State than to ac- 
 complish the same purpose by constitutional amendment. It 
 may well be doubted whether, in the present condition of affairs, 
 or under such circumstances as are likely to exist for years to 
 come, the people of this State will consent to be taxed for the 
 free support of the canals. 
 
 Unless there is some grave error in these considerations, the 
 legislation now urged points to free canals. If it would 
 not ultimately make the canals a free highway, it certainly 
 tends to render them self-sustaining. True statesmanship 
 should be practical ; and practical statesmanship demands 'an 
 effort to render not only the canals, but a gieat thoroughfare 
 to be constructed along their banks, free public highways, from 
 the lakes to the sea. If you may construct one for nothing, 
 see that the opportunity be not rejected. When the construc- 
 tion is in good faith proposed, give it all the sanction within 
 your legislative authority. Instruct your respective State 
 officers to extend all the aid within their respective spheres, and 
 so plan your work that it shall neither burden nor annoy the 
 people, and that it shall maintain itself, and promise it may be 
 an ultimate revenue. 
 
 The best guarantee not only of the feasibility, but of the 
 final success, as well as good faith and ultimate benefits of this 
 measure, is the circumstance that the capital, not the State, 
 incurs the risk. And "what is the motive ? " asked one of the 
 committee the other day. What is the pecuniary interest to 
 be favored by this measure, out of which, of course, money 
 must be made, or money would not be furnished to undertake 
 it \ The answer is : Five per cent, semi-annually on the stock, 
 with a sinking, fund certain to redeem every bond and every 
 share of stock, at a profit, if insisted upon, of fifty per cent, 
 on the stock, and thirty per cent, on the bonds. The sinking 
 fund, so useful to the State, is of reciprocal advantage to the 
 company. The proposition, of course, involves mutual benefits. 
 Are not the benefits to the State more than adequate to the 
 
81 
 
 siender service required from it in the passage of this bill, in 
 the making of the contract called for by it, and in the super- 
 vision by the constitutional authority of the work contem- 
 plated on the public domain ? 
 
 Having in view the purpose of accomplishing transportation 
 through our State, by land or by water, through and local, at 
 as near its actual cost as possible, the committee have wisely 
 devoted such time as has been necessary towards establishing 
 the facts in this respect. It may well be said, however, on the 
 part of the State, that ihis is a matter of secondary importance. 
 There will be no dispute that the establishment of a new high- 
 way, or the improvement of the canal banks, would furnish 
 adequate motive to permit any capital standing ready to experi- 
 ment for the benefit of the State. 
 
 Apart from such considerations, however, the evidence before 
 your committee has demonstrated that canal freights on boats 
 towed by animal power, as approvingly cited by Mr. John B. 
 Jervis, from the report of the State Engineer (1877), John D. 
 Van Buren, cost per ton per mile, from Buffalo to New York, 
 3.83 mills, and, on a similar basis, allowing, instead of seven 
 trips to a boat a season, eleven and three-quarter trips, and 
 towage at the rates mentioned in this bill, the actual cost per 
 ton per mile between Buffalo and New York by the system 
 proposed to be introduced is mills. No item of the calcula- 
 tions of the scientific gentlemen making these estimates has 
 been impugned, notwithstanding the careful cross-examina- 
 tions to which they were subjected by the committee. There 
 was some discussion concerning the length of time occupied or 
 necessary to be consumed in lockage, as affecting the number 
 of trips during a season. In some places five minutes are 
 occupied in locking, and in others, where the good old ways of 
 past generations prevail, fifteen or more minutes are occupied. 
 As a matter of experience, under the present system, boatmen 
 differ. As a matter of possibility, with an interested party 
 speeding each boat in and out, with locks in fair and proper 
 order and properly worked, all the engineers agree that five to 
 six minutes is amply adequate. It is so reported, as the result 
 of several timings during experiments made with steam on the 
 canals, in the report of Mr. I). M. Greene, engineer to the com- 
 mission appointed to investigate the application of steam on 
 canal boats. 
 
