COLUMBIA LIBRARIES OFFSITE 
 
 AVERY FINE ARTS RESTRICTED 
 
 III 111 III I II I 
 
 AR01413139 
 
 TESTIMONY 
 
 TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 SENATE COMMITTEE 
 
 IN THE MATTER OF 
 
 TRINITY CHURCH. 
 
 Transmitted to the Legislature February 28, 1857. 
 
 ALBANY: 
 
 C. VAN BENTHUYSEN, PRINTER TO THE LEGISLATURE, 
 No. 40? Broadway. 
 
 1857. 
 
 mm 
 
Avery Architectural and Fine Arts Library 
 Gift of Seymour B. Durst Old York Library 
 
No. 95. 
 
 11 SENATE, FEB. 28, 1857. 
 
 Testimony taken before the Senate committee in the matter 
 of Trinity Church. 
 
 TESTIMONY INTRODUCED ON THE PART OF THE VES- 
 TRY. 
 
 Friday, February 13, 1857. 
 Present — Senate committee — Senators Spencer, Noxon, and 
 Ramsey. The trustees of Trinity church were represented by 
 Judge Parker, and 0. Meads, Esq. 
 
 Rev. Benjamin I. Haight, called and sworn. 
 
 Ques. What means have you of being acquainted with the 
 affairs of Trinity Church 1 A. I have been one of the ministers of 
 Trinity Church tor the last ten years, and for nearly two years 
 last past have been the assistant minister assigned to Trinity 
 Church, and have had more especial charge of the parochial 
 work connected with that church. I have lived in New- York 
 all my life, with the exception nf about three years; for nearly 
 twenty-three years have been exercising the functions of my 
 ministry in the city of New-York. 
 
 Q. It is stated in the report of the select committee, at page 
 seven, that it appears in the evidence that Trinity Church has 
 never at any time established or endowed any institution of 
 charity or benevolence, even for her own poor. Is this correct] 
 A. I know of several institutions of charity or benevolence which 
 have either been established or endowed by Trinity Church for 
 
 [Senate, No. 95.] 1 |u.n.2,0O0L.300C.] 
 
4 
 
 [Senate 
 
 at his request, and by him communicated to the vestry along 
 with the reports of other assistant ministers, and may be found 
 in the appendix to the report of the rector, which has been 
 printed for distribution. In connection with St. Paul's, St. 
 John's and Trinity chapel, there are also parochial arrangements 
 having reference to the poor, with the details of which I am 
 not, however, sufficiently acquainted to speak, they being in the 
 charge of other assistant ministers of said parish. St. George's 
 chapel, Beekman street, has been sustained by Trinity Church 
 for several years pastas a mission church; the resident popula- 
 tion in the neighborhood being exclusively of the poorer class. 
 The same remark may apply to the resident population general- 
 ly in the lower part of the city. 
 
 Q. What number of ministers are there in Trinity parish? 
 How are they employed, and what are the character and num- 
 ber of the congregations which attend the several churches in 
 that parish ? A. There are nine clergymen in Trinity parish — 
 the rector and eight assistant ministers. Two of the assistant 
 ministers are engaged in parochial duty in connection with each 
 of the churches, the rector having the general oversight of the 
 parish, and performing duties in all parts thereof. The congre- 
 gation at Trinity church is large, and composed in great part of 
 strangers, transient residents, young men, clerks, etc., and the 
 poor, upon none of whom is any tax, in the form of pew rent or 
 otherwise, laid, for the support of the ministrations of the church. 
 Of the character and number of the congregations in the three 
 chapels— St. Paul's, St. John's, and Trinity chapel. I cannot 
 speak with as much certainty. The congregation at St. Paul's 
 appears to me to be very similar to that of Trinity, and con- 
 stantly becoming more so. In St. John's chapel, an arrange- 
 ment has been made, I believe, by which a certain number of 
 free sittings have been provided, with special reference to the 
 poor; and in Trinity chapel there are from one hundred and 
 fifty to two hundred tree sittings, in the best parts of the church, 
 which are generally well filled. At the third or night service 
 in Trinity chapel, which is continued for several months in the 
 year, and on all other occasions except the morning and after- 
 noon service on Sundays and several special days, all the seats 
 
No. 95. | 
 
 5 
 
 in Trinity chapel are free. This chapel and Trinity church are 
 open daily for morning and afternoon service throughout the year. 
 It is computed there are from 1,200 to 1,500 free sittings in the 
 parish. 
 
 Q. Have the contributions for charitable and religious purpo- 
 ses in the down town congregations of Trinity parish been de- 
 creasing of late years, and if so, how do you account for it 1 
 A. My impression is that they have decreased. In Trinity 
 Church our collections, with the exception of the contributions 
 of a very few persons, are small, owing to the fact that the great 
 bulk of the worshipers are either strangers or persons in very 
 moderate circumstances; the wealthier portion of its former con- 
 gregation having removed to the upper part of the city. 
 
 Q. What church accommodations are there down town, below 
 the Park, besides those afforded by the churches of Trinity 
 parish? A. I know of but two other places of worship; the 
 Dutch church, in William-street, and the Methodist church, in 
 John-st. In consequence of the removal of the other churches, 
 the clergy of Trinity parish are not unfrequently called upon to 
 minister to the people of several protestant denominations. 
 Among the candidates presented for confirmation in Trinity 
 Church, last spring, a large proportion were persons who did not 
 originally belong to the Episcopal church. No call for ministe 
 rial service, from any quarter, is ever declined by the clergy of 
 Trinity parish, and special arrangements have been made at 
 Trinity and St. Paul's churches for convenience of access to the 
 clergy for such duties. For example, Trinity church is open 
 throughout the entire day in each day of the week, and the 
 clergy are in attendance in the vestry room at stated hours, to 
 answer any calls for their services that may be made. In 
 this way, the sick, the dying and the afflicted, can always be 
 visited by a clergyman within a short period. By far the 
 greater part of the work thus performed is among the poor. 
 
 Recess until 4 P. M., Saturday. 
 
c 
 
 [Senate 
 
 Saturday, Feb. 14, 4 p.m. 
 Present, the Senate Committee, Messrs. Spencer, Noxon and 
 Ramsey. Judge Parker and 0. Meads, Esq., on behalf of the 
 Trustees of Trinity Church. 
 
 Rev. Benjamin I. Haight, testimony continued : 
 
 Q. Are there any other arrangements in regard to the poor in 
 Trinity parish, in addition to those you mentioned yesterday ? 
 A. I think that one of my answers yesterday included all the 
 arrangements in general terms. With the arrangements at St. 
 Paul-s, St. John's and Trinity chapels I am not thoroughly 
 familiar. A sketch of them will be found in the recent report 
 of the Rector to the Vestry of Trinity Church, which has been 
 published, and to which I yesterday referred. I will here add, 
 that the several parochial arrangements, having reference to the 
 poor in Trinity parish, which I have described, and which were 
 commenced about two years since, I regard not as a complete 
 system, but as only the beginning of a system of parochial 
 arrangement. When I entered upon my present duties, it was 
 with the distinct impression on my part, grounded upon my 
 knowledge of the views of the Rector and the Yestry, that I was 
 not to be simply a parochial minister at Trinity Church, in the 
 ordinary acceptation of that term, but that I was also to origi- 
 nate and carry forward various plans of a missionary character, 
 having reference to the working classes and the poor in that dis- 
 trict. I have acted upon this presumption, and have thus far 
 received from the Rector and Vestry constant encouragement 
 and support ; and I have no doubt but that encouragement and 
 support will continue to be extended to me, with reference to 
 any plans which I may present for the moral and spiritual bene- 
 fit of the inhabitants in the lower part of the city. 
 
 Q. The report states, v p. 6,) that as to free churches, it does not 
 appear, from the report of Trinity Church, that she has ever 
 built any. What can you say on this subject 1 A. The state- 
 ment in the report is technically true, but it does not convey to 
 my mind an accurate representation of the subject ; for in conse- 
 quence of the building of the new Trinity chapel, and the 
 
No. 95.J 
 
 7 
 
 arrangements made by the Vestry with regard to the pews in 
 that chapel, Trinity Church and St. Paul's chapel have already 
 in great part changed their former character, and from pewed 
 churches, as they are termed, have become virtually free 
 churches, so that, although Trinity Church has not built, tech- 
 nically, two free churches, she has, so to speak, created two. 
 The foregoing remark applies in part also to St. John's chapel. 
 
 The arrangements in regard to the pews at Trinity Chapel, 
 to which I have referred, were these : The Yestry offered to 
 each party holding a pew in either of their three down-town 
 churches, who might be desirous of obtaining a pew in Trinity 
 Chapel, to credit him with the amount of the rent of his pew 
 down town on condition that, while he occupies the pew in Tri- 
 nity chapel, the Vestry should be entitled to the use of the pew 
 down town. The pews which thus come into the possession of 
 the Vestry have been thrown open by them for general use, 
 without charge. As the number of pews of this class is quite 
 large, as I have before said, Trinity and St. Pauls have become, 
 in a large measure, free churches and St. Johns measurably so ; 
 and these churches are of such a character, architecturally and 
 otherwise, as to secure the attendance of the poor to a much 
 greater extent than has been found practicable in humbler edifi- 
 ces. 
 
 Q. Has Trinity Church, clergymen employed as ministers at 
 large whose special duty it is to look after the spiritual wants 
 of the poor and destitute among the " inhabitants of the city of 
 New-York, in communion of the Protestant Episcopal Church ?" 
 A. When about two years ago the Vestry increased the number 
 of assistant ministers, three were added, whose special duty it 
 was to look after the spiritual wants of the poor and destitute ; 
 one of these has been assigned by the Rector to do missionary 
 duty of this class, in connection with each of the three down 
 town churches, and have been constantly occupied therein from 
 that time ; and from the nature of the cases, three of the other 
 assistant ministers who have been assigned to the said churches 
 have been called upon for a large share of this sort of duty. 
 In my own case, fully three-fourths^of my parochial work has 
 been among the poor and destitute. 
 
8 
 
 [Senate 
 
 Q. What do you mean by missionary duty % A. I mean the 
 performance of ministerial work among the poor and destitute 
 who are not ordinarily found within our churches, and who 
 have to be in many cases sought after. 
 
 Q. In the report of this committee, page 22, it is said of the 
 congregation of Trinity Parish that their four congregations 
 united do less, as is testified, than some single independent con- 
 gregations in this same city, with little or no endowment. What 
 have you to say on this subject ; and if it is so, is it charge- 
 able at all to the administration of the affairs of Trinity Church, 
 by the Vestry ? A. If the statement referred to, be true, it is 
 not to be wondered at, inasmuch as two of the congregations of 
 Trinity Parish are now mainly composed of strangers, transient 
 persons, the working classes and the poor ; while even in regard 
 to the other two congregations it may be affirmed, that neither 
 of them, not even that of Trinity Chapel, compares in point of 
 individual wealth with several other independent congregations. 
 There has been a very great change, of late years in the down 
 town congregations, in consequence of the removal of persons 
 of substance, to the upper parts of the city. I can see no con- 
 nection whatever, between the alleged smallness of the contribu- 
 tions of the members of Trinity Parish and the administration 
 of the affairs of the Corporation. If there be a fault in the 
 matter, it cannot justly, be laid to the charge of the Vestry ; it 
 must rest with the clergy and the people. 
 
 Q. Are you cognizant of any measures taken from time to 
 time for the purpose of ascertaining who have been added to the 
 corporators of Trinity parish, and what difficulties are there in 
 the city of New-York, in ascertaining who ceased to be corpora- 
 tors ? A. I have been annually asked by the rector to make a 
 return to him, of all such male persons who have to my know- 
 ledge become communicants in our parish, in order that he 
 might add them to the list of corporators. In no case that I 
 remember, have I been asked by any individual who had thus 
 acquired the rights of a corporator, to return his name, but the 
 return has been made at the desire of the rector ; there is great 
 difficulty in the city of New-York in a large and miscellaneous 
 
No. 95.J 
 
 parish like ours, in ascertaining who of the male communicants 
 have removed and the time of their removal ; the same diffi- 
 culty is felt also in regard to pew holders ; sometimes there are 
 temporary and sometimes permanent absences without notifica- 
 tion to the rector or any of the clergy. 
 
 Q. It is said in the report of this committee (page 22), that 
 there is so little interest in the vestry elections of Trinity parish, 
 that in eight out of the past ten years, an average of hardly one 
 in ten of the corporators cared to appear ; is this state of things 
 peculiar to Trinity parish, and does it indicate " torpor," im- 
 puted in the report? A. A like statement might be made, I 
 apprehend, in regard to every parish in the city of New- York ; 
 I was rector for nearly ten years of a large parish in the city, 
 All Saints, which numbered say from 100 to 150 corporators ; I 
 never saw at any election, having presided at all, of wardens or 
 vestrymen, more than four or five voters, except on one occasion 
 at a period of great excitement in the church, when there were 
 about thirty present ; I do not consider the non-attendance of 
 the corporators on these occasions, as any evidence whatever of 
 a want of interest in parish matters or as a sign of " torpor," but 
 rather as a mark of their entire satisfaction with the administra- 
 tion of the parish. In the case of All Saints church, the parish 
 was united and highly prosperous. 
 
 Q. It is stated in the report of this committee, p. 19., that the 
 effect of this system, (that is, the system by which Trinity Church 
 has contributed to other parishes, wholly in the way ot pecu- 
 niary grants, made either in specific sums or in annual appro- 
 priations, terminated at the pleasure of the Vestry,) as appears 
 from the evidence, has been to injure instead of promoting the 
 independence of the parishes thus aided. Is the statement cor- 
 rect that the making pecuniary grants in either of such forms, 
 or secured by mortgages, has had that effect ? State, also, what 
 effect, if any, has aid in these forms had upon independence of 
 speech and freedom of action on the part of parishes and clergy- 
 men thus aided, where they meet in the diocesan conventions 
 and other church associations, and where there are diversities of 
 opinion as to matters of morals and doctrines 1 A. I do not 
 think that the aid bestowed in any of the forms mentioned, has 
 
10 
 
 [Senate 
 
 had the slightest effect upon the independence of speech and 
 freedom of action of the clergy or laity of the parishes aided. I 
 have had some opportunity of noticing the course pursued by 
 clergy and laity in our diocesan convention, having been for 
 twenty years Assistant Secretary and Secretary of the same, dur- 
 ing the greater part of which time there prevailed great diver- 
 sities of opinion. In looking over the list of parishes whose 
 churches have been mortgaged to Trinity Church, I find eight, 
 the clergy and lay delegates of which, for a series of years, on 
 all leading questions spoke and voted differently from the Rec- 
 tor and lay delegates of Trinity. Two of these are mortgaged 
 for |25,000, two for $20,000, one for $5,000, the other three for 
 smaller sums. So, also, in regard to the churches which have 
 received grants of land and money, or annual stipends. I find 
 nearly thirty which have taken the same independent course in 
 convention, without regard to the course of Trinity. My 
 opinion of the clergy and laity of the diocese of New York is 
 such that I do not think it would be practicable for any corpora- 
 tion to buy their opinions or their votes. Of the churches last 
 referred to, six received gifts of money and land, and twelve re- 
 ceived gifts of money alone, two received gifts of land and a 
 stipend, three received gilts of land alone, six received gifts of 
 stipend alone. My knowledge of the votes of the lay delegates 
 and clergy of the several parishes is derived from the fact that, 
 for a series of years it became my duty at every convention to 
 call the ayes and noes on very many questions. 
 
 Q. In applications for aid, has Trinity Church, in your opin- 
 ion, favored those whose party views were similar fo her own, or 
 has she refused aid on the avowed ground that the views of the 
 applicants were not coincident with her own ? A. I do not be- 
 lieve that the question of church politics has ever entered into 
 the distribution of the gifts of the vestry of Trinity Church, I 
 never have heard of any application for aid which was refused 
 upon the ground that the parties making it, differed in theologi- 
 cal or ecclesiastical opinions from the rector and vestry of 
 Trinity Church. 
 
 Q. What proportion of the whole number of Episcopal churches 
 in the city of New- York have received aid, in some form, from 
 
No. 95.] 
 
 11 
 
 Trinity Church? A. There are about fifty Episcopal churches 
 in New- York city, and I think all of them, except two, have 
 received aid from Trinity Church. Of these two, one, the 
 Church of the Holy Communion, was built by one person, and 
 the other, the Church of the Incarnation, was built by the 
 wealthy congregation of Grace Church. 
 
 By the committee. 
 
 Q, What appropriations have been made by Trinity Church 
 during the last three years previous to April, 1855, to institu 
 tions of charity, benevolence, or learning, in the city of New 
 York 1 A, I do not remember of any made within that specific 
 period. Those that I have already named, were made either 
 before or after the period mentioned. 
 
 Q. What means have you of knowing what motives govern 
 Trinity Church in her grants to other churches 1 A. I have 
 been connected with Trinity Church as one of the ministers for 
 nearly ten years, and have been in the habit of frequent con- 
 verse with the rector and several of the leading vestrymen in 
 regard to their benefactions. 
 
 Q. Have the clergy, other than the rector, any voice or vote 
 in making gifts or grants ? A. The assistant ministers are not 
 members of the vestry, and therefore are not entitled to vote 
 upon such questions. Whatever influence they may have in 
 such grants arises from their official relations to the vestry. 
 
 Q. When you speak of aid to churches, do you include those 
 which give mortgages for what they receive? A. I do, because 
 it is perfectly well understood that those mortgages are not to 
 pay interest, and are never to be collected unless under very 
 extraordinary circumstances. 
 
 Q. Do you or do you not know that when such mortgages are 
 renewed, the accumulated interest is added to the principal ? 
 A. I have no knowledge on this particular point, but have never 
 heard or known that the payment of any interest has been ex- 
 acted. I have never heard of an instance where the accumu- 
 lated interest has been added to the principal. 
 
12 [Senate 
 
 Q. You spoke of new arrangements having been made within 
 the past two years, can you fix the time more definitely 1 A. 
 I was assigned to my present position early in June, 1855. 
 
 Q. Are there not in Trinity Church and all her chapels some 
 paying pews ? A. There are. 
 
 Q. Is there not, sir, a great want of churches in certain parts 
 of the city of New -York ? There is undoubtedly a want of 
 church accommodations in the city of New- York. 
 
 Q. Is there a single Episcopal church in the 4th, 6th, 13th or 
 14th wards, in the city of New-York 1 A. I cannot answer that 
 question without a map of the city. 
 
 Q. Will you tell us, sir, when the present Trinity church was 
 built? A. It was consecrated in 1846. 
 
 Q. Can you tell us what it cost ? A. I do not remember the 
 cost. 
 
 Qi When was Trinity chapel built ? A. It was consecrated 
 in 1855. 
 
 Q. What did it cost ? A. $227,000, according to the report of 
 the vestry. 
 
 Q. How many persons will Trinity church and Trinity chapel 
 seat % A. Trinity church will seat, as at present arranged, about 
 1,200; Trinity chapel about 1,000 persons. I have seen 2,000 
 persons in Trinity church on special occasions. 
 
 Q. In your opinion, has the Episcopal church kept pace with 
 the increase of population of the city] A. It has not. 
 
 Q. Do you consider that the church accommodations in the 
 city have kept pace with the increase of Episcopalians in the 
 city? A. I think it has, and more; inasmuch as the increase of 
 population of the city of New- York has been very largely from 
 foreign countries, from New England, and other parts of the 
 United States, where the members of the Episcopal church have 
 not been numerous. 
 
No. 95,J 
 
 13 
 
 Q. Do you think church accommodations of all denominations 
 have increased proportionately with the increase of population? 
 A. I do not think that it has fully. It has measurably. 
 
 Q. Do you know, sir, whether St. Matthew's church was shut 
 up and offered for sale ? A. I have heard so. 
 
 Q. Was Zion church, near the Five Points, sold to the Ro- 
 manists? A. Yes, sir, it was; the congregation having removed 
 up town and built another church. 
 
 Q. Was Christ church, in Anthony-street, closed and sold? 
 A. It was, under the like circumstances. 
 
 Q. Were the three last named churches Episcopal churches ? 
 A. They were. 
 
 Q. In the cases last mentioned, where the churches were sold, 
 were churches required for the purpose of accommodating 
 Episcopalians ? A. I think not. 
 
 Q. Do you know whether St. Matthew's church made appli- 
 cation to Trinity for aid ? A. I do know that she made applica- 
 tion, and that she received aid, and that the rector addressed 
 two letters of thanks, on behalf of the vestry of St. Matthew's, 
 for such aid. 
 
 Q. How long was this before said church was closed ? A.I 
 don't know. 
 
 Q. Do you know that Trinity church refused her aid? A. I 
 have heard so. 
 
 Q Can you state the number of Episcopalians in the city of 
 New- York ? A. No, I cannot. 
 
 Q. Do you know the number of Episcopalians that belong to 
 Trinity and her chapel ? A. From five to six thousand, inclu- 
 ding men, women and children. 
 
 Q. What proportion is that of the whole number of Episcopa- 
 lians in the city, as near as you can judge ? A. I cannot answer 
 this question, for want of sufficient data. I will examine the 
 
14 [Senate 
 
 subject and give an answer. I estimate the number of Episco- 
 palians in the city of New- York at from 4,000 to 4,500. 
 
 Q. Could Trinity church now rent her pews in the lower down 
 town churches? A. She could not, except in a few instances. 
 
 Q. Did not that fact necessarily compel Trinity to make those 
 churches free? A. No; for she could have done as Grace 
 church, St. George's church, Christ church, Zion church did; 
 sold her churches and built new ones up town. But preferring 
 to keep her churches down town, in the changed condition of 
 the lower part of the city, it would not have been practicable to 
 have rented her pews. 
 
 Q. Do you know whether the other clergy attached to the 
 chapels of Trinity make annual return of the new male com- 
 municants to the rector ? A.I presume that they do ; I am 
 asked as one of the clergy, I presume he asks the others. 
 
 Q. Can you state whether the clergy who make these returns 
 from the various chapels, are allowed to see the returns thus 
 made ? A.I have no doubt but they would if they asked it. 
 
 Q. Have you ever seen them, previous to the report of Trinity 
 Church to the Legislature in 1856 ? A I cannot say whether I 
 have or not, I never had occasion to look at the list. 
 
 Q. Do you know whether Trinity Church has ever foreclosed 
 any of the mortgages taken for grants made by her ? A. I do 
 not. 
 
 Q. What does it cost Trinity Church to support the two lay 
 assistants you spoke of? A. Their present stipend is $150 each. 
 
 Q. Of whom does the vestry of Trinity Church consist ? A. 
 The rector, two church wardens and twenty vestrymen. 
 
 Q. What other officers has Trinity Church besides the mem- 
 bers of the vestry and her clergymen. 
 
 Q. A comptroller and clerk of the vestry, both of whom are 
 members of the vestry, a collector and one clerk in the office. 
 
 Adjourned to 3^ o'clock, Monday P. M. 
 
No. 95.] 
 
 15 
 
 Monday afternoon, February 6M, 3| o'clock P. M. 
 Present — Senate Committer — Senators, Spencer, Noxon and 
 Kamsey. Counsel, as befor3, Judge Parker and 0. Meads, Esq. 
 
 TESTIMONY INTRODUCED BY THE VESTRY. 
 Testimony of Rev. Benjamin I. Haight, continued. 
 
 Q. Do you think Trinity Church has done its utmost to make 
 the capital of the property of that corporation, available for the 
 founding, support, or promotion of religious, charitable, or edu- 
 cational instructions or purposes ? A. As the result of many 
 years observation, during the last ten of which, I have been 
 frequently in converse with the Rector and several of the senior 
 members of the corporation, in reference to the appropriation 
 of their funds to religious, charitable and educational purpo- 
 ses, I answer, that I believe the Vestry has always been solici- 
 tous to make their property as available as possible for these 
 great purposes, and, that when they have declined applications 
 for benefactions, or refrained from entering upon, or prosecu- 
 ting any enterprize brought before them, either by members of 
 their own body, or by others, it has not been from any want of 
 interest in schemes and plans of christian benevolence, or with 
 any view of increasing their own estate, but solely from pru- 
 dential considerations mainly growing out of their heavy debt, 
 which has accumulated solely from their pecuniary grants. I 
 do not believe that any other body of intelligent and prudent 
 christian men of the same number, and chosen in the same 
 way — that is, by a popular constituency — would have done 
 more than the Vestry of Trinity Church, as constituted, tor the 
 last quarter of a century. 
 
 Q. Will you name the free Episcopal churches in the city of 
 New York 1 A. All Angels, Epiphany, Holy Comforter, Our 
 Saviour, Holy Communion, Holy Evangelists, Holy Innocents, 
 Holy Martyrs, Nativity, St. Cornelius, St. John the Evangelist's, 
 St. Mary's, and St. Michael's ; the foregoing have church edifices 
 proper. Besides these, there are the following free congrega- 
 tions worshiping in halls : the Messiah and St. Ann's. Besides 
 these, the following are at present suspended : Good Shepherd, 
 
16 [Senate 
 
 temporarily, the church being constructing; St. Barnabas, St. 
 Matthew's, and St. Simon's. The former free church of St. Jude 
 has been merged in the church ot St. John the Evangelist. 
 
 By the Committee (a map presented) : 
 
 Q. Are there any Episcopal churches in the 4th, 6th, 13th 
 and 14th wards of the city of New-York ? A. There are none. 
 
 Q. In which of these wards was Zion church situated? A. In 
 trie 6th. 
 
 Q. After viewing that map, do you still say that Zion church 
 was not needed there ? A. Such a question was not put to me. 
 The question was whether it was required for Episcopalians in 
 that vicinity. I answered that I thought not, and I think so 
 still. If I had been asked whether it was not desirable that 
 there should be mission churches in that and the other wards, 
 for the purpose of supplying the ministrations of the gospel to 
 the destitute of all classes and denominations, with a view to 
 their spiritual benefit, and gathering them into the Episcopal 
 church, I should have answered that I did think it desirable. 
 
 Q. What would be the average number of persons that the 
 free churchts you have named would accommodate ? A. From 
 450 to 500 each. 
 
 By Counsel for Trinity Church : 
 
 Q. Though there are no Episcopal churches in the wards 
 named, are there Episcopal churches close upon their confines ? 
 A. In the vicinity of the 4th ward there are two large churches, 
 in the vicinity of the 6th there is one, in the vicinity of the 13th 
 there are two, and in the vicinity of the 14th there are two. 
 
 Rt. Rev. Horatio Potter called and sworn : 
 
 Q. What is your place of residence, and your office in the 
 Protestant Episcopal church ? A. My place of residence is in 
 the city of New-York, my office is Provisional Bishop of the 
 diocese of New- York. 
 
 Q. What opportunities do your official position and duties 
 afford you for obtaining information in regard to the condition, 
 
No. 95.] 17 
 
 wants and interests - of the various congregations in your 
 diocese? A. It is made my duty by canon to visit peri- 
 odically all the parishes of the diocese and inquire into their 
 condition, and to maintain at all times general superintendence 
 over the churches of the diocese. To which I may add, that 
 persons belonging to the several parishes naturally come to me 
 for advice and direction. 
 
 Q. Has the law of 1814 in regard to Trinity Church been ac- 
 quiesced in or not ? I think it has been generally ; no person 
 has appeared in the courts to object to its constitutionality ; had 
 there been any real confidence in the existence of a right in 
 members of other and independent congregations to be corpora- 
 tors of Trinity Church, undoubtedly that right would have been 
 asserted and maintained in the courts, both before and after 
 1814 ; for more than thirty years after the passage of the law of 
 1814, no attempt was made to procure its repeal ; there might 
 be cases of individual discontent, as there will be with things 
 most just and reasonable, but they were of no account compared 
 with the general acquiescence and the absence of all formal at- 
 tempts, either in the courts or before the Legislature, to object. 
 
 Q. What, in your opinion, would be the effect of throwing 
 open the corporation of Trinity Church, and allowing all per- 
 sons in New- York, in communion with the Protestant Episcopal 
 church, to become corporators in that body 7 A. The effect 
 would be disastrous in very many ways ; in the first place, as it 
 would be, in my opinion, a violation of the original meaning 
 and intent of the charter, a meaning and intent recognized and 
 admitted for fifty years, it would constitute an act of public 
 fraud and immorality, so gross as to be of evil influence through- 
 out the whole country ; but besides that, the immediate opera- 
 tion in the city of New-York would be extremely injurious to 
 the peace and well being of the church ; ail the parishes in the 
 city would be brought into conflict with Trinity Church and 
 with each other. Trinity Church is a parish like any other in the 
 city, except as to the amount of its wealth. Persons who were 
 corporators in an independent parish, having its own peculiar 
 interests and objects, would be coporators also in Trinity Church, 
 
 [Senate, No. 95.] 2 
 
18 J Senate 
 
 where they would be present by their representatives to embarrass 
 and control her parochial operations, and to take from her her 
 means for their own purposes : such foreign corporators might, 
 and I believe, would have selfish reasons for desiring to cripple 
 the parochial work of Trinity Church, while they sought to build 
 up rival churches of their own. 
 
 Under such a system, Trinity Church would soon cease to be 
 a parish, in the ordinary sense of the term. Her parochial work 
 would be reduced and gradually ruined; and she would become 
 the mere holder of a fund, a mere financial body, for whose 
 wealth many thousands of persons, cut up into conflicting and 
 rival sections, would be scrambling. The annual elections 
 would present a scene most grossly unbecoming, highly injuri- 
 ous to the character of the church and to the interests of religion, 
 for those elections would be sure to be severely contested elec- 
 tions, where several thousand persons would have a right to 
 vote, and where there would be great temptation among the 
 outstanding congregations to swell the number of their voters, 
 by all sorts of means. There would be a temptation to unfair 
 combinations among different parishes and sections of the city to 
 procure grants in favor of each other. All this would be a per- 
 fect anomaly in the Episcopal church. I know of no eases in 
 which the same person is corporator in the different parishes, 
 the parishes being in a position to be rivals to each other. There 
 are instances, probably, in which a person is a corporator in a 
 city parish and also in a rural parish, where he has his country 
 residence; but this is attended with no serious evil. In every 
 system, whether of the family, the State, or the church, where a 
 person is present within, to influence, to control, he is supposed 
 to be a member of the system, with a kindly interest in it, with 
 a generous devotion to its welfare, and subject to all its laws 
 and authorities. But if the corporation of Trinity Church were 
 thrown open, you would probably have vestrymen present to 
 vote away its money, to control its counsels, who were enemies 
 and aliens; interested in other parishes, but not in Trinity 
 Church; not subject to its rector, not under its religious influ- 
 ence, but present only to vex and harrass. This is not only a 
 
No. 95.] 
 
 19 
 
 violation of all the principles of the church, which require that 
 every person present in a parish with any rights and privileges, 
 shall be amenable to the spiritual authority of the rector, but is 
 a violation of common sense, which requires that those who vote 
 or rule in a body, shall be bona fide members of it, and owe it a 
 hearty allegiance. 
 
