mmsi 
 
 BALTIMORE, : 
 
 MARYLAND 
 
 '.juuul.uti 
 
 DEBATE, 
 
 BEFORE THE COMMON COUNCIL 
 
 ON 
 
 THE CATHOLIC PETITION, 
 
 RESPECTING THE COMMON SCHOOL FUND; 
 
 AND 
 
 THE PUBLIC SCHOOL SYSTEM OF EDUCATION, 
 
 » IN 
 
 THE CITY OF NEW-YORK. 
 
 CONTENTS. 
 
 I. IN SUPPORT OF THE CATHOLIC PETITION. 
 Speech of the Right Rev. Dr. Hughes,.Catholic Bishop. 
 
 II. AGAINST GRANTING THE PRAYER OF THE PETITION. 
 " Theodore Sedgwick, and Hiram Ketchum, Esq's., 
 
 Counsel for the Public School Society. 
 " Rev. Dr. Bond, Rev. Dr. Baitgs, and Dr. Reese, 
 
 Of the Methodist Episcopal Church. 
 Rev. Dr. Knox, of the Dutch Reformed Church., 
 Rev. Dr. Spring, of the Presbtterian Church. 
 
 III. IN REPLY. 
 
 " Right Rev. Dr. Hughes. 
 
Ex iCtbrifi 
 
 SEYMOUR DURST 
 
 When you leave, please leave this book 
 
 Because it has been said 
 "Ever'thing comes t' him who watts 
 
 Except a loaned book." 
 
 Avery Architectural and Fine Arts Library 
 Gift of Seymour B. Di rst Old York Library 
 
INTRODUCTION. 
 
 On presenting to the public a report of the late important 
 discussion before the Common Council of the city of New 
 York, on the subject of popular education, and the Petition 
 of the Catholics for an alteration in the present mode of ad- 
 ministering the school fund in this city, it will nut be con- 
 sidered inappropriate to accompany it, by way of preface, 
 with a brief narrative of the agitation of the question here 
 during the present year. The following statement is ac- 
 cordingly given of the proceedings on the subject. 
 
 There will be found in the debate information respecting 
 the Common School Systc its origin and its operation 
 throughout this State, sufficient for all general purposes. — 
 A more detailed reference to that portion of the subject will 
 therefore be unnecessary here. With Catholics and with 
 the Catholic Church, the education of youth has ever been 
 an object of peculiar solicitude, as the vast means will tes- 
 tify, which this Church (let her enemies say what they will) 
 has always provided for popular instruction, through the 
 agency of her religious orders and otherwise. But in all 
 cases it has been one of their most anxious cares that the 
 instruction imparted should not only not impair religious 
 faith, which is the basis of all moral good, but should 
 strengthen and confirm it in the minds of those upon whom 
 the benefits of education were conferred. In the early and 
 middle ages, this task of education was discharged through- 
 out Christendom almost exclusively by ecclesiastics or reli- 
 gious persons who maintained numerous schools in which 
 instruction was free to all who sought it. Men were then 
 not divided as they are now in their religious belief. But 
 with the conflict of creeds, came an altered state of things 
 wherever it prevailed. The religious spirit, which, in Ca- 
 tholic times, led men and associations of men, voluntarily 
 and without hope of earthly reward, to devote their lives and 
 their faculties to a compliance with the counsel of mercy, 
 that declared it to be a divine virtue "to instruct the igno- 
 rant," had in a great measure disappeared, and nothing 
 equivalent had arisen in its place. After a time, however, 
 various governments attempted the establishment of general 
 national systems of education, and in those countries 
 where an equality of rights was secured in any considerable 
 degree, to the several religious denominations, much diffi- 
 culty was and is yet experienced in contriving a sy tern 
 that would be acceptable to all alike. It is not necessary 
 here to refer to the various plans that nave been agitated or 
 adopted in other places. The history of the subject in this 
 State is the only one which it will be necessary to glance at. 
 Here the system (by what means it matters not at present 
 to inquire) gradually assumed a form under the manage- 
 ment of the Public School Society of the city of New York, 
 which it is believed education has not assumed in any other 
 country — a form of which religion not only constitutes no 
 part, but in which it is avowedly excluded. To such a sys- 
 tem Catholics could never give their confidence — and what 
 rendered it still more objectionable with them, was the fact 
 that it had a strong anti-Catholic tendency, especially in the 
 character of the books that were used for school exercises^ 
 The Catholics generally declined to participate in what they 
 considered to be, at the best, the very dubious benefits of 
 this system. They complained of the unjust administration 
 of the public fund by which this system was supported — a 
 
 fund to which they, in common with others, nad >. 
 ed ; and in order to supply the wants of their own ^ 
 far as they had the means to do so, they established . 
 schools subject to their own control. 
 
 More particular attention having been recently called to 
 the subject, some action on the part of the Catholics was 
 deemed necessary, and a Catholic Association was formed in 
 this city in the early part of the present year, for the purpose 
 of obtaining a remedy, if practicable, for the grievance un- 
 der which the Catholics labored in this matter. "Weekly 
 meetings were held for several months in the school house 
 attached to the Cathedral Church — political views and feel- 
 ings were most sedulously excluded from all their proceed- 
 ings — men of all political parties participated in the move- 
 ment — memorials were presented to the Common Council 
 of the city of New Yor k for relief, their prayer was de- 
 nied, and the subject had thus acquired a considerable 
 public interest previous to the meeting of the Association 
 and of the general body of the Catholics, which was held on 
 the evening of the 20th of July last, in the school house 
 above mentioned, immediately after the retur n of the Right 
 Rev. Dr. Hughes from Europe. 
 
 At this meeting the very Rev. Dr. Power presided, and 
 it was ably and eloquently addressed by him and by the Rt. 
 Rev. Dr. Hughes, and also by other gentlemen. The 
 meetings from that time forward were regularly held once 
 in two weeks in the basement room of St. James' Church, 
 and assumed a most important character. Bishop Hughes 
 delivered on every evening an eloquent and instructive ad- 
 dress on the subject. The very Rev. Dr. Power also fre- 
 quently addressed the meetings in his powerful and impres- 
 sive manner, and occasional speeches were likewi.-e made 
 by several Catholic gentlemen who took a warm interest in 
 the proceedings. 
 
 On the ICth of August, an "Address of the Roman Ca- 
 tholics to their fellow-citizens of the City and State of New 
 York" was adopted by the meeting of Catholics held on that 
 day, and it was published in pamphlet form, and also in an 
 extra issued from the office of the New York Freeman's 
 Journal, and some other papers of the city. The Address 
 excited much attention, and a document, purporting to be a 
 " Reply" to its arguments, was issued by the Public School 
 Society. 
 
 On the 21st of September, a petition to the Common 
 Council of the city of New York, for relief, was adopted at 
 the Catholic meeting held on that day in the basement of 
 St. James' Church, and was forthwith presented by a com- 
 mittee, deputed for the purpose, to the Board of Aldermen 
 who were then in session. A copy of the petition is an- 
 nexed to this introduction. 
 
 After some discussion and postponements, the 29th of 
 October was finally appointed by the Board of Aldermen to 
 hear the Catholics and those opposed to them, by counsel or 
 etherwisc, on the subject of their petition — the Public School 
 Society and the Methodist Episcopal Church having sent in 
 to the Common Council remonstrances against granting 
 the prayer of the Catholic petition. On that day and the 
 succeeding one the debate took place, of which the present 
 publication furnishes a faithful report. \ 
 
, several Catholic meetings on this 
 
 jf the 20th of July incltnuve, w*re 
 ally and accurately repotted in the New 
 Journal, and the following interesting e&> 
 speech of Bishop Hughes at the last meeting, 
 ueld on the subject, on the 19th of October last, 
 . from that Journal of the 24th of the same month, 
 given here as being particularly appropriate and in- 
 .ucti\ ( . 
 
 Speaking of the introduction into the Public Schools of 
 the works of Protestant writers exclusively, the Bishop 
 asked, 
 
 "What reason they (the Trustees of the Public Schools) had to give 
 for the introduction of these writers — Robertson, Hume and others — 
 ■what reason they could have, when they knew there were 6iich a 
 multitude of Catholic writers, to suppress even the least occasional 
 mention of Catholic writers ? Was it because Catholics have no men 
 who have labored in the fields of science to improve the human mind ? 
 Now, though it may be a secret to those gentlemen, there is no de- 
 partment ot History or Philosophy in which the mind of a Catholic 
 has not taken the lead ; and the time was, when the Catholic arm 
 was found the strongest in pushing the Sun ot Science up the 
 Heavens. Who has produced works of Theology like ours. In 
 Philosophy, whether of mind or mailer, where arc the books which 
 for depth of research, or extent of knowledge, equal or approach the 
 mighty tomes produced by Catholics ? And at the period when an- 
 cient civilization was destroyed, when the edifice crumbled under the 
 mighty stroke of the Goth and the Hun, and when society was dis- 
 solved, we found Catholic minds presiding over its reconstruction, 
 laying its foundations broad and deep, and doing every thing calcu- 
 lated to improve the public mind. Who reduced a mass of rude cha- 
 racters into letters which we now call our alphabet ? Who but Ca- 
 tholics who thus gave a language to Europe by establishing its basis. 
 Nay more, after that, who introduced that most important branch of 
 civilization — agriculture ? It was the Monks, by whose industry 
 and labor the reclaimed wastes became the " model farms" of Europe, 
 and from them agriculture spread. 
 
 We hear much of free government and of Parliaments, but was that 
 a Protestant invention ? No, it was a Catholic invention ; for it was 
 copied from the Catholic Church. The first models of representative 
 government, and of dignified and noble parliaments, were the coun- 
 cils of the Catholic Church, in which every part of that church had 
 its representative. Thence, then the idea was borrowed, which has 
 been the pride and boast of Engiand and of this country after her, of 
 representative government. But I might speak also of navigation. 
 Who discovered the continent on which we now live. Was it not a 
 Catholic? Who made the second voyage to this continent, and 
 stamped his name upon it? Was it not a Catholic? Americus 
 Vespucius. Who made the first voyage round the globe? Was it 
 not a Catholic? And Catholics were the first to visit both the East and 
 the West Indies; they traversed seas to carry the knowledge of Jesus 
 Christ to the ignorant, and they then became acquainted with the 
 physical position of different countries, and they conveyed that know- 
 ledge to the world either in letters or other documents, and added a 
 m iss of human knowledge, which had assumed a gigantic size before 
 Protestantism first sprang out of the earth. And while things of a 
 less beneficial tendency were going on in other parts of the globe, 
 Catholic Missionaries, 200 years ago, penetrated this country and 
 continued a chain round from Quebec to the Mississippi. While 
 persecution was going on in the North and the South, with which 
 Catholics had nothing to do, their free banner waved over Maryland, 
 where the rights of conscience were recognized. They went to the 
 Indians, not to destroy bui to convert, to save, and to civilize. And 
 if we turn onr eyes from these things to others, we shall sec those 
 things which are calculated to reflect honor ou those who effected 
 their accomplishment. When we see the alleviation of the infirmi- 
 ties of human life, we naturally ask ourselves to whom the world was 
 indebted for the act of mercy. Who planned the structures and laid 
 the foundations of these hospitals for the afflicted, and asylums for the 
 decropid, the aged, and the young and exposed infant ? Were they 
 not all introduced and established by the benevolent spirits and the 
 enlightened minds of the Cathoiics ol antiquity ? Turn your minds 
 to other structures, and then ask who laid the foundations of the uni- 
 versities? Who originated the idea ? Who aided their establish- 
 ment ? It was Catholics alone, and if you blot out the benevolent in- 
 stitutions with which the earth is still studded, for which the world 
 is indebted to Catholics, you will find but few insignificant ones 
 remaining. If you turn again from these things to the men u.stin- 
 guished by their own intellect — to warriors, and legislators — to men 
 distinguished by their eloquence, by their scientific attainments, in 
 
 jurisprudence, or in other stations in public life, where do you find 
 models worthier of imitation thin those by whom the pages of Catho- 
 lic history are adorned. Passing again fiom these to the ornament 
 of ancient literature, of classic Greece and Rome, and while desola- 
 tion and barbarism passed over Europe with their trains of evillj 
 who, by patient, persevering industry, gathered up the fragments of 
 ancient litertture to adorn the human mind ? It was done by the la- 
 bor, of the calumniated monks. Yes, you may turn your eyes on 
 whatever side you please, and you will find that Catholics have no- 
 thing of which to he ashamed. You will find ii i re ^on fur the sup- 
 pression of all these things with which Catholics can charge tin tn- 
 aelves, but you will find in every department if you take away the 
 volumes Catholics have written, and the mighty hbrarii s they have 
 collected, your shelves will present a barren appearance. Why, we 
 have the testimony of eminent Protestant scholars themselves, attest- 
 ing the fact that one single order alone— the order of Benedictines — 
 did more than all the Protestants together. In every species of know- 
 ledge — in history, jurisprudence, and canonical and civil law— in a 
 word, in every thing appertaining to human knowledge, it was found 
 that the great predoini iianee wan due to Catholic labor and Catholic 
 success; and why then do we not find one page to adorn these school 
 books irom authors like these. Again, where are there poets like 
 Catholic poets ? Take from England the works of Catholic writers 
 — take away her Chaucer, and Spenser, and Shakspearc, and Dry- 
 den, and Pope, and you take away the cream of. English literature. 
 Then if you turn your minds from these things to others not so im- 
 mediately essential to the cultivation, but to the adornment of human 
 life — take the study of the mathematics — and who was the first to 
 cultivate that study in the West of Europe? Who invented, and ar- 
 ranged, and introduced thai science but the Monk Jerbert, afterwards 
 Pope Sylvoster II — the same who introduced the first celestial globes. 
 Then again in architecture and its application to the construction of 
 bridges, which at one period of European history could not be con- 
 structed without calling in the aid of some leanied man from a dis- 
 tant country, who was usually some humble Monk who knew how to 
 throw the daring arch, to span the river, or to cross the otherwise im- 
 passable valley. Take away from England even the architectural 
 structures left by Catholics, and what will remain? Scarcely any- 
 thing. Oxford would disappear, and the greater part of Cambridge, 
 and nothing would be left hut St. Paul's, of which Lord Kingsbury 
 s.i id, after seeing St. Peter's, it was scarcely fit for anything but to be 
 blown up by gunpowder. If we turn from these things to inventions, 
 we may ask, who invented the art of printing ? A Catholic Who 
 originated that by which information was sent round through every 
 village and hamlet — the post-office ? A Catholic. Who invented 
 the clock to tell what time of day it is ? A Catholic. Who invent- 
 ed the compass to guide the mariner across the trackless ocean ? A 
 Catholic. What is it that Catholics~have not done ? And if this is 
 the history of this people, why is it that these teachers despise them, 
 and why is it that not a line from Catholic authors is permitted in 
 their books ? And they prctenJed to be all impartiality and to pos- 
 sess feelings of the most liberal and philanthropic character. But 
 turn away from this again to another thing, rherc are afflictions 
 resting on tho children of sorrow, some of whom are deprived of 
 sight, and the sunbeam falls to the earth in vain for them. Now it 
 was a work of benevolence to discover eyes for these children of sor- 
 row, and to place them at the end of their fingers — or in other words 
 to enable them, by running their fingers over raised characters, to 
 read with rapidity ; and it is to a Catholic that the invention is to be 
 attributed. Again there is another class, the deaf and dumb, who 
 can neither hear nor speak. Now happily for thorn, there is an in- 
 vention, which emanated from a benevolent heart, by which they can 
 communicate thought, and for this they are indebted to a Catholic 
 priest. The language for the deaf and dumb, was the invention of 
 the Abby Ponza, a Benedictine of Spain. 
 
 Now if these gentlemen of the Public Schools will place Catholics 
 under a dark cloud, I see no reason why we should not penetrate that 
 cioud, and cause some part of the rays of our former glory to return to 
 us. It was then again the Abby L'Epee, who on visiting two sisters 
 thus afflicted, as a man of God, was himself afflicted that he could 
 not communicate to them the Christian religion. He began to move 
 by signs, and continued to improve pn his attempt, until at length he 
 acquired the means of communicating with the deaf and dumb with 
 ease and rapidity. 
 
 Who was the founder of Sunday Schools? It was Saint Charles 
 Borromeo — a Catholic. In a word there is no department of know- 
 ledge in which Catholics have not been distinguished. But to go 
 further, who discovered a quicker means of communication than the 
 railroad ? It is not used so extensively in this country as in some 
 others, but it may be important even here, if an invasion should be 
 made of any part of our coast, to communicate information to *>\ ash- 
 ington and receive an answer back in less time than it could be done 
 by railroads ; he would deserve a prize who should invent the means 
 
6 
 
 of sending information from Niagara to Washington ittd reiving 
 an answer back in six or seven hours. And yet the equivalent 
 of this has been done by a Catholic priest who invented the tele- 
 graph. If wc turn to music, who has brought it to its present state 
 by the perfection of instrumental music ? Who has taught the can- 
 vas to speak ? And who has given life and animation to the cold 
 marble ! Catholics. And all the boasted superiority of Protestants 
 is yet an infinite distance from the productions of Catholics, and 
 they are proud to distraction if they succeed in producing a tolera- 
 ble copy of that which Catholics have invented. I have thus en- 
 deavored to claim for Catholics that to which they are confessedly en- 
 titled. The gentlemen ot the public schools have not treated us fair- 
 ly or honorably, when they have thought proper to fill their pages for 
 the instruction of our children, from Hume and Robertson, and other 
 Protestant writers who were all opposed to the Catholics, and have 
 not given one sentence from Catholic authors." 
 
 PETITION. 
 
 TO THE HONORABLE THE BOARD OF AL- 
 DERMEN OF THE CITY OF NEW YORK. 
 
 The Petition of the Catholics of New York Respectfully 
 Represents : 
 
 That your Petitioners yield to no class in their performance of, and 
 disposition to perform, all the duties of citizens. They bear, and are 
 willing to bear their portion of every common burthen; and feel 
 themselves entitled to a participation in every common benefit. 
 
 This participation, they regret to say, has been denied them for 
 years back, in reference to Common School Education in the city of 
 New York, except on conditions with which their conscience, and, 
 as they believe, their duty to God, did not, and does not leave them 
 ot liberty to comply* 
 
 The rights of conscience in this country, are held by both the con- 
 stitution and universal consent, to be sacred and inviolable. No 
 stronger evidence of this need be adduced than the fact, that one class 
 of citizens are exempted from the duty or obligation of defending 
 their country against any invading foe, out of delicacy and deference 
 to the rights of conscience which forbids them to take up arms for 
 any purpose. 
 
 Your Petitioners only claim the benefit of this principle, in regard 
 to the public education of their children. They regard the public 
 education which the State has provided as a common benefit, in 
 which they are most desirous, and feel that that they are entitled to 
 participate ; and therefore they pray your Honorable Body that they 
 may be permitted to do so, without violating their conscience. 
 
 Bnt your Petitioners do not ask that this prayer be granted, with- 
 out assigning their reasons for preferring it. 
 
 In ordinary cases men are not required to assign the motives of 
 conscientious scruples in matters of this kind. But ycur Petitioners 
 are aware that a large, wealthy, and concentrated influence is directed 
 against their claim by the corporation called the Public School Socie- 
 ty. And that this influence, acting on a public opinion already but 
 too much predisposed to judge unfavorably of the claims of your Peti- 
 tioners, requires to be met by facts which justify them in thus ap- 
 pealing to your Honorable Body, and which may at the same time, 
 convey a more correct impression to the public mind. Your Peti- 
 tioners adopt this course the more willingly, because the justice, and 
 impartiality which distinguish the decisions of public men in this 
 country, inspire them with the confidence that your Honorable Body 
 will maintain, in their regard, the principle of the rights of con- 
 science if it can be done without violating the rights of others, and 
 on no other condition is the claim solicited. 
 
 It is not deemed necessary to trouble your Honorable Body with a 
 detail o'the circumstances by which the monopoly of the public edu- 
 cation of children in the city of New York, and of the funds provided 
 for that purpose, at the expense of the State, have passed into the 
 hands of a private corporation, styled in its act of charter, "The 
 Public School Society of the City of New York." It is composed of 
 men of different sects or denominations. But that denomination 
 Friends, which is believed to have the controlling influence, both by 
 its numbers and otherwise, holds as a peculiar sectarian principle, 
 that any formal or official teaching of religion is, at best unprofi'able. 
 And your Petitioners have discovered that such of their children as 
 have attended the Public Schools, are generally and at an early age, 
 imbued with the same principle — that they become untractable, diso- 
 bedient, and even contemptuous towards their parcuts — unwilling to 
 learn any thing of religion — as if they had become illuminated, and 
 could receive all the knowledge of religion nccessiry for them, by in- 
 stinct or inspiration. Your Petitioners do not pretend to assign the 
 cause of this change in their children, they only attest the fact as re- 
 sulting from their attendance at the Public Schools of the Public 
 
 This Society, however, is compoaedof 
 
 including even one or two Catholics. BtW. th 
 Sectarianism from their schools. If they au 
 ism, they are avowedly no more entitled to the bet. 
 your Petitioners, or any other denomination of professing 
 If they do as they profess, exclude sectarianism, then your t*. 
 ers contend that they exclude Christianity, and leave to the advanta b 
 of infidelity, the tendencies which are given to the minds of yoth 
 by the influence of this feature and pretension of their system. If 
 they could accomplish what they profess, other denominations would 
 join your petitioners in remonstrating against their schools. But 
 they do not accomplish it. Your Petitioners will show your Honora- 
 ble Body that they do admit what Catholics call sectarianism, (al- 
 though others may call it only religion) in a great variety of ways. 
 
 In their 22d Report, as far back as the year 1327, they tell us, page 
 14, that they " are aware of the importance of early religious instruc- 
 tion," and that none but what is " exclusively general and scriptural 
 in its character, should be introduced into the schools, under their 
 charge." Here, then, is their own testimony that they did introduce 
 and authorise " religious instruction" in their schools. And that 
 they solved, with the utmost composure, the difficult question on 
 which the sects disagree by determining what kind of" religious in- 
 struction" is " exclusively general and scriptural in its character." 
 
 Neither could they impart this " early religious instruction" them- 
 selves. They must have left it to their teachers, and these armed 
 with official influence, could impress those " early religious instruc- 
 tions" on the susceptible minds of the children, with the authority of 
 dictators. 
 
 The Public School Society, in their report for the year 1832, page 
 10, describe the effects of these " early religious instructions," with- 
 out perhaps intending to do so, but yet precisely as your Petitioners 
 have witnessed it, in such of their children as attended those schools. 
 " The age at which children are usually sent to school, affords a 
 much better opportunity to mould their minds to peculiar and exclu- 
 sive forms of faith, than any subsequent period of life." In page 11 
 of the same report, they protest against the injustice of supporting 
 " religion in any shape" by public money, as if the early religious in- 
 struction which they themselves authorized in their schools, five 
 years before, was not "religion in some shape," and was not sup- 
 ported by public taxation. They tell us agaio in more guarded lan- 
 guage, " The trustees are deeply impressed with the importance of 
 imbuing the youthful mind with religious impressions, and they 
 have endeavored to attain this object, as far as the nature of the insti- 
 tution will admit." Report of 1837, page 7. 
 
 In their 33d Annual Report, they tell^us that " they would not be 
 understood as regarding religious impressions, iu early youth as un- 
 important. On the contrary'they desire to do all which may with 
 propriety be done to give a right direction to the minds of the chil - 
 dren entrusted to their care. Their schools are uniformly opened 
 with fne reading of the scriptures, and the class books are such as re- 
 cognise and enforce the great, and generally acknowledged principles 
 of Christianity." Pa§e 7. 
 
 In their 34th annual report for the year 1839, they pay a high com- 
 pliment to a deceased teacher, for the " moral and religious influence 
 exerted by her, over the three hundred girls, daily attending her 
 school," and tell us that " it could not but have a lasting effect on 
 many of their susceptible minds." Page 7. And yet in all these 
 " early religious institutions — religious impressions, and religious 
 influence," essentially anti-Catholic, your Petitioners are to see 
 nothing sectarian — but if in giving the education which the State 
 requires, they were to bring the same influences to bear on the " sus- 
 ceptible minds of their oion children, in favor, and not against their 
 own religion, then this society contends that it would be sectarian ! " 
 
 Your Petitioners regret there is no means of ascertaining to what 
 extent the teachers in the schools of the Society carried out the views 
 of their principals, on the importance of conveying "early relegious 
 instructions" to the susceptible minds of the children. But they be- 
 lieve it is in their power to prove that in some instances, the scrip- 
 tures have been explained, as well as read to the pupils. 
 
 Even the reading of the scriptures in those schools, your Petitioners 
 cannot regard otherwise than as sectarian ; because Protestants 
 would certainly consider as such the intention of the Catholic scrip- 
 tures, which are different from theirs — and the Catholics have the 
 same ground to objection, when the Protestant version is made use 
 of, Your Petitioners have to state further, as grounds of their con- 
 scientious objections to those schools, that many of the selections in 
 their elementary reading lessons contain matter prejudicial to the 
 Catholic name and character. The term " Popery" is repeatedly 
 found in them. This term is known and employed as one of insult 
 and contempt towards the Catholic religion, and it posses into tho 
 mind of children with the feeling of which it is the outward expres- 
 sion. Both the historical and religious portions of the reading les- 
 sons are selected from Protestant writers, whose prejudices against 
 the Catholic religion render them unworthy of confidence in the mini 
 
trto far ai their own children are con- 
 
 oociely have heretofore denied that their books 
 .iiie reasonably objectionable to Catholics. Proofs 
 .ary could be multiplied, but it is unnecessary, as they 
 ocently retracted their dcniul, and discovered, after fifteen years 
 .ijoymentof their monopoly, that their books do contain objection*- 
 ble passages. But they allege that they have proffered repeatedly to 
 make such corrections as the Catholic clergy might require. Your 
 Petitioners conceive that such a proposal could not be carried into 
 effect by the Public School Society, without given just grounds for 
 exceptions to other denominations. Neither can they sec with what 
 consistency that society can insist as it has done, on the perpetuation 
 of its monopoly, when the Trustees thus avow their incompetency to 
 present unexceptionable books, without the aid of the Catholic or any 
 Other clergy. They allcs-e, indeed, that with the best intentions, they 
 have been unable to ascertain the passages which might he offensive 
 to Catholics. With their intentions, your Petitioners cannot enter 
 into any question. Nevcrtherthcless, they submit to your Honorable 
 Body that this Society is eminently incompetent for the superinten- 
 dence of public education, if they could not see that the following 
 passages was unfit for the Public Schools, and especially unfit to be 
 placed in the hands of Catholic children. 
 
 They will quote the passage as one instance, taken from Putnam's 
 Sequel, page 296. 
 
 ** Huss John, a zealous reformer from Popery, who lived in Bohe- 
 mia towards the close of the fourteenth, and the beginning of the 
 fifteenth centuries. He was bold and persevering ; but at length 
 trusting to the deceitful Catholics, he was by them brought to trial, 
 condemned as heretic, and burnt at the stake." 
 
 The Public School Society may be excused for not knowing the 
 historical inaccuracies of this passage ; but surely assistance of the 
 Catholic clergy could not have been necessary to an understanding 
 of the word "deceitful," as applied to all who profess the religion of 
 your Petitioners. 
 
 For these reasons, and others of the same kind, your Petitioners 
 cannot in conscience, and conscientiously with their sense of duly 
 to God, and to their offspring, entrust the Public School Society with 
 the office of giving "a right direction to the minds of their children." 
 And yet this Society claims that office, and claims for the discharge 
 of it,the Common School funds to which your Petitioncrs.in common 
 with other citizens are contributors. In so far as they are con- 
 tributors, they are not only deprived of any benefit in return, 
 but their money is employed to the damage and detriment 
 of their religion, on the minds of their own children, and of the 
 rising generation of the community at large. The contest is 
 between the guaranteed rights, civil and religious of the citizen 
 on the one hand, and the pretensions of the Public School Society 
 on the other ; and whilst it has been silently going on for years, 
 your Petitioners would call the attention of your Honorable Body, to 
 its consequences on the class tor whom the benefits of public educa- 
 tion are most essential — the children of the poor. 
 
 This class, (your Petitioners speak only so far as relates to their 
 own denomination) after a brief experience of the schools of the 
 Public School Society, naturally and deservedly withdraw all confi- 
 dence from it. Hence the establishment by your Petitioneis of 
 schools for the education of the poor. 
 
 The expense necessary for this, was a second fixation, required 
 not by the laws of the land, but the no less imperious demands of 
 their conscience. 
 
 They were reduced to the alternative of seeing their children grow- 
 ing up in entire ignorance, or else taxing themselves anew for pri- 
 vate schools, whilst the funds provided for education, and contributed 
 in part by themselves, were given over to the Public School Society, 
 and by them employed as has~been stated above. 
 
 Now your Petitioners respectfully submit, that without this confi- 
 dence, no body of men can discharge the duties of education as in- e 
 .ended by the State and required by the people. The Public Schook 
 Society are.and have been at all times, conscious that thev had not t 
 confidence of the poor. In their 2Sth Report, they appeal "to the ladi 
 of New York to create or procure it by the "persuasive eloquence ° t 
 female kindness," page 5 ; and from this they pass on to the ne x 
 page, to the more efficient eloquence of coercion under penalties and 
 privations, to be visited on all persons, "whether emigrant er other- 
 wise," who being in the circumstances of poverty referred to, should 
 not send their children to some "public or other daily school." 
 
 In their 27th Report, pages 15 and 16, they plead for the doctrine, 
 and recommend it to public favor, by the circumstance that it w 11 
 effect but "few natives."— But why should it be necessary at all, if 
 they possessed that coufidence of the poor, without which thev need 
 never hope to succeed. So well are they convinced of this, that no 
 longer ago than last year, they gave up all hope of inspiring it, and 
 loudly call for coercion by "the strong arm of the civil poioer" to sup- 
 
 ply its deficiency. Your Petitioners will close this part of their 
 
 statement with the expression of their surprise, and regret that gen- 
 tlemen who are themselves indebted much to the respect which is 
 properly cherished for the rights of conscience, should be so unmind- 
 ful of the same rights in the case of your Petitioners. Many of 
 them are by religious principle, so pacific they would not take up 
 arms in the defence of the liberties of their country, though she 
 should call them to her aid : and yet they do not hesitate to invoke 
 the "strong arm of the civil power" for the purpose of abridging the 
 private liberties of their fellow citizens, who may feel equally con- 
 scientious. 
 
 Your Petitioners have to deplore, as a consequence of this state of 
 tilings, the ignorance and vice to which hundreds, nay thousands of 
 their children arc exposed. They have to regret, also, that the edu- 
 cation which they can provide, under the disadvantages to which 
 they have been subjected, is not as efficient as it should be. But 
 should your Honorable Body be pleased to designate their schsols as 
 entitled to realise a just proportion of the Public Funds which belong 
 to your Petitioners in common with other citizens,their schools could 
 be improved for those who attend ; others now growing up in igno- 
 rance could he received, and the ends of the Legislature could be ac- 
 complished ; a result which is manifestly hopeless under the present 
 system. 
 
 Your Petitioners will now invite the attention of Your Honorable 
 Body to the objections and misrepresentations that have been urged 
 by the Public School Society, to granting the claim of your Petition- 
 ers. It is urged by them that it would be appropriating money rais- 
 ed by general taxation to the support of the Catholic Religion. Your 
 Petitioners join issue with them, and declare unhesitatingly, that if 
 this objection can be established, the claim shall be forthwith aban- 
 doned. It is objected thai though we arc taxed as citizens, we apply 
 for the benefits of education as "Catholics." Your Petitioners, to re- 
 move this difficulty, beg to be considered in their application in the 
 identical capacity in which they arc taxed, viz., as citizens of the 
 commonwealth. It has been contended by the Public School Society 
 that the law disqualified schools which admit any profession of reli- 
 gion, from receiving any encouragements from the School Fund. — 
 Your Petitioners have two solutions for this pretended difficulty. 1. 
 Your Petitioners are unable to discover any such disqualification in 
 the law, which merely delegates to your Honorable Body the autho- 
 rity and discretion of determining what schools or societies shall be 
 entitled to its bounty. 2. Your Petitioners are willing to fulfill the 
 conditions of the law as far as religious teaching is prescribed, 
 during school hours. In fine, your Petitioners, to remove nil objec- 
 tion, are willing that the material organization of their schools, and 
 the disbursements of the funds allowed for them, should be conduct- 
 ed and made by persons unconnected with the religion of your Peti- 
 tioners, even the Public School Society,if it should please your Hon- 
 orable Body to appoint them for that purpose. The public may then 
 be assured that the money will not be applied to the support of the 
 Catholic religion. 
 
 It is deemed necessary by your Petitioners to save the Public 
 School Society the necessity of future misconception, thus to state 
 the things which are not petitioned for. The members of that Soci- 
 ety who have shown themselves so impressed with the importance of 
 conveying their notions of "early religious instruction" to the "sus- 
 ceptible minds" of Catholic children, can have no objection that the 
 parents of the children, and teachers in whom the parents have confi- 
 dence, should do the same, provided no law is violated thereby, and 
 no disposition evinced to bring the children of other denominations 
 within its influence. 
 
 Your Petitioners, therefore, pray that your Honorable Body will 
 be pleased to designate as among the schools entitled to participate 
 in the Common School Fund, upon complying with the requirements 
 of the law and the ordinances cf the Corporation of the City, or for 
 such other relief as to your Honorable Body shall seem meet — St. 
 Patrick's school, St. Peter's school, St. Mary's school, St. Joseph's 
 school, St. James' school, St. Nicholas' school,Tranfiguration church 
 school, and St. John's school. 
 
 And your Petitioners further request, in the event of your Honor- 
 able Body's determining to hear your Petitioners, on the subject of 
 their Petition, that such time may be appointed as may be most 
 agreeable to your Honorable Body, and that a full session of your 
 Honorable Board be convened for that purpose. 
 And your Petitioners, kc 
 
 THOMAS OCONNOR, Chairman. 
 GREGORY DILLON, ) 
 ANDREW CARRIGAN, } Vice Chairmen, 
 PETER DUFFY, ) 
 Of a general meeting of the Catholics of the city of New York, con- 
 vened in the school-room of St. James' Church, fist of September, 
 
 1840. 
 
 B. O'Connor, J. Kellt, J. McLaughlin, Secretaries. 
 
REMONSTRANCES 
 
 Or the Trvsteees of the Public School Society, 
 and the Methodist Episcopal Church, Read and 
 Commented on in the following Debate. 
 
 To the Hon. the Board of Aldermen 
 
 of the City of New York : 
 
 The Memorial and Remonstrance of the Trustees of the Public 
 School Society of New York, respectfully represents : 
 
 That your memorialists learn that a petition from the Roman 
 Catholics ef this city is now before your honorable body, in which 
 they again ask for a portion of the school money in aid of the schools 
 under their charge. After the late unanimous decision of one branch 
 of the Municipal Government, in which the other was supposed 
 tacitly to unite, adverse to several petitions of the same kind from 
 Religious Societies, it is unexpected to your remonstrants, to be so 
 soon placed in a position which, in their opinion, renders it neces- 
 sary to oppose the application of a large and influential body of their 
 fellow citizens. But until the confidence which has been so long 
 reposed in them by the city government and the public generally, is 
 withdrawn, they feel it to be an imperious, though an unpleasant 
 duty, to remonstrate against what they deem a dangerous appli- 
 cation of funds raised for the promotion of common and general ed - 
 ucation. 
 
 The subject has, however, been so fully elucidated and ably argued, 
 in documents now among the public records, that your remonstrants 
 cannot hope to shed any additional light upon it. They therefore 
 beg leave to refer your honorable body to Document No. 80, of the 
 late Board of Assistant Aldermen, as containing the reasons on 
 which your remonstrants would rely, in opposing the applications 
 of religious societies for a portion of the school fund. It is believed 
 that no decision of the city government ever met with a more general 
 and cordial response in the public mind. And as the Roman Cath- 
 olics very recently issued an address to the people of this city and 
 state, urging at large their reasons for a separate appropriation of 
 school money, to which your remonstrants have replied, they now 
 present copies of said Documents, which they respectfully submit 
 to your honorable body, as containing matter relevant to the ques- 
 tion under consideration. 
 
 The petition of the Roman Catholics now pending presents, nev- 
 ertheless, some points which your remonstrants feel called upon to 
 notice. 
 
 By a misapprehension of the Law in relation to persons who are 
 conscientiously opposed to bearing arms, which is applicable to per- 
 sons of every religious persuasion, they attempt to adduce an argu- 
 ment in favor of the prayer of their petition, and say, that they only 
 claim the benefit of the same principle in regard to the education of 
 their children. Now the facts are, that the law imposes a fine, or 
 tax as an equivalent for personal military service, and in the event 
 of there being no property on which to levy, subjects such persons 
 to imprisonment, and numbers are every year actually confined in 
 the jails of this State. 
 
 With the religious opinions of the denomination of christians re- 
 ferred to, your remot.strants have nothing to do. In opposing the 
 claims of the Roman Catholic, and several other churches, to the 
 school money, they have confined their remarks to the broad gen- 
 eral grounds, alike applicable to all ; but the petitioners have seen 
 fit to single out areligious society by name, and intimate or indirect- 
 ly assert, not only that their peculiar religious views lead to insub- 
 ordination and contempt of parental authority, but that the Trustees 
 of the Public Schools, who are of this denomination, by reason of 
 their numbers or the '• controlling influence'' they exert, have intro- 
 duced the " same principle" into the public schools, and that their 
 effects are manifested in the conduct of the Catholic children who 
 have attended them. Your remonstrants feel bound, therefore, in 
 reply, to state that of the one hundred citizens who compose the 
 Board of Trustees, there are only twelve of the denomination thus 
 traduced, and of these six or seven accepted the situation by solici- 
 tation of the Board, for the purpose of superintending the manage- 
 ment of the colored schools, to which object they have almost ex- 
 clusively confined themselves ;— of the motive that induced this ex- 
 traordinary portion of the petition, your remonstrants will not trust 
 themselves to speak — of so much of it as conveys an idea that the 
 Trustees who are of this religious persuasion, introduce or attempt 
 to introduce into the public schools their own peculiar opinions, 
 they can only say that no one of the numerous and serious charges 
 brought against your remonstrants by the petitioners, is more entire- 
 ly destitute of foundation in fact. If a disposition existed in any 
 quarter to give a sectarian bins to the minds of the children, it will 
 readily be seen, that the most successful method would be through 
 the sf lection of t. achers. 
 
 In one of the Documents now submitted to your honorable body, 
 it is stated that in appointing teachers, no regard is had by the Trus- 
 tees to the religious profession of the candidates, and tnat six or 
 seven of the present number are Roman Catholics. From an en- 
 quiry now made it is found that only two of the teachers belon* to 
 the Society of " Friends >' 
 
 It will thu3 be seen that the charge made in the petition of the 
 Roman Catholics, ttfBt such of their children as have attended the 
 public schools are generally, and at an early age, imbued with a prin- 
 ciple, which they impute to a portion of the Trustees, falls to the 
 ground, and is proved to be as unfounded, as it is illiberal and un- 
 generous. 
 
 It is with regret that your remonstrants find themselves under the 
 painful necessity of saying, that the petition of the Catholics contains 
 garbled extracts and detached portions of some parts of <heir an- 
 nual reports in relation to religious instruction, and so arranged and 
 commented upon, as to convey a meaning directly opposite to the 
 one intended and clearly expressed in the original documents. 
 
 The same means are resorted to in quoting the language of the 
 Trustees when urging the importance of using measures for inducing 
 the poor to have their children educated. On different occasions, 
 your remonstrants have suggested to the Common Council, the ex- 
 pediency of requiring, by legal enactment, the attendance at some 
 " public or other daily school," of the numerous " vagrant children 
 who roam about our streets and wharves, begging and pilfering," 
 and this is tortured in the Catholic petition into a desire of " abridg- 
 ing the private liberties of their fellow citizens," and an acknow- 
 ledgement, on the part of the Trustees, " that they had not the con- 
 fidence of the poor." 
 
 The records of the schools will demonstrate that the industrious 
 and respectable portions of the laboring classes repose entire confi- 
 dence in the public school system and its managers. 
 
 The subject of objectionable matter in the books used in the pub- 
 lic schools, is so fully discussed in the papers now submitted to your 
 honorable body, that little more would seem to be called for under 
 this head. Finding their strenuous and long-continued efforts to in- 
 duce the Catholic clergy to unite in an expurgation of the books un- 
 availing, the Trustees commenced the work without them, and it is 
 now nearly completed. If any thing remains to which the petition- 
 ers can take exception, no censure can, by possibility, attach to 
 your remonstrants ; and the Trustees assert with confidence, that if 
 any has escaped them, there is now less matter objectionable to the 
 Roman Catholics, to be found in the books used in the public schools 
 than in those of any other seminary of learning, either public or 
 private, within this State. . 
 
 In conclusion, your remonstrants would remark, that they have 
 not thought it expedient, on this occasion to enter into a detailed 
 defence of their conduct, as regards all of the charges preferred by 
 the Roman Catholics. Those charges are before your honorable 
 body, and the Trustees will cheerfully submit to any inquiry that 
 you may see fit to institute in relation to them ; and even if it can 
 be shown that your remonstrants are as " eminently incompetent to 
 the superintendence of public education" as the petition ol the Ro- 
 man Catholics intimates, it would not, they respectfully suggest, 
 furnish any apology for breaking down one of the most important 
 bulwarks of the civ il and religious liberties of the American people. 
 
 Should your honorable body decide to hear the petitioners before 
 the collected Board, your remonstrants respectfully ask to be heard 
 on the same occasion in reply. 
 
 JVeu> Yoik, October 3d, 1340 
 
 ROBERT C. CORNELL, President. 
 A. P. Halsey, Secretary. 
 
 To the lion, the Common Council 
 
 of the City of Neic York : 
 
 The undersigned Committee, appointed by the Pastors of the 
 Methodist Episcopal Church in this cit_yw)n the part of said Pastors 
 and Churches, do most respectfully reprWeTft : 
 
 That they have heard with surprise an\l alarm, that the Roman 
 Catholics have renewed their application tVthe Common Council, 
 for an appropriation from the Common School Fund, for the support 
 ofthe schools under their own direction ; in which they teach, and 
 propose still to teach, their own sectarian dogmas : not only to their 
 own children, but to such Protestant children, as they may find 
 means to get into these schools. 
 
 Vour memorialists had hoped that the clear, cogent and unanswer- 
 able arguments, by which the former application for this purpose 
 was resisted, would have saved the Common Council from further 
 importunity. 
 
 It was clearly shown, that the Council could not legally make any 
 sectarian appropriation of the public funds; and it was as clearly 
 shown, that it would be utterly destructive ofthe whole scheme of 
 
public school instruction to do so, even if it could be legally done. 
 Bat it seems that neither the Constitution of the State, nor the pub- 
 He welfare, are to be regarded, when they stand in the way of Ro- 
 man Catholic sectarianism and exclusiveness. 
 
 It must be manifest to the Common Council, that if the Roman 
 Catholic claims are granted, all the other Christian denominations 
 will urge their claims for a similar appropriation ; and that the money 
 raised lor education by a general tax, will bf solely applied to the 
 purposes of prosely tism, through the medium of sectarian schools. 
 But if this were done, would it be the price of peace 'f or would it 
 not throw the apple of discord into the whole Christian community, 
 should we agree in the division of the spoils? Would each sect be 
 satisfied with the portion allotted to it 9 We venture to say that the 
 sturdy claimants who now beset the Council, would not be satisfied 
 with much less than the lion's share ; and we are sure that there are 
 other Protestant denominations beside ourselves, who would not pa- 
 tiently submit to the exaction. But when all the Christian sects 
 shall be satisfied with their individual share of the public fund, what 
 is to become of those children whose parents belong to none of 
 these sects, and who cannot conscientiously allow them to be edu- 
 cated iti the peculiar dogmas of any one of them ? The different 
 committees who, on a former occasion approached your honorable 
 body, have shown, that to provide schools for these only, would re- 
 quire little less than is now expended ; and it requires little arithme- 
 tic to show that when the religious sects have taken all, nothing will 
 remain for those who have not yet been able to decide which of the 
 Christian denominations to prefer. It must be plain to every im- 
 partial observer, that the applicants are opposed to the whole sys- 
 temcf public school instruction ; and it will be found that the un- 
 charitable exclusiveness of their creed must ever be opposed to all 
 public instruction, which is not under the direction of their own 
 priesthood. They may be conscientious in all this ; but though it 
 be no new claim on their part, we cannot yet allow them to guide 
 and control the consciences of all the rest of the community. We 
 are sorry that the reading of the Bible in the public schools, without 
 note or commentary, is .offensive to them ; but we cannot allow the 
 holy Scriptures to be accompanied with their notes and ommenta- 
 ries, and to be put into the hands of the children, who may hereaf- 
 ter be the rulers and legislators of our beloved country ; because, 
 among other bad things taught in these commentaries, is to be found 
 the lawfulnes of murdering heretics, and the unqualified submission 
 in all matters of conscience to the Roman Catholic Church. 
 
 But if the principle on which this application is based should be 
 admitted, it must be carried far beyond the present purpose. 
 
 If all are to be released from taxation when they cannot consci- 
 entiously derive any benefit from the disbursement of the money col- 
 lected, what will be done f r the Society of Friends, and other sects 
 who are opposed to war, under all circumstances. Many of these, 
 besides the tax paid on all foreign goods thus consumed, pay direct 
 duties at the Custom House, which go to the payment of the army 
 and to purchase the munitions of war. And even when the gov- 
 ernment finds it necessary to lay direct war taxes, these conscien- 
 tious sects aro compelled to pay their proportion on the ground that 
 the public defence requires it. So, it is believed, the public interest 
 requires the education of the whole rising generation ; because it 
 would be unsafe to commit the public liberty, and the perpetuation 
 of our republican institutions to those whose ignorance of their na- 
 ture and value, would render them careless of their preservation, or 
 the easy dupes of artful innovators ; and hence every citizen is re- 
 quired to contribute in proportion to his means to the public purpose 
 of universal education. 
 
 The Roman Catholics complain that books have been introduced 
 into the public schools, which are injurious to them as a body. It 
 is allowed, however, that the passages in these books, to which such 
 reference is made are chiefly, if not entirely, historical ; and we put 
 it to the candor of the Common Council to say whether any history 
 
 of Europe, for the last ten centuries, could be written, which could 
 
 cither omit to mention the Roman Catholic Church, or mention it 
 without recording historical facts unfavorable to that Church ? We 
 assert that if all the historical facts in which the Church of Rome 
 has taken a prominent part could be taken from writers of her own 
 communion only, the incidents might be made more objectionable 
 to the complainants, than any boo* to which they now object 
 
 History itself, then must be falsified for their accommodation ! and 
 yet they complain that the system of education adopted in the pub- 
 lic schools does not teach the sinfulness of lying ! They complain 
 that no religion is taught in these schools, and declare that any, even 
 the worst form of Christianity, would be better than none : arid yet 
 they object to the reading of the Holy Scriptures, which are the only 
 foundation of all true religion. Is it not plain, then, that they will 
 not be satisfied with any thing short of the total abandonment of 
 public school instruction, or the appropriation of such portion of the 
 public fund as they may claim, to their own sectarian purposes. 
 
 But this is not all. They have been most complaisantly offered 
 the censorship of the books to be used in the public schools The 
 committee to whom has been confided the management of these 
 schools in this city, offered to allow the Roman Catholic Bishop to 
 expurgate from these books any thing offensive to him. 
 
 But the offer was not accepted ; perhaps for the same reason that 
 he declined to decide on the admissibility of a book of extracts from 
 the Bible, which had been sanctioned by certain Bishops in Ireland. 
 An appeal, it seems had gone to the Pope on the subject, and nothing 
 could be said or done in the matter until bis Holiness had decided! 
 The Com mon Council of New York will therefore find, that when 
 they shall have conceded to the Roman Catholics of this city the 
 selection of books for the use of the public schools, that these books 
 must undergo the censorship of a foreign Potentate. We hope the 
 time is far distant when the citizens of this country will alio* any 
 foreign power to dictate to them in matters relating to either general 
 or municipal law. 
 
 We cannot conclude this memorial without noticing one other 
 ground on which the Roman Catholics, in their late appeal to their 
 fellow citizens, urged their sectarian claims, and excused their con- 
 scientious objections to the public schools. Their creed is dear to 
 them, it seems, because some of their ancestors have been martyrs 
 to their faith. This was an unfortunate allusion. Did not the Ro- 
 man Catholics know that they addressed many of their fellow citizens 
 who could not recur to the memories of their own ancestors without 
 being reminded of the revocation of the Edict of Nantz, the massacre 
 of St. Bartholomew's day, the fires of Sroithfield, or the crusade 
 against the Waldenses ? We would willingly cover these scenes with 
 the mantle of charity, and hope that our Roman Catholic fellow citi- 
 zens will in future avoid whatever has a tendency to rev.ve the 
 painful remembrance. 
 