82 
 
 Taking the lockage at five minutes, and the average speed of 
 a boat while in the canal at three and three-quarter miles per 
 hour, the estimates clearly show that the boat may make over 
 eleven trips per season, as against the seven trips a season now 
 made. The present cost of six cents a bushel from Buffalo to 
 New York, it is shown, may be reduced to four cents. 
 
 The grand result is obvious, that upon any calculation made 
 the saving in actual cost of freight exceeds thirty per cent. 
 
 There lias been some difference in opinion as to the actual 
 cost of towage per boat per mile. The safest figures deducible 
 from the official estimates, and from the evidence before the 
 committee, is, tliat towage by animal power, as at present, 
 costs from seventeen to twenty-three cents per boat per mile. 
 One man, who w r orked his own boat, and estimated other things, 
 thought he did it, one recent season, for thirteen cents. Some 
 had paid as high as forty-five cents. The fair cost is 'not 
 less than eighteen. This bill compels the company to contract 
 to tow every boat at ten cents per boat per mile, taking it 
 whenever ready and wherever situated. 
 
 Mr. Jervis, than whom no higher authority can be quoted on 
 this subject, has shown, by a paper published in May, 1878, in 
 the International Review, that in the use of steam by locomo- 
 tive engines in towing canal boats, the cost of a round trip be- 
 tween Buffalo and Troy is reduced from the present $423 to 
 $283 1 7 6 > or a reduction of thirty-four per cent., or one-third of 
 the cost by horses. These, he says, are fair and low estimates. 
 The saving is one-third of the cost by steam. There is no 
 speculation in this ; but it is "all based on well-known princi- 
 ples, and may be carried into operation, as the well-established 
 practice of engineering." 
 
 No experiments are required to demonstrate what will be the 
 actual cost. The bill fixes that. In fact, it will be, of course, 
 less than the rates fixed by the bill, otherwise there would be 
 no profit, no sinking fund, no locomotive tow T ing, no bill. But 
 the rates namedjjare far below the existing rates. Nor are ex- 
 periments required to determine whether the scheme of this 
 company is or is not practicable, so far as the passage of this 
 bill is concerned. If it be not practicable, money will not be 
 spent by capitalists in a fruitless effort. If boats cannot 
 profitably be towed by locomotives, as all engineers agree they 
 may be, nobody will be injured by the experiment. If the con- 
 
83 
 
 trary be true, the disappearance of the mule from the tow-path, 
 because too expensive, will only be a question of time. Steam 
 is perfectly adapted to the canals, and the canals are adapted 
 to steam in some form. It does not comport with the average 
 intelligence of the age to load a boat by steam power at 
 Buffalo, and then tow it 350 miles by horse power. 
 
 Every boatman admits one boat may be towed by locomotive; 
 some say two or three boats may be thus towed at some rate of 
 speed ; some say five boats they think cannot be towed at a 
 reasonable rate of speed. The testimony of engineers, how- 
 ever, is uniform. Five boats may be towed in a train, and at a 
 rate from three to five miles per hour in the canal as it at pres- 
 ent exists ; that is, with boats of 240 tons and an average depth 
 of seven feet of water. 
 
 In all these serious matters of fact there is substantial con- 
 cord between the experts who have testified before you, 
 and in published writings on the subject. I refer to the 
 evidence of Mr. Alexander Barclay, Mr. Sylvanus H. Sweet, 
 Mr. D. E. Culver, Mr. H. S. Welles, Mr. John B. Jervis, 
 and to the extracts read from public documents. The 
 recommendation of the present State Engineer to give one foot 
 additional draft to the canals will, if adopted, permit additional 
 speed, and encourage the towing of boats in trains ; while the 
 measures contemplated in improving the operations of locks 
 will add to the economy of locomotive towage. 
 
 It need scarcely be added that the constant watching and 
 work upon the tracks by a company interested in keeping the 
 canal banks in sound condition will materially lessen the ex- 
 penses for ordinary repairs of the canals. 
 