 Q. What is your view in regard to the course of Trinity Church 
 in rebuilding Trinity Church at the head of Wall-street, and in 
 building Trinity Chapel, at the head of Wall-street, and in build- 
 ing Trinity Chapel, in Twenty-fifth-street ? A. I think it was a 
 very proper course. It was natural they should desire to retain 
 the old site down town, so long endeared to them, and it was 
 very important that the lower part of the city, which was in a 
 way to be abandoned by all the other Episcopal congregations, 
 should not be abandoned by them. They owe it to the lower 
 part of the city to maintain themselves there, among the poor, 
 and their property enabled them to do so. In regard to the 
 building of Trinity Chapel, up town, many of their old parish- 
 ioners had moved far up town, with only very moderate means, 
 in many cases, and it seemed the duty of Trinity Church to fol- 
 low them and provide for them, and to seek to retain them as 
 her parishioners. The erection of Trinity Chapel was therefore 
 a proper measure. As to the costly character of the two edifices, 
 I consider that Trinity Church only did her duty in making 
 them models of ecclesiastical architecture. Her wealth had been 
 created mainly by the growth of the city. She therefore owed 
 to the city some contribution in the way of beautiful and mag- 
 nificent edifices. And with her wealth, she owed it equally to 
 the character of her own communion. Had Trinity Church, with 
 its means, limited itself to the erection of buildings of a mode ■ 
 rate cost, I have no doubt the parish would have been severely 
 censured, both by the church and by the community generally. 
 As a general thing, I believe a few costly churches are of great 
 utility to the interests of religion. I have no doubt that West- 
 minister Abbey has, in the course of ages, been worth to the 
 influence of Divine Truth in the world, vastly more than all 
 that it ever cost. 
 
20 [Senate 
 
 Q. What is your opinion of the effect of the course of Trinity 
 Church, in giving her aid to churches in the form of loans 
 upon mortgages, rather than in the form of absolute grants'? 
 A. Those loans were absolute grants in reality, nobody ever sup- 
 posed that the interest or the principal would be called for by 
 Trinity Church. They never have been 3 in a single instance, 
 although the cases have been very numerous, in which land 
 mortgages have been given. When I consecrate a church, I al- 
 ways wish to know whether there be any debt. 1 never regard 
 a mortgage given to Trinity Church, in the light of a debt. I 
 have never perceived, I do not believe, that such mortgages, in 
 any way affect the independence of ministers, or laymen. It 
 is very common indeed, to see the minister and laymen of a 
 Church, subject to a mortgage, voting against measures favored 
 by Trinity Church. In convention, I doubt whether any 'one 
 remembers or reflects, whether mortgages exist in particular 
 quarters, or not. The effect of these mortgages has, I have no 
 doubt, been important in preventing the property of churches 
 from being sold and alienated from their sacred use. And this, 
 I have always understood, was the sole object of Trinity Church 
 in requiring them. 
 
 Q. St. Matthew's Church in New- York has been recently 
 closed. Was it the duty of Trinity Church under the circum- 
 stances, to have prevented that result ? A. I cannot say, that, 
 under all the circumstances of the case, I would have advised 
 Trinity Church to do differently from what she has done. 
 
 Q. What is your view of the past management of Trinity 
 Church in relation to the poor? Trinity Church has done a 
 great deal for the poor in many ways — She has provided free 
 education for the poor, in schools and colleges — She has assisted 
 in the erection of between one and two hundred ( nearly two 
 hundred ) churches in the State. To say the least, a very large 
 portion of all these grants must be considered as assistance 
 granted to those who had not the means of doing all for them- 
 selves. She has granted annuities in many cases to aged clergy- 
 men and to the widows and orphans of deceased clergymen. 
 She has schools for poor children connected with several of her 
 churches and chapels. And finally, all her churches, down 
 
No. 95.] 21 
 
 town, Trinity Church, St. Paul's, St. John's and Old St. George's, 
 supported by her, are, to a very large extent, in the nature of 
 a free provision for the poor. And beside these, there are se- 
 veral other churches, situated in districts much occupied by the 
 poor, which are largely assisted by Trinity Church, 
 
 Q. It is alleged that in some districts of New York there is a 
 want of adequate religious provision for the poor 5 can you state 
 any facts bearing upon this matter 1 A. Some portions of the 
 city are chiefly occupied by Germans; other inhabitants remove 
 from those sections. There are consequently fewer persons than 
 Ave might at first suppose capable of being gathered into Epis- 
 copal congregations. There may be, and probably is, after all, 
 a deficiency of church accommodation, but it is not as great in 
 some quarters as it seems to be. 
 
 By the Committee : 
 
 Q. Do you think in seeking to retain the parishioners in 
 Trinity chapel, it was right to seek to cut them off as corpora- 
 tors 1 A. I have not understood that it was contemplated by 
 Trinity church to cut off her parishioners as corporators. In 
 the abstract I should say it would not be right to do so. I sup- 
 posed it was intended to prevent a rush of strangers from com- 
 ing in and making themselves corporators from interested 
 motives. 
 
 Q. Did you ever see the lease under which the pews in 
 Trinity chapel were leased? A. I have not. 
 
 [Lease shown the witness]. 
 
 Q. After examining the lease, do you not think it would cut 
 them off as corporators ? A. It seems to do so, sir. 
 
 Q. What appropriations were made by Trinity Church, for 
 three years previous to April 1855, to institutions of charity, 
 benevolence or learning in the city of New York ? A. I have 
 been in the city of New York only a portion of that time, about 
 a year and three or four months, and I am only generally cog- 
 nizant of the fact that Trinity Church has been continually 
 making grants to one object and another, without fixing my 
 
22 
 
 | Senate 
 
 attention to any in particular. I cannot say whether the grants 
 here referred to are included in the grants that have been made. 
 
 Q. Can you mention any appropriations of the kind spoken of, 
 made at any time, and if so, at what time, and what were they ? 
 A. I know that grants have been made to Columbia College and 
 I believe, to Trinity school. I am not able to answer fully; 
 cannot specify the time. I may be permitted to say that my 
 attention has been more particularly directed to grants at large 
 for church buildings than to those objects. 
 
 Q. Can you say that you know of any such appropriations, 
 made within the last ten or twenty years? A. I cannot say 
 that I can. 
 
 Q. You answer the first question that the law of 1814 has 
 been acquiesced in ; has it been by the church in the city of 
 New York generally, outside of Trinity ? A. My impression is, 
 that until within a recent period, twelve or fifteen years, it has 
 been. 
 
 Q. During that twelve or fifteen years, has not the great body 
 of the Episcopal church, outside of Trinity, in the city of New- 
 York, been dissatisfied with the law of 1814? A. I should not 
 think so; but, as I said before, my acquaintance with New- York, 
 until within a year or two, has been only a very general one, 
 and my opinion is partly formed from what I have known 
 myself, and partly an inference from the absence of any formal 
 attempt to controvert the law. 
 
 Q. Previous to the law of 1814, did, or did not the inhabitants 
 of New- York, in communion with the Protestant Episcopal 
 church, outside of Trinity, exercise and enjoy the right of voting 
 for wardens and vestrymen of Trinity church ? A. I have 
 always understood that they did not. 
 
 Q. Do you not understand that right to have been guaranteed 
 under the charter to those in communion with the church, and 
 not belonging to the parish of Trinity church, in the city of New- 
 York ? A. I do not. I may add, that the charter of my own 
 late parish, St. Peter's, Albany, is in the same terms, and was 
 
No. 95. J 
 
 23 
 
 never held to guarantee rights to any one outside the parish. 
 When the second congregation was formed, St. Paul's, in this 
 city, (Albany,) St. Peter's church, having such a charter, had 
 property, to which the members of St. Paul's church never set 
 up any claim. 
 
 Q. What difficulties would arise in each of the Episcopal 
 churches in the city of New-York sending a delegate to a con- 
 vention to choose wardens and vestrymen to take care of the 
 fund now administered by Trinity church ? A, I think it would 
 be possible to suggest many difficulties of detail. But I have a 
 general answer. The church is governed in accordance with 
 long tried, well settled, traditional principles and practices, the 
 precise nature of which is thoroughly understood from long 
 experience. The system suggested would be an entire anomaly 
 in the church, both in this country and in England, and I should 
 think a very dangerous one to adopt. 
 
 Q. What has the government of the church to do with the 
 administration of this fund % A. The church knows of no dis- 
 tinction between the administration of church funds and 
 matters purely spiritual. They are all part and parcel of the 
 same system. She does not know of money in any secular 
 sense. I may add, in the case of every known church in this 
 country and in England, the same body that regulates the spir- 
 itual concerns of a parish regulates also its church fund as a 
 religious act. 
 
 Q. Is not the administration of this fund entirely and abso- 
 lutely separate from all the religious and ecclesiastical care of 
 the church, as a religious society 1 A, I think not. 
 
 Q. Wherein does she exercise any control 2 A. The imme- 
 diate disposal of this fund is ordered in the presence of and by 
 the rector, wardens and vestrymen, of the parish. They are 
 both immedialely responsible to me as the bishop of the diocese, 
 and are amenable to the church of this diocese assembled in 
 convention. I do not mean, however, to be understood that I 
 supervise the details of appropriations, or that my assent is 
 essential to the validity of any grants by the vestry. 
 
24 [Senate 
 
 Q. Is not the care of the bishop, rector, wardens and vestry- 
 men, theoretical, and the practical care of this fund entrusted to 
 a committee of the wardens and vestrymen ? A. I think the 
 care of the bishop, rector, wardens and vestrymen, is not theo- 
 retical, but practical, though the bishop, of course, is not a mem- 
 ber of this body, and has only a general oversight over the af- 
 fairs of the church. As in any large body, which in this case 
 amounts to twenty-three persons, there is a sub-committee which, 
 however, takes cognizance not merely of money matters, but of 
 matters bearing upon the spiritual well-being of the parish, and 
 which committee is appointed for the convenience of arranging 
 and preparing business for the full meeting of the vestry, when 
 it is deliberately passed upon. And I have to say, furthermore, 
 that the care of the bishop and the rector is a reality, inasmuch 
 as if the members of the vestry violated their duty they would 
 be subject to be admonished and disciplined by the rector, and if 
 they and the rector together, either or both, clearly violated 
 their duty so as to be adjudged guilty of an offence capable of 
 being made evident to me or the bishop, they would certainly be 
 liable to be disciplined by him. 
 
 Q. Do the wardens and vestrymen of Trinity Church report 
 to the bishop or to the convention their action in relation to 
 grants or aid to churches, or in relation to their general affairs ? 
 A. They do not formally make a full report of all grants, but 
 from the interest which attaches to the affairs of that parish, I 
 believe its internal business is better known to the bishop and 
 church at large, than the affairs of any other wealthy Episcopal 
 congregation in the city of New-York. I am not aware that 
 there is any concealment. 
 
 Q. Do they make an informal report ? A. Various reports 
 have been made at different times of the grants of Trinity Church,- 
 and I believe their proceedings generally transpire speedily. In 
 some instances action is reported to me immediately. 
 
 Q. If they make no report to you, how have you any super- 
 vision over their affairs, except theoretically? A. The general 
 course of the administration of affairs in the parish is well 
 known. I presume it will be found that in every year the 
 
No. 95.J 
 
 25 
 
 receipts and the expenditures of the parish are known to a very- 
 considerable number of persons most interested. 
 
 Q. Have you any knowledge whatever of the managed affairs 
 of Trinity Church ? A. I have only a general knowledge of 
 those of my parish. 
 
 Q. What greater reason was there for abandoning the church 
 at the Five Points, and Christ Church, than for abandoning 
 Trinity Church at the head of Wall street 1 A. The church at 
 the Five Points and Christ Church, were independent parishes^ 
 and moved, I presume, of their own option to a more eligible 
 portion of the city. Trinity Church might have removed to a 
 more eligible portion of the city, so far as the character of her 
 worshipers, for wealth, were concerned; but preferred to retain 
 a very old site,, the oldest I believe in the city, and to continue 
 to exercise her ministry in that very destitute portion of the 
 city. 
 
 Q. Were there not as strong reasons for retaining Zion church at 
 the Five Points, as there were for retaining Trinity upon her 
 site 1 A. I was not as well acquainted with the position of Zion 
 church in those days as with that of Trinity, and it may have 
 been very desirable that a church should have been retained in 
 the place of Zion church. 
 
 Q. Is or is not the effect of making loans to churches and tak 
 ing back bonds and mortgages for the money so loaned, to cause 
 the churches thus receiving loans to vote in convention for the 
 particular views Trinity Church espouses? A. I can only judge 
 from my own experience and observation, and so judging should 
 think not. I can recall many cases where such mortgages 
 exist, and where the rector and the lay delegates quite habitual- 
 ly vote on a side different from Trinity Church. My attention 
 has never been called to any case where the independence of the 
 rector and laity seemed to have been impaired in consequence 
 of the existence of any mortgage. 
 
 Q. Do or do you not know that in the grants of Trinity 
 Church, she aids ten churches classed as " high church," where 
 she aids one of opposite views 1 A. I do not know that she 
 
26 
 
 [Senate 
 
 does ; it may seem strange, but I never have looked at the 
 grants of Trinity Church to see how that was. 
 
 Q. Can you state the comparative number of the congregations 
 known as " high church " in this diocese, and those known of 
 the opposite character 1 A. I can suppose that there are many 
 congregations that would not care to have either term applied ; 
 but if the line were to be strictly drawn, including on one side 
 or the other every congregation, I suppose there would be five 
 or six of the " high church " to one of the ' low." 
 
 Q. What is the proportion in the city of New- York ? I am 
 not so well informed in regard to the city of New-York as in 
 regard to the whole diocese, because a general vote is sometimes 
 taken in convention showing the comparative numbers in the 
 whole diocese, but nothing of the same kind occurs to show the 
 proportion in the city, yet I have no doubt that the proportion 
 of what would be called " low church " in the city, is somewhat 
 larger than in the diocese generally. 
 
 Q. Was there not a time in the city of New- York, when all 
 Episcopalians in that city had a right to vote at the elections of 
 Trinity Church 1 A. I am not aware that there was any such 
 time, unless it was at a very early period when all Epicopalians 
 were members of that parish. 
 
 Q. What greater difficulty would there be in managing a 
 larger property of the church through the convention, than there 
 is in managing the Episcopal Fund'? A. So that they were 
 rightfully possessed of a large property, I think they might be 
 able to manage it. 
 
 By Counsel for Trinity Church. 
 
 Q. Say, whether there is not, necessarily, a most intimate 
 connection between the spiritual and financial affairs of a parish, 
 growing out of the fact, that the funds are to be applied with 
 reference to spiritual interests ? A. Undoubtedly. 
 
 Q. Had Trinity any control over the removal of Zion Church 
 from the Five Points, or Christ Church from Anthony street 1 
 A. I am not, aware that she had. 
 
No. 95.] 27 
 
 Q. If it be true, that in eight, out of the past ten years, an 
 average of hardly one in ten of the corporators*of Trinity Church 
 appeared at the vestry elections of Trinity Church, is this a 
 state of things peculiar to that parish, and does it indicate 
 a torpor?" A. It is quite the ordinary condition of things 
 throughout the diocese, I should think. It is generally rather 
 a favorable indication, than otherwise, implying satisfaction 
 with the administration of the affairs. As a general thing 
 throughout the diocese, and throughout the country, probably, 
 you will find few voters present, unless there is some trouble. 
 
 Q. How was it, during the twenty-two years that you were 
 Rector of St. Peter's Church in Albany 1 A. I suppose, out of 
 one hundred and twenty-five or one hundred and thirty corpora- 
 tors, there were, on an average, from six to ten persons present 
 at annual vestry meetings. 
 
 Q. Do you think that Trinity Church has done its utmost to 
 make the capital of the property of that corporation, available 
 for the founding, support, or promotion of religious, charitable, 
 or educational institutions, or purposes'? A. It is a very diffi- 
 cult question for any one to answer, I have had some plans that I 
 have wished, and intend to propose to the Rector and vestry of 
 Trinity Church, but I was met, in turning the matter in my own 
 mind, on the threshold, with the fact, that Trinity Church has 
 already a debt of, between $600,000 and 700,000 ; She is con- 
 stantly beset by various applications, for important objects, and 
 has been making grants, whenever she felt herself warranted 
 in doing so ; and I have felt that there might be difficulties 
 about raising large sums of money at present, and having en- 
 tire confidence in the probity and good-will of the vestry, I felt 
 unwilling to press them to exertions beyond what their own 
 judgment warranted. Whether they have ever made any mis- 
 takes, or omitted to make appropriations, when they ought to 
 have done so, I am sure I am not able to sa) , nor do I consider 
 it a very material question in the present aspect of affairs. 
 
 Q. Is it the practice of the Vestry to consult with the bishop 
 of the church with reference to making or refusing grants 1 
 
28 
 
 | Senate 
 
 A. It is not; I maybe spoken to in some instances, but I par- 
 ticularly wish to avoid it. The applications will always be very 
 much more numerous than can possibly be granted under any 
 conceivable state of things. If I was known to interfere in the 
 matter of appropriations, my duties and responsibilities would 
 be very largely increased indeed, without any corresponding 
 benefit to the church. I have felt obliged to have it understood 
 in the diocese that I could not act in behalf of applicants. 
 
 Q. Can you tell us whether Trinity Church has, within the 
 past twenty years, given any lots of land for any purpose what- 
 ever, except the burial plot spoken of in the report ? A. I don't 
 know whether she has or not. 
 
 Recess to to-morrow at 4 p. m. 
 
 Thursday Afternoon, Feb. 17, 
 
 Present, Senate Committee, Messrs. Spencer, Noxon, and Ram- 
 sey; Judge Parker and 0. Meads, Esq., counsel for Trinity Cor- 
 poration. 
 
 Rev. Jesse Pound recalled, examined by Counsel for Trinity 
 Church. 
 
 Q. Were you the Pastor of St. Matthew's church at the time 
 it was closed 1 A. I was. 
 
 Q. What other Episcopal churches were near St. Matthew's ? 
 A. There were several, St. Luke's St. Clement's, and there was 
 a recently organized congregation called the St. John the Evan- 
 gelist, first called St. Jude's; these were all that were in the im- 
 mediate neighborhood. 
 
 Q. Which of these was the last organized ? A. St. John the 
 Evangelist, or St. Jude's as formerly named. 
 
 Q. Was there in your opinion any necessity for the organiza- 
 tion of St. Jude's ? A. I think not, the wants of the neighbor- 
 hood were abundantly met by existing corporations. 
 
 Q. How long before St. Matthew's was closed was St. Jude's 
 organized'? A. I think about eight years; but would not be 
 certain as to the precise time. 
 
No. 95.] 
 
 29 
 
 Q. How near was St. Jude's church to St. Clement's 1 A. It 
 was very near the length of one block. 
 
 Q. How far was St. Luke's from St. Matthew's ? A. The 
 distance ot three blocks. St. Luke's was nearest to St. Mat- 
 thew's. 
 
 Q. How far is St. Jude's, or St. John's the Evangelist, from 
 St. Matthew's A. It is within three blocks. 
 
 The following letter was here introduced and read : 
 
 To the Rector J Church-wardens and Vestrymen of Trinity Church : 
 Gentlemen — The undersigned, in behalf of St. Matthew's 
 church, in this city, beg leave to address you for the purpose of 
 discharging a duty, which is as pleasing to our own feelings as 
 we hope it will prove acceptable to your's, and which has only 
 been thus long delayed by the fact of our not having had a 
 regular and full vestry meeting during the past summer. The 
 duty alluded to, is that of presenting to your honorable body 
 our very sincere and most grateful acknowledgments for the 
 annual appropriation you have been pleased to make to the 
 parish we represent. We beg leave, most sincerely, to assure 
 you of our grateful appreciation of this act of kindness and 
 consideration, and that we regard the value of the stipend, and 
 our obligation to its donors, vastly increased by the fact that it 
 was unsolicited. We consider it to be the province of St. Mat- 
 thew's to test the practicability and efficiency of the free church 
 principle, and since God's providence has placed us in a condi- 
 tion to test it fairly and fully, we are determined so to do, that 
 if it fail here, it may be regarded as a total failure. Accept 
 therefor our most sincere thanks for giving us something on 
 which our rector may rely while this experiment is being made ; 
 and praying God to bless your exertions in discharging the obli- 
 gations of your high trust and mighty responsibilities, we are, 
 gentlemen, very sincerely, 
 
 New-York, October 20th, 1847. 
 
 (Signed,) 
 
 John McRae, 
 Henry Fisher, 
 
 Your grateful friends and brethren, 
 ,) JESSE POUND, Rector. 
 
 Wardens. 
 
30 
 
 [Senate 
 
 Q. Is that your signature affixed to the letter? A. Yes, sir. 
 Q. Are the others the signatures of the wardens I A. Yes, sir. 
 
 The witness desired to explain, as follows: St. Matthew's 
 church was first given to the City Mission Society. To that 
 society, Trinity had been accustomed to give an annual stipend, 
 to each of their stations. That society became unable to sustain 
 itself. The City Mission Society paid the stipend to each church, 
 of which Trinity paid $600, which was one-half. There were 
 three churches. The action of Trinity church vestry, to which 
 that letter refers, was subsequent to their being given up by the 
 City Mission Society, and consequent upon that act. The $400 
 was, therefore, in lieu of the $600 which had formerly been paid 
 to the City Mission Society. 
 
 Again, in relation to the reasons which led to the founding of 
 St. Matthews Church. It was first purchased by an individual 
 wholly, and given to the City Mission Society, in order that it 
 might supply free church accommodations to that neighborhood. 
 The location of the church was not esteemed a desirable one, 
 chiefly on account of its nearness to St. Luke's; but the property 
 was an eligible one and such as could be paid for with the means 
 in hand. Before any step was taken towards the purchase, or 
 any third individual knew of such intention, Bishop Eastman 
 and myself waited upon Mr. Forbes, then the rector of St. Lukes. 
 Dr. Eastman stated to him his purpose, and asked him if he had 
 any objection arising from its nearness to St. Lukes. He replied 
 he had not the least, and bid us God speed. He further observed 
 that he could have no objection, inasmuch as there had not been 
 a pew or sitting to let in St. Lukes for years, and there were 
 constant applications for them which they could not supply. 
 He further observed that were the church on the lot adjoining 
 St. Lukes he would have no objection. 
 
 Q. How long before the closing of St. Matthews did you 
 adopt the practice of renting the pews 1 A. About three years. 
 The practice was continued until the close of the church, but 
 the rent was nominal, ranging from $5 to $20. The only object 
 was to produce income enough to pay expenses. 
 
No. 95.] 
 
 31 
 
 Q. Who was the first rector of St. Jude? A. Rev. R. C. 
 Shineal. 
 
 Q. Did he afterwards become a Presbyterian minister? 
 A. He did, soon after he left the parish. 
 
 By the committee, 
 
 Q. It appears by the report of Trinity Church, that she gave 
 annually to St. Lukes §2,100. "What portion of that sum given 
 to St. Matthew's would have sustained that church? A, One- 
 half of it. 
 
 Q. By giving one-half that sum that property would then 
 have been preserved to the Episcopal Church in the city ? A. It 
 would. 
 
 Q. Did Trinity Church receive back from the City Mission 
 Society any considerable portion of her advances to that institu- 
 tion ? A. I have reason to believe they did from the sale of the 
 property, but not from the society. 
 
 Q. How was the property sold ? A. It was sold under fore- 
 closure of mortgages. 
 
 Q. Did Trinity Church hold mortgages upon those two 
 churches ? A. I presume not. 
 
 Q. How then did she collect the money. A. The church of 
 the Holy Evangelists was bought and paid for wholly by contri- 
 butions of private churchmen. The church of the Epiphany 
 partly so; the other part, as I have been informed by the trea- 
 surer of that society, was obtained by mortgage of the two 
 churches to the Howard insurance company for $13,000. When 
 the security ceased there was no one to pay the interest, and the 
 mortgages were foreclosed. Trinity, as I have been informed, 
 became the purchaser. The Holy Evangelist's was sold, as I 
 have been informed, for $15,000. 
 
 Q. What description of people made up the congregation of 
 St. Matthews? A. They were persons in humble circumstances; 
 large proportion of them were poor. There was not a wealthy 
 individual in the congregation. 
 
32 
 
 [Senate 
 
 What description of persons made up the congregation at St. 
 Luke's ? A. They were of a more respectable class, and much 
 more means. 
 
 By Judge Parker. 
 
 Q. You have stated that half the allowance made to St. Luke's 
 would have sustained St. Matthews church. Do you mean that 
 it would pay the indebtedness of the church and the mortgage 
 on the parsonage 1 A. No, it could not do that. 
 
 Q. How much would it have taken to do that and to put the 
 church edifice in repair? A. About $6,000. That would have 
 left the whole property clear. An annual stipend of $1,000 
 from Trinity, after paying this indebtedness and repairs, would 
 have paid its rector $1 ,000 per year and all ordinary expenses 
 of the parish. The whole annual expenses of the parish never 
 exceeded $1,700. I am now rector of the St. Luke's church, at 
 Rossville, Staten Island, and receive an annual salary of $400 
 and a parsonage. 
 
 By the committee. 
 
 Q. What was St. Matthews worth at the time it was mort- 
 gaged? A. It was considered a cheap purchase at $1,500. It 
 has been reconveyed to Bishop Eastman, the donor, who origi- 
 nally gave it to the City Mission Society. 
 
 Rev. William Berrian^ Rector of Trinity Church, called and 
 sworn : 
 
 Examination by counsel for Trinity Church. 
 
 Q. How long have you been a minister of Trinity Church 1 
 A. I am in the 46th year of my ministry in that parish; I was 
 nearly seventeen years assistant minister, two years assistant rec- 
 tor, and have now been upwards of twenty-six years rector of 
 the same. 
 
 Q. State whether, from this long connection with the parish 
 and your official station, you have become very familiar with its 
 concerns 1 A. Legal questions being excepted, there are pro- 
 bably few more so. 
 
No. 95.J 
 
 33 
 
 Q. What particular facilities have you for this kind of infor- 
 mation from your position as rector 1 A.I preside at every 
 meeting of the vestry, and as presiding officer all its business 
 passes me as presiding officer in the first instance, and if it be 
 referred either to special committees or the standing committee, 
 is generally more or less known to me in its progress, and always, 
 of course, (unless referred with power,) before the final action 
 upon it. 
 
 Q. Has your attention been drawn to the affairs of this cor- 
 poration in any other way which might make you still more 
 familiar with them 1 A. A few years since, I wrote the history 
 of Trinity Church, the materials for which were drawn from 
 the most authentic and reliable sources, and with as much re- 
 gard to truthfulness and accuracy, as honesty of purpose and 
 labor and care could possibly make it. I have, since that, writ- 
 ten a vindication of this corporation, in a pamphlet entitled 
 " Facts against Fancy," from the unjust and unmerited asper- 
 sions which have been cast upon it, and brought down the list 
 of its gifts and bounties very nearly to the present time. I have 
 also recently prepared a report to the vestry on the actual work- 
 ing of the system in our parish under its present arrangements, 
 which could scarcely fail, from its beneficent results, to satisfy 
 every candid and unprejudiced mind. 
 
 Q. Eeing so familiar with the affairs of Trinity Church, why 
 did you not testify before this committee at its sessions in the 
 city of New York 1 and why did not all the assistant ministers 
 testify 1 A. I was not summoned by the committee, and only 
 three out of eight of the assistant ministers were; on what 
 grounds the discrimination was made it is impossible for me to 
 tell. 
 
 Q. Is there any foundation for the charge that the standing 
 committee possess nearly all the reliable knowledge of the affairs 
 of the corporation 1 A. In no degree whatever. 
 
 Q. Of whom does the standing committee consist and when is 
 it chosen 't A. The standing committee consists of the Comp- 
 troller, the clerk, and six other members of the body, who are 
 selected from the whole number of the vestry, consisting of 
 twenty-two members, on account of their supposed preeminent 
 
 [Senate, No. 95.] 3 
 
34 
 
 [Senate 
 
 fitness for the proper consideration of the subjects referred to 
 them. The standing committee are elected every year. 
 
 Q. What is the usual course of proceeding in regard to the 
 matters referred to the standing committee ? A. It is merely 
 a matter of reference to report on them after due consideration. 
 
 Q. Have the vestry in the meantime no control in the matter 
 and no voice nor influence in the course of its proceedings 1 
 A. So far from this, a full and circumstantial written report is 
 made by the standing committee at each monthly meeting of 
 the vestry, of all that has been considered and acted upon since 
 the last meeting of the body, as well as very often upon matters 
 undecided and postponed. 
 
 Q. Are the recommendations of the standing committee con- 
 clusive 1 A. By no means ; they come back to the body un- 
 doubtedly with great weight, from the care with which they 
 are made up, but not in all cases with hearty consent and im- 
 plicit submission ; and hence, very often when not approved by 
 the vestry, they are either sent back to the committee for recon- 
 sideration or at once rejected. 
 
 Q. It is stated that two of the assistant ministers of the parish 
 have made several efforts to obtain a list of the corporators, but 
 unsuccessfully, can you throw any light on this point 1 A. In 
 regard to one of the cases which I suppose to be alluded to, if 
 right in my conjecture I think that I can. Bishop Wainwright 
 applied to the rector for a loan of the book containing the names 
 of the corporators, and subsequently modified his application to 
 examine and take a copy of it, if he deemed it expedient. The 
 rector replied, " with respect to the right of any corporator to 
 examine the book there cannot be a doubt, but the taking a copy 
 of the same is a question I do not feel competent to decide." 
 The matter was submitted to the vestry who unanimously adopted 
 the following resolution : " Resolved^ That the Right Rev. Pro- 
 visional Bishop of the diocese be permitted to inspect the book, 
 containing the names of the corporators, and to make such ex- 
 tracts and copies as he should think proper." This list was 
 afterwards drawn out and handed to the Bishop by the sexton 
 of St. Pauls. The application for the list was made to the 
 
No. 95.] 
 
 35 
 
 rector, beeatise the book was sent to him for the correction of 
 the list by his annnal statement of the new communicants which 
 had been added to the parish, and the losses which it had sus- 
 tained by removals and deaths. 
 
 Q. Is the list of the corporators of Trinity Church kept in 
 the joint charge of the Comptroller and Rector? A. There 
 seems to have been some misapprehension on this subject. The 
 list is kept in the vestry office, and is under the sole custody 
 ef the Comptroller. My only agency in regard to this list, is, 
 to make an annual statement on the meeting of the Vestry, im- 
 mediately preceding the election of wardens and vestrymen at 
 Easter ; of the names of the new communicants, which have 
 been added in the interval, and the decrease of the number in 
 the same period, by death, or removal ; in order to render the 
 list more accurate and complete. This is done regularly every 
 year, and how one vestry-man, if accustomed to be in his place, 
 and giving any proper attention to the business before him, 
 could have been ignorant of the purpose for which it was done, 
 or another, having never seen this list, a privilege which he 
 had a right to demand, but, which he never appears to have 
 claimed ; is to me a matter of surprise. 
 
 Q. State, whether the book containing this list, is usually 
 taken to the place, where the election of Wardens and Vestry- 
 men is held 1 A. I know that it is frequently, if not uniformly, 
 and I believe that it is open to the inspection of any persons 
 present, who may have the euriosity to examine it. 
 