 Your memorialists had hoped that the intolerance and exclusire- 
 ness which had characterized the Roman Catholic Church in Eu- 
 rope, had been greatly softened under the benign influences of our 
 civil institutions. The pertinacity with which their sectarian inter- 
 ests are now urged, has dissipated the illusion. We were content 
 with their having excluded us, " ex cathedra," from all claim to 
 h»avpn, for we were sure they did not possess the keys, notwith- 
 standing their confident pretension; nor aid we complain that they 
 would not allow us any participation in the benefits of purgatory, 
 for it is a place they have made for themselves, and of which they 
 may claim the exclusive propriety ; bat we do protest against any 
 appropriation of the public school fund for their exclusive benefit, or 
 for any other purposes whatever. 
 
 Assured that the Common Council will do what it is right to do 
 in the premises, we are, gentlemen, with great respect, 
 Your most obedient servants. 
 
 N. BANGS, 
 THOMAS E. BOND, 
 GEORGE PECK. 
 
DEBATE 
 
 ON THE 
 
 CLAIM OF THE CATHOLICS TO A PORTION OF THE COMMON SCHOOL FUND. 
 
 On Thursday, the 29th October, the Board of Aldermen 
 met in special session, for the purpose of hearing the argu- 
 ments of the Catholics in favor of their claim to a separate 
 portion of the Common School Fund, and the School 
 Society, and the Societies of the Methodist Episcopal Church 
 in opposition. The Board of Assistant Aldermen was 
 present, by invitation of the Board of Aldermen, to hear 
 the discussion. The deep interest which was felt in the 
 question by the community generally was exhibited by the 
 dense crowd which filled the spacious halls long before the 
 doors of the Council Chamber were thrown open, and by 
 the anxious solicitude which was manifested to hear the 
 debate. Some time elapsed before the Aldermen and the 
 gentlemen who were t© take part in the proceedings could 
 obtain a passage through the mass of human beings that 
 struggled for admission, even with the aid of a body of po- 
 lice officers, and great numbers of individuals were ulti- 
 mately unable to gain admission. 
 
 When the Board became organized, and some points of 
 form had been determined, it was agreed to hear the parties 
 in the order in which their petitions or remonstrances had 
 been received by the Council — viz. first the Catholics, then 
 the Public School Society, and lastly the Societies of the 
 Methodist Episcopal Church, which were respectively repre- 
 sented by the following Committees and Counsel: — The 
 Catholics, by the Right Rev. Bishop Hughes, the very 
 Rev. Dr. Power, Thomas O'Connor, Esq., Francis 
 Cooper, Esq., Dr. Hugh Sweeney, James M'Keon, 
 Esq., and James Kelij Esq. ; the School Society, by 
 Theodore Sedgewick, Esq., and Hiram Ketchum, 
 Esq. ; the Methodist Episcopal Churches, by the 
 Revs. Dr. Bangs, Dr. Bond, and George Peck. 
 
 Before entering on the discussion the reading of the 
 petition of the Catholics and the remonstrances from the 
 other Societies here represented, was called for by the Al- 
 derman of the Sixteenth Ward, and they were read ac- 
 cordingly by Mr. John Paulding, the Reader to the 
 Board. 
 
 The Right Rev. Bishop Hughes then rose to address 
 the Board in behalf of the Catholics, and spoke as follows : 
 
 Gentlemen of the Board of Aldermen : — 
 
 Unaccustomed as I am to address a body of gentlemen 
 such as I see here before me, I may not always be correct 
 in the manner of my address ; I hope, therefore, that any 
 mistakes of mine may be imputed by this Honorable Board, 
 to my inexperience. I would also, on the threshold of the 
 subject observe, that in no part of the discussion on this 
 question, so far as it has gone, am I conscious of having im- 
 puted to any gentleman who is opposed to the claim in 
 which I have so deep an interest, any motive or design of 
 a sinister character. I am sorry, therefore, that the Public 
 School Society should have been pleased to refer to the 
 language of our document as though imputation had thereby 
 been cast upon their motives. I am sure if they again re- 
 view our documents they will not find one solitary instance 
 of any imputation dishonorable to them personally as gen- 
 tlemen. We speak of their system apart from themselves; 
 and we ?peak of it with that freedom which it is the right 
 of American citizens to speak of the public actions and 
 public proceedings of public men ; but again will I repeat, 
 that in no instance to my knowledge has there been im- 
 puted to those gentlemen One solitary motive, one single 
 purpose, unworthy of their high standing and their respect- 
 able character. They have alleged, in some of their docu- 
 ments, that we charge them with teaching infidelity ; but 
 we have not done soj We charge it as the result of their 
 system, not that they are actively engaged in teaching infi- 
 delity ; and not only do we not say this, but we interpose 
 the declaration, that we do not believe such to be their inten- 
 tion, but that the system has gone beyond their intention. 
 Yet, after this, they ascribe to themselve^ these imputations, 
 and they cap their salvo by saying, that even the authors of 
 the address shrink from a picture of their own coloring — a 
 picture which they not only charge that we have drawn of 
 them, but also of all other classes and denominations of our 
 fellow-citizens. Now, I venture to repeat, that in no in- 
 stance have we imputed to them motives which can reflect 
 on them as honorable men. I make these observations in 
 the commencement, simply to show how much has been 
 written of the petitioners on assumptions which have no 
 foundation on anything that has been written or said by us. 
 I know well the Public School Society is an institution 
 highly popular in the city of New- York; but I should be 
 
sorry to suppose that those gentlemen would permit them- 
 selves to interpose that popularity between them and the 
 justice which we contend for when we seek that to which 
 we believe we have a legal right. At the same time it is 
 proper for me, at the commencement, to clear away ano- 
 ther objection which an attempt has been made, in both 
 the remonstrances that have been read, to oppose to the ex- 
 ceedingly simple principle for which we contend. The 
 attempt has been made, (and you will perceive the whole 
 document, which issued as a Report from the Board of As- 
 sistant Aldermen, as well as the remonstrances of the Pub- 
 lic School Society, and the Methodist Episcopal Church, is 
 based on the same false assumption,) to assume false pre- 
 mises in this matter, which arc, that we want this money 
 for the promotion of the ecclesiastical interests of our 
 Church. Now, if these Societies wish to enter their re- 
 monstrances against our petition they should first read the 
 language in which we have urged our claim, and if they 
 had, they would have saved themselves the trouble, in my 
 opinion, of reasoning on arguments which are but figments 
 of their own creation and no proposition of ours. Have 
 not we distinctly stated not only what we want, but, to 
 guard them against accusing us of what we do not want, 
 have we not said that we do not want the public money to 
 promote ecclesiastical interests, for, to this money, for such 
 a purpose, we have no right. And, also, have we not fur- 
 ther stated, that if it can be shown tltat we want the money 
 for this purpose, that we will abandon our claim — that 
 if it can be shown that we want it for sectarian interests 
 we will relinquish it altogether. We have said in the first 
 place — 
 
 " Y our petitioners will now invite the attention of yonr Honorable 
 Body to the objections and misrepresentations that have been urged 
 by the Public School Society to granting the claim of your petition- 
 ers. It is urged by them that it would be appropriating money 
 raised by general taxation to the support of the Catholic religion. 
 Your petitioners join issue with them, and declare unhesitatingly, 
 that if this objection can be established the claim shall be forthwith 
 abandoned. It is objected that though we are taxed as citizens, we 
 apply for the benefits of education as " Catholics." Your petition- 
 ers, to remove this difficulty, beg to be considered in their applica- 
 tion in the identical capacity in which they arc taxed — viz. as ClUzeni 
 of the commonwealth. It has been contended by the Public School 
 Society, that the law disqualifies schools which admit any profession 
 of religion from receiving any encouragements from the school fund. 
 Your petitioners have two solutions for this pretended difficulty. 
 First, Your petitioners are unable to discover any such disqualifica- 
 tion in law, which merely delegates to your Honorable body the 
 authority and discretion of determining what schools or societies 
 shall be entitled to its bounty. Secondly, Your petitioners are wil- 
 ling to fulfil the conditions of the law so far as religious teaching is 
 proscribed during school hours. In fine your petitioners, to remove 
 all objections, are willing that the ma'erial organization of their 
 schools, and the disbursements of the funds allowed for them, shall 
 be conducted, and made, by persons unconnected with the religion 
 of your petitioners, even the Public School Society, if it should please 
 your Honorable Body to appoint them for that purpose. The public 
 may then be assured that the money will not be applied to the sup- 
 port of the Catholic religion. 
 
 It is deemed necessary by your petitioners to save the Public 
 School Society the necessity of future misconception, thus to state the 
 things which are not petitioned for." 
 
 Yet, notwithstanding this clear and simple language, you 
 perceive both the remonstrances, of the School Society and 
 the Episcopal Methodists, go on this false issue, that we 
 want this money for sectarian and iliegal purposes ! Our 
 language could not be plainer than it was on this point, 
 and yet there has been uncharitable ncss enough in these 
 Societies to assert the contrary. I have deemed it neces- 
 sary to make this explanation at the commencement to 
 impress your minds, gentlemen, with what it is we seek 
 and what it is wc seek not, because I know a deal may be 
 done towards a proper elucidation of this subject by pre- 
 
 serving its simplicity. The remonstrants warn you, gen- 
 tlemen, against giving money for sectarian purposes. We 
 join them in that admonition. We contend that we look 
 in honesty and simplicity alone for the benefits of educa- 
 tion ; and as members of the commonwealth and as Ca- 
 tholics we seek but that which we believe to be just, and 
 legal, and right. 
 
 I shall now, gentlemen, review very briefly both the do- 
 cuments, because they submit to your Honorable Body the 
 grounds on which that claim, which we believe to be just, 
 is opposed. After the introduction of that from the Public 
 School Society, we find in the second paragraph the follow- 
 ing passages : — 
 
 " The subject, has, however, been so fully elucidated and ably 
 argued, in documents now among the public records, that your 
 remonstrants cannot hope to shed any additional light upon it. They 
 therefore beg leave to refer your honorable body to Document No. HO, 
 ol the Board of Assistant Aldermen, as containing the reasons on 
 which your remonstrant* would rely, in opposing the applications 
 of religious societies for a portion of the school fund. It is believed 
 that no decision of the City Government ever met with a more gene- 
 ral and cordial response in the public mind." 
 
 Ye3 it may well be so believed, lor the reason that that 
 whole document went on a falsi, isiiue, and therefore it was 
 thus believed. But if I prove, as I shall that the premises 
 had no foundation in reality then the arguments founded 
 thereon must fall to the ground, for they^ere but castles in 
 the air. It proceeds : — 
 
 " As the Roman Catholics very recently issued an address to the 
 people of this city and state, urging at large their reasons for a sepa- 
 rate appropriation of school money, to which your remonstrants have 
 replied, they now present copies of said Documents, which they 
 respectfully submit to your honorable body, as containing matter re- 
 levant to the question under consideration 
 
 " The petit. on of the Roman Catholics now pending presents, 
 nevertheless, some points which your remonstrants feci called upon 
 to no'Jce. 
 
 " By a misapprehension of the Law in relation to persons who are 
 conscientiously opposed to bearing arms, which is applicable to per- 
 sons of every religious persuasion, they attempt to adduce an argu- 
 ment in favor ot the prayer of their petition, and say, that they only 
 claim the benefit of the same principle in regard to the education of 
 their children. Now the facts arc, that the law imposes a fine, or 
 tax s an equivalent for personal military services, and in the event 
 of there being no properly on which to levy, subjects such persons to 
 imprisonment, and numbers are every year actually confined in the 
 gaols of this State." 
 
 Now I conceive the illustration there referred to was a 
 strong one. The parents and guardians of tender offspring 
 have a right connected with their nature by God himself in 
 his wise Providence, and they should be shown a strong 
 reason for transferring it to others. And I adduced it as 
 an illustration and as a strong one — why ? Because the 
 defence of the country is a thing connected with self- 
 existence and preservation ; and yet, si tender is the genius 
 of this happy country, of the rights of conscience it dis- 
 pensed with all those who had religious scruples from a 
 compliance with the law and changed it into a small fine, 
 whereby the right was shown, and also the disposition to 
 waive it. 
 
 " With the religious opinions of the denomination of Christians 
 referred to, your remonstrants have nothing to do. In opposing the 
 claims of the Roman Catholic, and several other Churches, to the 
 school money, they have confined their remarks to broad general 
 grounds alike applicable to all ; but the petitioners have set u fit to 
 single out a religious society by name, and intimate or indirectly 
 assert, not only that their peculiar religious views lead to insubordi- 
 nation ana contempt of parental authority, but that the trustees of the 
 Public Schools, who are of this denomination by their numbers or the 
 " controlling influence" they exert, have introduced the 1 same prin- 
 c pie' into the public schools, and that their effects are manifested in 
 the conduct ot the Calholx ch ldren who have attended them." 
 
 Now I am exceedingly surprised that tnose gentlemen 
 should go so far from the text to draw reproach upon them- 
 selves. We said nothing to authorize this language. We 
 
9 
 
 simply stated the fact; we mentioned the circumstance of 
 the controlling influence of those holding peculiar sectarian 
 views ; but we did not draw the conclusion whether the 
 insubordination of the children of our poor people was the 
 result of the principles taught in the schools or of a want of 
 domestic influence. And yet these gentlemen have gone 
 on to draw upon themselves an imputation of which we re- 
 spectfully disclaim the authorship. They proceed : 
 
 " Your remonstrants feel bound, therefore, in reply, to state, that 
 of the one hundred citizens who compose the hoard of trustees, there 
 are only twelve of the denomination thus traduced, 
 
 Now to this charge of traducing we beg to demur. 
 
 " and of these six or seven accepted the situation by solicitation 
 
 of the Board, for the purpose of superintending the management of 
 the colored schools, to which object they have almost exclusively con- 
 fined themselves." 
 
 Now I should be one of the last to detract from the 
 merits of this denomination. Some of them I have known 
 personally, and others by their history, and my opinion has 
 always been of them that they are among the foremost in 
 every benevolent act and social virtue, and to lend their 
 arm to strengthen the weak and the oppressed ; and there- 
 fore it is no reproach to them that they take the lead in this 
 work of benevolence for which I give them credit. 
 
 They go on to say : 
 
 " Of the motive tint induced this extraordinary portion of the pe- 
 tition, your remonstrants will not trust themselves to speak,'" 
 
 It might be recollected, gentlemen, if there were a lean- 
 ing that way it was after the publication of the "Reply" 
 to our ("Address," which, though it has the name, is no 
 reply to our arguments. It is not an answer ; but in it 
 they take the occasion to sneer at us, as I shall soon have 
 occasion to show ; yet I may here observe that it would 
 have been better if they had addressed themselves to the 
 principles of eternal justice on which we rest. 
 
 " Of so much of it," they add " as conveys an idea, that the trustees 
 w'10 are of this religions persuasion, introduce or attempt to intro- 
 duce into the public schools their Own peculiar opinions 
 
 We never charged that they did. 
 
 "they can only say that no one of the numerous and serious 
 
 charges brought against your remonstrants by the petitioners, is 
 more entirely destitu'e of foundation in fact. If a disposition ex- 
 isted in any quarter to give a sectarian bias to the minds of the 
 children, it will readily be seen, that the most successful method 
 would be through the selection of teachers." 
 
 Why there was no necessity for this vindication at all. 
 
 "J" one of the documents now submitted to your Honorable 15cdy, 
 it is stated, that in appointing teachers, no regard is had by the trus- 
 tees to the religions profession of the candidates, and that six or seven 
 of the present number are Roman Catholics." 
 
 I have seen this statement figure in almost every docu- 
 ment of that society, and yet I have not been able to find 
 "six or seven of the present number who are Roman Ca- 
 tholics ;" and I doubt if they can be found, except they arc 
 such Roman Catholics as we see our children become alter 
 they have been in these public schools ; that is Catholics 
 who have no feelings in common with their church — Calho- 
 lics who are ashamed of the name, because in the school 
 books and from the teachers they hear of its professors only 
 as "Papists.," and of the religion itself only as "Popery." 
 It is such as these, I fear, that pass as Catholics. I only 
 know of one who is worthy of the name. 
 
 " From an inquiry now mode it is found that only two of the teach- 
 ers belong to the society of Friends.' " 
 
 And I don't suppose that better teachers could be obtain- 
 ed anywhere, when confined within the limits prescribed ; 
 except they have the privilege to introduce religions instruc- 
 tion. And without that it matters but little whether they are 
 of the society of Friends or not. They continue: 
 
 " It ia with regret that your remonstrants find themselves und< r 
 the painful necessity, of saying, (hat the petition of the Catholics < ob- 
 tains garbled extracts and detached portions of some parts of tin ir 
 annual repoits in rclaiion u religious instruction, and so anuti^cd 
 
 and commented upon, a3 to convey a meaning directly opposite to the 
 one intended and clearly expressed in the original documents." 
 
 Now I will allow the reading of it and if there are any 
 garbled extracts there I will be the first to correct it. But 
 I am surprised when we quote the words of their documents 
 that they should urge this charge. Let the documents be 
 read. I have no dread on this subject. 
 
 " The same means are resorted to in quoting the languaee of the 
 trustees when urging the importance of using measures, tor inducing 
 the poor to have their children educated. ' On different occasions, 
 your remonstrants have suggested to the Common Council, the ex- 
 pediency of requiring, hy legal enactment, the attendance at some 
 1 public or other daily school,' of the numerous ' variant children who 
 roam about our streets and wharves, begging and pilfering,' and this 
 is tortured in the Catholic petition into a desire of 'abndsng tha 
 private liberties of their fellow-citizens,' and an acknowledgment, 
 oa the part of :hc trustees, ' that they hud not the confidence of the 
 pcor.' " 
 
 Yet I should think, gentlemen, such a reluctance to attend 
 their schools as to make it necessary to apply for a legal 
 enactment to procure first the money and then to compel 
 an attendance, would show that they did want that confi- 
 dence. I know they have not the confidence of our body. 
 Yes, they have obtained two enactments from the Common 
 Council depriving ti e parents in time of need — even when 
 cold and starvation have set in upon them — of public relief 
 unless the children were sent to these or some other schools. 
 And I have seen them urging ladies in their public docu- 
 ments, to obtain their confidence by soothing words ; and 
 I have seen them urging employers to make it the condi- 
 tion of employment. Yet after all this they pretend that they 
 have had the confidence of the poor. I do not say that they 
 have not merited it according to iheir views ; but I do Lot 
 think they should expect all mankind to submit to their 
 viev.s of the matter, to the sacrifice of their own. 
 
 They say : 
 
 " The records of the schools will demonstrate that the industr'ous 
 and respectable ; pot lions of the Ll-oring classes repose entire confi- 
 dence in the public school system and its manajreis." 
 
 Then that portion in behalf of whom I stand here is not 
 to be classed with "tlv. industrious and respectable!" 
 
 They then proceed to another point: 
 
 T he subj?ct of objectionable matter in the books used in the public 
 schcols, is so fully discussed in the papers r.ow submitted to youi ho- 
 norable body, that little more would seem to be called for under this 
 head. Finding titer attentions and long-continued efforts to induce 
 the Catholic cleigy to unite in an expurgation of the bcoks unavail- 
 ing, the trustees commenced the woik without them, and it is now 
 neatly completed. If any thing remains, to which the petitioners 
 can take except ion, no censure c an, by possibility, attach to ycur re- 
 menstrants ; and the trustees assert with confidence, that if any has 
 escaped them, there is now less matter cbjcctionable to the Roman 
 Catholics, to be found in the hook? used in the public schools, than 
 in those of any other seminary ct learning, either public or private, 
 within this State." 
 
 Now they could not adopt a worse test, for I defy ycu to 
 find a reading book in either public or private seminary, 
 that in respect to Catholics is not full of ignorance. Not a 
 book. For if it were clear of this it would not be popular; 
 and if they refer to this then, they refer to a standaid which 
 we repudiate. Cut it must be remembered those people can 
 send their children to those schcols or keep them at heme. 
 They are not taxed for their suppoit. But here we are. 
 It is the public money which is hcic used to preserve the 
 black blots which have been attempted to be fixed on the Ca- 
 tholic name. They say again, (and it is an idea that will 
 go exceedingly well with the public at laige, for it will show 
 how amiable and conciliating arc these gentlemen) — that 
 they have submitted the books to us as though we have no- 
 thing to do but to maik out a passage and it will disappear. 
 But are we to take the odium of erasing passages which 
 they hold to be true? Have they the right to make such an 
 offer? And if we speud the necessary time in reviewing 
 
10 
 
 the books to discover passages to be expurgated, have they 
 given Us a pledge that they will do it, or that they will not 
 even then keep them in. Have they given us a pledge that 
 they will do it as far as their denomination is concerned? 
 And, then, after all the loss of time which it would require 
 to review these books, they can either remove the objection- 
 able passages, or preserve them as they see (it. An indi- 
 vidual cannot answer for a whole body. They may make 
 a fine offer which may be calculated to impose on the pub- 
 lic, but if we put the question if they are able and if they 
 are willing, I should like to know whether they can, and 
 will, pass a law to show us that they are sincere and that the 
 object can be carried out? That would alter the case; for 
 we may correct one passage to-day, and another next week; 
 and then another body may come into power, and we may 
 have to petition again and again. Could they then do it if 
 they would And should they it" they could ? 
 They add : 
 
 " In conclusion, your remonstrants would remark, iliat they lnve 
 not thought it expedient, on this occasion to enter inio a detailed de- 
 fence of their conduct, as regards all of the charges preferred hy the 
 Roman Catholics. Those charges are before your honorable body, 
 and the trustees will cheerfully suhm.t to any inquiry that you may 
 6ec fit to institute in relation to them ; and even if it can be shown 
 that your remonstrants are as 1 eminently incompetent, to the super- 
 intendence of public education' as the petition ot the Roman Catho- 
 lics intimates, it would not, they respectfully suggest, furnish any 
 apology for breaking down, one of the most important bulwaiks of 
 the civd and religious liberties of the American people." 
 
 This much then as regards this document, which it will 
 be perceived goes on the false assumption that we want this 
 money for a sectarian purpose, because it was so referred 
 to in the report of the Committee of the Board of Assistant 
 Aldermen, which denied our claim ; for when I come to 
 that it will be found that every proposition in it goes on the 
 assumption that we wish this money for religious purposes. 
 If we did it would be just to deny it to us. But I will now 
 take up another document, and I regret that I cannot treat 
 it with the respect I would otherwise wish to do. The docu- 
 ment from the Public School Society, however it might 
 have been led aside, and however feeble in its reasoning, 
 contained nothing I trust and believe which was intended 
 to be disrespectful to us. It was couched in language at 
 which I cannot take offence ; though it was weak in its 
 principles, its reasoning was decent. I cannot say as 
 much for this which is from 
 
 " The undersigned committee, appointed by the pastors of the 
 
 Methodist Episcopal Church in this city." 
 They commence by observing, 
 " That thev h ive heard with surprise and alarm" — 
 They should have seen our petition instead of taking 
 
 "hearsay" for their authority. 
 
 — " that the Roman Culholics have renewed their application to the 
 Common Council for an appropriation from the Common School 
 Fund, for the support, of the schools under their own direction, in 
 which they leach, and propose still to teach, their own sectarian 
 dogmas." 
 
 Where did they find that? Where did they find that 
 statement? I should like to know from the gentlemen who 
 signed this remonstrance where they have their authority 
 for such an assertion? We disclaim it in the petition 
 against which they remonstrate. It shows then how much 
 trust can be placed in "hearsay," when they should and 
 might have examined the petition against which they re- 
 monstrate, in which they can find no such thing. 
 
 " In which tfeey teach, and propose still to teach, their own sectari- 
 an dogmas : not only to their own children, but to such Pio'.cstant 
 children, as they may find means to set into these schools." 
 
 I ask these gentlemen asain what authority they have for 
 such an assertion? I should like to see the argument which 
 gives them their authority to use language and to make a 
 Si alement so palpably false as this is. 
 
 " Your memorialists had hoped that the clear, co;ent, and unan 
 
 swcrablc arguments, by which the former application for this purpose 
 was resisted, would have saved the Common Council from fuitber 
 
 importunity." 
 
 vVc shall see whether the arguments were so clear, co- 
 gent, and unanswerable by and bye. 
 
 " It was clearly shown, that the Council could not legally make any 
 sectarian appropriation of the public funds; and it was clearly shown, 
 that it would be utterly destructive of the whole fcheme of public 
 school instruction to do so, even if it could be legally done. But it 
 seems that neither the constitution of the State, nor the public wel- 
 fare, are to be regarded, when they etand in the way of Roman Ca- 
 tholic sectarianism and exclusivenes6." 
 
 Thsre is an inference for you ; and a very unfounded 
 one it is too. 
 
 " It rnusL be manifest to the Common Council, that if the Roman 
 Catholic claims arc granted, all the other christian denominations 
 will urge Uieir claims lor a similar appropriation" — 
 
 And I say they have the right to do it. I wish they 
 would do it, for I believe it would be better for the future 
 character of the city, and for its fame, whan this generation 
 shall have passed away. If they did claim it and the claim 
 was granted, then an effort would be made to raise good 
 and pious and honest men. 
 
 " and that the money raised for education by a general tax, will 
 
 be solely applied to the purposes of proselytism, through the medium 
 of sectarian schools. Bui if this were done, would it be the price of 
 peace? or would it not throw the apple of discord in.o the whole 
 Christian cominiiuiiy ? Should wc agree in the division of the 
 s) oils 7" 
 
 I am exceedingly sorry that the gentlemen who drew up 
 the remonstrance had not more confidence in the power of 
 their own religious principle than to suppose that it would 
 be necessary to contend violently for what they call the 
 "spoils." We have submitted to be deprived of them for 
 years and we have no*, manifested such a disposition ; and 
 I am surprised that they who understand so much of the 
 power of religion should attach so much value to the little 
 money which is to be distributed as to suppose that it would 
 set Christians — professing Christians — together by the ears 
 in its distribution. 
 
 " Should we agree in the division of the spoils 7 Would each 
 sect be satisfied with the portion allotted to it ? We venture to say, 
 that the sturdy claimants who now beset the Council, would not be 
 satisfied with much less than the lion's share ; and we are sure that 
 there are other Protestant uenominations, besides ourselves, wlo 
 would not patiently submit to the exaction." 
 
 After what they have said by authoiity as the grounds of 
 their opposition, where, instead, they should have had history 
 for their guide, I am not surprised that they should prophe- 
 sy in the matter. I too may prophesy, and I will say that 
 the "sturdy claimants" are as respectable as they are, and 
 I trust it will never be attributable to us that we claim more 
 than is our common right, and if that should be violated 
 with respect to the Methodist Episcopal denomination, we 
 shall be far from the ranks of those who may be the vio- 
 late s. 
 
 " But when all the Christian sects shall be satisfied with their in- 
 dividual share of the public fund, what is to become of those children 
 whose parents belong to none of these sects, and who cannot consci- 
 entiously allow them to be educated in the peculiar dogmas of any 
 one of them ? The different committees who, on a former occasion 
 approached your honorable body, have shown, that to provide schools 
 for these only, would require little less than is now expended ; and 
 it requires little arithmetic to show that when the religious sects 
 have taken all, nothing will remain for those who have not yet been 
 able to d< cide, which of the Christian denominations :o prefer. It 
 must he p'.jin to every impartial observer, that the applicants are op- 
 posed to the whole system of public school instruction." 
 
 Have we said so? And on what authority have these 
 gentlemen the right to say it if we have not? Where are 
 their dtti? And yet they come before this nororable body 
 and make such assertions with the sanction of their whole 
 Church! 
 
 " And it will be found, that the uncharitable ex< lusiveness of their 
 ciefd, must ever be opposed to all public inst ictim, which is not 
 
under the direction of their own priesthood. They rray be co ci- 
 emious in all this ; but though it be no new claim on their par we 
 cannot yet allow them to guide and control the consciences of all the 
 rest of the community." 
 
 Why, it would be a silly and absurd thing on our part to 
 look for it. But we never thought of it. It is a fiction 
 of these gentlemen's own creation. I contend we ask 
 nothing for the community but for ourselves, and I trust it 
 will be granted if it is right, and if we can be shown that it 
 is not right we will abandon it cheerfully. But their asser- 
 tion is wholly destitute of foundation. 
 
 " We are sorry that the reading of the Bible, in the public schools, 
 without note or commentary, is offensive to them ; but we cannot 
 allow the holy Scriptures to be accompanied with their notes a;id 
 commentaries 
 
 Have we asked such a thing? or in any way solicited 
 it? 
 
 " and to be put into the hands of the children, who may hereafter 
 
 be the rulers and legislators of our beloved country ; because among 
 other bad things taught in these commentaries is to be found the 
 lawfu'nesa of murdering heretics ; and the unqualified submission 
 in all matters of conscience to the Roman Catholic Church." 
 
 I have a feeling of respect for many of their denomina- 
 tion but npt for the head or the heart of those who drew this 
 document up. Here it states an unqualified falsehood. 
 Here it puts forth a false proposition, and that proposition 
 has been introduced here as a slander. I can prove that it 
 is so. And depending on the confidence here reposed in 
 me, I propose and pledge myself to forfeit a thousand dol- 
 lars, to be appropriated in charities as this council may 
 direct, if those gentlemen can prove the truth of this allega- 
 tion ; provided they agree to the same forfeiture to be ap- 
 propriated in a similar manner, if they fail to establish its 
 truth. If they can prove that the Catholic Church sanctions, 
 or has made it lawful, to murder heretics, I will forfeit that 
 sum. I feel indignant that we should be met, when we 
 come with a plain, and reasonable, and honest request to 
 submit to the proper authorities, with slanders such as that, 
 and that in the name of religion which is holy. I wish 
 them to hear what I say. I know very well their books tell 
 them so ; but they should look at the original and not at 
 secondary authorities when they assail our reputation and 
 our rights. 
 
 "But if the principle on which this application is based should be 
 admitted, it must be carried far beyond the present purpose. If all 
 are to be released from taxation when they cannot conscientiously de- 
 rive any benefit from the disbursement of the money collected, what 
 will be done for the Society of Friends, and other sects who are op- 
 posed to war under all circumstances." 
 
 With that I have nothing to do and therefore I will pass 
 on to another point. 
 
 " The Roman Catholics complain that books have been introduced 
 Into the public schools, which are injurious to them as a body. It is 
 allowed, however, that the passages in these books, to which such re- 
 ference is made, are chiefly, if not entirely, historical ; and we put it 
 to the candor of the Common Council to say whether any history of 
 Europe, for the last ten centuries, could be written, which could 
 either omit to mention the Roman Catholic Church, or mention it 
 without recording historical facts unfavorable to that church ?" 
 
 And this is what the remonstrants call a strong issue. 
 They assert that no history could be written which could 
 either omit to mention the Roman Catholic Church, or 
 mention it without recording historical facts unfavorable to 
 the Catholic Church. If this be the case I ask you whether 
 as citizens entitled to the rights of citizens, we are to be 
 compelled to send our children to schools which cannot 
 teach our children history without blackening us. But 
 again they say, 
 
 " We assert that if all the historical facta in which the Church of 
 Rome has taken a prominent part could be taken from writers of her 
 own communion only, the incidents might be made, more objectiona- 
 ble to the complainants, than any book to which they now object." 
 
 No doubt of it ; and it only proves that Catholic hi-tori- 
 
 ans have no interest to conceal what is the truth. But I 
 contend that there are pages in Catholic history brighter 
 than any in the history of Methodism ; and that there are 
 questions and passages enough for reading lessons, without 
 selecting such as will lead the mind of the Catholic child to 
 be ashamed of his ancestors. The Methodist Episcopal 
 Church is a respectable church, and I am willing to treat 
 it with becoming respect; but it is a young chinch; it is 
 not so old as the Catholic Church and therefore has fewer 
 crimes; but I contend again it has fewer virtues to boa^t 
 of. And in its career of a hundred years it has done as 
 little for mankind as any other denomination. 
 
 " History itself, then, must be falsified for their accommodation ; 
 and yet they complain that the system of education adopted in the 
 public schools does not teach the sinfulness of lying! 
 
 We shall come to that presently. 
 
 " They complain that no religion is taught in these school?, and 
 declare that any, even the worst form of Chi istiaiiity, wouid be better 
 than none; and yet they object to the reading of the Holy Scriptures, 
 which are the only foundation of all true religion. Is it not plain, 
 then, that they will not be satisfied with any thing short of the total 
 abandonment of public school instruction, or the appropriat on of 
 such portion of the public fund as they may claim, to their own sec- 
 tarian purposes." 
 
 All the time they go on the false issue. They charge 
 that which we disclaim, and they reason on a charge of their 
 own invention, and which we never authorized. Now as 
 I have a word to say about the Holy Scriptures, I may as 
 well say it at this, as at any other time. Their assumption 
 is that because the Scriptures are read, sufficient precaution 
 is taken against infidelity. But I do not agree with them 
 in that opinion, and I will give my reason. What is the 
 reason that there is such a diversity of sects all claiming the 
 Holy Scriptures as the centre from which they draw their 
 respective coutradictcry systems? that book which ap- 
 pears out of school by the use made of it, to be the source 
 of all dissension, when it does not come to the minds of 
 children with such authority as to fix on their minds any 
 definite principles. As regards us, while the Protestants 
 say theirs is the true version we say it is not so. We treat 
 the Scriptures reverently, but the Protestant version of the 
 Scriptures is not a complete copy, and as it has been altered 
 and changed, we do not look upon it as giving the whole 
 writings which were given by the inspiration of the Holy 
 Spirit. We object not to the Holy Scriptures, but to the 
 Protestant version without note or comment. We think 
 it too much to ask Protestants to relinquish theirs and 
 take ours for the use of the pub'ic schools. If we could ask 
 you — if we could propose that you should take our book — 
 if we should ask you to put out the Protestant Scriptures 
 and take ours, with our note and comment, do you think 
 Protestants would agree to it? Do you not think we should 
 be arraigned as enemies of the word of God — for that is one 
 charge made when it is sought to denounce us. When we 
 speak language of this kind, instead of understanding us 
 according to our comprehension of the subject, they charge 
 that we are enemies to the Holy Scriptures. But to object 
 to their version is not to object to the Holy Scriptures; and 
 lam prepared to show them that no denomination has done 
 so much in the true sense for the Scriptures as the Catholic 
 Church. 
 
 The remonstrants add : 
 * " But this is not all. They have been most complaisantly offered 
 the censorship of the books to be used in the public schools. The 
 committee to whom has been confided the management of these 
 schools in this city, offered to allow the Roman Catholic Bishop to 
 expurgate from these Looks any thing offensive to him." 
 
 And now they go out of their way to sneer at us, and you 
 will observe the flippancy with which they do it. 
 " But the offer was not accepted; perhaps, fer the eame rcaion 
 
12 
 
 that he declined to decide on the admissibility of a hook of extracts 
 from the Bible, which had been sanctioned by certain Roman Bi- 
 shops in Ireland. An appeal, it seems, had gone to the Pope on the 
 subject, and nothing could be said or done in the matter until his 
 Holiness had decided. The Common Council of New York will 
 therefore find, that when they shall have conceded to the Roman Ca- 
 tholics of this city the selection of books for the use of the public 
 schools, that these books must undergo the censorship of a foreign 
 Potentate. We hope the time is far distant when the citizens of this 
 country will allow any foreign power to dictate to them in matters 
 relating to either general or municipal law." 
 ^ Prophets again ; but not prophets of charity. I, sir, say 
 not prophets of good-will, for there is something more in 
 their souls than the public welfare. There is something in 
 their insinuation that is insulting, and a tone which does 
 not show a mind enlightened and enlarged, and an appre- 
 ciation of equal justice and equal rights. Just their way. 
 They hear that an appeal has gone to the Pope ; and if we 
 desired to appeal, also, we should claim the right to do it 
 without asking permission from any one. Catholics all over 
 the world do it when their consciences make it a duty, but 
 not in matters of this kind. "These books must undergo 
 the censorship of a foreign Potentate !" Now wc regard 
 him only as supreme in our Church, and there's an end 
 of it. 
 
 " We cannot conclude this memorial without noticing one other 
 ground on which the Roman Catholics, in their late appeal to their 
 fellow citizens, urged their sectarian claims, and excused their con- 
 scientious objections to the public schools. Their creed is dear to 
 them, it seems, because some of their ancestors have been martyrs to 
 their faith. This was an unfortunate allusion." 
 
 Some ! " Some of their ancestors have been martyrs to 
 their faith." I speak of the Catholics of Great Britain and 
 Ireland, and when you reflect on the bigotted and unjust 
 laws which Great Britain fouuded against all that were Ca- 
 tholics, by which their churches were wrested from them, 
 and a bribe was offered as an inducement to the double 
 crime of murder and of perjury, when it authorized any 
 man to bring the head of a Catholic to the commissioner, 
 and if he would only swear it was the head of a priest he 
 got the same price as for the head of a wolf, no matter 
 whose head it was — and when legislation of that kind con- 
 tinued for centuries, this you must agree with me, was being 
 martyrs indeed. But when have the Methodists shown a 
 sympathy for those contending for the rights of conscience? 
 When the Dissenters of England claimed to be released 
 from the operation of the "Test and Corporation" act 
 by which they were excluded from civil office, did the 
 Methodist Episcopal Church assist them ? Not a solitary 
 petition went from them for the enlargement of their free- 
 dom. And is it a wonder that we look to conscience and 
 admire those who had the firmness to suffer for conscience 
 sake 1 By the penal laws against Catholics the doors of 
 Parliament were closed against us, if we had a conscience, 
 for it required us to take an oath which we did not believe 
 to be true, and therefore we could not swear it. There it 
 is, sir; it is because we have a conscience, because we re- 
 spect it, that we have suffered, and while virtue is admired 
 on earth, the fidelity of the people that are found standing 
 by the right of conscience will command the admiration of 
 the world. And yet, wc are told, it was an unfortunate al- 
 lusion ! 
 
 " Did not the Roman Catholics know, that they addressed many 
 of their fellow citizens who could not recur to the memoirs of their 
 ancestors without being reminded of the revocation of the Edict of 
 Nantz" — 
 
 They had nothing to do with it. 
 
 " the massacre of St. Bartholomew's day, the fires of Smithfield" — 
 What is that to us ? Are we the people that took part in 
 that? 
 
 — " or the crusade against the Waldenses ? We would willingly 
 cover these scenes with the mantle of charity" — 
 
 They had better not make the attempt, for their mantle is 
 too narrow. 
 
 " and hope that our Roman Catholic fellow citizens will in future 
 avoid wh never has a tendency to revive the painful rcniembiam 
 
 Let them enter upon that chapter and discuss the charita- 
 bleness of their religion, and I am prepared to prove — I 
 speak it with confidence in the presence of this honorable 
 assembly— that the Catholic religion is more charitable to 
 those that depart from her pale, than any other that ever was 
 yoked in unholy alliance with civil power. 
 
 " Your memorialists had honed that the intolerance and excluthre- 
 ness which had characterized the Roman Catholic Church in Europe, 
 had been greatly softened under thebeni»n influei.ces of our civil in- 
 stitutions. Th ■ pertinacity with which "their sectarian interest* are 
 new urged, has dissipated the illusion." 
 
 Sectarian interests, again, although we have disclaimed 
 them. 
 
 " We were content with their having excluded us, « ex cathedra,' 
 from all claim to heaven, for we were sure they did not possess the 
 keys, notwithstanding their confident pretensions ;" 
 
 Why they need not be uneasy about our excluding them 
 from heaven, for their opinion is that they have no chance 
 to enter if they have any thing to do with us; and therefoie 
 our excluding them is of no avail, 
 
 — " nor did we complain they would not allow us any participation 
 in the benefits of purgatory" — 
 
 Pray what has that to do with Common School Educa- 
 tion ? 
 
 " fer it - a place they have made for themselves, and of which they 
 may claim the exclusive property ;" 
 
 Well it is no matter whether we believe in purgatory or 
 not; it is no matter for the Common Council to decide. — 
 But if they are not satisfied with our purgatory, and wish to 
 go farther, they may prove the truth of the proverb which 
 says "they may go farther and fare worse." 
 
 " but we do protest against any appropriation of the public school 
 fund for their exclusive benefit, or for any other purposes whatever. 
 Assured that the Common Council will do what it is right to do in 
 the premises, we are, gentlemen, with great respect, your most obe- 
 dient servants, N. BANGS, 
 
 THOMAS E. BOND. 
 GEORGE PECK." 
 
 And now I have gone through these two remonstrances, both 
 of which, it will be seen, refer to the document of the Board 
 of Assistant Aldermen, and rest their opposition on the 
 same ground. Of that document, I will pass over the intro- 
 duction, but I may obseive that its authors, by what influ- 
 ence I am unable to say, have been made to rest their 
 report upon an issue such as I have already described, and 
 for which our petition furnishes no basis. I will first call 
 your attention to the following observations: — 
 
 " The Petitioners who appeared, also contended that they con- 
 tributed, in common with all other citizens who were taxed lor the 
 purpose, to the accumulation of the Common School Fund, and that 
 they were therefore entitled to a participation in its advantages ; that 
 now they receive no benefit from the fund, inasmuch as the membeis 
 of the Catholic Churches could not conscientiously send their chil- 
 dren to schools in which the Teligious doctrines of their fathers 
 were exposed to ridicule or censure. The truth and justice of the 
 firs' branch of this proposition 
 
 That is, the payment of taxes. 
 
 " cannot be questioned. The correctness of the latter part of 
 
 the argument, so far as the same relates to books or exercises of any 
 kind in the Public Schools, reflecting on the Catholic Church was 
 den ied by the School Society." 
 
 Now it is to be remembered that this denial, of anything 
 objectionable in the books of the Public School Society 
 was made at the period of the last application. I am per- 
 suaded those gentlemen, if they had known there was any- 
 thing objectionable to the Catholics, would not have denied 
 it. I am sure they believed there was nothing, and from 
 this circumstance I think I may fairly draw this inference, 
 that they had not paid that attention to the books which they 
 should have done, knowing the variety of denominations 
 
13 
 
 contributing to this fund and entitled to its benefits ; or 
 kuowtng this and the feelings and principles of Catholics, 
 that the/ were incompetent for the proper dischaiga of their 
 responsible duties. It is only on one of these two grounds 
 that I can account for their denial. But since that time 
 they have not only admitted that the objection was correct, 
 but they have expunged passages from the books which at 
 the time of this denial they said did not exist. I shall pass 
 on now to the two questions on which the decision of the 
 Committee was made to rest. The first is, 
 
 " Have the Common Council of this city, under the existing laws 
 relative to Common Schools in the city of New-York, a legal 
 right to appropriate any portion of the School Fund to religious 
 corporations .'" 
 
 Whether they have or not one thing is clear and certain, 
 that it is not as a " Religious Corporation" that we apply 
 for it ; and it seems to me that this should have struck the 
 attention of the Public School Society, and the other gen- 
 tlemen who have remonstrated. We do not apply as a re- 
 ligious b^dy — we a^iply in the identical capacity in which 
 we are taxed — as citizens of the commonwealth, without an 
 encroachment on principle or the violation of any man's 
 conscience. But, secondly, they ask — 
 
 " Would the exercise of such power be in accordance with the 
 spirit of the Constitution, and the nature of our government ? 
 
 Certainly not. If the Constitution and government have 
 determined that no religious denomination shall receive 
 any civil privilege the exercise of such power will not be in 
 conformity with the spirit of the Constitution and the nature 
 of our government. But there is throughout and in all these 
 documents a squeamishness, a false delicacy, a persuasion 
 that everything which excludes religion abroad is right and 
 liberal. It would be unnecessary for me to follow this re- 
 portseutence by sentence if there had not been so muchreli- 
 ance placed on it by those who have remonstrated ; but as 
 so much consequence has been attached to it I will call 
 your attention to some other passages. They go on to 
 say: 
 
 " Private associations and religious corporations were excluded 
 from th° management of the fund and the government of the schools. 
 Private interest, under this system, could not appropriate the public 
 treasure to private purposes, and religious zeal could not divert it to 
 the purposes of proselytism." 
 
 Why there is nothing of the kind intended. We have 
 been driven by the obligation of our consciences and at 
 our expense, which we are poorly able to bear, to provide 
 schools, but they are not convenient, they are not well 
 ventilated, and are not well calculated to give that develop- 
 ment to your young citizens which they ought to have ; 
 why argue, theu, against religious corporations, and, in 
 treating this question, bring prejudices into view which 
 ought to have no existence in reality? They then go on 
 to give the history and origin of the present law and of the 
 Public School Fund, and it seems that for a period of time, 
 and a long period, the legislature designated the schools 
 which might participate in this bounty. Each religious 
 denomination provided for the instruction of its own poor; 
 they had provided schools, and their exertions were honor- 
 able and laudable. The legislature granted its aid, and the 
 respective societies were encouraged to go on with the good 
 work, and they did go on year after year, and then there 
 was never heard that disputation which appears now to be 
 so much dreaded. There was not then heard dissentinn 
 between neighbors, or strife between societies ; everything 
 went on peaceably, and why ? Because the schools and 
 the citizens were not then charged that religion was a for- 
 bidden subject. Nor should you n6w make it a forbidden 
 part of education, because on religious principle alone can 
 conscience find a resting-place. It should be made known 
 
 that here conscience is supreme — that here all men are free 
 
 to choose the views which their judgments, with a sense of 
 Iheir responsibility to an eternal weal or woe, shall orlier for 
 their adoption. It should be taught that here neighbors hav~ 
 the right to differ, and whatever is the right of one must be re- 
 cognized as the right of the other ; and the distribution of 
 this fund will be better calculated to benefit the commu- 
 nity than it can be by these Public Schools where every 
 thing seems to be at par except religion, and that is below 
 par at an immense discount. They tell us then that — 
 
 " The law was imperative in its character, and the several Reli- 
 gious Societies of the city possessed a legal right to draw their re- 
 spective portions of the Fund from the public treasury, subject only 
 to the restriction, that the money so received should be appropriated 
 to the purposes of free and common education." 
 
 But that "right to draw" has been taken away ; yet there 
 13 nothing in the act by which the right to draw is taken 
 away which forbids their receiving it still, if in the judgment 
 of this honorable body the circumstances of the case entitle 
 them to it. It is not an impeachment — the legislature had 
 no intention to reflect on religious bodies — it had no in- 
 tention to black-ball religion in the public schools ; and yet 
 that view has been taken of it Such was not the case ; but 
 because circumstances had arisen; and what were they? 
 Why gross abuses had been practiced by one of the reli- 
 gious Societies, and — 
 
 " The funds received by the Church were applied to other pur- 
 poses than those contemplated by the act." 
 
 Under some pretext the favor to expend the school monies 
 had been conferred on that society in a way that distin- 
 guished it from all other Christian denominations and so- 
 cieties ; and the other seeing this privilege conferred on 
 one and not on the rest, ventured to remonstrate with the 
 legislature ; they intimated that the partiality to that Society 
 of Baptists was an injustice to others, and they remonstrat- 
 ed against the law conferring exclusive privileges and 
 against no other thing whatever. And yet by every docu- 
 ment, and by this very document, it seems to be imagined 
 that the legislature did not revoke special favors granted to 
 that Society, but withdrew its aid from all Christian 
 Churches ; so that all the men who remonstrated against 
 this partial legislation were found to have been themselves 
 deprived of the privilege which they had enjoyed, and this 
 on the strength of their own remonstrances for quite ano- 
 ther thing. And the discretion which the legislature had 
 exercised to designate the schools which should receive this 
 fund was transferred to this honorable body, the Council of 
 the citv of New- York. And why was it transferred? I 
 cannot speak positively, but while it seems to me that there 
 were abuses shown to exist by the remonstrants, of which 
 they made complaint, we may suppose the legislature con- 
 ceived it difficult for them to tike cognizance of the matter, 
 not being on the spot, but that the Common Council being 
 here, and being a body chosen by the people in which, con- 
 sequently the public would have confidence, was the best 
 and most fitting body to designate from time to time the 
 institutions . or schools which should be entitled to receive 
 those school monies. This must have been their intention, 
 and yet this has been interpreted »s repealing the law in or- 
 der to deprive those denominations of a legal right (for 
 right they had, and they could come and demand the mo- 
 ney) and not a mere transfer of the discretion to give this 
 money from the legislature, to the Common Council of New- 
 York. Now all this, which is so plain and simple has been 
 construed by these gentlemen of the Public School Society 
 as what? As conferring a monopoly upon them. As a 
 law disqualifying all religious denominations receiving 
 it. So it has been interpreted. But if it were so, we ask 
 not for the money on the ground that we aro a religious 
 
14 
 
 corporation, but of public utility, for the purpose of giv- 
 ing an education to a large and destitute class which 
 otherwise will not have the meaus to procure it. We 
 ask it to secure a public advantage, and if the objec- 
 tions a ny where exist to which I have directed your atten- 
 tion, they do not apply to our case. Gentlemen, I think it 
 unnecessary to detain you any longer on this subject as re- 
 ferred to in this document, because while the question is 
 composed of one simple fact, they are arguing against dan- 
 gers which do not threaten them. But then they go on to 
 say, 
 
 " To prevent in our day and country, the recurrence of scenes so 
 abhorrent to every principle of justice, humanity, and right, the Con- 
 stitution of the Lnited States, and of the several Slates, have declar- 
 ed in some form or oilier, that there should be no establishment of 
 religion by law ; ihat thoarTiirs of the Stat! should be kept entirely 
 distinct fro.n, and uncounected with those of the Church; that every 
 'human being should worship God, according to the dictates of his 
 own consc ence ; that all churches and religions should be supported 
 by voluntary con;rihution ; and that no tax should ever he imposed 
 for the benefit of any denomination of religion, for any cause, or un- 
 der any pretence whttevcr." 
 