 As far as the canals are concerned, there is no questionthat 
 the proposed system of towage will tend towards their imme- 
 diate and ultimate benefit. But there is no fund to enable the 
 proper officers to introduce it. There is no appropriation, nor 
 can one be passed. 
 
 There is not any doubt of the power of the appropriate offi- 
 cers of this State to try this experiment. If the proper officers 
 charged with the management of the canals, their improvement 
 and the regulations for their navigation, would assume the 
 grave responsibilities of making a contract with an appropriate 
 party for locomotive towage, reserving non-interference with 
 the use and navigation of the canals as now established by law, 
 
84 
 
 that contract might be made to-day. There is nothing to pre- 
 vent it either in the Constitution or statutes of this State. But 
 it is too grave a subject for officers to touch without the sanc- 
 tion of the Legislature. All that this bill does is to authorize 
 and direct the proper officers to make a contract with the Buf- 
 falo, Syracuse and Albany Railroad Company upon the terms 
 stated. 
 
 The State exacts from the company the obligation not only 
 to tow all boats at the rates mentioned, but to carry over the 
 State's property, the State's railroad tracks, on the canal banks 
 — the State's land— at all seasons of the year, whether the 
 canals be open or closed, freight and passengers at the lowest 
 rates mentioned. 
 
 This is the security to the State, without which but little ad- 
 vance would be made towards the great object to be attained. 
 Without the business arising from carrying out this agreement 
 the railroad company woufd scarcely agree to build on the pro- 
 perty of the State, and to permit the State to buy the whole 
 property of the railroad from its own profits. It is this subsid- 
 iary traffic, too, at all seasons, when the State shall own the en- 
 tire road, that will furnish the revenues for maintaining the 
 canals, and for affording transportation at its actual prime cost. 
 It is therefore an essential feature of the bill. 
 
 I ask you to examine this amended bill carefully and see if I 
 have not fairly stated its provisions and probable operation. 
 If there be anything unconstitutional in a measure of this char- 
 acter, it remains for some ingenious counsel to point it out. 
 Neither this measure nor this bill is the growth of an hour, or a 
 day, or a month, or a year. It is a carefully prepared and di- 
 gested plan, adequate to any ordeal of logic, practical mechan- 
 ics, or law, presented in good faith and urged on its public 
 merits. 
 
 Of course you must surround legislation of this character 
 with appropriate guards to protect the interests of the State. 
 How will you do it \ The Constitution itself has fixed these 
 guards. Besides, this bill provides that this entire contract 
 shall be subject to the existing reservations of the State, as 
 expressed in the Constitution. These it is not in the power of 
 the Legislature to infringe upon. It is within the power of the 
 Legislature, however, to control the use, navigation and im- 
 provement of the canals by appropriate instructions to the 
 
85 
 
 Superintendent of Public Works ; and to dictate as well as 
 to approve or to disapprove of the rules and regulations for the 
 use of the canals and their banks. Whatever shallow pretext 
 has been made respecting inadequate power in these respects, 
 nnder the Constitution, is entirely removed by the amendment 
 adopted by the people in 1876, and under which the Superin- 
 tendent of Public Works exercises his office. The bill itself 
 further provides that the new system shall not interfere with 
 the free and unrestricted use of the canals, as now provided by 
 law. 
 
 It has been suggested, in the course of this investigation, 
 that towage by animal power would be impracticable after the 
 introduction of this system. This is like the suggestion that 
 horse vehicles could not safely traverse the streets of New York 
 where steam elevated railroads have been introduced. The 
 railroads were, of course, prohibited from interfering with 
 street travel, and the imaginary problem long since solved 
 itself. If steam locomotive towage be cheaper than towage by 
 animal power, it will soon become its substitute. Suggestions 
 of this nature come from the same personal and inconsiderate 
 inspiration as the views of the boatman who told the committee 
 that if this bill was going to pass he wanted them to give him 
 time to sell his new spans of mules before the locomotive should 
 depress the mnle market. There never was a period in history 
 when the mule question did not solve itself without human en- 
 deavor. So in this case. The mule will not only work out his 
 own salvation, but bring profit to the owner, who shall be re- 
 lieved from feeding him. 
 