 Q. Can you inform us, whether it was one of the objects in 
 building Trinity Chapel, to increase the number of the consti- 
 tuency of Trinity parish 1 A. I think that I can. In the year 
 1848, observing the rapid changes that were going on in the 
 lower part of the city, and, that in a very short period, we had 
 lost by removal, more than half of our parishioners, I drew up 
 a very careful and elaborate report of the comparative state of 
 the parish, and submitted it to the vestry, which impressed 
 them at the time, and subsequently led to the building of the 
 chapel. As some of the motives and reasons which I presented, 
 have a bearing on the matter in question, I beg leave to make 
 
36 
 
 [Senate 
 
 a brief extract from the report itself. " From 1840 to 1848, 
 three hundred and thirty-five families and seventy individuals, 
 appear to have left the parish. Of these, a great part were 
 born and brought up in it, and completely identified with it, 
 anxious for its growth, jealous of its interests, accustomed to its 
 arrangements, attached to its usages, friendly to its clergy, 
 and to each other, and linked to it by such sacred and en- 
 dearing associations, as nothing but the force of circumstances 
 could have induced them to sever. Many of them, also, from 
 their social position, their professional standing, their educa- 
 tion, their wealth, and their influence, as well as from their 
 sound churchmanship, their unaffected piety and moral worth, 
 gave a greater degree of lustre and dignity, both in the eyes 
 of the world and the church, to the ancient and venerable 
 corporation with which they were connected. But this was 
 not all. There was then a wider range than there is now, 
 for the choice of distinguished, upright, and intelligent vestry- 
 men, who might be qualified to administer the sacred and im- 
 portant trust committed to their charge with a becoming libe- 
 rality, and yet with such wisdom and prudence as not to impair 
 in a day what might be useful to the church for ages to come.'' 
 The purpose, therefore, was perfectly reasonable and natural, 
 and such, it would seem, as every pious and judicious mind 
 would sanction and approve ; to regain and preserve tried and 
 attached friends, to keep up the standard of our constituency to 
 the elevation which it had always maintained, and to enlarge the 
 means of our usefulness to others. It was not supposed that the 
 new chapel would be entirely filled with those who were already 
 corporators as pew owners in the other churches of the parish, 
 nor has it turned out so, but that there would also be an addi- 
 tion to their number, at least as communicants, among the new- 
 comers. This is a simple and unvarnished statement of the mo- 
 tives and reasons by which the vestry were actuated in the erec- 
 tion of Trinity chapel. 
 
 Q. What can you say on the subject of the establishment of 
 free churches in the city of New- York, and the aid that Trinity 
 church has afforded them 1 A. The plan of free churches in our 
 
No. 95.] 
 
 37 
 
 communion in this country, is a very recent affair, and altogether 
 experimental, and with the excption of the church of the Holy 
 Communion, and one or two others, nearly all that has been 
 done in their behalf in this city, has been done by Trinity Church. 
 
 Q. It is stated that it does not appear from the report ot 
 Trinity Church that it has ever built any free church 1 Has it 
 done anything equivalent ? A. Though that may be true, she 
 has nevertheless done what may be regarded as a fair equiva- 
 lent. The grants of $14,000, towards the Church of the Nativity, 
 seems to be passed over slightly, as if it were a trifling affair. I 
 doubt, however, whether if it were put up for sale to-morrow, 
 it would bring much more than Trinity has bestowed on it. 
 
 Q. What has Trinity done in regard to St. George's chapel in 
 Beekman-street 1 A. Through her instrumentality it was res- 
 cued from destruction when it was about to be razed to 
 the ground. The liberality and grace of this transaction, 
 however, seemed to have been lost sight of in the report of the 
 committee of the Senate, from an error, as they suppose, in the 
 report of the committee of the vestry. 
 
 Q. Explain, if you please, your meaning on this point 1 A. 
 The vestry of St. George's wished a release of the condition on 
 which the grant of lands from Trinity church was made to St. 
 George's, in order that, being entirely unfettered, they might be 
 sold to more advantage. This was, that there should be always 
 a good and sufficient Protestant Episcopal church kept up in 
 Montgomery ward. An arrangement had, therefore, been made 
 between a committee of the vestry of Trinity church and a 
 committee of the vestry of St. George's, that, upon the release 
 of this condition, the latter should deposit ten per cent, of the 
 purchase money arising out of the sale of a portion of their 
 lands, for the purpose ol carrying out this object, and allowing 
 St. George's chapel to be sold. 
 
 When the report of this arrangement came in, I expressed my 
 great repugnance to it, as I had worshipped there in my youth; 
 and in this feeling, I remember, Mr. Verplanck, Chief Justice 
 Jones and Gen. Dix entirely sympathised with me. It was, 
 
38 
 
 [Senate 
 
 therefore, sent back to the committee for reconsideration. The 
 church was valued, by the vestry of St. George's, at $50,000. 
 With their consent, the vestry of Trinity church agreed to take 
 an abatement of $25,000 in the price of the chapel , in lieu of 
 the obligation into which St. George's had just entered, and thus 
 the venerable edifice was saved from destruction, and the condi- 
 tion of the gift fulfilled. The relief which was thus given to 
 St. George's from the harrassing and expensive claims of pew 
 owners in the chapel in Beekman-street, and owners of vaults 
 in the ground around it, in case the church had been torn down 
 and the land disposed of for more ordinary purposes; and the 
 sum that would have arisen out of the reservation of ten per 
 cent, of the purchase money in the sale of a considerable num- 
 ber of their most valuable lots, were regarded, I believe, at the 
 time, on both sides, as a fair equivalent for the deduction of 
 $25,000 from the price which was asked for the chapel. It was, 
 therefore, for a full and valuable consideration that this deduc- 
 tion was made of $25,000, and not merely for " the worth of the 
 vote;" though this valuable consideration could not have been 
 obtained without it. 
 
 Q. Beside the payment of assessments, repairs, alterations and 
 other expenses, by Trinity Church, has anything else been done 
 for St. George's in Beekman street 1 A. It has relieved the con- 
 gregation entirely from the support of their minister, and 
 assumed the payment of the whole salary itself ; thus enabling 
 it to become a free church, in a part of the city where one was 
 much needed. 
 
 Q. It is stated that it appears from the report of the commit- 
 tee of the vestry, while nineteen churches not free have been 
 aided in their support, in the city of New-York, within the last 
 five years, no mention is made of building, enlarging and en- 
 dowing them. How is this] A. If it be so stated, it must have 
 been from mere oversight; as some certainly have been aided in 
 that way. 
 
tfo. 95. [ 
 
 39 
 
 Q. Which are they ? A. Going back but a little way beyond 
 the prescribed limits, the following grants have been made : 
 
 June 12, 1848, the Holy Evangelists, $6,500 00 
 
 April 12, 1848, Free Church of the Epiphany, 6,500 00 
 
 St. George's Chapel, for assessments, repairs, altera- 
 tions, cStc, in addition to the purchase money,.. 5,660 30 
 June 28, 1847, Church of the Nativity, towards 
 
 building the same, 5,000 00 
 
 November 26, 1849, " " 4,000 00 
 
 Grace Church, Brooklyn, towards the debt incurred 
 in its building, five annual instalments of $1,000 
 
 each, ... 5,000 00 
 
 March 21, 1853, Church of the Annunciation, 25,000 00 
 
 April 9, 1855, Church of the Redeemer, at York- 
 
 ville, 9,000 00 
 
 January 9, 1854, St. Mark's, Williamsburgh, , 6 ,000 00 
 
 And coming a little this side of the limit of 5 years, 
 
 Free Church of the Holy Innocents, 5,000 00 
 
 Church of St. John the Baptist, 15,000 00 
 
 Making together, $92,660 30 
 
 Q. A question is made as to the endowment of churches in 
 
 the city of New-Yorn, by the said corporation, within the last 
 five years. What have you to say about such restriction as to 
 time ? A. Had the instructions of the committee been a little 
 more enlarged as to time, and a little more comprehensive in 
 their range, so as to include Williamsburgh and Brooklyn, which 
 are almost virtually a part of New-York, it would be seen from 
 the foregoing statement that there are no less than five free 
 churches, and five not free, that have been aided in the building, 
 enlarging, or endowing of the same. And that the aggregate 
 amount of these grants for such purposes is $92,660.30. 
 
 Q. Has Trinity done nothing more in behalf of free churches 
 than you have already stated ? A. She has made annual allow- 
 ances towards their support, to the following churches : the 
 church of the Nativity, the Epiphany, the Holy Evangelists, the 
 Holy Martyrs, the Good Shepherd, St. John the Evangelist, the 
 
40 
 
 ^Senate 
 
 Holy Innocents, St. Simons, St. Timothy, St. Cornelius, St. Bar- 
 nabas, and the Seamen's Mission Churches of the Church of the 
 Saviour and the Holy Comforter. 
 
 Q. What were the amounts of these annual allowances 1 
 A. They have varied according to the several necessities and 
 circumstances of each particular case, but range from $200 to 
 §1,200 per annum. 
 
 Q. Could these free churches, in your opinion, have been sus- 
 tained without this aid from Trinity Church 1 A. I think that 
 most of them would have languished, and been much less effec- 
 tive in their operations than they now are; and that the rest of 
 them, in a short time, would have absolutely perished. 
 
 Q. How far may Trinity Church itself be regarded as a free 
 church ? A. It is so in a great measure virtually, though not in 
 name. The parish church is open to all every morning and 
 evening each day in the year, almost literally, without money 
 and without price; and both the temporal and spiritual wants 
 of the poor who frequent it, and who live in its neighborhood, 
 are attended to with a watchfulness and kindness which have 
 been seldom equalled among us, and never surpassed. The 
 same thing may be said, in a degree, both of St. Paul's and St. 
 John's. And even in Trinity chapel, kind arrangements have 
 been made by free sittings, which enable the rich and poor to 
 meet together without any sense of humiliation. In the four 
 churches of the parish there are in effect about twelve or thir- 
 teen hundred free sittings. 
 
 Q. But has not the number of these free sittings been greatly 
 multiplied from the mere force of circumstances, arising simply 
 out of the non-occupation of the pews by their owners without 
 any action of the vestry in the matter'? A. It was not so in 
 regard to a great number of them, for it was expressly stipulated 
 in the renting of the pews in Trinity chapel, that those who 
 hired them should be exempted from all rent on their pews in 
 the churches below, on the condition that they should be placed 
 at the disposal of the vestry. 
 
 Q. And what disposition has the vestry made of them 1 A. 
 It has left them entirely free. 
 
No. 95.] 
 
 41 
 
 Q. What have you to say in regard to the sale of Zion 
 church, Christ church and St. Matthews, without any effort on 
 the part of Trinity Church to prevent it and to convert them 
 into free churches % A. From the removal of so many families 
 belonging to Zion church, and the consequent decrease of the 
 number of Episcopalians in that neigborhood, the congregation 
 was greatly reduced. All the efforts of the active, zealous and 
 indefatigable rector seemed to be fruitless, and it was constantly 
 dwindling away. Already, in grants, gifts and annual allow- 
 ances, had Trinity bestowed on Zion $41,770, a sum larger than 
 that for which it was actually sold. There must necessarily be 
 some limit to her bounty, and especially in a case like this 
 where a fresh outlay, even for a free church, seemed to hold out 
 but little promise of an adequate return. Christ church also 
 had received from Trinity the still larger amount of $77,450. 
 After these lavish gifts and grants, why should not the corpora- 
 tion of Christ church itself have turned it into a free church, 
 and not left the reproach of neglect to be borne where it did not 
 belong ; with respect to St. Matthews, by the admission of its 
 rector, it had fairly died out. In this state of things there seem- 
 ed to be but little occasion for the interposition of Trinity 
 Church. 
 
 Q. The next inquiry, according to the resolution of the Hon- 
 orable Senate, whether any, and if any, what appropriations have 
 been made by them during the last three years to institutions of 
 charity, benevolence or learning, in the city of New- York ; to 
 this inquiry what answer have you to make % A. The simple 
 regret at the same restriction as to place, the city of New- York; 
 and the still narrower restriction as to time, than in the enqui- 
 ries before it, thus cutting her off in the public mind, from the 
 grace and credit of one of the noblest acts of munificence which 
 Trinity Church, in the vastness of her bounty, has ever done. 
 
 Q. What is that? A. The grant of §50,000 to Geneva College, 
 and the arrangement by the church, to pay the interest on that 
 sum, at six per cent, until the principal should be paid ; which 
 has enabled it to become a Free College, the first instance of 
 the kind, I believe, throughout our land. 
 
42 
 
 [Senate 
 
 Q. Is there any thing else since the ample endowment of Co- 
 lumbia College, the Society for promoting religion and learning, 
 Tiinity School and Hobart Free College, that Trinity has done, 
 for institutions of charity, benevolence, and learning? A. If 
 aid to the board of missions, whose office is established in the 
 city of New-York, or to the Missionary Committee of this dio- 
 cese, whose deliberations are held in the same, be classed under 
 this head ; I may then mention, that $5,000 was granted to the 
 former, on one occasion, in behalf of the African mission, and 
 $3,000 at another, presented as an offering on the altar to the 
 latter, for the benefit of our diocesan mission. 
 
 Q. When however, was this? A. In 1851, unfortunately 
 again, a little too soon, to come within the very narrow limits 
 prescribed by the Senate, for so comprehensive an inquiry. It 
 may here be as well to account for the comparative smallness 
 of her benefactions in these three years. Trinity Church was 
 at that very time engaged in building a large, substantial and 
 expensive chapel, for reasons which, as I have already stated, 
 seemed to make it essential to her well being. But, notwith- 
 standing this temporary check to the free course of her boun- 
 ties, the gifts, grants and loans of Trinity Church, from the 
 close of 1847, to 1855, amount to $331,800.83, exclusive of the 
 abatement of $25,000, for reasons above stated, from the price 
 of St. George's. 
 
 Q. It is stated, that Trinity Church has never at any time, 
 endowed any Institutions of charity, or benevolence, even for 
 her own poor. How is this ? A. This appears to me, a most 
 remarkable statement. It has, liberally and amply endowed 
 Trinity Charity School, which has been doinj; immeasurable 
 good to her own poor, and others, from generation to genera- 
 tion, and which, from a munificent bequest, of which she is just 
 about to come in possession, promises to become one of the most 
 important institutions in the land. The testimony on this point, 
 comes from a quarter where it was but little to have been ex- 
 pected, and is calculated to leave a false impression on the 
 public mind. Neither Trinity parish, nor Trinity corporation, 
 have been so unmindful of their own poor, as the report of the 
 committee would seem to imply. The communion alms, which, 
 
No. 95.] 43 
 
 in other churches, are often appropriated to mere general pur- 
 poses, are in this parish, applied exclusively to the relief of the 
 temporal and spiritual necessities of the poor. The private con- 
 tributions of individuals, for the same benevolent purposes, in 
 connection with our parochial charities, the Dorcas societies, the 
 Industrial schools, and the Parish schools, bear some reasonable 
 proportion to the ability of our people. Besides these, there 
 are annual and occasional collections in the Parish, fnr St. Luke's 
 Home, the Orphan's Home, the House of Mercy, and for the re- 
 lief of human suffering and want, in other forms. These, ex- 
 clusive of the collections for the House of Mercy, which are now 
 in progress, amounting in the last conventional year, to between 7 
 and $8,000. In addition to this, Trinity Church corporation, 
 makes an annual contribution of $2,000 towards the Communion 
 fund, to supply the deficiencies in the offerings of the people, on 
 account of the altered condition of things in the parish. It 
 appropriates nearly $1,600 a year, to lay agents, whose business 
 it is to give needful assistance and counsel to the emigrant, on 
 his arrival at this port ; to visit the suffering poor, and ascertain 
 their fitness for the bounty of the Church, and to search out the 
 ignorant, for religious instruction . It expends about $1 000a year 
 on the Parish school of St. Paul's chapel, and it likewise em- 
 powers the Rector, with unlimited discretion, to give orders for 
 the free burial of the poor, of our own congregations, as well as 
 of others, a privilege, which is very frequently sought, and in 
 almost all cases, cheerfully granted alike, to all. 
 
 Q. It is said that there is partizanship in the grants which 
 Trinity Church has made. Is there any truth in this charge ? 
 A. As a christian man and a christian minister, I declare that I 
 have never heard one which appears to be more unfounded and 
 unjust. I have for twenty-eight years as assistant rector and 
 rector, presided at the meetings of the vestry, and I have never 
 heard a syllable from any member of that body in any applica- 
 tion before them which would warrant the charge that it would 
 be determined on partizan grounds. What influence the differ- 
 ence of opinion may exert on individual minds it is impossible 
 to tell; but I know very well that the question never comes up 
 nor is even alluded to in the vestry itself. 
 
44 
 
 [Senate 
 
 Q. How far would this distinction of partiality in the grants 
 themselves be proved by a reference to the parties to whom they 
 were made? A. So far as the city of New-York is concerned, 
 it would be a distinction without a difference; for with two 
 single exceptions, all the churches in New-York, amounting to 
 the number of fifty, have been sharers of her bounty. The fol- 
 lowing list of all the church corporations in the city of New- 
 York, is taken from the journals of the convention. Those not 
 marked with a star have been aided by Trinity Church. It will 
 be sure there are but two in the list that have not received aid 
 from Trinity. The one The Church of the Holy Communion, 
 that was built by the relict of the late John Rogers, the other is 
 the Church of the Incarnation, that occupies the building erect- 
 ed by Grace Church for a free church. 
 
 New-York City and County. 
 
 Advent, All Angels, All Saints, Annunciation, Ascension, 
 Calvary, Christ, Crucifixion, Emmanuel, Ephiphany, Holy Com- 
 forter, Our Saviour, Good Shepherd, Grace, Holy Apostles, *Holy 
 Communion, Holy Evangelists, Holy Innocents, Holy Martyrs, 
 *Incarnation, Intercession, Messiah, Nativity, Redeemer, Redemp- 
 tion, St. Andrew's, St Ann's, St. Barnabas, St. Bartholomew, St, 
 Clement's, St. Cornelius, St. Esprit, St. George's, St. George the 
 Martyr, St. James, St. John the Evangelist, St. John the Baptist, 
 St. Jude's, St. Luke's, St. Mark's, St. Mary's, St. Matthew's, St. 
 Michael's, St. Peter's, St. Philip's, St. Simon's, St. Stephen's, St. 
 Thomas, St. Timothy's, Transfiguration. 
 
 Q. But may not this aid have been rendered in different de- 
 gree ? A. It would be exceedingly difficult to made a compari- 
 son from actual facts, but I think that I may venture to say very 
 safely, that if the aggregate amount of the favors and benefits 
 received from Trinity by those churches whose rectors and ves- 
 tries are supposed not to sympathize with her in her views, were 
 set against the amount received by those whose rectors and 
 vestries cordially do, that the groundless charge of undue par- 
 tiality would be still more apparent. In this comparative esti- 
 mate, however, must be included, what the corporation has done 
 for St. Mark's church, Grace church, and St. George's, whose 
 
No. 95 ] 
 
 45 
 
 rectors, if we may judge from their evidence in the present 
 inquiry, appear to have had no great good will towards Trinity 
 Church, though with more reason for kind feeling and grateful 
 recollection than all others. 
 
 Q. Have you met with any instances among those called 
 " low " churchmen, who have viewed this matter in a different 
 light 1 A. I have with one, which is somewhat striking. A 
 few years since, a frank and high-minded clergyman, who 
 prides himself on his low churchmanship, but who is as liberal 
 in his feelings towards the views of others as he is honest in his 
 own, after having read the history of Trinity Church, expressed 
 to me his amazement at the extent of her bounties. I remarked 
 to him, however, that he would perceive they were indiscrimi- 
 nately distributed, without regard to difference of opinion, 
 among those who received them. And what if they had not 
 been, he earnestly replied, had not Trinity Church a perfect 
 right to do what she pleased with her own, I am sure I would 
 have done so. 
 
 Q. Hearsay evidence has been received to show that a certain 
 application for relief to the vestry of Trinity church had been 
 repelled by the comptroller, on the score that the parish, in 
 whose behalf it was made, had not voted in favor of Bishop 
 Orderdonk; what do you say to this ? A. If this statement be 
 true, the subject, nevertheless, from its peculiar delicacy, has 
 never been touched on in the vestry of Trinity church, and I am 
 very sure that it was never made the ground of any action in 
 this body, either in one way or the other. 
 
 Q. It is stated that the active liberality and zeal of the parish- 
 ioners of Trinity have been so far weakened, that their four 
 congregations united do less than some single independent con- 
 gregations in the same city, with little or no endowment. Is 
 this comparison well founded and just ? A. Far from it, I think. 
 It is well known that from the lower part of the city, in which 
 Trinity and St. Paul's are situated, and even as high up as St. 
 John's, nearly all the people of wealth and condition have remo- 
 ved and gone up town. Trinity church, though well attended 3 
 is almost entirely filled with strangers, and the poor,only a very 
 
46 
 
 [Senate 
 
 scanty remuant of the former congregation remaining. The 
 same may be said, in a measure, of St. Paul's, and in some 
 degree, of St. John's. The united ability of all three, for the 
 exercise of charity, I do not believe, is equal to that of the 
 congregetion to which reference is supposed to be made. 
 
 Q. What Episcopal churches, besides Trinity, St. Paul's and 
 St. John's are left in the lower part of the city ] A. None but 
 Du St. Esprit and St. George's chapel, in Beekman-street. St. 
 George's church has g me up among the rich, taking its ample 
 endowment with it. Grace church, with all its parish and indi- 
 vidual wealth, has done the same; and so likewise have Christ 
 church and the Ascension ; leaving their deserted poor in the 
 lower part of the city, almost entirely to the care of. Trinity; 
 and then she is taunted with the scantiness of her collections, 
 from those who, for the most part, have comparatively but little 
 to give. 
 
 Q. Is it true, as charged, that a general torpor pervades the 
 whole concern. A. If there were even more ground for the 
 charge than there is in regard to temporal matters, it is spirit- 
 ually full of life and activity. Notwithstanding all the re- 
 movals and all the changes which have taken place, it has not 
 for years been in a more prosperous condition. It will appear 
 from the report of the Rector made recently to the Vestry, that 
 in the course of the last conventional year, 33 adults and 400 
 children were baptised in the parish, that 176 persons were con- 
 firmed, that there are 1,100 communicants, that there were in 
 the Sunday, parish and industrial schools, 1,307 scholars and 
 teachers; and that, in the same period, there were about 2,000 
 Sunday and week-day services in the parish. 
 
 Q. But is not this state of things in the parish, in some mea- 
 sure, owing to the action of the Senate ? A. Neither the fear 
 nor favor of man had anything to do with it. The motives to 
 this activity and zeal, I humbly trust, came from a higher 
 power. In the fall of 1855, a committee was appointed by the 
 vestry on the state of the parish to consider and report thereon, 
 and with a more especial view to its future arrangements on 
 the completion of the new chapel, several meetings were held on 
 
No. 95.] 
 
 47 
 
 the subject, and all the leading features of the system were 
 marked out and settled, according to my recollection and belief, 
 before the action of the Senate. 
 
 Q. It is also stated, apparently as an instance of the same torpor, 
 that there is so little interest taken in the vestry elections, and 
 that in eight out of the past ten years, an average of hardly one 
 in ten of the corporators cared to appear. Do you consider this 
 the fair conclusion 1 A. On the contrary, I think it the very 
 reverse. It seems to me a decisive proof of the satisfaction and 
 confidence of the corporators, in the general administration of 
 the affairs of the parish. Did a different sentiment prevail, 
 whatever their sluggishness, it would soon draw them out as all 
 experience shows. 
 
 Q. Do you think that Trinity Church has done its utmost to 
 make the capital of the property of that corporation available, 
 for the founding, or support, or promotion of religious, chari- 
 table or educational institutions or purposes ? A. Making due 
 allowance for unavoidable diversities of opinion and the fallibility 
 of human judgment, and looking beyond the mere present mo- 
 ment to perpetuity in the future, I think that it has. I have 
 never known any body of men act more thoughtfully, more up- 
 rightly and conscientiously, than the vestry of Trinity Church in 
 the administration of its affairs, nor any which, in its general 
 character, surpassed it in wisdom and intelligence. 
 
 Wednesday, Afternoon, Feb. lQth. 
 Present — Senate committee, Messrs. Spencer, Noxon and 
 Ramsey. Counsel for Trinity, Judge Parker and 0. Meads, Esq. 
 
 Rev. John Henry Hobart recalled and cross-examined by coun- 
 sel for Trinity church — Q. So far as your knowledge extends, 
 what, during the time of your connection with the parish, have 
 been the policy, desire and action of Trinity church in relation 
 to making the property of that corporation available for the 
 founding, support or promotion of religious, charitable or edu- 
 cational institutions or purposes 1 A.I believe, so far as I have 
 
48 
 
 [ Senate 
 
 knowledge, that the vestry have acted in good faith, to the best 
 of their judgment, in order to make their property available for 
 the purposes named in the question. 
 
 lit. Rev. Bishop Potter, recalled by counsel for Trinity — 
 Q. Have, or have not the grants of Trinity church made to other 
 churches, in the form of grants of money, secured by mortgages 
 or otherwise, or in the form of annual stipends, had the effect to 
 promote dependency, feebleness and deadness in the parishes thus 
 aided, or what has been the effect of such grants in each of those 
 forms of grants upon the internal condition of the parishes aided] 
 A. I do not see why the assistance spoken of in the question should 
 be injurious to the parishes in the respect mentioned in the ques- 
 tion; nor do I believe that it has been; but on the contrary, benefi- 
 cial. It has encouraged parishes to exertion in many instances, 
 when otherwise they would have been unable to maintain them- 
 selves. The feeling often has been, I think, that the parishes, after 
 receiving such aid, have laid themselves under special obligations 
 to exert themselves. If it was an absolute grant, with a mortgage, 
 it did not differ essentially from any other gilt, except that the ob- 
 ligation spoken of was increased. If it was an annual stipend, it 
 was like the stipend granted by the missionary committee of the 
 diocese, and those annual stipends have been provided for by the 
 collective wisdom of the church in the diocese, as a part of her or- 
 ganised system. It must imply an opinion,on the part of the whole 
 church in the diocese, that that mode of rendering assistance is 
 a useful mode. I have known many cases where the question of 
 a church being able to sustain itself in a given community, or 
 being able to maintain itself, seemed to depend upon the assist- 
 ance it received from Trinity church. 
 
 Q. Will you explain more fully, your meaning in regard to 
 the nature of your supervision over the affairs of Trinity Church? 
 A. It is with the affairs of Trinity Church; as with those of 
 every other parish in the diocese. The Rector, Wardens, and 
 Vestrymen, are an integral portion of the church of which I 
 am an overseer, and I cannot conceive, that in any part of their 
 official conduct, they are exempt from a certain general re- 
 sponsibility to me, nor is the idea of such responsibility des- 
 
No. 95.1 
 
 49 
 
 troyed by the fact, that I do not supervise their appropriations, 
 that my assent is not necessary to the validity of their grants, 
 and that they make no report of their grants to me. Since I 
 have been in office, a majority of the vestrymen of a parish, 
 ( not Trinity Church), laid before me, charges against their 
 Rector, of misconduct, in regard to the funds of the parish. I 
 ordered a committee of inquiry. Had that committee found the 
 charges warranted, in appearance, by the facts, the Rector would 
 have been put upon his trial ; but they were found to be ground- 
 less. The transactions of the parish, out of which this diffi- 
 culty arose, were not of a nature to be included in the usual 
 reports to me, nevertheless, the case shows that there was a re- 
 sponsibility to the head of the diocese, which extended to all 
 those unreported transactions. Again, during the Episcopate of 
 my immediate predecessor, there was a case, in which a Rector 
 charged his Vestry with misconduct in the management of the 
 funds of the parish. The Bishop ordered a committee of in- 
 quiry ; I was the chairman of the committee. Witnesses came 
 before us, the conduct of the Vestry was inquired into, and a 
 report made to the Bishop, that the allegations of the Rector, 
 were unsupported by the facts. In this case also, the transac- 
 tions in question, were not of that class, which are ever included 
 in the parochial reports to the Bishop. Nevertheless, they were 
 so far under his general supervision, that there was room for his 
 interposition, if a special difficulty should require it. Let me 
 further illustrate \ I am to oversee the conduct of the clergy. 
 It is the duty of a clergyman to visit his flock, but he does not 
 report to me the number, or frequency of his visits, and no 
 doubt there might be some degree of neglect, without my know- 
 ledge, or without my considering it a case for special interfe- 
 rence. So, any parish may commit many errors in church build- 
 ing, and in the management of its funds, without my know- 
 ledge, and without my thinking it a case for interference, even 
 if I was aware of it. But this does not at all destroy the idea, 
 so familiar to the mind of every churchman, the idea I had in 
 my mind, in my former testimony, that the Rector, Wardens, 
 and Vestrymen of a parish, cannot act in any official way, in 
 any matter pertaining to church property, and the interests of 
 [Senate, No. 95.J 4 
 
50 
 
 [Senate 
 
 the church, without a certain general responsibility to the head 
 of the diocese ; and, as in the cases I have just cited, that re- 
 sponsibility, is not a mere theoiy, but a practicable reality. 
 
 By the Senate committee : 
 
 Q. I should understand, sir, your first answer to imply, that 
 you think it an advantage to a church to have its property 
 under mortgage, do you so intend the reply ? A. As I have be- 
 fore stated in my testimony, I consider the mortgage a nullity, 
 except for the purpose of preventing the sale of the church 
 property and its alienation from its sacred use ; and, therefore, I 
 consider it no disadvantage, and if I had a positive opinion to 
 give I should incline to give the opinion that it was an advan- 
 tage. I take it for granted that that opinion cannot be construed 
 to be an opinion in favor of an incumbrance by mortgate in the 
 abstract. 
 
 Q. Are you aware that under such mortgages interest ac- 
 cumulates, and that it is in the power of the holders to collect 
 them 1 A.I am. 
 
 Q. Do you by your answer in explanation, mean to be under, 
 stood that you have any charge, direction or control, in any 
 way or manner, over the funds administed by the corporation 
 Trinity Church ? A. I have already stated in a previous an. 
 swer that I have no immediate oversight. 
 
 Q. Have you any remote oversight ? A. My assent, I have 
 already stated, is not essential to the validity of a grant ; I am 
 not generally cognizant of the internal or financial affairs of that 
 or any other parish, but I must think, as is implied in my former 
 answer, that all the official conduct of vestries is, in a genera] 
 ecclesiastical sense, which I have partly explained in a former 
 answer, subject to the jurisdiction of the head of the diocese. 
 
 Q. Do you regard the funds controled by this corporation in 
 the same light you do the financial affairs of other church cor- 
 porations, not having large estates. A. In one respect I do. 
 They are just as much the exclusive property of that corporation 
 as the property of any other church is. The magnitude of the 
 
No. 95.] 
 
 51 
 
 property places it in certain general moral relations to the 
 diocese at large, which have been very largely recognized by 
 the parish. 
 
 Q. Do you regard your control over this corporation and all 
 others in this diocese alike ? A. It has never occurred to me 
 that there was any difference. 
 
 Q. For a misapplication or mal-administration of her fund? 
 what discipline would you inflict ? A. I have already stated 
 that in the case of every parish there may be many errors, many 
 omissions of duties, which would not call for any interposition. 
 What action I might be induced to take under particularly extreme 
 circumstances, I certainly cannot foresee. 
 