 All this is doctrine to which we subscribe most heartily. 
 And ivhile we seek to be relieved from the evils under 
 which we suffer, we do not seek relief to the detriment of 
 any other sect. What .' is this country independent of re- 
 ligion? Is it a country of Atheism, ur of an Established 
 Religion ? Neither the one nor the other ; but a country 
 which makes no law for religion, but places the right of 
 conscience above all other autuority — granting equality to 
 all, protection to all, preference to none. And while all 
 these documents have gone on the presumption of prefer- 
 ence, all we want is that we may be entitled to protection 
 and not preference. W r e want that the public money shall 
 not be employed to sap religion in the minds of our chil- 
 dren — that they may have the advantages of education with- 
 out the intermixture of religious views with their common 
 knowledge which goes to destroy that which we believe to 
 be the true religion. Their is another feature connected 
 with this subject — which- is the definition given of a public 
 school such as should be entitled to this money. " If the 
 school money" say these gentlemen — and I must believe 
 they are imposed on by a statement which is not correct. 
 I believe if they had known the true statement, they would 
 not have published in their report such a statement as this: 
 
 " If the School money should be divided among the religious deno- 
 minations generally, us some have proposed, there w.ll be nothing 
 left for the support of schools of a purely civil character; and if there 
 shou Id be, in such a state of things, any citizen who could not, ac- 
 cording to his opinions of right and wronsr, conscientiously send his 
 child to the school of an existing sect, there would be no public 
 school in which he could be educated. This might, and probably 
 would be the case with hundreds of our citizens." 
 
 Now let me for a moment invito your attention to that 
 part of the subject which I have now the honor to submit to 
 you; and it is that part on which all these documents go, 
 that religious teaching would vitiate all claim to a participa- 
 tion in this public fund. A common education then, as 
 understood by the State, is a secular education, and these 
 documents contend that any religious teaching, no matter 
 how slight, will vitiate all claim to a participation in this 
 fund. Now the Public School Society in their reports, have 
 from time to time stated themselves, and, observe, with a 
 consciousness that the jealous eye of the community is upon 
 them — they state, still under this restriction, that they have 
 imparted religion. Now if this doctrine be correct, they are 
 no more entitled to the Common School Fund than others ? 
 
 for a portion of this money, the State contemplates to give 
 
 the scholar — that is, an education without religion Now if 
 the child be brought up witluut religion what is he, if not an 
 infidel? "Oh'' they say, ' ; we do not teach it." Is it neces- 
 sary to teach infidelity? It does not require the active pro- 
 cess. To make an infidel what is it necessary to do? Cage 
 him up in a room, give him a secular education from the age 
 of live years to twenty-one, and I ask you what he will come 
 out, if not an infidel I Whether he will know any thing about 
 God? And yet they tell you that religious teaching is a dis- 
 qualification. What will achild be then if you give him their 
 education from his youth up to the age of twenty-one? W ill 
 he know anything of God, and of a Divine Redeemer? of a 
 Trinity, of the incarnation of the Saviour, and the redemp 
 tion of the world by the atonement of Christ, or of any of 
 those grand doctrines which are the basis and corner stone of 
 our Christianity? And because we object to a system of 
 teaching which leads to practical infidelity, we are accused 
 of charging the Public School Society with being infidels. 
 They furnish the basis of the charge ; we do not wish to do 
 so. Now I ask you whether it was the intention of the Le- 
 gislature of New York, or of the people of the State, that the 
 public schools should be made precisely such as the infidels 
 want? Permit me to say when I use the term infidel, I 
 mean no disrespect to those that are so. I would not be 
 one ; but I respect their right to be what they please. A 
 tew days ago a gentleman who professes to be one of this 
 class, and who would not allow his children to be scholars 
 where religion is taught at all, said he could send them to 
 the public school, for there the education suited him. What 
 then is the consequence? That while the public education 
 of New York is guarded in such a manner, as to'suit the 
 infidel, the children become so. And is there any authori- 
 ty in this Board, or of a legislative body at Albany, or is 
 there any Board in the Union, with power by the constitu- 
 tion, to exclude religion or to engraft it? Neither the one 
 nor the other. The infidel says truly that there is no reli- 
 gion taught, and therefore he can send his children ; and I 
 should like to know why any member of a christian church 
 should be forced to do violence to his convictions and not 
 be permitted to enjoy equal advantages? If the infidel can 
 send his children to these schools because no religion is 
 taught there, and who therefore has to make no sacrifices of 
 conscience, why cannot the christian enjoy equal advan- 
 tages? They say their instruction is not sectarianism ; 
 but it is ; and of what kind ? The sectarianism of infideli- 
 ty in its every feature. 
 
 But because it is of a negative 
 kind, and they do not admit the doctrines of any particular 
 denomination — because they do not profess to teach reli- 
 gion, therefore it is suited for all! As a test therefore of 
 this principle, give this purely secular knowledge to a young 
 man, keep him from intercourse with the rest of the world, 
 give him nothing else, and what sort of a man would he be? 
 What would be the state of his mind ? A blank— a perfect 
 blank as to religious impressions. But I contend that it is 
 infidelity, and I hope the Public School gentlemen hear 
 what I say. But again, I do not charge it on their inten- 
 tion, and their assertion is purely gratuitous when they say 
 that such an accusation is made against them. Here is the 
 observation of the report on this subject: 
 
 If religious instruction is communicated, it is foreign to the in- 
 tentions of the school system, and should be instantly abandoned.— 
 Religious instruction is no part of a common school education. 
 Such then is the nature of that report which, I take leav e 
 Or is the doctrine correct, and yet one must abide by it and fo repeat, has been p/epared by the gentlemen who drew it 
 not another? Again, these gentlemen charge us with ac- up as a committee, under the impression fixed on their 
 cusingthem of teaching infidelity, when taking this tax they minds that Catholics want this money to promote their re- 
 give that education, which, they state to us when we apply ligion, and that if it were granted to us others would wan t 
 
15 
 
 it for their respective religions also; and on this assumption 
 they decided ; but against this false issue I protest, whether 
 set forth in this report or in the two remonstrances before 
 this Council — one from the Public School Society, and the 
 other from the Methodist Episcopal Church. It is not my 
 business to speak in relation to the Public School Society 
 at large. Of its history I have taken pains to make myself 
 sufficiently possessed to speak; and I rind that in its origin, 
 so far from disclaiming all connection with religion, so far 
 from conceiving religious teaching disadvantageous, it was 
 originally incorporated for the purpose of supplying the 
 wants of the destitute portion of the population, and their 
 petition for a charter set forth 
 
 " the benefits which would result to society from the education of 
 such children, by implanting in their minds the principles of reli- 
 gion and morality." 
 
 At this time every denomination taught its own and re- 
 ceived an equal portion of the fund from the public authori- 
 ties to aid them in their good work, so that their children 
 were provided for, and this society came to gather in the 
 neglected and the outcast — they came as gleaners, after the 
 reapers had gone through the field, and a most benevolent 
 purpose theirs was; and their object I repeat, when they 
 applied to the Legislature was set forth to be — (for they did 
 not conceal the advantages of a religious education) — to 
 produce benefits to society by the implanting in the minds 
 of such children the principles of religion and morality. — 
 There were children belonging to no denomination, and 
 this Society seeing the benefits which would result to socie- 
 ty from the education of such children by implanting in 
 their minds the principles of religion and morality, under- 
 took this benevolent work, and covered themselves and the 
 name of their Society with glory by that undertaking. But 
 it is strange that what then was so advantageous to the com- 
 munity — the implanting in the minds of children the prin- 
 ciples of religion and morality — should have ceased to be 
 so now ; and that they or their successors should seek to 
 make that very thing a disqualification, and to turn it 
 against all denominations of christians, and claim them- 
 selves to monopolise the fund and the teaching ou the prin- 
 ciple that no religion shall be imparted. Now has the Le- 
 gislature seen fit to alter the charter so as to make religious 
 teaching a disqualification of all other sects? 
 
 Was it for that purpose that this society, step by step, 
 obtained enlarged privileges, by which not only the ne- 
 glected children of the community, but those of others, 
 came under their care — that they obtained grants from 
 the public treasury and the exchequer of the city, to an 
 amount of many thousands ofdollars, until the society claims 
 to be the true and only society, though existing as a pri- 
 vate corporation, electing its own body, fixing a tax for 
 the privilege of membership, sometimes $10, at others 
 $20, $25, and 850, any of which sums is too much for a 
 poor man to pay ; and out of this organized body elect- 
 ing the trustees to*carry on the work. 
 
 I mention this, not to blame them, for they believe they 
 are doing good, but to show that even with men who are 
 honorable in cvery-day life, how much watchfulness and 
 vigilance, how much tact and talent, is used to grasp 
 more and more, till they absorb all, and completely de- 
 prive all others of any participation in the advantages of 
 controlling this fund. 
 
 It is not my intention, as it is not my peculiar province, 
 to enter into the legal part of the argument ; but I have 
 to regret that the gentleman who did intend to treat it, 
 and to whose depaitment it belonged, has been unfortu- 
 nately prevented by the bursting of a Bmall blood vessel. 
 
 But though my experience has not qualified me to enter 
 into legal matters, yet, as a citizen, I might have the right 
 to express my opinion on the monopoly which this so- 
 ciety claims ; and that opinion is contrary to the mono- 
 poly, and not only contrary to their monopoly, simply re- 
 garded as a monopoly, but because L believe that a mo- 
 nopoly of this description should be regarded with 
 double jealousy. Why 1 Because this monopoly is of 
 greater weight than in ordinary cases ; of great weight 
 pecuniarily — for last year the fund amounted to $1 15,000 
 — because the distribution of that money gives to them 
 a patronage which, considering the weakness of human 
 nature, is in danger of being used disadvantageously — 
 because it gives to them privileges of infinitely higher 
 importance than any that can be estimated by dollars and 
 
 cents — the privilege of stamping their peculiar character 
 on the minds of thousands and tens of thousands of our 
 children. They ought to be men, to discharge the trust 
 of such a monopoly, as pure as angels, and almost im- 
 bued with wisdom from above — such men they should 
 be, when they would venture to come and stand by the 
 mother's side, and say, in effect, " Give me the darling 
 which you have nourished at your breast — give it to 
 me, a stranger, and I will direct its mind. True, you 
 are its parent, but you are not fit to guide its youthful 
 progress, and to implant true principles in its mind ; 
 therefore, give it to me, and give me also the means 
 wherewith to instruct it." That is the position of that 
 society; and they ought to be almost more than men for 
 this — as doubtless theyare honorable men in their proper 
 places ; but of that we should have the most satisfactory 
 evidence, that we may be well assured that they are fit- 
 ted to discharge their duties. It is this consideration 
 that brought me here, as the first pastor of a body of peo- 
 ple, large and numerous as they are known to be ; but 
 poor as many of them are, and exposed to many hard 
 ships ; they have children with immortal souls, whose con- 
 dition is involved in this question, and if it is an im- 
 propriety in the clerical character, I would rather under- 
 go the reproach than neglect to advocate their rights, as 
 far as I have the power, with my feeble ability. 
 
 The catholics of the city of New York may be esti- 
 mated as one fifth of the population ; and when you take 
 account of the class of children usually attending the 
 public schools, and consider how many there are in this 
 city j^who are in affluent circumstances, which enable 
 them to give an education to their children, who do not 
 therefore participate in the teaching of the public 
 schools ; and when you consider the numbers not at- 
 tending any school at all, I say, of those people, who, 
 by their poverty, are the objects most usually'composing 
 the number that require the assistance of the common 
 school fund, catholics are one third, if not more. And 
 when 1 see this one third excluded — respecting, as I do, 
 their welfare in this life, as well as their welfare in a 
 brighter world — then it is that I come forward thus pub- 
 licly, and stand here to plead for them. I conceive we 
 have our rights in question, and therefore, most respect- 
 fully, I demand them from this honorable board. 
 
 1 am not surprised that there should be remonstrances 
 against our claim ; but I did hope, in an age as en- 
 lightened as this is, and among gentlemen of known 
 liberality of feeling, that their opposition would not have 
 been characterized as this has been. However, it is not 
 to mo a matter of surprise ; for I believe if some of 
 those gentlemen who consider themselves now as emi- 
 
16 
 
 nent Christians, had lived at the period when Lazarus 
 lay languishing at the gate of the rich man, petitioning 
 for the crumbs that fell from the table, they would have 
 6ent their remonstrance against his petition. 
 
 When the methodist episcopal church 6ent its peti- 
 tion for a portion of this fund, some eight years ago, 
 then it was not unconstitutional! Yet, did the catholics 
 send in their remonstrance against it] When their theo- 
 logical seminaries obtained, (and they still receive,) the 
 bounty of the state, did, or do, the catholics complain 1 
 Has there been a single instance of illiberality on the 
 part of catholics, or a want of disposition to grant right3 
 as universal as the nature of man may require ] And I 
 have been astonished only at this, that good men, with 
 good intentions, should prefer to cling to a system, and 
 lo the money raised for its support by the public libe- 
 rality — that they would sooner see tens of thousands of 
 poor children contending with ignorance, and the com- 
 panions of vice, than concede one iota of their monopoly, 
 in order that others may enjoy their rights. I say this, 
 because I am authorized to say it. 
 
 And what am I to infer, but, that they prefer the 
 means to the end. The end designed, is to convey 
 knowledge to the minds of our children ; the means is 
 the public fund ; and, by refusing to cause the slightest 
 variation in their system, they cling to the means, while 
 they leave thousands of children without the benefit 
 which the 6late intended to confer. They may pursue 
 that course, but the experience of the past should have 
 taught thern, that while they maintain their present cha- 
 racter, a large portion of their fellow citizens have not — 
 cannot have — confidence in them. 
 
 We have not had confidence in them for years past; 
 and that we have endeavored to supply an education to 
 our children ourselves, is sufficient proof that we shall 
 endeavor to supply it for years to come, rather than 
 suffer our children to be taught under a system which 
 makes them ashamed of the religion their fathers 
 profess. 
 
 But they have said, that, if a portion of this fund is 
 given to catholics, all other sects will want it. Then, 
 let them have it. But I do not see that that is proba- 
 ble ; and my reason is this : — they have sent in 
 remonstrances against the claim of the catholics, as you 
 will see by a reference to document, No. SO, all of which 
 go to prove, that they are satisfied with the present 
 public school system. And if they are satisfied, and 
 their children derive benefit from it, let them continue 
 lo frequent the schools as they do now. The schools 
 are no benefit to catholics now; we have no confidence 
 in them ; there is no harmony of feeling between them 
 and us ; we have no confidence that those civil and 
 religious rights that belong to us, will be enjoyed, while 
 the public school society retains its present monopoly. 
 We do not receive benefit fiom those schools; — do not, 
 then, take from catholics their portion of the fund, by 
 taxation, and hand it over to those who do not give them 
 an equivalent in return. Let those who can, receive 
 the advantages of these schools ; but as catholics cannot, 
 do not tie them to a system, which is intended for the 
 advantage of a class of society of which they form 
 one third, but from which system they can receive no 
 benefit. 
 
 There are many other topics connected with this sub- 
 ject, to which I might advert ; but I must apologize for t e 
 length of time that I have trespassed on your patience. 
 I feel, unaccustomed as I am to address such a body, 
 
 and hurried as was my preparation, that 1 have not been 
 
 able to present the subject before you in that clear and 
 lucid manner that would make it interesting ; but it was 
 not with that view that I claimed your attention in rela- 
 tion to it ; it was with far higher motives ; and 1 now, 
 with confidence, submit it to your judgment. 
 
 Theodore Sedgwick, Esq. (with whom was Mr. 
 Ketchum) as Counsel for the Public School Society, then 
 addressed (he Board and said : — 
 
 Mr. President. — I appear here, with my learned 
 friend and associate, Mr. hetchum, on behalf of the trus- 
 tees of the public school society; and 1 desire, in th'. j outset, 
 for those whom I represent, as well as for myself, to reci- 
 procate all that the reverend gentleman has said of the 
 motives of the parties for whom we respectively appear. 
 The trustees are animated by no feeling but a desire to 
 promote what they conceive will be for the true interests 
 and welfare of the city ; in which they areas deeply inte- 
 rested as any men can be. They have no other interest 
 than to maintain that which, in their judgment, is right 
 in itself and will be beneficial to the whole body. Im- 
 pelled by these motives themselves, they are willing to 
 believe that those who are opposed to them are animated 
 by the same feeling. It is most especially desirable 
 that, in a case like this, the petitioners should be heard, as 
 they are being heard, in the most solemn manner the 
 forms of the city government will permit. We have no 
 doubt they will be fairly heard ; we are convinced that 
 the decision to which you may come, whether for or 
 against them, will be righteously pronounced. The 
 trustees therefore are most anxious that the case should 
 be fully examined. What, sir, is the precise question 
 before us 1 The petition, if 1 understand it, asks your 
 honorable body for a civil ordinance — for an ordinance in 
 regard to the application of money. 1 shall therefore waive 
 all reply to that portion of the reverend gentleman's 
 opening remarks which relate to the trustees themselves 
 and the Methodist congregation. That part of his argu- 
 ment has nothing to do with the merits of the case ; how- 
 ever pointed and piquant it may have been, it has 
 nothing to do with the point which you have to decide. 
 The trustees here sink into nothing; the petitioners also 
 disappear from our view ; and the real question remains, 
 how is the intellectual condition of our children to be 
 best promoted ? On that question two great bodies are 
 at issue ; and it is especially consonant with our form of 
 government, that both should be faiily heard ; it is in con- 
 sonance with that principle of our government, which 
 bases it on harmony and compromise, with that respect 
 which is due even to the opinions of the minority. The 
 question is now being heard, as it only best can be heatd, 
 and all will rest content, no doubt, with the decision, 
 whatever that decision may be. 
 
 If I understand this application correctly, it is an ap- 
 plication to alter, to modify, or, at any rate, to affect the 
 common school system of this state ; not only of the city, 
 sir, for it has a more extensive bearing ; it is to affect the 
 whole system of the state of New York, and your ho- 
 norable body cannot come to a proper decision of this 
 matter unless you bring your minds to the consideration 
 of the origin of our system of education, its establish- 
 ment, development, and extent. This system, sir, 
 which you are this night called upon, in my humble 
 judgment, not merely to modify hut to overthrow, had its 
 foundation laid as far back as the year 1795. On the 9th 
 of April, 1795, an act was passed "Jor the encouragemen t 
 
17 
 
 of public schools," and it is well worth while to know 
 what was the opinion of the legislature which framed 
 this act, in regard to the kind of education to he com- 
 municated in the schools which were to receive its bounty. 
 That act appropriated $20,000 annually for the support 
 of those schools in the different counties of the state; in 
 which the children should be " instructed in the English 
 language, or be taught English grammar, arithmetic, 
 mathematics, and such other branches of knowledge as 
 are most useful and necessary to complete a good Eng- 
 lish education." 
 
 Such was the whole extent and aim of the system as it 
 was originally founded. It was to give a purely secular 
 education. This act was the germ of our present system ; 
 but the question was not fully understood, nor its im- 
 portance sufficiently appreciated ; there was not suffi- 
 cient genial heat in the body politic to develop it ; it 
 was not long acted under, and soon became obsolete. 
 
 In ISO I, another act was passed, u for the encourage- 
 ment of literature," by which four lotteries were estab- 
 lished to aid in the accomplishment of the object; a pure 
 object, deriving its support from a most impure source, 
 for the proceeds of these lotteries were to be applied to 
 the support of the common school in such way as the 
 legislature might direct. i 
 
 In 1805, the first step was taken to establish the system 
 on a firm permanent foundation, and then (2d April) the 
 proceeds of the first 500,000 acres of the public lands which 
 should be sold were setapart, to beinvestedasapermanent 
 fund for the support of common schools for the educa- 
 tion of the children of New York. This fund was after- 
 wards increased, during the years 180S, '10, and '11, by 
 the receipt of the surplus fees of the clerk of the supreme 
 court, by the proceeds of certain stock in the Merchants' 
 Bank in this city, and the sums then flowing from lot- 
 teries, lands, fees, and banks, were invested, from time 
 to time, by the comptroller for the same object. In 1811, 
 the fund was found to be of a considerable amount, and 
 commissioners were appointed to report to the legis- 
 lature, at the next session, how this fund could be best 
 appropriated, and also to prepare a system for the orga- 
 nization and establishment of common schools. They 
 accordingly reported, and, in IS 12, (10th June,) the first 
 general act was passed, which laid the foundation, broad 
 and deep, of the present system. 
 
 That act directed, in general terms, that, as soon as 
 the revenue from the school fund should amount to 
 $50,000, it should be appropriated among the different 
 counties of the state ; commissioners and inspectors 
 were to be elected by the towns, to expend the amount 
 awarded to them; and trustees of the school districts 
 were also chosen to carry out the scheme. 
 
 But in the first act a provision was inserted — and it is 
 important in regard to the whole common school system 
 to bear it in mind — that the towns and counties were 
 not compelled to contribute to the expense of education 
 at all. Such only as voluntarily accepted the system 
 and taxed themselves to a similar amount, were permitted 
 to receive any portion of the fund. But if they chose to 
 disregard the matter altogether, they were at liberty so 
 to do. The next year, this error — for so it seems the le- 
 gislature deemed it — was corrected. The town3 and 
 counties were compelled to adopt the system, and the 
 supervisors were directed to tax the towns to the amount 
 of the proportion allotted to them from the school fund. 
 They did then what they had not defore dared to do. — 
 They taxed the people directly for the purposes of edu- 
 
 cation. That act was passed in 1814. The system thus 
 established was, as your honors well know, incorporated 
 in the Revised Statutes, which, in 1S30, were made 
 the code of our state; and that beautiful fabric still re- 
 mains as it was then fashioned — so simple, and yet so 
 beautiful, I should be loath to see a hand laid upon it. 
 
 The functions of the original superintendent of com- 
 mon schools have been merged in the secretary of state, 
 but in other respects no alteration has been made. The 
 annual revenue of the fund is divided among the counties 
 who are compelled to raise by taxation, a sum equal to 
 their respective shares ; commissioners were elected, 
 and by them the money is appportioned among the 
 towns, and these, again, are subdivided into districts, and 
 trustees elected to take charge of the school houses, and 
 to have the immediate supervision of the schools. 
 
 These trustees, at stated periods, (once a year,) make 
 their report to the commissioners, the commissioners to 
 the county clerks, and they, to the superintendent, now 
 secretary of stale; and thus, is one harmonious system 
 established throughout the state. In the last report, of 
 1S40, it is stated, that but one town in the state has not 
 reported during the last year; at the establishment of 
 the system, there was great diversity of opinion on the 
 subject — there was great languor and indifference among 
 the people, and it was long before the towns generally 
 came to take an interest in it; it was long before the trus- 
 tees made regular reports of the matters under their 
 charge ; but, as the last report of the supeiintendent shows, 
 there has been a great progress of opinion ; every town, 
 except one, has made its report during the last year, 
 showing the condition of its schools. In the year 1795, 
 $20,000 were appropriated to the common school 
 system ; in 1845, it is calculated by the report of the Super- 
 intendent, that the capital ol the Common School t und will 
 amount to five millions of dollars. These facts alone, then, 
 show the certain progress made, not only in the means for 
 the accomplishment r,f the object of the system, but in the 
 minds and hearts of the people themselves. Five millions of 
 dollars then will be the capital, and two millions will be an- 
 nually expended for the education of the citizens of the 
 State of New York! — K',7 6 districts have reported, and 
 557,229 children are actually under instruction in these 
 schools! Now I suppose, having reference to Ihe magni- 
 tude of the State and to its population and resources, it 
 may most safely be affirmed there is no such system for the 
 education of the poorer classes of any country in the uni- 
 verse — no system of this grandeur, by which the people take 
 care that the people shall be educated — made competent to 
 discharge those duties, without which the form and fabric of 
 our government are a mockery. This is the general system 
 throughout the State. Now let us examine more particu- 
 larly those features which relate ti this city, with which at 
 this time we are more immediately concerned. In 1813, 
 the first act to which I have alluded, extended its provisions 
 t) this city; and it is somewhat remarkable that ti e Lrgis 
 lature then drew a line between the population of this city 
 and of the country, and required the city to levy a tax for 
 this object, before it required the country population to do 
 so. In 1S14, as I have already said, the system was applied 
 to the entire State, and all counties were required to raise 
 by taxation an amount equal to their portion of the fund. 
 By that act, certain schools were specified as ihe tecipicnts 
 of lhi> Common School Fund, and Fuch other incorporated 
 religious societies as then supported chaiity schools. In 
 1824, this act wa3 repealed, and the Common Council was 
 authorized, oace in three years, to designate the ir\stitutiocs 
 
18 
 
 and schools which should be entitled to receive the school 
 monies. Alter the passage of this act, a petition from a 
 great portion of the property owners of this city was pre- 
 sented to the Legislature, praying leave to raise by taxation 
 on this city and county, a further sum, besides that already 
 required of them, for the sume purpose of educating- the 
 destitute poor. I claim no peculiar merit for them in so 
 doing, but they are at least entitled to the credit, such as it 
 is, of comprehending their own interest They saw that 
 the education of the poor was essential to their own wel- 
 fare. Perhaps this is the only instance on record of citi- 
 zens soliciting the favor of being taxed. It was granted — 
 and the Corporation was then authorized to impose a spe- 
 cial tax on this city for the support of schools. And what 
 has since been the developement of this system in this city? 
 In the year 1833, $34,UU0 were received from the School 
 Fund — $34, 0U0, or an equal amount to that received, were 
 raised under the compulsory clause of the school system 
 acts, and $73,000 in addition were raised by thi3 volun- 
 tary taxation ; so that the annual revenue of the fund in 
 controversy, exceeds $140,000 — no trifling sum to be dis- 
 tributed by this municipal body. Now, if you please, what 
 is the tendency of this system ? its practical effect — its 
 mode of tuition — the nature of its instruction? In the first 
 place, there is no law on the subject. The reverend gentle- 
 man has said that if the prayer were granted, they would 
 conform to the provisions of the law — he was willing that 
 the body whiih he represents should apply the fund as the 
 law directs. But the law makes no provision in the mat- 
 ter. If the Koran was taught in a common school, the law 
 would nut interfere — the law would not shut the school ; it 
 must be got at in some other way. This, the very essence 
 of the matter, was left, and doubtless intentionally left to 
 the people of the State and to this honorable body: through- 
 out the State the people elect their officers for the manage- 
 ment of these schools ; here it is done through this body, 
 who are elected by the people. You then, who are the re- 
 presentatives of the people, decide to whom this fund shall 
 be distributed. Now at the outset the question may arise, 
 and a great portion of the remarks of the revereud gentle- 
 man compel a notice of it — whether the education of the 
 people is a proper subject of governmental concern. If I 
 understand the argument of the reverend gentlemau, it 
 tends to the negative of this proposition. W hen he says 
 the trustees of our public schools "lake the children from 
 their mother, deprive the parents of their offspring" I un- 
 derstand him to say — and it is not the first time by any 
 means that this question has been mooted — that the State has 
 no right to interfere— that the matter should be left to the pa- 
 rent — that the State should not interpose between the father 
 and his child. If that argument is sound, then the whole 
 system should be abolished— if the State ought not to inter- 
 fere at all, taxation for this object must be done awav with, 
 and no further sums should be levied, and the school fund, 
 guaranteed by the constitution, should go back into the ge- 
 neral coffers. But, right or wrong, such is not the under- 
 standing of the people of this State. They have said that 
 there is a portion of every population that does not suffi- 
 ciently appreciate the advantages of education, voluntarily 
 to secure them ; they know, or think that they know by ex- 
 perience, that such parents, unless compelled, will not pro- 
 perly attend to the interests of the child, and therefore the 
 people of the State say, "we will interfere — no man shall 
 come up to his majority and claim the right of voting with- 
 out that education, which shall prepare him, at !ea.-t in pait, 
 to exercise that right. He shall have at least a portion of 
 
 that instruction, without which he is a firebrand in the 
 
 midst of a magazine." This matter, therefore, no longer 
 admit* of argument. The question to be argued here is 
 not whether the lather and the mother are the beat judges of 
 the interests of the child in this point of view — if so, we are 
 cast on the sea of abstract discussion. We must assume 
 something: we must take something for granted. The 
 postulate in this case is, "the State requires its children to 
 have some kind of education." What kind then shall that 
 be? Is the present system the best, or shall we have some- 
 thing new, and repudiate that, which the experience of thirty 
 years ha3 sanctioned and approved? There are three kinds 
 of education which the State might give. There is the 
 purely secular education, such as the first act, to which I 
 have referred, contemplates; such as the master gives to an 
 apprentice. This secular education may be better or 
 worse, more or less extensive. The child may be taught 
 to read and write, and may be given what is called by the 
 State "a purely English education." There is another 
 kind of instruction the infant may be imbued with — those 
 fundamental principles of morals, about which there is nodis- 
 pute — at least not in this country, nor in any part of Chris- 
 tendom — about which the body which the reverend gentle- 
 man represents, and we Protestants all equally agree; as to 
 the moral code of Christianity there is no material differ- 
 ence of opinion among us. But, beyond that, there is still 
 another branch of instiuction which is properly called reli* 
 gious, and it is because those two phrases — " religious" and 
 "moral" — have been used occasionally without an accurate 
 apprehension of their signification, that the documents of 
 the trustees have been misconstrued. But when the term 
 " moral" education is used, it only means that education 
 which instructs the children in those fundamental tenets of 
 duty which are the basis of all religion; it does not mean 
 that sectarian or dogmatic teaching which constitutes what 
 is more properly termed a "religious'' education. The 
 common schools have meant from the brgir niug to teach 
 the children the great moral precepts — "Thou shalt not 
 steal — thou shalt not lie" — and others; but they have not in- 
 tended to teach either Episcopalianism, or Methodism, Ca- 
 tholicism, or Unitarianism, for from that controversial 
 leaning they have intended — and if I understand the system, 
 the Legislature intended — that the schools should keep aloof. 
 It never can be imparted without involving the parents 
 and the children in bittej disputes endless in their nature, 
 whose inevitable effect would be to exasperate the minds of 
 the parents towards each other, and be either useless, or po- 
 sitively injurious to the children. A religious education, 
 properly so called, no man can undervalue; if a moral 
 education is given, the other invaluable instruction must be 
 superadded ; but the State does net intend to give it. The 
 State intends to give a "secular" and moral, but not a reli- 
 gious education — the State does not intend to give a secta- 
 rian education, and that is precisely what, if I apprehend 
 correctly, the reverend gentleman does intend to give. — 
 Such as I have described is the character of the instiuction 
 in this State; and that of the city is in haimony with it. — 
 It is a system, I repeat, by which it is intended to confer a 
 secular and moral education. It has been thought that for 
 the purposes of moral teaching, the Bible contains that in 
 which all sects can agree; from which no sect can dissent. 
 Now what is the praver of the petitioners? I suppose it is 
 haidlv necessary in this age and in this country, to deny 
 any feeling of hostility to Catholics. If there is one feeling 
 that has spread more than another throughout this country, 
 it is one of religious toleration — it is that this country was 
 
19 
 
 designed and was provided as an asylum for the oppressed 
 oi' other countries. It has been so most foitunately tor the 
 Catholics of Ireland, and the poor peasant oi the Rhine. — 
 There is no feeling of hostility to the Catholic as such; ttill 
 less to the foreigner as such. There was a time when Ca- 
 tholicism and Christianity went hand in hand, when their 
 fellowship was broken by*no jar nor schism; when all were 
 Catholics. One of the best men who has ever adorned this 
 country, was Bishop Cheverus, of Boston, one of the few 
 who achieved a wide spread reputation by mere acts of pri- 
 vate benevolence. And while we can turn to such men as 
 adorning the Catholic Church, it cannot be that there is any 
 hostility to them, as a sect; if there be, most assuredly I am 
 not its mouthpiece; and while I repudiate all feeling of hos- 
 tility to the petitioners, this I will further say, I would not 
 for a moment lend my feeble aid to the public school sys- 
 tem, if it were actuated or marked by intolerance or hostili- 
 ty to Catholics, if it did not maintain a perfect impartiality 
 among all sects. I conceive that this is not a subject to 
 argue as counsel, from a brief : unloss I were satisfied 
 that the compliance with this petition would be dangerous 
 to the whole system, as a lawyer, I would not say a syllable 
 in the matter — I would never on such a subject argue 
 against my deliberate couviction as a counsel for hire. — 
 The professional man must here be merged in the citizen, 
 and it is only as such that I desire to be heard. 
 
 If this matter, however, is properly considered, there can 
 be no pretence for making it hinge on Catholicism or for 
 awakening the violence of religious schisms ; although a 
 portion of the Catholics, at this moment, are the most pro- 
 minent petitioners of the most numerous body which de- 
 mand a change of the system, yet in point of fact they are 
 not more affected by it than others. The other denomina- 
 tions say, "We are satisfied with the present order of 
 things and with the education conferred, but if you give a 
 portion of these funds to one sect to be administered by their 
 hands, wc shall claim our share also." So long as you give 
 a secular education combined with moral instruction 
 alone, and steer entirely clear of all doctrinal or sectarian 
 principles all are satisfied, but the moment an apprehension 
 exi.».ts that a part of this great fund goes to increase the 
 numbers and the power of one particular sect, that moment 
 the others will eagerly strive to check what they believe a 
 pernicious influence, and to check it in the same wav. 
 At present these sects tacitly consent to the system pursued 
 by the trustees, because the Common School is now lite- 
 rally a " Common School," a neutral institution ; but give 
 a portion of this fund to promote the interests of that sect 
 and others will that instant press in demanding their equal 
 share. Those demands you will not be able to resist. I 
 am not speaking of any speculative matter; you have, Sir, 
 petitions couched in these very terms, and if you answer 
 the Catholic in the affirmative, you cannot give a negative 
 to the other claimants. Consider then for a moment the 
 effect of this. After all the sects have divided the fund 
 among themselves what is to become of the children of that 
 large class who are of no sect, or at least who wish no sec- 
 tar ian education to be given s Are they to be left utterly 
 destitute? The conclusion is irresistible, that this is a di- 
 rect attempt to subvert the whole Common School system. 
 The grounds taken by the petitioners are tw o-fold. If I un- 
 derstand them correctly, they are totally at variance and 
 incompatible with each other. One is, that the dogmas of 
 religion, or relig ion pioperly so called, is net taught in 
 these schools, but that what the reverend gentleman calls the 
 sectarianism of infidelity is propagated in them. Another 
 objection to the system is, that the children are made Pro- 
 
 testants : in other words, that religion is taught to them. I 
 leave it to the reverend gentleman to reconcile these propo- 
 sitions for the purposes of his argument — for the purposes 
 of mine it is sufficient that neither of them is tenable. 
 One is false in point of reasoning, and the other in point 
 of fact. 
 
 And now we approach the citadel, the centre of the dis- 
 cussion. Now as to this matter the petitioners ask your 
 honors to pass a civil ordinance; the first question that 
 suggests itself is, have your honors Ihe power to make the 
 appropriation asked for t The Committee of the Board of 
 Assistants have already intimated their opinion that no such 
 power rests here ; that this application, if made at all, should 
 be presented *.o the legislature : and the Board oi' Assi stants 
 have intimated the further opinion that the legislature has al- 
 ready passed upon this very question. That the Board of As- 
 sistants are right there is, I venture to affirm, no doubt. The 
 act of 1813,by which the legislature undertook to direct how 
 the School Fund should be applied in this city, apportioned 
 it among the trustees of the Free School Society, now the 
 Public School Society, the Orphan Asylum Society, the 
 Economical School, the African Free School, and such in- 
 corporated religious Societies as now support or thcreal'ter 
 shall establish Charity Schools or may apply for the same. 
 That act, beyond any question, gave this body power to 
 make the appropriation now asked for. The churches 
 acted under it and claimed their share of the School Fund. 
 On the 8th of February, lh22, an act was passed for the re- 
 lief of the Bethel Baptist Chuich of the city of New-York. 
 That congregation went begging to Albany, as other con- 
 gregations will go if this wretched system shall be intro- 
 duced, and asked leave to apply that part of their share 
 which was not wanted for teachers to the erection of school- 
 houses. The act was passed and its natural consequences 
 ensued. The teachers were underpaid and false receipts 
 were used in order to facilitate and conceal the increase of 
 the property of the corporation. Here a gross fraud was 
 perpetrated — that fraud was discovered, and it led to a 
 change in the system. The Nineteenth Annual Report of 
 the School Society contains all the documents and proofs 
 on the subject. It is sufficient for our present purpose tha 
 the fact of the deception was proved to the satisfaction of 
 the Common Council of the city, and of the legisla- 
 ture. The Common Council took the matter up and ad- 
 dressed a memorial signed by Mr. Paulding, then Mayor, 
 to the legislature, for the repeal of the act under which the 
 fund was appropriated to religious societies in the city. 
 They say — 
 
 "The question for the determination of the Legislatute, at this 
 time, is presumed to be, whether the Free School Society shall be 
 suff.rcd to continue its operations and have the principal manage- 
 ment of gratuitous education in the city of New-York, or whether 
 the religious societies shall take it out of its hands, and the poor be 
 educated in sectarian schools. 
 
 " If religious societies are to he the only participators of the por- 
 tion of the'school fund lor the city of NewrTi oik, a spirit, of rivalry 
 will, it is thought, be excited between different sects, which will go 
 to disturb the harmony of society and which will early infuse strong 
 prejudices in the minds of Children taujrht in the different schools. 
 Moreover your memorialists would suggest to your honorable body 
 whether the school fund of ihe State is not purely of a civil character 
 designed for a civil purpose ; and whether, therefore, the enh listing 
 of it to religious or ecch siast cal bodies is not a violation of an ele- 
 mentary principle in the politics of the Stale and country." — \0th 
 Rep. of Free School Sccielii. 
 
 Upon that memorial a Committee of the Assembly re- 
 poitcd a Bill to repeal the Act in question. That Report 
 contains the following passage : 
 
 '• There is, however, one ffeneial principle connected with this- 
 subject, of no ordimiy magnitude, to which the Committee would 
 beg leave to call ihe attention of tl.e house. 
 
20 
 
 " It appears tint the city of New- York is the only part of the State 
 where the School Fund is at all subject lo the control of religious 
 societies. This fund is considered by your Committee purely of a 
 evil character, and therefore it never ought, in their opinio. 1, lo puss 
 into the hands of ;iny corporation or set if men, who are not directly 
 amenable to the constituted civil authorities of the government, and 
 bound to report their proceedings to the public. Your Committee 
 forbear in this place lo enter fully into this branch of the eubj.-ci, but 
 they respectfully submit whether it is not a violation of a fundamen- 
 tal principle of our legislation, lo allow funds of the Slate, raised by 
 a tax on the citizens, designed for civil purposes, to be subject to lire 
 control of any religious corporation.' — lyi/i .Annual Jiep. oj Free 
 School Society, p. 51. 
 
 Upon that memorial and report, both holding this lan- 
 guage, the act was passed under which your honors are now 
 called upon to grant the claim of the petitioners on whose 
 behalf the reverend gentleman has just addressed you. On 
 the 19th of November, 1824, this law was enacted, entitled 
 "An act relating to Common Schools in the City of New- 
 York," by which it is provided that — 
 
 " The Institutions or Schools which shall be entitled to receive the 
 uchool monies, shall, from time to time, and at least once in three 
 years, be designated by the Corporation of this city in Common 
 Council convened." 
 
 Now I ask your honor, since statutes were first formed 
 was ever a Church designated in legal language as an "insti- 
 tution" or a "School?" That act then, coupled with that 
 memorial and report on which it was based, compels the 
 conviction that it was the intention of the legislature — if 
 my mind is not clouded by the views I have taken on the 
 subject it is as clear as the sun at noon-day that the legis- 
 lature intended, that this fund should be divided amongst 
 " Institutions and Schools," and to be appropriated to the 
 purposes of education — of civil, secular education, not of 
 religious sectarian instruction. We are now then after 
 the lapse of only fifteen years, arguing before this honor- 
 able body the very question which was argued and decided 
 against these petitioners, and that not abstruse or compli- 
 cated, but one of the simplest 'in the very primer book of 
 liberty. The only question which cau by possibility be 
 raised on this branch of the case is the change in the phrase- 
 ology adopted in the Revised Statutes, vol. i. p. 483, (2d. 
 ed.) where instead of the words "Institutions or Schools," 
 the words " Societies or Schools" are substituted. That 
 certainly is not the language of the act of 1824 — it is not 
 as clear language as that used in the original act, but it is 
 very apparent that the revisers changed the language with- 
 out intending to chancing the purport of the provision. 
 Your honors are well aware that where any change of our 
 Statute Law was considered necessary by the revisors, where 
 an old enactment was altered or a new provision was in- 
 troduced, it is uniformly accompanied by a note to show 
 the reason for the alteration. Rut there is no note nor 
 comment whatever on this passage. Your honors are 
 equally well aware that the revisers did for the simplification, 
 and as they no doubt considered the improvement, of the 
 law, sometimes change the phraseology of our Statutes, to 
 make it more elegant or precise; that is the reason why 
 they here have substituted the word "Societies" for "In.'ti- 
 tutions." It is not to be supposed that they could delibe- 
 rately revert to the exploded enactment, which existed prior 
 to 1S24, without note or comment, explanation or reason, 
 to show why they had re-established a system once pro- 
 nounced pernicious. As a matter of law, therefore, I af- 
 firm without hesitation this question has been passed upon 
 by the legislature, and that the sovereign power has removed 
 from this honorable body the right or authority to apportion 
 this fund among religious societies. If we are right in this 
 part of the discussion we might stop here. If this ground 
 is well taken the petition must unquestionably be rejected. 
 Your honors caunot act for want of jurisdiction. But sup- 
 
 pose us to be wrong — put out of view the act of 1824, nnd 
 
 consider the question as it presents itself on general prin- 
 ciples, as if we were to argue it before a committee ol the 
 legislature. How have your honors acted on this subject 
 already? The present disposition of the School Fund is 
 among the Public School Society, the Mechanics' Society, 
 the Orphan Asylum, the Harkem School, the Manhattan- 
 villc School, the Yorkville School, the Catholic Benevolent 
 Society, the New-York Institution for the Blind, the Half 
 Orphan Asylum, the Association for the Benefit of Colored 
 Orphans in New-York. Of these the most prominent is 
 the Public School Society, the utility and benefits of which 
 it is impossible to extol too highly, but whose power the 
 reverend gentleman most egrcgiously exaggerated. >\ bal 
 arc its powers 1 In 1805 this Society was incorporated by 
 the legislature under the name of " The Society for Esta- 
 blishing a Free School in the City oj JVeto York, for the 
 Education oj such Poor Children as do not belong to or 
 are provided for by any Religious Society." In relation to 
 the original petition on which the chaiter was granted on 
 which the reverend gentleman has commented, it is suffi- 
 cient lo obsene, that at that time no school fund existed, 
 and the petitioners might ask leave to give religious educa 
 tion or any other species of education; whether wise or not, 
 that petition has no connection with the application of the 
 Common School Fund. In 1816 the power of that Society 
 was extended to all children who were proper objects of 
 giatuitous education, and the name was changed to " The 
 Free School Society of New-York." On the 8th of Janu- 
 ary, 1826, it was altered to "The Public School Society, 
 by which name it is still known. The yearly income of 
 this "magnificent incorporation" so "dangerous to the li- 
 beities of the people" is limited by its charter to $10,000 
 per annum. This Society has been called, by the reverend 
 gentleman, a "monopoly." I did not expect to receive to 
 night a lesson on the evils of monopolies. 
 
 That subject, we pretty thoroughly discussed some years 
 since, as you, Mr. President, no doubt well recollect. That 
 discussion was carried on here by one of the most upright 
 aud boldest spirits that ever inhabited a mortal frame. It 
 is foreign to this subject, but I shall never forego any op- 
 portunity of commemorating with mvfaint praise the name 
 of William Leggett. But this Society, sir, is net one of 
 those huge political engines which we were then taught to 
 dread — a Society incorporated under a general statute, the 
 privileges of which are open to all; the only object of which 
 is to supply education to the poor; the annual income of 
 which is limited to $10,000, is not, I need not assure your 
 honors, such a "dangerous monopoly" as should exclude it 
 from popular favor. It is just such a monopoly, just such 
 a monster, if the reverend gentleman likes the phrase better, 
 as any one of the churches which he represents. Some 
 better ground of objection must be found than that this in- 
 cotporation is a " monopoly." The argument of the re- 
 verend gentleman has certainly the merit of flexibility, but 
 it stretches too far : he sets cut with the proposition that this 
 Society inculcates sectarianism, 'cut when he found that 
 would be turned against him, he goes on the other tack and 
 charges them with infidelity. Not quite satisfied with either 
 of these, he starts the certainly novel accusation that it is a 
 monopoly, and finally he insist? that the Society has not the 
 confidence of the people. As to this matter, like most 
 others, facts speak louder than wcrds. A statement has 
 been recently prepared in relation to the children taught ia 
 these schools, which shows the nature of their efieet.s on the 
 population of this city. The report not only gives the num- 
 ber of the children taught, but the occupation of the parents 
 
3) 
 
 has been carefully set down, and a single glance at it will 
 show what class of society is most interested in the support 
 of this '-'dangerous monopoly." Of 16,000 children, no 
 less than 1,488, or about one-tenth, are the children of la- 
 borers; 1 40 1, or nearly another tenth, are the children of 
 widows; 945 shoemakers; 502 cabinet-makers; 416 .la- 
 sons; 579 tailors; 493 blacksmiths; while of clergymen 
 there are but 13; of doctors 44 ; lawyers 25; and the gen- 
 tlemen figure in the list to the amount of 26. This is the 
 proportion in which the children of the different classes en- 
 joy the benefits of education from the Public School So- 
 ciety. The reverend gentleman's assertion that the Society 
 has not the confidence of the public, is somewhat answered 
 by this statement. But if it were otherwise, should it be 
 thought strange, and would it be singu'ar if the same elo- 
 quent voice which we Have heard this night, is constantly 
 raised to deter one large and important class of the people 
 from entering those common schools, arousing the preju- 
 dices of the poorer part of our population as to the motives 
 of the Society and the character of its instruction ? But it 
 is not true. In point of fact they have the confidence of the 
 people to a most remarkable extent. 
 
 This institution has organized 98 schools ; expends an- 
 nually about $130,000, and is, as I have said, the principal 
 agent of the common school education in our city This 
 institution has in its instruction, most sedulously confined 
 itself to a secular and moral education, and most scrupu- 
 lously eschewed every thing of a sectarian tendency. It is 
 against this institution that these petitions are most espe- 
 cially aimed. 
 
 To come back to the other recipients of the school fund. 
 The Haarlaem, Hamilton, Manhattanville, and Yorkville 
 schools, as well as the African and Mechanics Society, are 
 I believe proper free schools, some of them devoted to par- 
 ticular classes of society, but all confining themselves to 
 secular moral education — steering clear of sectarianism in 
 every shape. The other institutions do in some shape or 
 other convey religious instruction, and as such are excep- 
 tions to the general rule. 
 