 The idea that a large class of people who traffic with the nav- 
 igators and operatives of the canal will be deprived of their 
 business is erroneous. Even if true, would that afford any 
 reason for withholding great public improvements \ But busi- 
 ness makes more business. The moment work begins under 
 this bill, the canal will be alive with multiplied laborers, and 
 with a business activity never before seen along its banks. 
 W T hen the work shall be finished, the farmer along the canal, 
 who now sells his produce there for man or beast, will be able 
 to pay freight to a distant market, and receive a larger return 
 than he now obtains. This result will inevitably flow from the 
 cheap transportation insured by the successful introduction of 
 the proposed system. 
 
86 
 
 Permit me, to allude again to this topic of cheap freights, as 
 bearing upon the action of your committee. The company 
 should agree to transport freight and passengers at such reason- 
 able rates as to command the confidence of the Legislature and 
 the people. The only objection heard against the rates named 
 in the bill is that they are so cheap as not to be remunerative. 
 Has not the evidence before you demonstrated otherwise ? In 
 any event, however, this consideration is not of the slightest 
 consequence to the State. Pass this bill, and acquire the im- 
 provements ; then, if it does not pay, others, not the State, will 
 lose their money. 
 
 We have heard it also carelessly said here that the project 
 is impracticable, and, therefore, should not be attempted. Is 
 that logic ? The w^orld is still, and, therefore, you shall not 
 prove that it moves ? Would it be wise for the Legislature, in 
 respect to experiments involving our commerce, our industry, 
 our appropriations for public works, to be guided by the opin- 
 ion of a few operatives, who think a scheme impracticable 
 w^hich they have never seen tried, and on such testimony con- 
 clude against any experiment ? This spirit never would have 
 started the telegraph between Baltimore and Washington, or 
 built the Croton Aqueduct, the Niagara, Albany or East River 
 bridges, or the Pacific Railroad. 
 
 Great public enterprises are entitled, if not to legislative aid, 
 certainly to legislative sanction. The genius of our institutions 
 is such that, without such endorsement, the public confidence 
 essential to success is not secured. 
 
 It was useless to accumulate evidence respecting the prac- 
 ticability of this project. The money never could be raised to 
 carry out this bill if its plans were not practical. If the money 
 were raised, the scheme would never be completed if it w T ere 
 not practicable ; and, whether practicable or impracticable, is 
 of slight concern as affecting the merits of the measure which 
 this committee are to report upon. 
 
 Are we right in these considerations, gentlemen ? If we are, 
 you must seek some other reason than any suggested before 
 the committee why this bill should not become a law ; and the 
 great problem of cheap transportation solved, and an automatic 
 regulator established by the Empire State over those ramified 
 combinations of corporate power which have grasptd the public 
 throat as well as the public pocket, and laid a heavy hand upon 
 
87 
 
 republican institutions. Your constituencies may justly de- 
 mand that 'a measure which promises such important public 
 achievements shall be favorably received by the Legislature. 
 
 The increased business that will be secured from the great 
 West will not only aid the canals and their subsidiary railway, 
 but benefit all the railroads in the State. Our three great lines 
 will continue to be rivals ; and yet the business of each, of 
 necessity, will help the other. But they will be unable to com" 
 bine. 
 
 When this new line shall get fairly in operation, the State 
 will find itself in possession of a line of canal and railroad, 
 earning, in a short time, a net income for the benefit of the 
 State, estimated at five millions of dollars, which may be de- 
 voted not only to the maintenance of the canals and their im- 
 provement, but towards the expenses of the State government. 
 New York would then own a self-sustaining highway, by land 
 and by water. As was aptly said by Mr. Edward Crane before 
 this committee : "Railways are nothing but improved high- 
 ways ; they are public ways, not private ways ; and, like all 
 public ways, should become free ways." 
 