 Q. I do not ask you what action you might take. I ask you 
 what power you have, by virtue of your office as bishop ? A.I 
 have the power by canon of looking into the affairs of the par- 
 ishes I visit. I have the power, by virtue of my office, of advice 
 and admonition. If there be gross misconduct in the parish it 
 must be either with or without the connivance of the rector. It 
 is not easy to be without. If it amounts to crime or immorality 
 it of course exposes the rector to be dealt with as in the case I 
 have mentioned in a former answer. 
 
 Q. Is not all your power of a spiritual and ecclesiastical 
 nature 1 A. Yes sir. 
 
 Examination by counsel for Trinity. Rev. William Berrian 
 re-called : 
 
 Q. Can you tell what gifts Trinity Church has made for the 
 founding or support or promotion of religious, charitable or edu- 
 cational institutions or purposes, and what is the amount of such 
 gifts made prior to the 25th of January, 1814, and what subse- 
 quent to that date 1 A. The following grants of land were made 
 by Trinity Church, prior to 1814 : 
 
 1786, 3 lots to the senior pastors of the Presbyterian congrega 
 
 tions in this city. 
 1765, 2 lots to the corporation for the ferry between this city 
 
 and Pawles Hook. 
 
 1775, 2 lots to the same for a pier and slip on the north side of 
 Vesey-street. 
 
52 
 
 [Senate 
 
 1800, for a market in Duane street; and for another in Christo- 
 pher-street. 
 
 1810, 2 lots for a free school in Hudson-street. 
 
 1752, grants of land, between Murray and Barclay-streets and 
 extending from Church-street to the river, to Columbia 
 college. 
 
 1748, Grants for the site of Trinity Charity school. 
 1800, 7 lots to the same. 
 
 1802, 32 lots to the Society for the Promotion of Religion and 
 
 Learning. 
 1795, 28 lots to St. Mark's church. 
 
 1811, 25 lots to Grace church. 
 
 1812, 33 lots to St. George's. 
 
 1795, 5 lots to St. Peter's, Westchester. 
 
 1807, 3 lots to St. Stephen's. 
 
 1807, 6 lots to St. Michael's and St. James'. 
 
 1813, 4 lots to St. James'. 
 1805, 4 lots to Christ church. 
 
 108 lots from 1795 to 1805 inclusive. 
 1809, 3 lots to St. George's, Flushing; 3 to Grace church, 
 Jamaica; 3 to St. James', Newtown; 2 to St. Ann's, Brook- 
 lyn; 3 to Trinity, Utica. 
 Grants in money and a bond during the same 
 
 period, $238,220 22| 
 
 1,500 00 
 
 $239,720 22| 
 
 The following are the grants in land by Trinity Church, from 
 1814 to August, 1855 : 
 
 1815, a grant of land to the Free School Society. 
 1820, 3 lots to St. Luke's. 
 
 1827. 2 do 
 
 1834. 3 do 
 
 1835, 1 lot to the Ascension. 
 
 1832, 5 lots to Trinity school at a mere nominal rent. 
 
 In money during the same period, $998,703 60 
 
 There may be some discrepancy, but if so my statement under 
 rates. 
 
No. 95.] 53 
 
 Q. How did you acquire the knowledge necessary to enable 
 you to make the statement contained in your last answer 1 
 A. From a careful examination of the minutes of the vestry 
 from 1697 to 1855. When I was in doubt I usually consulted 
 the officers of the corporation, the comptroller and clerk, to 
 clear it up, if they knew anything about it. 
 
 Q. Is the statement correct that in addition to the require- 
 ments of the law, the church required that all persons desiring 
 to vote should give previous notice of such desire to the rector ? 
 A. I don't know of any such requisition. 
 
 Q. Were there any, and if any, what Episcopal church corpo- 
 rations in the city of New- York, prior to 1814, besides the cor- 
 poration of Trinity Church 1 A. There were nine, to wit : St. 
 Marks, Christs, Grace, St. George's, Du St. Esprit, St. Stephens, 
 Zion, St. Michaels, and St. James. 
 
 Q. Did the members of either of these corporations, independ- 
 ent of Trinity Church, ever claim or exercise the right of voting 
 as corporators of Trinity Church, before the act of 1814? A. I 
 never heard of the exercise; but I think I have heard of the 
 claim. I never heard of the claim being made but once prior 
 to 1814. 
 
 Q. Was it granted at that time 1 A. I do not think it was. 
 I never heard that it was. 
 
 Q. Was such a right ever claimed or exercised since 1814 ? 
 A. I never knew it to be claimed but on one occasion, that was 
 during my rectorship, when I was presiding. It was not exer- 
 cised. It was accompanied by a threat that it would be exer- 
 cised, but it was never carried out. I think it was between ten 
 and fifteen years ago. It was by Mr. Walter M. Rutherford. 
 Such a right has never been exercised. 
 
 Q. Is the Rev. Robert S. Howland generally deemed a " high » 
 churchman, or a " low" churchman'? A. He has always been 
 reputed a " high " churchman. 
 
 Q. Did the vestry in 1813, to calm the fears of the Legislature, 
 promise that their funds should be applied to the building of 
 
54 
 
 [Senate 
 
 churches from time to time as the increase of population de- 
 manded, the control of said churches to be relinquished to 
 independent vestries, &c, and suitable endowments to be made? 
 A. I never heard that they made such a promise, nor knew any 
 thing about it until I read it in the report of this committee. 
 
 By the Senate committee : 
 
 Q. You stated yesterday that a large sum had been given to 
 the church of the Nativity, I would inquire whether a mortgage 
 was taken for it 1 A. I presume that it was, but perhaps not 
 for the whole amount. There were two sums of $5,000 at one time 
 and $4,000 at another, I presume that the mortgages were given 
 for those two sums. 
 
 Q. You stated yesterday that the vestry had a meeting, dis- 
 cussed the subject and agreed to allow certain ministers to 
 examine the list of corporators ; was that the first permission of 
 that kind that had been given ? A. It was the first request that 
 had ever been made to me, that I remember ; my answer was 
 that there was no doubt of the right of the corporators to examine 
 the list, but to take a copy of it, it was not my province to deter- 
 mine; I brought the question before the vestry as to the right to 
 take a copy ; the vestry resolved that the bishop might make 
 such extracts, or take a copy of the whole of it if he desired. A 
 copy was taken by the rector of St. Paul's and sent to the bishop. 
 
 Q. Did not St. George's and some other churches named by 
 you, relinquish all right to the property of Trinity Church and 
 all right to interfere in its affairs 1 A.I have always under- 
 stood that they had. 
 
 Q. Did those churches offer to vote after that? A. Never, 
 that I know of. 
 
 Q. Did not Col. Troop represent Trinity Church in 1813, '14 5 
 at Albany 1 A. He was a member of a committee of seven on 
 the state of the church, and with full power to make application 
 to the Legislature ; the other members were Richard Harrison, 
 David M. Clarkson, Thomas Barrow, Robert Troop, Jacob 
 Le Roy, Peter Augustus Jay, and Thomas L. Ogden. 
 
No. 95.J 
 
 55 
 
 Q. Is there not a great want of Episcopal churches in some 
 parts of the city of New- York ? A. I would say there is a want; 
 I cannot say a great want, in the eastern part of the city, par- 
 ticularly. 
 
 Q. Did Trinity Church ever build a free church ? A. She 
 has in effect; she has not in fact. She has given as much 
 as would pay for the church. 
 
 Q. What was the cost of Trinity Church 1 A. I think it was 
 about $350,000; the chapel cost $227,000. 
 
 Q. Do you think the Episcopal church in the city has kept 
 pace with the increase of the population of the city ? A.I have 
 always considered it has. 
 
 Q. Was it not considered important by the clergy of the city 
 and particularly by Bishop Wainright, to keep up Zion Church 
 at the time it was sold ? A. I know it was by him; but I know 
 nothing of the opinions of others. 
 
 Q. Did Bishop Onderdonk ever exercise or attempt to exer- 
 cise any power over the vestry of Trinity Church, as a vestry % 
 A. Not that I remember. I think I can say he did not. 
 
 Q. Are the recommendations of the standing committee 
 always reported to the vestry ] A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Did you ever know of the recommendations of the stand- 
 ing committee being overruled by the vestry? A. Scores of 
 times. 
 
 Q. You speak of a resolution having passed the vestry, in 
 relation to allowing Bishop Wainright to take a copy of a list 
 of corporators. What called for this action on the part of the 
 vestry 1 A. The reason was the bishop wrote to me requesting 
 the list from me. I replied that I had no power myself to lend 
 the book, though he had the right to examine it. 
 
 Q. When was it 1 A.I think it was in 1853, shortly after he 
 became bishop. 
 
 Q. Had he applied for it previously without success ? A. I 
 understood that he applied to a clerk in the vestry office, who 
 declined as I did, because he had not the power to do it. 
 
56 
 
 [ Senate 
 
 Q. Did he ask to see it? A. I do not know; I presume he 
 did. I think he asked me to see it. 
 
 Q. Did you show it to him ? A. I think not. 
 
 Q. Why not j A. I have not the custody of the book. It is 
 not in my office or custody. 
 
 Q. Who had it? A. At that particular time it was with me. 
 
 Q. Why did you not show it to him ? A. I had it for the 
 purpose of entering the names of new communicants, and the 
 changes by death and removal. 
 
 Q. Did that prevent your showing it to him ? A. I had no 
 control in the matter. I looked upon the book as belonging to 
 the comptroller and not to me. 
 
 Q. What are your powers, if any, over the books of the cor- 
 poration ! A. I have the sole custody of the parish register, 
 containing the records of baptisms, marriages and burials; and 
 those are the only books over which I have any control, though 
 they are all open to my examination. 
 
 Q. Do you know of anything in the act of incorporation, or 
 rules of the vestry, to prevent your showing the book to any 
 person who applies to see it? A. I do not. 
 
 Q. Then, I again ask, why you did not show it to him ? A. 
 Because I thought it was the proper business of the comptroller 
 to let him see it. 
 
 Q. Why .any more proper for the comptroller than the rector? 
 A. Because the book is one that was under his custody. I have 
 no other answer to give. 
 
 Q. Was it placed there by law, or by action of the vestry ? 
 A. By usage, and the necessity of the case. 
 
 Q. What churches were enlarged or endowed in the city of 
 New- York, for the three years prior to April 13, 1855 ? A. Two; 
 the church of the Annunciation, §25,000, and church of the 
 Redeemer, at Yorkville, $9,000. 
 
No. 95.] 57 
 
 Q. At the time St. Matthew's made application to Trinity for 
 aid, was it admitted by its rector that it had fairly " died out V* 
 A. I understood it had, from the testimony. 
 
 Q. Can you state when the application, in schedule G, was 
 made to Trinity ? A. I do not remember exactly the date of it ; 
 less than two years ago. 
 
 Q. Had it "died out" then ? A. I believe it had. 
 
 Q. Do they not state In the application, that unless you gave 
 them aid, they will cease to exist in May following 1 A. It 
 appears to be so. 
 
 Q. Did you then understand, when you received it, that it was 
 already dead 1 A. I understood that it was in a low condition. 
 I knew it to be so for a long time before. 
 
 Q. Was her debt, as represented to you in that memorial, more 
 than §4,800 — §3,500 of which was on the parsonage ? A. It is 
 represented in the application at §4,800. 
 
 Q. Was the parsonage of that church separate from the church] 
 A. It was on ground that belonged to the church, and not 
 adjoining it. 
 
 Q. Why do you say the church was in a low condition', with 
 only a debt of §1,300 1 A. My impressions of its being so 
 were made from conversations with Mr. Pound, the rector, that 
 it was in a very languishing condition. 
 
 Q. Have you stated the true and only reason for not giving 
 her aid % A. I don't know of any other, I am not aware of 
 any other. 
 
 Q. Was not one reason for refusing the aid that the request 
 was disrespectful in its language 1 A. I do not know. 
 
 Q. What was the church edifice and lot worth, in your judg- 
 ment? A. I suppose §15,000, perhaps a little more. 
 
 Q. Why did you not rescue her from her embarrassment 1 
 A. Because it was not thought worth the expenditure. It was 
 surrounded with other churches. 
 
58 
 
 [Senate 
 
 Q. Do you regard Trinity Charity school as an institution of 
 charity or benevolence, within the meaning of the resolution 
 propounded by the Senate 1 — (Resolution was read.) A. I do, 
 in an eminent degree; I will state the reason why. First, the 
 education of our own ignorant poor children; in the next place, 
 for a long course of years they weie aided in their clothing as 
 well as education, and there are now 50 to 70 beneficiaries who, 
 in addition to their instruction, receive stipends from $20 to $50 
 per year, to help them in their clothing, &c; it is a day school. 
 
 Q. What are the Dorcas societies ? A. Societies for making 
 garments for the poor. I regard these as benevolent societies; 
 these societies are not aided by the funds of Trinity corporation. 
 Industrial schools are those in which the poor, especially girls, 
 are taught by the ladies, sewing, and where the garments are 
 given away to the poor. They are not endowed by Trinity; one 
 of the parish schools is endowed by Trinity, the others are sup- 
 ported by private contributions of the parishioners. 
 
 Q. Which do you allude to, as being spiritually full of life 
 and activity, Trinity Parish, or the Rector, Wardens and Vestry- 
 men, in the administration of her fund ? A. I mean that there 
 is great activity and zeal on the part of the clergy of the parish, 
 and of* the congregations who unite in these efforts, and that 
 the rector, the wardens, and vestrymen, heartily sympathize with 
 them, and aid them, in the prosecution of this work. 
 
 Q. How do you know the nine Episcopal churches which ex- 
 isted prior to 1814, did not vote for vestrymen in Trinity parish? 
 A. I was very intimate with Bishop Hobart, from 1805. He was 
 very communicative to me, though a young man, and I have no 
 recollection of ever having heard him say, that there was any 
 exercise of such privilege. 
 
 Q. Did you ever hear him say, they did not 1 A. No ; I have 
 been in the parish since the latter part of 1811, and certainly 
 should have known of it, had it ever been exercised. 
 
 Q. What was your position from 1811 to 1814, in the Church? 
 A. An assistant minister of Trinity Church. 
 
No. 95.] 59 
 
 Q. Do the records of the church, show who voted in 1813? 
 A. The clerk always takes down the names of the voters at the 
 elections, with the several churches of the parish to which the 
 voters belong. 
 
 Q. Have you ever examined the record, with the view to find 
 out, whether the nine churches did then actually vote ? A. I 
 have not. 
 
 Q. Are the lists of persons voting at last election, preserved 
 in Trinity Church? A. I preserve my own very carefully, I 
 do not know whether the clerk does. 
 
 Q. If any such lists are to be found, would they not show 
 whether any of the persons belonging to the nine churches, 
 voted? A. If in existence, I suppose they would. 
 
 Q. What are the salaries of each, and all the officers connec- 
 ted with Trinity Church ? A. The rector receives a salary of 
 $3,500 per annum, and a house with a stable ; the five assistant 
 ministers get $3000 per annum, and an allowance of $1,100 for 
 house rent; three other assistant ministers receive $1500 per 
 annum, and no house ; the comptroller receives $3,500 ; the 
 clerk of the vestry $1,000 per annum ; the collector $1,200 per 
 per annum, clerk in the office $1200. 
 
 Q. Is an allowance of $1,100 to all assistant ministers, for 
 rent, sufficient ? A. With moderate views, it is. 
 
 Q. Is the answer given on page seventeen of the report of 
 Trinity church, the correct one ? A. I presume it is correct. 
 It reads : 
 
 Grants and Burial Places in Trinity Cemetery, 
 
 To the Orphan Asylum, a plot containing 621 square feet. 
 To the society for the relief of aged and indigent females, a plot 
 containing 300 square feet. To the Protestant Episcopal Mutual 
 Benefit Society, a plot containing 600 square feet. To Christ 
 church, a plot to be selected. To the Orphan's Home, a plot to 
 be selected. 
 
 By counsel for Trininty — Q. How do these salaries, paid to 
 the clergy of Trinity parish, compare with salaries paid to other 
 
60 
 
 [Senate 
 
 clergy in the city of New- York ? A. They are considerably 
 less; Dr. Tyng's salary amounts, I am told, to about $6,000; Dr. 
 Hawk's, about $5,000 or $6,000; the rector of St. Thomas 
 receives $5,200. 
 
 By the Senate committee — Q. Do you understand the act of 
 1814 to restrict the number of persons qualified to vote for 
 church wardens or vestrymen of Trinity church, who had the 
 right to vote before that time ] A. I do not suppose that it was 
 intended to restrict any any who had a right; but let me add, 
 that I do not think any had the right before, who did not belong 
 to the parish of Trinity church. 
 
 Examination by counsel for Trinity. — Rev. Francis Vinton 
 called and sworn — Q. What means have you of being acquainted 
 with the affairs, of Trinity church? A. I am an assistant min- 
 ister there, and have been so since June 1855. 
 
 Q. What number of ministers are there in Trinity parish, and 
 how are they employed, and what are the character and num- 
 ber of the congregations which attend the several churches in 
 that parish 1 A. There are nine ministers, the rector and eight 
 assistants. Two are employed at the church, and two in each of 
 the chapels; the rector having general supervision. At St. Paul's 
 chapel, the only one I speak of, the congregation is composed of 
 three classes: first, the old families retaining their seats; second, 
 strangers Irom the hotels, clerks and sojourners of the city, 
 engaged, for the most part, in mercantile business; third, me- 
 chanics, artisans, porters, washer-women, hucksters, and mis- 
 cellaneous poor, who obtain their living by daily labor. 
 
 Q. Will you be good enough to explain the arrangements ior 
 parochial work at St. Paul's chapel, and as to the work of that 
 kind actually done by the minister and others there employ- 
 ed 1 A. There is a parish school employing two teachers 
 with voluntary assistance from the women of the parish, to teach 
 poor children the principles of religion, as professed by the 
 Episcopal church, the elements of common learning; sewing to 
 the extent of each making their own clothing, and as laboring to 
 get their own living, and also instructions in church music. 
 
No. 95.] 
 
 61 
 
 The number of children is 80 or 100 ; also a Sunday school in- 
 cluding other children of the parish, taught by between twenty 
 and thirty teachers of both sexes ; two classes for advanced 
 scholars, also a weekly Bible class for clerks and young men. 
 The public services in the chapel are every Sunday morning 
 and afternoon, five months in the year, and a night service ad- 
 ditional for seven months. I officiate statedly only in morning 
 service, the other parts of the day being employed in other parts 
 of the parish, at the church or chapel, and, therefore, can speak 
 only of the congregation in the morning. Then it is large, as it 
 is at all the chapels ; the communion's offerings liberal, as 
 shown from the tact that on Easter day they amounted to the 
 sum of §270, and on Christmas day to $180, or thereabouts. 
 At other times the contributions are generous. There is es- 
 tablished in connection with St. Paul's chapel a mission house, 
 open from 9 A. M. to 2 P. M., where one of the assistant minis- 
 ters is present every day. There are two laymen employed to 
 inquire into and examine every application for aid, and report 
 the same to the office. The case is recorded in a book kept for 
 that purpose, and a record made of all that was done in each 
 case. The applicants are from vestrymen wanting clergymen, 
 clergymen wanting parishes, poor wanting help, the sick medi- 
 cine, the emigrant advice, &c. The office is in communication 
 with most of the extant institutions of charity in the city of 
 New-York. Cards are placed in hotels and eating houses, in- 
 viting guests, in my own name, to attend St. Paul's chapel, 
 where free sittings are provided. We have received letters from 
 persons we have aided, expressing their thanks to Trinity Church. 
 
 Q. Do you think Trinity Church has done its utmost to make 
 the capital of the property of that corporation, available for the 
 founding, or support or promotion of reli gious, charitable or 
 educational institutions or purposes 1 A. I can speak only of 
 what I have known of Trinity Church since my connection with 
 it in June, 1855, and I say in answer to the question, that I have 
 observed an earnest disposition so to do on the part of the rector, 
 wardens and vestrymen of that corparation. 
 
 Adjourned to 4 P. M., Thursday. 
 
62 
 
 [Senate 
 
 Thursday Afternoon, Feb. 19, 1857. 
 Present, the Senate Committee, Messrs. Spencer, Noxon and 
 Ramsey; Judge Parker and 0. Meads, Esq., counsel for Trinity 
 Cliurch. 
 
 Rev. Sullivan H. Weston recalled. Examined by counsel for 
 Trinity Church. 
 
 Q. Have you any explanation to make in regard to your 
 answer contained in your former testimony ? — [Referring to testi- 
 mony taken before the committee in New- York.] A. I con- 
 sidered that when I said that I could not answer the question, 
 that that was the end of my testimony; the chairman of the 
 committee observing that that would do, and the rest of the 
 answer as given was said after I had supposed my evidence was 
 closed, and as I supposed, in the way of conversation, to the 
 committee; and when I alluded to their property, I alluded to 
 the current reports as to their boundless wealth. I was very 
 desirous to come up and qualify, lest my former testimony might 
 be misunderstood. 
 
 Q. Do you think the vestry of Trinity Church has done its 
 utmost to make the capital of the property of that corporation 
 available for the founding, or support, or promotion of religious, 
 charitable or educational institutions or purposes 1 A. I can 
 answer that question as I did in the first instance. I do not 
 know what their capabilities are, but my opinion was, that less 
 should be given abroad and more in Trinity parish. By abroad 
 I mean any where out of our parish . I do not doubt the sin 
 cerity of the vestry in trying to do the best they could. 
 
 Q. Have you any different opinion on this subject than you 
 had when examined before ? A. My opinion is the same now 
 as then. 
 
 Q. Was not the reply of the chairman of the committee, at 
 the previous examination, that w that would do," intended to dis- 
 miss you? A. Yes. 
 
 By the Senate Committee : 
 
 Q. Is there not great complaint among the clergy of Trinity 
 Church at the doings and dealings of the vestry ? A.I have 
 heard some complaints. 
 
No. 95.] 
 
 63 
 
 Q. If you had known, when you answered before, that the 
 property of the church was worth $6,000,000 or 7,000,000, would 
 you not have answered as before 1 A. My answer is, that I 
 should want more done in the lower part of the city, and less 
 elsewhere. 
 
 Q. Was it not, a short time ago, in agitation among the clergy 
 of Trinity parish, to make a representation, in a united manner, 
 of the wrong doings of the vestry % A. Not to my knowledge. 
 
 Q. Were you not spoken to by some of the clergy about the 
 necessity of some such interference to change the dealings and 
 policy of Trinity Church? A. Some of the clergy had agreed 
 with me that more should be done down town, and this w r as pre- 
 vious to their ]ast action in appointing additional force in the 
 parish. 
 
 Q. Has not Dr. Higby and others, represented to you that 
 the policy of the vestry w T as ruinous to the church 1 A. I do 
 not remember of others, I know that Dr. Higby has spoken of 
 the past policy as not being the best policy. 
 
 Q. You spoke of appointing force in the parish ; when did it 
 take place ? A. About two years ago ; do'nt recollect the time 
 nearer. 
 
 By Counsel for Trinity Church. 
 
 Q. I want you to explain what you mean by saying you heard 
 some complaints among the clergy, about the dealings and 
 doings of the vestry ? A. One complaint was in reference to 
 the wish for increased expenditures dow r n town, in order to meet 
 the wants of the poor. 
 
 Q. Were those complaints made, before the additional minis- 
 ters of Trinity Church were appointed'? A. They were. 
 
 Q. If you had known that the w T hole income of Trinity 
 Church was only about $100,000 per annum, should you say that 
 they could accomplish more good with it than they have done 1 
 A. I think they could not. 
 
 Q. You stated that Dr. Higby complained of the past policy 
 as not being the best policy, in what respect; did he think it 
 
64 
 
 I Senate 
 
 not the best? A. One, was in reference to more enlarged pro- 
 vision down town, and the other, in reference to the building of 
 Trinity Chapel up town, to accommodate the parishioners who 
 had moved up town. 
 
 Q. Have both those defects been supplied ? A. The chapel 
 has been built, and we need more means down town, in Trinity 
 parish, if they can afford it. 
 
 By the Committee : 
 
 Q. Is there not a great want of Episcopal churches in New- 
 York, for the accommodation of the poor, or working classes 1 
 A. Undoubtedly ; heretofore, we have not had force enough to 
 fill the churches we had ; that, is now in a great measure re- 
 medied There is no necessity of building more churches in 
 that part of the town, until those already constructed, are filled. 
 
 Q. Is there not a great want of Episcopal churches in the 
 eastern and northeastern parts of the city, for the poor or work- 
 ing-classes ? A. I presume it is so; it is so represented. It is 
 not in my parish. I do not know what the religious opinions 
 are of the population in those parts of the city. 
 
 Examination by counsel for Trinity church. — Samuel T. Skid- 
 more called and sworn — Q. Are j'ou a member of the vestry of 
 Trinity church ] How long have you been, and how long a 
 member of the standing committe % A. I have been a member 
 of the vestry about ten years, and of the standing committee 
 some six or eight years. 
 
 Q. Is there any rule of the vestry, or directions of the stand- 
 ing committee, which prevents a corporator seeing the list of 
 the corporators ? A. None that I am aware of, or ever heard of. 
 
 Q. Do you understand that any corporator has a right to see 
 the list 1 A. I do. 
 
 Q. If there has been a refusal to show such list, was it by any 
 directions of the vestry, or standing committee? A. No, sir; 
 not that I am aware of. 
 
 Q. Was ever any request, either for an inspection, or copy of 
 the list of corporators, brought to the attention of the vestry ? 
 
No. 95.] 
 
 65 
 
 A. The attention of the vestry was called to an application by 
 Dr. Wainright to get a copy of the list of corporators. 
 
 Q. Was it granted? A. It was, unanimously, I believe. 
 
 Q. Was any other application, either for an inspection, or 
 copy, ever- made to the vestry 1 A. Not that I am aware of. 
 
 Q. Have the grants made by the vestry been made in a parti- 
 zan spirit, or with reference to " high" church and " low" church 
 opinions 1 A. I should say, decidedly not. I would say fur- 
 ther, that the question of 11 high" and " low" church, during 
 the time I have been in the vestry, has been very seldom, if ever, 
 alluded to; and if I thought that any application, in all other 
 respects meritorious, should be rejected on the ground of its 
 being u low" church, I should resign my place as a member of 
 the standing committee. 
 
 Q. Have the vestry been, to your knowledge or judgment, 
 partial in making their appropriations to other churches 1 A. I 
 have always endeavored to be impartial, myself, and I have no 
 reason to doubt that the other members were actuated by the 
 same motives. 
 
 Q. What influenced the standing committee and the vestry in 
 their action upon the application of St. Matthew's Church? 
 A. St. Matthew's made a large demand upon Trinity, larger than 
 we thought we could reasonably grant, and we thought that in the 
 then state of that parish that a partial appropriation would do 
 but little good. I would state that the application seemed 
 couched in very peremptory terms, and I reeollect that, as a 
 member of the standing committee, I said we should divest our- 
 selves of all feeling in consequence of the peculiar style of the 
 application, and aid them if we could. We had very little faith 
 of the church succeeding if w T e did aid them. There were other 
 churches in the vicinity. 
 
 Q. It is charged that the vestry of Trinity Church have mate- 
 rially reduced the stipends formerly paid to clergymen in the 
 city of New- York. How is the fact 1 A. Trinity Church has 
 taken away stipends from certain churches whose congregations 
 
 [Senate, No. 95.] 5 
 
[Senate 
 
 they thought did not need them, being abundantly able to do 
 without them; and grants of stipends were made in other 
 instances where they were more needed. The aggregate, I think, 
 has not been reduced. 
 
 Q. Do you think Trinity Church has done its utmost to make 
 the capital of the property of that corporation available for the 
 founding or support, or promotion of religious, charitable or 
 educational institutions, or purposes 1 A.I think Trinity 
 Church has made appropriations for religious objects as far, if 
 not farther, than prudence would warrant in reference to her 
 means. 
 
 Q. Have its expenditures and donations exceeded or fallen 
 short of its income 1 A. I think that for the last two or three 
 years her expenditures have exceeded her income considerably 
 over §100,000; I think for some years previous, for the past half 
 dozen years, her expenditures have largely exceeded her income. 
 
 Q. "Will you state whether in your judgment these expendi- 
 tures have been discreetly and wisely made? A. I certainly 
 think so, except as to their undue extent. 
 
 Q. What was the rule that governed the vestry, in regard to 
 helping churches of feeble means 1 A. I think that one favorite 
 kind of appropriation was to parishes that had made great 
 efforts to help themselves, which had received help from others, 
 and where additional aid from Trinity Church was highly essen- 
 tial to ensure success. 
 
 Q. Is it true that aid was given to churches reluctantly and 
 offensively ? A. Reluctantly, only, when we thought our sym- 
 pathies were running away with our better judgment. Never 
 offensively, I should hope. Applications are very numerous, 
 and very many of a highly meritorious character, and which 
 enlisted our strongest sympathies, we have felt compelled most 
 reluctantly to refuse. When we had the means we took great 
 pleasure in granting their applications. 
 
 Q. What proportion of the applications were you able to act 
 upon favorably? A. I certainly think not over one-tenth. 
 
No. 95.] 67 
 
 Q. Do you remember any meeting of the vestry when you had 
 not a large number of those applications pending before you ? 
 A. I do not remember any meeting of the vestry when there 
 were not more or less of these applications pending before us, 
 unless a meeting of the vestry had been held just after the 
 whole number before the vestry of these applications had been 
 disposed of. There have been temporary periods when it was 
 generally understood that Trinity's inability to respond favor- 
 ably to applications would cause temporary cessation or post- 
 ponement of them. 
 
 Q. Were any grants made by the vestry with a view to power 
 or influence 1 A. I should answer, in my opinion, most deci- 
 dedly no. 
 
 Q. What have you to say about the erection of Trinity chapel 
 and the leases of pews in it? A. Trinity chapel, the chief ob- 
 ject in building it was, first and principally, for the accommo- 
 dation of the parishioners and their families who had been a 
 long time in the parish, but who had removed too far from the 
 parish church and chapel to continue to worship therein, and 
 thus, by inducing their return, increase as a consequence the 
 number of their constituency. When the chapel was finished, 
 the vestry adopted such plans for disposing of the pews as they 
 thought best calculated to attain those objects. But, in as much 
 as some of the features of those plans > such as the disposing of 
 them by an auction, were of a somewhat novel character, they 
 determined to act cautiously and prudently in the first lettings 
 of those pews. The first day's biddings (as is known) were con- 
 fined to the then actual corporators of the parish, and to those 
 who had been pew owners at any time within the preceding ten 
 years. After which all such pews as were not then taken, were 
 on a subsequent day disposed of at auction, the competition 
 being general, to any one desirous of procuring a pew in the 
 chapel. Particular attention has been called to the fact that 
 the first leases given for pews in the new chapel were drawn so 
 as to expire just one or two days before the annua] election. If 
 they had been made to expire on the day after the election, the 
 lessees would not in either case have been entitled, by virtue of 
 
68 [Senate 
 
 ►•■ 
 
 those leases alone, to vote, for the reason that they would not 
 have been members of the congregation for the full term of one 
 year before the election. If such feature, or any other feature, 
 about those first leases be deemed, therefore, peculiar or un- 
 usual, it must be attributed to over carefulness on the part of 
 the vestry, and a strong desire not to admit improper persons as 
 corporators. The result of the lettings of the pews was. how- 
 ever , highly satisfactory and gratifying to the vestry, and they 
 thereupon, in due season and before the next election, ordered 
 the future leases of the pews to be made to terminate on 1st day 
 of May in each successive year, as in other chapels. Chapel 
 consecrated April 17, 1855, when first services were performed; 
 election held March 25, 1856. 
 