 A report was not long since (I think in 1833) made by 
 the Board of Assistants against the claims of these latter es- 
 tablishments, on the ground — the same we now urge — that 
 this fund is intended for the purposes of secular education, 
 and that those institutions, such as the Orphan Asylum, no 
 matter how excellent they may be — no matter how much 
 good they may effect, do not come within the pale of those 
 educational establishments to which it was intended that 
 this fund should be devoted. Unfortunately t :e views of the 
 report did not prevail. Your honors have already gone be- 
 yond the intention of the Legislature and the Constitution 
 — and have already erroneously granted aid to institutions 
 which do not strictly come within the original design of the 
 Common School System. But is this to be established as 
 a precedent? I think not. The grants to these institutions, 
 of small amount and little consequence, will hardly serve as 
 a pretext for breaking up the system altogether. The ap- 
 plication now before you is, that your honors will be pleas- 
 ed to designate, as among the schools entitled to participate 
 in the Common School Fund, St. Patrick's School, St 
 Peter's School, St. Mary's School, St. Joseph's School, St. 
 James' School, St. Nicholas' School, Transfiguration 
 Church School, and St. John's School. 
 
 Now, if your honors please, what is the ground of this pe- 
 tition? First, that the Catholics, who, as represented by the 
 reverend gentlemen, pay taxes equally with all other citi- 
 zens, cannot enjoy the benefits of the schools, because their 
 
 consciences will not permit them to send their children 
 there. I am by no means disposed to under-rate the force 
 of this objection : if I oppose this application it is with no 
 desire to achieve a paltry triumph over the petitioners or the 
 reverend gentleman himself. Our object is that which 
 actuates him — it is the wish that the children of the poor be 
 educated — to give them that which the petitioners say they 
 are striving to obtain. If there is anything in our system 
 which, rightly considered, prevents their enjoyment of its ad- 
 vantages, the system is in that respect wrong. If a large 
 body of our citizens cannot (in fact and for good reasons) 
 participate in the advantages of our public free education, 
 that education is on a wrong footing — is radically wrong. 
 But the question is after all, one of fact. Is the ground on 
 which they prevent their children from going to these 
 schools well taken ? What then is the reason which they 
 assign? As I have said, the objections resolve themselves 
 into two — and these two are totally incompatible and incon- 
 sistent with each other. One branch of the objection is 
 that the instruction is purely secular. This has been urged 
 not only in the argument of the reverend gentleman, but 
 the same view of the subject is presented in the documents 
 presented to this Board. It is there stated in various forms 
 that religion is excluded — that religion is not taught — that 
 the instruction is purely secular, and that the children grow 
 up infidels in consequence. That is alleged to be the ten- 
 dency of the schools. Such is the first objection. Now 
 what is the other, or the other head of this same objection. 
 That the Bible is used by the pupil "xoilhout note or com- 
 mr.nt" — that the schools are totally Protestant in their bear- 
 ing, and tend to undermine the Catholic faith. One of 
 these positions is, I suppose, with great respect, untenable — 
 a child cannot well grow up a Protestant and an Infidel at 
 the same time. On which does the gentleman rely for the 
 great responsibility he assumes in dissuading his parishion- 
 ers from availing themselves of these schools. The Bible 
 without " note or commentl" Is this the objection ? Whose 
 "notes" or "comments" I pray does he intend to introduce 
 into our common schools? Is it possible that the Bible 
 cannot in this day and generation be trusted in the hands 
 of our American children? If the whole Bible cannot be 
 used, cannot such extracts from it be compiled as will sa- 
 tisfy all parties? This has been the course actually adopted 
 by the trustees. They habitually use a volume composed 
 of selections from the Bible. Cannot these selections be 
 made so as to satisfy all sects ? The real tendency of the 
 reverend gentleman's reasoning in this matter, cannot be 
 appreciated without recollecting the difference between the 
 Catholic and Protestant Bible. I do not intend to draw 
 any parallel between the texts of the translation which we 
 use, and that of the Douay or the Catholic Bible. All our 
 early associations are so interwoven with our own version, 
 that it would be no easy matter to give the Catholic trans- 
 lation a fair and impartial judgment, as far as the richness, 
 beauty, and force of style is concerned; but on one point 
 surely we of the Protestant faith cannot claim any superi- 
 ority. In the moral teaching of the two versions there is 
 no consider" ble difference; in the doctrinal points there are 
 it is true, some important discrepancies. Where the word 
 repent is used in our edition, in the Catholic it is d ■» pe- 
 nance ; for the words daily bread, in the Catholic edition, 
 are substituted snpersubslaniial bread; but the great moral 
 precepts (I speak now of the teaching of our Saviour) are 
 the same. How can it be otherwise? We are all chris- 
 tians ; either Bible i3 the code of Christ ; but as the reve- 
 rend gentleman has said, it is the " notes and comments" 
 
HI 
 
 which distinguish the Catholic from the Protestant edition; might convince 'your honors how far they have gone to 
 
 it is to the edition without note or comment *hat the objec- meet what they considered the well-founded remonstrances 
 tion exists. This objectiou is a fundamental one in priu- of the Catholics. They have expurgated whole passages of 
 ciple. The Catholic Bible is filled with marginal notes text from some books, and in other instances have patted 
 which inculcate dogmas proving or seeking to prove doc- two leaves together so as to annihilate completely the objec- 
 trinal points — Transubstantiation, for instance; or the ne- tionable paisages until a new edition can be procured. — 
 cessity of the Fasts and Penance. Now for the purposes of This has been done too, notwithstanding the refusal of the 
 this argument, the truth of these doctrines is not of the Catholic authorities to give the least aid, and surely it is not 
 slightest impoitance. I do not care whether Protestant or fair when this has been done to insist that these gentlemen 
 Catholic be right. The question is not one of sectarian were blameable for not discovering these passages sooner, 
 dogmas, but of education. The difference is not as to the I repeat, it is not common fairness. 
 
 justice or correctness of the "notes and comments," but as They have offered to make the books unobjectionable to 
 to the propriety of using any — whether our children shall be Catholics — they have asked the gentlemen who now com- 
 taught to love their neighbors, and not to lie, and not to plain, to lay their fingers on those passages which are ob- 
 steal, or whether their young minds shall be occupied with jectionable, and they have promised that they should be 
 the pros and cons of Transubstantiation, Penance, and struck out. But all co-operation and assistance has been 
 Fasts. Mankind has never disagreed as to the propriety of refused. There is one other branch of the question, as re- 
 robbinc, or cheating, or bearing false witness, but about gards the conduct of the School Society of no little import- 
 these dogmas, these doctrines, the race has been cutting ance. The schools during the week are under the control 
 each others throats for the last ten centuries. For the last of the School Society, but on Sundays they have been used 
 four centuries these doctrines have dyed Europe with blood, as Sunday Schools by such religious societies as would 
 It is these recollections — these reminiscences which hav e pay for the fuel and take charge of the building. This pri- 
 dictated our legislation on this subject. It is these prodi- vilege has been tendered to the Catholics. They have been 
 gious evils that American statesmen have striven to avoid, told, "If you will avail yourselves during the week-days of 
 This is the evil which the trustees believe they see in the the Public Schools you may have the use of the buildings 
 application now made, and in behalf of both Catholics and on Sundays to give such religious education as you see fit, 
 Protestants, they implore you to reject this petition. They and you may use the Douay Bible or the Missal." No- 
 have confined themselves in the instruction given in these thing surely can be fairer or more impartial than to place 
 schools to that which they believe is in conformity with the all the sects on an equality during the week, and on Sun- 
 intentions of the State — a secular education — reading and days to use them as they choose for religious purposes, 
 writing, and the rules of arithmetic, with such instruction There is but one other branch of the reverend gentleman's 
 on the precepts of the Bible as they did suppose all persons remarks to which it will be nesessary to refer; that is, as 
 calling themselves Christians could agree in. If this is to the character of the schools, for which a share of the fund 
 wrong, the trustees are wrong altogether, and something is now demanded. The reverend gentleman insists that 
 else must be substituted. If a moral education is not of they will not be sectarian schools; but this must be so; 
 itself sufficient, if it is not the only proper education for our they can be nothing else from the nature of the case. The 
 free schools, something else must be substituted. The re- schools are attached to their Churches, they are within the 
 ligious, the doctrinal, the sectarian education they have sound of the chaunt, almost within reach of the altar ; and 
 hitherto left to the fireside, to the parents, to the Sunday if sectarian schools are not to be established what is the 
 school. They do not pretend to give it; they do not pre- object of their establishment at all? If the objection to the 
 tend by the use of the Bible to teach more than that moral existing schools is that they convey no religious instruction, 
 code which every class of Christians, whether Catholic or and these schools are intended to obviate such objections, 
 Protestant, they conceived would unite to give. In these what kind of education, I beg, will be given? What, to be 
 matters it is worth while to look at the experience of other sure, but the teaching of the Catholic faith. The very 
 countries. The same controversy that has arisen here, has ground — the whole foundation of their petition is that 
 arisen also in Ireland ; but there — in a country torn by re- the schools ought to convey religious education; and 
 ligious schisms — and I state a fact well known to the reve- do they not in the schools which they mean to establish in- 
 rend gentleman, both Protestants and Catholics have united tend to convey religious instruction, and you need not be 
 in a selection of extracts to be used, some from our ver- told by me that it will be a Catholic education, a purely 
 sion, some from the Douay Bible. I do not say that this Catholic — a sectarian education. If you, gentlemen, are 
 could be adopted here, but I do say there is some neutral prepared to lend your funds and your authority to such a 
 ground on which both paities can meet. I do not pretend scheme, you have only to say the word. The trustees of 
 that the scheme of the trustees is wholly unexceptionable, the Public Schools, and the gentlemen who compose the 
 but I do say that vastly greater defects must be discovered Public School Society hope the result of this application 
 in it than have yet been pointed out, to justify its abandon- will be such as will bring the children into the schools, 
 ment — and that with all its imperfections on its head, it is Their object is, that the children shall be educated. If 
 a thousand told better than what is now proposed as its sub- there is anything in the objection made as to the character 
 stitute. As to the other branch of this double-headed objec- of the schools or the lessons taught therein, let a committee 
 tion, that the books used in the schools are hostile to Ca- be appointed by your honors from your own body to inves- 
 tholics, and promote the Protestant interest: if they are so tigate the subject. If any well-founded cause of complaint 
 they ought to be expurgated ; and if they cannot be satis- exists it will doubtless be removed. But until it is esta- 
 factorily expurgated, the books themselves ought to be aban- blished by belter proof than we have here, that these schools are 
 doncd and their places supplied by others. The trustees objectionable, and by better argument than we have this 
 have viewed this matter in the same light — they have done night heard, that the public funds should be devoted to feed 
 all in their power to remove the Catholic objection so far the fires of religious fanaticism, surely your honors will not 
 as it exists. I regret tjiat the books are not here that I abandon these long-established and excellent institutions. 
 
Hiram Ketchum, Esq., spoke as follows : meetings were held, we should have supposed that they were 
 
 Mr. Chairman, political meetings, and that possession of the Hall was taken 
 
 This is an application on the part of the Roman Catholic by either the " Whigs" or the " Democrats." It seems to me 
 Church, or of the Schools under the direction of the Roman not becoming — it seems to me that it is not treating the 
 Catholic Church, to be permitted to participate in the School question in a proper manner to make these popular appeals, 
 Fund. I desire to say this is not a controversy of Catholics and then to come here en masse to ask your honors to grant 
 with Methodists, or of the Catholics with the Society of the prayer of this petition, at the same time telling you that 
 Friends; the question here is, whether the petitioners can, the Catholics are one-fifth of our population. I care not how 
 upon principles of public policy, be permitted to participate in numerous they are. I know the Catholics, when joined by 
 the School Fund. I may say in advance, that I don't oppose others on a former day, had their petition rejected ; and I trust 
 the petition on behalf of the Public School Society because when they come here alone, attended by the populace which 
 the petitioners are Catholics. Within the last eighteen years they have excited, they will have no more nor any less con- 
 it has been my duty, on behalf of the School Society, to op- ceded to them than is right, on sound principles of public 
 pose many petitions for participation in this fund. Petitions policy. 
 
 have come from Episcopalian Schools ; and those Schools There are two principles or propositions about which 
 
 have been represented by a gentleman who is now one of the we shall not disagree. The first is, that the Legislature has 
 
 highest dignitaries in that Church in this State, and also by power to direct that a Public Fund shall be provided for the 
 
 able counsel. Petitions have come from the Dutch Reform- education of every child in the state. There is no contradict 
 
 ed Church, and they have been advocated with great ability, tion here of any sound principle. It is no violation of any 
 
 Petitions have come from the Methodist Church, and have sound public principle in the Legislature to enact, that 
 
 likewise been advocated with great ability; and from the out of the public money, raised by tax on all our citizens, 
 
 Baptist Church, and they have been advocated with equal every child in the state may be permitted to receive the 
 
 ability ; and from the Roman Catholic Church time and rudiments of an education. There is one other principle 
 
 again ; and the prayers of these petitioners, when united as which is equally in accordance with the well established 
 
 when separate, have, upon what were deemed sound public public policy in this state, namely, that not one cent, 
 
 principles, been rejected by your predecessors. Now the raised by public taxation, can go to support a religious 
 
 petition comes from one society alone, and the question institution — can go in payment for an education purely 
 
 is, whether the same principle which excluded the Epis- religious in its character. Now let us inquire for a mo- 
 
 copalians, which excluded the Methodists, which excluded ment the reasons on which these propositions rest. Why is 
 
 the Dutch Reformed Church, which excluded the Baptists, it that the state can tax all the people for the education of 
 
 shall not now, as it has heretofore done, exclude the Roman our children? Because it is admitted that intelligence is 
 
 Catholics also. necessary to enable every citizen to discharge his duty 
 
 Mr. President, I regret that some things have been said on to the community — because our institutions rest upon the 
 
 behalf of these petitioners that have been said. I regret that intelligence and virtue of the people; therefore, it is right 
 
 an attempt should have been made here to enlist prejudices that the state should furnish that intelligence to every 
 
 against the Public School Society, because it is a corporation, member, and it is no answer for any man, who is called to 
 
 The Public Schools of this city are managed upon the same pay a tax for that legitimate purpose, to say, " I send my chil- 
 
 pnnciples on which the Common Schools throughout the dren to schools where I pay for their education — I do not 
 
 state are conducted ; and if the Public Schools are wrong, wish to avail myself of the Public Fund — my children are 
 
 the principles of the Common Schools throughout the whole educated at this or that classical school — I don't wish to 
 
 State are equally erroneous: and it seems to me that the participate, and therefore I won't pay the tax." Thi3 is an 
 
 question is, not whether the Public Schools are managed by answer that the state would not admit for a moment. And 
 
 a corporation or not, but whether, upon principles which have it might be that the state adopted some system of education 
 
 heretofore been discussed, there can be conceded to Catholics, which might not suit all; the Lancasterian, for instance, as 
 
 or any other religious denomination, that which is now sought, in this city. Now some may say, " I dislike the Lancasterian 
 
 If they be so fortunate as to prove that the Public Schools are system — I think it is calculated to impart a superficial edu- 
 
 on a wrong basis, still they have not gained their point — still cation — I dislike it — I have a deep rooted objection to that 
 
 they have not shown that Catholics, or any other religious de- system." But will the state permit him to say, I will with- 
 
 nomination are entitled to the Fund. I may be permitted hold my tax? I cannot pay my tax, because I have an 
 
 also to say, I regret that popular appeals have been made on objection to the system which prevents my children partici- 
 
 this subject. I do not object to the Trustees of that Associa- paling in the Fund ; and therefore I ask the privilege of 
 
 tion coming here to petition; but when I read accounts of retaining my portion of the tax? Would the state listen 
 
 popular appeals being made by a high dignitary of that to such a plea? What then is the conclusion ? Why, the 
 
 church to the people, to enlist the popular prejudice on this state, having the right to educate the children, and having 
 
 subject, I may be permitted to say, that, at least, the course the right to tax the people for that purpose, must necessa- 
 
 is a novel one. When I read accounts of the first pastor of rily adopt some general system — it must follow some gen- 
 
 that church, — when I read of a mitred gentleman, being eral rule, and whatever my scruples may be, whatever may 
 
 received by the people with " cheers," when I read that be the scruples of any other individual here, or throughout 
 
 he addressed them and was " cheered" on, as we are the community, and however oppressive it may be to me, or 
 
 accustomed to be in our public meetings, I must say there is to others, who cannot avail themselves of the system, they 
 
 something novel in the proceeding. The gentlemen com- must submit. The great end which the state has in view — 
 
 posing this body, I conceive are capable of reasoning on this to impart intelligence to every citizen — must be accom- 
 
 eubject, and it is hardly necessary that a mitred gentleman plished, and on some principle adopted and established by 
 
 should descend into the arena, and appeal to the popular pre- the state itself. Well, what is the next principle and reason ? 
 
 judice or passion, to influence the judgment of this Board. I We see that no tax can be laid for the support of reli- 
 
 arn sure sir, if I— and I speak it with all respect— if I, or any gion. Why ? Religion is the foundation of sound morals ; 
 
 other man, had been passing St. James's, at the times these that no man will deny ; we do not live in an age wh»n any 
 
/nan denies it. Sound morals are essential to the preserva- 
 tion of the community ; why, therefore, shall not the city be 
 taxed for that which is essential to her preservation ? Why 
 shall she not be taxed for laying the foundation on which sound 
 morals, and sound political institutions rest ? I will tell you 
 why. We are divided into different sects, and if we were 
 taxed for the support of religion, it would happen — it could 
 not be prevented — that a man w ould be taxed for the support 
 of a religion in which he did not believe — and which he re- 
 regarded as injurious. I should be taxed to support the Jew- 
 ish religion ; Dr. Brownlee would be taxed to support the 
 Catholic religion, and the Reverend gentleman who has ad- 
 dressed you here to night, would be taxed to support Dr. 
 Brownlee's religion. And would they pay the tax ? No ; 
 for it would be a violation of conscience; and you would 
 then see the time arrive, if an attempt were made to collect such 
 a tax, when men would march to thestakeas in years gone by. 
 Right or wrong, you would see many Protestants go to the 
 stake, before they would let a single dollar of their money 
 go to teach the Right Reverend Gentleman's religion. So, 
 on the other hand, you would see thousands of Catholics 
 suffer martyrdom before they would contribute to a fund 
 whereby they might, by chance, be contributing to the 
 teaching of heresy. This is the reason why we cannot 
 have a general tax for the support of religion. But again, 
 we believe that religion is essential to sound morals. 
 There is no gentleman here who will deny that the 
 Christian religion is the great conservative principle of the 
 community. And how is that best promoted and ad- 
 vanced 1 By being let alone ; by giving every denomina- 
 tion a fair chance ; by leaving religion to voluntary support. 
 It is best for religion itself that it should be let alone to 
 extend its own boundaries. Now, then, Mr. Chairman, 
 to me it is most manifest that this community is bound to 
 furnish the rudiments of a common education. The state 
 is bound to do this, and to do it by some public system — by 
 some ordinance, or by some law ; the state is bound to make 
 provision for furnishing this education. I do not say — 1 will 
 not pretend to say, that the state has a right to take the 
 children from the arms of their mothers. I do not mean to say 
 that the state has a right to force education on any body. 
 That is not the principle. But I mean to say that the state 
 ought to furnish a system which shall be open and accept- 
 able to all. It ought to furnish bread, and say come and 
 eat. I do not mean to inflict pains and penalties ; I should 
 think they would be hardly necessary. Let us go furth with 
 persuasion ; I am for using no force, but the force of strong 
 argument. Well, now sir, if it is the duty of the state to fur- 
 nish an education for the poor, and for all the children in the 
 community, or for all that will avail themselves of it, the state 
 must establish some system ; and there is a system establish- 
 ed in the City of New York, upon what we supposed to be 
 public principles — Common Schools in the common acc rota- 
 tion of that term. 
 
 Mr. Chairman, the idea that we are bound in our Common 
 Schools to teach religion is a perfectly novel idea to an 
 American mind. Who ever went to a Common School to be 
 taught religion? I am in the midst of Americans who have re- 
 ceived their education in the Common Schools of this country, 
 and I ask who ever went to a Common School to receive reli- 
 gious instruction ? I venture to say that the idea is perfectly 
 novel. But do we mean to say, that because no religion is 
 taught in these Schools, that they are irreligious? Far 
 otherwise. Now the Rev. Gent, has said — with all his pro- 
 fessions of kindness he has said that religion is below par in 
 the Public Schools ; at an immense discount. Now is it so ? 
 He argues ingeniously that if they are not taught the doc- 
 
 trines of some known sect, there is no religion. Why, 
 
 Sir, we have been taught sound morals in all our Schools ; 
 
 I do not know any school in which they have not been 
 taught ; I do not know a mechanics' shop where the young 
 American or Irishman goes to be instructed in the trade 
 of a cabinet maker or blacksmith, where he is not bound 
 to be of sound morals. This obligation prevails every where 
 — it is a thing which everybody acknowledges. We are 
 bound to teach it. " Thou shall not lie ; Thou shalt not 
 steal ; Thou shalt not bear false witness,' are precepts 
 which we teach in our Schools. Who ever heard to the 
 contrary ? And if we are bound to teach them, we are 
 at liberty to teach those general religious truths which 
 give them sanction. I should like to know where there 
 is a School in which the master is not at liberty to say ; 
 God's eye sees all you do ; and if you steal, or lie, the retri- 
 bution of eternal judgment will follow you. This is not 
 teaching religion. This is morality, and an invoking of the 
 common sanctions of that morality. Sir, it has been said of 
 these Schools that they do not teach this. Why, if the gen- 
 tlemen had visited the Schools, and I am afraid they have 
 not, they would have seen, if their eyes had been properly di- 
 rected, mottoes of this kind, "God sees and knows all our 
 thoughts, words, and actions. "God sees all we do; he hears 
 all we say ; he knows all we do. "Son reverence thy parent." 
 And yet, gentlemen, we don't teach religion ; we don't teach 
 purgatory ; we don't teach Baptism or no Baptism ; we don't 
 teach anything that is disputed among Christians. We have 
 no right to do so : but we have the right to declare moral 
 truths, and this community gives us that right — not the law, 
 but, as rny friend says, public sentiment. 
 
 And is there no common principle in which all agree ? Is 
 there not a principle to which all religious men refer ? And 
 have not we the right, thus far, to teach the sanctions of mo- 
 rality in these Schools ? And because we teach the princi- 
 ples which every body acknowledges, and no man disputes — 
 which give offence to nobody, and ought not, are we to be 
 told that these are religious Schools? Why in our Common 
 Schools we have all been taught the common truths of reli- 
 gion, and yet no one ever went there to receive religious edu- 
 cation. 
 
 Mr. Chairman, while in these common, established schools, 
 we give the rudiments of an ordinary education — while we 
 teach there to write and cipher, and read the newspaper, and 
 discharge the duties of citizens, while this is done, there is an- 
 other department in which religion is taught. We all know 
 it — we all feel it ; and while the legislature can go to any 
 extent to advance man in one department, that of common 
 elementary learning, there is another, which is left to reli- 
 gion, where the pastor takes the children, where the Christian 
 pare/it takes the children, where the benevolent Christian 
 takes the children to his Sunday School or elsewhere, and 
 brings them under the influence of religion. This department 
 is supplied by voluntary contribution, and not one dollar can 
 be paid by public tax. Now I do maintain, sir, that I speak of 
 a line so clear, so broad, that every man who hears me, who 
 has had the good fortune to receive an education in this coun- 
 try, will understand it ; a broad, clear, and distinct line between 
 secular and religious education. One is received under the in- 
 fluence of a religious teacher ; that religious teacher gets his 
 pay by the voluntary contribution of willing hearts ; he dares 
 not get it anywhere else ; he does not want to get it in any 
 other way. The other can draw on the state for any 
 amount that the people in their sovereign capacity may deter- 
 mine. 
 
 We thus undertake in these Public Schools to furnish this 
 secular education, embracing as it does, not solely and ex- 
 
clusively the common rudiments of learning, but also a 
 knowledge of good morals, and those common sanctions 
 of religion, which are acknowledged by every body. We 
 have established such a system, and the question is, whether 
 that system shall be destroyed and a new one established. 
 That is the question. This system is known and under- 
 stood ; it has spread its schools all over our city ; it is un- 
 der one government ; children removing from one W aid 
 to another find in each the same schools, are accommodated 
 with the same books, meet with, and are instructed under 
 the same uniform system. Now shall it be continued or 
 not? Mr. Chairman, if the prayer of this petition be grant- 
 ed it must be abandoned. I can show you this in a few 
 minutes. Does the reverend gentleman suppose that he 
 alone would be permitted to take this fund? Does he ima- 
 gine that the various Protestant denominations will stand 
 bv, and look on, and see him draw ten, twelve, or fourteen 
 dollars a child, for its education, and the making it — for it 
 would be so — that would be the result after all — not only a 
 fair scholar, but a good Catholic. Does he suppose he is 
 going to have that business to himself, and that other reve- 
 rend gentlemen are going to stand by, and build up no 
 schools ? It will not be as in former years, as the reverend 
 gentleman conjectures, lor then the bounty of the State 
 was small, then only two dollars a head, or something of 
 that sort, could be drawn, and the Lancasterian system was 
 not introduced; then there was no inducement offered to 
 the religious bodies; but with this large bounty the Presby- 
 te, ians, the Episcopalians, the Baptists, and our friends the 
 Methodists, who are it seems such naughty people, will have 
 their schools, and they will have them well filled too ; and not 
 only filled with the children of their own disciples, but they 
 will have an inducement to bring in others, because the more 
 they draw in, the more money they will draw, and the con- 
 sequence will be that the system of Public Schools will be 
 broken up. Now the consideration which I wish to bring 
 to vour mind is, whether the new system will be as good or 
 better than the old. It is the common sense way of acting 
 not to desert that which has done well, that which has 
 done good service, unless we see that we are going to 
 improve by the change. What is the charge brought 
 against this system of public school instruction ? What 
 is the charge ? What is the objection ? What is the 
 system established for 1 It is to furnish a good, common, 
 ordinary literary education — a good literary and scientific 
 education — to instruct our children in the rudiments of 
 literature and science. Now there is no charge — and I want 
 this body to look at this paper in reference to that — there is 
 no charge against the School Society that it has not performed 
 that duty — that it has not. given what it was bound to give 
 — the rudiments of a good literary education — that it has not 
 enabled the children to read, and write, and cipher, and fur- 
 nished them with the elements of geography, so as to fit them 
 to go forth and discharge their duties as intelligent citizens. 
 There is no charge against, the .Society that it has not performed 
 this. What then is it 1 Why it is this, that the Catholics, from 
 conscientious scruples, cannot come inand participate in the ad- 
 vantages of the system. Their consciences forbid ihem to 
 have their children educated in these schools. Now, Mr. 
 Chairman, there is no man, I apprehend, that can have a 
 higher respect for the rights of conscience, than he who now 
 addresses you ; but let us examine this matter, and with all 
 respect for those whose claim we now discuss, I fairly and 
 candidly ask, can a Roman Catholic have conscientious scru- 
 ples against my learning his son to read, to write, to cipher, 
 and the common elements of geography 1 Can it be 1 Is 
 
 it possible ? Take a fair intelligent Protestant, and is it pos- 
 sible that any Roman Catholic could object to that man in- 
 structing his children to read, write, and cipher ? Why no ; 
 you might just as well say he has conscientious scruples 
 against such a man learning his son " the art, trade, and 
 mystery" of cabinet making in a Protestant shop. You may 
 just as well say that he has conscientious scruples against 
 placing his son in the office of a Protestant lawyer to study 
 law. Why is it so in fact 1 Go into your fashionable 
 schools and I ask you if there are not there as many Catho- 
 lics, as of other sects 1 I think I have in my eye those, 
 among the petitioners themselves, who send their children to 
 Madame this or that, who is a Protestant ; and there are 
 many Protestants here, who send their children to the 
 Schools of Catholics ; and in doing this, they consider them- 
 selves as compromising nothing, for there is no religion taught 
 there. These considerations, which so press on the minds of 
 these conscientious petitioners for the hardship endured by the 
 parents who send their children to public schools now, are 
 not appreciated in their own case when they send their sons 
 to Columbia College, or to the Schools of Protestant Mrs. 
 Smith, or some other lady. Well now, Mr. Chairman, if 
 there be no conscientious scruples at all. against employing 
 Protestants to teach their children toread, and write, and cipher, 
 on what can their conscientious scruples rest 1 It has been 
 said, (but I will not read the passage, because the commonly 
 understood meaning of it has been disavowed,) that the chil- 
 dren that go to these schools do not reverence their parents, 
 and that they feel a contempt for ihem, as though a special 
 influence had been used by which they were led to do this. 
 Now, I supposed, until it was disclaimed so explicitly, that 
 this had an application to the gentlemen of the Society of 
 Friends. But the Reverend gentleman has disavowed it ; 
 and he ought to do so, for I can tell that gentleman, that the 
 Friends never perhaps in a single instance, sent or permitted 
 children of theirs to go to these schools. They educate their 
 own poor, and they ask the state for no participation. 
 They do not send their children there, and I venture to affirm 
 that, of the numerous children that go to those schools, 
 not one attends the public ordinano s of religon ac- 
 cording to the mode established by the Society of 
 Friends. And I will go farther, and say, of those who 
 are educated there, none are conveited to their faith. 
 Whatever may be intended here, or elsewhere, it may be 
 asserted, with perfect confidence, that those individuals 
 make no proselytes, and also it maybe said, that they have 
 kept their people from being teachers, fearing such accusa- 
 tions as are made against them by the Rev. Gentleman. 
 
 And, Mr. President, if it is alleged, and I understand it 
 now to be disclaimed, that the course of education begets 
 irreverence to parents, I can only say they who affirm it 
 speak of that which they do not understand. 
 
 If they had gone to these schoolsthey would have seen 
 what care is taken, what sound moral principles are incul- 
 cated, and they would then never have made this charge. 
 But it is now disclaimed, and it is not for that reason, then, 
 that they have conscientious scruples. But what else is 
 there ? It is affirmed that some of these books contain pas- 
 sages reflecting on Catholics. Now 1 submit to the can- 
 dour of the gentleman, and of every one that hears me; — 
 because the books, containing numerous extracts from nu- 
 merous authors, collected together for the use of these 
 schools, contain a few passages which I may conceive re- 
 flect on me or on my religion, or on my politics, is that a 
 good reason why I should have conscientious scruples and 
 objections against the entire system 1 Let us see where it 
 would lead. Here is the Catholic, in turning over perhaps 
 
96 
 
 a thousand pages, finds some fifty lines that reflect on his 
 
 religion. I venture to say the Calvinists, on turning over 
 those pages would find something reflecting on them. I 
 have not made the experiment, but I have no doubt that 
 would be the result. Then comes the High Churchman, 
 and if he does not find something there bearing on his pe- 
 culiarities, I am mistaken. Then there are the Methodists, 
 and if they do not find something there bearing on what 
 people call their fanaticism, it is extraordinary. Then 
 there is the Politician, and there may be something extract- 
 ed from Jefferson U3cd in these schools, and to this, a cer- 
 tain class of politicians may say ; I cannot have my children 
 taught Jeffersonianism. Well then there is my particular, 
 worthy friend, Daniel Webster, who may have contributed 
 something to the pages of these books, and a Democrat, 
 who takes up ihe books may say I cannot go Webster any 
 how; 1 must have that expurgated. Now if all men must 
 go on in this way, and conscientiously object to the system 
 because in the reading lessons they find some passages 
 against their religious or political opinions, the whole of 
 the books will be expunged. I do not mean to reflect 
 on the conscientious scruples of any man, but I ask if 
 we are not bound to take hold of this system in a fair and 
 candid manner. We must have a public system ; and it is 
 impossible to have a public system to which some man 
 may not have scruples and objections. Well, sir, but what 
 next? Why, the Bible. I believe a chapter from the 
 Bible, the Protestant translation, without note or comment, 
 is read in some of these schools at their opening every day. 
 Shall we give up this Bible, Mr. President? It would be 
 a very hard thing. I have no authority to say how far the 
 trustees can go, or will go, in a spirit of compromise, with 
 an earnest desire to get in these children ; but I am here to 
 say that it will be a great sacrifice to give up the Bible — 
 to give up that translated Bible, — containing, as we believe, 
 and as, I doubt not, a great part of Christendom believes, 
 not only a fair translation, but a vast fund of pure English. 
 It will be hard to give up that Bible, sir. It has furnished 
 consolation in life and hope in death, to many. The insti- 
 tutions of liberty and the altars of piety have sprung up in 
 the path of that translated Bible; and whereever that 
 translated Bible has gone popular institutions have risen. 
 All those glorious principles, which, here in this country 
 are so conspicuous, have come from that Bible: and 
 whereever that translated Bible has been kept from the" 
 hands of the laity there has been darkness and despotism. 
 
 We, sir, have a Declaration of Independence of which 
 we are proud, because it contains those great principles 
 of liberty which are found in the Bible. Yes, sir, there 
 lies beyond that Declaration of Independence, a book whose 
 principles are a Declaration of Independence to man ; and 
 whereever that book is read man finds out his rights and 
 is willing to assert them. 
 
 Mr. President, and gentlemen of the Board, it is in your 
 hands. It is at present in the hands of these Trustees, but 
 it is a very delicate trust. We are called upon to give up 
 that Bible. I arn not the man to say that it can be done, 
 and I believe if this is necessary to a compromise, we shall 
 have to say, " No Compromise." We cannot give up that 
 Bible from our own hands and the hands of the children 
 of this Republic. Mr. Chairman, we must go a little far- 
 ther. Suppose we did now give up the Bible, and make 
 a common selection from the two translations — the Catho- 
 lic and our own — suppose we made a common selection 
 about which we all agree ! Why, gentlemen, such a com- 
 promise was made across the water, — that compromise was 
 agreed to by a majority of the Irish Catholic Bishops, but 
 
 the minority appealed to the Pope. Now the gentleman 
 
 is mistaken if he supposes I am capable of appealing to 
 
 any prejudices improperly, but he has not denied this fact ; 
 and I expected it would have been denied or some how ex- 
 plained, how such an appeal was made from that country. 
 Sir, such an appeal might be made in this country ; and if 
 so, in all candour I ask whether it does not belong to a 
 foreign Potentate to say whether the Bible shall be read in 
 our Common Schools? I ask if they can escape from that 
 position ? I want an answer to that ques ion. And if 
 there be a foreign power, spiritual or otherwise, to say that 
 the Bible shall not be read, I ask if that power may not say 
 that the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence 
 shall not be read ? I mean no reflection. This matter 
 has come out in evidence here, and I draw from it what 
 may be supposed to be legitimate conclusions. The gentle- 
 men opposite may smile, but I ask if they can escape from 
 these conclusions. I know there are many of the Catholic 
 laity who are Americans bv birth, and many by adoption, 
 who would settle that question very soon. Though the 
 mitre may be placed by a foreign power, on the head of 
 him that wears it, I know there is a feeling in the Ameri- 
 can bosom — be it Catholic or Protestant — that will not 
 allow a foreign Potentant either directly, or indirectly, 
 to ititerfere. Now, Mr. President, I have got through 
 all I propose to say on this subject, and again I put it to 
 vou, s'iall we not have the privilege to learn our little fel- 
 low citizens to read, and write, and cipher, and to teach 
 them the common elements of Geography and History? 
 Shall we be prevented by a conscientious scruple ? Mr. 
 Chairman, I feel a strong desire that both Protestants and 
 Catholics sbou'd be brought into the same schools, and I 
 see in such a circumstance, great and wholesome, and be- 
 neficial political results. When a stranger comfs here 
 from a foreign land, where he has been oppressed, I am 
 willing to grant him an asylum, and to say that he shall 
 have all the benefits of this land, and of our Constitution ; 
 and that if he has been oppressed, that he has come to a 
 country where he shall be oppressed no more. All I ask 
 is that he shall give America his heart. If he comes with 
 an Irisa heart, let it become an American heart; let him 
 stand by America, and by her children, enjoying the same 
 rights as they enjoy, and growing up with them, amalga- 
 mate with them, and interchanging the same kind and be- 
 nevolent feelings together. That is what I want. I want 
 to see the country from which he came second in his re- 
 gard to the land of his adoption, to the land of his children, 
 and I want those children so brought up that when they 
 become men they shall have pure American feelings. I 
 hope, sir, they will not be taught that we entertain the same 
 feeling here that orangemen, and Protebtanls, entertain in 
 Ireland. We are not unfriendly to them ; our children are 
 not their enemies; let us then grow up and amalgamate to- 
 gether. I dislike any system that would cast off from 
 American ground these children of foreign countries; and 
 I r.sk the gentleman if they cannot come in and place their 
 children side by side with ours, and let them feel thai in 
 the Schools there are no partialities, and that out of them 
 they may go to their own chu ch and bow before their own 
 altar. But for civil purposes let all be brought up to- 
 gether. 
 
 Mr. Chairman, there is another very plausible argument 
 presented here. They tell you in their menu rial that they 
 will engage to give as good an ordinary secular education 
 as the public Schools can give for the same money. They 
 propose to allow their Schools to be visited by the public 
 authorities, or by the Trustees themselves, and to place 
 
them under some general supervision. Now there are two 
 ways of insuring the fidelity of Trustees, in directing the 
 object of a public trust towards the end designed ; one is by- 
 supervision, and the other is by so creating the trust, as to 
 insure, by its organization, the requisite fidelity. The latter 
 I prefer. Here is a religious society whose paramount 
 purpose is religious instruction ; if to that be superadded a 
 literary education it will be subordinate to the other as it 
 ought ; its constant tendency will be to neglect the literary 
 education for the purpose of promoting the other, and there- 
 fore, the object of the legislature will most likely be neg- 
 lected. 
 
 But here is the Public School Society, created for one 
 single purpose — and that is, education; for that it is organ- 
 ized, and to that end all its operations tend. But if it had 
 two objects in view, the paramount one would be that which 
 would receive its chief attention ; the other and subordinate 
 one would r< ceive less. If you entrust this business of 
 education to a Religious Society, religion will be para- 
 mount and literature will be subordinate. Let that subor- 
 dinate one be paid for by the state, and it would be in their 
 case if they had no other object. Bui gentlemen the ques- 
 tion is, will you desert the Public School Society, and take 
 up this New Society ? It has been said that the Public 
 School Society is a monopoly. In the country the 
 Trustees are chosen by the people, but in this city, owing 
 to its peculiar organization, the matter is left to the super- 
 intendence of benevolent individuals who are voluntary 
 agents. They receive no compensation for their services, 
 and experience has shown that the duties have been bet'er 
 discharged by that system than by any other. You may 
 go to the Schools in i he state and examine the most favoura- 
 ble ones; then visit the Schools in this city, and the educa- 
 tion in our Schools will be found superior to that in the 
 Common Schools elsewhere. 
 
 This society is called a corporation : but it is a corpo- 
 ration which is bound by law to report all its proceedings 
 every year to this council, and at stated times to the Legis- 
 lature. It is a corporation of which the members of this 
 board are ex officio members. It is a corporation which 
 has control of a great fund, and it has for its end the good 
 of the state ; but it is willing that its real estate shall be trans- 
 ferred to this corporation whenever the public good re- 
 quires it, and to this end an offer has long since been made 
 and is now repeated. But if we are to have this Common 
 School system of education, I ask, if it is not better to 
 have it under the supervision 01 men of business, and of 
 high character, who are- willing to devote their leisure 
 to its interests ? I wish to call your attention to another 
 subject. This fund is a large one; $73,000 is from the 
 state a*id compulsory taxation; .in the country, as ex- 
 plained by my associate, a certain sum is granted by the 
 state on condition that an equal sum is added to the School 
 Fund, by a tax laid on the people themselves who re- 
 ceive it. But independent of that, our citizens came and 
 asked to be taxed someth'ng more, and that amount is 
 more than the other two. But it must be recollected when 
 this request to be permitted to tax themselves still farther 
 was made, it was settled and determined that the churches 
 should be excluded. When that was settled and the 
 Schools were mainly under the supervision of the Common 
 School Society, that society got up petitions for this addi- 
 tional taxation, and because confidence was placed in that 
 society the taxation was not opposed. Now if we revert 
 back to the Common School System, this must come back 
 too; for I affirm, that the chief consideration which induced 
 the petitioners — and they were men of great property 
 among them — to sign the petition asking to be taxed for 
 
 the purposes of education, was that the School Society was 
 to have the superintendence. The sum of 873,000 was 
 thus raised because confidence was reposed in the School 
 Society, as antagonistic of those Church Societies. 
 
 Now perhaps the gentleman may ask, if the system is 
 to be changed, that we should resort to the same course as 
 is pursued in the country, where the people elect their own 
 commissioners and trustees. But if we do, the schools 
 must be governed on the same principles as these, and the 
 only difference will be in the managers. And if it is to 
 come to that I am sure these Trustees will be very willing, 
 for it is to them a source of great vexation to be compelled 
 to carry on this controversy for such a period. 
 
 They are very unwilling to come here to meet their 
 fellow citizens in a somewhat hostile manner. They have 
 nothing to gain, for the society is no benefit, to them, and 
 they give da) s and wei ks of their time, without recompence, 
 to the discharge of the duties of their trust. They have 
 nothing to gain, but they have arduous duties to discharge ; 
 nor have they anything to conceal. They report every- 
 thing to this Common Council ; and therefore, ti e public 
 know all they do, and if they are not found faithful to the 
 trust, if in the solemn judgment of this corporation they do 
 not answer the end proposed, elect others in their place, and 
 if the prayer of this petition be granted it will be equiva- 
 lent to their arraignment. I know not that I can add any- 
 thing more to my argument. It has been my foitune 
 during the last eighteen years, from time to time to argue 
 this question before other boards who came to a unanimous 
 decision, and at the very time when the question was re- 
 ferred to the Legislature the petitioners were supported by 
 a Rev. Gentleman of the highest respectability of that day, 
 and by lay gentlemen of great talent. We had the discus- 
 sion here until eleven and twelve o'clock at night, and the 
 gentlemen of the Common Council — men of great respecta- 
 bility — denied the prayer of the petition and the public sus- 
 tained them in their decision. Our Roman Cat!. olic friends 
 come now with the same principle that was decided then, 
 and I hope, Sir, the prayer of the Petitioners will not be 
 granted. 
 
 The Rev. Dr. Bond then appeared as the representative 
 of the Methodist Episcopal Church, but he gave way to 
 
 The Right Rev. Bishop Hughes, who desired to make a 
 brief reply to the two legal gentlemen who had addressed 
 the board. He said, I have a few remarks that I wish to 
 make, partly in reference to myself and partly to my prin- 
 ciples, and the views submitted with regard to those prin- 
 ciples ; but the debate has taken a range too wide and too 
 legal for me to pretend to follow it throughout. I am not 
 accustomed to the niceties of legislation or the manner of 
 interpreting statutes or acts of the Legislature, but to sum 
 up the whole of the two eloquent addresses made by the 
 gentlemen who have just spoken, they amount to this, that 
 either the consciences of Catholics must be crushed and 
 their objections resisted, or the Public School System must 
 be destroyed. That is the pith of both their observations. 
 They argue that there must be either one or the other of 
 these two results, and those gentlemen are inclined to ihe 
 course of compelling conscience to give way, they being 
 the judge of our consciences which they wish to overrule; 
 so that the Public. School Society — and I do not desire to 
 detract from it as far as good intentions are concerned — i 
 shall continue to dispose of the Public School Fund not- 
 withstanding our objections and the reasoning on which 
 they are based. The gentleman who last spoke, appeared 
 to imagine that I wished the exclusion of the Protestant 
 Bible, and that, for the benefit of Catholics, I laid myself 
 open to the charge of enmity to the word of God , but I 
 
desired nothing of the sort. 1 would leave the Proteetant 
 
 Bible lor those that reverence it; but for myself, it has not 
 my confidence. Another obj ction which he made, was of 
 a peiso. al character to myself; but while > hat gentleman 
 started with the beautiful rule of charity to others, and with 
 a lecture on the propriety of retaining our station in life, 
 and the impropriety of the public appeals of which he was 
 pleased to speak, I regret lhat his practice was not in ac- 
 cordance with his precept — and that while he was lectur- 
 ing me on the subject, he himself should have sfone beyond 
 anything which proper discussion called for. If I attended 
 those meetings it was because I felt the evil of the present 
 system as regards us — not its evil as regaids others; and 
 we must be permitted to be the judge of our own duties, and 
 to see for ourselves while we accord to others the same right 
 for themselves. I beg to disclaim any intention to over 
 rule this community or to bring any thing from Rome, ex- 
 cept to those who believe in its spiritual authority. Con- 
 sequently all those remaiks of that gentleman have been 
 out of pluce; and for the rest I conceive the true point has 
 not been touched. Not one of our objections or scruples 
 of conscience has he undertaken to analyze, nor the grounds 
 on which they exist. When I gave those reasons for our 
 objections, 1 thought some argument would have been 
 urged faiily against them, but the only end the gentleman 
 appears to have in view, is the preservation of I he School 
 Society, and to maintain that they have a patent right to the 
 office. That I know is his object ; but I did not expect to 
 hear any man construing the law as that its advantages 
 cannot reach us unless we lay down and sacrifice our con- 
 sciences at the threshhold. I have spoken for myself, and 
 I have disclaimed all high- handed objects; but the gentle- 
 man insists notwithstanding the phdge which we have 
 given, that in spite of all, we shall teach cur religion. I 
 disclaim such intentions, and [ do not think it fair in that 
 gentleman to impute intentions which we disclaim. The 
 gentleman has drawn a beautiful | icture of Society if all 
 could live in harmony, (I would it could be reduced to 
 practice,) whether born in foreign parts or in this countrv. 
 But if all could be brought up together — if all could asso- 
 ciate in such a state without prejudice to the public welfare 
 while the Protestants use such books as those to which we 
 object, it could only be by the Catholic concealing his re- 
 ligion, for if he owns it he will be called a "Papist." The 
 gentleman says that one of the books to which we object is 
 not a text book used in the Schools ; but, if not, it is one of 
 the books placed in the library to which I do not say we 
 contribute more than others, but it is supported at the | ub- 
 lic expense, to which Catholics contribute as well as others. 
 I will read you one passage and leave you to judge for 
 yourselves what will be its effects on the minds of our chil- 
 dren. The work is entitled "The Irish Heart." and the 
 author at page 24, is dtsciibing an Irish Catholic, and he 
 says: — "As for old Phclim Maghee, he was of no particu- 
 lar relijjion." 
 
 And how the gentlemen describe the Public Schools, but 
 as Schools of religion and no religion. They say they crive 
 rel igious instruction : but again they say it is not religion, 
 for it does not vitiate their claim. 
 
 "As for old Phelim Maghee, he was no of particular religion.'' 
 
 " When Phelim had laid up a good stock of sins, he now and then, 
 went over to Killarncy, ol a Sabbath morning, and got relaaf by con- 
 Jissing thein out o' the way, as he used to express it, and sealed up his 
 soul w ith a wafer." 
 
 That is the term they apply to our doctrine of transub- 
 stantiation, and they want us to associate and to enjoy every 
 thing in harmony when they thus assail our religious 
 right. 
 
 •' and returned quite invigorated, for the perpetration of 
 
 new offences.'' 
 
 Now, suppose Catholic children hear this in the com' 
 pa ny of their Protestant associates ! They will be subjec 1 
 to the ridicule of their companions, and the consequence 
 will be that their domestic and religious attachments will 
 become weakened, they will become ashamed of their re- 
 ligion, and they will grow up Nothingarians. 
 
 But again, on page 120, when t peaking of intemperance, 
 we find the following :— 
 
 " It i- more probable, however, a part of the papal system." 
 
 And this, notwithstanding all that Father Matthew has 
 
 done. 
 
 " For, when drunkenness shall have been done away, and with it, 
 that just, relative proportion of all indolence, ignorance, crime, misery, 
 and superstition, of which it is the putative parent; then truly a much 
 smaller portion of mankind may be expected to follow the dark lantern 
 of the Romish religion." 
 
 " That religion is uioct likely to find professors among the frivo- 
 lous and the wicked, w ! x-h by a species of ecclesiastical legerde- 
 main can persuade the biuner, that lie is going ie heaven, when he 
 is going directly to hell. By a refined and complicated system of 
 Jesuitry, and prelatical juggling, the papal see has obtained its pre 
 sent extensive influence through the woild." 
 
 And unless we send our children to imbibe these lessons 
 we are going to overturn the system ! But is that the true 
 conc'usion to which the gentleman should come, from our 
 petition? Is that reasoning from facts and the evidence 
 before their eyes? I have promised not to detain the 
 board, and therefore, I would merely say, if I have at- 
 tended those meetings it was not with the views the gen- 
 tleman has imputed to me, nor to distinguish myself as 
 has been insinuated. I have taken good care to banish 
 politics from those meetings, and if I have mentioned the 
 number of Catholics, or of their children.it was to show 
 how far this system fills short of the end which the 
 Legislature had in view. I disclaim utterly and entirely 
 the intention imputed to me by the gentleman, but I will 
 not longer detain the board. 
 