 It may not be a sagacious policy for the State to tax its peo- 
 ple at present for new railroad enterprises on its own account ; 
 but the wisdom of accepting a railroad to be built on its own 
 lands in aid of its canals, without a dollar's tax or a dollar's 
 expenditure of public funds, is too clear to admit of question. 
 
 The effect of this work would be to inspire confidence in the 
 supremacy of our commercial metropolis, and this without 
 large municipal subscriptions to the capital stock of tributary 
 railroads, such as those made by Philadelphia and Baltimore to 
 the great lines which now favor those cities as against New 
 York city. This measure accomplished, New York city must 
 stand in a position where in competition with those cities she 
 would herself dictate instead of being dictated to respecting 
 domestic and foreign shipments. It was said in the testimony 
 here that cities compete and railroads combine. How better 
 may New York city compete with these seaports to the south 
 of us lor our fair share of the commerce of the country ? 
 
 It is idle to speculate upon the possible benefits accruing 
 from such partial and temporary contrivances as the towing of 
 canal boats by a tug, or their propulsion by a steam, engine on 
 
88 
 
 each boat, or the deepening of the canal in aid of snch a sys- 
 tem. Any such application of power carries with it a loss of 
 twenty per cent, tonnage, and extra lockage for tugs. 
 
 Propositions of this character do not meet the issue, even if 
 they were capable of affording temporary relief. So also do 
 all other schemes for towage by cable or otherwise fall short of 
 the necessities of the occasion. 
 
 When this great work, as laid out in this bill, shall have been 
 completed, and transportation by land and water guaranteed 
 at or below the rates named, it will be unnecessary to speculate 
 what commerce will come to or through New York. It will be 
 unnecessary to inquire whether the enlargement of the Welland 
 canal, as now contemplated, will divert commerce from New 
 York, or from its Lake ports. 
 
 Commerce will go where its interest leads it, and if grain can 
 be transported more cheaply from the lakes to Albany than to 
 Montreal, or to Philadelphia, or to Baltimore, New York will 
 do the business. The logic is irresistible. 
 
 Now, gentlemen, if the bill before you affords reasonable 
 hope that the great purposes I have alluded to may be accom- 
 plished — and all those who have given the subject any careful 
 consideration unite in the opinion that no measure has ever yet 
 been devised better calculated to achieve them — can you sug- 
 gest any fair grounds why this bill should not become a law, 
 and this great experiment made, or the result attained ? 
 
 In a financial, mechanical, scientific, or legal point of view, 
 the measure is unassailable. It addresses itself to the political 
 economist, to the scientific engineer, to the practical operative, 
 to the lawyer, and to the home interests of a large part of our 
 population. It addresses itself to the statesmen and politicians 
 of our State. It addresses itself particularly to the interests 
 of New York city, as well as to the interests of Buffalo and 
 Oswego. 
 
 There is no view in which the measure now before the com- 
 mittee can be candidly examined, and its merits or its alleged 
 disadvantages weighed, that will not, I believe, result in a fa- 
 vorable conclusion. If imperfect in any details, we stand ready 
 to aid you in perfecting them. But its grand purposes are sol- 
 emnly confided to your legislative judgment ; to that free, 
 frank, unfettered judgment which is the pride of the American 
 Representative, whom power is impotent to threaten or to 
 
89 
 
 cajole, and to whom the humblest citizen may trustfully ap- 
 peal. 
 
 I thank the committee for the kind attention accorded me, 
 and in the name of the Buffalo, Syracuse & Albany Railroad 
 for the painstaking investigation you have conducted. 
 
iEx ICthrta 
 
 SEYMOUR DURST 
 
 When you leave, please leave this book 
 
 Because it has been said 
 "Sver'thing comes t' him who waits 
 
 Except a loaned book." 
 
 Avery Architectural and Fine Arts Library 
 Gift of Seymour B. Durst Old York Library 
 
I