 Q. Is it true that the vestry was governed by the policy of 
 "accumulation,' 7 as is charged in the testimony of Mr. Bradish X 
 A. I answer by saying that I think the expenditure of tens o 
 thousands of dollars per annum beyond her income does not 
 show such a disposition. 
 
 By the Senate Committee : 
 
 Q. What is the lot at the corner ot Murray street and Broad- 
 way, ( No. 251 Broadway) worth? A. Of all the real estate of 
 Trinity Church, there is not one that I consider so valuable, as 
 that on the corner of Murray street and Broadway. I should 
 think it would sell for $75,000, or 100,000, if it was entirely 
 free from lease, or any incumbrances. 
 
 Q. Will you see what it is returned at, in this report of Tri- 
 nity Church, (showing witness report.)? A. It is stated here, 
 at $36,750. 
 
 Q. When you made the report, did you know of the sale to 
 James H. Noe? A. I recollect the sale of a Greenwich street 
 lot for $20,000, but do not remember the purchaser's name, nor 
 whether the sale was before, or alter the Vestry's report. 
 
 Q. Bid you know of the sale at the time it was made 1 A. 
 I did. If it was sold before the report, it was included through 
 inadvertence. 
 
No. 95.J 
 
 69 
 
 Q. Were you a vestryman at the time the report of Feb. 15, 
 1856 was made? A. Yes Sir. 
 
 Q. Did you not, with others, negotiate for the disposition of 
 property, on the corner of Chambers and Church streets, and 
 what valuation did you put upon it, for the Hudson River Rail- 
 road Company, and at what time was the bargain made 1 A. 
 $5000 per annum, which is 5 per cent on $100,000. 
 
 Q. How much do you make the lot worth, estimating it in 
 that manner? A. It would be worth $100,000, estimating it in 
 that manner. The church put no valuation on it, but only 
 talked about what it would rent for. 
 
 Q. Does not Trinity Church rent her lots in all cases, at five 
 per cent on what she estimates to be their value ? A. It is the 
 usual custom, where the leases are renewable, but where a lease 
 falls in, we do not feel ourselves bound by any such rule. 
 
 Q. Will you look, and see what those lots are returned at 1 
 (showing witness report.) A. They are returned at $29,500, 
 based on the assessor's valuation. 
 
 Adjourned to 4 P.M. on Friday. 
 
 Friday, February 20, 1857. 
 
 Present: — Senate committee and counsel as before. 
 
 Examination of Mr. Samuel JFl Skidmore, continued — Q. By 
 Mr. Spencer. During the three years Trinity incurred a debt of 
 over $100,000, was she not building Trinity Chapel'? A. She 
 was. Those expenditures I allude to were independent of the 
 building of the Chapel. 
 
 Q, Is the Annunciation a feeble church ? A. As to its pre- 
 sent circumstances and condition I am entirely ignorant. 
 
 Q. What sum has Trinity given her within a year or two 
 past ? A. The sum, as appears by the report, in the aggregate, 
 is $26,800. It appears by the report to have been given within 
 five years preceding the date of the report. We gave St. Luke's 
 Church, for the year preceding the date of the report, $2,100 
 
70 
 
 [Senate 
 
 which I think was larger than any preceding year. I suppose 
 we shall not give them less the present year. The Annuncia- 
 tion and St. Luke's Churches are reputed to be high churches. 
 
 Q. Do you find any such sums given to any low churches 
 during the same time. A. No sir. I see no such sums given to 
 either high or low churches. 
 
 Q. Did you ever know a corporator to look at the list of cor- 
 porators. A. I don't know that I ever saw one examining the 
 list. 
 
 Q. Do you think you know of all the expenditures of Trinity 
 Church, ecclesiastical or otherwise 1 A.I should think I did. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any such disbursements that were not 
 directly for charitable, religious or benevolent purposes ? A. I 
 think very probable there might have been disbursements for 
 other than those objects. 
 
 Q. What other object would they expend money for ? A. I 
 cannot call to mind the particulars of other disbursements. 
 
 Q. Is the estate of Trinity Church increasing in value. A. I 
 think it is worth more now than at any former period, and more 
 than when assessor's valuation was made. 
 
 Q Does the vestry make an annual report of the financial 
 condition of the corporation. A. It is the duty of the comp- 
 troller, as well as the custom for him to make such report to the 
 vestry. 
 
 Q. Is there a report made by the vestry to the corporators 1 
 A. There is not. 
 
 Q. Is the annual report of the comptroller printed or circu- 
 lated? A. It is not. 
 
 Q. What appropiiations within the three years preceding 13th 
 April, 1855, has Trinity Church made to institutions of charity, 
 benevolence and learning in the city of New- York 1 A. I read 
 from the report of the church : " Grants of burial plots in 
 Trinity cemetery to the Orphan Asylum a plot of C21 square 
 feet ; to the Society of Aged and Indigent Females a plot con- 
 
No. 95.] 
 
 71 
 
 taining 300 square feet ; to the Protestant Benefit Society a plot 
 containing 600 square feet ; to Christ's church a plot to be 
 selected ; to the Orphans Home a plot to be selected;" and as 
 this was the period during which we were building Trinity chapel, 
 I presume there were no others. 
 
 Question by Judge Parker : — How long were the vestry in 
 making out their report 1 A. Several months. 
 
 Q. If there was any omission to correct the report of the 
 church, in regard to a lot sold after the report was made out 
 and before its date, was it from design or inadvertence 1 A. 
 It was from inadvertence undoubtedly. 
 
 Q. Does the report of the vestry of Trinity Church state the 
 valuation of the real estate of the corporation, as founded upon 
 the estimates of the vestry, or upon the valuations of the city 
 assessor, made for the purposes of city taxation ? A. Not as her 
 own valuation, but as the valuation of the sworn city assessors ; 
 I would further say, that the vestry had no desire to depreciate 
 the value of their property by adopting the valuation of the city 
 assessors as the basis of their report, for they supposed that to be 
 near enough for all practical purposes, and if deemed below its 
 real or actual value any two or three gentlemen, familiar with 
 the value of city property, could easily have agreed upon some 
 additional percentage necessary to bring it up to their own 
 opinion of its fair, if not its exact and actual value ; and they 
 were equally anxious to avoid all exaggeration of the value of 
 their real estate, which would thereby indue ; large and more 
 numerous applications for aid, when they have so many beyond 
 their ability to grant. 
 
 Q. When the comptroller makes his annual report to vestry, 
 what is done with it 1 A. The comptroller makes out his annual 
 report according to custom, which is examined and certified to 
 by an auditing committee, appointed by the vestry for that pur- 
 pose. It is then read to a meeting of the vestry, and laid upon 
 the table, or ordered on file, subject to any further examination 
 in detail, by any member of the vestry. 
 
72 
 
 [Senatb 
 
 Q. How long has it been the practice to make these annual 
 reports 1 A. During the whole time of my being a member of 
 the vestry, and, as I suppose, always. 
 
 Q. What is the object in taking mortgages, where a grant is 
 made 1 A. These church mortgages are taken and held by 
 Trinity church, not for their own private benefit, but (and in 
 good faith) for the benefit of other churches. They never have 
 demanded, nor do they expect to demand, either the principal or 
 interest of those loans, except in occasional isolated cases > such 
 for instance, as the foreclosure of a prior mortgage, or to save 
 the church properties from being disposed of improperly, or for 
 other than church objects and purposes. The parties obtaining 
 these loans, (which they look upon virtually as gifts,) do not 
 object to giving such mortgages on their churches, but generally 
 view the requirement of them as a wise and conservative mea- 
 sure for perpetuating the original object and intention of the 
 grant. The character of these mortgages is so well and so gene- 
 rally understood, that an attempt to foreclose any one of them r 
 on the part of Trinity church, for the purpose of restoring the 
 amount again to their own coffers, would be regarded as little 
 short of absolute dishonesty. If the same objects aimed at in 
 these loans, could be equally well secured in some other way, I 
 confidently believe that no desire on the part of Trinity church 
 to keep alive a sense of obligation to her on the part ol the 
 recipients of her favors would, for one moment, stand in the 
 way of the change. For the foregoing reasons, I think that the 
 principal and interest of those mortgages, (amonting to $571,. 
 952,) ought not to be considered as part of the wealth of Trinity 
 church, nor be made to show a seeming intention, on her part, to 
 withhold from the Honorable the Senate, essential and import- 
 ant facts respecting her property. 
 
 Q. Has the church ever foreclosed any of these mortgages ? 
 A. None to my knowledge. 
 
 Q. Can you make any statement relative to the interest of 
 Trinity church in St. John's Park, and the reason it was omitted 
 in their report I A. I will state that Trinity church looked 
 
No. 95.] 73' 
 
 upon that park as so permanently appropriated for the purposes 
 of a park, that the sale of it, apparently, no more entered their 
 minds, than the sale of one of their burial grounds. The agita- 
 tion- of the subject of the sale was started by the other property 
 owners, after the report of the church was made. The statement 
 upon that subject in the supplemental report of the vestry is cor- 
 rect; the whole number of lots interested in the park,is sixty-four, 
 of which Trinity Church owns seven,being one-ninth of the whole. 
 I will further state it was supposed on part of some of the pro- 
 perty owners that they would be able to get from the United 
 States Government some six or seven hundred thousand dollars 
 for the property. I do not know whether they actually had an 
 offer for it or not, but even if sold at that price, the pro-rata 
 share of Trinity Church would be about seventy thousand dol- 
 lars. St. John's chapel and parsonage and Sunday school stand 
 on these seven lots, the rest is vacant ground. 
 
 Q. Have you been on the committee to examine the comptrol- 
 ler's report, and had you free access to all the books, papers 
 and accounts 1 A.I have been on the committee, and had free 
 access to all the books, papers and accounts. 
 
 Q. Have you ever heard any member of the vestry being de- 
 nied free access to the books ? A. Never knew or heard of any 
 such thing, except in the testimony annexed to the committee's 
 report. 
 
 Q. Have the standing committee power to sell a lot without 
 the consent of the vestry'? A. It is not their custom, and I 
 understand they have not the power. 
 
 Q. What means have the members of ever knowing the pro- 
 ceedings of the standing committee ? A. The standing commit- 
 tee keep full minutes of all their proceedings, and which are 
 read to the vestry at every vestry meeting. 
 
 Q. Is each report and recommendation by the standing com- 
 mittee then passed upon separately by the vestry 7 A. They 
 are. 
 
 Q. Have the vestry in any way endeavored to control the free 
 opinions and acts of the vestry and ministers who had received or 
 were seeking aid for their churches 1 A. Not to my knowledge. 
 
74 [S ENATE 
 
 Q. State the proceedings of the vestry for making the minis- 
 tration of the church more efficient in the lower part of the city, 
 and the dates at which they took place? A. May 8th, 1854, at 
 a vestry meeting resolutions were offered for the appointment of 
 Dr. Haight and Messrs. Hobart and Weston, as assistant minis- 
 ters; the resolutions were referred to a committee on the state 
 of the parish. March 5, 1855, resolutions were adopted that on 
 
 day, the assistant ministers should be appointed by ballot, 
 
 and that they be assigned to a particulrr congregation. March 
 26, 1855, the above named gentlemen were appointed assistant 
 ministers, and on the 11th of June, 1855, they were severally 
 assigned to their respective congregations. The resolutions of 
 the 8th of May, 1854, had reference to the appointment of assist- 
 tant ministers, and their assignment to their different churches. 
 The resolutions of 8th May had reference to the appointment 
 of the different churches. 
 
 Q. State what were the proceedings of the vestry and stand- 
 ing committee on the subject of the application of the Church of 
 St. Timothy, and what influenced their action? A. The Rev. 
 Mr. Howland made an application to the vestry of Trinity 
 Church of a noble and magnanimous character, which was 
 referred as is usual to the standing committee, though at a time 
 when the committee considered the financial condition of the 
 parish illy calculated to respond favorably to so large an 
 application. They were still anxious if possible not to be 
 obliged to reject it. The proposal on the part of Mr. How- 
 land, involved liabilities to the amount of twenty thousand dol- 
 lars. He proposed to appropriate dollar for dollar, or upwards, 
 for the same object. The committee were so desirous of doing 
 something, they invited Mr. Howland on one or two occasions to 
 meet with them in committee. After long and anxious consid- 
 eration on the subject, they felt compelled to report to the vestry 
 unfavorably to the application. The vestry did not adopt the 
 report, but sent it back for further consideration. Yet, after 
 farther consideration, and with the strong sympathies of every 
 member of the vestry in behalf of the application, the standing 
 committee again reported unanimously against it, for the reason 
 that the increased magnitude of their debt in their judgment 
 
No. 95.] 
 
 75 
 
 forbade it. Notwithstanding this report, the vestry ordered it 
 to lie on the table, where it is now. 
 
 Q. Were any applications made during the last year for the 
 establishment of two free churches in destitute parts of the city, 
 provided the applicants would furnish half the cost? A. None, 
 except the application to Mr. Rowland. 
 
 Q. How long a lease is there on the lot No. 251, Broadway, 
 and at what annual rent I A. An unexpired lease of about six- 
 teen years, and at an annual rent of twenty-six dollars and a 
 quarter. 
 
 Q. Was there any service in Trinity Chapel until its conse- 
 cration, and on what date was its consecration, and what day was 
 next election held 1 A. There w r as no service previous to the 
 consecration, which was on the 17th day of April, 1855, and the 
 next election was on Easter Tuesday, the 25th March, 1856. 
 
 Q. Wliat statement have you to make in regard to the valua- 
 tion of the property of the church, which would be correct upon 
 Ely's and Dodd's valuations of the real estate 3 A. There seems 
 to be a mistake in the principle adopted for arriving at the nett 
 total present value of the real estate, as stated on page twelve of 
 the Senate report. The Vestry's estimate, taking the valuations 
 of the assessors as a guide, irrespective of the leases and deduc- 
 tions, was $2,668/710. 
 
 Q. Then if the above valuation of $2,668,710, makes the 
 present value of the interest of the lessees to be $1,222,338, what 
 would the interest of the lessees be on Ely and Dodd's valuation 
 of $5,874,023 ? A. $2,690,443, or very nearly that amount. 
 
 The aggregate footing in Senate committee report is. $7,092,544 
 From which deduct on account of leases according to 
 
 above corrected estimate, $2,690,443 
 
 And the church debt of 648,913 
 
 3,339,356 
 
 Leaves, & $3,753,188 
 
[Senate 
 
 The nett total present value even on Messrs. Ely and Dodd's 
 
 valuation, should therefore be $3,753,188 
 
 Instead of (as stated in report of Senate committee) . 5,221,293 
 
 Making in this one item an error evidently of about $1,468,105 
 
 From the nett total present value as above corrected , 
 
 of $3,753,188 
 
 Deduct the church mortgages and interest, $571,952 
 
 And the amount set down for St. John's 
 
 park, 400,000 
 
 971,952 
 
 And a nett total present value would then remain of $2,781,236 
 As the nett amount resulting [from the adoption of 
 Messrs. Ely and Dodd's valuation. By adding 
 thereto a prospective pecuniary interest in St. 
 John's park, the sum of say $75,000 
 
 And it would make the aggregate amount, $2,856,236 
 
 This, be it remembered, is a valuation entirely irrespective of 
 the existing encumbrances by leases, which would greatly reduce 
 its present value to Trinity Church ; and be it also remembered 
 that nearly one-half of the entire real estate brings Trinity 
 Church an income of less than five hundred dollars per annum. 
 
 By Senate Committee : 
 
 Q. What valuation did the vestry put upon St. John's park ? 
 A They did not profess to put a valuation on that property, but 
 after showing the strongest disinclination to sell at all, and being 
 earnestly importuned and pressed to name some terms upon 
 which they would give their consent to sell, they finally agreed 
 to do so, when their share of the proceeds of the sale should be 
 $400,000. 
 
 Q. Have the standing committee power to lease lots without 
 the consent of the vestry 1 A. They have to lease, but not to 
 sell. The standing committee leases property without consult- 
 ing the vestry. 
 
No. 95.] 
 
 Q. Have not the vestry been urged by some of its members 
 to print the annual report 1 A. There was one very respectable 
 member of our vestry has been solicitous to have the report 
 printed for the use of the vestry, but a majority have been dis- 
 inclined to do so. 
 
 Rev. Edward G. Higbee, called by counsel for Trinity Church. 
 
 Q. What explanation do you desire to make in relation to 
 your former testimony before this committee % On the 3d of 
 Dec, 1856, 1 was called upon to give testimony before a com- 
 mittee of \he Senate of the State of New- York, in relation to 
 parish of Trinity Church in the city of New- York. The inter- 
 rogatories were few, and the answers necessarily short and 
 general, and I fear that without further explanation my testi- 
 mony will not be understood. I kept no memoranda of my in- 
 terview with the committee, but as well as I can remember, one 
 of the first proposed to me was as follows (substantially) : 
 
 " During the time that you have been connected with the 
 parish of Trinity Church, in your opinion has the design of the 
 original foundation of the same been fully carried out ? " A. 
 u My belief is, that owing to temporary and accidental circum- 
 stances, the influence of which has been increasing almost from 
 the time that I became a minister of the parish, the original 
 design of this charity has not been fully carried out." 
 
 This, in substance, was my answer. I was not requested to 
 state what the " temporary and accidental circumstances" were 
 to which I alluded. Such a statement, however, appears neces- 
 sary, to show the true meaning of my testimony. 
 
 I therefore beg permission to say, that I alluded to the general 
 and yearly increasing removal of the residences of the citizens 
 of New- York towards the more northern part of the island, and 
 to the effects of this upon the churches, of all denominations, 
 in the lower parts of the city. 
 
 The effect upon Trinity church, and its chapels, (more partic- 
 ularly upon Trinity church and St. Paul's chapel,) was, first, 
 to deprive them, gradually and surely, of their regular congre- 
 gations, and of course, of their congregational and parochial 
 
[Senate 
 
 spirit, responsibility and efficiency; and secondly, to diminish 
 and weaken, in a continually increasing ratio, the constituency 
 of the corporation ; thus destroying the equilibrium of the 
 parish, and undermining its foundations' as an institution of 
 public charity. 
 
 For a long time there seemed to be no remedy for this evil. 
 The vestry were restrained, (as I have always understood,) by 
 the terms of their charter, from acquiring real estate, and there- 
 fore, could not follow the members of their church to their new 
 residences, and supply them with places of worship. 
 
 At length, a means of removing the difficulty was afforded, by 
 a general act of the Legislature, passed, I believe, in 1850. 
 Under the provisions of this act, ground was purchased, upon 
 which Trinity chapel now stands. This chapel was opened in 
 1855, in the spring, and it has been, and is now filled, with a 
 large, stated, intelligent and charitable congregation; and there 
 can be no reasonable doubt, that the result of this decided 
 movement in a right direction, is a most salutary one to the 
 whole parish, and is full of promise for the future. 
 
 I believe that the clergy of Trinity Church are united, and 
 that the parishioners sympathise with them in the desire and the 
 resolution to make, so far as in them lies, this ancient parish an 
 instrument of good to the church, and to the community at 
 large, to the utmost extent of its resources. 
 
 Another question proposed by the committee, was in sub- 
 stance as follows : 
 
 " Have you ever seen a list of the constituents of Trinity 
 Parish ?" 
 
 A. (In substance,) " I have never seen such a list. Dr. Wain- 
 right and I made repeated efforts to procure one, without suc- 
 cess. Dr. Wainright, however, as he informed me, did obtain 
 it from the vestry after he was elected to the episcopate." 
 
 This answer is too vague and general. Had there been oppor- 
 tunity for more careful recollection when I was before the com- 
 mittee, my answer would have been as follows : 
 
No. 59.J 79 
 
 " For a long time Drs. Wainwright, Parks, and myself, assis- 
 tant ministers, had been filled with anxiety and apprehension on 
 account of the steady diminution of the constituency of the 
 parish. Wishing to keep ourselves informed of the real condi- 
 tion ot things we sought to procure a true list of the constituents. 
 We were reluctant to ask formally for the official list of the 
 parish, because suggestions had been made to us that we might 
 thereby incur the imputation of intending to take some active 
 part in the Easter elections. We therefore tried to make a list 
 for ourselves from such sources of information as were within 
 our reach. Failing in this Dr. W T ainwright and I, (Dr. Parks* 
 being absent on account of the illness, of which afterwards he 
 died.) resolved that we ought formally to request a copy of the 
 list kept in the vestry office, or by the rector. Dr. Wainwright, 
 in his and my behalf, did accordingly make such an application. 
 When he first made it I do not now remember, nor how often it 
 was repeated; but I know that, as he informed me, such a list 
 was furnished him sometime after his election to the episcopate. 
 
 The foregoing explanations are true. 
 
 EDW T ARD Y. HIGBEE. 
 
 New- York, January 5, 1857. 
 
 Rev. William H. De Lancy called and sworn; examination by 
 Senate Committee. 
 
 Q. Where is your residence and what is your office \ A. My 
 residence is in Geneva, Ontario county, Western New-York; and 
 my office is that of bishop of the diocese of Western New- York, 
 to which office I was consecrated in 1839. 
 
 Q. What part of the State of New-York does your diocese 
 comprehend? A. The western part, including Broome, Che- 
 nango, Madison, Oneida, Lewis, and Jefferson counties, with all 
 the counties west of them. 
 
 Q. Has Trinity Church, New- York, aided any of the churches 
 in your diocese 1 A. Yes, I learn from the publications of the 
 rector of Trinity Church that she has aided altogether, since 
 1807, in Western New York, about 77 churches, being 6 before 
 
80 
 
 [Senate 
 
 the year 1814, and 71 churches since that year. Some were 
 aided twice. Of those 71 aided since 1814, about 20 have been 
 aided since I became bishop. 
 
 Q. In what way has the aid of Trinity Church been extended 
 to those churches 1 A. In almost every case, except Trinity 
 church, Utica, as far as I know, by grants of money, in small 
 sums, for churches and parsonages, for which grants in some 
 cases Trinity Church has taken a mortgage on the church, and in 
 other cases she has not. 
 
 Q. Has Trinity Church ever foreclosed any of the mortgages 
 on churches, or ever required the annual interest on them to be 
 paid to her ? A. I have never heard or known of any such 
 case in Western New-York or elsewhere. I do not usually con- 
 secrate a new church edifice, until the vestry certify that its 
 debts are paid or reasonably provided for. A mortgage to 
 Trinity Church, on which neither principal nor interest are 
 demanded, I do not consider an obstacle to the consecration of 
 a new church, but as additional security against its alienation 
 from its holy objects. 
 
 A. Has any church in your diocese, to which Trinity has 
 made a grant of money without taking a mortgage on church 
 edifice, ever been lost to the congregation or diocese ? A. Yes; 
 a church on which Trinity Church took no mortgage for a grant 
 of $5u0, was sold for debt, and the congregation dispersed. A 
 mortgage to Trinity Church would have saved it, or at least 
 saved the $500, for the use of the diocese elsewhere. 
 
 Q. When Trinity Church has thus taken mortgages from 
 churches in your diocese for monies granted to them, what has 
 been the effect of this upon the interest and condition of the 
 churches thus aided 1 A. Favorable. 1 . By preventing church 
 edifices from being alienated from the holy objects for which 
 they were erected. 2. By encouraging the individual members 
 to sustain the church thus secured to its object. 3. By attract- 
 ing outside people to the church thus known to be secured to its 
 object without their being called in to help to pay its debt. 
 4. By being an obstacle as a first mortgage against further mort- 
 
No. 95 J 
 
 81 
 
 gages of the church for debt. 5. I cannot say that I have seen 
 any moral, spiritual, ecclesiastical, or pecuniary evils result from 
 such mortgages in my diocese. 
 
 Q. Has Trinity Church ever, to your knowledge or belief, 
 sought to exercise any influence over the course or opinions 
 either of the clergy or the parishes in your diocese 1 A. No. 
 
 Q. Has Trinity Church, to your knowledge or belief, ever 
 been governed by party considerations in making her grants to 
 churches in your diocese? A. No. 
 
 Q. Has Trinity Church made any grants for educational pur- 
 poses in your diocese 1 A. Yes, a most important and liberal one 
 to the value of $50,000, to Geneva college in 1851. The grant 
 was made when Geneva college was in a disastrous and critical 
 condition, occasioned by the State withdrawing unsuspectedly, 
 under the two year provision of the new Constitution of 1846, 
 in regard to appropriations, her annual grant of $6,000 to the 
 college, leaving nearly $3,000 unpaid, (and still unpaid) a debt 
 upon the college trustees, who were without means to pay the 
 professors, all of whom but the president sought other posts, 
 and the students diminished in number from eighty (the highest 
 number under the State grant) to thirty-seven. When the pros- 
 pect of private endowment to maintain new professors was dim 
 and gloomy, and the very continuance of the college dubious, in 
 this emergency Trinity Church was asked to endow the college, 
 which she did in 1851 by a grant of $50,000, the interest at six 
 per cent, to be paid annually until the principal is paid on the 
 termination of the Astor lease, as I understand, on the condition 
 that the college be made in its literary department a free college 
 forever, to all students that come to it, and that it take the name 
 Hobart Free College, by act of the Legislature. Since which 
 time the faculty have been sustained, and the students have in- 
 creased from thirty- seven to ninety-six, a larger number than it 
 ever had under the State grant. And $22,000 additional endow- 
 ment, viz : a professorship of $15,000, a fellowship of $5,000> 
 and two scholarships of $1,000 each, and several benefactions 
 have been received from private sources, not one of which endow- 
 
 [Senate, No. 95.] 6 
 
82 
 
 [Senate 
 
 merits, I am convinced, would have been made, without this 
 grant from Trinity Church. 
 
 (J. Do you think that the vestry of Trinity church has done 
 i ts utmost to make the capital ot the property of that corpora- 
 tion available for the founding, or support, or promotion of 
 religious, charitable, or educational institutions, or purposes 1 
 A. As I cannot name the wealthy church corporation, or indivi- 
 dual, in the city of New- York, or elsewhere, who I think does, 
 in these respects, act with the capital of the property up to full 
 obligations to God, and does the utmost with it; as the question 
 covers the proceedings of the vestry before I was born; as I am 
 not now, and never have been acquainted with the exact condi- 
 tion, or external arrangement of the property of Trinity church, 
 and therefore, am not qualified to give an opinion on such a 
 pumt, I can only say, that if the present rector and vestry, who 
 know about their property, declare that they have done, or are 
 doing to their utmost in these respects, I would rely upon their 
 statement, as that of honorable, high minded, faithful and con- 
 scientious men, in preference to my own views, which must be 
 founded on most imperfect knowledge, and in opposition to the 
 opinions and judgments (respecting the use of Trinity church 
 property) of disappointed applicants, eager expectant enthusi- 
 asts in experimental schemes of good, the heads of church 
 parties and local enemies, or any other individuals, but practi- 
 cally, unacquainted with the facts of the case, however pious, 
 worthy, zealous and highly esteemed I may regard them. 
 
 Q. What, in your judgment, would be the effect of the repeal 
 of the law of 1814 1 A. Disastrous to the church, both in New- 
 York city, and in the country. Disastrous to the church in New- 
 York city : 1 . By engendering, at once, a long and bitter 
 litigation before the courts, between Trinity church corporation 
 and the other churches in the city, as to the constitutionality 
 and legality of the repeal of the law, requiring, at once, a repeal 
 of the law of 1784, or a modification of it by another law like 
 that of 1814. 2. By dividing the churches outside of Trinity 
 church corporation into parties for and against Trinity church, 
 on all these points. 3. By splitting up every congregation into 
 
No. 95. | 
 
 83 
 
 such parties. 4. By making the election of vestry for Trinity 
 church an annual occasion of unholy excitement, collision and 
 contest, most injurious to the character, piety, prosperity and 
 usefulness of the church. 5. By throwing an unquenchable 
 firebrand among the clergy and laity in New- York. 6. By 
 raising, at once, such questions as these to distract the clergy 
 and parishes: If the rector of Trinity church, be the i: rector 
 of New-York and all its inhabitants," is he not rector over 
 all the churches under the charter 1 Are not all the othe r 
 rectors in New-York, merely his assistants'? Are not all 
 the churches in New- York, merely chapels of Trinity Church ? 
 Is not the law, authorizing separate parishes in the city, 
 unconstitutional ? Ought not the charters of other corpora- 
 tions to be annulled, as incompatible with the charter of 
 Trinity • which would then, comprise all the inhabitants of 
 the city ] The law as it stands, silences all such questions ; 
 repeal it, and in my judgment, with such a property at issue, 
 and in a city containing 2000 lawyers, many, of the highest 
 eminence, and keenest penetration, such like questions would 
 start up at once to produce clamor, confusion, and conflict, and 
 to draw away thousands of dollars from charitable, religious, 
 and educational institutions and purposes, to a most baneful 
 litigation. The repeal of the law, would be disastrous to the 
 whole church of the State, outside of the city. 1 . By raising the 
 question, as to the right of dispersing any of this property out 
 of the city, which is denied by some, but which, the present 
 corporation has admitted, and has temporally acted on. 2. By 
 leading almost necessarily, to the division of all the property 
 among the city churches. 3. By thus cutting off, all the feeble 
 country churches from the benefit of this favor. 4. By stopping 
 what has been a stream of most salutary and fertilizing benevo- 
 lence to religious, charitable, or educational institutions in the 
 rural districts. 5. By presenting the church in the city of New- 
 York, clergy and laity, in a most unattractive and deplorable atti- 
 tude, as quarrelsome, abusive and repulsive, estranged from each 
 other; pamphleteering and publishing in anger, and stirring the 
 whole press in New-York, and in the country, secular and re- 
 ligious, iuto sharp, bitter, and ceaseless controversy, fatal to the 
 
84 
 
 [Senate 
 
 reputation of the church for stability, quietness, and peace, and 
 not promotive of the sanctification and salvation of men, but 
 subversive of sound law and morals. 
 
 Question by Mr. Spencer. Is the opinion expressed in the 
 answer you have given, your opinion of churchmen generally? 
 A. My opinion is founded upon my knowledge and observation 
 of human nature generally, and of religious controversies and 
 church contentions, generally. 
 
 Q. Have you looked over the names of the persons who testi- 
 fied before the committee in the city of New- York ? A. Yes sir. 
 
 Q. Are not the laymen who testified, among the most liberal 
 t) country churches'? A. I have never, that I recollect, made 
 personal applications to any of them, but some of them bear 
 a high reputation for liberality, with other churchmen in New- 
 York, and I have myself, a high personal regard for them. I 
 cannot answer as to their liberality to country churches. 
 
 Saturday, February 21. 
 
 Present : Senate Committee and Counsel as before. 
 
 William Moore, called and sworn. Examination by counsel 
 for Trinity Church : — Q. Where do you reside? A. I reside in 
 Phillipstown, Putnam county, lately of the firm of De Rhau and 
 Moore, of the city of New-York. 
 