 Mr. Mott, one of the Public School Trustees, with the 
 permission of the board, explained the manner in which 
 the book which the Right Rev. prelate had last alluded 
 too, had found its way into the Schools. It was one of a 
 series of tales published by the temperance society ; and 
 when a committee was appointed for filling the library, 
 their attention was called to the first number of the series: 
 they read two or three of them which had come from the 
 press, and as they appeared to be adapted to the reading of 
 children the committee admitted them, and by some mis- 
 lake it was supposed that all the other volumes of the 
 same series and under the same title were ordered too, and 
 they were sent in as they issued from the press after that 
 period, and in this way the book in question had crept 
 in. But this being discovered by a Catholic trustee, it 
 was withdrawn, and of this the gentlemen were fully ap- 
 prized, and therefore he asked if it was generous or just to 
 quote that book, under these circumstances, to strengthen 
 the cause of the Catholics. 
 
 The Right Rev. Bishop Hughes assured the gentle- 
 man that he, until that moment, had not heard of the books 
 having been withdrawn. 
 
 The Rev. Dr. Bond then again rose to address the 
 boird as the representative of the Methodist Episcopal 
 Church, but as it was now ten o'clock, it was proposed by 
 one of the aldermen to take a recess until Friday after- 
 noon at four o'clock, which was agreed too, and the board 
 adjourned. 
 
29 
 
 SECOND DAY. 
 
 The Board re-assembled at, four o'clock on Friday the 
 30th October, by adjournment from the previous day, 
 but some time elapsed before the debate could be resum- 
 ed in consequence of the difficulty which the gentlemen 
 who took part in the proceedings, found in gaining an 
 entrance to the Council Chamber through the greatly in- 
 creased crowd of persons who were anxious and strug- 
 gling to be present. After the room had been filled to 
 overflowing, many hundreds were still excluded who 
 desired admission; but the room was filled to its utmost 
 capacity, even to standing room in the windows, and 
 those still crowding round the entrance door were obliged 
 to endure the disappointment. Davtd Graham, Esq. Al 
 derman of the Fifteenth Ward, presided on this occasion 
 as the locum tcnens of the President, Mr. Alderman 
 Purdy, who however was present seated with the Alder- 
 men. There were also present many distinguished and 
 Reverend gentlemen of various denominations of this 
 City, besides those who took part in the discussion. Dr. 
 Brownlee was seated near Dr. Bond during that gentle- 
 man'3 speech, but he did not attempt to address the 
 Board. 
 
 The Rev. Dr. Pise and other Reverend gentlemen of 
 the Catholic Church, were seated with the Right Rev. 
 Bishop Hughes and the Very Rev. Dr. Power, and many 
 preachers of the Methodist Episcopal Church, were in 
 the vicinity of the orator by whom they were represent- 
 ed. 
 
 When all the gentlemen were seated, the President 
 called upon the Rev. Dr. Bond, of the Methodist Epis- 
 copal Church to proceed with the debate on behalf of 
 the remonstrants of that body. 
 
 The Rev. Dr. Bond, spoke as follows : — 
 Mr. Prestdext and Gentlemen of the Common 
 CouNdL, — It may be necessary here, in the outset, that 
 I should, on the part of those that I represent, disclaim 
 all hostility to our fellow citizens who have made their 
 claim to this Council. To them we have no hostility, 
 nay we have no prejudice against them as a body, and 
 of any hostility that may be found in the memorial which 
 we have presented to this body, the address of the Right 
 Rev. gentleman who opened this discussion last night, 
 will furnish us with a thorough explanation, for when he 
 adverted to that part of his memorial which related to 
 the Society of Friends, he wished it to be expressly un- 
 derstood that he spoke of their creed apart from them- 
 selves. Now this is the explanation we wish to make of 
 our memorial which we have presented to this Council. 
 We speak of the creed of the Roman Catholic Church 
 apart from the Roman Catholics themselves. We are 
 bound, not only by the obligations of social life, but by 
 our common Christianity to extend to them all the benev- 
 olence which we think ought to be exercised towards 
 any other portion of our fellow citizens. It may be asked 
 why we adverted to their creed at all. Because it was 
 wholly unavoidable. We could not do otherwise, be- 
 cause it was on its peculiarities that they rested their 
 claim to a portion of this Fund — it was on their peculiar 
 creed that they rested their scruples against sending their 
 children to the Public Schools. We could therefore, no 
 otherwise, resist their claim but by adverting to those 
 peculiarities. And it is complained that we adverted to 
 them with too little respect. Now sir, we must be allow- 
 ed to say that whatever there is of disrespect to our Roman 
 Catholic fellow citizens in this memorial, they must 
 
 allow something for the provocation. Sir, we r>ad es- 
 teemed the Public Schools a common benefit, and we 
 had made sacrifices to the system. We too should have 
 been glad if we could have educated our children in our 
 own way, and in our sectarian tenets, or prejudices if 
 you will ; but when we found the legislature providing 
 an education that should be universal, we brought all our 
 sectarian feelings and placed them on the altar of the 
 public welfare And when we found the Public Schools 
 which we esteemed so great a good, about to be destroy- 
 ed by the sectarian prejudices of another denomination, 
 we were alarmed, and we stated in our memorial that 
 we were alarmed ; and was there no cause for alarm ? 
 Why the public gatherings which were so feelingly al- 
 luded to last night, were cause of alarm ? Was there 
 not cause for alarm when, at a time of general excite- 
 ment and political strife, there were these gatherings of 
 the Catholi«s, — and was there not cause to fear that their 
 object was to wrest from the Common Council by intimi- 
 dation, what they had failed to obtain by reason and ar- 
 gument ? Such were our fears; but really sir, the com- 
 plaint of want of respect in our memorial, is wholly out 
 of place. Why, the gentleman reminds me of a man 
 who while deliberately skinning a living eel, cursed the 
 " varmint" because it would not hold still. Why, sir, 
 this skinning is a serious matter ; I hope, however, that 
 we shall be allowed the apology which the Right Rev. 
 gentleman made for himself and for those associated with 
 him when speaking of the Society of Friends and their 
 creed — 
 
 The Right Rev. Bishop Hughes interposed and said 
 he had not spoken of the creed of either the Society of 
 Friends or of the Methodists : he did not suppose this 
 body was sitting in judgment on creeds. 
 
 The Rev. Dr. Bond continued. I admit that when 
 the Reverend gentleman spoke of the Society of Friends, 
 he did not speak of them by name. Well, but the 
 Right Rev. gentleman says, — and he contends it has an 
 
 important bearing on this matter that we have 
 
 made a false issue — that we charge that the applicants 
 require a portion of this public money for sectarian pur- 
 poses, and this he says is " a false issue." If this be true, 
 it will have an important bearing on the question; but 
 we affirm that it is not a false issue : it is the true issue; 
 there can he no other issue. It will be remembered sir, 
 that we have only now to justify what we have alleged 
 in our memorial; we are not going into the merits of the 
 legal part ofthe question, for we are not of the legal profes- 
 sion; and after what we have heard from the legal gentle- 
 men in this discussion, it cannot be expected. But we do 
 affirm that the issue we in common with the Trustees of 
 the Public School Society plead — that this money is ap- 
 plied for, for Sectarian purposes — is the true issue. 
 How do we prove it '. It has been one leading objection 
 to the Public Schools, that no religion is taught in them. 
 Well, it is also alleged that no religion can be taught 
 there, unless we teach sectarianism. Now if it be com- 
 plained on the part of our Roman Catholic fellow citi- 
 zens that no religion is taught in these schools, surely 
 they don't mean to keep schools in which they will teach 
 no religion. We take them to be honest in what they 
 say, and I hope that is not "a false issue " They 
 allege that no religion is taught, and that none can he 
 taught without teaching sectarianism. Now we take it 
 for granted, that they wtll not keep schools in which no 
 religion is taught, or why do they object to the Public 
 
30 
 
 Schools? And if they teach religion, it must be sec- 
 
 tarianism, for they themselves allege that no religion 
 can be taught without teaching sectarianism ; and if 
 so, then will not the public money be used for sectarian 
 purposes ? There is only one way to escape from this 
 position. What claim may he set up here, I know not, 
 but elsewhere it is alleged, that they teach the Roman 
 Catholic Religion, and thai is not sectarianism, inasmuch 
 as it is the only true Religion. 
 
 This may be a salvo for them but it is not for us. 
 They will not expect that other denominations will ad- 
 mit that the Roman Catholic is the only true religion, 
 and that it is not sectarianism. Rut if they do, and if 
 they still say that theirs is the only true church, — and if 
 they, only a branch of the common -stock — only one of 
 the many sects of our common Christianity, teach ( alh- 
 olicism there, they teach sectarianism as much as Meth- 
 odists would do if they had, one of these Schools in 
 which they taught Methodism. And if they teach Cath- 
 olic sectarianism to their children, will not the money 
 they claim, if allowed, be applied to sectarian purposes 1 
 This is all wo said, sir, and is this " a false issue !" We 
 say it is the true issue; there can be no other issue, for 
 there can be no possible objection to this conclusion. 
 So much for "the issue," sir. 
 
 But it was complained, sir, that we have said the ar- 
 guments by which their application on a former occasion 
 was resisted, were " clear, cogent, and unanswerable." 
 We grant that this is a matter of opinion ; we say 
 when we read them in the memorial of the Trustees of 
 the Public Schools, we thought them clear, cogent, and 
 conclusive; but we accord to the gentleman the right to 
 form his own opinion, and can he complain if we claim 
 the same privilege which we accord to him ? But it was 
 complained that we had alleged that " neither the con- 
 stitution of the State, nor the public welfare, are to be 
 regarded, when they stand in the way of Roman Catho- 
 lic sectarianism and exclusiveness." Why, is it not on 
 the ground of Sectarian exclusiveness that they make 
 this claim ? I take it for granted that if they cannot 
 conscientiously send their children to the Public Schools, 
 their conscientious objection is founded on their creed. 
 There is something of peculiarity in their creed, for they 
 alone of all the denominations, have scruples on this sub- 
 ject; and we did not then intend to give offence by the 
 term sectarian exclusiveness. But again, it is complained 
 that we alleged that " It must be manifest to the Common 
 Council, that if the Roman Catholic claims are granted, 
 all the other christian denominations will urge their 
 claims for a similar appropriation, and that the money 
 raised for education by a general tax, will be solely appli- 
 ed to the purposes of proselytism, through the medium 
 of sectarian schools." And can any thing be clearer ? 
 Indeed the gentleman does not take particular exception 
 to this. " That the money raised for education by a 
 general tax will be solely applied to the purposes of 
 proselytism!" Why, if they are honest in their preju- 
 dices for their form of worship, and if they believe their 
 own religion the best, they will endeavor to impart their 
 own views and all the principles which they advocate to 
 those they take under their own care. And what is this 
 but proselytism? The word is not used offensively for 
 we only mean by making proselytes, the making con- 
 verts to their own faith. But we had said "If this were 
 done, would it be the price of* peace ? or would it not 
 throw the apple of discord into the whole Christian com- 
 
 munity ? Should we agree in the division of the spoils ? 
 
 Would each sect be satisfied with the portion allotted to 
 it?" Is there any thing offensive in thisquestion ? Might 
 we not honestly differ respecting the amount appropriated 
 
 to us severally ? 
 
 " We venture to say, that the sturdy claimants who now beset 
 the Council, would not be satisfied with much less than the lion's 
 share and we are sure that there are other Protestant denominations 
 besides ourselves, who would not patiently submit to the exaction." 
 
 And this has been spoken of sir, by the Right Rev. 
 gentleman as though we had threatened a rebellion! 
 Is it necessary that we should Btir up rebellion to carry 
 out all we said ? We only said " we are sure that there 
 are other Protestant denominations besides ourselves, 
 who would not patiently submit to the exaction." Have 
 the Catholics submitted patiently to what they consider 
 a grievance ? Certainly not, for they have reiterated 
 their claim again and again with a perseverance, which 
 in a good cause is praiseworthy. But we did not say we 
 would rebel ; we said we would not " patiently submit," 
 nor should we be patient until we obtained a legal remedy. 
 But we have said " when all the christian sects shall be 
 satisfied with their individual share of the Public Fund, 
 what is to become of those children whose parents be- 
 long to none of these sects, and who cannot conscien- 
 tiously allow them to be educated in the peculiar dogmas 
 of any one of them '. The different committees who on a 
 foimer occasion approached your hon. body, have shown, 
 that to provide schoois for these only, would require lit- 
 tle less than is now expedded; and it requires little 
 arithmetic to show that when the religious sects have 
 taken all, nothing will remain for those who have not 
 yet been able to decide, which of the Christian denom- 
 inations to prefer. It must be plain to every impartial 
 observer, that the applicants are opposed to the whole 
 system of public school instruction " Mow the gentleman 
 admits it — he says it is obviously true, that when all is 
 taken nothing would remain. And would not the sects 
 take all ? Who else would there be to take it ? And 
 when they had taken all, nothing would remain. But 
 we have alluded to a large body who would remain to be 
 educated, when we have no money left for that purpose. 
 Our Roman Catholic brethren claim to be one-fifth of the 
 population. We shall not dispute this. But when the 
 Right Uev. gentleman alluded to the statement that six 
 Catholic teachers were employed in the Public Schools, 
 he disputed five out of the six, and said that there was 
 but one that deserved the name. Now if you take these 
 six teachers as a fair sample of this one fifth of the popu- 
 lation which is nominally Catholic, how many would be 
 left that are really Catholic? and how many would on 
 similar principles of calculation really belong to any of 
 the other sects who profess to belong to them? 
 But again, allowing that all are Israel that are of Israel — 
 that all are christian that profess to be christian — what 
 portion of the City of New-York is there that professes 
 to belong to any sect at all? Not one half I arn sure. 
 Well what becomes of the children of those who belong 
 to none of these sects? When the money is distributed 
 among the sects "what is to become of those cnildren 
 whose parents belong to none of these sects and who 
 cannot conscientiously allow them to be educated in the 
 peculiar dogmas of any one of them ?" Now, sir, the 
 Committees of the Public School Society expressly tell 
 us, that it would require little less than the present ap- 
 propriation to provide for these ODly, and why? Be- 
 cause the expense of tuition is not in proportion to the 
 
31 
 
 number taught. When you have provided what is ne- 
 cessary for a given number, a great addition may be 
 made without augmenting the expense at all; and thus 
 a great expense will be incurred for those who are of no 
 denomination. But we shall advert to this hereafter. — 
 Sir, particular exception has been taken to our memorial, 
 and the gentleman did us the honor to take it up seriatim, 
 paragragh by paragraph ; and therefore it may be requi- 
 site that I should thus follow him. 1 now then pass to 
 another of the condemned passages which it contains : — 
 
 " We are sorry that the reading of the Bible in the public schools, 
 without note or commentary, is offensive to them ; but we cannoi 
 allow the holy scriptures to be accompanied with their notes and 
 commentaries, and to be put into the hands of the children, who 
 may hereafter be the rulers and legislators of our beloved country ; 
 because, among other bad things taught in these commentaries, is to 
 be found the lawfulness of murdering heretics ; and the unqalified 
 submission in all matters of conscience to the Roman Catholic 
 Church." 
 
 Sir, we confess if we march to our object, it must be 
 by a plain road. We are a plain people, but we com- 
 promise nothing on the subject of religion. The Right 
 Reverend gentleman denied that such are the contents 
 of their books, and to confirm his opinion, he offers to 
 bet me a thousand dollars. Sir, the Right Reverend 
 gentleman must excuse me. He tells us our religion is 
 a young religion. Be it so sir, but our Church is old 
 enough to teach us the sinfulness of betting. Sir, I have 
 been taught, as one of the primary principles of morals, 
 that it is sinful to take my neighbor's money without an 
 equivalent. Now, should I accept the gentleman's of- 
 fer and cover his thousand dollars, he, or else I, should 
 take the money of the other without an equivalent. It 
 may be conformable with the creed of the Right Rev. 
 gentleman, but he must aliow me to have my " consci- 
 entious scruples," and I shall accord the same to him. 
 But if I do not take up his bet I will try to do better. 
 We have said in our memorial that their commentaries 
 teach the lawfulness of murdering heretics. That is the 
 first step. Now we are bound to sustain this; at least 
 we are bound to show this Common Council on what au- 
 thority we state this. We are bound to submit our au- 
 thority to the Common Council, and then any gentleman 
 will be able to make up his own mind on the subject. I 
 hold in my hand, sir, what is called "The Rhemish New 
 Testament," and it is proper that I should here say, that 
 we have not said in our memorial, that these Catholic Com- 
 mentaries have received the sanction of the proper au- 
 thorities of that church. We said no such thing. We 
 said Catholic Commentaries, and I know of no Commen- 
 taries among Protestants, that have received the sanc- 
 tion of a Protestant Church; and yet, do we not call 
 them Protestant in contradistinction to Catholic Com- 
 mentaries ? All we have then to prove, is this, that this 
 Rhemish New Testament is a Catholic New Testament, 
 written and published by Roman Catholics, and with 
 such sanctions as ordinarily obtain among the proper 
 ministers of the church. It may be alleged that it is 
 necessary to have the sanction of His Holiness, or the 
 Council; but all I contend for, is, that it has been circu- 
 lated among Catholics, that it was translated for that 
 purpose, and is therefore a Catholic Commentary. That 
 is all we contend for. We do not insist that the Right 
 Rev. gentleman, or any Church Council, or His Holiness 
 himself countenances it- We could not summon His 
 Holiness to testify on the subject; but in order to ascertain 
 the weight of the historical record of that church, we 
 
 tmust take it as it is received by the church itself. Now 
 this book — the Rhemish New Testament says : — 
 
 " The Douay Bible is usually so called, because although the New 
 Testament was first translated and published at Rheims, yet the Old 
 Testament was printed some years after at Douay ; the English 
 Jesuits having removed their monastery from Rheims to Douay, 
 before their version of the Old Testament was completed. In the 
 year 1816, an edition, including both the Douay Old, and the Rhem- 
 ish New Testament, was issued at Dublin, containing a large num- 
 ber of comments, replete with impiety, irreligion, and the most 
 fiery persecution." 
 
 The Right Rev. Bishop Hughes. From what do you 
 read ? 
 
 The Rev. Dr. Bond. I read from the second para- 
 graph of the " Introductory Address to Protestants," of 
 an edition of the Rhemish Testament published in New 
 York. It is attested by gentlemen of the highest repu- 
 tation in this country — by men that will compare in char- 
 acter with any gentlemen — Protestant or Catholic— in 
 any country ; and they insist it is a true republication of 
 that New Testament which was published at Rheims in 
 1582. 
 
 " That edition was published under the direction of all the digni- 
 taries of the Roman Hierarchy in Ireland ; and about three hundred 
 others of the most influential subordinate Priests. The notes which 
 urged the hatred and murder of Protestants, attracted the attention 
 of the British churches ; and to use the words of T. Hartwell Horne, 
 that edition of the Rhemish Testament printed at Dublin in 1816, 
 " corrected and revised and approved by Dr. Troy, Roman Catholic 
 Archbishop of Dublin, was reviewed by the British Critic, vol. 8, 
 page 276 — 308 ; New Series ; and its dangerous tenets both civil and 
 religious were exposed." 
 
 " This publication, with many others of a similar character, pro- 
 duced so great an excitement in Britain, that finally several of the 
 most prominent of the Irish Roman Prelates were called before the 
 English Parliament to prove their own work. Then, and upon oath, 
 with all official solemnity, they peremptorily disclaimed the volumes 
 published by their own instigation, and under their own super- 
 vision and auspices, as books of no authority ; because they had not 
 been ratified by the Pope, and received by the whole Papal Church."' 
 
 Now have we made any mistake in calling this a Cath- 
 olic Commentary ? It must be admitted we have some 
 ground for it. And now for some of the "Annotations" 
 to show the ground we have for alleging that they do 
 teach the lawfulness of murdering heretics. 
 
 " And the servants said to him, wilt thou we go and gather it 
 up ?" 
 
 Mr. Alderman Graham (Chairman.) Will the speak- 
 er give the page. 
 
 The Rev Dr. Bond. The 44th page, and the 2Sth 
 verse of the 13th chapter of Matthew. 
 
 " And he said, No ; lest perhaps gathering up the cockle, you 
 may root up the wheat also together with it " 
 
 Now for the Commentary. 
 
 " The good must tolerate the evil, when it is so strong that it can- 
 not be redressed without danger and disturbance of the whole 
 Church, and commit the matter to God's judgment in the latter day. 
 Otherwise where ill men, be they Heretics or other malefactors, may 
 be punished or suppressed without disturbance and hazard of the 
 good, they may and ought by public authority, either spiritual or 
 temporal, to be chastised or executed." 
 
 I quote from the 9th chapter of St. Luke, page 10S. 
 
 •' And when his disciples James and Ji>hn hi d sp' n it, they said. 
 Lord wilt thou we say that (ire. come down from heav n and consume 
 them ? And turning, he rebuked them, saying, you know not of what 
 spirit you are." 
 
 Now for the " Annotation." 
 
 " Not justice nor all rigorous punishment of sinners is here forbid- 
 den, nor Elias' fact reprehended, nor the Church or Christian Pimrrs 
 blamed for puttine heretics to death : but that none of these slmild be 
 done for di sire of our particular revenue, or without discre ion, and 
 regard of their amendment, and example to oiheri. '1 heiefore Peter 
 
used his power upon Ananias and Sophira, when he struck them both 
 
 down to death for defrauding the Church." 
 
 I quote from the 1 1 6th page, the 23d verse of the 1 4th 
 chapter of St. Luke. 
 
 " And the Lord said to the servant, go forth into the ways and 
 hedges : and compel them to enter, that my iiouse may be filled." 
 
 Now for the Commentary. 
 
 "The vehement persuasion that God useth, both externally by force 
 of his word and miracles, and internally by his grace, to bring us unto 
 him, is called compelling: not that he forceth any to come to him 
 against, their wills, but that he can alter and mollify a hard heart, 
 and make him willing that before would not. Augustine also refer- 
 eth this compelling to the penal laws which Catholic Princes do 
 justly use against Heretics and Schismatics, proving that they who 
 arc by their former profession in Uaptisin, subject to the Catholic 
 Church, and are departed from the same after Sects, may and ought 
 to be compelled into the unity and society of the universal church 
 again : and therefore, in this sense, by the two former parts 
 of the parables, the Jews first, and secondly the Gentiles, that never 
 believed before in Christ, were invited by fair sweet means only : 
 but by the third, such are invited a* the Church of God hath power 
 over, because they promised in baptism, and therefore are to be re- 
 voked not only by gentle means, but by just punishment also." 
 
 I quote from the Annotations of the 23d verse of the 
 20th chapter of St. John. 
 
 " The earthly Princes indeed have also power to bind, but the 
 bodies only : but that bond of Priests wbicn I speak of, toucheth 
 the very soul itself, and rcacheth even to the heavens : insomuch, 
 that whatsoever the Priests shall do beneath, the self-same God doth 
 ratify above, and the sentence of the servants of the Lord doth con- 
 firm, for indeed what else is this than that the power of all heavenly 
 things is granted them of God ?" 
 
 I quote from page 214, verse 11, chapter 25 of the 
 Acts. 
 
 " I appeal to Cesar." 
 This is the Annotation. 
 
 " If Paul both to save himself from whipping and from death 
 sought by the Jews, doubted not to cry for honor of the Roman 
 laws, and to appeal to Cesar, the Prince of the Romans, not yet 
 christened: how much more may we call for aid of Christian Prin- 
 ces and their laws, for the punishment of Heretics, and for the 
 church's defence against them." 
 
 I quote from Annotations, on the 10th chapter of He- 
 brews 29th verse, on page 373. 
 
 " Heresy and Apostacy from the Catholic faith, punishable by 
 death » 
 
 I will make hut one more extract and that is from the 
 Annotations on the Apocalypse, or the book of Revela- 
 tions, 17th chapter, 6 verse, page 480; it is in reference 
 to the woman drunken with the blood of the Saints : — 
 
 " It is plain, that this woman signifieth the whole corps of all the 
 persecutors that have and shall shed so much blood of the just : of 
 the Prophets, Apostles, and other Martyrs, from the beginning of 
 the world to the end. The Protestants foolishly expound it of 
 Rome, for that there they put Heretics to death, and allow of their 
 punishment in other countries : But their blood is not called the 
 blood of the Saints, no more than the blood of thieves, man-killers, 
 and other malefactors : for the shedding of which by order of jus- 
 tice, no commonwealth shall answer." 
 
 A friend suggests to me that I may also say the Rhem- 
 ish New Testament is not found in the Prohibitory Index ; 
 but I do not assert that this is in itself conclusive, for 
 there are, I must admit, thousands of books that are not 
 forbidden, for which Catholics are not responsible. All 
 we contend for, is this, that this book was published at 
 Rheims by the Jesuits ; that they subsequently remov- 
 ed to and republished it at Douay ; since that it was repub- 
 lished in Ireland under the sanction of the Catholic Dig- 
 nitaries and of a large number of the Priesthood of that 
 church. But when it was found that this work had creat- 
 ed great alarm in England, and these very dignitaries 
 were called before the British Parliament, they did not 
 say it had not their sanction, but they alleged that be- 
 cause it was not sanctioned by His Holiness, and had not 
 
 received the sanction of the Church, but was only circu- 
 lated among and sanctioned by a small portion of it, the 
 Church was not responsible for it, as it was not of Catho- 
 lic authority. We have not said in our memorial, that 
 it had the authority or was sanctioned by the church. 
 We know of no translation into any vulgar tongue which 
 has received the sanction of Pope or Council- The latin 
 vulgate only has been so sanctioned. We only allege 
 then, that this is a Catholic publication, or that it is pub- 
 lished by Catholics ; and that these are Catholic Com- 
 mentaries. And we again affirm all we have said. We 
 have moreover alleged, that " among other bad things 
 taught in these Commentaries, is to be found the absolute 
 and unqualified submission in all matters of conscience 
 to the Roman Catholic Church." But as it has been 
 admitted that the church has this authority with all who 
 submit to that church, it is unnecessary to prove that the 
 Commentaries teach it. 
 
 Sir, the next complaint was of the following para- 
 graph : 
 
 " The Roman Catholics complain that books have been introduced 
 into the public schools, which are injurious to them u a body. It 
 is allowed, however, that the passages in these books, to which such 
 reference is made, are chiefly, if not entirely, historical ; and We 
 put it to the candor of the Common Council to say whether any 
 history of Europe, tor the last ten centuries, could be written, 
 which could either oinit to mention the Roman Catholic Church, or 
 mention it without recording historical facts unfavorable to that 
 Church ? We assert that il all the historical facts in which the 
 Church of Rome has taken a prominent part could be taken from 
 writers of her own communion only, the incidents might be made 
 more objectionable to the complainants, than any book to which 
 they now object." 
 
 Sir, the gentleman did not deny this, for, as I recollect, 
 he said it was true — be admitted " that if all the histori- 
 cal facts in which the Church of Rome has taken a prom- 
 inent part, could be taken from writers of her own com- 
 munion only, the incidents might be made more objec- 
 tionable," because they always write the truth. But 
 then he alleges that they also record a great many good 
 things. Certainly they have written " some good things," 
 but it is not from these "good things" exclusively that his- 
 tory is to be written — it is r,ot these " good things"thatare 
 to constitute history for the Public Schools. What is his- 
 tory I History is " Philosophy teaching 1 by example;" and 
 could we be taught by example if we only saw the bright 
 side of the picture and not the dark side too t Could any 
 such history be useful ? If we see but a partial record, 
 how can we avoid error? History is a beacon and a 
 chart ; but would it be so — would it be a proper directo- 
 ry if it contained only that which could be said in favor 
 of any religious sect or denomination 1 Such a record 
 would be worthless as a history. The blessed Bible does 
 not do so. Does any history contain a more particular 
 record than this Book does of the lapses and falls of the 
 most eminent people of God 1 Does not the faithful 
 page of the sacred historian, record the fall of David t Yes, 
 sir, it records that that man — that holy Psalmist himself 
 fell, being overcome by temptation, into the crimes of 
 murder and adultery. Sir, it is a faithful history and I 
 would desire that all our histories should tecord all the 
 good of Roman Catholics, but they must record the evil 
 also, or they are not histories at all. But we have said 
 " History, then, must be falsified for their accommoda- 
 tion," and would it not be so if only that which was good of 
 them were recorded i " And yet they complain that the 
 system of education adopted in the Public Schools, does 
 not teach the sinfulness of lying !" It may be painful to 
 
33 
 
 them, but are we to have no feeling? But the Right 
 Rev. gentleman told us that the Methodist Episcopal 
 Church is';a young church, and that this was the reason why 
 there were not many very bad things said of us. He said 
 our church was only a hundred years old ; yet a great 
 many bad things may be done in a hundred years. But 
 we have not escaped unscathed, though perhaps the gen- 
 tleman may not know it. Why sir, Mr. O'Connell has pub- 
 lished that our Founder, Mr. Wesley, aided and abetted 
 Lord George Gordon's mob! Yes, that if Wesley did 
 not originate, he aided and abetted it ; so that we hav r e 
 not escaped unscathed. But the Rev. gentleman went 
 further. He said we had clone less good than any other 
 denomination in Christendom. Why, we are not asking 
 this Council any reward for what we have done; we 
 make no pretentions; whether we have done good we leave 
 others to decide. All we claim is, that we have stood 
 in our lot. We believe the different sects and denomina- 
 tions in Christendom are permitted of God for wise pur- 
 poses. We would not swallow them up if we could — 
 We would not cross the street to make all other Pro- 
 testants members of our church. We have our work ; 
 we cannot do their work ; they cannot do ours. We make 
 no claim ; but if we have not done a great deal of good, 
 how can the gentleman with propriety profess so much 
 respect for us ? If Ave had done good we should not have 
 escaped, any more than our brethren, so significantly and 
 appropriately termed Friends : they have done good, yet 
 they have not escaped any more than ourselves. It is to 
 them that the world owes the increasing disapproval of 
 war, and though they have not been able to accomplish 
 what they desire, and though they have been unresisting- 
 ly oppressed, they have borne a patient testimony to their 
 doctrine, and with the revolutions of this world, the day 
 will come when war will be no more. And have they 
 not borne a holy testimony against Slavery ; not a tur- 
 bulent and an abusive testimony, but such as comports 
 with the doctrines they teach, and yet they have not escap- 
 ed ; though they have confessedly done a great deal of 
 good. It has been said that the Methodist Epis- 
 copal Church in England never favored the rights of con- 
 science, nor aided in the enlargement of liberty. Why 
 there is no Methodist Episcopal Church in England at 
 all. The Methodist Society in England, claims only to 
 be a Society within the pale of the Church of England, 
 as the Jesuits are a society within the pale of the Catholic 
 Church. If it be alleged that the Methodist Society are 
 not acknowledged by the Church of England, it will 
 not be forgotten that the order of Jesuits have been sup- 
 pressed by the Pope. It seems, however, (hat the latter 
 have been restored, and so our friends in England seem 
 to be getting high in favor with the English establish- 
 ment; yet we owe them no allegiance; we send them no 
 books to be sanctioned before we venture to use then) in 
 our schools; in short we do not admit their right to dic- 
 tate to us in any matter whatever. It is in this country 
 only, that there exists any Methodist Episcopal Church. 
 But we are told that the Methodists in England have 
 never taken any part, or given any aid, in the struggle 
 for religious liberty. It is true, sir, that the Methodists 
 in England, like the Methodists here eschew all parti- 
 cipation in political strife, as a society or church. They 
 do not think it any part of their vocation to call meet- 
 ings in their churches, and address them on the political 
 questions of the day, u3 some other churches do. Per- 
 haps they are too young a church for this, and we hope 
 
 it will be a long time before they get old enough to do so. 
 But individually they act in these matters as others do; 
 and it is to honor of the Methodist denomination in 
 England, that their members generally gave their whole 
 weight and influence to Mr. Wilberforce in all his be- 
 nevolent efforts in favor of civil and religious liberty. 
 During his long struggle against the slave trade, such 
 was their attachment to him and his cause, that in some 
 paits of England collections were made at the doors of 
 their places of worship to aid in defraying the expenses 
 of his election. 
 
 But we have said " This is not all. They have been 
 most complaisantly offered the censorship of the books 
 to be used in the public schools. The committee to 
 whom has been confided the management of these schools 
 in this city, offered to allow the Roman Catholic Bishop 
 to expurgate from these books any thing offensive to him. 
 But the offer was not accepted; perhaps for the same 
 reason that he declined to decide on the admissibility of 
 a book of extracts from the Bible, which had been sanc- 
 tioned by certain Roman Bishops in Ireland An appeal, 
 it seems, had gone to the Pope on the subject, and' no- 
 thing could be said or done in the matter until his Holi- 
 ness had decided. The Common Council of New York 
 will therefore find, that when fhey shall have conceded 
 to the Roman Catholics of this city the selection of 
 books for the use of the public school*, that these books 
 must undergo the censorship of a foreign Potentate. — * 
 We hope the time is far distant when the citizens of this 
 country will allow any foreign power to dictate to them 
 in matters relating to either general or municipal law." 
 To this it is objected simply that the Roman Catholics 
 of this country acknowledge'the supremacy of the Pope 
 only in spiritual things, that they do not acknowledge in 
 him either political, or civil, or any other than spiritual 
 authority. Well, sir, we have not said they did, in our 
 memorial. What then is the complaint 1 We did not 
 undertake to determine whether the submitting to his 
 Holiness the question whether a book shall be used in 
 our schools is a spiritual or temporal matter. But we really 
 wish to know where temporal jurisdiction ends and spir- 
 itual jurisdiction begins. We should like to have some 
 definite boundary — some line of demarcation drawn be- 
 tween temporal and spiritual authority. We did consider 
 the public schools a secular matter altogether — 
 we did think it a temporal matter to decide what books 
 should be used in our public schools, for professedly 
 they do not intend to interfere with the peculiarities of 
 any sect. But if this is really a spiritual matter where will 
 it end ? What is it. it cannot reach ? What is it, it will 
 not reach ? If it is a spiritual matter, then all that is 
 necessary to carry out spiritual dominion must he grant- 
 ed, and when was it that to enforce spiritual dictation 
 temporal power was not resorted to if practicable ! The 
 timt; was when to enforce this spiritual authority a whole 
 country was laid under interdict Who docs not know 
 that the time was when the churches in England were all 
 hung in black, when the dead were unburied, when the 
 children were not baptized, and when nothing was done 
 by the clergy which the community esteemed essential 
 to their eternal interests, and subjects absolved from 
 their allegiance, because the King refused to submit to 
 the Pope of Rome. This power may not exist here; 
 the pretension may have been abandoned : hut if it 
 has been, 1 should like to know it. I should li!;e to 
 know where the boundary is between temporal and 
 
34 
 
 spiritual power. I should like, for the first time, to 
 he taught whether they consider the common interests 
 of education a secular or a spiritual matter, and if a sec- 
 ular, whether it is to be interfered with by this spiritual 
 power? As yet it cannot be determined what books 
 will be tolerated in the public schools by the Roman 
 Catholic Bishop, while an appeal has gone to the Roman 
 Pontiff, — nothing can be done here until his answer is 
 received ! The gentleman did not deny this last night, 
 when it was so alleged on the part of the Public School 
 Society, and therefore he must pardon me if I believe it. 
 
 Sir, we did, in our memorial, regret that our Roman 
 Catholic fellow citizens, in their address, should have 
 referred to the martyrs of their Church who suffered for 
 opinion's sake, and we did say it was an unfortunate al- 
 lusion. It was unfortunate because it was addressed to 
 all classes of the community, and because in this commu- 
 nity there are strangers from abroad, of all countries, 
 among whom there are descendants of protestants who 
 suffered for their religion. We said it was an unfortu- 
 nate allusion, and wc said so because it would revive in 
 the minds of many the memories of their ancestors, and 
 they would thereby be reminded of the revocation of the 
 Edict ofNantz, the massacre of St. Bartholomew's day, 
 the fires of Smithfield, or the crusade agninst the Wal- 
 denscs. Now we did not mean to say that the Right 
 Rev. gentleman has power to do these things now, we 
 did not intend to insinuate that our Koman Catholic fel- 
 low citizens would persecute now ; but we said it was 
 unfortunate, and was it not unfortunate to do anything 
 to revive the recollection of scenes so painful ? But w e 
 said we were desirous to cover all these scenes with the 
 mantle of charity, and the gentleman rebukes us. He 
 tells us to attempt to do no such thing, for our mantle is 
 too narrow. Well, I suppose he does not mean to prac- 
 tice this virtue himself, but to revive feelings in Protes- 
 tants which we should wish not to recollect if it could be 
 prevented. But he adverts to their sufferings for con- 
 science sake, and he went into details of the persecu- 
 tions of Catholics in England. Now, sir, we are not 
 here to justify persecution, nor to make excuse for it — 
 we hate it, and we love to hate it — but we are here to 
 say, and we must be allowed to say, that whatever may 
 be alleged against Protestants about persecution, that we 
 are at liberty to be better than our fathers ; we are at 
 liberty to renounce both the practice and the tenets of 
 our fathers if they are found to be wrong. We say that 
 when Protestants persecuted Catholics they were not 
 half reformed — that they had brought much that was un- 
 christian out of the Church from which they had come. 
 But we have learned better now ; we have abandoned 
 those tenets and practices. Let the Right Rev- gentle- 
 man say as much for himself ; let him say that with them 
 it is not semper tadem, always the same. Let him say 
 that the Roman Church has erred in matters of faith or 
 that she can err, and then the difficulty between Pro- 
 testants and Catholics will cease from that moment. If 
 the Catholics of the United States are at liberty to think 
 for themselves on these subjects, and dissent from what- 
 ever they believe is not according to the word of God — 
 either their translation or the original — if they are at 
 liberty to do this, the difficulty is at an end. But while 
 they are bound by the decrees of an infallible Church — 
 while they are not to determine anything for themselves 
 as a matter of faith — while they are not to believe that 
 their church can at any time be wrong in opinion — that 
 she can never err; we have more cause to fear that Cath- 
 
 olics will, if they get the power, persecute the Protes- 
 tants, than they can have of persecution from Protes- 
 tants. If they can say they do not believe as their 
 fathers did, we may hope they will not do as their fathers 
 have done; but while their motto continues to be " sem- 
 per cadem," while they continue to declare that their 
 church is always and every where the same, we think, 
 sir, we may not dismiss our fears. Let them renounce 
 their infallibility and we will be cured of our apprehen- 
 sions. But again. 
 
 " Your memorialists had hoped that the intolerance and 
 exclusiveness which had characterized the Roman Cath- 
 olic Church in Europe, had been greatly softened under 
 the benign influences of our civil institutions. The per- 
 tinacity with which their sectarian interests are now 
 urged, has dissipated the illusion. We were content 
 with their having excluded us, " ex cathedra," from all 
 claim to heaven, for we were sure they did not possess 
 tho keys, notwithstanding their confident pretension, nor 
 did wc complain that they would not allow us any partic i- 
 pation in the benefits of purgatory, for it is a place they 
 have made for themselves, and of which they may claim 
 the exclusive propriety; but we do protest against any 
 appropriation of the public school fund for their exclu- 
 sho benefit, or for any other purposes whatever." 
 
 Now the Right Rev. gentleman ought to have remark- 
 ed here an error of the printer; the omission of the 
 word " sectarian ;" and instead of " any other purpose 
 whatever " it should have read " any other sectarian 
 purpose whatever." 
 
 Sir, the gentleman admits we are right; they do ex- 
 ludc su from heaven ; but then he alleges that we are as 
 bad as we said they were, for we exclude Catholics. 
 Now, if there are any that do not allow that good pious 
 Roman Catholics are going to heaven, I do not know it* 
 If there are any such in our denomination, it is unknown 
 to me ; I hold no such opinions, and I hope the gentle- 
 man himself will take it back again, when I assure him 
 that the founder of Methodism, John Wesley, published 
 the life of Baron De Rentz, and that he abridged and 
 published u Kempis' Christian Pattern," both of which 
 have been widely circulated amongst our people. We do 
 not deny that Roman Catholics may go to heaven ; nor 
 did we complain that we were denied any participation 
 in the benefits of their purgatory ; but the gentleman tells 
 us to go farther and fare worse. Sir, we will take our 
 chance for that — we will take our chance of faring worse 
 and of getting to heaven too. But if the gentleman de- 
 nies us the benefit of his purgatory in the next world, we 
 hope he will allow us the benefits of this world. If he 
 will allow our children the benefit of the Public Schools 
 — of a place where they can learn to read God's holy 
 word ; if he will not persist in a measure w hich will 
 destroy these schools — we will take our chance of going 
 farther and faring worse. If he will allow our children 
 a place where they can learn to read that Book which as 
 the great Mr. Locke says, has God fcr its author, salva- 
 tion for its end, and truth without any mixture of error, 
 for its matter ; we will not complain of any other exclu- 
 sion he may insist upon in the matter. But it is alleged 
 that we are here to oppose Roman Catholics. Sir, we 
 would oppose the Methodists if the same application was 
 made by them. I would have stood here myself to op- 
 pose them, for I do not fear nor dedge any responsibili- 
 ty. We believe that all mankind are individually under- 
 goes a moral and intellectual probation before God; 
 and that we cannot, without incurring the divine dis- 
 
35 
 
 pleasure, substitute this probationary relation, by one 
 before any man, or any number of men, whether Pope or 
 Council, or the Methodist General Conference. None 
 of these can release us from our obligations as pro- 
 bationers before God. " To our own master we stand 
 or fall." If the Methodist Episcopal Church had issued 
 her mandate to me not to appear before this body, and 
 not to oppose this application, I would have set her au- 
 thority at nought. We believe that these Public Schools 
 are necessary to our form of government ; that it is not 
 safe to commit the preservation and perpetuation of the 
 public liberty and of our civil institutions to an ignorant, 
 untaught multitude, to those who will be incapable of ap- 
 preciating their value, or who may be made the dupes of 
 better educated but more wicked men. We say it is ne- 
 cessary to the perpetuation of public liberty that the corn- 
 unity be educated — that all who exercise the elective 
 franchise, should be taught to value our civil institutions. 
 But we say that no sectarian body can do this ; it must 
 be done by all together. If you were to give all this 
 money to the sects, it could not be done — it can only be 
 done by a common system, for if all the sects had this 
 money divided amongst them, there is one half of the 
 community who would not suffer their children to be 
 taught by them. What then is to become of these chil- 
 dren I Our public liberties demand a public universal 
 system of education, and this can only be effected by 
 agents appointed by the State, and answerable to the 
 State; it can never be done if the money be given to any 
 denomination, or divided among all the sects. Sir, we 
 allege this is the broad principle on which the Common 
 Schools are established ; take this away, and you have 
 no right to lay a tax at all; you could not lay a tax with 
 any justice for this purpose. If the money is to be dis- 
 tributed among the different sects and denominations of 
 christians, and they are to use it as they think best, even 
 for their own proselyting purposes — I speak of no parti- 
 cular denomination — all have their preferences and pecu- 
 liar tenets, and all desire to make converts to their belief 
 — I say give the money to this end, and what follows ? 
 Why, that you ought to tax them severally according to 
 what they receive. What right have you to tax Roman 
 Catholics for the support of Methodist Schools 1 or what 
 right have you to tax Methodists for the support of Pres- 
 byterian Schools ] In short, what right have you to tax 
 any sect for the support of the Schools of rival sects'? 
 You have first to ascertain what each requires to support 
 the schools under their care, and then to tax that denomi- 
 nation to the necessary amount. You have no right to 
 tax me as a Methodist, for the Roman Catholic Schools 
 but only on the ground that education is necessary for 
 the preservation of our public liberties and for the public 
 safety. Fall back upon the plan you formerly pursued and 
 you will again hear of complaints among the sects, that they 
 do not receive from the public fund according to what they 
 pay in. Now the Methodists, perhaps, pay much less 
 than some other denominations who are less numerous than 
 themselves. We make it a part of our religion to pay our 
 taxes if we are able ; but we have very little to be taxed 
 at all ; and if we have but little to be taxed, we pay but 
 little ; and yet we could supply more children than some 
 denominations who pay ten times more. Would they 
 then have no right to complain if these Schools were 
 established on sectarian principles instead of public prin- 
 ciples 1 Would not their complaint be just and proper \ 
 It is clear that you could not refute these complaints. 
 And if you concede the prayer of these petitioners, if 
 
 you grant their request in order that you may remove 
 
 their cause of complaint, you destroy the Public School 
 system and you may take your leave of it from that very 
 moment; the whole fabric will crumble into its original 
 elements — it cannot stand. 
 
 But why should this system of public education be 
 abandoned ? Is it to appease the scrupulous consciences 
 of the Catholics 1 The existence of public schools, or of 
 the public school system, cannot affect their consciences, 
 for they are not compelled to send their children to the 
 public schools. Have they then any scruples of con- 
 science about paying taxes for the support of this institu- 
 tion. The Right Reverend gentleman tells you himself 
 they have not, for he tells you they have not complained 
 and do not intend to complain of the appropriation by the 
 Legislature of money raised by taxation to Protestant 
 colleges. If, then, sir, you yield the claims of the Cath- 
 olics, it will not be to their conscientious objections that 
 you yield, but to the alleged injustice of compelling them 
 to contribute to a public benefit, from which they, as a 
 sect, derive no advantage. You must, then, sir, go far- 
 ther ; you must release all from the payment of taxes 
 who cannot conscientiously avail themselves of the ad- 
 vantages offered by the public schools, and this will in- 
 clude most of the large property holders in the city — for 
 these being able to afford it, are bound by parental duty 
 to afford their children a better education than can be 
 given in the public schools. Yet these are not only wil- 
 ling to pay taxes for the support of public schools, but 
 have petitioned the Legislature to tax them for this pur- 
 pose, because they are aware that the education of the 
 poor classes is necessary to the common welfare. 
 
 But sir, I adverted to a foreign Potentate ; and I did 
 say I desired to know where his spiritual authority ceased. 
 And I am the more desirous of knowing this because it 
 is alleged, and the Right Rev. gentleman ought to know, 
 if it be true, that by the oath taken by the dignitaries 
 of that church, they are bound to support a little more 
 than the Pope's spiritual authority. I will make no as- 
 sertion, but I throw it out that the Right Rev. gentleman 
 may say whether his oath of ordination does not bind 
 him to a little more. Sir, I did say, and I emphatically 
 repeat, that it is very desirable his fellow citizens should 
 know where that civil and spiritual authority terminate. 
 I beg pardon for intruding so long upon your attention ; 
 I have gone through our memorial, and that is all we ask. 
 At present I have nothing more to say. 
 
 The Gentlemen who appeared as the representatives of 
 the petitioners and the remonstrants, having now been 
 heard, The President inquired — What is the pleasure of 
 the Board 1 
 
 An Alderman moved that if there were other gentlemen 
 present who desired to be heard, that they be heard ou 
 sending their names to the President ; which was agreed to. 
 
 Dr. Sweeney said that he appeared, with several other 
 gentlemen as a committee from the Catholics, but they 
 withdrew their claim to be heard, as the Right Rev. Bishop 
 Hughes was entitled to a reply. 
 