 Q. Have you been a vestryman of Trinity Church, and for 
 what time ? A. I was elected a vestryman in 1839, and contin- 
 ued to be so until last autumn, when I resigned in consequence 
 of my removal from the city. 
 
 Q. Were you a member of the standing committee ? A. I was 
 for a great many years r but don't remember how long. I con- 
 tinued in the standing committee up to the period of my resig- 
 nation. 
 
 Q. Will you tell me whether the list of corporators was open 
 to the inspection of any corporator? A. I believe it to be so; 
 never heard of any difficulty on the subject, until an application 
 
No. 95.J 85 
 
 was made by Dr. Wainwright for a copy of the list. The per- 
 sons in the office to whom the application was made were doubt- 
 ful of the propriety of giving copies of papers, and the request 
 was referred to the vestry, which immediately granted the 
 request; I think unanimously. 
 
 Q. Was there any rule or order of the vestry preventing 
 access to the list of corporators'? A. Not to my knowledge or 
 belief. 
 
 Q. Were the grants made by the vestry made in a partizan 
 spirit, or with reference to " high " church or " low " church 
 opinions 1 A. I always endeavored to divest my mind as far as 
 possible of every bias, in consulting on applications made to the 
 vestry, and I believe my colleagues were equally conscientious. 
 
 Q. Is there any foundation for the charge that there was par- 
 tiality in making appropriations to other churches ? A. My 
 answer to the last question will apply also in a great measure 
 to this. In so large a body of men as twenty-three, the number 
 of vestry of Trinity, it is impossible that personal predilections 
 may not sometimes influence individuals in their votes on appli- 
 cations. I believe it would not be in human nature to be other- 
 wise. 
 
 Q. Was each application discussed and decided upon its merits 
 and the ability of the church, without reference to "high" 
 church or "low" church opinions 1 Q. Most certainly. 
 
 Q. Is there any ground for the charge that the stipends have 
 been reduced, or have they merely been transferred from the 
 wealthier to the more feeble churches ? A. My impression is 
 that the aggregate amount of the stipends is as large now as at 
 any time that I was in the vestry. The stipends have been 
 reduced and sometimes entirely taken away from richer congre- 
 gations and given to poorer. 
 
 Q. Do you think Trinity Church has done its utmost to make 
 the capital of the property of that corporation available for the 
 founding, support or promotion of religious, charitable, or edu- 
 cational institutions or purposes ? A. We have always endea- 
 
86 [Senate 
 
 vored so to do, and as far as the revenues of the church went, I 
 think we succeeded. 
 
 Q. Is it true that the aid extended to feeble churches was 
 done reluctantly or offensively, or with a view to acquire any 
 power or influence over the congregations or ministers of the 
 churches aided ? A. No. To the first clause I would say, on 
 the contrary, that it always gave us great pleasure when we 
 could, to respond favorably to any of the numerous applications 
 before us. 
 
 Q. Have you considered the mortgages taken for grants to 
 churches as available means ? No. 
 
 Q. Were they taken with a view to the benefit of Trinity 
 Church, or with a view to the protection of the church thus 
 mortgaged 1 A. They were taken with a view to prevent that 
 property being, lost to the church at large. In case of a foreclo- 
 sure of a Drevious mortgage or some embarrassment to the church 
 that this money advanced by Trinity should return to that 
 church to be distributed again, or returned to the same church. 
 I never knew of any case of a foreclosure of a mortgage while 
 I was in the vestry, nor do I believe there ever was one. 
 
 Q. Have you been one of the committee to examine accounts? 
 A. Yes, for several successive years I was chairman of said 
 committee; and for many years it was the practice of the comp- 
 troller to submit his bank check-book and monthly statement of 
 accounts to the standing committee. 
 
 Q. Say whether there was or not free access to all the books, 
 accounts, papers, &c.,.of the office \ A. I never had occasion to 
 ask for any book, account, or paper, which was not treely open 
 to me, nor do I believe there was any book or account or paper 
 the examination of which would have been refused. 
 
 Q. Will you explain the case of St. Peter's church, referred 
 to in the testimony of Rev. Mr. Beach in pp. 119 and 120 of 
 report of committee 1 A. St. Peter's church was aided by 
 Trinity Chuich to the amount of §25,000. It was our bond for 
 that amouni. There was a mortgage given by St. Peter's to- 
 
No. 95.1 
 
 87 
 
 Trinity Church on the church property, to secure the repayment 
 of this, with the bond of three of the congregation as collateral 
 security. Subsequently St. Peter's church borrowed from Mr. 
 Lenox $22,000, for which they gave him the bond of the same 
 parties, and a second mortgage on the church. Trinity Church 
 released those who had signed as security to them either at that 
 time or subsequently, and the mortgage to Trinity Church then 
 became an ordinary church mortgage, on which payment was 
 not expected. Mr. Lenox having only a second mortgage, lie- 
 probably became uneasy as to his security, on account of the 
 accumulation of interest on the prior church mortgage, and, 
 upon an application of St. Peter's church to the vestry, they 
 consented to give Mr. Lenox's mortgage of $22,000 a priority to 
 the extent of the capital, and one year's interest on it over nil 
 the interest due or to grow due on our church mortgage. That 
 arrangement was made in July, 1844. Subsequently, about 18 
 months after, the vestry of St. Peter's applied to us to give Mr. 
 Lenox's mortgage a priority over our mortgage, or to discharge 
 our mortgage. This application was, after mature deliberation 
 in the standing committee and vestry, declined, on the ground 
 of the general policy of the church in taking these mortgages 
 as security for the benefit of the church. 
 
 By the committee : 
 
 Q. When you took your mortgage on St. Peter's was it not on 
 leased ground and not on ground in fee ? A. My impression is, 
 and I think that I am right, that our mortgage was upon the 
 church edifice and the lots upon which it stood, which were in 
 fee. I think the leased lots to which Mr. Beach referred in his 
 testimony, were not the lots included in our mortgage. 
 
 Q. Was not your mortgage made to extend over seven other 
 lots previously held under lease? A. I don't recollect. 
 
 Q. If it was so made, was not your security increased by this 
 arrangement? A. Undoubtedly it was. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any landed endowments made to otner 
 churches since 1814, by Trinity Church? A. I du not. 
 
$8 [Senate 
 
 Q. Are the churches of the Good Shepherd and St. John the 
 Baptist, feeble churches ? A. They are ; the annual allowance, 
 I see by the report, is $200 each. The church of St. John the 
 Baptist has been otherwise largely aided lately by Trinity Church. 
 
 Q. Is Grace church, Brooklyn, a feeble church ? A. I should 
 hardly say they were now. 
 
 Q. Is St. Luke's church, New-York a feeble church? A. It 
 is, it could not be sustained but for the aid of Trinity. 
 
 Q. What is the annual allowance to Grace church, Brooklyn ? 
 A. The church report says it is $1,000. The explanation is, 
 that when Grace church was built we granted them an aid to 
 build the church of $15,000, payable annually in sums of $1,000; 
 and this is not yet wholly paid. The $1,000 annually reported 
 is in payment of it. 
 
 4 
 
 Q Is the church of the Good Shepherd or St. John the Bap- 
 tist more feeble churches than St. Luke's? A. It is almost 
 impossible for me to say as to the comparative feebleness with- 
 out the statements of the churches, upon which we pass upon 
 their applications. St. Luke's church is upon the property of 
 Trinity Church, and in the immediate neighborhood of our ten- 
 ants. Trinity has set aside ground near there for the purpose of 
 building a chapel, when we can afford it ; until we can do so we 
 have felt ourselves obliged to sustain St. Luke's church as the 
 church for that district. 
 
 Q. Is the church of the Good Shepherd a more feeble church 
 than St. Luke's ? A. I do not know. 
 
 Q. What do you pay annually to St. Luke's, according to the 
 report of Trinity church? A. $2,200. I presume there is some 
 explanation that might be given in this case also. 
 
 Q. Do you understand there is any legal obstacle to the col- 
 lection of church mortgages, if the church is so disposed ? A. 
 I believe there is no legal obstacle; but, if we should attempt 
 to foreclose one, it would create such a clamor that we would 
 never hear the last of it. 
 
No. 95.J 
 
 89 
 
 Q. Were you in the vestry with Mr. Wolf and Mr. Cyrus 
 Curtiss? A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Do the vestry of Trinity church consider themselves 
 acting for the Episcopalians, generally, in New-York, or acting 
 as such for Trinity church parish 1 A. For Trinity church 
 parish. 
 
 Q. These grants that you refer to, were they made as dona- 
 tions of the property of Trinity, or as property held in trust for 
 the benefit of all the churches'? A. They were made as the 
 property of Trinity church. 
 
 Q Do you think the income of Trinity church was greater in 
 1810 or 1812 than it is now 1 A. We were much richer then in 
 lands, but I don't know about our income. 
 
 Q. W T hile in the vestry, did you know of all expenditures, 
 ecclesiastical or otherwise 1 A. There were no expenses except 
 such as were authorised by the vestry, and I had the same oppor- 
 tunity of knowing them as others. 
 
 Q. Have there been any expenses, to your knowledge, for 
 other than charitable, religious and benevolent purposes 1 A. 
 None others than such as were necessary in the case of so large 
 a property. 
 
 Examination by counsel for Trinity Church. — Gulian C. Ver- 
 planckj called and sworn : 
 
 Q. Are you a member of the Vestry of Trinity Church, and 
 how long have you been? A. I am a member of the Vestry, 
 and have been, since 1814, whether elected at the annual elec- 
 tion of 1844, or to fill a vacancy, I do not recollect ; about 12 
 years. 
 
 Q. How long have you been a member of Trinity Church ? 
 A. I was a corporator and pew-holder as early as 1811, but have 
 not been, continuously, since that time. 
 
 Q. Did members of other congregations vote at the vestry 
 elections of Trinity Church, prior to 1814 1 A. I think not, for 
 the reason which I will state. At the first election at which I 
 
90 
 
 [Senate 
 
 voted, which was in 1812, there was an excitement growing out 
 of a parish question, the contest between two eminent clergy- 
 men, Dr. Hobart and Mr. Jones, which brought out the full vote, 
 or nearly so, of the electors entitled to vote for wardens and 
 vestry, there being two tickets for the respective parties. I 
 had strong feelings for one of these, and voted for one of the 
 tickets. I confidently believe, that no votes, other than those 
 of pew-holders or communicants of Trinity Church and her 
 chapel, were received, and, that two or three others only, who 
 were pew-holders or communicants in other churches, were ten- 
 dered and refused. This general recollection of my own, has 
 been recalled and confirmed, so as to give me great confidence 
 in it, by the inspection of nearly contemporary documents, sta- 
 ting that fact. 
 
 Q. Has any suit ever been brought, or proceeding instituted, 
 to establish the right of a member of any other church, to vote 
 at the vestry elections of Trinity Church % A. I have never 
 heard of any such suit or proceeding, and I think there can 
 have been none, because from my after connection with the 
 church, as a vestryman and an occasional inspector of annual 
 elections, I think I must have heard of such suit or proceeding, 
 if any such had taken place. 
 
 Q. Has any member of any other church, not a pew-holder 
 or communicant in Trinity Church, voted at the vestry elec- 
 tions of Trinity Church, since 1814? A. I believe never, unless 
 under some mistake. I have heard of a vote being offered, and 
 rejected on that ground ; I know it from the papers of the day. 
 
 Q. Has the act of 1814 been acquiesced in, by other churches 
 in the city of New-York? A. I think so, practically, as it so 
 rarely happened, that a vote was ever tendered on any ground, 
 but that of being a corporator of Trinity, or a communicant or 
 pew-holder. I recollect but one instance, there may have been 
 a second, allowing for some absence from the city and country. 
 
 Q. Have you ever been a member of the standing committee 1 
 A. Never. 
 
 Q. Have you had free access to the books, papers and accounts 
 of the office ? A. Perfectly so. Whenever I desired a book or 
 
No. 95.] 
 
 91 
 
 paper I was shown it, and I frequently had and used opportuni- 
 ties of examining important books without asking the officers, 
 from the publicity with which the minutes and other papers 
 were kept in the office. 
 
 Q. What induced you in making such examinations ? A. 
 Sometimes general curiosity and a wish to know and be quali- 
 fied to act upon the questions which came before us. I have, 
 at times, also examined more particularly, and even had state- 
 ments made for the use of the vestry, on my resolution, for the 
 purpose of knowing the true financial state of the corporation of 
 which so many vague notions were entertained. 
 
 Q. Were you chairman of the Trinity chapel building com- 
 mittee ? A.I was chairman of a committee of inquiry into the 
 matter of location, cost of construction, and again, chairman of 
 building committee, one of which was for the plan most re- 
 sembling the one adopted; it was a plan, the estimated cost of 
 which was about §80,000. This did not include the price of 
 land, and I do not recollect whether it included the organ. The 
 actual cost of the chapel is more than $200,000, exclusive of 
 land. I am not as precise as I should be, because there are 
 certain expenses of a recent building of a gallery, which I have 
 not seen and cannot now give. 
 
 Q. What was the cause of the excess of the cost of that 
 chapel above the estimates ? A. The chapel was not built by 
 contract, except for particular objects, such as the delivery of 
 stone, but was built under the direction of an architect by clay's 
 work. One cause, forming a considerable portion of the extra 
 expense, was delay in building from weather and non-delivery 
 of material, &c, during which time there was a great and rapid 
 rise in labor and material. Another and also large increase 
 arose from causes familiar to all who have had experience in 
 constructing public or private buildings, by which persons hav- 
 ing the charge of buildings have attempted to enlarge and vary 
 their plans. Having had some personal experience on public 
 works as a committee-man, from the capitol at Washington 
 down, as well as on private works, I find it to be very common. 
 A third cause is an error in estimate in two or three expensive 
 
[Senate 
 
 items ; the cost of foreign stone for the lining of the chapel, 
 which much exceeded our estimate. I was very much vexed at 
 the result, and regretted the excess. 
 
 Q. What have you to say with regard to the appropriations 
 made to St. Luke's church? A. St. Luke's church was consid- 
 ered, by myself and other members of the vestry, in a double 
 relation. First, as it stood to us, in the relation of a great land 
 holder, to provide for our own tenants, and improve our own 
 property, amongst which St. Luke's stood. Secondly, as a con- 
 siderable, and poor congregation. I knew the character of the 
 congregation chiefly from an intimate friend, who has olten 
 spoken of Linsley as the only, or almost the only person of 
 means, who could, or did do anything for the pecuniary support 
 of the church. We also looked to keeping the congregation 
 together, with the view of transferring it, in some form or other, 
 to the location on Hudson-street burial ground, reserved for that 
 purpose. I have, on those grounds, voted cheerfully, and 
 expressed my approbation of all such temporary allowances as 
 were thought necessary to keep up the church. The precise 
 amount recommended I have had nothing to do with, leaving it 
 to the judgment of the committee. 
 
 Q. What do you say as to the alleged control of the standing 
 committee'? A. On some subjects, it is necessarily great— as to 
 the valuation of property, and the terms on which property 
 should be sold — they being familiar, from long and daily expe- 
 rience with the value of our property in detail. On other 
 points, such as allowances or gifts to churches, the vestry form 
 their own judgment, and frequently refer matters back to them 
 for reconsideration; sometimes, and in important matters, reject- 
 ing their report, and making, or refusing grants, in opposition 
 to their recommendation. A case in point has just been referred 
 to us for examination. It is that of the church known as St. 
 John the Baptist, a donation to which, the standing committee 
 had reported against, and which, after full consideration and 
 debate, was granted, nearly to the amount asked. 
 
No. 95.] 93 
 
 Q. State whether, in your judgment, the funds of Trinity 
 Church have been judiciously applied 1 A.I believe they have 
 been always applied with an honest intention. With great res- 
 pect for the memories of our predecessors in office, I think now, 
 and have before very often expressed the opinion, that the early 
 policy of Trinity Church was erroneous in making large endow- 
 ments for churches which became filled with wealthy and fash- 
 ionable people, and did not provide for the wants of the body of 
 the Episcopalians of the city of New-York. I think the present 
 policy, founded on experience, is far wiser; by the present 
 policy I mean aid to poorer congregations in New- York and 
 elsewhere, in the form ol stipends or money grants, and espe- 
 cially in providing for the religious and other education of the 
 poor in our own churches. I will also add the accommodation 
 of many others, who cannot literally be called poor; young 
 clerks, for instance, who could not provide themselves with 
 hired pews. 
 
 Q. Is it true that the grants of Trinity Church have been 
 made in a partial or partizan spirit, as regards a higt n church 
 or " low " church views ? A. I have never observed any 
 evidence of it, and have never felt it myself in any vote, I can 
 say with a clear conscience. 
 
 Q. What have you to say on the subject of free churches? 
 A. I have taken great interest in them; was among the foun- 
 ders of the City Mission, a donor and occasionally a solicitor of 
 donations. I have been Vice President of the City Mission, and 
 understand I now am. I have been disappointed in the results 
 of purely free churches, which I fear can hardly get along with- 
 out an endowment. I think the best and largest example of a 
 practical without a nominal free church, is the parish church of 
 Trinity. In this there are a limited number of pew-holders 
 mixed with a much larger bodv, forming a large congregation, 
 who need free accommodations. It is practically a free church, 
 because with congregations of from five hundred to fifteen hun- 
 dred, I perceived just before I left town, from an accidental 
 inspection of the list of pews, that the actual receipts from the 
 pews of Trinity, for the year ending n May, 1S56, was $157. 
 
94 
 
 I Senate 
 
 At St. Paul's the sum collected was $280, for the same period. 
 I will add that my personal knjwledge is of Trinity, where I 
 attend with considerable regularity about half the year. The 
 operation of St. Paul's resembles that of Trinity. 
 
 Q. What have you to say as to the value of property of Trinity 
 church, and the mode of valuation in its report? A. I had no 
 hand in making out the report made to the Senate of the value 
 of their property, but I think that no other mode of estimation 
 than that of the sworn assessors could have been made and 
 agreed upon. This arises, in my judgment, from the church 
 interest being a reversionary property, falling in at different pe- 
 riods, with comparatively a small income. As to the most valu- 
 able and saleable property in the lower part of the city, which 
 has recently risen, even since the making of the report, the high 
 prices chiefly for commercial purposes, my own experience and 
 observation convince me that it is impossible to calculate with 
 any reasonable ground of reliance as to its reversionary value 
 for six, eight and ten years, and longer periods ahead. I speak 
 both from observation and experience on this subject. I have 
 been a member of monied institutions, which lend on mortgage, 
 in the city of New-York; such as the Life and Trust Company. 
 I have observed the great fluctuations and fall of value in parts 
 of the city, such as Pearl-street, Hanover Square. I have ex- 
 amined many bonds and mortgages of this character while in. 
 quiring into the value of property. I have myself had the 
 management and control of property in Stone-street, Pins-street, 
 &c, which in 1835-36, was of great value, but has now fallen 
 one-half, or nearly one-half its value at that time, owing to the 
 transition of certain branches of commercial business from that 
 locality to Broadway, and the streets adjoining it. I could not, 
 therefore, myself, as the same occurrence may take place, esti- 
 mate a high reversionary value ten or fifteen years hence, from 
 present prices. The Astor lease, forming a large portion of the 
 property of the chuch, falling in in ten years, is a mere rever- 
 sionary property, producing, at present, only $269 per annum. 
 Such property, when offered in large amounts at a time, would 
 not, probably, command the bids or offers of any but capitalists 
 
No. 95.J 
 
 95 
 
 expecting to purchase at a low rate, and except under very favo- 
 rable circumstances, would hardly bring its reversionary value, 
 calculated on the assessed value, and perhaps not so much. I 
 form that judgment with the full knowledge that where the pro- 
 perty is not encumbered with a lease, it might sell for more than 
 the assessed value. For these reasons, I think the assessed value 
 the only one that the church could properly give, or the vestry 
 have probably agreed upon. 
 
 7 o'clock, P. M. 
 
 Gulian C. Verplanck's testimony continued. 
 
 Q. Will you state what appropriations have been made by 
 Trinity Church to institutions of charity in addition to those that 
 have been already named'? A. I may possibly not know all 
 that have been named, but I understand no mention has been 
 made of the annual appropriation to the church of the Deaf 
 Mutes, which consists of the whole annual rent of the church 
 used, and also a stipend, I believe, of $300 or more. I think the 
 rent is $500. Another stipend is a charity rather than a church 
 donation, to a minister, the Rev. Mr. Cook, the German mission- 
 ary at Ward's island and in the city among German emigrants, 
 I think the allowance is $300. I suppose I may add, as there 
 has been an allusion to it in a previous question, that he is a " low " 
 churchman; and I never have known of any objection being made 
 to the motion I make every year for the appropriation. A similar 
 annual donation, which I mention as falling within my own 
 knowledge as emigrant commissioner, is that of Rev. Mr.Winslow, 
 Protestant chaplain for the Quarantine hospital, given for other 
 services to emigrants landing at Castle Garden, in relation to 
 their concerns both temporal and spiritual. St. Luke's hospital 
 receives substantially from Trinity Church the grounds on which 
 the hospital is built, now of great value, which took effect within 
 a year or two. It was in this way : Trinity Church had some 
 years ago granted to the corporation of the city, apiece or square 
 of ground to be used as a market, and on that condition, at the 
 foot of Duane-street. A hospital and church for British emigrants 
 called the church and hospital of St. George the Martyr, had 
 
96 
 
 | Senate 
 
 been projected and in part carried into effect ; expecting to collect 
 sufficient funds here and in England, they wanted a piece of 
 ground, spacious and convenient enough for a hospital building, 
 they applied to Trinity for a grant for this purpose. Trinity had 
 no lands suitable for it, and it was doubted whether they had 
 present means to enable them to buy ; about the same time, how- 
 ever the market at the foot of Duane-street having been given up, 
 the question was presented whether we had not the right to re- 
 enter and claim our property at the foot of Duane-street. The 
 vestry were advised that they could do so, and I suppose cor- 
 rectly, but some friends of the proposed hospital suggested that 
 the unpleasantness of a suit against the corporation would be 
 avoided, and a great good obtained by negociation, if the cor- 
 poration would grant a certain suitable location to that hospital, 
 high up on the Fifth-avenue, the vestry releasing to the city 
 corporation their rights in the Duane-street lot, which the city 
 authorities were desirous of selling for a large amount to the 
 Erie railroad. This was carried into effect, the vestry relin- 
 quishing, for that purpose, their right to a property of great 
 value, worth perhaps $40,000. The institution of St. George 
 the Martyr, failing for some reason, St. Luke's was substituted 
 in its place, and the property was transferred to St. Luke's hos- 
 pital, Trinity church formally joining therein. I consider that 
 the property was therefore obtained by St. Luke's hospital by 
 means of a grant from Trinity Church; the title was obtained 
 from the corporation of New- York, the real consideration 
 thereof being the land released by Trinity Church, and sold for 
 a large sum to the Erie railroad. Our last assent to the trans- 
 fer to St. Luke's was given within a few years past. 
 
 Q. State whether there is any order of the vestry prohibiting 
 free access to the list of corporators'? A. There is no order to 
 that effect; the superior officers have never refused to my know- 
 ledge any one. I cannot say what the clerks may have done. 
 The books lie in places, open all day at least, and the one con- 
 taining the pew-holder corporators is in the outer office, where 
 pew rents are collected, and frequently examined by any one I 
 think who has the curiosity. The book containing the list of 
 
No. 95.] 
 
 97 
 
 communicant corporators is kept in an inner office on an open 
 desk; I never knew the examination of it refused. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any other of the old Episcopal church 
 charters in this State, granted in the same terms as that of Trinity 
 church? A. The old form of holding church property before 
 the revolution, was the rector, wardens, and inhabitants of the 
 town, or city in which it was, in communion of the church of 
 England. Several of these were altered to conform to the new 
 state of things after the revolution, retaining their own name, 
 except modified as to the church of England. Trinity church 
 was, by a special act; St. Peter's, Albany, was so modified; the 
 church with which I have been long connected, in Fishkill, 
 Dutchess county, holds its burial ground and buildings under a 
 title in the same form. It reincorporated itself under a general 
 act, passed in 1797, and its corporate title is, u the rector, war- 
 dens and inhabitants of Fishki 1, in communion of the Protestant 
 Episcopal church." There are two other Episcopal churches, 
 which have been established for more than twenty years, in the 
 same township, but they have never claimed, either the property 
 or the rignt to vote. 
 
 By the committee. — Q. If the lots to St. Luke's hospital were 
 given, or considered by the church their property to give, why 
 were they omitted in their report made in 1856 ? A. I presume 
 for the reasons already stated, that they were not directly given, 
 but substantially so, and therefore, requiring a long explanation, 
 and deeming it impossible to state it briefly in an account or 
 abstract. 
 
 Q. Did not the city corporation insist that Trinity had no 
 right to those Duane-street lots 1 A. I do not know that they 
 ever insisted ; but we were legally advised that our right of re- 
 entry was perfect; and those who represented the corporation 
 were willing to make the arrangement I have mentioned, and to 
 receive our formal release. 
 
 Q. Did the city corporation dispute your right to the lots ? 
 A. It may have been verbally denied by counsel or officers, but 
 
 [Senate, No. 95.] 
 
 7 
 
98 [Senath 
 
 they were sufficiently satisfied of our right to give a valuable 
 property for the release of our right, as we regarded. 
 
 Q. Did you ever look at the book of corporators kept in the 
 inner office ? A. Yes I have looked at it in order to see if per- 
 sons were not entitled to be entered as corporators who were 
 omitted through their own negligence or indifference, and I 
 believe there were many such. 
 
 Q. Did you ever look at the cash book or book of original 
 entries t A. I have not, never having had occasion to do so, 
 and never having audited any accounts except those of the 
 chapel building. 
 
 i 
 
 Q. Did you, as a member of the vestry, know and approve of 
 he form of the lease of pews in Trinity chapel, at its opening 1 
 
 A. I did know of it, and did not approve of it, because I 
 considered it a measure cf over prudence, calculated to expose 
 us to misrepresentation and perhaps to give offence. The motive 
 of those, however, who carried it through, was that of precau- 
 tionary prudence against the intrusion of a body of pew-holders 
 who had no sympathies with us or any other church. It was 
 recommended by a committee and approved by a majority of the 
 vestry. It was repealed betore it could have any practical 
 effect. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any churches set-off from Trinity Church 
 since 1814 I A. None have been. 
 
 Q. Do you find any difficulty in getting at the value of your 
 property when you sell or lease ? A. We are happily in a situ- 
 ation not to be obliged to sell or lease until we get offers, and it 
 is then a subject of negotiation with our officers or committees, 
 of which I am not one. 
 
 Q. Is there any difficulty in getting at the fair value of your 
 property, when it is in a condition to sell, or to lease? A 
 When the lease has expired, there is not. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any appropriations by Trinity Church, 
 for other than charitable, religious, or educational purposes ? 
 
No. 95.] 
 
 99 
 
 A. In the management of so large a property, there may be 
 many miscellaneous purposes which I cannot mention in detail, 
 for instance j patriotic purposes, of which I mention three in- 
 stances, involving some expense, not discreditable to the church. 
 In Trinity churchyard, were interred the remains of the late 
 Gallant Capt. Lawrence, whose memory is perpetuatad by his 
 last words "don't give up the Ship." A monument has been 
 erected to his memory, at public expense, badly built, though 
 well meant, and for 40 years it had fallen into decay. It was 
 rebuilt at the expense of the church, in suitable and permanent 
 style, retaining its former inscription. A similar instance within 
 my memory, was the restoring and repairing of the monument, 
 covering the remains of Alexander Hamilton. A third instance, 
 is the monument now erecting, on the remains of revolutionary 
 soldiers, buried in the western part of Trinity churchyard. 
 The monument of Gen. Montgomery in front of St. Paul's, and 
 in the church, has been repaired and improved. I presume 
 that the erecting of a monument, creditable as a work of art, 
 to the late Bishop Hobart, can hardly be considered as coming 
 within the term, charitable, or religious. There are others in 
 the management of the real estate, which any other large land- 
 holder would pay. 
 
 By the Counsel for Trinity Church : 
 
 Q. Do you know of any improper appropriation of the funds 
 of the Church ] A. I know of none for improper purposes. 
 
 Q. Have any churches offered to be set off from Trinity, since 
 1814] A. None. 
 
 The Committee, by request, put the following question : 
 
 Q. Do you know or have you been informed, whether Trinity 
 Church has recently had any person employed as counsel or 
 otherwise, belonging or attached to the judicial, executive or 
 legislative department of the State government] A. I do not 
 know of any, and I add that from my position on committees of 
 a legal and executive character other than the financial and 
 standing committee, I must have known it any such person had 
 been employed now or for some years past ; and I therefore say, 
 
100 
 
 [Senate 
 
 that the church has employed no person now in the judicial, ex- 
 ecutive or legislative department. I was recently asked, whether 
 a certain person coming within that description had been re- 
 tained, and I at once answered, " No." Except those who now 
 appear before you professionally on this examination, there is no 
 person employed in this matter except Mr. De Zeng,who openly 
 appears as our agent. 
 
 Adjourned to 10 A. M., Monday. 
 
 Monday, February 23, 1857. 
 Present : Senate committee. Messrs. Spencer, Noxon and 
 Ramsey, for Trinity Church ; Judge Parker and 0. Meads, Esq., 
 Counsel. 
 
 Gen. John A. Dix, called and sworn. Examined by counsel 
 for Trinity Church : — Q. Will you state generally the facts 
 within your knowledge in regard to the charges made against 
 the vestry of Trinity Church ? A. About ten days ago I was 
 subpoenaed to attend the committee as a witness ; being occu- 
 pied with important business, and fearing I should be unable to 
 attend before the labors of the committee were closed, I prepar- 
 ed a communication addressed to the chairman of the committee? 
 and sent it by Mr. Livingston, last week. The session of the 
 committee having been extended beyond my expectations at that 
 time, I thought it proper to appear before them in person. I 
 have this communication with me, and if the committee will 
 permit me to read it, I think it will save them a good deal of 
 time in preparing questions, and myself a good deal of incon- 
 venience in writing out answers. 
 
 The committee assented to the reading of the communication 
 in answer to the foregoing question, which is as follows : 
 
 I have just seen and read the report made to the Senate on the 
 29th ult., by the committee of which you are chairman, together 
 with the testimony appended thereto; and as there are imputa- 
 tions therein derogatory to the character of the vestry of Trinity 
 church, of whom I am one, both as regards their fairness and 
 
No. 82. | 
 
 101 
 
 their discreetness in the execution of their trust, I ask leave to 
 submit to the committee the following statement : Business of a 
 very urgent nature, affecting the interests of others, which I 
 should be inexcusable for neglecting, prevents me from visiting 
 Albany. I should otherwise have appeared before the com- 
 mittee, and asked them to take my testimony orally, instead of 
 soliciting their indulgence so far as to allow me to present it in 
 the form of a written communication. 
 
 I was appointed a vestryman in the autumn of 1849, and have 
 served in that capacity to the present time. With the exception 
 of ten months in 1854 and 1855, during which I was absent from 
 the country, and occasional temporary absences from the State 
 at other times. I have attended with a good deal of regularity 
 the meetings of the vestry, and have taken a somewhat active 
 part in its proceedings, 
 
 I do not propose to trouble the committee with any discussion 
 of the legal rights of the corporation under the original grants, 
 by which it holds its property, or the legislative enactments by 
 which its corporate powers have been confirmed or enlarged. 
 Nor do I intend to offer to the committee any opinion with re- 
 gard to the true interpretation of those enactments or grants. 
 The sole object of this statement, which is made on my own 
 responsibility, is to present such explanations as seem to 
 me necessary to exonerate myself and my associates from 
 charges which have been brought against us by some of the wit- 
 nesses, and which do us, as I conceive, great injustice. 
 
 I beg leave to say further, with perfect respect for the com- 
 mitteee, and the body by which it was appointed, that in pre- 
 senting this statement I have not overlooked the vital relation 
 which an inquiry instituted by one branch of the Legislature, 
 through the action of a committee, into the administration of 
 the internal affairs of a religious corporation, bears to the rights 
 of every ecclesiastical body in the State, I do not admit the 
 existence of such an authority as has been exercised in regard 
 to the body with which I am connected, more especially when 
 carried so far as to solicit ex parte opinions concerning the 
 motives under which individuals may have been supposed to 
 
102 [Senate 
 
 act. And I cannot but think, when the question is deliberately 
 
 considered, that it will be found to possess a most important 
 bearing upon the rights of conscience, which it was one of the 
 leading objects of the Constitution to secure; a question well 
 worthy, under this aspect, of the most serious public regard. 
 If I have chosen to meet, with a reservation of rights, which I 
 deem inviolable, the imputations cast upon me and my asso- 
 ciates, instead of passing them by in silence, it is in order that 
 the minds of the committee, the Legislature, and the community 
 may not be misled by the testimony in which those imputations 
 are contained. 
 
 Soon after my connexion with the vestry commenced, my 
 attention was attracted to the financial condition of the corpo- 
 ration, which seemed to me very unsatisfactory. Its debt 
 amounted to nearly half a million of dollars, and by reason of 
 the large donations it was in the habit of making to other 
 churches its revenue had become inadequate to its expenditures, 
 and the annual deficits were made up by a sale of property. I 
 regarded this practice, though founded upon a generous con- 
 sideration for the wants of other parishes, and a desire to pro- 
 mote the advancement of the interests of the Episcopal church 
 in the city and the State, as opposed to all sound prin- 
 ciples of finance. No fund or endowment can long withstand 
 a regular consumption of its principal. Encumbered as the 
 church property was by leases, it could rarely be sold in any 
 considerable parcels, without serious sacrifice; and it was my 
 opinion that the contributions of the church, instead of being 
 enlarged should be curtailed, that its debt should not be in- 
 creased, that its expenditures should, if possible, be brought within 
 its income, and that its property should, as a general rule, be 
 preserved until the expiration of its leases, when it could be 
 sold without loss; thus leaving the church in condition to carry 
 out with vigor and success the great plan of ministration, which 
 seemed to me to be clearly marked out by changes in progress 
 in the distribution of business and population throughout the 
 city. 
 
 In accordance with these views, when it was decided to build 
 a chapel in the upper part of the city, in order to preserve to 
 
No. 95.] 103 
 
 the church its ancient parishioners, who had removed in large 
 numbers from the neighborhood of Trinity church, and St. 
 Paul's, and St. John's, I introduced a resolution providing that 
 the corporate debt should never exceed the sum of two hundred 
 and fifty thousand dollars beyond the amount of its bonds and 
 mortgages, exclusive of those given by churches. The latter 
 were excepted for the reason that they have never been regarded 
 as an available resource. No interest is collected on them, and 
 they are, in fact, held by the corporation for the purpose of 
 preventing, in case of emergency, the property to which they 
 attach, from being devoted to secular uses. The resolution 
 referred to, after being amended so as to increase the limit of the 
 debt to three hundred thousand dollars, was adopted. 
 
 It is due to entire frankness to say, that I was opposed to the 
 construction of Trinity chapel, believing the private wealth of 
 the district, for which its ministrations were designed, suffi- 
 cient to furnish them without the aid of Trinity church. At 
 the same time, there were arguments in favor of the measure, 
 on the score of justice and practical usefulness, which it was 
 not easy to answer, and solicitations from old and faithful friends 
 of the church, who had removed to the upper part of the city, 
 too earnest and persuasive to be resisted by the vestry, many of 
 whom had been their associates from an early period in life, and 
 who were naturally reluctant to dissolve the connection as they 
 approached its close. 
 
 The measure having been resolved on, the vestry adopted a 
 plan, which the architect estimated to cost forty thousand dol- 
 lars. I urged its adoption, on the ground of its comparatively 
 small cost, and I particularly pressed on the vestry the conside- 
 ration that in the principal parish church enough had been done 
 by them for the embellishment of the architecture of the city. 
 At a subsequent meeting, a majority of the vestry, deeming the 
 proposed edifice too small, or perhaps too plain for the position 
 it was to occupy, adopted another plan, estimated by the archi- 
 tect to cost seventy-nine thousand dollars. It was never intended 
 by the vestry to exceed that sum. But those who have had any 
 
104 [Senate 
 
 experience in building churches, know not only how little confi- 
 dence is to be placed in such estimates, but how difficult it is to 
 adhere to original designs; and they will be disposed to consider 
 the vestry, who ultimately found themselves involved, greatly 
 to their disappointment and annoyance, in an expenditure of 
 two hundred and thirty thousand dollars, for the chapel and 
 site, as objects of sympathy rather than censure. 
 
 This unlooked for expenditure, and the continued annual 
 contributions to other parishes, which the vestry were unwilling 
 to abridge, have carried the corporate debt up to the enormous 
 sum of six hundred and sixty-eight thousand dollars; exceeding, 
 by the sum of $469,000, its available bonds and mortgages. 
 
 It is well known that the greater part of the city below Cham- 
 bers-street is devoted to purposes of business, and that private 
 dwellings have given place to stores and warehouses. The 
 wealthy portion of the population has gone to the upper dis- 
 tricts, and most of the churches of air denominations have 
 followed them. The North Dutch, which is still engaged in 
 useful spiritual labors in the neighborhood of St. Paul's; the 
 Methodist church in John-street, unhappily rent by internal 
 strife; and St. Peter's, a Roman Catholic church on Barclay- 
 street, still maintain their ground. With these exceptions, Trinity 
 church, St. Paul's and the church in Beekman-street, formerly 
 St. George's, purchased and now entirely supported by Trinity, 
 stand alone in this great deserted field of labor. The same pro- 
 cess is going on above Chambers -street; and in a few years there 
 will, in all probability, be no churches below Canal-street, but 
 those of Trinity parish. Notwithstanding this exodus of wealth j 
 a vast population, the inhabitants, in great part, of alleys, gar- 
 rets and cellars, estimated to exceed one hundred and twenty 
 thousand souls, occupy the field.it has abandoned; and if Trinity 
 church had followed the same instincts, which have drawn off 
 the other religious societies of the city to its more attractive 
 districts, if she also had abandoned to their fate the poor and 
 necessitous, whom wealth and fashion have bequeathed to her, 
 the lower part of the city would have presented an example of 
 religious destitution unparalleled in the history of Christian 
 civilization. 
 
No. 95.J 
 
 105 
 
 It was in view of this great change in the condition of the 
 population of the city that I introduced into the vestry on the 
 10th April, 185 the following resolutions: 
 
 Resolved, That the standing committee be instructed to report 
 a plan by which the expenditures of the corporation shall be 
 limited to its income. 
 
 Resolved, That the said committee be instructed to inquire 
 into the expediency of making the seats in Trinity Church and 
 in St. Paul's and St. John's chapels free. 
 
 Resolved, That the said committee be instructed to inquire into 
 the expediency of establishing free schools in connexion with 
 Trinity Church and its chapels. 
 
 Resolved, That the said committee be instructed to inquire 
 into the expediency of devoting the funds of the corporation, as 
 far as may be practicable, after making provision for the sup- 
 port of the new chapel in 25th-street, to the education and reli- 
 gious instruction of the poor of the city. 
 
 The last resolution, as originally presented, was confined to 
 the poor of the city below Canal-street, and, on the suggestion of 
 a member of the vestry, it was, in view of future contingen- 
 cies, amended so as to embrace the whole city. 
 
 This is the plan which, nearly four years ago, I deemed it my 
 duty to bring before the vestry. It was supported by a some- 
 what labored argument, which was not committed to paper, and 
 which I will not tax the patience of the committee by attempt- 
 ing to recall to remembrance. I trust, indeed, that no such ex- 
 position is necessary, and that the resolutions sufficiently 
 explain their purpose. Their design was to rescue the lower 
 part of the city — that portion which has not only an im- 
 mense body of resident poor, but which receives into its 
 bosom the geater part of the destitute, who seek a refuge here 
 from hardship in other countries — to rescue this combined mass 
 of permanent and temporary indigence from the utter spiritual 
 abandonment with which it was threatened by the removal of 
 those to whose wealth and liberality it had been accustomed to 
 
106 
 
 [Senate 
 
 look for sympathy and pecuniary aid, to more congenial districts. 
 The plan comprehended not only the spiritual instruction of the 
 adult inhabitants of this deserted district — once the seat of near- 
 ly all the wealth of the city — but the education of their chil- 
 dren, and, to the extent of the means of the corporation, a min- 
 istration to their temporal wants. Trinity Church, with its 
 endowments, fortunately growing more valuable with the pro- 
 gress of the city, was to stand in the place of the individual opu- 
 lence, which has fled from a district where its tastes could no 
 longer find suitable fields for indulgence, and established itself 
 in others, where it has rivaled Genoa in its streets of palaces, 
 and where in all its appointments and manifestations of indoor 
 and outdoor life, there is a concentration of refinement, luxury 
 and splendor unequalled, excepting by a few of the great capi- 
 tals of Europe. 
 
 It is possible that I may have looked upon this plan with that 
 undue partiality which individuals are apt to feel for sugges- 
 tions originating with themselves. But it has seemed to me to 
 have been among the designs of Providence that Trinity Church 
 should have been planted in this great district, ready, with her 
 ample endowments, to make provision, when the emergency 
 should arrive, for those whom individual wealth has left upon 
 her hands. I hold this to be the great mission of Trinity Church, 
 and I have pressed on the vestry, on all proper occasions, the 
 duty of preparing for it, and of commencing the work with the 
 utmost diligence. Though the plan has not been formally 
 adopted, it has been practicilly acted on; and it is due to my 
 associates in the vestry to say, that they have responded to all ap- 
 peals in behalf of the destitute districts below Canal-street, by as 
 liberal an expenditure as the income of the corporation, crippled 
 by a heavy debt, and burdened by large annual contributions to 
 other churches, has admitted. The clerical force of the parish has 
 been nearly doubled; the Sunday schools have greatly enlarged; 
 parish schools for the gratuitous education of children have been 
 established; by far the greater part of the pews in Trinity Church, 
 one hundred and four out of one hundred and forty -four in St. 
 Paul's, and a large number in St. John's, have been made free; 
 
No. 95.] 
 
 107 
 
 efforts have been put forth to bring into the church those, who 
 have not been accustomed to attend any religious worship; 
 Trinity Church is opened twice every day throughout the year, 
 for divine service; a mission office has been established to re- 
 ceive applications for aid; lay visitors are employed to seek out 
 want and relieve it; missionary agencies have been instituted in 
 connection with the Commissioners of Emigration; the whole 
 lower part of the city has been virtually made a field of mis- 
 sionary labor; and a degree of energy has been infused into the 
 ministrations of the churchy temporal and spiritual, which 
 compensates, in a great degree, for the lost support of the 
 religious societies removed to other districts. In the midst of 
 all this earnest effort, with five of her clergy residing within 
 this neglected field of labor, conversant with little else than 
 its destitution, and devoting themselves to the relief of its 
 wants, Trinity Church finds herself assailed, as faithless to her 
 trust, by those, for the most part, whose lives are passed amid 
 the social amenities of the upper districts, and in an atmosphere 
 redolent of indulgence and luxurious ease. 
 
 It was not supposed by me, when this plan was brought for- 
 ward, that it could be fully carried out, until a considerable 
 portion of the leased property of the church should become 
 available for the purpose. It was only expected that a begin- 
 ning should be made, and that the plan, in its great outlines, 
 should have a practical adoption. However earnest the desire 
 to put it in operation at an earlier period, the unexpected aug- 
 mentation of her debt, not only renders such a desire hopeless, 
 but manifests that it may be even further postponed, or pos- 
 sibly defeated, without a prudent husbandry of her resources. 
 
 For the better illustration of this point, I annex a statement 
 of the revenue and ordinary expenditures of the corporation, for 
 the year ending the 30th April, 1856. 
 
 Revenue. 
 
 1. From ground rents of real estate 
 
 2. " pew rents 
 
 3. " interest on bonds and mortgages 
 
 4. " Trinity Church Cemetery 
 
 $67,359 53 
 6,998 50 
 13,259 40 
 4,155 92 
 
 $91,773 36 
 
108 
 
 [Senate 
 
 Expenditures. 
 
 1. Parish expenditures, including, (besides those obviously 
 such) charges upon, and expenses of management and care of 
 the property of the church, necessary diocesan expenses, 
 and annuities to families of deceased clergymen, or to officers 
 of the parish, $71,344 22 
 
 2. Interest on debt, 36,522 15 
 
 3. Allowances, donations, and loans to other 
 churches, 32,052 42 
 
 $139,918 79 
 
 Deduct revenue, 91,773 36 
 
 And there is a deficit of $48,145 43 
 
 for the year ending 30th April, 1856. 
 
 The receipts and expenditures for the year ending 30th April, 
 1857 were estimated on 1st May last, at $40,638.66. The grants 
 actually made by the corporation, to clergymen and churches to 
 be paid during the year, in addition to the regular allowances, 
 amount to $11,640, and the appropriations for building school- 
 houses, and renovating and enlarging St John's chapel to $28,- 
 
 000, making together $39,640 00 
 
 Deduct cash on hand 1st May, 1856, 10,016 38 
 
 $29,623 62 
 
 Add estimated deficiency, 40,638 66 
 
 And there will be a deficit of 70,262,28 
 
 for the year ending the 30th April, 1857. 
 
 This defiicit can only be made by selling real estate. The 
 deficits for the last ten years, exceed two hundred and seventy 
 thousand dollars, and the Corporation has provided for them, 
 by selling lots, and applying the proceeds to the augmentation 
 of her insufficient income. While she is assailed as niggardly 
 in her donations, and as engaged in a systematic accumulation 
 of her capital, she has in fact, for years, been selling her real 
 estate, and meeting w T ith the proceeds, the pressing demands on 
 her, a large portion of which, have grown out of her contribu- 
 tions for the support of other churches. 
 
No. 95.] 
 
 109 
 
 The estimated expenditure of the present year continued till 
 1862, would consume so much of the Lispenard lease, which be- 
 comes disencumbered in that year and embraces a large and 
 valuable part of her real estate, as to leave her a balance insuf- 
 
 ficient to pay her debt, which is now §668,813 00 
 
 This debt may be reduced by mortgages 199,469 00 
 
 To the sum of , 469,344 00 
 
 Add deficits of $70,278.66 for five years, 351,311 40 
 
 And there will be the sum of $820,655 40 
 
 to be provided for by sales of real estate ; a sum exceeding the 
 highest estimate in the report of the committee of the value of 
 the Lispenard lease; and unless the prices of real estate become 
 greatly enhanced during the next five years, nothing will remain 
 of the lease referred to, after discharging the pecuniary obliga- 
 tions above specified, a portion of which must be provided for by 
 sale of other property. 
 
 The expenditures of the parish cannot be materially abridged 
 without prejudice to its interests ; and the vestry are unwilling 
 to reduce the annual allowances to other churches, believing that 
 such a reduction would cause great inconvenience to the 
 recipients, and, in some cases, impair to a serious extent the 
 efficiency of the parishes thus assisted. 
 
 In regard to the necessity of allowing the capital of her en- 
 dowment to be consumed by the current expenses of the church, 
 I have differed in opinion with a majority of the vestry. While 
 they have deplored it and yielded to it as a necessity, I have 
 been in favor of meeting it by retrenchment, and bringing down 
 the expenditure, as nearly as may be, to the standard of the in- 
 come. I have urged this duty on the vestry as one demanded 
 by every maxim of financial prudence, and with the less reluc- 
 tance as the inconvenience to result from it would be of short 
 duration ; for if the real estate disposable in 1862, or the great 
 mass of it, can be kept undiminished until that time, the church 
 will be in a condition to prosecute the great plan of ministra- 
 tion she has entered on, with an efficiency which cannot fail to 
 
110 
 
 [Senate 
 
 produce results of the highest importance to the city and the 
 State. If I have thought the vestry in error in this respects, 
 it is not b "cause I have considered them lacking in liberality, 
 but because they have yielded under impulses highly honorable to 
 their feelings, to an outside pressure for contributions, which, in 
 view of the deep and lasting interests involved in the question, I 
 would have resisted. 
 
 This is, in truth, the only ground of apprehension in regard 
 to the success of the plan of religious instruction for the poor in 
 the lower part of the city. It must utterly fail if Trinity Church , 
 for the purpose of meeting a regular series of annual deficits in 
 her revenue, caused to a great extent by her contributions to 
 other churches, shall consume her real estate ; and for this 
 reason I would incur a temporary inconvenience for the purpose 
 of carrying out a great system, the benefits of which would be 
 incalculable in value and endless in duration. 
 
 To hold her real estate until it is unencumbered and can be sold 
 without sacrifice, is in no just sense, an accumulation of capital. 
 To accumulate, is to augment by a reinvestment of income, or in 
 other words, to convert revenue into principal. If hei income 
 exceeded her necessary expenditures, if, instead of contributing 
 it to the wants of others she were to withhold it, and use it for 
 the augmentation of her capital, she would be fairly obnoxious 
 to the imputation cast upon her. Instead of erring in this di- 
 rection she has, as has been shown, been for a series of years 
 expending large portions of the principal, and mainly for the pur- 
 pose of making donations to other parishes. 
 
 In proof of this position, I submit the following statement of the 
 receipts and expenditures of the corporation for the last 10 years, 
 with the annual deficits of income and the allowances, donations 
 and loans to other churches. I have prepared it from the books of 
 the corporation, and it has been examined and compared by Mr. 
 Dunscombe, the comptroller, and myself, with a general state- 
 ment of the financial afYairs of the church for the same period 
 made by Mr. Roach, an experienced accountant, and I believe 
 it to be in all respects correct. 
 
No. 05.J 111 
 
 Year ending 30th April, \%±7. 
 
 Revenue, $68,498 47 
 
 Expenditure, 94,791 93 
 
 Deficit, $26,293 46 
 
 Allowances to other parishes, $10,825 00 
 
 Donations, 5,134 00 
 
 Loans, 500 00 
 
 Total allowances, &c, $16,559 00 
 
 Year ending SOth April, 1848. 
 
 Revenue, $74,258 54 
 
 Expenditure, 95,984 28 
 
 Deficit, $21,725 74 
 
 Allowances to other parishes, $10,175 00 
 
 Donations, 7,800 50 
 
 Loans, 3,900 00 
 
 Total allowances, &c, $21,875 50 
 
 Year ending 30th April, 1849. 
 
 Revenue, . $78,869 85 
 
 Expenditure, 88,096 79 
 
 Deficit, $9,226 94 
 
 Allowances to other parishes, $12,600 00 
 
 Donations, 4,889 14 
 
 Loans, 3,800 00 
 
 Total allowances, &c $21,289 14 
 
 Year ending 30th April, 1850 
 
 Revenue, $77,799 63 
 
 Expenditure, > 95,741 11 
 
 Deficit, $17,941 48 
 
112 [Senate 
 
 Allowances to other parishes, §13,000 00 
 
 Donations, 4,705 18 
 
 Loans, 12,198 00 
 
 Total allowances, &c $29,903 18 
 
 Year ending 30th Jlpril, 1851. 
 
 Revenue, $75,871 31 
 
 Expenditure, , 100,233 44 
 
 Deficit, $24,362 13 
 
 Allowances to other parishes, $13,683 00 
 
 Donations, 4,488 13 
 
 Loans, 9,377 00 
 
 Total allowances, &c $27,548 13 
 
 Year ending 30th April, 1852. 
 
 Revenue, $77,979 77 
 
 Expenditure, 108,317 39 
 
 Deficit, $30,337 62 
 
 Allowances to other parishes, $14,715 00 
 
 Donations, . 12,806 72 
 
 Loans, . 7,650 00 
 
 Total allowances, &c $35,171 72 
 
 Year ending 30th April , 1853. 
 
 Revenue, $86,073 97 
 
 Expenditure, 110,592 66 
 
 Defiicit, $24,518 69 
 
 Allowances to other parishes,, $16,785 00 
 
 Donations, 9,186 21 
 
 Loans, 7,700 00 
 
 Total allowances, &c $33,671 21 
 
No, 95. J 113 
 
 t 
 
 Year ending 30M April, 1854. 
 
 Revenue, $85,710 53 
 
 Expenditure, , , 137,078 99 
 
 Deficit |51 3 368 46 
 
 Allowances to other parishes, $21,706 00 
 
 Donations, 6,916 26 
 
 Loans, 17,100 00 
 
 Total allowances, fcc $45,722 26 
 
 Year ending 30th ApriL 1855. 
 
 Revenue, $95,195 72 
 
 Expenditure, 114,677 30 
 
 Deficit, $19,677 30 
 
 Allowances to other parishes, $15,058 33 
 
 Donations do 7,290 16 
 
 Loan* do 2,000 00 
 
 Total allowances, &c, $24,348 49 
 
 Year ending oi)th April. 1856. 
 
 Revenue, $91,773 36 
 
 Expenditure, 139,918 79 
 
 Deficit, . $48,145 43 
 
 Allowances to other parishes, $15,500 00 
 
 Donations do 10,552 42 
 
 Loans do 6,000 00 
 
 Total allowances, &c, $32,052 42 
 
 [Senate, No. 95. J * 8 
 
114 
 
 | Senate 
 
 Recapitulation 
 
 Deficits. 
 
 1347, $26,293 46 
 
 1848, 21,725 74 
 
 1849, 9,226 94 
 
 1850, 17,941 48 
 
 1851, 24,362 13 
 
 1852, , . 30,337 62 
 
 1853, 24,518 69 
 
 1854, 51,368 46 
 
 1855, 19,677 30 
 
 1856, 48,145 43 
 
 $273,597 25 
 
 Allowances, <tc. 
 
 $16,559 00 
 21,875 50 
 21,289 14 
 29,903 18 
 27,548 13 
 35,171 72 
 33,671 21 
 45,722 26 
 24,348 49 
 32,052 42 
 
 $288,141 05 
 
 Analysis of Allowances, &>'c. 
 
 Allowances. Donations. Loans. 
 
 1847, $10,825 00 $5,134 00 $600 
 
 10,175 00 7,800 50 3,900 
 
 12,600 00 4,889 14 3,800 
 
 1848, 
 1849, 
 1850, 
 1851, 
 1852. 
 1853, 
 1854, 
 1855, 
 1856, 
 
 13,000 00 
 
 4,705 18 
 
 12,198 
 
 13,683 00 4,488 13 9,377 
 
 14,715 00 12,806 72 7,650 
 
 16,785 00 9,186 21 7,700 
 
 21,706 00 6,916 26 17,100 
 
 15,058 33 7,290 16 2,000 
 
 15,500 00 10,552 42 .... 
 
 6,000 
 
 $144,047 33 
 
 Allowances, 
 
 $73,768 
 
 72 
 
 144,047 
 
 33 
 
 217,816 
 
 05 
 
 70,325 
 
 00 
 
 |288,141 
 
 05 
 
 $70,325 
 
 By this statement, it appears that the deficits of revenue in 
 the last ten years amount to $273,597.35, and the amount given 
 away and contributed to the support of other parishes is 
 $288,141.05, exceeding the aggregate deficit by the sum of 
 
No. 95.] 
 
 115 
 
 $15,573.80: and, as I have already said, the whole deficit of the 
 ten years, incurred for the benefit of others, has been made up 
 by a sale of real estate, and is to that extent, a consumption of 
 principal. 
 
 Several of the witnesses have testified that, in granting aid to 
 other churches, the vestry have acted under the influence of 
 party-feeling, refusing assistance to those who differ with them 
 in opinion, and granting it freely to those whose views are in 
 accordance with their own 
 
 I feel it to be my solemn duty to repel this imputation, by 
 stating my own experience. I have been more than seven years 
 a member of the vestry, and have been on terms of the most 
 unreserved and confidential communication with my associates. 
 I have discussed with them the propriety of granting and declin- 
 ing applications for aid, not only at nearly all the meetings of 
 the vestry, but in many cases in private interviews; and no 
 reference has ever been made by me or by any one of them, at 
 any meeting, official or private, to the party views of any of the 
 rectors, or religious societies presenting such applications. The 
 party divisions, which have existed for several years in the Epis- 
 copal church, and which have not only impaired its capacity for 
 doing good, but dishonored those on both sides who have been 
 active in keeping them alive, have never been a subject of dis- 
 cussion at any meeting of the vestry which I have attended; nor 
 have they been alluded to in connexion with applications for 
 aid. I have taken a deep interest in several applications myself, 
 and have, perhaps, had some influence in securing grants of 
 money to the applicants, and in no instance have I inquired 
 what were the particular views of the rector of the parish to 
 which they belonged. I do not even know to this day whether 
 they are high church or low church. The only inquiries ever 
 made were in regard to their pecuniary and social condition and 
 their need of assistance ; and these considerations, together with 
 the ability of Trinity Church at the time to make the grants 
 asked for, and the probability that the grants would be effective 
 for the objects in view, have been the only ones which have 
 guided me in my votes. I believe the other members of the 
 
116 
 
 [Senate 
 
 vestry have been equally free from the influence of party 
 motives. My belief is founded upon my knowledge of them as 
 enlightened, conscientious, and liberal men, and upon all they 
 have said and done in my presence through a familiar associa- 
 tion of seven years. I cannot be supposed to have been deceived 
 in regard to their principles of action, but upon the hypothesis 
 of a depth of dissimulation on their part and an obtuseness of 
 perception on my own, too gross for the largest credulity. 
 
 I can say with the same confidence, that I do not believe those 
 who have the management of the affairs of Trinity Church, have 
 sought, during the period of my connection with them, a period 
 of a good deal of excitement, to influence rectors or parishes on 
 any question in the diocese through the instrumentality of her 
 donations. It is due to others to add, that I have for several 
 years attended the conventions of the diocese and become ac- 
 quainted with a large number of the clergy, I have rarely 
 met a more intelligent or independent body of men ; and I 
 regard the intimation that they would be governed in the doc- 
 trines they teach or in the oflicial acts they have to perform, by 
 considerations arising out of the pecuniary aid their parishes may 
 have received from Trinity Church, as alike ungenerous and 
 unjust. In a word, I consider all these imputations of influence 
 on the one hand and of subserviency on the other, as the offspring 
 of mere groundless suspicion ; and they are in some instances so 
 loosely hazarded, as to make it the part of charity to refer them 
 to the same narrow and distempered views of duty, which are 
 falsely imputed to the vestry of Trinity. 
 
 I have thus laid before the committee, with entire frankness, 
 d statement of my connection with Trinity Church, and the part 
 I have borne in the management of her financial affairs, and the 
 great scheme of religious and temporal ministration, which I 
 desire to see carried out under her auspices and through the aid 
 of her endowments, in the lower districts of the city. I do not 
 believe the importance of giving effect to this plan can be over- 
 stated. The funds of Trinity Church are the only resource for 
 accomplishing it ; she must execute it or it will fall to the 
 ground, and the district in which three of her church edifices 
 
No. 95.] 
 
 117 
 
 stand, become nearly desolate for all spiritual purposes. The 
 prosperity of the city is deeply involved in it; destitution, tem- 
 poral and spiritual, goes hand in hand with crime ; and when even 
 now the spirit of acquisitiveness which is characteristic of the 
 age and has become its greatest scourge, is dishonoring it by 
 forgeries the most bare-faced and staining it by murders the 
 most foul, what shall be our social condition if, in a large por- 
 tion of the city, destitution and spiritual neglect shall combine 
 with cupidity, to arm the hand of violence and stimulate it to 
 still grosser outrage. What higher office can Trinity Church 
 fulfill, what higher benefit can she confer on the classes which 
 have the deepest stake in the security of property and life, than 
 by devoting herself, as she is now doing, to make the lessons 
 of religious and social duty familiar to those who, under the 
 pressure of their physical wants, have the strongest temptation 
 to forget them ? 
 
 In the upper districts the possessors of nearly the whole 
 private wealth of the city have become domesticated. There 
 is more than one congregation, the individual possessions of 
 which are believed to exceed in value, with the largest esti- 
 mate ever put on it, the entire property Trinity Church holds, 
 for the support of her four congregations. Those, whom fortune 
 has thus overburdened with her gifts, should be willing to leave 
 unimpaired, the endowments of Trinity Church, that she may 
 make suitable provision for the poor, whom they have left to 
 her care; and, whatever may be the narrowness of spirit, which 
 presides over particular circles, no doubt is entertained, of the 
 generous and catholic feeling which pervades the great body of 
 the opulent classes. No city has more cause to be thankful for 
 the munificence with which some of her richest men have con- 
 tributed to the great objects of social improvement within her 
 limits : and it is most gratifying to add, that in more than one 
 instance, the wealth which exists in the largest masses, has been 
 poured out with the noblest profession, to build up literary and 
 charitable institutions for the common benefit. To such a spirit 
 of munificence, no appeal to relieve the destitution which hangs 
 upon the outskirts of the upper districts, need be addressed in 
 
118 
 
 | Senate 
 
 vain. If among those, to whom providence has committed the 
 spiritual guidance of these favored classes, there are any, who 
 seek to compel Trinity Church to scatter her endowments broad- 
 cast, over the city, and thus disqualify herself for the great work 
 of charity devolved on her, in the district, in which her lot has 
 been cast ; it there are any, who are engaged in inculcating an 
 antiphonal beneficence, the utterances of which, are to be given 
 only in response to those of Trinity, it is suggested, with the 
 profoundest deference, whether a nobler field for the exercise of 
 their influence, does not lie directly before them. Whether the 
 great ends of their calling, will not be better subserved by la- 
 boring to infuse into surrounding atmospheres, over-cast with 
 penury and want, some of the golden light, which irradiates 
 their own. 
 
 The State, nay, the whole country, has a deep interest in 
 this question. The city of New-York, embodying as she does, to 
 a great extent, the commercial and financial power of the Union, 
 must exert a sensible influence upon the moral and intellectual 
 character of all, with whom she is brought into association. 
 The slightest agitations on her surface, undulate in all directions 
 to the gTeat circumference, of which she is the centre. On Tri 
 nity Church are devolved, in the order of events, the spiritual 
 instruction and guidance of the district, by which she is brought 
 most directly into contact with all that lies beyond her limits. 
 If this duty is not faithfully performed, no voice should be 
 raised in palliation of the delinquency. On the other hand, if 
 any of those, who have withdrawn from this part of the city, 
 the wealth, which Providence has, in such disproportion, 
 bestowed on them, shall seek to deprive the destitute, when 
 they have left behind, of their sole resource for spiritual in- 
 struction and the alleviation of their temporal wants ; if they 
 shall succeed by mis-stating the condition, and unjustly im- 
 peaching the motives of Trinity Church, in defeating her efforts 
 to carry out the great system of labor with which she is occu- 
 pied, they will incur the gravest and the most odious of all re- 
 sponsibilities, that of consigning one of the most important dis- 
 tricts in the emporium of the Union, to an intellectual and spi- 
 rifeial death, 
 
No. 95. j 
 
 119 
 
 By the Senate committee : 
 
 Q. Were not Mr. Curtiss and Mr. Wolf in the vestry of Trinity 
 Church ? A. I think that Mr. Wolf ceased to be a member of 
 the vestry before I became a member of it. Mr. Curtiss is now 
 a member of the vestry. 
 