 Dr. David M. Reese, M. D., (who is a Preacher in the 
 Methodist Episcopal Church) rose and said: 
 
 Mr. President, I avail myself of the permission granted 
 by the board to add a few observations on another branch 
 of the subject which is interesting to us all, to which I 
 desire for a moment only to direct your attention. It ap- 
 pears to me, sir, that neither Romanism, nor Protestantism 
 is on trial here, and the question submitted to this honoura- 
 
3G 
 
 Clc board is not whether the Roman Catholic Church shall 
 
 have the exclusive control of nny portion of the public trea- 
 sure, collected by public luxation fur the purpose of public 
 education — it isnotthi question whethet the Roman Catholic 
 Church shall have it; but the great question in which we 
 are interested as a community is, whether any denomina- 
 tion, — whether any portion ol this great community shall 
 have the exclusive control, though it be but of a single dol- 
 lar, of the money raised by public taxation for the public 
 benefit. I would hope therefore, if I succeed in gaining 
 your attention to the point — to the single point 1 submit to 
 you, to call you for a moment ft cm every consideration of a 
 sectarian aspect. Indeed, I humbly concieve that religious 
 creeds — that sectarian creeds of any kind whatever are not 
 at issue in the present controversy. II this application hud 
 come from Protestants as a body — from any political or 
 religious sect, however numerous, or powerful, or popular 
 they might be, the same objection would lie against the 
 application, from whatever source it might come. I 
 humbly submit therefore, whether the Right Rev. Gentle- 
 man to whom we had the pleasure to listen last night, 
 would not have served the public more effectually by in- 
 structing his people that the opposition to this claim is not 
 an opposition to the Roman Catholics, but to the principle 
 of appropriating money raised by taxation for public pur- 
 poses, to any party whatever, for their exclusive control. 
 I say the Rev. Gentleman would have been serving the 
 public, and would have been doing nothing unworthy of 
 his highly honourable, and sacred office, if he had applied 
 himself to enlightening his people on this point — that 
 the present opposition is not an opposition to their creed 
 or to their church, but that the same opposition would be 
 against any other denomination equally as numerous, and 
 equally as respectable. Certainly, Sir, this would have 
 been more worthy of his sacred office than haranguing his 
 people in their public assemblies for the purpose of exciting 
 prejudices against the Public Schools. Before these preju- 
 dices were created, when these people had not yet been taught 
 to look upon them as odious, the Roman Catholics sent their 
 children to these schools, and availed themselves thankfully 
 of their benefits. But now many of them have abstracted 
 their children, merely because harangues of that kind have 
 been made which are calculated to create disaffection 
 amongst them. Sir, the opposition made to this memorial 
 is neither sectarian nor religious; and this being premised, 
 it is impossible that it can involve a question of conscience 
 at all. What is the question ? It is complained that men 
 having taxed themselves, and having paid that tax, for a 
 given purpose — the public benefit — have afterwards vol- 
 untarily chosen in the exercise of their freedom, in this 
 free country, to forego the benefits provided for the public 
 indiscriminately. All are taxed for public education which 
 is given by the Public Schools ; but a portion of the citizens 
 choose to relinquish the advantages of these schools ; the 
 question then resolves itself into this, is it sound public 
 policy to tax the citizens generally for a public purpose 
 when any portion, on whom the tax is imposed, choose not 
 to avail themselves of its advantages? You see in this 
 aspect that it strikes at the whole Public School System ; 
 for if the Roman Catholics are to be excused because they 
 chose to forego the advantages provided, every other sect, 
 whether for the sake of party politics or religion, might 
 take the same attitude and plead the same conscience, and 
 the result would be that there would be no provision made 
 for public education, and the rising generation in multitudes 
 would grow up like "the wild asses' colt." 
 
 Now in this aspect I humbly submit whether our fellow 
 
 citizens who are found peacefully enjoying their rights and 
 
 liberties in this country, do not receive an equivalent for the 
 
 taxes which the y jay, in the pioper exercise of the right of 
 suffrage which is here secured? Whether they ought not 
 thus to contribute to the political advantages which this 
 happy country furnishes, and whether they do not thus 
 secure an ample equivalent for the taxes which they pay, 
 even in cases where they voluntarily decline to avail them- 
 selves of the Public Schools. But, sir, I know a conscience 
 may be created in this community by a Bishop or other 
 dignitary. Let them but turn their churches into Bear 
 Gardens and agitate their congregations by excitingspeecbes 
 as has been done on this subje ct, and others will be taught 
 to plead their newly excited consciences beside Roman 
 Catholics. And shall this great community be de- 
 prived of this system because such a conscience is cre- 
 ated? But if there can be no conscience in the mat- 
 ter in truth, the point is narrowed down to the ques- 
 tion — Is it a haidship to pay a tax for a public benefit 
 when we thus forego the advantages? Or ought every 
 man who does not avail himself of the advantages which 
 the system furnishes, to be exempted from taxation? We 
 know a disposition tu avoid taxation exists in thousands, 
 and if conscience is to be an excuse, conscience will easily 
 be started to avoid the payment, and the result will be that 
 no public education could, be sustained here or elsewhere. 
 
 As well might the petitioners ask for a separate Alms 
 House or a separate Hospital for their exclusive accommo- 
 dation, and allege the haidship of paying a tax for the sup- 
 port of these public charities, while their consciences would 
 not allow them to take shelter there, in time of adversity; 
 because forsooth, a Protestant Bible is sometimes found 
 there, and a Protestant chaplain sometimes reads a chapter 
 there, for the consolation of the sick and dying. 
 
 Sir, it is the enlightened public policy of our city, slate, 
 and nation, to provide and perpetuate the facilities for edu- 
 cating the entire population in the rudiments of secular 
 learning, and to support these and other public institutions 
 by public taxation. The provision is free for all, and all 
 contribute to its maintainance. But if individuals'among 
 us choose to educate their own children, and refuse to avail 
 themselves of the Public Schools, the act is their own, hut 
 in no wise furnishes them a pretext to complain. Espe- 
 cially, when such individuals establish sectaiian schools, in 
 which with the secular knowledge imparted, their own re- 
 ligious tenets are to be taught; is it not passing strange, 
 that they should wish to impose upon all other religions, 
 the tax of sustaining those schools, in which their own re- 
 ligion is exclusively to be inculcated? 1 care not whether 
 such individuals be Roman Catholics or Protestants, they 
 cannot by possibility possess any right of conscience, which 
 will give them a claim to impose upon any other man's 
 conscience, the burden of supporting their sectarian or ex- 
 clusive schools. Nor can the money raised by public tax- 
 ation to support Public schools, be expended in any other 
 schools than those of strictly public character, which de- 
 nominational schools cannot be in the nature of things. 
 
 The system of the New York Public School society, 
 secures confessedly every desirable facil ty for secular 
 learning, to an extent commensurate with the population. 
 No religious test is required as a qualification for the office 
 of teacher in these schools, and both trustees and teachers 
 are promiscuously taken from all denominations, a number 
 of Roman Catholics being engaged both as trustees and 
 teachers. Great care however is taken to have none em- 
 ployed in these schools as teachers, but persons of good mo- 
 ral character, and while all the peculiarities of doctrinal 
 
3? 
 
 tenets which distinguish and separate Christian churches 
 of every name are excluded, the purcstmorals in which all 
 agree, are taught among the lessons of each day, a chapter 
 in the Bible being read at the opening of the school. The 
 petitioners themselves do not allege any defect in the secu- 
 lar knowledge here taught, nor do they complain that any 
 religious doctrines are inculcated in these schools. But 
 they insist that their consciences will not allow them to 
 sustain such schools, because no religion is taught in them ; 
 and surely they would consent to none being taught, except 
 their own religion, and hence it is for this purpose alone, 
 they have their own schools. It is idle then for the Rt. 
 Rev. Bishop, to repeat his disclaimer of any intention to 
 teach his own religion in his own schools, for in no other 
 way can he make out his plea of conscience, nor can he in 
 any other way make out a single plea against the present 
 excellent system of Public School instruciion. 
 
 I do not design to prolong the discussion, but I feel im- 
 pelled to say what I have said, for I have observed the ex- 
 citement which exists, arising out of the false issue which 
 the Right Rev. gentleman has created, and that hence all 
 the publications on that side of the question in putting forth 
 the claim of the Catholics, have treated it as though the op- 
 position to it was an opposition to Roman Catholics. Sir, 
 I disclaim it. I am not aware that any man in this com- 
 munity opposes it because it is the petition of Roman Ca- 
 tholics, but because it comes from a class of citizens, highly 
 respectable and numerous, I admit, who ask for this money 
 to be placed under their own controul. I am sure those 
 with whom I am associated do not oppose it merely because 
 it comes from Roman Catholics. We believe the Public 
 School Society confers on us, and on this community, an ad- 
 vantage, by the secular instruction of the rising generation. 
 We see daily, multitudes in these schools of children who 
 will soon be introduced on the stage as citizens of this re- 
 public, and it is vastly important that they should be 
 educated and qualified for the discharge of the im- 
 portant duties of freemen. This Public School Sys- 
 tem is preparing them for that purpose ; it is attracting the 
 attention of public men of other countries; these Schools 
 are regarded as the nurseries of intelligent freemen, who 
 will hereafter have to take the guardianship of the liberties 
 of this country: we are training up thousands of citizens, 
 not only for New York, but for the We^t; — New York- 
 contributes much to the population of this nation, and the 
 power lies with this Board of Aldermen to direct their 
 training so as to make them useful to their country. But 
 there comes a petition, from a body highly respectable, I 
 admit, who ask, " Let us have this money which is collect- 
 ed for a public purpose and we will apply it to a private 
 one." I know they disclaim sectarian views, if the money 
 is obtained; but if their views are not sectarian they 
 can find no valid objection, nor make no improvement to 
 the existing system of Public Schools. It is immeasura- 
 bly important that the present system should be support- 
 ed ; the gentlemen to whom the Schools are now entrusted 
 have shown themselves amply qualified to discharge their 
 duties, and I hope any attempt to destroy the present system 
 will be frowned down, whether it be made by Catholic, or 
 Protestant, Christian, or Infidel. 
 
 The Rev. Dr. Knox, of the Dutch Reformed Church, 
 said, — 
 
 Mr. President, — I should not have risen to claim your 
 indulgence for a single moment were it not to say that the 
 christian denomination with which I am connected, in their 
 united sentiment are adverse to the prayer of the memorial 
 now before you; and that they would, unquestionably, have 
 
 been here with a counter memorial, if they had not cherish- 
 ed a confidence, that, in the hands of this Corporation, the 
 matter is perfectly safe. Sir, I regard the subject now be- 
 fore this honourable body as one of most momentous im- 
 portance. The principle on which our government is es- 
 tablished is of a character to exclude all immediate con- 
 nexion, on the part of our government, with religious things. 
 All religion is fully tolerated, fully protected, and then it 
 is left alone, and there I hope it will continue to be. It is 
 not profaned by the contact of civil enactments — we have 
 never heard of any " act of uniformity," to set a whole com- 
 munity by the ears. Sir, this principle, in this State, is 
 guarded with most peculiar jealousy: there is not a minis- 
 ter of religion that can even be appointed as the Superin- 
 tendent of a Common School, or be eligible to any civil 
 office. Whe ther it is an innovation on our natural rights, 
 I will not undertake to inquire, but with the existence of 
 such enactments I feel perfectly satisfied. Let it so be. In- 
 terrupt this state of things and whither will it lead? Who 
 can foretell to what it may lead ? The denomination with 
 which it is my honour and happiness to be connected, was 
 the fust to introduce the Gospel of Salvation to these 
 shores — individuals of this communion laid the founda- 
 tions of this city, — they embraced a large portion of 
 the population of the State, and bear a large part of its 
 burdens; and I know that the feeling of this part of 
 our population is unanimously in favour of leaving matters 
 as they are. As a demonstration that they are disinterest- 
 ed, the particular church which I serve has sustained a 
 charity school more than a century ; it sustains it still from 
 the private charity of Christians; and they never received 
 aid from the State, except for a few years, a few dollars for 
 each child, during the operation of the law referred to last 
 evening. 
 
 Now, personally, in reference to our Roman Catholic 
 friends, my feelings are entirely kind. I have not any 
 other feeling. I am not a man of strife. But this matter 
 would not be quietly submitted to. Were any denomina- 
 tion, existing among us, to put forth such a claim as is now 
 before this Board — were the Presbyterians to do it, we 
 would not regard it as right. Were the Episcopalians, or 
 the Methodists, to do it, we should not deem it right. In 
 any case, we should not feel content to contribute to the ge- 
 neral treasury of the State, if a portion of that treasury were 
 to be taken hold upon by a particular denomination. — 
 Whilst the whole spirit of our government, whether gene- 
 ral or State, frowns upon anything that looks like elevating 
 one section of the Christian community, in preference to 
 another, it would not be kindly regarded if the prayer of 
 this petition were complied with, and a distinction were 
 conferred on one and not on others. But while I say that 
 I feel kindness towards our Roman Catholic friends, can- 
 dour would require me to go a little further than many 
 have gone who have addressed you. 
 
 With reference to the system of religion by which they 
 arc distinguished, I cannot help regarding it as differing 
 from others: they so regard it. It is exclusive; and they 
 claim for it immutability and infallibility. Sir, can Pro- 
 testants, believing as they do believe, consent to be directly 
 instrumental in elevating to strength, and in cherishing a 
 system like this? I think not. I think the citizens of this 
 State will say it ought not to be. 
 
 Mr. President, for myself, I wish our Catholic fellow- 
 citizens to enjoy all the immunities that arc enjoyed by any 
 others ; but with that I wish them to rest content. I have 
 sought carefully, and according to my best ability, during 
 this discussion and previously, to ascertain what is the pre- 
 
38 
 
 cise ground of their dissatisfaction, and I confess I am not 
 instructed yet. We are told that in these Common Schools 
 religion is not taught; and in juxtaposition we are told that 
 the Bible is read. Now, with regard to the administration 
 of those schools, we have had abundant testimony both 
 here and elsewhere, that they are conducted with extreme 
 — with the]very utmost care. Is disobedience to parents 
 taught there? Are they taught to falsify the truth? or to 
 do a wrong thing? On the contrary, are they not in- 
 structed in tho common fundamental principles of morals, 
 while they are taught to read and write and to discharge 
 the duty of citizens when they arrive at maturity? The Bi- 
 ble is read, as it ought to be; and occasionally passages 
 have been found in tho books, admitted into the libraries, 
 which are offensive to the feelings of Citholic3. These 
 have been expurgated as soon as detected in every instance 
 that I am aware of. But is this a sufficient reason for so 
 great a change? Can you, or any gcntlemin who is in 
 the habit of reading, for a single week or day, be perfectly 
 sure that even when reading works of a select kind you 
 shall not find something that may not be consonant with 
 your feelings? But let it be overlooked and passed by. Do 
 these schools interfere with our religious instruction of our 
 children? Do they take them away from the parent, or 
 the pastor, or from the Sabbath School? Are they con- 
 ducted by individuals of the same faith ? I believe not. I 
 am not able to find a just cause of complaint. 
 
 I have but a single remark more, for I have observed 
 tic great patience, with which this honourable Council 
 has sat to hear the remarks of gentleman both yesterday 
 and to day, and I am unwilling to occupy more than 
 another moment of their time on a single point. The gen- 
 tleman who first addressed you yesterday afternoon, 
 throughout the whole of his exceedingly able and eloquent 
 address, laboured this one point, to endeavour to produce 
 an impression on the minds of this Common Council that a 
 false issue had been started — that they do not want the pub- 
 lic money to aid them in communicating religious instruc- 
 tion. Why, Mr. President, it is strange that this single 
 idea was not lost sight of during that long, able, and elo- 
 quent address of more than two hours' duration. But, sir, 
 ifthev are willing to pledge themselves to give no religious 
 instruction in their schools, why not allow their children 
 to go to the common schools during school hours, and after- 
 wards give them religous education ? I confess, I do not 
 know how this can be so. The only answer I can myself 
 imagine is this, that upon the whole there is an influence 
 exerted by a contact with the children in these schools, 
 adverse to feelings of reverence for Catholic peculiarities. 
 That must be it. Well, now is it so? Sir my children 
 are exposed by mingling with the community, to things 
 which are adverse to their feelings — if you chose, their 
 prejudices ; they may,at the same time meet with things 
 which reflect on their family, and on their associations — 
 their religious associations and their other'associations 
 too,— does that weaken their attachment to those associa- 
 tions ? No it strengthens them. They at once say those 
 persons don't think as I do, they don't feel as I do. We 
 may be taunted about our pastors or our faith ; does that 
 lesson our attachment to them ? I think not. We think 
 we are right and they are wrong, and Ave let it pass. Sir 
 I repeat, though I am not delegated to attend here to tell 
 it, that these sentiments pervade the denomination which 
 I represent, and with the expression of that fact I will re- 
 tire, and not trouble the board any longer. 
 
 The Rev. Dr. Bangs, of the Methodist Episcopal 
 Church, said — 
 
 Sir, — I avail myself of the liberty which your resolution 
 
 gives m3,to mike one or two remarks. It might be in- 
 ferred by soim, from thi position we occupy here, that we 
 a;)j)3ar lure as a sect to vindicate our sectarian principles 
 and rights. Now if such an imoression should have ex- 
 isted 1 wish to correct it. We appear here simply, with 
 the rest of oar fellow-citizens, for the purpose of opposing 
 whit we conceive to be an unjust application. We have 
 nothing to ask for. We do not ask for a portion of the 
 public money to enable us to educate our children. The 
 tim9 was when the Methodist Episcopal Church had 
 a flourishing Chirity School which they supported for 
 upwards of forty years without a cent from the public 
 distribute a portion iu the city of New-York amoii" the 
 fund ; but when the legislature of the State concluded to 
 charity schools, we received our proportion, and at the first, 
 when a motion was mide to take it out of the hands of 
 charity schools and give it to the Public Schools we did re- 
 monstrate with others. But we are very glad to say that 
 since we have seen the system in operation and viewed its 
 blessed effects on the minds of our children and the com- 
 munity wo joyfully acquiesce in the decision of the Com- 
 mon Council on that subject. There is one objection 
 mide to this system which somewhat surprised me. It 
 was stated, if I did not misunderstand it, that by taking 
 these children and sending them to these schools they are 
 taken out of the hands of their parents and delivered over 
 to tho hands of the public officer of the State. Why, Sir, 
 this is very extraordinary. Suppose our brethren of tha 
 Romm Catholic Church established their schools, for they 
 have them, I suppose, do they not take their children, 
 during school hours, from the hands of their parents? 
 Are they not for the time being taken out of the domes- 
 tic circle, and delivered over to the hands of the public 
 teacher? And does not every father and mother, when 
 they resign their children to a school, an academy, or a 
 college, deliver them out of their hands for the time 
 being f But, sir, the sending of children to public 
 schools in this city, is not taking them out of the hands 
 of the domestic government ; the schools are established 
 in the midst of us; we can send our children to them 
 and they are only absent from us about six hours, and 
 the rest of the time they are with us How, then, pray 
 tell me, have these schools invaded the authority of the 
 father and mother? There is another point. If I did 
 not misunderstand the senior pastor of the Roman Cath- 
 olic Church, he told us that the instruction in these 
 schools tended to infidelity. He disclaimed any inten- 
 tion to charge this upon the principles of the managers 
 of that institution, but he said the system itself tended 
 to infidelity. Now, sir, what is thegrea>t bulwark against 
 Infidelity '. Is it not the Bible, sir '. What are all the 
 commentaries, what are all the dissertations that wera 
 ever written, even the most learned, in comparison with 
 the Bible ? Are we to suppose that any human teaching 
 in the Roman Catholic schools will be paramount to the 
 Bible in checking the overflowings of Infidelity ? Would 
 I trust myself or my denomination in preference to the 
 Bible 1 No, sir. The Bible contains its own evidence 
 of its own truth ; it reflects its own light, unobscured 
 by the. commentaries of feeble man ; and are we to be 
 told that the Holy Scriptures without note and comment 
 will lead to Infidelity ? If I mistake not, one of the Trus- 
 tees told us that the Holy Scriptures were read every 
 day, and that the children were taught that God made 
 them, and that he saw llu ir thoughts, words, and actions, 
 and these we know are the Prut principles of revealed 
 
33 
 
 religion, in opposition to sectarianism ; and in all this 
 what testimony have we that these schools tend to Infi- 
 delity ? For what shall we change the Bible, the Holy 
 Book of God which announces divine truths to man ! 
 Shall we exchange this Bible for the teaching of the Ro- 
 man Catholic school master? Which is the best adapt- 
 ed to stem the flood of Infidelity? But they don't de- 
 sign to teach sectarianism ! What then? 1 rejoice to 
 be able to say here, and I believe the Right Rev. gentle- 
 man will join with me|in saying, that he believes in one 
 God, in one Saviour, in the Holy Ghost, the forgiveness 
 of sins, the regeneration of the heart by the Holy Spirit, 
 justification by faith, and in a future clay of judgment. I 
 believe he will join with me, or any one else, in the be- 
 lief of these truths. Are they not the truths of the Bi- 
 ble? And may not these truths be taught our children 1 
 Are they not taught in Roman Catholic schools ? What, 
 then, do they desire to teach ? Why, the peculiarities 
 of their system, and nothing else, for all these leading 
 truths are taught in the Bible. He wants something, I pre- 
 sume, that is not in the Bible, for the Bible is taught 
 there, and if anything else is to be taught that is not in 
 the school, it must be something that is not in the Bible, 
 and therefore it must be sectarian. Now we have ar- 
 rived at an age in our Republic when we see the different 
 sects and denominations, though they may not agree in 
 all things, agreeing in all leading points — on these we 
 can meet and unite, and strengthen each ethers hands to 
 do good in our day and generation. We therefore, as a 
 denomination, unite with our brethren of other denomi- 
 tions, and those of no denomination, or, in other words, 
 with the representatives of every Society, to say, let this 
 fund be appropriated as it was intended to be, and let all 
 share alike in the education of the rising generation. For 
 myself, I could go still farther than has been gone, and 
 say that these little vagrants that are suffered io stroll 
 about the streets and spend their time in idleness, I would 
 compel to enter these schools, and I believe it would be 
 an act of humanity, if their parents were so indifferent to 
 the welfare of their children that they allowed them to 
 spend their time in idleness, or something worse. Let 
 the State extend the hand of compassion, and take them 
 out of the streets to be taught, where they will be saved 
 from vicious indigencies ; and I hope the time will yet 
 come when it will be done. 
 
 The Rev. Dr. Spring of the Brick (Presbyterian) 
 church, said, Mr. President, as much time has been 
 consumed, as this question has been abundantly discus- 
 sed, and with great ability, especially by the learned 
 counsel ; had I not been urged to say a word on behalf 
 of the Presbyterian church, I should not have claimed 
 your attention. I am not authorized by the Presbyterian 
 Church, as a church, to attend here ; but if I had, I 
 would have paid more particular attention to the subject 
 than I have done. I can say with my worthy brother of 
 the Dutch Reformed Church, that the sentiment of the 
 church at large with which I am connected, is one of 
 entire unanimity of ardent and cordial opposition to the 
 petition which is now 'before you from the Roman Ca- 
 tholic church. I will state Sir, but a single fact, without 
 recapitulating the valuable remarks of the other gentle- 
 men, which has rested on my mind and may have some 
 weight in the bosom of some gentlemen with whom the de- 
 cision rests. In the providence of God, Sir, having been 
 more than thirty years in this city, I have had opportuni- 
 ties of watching the progress of the Public School So- 
 ciety, and of knowing some of its history in that period 
 
 of time. When it was separated from the churches, as 
 
 such and assumed its present shape, it was asolemn matter 
 of compromise and eontract on the part of the corporation 
 and the Public School Society, 1 do not say it was a 
 contract in writing, but this was the understanding of all 
 our churches : W e were solicited to give up our rights 
 and denominational feelings, to which we were strongly 
 attached, that this large scheme might go into operation 
 and spread its influence over the community ; and the al- 
 ternative with us was whether we should oppose that 
 great scheme, and continue the pilfering which had been 
 detected in one Society with its unpleasant attendant con- 
 sequences, or aid the Public School plan. And we sacri- 
 ficed our feelings for the general good on the sacred un- 
 derstanding that the system should be continued ; and we 
 shall consider it a violation of good faith if you grant this 
 application. I can unite with some of my friends who 
 have preceded me, in saying that if this application had 
 come from any other denomination, I would have oppo- 
 sed it ; but I cannot say that I have no greater opposition 
 to it because it comes from my Catholic friends ; I do 
 view it with more alarm on account of the source from 
 which it comes. And any man who looks at the history 
 of the Catholic church, whether in or out of power, and 
 finds she has ever been, and in those parts of Europe 
 where she remains in power, she continues to be almost 
 uniformly the enemy of liberty, will look upon this ap- 
 plicstion with suspicion and fear. I do so not only as an 
 American but as a Christian, as a Protestant, and as a 
 Presbyterian. The gentleman has sought to prove that 
 the present system leads to infidelity. Now, Sir, let no 
 man think it strange that I should prefer even infidelity 
 to Catholicism. Even a mind as acute as Voltaire's, 
 came to the conclusion that if there was no alternative be- 
 tween infidelity and the dogmas of the Catholic church, 
 he should choose infidelity. I would choose, Sir, in simi- 
 lar circumstances to be an infidel to-morrow. 
 
 Mr. President, my worthy father, I would call him 
 brother, for my hairs are almost as grey as his, has well 
 said that the great barrier to infidelity is the Bible. But 
 Sir, the Right Rev. Gentleman told us yesterday he 
 had no confidence in the Protestant Bible ; and yet you 
 heard him, when he came to a community of Protestant 
 citizens, ask for the bounty of the State to support such 
 a system as his ! With you, Gentlemen, the power re- 
 mains. I need not now after what has been said, indeed 
 this would not be the proper place, urge any arguments 
 at length on this subject, and therefore, I will not further 
 trespass on your time ; nor need I scarcely ask pardon 
 for detaining you so long, having been myself urged to 
 say something on behalf of the church with which I am 
 connected. 
 
 The President said the closing remarks would be 
 given to the petitioners. 
 
 Mr. Ketcham observed, that if any new matter were 
 introduced, he hoped he should have the opportunity to 
 reply. The Right Rev. Gentleman opened on the part of 
 the petitioners ; he had been replied to, and it was but 
 right that he should have the right to reply to the other 
 speakers ; but if he urged new matter either of fact or 
 argument, he, on the part of the School Society, should 
 claim the right to reply to that new matter. 
 
 The President called upon the right Rev. Dr Hughes 
 to conclude the debate. 
 
 The Right Rev. Bishop Hughes then rose to reply to 
 the arguments of all the gentlemen who had been heard on 
 the subject, and he spoke nearly as follows : — ■ 
 
AO 
 
 Mr. President, it would require a mind of much greater 
 capacity than mine to arrange and mature! the topics, rele- 
 vant or otherwise, that have been introduced into this dis- 
 cussion since I had the honour to address you yesterday. 
 No less than seven or eight gentlemen of great ability have 
 presented their respective views on the subject, and not only 
 on the subject in regard to its intrinsic merits, but on sub- 
 jects which they deemed at least collateral, but which I 
 think quite irrelevant. The gentleman who last addressed 
 you (Dr. Spring,) is entitled to my acknowledgments for 
 the candour with which he expressed his sentiments in re- 
 ference to it, namely, that he was opposed to it more because 
 it came from Catholics than if it had been presented by any 
 other denomination. That gentleman is entitled to my 
 acknowledgment, and I award it, if worthy of his accept- 
 ance. The subject— for it is exceedingly important that 
 the subject should be kept in view— is one, as I stated 
 before, that is very simple. We are a portion of this 
 community ; we desire to be nothing greater than any 
 other portion ; we are not content to lie made less. There 
 is nothing, sir, in that system of the Public School Socie- 
 ty against which any of the gentlemen who have spoken, 
 either in their individual capacity or as the representatives 
 of bodies of people, have urged a single conscientious ob- 
 jection, and of course they have no right to complain— 
 they are satisfied, and therefore I am willing that they 
 should have the system, but I am not willing that they 
 should press it upon me, and for good reason. And, sir, 
 if this honourable body rejects the claim of your petition- 
 ers, what is the issue ? That we are deprived of the be- 
 nefits to which we are entitled, and that we are not one 
 iota worse than we were before. That is our consolation. 
 But the whole range of the argument of the gentleman 
 who spoke last was to show that this Public School Sys- 
 tem was got up with the concurrence of public opinion, 
 and that having been so got up, it had worked beautifully, 
 and that gentlemen, who never heard of conscientious ob- 
 jections to it, because it suits their views, deem it won- 
 derful that we can have any conscience at all on the sub- 
 ject, That is the amount of it. What ! no ground for 
 conscientious objection, when you teach our children in 
 those schools that " the deceitful Catholics" burned John 
 Huss at the stake, for conscience, when evidences are 
 numerous before you of a more just and a more honoura- 
 ble character— when you might find on the page of his- 
 tory, that in Catholic Poland every avenue to dignity in 
 the state was opened to Protestants, by the concurrent vote 
 of eight Catholic Bishops, whilst the vote of any one of them 
 according to the constitution of the Polish Diet, of which 
 they were members, could have prevented the law being 
 passe a_ and what is more, when the first lesson of uni- 
 versal toleration and freedom of conscience the world was 
 ever called to learn, was set by the Catholics of Maryland 
 — I speak in the presence of gentlemen who can contra- 
 dict me if they know where to find the authority — and 
 what was this but homage to the majesty of conscience by 
 a Church which they wish to establish as a persecuting 
 Church. That Church, sir, which the gentleman has 
 come here to prove justifies the murdering of hererics, was 
 the first to teach a lesson which Protestants have been 
 slow to learn, and imitate but which the religion they 
 profess should have taught them. But not these examples 
 alone ; there are hundreds more. At this day in Bel- 
 «ium, where Protestants are in a minority of one to twelve, 
 the state votes them an equal portion, and where their 
 clergy are married, a larger portion, and that with the con- 
 currence of the Council and the Catholic Bishops. The 
 
 gentleman need not tell me of Catholicism ; I know it 
 well ; and what is more, I know Protestantism well ; and 
 I know the professions of good will of Protestants do not 
 always correspond with their feelings. But I should like 
 to know whether or not in Protestantism they find autho- 
 rity for persecuting to the knife, not Catholics alone, but 
 each other, even after they have proclaimed the right of 
 every man to think for himself. With good reason sir, do 
 I contend for conscience, but they may think a Catholic 
 has no right to have a conscience at all. They may think 
 because this system is beautiful in their view, that this 
 pretension to conscience on the part of Catholics ought to 
 be stifled, as a thing not to be admitted at all. But that 
 will not do. Man in this country has a right to the exer- 
 cise of conscience, and the man that should raise himself 
 up against it will find that he has raised himself up against 
 a tremendous opponent. Now, what is it we ask ? You 
 have heard from beginning to end the arguments on this 
 occasion, and though I may not follow the wanderings of 
 this discussion through all its minute parts, if I pass over 
 any part, be assured it is not from any desire to avoid 
 or any inability to refute what has been said against 
 us. I may pass over many points, but I will not 
 pass over any great principle, and you have, no doubt, 
 given so much attention to the subject as to enable 
 you, if I should not recapitulate the whole, to decide just- 
 ly. It has been urged, that if you give Catholics that 
 which they now ask, you will give them benefits which 
 will elevate them above others ; but, I contend most sin- 
 cerely, and most conscientiously, that we have no such 
 idea ; and when you shall have granted the portion we 
 claim, if you should be pleased to grant it, I conceive then, 
 and not before, shall we be in the enjoyment of the pro- 
 tection, and not privilege, to which we are entitled. 
 That is my view of the subject ; but, I have been aston- 
 ished to perceive the course of argument of the gentlemen 
 who oppose our claim, generally speaking. What it is 
 they contend for I cannot determine ; but, it seems to be 
 the preservation of the existing system. They were 
 among the first to disclaim the doctrine that the end justi- 
 fies the means, and if in attaining their end they find they 
 cannot reach it without injustice, then as conscientious 
 and high-minded men, they should have paused by the 
 way, and have ascertained whether the means were 
 worthy of them and of our glorious country. Yet, sir, 
 they have generally overlooked this, and it is no new thing 
 to find that they have laboured to promote the benefit of their 
 own society at the sacrifice of the rights of others. Sir, 
 it is the glory of this country that when it is found that a 
 wron<* exists, there is a power, an irresistable power, to 
 correct the wrong. They have represented us as con- 
 tending to bring the Catholic Scriptures into the Public 
 Schools. This is not true ; but, I shall have occasion 
 to refer more particularly to this by and bye. They 
 have represented us as enemies to the Protestant Scrip- 
 tures " without note and comment," and on this subject 
 I know not whether their intention was to make an 
 impression on your honorable body, or to elicit a sym- 
 pathetic echo elsewhere ; but, whatever their object was, 
 they have represented that even here Catholics have 
 not concealed their enmity to the Scriptures. Now, if 
 I had asked this honorable board to exclude the Protes- 
 tant Scriptures from the Schools, then there might have 
 been some coloring for the current calumny. But I have 
 not done so. I say, gentlemen of every denomination, 
 keep the scriptures vou reverence, but do not force on me 
 that which my conscience tells me is wrong. I may be 
 
41 
 
 wrong, as you may be ; and as you exercise your judg- 
 ment be pleased to allow the same privilege to a fellow 
 being who must appear before our common God and an- 
 swer for the exercise of it. I wish to do nothing like 
 what is charged upon me — that is not the purpose for 
 which, we petition this honorable board in the name of the 
 community to which I belong : 1 appear here for other 
 objects, and if our petition be granted our Schools may be 
 placed under the supervision of the public authorities, or 
 even of commissioners to be appointed by the Public 
 School Society ; they may be put under the same super- 
 vision as the existing Schools to see that none of those 
 phantoms, nor any grounds for those suspicions which 
 are as uncharitable as unfounded, can have existence in 
 reality. There is then but one simple question — will you 
 compel us to pay a tax from which we can receive no 
 benefit, and to frequent schools which injure and destroy 
 our religious rights in the minds of our children, and of 
 which in our consciences we cannot approve ? That is 
 the simple question. Or, will you appoint some other sys- 
 tem, or will you leave the children of our denomination to 
 grow up in that state of ignorance which the School Society 
 has expressed its desire to save them from. Or shall the 
 constable be employed, as one rev. gentleman seems lo re- 
 commend (Dr. Bangs) or some public officer to catch them 
 and send them to school, for from this moment in conse- 
 quence of the language used, and the insulting passages 
 which those books contain, Catholic parents will not send 
 their children there, and any attempts to enforce attendance 
 would meet with vigorous resistence from them. 1 have 
 now presented what is in reality the simple issue ; it is 
 no matter whether we believe right or not, for neither the 
 Catholic nor the Protestant religion is on trial here ; and 
 I repeat, therefore, that the gentleman who represents the 
 Methodist Church has taken so much pains to distil 
 through the minds of this meeting, a mass of prejudice 
 which it will take several hours, but at the same time very 
 little beside, for me to refute and scatter to the winds. I 
 shall perhaps not dwell long on that part, because I judge 
 it is irrelevant, to the case in hand, but still 1 shall feel 
 authorized to trespass on the patience of the meeting a 
 short time, though but a short time to remove the im- 
 proper prejudice which may have been created. 
 
 Now I start again with a statement of the question as I 
 did the other day, and notwithstanding all the learning, 
 theological, legal, medical, and 1 know not what beside, 
 which has been employed to oppose our position, and al- 
 though I have had to meet so many able gentlemen who 
 have been accustomed to public speaking, I rise in the 
 proud consciousness that not a solitary principle laid 
 down by me, or laid down in that petition has been re 
 futed. 1 see the question stand precisely where it did 
 before the gentlemen began to speak, and I see the same 
 false issue ; and 1 challenge any gentleman to say that 
 it is not a false issue — persevered in to this very hour, so 
 that our argument has not been moved one iota ; there 
 must therefore be something powerful in our plain, unso- 
 phisticated, simple, statement, when all the reasoning 
 brought against it leaves it just where it was before. 
 
 I shall now take the gentlemen in order, and follow 
 them according to the notes which I have taken and my 
 recollection of their arguments, and I may possibly have 
 some difficulty in avoiding a discursive reply. The first 
 gentleman (Mr. Sedgwick) who spoke, took up this view, 
 
 that if this system is wrong it ought to be overturned en- 
 tirely. That 1 leave to the judgment of those with whom 
 the confidence of the people has deposited the authority. 
 He says that the people have a right to interfere and to 
 give to the children of the State an intellectual education, 
 that this must be carried out in some form or other, and 
 that this system is as little objet tionable as any that could 
 be presented. That may be — I do not dispute the possf 
 bility of it, because it is unimportant ; but if he did mea 
 to contend that that system which has been once sanctk*. 
 ed must continue to be sanctioned, although its sanction 
 was merely by the tacit consent of the different denomi- 
 nations, and although it should become violative of the reli- 
 gious rights of any, then he goes beyond the limits which 
 even the constitution of the land have made sacred. I have 
 been represented as endeavoring to create excitement on this 
 subject. To that I shall refer immediately ; but I may 
 here refer to my objection to the existing system, on the 
 ground that it has a tendency to Infidelity, and may ob- 
 serve that I know clergymen of other denominations who 
 are also opposed to it on the ground of its Infidel tenden- 
 cy. There are many who have the conviction that it 
 tends to Infidelity, and who know that the preventive re- 
 ferred to is not equal to stem the tendency to Infidelity 
 which does exist. 
 
 The first gentleman who spoke, and he spoke with a 
 frankness and sincerity for which I give him credit, con- 
 tended — and when I answer his objection I wish to be 
 understood as speaking to all that took up that objection — 
 and it was urged more or less by the whole — that it was 
 inconsistent to charge upon the system a tendency to in- 
 fidelity, and then a teaching of religion and that this teach- 
 ing was anti-catholic. Now this would be inconsistent 
 under some circumstances ; but the gentleman left out 
 the grounds on which that charge was made, and it will be 
 proper therefore that I should state those grounds. In 
 the document which emanated from the Board of Assis- 
 tants last spring, they say, that the smallest particle of re- 
 ligion is a disqualification, and that " Religious instruction 
 is no part of a common school education." Now was it 
 the intention of your honourable body to exclude all reli- 
 gion 1 Was it the intention of the State Legislature ? 
 Did any public authority requird that the public school 
 education should be winnowed as corn on a barn floor, 
 and all religion driven out by the winds of heaven as chaff 
 not worthy to be preserved ? Was there such authority ? 
 Who made such a decision ? And yet that very decision, 
 I ask you, if we are not authorized to interpret as proof of 
 the charge, that the system has a tendency to infidelity ? 
 For, banish religion, and infidelity alone remains. And 
 on the other hrnd, we find the gentlemen of the Public 
 School Society themselves repeatedly stating that .they 
 inculcate religion, and give religious impressions ; and I 
 say it does them credit, for as far as they can they ought 
 to teach religion. It would be better if they did for those 
 who are satisfied with their relgious teaching. This ex- 
 planation will set us right in the minds of your honourable 
 body. It is first said, no religion is taught, and then it is 
 admitted that religion is inculcated ; and next our petition 
 is opposed because it is alleged that if our prayer be 
 granted religion will be taught. What weight then is the 
 objection of the Public School Society entitled to if this 
 be the fact ? And where is our inconsistency ? If there 
 is a dilemma to whom are we indebted for it but to the 
 
42 
 
 Report of the Board of Assistants on the one hand, and to 
 the testimony of the Public School Society on the other ? 
 Let us not then he charged with inconsistency. 
 
 Now sir, I contend there is infidelity taught. I do not 
 mean in its gross form ; but I have found principles of infe- 
 riority in the books — and one that would pass current as a very 
 amiablcbook — a religious lesson which I would not Sutler a 
 child to read, over whom I had any influence. The lesson 
 represents a father and his son going about on Sunday 
 morning to the different churches, the little hoy asking 
 questions as they pass along from one to the other ; at last 
 the boy said to his father — I may not quote the words but 
 I shall be found right in substance — "What is the reason 
 there are so many different sects ? Why do not all people 
 agree to go to the same place, and to worship God in the 
 same way?" And why should it not be so, replied the 
 father. Why should they agree? Do not people 
 differ in other things ? Do they not differ in their taste 
 and their dress — some like their coats cut one- way and 
 some another — and do they not differ in their appetites 
 and food ? and in the hours they keep and in their diver- 
 sion ?" Now I ask if there is no infidelity in that ? I 
 ask if it is a proper lesson to teach children that as they 
 have a right to form their own tastes for dress and food, 
 they have the right to judge for themselves in matters of 
 religion, for, with deference to the Public School Society, 
 children are too young to have such principles instilled 
 into them. Let them grow up before they are left to ex- 
 ercise their judgment in such weighty matters — at least do 
 not teach Catholic children such a lesson at so early an 
 age ; and in all I have said, I desire to be understood as 
 abstaining most carefully from prescribing any rule or 
 method, or book, for any denomination with which I am 
 not connected. But for Catholic children, I speak, and I 
 say, it is too early for them to judge for themselves. And 
 is this all ? No sir ; one other passage, and for that there 
 may perhaps be something to be said as to its defence be- 
 cause it is from the pen of an eminent Protestant Divine, 
 the Bishop of London. I presume the Bishop of London 
 when he wrote that passage must have been writing on 
 some subject connected with Infidelity — he must have 
 been writing against Infidelity, and indulging in a range 
 of argument which nii^ht be proper for such a sub- 
 ject, but out of place in the hands of common school chil- 
 dren. What was that passage ? Why it is one which 
 represents the Divine Redeemer as a man of respectable 
 talents. 
 
 Mr. Ketchum rose, and intimated his doubt of such a 
 passage being in the books. 
 
 The Right Rev. Prelate continued. I have read it in 
 their books, but the trustees have recalled them, I hope 
 not for the^ purpose of depriving me of the opportunity 
 of quoting the page. Such a lesson is now to be 
 found in one of the books which represents the Divine 
 Redeemer as showing uncommon quickness of pene- 
 tration, and sagacity. I ask whether such a lesson is 
 a proper one for children, and whether such is the instruc- 
 tion to be given to them of the Redeemer of the world ? 
 The gentleman who first spoke, said it was not in reality 
 religion that was taught but mere morality that was incul- 
 cated, — the propriety of telling the truth and of fulfilling 
 all moral duties. If this be true it is still strange that the 
 School Society should prefer the word '• religious." He 
 did not deny that it was a kind of religion, and that the 
 precepts of the Decalogue were inculcated, and while 
 
 the Public School Society admit that religion is inculcated 
 
 and the h eal Gentleman, iheir representee, does not dis- 
 claim it so far as it forms the ground work of a good moral 
 character, it may be taken as admitted. And now, if they 
 teach religion let us know what it is to be. Let them not 
 delegate to the leathers, some of whom may teach one 
 religion, some another, ihe authority or permission to 
 make " religious impressions," to give "religious instruc- 
 tion," to give a '•' right direction to the mind of youth," and 
 all the oilier phrases which we find in their documents. 
 Now on the subject of religion and morals, would they teach 
 morals without religion, which I conceive will be found 
 as visionary as castle building in the air. Mr. Ketchum 
 says they arc taught not to lie, but without religion 
 he furni.-hes no motive for not lying. If a man tells 
 me not to lie, when it is my interest to lie, I as a rational 
 being want a motive for telling the truth. My love of 
 gain tells me if 1 lie and lie successfully it will add to my 
 fortune ; and if I am told to abstain from lying at the risk 
 of my fortune, let me have a reason. But if I am told 
 there is God to whom I am accountable, that is a motive, 
 but then, it is a teaching of religion. Yes sir, when 1 am 
 told there is a Cod I am taught religion, and thereto* I 
 am astonished that the Report which has gone forth fiom 
 the other Hoard should declare that the smallest teaching of 
 religion vitiates the claim. You may as well think to build 
 an edifice without a foundation as to pretend to produce 
 moral effects without religious belief. 
 
 There may not be the details of religion but there must 
 be the principle to a certain extent, otherwise you cannot 
 lay the foundation of good morals for men. Now sir, I 
 will show you that Mr. Stephen Girard of Philadelphia, 
 who had no religious belief whatever, in his Will by which 
 he bequeathed large sums of money for the purpose of 
 procuring great and material benefits to society ; but which 
 has been looked upon by many Christians of every denom- 
 ination in Philadelphia rather as a curse lhan a blessing, — 
 even he speaks of morality without religion nearly as the 
 Public School Society does — He says : 
 
 " Secondly I enjoin and require that no ecclesiastic, 
 missionary, or minister of any sect whatsoever, shall ever 
 hold or exercise any station or duty whatsoever in the said 
 College ; nor shall any such person ever be admitted for 
 any purpose, or as a visitor, within the premises appro- 
 priated to the purposes of the said College ; on making 
 this restriction, I do not mean to cast any reflection upon 
 any sect or person whatsoever ; but as there is such a 
 multitude of sects, and such a diversity of opinion amongst 
 them, 1 desire to keep the tender minds of the orphans, who 
 are to derive advantage from this bequest, free from the 
 excitement which clashing doctrines and sectarian con- 
 troversy are so likely to produce. My desire is, that all 
 the instructors and teachers in the college shall take pains 
 to instil into the minds of the scholars the purest princi- 
 ples of morality, so that, on their entrance into active life, 
 they may, from inclination and habit, evince benevolence 
 towards their fellow creatures, and a love of truth, sobrie- 
 ty, and industry ; adopting, at the same time, such reli- 
 gious tenets as their matured reason may enable them to 
 prefer.' 1 
 
 That, sir, is the policy of Mr. Girard, who had no belief 
 that was known to others. That was the policy of a 
 man who, so far as was known, was as much a sceptic as 
 Voltaire or Rousseau. He, by his bounty of two millions 
 
13 
 
 of dollars to the city of Philadelphia, provided that poor 
 orphans should be brought up to respect infidelity. He 
 did not say a word against religion, but he took care to 
 stand by, not personally, but. by his executors, in his will, 
 to prevent its precepts being inculcated in the minds of 
 those who are the dependents on his bounty. They were 
 to have the purest principles of morals instilled into their 
 minds ; but the attempt is vain when religion is not placed 
 as the foundation of morals. 
 
 * He. like the Public School Society, stands by to see that 
 the potter shall give no form to the vase, till the clay 
 grows stiff and hardened. Then it will be too late. 
 
 The gentleman also made objections to our schools, 
 because, he said, they were in our churches. The fact 
 is, we were obliged to provide them where we could, and 
 our means would permit ; and there are some of them in the 
 basement of our churches. And he conceived it impossible 
 to keep them from sectarian influence, because the children 
 would be within hearing of the chant of Divine service ; as 
 though sectarianism depended on geographical distances 
 from church. But this could not have been a valid ob- 
 jection, because the Public School Society has had not 
 only schools under churches, but in the Session Rooms 
 of churches. 
 
 I shall refer now to the learned gentleman who follow- 
 ed him (Mr. Ketchum), and I can only say that this gen- 
 tleman, with a great deal of experience in this particular 
 question, really seems to me to confirm all I say on the 
 ground we have taken. I know he lectured me pretty 
 roundly on the subject of attending the meetings held 
 under St. James' church. I know he did more for me 
 than the Pope : the Pope " mitred" me but once, but he 
 did so three or four times during the course of his address. 
 He read me a homily on the duties of station ; and he so 
 far forgot his country and her principles, as to call it a 
 " descent" on my part, when I mingled in a popular meet- 
 ing of freemen But it was no descent : and I hope the 
 time will never come when it will be deemed a descent 
 for a man in office to mingle with his fellow-citizens when 
 convened for legitimate and honorable purposes. 
 
 But from his speech it would appear, that his experi- 
 ence has been obtained by the discharge of the duty of 
 standing advocate of denial ; and yet, with all his experi- 
 ence and opportunities of research, his inability to over- 
 turn our grounds confirms me in the conviction that they 
 are not to be removed, even by the aid of splendid talents ; 
 for that speech, like most others, went on the false issue 
 that we want privileges. But we want no privilege. 
 That speech, like the speech from the Throne, might 
 have been the speech of years past, and might have been 
 stereotyped; for its only novelty, which proved to me 
 that it was not all the work of antiquity, was the part 
 which appertained to myself. And not only that, but I 
 have to say, that when I came into this hall — and it is the 
 first time I ever stood in an assembly of this description 
 — I felt that I was thrown on the hospitality of the profes- 
 sional gentlemen ; and I think if I and that gentleman 
 could have exchanged places, I should not have looked so 
 hard at him as he did at me. In fact, throughout that 
 speech, he, with peculiar emphasis, and a manner which 
 he may, perhaps, have acquired in his practice in courts 
 of law, fixed upon me a steady gaze — and he has no or- 
 dinary countenance — and addressed me so solemnly, that 
 I really expected every moment he would forget himself, 
 and say " The prisoner at the bar." (Laughter.) He did 
 
 not, however. He passed that over ; and whilst I recoct 
 nize and respect the " human face divine," because God 
 made it to look upward, I may here observe, that it has 
 no power to frighten me, even if it would be terrible • and 
 therefore I was not at all disturbed by the hard looks 
 which he gave me. The gentleman will pardon me, I 
 hope, in this, for it is natural enough, after what has been 
 said — though I know it was said in good humour, to claim 
 the privilege to retort. 
 
 Well, sir, this was not all, but he told us something 
 about going to the stake. He was sure, if any of the pub- 
 lic money was voted to the denomination of a reverend 
 gentleman whose name I will not mention, the Catholics 
 would go to the stake. Now, sir, we have no intention to 
 do so. We know the public money does go to the sup- 
 port of religion ; it goes to the support of chaplaincies, 
 theological seminaries, universities, and chaplains of in- 
 stitutions whose appointments are permanent ; and be it 
 remembered, that one of the first lectures delivered in 
 one institution, the University of this city, which was aided 
 from the public funds, was on the anti-republican tendency 
 of Popery. And yet we did not go to the Stake for that ; 
 and why ? Because, though our portion of taxation min- 
 gles with the rest, we have no objections to the use of it 
 which the law prescribes, so long as no inalienable rights 
 of our own are involved in the sacrifice. 
 