 Q. Would not they be as likely to understand the affairs of 
 the vestry as other members of it ? I think they have the same 
 opportunities that other members of the vestry have. 
 
 Q. Do you or do you not know that the church reported in 
 1854, the church mortgages as part of her capital? A. I do 
 not know; as I have stated in my communication, I was out of 
 the country during part of the years 1854-55. 
 
 Q. Are there not free schools provided in New- York for all 
 classes ? A.I understand there are, by the State. 
 
 Q. If the vestry of Trinity had adopted the first plan proposed 
 for building Trinity chapel, at a cost of $40,000, would not their 
 debt have been now less by nearly $200,000? A. If the plan 
 had been adhered to, and had cost no more than the architect 
 estimated, a much less sum than $230,000 would have been ex- 
 pended on the chapel and site. In the cost of $230,000 is the 
 expense of site. Whether the debt of the corporation would 
 have been less now, of course, I cannot say. 
 
 Q. Do you not consider that the estate of Trinity Church is now 
 of much greater value than at any previous period 1 A. That 
 question I cannot answer. I am not a member of the finance 
 committee, and therefore am not acquainted with the details of 
 
 the value of property. 
 
 Q. Do you or do you not know that there have been applica- 
 tions to the Legislature for the repeal of the law of 1814 ? A. I 
 am not aware of any such application. 
 
 Q. Were you acquainted with the proceedings of the vestry 
 in respect to the valuation of the St. John's Park property ? 
 A. I was not present at the first meeting when that subject was 
 brought belore the vestry, I was present, I think, at the meet 
 
120 
 
 | Senate 
 
 mg at which that subject was discussed. My impression is, that 
 the vestry at first refused to entertain the proposition at all; but 
 at the earnest solicitation of nearly all the owners around the 
 park, they finally agreed to release their interest if they could 
 receive the sum of $400,000. I never understood this to be con- 
 sidered as the value of the property, but rather as the increase 
 of the damage that would be done to Trinity Church by destroy- 
 ing the park. This was my own view of the subject, and I con- 
 sidered the interest of Trinity Church so remote and contingent 
 that I would not have undertaken to put a valuation upon it in 
 money. 
 
 Q. Were you acquainted with the making of the report of 
 Trinity Church, in February, 1856 ? A. No, sir. 1 was out of 
 the State. 
 
 Q. Have you stated in your written testimony what amount 
 Trinity Church pays to Bishop Potter as his salary? A. The 
 amount is embraced in the aggregate expenditure, but is not 
 specified. 
 
 Q. Will you please to state it I A. I think it is $1,600. Mr. 
 Minturn and Mr. Bradish, w r ho were members ot the committee 
 with myself, appointed by the convention of the diocese, for the 
 purpose of apportioning the Bishop's salary among the churches 
 of the diocese, thought Trinity Church should pay a larger sum ; 
 and I think on the ground of her endowment. 
 
 Q. From what you know of the value of real estate in the 
 city of New-York, would you not think that the property of 
 Trinity Church is increasing in value? A. I have no doubt it is.*> 
 
 Q. I perceive by the report of Trinity Church, that the leases 
 of a large number of lots have expired, or are about expiring. 
 I would ask whether it is your opinion the vestry should sell 
 those lots, and pay their debts, or lease them ? A. It is my 
 opinion they should sell the lots and the debt of the corporation 
 be paid. 
 
 Q. Do you think the majority of the vestry agree with you in 
 that opinion ? A. That I cannot say. 
 
No. 95.] 
 
 121 
 
 Q. Is there not, in certain parts of the city of New- York, a 
 great scarcity or want of churches, — I mean in the eastern part 
 of the town, and in the 4th, 6th, 13th and 14th wards ? A. I 
 am not acquainted with the limits of the wards; though I have 
 no special knowledge, I have no doubt churches might be 
 established, with advantage, in many parts of the city. 
 
 Q. After selling sufficient property to pay the present indebt- 
 edness of Trinity Church, in your opinion, should her policy be 
 to retain the balance of her real estate and appropriate only the 
 income of it 1 A. I cannot say that I have had any definite 
 plan with regard to the future. My idea has been that her debt 
 should first be paid; that her property should, as far as practi- 
 cable, be preserved until it could be sold without loss; and that 
 when she has set apart the funds necessary to take care of the 
 lower part of the city, I would be very liberal in donations to 
 other churches, not only of income, but of principal, where it 
 could be done without impairing her own means of usefulness 
 in her particular sphere of duties. 
 
 Q. When the leases expire, could not the property of Trinity 
 Church be made more productive by a sale than by reletting; 
 and would not the sale be more beneficial to the interests of 
 the church and city? A. It is a very large question, and one 
 that I am not prepared to answer at this time. I will add, that 
 I have been in favor of selling her property whenever it could 
 be done advantageously. 
 
 Q. Cannot the property be now sold to advantage, subject to 
 the leases referred to ? A. As a general rule I should think- 
 not; though I have no doubt that some particular pieces of pro- 
 perty or lots may be. 
 
 Q. What do you think of the policy of making some of the 
 large grants to the up town churches, the Annunciation and St. 
 Luke's ? A. I was not at the meetings of the vestry, I think, at 
 which those two grants were made; and I cannot, therefore, 
 speak of the special inducements for making them. 
 
 Q. When acting as a vestryman of Trinity, do you consider 
 yourself acting as a vestryman of Trinity parish only, or as a 
 
122 
 
 I Senate 
 
 trustee for Episcopalians in the city of New- York generally ? 
 A. I consider myself as acting as a trustee for Trinity parish 
 only. 
 
 By counsel for Trinity Church : 
 
 Q. What can you state with regard to the mortgage held by 
 Trinity Church upon Zion church, in Mott-street ? A. My re- 
 collection is that Trinity Church loaned to Zion church, in Mott- 
 street, in 1830, the sum of $7,000. In 1850, on the removal of 
 the church to Murray Hill, Trinity Church transferred the loan 
 of the mortgage to the new church, which was to be built, and 
 remitted the Interest of the old mortgage for the twenty years, 
 which amounted to $9,800. 
 
 Q. Can you tell me whether this (presenting the following 
 paper) is a copy of a resolution from the minutes of the vestry 
 of Trinity church ? A. It is. I compared it with the original 
 minutes. The following is a copy: 
 
 Extract from the Minutes of the Corporation of Trinity Churchy 
 held on the 28th day of March, 1812. 
 
 RESOLUTION. 
 
 Report oj committee on the state of the church: 
 
 It having been represented to this board, that certain persons 
 belonging to Protestant Episcopal congregations in this city, 
 which have been incorporated as separate and distinct from the 
 corporation of Trinity church, and who are not pew holders in 
 Trinity church, or any of its chapels, claim a right to vote at the 
 annual elections for church wardens and vestrymen of Trinity 
 church, Therelore — 
 
 Resolved, As the unanimous sense of this board, that no other 
 persons except inhabitants of the city of New York, who profess 
 themselves members of the Protestant Episcopal church, and 
 hold, occupy or enjoy a pew or seat in Trinity church, or one 
 of its chapels, and regularly pay to the support of the said 
 church, or regularly worshipping therein, shall partake of the 
 holy sacrament of the Lord's Supper, in the said church, or one 
 of its chapels, at least once in every year, are entitled to vote at 
 the said elections. 
 
No. 95. j 
 
 123 
 
 Examination by counsel for Trinity church. — Jo/in R. Living- 
 ston called and sworn : 
 
 Q. How long have you been a vestryman of Trinity church ? 
 A. I was elected, I think, in January, 1847, and have continued 
 to this time. 
 
 Q. What Episcopal churches were there in the city of New- 
 York, independent of Trinity church, prior to 1814, and which 
 of such churches were built by Trinity church ? A. There were 
 nine Episcopal churches, independent of T: : nity and her chap- 
 els; three of which were built by Trinity church. They were 
 St. George's chapel, Grace church and St. Mark's church. 
 
 Q. How has the increase of parishes in the city of New-York, 
 since 1813, compared with the increase of the population of the 
 city? A. In 1814, there were twelve congregations, including 
 those of Trinity parish. In 1847, there w T ere thirty-five congre- 
 gations. In 1857, there are, as appears in evidence, fifty con- 
 gregations. The increase from 1814 to 1847, a term of thirty- 
 three years, was twenty-three congregations. The increase from 
 1847 to 1857, a term of ten years, is fifteen congregations. In 
 1814, the population was 105,000, according to the testimony of 
 Air. Winston. In 1857, the population is said to be about 650,- 
 000. Some of the recently built churches, are very large. I 
 will instance St. George's church, Calvary, Trinity chapel and 
 the church of the Transfiguration. 
 
 Q. Has Trinity Church ever foreclosed any ©f the mortgages 
 received for loans to churches ? A. I am quite sure she never 
 has. 
 
 Q. Will you explain the transactions with regard to the 
 premises of the Protestant Episcopal City Mission Society ? A. 
 In the early days of the City Mission Society, the corporation 
 of Trinity Church determined to make annual appropriations 
 towards the support of the missionaries, in preference to giving 
 land or building churches. They accordingly, in 1832, appro- 
 priated $1,200, and afterwards 1,800 per annum. In the year 
 1837, the society was embarrassed, and obtained from Trinity 
 
124 
 
 | Sen ATi< 
 
 Church a loan of $10,000, secured by 9 mortgage on the two 
 mission churches of the Holy Evangelists in Vandewater-street, 
 and the church of Epiphany in Stanton-street. This was a 
 business transaction and in no sense a gift to the society. In 1844, 
 the Howard Insurance Company foreclosed prior mortgages held 
 by them on the two City Mission churches, and the premises, by 
 an arrangement made by the vestry of Trinity Church, were 
 transferred to the two congregations that had become indepen- 
 dent corporations. The corporation of Trinity Church assumed 
 the payment of £13,000 of the consideration money, the balance 
 I believe was raised by the respective church corporations. In 
 this arrangement, it was necessary to credit the City Mission 
 Society with the residue of the consideration or purchase money, 
 after satisfying prior existing incumbrances on the premises. 
 The amount thus audited is $10,140.51, which amount increased 
 to $13,000, was advanced, by the corporation of Trinity Church, 
 to the two churches in equal amounts, and mortgages given by 
 each of them to the corporation of Trinity Church for the sum 
 of $6,500. It will thus be seen that in this instance the mort- 
 gage to Trinity Church " did tend to secure the permanent use 
 of the Protestant Episcopal church, the buildings and property 
 thus mortgaged. " 
 
 Q. What have you to say with regard to the mortgage on the 
 Yande water-street church I A. When the corporation of Trinity 
 Church had made arrangements for the purchase of St. George's 
 church in Beekman-strest, they received a communication from 
 the vestry ot the church of the Holy Evangelists in Vande water- 
 street, in the 4th ward of the city, stating that two churches so 
 closely together as the Holy Evangelists and St. George's in 
 Beekman-street, having special reference to the benefit of the 
 same class of persons — the poor who attended — would injudi- 
 ciously affect each other, and so weaken both as to be a cause of 
 lasting sorrow. They also stated that their church was in a 
 dilapidated condition, and would require a large expenditure to 
 repair it 5 and besides this, that the location for a church had 
 become the worst in the city. This communication was referred 
 to a special committee on St. George's church, and on their te- 
 oomm end ation, the vestry removed the congregation of the church 
 
No. 95. | 
 
 125 
 
 of the^Holy Evangelists to St. George's church in Beekman-st., 
 and had the property transferred to that corporation. The church 
 in Vandewater-street was then sold by its own vestry, and after 
 paying off all prior incumbrances, the balance of $1,200 was 
 paid over to Trinity corporation, who expended this amount, 
 together with a much larger sum, in preparing St. George's 
 church for their accommodation. 
 
 Q. Do you know how much money the church of St. John the 
 Baptist has received from Trinity Church since its report was 
 made? A. The corporation of St. John the Baptist have 
 recently erected a fine church building in the upper part of the 
 city. Before the church was completed, they became very much 
 embarrassed and applied to Trinity to assume the interest on 
 the sum of $15,000. This matter was referred to the standing 
 committee, who reported adversely to the application. It was 
 considered in the vestry, their report was overruled and the 
 application granted. I will here add that on the same evening? 
 a similar report was made on the application uf the Rev. Mr. 
 Howland ; it having become absolutely necessary to protect the 
 church building of St. John the Baptist, the vestry could not 
 respond at that time to Mr. Howland's application, and referred 
 it back to the same committee for further action. 
 
 Q. What explanation can you give in regard to the grant to 
 St. Jude's Church. A. In 1843, the standing committee made a 
 report on an application of St. Jude's Church for aid, setting 
 forth that the church had no permanent edifice or fixed location, 
 that its present place of worship was in a part of the city sur- 
 rounded by other churches affording ample accommodations for 
 all persons in that vicinity, and recommending on these grounds, 
 and also on the ground of the condition of the finances of the 
 corporation, that the application be not complied with, which 
 was adopted by the vestry. 
 
 Q. Has the amount of annual stipends been reduced ? A. I 
 think not, My impression is that the aggregate amount has 
 been gradually increased each year during the last ten years. 
 There are three instances to my knowledge, where they have 
 
12G 
 
 [Senace 
 
 been entirely dispensed with. St. Thomas' Church, the salary 
 of whose rector is said to be $5000 per annum, St. Bartholo- 
 mew's, and the Church of the Ascension, whose congregations 
 have been equally liberal towards their pastor. These amounts 
 have been transferred to other congregations who were iu need 
 of them. 
 
 Q. What effect has the disposing of large masses of property 
 by lease, had upon the value of real estate contiguous? A. 
 Some of the finest and most costly private dwellings in the city 
 of New-York are built on the property of the Trustees of the 
 Sailors Snug Harbor, a charitable institution. It is situated in 
 the finest and most fashionable part of the city, and the real 
 estate in the vicinity is materially enhanced in value by the 
 condition of this leasehold property. In another portion of the 
 city, a large leasehold estate on Fourteenth street, extending 
 from University Place to the Sixth Avenue, known as the 
 Shiugler lease, is covered with similar fine dwellings, and the 
 property in the neighborhood is of the most valuable in the city. 
 The same is also true of the leased property of Columbia Col- 
 lege, which was derived from Trinity Church ; and the church's 
 leased property in the lower part of the city has always been 
 well improved and fine buildings erected upon it. 
 
 Q. Is it true, as stated in the report of the committee, foot of 
 page 16, that Col. Troop's pamphlet was an inducement to the 
 Legislature to pass the act of 1814 ? A. It cannot be true, from 
 the fact that the act was passed on the 2d of April, 1813, and 
 the pamphlet bears date the 6th of September following. 
 
 Q. What have you to say as to the result of the policy of the 
 vestry, in granting money instead of lots 1 A. I desire to con- 
 trast the result of the policy adopted prior and since the year 
 1814. Since the year 1814, the policy of Trinity Church has 
 been to grant to churches, institutions of charity, and learning, 
 money instead of lots. Besides having built St. George's, Grace 
 and St. Mary's churches, and St. John's and St. Paul's chapels? 
 this corporation have aided in this State about 201 churches — 71 
 in western New-York, 41 in the city of New-York and 89 in other 
 parts of this diocese. Hobart College, at Geneva, has been made 
 
No. 95. J 
 
 127 
 
 free by her means ; the General Theological Seminary and the 
 Education and Missionary Fund aided ; appropriations have been 
 made to foreign, home and city missions of our church ; an Epis- 
 copal residence has been purchased, and the Episcopal fund 
 largely increased ; annuities have been made to the lamilies of 
 deceased clergymen ; the aged and infirm of the clergy have been 
 assisted, and monuments have been erected to worth, valor and 
 patriotism. These are some of the advantages obtained, and 
 benefits derived from the proceeds of the sale of 1059 lots. It 
 is respectfully submitted that they will compare favorably, in 
 value and usefulness, with the former policy of the vestry, of 
 granting a large number of lots to a few favored churches and 
 institutions. 
 
 Q. Has Trinity Church, in your opinion, done her utmost to 
 make the capital of her property available for religious purposes^ 
 &c. ? A. My answer is, that she has endeavored to do her best 
 in the exercise of an honest judgment 
 
 Q. Is there any obstacle to the collection of church mortgages 
 if the vestry are so disposed 1 A. I think there is, the great 
 obstacle of good, faith. 
 
 Q. Are there other standing business committees in the vestry 
 besides the standing committee ? A. There are three standing 
 committees in all • the standing committee proper, which is the 
 finance committee, the committee on supplies and repairs, and 
 the committee on the cemetery ; special committees are fre- 
 quently appointed as occasion may require. 
 
 By the Senate committee 
 
 Q. Will you look at the poll list of 1854, and see how many 
 of them are not connected with Trinity Church as vestrymen? 
 clergymen or officers 1 A. All are corporators of Trinity Church., 
 twelve of the twenty-six are in no manner connected with Trinity 
 Church as vestrymen, clergymen or officers. 
 
 Q. Does not Col. Troop's pamphlet bear date before the law 
 of 1814 was passed? A. Col. Troop's pamphlet bears date the 
 6th of September, 1813. The bill had passed both houses on the 
 
128 
 
 [Senate 
 
 2d of April, 1813, and became a law on the 25th of January, 
 1814. I beg leave to add, Col. Troop states in his pamphlet that 
 two members of the council of revision, were pleased to express 
 a desire that he would furnish them his reasons in support of 
 the bill, and in compliance with this desire, his argument was 
 made. 
 
 Q. Do you know that the churchmen in New- York have ap- 
 plied to have the law of 1814 repealed, in 1846, or at other times'? 
 A. I have reason to believe that from 1814 to 1846, no such 
 application was made, a period of thirty-two years. In 1846 
 and 1847, the Rev. Thomas H. Taylor, Rev. Dr. Anthon, Rev. 
 Jesse Pound, the Hon. Luther Bradish, Robert B. Minturn, Esq., 
 Frederick S. Winston, Esq., Stewart Brown, Esq., John De Wolf, 
 Esq., Stephen Cambreling, Esq., did unite with others, in an ap- 
 plication to the Legislature to repeal the act of 1814. 
 
 Q. Were the church mortgages, as they are called, reported 
 as capital in your report of 1854 ? A. They were reported as 
 church mortgages on which no interest was collected. If they 
 had not been reported as property, it might have been difficult 
 to protect the churches for whose benefit they were taken. 
 
 Q Why then should they not have been reported in 1856 ? 
 A. They having been reported once, it would answer that pur- 
 pose, and they were not asked for. 
 
 Q. You say in your report, on page 8, that you have endea- 
 vored to show the condition of the capital of Trinity church, 
 and have omitted to mention these mortgages. What is your 
 explanation of this ? A.I do not consider these mortgages any 
 portion of the available capital of Trinity church. 
 
 Q. I ask you, if they are not capital ? A. I answer that that 
 is a matter of opinion; I think not. 
 
 Q. Was not one of the reasons for refusing aid to St. Matthew's 
 church alleged to be, that her language was not respectful 1 A. 
 No sir, not that I have heard of, 
 
No. 95.] 
 
 129 
 
 Q. Was not the language of the application, considered by 
 the vestry, imperative, and spoken of as being so ? I think it 
 was. 
 
 Q. Is not the real estate of Trinity church worth more now 
 than at any former period ? A. I think it is. 
 
 Q. What is the character of the improvements on most of the 
 leased property of Trinity church? A. The property in the 
 lower part of the city is very well improved; some of the local- 
 ities in the upper part are well improved, and others indiffer- 
 ently so. This depends very much upon the situation. 
 
 Q. Are not most of the buildings in the upper part of the 
 city very poor and inferior? A. Many of the buildings were 
 erected a long time ago, and do not compare favorably with such 
 as are now built. 
 
 Q. You spoke of three churches from which stipends were taken 
 away altogether; are not all three such as are called " low" 
 churches? A. Stipends were given by the corporation of Tri- 
 nity church, with the intention of providing for, or contributing 
 towards the salary of the minister; and in all cases where the 
 congregations are sufficiently wealthy to provide liberally for 
 their rectors, the vestry of Trinity church has considered it a 
 duty to withdraw the stipends, without reference to the party 
 character of the congregations, or rector. The three churches 
 named in the question, are supposed to belong to what is called 
 the " low" church party. 
 
 Adjourned to 10 A. M., to-morrow. 
 
 Tuesday, Feb. 24, 1857. 
 Present — The Senate committee, Messrs. Spencer Noxon, and 
 Ramsey. Counsel as before. 
 
 This meeting of the committee was mainly devoted to making 
 such verbal alterations in the testimony as had been deemed 
 necessary by the counsel for Trinity Church to fully present the 
 
 [Senate, No. 95. j 
 
 9 
 
130 
 
 [Senate 
 
 meaning of the several witnesses testifying. The several altera- 
 tions were assented to by the committee. 
 
 Wednesday, February 25. 
 Richard H. Ogden called and sworn : 
 
 Q. Are you the clerk of the vestry of Trinity Church ? A. Yes, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. Have you made search for the poll list of voters at the 
 vestry elections held prior to 1814 ? A. I have made search and 
 cannot find any. I have no means of ascertaining whether they 
 were preserved at as early a date as that. 
 
 By the committee : 
 
 Q. Have you made search since 1814 ? A. I have. 
 
 Q. Do you find any lists on file? A. None prior to 1846. 
 
 William S. Be Zeng, called and sworn : 
 
 Q. As agent of Trinity Church, did you apply to the commit- 
 tee, in the city of New- York, for a copy of the testimony taken 
 by them, after the testimony was closed? A. I was requested 
 by Mr. Dunscomb, the Comptroller, to apply for a copy 
 about the time the committee were done taking testimo- 
 ny. After the request was made, I saw both Mr. Noxon and 
 Mr. Ramsey, and asked them for a copy of the testimony. They 
 said there was no objection to our having a copy. I then went 
 to the clerk of the committee and asked him if he would furnish 
 a copy, we paying for it. He declined; said he could not do it 
 without the authority of Mr. Spencer. I then saw Mr. Spencer, 
 and Mr. Spencer said he could not authorise it, and thought it 
 would be improper'until the committee should make a report. I 
 
 told Mr. Spencer if a copy could be made we would pay for it. 
 
 \ 
 
 The counsel for Trinity Church here produced an affidavit of 
 service of a subpcena to appear and testify, upon the Rev. Thos. 
 H. Taylor, D. D., Rev. Henry Anthon, D. D., Luther Bradish, 
 and Stewart Brown, on the 9th day of February, instant, and that 
 they failed to appear. 
 
No. 95.J 
 
 131 
 
 Counsel for church here closed. 
 
 The chairman of the committee presented the following let- 
 ters from persons who had been subpoenaed, but had failed to 
 attend : 
 
 New-York, Feb. 10, 1857. 
 
 To the Hon. Mark Spencer, James Noxon and J. H. Ramsey, 
 
 Committee, #c, Albany. 
 Sirs, — At 5 o'clock this evening, I received your summons in 
 the matter of Trinity Church, requiring me to attend before you 
 on the 12th day of Feb. inst., at 9 o'clock a.m., at the rooms of 
 the committee in the Capitol in the city of Albany, to testify 
 and give evidence before you in relation to the matters referred 
 to you. 
 
 While I entertain the highest respect for your committee, and 
 for the authority by which you act, yet in the^present condition 
 of the communications between this city and Albany, the 
 inclemency of the season, my advanced age, and the state of my 
 health, which is not good, a compliance with the requirements of 
 your summons would be extremely difficult, if not quite imprac- 
 ticable. I trust, therefore, that it may not be deemed, under 
 the circumstances, an unreasonable indulgence, w r hen I respect- 
 fully ask to be excused from a personal attendance before your 
 committee ; and in lieu thereof to be permitted to answer on 
 paper any cross or explanatory interrogatories which any party 
 interested may desire to put to me. This I shall cheerfully do, 
 even although it may involve a greater labor than a personal 
 examination under the circumstances would do. 
 
 Under present circumstances were I, at every inconvenience 
 and risk, to attempt a compliance with the requirement of your 
 summons, it would be impossible for me to attend before you in 
 person at the time indicated by you. 1 venture, therefore, 
 respectfully but confidently to hope that the indulgence I ask in 
 this case maybe accorded by the committee, In which hope I 
 remain, sirs, with the highest respect, 
 
 Your obedient servant, 
 
 L. BRADISH, 
 
132 
 
 [Senate 
 
 New- York, Feb. llfA, 1857. 
 
 Hon. Mark Spencer: 
 
 Dear Sir — I received yesterday afternoon a summons to attend 
 before the committee, of which you are the chairman, on the 
 12th inst., to give evidence in relation to the matter of Trinity 
 Church. Having but just been relieved from a severe cold, I 
 feel a great reluctance, especially at this season, and in the 
 present state of the roads, to encounter the fatigue and exposure 
 of a journey to Albany. I beg leave, therefore, respectfully to 
 place my case before your committee, in the hope that they will 
 excuse me from attending; and I do so with the less hestitation, 
 as my evidence was given in full when the committee were in 
 session in this city. Most respectfully yours, 
 
 H. ANTHON. 
 
 804 Broadway, New- York, ) 
 February 16, 1857. \ 
 
 Hon. Mark Spencer, Chairman, ftc % : 
 
 My Dear Sir — Absence from home, and a pressure of unavoid- 
 able engagements, have prevented me from making an earlier 
 acknowledgment of the receipt of a summons from the special 
 committee of the Senate, in the matter of Trinity Church, requir- 
 ing me to attend and give evidence before the committee on the 
 12th inst. With the most perfect respect for the committee, 
 and with an earnest desire to meet all their requirements, it was 
 yet entirely out of my power to attend at Albany as a witness at 
 the time specified. 
 
 While I thus freely and sincerely express my respect for your 
 committee, and my regret at not being permitted to aid them as 
 I best could in their important labors, yet you must permit me 
 to say, Mr. Chairman, that none of this respect, and nothing of 
 this regret is intended by me, to extend to any hired agents of 
 Trinity, at whose instance, as I take it, the summons now be- 
 fore me was issued. 
 
 During the meetings of your committee in this city every 
 opportunity was afforded to the corporation of Trinity Church, 
 either to summon witnesses or to propose cross-interrogatories to 
 
No. 95.] 
 
 133 
 
 every witness before your committee ; and if in their supercili- 
 ousness or reckless negligence they did not avail themselves of 
 their privilege, the consequences must rest upon themselves. 
 The vexatious course they are now pursuing, of attempting to 
 drag gentlemen from their business and their homes at this in- 
 clement season of the year, from whom they well know that 
 they cannot obtain one word of evidence in any way useful to 
 Trinity Church, has no other earthly object than to gain time, 
 and thus to defeat by postponing one of the most salutary mea- 
 sures of reform that has ever claimed the attention of the Legis- 
 lature of the State. 
 
 With my renewed assurance of the most perfect respect for 
 your committee, permit me to subscribe myself, Mr. Chairman, 
 Your friend and obedient servant, 
 Very truly, 
 
 THOMAS HOUSE TAYLOR, 
 Rector of Grace Church in the city of New- York. 
 
 The following letter was presented by the counsel for Trinity 
 corporation, and ordered filed with those previously received. 
 
 u New- York, February 24, 1857. 
 
 Wm. E. Dunscomb, Esq. 
 
 Dear Sir. — I have received your note of yesterday, asking me 
 again to go up to Albany. For myself I cannot see its impor- 
 tance ; and with reference to my answer that I ' have been on 
 a committee to examine the annual report, and examination of 
 the accounts of the comptroller ; they have access to all the 
 books referred to in the annual report, and such only. 5 Ou r 
 committee at this examination called on Mr. Rogers, the clerk, 
 for the books and vouchers, who furnished the same and no 
 others, because no others were called for by the committee ; and 
 that is what I mean by ' and such only.' And by going to 
 Albany I could give no other explanation, and to my mind no 
 other one is required. Did I suppose that I could be of any use to 
 the committee by going up to Albany, I would try to go up, yet, 
 as I wrote Mr. Ogden, it would be at not a little personal incon- 
 venience ; and, therefore, hope that you will excuse me, and 
 oblige 
 
 Very truly yours, 
 
 CYRUS CURTISS .» 
 Adjourned to 10 A. M., Saturday morning. 
 
ERRATA. 
 
 Tt should have been stated in the minutes, page 1. and in subsequent places, that 'Jou- 
 verneur M. Ogden, Esq., attended as one of the counsel for Trinity Church. 
 
 In testimony of Dr. Haight : 
 Page 14, line 2, instead of "4,000 to 4,500," read "40,000 to 50,000." 
 
 In Bishop Potter's testimony : 
 
 Page 24, line 12, instead of "when" read "where." 
 
 " 25, " 3, for "managed" read "management of the;" and on 
 
 " " 5, for "my parish" read "any parish." 
 " 27, " 21, for "intend" read "intended." 
 " 48, " 27, for "sustain" read "establish." 
 " 50," 3, for "practicable" read "practical." 
 
 In Rev. Jesse Pound's testimony : 
 
 Page 30, line 22, and 24, and on page 32, line 21, for "Eastman" read "Eastburn" and 
 on " 31, " 2, read "Shimeal." 
 
 In Dr. Berrian's testimony : 
 Page 39, line 9, for "grants" tead "grant." 
 
 In Bishop De Lancey's testimony : 
 Page 82, line 22, for "expectant" read "expectants." and in 
 
 " 24 and 25, for "practically unacquainted" read "partially acquainted." 
 " 83, " 25, for "dispersing" read "dispensing." 
 
 In Mr. Wm. Moore's testimony : 
 Page 84, line 21, for "De Rhau" read "De Rham." 
 
 In Mr. Verplanck's testimony: 
 
 Page 91, 5th line from bottom, instead of "attempted", &c. f read "have been tempted 
 to enlarge or vary their plans." 
 
 Page 92, 12th line, for "Linsley" read "himself." 
 " 95, 7th " from bottom, for "receives" read "received." 
 "95, 4th te " " for "granted" read "leased." 
 "98, 2d " from top, for "regarded" read "requested." 
 
 In Gen. Dix's testimony : 
 Page 101, line 13, after the word "times" insert a comma instead of a period. 
 " 108, " 14, instead of "receipts and expenditures" read "deficiency." 
 
 " 15, instead of "were" substitute "was." 
 " 120, " 6, instead of "increase" read "measure." 
 
 In Mr. John R. Livingston's testimony: 
 Pag« 126, line 17, for "Shingler" read "Spingler." 
 
ADDITIONAL ERRATA. 
 
 In the testimony of John R. Livingston, page 127, after line 
 14, insert the following question and answer, which have been 
 omitted : 
 
 Q State whether grants have been made in a spirit of partia- 
 lity or partizanship 1 
 
 A. I answer unqualifiedly no, on behalf of myself and asso 
 ciates.