 But, again, he said, if any of the money was appropri- 
 ated to the Catholic religion, Protestants would go to the 
 stake. I will not say whether Protestants are so exclu- 
 sive ; while we submit to taxation for protestant purposes, 
 without going to the stake, whether, if we participate, 
 they will go to the stake, is not for me to say. 
 
 Then he came to the Protestant Bible, " without note 
 or comment ;" and " it was hard for him to part with that 
 translated Bible." He stood by it, and repeated that " it 
 was hard to give up the Bible," just as if I had said one 
 Avord against it ; and as if I was about to bring the Pope 
 to banish it out of the Protestant world, or wished to de- 
 prive any man who venerates it of any use he may think 
 proper to make of it. And there, again, he looked so 
 much as if he were in earnest, that, at one time, I thought 
 he was actually about to rush to the " stake." But there 
 was no stake there to go to, except that which he holds 
 in the exchequer of the Public SctiooI Society. It is a 
 most comfortable way of going to martyrdom. 
 
 Sir, the gentleman taunted me for having attended the 
 public meetings of Catholics on this subject, and he im- 
 puted the prejudice which exists against the Public School 
 system to the observations I have made, as though it were 
 of my creation. In answer to that I may state, what has 
 been the fact for years, that Catholics have been strug- 
 gling to have schools, and to the extent of their means we 
 have them ; and what is the reason ? Do you suppose 
 that we should impose additional burdens upon ourselves, 
 if we were satisfied with those public schools? Do you 
 suppose we should have paid for our bread a second time, 
 if that which these schools offered had not, in our opinion, 
 been turned to a stone ? No, the existence of our own 
 schools proves that I have not excited the prejudice ; but 
 still it is at all times my duty to warn my people agains 
 that which is destructive or violative to the religion they pro- 
 fess ; and if they abandon their religion they are free ; — but 
 so long as they are attached to our religion, it is my duty, as 
 their pastor, as the faithful guardian of their principles and 
 morals, to warn them when there is danger of imbibing poi- 
 
44 
 
 son instead of wholesome food. That is the reason ; and 
 I am sorry that he has not found a motive less unworthy 
 of me than that he has been pleased to assign. 
 
 Then and I may as well take up the question now as 
 
 elsewhere— it has been said that it is conceived to be an 
 inconsistency in our argument, that we object to the Pub- 
 lic Schools because religion is taught in them, and yet, in 
 the schools which we propose to establish, or rather, 
 which we have established, but for which we now plead, 
 we profess to teach no sectarianism ; and the question 
 arises, " if you are opposed to religion in these schools 
 because it is sectarianism, how can you teach religion in 
 your schools, and yet your schools not be sectarian?" 
 This is the position in which they place us ; and in an- 
 swer I have to state, that, in the first place, we do not in- 
 tend to teach religion. We shall be willing that they 
 shall be placed under the same inspection that the Public 
 Schools are now ; and if it should be found that religion 
 is taught, we will be willing that you shall cut them off. 
 You shall be the judges. You may see. that the law is 
 complied with, and if we violate it, let us be deprived of 
 the benefits for which the conditions were prescribed. 
 But there is neutral ground on which our children may 
 learn to read and cipher. If they read, it must be somc- 
 thin<r that is written ; words are signs of ideas, and 
 in the course of their instruction they may be made so to 
 shape their studies, as to loathe Catholicism, without 
 learning any other religion. And this could be produced, 
 not alone in reference to Catholics, but Presbyterians, 
 Methodists, Unitarians, or any other. They might find 
 that their children disregard their own religion, while they 
 are not taught any other. Suppose the Prcsbyterinns, or 
 any other denomination, were in the minority, and Catho- 
 lics were numerically what Protestants are now, and 
 therefore were able to decide what lessons their children 
 should read in these schools, I ask you if the gentleman 
 would not conceive he had reasonable objections, if they 
 had forced upon them a system of education which teaches 
 that their denomination, past, present, and to come, was 
 deceitful ? Now, take up these books, which teach all 
 that is infamous in our history ; which teach our children 
 about the " execution of Cranmer," the burning of Huss, 
 and " the character of Luther." If such a practice were 
 reversed, what would he do? 
 
 Now, in our schools, I would teach them — I would 
 aive our children lessons for exercise in reading, that 
 should teach them that when the young tree of American 
 liberty was planted, it was watered with Catholic blood, 
 and that therefore we have as much right to every thing 
 common in this country as others. 1 should teach them 
 that Catholic Bishops and Catholic Barons at Runney- 
 mede wrung the charter of our liberties — the grand parent 
 of all known liberty in the world — from the hands of a 
 tvrant. I should teach them where to find the bright 
 spots no our history, though the gentleman who re- 
 presents the Methodists knew not where they were 
 to be found. This I would do, and should I violate 
 the law ? If, instead of the burning of Huss, I gave them 
 a chapter on the character of Charles Carroll of Carroll- 
 ton, as a reading lesson, would that be teaching them of 
 Purgatory, and the doctrine of Transubstantiation. ? 
 
 But if our circumstances were reversed, so that Cath- 
 olics controlled the public schools, would not Presby- 
 terians have a right to complain ? — and should not we be 
 tyrants while we refused to listen to their complaints, if 
 
 we spread before their children lessons on the burning of 
 
 Servetus by Calvin, and on the hangings of members of 
 the Society of Friends by those who held Calvin's doc- 
 trines ? I should listen to their appeal in such a case with 
 feelings far different from those manifested by thern in 
 regard toothers. But I would do more, in order that those 
 little vagrants ;of whom the gentleman speaks might come 
 into school. Their parents themselves having by perse- 
 cution been deprived, in many instances, of an education, 
 do not fully appreciate its advantages, and if you seek to 
 enforce the attendance of their children, they will resist; 
 if you attempt to coerce them you will not succeed. But 
 if you put tbem in a way to be admitted without being 
 dragged by force to the. school, or without destroying 
 their religious principles when they enter, (which you 
 have no right to do,) then you will prepare good citizens, 
 educated to the extent that will make them useful to their 
 country. Then their parents, having confidence in their 
 pastors, will send their children to schools approved of 
 by them — and the children themselves may attend schools 
 where they need not be ashamed of their creed, and where 
 their companions will not call them " Papists," and tell 
 them that ignorance and vice are the accompaniments of 
 their religion. That will be the result, and 1 conceive it 
 will be beneficial. 
 
 Much has been said about the distinction between 
 morality and religion, and about those certain broad prin- 
 ciples on which it is thought all can agree. And yet our 
 opponents contend, and I am surprised at the circum- 
 stance — gentlemen who are not only christians themselves 
 but christian ministers, contend all through, for the rights 
 of those who are not of the Christian religion, but are 
 commonly called Infidels. An attempt has been made 
 to draw a distinction between morality and religion. I 
 have already said, and there is not a gentleman here who 
 will protend to deny it, that morality mu3t reston religion for 
 its basis. I refer you, and it is not an ordinary authority, to 
 ain;i:i who passed through life with the most beautiful char- 
 acter and (he most blameless reputation, that ever fell to 
 the lot of a public man — one who was distinguUhed almost 
 above all other men; one, of whom it would be profane to 
 say that he was inspired, yet, of whom history has not 
 banded down one useless action, or one single idle word, 
 a man who left to his country an inheritance of the bright- 
 est example, and the fairest name that ever soldier or 
 statesman be queathed to a nation — lhat man was George 
 Washington. Hear what he says in his Frf.wi.ll Ad- 
 dress, on the attempt now being made to preserve morality 
 whilst religion is discarded from the public schools. 
 
 ' : Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political pros- 
 perity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain 
 would that man claim the tribute of patriotism, who should labor to 
 subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest prop3 
 of the duiies of men and citizens. The mere politician, equally 
 with the pious man, ought to respect and to che ish them. A vol- 
 ume could not trace all their connexions with private and public fe- 
 licity. Let it be simply asked, where is the security for property, 
 for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligations desert 
 the oaths, which are the instruments of investigation in courts of 
 justice ? And let us with caution indulge the supposition, that mo- 
 rality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be con- 
 ceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar struc- 
 ture, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national 
 morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle. 
 
 " 'Tis substantially true, that virtue or morality is a necessary 
 spring of popular government. The rule indeed extends with more 
 or less force to every species of free government. Who that is a 
 a sincere friend to it can look with indifference upon attempts to 
 shake the foundation of the fabric ?" 
 
45 
 
 Such is the warning, the solemn warning of this great 
 man. If you take away religion, on what foundation do 
 you propose to iear the structure of morality ? No — 
 they stand to each other in the relation of parent and off- 
 spring, or rather they are kindred principles from the same 
 divine source, and what God has joined together, let no 
 man- put asunder. 
 
 Now, with regard to all said by me against the Pro- 
 testant Bible, I appeal to this honorable body whether 
 I ever said one word hostile to that Bible ; and yet, from 
 the address of the gentlemen on the other side, men abroad 
 who should read their speeches, would be led to believe 
 that I not only entertained, but that I had uttered senti- 
 ments of hostility to that work. And it is ever thus that 
 our principles and our feelings are misrepresented, while 
 gentlemen profess to be conscious of entertaining no pre- 
 judice against us as Catholics. One gentleman, however, 
 avowedliis hostility to us on this ground, and for his can- 
 dor I tender my acknowledgment. The whole effort of 
 some of the gentlemen, indeed of all who have spoken on 
 the subject, has been to show that the system must be 
 made so broad and liberal that alt can agree in it — but I 
 think they contend for too much -when they wish so to 
 shape religion and balance it on its pedestal as to make it 
 suit every body and every sect ; for if Infidels are to be 
 suited, and it is made to reconcile them to the system, I 
 want to know whether Catholics, or any other class, are 
 not entitled to the right to have it made to suit them. — 
 And if every body is to be made satisfied, why is it that 
 Catholics and others are discontented and excluded ? Is 
 it not manifest that what they profess to accomplish is 
 beyond their reach I Now the Infidels have found able 
 advocates in the Rev. gentlemen who have spoken in the 
 course of this discussion — I mean the interests of Infidel- 
 ity — and why is it then, that the gentlemen who plead 
 for that side of the question, enter their protest against 
 ours ! I should like to know why there is this inconsis- 
 tency. If the rule is to be general, why is it not general ! 
 I pass now to the reasoning of one learned gentleman who 
 spoke yesterday, and defended the Protestant Bible. Now 
 this was unnecessary in that gentleman — it was in him a 
 work of superorogation to vindicate the Protestant Scrip- 
 tures — it was useless to defend a point which had not 
 been attacked. It was time lost ; and yet, perhaps, not 
 altogether lost, for in some respects it may have been 
 profitable enough. In entering on its defence, he said it 
 ■was the instrument of human liberty throughout the world 
 — wherever it was, there was light and liberty ; and 
 where it was not, there was bondage and darkness ; and 
 he brought it round so that he almost asserts that our 
 Declaration of Independence had been copied from the 
 Bible. No doubt the just and righteous principles on 
 ■which that Declaration has its foundation have their 
 sanction in the Bible, but I deny their immediate con- 
 nection, and on historical grounds, for it is known that 
 its author looked upon St. Paul as an imposter ; conse- 
 quently their connection is not historically true. But 
 while the gentleman referred to our notes, (but which 
 we disown and repudiate,) as containing principles of per- 
 secution—how was it that after the Protestant Bible, 
 "without note and comment," came into use, every de- 
 nomination of Protestants in the whole world that had the 
 misfortune, for it must have been a misfortune, to be 
 yoked to civil power, wielded the sword of persecution, 
 and derived theiratithority for so doing from the naked text. 
 
 Yes, in Scotland, iu all her confessions of faith — in Eng- 
 land, and I appeal to her penal laws against Catholics, 
 and those acts by which the Puritans and Dissenters 
 were pursued, men who had the misfortune, like 
 ourselves, to have a conscience, were driven out, 
 and all was done on the authority of the Bible, with- 
 out note or comment, and for the public good, and the 
 good of the Church. I do not say that the Bible sanc- 
 tioned persecution, but I deny that the absence of notes is 
 an adequate preventive 1 refer to history. And al- 
 most to this day, though the Bible has been translated 
 three hundred years, even in liberal governments, the 
 iron heel of persecution has been placed on the dearest 
 rights of Catholics. The gentleman to whom I allude 
 said, no doubt, what he knew would be popular out of 
 doors, for he seems, with others, to imagine that the world 
 began at the period of the Reformation. He seems to think 
 that every thing great originated at that period. But does 
 he not know that eight hundred editions of the Bible had 
 been printed before the Reformation 1 And does he not 
 know that two hundred editions had been circulated in the 
 common tongue, in the common language of the country ? 
 And has he yet to learn tha the first prohibition to 
 read the Bible, came not from a Catholic, but from 
 a Protestant — from Protestant Henry VIII., of " glori- 
 ous memory 1" He was the first to issue a prohibition, 
 and it was not till Catholics saw the evil — not of the Bi- 
 ble, but the bad uses men were making of the Bible, that 
 they placed its perusal under certain restrictions, and 
 cautioned their people against hastily judging of it for 
 themselves. All had been united and harmonious, but 
 by the use, or abuse, which men made of the Bible, all 
 became doubt and speculation, and the positive revelation 
 of Christ was shaken or destroyed. They saw this Bi- 
 ble, and what then ? But, while these school gentle- 
 men contend that it is a shield against Infidelity, and that 
 all sects here agree, how is it out of the schools? Why, 
 no sects agree upon it. How is it that the Bible, -which 
 is given by the inspiration of God, the God of truth, is 
 made use of in this city even, to prove a Trinity and to 
 disprove a Trinity? How is it that Trinitarians quote it 
 to prove their doctrines, and Unitarians quote it to estab- 
 lish the opposite doctrines? How is it that whilst one 
 says from the Bible, that God the Father is God alone, 
 and that Christ is not equal to him, for he says, " The 
 Father is greater than /," another argues from the same 
 Bible that the Father and Son are equal, because Christ says 
 "T/ie Father and I are oneV And another comes with 
 the Bible in his hand, and says, I believe, and I can prove 
 it from this Bible that Christ alone is the Almighty God, 
 and the Father and the Spirit are only attributes of the 
 same person ! Why, this Bible -which they say is the 
 foundation of all truth, and they say well, when it is tru- 
 ly understood, a grace which God can vouchsafe, and, 
 no doubt, he does to many, this Bible is harmonious in 
 its every doctrine. But that is not the point — the point 
 is the uses we see men make of it, and this is the sum 
 of our reason that we wish our children not to be taught 
 in the manner in which Protestant children are taught 
 in reference to the Bible. 
 And then, again, if you teach that there is a hell, accord- 
 ing to the Bible, others will contend that the Scriptures 
 teach no such doctrine, and so I might pass on to other 
 points to show you whilst they thus contend for the Bible 
 as the guide to truth, there is this disagreement among 
 
4« 
 
 them, at least in this country, where human right-? and 
 liberties are understood, as allowing every man to judge 
 for himself. Is there not then danger — is there no ground 
 to apprehend that when our children read this Bible and 
 find that all these different sects father all their contra- 
 dictions on the Bible- as their authority, they will derive 
 their first notions of Infidelity from these circumstances ? 
 But there is another ground on which it is manifest we 
 cannot allow our children to be taught by them. Whilst 
 we grant them the right to take, if they please, the Pro- 
 testant Bible as the rule of their faith, and the individual 
 right to judge of the Bible — and this great principle they 
 proclaim as the peculiar, and distinctive, and most glori- 
 ous trait in their religious character and history — and let 
 them boast of it, there is no difficulty on the subject — 
 they interpret the Bible by the standard of reason, and 
 therefore, as there is no given standard of reason — as 
 one has more and another less, they scarcely e\ er arrive 
 at the same result, while the Bible, the eternal Word of 
 God, remains the same. But this is not a Catholic prin- 
 ciple. Catholics do not believe that God has vouchsafed 
 the promise of the Holy Spirit to every individual, but 
 that He has given flis Spirit to teach the Church collec- 
 tively, and to guide the Church, and therefore we do not 
 receive as the Bible except what the Church guarantees, 
 and wanting this guarantee, the Methodist gentleman failed 
 to establish the book which he produced with its notes, as 
 a Catholic Bible. We do not take the Bible on the author- 
 ity of a " King's Printer," who is a speculating publisher, 
 who publishes it but as a speculation. And why ? Be- 
 cause by the change of a single comma, that which is 
 positive may be made negative, and rice vit'sd, and then 
 is it the Bible of the inspired writers ! It is not. They 
 proclaim, then, that theirs is a Christianity of reason; of 
 this they boast, and let them glory. Ours is a Christian- 
 ity of faith; ours descends by the teaching of the Church ; 
 we are never authorized to introduce new doctrines, be- 
 cause we contend that no new doctrine is true, from the 
 time of the Apostles, unless it has come from the mind 
 of God by a special revelation, and to us that is not man- 
 ifest among the Reformers. We are satisfied to trust our 
 eternal interests, for weal or woe, on the security of that 
 Catholic Church, and the veracity of the divine promises. 
 You perceive, therefore, that Protestants may agree in 
 the system where this Bible is thus introduced ; but it is 
 not in accordance with the principles of Catholics that 
 each one shall derive therefrom his own notions of Chris- 
 tianity. It is not the principle of Catholics, because they 
 believe in the incompetence of individual reason, in mat- 
 ters of such importance. It is from this self-sufficiency 
 and imputed capacity that men derive such notions of 
 self-confidence, which, owing to a want of power to con- 
 troul in some domestic circles, if taught to our children, 
 lead to disobedience and disregard of the parental au- 
 thority. 
 
 I have been obliged to enter into this, which is ra- 
 ther theological than otherwise, to put you in possession 
 of the true ground. We do not take the Protestant Bible, 
 but we do not wish others not to take it if they desire it- 
 If conscience be stifled, you do not make us better men 
 or better citizens, and therefore I say, gentlemen, respect 
 conscience, even though you think it in error, provided 
 it does not conflict with the public rights. I have 
 sufficiently disoposed of the addresses of the two legal ge- 
 ntlemen who have spoken. I will now call the attention 
 
 of thi-r honorable body to the remarks of the Rev gentle- 
 
 mm who spoke in relation to the Rhemish Testament. 1 
 did use, sir, yesterday, an expression which 1 used with 
 reluctance, but when we were charged before this honor- 
 able bod/ — when the Rev. gentleman who represents a 
 numerous denomination, charged us with teaching the 
 lawfulness of murdering heretics, that expression came 
 on me as a thunderbolt ; because I thought that truth 
 should proceed from the lips of age and a man of character. 
 And, sir, I knew that po-ition was not true, and that it 
 was an easy matter to assert a thing, but not so easy to 
 disprove it. I might take advantage of circumstances to 
 charge a man with things that it would take weeks to 
 disprove, and therefore I thought it necessary to nail that 
 slanderous statement to the counter before it could have 
 its designed influence here or elsewhere. That gentle- 
 man began with great humility, and with professions of 
 being devoid of prejudice, and then he said that those 
 meetings to which he referred, and which he called " pub- 
 lic gatherings," had caused him to feel greatly alarmed 
 about this question, as if the stability of your Republic 
 was endangered, provided Catholic children received the 
 benefits of a common school education ! He said 1 had 
 applied certain remarks to the creed of the Society of 
 Friends, and, though perhaps it was somewhat out of 
 order, but wishing to set the gentleman right, I denied 
 that I had done so. But since then the reporter has handed 
 me the notes taken of what I did say, and from them also 
 it appears that I said no such thing. He referred to the 
 practice of teaching religion in the schools; but of that I 
 have di- posed already. 
 
 He then, while going through the introductory part 
 of the remonstrance of the .Methodist Episcopal church, 
 threw out constantly calumnious charges against the 
 Catholic church and the Catholic religion ; he did not 
 throw them out as assertions but by inuendo, as "if it 
 be true," and " I should like to know," as if I am here 
 for the purpose of supplying every thing he would " like 
 to know." And how can 1 meet him when insinuation 
 is the form in which his charges are thrown out '. Why, 
 their very feebleness takes from an opponent the power 
 of refutation. But when he comes to something tangi- 
 ble, then I can meet him. Having gone through a se- 
 ries of insinuations, he misrepresents our intentions : not- 
 withstanding we disclaim such an intention, he in- 
 dulges in the gratuitous supposition that if your honor- 
 able body should grant our petition, we shall secret- 
 ly teach the Catholic religion. But if wo do, is not the 
 law as potent against us as against the Public Schools ? 
 If they teach religion, as they acknowledge, why may 
 not we ? W T e are not grasping to obtain power over 
 others, but we desire in sincerity to benefit a portion of 
 our own neglected children. I shall pass over, therefore, 
 agreat dealof what the gentleman " would like to know," 
 for I do not know if it is of importance t» the subject. 
 He said, this Rhemish Testament was published by au- 
 thority ; but he began by a retreat and cot by a 
 direct charge, " he did not profess to say that our 
 church approved of it ; but it was printed and published 
 and it was not on the Index," as if every bad book 
 in the world, must be in the Index ; and with this evi- 
 dence of fact, he comes here and spreads before the 
 American people the slander and calumny that the Ca- 
 tholics by their notes and comments, teach the lawfulness 
 of murdering heretics. Now, Sir, I will take up that 
 
47 
 
 book and the parts he read with the notes, giving an ex- 
 planation, as though they came from Catholics. To you 
 know the history of, that book, Sir . If not, I can tell 
 you. When Uueen Elizabeth scourged the Catholics 
 from their altars and drove them into exile, these men 
 held a common notion, which was natural and .iust, that 
 England was their country and that they were suffering 
 unmerited persecution. The new religion, not satisfied 
 with toleration for itself, grasped the substance of 
 things, grasped the power of the State, seized all their 
 temples ; and not even satisfied with this, scourged the 
 Catholics from their home and country ; and they did 
 write these notes, and why! They wrote them in exile, 
 smarting under the lash and the torture, and in connec- 
 tion too with a plan for the invasion of England, by 
 Philip II. of Spain. Their object was to disseminate a- 
 mongst Catholics of England dissatection to Queen; Eliz- 
 abeth and thus, dispose them to join the true Catholic and 
 oppose theheretics, because the heretics were their ene- 
 mies, were the enemies of their rights, and had crushed 
 them. But when that book appeared in England., wasthere 
 a single approval given it, a single Catholic that received 
 it ? Not one. When it was published for political ends — 
 to aid the invasion of Philip — did the English Catholics 
 receive it ? Never. But the gentleman said it was pub- 
 lished by the Bishops of Ireland, and with their approba- 
 tion and with the approbation of a great number of the 
 Catholic clergy ; and this after his own admission that, 
 insomuch as it had not been approved by the Holy See, 
 the Bishop of Rome, it was not of authority in the Ca- 
 tholic church. ?>ow I shall take up both parts, and first 
 I should like to know where is his authorit}-, that it was 
 published by the Bishops of Ireland I I pause for a re- 
 . ply, and I shall not consider it an interruption. 
 
 Dr. Bond. Do you wish an answer? 
 
 Bishop Hughes. I do, Sir; I desire your authority. 
 
 Dr. Bond. Why if we a e to believe history, it is 
 true ; it is stated in the British Critic. 
 
 Bishop Hughes. Oh! I am satisfied. 
 
 Dr. Bond. It could not have been reviewed if it did 
 not exist. 
 
 Bishop Hughes. Oh ! It is here, and that proves its 
 existence without the British Critic. It was gone out 
 of print again, and not a Catholic now heard of it, but 
 your liberal Protestant clergymen of New York, repub- 
 lished it. What for '( To bring infamy on the Catholic 
 name ; and it was from this Protestant edition, and 
 not from Ireland that the Methodist gentleman received 
 it. 1 am now not surprised at his saying so o.ten that 
 he would " like to know," for a little more knowledge 
 would be of great advantage to him. I need not read it. 
 
 Dr. Bond. Oh, you had better. 
 
 Bishop Hughes. Well, Sir, any thing to accomodate 
 you. 
 
 " It is a remarkable fact, that notwithstanding the 
 Vulgate New Testament, as it was translated and ex- 
 pounded by the members of the Jesuit College at 
 Rheims in 15S2, has been republished in a great number 
 of editions, and their original annotations, either more or 
 less extensively, have been added to the text ; yet as 
 soon as it is appealed to as an authority, the Roman 
 Priests admit both the value of the book, and the obli- 
 gation of the Papists to believe its contents. We have 
 a very striking modern instance to prove this deceit- 
 fulness." 
 
 Now it must be recollected that this is a Protestant 
 
 publication ; the Catholics did not circulate it, but the 
 Protestant Ministers did, to mislead their flocks and to 
 bring infamy on their Catholic fellow citizens. 
 
 " The Douay Bible is usually so called, because al- 
 though the New Testament was first translated and pub- 
 lished at Rheims, yet the Old Testament was printed 
 some years after at Douay ; the English Jesuits having 
 removed their Monastery from Rheims to Douay, befo*e 
 their version of the Old Testament was completed In 
 the year lb]6,an edition, including both the Douay Old, 
 and the Rhemish New Testament, was issued at Dublin, 
 containing a large number of comments, replete with im- 
 piety, irrejigion, and the most fiery persecution. That 
 edition was published under the direction of all the Dig- 
 nitaries of the Roman Hierarchy in Ireland ; and about 
 thiee hundred others of the most influential subordinate 
 Priests." 
 
 Now I called for the gentleman's evidence for this, 
 and the gentleman was found v.imu habenl — he has it 
 not to give. The prints said so, and he believed the 
 prints ! INow, Sir, this is a grave charge and 1 am dis- 
 posed to treat it gravely ; but 1 should not feel w orthy 
 of the name of a man, I should feel myself unworthy of 
 being a member of the American lamily, if I had not 
 risen and repelled such a charge as it deserved. 
 Dr Bond. You hove not read all I read. 
 Bishop Hughes. 1 will read all the gentleman mny 
 wish if he will not keep me here, reading all night 
 
 " The notes which urged the hatred and murder of 
 Protestants, attracted the aitention of the British 
 churches, and to use the words of T. Hartwell Home, 
 that edition of the Rhemish Testament printed at Dublin 
 in 1816, corrected and revised and approved by Dr. 
 Troy, Roman Catholic Archbishop of Dublin, was re- 
 viewed by the British Critic, vol. S. p. 296— aOrt ; New 
 Series ;, and its dangerous tenets both civil and reli- 
 gious, were exposed.'' 
 That is the testimony. 
 Dr. Bond. There is another paragraph. 
 Bishop Hughes. Well, I will read the other. 
 " This publication, with many others of a similar cha- 
 racter, produced so great an excitement in Britain, that 
 finally several of the most prominent of the Irish Roman 
 Prelates were called before the English Parliament to 
 prove their own work. Then, and upon oath, with all 
 official solemnity, they peremptorily disclaimed the vol- 
 umes published by their own instigation, and under their 
 own supervision and auspices, as books of no authority ; 
 because they had not been ratified by the Pope, and 
 received by the whole Papal church." 
 
 Now, what authority have we for this charge of perjiuy 
 against the Irish Bishops, better than the gentleman's 
 own ? It is so stated here ; what authority is there for 
 that ? 
 
 Dr. Bond. It was so stated before the British Par- 
 liament. 
 
 Bishop Hughes. I should regret, on account of your 
 age, if I used any expression that might be deemed 
 harsh. 
 
 Dr. Bond. Take the liberty to say what yon please. 
 Bishop Hughes. With regard to these not a, 1 have to 
 observe, that they were written in an age, (15S2) when the 
 rights of conscience were but little understood. Protes- 
 tants in that age every where persecuted, not only Catho- 
 lics, but each other. And long after, the Puritans of 
 New England with the Bible, and without notes, perse- 
 
48 
 
 cuted with torture, and even to hanging Iheir fellow Pro- 
 testants, ft was not wonderful, therefore, if in such an 
 «ge Catholics were tumid to entertain t lie opinion* set 
 forth in the notes. Hut bad as they are, it is remarkable 
 that they do not sustain the calumnious charge of the Rev. 
 Gentleman, that they " toach the lawfulness of murdering 
 heretics." 
 
 And now, Sir, let me call your attention to the book 
 itself. 
 
 In the 13th chapter of St. Matthew, there is this text, at 
 the 29th ver.se It occurs in the Parable of the cockle 
 (in the Protestant version tares) and the wheat, in answer 
 to Christ's Disciples who asked : " Wilt thou that toe 
 gather ft up I 1 ' And hesaid.no: Lest perhaps gather- 
 ing up the cockles, you may root up the wheal also together 
 with it. The annotation on this is : 
 
 ''Ver. 29. Lest you pluck up also. The good mutt tolerate tlie evil 
 when it is so strong that it cannot be redressed without danger and 
 disturbance of the whole Church, and commit the matter to God's 
 judgment in the latter day. Otherwise, where ill men, be they Hnc- 
 tics or other malefactors, may be punished or suppressed without dis- 
 turbance and hazard of the good, they may, and ought, by public au- 
 thority, either spirit u. d or temporal, to be chastised or executed. 1 ' 
 
 They may and ought " by public authority /" Why the 
 proposition of the gentleman was, that Catholics were 
 taught lo kill their Protestant neighbors. Now there is 
 not through lit toe whole volume a proposition so absurd 
 as the i lea conveyed by him. Bud as the notes are they 
 require falsification to bear him out. 
 
 Again, Lul.c, 9 ch. v. 54. 55 : And when his Disciples 
 James and John had seen it, they said, Lord will thou we 
 say that 're come down from heaven and consume them? 
 And turning he rebuked them, saying, You know not of 
 what spirit you are. Annotation : 
 
 " Vcr. 55. He rebuked, them. Not justice, nor all rigorous punish- 
 ment of sinners is here forbidden, nor Elias' fact reprehended, nor the 
 Church or Christian Princes blamed for putting Heretics to death.— 
 But noneofihesc should be done for desire of our particular revenge, 
 or without discretion and regard of their amendment, and example to 
 others. Therefore Peter used his power upon Ananias and Saphira 
 when he struck them both clown to death for defrauding the Church. : ' 
 
 I am afraid I shall fatigue this honorable body by going 
 over these notes, nor is it necessary that I should follow 
 the gentleman in all his discursive wanderings. There 
 is nothing in this to authorize the murdering of heretics. 
 
 But, again, Luke 14 ch. 23 v. And the. Lord said to 
 the servant, Go forth unlo the ways and hedges ; and com- 
 pel ih?m to enter, that my house may be filled. Annotation : 
 
 " Compel them. The vehement persuasion that God uscth, both exter- 
 nally, by force of his word and miracles, and internally by his grace, to 
 bring us unto him is cahed compelling: not that he fore th any to come 
 to him against their w ills, but that he can alter and mollify a hard heart, 
 an I make him willing, that before would no'. Augustine, also, refer- 
 red) this compelling to the penal aws, which Catholic Princes do justly 
 use against Heretics and Schismatics, proving that they who are by 
 their former profession in Baptism subject to the Catholic Church, and 
 are departed from the same after sects, may, and ought to be compell- 
 ed into the unity and society of the Universal Church again ; and 
 therefore, in this sense, by the two former parts of the parable, the 
 J.iws first, and secondly the Gentiles, that never believed before in 
 Christ were invited by fair, sweet means only ; but by the third, such 
 are invited as the Church of God hath power over, because they 
 promised in B tptism, and t herefore are to be revoked not only by gentle 
 means, but by just punishment also." 
 
 Sir, the punishment of spiritual offences and the allu- 
 sions here made to it, have their roots too deep, and too 
 wide spreading to he entered into and discussed in the 
 time that I could occupy this evening. It would be im- 
 possible to go over the historical grounds which suggest 
 n emselves iu connection with the subject, to shew the re- 
 
 sults to the state of society, which grew unavoidably out of 
 
 the breaking up of the Roman Empire, and th» incursion 
 of new and uncivilized n itions and tribes. Society had 
 been dissolved, with all the order and laws of the ancient 
 civilization. It was the slow work of the church to re-or- 
 ganise the new and crude mate- ials — to gather and arrange 
 the fragments — to re-mode| nociety nnd social institutions 
 as best she might. There was no other power that could 
 digest the crude mass; the fierce infusions of other 
 tongues and tribes ar-d nations that had, during the chaos, 
 become mixed up with the remains of ancient Roman ci- 
 vilisation. She had to begin by religion, their con- 
 version to Christianity being the fiist step; and the 
 Catholic church being the only one in existence. Hence 
 the laws of religion are the first with which fhose new 
 populations became acquainted, and the only ones that 
 could restrain them. Hence too, what is called Canon Law 
 went before, and Civil Law gradually followed, often times 
 mixed with, and deriving its force from the older form 
 of legislation. The actual state of society made it 
 unavoidable that this should be the order of things. Civil 
 governments oftentimes engrafted whole branches of the 
 ecclesiastical law in their secular codes ; and ecclesiasti- 
 cal judges were often the interpreters and administrators 
 of both 
 
 Canonical law and civil law thus blended, became the 
 codes of civil government, from the necessity of the case, 
 and it is to this state of things that the authors of the notes 
 make allusion in their text. But, as I have remarked, the 
 subject is too deep to be properly discussed on this occa- 
 sion, when time is so brief, and so many speakers to bo 
 replied to. 
 
 We now come to Acts, 25 v. II. 
 
 " / appeal to Cesar. If Paul, both to save himself from whipping 
 and from death, sought by the Jews, doubled not to cry for honor <f 
 the Roman laws, and to npp al to Cesar, the Prince of the Romans, 
 not yet christened, how n uch more may w e call fo aid of Christian 
 Princes and their law s, for the punishment of Heretics, and fot the 
 Church's defence against them. .Ivgust. Epist. 50." 
 
 Here you see the workirg of human interest ; and it is 
 not the fust time, among Protestants and Catholics, nor 
 will it be the last, that men have made the word cf God 
 and sacred things, a stepping-stone, to promote temporal 
 interests. They say there, "heretics have banished us and 
 is it not naturally the interest of Catholics to join a Catho- 
 lic Prince to put down our stern persecutors." As if they 
 had said to their fellow Catholics of England, a Catholic 
 Prince will soon make a descent on our country, it will be 
 your duty as it is your interest, to join in putting down the 
 heretic Elizabeth, who has driven us from our country. 
 
 I go now to Hebrews, ch. 10. v. 29. How much more 
 think you, doth he deserve worse punishments which hath 
 trodden the So i of God under Joot, and esteemed the blood 
 of the Testament polluted wherein he is sanctified, and hath 
 done conlrarily to the spirit of grace ? Annotation : 
 
 '• The blood of the Testament. Whosoever maketh no more account 
 of the blood of Christ's sacrifice, either as shed upon the cross, or as 
 in the chalice of the altar, for our Saviour callelh that, also, t e blood 
 of the New Testament, than he doth cf the blood of ea'ves and coats, 
 or of other common drinks, is worthy death, and God will in the next 
 life, if it be not punished here, revenge it with grievous punishment." 
 
 " God will in the next life punish !" Why, after all, 
 bad as these notes are, objectionable and scorned and re. 
 pudiated as they were by the Catholics of England ; bad 
 as they are, they do not sustain the gentleman whose as- 
 sertion has gone as far beyond the truth, as it is infinitely 
 
49 
 
 beyond charity. I do not find the notes from the Apoca- 
 lypse, which would have gone to shew in like manner that, 
 bad as they were, they do uot support the accusations 
 made. 
 
 Dr. Bond. There are others as well. 
 
 Bishop Hughes. Well, I will give you the rest. 
 
 The President. Perhaps it is not necessary. But if 
 they are, it is not necessary to interrupt the gentleman. 
 
 Bishop Hughes. Such then sir, are the notes put by the 
 Catholic translators of the New Testament at Iiheims in 
 1532 — smarting as they were under the lash of Eliza- 
 beth's persecution, and looking forward with hope to the 
 result of the invasion by Philip II. They were repudiated 
 indignantly by the Catholics of England and Ireland from 
 the first; and were out of print, until some Protestant 
 ministers of New York had them published in order to 
 mislead the people and to excite odium against the Catho- 
 lic name. 
 
 But here, Sir, is the acknowledged Testament of all 
 Catholics who speak the English language ; this is known 
 and may be read by any one , it is the 14lh edition in this 
 country, it corresponds with those used in England and 
 Ireland ; and if any such notes can be found in it, then 
 believe Catholics to be what they have been falsely repre- 
 sented to be. 
 
 But the Rev. gentleman disclaims originating the 
 slander. He took, it we are told, from the 'British Critic,' 
 as if that which is false must become true, from the mo- 
 ment it is put in type and piinted. But, Sir, he should 
 have known that the article in the British Critic was re- 
 futed at the time, and has been since refuted in the Dublin 
 Review. And it so happens that Doctor Troy, then Ca- 
 tholic Archbishop of Dublin, and who is here represented 
 as having approved these notes, had to sustain a law-suit 
 with tht Dublin publisher, who was also a Protestant — 
 not for approving the work, but for denouncing it, which 
 destroyed the publisher's speculation, and involved a suit 
 against the Archbishop for damages ! ! This is attested 
 by Dr. Troy's letter, now before me, and by the legal 
 proceedings, and in a speech made by Daniel O'Connell 
 to the Catholic Board at the time, (1817,) we find 
 the following : — 
 
 " From the Dublin Evening Post of the 6t/i of December, 1817. 
 CATHOLIC BOARD — THE RHEIMISH BIBLE. 
 A remarkably full meeting of the Catholic Board took place on 
 Thursday last, pursuant to adjournment— Owen O'Conner, Esq., in 
 the Chair. 
 
 After some preliminary business, Mr. O'Connell rose to make 
 his promised motion, for the appointment of a Committee to prepare 
 a. denunciation of the intolerant doctrines contained in the Rheimish 
 Notes. 
 
 Mr. O'Connell sai.i, that on the last day of meeting he gave notice 
 that he would move for ft committee, to draw up a disavowal of the 
 verydangerous and uncharitable doctrines conlain?d in certain notes to 
 the Rheimish Testament. He now rose to submit that motion to the 
 consideration cf the Board. The lale edition of the Rheimish Testa- 
 ment in this country gave rise to much observation ; — that work was 
 denounced by Dr. Troy ; an action is no w depending between him and 
 a respectable bookseller in this city ; and it would b^ the duty of the 
 Board not to interfere, in tue remotest degree, with the subject of that 
 action, but, on the other hand, the Board could not let .he present op- 
 portunity pass by of recording their sentiments of disapprobation and 
 even of abhorrence of the bigoted and intolerant doctrines promulgated 
 in that work. Their feelings of what was wise, consistent, and lib- 
 eral, would suggest such a proceeding, even though the indecent calum- 
 nies of their enemies had not rendered it indispensibl \ A work call- 
 ed The British Critic, h sd, no doubt, i een read by ioms gentlemen 
 who heard him. The circulation of the last number has been very 
 extorsive, and exceeded, almost beyond calculation, the circulation of 
 any former numbsr, in consequence of an article which appeared in it 
 on th* late edition of the Rheimish Testament. He (Mr. C*Connell) 
 
 said he read that article ; it is extremely unfair and uncandid ; it gives 
 with audacious falsehood, pas- ages, as if from the notes rf the Rheim- 
 isn Testament, which cannot be found in that work ; and, with mean 
 cunning, it seeks to avoid detection by quoting, without giving either 
 text or page. Throughout, it is written in the true spirit of the Inquisi- 
 tion, it is violent, vindictive, and uncharitable. He was sorry to under- 
 stand that it was wr tten by ministers of the Established Church ; but 
 he trusted, that when the charge of intemperance should be again 
 brought forward against the Cathol.cs, their accusers would cast their 
 eyes on this coarse ann illiberal attack — here they may find a specimen 
 of real intemperance. But the very acceptable work of imputing prin- 
 ciples to the Irish people which they never held, and which they abhor, 
 was not confined to The British Critic. The Courier, a newspaper 
 whose circulation is immense, lent its hand, and the provincial news- 
 papers throughout England — those papers which arc forever silent 
 when any thing might be said favorable to Ireland, but are ever active 
 to disseminate whatever may tend to her disgrace or dishonor. They 
 have not hesitated to impute to the Catholics of this country the doc- 
 trines contained in those offensive notes — and it was iheir duty to dis- 
 claim them. Nothing was more remote from the true sentiments of the 
 Irish people. These notes were of English growth ; they were written 
 in agitated times, when the title of Elizabeth was questioned, on the 
 grounds of legitimacy. Parly spirit was then extreme y violent ; — 
 politics mixed with religion, and, of course, disgraced it. Queen Mary, 
 of Scotland, had active partisans, who thought it would forward their 
 purposes to translate the Bible, and add to it those ob oxious notes. 
 But very short y after the establishment of the College at Douay, th s 
 Rheimish ed tion was condemned by all the Doctors of that Institution, 
 who, at the same time, called for and received the aid of the Scotch 
 and Irish Colleges. The book was thus suppressed, and an edition of 
 the Bible, with notes, was published at Douay, which has ever been 
 since adopted by the Catholic Church ; so that they not only condemn- 
 ed and suppressed the Rheimish edition, but they published an edition, 
 with notes, to which no objection has, or could be, urged. From that 
 period there have been but two editions of the Rheimish Testament ; 
 the first had very little circulation ; the late one was published by a 
 very ignorant printer in Cork, a man of the name of M'Namara, a 
 person who was not capable of distinguishing between the Rheimish 
 and any other edition of the Bible. He took up the matter merely 
 as a speculation in trade. He meant to publish a Catholic Bible, 
 and having put his hand upon the Rheimish edition, he commenced 
 to print it in numbers. He subsequently became bankrupt, and his 
 property in this transaction vested in Mr. Cumming, a respectable 
 bookseller in this city, who is either a Protestant or Presbyterian ; 
 but he carried on the work, like M Namara, merely to make money 
 of it, as a mercantile speculation ; and yet, said Mr. O'Connell, our 
 enemies have taken it up with avidity ; they have asserted that the 
 sentiments of those notes are cherished by the Catholics in this 
 country. He would not be surprised to read of speeches in the next 
 Parliament on the subject. It was a hundred to one but that some 
 of our briefless barristers have already commenced composing their 
 dull calumnies, and that we shall have speeches from them, for the 
 edification of the Legislature, and the protection of the Church — 
 There was not a moment to be lost — the Catholics should, with one 
 voice, disclaim those very odious doctrines. He was sure theie was 
 not a single Catholic in Ireland that did not feel as he did, abhor- 
 rence at the principles these notes contain. Illiberalityhas been at- 
 tributed to the Irish people, but they are grossly wronged. He had 
 often addressed the Catholic people of Ireland. He always found 
 them applaud every sentiment of liberality, and the doctrine of per- 
 fect freedom of conscience ; the right of every human being to nave 
 his religious creed, whatever that creed might be, unpolluted by the 
 impious interference of bigotted or oppressive laws. Those sacred 
 rights, and that generous sentiment, were never uttered at a Catholic 
 aggregate meeting, without receiving at the instant the loud and the 
 unanimous applause of the assembly. 
 
 It might be said that those meetings were composed of mere rab- 
 ble. Well, be it so. For one he should concede that, for the sake 
 of argument. But what followed ? Why, just this : — that the Cath- 
 olic rabble, without the advantages of education, or of the influence 
 of polished society, were so well acquainted with the genuine prin- 
 ciples of Christian charity, that they, the rabble, adopted and ap- 
 plauded sentiments of liberality, and of religious freedom, which, 
 unfortunately, met but little encouragement from the polished and 
 educated of other sects.'' 
 
 (Then follows the passage which we have quoted in the preceding 
 article.) 
 
 " Mr. O'Connell' s motion was put and carried, the words being 
 amended thus : — , 
 
 ' That a Committee be appointed to draw up an address on the oc- 
 casion of the late publication of the Rheimish Testament, with n 
 view to have the same submitted to an aggregate meeting.' " 
 
60 
 
 Such, Sir, are the history and the authority of the notes 
 put to the Kheimish translation of the New 'Ptestament. 
 The denunciation of Dr. Troy, spoiled the sale of the 
 work in Ireland, and the publisher's sent the remaining 
 copies for sale to this country ; but even this did not re. 
 muuerate him, as his loss was estimated at £500 sterling- 
 It must have been from one of these exiled copies, that 
 the Protestant edition published in this city, now produced, 
 was taken. These being the facts of the case, if I were a 
 Protestant, I should feel ashamed of a clergyman of my 
 church, who, from either malice or ignorance, should lake 
 up such a book, with the unchristian view of blackening 
 he character of any denomination of my fellow citizens. 
 But not only this, Sir, but look at the array of the names 
 of Protestant Ministers in this city certifying, contrary 
 to the fact, that this text and these notes are by the autho- 
 rity of the Catholic church, and then say, whether there is 
 no prejudice against the Catholics ! I shall now dismiss 
 the subject. 
 
 Sir, the Methodist gentleman, in the whole of his ad- 
 dress, in which he made the charge I have now dis- 
 posed of, and of which I wish him joy, slyly changed the 
 nature and bearing of my language in the remarks 1 made 
 last evening. For instance, respecting Purgatory, of 
 which I observed if they were not satisfied with our Pur- 
 gatory and wished to go farther, they might prove the 
 truth of the proverb, which says they may " go farther 
 and fare worse." He said I »• sent " them farther. But 
 that corresponds with the rest. I did not send them far- 
 ther. I here disavow such feelings in the name of human 
 nature and of that venerable religion which I profess. 
 
 But he has seen that "betting," as he was pleased to 
 call it, is a sin, because forsooth, " he would get rny mo- 
 ney without an equivalent." Now I think he suspected 
 the contrary. But I did not propose betting. His ca- 
 lumny had taken mc by surprise ; but was it not fortunate, 
 almost providential, that I had at hand a direct refutation, 
 for if his charge had gone abroad uncontradicted, the ig- 
 norant or bigotted would have taken it on his authority, 
 and quoted it with as much assurance as he did on that of 
 the British Critic — and for the same unholy purpose. He 
 took me I say at an unfair moment, and then it was I 
 stated that if the gentleman could prove his charge — 
 there were gentlemen here who had confidence in my 
 word, and I said I would pledge myself to forfeit $1000 
 to be distributed in charities to the poor, as this council 
 might direct, provided he would agree to the same for- 
 feiture, if he failed to prove it. This is not betting. 
 
 He says that his church has taught him the sinfulness 
 of betting. But this did not deserve that name. It was only 
 an ordeal to test his confidence in the veracity of the 
 slander contained in the Methodist Remonstrance. I may 
 not indeed, have the same scruples about what he culls 
 gambling, that he has ; but I do remember, what he seems 
 to have forgotten, that there is a precept of the Decalogue 
 — a commandment of the living God, which says : Thou 
 shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour." 
 
 I now pass to another portion of this gentleman's re- 
 marks. He contends that it is impossible to furnish read- 
 ing lessons from history for the last ten centuries, without 
 producing what must be offensive to Catholics. The his- 
 tory of Catholics is so black, that the Public Schools could 
 not, in his view, find a solitary bright page to refresh the 
 eye of the Catholic children. This is set forth in the He- 
 monstrance of the Methodist Episcopal Church, and this 
 
 the Rev. gentloman undertook to support in his speech. 
 
 He said that history must not be falsified for our accom- 
 modation. That the black and insulting passages against 
 us and our religion, placed in the hands of our childu n i<t 
 the Public Schools, were not to be charged as a delect in 
 the system — inasmuch as the Trustees could find worse, 
 but would be obliged to falsity history itself to find better. 
 From this defence you can judge what confidence Catho- 
 lics can place in :his Society, or in the schools under their 
 charge. 
 
 I contended that there existed portions of history emi- 
 nently honourable to Catholics. But, says he, "history 
 is philosophy, teaching by example — the good and the bad 
 must be taken together." Then how does it happen that 
 the bad alone is presented in the Public Schools ? Be- 
 sides, if all the good and all the bad which history ascribes 
 to Catholics must be presented, it would make a library 
 rather large for a class-book in the Public Schools. 
 Hence the necessity of a selection ; and how is it, that in 
 the selcctien the bad is brought out, and the good passed 
 over in silence as if it did not exist? Why is the burning 
 of Huss selected ? Why the burning of Cranmer? Why 
 are our children taught in the face of all sense and d( cen- 
 cy, that Martin Luther did more for learning, th=m any 
 other man " since the days of the Apostles!" Why is 
 " Phelim Mashee " represented as " sealing his soul with 
 a wafer," — in contempt to the holiest mystery, known to 
 Catholics, the Sacred Eucharist ? Why are intemperance 
 and vice set forth as the necessary and natural effects of 
 the Catholic Religion? All this put in the hands of Ca- 
 tholic children, by this society, claiming to deserve the 
 confidence of Catholic, parents ! 
 
 Now the Methodist gentleman says that all this is right 
 — that the Trustees could not possibly within the last ten 
 centuries, find history which would not be offensive to Ca- 
 tholics — and that to make it otherwise, it must be falsified. 
 Now, Sir, I should like to know, whether it can be expect- 
 ed that we should have any confidence in schools, for the 
 support of which we are taxed, in which our religious 
 feelings are insulted, our children perverted, and whose 
 advocates tell us gravely that we ought to be satisfied, that 
 things cannot be otherwise, unless history is to be falsi- 
 fied lor our convenience ! To this we never shall con- 
 sent. Religious intolerance has done much to degrade 
 us, and its most dangeious instrument was depriving us 
 of education. 
 
 The gentleman (Dr. Bond) has corrected some of my 
 remarks of last evening, on the Methodist Episcopal 
 Church. The fact is, the style of Remonstrance present- 
 ed here, as emanating from that church, imposed on me 
 the necessity of alluding to the history and principles of 
 that denomination. It is unpleasant to me at any time, to 
 use language calculated to wound the feelings of any sect 
 or class of my fellow citizens. But they who offer the 
 unprovoked insult, must not complain of the retoit. I 
 stated that the Methodists in England had never done a so- 
 litary act to aid in the spread of civil and religious liberty 
 in that country ; that whilst the Catholics aided the Dis- 
 senters in obtaining the repeal of the Test and Corpora- 
 tion Acts, the Methodists never contributed to that mea- 
 sure, by so much as one petition in its favour. But it 
 appears I fell into a mistake, which the gentleman cor- 
 rected with great precision and gravity. The " Metho- 
 dist Society," in England, he tells us, is something quite 
 different from the " Methodist Episcopal Church," in the 
 
51 
 
 United Stfdeg. The former consider themselves only as a 
 society in the Established Church, just as the religious 
 orders, the Dominicans, Jesuits, &c, are in the Catholic 
 communion. Certainly it is new to me to learn that the 
 Methodists and the church of England are in such close 
 and affectionate spiritual relationship. For although the 
 Methodists considerthemselves a society within the pale of 
 the Establishment, the members of the Established church 
 are quite of a different opinion, since it was only the other 
 day that I read of h Presbyter of that church having been 
 suspended by his Bishop, for having preached in a Method- 
 dist Meeting-house ! So that the affection of the Method- 
 ists for the Church of England, does not appear to be very 
 cordially reciprocated. 
 
 This gentleman tells us that the Methodists who are only a 
 'Society"m England are an ''Episcopal church in America.'' 
 ¥es, sir, Mr. Wesley, who was himself but a Priest, actually 
 consecrated a Bishop for the United States ! And hence the 
 Methodist Episcopal Church — a new order of Episcopacy, 
 deriving their authority and character from Mr. John VVes- 
 ley, a mere Priest. But with or without Bishops, their 
 whole history proves how much they imbibed of the intoler- 
 ance of the established Church of England, to which he tells 
 us they are so intimately allied in that country, but which at 
 all times spurns the connexion. This same John Wesley 
 held and wrote that no government ought to grant toleration 
 to Catholics — because, forsooth, either from ignorance of 
 Catholic doctrines or bigotry against them, he was pleased 
 to believe and assert falsely that they held it lawful to mur- 
 der heretics. When the government of Great Britain was 
 about to mitigate the code of penal laws and persecution 
 against the Catholics in 1780, who was more fervent and 
 fanatical in opposition to the exercise of mercy than John 
 Wesley ? The great object of the Protestant Association, 
 headed by Lord George Gordon, was to oppose the least 
 mitigation of severity. Who was more active in the intel- 
 lectual operations of that society than Mr. John Wesley ? 
 Under the leadership of Lord George Gordon they raised a 
 rebellion in that year, and when the mob had plundered, de. 
 stroyed, and burnt the houses and churchesof the Catholics, 
 spread consternation throughout the city of London, and caus- 
 ed human blood to flow in torrents, we have this same Wesley 
 with sanctimonious gravity charging it all on the Catholics 
 — the victims of its fury — and contending that it was a 
 "Popish plot." His services in that Association had been 
 acknowledged by a unanimous vote of thanks, dated Febru- 
 ary, 17th of that very year. This was in 17S0 — when the 
 mighty events which had occurred in this country taught the 
 British government the expediency of relaxing the penal 
 laws against so iarge a portion of her subjects in England 
 and Ireland. The rebound of those events had been felt 
 throughout tiie world. They were the events created and 
 accomplished by the great fathers of this Republic, then 
 struggling into existence ; and whilst Catholics and Protes- 
 tants fought bravely side by side in the ranks of indepen- 
 dence, — while a Catholic Carroll was signing its charter — 
 and another Carroll, a Priest, and (tell it not in Gath) a Je- 
 suit, was employed on an embassy to render the population 
 of Canada friendly, or at least not hostile to our struggle--- 
 whilst a Catholic Commodore Barry was doing the office of 
 a founder and father to our young and gallant Navy— what 
 ■was John Wesley doing? He was creeping to the British 
 throne to lay at the feet of His Majesty's government the offer 
 to raise a regiment and put them at the disposal of the crown, 
 expiessly to put down what lie called the "American Re- 
 
 Dellion,"---to crush the rising liberties of your infant country ! 
 
 Now, sir, I think I was authorized to state that the Me- 
 ■thodists have done as little for the spre >d of human liberty, 
 the rights and equality of mankind, as any other denomina- 
 tion — no maltur how old or how young. If they have not 
 done extensive mischief, of which the gentleman boasts, it is 
 to be remembered that they never possessed supreme civil 
 power, and that in the order of time they have been too insig- 
 nificant, andare still too juvenile tohavedone extensive evil. 
 If they have done private good as the gentleman contends, 
 I confess it reminds me of Stephen Girard's charity. He 
 was exceedingly rich ; and because he was rich, people 
 thought he was very wise. And inasmuch as he despised 
 all external show of religion, it was inferred he was very 
 charitable to the poor, without however making a display of 
 it. If it was so, no man ever practiced better the counsel 
 of the Gospel " not to let the left hand know what the right 
 hand doeth" in the matter. It was so private that no one 
 ever could find it out. So it is with the Methodist Church 
 with regard to any public benefit ever conferred on mankind 
 — we have yet to hear of it. 
 
 I will now satisfy the gentleman on another subject which 
 seems to trouble him and on which he "should like to know." 
 And as other gentlemen have alluded to it, I hope the same 
 explanation will suffice in reply to them all. 
 
 Before the British government released the Catholics from 
 the penalties under which they labored, among which not 
 the least was the exclusion of the schoolmaster, they called 
 upon them to disavow principles which they knew Catholics 
 did not entertain. But in order to reconcile the prejudices 
 of the English people, lhey had an investigation of those 
 imputed principles before the houses of Parliament— they 
 called upon some distinguished Catholic citizens and ques- 
 tioned them on several points such as those the gentleman 
 has so frequently referred to, among which was the spiritual 
 authority of the Pope. From the testimony which they took 
 I now quote. It is part of the testimony of Dr. Doyle, 
 Bishop ofKildare — but other Bishops and public men were 
 all examined on the same subject. 
 
 Question. "Accoiding to the princ pies which govern 
 the Roman Catholic Church in Ireland, has the Pope any 
 authority to issue commands, ordinances, or injunctions, 
 general or special, without the consent of the King?" 
 
 Answer. " He has." 
 
 Question. "If he should issue such orders, are the sub- 
 jects of His Majesty, particularly the clergy, bound to obey 
 them ?" 
 
 Answer. " The orders that he has a right to issue must 
 regard things that are of a spiritual nature ; and when his 
 commands regard such things the clergy are bound to obey 
 them ; but were he to issue commands regarding things not 
 spiritual, the clergy are not in anywise bound to obey them." 
 
 Consequently if His Holiness, as the gentleman, Mr. 
 Ketchum, said, should forbid the reading of the Declaration 
 of Independence, it would not be of any authority. 
 
 Mr. Ketchum. Does the book say so? 
 
 Bishop Hughes. I am authority myself in matters of 
 my religion. Surely, sir, I am not here to betray it, and 
 1 am astonished that the gentleman is not better acquainted 
 with history on the matter. He amused us a little while 
 ago with the idea of what terrible consequences might en- 
 sue if the Pope, a " foreign potentate," should forbid us to 
 read the Declaration of Independence — or forbid the read- 
 ing of the Bible in our Common Schools. He even apo- 
 logized for his alarm with singular simplicity — " ho meant 
 
52 
 
 no reflection. This matter had come out in evidence 
 here." It was then, sir, I wondered at his not having 
 read history, or having read it to so little advantage. 
 
 Did he not know, that long before the Declaration of 
 Independence, Venice rose out of the sea, a Catholic state, 
 with all her republican glory round about her f And 
 when the Pope, in his capacity of " foreign potentate," 
 attempted to invade her temporal rights, her Catholic sons 
 did what they ought to have done, they unsheathed their 
 swords and routed his troops. Did they thereby forfeit 
 their allegiance to him as spiritual head of the church on 
 earth ? Not an iota of it. To a man who reads history 
 and understands it, this fact alone points out the difference, 
 in the creed of Catholics, between the Pope and the Poten- 
 tate. The Venitians knew that the Pope in his spiritual 
 capacity, belongs to a kingdom which is not of this world. 
 And the allegiance of Catholics to him, out of his own 
 small dominions, is due to him only in his spiritual capa. 
 city. Whatever temporal right was acquired over inde- 
 pendent states by the Popes in former ages, was owing to 
 no principle of Catholic doctrine, but purely to the disor- 
 ders uf the times and the pusillanimity of weak ruL-rs, who in 
 order to secure the Pope's protection, made themselves his 
 vassals. The Popes in such circumstances would have bet n 
 mere or less than men, had they refused to embrace these 
 opportunities of aggrandizement so placed within their 
 reach, and often pressed upon them. Now every Cath- 
 olic is familiar with this view of the subjeel, and yet, 
 except a few of larger minds and better education, it 
 lias hardly penetrated the density of protestant prejudice. 
 Hence you hear them giving the most absurd construction to 
 the duties of Catholics between the supposed conflicting 
 claims of their country, and the imputed principles of 
 their religion. Permit me here to call your attention to 
 the true and beautiful exposition of the case as set forth 
 in the language of a gentleman, who, though a Catho- 
 lie, is acknowledged to be a man of as high honor, as 
 lofty and patriotic principles, and as unblemished a cha- 
 ractei, as any man the nation can boast of; I mean 
 Judge Gaston of North Carolina. The state has no 
 son of whom she is, or ought be, prouder. And yet 
 up till within a few years, the latvs of that state disqua- 
 lified a Catholic from holding any, even the office of a 
 constable. In a speech made by Judge Gaston in the 
 Covention for revising the State Constitution, in reference 
 to this matter, he says . 
 
 " But it has been objected, lhatthe Catholic religion is unfavora- 
 ble lo freedom, nay even incompatible with republican institutions, 
 ingenious speculations on such matters are worth little, and prove 
 still less. Let me ask who obtained the great charier of English 
 freedom, but the Catholic prelates, and barons at Runnemede ?— 
 The oldest — the purest democracy on earth, is the little Catholic 
 republic of St. Mavino, not a day's journey from Rome. It has ex- 
 isted now for fourteeti hundred years, and is sojealcus of arbitraiy 
 power, that the executive authority is divided between two Govern- 
 ors, who are elected every three months. Was William Tell, the 
 founder of Swiss liberty, a royalist 1 Are the Catholics of the 
 Swiss cantons in love with tyranny's Are the Irish Catholics 
 friends to passive obedience and non-resistance 1 Was Lafayette, 
 Pulaski, or Kosciusko, a foe to civ il treedom ? Was Charles Car 
 roll, of Carrollton, unwilling to jeopard fortune in the cause of lib- 
 erty ? Let me give you however, the testimony of George Wash- 
 ington. On his accession to the Presidency, he was addressed by 
 the American Catholics, who adverting to the restrictions on their 
 worship then existing in some of the States, expressed themselves 
 thus — "The prospect of national prosperity is peculiarly pleasing 
 to us on another account; because while our country preserves her 
 freedom and independence we shall have well lounded title lo 
 claim from her justice the equal rights of citizenship as the price 
 of our blood spilt under your eye, and of our common exeriions 
 
 for her defence under your auspicious conduct.' ' This great man, 
 
 who was utterly incapable of flatiery and deceit, utiers in aswer the 
 following sentiments, which 1 give in h a own words: "As man- 
 kind become moie liberal, they will be more apt to allow that all 
 those who conduct themselves as worthy members of the commu- 
 nity are equally entitled lo the protection of civil government. I 
 hope ever to see America among the foremost nations in examples 
 of justice and liberality ; and I presume that your fellow-citizens 
 will never forget the patriotic part which y< u look in the accom- 
 plishment of their revolution, and the establishment ol their govern- 
 ment, or the important assistance which they received from a na- 
 tion in which the Roman Catholic faith is professed." By the by, 
 sir, I would pause for a moment tocall the attention of this commit- 
 tee to some of the names subscribed lo ibis address. Among (hem 
 are those cf Jo n Carroll, ihe first Roman Catholic bishop of the 
 United Stales, Charles Carroll, of Carrollton, and Thomas Fitz- 
 simroons; for ihe characters of these distinguished men, if they 
 needed vouchers, I would confidently call on ihe venerable Pren- 
 dent of this Convention. Bishop Carroll was one of the best men 
 and most humble and devout ol'Chrisiians. I shall never forget a 
 tribute to his memory paid by ihe good and venerable Protestant 
 Bishop White, when contrasting the pi«iy with which the Christian 
 Carroll mei death, with the cold trilling that characterized the last 
 moments of the sceptical David Hume. I know not whether the 
 iribuie was more honorable to ihe piety of the dead, or to the chari- 
 ly of the living prelate. Charles Carroll of Carrol. ion, ihe last s.ur- 
 vivcr of the signers of American Independence— at whose death 
 both houses of the legislature of North Carolina unanimously testi- 
 fied their sorrow, as at a national bereavement ! Thomas Kiizsim- 
 mons, one of the illustrious convention that framed the Constitution 
 of the United Stales, and for several years the Representative in 
 Congress from the city of Philadelphia. Were lhe.se, and such a-, 
 these, foes to freedom and unfit for republicanism 1 Would it be 
 dangerous to permit such men to be sheriffs and constables in the 
 land? Read the funeral eulogium of Charles Carroll, delivered 
 at Rome by Bishop England— one of the greatest ornaments of 
 the American Caiholic Church — a foreigner indeed t y birth, but 
 an American by adoption, and who becoming an American, solemn- 
 ly abjured all allegiance to every foreign king, prince, and potentate 
 whatever — that eulogium which v/asso much carped at by English 
 royalists and English tories— and I ihink you will find it democrat- 
 ic enough to suit the taste and find an echo in the heart of ih stern- 
 est republican amongst us. Catholics are of all countries, ot all 
 governments, ol all political creeds. In all ihey are taught that the 
 kingdom of Christ is not of this world — and that it is their duty to 
 render unto Cae>er the things that are Caesar's, and unto God the 
 things that are God's." 
 
 I shall now proceed with tha testimony of the Irish 
 Bishops in order, which was interrupted by the gentleman's 
 
 question. 
 
 Here, sir, is the testimony of another Bishop — Dr. 
 Murray, the present Archbishop of Dublin, before a 
 Committee of the British Parliament. 
 
 M To what extent and in what manner, does a Catholic 
 profess to obey the Tope ? — Solely in spiritual milters, or 
 in such mixed matters as came under his government, 
 such as marriage for instance, which we hold to be a sa- 
 crament as well as a civil contract ; as it is a sacrament, 
 it is a spiritual thing, and comes under the jurisdiction of 
 the Pope ; of course he has authority over that spiritual 
 part of it ; but this authority does not affect the civil rights 
 of the individuals contracting. 
 
 " Does this obedience detract from what is due by a Cath- 
 olic to the state under which he lives? — Not in the least ; 
 the powers are wholly distinct. 
 
 " Does it justify an objection that is made to Catholics, 
 that their allegiance is divided ? Their allegiance in civil 
 matters is completely undivided. 
 
 "Is the duty which the Catholic owes to the Pope, and 
 the duty which he owes to the King, really and substanti- 
 ally distinct ? Wholly distinct! 
 
 " How far is the claim, that some Popes have set up to 
 Temporal Authority, opposed to Scripture and Tradition ? 
 As far as it may have been exercised as coming from a 
 right granted to him by God, it appears to me to be con- 
 
f>3 
 
 trary to scripture and tradition; but as far as it may hiive 
 bee;i exercised in consequence of a right conferred on 
 him by the different Christian powers, who looked up to 
 him at one lime, as the great parent of Christendom, who 
 appointed him as the arbitrator of their concerns, many of 
 whom submitted their kingdoms to him, and laid them at 
 his feet, consenting to receive them back from him as fiefs, 
 the case is different. The power that he exercised under 
 that authority, of course passed away, when those temporal 
 princes, who granted it, chose to withdraw it. His spiritu- 
 al power does not allow him to dethrone kings, or to ab- 
 solve their subjects from the allegiance due to them ; and 
 any attempt of that kind I would consider contrary to 
 scripture and tradition. 
 
 " Does the Pope now dispose of temporal affairs within the 
 kingdoms of any of the princes of the Continent? Not 
 that I am aware of; I am sure he does not. 
 
 " Do the Catholic clergy admit that all the bulls of the 
 Pope are entitled to obedience ? They are entitled to a 
 certain degree of reverence. If not contrary to our 
 usages, or contrary to the law of God, of course they are 
 entitled to obedience, as coming from a superior. We owe 
 obedience to a parent, we owe obedience to the King, we 
 owe it to the law ; but if a parent, the King, or the law, 
 were to order us to do any thing that is wrong, we would 
 deem it a duty to say, as the Apostles did on another oc. 
 casion, " We ought to obey God rather than men." 
 
 " Are there circumstances under which the Catholic cler- 
 gy would not obey a bull of the Pope ? Most certainly. 
 
 " What is the true meaning of the following words, in the 
 creed of Pius the Fourth : " I promise and swear true 
 obedience to the Roman Bishop, the Successor of Saint 
 Peter?" Canonical obedience, in the manner I have just 
 described, within the sphere of his own authority. 
 
 " What do the principles of the Catholic religion teach, in 
 respect to the performance of civil duties ? They teach 
 that the performance of civil duties is a conscientious obli- 
 gation which the law of God imposes on us. 
 
 •'Is the divine law then quite clear, as to the allegiance 
 due by subjects to their prince ? Quite clear. 
 
 " In what books are to be found the most authentic exposi- 
 tion of the Faith of the Catholic church? In that very 
 creed that has been mentioned, the creed of Pius the 
 Fourth; in the catechism which was published by the di- 
 rection of the Council of Trent, called " I he Roman Cate- 
 chism,"or " The Catechism of the Council of Trent;" 
 " An Exposition of the Catholic Faith, by the Bishop of 
 Meaux, Bossuet;" "Verron's Rule of Faith;" "Elolden's 
 Analysis of Faith " and several others." 
 
 Such is the character and limitation of the Pope's au- 
 thority, attested under oath, by Bishops and other Catholic 
 dignitaries before the British Parliament. The Catholics 
 of Great Britain and Ireland had been bowed down to the 
 earth, by penal laws and persecution during 300 years — 
 with nothing between them and the enjoyment of all their 
 rights, but the solemnity of an oath. If their conscience 
 had permitted them to swear what they did not believe, they 
 might have entered on their political rights at any time, and 
 yet as martyrs to the sacredness of conscience they re- 
 sisted. 
 
 I have now, sir, supplied the Reverend gentleman, who 
 presented the remonstrance from the Methodist Episcopal 
 church, will all the information which the occasion permits 
 on the subjec t of the Pope's authority. But there is a 
 good deal more to which if time allowed, 1 might address 
 myself. He became very logical and insisted on the fact , 
 
 that the doctrines of the catholic church are always the same, 
 immutable. He says, that we boast of this, and we do so, 
 most assuredly. From the hour when they were revealed and 
 taught by Divine authority until the present, — from the ris- 
 ing to the setting of the sun, the faith of the Catholic be. 
 liever, and the doctrines of the Catholic church, are ever- 
 lastingly and universally the same. But then he concludes 
 that as Catholics in some instances in former times, perse- 
 cuted, — so, their religion being always the same, they are 
 still bound to peisecute, or else disavow the doctrine, as 
 Protestants do. Now, sir, we do disavow and despise the 
 doctrine of pesecution in ail its essence and forms. But 
 does it follow, that by this, we disavow any doctrine of the 
 Catholic church ? By no means. And this proves that 
 persecution never was any portion of the Catholic faith ; 
 for if it had been, the denial of it would cut us off from her 
 communion. The church we believe, by the promise and 
 supeiintendance of Ch'-ist her invisible head and founder, 
 to be infallible. She received the deposit of the doctrines 
 revealed by Our Redeemer and his Apostles ; her office 
 is to witness, teach, and preserve them. These alone con- 
 stitute the religious creed and doctrines of the Catholic 
 church and her members. We believe in a Trinity, the 
 Incarnation of Christ, the Redemption by his death, the 
 divine Institution of the church. These and whatever the 
 church holds, as of Divine P-evelation, are the doclrines of 
 our Catholic unity. And the individual, who is now ad- 
 dressing you, and the Catholic martyr, who is at this mo- 
 ment perhaps bleeding for his faith in China, — for the 
 church has her martyrs still ; hold and believe identically 
 the same doctrines. But as there is unity in faith, so there 
 is, in the church, freedom of opinion on matters which are 
 not determined by any specific revelation. Hence we are 
 Republicans, or Monarchists, according Ij individual pre- 
 ference, or the prevailing genius of the country, we belong 
 to. Hence, when the Catholic divines at Rheims were 
 appending these notes to their edition of the New Testa- 
 ment, the Catholic Bishops of Poland, with her 22 millions, 
 were opening the doors of the Constitution to the fugitive 
 Protestants of Germany, fleeing from the intolerance & per- 
 secution of their fellow protestants. The one act is as 
 much a Catholic doctrine as the other, because in both) 
 cases the agents acted, not by the authority of the church, 
 but in the exercise of that individual judgment for which 
 their account stands to God. 
 
 But 1 must be brief. I cannot follow so many learned 
 speakers through so much matter that is foreign to the sub- 
 ject ; for I agree with the medical gentleman, who said 
 that neither the Catholic nor the Protestant religion was 
 on trial here, it is not religious creeds thai are to be tesied 
 by this council. I have however, given this explanation, 
 and I trust it will be received, though it may have been te- 
 dious, as having its apology in the remarks, which called it 
 forth. I only wish that the gentlen.a l, who made the ob- 
 servation had made it one hour and a half sooner ; it would 
 have saved all I have said on the subject. 
 
 But this speaker also, [Doctor Reese] lectured me for 
 attending certain meetings, as if it were a descent from 
 my dignity to find myself in an assembly of Freemen. 1 
 did not consider it as a descent. But really when 1 came 
 here in the simple character of a citizen, I did not think I 
 should be vested with my official lobes for the purpose of 
 being attacked. Individuals as respectable as he attended 
 those meetings, and I consider it no disgrace to have bet-n 
 there or here ; for even if this petition came not from 
 Catholics, but from Methodists or any other Protestant do- 
 
nomination, whose consciences were violated by tliis sys- 
 tem, I should be found in their midst supporting their claim. 
 Let me add too, that I would rather be so found, than for 
 all the exchequer of the Public School Society, exchange 
 places with gentlemen, and have conscience and right for 
 my opponents. He also contended, that this want of con- 
 fidence in Catholics was the result of my appeals, forget- 
 ting that the state of things which is now brought under pub- 
 lic notice has existed for years, by efforts to provide a 
 safe education for our children, long before those meetings 
 were called, and before I attended them. And besides I 
 conceive it is my bounden duty, if I saw principles incul- 
 cated which will sap the young minds of our children, and 
 I have no doubt this honorable board will say it is my duty, 
 to warn them, and to bring them within the pale of that au- 
 thority, which they acknowledge. I wonder if Pre^byte- 
 rian gentlemen would seo Catholic books, circulated 
 amongst their childen, and not warn their people; against 
 them? I wonder, if these books contained reading lessons 
 about Calvin and the unhappy burning of Servetus, whether 
 they would not warn their people. I say, if they believe in 
 their religion, they would be in the discharge of their duty. 
 And while on this subject it occurs to me at (his moment, 
 tint in the wide range of observation which has been taken, 
 reference has been made to national education in Ireland. 
 And we are told that after books had been agreed upon, 
 iha Bishops sent the question to Rome; to be decided by the 
 Pope. What question? Can they tell ? for I am sure I 
 cannot. To ".his day, I have never understood the exact na- 
 uic of the leforencc to the Pope, but sir.this is no extraordi. 
 nary thing. Under the jealous. eye of the British Govern- 
 ment, even in the darkest hour of her cruelty to Catholics, 
 their in'ercourse with Rome was not interrupted. But while 
 that collection and compilation of scripture lessons was 
 agreed on in the more Catholic parts of the country where 
 the population is divided between Protestants and Catholic, 
 what is the fact ? Why in another part, the North of Ire- 
 land, where the Presbyterians are more numerous, they 
 had conscientious objections to this selection of scripture, 
 they asserted their objections, and the British Government 
 recognized them ; and thus while these lessons, by agree. 
 ment,were in general use,an exception was made in favor of 
 the Presbyterians,who had objections to the use of any thing 
 but the naked word of God, and I say, honor to those Presby- 
 terians. The Catholics sent in no remonstrance. But if the 
 rule applied to their case, by what authority will your hon- 
 orable body determine that it shall not apply to ours ? Oh ! I 
 perceive. The gentleman whose remarks, I am reviewing 
 reasoned on un:il he arrived at the conclusion, that there 
 were no conscientious grounds for our objection at a 1- 
 True, we said we had ; but he could not see what con- 
 science had to do with a matter so plain. He said, here 
 the community had built up a beautilul system ; it was 
 doing good ; he asked shall we put it aside in deference to 
 pretended scruples ? Now, tell me when the despotism of 
 
 intolerance ever said any thing else than this ? 
 
 Why the established Church of England, said "we are do- 
 ing good," " our doors are open to all," the minister is at 
 the desk, and the bread of life is distributed for the public 
 good." What then ? What business have these unhappy 
 parents to find fault, for conscience sake, and squeamish- 
 ness? Now sir, objections can exist to the slightest shade 
 of violation to our conscience, and therefore, I did not ex- 
 pect to hear this argument at this time of day. But the 
 gentleman speaks of my addressing the public meetings to 
 
 which he has alluded, as though my speaking there had 
 
 been the cause instead of the consequence of the scruples 
 of our people. Then it was I joined them to seek u reme. 
 dy, for our just complaint, but if in your wisdom this body 
 shall think proper to deny it as we must bear it. 
 
 He contended again that it would be turning the pub- 
 lic money' to private uses. Tliat seems to me to have 
 been fully answered. He also contended that it would be 
 the giving of the money of the State to support religion. 
 That I have disputed ; for if so I shall have no objection to 
 join those gentlemen in their remonstrance. But at the 
 same time it does appear strange to me that the gentleman, 
 who pretends to have read the scriptures with so much at- 
 tention, should not hav e learned that principle — the most ge- 
 neral, sir, and the most infallible of Christian principles for 
 the guidance of our conduct — " Do unto others as v» 
 
 WOULD THAT OTHERS SHOULD DO UNTO YOU." That i* 
 
 the principle,; and is it not strange that such opposition 
 should be made to us when i( is known that money raised 
 by public tax, goes to the support of literature under the su- 
 pervision of the Methodist Episcopal Church? And 
 why do not Catholics object to that? Because the tax does 
 not belong to any particular sect; it is thrown into a com- 
 mon fund and applied to such uses as the legislature in its 
 wisdom thinks proper. Wc sir, however, ask for our own 
 and nothing else. But if you say that we shall be taxed for 
 a system which is so organized that we cannot participate in 
 it without detriment to the religious rights of our ch.ldren, 
 then I say that injustice is done even to our civil rights; for 
 taxation is the basis of even civil rights. And I was not 
 a little struck in the course of the argument, that some gen- 
 tleman should refer with so much emphasis as to a circum- 
 stance novel and unparalleled even in social lite — that a 
 certain class of gentlemen should petition for what? The 
 privilege of being taxed ! They deemed it a privilege ; and 
 that was wonderful ! and merit was ascribed to them for it. 
 les, sir, but did it go to the extent only of their own pock- 
 ets? Or did it not reach the pockete equally of those who 
 did not petition? If to themselves only, it was all fair, 
 and proper, disinterested and patriotic: but great emphasis 
 was laid on this class being most "intelligent," and "weal- 
 thy," and " respectable," nobility almost, as though a question 
 of this kind was intended for a particular class. But let 
 me tell you the honest man who occupies only a bed in a 
 garret, is also a taxpayer. Why give him a vote ? Be- 
 cause he pays tax for the space he occupies. If he occu- 
 pies a room and pays the tax, his rent is less — if the land- 
 lord pays, his rent is so much more. So, if he occupies a 
 garret — or if he boards, it goes down to that, for the person 
 who keeps the boarding house pays the rent; if that tax is 
 paid by the boarding house keeper the rent is so much less, 
 than if the tax was paid by the landlord. If the boarding 
 house keeper pays the tax he charges more for board. So 
 that the boarder is a tax payer, and it is so understood in our 
 broad and excellent system of representation. The exclu- 
 sive merit of this tax, then, is not to be given to any parti- 
 cular class, no matter how wealthy ; and I was surprised 
 that so much emphasis should be laid on it. I did not sup- 
 pose that the interests of the poor were to be sacrificed to 
 the respectability of the rich. The poor pay too, and it is 
 a beautiful and admirable thing to see what a dignity this 
 confers on human nature — what an interest this excites in 
 the poor. I recollect passing along a street some time 
 since, and I observed a little house, almost a shed or hovel, 
 some fourteen or sixteen feet square, which was too small 
 
55 
 
 to be divided into two compartments. It had but one win- 
 dow, and this had originally had lour panes of glass, but 
 one having been broken it was darkened. There had been 
 some political party triumph ; the boys in the streets had 
 their drums out and there appeared to be apopular rejoic- 
 ing, and there I saw three lights burning in the window of 
 this poor habitation. I was amused to see that a man liv- 
 ing in so poor a hovel, and unable to buy a fourth pane ot 
 glass should find means to light the other three. But on 
 further reflection I said to myself, ''there is philosophy 
 there." What other nation can exhibit such a spectacle J 
 This poor man who must toil till the day he goes to his 
 grave, participates in a political triumph. His bread has 
 to be earned by daily toil, nevertheless, though the triumph 
 perhaps will never benefit him, he exhibits a glorious spec- 
 tacle to the world. He is a man — he feels it is recognized. 
 It is a nation's homage offered to human nature. He is a 
 man and a citizen ; and on reflection I was delighted at 
 a spectacle so glorious as this. 
 
 But returning to the subject, they say all religion is left to 
 voluntary contribution. Now is this true in the sense in 
 which it is here applied ? Are not chaplains appointed to pub- 
 lic institutions which are supported by the public money ? 
 And have you not given it to the Protestant Orphan Assylum, 
 and the half orphan assylum? Have you not given it to the 
 Catholic Benevolent Society ? And do you suppose the Wes- 
 leyan Catechism is taught there 1 Do you suppose the Ca- 
 tholic Catechism is taught in the Protestant Asylums? One 
 gentleman argued that you had not power to do this. But 
 if you have doue it, does not that prove that you had the 
 power? If you had power to do that you have power equal- 
 ly to do this. I shall go further. I lind in the Report of 
 the Regents of the University, that the Genesee Wesleyan 
 Seminary — Theological Seminary, as I understand — has 
 last year received $1,395 56 of the public money. This 
 is not exclusively literary as I understand it — 
 
 Dr. Bangs. Altogether literary. 
 
 Bishop Hughes. I was under the impression that it 
 was Theological, and that religion was admitted. But 
 those in this city furnish evidence that a religious profession 
 does not disqualify. 
 
 I believe now sir, I have gone through the substance at 
 least, if not through every particular, of what has been said 
 by the gentlemen who interpose their remonstrances and 
 their arguments in opposition to our rightful claim. I will 
 now read one authority, and I am the more willing because 
 it is from the public school society themselves. It is from 
 the memorial which they presented to the Legislature in the 
 Session of 1823, in which they state, page 7, " It will not 
 be denied" — recollect I do not quote this to show that our 
 petition ought to be granted; but that whatever opinion 
 these gentlemen may now have of trie unconstitutionality of 
 granting this claim, they saw nothing unconstitutional in 
 the practice then, and I know of nothing so far as the con- 
 stitution is concerned, neither of the state, nor of the United 
 States — I know of no enactment which should change their 
 opinion. 
 
 "It will not be denied, in this enlightened age, that the 
 education of the poor is enjoined by our holy religion, and 
 is therefore, one of the duties of a Christian Church. Nor 
 is there any impropriety in committing the school fund to 
 the hands of a religious society, so long as they are confin- 
 ed in the appropriation of it, to an object not necessarily 
 connected, or intermingled with the other concerns of the 
 church, as for instance to the payment ol" teachers, because 
 
 the state is sure in this case, that the benefits of the fund, 
 in the way it designed to confer them, will be reaped by the 
 poor. But the objection to the section, sought to be repeal- 
 ed is, that the surplus monies, after the payment of teach- 
 ers, is vested in the hands of the trustees of a religious so- 
 ciety, and mingled with its other funds, to be appiopiiated 
 to the erection of buildings under the control of the trustees, 
 which buildings may, and in all probability will, be used for 
 other purposes than school houses." 
 
 That is the statement of the Public School Society itself ; 
 and throughout this document — while the gentlemen here 
 have been wielding against our petition the influence of le- 
 spectable and wealthy classes — I find that before the acquisi- 
 tion of their monopoly, they advocated the claims of the 
 poor who cannot b uy education — sometimes scarcely bread. 
 This is the class to whose welfare the eye of the enlighten- 
 ed, the patriotic, and the benevolent should be directed — 
 this is the class that essentially requires education. Thus 
 they say, " The school fund is designed for a civil purpose, 
 for such is the education oj the poor." 
 
 Again, they say that the New York Free School (that 
 was their own Society) has "one single object, the educa- 
 tion of the poor." Again, the Board of Trustees is annu- 
 ally chosen, &c, "for the education oj the poor." And 
 yet now I could point out thousands of our poor who are 
 destitute of education, and who have no. means to provide 
 it. We do what we can, but we are too limited in means 
 to raise, of ourselves, a sufficient fund ; we have laboured 
 under great disadvantages; we have taught the catechism in 
 our schools because while we supported them we had the 
 right to do so ; but if you put them on the (doting of the 
 common schools we shall be satisfied, and the state will se- 
 cure the education of our children ; you will secure them 
 an education on the basis of morality, for they had belter 
 be brought up under the morality of our religion, though 
 gentlemen object, than none at all. They say the objection 
 to the present schools is that there they are made Protes- 
 tants. No, sir, it is because they are made JYothingarians, 
 for we cannot tell what they are. I have now concluded, 
 and if I have been obliged to trespass long upon your pa- 
 tience, recollect as some extenuation, that I had a great 
 deal to reply to in the arguments of gentlemen which were 
 urged to overthrow the principles of our petition, Lut 
 had no bearing on the petition at all. We do not ask for 
 the elevation of the Catholics over others ; but for the pro- 
 tection to which all are entitled. The question is exceed- 
 ingly plain, and simple. If it has orcan be shown that we 
 are claiming this money for sectarian purposes, then I 
 should advise you to withhold it. But if in honesty, and 
 truth, and sincerity, it is a right belonging to us as citizens, 
 to receive our pro rata, then we appeal to you with confi- 
 dence. 
 
 From the sentiments expressed here on behalf of the 
 Public School Society, you can judge of the chance that 
 Catholic children have in those schools, to have their reli- 
 gious rights respected. It will be, as perhaps it has been, 
 considered a great and a good work to detach them from a 
 religion which is supposed " to teach the lawfulness of mur- 
 dering heretics." Infidelity itself will be considered pre- 
 ferable to Catholicism in their regard, lor one Rev. gentle- 
 man has told you that if there was no alternative, he would 
 embrace the doctrines of Voltaire, rather than the religion 
 of a Chcverus or a Fenclon. If the Catholics have been 
 obliged to keep their children from those schools in time 
 past, you may imagine what effects these sentiments, this 
 
animus of the system is likely to have on their minds for 
 the time to come. But if it is our religious right to have a 
 conscience at all, do not take pains to pervert it, for we 
 shall not be better citizens afterwards. Do not teach us to 
 slight the admonitions of our conscience. Reverse our 
 case and make it your own, and then you will be able to 
 judge. Make it your own case, and suppose your children 
 were in the case of those poor children for whom I plead ; 
 then suppose what your feelings would be if the blessings of 
 education were provided bountifully by the State, and you 
 were unable to participate in those blessings, unless you 
 were willing to submit that your conscience should be 
 trenched upon. 
 
 Here the Right Rev. Prekt? sat d;wn after raving spo- 
 ken for nearly thre, hours and a half. 
 
 Dk. Bangs. I wish simply to correct an error into 
 which (he Rev. gentleman has fallen, respecting an obser- 
 vation I made as to a matter of fact. I believe he under- 
 stood me to say that it was my opinion the legislature ought 
 to take the children of Catholics and compell them to at- 
 tend the schools. If so, he misunderstood me. I meant 
 to say that those children that do not go to any schools 
 ought to be compelled to go to the public schools. 
 
 A brief conversation ensued between the Right Rev. 
 Bishop Hughes, and Dr. Bond in explanation of the charge 
 made against John Wesley that he had aided or excited 
 Lord George Gordon's mob. 
 
 The Right Rev. Bishop Hughes. Might I be allow- 
 ed to read the passage from the chapter on "the character 
 of Christ" by the Bishop of London, to which reference has 
 been had. Speaking of Jesus Christ it says: 
 
 " His answers to the many insidious questions that were 
 put to him, showed uncommon quickness of conception, 
 soundness of judgment and presence of mind ; completely 
 baffled all the artifices and malice of his enemies ; and ena- 
 bled him to elude all the snares that were laid for him." 
 
 Mr. Ketchum rose and said, I wish, sir, to say a few 
 words in explanation. I do not wish to continue the theo- 
 logical discussion, but to make a few remarks on the pre- 
 cise issue before the Board. 
 
 The Chairman — That has, I apprehend, been very fully 
 debated. 
 
 Mr. Ketchum — I desire to make a remark in reply to 
 the gentleman on the other side, in reference to the publi- 
 cation of the Bishop of London. But first, sir, the rever- 
 end gentleman, has endeavored, with great dexterity, to 
 place this case upon the consciences of the Catholic Socie- 
 ty. He has represented the decision of this Board against 
 their petition, as a violation of the rights of conscience. — 
 He well knows the favorable attitude in which they stand, 
 who appear to be persecuted for conscience sake. Does 
 the reverend gentleman mean to say here, he has consci- 
 entious scruples against these schools as public institutions? 
 Does he mean to affirm here, that they have not performed 
 all they promised — : namely, to give a good, secular educa- 
 tion to the poor ? No, that is not affirmed. Whatever he 
 may have stated, and whatever he may have contradicted, 
 throughout the length of his address, he made no such de- 
 claration. But the Roman Catholics have conscientious 
 scruples — tney cannot send their children to these schools 
 without sacrificing their right of conscience! Now the 
 "Friends" cannot send their children to these schools, be- 
 cause they believe, in their consciences, that they ought to 
 educate their own children ; but can the Friends say they 
 pie opposed, upon conscientious grounds, to these schools? 
 
 They are established by a public act of the State, for a pub- 
 lic purpose, and they ha ve accomplished their purpose — they 
 have furnished all the education they promised. But now 
 the reverend gentleman says, his conscience, and the < <>u- 
 sciences of the Roman Catholic community are violated, 
 
 because they cannot send their children to these schools. 
 
 Do th y mean to say they have conscientious scruples 
 against paying their portion of the tax for the support of 
 these schools ? It might well be that some denominations 
 of Christians, have conscientious scruples against sending 
 their poor to be taken care of at the alms-house ; but would 
 they have the right to say that they would not therefore be 
 taxed for the support of the poor? The conscientious scru- 
 ple here is not against paying the tax, but against sending 
 their children to these schools: now, who compels them 1 
 Dobs the State interfere and say they shall send their chil- 
 dren to these schools? The State says that they, in com- 
 mon with others, shall pay the tax to support these institu- 
 tions of learning: have they alleged that their consciences 
 are violated by paying this tax? Can they say so? No. 
 Wherein then consists this pressure on their consciences? 
 
 Now, Mr. President, allow me to take another view of 
 this conscientious objection. If I am taxed to support the 
 religion of the Roman Catholics, my conscience is violat- 
 ed, because I am compelled to pay a tax to suppoit that, 
 which I believe ought not to be supported. If you establish 
 these sectarian schools through this community, and make 
 Protestants pay for Catholic schools, then indeed you in- 
 fringe the right of conscience, because you compel them to 
 do that which is a violation of their consciences.. But we 
 do not compel them to attend these schools. We receive 
 this public bounty, and we come here and account for 
 the manner in which we use it. The gentleman does not 
 object to this. He does not object to our doing good to 
 the children that do come. That is not the objection ; but 
 he objects that he cannot send his children. He pays a tax 
 for a necessary public purpose — admitted to be necessary 
 — but because he cannot come in and participate, he in- 
 sists that this public fund shall be taken by the Roman Ca- 
 tholics, by the Methodists, by any and every other denomi- 
 nation, to support their religion. Grant this, and then in- 
 deed you will infringe the right of conscience. I do not 
 mean that the reverend gentleman shall have the advantage 
 here of standing on this right of conscience. The con- 
 sciences of thousands and tens of thousands of this com- 
 munity will be violated, if they are to be compelled to pay 
 a tax to the public treasury, and from thence to make reli- 
 gionists of a description that they oppose. I want this 
 matter to be set right, not only in the estimation of this 
 Board, but of the public. I want them to see what this op- 
 pression of conscience is. If it is any where it is on those 
 who pay the tax of which they do not in their conscience 
 approve ; the pressure is not on the man that cannot send 
 his children to participate in the fund. I cannot send my 
 children to these schools. There are obstacles in the way 
 as formidable as the gentleman's conscience. There are 
 obstacles perhaps with tens of thousands w ho pay the tax, 
 but do not participate, and who cannot participate, because 
 this obstacle exists. But have they the right to say they 
 will withhold their tax? Would the State listen to such an 
 objection ? No ; the State has established these public in- 
 stitutions for a necessary public purpose; every man must 
 be taxed for their support; and if he does not avail himself 
 of them, it must be his own fault, or his own peculiarities 
 perhaps. And now what, after all, is the objection to these 
 
57 
 
 •chools? Why from the beginning to the end of this 
 three hours speech, we have heard that these books con- 
 tain passages that reflect on Catholics. 
 
 The Chairman interposed. 
 
 Mr. Ketchum continued. This is new matter so far as 
 I am concerned. From the beginning to the end of the 
 gentleman's speech, we have heard that the books used in 
 these public schools, contain passages that reflect on Roman 
 Catholics. Now I submit to any fair, candid man, if this 
 is the time of day to bring such a charge. The books have 
 been placed in the hands of the reverend gentleman ; he 
 has been asked to put his finger on any objectionable pas- 
 sages, that the Board might pass a resolution for its expur- 
 gation ; and now the gentleman comes here and lays great 
 stress on, and urges as an argument against the system from 
 the beginning to the end, the passages which the trustees 
 offered to expunge. Sir, when the trustees offered to ex- 
 punge the passages, in all fairness and candor, they were to 
 be considered, for the true purposes of this argument, as ex- 
 punged. And if they were expunged, what would become 
 of three-fourths of the gentleman's speech ; all indeed, ex- 
 
 cept the theological part? And now tne next great topic is 
 the Bible. 
 
 The President. — The gentleman is not in order. 
 
 Mr. Ketchum. — I'll not press this matter if it is disa- 
 greeable. I know the night is far advanced. 
 
 The Chairman. — I must say the gentleman is out of 
 order. The Board agreed that the parties should be heard 
 in the order in which their memorials were presented — that 
 the petitioners should have_ the usual right to reply: they 
 have been so heard, and the gentleman is therefore out of 
 order unless the Board rescinds its resolution. 
 
 An Alderman then observed that there were some gen- 
 tlemen that were desirous of putting in written legal opi- 
 nions, and he moved that they have permission to do so at 
 the next meeting of the Board. 
 
 The President said that the next -meeting of the board 
 was Monday next, and therefore no order of the board was 
 necessary for an adjournment on the subject. 
 
 It was then understood that legal opinions would be re- 
 ceived at the next meeting of the Board. 
 
 The debate was here brought to a close, and the coun- 
 cil adjourned a few minutes before twelve o'clock. 
 
 I 
 
.THE NEW YOT< FREEMAN'S JOURNAL, 
 
 A WEEKLY PERIODICAL, 
 Published on every Saturday, 
 
 every 
 
 IN 
 
 * Td9 Olty of N;w York, at No. 150 Tulton Street. 
 
 PRICE TWO DOLLARS PER ANNUM, 
 PAYABLE IN ADVANCE. 
 
 Thin journal was established in the city of New York in 
 tha early part of th? 'ast sumnasr, and is favorej with the 
 sanction an 1 approbation of tha Rt. Rsv. Dr. Hughes and 
 t n Cat holi>t clergy of tha Diocsse of New York. It care- 
 fully abstains from intcrmed iling with any of the political 
 i • coatrovefcies of the day, and is wholly unconnected with 
 / nay party wen, or measures. Its object is to supply i n- 
 fbrmiTion useful and interesting h .fl mricans, to Calho- 
 li£t,.aii, eipzciaHy to citizens of Irish birth or connection. 
 It combines within itself all the b jst elements of a secular 
 aid a religions newspaper. It has separate departmsnta 
 for Literature aii Science, for Foreign aid Domestic 
 Nitvi, aii for ftiligious Intelligence. Without in any 
 manner interfering in questions of party strife '•'Tnc New 
 York FreeAa'd s Journal" is, in its secular departments, 
 ^strictly repiblican in its spirit; and in its religious ico- 
 liioais it is fervently Catholic, without any adh»Mflur£ 
 winterer of ofansiye bigotry. A large portion of its space 
 is set apart exclusively for Irish aTuirs/and it is devoted in a 
 peculiar manner to .the miintiuence of the honor and wel- 
 l ire o'*th> Irish em'gra it. No labor or expense has been 
 spaced to establish th> Freeman's Journal oa a respectable 
 . aid an independent b i sis, and rc;rbr it crc lit-ibl ie i iti- 
 /.ea3 of Irish birth, and to the Cathotics of New York, 
 whose intesests it has been designed to support. Extensive 
 communications have been opened with Europe, and daily 
 ' aid weekly papers, a id literary nnd religious periodicals are 
 ragjlarly received by the Free naVs Journal, from Paris 
 London, Edinburgh, Liverpool, Dublin, and all the princi- 
 pal provincial toyas in Ireland. A correspondent has been 
 Its j wise engaged in Irelanl — a highly respectable and in 
 telligeat Irish gentle oa a a — who writes regularly every week 
 for the Journal, and gives more interesting and authentic 
 information than can always be gleaned from the news 
 papers. 
 
 A journal posse^in^ the ad/auLages and conducted upon 
 the principles above staged, cannot fail to be useful and in 
 teresting in the highest degree; and the proprietor, who is 
 himself a Catholic and an Irishman, appeals to the course 
 pursued by the Freeman's J ou nal since the date of its esta- 
 bushmeni, as a justification of all that has been said above. 
 
 It is printed oa a large double sheet with new type; and 
 it is in co at 3 nplatioa to enlarge it at the end of the present 
 year, and make it resemble more nearly in size and form 
 the London weekly periodicals. 
 
 T ie favor and commendation with which the New York 
 Freeman's Journal has besa received, has been a source of 
 sincere gratification to its proprietor, but it is evident that 
 s i)'a an establish neat can only be successfully supported 
 by a wide and extendi.! circulation. The proprietor there- 
 fore, appeals to his fellow-citizens, and especially to those 
 of his o va faith and country, to whoss interests it is espe- 
 cially devote:!, to sustain by a liberal patronage, a journal 
 which iscalei'tted not only to p!eas3 and to instruct, but 
 to viulicite and reoreseat thsm and their just rights with 
 credit and respectability. 
 
 .New York JVjve n'jcr 25, 1840. 
 
 VALUABLE IMPORTATION OF FOREIGN BOOKS FROM 
 PARIS DIRECT.— By the ship " liilUh," from Havre, the 
 subscribers have received their eleventh invoice of Foreign books 
 for 1840. 
 
 Among them, are Cur sit t Complttu* Theologia Sacra 10 vols 4lo, 
 double col.; Citrtut Com. 8urm Scripturoe 22 vols, 4to. These 
 magnificent works, foremost amo.v th? greatest of modern limes, 
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